6 24 1541 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5569db19b1d2ecc565dd2dc160d84819.mp4 c0456c423b83c3b2be1ac6ff4a12d9d3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7037b6acd882745e168f3735f9bc50a5.pdf 2a6d9b634a80275bac813c241c78e935 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Ulf Hierlwimmer Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We’re talking today with Dr. Ulf Rainer Hierlwimmer of Holland, Michigan. I guess you go by Ulli most of the time? Veteran: Ulli is what friends call me. Interviewer: Alright. So Ulli, start us off with some background about yourself, and you’ve got an interesting background, and so where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born May 31st, 1945 in what was the Soviet occupied zone of Germany, namely the Eastern Zone. And before we proceed, I will take off my cover, and we will go through my life history as through how I established my Navy career. On May 31st, 1945 there were very few doctors left to deliver me, but an old time OB-GYN gentleman delivered me. I have never met him; I heard his name from mama but never went back - so far - to my birthplace. But, about a year later my mother, as all moms are, very guarding of life, walked with me in a baby carriage, I was in the baby carriage, at age one approximately, to the safety of the West to Augsburg, Bavaria, Western Zone, or West Germany. Interviewer: And did she tell you how she was able to get out of East Germany? (00:02:07) Veteran: She walked. Interviewer: But, I mean, did the Soviets let her out? �Veteran: She ran across a platoon of Soviet soldiers, and they did not harm her, and they didn’t harm me. So, there is an element of compassion even with sometimes so-called “enemies.” And we have to remember that not all people are bad. But she walked about 232 miles and she would stay with farmers and so on along the way, who she didn’t know, but she asked for refuge for the night. Interviewer: Did she tell you how long it took? Veteran: She said it took about 12 to 14 days. She would walk very fast. Pushing me. Interviewer: That’s a reasonable clip to go at. Now where was you father at this time? (00:03:05) Veteran: My father was being released by the Americans in Livorno, Italy because he had been drafted into the German Army as an enlisted person first, and then he was promoted because he had one year of the equivalency of a junior college, and he was going to become a lens crafter for Bausch & Lomb. And well, the German government at that time, the Führer’s government at that time said, “No no, no no no, you are going to be drafted.” And he was drafted as a young man, and he became a Second Lieutenant. And then in 1944 he was promoted to First Lieutenant and he was sent to Italy, northern Italy, and he was captured outside of Florence and taken by convoy. And many other German soldiers were captured, without firing a shot I might add, In 1945. And thank God he did, and he was taken to Livorno which is now Camp Radley for NATO in Livorno. And he could speak some English, and so what the commanding officer was interested in, some of these German soldiers that could speak English, because they needed German translators to set up some stability in the Western Zone. Especially in Bavaria, where my father hails from. Anyway, with a letter of recommendation after he was released after nine �months in the POW camp, he went back to his home city of Augsburg, where there was a huge U.S. Army base. Interviewer: Couple questions here, one of them is, he’s from Augsburg in Bavaria, why were you born in East Germany? Veteran: Yes, he and my mother met when he was retreating out of Russia. They met, and they met in her home area, which was Gotha, Thuringian. Interviewer: So they meet after he was in the Army, then? Veteran: Yes, he was in the Army. Right. Interviewer: So anyway, so that was her home area, since he’s not there, she’s not going to be where he is. Okay that makes sense. Alright. When did he get back to Augsburg? (00:06:03) Veteran: He got back to Augsburg in 1946 in January or February of 1946, and he let somehow be known through the Americans that he was a translator at the U.S. Army base back in Augsburg and that he was safe and “Can you try to join me?” through channels which I don’t really know about. He got that message through to mama. Which is amazing. Interviewer: Legally she should have been able to go, but the Soviet and East German authorities were not always interested in that. Veteran: No, no. That’s the interesting thing about the German personality. The German personality is which way does the flag blow; you know? Which way does the wind blow? I hate to say it that way, but it’s true. The East Germans became better communists with their doctrine �than even the Soviets. And so, the Soviets always had to keep a firm handle in overseeing the East German authorities because they were a little bit tenacious, very tenacious. Interviewer: Alright. So basically, she’s able to come and she can join your father, he’s already there, he’s got a job. Veteran: He’s got a job as a translator. Interviewer: Alright, and then how long did they wind up staying in Germany? (00:07:39) Veteran: In Germany til April, late April 1953, my father was able to get to - he met a major in the U.S. Army that he had translated for. This major said, “I have parents in Virginia, and they live in Falls Church, but they have a 100-acre farm near Warrenton, Virginia, and they need an overseer” and also a worker of course, and my father said “Oh, okay.” And I’m an only child, so it wasn’t a problem of immigrating, and through the Americans he did get a visa for the three of us and starting May 2nd we traveled by train, late April to the ship in Rotterdam, the M.S. Noordam, which was part of the Holland-America line and I have the original suitcase. I brought my paraphernalia, which I’m so proud of, future generations of Hierlwimmers will I know. Interviewer: Hold that up here. Veteran: That’s the original suitcase. Interviewer: Got the original luggage tag on it. Veteran: Starting May 2nd, 1953. And we were supposed to go for a 9-day journey to the port city of New York. Well, all the berths were filled up, so we had to go to up the Hudson to Hoboken, New Jersey. To that same center, which was the port where that train accident just recently �occurred. I recognized the gates, I said to my wife of 48 years, I said “Patty, I remember those gates.” and I didn’t understand it as an 8-year-old child. And I said, “Why these big gates?” Well, we had to go through customs of course and we had to show the - papa had to show the visas and so on. But I might add, my most historic moment of the voyage was short of New York harbor. That’s the very first time I heard the Star-Spangled Banner being played, as we went past the Statue of Liberty, and different dialects trying to sing the song. I didn’t know the words because I really didn’t speak much English, but I remember that. And to this day when I see the statue in person, I get tears, because America to me is represented one hundred percent by that statue and that’s what we Americans have to think about. All this other thing that’s going on presently just remember the statue and remember who gave it to us as a gift, France. France! Liberty, justice for all, and welcoming, welcoming immigrants. Or welcoming people to this country of ours, this great country of ours. (00:11:12) Interviewer: Why did your parents want to come to the U.S. in the first place? Veteran: More opportunities. 1952, 1953 were bad years in Germany. The Berlin uprising was occurring, Poland was uprising a little bit, Hungary was starting Interviewer: Not yet, but soon. Veteran: Soon. In ‘56 the Hungarians finally did have the uprising and slowly but surely Czechoslovakia and so on, but Berlin started it and the Soviets punished them severely. Interviewer: And it took a little while longer before you get the full economic recovery in West Germany which does eventually happen in the ‘50s. �Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And he’s got-- your father speaks English, he’s got good American connections. So now-Veteran: Before we go on, my father’s-- in 1946 there was no West German currency yet, there was no West German Deutsche Mark. So, my father is paid by the Americans - they could not pay him in U.S. dollars. They paid him in cigarettes. Two cartons of Lucky Strikes per month for translating, and then in ‘47 when the Deutsche Mark came along, he got paid in Deutsche Marks. Interviewer: Okay. So now you actually, you get to Hoboken, get off the ship, go through customs. Now what do you do? Veteran: Then we were picked up in Hoboken by our sponsors, Mr. and Mrs. Chew and-- very nice people, very nice people-- and they drove us from Hoboken, New Jersey. It was probably around noontime and we drove in a big Buick - I had never seen a car like that. And naturally as a young child I was in the back seat, and I almost sank out of appearance you know, in the back seat. And I'm going “My goodness, this is something.” And you drove us to the farm, and the next day papa was not only the overseer of one other worker, but also a worker, he was on the tractor already the next day, on May 12th, 1953. And he was getting paid 25 cents an hour, but it was a start. Interviewer: And he had a place to live. Veteran: And he had a place to live. Mama took care of the farmhouse. (00:13:50) �Interviewer: Alright, so now, what was life like for you there? Is this where you grew up or did you move? Veteran: Oh no no, we moved about nine to ten months later from the farm because the minimum wage, slowly but surely we came to find out, was 75 cents an hour. And I attended Warrenton Public Schools, but I might add this is now 1953, and I attended the white school on top of the hill in Warrenton, Virginia. And the African American school was at the bottom of the hill surrounded by a big fence and so on. And I was put back into first grade. I had been in first grade and second grade in German public school in Augsburg, but make a long story short, one day I got jeered by the first graders, first grade boys, and it was an old World War II thing, “Hotsie, totsie, another newborn Nazi.” So, I got a little bit upset, so I decided to run down to the African American school. The white teacher and the white principal started chasing me and saying, “You cannot play with those folks.” And I asked, “Why not?”, and I knew how to pronounce the W’s. Rather than “Vy not?”, “Why not?” and no answer. And worse yet, the closer I got-- I could run very fast, especially downhill-- the closer I got to the African American school, they waved me off. The teachers and the students on the playground they said, “White boy, we cannot play with you.” And I asked again, “Why not?” and no answer came. And I remember that vividly, and that was, that has been imprinted in my brain for life. The discrimination, the attitude of discrimination hurts everybody, and we must not forget that we cannot divide peoples. Look at what happened in Germany when you isolated groups, and the genocide and what not. But anyway, mama being a tough lady, she tries to find work in Warrenton, Virginia. So, she went first to the white business owners in Warrenton and they would not hire her because it was eight years after World War II. And so, she marched herself into the black, or the African American, “ghetto” part of Warrenton. The first snack bar she came �to, she walked in as a white woman and said, “I need a job.” And the owner said, “Ma’am I can hire you, but do you know what you’re doing?” And she said, “I don’t care.” And he said “Really? You want to work as a waitress?” and she says “Yeah, I need a job.” He hired her on the spot for 50 cents an hour, so they made the minimum wage of 75 cents an hour. Interviewer: I take it this didn’t last too long. (00:17:36) Veteran: No. Like I said, nine to ten months. And my parents accumulated enough savings, they paid for the entire trip. Which was at that time, $500. And that was a lot. That was a lot for the three of us to come over from Germany, or Holland, you know, Rotterdam, to America. And the sponsor insisted, he said, “No, no, no, you keep that money.” My father said no. “Nein.” Not going to do it. So, then he had tied up with a G.I. friend of his that he knew from Augsburg, who lived in Connecticut, near Westport, Connecticut. And this friend helped us get to Connecticut through the Y.M.C.A. in Westport, Connecticut, to a botany professor named Dr. Ken Henderson, who was a botany professor at Yale. But his sideline business was raising 30,000 orchid plants in his private greenhouses, right across the street from Long Island Sound. And my mother became the maid in the household of the Hendersons, and we had a free apartment there, and my father was the orchid tenderer. He and another worker tended 30,000 orchid plants. And we stayed in Westport, Connecticut or Westport area - Fairfield, Connecticut - about two years, because then a recession hit. And he had another G.I. friend in Buffalo, New York. The network of Americans that my father had because of his job as a translator. (00:19:38) Interviewer: So when do you go to Buffalo? �Veteran: Buffalo, 1955. Summer of ‘55 and I started public school there, Public School Number 37, inner-city Buffalo, and we had an apartment at first in Buffalo, near downtown Buffalo. And then one day I was walking to school, I had to walk to P.S. 37. It was about a mile away, and I pass past a house on Elm Street in Buffalo just south of Roswell Park, memorial it was called, Roswell Park Memorial Hospital for Cancer. And I saw this house for sale you know, and I told my parents, this was 1956, I told my parents when I got home and they looked at the house and they said “I think we can afford this house” you know, and that was our first American house that my parents bought. And then after Public School 37-- and I won the sons of the American Revolution medal in eighth grade at Public School 37, I still have it at home here, my children will probably, you know-- but the high school then I started attending was Hutchinson Central Technical High School in Buffalo, but then my father's job with Remington Rand, he was in the microfilm business, because like I said a way long time ago in the interview, that he was a lens crafter so he loved photography, and so microfilm was the data storage system for all businesses, etcetera. Remington Rand transferred him from Buffalo to Detroit. And in Detroit, what was very interesting, this was now 1959, I went to Cass Tech High School, transferred there in electrical electronics, but make a long story short, at age 13 my family doctor became Dr. Raul Torres, who I did not mention until now. Dr. Raul Torres was a captain, medical corps U.S. Army, stationed in Augsburg. When I came along with mom, with mama, my father took me in his arms to aboard the U.S. Army base to Dr. Raul Torres, who he had been translating for also, and said “Can you help my son?” because we had very little nutrition under the Soviets and historically or politically, I can understand it. The Soviets lost ten percent of their population in that horrible war. Revenge was on their minds. Babies were useless, senior citizens were absolutely useless too, and I was sustained, besides God's love and mama’s love, by flour, water, �occasionally some milk, carrots, pureed carrots, carrot juice. A blessing that I’m here. But he looked at me and he had my father explain, “Where has this kid been?” You know. He says, “Well we have to help him.” Age one. And he says “I’m going to plug him into an I.V., he’s dehydrated,” and plugs me into an American I.V. His wife, Dr. Estelle Torres, they were the first married couple to graduate from Wayne State University Medical School in Detroit in 1943, but he had been drafted into the Army, he calls her long distance to Detroit, took him 30 minutes as the history goes, and he says “Estelle, you’ve got to send formula and vitamins for this German infant,” and naturally she’s thinking “What the heck are you doing with a German infant?” And he explained it and he says, “We’ve got to help this infant.” And by God, she would send the materials over to his A.P.O. box. Anyway, slowly but surely, and he left the Army in ‘47 and he and his wife set up a practice in Hamtramck, because she was Polish, he was from Grandville actually, and his father was a family doctor in Grandville. (00:26:06) Interviewer: So, they’re there in the Detroit area. Veteran: Age 13, he becomes my family doctor. At age 16 he pulls me into his private office, and he says to me “you owe” and I thought, you know, the monetary thing. He says, “No no no no no, you owe society.” He didn’t say society, but he says, “You owe” and I said “Okay.” He says, “We’re going to get you into medical school one way or another,” and I said “You are? But I like electrical electronics as Cass Tech High School!” He says, “That’s okay, that’s okay, you’re going to be an engineer for people.” I said “I am? Okay, oh my goodness!” I listened. I listened. Who helped me get into medical school? Dr. Raul Torres. Because his own father was a D.O. His own brother was a D.O. His brother-in-law was a D.O. And the father was deceased, of Dr. Raul Torres, but the two other gentlemen and Dr. Raul Torres, even though he was an M.D., �wrote me nice letters of recommendation and I did get accepted to Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine. (00:26:35) Interviewer: Okay. Now where had you gone to college for undergrad? Veteran: Wayne State University. Interviewer: Okay. And were you still living at home while you were doing that or were you living on campus? Veteran: No, my parents-- my father’s job, he was hired by a competitor named Kodak at that time and they were really big into microfilming, and so what happened, my parents-- my father was transferred to Toronto, Canada, Ontario, Canada, and as a microfilm salesperson and microfilm systems setup in 1965, and it was about that time that the banks were moving out of Montreal, because of the Quebec Separatists Movement, banks would get scared, rightfully so, of little revolutions you know, and so he became sort of the microfilm specialist for the banks and so on. He did very, very, well, my dad. Interviewer: But in the meantime, you’re back here in college. (00:27:44) Veteran: But I started living with friends and so on and then I finally wound up at a fraternity house off-campus at Wayne State University, near the art museum. It was an adventure. It was a medical fraternity, but they rented to pre-med also. So I got the scoop about medical school from them too besides Dr. Raul Torres of course and so on, and so make a long story short, in 1968 I had the interview but from 1967 to 1968 I student taught and taught general science in the inner �city of Detroit, 8th grade, okay, and it was Sherrard Junior High School, and then evening school, I taught at Ford High School, math, because I love math, it's almost a German trait, you know. I made enough money and so on, and in the meantime I had met my future wife in the organic chemistry lab at Wayne State University-- and she was not my lab partner, but I looked at her very eyeing-ly, and I said “Jeez, this lady is on the ball! Pretty and everything, you know. And so, I didn’t have the gumption, you know, the courage to ask her out for a date, but we bumped just serendipitously into each other and I asked her out for a date, and the rest is history, and we got married in 1968 just before medical school started in September. Interviewer: At this point of course, the Vietnam war is in full swing, and the draft is there and you’re certainly eligible for this. Now while you’re in college as an undergraduate it’s a four year deferment, so that’s going to be running out, but you’re heading to medical school. So how did that work? Veteran: That was a draft deferment too. Interviewer: Okay. But was there a catch to that? If you were going to medical school and not being drafted, did Uncle Sam expect you to go into the military? (00:30:06) Veteran: After graduation, yes. Absolutely. They had a program where you could join during medical school, and I did. I did. I joined just before the start of my senior year in medical school as a full commissioned ensign, which would be second lieutenant equivalency, full time. No uniform, just go to school, keep up your grades and then you owe us time. Interviewer: Okay. So when you signed up-- why did you sign up for that? Did you figure you were going to get drafted anyway so you might as well do this? �Veteran: Exactly. Exactly. And I said “I owe this country. I owe this country.” And my wife was in full support of my Navy application and everything and she actually helped fill in the-- she’s much better at filling in applications. I’m the astronaut, and she’s Houston Space Center. Interviewer: So why did you choose the Navy? (00:31:13) Veteran: Because my father-in-law was a chief petty officer during World War II in the Navy, and he got me in touch with Senator Philip Hart and also with his commanding officer who was a rear admiral by that time in Detroit and had been retired of course, and both of those gentlemen wrote me beautiful letters of recommendation to the Navy and my father-in-law helped instigate that. He was a great man. Interviewer: This was kind of a—this is a program that you just don’t sign up for and walk into, you have to be recommended? Veteran: No, you have to be recommended. Interviewer: Ah, okay. Now, when you first go in, before that first year, do they give you any kind of Navy training, or does that come after you graduate from medical school? (00:32:06) Veteran: I hate to say this, there was no Navy training. All I had to do is, the paperwork was done for me at the-- in Chicago itself at the “afee” station, there was the recruiting office upstairs. They filled in all the paperwork, sent it to Great Lakes because that was my “theoretical” duty station. But no, at that time no training other than we did receive a manual in �the mail saying the, you know, the regulations and so on, and thirty days of leave during that senior year pay, full pay, full benefits, even insurance. Health insurance, and life insurance. Interviewer: Well, you were a Navy officer at that point so okay. Alright, so that-- you do that. So that’s your last year, you finish medical school, now what happens to you? (00:33:14) Veteran: Right. Then, I was accepted into Bethesda Naval Hospital because I applied for the internship there and I’ll never forget, I had to be interviewed on a Saturday morning by the internship director who was Captain van Houten, God rest his soul, and I come to find out his brother was a D.O. in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So, I came to find that out later, he told me later. But he interviewed me. He was chief of anesthesiology, he interviewed me on a Saturday morning because I had to call him long distance because I was on a senior student rotation in Detroit at a hospital, and the program director of us medical students, he said “ No, no, you have to stay Friday night,” I mean up to Friday night. I said, “But I have an interview!” So, guess what this young buck and my wife did. I mean we drove through the night, and we changed clothing and so on to appear well in appearance, you know. No uniform, I had no uniform, and he interviews me, and he says, “Yes, you’re accepted, you're accepted to the internship program.” And I took the old-fashioned internship because I really didn’t know what specialty or whatever I wanted to do. I was more family practice oriented initially. Interviewer: Did you do your internship at Great Lakes or elsewhere? (00:34:52) Veteran: Nope, at Bethesda Naval Hospital. And that’s when he told me, "You know who was the best doctor in our family?” and I said, “I don’t know.” He says, “My brother, who was a D.O. �family doctor in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.” I said, “Oh,” and he says, “Well, congratulations, you'll be one of two D.O. interns here at Bethesda. (00:35:20) Interviewer: And just for people who aren’t really aware, D.O. is Doctor of Osteopathic, it’s a different program from the standard M.D. Medical Doctor although you get essentially most of the same training just a little bit different approach but traditionally there had been some prejudice against D.O.’s from the M.D.’s? Veteran: Yes there was, yes there was. The last state to give us practice rights was Mississippi, not surprisingly—oh, excuse me. But, the military gave us the opportunities of a lifetime. And that was one of the other reasons I said, “I want to apply to the military.” Because their graduate programs are recognized by both and that’s the main thing, you have to be recognized by credentialing bodies and certification bodies in any field, in any profession, and at that time, the military, and to this present day, the military is wide open for all qualified people. And I was just fortunate enough, after that internship year, I was the first D.O. resident to be accepted to a pediatric residency program at Bethesda Naval Hospital. (00:36:45) Interviewer: Talk a little bit about that first year at Bethesda as an intern. Veteran: It was very interesting. The most biased service was the surgical program, because at that time, D.O.’s were not accepted to M.D. surgical residencies, or even rotations. And it brought back the memories of Warrenton, Virginia, in my own mind, and I got to feel the empathy for people who get discriminated against. For no reason. For no reason. Not even willing to give you a chance to show your abilities, and that’s evil. In my estimation, that’s the �most evil concept I know of because you can destroy people much easier than you can uplift people. And it’s so easy to discriminate. It’s so easy. Am I good at not discriminating? No, there are times where I catch myself and I say, “Ulli, don’t judge. Do not judge. You're a mere mortal being, like the rest.” (00:38:16) Interviewer: Okay, so as you’re--In principle as an intern, you would kind of rotate through all the different specialties. Veteran: All the different services. And I rotated through pediatrics--that was one of my first rotations. I loved it because of my own background at age one. I said “This is it! This is it.” Because pediatrics is the future of the society. If you can’t deal with children, I mean, your generation is going to die out. Interviewer: I think of a naval hospital as treating servicemen who tend to be older than needing a pediatrician. Veteran: Yes, but the dependents. You have to treat the whole family. You just have to. And on the grocery bags at the commissaries, the most difficult job is being a Navy wife. At that time it was predominantly male dominated, you know. But, so, the wives would go shopping at the commissary and so on, and at the PX’s but on the grocery bags, yeah they had: “The most difficult job is being a Navy wife.” And, it’s true! I mean, they support the family while you're on missions or whatever, and it’s a team effort, and it’s a difficult effort at times. (00:39:40) �Interviewer: Okay. Now of course, at that point, that first year you're right there at Bethesda, so you get to go home at night, or at least whenever you’re off your shifts. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Now, after that, your internship-Veteran: The residency, it’s the same thing, you got to go home after your shifts, usually, for three years. Interviewer: So, what did you do after the first year? (00:39:59) Veteran: After the first year, I got accepted to that pediatric residency for three years. And then after the pediatric residency I was supposed to go to Great Lakes. I had orders in hand to go to Great Lakes, because we wanted to go back home to Michigan and so on, and all of a sudden, I was actually taking a very sick infant from Bethesda Naval Hospital to Oakland Naval Hospital via AirEvac, medical air evacuation out of Andrews Air Force Base, at that time it was called Andrews Air Force Base, and it took us twenty-four hours to get to Oakland because they stop it at all types of bases to pick up the ill, the sick people. And the reason this baby had to be transferred is because both parents were active duty Navy on special projects that I never knew about-- and I don’t want to know about it. They wanted to see their baby and it was a very critically ill patient and there was no pediatric nurse with me, so I took care of the infant and so on, and we got that infant safely to Oakland Naval Hospital late at night their time, and the parents were there and they just hugged, and, you know. They knew too that it was a terminal type of deformity or malformation, but at least they got to see their child, their son. Then my orders while I was aboard the plane, the copilot comes back to me and says, “Your orders for �Great Lakes have been rescinded, I just got this message,” and I said, “It did?” And he says, “Yes, you’re going to Annapolis to the Naval Academy. You’re going to be Chief of Pediatrics there.” I said, “I am? How come?” I mean, how? “Well you know, that’s a nicer duty station than Great Lakes,” and I said, “I know, I know, but my wife was already out looking for apartments” or homes or whatever, because her sister lives right near Great Lakes and her brother-in-law lived right near, or lives still, right near Great Lakes. So, make a long story short, I called her as soon as I landed you know and I said, “Patty, we’re going to Annapolis.” “Annapolis? But I’m looking at houses here in the Great Lakes area.” And I said, “Well, forget it. The Navy has its own methods and I am going to follow my orders of course.” And she says, “yeah, you have to.” So, we moved up to Annapolis. It was wonderful. (00:43:17) Interviewer: Okay. Now, what years were you there? Veteran: From July ’76, bicentennial year, and I left there December 30th. And December 31st started my fellowship in allergy, immunology, and asthma between Georgetown and Bethesda Naval Hospital, and that lasted 2 years. And it was great! Great training. And right across the street from Bethesda Naval Hospital are the National Institutes of Health. All of the different institutes. And one of the institutes is the National Institute of Infectious Diseases and Allergy. Well, every Thursday afternoon, we got to go as trainees on rounds and lectures at the National Institutes of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. And so it just broadened my horizons, even then. And then in January of 1980, I became Chief of Allergy at Bethesda Naval Hospital. And I had an assistant, another physician who was an allergist, a wonderful allergist, and the two of us ran that department. But I came up with the idea through my previous Chief of Allergy, to make visits to the outlying facilities to save the government money. Because for a patient visit to our �clinic at Bethesda, is usually—was usually in the neighborhood of oh, $2000 or $3000 per member. Because they had to cut orders, they had to get per diem and they had to stay in an expensive area of Washington. So, he told me, he says “Ulli, just keep up your visits to the outlying facilities.” That was the best advice I ever had. So where would we go? I loved submarines. Don’t psychoanalyze me. And submarines were the main weapon I think that won the Cold War. I really believe that to my dying day. And I had the pleasure and honor, when I was a lowly intern in August of 1972, of hearing all this commotion outside of my emergency room that was my emergency room on rotation that whole month. I hear this commotion outside. It’s Admiral Zumwalt who was the Chief of Naval Operations. Literally dragging in Admiral Hyman Rickover, and I am the doctor on duty. And I have several corpsmen, or medics as they are called in the Navy, corpsmen and corpswaves. And he says to me, “Young doctor, I think, I think Admiral Rickover is having a heart attack.” And I said, “Oh my god, yes.” You could tell, just the, the—it was awful. We got the gurney, I mean everything worked like clockwork and everything just went super well. And I respected Admiral Zumwalt, first of all, before even getting to meet him, as a realm human being. And he did reform the Navy as far as some of the standards and so on. Which is great, which is great. You have to sometimes think outside of the box, as a leader. And—but you do it peacefully, slowly. You have to do it slow. And anyway, he stayed right at the bedside with Admiral Rickover, and Rickover said, “I don’t want to stay here, you are all over-reacting.” And I said, “No sir, we are not over-reacting. You’ve had a massive heart attack, and we are going to get you into the coronary care unit, and we are going to transport you there with the help of people.” And Zumwalt stayed that night with him. He helped us pull, push the gurney and everything. And he says, “Can I do something?” You know. And I think he carried the IV bag and everything. I mean, that’s how down to earth these German were. �But he, Admiral Rickover, is shouting, you know, “I don’t want to stay here, I don’t think I need to stay here, I feel better.” So we got him into the coronary care unit and everything was wonderful. And he remembered my name, years later. Because, in 1983, shortly before I left the active Navy, he was outside of our allergy clinic because we gave all the vaccines for mobilization. Well, he had been invited by the Chinese to inspect their nuclear Navy. They were going to honor him. And he said, “I don’t need those vaccines. I am not going to get those vaccines.” And I heard the commotion. I went out there. His second wife, who was the nurse for the first wife who had passed on, his second wife was a little bit younger. And she said to him, “Heimie, listen to this young doctor.” Me! And I said, “Admiral, I don’t think you remember me, but—” And I had a badge on. “But,” I said, “that August night in 1972 when the Admiral Zumwalt brought you in for that heart attack, we got you through that with the help of God, and this time, you do need vaccines. Because we need many vaccines. I don’t want you to get sick over there.” And he wasn’t going for about two weeks anyway, three weeks, so it would have had time for the vaccines to really work. He says, “But I hear they make you sick.” And I said, “Yes, they do. That’s why you have time to rest a little bit.” “I can’t rest!” But the wife calmed him down, and said, “Listen to him, listen to this young doctor.” And that’s my famous story about Admiral Rickover. (0:50:30) Interviewer: Alright, now I am going to back up a little bit. So we kind of covered the sort of full time you had in active duty. Early on in that first year, did you ever get any kind of Navy training in terms of how to march and salute and that kind of thing? Veteran: Yes, it was about a week before the internship started. �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: At Bethesda. Interviewer: And how seriously did they take that? Veteran: I would say moderately seriously. They said, basically, you have inspections and those you have to take seriously. The uniform has to be crisp and clean. And this is still my uniform. I still fit in it, God bless. People get jealous, they say “How can you fit in this uniform from 1993?” And I said, oh— (00:51:32) Interviewer: Well it is from 1993 rather than 1973 so you were given a little bit of help there. Veteran: Yeah, that’s right. I had an older uniform but that’s gone. Interviewer: So you stayed in the reserves until 1993? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Alright, so now you think that you learned— Veteran: Yeah, we learned to march during that week and so on. And it was who to salute, who you don’t have to salute first or anything like that. And you can salute just out of respect, I mean. And the medical department in any of the military branches are unique. And some of the active duty military people felt at that time that you weren’t really in the real military. But, in 1984, I got selected to go for combat casualty simulation down to Texas. And then I learned more there about the real military. And that’s when I aligned myself with the marines in battlefield simulation. Because I was older and not so, well, I was physically active of course but not of, not �like the marines. They made me the radio man. And they had three marine guards around me at all times in the battlefield, or on the periphery of the battlefield. So I would call in for airstrikes against the enemy. (00:53:03) Interviewer: So you got like, because the Navy corpsmen get training with the marines for sort of a combat field training— Veteran: Yes, yes they are excellent. Interviewer: And so they do—so in a way you were getting the doctor’s equivalent of that, at least the reserve doctor’s equivalent of that, on a limited scale? Veteran: Yes, on a limited scale. Interviewer: So they’re showing you a little bit about what the marines do in the field? Veteran: Mhmm. Even helicopter rides down in Texas. And nighttime simulation. I felt an M16 in my back, and I had the armband, the Red Cross arm band. And I said “What about Geneva Convention?” “What convention?” Boom-boom. And in Vietnam, to tell the truth, I’ve known, I knew corpsmen. And one in particular, he became a Captain. He went—he was a mustanger, he went through. He was my administrative duty officer, John Auchorn, wonderful person. He’s still with us, thank God. Wonderful, wonderful person. And he told me about the horrors of Vietnam when he was a corpsman. They initially had to wear the helmet with the Red Cross on it. That was the perfect target for the Viet Cong. And finally, an order came down: you don’t have to wear that helmet. Because they want to kill off the medics, the radio people… (00:54:47) �Interviewer: Yeah, the officers, the machine gunners, yeah the— Veteran: Exactly. Disenfranchise the whole unit, you know. Interviewer: And the various places where you might wind up in an armed conflict from the 80s, or certainly more recently, may well be places where they have no particular interests in things like the Geneva conventions. Veteran: Yes, that’s right. I have a wonderful buddy currently, he’s a physician’s assistant at Cherry Street. His name is Larry Brewer, and he is wonderful. He was in the Air Force initially, in Vietnam during the Tet offensive. One of his friends in the distance was blown apart by a shell. After that, he went into the Army, became a nurse and then a physician’s assistant. And he’s still a physician’s assistant at the Cherry Street Healthcare System after 30-some years. And I used to volunteer there, that’s how I got to meet him. (00:55:49) Interviewer: Now during the time when you were in the Navy, I mean did you notice any kind of echoes or reverberations from Vietnam or responses to the war? Things like that, or how did that effect you? Veteran: I saw some of the returning POWs, we all did, and they had the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder totally. I mean, it was so tragic. And some of the doctors didn’t recognize it completely, because it was relatively new. (00:56:30) Interviewer: That was like in 1970, 3 or 4, in there. Yeah. �Veteran: Exactly, exactly. And it was, that was talked about. And we knew—we started noticing problems already then about the defoliant, slowly but surely. Interviewer: Yep, Agent Orange. Right. Veteran: Agent Orange. And ironically, it was Admiral Zumwalt that recommended that it be used along the Mekong River to defoliate the hiding places for the Viet Cong, because we were losing soldiers along the Mekong every day. Every day, the casualty rate was really bad. So. And he was reassured by Dow Chemical that it’s safe: “it’s not safe for plants, but it’s safe for humans.” Well, we know better now. And I have seen Agent Orange diseases. I have seen them personally, and it’s horrific. It’s horrific. And it should all teach us a lesson that chemicals do hurt the immune system, first of all, and they can cause many problems with different organ systems, including the immune system. Admiral Zumwalt’s son—Admiral Zumwalt went into a depression because his own son volunteered for Vietnam, along the Mekong River, so he was constantly exposed to Agent Orange. He dies of lymphoma. Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. That’s one of the diseases. Anything that alters the immune system is going to cause trouble for us. Any chemical. I don’t care what it is. (00:58:29) Interviewer: Alright, now, another side of the whole Vietnam thing is essentially—it’s political but it’s also a transformation of the military, becomes all volunteer. There’s various responses to the anti-war movement and then there is a congress at times that is going to be less inclined to provide funding. Now within the Navy itself, at least the part of it that you’re dealing with, did that effect—did any of that sort of stuff effect the morale of the people in the service? Or did you still have people who were pretty much the same? �Veteran: With some of the enlisted, it did. And I must be honest, some of the officers too. I was initially for the Vietnam war, but when the Tet Offensive occurred, because we had been told that we have this thing under control. But, a guerilla movement, ISIS for example now. It’s difficult to control militarily, standard military operations, against a guerilla movement. The British couldn’t do it in 1776. Or in 1775 at Lexington and Concord. The kind of—I mean the militia, minute men, were guerillas, figuratively. (00:59:48) Interviewer: At least when they fought that way, that was most successful. Veteran: Sure. And the British said “this is no gentlemanly way of waging war.” And I am going, “my God, what is gentlemanly?” What defeated the Germans in the Soviet Union? Partisans, primarily. Interviewer: Well, not, maybe not primarily. But they were part of it. Veteran: But they were part of the Red Army. And history is… Interviewer: Yeah. But basically, it became a lot more complicated than it was supposed to be. Yeah, okay. Veteran: And surrounding Leningrad, the Russians should take a lesson from that, what they are doing in Aleppo. It’s their Leningrad—I mean, it’s the reverse of, well, the Nazis did Leningrad, the Russians are doing Aleppo. I mean, it never ends. It never ends. Inhumanity. (1:00:40) Interviewer: Alright. Now, to think back on the period when you are on your active duty in the Navy, are there other memories that kind of stand out for you? From that period? �Veteran: Yes, the people at the top during my active duty years of 12, well 11 active duty years on and off at Bethesda and at Annapolis too, the higher ups—if you were willing to work, if your morale was—if you were uplifting to people, they loved you. It was that simple. And treat each person with respect, which they deserve. The Golden Rule. Follow the Golden Rule and you will succeed in America. If you don’t want to follow the Golden Rule and you think you’re the hotshot of everything…Guess what? People will…If they see you are trying and if they see that you are really struggling, but you are trying, they will give you a lending hand. We are the most generous nation on the planet. Who supports the United Nations, for the most part? Who supports NATO, for the most part? Who supports SEATO, for the most part? I mean you know, Southeast Asia Treaty Organization. (1:02:26) Interviewer: Yep. All that was there. Veteran: Yeah. I mean, it’s America. And with manpower and supplies and everything. Interviewer: Right. Now how was time in the Naval Academy? How was that a different job? Veteran: Wonderful. It was wonderful, but I came to find out that the midshipmen were students. Students first. Yes, they had some family traditions to uphold. And several of them came to me, confidentially, after the first year, okay? Freshman year, they call it the fourth year or something like that. And they say to me, “I don’t want to stop here, I want to go further.” And I said, “Listen, chances are—” “Well my father was in the Navy, my grandfather was in the Navy…” and so on. I said, “That’s wonderful. Wonderful for history. And you. That’s history. You’ve got your own life. And it comes time, sooner or later, you’ve got to make your own decision about it. �About your own lifestyle, your own style of living. And if you drop out before the sophomore year—I mean if you drop out before the end of the sophomore year, you owe no obligated time.” At that time, that was the thing. So several did drop out, but most stayed in. And they were— they were very good. Very good, upstanding citizens. And I think they are going to be, or they are, good leaders. Good leaders. And they invited me to the lunches at Bancroft Hall where they eat up to 6000 calories, because they are constantly exercising and everything else. 6000 calories. And they kept looking at me, “You’re not eating enough.” I said, “I am eating enough for an adult.” But they were good, they were good. And we sponsored several midshipmen. And they all have been wonderful and we keep in touch with them, and they’re successful in industry. (1:04:54) Interviewer: What does it mean to sponsor them? Veteran: Oh, when they are freshmen especially, they look for sponsors in the community. We stayed in Annapolis from ’76 to ’83. We decided not to move out of Annapolis. And we were from Michigan, so we sponsored 3 Michiganders, midshipmen, freshmen midshipmen, and they couldn’t get over the fact that I didn’t know some of the rules, you know. And so they taught me, very privately, very nonthreatening, you know. Some of the rules and so on, which was helpful to me. Especially as chief of a department, you know. (1:05:39) Interviewer: Maybe you ought to know those things. Veteran: But they were good, they were good. I think America can be proud of its military academies. They’re not the type that would push the button, you know? Let’s say it that way. And the wonderful thing about our U.S. Constitution is always, always, there is civilian control �over the military. And that was—that’s what helped us, has saved us, a countless number of times. If you can fire the Commander in Chief, like Nixon, my goodness! That’s unheard of. (1:06:25) Interviewer: Well, you can also fire a guy in the Army, like a MacArthur, if he makes too much trouble. Veteran: Right! When he refuses to salute the Commander in Chief. Interviewer: Okay. Now what kind of other things that kind of stand out for you, I mean like in your active duty period? Or have we hit kind of most of the main points of that now? Veteran: Most of the main points. Interviewer: Okay. Now you stay in the reserves for some time and they do have a variety that— Veteran: Yes, nine and a half years. Interviewer: You have, and you had mentioned already, training with the Marines in ’84— Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Did you get other training stints or other things while in the reserves? Veteran: Well, what I did, I was commanding officer of the medical unit in Grand Rapids, and then in Muskegon, and then they closed Muskegon on us, so I went back to Grand Rapids as commanding officer of the medical unit. And what we did, we had the different corpsman and the different officers, we had several nurses, we had an anesthesiologist, we had a neurologist to �give lectures to the other units to just get them up to date on CPR, to get them up to date on what’s happening in medicine for their own care, too. And who knows? Like the Seabees, they see medical emergencies a lot when they are on—when they are doing construction work, oh my goodness. And one of my best friends to this day yet was a chief in the Seabees in Grand Rapids, and he and I stay in touch you know. And great, great person. And he took over the CPR training from our medical unit for the Seabees. So we worked—we have to work as teams. No person is an island. Especially in the medical field. And that is what I used to tell the corpsman, “I don’t care what your rank is, that’s manmade. That’s manmade. But when we have a patient in front of us, or an emergency in front of us, I don’t care what your rank is.” Like I won’t ask my plumber, “Did you got to college or didn’t you?” Or my electrician. You know, I am not interested in that! I am sorry. I don’t— (1:08:38) Interviewer: As long as you know they are licensed. Veteran: Yeah! Can you do the job? You know? And that’s all I ask of people: are you qualified? Can you do the job for me? And if you do a good job, believe me, I will give you good reports yearly. And you will get promoted. And I can almost guarantee it: you will get promoted. I’ve only had one corpsman in all of my career that said, “I could have gone to medical school, you know.” And I said, “Okay? Why didn’t you?” And one of the answers he gave was, “My wife didn’t want me to go.” I said, “Can I call up your wife?” “Ah, no, I have to go somewhere else right now.” And I am going…No, don’t lie. You know? And don’t get jealous. Look at what jealously did to Germany. The jealousy yields hate, and hate yields the worst things in us. (1:09:49) �Interviewer: Alright. Now, it’s pretty clear here from our conversation that your time in the Navy was a very positive experience for you. Veteran: Very positive for me. I was lucky. Interviewer: If you wanted to kind of sum up what it is that you learned from it or took out of it, what would that be? (1:10:05) Veteran: Camaraderie. Respect. And getting respect in turn. And being humble, and making you realize that you’re just a mere mortal that has to go through a journey that we all have to go through. And the great equilibrator is: you are born naked, and guess what? You’re going to go naked. Either way. But that—important lessons. And teamwork. And I still miss that teamwork. That, we don’t have as much in the civilian sector of medicine. And especially now, these are difficult times for American medicine because it’s transition time. So many changes have come down the road. I still work part time as an allergist in my old office. And the changes are overwhelming. And my generation is at fault, and I blame my generation, because during medical school, most of us said, “We really don’t want to know much about the business of medicine. We want to see patients, we want to help a little bit each patient, and so on. But leave the business up to someone else.” Well, oh boy! It was like a tsunami, coming down the road. The insurance industry said, “Oh, we’ll help you.” The business community said, “Oh, we’ll help you. We’ll help you organize.” And now… (1:12:02) Interviewer: Now you’ve got the government too. �Veteran: Now you’ve got the government on top of us. And supposedly, in 2018, all of these software systems for electronic records are supposed to interface, so that if you get stuck in California, they can access your medical record in California into our system. And they claim it’s going to be hack-proof. And I’m going, “Okay...” Interviewer: Yeah, okay. Well, just don’t tell the Russians. Veteran: The Russians are chess players. We forget that. Interviewer: Alright. Anyway, your own journey here has been a pretty remarkable one, so I’d just like to close here by thanking you for taking the time to share it today. Veteran: Thank you for having me. (1:12:53) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HierlwimmerU1965V Title A name given to the resource Hierlwimmer, Ulf (Interview transcript and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-13 Description An account of the resource Dr. Ulf “Ulie” Hierlwimmer was born on May 31 st in 1945, in the Soviet occupied zone of Germany. When he was around one year old, his mother moved their family to the safety of West Germany while his father was in the German Army. After his discharge, Hierlwimmer's family moved to the United States and settled into Detroit, Michigan, in 1953. Hierlwimmer pursued his ujndergraduate degree at Wayne State University before he was accepted to Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine. During the Vietnam War, he joined the Navy to continue his studies and became a pediatrician at Bethesda Naval Hospital, Maryland. After completing a fellowship in allergies, immunology, and asthma, worked as an active Navy doctor from 1972-1983, and then for nine and a half years in the reserves. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hierlwimmer, Ulf Rainer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy. Naval Reserve Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d781ecc5617d42b8d1dff431d34c0af7.mp4 000ad324421ffa2f0bc6c2302d5b98e4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a2486c1588d01fa83a1479913d365c5.pdf 5c8b685d63cfc0848f84c9c061ef9844 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Paul Hansmann Interview Length: (1:30:51) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We’re talking today with Paul Hansmann of Coons- Coon Rapids, Minnesota. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project and we're conducting this interview at the 2015 Ripcord Reunion. Okay Paul can you start off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born? I was born in August 28, 1948 in Cincinnati, Ohio. Interviewer: Alright did you grow up in Cincinnati or did you move around? I was there until I was in fifth grade and then we moved to Springfield, Illinois and I stayed in Springfield and graduated from high school in Springfield. Interviewer: Okay and what did your family do for a living when you were growing up? My dad was a baker and he worked for a commercial- commercial bakery all of his life. And my mom was a stay-at-home mom most of the time, later on she went to work for the Salvation Army. (1:11) Interviewer: Okay and so what year did you finish high school? I graduated from High School in 1966. Interviewer: Okay and then what did you do after graduation? I went- went to college in Cedarville, Ohio which is a Baptist College. And I went two years there and then I dropped out of college there and went back to Illinois and got a job in the bakery �and worked in the bakery for a while and that's when, that would’ve been 1968 and my wife and I got married in ‘68. She was a, I met her at college, and we got married in Iowa, she came from a farm background and we were married in- in Iowa in 1968. (2:11) Interviewer: Okay, now were you aware of the possibility that once you're out of college you might get drafted? I was aware of that and I didn't, kind of a little bit of a rebellious part of my background and- and I didn't necessarily give a whole lot of thought to it, but I thought no after I get married I probably won't get drafted so, you know. Interviewer: Yeah and if that had been a few years earlier you would have been right, cause that was an exemption there for a while. Alright now well when do you get your draft notice? I got my draft notice in… that, we got married in June of ’68. I got my draft notice probably in September timeframe of ‘68. And was told to report I think it was the 1st of February, end of January or 1st of February of ‘69. (3:22) Interviewer: Okay now did you go through a physical as part of the, this process? Yes. Interviewer: Alright and where did you do that? In St. Louis Missouri. Interviewer: Okay and when you went for the physical did you notice anybody trying to defeat the system or get disqualified or were you all cooperating? �Pretty much all cooperating, I- I didn't notice… it seemed like that most of us were, if we had an ailment or something like that you tended to hide it rather than play it up. See that was from my perspective anyway that's what it seemed like. Interviewer: Alright how much did you know about the war in Vietnam at that time? Not very much. (4:11) Interviewer: Okay. Really not, my dad was a World War II veteran and so that's probably why it didn't bother me one way or another, if it was my duty to serve then so be it. Interviewer: Yeah and were you aware at all of the anti-war movement going on? Oh yes, yeah there was a, there were, the college that I went to out in Ohio was very close to Antioch University and of course they were… me being from a Baptist background and them being from Antioch it was, there was a lot of drugs at Antioch, and long hairs, and war protesters, and so we saw a lot of that. Interviewer: Yeah but they were sort of the other guys. Yeah, they were different. Interviewer: Yeah, Cedarville and Antioch are about as opposite as you could get probably at that point. Yeah, we were. (5:06) Interviewer: Alright yeah okay so you know, you go, you go to the physical, where do you go for basic training? �Went from St. Louis where we got the physical and the swore in procedure, and went to Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Interviewer: Okay. For basic training. Interviewer: Alright when you got to Fort Bragg, I mean where there many people from… were you drafted officially out of Ohio as opposed, or- or out of Illinois? Out of Illinois. Interviewer: Okay and they sent you to Fort Bragg. Right. Interviewer: Were there a lot of guys from Illinois there or? Not a lot but I had one very close friend who he and I went the same church when we were in high school, and he went to a different high school but we were in the same church together so we were in youth group and stuff together and- and we got drafted on the same day. He was also married so that, we had that in common and- and so we went through basic training together. (6:07) Interviewer: Alright when you get to Fort Bragg what kind of reception do you get? Loud and proud, a lot of screaming, a lot of yelling. February and in Fort Bragg, North Carolina it was cold and sandy and, but it was a lot of screaming and yelling and kicking things, and trash cans bangin’, and you just kept quiet. Interviewer: Right, welcome to the army right away. That's right. Interviewer: Now do you have a few days of processing before the regular training starts? �None that I remember, they kind of mixed that in as things went along. Spent a lot of time doing push-ups and... Interviewer: Alright so they, okay because it seems to vary from place to place from what kind of experience you get. Of course, Bragg is home of like 82nd Airborne so there may be some of that rubbing off there, I don't know. Okay so they're working you out pretty hard, did you have any idea of what to expect when you got there? Absolutely none. (7:12) Interviewer: Alright. I had heard horror stories but really didn't- didn't- didn't have any idea of firsthand of what to expect. So, it was kind of a rude awakening, people yelling at you, and they- they were more interested in getting you into physical condition and- and which that didn't intimidate me at all because I’d played basketball in college and so I was in pretty decent shape and… Interviewer: Okay, so how long did it take you to adjust to the army way of doing things? Not very long they- they saw to it that you just kept your mouth shut and did what you were told and that's exactly what the goal was, is to react to orders not with a questioning mind but with just a blind following. (8:15) Interviewer: Alright and then aside from the- the PT part, what does the training consist of in basic? Weapons training, familiarizing yourself with- with the language, the phonetic alphabet, the map reading skills, a lot of that kind of stuff. All different types of weapons that- that you would use later, how to talk on radio, how to wire explosives, a lot of different things. �Interviewer: Okay, now the drill instructors, what proportion of them do you think had been to Vietnam? Darn close to 100 percent. Interviewer: Okay did anybody say anything about Vietnam or was it just all by the book? (9:12) No, it was, there was a lot, especially in the harassment stages as they were training us, there was a lot of them that you know we talked about, “if you don't do this, you're not gonna survive.” You know and- and because that was the- the thought process at that point in time is that everybody was going, you know you were here, you were going to Vietnam period. Interviewer: Okay cause early ‘69 is about the peak in terms of American numbers in Vietnam and we go down after that, but they were training a lot of people at that point. Yep. Interviewer: Yeah, okay so you do that and were there other guys who were having trouble with the training or would wash out or get put behind? Yeah there were quite a few, a lot of the guys were out of shape, somewhat soft, and then you had guys on the other end of the spectrum that were, it was a cakewalk for ‘em. So, it was, you had some on both sides but not a whole lot washed out. They kind of got ‘em back around and got ‘em in better shape. (10:20) Interviewer: Alright how long did the training last? Basic training was eight weeks. Interviewer: Okay, and what did they did with you next? �We went to Fort McClellan, Alabama for advanced infantry training and it was a beautiful scenario. Let me backup just a little bit, toward my, toward the end of my training in basic, I contracted double pneumonia. So, they took me into the hospital and temperature was around 105 and they packed me in ice and got my fever down and everything, so my lungs were all full and I was pretty sick boy for a while. And I spent a week in a hospital, and they wanted to keep me there, and I talked them into letting me out because I knew if I stayed more than a week, they would make me go through, back through basic training again and recycle. And the only thing I really had to complete yet was an ending physical training test, a PT test they called it. So, I had to pass it in order to graduate. All my test scores and everything had all been completed and they were fine. So, I had to go out and go do a PT test and I still had double pneumonia actually. And running a mile when you've got double pneumonia it as a challenge believe me. (12:00) Interviewer: Alright. But we went from there to Fort McClellan, Alabama and it was basically more of the same- more of the same training, not quite as much yelling, and more in- in-depth training I would say. Interviewer: Are you getting more into tactics and that kind of thing now or? Yeah, we were a lot more map-reading, observation, learning how to navigate, we had night navigation courses, and survival training that type of thing. Interviewer: Did they make any effort to sort of simulate conditions in Vietnam? They tried to you know as much as you can with Alabama and its totally different country, but it was, they did pretty well with that. Interviewer: What would they do in terms of that, what would they try to show you? �They would set up booby traps, punji pits, those kind of things. How to- how to be aware of your surroundings and- and look for certain things, what trails, you know they would look like in Vietnam and- and what to look for, and that type of thing. (13:21) Interviewer: Okay and at a certain point you wind up getting selected to go to- to NCO school, now was that a something, decision that was made back in basic or was that at AIT, or how did that happen? I think that was at AI- AIT and they had a battery of tests and it, they selected people based on test scores out of it. And in different areas, not only physical test scores but also on aptitude and decision-making and those type of thing. So, I was selected to go to NCO school. I had the opportunity to turn it down if I wanted to but my logic at that point in time was I had done the calculation on, okay what is, how much time does it take for each one of these, and I thought that it would be a lot better to spend as much time as I could in the States and be able have my wife come down and- and live off post and then go to Vietnam so that when I came home I would be out. Or if I didn't come home, then I would have spent as much time with her as I could have, so that was the logic pattern I used. (14:44) Interviewer: Alright so in the first stages of training she wouldn't have been there, right? No. Interviewer: She was back at- back at home but, and then how long was the NCO school scheduled to last? NCO school was ten weeks. Interviewer: Okay. �And she came down after probably a couple weeks. Her and the friend of mine who went to Fort Bragg with me, we go, we had gone through all the same training together and he was also selected for NCO school. And so, his wife and my wife loaded up the car and they came down together. Interviewer: Okay. And they stayed off post. Interviewer: Alright and what kind of accommodation did they find? Do you remember that? Trailer. Interviewer: Okay. (15:28) They lived in a trailer, off of, outside of Fort Benning and they became very good friends, close friends, and did everything together and then they could come in and visit us on Wednesday nights. And then on the weekends we generally got a pass, the married guys got a pass to go off, back to the trailer and spend the weekend with ‘em. Interviewer: Alright now what was the NCO training like? A lot of shit, a lot of leadership skills, how to direct men, how to position them, how to just be in charge. They- they were trying to train leaders, and, in all aspects, I guess. Interviewer: Okay and this was again geared toward Vietnam? Absolutely it was. Interviewer: And the people training you and were they sharing any of their own experiences, or were they just focusing on here are these skills, just do it this way? (16:37) �I got to know a few of them and at nights sometimes they would share some stories, but you find out that after you've been to Vietnam it's pretty hard to talk to somebody about it that hasn't been there, or it doesn't understand. But you start to, as you get to know ‘em, and they get a little more comfortable with it then yeah, they would share. Especially if you pointedly asked them questions, then they would generally. Interviewer: Okay but by this time did you want to know as much as you could about what you were getting into or were you just kind of just going through the program? Just going through the program. I- I really didn't, I really didn't try to learn anything extra as far as what they had been through or what it was, what to look forward to because I knew that all that, everyone was gonna be different. (17:39) Interviewer: Okay so that was a ten-week course, you finished that. Now what do they do with you? Well then, we had to go what they called OJT, and on-the-job training. So, we went to Fort Polk, Louisiana and went down there and were the cadre, the sergeants for a basic training company that was going through their cycle. So, we went through their cycle as their NCOs for eight weeks and our wives, we actually lived off post then because my friend and I both went there, and of course the wives went along and we lived on post with them in a 10 by 50 trailer for a while. And we were off post had to be back on post like at 4:30 in the morning. So, we would leave in the middle of the night, go back to post and then come back home that evening. (18:45) Interviewer: Right because your sergeants now at this point, so you got a little bit more status and a few other things. How did the more experienced, because you would have had �other trainers there who had been to Vietnam and that king of thing, how did they treat you guys? Like shake and bakes, you know that yeah, we had stripes, but we didn't know anything yet and they were very much accurate. They, we- we have the rank and we have the authority over theInterviewer: The troops. Troops but as far as being if you had an E-5 buck sergeant who had been in Vietnam and was back and he had the same rank as we did, there was absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind who was in charge. (19:35) Interviewer: Alright now when you're doing your training whether it was in- in Fort Benning or at- at Fort Polk were they taking any advantage of the available terrain, I mean did you train in swamps at all or? Oh yes, oh yes, a lot of our, and it got progressively more so as you went to Fort Polk because of the- the availability of all the swamps and the really nasty jungle type atmosphere. And so, it was- it was much more in our thought processes as, you know this could be more what it's like. Interviewer: And what time of year were you at Fort Polk? Fort Polk I was in… Interviewer: Late summer or? Late summer, yeah it had to be… we left Fort Polk probably 15th of December, so… (20:39) Interviewer: And how long a stent did you have there? Eight weeks. Interviewer: Okay. �So, I've been back- back it up from. Interviewer: Okay so back- back in a kind of early- early fall but in Louisiana that can still be pretty hot and muggy. It was. Interviewer: Yeah. And it was, it wasn't terribly nasty, but it was- it was definitely warm. Interviewer: And so, I guess some of the time at Fort Benning would have been pretty hot too. Fort Benning was very hot, extremely so. Interviewer: And did working in- in that kind of climate did that help you at all when you got to Vietnam? Some probably some, I- I don't we couldn't relate to the conditions because we couldn't duplicate the- the weight load that you had to carry. If you had to go back and redesign it, you would probably change because we didn't carry a full rucksack, we didn't carry all the ammo, all the things that we had to hump around in the jungle you can't duplicate that. (21:43) Interviewer: The water, the C-rations, and all the rest of that. That's right. Interviewer: Yeah, okay so you've gone through all of this stuff, you get now to the end of the year and do you get a leave before you have to go to Vietnam, is that how it works? Yeah, I had two weeks before we had, two weeks or thirty days, don't remember. But before I had to go to Vietnam and that was somewhat tough, somewhat scared to death. Not knowing what the future holds. �Interviewer: And did you take your wife back home to get re-settled or? Took her back home and she actually lived with her parents, at that point in time she was pregnant with our son and so it was, that was tough. It was challenging. (22:40) Interviewer: Okay and then where do you ship out from? You go to Oakland or Fort Lewis or somewhere else? Yeah Fort Lewis is where we left the States from and I thought that first flight took forever. It was like 21 hours moving from Fort Lewis, to Alaska, to Japan, to Wake Island, and- and into Cam Ranh. Interviewer: Alright and I’m not sure Wake is exactly on the way. Guam maybe. Yeah, but they made a little puddle stop there and I have no idea why. Interviewer: Okay well it’s possible. I- I don't know it could have been Guam. One of the times I stopped at Wake. Interviewer: Yeah Wake might, if you went back to what, to California Wake is a stop. I stopped at Wake Island one time and I can’t remember what … Interviewer: Did you have an R&R in Hawaii eventually? Yes. (23:37) Interviewer: Yeah that- that might have been for that because that would have been in between. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright so you end up doing these things enough, okay I’m learning the routes. �Yeah. Interviewer: Alright so yeah okay but it still basically it's just this tremendously long flight you take over, did you get off the plane in Alaska or in Japan or did you just stay on? We got off the plane and it was terribly cold in Alaska and, but it was, we got off plane, got to stretch our legs and then got back on and kept on going. Interviewer: Okay so where do you land in Vietnam? Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: Okay did you come in during the day or at night? Came in during the day. Interviewer: Okay and what's your first impression of Vietnam? Like a slum and- and we got off the plane and actually they’re filing guys on to other planes that have served their tours and that was a very eye-opening experience. That didn't do anything to calm my fears let's put it that way that. (24:37) Interviewer: Okay now were they paying any attention to you or did you just, did they just look scary or? They- they just, they look like they'd been through hell. And- and they had been, and it was, they looked so much older than us. I remember that- that sight of, why are all these old guys, you know that, and they looked tough. Interviewer: And you were probably older than quite a few of them? Yeah, I was probably a couple years older. Interviewer: Yeah. Than a lot of the- the guys that were with us. �Interviewer: Alright so now you get off the plane what do they do with you? We had a seven day in-country training, getting aware of what's going on. Did some rappel work, did some just general indoctrination of what to look for, what to, back through the- the boobytrapped scenario and- and getting your weapon, and getting comfortable with- with the surroundings. Adjusting to the climate, those type of things. (25:53) Interviewer: Did they try to teach you anything about the Vietnamese society or how to deal with the people or was it just military stuff? Most of it as I recall was just military. Interviewer: Okay now at what point do you know what your assignment is? Sometime during that week, they, and- and I would guess based on what the casualties were andand what was going on they determined where they needed you, so. Interviewer: Okay so- so okay, and so what do they assign you to? We were assigned to the, I was assigned to the 2nd of the 506th, Bravo Company. Interviewer: Okay. And I was put in, I didn't know which platoon at that point in time that didn't happen till I got to the company area but… (26:42) Interviewer: So, for the record you’re B Company 2nd Battalion 506th Regiment 101st Airborne Division. That's exactly right. Interviewer: Okay person making this will appreciate that. Okay and where were they based at that time? �They were based out of Camp Eagle, Camp Evans and that was up close to Phu Bai and so that was our next stop. We took a, I think it was a C-130 up there which was in I Corps, the northernmost area in Vietnam. Interviewer: Right and the area where really the most activity had been going on in the previous year. That’s right. Interviewer: Hence the most losses. Okay so the, so I guess Camp Eagle is- is it Phu Bai which is close to Hué and then Camp Evans I guess is a little bit north of that. Yeah, that’s exactly right. Interviewer: Yeah, closer to Quang Tri and Evans was where the Third Brigade was based and that's what your battalion was part of. That's right. (27:42) Interviewer: Okay and so you get up to Camp Evans, was the company there or were they in the field somewhere. Company was in the field. Interviewer: Okay. And all we had was just the new recruits or the new replacement people were there and we were only there probably two days. Interviewer: They, did they give you a training course up there or? Not much, everything, training from that point in time was live-fire, you know and- and you were gonna learn as you went. Interviewer: Okay. �If you survived, you learned. Interviewer: Because a lot of the guys went through sort of the Screaming Eagles Replacement Training thing which is like a week of orientation and patrolling and that kind of stuff, but it might have just depended on the timing for you. Could have done some of that, I don't recall. Interviewer: Okay now how do you wind up joining the unit? Do you wait for them to come back or do you go out? (28:42) Went out on a resupply helicopter. And they had blown an LZ, well no it wasn't, it was- it was kind of more down in the foothills at that point in time so you could secure an LZ and- and get your re… Interviewer: Okay so you were in sort of the lowland area? Yes- yes and- and it was relatively quiet at that point in time, so I had the opportunity it was, I was put in- in charge of the squad even though I didn't know anything, but I was the highest rank. And so, I was a squad leader and I'm gonna say six or seven guys. Interviewer: Okay and how did you approach that? They'd been there longer than you. How did you deal with them or introduce yourself to them? (29:48) Well my point to them was at this point in time when we go to the field, take all the stripes off, take all the insignias off, we’re all, have one point here; is at the end of the year we all get to go home. You guys know what you're doing, I would like for you guys to train me, so that you know if there's- if there's communication between me and higher-ups I'll handle that, but as far as what we do in the field, I need to learn as much from you as I can. �Interviewer: And then how did they respond to that? They were very, very helpful I mean they- they knew that the more that they could teach me, the less apt I was to get them killed. And so, it was a crash course, but they were very good at it and they- they were, they became very close friends. (30:50) Interviewer: Now did you have a sense of how long they had been with the unit or maybe? Yeah that- that was the initial conversation, you know the- the icebreaker so to speak, is, “okay how long have you been here?” You know and then it just it goes from there, where are you from, you know what- what do you do, what are you gonna do? What, and we found some common ground in different areas and things. Interviewer: Had some of them been there long enough to have been in the A Shau Valley the year before or? Yes. Interviewer: Yeah that kind of thing, so they had seen some real combat and- and that kind of thing. One of my closer friends had been, had gotten a Silver Star from the year before and so he had been there and- and knew what it was all about. And- and was, I knew they knew what they were talking about and so… (31:46) Interviewer: So, when was it exactly that you joined them, do you know the approximate date for that? Or what month anyway? Still January… It had to been in February sometime, I think. �Interviewer: February, okay alright and then so where you patrolling in that area for a while before you went anywhere else? What they called Search and Destroy missions, which a lot of searching not much destroying really going on at that point in time. But just familiarizing yourself with the areas, and what to do, and what not to do, and- and how to set up a night defensive positions, and- and just how to survive being out in the jungle. Interviewer: Okay and then how much of a pack did you have to carry once you're out doing that? (32:35) It and, it- it started out as one thing and then as you learn more you figured out what you needed and what you didn't need and the, I would say our rucksack ran in that 60- 65 pound range. Depending on some guys had an affinityfor hand grenades, and some guys carried extra belts of m16 ammo, and it just, it varied from person to person, but you allowed ‘em that freedom because they knew what they were doing. And I was to learn. Interviewer: Okay, now when you're out there in the lowland area did you have any enemy contact? No not really, we- we didn't, we saw, we found some spider holes and things like that. Some areas where some booby traps had been set up and- and things like that and blew them up. But not really any enemy contact. Interviewer: Okay and then at what point does their mission change? And do you go there, somewhere else? Yeah, the mission changed for me and I'm having a hard time relating the dates but we kind of kept moving farther and farther to the west. Getting closer and closer to the mountains and- and I �got more experience, sometime along in March the company commander had put together what was called a battalion Killer Team and you basically what it was was a recon team. And we had five guys on it, and I went out with, I was chosen as one of them and I went out with a friend of mine named Joe Strucke and he had extended his tour, so he had already been in Vietnam probably 14 months. And he went out as a leader and the process was for us to go into the mountains around Ripcord AO and we see aid in there and repelled in and then we were left out there for two weeks, and just to report back every night what was going on to avoid contact. And Joe Strucke had done this before and he was good at it and had been through a lot of stuff so he was training me to be the leader of the… so he was only with us for that two-week period and basically to train all of us and me to- to be able to do what recon work they wanted done. So, after the first two-week period then we got resupplied and Joe left us, and then there was just me and the four other guys and we did that for another cycle or cycle and a part of another one maybe and did that. We made no contact, it was basically a hide-and, hide-and-seek scenario. We had, we- we saw Vietnamese, but we were to not engage them at that point in time just report back. (36:13) Interviewer: So now is this March going into April that you’re doing this? No, this is, this had to be in March. Interviewer: All- all- all in March, okay. All in March. Interviewer: So, before April 1st, alright. So, and what were you observing at that time, you could see enemy, what are they doing? �Troop movements and troop numbers, what- what size units they were working in, you know whether they farther down in the foothills or maybe two or three, as you got into the heavier concentrations, or may have been six or eight moving together. So, just reporting troop movements and- and- and staying out of sight. Interviewer: Now was this scarier work than what you had done earlier? Oh yeah it- it ramped up because when you saw you know six or eight of them out there and you know there's only five of you it wasn't those six or eight that you were worried about, it was, you know what's gonna happen from there. (37:14) Interviewer: Alright and do you have any close calls while camped out at night or situations where they almost step on you? Yeah- yeah and- and generally not late at night, it was generally getting toward dusk and- and that type of thing when they may be walking down a trail and of course we were buried back in the jungle as much as we could be. And you just hoped that nobody rattled anything, but the guys were hand selected so, we knew which ones; no one snored, no one smoked, no one, you know those type of things that were conducive to hiding. Interviewer: Alright now did you encounter any- any wildlife, I mean were there snakes or other kinds of things? Snakes and quick little weasel, whatever they were called, I can't remember now. Name escapes me but, Mongoose- Mongoose and- and every now and then you'd see a rat and whatnot, but a lot of snakes, a lot of snakes and more mosquitoes then you could put in the country, or oughta put in the country so… (38:34) �Interviewer: And could you do anything to protect yourself against the mosquitoes? It- it took a while, you used to put on the bug spray but once we went out there on this team then that stopped. Interviewer: Yeah. So, you could… Interviewer: That- that would smell distinctive. That’s right. So, you quit using that and we- we had become by that point in time, you began to smell like the jungle. Because when I first went to the field it was sixty days before I got my first change of clothes. So, that I- I smelled like jungle by then and not very, and no way a perfume that you want, but I smelled like the jungle and everything, all my clothes had rotted off so to speak. Didn't have- didn't have any underwear, didn't have anything other than my fatigue pants and a t shirt. (39:34) Interviewer: They didn’t- they didn’t resupply you with any clothing? Nope, for sixty days they didn’t. Interviewer: Alright now was the first part of sixty days where you're still in the lowlands and then you just have the same clothes and you've been with those out into the jungle? Now when we went with the- with the Killer Team and went out there then we got camo fatigues. So, we got the different colored fatigues and- and- and we would paint up our faces and- and did some of that too, to help stay out of sight. Interviewer: Right, okay so when did the- the Killer Team thing end? That ended just shortly before April 1st. They pulled everybody in Bravo Company back in and we were getting ready to go to Ripcord. �Interviewer: Okay. And that was planned for April 1st. (40:21) Interviewer: Alright so what do you remember about April 1st? April 1st was very significant, I was being a squad leader, I had a- a smoke grenade. So, Ripcord you could land three helicopters at the same time and we were to try and get the- the Combat Assault in there as quickly as possible. Get all the boots on the ground we could. And so, I was given, I was in that first wave and had a red smoke grenade in my hand just in case we got incoming fire and it was a hot LZ. Of course, as we started coming in, boom, boom, boom, boom the mortars started coming in and so popped red smoke and so did the other two helicopters, I'm not sure who was on them but, and our designation we were given orders on what sector we were to move to. And being on one of the first ones, we were designated to go the far end of the firebase away from Impact Rock, and go to the far point as far as we could and spread my men out, out there, get dug in. So, we went to the far end of the firebase and- and fortunately there was hardly a foxhole out there and although not big enough but it was- it was there and we secured that into the firebase but mortar rounds were raining in with regularity at that point in time. That was 8 o'clock in the morning April 1st. (42:01) Interviewer: Alright now were the mortars targeting the area where you were, or they were mostly going for wherever the helicopters were coming? Mostly going for wherever the helicopters were landing. Interviewer: Now how close were you to… because there eventually this is basically this is sort of a- a bald hilltop at this point, kind of a rocky hilltop with other hills kind of around �it and you're under fire and eventually the firebase would have sort of two helipads on it and were you close to one of the areas that the helicopters would land on there? No, we weren’t. Interviewer: Okay. We were, my squad was- was probably about as far away from the helipad as you could get fortunately. And that- that was a good thing for us because most of the round, now every thenevery now and then you would have a round that would land short of there or long of there or whatever else is they were directing their fire. And you would get, you know shrapnel going overhead as rounds exploded and whatnot and you could hear ‘em, the rounds coming in, that whistle is something that you never forget. So, every time one would come in of course we'd be as low as we could get in the hole. (43:08) Interviewer: And were you taking any small arms fires or just mortars? Heard some 50- 51 caliber rounds. Interviewer: That’s the machine gun, Okay. Interviewer: Alright did any of your men get hit that day? In the company, well Joe Strucke I told you about before, he happened to be with the command group at that point in time. He was kind of the- the first sergeant in the field, he was an E-6 and he- he was wounded. There were a lot of guys getting hit, a lot of- a lot of wounded as the helicopters would come in, before they could get under cover somebody would get hit. And he was wounded, he lost an eye and part of his arms got messed up, but that was the closest of our group, of my squad group that- that would have been. �(44:10) Interviewer: Yeah but your own squad they those guys where okay. They were intact. Interviewer: Okay so now is it to you- you go in there kind of first thing in the morning essentially, one of the first squads in. You- you dig in, you have your positions set up. What happens now to you guys later in the day? The- the rounds and- and this is a day-long process of trying to get all the equipment, the engineers in, to- to get the artillery units in, and all that kind of thing. Trying, attempting to get all this in here, the problem is that as you're trying to do all this there, the mortar rounds are flying. And every bird that comes in, somebody gets hit. Well that requires another medevac and then you're loading guys on the medevac and you put three or four guys on a medevac to get them out of there and two of the guys that are helping load the bodies get hit. So, and the- the helicopters were, they were going down. You know they- they weren't totally disabled but they were shot up enough to where when they got back to Evans they took ‘em out of commission. So, it was constantly of, you know what's the process here? How are you gonna be able to get the wounded out, without causing more wounded? (45:28) Interviewer: Let alone do things like set up an artillery position. An impossible task is what it was. So, later on in the day, it became very evident that this wasn't gonna work. They just had it zeroed in too good and the Cobra Gunships and- and all that kind of thing were flying missions all day long around us. Targeting potential gun sights and mortar pits and things out there in the jungle that were firing at us. They were trying to destroy them. And most of our day was spent trying to site where they were firing from so that we could direct fire �and report back and- and let them know where it was coming from. And so, it was just a constant juggling of trying to get the right thing done which I don't think there was a right thing. (46:26) Interviewer: Alright so now how does this situation resolve itself? Eventually someone made the decision and handed down that we weren't gonna be able to maintain our position there on the hill. So, the- the order was given that at midnight we would walk off that hill. Well there had to be a lot of prep work done in advance of that, simply because we had, at that point in time, we had three KIAS. And we had all this equipment from the wounded guys, got all their rucksacks, and their weapons, and- and it was going on 60- 65 pounds a man. And all these guys gettin’ wounded. So, what are we gonna do with all of it? Well what we ended up doing is we piled it all up in one great big pile. We buried the three guys that were up there and were KIAS. And then so that we could be in position at midnight the, from another firebase, an artillery unit was going to fire an illumination for us. And there was a pathfinder group up there and they were gonna lead us down off of the hill to link up with a sister company because we were pretty well shot out up at that point in time. (47:52) Interviewer: Alright and so how did that evacuation go? The pucker factor went up really high because going for a walk at midnight in triple-canopy jungle is not something I would recommend. And so, we were scared and after being shot at all day long you can imagine. We set it all up, so the explosives were ready to go, and we started down off of there, followed the ridgeline and we were gonna link up with Alpha Company. Got a safe distance away to where they could detonate the, all the supplies and everything else, they wrapped it all with det cord, tied all the explosive together, so it all went up in one great big �charge. And after that it was just a matter of- of them firing illumination continuously from midnight till four o'clock in the morning and it took us four hours to link up with Alpha Company. (48:58) Interviewer: About how far do you think that distance was? I have no idea yeah, I really don't I- I know it was a very cautious walk. It was… Interviewer: So, it may have just been a kilometer or something like that. It could have been, I- I really don't have any idea. I know it was- it was scary. Interviewer: Where they just on one of the neighboring hills or ridges so your kind of going down then back up. Yeah that's- that's the way I kind of remember it and it was kind of, it kind of followed a ridgeline and then and then back up the other side and we- we had to stop at the bottom before was started to go back up because there had to be contact made with Alpha Company and then kind of them guide us up through and where we ought to be and- and then they took us in and we were pretty much a nervous wreck and they took us in and put us in the center of their perimeter and said, “okay guys just crash.” And- and it was, you can finally take a deep breath and- and so it was- it was a scary time, but it was also very, felt good when you finally got to- got to crash. (50:19) Interviewer: Alright so what do you do the next day? Those- those days after that kind of became a little bit of a blur. It just, we went several days of just patrolling around Ripcord again. And did a lot of things there was some point in time that we actually went back to Evans, I don't remember when that was. �Interviewer: Cause one of the other people from the company I interviewed talked about being out there and pretty much running out of food. We did that, absolutely I, it was a point in time when the- the weather got really bad and we were soaked in and they couldn't get us resupply and we were- we were out of food and I remember nobody had any C- rations. And one of the guys had a little tin with some crackers in it, four crackers and some cheese and he was offered twenty- twenty dollars for that little, and that's all there was. And, but we would, we were hungry, we were just flat hungry. And ended up, they couldn't get an LZ, we couldn't get an LZ cut there for us, but Delta Company had gotten resupply, so Delta Company took all of our supplies as well and it- it was just our process to link up with them. So, that's what we did, and we spent a- a while trying to get with them and then once we got to them, there again it was the same thing because we were shorting numbers. Our company size was probably, I don’t know, I’m thinking there were only 35 or something like that in our entire company. (52:18) Interviewer: How many do you think you took on to Ripcord originally? Probably 75. Interviewer: Yeah. Somewhere in that neighborhood, so when we linked up with Delta Company then they took us in, they knew we'd been without for a long time and- and Captain Rollison said, “you guys go in, get your C- rations, eat as much as you want, just sit down and relax. Don't worry, we've got you covered.” And so that was, there again that was one of those whew man through this one. �Interviewer: Okay so part of what's going on at this point is the weather is bad enough it's hard to be able to get back in and really conduct operations effectively because you can't resupply, let alone establish a base up on top of Ripcords. Right. Interviewer: Okay so you do that, eventually you do get back to Evans and then you go back out in the field again? (53:05) Yeah, we went back out in the field and more of the same Search and Destroy missions, looking for the enemy trying to figure out troop strength. Preparing to go for another assault on Ripcord. I knew that Alpha Company had tried in March to- to take the hill. We had tried April, and so I assumed there was probably gonna be one of the other two companies that were gonna try it the next time, so we were out in the jungle and I was tickled to death to be there to be honest about it. That was, I felt safer out there than having mortar rounds raining it on your head. Interviewer: And then Charlie Company then goes up I guess on 10th or 11th of April. Yeah. Interviewer: They walk up the side and for some reason don't get shot at. (53:58) For some reason and had the opportunity to actually establish the fire base, and of course they had the perfect man there to do it. And- and Izzy… Interviewer: Vazquez. Yeah Izzy I a call him. Captain Vazquez was up there and of course didn't know about this until many decades later his- his true expertise and- and why he knew what he knew, you know he was- he was the man and all my respect for that- for that individual. But then it was so that �would have been mid- April we were- we were kind of on a rotation then for, as I recall, it was two weeks, we had four companies I don’t know if it was probably Delta and. Interviewer: Charlie and Delta yeah. Charlie, and we went, we were on the firebase providing perimeter support for two weeks and then six weeks out in the jungle was basically what it was. So we were patrolling a round Ripcord, just doing the same old thing, trying to survive and then along came May and we were out in the field, and we probably had an objective to get to a certain point but it was actually, and I expressed my opinion that that's too far to try and travel in one day. You just, you can't move that far, and we had a relatively new lieutenant, matter of fact very new, but he was gonna try and impress the brass and- and he stretched how far we should travel. (55:51) Interviewer: Now were the platoons operating separately at this point? Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And so, and I may have been in a position at that point in time where I was the platoon sergeant, and so we tried to move farther than we could. We got to that position, we made it but it didn't give us time to set up listening posts, to get dug in, to scout the area, and- and see what we were, to get our claymores set up, or any that kind of thing. We didn't have time to do that because it was dark, so here we were, we got in there and we- we dropped our rucksacks and the guys are exhausted and hadn't had anything to eat, when all hell broke loose. And they opened up on the 5th of May and- and started firing and RPGs and- and small-arms fire, machine-gun fire, a lot of AKs. (56:54) �Interviewer: Now were you on a hilltop or inside of one or? Kind of- kind of on a little rise, a little bit. We weren't way high up, but it was- it was a little bit of a rise and because that was the best place we could find to try and get a vantage point. I immediately picked up the radio because I had a lot of training in mortars from NCO school. So, I could act as a forward observer and the first thing I did was got a hold of- of Ripcord and got a hold of mortar platoon and called in a fire mission and started walking mortar rounds in on ‘em. And the lieutenant he didn't know how to, I didn't really have much contact with him after that. He was, I think it was his first firefighter or first experience, so he was pretty rattled. And so, I handled that and I did probably made my biggest mistake as I, in order to see where the rounds were firing so I could direct ‘em, I got up on top of a rock and had the radio in my hand well a RPG round landed relatively close and- and I got hit in the neck and knocked me off the rock and we had four, four or five other guys that got some shrapnel. No one was killed, but we were shot up and we got the- the enemy was dispersed. They quit firing but the problem was they couldn't get a helicopter in to- to get the wounded out. And they said, “well we'll just have to wait till morning,” because there was no LZ anywhere around us. So, we spent that night out there and then they came in the next day and they took all of- all of us wounded out in a jungle penetrate. (59:01) Interviewer: And can, describe what that was for someone who's never heard of one. A jungle penetrator is a pronged seat that they lower down on a cable from a helicopter, so the helicopter has to hover and drop this down through the- the trees and then you get on the seat and hang on and they pull you, elevate you out without the helicopter ever landing. Interviewer: Alright and they had to do that for five guys. Yup. �Interviewer: Did that have to be one at a time that they did that? Well they actually brought in two birds. Interviewer: Okay. They brought in- they brought in two of them, one after the other one and so we got to go, and we went to Danang. We went straight to Danang from the jungle. Interviewer: Okay and then how long were you away from the unit then? (59:51) Had surgery on that next day and then was in the hospital there, woke up in intensive care. Was in the hospital there for probably three/ four days, and then went from there to Cam Ranh Bay to recover. Because they had left the- the wound open to allow it to drain. And they, I was there for say two and a half weeks, something like that in Cam Ranh. Interviewer: Now while you were there, we were able to get up and move around or did they keep you in the bed? No, I was- I was able to get up and move around. And really didn't, the scariest part was at the hospital when we went in there because nobody was hurt terribly bad. And I, you know I was hit in the neck but didn't feel bad or anything, but the doctor came out and said, “Sargent Hansmann.” And I said, “yeah” and he said, “I want you to just remain still,” and I said, “okay what's going on.” And they brought out a gurney and laid me down on a gurney and told me not to move. And they took me in, what they found out was one piece of the shrapnel, a long piece was lodged between my jugular vein and my spinal cord. And it was very close to both and so they had I guess some tricky surgery to get it out without messing something up worse. But it -it all turned out fine. And it healed up but some of the shrapnel stills in there but. (1:01:41) �Interviewer: Okay now we were talking about you were being treated at Cam Ranh Bay. They've taken, done the operation, you’re recovering from that, you can kind of get around and that sort of thing. So, what point soon, was there- was there anything else about that stay that you wanted to bring into the story before we take you back to your unit. It was a, everything went well with the recovery, spent some time going to movies, doing some things that you, most people would consider kind of normal and yeah it was a- it was a good time frame. Interviewer: So, it was kind of a vacation? Yeah, it was kind of a vacation. Interviewer: Alright so when do you rejoin your unit? Rejoined the unit in… some time the very first part of June, and went back to the unit, and was basically, I think we, I rejoined them on Ripcord. I flew out to Ripcord and then was out there for a few days because I think the unit was- was providing perimeter security but then sometime very shortly after that we went back out to the field. (1:03:00) Interviewer: Okay. So, we walked off Ripcord, somebody else took our place and we were out in the field and that was until… June 12th my son was born. Interviewer: Okay. And he contracted, my wife had problems in childbirth, and he contracted double pneumonia and was in really tough shape. Well of course I didn't know all this was going on back there at that point in time, it was a few days after he was born that helicopter came out and had a chaplain on it. And once again, they said, “we need to see Sergeant Hansmann.” And whenever that �happened something bad was going on, he came over and he says, “I've got this for you Sarge,” and it was a Western Union telegram. And the only thing that it says on the telegram is, “your wife has given birth to a son. Baby's condition terminal. Wife's condition doubtful.” And that's all I. Interviewer: Wow That's all that was on it. So, I was needless to say very upset, emotional, and he said, “Sarge,” the chaplain said, “Sarge we're gonna take you back, you've been granted a 30-day emergency leave to go back home, take care of your family.” So, got on the helicopter, went back still have no idea what's going on, and no way to find out what's going on. Went back to the- to the base and turned in all my gear, everything and first sergeant was there and he- he helped me with getting all of the everything processed and everything done that needed to do and was very compassionate with what was going on and helped me get all that done. Got on plane and went down to, I supposed to Cam Ranh or Danang somewhere and got on a bird to go back home, flew back home flew into SeaTac again and it was then in Seattle that I was finally able to make phone call. And got ahold of- of the family and found out that my son had survived, and my wife was doing fine and that by the time I got home from Seattle they were gonna be able to come home, so, everything turned out beautifully. But and- and the backstory to that, my wife's doctor who was delivering, delivered the baby and everything was a Vietnam vet. He was an Army doctor in Vietnam, so he knew what procedures it took to get me home and all that and he did. And so, my son recovered from pneumonia and although it stunted his growth some, he's only 6’5 and 230. But- but everything turned out well and so I got to spend 30 days here in the States and then the- the hard part was I had to get on that plane and come back. So, then the, it was probably 14th of July or something like that I came back to Vietnam. Went back up, took several �days to get from Cam Ranh back up to the company unit to get my gear and everything and it was- was getting ready to go back out to Ripcord. Well that got into the, right around the 20th or so of July. (1:07:16) Interviewer: Okay. And Top came down and said, “Sarge we're getting ready to pull everybody off that hill. There's no sense in you going out there.” So, I was, I waited then and rejoined my group when they came back, I was on the pad as they came back. Interviewer: Alright and what had you been able to learn during that time about what had happened at of Ripcord while you were gone? It, just the stories that first sergeant and I would sit down, and- and he would share with me what was going on, and how bad it was. And- and all the things that had happened, and at- at that point in time I was, that was the beginning of my struggle with survival skills I guess, is this ain’t good. Interviewer: Because you had missed, because your company had been up there in the first three weeks of July and that's when the base came under heavy bombardment. Eventually helicopter crashed on the 18th, blew up the ammo dump then after that they kind of had to go. But those guys had been through all of that and you were off doing all this other stuff. Yeah. (1:08:30) Interviewer: Okay so, now… on, so the 23rd of July is when they actually evacuate the base, what did you do that day? �That day I was down on the helicopter pad and just helping the guys with their stuff, greeting old friends, and- and consoling them and just, you know and they, there was absolutely no, they didn't feel from their perspective like I felt in mine. That I wasn't there to help they said, “Sergeant nothing you could do. There was nothing we could do,” you know you just but… Interviewer: Okay, the company didn't lose too many men at- at that point. No. Interviewer: They had taken some wounded, not too many killed, but still they've gone through all that and- and you hadn’t. Once they're back, now what happens to you and the company? We went, I think we went to Eagle Beach and- and then we're, you know kind of getting everything realigned and kind of figured out. Everybody's trying to figure out where do we go from here and what do we do. So, we went, eventually we went back out in the field again. And in different AOs I don't even remember where. (1:09:52) Interviewer: Was this, it's still in the mountains or hill country? Yeah- yeah it was and so we went back out and we were doing that and- and then I went on an R&R because I hadn't taken one and I was still eligible for one. Around the 8th of August as I recall and met my wife in Hawaii, which was again you know a relatively short period of time since I'd seen her. Was- was really fun and we had a good time together and- and after that went back with the company doing the same old things again and the same procedure, you know being in the jungle and whatnot. Interviewer: Now was there much contact at that time? Was it quiet? (1:10:41) �It- it seemed like it was a lot quieter at that point in time. And I had gotten to know our first sergeant really well and- and I told him, “okay at some point in time as I'm getting shorter here or have seen, you know, been wounded once, and have- have been through several things, if the opportunity presents itself and you can pull me out of the field, send me to…” I said, “I'm trained in mortars.” I said, you know, “just send me to a mortar platoon,” and, you know that’d be good if it works out. And it took a while but sometime in later September then something opened up and he said, “Sarge, gonna move into- in the mortar platoon for your last period of time,” and so I was up there and- and got to know a lot of the guys, became a squad leader there in the mortar platoon didn't know anything about mortars because I had forgotten everything I’d learned but there again I was in the same situation and they knew where I’d been and what I’d done so they were very comfortable with, they knew their jobs they didn't need me. And so, I just did whatever was necessary to help them out and make their job easier. So, the last six weeks or so I was there and that was a- that was really a good deal and to put it time-wise in perspective you think, well that's doesn't add up to a year, but while I was home for that 30-day leave my father in law made me an offer; he was a farmer and he said- he said, “what are you gonna do when you came home?” And I was, in college I was an accounting major and I said, “I cannot see myself sittin’ in an office,” I said, “I'd go nuts.” And he says, “well you want to come home and help farm?” I said, “I'd love to.” So, I put in for an early out to go home and help with the harvest, which was very legitimate and so I ended up getting an early out to come home and help farm in November. (1:13:10) Interviewer: Alright now the meantime I guess with the mortar platoon were they usually on a fire base somewhere? �Yes, I was on Fire Base Kathryn and that's where I met Pops, John Henry. And a- a lot of thethe guys, matter in fact one of the guys I had been through NCO school with was there as well so and it was relatively quiet at that point in time. Interviewer: Now would the base take any incoming of one kind or another was it just quieter? Very little, if any. Interviewer: Alright. Very little, we would hear some AK fire every now and then and- and of course having been out there and been involved in several different contacts and fire fights and whatnot. I- I could tell how far away it was, I can tell which direction it was firing, and all that and it was kind of funny because the mortar guys would, as soon as they hear an AK go off they’d grab a helmet, and would bury underground and I was standing up there looking around because you can tell what's going on and you, when you need to get down and when you don’t. (1:14:16) Interviewer: Yeah, alright so the, at some point back before the end of Ripcord, sometimes mortars would actually go out in the field at least briefly with- with units. Yeah. Interviewer: But you weren't doing that at this time? No, we were not doing that. Interviewer: Okay a couple other kinds of questions is sort of a lot of stereotypes about Vietnam and what went on over there and- and so forth. One of them has to do with just the question of race and racial tensions, did you observe any of that yourself or? �No, we really, we had no problems whatsoever. We had at some point in time there, I don't remember, we had a platoon sergeant come in. His name of Jim Burdette, and very educated, he had a master’s degree in mathematics. And he was an E-6 and, but he was drafted just like the rest of us, went through NCO school, very intelligent, six-foot five black guy who- who commanded a lot of respect but was a really, super intelligent, nice guy. And that kind of kept I think any racial, that- that kept it down, although we didn't have any before that either. (1:15:44) Interviewer: Well you spent most of your time in the field too. Yeah and there's no room for that. Interviewer: Yeah- yeah and that again, that may apply to another one of the stereotypes that has to do with- with drug use, I mean when you get back… Absolutely none. Wouldn't stand for it, I- I wouldn't stand for it and neither did anybody else. And we just, there was something, now when they were in the rear area or at Eagle Beach or something like that, was some of that done? Could have been, I- I have no idea, but when we were in the field it was absolutely taboo. You- you didn't do that cause you were gonna get yourself killed and somebody else too, so. Interviewer: And also, how much did you see of the Vietnamese themselves; I mean did you have any Kit Carson Scouts around or anything like that? (1:16:34) We had a Kit Carson Scout on a few different occasions, not for long periods of time. We found them rather worthless because they didn't want to walk point, they didn't want to walk slack. They wanted to walk at the rear, and they wouldn't carry their share of the load, they wouldn't work, I, we, I had no use for ‘em personally but it's- it's kind of like scout dog philosophy and we �had that one episode with a scout dog that he led us right straight into an ambush and then the dog died and the handler got all shot up and- and all those kinds of things. Interviewer: Now the Kit Carson Scouts were supposed to be enemy soldiers who turn themselves in, who could then show things to you. And in some cases, seem to be people who are avoiding the South Vietnamese Army but- but so it kind of varied for how useful any of them were. So, you've got that, now did you see any Vietnamese civilians like on the base camps or around them? (1:17:41) Just back when we were in the rear, really didn't see, there were a few occasion when we saw some Montagnard’s, wood cutters used to call them they- they would be out cutting trees or whatever. And saw a few of those, but as far as much Vietnamese population, only in the rear area. If- if they were in the jungle and they were Vietnamese, they were- they were a target in our opinion. Interviewer: Yeah because there weren't really regular villages or things out there in that area. No there were not. Interviewer: Okay, now in the- in the rear area, I mean where these people who just working on the bases or where their villages around or? There were villages around and- and- and they- they were doing, you know hooch maids or whatever else and- and that type of stuff. Working in- in some of the mess halls and that kind of thing, so. (1:18:41) Interviewer: Yeah, but you didn't spend really any time in- in these built-up areas. �No, I didn’t. Interviewer: Particularly at all. So, okay and did you, what understanding did you have by the time you left, how did you view the war itself? Frustrated, would- would probably be the- the biggest word that would come to mind, simply because of my experience with Ripcord, you know we tried to take it in March, we tried to take it in April, we took it later on in April and established it, and we're up there, got a lot of guys killed, a ton of guys wounded. And we had no idea until decades later what kind of enemy force we were dealing with, and then ended up just walking away from ‘em and giving it all back to ‘em. And we, I have a hard time figuring out exactly what we accomplished. And my only way of justifying everything is somebody else has to live with the decisions that were made and why they were made. I only have to live with the decision that I did what my duty was as a soldier. (1:20:04) Interviewer: Right. And- and supported- supported the leadership by doing what they asked and supported my men by trying to take care of ‘em as best I could. Interviewer: Alright now what's the process for getting you home once you- you get orders, you can leave, now what do they do with you? It was just a matter of like a day or two before I was supposed to go home. Came back to the rear, got everything turned in, cleaned up, new set of fatigues, all those kinds of things. It was kind of a fast blur at that point, trying to say goodbye to people, and- and hoping that they made it. Got on the plane, went to Seattle, went through a process I think I was there probably a week or so. Processing out, getting a physical and- and- and got a new set of dress greens, and had a good meal and whatnot. And then went to the airport and I- I thought, boy can only be great from �here, and I walked in the airport and of course there's all the protesters. And had signs everywhere and I walked, first thing it is, I went to the bathroom, walked in there and here's a trash can overflowing with dressed greens. Guys didn't want to have to deal with all the protesters, so they put on the civilian clothes of course it's, you can tell a soldier that’s been in war real quick and it didn't do ‘em any good to change their clothes but that's what they did. And I thought that's really sad, that that is truly sad to see that, those dress greens just running out the top of a garbage can. That image is still burnt in my brain and I thought, okay guys, I just went through a war, if you think you're gonna get me to take this off I got news for you, have at it. So, I left mine on and very proudly walked out there. And they, I didn't have any, they weren't interested in- in real confrontation. They just- they just wanted to be loud, so I just ignored ‘em. Got on a plane and flew home. (1:22:40) Interviewer: Alright and so when do you actually get back home? It’s now November, December? It had to be- it had to be in November. Interviewer: Okay. And I actually felt a commitment because I had been given the drop to go home and farm. I- I got home and the next day I was on a tractor. I and that's one of my bigger regrets is that I didn't take time to decompress, you know that's a matter of a week earlier I'd been in the jungle carrying a rifle and shooting at people. Interviewer: Yeah. And I didn't come home and take the time to decompress because I felt they gave me this drop, it's my responsibility to do what I said I was gonna do. So, I went home, and I farmed. �(1:23:30) Interviewer: Okay and so now what was the readjustment process like for you then? It was a- it was a struggle. I was a different individual and to try and come home, and I was very devoted to my family and my wife, but I didn't know how to do that. And she didn't know how to react to me either and it was- it was hard. It was- it was a tough experience for us to- to try and live through that being two totally different people, because now she was a mother and I hadn't been there for that process and I was a just a totally different… the pictures look like ten years difference and so.. Interviewer: And so how did you deal with that or sort things out? (1:24:25) Kept it inside. Tried to do what I thought people wanted to see. It wasn't exactly who I was and didn't talk about it, and that was the- that was a problem and didn't discover how big of a problem until years and years later. And didn't really talk a whole lot about it until my first Ripcord Reunion. Interviewer: Okay and when was that? That was the first year it was in Indianapolis. Interviewer: Okay. This is my fourth, so we were two years at Myrtle Beach and then two years before that in Indianapolis. Interviewer: Okay so 2011 was the… Yeah. Interviewer: Alright and did you manage to stay married all that time? Interesting that, now we're gonna get kind of personal. �Interviewer: Well if, this is you can talk about it or not. I will. (1:25:26) Interviewer: That’s… I will- I will. There’s no holds barred here. My wife and I were married for thirty years and it just through the process of the war and whatnot and a lot of other issues, she said that she wanted a divorce. And we went to counseling and whatnot and the counselor began to drag out, the psychologist, began to drag out some of this Vietnam stuff. He sensed that that was part of it, and he started part of that. And Laura began to hear some things that she had never heard before. And but anyway she filed for divorce and we got divorced in 1998. And she, I- I didn't want it and she called me the day the divorce was final and said, “Paul, I think I made a mistake.” And my comment to that was, “no shit.” But- but I said, “you got what you wanted,” so I walked away. And it was about, well 1999 December 23rd we got remarried and have been together and happy ever since. (1:26:55) Interviewer: And so now after that- that was kind of a product of all of that, the counseling, were you starting to get some counseling or some support by this time? Not a lot at that point in time. I- I became, because she started asking more questions then. And so, I did start to open up more, and then along came a job change and- and some other things went on and we moved from Iowa to Illinois. And eventually came in contact with Craig Van Hout and- and talked to me some and then he talked about there was an Illinois group that they were getting together, for just the guys from Illinois are gonna have lunch. And it was relatively close by, half an hour. Apprehensive about going to that and whatever but Laura finally prodded �me into doing that and we did and met some guys, and we went out laid a wreath at the cemetery there and whatnot. And got to know the guys; Floyd Alexander, Dale Lane and some of those guys, George Murphy and they said, “you've got to go to a reunion Paul. You’ve got to.” And Floyd it was just, it was fascinating because he helped me out back in the, your mind you wonder whether or not you remember the things that really happen. And so, I was talking with Floyd about April 1st and he said, “April 1st, that was the only time I was in Vietnam that we had to get resupplied with illumination rounds in the night to fire illumination for you guys.” And so, he just verified. (1:28:43) Interviewer: Yeah. You know the whole thing. So, anyway then I said “okay,” so I signed up for the reunion in- in 2011 and we went, and it was probably the best thing I ever did. And Laura's comment who was a speech and English teacher said it was fascinating to sit by the side and just watch you guys, everybody’s speaking the same language. You don't have to explain what a CA is, or what an LZ is, or what- what an RPG is, or, you don't have to explain anything. You just talk to one another because you all speak the same language. And so, it- it just kind of grew from there and- and she still thinks I've got PTSD which yeah, I probably do. [unintelligible] Interviewer: Yeah, so, it’s the sort of thing where different people deal with it different ways. You actually did what an awful lot of the World War II and Korea guys did, and that is you- you're carrying the baggage with you and you just kind of put it away. And it does affect your behavior and how you interact with people in certain ways and that sort of stuff. So, likely yeah if you go to the psychologist, they would diagnose that, but I'm not a �psychologist so I'm just a historian but I’ve seen a lot of that. But you know, but I mean that’s what you were always expected to do. Was just suck it up… (1:30:10) That’s what my dad did. Interviewer: And go forward and sometimes that works and sometimes if you're able to talk about, you work it through, you get control of it, and it doesn't rule you in the same way. And clearly your relationship with your wife has changed because of it, so that may help and certainly connecting with the guys who were there can be tremendously helpful. And in the meantime, what it's done is it's enabled you to sort out your story well enough that you've done a very good job of telling it today. Thank you. Interviewer: So, I’d like to thank you for coming and sharing. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HansmannP1891V Title A name given to the resource Hansmann, Paul (Interview transcript and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-31 Description An account of the resource Paul Hansmann was born in Cincinnati, Ohio on August 28, 1948. Hansmann was drafted in 1969 and underwent raining at Fort Bragg, Fort McClellan, Fort Benning, and Fort Polk. He was then selected for NCO school where he trained according to the war in Vietnam. He was then deployed to Camp Evans in Vietnam with the B Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. He conducted Search and Destroy missions and was chosen to be on a battalion Killer Team in the mountains around Ripcord AO before the assault of the firebase. He was later stationed at Firebase Kathryn before recieving an early-out to go home and help his father in law farm in Iowa. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hansmann, Paul N. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6103cb62c135a5d0e4f0c861e49bf362.mp4 9d715ddafd1a22ccdc2fe219527cb601 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bba45f2818e69add2d6189707f242ed3.pdf 284d55b31a3e741422f1ff303cff4079 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Laura Hansmann Interview Length: (35.32) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're at the 2018 Ripcord Association Reunion we’re talking now with Laura Hansmann of Coon Rapids, Minnesota and Laura is the wife of Paul Hansmann who we've interviewed previously and served in the Ripcord Campaign and she is gonna give her side of the story. And so, Laura begin with a little bit of background on yourself and to begin with where and when were you born? I was born January 23rd, 1947 in Eldora, Iowa. I grew up on an Iowa farm. Interviewer: Okay. Worked hard, my dad was a good farmer, hard worker, I had two sisters and a brother. Interviewer: Okay and then did your father have any other occupation beyond farming or was he able to support himself entirely off of the farm? He supported us with farming, however he really was involved in a lot of organizations in the county and so he ran for state representative in 1970 I think, and he lost but then he ran for state senator and he was an Iowa State Senator for 22 years. (1.09) Interviewer: Okay, alright and then what part of Iowa are you in? Central Iowa, north central Steamboat Rock, little town, out on the farm, in fact we still have the family farm. It's probably 80 miles north of Des Moines. Interviewer: Alright and then did you finish high school? Yes. Interviewer: Okay when did you graduate from high school? �1965. Interviewer: Okay and what did you do after you got out of high school? Well my grandmother was quite a lady and she told, said that she would pay tuition for the first year of college if we went to a Christian college. Well my father decided to enter me into a speech contest where I had to write a speech and present it, and I won the National, so I got my scholarship from that for one year and then my grandma of course picked up the next year. So, I went to Cedarville College, it’s now a university in Cedarville, Ohio. Interviewer: Okay. And graduated from there in 1969. Interviewer: Alright now where did you meet your husband? In college we were both in college choir and they arranged us by height. He was the tallest guy and my roommate, and I were the tallest girls, so we stood on each side of him. So that's where I met him. (2.22) Interviewer: Alright and of course he's in college and of course the Vietnam War at that point is going on. At, and so is it, is he, are you thinking about, I mean if you're- you’re getting serious and so forth and you're going to get married and there's a prospect there and being drafted. You know it's interesting we were sheltered at the college about what went on in the world and we didn't even think of Vietnam. It just wasn't, in fact Paul and I just discussed this recently, he left school and I stayed there, we got married in 1968. Interviewer: Okay. �So of course, if you're not, weren't in school then you were eligible for the draft and it caught him. (3.11) Interviewer: Okay now I'm sure we have it in his interview but just for the audience here did he leave school just because he was tired of it or he wanted to do something else? Yeah, he just, he you know he wanted to do something else and wanted to get married, so he needed to support us. So, we got married and then in ‘68 of June and then we, I didn't go back to school the first quarter my senior year. Interviewer: Okay. And then he got a draft notice, so in February of 1969 he left to go to and so I was in school then to finish my college degree. Interviewer: Alright how did your family feel about all of this stuff? You know I don't remember I; we were not living near them. Interviewer: Right. …at the time because we were in Ohio and his family was in Illinois and mine in Iowa but just and it was just what was going on. Interviewer: Yeah let's see and where did you actually have the wedding? (4.15) In Iowa, in our, in my home church in Eldora. Interviewer: Okay, alright so he was an acceptable choice? Oh yeah, I think so. Interviewer: Well he was going to the right school. Too bad, he was, yes. �Interviewer: Okay yeah and what kind of work was he doing? Well he was at that time, his father was a superintendent of a bakery, commercial bakery so he helped in the bakery and when we were in Ohio then he got a job in the bakery just driving the bread truck. Getting up super early in the morning and- and working while I was at school. Interviewer: Alright and then so you were still basically in Cedarville at that point or? Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: Okay alright and then were you watching, would you watch TV news and things like that? You know not a whole lot. Like I said we were pretty sheltered we were busy. I was in school, he was working, and yeah, we knew about Vietnam, but it just wasn't something that we thought a lot about. We were pretty naive. (5.13) Interviewer: Okay and so now what, was there any kind of anti-war movement at Cedarville or was that foreign? No, no that wasn't- wasn’t allowed and it, and we wouldn't have done that anyway though. Interviewer: Yeah, okay so now beginning of ’69, he heads off to training and then at that point while he's still in the States and in training how much did you see or hear from him? Well when he was in basic and then the AIT I didn't see him. Interviewer: Okay. But then he was went to NCO school. So, in Fort Benning I went to Fort Benning and then he went on to Fort Polk and I was with him there. In fact, a buddy of his who got drafted at the same time, his wife and I both went to Benning and cause they went through, all the training together in the States. So, we went there and lived off base, and we got to see them on the weekends. �Interviewer: Okay so you're going down at Fort Benning Georgia and this is now what middle of 1969? Yes. (6.19) Interviewer: At that point, okay describe a little bit what life there was like? Well I got a job as a babysitter, we lived in a mobile home, a small mobile home, and Shar and I lived together and the guys course were on base, we could go on base on Wednesday nights and see ‘em and then they actually got the weekends off every weekend so we could… So, it was- it was nice to be there, but it was lonely because we didn't know anybody of course. Interviewer: Alright now, was, did you notice kind of a- a different situation as far as race relations or things like that from where you would be? I mean did you notice, the south wasn't officially segregated at that point, but did anything seem different or did that not register with you? That didn't register, you know I grew up in rural Iowa so there, you know I wasn't accustomed to other races or, it's not that I had any problem with them I just hadn't grown up around other races. Interviewer: Yeah so but then I guess the question then, did you see how black and white people in the civilian world related to each other? Yes, yes. (7.31) Interviewer: And did that seem different from what you were used to? Yeah it was different, it was different, but I didn't, it just it didn't affect me, I guess. Interviewer: Okay so now you go from there and to Fort Polk, Louisiana, and what was… �That was a culture shock because Fort Polk is nothing like Fort Benning, I always said Fort Polk was kind of the arm pit of the United States. It was, we lived in a 10 by 50 trailer the four of us, yeah, the four of us did. And cockroaches and it just was nasty, and we'd get up early in the morning and fix breakfast for the guys before they went on base which about four o'clock in the morning and we’d opened the cupboard door and the roaches would run. And it so it was not nice and when we moved from Benning to Polk, we had to pawn some things cause we didn't have any money so that was rough too. Guys could eat on base but Shar and I had to scrounge. (8.33) Interviewer: Okay and were you able to get jobs in Louisiana? We didn't in Louisiana. Interviewer: Okay and then how long were you there? Well it was his OJT, so it was probably eight weeks maybe, eight/ eight and a half. Interviewer: So, he basically did one cycle of… Yes, yes. Interviewer: The training as a very- very new sergeant yeah. And it was during that time that I got pregnant and we'd discussed it, Paul was not in favor of it and at that point I thought well you may be going somewhere and not coming back, so I wanted to do that. Interviewer: Alright so now from that stint does he get any leave time, or does he get straight, sent straight to Vietnam? We did get leave over Christmas. Interviewer: Okay. So, we went back to Iowa and Illinois where his parents lived and kind of split the time there. �Interviewer Okay. So, he had that time. Interviewer: Alright so you're, now you're and then basically do you go and stay with your parents or? Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, I lived with my parents while he was in Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay now what was it like to send him off to Vietnam? (9.44) It was horrible. I just remember we took him; my, I was in Iowa at the time we took him to the airport and when he took off, I just collapsed because it- it was real. Interviewer: Okay and then once he left, how long did it take before you heard anything from him? I don't, I have all of his letters I kept them all. He couldn't keep mine because of the humidity and the rot in Vietnam, but I, it was several weeks because you know in country and they had to go through some training or whatever to adapt themselves to Vietnam. So, it was a while before I heard from him because he went in January, so it was probably sometime in February that I heard from him first. Interviewer: Okay now once he left did you pay more attention to the news or whatever you could learn about what was happening over there? Yes then- then you know it, all we had because you know we didn't have the communications like the soldiers do now, so all we had was the six o'clock news and I glued myself to the TV every night to see what was going on and of course they showed battles. That's what they had �and that you know the numbers of men that were killed and so every time I'd watch it, I'd look to see well maybe I'll see Paul. Of course, I didn’t, and I never would have cause there were no cameras where he was. But it was it was hard, very hard. (11.22) Interviewer: Alright now your back home in Iowa I mean did the people in the community know what your situation was or? Yeah it was small community and of course they knew he was gone and that I was there and, but people didn't understand, and I think this was probably countrywide, you know there were the protests going on and we saw that on TV as well. But- but nobody said much, I was pregnant, and I can remember one experience my dad and I sang together at a church function and after we, and I was very pregnant and one of the men after wards said something to my dad. And he says, “how can a man go to a war and leave a pregnant wife at home and to live with her parents. I just don't understand that. How can that be?” So, he didn't- he didn't understand what was going on and there was, that was just kind of I think the whole attitude. Interviewer: Okay now how old do you think that man was? He was probably around my dad's age. (12.34) Interviewer: Okay so he didn't remember the World War II stuff when everybody did that? He must not have been in World War II I don't know. Interviewer: Yeah but it was certainly a fairly common thing at that point in time. But okay so he's just, now he's just looking at this situation kind of seeing it that way. Yeah. �Interviewer: Alright now again the small-town Iowa you weren't gonna be confronting any direct antiwar anything. No. Interviewer: Okay. No there was none of that. Interviewer: And did people ask after him or did they just… Yes, yeah- yeah and especially I'm involved in church and so yes, they were, they wanted to know how he was and how were things going and all I could tell them was from what the letters said. Interviewer: Okay, and what kinds of things did he put in the letters? Not a lot, he said very little in fact I just was going over them recently and mostly it was, “wouldn't it be nice if I could come home when the baby's born, maybe something could happen, and well you know I could come home, see if that, you know see if I can come home.” And but he wouldn't, he just say, “it's hot here and, or it's rainy,” but he never really did say what he was doing, which was probably a good thing. (13.48) Interviewer: Yeah sort of one- one of the issues with letters and things like that, the government by and large didn't censor communications sent from Vietnam, but the men by and large censored themselves. Exactly. Interviewer: Okay, now some people used cassette tapes or things like that, did he ever do any of that and? �No, and you know some of the guys that are here at the reunion they took cameras and they had pictures. He was in the jungle and he had a rucksack that weighed I forget how many pounds and he says, “I just didn't want any more weight in my rucksack.” So, he didn't have a camera or a cassette recorder, he couldn't, he didn't carry anything except what he needed. Interviewer: Right, okay and did you have any sense of where he was generally? Was he allowed to tell you that or did you figure that out? (14.37) Yeah, he- he did say he was in the A Shau Valley, and that's pretty much you know so then I'd get a map and see where is that? You know it was pretty up, far up north near the DMZ and. Interviewer: And did he ever mention the Ripcord Firebase or any of the other places? He mentioned a couple places, I in fact I was looking to see if he had mentioned Ripcord because that was, until he came back that was unfamiliar to me. Camp Evans cause I know they were there. Interviewer: Yeah. For a little bit and then after he was wounded, he went to Cam Ranh Bay to recoup so those names were in the letters. Interviewer: Right, yeah and so that's, you just have, okay so when did you have the baby? (15.27) Had the baby, well that's another story because I was due July 3rd. Paul was wounded May 5th. Interviewer: Okay. A couple days after that I went to town with my mom to mail him a seven-pound box of cookies. So, he could share with his buddies and went to the post office and then we went to the flower shop for some reason, I don't remember it was a Western Union place too. I didn't know it at the �time but they had gotten the telegram at the Western Union about Paul's being wounded but she didn't say anything and so we went home. My dad was in the kitchen, he's farming, okay this is in May when he’s out in the fields which was unusual and he met me in the kitchen and told me that the County Sheriff had gone out to him in the field to tell him, small town. Interviewer: Yeah. Tell him what had happened and then Dad came and told me that Paul had been wounded. Then we got the telegram from the flower shop in town. (16.34) Interviewer: Okay. So- so anyway, that's the back story. Interviewer: So, that- that- that’s there, so that happens in May and then. Lance was born June 12th he was due July 3rd. My doctor was a Vietnam vet, he said it was probably… sums the trauma of learning all that which caused Lance to come early. Interviewer: Okay but there's still a gap of several weeks between when you got the news. Yes, yeah. Interviewer: Was that, did that, did you then have problems with the pregnancy or did this- this just something that just happened sooner than it should have? It just happened sooner, yeah. I did get a letter from Paul you know saying, “I'm in the hospital, I'm okay.” So, you know that was good. Interviewer: So how much of a lag time was there between the telegram and the letter? Oh, it would have been at least a week and a half I would say at least. (17.28) �Interviewer: Alright now did the telegram say enough to give you an idea of what the situation was or? It just said that he had taken, he was under fire and I know that after the fact he told me that it was at night and they couldn't get them off where they were. The hill where they were so he directed fire and continued to- to help his men well because he was a sergeant so, to help his men until they could get him in the next day and he- he was wounded so he got accommodation for that. Interviewer: Okay so how did you sort of deal with that in the meantime? What kind of stuff ran through your head? I- I didn't know what to think you know I knew he had been wounded. He told me he was gonna be okay, so I took him for, at his word. Interviewer: Yeah, I guess before that, before you actually hear from him, you know that first week. Oh yeah, I- I was a mess. I didn't know what to think. (18.30) Interviewer: Alright so now, okay so you've got at least some level of reassurance, okay this is gonna be alright. How long was it before he came back? Well because Lance was born three weeks early the first night, he had, my water broke gradually. So, he had a sporadic pneumonia and about didn't make it. So, my doctor of course who was the Vietnam vet said, “we need to bring Paul home.” So, they called the Red Cross and they contacted Paul out in the jungle, brought him in and he didn't know anything. He was told that the baby was born dead and the wife was near death and he didn't know anything different, until he got stateside in, at Fort Washington or Fort Lewis in Washington and called home. �Interviewer: Okay. And I was actually fine, and Lance was fine and went home the day that Paul got back into the states. (19.35) Interviewer: Okay now was this still just a temporary leave for him, or had he? 30 days. Interviewer: Okay so he got a 30-day leave at- at that point. Right. Interviewer: Alright. Which was wonderful for me, you know, and I got to see him, and he was so thin he had lost so much weight. I you know he- he's 6’4” and weighed about a hundred sixty pounds, so. Interviewer: Wow. He was so thin. Interviewer: Okay. But he didn't talk about it much, he didn't talk about what he'd been doing and at that point in June he'd been on Ripcord. Interviewer: Okay did you have a sense of how long he'd been in the hospital? He said he was there for about a week and then recovered for a week and they send him back out. Interviewer: Yeah, okay so now, so basically, he doesn't, now did he seem I mean aside from being thinner, did he seem at all different at that point? �Yeah, he was different because he was just a fun-loving, joke-telling guy and he was just much more serious and much more quiet when he came home. Excited to see his son but just he was different. (20.47) Interviewer: And then what was it like sending him back off again? Yeah that was hard, and it, you know he's told me later it was hard for him because he knew he, what he was going back to. I didn't, I just knew he was leaving again so it was tough. Interviewer: Okay and then once we, once he goes back then does he start writing again to kind of he picks up where he left off? Yes, he would- he would continue to write but not say much. Interviewer: Alright so then how much longer did he have on his tour at that point? Well he asked for an early out to farm with my dad, so he was released the beginning of November. Interviewer: Okay alright so he's kind of out of that and now once he's back for good, did you kind of observe him having to readjust to civilian life or? Well it's interesting because I didn't, I, he- he had been gone, it was time for us to raise a family and so let's just forget about it. Forget about Vietnam, you're done with that, let's just move on and that was my attitude, not realizing at the time you know a week before he'd been in the jungles of Vietnam. No downtime, nothing, he just was out on a tractor on a farm in Iowa harvesting corn. And he told me later that there were times when he wanted to just get off the tractor and we had a motorcycle, he wanted to get on that motorcycle and just run, and just go, and never come back. But he knew he had a family so he couldn't do that, but it was, he was- he was different, and he was jumpy. He would, I would wake up in the night and find him on the �floor sleeping. There would be times when I would I remember one night in particular I was laying there and he'd kinda dozed off and I, we'd had, wasn't an argument, but just a disagreement or something and I wanted to remedy that and I kind of poked him with my elbow. Never did I do that again because he jumped out of bed screaming and ran out of the house and outside and he was just shaking. You know it's just those kinds of things started happening. (23.16) Interviewer: Okay and then did that stuff sort of get worse over time or how did it, things work through that? It- it, kind, that kind of got better, you know that, I mean it took time. But I- I, what happened was I learned what I could and couldn't do. It was interesting because just a few weeks ago I was talking to a really good friend of mine and it dawned on me that my husband has had PTSD for forty-eight years. Interviewer: Yeah. Through the whole time and you know I can go back and- and talk about some of the things that happened in our marriage and I realized that it was just a result of Vietnam. It changed our whole family, you know it affected our children, it affected me, and he- he says that too. You know he's, he realizes it. It's, the PTSD has changed, you know its kind of melded into different things over the years, but… Interviewer: Yeah well, they're different components and you get people have different combinations and there is kind of that- that- that reflex action which is really very direct and standard PTSD. That's the kind of thing that- that sometimes will get treated with drugs but then there's a lot of other things that you're carrying as well. There is sort of a moral injury, and just, and there can be survivor guilt, there can be a lot of other kinds of �things that go on in their head it really doesn't, is different from PTSD and drugs make those things worse. Did if he ever get formally diagnosed with PTSD? (24.55) No, when he came back from Vietnam he says, “I want nothing to do with the military, I want, I don't want anything.” So, he never did until we moved from Iowa to Illinois in 1999. And there, there was a clinic and so he decided he'd go to that clinic, so that's when, actually there was a veteran's office in our town in Illinois. So, he went there got his records all straightened out and then he went to clinics. So, then he started doctoring with the VA in Illinois. And then when we moved to Minnesota, they have a great VA system, so he's used them for sure. Interviewer: Okay that’s sort of, that's- that’s a very long time. Of course, it took a good long time for the government or anyone to really even recognize sort of what PTSD was. Yes, yeah in fact I looked that up because PTSD was not even a term. Interviewer: No. Until 1980. Interviewer: Yeah and it took several years after that before the kind of the VA kind of got on board and decided to deal with it. Right. So, yeah so, it's so, I guess to the extent that you can kind of describe sort of some of the effects of all of this on your family or what you think was different because he had to deal with this? (26.09) I felt like I had to walk on eggshells a lot with him. There was a lot of anger and just recently Paul said that anger was his defense mechanism and he's worked on alleviating anger and now �he's feeling a lot of emotion, instead of the anger. So, because he was that way, I mean it's not that we had a bad family life you know. Interviewer: Yeah. But our son who was born of course when he was in Vietnam, he and Paul would butt heads a lot and I would have to be the mediator and say, “okay this is what he said, now this is what you said, and this is, you're really saying the same thing.” So, I did a lot of that. Lance, I was his English teacher in high school, and I assigned a term paper and Lance wanted to write about Vietnam, well he wanted to interview Paul. So, I had to go to Paul and ask if it would be okay that Paul interviewed him and because Paul never talked about Vietnam. It was just he never talked about it, he would tell a few funny stories once in a while, but he never really discussed it. So, I went to Paul and he thought about it and he said, “okay but it's got to be in one sitting.” You know, just one time. So, I sat in the living room while Lance interviewed Paul and talked about it, well it was in the evening which was not real smart because after that was all over then Paul had nightmares and flashbacks and stuff that night so but- but Lance at least got the gist of some of the things, and Paul shared a few things with him about what he went through but really not too much in depth. It wasn't until several years later while Paul and I were with a couple out in the woods, we had a campfire, and Paul started talking about it, and it was the first, I was just in shock because he had never said anything about any of his experiences and I always felt like that was kind of the watershed moment, you know he just started. And people would ask him about it, but he wouldn't tell them a whole lot unless it was somebody he knew and because he said, “well unless you've been there you just don't understand.” Which and he wouldn't even, he started sharing more things with me too at the time, but there were, I mean there were things that I could and couldn't do, you know he kind of wanted me around a lot and so there were things I �wouldn't get involved in because of that. I did of course get involved in the, I was a teacher, I taught, but it was just, it was hard, and you know I've heard people say that marriage is hard but it's really hard with a Vietnam vet. (29.09) Interviewer: Yeah and of course you- you get this- this sort of change to some extent of the person that you married. Yes. Interviewer: They go away and they come back, in some ways they’re somebody else, which is not a standard experience in a marriage. Right. Interviewer: Where you don't have that kind of thing going on. Right, yeah in one year he, I said he aged ten years in that one year. Now I think that overtime kind of leveled out, but yeah, he was not the fun, loving, jokester, he didn't have that twinkle, he didn't have the laugh, he just, he was very subdued, very serious. Interviewer: So, does some of that guy come back? Yes, and that came back the first time he came to the Ripcord Reunion. He had known, I didn't know about this, but he had known about the reunions and had never said much. I think he got the newsletter et cetera and Craig Van Hout, one of the guys that comes to the reunion. Interviewer: Yeah. Contacted and said, “Paul you really need to go to these reunions.” And so, they had an Illinois gathering just the guys from Illinois and I talked him into going cause it was just probably six guys. (30.16) �Interviewer: Yeah. And wives. So, we went he's, we sat, we were going to a restaurant and he sat there, he says, “I don't know about this, I just, I'm not sure.” I said, “yeah.” Well then Dale Lane came and came up to the car he recognized that this must be the guy and that was it, you know then he talked to him and we, it was really cool and then Dale Cooper and Dale Lane and one other guy… Interviewer: Let’s see, LaGrange maybe or? No, it's Murphy. Interviewer: Okay, let’s see, George? George, yes, took me aside at different times and said, “you need to get him to the Ripcord Reunions,” and I said, “I'll try my best.” Well then, we did come that year in Indianapolis Interviewer: Okay so what year was that? 2011. Interviewer: Okay, hey first year I went. Was it? Yeah same time, yeah. And I just, it was amazing to me because I sat at the tables and listened to these guys talk and I said, “they're talking the same language.” You know here he couldn't talk, tell other people about what he'd been through or what was going on because nobody understood. These guys did and I think that probably helped him more than anything, and he found connections with these guys and in different battles that he'd been in, skirmishes you know that had support, and so he was able to put some pieces together and timelines together. (31.44) Interviewer: Yeah sort of getting control of- of what happened to you on- on some level. Yeah, he said, “I guess I wasn't imagining that, I guess it did happen.” �Interviewer: And- and- and that's something that- that affects a whole lot of trauma survivors of one kind or another and you know we see a lot of that today. Very different kinds of situations, but, and women who are victims of sexual assault or harassment or things like that, and then once they realize that they're really not alone in this and it's not their fault, then that changes. And- and for a lot of these guys it works that way too. Of course, today we have a- a lot of new veterans, people have come back from Iraq and Afghanistan and so forth and a lot of them are married or in relationships or things like that. Of course, now you have women who served over in these places. Sure. Interviewer: As- as well, I mean do you have any kind of advice or encouragement to offer family members and people who've done that kind of thing? (32.42) Just expect it to be different and- and support the veteran and talk to them, make them talk to you that's, I didn't do that for a long, long time. I just let it, I buried it and I think I was afraid to have him tell me or cause you know I, when I was teaching I had him come to the classroom and talk about Vietnam and I had coached the kids before he came and I said, “just be aware of the kind of questions you're asking and if he doesn't want to answer, he won't answer.” Of course, one of the kids says, “did you kill anybody?” You know that's the standard, and I thought I told them not to ask that question, but there are questions you can ask and I think for anyone dealing with a veteran you just have to be careful about the questions you ask and let them tell you what's going on in their heads and little by little. (33.43) �Interviewer: Okay and then you mentioned coming to reunions and so forth and you're listening to the veterans. Do you also find the- the wives have the same kind of experience as you did or? Yes, although you know I haven't found a lot of wives who were married to these veterans when they were in Vietnam. Either their marriages failed, or they weren't married, they were young you know so they weren't married. So, they're just a few that I've talked to that have had some of the same experiences that I have. Interviewer: But I guess a lot of them would have had to learn to live with…. Yes. Interviewer: …the- the aftereffects. Yes, yeah- yeah in fact we do talk about that and they say, “oh yeah that's happened, or yeah he's done this, and yes oh yeah same thing.” So, it's, I think it's common. Interviewer: Alright anything else you’d- you’d like to add to the story here, or other particular memories or impressions that you've got? (34.45) No, I think like I said, our marriage was hard and has been hard. I think that, you know just being together and supporting each other, and our faith has been a lot of that. You know I think if we haven't had that I don't know where he'd be, I'm not sure where I’d be but it's, you just gotta keep going. Interviewer: Alright, well I just like to thank you for taking the time to share this story, it's the kind of thing that a lot of people turns out are interested in and often does not get recorded at all, so thank you very much. You’re welcome. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HansmannL2277V Title A name given to the resource Hansmann, Laura (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-01 Description An account of the resource Laura Hansmann was born in Iowa in 1947. She is the wife of Vietnam veteran Paul Hannsman. Laura discusses the her homefront experiences during the war, the war's effect on her family, child birth while her husband was deployed, as well as the changes she saw as she traveled to various training locations with Paul. She says to expect veterans to be different when they return home and to be supportive by talking to them. She talks about PTSD and the way her husband opened up over time, advising peopel to careful and empathetic when helping a veteran suffering from PTSD. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hansmann, Laura R. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/049ef6bce8228d1602cbee889fdfce19.mp4 fd98391ec129e449d020b95bbddf70c7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e2072733ed3347e9ff1fe44883b48e96.pdf 46215f15e38c675de993351d4144c033 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Bill Gillesse Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Jennifer Hughey Interview length: 58:31 Smither: We’re talking today with Bill Gillesse of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project. Bill, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born? I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, a little over 90 years ago. What year was that? That was in 1926. Tell me a little bit about your family background. Where were your parents from? My parents came from the Netherlands in 1923 with four boys in steerage. I was the youngest, I was born five years later and my sister another two years after that. I was the youngest of the boys, and those boys were one year apart. They graduated from Grand Rapids High School, Grand Rapids South High, as I did later. They graduated in ’37, ’38, ’39, and ’40. The oldest one was called up early and went to fight with the 32nd Division National Guard. The youngest of that bunch in ’40 joined the Navy immediately and was at Pearl Harbor during the bombing. Your family has connections. They started the war and I ended it. Did you grow up speaking Dutch at home or were you speaking English? No, we spoke English. My dad had difficulty, but he always insisted, and he tried to speak English. My mother spoke what’s called Yankee Dutch. That’s a blend of the two. Unless you’re one or the other, you’re not gonna get it. That’s the way it was. What did your father do for a living? My father was a mason basically, he was a bricklayer. When he came to the old country he immediately worked on, in those days they were building a whole series of—Standard Oil was building—lots of stations, and he was in that cycle. They continued to build them as different cycles and different architecture. That’s what he did, and then in WPA he worked also, and he laid manholes, he worked in the manholes. Later, he had his own contracting business. [2:36] You mentioned the WPA, that’s a New Deal Program. Was he out of work for a while in the ‘30s and had to go to the WPA? Yes, that’s correct. In fact, I remember him going to work for the City of Grand Rapids on occasion to pay for his taxes, and of course we were all on script, so we would take the sled across St. Andrew’s Cemetery and number four fire bars and get our milk, prunes, and grapefruit, and so forth. �So, it was kind of lean times for a while back. Lean times, especially for laborers like my dad. But you were able to stay in high school and graduate from high school. Yes, actually my 18th birthday was in September, but I had enough credits, so I probably chose to go, and I was sitting in December then of that year. [3:38] Do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? How I remember about Pearl Harbor? How did you hear about it? My dad, mother, and I were riding to Lansing to visit a brother at that time, and driving back, that’s how I first heard about it. So, on a car radio? Car radio, yeah. In my 1939 Chevy. Did you know at the time that your brother was at Pearl Harbor, or did you find out about that later? No, because prior to that we had gotten letters from him from June of that year stating that “from now on my address will be APO San Francisco, so we didn’t know where he was. At what point did you find out he had been at Pearl Harbor? I really don’t know. At that point, I don’t know how soon it was that we found out, I can’t remember that. Do you think it might have been kind of a long time? I guess we kind of assumed where he was, because that’s where all Naval action took place. That was the main base of the Pacific fleet at that point. Yeah, and I know he was on a destroyer at that, I did know that, the name of the destroyer and so forth. Before the war started, did you pay much attention to the news, the war in Europe, that kind of thing. Definitely did, because I know we’ve got electricity in our house. Mind you, in the city of Grand Rapids, in the middle of the city, in 1936. And my Dad and I went to Sears Roebuck and got a Silvertone radio, and that was a highpoint in ’36. And you know what’s going on in Europe. So, my dad especially was very attentive to the news, he listened to the news. Gabriel Hader and you know, “there’s grave news tonight,” that’s the news we’d hear. [5:50] Of course, you still had relatives in the Netherlands at that point, so when the Germans go there in 1940, you’re aware of those things. Yeah, my mother had relatives there, my dad—when he came here—he had two sisters here just prior to that, and their husbands and their families, kids then were our cousins, so forth. �So, you’re paying attention to those things, then Pearl Harbor happens, and when it happens, did you think that maybe the war would end before you got into it or did you not think about that? You know, as a kid, I was hoping it would not end. I wanted to, you know, all our friends were going, our brothers were going, and we wanted to be patriots, you know. When did you finish high school? I got credit for graduating prior to my going to the service, so I didn’t have to go back to get a GED, I had my diploma so to speak. When did you enter the service? Enter? Yeah. I went in in December of ’44. Did you enlist or were you drafted? I was drafted. Draft Board number 44 called me and I went to Fort—thinking of where I was inducted, I was in inducted in Chicago. Chicago, did you go Fort Sheridan? Yeah, Fort Sheridan, and then we went to Camp Joseph T. Robinson, Arkansas. [7:43] Where in Arkansas was that? Was there a town nearby? Yeah, Little Rock was one, not too far, I don’t really remember. So, Central Arkansas basically? Yes How did they get you down there? How did—train. The troop train. Do you remember anything about that train ride? Not much about that train ride, no. Many others though I could tell you. The weather then was spring, I mean early in the year, and so we had a lot of wet snow, slop, that was our experience there. And our training was based on going to Germany. What did the basic training consist of? That was, like most, gas mask training. Learned to put your gas mask on and so forth. Bayonet training and marching of course and hiking, discipline, lay your pack out, marching, KP. It was just general, basic training. The guys you were training with, were they mostly from the same area or were they from all over the place? �They were from all over the place, there were guys from the South and the East, from all over. There was a pretty good collection there. [9:16] Were you part of a division at that point that was based there, or was this just training? No, not at all, we were just in training. That was a 15 to 16-week course. When that was over, then I went on delay in route and that decided where I was going to go, and that was to Germany, which I was very happy about that, but when we got to Fort Meade, Maryland, the tide had changed. You remember, when I went in in December it was the time of the Battle of the Bulge, so things were already beginning to change then. So, when I got to Maryland they said “woah, no more. We don’t need you anymore, we need potato peelers over there.” Then we went to camp, we were sent to Camp Howze Texas to learn how to hate the Japanese and then went to Fort Ord to the replacement depot. [10:23] Back up here to Camp Howze, Texas. You said you learned how to hate the Japanese. Were you simply learning about the Japanese, or were you training for fighting in Japan? Not specifically that, it was a mental thing. It was more or less movies showing the atrocities the Japanese had done. “This is the kind of soldier you’re going to meet” kind of thing. And more bayonet training, which I hated. You had to be strong to be good at bayonet. You were at Camp Howze and then after that the next stop was? Port of embarkation, Fort Ord, California. Did you stay at Fort Ord for any amount of time, or did they load you up quickly? Not for very long. It was a beautiful place to be, so naturally, when you’re army, you don’t stay anywhere where it’s a beautiful place to be. So, we went from there—fort Ord, that’s Monterey, a couple beach golf courses. You know, that’s a beautiful area. Then we went from there, from Fort Ord by train to Frisco, I guess, and left there. What kind of ship do they put you on? They put us on, I guess what’s the usual troops. I don’t know if it was a Kaiser build or what it was, but it was full impact and the thing I remember about that was the roughness of the sea at that point. There were a lot of sick guys, and I was sick. After a couple of days or so, I guess we got over that. From there we went past some of the other places that had already been taken, Guam, Ulithi, or some of the other places, we went right past. Hawaii of course, we didn’t stop at Hawaii for any pleasure trip, and on to the Philippines from there. [12:32] Where did you land in the Philippines? I don’t know where it was. I don’t know the name of the place. I don’t know the name of the place, no. It was a replacement depot, IRTC they call it. We didn’t do much different there, just waited, waited for our assignment. About how long do you think you stayed there? Probably about a week, yeah, probably a week. When you crossed the Pacific, did the ship go by itself or did you have escorts? �We had escorts, I don’t remember the zigzag, but yeah, I always saw a ship on either side at a distance. Do you think you were in a larger convoy or was this just your ship and a couple of escorts? I don’t know that we were in a convoy, I don’t remember that. Alright. So anyway, you get to the Philippines, they land you, you’re basically in a camp and you don’t really know where you are or what’s going on, and you’re there for about a week, and then what happens? Then we got onboard an AP, Assault—I guess AP is assault personnel or something—on one of those ships and then we went to—I guess—directly to Legazpi and come down the nets and onto the landing boats and went ashore. That’s where we met our new assignment, our new company. [14:17] What unit were you joining? It was the company A of the 158th Regimental Combat Team. Was the company there by itself, or was the whole regiment there? The regiment was there but spread out. Our company, and maybe even the battalion, was right in the Legazpi area. The others were spread out because I remember when we heard rumors that a Company A or whatever it was made ice cream on Sunday so that we were able to confiscate a weapons carrier and see if that was true, things like that. So, we were just there. And during that time that’s where were introduced to all the other guys, you talked to all the guys that had been through a lot and so forth. I read, I found this on the internet more than anything, I learned more about that outfit on the internet than I did by talking to the guys. One of the things I learned was that this regimental combat team was one of MacArthur’s favorites, and I found out that in preparation for the invasion of Japan, this outfit— our outfit—was two days earlier attack the island of Tadakashima, which was south of Honshu. [15:59] Well Kyushu was the island that you were gonna land on, that’s the big island, the southernmost of the big islands so this is gonna be a smaller island off. South, south of that. I don’t know how many miles, but that one held the radio communications, and so what I read was that it would be attacked early, before the main attack, I forgot the name of what they call that and that there would be heavy casualties, that was a really well protected part. But in the meantime, were you training at all? We did, we did for that month or so, whatever it was, yeah. Usual training, we did a lot of bayonet work again and a lot of compass work, and the jungles and things. Did they have you practice amphibious assaults, or did you just stay on land? Amphibious assault, yeah. So, you’d go back out on the boats and get on landing craft and come back in and all that sort of stuff? Yeah. When did you actually arrive at Legazpi, when did you get there? �I don’t know the date, but it was in July. July ’45 you’re there, getting close to when the invasion was supposed to take place. The bomb hadn’t gone off yet either. [17:25] While you’re there, at that point, do you see much of the local population or they kept away from you? No, I don’t remember local population per se, individuals yeah. We had girls who would bring us eggs and so forth. We had our squad tents, it was pretty well organized, and we had a good kitchen crew which was made up of the Koreans who were left there that the Japanese had used, and they became our cooks and so on so forth. So, we had pretty good meals there, beside drinking out of a lister bag, but the food was a lot better, yeah. Do you remember hearing about the atomic bomb? Yeah, we heard about the atomic bomb, yeah. Did you have any sense of what that meant at the time? No, only that it was spectacular. You know, talk back and forth, huge bomb, it looks like that, sounds good to me. Then the second one, and we started to have some positive thoughts about what we were doing. Then when it was finalized, when we heard that the hostility was over, we had completely different mindset. I don’t know if the discipline was as good as it was before. What was the reaction in camp when you heard the war was over? Everybody started planning what they’re gonna do at home, you know? And then, of course, the guys started counting their points. The high point guys, I forgot what the top one was, 80 or something like that, and then you know if you were a married man that’s so many points and so many children, years overseas, and awards, medals, they’re all points for you, see? I don’t think that any guy, any of our guys left then at that point and I think our whole outfit as it was at that time then was dispatched to Japan. [20:01] Do you know when you arrived in Japan? I think it was April 13. April 13 of that. April 13th is quite a long time after the surrender. Yeah. So, you were basically in the Philippines then for a long time after the surrender. Yeah. What were you doing in the Philippines all that time? Just doing routine Army stuff. Did you get a chance to go off the base and look around at all? �No, we didn’t. We just stayed right there in camp. Some of the guys did, they went to other—there were no cities there except just Legazpi itself, but no we just, boring army stuff: waiting, anticipating. We had a lot of free time. Over the course of the time then between August of ’45 and April of ’46, then presumably some of the guys are rotating home now. They’ve got enough points now and they’re leaving. They did have, yeah. They had enough points And when they left, did anyone come in to replace them or did the unit just get smaller? No, nobody replaced them. We would if they wanted us to go on. Did the Army provide any kind of entertainment for you in the Philippines? No, most of that was self-entertained. The guys, there were boxing tournaments and things like that. Did they have movies or other stuff like that? Yeah, anything they could do to keep us happy. Just a lot of boring time. Did you have much communication with people back home at that point? You’re writing to your parents or anyone else? Yes. We were writing. I don’t remember getting much mail, but yeah, we were writing. [22:02] So it’s just kind of this long sort of blank period. Not much happening. Long blank period. Very boring. But then finally then in April of ’46 you get orders for Japan. How did they get you up to Japan? We were on kind of an LST, and it was typhoon. We had that typhoon season and it was very, very rough. It was rough. I don’t know if that was the time, that’s a different story, I had a monkey on the ship I got from another guy. He would sit on the edge of it, he was sick. But that was on another tour, that wasn’t on this trip. Now, if you’re on an LST in a typhoon, did you wonder if the whole thing was gonna break up and sink? Oh yeah, yes. This was new. This was new, that was a—it was like you were in a tin can. Yeah. How long did that go on? Well, I guess several days. It wasn’t that far, I guess, from the Philippines to Japan really. But yeah, several days. But you managed to hit a typhoon. Where did you land in Japan? We landed, apparently, in Yokohama and then we got on a train right away and we went north to this area Usnomi, and then we went through town, which had been—you can see it was bombed. Some of the wood poles and stuff had been scorched and burned, things like that. I remember walking or driving through town, or village, we didn’t see anybody. We just didn’t see anybody. And we went to an �encampment, it was a high wood fence, you see a lot of those in this area, and I understand it was a former Japanese cavalry officers’ training center. It wasn’t large maybe—what would I guess—5 acres maybe. Something like that. And beyond that was the rice paddy. [24:44] So this is still fairly flat country that you’re in. Yeah, and around that of course was a service road, and that’s where we had to do our guard duty, I don’t know what we’re guarding, but we’re on guard duty, that’s what you do in the Army. The interesting thing there was, we always had this little book of Japanese American. We were quarantined there, I remember for a week or something like that, so we weren’t out on the streets of the city. When I got duty and was walking, there was a mama-san, an older Japanese woman, who was washing some clothes on her rock or whatever it was. And of course, I don’t know how it was with other GIs, but we didn’t like to wash our own clothes, so another guy and I, who did that guard post quite often, would meet with her and we would say, we were trying to say “mama-san, you wash your clothes. Sekken, I guess, was the name for soap” and she said “no” no she couldn’t do that cause she didn’t have any Sekken, and I said, “that’s okay, that’s okay we have soap.” So then, of course we got the GI soap out of the kitchen and so on and so forth and kind of secretly used her to take care of our laundry, and then of course we would make sure she had candy and cigarettes and all that sort of thing. So, while we didn’t really talk or communicate or ask any questions, which I regret, I wish that when I was there I had done a lot more research because one of the questions I would’ve asked would be “finally when your emperor said he was not your spiritual god, but he was your emperor, how did you perceive that? What did you do with deity at that point?” That’s kind of my question. Anyway, she was very gracious and she invited us to dinner and so we went into her home, the shoji panel they have the pit in the floor which, I would suppose was 3 feet square or something, and inside of that was the charcoal pot and then the blankets over us and she served us a dinner then. We hit it off well, but not with a lot of people, we knew her more intimately by what we did with her. [27:31] Were there many other around that you saw when you were on guard duty? People going by or just not very many? No there, see, next to the fence was this little road, and this was the back of her house so to speak, so no we didn’t see many other people around. Kids came later, after we got on the street, then the kids would come out, young people, because the chocolate was the big thing, and that always won them over. You said going out on the street, did you begin patrolling or something, or what were you doing? Nope we didn’t. Just wandering around. We had no duties there, we’re just waiting to, I guess, to dissipate, I guess. No, we really didn’t have much of anything to do there. That would be in April, did I say April, no January. We went to Japan in January 13, I said April? Yeah. �Oh, that’s wrong. The colors of the national guard went back in April. So, in that fan of time I can’t remember we did much of anything. Then when the colors went back, we left that place, back to Yokohama. Basically about 3 months there, so you get to know the area a little bit. A little bit. I can’t remember we did anything protective, we didn’t do any repair, we just played soldier I guess is about all we did then. While you were based there did you get to go into Tokyo or anywhere else or were you just stuck out there? Not when I was based there, let me think. I did get to Tokyo, yeah. I’m trying to think who I was with and where I was with. I think I went to Tokyo after I was reassigned to Yokohama, I think that’s right. Then we took a trip so to speak. [29:46] And there were trains that went back and forth at that point? Yeah. When we first were reassigned in Yokohama, our quarters were in what was called the Bunjido racetrack. It was like MSU stadium, all concrete, that’s where our housing was, was in this place. Cold, you know. At one time, at one end of it there was a printing company of some. There was also at that time when we read in the Stars and Stripes, you begin to read what ships are coming in to pick up guys and take them home. It’s there that I saw that my brother’s ship, my brother who was bombed at Pearl Harbor, was assigned to a transport, the Blatchford, R.M. Blatchford. So, I some way or another connected with him and I said “when you come in I wanna know” so when they came in, then I was the guest in the officers’ quarters. It was such a change for me because the officers all had—in those days— they had—what did you call the guys that were… They were stewards. sort Stewards, yeah. They were black stewards on board ships, and they served the meals and so forth. That’s the first time I had had milk in a good, long time. So, I was treated pretty royally. There were nurses on board ship also. I was permitted to be on board for awhile and live like a king. [31:45] When you transferred to Yokohama, what unit were you joining or what did you become a part of? I think it was that construction, 1279 Construction Engineering Battalion if I remember right, and then from there I think what we did was change quarters out of that place into an area in Yokohama itself, and that was another flat area made up of tarpaper Quonset, not Quonset but tarpaper huts set in order, and that’s where our company then stayed and from there our work assignments were interesting. Mine was. I was driven every day for a long time to a batching plant, a hot mix batching plant somewhere in North Yokohama and there was a Japanese guy who was in charge of that. He was in charge of the plant and he was in charge of the men that work there. Can you explain what a batching plant is? A batching plant is where you mix and the hot tar. You heat the tar, mix it with the gravel and you mix it and that’s your black tar pavement. And then the trucks would come, and they would all head off and be doing paving and batching somewhere. The astounding thing was, I was supposed to unload these— �these were flat cars, and they had wooden sides on them, and I had a D8 Bulldozer. Now, how you unload those cars with the blade of a D8 bulldozer is beyond me because you just don’t do it. It’s the clumsiest operation, I can’t explain it. Instead of having a backhoe to pull the gravel of or something or a hopper you drop, no it came in on flat cars and that was how primitive it was. Then there was a lot of handwork that the Japanese guys had to do to get that stuff in the conveyor. That’s kind of the way I spent my days and he had a garden at home. He had lived in the United States at one time. [34:26] This is the Japanese manager? Yes, he was a man much my senior. He might have been 60, maybe 60 or so. He knew what life in the United States was like and he would bring me fruits and things like that to eat. That was kind of what my day was for a while. Then maybe prior to that my job was to run what was called a Barber Greene Ditcher. Barber Greene ditcher, or Barber Greene is made, just like John Deere but it had a conveyor like this and the soil up there was nice to dig, it was sand and you’d dig trenches, just trenches, and then somebody came and put a foundation of some sort and they would set huts, quonset huts on those. Right next to that was, next to that one area was a Russian embassy or A consulate maybe. Something in Japan. They did not like it when one of the guys’ bulldozers knocked the tents down. I remember that. I thought “oh boy, now here we go, third World War” so we did that, and put those huts together. It was a lot of just plain work, work bees. But the thing that I found in going to Yokohama was a hotel was there and I wanted to get a haircut and I went out. I was alone, I don’t know what I was doing that day, but I went into this hotel and got my first haircut for almost nothing. I didn’t have a lot of interaction with Japanese, and they’re very passive. There was never a controversy or anything like that. One of the other things we did—what outfit was that now I’m thinking of—in Yokohama it was, there are a lot of airports around that area and one of the things we had to do was to disarm, supposedly, these things, machine guns and bomb sites and things like that. I didn’t take the engines off, I never did anything at that, but they took engines off and you lined them all up in a big row and then the Signal Corps, somebody came in and then they dynamited those engines, they just blew everything apart. And we would lay the machine guns on the railroad tracks like this and have a bulldozer run over and bend them. And he would take the planes with a quick way crane and pick them all up and get all that stuff on the pile and would take a barrel of gasoline and pour it all over that aluminum and then light it, so all that aluminum was charred, whatever. I thought that was a horrible waste, terrible waste. But anyway, those are some of the thigs we did. One of the problems was getting into there with our dozers that one day. I think our dozer blade, the finished blade, was probably 16-foot, maybe 14, very wide. Well, you know, you go down a narrow Japanese street, and make a corner with a semi—caught the corner of a house, you know. What do you do? So, people’s homes were damaged sometimes just getting your equipment. There was only one airport that I remember, one or two that we worked on like that. Some of the other things we did was, already then there was a begin to exchange of goods, and sometimes we’d have to take a big oil tank or something because some Japanese guy businessman needed a tank or whatever. We’d deliver a tank or something like that. So, we did a lot of variety of things. [39:14] When you went in into Tokyo, what was there to see or do there? �In Tokyo we went and saw the palace and all that sort of thing and the gardens and the things around there, the streets of Tokyo. Of course, in those days, all the women had the kimonos, not like today and so forth. It was just mainly scenery observing regulars there. Was there still a downtown area that was still in reasonably good shape? Yeah, there was a downtown area, but I don’t remember going to any specific ones there. I did in Yokohama cause I spent more time there. Then of course there was the camera shops and so forth, and one of the hospitals was there. That was undamaged in Yokohama. Did you see a lot of cleaning up activity going on, people rebuilding? You know, it’s amazing how much cleaning up was being done and had been done. Some of this stuff, if they needed some equipment for moving heavy stuff then our outfit could do that, but it was really amazing how quickly things got picked up and put aside and the streets opened up and cleaned and swept. It was my experience, you see, was more one of experience a little bit of a different culture and travel, you know, cross the country back and forth and so forth. And there’s an advantage of being the tail-ender. My brother was the front-ender and I was the tail-ender and I was glad for that of course in the end. But it also qualified me for some better benefits and so forth, just having been in a short time. [41:33] You’re mentioning travel, did you travel around much within Japan? You went from Yokohama to Tokyo; did you go anyplace else? Not a lot but once in a while we would go to Atami, A-T-A-M-I, it was on the coast. It was situated where it would get the hot water from Fujiyama, I think, or from the higher elevations there. We would often rent a place for a weekend, maybe two nights. We’d spend that time there in the pools and so forth, it’s a beautiful spot, overlook the ocean. But I didn’t go to the other side of the island to the Navy base or anything like that. Some of the guys I knew from school would come down, one guy that I went to high school from the 82nd airborne, I think he was at Hokkaido or something, so we’d have time together. Did you ever see anything of General MacArthur or see where he was based? Actually see him, I did not, but I saw the guards. The interesting thing was that the various guards was nice to see the changing of the guards and so forth because there were different countries, and one of the things I was most impressed with of course, the Indian Gurkhas. They had their machetes or swords down their backs and so forth. No, but I did experience saluting his car when we were in the southern part of Yokohama. Eichelberger’s headquarters was just beyond the racetrack, the Bunjido race track I was telling you about, they always had to pass our place, so we had plenty of times when the star was on the front of the car “star on the car!” [43:43] Did you have to salute Eichelberger’s car or just MacArthur’s? All of them. If anything came by. Did they have a little flag on the car or a sign on the window or something? There was a, I think on the front of the plate, there were stars on the front of the plate. I don’t remember the flag exactly, but maybe. But anyway, it was something a marker telling you that if that went by you were supposed to salute it. �Oh yeah, and when you were right there on the street, you’re right there on the street you see them coming. Another side of the occupation of Japan, or one of the things that shows up in the books and so forth is that apparently there was a lot of prostitution and issues like that. Was that around or were you aware of that? Well, I imagine individuals yeah. But really, I didn’t—we knew it was going on, we knew that guys were doing what guys do. As far as it being flagrant, girls on the streets not really, I don’t think I saw that. No particular establishments or anything like that. Well, if there were, I didn’t know where they were. That’s probably a healthy thing. Yeah. The other thing was great in Yokohama, first cavalry they had a great baseball team, and so we had spent a lot of time at baseball games in Yokohama. Very competitive, some of those games. [45:34] Did they ever play Japanese players or was it all Americans against each other? They were all American teams at that time. I keep thinking about going through town, and then, of course, you know the rear of the streetcars were all energized by the cables up above and the guys and then the guys for a little mischief got up and pulled the cart down. Poor Japanese guy, what could he do against all the GIs, mischief, kids, you know, kid stuff. How long did you spend in Yokohama do you think? That was until the time I came home. So that would be from April to November. It was quite a ride. Think about the time that you spent in Japan, are there other memories or impressions that stand out that you haven’t brought into the story yet? Yeah, no I-Has he left out anything? Offscreen voice: He had a houseboy involved. [46:45] You had a houseboy at some point? Well, yes, I did. That was great. After we got our barracks in Yokohama, then our big containers, you know you threw your GI stuff, your junk and your slop in, kids would come up here, stick their heads in there, get whatever food they could get. I took a liking to this one little guy. I was 18 and he was 18, but he was about that high. Taksa. His name was Taksa Shannara. I’d like to meet him again. He then became our house boy and he would, we were in squad tents I don’t know how many maybe a dozen guys in the barracks, and he would make our beds, he would shine our shoes, and he’d keep everything tidy. Then of course you know we paid him and then he got all the benefits of food and all the rest. But he also became kind of a brother you might say because he would learn to tease. He’d learn to tease. I would make some remark about Tojo or Yamashita or something, that they were bad guys, you know, and then he would say “no, no they were not, they were good guys” you know, stuff like that. But �overhearing conversations, GI conversation is always “when are we gonna go home?” When GIs gripe, you know everything is alright, they’re alive. He would hear us say “how many points till we go home? We wanna go home.” I remember him saying “where do you come from?” I always say, I didn’t say Grand Rapids, Michigan, I made it easy for him I said Chicago. “Oh, you gangster, you gangster.” Or of course you always heard the story of Babe Ruth but Taksa Shannara caught on and pretty soon he would tease, he would stand on my footlocker and he would say “aha” he would sing, he would say “No goal” in his laugh, he wanted me to chase him you see, so that was our game. Then I said to him, it was the day I was to leave, I said “Taksa, I think I wanna take you home” I said “I’m gonna take you by the pants,” I said, “and I’m gonna stick you in my barracks bag and take you home.” “No no no” he said “mamasan pissed off.” I laughed. Life in Japan, so I imagined there were a lot of little things that happened along the way that we had fun with. The Japanese people, what little interchange we had with them, was always positive. Downtown you’d have people, beggars. There was a lady, I don’t know if she had a physical handicap, she would sing, I think she was partially blind or something, she would sing a song. She would sing (sings in Japanese) we heard that so often, it was something like that. I don’t know what it means, so forgive me any Japanese person. But she was begging for food, she would stand in the hot sun and sing that song. [50:47] Eventually though, did you have enough points to go home or did a whole bunch of you get to go at once or what happened? I don’t—I think it was just a matter of the end. I didn’t have enough points over two years, one year overseas. I imagine it was a matter of another unit just going home. I don’t know what any of the other guys did. But a lot of people wound up, at the end of the war, staying in less that two full years. Well, that is true. One of the guys in our outfit, he was from West Virginia, he told me something about his lifestyle when he was home and it was not very high living. It was even difficult for shoes. So, he did say to me “this is a good place for me, I have clothing, I have shoes, I have this.” His memories were something about not a good living at home and I think some of those guys did stay rather than go home to work in the coal mines and so forth. But not many of our outfit that I remember stayed. When it’s time for you to go home, how do they get you back? How do you get home from Japan? How did I get home? I got onboard ship in Yokohama and we went to Seattle, the port in Seattle. I think that’s Fort Lewis if I remember right, Fort Lewis, Washington? I have to say it was the happiest day of my life I think, going home, USA. It was a beautiful time of the year; it was just like Michigan and football season was on. It almost made you think “gosh if the army was always like this every day, eating like this, being fed like this, maybe I’d stay” but no, it was time to go home, happy day. [53:02] Once you got home, what did you do next? After I got home? After I got home, I think I had the opportunity for the GI Bill, but I didn’t take advantage of that in any way. I think I intended to just find a job and I worked for my dad for a little while in concrete. Didn’t like that of course. At the same time, I had applied at Consumer’s Energy, Consumer’s Power Company at the time, Grand Rapids Police and Fire, both, they were separate at least at that time. So I applied there, did the civil service exam thing and they all came at the same time, I could’ve gone to any one and I chose the power company. I worked at Consumer’s Energy for six years �as a groundman and later as a lineman, and then after that I considered going to the concrete business, at least we thought that’s what it was at the time and then with my dad, I went back to work with my dad in the concrete business. Then a little after that, I poured concrete walls. I bought a set of wall forms and I poured concrete walls for a good long while, most of my years. Then after that, I don’t know how old I was then, I did some inspection work for Bill Holmier in Muskegon Soils and Structures. When they were building some of the Haworth buildings in Holland, I did some of the soil testing and concrete testing and some inspections for placing of concrete, things like that. I did that for a while. Then as years went by, I think our church was going to build a new church, so I did the clerk of the works business on that and just kind of faded out of the picture. [55:46] Look back on the time that you spent in the service, what do you think you learned from that, or how did that affect you? I thought it was an experience I would never have, I would do over any day; because after all, I didn’t get shot at and I didn’t have to kill anybody. I know what the army is like. I think the mistake I made was I didn’t take advantage of more communication with the people of Japan and maybe even the Philippines although I wasn’t there that long. I think I would have done more research trying to interview more people there. Travel more maybe. And when you got back to the States, had you learned things from being in the service that helped you in your jobs or otherwise? What did the service teach me? It taught me what it was like and it taught me about war, the effects of war, what happens to guys when they go through these things. I think you learn; you always learn more than you know, more than you can put your finger on. You learn how to get along with people, you learn how to size people up, you know who to stay away from and so forth. I think it’s a great learning experience. I think from the standpoint of discipline it’s a good thing. I think—from the standpoint of discipline—all young people should go through it, I do. I don’t have a negative feeling toward—I do say this when my children and grandchildren, I say to my grandchildren who lean towards the military that you get your college education first, and then if you want to be an officer or whatever comes after that okay, but you get that first. You don’t want to be on the bottom of the ladder, not that it’s great up on top either, I know that. Thanks for a good story. Thank you very much for taking the time to share with us today. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_GillesseW2112V Title A name given to the resource Gillesse, William (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-21 Description An account of the resource Bill Gillesse was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1926. He remembered hearing about the attack on Pearl Harbor over the car radio during a family road trip to the state capital. Gillesse was drafted in December of 1944 and sent to Fort Sheridan, Illinois, and then Camp Joseph T. Robinson, Arkansas, for Basic Training. After training for war in Europe, he was redirected to Camp Howze, Texas, for mental conditioning and adjustment training necessary to fight the Japanese in the Pacific. Gillesse was then assigned to A Company of the 158th Regimental Combat Team. When the Japanese surrendered and the war was over, Gillesse remained in the Philippines before joining the occupational forces in Japan in April of 1946 with the 1279th Engineer Battalion back in Yokohama. In November of 1946, Gillesse was shipped back to the United States and was discharged at Fort Lewis, Washington, before traveling back to Grand Rapids where he went to work for Consumers Energy Company. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gillesse, William Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/807ce423d2999c74197e98f227fa3737.mp4 332bf6925c17d1a9a8d41265a7756748 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4ba42b79756cffc78bc98fd9b6c0f4b.pdf ded6b1d340df36fec212d9b2f1cac859 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Grand Valley State University Veterans History project Interviewee’s name: Gerald Garner Length of Interview: (00:30:21) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Madison Vander Lugt Interviewer: We’re talking today with Gerry Garner of Bridgman, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Gerry, start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with, where and when were you born?” We just talked about that, West Branch, Michigan Interviewer: “Oh, but we weren’t on tape. Now we’re on tape.” Oh, now we got to get it on tape. Yeah, West Branch, Michigan. Interviewer: “Okay, and what year” That was 1945. May 25th was… Interviewer: “No, when were you born?” When was I born? May 25th of 1927 Interviewer: “Twenty-seven, yes. As opposed to forty-five, okay. And what was your family doing for a living at that time?” *(00:00:47)* Dad was a jeweler and a watch repairman; mother tested eyes. Well, they had an aunt, her mother’s sister, who’d go along with them. She lost her husband. Their dad, Marcellus Graves, had a jewelry store. Sold watches, fitted and repaired watches and he taught a lot of that to his kids. In fact, he taught my dad while dad was still working on the farm north of Vassar. This is all in Vassar, Michigan that he learned how to repair watches. And so he worked for 2 years with his dad farming. He said he didn’t want to be a farmer. So they got a loan of money from him �and all went up to West Branch and bought out a business that Cassius Graves, mother’s uncle, had been running. And they had that store there till they passed away. Interviewer: “Okay, so you managed to keep the store during the ’30s and the Depression?” *(00:01:53)* Wasn’t easy. Jewelry wasn’t a good thing to be into then. And we were just handed Northern Power Company, start giving us electricity for the little fire, electric plants just outside of town. And it was hardly enough power to run all the lights on a Saturday night, let alone do anything else. And finally, it got bought out by Consumers Power which had a bigger grid and they needed somewhere place to show their electrical equipment; stoves, refrigerators, wash machines. Didn’t have dryers, they had wash machines, they had things like that. So, he rented them half the store and then agreed to collect half their light bills for them and that got people coming into the store. Plus they had this service man’s desk there and dad had, during the ‘teens, had been infatuated with cars. So I think he got a different car about every year when you can buy them for about four or five hundred dollars. And he’d run a taxi service because people would come in on the train, getting there by car on the roads that they had in those days wasn’t very good. But these salesmen would come in and need local transportation so he and a couple other fellows rented out their services as a cab driver. So he did quite a bit of that in the early years and in the process...well actually, he had one friend that was a mail deliverer who got sick and he’d run his mail route for him for a while. So he learned a lot where the farmers were and this was invaluable when he was working for the power company because they didn’t have a radio then to call in and say who’s out now. And in those days if you had lightning anywhere you had outages. And the fellow would go to a farmer had a phone, which they did some of them have phones, and he’d call in: Well, who’s out now? and Dad would say Oh, this group of farmers are out. and they knew right away where the automatic switches were so he was a big asset to them. So he lived, that was middle thirties somewhere when he started that, it was certainly the depression time. When he died in ‘57 they tried...well I got involved because mother and dad said this eye testing business, being an optometrist is a good deal. So I really didn’t ever have any other thoughts of what I was going to be doing. So when I got out of service I immediately go to the closest school we had for optometry was in Chicago. It was that Northern Optic, Northern Illinois School of Optometry and they said, we can’t take you; we usually handle sixty-five students a year coming in and we got four hundred and some coming in with a G.I. Bill coming behind them. He says you could take this basic schooling in the Freshman year is just science classes, so take that locally. So I went down to Bay City and into the community college there and there’s where I got my first year of schooling with a lot of physics classes and a lot of labs in the afternoon which interfered with my playing basketball. �*(00:05:21)* Interviewer: “Alright, that’s getting really far ahead of the story so let’s kind of rotate back here. We talked about how your family kind of got through the ‘30s and basically, your mother had a job and your father…” It took both of them to run the store. Interviewer: “And then he ran the store and then did all these other things along the side to find ways to kind of get by.” *nods* To get by. Interviewer: “Alright, now when Pearl Harbor happens, you’re still pretty young, fourteen or whatever.” Yeah, I remember their first news coming in over their radio about that. And that was pretty awesome that, in fact, we suspected FDR had been helping England right along with land lease stuff and we were pretty much isolationists over here. We thought that was all somewhere else. We often wondered if they actually had an inkling that this raid was going to happen and let it happen just to get us stirred up so we’d get into the fight. Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s an off-camera conversation, research that one, but anyway so it happens...did you assume at the time that the war would be over before you would be old enough to be in it or did you not think about that?” You know, I didn’t think that far ahead, didn’t know where this atomic experimenting was going on. I had a cousin that was fourteen years older than I that had gone into the Army and he’d spend a lot of time in the Philippines. And he got jungle rot on his feet and was in the hospital when his outfit moved and was ready to invade Okinawa and so he kind of missed an event that took out about half the guys in his group. When he got there, they were already established and they were trying to get the Japs out of their holes in the ground on the northern part of the island. *(00:07:26)* Interviewer: “Alright, we’re going to go back to you. So basically, Pearl Harbor happens and, I mean, it’s something of a shock to the system at that point. And then did life change in your community once the war started or did things stay pretty much the same?” �I would say so. We had a local oil business. We had oil we found underneath our town and in the area, we had our own refinery. My brother was working as a gauger for the Simmer Oil Company. So that was a deferred kind of thing and many people work in the oil business one way or the other. Many of them drove clear to Flint which was a hundred miles every day with a carload to work in one of the plants down there. Of course, they stopped making cars for about two years from ‘42 to ‘44. Dad was on the rationing board so he had to decide who can have how much, how many gallons of gas and really pass around to people that extra and helped out. It wasn’t too much of a problem getting the gas but the schools couldn’t use buses for out of town sports stuff and we had to borrow theirs to drive us. Tires were pretty new. They had had this ‘40 Chevy engine rebuilt before they got through because stuff didn’t last in those days like they do now. I had a big victory garden two different years that was...everybody who had anywhere to raise stuff would have a garden of some kind. Yeah, I would say the whole community to run a total war on two parts of the world was a total effort. *(00:09:20)* Interviewer: “Alright, now as the war goes on and you get older, there’s the prospect now that you could get drafted once you turn eighteen in ‘45. So how did you deal with the prospect of service? You talked about this off-camera, but now we’re doing it on.” I guess I didn’t think about not going in. I didn’t have other than my eyesight needing glasses which prevented me from volunteering. I’d already worked a couple months with the navy to get some kind of schooling. Interviewer: “Can you explain that? What it means, you worked with the navy to get schooling?” Yeah, while Dad and his brother-in-law were in the wholesale business, finding out what kind of goods were sellable, I went into the navy recruiting place and I talked to him then. And I think I mist have had about three visits with him in the process of passing the written test for the radar technician training. And then finding out that I couldn’t volunteer and had to wait until the 25th of May when I signed up for the draft. I don’t know if you can sign up before you’re eighteen or not cause that’s when I was eighteen, it was the 25th of May in ‘45. And the fighting in Europe was done and it wasn’t couple months later that we dropped the bombs on Japan and that was done. *(00:10:59)* Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you pick the navy?” �Well, living in trenches and stuff didn’t appeal to me. At least they had good food and a place to eat even if the ship now got knocked out underneath you then that’s where the bad part starts. Interviewer: “Alright, and then initially you were interested in radar and being a technician?” Not particularly, it was the only schooling. I was interested in some kind of schooling that I was in. My son...I don’t know if I can divert to another member of the family… Interviewer: “Yup!” *(00:11:33)* ...My oldest son was born in ‘51 so he becomes eighteen sometime in the ends of ‘68. And Vietnam was going on and Vietnam was not a popular subject, in fact, some of the young fellows were thinking about escaping to Canada to avoid it. And my brother and I had quite a conversation talking him out of that and then I said: You go get some schooling at one of the services and by the time you get the schooling done, the Vietnam issue will be settled. And he wanted to be an optometrist and fill in for when I quit. They had for three years he could be an optician. He was one that runs the lab and fills the prescriptions for the optometrist or whoever tested the eyes. So he went out to Aurora...he, first of all, sneaked out and got married to his girlfriend and then took her with him to Aurora, Colorado where he spent two or three months learning the business. Then he spent the rest of his three years in Fort Benning, fitting glasses. Interviewer: “Alright, so we kind of go back up to you. So you’ve kind of decided, okay, you’re interested in the navy and essentially what’s happening here is you try to enlist when you were seventeen but they didn’t let you because of your eyesight?” No. No, I didn’t say I did anything until after I was eighteen. I wasn’t really going to go ahead of time. Interviewer: “Alright, but you were talking to them before you were eighteen?” The way it worked out, by the time I was ready, I was up to eighteen then on the 25th. And that’s the end of high school so I got my chance to graduate even went and played a final tennis tournament down in Kalamazoo. My buddy and I, we were tennis players. Interviewer: “Ok, so now, end of May, you’ve signed up and now where do you go for your basic training?” �*(00:13:41)* Well, we went first to boot camp in Great Lakes. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was that like?” Well, it was...I was trying to describe it as just a hodgepodge of different things to keep us busy. It took a while to get to 126 of us and we’re all going to do the same thing. And they were put over in Camp Downey which is over on the West side of the railroad tracks cause Great Lakes is a big place. But we did an awful lot of drilling and we did a lot of manual alarms with the rifles. I think I got with the food I was getting and the exercise I was getting, I never got tougher or stronger than I was at that time. We had firefighting, we had learning flag signals, we learned Morse code, we went down on the lakefront and a couple different times and shot the aircraft, 30’s and 50’s, firefighting on a ship; we never did go on a rifle range. So I guess that was what we were filled, it was abbreviated from a normal boot camp cause we were going on to schooling then. Interviewer: “Okay, how did you already have your schooling picked out?” Where I was going to go? Interviewer: “What your schooling was going to be.” The schooling was just radar technician training. Interviewer: “Okay, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the military? Going off being at camp” I didn’t have any trouble with that. Interviewer: “Alright, and about how long did the boot camp last?’ *(00:15:33)* When did we go into Chicago? That had to be September or October, I think, something like that. But I was starting the primary school in Chicago. Interviewer: “Okay, and so at primary school, so where were you then? Was that the high school in Chicago?” �Yeah, that was a high school that wasn’t being used as a school anymore. The navy had the use of it. So we had the barracks set right up in the gym. We had bunks that were three bunks high. Living on the top one was not any fun. It’s a long ways to the floor if you walk in your sleep. I remember Wednesday nights were off, we could leave the base. So we’d go down to Halsted Street and even in those days all of the stores had screens, metal screens, over the windows to prevent breaking in, We went to a malt shop there and that’s when I learned about banana malts. So we had very often got a vanilla malt with a banana ground up into it and when the Japan quit there was quite a celebration downtown, I guess we didn’t observe directly, but we saw pictures of the crowds on the streets and the what all was going to celebrate that we finally got the stupid war over with. Interviewer: “Alright, now, what did your training there actually consist of? What were you learning while you were there?” *(00:17:16)* Well, the basics of radar and electrical systems involved in creating the signals and interpreting them when they come back. So this was pretty much about generating electrical circuits, batteries, and the power source for radar. We were just going on to the next schooling to get a better application when they decided they didn’t need to train us in that anymore. And we were really concerned about what was going to happen to us because we figured we’d be on a ship’s company on some base somewhere. Maybe way out in Midway or something like that, we’d be stuck for a while, didn’t work that way. Interviewer: “Ok, so where did you go next?” Well, we went back to Great Lakes before they decided what to do with us. And I can’t quite remember how long we were there. We did get on a troop train that got us out to San Francisco and then I told you about going from Treasure [...] Island, a year in [Hawaii?], and then down to Alameda and that’s where a lot of ships were stationed. We had an aircraft carrier sitting beside us. You get the tide working out there, you maybe go up in the morning going up like that on the walkway and then next time you come back you’re going like that. And I saw, while I was there, I saw one of the four-engine flying boats that flew from San Fransisco out to Honolulu and watched one take off. You never thought with all the load they had on that the bay wasn’t big enough for them to take off, terrible racket. That first time they said they were sending people back to their place of origin which would be Great Lakes or Maine. But they finally decided to, they were so overwhelmed that Great Lakes with dischargees that they would let us get discharged out there and then they’d give us five cents a mile for us to get home. Before that happened, my buddy that I was with had an uncle out there that had some kind of a mining company. He also had a nice looking daughter and so we were going to get him to give us letters �saying we had promise of employment out there so we could stay out there and get discharged. Well, that never reached a conclusion so they let us go up to Stockton and get discharged. They tried to talk us into upping but we couldn’t quite see that. *(00:20:02)* Interviewer: “But, what were they offering in terms if you re-upped; what would they give you?” Oh boy, I can’t remember that. I can’t remember that. Wasn’t in the picture so we didn’t listen very hard. Interviewer: “Alright so how long did you actually spend in Alameda?” In Alameda? Interviewer: “Yeah.” It’d be less than two months. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of job did you have there?” Well, they assigned me to one of the departments on the ship. Let me think now; I did some painting down in some of the holes. I guess that must have been before I was assigned in the carpenter’s shop. But we used to have a priming paint that was very good to stop rust. And I remember going way down in the bow, or in the crap quarters, and we had these little power units pumping air down and our air up and even then when you’d come out you were drunk cause the smell of paint was not very good for you. I guess I did some of that at first until I got assigned to this carpenter’s shop and I was just inventory and the tools I had and I had some stiff to smear on that made a coating to keep them from rusting. *(00:21:28)* Interviewer: “Ok, so you’re on the Seaplane tender and, that’s the type of ship you were on?” That’s what they called it. I never knew much more about what it did. Interviewer: “Ok, can you describe the ship physically?” �Yeah, it was a lot like a destroyer but quite a bit smaller. I don’t even remember what armament it had on it cause I wasn’t involved in that. We had heard from fellows coming back from the Pacific which maybe shouldn’t be talked about. But they said they realized how much delay they would have of getting out because of what they had to do with the ship to decommission it or preserve it. And they started throwing things, things disappeared overboard so they didn’t have to do a lot of what we were doing. So out there somewhere on the bottom of the Pacific before you get into the bay at San Francisco there’s a lot of war materials setting Interviewer: “Something that someone did not want to inventory.” Didn’t want to spend the time it was going to take to do it. They wanted to go home. Interviewer: “Now were they decommissioning the ship you were on or was this just regular maintenance that you were doing?” No, I assume that was going in storage. I don’t think there was any need for it to go out anymore. So I assume it was mothballed as they say. *(00:22:48)* Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get much time to sort of go off base in these places? In San Francisco or anywhere else?” Out there, yeah, we had a small boat that we could take as a taxi and could run across to downtown San Francisco so I remember going over there quite a few times. As I say we had a, a friend and I, this people that we said couldn’t get to work for us. We were up in… uh, what’s the name of the college town on the north side of the bay? Anyway, it was a very nice residential area that they lived in. It used to be a great place to walk around cause I wasn’t too used to the smell of night-looming jasmine for example is quite overwhelming at night. And the San Francisco Bay with everything being hills around it, the lights on the bay and everything is just a beautiful situation. You can see the lights on the San Francisco from across where we were. Berkley is the name I wanted to say was up that place and it was just a beautiful sight. In fact, I took my wife out there and we spent two weeks later on exploring San Francisco and northern California. *(00:24:23)* Interviewer: “Alright, so you said the job thing didn’t happen?” �The job thing?...No, never got that needed because, I said, we’re overwhelmed back at Great Lakes and you were picking up discharge wherever you want so Stockton happened to be the place we went to. Interviewer: “Okay, and then this takes you back to when you basically decided to go for optometry school. You had gone to the place in Illinois and they had told you go off and take some lower-level classes first…” I could take that right in Bay City. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you then go back to that school or did you go somewhere else?” Oh, yeah. Yeah, even before I had my grades even to me in Bay City they were ready to start the summer term over there. Interviewer: “Okay” And I was quite sure my grades were quite suitable. I never had any trouble with grades in school. Interviewer: “Alright, so then you went on to be an optometrist then?” Right. I spent forty years back in West Branch. I met after, John and I both went took the state board when we got back in late 49 and passed the board. So he was going to be with his dad in Standish and I was going to take over my mother’s part of the business. We always had rooms built in the building but behind or above the store because it took both mother and dad all the time to take care of the store. People in those days didn’t plan on eye tests unless you had a problem. So invariably if they come in and say they need their eyes checked, there was something wrong. And most of them because they just needed some kind of glasses. And people, when they got glasses, didn’t get them from mother; that wasn’t something women did. They got them from the dad. Mother worked for the dad so she had that against her. Now they had two sons and they went there in 1910 and had their first son in 1912 and another in 1915 and I didn’t come along until 27. So those two boys were like uncles to me more than other. And the oldest one, he took county normal. Do you know what county normal is? In high school, there was a class for the seniors. I think it was just seniors. They’re preparing them for teaching in their oneroom schools and every township had to have and that was mostly the source for girls. I don’t know how many fellows took it but he went on to Central Michigan then and got his degree for teaching and math and music. And when he went to be in high school for his first job, I went with him for first grade, So that’s how much difference it was between my oldest brother and �myself. And I wasn’t going to that school. I was really spoiled. But when I went, I loved it. I loved it. I loved to have the kids to play with. *(00:27:30)* Interviewer: “Alright, okay now…” I didn’t mention something we did in shop. Interviewer: “Okay.” It was to make scale size model planes, painted in black, of German planes, French planes, British planes, Japan planes, and our own planes. So that was supposed to be, somewhere they used them for plane spotting, for training. Interviewer: “Right, for training recognition of aircrafts. So let’s…” Yeah, we had a booth on top of the community building and somebody was in it all the time watching for planes because in those days somebody had the idea that Germans were capable of flying over top of the world to northern Canada, where there isn’t anybody, and set up a refueling station so they could come down through the upper part of the country, bombing. And the straights were there, Saginaw, Bay City, Flint, Pontiac, Detroit, Chicago. All kinds of industrial power in the middle of the country that we needed to protect. And we were there trying to watch for airplanes that weren’t supposed to be there. *(00:28:40)* Interviewer: “Okay, now did you actually do, did you have air-raid wardens or blackouts or things like that or did you not do that in a place like West Branch?” No, I don’t remember having that type of thing. Interviewer: “Okay. Now, you have kind of an, almost a snafu kind of experience in the service, in the sense that you went around to all of these places and didn’t spend too much time doing too much. But, what do you think you took out of that or did you learn anything from the process of being in the military?” Oh, got me out of a small town. Fed me, housed me, gave me a chance to go and explore Chicago quite a bit with the USO and generally learned that Chicago is a tough place to live in. �Of course, I spent years in optometry school there. Met a few girls, learned to dance at the Aragon and Trianon and went and first time I saw professional basketball players was there. And a fellow that was from Minnesota that was one of the bigger guys there, Mike...if only I could get his name for it, I was overwhelmed by the size of those guys. But I did see some of the world in that respect that I don’t see in my little town of West Branch. Interviewer: “Alright, well thanks for interesting stories. So thanks very much for coming in and sharing today.” Okay. *(00:30:21)* End of Interview. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_GarnerG2169V Title A name given to the resource Garner, Gerald (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-14 Description An account of the resource Gerald Garner was born in West Branch, Michigan, on May 25, 1927. During the Great Depression, his family's jewelry shop was diversified as his father agreed to share the space with an energy company so he could pay the rent. Garner signed onto a radar technician program with the Navy in the closing months of the war and attedned Boot Camp at Great Lakes Naval Station. He was in Alameda, California, when the war ended and was quickly offered an early-out of the service due to the flood of dischargees returning home. He then went on to attend optometry school in Chicago on the GI Bill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Garner, Gerald Alfred Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74171dce63c294a5bc148d92dd183485.mp4 cf42598e88ab5fb7cc8e8dadcb799642 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0264e14515c4e7c062351b27bcd5d607.pdf 926a0ecd2379447020788e532719cb08 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Tom Friar Interview Length: (1:37.24) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're talking today with Tom Friar of Sparta, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Okay, now Tom can you begin with some background on yourself and to begin with where and when were you born? I was born in 1948, in 1948, December in Grand Rapids, Michigan and lived there all my life until about 10 years ago I moved to Sparta. Interviewer: Okay what did your family do for a living when you were growing up? Well my dad, my mom and dad were divorced, and my mom worked several different odd and end jobs and there was a, we grew up with family, five kids and we just had a good time growing up in the 50s. Interviewer: Okay and did you move around a lot or? No, no we stayed there all, the whole time so… Interviewer: Okay and then where'd you go to high school? (1.26) I went to Creston High School. I didn't graduate until I got back out of the service. I had a friend that was in… I was a freshman myself with another guy and a friend of ours, an acquaintance got, was drafted went in, Vietnam and got killed and we kind of got upset about it and so we enlisted in the army. Interviewer: How old were you when you enlisted? Seventeen. �Interviewer: Okay and did you need your mother's permission to enlist or how did that work? Oh, you know I don't remember if I did or not at that time. I, if I did, she probably reluctantly signed it, but she was kind of proud, you know. I was in a lot of trouble off and on, and you know but just kids growing up drinking beer and having fun. (2.19) Interviewer: Alright, okay so then you enlisted, so when do you actually report for service then? In May of ‘67 I went down to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training. And… Interviewer: When you were, did you have a physical first and that kind of thing? Oh yes. Went down to Detroit, and while in line in Detroit, I enlisted so, but there were hundreds of guys they were drafted, and at that time the Marines were taking a beating, and nobody was wanted to enlist in the Marines. And I remember there's this big line and there was somebody who's counting every third man, “you’re a Marine.” And guys were going crazy and they counted me as I was in on that and I said, “no, no, no, no I enlisted.” “Okay you go over here then.” So, I got out of the Marines, that was significant at the time. Interviewer: Alright now at the physical did you, were you aware of anybody you know trying to beat the system or get themselves disqualified? (3.31) You know I really didn’t notice that, in basic training I- I saw some guys in particular one that strikes out, in the barracks and he was, he unscrewed a light bulb and broke it and started eating the glass, what the hell. And they took him out and we never saw him again so, you know. But other than you know some guys just you know, just really didn't want to be there, and just didn't do some of the stuff they were supposed to do. So, but nothing other than that light bulb things stands out. �Interviewer: Alright okay so you get… now was- was the physical particularly thorough or was it a cursory thing? I think it was mostly cursory, I, nothing special, checked your heart, checked to see if you had flat feet, I guess. You know nothing that stands out to me anyways that was you know really serious. Interviewer: Sure. So, I don't think anybody back then had a, if you could walk and talk, I think you were taken. Interviewer: Yeah there were some phases in Vietnam where- where that- that kind of happened and other times they were a little more careful. Anyways, that's why we ask, we find out. Okay so from there then how did they get you down to Fort Knox? (4.58) As I recall we took a train down from Detroit area and to Fort Knox and it was the first time I had ever been on the train so it's kind of a different, exciting and different. Got sick of it after a couple hours, but you know rocking back and forth. Interviewer: Now what kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox? Oh, we’re talking 40 some years now. I- I remember leaving the training it seems like we got on a bus and going into Fort Knox itself and then climbing off a bus probably can of like the movies you see now, you get out and there's a drill sergeant there. He’s a big black guy and I don't- I don’t think I've ever seen a bigger guy at that time than this guy, and he had his little hat on and, and he didn't take no crap. He was from the Virgin Islands, and he was a tough guy, but he was also fair. And needless to say, I've never done a push-up since I got out of basic training. I said I'll never do them again. �Interviewer: Alright, now did they have to spend some time processing you before you start the regular training and what kind of stuff did you do when you got there? I remember going through, getting a haircut I think, I don't know if that was the first thing, but everybody got that buzz cut. And then got a ton of shots and I remember different times during basic one… but in the very beginning got a couple shots and then we went through like a warehouse I guess it was, and got uniforms, underwear, and you know uniforms, boots, you know the regular stuff, and a big old duffel bag and that's about what I can remember of that. (7.09) Interviewer: Okay, did you take any tests there or had you already done testing earlier? The new aptitude tests and things like that? Seems like I took them before, but I'm not positive… and so… Interviewer: Alright now what did the training itself consists of? Well you had to learn how to a shoot a rifle, throw grenades, a lot of physical training. Every morning PT I guess it was. A lot of running, and different things. I remember going through the CS gas chamber, stuff like that, and I, you know just I guess regular training, how to, you know, drilling and you know just… Interviewer: Okay how much emphasis was there on discipline? (8.10) I think it was all on discipline, I that’s like I say, do push-ups constantly. If you even look cross eyed give me 10 or 20 or whatever it was and but I think it was like a game, you know I mean you are gonna listen to me, you're not, I'm not your mom no more, and you can't tell me to go screw off or whatever. You're gonna do it and for the most part I think �everybody did, there was a few guys, you know a few, you know and did what they wanted to do and, but I didn’t see much of that. Interviewer: Okay, now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the army? I think it was pretty hard. I think the discipline, I didn't have much discipline growing up and so I had, I struggled with that I was on KP and of course pushups and stuff and I didn't really get out of that until I got to Vietnam and that's where I kind of got my shit together. And so, but I wasn't supposed to be in the infantry either, and that was another story so, I suppose you want to know that. (9.22) Interviewer: But when you enlisted were you allowed, did you… allowed to select what your MOS would be or whatever? Yes, yes, I was supposed to be a truck driver and so that’s- that's what I was gonna be and I was asked your first choice where you want to go and I said “Germany, and then- then Vietnam.” So because I figured I had three years, maybe I'd see somewhere else pretty good too and then end up there, but that's not the way it worked out so… but at that time you know in ‘67 that's when a lot of stuff was going on so they basically, I'm assuming that most people went there. Interviewer: Yeah well, they went there and then that can also affect what specialization you get too, because if they need people in a certain area, they'll take them regardless of what they promised you. (10.18) Right, yeah. �Interviewer: Okay now you're gonna go back a year, you’re in basic training, now some people report a-a fair amount of discipline or things happening that were kind of beyond what was supposed to happen. You know, sergeant's punching people or beating them up or those kinds of things, was that going on when you went through? I didn't see any of that, for one thing as big a guy as he was, nobody messed with him, and but like you know there's some black guys that did and I remember once and I don't want to say… some of these black guys would say, you know, “crazy nigger,” or something like that and then he had the whole company there and he, and he says, “I'm gonna tell everyone of you assholes one thing right; I'm not a nigger. I'm from the Virgin Islands. You, you, and you are the niggers.” And that shut everybody up right then and there. And but, you know I never saw any race stuff when I was there. Basic training, I mean there was a- a black guy that I was, I bunked next to and he was in the National Guard, he and a couple other guys were there for the National Guard and basic. I kind of hang out, hung out with those guys a little bit. In fact, one of them, we got a pass for something I don't remember say, and I went home to Toledo, or something. I think whether you're from or Toledo for a day or two, and then came back. I guess maybe it was one of the holidays, in May/ June, I don't know. Interviewer: Yeah fourth of July maybe or something. (12.00) It could have been, yeah. But I remember I went home with, because they weren't very far from Kentucky. And then we all got on the bus and he went there and had a good time, as underage drinking, but you know I did that for a lot of time. �Interviewer: Okay, now were there very many National Guard guys training with you there that you can recall? In the company I was in I would, I want to say probably a third of them were. That's approximate I… Interviewer: Yeah, did the National Guard guys get treated any differently than the rest of you because they were there, and they were going back home again? I would, I don't think they were treated any different. I think maybe some of the guys that were US that were drafted and- and maybe some of the guys that enlisted like myself may have had some problems with it. I personally didn't because I got along good with them, I mean hell they were going through the same thing I were- I was, so. (13.05) Interviewer: Okay, now were you in good physical shape when you went in? Maybe yeah, I was in pretty good shape you know, I- I, as a kid we used to run around all the time and stuff. I was, I was in pretty good shape. Interviewer: Okay so the physical part of the training wasn't too tough? No, the only thing I had trouble was a, was a ladder thing that we had to do. I couldn’t get that down very good, but other than that you know, the running and crawling and climbing and stuff like that. Interviewer: Now a lot of people who might be watching this won't have any idea even what the ladder thing was, so can you explain what you were doing? Oh, I’m not sure what its really called. Interviewer: Were you like hanging? Were they over your head and you were moving? �Yes, it’s like it’s, it could have been a ladder. I don't know for all I know, but it's parallel bars I guess it's… Interviewer: Or monkey bars or something like that. Yeah. Interviewer: I think they get called sometimes. You get, you climb up on a couple steps up and then you gotta go across, maybe… I have no depth perception here. Maybe fifteen foot or something like that. Interviewer: Yeah, you're- you're hanging from these things and you've got to go hand over your hand, so you're hanging down you’ve got to move it, yeah. Yeah, you're swinging around, and you know if you're good at it which some guys are like a monkey, go through it. I wasn't like that. Interviewer: Alright and so while you had some discipline issues you didn't have anything that was really big or that would get you serious discipline, or anything else like that? Oh no, no. Interviewer: Alright so how long did the basic training last? (14.30) I don’t know, I think what is it? Sixteen weeks or something like that, I can’t remember. Interviewer: Well basic is normally eight and then there’s eight of advanced training after that. Okay. Interviewer: Okay, so what was your, where did you go next after Fort Knox? Well… Interviewer: Or did you stay at Fort Knox for AIT? �I actually, I had a stay; no, I was supposed to go somewhere but my orders never came in. And so I was stuck in the same company and it's actually kind of fun because what had happened there was they didn't know what to do with me because they didn't have no orders so I stayed right in the barracks and everybody was gone except one guy, he was a sergeant for the 1st Cav and he was in kinda, he had some problems, but he was in head of supply downstairs. So, they said, “Friar you're going down there,” and that's and so I worked with him for, you know I bet you I was probably still there a couple three, four weeks, and then they said, “if your orders don't come in we're going to try and get you here as permanent party.” And this guy, the sergeant from our 1st Cav. I wish I could remember his name, he was a really good guy, he treated me really good, and he lived in Elizabethville. I think it's Elizabethville, outside in Kentucky. And he’d take me there now and then and we’d drink beer and- and he said to me, he says “Tom, Tommy,” I don't know why people always call me Tommy all my life but, he said, “Tommy if I could tell you one thing if you get stuck going to Vietnam you try to get into 1st Cav.” He says, “because they- they treat you good, they got all the helicopters in the world and if they, if it's possible to get food to you, they'll get it to you.” And- and I took that, and I said, “okay.” And as it was, I ended up at 1st Cav as a sergeant too. So… (16.33) Interviewer: Okay, but the plan to just keep you there as permanent party obviously doesn't happen? No, my orders came in and then, then I was sent to Fort Dix, New Jersey and that's where AIT for a truck driver, and I took basic training- or AIT training there. And I don't �remember a whole lot of that other than driving a damn truck, and cleaning them, and this and that and… Interviewer: What kind of truck were you driving? Most of the time it was a deuce and a half, but it was up to kind of like semis too, but I didn't do too much of that, it was mostly the smaller. And Jeeps, and like- like the old ambulance trucks, and stuff like that. And met a Chinese guy there from New York, Chan was his name and he and I hung out, because I left everybody else. Nobody else that I went through basic training, they were are all two, three, four weeks ahead of me. So, and I met this kid and- and on a weekend pass he took me to New York City. Never, and he lived there and took me to where he lived, stayed at his house. And took me to Chinatown, what a, what a, what an awakening for a 17-year-old kid. (18.03) Interviewer: Yeah, you weren't in Grand Rapids anymore! No, I mean it’s like across every street somebody wants to sell you their body and it was like the proverbial; open your coat, you could buy watches… anything. God I never seen that, you know for Grand Rapids a 17-year-old kid, so that was growing up experience too. Interviewer: Alright so when you finished the- the time at Fort Dix you finished that training, have they told you where you're gonna go, or what you’re gonna do next? Yeah, they-they say, I was, had orders from Vietnam and I, they, I got a leave I think it was for I want to say 30 days, but I don't know if it was 30 days. Interviewer: 30 days was a standard length at that point at sometimes it wound up being less or whatever, but 30 days is pretty likely. �Yeah, I think that's, yeah, it's probably what it was then. Because I didn't take any other leave, a weekend pass, or a couple day pass is all, up until that time so. Interviewer: Okay 30 days, and then from home now do you head straight out to Vietnam or how does that work? Well I went from home to Seattle- Tacoma, Seattle and that's where we flew out of there, to Vietnam. I think we went via Alaska, Japan… Interviewer: Yeah that was one of the standard routes, you went out of Seattle you usually took the northern route to go that way. Okay and then where did you land in Vietnam? Cam Ranh Bay. (19.41) Interviewer: Okay and when did you arrive there? November, it was, I want to say 13- 12- 13 something like that, it was before Thanksgiving. Yeah it was right around the 12th or 13th of November. Interviewer: Okay so November of ’67. Okay, alright now what was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there? Hotter than hell. And they had a smell, a certain smell to it and I don't think I'll ever forget that smell. That, it was like the whole country. Wherever, we went, all across the country as it was a- a certain smell, I don't know what it was. And hot and muggy. Interviewer: Did you land during the day or at night? I think it was, I think it was morning. Early mid-morning or something like that. Interviewer: And you got off the plane, what do they do with you? (20.49) �Well there to it- I think we, as I recall we all got on a bus again and taxied over to a bunch of billets set up. And we were assigned a certain, you had to get up. They had like a big parade ground and everybody, certain times a day I don't, two/ three times a day you had to report there, and they'd call your name off. And tell you then, they'd say, “okay here you go on here, there, or wherever.” And at that time, I don't recall what I do exactly but somehow, I finagled my way into getting into the 1st Cav and I was at Cam Ranh Bay for I think two days. And first- first night there I pulled guard duty I still remember this. Here we're in a war zone, they give you at that time it was an m14. They gave you three bullets, I said, “what the hell are you supposed to do with three bullets?” And there's bunch of us, I don't know their names now but in this bucket we're all scared shitless, you know you don't know what the heck's going on. But three bullets, what the hell, I guess it's for me you, and, you I guess if there's a bunch of them coming but that struck me as weird. (22.19) Interviewer: Were you actually on the kind of exterior perimeter were you inside the base somewhere on guard duty? I don't remember now; I would hate to think it was on the perimeter, you know with three bullets but that's what we were assigned. Given a helmet, a flak jacket, a m14 and three bullets it seemed like. For some reason that’s… it might not even be true I don't know but that's what it seems like I remember. Interviewer: It was a big base and particularly if you were somewhere in the interior of it then… Yeah. Interviewer: They really didn't expect it to be any bullets. So… Yeah- yeah but… �Interviewer: Alright but then at some point, now but no, couple days now you get your orders and they say 1st Cav? Yep. Interviewer: Okay so now where did you get, where were they- where were they when you joined them? They were in An Khê, it's kind of Central Highlands there and I remember getting on a C… I don't know if it was a C-130 or a C-123, one of the two and flying into An Khê base, and I remember they got a, they called it monkey mountain I think it was. Big mountain had a huge- huge 1st Cav patch painted on it and that was my first, you know sight that I saw there. And then I remember there was like maybe seven-day in-country training thing that we had to do. We had a- because I was trained as a truck driver. So, I had no infantry training to speak of and so we had to rappel off this big-ass tower and oh my god I just couldn't see myself doing that. But I remember going down there and somehow ended up upside down, going down and looking upside down at the sergeant “you’re an idiot, get up there and do it right.” I climbed back up there and then I finally did it and then I was okay from that, but he looked at me from here to here, “you’re an idiot.” (24.41) Interviewer: Alright, so now in this sort of week-long training course, did- did you now fire an m16? Yeah that was my first time I fired a m16 there and in fact I never saw, after I left Cam Ranh Bay, I never saw a m14 again. And, or not, I've seen them but not had… Interviewer: Never had had to use one, yep. Okay, now what else was included in the training your rappelling, learning how to go out of helicopters I guess and then the basic weapons? �Yeah, I guess throw a couple grenades we had to do a little, kind of like a patrol I think in a, I know it was a secure area, but you're still very ya know, nervous. But that's it, pulling guard duty, you know we had to pull guard duty all the time. And I don't remember muchmuch more of the training other than that rappelling that kind of, it nailed in my head. Interviewer: Right, do you think they try to teach you anything about Vietnam, or the society, or how to behave while you're there? (25.51) Oh yeah, I remember that yeah, you yeah, they, I think that was classroom stuff. And it going through the money, I never even thought of that until you brought that up, but yeah. To treat them like respect because you're in their country and you know don't shoot their water buffaloes don't do this, and do that, and just you know treat them like you would you're a guest in your country. Okay. Interviewer: And did you get warned about VD and things like that? Oh yeah, it's funny too because An Khê … I don't know if I should even bring that up but An Khê, right outside An Khê and there's a little village of An Khê. And inside that village is like another little village it's called Sin City and it's u-shaped. And I remember it's all bars and whorehouses in it, and that's where I spent my 18th birthday. I got a day pass from our CEO and I had a great, great 18th birthday and then CEO wasn't real happy, because the, this was after my in country training. Interviewer: Right. Because the MPs brought me back, and, but it was a memorable 18th birthday. Interviewer: How long did you stay at An Khê? (27.22) �Oh well I want to say in January until January, because I'm almost positive I spent Christmas there. And I remember I was signed to this company, S4, I was in S4 the at the time and C Company, they had like a listening post or some posts outside the wire. And they got attacked and they, it's too close to take helicopters and so they- they sent four of us truck drivers, and four trucks, and C Company and I remember I was in the lead truck and there's a guy, Top Fowler he was a first sergeant in C Company he later got killed and up by Khe Sanh, but I remember him telling me, “just do as I say, if we start, if we start getting shot at,” he said “stop the truck immediately, turn it off and get your ass out of the truck.” I don't know, I'd only been in country maybe two weeks, or three weeks, or something like that. And I says, “okay.” And I… you know we got so far, and then there was some shooting going on and I'm looking around and he says, “out now” and I got my belt hooked. I had like an issued belt, hooked on a- something on the truck when I went to jump and I couldn’t get off there and he comes running around there and he “shewww” with his survival knife, he cuts it into two and I fell out and I look and then it was over. And just that quick everything was over, and I got with the other truck drivers and we're looking at these trucks. As much shooting and shit that was going on, there wasn't one bullet hole or nothing. I said, ‘this can't be that bad, those guys are bad shots.” So, all needless to say that we had fun with that. (29.27) Interviewer: Now at this point did you have, were you assigned to a, you were in a battalion but were you still a truck driver at that point? Yes, I was assigned to S4 company, I think it was S4, just the supply. �Interviewer: Okay Supply Company and is this for, is this a division, regiment, battalion level or? Company, company. Interviewer: Okay well you're a company but are you… Battalion, battalion level so and what we did is we drove the trucks and they had these mules they called these things and we would shuttle a lot, the supplies, as the supplies came in whether it be ammo or whatever and we supply go take them to different companies that needed it. And load helicopters for supply that was being sent out and stuff like that. And we also did I think there was some mail when the mail came in somebody would sort it and we'd make sure to get on the right helicopters and stuff like that. (30.30) Interviewer: Okay now what was your parent unit that you were attached to? Which battalion of the? 1st- 1st Air Cav, 1st of the 5th. Interviewer: Okay 1st Battalion, 5th Regiment then. Yes. Interviewer: Okay, alright so you’re at An Khê for a while and basically, you're doing that- that supply duty basically and driving and that kind of thing and then sometime in January you move? Where do you move? It seems like it was January. Interviewer: That- that fits the division’s chronology so where did you go? We convoy in again we, C Company was on our trucks and we convoyed. There's a huge convoy and it seems that it was Highway 1, we went all, we went up through Phu Bai, Hué, �Da Nang, we had, we are, we were going to Quang Tri. And that's where we finally ended up and on the way up there one of those villages, it's kind of strange how you go through these village, you go slow, the people and the kids are running in and out and guys were throwing C, some C- rations and/ or some candy to the kids, and I hit a little kid on a bicycle and I didn't kill him, but got kind of screwed up a little bit I guess. Broken, I don't know exactly what happened but from that time on, I finished that convoy, but from that time on I guess the army figured that I wasn't really meant out to be a truck driver. So, I thought wow I wonder what the hell is gonna happen now. And then they assigned me to an infantry out-- company and then that's when I, I was with, I was hoping I'd be with C company anyways if it, if I had to because I knew at least the first sergeant. And but I was assigned to an A Company, the 1st of the 5th, and that's where you know, and it was a good company I had, like I said I had no infantry training and fairly new to country, a couple months and eighteen. And there was a guy, Carly Gunther was his name. He's from Minnesota, nice, he's older guy but everybody was older to me then. (33.05) Interviewer: So, he could've been like 20 or something, or 22. Yeah but he was little older. He had- he had I think two kids and he kind of took me, he was a sergeant, and he took me under- under his- his arm and kinda you know because I didn't… and- and he- he helped me a lot. And- and so, I stayed with him and then you know I did a lot of liaison work between supply and stuff and a lot of radio communications and stuff like that and they kind of kept me be at- you know not, what can I say… �Interviewer: Well got you orientated basically, learned how, about how the unit works and what goes on. Right and so mostly well Friar you used to work in supply so you're gonna be our contact with that, if we need something, you're gonna get your butt on radio, so that's basically most of what I did. And but it was- it was altogether a different animal you know; I mean out there on the field. Interviewer: Okay now what were you on a base when you got up there or what kind of setup did they have? Well when we got there Quang Tri they had a, it was a beach area it's called The Wonder Beach and we had to secure that and then keep patrolling it all the time. Because the Navy was bringing these huge amphibious, I've never seen anything so big and floating and then it would go right onto the ground. Huge things, and they would bring supplies. So we had to secure that whole Wonder Beach area for quite a while we did that and that, we were there through the Tet up there in Quang Tri and I recall how what a bitch it was walking in the sand, you know ugh, you know beautiful beach but yet how it wasn’t real friendly and… (35.05) Interviewer: Now the Tet Offensive starts January 30th/ 31st not long after you've gotten up there. Did your base get attacked when that started? Or was it quiet where you were? There was… we had an air assault in a couple areas where they were but The Wonder Beach itself, I don't remember them being attacked, you know like that but in the- in the town of Quang Tri it was kind of bad. And there were, some of our companies, I don't �remember which ones, but we would have to air assault into certain areas to help out another company and this and that. And but it was- it was, wasn’t real fun- fun you know. Interviewer: Now when they were doing the air assaults were you going with them now? Yes, yeah- yeah. Interviewer: Okay and what was it like doing that for the first time or do you remember that at all? Oh I remember exactly, it's, I don't know how you really explain it, a lot of fear and- and I don't remember how many air assaults I went on with those guys but most of them were quiet LZ's you know maybe a couple now there would be hot but… Interviewer: Well when the call came to go out and do one of these things what happens? How did they organize the company to go and launch them on a mission like that? (36.41) Well I remember we'd all kind of, well we’d get our stuff, our packs, our rucksacks, and ammos issued out. Everything that you would need; grenades, everybody carried a bunch of sixty caliber, and we all carried at least one mortar round. And then we just kind of wait for the helicopters to come in, they’d come in we’d, as I recall six/ seven guys maybe get on a bird at a time and go out and do your thing. It was kind of exciting riding in the helicopters, to this day I'd love to do it again, but you know, especially under certain, different circumstances. But it was very frightening, I you know I won't say I- I ever got used to it, but I- I remember that the intensity wasn't as bad, you know in my mind that II just kind of knew what I had to do type of thing. Interviewer: Now what was the terrain like in that area that area? �That area was… there's a lot of sand all over. Not a lot of trees but kind of I would say you know kind of coastal type thing. I don't remember a whole lot there cause we didn't do a whole lot air assaults up there, it was mostly when we went up to Khe Sanh area. And there too, it wasn't a lot of air assaults, but it was a lot of walking and that was- that was like a jungle then and that was bad up in there. Interviewer: Okay do you have a sense of about how long you spent at Quang Tri? Another three months or four? (38.40) It doesn't seem… oh no I wasn't nowhere that long. I don't know maybe month and a half it seems like. Interviewer: Okay, alright. And then there was different camps. If that long, because then we went to a different, there were different base camps, think Camp Evans was one and there was- there was a- a Camp Jane, I’m not… Interviewer: Okay well you're moving around still in the area that's kind of between Quang Tri and Huế basically, kind of up in the northern coastal areas, different bases. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay, alright now did you have much information on kind of what was going on in the larger war at that point? Did you know about the fighting in Huế and that kind of thing? Or the siege of Khe Sanh? We- we had heard about it some- some. You know but not, we knew it was, you know a lot was going on all through the country. But I- I remember when we were going up there, going through Huế and it was a beautiful- beautiful old, I mean it was just like you would �see in a movie or museum, it was beautiful town. And then I know seven months- several months later I was coming back through, cause I was coming out of a hospital somewhere and- and rolled through there. And look around at the devastation of that town, I- I just heartbroken, oh my god what a historical thing just it's in rubble. But we- we hung around in there a lot, up in that, I would say between Quang Tri and Khe Sanh area until… I remember LZ Peanuts that's what I got that concussion and was during that Pegasus thing. (40.38) Interviewer: Okay can you explain what- what operation Pegasus was. What we, what I remember and what I was, remember being told was that the Marines were in Khe Sanh, they were surrounded and stuff. And we had to go in from outside and work our way to help them and never dreamt that it would be anything at all what it was. And there was one of our companies said he heard tracks. Everybody said, “we don't have no tanks up here.” “No,” this was on the radio because I was on the radio and he says, “no, this isn’t our tracks.” They heard ‘em, now I don't know if they saw ‘em or not and that was C company. That was in April I think it was when we were up in there and then May 3rd or 4th at Peanuts as well, we got hit pretty bad. We almost got overrun and that Fowler, that Sergeant Tom Fowler got- got killed there and I think it was May 3rd. (41.52) Interviewer: Okay now can you, before that this is at the LZ Peanuts was that you said or? Yes. Interviewer: Okay what, how much actual fighting was your company in before that? �Oh well it wasn’t 24/7 or anything like that, it was quite, it was off and on. And we’d be, a lot of it was pulling patrols and you’d always run into ‘em and I don't know how much it was. Interviewer: Well would they be relatively short firefight? Yes, yeah, they were maybe hour, at the most hour or something like that cause we had a pretty good air coverage you know and artillery coverage so… Interviewer: So, the enemy would find you and then it gets too dangerous for them and they go away? Well they would let the, let it be known that they were there, we lost quite a few guys though up in there then and… (42.54) Interviewer: Now when you were patrolling, would it be platoons going together or would it be a squad level or? Was almost all, minimum was platoon and you weren't very far from your other, the company. Interviewer: Right. And yeah especially up there it was never, a lot of times it was the whole company, you know. Interviewer: And when you went out, would you carry a radio or were you just carrying m16 or? Oh well for most of the time when I first got in, I was carrying a radio and then I had an M16 and a 45. And- and a ton of batteries, those batteries didn’t last real long, there were, the radio is called I think 25 or something like that. Heavier than hell and I wasn't real big �and so plus you're always carrying some 60 caliber [30 caliber ammunition for an M60 machine gun] stuff too but, yeah that's basically what a, you know. (44.01) Interviewer: Okay but you weren't having to walk point or things like that? No- no I never had, I never had, I never walked point no, I'm glad I didn't but so. Interviewer: Okay and how well do you think that the men in your company were performing at that time, could they, did they know their jobs and do them pretty well? Yeah, yeah- yeah as far as for the most part we all lived so I knew we were doing- doing our job pretty good and none of the officers or anybody bitched at us or anything. I know some people will say, “well a lot of the guys didn't- didn't follow orders.” I said, “I never saw that,” everybody, I mean they may question, “why do you want me to charge that or why do you want me to do that?” There was, but ultimately it got done but I never saw, I never saw anybody disobey an order at least not do anything. (45.05) Interviewer: Well in general will the officer’s ones where they seem to know what they were doing and gave you sensible orders rather than crazy ones? Right yeah sometimes you’d get a new lieutenant enter and I think captain now and then went through. They, I think they changed every six months or something like that and so that but a lot, they were, the second lieutenants I think there was a couple of them kind of were off-the-wall but… Interviewer: Well with that would the sergeants keep them in line, or would they do it again? Yeah, yeah because the CEO would sit down, he would, cause I was by him a lot cause being an RTO and- and he would- he would set them guys down when they first came in it �though, you know, this is, you know you don't know shit, you just do what these guys tell ya. Even if they are sergeants or even a corporal or whatever they've been here for a while you just learn from them and- and for the most part they did. Interviewer: Okay so you had good captain's? Oh yeah- yeah even when I was in S4 I had a good captain and he ended up in a, as a company leader too in the infantry so it's kind of like a rotation everybody did their thing. Interviewer: Okay now to talk about that event, LZ Peanuts when that gets attacked and you get hurt. So, what happened that night? Well it was a- a pretty good-sized base. They had, we had to secure that, we air assault into that and just kind of cleared it out. And it wasn't no big deal then and then they brought some artillery in, I think that’s 105 Howitzers, the smaller canons. Interviewer: Yeah. (46.53) There was, I don’t know, four or five of them, LZ Peanuts was shaped like a peanut I guess that's why they called it like that. And down on this side, was where the artillery was, those Howitzers were set up and we had bunkers all around. We made bunkers and we had a CP up over here. And we're getting incoming all the time; rockets and mortars, mostly rockets. And at one time I was up in the CP and I always had to unload the helicopters and- and I kind of liked it because a lot of those guys would come out and throw this stuff off and I knew ‘em, so I’d say hey to ‘em and stuff, you know. And me and another guy, another guy got stuck with me too, JT Holman, he was- he was out there with me. Then a rocket came in followed a helicopter and- and that's where I got my concussion, but I didn't go to the hospital then, I had broke my eardrum cause I couldn't hear and a little blood out of there. �And he said, “oh you'll be alright,” they just put some cotton in my ear, “you won't be able to hear for a while out of that ear,” and now I got tinnitus in that ear. But anyways a rocket after that, a rocket, this is, it's either May 3rd, May 4th or May 5th. And it was right after Top Fowler got killed, everybody was down. I was really feeling bad cause I, you know, I really liked him, he helped me, and I saw him a couple times. And I was really bad, feeling bad but a rocket came in, it caught one of the ammo dumps. Got that, and that shit was going and burning and so, what they ended up having to do is pull back. We had to evacuate that area cause we couldn't control nothing. So, everybody pulled back and I remember a lot of those artillery guys, left their- their guns and everything in the damn bunkers when they came. And we ended up gettin’, there was some, it was May 4th and some sappers got in the wires that night and they came, and a lot of ‘em came through that area where we evacuated, and the artillery had had a Jeep that they drove on this, I don't know how in the hell they got it out there, you know the area... Interviewer: Yeah. But- but that's what they went, their ammo came in, that's what they used the Jeep to go get the and bring it down to their area. That thing got blow to hell up there, pretty close about right where the- the Peanut. (49.52) Interviewer: So, basically, were you know occupying one half of the Peanut rather than the whole Peanut? I'd say yeah- yeah, I got a half a Peanut here, yeah maybe a little bit more than half. And there's a huge bomb crater I guess from two thousand pound, I don't know what it was, that was there all the time. And a lot of us, I wasn’t in that and we were getting fired on �from the bunkers that we evacuated area, and a lot of it was m16s coming at us. So, that's when a lot of guys got pissed off, you know from the artillery guys. And that was a pretty bad night, we had to get, I had to call in emergency resupply of ammo. They couldn't land so they- they had it on a sling and I remember when I was in S4 too, somebody had that and everybody back in that area filled the magazine, because you don't have time to fill magazines when you're getting that. They were filling magazines like a raped ape, you know and all those would come out and they came in, and they just drop it, get as close as they could, cause there was a lot of shit going on there, that was bad. And that damn thing that sling, I popped the smoke, and shit it was from me to the door away, 20 foot. Damn near killed me, you know it came in and then the shit just flew and so then I had to start going around and passing, I you know I- I- I was kind- kind of the gofer type and so… I was handing out ammunition to everybody and then probably I was gettin’ towards dawn. (51.48) Interviewer: Now were, was there still shooting going on that point? Oh yeah, the whole time, now the whole night, well I'll say after… probably sometime after midnight, probably two o'clock it started. We had, we went out gooks in the wire and a couple of trip flares go off, then our- our illumination we sent up illumination. Interviewer: Did the sappers get into your part of the base or they mostly on the other part of it? They got real close to us, inside the other base, yeah. And they were- they were real close, that from our, where the CP was set up, that Jeep was maybe 30, maybe 50 yards from there. And there was a bunch of them behind that and the next day there was a lot of… and there wasn't that Jeep, there wasn't a- an inch, half inch area where there wasn't holes all over from shrapnel, from bullets, and there was quite a few dead ones behind there. And �there was quite a few of them all over, but I remember just kind of piled up behind that Jeep, and I thought, oh Jesus, but that's how close they got to the CP though. In that big bunker where we were, myself, and that other guy, there's a couple of us in there, shit that was, that was real close to that and… but. (53.29) Interviewer: Okay but by dawn basically the- the fighting is over, and they left and…? Well just before dawn yeah. Interviewer: Okay and so now did you stay at that place much longer? Did they move you out after that? Oh, they moved us out after that, we lost quite a few guys that Carly he got killed that night and I was devastated and… Interviewer: Did they take you out of the field for a little while after that? Yeah, well couldn't go very far. To be truthful with you, I don't remember a whole heck of a lot out of that after- right after that, because I had that concussion thing going on andand I don't really… there's a time period from that moment until I guess we were leaving Khe Sanh area that I just kind of- there's a blank. Interviewer: Okay. (54.31) And- and then- then we kind of started working our way I think south. Interviewer: Yeah because the division was moving into the A Shau Valley which was south of there. Yeah, yeah. �Interviewer: That and along the two, the sides of it and that kind of thing. And they're setting up, there are fire bases being set up. Yep. Interviewer: And people are going down the middle of the valley and looking for things. I remember going, landing at a, from a helicopter landing at a- a fire base. It was these eight-inchers I had never been close to those eight-inchers. And those were big, shit, you tried, those things go off oh my God, the ground shock and we were there for a couple of days. And, but that almost seems like it was like a, seemed like a plateau or something. Interviewer: Well eight-inches howitzers, now there were self-propelled you'd, weren't they? I mean self-propelled guns, so they were on like tank chassis. Oh no, these were regular gun. (55.29) Interviewer: Oh, they’re just- they’re just guns, okay. Yeah. Interviewer: Cause that, those because the self-propelled ones couldn't get up into the A Shau but you could still bring, use a helicopter to bring ‘em. Yeah that's what they, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah and we had to secure that for a while and that's my first recollection after Peanuts. I don't remember a whole lot after Peanuts I don’t, I can't explain why, but it is what it is. I remember landing at an air base or a fire base where those eight-inchers were. And it was kind of out in the open, it wasn't no woods or nothing. And then one of the companies walked into a, an ambush not- not long after, maybe a day or so after that. I- I couldn't tell �you where, I know it was in the A Shau Valley because that's where we were going, but I don't remember any of the names of anything. Interviewer: Right. I find, kinda don't remember a whole lot right directly after Peanuts. (56.32) Interviewer: Okay. For some reason. Interviewer: And so, you have a vague sense, okay you're in the A Shau you're doing some of this stuff. Now for the most part were you staying on the fire bases or were you going out with the guys on patrols? I was kind of back and forth, you know mostly I was out with the guys a lot because thethe losses were- were piling up pretty bad and so, but I spent a lot of time out there with ‘em and as it was, I'd rather be out there than you know, with people that knew what the hell was going on and with guys that didn’t. But I still had some friends, you know back in the rear area too that stayed in contact with us. Especially when we'd rotate a little bit, we'd go back, I remember a couple times they would have, time there where they would have these, I would go back to a- a bigger rear area. Interviewer: So, a stand-down basically? (57.29) Kinda yeah, you'd pull perimeter guard around us, but it's a big base and, we were always told that you could have two beverages a day. It could be two beers, two pops, or a beer and a pop, but we couldn't get it out there, so they saved it for and then our sarge… our CO, when we went back to that somehow they always had these dehydrated steaks and we had a �big party. And the other company before they left, we would go back, and we’d have at least one night where we could just, you know we had those, it was like a big picnic party. Steaks and just as much beer or pop or whatever you wanted to drink, as you could drink. And these big ole’ garbage cans with ice in it, that all this rice- ice had rice, I don't know where the hell they got the ice from, but I remember those. There was a couple times we did that, that was- that was fun. (58.32) Interviewer: Now how long did this sort of pattern go on, of your kind of in that A Shau? Did you, that operation end at some point? Or did you go someplace else? Or get sick? Or something happened… Yeah. Interviewer: But- but what- what changes that pattern? I know, see that's what I- I’m not, I can't hardly think of that because from May until then the next December, I guess it was just kind of so routine that I don't really remember, just that we're in that A Shau Valley area and then, actually feel kind of like a dumbass for not remembering a lot of that stuff, but it was so routine, I don’t, I just, I don't remember a lot of it. And then I remember for one thing I was gone, I extended, and I wanted to get out of the field completely. Interviewer: Okay. And so they say if you extend you can get your choice when you come back where you want to do but I wanted to work back in the supply to S4 where I was because I still wanted to help, support the guys so. Interviewer: So, when did you decide to extend or? �(59.47) I'd say it was November or something like that. Interviewer: Because you would have been due to rotate out in November if you got there the November before. I think it was then because I was home for Christmas for of ‘68 and I remember I was home when I got orders that I made sergeant. They mailed that stuff to my home which I was kind of shocked. And but then I left right- right after Christmas apparently. I know I spent the New Year's Eve in Tacoma and that's where I went out from again. Interviewer: Now you backtrack a little bit, do you remember anything about that trip home on leave. I mean how they get you out there or if you saw any protesters in the airport or anything like that? Oh yeah- yeah well you know I left the field. I can't remember what date it was but anyway… and flew back to, in the helicopter to An Khê and we got our stuff there that's where we left all our. Interviewer: Right. Personal, that you couldn't take with right, so I got that and got some, got out of our fatigues and then some tans a dress, not the greens but the… Interviewer: Yeah. (1:01.22) Yeah khaki and then going to… I don’t know what time I came home I know the second time Bien Hoa. I might have went back to Cam Ranh Bay and flew back out of there. Interviewer: That’s quite possible. �Yeah and then came in by Fort Ord California and there was protestors all over and I didn't pay much attention to them, I didn’t give a shit. Interviewers: Did you stay in your uniform or did you change clothes? Yeah, I no, I stayed in my uniform. Interviewer: And then what was it like to go home? You’ve been in the Vietnam for a year. (1:02.02) Yeah it was weird, it was weird. We, myself, I met a guy in California he was going to somewhere. I was going, I had to go through Chicago and then catch a flight. And we were in the airport together. He had, he was 21 and so he bought a bottle you know, and we were sipping it on the plane even and from Fort Ord. I- I really don't didn't pay much attention to those guys, the protestors and stuff. And I wasn't gonna get out of my uniform. I know some guys. Second time I did but anyways. We got to Chicago and we both missed our flight, he was going onto, I don't know. Interviewer: Somewhere else. I don't remember yeah and we both miss our flight, so we had to spend a night in the Chicago Airport. Didn't have a whole lot of money, well I had a lot, but it wasn’t you know it’s; I can't remember if it was… Interviewer: Did you have military script or what? Normally they would change that for you when you leave. (1:03.04) Yeah because I, what I did is I saved all my money when I was in Vietnam, I wanted to buy a car when I got home. And so, but anyways we were Chicago I don't remember, and we had some money, but I didn't want to spend it for a hotel. �Interviewer: Right. Shit, I think the flight was like six/ seven o'clock in the morning. So, we were just sitting there and there was a bar in the- in the airport, so well let's go. I says, “I won't be able to get served but you never know.” So, we go in there and they served me, I couldn't believe it I was- I was still 18. And but then we were sitting there and we got something to eat, a hamburger and a couple of beers we were drinking and we go to pay and they were closing up and now we're just kind of killing thing and we go to pay, say, “oh no it was all paid for.” I said, “what do you mean?” Says a guy paid for it, he lost a nephew in Vietnam. And, I'm sorry. Interviewer: That's okay, but it sort of- it sort of balances the protester thing out. (1:04.24) Yeah. Interviewer: There were people who still appreciated what you were doing. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay and then when- when you got home, was it hard to connect with people? Yeah, I didn't really see a lot of the guys I used to hang around with much. I kind of had a, my mind set that I wanted to get a car. I had, back then you could buy cars pretty good, pretty cheap. So, I bought a, it was this 1967 Firebird 400, faster than a streaky shot and I paid, I had 27 hundred for, saved up cause I didn’t, there's no place to really spend the money. I did go on R&R but spent a couple hundred bucks. That was another thing in Bangkok, 18-year-old kid in Bangkok. Interviewer: Okay. �But so- so, and my brother had to cosign for $300 for it and he did. And so, I- I drove that for 20-some, 30 days whatever my leave was. And had no fear, that was in the days where you could go downtown and you just up and down the circuit, you know back and forth. (1:05.43) Interviewer: Did you get any tickets? Uh no I never got any tickets but… Interviewer: Because a car like that would kind of invite them. Yeah, I never got caught I guess is what it was. I remember racing the Corvette going down Plainfield Avenue from downtown, and are you familiar with the city? You know where Colebrook is? Where they… Interviewer: Yeah. There's a little curve there that goes up on Plainfield and I don't know if it was stupidity or just really fear didn't, you know lived through Vietnam, I mean I'm not gonna die here, but goal in mind, we were going over 100 miles an hour racing down there and I thought well my brother, my younger brother was with me I said, “well Nick you better fasten that up.” He says, “I ain't gonna stop,” and see whoever would stop would probably, you know lose the race, but he slowed down, the Corvette slowed down and I kept going. My brother was so pissed at me, you know so. But yeah, I don't know it was kind of weird I just didn't have any fear. Interviewer: Okay. (1:06.50) Yeah. �Interviewer: Now when that leave comes to an end what’s it like going back out to Vietnam again? It was hard, it was difficult, but I felt kind of good cause I had some sergeant stripes that I got pinned on there. And- and it was- it was a little bit different in a way that I got out to Tacoma and I kinda farted around there, I wanted to see the sights. There’s not much to see cause it's always raining like, at least when I was there. But not really AWOL I guess; I missed a flight leavin’ and so stayed another night. Got pretty drunk with another guy I met there, he was heading back too and so we just kinda thought, well we're, we've done this before. We can take an extra day or two and so I got back kind of late, took the next day, we got a flight out and, but it was- it was kind of hard. Flew back into Cam Ranh Bay again and of course I had orders, so I didn't have to go all through that. Next day I guess, spent the night there and then flew up to, actually didn't fly to An Khê at all, went right to Tây Ninh. (1:08.11) Interviewer: Okay now for people who don't know anything, you had been, An Khê is- is kind of in- in the middle of the country essentially, Quang Tri and all of that was up north. Way up north. Interviewer: Now where is Tây Ninh? As far as I can remember, it's over along, the Cam- Cam- Cambodia border. Interviewer: It's kind of west of Saigon. Yeah- yeah west of Saigon, I don't know it was- it was about, lower part of… Interviewer: Yeah. …of Vietnam. �Interviewer: Yeah, third tour, three tour was the general area that Saigon traveled in. Yeah, yeah and we worked out of there for quite and- and mostly though I- I did get what I was supposed to do. They did try to send me out there because as soon as I go back, they said, “we really need you out there, Tommy,” and I says, “well I'm not gonna do it.” And so things have changed quite a bit and but I ended up going back and forth a little bit and then I kinda, I was really kind of rebellious about it too and it kinda pissed me off because I didn't want to go out to the field again. And but they needed me, and I- and I still didn't want to go, because most of the guys were gone, you know a lot of guys got killed again, even in the short period that I was gone and then in deros or… (1:09.31) Interviewer: Yeah, like rotate home. Yeah, rotate home and so there wasn't a whole lot of guys out there, but I still wanted to do it. And the old CO was still there, he had a couple months to do yet, and he was the one that really wanted me out there and so he got kind of pissed at me. But you know, what are you gonna do? So, then they tried to make me go out and- and I then I- I am started bitching about it and I filed some papers and I don't remember exactly what it was to get out of, to go home period because you didn't stand by your contract with me and this and that. And that was long as it was it took forever to get out of there. So, but I- I- I stayed until May, I- I stayed my whole second tour. Interviewer: Now did you spend most of your time on fire bases then? (1:10.24) Yeah it was a fire base in Tây Ninh. It was pretty good-sized firebase. Interviewer: Was the division headquarters there or? �I want… I'm not positive if it was there it could have been at Bien Hoa, I don't know. Interviewer: You might have had a rear area in Bien Hoa anyway, but. Yeah that was a, Bien Hoa was a big area, or base. And I remember went to an R&R myself and another guy and we came back and we didn't want to go to our company yet, so we were kind of just driving around Bien Hoa. We flew back into Bien Hoa and just kind of going around and got one of the NCO clubs there and stuff. And it came out and there was a Jeep sitting there, nobody around. So, the other guy said, “let's take that Jeep.” So, we just, we were bar hoppin’ in Bien Hoa. Drunker than shit and there was a- a Filipino base there and we stopped by that. There was a bar we came out and they- they say, “you guys want to sell that Jeep?” “What?” And anyways that's a long story too and but we started… Interviewer: Well did you sell the Jeep? (1:11.39) No, we- we tried to, and we wanted to we, well I- well I don't know I- I guess I shouldn't even say that but we ended up trading that is what we ended up doing. And they gave us a ride back to our base for a bunch of beer; San Miguel beer. We got two pallets of San Miguel beer for that Jeep. And we were AWOL coming back so the CO thought, “well I got you now” and say, “yeah but what do you want us to do with all this beer?” “What beer?” “There's a, the Filipinos they brought a deuce and a half full of two pallets of beer. Well right here we got this for the company. “Where the hell?” “I don't know sir, we just found it,” you know it's- it’s here for the company. And so, nothing happened, they wanted, they were gonna give us Article 15 for being late. And earlier in my tour when we were up at Wonder Beach, you get a day off now and then and what they would do is they take a couple guys out on a Navy ship when one of those big amphibious things come in. They �drop, and three or four guys could go out and spend a day on a Navy ship. I did that one time and that was fun, I mean you’re talking about good food the Navy had, holy crap. And then another time me and another guy fell asleep on our air mattresses on a surfin’, we were body surfing and we had these air mattresses. I fell asleep and I got sunburned terrible- terrible and I get an Article 15 for that; destroying government property. Interviewer: There you go. (1:13.16) I thought holy crap because I couldn't go out to the field for a couple days ‘till the blisters and stuff went down. Interviewer: Alright so in those last month's when you're back there, I mean what were you actually doing in terms of duty? In- in Tây Ninh? Interviewer: Yeah. I was loading helicopters and stuff like that. Talking to their radio operator, they would call me and communicate there. Did all the companies not just the company I was in. Interviewer: Right. And I just kind of, you know because I was a sergeant then and I was just making stuff happen, you know getting, making sure they got their, everything that they needed and stuff and- and a lot of times too, S, guys that got wounded or something would come back and they couldn't go out in the field for a couple, for a while whatever it was, they would work in S4 too. So, we are all kind of, you know making sure those guys but mostly their company was getting, you know whatever they could. And, but I was doing it for, you know all four companies. �Interviewer: Okay. (1:14.26) And I, I think at that time somewhere in- in there, they you know there was another base go back before we went to Tây Ninh, or I went to in country R&R. Now I can't remember the base, maybe it was a pretty good-sized base. I went to in country R&R. Interviewer: Was it along the coast somewhere or was it inland? No, it was inland. The in country R&R was on a coast yes, it was at Vung Tau. Interviewer: Yep Or something like that, but I can't remember where the base camp was. It might have been somewhere like you were saying that it was somewhere in the A Shau Valley area, but I- I don’t… Interviewer: Well it wouldn’t be in, you wouldn’t- you wouldn't do R&R in the A Shau I mean. No- no but I went from there to the R&R thing and then came back to that. It was a pretty good sized base, they had a deuce and a halfs, in fact that's first time I ever shot a 50 caliber, they had a quad was it quad or…? Interviewer: Well they had quads and they had twins. Twins- twins that's what I shot was a twin [twin .50 caliber machine gun]. I always wanted to shoot one of them things and- and one night they had on these back bases they had like a mad minute so everybody that did have their weapons could go out and test them and stuff. And I traded something, I think it was a belt buckle, North Vietnamese belt buckle, to this I don't know if it was the Navy or Seabee that had the twin 50s but they had that set up there and I wanted to shoot that so I tried and hey he let me shoot it. So, I shot the shit outta that, that was fun, louder than hell. �(1:16.10) Interviewer: Alright, now you'd mentioned somewhere along that you'd gotten malaria. Yeah. Interviewer: What point did you come down with that? How far into your tour? It was there… that's one of the, between Quang Tri… Interviewer: So, it was before you went home? Yeah- yeah it was. Interviewer: So, before the leave, yeah? I'm trying to think now, because that might have been before we went to… it was, before we went up to Peanuts. It was between Wonder Beach and be, and- and when that Pegasus thing started. Somewhere in there, I'm not sure, I don't know the dates. Interviewer: Okay, did you have to go to a hospital for that? Yeah they sent me down to a hospital and I had, they put me in, packed me in ice and put me a helicopter and went straight up for quite high, and brining my temperature down, came down, a couple days, just let me back up so. (1:17.18) Interviewer: And would that recur afterward or did it? They said that you could have it and they told me too when I got out of the service that you're never gonna be able to give blood or anything because it's always there. I said, “really,” but now I- I don't know if it is true or not, I've never tried it cause I don't want to screw somebody else up. Interviewer: Right, but in the meantime, you haven't had any reoccurrences of it since then? No, no. I- I may have but it’s… �Interviewer: If you had it bad, you’d know. Yeah, oh yeah it was like kind of like the flu or something like that, yeah, but no I never had any reoccurrence of that. Interviewer: Okay now you're in the army and you're in Vietnam, it appeared when there was a lot of stuff going on at home, you'd had the King assassination, Kennedy assassination, all the rioting and stuff in ‘68. How much of that filtered over to Vietnam? Or did it affect the way anybody behaved by the time you left? (1:18.14) No- no I- I don't remember a lot of that I- I really didn't pay that much attention to it. I mean the only newspaper, well at one time my grandmother, she sent me a subscription to the Grand Rapids Press. I told her, I admit one time in a letter I wrote home I told her that I miss reading the Grand Rapids Press, so she got me a subscription. I- I just couldn't keep up, I mean I’d get these bags of paper and they’d dump ‘em out, and they’re pissed-off hauling these, Friar Jesus what are you crazy, so I had to call her and tell her to, but everybody read the paper, Grand Rapids Press, the whole company and… Interviewer: Yeah, something to read. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. But, no, I don't remember that. I know like Kennedy got assassinated and stuff but mostly what, I was young too, I was 18, I didn't really give a crap about… Interviewer: Well I mean did the, sort of the attitude or the conduct of the black soldiers change at all over the course of time? (1:19.15) �Well I think more guys started smoking the ‘wacky tobacky’ and stuff like that. And I- I think maybe in the rear areas I- I noticed it when we’d come back in the rear areas. I noticed maybe there's a little, the blacks would hang here, or something like in… but I don't, I never saw any of that out in the field or nothin’. I never, and even in the rear area. Interviewer: It wasn't really creating any kind of larger problems that you were seeing? Not that I saw no. Interviewer: Okay, and then the- the drug use part that's another Vietnam stereotype I guess so you saw some of it on the base camps. Marijuana, not nothing else. I, in fact I tried it too when I would come back from the rear area, I never smoked out there in the field, I was always too paranoid, cripe. Even back when I was in rear area, I was like… but I don't know how that these guys would do it. But- but I never saw any of that hard stuff, everybody's talking about that. I said, shit I never, hell I never even heard of marijuana until I got over there. I didn't know what it was, and I tried it one time and I says, “holy crap,” but I, you know, never. (1:20.36) Interviewer: Yeah, and then did you ever get much of a chance to go into areas that had a large civilian population? Or were you usually kind of on bases and… The only time I did that was like in country R&R when we were coming back from somewhere, you know. Interviewer: And did you see much when you're actually in the areas that you were operating, were there civilians around? Or was it largely depopulated? Depends on where we were pulling the patrol. Sometimes, we’d go through a little village. It was pretty good-sized villages; I mean the kids would come running out trying to sell you �a Coke and stuff like that. And, but, and sometimes there was, it had to pull some guard around a, like a bridge I can't remember where the hell that bridge was but across the river, this is down by Hué I think. And kids were coming around in there so there was, you know population. And- and sometimes in a rear area they would hire some civilians to do, fill sandbags and sometimes cook, and clean, and you know certain things but… Interviewer: What sort of impression did you have of the Vietnamese people themselves at that point? I liked them; you know except for the- the bad ones. Interviewer: Yeah, the ones trying to kill you. (1:22.03) Yeah, I- I enjoyed them, I, to this day I- I- I know some Vietnamese. Guy that flew an airplane is Vietnamese officer. And I- I always, you know I didn't have any, you know problems with it, you know unless they were trying to kill me, you know then took issue with it. Interviewer: And then while you were there did you have any Vietnamese interpreters or scouts or things like that with you? Yeah- yeah, they had them. If we got a prisoner or something like that, but most of the time, we didn't have any, you know. Once in a while but we didn't have any up by Khe Sanh at all. I don't remember any interpreters up there then, but when we were down like in Wonder Beach area, there was a couple around. We would catch some guys and then they would question them and beat the- beat the hell out of them, but you know, but I don't really remember, you know too many, seeing too many interpreters at all. �Interviewer: Okay, alright now when you think about the time that you spent in Vietnam, are there other particular things that kind of stand out in your memory that you haven't brought into the story yet? (1:23.21) Such as? Interviewer: It can be, you know funny things, or unusual things, or things that just- just remind you of Vietnam, or… Well there's a lot of things that remind me of Vietnam. I think it's probably the… neatest thing I- I remember is the camaraderie that we had. I mean you just lived with these guys; I mean you were closer than close. Share canteens, and you’d share c-rations, you’d share, I mean make these c-rations, put it in a, basically in a helmet and mix all kinds of shit in there. And one guy, I went on R&R to Taiwan with him, Danny I can’t think of his last name he's from Pomona, California. And once a month his mom would send him a- a small case of Tabasco Sauce and some sardines, and he'd share ‘em and I remember it to this day I still enjoy a- a- a can of sardines with some hot sauce on them. (1:24.40) Interviewer: Alright. And sharing different, you know just cooking stuff and how do you, how you, just make do with what you got. Making c-rations which terrible tastin’, to try to come up good with stuff. Puttin’ some of the jelly that came in in certain things. Just, you know you get these hot- heat tablets and or sometimes you take the C4 out of the claymores, little ball, and hot, get some hot, you’d cook it right now. And I remember patrolling one time on the road, pulling close security there were gone through checking for mines, truck- truck drivers �there and you’d try to steal a- a fire extinguisher from the truck, and put a couple beers in a sandbag and blow that, to cool the beer down and stuff. And, or trade them, they'd give them to you, they didn’t give a crap. And I think if you're screwing around if you get in kind of in trouble or something, someone says, “oh yeah, you’re gonna do, you know, probably gonna get in trouble for that one.” I remember saying, “well what are they gonna do? Send you to Vietnam?” You know, so. Interviewer: Okay, now when you get to the end of the enlistment, now you're coming back. Do you still have time left to serve after you get home? I had 10 months to serve. Interviewer: Okay and did you have orders of that assignment before you left or did they send that to you after you got home? I think I got that at California. (1:26.16) Interviewer: Okay, alright now talk about leaving Vietnam the second time. Second time I was kind of bitter because you know you hear all that crap going on this and that, you know, and I was only 19. And- and I come back with this guy, JT Holman and that's when I- I did - I did change my clothes and to this day I regret, we had a taxi driver. We taxied from I guess Fort Ord to I don't remember but going across the bridge and we had the driver stop and I threw my medals over the… and I don't know why I did that, I guess it was… I don't know why. And I regret it ever since and I still had that stuff here on my shirt that was in my bag, but my ribbons, I guess. And I don't know why the hell I did that and- and to this day that pisses me off that I even did it, that I let these assholes get in my mind. And but exactly probably as soon as I let go of ‘em I regretted it and to this day �I- I wish I had not done that. But then I- I- I think I got my orders there and then I came home and then I got married. No, I didn't get married then, I came home I was, I went to Fort Eustis and which my wife now. We hung out, and I took a weekend pass and went home and got married and she came back down to Virginia with me. And stayed there for a while, lived off base which was pretty cool. Lived next door to a guy, and we lived in a trailer park. They guy was in the Navy, he was on a nuclear submarine, he was six months on, six months off. So, kind of worked out just before I got out, he got, he had to go for six months, but he was pretty cool guy and we did a little- little bit of traveling around when we were in Fort Eustis. And I kind of had pretty good duty, I, you know they just they didn't want to F with me, you know. And- and cause and most of the guys that were in that thing that I was in, that 5O8th, I was a, oh they made me a, what was it… CBRNCO. Interviewer: And what does that mean? (1:28.56) Chemical, biological, and radiological. Interviewer: Okay. NCO, I says “well what do I gotta do now?” “Well you gotta go take this class.” And I says, “okay,” you know ten months I gotta do, play the game. So, I went took this class and I say, “okay now your company, you're the head CBRNCO.” I said, “so what do I do?” He says, “well you gotta check all the gas masks, you gotta make some guys go through the chamber.” I said, “go through the gas chamber now?” I said, “I'm not going in that damn thing, I did that in basic.” “Well you gotta.” I said “okay, I got a good gas mask then,” and had to do that whole thing and I felt so bad. And there's this black guy, stuttered like crazy as an…in that outfit there. And whenever he got excited he couldn't- he couldn't, you �couldn't understand nothing he said, and you're supposed to say your name, rank, and serial number and he was in there and, you know I said, “okay guys take your stuff off.” And he started stuttering and stuttering and stuttering and he couldn't get it out. And I said, “get your ass out of here,” and… Interviewer: So how did that drill work anyway? What was, how does that play out? You have a bunch of recruits you bring ‘em into a room someplace, then what? (1:30.13) Yeah, they- they pop a bunch of CS in that room, it's not very big. I'd say maybe twelve by twelve or something, it's not a very big room. But it's, like CS I don't know if you ever had it, that stuff burn the shit out if you. If you got any sweat on you, it burns your cheeks and the whole thing and you're supposed to, I guess go through that thing, and… Interviewer: Now as the one who was running it do you get to keep your gas mask on? Oh yeah- yeah, I kept that, I wouldn't do it otherwise because that's, it's hard to breathe, it burns your lungs. It burns your lungs, it's- it’s not- it's not pleasant but yeah, they say you gotta do it, so you know what you're doing to other people. Interviewer: Alright, now would you go in and up to Washington or because far east, is it Petersburg or Williamsburg or? By Newport. Interviewer: Newport, by Newport okay that area, okay so that's- that’s a pretty big kind of base area. Yeah. Interviewer: For the Navy in particular. Alright and was that kind of a supply thing primarily or? I don’t know. �Interviewer: Okay. (1:31.25) All I know is the trucking company we had to make sure the trucks ran and… Interviewer: Right. But when I first got there, what was kind of cool is a- a bunch of us were in this room, we, there was a big barracks there a lot of the guys, but all those sergeants and stuff. We had, we're in a, we had rooms, our own room, well with another guy. And we watched the- the moon, landing on the moon and Armstrong’s speech and everything and that was pretty cool, I remember that, where, so where were you on this day? I remember right where I was. And- and we- we did some travel, one of the guys had a girlfriend in, up by Virginia Beach and we’d go up there now and then and his mom, we'd go out crabbin’, getting’ crabs. And she'd boil it, had big crab dinners, that was fun. Boil it in beer and stuff, it was good. Interviewer: Now did the military make any effort to encourage you to re up or? Oh yeah, yeah, they did, yeah. (1:32.32) Interviewer: What would they offer you? Another stripe, that was the big thing. And I said, “well I got three, I don't really need another one.” And- and then I asked them, I said, “can you guarantee me?” I actually considered it, but I asked, “can you guarantee me I won't go to Vietnam again?” And they said, “we can’t do that,” so I said, “nope, I'm not gonna do it then.” If I, if they would have guaranteed me that I didn't have to go there, “so well we- we, you won't have to go for a �couple years.” But shit the year- war is already ten years old, I didn’t know how long it's gonna last and so I said, “nah.” Interviewer: Okay so when do you actually get your discharge then? May 16th, 15th or 16th it’s the day before the, yeah May 16th, I went in on May 17th and got out on May 16th and… Interviewer: It’s 1970. Yup. Interviewer: And then what do you do after you're out? (1:33.30) Well I had a lot of issues; I was married, and I didn't know what the heck I was gonna do and I drank a lot. And for a long, long time I drank and drank and drank and you know, tried to make shit right but it- it don’t right. And then- and then I found God and it's kind of like a- a burden lifted off my shoulders and that was probably 15 years after I got out but I had a good jobs and I went to school and I didn't finish school, I really never finished a lot of, much of anything. Even I became a die maker and I just couldn't stay in- in a shop. I had, in 30 years, 20-some years I was at 14 different shops; I just, I don't know what the hell is wrong, I you know. But I enjoyed it, and to this day I miss not working on it, but you know and just some things that just piss me off and I just move on. Interviewer: So, what did you wind up doing then after that, once you sorted things out? I stayed in- I stayed oh I went to school for a while and then I owned a pizza place for about nine years enjoyed it, couldn't make no money and family was getting bigger. And so then I- I got a job in tool and die and I was probably about 30 I guess, 35 something like that and I stayed in that and you know I made a decent living and, but you know I had �trouble I just, I don't know, I just, I- I can't explain why but I just went from job to job but I always got a job in the tool and die trade. And I enjoyed it, always enjoyed working with my hands. Now I'm retired, still kind of dabbling in wood and I like remodeling and stuff, so… (1:35.41) Interviewer: Now to look back at the time that you spent in the service, I mean how do you think that affected you positively or negatively? I think it's positive, I think I had no direction before I went in. There was a lot of bad things that happened, but there was in the same token there was more good things that happened, I feel in my case anyway. And I- I think it really saved me I know a lot of the guys I used to hang around with, they got into drugs, one or two overdosed. You know I so, well you know, I just, I- I- I encourage anybody, I think it should be mandatory everybody spent two years in, least in the service or Peace Corps to get away before you go to college, right after, boom, do it you'll- you’ll learn. I think our country would be better off now, you'd be able to, you'd learn how to get along with other people; any color purple, pink, black, anything it's, you, it's what you should do for the country. But it was, I was happy I did, I would do it again. Interviewer: Alright, well we thank you very much for coming in and sharing a story today. Thank you, I enjoyed it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_FriarT1802V Title A name given to the resource Friar, Thomas (Interview transcript and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-07-02 Description An account of the resource Tom Friar was born in December of 1948 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Friar attended Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and then AIT at Fort Dix, New Jersey, where he learned to become a truck driver. Friar was then deployed to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam, in November of 1967 with the S4 Supply Company, 1st Battalion, 5th Regiment, First Cavalry Division at An Khê. He participated in the First Cavalry Air Assaults as well as Operation Pegasus. Returning to the United States in 1969-70, he noticed the increased general hostility towards the Armed Forces in Vietnam. He briefly served as a CBR NCO training recruits at Fort Eustis, Virginia, before leaving the service in May of 1970 and eventually became a tool and die maker. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Friar, Thomas John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30c56dfa183531c1b659106f249e396e.mp4 7c565701a16da9d5a183d0992c4486f7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6edac1a2426c2d27622346bd41da38f.pdf 088057bf3b67f3728086d4d63617a001 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Roger Faber Interview Length: (2:34.18) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens James Smither: We’re talking today with Vietnam veteran, Roger Faber. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Roger, start us off with some background on yourself; and to begin with where and when you were born? Roger Faber: Okay, I was born in Grand Rapids in Butterworth Hospital, November 5, 1945 and… JS: Now did your family actually live in Grand Rapids, or were you outside of it? RF: No, my family lived on Black Hills, in the city-limits, on the southwest side. And they were, I had a good upbringing. I had parents who loved me, they didn’t have a whole lot, but they took care of us. We had shoes and clothes; we had patches in the jeans and so on. But we were given a strong work ethic, it was very important, and also a high respect for authority quite literally. Whether it was a teacher in school, or the policeman, or the next-door neighbor, they were in charge, not- not us. And I was 11 years younger than my next sibling. They had a family, a sister and two brothers, and then I was, came way behind, so I was kind of like the second family. (1.49) JS: Right, you were the baby. RF: I had very nurturing parents and I’m thankful for that. I wish I had thanked them when I had the chance yet but that happens. JS: What were they doing for a living? �RF: My dad was a truck driver and delivered coal, back then, this was you know in the 50s. And my mother was stay at home, didn’t have a driver’s license. But one of my fondest memories is when I came home from school, she sat down with a cup of coffee and I had a glass of milk and some cookies, and we talked about my day. And then she said, “go change your clothes and go out and play.” We didn’t have television, and so we played in the neighborhood. It was a good- a good family, as were the rest of the neighbors. Very diverse, even somewhat racially integrated back then. Black Hills was, it wasn’t a racial thing, it was because of the black walnut trees. But it’s on the southwest side, kind of behind the Keeler Brass buildings on Godfrey. So, that’s where I grew up. JS: Okay, now did you finish high school? (2.55) RF: Oh yes. Yeah, I went to Christian school all the way. From Kindergarten through, I went to Southwest Christian, through ninth grade at the time, and then to Grand Rapids Christian High for three years. I graduated from there in January of 1964. They had half year classes, and you went from one grade to the next in January. And so I got into that; I started out in September, but when I was eight years old, I broke my leg pretty bad and I missed so much school, that I had to go back a half a year, because I missed about half a year. I took that and that’s how I got in that January class so to speak. JS: Alright, and now what did you do after you graduated? (3.37) RF: My brother had a painting business with Langenfaber Decorators. And I started working for him when I was sixteen, and I could drive and get to work. So, during high school, breaks and �summertime, I painted for him. I did that after high school for, I graduated in January ’64 and I did, I worked full time for him until March of ’65 when I went to Ferris. JS: Okay, and then you went so… but at that point, was it Ferris State College? RF: Yes, yeah. JS: Alright and what were you studying there? RF: Architecture. They had a program for architecture draftsmen. And I had had mechanical drafting in high school which I really enjoyed, but I didn’t want to draw threads on a bolt. I thought, you know, and I always had a fascination, I, when I was way back in middle school, I would buy magazines of house plans and study those and think, I can do that! I can do better! And so, I had interest in that and I- I knew I enjoyed painting, I still do, but I knew I that couldn’t do that for 50 years. My body wouldn’t take it. So, I thought, I better do something different. So, I made a decision I would, I, Ferris had that program, so I thought, I’ll apply to there, and if I get in, I’ll- I’ll try that. If I don’t, I will apply to the state police academy. Well, I got in Ferris. And went through, it was an eighteen months continuous program. And went through that and I got out of there in fine shape. I got a job in Madison, Wisconsin. Now this was ’65, ’66; I got done in August I guess of ’66. We were engaged for a year and I met my wife, of course, three years before that, but we dated and then we got married in September of ’66. I had this job in Madison, Wisconsin, but at that time, the draft was really on, cooking, in ’66. And getting back to my upbringing, we had this strong respect for authority, so I was engrained with the thought that don’t volunteer for the army, but if you’re drafted, you have to go, if you. Okay so that was my mindset. And evidently, the schools at that time, I had a student deferment while I was in school, and I can remember getting another deferment in the summer of ’66. But and I thought, well I’m all set for another year, because that’s what they usually were worth. Well, �evidently, the school had to notify your draft board that you’re no longer in school. So, somewhere along that winter of ‘66/’67, I got a notice for a- a physical, I was supposed to show up in Grand Rapids or go to Detroit. Well, I was living in Madison, so they arranged for me to go to, take a bus and go to Milwaukee and have a physical, which I did. That went well. It wasn’t a problem; I didn’t expect it would be. Although I, one interesting story there in Madison, when we got on the bus, the one fella had a prosthesis, a wooden leg. I’m thinking, man oh livin’ this, he should get deferred right here at the bus station, but he had to go. And then when we got to Milwaukee, they made him take his leg off before he got weighed. And then they told him to go sit down. But that was just kind of a humorous, that this is the way it goes, but so, I went through that and went back to work. And yeah in a few months, I got a notice for a draft that I had to go to, in May to a Grand Rapids bus station and I’d get inducted. (7.31) JS: Right, to back up a little bit, when you went for the physical, did you notice anybody trying to scam the system or were you aware of anything like that? RF: Well, there was talk about it you know, guys would eat soap or something to raise, I don’t know if any of that stuff worked. It, I suppose people tried to do things to flunk the physical, I did not. I again had this mentality you go if you’re physically fit, you’re gonna go. So, I didn’t, there wasn’t anything wrong, I guess. JS: But you didn’t really notice anybody doing anything like that? RF: No, no I didn’t. JS: Okay, now was the physical itself reasonably serious, or was it besides from the wooden leg thing, pretty cursory? �RF: It, well I don’t remember it being serious. We were all young, so we were healthy, generally. I think they were looking for things that would indicate that somebody was trying to get out of it, somehow. Whether they played like they were deaf, or because there would be a hearing test, and an eye test, I suppose, and blood pressure. It wasn’t you know, it wasn’t difficult, but I suppose they were looking for certain things and people that kept complaining. You know, they probably, you know they weren’t dumb. They could pick the- pick the guys out. (8.56) JS: Now, Madison’s also a college town. RF: Yeah. JS: At the time you actually went in, I mean did you notice any kind of anti-war stuff going on or were you aware of any of that? RF: I don’t think so, not then yet. I don’t, I think that came probably more in ’67. I wasn’t, I don’t remember. It’s a college town, and it’s a rather liberal town in their thinking, progressive maybe, but I can’t recall any demonstrations. There may have been some, but I just ignored it. JS: Yeah, and you weren’t in school yourself anyways. RF: No, no. JS: So, you had other things to do. Okay, and how much did you know about Vietnam at that point? RF: Nothing. Nothing. Probably couldn’t find it on a map. Other than being in the news, you know, you knew the word, but I didn’t know anything about the politics of it. I can’t recall, I learned most of that later. (9.54) �JS: Right, okay, so we get now, so it’s May of ’67 then you have to go and report now and be sent off for basic training. Where do you go for basic training? RF: I went from, well actually inducted in at Fort Wayne in Detroit, in that center. And that was kind of comical because we were supposed to have another physical. Well that physical was interesting, they said, “have you been to see a doctor since your last physical?” No, I hadn’t, so you passed. It was, that was the physical. JS: Right. And I had this recollection that the Marines would pick out people they wanted on some days and not other days. Well, the day I was going through, they weren’t picking anybody out, so I ended being sworn into the army. Got my service- service number: US 54967085; something you never forget. And they told us to memorize that on the train, no, we took a bus from Detroit to Fort Knox, Kentucky near Louisville. And I remember that was the weekend of the Kentucky Derby because there was all kinds of activity and hype and so on. But so, I went to Fort Knox for basic training. (11:15) JS: Okay, what kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox? RF: Well, you just, you know you get a haircut, and they throw all these clothes at you, and a box to put your civilian clothes in, and ship, they got shipped home. We were just, there were a lot of guys who were in the National Guard. And I don’t know, there’s a story about that too. Do you want to hear that? JS: Yeah. RF: When I was working in Madison, Wisconsin in a, in as an architectural draftsman for Flad and Associates, our spec writer was a major, we called him Sarge but he was a major in the �National Guard, and he could arrange to get us into the National Guard. But again, I opted not to do that, and that was a conscious decision that my wife Judy and I made. But when I- when I got to Fort Know for basic training, there were a lot of the guys in my company who were National Guard people there for basic training, so it was the same for everybody. The drill sergeants, there was, I don’t remember any physical abuse at all. Again, I was in pretty good physical shape, I could do what they asked me to do. They get kind of pushy you know and ask you to do silly things, but hey, that’s part of the thing, part of basic training, I guess. (12.44) JS: Alright, I mean had you kind of expect, I mean where you expected to be shouted at and that kind of thing? RF: Oh yeah. I kind of, I think I, my brother had, my older brother of the two brothers had been in the army during the Korean War, and so he probably clued me in a little bit. Not too much but… JS: Now did the instructors treat the guardsmen any differently from everybody else? RF: Not generally, but one guy did. He was also an attorney, and so he got some preferential treatment. Supposedly he had hemorrhoids and he couldn’t march, and this and that so he kind of got put off to the side. They didn’t treat us differently other than that, maybe. I do remember one other time, when we were just, on a Saturday, we were all put in formation and we had to march over to some building and we gave blood. This was not optional; it was just you did that. One fella was Jewish, and he objected to giving blood on the Sabbath. So, he was excused, but had to go back in on Sunday. And one of those things that happen in life that you know, that you just kinda don’t forget. They accommodated him. (13.58) �JS: Okay, alright so what did the actual basic training consist of? What were they making you do every day? RF: Mostly physical, PT, a lot of PT! That’s what you remember the most. You know, they told you when to get up, they told you when to shave, they told you… You’d have to think a whole lot. Everything was planned for you. We did a lot of running. Just obviously PT, they got us in shape. It, I don’t think basic training was terribly vigorous. Obviously, they told you how tohow to march, how to, where to make turns, and when to about-face, and present arms and order arms, and all that kind of stuff. How to salute properly. About revelry and about military courtesy and general orders on behavior. Classroom works like on first aid. We had these sticks with like a pillow on each end and we had to beat each other with it. Kind of silly, but I guess there was a reason for that too. (15.14) JS: Alright now did they give you; how did they figure out what to do with you coming out of basic training? RF: Oh, that was interesting, during basic training, well I guess when we got there, a day or two, we took written test. And I tried hard on the test to do my best, and I thought cause that’s a good thing to do. You do your best. And maybe one day I’ll go to the Army Corps of Engineers with my background, so I tried hard. And during basic training, they would call different guys out and talk to us about, you qualified to go be a radio repairman, or a medic, or I don’t know, just it’s a whole series of things. A warrant officer were specialized officers in particular field. But of course, they were looking for chopper pilots. I knew that was not a good idea. And I kept saying no, cause I probably even said, “look, I’m here for two years and I’m gonna go home.” So, you got two years, not three. And then one time they called out just two of us and said, “you scored �pretty well on your test and we can arrange to have your Congressman.” Who at that time was Jerry Ford for Grand Rapids or Kent County. “We can have, we can arrange to have your Congressmen an appointment to West Point for you.” “Oh, and how long is that?” “Well, you’ll be there for four years and then a five-year commitment following.” “No, no, like I said before, two years, then I’m done.” And so, I, my opinion what happened, is in my chart, or in my file, it was written down as “noncompliant;” this guy just says no to everything. I mean he does what he’s told but he’s not going to sign up. And so, at the end of basic training, a day or two before the end, we got orders, and my orders were for Fort Polk for 11-Bravo, 11-B. I don’t know what that is. So, I go to the orderly room and say, “what’s this?” Oh, the guy says, “that’s small arms infantry.” Whoa, so, I of course wrote home or called home; this is where I’m going, Fort Polk small arms infantry. Well, my wife’s grandma, who had for years written back and forth to Jerry Ford, just communicating, and so on and so forth. So, she writes Jerry Ford and says she didn’t think her grandson should be in the infantry. And he probably checked, and he, or he knew, and anyway she got a letter back, I wish I had that letter. He wrote back and said, “you’re right, your grandson probably shouldn’t have to be in the infantry, but if a person is drafted, the army can assign them to any job they qualify for. Now, your grandson qualified for a lot of things, but one of them is the infantry.” So, that’s how I got that. I attribute it to the fact that I was so stubborn. I, later I oh, OCS with another thing they offered. And piolet and all this stuff. Well OCS (Officer Candidate School,) I was told, or believed at the time, that you could sign up for OCS, go to that school, and then while you’re waiting for your class to start, you could say, “eh I think I changed my mind.” And then you could probably fall between the cracks, and they would say, “well, Faber, what can you do?” “I’m an architectural draftsman.” “Well, why don’t you go see �this Army Corps of Engineers building?” Well, I didn’t- I didn’t know that at the time, or I didn’t think that at the time, so I said no to OCS along with everything else. (19.10) JS: Well, I have interviewed somebody who tried that particular tactic and eventually wound up in the infantry anyway. Actually, went through most of it before he wound up there. But yeah, they were kind of onto- onto that one. RF: Oh, well, they probably should have been. So, I, that’s-that’s but… I- I think the reason I kept saying no, was that they figured, “this guy, we got a job for him, and we’ll give it to him.” Right or wrong, that’s what happened. JS: Well, the certainly needed foot soldiers. RF: That’s right! There was, that was the biggest need they had. JS: Okay, so now what was Fort Polk like? RF: Oh boy! It was hotter. Because now, I went in in May, so basic is two months. So, June, July, middle of July I take, get on a train for Fort Polk. I think we ended up in New Orleans or something because there was this Dixieland Band there at the train station and then a bus to Fort Polk. And this- this is the middle of July; it’s hot. And they were remodeling the barracks, so we lived in tents, or slept in tents. That was okay, the sides were rolled up, and you’re so tired you sleep. First time I ever saw an armadillo on the bus ride into Fort Polk. Never, didn’t even know what the thing was at first. And of course, they told us about snakes that you had to watch out for. At that time, at Fort Polk, they had a special area called Tiger Ridge, and that’s where we had AIT, or advanced infantry training on this Tiger Ridge and it was intense. It wasn’t undoable, but it was intense. The PT got more intense. The training got more intense. My two worst days, I think, in basic and AIT were pulling KP. To me, this made no sense. Get up at 4 �o’clock and just at the mercy of some mess sergeant who he, this was his- his time to shine you know. He could tell us what to do and, miserable days. I didn’t- I didn’t like the other days, but they weren’t as bad as KP, and for me. (21.33) JS: Alright, now were they consciously gearing your training for Vietnam? RF: Oh yes! Clearly, clearly! They talked about it all the time. And most of the drill sergeants and I think were, yeah, they talked about it, they were vets from Vietnam, they had been there. And so that was all the time, it was clearly we’re training you to go to Vietnam. No question about it. It just oozed from them that this is where you guys are going. Although, during that summer of ’67 occurred the war in Israel. For and so, then there was this big thing; well maybe you guys are gonna go to Israel, you know they got this war, seven days, I think. Seven-day war? JS: Yeah, six, six-day war. (22.23) RF: And of course, so, that died down and back to Vietnam you guys are going. It was- it was physically more strenuous, and I suppose mentally too, they were trying to toughen you up both ways. We had lessons on how to react in an ambush. I don’t think it ever worked that way, but we were told and trained that if you get ambushed, you don’t hit the ground, you turn into the direction of fire and you charge it. Well we didn’t do that in reality, but that was a training, and I suppose there would be an element of surprise if all these GIs did that. But it worked okay when everybody was firing blanks, but in the real world, they weren’t blanks anymore, so things were a little different. You had to know more about where this was coming from than just say, “well I think it’s coming from over there, that’s the way I’m going.” Not, it didn’t work that way. But it was, I- I think they treated us a little bit better, but again, I had this, my attitude was a bit of an �issue. I did what I was asked to do, but one time…we would run from one class or range to another one, again, I understand why, but always we would have to wait before the next class would start, for the stragglers. One day, I don’t know what was in me, but I decided that hey if they’re gonna wait, I’m gonna walk. So, I walked from one to another. Of course, I took a lot, quite a bit of abuse from the drill sergeants because this was not normal for me. But I said, “look, they’re gonna wait for me to get there, I know it, we’re gonna wait.” Probably didn’t help either. JS: Yeah. (24.19) RF: But you know, you, I had gotten to a point where I just felt, this, I’m tired of this. Run back and forth. You know just, come on, give us something that, make it more meaningful! JS: Okay, now were you a little older than most of the guys you were training with? RF: Yeah, I guess so. I- I was 21. But yeah, I was older than those that were enlisted out of high school, or something, so I was a little bit older. And I- I had, I was married, and I had been to college. And I had a career that I wanted to pursue. I had my faith and I just, I didn’t want to be… I- I chaffed at the idea of being treated so, in such a way. JS: Yeah, because part of it is sort of programming people and when you’re younger, you’re easier to program. (25.08) RF: Oh yes, but I will say, the army is very good at training people to do what- what they want them to do. There’s no question about that because they did it to me and they did it to all of us. And for most of us it was effective down the line, for some. And nobody knows how they will react in a fire fight until you’re in one. And sometimes guys just froze, they just, they couldn’t function. And you don’t know that, training doesn’t- doesn’t do that. Yeah, they, it was intense. I �got to say too when I went in the service, when I got drafted, I weighed 150 pounds. When I got out of AIT, I weighed 175, and that was not fat, you know I was just muscle and shape. So, they did that. On the other hand, when I came back from Vietnam, I weighed 150 pounds again. JS: Right, now while you were in basic and then AIT, did you ever get to go off the base? (26.15) RF: I did once in basic training. We were allowed one, three-day pass. And at that time, my brother, Warren, who had been in Korea, and his wife, Verna, brought my wife Judy down and I had this- this weekend pass, and we stayed in Louisville. So, I got off. And AIT, I don’t remember anything like, I don’t remember getting off base, whether it was offered or if I had been offered, I would’ve done it. But I think I was on the base. I never left this ‘Tiger Ridges’ as they called it. JS: Okay, alright so is AIT another eight weeks? RF: Yes. JS: Okay and then what happens at the end of that? RF: I get a 30-day leave. You get orders, and my orders were to report to Fort Lewis, Washington on a specific day in October. And I finished up in September, so from middle of July, middle of August, middle of September, I got a 30-day leave before you go overseas. And so, first time I’d ever been on a plane. I took a plane from Fort Polk to the Dallas Fort Worth airport, what do they call it? Love Airport, maybe? Whatever it is. And from there I took a flight from there to Chicago. Never been on a plane before, so that was a new experience. JS: Okay. RF: Turns out I’d be on a plane a lot. JS: Yeah. �RF: And my wife met me in O’Hare Field. I kid you not! I was walking through the airport, I had to buy a ticket to get to Grand Rapids and my wife and I met right at a corner in O’Hare Airport! It was incredible! She went, she had flown down to meet me. So, that was really, really, really nice! So, I had a 30-day leave and that was good. As you can imagine, we could spend time with family and… (28.17) JS: Yeah, but you know you’re going to Vietnam? RF: Oh yeah, yeah that’s in the back of your mind. But also, I, there’s this faint hope that something will go different at Fort Lewis. You know you always got, I- I had this illusion that something will turn out, something will work out. And but, I should have known better. But it was a nice- nice 30-day leave. This was, everybody got that before they went overseas. And all I had to do was get from Grand Rapids then to Fort Lewis. On you, and you got paid when you left Fort Polk. Travel, mileage, from Fort Polk to Fort Lewis, whatever that mileage was, I don’t remember the rate. But, so, you used that money to buy tickets. JS: Right, okay so now you go out to Fort Lewis. How long do you stay there? (29.12) RF: Just a few days. And I remember this was October, and it was drizzling all the time. Now you really didn’t want to be outside, but of course, you had to go to the mess hall, and I suppose there was some paperwork and things they had to check. And of course, there was constantly, Fort Lewis is right adjacent to McChord Airforce Base, and which was convenient. You know we processed at Fort- at Fort Lewis. And I- I can just think, it was a few days. And then I of course was told or given paper that we’re gonna get on a bus someday at a certain time and haul you over to McCord Airforce Base. �JS: Alright now when you fly to Vietnam, were you on a commercial plane or military? RF: Yeah- yeah this was commercial, chartered. And they packed us in as much as they could. I want to say they were 737s, but I know they had a center aisle that was just this wide and three seats on each side of the aisle, and pack it in. We got food in a box or something to eat, which was okay. It was a long flight. I can remember coming home better as far as time goes, but it’s about 24 hours. JS: Okay. RF: We stopped in Hawaii. And we stopped on Wake Island in Guam to refuel, I guess. You didn’t get off the plane, you just stayed on. Nobody wanted us around, in case we’d run away, I guess. JS: Yeah, alright so where did you land in Vietnam? (30.52) RF: Cam Ranh Bay. JS: Okay. RF: And that I wrote in my journal too. We’re approaching Vietnam, and it’s dark, it’s nighttime. And I think, wait, we’re going to Vietnam. How do you do this in the dark? You know, they’re probably giving me a gun and say, “show up in a year and we’ll take you home.” Literally! I was afraid! And as we come closer and closer, there’s lights on all over. And I’m thinking this is terrible! I wasn’t prepared for that. And of course, we landed. And there’s buses and lights on, and herd you on the next bus and bring you to a barracks. And you can find a bunk and we’ll wake you up in the morning to eat breakfast. I got, I woke up and I went outside; there were guys waterskiing on the bay and I thought, boy this isn’t that bad! This is pretty nice! And little did I know, I, this was only my first stop you know. But was only there a couple of days too in the in- �processing center. They were, they moved you right on through. They had the, the skins were greased man, they knew this operation! JS: Okay now did you have orders to go to a specific unit or did you only get those after you got to Vietnam? RF: Got to Cam Ranh Bay and then you got orders to go, in my case, to the 1st Cav. I don’t know if it included Bravo Company at that time, but it was to the 1st Cav. in An Khê. JS: Okay. Alright, and how did they get you there? RF: By plane. (32.33) JS: Is this now a military transport? RF: Oh yeah, now we’re on a military plane. Like a C131, I think, I’m pretty sure, or 123. But anyway, we flew from Cam Ranh Bay up to Da Nang, as I learned later what Da Nang was all about, which was further north. And we, no processing there but that then we got on probably a Caribou, which was a smaller plane, and from there we went to An Khê from Da Nang. JS: Okay, what part of south Vietnam was An Khê in? RF: I would say the Central Highlands, as I recall. It’s about half-way, approximately. And the army base there was Radcliffe, Camp Radcliffe, but we always called it An Khê. It was a little tiny village just outside of Radcliffe, Camp Radcliffe. We just called it “O-Business” An Khê. (33.32) JS: Right, now the base itself was pretty good size though, right? RF: Oh yeah! That was a good size, I have a hard time judging it. But it was a good, yeah and all wooden barracks. There was a hospital there, or an infirmary. Motor pool, fuel depot, I didn’t see �much of that. Again, when you get to the airstrip, get on another bus or some vehicle and brought us over to, in my case, to the, I guess to the First- First Battalion or Brigade I don’t know. JS: You’ve got, I mean a division breaks down into Brigades, and the Brigades are made up of Battalions, and Battalions have Companies in them. And you were in Bravo Company, so B-Company, that’d be First Battalion normally. RF: Fifth Cav. JS: Yeah, Fifth Cavalry Regiment. RF: Which would have been like a Brigade. You know, Fifth Brigade, 1st Cav. Division. So, I was in Bravo Company, or B. And again, there’s some orientation that you do, they’re treating you much better, you know. JS: Okay, what kind of orientation do you get? (34.41) RF: Well we- we I can remember clearly sitting on some bleachers watching a combat air assault, which the Cav. just did constantly. We did that two or three times a day. Bring in, they would bring in some artillery rounds and then some gunships firing rockets down and then choppers with, Hueys with guys on that you’d jump out and create a perimeter around this landing zone that you were hitting. And we witnessed one of those, just so we knew what that was all about. We got our first chopper ride, and I remember thinking, God there’s no doors on this thing; you sit on the floor with your feet on the skids and your pack and a rifle and all this gear. And by George, I don’t want them to turn so that my side is down because I’ll just slide right out. That doesn’t happen because of centripetal force just, you’re just stuck there. But the first time, there’s a little anxiety, but still, I thought, hey, people do this all the time. I’m, I get no worse off than the rest of them, if I fall out, I won’t be the first one. But so, we had our first �chopper ride. We just kind of buzzed around, and so that was good. I got to tell you something that happened there though! We were sleeping in a barracks, and this guy comes in from the field. He was soon to go home within a few days, so he was out-processing as we were inprocessing, we’re all in the same building. And he comes in the building carrying a helmet that he had had. And that helmet had a gun shot that went in kind of from the back and came out the front. It was a good-sized hole. More, not an M-16 or even an M-60, but maybe an M-50 round. And he had that thing on when that thing, when it got shot. And he said but the only injury he had was a piece of the steel pot that’s imbedded in his neck. But he was given permission to take that helmet home. He showed us, the round went through there, it went through the steel pot and the helmet liner, and he had some letters; we always tucked our letters inside the helmet liner in between the web and the fiberglass to keep them dry, because everything was wet. So, tuck your letters in there that you wanted to write home about. And it even sliced through the upper level of that letter in his helmet. Boy, was that an eye opener! But they had given him permission to take that thing home with him because that was quite the souvenir. But it didn’t get him to go home, it just, he could take, it was his time to go home, he had been there a year. JS: Right- right, okay so… Of course, that didn’t do much for my confidence about. (37:48) JS: Yeah, when you were in the orientation, did they try to teach you anything about Vietnam or the Vietnamese people, and how to deal with them? Or just stay away from the women? RF: Well, yeah, I guess. I think some of that went way back to AIT. Because a lot of transmitted diseases, and you’re still representing your country here, you know- you know how to behave. �But yeah, there was lessons like that probably back at AIT and probably reinforced again there, although I don’t remember the specifics of that. JS: Alright and then once you finish that orientation, now do they send you to your unit? RF: Yes. I don’t remember, we must have been choppered out, but now you’re getting fewer and fewer. Now there’s probably only two of us that were gonna go out to Bravo company, maybe, maybe I was the only one. But at any rate, choppered out. Don’t know where I’m going, of course. Turns out, they were guarding bridges in what they call the Bong Song Valley. And it was a river, and it had bridges on it. And they, the army did that, they- they would… did this several times, they would take you out of the field and give you some light duty, which was kind of nice. You got to sleep in a bunker and get a little more rest and you didn’t walk all day through the jungle, so it was a break. They at that time, Bravo Company was guarding bridges, so I ended up, got dropped off by the end of this bridge, and I don’t know, somebody probably met me, they knew I was coming. And they knew what squad and I was gonna be, what platoon and what squad, I don’t remember if I was in the first, second, or third platoon, but I remember the squad: there were three of us; a squad was just three. And the other two guys were stationed at this bridge, but they were up on a hill, near the bridge, at a bunker, at kind of an outpost, and they were spending their- their day out there, and maybe their night. But anyway, somebody walked with me up there and introduced me to these two guys. I don’t remember their names. One of them was a really, a small guy, wiry and hardened, and the other guy was much, a little bit bigger. And but introduced me, and we probably sat around after a few minutes talking about where you’re from and what’s your name and this and that. And then they said, “but why don’t you just stay down at the bridge while we’re here? You know, meet some of those guys since we don’t really need you up here anyway.” That’s great, okay. So, back down by the bridge, and �there’s this little bunker built above ground right at the end of the bridge. It’s a fairly wide river, and there was also people guarding on the other end of the bridge, maybe that was a different platoon. So, we killed time during the day, you didn’t have much to do. At night… and of course, the chopper would bring out food. So that was all good. Chopper would come out in the morning with breakfast, ammunition if you needed it, you just help yourself. And C-rations to eat at noon. And then hot meal again at night, more ammunition, and mail. At night, I had to take my turn walking halfway across the bridge and back, and a guy from the other side would walk his halfway across the bridge and back. And we were supposed to drop hand grenades over the edge from time to time. Don’t know why, except that maybe we just let the Vietnamese know we were still awake and know we were there. And so, we decided the thing to do is, if you drop, just pull the pin, let the lever fly, you got four seconds in design. If you did that real quick, the hand grenade would fall in the water and the mud and water would fly up all over the place. If you- if you flipped it out too soon, let go of it too late, it would go off before it got to the water, and then just powder the bottom of the bridge, which was just wood with gaps between, with shrapnel. So, we decided the best thing to do is to wait a couple seconds after you let the lever go, and try to, and just a game, see if you could get it to explode just as it hit the water. Kind of a dumb thing to do, but you got to do something. And you do that for an hour, hour and a half, whatever you’re supposed to, and then you wake up the next guy, and then he’d take his turn. We did that, another thing that happened when we were there, is a chaplain came out. Didn’t see the chaplain very often, but once in a while the chaplain would come out to the field. And I remember that time, because it was the first time. And he, I don’t know if he was Protestant or Catholic, doesn’t matter; he was Christian. And because the Catholic fellas would go up and have confession, walk up. And those of us where Protestants, we just sat there. And so that was okay. He, I remember �he couldn’t wait to get back on a chopper and take off. And we were in a- in a fairly secure place. And we didn’t take any gunfire; it was no problem the few days we were there. But then that ended, and then we go back out in the boonies. (43.19) JS: Okay, now during the day were you checking the traffic as it went back and forth. RF: No. JS: Just let the Vietnamese come and go? RF: No. Unless you saw something that was very unusual, if there’s some guy carrying a gun. But there were always what we call ARVNs. They were, they would be on the buses or motorcycles and we never knew what they were doing. Didn’t really pay much attention to them. You didn’t, gotta admit I didn’t trust them a whole lot, and I don’t think any of us did. JS: Yeah that’s the ARVNs, that’s the South Vietnamese Army. RF: Yeah, yeah. JS: Okay, what impression by now do you have of the Vietnamese themselves? You’re watching them on the bridge and that kind of thing for a few days. Did anything register with you yet? RF: The language kind of irritated me. No, it was not their fault, but I didn’t know what they were saying. And there’s always this, “what are you talking about?” You know, of course, they didn’t know what we were talking about either. But yeah that- that has stuck with me for many, many years. I’ve finally gotten over that. God, probably 20, 25 years ago, I was in a McDonalds and there was a Vietnamese family and they were talking Vietnamese and it kind of made the hair stand up on the back of my neck, just the remembrance. So, that struck me. I don’t know if it was when I was at the bridge, but another thing is they, we thought they- they chewed beetle nut, �and it was I think it was a gum or a narcotic, I don’t know what it was, but their teeth would turn black, so they often looked like they didn’t have teeth. That struck me. And of course, their clothes, they often, the women, in these black clothes, the pants and everything black, and these hats. And you kind of get used to that real quick. They would try, I don’t remember, it wasn’t there specifically, but they were always… typically, if you were interacting at all, they were trying to sell you stuff because they wanted money. Can’t blame them. (45.24) JS: Okay, now when you’re on bridge duty, I mean were you getting solicited by people at all or? RF: No, I don’t remember that. JS: Okay, alright so how long did you stay at the bridge? RF: Oh, just a, I think if I had gotten there when the platoon had gotten there…the battalion…the company, it might have been a week. But I was probably there three or four days. JS: Okay alright so what comes next? RF: Okay, out in the field. And that was my first experience of a real combat air assault. And we did that, and then when you hit the ground, then the lieutenant of the company would say, “okay, we have to go so many klicks or kilometers in a certain direction,” and he’d point out somesomething on horizon that we’re heading towards. And these were always what the army called “search and destroy.” And we believe that there was some intelligence that said there was some activity in this area. Maybe you run, you were told you were gonna run across a village, maybe not. So, you did that, and you got to where you were supposed to go, and then the next thing you know, well they’re saying we got to make a little clearing for choppers they’re gonna, hey bring you someplace else and you do the same thing. And that would happen two or three times during �the day. Of course, again, the routine was in the morning, everything kind of works together. How a company operated with three rifle platoons and a mortar platoon. And the mortar platoon, you were always together but at night, the mortar platoon… you’d set up this LZ, a small camp, and the mortar platoon would be in the center, and one rifle platoon would build a perimeter around it, dig a little fox hole wide enough for three of you- you always worked in three. These two guys I met, we, the three of us were always together. And other groups of three. Well and if you were gonna stay with the mortar platoon, which was rotated between the three rifle platoons, one night with them, two nights on ambush, dig this little fox hole that three of you could sit at the edge and get your feet in there and pile the dirt out in front and build a hooch behind it so you got to sleep under the ponchos. And somebody had to be awake at each spot each, all the time, so you rotate, everyone got rotated again: hour and a half awake, wake up the next guy, he was awake for an hour and a half, and the third guy an hour and a half, or an hour, whatever you agreed. And then in the morning, every morning, the two platoons that were on ambush would come back in. And then food choppers would show up with breakfast, ammunition… oh, and I think, I was told it was unique to the Cav., we had this mad minute where all the rifle platoons would fire one clip of ammo through their rifle to clean it out. We never cleaned them, we just squirted mosquito repellant in the chamber and run 18 rounds through it to clean the thing out of the dirt and water. So, we got ammo; if you needed it, you helped yourself. Hot breakfast, God, I don’t eat pancakes to this day! Pancakes, pieces of pancake and some eggs, instant eggs. But you ate because you were hungry. And then they also threw out these boxes of C-rations. A carton, several cartons, enough for everyone to have C-rations. You opened up the top, flipped it upside down on the ground, the whole carton, because the names of the meals were printed on the top. And you pull the carton off and so now you got probably a dozen boxes on the ground, but you �don’t know which one. So, everybody’d pick up a box and whatever that box was, that was your lunch. Except, that nobody liked ham, well, most people didn’t like ham and lima beans. And one that I think nobody ate was ham and eggs chopped. But there was spaghetti and there was pork stake and scalloped potatoes, that was pretty good, spaghetti was good. But I can remember the two bad ones. We had a Sargent Bacon, was the first sergeant in our company, a big black man. He loved ham and lima beans, so whoever got ham and lima beans go find Sargent Bacon and trade whatever he had for your ham and lima beans, so you could at least get rid of that. If you had ham and eggs chopped, just leave it! Take the little cup of applesauce or peaches with you, little can of fruit, take the sundry pack; which had like hot chocolate mix in it, and toilet paper, salt and pepper and sugar, yeah maybe some toothpaste, a can opener. So that was every morning, and then away you go again, more combat air assaults. So, you know just day after day. This was just, oh man it- it… I didn’t say it was meaningless, it was boring in many, most of the time, except when you made contact and then just in an instant, everything changed. You had a rush of adrenaline and everything’s changed. But most of the time, it could be days, nothing happens. Except you just… (51.30) JS: Okay, now what was ambush duty like? RF: Ambush? That was always interesting. Again, when the company ended for the day, wherever that might be, you set up this camp for the night. Mortar platoon, one platoon, rifle platoon around it. So, two nights you had to go on ambush and well, you’d eat supper, get mail, ammunition, supper, mail. And that was always nice, and then go out on ambush. And whoever was pulling point, it was, you didn’t know where you were going to go, but the point man, and I was one, the three of us pulled point for our platoon. So again, we rotate everything. You know �you’d pull point for a day and then you’d have two days where you didn’t, you’d be the second and third guy. So, the point guy that day, would go out, and if you found a little stream, maybe you’d seen it earlier in the day, or some other feature, and you think, well, there could be a spot for an ambush. But you tried to get there just at dusk. And if it wasn’t quite dark enough, you’d just walk past it, make a big loop, come back at dusk. And then everybody laid down, the three of you, again. And about five yards over, or the army said meters, five meters over, another group of three, and three, and three. Well, the first, the end groups of three, you had a Claymore mine and you walked the Claymore mine out, I think it was like 150 feet or something, I don’t know what that wire was. You’d put the firing cap in the Claymore mine. The Claymore mine was probably about that long, that high, that thick, plasticine case. You’d slip the firing pin in it and walk the wire back to the trigger at your position. That’s what the two end groups did, so that if you heard something coming through you could fire this claymore mine. But you didn’t fire the claymore mine until right away. You wanted whoever was coming to get in your line of fire, but if more was happening, you could always fire this claymore mine. So, you did that. Now, you did not build a hooch. You were just laying down in the grass, the wet, if it was raining you were in the rain and whatever, it was dark by now. And again, three of you. Somebody had to be awake and you just reach over and wake up the next guy. And no fox hole, everything was quiet, and you spent the night then. (54.23) JS: What kind of terrain were you in? Were you in the highlands or lowlands closer to the coast? RF: Yeah, we were at that point we were in the highlands. Which is quite a, I don’t know if ‘jungle’ is the right word. We went through thick stuff, even if we were on a trail that the �Vietnamese had built or cut. They were this short, and we were all you know, other than this one guy, I can’t remember their names…but the three of us…this one guy was a little bit shorter but I’m six foot tall. I had to stoop over to get through here. There were times when you actually, if you were pulling point, you carried your weapon on semi-automatic. Everybody else behind you was supposed to be on safe and you could flip it to automatic. We never fired these M-16s on fully automatic. First of all, the recoil just, you couldn’t control where you’re shooting enough. So, the point man is on semi-automatic, and everybody else is supposed to be on safe. Just for, because you’re going through thick brush sometimes and the trigger could get jerked, action. But so, what was I gonna say? It was something, oh, the point man, if you were walking after combat air assault and you got the instructions on where you were going, it was the point man’s, nobody gave him/ told him how to get there, you picked your own way, and everybody followed, nobody complained, you know if he picked a bad route and had to chop through some jungle with a machete, so be it, he did it. He has to make the way for us. There were rice patties around, and we’d often end up walking through rice patties. I felt sorry for the Vietnamese, they would be screaming at us. Of course, we didn’t know what they were saying, but you knew they weren’t happy. And I don’t know if it bothered us a lot. I felt bad for them, but hey, I had a job to do. I got to get through here. Didn’t, that wasn’t nice, and no wonder they hated us. You know, here’s a guy trying to raise rice for his family, he doesn’t want a car in his driveway. He doesn’t want a television in his hooch, he wanted rice! The rice patties were dirty water. They would, they had terraced them a little bit so the water would run through a gutter in the dyke into the next one until the water gradually found its way. (56:59) JS: Would you walk on the dykes or would you slog through? �RF: Sometimes we walked right through the water. Sometimes on the dyke, but that was probably not the safest. The safest place was in the rice patty, there weren’t, we didn’t worry about land mines in the rice patty. We worried about little trip wires on the dykes, so. You’d probably take the- the patty over a tripwire. JS: Okay. RF: The, but when you got… the next time you got a break, you didn’t take a break in a rice patty, but you got on some dry, higher ground, and you’re gonna okay, we’re gonna take a break. Whether it was for lunch or whatever the reason, you take your boots off because almost always you would have leeches on your legs, your ankles, and up your calf a little ways. Couldn’t pull them off. They were, oh, probably 3/8 inches wide as I recall, and maybe an inch or inch and a half long. Gray, dark gray and they would be attached. And there’s two ways to get them off: either use a cigarette lighter and heat them up and they would drop off or you take mosquito repellant and squirt them, and they would drop off. But you always did that, and your feet were always wet. No socks, just boots. Wet and dirty! (58.17) JS: Now when you were going over land, would you use trails when they were available, or did you stay off of them? RF: That was up to the point man, his judgment on what this looked like. The problem with walking on the trail is that’s the best place to get in an ambush. Because they knew Americans tended to be a little lazy and they wanted to find the easiest way to get to wherever they wanted to get. And, but again, it was the point man. I don’t remember taking us, leading us on a trail. Maybe for a short distance, but you’re always on high alert. Actually, the best place to be in this whole company, which as I recall, we were about 80 strong, I think we were understaffed, but 80 �was about what we ever had. And you’re all walking with about five yards between you. Safest place to be, except for trip wires, was at the front end or the back end, because if you’re going to get in an ambush, they’re going to take the middle group, so in some sense, pulling point was not a bad thing, except you had to be extra alert. (59:37) JS: Now how long were you in that highlands area? RF: For the, my entire time in the field I was in the highlands area. A couple of experiences that I had then; one time it was my turn to pull point and a couple I don't really remember I might be combining two times because just for the sake of time now. I, it was my turn to pull point that day and I had a bad feeling about it, but you can't- can't say well I don't want to do this, you're here Faber, do your job. So, you don't complain but I was nervous about it. It didn't feel good and we were on a- on a little trail or it was wide enough to have a vehicle on, but we were we're kind of, I was getting instructions from the lieutenant on where we had to go, how far. And I prayed that this was gonna be okay today and we it was a grassy area and what we called the elephant grass it was tall grass but probably on me, up at my chest. Elephant grass we called it, for… it was tall and I'm heading through here so I wasn't too worried about an ambush because there was no place for anybody else to hide and it was quite a ways away from this little road or trail that we had left and I could see that there was a bald spot in the grass. So, I thought wow that could be a hole in the ground or something, I don't know what's kind of curious. So, I kind of angle over there and I got closer and I thought kinda looks like a truck tire, what in the world is a truck tire doing out here in this field. Take a few more steps and it was a python just rolled up digesting his meal I guess and so I said to the guy behind me, “had a big snake here.” So, I not going to kick the snake so I walked and kept going but I would turnaround periodically and some �of guys would walk up and take a picture and some guys would be walking way over here you know. It was kind of humorous. Everything went good, but when I prayed I did have this calmness, say Rog, it's okay whatever, you're fine, you're okay. So, that was good now I don't know if those two were the same day, you know this is 50 years ago literally and, but it was it was boring most of the time- most of the time. I felt sorry for the Vietnamese. These we'd come across these little villages and they're just scared to death of us, you could tell that they would cower and- and I think that they- they tried not be friendly but to… didn't want to do anything to upset us. So, they didn't hardly dare move and I'm sure that when the VC or NVA would come along they would behave similarly, they would be friend of course they could speak the language, we knew nothing. We didn’t have an interpreter in the field with us. We didn't have any I think S3 is intelligence that was all back at on An Khê. If we took a prisoner, we get him on a chopper or a casualty, a Vietnamese casualty, get him on a chopper, and they’d fly back to An Khê and take care of whatever happened back there. We would do first aid on them if they had been wounded but we didn't. (1:03.19) JS: Okay just, so you arrive basically what in October of ‘67 or November? Okay and… RF: October I got there. JS: Yeah alright and then how long do you spend actually with… RF: In the field like that? Well what we call it, well again I want to touch on a few other and incidents when we would get a break from this field business and we one time we went back to An Khê and we were on QRF a Quick Reaction Force. And then we- we were allowed to have a couple of guys maybe go to the PX, but most of us had to be there at that barracks that if something happened, we could jump on choppers and respond. So, we got a call we- we had to �get on these Deuce and a half trucks because there was a traffic problem between An Khê and Pleiku, a traffic issue. We got out there and that issue was a python was on the road and just on the shoulder and these little guys on these motor scooters didn't want to go around and the buses were jammed up and so what you gonna do, what are we gonna do? So, we shot it. I mean we shot it and shot it, we- we don’t mess with a snake. Well then, they- they get a call, the radio man gets a call that the- the captain, the adjutant wanted, this snake. Oh, you got to be kidding we got to get this snake up on the Deuce and a half, what a job, but we did it. I was in back- back at An Khê at some point and this, talk to this adjutantnt he was- he was from Wyoming, City of Wyoming so we had a little bit in common I could lieutenant or Captain Holbeeke was his name and I said, “what about that snake? Whatever happened to that snake?” He said, “I'll show you.” He rolled it out it was 22 feet long at the widest part it had to be 18 inches wide all dried and this was his souvenir, his souvenir he didn’t have anything to do with it, except he had it skinned. JS: Yeah. RF: But you know funny thing, or funny and also if you went to the PX when we were in QRF, picked up a few things I don’t know what we bought it doesn't matter. Get to the checkout line and of course these people that were stationed at the, at An Khê, they'd get out of line because we smelled bad, we looked bad, we acted bad, we had a rifle, and ammunition on us they got out of line and let us go, pretty cool. (1:06.01) JS: Well I had been asking about time, actually just for frame, we're not necessarily done with the field time yet. RF: Okay. �JS: But you're getting there because at the end of January the Tet Offensive starts and both before and after that the division does move, but so basically though to get a back, so basically how long were you working out of on An Khê before you went anywhere else? RF: Okay that well first I got called out of the field in December. JS: Okay. RF: And that- that happened well I got to go back, I mentioned Sergeant Bacon, first sergeant good guy. After you, a new guy had been in the company for a week or ten days at lunchtime he'd come and sit by you and just say, “hey let's talk.” And so, he wanted to know you know where you're from, you know would did you do before you got, were you drafted? Did you in enlist? Just wanted to get to know a nice- nice thing to do. Makes you feel a little more part of the unit and so I don't know I told him what my past a little bit and didn’t think much of it. Well we were again we got called out of the field and we were now guarding bridges between An Khê and Pleiku again this you know maybe a week, less than a week but a few days of rest and so we were guarding this little bridge and one, and the truck was from An Khê would come out in the morning and drop off food and ammunition, go to the next bridge, the next bridge, and finally come back pick up the chow containers and one morning they said, “Faber get your gear together you got to go back to An Khê,” and I'm thinking maybe one of my parents died or something I got to go maybe I gotta go home something bad happened. So, the truck left I ate, got all my stuff together, truck came back it stopped, I threw my stuff on the truck, get on a truck with these guys, we get back to An Khê and they said, “you got to report to the orderly room.” Okay so I went in there and the First Sergeant- Sergeant Lewis said to me, “you got a journalism degree?” “No, I don't.” I think, oh shucks man I'm back out in the field, when’s that truck leaving? He says, “can you type?” I said, “oh yeah I can type,” and well I had typing in high school we didn't �have computers, but I could type. All ten fingers, and not real fast but I could type, and my nature is to do it right, do it slow enough but do it right. So, he said, “okay, you can be S1 clerk.” So that's how that happened I ended up taking the guy's place and he was gonna go back home and so that- that's how that happened and then I thought you know that all stems from that conversation with Sergeant Bacon. You know he put in a word that when they had a job like that, I got this guy Faber, I want you to talk to him. I really think so, unfortunately, he was a casualty and never got to talk to him again, never got to thank him. I don't remember if he was killed or if he was wounded but I never saw him. JS: Okay… RF: And that happened about a week before Christmas of ‘67. JS: Okay now back at the time in- in the field you talked about you know being at an ambush duty and this kind of thing and in these camps at night, did you ever have contact, did enemy attack you or did you spring an ambush? (1:09.32) RF: Not an ambush, not an ambush in the dark, that but that brings up another memory when we loaded our- our magazines, or clips as we called them with- with more rounds we put in two regular rounds and a tracer, two regular and a tracer, and a tracer of course you could see this orange glow. You could see that in a daytime but at night you can really- really showed up. Didn't have an ambush activity that was really pretty rare because the Vietnamese wanted to keep their head down too. So, that was, we would get ambushed during the day, but they knew where they were and they know where to run, we- we never did so we didn't set up an ambush during the day. If we made contact, it was because we walked into something or we- we were walking towards a village and we got some- some gunfire from a village. But not at night. �JS: Okay so, when you had contact and you're out on patrol and so forth would it be just a couple of shots quick or more organized thing? (1:10.35) RF: It was more than just a sniper. There was, we and that varied but once in a while it’d just be a sniper, but it was more organized than that. They had a little plan it was almost like a mini, if it was by a village they had a- they had a purpose and there again I don't know why we did this, but we would often burn a lot of things in that village and I thought no wonder these people hate us. Why are we doing, this is not a way to make friends you burn their hooch down for what? Just because you think there's some ammo in there. Won’t talk too much about that, I'll talk about one time I wasn't pulling point I was third guy that day, so I probably pulled point the day before but we're rolling up an incline and all of a sudden, the point man started shooting rounds off. Well the two of us behind us, one went a little to the left, I went a little bit to the right, and we kept going up carefully. There was a bunker and he saw a; he’s telling us what happened he saw a rifle sticking out of the bunker and it was in the ground bunker with a cover on it. And then the guy he could even see the guy behind the rifle, so he shot. There again for some, we were told that our orders were not to fire unless we were fired at. Well who come up with this idea, you know you can't do that. Why, nobody, I mean come on you sent me over here but don't tell me when I can shoot. So, anyway he- he shot the guy and he probably slid down into the bunker a little bit but then another guy came out and ran around and I saw this, he started running around and all three of us shot didn't see a weapon, didn't care. We knew we were in bad shape here, and that guy got hit in the knee or in the leg but put him down and that was I think the point man threw a concussion grenade down in the bunker and that'll take, get anybody else out of there and by that time the rest of the company is coming and platoons coming up. Building a big perimeter �and the- the medic is there and the lieutenant and the first sergeant wanting to know what happened. You know you got a reporter or at least a verbal reporter maybe he filled out a paper, an incident report. So, the guy that was pulling point was with, telling him and I'm sitting there too, and the medic is working on this, wrapping this guy’s knee up. Machine gunner off to the side, his machine gun, he was gonna shoot, that's right, he was gonna shoot some rounds down in this bunker and his machine gun, m60 jammed. So, he goes out on the perimeter and he monkeys with it gets it unjammed and all of a sudden this burst of m60 rounds. Yeah we all were startled by that but this poor Vietnamese died and he had this wound in his leg, he didn't die of the wound I think he died of fear but he got, he can understand here's all these big Americans talking a foreign language you got some guy messing with your leg, you don't know what he's doing to it. Anyway, not good- not good. (1:14.17) JS: Okay and how common was it to actually have a firefight during that period when you were in the field? How often would those happen? RF: Well sometimes you might go a week without and other times it would be once or twice a week. They- they sent us you know they must have had information, but we made contact when the Vietnamese wanted us to. JS: Right. RF: You know they when they thought they could cause more trouble than we could they wouldthey would- they would cause the contact because they knew how to get away, we didn't- we didn’t. JS: Yeah, I mean was there, were you aware of any effort to do things like count bodies or count enemy casualties after these events? �RF: Well we recorded we saw and that- that was, and the word was you count killed and wounded. But for every KIA we, the army assumed two WIA’s. In the documentary and in the books, I read about it later I don't watch movies about Vietnam, never. Well I watched Forrest Gump but that was humorous too but otherwise I don't- I don’t watch any of these Good Morning America or anything. But later I found out these numbers were padded, just terribly and the documentary it was incredible, was gross, some said, somebody along the chain of command says, “this isn't believable, we don't care, we don't care, somebody will believe it.” Well yeah, we did we, I’m sure that the lieutenant the company commander actually it was always the lieutenant I think company commander was supposed to be a captain. (1:16.02) JS: Normally sometimes the first lieutenant would do that, you have a lieutenant being a platoon leader yeah. RF: Yeah, yeah but we didn’t have any captains out there we just didn’t, they didn’t have enough evidently. JS: Right. RF: So, maybe a first lieutenant but whoever company commander was filled out some report whether it was probably by radio. I mean what we didn’t have paper out there in the wood you know, I don’t know. JS: Yeah. RF: But probably by radio said, “we made contact this is what we see,” and somebody in the back- back at An Khê was making up the numbers. JS: Are there are other things you want to put in the story about time in the field before we kind of switch over to your…? �(1:16.40) RF: Yeah, I was just thinking about that and my birthday is November 5 and I got moved to Vietnam in October so shortly in the field my birthday comes along. My wife is always diligent about sending letters and I to her and I got a lot of mail, more than most. On November 5, on my birthday, on, she would send a package about every two weeks; I get a package on my birthday with birthday cake in it. A little bit miss shaped because it gets banged around, but we got to go on ambush and she sent this cake and a can of frosting just to put on it but we gotta go on ambush, oh gather around guys cause we’ve got to eat this cake in a hurry so we smeared this frosting on this cake with the bayonet and she had sent some forks and whacked this thing up and gobbled it down. It came on my birthday. JS: Wow. RF: Yeah really something and we went on an ambush. JS: Alright and kind of get in December now you’re coming back and now you’ve got a job basically- basically a headquarters clerk? RF: Yeah in the orderly room and the orderly room Sergeant Lewis was the first sergeant. They had a clerk for each company and then the adjutant, which was Captain Holbeeke and then myself, S1 clerk I was not, I was now in headquarters company and I was S1 clerk for the battalion. (1:18.22) JS: Now what does S1 clerk mean? RF: Okay S1, I didn’t know when I got the job. I didn’t dare ask the first sergeant I just, he said, “go see so-and-so.” So, I did, and I said, “hey I guess I’m your replacement.” He says, “oh,” he says, “I’m leaving in a week.” I said “okay, what is S1?” He says, “personnel records.” So, “oh �what’s that, I mean what’s that all about?” He says, “well I put in orders for promotion for different awards. I order forms that I use, I gotta order some of them here locally at An Khê the Division Headquarters and some of them I have to send back to Washington depending on it’s a DD Form or Department of Army form I don’t remember which I had to send where. But, oh and another thing he had to do, or I had to do is sympathy letters for, to next of kin for anybody killed in the battalion. The sympathy letter, yeah you had to, there was some things that you always had to say. It had to be typed and without errors, boy that’s hard. And a manual typewriter but at least I’m in a building now, but it was hard typing these things perfectly. I mean you know, my wife here to type would be lots better but I’m doing my best. And if you make a mistake you just start over, no copy machine, carbon paper, and you- you try to write like massive shrapnel wounds or gunshot wound. And quite often I would get a letter back, I didn’t sign it, but the adjutant signed it on the behalf of the battalion. We’d get a letter back saying that the people would like to know where, more detail about the wounds, and the accident because usually people were not allowed to have open casket. You know we didn’t have refrigeration. (1:20.41) JS: Yeah. RF: Obviously and I- I had written something like massive shrapnel wounds. What are you gonna say if a guy got hit by a rocket, you know we got pieces? It was hard, I know that, I can understand as a grandparent now that yeah you want to, and I didn’t always know where. I mean they wanted to know at what intersection, or at what stream, or what bridge. I didn’t know andand I didn’t make stuff up, but it was hard to respond. I always, that was almost as… harder than writing the initial letter because you tried to respond and still you weren’t able to be. Then there’s just some things you can’t, I couldn’t write. But that was a big part of the job. Also when �we took casualties my job was to go down to the, well this, after we left An Khê when we got up to Utah Beach and specifically at LZ Jane I still had the same job but now it’s not a building anymore it’s a tent and but part of my job was when at LZ Jane when they took casualties in the battalion I had to go to the first-aid station and take notes of the diagnosis and prognosis that the doctor saw. And jot some things down that could be a little bit helpful if the man died later. And that was just part of the job too, and then not no- no, not nice, not nice. JS: Okay alright now on the base itself at An Khê, I mean how long did you stay there before you moved? (1:22.28) RF: Okay I don’t know it says is my journal, I don’t think I know exactly when we move. We move from one place on the, on An Khê to another building and cramped us down but we still had a desk in the building and we slept in the back part of that building in Quonset huts.. At some point I- I, there, I might have a record of when they, we moved, our battalion moved from An Khê to Utah Beach just some beach on the gulf of Tonkin. North- north of De Nang, well not as far north this Huế but in that direction. And that was kind of nice I, first experience with, do you want to hear about this now? At Utah Beach I’m still doing the same job only now our bunkers are above ground cause it’s all sand, so they built sandbag bunkers with the cover. Pretty nice and I thought, you know I surely don’t get to shower and bathe enough and went and I’ll get in this water I grabbed a bar of soap, I’m gonna go take a bath. I found out that you soap doesn’t work in saltwater it just turns like a piece of rubber. That didn’t work so now I get out of the water and I covered with salt, this is almost worse than dirt but I learned you know, I was, I’m from West Michigan, big lake that’s nice, I could take a bath in Lake Michigan and it’d work out great but not there, not in the saltwater but I learned. We weren’t there very long, but Sergeant �Lewis could, he knew what was gonna happen and somehow, he found a way to get re, get orders to rotate out of Vietnam, go back to Germany where his wife lived. He was still in the army, but he was married to this German gal. He was E-7 so I mean we never saw him again. He and the next thing we knew we’re going to LZ Jane which is about straight west of what was Utah Beach. Things didn’t get better. (1:24.41) JS: Okay now is this all before the Tet Offensive began? RF: No- no Tet was way back at An Khê. JS: Okay you were still An Khê when Tet starts? RF: I was at An Khê at Tet Offensive. JS: Okay so talk about that, when that happens does anything affect your unit directly or? RF: It did a little bit. In our typical army, An Khê had a, it was a big base and it had the ring road and along the ring road where these guard towers and they barbed wire and lights and all this. But they had, I had to go up, all of us did, take turns going up not all the way to the perimeter but somewhat back from the perimeter in some makeshift shelter and we were supposed to be on alert that if somebody, something breached that perimeter we would be ready that- that affected it yeah. But not, we had some mortaring during the at night either early in the, early let’s say six/ seven o’clock in the morning or at nine/ ten o’clock at night, but again it was a big base and they, I think they were really going after the fuel depot and that was not near where I was. So, it didn’t- didn’t, wasn’t a problem. (1:26.04) JS: Okay so the start of the Tet Offensive doesn’t affect you particularly, it happens. RF: Yeah. �JS: Were you getting news or were you aware of stuff going on or were you just? RF: Oh yeah, we- we knew how serious it was because we had units that were up near Hué and they were taking casualties, so we knew what was going on. And we- we heard, see we were quite a ways North, Saigon we didn’t know what was going on in Saigon, that was the least of our worries. We didn’t really care, well we got our own problems, not gonna care about Westmoreland man I, worry about him, he’ll take care of himself. We’ll take care of our self, leave us alone, we’ll be okay. So, we were quite far north and but An Khê, we did not have a major attack at Camp Radcliffe yeah more during peapod. Peapod [?], oh that’s terrible, yeah that’s not so bad. JS: Okay alright and the division was in the process of moving north in part to provide more support for Khe Sanh and other things that were also going on during that period. RF: Yes, further north. JS: But- but the division is in the process of moving when the Tet Offensive begins at the end of January and then after that your battalion then makes that move up. RF: To, yeah to Utah Beach. JS: To Utah Beach and now then you go to LZ Jane. RF: Yeah. JS: And is that where you spent now an extended period of time? (1:27.30) RF: Yes- yes, I think maybe in my journal is I’ve- I’ve tried to nail down dates and I can’t recall them now, but I spent a long time at LZ Jane. It was a not real big, it was our brigade JS: Okay. �RF: And so, our battalion headquarters were there but the other battalions were also on this LZ. There was a large artillery brigade or whatever they call them, there’s a large gun right by us an 8-inch diameter job. They kept water in there, sloshed around to get this thing anchored in the mud and jump off the ground, kinda noisy. When he fired at night the whole roof of our bunker would go whoop like that just from the concussion and we all, and sometimes you hear a short round, bzzzz, oh boy, hope it makes it. My job was pretty much the same, getting more difficult because now I had this little field desk that collapses in a tent. Holes all through this tent just full of mortars or shrapnel holes and had this old Gestetner that I had to crank out paperwork on. Poor old typewriter with chips in it from shrapnel and the Gestetner. JS: What’s a Gestetner? RF: What, oh my, a Gestetner is this thing that, don't you remember, you don't remember these things… JS: Well… RF: Cranked and they had black ink on a drum, and you had a stencil that you had to cut and you laid that stencil on the drum and there was ink in this thing and you- and you could automatic. (1:29.17) JS: Generate multiple copies is sort of the… RF: Yes, that's what we did orders on and so that- that was my job. I had a Gestetner and if a company clerk needed something done I did it on the stencil. I was the only one that was cutting stencils on my typewriter and, but the old Gestetner I don't know what happened but it wouldn't feed ink and so I had to take a tube of ink put it on some toilet paper and rub it on the drum, and then lay the stencil on it and kind of press that in so that the ink could start coming up through the- the cuts on the stencil and crank it out and hope you had enough ink to get enough copies �that you needed I, this- this is making a lot of work you know. No, but you had a good time, you know I showed you the picture of the guy cutting hair there and we one we had a steak fry. Somebody I don't know who, but we all chipped in and he went to a Utah Beach area again on the Jeep and bought from the wet so we bought it, we bought it with MPC, military payment certificate because that's what the army used to try to keep US money out of, and they'd switch the series of MPC periodically and then all the old series was worthless and poor Vietnamese got stuck with, they really wanted regular currency, US currency but we, I didn't have any because you just got paid in MPC and that's what you had. But it was curious we bought it from the Vietnamese girls called them Coke girls. Yeah at LZ Jane life was just it was I could sleep in that bunker, you know and then I'll tell you about that storm for the record here, you saw the pictures but living in a bunker that was two, room for two cots and maybe about three feet additional in length so it's probably ten feet long and a cot. And I had a piece of plywood on the floor, and then the other cot, I lived there mostly by myself. And one night I woke up, and of course this bunker is built on kind of a hill, and I can hear water running and what in the world what a rain. Well the waters almost to the bottom of the cot, and so I got to get out of here. Well what was happening is water running down inside of this hill got between couple sandbags, just like a faucet running, just pouring in the bunker. So, I gotta get out of this bunker. Pick my rifle laying on the floor and ammo bag, pick those things up, slip my boots on they’re in the water, climb out of the bunker but by this time I'm deciding I’m gonna go to the chapel tent because they had a wooden floor in there and at least I can get out of this mud and dark, but I know where that tent is. Get in there and of course I can hear guys talking, the cooks are in there making coffee in these big kettles, they just put water and coffee grounds right in there and let it boil and that's but it's pretty good. Especially when you're cold and wet so I spent the night there I don't know we're �just talking. And next day is just everything is mud and I got to try and get this typewriter going again and the Gestetner and I get my desk in mud, and life is getting bad. And I- I don't well I gotta get a few things out of that bunker yet too, I had some shirts that I had sent to- to the little village outside of LZ Jane to get laundered and they had been all nicely folded they're laying on the floor down there so I go down to get it and the water is up to my groin in right as you get down in the hole. Whew, so, I can't live in there I build a hooch on top of the bunker two poncho or three ponchos I got, I don't know where I found these tents poles but I, hey everybody man for himself so I- I didn’t tear anybody else's hooch down but I found some tent poles and somesome ponchos so build a hooch. Even with one end, I had a litter, I don't know where I found the litter with an air mattress, I put that in there and that's where I slept. But by this time I'm only about six weeks from going home so I thought, I can’t, that I'll never get back in that bunker and by this time they're starting to- to prepare another base camp called Camp Evans as I recall and I never got there but so that's the timeframe. So, it must have been September, late September we had this storm and I make a place to live on top, at least sleep. And I can remember guys saying, “Faber if I was as short as you are, I would not sleep on that bunker.” I said, “if you were here as long as I've been here and if we get mortared, I guarantee you I hear that mortar leave the tube. I can be in the bunker before the mortar hits the ground, I guarantee it.” Because you're so in tune I knew when we were getting mortared before the mortars hit because you get the whooshwhoosh and so I knew what that was and I, I'm sure that it didn't happen. Then I got a replacement I think his last name was Lee, nice guy I don't know where he, he was like I was someday hauled him out of the field to take my job and when I was gonna go back. And another interesting thing I took a leave and went to Okinawa for a week I had, oh I had been to R&R, I had gone to Hawaii and met my wife for a week and that was in June. Where was I before I went �there, was I LZ Jane? Yeah I was at LZ Jane then already in June because I had a hopscotch all the way back to Cam Ranh Bay to go to Hawaii and back from Hawaii, go back to Cam Ranh Bay and hopscotch just, you just stand in, go to an airstrip and say where am I gonna go and I give me a plane or let me know when a planes going I'll get on, and that's how you traveled. Finally, a chopper, I got to be back to LZ Jane from Da Nang or something. Okay, this chopper’s going to there. Anyway, so last couple of weeks get really short and I decide some reason I can't believe I did this, I'll go to Okinawa for a week and that company clerk, of course we had been, I don't remember names of these guys but he says, “oh I won't even take you off the morning report, so as far as, you're not gonna, it's not gonna record this as leave, I just leave you on the morning report but you come back.” “Don't worry,” I said I'm so short I got to get back here to get go home and what otherwise I can't go home without orders, so he knew that. So, I hopscotch down to An Khê totally illegal get to the airstrip at An Khê there's three or four guys that are, we're all gonna go, now there’s three or four of us from other areas they're gonna go to An Khê. I don't know if they were going legally or not but we- we get from An Khê down to Cam Ranh Bay and we fly on a C-131, what they called weight available because they were flying jet engines and other equipment on that needed to be repaired to Okinawa. So, we get to Okinawa and I spend a week that was, eh that was okay, it wasn't Vietnam, so it was good. Don't remember much of it. (1:38.28) JS: Didn’t you need orders to be able to get on these flights or did you just walk up and. RF: I didn’t, I just said I got to go- to go to Okinawa, I didn't have orders that was the idea, you know I just was going, and I guess I looked like I was, know what I was doing. And I was what I'm- I'm looking like I was in the infantry I'm up from LZ Jane I'm doing… this guy's, you don't �want to mess with him too much because he says he's going to Okinawa you let him go. So, I went to Okinawa been, stayed there for about a week and so okay, time to go back to Vietnam. Go back to the airport to the airstrip there I don't remember, the air force base, I guess. Okay I gotta go to Vietnam I didn’t have any orders, well you got to wait till you’s got room on a plane, weight wise. It took a day or so I'm starting, now I’m starting to get nervous because I got to get back to Vietnam, get orders to leave, but I did, I finally, and oh I’d ride on these C-131s, there's no sound insulation it's just sheet metal and boy the noise be get off you for hours you can hardly hear anything. Get back to Vietnam, here I am at Cam Ranh Bay again I got to hopscotch again no orders just tell him I got to get here. Get back, finally get back to LZ Jane just a couple days before I get my orders to come home. (1:40.00) JS: Okay now during the time when you're- you’re up there, up- up north I mean your division is involved in a lot of different action, they're part of supporting the recapture of Huế and this kind of thing and then eventually the division or a large chunk of it goes out to Khe Sanh and- and then eventually into the A Shau Valley after that. Now do you stay on Jane the whole time? RF: I was. JS: And so, the battalion still has its rear area there and then they're going out but you're staying on the base? RF: The yeah, the brigade was operated a little like An Khê did originally and they had- they had these rifle companies that Alpha Company, Bravo, Charlie, Delta they're all out there, but we use choppers. You can't believe the chopper traffic and that's how people came and went, the chaplain go out on a chopper, it's just constantly choppers. But I was, that was the last place I �really was at LZ Jane and the brigade, the brigade was there I don't know about other brigades I think they must have been in other places but the 5th brigade or 5th Cav… JS: Yeah. RF: …was that level. The 5th Cav was there at LZ Jane and then the battalions, along with the battalions, and the- and the artillery unit. We were, must have been fairly close to the DMZ because as I recall these artillery guys said, “yeah, they could fire into North Vietnam with that evenings gun.” JS: Yeah, yeah there were, those were up actually so you're- you’re actually at that point you're north of way Huế. RF: Oh yeah. (1:41.49) JS: And between Huế and Quang Tri basically. RF: Yeah and Khe Sanh was a little bit more. JS: That’s inland. RF: Inland. Further west. JS: Yeah north and west yeah, but you weren't going out to those points? RF: No, no because my job was S1 you know I- I had my, I shouldn't say my hands full but that was a full-time job. Take between casualty letters and orders to go on R… that was my job assign guys to go on R&R and where there were gonna go and so in a way they'd like to treat me kind of nice. And but we had to teach the new guys, we had a lieutenant that showed up one day just green and he walked in there at ten. I'm sitting right near where the entrance is, and the other clerks are in there. I don't remember where Lieutenant Curl spent his time, the adjutant. This officer walks in green as grass. I'm right by the door and he says, “soldier I'm an officer, why �don't you call these guys to attention?” I says, “we don't do that here, we don't do it, and we don't salute anything lower than a major. This is just the way it is; this is Vietnam.” Our attitude’s what you're gonna do? Send me to Vietnam? You know this- this is different this is not the real world. This is- this is a different world, and they'd learned, these officers learned that you don'tdon't mess around with these enlisted guys because they're kind of ornery, they don't want to be here and just leave them alone. JS: Okay, now did you have a commanding officer that you reported to most of the time while you were at the S1? (1:43.31) RF: Well… JS: Who where you working with? RF: Lieutenant Curl by that time Holbeeke is long gone, Captain Holbeeke, and now we got Lieutenant Curl and he’s the adjutant general or adjutant whatever… JS: Yeah. RF: …of our battalion. He was my “supervisor” but he- he didn't bother me you know he, I guess he knew me attitude. And I'd been doing this longer than he had, this adjutant paperwork so I wasn't a, that was okay. His biggest problem was he was one night sleeping in his bunker and a rat bit his toe and he had to have rabies shots, boy not good. I didn't know rats would bite I just thought we had rats and almost every morning when it was, my rifle laying on the floor on that piece of plywood in the morning there I could see the rat tracks on the stock, that black plastic stock, the stock of an M16, rat tracks. And sometimes when I would be going, falling asleep and I can hear them running around the top of the bunker on those- those sandbags but I didn't worry about them, I thought eh they- they ain’t gonna- ain’t gonna hurt me. But once Lieutenant Curl �got bit, I found out that rabid, if rats- if rats have, are rabid they will bite to unprovoked because he was sleeping, dumb rat bit his big toe. So, he had to have shots. JS: Alright I'm gonna ask some kind of standard sort of Vietnam stereotype questions. RF: Yeah. (1:45.04) JS: One of the assumptions that people made is that there was a lot of drug use in Vietnam, did you see any of that? RF: Oh yeah marijuana I don't think, I don't know about other, I don't know anything about other drugs but yeah. And even at the at LZ Jane because if you walked around a little bit after. I didn't do it, I didn't touch it ever, but if I walked around a little bit in the evening you know nice evening walk around you could smell it coming out of some bunkers. It- it was around I don't, I didn't never touched it, never have. JS: Did guys in, out in the field use it at all? Or would they only use it in camp? RF: Not more than once. There's maybe once, we couldn't have it, in the field you couldn't put up with it and that's why they ended up back in the base camp and they would be helping the cook you know they- they would run errands. I mean you couldn't, they weren't gonna go home but they would get, we had outhouses at LZ Jane we did at An Khê too. We didn’t have a flush toilet so had these outhouses and the one close to our battalion, really close to the S1 tent had three holes in it and- and the backs behind it that was low that was- that was below the seats was open and they would have cut off 55-gallon drums about this deep and every day they would push a new one under there and so some of these guys that couldn't hack it in the field whether of pet, being petrified or- or smoking marijuana because we didn't put up with them in the field. Send back and do something with them. They would have to pull these things out and burn that. I don't �know if they used diesel fuel or kerosene, probably diesel fuel and burn that and put a clean one or an empty one back in. That's a job they had. JS: Yeah. RF: But they were happy but anyways… (1:47.12) JS: Yeah, they weren’t in the field. Alright so and then another issue is one of race relations, did you notice anything? RF: No in fact one of the company clerks, I think of Delta Company I think that's what D was in Delta, was a nice guy a black guy, very good worker did his job he was E-5. Nice guy, I wouldn't, these, the guys that just ended up cleaning out the John's, the outhouses, and the cooks; there was a mix of races. It wasn't a matter of what race you were to what you did it was because you couldn't do, be in the infantry, you couldn’t, well you couldn't be in the field and so that had but it had nothing to do with race. It had nothing to do with promotions, if you had spent enough time in grade and did your job you got promoted. Had nothing to do, I didn't even know what race some of these guys were by the time, you know I had in processed them when- when I talked to them about going on R&R about so-and-so on such-and-such. I didn't remember what race they were when it came to promotion time but I looked at how long they had been in and their company clerk said these guys have been in long enough and so I would put in for orders. I didn’t care, I didn’t think the army did. The S3 officer at LZ Jane was a black major, highestranking guy in the battalion but he was- he was intelligence officer. Nice guy didn’t… well of course he had the rank. JS: Yeah. RF: But that was, it wasn't that, he come in sit down and talk to us, you know, nice guy. �(1:49.17) JS: Now you were there when Martin Luther King was assassinated. RF: Yes, and Bobby Kennedy. JS: And but the King assassination have any ripple effects, or you hear anything about that? RF: I know that we were aware of it, we had stars and stripes of course when we- we knew of- of the, I'm sure I knew what things, well I learned from letters from home about Detroit and even in Grand Rapids. JS: Yep. RF: This was all going on, but I didn't worry about what was going on in Grand Rapids and Detroit. It was the least of my problems and I think we were too busy trying to keep our fanny down to- to create any racial, I didn't, I there might have been racial issues if you get to Saigon, and you know where life was different. I know it was Vietnam, but we were in an area where we had to depend on each other and I didn’t care if it, if he was black or Asian or whatever if, if he was on my side, he was a good guy. JS: Yeah. (1:50.28) RF: And I think they felt the same way about me of course I grew up on Black Hills we get back to that and I played on a, in the 50s when Jackie Robinson broke into the big league I was playing on a American Legion team 13- 14 year old’s where two of us were white and the rest of boys are black. Then at the same time our coach was Mr. James, he was black he invited two of us that had played in Little League that he felt were pretty good ball players to play on his American Legion team. We didn't call him coach, we didn't call him Doyle James, he was Mr. �James- Mr. James. I give my parents all the credit in the world, I had no idea that they- they said fine you play- play with Mr. James. We practiced at an old cinder field down on- on Rumsey and Godfrey. Terrible ball field, but it had a backstop. Hot! We'd practice and oh let's pool our money and somebody can go up the hill to the little grocery store and buy a bottle of pop, bring it back down, pull the cap off on a, on part of the chain-link fence burr on there and we shared it, passed it around. They, I didn't think of these ball players as black, I thought of them as ball, friends that played ball and I think they thought the same way about me. That's where I came from, so racial issue was not an issue for me in the army. I treated them as my friends, we’re in this together and I think I never felt like they looked at me differently I think it's because the way I treated them, I think. It- it- it's just never crossed my mind that we got racial issue here. I can't remember, I thought it was the other name of this Sergeant Delta Company clerk Fulton, Fuller? I don't remember, something like that, we hung out together you know is, we were friends. (1:52.41) JS: Sure. RF: Not close friends but we did this is, this was our life and we had it, we might as well share it. JS: At a place like LZ Jane, a relatively small base did you have any Vietnamese who would work on the base or they, ones living immediately outside? RF: No, no, they were, there was a little village outside and like I said I- I could get my shirts laundered and fatigues launder, you never got your own back, you just sent in some two shirts and you'd get two shirts. They were would, nothing- nothing personal about it but they did laundry. That was done, and I think that's what supported that village. I don't remember what we paid I'm sure I paid something, but we didn't have any Vietnamese on LZ Jane, we did it at- at An Khê, we had them they cleaned up, picked up trash I don't know what they did. I had nothing �really firsthand to do with them, but they were around, they weren't in the building, but they were out in the I don't know what they did, I know they picked up trash. JS: Yeah, at An Khê at least at some point while the CAV was there, there was also basically the house of prostitution on the villas immediately outside. RF: Yep that was part of An- part of An Khê ones like- like there was the main road from An Khê to Pleiku and then there was a little side, they didn’t call it a street but that was a red-light district that was there. JS: And then was there anything like that near Jane or was Jane too small? RF: Too small, the village there I don't- I don't- I don't I just pretty much stayed on that base I had no reason to go anywhere. JS: When you did the laundry did you just swap at the gate or something like that or through the wire or would you go into the village to do that. (1:54.40) RF: I- I didn't even do it, I just gave it probably to our supply guy and he'd have a whole bag of shirts and- and fatigue pants bring the whole business down and probably came back with some clean clothes and then if you turn, gave him two shirt- shirts you said, “hey I gave you two shirts.” “Okay here's two clean ones.” And I suppose we paid, but I never went into- into the village I- I could have I mean we had Jeeps sitting there. I could jump on a Jeep and go but I, why should I do that? This supply guy, that's his job. JS: Alright, okay so are there other particular incidents or memories that stand out for your time at Vietnam that you haven't brought into the story yet? RF: Well R&R I talked briefly about it, that was wonderful that was the Army did. My wife flew through military standby from Los Angeles to Honolulu so that was very inexpensive flight fair. �She had to pay regular tourist to- to Los Angeles, but it was a wonderful week. They, we were treated really nice to the- the community that we got a pocket, packet of coupons, we got a discount for rent a car, and a discount for various restaurants, and entertainment things. We went to a, the comedian that just got in big trouble, Bill Cosby, a Bill Cosby Show live there. Yeah that was a high point no question about it of my… (1:56.30) JS: Yeah, I'm sure. RF: And because I don't remember much about, I got pictures of Okinawa, but it was just to get out of Vietnam. I wanted to get out and then trying to get back in wasn't quite as easy as, I mean it was easy except I had to wait a day for, get a plane, otherwise it was easy, and nobody asked me questions. I just, said I had, just what I got to do. JS: Well I suppose someone saying he has to go to Vietnam wasn't gonna get a lot of argument. RF: No- no but leaving too I- I don't remember having any trouble I just went to the airstrip in An Khê because they were still flying out of An Khê at that, in June or no in October I guess I got somehow got to An Khê. I got to go to Cam Ranh Bay, okay this plane’s going to An Khê. It wasn't an airport it was an airstrip with a building, and you told the guy where you wanted to go. Okay he didn't care. (1:57.33) JS: Yep, not his job. Alright so now you, when do you get back to the states? When does your tour end? RF: That was in October of- of ‘67 of course. JS: Well ‘68 now, you went over in ’67, came back in ’68. �RF: Yeah, in ’68, October ’68. That was interesting of course then I had orders, so I- I didn't have to be so brazen I, cuz I always had paperwork. And processed, got down legally, down to Cam Ranh Bay again, to the out-processing center with my paperwork and they really had things organized there again. They- they treated you nice and okay your everything's in order maybe you got a… oh I got paid. I, they had been holding out a lot of money and they paid me cash. So, I had a pocket full of money and orders in certain your assigned such and such a flight that's such a such a time so be here and get on a bus and you go. It was on a Saturday before, no it was on a Saturday, we got off the ground at Cam Ranh Bay at 7:30 on a Saturday night. We got, that plane left the ground we clapped, stood up, clapped, we're all packed in again commercial flight but three seats on each side of a tiny little aisle. They had flight attendants that gave us a box of food. We made a, but it was, everybody was happy nobody was complaining but in cramped quarters. We stopped in Japan to refuel again, can't get off the plane these guys are, you can't trust them, I guess. And no, but I don't care, fill up, get the fuel in this thing and we're ready to go again nono muss no trouble. One stop in Japan, I thought we were gonna, I think we were led to believe, and I thought we were gonna have to stop in Alaska, but they didn't they went directly to Fort Lewis, Washington. We landed in Fort Lewis, Washington Saturday night course you got this dateline thing so you same day twice. (1:59.48) JS: Right. RF: Opposite going that way, so we landed Fort or McChord Air Force base on, we left on Saturday night 7:30 we landed there at 7 o'clock Saturday night, half hour before we left so, I know it's a 23 and a half hours, wouldn't stop for fuel Japan. We're getting treated nicer and nicer still in these grubby old clothes but bus us into Fort Lewis, walk into a processing center. First �thing they do is measure us for a dress Green's, gotta do more paperwork of course, they gotta tell us that we're still in the Army and how we supposed to behave and we've got a 30-day leave and my orders now are cut to go to Fort Polk. Oh yeah, this reminds me when you, before you left Vietnam a month or two beforehand you could fill out a slip to say where you'd like to be stationed if, because I came back with more than 90 or 100 days so I had to serve my time. JS: Yeah. RF: You could write down, so I put down Fort DeRussy, Hawaii was my first choice I liked that because I was in Hawaii it was a nice place. Second choice Fort Carson, Colorado never been there but I thought it sounds like it’d probably be nice. And Fort Dix, New Jersey cause it's out east and we’d probably get to see a little bit around Washington, D.C. and Philadelphia, that's cool I like history. Get my orders Fort Polk, Louisiana. Now still I'm not gonna complain I know all about Fort Polk but now my MOS, I'm an E-5 been an E-5 for more than, well I wasn't in the army a year and I had made E-5. Make rank like crazy in Vietnam and so I'm an E-5 and I'm I- I had my MOS change from Eleven Bravo to 71 Bravo because I thought if this clerk- clerk’s job doesn't work out I don't want to go back out in the field if I can help it. So, I changed my MOS but secondary MOS is still Eleven Bravo but primary is 71 Bravo clerk. (2:02.00) JS: Okay clerk. RF: Clerk Typist. So, anyway we're at Fort Lewis, Washington they treat us really nice do this paperwork of course I got orders they, and then they give me some money to travel from Fort Lewis to Fort Polk, but I got a 30-day leave. I don't have to report for 30 days so you're on your own. By that time the dress greens were all ready, patches on them, nice and spruced up, new shoes, new hat, everything’s really looking sharp. And you can stay for a steak dinner, I don't �want a steak dinner, I want to get out of here, I'm going home. I don't know how many guys stayed, we get out the door and there's a whole line of taxicabs and the first guy pulls up a little bit, the first five guys out the door get in that one, the next five get out the next one, they all know you're gonna go to the airport. Or maybe the guy said “we're going to the airport,” “yep that's where I want to go,” so you and then he probably said, “five bucks a head,” or whatever, I don't know what we all paid, five bucks or whatever the amount was. Brings us the Seattle Tacoma Airport and timing was perfect I go in I think well United I know about they fly into O'Hare pretty regularly. I went up to O'Hare counter the guy says… “I want to go to Chicago.” He says, “okay it'd be 94 buck’s military standby, but you got to run.” All I got is this satchel, he says, “gate such-and-such.” Took my money, gave me a ticket, he says, “go this way, turn this way, and it's gate such-and-such and they're ready to leave so you got to run.” That's okay pick up my satchel, ticket, run, and made it. So, we fly, I didn't have a chance to call home they didn’t know where I am for all, they don't know if I'm in Vietnam, they don't know if I'm dead or alive literally. Because going to Okinawa my wife got concerned, she didn’t get any mail, there was a chopper crash that neared Da Nang and the guys were on their way home so she's nervous. I didn't know anything about that I didn't have time to call from Seattle, run to get the airplaneplane, fly to Chicago, march up to the United counter, and by this time it's probably three in the morning or so that guessing. I wanted to go to Grand Rapids, “okay the next flight is like 7:00 or 7:30 in the morning.” “That's okay I can wait, how much?” He says, “34 bucks.” I said, “34 bucks? I want to go military standby isn’t there room?” He says, “I can't tell you.” Oh hmm, well probably there’s room but he's not gonna say I- I says, “can I buy a regular ticket?” “Yeah,” he says, “I can sell ya a not a first class but tourists.” (2:05.03) �JS: Yeah. RF: Yeah okay, coach 34 bucks. But now I can call, I get the ticket, call my wife’s, she was living with her parents while I was overseas I called that house, talk to my father-in-law and says “I'm in Chicago I got a ticket for Grand Rapids I'll be there such- such time.” My wife had; I didn't know unbeknownst to me she rented a mobile home from another; she was part of an Overseas Wives Club got to know these gals. All these guys in Vietnam their wives got together once or twice a month for dinner and to chat. Well some guy came back and he was going, had to go down to Fort Hood, Texas I guess and his wife, they had this mobile home in Cutlerville and my wife could rent it for a month because they were gonna be gone. Okay, so she did I didn't know about that, so I didn't know how to get ahold of her anyway, but I called her home talked to my father-in-law told him when I was gonna be there. Yeah everything's fine he let my wife know, my parents know, my parents let my siblings know. And this was Sunday morning, I get on that plane there's five of us. I could’ve rung that ticket agent’s neck charging me instead of 17 bucks 34. Now 34 isn't much today and it wasn't a whole lot then I had a pocket full of money because I didn't, I only collected thirty or thirty-five dollars a month in Vietnam. The rest of it they were banking for me. Heck what a- what a character, he knew there was plenty of room, the guy in Seattle charged me military standby without asking. I got a uniform on, wants to go to Chicago, what a difference. Oh man I gotta forget about it you know but you something you don't- don't forget like, yeah, he could have done better he coulda, “yeah there's plenty of room here 17 bucks,” he didn't. So, got- got to the Grand Rapids and everybody is there of course, except my mother and the story was she was, she wasn't feeling well, had cold or something. I think it was just too much emotional stress for so long, she would see me Sunday morning and she couldn't make it and that, I can understand that. Cause she was such a gracious woman and �quiet and loving, I'm sure that year was hard on her, as it was on me and she was just so thankful that her son made it home, but she didn't want to be at the airport. I- I’m, that's my story I'm thethe official story is she wasn't, she had a cold. She had a cold she could’ve, but anyway my dad was there, my brothers and their family and it was cool, yeah it was cool. That's why I started showing you that picture of that mobile home it said ‘welcome home Rog’ on it. That sign was made by one of my wife's uncles who was an artist and he quickly made that sign on Sunday morning and taped it up on that mobile home before we got there. JS: Alright so now this is still coming back and you're not done with the army yet. RF: No. I had yeah… (2:08.34) JS: You’re reacquainted and then it's, okay off to Fort Polk with you. How long did you have to serve now? RF: Well I came back in October, November 5 with my birthday that was in, I was on leave at the time and that also was election day and Richard Nixon was re-elected was… JS: Elected, first time. RF: First time, okay he was elected. I voted absentee from Vietnam I don't know, I sent it in, I assume I voted. But any way that was on my birthday but then middle of November I had orders I had to show up at Fort Polk at such- such and such an office. Which I didn’t know where it was, we got down and we went down together. Not knowing they didn't have married housing, but I drove on base to the guard post and I said who I was, I maybe I don't think he wanted to see my orders, there, don’t, wasn't worried about that stuff then. I said who I was and I have to report to a certain building I don't where it is, he gave me directions, I went in there, and the guy says, “we don't have any married housing, you can, you'll have to live off-base in Leesville or at De �Ridder,” two little towns near there. And he said, “if you go to Leesville go to the Chamber of Commerce.” It's upstairs over a shoe store or something, it was upstairs in an old building downtown- downtown Leesville. So, I did some paperwork I'm sure he said, “okay you're gonna work at this headquarters company for permanent party, be a clerk there.” Okay I don't know if I even went there, I went in, we went into Leesville tell ya, we went upstairs to the Chamber of Commerce, gal sitting behind the desk and said, “okay I'm here, I got in the army,” my wife is standing next to me. I says, “we have to, we told we got to rent some place, and you have some information, some listings.” She says, “yep.” She opened her dress- desk drawer there's a stack of three by five cards with a sign ‘white’ and on this stack ‘black.’ She hand me the white stack so we walk over to a little counter, we shuffle through them and find a few places that maybe might be interested. Write down notes, we couldn't take the cards, but we could write down some scratch paper some notes and addresses. And we headed out to this first place we visited, it was a trailer, that might be okay. Couldn't even get to the door it was sitting in a big mud puddle, didn't even get inside. Well head back we got another place closer in town. And the guy is setting out the sign in his front door, ‘for rent’ nice brick ranch house, wow that's where we want to go. Turn around, pull in the driveway talk to the guy “oh yeah,” he says, “it's the building behind the house there.” Went there, screen is hanging, screen door hanging on one hinge. He's with us, we get inside, the refrigerator door won't close, it's just one little shack of a room. Can't stay here, no thank you, back in the car. Went to the third place which was housing built by the military for officers during World War II, but they had been sold off to private party and they're now renting but of course they're renting primarily to GI’s, that’s okay. Lots of buildings, we found an apartment building available, or rent, on the end unit, a four-apartment building, old, furnished. �We rented it, so that's where we live for until May because I had to go from November now it is, middle of November to middle of May. What is that, six or seven months, whatever. JS: Okay and- and what was the actual job you were doing? (2:12.43) RF: Okay I- I, in my journal I write, I don't really remember. I know that I was, I can still see this orderly room; first sergeant had his desk right behind the little fence by the door where guys would come in and complain about this and that. I don't know what was in this corner, but over here was the company clerk, it was a guy from Pennsylvania who had sergeant stripes on, but he was an E-4 but just because he was a company clerk and these guys were supposed to listen to him, they made him sergeant stripes but he wasn't a sergeant. He sat here, I sat here, and there was a private office and that was for the- for the company clerk, or the company commander. I didn't even remember him, he must have been there, but I- I didn’t pay any attention to him. And I- I can remember like only a couple of things; one my- one my, the company clerk did most the work. I don't know what I did. The first sergeant… One thing I did is if there was a military funeral of a, somebody killed in Vietnam that from eastern Texas or Louisiana and had requested a military funeral, Fort Polk would provide the- the honor guard and that was always done then by an E-6 in charge and then permanent party and it was my job to assign these guys on a rotating basis to do a funeral detail as we called it. That’s right I did that, I just assign ‘em, let him know, “hey you got such a such a day you got to go to, I’ll say, Mississippi,” well not Mississippi, maybe yeah, cuz they went quite a ways sometimes. That was my job, and one time they were on their way back and again I'd made no care whether black or white guys, they were GI’s, that's the way that we wanted to treat each other. They're coming back on the bus they were gonna have to stay overnight and the NCO in charge walked in along with the- the, these other �guys. They’re all NCOs or maybe E-4 at the least, mostly E-5’s and plus the E-6. E-6 says, “okay we- we need some rooms.” The clerk in the motel says, “well you guys can stay, but he can't.” “Oh no we're back on the bus,” so they didn't- they didn't stay. Well good for that NCO that said, “no- no we're all stay or none of us stay, too bad for you, you’ll have no more money.” So, theythey just came back. But you know every, most of the guys there were serving out their required time and they ran these ranges on- on Tiger Ridge training new, more guys. We didn’t have the best attitude, we had a lot of trouble on Monday morning, two guys got arrested for drunk and disorderly in town, you know, and you try and get them out of jail. And troubles like that or fights, these guys are not adjusting well and they're getting in fights. I didn't show up for revelry because I figured I worked in the orderly room, I'm gonna get there, I can take care of the paper you know I'm here. Just not a good attitude. The other thing I remember we must have had us, had a change in command at some level and the sergeant major came in, talked to the first sergeant, and says, “I need some guy to carry the flag, and a flagbearer during this ceremony.” First sergeant says, I don't remember his name he sits, turns, he was an E-7 said to me, “Faber you're the guy.” Oh brother I don't know, and so the sergeant major gets me out there by his office, showing me where, when I got to hold the flag down, and when I gotta tip it up, and what close I have to wear, and make sure your shoes are shined, and all this stuff. I remember doing that. I played a lot of pool, we had a pool room in the back part of the orderly room, through some doors and a day room type of thing. I played a lot of pool, and it got to the point when these guys were getting close to getting discharged, they had to come in and do some paperwork and so the first sergeant is busy telling them they ought to reenlist, you know. You tell them to sign up, you know you're E-5 if you sign up there's a $10,000 bonus and they'll give you another stripe, you'll be E-6 instantly. He's telling them that and I’m “no, no, no, no” shaking my head �no. No don’t do it and most of them didn't, most of them were, but he noticed what I was doing and so one afternoon he said, “Faber, you come in in the morning, we, I guess I was supposed to be at 7:30 and I was, I'm a morning person, I was there on time. He says, “you come in in the morning, do your work, and you get out of here. I don't want to see you around. I don't care where you go, you get out of here.” So, often I was at home by 10 o'clock in the morning. One day, this is interesting too, I'm I- I like to golf now but then I didn't golf much but there was a golf course on Fort Polk. And I don't remember what it, couldn't have cost more than a buck or two to play golf, and rent some clubs, dragged them around, and I'm playing all by myself, and all of a sudden there's some guy just hitting the ball a ton. So, I walk off to the side of the fairway and say, “come on just go through,” you know, “you're doing so good.” And he catches up with me says, “no- no we can play together.” He's really good, I'm really bad but hey I don't care if he. I had civilian clothes I took with me I'm not in a uniform. I took some regular civilian clothes changed and then I go play golf. Couple of holes we played together and out comes the guy from the clubhouse on a golf cart and he says to this guy I'm golfing with, “the old man is ready for his lesson.” This guy puts his clubs on the golf cart gets on the golf cart with him and go takes off, so I finished playing golf and get back to the clubhouse, turn these rented clubs in, say, “okay, who is that guy? That was golfing and you came out and picked him up.” He says, that’s Tom Weiskopf!” “Oh.” “He's a professional golfer.” “Oh, no wonder he’s so good.” Yeah quite a coincidence you know, so Sunday, a month or two later, he- he was in basic training in National Guard basic training. Which they also had basic training at Fort Polk, but I was always part of Tiger Ridge. He was there for basic training probably February or so or March, I don't know I'm watching a television on Sunday afternoon, golf there's Tom Weiskopf they’re talking about Tom Weiskopf playing golf. I'll be darned, I know that guy it's interesting how funny �things happen. And I would time my trip, I would never want… leaving the base going back home when I first got there and had a work a whole day, I timed my trip so I wasn't driving past the main post flag at retreat because then you had to stop, stand outside your car, and salute. I didn't want to do that, I would go early or late, but I didn't want to do that. (2:20.40) JS: And while you were there did your wife get a job, or? RF: No, she couldn't. There were all kinds of army wife’s there, you know and then she became pregnant so then she wasn't feeling so good. But I don't think she tried; I don't think that the city folks liked us a whole lot. They- they wanted us there, but they didn't like us. Granted- granted a lot of GIs were troublemakers think just caused a problem for that little town. They [unintelligible]… even this town is so small my wife needed a pair of shoes, we had to drive to Alexandria. That was a 50-mile trip to buy a pair of shoes. They didn't have her sized shoes in town or at least that she wanted to buy; it was crazy. Same thing when we were in, right after we got married, she had been working in a bank. And what was Michigan National Bank way back then before- before we got married. We moved to Madison, couldn't get a job because I was draft eligible, nobody wanted, they- they knew what was going to happen more than likely. And there was enough people that now, and when we, when we got out she didn't go back to work. I gotta, when I got out of Fort Polk, got out of there on a Friday I was supposed to get out on Sunday, but they didn't process Saturday and Sunday, so I got out on Friday before. Walked out of that building with my pay and travel pay from Fort Polk up to Grand Rapids, Michigan so I'm getting plenty of cash and we're moving home. That was on a Friday, we hit Grand Rapids Sunday afternoon, it was Mother's Day. I had forgotten that, but when I worked through my journal and then wrote down things from my grandkids and kids, my wife says, “that was Mother's Day �when we got home.” Then she didn't go back to work. I had a, I had been working in Madison and I had every intention of going back and they were obligated to give me a job back and I wrote to the guy that I really connected with there and he still worked there, Palmer Hayes and asked him for some drawings because I said Palmer I think I would like to, in a letter, I'd like to see if I could get a job in Grand Rapids. I've been away for two years, my family is all there, my wife's family, see if I can get a job. I don’t know so don't say too much. So, he fixed me up with a set of drawings that I had done some of the drawings on. Get home and my brother-in-law says, “you know there's this one small firm guy, nice guy owns it, his name is Dave Post. Why don’t you talk to him?” So, I called him up he says, “yeah come in to see me, we'll go to lunch someday.” So, I went down, we went to lunch, he was a member of the Pen Club, we had a nice lunch. On the way back he says, “you got a job.” So, that was it, worked and my wife didn't go back to work until our kids were in middle school and high school and then she went back to work. (2:24.03) JS: Okay. RF: Yeah that's kind of my story. JS: Alright so to look back in the time you spent in the service, so how do you think that affected you or what did you take out of it? RF: Oh, it man, it affected me dramatically, especially my time in Vietnam because we knew no [unintelligible], wedidn't, I didn't to this day Jim we got a very nice house. I became registered afterwards, so I'm a registered architect and I had a good career. We have a nice house in Forest Hills. There's a downspout outside our bedroom wall at the corner of the house. If it's raining, I can hear water dripping down that downspout and I thank God for a clean, dry, warm place to �sleep. I- I, it's changed me, my baseline of what I need has went, really dropped because my wife will say, “you know we really ought to replace some carpet.” And she doesn't want em, hear mehear me say I said, “I think it's like brand-new.” But it's okay for me but I- I, we've been married for 51 years. If she says we got to replace a carpet, we replace the carpet but not because I've ever noticed, it- it's just so that- that has changed me and it's a good thing, I don't feel bad about that. Now I volunteer every Friday with Family Promise, the homeless shelter for families. I do that for a couple of reasons; I used to tutor and mentor young men, African American, black boys. Now I volunteer with Family Promise again because I got I- I've been blessed so much in my lifetime and the military service has been part of that. It’s had the impact on me that I have real empathy for homeless families. Family Promise is unique because they keep the dads and the older boys with their mother and the little- little kids. They have 27 families in the program, the families at this point spend only a month to two months, by that time they, Family Promise has helped them develop the resume, coached them on interviewing, found him a job, and found them affordable housing. Then they're offered a mentor or a coach, whatever they want to call it to work with them for the next year or whatever. They'll meet with you once a month, once a week, once- twice a month, once a month, help them make better decisions. These aren't bad people, some of them yeah I wonder about, but most of them are not bad people, but they made bad decisions only be… primarily because they didn't have the benefit of a family unit that didn't even tell them how to make decisions, they did, my parents showed this, showed us how. They you know, so I kind of caught it. I wasn't taught it, but I was caught it I saw my parents sacrifice so we could go to Christian school that was more important than having a different car or having a television. So, the, I- I attribute some of that to my parents; the upbringing I had and my faith which is still very, most important to me, and then my family. And I want to leave some legacy �to my children and grandchildren of what I think is important. So, at Christmastime I give all the grandkids $20 and tell them I would like you to contribute this to some organization, any organization you choose, just send me an email on where it went. So, I know you did something good with it. And I hope that that has, that they'll remember Grandpa Faber by that, now three of them are in college, one of them is transferring to Grand Valley. She wants to be a ultrasonographer or whatever they call it, she's- she went two years to Lee University and now she's going up to Grand Valley. I got, she's the oldest, then I got a grandson, or we do have a grandson who goes to Grove City College in Grove City, Pennsylvania he's on a full ride scholarship very bright. And another grandson goes to Judson University in Elgin, Illinois. They have an excellent architecture school and that's where he's going and he's doing better than he did in high school. Which was same thing for me, I just wasn't motivated and applied myself enough in high school. I did much better in college. All of that's okay, but I- I'm hoping that they sense, you know grandpa, there's some more important things to grandpa than, I want them to get an education, but I want them to use it. They have some God gifted- God gifted talent and I want them to develop it. Have another grandson who's gonna be a senior in high school in Chicago Christian next year, my daughter and her husband live there. She's a teacher in Christian middle school but Alex will graduate, he said always for years he wanted to go to the Air Force Academy, that’s fine Alex. We saw him this fall and I said… are they still taping all this? Because this is nothing to do with Vietnam, this is just me now talking. JS: This is- this is just a, we're moving toward closing out it's fine. (2:29.47) RF: This, anyway, saw Alex last fall, Grandparent’s Day at Chicago Christian High School. We’re eating lunch at this table, his other grandparents are sitting across, Alex is there, Alex’s �friend, Judy and I. And I said to Alex, “you go to the Air Force Academy” And he's, I had witnessed him in an honors calculus class, this kid is bright. He's doing it on his iPad, and or on his laptop and his phone these problems that teachers, and he's scoring in the top three in his class doing the problem twice. Anyway, bright kid I started, “getting major in engineering?” He says, “grandpa,” he says, “I think I'm being called to be a teacher and teach religion class in high schools.” “Good Alex,” it almost made me cry that, you know, I- I think they're learning more than an education, education is important I'm not minimizing it. It's very important but to me there's- there's some character that's more important, just as important. You can be a person of high character delivering coal; I saw that and it's just good work and he could have done more but he did the best he could. My mother couldn't finish school either, she could have been a librarian, very- very bright but didn't have that opportunity. They were born in 1908, 1906 lived through the Depression, anyway that's getting away off. (2:31.31) JS: Alright. RF: I’m- I gotta say about any reflections on this, I mentioned I think briefly that I think Vietnam was a mistake and that they did, we never understood what the Vietnamese wanted. They wanted to have all of us occupiers out of here we didn't get it. It, after watching the documentaries it really, I had read a book several years ago about Vietnam, the history or something I think it was produced PBS or NPR or something. It was very thick book I lent to my daughter, but in there it was the first time I heard that maybe the Gulf of Tonkin was based not on a fact and that troubled me. Then Robert McNamara on his deathbed fessed up. LBJ never did, Robert McNamara said it was, it was not the truth. Which gave a basis for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which gave the president the- the authority to build this thing up. And then I watched a documentary and I hear �these politicians say, “I- I know we can't, literally, I know we're not gonna win but I gotta get reelected.” And my blood boils to think how can you do that, how can you sleep at night. Now we have a memorial 58,000 names of young people, primarily young people. What do you want to say to their parents? Want to say to their siblings or to their spouse? How can you, how could, how would you do that? So now I've become not skeptical anymore, I'm cynical and I don't like that and I'm trying not to be angry about it, but when I think about it. (2:33.21) JS: Sure. RF: It- it, I- I am angry that, I expect more better from our leaders. I really do. JS: Yeah, I think that's a perfectly reasonable expectation. I'll tell you it makes for a very good story and you tell it well, so I just like to close this by thanking you for taking the time to share it today. RF: Well my pleasure, I did recall from that initial interview which I wasn't- wasn’t prepared for didn't but when I watched the videos that I did and went through that process and then I got youryour mailing, I thought I- I’ll share this, he can do what he wants. Maybe it's nothing but I put a lot of work into, took me a long time, a lot of thought, a lot of remembering. So, now my interview can be better too because I… JS: Right. RF: I recalled, and I got a different perspective on things. Yeah so, okay good. JS: Alright. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_FaberR1990V Title A name given to the resource Faber, Rojer (Interview transcript and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-05-29 Description An account of the resource Roger Faber was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on November 5, 1945 where he graduated high school in 1964. He studies architecture at Ferris State College and went to work in Wisconsin before he was drafted into the Army. Faber attended Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. He was then deployed to An Khê with Bravo Company, 1st Cavalry Division. His platoon guarded bridges and conducted Ambush duties in the Highlands. For the remainder of his tour in Vietnam, Faber served as an S1 Clerk for the Headquarters Battalion in An Khê, Utah Beach, and LZ Jane. Afterwards, he was sent back to the U.S. to serve out the rest of his service at Fort Polk as a Headquarters Company clerk. When he finally left the service, Faber and his wife moved back to Grand Rapids where he resumed his architectual work. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Faber, Rojer Lee Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5795c5bf1504d7cd1254b400e62ea506.mp4 a6ae3da3d36867a98e14df68a0411b94 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6351b216c2eb2dc62555b7f977e5a125.pdf bf0fa2d237b393c9fb9dd52be71fe5d5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Wallace “Wally” Ewing Interview Length: (24:57) Interviewed by Frank Boring Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Okay, my name is Wallace Ewing, but I usually go by Wally and I was born on September 11th, 1932. Of course, 9/11’s become kind of an important date in recent years but when I was born, I was the only event, and I was born in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Okay, what was your early childhood like? Well I was born in the height of The Depression and my father in fact was out of work when I was born and that's why I happened to be born in Grand Rapids because we lived in Grand Haven, but we had no residence and so we lived with my father's parents during my birth, and for a couple of months after that. Childhood was good, I had solid parents, I had an older brother, and two older sisters, so I was the baby of the family, I got treated like the baby, nothing wrong with that in retrospect. My dad changed jobs a lot, so we moved around a lot, Grand Haven was always emotional home, that's where we came home to. We had relatives that lived here and ancestors that could go back some ways but we lived in Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana, as well as Michigan so the variety of locations and during that upbringing, I learned that it's a challenge especially when you're young to make an adjustment to a new environment every time you move and I think that probably helped me in the long run, but at the time it was kind of a trauma. (2.11) �Interviewer: So, you were born in 1932, your father, you have a fam- you have a father, you have a family, but 1940’s became very difficult time in- in the world. What, did you have any indication of what was going on in the world as you were growing up? I was paying attention to what went on even though I was quite young yet, but it, the impact of that didn't really sink in until I became some years older. As a youngster 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 it- it's hard to relate to those kinds of problems, the world war strife and of course there was the second recession that came along that kind of changed the improvement that had taken place in the later ‘30’s, but all of that was interesting to me but I didn't really absorb it. Interviewer: Sure, in 1942 you would have been 10 years old, we already, Pearl Harbor had already happened, do you remember any of it? (3.12) Oh, I do. Interviewer: Okay, what… We lived on North Shore and near Ferrysburg that year, that winter and I remember we gathered around the console radio as so many families did and listened to the reports, the news reports that were coming in of this bombing, again I didn't absorb that. I didn't know exactly what that meant, but I knew it was bad. And I have a very clear memory of that Sunday by the radio, yes. Interviewer: What was your, what- what happened to your family, in terms of your father, was he called up or what happened in terms of that? My father at that time was what, 48 years old so he was beyond the- the draft age but my brother and my sister both enlisted in the Navy during World War II, my brother graduated from high school in 1943 in Muskegon and immediately enlisted and my sister was somewhat older, but she enlisted about the same time, both in the Navy. �Interviewer: Let’s backtrack just a little bit, you- you have a Navy family I take it. I do because my father served in World War I as a radio man and he was, received training at Harvard University and that's where he met my mother. (4.27) Interviewer: So now the war years, tell us about the war years here in mid-Michigan, this area. It's a little bit, several aspects of that but it's a little bit shameful in one way, but I was, you know 11/ 12 years old and I would read Time Magazine and see where the front was moving this way and the front was moving that way, and it was obviously worse than a football game but it was kind of, our guys have gained a few yards, our guys have lost a few yards, they’ve scored, the other team has scored. But at least I followed that, I knew what was going on in the Eastern Front and the Western Front. The war years in Grand Haven were certainly we were not deprived of much of anything, but, we again as young people were aware of the needs and we'd saved metal and turn that in, save paper, turn that in, any kind of tin foil, anything like that that could, rubber, that could be recycled was turned in, and we had that kind of activity. In addition, there were the bond drives and for 18 dollars and 75 cents you get a $25 bond, it’d be worth $25 in ten years. And at that time that seemed like pretty good money, so we'd invest in that and you get these little books that had the stamps in them that every time you bought a stamp you make progress towards that $18.75 and getting that bond. Interviewer: And as, do you recall the end of the war? (6.03) Oh absolutely. �Interviewer: I mean Europe first and then Japan. Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. I do indeed, I was going to a- a school in Grand Haven at that time on, between Franklin Street and Clinton, seventh and sixth. And my sister, another sister, not the one in the Navy, lived across the street. She had a- a couple children at that time, she lived upstairs and I remember hearing that the war in Europe was ended, it was V-E Day and the schools were dismissed I think and we spent a lot of time just with my sister in her car, going up and down the streets honking our horns and cheering. It was a, really a joyful occasion. When V-J Day came later that year in the end of the summer, I was at a boy's camp up north and I remember when the bomb was dropped and again you know you’d be gettin’- getting old enough to really absorb what that means and then watched the capitulation of the Japanese I think it was on September 3rd, 1945. And felt the again, the joy, the relief that that part of our life was over. (7.16) Interviewer: Can you describe if you can remember soldiers returning home- soldiers returning home, Grand Haven, Grand Rapids? No, I don't, I just remember my- my brother coming home and that he had been stay, he was also a radioman like his dad, our dad. And he was stationed on Attu Island I think it was in the Aleutian Islands in Alaska. And so again he was not faced with active combat, but he did experience the war in that regard. When he came back it was a relief and then he benefited from the GI Bill, started Michigan State University, the winter began and he said, “you know what, I don't like winter.” And he went to the southwest and never came back. Interviewer: How about your sister returning? �She returned but not to Grand Haven, so she went to Washington, D.C. and got a job as a science writer there and I have no memory of her response. (8.21) Interviewer: So, as your- your now between wars so to speak, what were you goals after the war was over with? You’re in high school by now? I was in high school, started high school in 1946 and the goal was to get through high school and college obviously was mandatory. My parents didn't have any, we didn't have enough money to send me to college and I heard about a program that was called the Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps, NROTC and at that time I was going to high school in Chicago, and I applied for an entrance exam, took the entrance exam, and just one occa- one- one event in that while we're taking the exam, they were long, it was about six hours of- of test questions, and about halfway through, the, now it was lunchtime so all these guys stood up and suddenly some officer stood on the stage and yells, “stand fast.” I don't think anybody had ever heard the phrase “stand fast” before but everybody knew what it meant, and the whole crowd sat down immediately. It's a way that you learn language, by intonation, emphasis, as well as the words. At any rate I passed the exam and was admitted into the University of Wisconsin, in Madison, and began my career, very short career with the Navy at that time. (9.57) Interviewer: So, what was the actual- what was the actual procedure, you know, of getting in? Well passing the- the test was the- the very extensive and intensive examination that measured your verbal skills, your mathematics skills, your science knowledge, and- and all aspects of life at that time, history as well. And so, you had to pass that, and you had to pass at a fairly high �level to get through and I was fortunate enough to somehow make that happen. And then there was a physical exam and one little sidelight of that, I’ll tell you a little family story, when I was, I think was nine years old and my mother said, “it's time for you to get a dental checkup.” So, I went to the dentist and, “oh he's got a great set of choppers, nothing to worry about.” That ended any worries that my parents ever had about my teeth, I never went to a dentist again. So, I went for this physical and had a dental exam and he said, “we can't let you in until you get those cavities filled.” So, I had seventeen cavities that had to be filled and my mother said, “well that's your problem, you take care of it.” So it was five dollars a- a filling, $85 out of my meager savings that I had to put into this kind of like an investment and but once that was done and I passed the physical, everything was set and all I had to do was show up at the University of Wisconsin on a certain date in September of 1950 and start my time with a NROTC. (11.31) Interviewer: So, what was ROTC like at that time? Well the NROTC was a- a group of good, it was made up of a group of good young men, I think I made some good friends there unfortunately not lifetime friends but friends at the time. And because what was coming ahead, we spent a lot of time together not only on the campus but on our summer cruises during the next three summers. There was, we had to take naval science courses and my brain is both sides are literary oriented, so that was a bit of a challenge for me, but somehow, I managed. And just had a- a- a, yeah, I didn't really care for military life I'll be honest. Too stringent, too demanding I thought. I'll give you one example, one of the summers I was at Quantico in Virginia and during, at the evening we were off and I’d be, had been elevated to a platoon leader which big deal, and when we went to see a movie it was called High Noon with Gary Cooper and Grace Kelly. I neglected to take off my cap, that was a transgression, an �officer saw me, I was stripped of my platoon leadership and relegated to the- the platoon as a follower. And I just thought, wow that's pretty small, you know Cap, tell me, reprimand me, but don't strip that from me, but it happened so probably like if I've remembered it that long, you know all these years, it must have been a good lesson for me and I think maybe I learned something from that. (13.21) Interviewer: During ROTC did you have to go to boot camp? No boot camp. Interviewer: Okay. Well it- it, well it depends on how you define boot camp, I didn't have to go to Great Lakes or anything like that. But we did have a vigorous training during those, our active weeks during the summers of ’51, ’52, and ’53. Six weeks each summer that was devoted to learning more Naval skills, either on the water or on land. In the summer of 1952 our group was sent to Quantico for about half our time there and then we took a troop train which was an experience from Quantico, Virginia to Corpus Christi, Texas for training at the Naval Air Station there, and to be on a troop train for two solid days, not allowed to get off the train was also an experience. (14.18) Interviewer: And these were all ROTC people? Yes. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah- yeah. Interviewer: So, these were the people you had been with all this period of time. �Yes, these are other young men who were on the scholarship program at the UniversityUniversity of Wisconsin through the NROTC. Interviewer: Okay, so, once you competed the ROTC part- part, what was the next step? Well, let- let me… Interviewer: Sure. If I- if I could I’d like to backtrack just a little bit because we took two summer cruises that were overseas, and they were important, I think. In 1951 I went to Norfolk, Virginia and got on the DD-864, the H. J. Ellison there and we then sailed out of Norfolk, went to Panama Canal, which was an experience, went to Gitmo, Guantanamo Bay, saw that in it's more or less early years, least a lot earlier than it is right now, and learned a bit about the sailor’s life and an officer's life. As a midshipman, we were, had a variety of experiences, we might be in the boiler room, we might be on the bridge, might be in some other category. And- and we learned how to feed the ack-ack guns with the 50-millimeter shells and fire those in practice, but still, learned how to do it. And that was a- a really good experience, even though, you know did a lot of paint chipping, and painting, and that kind of routine stuff too, but I learned a lot. Then in the summer of 1953 we sailed out of Norfolk and went to New York City which was, never been there before, that was an experience, and from New York City we went to Edinburgh, Scotland. As a- a, with my Scots background, that was an exciting experience and I remember walking around Edinburgh and- and getting acquainted with the tartans and some of the clans that were there. And the train, the Navy provided us with a train down to London, so we spent a couple of days there too, and that was a great experience, in fact they put us up at a London hotel and it's the only time in my whole life I was ever served breakfast in bed. So, here's this midshipman sleeping in a little bit, �and a knock on the door and the maid comes in with the breakfast on a tray, hey this is pretty neat; I can take this. (16.43) Interviewer: 1950’s, did London have a evidence of the war? Absolutely, there were still- still blocks of, that were devastated, buildings that had been destroyed by the bombing and The Blitz, yeah. It was very- very apparent at that time. And then we had another exciting trip from there, we went from Edinburgh to Oslo and went up the, if you’ve ever been to Oslo you know that there is long fjords and exciting experience to go into those fjords and see the lovely snow-capped mountains and that was 1953, and the year before, 1952 had been the Winter Olympics so we saw the- the remains of that too, the ski jump and theand the areas where they did the- the skiing and the skating. And I met a lovely young Norwegian, a woman there who knew English and she escorted me around, showed me the different sites in Oslo and it was a- it was a great experience. One time the- the Navy arranged a lot of out… special activities for us and they had a bus that was going to take the Midshipmen to Bergen, another Norway- Norwegian City and got to the bus and got loaded up, we went into the city of Oslo and they said, “you know we have too many people out here, we need some volunteers who are willing to bow out.” And I thought, wow I can bow out and no one will know. They’ll think I'm in Bergen and the people in Bergen will think I'm in, back at the ship, so I probably pretty dumb thing to do but I said, “okay I'll volunteer to leave.” I left, I rented a room in a hotel, The Hotel Philadelphia I took off my tie and- and all the paraphernalia that indicated I was Navy, and I just had a great weekend in- in Oslo and got back to my ship and they were absolutely no repercussions. So, it turned out alright, but I wouldn’t recommend it to anybody. (18.53) �Interviewer: I was gonna ask you also about your social life, but you’ve pretty given us, you had opportunities to down time. Yeah, we did we had leave, we had shore leave. And you know Oslo is just such a memorable place so was London and Edinburgh, but Oslo was special because we were there in early August and the land of the Midnight Sun, the Sun didn't set until midnight and it rose about 3 o'clock in the morning. So, there was very little dark and it just, when you're young, 20 years old, and you have that time and that- that opportunity it's just great to rejoice in that. And I and my buddies we- we did. Interviewer: So, once that period of your ROTC was over with, what was the next step? What’d you do from there? Well it gets complicated because my personal life got in the way, one of the criteria of being a midshipman is that you remain single, back home I fell in love and I got married in my senior year. That necessitated, eventually my departure from the NROTC, so the next step would have been to get a commission as an ensign, serve in the Navy for four years, and probably gets an advancement but I- I did not have that opportunity. (20.19) Interviewer: So, then what did you do next? Well after that, then I had a wife and we had children eventually and I obviously had to, I had to work. I had not finished my college degree moved to East Lansing and started studies at Michigan State University, eventually got my bachelor, I said, “you know I like this, this is what I like to do.” So, I stayed and got my master degrees also and then became a teacher. Interviewer: So, your naval career then was over with? Three years. �Interviewer: Three years. Yeah, that was it. Interviewer: You showed me some pictures, one of them was an official picture that ended up in the newspaper, how did that come about? (21.02) The- the Navy was always looking for ways to publicize its name and those pictures that would be sent to the hometown newspaper of the Midshipmen and usually would appear in the paper, I don't know if that would happen anymore because newspapers have kind of narrowed down their choice of articles. But they were very likely to appear in the local newspapers at that time. So, I probably, every midshipman had his picture taken at least once on each cruise. Interviewer: So that’s how they, that’s how it ended up… Yeah, that's right, yeah. Interviewer: You know it’s interesting, one of the things you said about not caring that much for Military life per se, and then you said towards the end of we were just talking that University life seemed to be very appealing. Yes. Interviewer: …to you. Yes, it did. Interviewer: So, what did you end up doing, you said you became a teacher, but what- what happened? Well I became, I taught at a variety of universities and ended up my academic career as a Dean at a small College in New England and suppose in a sense that's military too, gives a certain recommendation that has to be followed and certain rules that have to be followed. �(22.19) Interviewer: What did you teach? I, my teaching was primarily English, English language, and linguistics. Interviewer: Wow, okay. Yeah, and that- that- that worked up there. Interviewer: Yeah you said earlier, literary, you said you do literary, yeah. Yeah- yeah. Interviewer: Did you find at all that your military training, the ROTC period, the discipline and what not have any effect on how you have, how you went about becoming a professor, becoming a dean? I think all, every experience we have is- is, has some kind of effect on the choices that we make and how we handle those choices. So even though I was not enamored of the military life, I'm glad I had it. I look back on it I think it was good for me and I think it did help me accept a sense of responsibility and to recognize the importance of rules, and boundaries, and to, well I think succeed in life. I think it really did contribute towards that. (23.23) Interviewer: Once you decided to retire from academia, what did you do? I came back to Grand Haven my hometown, I’d consider my hometown and be, here I became the director of the Ottawa County Red Cross for nine years and then I retired from that, and on a part-time basis joined the local Historical Museum as curator of Education. Enjoyed that, and I said, “hey here's a whole new career, local history, I can get into that,” and I did, and it's been 20 years of it now and it's been wonderful. �Interviewer: Well I'm very pleased to hear you say that because as I mentioned to you and of course at the- the meeting that I spoke at, this part of the oral history, the Library of Congress Veteran’s History Project is about local history. Yeah it is. Interviewer: And so, on camera I want you to accept the challenge of encouraging other people to go through this experience. Oh, I would absolutely encourage it, and you know I have to say that what you're doing is a good thing. And I felt a little uncomfortable starting out, because you know what did I do? I didn't, II- I benefited much more than I gave, but I think I enjoyed the interview. I enjoy your questions, and you really prompted me to think and to respond. I believe that every veteran should have that opportunity and I hope that when the time comes that each veteran will be able to take advantage of it and have the same experience that I've had this morning. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_EwingW2126V Title A name given to the resource Ewing, Wallace (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-22 Description An account of the resource Wallace Ewing was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on September 11, 1932. He recalled listening to news reports on the radio about the attack on Pearl Harbor, but remained unworried about the global events of the Second World War. After graduating high school in 1950, Ewing pursued the NROTC program at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. He participated in three overseas cruises and training exercises, but was forced to abandon his training when he was told he could not be married and become a Midshipman. Ewing and his wife started a family in East Lansing, he finished his degree at Michigan State University, and he became a university English teacher and later Dean at a small college. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ewing, Wallace K. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erichsen, Wallace (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Naval Reserve Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/221c95d3022d181027a86bce0e0bcda0.mp4 938802c58df28352aaf95aa193cab707 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8a77f48ee15eec53779992fab891872a.pdf 4d5b15045a809bfb90d6546d26d41422 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: William Dudas Interview Length: (34.32) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Part 2 Interviewer: So, when you were scouting out there, how long would you stay out? We got, we’d hide in the daytime. Interviewer: Yep. And we have to watch for the flares light the whole area up just like daytime. We make sure we can get down fast enough. Interviewer: Okay but how many nights would you be out? About four nights. Interviewer: Okay. Four nights, six days, yeah. We used to have it all marked. Interviewer: And then how long a break would you get before you had to go back? No, we were on duty right away, yeah. Interviewer: Okay but you said sometimes you got to go back to the rear and recover. (1.07) Yeah, right to get our clothes repaired, get a- a new pair of pants, or something like that, underwear, and that whole thing, and socks, boy. Interviewer: Alright, now after you moved out of that area what did you do next? Well we, they up in line, we make sure that our holes, we could be deep enough cause if they broke tanks through on us, we could get down to the bottom of the holes. �Interviewer: Right, I guess I was asking after you finish, you said you were about a month near the Hurtgen Forest. Yeah, right. Interviewer: And then what did your unit do next? We- we headed for one of the areas that had big name- big name, starts with a ‘W’ and, [unintelligible] and we captured the town, the 23rd really captured the town, they then they called us in and then they sent sixteen of us a, on a trip to get the Germans out of the town of Schmitt, over twelve/ fifteen miles. And because they were gonna blow up the dams and they'd have flooded our, all the areas that the British were in and part of our outfit. The 9th would have been there, so we went through the 9th Division, the 38th and they took sixteen of us there and we went along the shore of Roer River. (2.35) Interviewer: Right it's R-O-E-R. Yeah, right. Interviewer: Roer River, yep. Yeah, right and we're, it took us two days, fifteen miles is one day's work, you know but a couple days. Had to be careful that they didn't set a trap for us. No Germans, no Germans at all. It's like somebody forgot to tell them, you know but we got the, right to the dam and the- the guy with the radio called the artillery man there, they had word for us to come back. The Germans are attacking on December 16. Interviewer: Okay so… I'll never forget the date. Interviewer: Alright. �I had to turn and that- had to turn and come back and a little bit of daylight too. Interviewer: Okay and how long did it take to get back? About two days. Interviewer: Okay. Because you get killed if- if they see out there, they get the mortars after you or a rifleman and, or- or these guys they called their extra marksman, expert marksman. Interviewer: Yeah, okay and so now you get back, now do you go back to where the 9th Division is and then move from there? (3.44) Yeah, we yeah, we- we went back exactly where we know the spot where we were at. Interviewer: Yeah. Because we had a, at- at night we'd move out and before it got daylight, we dig a hole to stay in that hole. Interviewer: Right- right, but then how long did it take you to get back to the 2nd Division? About three days? That, we're all 2nd Divisions. Interviewer: Yeah well, I know but you said you- you were sent off as a detachment. Oh okay… Interviewer: And you moved through… Sixteen guys. Interviewer: Yeah, those sixteen guys. Yeah. Interviewer: So, but then you eventually rejoin your regular company. �Yes- yes, in fact and- and we join the- the 29th, the 23rd- the 23rd regiment. Interviewer: Right. E Company and we had to stop there because they had something for us to do there. Interviewer: Right. And so, they kept sending us back further and further and that's when we got all new clothes. Interviewer: Okay. (4.38) That and not only that but the- the weather was starting to change. Snow was there and we had to get rid of the warm or warm weather clothes that we had and put the overcoats on and that whole thing and got right back up in- in there and then famous Falaise Gap, we pushed up right up against that and then made that right-hand turn to go to Brest. Interviewer: Okay, now- now you've backed us up a little bit, that was back in Normandy. Yeah. Interviewer: But we were talking about… Well Normandy is all of France, the beach area. Interviewer: Nope but that's back, but in your story, we had gotten you up along the Belgian-German border. Yes. Interviewer: And started the Battle of the Bulge. That's right. Interviewer: So that's what I kind of wanted to get to next. Okay well I- well I’m working my way there. Interviewer: Alight. �I had to add a few funny things that happened in there. Interviewer: Okay, okay. Well we got in there and the Germans had the tanks all lined up and along the roads Air Corps was doing the best job they could do was make ‘em spread out and everything. Dropping bombs on ‘em and a few of us they dropped on. And the guys with bazookas we had to make sure that they had fresh batteries, that's how you fire a pistol. (5.50) Interviewer: Okay. Not many people know. Interviewer: I didn't know that. Okay, but anyway, our guys, we had four or five guys in the town of Krinkelt, that was the first town and we had ‘em stationed there so they could shoot that bazooka and take off one track and try to move a tank with one track, all he does is make a circle, make a circle and use all his animation up. We had three of them, we got three of them on our street right there and- and the funny thing about it there were anti-tank guys that had bazookas not the guns, the fifty-nine millimeter. Interviewer: Yeah. …cannons there because the first time the Germans that see that flash and that, they knew that, where it was and- and we lost a lot of anti-tank guys. Interviewer: Yeah. Right. Interviewer: Because the anti-tank… I was trained in that too. �(6.48) Interviewer: The anti-tank and that's just a gun that's no protection for the crew. Yeah right, right, right so we- we got the Trevières is back- back behind us about six- seven miles on there Hill 192 is over here and Saint-Lô. We had too many troops in there and they were digging a lotta holes that’s all you could see. Interviewer: Okay but that's again, that's back in Normandy. Yes. Interviewer: Now- now when you were knocking off the tracks of the tank so that was in Krinkelt , that was Belgium… Interviewer: That- that- that's Battle of the Bulge. Battle of the Bulge started yeah. Interviewer: Right, okay and what else do you remember about the Battle of the Bulge? We're six days in this one house and the Germans had burned off the roof with the shells and we were down below. And- and because big boulders, the houses were made big boulders like that, the tanks would shoot through the windows with their one-on-one somebody we're gonna make inner circle around down on the street. That's as far as they got, but that all stopped all of a sudden, all they were doing, noise you’d hear you know the big cannons and that stuff back out of the way, our cannons, 105 big stuff. And we finally got a break there, but it was cold, and we lost- we lost Lieutenant Welsh he was, he thought he could get out the door and get over to the next house but didn't make it. And- and we lost a corporal there too. (8.24) Interviewer: Okay now did you have to pull out of the house and retreat? �No- no we- we were there with nothing that was it, they said, “you stay here.” Interviewer: Okay. Krinkelt. Interviewer: Yep. Two houses. Interviewer: Okay. Two towns, too many guys. Interviewer: Yeah, I guess the, in- in the history books it says we did withdraw from those villages eventually. Oh yeah we withdrew with ‘em and we went back to the town where the Germans were and all our letters and Christmas present boxes from our parents and all that stuff was spread out all over. They opened up everything, in fact I lost the watch, my mother bought me a new watch and sent it, so a German probably today has still got a watch there, I got there. Interviewer: Okay. But it- it they- they pulled us back and- and there was, they had, they figured out some way to keep enough artillery bangin’ back for ‘em so the Germans would fall back and then we could get out of the houses. Interviewer: Right. (9.31) It didn't work that way though, we had to fight our way back… Interviewer: Okay. By using the- the guns we'd had there and we were getting low on ammunition because when a guy get killed some, we take these- take his gun and his ammunition right on there and- and we �went back and lucky me, like Paris, they sent me back to another town and I got another new set of clothes on there. And then we got back up on the front line and then we started chasing Germans to the Rhine River. Interviewer: Right. Right, and that's when the Navy came up with rubber boats and- and I don't know how they ever got that far without losing you know a lot of guys or something, but they didn't. They had it figure out pretty good and at midnight we jumped in the boats and went across the river and we got over there- there were no Germans there, that was the funniest feeling you know. (10.36) Interviewer: Now is this when you're crossing the Rhine River? Rhine River, yeah. Interviewer: Okay, Oh yeah. Interviewer: So that's gonna be about in March now. Well it was still cold. Interviewer: Yeah. Still really cold, yeah. I- I get my, sometimes I’m- I'm a month ahead. Interviewer: Yeah. You know, in my thinking on there. Interviewer: The Rhine crossing started in March. Yeah in March yeah… Interviewer: In February were… Well we were there before March. �Interviewer: Yeah. The 2nd Division our objective was Czechoslovakia. Interviewer: Yeah. And when you look at the maps in my book you can see the line. Interviewer: Yeah. And we went through all those towns. Interviewer: But sort of thing where the Battle of the Bulge is December into January. Yeah right, right. Interviewer: And in January then you're attacking eastward toward Germany and toward the Rhine Yes. Interviewer: You probably get to the Rhine February maybe, so you get to one side of it. Yeah, we waited- we waited about two weeks there, digging the holes deeper and then we’d scout we go out there and look at the Rhine you know and we'd see, try to see a mile, it was about a mile and a quarter they said right where we were at. Interviewer: Yeah. And- and- and- and we had a fit because they came up there with rockets. Ten rockets in a blast. Interviewer: Right. (11.49) Zip- zip- zip one right after another, ten then they go back and load it up. We didn't want the Germans to try to find ‘em you know and here we were there. Interviewer: So, you couldn't shoot at them. The deep holes. �Interviewer: So, you wouldn't shoot at them because you didn't want them to hit you. That's right, they're right- right. Interviewer: Okay. We didn't want them to expose where we were. Interviewer: Okay. But there, a lot of houses along the river, lot a- lot a house, but we weren't allowed to do that, we didn't storm the houses. There were troops behind us that was their job to get that, we couldn't touch any of the prisoners at these small camps that we get the German- German captured guys you know and that's, we weren't allowed to touch any of those guys, you couldn't shake hands or anything we're just yell at them and because we didn't know what diseases they had. Interviewer: Right. And- and people don't realize that you know that whole thing, hooray they're here, you know. Forget it stay there don't get near me. Interviewer: So, are you passing different kinds of camps as you go forward? Yes, yup- yup. (12.58) Interviewer: So, there were prisoner of war camps? Prisoner of war camps. Interviewer: Okay. And they were used on the working things, building pill boxes and building roads and that type of thing. Interviewer: Well and the Germans also used a lot of slave laborers from other European countries. �Right. Interviewer: So, and then there were the concentration camps where they had Jews and… Concentration camps, Polish people. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Okay they're putting their hands through the barbed wire and trying to touch us, and we were… Interviewer: Don't- don't touch your microphone by the way. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. They're trying to touch us in there and- and- and they warned us every day, we got tired of it you know. We weren't gonna touch them anyway but they're so glad, they're crying and yelling and screaming you know, hooray, they're here. Interviewer: Yeah, now were you able to give them food or do they tell you not too? I don't know, we don't know because we were ahead. Interviewer: Okay. Our job was Czechoslovakia. Interviewer: Alright now as you were, so when you cross the Rhine did you cross the Rhine in boats, in rubber boats or? Rubber boats, yeah that the Navy had ‘em there. (14.02) Interviewer: Alright. Yeah and- and we came out nobody shooting at us, like something happened, shut the war off or something there, a lot of noise. Interviewer: And then… �A lot of flares. Interviewer: And now you're marching across Germany. Yeah. Interviewer: Now were you still doing your scouting missions? Yes, we were cause… Interviewer: Where you still going up ahead? And I could have cried when I had to put a- a phosphorus bomb in the cockpit of a Stuka bomber, I did it, I made it as a- a kid, found my balsa wood and all that. Interviewer: Right. And all that as a kid and I had it hang in the ceiling it was- it was probably 18 inches long and the whole thing, here I had to get into the cockpit and just drop it down in there, all the controls and it was gone, phosphorous bombs we carried ‘em on our clothes like hand grenades. Interviewer: Right, right. (14.55) The hand grenades wouldn't have helped at all, this we burned ‘em. Interviewer: So, yeah so you- so you found a German dive bomber just sitting out there? Well it, yeah, they had, this was a repair base. Interviewer: Okay. Or something like that. Interviewer: Okay. And- and we had orders, “burn ‘em”. Yeah, and- and how did they know they were there? When they’d fly over, who cares up there, they don't worry about it but on the ground, we got to, had to burn them and we did the same thing to their barracks, we burned them. �Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: Now did you meet much opposition, were the Germans… Not- not too much. Interviewer: Okay. Not too much, there's numerous towns where the guys had to get tough with youngsters that maybe were 12, 14, 15 years old, bad news. Interviewer: Yeah. And- and we put ‘em down the floor, face down on the floor, stay right there and if they even rolled over, we lay one on ‘em you know. You take your bayonet on and stick it on the end of your gun, that stopped a lot of things yeah. Interviewer: Okay. We learned those things from- from basic training, yeah. (16.03) Interviewer: Okay what were these kids doing, how were they behaving that made you have to deal with them? Well they were surprised we were there. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, this is, it was just getting near the center of well maybe 50 miles into Germany. Interviewer: Right. And then all of a sudden General Patton, George Patton sent the 3rd Armored Division over to the 2nd Division, 38th Infantry and I was one of the lucky ones and you'll see the pictures of my tank with the guys hanging on to it. �Interviewer: So, now you got to ride on a tank? Got to ride on a tank, yep. Interviewer: Alright and is that, and did you stay with the tanks and go all the way to Czechoslovakia that way? To the border. Interviewer: Okay. To the boarder. Interviewer: Alright. And then you got off and started to walk again. We were in friendly company there and the- the Czechs would tell us if there were any Germans in there, so we moved along pretty fast, in fact sometimes we had the trucks carry us 6x6 as they called. (17.06) Interviewer: Yep. They put probably 20 guys in there who were shoulder-to-shoulder inside that thing, maybe three in the seat with the driver, yeah. Interviewer: Okay and where were you when the war ended in Europe? In Pilsen. Interviewer: Okay. My dad's parents’ hometown. Interviewer: Okay. Can you believe that I had it in- in Paris there and Dudas is spelled Dudar there, Interviewer: So… D-U-D-A-R and- and that's because R’s and S’s when you write them, look the same. �Interviewer: Okay so your father's family came from Czechoslovakia. From Pilsen. Interviewer: And then they moved to France and then they moved to the U.S.? No, the- the ones in Paris moved right to the United States. Interviewer: Right. World Fair's 1889, World's Fairs. Interviewer: World’s Fair okay sure. That started it for us in 1933. (18.01) Interviewer: Okay. And I read- I rode the skyrocket- the skyrocket in Chicago. Interviewer: Yeah. Way up above the air- the area there I don't want to slip back a little bit here. Interviewer: Now that’s- that's your figuring it out yeah… Alright but if Grandma and Grandpa from Paris, they came from Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. My father's parents. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah never close to them at all, they lived in Cicero and they were all members of the group and Cicero Illinois, yeah. Interviewer: Okay, alright now when you got to Pilsen did you ever see any of the Russians? Yes, I saw ‘em trying, comin’ on the bridge and they got to there where we had it written on in English, “stop or you're gonna be shot.” That's the way we put it and they're probably some guys �did get there because they were on guard probably a hundred- football field away, anyway from that tank that was in the middle of the bridge and… (19.04) Interviewer: Okay so you saw the Russians in the distance? 4th Division finally took it over and that. Interviewer: Okay alright, now so how long did you stay in Czechoslovakia? I was there about two months. Interviewer: Okay. They had me and- and my, I'd say the whole Company G was there and in my book you see pictures of the guys, I took pictures of them because I was the first one let out, I had five campaigns in, yeah. Interviewer: Okay so your company was still there? Yeah. Interviewer: When you got this, when you were told you could go home. Go home, yeah. Interviewer: You had enough points, okay. That was a long trip, I have a couple weeks. Interviewer: Okay, tell me, I want to ask some other things. Did you see many German prisoners of war? Captured Germans, did you see them? No because we went by those people. Interviewer: Okay. We saw thousands of those German guys walking, told go the back behind us. (20.05) �Interviewer: Okay. They were prisoners really, but we were on tanks. Interviewer: Right. They’d go off to the side of the road, even walk in the gullies on the side of the road because we had the big tanks and you'll see the pictures of the tanks. Interviewer: And- and what did they look like to you? Torn, worn out. Interviewer: And were they about your age or older or younger? Well there were some areas that we- we caught some of those guys when we were in Belgium, younger 14- 15- 16 years old. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay so they have kids. Yeah. Interviewer: Did you see older men too? Not- not too many. Interviewer: Okay. Maybe around the- the- the buildup fortresses. Interviewer: Right. That they had in different places, but don't let the churches fool you, that was a motto we had, don't let the churches fool you with these snipers were up in the tower up there. And we’d get the tank up there and take the top right off the tower, yeah. You hate that you know. (21.12) �Interviewer: Yeah. And I'm kind of a religious person and I always think I'm home when I see a church, you know so. Interviewer: Okay and then how did the people in Czechoslovakia treat you? They loved us, we have a- we have our own business office in Pilsen today and I’ll give ya a story with Pilsen. Interviewer: Okay. I wanted to go to Pilsen because I heard about the office there and all the fun they were having there and I got a letter from a congressman and he says, “you can't go over this year, they're having a few problems over there.” And- and I've never been able to figure out anything and I was gonna, I wanted to go to Pilsen and see if I could find any Dudas’s there and go back to Paris that way, get a plane there to come back to the States there. I had dreams of this, go doing that. Interviewer: Okay. But it didn't work out that way and- and- and I have a lady that takes care of sending troops or us back over there and that and we're pretty good friends, and she has the agency that does that over there. She had a fit when that congressman wrote me- wrote me the letter said, “don't go this year anyway.” Interviewer: Okay what year was that? (22.38) What year was that? I'll have to see about 2001 maybe in there, 2002. Interviewer: Okay. That’s just were in ‘15 now. �Interviewer: Yeah, I don't know what was going on then, I mean other than maybe after we went into Iraq or Afghanistan. Yeah. Interviewer: Or something, they were worried about something but… Yeah right- right- right. Interviewer: Anyway, okay. Yeah, my and we were really into that war there, the 23rd is all gone now if they've all been sent home. The 9th was in Afghanistan and they're still there but they're currently gonna come home too, we have different names now. Interviewer: Right now, are there other things when you think about the time that you spent in Europe during the war, are there other memories that kind of stand out for you? (23.29) Well, being in the front, everyone’s different, everything was different, and the- and the most different thing was getting to Brest because Patton hadn't pulled up with his big group up there yet, to spread out from Marseille, and spread out along there. That big wave there and then we were from the beach and there had to make contact with them. And we still had glider troops and paratroopers, you know. Either all shot up or something and- and the pair, or the people in France would tell us about where they're at there, they’d pull ‘em in there and try to get ‘em well and the whole thing. Interviewer: Cause they were scattered all over Brittany, the area you’re going through. All- all over Brittany, the Loire that's the good word yeah. Interviewer: Because that had still been behind German lines for a long time before you got there. �Yep, long time, yeah. (24.25) Interviewer: Okay so you're rescuing those guys… Yeah right, well we heard about ‘em and- and maybe the lieutenants and the sergeants were going and look at ‘em, would, not us. We had one thing to do is look and see if Germans were right in front of us. Interviewer: Right- right. And when we didn't see ‘em, we were worried about it yeah, right. And- and- and I and on the way to Brest I lost- I lost that part of my being in the service, you know going back to the hospital and then going back to Paris, which was great. And it- it Harold has died a year ago and, in my notes, and that whole thing I got his, I have his obituary in the- in the- in the book in there. Interviewer: Okay and then one of the men in your squad wrote a book? No, he didn't write it, his son. Interviewer: His son wrote it, okay that's it. His son and- and he has a feeling just totally, how he felt, how his brother felt and his- his brothers, the, Harold's really a sharp guy, he was number one scholar. He was smarter than I was, he was a year older, but we had fun there bluffing the Germans, you know. (25.44) Interviewer: Okay. And they probably did it to us too, we didn't know, yeah. Interviewer: Yeah alright but you must've been pretty good at it because you're still alive. Yes yeah. Interviewer: Alright. �Yeah, they, up there they're watching me, you know. I got a grandma up there watching me too. Interviewer: Something. Alright now you got your orders to tell you it's time to go home. Right. Interviewer: Then what happens? Well they came in and- and there are only two of us that have five campaigns and that was 90 points. Interviewer: Right. Right there. Interviewer: Right, and so then what happens? And then they put us on a train, and we spent a week in Nürnberg, where Hitler started this whole thing here and I have a- a nut, and a bolt, and a washer, brass, that big. I took off the Eagle that some smart guy in the tank corps blew it right off with a gun, you know, but I- I was again II got a wrench from one of tankers and I went up there and I took it off and I have it, it's on display in the Granville museum. (26.51) Interviewer: Very good. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And the kids all wanted to handle it, I give it to, and I was teaching classes and- and- and second graders they can't wait to put your uniform on, the jacket and the whole thing and we do that so they get a feeling. Interviewer: Sure. Of what we're doing. �Interviewer: Alright. And some parents had a fit, but that's all the kids talk about when they go home. Interviewer: Well yeah, okay so you spend a week in Nürnberg and then do they put- put you on another train then? Another train, yeah. Interviewer: Where do you go? We waited until more soldiers came. Interviewer: Right. …up there and we were right in the center where Hitler started the whole war/works, yeah. Interviewer: Right, and then where did you ship out from? From Antwerp. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: And what kind of ship were you on? Same one, Île de France, going the other way, yeah. I was so surprised about it but boy I was sick all the way, not sick going over but coming back, yeah. Interviewer: Was the weather worse? Well not really, but I had lost so much weight. I was- I was I'll have to say 225, I was 155. (27.58) Interviewer: Okay. The eating you know wasn't all up to standards in- in that part of it. Interviewer: Yeah. �And I have 26 medicines I take every day, I take 13 in- in the morning, and 13 at night, my daughter has it in little boxes every day as mentioned there. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. Interviewer: So, and then where did you land in the U.S.? Orangeburg, I'm quite sure it's Orangeburg, yeah because they gave me a day in Paris or in New York City. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah you, they had it all set for you. Interviewer: Okay. USO? Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay so you go into Camp, probably Camp Shanks or someplace like that. That- that yeah that’s- that's a familiar name. Interviewer: Right. Well we came back fast, so, we came back fast then I went to- to Shreveport, Louisiana. Interviewer: Okay. And they said, “Dudas, you stay here.” And I- I- I- I had called my parents down where I’m at and I'm still alive you know, and they said that, “you have to talk to a couple of psychiatrists, we told him your trauma.” Was true, I wake up at night screaming, yelling my guys, you know. (29.20) Interviewer: Okay. �Right and- and so they put me in at one end of the first day there, walked into the mess hall, and they waved me down, there was a man sitting there and a- a lady soldier taking notes and the last thing he said to me, “Dudas, if you ever stopped working, you're gonna die,” and I get down to the other end there's another psychiatrist, he said the same thing, “Dudas, if you stop working you're gonna die, you work 24 hours a day.” And- and- and- and I was scared you know the whole thing I didn’t know what… Interviewer: What did they mean by that? That I keep busy. Interviewer: Okay. Keep busy. Interviewer: So… And that's- that’s what I did. And give you an example I taught school, drove a school bus, and I had athletic teams, and I worked for Johnson Park, Kent County. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: So, when you… In the park system. (30.18) Interviewer: So how long did you have to stay in Shreveport, was that just a short time or? A month. Interviewer: Okay. �They- they- they gave you small tests and that sort of thing and I had trouble with this ear, that's the one that about ten days I couldn't hear too well but I wasn't gonna go anywhere, I- I stayed with my group. Interviewer: Okay, now when did that happen to you? That happened on the way to Trevières. Interviewer: Okay so right at the beginning. Going to Brest. Interviewer: Okay to Brest, okay front of the trip here, alright so then once you got back home again what did you do? I- I got a big, my dad talked to somebody and they were building GI homes and- and I'm- and I’m a carpenter. Interviewer: Okay. I've been a carpenter ever since my grandfather let me build on the house when I was a little kid. And a good carpenter. (31.14) Interviewer: Okay now how long did you do that? And I had to finish high school. Interviewer: Okay. So, the high school was first right in here because I wanted to go to college. Interviewer: Okay. And I want to go to Notre Dame and play football, want to be an architect all because of my grandma and grandpa. Interviewer: Right. �And when the- the athletic director from Notre Dame saw me in the office there he said, “what happened to you?” When he saw me when I weighed 220 pounds as a combination end on the football team, that's- that's what I wanted do, play football for that and be with my hero Errol, I forgot the name while I was there I'll say Errol Brown All-American from Benton Harbor. Interviewer: Okay so the coach at Notre Dame had seen you before you went over? Yeah Athletic director yeah- yeah. Interviewer: Okay so they'd seen you and they thought you'd be a good recruit. Yeah, and they gave me a shot at that, I wanted to play pro football and go to the Bears. (32.18) Interviewer: Alright but now you come back and they look at you. Yeah. Interviewer: That's not gonna work. My mother hardly recognized me. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: So, where did… Six foot and thin. Interviewer: Yeah, so, where did you go to college? Western. Interviewer: Okay. I went there, my lady friend, she was going there so we went there, and she was in the home ec department and I was in Destler's art department. Interviewer: Okay. �Four years there and I worked for, there, never stopped working, I didn't stop there and- and Superman and Dr. Weber, the history department, I had to go in there and check out, I was supposed to learn something in history and he said, “can you cut wood, trim steel, anything like that?” I said, “I sure can.” He said, “you're gonna work.” And my second week in college I had a solid job there, yeah. I worked the night shift till 9:00- 10:00 o'clock and I still had to study, yeah. (33.23) Interviewer: And so then when you graduated you went right to your high school job or the, you went to Grandville then? Yeah, I came right to Grandville and we sign our contracts a year before we graduated, we were going right there. Interviewer: Okay, and how long did you teach in Granville? 35 years. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright now when you think back to the time that you spent in the service, how do you think that affected you? Or what did you take out of it? Well, the two psychologists said, “you ever stop working you're gonna die,” and it certainly he was right, and he told the same thing to Harold, and a- a- a guy that you would appreciate, he was smooth as glass. Interviewer: Alright now do you think that you learned, yeah, do you think you- you learned anything from being in the army? Yes- yes you get a- a- a broader view of the population, yeah. �(34.19) Interviewer: Alright. Right. Interviewer: Alright well I just like to thank you for coming in and telling your story today. Right. Interviewer: Alright, that’ll do it. I haven't told this in a long time. Interviewer: Alright. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_DudasW1896V2 Title A name given to the resource Dudas, William (2 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-05 Description An account of the resource William Dudas was born in Sawyer, MI, just outside of Benton Harbor, in 1924. Dudas enlisted in the Army on July 29, 1943, shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He was selected for scout training and trained at Camp Walters in Texas. Dudas spent six months training in Cardiff, Wales, preparing for the D-Day invasion and landed on Omaha beach a day or two after the first wave, joining his unit on its way to Trevieres, France. Dudas' unit participated in the Battle at Hill 192 and advanced in a rapid push to Brest where he injured his leg during the advance and was sidelined for four weeks before rejoining his unit in Paris. His unit also participated in combat in the Hurtgen Forest, Battle of the Bulge, acrossing the Rhine River, and advancing into Czechoslovakia. After the war, he left the service and attended Western Michigan University to became a high school teacher. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dudas, William L. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8225a4cc0399608f1fd7fe98c8528ae4.mp4 88135c6d1ca4b11d19a6c50df98a3b7e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9990645011b804105d39bda940d2abe9.pdf 14b8cff48344b1b7ab918a36554dd9c2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: William Dudas Interview Length: (44:28) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're talking today with Bill Dudas of Jenison, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now Bill, can you begin with some background on yourself to begin with, where and when were you born? I was born in Sawyer, Michigan outside of Benton Harbor and… Interviewer: What year? In 1924. Interviewer: Okay now did you grow up there? Yeah, yes until I was 16 and I- I signed up for the, my mother signed the slip for me to get in thein the army when I was 16 and my father had a fit. I remember hollering and hollering about that. Interviewer: Now the rule at that point was that you had to be seventeen. Had to be seventeen but it was gettin’ up there on September 10th is my birthdate and it- it seemed to everything kind of fell into place and then I met my uncle who was in World War I and he said, “if you do anything, get in the artillery.” So, I did I just used the word artillery. (1:40) Interviewer: Okay now let's back up a little bit, while you were living in Sawyer what did your family do for a living? I lived with my grandparents. Interviewer: Okay. �And my grandfather was an architect and contractor from 1889 to 1933 on the World Affairs. Came from Paris, France, he came from Paris, France married my grandma and she was from Paris, France also. And- and that was on, in Sawyer, Michigan on our great Lake Michigan and there's complications of here because there's years in that on room school I went to and I enjoyed it very much. And kind of freedom that's what I had there, and I had one sister and two brothers with my regular family. And my grandma asked if I could come and stay with them and that's what I did. (2:51) Interviewer: Okay and how old were you when you went to live with them? Four. Interviewer: Okay was this just because it was… Some family tension. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. There, as you'll see in my history book. Interviewer: Alright so basically, you're pretty much brought up by your grandmother then? Just for three years. Interviewer: Three years. And then she passed away. Interviewer: Okay and then did you go back to your mother at that point? Yes, I went back to my mother and father, oh yeah. Interviewer: Alright and then you said you, and now so when did you actually enlist in the army? �In July 29th of- of 1943. Interviewer: Okay. (3:35) Lots of things happen and that till they got off to that. Interviewer: Right, now do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? Yes, I heard, my father heard about it and he called me, and he called us all there. And- and then the phone rang, and the newspaper that I delivered paper for said that they're driving extra papers. That’s what it said on the front “extras!” Chicago, Detroit,” and the News Palladium from Benton Harbor. St. Joe, the twin sister, didn't have a paper yet. Interviewer: Okay so you have to go out there and start selling extras or just delivering them? Yes, yeah- yeah Sunday night we had the papers and we were taking- taking our route, our paper route and you're running up and down the street yelling “extra, extra.” Interviewer: Yeah, the kind of thing we used to see in a lot of old movies... Yes, you’re right. Interviewer: With the paper boy running around. You’re right. Interviewer: Today people don't know what that is. Yeah that’s true, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now then once you, now how did life change at home before you joined the Army? I mean was there rationing going on or that kind of thing? (4:49) �I was an athlete starting from fourth grade, Benton Harbor's noted all over Michigan as an athletic- athletic plant and I started in the fourth grade, running and jumping, shooting baskets, and all that kind of stuff. And went right into the junior high and we had programs in basketball, and some football, and we played football by ourselves and that kind of thing. Interviewer: Okay. Then the basketball was Saturday morning stuff, and, in our neighborhood, we had running meets and all that kind of stuff. Interviewer: Okay now after Pearl Harbor After Pearl Harbor… Interviewer: When you go back to school you at that point, how were things different? How did things change in your community after Pearl Harbor? (5:39) Well the things that happen, they asked for people to join the Army, or Navy, or Air Force, Marines. And I- I don’t, keep saying the Marines will be next to us all the time you know, because we were number one division. And it- it had the- the generals and that that they were all aware of it and then we moved from Texas. Interviewer: Okay. You're- you're kind of jumping, you're- you’re going ahead a little bit, let us back up. Okay. Interviewer: I'm asking about life before you enter the army, so in 1942 and you're still in school at that point. Yeah 1943. Interviewer: Yeah but before you join. �Yeah. Interviewer: What were things like then? What were things like at home in Benton Harbor after the war starts? (6:36) We were patriotic people and as we were in the school the teachers taught, talked to us that way. And if you narrow it down real quick my fifth and sixth grade teacher had a brother in the service, in Alaska building the highway. And I was interested in it and she used to read every letter he wrote back, and then we would write, and then she'd write back to him. And so, the questions were answering back and forth there. And when I got to be 50 years old, I went Alaska. And on the, all the way on the road from the start to the finish. Interviewer: Now okay now did you want to get into the Army as soon as you could? Yes. Interviewer: Okay Yes. Interviewer: And that's why your mother signs. My uncle wanted me in as fast he could, yeah. Interviewer: Right, so you told us, so your mother signed for you. Yes. Interviewer: And you asked to go into the artillery. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright now where did you report to? (7:39) Detroit. �Interviewer: Okay and what happened there? And in Detroit they gave you shots and examined you real close and they were looking for people that were in good- good body shape, good thing. Could run fast, could jump, and the whole thing and this is special training at Camp Wolters, Texas. Interviewer: Okay how did… That’s where I ended up. Interviewer: Okay, how did you get to Camp Wolters, Texas? By train. Interviewer: And what do you remember… There’s no planes in those days. Interviewer: Yeah- yeah, what do you remember about that train ride? That it was a long boring ride to get to Texas. Mineral Wells, Texas they dropped us off there. Interviewer: Okay. Camp Wolters, beautiful camp. Interviewer: Alright. And that's when my life changed, when five of the officer- officers and enlisted men were training us, they were captured by the Japanese in the Philippine Islands. And they escaped, the whole company did, that, we're talking about a thousand people, you know. And- and we had five of them that were training us, and we could run faster, jump higher than they could. We clean ‘em up on their, in the course that we had out there that you had to have instruction on. (9:02) Interviewer: Alright, okay now was this your- your basic training? Basic training. �Interviewer: Okay. 21 weeks. Interviewer: Alright and did the guys, did these instructors, did they tell you how they escaped or what happened to them? No not really. Interviewer: Okay. We- we were so interested in what they were doing for us right there. And- and it kept us alive, kept me alive, I lost all my friends that were there. Interviewer: Now we're there when you started training down there did you know what division you were going to be in? No. Interviewer: Okay so this is just basic for everybody. Yeah basic. Interviewer: Okay and how much emphasis did they put on discipline? All- all of it, solid your non comms, sergeants, corporals, and all of that and be sure you salute all the officers yeah. Interviewer: Now what happened when you did something wrong? Oh I never did anything wrong, I went along what they had because they were gonna keep me alive. Interviewer: Alright. Right. Interviewer: Now did- did some of the other men have more trouble? �(10:05) Yes, oh yes, they- they’re the people that had to get up at four o'clock in the morning for KP service. Anybody goofing around with that whole thing and- and we were kept busy. We had our own football team, our own softball team, right there on the campgrounds. And so, in order to be in- in those things you had to behave yourself and mind the rules. Interviewer: Okay. When they said you're gonna trot for half a mile, well you trotted that. If you didn't, you were in trouble yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And obstacle courses were big in our time, big. I had a big one at our high school built by the athletic director who was the ex- army guy and he's too old to get in now, but he said they have to have this, boy that was the circus for us. Interviewer: Alright now was this, how long did the basic training last? 21 weeks. Interviewer: Okay so that's a long… (11:02) Back on the train and over to New York, and not too far from we could see the Statue of Liberty, and then they shipped us off to En- to En, Wales, really. Interviewer: Now at this point had you been assigned to your unit yet? No. Interviewer: So, you still don't know what, who you're gonna be… Right. More training on the beaches in- in Wales in that area. �Interviewer: Okay because I guess the official history of the division indicates that they formed up in the US. Yes. Interviewer: And then they went over to England and did more training, but did you join them when they… First was Ireland. Interviewer: Right, yeah okay. That was one group and we went to Wales. Interviewer: Right. Cardiff, Wales. Interviewer: Okay. And- and just a great time- a great time. Went British, some British guys were pros at that because they just got out of Dunkirk. Interviewer: Alright so… And I say that nobody knows what I mean by that. Interviewer: Well we do. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright, but they were, that was back in 1940. When did you arrive in Wales? (12:07) In ’44. Interviewer: Okay and about… January of ’44. Interviewer: Alright so the 2nd Division is already in Britain by that time. �They were, Ireland. Interviewer: Yeah, they were Ireland, okay so you're coming, you're still just a replacement. Tell me about the trip across the ocean. It was- it was a beautiful ship; Île de France and it was capacity. Loaded in there four high in the bunks down low and every day we'd go up on top for the, in case of emergency, a torpedo might get at us or something like that. Told us what we had to do and- and the- the rope ladders were thrown overboard and, but we didn't go down the rope ladders, they just said, “there they are.” You have to go down there and get off the ship by the rope ladder. Interviewer: Now was this a converted ocean liner? Yes. Interviewer: Passenger ship? Yes, passenger, a beautiful ship and I'll have to say twenty thousand. (13.10) Interviewer: Okay, and did you sail by yourself? Yes, outrun we could outrun any problem like that, but there was, the Navy was around not too far from us all the time. Interviewer: Okay, so you had escorts of some kind. Yes, oh yeah and we went Scotland first and then we got a train from Scotland and- and guys went in different directions and I went to Wales. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, now how long did you spend in Cardiff? Cardiff? Six months. �Interviewer: Okay. Almost to the day. Interviewer: Now how did the civilians treat the American soldiers? Great, great the restaurants and that their fish and chips, that kind of thing, yeah. And people were great- great and they appreciated us and- and I was of course one of the lucky ones that got to camp way, a long ways from where the Germans were bombing but we could hear it, we could hear it. At night, every single night the Germans would fly over, we'd fire up, make noise andand the bombs going off. That just conditioned us for what we expected on D-Day. (14.19) Interviewer: Right now, what kind of training were you getting by this time? Infantry. Interviewer: Okay. Scouts. Interviewer: Okay, explain a little bit what is a scout? And what do they do? Okay, we would leave at night, go across the line back of the enemy, and then during daytime we'd hide in the fields, and when it got dark again, we started to move around. And we had an artillery observer with us that told his division, the artillery division what we were looking for; the mortar groups, the German mortars, and the German artillery, and that's how far sometimes ten/ fifteen miles behind German lines. Interviewer: Okay. And- and we were trained well in- in Camp Wolters, Texas. How to sneak around there, cops and robbers in the neighborhood, yeah. (15.14) �Interviewer: Okay. Cowboys and Indians. Interviewer: Alright now when you enlisted you had asked to be in the artillery… Artillery, right. Interviewer: But now it sounds like you're training to be in the infantry. They took us, the guys that could run the fastest, can jump the highest, and on the obstacle courses, and- and when you want to, you'd have a race on Saturday or Sundays and make five or ten dollars. A guy would think he was gonna beat me or beat one of us, there in no way. Interviewer: Okay. Because I was in great condition when I went in the service because I trained to be a football player in Benton Harbor. Interviewer: Okay, so because of your athletic ability they took you out and they made you a scout? Yeah, oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Oh yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And we would learn all kinds of things in that type of atmosphere, yeah. (16.10) Interviewer: Okay now at what point do you get assigned to your unit? Oh, at D-day. Interviewer: So, you didn't join the division until D-day? �No, until D, after D-day and- and- and I, the picture show I came up with the- the one of the regiments, there's the 9th Regiment and the 23rd Regiment and- and 38th Regiment, that's my regiment. I'm very proud of it all the way. Interviewer: Okay, so when did you meet, and then which company did you join? G Company, 2nd battalion G company. Interviewer: Alright and so when did you meet those men? I- I met ‘em on the way to Trevières, it was about 14 [actually 4] miles from the beach. Interviewer: Okay so… We were replacement people. Interviewer: Aha okay, so how did they, so- so basically talk about the, that time, so when did you leave Cardiff? Was that? (17.14) We left it for- for D-Day. Interviewer: But so, on D-Day? Not the, oh no. Interviewer: Or after D-Day or before? After D-Day, we were- we were in a boat on D-Day. Interviewer: Okay. A- a- a big liner, with you know three or four thousand people, guys on there. Interviewer: Okay was that a liner or was that a… All well trained people. Interviewer: Was that a troop transport ship now? Yeah, yeah. �Interviewer: Okay, now did it have landing craft to land you with or? I think they followed us, I, cause all they had to do is come from Southampton. You could see France in a hurry there, when you got out there on the North Sea. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. Interviewer: Or the English Channel any way. A lot of noise because over back behind us coming out of Britain are big battleships firing guns that can cover many, 20 miles out. And those, the shells were going over the top of us and they were trying to clean off the beaches. The Germans had prepared all these rigs with railroad ties and all kinds of tracks in there. (18.15) Interviewer: Okay. And you, we used that to protect us from the machine guns up on top of the hill. Interviewer: Alright, now as you, so when, on what day did you land on the beach? On- on D-day that was December 6th/ 7th. December, or June 6th Interviewer: But June 6 was D-Day, but did you actually land on D-Day? No, it was 7th or 8th right in there. Interviewer: Yeah, right, I think… With so much confusion, I never can get it straightened out. I think in my books you'll be able to figure it out there. Interviewer: Okay, now do you remember, did you spend, you know more than one night on the ship waiting to land or just one? Yes, yes. �Interviewer: Yeah, so, you may have landed… The 8th, I think it’s the 8th when we- we came in there. Interviewer: Okay and then when it's time for you to land… Land. Interviewer: How does that work? Worked with the rope and the net that they threw overboard, and you climbed down there and got in the landing craft. And- and of course the landing crafts are famous, in our war and some were blown right out of the water with maybe 40- 50 guys on it and it was quite a serious thing and then when it dropped down, out you went, right up to your shoulders in water. (19.31) Interviewer: Okay so they drop you out that far? Yep- yep not that far, sand bars and all that stuff on the ocean. Interviewer: Okay. And the water was cold it's all I know. And you were, carried our rifles up on top, I had a sub Thompson. Interviewer: So, a submachine gun? Yeah submachine gun, yeah. Interviewer: How much did, how much were you carrying? What kinds of things did you carry with you when you landed? Blanket and rain[?] and half, your half of a tent cause it take two guys to cover up a foxhole with a tent. Interviewer: Right. Over the top you know. �Interviewer: Okay and what else did you carry? A shovel and a bayonet and- and that's a do or die tool. Interviewer: Now were you bringing rations and food? Yes, the yeah, the K-rations, the C's were much later in there. And- and- and four or five packs of that and I didn't smoke, and I didn't drink, so I didn't have to worry about that part of the whole thing. I had one thing in mind, get ashore and get in the hole. (20.39) Interviewer: Okay so when you landed was there any firing or was it quiet? Oh no, there was so much noise, to this day it's too much noise. Interviewer: Okay. I was in the service for 28 months and I think for 20 months there's nothing but that noise, the big guns and that. Interviewer: Okay but the Germans weren't shooting at you? Yes, they were. Interviewer: There were still Germans shooting at the beach? Germans right there- right there, we had to get them off the beach. Interviewer: Okay. Had to get them off all the way to Trevières, that was 14 miles up there and a- a couple other small towns in the way. Interviewer: Right, but I was asking on the actual landing beach itself because you landed on Omaha Beach. Omaha. �Interviewer: And where there still any Germans on Omaha Beach or were they behind there? They were behind. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. (21.27) The, we came, once we got to the beach, we could see the- the- the fortresses that they had there, six to eight foot thick. Interviewer: Yep. Then the big guns, all they do is blow big chunks of cement out, yeah. But the soldiers were still there and a lot of hid out in the trenches, you never knew where anything was until you walked right up on top of it. Interviewer: Okay. And they were prepared for us on there. Interviewer: Alright. We used a lot of hand grenades. Interviewer: Okay. Throw ‘em over to hill. Interviewer: So, you're still helping clear out the Germans from that area. Yeah, you're right and that 14-mile loop across there like this. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay now Trevières is only village that's inland, it's not, it's only a couple of miles inland. �Yeah right. Interviewer: It’s not too far, but so that's where you headed? Yeah that's where we're, that was our goal. Interviewer: Okay now did you join your company outside of the town or in it? Yes, I was all of a sudden, I was in the 23rd Regiment. Interviewer: Okay. And we didn't know, when I got up there, I was put in the 38th which I'm very proud of today, yeah. And officers were well-trained. And- and Sergeant Blackmore, he watched every one of us, and he'd see anything wrong and he grabbed you right by your gear and pull you down said, “now what did I tell you?” you know that kind of a guy, and he kept us alive, he kept us alive. (22.56) Interviewer: Okay now do you start doing scouting work right away? Right away. Interviewer: Okay. Right away, they- they- they assigned us to that space going up there. And- and our work was done at night so we could get behind them and- and- and it worked out pretty good and according to the five guys that trained us in camp, they did some tricks we didn't even know they were there, they were there. And those are the things that we carried from the- from the basic training and then the extra training we stay in the six months in Cardiff Wales. Interviewer: Right. Yeah Swansea really. (23.40) �Interviewer: Now when you, do you remember the first time you went out as a scout? The first time you did a scouting. Facin’ Germans? Interviewer: Yeah Okay yes, I remember real well. Interviewer: Okay well what happened? Yeah, we were told there and- and- and Harold was my buddy, he was always first scout, and he was 30- 40 feet, a foot ahead of us there and- and I was down, back there and- and we were spread out 30- 40 foot. Cause one bullet could knock off five or six guys, you know one- one machine gun is so rapid, coming right at you. And- and we had to be careful we didn't get into where- where they’d rap the ground, they get the ground and then raised up there and another gun would take over after that. They had all kinds of drills and we had to solve those before they bring up the rest of the group. Interviewer: Right. In there. (24.40) Interviewer: Okay, now what kind of country were you in? In with s. the famous hedgerows. Interviewer: Okay. That was started 2,000 years before that by the Romans, so we got the history of that what we had, and they were from four-foot-high to twelve foot high. And that they when they plowed their fields, they’d take the big stones out, throw them on the side on their property lines and everywhere was a hedgerow and the Germans had ‘em all spotted, probably had ‘em by number. �And so, they’d, all they had to do is look at their map and- and it's almost wipe us out there, you know they're that quick, and our job was to get to those guys that were with the mortars and the artillery. Interviewer: Right, okay so tell me about that first mission out there, I was asking your first time out there as a scout, you said you were spread out, Harold was your first scout. Yeah, right Harold. Interviewer: Now what actually happened then? (25.35) We went out like that and all of a sudden, they stop us, there are snipers there in the woods. They’re in the trees and you got to get them out of there. Interviewer: Okay. And so that's what we worked on, the cops and robbers thing we did as kids, you know. Interviewer: Yeah, so… And they were in the tree and I have a rifle, Italian rifle, sniper's rifle. And how it got there, I don't know but it had a telescope on it and the whole thing, and I found it there. Interviewer: Okay. Because we dropped the guy out of the tree and I got his rifle, and here I am carrying a sub Thompson and that rifle, I didn’t have any bullets for the rifle. Anyway, I did mail it home when we did stop about 10 days more in there, but we were able to put the things we found, the revolvers and- and the rifles and little things from the soldiers that we overrun. Interviewer: Right, okay now how would you kind of make your way forward if you're trying to go out on one of these missions and you’re in the hedgerow country how did you go about doing that? �(26.46) We had a tank, the tanks got up there and- and they tried to go up the banks, some of them were too high and they go tumbling down the other side, but they're all guns firing, all the time we’re there. So, we're behind tanks. Interviewer: Well I was asking you about when you're a scout. Yeah right. Interviewer: You didn’t have any tanks with you when you're a scout right? Right, but they like to have us out ahead of them. Interviewer: Right. And- and- and they, some of the new officers, in my books you'll find that a number of officers that we lost. There were people, they said, “cause he's an officer he had to be up there in front.” No, you gotta be more than that, you have to be, really exercise that program, yeah. And we cried like the rest of the guys when we lose an officer or one of our sergeants and that the whole thing. We were sick about it, it made us mad that's what it is, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now I'm basically I'm just trying to sort of picture a little bit sort of what you're doing, or in the time that you're in Normandy, I mean you start at Trevières. Now did they capture that town after you got there, or had they captured it already? They- they had captured it before we got there. (28.02) Interviewer: Okay, alright. So, we were 3rd Battalion. Interviewer: Right. The 23rd and the 9th rough outfit. �Interviewer: Okay. They thought they were rough okay, but they- they- they got there and- and we didn't care who, if there were any Germans in the town because the people who live there would tell us where they where at. And the Germans knew that so they got out of the towns as fast as they could. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, and you build up a friendship with those people and I have a couple letters from the high school it was in Trevières. Interviewer: Okay. And the things like that bring back other great stories, you know. Interviewer: Okay so when you're moving during the day would you ride on tanks and go forward? Not really. Interviewer: Okay. Not really, no, tanks never happened to us ‘till we cross the Rhine River. Interviewer: Alright because I was trying to sort of sort out what was happening in Normandy back at the beginning. Yeah. Interviewer: Now the division moves inland towards Saint-Lô and… Saint-Lô and Trevières. Interviewer: Yeah, after Trevières. In a line there. Interviewer: Well and then Saint-Lô is farther inland. Yes right. �(29.11) Interviewer: Okay now the division fought a battle at a place called Hill 192. That's- that’s what I was gonna just tell ya… Interviewer: Okay. The 9th and the 23rd went in there and beat ‘em up pretty good but they lost- they lost it. And they pulled up my outfit in there, the 38th and our luck, the Germans scampered out of there. They dropped back into Saint-Lô, because they were, we had to get that hill because they were using it for their artillery Scouts. And in that hole works and they had built big towers on hill 90- 192 in there and I happen to be one of lucky guys to get there first, you know. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: So, after you got there, what happened next? We reformed- reformed into our own groups. Interviewer: Right. And we picked up the artillery guys and we down, go out and locate the 81 mortars, they’re the bad news to us and the 88 artillery and they were doubly bad news and- and find them right away and they’d radio back and- and the radios in that time was not a cell phone, it was a pack on the back of a guy that carried a pistol, that's the only defense that guy had. But the- the officers that were there from the artillery were giving ‘em all the places that- that we thought or maybe they were, they were clever about moving around. (30.48) Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. �Interviewer: Now would the Germans try to find you? Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. They know, well the Germans knew everything we did. We just had more guys, more people, and after a while, more tanks. Right and that's where the, when I say ‘tanks,’ they had power blades on some of ‘em. Interviewer: Right. They just knocked the wall, hole in the wall and bust through there and start firing a whole thing, let us go through then, walking. Interviewer: So that's the… …running across the field. Interviewer: They were doing that at the end of July when they had the breakout… Yes. Interviewer: …from Normandy and take Saint- Lô You’re right, break out of Germany. Interviewer: Okay, now while you were in Normandy still, before the breakout did you manage to find any German batteries or guns? Yes. Interviewer: That your people knocked out? Right, well we found them and located ‘em so that the artillery observers… Interviewer: Right. …could radio back with a guy with a big pack on his back, and, the, we had to protect him. If the Germans tried to get our radio. �Interviewer: Right. That would, half of their battle’s over with then, they, but there were a lot of things like that and I refer to cowboys and Indians and all- all the other stuff, it’s the little tricks like that that you learn, kick the can. (32.12) Interviewer: Now how many men would be together if you're going out scouting, how many of you would there be? Ten to sixteen. Interviewer: Okay. That's almost the whole squad, but you don't want a squad to get wiped out because that's part of a, the drawing, you know, map. Interviewer: Right. And- and- and we had to report back right away if we're losing guys, so they'd forced some guys up, come up there in the middle of the night. And I always have the famous story there, “halt,” you know, “what do you mean halt?” “Halt,” and- and so the guy would say, “Kellogg's,” and you better know the answer. Do you know the answer to that? Interviewer: I’d go with cornflakes. That's right. Interviewer: American culture. That’s a simple one. Interviewer: Yeah. But we had stiffer ones the further out we got into the, into France. �Interviewer: Okay now if somebody did get hit, if you took any casualties what would you do with them? “Medic,” you yell “medic.” Interviewer: Well but if you're out on a patrol, did you have a medic who would be in your squad. Yeah, right yeah, one of the sixteen guys sometimes, one of the seventeen guys, but he just carried the bandages you know. (33.24) Interviewer: Yeah, but then what would you, what could you do? I mean if one of your men is wounded and you're behind enemy lines. Yeah right. Interviewer: Do you carry him out? What do you do? Well yeah, we carry him out. We'd get him out in the, at night. We get, we had to go through the line to get- get back with our company through the German, had to go back through the German and they knew we were out there somewhere, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And just say they had every hedgerow was numbered in their- their life. Interviewer: Right, okay now once the breakout, I guess one of the things that happened at Saint-Lô was at one point we sent large numbers of heavy bombers. Yes 2000. Interviewer: Yeah and did- did you hear any of that or see any of that? �I laid in the hole watching them going by, they’re wing to wing. And- and all we were doing is cheering, there was no, the only noise we could hear was the antiaircraft from the Germans, yeah, but they really combed Saint-Lô out. Interviewer: Yeah, now did you go through the town? No. Interviewer: Okay, you went around? We went to Breat, we were going to Brest. Interviewer: But to get to Brest, you had to get there somehow. (34.32) Yeah, the crossroads, that was a battle. Now they had a lake and a crossroads in French property and another small time in St. Mary's something like that, that we had to run right through the town and let the guys behind us get the Germans out of ‘em, we had to get in deep into France. Interviewer: Right. As deep as we could so we can get to, meet up with the 4th Division to get to Brest. Interviewer: Right. The submarine port and that was really protected, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now how, so Brest is all the way out at the end of Brittany. Yes. Interviewer: So that's a good ways from Normandy, heading west. Right. Interviewer: Now what happened to you during that advance? That's where I jumped over and turned this foot to ankle here and fractured now in here in the front part here. �Interviewer: Okay so you- you managed to break your ankle while chasing the Germans? Yeah, yeah, fractured really. Interviewer: So not a full brake? Everything was stretched because I had a pack on and I weighed 200 pounds- 220 pounds and great shape, great shape, yeah. (35.41) Interviewer: Okay, so once you hurt your ankle, what did they do with you? They- they pulled me out, it hurt, it really hurt. And- and I- and I thought it was broken at first, so I'm crawling around my hands and knees for a while to- to let people know that there's an open space where I was out there. And the, course we were Scouts, the whole group were Scouts and we were all different Scouts, and they, the medic looked at it and he said, “you have to go back to the aid center,” and so, I crawled back to the aid center and then the following day they put me on a- a big airplane and took me back to the hospital. Interviewer: Okay and where was the hospital? In, of course in England. Interviewer: Okay. That's where they, the, that big plane landed there with a lot of P-38s my favorite airplane, the twin Woolmer. And they put us on the plane, we're all laying down on there and the plane took off and landed on the other side, real quick trip across that there. (36.51) Interviewer: Right. And the hospital people waiting for us there and- and they had crude x-rays in those days and they just decided that they would have to build a frame for my foot on there cause they couldn't �see if it was broken down lower in the foot part of it, that- that foot. And might have taken the rest of my life to have a broken bone there and they couldn't handle it, yeah. Interviewer: So how long did you stay in the hospital? Four weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Four weeks, really three weeks and I had one week of freedom. Met a lot of great people. Interviewer: So, what did you, so could you leave the hospital? Yes, leave the private, the grounds in fact, leave the grounds there, we’d go into town and- and it was, its Swansea there. Interviewer: Okay, so, you're back kind of on your home turf again. (37.45) Back- back there and on and- and met some guys that had about the same thing I had in there. And one guy was from the 1st Division and they were always bumping up against us, we get twisted around sometime, you guys get out of here you know, we're here, you know Interviewer: That's right. But that's the way it was because France is really a small country, everything is small. Interviewer: Well and initially, well 1st Division went on Omaha Beach ahead of you. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: And so, they were right in that same beachhead area…. Yeah, right. Interviewer: …where you’re coming out too and several- several other times later on they were right next to you. �Right next to you and the paratroopers, we were still picking up paratroopers along. That's where the joke came with ‘Kellogg's’ and the guys, he, if he'd say ‘Bran Flakes’ we'd let I'm in and watch him. Interviewer: Alright. But it was cornflakes, that was the main drop off on there. And of course, they had their own codes to. Interviewer: Sure. They, guys in the glider troops and that seemed to be, we were in that in the flatlands in there, but they had to land in there where all these little, high hedgerows were at there. And a lot of them would bury their nose of that plane right there, into the- the end of that bank that was there. (38.59) Interviewer: Right, okay now when did you go back to France? I, and I went back to- to, after four weeks there and I went back to Paris. Interviewer: Okay. I didn't know my outfit was there, they just dropped me off and then they told me that the 2nd battalion of Company G who was there. I thought it was great, you know so that's when I called my two grandparents there, great-great grandparents. Interviewer: Okay. And the first one/ person I called was the Bulhoures [?] and they were tickled to death they couldn't think you know, and they were gonna try to come to us. It's pretty hard- hard to do that because we took over all the hotels there. Interviewer: Right. (39.45) �We were there to guard trains from Paris, France to the front line of- of, in Belgium. Interviewer: Right so is this September when you get back? Or is it September or? Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright and so you could use the French phone system to call people? Was that how you did it? Right, well I, the- the- the lady and the man were in the hotel, running the hotel there. Interviewer: Okay. …they took care of that part, so I got the Deduc [?] Castle, my grandma's there and she said, “you know if the Germans come back here, they're gonna kill us cause we're talking to you.” And I said, “we're here and nobody gonna kill you.” Interviewer: Right. “We're here,” and- and my grandfather said, he's a, when I went back to the United States a year later, “they're a bunch of rummies over there on your grandma's side.” Interviewer: Alright. Anyway, it was great, it was great. Interviewer: And when you were in Paris… Paris. Interviewer: …did you get time to just go see the city or? (40.45) Yes, I got pictures of me hugging the big part of the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triomphe. The both of them stand out. �Interviewer: Yep. And I heard about them from my grandparents before I ever thought of a war, you know. Interviewer: Now when you were a kid did you learn any French? Yes, I took French in junior high. Interviewer: Okay. Our junior high was the 9th grade, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And I had some of the words down pretty good. Interviewer: Okay but did your grandparents ever speak French at home? Yes, when the- the storms were bad, we were in Lake Michigan, they would talk in French andand I, and the maid never knew it either, and I never knew how to speak French either. Interviewer: Alright, okay so how long did you stay in Paris? Two weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, I had two trips to the- to the front lines. Interviewer: Okay. Got back in the noise again. Interviewer: Alright and so where was your division when you rejoined them, what, where was the division now? We- we were up in Belgium. Interviewer: Okay. (41.47) �And- and pretty close to the big force there, Hurtgen Forestand we took somebody's place that was there, and we were only gonna be there a short time, but it ended up be almost a month. Interviewer: Alright. And so, we deluxed our holes in the ground. Interviewer: Okay, now when you were there were you attacking or were you just holding your position? Holding ground. Interviewer: Okay. We had to wait for the British to come up on our left over there and wait for the 4th Arm- 4th Division and a little bit of something in the 1st Division, I never did figure that one out. Interviewer: Okay so you weren't attacking in the Hürtgen Forest, you were just near it. No, holding. Interviewer: Yeah, you were holding. Holding. Interviewer: Okay, now did the Germans bother you while you were there? Yes, they did, they learned how to make bom- their bombs. They'd explode above the trees andand knock all the snow down and lee- leaves, the limbs, on- on that. And so, we’d take all the extra stuff that fell down after we survived, some guys didn't, they got caught with a shrapnel. Interviewer: Right. A lot of shrapnel come eighty- eights, yeah. And- and sometimes we said that they shoot right directly into the force, right at the trees and that stuff there. And our safest place was facing the Germans and- and behind the tree, grab a hold and wrap your arms around a tree, like our pine forest that we have in Michigan for the CCC's. �(43.19) Interviewer: Yep. The same way. And- and the forests were big time money for those people. Interviewer: Now were you doing scouting work then? Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Oh yeah. Interviewer: And so… We go back when we didn't have a job to do, we go back maybe a mile and- and- and pull ourselves together again because we were living out there on nothing but K-rations. Interviewer: Right. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay, now how close did you get to getting caught? Did I? Only one bullets to hit, one of the Germans ran out of bullets and I ran out, I got carted here bullets too. Interviewer: Okay but did you ever, do they ever get close to capturing you? Not, no they were dead. Interviewer: Okay. They ever dead. Interviewer: Okay, so basically you didn't really have any close calls? Oh- oh yeah, you make a mistake some time on there, but a guy will back you up on, one of your buddies will back you up on that if you didn't see ‘em. And- and we're talking about Scouts, our job was scouting so there was a lot of distance between us. �Interviewer: Yep. And they could tell us you know, and a hand signals helped, yeah. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_DudasW1896V1 Title A name given to the resource Dudas, William (1 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-05 Description An account of the resource William Dudas was born in Sawyer, MI, just outside of Benton Harbor, in 1924. Dudas enlisted in the Army on July 29, 1943, shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He was selected for scout training and trained at Camp Walters in Texas. Dudas spent six months training in Cardiff, Wales, preparing for the D-Day invasion and landed on Omaha beach a day or two after the first wave, joining his unit on its way to Trevieres, France. Dudas' unit participated in the Battle at Hill 192 and advanced in a rapid push to Brest where he injured his leg during the advance and was sidelined for four weeks before rejoining his unit in Paris. His unit also participated in combat in the Hurtgen Forest, Battle of the Bulge, acrossing the Rhine River, and advancing into Czechoslovakia. After the war, he left the service and attended Western Michigan University to became a high school teacher. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dudas, William L. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/046f9ac8aaffcc434cf53d52a0e8e54c.mp4 6af7f95612648bdace8403ec7f12aa67 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a2431db152d895162a7bf959ffc03b9.pdf d83c2ea2fc2b866f60c06fc1fea6a9dc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interviewee: Norman Christopher Interviewed by: Dr. James Smither Born: New Jersey Transcribed by Jennifer Hughey Interview length: 1:58:21 Norman Christopher: Okay, I was born in New Jersey, in Patterson General Hospital and then lived in Ridgewood New Jersey, went through all the public school systems in Ridgewood and graduated from Ridgewood High School. [0:51]Interviewer: Alright, what year were you born? 1943 And what did your family do for a living when you were growing up? We lived in the northwest corner of Ridgewood and my father, at that time, commuted into New York City and he would get up on the train and leave and then come back in the evening and then we were at that corner in the northwest where the school system started with elementary school, which was close, and then middle school got further away, and by the time high school came it was way on the other side of town with no school buses, so we had to figure out how to get to school every day. Alright, what kind of job did your father have? He was in the insurance industry and, interestingly enough, was a hull secretary and hull secretaries insured ships. So he was with Atlantic Mutual Marine Insurance which sort of got me interested, at that time, in boats. Now, what did you do after you finished high school? What did I do? Yeah. Immediately upon graduation, the question is where do you go to college? I was one of the few that went south. I went to the University of North Carolina. And why did you go there? �[2:10] They had a Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps program, it's called the ROTC. I entered that in conjunction with going to college, and it paid for a portion of the education and it was a full almost like immersion into naval history and you also spent each summer aboard a ship and then upon graduation, you receive an instant designation and then from there, had the opportunity to share what kind of ships you might be interested in and from there your naval career would get underway. Did you go into this with the idea of actually maybe having a career in the Navy or was it just something to do? I did. Didn’t work out that way full time, but I did have an idea in the back of my mind about that. Ok and did you start college in ‘61? Yes So at that point there is no hot war going on, there is a cold one, but not that. Now you were talking a little but about the ROTC program was structured, you mentioned that you went aboard ships during the summers so what ships did you go to, and what were you doing? [3:25] Right, so I could remember several of them one--and again these were not necessarily all the types--so I was aboard a submarine, which was the harder, and these were deployed usually along the East coast, and so I remember several of the deployments being either out of Norfolk or out of Charleston. Second one was the USS Recovery, very interesting ship, which was a rescue ship. And so these were usually few week deployments where you would go aboard for training in a different area and then you would sort of see. I remember also going down to flight school, looking at that, determining that that was probably not going to be something that I would long term get engaged with. I was out of Pensacola, I think maybe that was my third summer, so you just get a little but of a variety and then you would come back with those experiences and then get back immersed into the full ROTC program. I was called what they call a 2x6 which is a minimum of 2 years active and a minimum of 4 year reserve as your commitment to that program. Interestingly enough, I recently went back to the reunion and it was one of the strongest showings of any--whether you picked a sorority, picked any group at UNC--I was moved by it. A lot of the people who had served in Vietnam and other areas all came back, and of course nobody had ever followed anybody for all that period of time but we had a chance for 3 hours to just get together and it was very quiet in terms of--I don't usually share what I'm gonna share and it’s just because that's just the nature of the service--and so I saw such a strong kind of commitment to some of the things that we were about to engage that these fellow ensigns and others came back to see each other so there was a camaraderie that was there that I just missed, but we had a chance to see that camaraderie many, many, many, many, years later. Now was this a 50th-anniversary thing? �Yeah, I just went through that it was very moving So, you're basically in college in 61 to 65, Correct [5:56] And over the course of that time, the country is kind of leaning toward actual conflict in Vietnam. Did you pay much attention to the news of the world while you were in college or did you just stay focused on your own stuff? I was aware but boy, was I focused. Because even though you don’t get a degree in naval science per se, you’re taking all those courses and then you're also looking at a BS which I was trying to do. So it was a fascinating thing so it was a lotta schoolwork at that time so I was fairly focused, probably not as aware of current events at that time, but it was focused cause you had to go to drilling as well and you had your own obligations to the--not just to the ROTC program but to those on campus that would engage the training program-- so there was constantly something going on all the time. Now did things like the Cuban missile crisis or the Kennedy assassination affect things? Kennedy assassination, sure. So that sort of heightened it was like “wow these things really can happen” and not so much what your role is gonna be in it now but it was more like the scouts’ law: be prepared something is coming. So it was like creating a much higher sensitive awareness if you will. That what you’re going through isn’t just necessarily going through the motions. That's when I first felt like “wow something might happen here where you could actually serve in other than a normal time effort.” You could feel it coming. While you were doing all the ROTC stuff what was your actual academic major? Chemistry, so it was basically a Bachelor of Arts and I was always on the science side of the equation, naval science was there, chemistry was there so that's where my focus was on the campus. When you become a Naval Officer, then you normally have some kind of specialization or area, did you pick that or was it picked for you? [8:15] That was probably the first earmark into some extensive training. So I graduated in that May ‘65 timeframe and then went to nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare school. I was in Philadelphia, very intensive and that, when you come out you are certified as what they call a Damage Control Assistant so it's very, very extensive program for several months I remember going to that Philadelphia shipyard, so when you come out of it you now are an ensign but you’re beginning your specialization if you will, so when you go aboard a ship it isn't just having an ensign degree--I mean an ensign rank--but you could be going to things like main propulsion �assistant, you could go to that kind of training. And then you get into more line operation training, which I can talk about in a minute. So that was the first, I would say, and that left a lot of memories which I still have today because that was an extremely close enough program with simulated exercises that you would have a taste forever of what a casualty situation or collateral damage might look like. What were some of the exercises or things that you did in that first training? Two or three of them that come to light. First, well, there’s a lot of fire training, so they would light fires and you would have to figure a way to get them out and so they might be class A, class B, class C fires some of them are oil generated electrical generated but these were not small fires these were large fires that you had to actually go in, because ships might offer a Class Alpha, Bravo, or Class Charlie fire so you were immersed in that so that was the first thing is what does a 10-15 foot flame really look like and how do you get in there to take care of it. And there are different techniques. But they also had an exercise of smoke training and that is one that is extremely difficult. So you’re actually in a compartment that’s totally sealed and you have your what is known as and I still think today they know as OBAs or Oxygen Breathing Apparatus where you’re put with a canister, and it’s okay with your canister on, but then they rip your canister off and they ask you to get out. And there’s certain things you learn about smoke and I do remember that one completely to this day of actually trying to walk down several decks and crawling through spaces. Now, they did have people in there to take care of you if you needed it, but that was an exercise that of how do you get out of a smoke-filled compartment. [11:23] Did you do gas drills and things like that too for tear gas or things like that? Oh yeah, so you had a chance to cry some, cry none so this is where you are now exposed to some of this you are also exposed to learning how to give yourself shots, which you had to have so you were carrying these at the same time. And then another exercise that I do remember going through was a potential drowning exercise so they actually had a hull in there and they would submerge it and then you were placed in the middle of it and had to figure out how to get out of it through compartments. Still remember that exercise to this day. And then what about the nuclear side of things? Were you preparing for a nuclear attack or for, say, leaks on a ship that was nuclear powered? Probably more on the biological warfare side than nuclear. Nuclear was basically if you were in a scenario where a nuclear attack was underway you had to wash down the ship and do some other things. So it was more of “yes this could happen” but then you had to be self-contained, but not only that, is radiation. So you were exposed to that yes, we did have tags and looked at what that would mean, but we also saw at that time, which today you see carried on all these years later, is biological warfare which is still probably one, if not the, most lethal ways. We were given way back then videos of where biological warfare had actually taken place, and you can’t recreate those scenes but I do remember looking at how a biological warfare could actually take place and it was done fascinating by using an aircraft at very high altitudes dropping it into the �air stream, and they used a particle sensitivity and then put the plates on the back of telephone poles. You could actually go out and figure out with one airplane dropping this and seeing where the air streams would take it and then seeing what the concentration was on the back of plates. That was so many years ago so you just see the sophistication, I can't even describe it today, but that to me was fairly sophisticated and alerting us to the fact of this could come a nuclear attack it could come, we were more concerned about biological at that time because, not so much to the ship but to a country, like taking out feedstocks, contaminating water. Then, of course, the other ones were basically what you might see as a casualty drill aboard a ship either from a fire, from smoke, or from water being brought on board by a compartment so you got kind of a very intensified hands-on capability as you walked out of that. [14:38] Now was this school the only one you did before you went to your first ship? Yes So what’s your first actual assignment? When you leave, I left North Carolina actually found the document while I was getting through some of the files and I wondered how I arrived there so i actually put “I would like to have the opportunity to go on a FRAM II Destroyer” so I actually wondered myself how I wound up there but there it was as I left Carolina there it was, so that's what I went on board. That ship was home ported in Norfolk. Okay now which ship was this specifically? DD 724 USS Laffey And you have an idea about when that was built? Was that a post WWII ship? No most of these ships I was on, including the Neches which we’ll talk about, these were older ships, so they had been around, and it's this really good surface destroyer but what was interesting about this, so I remember leaving the school and then going, so I came aboard the Laffey right away in September of ‘65, so it was right after that school which was for the summer of 65, and there I went. So I was kinda like transported, the ship was not homeported it was already doing its exercises in the Indian Ocean, and the Red Sea. And how did they get you out to the ship? Very interesting, so I was wondering the same thing. I was wondering whether I was gonna pick it up in a port or how I was gonna do this. I actually was helicoptered in. I do remember that because the seas at that time were about 15 ft, and that was a memorable opportunity to be dropped in by a helicopter on top of a destroyer while you’re underway doing exercise drills so I do remember that. �[16:38] And you say the sea is 15 feet so you have like 15 foot high waves essentially, so the ship is going up and down. I remember at the time a little bit about the exercises so I think at this time, might have been the Roosevelt, that name comes back to me, but it was plane guarding. So one of the exercises for destroyers is--besides combatant and firepower--is to plane guard. So you would be in formation with other ships and exercises and they would be doing flight operations and you would be plane guarding, so that if there was in fact a plane with an overboard drill or casualty you would peel off and do a rescue. So that was one of the, I remember, one of the task force operations that was originally part of that. So these are usually deployments that last for 6 to 9 months unless you were asked to stay on. But I knew going in is that I was one of the overcomplemented ensigns, so they have a certain amount of deployment of officers and enlisted people and I remember when I went aboard that i was on the over complements, I always wondered about that, over complemented meant you were one above the number. I never really got to figure out why that happened but I guess they anticipated somebody leaving, but there was no room so instead of joining officers’ quarters, I do remember joining chiefs’ quarters. So this was a fascinating opportunity when I first came aboard, that does usually not happen so I had the opportunity to really see the senior enlisted side which was the chiefs. That was an interesting experience for me because usually everybody--you’re a boot ensign--and everybody wonders to know whether you’re gonna make it or not, and you're really really green, and I was in many many areas, but I was blessed with the opportunity of having some really senior people there that began to mold and shape a little bit of that for a short period of time. [18:50] So you arrive on the ship then, and you mention there’s no room for you in the officers’ quarters so you join the petty officers instead. In general, how are you treated, or what kind of reception do you get when you come onto the ship? Yeah I remember that too, it basically all now comes to fruition. All the training world is not gonna give you this, you’re now there and have to perform. I do remember struggling, seas were just really really difficult, you had to get your sea legs and that took forever. I remember, I mean everybody goes through it but it takes weeks to get your sea legs and so I had to go through that period, but yet also stand all the watches and do everything you're supposed to do and I do remember those struggle days and people wondering, as they look at you and they know your struggling, “what are you gonna be like in the next couple of weeks after all this sea legs and you get a little bit more?” So very very challenging time to really sort of, now all of a sudden you are who you have been trained to be, now reality sets in. Did anybody try to help you or coach you or do they leave you to your own devices? A couple of the junior officers were there, and I do remember a few of them, but basically you're on your own. [20:30] What actual duties did you have then, on the Laffey, what were you doing for them? �Well I do remember one specific training that I, again you would not actually take an officer of the deck but you could become a quarterdeck watch officer. So I was certified during this timeframe as a quarterdeck watch officer. So you would be part of four on-four off, or four oneight off, whatever the exercise required, meaning four hours on and eight hours off so you’d be continually doing this and then you would be with the officer of the deck and a quarterdeck officer and those requirements would be up on the bridge. So you’re up on the bridge, you’re simply there. Did you have any-Sightings? Yep, you’ve got people as lookouts on the sides of ships, that was a specific area first for officers to be acquainted with what the bride duties really were and so some of those officers might be in supply, they would not be part of this, now you’re considered part of the “line duties”. That was the first piece that I do remember going through and then takes awhile to get certified but then you are now a quarterdeck watch officer, and you’ve got other officers--junior ones--that might be main propulsion assistants whose requirements are down inside the ship, but they had a group of us that were now being exposed to how ships really maneuver, what the exercises are, because you can see what’s going on. [22:17] As far as you can tell or put together, what was your ship actually doing, or what was the task force you were with actually doing at that point? Again, a little bit of this is foggy, I get a little better with the next level but it was because I was getting my legs and everything else, I was not as--what shall we say--cognizant of what these exercises were. There were a number of ships that you were just not in this by your own. I do remember the carrier there, I do remember other destroyers and other ships so there would be a lot of this information. So there are several ways that you would have a task force group operating and so we’d have a carrier and then would have certain ships on the outside for one exercise I remember, it’s called a bent line screen which is where you have a carrier in the middle and you have certain ships that are on the outside and a bend line screen for protection. So all these were different types of exercises in formation. That’s what I remember first because when i left the ship and then went into this next service area that became very helpful because you think when you’re just out there you’re by yourself, you’re doing it oh no no no. You’re given orders to do this in formation and so regardless of what those water conditions are you have to be 2000 yards directly behind at this end. So I would watch the officers of the deck try to maneuver these ships to stay in these formations and you could see them on the radar screen. You wanna stay as tight in this type of formation so they would expose you to different formations to protect and to also be on assault if needed so it was several different roles but this was part of these exercises that were coming from the fleet. [24:14] A Destroyer is a relatively small ship, did it help you to orient yourself to what the Navy does, because you were on something where you could see all these different dimensions? �I would say yes because even though I was there for a short period of time it gave me the opportunity to see a ship in action and all the component parts and how they all flow. Yes, they’re small, they’re hundreds of feet, they’re not 500 and above, these are small vessels. They can speed at a significant number of knots and they do a lot of warfare, so they’re very electronically, well I’m thinking ahead to the type of electronics we had, but they had probably the most up to date fire control systems, so that if you were being attacked by an aircraft you could look at the fire control systems, they had five-inch 38 mounts and other things. You had a chance to see the armament on the ship, you had a chance to see what it was like to maneuver in formation, you could see all these different departments aboard a ship, you could see the importance of the Chiefs and the warrant officers, they’re our most senior, they spent years in the service, and then you got somebody like ourselves who are here for the first time, yet you were assigned to different divisions and things like that. It was the first chance to be a part of enlisted with warrant officers to see how that whole division--because there were a number of divisions on a ship--would actually come together. But it was more for me an opportunity to soak in before I actually contributed. [26:02] How long did you spend on the Laffey? I was there from September of 65 to March of 66 with one important school that happened in between. After moving through, becoming a Quarterdeck Watch Officer I then had the chance to go to school for Officer of the Deck OOD tactics, that’s now where the opportunity will be to train to actually take over the ship from the captain when he is not actually on the deck. There are a number of people who are training, so I went to that school. OOD tactics school ended in December of 65, so while I was aboard the Laffey, a short period but I did get that training. As soon as I had that training, this complement of officers and shake-ups sort of came and then the question was where do you wanna go? I didn’t answer the question, I just said I didn’t look at this from a sensitivity with what was brewing in Asia at the time, I had just said wherever I can serve. [27:19] So the idea was that this was--on the Laffey--that was just a temporary assignment to give you--literally your sea legs. Now where did you do your Officer of the Deck Training? I’m trying to remember and I can’t, it just doesn’t come. [27:31] Was it back in the US or was it still with a fleet? They did these in Europe too, at some of the ports. It just doesn’t come to me, but it did at the time give you the fact that “wow there’s something more here coming” so now you have the DCA, the Quarterdeck Watch Officer, the OOD, so you’re becoming to have a set of complementary skills that can be used. That’s the best way to package--in a very short time frame, because we’re not even a year out of graduation and now, all of a sudden I have this. That’s what I remember is I have a package now and then when the question is where, that's �when the orders came back “You’re gonna go from the East Coast to the West coast” and that’s when the change happened. [28:25] While you were with the Laffey, do you remember if you ever went into port at anyplace or did you stay at sea the whole time. Well there is an interesting note here that I met my wife, who went to North Carolina for the same time I did, but I never met her. So I met her when the Laffey was ported in Norfolk. She was from Virginia Beach and actually taught school there. That was the first time that I had met her, it was aboard the Laffey while we were either running in or running out for a short period of time. So you went back to your home port. Did you stop in any overseas ports that you can recall or just back in Norfolk? I remember one where we had a degree of difficulty entering a port and actually had a small collision and it’s just all part of the background there, but I do remember that. It just happened and you were not--shall we say--put into a scenario where you couldn’t steam, you couldn’t do this, but I do remember the beginnings of what something might look like in terms of real action, but this was not under any course. East Coast was all preparation training for what was going to take place. When I left, I didn’t know I was going to the Neches which is AO-47, homeported in Hunter’s Point. But I had to go to school again, so now we go to the next school, which is Cargo Fuel Oil Handling. That was intensive training on how you move fuel. Where did you do this? That was in San Diego. The ship was in Hunter’s Point of San Francisco, but I do remember going. I went to that Cargo Fuel Oil Handling, or Petroleum school for several months in the spring of 1966. [30:51] What did that school consist of? Well, coupled with, you can see now with the background with chemical and biological warfare, you’re sitting on something that could explode easily. So you have to learn the types of fuel, there’s JP-5, JP-4, which are basically aviation fuels. Most of it is bunker fuel or what the ships use, and you were exposed to all of that. You were exposed to how to keep that fuel clean, and I didn’t realize the importance of that--I can share a story about that in a minute. You’re exposed again, to saltwater right? So you can think where sediment saltwater gets involved in these fuels. So you’ve gotta know what they are and then you have to know how to handle them, and that means pumping. All these fuels that we’re describing are on the oiler and are pumped to various ships as they come alongside. I’d never been a part of that, and seeing that operation. But then you have to realize you have to know flammability, you have to know safety, you have �to know how to keep it on spec, and you have to know how to move it. Then you also have to know the crew that you’re going to be with as part of the deckhands to move that fuel, so that was a lot. But, I came out of school and that’s now what I came aboard as. They had to have one of those aboard the ship, so that's what I was trained in. Now all of a sudden I’m not looking at anybody else, I’m looking at myself, because now I have that training that that ship required. [32:52] When you were doing this school, would they take you out to sea to practice refueling and things like that or did you stay in the harbor? Probably in the harbor, but they have so many videos now that they would use in class to show, you know I showed you one recently of what was taken of the Neches, it’s now been decommissioned and put to bed, but you could get these so there was a lot of these classes were done with videos. But the things that I do remember from that is that the ship that I was going to go aboard, all these valves had to be cranked by hand. The Neches is one of the oldest but most reliable oilers that the fleet had. A lot of them now move into hydraulics and you just sit and move them, no these had to be moved by hand. I remember asking myself “holy cow, am I gonna remember to turn the right valves on and the right valves off?” That’s all I remember out of that one, but I do remember that question living with me. And then to do it in seas and all that sort of stuff, wow. And I do remember the underway replenishment with the Laffey, doing a few of these, but never from the supply side. Most of the time you wouldn’t appreciate other than the lines come over, you take, you leave. Now all of a sudden, I’m looking at it through a different lens, like what’s all the preparation that has to go on before that ship comes alongside. And they could come along both sides at the same time so all of this is like, I have no idea what I’m gonna experience. You can see these by some of the videos that they were shooting in some of the sequences. So you could see those operations coming full circle pretty quick. Where and when do you join the Neches? I joined it in San Francisco in that spring right away, that March timeframe that I went to school. I went to school right there and came right back and then it was deployed. [35:13] Then you sailed with it out from San Francisco, and where were you going? We were going to, what they call, the South China Sea, Gulf of Tonkin, Yankee Station. All that are familiar terms to many, unfamiliar to me at the time, but we knew what we were going to do. We were, of course, all 7th fleet operations which were designated into the South China Sea. Our home port was Subic Bay, very interesting homeport. Just to add to that, we were part of what they call a task force. You have the 7th fleet but then they had different task forces underneath it. This task force was with underway replenishment group. We were an oiler but you also needed to have AEs which were ammunition ships and you have to have supply ships, so they were out there too. We were then, where do we get our fuel, and that was from Subic Bay. That was a steaming couple of days from Subic Bay in the Philippines out into the South China Sea, so that was what was ahead of us. �[36:37] When you went out the first time did you stop off at Subic Bay first, and then go on? Describe a little bit the setup at Subic Bay or what was there and what went on there. The biggest experience I could ever have is in this new role, so here I am, First Cargo Officer and a young ensign coming aboard to take on this fuel. So we go into Subic Bay and you take yourself down to where the depot is, the fuel depot, and you send your lines across and you start taking on fuel. I start taking on fuel, and we have a small lab, very unsophisticated at the time, but to take on bunker fuel you basically look for sediment. This fuel starts coming onboard, these are very deep tanks, 30-foot tanks. We’ve got several mains, ones were just at the bow of the ship, you had two up there, that was number one, number two through 8 or 9 all had center tanks and two wing tanks. So we started taking on this fuel and I started noticing, cause you’d spin these in centrifuges, I was picking up rust. I didn’t think too much about it, maybe it’ll percolate through. It didn’t percolate. So I took this up to the captain. I remember saying “Captain, I just wanna let you know something. This is what your fuel looks like.” He couldn’t believe it, I couldn’t believe it. We shut it down and we pumped it back. All I was doing was what that school had just told me to do. I always wondered why. I got into a little bit of well they’re gonna test the young ensigns, this is real time. Here, you know he thinks everything’s hunkydory and you’re over there and no it wasn’t hunky-dory at all. So the first fuel that I took on board, we were able to catch and that experience, every time I came back in I got the best treatment in this world. So to this day I don’t know whether they were testing myself and the captain or whether the captain was aware and we’re just gonna go do this. But that's the livest training you can ever imagine. [39:27] You’re making it sound as if you were sort of the one officer it was on that ship whose job it was to do this. We had a chief and we had a crew. The chief was there, of course, with me, but we were starting to catch this and wondered. So it wasn’t just me catching it, but it was our responsibility to take the fuel on. When everybody would go on leave or go offship for a while, no. I’d stay on the ship almost all the time, because you’re taking back on fuel. I didn’t get a whole lot of time in Subic Bay, because we’re always just very impactful, taking on fuel. It’s certainly, with this group of, and really the warrant officer and myself, looking at this fuel and saying “hey this is not acceptable fuel to take.” Part of what I was asking is there are not other officers on this ship with the same responsibilities that you rotate with. So it really is just you, and you’re just a new guy coming on there and okay that’s your job. But in the meantime you don’t get to, say, enjoy as much of Subic Bay. Oh no, no. That was the first time. You have to load up cause you’re using fuel to steam across the Pacific and you get a chance. I have in the book here that was for this tour, you can see actually where the ship went, but you now know the routine, well I didn’t know the routine yet, I just knew when we were out of fuel and supplies, we had to go back into Subic Bay. That’s where you were gonna get the supplies. Then you had to steam for a few days out into this 700, �900 mile big Sea to get you to your station. I hadn’t done that yet, because we had to take on all the fuel and all the supplies.I had not yet gone underway with any underway replenishments to know what that was like, but I now knew this was gonna be the routine for taking on fuel. So you’ve done that and now you head out for the South China Sea, explain a little bit for an outside audience what Yankee Station was. [41:43] Yankee Station was an area in the Gulf of Tonkin in the South China Sea. They actually had two stations. Totally unfamiliar with what they called Dixie station which was in the South China Sea, so this is in the North part. So this, I presume--and I did a little bit more researching, is that they would have several groups. You needed to have two or three carriers at all times, so there would be two or three carriers in this area, and our primary job was to refuel--usually at night, so most of these operations were done at night. Some were done during the day, but that was to primarily keep as much of the carrier formations. We are further enough away except for one time, being fired upon. You usually are far enough away until storms et cetera get you in close, and I do remember that one time. But these carriers are the ones that were providing the flights and that’s where the Navy would go in with the aircraft. We were carrying JP5, it’s primarily kerosene, so besides sediment and bunker fuel, the other big problem is saltwater in kerosene. So you had to test all the time and you couldn’t leave the vents open. Lots of times you would want to, you could only open those vents when there was no rain, when the seas were not coming over the fo'c'sle. You had to watch what you were doing, so you’re always there wanting to make sure that you wouldn’t have built up flame vapors in these, but you also wouldn’t have them during the seas. That’s where your deck hands would be out there ensuring at all times that you had the right ventilation system. Yankee station was an area that we were a task force as a part of the 7th fleet operations, but we could not give any orders. We’re subject to those that are in the 7th fleet that would then start to say “okay, carriers X, Y, and Z: they need to be refueled. You’ve got destroyers, you’ve got the Canberra, I remember a few of the larger surface vessels being in there. I think, I did a little bit more research, there were about 40 Navy craft during this timeframe that were either in the Yankee station or Dixie station, cause each of those would have two or three carriers, and a number of destroyers. I was exposed to some ships while we were there that we can get into that I’d never ever seen before, because they’re the smaller ones. So we arrived in this Yankee Station as part of a task force, and then we would be called into formation by the superior officer who was in charge of those operations, which weren't us. [44:59] So, big picture, the carriers are there providing support for troops on the ground, or striking targets in North Vietnam, the base where the aircraft are conducting military operations and then you’re there to keep everybody fueled. Right, there were some other ships in there, and there were some guided missiles, and I can talk about a little bit of a couple of ships I had never ever seen before that we were actually able to refuel that were actually providing a lot of that firepower. Now let's go back to the Laffey, you had the destroyers in there and they’re doing the same things now that we’re actually in war. So that training that I had on the Neches going back to the Laffey, I now saw both sides of the �equation. They may be firing at certain times, they would go in closer and maybe provide firepower into the coastline and then the air wings would take off and go in and provide additional strafing runs into the country, I can see that, but I can’t speak to what actual firepower destroyers were giving, they would be doing that. A cruiser now and then, the big boys were around--not many of them. You would have that and then you would have others. They’re amphib vessels. You’ve got cruisers you've got destroyers, you've got amphibs, you’ve got carriers, you’ve got minesweeps, and you get river forces, so you could probably break down at least seven to ten task force groups. So if you can imagine the war now having 7th fleet operations, but 8-10 task forces, and how do they all come together. I never appreciated that actually until you asked me to go back and do a little research, and when I saw it, it was like how and where did those plans come from, and we would sometimes ask those same questions. [47:02] From your perspective onboard the ship, if you have to refuel, say, an aircraft carrier, how do you do that? What’s your job? There were a few that were pretty special in this, so I listed some of the carriers that we actually--I think the ones that I remember, there are two or three that I remember specifically. I do remember the Kitty Hawk, that was CBE 63. That was one of the first carriers brought into Yankee Station. Another big one, number two in this, was the Ticonderoga. These are the first responses. This was I think CB 11. That was an Essex Class, the Kitty Hawk was a Kitty Hawk Class, and then the third one, which was the only one we ever saw, was the Enterprise Class, which was the USS Enterprise and nuclear, only one. I do remember that coming alongside, and here we are at a 500 foot Oiler, steaming along. You had to be given orders on the speed, wind direction. Don’t forget, at any one time they might be flying, so this was not “let’s pick the smoothest” no you had to pick, get a certain amount of headwind off the front of that aircraft carrier so they could launch planes. You’d probably be doing this in the night. Then all of a sudden, how does a USS Enterprise come along close. I was so impressed with the ship handling of these care. So if you can picture, our operations were on the deck. So up in the front you’ve got the bow and you’ve got where the conning tower is for the oiler, and you’ve got the bridge and all that in communications and that sits up front. Then you go back and you get all this massive amount of tankage, and then you’ve got the stern. So we’re right in the middle on the deck. They have the ability to steam in, so you’d be steaming, you had to steam at probably a minimum of 12 knots, but it wouldn’t take them forever, they were not steaming at 13--it would take hours to catch up--they’d be steaming at 25 and know when to shut down. Just go into neutral, and then go in reverse and slow those engines down. It was the most impressive, and then you would look out: one deck, two decks, three decks, four decks, five decks, six decks, seven decks, eight decks. Then you realized, even though you thought you were on a big ship, my goodness gracious, that was the Enterprise. The operations for the carriers always concerned me, because you’ve got a lot of water that’s bouncing off that hull, and it would all wash back on this. We always practice Man Overboard drills, because besides the fact with a life preserver, getting a chance to get washed overboard was pretty easy. There was damage control and, really where all the operations were. You could get inside on the deck in the area where you could have some safety, but for the most part you’re going around, turning bowels. �[50:46] The interesting piece in doing that is that wasn’t the first ship that was toward the end. You then had to figure out all of this: how do you get these hoses over to the other side, they would always take their fuel, basically in the floor of the ship and the aft of the ship. It wasn’t just one, you have to send several lines aboard. Then you have to look at are you taking AB gas in addition to JP5. Ships like the Kitty Hawk would take bunker fuel to run on and then they want their AB gas, and you’d have to make sure, again, all those samples of all those fuels are right and then you’d have to send over. We’d shoot lines over so that was it with a rubberized kind of arrow, and it would go over. And we’d shoot these and there would be a line attached so then the line would come across, then you’d have to have, on both sides now, the ability to put up a fuel line and run it across. So this is like “can you hit the mark in the middle of the night and do all this stuff?” So we got guys that were really deck hands that were really good. They loved that. They loved the ability to go shoot at one of these big carriers. We tried to lighten it up, but you could see the seriousness of all of it. We also would take on destroyers. To the portside we’d go on to the starboard side. The dual operations were extremely difficult because now you’ve got four lines out. The most difficult thing is the pressure. These things are stoke with a lot of pressure and if they're not clamped on right, you’re gonna paint somebody black. That happened, not so much with us, but you’ll see ships that had a good dose of bunker fuel. So that was one of the issues. They maintained big pressure hoses and then once that fuel was aboard, you had to drain then right, and then bring them back right, and not drop a whole lot of this stuff into the water or on the board or side of ships, and make it as clean an operation. [53:03] For me, the first couple of times was just watching it happen. Thank goodness we had a great chief and great deckhands because they’d done this before, I hadn’t done any of this before, I got better as the replenishments went underway. Did you do any of the hands-on stuff yourself, would you get down and use the valves at all, do what they were doing? Oh for sure, cause you always wanted to participate, but I didn’t wanna take over somebody else’s respect. My job is I would always work with the chief, and I do remember that, with a sheet of paper to trace the lines because I just mentioned we have all these tanks, which one’s being drained at what time? I would kind of do a chalkboard thing and walk around to make sure we’re actually pumping from that and the pressure’s right. I was always there to trace. Then the question is “what happens when one tank is empty and then you have to shift to another tank?” Just to give people perspective, these ships, when loaded with fuel, they would hold, the Neches--by the way is the most decorated fleet tanker in US Navy history. It was commissioned in 1942 and went to rest in 1970. Most decorated--I did not know that till I did some research. It contained the following characteristics. It was what they call a Mattaponi class oiler. There were several classes of oilers like classes of aircraft carriers. Named for the Neches river in Texas, 242 officers and enlisted, so it had a fairly large complement. Displacement 22,445 tons so it's a fairly significant size ship, 520 feet in length. Still small compared to a carrier, but larger than most of the other destroyers and everything else. Beam 68 feet, flank speed 16 knots. Now one of the reasons were reliability, single screw, but a sitting duck. But the most reliable you’d ever see. And that’s why this was, probably weathered so many different campaigns for the Navy. I do remember that, maneuverability. We did all kinds of Man Overboard drills and competed with �one another on the deck and tried to do different formations. But the final disposition was sold for scrapping in December of 73. It took on a lot of fuel, so it would be over 35 feet in draft, fully loaded. When all the fuel was gone, we would offload all that fuel, we just come up like a floating top. So now all of a sudden you’re riding 10 feet versus over 30. Very interesting, right? You get a chance to ride in many different feelings and perspectives, we would stay out for every time for probably 30 plus days. In that timeframe, over 30 days, we would do, on average, probably 30 to 35 replenishment, and then we’re emptying and back. [57:00] While you’re out on duty, did you have to ride through any typhoons or bad storms? Yeah, I remember some well over 20, 25 feet. Which today is, if you watch some of these fishing, that’s nothing today. But it is when you’re doing replenishments and being told what formations. When we weren’t doing that during the day, you would get replenishments as well. Those were for the major ships, but as time passed, cause we did this month after month after month and then going back to Subic Bay, we’d be called out, even though it would take you’d go back in after 30 days from probably one to two, so that’s why my time was limited. So while they all get a good meal, every once and awhile I could sneak off the officers’ quarters and do, but Subic Bay is a tough area, so even though you look at it at user-friendly, it was a very different time. That was very memorable as well as some of the impressions that I was giving. The Filipinos in the Navy were just great because a lot of those were stewards on board. I remember being taught how to eat Gilly Gilly which is interesting pieces of rice and fish and Anissa. It was the culture side of this started. All of a sudden, you got all different people with all different backgrounds, all in this thing. Not quite sure why we’re here, what we’re doing. The routine sorta helped, so for me “okay, now we’re done, now we go back.” Every once in awhile, we’d be called back before that, two days. Alright, well let the first part of the crew off for one night, and another off, let some off two nights. We’d get called back out because of the need. We were prime time for this, at least in the northern part. Then we had a chance to even go in further as the months progressed. That became a routine that was helpful to me. If we could perfect that routine, which had its degrees of difficulty, I don’t ever remember exactly how many but for the months we were out there you can start adding them up and start looking at the types of vessels and then you realize how much fuel we actually, you know. [59:24] What were the dates of your service on the Neches? I came aboard in March-April of 66 and their tour came back in--actually released in June of 67 Over the course of that time, does most of the crew and ship’s complement remain the same? (Christopher nods his head) So it’s not like the army where everybody is going in and out on their own one year calendars and cycles. So you have pretty much the same group of people that you’re working with the whole time. I did receive a spot promotion in December of 66, while there from ensign to Lieutenant JG. �What impression did you have of the other officers? The captain or the ones you actually worked with? Some I remember very closely because I worked with them. Others, like on the supply we had people that would handle that side, I wasn’t quite as close with, but you had a close-knit because besides refueling, I also stood in as an officer of the deck. So now all of a sudden, not only am I doing the cargo but I’m also.. Now when the replenishments would come, I would come off the deck and an officer would come up. I do remember those days very well, from ship handling as well. From quarterdeck, then going to the officer of the deck, then from cargo field school, now I also was an officer. Actually, that’s almost like a job in itself because you would be on for four hours at a time and then off depending upon what. But sleep: you had to have a routine because, just picture you were up early in the morning standing your duty and by the way that night we’re doing underway replenishments for most of the night, so a little sleep deprivation every once in awhile, but you just learned to live through it. We were all young back then so we don’t worry about stuff like that, but I do remember juxtapositioning both those two. [1:01:49] What was the captain like? Captain Millar, great guy. Most oilers take on what they call “four stripers” as full captains so they rotate. He had both line duty, also shore duty, and he was very well experienced. He set the very right temperament and I can’t, we should talk about temperament a lot. It’s very difficult when you’re in 90+ degrees with 90% humidity to look your best, but you also didn’t wanna look like you didn’t care to be in the Navy. It was this balance, and he set a very good one. He also was very congenial, I do remember him as expecting, if he gave an order, for you to carry it out but he wasn’t micromanaging you, which in this case: absolutely you don’t want. Micromanaging this kind of operation-it’s the reliance on how everyone fits together. He did, I remember, put us through some good, challenging drills together. Those were good. There were a couple of ship handlers that definitely, among, there was a crew of us that could do many of this, because he had an executive officer and administrative officer. So you’ve got a number of those that are very well experienced and a crew of lieutenant JGs and lieutenants that have, cause don’t forget you’ve got armament, you’ve got people who have this capability too. The shiphandlers were good, I grew into being a better one, I wasn’t terribly good because--question: we dropped these big nothing more than wooden crates over the side and that would be all hands on deck Man Overboard. [1:03:45] And you would be challenged to be the first one in the shortest time frame to turn the ship around and bring it alongside. Number of ways to do that, and that was a competition I do remember that. I remember not coming in first, I remember not coming in last. I learned a lot from those types of “okay we’ll have all the OODs up on the deck here” and you would assume those if you just don’t walk off. Every watch you go up to be relieved, so there was a time frame 15 minutes before the watch actually happened where they would tell you to sea conditions: anything that’s happening in formation, what to expect in the next 24 hours, all the sensitive radar. You would get that total picture, so you don’t just walk up and take over. Then you’d have to salute and say “I assume the deck” and then the question is you can assume the deck and the con, which is the conning tower too. So there’s two pieces to that. Then if you are assuming the deck and the con the person that you have to--there are a certain �set of orders that the captain knows before he goes to take rest, that if you alleviate any of that or change any of that, you have to call him for that change. I remember doing that a few times, but you would want that captain to try to get as much rest as possible because now it isn’t just me. Think about all the other operations that he has to be sensitive for too. But we had some very very good times on board. We had spent Christmas at sea and shuttle Christmas trees and take back brass. Take mail out and shuttle people around, so it was a very lively time to do a lot of different things. [1:05:31] Now, did the routine kind of wear on people after a while? If you get to the end of that 30 days, is everyone kind of getting crazy? Well not for the first time, not for the second time, but if you keep doing these month after month. We actually had to go down for a little bit because some of the gun mounts. So we had to actually go back in Japan for a very short period of time to get some work done so that’s all scheduled. No question, it’s wearing. Most of those people, again the Neches has more than one deployment, I was not part of the other deployment. If you were aboard that ship and doing deployments one, two, and three, yeah, you could see that. There was a homesickness that started for some of those sailors that had been on not one not two but maybe additional tours of duty because they continued. It had a few more years left after but this was in phase two of the conflict so there was a discrete number of operations that they were held but i think i looked on and they were part of several of these, so that’s where the homesickness came. Tired, physical tiredness yes. Water, hydration, water was almost a premium as well, fresh water. [1:06:56] Did you have any kind of desalination equipment on the ship? Could you process seawater or did you just have to fill up at Subic Bay (Christopher nods) So did you have to take showers in saltwater or things like that on those ships? No but I remember having to talk about putting a ship on water rations and one of them was for a period of time when we actually were moving christmas trees around. Whoever gave that order we thought “if you’re going do into some of these” and it gets into some of these ships that I can describe a few of them that couldn’t come out all the way into formation because they were craft that were small like mine sweeps. Mine sweeps you’re not gonna pull off of the coastline so we actually had to get in and the hospital ships, they were in, so we actually had to figure out how to maneuver in and provide support. And then we had a few very unique ships, one of which I don’t think I ever saw again. They call them LSMRs, Landing Ship Missile Rockets which looked like a cut off destroyer and they would come out in it, you would never see those. They were always under cover, inside in the Delta. They took on much less draft. So you get a chance to see the full Navy here and experience, so physical fatigue with hydration, heat, and humidity. That is what took a big count. [1:08:37] You mentioned at one point that when you go ashore, there was at least one occasion when you got fired upon? Actually yes. I remember it was terrible storms and we were going up and down the coast, a little close, and have fired across the bow. They knew who we were so they just decided to give �us a little warning. They knew. So it was like “don’t come any closer.” When you’re on these lines and in these stations, it’s difficult with weather and rain. Clouds would definitely affect some of the radar. You knew you were in there, and you would be up near Hanoi or something like that but it would be like “but how close are we really?” and stuff like that. That’s the only time I do remember, but it’s interesting to talk about that for a minute. We did a number of exercises with our fire control. They would take, just to see if anybody actually did fire. These were five inch 38s, but never had the right fire control systems. I do remember a couple of times when they would put a sortie in over the course of the water and see if you could pick it up on radar and track it and at times that aircraft was behind us before that five inch 38 would ever track which tells you that if anybody had really decided you could take, because the systems were so old that they had never put in the new because basically its Korean and World War Two equipment that's being used. [1:10:26] And you’ve got an oiler which is not primarily a combat ship. You’ve got some, essentially had aircraft guns on there, but you’re not really supposed to be doing a whole lot of fighting so they don’t have the same kind of equipment they’re gonna have on a destroyer or something like that. From a damage control standpoint, you always wanted to know what you could provide and that always left me like “you’re probably not going to be able to do much.” That’s not the role but you have to have something if somebody came out from the coastline at any point in time of a smaller vessel, because most of the vessels that were there, a lot of fishing vessels. They’d always play games with us in the middle of the night. Try to look like we were running them over. They thought if they could, you could see them with their lights on. There’d be these small fishing fleets and they’d come out. They’d try to run across the bow of the ship as close as they could and it was always like “I presume we’re not hitting any one of these.” And the reason why they would do that, they thought the fishing would be better if they could get as close to that. There was a whole lot of different things. I could see these and like nothing you could do about them. There was always this in the night life that’s going on out there like “who are they? What are they doing?” and it’s like “oh, it’s the fishing fleets” and they’d come out and you would see these. That’s how close to shore some of the exercises were. [1:11:58] Did you go into any ports other than Subic Bay? Danang had a port in there and there were hospital ships and that’s the first time. Again, it’s very difficult to get any maneuver in these, but the hospital ships would be stationed in there, because that’s where they would take the people that had suffered significant injuries. That would be the only one where I would say that we probably made the foremost entrypoint. The other ones, we would get as close to shore as we could and then the mine sweeps would come out and the others. We had smaller replenishment gear we could actually use for that. But you’re not going ashore yourself in these places. You mentioned going to Japan, did you get to go ashore there? �I did, again a memorable experience. We were there for a short period of time and they always wanted officers that would be willing to be part of the military police, so I got a chance to be military police. That was another set of experiences because at that time, you can imagine, people had a memory of American ships. At that time you had Yokosuka, Yokohama, those were a lot of where the US had significant bases that could do repairs. You also had a population that wasn’t terribly excited to see the US Navy. So military police had the opportunity to get in and see some of the evening altercations and there were several, I do remember those. [1:13:52] At this point, was there sort of anti-war activism, or just general hostilities between sailors and locals. A lot of people talk about Japan as being a generally welcoming place, or they behave pretty well. It was, to be very honest it was very light in terms of the protesting. It was more of, I would say, our stirring up the locals than it was the locals stirring us up. There was some of that but you could deal with this. It was really our behavior. You’re dealing now with, it wasn’t just us, because you had other ships underneath repair there too. I do remember taking one tour to see Hiroshima, and it left a very vivid impression on me, because the person giving the tour was an individual who’d lost his family. They never forget that. They have some pictures where you would look at it and it was starting to be rebuilt for sure but you could see where that land looked a whole lot different than the countryside around it, so you know exactly the containment area where that bomb took place. But then to have somebody who’d actually lost his family, he felt to honor his family would be to describe what he went through and what took place. That left a mark with me. [1:15:40] A lot of Navy ships went down to Hong Kong at one point, did you get down there? Yep, and just stepping through all that, that’s where that military police. So you get to Hong Kong to get settled and then you get into yeah. So not much time there but the military police side of that is. You would see yourself as part of the police but you would be part of the Hong Kong military police, let me tell you they were no-nonsense with our guys. They were small but extremely combative. Once in action, goodness gracious. Probably for their size, the best handto-hand trained combat people I had ever seen in my life. It was a side of the equation that I had no appreciation of until we’re there for a short period of time and you’re letting those people go offboard, how they’re gonna behave and everything else. Staying aboard to make sure all the work on the ship gets done very very quickly so you can go back out on the line. I think we could’ve done some things differently to present ourselves in a slightly better way. So you’re kind of unleashing the soon to be unleashed on the town and someone cleans up after them. You spent some time sorting through the things that happened while you were on the ship. Are there kinda key things or events or incidents or impressions here that you want to bring into the story? �[1:17:12] Let me go to the tougher ones first. The tougher ones would be you’d be sailing along on Ranger Station during the day and you’d start seeing pieces of gear in the water and then you’d realize that these were ours, where are they coming from? When you first see them you’re not quite sure, and then you’d realize they were parts of aircraft. A lot of them turn out, but not all the time, to be fuel tanks. So those fighter jets that left those carriers would go out and provide firepower to wherever they’re asked for reconnaissance missions or whatever, helicopters, whatever. But they had a certain amount of fuel in those tanks and sometimes, as you know, we had no idea where some of those, I just watched the recent viewing of National Memorial Day and they had a family from Vietnam who went through all this. I watched it and it is so true that people were supposed to be at certain areas, but you weren’t sure where the area was. They were then captured, some came back, some didn’t, some died. Then you realize that the support for these people became absolutely tantamount to what you’re doing. It goes beyond fuel. So one of the biggest things we use to do is carry mail. Mail would go in there and that was just terrific, specifically for the smaller ships. Then at one point, we were just given a few Christmas trees that were actually in there, in the Delta, down at these different coastline areas and they would come out and they were just so appreciative, because they were the ones who were firing all that firepower and all that sweeping, and they were really the ones under the most difficult scenarios because they would take firepower from the coastline, we were not taking that firepower from the coastline. The only things we saw coming back were the planes. There were several carriers that experienced some significant issues. 44 died on the USS Oriskany and that was not due to anything, that was due to a problem aboard the carrier when they were launching. You would see that death didn’t occur necessarily all by enemy fire. We saw more of the ones where this came to light. Part of which is we saw a few planes not being able to get back. They were so close and you’d be praying for them, that they’d make it back on the top of that carrier. We saw a few, but that sort of brought all this to light. Like “what are we doing out here?” Then you see that’s what we’re doing out here. And you just pray to God that that pilot would be able to make it back. Most did, but a few didn’t, and you were able to get, some you weren’t, cause you just don’t know whether they were wounded as well as they tried to bring that back. That was the vividness, I guess, to us of how we saw that. Coupled with those ships that we would provide, we sent casings back, so we’d do just about anything anybody asked us to that was Captain Millar, even though it’s like “isn’t the ammunition ships those to bring back the brass?” “Yeah but when’s that next one coming through? I’m fully loaded with 38 shells.” I remember when I left I made a lamp out of mine. I took one piece of brass back and made a lamp out of it and I still have it today because that five-inch 38 was it. I mean, when you take it back that was the brass. You’d see how important that one piece of armament really was to everybody. But he was willing to be supportive and I think that’s another thing it’s like, we were supposed to do this, but we could do that. Well where in the regulations does it say that an oiler can’t take on a Christmas tree or deliver mail or take people, even though it might be a responsibility? (1:21:47) When you’re in times of conflict you really sort of do what’s needed. It gives you a full perspective. You’re out there and can see how the war really resides with those that are the pilots and in closer you would get mine sweeps and some of the other ships. The LSMR, which I still remember today is probably, if you look at some of the Vietnam movies, it’s the closest thing to looking at the bridge on one of these and seeing people in cutoff tee-shirts and armament like this, gun mounts where there shouldn’t be, but that’s what they did. I just �said “boy, that’s the closest thing that I can ever see.” Those were depicted but we didn’t have very many of those. The front end of this was just rockets. I’d never seen one of those before, you could see just by how many rounds of fire they could put off so quickly, and they needed a paint job. That was war and they could really provide great firepower. You never know the full complement of everyone out there, you had your job to do. You certainly had a chance to see casualties, you had a chance to see death, but yet you had a chance to see how everything fits together when a conflict like this takes place. I do have some even more difficult memories a little further down in the story, but that sort of gets us through where we are. [1:23:36] After we did this month after month after month, we had our ups and downs but for the most part never as many problems in the port Subic Bay as we had the first time. I still remember that, whether it was a challenge or an opportunity or whatever that was. We had a few problems with bad weather, I have the pictures that show the difficulty of those that come back and all of that. For the most part I would say we had a relatively successful tour. You’re called back for this period of time, so we were called back. I remember one of the biggest honors that I was given was to bring the ship home. So where was that, back to San Francisco? Yeah, so I brought it under the Golden Gate Bridge. Again, you would have pilots. We did a lot, thank goodness. That’s another thing we should say, because sometimes you can’t bring an oiler into Subic Bay or you can’t bring it into a port along the Vietnamese coastline without having a pilot. So I should always tell you tugboat pilots and all those crew that were part of those riverine forces along with the PBRs, which we can talk more about those, Patrol River Boats. They’re the ones that actually went up the coastline each and every day for the Navy. They probably were the best trained of anybody. To get back home you had to have to pilots, but I got it back, and what an honor to be given the opportunity to bring the ship home, at least for that watch when we got there. [1:25:33] I guess we’re generally following your story in order, so you got other sort of stories from the Neches that you haven’t gotten into yet that you want to bring onto the record. Part of them was kind of the extension of the difficulties with the military police that we had in Hong Kong, it was continued in Subic Bay. It was a very difficult spot, you can read all you want about Subic Bay, it’s a story in itself. You know, open sewage, all sorts of stuff. You can just imagine living like there with completely marginalized people, looking for handouts and everything else. Very difficult to immerse in a friendly way on an ongoing basis. We had out degrees of difficulty and we did suffer some significant consequences, but most ships had those inside Subic Bay. Subic Bay was the stopping point for all the seventh fleet activities as it was going over there. It grew, but I was always most concerned, and the stories present themselves, about the behavior that actually took place there. I saw some things that I just didn’t think I’d see before about how to treat people and that will always leave a memory too, just decency. You can talk about the bar fights, you can talk about all that, but it goes beyond. All of a sudden it was like “what’s the life value? What’s the value of a person?” At times, you would see people where there was no value, who didn’t look like they didn’t care. I’d never seen that. You’re brought up, go to college, people value things and all of a sudden “what’s the value of life?” It’s an interesting question. [1:27:41] Did you have any sailors who went into town, never came back? �Yep. And it’s known for the bars, and the prostitution, as well as crime and various things that can happen if you’re not careful. You just described it, that’s the trail. And when you would that, let’s just take that point for a minute and reflect upon it, you think you’re now in friendly territory, but what did you just say? You said they go ashore, they drink, there’s prostitution, there’s crime, and then they never came back. What’s the difference of that versus somebody who just lost their life serving out in Yankee Station? Where are we losing lives? We’re losing them in lots of places, I guess is the best piece that I can describe. I was seeing more of the other side of that than people who were actually on the combative side, although I did get a very good taste of what that was. There was more things on the other side of the equation than I ever imagined. By the time the Neches gets back to California, are you pretty close to being done with your active duty at that point? That’s when something memorable happened. I had spent time, I think I told you, with my wife and I was given the opportunity to ship over again and go to the next area of training which was Coronado Beach for River Patrol Boat. That’s what was next. My wife had the opportunity of saying if the Navy is your career, and this is where you’re going, maybe I’ll go somewhere else. So today, she’s still my strongest support, and she allowed me to continue the Navy a little bit more, which we could chat briefly about, but that was the line of demarcation for me. Although you asked me before, first question “did I have…”, and the answer is yeah I probably would’ve given it to myself. She was looking much further into this than I was, because once you get into this it becomes, I hate to say it, a lifestyle. Now, all of a sudden, I had had one lifestyle platform launching lifestyle, now I’m in the lifestyle. And of course, what does the Navy want? They want people who have had a launching lifestyle, have seen what this is, they don’t want to take on as many rookies anymore. Very very hard decision. I made it [1:30:50] How much time did you have left in active duty at that point? As soon as I said “no”, they processed me pretty quick. It wasn’t like “well let’s sit around and talk about old times” because they were preparing for their next deployment. THey also were looking for these River Patrol Boats. They usually were captained by a Lieutenant, so they had a small complement. Those were officers who usually had a warrant officer with them and in the deck. Those were the inshore river enforces, and separate task force. That was part of what could’ve come next, or staying aboard the Neches just to do another deployment. That was all in that mix. When you’re out there by yourself, she did come, my wife did come to see my ship brought back. I felt like that was a commitment. Because when you do this, you never know. There was this period of time, she made the commitment to come out and at least see. [1:32:06] Were you married at this time? No So you had met before and do you correspond while you’re on the ship? Just to stay in touch. That was not a good thing to do until you figured out whether your feet’s on really good ground or not so yes. That was the decision made back in June of ‘67. I did track my release there. Once you’re off active duty, you’re still in the active reserve then? Right, so I still have more years to finish out. Once you’re off active duty, did you go back to school, get a job? What did you do? �Now, all of a sudden, I go get married. That followed almost, you know, within the next period of time because that’s where this decision was made. I did get a job and one of the things being I had a background in chemistry. When I first came through, knowing that I might get out, I had looked at several companies and sort of processed myself. Dow Chemical was the first job I got. Now I have a job, but now I actually go for active-duty training. Now you’re in the active part of the USNR. Now I’m assigned AC-Dutra in the same timeframe, the latter part of ‘67, in New Jersey. Now I have part of a unit that is on active reserve there in New Jersey, which is where I was for my job. [1:34:02] What was your unit in New Jersey doing? This is a whole nother story and it’s bittersweet because I look back on it today not sure I made all the right decisions but there was a couple of things that turned my decision and you can share those because it's nationally known. Active duty is basically a reserve center. It’s a physical location in which you all spend a certain amount of weekends and a certain of week during the summer, a couple of weeks away. That started and it's called the Ready Reserve. After entering that, so for the late ‘60s early ‘70s, I spent summers aboard--and I think I can get most of these-- a couple of Oilers, so Caloosahatchee AO-98. Let’s see, let me get them in consequence. USS Trenton, and the Truckee, another oiler, AO-167, US Newport LST 1179. These were usually ships that were home ported, they could be out at sea or an employment. Half of them were, half of them were just at port. You would spend two weeks during the timeframe. It was all staying in a prepared readiness thing if, in fact, you were ever called up which we weren’t. That continued on. During this timeframe, in ‘69 I became lieutenant and at the same time became an administrative officer for this unit. Then I became the XO of this unit, executive of this unit, in 1974. So I was staying very engaged, I actually looked at a fitness report that I have, a couple fitness reports. You know it’s interesting how people look at you back then. I had them in my jacket, I think I told you I brought my jacket. I was looking in my jacket like “what did anybody think about this?” so I read a couple of the fitness reports. If I had really probably looked at them the way I looked, I would have stayed in and gotten my 20, but I didn’t/ The rub was this: there was about 250,000 that were in active duty, getting paid to all this, and then we had the executive order by you know what president that sort of said, “we’re just cutting back the reserves, we’re just scratching out pay and that’s it.” That took all the wind out of my sails because that means the only thing you’re doing is going down there one weekend a month, two weeks during the summer, you’re not getting paid, and what does all that mean? Cause now you’ve taken all these units off active reserve. Then you’re just pushing paper and pencils. That sort of came to light and I went in inactive standby reserve in 1978. Now I'm in a different state. So I’ve come from the East Coast Navy, to the West Coast Navy, to active duty, to inactive and so do I want to stay? I had to ask myself a question at the time “was this the best use of my time?” I made the decision I wasn’t gonna waste it. I was gonna go back and get an MBA, so that’s what I did. But I was just talking about my wife last night before I got here and I said “you know after reading all this stuff, what everybody thought, I don’t know whether I made the right decision.” [1:38:31] You did mention that the people who were the reserves were not getting paid? Right. But you were still showing up? �Had to show up. Inactive, as long as you were there, means you’re just getting your retirement pieces, you’re not getting paid for doing anything. Before you were being paid for something. So they took, under Clinton’s watch, which was starting to get in there, I believe that’s how it all started late into that period, those were the times when they shrunk the size of the Ready Reserve and shut down many of the Ready Reserve units and put many of them on inactive status. That’s where all that churn started for me and then I wound up [inaudible] Do you mean Carter rather than Clinton? I’m trying to remember. Cause Carter is ‘77. I’m trying to remember the president that decreed all this, I think I was in the reserves. When was Carter, 85? No Carter is after Ford, so Carter is ‘77 to ‘81. Alright, it may be Carter, I’m trying to remember who took it, who followed that piece right after that. You have Carter, then you have Reagan, and Bush, and then Clinton. Clinton’s not until the 90s. It may have been Carter. Somebody had taken out, maybe it was Clinton I guess, excuse me, he was the one who took out, I’m sorry I had it out of order in my mind, he’s the one who took out my brother-in-law who was a captain. He was the same issue. Got a name, his name because he stayed in for 20, my brother in law. It would’ve been this, but it was the shrinking at the time of this national, these active, what they call the act neutral programs. That’s when I had to make a decision on whether I just wanted to stay the next, because I was halfway there, to stay for these next 10 years and just do the retirement points, or whether I could use my time better and that was the decision I made. I think I was formally discharged in October of 1982. [1:40:35] Look at the time that you spent in the Navy, what do you think you took out of that, or how did it affect you? Well that’s probably worth more of the conversation than just some highlights of what you went through. Well first of all, I had no idea what the difference was between responsibility and accountability. We throw those terms away like “it’s your responsibility” but whose accountability? I learned what accountability means in the Navy, not responsibility. I could delegate you my responsibility, but not my accountability. I don’t know where I could’ve learned that lesson. Where does the buck actually stop? That’s what I learned. That was one important lesson. I would say another big lesson in that is this whole area that we talked about today is this journey. Everybody wants to reach a destination point and say that I’ve accomplished this and accomplished that. I don’t know a better set of tools that I could’ve been given that allowed me to have the journey I’ve had. Never knew that at that time. It’s a toolbox. What do you do under rapid fire? What do you do in the middle of the night? What do you do, what do you do, what do you do? Developing game plans, working with people, relying on people. I mean, it’s all there. You could put people through all the exercises, but unless you’ve done that on a consistent consistent basis. I never looked at it, I didn’t spend tours and tours, I wasn’t in hand to hand, but I’m walking away not knowing what you’re asking me today, but as you reflect back I don’t think I could have progressed on the career that I had done without having that. There were some �inspirations, my brother-in-law is retired full-captain. He was unable to make admiral, but he was a fighter pilot off-carrier, there’s a real guy. He stayed and we talked a lot. He was always kind of like, you know, you always have somebody in your family and my wife’s dad, he was the one who stormed the beach. Very quiet, both of them. You’ll learn in your family roots and so service became an important part. I don’t think I looked at service to the country like I look at it today. You can ask me a question and does it bother me what we’re doing? Absolutely. Absolutely. This sense of honor today, I don’t know how anybody even defines it when you see what’s going on. You look at these people that served and as I was saying, one of the most momentous things that I’ve seen recently is this recent PBR broadcast on Memorial Day for an hour and a half. My eyes glistened listening to those stories. Every family, school member, school kid, oughta see that. Only takes an hour and a half out of your life, listen to people. They couldn’t even tell their own stories so they used actors James to tell the stories then they had the people there. These are some that have been maimed for life and yet have rehabilitated themselves. Others that have served but are missing still today. Just wonderful stories about how our country has been built, and we seem to gloss over this today and don’t understand what honor and respect is. [1:44:42] I’m not sure, when you look back on what I experienced, I didn’t see the respect, I saw the honor of serving, but the respect I didn’t necessarily see. One vivid impression that also remains with me is, I told you that I worked for Dow Chemical first. I came out, I was given the opportunity to go to Midland, Michigan for a year and to see whether or not I was fit for duty to serve Dow Chemical. You say “well that’s easy once you’re employed.” The reason why I did that was, I came fully trained. Dow had the best training program of any other chemical company. Why wouldn’t you, if you’re a rookie, want to get trained the best? I stayed in Midland for the better part of a year before they actually allowed me to go talk to anybody. I thought that was kind of neat. What I did, my first job was in the Northeast, which is back where my area is. I remember today, walking into the Dow offices in New York and seeing on the inside of the glass windows burnt children from napalm and people maimed by Agent Orange. I didn’t recover for awhile. I was really, now you know I sort of separate myself from what I had been through, try to get myself--I always used the term, you know, I was taking, after being on active duty and having all these Navy terms, I coined my new part of my life after I left the service even though I was still active, I was “active duty” for civilian life. Well when I first went to work, that bridge fell apart because I’m now working for a company where people are out there every day of the week bringing the company down because they participated with the development of Napalm and Agent Orange. [1:47:25] Of course, when you first are joining Dow, late ‘60s or early ‘70s there’s not really much public about Agent Orange. The pictures were there, you could see the pictures. They were hung when I went in there in 1968, ‘69, the pictures of what Napalm effects had. Napalm you would see. That was immediate. That was there, you could see those pictures followed by. Those pictures were pretty descriptive and so now all of a sudden I have flash memories of a peace I didn’t necessarily see, but were a part. So that created a degree of instability because now you’re serving at home the company who had manufactured this product, what was its role and now it’s like “oh you’re gonna revisit this.” So there was a several year period in there where I had to get my sea legs back together again. I went through the same couple year period of now quite sure what I was �doing, why I was doing it. Fortunately, I was surrounded by some good people that were able to do that. Those flash memories backward with that picture still sit very vivid with me. I just remember walking up that long staircase in the city and it was glass and there are those pictures. And they were actually putting up pictures of the effects of what they made. Alright. Of course, you come back and now it’s like ‘67, then you go to ‘68, ‘69, and so forth, kinda get into the era of the peak of the anti-war movement. Did that register much with you, or did you pay much attention to it? [1:49:07] I did, but I went silent. I got kind of (trails off) I can tell you how I got brought back, it’s really because of Grand Valley and the LZ Vietnam piece. I went silent and there were so many questions that were there about why we did stuff, and we actually probably could’ve, online, come up with some better thoughts. We just knew and wondered why and, of course it’s a lot like, it was a very difficult war to fight because we knew nothing of the territory. I mean it was like, how do you do warfare along a coastline like that where you basically don’t have any experience being there before? It’s kind of like the current situations where you’re now in desert types of conditions but never been there. There was all of that. It was all a question of whether you were actually equipped to do, as we were working with nothing more than what we had previously fought with. We knew there was upgrades in technology, so you wonder where that was. Then you saw the whole issue of purpose. I didn’t really follow the war that greatly was happening south-Be careful with hitting your microphone, by the way. South in Dixie Station and starting to look at that whole area of the whole of the whole fall period, the new documentary that came out. That piece was kind of not there but very historically important, but I didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to it. I just felt like I’d served, I got my feet back on the ground, I stayed in the reserves, I’d done my time, but yet I came to Grand Valley, been there for a while and then all of a sudden what happened was, you know, I got a little bit more in WGVU and then I saw a little bit more about what happened and then the LZ Vietnam came several years ago. I had never been to anything. Nothing. Then all of a sudden I went. It was very interesting, very few Navy people there, but the people I saw again brought back the service side and the pride side of looking at these people who were the combatants. The Marines were there, the Army was there, a few Airforce, not very many Navy. Then all of a sudden you saw the difference really was being made and why the war was fought. It wasn’t from everybody telling it, it was really the experience of what all those went though. [1:51:52] I don’t talk about it at all. I mean, it was a long time just to get to where we are today. I only have a little piece of this whole puzzle. I do think the service to our country is critically important and I’m glad I went through what I did. I know I was prepared, I didn’t quite know what I was being prepared for, but the preparation was there. So I took that after I got my feet re-back on the ground with some others, and I used those experiences very well, but I didn’t wind up with the haunting memories that some have had. Those memories start to come out when you see some of those people like at the LZ Michigan and they’re haunted to this day. I am so thankful to God that I didn’t have those haunting pieces. I mean, that little issue I shared with Dow, that was a flashback. You don’t wanna have too many of those, but I walked away with it with service to the country for a period of time which I learned something that I could use elsewhere. Fortunately, what I learned I was able to use in knowing how to work with people �and trying to get them set in the right direction into my business career. I stayed in the chemical industry for my life. Now it’s kind of interesting because you can talk to people who now are students and say “hey, you’re in the chemical industry” and some of them say “you’re the one” still to this day like “you’re the one that had all the pollutants and everything else.” Perceptions and images follow you and it’s fascinating to me when you talk to people who don’t know anything about the war, what image do you have in perception? And then to some that do. I still think the storytelling is what makes this whole picture the most truthful and representable account that you can find. So I commend you for taking the time in the History Project to get as many of these voices together, because voices left alone don’t necessarily give you the voice you’re looking for. It’s the collective voice that makes the big difference, because we were looking for collective voices and wondered where they were. Why were we being exposed to this? I didn’t even go into, picture this, a little flashback just came. So I’d go into Subic Bay and I knew what pieces of gear we’d need to go back out online or if we’re in a port along the coastline or something, I knew the pieces of gear. I learned the terminology I will never forget called comshaw. You ever heard of the word comshaw? [1:54:50] Don’t think so. It’s to borrow with the intent never to return. So what’s a better word for better word for borrowing with the intent never to return? Steal. From our own people. So you’d go into a supply and you’d look at stuff and if you knew you were gonna need it: take two. So all of a sudden it’s these kinds of scenarios of preparedness. It’s like “well, if you’re not gonna be prepared, I’m certainly gonna be ready.” You don’t learn that in a textbook. This is cultural, behavioral things. There’s a lot on the behavioral side of what you experienced during that time frame that I’ll never, ever, ever, forget. That was just something that came to mind. How do you, do you just put simple requests in? Oh yeah. But how do you really get stuff? You barter, you trade. Okay, that was part of the deal too. Those are all this background of experiences that you all go through, but that’s real life right. You get out online for 30 days, what are you gonna do if something breaks down? You’d better have another one. Specifically if you’re underway replenishing. Can’t wait for another valve to work, you gotta go get it. [1:56:07] Did you learn that kind of thing from the senior enlisted? Absolutely Yeah. They’re very good at that kind of thing. Oh, they were awesome. I don’t think the chief that we had aboard the oiler, I never gave him to this day,I wish I could meet him. I don’t know whether he’s alive today or what. I wish I could’ve thanked him better, cause he made me what I was. I don’t think I ever looked him in the eye and said that, but I sure wish I could. Chief Doyle. Awesome, awesome guy. He was the steady Eddy through all this like “hey tell me how does this really work.” He was there and he was the one that always made that, what we called our division. It was our division. He was the one that could always make that work, he’s in the book. I just look back and I’m saying “boy, if you have to look at somebody who really made this thing go, to your point, it was a senior petty officer. He was as good as it gets. Calm, steady under all conditions and here we are trying to jump around. So that calming influence, not only from Captain Millar, but, I mean you can’t find that. you always hear the other side. I was blessed to have some calming influence to go through what we did. Without it, now you’re in a highly reactive mode. They were being able to proactively put into you what to expect and of course the anticipation if you get it right is half the �game. “What are we gonna get for this next four hour period? What is it gonna really look like?” They were very good at that. Those are all pieces of this journey, but I guess I’d look back on it as a journey. It was one step, and a big one. You’re fresh out of college, and how you learn accountability, responsibility, all of this short order? This is how you do it. Well, I’ll tell you, it makes for a good story so thank you very much for coming and sharing it. You’re welcome. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ChristopherN2129V Title A name given to the resource Christopher, Norman (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-06-19 Description An account of the resource Norman Christopher was born in Ridgewood, New Jersey, in 1943 where he attended local public schools and graduated high school. His father worked as a Hull Secretary for Atlantic Mutual Marine Insurance, influencing Christopher's interest in naval vessels. In 1961, he attended the University of South Carolina for its Naval Reserve Officer Training Course, alongside the study of chemistry, with the idea of possibly making a career out of the Navy. While in college, Christopher was aware of the growing tensions of the Cold War, but remained largely focused on his education. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy put the tensions of the decade into perspective for him, fostering a heightened sense of awareness going forward. He graduated in May of 1965 and went on to attend Nuclear, Chemical, and Biological School in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, which helped clear him as a specialist in the Navy. His first assignment came in the summer of 1965 when he was assigned to the DD724 USS Laffey. an older ship ported in Norfolk, Virginia. He recalled how his first few months of duty were challenging since the turbulence of the sea made his work difficult to complete without developing his 'sea legs.' As an officer, Christopher was then assigned as a Quarter Deck Watch Officer with duties on the bridge as well as elsewhere on the vessel. After his time on the USS Laffey, he attended a course on Cargo Fuel Handling in San Diego, California, before being assigned to the USS Neches. On this new ship, Christopher traveled to the South China Sea and the Gulf of Tonkin during the Vietnam War. He detailed how American naval carriers supported the inland ground forces with aircraft that did most of the fighting while Christopher and his vessel ran refueling missions between ships in the gulf. He also recalled having to occasionally operate in typhoons or enormous waves. While serving on the Neches, his fellow crew members remained largely consistent and Christopher was eventually promoted to Lieutenant JG on the ship. He had great respect for his Captain on the Neches and held many of the other officers in high regard, even though he did not come into close contact with all of them. Christopher also believed he became a better ship handler over time and how homesickness affected some men who had been to sea longer than others. In one instance, his ship was fired upon as a warning to discourage it from drawing closer to shore. In other instances, he recalled how local fishing vessels would travel in close proximity to the American vessels to conduct their work. Christopher did travel into port in locations such as Subic Bay in the Philippines, Da Nang in Vietnam to access the military hospital at the port, as well as in Japan where he briefly became a Navy Military Policeman. Later, noticing how some planes never made it back to their carriers or how others barely made it back, Christopher was given reason to start questioning why the United States was actually in the war. Reflecting upon the greater picture of American naval operations during the war, he analyzed how every branch of the service, class of ship, and crew assignment worked together and cooperated during conflict. Christopher described the situation in Subic Bay as relatively chaotic with large populations of marginalized people, poverty, and pollution. This made the interactions of American servicemen with local civilians tense and often dangerous due to heightened rates of crime, bar fights, and widespread prostitution. When the Neches returned to California, Christopher chose, with the persuasion of his future wife, to not pursue active duty in the Navy as his primary career going forward. In June of 1967, he was released from active duty, remaining in the active reserves, and pursued marriage as well as employment at Dow Chemical Company. While in the Navy Active Reserves, he moved to New Jersey where he became a Lieutenant and Administrative Officer, and then Executive Officer, for his reserve unit before transferring to inactive duty. Ultimately, Christopher decided the Navy was no longer the best career choice for him in favor of pursuing a higher academic degree and was discharged in October of 1982. He concluded that the Navy taught him the value of accountability, intertwining it with lessons on responsibility. He noted how there was an honor in serving, but not overall respect for being a soldier, and how he was haunted for years about imagery of the effects of napalm while working at Dow Chemical. Reflecting upon his service, Christopher was ultimately happy that he served his country. He was also fortunate that memories of combat do not haunt him as they do for many mutilated veterans who served on the ground during the war. Pre-Enlistment: (00:00:33:00) Enlistment/Training: (00:02:05:00) Service: (00:14:45:00) Post-Service Reflections: (01:40:28:00) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christopher, Norman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy. Naval Reserves Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3b2403f8fd28bba1a8721695de97cb3.mp4 476343e5141e47a0f3d4217efc30951e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8ff81399d0fc08b4dad81b34fef03baf.pdf 36098770bcbabe5ce62396d7ee102529 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: -Girls by myself but it worked out. Steve: Was it? Obviously it sounded like it's pretty rough. John: Well you must like the only man in a mother-daughter banquet for Girl Scouts they want me to go on their overnight camping trip to their Girl Scout camp no no no no no yes it was hard sometimes. Steve: Did you have a sister or sister-in-law or some other cousin that would fill in for you? John: I had my parents they live about five miles away they helped out a lot but my brother and sister they were we're scattered all over the country too. Steve: Right so um what are- what do your daughters do for a living you said they- John: One’s a veterinarian. Steve: Well okay. John: One's a doctor an MD and one is a special education teacher for NASA. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Oh wow hmmm, works at Cape Kennedy huh. John: Yes yes I really hate the tugs to put it this way but she has a master's degree in special education and her husband is one of the deputy director of safety for NASA but all the brightest most intelligent people on this earth work for NASA all their kids are a mess. All their kids are screwed up in the head I did I'm sorry I got to say that but they they are. Steve: So do you have grandchildren from her? John: Oh yeah I got grandchildren. Steve: From all three daughters? John: No I got a couple grandsons but no uh I'll get grandchildren also [Unintelligible] I see them all the time, keep in contact with them. [0:00 - 1:58] Steve: Oh that's good. John: I'm up here all by myself in Grand Rapids right now. Steve: Why why Grand Rapids? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Well when I retired I had a place in on camp hall lake for years I was part of that big migration on Friday night from Illinois that would tie up on the expressways eat all the food out the grocery stores that all Michiganders hated well I retired up here and my sister is is lived up here for the last 35 years so I'm close to my sister we will always always been close. Steve: well it sounds like you raised your daughters right being a single parent. John: It was hard two went to the University of Illinois and one went to North Carolina State and they were all smart enough to get into the good schools but they weren't smart enough to get scholarships so uh we had a look at different different avenues and dad made too much money to qualify for grants I didn't like the terms of student loans because it was like a fifty year mortgage so I decided I was making good money well pay as I go and that cost a lot of money but there was only one year when I had all three in school it's several years where I had two but it worked out. [1:59 - 3:34] Steve: Did it all get paid off eventually? John: They were paid as we went. I paid cash every month as it went through school. Steve: Uh-huh that's good. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: I was making money then. Wish I was making that kind of money now but I retired and it's too late now but. Steve: So nowadays what are you doing? John: Oh I paint. I paint just to keep myself occupied. Steve: It keeps you pretty busy don’t it? John: If you- very busy too busy busier than that wannabe. Steve: Alright did you ever help anything out with a Vietnamese refugees at all towards the end of the war or even when you were there? John: We evacuated my squad evacuated a family of Cambodians and okay we we evacuated them out we took them under our wings and got them over to South Vietnam turned turned them over to the refugee people at the fire base we littered them for two and a half almost three weeks we carried their babies and just help them they helped us with a line of food and we said our good-byes at the base and the refugee people took them away and we went our way and we just did we felt like we did something good during the war to save these people from the khmer Rouge Pol Pot. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Now was this between your your missions that you have? John: This was at the end of one of our missions. Steve: End of it okay. John: Yeah at the end of our last mission Oh second-to-last mission. But we we went our separate ways and eighteen years later I bump into these people. Steve: Where at? [3:35 - 5:49] John: I was taking my crane to a place on the west side of far West suburb of Chicago and I bumped into him and in Downers Grove Illinois I parked my crane went and had a cup of coffee and a doughnut because I knew once I get the crane set up I'm going to be there all day and I walked in and people are looking at me I'm looking back and that felt like pins are sticking me all over and on and I and I I left put the coffee and donut down and I went back in and the guy behind the meat meat counter goes yak from Illinois and I knew who they were right away those were that same Cambodian family that we evacuated and turned over to the refugees they were sponsored by a Baptist Church in Downers Grove and they're alive and doing well otherwise �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock they would have been dead by the Khmer Ruth so that's one good thing that I feel I've done out of all that out of that entire war. Steve: Even more so than American POWs? John: It's a close call that's a close one the POWs were military they knew the consequences these poor people were running for their lives. Steve: Right yeah I don't blame you for that that's… [5:50 - 7:26] John: Okay but I bumped into him 18 years later and reason why I said yak from Illinois's there is no J in their vocabulary so they replace it with a Y so it's yak yeah Jack and Illinois I don't know how they got that rather than Illinois but had an S on the end so it's Illinois but I still talk to them I still see them. Exchange Christmas cards and it's here these are Cambodian people's then all speak English they’re all American citizens now they celebrate Thanksgiving they don't know what they're celebrating because everybody else's. Steve: Are they still like Buddhist or whatever religion they were there? John: I think they're all Baptist now. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: They’re all Christian okay yeah. John: Well Christian brought over- they were brought over by a Baptist Church at downers grove yeah they sponsored them and just beautiful people no different than you and me. Steve: And it was a restaurant that you were at? [7:27 - 8:31] John: Oh it was a 7-eleven store. Steve: 7-11 store okay. John: And after after talking with them they owned the Phillips 66 gas station the dry cleaners the laundromat the 7-eleven store they owned the whole city block they really prospered. Steve: I've heard that for a lot of refugees from Southeast Asia. John: Yeah they really prospered. They had a little help but the whole family runs it. Family works everything. Steve: They've given a lot to this country and West Michigan too because I when I did a paper in a foreign relations class like I told you about earlier at Grand Valley my last semester under �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Gerald Ford [Unintelligible] loved West Michigan refugees they they got from Arkansas and I saw a picture of a family that runs the first walk right on out by down the street and I go to them we go to them a couple times a month and here I talked all the time but they were part of the group when they were young children but anyway you said they called you Yak huh? [8:32 - 9:38] John: Yak. Steve: And this because a jack is it? John: Well jack is short for John everybody calls me Jack. Steve: Ok alright so. John: No there is no J in their vocabulary. Steve: So they noticed you right away how they called you Yah. John: yeah they were looking at me you know they were giving me I thought I was getting hit with pins and needles and I left and no I gotta go back in there's something about those people Steve: Oh all right now all the time you were in Vietnam did you rely any faith with God or to get you through this to help people out like you did or. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: I've always been a religious man Roman Catholic and I'm true Christian true believer I just relied on faith for my for my own inner well-being. [9:39 - 10:40] Steve: Sure but it definitely helped you over there. John: Yes. Steve: And and probably afterwards too. John: Yes. Steve: Now when you were over there in 68 that was quite a thing over here too there's two assassinations that year one of them was Robert Kennedy did you hear about that one when you were over there? John: Yes. Steve: How? John: I was back here as much as I was over there. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: How did that make you and the rest of your unit feel? John: Didn't. I just felt sorry for the family I just think it was a terrible thing to happen but it happened nothing to do all I can do is give them my prayers. Steve: Yeah and of course the other one was Martin Luther King the same- John: The same same same thing just felt sorry something like that should’ve never happened...never happen. Steve: Back when you in the service obviously you had known black soldiers did you ever have any with you that went on these missions or..? John: Yeah, several. Steve: Okay so you became- John: Maybe a third of our unit was black our unit consists of 120 people that's all we called ourselves a battalion but we were actually company size okay. [10:41 - 12:07] �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: So yeah it's uh years ago of course before 1947 they were all segregated and of course there you trained with them stuff like I did too and I think that was one of the best things that this nation can do is integrate the armed forces you know and so obviously they're a big contribution what you were doing over there without a doubt and they got hit hard too with Kennedy and King's assassination too and some Vietnam vets they comforted their friends that were black on especially with King's assassination did you have any black friends that you talked to that we're really down about it or didn't you guys even talked about it? John: We talked about it but these were people that we- we relied on each other for sole survival okay so we just gave our condolences and said prayers and that's all we could do. Steve: Yeah that's true. John: When Robert Kennedy died oh I was depressed I could you know he was our Attorney General and but everybody consoled everybody else every time something happened I think anything any death in family. [12:07 - 13:29] Steve: Now as far as women in the military did you see any women nurses a lot over there in ‘Nam? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Oh yes there were a lot of women nurses a lot of them they weren't allowed in the combat areas they were back in the major cities well protected but they were never in there never in the combat zones never in the fire bases. Steve: Right but they were definitely some some something that was needed over there for the for the troops and I'm not just saying that because they were women either understand why they did their job. John: They they played a very important job they kept a lot of people alive yeah yeah. Steve: So um so in 69 when Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin got on the moon the first time were you still over ‘Nam when that happened? John: I was stateside when that happened. Steve: How did you feel about that? [13:30 - 14:24] John: I thought it was wonderful I thought it's just great we made it to the moon we actually made it to the moon and Kennedy said you do it in ten years and he did it. Steve: Yeah he did. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Even though he was long gone but. Steve: Well he set it in motion him and his brother and a lot of other people too of course but um John: But I thought I was glued to that TV set really glued to it. Steve: See it a lot a lot of people in the armed forces including myself even years later because all those astronauts were former military. John: Yeah some of them were still military. Steve: yeah they were yeah yeah they were. John: They were most of them were Air Force they're all Colonels or general no Colonels I think there were Lieutenant Colonel's. Steve: Or Navy somewhere Navy pilots you know but uh. John: Oh no I was I was ecstatic over that I thought that was a great thing that ever happened made it to the moon Wow. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Does it pretty uplifting for the whole US Army all the troops and stuff? John: Yes it was yeah it was. Steve: And this country definitely needed it for the war and not just for the war before I just mentioned the assassinations in 68 we definitely needed it as a country that's for sure and I feel like it brought us together a little bit too it really did but anyway moving on here the president's that you served under and didn't serve under I normally go through this if you don't want to come in on this you don't have to but how did you feel with each president I go through how they were to the military first of all Johnson you don't want to answer you don't have to. [14:25 - 16:12] John: Johnson inherited a mess with the military that's all that's- he inherited a mess about- he didn’t have much to work with. Steve: Mm-hmm, what about Nixon? John: Nixon I thought was was pretty good he actually got us out of Vietnam the only thing Oh No different wrong person Oh Nixon Nixon was okay he just got it got caught up in Watergate otherwise I think he was a great person except for Watergate. Steve: Mm-hmm Gerald Ford? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: That's the one that I have bitter feelings about is what was his first presidential what he called declaration or action. Steve: Action wasn't it pardoning Nixon? John: No it was giving amnesty to all the people that ran to Canada. Steve: That's right yeah we'll get into that later but- John: I resent that because I was drafted and I went I didn't run in these guys got a free pass and they come back with nothing nothing held against them no didn't like that but as for being Gerald Ford I understand he's from Greene from Grand Rapids but… Steve: How do you think he handled the end of the Vietnam War in the military he was only in almost the same time Kennedy was just under his time. John: I don't know I don't know it was a little after my doing my my time I I don't know can't answer that one. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: See a lot of presidents before and after Johnson were affected by the Vietnam War I know if you knew that or not. How about Jimmy Carter you don't have to get anything else I'm just talking about them in the military that's all you know. John: Jimmy Carter was just a nice man okay I'm not going to say anymore you know he was a nice man he was, he still is. [16:12 - 18:18] Steve: He still is yeah. Ronald Reagan? John: He was Pro military pro-military go Ronald. Steve: Yeah do you think he brought this nation back up to respectability. John: Yes I think so. Steve: Mm-hmm from the Vietnam War the scars from the war and yeah. John: Yeah I think he he did wonders there. Steve: He was my favorite commander-in-chief when I was in the military uh George Bush Senior? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: I think I think daddy Bush was pretty good too. Steve: When the Desert Storm happened he made a promise that this wasn't gonna be another Vietnam did you think it was gonna be one or did you think he was gonna follow his promise or what did you think? John: Actually I think he followed his promise after the fifth day cause he pulled our troops back wasn't our objective objective was to get Saddam and we didn't we didn't find him in five days so he pulled the troops back. Steve: His main objective was to free Kuwait. But if they could get Saddam Hussein was… John: No they did that yeah I was thinking the second Bush. Steve: Yeah we'll get him later okay yeah. John: Yeah Kuwait was a NATO country and Saddam invaded and that was the main objective but he was also going to get Saddam and he backed that off of that because he couldn't find him in the first five or six days. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Well something like that and also it would have ruined the coalition or the allied thing with the other Muslim nations that was part of it too you know we all know about Bill Clinton okay um I served under him you know in in the military myself in the National Guard I feel that without saying anything bad bottom you know I felt he served this country like he he wanted to serve it and he didn't you know beat around the bush too much you know regardless of anything that happened in his administration as far as military goes how do you think without even thinking about Vietnam how do you think he actually handled the military without even bringing anything up about Vietnam we all know that he didn't go to Vietnam we all know that. [18:19 - 20:47] John: I guess he did an job okay I think he could have used the military a little bit more in certain events or something I think he did okay. Steve: Okay George W Bush? John: I think he was a pussy through the whole thing but he was relentless on making Saddam abide by the agreement that he made like the Iraqi people or the Iraqi air force or whatever it was left of it flying into Saudi air space or the no-fly zone and he did go after them and other than that I think he was a pushover he did that much. Steve: How do you feel he handled the the whole thing after 9/11 do you think he did right by military aspects? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Don't know because nobody knew, okay nobody really knew. Steve: It's a different type of war terrorism it's not going after one nation like we've been used to doing and he even said that you know it's… [20:48 - 22:17] John: that's that's an area of politics and I just never never really got interested in. Steve: We all know that Barack Obama's administration's the one who got Osama bin Laden just briefly what do you think Obama was as far as running military? John: Terrible. Steve: Okay that's all well say okay he did make the authorization to get Osama bin Laden and we'll leave it that okay but he did serve eight years just like any other president well some some served less than that but he did serve the way he wanted to serve and stuff like that so i feel in that aspect people who voted him in he did good for them same with clinton and anybody else that has been elected so anyway now back to all the the movies about vietnam we'll get to the fake ones first and we have we have a good laugh me and some vietnam vets have good laughs and other people service about the rambo the chuck norris movies what did you honestly think about those movies when they came out? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: I thought they were very comical really i I couldn't just very comical very untrue they're just trying to build Chuck Norris or Sylvester up to being some superhero superhero or Arnold Schwarzenegger he was in a couple war movies just claude van damme. Steve: Yeah Kung Fu the whole nation down. [22:18 - 24:10] John: It's a thousand gun shooting at them not one bullet hits them why do you take that one bow and arrow and go 500 people or you throw a hand grenade and this big explosion of fireball okay grenades don't do that but people don't know that, they don't know that. Steve: Now the first movie I feel most people feel that gave a true depiction of Vietnam was the Oliver Stone movie platoon. John: Yes very true. Steve: Tell me. John: Very more just more accurate. Steve: Was it emotional did you see the movie? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: I saw the movie. Steve: Was it emotional for you to see it the first time. John: it wasn't emotional it's just that I came out going that that was a good movie it showed how things really were no that was I think that was the first one that ever had napalm and napalm explosions or how they dropped it you know and I was wondering how in the hell did he get a hold of something to do that. Steve: Yeah it's a Hollywood mistake but I think for the most part of this book but more the first not just Vietnam movies but any war movies that told the real star instead of having a one-man John Wayne type Armia you know it's the John Wayne movies I still watch them you know and I still they're entertaining but let's face it they're not realistic and obviously the Rambo Chuck Norris movies are even worse they can’t even be realistic but anyway the latest movie that remember the Vietnam is we were soldiers by Mel Gibson did you see that? John: That was great that was good. Steve: Do you think the movies are getting better as far as not just Vietnam but as far as any movie like Saving Private Ryan I don’t know if you've seen that or. John: I've seen that. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock [24:11 - 25:56] Steve: Okay do you thinkJohn: I thought that was an excellent movie excellent. Steve: So do you think the movies that Hollywood portraying gets better to more realistic events instead of superhero type movies? John: Yeah I really good trying to make it more more realistic. Steve: So do you think that the Morris this time for Chris's they'll get even better you think? John: I hope so. Steve: Yeah alright let me see. John: Yeah it's not as good as lost in space but. Steve: Oh speaking of which back during that time when you were you know during the late 60s and stuff what was your favorite TV shows of the time? John: Oh wow. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: That does that kind of set the tone for the whole decade too with Vietnam war and everything. John: Smothers Brothers, just like that they were very political oh wow Oh laughin laughin. Steve: A lot of Vietnam vets like that laughing. John: Yes you're researching brain cells that haven't been touched in many many years here. Steve: It doesn't bother you does it? John: No no no no I just kind of think of some of these fellas. Steve: You mentioned lost in space you like that all? John: I just it does not compute Will Rogers and dr. Smith oh yeah and I was so realistic. Steve: What about like funny sold besides laugh and like say Gilligan's Island Beverly Hillbillies. [25:57 - 27:45] �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: I used to watch Beverly Hills I don't know why I think it was Ellie Mae no she was so sexy to me back in the 60s Wow. Steve: Now what about like it still comes on today while still come back on, still they make movies about Star Trek. John: I like the I like Star Trek as the TV series I like the first couple of movies but I've I've been drawing away from that Steve: You think shows like that and laughin and the other shows you mention too you think they were significant at the time to helped a lot of you soldiers out over there that for entertainment wise you know the genre or whatever you know. John: We did have a lot Oh especially over in Vietnam there weren't that many normal TV shows there they were they're all comedy all the shows that were that they sent over there were comedy just and I think it's just still uplift the humor of the people. Steve: Did it? [27:46 - 28:53] �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: I don't know I was never there long enough to see any other shows but they would talk about all the time you know Dean Martin had a a good fellow with a lot of comedy in it I watched it back stateside but boy they're rampant and ravin about it over there yeah. Steve: I have to stop you just for a second here. [Brief Pause] hello we're back again with Mr. John Chenard and we're just gonna finish up this interview here I've learned a lot thanks to John here telling us very much about part of Vietnam a lot of us don't know about us and stuff and just a few more quick questions and we'll be done thank you very much for that answering all these questions too I appreciate it and so is Grand Valley and so do everybody else is gonna watch this the refugees the Cambodian refugees that you talked about that you helped and some were Vietnamese were they. John: No they're all Cambodian. Steve: Cambodian okay you mentioned a little bit earlier that they doing great and stuff like that how do you feel towards uh how did you feel the time when they got over here did you did you think they were gonna make a living over here or did you think they were gonna make it being away from a strange in a strange country or. [28:53 - 30:24] John: I really can't answer that I didn't know because we left them in South Vietnam and I did they were turned over to the refugee people and I did not I had no idea what was going to �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock happen to them we just got in this a safe territory and long and behold 20 years later they're here in the United States a happy ending for them and me. Steve: Mm-hmm um do you feel the US government at the time could have done more to get more refugees out to help the United States out over there what do you think they did all they could do? John: I think they did all they could do their hands were tied to a point everybody's hands were tied I think they did a good job they probably could have helped more but they had they did help a lot they did a lot of people came over. Steve: You know who was behind all that? John: No. Steve: President Ford. John: President Ford. [30:25 - 31:27] Steve: Yep I found out for my research in my paper I did on Vietnamesse refugees that he pushed Congress to get it going to get the money for the refugee camps and stuff. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Well sorry gerald I might look at you a little different now. Steve: That's okay that is true I found out from his library and everything that it did research on I I didn't either um. John: I love this library. I've been there several times. Steve: Or do you mean the museum or- John: The Presidential Museum. Steve: Yeah see the library the museum are in two afferent spots oh yeah see- John: First down here on- Steve: Yeah that's the museum yeah it's a great museum yeah and it's good spot where him and his wife Betty are buried too the library is down ann arbor at University of Michigan where he went to school played football and stuff um that one right there is the only Presidential Library Museum that's separate all the others like Nixon Carter Reagan Clinton FDR Eisenhower Truman all them their libraries are right by each other but Ford wanted that �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock separately done at the University of Michigan so anyway basically he had to fight Congress to get it going because they were gonna deny that but believe it or not there was two senators leading the way against that one of his Patrick Leahy I don’t know if you ever heard of him the other one you know he was just left our vice president Joseph Biden really yes that is a fact he did yeah but there was a lot of animosity back then towards Vietnam for obvious reasons I'm not saying that Mr. Biden did or Leahy did and stuff but they that is a fact they were leading the way that no we can't spend any more money over there but then Ford brought it up like what we spend a lot of money for the Jewish people to get them over here from the Holocaust in World War two and the Cuban refugees when they became communist to in the late fifties early sixties you know so then okay that's that help get it going money which helped the camps here in America for it and stuff and but overall you think it's a good thing that what we did for the refugees yes it is I feel myself were a better nation for that myself and that right there we mentioned earlier to about I know being a VFW member myself the VFW magazine shows former Vietnam vets going over to Vietnam and you mentioned earlier you would like to do that. [31:28 - 34:02] John: I’d like to go back over there. Steve: Sure how would you feel towards the Vietnamese people if they welcomed you over there ? John: No animosity against that no none, I’d feel fine. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Most Vietnam vets I've talked to they want to make the journey back there even though I know one of them they took to a memorial towards there they call it a victory over the Americans they got their pictures right there like you said no animosity a big deal you know I said you know but it was quite a I guess closure for them it's what it looks like. John: Closer it was something that happened 40 years ago it's time you get over it. Steve: Yeah how did you feel about the Vietnam wall when it came up in DC have you ever been to it? John: Yes I've been to the one in DC I hadn't been to the traveling wall. Steve: I've been a traveler once but what do you think about the the wall in DC? John: I think it's I think it's wonderful it's a beautiful thing. Steve: You do know that a Vietnamese woman designed that don't you? John: No I did not. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Mya Lim. John: You're telling me things I didn't know. Steve: Matter of fact if she did the Rosa Parks Circle down here too. Now I don't know if she was a refugee or if she's former Vietnamese I'd have to look that up but. John: You know whether their former Vietnamese or that that doesn't make a difference don't no difference to me there's still a human being we got to get along with everybody and if she's making a not a political statement but a something for the good of all I'm for it. Steve: Yep um how do you feel towards the whole thing happened 40 years ago do you think you mentioned political stuff I mean our hands were tied they're real was there any real rate we could have actually even done anything over there besides get the refugees out or what do you think as far as political stuff goals in that whole situation over there? [34:02 - 36:22] John: If we would have gone all balls out we could end it very quickly our government just didn't want to do that for some political reason I don't know but when we get what every time we get into wars it's just a little shove and push match we don't go in there to win. Steve: You think it started with Korea? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: No I don't think no Vietnam didn't start with Korea. Steve: No I'm talking do you think little pushing and instead of going all out do you think it started with Korea that we went like halfway or whatever you're talking about? John: I don't I don't know when we dropped the bomb that's when we let the whole world know we mean business I'm not saying dropping the bomb again but let them know we mean business. [36:23 - 37:27] Steve: Right one quick question John F Kennedy I don't I'm sure you remember him obviously this is actual fact on CBS News you can look it up on YouTube on the computer he said a month before he was assassinated soon before he was assassinated that the Vietnamese people are going to have to do this themselves we can't go in there full force and and do this has to be their fight do you think if Kennedy would have lived on this is just speculation nn your part and stuff he wouldn't have escalated as much. John: I don't know I don't don't remember that statement I'm not sure he said it but I'm not doubting your word but wasn't it the French that got us into. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Yeah it goes all the way back actually I did another research paper in American history Vietnam goes back to Franklin Roosevelt and on that the whole Vietnam mess was and he was going to try and keep the French out after the Japanese surrendered and stuff like that after was gonna get him cuz he died before the Japanese or even the Germans surrendered FDR did and but of course we never know that either like Kennedy what would happen and then Truman basically let the French go back there because they were our allies during World War two and you know I guess Ho Chi Minh sent him letters to help get the French out but he ignored him because it's you know they’re our allies like thing so it goes yeah it did get started by the French. [37:28 - 39:01] John: I was gonna say it goes back years before that. Steve: Sure yeah but anyway um thank you very much for this interview anything else you'd like to add on that you'd like to say or not say or? John: No no if anybody has any kind of question I'll gladly answer if I can I'm not afraid to talk about any of my experiences over there some people don't wanna relive their past it doesn't bother me it doesn't bother me it was just something that I had to do at the time whether I did good or bad it got done. Steve: Well from my perspective you did good. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Thank you. Steve: You did good with American POWs and with a Cambodian refugees. John: The Cambodian refugees sends chills up and down my spine because I I can actually see something good of what we did and we weren't supposed to bring them back that was a no-no we did we got our asses reamed for that and but they're doing well. Steve: That's right in the long run it worked out and I want to thank you very much for your service again and thank you very much for this interview okay thank you very much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ChenardJ2115V2 Title A name given to the resource Chenard, John (2 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-26 Description An account of the resource John Chenard was born in Chicago Heights, Illinois, in 1948 and was drafted into the Army in 1967. Chenard attended both basic and advanced infantry training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, before being sent to Fort Benning, Georgia, for Airborne training as well as Ranger School near the Panama Canal. For his first deployment, he was selected to run small search-and-rescue operations in and out of Vietnam, recieving several bullet wounds during this action. Chenard's return to the United States was rocky, as crowds threw things and yelled at him. For his service, he earned a variety of metals, including 4 Purple Hearts, became a guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and was a part of the decorated Army Drill Team. He also mentions crossing paths with several Cambodian refugees in the United States he had not seen since his service in Vietnam. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chenard, John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hammond, Steve (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c21418d69fa2e9ce3a93d1a1f08b8e35.mp4 9e89a6b8e19eb47d462664b38a6ae4f0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abc193d55758172a69e264b6bb275814.pdf c7fd78aa81a2ca2749fe87fcab2d69fd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Hello my name is Steve Hammond and I represent the Grand Valley State University veterans history project today we have the privilege of interviewing Mr. John Chenard and he was a Vietnam War veteran. He has quite a story to tell but first before we get into your military service John tell me when you were born and where you were born. John: I was born in Chicago Heights Illinois in 1948 Steve: Um could you tell me about your parents? John: well they're both dead now but I I had great parents my dad was a barber his entire life had a gigantic barber shop 13 chairs at one time my mother was just a dedicated housewife she was just a beautiful fantastic woman Steve: um trying to think any brothers and sisters? John: I have an older sister and a younger brother. Steve: Yeah well what did they do for a living? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: My older sister is retired she's up here in the Grand Rapids area and my younger brother he's down in Florida trying to survive. Steve: Hmm okay all right um how was a life growing up in that area? John: it was good it was good many activities from programs for kids growing up there and bought my first second third house down there and it was just good living. Steve: What uh where'd you go high school at? John: Crete Monee high school. Steve: Mm-hmm how was that? John: Yeah little redneck little little town high school about it and it's still that way now. Steve: You were born in 48 right? John: Yes. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Okay now when did you decide to go into the military? Were you drafted? [0:00-2:01] John: I really had no choice I was drafted okay and I went in in 67 didn't take long to draft was held on January 1st I believe or December. Steve: Of what year? John: Although every year they had a lottery. Steve: Okay. John: And mine the number I drew for June 23rd was number 8 so I think was the first of January they they did the draft draft. Steve: Mm-hmm. John: And I was in the Army by February 8th I believe it was. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Okay did you explain more about this lottery draft because a lot of people don't know about that. John: they drew numbers they people who qualified to be drafted was drafted by the way the numbers came up versus their birth date of birth so what if they had 365 balls in the basket and they draw one first one would be January 1 second ball regardless of what month or year or month was and it would be January 2 I had February 8th so it didn't take too long for them to get to me. Steve: Um where was your basic training at? John: Fort Polk Louisiana. Steve: Ok how was that, how was the training? John: Well it's a rude awakening from civilian life to military life but it was okay it was okay and took it down there in the spring so it wasn't too bad. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: now maybe next military they told us years later in the mid-80s when I took my basic training that if this was wartime they would cut from eight weeks to four weeks is that what they did with you? John: No, no at all. [2:02 - 3:57] Steve: How long was basic training? John: Eight weeks. Steve: Okay. John: Eight weeks. Steve: Okay they must have changed it after that then that's what they told us but anyway uh your advanced training what did you do? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Fort Polk I was in the infantry. Steve: Okay so you 11 Bravo. John: 11 11 Bravo yes. Steve: Okay how was that? John: It was a little harder a little bit more aggressive training. Steve: Mm-hmm. John: A little bit more anti- enemy training. Steve: Yeah. John: Teach you how to eliminate the enemy in several different ways. Steve: Yeah, could you describe that just briefly or. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Oh bayonet training we fired 50 caliber machine guns nothing everybody gets a chance to fire 50 caliber machine-gun I went through 2 live hand grenades climbed up rope towers walk through swamps with snakes. Steve: Poisonous? John: Bugs oh yes we're in Louisiana yes. Steve: Did anybody get bitten? John: No. [3:58 - 5:10] Steve: Okay. John: No snakes are afraid of us it just as much as we were them. Steve: Yeah that's what I've heard I've never I've been down south I never lived down there but my relatives and friends have always told me that. John: Yeah they wrote they there won't be no human contact. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Right what about Gators? were they they down there? John: Never saw a gator. Steve: Okay all right so well this is still 68 or or 67 is it gonna be or is it close to 68 now? John: No it's still 67. Steve: Okay now after that uh your MOS training military occupational specialty after that training where'd you go? John: To Fort Benning Georgia for Airborne training. Steve: Hmm tell us about that? John: Well you learned how to jump out of a perfectly perfectly good airplane and I still wonder why I did that not quite sure but no they teach all the facets of learning how to jump out of a plane properly with a static landing no freefall. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: How was that doing it for the first time? John: Uh everybody had to get pushed out of the airplane okay once he get up 1,500 feet you're going along a couple hundred miles an hour you you look at things differently and the guy behind you he's just told to push you. Steve: Oh so wow so everybody behind pushed each other. John: That's right. Steve: And what the last person wasn't one of the… John: There was somebody at the door for survival. [5:10 - 6:41] Steve: So when you were out I never was an airborne but when you when you went off when did you know how to pull the cord for you know? John: You didn't. Steve: Oh you didn't? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: You were hooked on with a static line. Steve: Okay. John: When you jumped out of the door the static line would pull your chute out and open it for you. Steve: Okay oh okay that's interesting it solves basically I was right away. John: Yep. Steve: Your chute open and stuff. John: Yeah you're flying about 1,500 feet so the chute opens very quickly and you're on the ground in five six seconds. Steve: What has it ever been where there are some kind of mix-ups there that nobody's dead or…? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: No. Steve: Okay. John: No, everything is those chutes are all packed under strict supervision and no everything's nobody gets hurt if you don't roll when you hit the ground you might sprain an ankle or something they teach how to land also. Steve: Oh so training was pretty good in Airborne School? John: Yeah it fun. Steve: Well what after that after you're airborne trained? John: Well while I was an Airborne School they approached me about Ranger School because my basic and AIT[6:42 - 7:55] Steve: Mm-hmm. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: -Scores were so so high so I signed up for Ranger and I went through the Ranger training program that was 12 weeks at that time and there you jumped out of helicopters at 15,000 feet and there are you your free fall then you open up a halo shoot and for the new people they had an altimeter that they wore that started beeping when they got so low on you then that's your cue to open your chute otherwise the older guys they just knew how to do it. Steve: They had that much experience so they could know... John: Oh yeah. Steve: Wow. John: I've had about a hundred jumps total so I don't need an altimeter anymore. Steve: Okay. John: But I don't jump out of perfectly good helicopters or airplanes anymore either. Steve: Yeah well that's pretty nice so after your Ranger training that was that still Fort Benning there? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Uh that was all over those Panama, Costa Rica Air Force Base in Florida… that was 45 years ago I can't remember the name of the base. Steve: You're good. John: It's on the Panhandle. Steve: Probably either Tyndale or Pen… I can't remember but it's there's a Navy Air Force Base right there. [7:56 - 9:15] John: Yeah. Steve: Yeah anyway um how was the countries of Panama Costa Rica did you get to see any of it? John: No. Steve: Did you get to interact with anybody there? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: No, we had special camps down there military reservations. Steve: Hmm. John: And that's where we did all of our training and had no contact with the locals at all no. Steve: You think that was good? John: Probably yeah it wouldn't interfere with our training. Steve: Yeah, so you're talking about 1968 now pretty much? John: yeah well 67 I'm still 67. Steve: Okay did you have to see the Panama Canal? John: No. Steve: Okay. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Yeah. Steve: How close were you? John: You know probably 75 80 miles. Steve: Okay you're quite a ways actually. John: Yeah. [9:16 - 10:08] Steve: Alright so after all that training when did you get the orders to leave the country to go overseas? John: Mm-hmm when I was done with my Ranger training. Steve: Okay alright. John: Didn't uh yeah well let's backtrack first of all I was sent to Washington DC not overseas. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Uh-huh. John: But I was assigned to the First Ranger Battalion that went overseas every couple weeks went back and forth. Steve: Mm-hmm, and then you got picked for one of them? John: Yeah. Steve: Okay alright uh how was that when you were chatting over there when you first what Vietnam how did you feel? John: Nervous they never know what you're expecting you're always heard all about the terriblest atrocities and the war stories from people come back but it was a was a chilling experience because you didn't know what to expect really. Steve: Sure. John: We did notice the first thing we got off the plane the heat the heat was just terrible in the humidity. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Hmm. John: But we had we we went back and forth to do one specific mission it wasn't a black op or wasn't anything like that we were hand-picked to go do one specific job and that was it when that job was done we'd come back come or come back to the base come back to the United States go right back to Fort McNair U.S.. Army Headquarters, that’s that was my duty assignment. Steve: And that's in DC right? John: DC yes. [10:09 - 11:54] Steve: okay could you tell me about those what do you call those missions or whatever? John: They were just specific search and seizure missions we were assigned to go extract POWs. Steve: Okay, American or…? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: American. Steve: Or South Vietnamese? John: No any well basically American. Steve: Okay. John: The fighter pilots they were flying over wherever they were dropping bombs they had cameras going all the time and they would pass over an area or close to an area that could have possibly been a POW camp and another pilot would go go by and take another picture and they decided well yeah that probably is definitely a POWs camp so then they would stick a ranger squad go in there and determine whether it is or not and if it was if they could take control of it or go back get more help there was no radio contact no radio contact at all well we were out there on our own but we were trained for that. Steve: Did you uh run into the enemy at all? John: Very very seldom we ran into more villagers and common people non-combatants as they would call it and we just tried to avoid everybody. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: yeah did you ever have to interact with any and locals when you did that or you just guys just went in and around them. John: We tried to avoid them. Steve: Okay. John: If there were if we actually were detected or intertwines and our paths actually cross there there are other ways that we rather not talk about that one. Steve: No problem no problem so in other words you just avoided them? [11:55 - 13:52] John: Yes. Steve: At all cost. John: At all cost. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Okay how many each time you had a mission there did you get how many POWs did you get out on an average? John: On an average about 20. Steve: That's pretty good. John: About 20 and that was on four different occasions. Steve: Mm-hmm. John: We brought back 20, 28 I think was the most and I think the least was 21 I think yeah. Steve: Those are pretty good numbers. John: Yeah. Steve: So they were in these camps right these POW camps so you would actually have to would you sneak in or would you have to actually have a small firearms combat or. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: It wasn't a small firearms combat we would detect the camp we would encase the camp we would they have no contact they did not know we're there we were just watching their movements. Steve: Mm-hmm. John: And then at a certain time specified time that we all agreed on we all hit we were all in our position, we knew where all the enemy was and we just shot them one by one we knew exactly where they were in ten seconds it was all over. Steve: And then you just went in and. John: Got them all in and got them out and started heading it back. [13:53 - 15:13] Steve: now of course I hear all kinds of stories too and the public sees all kinds of movies to where the action, what kind of cells were they in were they bamboo type things or what were they in, our POWs. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Yes there they were very primitive most done were taking over villages and they were grass huts most of them were on with most of the POWs were on leaders so they couldn't run off either way you could had things around their necks or things around their ankles. Steve: Mmm. John: And fifty foot cable enough to hit the latrine enough to move but that was it there was no concrete cells it was far from being a prison. Steve: Bamboo bars and all none of that stuff? John: Yes, oh their perimeter fencing was made of sticks. Steve: Okay. John: Sticks tied together that. Steve: Was the bamboo stuff kind of Hollywood type stuff. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Yeah we see sticks trees branches leaves it wasn't it wasn't I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. Steve: Whatever the environment there was? John: There were no concrete walls they don't… were very primitive. Steve: Okay. John: Very primitive people. Steve: So when you took when you did your took the guards out will say it was easy going there and getting them out. John: Yes it was. Steve: Okay. Very easy. [15:14 - 16:46] John: Very easy. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: The Americans the POWs when you saw them I know that what their reaction would be but were a lot of them abused were they or can you say malnutrition? John: More malu- you malnutrition and lack of medical. Steve: Okay. John: But I don't I don't think any of were really abused they weren’t beaten. Steve: Not tortured or nothing? John: No no. Steve: Could you tell me the reaction of the first ones that saw you? John: Oh they were just totally ecstatic they knew who we were right away that there's such a different sound of the rifles we were used in comparative our enemy combatants and they knew they didn’t even see us they know we were there. Steve: Wow, so would you have to identify yourself to them when you come up to. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: No. Steve: Okay. John: They know who we were. Steve: Alright yeah that's good. John: What took you so long shut up or we’ll leave yeah. Steve: How long were some of them there was someone there longer than others? John: Yes some were there longer than others they traded a lot of people off throughout the throughout the whole war but some of them died some of them died in custody but they were they were they were alive their spirits weren't broken and they wanted to go home we brought them back. [16:47 - 18:20] Steve: how far did you have to go before you got to the nearest base? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: About 200 miles and we did that all on foot. Steve: So did you have to carry some of them? John: most of this was done in Laos and we were never in Laos. Steve: Hmm so did you have to carry them at all or get a stretcher? John: Some um we did we had carry no no no stretchers or anything like that they two people helping them with walking out. Steve: Well well did you run into the enemy at all going back? John: Very seldom we ran into the enemy we ran into more village people villagers, common people and how we did what we had to do to get to keep going. Steve: Sure I understand. John: There was one time we ran into no we didn't run into but you remember who Pol Pot was? He was.. or the Khmer Rouge �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: I've heard of that yeah. John: Okay that's like a left-wing army of the North Vietnamese Army renegade guerilla type type type type tactics and if the leader was Pol Pot and our paths cross their paths one time never had contact with them no battle contact but we knew they were there and they didn't know we were there so we just laid low waited for them to leave down there they're an army of 150,000 people and. Steve: The Vietcong. John: Yeah apart Khmer Rouge. We were six, see I've got Steve: Just six in one platoon? John: Six six people is quiet there's flying well six seven or eight people who go in and extract these POWs no more. [18:21-20:14] �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Why was the six a good number to get them in and out and how do people know that there would be so successful was six instead of like fifteen or twenty. John: Our training less number less detected our cover would have been a lot better the lesser numbers you are and we were trained to take out a lot of people and didn't need anymore. Steve: Hmm yeah you still average between 21 and 28 American POWs out of there and were- John: The six of us could take out twenty to thirty guards in just a few seconds because we knew where they all worked. Two o'clock in the morning we knew where everyone was and just pew in one shot and take them out. Steve: Did you ever have to use any like grenades or anti-tank weapons or anything like that just all small arms. John: Small arms we carried M14s rather than 16, they’re… they were more accurate most of what muzzle velocity was greater more accurate as we used it more like a sniper what this my sniper rifle we had Twilight scopes. Steve: Hmm okay. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Just there was something new. Steve: Tell me about that or tell us about the Twilight scopes. John: Well you you could pick up heat signals at night you look through the lens since it's green and you can the heat from the… Steve: Body. John: People's body is warmer than the tree or the ground around them and you could see their outline so you knew exactly where they were you tell if they were taking a shower they were sleeping you could you could see it you you could pick up the heat signal through grass huts you can see them sleeping there so we just aim for that. Steve: Now how did you know all the grass huts that they were sleeping in compared to the POWs. John: Oh the POWs are always out there they were always out in the open. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock [20:15 - 22:21] Steve: Can you tell us more about that? John: Of the sub some of them some of the pens that they had they herded them in things like pig pens some of the Pens were and had covers on them but the sides were always open and people the enemy in the guard towers around but they really weren’t guard towers they were trees with platforms on them and very crude but they would they they saw they could see the POWs at any time there weren't any building. Steve: Hmm so what the kind of animals did you run any you've gone there back that would be like hurtful to you like it was it was there Cobras over there, poisonous snakes? John: Threy were poisonous snakes but they we never had any problem with snakes our biggest problems were leeches if we had to walk through a creek or a river you always came out full of leeches all over you and you just walked through this Creek waist deep for 30 seconds and he'd come out and you know leeches all over you you know really terrible but spiders not spider bites but nothing - nothing deadly a big problem with wild boars wild boars would detect you and they would they come snooping and they felt threatened they would they would charge you. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Sharp teeth sharp tusks. John: Tusks teeth I'm pretty sure they had pretty good teeth we never ran across any but I've heard nightmare stories about people who have and you got to get the boar otherwise the boar is going to get you. Steve: Now say like did you run any on your way to a POW camp that would give your position away at all? John: No, no we didn't run into any boars no I didn't other other members of the the group did I no I never ran in any any boars. Steve: So 200 miles you average between 21 and 28 POWs just the six of you. John: Yes. Steve: How long did it take you to get back to an American base? John: Three to four weeks. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: What did you do for food and water? [22:22 - 24:43] John: We were we learned how to scavenge there's there's rice everywhere out there rice everywhere so many good vegetable plants that grows in the wild we also had lurps, concentrateded meals in a squeeze packet to go on that they have they call it something else now I'm not sure what they call it now back then they called them Iurps and we survived. Steve: Water did you get it from the streams? John: Water was everywhere. Steve: Was it. John: Water was everywhere. Steve: Were there any plants that were actually not good for you that you ate from or? John: No we knew what plants we could eat from but wild vegetables grew everywhere out there and you just have to learn how to eat a sweet potato raw. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Yeah um what kind of vegetables besides a sweet potato were there? John: Uh Tomatoes you know the the local people they grow they grow everything that they eat and we could pilfer pilfer their gardens. Steve: Well you gotta do what you got to do to survive especially bringing POWs that many through and I'm sure they are probably glad to get something to eat. John: Yeah determination and willpower with far more important than putting food in your stomach they well we did to no there are times when we'd just eat one piece of food all day long but we just had the willpower to keep on going we're gonna get back home. Steve: Now when you got them to a base what was the reaction of the your commanding officers and NCOs at the base and the reaction of your POWs when you first came on to the base? John: They were all very they welcomed everybody with open arms we were like a Suicide Squad when once we left that base they thought they'd never see us again you know then a month later here we come back with whole bunch of people and they were just very very thankful they rushed them right off to medical medical before they were even debriefed we went �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock in we had to turn over our cameras we took a lot of pictures and we had to turn over our cameras we were debriefed then we got a chance to clean up and eat ourselves and we sometimes we had a chance to say goodbye to the POWs sometimes we didn't put us back on a c-130 and back to the States. [24:44 - 27:40] Steve: So how much time did you have between each mission? John: Maybe a month month and a half so I had a 30-day leave every 30 days. Steve: Was it enough for you to go to the next mission? John: Yeah. Steve: Was it? John: Yeah it was two weeks was out on our own two weeks for back at the base for not extensive training but refreshing training refresher training. Steve: Sure now did you have some of the same soldiers with you during the whole time or or you have different ones each time? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: People did come and go but normally this the squad was made up of the same people one person might leave and another one would join but as they got a rule there you went out there with more people that you've gone on missions before with then new people and if this this assignment was strictly voluntary strictly voluntary you were brought to Washington DC and then they explained everything to and you could say yes or no and you'd be surprised how many people said yes. Steve: Really, what made you decide to do this did you feel like you had to do it did you want to do it did you feel like it was something you should do when you put on the uniform for the first time or what. John: I'm real that's a question I really don't think I could answer I have always been helpful to other people that needed help I have all been that way my entire life and I just figured boy these people really need our help right now and they know our government picked me to go do this so I went yes I have no regrets well that was crazy when I'm on these missions you you you change your personality changes you go in there as a young man you come back as a crazy person you really do. Steve: Well you've seen a lot of stuff normal people that just live regular lives don't see. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Yeah. [27:40 - 29:59] Steve: Yeah that thought will change anybody. John: Yeah I didn't I didn't come back as a drug user as an alcoholic I don't use those for excuses this post-traumatic stress syndrome I'm sorry but I just I'm old school I just don't have pity for those people I don't they’re just using that as an excuse because they saw something that that wasn't pretty okay that's war that's war and they didn't have any PTSD when we came back we weren't even welcomed with with bands you know we were booed we had bricks and bottles and stuff thrown at us. Steve: Mm-hmm well we can we can go over that a little bit later. John: Okay Steve: I want to back it up a little bit more. John: Okay. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: So you said they found out the camps there with when they were dropping bombs. John: Well when they're evacuating area when they were after they drew succeeded with their mission they were on high tailing it out of them but they had cameras going on the bottom of their planes all the time and just reconnaissance that's all and they put together these series of pictures and they determine maybe that could be a POWs camp. Steve: Now when you guys got your mission did anybody have a map at all they just just go? John: No we were all briefed back at the Army War College before going there we we knew what path we were basically gonna take what we're gonna take with us how far away it was and every time they were right there right but we do all that before we've left. Steve: Okay, so you know pretty much which way to go what direction to go in. John: Yeah we knew where the swamps the creeks the rivers the villages we do all that. Steve: So basically they just assign you to one camp to go to? John: Yes. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Okay did they sign if you know us did they assign other groups to different camps? [30:00 - 32:24] John: Yes. Steve: Okay did you ever run any other Americans that would go to that? John: No. Steve: Okay so they pretty much separate just as much as they could in different areas to go to that's very smart yeah. John: Our paths never crossed. Steve: Okay now did you any of you ever get hurt injured or anything or wounded in action going to and from any of you six that was going to these POWs? John: Yes, yeah I got shot several times. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Okay I mean do you want to saying about or don't want to say anything? John: Well I'm still here I just have a couple extra holes in my body and luckily enough nothing hit vital organs and most of the time when we came under fire we were far enough away from the from the sniper or the enemy combatant to him by the time the rounds hit us the velocity had been cut in half so just when it just went into us and buried itself in the muscle but I I got I got several holes different new holes in my body but nothing serious. Steve: Now you said the bullets were still in you right? John: I still have fragments in me. Steve: Um did you have to have surgery right away when you got to the bait like a base or just? John: You know if it wasn't life-threatening they'd put a bandaid on it and take care of it at Walter Reed Army Hospital when you got back. Steve: Okay I see and obviously it wasn't life-threatening to you. John: No. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Was any of the other six life threatening or. [32:25 - 34:10] John: Well we did lose one of our people one on one occasion and another one we had to carry out. Steve: Okay along with the POWs? John: With the PO- POWs. Steve: So that's just five of you to take them. John: Actually there were seven of us on that that when there eight of us all together depending on where we're going and where we were travel and what type of terrain we’re traversing dependent whether it was six seven or eight. Steve: It's quite a mission. John: Yeah. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: But all together do you have a rough idea first of all how many times you go in and out of these POW camps? John: I went in and out six times. Steve: Six times so then do you have I got average how many you got out altogether you think over hundred probably. John: I would say right around 100 I don't know for sure I don't remember. Steve: Yeah that's fine. John: I go to a reunion every year down in Indianapolis. But, so many of us are dying and so many of them are dying. I don't even keep track I just... I don't know plus I'm so old Alzheimer's, I think, is setting in I can't remember anything else. Steve: Well you remember pretty good now so I don't think you have Alzheimer’s. Al right well okay so you went back and forth to Vietnam about six different times? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Six different times over a period of 14 months. Steve: Okay, well. So basically you're looking at 1969 pretty much right now. [34:11 - 35:52] John: 68 and 69 yes. Steve: Okay yep and of course as a lot of people know 69 was the height of the war or 68 excuse me not 69 68 was where we had the most troops over there and we had the most casualties too and stuff like that too um when they when you guys got the POWs to the to the American bases or camps wherever you went to were they pretty much taken back to the States after they were…? John: After they were checked out medically and after they were debriefed yes they came back to the States. Steve: And then they're probably discharged from there if they wanted to or…? John: I don't know what happened to them after that. Some of them were under longer military obligation, some of may have expired or turn past their expiration date. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Sure, now we're these enlisted guys or officers that you pulled? John: They were both. Steve: Both okay. John: They were both. Most of the enlisted were ground troops most of the officers were… Steve: Pilots? John: Pilots. Steve: For the helicopter or for..? John: Both yeah we lost a hell of a lot of helicopters over there. Steve: Yeah I think I still read stories today of a lot of helicopter crews and pilots that are still unaccounted for. John: Still unaccounted for. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: So, well I'm gonna say this during this whole- John: I would love to be able to go back there and traverse some of these paths that I took just to just to help locate. [35:53 - 37:24] Steve: Sure, I want to say this throughout this whole interview here John. Thank you very much for all you've done okay that's fantastic this story even so far and we got more time to go. John: I was crazy back then I was. Steve: Well it doesn't sound like you're crazy because you got Americans back home from a war that wasn't very popular in a war that a lot of young men were killed unnecessary it really is and you know thank you very much. John: This was the first war that we were really in where politics had a major major factor not the sake of winning the war politics. Steve: We'll get into that in a little bit here too. Alright so your last time you were over there did you do anything after that over in ‘Nam? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: No. Steve: That was it? John: That was it. Last time I came back I was injured I got shot three times nothing lifethreatening but needed some- some reconstructive surgery and they took care of that at Fort Belvoir Virginia and then they released me to Fort Myer Virginia it's right across the river from Fort McNair but I was still in an infantry capacity but more of a honor guard status. Steve: Okay. So, back to Vietnam have you ever been in the cities like Hue or Saigon or any of those? John: Nope never had time. Steve: Never had time. John: Never, never around any of those cities I never had time we were dropped off there and the next day we were out on our mission and we came back and sometimes we were gone the same day. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Oh. So then basically when you by- by 69 of course we had a new president Richard Nixon course you know did you guys ever hear anything about what’s going- anything going on in the states when you're over there? [37:25 - 39:49] John: No we all we really knew was well what we knew when between the trips going back and forth we we did know that Westmoreland lost the command and Creighton Abrams took over but that was about it. Steve: How did you feel about Westmoreland being relieved of command? John: Actually he was he was commander for troops in Vietnam for four years and I think it was a mistake changing him from a long-term combat warrior to a stateside non-combat general [note: Abrams had commanded armored units in WW II]. Steve: Right, desk job in other words. Now, some Vietnam vets they they don't think too highly of him they always call them waste-more-men that's what they called him. John: No... I, I never looked at it that way I never did. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: I was just curious about okay half of them said this half of them said that but it's the same a lot of veterans I've I've talked to a high generals like World War two Vets say the same thing about their high Admirals and Generals too and the same with later later ones too like Afghanistan and Iraq and all that stuff but. John: I know he did things a little differently it was a time of war we needed things to get done people had to do it people are going to get lost. Steve: Oh one question to you don't have to answer this but I always asked Vietnam vets this did you ever have any civilian especially children come up to you that had bombs. John: No. Steve: Okay. John: No. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: I'm sure you've probably heard all kinds of stories. So but anyway thank you for answering that. That's a hard question that I asked Vietnam vets but I always ask because some will say they'll tell me a little bit others won't. John: There's a second half to that “no” though. Because when we were on a mission and we came across any friend- any friendly people non-combatants they were dead when we left. Steve: Well like I said but the stories in history books and veterans have telling me and other people you probably wouldn't have been out of there alive. [39:50 - 42:28] John: Yeah well it's true. Steve: If you would uh some soldiers never came back that that hug the children but anyway we’ll leave that alone right now thank you very much for your honesty okay all right now so you came back to the states what 70 71? John: 71. Steve: 71. Uh, you mentioned- �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: No, no. 70. Steve: 70 okay so when you came back you're headed back to DC right? John: Yes. Steve: Okay, when you came back to the states did you stop off in California or? John: No. Steve: Just straight okay. John: Straight over. Steve: Of course you probably had some stops obviously to fill up fuel and stuff. John: Two, just to fill up the bird, that was it. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Yeah, we didn't have the supersonic jets we do now we’d probably fly start for that but yeah so anyway um you mentioned earlier about how you were treated stuff being thrown at you where was this at? John: Well one of them was one of our missions coming back we did stop at Fort Lewis Washington and we were pelted with all kind of anything that could be thrown most of mostly, it was glass bottles, cans that were still full, not had been opened, rocks, stones. Steve: Were you guys in uniform was that how they could tell? John: We were still in our in our combat fatigues. Steve: Okay and they were I'm sorry they did was that at the airport or…? [42:29 - 44:07] John: This was that the Fort Lewis Washington airstrip. This was they have loaders right right near the fence so anybody that came in they were within stone's throw of the fence. Steve: So didn't the security of the base trying to stop them or…? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: They- they would go up to up up to the fence but it- they wouldn't go inside the fence they would just sit there and talk to them. Steve: Did anybody get hurt with a glass bottle or ro- rocks whatever? John: Somebody got a couple bumps on the head maybe good stitch it to but nobody really got hurt. Steve: Well basically you guys pretty much ignored as much you can. John: Oh yeah. Yeah we just turned our backs on them. Steve: Probably the best way right there. John: Luckily we didn't have rifles with live ammunition so probably would have shot them too. Steve: Well the thing about that is they don't have the real store they only go and by what they saw in the news and what they've been hearing so they're they based a prejudice against you unfortunately. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: They had a prejudice against anybody that was in any military. Steve: Yep I mean if I was old enough back then if I wore a uniform they'd probably throw rocks me even if I hadn’t been to Vietnam you know and that's I know that's a sign of the times it's gotten better but it's no it's still no excuse for this country to do that no matter who they are that's how I've always felt and I was really young during that time but. John: Look at how they- what they did during this past presidential election. Steve: Yeah, yeah that's I know what I know. John: And this was 40 years ago 45 years ago you know it's just terrible it really is I don't know where some of these people get their.. [44:08 - 46:00] Steve: Right and that for everybody to know right now for future use the past presidential election was between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump with Donald Trump of course winning and that's all we're gonna say about that that's for future use for people that listens to this interview anyway. John: Yeah I've put in my two cents on that one no I'll leave it alone. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: You’re good you’re good this is the this is the United States of American you can- my way I'm just letting people know so you know the time frames and stuff like that too but you are right people get- John: And these are educated people. Steve: I know, anyway so you come back to the states and then did you want to continue with the army or are you done with it or. John: I was going to be done with it but I had two years of college under my belt I was a half a credit down in the end of my second semester second year second semester that's why I was drafted and the army came out with this program for every year that you extend we’ll give you a year's college education so uh I took that first year I'm in Washington DC now I meant now I'm in Arlington Virginia now I’m at Fort Myer Virginia and I can go to Northern Virginia Community College or University of Maryland in College Park so I extended for a year the army gave me the time off to go to school and yet I could still carry out my army duties and I extended a second year and got my degree. Steve: And where did you go to school at? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: University of Maryland College Park campus. Steve: Okay that's basically the Terrapins right their nickname okay yeah. How was it like there? John: It was I I thought it's fine I thought was just great that was just great I was a couple years older than everybody else there but everything worked out just fine. Steve: Um what was your major what was your degree? John: I got a degree in business accounting and management the worst thing I could’ve ever done. Steve: Why's that? [46:01 - 48:19] Steve: Because in 72, 73, and 74 the the personal computer came about and they didn't need a a degreed accountant anymore they just needed a computer operator with bookkeeping experience because a computer would categorize and keep all the records I got out and I did work for Sheraton Corporation as a hotel Auditor I would travel around and audit franchise hotels but that lasted a year then they didn't meet me anymore well now they're all the hotels �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock are setting up satellite dishes and like I said bookkeepers could take care of everything they didn't need an accountant. Steve: So let's let's back up just a little bit before the war before you went and drafted were you going to Maryland then or was it- John: No no I was going to college in uh Illinois. Steve: Okay. What was the name of the college? John: Prairie State College. Steve: Okay, Prairie State. and you were half a credit shy of two years if you had the extra half a credit- John: I wouldn’t have been drafted. Steve: So you know the terms of stay in school, it's just a joke. John: Yes I know yeah. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: So then when you get out when you were still in the military when you went to University of Maryland? John: Yes. Steve: Okay now of course we've heard all the college protests and stuff were they still protesting against the war when you were there? John: Not there anyway not there there were they were protesting a lot of other places but I didn't see any of it at university University of Maryland. Steve: Um did they treat you any different because you were a veteran the professors or the students. John: No no not really I was considered the old person in the class but no not really nobody yeah. [48:20 - 50:24] �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Nobody called you any names or anything that's good you know I've really impressed with I'll be a Terrapin fan for a little bit for that one yeah even though I'm a big Michigan State fan. John: oh no I wasn't treated any any differently. Steve: Well that's that's that's good to hear I'm I'm really glad to hear. John: There is so much military all around Washington DC all five services have major installations just around Washington and so much of their support live just around Washington nobody's gonna bad-mouth any any military around Washington. Steve: So obviously they had an effect of where it was at. John: Oh yes. Steve: Pretty much not like some places like California or even where the unfortunates that happen with the National Guard at Kent State they're in Ohio and they even had some here Michigan at MSU and U of M and even up at Ferris State where my brother went to school at the ROTC buildings and stuff like that but um anyway that's that's fantastic I'm glad to hear that �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock I'm sure a lot of people are glad to hear that too um no as far as Maryland goes by the way where's University of Maryland at? John: College Park. Steve: And where's that at? John: North east, northeast Washington DC. Steve: Okay I've been to Merrill many times but I've never been by the area for some reason John: North-East quadrant. Steve: Okay been to D.C many times too but I've never to[50:25 - 52:03] John: DC's set out or set up like Grand Rapids Northeast Northwest same thing. Steve: Alright, as far as of course a metal in service award you want to you you said you earned a Silver Star. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Yeah. Steve: Tell me how you earn that or can't you say? John: We can’t. Steve: That's fine. John: We can't discuss that. Steve: Same with the Bronze Stars right earned three Bronze Stars same thing okay. John: Actually all my works don't say what I did where I did it at it's just work services rendered in Southeast Asia. Steve: Understandable, congratulations thank you for them too they’re well deserved. John: Thank you. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: And course four purple hearts. You've mentioned a couple of them it's up to you if you want to talk about that. John: Got shot in my mouth, got shot in my ankle, got shot in my knee took one in the calf two in the back one hit my spinal cord one in the shoulder one here and one in my chest over here. Steve: The, the one that hit you in your mouth that's not life-threatening? John: No, it didn't enter anything except my mouth cavity but it did break off all my teeth at one time so yeah. Steve: Did you have the bullet in your mouth was it or…? John: No it wedged itself between two teeth and there was no place for the teeth to go so they just went sideways and broke them all off the gum level the the bullet wreckage ricochet ricocheted up and hit my jaw right here and same thing went between two teeth no place to go broke all the teeth off but one and stopped its forward momentum at that point. [52:04 - 54:01] Steve: Now, did you have to have reconstructive surgery on your mouth or just… �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Nothing reconstruct nothing reconstruct and just have to pull out all the roots and give me a false teeth but they took care of all that and they still take care of all of it. Steve: Oh really? That's good yeah. You mentioned your spinal cord. John: That one I had big problems with. It took many many years to catch up with me but I mean every problems with that now. Steve: Okay doesn't seem like you do because you you work pretty good and stuff but. John: As long as I stay active it's okay but as soon as I stop- Steve: You feel it. John: I feel it yes. Steve: And then your shoulders you said too, and then your ankle you still feel them too? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: I feel the one in my knee but the rest of them don't bother me at all the spinal cord one does the one in my right knee that there again 40 years later it's starting to I had an injury that wasn't really taken care of good 45 years ago. Steve: I've heard that a lot even World War two and Korean vets say the same thing that their injuries catch up to him 40 sometimes 50 years later you know Wow of course technology now is obviously much different. John: Yeah the back one is starting to bother me. Steve: Okay yeah you want us to stop for a minute or you're good? John: No I’m fine just got to reposition myself a little. Steve: Okay Alright um obviously Good Conduct Medal well deserved your special duties were assistant army aviator Pathfinder. John: Uh that's what the award is I was an aviation crew member. I was part of a helicopter crew. [54:02 - 55:56] �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Okay and you earned your combat infantry badge. John: Yes. Steve: Congratulations that's a very hard badge to earn. John: Yes they come in combat. Steve: They don't just hand those things out. John: They don’t even hand them out anymore. Steve: No I know, that's too bad I have some friends of mine that are Vietnam vets that I served in the National Guard that had that too and I was very proud to stand next to them and dress greens or dress blues in the air air army or Air Guard stuff like that too and believe it or not when we have an inspection by a lieutenant colonel or full-bird colonel they look at their medals say they say thank you very much for what you did in Vietnam that's very good some of them officers like that didn't even go over to Vietnam or got in after Vietnam so… John: I have a very good friend that retired as a full-bird colonel and I still address him as sir. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Alright obviously you earned your National Defense medal you're in the 82nd airborne okay how's that does that make you feel proud or does it do anything for you that you were in the 82nd second airborne? John: Well most Rangers are go through 82nd airborne hundred first most Rangers are eighty second it was just another duty station do the assignment that's how I got my airborne nothing to brag about but nothing to be ashamed about it's just a stepping stone in my ladder it's all it was. Steve: Hmm my medals are those are units that not the average service member belong to. John: They have to be airborne well I look more than orange Ranger tab bit more more important to me than the 82nd airborne. Steve: And why is that? John: There aren't that many Rangers. Steve: Okay well there's a lot of airborne, �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: There's a lot of airborne but they didn't go Ranger. [55:57 - 57:58] Steve: Of course you earned your Southeast Asia campaign medal and your public of Vietnam medal and then you showed me a patch earlier of the Washington Monument with a sword by it. John: Military District of Washington. Steve: Could you tell us about that a little bit? John: Well when I came back I was assigned to Fort Myer Virginia that's part of the Military District of Washington all army that's that's in the military around the Washington area wear that patch as their home patch. Steve: And you told me that you're very proud of that why? John: I was in a unit that very very few people have ever been- been in I don't know if you know this but like I said I walked the tomb of the unknown soldier number three months and I have a patch I have a badge that's a tomb guard patch it's made of sterling silver and you know that less tomb guard patches have been handed out than patches that have given to the astronauts that have gone up in space. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Actually be honest with me that doesn't surprise me but the people who would be viewing this interview it would. John: There have been less tomb guard patches or medals awarded than patches for going into outer space. Steve: Well I know it's quite a not just an honor but a quite a lot of restrictions you have to follow well for that because for obvious reasons because it's very sacred. John: When I did it it wasn't as sacred or it was sacred but not as many restrictions but ever since they identified the remains of the Vietnam unknown I don't know I just look at that whole system a little bit different now. Steve: Sure so you are you saying that you didn't want them to identify? John: I didn't want them to open up that tomb and do a DNA I didn't want I was against that. Steve: Why is that? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: He- he was part of he was the selected Vietnam unknown and they should’ve left left it that way technology caught up with the times the times didn't catch up with the technology and I just don't think… [57:59 - 60:40] Steve: They shouldn’t have done that? John: I don't think they should have done it because now we don't have a Vietnam unknown but we have unknown from all the other wars it will probably never have another unknown. Steve: See I thought they had another unknown in there but he was the only one? John: Oh they had unknowns from World War one, Korea. Steve: Yeah I knew that. John: They have a couple different grave sites it's not all one tomb okay. Steve: But see I thought there was another Vietnam unknown at the tomb. John: I don't think so I don't know. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Okay sure yeah I don't I don't know myself be honest with ya I'd have to look that up sure I've been to the tomb many times to stop there so you were the sentinel at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier the assistant commander for the second relief just go ahead and tell me about that. John: Well I was I was hand picked for that position also go through an extensive training period before they even put you out on the mat, and most honorable you're guarding the most honorable sacred thing that are all the military all the mili- military forces look as sacred that is sacred that's just how I looked at it. Steve: I mean it's that's good I mean a lot of people look at it that way and you were also a member of the army drill team for three months? John: Yes. Steve: What's that about? John: It's just a lot of performance gun rifles showmanship the guns around flipping them unison everybody doing thing in perfect unison or the ripple effect today. But that was fun we traveled a �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock lot with that they did a lot of presentations different places football games basketball games yeah. [60:41 - 62:49] Steve: Well that's still quite an honor to do that really and you were the honor guard at Fort Myer too right. Okay, what's that about? John: Everything that I just described the tomb the drill team that's all part of the honor guard company. Steve: Does it? Okay, same thing yeah okay alright. John: I was one of the few infantry personnel that still rode a horse almost in the caisson platoon for three months. Steve: Okay and what's that all about? John: They're they're the white horse squad or the black horse squad that carried that pulls the caisson with the casket in the flag on the flag draped casket for burials in Arlington National Cemetery I rode one of those horses so I was part of the cavalry. I had a very very very nice military career. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: You sure did, and I want to thank you for it again very much. John: They really didn't want me to get out but I had to go. Steve: Did yah? what it- was one of those things were it's time to go. John: Yes yeah it was time for me to go. Steve: Yeah yeah um okay well back up later and a few things but right now I want to bring up to the present time so when you got all the military what did you do? John: Well I went to work for Sheridan Corporation because I had that degree in accounting that lasted a year and Sheridan told me months in advance look we're gonna lay you off because we don't need this position anymore you've been been been replaced by electronics and back then a computer needed the whole room with air-conditioned floors [Unintelligible] operators but it was the start it was the start so I I went to operating engineer school became became a crane operator and did that for 40 years. Steve: What did you do as a crane operator was a part of construction? �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: Construction. I would hang steel lift concrete. [62:50 - 65:13] Steve: One of those big tall things that you see? John: Well that was the second 20. The first 20 years was in a big hydro crane they're portable and you can set them up in at any job- jobsite set them up on a daily basis second 20 I went tower crane those are the big ones that goes straight up and I did that for the second twenty more money the higher up you got you got more money for every five floors you went up. Steve: it's almost like more combat pay almost. John: Yeah I like to working for a hundred dollars an hour. Steve: Yeah I don't blame you. John: It’is nice it's not like very comfortable for me. Steve: So obviously you didn't have no fear Heights. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock John: No, well I jumped out of airplanes perfectly good airplane afraid of a crane that's a three four hundred feet tall. Steve: So fit right in. Now did you ever get married? John: Yes. Steve: Okay you have any children? John: Yes I have three girls. Steve: Okay tell me about them? John: Uh they're scattered all over the country right now yeah I think I have on in New York one in Florida one in LA. Steve: You certainly do yeah. John: They they're all professionals and they're all doing well and I talk to them see them all time. my wife passed back in 1990. �Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: John Chenard Interviewed by Steve Hammond Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock Steve: Sorry to hear that. John: I had[65:14 - End] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ChenardJ2115V1 Title A name given to the resource Chenard, John (1 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-26 Description An account of the resource John Chenard was born in Chicago Heights Illinois in 1948. He grew up with a barber father, and a stay at home mother, he also had a brother and a sister. He went to Creek Moni High School. He was drafted through the draft lottery in 1967. He was shipped off to Fort Polk, Louisiana. He did 8 weeks of basic infantry training, and then is advanced training there as well. After Basic and Advanced, he went to Fort Benning Georgia for Airborne training. After that, he signed up to be a Ranger, that training consisting of 12 weeks, which was near the Panama Canal. After that, he was hand picked for a small operation, search-and-rescue. He was based in Washington D.C, but would fly into Vietnam and rescue POWs. In 1970, he finished that tour in Vietnam, received surgery for bullet wounds he had acquired throughout his time in Vietnam, and was given an "Infantry/ Honor Guard" status. His return to the states was rocky, a crowd of being throwing things at him and yelling at him. He went to University of Maryland College Park campus for 2 years while extending his military contract for two years as well. For his service as well, he earned a variety of metals, including 4 Purple Hearts. He became a soldier at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, Also, he was apart of the Army Drill Team, and would go around to public outings and do shows of gun maneuvers. After that, he retired from the military and did accounting for a year. He was let go from that job, and was a crane operator for 40 years before he retired. He had a wife, who has since passed away, and has three daughters. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chenard, John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hammond, Steve (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e53029dc805d4c09dc8fc87e5266490.mp4 2c7f1af74de5157a54378b42b085914e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7757fe3356b7bb3b2de3b9164399ab41.pdf 20ffe83a9141e920a8fb7df8b9fbcf9e PDF Text Text Buckingham, Buck Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee’s Name: Richard “Buck” Buckingham Length of Interview: (55:07) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay. Start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born?” Detroit, Michigan. August 1st, 1929. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you grow up in Detroit, or did you move around?” Mostly Detroit. I lived outside of Detroit—in Lansing—for a year, and the rest of the time was in Detroit. Northwest Detroit. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were growing up?” Well, I had two younger brothers. My dad was a—He was a metallurgical engineer, and he sold dye blocks for drop forgings. (1:03) And so that’s why we moved from Detroit to Lansing and then back to Detroit. Same company, bigger job. Interviewer: “Okay, so did he have steady work during the 30s, or was it on and off?” No, he had steady work because he was a chemical engineer, and I guess they were in demand. But you could—It didn’t dawn on me what the economy was because everything was fine. But he worked all the time. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now you were still a kid when Pearl Harbor happened, but do you remember hearing about that?” Oh, yes. I spent the day glued to the big, old Bausch & Lomb radio, which was a monster thing, and you sit right next to it to get it all. (2:04) And that’s the way I recall it. Interviewer: “Okay, and did the war—I mean, did that change things in your community or at your school or anything?” Oh, just that things got tighter right away. Things were tight anyways because it was in—The Depression wasn’t gone yet, and like I said, my dad was gone all the time, it seemed like. �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “Well, did you get involved in any kind of wartime activities when there were—Some communities had things like paper drives and metal drives or things like that.” Oh, that was right away because I remember my brothers—I had two younger brothers, and we had one wagon that my dad had built. And we used to go out, I imagine, two or three times a week—maybe Thursday, a Friday, and a Saturday—and come back with a load of paper. And we would get them in twenty-five pound packages so that they could be handled, and that was the paper drive. Then, well, whenever the garage got filled up? Why, we started over again, so all the time we did that. Interviewer: “All right. Now when you filled up the garage, then did someone come and take it away, or what happened?” Yeah, it kind of was, I assume, a central pickup point. Big, old truck would back up. And it was a one car garage, and the car sat outside. But we thought we were doing our part. Interviewer: “Sure. Now did they ever have air raid drills or blackouts or anything like that?” (4:02) The first blackout I can remember was—We didn’t have too many of them. A lot of them were— The first one was really confusing because in the meantime we had moved out to a nicer home on West Outer Drive in Detroit, and it was really strange to see all the lights and—Outer Drive was a nice—It used to be a great boulevard that went all the way around the city out into Dearborn, and, boy, it was dark. There was—You couldn’t have a light. It was nothing. And they had the wardens touring on foot, walking all over to see—“Hey. What’s that light in that garage going for?” Or, “It’s blackout!” And we had, I’d say, probably—I want to say one a month, but that would have been twelve for a whole year, and that would be very much. At first, I imagine we had—I’m just guessing now—probably the first month and the second and third month. Then I think we got it down to where we could survive on—Because, you know, energy—It took all my memory. Interviewer: “Well, they may have figured out after a while the Germans probably weren’t coming after all.” Well, they probably couldn’t get through. Interviewer: “Yeah, little far to get to Detroit.” But Detroit would have been a prime target because it—Where all the automobile factories were and the heavy industry was, so there was a lot of concentration there. (6:14) So I didn’t experience anytime in the early war of rural because later on when I became twelve years old, I worked on a farm in Canada every summer for three summers. My brothers worked as I graduated. They filled in there. Interviewer: “Okay, so how did you wind up working on a farm in Canada?” �Buckingham, Buck Because my dad had worked as a—In a farm in southern Michigan when he was growing up, and he thought everybody should do that. And then it—And I guess I wasn’t a—Wasn’t in the Boy Scouts yet because I wasn’t twelve, so I was in the Cub Scouts. I guess I just wanted to do what I wanted to do. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now—And then in Canada—When you were over in Canada, did you just live there for several months and work out there, or…?” Usually from about the Fourth of July—About a week before that to a week before Labor Day. And I’d never been away from home before, so that was a big experience. But I—They needed people working on farms, and by that time I was a full-grown twelve-year-old. Interviewer: “Okay. Now was this a—Something that your family just arranged privately, or was there some—” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so then it’s not an organized system or anything like that?” (8:01) No. Interviewer: “So did you stay with a farm family then in their home?” Yeah, and I put in more than forty hours a week. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so now did you finish high school?” Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate from high school?” 1947. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and now at this point did you have career plans, or did you want to go to school, or…?” Oh, I wanted to go to college and ended up going to Hillsdale College for two years. Because I was a kid, I was—I got by. I didn’t realize the importance of really recording the good parts. So I went to Redford High School for four years, graduated in—You already asked me that. But then I went to Hillsdale, which was a two-year school—I had to get my efforts in the right order—and transferred to Michigan State for my junior year. Ran out of money because in the meantime my dad died in an automobile accident. A guy ran a stop sign. And we ran out of money, so… Interviewer: “Did you find a job then, or…?” �Buckingham, Buck Yeah, it was—I was working—I worked for Ford Motor Company in the Pressed Steel Building as a—I had to supply the steel. (10:23) It was—And I didn’t have to buy it. No. I was only a twenty-year-old kid. But I had to make sure the drop forge guys had enough stock. They’d hammer it out, so I was just supplying. And I worked there two summers. They needed people in the summertime, and where else could a guy make—I think I made $1.03 an hour. Big deal. Yeah, starting wage then was somewhere around ninety cents in the Ford Motor Company, so I was way ahead of the game. Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you doing that when the Korean War started?” No. Korean War was—It started in June of ‘50. I was in college. I was working wherever I could make some money because I wasn’t a veteran yet, and therefore I was trying to supply some money for tuition. When I was in college—After I went to Michigan State—See, I spent one year and ran out of money, and then I tried to find a job. (12:10) This would have been in ‘51 now. And they didn’t want somebody just for five or six weeks. They wanted somebody permanently, so—I wish I had a chance to write this down before. Then I wouldn’t be so confused. But… Interviewer: “Now did you have—And now with the war going on there was a draft going on at that time. Now were you thinking about enlisting in the military?” Yeah, I’d—I wanted to enlist in the Air Force, and—Because I wanted to fly, and I’d gone to a couple summer camps. But then there came a point where I had to find a full-time job or wherever they would put me, and so I did part-time jobs. Mowed lawns. Stuff like that. My grades weren’t very good. I had time to grow up yet. I’m glad that was available. Then I—And I tried to enlist in the Air Force to take a—Because I wanted to fly. And that was not successful because their program was cut off. This was towards the end of the war, and so they didn’t have this program anymore. So… (14:04) Interviewer: “So it was kind of a cadet program or something?” It was a—It was going to be an enlistment program, but that was discontinued. Then I had to register for the draft, which I did, and I went in on December 4th, 1951. Something like that. Interviewer: “All right, and then which branch of the service did you go in?” Well, in the draft you went where they told you, and when they told a group of us—“All right, you guys, step over here and line up. Well, raise your hand.” And I was in the Marine Corps, and it was the—I think they had just started drafting in the Marine Corps, and so we were the—I was in the first honor platoon of nothing but draftees, and this designation as an honor platoon didn’t come out until we’d been in boot camp for five or six weeks. And from then on the pressure was on us. We recognized the fact that every one of us there—I think there was sixty-five guys then. We started with about, I want to say, between seventy and seventy-five, and they’d physically went out or mentally couldn’t handle it or weren’t qualified for some reason or another. So now—I forgot your question. (16:04) �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “Well, we were—Basically, we had kind of—We’re getting you into the war now. So you get your draft notice, and then—And you wind up being put into the Marine Corps. Now when you first got that draft notice, where did you report to first? Did you go to Detroit or Fort Custer or…?” Detroit. Had to be there in the wee hours of the morning. My next younger brother dropped me off, and I called my mom about 10:30, eleven in the morning. “Mom, I’m in the Marine Corps .” “Where are you going?” “I’ll let you know.” I knew I was going to South Carolina. Interviewer: “Right, so Parris Island?” Parris Island. And she says, “Where’s that?” “Well, look at a map.” Interviewer: “Okay. Now how did they get you down there?” Train. And couple of drill instructors—One was a sergeant. Just got back from Korea. And the other one was a staff sergeant—one above—and he’d been in the islands in World War II. And everything you read about drill instructors was true. And I’d read a Life magazine article in September, and it was a pictorial presentation. And it was—I always wanted to get a copy, but I never could. But—Of this guy’s boot camp. I said, “Oh my god.” (18:01) But—So I knew from that what to expect because I had enough friends that had—Were in the Army. And theirs wasn’t that bad. Interviewer: “Right. Okay. Now while you were in transit—while you were on the train— were these sergeants fairly well-behaved, or were they already shouting at you?” Oh, no, they were pretty gentle. They were—Instead of, “Get your butt over here,” it was, “Get over here.” And I think there was enough of us in that first group that knew what to expect. Just do as you’re told, and do it to the best of your ability. Interviewer: “Now were you older than most of the other guys?” Yeah. Yeah, I was. I think I was twenty-two. That’d be about right, and—But twenty-two was pretty old. Interviewer: “All right. Now what happens once you arrive at Parris Island? When you first pull up there, what do they do?” “Would you line up over here?” “All right.” And I could—I was in the front rank, and—Just because I was—My last name began with a B, and also I was tall. Well, not like some of the other guys, but we had some shorties that—They didn’t meet the height, and they were gone. But I think I was—I think I shrunk an inch or something. I used to be 6’2”. I went down to 6’1”. (20:00) �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “All right, but when you got there, I mean, did they act—Did—Were they— When they were telling you to go line up, were they shouting at you, or was it still just regular—” No, no. No shouting. They were good drill instructors. They knew how to get the most, and later on there was a lot of voice raising. Swearing? No. In other words, different than, “Get your butt over here.” Little bit louder because when they spoke, you better do it otherwise you were in trouble. And there was no way to get thinking done, you know? So I have no trouble with it. And we lost some guys that couldn’t stand it. I remember one guy. We were in these pyramid tents. Would hold either four or five. Maybe squeeze six guys in there, but I think we had five. And there’s a potbellied stove in the middle, and it was click on. It was fueled by kerosene. Because it was the first week of December in South Carolina, and it is not balmy down there at that time. So it was cold. And the demeanor of the drill instructors was just fine until we got to where we were going. To the—Where the tents were. And I decided I’m going to do as I’m told and do my best. That was the way to do it. Interviewer: “Now were there some guys who tried to push back, or…?” (22:01) Yeah, there—“So what?” “Oh, yeah?” Well, they weren’t there because they—It’s a first step of not being able to be counted on in the Marine Corps. So I was glad I went in the Marines. Interviewer: “All right. Now what kind of training do you get at Parris Island? What are they making you do?” Discipline. Follow orders. Follow orders and excel at those because those drill instructors— That’s how their—That’s their report card. If they produce a bunch of bums that can’t understand or don’t have anything—No drive to get it done. Couldn’t hit a target with a broom. They don’t want those. I wouldn’t want to go into combat with one of those people, so… Interviewer: “All right. Now when people did mess up, what kind of punishment do they get, or how did that work?” Depended on how they messed up. If we just—“Your other left foot, stupid,” or something like that. They would work with that person, but they’d also work harder and get that person who was causing the problem squared away quick because, again, if you were—Had him on your right or left landing on a beach or whatever, you better be able to count on him because he’s counting on you, so… Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you do a lot of physical training?” Well, it was calisthenics right after when they told you to get out of your sack. (24:07) I think it was 5:30 in the morning or five or whatever it was. It was when I was sleeping. But just following orders and understanding what you were in now. These guys were professionals. They had to be. �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “Right. Now as far as you knew you were the first training platoon that was all draftees?” As far as I know. Interviewer: “At least for the Korean War you’re at Parris Island. Yeah.” Oh, we would have been the—We were not the first training platoon, but we were the first one hundred percent at the end of the—You know, at the graduation party. The first honor platoon. Interviewer: “And that meant you had the best record of the other platoons?” Yeah, or—I don’t know about the other platoons, but the—We had reached this level, and a bunch of draftees that, you know, weren’t worth a damn before? Now they were pretty important. Interviewer: “Okay, so at that point now how long did the boot camp last?” I think it was twelve weeks then, but I’m not sure. It’s moved. It’s been moved up and down over the years. Interviewer: “Yeah. Yes, it has, but that’s probably about right for that period. Okay. Now after you complete boot camp, now what do you do?” Okay, so we were given a ten-day leave. And so I took the leave, of course, because I couldn’t wait to get home. And I came back, and I went to Camp Lejeune area. (26:04) And one small area was Camp Geiger, and there was other—Amphibious place exist. This was in South Carolina. Interviewer: “Was it South Carolina or North Carolina now? Because Lejeune is North Carolina.” North Carolina. Okay. Parris Island was in South, and… Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re at Camp Geiger, and…?” I was at an engineering headquarters and service company, which was personnel. I could type. I had three years of college. I was later—Tried to—Been encouraged by some of the officers in the upper echelon NCOs to apply for OCS, which would have been—But I didn’t want to because I said—I was in there for two years. Korean War was starting to bend down, and I couldn’t see being gone for three—I was already older than most of them, so I figured I’d be an old man by the time I got out of there. Interviewer: “All right. Now let’s see. This is the 8th Engineer Battalion that you’re with at that point?” �Buckingham, Buck Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “All right, so now what was the battalion doing there? What kinds of stuff did the companies do?” Well, we had—The companies were A Company, B Company, and then there was a bridge— floating bridge—company. (28:08) And that was in this battalion. And so one of them was a service company, the other was administration, and the other was in the boondocks building bridges. And they were shlocking through there. So I handled mainly record books. We called them service record books. And you would enter it from a daily—I was a typist. So I was in a group of guys, and then we had one sergeant that was in charge of us. And there was two tech sergeants and a master sergeant. So big company has to move all the equipment in an engineer outfit. You’ve got to order the stuff. Well, I was taking care of personnel, and that’s pretty much what I was trained. Interviewer: “All right, so basically do you have what amounts to an office job?” Yeah, but I still went to the field, and I never was in combat. I think most of us wanted to go, but really I’m just as happy I didn’t when I got out. Yeah, Marines is a good place to be because at least they trained you for something. Interviewer: “Sure. Okay. Now let’s talk a little bit about what life is like for you while you were there in that job. What was your daily routine like?” (30:04) Well, we lived in Quonset huts, which were colder than the dickens in the wintertime and sweltering in the summertime because there was no insulation. It’s just a metal—In the old Quonsets. And Camp Geiger was at a small camp next to the big camp. And let’s see… Interviewer: “All right, so you live in Quonset huts, and then you—When does your day start?” Your day started, I think—Meaning roughly, or…? Interviewer: “Yeah, well, when do you get up?” Usually it was around a little after six, and you had to go to—Get some chow. You could straggle if you wanted to, but you’ve got to within a certain—Well, if it’s one going to this building and one go to that building, they’d form up kind of loosely, and then when everybody was there, when the time came where there was a corporal or a sergeant—Marched you over. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re still moving around as organized groups even if you’re just heading to chow or something else like that?” Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “Okay, and then when do you start work?” �Buckingham, Buck By eight o’clock. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then do they give you an eight-hour day or a ten-hour day or a four-hour day?” Well, you get four-hour days where—I can’t remember why. (32:00) Most of them were—Well, even on a Sunday, you’d have to be there until one or two o’clock. Something like that. But there was very few guys. Maybe one NCO and then two privates or PFCs, which I was one, and… Interviewer: “But there’s still people coming and going on and off the base even on a Sunday, and somebody has to keep—” Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and being in personnel, you always had somebody reporting in, and you’d have to report until whatever time was on his orders. But they were either twelve o’clock or by six o’clock in the evening, and that varied. So you had to have someone there. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now this is—You’re in the Marine Corps in a period where the military is starting to desegregate. Did you have any black Marines on the base, or was everybody white?” Yeah. Yeah, in fact, the one NCO was a staff sergeant. He was black. And I’m trying to think of his name. A French name. Chapeau. Something like that. And he was a good guy. He spoke English. There was no difficulty understanding what he meant. You followed his orders. You know, if you do what you’re told, there’s no problem, but if you think you’re better, forget it. (34:04) Interviewer: “Okay. Now you’re—Would you get to go off base much at all, or did you just stay in the camp the whole time?” Well, I had a car, and I had driven all the way down from Detroit to Camp Geiger. Camp Lejeune. So I was popular. But I didn’t loan it. Not even to the good friends that I developed because I learned a long time ago. Interviewer: “Okay, but you would sometimes—You would—But you would go off the base and travel around a little bit? Yeah, yeah, used to go over to the Atlantic Ocean and swim. Liberty town was Jacksonville. Then there was a bigger town, but that was into South Carolina. You know, a PFC didn’t have much money, and I can’t remember what the gas prices were even on the base. But when I had to fill that 1950 Ford with gasoline—That? I know… Interviewer: “That would be kind of limiting.” Yeah. �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “All right. Now you were in the segregated South. I mean, did you really notice that at all? You’d come from Detroit, and you would have seen all sorts of people up there.” Yeah, a little bit. More black people—Negroes—were around, and—But some of them had super jobs, some of them were great Marines, and there was no conflict that I can ever recall until later on in my short career in the Marine Corps. (36:19) Interviewer: “So what developed then later on?” Well, at that time I was in Headquarters Marine Corps. Went in as a corporeal and things were freer because I was living in—Just outside of D.C. In fact, I was living in Virginia. Interviewer: “So did you move up to Quantico then? Is that where the—” No, I never did go to Quantico. I went to—Headquarters Marine Corps was by the Navy Annex, and… Interviewer: “Is that Alexandria, Virginia or somewhere around there?” Arlington. In fact, the barracks I was in jutted out into Arlington Cemetery, so every once in a while you’d be awakened by a military funeral. Barrage of artillery or rifle fire. Interviewer: “Okay, so how long did you stay at Camp Geiger, do you think?” I was there until—I reported into Arlington—Headquarters Marine Corps—in November. I was there about a year. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, so November ‘52 looks like when you go up there.” Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “All right. At least that’s so—Or at least that’s when you go to Washington. So your last year. So you have about eight, nine months or whatever at Camp Geiger and then switch.” Yeah. Interviewer: “How did you wind up making that switch? Did the Marines just tell you one day you’re going somewhere else, or did you apply for a program, or…?” (38:05) Well, they were looking for particular people, and I fit whatever they wanted because I had three years of college, and I was big enough to defend myself and let them know what I thought. I had performed okay. I didn’t apply for it. They said—The officers came to me and said, “What do you think? You want to go?” And I said, “I don’t know. Let me think about it.” He said, “Well, �Buckingham, Buck I’ll give you about twenty minutes.” And I decided, “Okay.” So I was given—I didn’t take a leave because I’d used pretty much my first year’s allotted time up. And so I just drove up there. Interviewer: “All right. Now how was the job in Washington different, or at the headquarters how was that different from Camp Geiger?” Well, you had to go from wearing dungarees to wearing at least Marine green or khakis in the summer. I only wore dress blues, which I had to borrow, when I drove the Michigan Jeep for Eisenhower’s first inaugural parade. So I guess Republican Party had said that—“We’ll supply white Willys-Overland Jeeps provided Marines in dress blues will drive.” (40:07) And how I got in that? I don’t know. I don’t—I know I didn’t raise my hand. But they came pretty much from posts around the D.C. area. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, so how did they manage—And what do you remember about the inaugural and how all that stuff worked? What were you—What did you do that day, or what did you see?” Well, I remember it was colder than a billy goat and had to be—We were up at 4:30 or something like that. We had, I remember, breakfast at five, and then we had to be ready to go into D.C. from Arlington. And it was about 6:30 or seven, so it was a slow day because parade didn’t start until middle of the afternoon. And so here we are standing around in dress blues and making sure that nobody comes and messes up our white Jeep, and we were dragging a Michigan float. Each one of these Jeeps was—Had a float. And so it was pretty much protect the inventory. But we had coffee. They had coffee rounds. They’d come around. Feed you coffee. Then you had to find a head somewhere because this was just out in the street, you know. Weren’t any trees. (42:00) Interviewer: “Something—The planners hadn’t thought about that.” Yeah, but it was interesting because we had meals brought out to us. Then when we finally got in the parade where everything was well-organized, I was driving the Jeep, and I had a tech sergeant as my leader. And he was sitting to me, and it’s the first one he’d been in. But he had ribbons from here all the way up to here. He’d been all over during World War II. I hadn’t been anywhere yet. I felt like a chicken running across a farm. But it was really interesting. It really was interesting. And it was a long day, and my wife-to-be—I had met her on New Year’s Eve. She was in the Air Force. That’s her picture up there. And so she made sure that I got some rest, and we weren’t even married yet. And slept in the backseat of my car to get some shut-eye because I’d been up forever, it seemed like. Got back to the base about midnight that night. That was a long day. Well, I’ll never forget it. Interviewer: “All right. Now how did you meet your wife? You said you had on New Year’s. Did you just go to a party in there, or…?” Well, around the D.C. area there’s a lot of military bases, and she was in communications. Worked out of the Pentagon, and she’d been in about three or four months less than I had been in. (44:08) And it was a bar. New Year’s Eve of 1951? �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “Or ‘52 probably.” ‘52. So I was glad to hit the sack that night. I was pretty tired. Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you think—Again, so what was your actual job then when you’re at the Marine headquarters now? Was it still just personnel, or was it more complicated?” Personnel pretty much. Dealing with some people that had problems, you know, with combatrelated stuff and following through. And eventually I was in charge. I was a corporeal then. Not too long after that, I got a sergeant stripe, so—And I had only been in a year and a half. And I had offers, but I wanted to get back to civilian life. Interviewer: “All right, and then what kinds of—Who were you dealing with or working with? Did you have—Was it mostly just non-coms, or did you have a lot more officers hanging around, or…?” We had officers hanging around because each one of them were in—Really in charge of a company. And the enlisted NCOs—They probably knew more than a little bunch of officers put together because those guys were—The officers were college graduates—recent—where these other guys were six stripe master sergeants, and they didn’t have the next rank, which is—Which would get created after I got out. (46:22) But that was good, and they’re a good bunch. And there was a bad egg every once in a while, but you either skirted away from them, did what they wanted—Because the stripes mean an awful lot. Interviewer: “Okay, so that boot camp training—Just do what they want you to do. That still applies here?” Oh, yeah. It has got to be. No question. Interviewer: “All right. Now if you think to the time that you spent there working in Washington, are there particular things that happened that stand out in your memory or particular impressions of that job that stand out for you?” Well, probably it was some of the guys’ record books that I had to review and make sure everything was there. And I had to read every page, and there were citations in there. I said, “Oh my god.” And one guy was awarded—that I saw his record book—Navy Cross twice. And so the job meant a little bit more. Interviewer: “Now were you involved in processing recommendations for awards, or were you just—Was working through—” No, no. No, I had what they earned and just making sure that they were paid right. (48:07) Made—Kept track of their leave time. It was a personnel job, which helped me later on. And I �Buckingham, Buck had a couple chances to make bucks on the outside if I do this, and I’d say, “No.” Because someone’s always looking for a deal. I don’t care what they have on their arm or collar or what. Interviewer: “All right. Well, what did they think you could do for them? Just make something go away from their record, or…?” No. Well, I had—I recall—vaguely because I don’t want to remember things like that—where they change his leave time from time remaining to a more—And I didn’t know anything like that went on until I started checking with my other cohorts who were in the personnel, and—“Oh, yeah. Tell them no.” So we—It got around, and nobody ever asked me again. So I don’t know. It must have gotten that taken care of. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Anything else that you want to put on the record here about this service time?” Met my wife. Interviewer: “Yeah, you did tell me that. Okay. Now did you get married after you got out of the service, or…?” No, we—She was in the Air Force, and we—Not a military record or a wedding because at that time I didn’t own a pair of dress blues, and that was around 150 bucks. (50:19) You’d wear them once, and that doesn’t make sense to me. And so just do what you’re told, and if you’re [blown?] out by your parents right, you’ve got no problem. Interviewer: “Okay. Now so—But you got married while you were still in the service?” Mm-hmm. Interviewer: “Okay, and then—Now were there any rules about—particularly for the women—I mean, did your wife have to leave the service when she got married, or she was able to stay around?” No, no. At one time, I guess, way back when. No, she could’ve—She loved her job because— She retired because she was pregnant. And she and I made about the same amount of money. You know, big deal. I forget what it was. I’d be ashamed to tell you. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you get—Did you live off base then at that point, or…?” Yeah, we lived in an apartment in Arlington, and it was $90 a month. And we had to scratch to get that in. And we had commuted rations; we used to call them COMRATS. And we were paid to eat off the base, and I would—I can’t remember whether I had to pay for my lunch—I know I paid for it, but do—Whether I gave them cash or whether I wrote a check. (52:03) But I know it was done properly because someone is in charge of that, so—And same with her. She was working in the Pentagon. �Buckingham, Buck Interviewer: “All right, and now you basically finish up two years after you started, so early December ‘53 your enlistment is up. What do you do then after you get out?” I’d already applied to return to Michigan State, and we lived in—Let’s see. Married housing. Yeah, you had to, you know, get on a list. Interviewer: “Okay, so they had some married student housing but not enough for you to get into right away?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then—And what did you take your degree in?” Business administration. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you got out?” Well, I sold insurance for a year. Didn’t like that. Went to work for Sears, Roebuck and Company. Got on their training program because I had a college degree, and I was a veteran. And thirty-two years later, I retired. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now you said a little bit about this already, but overall, how do you think your time in service affected you, or what did you take out of it?” I think everybody should be in the service. Not for four years or six years or whatever they want, but I think everybody has to be familiar with working with other people and depending—And I’d already passed that before I ever went into the service because I was the oldest, things were tough, my dad was killed—So I had a couple different avenues to take. (54:29) So I think it all paid out, so I’m not disappointed with my life. I got a great daughter. I got two sons; one’s already retired. So… Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, so you weren’t such an old man then after all. At least, not when you were in the Corps.” No. Nope. Interviewer: “All right. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to share this story today.” How can you remember all that? You can’t. You got a machine there. It recorded everything. Interviewer: “That’s right.” (55:07) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BuckinghamR2174V Title A name given to the resource Buckingham, Richard (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-05 Description An account of the resource Richard "Buck" Buckingham was born in Detroit, Michigan in 1929. Buckingham grew up in Detroit and graduated from Redford High School in 1947. He then attended Hillsdale College for two years before transferring to Michigan State University where he stayed for one year. In 1951, Buckingham considered joining the Air Force, but this ended up not happening because the program he was interested in was cut off. However, in December 1951, Buckingham was drafted into the Marine Corps. Buckingham first reported to Detroit and was then sent to Parris Island, South Carolina where he went through a twelve-week training program. Once Buckingham completed his training, he joined the 8th Engineer Battalion at Camp Geiger in North Carolina and began working in personnel at an engineering headquarters and service company there. In November 1952, Buckingham moved to Arlington, Virginia and started working at the Headquarters Marine Corps. During his time in Arlington, Buckingham drove a Jeep in Dwight D. Eisenhower's inaugural parade, met his future wife who worked for the Air Force, and eventually became a corporal. In December 1953, Buckingham's enlistment ended, and he returned to Michigan State University where he earned a degree in business administration. After graduating, Buckingham sold insurance for a year before landing a longlasting job at Sears, Roebuck, and Company. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Buckingham, Richard B. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/36b6ebab4a0a88e5e58853a1be007228.mp4 b674823532fe1c87c3cb08fcb26dd975 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1104220a490c41ebc35fc40000451b26.pdf ece8ea84db1a5768dcea7d166edd1aa5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Evelyn Tolley Buckingham, United States Air Force Interviewee: Linda Namenye Interview Length: (46.08) Interviewed by Dr. James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're talking today with Linda Namenye of Spring Lake, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now we're doing something a little bit different from normal here because we're actually talking about Linda's mother, was Evelyn Tolley Buckingham who served in The United States Air Force. She's no longer with us, but she wrote an account of her story and Linda knows a good deal about it, so we are going to put that story together with through a recombination of Linda's memories and what her mother wrote. All right now one thing your mother did not write about was anything about her life really before going into the Air Force, so begin at the beginning. Where and when was she born? She was born in Madison, South Dakota and just think Little House on the Prairie. She was... her father was a farmer, had lots of property outside of Madison. She grew up during the depression but she said she never felt the- the effect- the effects of the depression because her mother was an awesome seamstress, so her mother always made you know clothes out of the- the burlap bags and- and such and they always had food because they lived on the farm and weren't really connected to this to the- to the city. Madison is only about four thousand people. Interviewer: Okay now did they own their farm? �Yes, they did yes. Interviewer: Were they able to keep that through the 30s? No actually the bank did take it over for about ten years. It used to belong to my greatgrandfather and then he lost it and it went back to the bank, but my grandfather continued to farm it and then he purchased it back from the bank after those ten years. So, it's been in the- it's been in the family for about a hundred years now. (2.23) Interviewer: Okay so there's still a family member who's farming it now? Yes. Interviewer: Alright, and what kind of schooling did she have? She went to a one-room school house until she was about 8th grade and she said it was... she loved the learning because she was the only student in her class and so many times the teacher would say ya know, “Evelyn come sit in with the... you know the next oldest class and come sit in with us,” and so she learned to love to read and she used to read the dictionary at night because it was just something fun; learning new words and such. So, she was at a one-room schoolhouse until high school and then she went in town. The one-room �schoolhouse was only a mile away from where her farm was, and then- and then after, for high school she went in town to a regular high school. Interviewer: Okay and how far was that from home? It was about three miles, and I'm not sure how she got there. She had another sister- she was number three out of four children, she had another sister who was two and a half years older so I'm not sure whether her sister Shirley drove them into town. I'm sure they didn't walk into town because it was all country roads. Interviewer: So that wasn't all walking ten miles to school kind of thing. On no definitely to the one room school house it was blizzards and it was uphill both ways and yeah. Interviewer: Alight now did she tell any stories about life during World War II when she would have been still in school at that point. (3.58) Yes, she wanted to go into service and that's what makes her stories so- to me so unique is that she wanted to go into the service, she wanted to serve her country she wanted to see the world and she wanted to go into the Air Force because there was the capability of going all over the world. So, when she graduated from high school, she wanted to go into the �service but at that time she had to be 21 to go in on her own. Graduating at 18 she would need her parent's permission, and they would not sign for her. Interviewer: I guess it was asking a little bit about before that when she was still younger, when World War II was still going on? Did she kind of say anything about what life was like they ever talk about rationing or anything else like that? Not... well she never felt those effects because she lived on a farm and my grandpa got extra rations for- for fuel, because he was a farmer. She just didn't feel, she just didn't feel the rationings part of it. She just always said that she- she wanted to do something for her country. She wanted to serve her country. Interviewer: And you don't really have a sense of exactly when that feeling started for her? Late high school, I know that when she graduated from high school, she wanted to go into the service, but grandma and grandpa said no. Interviewer: Okay what year did she finish high school? She graduated in 49. (5.22) �Interviewer: Okay alright and so she wants, she wants to go in the service and her parents were saying no so what does he do at that point? She stayed in town and I know she had a variety of jobs. I know that she worked as a typesetter in- for the newspaper. So, she had jobs, but her sights were on getting into the service, and as soon as she turned 21, she signed up. Interviewer: alright and then- the, the air force offered her a chance to go different places and see things. Did she, I suppose- I guess the opportunities were still kind of limited still for what women could do in any branch of the service. Very much so in the Air Force was a newer branch. It hadn't been officially recognized for quite some time. Interviewer: Yeah but like 1947 or something like that was one of they actually broke away from the army and became its own service branch, and so they- and they were generally more progressive they certainly were in terms of integration and things like that. So, they may have been a little bit more open to having women doing things, and ultimately in the Air Force most of you stay on the ground and they need a lot of support personnel (6.30) Right, right. �Interviewer: Alright so now what did she- what do we know about the enlistment process or how she went about getting in? That I am not sure, she states... Interviewer: How does she describe going in? Okay, (reading) “after thinking of nothing else since in my teens I finally was old enough to join the Air Force in February of 52. In those days you had to be 21 or have your parents permission I thought that it was very unfair but now I see the wisdom of it I would have done just what my parents did and that was say no. That was a really big decision to make and I didn't really know what it entailed but throughout World War II I felt I needed to do something. After a tearful goodbye at the train station in Madison I and my fellow enlistees headed for Sioux Falls where we had physicals and we took the oath of enlistment. My fellow enlistments- enlistees were all men that I knew from the Madison area. Several were younger than I was, but they could enlist at 18. We were met at the train and put up at a local hotel. I had never stayed at a hotel before.” She was a farm girl. “And I found myself on the fourth floor all alone.” Because she was the only woman that was on that particular train there. “The men had to double up which was good points, but I must admit I shed a tear or two. What was ahead I really had no idea. The next morning, we went to South Dakota USA and USAF recruiting service group and at the Wilson terminal and we got our physicals. After that we had formal swearing in and then we were escorted to the train station and got on a military car. I was the only woman, at least until we got to Omaha, Nebraska when Marilyn Mikkel �joined us. We went to San Antonio, Texas by way of Kansas City we stayed on the same train all the way picking up other men and women along the way. The women had a car to ourselves and in no time we seemed to pick up new recruits at every station. at San Antonio we were picked up by military buses and were taken to Lackland Air Force Base. My life was going to change.” So, going from not hardly ever leaving Madison, to traveling completely south, and she really wasn't- she really didn't know what she was getting herself into. (8.58) Interviewer: Right and she also- but she did also note in there that since World War II she had been thinking about that. And then she also points out for us that men could- needed their parents' permission when they were seventeen but once they're 18 then they could go. Right. Interviewer: But for women they did it differently. For women it was different. Interviewer: Alright okay so and that did she tell you anything else about- either saying the physical or the induction process of the train ride beyond what you just read? It was very formal, not a lot of talking and joking going on. I think everybody was just trying to prepare themselves for what basic training was gonna be - was gonna be like. �Interviewer: Okay. And she was kind of a maverick as being- well she was the only woman until they got to Kansas City? Interviewer: To Omaha. To Omaha, yeah. And then slowly picking up more and more women. So, it was uncharted territory. Interviewer: Now what does he tell us about training? Training, oh my goodness, she said she always told me after meeting my father and marrying him boot camp was the best thing that happened to her. she was third born and very independent very much the Maverick. had no problem going against the- against the grain and so here she is she's in a place far away and she's, she's being ordered around, and she can't ask questions. So as far as the basic training… oh let's see. Interviewer: Well I mean she's written her story, so I think we can kind of… Right. �Interviewer: So, does she have... what does she say after talk about getting to San Antonio what does he put in next? (10.53) Okay, “we were given a nice welcome after being told to line up and something very few of us had ever done. It was the beginning of a great adventure for me. I would learn to take orders without questions, the most important thing I think I learned. Our barracks were brand-new, and we were the first occupants. We were then marched down to the men's mess hall they did not have separate tables. In fact, each table had two men and two women, but you could not talk. After the first week this rule was changed, but you are sure that you learned a lot of selfcontrol quickly. We got our physicals and shots galore.” My mom said that when she got her shots- lots of shots in both arms she was supposed to salute for a half an hour, and that was to help with not being so sore. “We settled down to some serious business, not to mention a lot of marching. I couldn't understand what was so important about learning to march until later: it was discipline. Our barracks were near the men's barrack barracks but no fraternizing. that held up for about three weeks and then we got to meet them. There was a building called Arnold Hall on the base and dances were held there.” My mother loved to dance she was only five foot two, very short and so she found out that dancers needed to be really tall, but she still always loved to dance so we always hear about the dances. “So, dances were held there. the local girls came, and we thought it was unfair that we had to wear uniforms but at least we got to wear our dress shoes, and not our little Abner shoes those were high-top leather boots and the only ones I could get in my size were brown. I spent the whole time trying to dye them black, even the soles.” Let’s see and then �they talked about …” There was a nice chapel near our barracks for service of all religions. our barracks got a little landscaping while we were there, so we put a few bushes around in place and we found some white stones left over from the building so in our free time we spelled out our training group was which was the seven- three seven zero zero WAF training group. she was in flight 2222 and she never got to see a gun. “I almost got to go for a parachute training and gas masks I have a nice picture of myself with it on, but weather was wrong for the test, and I didn't argue about it. Mostly we learned military protocol ranks insignias and how to salute and how to hurry up and wait, with a smile on your face. We also got to parade just once, and I was in the back.” Because she was the short one. “They started out with the tall ones and worked their way down to us shorties, this was Armed Forces Day May 17, 1952.” She does go on about drill instructors, “so our DI the drill instructors were tough, but they were nice.” Which was a different story from what I heard from my father who was in the Marines. “Sergeant King and Corporal Caboose did a great job teaching us to work together. I made good friends there, women from all over the United States.” She got to see the Alamo while she was there. “and then it was test time, my tests showed me to be a candidate for air traffic controller. they can't- I can't imagine why, my eyes would have gone crazy with that little screen. fortunately, they needed teletype operators and a group of us were transferred to Warren Air Force Base in Cheyenne, Wyoming” So from there she goes on to Wyoming. (14.35) Interviewer: Alright does she- did she tell you anything else about the training in San Antonio or life in San Antonio that wasn't covered here? �She always told me about, during basic training, you had your- your dresser and everything had to be folded up perfectly in the same way and so there were always inspections and everything was expected to be in order the same way, and she said that it was that discipline that really helped her later on in life, to learn how to do things correctly, not ask questions, follow orders. Interviewer: Did you say what happened if something was out of order? (15.18) You know she didn't. She just always stressed that pantyhose had to be exactly this size and this side of the dresser and everything else had to be perfect. So, my mom- my mom always set a high bar for herself and I think that she saw that as a challenge is to, to do her best and to get as far as quickly as she could in the service, so... and she made sergeant within about a year so… Interviewer: And she was referring to sort of the-the problem of what kind of shoes you wore and having to wear you little Abner. Now at this point where they, was the uniform- did the uniform have a skirt, or were they wearing slacks, or do we not know that or is there pictures of her? The only pictures that I saw of her were the- she was wearing a skirt. Yeah, when she was in her- was in her dress uniform. �Interviewer: Yeah okay which is likely what you’d wear if you were going to the dance too. Right right, you know we're talking the early 50s. Interviewer: The early 50s yeah but still you, you can't wear a party dress or something like that. Yes, oh yeah but- but the women that were in the service were required to wear the uniforms were women coming from off the base we're able to just you know- casual. Interviewer: Right okay alright so then let's then move on now to, to Wyoming here and Warren Air Force, what's going on here? Okay and that's- I was really impressed with because here's a woman going into the Air Force and she had never flown in an airplane before. “So, a group of us were transferred to Warren Air Force Base in Cheyenne- Cheyenne, Wyoming we flew in a DC-3 to Denver Colorado. it was my first ride in a big airplane. All I could see were flames coming out of the engine. Later I got to sit in the jump seat when we landed at Denver. Your first landing on that tiny little ribbon was very scary, I didn't leave the landing strip was wide enough until we touched down and I began to breathe again, but it was a thrill I'll always remember.” And she always loved to travel, she loved to fly. “So, we were bused to Francis E Warren Air Force Base in Cheyenne this was an old port dating from the Indian Wars. We went from a new building that had four to a room, to a hundred-year-old brick building there were about 50 of �us in one long room. They had coal heat and it looked like it had never been cleaned. it was a long building divided in the middle; guys were on one side gals on the other side with the hall doors that were sealed in between. Showers we were in the basement and you also washed your clothes there, but it was not all work and no play. She had a little redheaded friend, Joy from Georgia who woke up one morning to snow. She had never seen snow and got so excited that she ran out of the out the door in her pink pajamas. She laid down in the snow and she threw snow in the air much to the delight of the other half of the building they were hanging out the windows who would ever had had screens- window screens in the wild wild west.” So, after that then they got down to study and this was an interesting, like a pivotal point in- in my mom's training. She said, “we settled down to study, most of our class were old friends from basic training. along the way I caught strep throat and had to break down and just go to the sick bay. They promptly put me in the hospital, it seemed like another girl had gotten the same thing and it developed into rheumatic fever. So, I was not allowed to even raise my head. the vampire came regularly to suck my blood. I recovered quite nicely but that ended my short career in giving blood they didn't want any more. Of course, I was a week behind in school, so I was rewarded with a whole new classroom of men.” She was the only woman in the- in the class. “They knew that I was coming, and they had their jackets and ties on as befitted the occasion. They weren't too thrilled as the instructor had made it clear that there would be no bad language and no bad jokes, there was going to be a lady present. My how times have changed. my first surprise came when the instructor called out ‘TOLLEY.’ Behind me I heard a man say ‘here’ and the place was dead quiet. I turned around and he was a very black man.” My mom was very very pale English background. “His name was Andy and that had come before Evelyn in the- the roster I just said, ‘well hello cousin’ and everyone let out a laugh and �applauded we got to be good friends the next few weeks. I really buckled down to study as I'm sure that they thought that a woman couldn't do the work, but I did well, and I moved up to corporal from my hard work.” So, you were talking about integration and that story just… (20.32) Interviewer: Right now, so was this simply a training assignment there or was she going to actually have a regular job on that base? It was, it was no, it was a training assignment and then from there she was assigned to go to Washington D.C. to the Pentagon. Interviewer: Okay now what else does she have to say here about, about Wyoming? Social life: “so we also had a social life there I have the match box covers to prove it, and no I did not smoke. The club Araby in Cheyenne was our favorite bar, and no I didn't drink, but we used to gather there. we- once we decided it was summertime it was May in Wyoming and the Sun was warm. The group of us went to a lake and stretched out on our towels to get some Sun, I fell asleep laying on my stomach.” And my mother is very very very pale. “So, I got the worst sunburn ever, my back was blistered, and my friend Joy put some face cream on it and that really set it afire. My uniform was starched and there were some mighty uncomfortable days, but you couldn't take a day off from- from a non-military injury so I just survived” So it's interesting my father had also written his story and my mother really talks about the social side of it. The view from from being a woman as opposed to my father in �the marines, where its- you know what his assignments were and- and how he got there and such. (22.00) Interviewer: So, what was she actually learning to do there? Does she- does she ever tell you anything about the physical side? To tell teletypes she learned the communications to reading the teletypes which is what she ended up doing in the Pentagon. Interviewer: okay and had she known how to type before she went in or? Yes, yeah, she learned it in high school and then when she worked for the newspaper she also… she also did that. Interviewer: Okay she had some meaningful preparations for doing this that probably helped with her speed and a few other things. Yes Interviewer: Aright, now did she, do we have any more about that or? �No and then- and then when she was done with the training there, she had a very short leave she was able to go from Wyoming backup to Madison, South Dakota, see family for a short while. And she does talk about- she does talk about the change, let's see... no I think that's- that's when she went back again but she had a very very short time and she was put on a bus in a train in Sioux Falls and she made her way over to, to Washington DC. Interviewer: Okay so now what's her next assignment? (23.18) Her next assignment she was living on base in Fort Myer in Arlington. Right next to the Arlington Cemetery and then she was assigned to go to the Pentagon and work in the- the communications and let’s see, she does mention... “I was assigned to be a tape relay center as a communication specialist. I was the only one of my group to go there, some went to Air Force Andrew, Andrews Air Force Base and some were sent stateside to a station called JEEZ, ‘Jezz,’ and they had to go through JEZ to get into the JEV where I worked and you had to pass through the security twice to get into the hall and the bathroom. Once I was at JEV this was the overseas communication. I worked at a teletype machine, just imagine a computer six feet wide- four feet- six feet high and four feet wide and nearly that deep. There was a keyboard, but you didn't have a screen. Everything was done on a perforated tape which you would read by knowing what series of punches meant. We could send messages about work that was... and that was a printout. I got some proposals that way and a lot of nonsense, never a dull moment. In my case the military communications were scrambled or coded. You had to have top-secret clearance to work there. Can't you just see the military guy wandering �around my hometown of Madison asking questions about my character, but I guess my character was okay and my family's too. A friend of mine was Polish and her parents were immigrants, she did not get clearance because she had so many relatives overseas that could be intimidated. I love the work, but the schedule was something else we worked eight-hour shifts for eight days. Going in at 3 p.m. and getting out at 11:00 and then we had three days off. then we went back on a different shift from the 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. Another three days off and back on the 7:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. shift. Fortunately, we were young, and I learned to fall asleep at any time. I often had to stay late if top-secret messages were coming in because I was responsible for it.” My mother always told me that she was not able to talk about what she did with her job in the Pentagon until, until she wrote this. This is the first time that I had learned what she did. “In October of 52 I was made honor flight from my Squadron, it came with a very nice letter from Major Schultz. I also was selected in November, but his letter was shorter, but with the same sentiments.” So she was talking about, she was in charge of the teletype information coming in from Africa especially, and she said that there werewhen the people on the other end found out there was a woman receiving it that's when they would get, she would, it was ticker tape that was called throwaways, and those were the proposals and then ‘would you wait for me until I get back’ and you know ‘six more months and I'll be coming home, would you wait for me at the train station?’ So, she said those were throwaways because she just got rid of them really quickly so that nobody would know. But the information that she would get would be if someone was injured or someone was killed and then she would have to make sure that that information was passed on to the correct branch of service so that families could be notified. She said it was very hard, sometimes she would see a name that she knew, and they weren't, they weren't just �names she just always thought you know this is somebody's brother, you know somebody's son, and so it always- it always affected her. (27.35) Interviewer: Okay of course, I guess most of the- the place where most people would be getting killed at that point would have been Korea, but she was getting stuff from Africa. Now were these relays via Africa that she would... So, something from the station being sent in Africa? Yes, yeah from a station in Africa yeah. Interviewer: I'm not sure that we had a whole lot of personnel in Africa. Not much, no. Interviewer: But I guess there were some. She had mentioned some of the places that she... okay, “you were sending messages to the guys in Africa or Korea.” Interviewer: Okay or Korea. �Yes “the messages were called throw always because you wanted to get rid of them before somebody saw the message they came from the lonely guys and when they knew there was a girl at the other end, they were likely to propose.” So... Interviewer: Okay but I think then that we've got Korea there in the mix of things and that's gonna be where the casualties come from. Right right. (28.42) Interviewer: Alright so what else is she telling us about life in Washington then and what she's doing? Washington was just a wonderland for her she came from a very small Midwestern town, you know 4,000 people. People really didn't leave and now she's in Washington DC, she's in the air force and all the monuments and the government was there and- and so when sheshe went back- she went back home and then she said that she went back to- to Washington DC after the- after her time in Cheyenne she went back. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah and she said when she first got there, she just decided to be a tourist, and she went to all the monuments. She went and did most of the monuments by herself a few times she got �the- the tours, which shows her independence you know that she didn't she was not - she was not a coward in any way. She was really on the leading edge of everything. So, she let's see she went to see a lot of the monuments, she said she took a picture of just about every, every monument that there was. “So, I spent my first few days after reporting to work of the Pentagon as a serious tourist. I think I photographed every statue in the city and there were a lot, and every building; the White House, the Capitol, the Washington Monument, the National Gallery of Art, Jefferson Monument, even the gates to the bridge that led to the Lincoln Memorial and to Arlington Cemetery. Of course, I went to see Lee's mansion and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and I wandered through the cemetery, which was a very peaceful place.” So, she was, her barracks were on one side of the cemetery and then my dad actually when he made it to Washington DC he was on the other side of the cemetery. (30.51) Interviewer: And did she say much about the people that she worked with or the set up in her office or anything else like that or? She mentioned the security, “the- the Pentagon was a huge maze and I knew how to get to my work, but when it came to wandering the halls I remembered the old story; there was a bird Colonel that had wandered off and was never seen before, so the rumors went. At night we would go to the upper floor to get some food the escalators had stopped so you just ran up and down them. A little snack bar that we went to was not really a place to dally. The tables were little rounds that- that were on tall pedestals, you stood at them and ate quickly. You had been standing most of the time at work, especially when you were sending the messages to the guys �in Africa or Korea.” So, she said that there was security, you had security going when you left your job and when you when you came back. So not, not really not much except for the weird schedule that she had. My father, by the time they met, he was trying to get used to that schedule and being available when she was, and he had a car as she didn't and so he would come and pick her up, you know in the middle of the night or whatever. To make sure that that she was safe and didn't have to take public transportation. (32.27) Interviewer: Okay so what else has she got in her story, that we haven't brought in yet? I think the- the change that went on. She was able to go back home for Christmas. Interviewer: Right. And so, she got there, and she said that she called her folks when she got into Sioux Falls and they came to- to get her. “It was so good to be home with family at Christmas but afterwards I realized that I had found a whole new life with my new friends. My old friends were still gossiping about everyone and none seemed to aspire much except for getting married and that was not for me.” Those are famous last words because she- she went home at Christmas time and at New Year's Eve she met my father and they were married three months later. So, “she broke off- she permanently broke off her on-again, and off-again boyfriend and headed back to DC.” So, I think she did a lot of growing, she was starting to �see the world, she was recognized for the talents that she had and she, she loved it. It was just her pace. (33.44) Interviewer: It also kind of parallels what I get from a lot of male veterans I mean some of the Vietnam guys, and certainly the both men and women who've been in the service more recently. They talked about coming back, and you know their friends from high school are still playing video games or they're doing whatever it was that they were doing, and now there's this whole other set of experiences that they have that these people don't understand. And a whole other life that was out there. Yeah meeting people from all over, she had mentioned that about when she was down in at Lackland, just she met people from Hawaii and from Georgia and she was the only one from South Dakota, the only woman but she said you know just people all over. She said her friend from Hawaii tried to teach her how to hula dance and she said she could never quite get it, she can do the dancing, but the hula was just a little bit hard for her. But she talked about her world was just opened up by meeting all these people from all over. Interviewer: Do you have any senses or how the people that she worked with treated her? Now basically the, the major real good things about her or whatever but any other sense of that? (34.56) �Everything that I get was all respect you know she worked really, really hard I think she tried to prove that a woman could do this job and so I don't know if she had that chip in her shoulder like you know I've got to prove it or something, but everything was respectful. I never got the the image that that she was just a bobble, you know just because she was a woman, and I think that- and especially at that time, I don't think they put too much value in women's service you know so, but she just always talked that they were all respected you know. Interviewer: Well it was the kind of job where good the way you were describing it you really couldn't afford to make mistakes, like you can't see what you're typing. So getting it right and getting it right matters, so if you've got somebody in there who's coming in and getting it right anybody who's in charge of that might be very happy, hence the promotion. And he did make the Honor Flight and making sergeant very quickly she was very pleased with that and I've got a feeling like my grandparents were probably very fearful you know that she's going off into this big world and, but she was doing really well. (36.20) Interviewer: Alright so now we've gotten to the point in her story here where she's gone home for Christmas and now, she comes back. Yes, yeah so, she- she had just gotten back, and it was right after Christmas and she was told by her friends you know you get lonely or something we can go out and do something. �So, this is where her life really changes, if it hadn't changed before. So okay, “I had lots of time leave time, so I went home for Christmas.” When she came back, oh this is how she, right before she went back, she was told that if she wore her uniform and she went to the train station or the bus station, if they had room, they would let her on... well she didn't get on, she didn't get on. There were higher-ranking people. So, she finally came back to the base and she still had her uniform- uniform on, so her friends were going up to, to Marine headquarters and “I was on the other side of Arlington Cemetery from Fort Myer I went a long uniform and all. I imagined that I stood out a bit at the slop shoot.” Which was the name of the NCO there. “But I had a good time and then hopped on a bus over to Andrews base again I wasn't the only one waiting. Finally, there was one other guy that said that if we chipped in on gas, he would drive all the way to, to the- to the west. He lived in Oklahoma, so there were six of us, two guys and four girls and it was a wild trip. Heavy heavy snow storms all the way. Dropped one girl off at Indiana and then I left in Kansas City for the train station.” So, she went home she realized the changes, broke it off with her on-again, offagain boyfriend. And so, her parents sent her on- a on a train back to, to Washington. So, “I got in on New Year's Eve and some of my marine friends said that if I got lonely for them to head back to DC, so my WAF friends and I headed out to the slop shoot and we were going to celebrate New Year's Eve. My good friend Whitey came in with a guy I had never seen him before but apparently he had seen me.” Because he had seen her before Christmas when she was trying to head out. “My notorious trip to the marine bar with the Air Force uniform was apparently made a good impression, and now I'm glad that I did it. Whitey's friend was called Buck Buckingham family called him Dick, but his Marine buddies called him Buck and I was impressed with this man. I had not slept for a long time, so I think I wasn't really a ball of fire, �but I had a good time, but that was just the beginning. So, buck called the next day and I think mental telepathy had something to do with that” She was probably sitting in her barracks hoping that he would call. “And then life was a whirlwind. In January he drove the float for Michigan, his home state in the inaugural parade for Eisenhower who was elected president. He looked great in his dress blue uniform, but the collar emblem literally wore a hole in his neck, because I worked multiple shifts Buck would pick me up at work, he worked days so the schedule was getting pretty rough on him. His commanding officer suggested that he should just marry me so that the young marine could get some sleep and he did. He proposed at Great Falls Virginia in February 53. A group of us requisitioned some chicken and some tools from the mess hall and we had a picnic in February. we were married in March of 1953 in the church in- in Arlington and I lived off-base. I made sergeant in April of 53. I then got a medical discharge because I was pregnant with my first child, Bruce, and so ended an exciting life in the Air Force and I went on to have an even more exciting life being married to Buck.” So, at that time if you became pregnant, you got an honorable discharge, so my mom said that she tried hiding the pregnancy for, for quite a while and she said finally being nauseous and not feeling well and starting to show. and she said then they you know, they gave her the honorable discharge, but she said it was really hard, she really wanted to continue on and she loved what she loved, she loved what she did. (41.10) Interviewer: So, this is well before the year of pregnancy uniforms and a lot of other things that they have now. �Right, and it's interesting that both my mom and my dad were in the service when they got married, but they decided to not wear their uniforms for their wedding. And I've asked several times “you know but you were in the service when that be you know great?” And they said that they wanted the wedding to be separate from the service so that when they looked back at the pictures, they would see the wedding, rather than oh we were just in the service. Interviewer: okay now did she tell any other stories about life in Washington or stuff that she did there or the Pentagon that haven't been covered here? Of her time in the service? (41.56) Interviewer: Yeah. She did mention that when she decided that she was going to marry my dad and she sat down with her commanding officer, and she said that he- he first had that commanding officer you know asking questions, and then he turned into that dad figure. “Are you sure you want to marry this man? You've not known him for very long. Your lives are very very different.” My mother came from a very, very small town, farm girl didn't really travel much. She was third born out of four kids. My father grew up in Detroit, very, you know busy place. He was the oldest of three boys, and to have these two people come from such diverse backgrounds to meet in Washington, on New Year's Eve. Married three months �later, and when my mom passed away, they were almost married 60 years. So, I think a lot of it has that, because of the military training that they had, was to, that discipline you know that working together it's a team and they were always a team. Interviewer: Alright now did she work it all out outside the home after they were married or? No, my brother Bruce came along nine months after after they got married and then they moved back to Detroit because my dad had an opportunity for a job there. And then I came along and then my younger brother. So, my mom she didn't work outside the home she worked hard enough inside the home, but she was always on that cutting edge she was the mom that was skateboarding when skateboards first came out. She was the mom that had a computer before the rest of us had a computer, because she was so she just loved being on the edge. She loved being different, she loved, she loved being independent and she was very, very involved as a mom. And it was... she kind of showed us how to think outside of the box and to always- not be afraid to step out and do something different. (44.25) Interviewer: Okay and so then where, you said a little bit about this but it's kind of a good way to close out here. I mean ultimately how do you think that military experience affected her, how did it help shape her? I think it opened her world, going from a very, very small farm community to seeing huge cities. Being involved in the Pentagon. Meeting important people, people seeing her worth. �I told you that she was five foot two she always told me TNT comes in small packages and that was her. She was she was always on the cutting edge of doing things. I think the discipline you know that she learned in- in basic training. In our home, my dad was very much the- the more stricter, you know parent but my mom still expected big things of us. So, she- she also you know had that discipline too. I think it just opened her world and it was something that she was always able to say with pride you know that she was in the Air Force. Obviously, my dad would get recognition because he was, he was a marine he was a man, but he was always the first one to point out that mom made sergeant before he did so it was something that he was very, very proud of. (46.01) Interviewer: Alright yeah well it makes for a unique story. Thank you very much for coming in and thank you very much. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BuckinghamE2178V Title A name given to the resource Buckingham, Evelyn (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-11 Description An account of the resource Linda Namenye of Spring Lake, Michigan, tells the story of her mother, Evelyn Tolley Buckingham, who served in The United States Air Force. Buckingham was born in Madison, South Dakota and grew up during the Depression. She graduated in 1949 and enlisted into the Air Force in February of 1952. Following her training at Lackland Air Force Base, she was to Warren Air Force Base in Cheyenne, Wyoming to be a teletype operator. She was then assigned to go to Washington D.C. and work for the Pentagon. In the Pentagon she handled communications, reading the teletypes. Her next assignment she was living on base in Fort Myers in Arlington. She worked in JEV, secretive overseas communications on a teletype machine. After moving to Detroit, Michigan, with her Marine husband, she didn't work outside the home once they started having children. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Namenye, Linda Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f91c6dac56213c60d637c3deaa9f9409.mp4 94288fce3dd98c846d89ba871ae8a984 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e5d0a7f2ef14580f4f8da00ba82dcfc.pdf d8e41fd421049f5b32974037eccd8b16 PDF Text Text Bort, Frank Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Frank Bort Length of Interview: (01:23:20) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay, Frank. Give us some background on yourself, and to start with, where and when were you born?” Yes. I was born January 21st, 1945 in Youngstown, Ohio. Interviewer: “And did you grow up there, or did you move around?” Well, I was born and raised on a farm. It was my grandfather’s farm, and that was around Canfield, Ohio. And anyway, I lived there until up to about age eighteen or age nineteen. Interviewer: “Okay. Did you finish high school?” Yes. I went to Cardinal Mooney High School. Catholic high school in Youngstown, Ohio. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you graduated?” After I graduated from high school, I filled out my application to be a Catholic priest. So anyway, I went to St. Gregory’s Seminary in Cincinnati, and I was there for two years. (1:08) First year was a lot of Latin. This was 1963, and this is before the Vatican II. We had a lot of Latin, so the first year I was in—I was on there for two years, but a lot of it was learning Latin. Interviewer: “Okay, and then after those two years, what did you do?” After that, then I transferred to John Carroll University, a Jesuit college in Cleveland, and I was there for three years. And then I graduated from John Carroll University. I majored in psychology, and I was drafted shortly after that. Interviewer: “Okay. Now had you decided by then not to become a priest?” Well, yeah. I had decided in the seminary. Just wasn’t for me. It just—No, it wasn’t for me because I had this great interest in women. I said, “This ain’t going to work.” I said—Yeah. (2:02) �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “All right. So you went out. You got a psychology major. Of course, you have a deferment through the time you’re in college, or at least you had four years of it.” Five, actually, because two in the seminary and then three at John Carroll. Interviewer: “Yeah. I think the government only normally let you have four though.” But I think if you’re in the seminary, they add a— Interviewer: “That could be it, but regardless, you did not get a draft notice until after you graduated.” Correct. Interviewer: “Okay. So now at this point when you’ve got the draft notice, how much did you know about Vietnam?” Boy, that’s a good question. How much did I know about Vietnam? I had some knowledge about—that they called the domino theory. There was this fear of communism coming down and taking over. And I had been through what’s called ranger training at John Carroll University because they had a big ROTC program. I was not part of ROTC, but I got involved with the rangers. And yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Now what did that actually consist of?” Learning how to rappel down mountains and a lot of exercise. Running around the campus. And I don’t recall a whole lot more than that, but yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. So then when do you actually start training?” I’m sorry. Train? Okay. I started training—That would have been in September of 1968. Interviewer: “Okay, and where were you doing your basic training?” I did that at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and I was actually in the same barracks as Elvis Presley except years later. Interviewer: “All right, and now what did the basic training consist of?” �Bort, Frank As far as I can remember, I think it was twelve weeks. Well, a lot of running with the pack in your back, and, I think, learning how to handle weapons. (4:10) Some—I don’t know—karate. Different things. Different—I forget what they call them—confidence courses they would put you through. Learn how to use a bayonet. Interviewer: “How much emphasis was there on discipline?” Quite a bit. Discipline was a major thing. If one man messed up, the whole company had to pay for it. Just like if you were going to have a free weekend, if one man messed up—If he took an extra piece of pie, you know. Whatever. Then the whole company paid for it. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right, and how did the instructors treat you?” I was fortunate where I was because I’ve always been kind of a sensitive guy. Somehow I feel God gave me a great—what do you call those—not platoon sergeants, but the— Interviewer: “Oh, drill instructors, or…?” Yeah, yeah. Yes, so I had a real interesting drill instructor, and he seemed to understand me. And so we got along quite well, but, I mean, it was all about discipline and so forth. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and so how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to military life?” I think I kind of laughed my way through a lot of basic—I thought it was so funny. Some of the stuff just made me laugh. Interviewer: “Now did you understand what they were doing?” No, I could understand what they were doing, but I just found it funny. Just funny. And anyway, I used to make a—Well—Yeah, but I just found it funny as well. (6:05) Interviewer: “Okay. Well, now you were probably older than a lot of the guys you were training…?” I was twenty-four. Yeah, so in many ways I got a kick out of it. I don’t know. I just did. It was different than anything that was—So I—But it was. I enjoyed it. I don’t know. Plus, you had all the camaraderie with all the guys you’re with, so it was—I didn’t mind it. Interviewer: “Okay. Now you had a college degree. Did they encourage you to go to OCS or NCO-School or anything else like that?” �Bort, Frank Well, let’s see. Okay. After basic training, then I went to advanced infantry, and that was in Fort Polk, Louisiana. And anyway, I heard that was the toughest place as far as infantry goes. People would sign up to get to Vietnam just to get out of Fort Polk. And so anyway, they had this place called Tiger Village. Tiger Village at Fort Polk. But anyway, it’s not so much, I don’t think, that they asked me. I think it was more they told me, “You’re going to NCO-School in Fort Benning, Georgia.” And I said, “Fine.” Interviewer: “All right. Now was that after Fort Polk?” It was after, I think—I believe it was after—Yeah, after Fort Polk. Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now tell me a little bit more about what the training program at Fort Polk was like.” Yeah, that was a challenge. Fort Polk—They had a lot of snakes. They had a lot of snakes, and so you had to watch out. You had to be careful. But I remember a lot of it was running with packs. But I can remember just the strictness of it. (8:05) It was like the real army. I wouldn’t know how to describe it. It was just—how do you say—It was just very professional army. It was just very challenging. Very—what have you. Interviewer: “How much of it was geared to Vietnam?” I think almost all of it. Interviewer: “Okay. Did they have Vietnam veterans training you?” I don’t really remember, to be honest. At that point I just don’t remember. Interviewer: “All right. Do you remember if they had anything like a mockup Vietnamese village or things like that?” Yes, they had those kind of things. They had those kind of things, and—Sorry. I don’t have a lot of great reactions. Yeah. Interviewer: “That’s okay. All right, but anyway, out of that then you get sent to NCOSchool.” Right. At Fort Benning, Georgia. Yeah. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now what was that program like?” Well, they call it Shake n’ Bakes. Shake n’ Bakes. And what was that program like? Well, that’s where you’re learning more advanced things. How to use a compass. And, you know, in front of you are the squad leaders, you know, leading men because the squad leader, you know, sergeant like eighty-five, would have like—I think it was six or seven guys under you. So it was learning how to lead troops, and they taught you more about weapons, I think, and so forth. Yeah. (10:02) Interviewer: “Okay. Now was it a harder course than what you had at Fort Polk or about the same level or…?” It was a different kind of a thing. I think Polk was more intense. Yep, I mean, Polk was a real army. It was just—Man, I remember people said, “Man, just get me out of here.” Because it was so intense. “Sign me up for Vietnam.” You know, but—Pardon me. But anyway, Fort Benning as I recall was more discipline, order, how you look in your uniform. Just a different experience. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Now do you think that that training did you any actual good when you got to Vietnam?” I think it did because they taught us leadership, and, you know, I knew I had that extra experience because I was there, I then went through training, so I think I expected more out of myself also. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now I think the standard procedure for a newly minted sergeant or Shake n’ Bake as they call them was then to send them to a training unit someplace to serve as a junior instructor and get some leadership experience before you go to Vietnam. Did they do that with you?” Yeah, what they did with me is they liked me so much that they actually sent me back to Fort Polk, which they didn’t call Fort Polk. They used to call it Fort Puke. Interviewer: “All right, and what was your job there?” My job there was to train troops. I had, I guess, a platoon or something under me. A barracks, you know. And they had the drill instructors there, but I was more just in charge of a platoon or barracks. Whatever. (12:02) And so, I guess, to provide order. Just to make sure discipline was supplied and so forth. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and just give you some practice giving orders and being in charge.” �Bort, Frank Yeah, because I was in charge of barracks. I was—You know. Whatever. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you stay there do you think?” I think twelve weeks. I think so. Interviewer: “Okay. I think a lot of the training cycles were usually eight weeks.” Oh. The eight weeks. I forgot. Anyway, I forgot. Yeah. Interviewer: “But basically you’re with one group for one training cycle.” Yeah. Right. Interviewer: “Okay. Now once you finish that, do you get a leave home, or do you just go straight to Vietnam?” After that, my—It may have been my—My thoughts are not that—That’s very possible. But then I remember going to Fort Lewis, Washington, and that’s where I flew out of. Was Fort Lewis, Washington. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember the route you took or where you stopped along the way?” To Fort Lewis? Interviewer: “Oh. From Fort Lewis. When you left Fort Lewis to go to Vietnam.” Oh, yeah, yeah. From there my recollection is we flew to Hawaii and then Japan, but I remember you were not allowed to get off the plane in Japan, which I found strange. But anyway, yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, and where did you land in Vietnam?” Well, I landed in what’s called Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base. It’s interesting. Something I found fascinating is before the plane landed, I had this inspiration that I couldn’t die. I had this inspiration I couldn’t die. I wondered. It’s like, “What is this?” You know. And so I start thinking, “Well, God must have some sort of purpose for me afterwards.” You know. But I just found that like, “Wow.” And—Fascinating. Yeah. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Did you land during the day or at night?” Oh, brother. This I don’t remember. I would say night. I think it was probably night. (14:11) Interviewer: “What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there?” Well, it was frightening. I mean, my first thought—I said, “My guys, this is it. This is Vietnam.” You know. Not knowing what to expect. It’s just like a little frightening. And so what I recall is when I landed in Saigon, they put us on these C-130s without seats. There was no seats on them. Because I was going up to what’s called I Corps, which is Huế Phu Bai. Interviewer: “Well, did you spend any time on the ground in Saigon first or at Tan Son Nhut or at another base? Because usually they bring people in, and then they get given their orders and they’re sent someplace.” Yeah, I think you’re right because it was when I was at Tan Son Nhut. That’s when I found out I’ll be with the 101st Airborne. That’s my first recollection, and also something I always remember is they had this special toothpaste, which was nine percent. The ten was fluoride. I don’t why, but I remember these strange things. So yeah. So I guess that was at Tan Son Nhut. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but then they put you in a C-130.” Yeah, and they turned off all the lights. I remember they turned off all the lights, and they said, “You are now in a combat zone.” And this I found frightening because we’re flying. We had no seats in the plane. There’s no seats in the plane. Just sitting on the bottom of, you know. Just on a plane without seats, and all the lights are on. And that was—Yeah. An experience. Interviewer: “Okay, and once you get to Phu Bai, what happens?” Well, when I get to Huế Phu Bai, we were taken to a place called Camp Evans, and when I got there, then I was directed to go to a certain barracks, I guess. (16:07) The Charlie Company. Interviewer: “Okay. Charlie Company of what unit?” Charlie Company of—Charlie 2nd Battalion, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne. Interviewer: “Yeah, and 2nd Battalion of the 506th Regiment.” Right. It was the—Right. They called the Band of Brothers. Band of Brothers. Yeah. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “Okay, so you joined that, and what kind of reception do you get when you join the unit?” Yeah, I joined the unit. I recall everything being fine. It was a warm reception. I don’t recall any— Interviewer: “Okay. When did you get to Vietnam?” I believe I arrived, I think, October ‘69. October ‘69. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, and was the Company in base camp, or were they out in the field?” I think—My recollection would have been that most were in the field at that point. That’s my recollection. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you wait for them to come back, or did you go out to join them?” Well, what happened was I wasn’t sure when I got to Vietnam whether I was a conscientious objector or if I wasn’t, and I knew I had to resolve that before I—Now I had to resolve what I, you know—So anyway, I’ll just say I wasn’t real anxious to get out to the battlefield because I wasn’t even sure where my conscience was with all this. And so I was struggling with all this stuff. So anyway—So when I first got there, I was trying to figure out ways to stay from going out in the battlefield. So anyway, I found out one of the doctors on base was from Cleveland, Ohio. (18:06) And so somehow I was talking with this doctor, and I told him I was having a problem. I guess—I don’t know. Some kind of ear problems. Hearing or something. And he said, “Well.” He said, “If you want to have your hearing checked, we have to send you out to that hospital ship, the USS Sanctuary.” Because at that point I was still not keen on—Well, because I didn’t know if that reference to my conscience was even where I was with—No, it hadn’t been resolved, so I was just trying to find ways to bide time or—I don’t know—whatever. So I said, Fine.” So anyway, I went out to the USS Sanctuary. I said, “Here I am on this ship outside.” I said, “There’s got to be something wrong with me.” I said, “There has to be something wrong with me.” So they found out I had a pilonidal cyst. So they said, “Well, you know, you can have this operation for pilonidal cyst.” I said, “Sure.” Because I figured that would just buy me more time. So I ended up having this operation for the pilonidal cyst, and so then they said, “Well, we can’t send you back to Vietnam right now because it might get infected.” And the USS Sanctuary was going into porting Guam or somewhere, so they said, “We have to send you to Japan. We have to send you to Japan.” And I’ll tell you— “Until you get healed.” It’s quite an �Bort, Frank adventure. “We have to send you to Japan to 7th Field Hospital.” So I was on the Sanctuary for a while. How long? I don’t know. Two, three weeks. Whatever. But I remember everybody was smoking pipes and everything there. So anyway, I ended up going to the 7th Field Hospital in Japan, and I was there for—I don’t know—about six weeks. (20:04) And I was a sergeant at that point, so you’d have twenty-four hours on and twenty-four hours off. And at the 7th Field Hospital, which is outside of Tokyo. And so it got to be about Christmastime. They said, “Well, Sergeant Bort, you know, it’s time for you to go back to Vietnam.” So I asked the doctor. I says, “Is there any way that I can stay until after Christmas?” He says, “Sure.” So I stay in Japan until after Christmas. Then I went back to ‘Nam. Interviewer: “Okay. So how did you spend your time in Japan?” How did I spend it? Well, one night I—Well, I was—Let’s see. Being a sergeant. Let’s see. What happened? I don’t remember being in charge that night, but I remember they kept everything in there very clean. We had to polish floors and everything else. But twenty-four hours on and twenty-four hours off. One day I was off base, and I’d missed the last train back to the base. And I met this Japanese guy who used to be an officer. Whatever. He was in politics. And we became friends. And so he showed me all around different places in Japan. Ordinary. You know, people wouldn’t go. So how I spent it was there’s a place called Shinjuku. Shinjuku was like the Greenwich Village of New York. So I’d go to Shinjuku. You’d see all these famous actresses, and so I had my picture taken with these Japanese actresses and, you know, different things. But I got tuned into the Japanese life. I’d go to these Japanese museums. I would—People, I thought, there were extremely friendly. Very, very friendly. And so I just had one ball, and I just had a great time there. Interviewer: “So when did you actually get back to Vietnam?” Right at the beginning of January. Right around the beginning. Somewhere around the beginning because I had to leave right after Christmas. Yeah. (22:04) Interviewer: “All right, all right. Now this time—So you’re back to your unit, and they probably don’t know who you are.” I’ll tell you who the top—the top sergeant said. He said, “Bort, I’ve never seen anybody get over as much as you. This guy blew the army out of a [?].” He looks at me. He said, “I’ve never seen anybody get over as much as you.” It was funny. Interviewer: “All right. At that point now was your unit in camp?” �Bort, Frank No, they were out, and I had resolved the fact that—Somewhere along the line I had gone to chapel and prayed, and I had said, “Well, I would know if I had a family, and somebody came after my family, I would defend my family.” And I knew I was a very strong anti-communist. So I said, “Well, I’m fighting communism.” I just said to myself, “I want to help stop communism.” And that was, you know. So I resolved the whole thing with God and my conscience. So it’s almost like you’re not really part of—At least my experience—You’re not really part of the experience until you meet the guys you’re going to be with. Until you bond with them, it’s— Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. So where do you meet them?” Out in the field somewhere around—Somewhere close to Ripcord, I guess. We weren’t on Ripcord yet in January, but it was— Interviewer: “January you might have been a little closer to the coast like Firebase Jack or somewhere around there.” Could have been one of those places. O’Reilly or I don’t know where. Kathyrn. I’m not sure. Interviewer: “Yeah. Well, there were people at Kathryn or O’Reilly at different times, and those are kind of between Ripcord and the coast, too. Yeah. I think you may have been at that point in January still more in the lowlands because that was still monsoon.” Could be. Yeah. Could very well be. (24:00) But anyway, I did one of the stupidest things a guy could do. I go out—You know, I’ve flown out on the Huey. The chopper. So I go up to the company commander who’s at there, and I salute the guy in the field. That’s the stupidest thing anybody can do because if there are enemy there, then they can recognize, you know. So immediately it’s like, you know. Because I’ve always felt a bit from some other world. I’ve never been part of this. Interviewer: “Okay. Now who was the company commander at that point?” That was Captain Vazquez. Interviewer: “Oh, okay. And how did Captain Vazquez respond to being saluted?” He was the coolest guy I’ve ever met. This was the most professional soldier. To me, we all considered him to be a soldier soldier. And he never really seemed to get flustered. I don’t remember that guy ever getting flustered. He just—But I just had the greatest respect for that guy. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “All right, and so now who was your platoon leader at that point?” Platoon leader, I believe, at that part was Sergeant Paul Burkey, and Sergeant Paul Burkey and me were—We had grown up very close to each other in Ohio, so it was like—It was very interesting meeting somebody from that area. Interviewer: “Okay, and by reputation he was a pretty good soldier, too.” That was a guy, I felt, who grew up in the jungle. That man was made for the jungle. I mean, he was just something else. Oh, yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, and then what kinds of things were you doing with the unit when you first join it? I mean, kind of January, February. In there.” Well, I remember doing a lot of what they call hoofing, you know, on the ground to different places because Vazquez had been trained with the Green Beret, and I had talked to him later. I said, “Why did we always move so often?” And he said—Well, that’s what he learned in the Green Beret, which is you never stay in one place for, you know, two days. Because I was curious why we were always moving, but that’s what he learned in the Green Beret. And so we did a lot of trekking through the jungles, and that’s what I recall. (26:08) Interviewer: “Okay. Now early on were you having much contact with the enemy, or was it pretty quiet?” Early on there was not much. There really wasn’t much, and it kind of reminded me of being in Boy Scouts. I don’t know why. I just had this feeling of being in Boy Scouts because we didn’t really have contact early on. Interviewer: “Okay, and if you were moving through kind of jungle areas or things like that, did you use trails, or did you stay off of them?” Well, I remember we hacked our way through a lot. We had these machetes, and we hacked our way through a lot of stuff. And so I would say we kind of formed our own trails. Interviewer: “Okay, and now did Sergeant Burkey or the other guys kind of show you what to do and how to do it?” Yeah, they broke you in when you were there. It’s like they say the most dangerous time for anybody is when you first get to the country and when you’re about to leave. So, I mean, it’s a �Bort, Frank break. In fact, Lieutenant Campbell was, at a certain point, my platoon leader because I remember I went on my first long trek, and I had this backpack. And we got to a certain point—I think it was like almost where we were supposed to go, and my legs gave out under me. The head said, “Go.” And the legs said, “No.” And he made a comment later. He said, “Man.” He was surprised they didn’t train people better, you know, for being in that kind of thing, and I always remember that. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you came in, did you become a squad leader right away, or did you shadow another one for a while, or…?” I kind of remember quite soon taking over. I mean, that’s my recollection. Interviewer: “Yeah, and did you take over from anyone, or was there just nobody—not another sergeant in your squad with you?” This I don’t remember. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and you’re going in as sort of this newly minted sergeant with no field experience, and the guys that you are leading at this point have all been there longer than you. How did you approach that? (28:16) Well, nobody trusted new guys. Nobody trusted them. I mean, you were trusted after you proved yourself, and so I think they were very wary of new guys. They were very wary because they had the experience, and we didn’t. So, I mean, you learned a lot from your men. I mean, so it’s like you may have been the squad leader, but you learned a lot from guys who were there because they were there before. They had the experience you didn’t have. So it was like you learned along the way. Interviewer: “At what point do you think you started really functioning as the squad leader and being in charge?” Yeah, I—But I think it’s a gradual process, and I don’t think it’s really until you start having your first combat. You have your first contact with the enemy, you know, and so forth that you start getting—I don’t know what you call it. Confidence? Or you just feel more attuned. You feel more attuned to where you’re at. It’s called in country. You feel more in country. Interviewer: “Yeah. So how long did it take to have contact or a firefight of any sort?” My first recollection of that—It may have been March or April. I don’t know. Yeah, yeah. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember anything about what happened?” I remember this one guy. He’d just come out to the field. Brand new guy. And he got killed seems like almost in the first week. And I just remember—It’s like, “Wow. The first—” You know, it’s like, “This is for real.” (30:03) I also remember a lot of guys just playing cards. I remember—Because we had a lot of downtime. So guys like Vazquez would read these Western books. Cowboys and Westerns. And I remember just playing a lot of cards and stuff. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. So it’s not too—not a particularly intense experience yet, but you are getting used to marching through the jungles and cutting trails.” The jungles. And yeah, getting acclimated with the guys, the country. Yeah, so it’s a—Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Now starting in March the battalion has the assignment of establishing the firebase at Ripcord, but the first attempt to establish it—A Company tried it, and it didn’t work. And then B Company on April 1st lands there, but there’s too much fire. They take off. All right, and then a week or so later, it’s your company’s turn. Now were you part of that? Were you one of the guys?” Yes, I was one of the first. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Talk about that day. What happens that day?” What happened was I had been in the—in a field hospital because I had cellulitis in my hand, and it was too tender for the medic out there to heal it. So they had flown me in to this field hospital where I was—They had to get the infection out. So I had met Lieutenant Campbell who was, I think, coming off an R&R or something. So we both flew out to the bottom of Ripcord— on the foothills of Ripcord. We both flew out together because we heard they had action around that area, and we both felt badly that we weren’t there. Because once you meet your men, you want to be with your men. You just want to be there. (32:01) And so we both felt badly that we hadn’t been there, but they hadn’t really gone up Ripcord yet. They were just around it. And I remember—Two instances I remember was—Well, everybody has to take a leak or whatever, and I went to this one area, and they says, “Sergeant Bort, that area you’re walking to is not safe.” So I came back. The other thing I remember—There was a chopper coming in. There was a pretty tall guy with a helmet on, and the chopper came down and didn’t hurt him, but the blade hit the top of his helmet. And I always remembered that. And thank God that, you know, the guy wasn’t hurt. But I remember it hit the top of his helmet. So I don’t know where you want me to go from there. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “Well, basically, what do you do? You join the unit. You’re at the base of the hill. Now what happens?” Yeah. Okay, so what happens is we’re told at a certain time or whatever, we’re going to go up the hill. We don’t know what the hell to expect. We don’t know what—We just don’t know what is going to happen. You know, and so my recollection is we’re spread out and— Interviewer: “How steep was the side of the hill?” Well, it wasn’t like a cliff or nothing. It wasn’t like this, but it was something like—I don’t know how you say— Interviewer: “Well, were you able to walk, or…?” Yeah, we could walk it. We’re able to walk it, but the thing is we had no idea what to expect. And so we’re walking up there. And so then finally we get up to the top, and we see that there’s no enemy up there. And my recollection was somebody got killed because they did something up there, but I don’t know what happened. (34:05) So anyway, I mean, we felt exalted. How could you not? You felt great that you got to the top of this place. It was like, “Wow. Here we are. Here we are on Ripcord, and we did it. We’re here.” It was great. It was a wonderful feeling. Interviewer: “Now at that point do you start digging positions, or putting up wire, or what are you…?” Oh, yeah. Immediately you start putting up wire. You start digging foxholes. All kind of—The perimeter. The fence. And they bring in these—I don’t know what you call them—gunships and everything. But they drop this—See, I’ve forgotten what they were even called. This hot stuff that burns everything around the area. Interviewer: “Well, that’s napalm.” Napalm. But they’d drop it off, and I remember they got too close to where I was. I was with this Radcliff, and so—Because I’m on the side of the hill. I’m not on the top of it. And so I go up and tell Burkey. I said, “These guys—They’re dropping this napalm too close.” So then they call them off. They notified me, and I said, you know, “You’ve got to back off with this napalm.” Because they got too close to us. But that was quite frightening because it was being dropped too close. Interviewer: “Do you remember helicopters bringing in a bulldozer or anything else like that?” �Bort, Frank Yeah, gradually everything was coming in. Bulldozers, artillery, everything. And at one point they brought out—They called the guy Black Jack. I forgot some of the names, but— Interviewer: “Yeah, it’s sort of the—It was like—He was a—” The Lieutenant Colonel. Interviewer: “Yeah. Because he was like a Spade.” Spade. Interviewer: “Black Spade.” Black Spade. My—Black Spade. Yeah. Well, he came in, and for some reason, he asked me to play the part of a gook. (36:12) To go outside the wire. He wanted me to go outside the wire and come in. So I did. So I was pretending like I was the gook, you know. You know, that’s what we called them then. We called them the gook. And so I came out of the wire or however I did it, and they were watching, you know, as I came in. I always remembered that because he wanted me to play that part. Interviewer: “Okay. Now do you remember Captain Vazquez inspecting the works or anything like that? Did you see anything of him while you were…?” Oh, yeah. He—Let’s see. I don’t know if Vazquez was there at that time. Interviewer: “He was not there that day. Not the first day you came in. I think the second day.” Did he? Because you know better than I do. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Interviewer: “But then, once he was there, I guess—One thing that Lieutenant Bob Wallace talks about—Vazquez looking at the—you know, his wire and tearing it all up and making them do it all over again.” Well, Vazquez was very precise. I mean, Vazquez—You’re talking a professional soldier, you know. I mean, he would be by the book. So yeah, Vazquez—Yeah. Interviewer: “Because Vazquez also talks about designing your defensive positions and things like that. The holes you were in.” �Bort, Frank I didn’t hear you. That Vazquez talks about? What’d you say? Interviewer: “Yeah. Vazquez. He talked about designing the defensive positions and the shape of the holes you would be in and all that kind of stuff like where you’d sleep and where you’d fire from.” So you’re saying Vazquez did that? Interviewer: “Yeah.” It wouldn’t surprise me because he was a master. He was the master. It’s funny. When we were with Vazquez, we never feared anything. Our attitude was, “He’s smarter than the enemy.” And so when we were with Vazquez, there really wasn’t that much fear. Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you ever with Vazquez when there was much actual fighting?” (38:01) Well, yeah. The first action we had, I believe, we were with Vazquez. We were hit on one side of the mountain or something, and I was on the other side. I remember blowing a Claymore on the opposite side and then going up with my squad or whatever to join the first squad where they were being hit. And I remember some guys had gotten injured and so forth. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and so, I mean, did you see anything of Vazquez at that point, or…?” The only thing I can say about that is he kept everything in good order. That’s the only thing I can remember. He kept everything in order so it wouldn’t go into chaos. That’s the main thing I remember him. Interviewer: “And the Vietnamese sometimes had a way of avoiding the companies that were well-managed.” Precisely. I always had the thought that the Vietnamese knew who had their shit together, and Vazquez always did. He had his shit together. Interviewer: “So you’re on Ripcord, and you’re there helping set it up. Do you have a sense of how long you stayed on Ripcord before you rotated off?” Well, they were sending these squads, platoons, whatever out into the field, so I don’t recall ever being on Ripcord that long. We would be there, and then they would send us on these patrols. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “Yeah. Right. Because they had to rotate which companies were there, and sometimes they split platoons out of the companies.” Correct. Right, right, right. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So kind of in April, May, June—So before the siege, before Hill 902, you’re patrolling a lot in the jungle. Are you finding anything?” (40:11) Well, what we found—Yeah. What we found was a North Vietnamese treasurer. A guy who had all the money who was going to pay the troops. And we found him, and I know they shot him. We just kept on thinking, you know, “His guys are not going to be that happy. They’re not going to get paid.” But I also remember being out in the jungles in the mountains, and I remember them calling in fire from the New Jersey. I remember that happening, and I was like amazed. I said, “Wow. The battleship. And you’re calling New Jersey.” It’s like, “Wow.” You know. Interviewer: “Yeah. Were there signs of enemy activity? I mean, you ran across the paymaster.” Ran across the paymaster. I think there were sightings. There may have been sightings here and there, but I don’t remember anything that close at that point. But I remember at one point we came up upon a North Vietnamese—Something happened, and it may have been an officer. And he was in a bush and you know. And so yeah. So anyway he didn’t last long. I’ll put it that way. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now I know a couple of things happened, I think, in June, but one of them is that Vazquez rotates to the rear. Do you remember when he left, or…?” That’s what’s most confusing to me. When he left. Because then we had other people come in charge, and that was—I don’t know when that was. Interviewer: “Yeah. Now there was also a stand down in June, and most of the battalion went back to Camp Evans for a couple days.” Yes. Interviewer: “All right, and that changeover might have happened then.” It could have happened then. Yeah. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “Okay. Now do you remember anything about the fellow who replaced Vazquez?” (42:06) Well, we had a bunch of people replacing—I think—I don’t know. Lamb? Somebody Lamb, or—I’ll be honest. I get confused. Interviewer: “Well, okay. The commander who replaced him was a fellow named Hewitt.” Hewitt. Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: “Captain Hewitt. And he was with you not too long in the end.” Because he came from down south. Interviewer: “Yes.” Yeah, and what I remember about him is we couldn’t believe this. They would bring—See, they were fighting a different war down south than up north, and we couldn’t figure out— “Why are they sending this guy up here? Because we’re fighting a different war up here.” And he just seemed to be misplaced. It just seemed to be misplaced. I was just saying. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did the company still pretty much function the way it had under Vazquez?” Well, what happened was I didn’t care for the discipline when Hewitt came. I didn’t care for the discipline because one of the things I loved about being in the jungle is a lot of freedom. Nobody really harped on you because you’re out there. You’re fighting. And, you know, it’s not like being in the back. And you always had a lot—And so you always had a lot of freedom. But when Hewitt came, he wanted—I got to be pretty well-known for this. But when Hewitt came, he had this thing where he wanted everybody to shave off their mustaches. And I said, “Now wait a minute,” to myself. “Here I am willing to give up my life for my country, but—” I don’t know. Maybe everybody has a certain—I said, “I ain’t shaving off my mustache.” So anyway the colonel, Harrison, came out one day, and he’s talking to Hewitt. So I walk up to the colonel. He’s talking to Hewitt. (44:05) And I said, “Colonel, what’s the—” I said, “What’s the procedure with mustaches?” And Harrison said, “As long as they’re neat and clean, you know— ” So I get to keep my mustache, and I felt sorry for everybody who had to shave them off. And all the men said, “Bort.” Even Campbell got on me later. He said, “What the hell, Bort?” You know, you know. But I guess I had these boundaries. It’s like I’m willing to go so far and then forget it, you know. “If you want to send me to stockade, do it. I’m already out here.” But I felt �Bort, Frank so proud, and everybody kind of like—“Who is this guy?” You know. “He walks up, and he—” But I always felt like, “Wow.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Well, you’re talking about discipline now. Now Vazquez was certainly disciplined.” But he didn’t care about mustaches and shit. I mean, Vazquez cared about keeping—I don’t want to get down on Hewitt, but like I said, everybody felt—Vazquez knew that area. Hewitt—It’s not fair to Hewitt because he came from down south. He came up north, and he’s fighting. And the guy’s out of place, so it’s nothing against him. He was in a different warzone. It was a different thing. Interviewer: “Well, yeah, yeah. Basically I’m just trying to sort of clarify a little bit because, you know, Vazquez, you know—He had his rules and his way of doing things, but they were all geared toward keeping you alive.” Keep you alive and keep you safe. And in many ways you felt loved by Vazquez. I mean, you just felt this was a fatherly figure. We used to call him “old man”. I mean, one time we’re going up this mountain. You know, we’re going way up there, and it’s surrounded in clouds. I walk up to him, and I said, “Sir, is it okay if I go and play in the snow?” I mean, I was just—And you know, I said, “Is it okay if I go play in the snow?” He knew me, and he just—Everybody laughed at me because even like Liebecke says to me—He said, “Bort.” He said, “You’re the most— You’re like the most unusual soldier there ever was.” (46:14) But, you know, just these comical things. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Now whose platoon—Now you were in Burkey’s platoon still?” Well, I was in—I remember being in Burkey’s. Then it was Campbell. Took over for a while. And then the guy from A Company took over. He was a West Point grad from Alaska. Interviewer: “Well, that was—Well, Hawkins—” Hawkins went for a while. Interviewer: “Okay, but that—” That was before Ripcord. Interviewer: “Yeah, but he was actually—Yeah, I mean, he was a lieutenant.” �Bort, Frank Yeah. Lieutenant. Okay. Interviewer: “Yeah. But anyway—But you’ve got—But I guess—And so, well, we’re now kind of getting now—So there’s a stand down in June. You go back out on the field. You’ve got Captain Hewitt now as your commander, and now we get to the first of July. Now the first of July is when the North Vietnamese start hitting Ripcord with mortars, and your company—Now were you—There were two platoons of your company that went on Hill 902, and Burkey’s platoon was not there.” No, no. What happened is we would have—My recollection is we would have these rotations, and it was Burkey’s platoon’s turn to rotate to go back on Ripcord. And I happened to be with Burkey, so we went back to Ripcord. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and then on that night you have a situation where the company—those other two platoons—they stay on Hill 902 for a second night.” A tragic second night. Interviewer: “And violating, you know—” Violating all of Vazquez’s rules. Interviewer: “Yeah, and they were doing it under orders.” Oh, I know, but, I mean, I just knew Vazquez would never do such a thing. Interviewer: “Right. Yeah, and so now they get overrun. Now from where you were did you know that was happening?” (48:00) Yes. We could see it happening. We were sorry we weren’t there because here your company— They’re out there, and you’re on this firebase. You can see all this shit going on, and it tears your heart apart because you want to be with your men. You want to be out there. And yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Now how do you reunite with them?” Well, they—No. Now what happens is as soon as daybreak comes, they chopper us out to the hill, and they give us bags to look for body parts. So I’m walking around with this big plastic bag looking for body parts. I didn’t find any, but that’s what—I mean, you know. That’s what I was doing. And for the first time in my life I see men—They talk about the thousand-yard stare. I’ve never seen that before, but guys who went through 902—They were, for one day, totally—They �Bort, Frank were just changed men. I look in their eyes, and you could see this—I’d never seen it before. This thousand-yard stare. And I was like, “Wow. What the hell happened here?” I mean, you’re just like, “What was this all about?” Interviewer: “Yeah, and did anybody tell you anything about what happened?” Well, yeah, eventually people would say what happened. They would give you their, you know—“We were overrun.” Because the captain, Hewitt, got killed that night. I heard different stories. One his twelve gauge shotgun got jammed. He was in the hammock or something, and it got jammed. Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah. So you got bits and pieces from the different people who survived it.” Different people who were there. Interviewer: “Yeah, and hadn’t been wounded and taken off because those two platoons were a lot smaller than they had been. And so now you’ve got a situation where your company is pretty badly under strength, and your platoon is a lot of it.” Right. Okay. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you get a new commander coming in. You’ve got Captain Wilcox coming in.” Okay. Interviewer: “All right. Do you remember him joining the unit?” I remember him joining the unit because we hit it off great immediately. We just hit it off. We just hit it off immediately. (50:01) And so the next major objective I remember if I’m not going too fast is we were told by Spade to go up to this Hill 1000. Interviewer: “I think it was an event the day before when some of the men went to recover. A mechanical ambush. And your medic got killed.” Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was with Campbell, and this, I think, is when—Can’t remember his name. Schlecker or Schlacker or whatever. But one of the guys—I was going to take the guy back. He was supposed to go home on a—He was supposed to go on a seven-day leave, so I told Campbell. I said, “I’ll go on the squad with them to go out to check all the mechanical �Bort, Frank ambushes.” And Lieutenant Campbell says, “No, you stay right where you are.” And then the one gentleman, Reissinger, went out and got killed, and I was going to take the guy’s place. So you think of what—And I remember guys being called back and screaming out of pain. And yeah, I remember all that. Interviewer: “Yeah. And so you lost your medic, and then you got a new one come in who was a conscientious objector.” Okay. Interviewer: “And you might not even gotten to know him, but—because he just joined you, and he was not armed. But then that next day, that’s—Now you get the order from the battalion commander to go and attack Hill 1000. All right. And so take me through that day.” Yeah. Through that day. That was probably the most momentous day of my being there. And I always carried a bible around with me. And I remember talking to Hupp, one of the guys in my squad. And I said, “Hupp, some of us are not going to make it back from this hill.” I just had to—“Some of us are not going to make it back.” He was one of those who didn’t make it back. (52:03) Yeah. What happened was—I’m a little confused. But I don’t know if we had a platoon. But we had what I think was like twenty-six guys or something. Interviewer: “That was your company. You had thirty men.” Thirty men. See? Oh my god. See, this is my recollection. Interviewer: “Okay. So basically—I mean, my understanding was you were told—Basically you were attacking a hill that had sort of two crests on it, and D Company was supposed to go up one side.” Yeah, that was the day before. Interviewer: “Well, they had tried it, but they were supposed to go up again that day, same as you. But you had to go through the jungle, around the hill, and up the other end.” Yeah. Interviewer: “So first you have a hike through the jungle, and then you go up the side of the hill. Okay. Now do you remember going up to the side of the hill?” �Bort, Frank Yeah. Yeah, I do. I remember. Yeah, quite vividly. Yeah, so anyway we’re going up the hill, and from my recollection, according to Sergeant Burkey, I was the first one up the hill. That’s what he told me. And so anyway when I get up on top Hill 1000, there’s all of a sudden all this firing going on, and so I get on the ground. And so then other guys—You know, Sergeant Burkey and some come behind me, and so then they actually knew more than I did about where the firing and stuff was going on. So we worked our way up to this ridge because there were trees there, and you could hide. Yeah, hide behind the trees. So I got behind this one tree. Burkey was on the other side of the hill. Whatever. And so Campbell was behind me and the captain… Interviewer: “Wilcox.” (54:06) Wilcox was there, but Wilcox was pretty new in company, so Campbell took pretty much the command at that—From my understanding. From my take. At that point. Interviewer: “Basically Campbell and Wilcox say that Campbell’s—Wilcox wanted to go forward. Now he had experience from being a platoon leader already, but Campbell said, ‘No. You’re the company commander. You can’t get killed, so I’ll go.’ So, in a way—So Campbell was kind of taking charge there, but he was then kind of leading the forward move.” Yeah. So I remember—I remember getting behind this tree because I remember being one of the first ones that actually got to that ridge. And I saw them firing from this bunker. And so at one point Campbell says—He said, “Bort. Sergeant Bort.” He said, “Get your head down.” So he probably saved my life at that point. So anyway I got my head down behind the tree and, you know, was shooting at stuff. And then he said, “Take your helmet off, and hold your helmet in the air.” So I took a stick and held my helmet in the air, and they’re shooting it with a machine gun at my helmet. And so then—Anyway, at a certain point he, I think—Campbell, to the best of my knowledge, said, you know, “Get somebody in your squad or somebody, you know, with the grenades. Who can shoot grenades over there.” And so I told Hupp. I said, “Hupp.” Because I was kind of passing down orders I was getting. I said, you know, “You have the grenade launcher and, you know, if you could start shooting grenades over there.” And that’s when to my utter, complete, total surprise, he got up on his knees. It’s like you’re watching this stuff, and you don’t believe it’s happening. (56:01) It’s like you’re—It’s like it’s—You—I mean, you just— And so when he got up on his knees, he got shot in the head. Interviewer: “How far in front of you was he?” Five feet or even that. He was quite close, and it wasn’t that far from me because I was behind this tree at that point. And so he got up on his knees, and it’s like you’re not believing this. You’re looking at it. You’re not believing it. And you know. And so he got shot in the head. So I �Bort, Frank called the medic. I called for the medic, and I didn’t know this guy was—I didn’t know anything about this medic being conscious. I didn’t know anything about this guy. So it’s almost like that movie about orange they talk about it. What was that? Orange... Interviewer: “A Clockwork Orange?” Not Clockwork, but one of these things. The fantasy thing about Vietnam. Whatever it was. I forget which one it was. Marlon Brando or who was in it. But it’s like unreal. Interviewer: “Oh. Apocalypse Now.” Apocalypse Now. It’s the only thing I can relate it to is being like Apocalypse Now. This—I call the medic as I see Hupp’s been hit, and so here I’m watching this like surreal thing going on. This medic walking up. It’s like, “What the hell’s going on here?” He’s just standing, walking, going up. You know, because he should be down on the ground. He should be protecting himself, and I didn’t know the guy was kind of—I didn’t know anything about the guy. All I had to do was call the medic, and so then he gets hit and killed. And so later on I’m talking to some of the guys, and I said, “You know, when Hupp got hit, was he killed immediately?” They said, “No, he was still alive. He didn’t last that much longer.” Because I was wondering. I didn’t— They said, “No. After he got hit, he didn’t die immediately, but—” So I was just wondering, you know, about that, but I remember—So, anyway, that happened. And then I remember going to the other side of the hill to see Burkey, and then we talked. I remember talking to Burkey, and then all of a sudden we were commanded to get off the hill. (58:17) We were told enemy troops were approaching from this side of the hill, and you’ve got to get down. Interviewer: “Okay. Did you have the two bodies with you?” We did. Had the bodies with us. And so I carried Hupp. I put Hupp on my back, and I’d never had that experience before. That this was a man going through rigor mortis. I could feel him go into rigor mortis as I’m carrying him, and I was running out of water. I was running out of water. So here I am carrying my best friend because Hupp was my best friend. And so here I am carrying my best friend on my back who’s dead. I’m running out of water at the top of a hill. So anyway I asked one of them—I remember I asked somebody if they had any water, and they did in their canteen. So they gave me some water, and—Because I didn’t carry him all the way down. Then we passed, you know, the body on to somebody, and I remember when I got down to the bottom of the hill—I’d never had an experience like this before, but it’s one those—I don’t know what they call—kind of moments. But it was a moment when I really didn’t care if I was living or dead anymore. It’s like I had this feeling like I didn’t care if I was living or dead, and I remember the thought was, “When you no longer fear death, you don’t fear anything.” I remember having the sense I didn’t fear anything because if you don’t fear death, you don’t fear �Bort, Frank anything. But it was one of those—I don’t know what kind of moment you’d even call it. It was just—You know, but I—Because I was so exhausted, and it was just—Just through the whole experience it was—Yeah, just— (1:00:10) Interviewer: “Surreal, I suppose.” Surreal. It was like you’re—I don’t know how you describe it. It was some kind of a—Yeah. Interviewer: “Now do you recall seeing anything else going on around you at that point?” No, no. My remembrance is that I don’t think I ever remember being so exhausted ever in my life. I mean, I just don’t remember ever being that exhausted as I was. And, I mean—Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah. Now when you got back, did you remember seeing any of the guys from Delta Company there, or was just your own guys?” I think there were other guys. I think there was a bunch of guys there, but my main recollection is Wilcox coming to talk to me because he had told Black Spade, the lieutenant colonel, that I was—that I had actually seen the enemy. And so anyway I ended up with Black Spade and Wilcox. And I told Black Spade, “Yeah. Yeah, you know, I saw them in—whatever—the bunker and shooting and, you know, the whole thing.” And so anyway I—So my recollection is when I was there with them, he asked Wilcox to take his guys up again. (1:02:09) Which absolutely made absolutely no sense to me because I’d never been so exhausted in my life. It just—It didn’t come to me. I couldn’t—I mean, I just—I didn’t—I couldn’t put that together in my mind. Going up again. And I remember Wilcox saying, “Sir, if you want to, you can send me up. I’ll go alone.” I never met such a—There ain’t no way I would have said that. I mean, you talk about a hero. I wasn’t going to go up that hill again alone. And so—But Wilcox said, “No.” He said, “No, I’m not going to ask my men to go up there again.” You know. But he said, you know—He said, “I’ll go up there again alone if you want.” And I said, “Well, what the hell kind of guy is this who’ll go up there alone?” Interviewer: “And at this point did Wilcox seem fairly calm or rational, or was he angry, or…?” Oh, yeah. I thought he was rational. Yeah, he was rational. I didn’t see him as being kooky. I didn’t see him as being any—He was just—I think he knew what the hell we’d been through. Interviewer: “And when Colonel Lucas, Black Spade—When he talked to you, was he—He was only asking about what you saw. He’s not asking about what the condition of the men are, or…?” �Bort, Frank I don’t remember him asking—I don’t recall him asking about the condition of the guys. I just confirmed that yes, I saw the enemy and what I may have told him. But I don’t recall him asking about, you know. But I recall Wilcox saying, “I’ll go up alone.” And I said,“Who the hell is this guy?” Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did Black Spade do at that point?” Well, at that—Okay. When that happened, I—Pretty much after I said, “Yes, I saw the enemy,” and I heard Wilcox saying all this, I think I was kind of dismissed, or I went back. (1:04:16) So I don’t know. So I didn’t learn until later that they’d had to go, you know. Yeah. Interviewer: “But basically they have a discussion of sorts, and Wilcox is removed from command.” He’s removed. Right., right. He’s removed. Here’s a West Point graduate who is taken out of the field, but he was never stripped of his rank, which is very rare, I heard. It was very rare. So he went back to the back. Interviewer: “Yeah, he was sent to the rear.” Sent to the rear, which would normally be quite a disgrace because when you’re out there, here this guy’s a hero. Greatest hero. You know. And I’m thinking Black Spade’s out of his mind. This is just my thing. I said, “How the hell are we going to go back?” And I had never been so tired in my life. Exhausted. That we’re going to go back up. “What the heck is this?” Interviewer: “All right. So now your commander’s gone. And what happens to the company at that point?” Then I remember, I think, going back to Campbell or something. Interviewer: “Well, Campbell would’ve taken over because he would’ve been the only officer left until they bring in the new commander.” Yeah. So that’s why I remember him. And then I remember something about Alpha Company coming under some kind of fire somewhere, and they had a lot of resistance. And so they sent us to relieve Alpha Company. That was my recollection. Interviewer: “Okay. Well, there were—Yeah. I mean, so you’re basically—I think the sequence, I mean—So Alpha Company gets into really big trouble at the very end. Like �Bort, Frank 22nd, 23rd of July right at the time of the evacuation of the firebase. And Delta Company 1506 got in trouble a day before that, and you guys went out to help them get out.” (1:06:06) Okay. Delta. I wasn’t sure. Okay. Interviewer: “Yeah. But there were a couple of those things going on. So you’re pulled out on the field. Because I guess in Wilcox’s account of things, I mean, maybe he wasn’t relieved absolutely immediately because he talked about bringing in new guys and having new guys and old guys mix together. And then at a certain point he’s removed from command not too long afterward. But regardless—But they did have to kind of rebuild the company because you’d gotten so small, and so that would have taken—Okay. So—And at this point a lot of that—After that incident at Hill 1000, are things kind of a blur for you for a while?” Well, I remember being on the field, and I remember being choppered out to relieve this Delta Company—I guess Delta—and all the shit they’ve been through. And then I remember we had to get out of there in a hell of a hurry. Something was going on. We’re being surrounded or something. Yeah, and, you know—And sent these choppers, and I remember being one of the last guys on the chopper. And I used to think, “Man. I’m one of the last guys getting out of this chopper. I better make sure I—” You know. I mean, I was relieved when I got on the chopper because I didn’t want to be left behind. But my recollection is one of the last guys getting out of the chopper. Getting out of there. Interviewer: “Right. Yeah. Because the NVA had been closing in on this other company, and you had bought them some time. But now you had to get out.” Right. Interviewer: “Yeah, and it was getting—According to Liebeck, it was getting dark and, you know, getting to the end of the day, and so you had to get out. Yeah. Okay, and now do you go back, and do you have a stand down at Evans, or…?” What date was this? Interviewer: “This would have been about July 22nd, 23rd. About the time of the evacuation of the base.” Okay. Yeah. (1:08:03) Yeah, my recollection—Okay, we would go back to Evans and have a stand down at that point. That would be my recollection. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and now do you go back out in the field then after that?” I remember leaving country. It was around the middle of August. I remember Sergeant Burkey being in the hospital or something. For something or other. Interviewer: “Do you remember going to any other firebases after going to Evans, or do you think you went from Evans and just left?” I just recall Evans. That’s all I recall at this point. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. But you’re getting to the end of your tour at that point.” Right. Interviewer: “I guess, because earlier you mentioned—Okay, so you arrived in Vietnam in October of ‘69, and you went away because you were—had the medical stuff, but that still counts as part of your overseas.” Correct. Right. Well, I got out for early school. It was—Yeah, I got out early because I was applying for graduate school, so they called it an early out. So I got—Yeah, so that’s what happened there. Interviewer: “All right. So how do they get you out of Vietnam? Once you get your orders to leave, what happens?” So—Okay. Then it’s what you call the Big Bird comes in wherever that was. The major airport, I guess. I don’t know. Interviewer: “Well, would you have gone to Cam Ranh Bay or Tan Son Nhut or someplace like that?” I would say Cam Ranh Bay. I don’t remember going back to— Interviewer: “Okay. A lot of people left through there, so it’s possible.” That’s what I would imagine. That’s what happened. Was Cam Ranh Bay. Cam Ranh Bay. Yeah, because I remember being in Cam Ranh Bay. And so that’s where—And I remember being on like either the next to last or last guy on the plane. (1:10:07) And I don’t know what was going on on the plane, but somebody said, “If you don’t calm down, we’re not taking off.” And I’m �Bort, Frank like, “What the hell is this?” There on the plane. I don’t know what’s going on. So anyway I remember I was in the front row of the plane. And yeah, it’s funny. Interviewer: “Okay, and then where do you land in the States?” Fort Lewis, Washington. I land in Fort Lewis, Washington, and that’s where you’re supposed to have all your discharge. Well, they had lost my—Because the only thing I could figure out— When I went to Japan, they had lost my papers. I don’t know what happened. So then I had to be discharged on my say-so. And so that’s when they did the DD214 on my—And the captain who was doing all this—That’s what I was signed down. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you left from there, did you wear your uniform to go home, or did you change clothes?” I remember wearing my uniform. Interviewer: “Okay. As you’re going through airports, did you ever see any protesters or things like that?” Yeah, but—Not that—But, you know, what I remember before those flights in—Everybody was looking forward to getting this big steak. Because when you get back there, they had this steak thing, and we’re talking about getting this steak. So I remember that. Then I remember flying out on Continental, and I was so impressed with Continental Airlines. I thought, “Man, this is something else.” I remember, I think, you know, flying through Colorado or something, and then from there to Cleveland. And my mom and brother and two sisters met me in Cleveland. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Now to go back to Vietnam a little bit—A few other things. There are stereotypes about Vietnam that often don’t always apply all that well to people who were out on the field. One of them is that there was a lot of drug use and so forth. Did you notice any of that?” No, no. What I found—And they said the 101st was a very professional—Of course, Vazquez was professional professional, you know. (1:12:07) His thing was keeping guys alive and, you know, professional. I don’t recall any—I don’t recall anything—Any time we were out on the field—Because everybody was responsible for everybody else’s back. And I don’t think anyone would put up with that because everybody was responsible for everybody else. So anytime they was on the field, I—No, I don’t recall anything. Interviewer: “Okay. If you’re on base camp—” �Bort, Frank On base then there’s more leniency. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and then also a question just about racial tensions at that point. Did you observe any either in the field or back in the rear?” There—Yeah, there was some out in the field, but not by all the races. There were—Some of the African Americans were absolutely fabulous. They were just terrific soldiers, and there were others that just didn’t seem to be too happy to be there, you know. And I got to thinking some of them really didn’t care to be under me. I’ll be honest. I thought they felt like I didn’t know what I was doing or something. It might be they didn’t feel very—I don’t know. So I didn’t feel particularly admired or liked by some of them. Interviewer: “Okay. Then did you have much contact with any Vietnamese people whether civilian or military?” Well, I remember some Vietnamese because what happened was I didn’t smoke at that time. So since I didn’t smoke, we used to get all these packages in, and I remember trading cigarettes for chicken and different things. But I can’t recall any certain time. But I just remember feeling great that I didn’t smoke because I could trade my cigarettes for—You know, with Vietnamese for stuff. Interviewer: “So how would you encounter Vietnamese people?” This is a good question. I don’t even know how. Interviewer: “Well, some worked on the bases. So if you were back at Evans or something—” (1:14:09) Maybe. Maybe there or—Could have been. They could have been. Interviewer: “Because there weren’t a lot of civilians in the areas where you operated.” No, there weren’t. I’ll tell you one thing, though. My mom was very popular in Vietnam because she would get the ladies from the community to bake cookies. To do all kind of stuff. And so I would have all my care packages sent out to the field, but I heard a lot of people didn’t. They kept them at the base. But I would get my care packages and share them with people. Like sausage, cookies, all kind of stuff, you know. And that’s what I recall. And, you know, getting pop out there, cans of pop. Different things, you know. �Bort, Frank Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So now once you are back in the States and you’re discharged, now what do you do?” Okay, okay. I went back to the farm where I grew up because that’s where I—That was the home I had at that time. And my mom was away, but my dad died at forty-nine. And so I stayed with— I stayed actually in the farmhouse. It was a ranch home, but it was on my grandfather’s farm. And that’s where I stayed. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you go back to school, or…?” No, what happened was I—What happened—I was—Like I said, I got an early out in order to go to college, so I went to John Carroll. I was going to get a master’s in social work, and what happened when I went to apply, they said, “Well, you stammer, and because you stammer, we can’t take you into this program.” So here my plans to go to grad school fell apart. So I said, “Well, this is—Okay, they’re not going to accept me because I stammer.” You know. So then I went back home. (1:16:10) And to my recollection, I tried to find a job at that point. Yeah, and I remember I went to this employment agency, and I remember my mom went with me at that point and—I don’t know. But it’s like the guy there was not very happy with Vietnam vets. And it probably upset my mom more than me. I don’t know. But it just—That, I think, was the one instance—The major instance I recall was—I don’t know what I was doing. Applying for—I don’t know what I was doing. Looking for a job or—I don’t know—whatever I was doing. See, what happened was I had applied for a job right before I went to Vietnam as an appointment counselor or something, but I got drafted the same day I was supposed to start the job. Therefore, they didn’t save the job for me. The same day. So then I went back, and so there was no job for me. So it took me a little while until I found a job in Cleveland as a caseworker with Public Aid. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and is that the kind of career area you stayed in, or…?” Yeah. So I stayed in my—basic social work my whole life. I’ve been in that. Interviewer: “Yeah. Did you eventually get a master’s degree from somebody else?” No, no, no. What happened, though, even before the Cleveland—even before all this happened, I was on the farm, and I started to become suicidal. I felt everything was closing in on me. I felt everything was closing in on me. I was beginning to feel—I was feeling suicidal and—Because I know when I first got back, I couldn’t sleep on the bed. I had to sleep on the floor, and any loud noise—Boom. You know. (1:18:06) And so anyway, my mom knew this pharmaceutical salesman who knew a psychiatrist. So I went to see the psychiatrist, and I think I must have scared the heck out of this guy. He put me on four major medications for a year. Mellaril, �Bort, Frank Sinequan, and whatever. So for a year I was on these major medications, you know. And so— But that eventually brought me down. The medications eventually brought me down. Because I remember going to see the psychiatrist at the—in Cleveland. But he said no, you know. That was fine. And so—At the VA. I was at the VA, but they just kind of dismissed me, so— Interviewer: “Well, PTSD hadn’t really been identified yet.” I guess it hadn’t. Yeah. Interviewer: “And the VA wasn’t treating it. And in effect, with some of the stuff you had—like the reflex stuff—that can be controlled to some extent by the kinds of—maybe tranquilizer type things that you were being given. So that might have accidentally wound up being something useful for you at that point.” I hear you. Yeah. Interviewer: “But yeah. At least, that’s what I—I mean, I’m just kind of guessing because—Putting that together.” But I know when they put me on all this major medication for a year, you know, I came down. Interviewer: “All right. And then do you still—Do you have, you know, longer-lasting after-effects?” Yeah. Well, I did. I mean, all the major stuff kind of—Well, I’ve been in—I was in therapy for many years, but not everything was Vietnam. I had, you know, just growing up issues and things to do with life, and I’ve always been kind of a sensitive soul. It’s like Liebeck says. I’d be the last one you would think would be in the army. I had actually signed up for the Peace Corps to go to Kenya, but I was turned down for that. And I used to think, “Boy, here I’m going to ‘Nam, but they wouldn’t accept me into the Peace Corps.” You know. And so yeah, I mean, even after—Even two or three years—I don’t know. Maybe not—Maybe eight or nine years ago— Because I had been in Florida about ten years—I was going—Well, I’m Catholic. I was going to Mass at the VA, and the priest there—He said, “You have PTSD.” (1:20:22) I wasn’t even aware. And so they had these two Catholic ladies who were there. They had this psychiatric department. It was at the VA. And so I went through PTSD training. I saw a psychologist. I went through all this stuff there. And yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Now if you kind of look back at your time in the military service, do you think you took anything positive out of it?” �Bort, Frank Anything what? Interviewer: “Anything positive out of your time in the service.” I think it was probably one of the times when I was most alive in my life because they say the closer you are to death, the more you are alive. And I felt so unbelievably alive. And the group of guys, you know. And you’re just—I don’t know. You’re out in the jungle, you know. Vietnam was a beautiful country. I mean, god. They used to be called the Pearl of the Orient. And, you know, when the mountains—All these rushing streams and, I mean, you’re in—You’re in, you know, all this beauty. You know. “What the heck is this fighting all about?” But no, I mean, it— How can I say it? It was a very positive experience for me. Extremely positive. Well, they say that which does not kill you will make you stronger. And so no. All kinds of—I mean, I think in many ways for me it was positive. You know, very positive. Extreme—Like I say, I don’t know that I ever—when I felt more alive. Interviewer: “All right. But probably not something you want to do again.” (1:22:04) No, but I’ll tell you one thing. And I think one of the major problems they had in Vietnam was— It’s like you’re in the jungle, then maybe within a week, you’re back in the world. And there was no halfway point, and it’s too much of a change for people who have been fighting. And I know if I had been in charge, I would have sent them to Panama and the jungle and play cowboys and Indians for six weeks just to come down. I think that would have helped a lot because there was no decompression, you know. And I don’t know why they never did something like that, but that’s one of the faults I see. Is not sending us guys somewhere we could come down. Interviewer: “Yeah, I think the modern military tries to find ways to deal with that. At least, they’re aware of it. But in those days they really hadn’t figured it out.” Yeah. It’s just like wow. Interviewer: “Yeah. Well, you’ve got a pretty good story there.” I didn’t know how good it was. I had no idea. I just— Interviewer: “Yeah, you did a good job with it. I just want to thank you for taking the time to share it.” Oh, thank you for asking me. �Bort, Frank � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BortF2284V Title A name given to the resource Bort, Frank (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-03 Description An account of the resource Frank Bort was born in Youngstown, Ohio in 1945 and grew up on his grandfather's farm around Canfield, Ohio. Shortly after graduating from John Carroll University, Bort received a draft notice and attended Basic Training in September 1968 at Fort Knox, Kentucky, advanced infantry at Fort Polk, Louisiana, and then NCO-School at Fort Benning, Georgia. In October 1969, Bort was deployed to Camp Evans in Huế Phu Bai, Vietnam where he served in the Charlie Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne. He recieved medical treatment on a hospital ship due to worries over hearing damage. Bort's unit participated in the establishment of Firebase Ripcord as well as the attacks on Hill 902 and Hill 1000 before recieving an early-out of the Army to attend graduate school. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bort, Frank Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ead49d2cc39e68ac1533d3dbbc1a0ca7.mp4 87101269ce1e68edb45f3b6894c3974d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e888c73385c3cb83b5a6b2f2c0e728b.pdf 86abbda27b8c6a8e7a7c5db13418f19f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Frank Anthony Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are continuing our conversation with Frank Anthony of Twin Lake, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, now Frank, we had talked already in our first round about how you wound up in the military and how you ultimately, after a lot of infantry and more specialized training, wound up becoming a helicopter pilot, a warrant officer, and going to Vietnam. Now, when did you arrive in Vietnam? Veteran: May of ’69. Interviewer: Okay. And then did you stay a full year there? Or longer? Veteran: I stayed a full year. At the end of the year they were going to send me back to a training base. I took one look at the orders and went up to the personnel officer at group headquarters and, at that time…Back up. Vietnam was not a declared war. So, unlike World War 2, once you’re there, they can’t just keep you there. It was a hardship tour. And a hardship tour, they can only keep you in there for 1 year. At that time, they were having trouble keeping enough pilots and they were in the Vietnamization program where they were slowing down the war and trying to turn it over to the Vietnamese. So, they had cut back the number of troops they were making back in the states. So, they didn’t have enough pilots for Vietnam. And they had too many of �them in the states. So, if you extended 6 months to stay over in Vietnam, you could get another 30 day leave and a free R and R. And I was going to do the same thing in another 6 months. And then I’d have one year left and they’d be sending me back to the states and oh, I’d have an attitude. So, I went up there and I requested to put in the extension and then the warrant officer came down one day and he says, “You believe in WOPA?” That’s Warrant Officer Protective Association. I said, “Yeah.” “Let me send in your orders. There is something in the wind.” He says, “You’re no lifer.” I says, “Get out of here.” He says, “Well, there’s something I just want to check out.” And he come back and he put the papers on the desk and he says, “This is for your 6month extension.” And he says, “How’d you like to get out of the service early?” (00:02:45) Veteran: I says, “How early?” He says, “Well, do another 6 months.” I says, “You mean after this 6 months?” He says, “No, no.” He says, “Do this 6-months, you get out a year and a half early.” “What do I have to do?” He said, “Just stay here.” “Do I still get my 30-day leave?” “Yep.” “Do I still get my R and R?” “Yeah.” “Can the president read it without his glasses?” You know, I am signing that baby. So, I then—instead of serving 3 years after flight school, I served a year and a half and it was a year and a half straight in Vietnam, which they couldn’t make you do. But I knew the unit and it was pretty good compared to most jobs over there. Wasn’t partaking in potluck. And I was cutting 6 months off staying there and an extra year in the service. Interviewer: Alright. So, you basically finished in Vietnam towards the end of 1970? Veteran: December 23rd. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now kind of go back now. Now, when you officially served with several different units in Vietnam. �Veteran: Which was interesting because a lot of times when they do that, it is just a paperwork shuffle. You may not even change barracks. And in my case, I did but I didn’t leave the artillery hill I was on. I didn’t change the people I was working with. My job didn’t change in any way, description or form. But when I first got there, I was assigned to 3rd of the 6th Artillery, which was an interesting unit because they had guns that we no longer had. They had SP-105s, selfpropelled 105s, which looked like a small tank. (00:04:20) Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: And they used them a lot for what we call hip shoots. They take them down the road and they get to a place and they just pull off the side of the highway, circle the guns, and they’d have an armed personnel carrier with them which would be their forward direction center, FDC. And they’d throw barbed wire out that they were carrying on the tanks. They’d throw barbed wire out around them. And they’d sit there and that’d kind of keep the enemy on…I don’t know, a razor’s edge? You’d have to kind of put a dot in the middle; pin in the map and a string and draw a circle and say, “Now what can they cover they couldn’t cover before? What are they going to be doing? Why are they doing this?” And those units used to pull a lot of hip shoots. Interviewer: Okay. Now as a helicopter pilot, did you work with them in some way? Veteran: Oh…Yeah. Our unit was different. I was talking to a friend of mine and he was artillery too. And his artillery unit—some of his pilots were directly dedicated to, like, the intelligence officer. And that’s all he flew for and that’s all he did and…Our unit, prior to us getting there, had had Bird Dogs, L-19 fixed wings. And when we got there, they’re still allocated the same way. There were 4 helicopters assigned to a group, 2 to each battalion. They were allowed a pilot for each aircraft, a mechanic for each aircraft, and a toolbox. That was it. Group put them all �together and decided they had an aviation company that was to support everybody. And we did everything: from flying the commanders to flying…Well, I wrote my mom and told her I was flying ice cream, mail, chaplains, ash and trash. I did. But we also did convoy cover. If we were there, we did the medevacs. We did emergency resupply. Guns had to be repaired or somebody had to be brought back for whatever reason, we went out and got them. (00:06:30) Veteran: If a unit was under attack and stayed that way long enough or we happened to just be in the area, we’d fly over ahead and sometimes we could see what’s going on and we’d redirect artillery or move troops or whatever had to be done. I mean, we were basically just an airborne ¾ ton truck and used for anything and everything. Interviewer: Okay and what type of helicopter did you normally fly? Veteran: Well when I first got there, believe it or not I was flying an OH-23 which was what you see—similar to what you see on MASH. Interviewer: Yeah, with the big bubble where the pilot is? Veteran: Yep. It has a piston air engine. 23 is different than a 13 though. 13, pilot rides on one side, observer rides on the other. 23, pilot rides in the middle straddling the console. A person can ride on both sides. Later, I flew an OH-58, which is a Bell Ranger, similar to what you see in a number of news media people using. I was checked out and trained to fly a Huey and the OH58s were brand new. We had 13 of the 20 of them that came to Vietnam. And the Bell tech rep lived with us. And it was interesting because self-centering bearings didn’t. Self-lubricating bearings didn’t. All kinds of things that the aircraft was supposed to be capable of doing and so and so forth didn’t happen. So, these things were under close scrutiny. So, from time to time, we’d get a twix radio teletype message that all our fleet was grounded. And pilots being pilots, �we like to fly. I mean, we don’t like combat but we like to fly. So, we’d go over then and fly with the lift units and stuff because well, we were checked out to fly them and…So, then we’d go fly Hueys. Our group did requisition, from up above somewhere, at least one Huey a day. And we normally got at least one lift aircraft a day. (00:08:27) Veteran: Sometimes we got 2 or 3 of them and those were normally Chinooks or cranes because we had some bases that were totally inaccessible by ground and everything had to go in by air. I mean, we not only took in food, we took in water tanks, all their ammunition, anything and everything. Interviewer: Yeah. And artillery ammunition, if you are taking that in, it’s pretty substantial. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: You can’t take that in with a Huey. Veteran: What most people don’t realize is that while artillery is heavy, they quite often go through more their weight in ammo each day than what the gun weighs. So… Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, so that sort of—and basic—and so essentially, that’s the kind of work that you were doing throughout that year and a half. Now, I want to go back. You— one of the pieces of your story that’s interesting, people wouldn’t know much about, is you had Vietnamese civilians working for you on these bases. So, you’re on a base basically at Pleiku, that area? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Alright. And with that first unit, you had—you basically inherited a maid? �Veteran: I came in first day and first day they can’t use you yet. First off, everybody gets climatized so they spend a week or two climatizing you. And the poor infantry are running and doing other things and I can’t fly yet. First off, I haven’t had a check ride. Haven’t had all my equipment issued. I haven’t had my physical. So, there’s a lot of things that have to happen before I could fly. So, they told me, “Just sleep in” and they gave me this room. And basically, the barracks is a pole building on a slab. And the outside siding you can actually inside look out and see the ground outside. You look up through the rafters and you can see this steel roofing. And the room is 8x8 and I got one all by my lonesome and they told me, “When you wake up in the morning, come on down. We’ll get you started. I mean, no sense worrying about getting up early or anything.” So, I am sleeping in and I am a fairly light sleeper anyway. And the door opens and there’s this Vietnamese standing in the doorway. And keep in mind now, my room is like 50-75 yards from the outside perimeter. (00:10:39) Veteran: And I am green as grass; don’t know anything. So, I drew my 45, cocked and locked it and I am aimed right at her. Hollered, “Halt!” And she did. She froze statue style, standing right there. And the two of us are in this Mexican standoff until Doc finally hears her. She starts talking but she’s… (unintelligible sounds) …I have no idea what that said but anyway, Doc looks around the door casing at me and sees me in there and says, “If you shoot her, you’ll have to do your own laundry.” “Oh.” She’d been using the room to, like, put a blanket over a footlocker and iron clothes and stuff like that. And she didn’t know there was somebody in there and I didn’t know she was coming in. She ended up being my maid. That was Mai. And everybody gets a laundry mark. And I have no idea what it means but I was number hocken 10. And they rate everything from 1 to 10. 10 is as bad as you can be and if you’re number 1, that’s super. And I started off being number hocken. She wrote it on the door. I mean not just my �clothes but she wrote it on the door. So, that was my start with her. But it was a—it was a relationship I didn’t forget. I had 2 other maids as I was reassigned. You asked me about it, I was reassigned to 52nd group headquarters and then to 6th of the 14th and both those units were on the hill and both times I got moved to a different barracks. And I ended up with a different maid and I don’t remember much about either one of the other two. Course like I said earlier, you know, we are talking 50 years ago. If you’d asked me earlier, I could probably remember more than that but Mai was the first one. And then there were two captains going home that didn’t pay her. (00:12:32) Veteran: And I cornered them at the O club the night they were due to leave. And I asked if they had paid Mai and they knew they hadn’t. And I asked them to give me the money and we could buy them a box of soap and a can of shoe polish a month. And when I say pay her, she took our laundry out, washed them. During the monsoons, they took out every piece of leather we had, saddle soaped it and polished it so it didn’t grow mold. And if you had a little—one of the rooms had a counter in there with a hot plate and some other stuff. If I left anything, they took it out, cleaned it, brought it back, put it there. The room got swept out. They changed the linen on the bed. I don’t know. But she got $2.50 a month. That was 1000 piastre. That was their money. And we paid them in piastre; they didn’t get paid in U.S., they didn’t get paid in military pay currency. They got paid in piastre. And it was 1000 piastre a month. And we weren’t allowed to pay them more and we weren’t allowed to give them anything else. They were worried about inflating their economy and causing trouble. So, we were limited what we could pay them. They did eat their lunch on the base. And that was provided. But you asked about other personnel…In the mess hall, we had our cooks that were there but nobody pulled KP. Civilians took care of that. The officers were in the front quarter of the mess hall and the back quarter is where they �fixed the meals. The middle section is where all the chairs were where the enlisted personnel and stuff like that ate. (00:14:24) Veteran: We were in the front and there was a small square piece of paper laying at your place. You went to your place, picked up your pencil and checked off what was on the menu that you wanted. They come, picked up the paper, they got the food from the kitchen or went through the line or whatever, I don’t know, and brought the food up to us. And when we were through eating, we just got up and left and everything was cleared and cleaned and that’s the way it was. But officers are a little different too. Our meals aren’t free. After you go through flight school and that, you’re given a certain amount. Well first off, you’re given so much for your uniforms. And that’s a one-time thing. And after that, you’re required to provide your own uniforms. And food? If you go to the mess hall, you could buy it. I am trying to remember what it was at the time. It was something stupid. It was under a buck and a half a day or something. And it was like 35 cents for a meal and they kept track of it. And it was deducted from your pay. So, when you got your pay, it showed how much you paid for meals there. But if you wanted to go to the O club or if you wanted to fix something in your room or buy stuff at the PX, it was up to you because you were—you’re pretty much on your own. But officers again being a different group too, the guys referred to RHIP: Rank Has Its Privilege. And they think it’s cool that you can just cut the corners on a lot of these things. But like, it was the officer—the group commander at 6th of the 14th—when I was first up there, he flew me to where I went right through dinner. And I didn’t make a whole lot of complaints to him. But then later I let him know that military reg says I am to get my meals, because you want to keep blood sugar up. Interviewer: Right. (00:16:15) �Veteran: And that I needed to eat. And he told me to go down to the mess hall. I did. The cook promptly run me out. So, I went up to the…Can’t think of what you call it. I went up to the main office there. And first sergeant top asked me what was wrong. And I told the top. And, “Stay here.” “Hey, I don’t want to get nobody in trouble.” He says, “I’ll take care of it.” Top went down and he come back and he told me, “You go down to the mess hall. He’ll feed you.” I went down to the mess hall and the cook took me back into the back of the kitchen, opened up the great big doors of the refrigerators and says, “What do you want?” I looked at him and I said, “I just want something to eat.” I said, “You got some C rations?” Because they got them by the case and that’s where they’re kept. And I said, “Give me some C rations and some slurps.” He took 2 cans—cases of C rations—put them on the counter. Took a case of slurps and put them on the counter. He says, “Now, what do you want to eat?” And I said, “No, I’ll just take—” “Uh-huh. First sergeant will skin me alive.” He says, “What do you want to eat?” And I says, “What do you got that’s quick and easy?” And you know. I got in good with the cooks and the supply sergeants because having been in the military a bit before flight school, those are two people you really want to know. It will make your life easier. And I’ve got helicopter rides. So, I got adequate trading material, you know. And there’s a number of things we are doing where we can take passengers with us, like we are bringing a VIP, we always call ahead and their jeep comes down to pick them up. We had a tanker truck to fill our aircraft. But if you’re flying a Huey and it burns a gallon of fuel a minute, you can drain your truck fairly fast. So, we’d go over to the Air Force base or we’d go over to the other side where there was an Army aviation base; we’d fill up there, bring our aircraft back and then just top it off. at night, we had a mission: each evening we’d fly around our base and just keep making circles wider and wider out and look for anything changing or different. (00:18:26) �Veteran: And we found a lot of interesting things. But a lot of those times, I’d just take my crew chief with me. Well, OH-23, I still got another seat. “You want to go and bring your camera?” So, we’d do stuff like that. And the guys loved going for rides. So, many a time, I’d go back to my hooch at night and right by the door would be a brown bag and maybe a regular carton of milk. And I’d look in the brown bag and here would be fresh cinnamon rolls because the night baker would leave them for me. So, in a lot of ways, later it turned out to be great. The cook there finally decided he’d start putting meals and put them on top of the baking oven. And I don’t know how many times I come in, he just would take it off, “Oh, you don’t want that. It’s been here too long. What else do you want?” You know. And I am going, “Hey guys, you know I am not trying to make work for you.” But RHIP? I didn’t eat my meals when everybody else did. And I had my share of eating out of cans. And I had my share of missing meals because of a combat situation. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But they think it’s pretty cool that you just get away with that. Interviewer: Alright. But I suppose this also ties back in with the idea that you had those two captains that didn’t feel like paying the maid. Veteran: Oh. They were going to ditch her. And they weren’t going to pay her. Interviewer: So, did you get the money from them? Veteran: I did and I also got the money for the soap and for the shoe polish and brought it back to her. And she thought that was cool. It—I don’t know how long it took but it wasn’t too long: I became number 1. And my—even on the door, my number got changed: I was number 1 now, you know. And she was…Her and I became close. She came in one day and she says to me, she �says, “You no bombula?” And that’s their word for butterfly. They don’t have a word for playboy but a butterfly goes from flower to flower, sucking nectar, and it means the same thing to them. (00:20:28) Veteran: And I go, “No…” And she says, “You no like boys?” I says, “Get out of here.” She says, “You no marry?” I says, “No.” She says, “You need wife.” I said, “Oh…I couldn’t agree more.” She says, “Boys don’t know how to pick good wife.” She says, “You look with eyeballs.” You know, she says, “Good wife got to know how to cook, got to know how to take care of laundry, got to know how to take care of you. Good wife got to come from good family and be trained proper.” She says, “In Vietnam, family pick wife.” She says, “I get you good wife.” Now what do you say? You know, I got to be thinking quick. I says, “Mai,” I said, “If you get me good wife, my family lose face.” “Oh. Yeah. Okay.” You know? So, she backed off. But then it was strange: a couple months later, she knows I am not this butterfly, she knows I am not a problem. She grabs my arm one night and she says, “You come home with me.” And she’s facing away from me now and she’s pulling me. And she says, “I make you happy. I take care of you tonight.” I got no idea what she’s talking about. But it’s totally out of character. Mai is married, she’s got a couple kids. I don’t know what’s going on. And she’s just pulling me out the door. 4-foot bulldozer. And I yank her back. She turns around and she’s just full of tears. I mean, she is just…And I looked at her and she says to me, she says, “You promise me you sleep in bunker tonight? You stay safe?” It got overcast that night and we took over 40 rockets that night. How she knew? I have no clue. (00:22:13) Veteran: I just don’t know. She came in one morning and she says, “You fly the Mang Yang Pass?” I said, “Yeah.” “Oh, fly high beaucoup VC big gun. Very bad.” So, I am thinking mhmm. I am sitting in the old man’s briefing every morning. Haven’t heard anything about it. So, right �after breakfast, I go over to the intelligence bunker. I mean, I could try to talk to the guy at the mess hall but if he’s doing his job, he ain’t going to say anything. He ain’t going to talk to me. And I mean, we got these Vietnamese girls going in and out of our, you know. He ain’t going to say nothing. So, I went over to the bunker and I went down to the intelligence bunker. They don’t know a thing. Two days later, he cornered me at breakfast and he says, “Before you go up for the briefing, stop by. I want to show you something.” A quiet 50—2 quiet 50s—in the pass and a reinforced company. Took them 48 hours to figure it out. She’s telling me. I don’t know. At one time, they thought maybe she was a spy. At one time—well, 2nd week I was there, they had a bit of a disruption in the barbed wire one night and they shot a sapper coming in. Sapper was normally birthday suit or some sort of loin cloth and dragging satchel charges—explosive charges, already set up. And they know where they are going to put them: set the timers and blow them. They attacked one of our other firebases one night and they destroyed over 85% of the guns and the buildings, the structures—the bunkers and stuff. Didn’t last very long. It was very destroy—and none of the guys…They didn’t figure any of them got off the base. We had enough dead bodies, they didn’t figure they left but…The guy they got in the barbed wire, when we got him out of there dead, he was our barber at 3rd of the 6th. Another Vietnamese that was on base. (00:24:15) Veteran: So, you didn’t really know. And they thought well, maybe Mai was playing both sides towards the middle or something. And I carried what they called an SOI: Signal Operating Instruction. It was on a cord; went around my neck. And, like my dog tags, it went with me everywhere I went. And they gave me a phony one. They wanted me to leave it lay around. And I left it on the bed with my dog tags on purpose and went out to go around because I had to go out of my building around outside into the back and closer to the barbed wire was where our �latrine was. And I went out there to take a shower. I don’t know where Mai was because she wasn’t in my room and I didn’t see her. But I don’t think I got 3 feet away from my door, heading down the pathway, and she’s yelling and hollering at me and she’s got that SOI and dog tags in her hand and I am not sure because my Vietnamese is not that good but I don’t think she was calling me good names. And she told me this was very bad and I no do and I take this. And she was serious about it. So…I don’t know. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, the people were often caught between a rock and a hard place in a lot of cases. It certainly seemed like she was making a point of doing things that actually helped you. Now another side of this, you talked about your not being a butterfly. Now, how common was it for men in your situation to take advantage of the women that worked on the base? Veteran: Well, in some cases you didn’t have to. To give you an example, one night I got called. I was the executive officer of the aviation company and I got called and a couple of my enlisted men had got caught downtown. Now, downtown is off limits and everything closes up about dark and they close the gates, put the barbed wire around. You don’t get out with a couple veh— unless you got a couple vehicles, written orders, machine gun, radios, flak jackets. I mean, it’s a jump through a hoop situation. So, I got a couple guys in the jeeps and all that stuff and went down to the MP station. (00:26:21) Veteran: And sure enough, these are a couple of my enlisted men. And they were down at the brothel, going to stay all night. So, I brought them back and took them down to my air section and I told the guard that we—sounds funny—we had a barbed wire enclosure inside the compound because we don’t need people trying to cut across the runway and things. So, and finally, I got my guys separated from everybody else’s, because they’re coming from all these �different battalions and group, and got them one building. And they all lived in the one building. And they pulled guard duty on our air section. So, if we had a scramble, these guys know what things got to be untied, what—we got a big plug, went in the air intakes, got to come out. They know how to get the aircraft ready for us to go. Also, sometimes when the Viet Cong got on the base, they did things like take a hand grenade and they would, if it was like ours, theirs weren’t but they used ours from time to time, they would wrap them with duct tape, pull the pin. Now, it can’t go off because the hammer is being held down. You know the…They would then take the fuel cap off—and our fuel caps are quite big—and they would put the hand grenade inside and put the fuel cap back. What we did was we would scratch the fuel cap across to the—and you got to find the scratch and then lock it down. Well, our guys would check immediately to see if they were left in the positions they were supposed to be. And so, our guys were on the base and they pulled guard duty on our airfield instead of on normal guard towers. And I came in and I told the guard, he was sitting in the air section which is okay: you can sit their part of the time. I told him to get lost, I want to talk to these two enlisted men. And I told them, I says, “It’s not my standards, my belief and stuff. You know, that’s sacred. This is with your wife. It’s—You don’t go other places.” (00:28:27) Veteran: I told them, I says they “were stupid.” And they’re looking at me kind of funny like and I says, “You know, you go down to”—I forget what they called it. They had a place where…It was like a manpower pool and we could go down there and the Vietnamese were somewhat screened and things and you go down and you talk to them. And I says, “You go down there, find a gal you want for a maid. Talk to her. Tell her what you expect. And If you expect to get laid twice a week, tell her, you know, I am going to get laid twice a week. And if I get sick, if I come up with some strange disease…I mean, you’re getting fired. And you lay down the law to �them and they’re quite open about stuff like that.” I mean, the guys tell me about the—and I don’t know—but a lot of the little whorehouses along one of the roads were little tar paper shacks. I mean, little small places. And they might be separated by about this much. And they’d have windows on the side and they’d tell me about the girls talking to each other while the guys are having sex. They’re going what??? I don’t know. I have to take their word for it. But they were quite open about stuff and they say that some of them felt that if they weren’t emotionally involved, there was nothing wrong with it. I don’t know. I never asked Mai. Never questioned her. But I told these guys, I says, “Talk to your maid. Tell her what you expect, what’s going to happen if things mess up or you get sick or…Getting caught downtown? That’s stupid. That’s just flat stupid.” But it was available. I mean, it was like drugs and other things. I mean, enough stuff was available anywhere that doing some of this stuff crazy was just…And, you know, being that…Well, I’m a Mormon. We don’t drink coffee, we don’t drink tea, we don’t drink alcohol, we don’t smoke. So, when I had the O club for a while, I don’t think the gal that worked behind the counter there by the bar there would have given me a drink if I asked for one. I think I could have threatened her and she wouldn’t have given me a drink. (00:30:41) Interviewer: And why wouldn’t she have given you a drink? Veteran: She knows that’s not my beliefs. Interviewer: Ah, okay so she would have been— Veteran: Yeah, something’s wrong. You know, she…We did have an officer that died over there once and it hit me hard. I don’t remember his name. I went to a mobile wall. You know, the Vietnam Wall. I went to one… one day and I looked him up and he’s not hard to find. And I went to his name and the minute I saw the name on the books, I knew it was him. Usually, an �artillery officer, a young artillery officer, spends first half of his tour in the field. And he’s with the unit and he directs artillery form out in the field. And this guy was so good with his bush skills and that that they kept him with the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese. But every time they got in contact up where we were, these guys would draw back and leave him out there alone. And several times—I remember one night going down and listening to the radio at the air section of him keeping contact with people from a mortar crater. And he was totally surrounded and fighting. And we tried twice before that night to get him out and the aircraft come back like swiss cheese and they couldn’t get to him. And I mean, we are using gunships to try and run interference for him. And we couldn’t get him out. This happened on a couple occasions. He’s the same one, did you want me to— Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Relay about Ben Het again? Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. (00:32:22) Veteran: He’s the same one that I was up by Dak To and we had a staging field between Dak To and Ben Het for what we called FOB missions: Flights Over the Border. We also had a more colorful term for it. But anyway, we would stage there for going over and Ben Het was right at the tri border area, where Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam come together. And it was a strategic— military strategic—location. He was down by the staging field and he’s looking at all this stuff stacked up. And he asked, “What’s it doing here?” And we says, “Well, it’s supposed to go to Ben Het.” “Well, why isn’t it at Ben Het?” And being out in the field, you’re just disconnected from anything and everything. He didn’t know they had been under siege for months. And they had been under siege to the point to where we couldn’t get anything in or out. We dropped �rations on the runway at one point with a C-130. It got so shot up that the wings fell off it before it got back to base. The rations that were dropped were what we call a low-level extraction. They come across the field, they throw a parachute out, the stuff is dragged out the back and dropped on the runway. They couldn’t get the stuff off the runway. It rotted on the runway. They loaded up a tank retriever and a tank retriever is bigger than a tank and it’s more armored. It’s got a 12cylinder, diesel engine and I forget how much horsepower it’s got but it’s unbelievable. And this thing can fasten to a tank and drag a tank off the battlefield with no treads. (00:34:11) Veteran: Because that’s a common thing to have happen: have a track get blown off a tank. And then it is immobile. It’s a sitting pillbox, if you will. And this thing would go out and fasten to that tank and drag it off a battlefield. It’s a pretty substantial piece of hardware. They let one of them get right in the gate going into Ben Het and then blew it up. Nothing got in or out of that place. Nothing. Well, he takes a look at all these supplies and he says, “Well, we can’t have that.” He wanders off and he comes back later and he got a jeep from somewhere—I have no idea where he got it from. And he just puts a bunch of whole supplies on the jeep: well they need this, they need that, they need this. And all he’s got is his M-16. And it’s leaning against the dahs. And he takes off. He drove all the way down to Ben Het, down the road that goes—one road that goes there—drove down, drove around the tank retriever, into the base, delivers the supplies. And they go, “Well, we will find you a place to stay. You know, we are going to—” “Stay? I’ve got to go on patrol tomorrow.” He jumped back in the jeep and drove all the way back. Nobody even shot at him. Interviewer: Right. �Veteran: And the only thing I can assume is somethings happen in combat…It’s like playing— it’s like counting coup. And they happen from time to time and when you see them, you just sort of stand there and go. Interviewer: Right. Yeah, I think we did have that particular piece of story in the previous round. But let’s—but this is a fellow who would go off and he would go across into Laos or into Cambodia as part of what he would do? Veteran: He was typically working with just the Vietnamese on our side. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And one night, he—again, they left him. And for a while we had a contact and for a while we were trying to get at him but he was in a heavy…Jungle over there can get triple canopy and I don’t know if people here know what I am talking about but the trees will grow up and they’ll make a complete canopy. And then, they will grow up and make another complete canopy. And then they’ll grow up and make another. And they get so thick that we have had aircraft that have had, with extreme difficulty, have landed on top of the canopy and stayed there. (00:36:32) Veteran: I don’t know if you can imagine it. And then they drop 160-foot rope that we sometimes used for the guys to repel out or we would do string jobs across the border to pick people out. And they’ve repelled down and not been able to get to the ground yet. Just amazing. Anyway, he was in one of those kind of areas. We couldn’t fly in to get him. We couldn’t…It was difficult doing anything. Then, battery runs out. You run out of contact with him. I don’t remember now whether it was days or weeks later but they found him alongside the main road and they had broken his arms and bent him around and nailed his arms to the tree. Don’t know if �that was before he was dead or after he was dead. His privates were cut off and they were stuffed in his mouth. Don’t know if he bled to death or suffocated. But he didn’t go easy. And I went down to the bunker that was behind my hooch and threw open the door and it was the first time there wasn’t a bit of liquor in there. And I went up to the officer’s club and I was intent—I was having a hard time with that one. And I came in and I don’t remember the gal who run the bar for me but she popped a knee-high orange and just slid it down the bar. And that sort of shortcircuited me. (00:38:05) Veteran: And she somewhat saved me. Because I was going to tie one on. He was way past his 6-months. Why they kept him out there, I don’t know. I know the commander from that unit. I don’t think he’s the type to hold a grudge. I don’t know if they had nobody else to put out there and he was the best skilled. So, you put him out there figuring he is less likely to get…Don’t know. I mean, I think I told you before I was covering a convoy and the convoy stopped. Interviewer: Yep, yep. Veteran: He ran into the jungle and I am looking, going what?? And I am flying convoy cover. And I am going what’s going on down there? Because he went into the jungle all by his lonesome. And he come out later and he threw something in the back of the jeep and, of course, I am 1000 feet over the top of the convoy. I can’t tell precisely what he did. But he threw something in the back of the jeep. I’ve got pictures at home of him standing in front of the mess hall with the gals you were talking about and he’s got a snake that was about this big around. He’s holding it with both arms like this and the thing is just barely touching the ground on both sides. He’d shot it behind the head twice with his 45 and brought it back and put it in the jeep and brought it back. I don’t know. That was something that was important to him but you get a little loose-wired. I mean, you been in combat long enough. When you first started, you were �scared to death and after a while you just do. And he felt safe enough I guess at the time with the situation, he just went and got the snake. Interviewer: Yep. I know you talked about him staying out in the field, that maybe that he wanted to be in the field. Veteran: I don’t know. If he’d been one of my men and I had the men to spare, I don’t care if he wants to or not; he’d done his time. And you can play the numbers and that’s exactly what I talk about at times. You can play the numbers and if you play them long enough, your number is up. And you can get away with anything for a while. You know, there’s old pilots and there’s bold pilots. But there is no old, bold pilots. (00:40:16) Interviewer: Okay. Now, another dimension of the Vietnam War that was going on while you were there was the incursion into Cambodia. We officially did go in and send substantial numbers of troops. Did that effect what you did? Or what was your connection to that? Veteran: Well yeah, if they are going, the artillery needs to go. And while we got 8-inches and 175s and these are big guns like you’d find on a battleship. And these things were actually mounted on track vehicles. Military didn’t have any more of them anymore. They used rockets in their places. But they were on the border. Now, 8-inch is real accurate but it is not as long. Well, 175 is real long and we used to joke you’re lucky to get two of them in the same grid square. Because the further out you shoot, the more difficult it is to be accurate with them. So yeah, we were moving. We moved some of the 105s, sp-105s, up the border. We brought in some 155s and airlifted them in when we could. But that was during part of the monsoon season and it was bad. And trying to even navigate those roads is bad. And we had a section between Camp Enari, �that was where 4th infantry division was, it was between Pleiku and the border. And then there was a couple other special forces camps. And the end of that road was Plei Drang. And that was an area where they kicked off to go in and a lot of these special forces camps have airstrips and stuff by them left over from the French. And…Well, again, like I said, I had a fairly cushy job. The infantry goes first, the artillery is behind them somewhere, shooting. It would be nice if you had a conventional war where you had a frontline. Because in Vietnam, there is no front lines. And they pop up anywhere and everywhere and there’s really no front line. And that road was known somewhat to be full of ambushes and we were covering it. And I am covering a convoy going. And the weather was bad. (00:42:25) Veteran: I told my crew chief, “Get a machine gun.” And I normally didn’t. I was flying a 58 at the time and it can carry 4 people. And I had an aerial observer in the front and he’d had some stick time. He could get us down in one big chunk, I think, if things required. Crew chief for the back and he normally had a monkey harness and a short strap that went back and clipped into the seatbelts so he couldn’t fall out. And had a machine gun that hung on a bungee cord from the door. Door? No door. Doorway. Doors were off. And then he asked me if his roommate could go because I didn’t ask anybody else. And he says, “You need another gunner.” Okay. But I didn’t normally fly with anybody else. So, we took another gunner and we were flying ahead of the convoy, trying to deliberately draw fire. Low, slow, stupid, whatever. But the weather was so bad, I couldn’t get high anyway. I mean, there were times I couldn’t see my own rotor blades. And I am hugging the treetops. It got so bad for a while, I actually hovered on the convoy. At one point, I heard dust off call off Plei Drang and they were coming south. And I called them on the radio and I said, “You got wheels on that thing?” Because the weather was that bad, you know. And he says, “What are you doing?” And I says, “Well, I am covering a convoy and I am �coming up the other side.” So, I asked him if he was on his side of the road because it was kind of a joke: IFR is Instrument Flight Rules. And in Vietnam, we used to say IFR is I Follow Roads. And in bad weather, we’d get low to the roads and hug the roads. (00:44:17) Veteran: He was coming down, I was going up. I made sure he was on his side, he made sure I was on my side. Normally in combat we flew with the lights off, even at night. So, if you look outside here and you see an aircraft go by and you see the little lights on the outside and you see the rotor rotating beacons? We had them off. We turned them on. And we even turned our marker lights on flash so the lights that are on the outside of the aircraft are flashing. I got two rotating beacons on my aircraft and they are both going. And in that area, right in the middle, was a plantation. I don’t remember now if it was a rubber or a tea plantation. And on one side is the house and on one side was manufacturing and whatever. And they ran a powerline because the generator is only on one side of the road so they ran a powerline across. And that’s kind of rare in the jungles to find powerlines, you know? I mean, Vietnam didn’t have a lot of powerlines. And so, I asked them to call the powerline. He said he would. And we had radio contact and we were on our own sides of the road. And we had all the beacons on and the lights and we both called the powerline at the same time. And we got extra people in the aircraft so it ain’t just me trying to fly and look where I am going and look to see if I can see him and—we had other people. We didn’t see each other. So, that’s what you get. And that was a day when breakfast to dinner was C rations, if I had a chance. Good share of that day, I set the aircraft down, they refueled it running. You had it refueled and right back up and going. And didn’t have any time to stay or do anything or…You got personal business to do, you relieve yourself under the tail boom of the aircraft. Ain’t got time to run any place else. It was a busy day. (00:46:10) �Interviewer: Now, when you were going into Cambodia, was that more dangerous than flying over Vietnam? Or was it basically the same? Veteran: You never know. I mean, I’d like to say yes because the president was stupid enough to tell them we are coming, first off, so they knew what we were going to be doing. But they also then could know we were coming and pull out whatever they want: pull their troops back, go to the jungle and stay put. A lot of times, we would make contact with them and they’d split up into 3-man units and just disappear. There were times where we thought we had them surrounded, literally surrounded, cordoned off in the jungle. You swear they couldn’t go anywhere. And they’d break down into 3-man units and infiltrate right between our lines and be gone. Just evaporate. Before I got there, when they went in and fought at Imperial Palace. I can’t think of the name of the city. The Tet Offensive. Interviewer: Well, that was Huế. Veteran: Yeah, Huế. They were already prepared and fought in the city and they retreated all the way to the Imperial Palace. And you’d swear they were there, they can’t get out, they can’t go anywhere. Next day, they were gone. And that’s one of the big question marks of the war: how did they get out of there? Don’t know. They had them cornered into the Imperial Palace. Place was surrounded. No place out. Next day, they are gone. But the Viet Cong, for the most part, everything was planned out in great detail. They didn’t do many things off the cuff. Or rapid reaction forces? They didn’t have. They planned everything out in great detail, including leaving. And a lot of times, things could be quiet for months and then you could have a battle that lasted 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 days and then—just as quiet. (00:48:24) �Veteran: So, you didn’t know. I mean, when I first got to Vietnam, we got shelled 3-4 times a week. Sometimes we were probed, sometimes there were people that actually got on the perimeter. And then I remember after a few months, we went for a month or two and nothing. Absolutely nothing. And we are wondering: what are they saving it all for? What’s going to happen? And then we started thinking: how many of our people—because this was a different war and we didn’t go over as a solid unit, we didn’t go back as a solid unit, people rotated in and rotated out—how many of our people were brand new now? How many of our people hadn’t actually been under fire and been tested? How many of them don’t know what they’re going to do? And it got kind of an eerie feeling because you didn’t know if they were going to have an all out offensive on you. Or if maybe because of Tet, they’d run out of their reserve? And they didn’t have any fuel in the tank to keep fighting with? Or…You just didn’t know. And you’re sitting there. So, your question is a good one because there were times where they popped up like that firebase between Dragon Mountain and Camp Enari. They hit that one and it was one evening. They came through the South Vietnamese section of that base and got into our base and, with charges, disabled 85% of the artillery we had there. Blew up 85% of the bunkers. We were shooting them running around inside the compound. I mentioned Ben Het. Within minutes of them starting the attack, there were people running around with satchel charges inside the base. (00:50:17) Veteran: They tunneled underneath the barbed wire, come—we didn’t know they were even there or done that. And all of a sudden, they are just there and you got to fight. So, you know I had heard soldiers from World War 2 talk about hurry up and wait. And you don’t know when they are going to start a fight. You don’t know when the fight is going to end. You don’t know…In Vietnam, there was no frontline. Leastwise in World War 2, if they came through like �the Battle of the Bulge, when they started it and who they were there, you knew where they— they were moving troops to fight it. Vietnam? You were fighting with what you had for the most part. I mean, you might bring in puff the magic dragon. You might bring in an aerial gunship. Call over to Camp Halloway and get some of our helicopter gunships to come shoot it up if things are getting bad. There were some rapid reaction units we had but most of them were for the field. You get hit and you’re a convoy, you’re fighting your way out of the mess. And normally they wouldn’t stay there long enough for you to bring in reinforcements or do anything. So, my take on was it more dangerous to go into Cambodia? I don’t think so. I think we somewhat caught them off-guard. I don’t think they were prepared or thinking over there offensively. And I don’t think their bases were really set up that offensive. The people we put over the border prior to that were all small patrols, for the most part. LRRP patrols: Long Range Recon patrols. There were not a lot of men. When they encountered a lot of enemy, they used artillery, they used air strikes, they used whatever. They didn’t try and engage them themselves. They just ghosted away into the jungle. (00:52:25) Interviewer: Now, would you go in and get those people? Or would they just get themselves out? Veteran: Yeah. And there were times we went in and got them when they were in contact. And a couple times we did what we call a string job. We—they couldn’t get to an open LZ, landing zone. Found a hole in the jungle, dropped 160-foot rope and hoped it reached the ground. They had a—like a jumpsuit, carabiner on the back, they’d hook you in. The most we could pull with a Huey out was 3. Well, it depends. If they weren’t too high in the mountains and the air wasn’t too hot that day, we could maybe take 4 and bring them straight up out of there and then fly them some place to where we could get to an LZ. And maybe you want to skip the first one; they �might be figuring you might land there. Go to the second one and set them down and then get them in the aircraft. Couple times close to there, we’d seen guys come all the way back to the staging field by Dak To. But most of those guys we were picking up over the border were mercenaries. CIA—fulltime CIA. Or they were, like I said, mercenaries which might be made up of a little bit of everything: Korean, Australian, Americans but not soldiers. Interviewer: And would they also use some of the non-Vietnamese Vietnamese? Like Hmong Chinese or Montagnards or…? Veteran: Yep. Some units were Vietnamese. Some of them functioned with Vietnamese over there. Depending on what they were doing. I mean, if you’re going to take a prisoner, it was nice if you could talk to them. (00:54:10) Veteran: But for the most part, LRRC patrols didn’t take prisoners. What are you going to do with them? And you don’t have that much firepower to begin with and if you got a guy or two watching the prisoner, he’s a guy or two that can’t shoot and everybody has got to be able to. A lot of our medics over there decided after they had been there a while—the Viet Cong didn’t care whether they were medics. Well, medic was a high priority target for them. A lot of them started carrying weapons. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I know a couple of them decided nope, if things get that bad, there will be enough loose weapons laying around anyway; I don’t need to carry one. Just depends. I mean…Like I said, combat has got a habit of changing you and…At one time, I think, I don’t know if you asked me or I just brought it up, but a hero is something I had been asked after I got back, a lot. What’s a hero? And the more I thought about it, I finally came up with I know what a hero is now. A hero �is a person whose character is so developed that when the situation comes, he doesn’t think. He just knows what’s got to be done and he does it. If you think of a kid in a street, a car is coming, you don’t look at the car and calculate the distance and figure, you know, can I get the kid? You run and grab the kid and if everything goes right, you roll off the other side of the road and you got the kid and it turned out fine. Every one of the guys I know that I would call a hero, whether they got the medals for it or not, all of them have said later, “That’s the dumbest thing I ever did. You know, if I had thought about it, I wouldn’t have done it.” But they just knew it had to be done. They knew they were the person to do it. They were…I always talk about the right place at the wrong time. And they just do it. Combat has got a habit of doing that. You sort of build up a…I don’t know what you’d call it. When you get there, it’s like you’re scared of everything and after a while, you don’t get that feeling of invincibility because you know you’re not. But you sort of build up a tolerance for it. I don’t know how you explain it but you just know. (00:56:27) Veteran: I mean, if you would have told me when I got to Vietnam I’d run through a mortar attack, I’d have laughed at you. Ain’t no way, dude. I am going to stay under my bed against the wall where the sandbags are. I am going down to my bunker. I am going to—Nope. If the stars are out, I can get off the ground. That aircraft is getting airborne. And the sooner I can get airborne, the sooner I can shoot back at what is shooting at us and less people are in danger. You got a job to do and you just go do it. And you don’t think about it. I mean, first time you probably think about it. Second or third time, you don’t give it much thought. I was talking with some guys at a pow-wow, that was sponsored by the Purple Heart Association, a pow-wow by White Cloud this last weekend and we were commenting about stuff like that. And 4th of July, I don’t get along very well with. Bottle rockets go off and I am subconsciously counting how long �I can run before the round impacts in our base. And the thing is, the bottle rockets on the 4th of July never land. And I am just still counting, you know. It’s just… Interviewer: Alright. We got a lot of different stories here to kind of catch up on and plug in, which is actually great. Veteran: You’re going to have to be doing a bunch of editing. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, see I’ll be having—we are creating material, while people may watch this on WKTV, we are primarily making this for the archive and as long as we got it, we are good. Okay. Now, we have a number of other—we have talked some about dealing with the civilian population and the Vietnamese and so forth. And there’s a number of pieces of your story that relate to that that I want to bring in. One of them has to do—some of it has to do with dealing with the Montagnards. I think there was a point when you had to deal with a mother and her baby? What was that story? (00:58:26) Veteran: This was during the monsoons and they had brought a Montagnard woman…I say this but she was maybe 14, with her child into 71st evacc hospital. The child was jaundiced. And they were trying to help. They got it into the hospital and determined there was nothing they could do and the baby was going to die. Montagnard religion teaches that if they die away from home, their spirit wanders forever, trying to find home. Due to the monsoons, they couldn’t get anybody to get her back and taking the road takes a long time. I mean, even during the monsoons, when things get bad enough, the MPs and everything are pulled off the road and she’d have to ride her water buffalo back out there. Since I flew the chaplains and I worked with the chaplains a bunch, I got a call at the aviation section at artillery hill. And they asked me if I could take her back out to her village. And it was at a special forces camp. And I called the Air �Force base and checked with the weather people and there really wasn’t enough time. Now, this was going to sound churchy but this is part of the story, I felt by the Spirit that I could do it. And I just knew. But I was short time on both ends of the window. They told me within plus or minus 5 minutes when they thought the weather would stop and within plus or minus when they thought the weather was going to start again. So, I got an aircraft and I went over 71st Evac and landed on their pad. Of course, I say landed, you know the engine is still running and everything is going and they bring her out and they put her in the…I had taken the controls out and everything on the other side. There was only me in the 58 and they put her in the co-pilot’s seat on the other side. And I said to them, I said, “Does she speak Vietnamese?” They said, “No.” “Does she speak English?” “No.” “Does anybody here speak Montagnard?” “No.” “Does she know where she is going? Does she know what we are doing?” “No.” “Oh…” (01:00:49) Veteran: Now, these people, they’re like our Indians. They live in the jungle. About the only thing you will find in their village that is manmade, maybe outside their village, is a machete. And a lot of them are home grown and made. If the chaplains haven’t got to them, missionaries haven’t been there, the women are bare-chested—they got a piece of cloth wrapped around their waist that goes down to about mid-calf. The guys wear a loin cloth. That’s it. Kids to about age 14 run around naked as a jaybird. And they are very, very moral people. They put her in the front seat and, you got to keep in mind, I am a military pilot and I am in a flight suit and I got long sleeves and gloves and things are velcroed and and velcroed down to my boots and I’ve got sunglasses on and my helmet and visor down and I look like some sort of big bug sitting in the front of this thing. Now, she’s in the front of this and you got all the plexi glass so you can see. And my aircraft does about 120 miles per hour ground speed. (01:02:09) �Veteran: And where we are at, at 71st Evac, I can’t get airborne out of there because we are under the approach path for the Air Force base, which is—usually the hospitals are built right next to the Air Force base for obvious reasons, for evacuation and that. So, I come out of there and I am low-leveling. And I get out of part of Pleiku but I am still on the end of Pleiku air base’s runway. So, I am low-leveling across the rice paddies and stuff out there. And she sees my hand on the collective over here, my left hand, and she looks over there and she grabs it. I guess it looks like something worthwhile holding on to. Well, it controls the pitch in the main rotor blades, it determines basically how high you are and I am about 6 inches off the rice. And she’s holding on to this and I am looking at her and looking at this and looking at her. Of course, now I got my sunglasses on, she can’t see my eyes. And I am trying to let her know that no, no, she got to let go of that. And she finally does and I smile at her. And then I am going out a ways from the base and I notice this sucker hole. And a sucker hole is—in bad weather, if you get into one of them, you start thinking you can go over the top of it and it closes in on you. And I am not worried about it closing in on me because I am instrument rated and I can just jump on the instruments and I know where the tops are so I can come out on top. So, I get in this thing and I corkscrew up to the top and I am over the top and I am looking at this huge cotton field. I can’t see anything for orientation. Absolutely nothing. So, I start calling a few places and I get on their radar. And I am printed on about 3 different radars. And I tell them where I want to go and they’re radar vectoring me. So, I am talking to them and working my way out there and I get over the top of the base where she lives and they tell me I am there. (01:04:11) Veteran: And lo and behold, another sucker hole opens up. And I corkscrew down through and drop her off. And then I come out of there—corkscrew back up—and start heading back. And again, can’t recognize anything, can’t see anything. Of course, it wasn’t raining when I was �down there either so it’s fine but the tops can build real fast. The weather can go down the drain in minutes and I am coming back and now it’s just a matter of time and distance and heading. You just…And as I am going along fat, dumb, and happy, all of a sudden, my FM radio goes beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. And I know I am in a world of trouble. At that time, the guys, the pilots, were getting fuzz busters from the states. And I just got printed by ground defense radar. And it swept me and my FM radio will pop then and that’s what I heard. And then it will come back and pop me again and they narrow it in, they lock on me. And I am expecting to get shot any minute. And instead of just sitting there doing nothing, my first response when I got swept and then got swept again, before they even locked onto me, I jumped on my radio and I told the first radar place, “Mark me on your screen.” And they did with a grease pencil. And I am calling the next one, “Mark me on your screen.” I ain’t telling them why, just telling “Mark me.” And they are marking me on the screen. And then I come back and I tell each one of them as I can, because each one of them is on a different frequency, that I have just been printed by ground defense radar and I am expecting to get shot at. And I don’t get shot at. I don’t know why. I just keep going. The next thing I know, they are telling me that I am over Artillery Hill. That’s 52nd Group headquarters in Pleiku. (01:06:10) Veteran: I can’t see a thing. And I am getting ready to go over to Pleiku and shoot an instrument approach into the Air Force base. And about then, a sucker hole opens up. And I corkscrew right on down through and I manage to end the corkscrew right on the end of our runway. How fortuitous. Right at the end of our runway. And I get on the runway and I am at 3-foot standard and start hovering down the runway and the heavens open up. And I can’t even see to hover down our runway. I look sideways and I can’t even, through the open door on the other side of the aircraft, even see the dividing line down the middle of the runway. I look through the chin �bubble and I can see part of the stones and that and the pentaprime on the asphalt. And I set the aircraft down on the ground. And shut it off and they come out with ground handling equipment. They had to put it in the rear that way. That happened to me on—this is one—but I went out for another guy who had FUO, Fever of Unknown Origin, and this same sort of thing happened. And that one, I was flying towards a wall and you just look at it. Here is this black wall. Ground is 60+ thousand feet. And that may not mean anything to you but over 12,000 we can’t operate for over a half hour without oxygen. What’s Everest? 29,000? Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So, 60+ thousand feet wall. And I am flying straight towards the wall. And same feeling again. Knew I could get out, knew I could get back. Knew it would be okay. Matter of fact, my crew chief at that time says to me, he was flying with me—I cranked up the aircraft. He says, “Where you going?” I told him. He says, “Well, I am coming with you.” I says, “You’re crazier than a march hare.” He says, “No, no.” He says, “You get in that stuff,” he says, “At least you’ll need somebody to change radios.” He says, “I can read some of the instruments for you, I can help you out in the cockpit, I can cut down your workload.” I says, “You want to—” I am getting goosebumps. I wouldn’t ask him to go. I wouldn’t put him in that situation. And yet I knew I could get there and get back safely and I’d do it for somebody else but I wouldn’t put anybody else’s life in that situation. (01:08:31) Veteran: And he insisted on going with me. And again, we are painted on everybody’s radar. Nothing to do but time, distance, and heading. And he looked at me and he says, “What are you thinking, sir?” I says, “You don’t want to know.” He says, “Yes, I do.” I says, “Well,” I says, “Don’t jump up and shoot me right away, hear me out totally.” He says, “Okay.” “I was thinking it would be a great day to die.” He says, “What??” “Well, you know, I got a t shirt that says ‘you �can’t take this life too seriously, no one gets out alive.’ You got to go. I get into that thing, I am going to be hit like a bug on a—with a flyswatter. You’re not going to know what happened. You’re not going to suffer. You’re not going to go through prolonged pain. You’re not going to…Is there a better way to go? Trying to save a fellow man?” You know. I mean, it was a…and I wasn’t trying to be suicidal. And I wasn’t trying to be a hero. And I just…If it was me out there, I would want somebody to come. If it was my brother, I’d want—and he was my brother. You’d want somebody to come. And I thought I could do it. And we did. But that was another one: I got to the runway and it was like I flew into the ocean. I mean, that’s just what it was like. It was like I was underwater it was raining that—it was raining so hard you could stand on one side of the runway and couldn’t see the other side. (01:10:04) Interviewer: Have you ever experienced physical conditions like that since you got back to the states? I mean, is a really, really bad rainstorm that we might have here similar to that? Or…? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Was that a whole other level? Veteran: No. I have seen clouds at times that looked as menacing and you have to understand, I am a HAM radio operator. I do work with storm watch and we certify the weather before the TV stations and that can give it out to the public. I have been in—well, I haven’t been in the tornado. I’ve been close enough that I think if I had thrown a baseball, it would throw it back at me. But I am also on the downside track of the—it’s past me. I am coming in from the side and going behind it. But no, I have never seen rain like we…I mentioned at one time, one of the stories my wife wants me to tell you, is we had the aircraft grounded for over 21 days. Flying nothing. It �didn’t even go to a drizzle. It just steadily poured for 21 days. And the guys came in that morning and they said, “You read the scriptures?” I said, “Well yeah. A little bit.” “How long did it take the Lord to flood the earth?” I said, “Well, we got a little while. Besides that, he opened up the earth and water flushed out.” And I said, “We got a little bit.” And a little while later that afternoon, an aircraft landed on our field. And it was our sister unit from down in Phù Cát. Well, in Vietnam the country is long and narrow. And when you get by the coast, you have lowlands and you get up in the high lands where you got the highlands and there is two passes to get in there. You got the Mang Yang Pass before you get to An Khê and then you got the An Khê Pass dropping down into the lowlands. And this fool had come up and low-leveled through both passes and then low-leveled the road all the way into us. And we had nothing flying. Neither was the Air Force base. (01:12:14) Veteran: Matter of fact, my guys came in that morning and were placing bets in the back room: was I going to cave? Was I going to give in to these commanders? And I was literally telling them that if they wanted to go someplace, they could take their jeep. Well, remember I told you the MPs didn’t go out and secure the roadway? Well, if he is going to take his jeep, he better take the tanks with him and something else. It was that bad. And I tried talking to this young W-1 and that’s first rank coming off flight school so they got W-1, W-2, W-3, W-4 at that time. And I was a W-2. And he literally told me I was yellow. He literally told me I was an old man and I needed to turn in my wings. And one of my biggest regrets from Vietnam was I didn’t send a mechanic out to disable his aircraft. I told him if he’d stayed, I’d take the flak. I’d say I forbid him to take off; all he’s got to do is say runway is—airport is closed, he couldn’t leave. He wouldn’t listen. I told him at least call Mang Yang Pass to let us know you was there because once he goes through, we can’t maintain radio contact with him. He went out and we didn’t hear anything and �we didn’t hear anything and we didn’t hear anything. Phone rang. Picked it up. Guard post in the pass. There’s an OH-58 tail boom there and a fire. Do we have anything flying? Because we got the 58s. 13 of 20 of them that are in all of Vietnam. I immediately called group headquarters and told the old man there was a 58 down and burning in the Mang Yang Pass. I was going to the crash site. If he wanted to go, be here in 5 minutes. (01:14:14) Veteran: I wasn’t going to wait for him. We readied the aircraft and I left. I flew and landed at the crash site. Later, when we recovered the stuff there, they put everything but the tail boom in 2 bushel baskets. They hit so hard they pulled the seatbelt anchors right out of the floor. Nearest they can tell, they landed at an artillery firebase just before the pass and they picked up some paint there. The aircraft was full. There was the commander, his first sergeant, the pilot, and somebody else they picked up. The people in the pass said they had saw them open the door and throw something out. There was paint on a few of the pieces they picked up and put in. They suspected that somebody may have been smoking and set the paint on fire and he may have thrown the can of paint out the door. Don’t know. But if you think of a river going, a creek or a river, going down through rapids in a rapid area, you know how you see the white water and you see the bubbling and…? The passes are like that. And they suspect that the pilot’s attention was diverted and that he may have been trying to circle in the pass to…and got caught in the down draft. And he just literally flew into the side of the pass. I came up off of there where he had crashed, turned around and was going back and located what looked like another crash site. Reported it and they found a crash site of an OH-6 that had went down a little over a year ago. Identified that by the pistol and by the dog tags. And that one had just disappeared. I was flying back to our base and the group commander with me says, “You’re getting kind of short.” I said, “Yes sir.” He says, “When are you going to quit flying?” I says, “7 days before I am due to �leave, like everybody else.” He says, “No.” He says, “You’re grounded now.” I says, “What??” He says, “You’re grounded now.” I says, “You want to take the controls?” He says, “No, no, we will get to the base.” (01:16:38) Veteran: He wouldn’t even let me start an aircraft up on the pad. He wouldn’t let me do anything. He wouldn’t let me even get near the aviation section. 23 days before I was due to leave. Longest time I spent in Vietnam was the last 23 days. And I mean, I didn’t hang out at the pool, I didn’t…The warrant officer from personnel called me at one point and he says, “Would you like to carry some orders?” I says, “What??” He said, “We got some orders, got to go to a couple bases and that. And,” he says, “they got to be hand carried.” And he says, “You want to hand carry some orders and some intelligence reports and stuff?” “Yeah.” So, I go over to the Air Force base and grab the C-130 and, you know, fly some place and did a little of that before I was due to leave. But long time. Long time. You’d rather work. You’d rather get shot at. You’d rather be doing something. But that’s my biggest regret. That kid… Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: He…Young. Dumb. And I know what happened. The commander talked him into flying. And he didn’t have the brass to stand up to him and say no. I mean I was putting up with it every day. When he landed at our base, our phone went nuts. Every commander on the base was calling me. Anybody with any rank. Company commanders were calling me. “I want to go to—” “We are not flying any.” “I heard an aircraft.” “We’re not flying anything.” You know, I just…And he flew out and…My comment to them all the time was “Who is dying?” (01:18:19) Veteran: And they would say, “What?” “No sense flying and trying to risk death if somebody ain’t dying. This is not the weather to be flying in.” And I’ll fly if somebody is…you know, if �there is a good reason. If there is—combat-wise, like I said, I did that one piece between Plei Drang and Dragon Mountain; opposite sides of the same road and didn’t see the aircraft. Do what’s got to be done. But just to go up there and do an inspection? Or to go jaw-jack with somebody or…Use your radio. Use a voice secure rig. Talk to them. I mean… Interviewer: Okay. Now, in conjunction sort of with that, being stuck places, there was a point when you got stuck in Dak To? How did that happen and what was that? Veteran: I was up north. It was later afternoon. Flying a commander. And Dak To is a provincial headquarters. That’s like saying a township hall. And that’s involving all the local people but besides that, we have what do you want to call them? PR people? That are there that are working with the locals and stuff. Plus, you never know what’s going to be there. But anyway, he had radio contact with them because I have a variety of radios in my aircraft and the commander was using one of them. And was talking to them at Dak To, wanted to know if we couldn’t land at Dak To, he wanted to talk to some people face-to-face. I said, “Okay.” So, it was on the way. I mean, what’s the big deal? So, I landed there. He told me he was going to be, I don’t remember now. Say it’s an hour. So, you don’t keep the aircraft running. You shut it down, you tie down the rotor blades and stuff like that. I was walking away and I probably got 50 feet from the aircraft when the first mortar shell landed in the ammo supply dump next door. (01:20:23) Veteran: And once that happens, it’s a chain reaction. And as I ran back to my aircraft, I heard what sounded like Volkswagen doors flying overhead and, I mean, just huge pieces of metal going through the air and ground shaking. Because you’re talking about, well, an ammo supply dump. I mean, anything and everything you can think of and I told you the staging field was just down the road a little bit for over the border. So, there were—I don’t know what all was in that place but it was going up. I untied the rotor blades and started—tried to start the aircraft—and it �wouldn’t start. Well, once you go through a start-up procedure, your starter is a small motor. They don’t like to build them any bigger than they have to because they’re heavy. So, you’re supposed to let it cool off. I tried burning it up. I made 3 or 4 attempts to start the aircraft without trying to let it cool. Wouldn’t start. Wouldn’t start. So, I left it. Ran over to technical operations center there. And down the bunker. That place cooked off until about 2 in the morning. And from the minute that supply dump was hit, there were Vietnamese—North Vietnamese again— running around inside that base with satchel charges. Throwing them in various bunkers and stuff. So, grabbing the technical operations center probably wasn’t the smartest thing to do. But I knew where that one was. And just being on the ground wasn’t a good deal because normally an explosive, like if you get a mortar coming in, it hits the ground, it detonates. It blows up. So, if you’re on the ground you can be fairly close to it and be fairly safe. Now, this stuff is going off and raining down and going everywhere. So, I sat in the technical operations center with a cock locked 45 watching the door to make sure we didn’t get a satchel charge in that bunker for a good share of the evening. (01:22:36) Veteran: And then they told me, “Well, things calmed down.” And I could still hear everything cooking off but there was no ground activity and stuff. And they says, “We’ll get you a place to sleep.” And so, they took me out and…I think it was a hooch, I don’t think it was a tent. Anyway, everything is sandbagged up about 3 feet and the bunk was on the inside of these sandbags. And sticking in the sandbag is an RPG and it hadn’t gone off. It just stuck in the sandbags. And I am looking at that and the bunk is in the other side and they said something to me and I said, “I can live with it.” And I slept the night with this RPG stuck in the sandbags. Next day, they brought up a maintenance crew from…It’s 52nd aviation headquarters actually at Camp Holloway which is in Pleiku. And they took a look at the bird and it had a hole in the �pilot’s windshield this big around with the piece of shrapnel that made it is all tangled in the seat. And the aircraft is a piece of swiss cheese. The reason it wouldn’t start is there is something called an excitor box. And in the cart, you have a distributor and spark plug wires. Well, a jet engine that these things have, they’re set up in such a way so when you reduce the back blast, and that’s where they have all the stators and veins to pull the power out of it—to power the main rotor blades—but it’s a jet engine nonetheless. Once they are started, you have continuous flame inside. Well, this excitor box gives spark to the spark plug that is there and it starts that fire in your engine. Piece of shrapnel, right in the box. (01:24:24) Veteran: So, they wired one on the cowling or…well, what do you want to call it? It’s like the hood of your car opens up to get to the engine. They wired one on there and rerun the wires so I could fly it. But now this seat is not going to be comfortable and the windshield has got the big old hole in it and this thing is all full of swiss cheese and there’s holes in the rotor blades so when it is flying it’s going (whistling).We put sandbags up in the side of the pilot. One thing you don’t think about is a helicopter is basically just a box underneath the rotor blades. And if it’s not balanced, if it gets off enough, you lose control because the blades only tilt so far. So, the helicopter has to be balanced and if it ain’t in balance, you get up and you’re just flying some way until you crash. So, we had to put sandbags on the pilot’s side because I don’t have enough lead in my pencil sitting on the co-pilot’s side to balance it. And they put it on a one-time red X and I got to fly it back and that was interesting because I walked around that aircraft and wasn’t sure I really wanted to…And the tech rep didn’t want to fly with me. But yeah, that’s getting stuck at Ben Het. That was a— Interviewer: Was that Dak To or…? Veteran: Dak To, yeah. Well, Ben Het was down the road from there but that was Dak To. �Interviewer: Alright. And you were talking about sandbags. Sandbags I guess are ubiquitous in Vietnam. We’ve got some occasion with that. Veteran: I got in trouble. Our aviation unit…Well, about anywhere where you have a helipad, guys in Vietnam would gather. And if you’d been on R and R and you need to go back to your unit, you’d go to a place where you knew the helicopters came in and out of and you’d walk up and ask them if they had a seat and ask them if you could ride with them. (01:26:20) Veteran: Well, our little base—we didn’t have a separate bunker for people that were just hanging around to fly somewhere. And we had to build a separate bunker and we had to build a building down there and that’s because they decided we had an aviation company and of course this is during the Vietnamization Project. So, everything—they weren’t big on building anything. Our actual main building was built out of railroad ties, believe it or not. We drilled holes and put rebar through them and then they made us sandbag it. Wait a minute…This building ain’t—we don’t need sandbags. They made us sandbag it. It was SOP: standing operating procedure. It's got to be sandbagged. So, my guys had filled a lot of sandbags because we had to sandbag this building and then we had to make a bunker and now we got to make a bunker and a special shelter for all the people that are waiting to go somewhere. So, when I was through doing whatever work I had to do that day, I took off my tunic or my shirt and I went out there and I was helping my guys fill sandbags. And one of the commanders come down there and he caught me filling sandbags. And you know, officers I guess ain’t supposed to be doing stuff like that. And he's chewing me out. Well, as we mentioned earlier, I had been through NCO academy and I had been through a bunch of other things and I don’t ask my men to do anything I am not willing to do. And this almost felt like harassment, after a while, filling sandbag after sandbag after sandbag. So, I am filling sandbags with them. If it’s important enough for them to do, it’s �important enough for me to do. Well, I got chewed out and I got chewed out royally. And after the commander went—left—I went back to filling sandbags. (01:28:11) Veteran: A few days later, I am flying this commander and we are going out to this SP unit I was telling you about that does hip shoots. And they like to fill sandbags and put them actually on the armored vehicles to give them more armor and stuff. And anyway, they were filling sandbags out there and they’d been on hip shoots enough that their morale was kind of down. Kind of like my guys. And I’d told this commander what I was doing and got chewed out. Told him I was likely to do it again anyway and got chewed out. Anyway, we are here and he’s noticing their morale is real down and being a warrant officer, I am not in the guys’ troop command and I am not in line with the enlisted men and them in there. So, a lot of the enlisted men will come up and talk to me when they wouldn’t talk to commanders and other things. And I know that their morale was really bad. And the commander come back and I said something, I says, “You know, you are going to have to do something with these guys.” I says, “Their morale is in the tank really bad.” And he looks at me and he says, “You feel like filling sandbags?” I says, “What?” I says, “Sure.” So, he and I went over and helped them fill sandbags for the rest of the afternoon. I mean, we were there…I don’t know, 3-4 hours. And we wanted to take our tunics off to fill sandbags and the enlisted men didn’t want us to. They wanted us holding the sandbag or running the shovel. And cameras came from everywhere. I never saw so many cameras in my life. They’re taking pictures of us filling sandbags. But it helped. And yeah. That’s your sandbag story. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now, there’s another note here: sandbags, bunkers, something about a camouflaged bunker? Veteran: Every evening we had a mission where we had to go and fly around our base. And we would go out and look and see if anything is going on. To give you an idea of what we were �looking for, I wrote up a report one night that there was a place out there where they made charcoal. And they had like 5 charcoal kilns. And I noticed that the one kiln didn’t ever have a burn. And we are looking for things like that. And this night, I had an aerial observer with me. And they have to be color blind. Now, pilots can’t be color blind. They use light signals from the tower when your radio is out and that. You like to know what color it really is. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:30:41) Veteran: And the aerial observers are color blind because camouflage does not trick their eyes. They see shine, textures, things like that because they don’t see colors. And this was in the dry season. We start right at our base and we fly right around the barbed wire. Remember, we fly right over the top of our bunkers, our guard towers. Fly right over the top of our guard towers. And then we keep doing circles further and further out and further and further out. And we got out far enough, “Look at that! Dumb fools are building a bunker in the middle of the rice paddy.” Well, that time of year, the rice paddies are dry. They’re getting ready to harvest the rice and stuff. And he’s looking out there and he says, “Listen, they’re building a base.” And I am looking and I can’t see anything. I says, “You sure?” He says, “Yeah!” “Have fun.” So, he calls the base and has them shooting. They’re—when you shoot with artillery, it’s a big gun, it’s a big shell. And except for 8 inches, when you get at the edge of the gun fans, they’re not real accurate. So, he’s giving them over and under and left and right because we have adjusted all you normally can and they’re trying to fine tune things. We ain’t hitting anything and we are burning up a good share of ammunition. I finally said to him, I says, “Are you sure?” He says, “Yeah.” “Check the fire. I am going down to take a look.” So, I go down and I am coming across the rice paddy taking a look and I come to a hover. Sure enough, there was a bunker and Charlie is looking out at me and I am looking out at him. (01:32:15) �Veteran: Hard over with the stick and get out of there. And we go upstairs and he takes another firebase now. Because this one we know we are having—so he picks another firebase that’s a…It’s got 8 inches at it but it’s a little further away. And 8 inches are quite accurate. Well, you don’t know where the first round is necessarily going to go. So, he fires the first round and we cleared the rice paddies and we hit the edge of the jungle. We had secondaries to about 3-400 feet in the air. “What is this? Fire a couple more! Same thing.” You know? “Give a little dispersion on it.” And we got a couple more secondaries. Then we came back to shooting at the bunker that was in the middle of the rice paddy field. And, I don’t know, it was like a dozen rounds or something, he finally hit it. We had secondaries to 300 feet. And I don’t know what they had down in there and if it wasn’t for him, we’d have never shot at it. But he’s color blind, he could find it. I couldn’t find it. And people always find that interesting. Aerial observer is color blind? Don’t ask him to look at your map and tell you if it’s a friendly or an enemy position because we mark them in red, you know. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: At night it’s difficult too because we have red lights in the helicopter and it’s difficult to tell where the enemy is if you mark your map that way. And I have taken some guys out at night and no, no: don’t mark your enemy positions in red. You ain’t going to see it in the aircraft. Interviewer: Alright. Another entry we’ve got in here has to do with the kinds of support you would get from the Air Force? Like Puff the Magic Dragon or…? How did that work? Or what did you—or did you see it being used, I guess is the— Veteran: I was pulling guard duty one night when about 13 miles out one of our bases was getting hit and almost like the aurora borealis. I mean, it is just lighting up the sky. And from �time to time, you see tracers going off and going high in the sky. And they put in an arc light out there amongst others. B-52 strike. (01:34:22) Veteran: And you could literally feel the ground shake where we were. And then they, at one point during the night, brought in Puff the Magic Dragon. And when he’d fire, we could hear him. You could see it first and then later you’d hear him. And it was like a garden hose to the ground, reddish orange. But it looked funny because he’s flying around so the hose looks like it’s bent and it can’t be that way but it looks that way from a distance. And he’s shooting at the ground and you see the tracers bounce off and bounce up. That far away. And you wouldn’t think…I mean, many of the times when I am out flying, you’ll hear them come across and as they…This is whatever from 35,000 from the ground impacting you. Grid square blah blah blah from now until such and such. And they’re putting in an arc like strike. And you just can’t fathom what it is. But when you’re 13 miles away and you can hear the 20-millimeter Vulcan cannon on that thing shooting and you can see the tracers and you can feel the ground shake from the arc like…And you wonder how does anybody survive out there? I mean, Ben Het—when I talked about it being under siege—I can remember going back after it wasn’t under siege. Take doc up to investigate the—to check the mess hall, to see it’s clean and all those kinds of things and some of them who made it out of there alive. It looked like moonscape around that place except on the moon, there’s no water in the craters with algae. And there’s nothing out there. I mean, you see World War 2, there is a dead tree in the no man’s zone. I mean, there is nothing out there. And yet, we’d arc light it and as soon as they were through arc lighting, they’re back to fighting. How? (01:36:20) �Veteran: I have no clue. I mean, I have said to you before: I take my hat off to the Vietnamese. I don’t know how the North Vietnamese ever managed to fight, keep up the struggle, resupply their people. Even managed to live in the jungle and—I don’t know how. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, the arc lights did do a lot of damage and so did the mini guns on the—off something. Now, the Puff…was that a propeller plane? Veteran: Usually…Well, when I was there, they had a mix of old DC-3s. Of course, they’ve got a number of different nomenclatures. Those and C-130s. Now, they are all C-130s. Well, it’s not true. The Air Force has some C-20s, or the special forces, have some C-27s now which is a 2engine job that they used for gunships. And it looks like a C-130. But the one I was observing was a C-130 and he was going to town. I mean, if you can imagine the amount of 105s, semiautomatic gun, on the side of that thing and fire it while they are flying around in a circle. I mean, I can’t wrap my brain around it. I can’t. A Vulcan cannon, 20-millimeter Vulcan cannon, fires somewhere around 6000 rounds a minute. I—it’s like our mini gun going off. It sounds like you’re ripping cloth. They mounted one over Camp Holloway. This was the aviation base I was telling you about. Army aviation base on the other side of the hill. They mounted one on top of one of their bunkers, on top of one of their guard towers. When they fired it, the recoil was so bad that the guard tower fell over. Looked like, “Timber!” It just tilled it over. Fell down to the ground. When they first started mounting them on the Cobras when I was there, Cobras were fairly new. (01:38:16) Veteran: We had a lot of Charlie mounted gunships but Cobras were fairly new. And they mounted a couple of these Vulcan cannons on the Cobras. They only fired so many rounds at that point and they were checking the airframes for cracks. And if they fired too many rounds when they were on a gun run, it stopped the aircraft in midair. �Interviewer: Wow. Powerful stuff. Veteran: They’d come down flying because they are on a gun run, they’d fly faster than they’re supposed to. They’d get right up to the V and E, velocity not to exceed, they get right up to the edge of that, fire the gun and that would slow them down. Like popping flaps and putting on your landing gear on a fixed wing. It’d just slow them up. Interviewer: Alright. Now, I know going into this you mentioned being on guard duty at night. How commonly were you on guard duty and how did that work? Veteran: I’d have to guess. Seems to me it was every 2 to 3 months, something like that. Because officers always have additional other duties. The thing about guard duty that amazed me, because you don’t know what everybody else is doing and you don’t know what everybody else’s job is, because I’d scramble and get in my aircraft. I had my gun with me all the time. And I am going out to outer firebases. And these guys got their guns with them all the time because they are out there. Most of the guys that were on the base that I was assigned to, Artillery Hill in Pleiku, didn’t have their gun. They had a card in their billfold to go to the armory and get their gun. And I am going, “What?!” And I never realized that until I am pulling guard duty. And I am talking with the sergeant of the guard, the guy that is going to be assigned with me for the night, finding out a bit about this because if you don’t—if you’re an officer and you don’t use your sergeants, you’re dumber than a box of rocks. (01:40:06) Veteran: And I am checking with him. So, I told him, I says, “Do me a favor: inspect the troops, do what you want to do, go through all your commanding ceremony and then tell the guys to fall out and I want them to gather around.” And he did that and I got them to gather around and I says, “Guys, I know I have been going through the book. I know the SOP.” That’s one of my �first times pulling guard duty. They weren’t to unlock their ammo bunk. They have a footlocker in there with their ammo in it, the detonators for the mines that are out in the barbed wire. They weren’t to unlock that bunker until they were given orders from either the sergeant of the guard or the officer of the guard. Imagine standing guard duty with an empty gun? In Vietnam? And I am going, “No.” Anyway, I just told the guys, “Gather around.” I says, “I know the SOP. I wouldn’t pull guard duty with an empty gun. I don’t expect you to.” I says, “If you fire your gun, there’d better be a blood trail or a body in the wire because I won’t swing alone. Am I clear?” They go, “Yeah.” I go, “Okay.” And I then told them to go ahead and go on up. And I says, “I will be up all night. If you have any trouble, you call me.” Another thing you got down from my wife, I’ll go into now. I turned to the sergeant and because I was an officer, I wasn’t allowed to do maintenance on the vehicles. So, normally the sergeant would be up all night driving the vehicle around. And there was a bunk bed in the command building that I could sleep in. Well, I am a pilot. If I am up all night, they can’t fly me all day the next day unless it’s a combat situation. So, I told the sergeant, I says, “You got one or two choices. You can either stay up all night and drive me or you can give me the keys and use that cot and I’ll know where you are.” He looks at me and he says, “You serious, sir?” I said, “Uh-huh. Tomorrow, you’ll have to go to work. Up all night and have to go to work all day tomorrow. I’ll sleep until noon and then go in.” (01:42:28) Veteran: So, he gave me the keys. And I don’t sneak up in the guys on the perimeter. I tell them I am coming. I’ll be on one perimeter, I’ll call the next guard tower and tell them I am coming. Well, while I was out there, the one tower calls out and they say, “We are having trouble. People are coming out from our side up to the tower where they don’t belong and they’re harassing them and causing difficulty.” I says, “Okay.” I said, “Now, I am going to come and I am going to drive �up to the bunker or to the guard tower next to you. I’ll have my lights off, the whole bit. I am going to walk over to you then. Challenge me, do whatever you want, but I am telling you I am coming. Don’t be shooting me.” They said, “Okay.” So, I come over there and I am on this tower. And I had been there 15-20 minutes and sure enough, somebody came over from the NCO club, that’s where it looked like they came from, over to the tower. And they challenged him and he responded with some blue, I would say, words and turned the air kind of blue. And he ignored them and came over and started to climb up the ladder to the bunker. I cocked and locked my 45. “Halt.” He says, “Who the blankety blank are you?” I said, “I am warrant officer Frank Anthony, officer of the guard, and you will identify yourself or get shot.” And he’s just all of a sudden at a complete halt. Just on the ladder there. “I am sergeant so-and-so.” “Do you want to live?” “Yes, sir.” “I suggest you get the hell off my bunker and don’t come back.” “Yes, sir.” And he got down off the bunker and then come back. I then unloaded my 45, put the round back in the magazine, put it back in my holster. The guys in the bunker say, “You’d have shot him?” I says, “Yep and you should have too.” And they looked at me. But I says, “You didn’t have any ammo, did you?” (01:44:46) Veteran: But that’s the story my wife wanted me to tell you. He’d come out drunk and he just knew they weren’t supposed to have ammo. And I don’t know what he thought he was going to do out there. And I don’t know what he thought he was doing. But there’s three guys on the tower. And if they’re paying more attention to him and what’s going on, you know, he could have been the barber. I mean, it’s dark. This was at night. And there are some people that are still on the base at night. We took them in. I don’t remember what time the O club closed but every once in a while, I would go in with the girls in the deuce and a half and take all of them back to the center of town. And there were a number of Vietnamese that were still on the base until quite �late at night. And we’d take them back after dark. I don’t know who this is. He can tell me he’s a sergeant but I don’t know if…Now, he did have rather impeccable English for Vietnamese. Usually they had a little trouble with it. So, you know, I don’t know if I would have aimed at the center of mass or not but I’d have shot him. No doubt in my mind about that. But… Interviewer: Alright. Now there…You have some of the stuff that happens, I guess, maybe was actually funny? Or at least you had an interesting story. (01:46:04) Veteran: My wife thinks so. One story she likes is I was going up in I Corps. English was a place that wasn’t exactly in the highlands. And it wasn’t exactly in the delta but it was up in I Corps and it was a staging base for a lot of stuff. And they had, from what I could see, I only went there once, and it looked like a hodge-podge of a little bit of everything was in there. And I dropped a commander at a base and he’d been running around. He was going to stay for a while and I told him I was going to go up to English and refuel. Otherwise, he’s got to go with me when I refuel and what have you and he says, “Yeah, okay. Go.” And I am flying this OH-23, piston slapper, wooden blades, slow airspeed, 72 knots. Now, keep in mind you know, the Huey and the 58 I am flying is doing 125 plus and 72 is kind of slow. And we are the slow stuff. C-130s doing like 300 miles an hour and, you know, just about everything flies faster than we do. And I called English, told them I was 5 miles out for straight in. They said, “Okay, record at a quarter mile.” “Roger.” Well, 5 miles at 72 knots takes a little bit of time. They call me back, “You’re sure you’re landing at English?” “Affirmative.” “Be advised: we don’t have you in sight.” “Understand. Roger.” “Report quarter mile. Landing gear down and locked. Guns cold. Roger.” I keep plodding along. Finally, they called me back. “Sundown, this is English. You that egg beater on the deck?” “That’s affirmative. By the way, the skids are down and welded. 45 is on safety and magazine is out.” And I hear them key up the mic and all I can hear is laughing and guffawing. I �am a quarter mile for landing. And I am 72 knot. You doing 72 knots, quarter mile don’t last long. Okay. I can hear them key up the mic again. All I hear is laughing. They’re so broke up they can’t clear me for landing. I finally said, “This is sundown 13. If I am clear for landing, can you break squelch twice?” I hear click, click. (01:48:25) Veteran: They couldn’t talk to me. They were just busted up because…I don’t know what they thought I had but yeah, my landing gear is rather down and welded. The only gun I got is my 45 and my survival vest and magazines out, safety is on. They just cracked up. Another time, I came in and I was landing at Pleiku airbase. And normally we parallel the runway and we don’t even take the taxi way. We go down the grass and alongside the runway and parallel the runway. And down there, they had a wind sock and some other stuff. And if there is traffic coming in and out, they’d have us hold right there. It’s right across the runway from the main terminal. Then they’d have us turn and we basically hover across that to the main terminal to set down. And I had dropped off whatever I came in for and I was calling for clearance to depart. Well, he’s giving me clearance to tail backwards. Instead of telling me to hover back out and go, he’s clearing me to go right over the top of the tower. And this is during the Vietnamization Project. And they’re trying to get the Vietnamese to do all the stuff. So, I ask him to repeat the departure instructions. He gives me the same instructions and then he’s a little brisk with me and he says, “If you can’t make immediate departure, hold flat pitch C-130 on landing row.” “Roger. On the go.” And I made max performance take off, went straight up and went right over the top of the tower. Cleared top of the tower by, I don’t know, 3-4 feet because I am not…And I am not worried about it because right behind them on the Air Force base is 71st Evac and I know how to low level out of there and clear their area and the whole bit. And I no more than cleared the tower �and was getting into 71st evacc’s area and he’s got to clear me for QSYR frequency change. (01:50:23) Veteran: And he comes back and he says, “Sundown, this is Pleiku tower. In the future, if I gave you that instructions, you can disregard.” Another time I was down at Phù Cát and that’s on the coast down by Qui Nhơn. And we had, again, why they were down there I don’t know, but we had down there 2nd of the 72nd and they had 8 inches and 175s, big guns, sitting right on the edge of the Air Force base. And I am going into there but you got to call the Air Force base and tell them because you are under their control zone. I am flying underneath them. And as I am coming in to land, I hear the tower, and this is Vietnamese, clearing L-19 Bird Dog to take off on runway, say 1-8, and he clears the C-130 to take off 3-6. That’s opposite ends of the same runway. So, somebody calls the tower and advises them they had cleared aircraft to take off on the runway, opposite ways. And the tower comes back and goes, “Oh. You all be careful out there. You hear?” So, the C-130 calls the L-19 and says, “You take off.” So, he takes off because his prop wash and that is not going to cause the C-130 any difficulty when he takes off afterwards. But it was funny because just one of those things that happened and… Interviewer: Okay. Now, was Phù Cát, was that—there is a place where there was like an orphanage that you went to? Was that there or Vung Tau? Or…? Veteran: No, there was a…Down at Phù Cát, on the South China Sea, it was south of Phù Cát, there was a leper colony we used to go to with the chaplains. And that was one of those places like Vung Tau that was really strange because you got down there and while we left somebody with the aircraft, we never had to really worry about it. Matter of fact, we took a bathing suit and went swimming in the South China Sea because it was right on the water’s edge and we’d go swimming. (01:52:22) �Veteran: It was run by the Catholic church and it was a place where you could literally eat off the floor. I mean, I never saw a place, before or since, that was as stark or as clean or as sparkly or as whatever. And we went down there, oh maybe 2-3 times a month. I took the chaplains down there. You know, the first time you go down, you’re real skeptical about it because you’re not at a military base and you are kind of in the middle of nowhere and you’re kind of whatever. You got a long ways you can see down the beach. And I mean, it was in a location where you weren’t really worried about getting surprised right away. And they never had any trouble with the Viet Cong and it was a place where yeah, you let down your guard but you don’t want to let down too far. If that makes sense to you? But no, we’d take our bathing suits down there and go swimming and that’s the only place, other than going for church conferences down there, that I remember actually swimming. We actually had a swimming pool that they completed while I was there at 52nd group headquarters. And even in those 23 days when I was just sitting around, I didn’t go swimming. I mean, I don’t know why. But just didn’t. Interviewer: Okay. Church conferences? Was this with the chaplains or you or what was that? Veteran: Well, I’m a Mormon and the church has quite a bit of pull. And we had an in-service conference quarterly and if we wanted to go, they had to let you go. But they’re not—they—your commanders and the people you—aren’t going to tell you. So, the chaplains come back to me and they said, “You’re LDS?” I says, “Yeah, I am LDS.” Latter Day Saint. The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So, we go by LDS. And he says, “You’re LDS.” I says, “Yeah.” He says, “Here, you might want to see this.” And I took it. “Oh!” And this was down at Cam Ranh Bay. And he says, “You want to go?” “Yeah.” (01:54:31) �Veteran: Well, I let my group leader know and then I had an aircraft at my disposal for one whole day to bring in other LDS I knew that were out at outer bases that wanted to go. Because if they wanted to go, they could go. And I am going out visiting them and I take these commanders out. And matter of fact, the joke was with some of these commanders: if we need him, we know what bunker he is in. Because I would go visit some of the other church members that was out there. And I’d fly them in. We had a C-130 that would fly us down to Cam Ranh Bay, sit on the tarmac and wait for us. And we’d spend that night and the next day and then that evening, we’d come back. And C-130s. They were that respectful. But you got this dual thing going on again because they got to let you go but they don’t want to let you go. I mean, when I was in basic and AIT and all that other stuff, I’d want to go to church services and usually they weren’t on base. And our church, we have sacrament service and then you have Sunday school, and then we have priesthood, so it is 3 hours. And then you got to travel there and you got to travel back and I’d get back and most other Protestant services or Catholic services is maybe an hour. And you got travel time back. So, I can’t prove I got more KP and more guard duty than other people but I have my deep suspicions because they didn’t want to believe me. But not only that, I don’t know if I mentioned to you before but one of my R and Rs I took in conjunction with an area for a serviceman’s conference, which ended up being held at the base of Mount Fuji. (01:56:05) Veteran: And I went there to that conference and then spent the rest of my R and R. That time I went down to Osaka, Japan. The World’s Fair was at Osaka. And it was nice enough to go with a couple other church members so I ain’t worried about some guy trying to bring a gal into our hotel room in the middle of the night. And had that happen before. You know, you share a room with lieutenant so-and-so and in the middle of the night, you got extra company. Didn’t have to �worry about stuff like that. It was kind of nice. So, went down there and did that but again, that was something if you wanted to go, they had to set up your R and Rs and make room for you so you could go. But they weren’t telling you. I mean, you had to know about it. Because I was flying the chaplains, because my guys weren’t interested, I had insight to some of that stuff. Interviewer: Okay. Now, that gets me into a couple other questions. One of them is where would you take the chaplains to or what would they be doing? Veteran: Anything and everything. I mentioned firebase 6 before where we brought in a bulldozer and leveled off the top. Took them up to firebase 6. Matter of fact, that runs into another story down there. That day that I am referring to, one of the guys came out and says, “Can I take the chaplains?” I am looking at him going, “Yeah, what’s up?” “Well, they ain’t got nothing for me to do. I want the flight time.” “Okay.” So, he took my aircraft and he took the chaplains and he went up to firebase 6 with them. And he’s up there for a while and firebase 6 is at the top of this mountain. So, the cottonfield from these clouds ended up below. And he’s looking at the weather and he goes, “This ain’t good.” So, he goes over to the Protestant chaplain and he says to him, he says, “If we don’t leave here before long, you’re going to have a long time to do whatever you want.” He says, “The weather is changing and we got to go.” Protestant chaplain says, “Okay, go start up the aircraft. I will tell Father.” So, he goes over and he starts up the aircraft and the Protestant chaplain comes and they’re waiting and they’re waiting and Father ain’t coming right away. And finally, Father comes and he’s got a shawl over his neck and a chalice under his arm and some other stuff and you can tell he didn’t put everything back in his box he’s got that he travels with. And he’s coming back. He’s sets them down, puts on his headphones, “Let’s go before the Lord finds out what I did to the mass.” (01:58:27) �Veteran: So, they leave and they’re coming back to our base and we had a One-Eyed Charlie. And a One-Eyed Charlie is a guy that the Viet Cong are pressing into service and they would give him some dilapidated gun and they’d give him a couple rounds of ammunition and they tell him, “Shoot it at the Americans.” And they would tell him where to go and he would find an empty can and he’d put his two empty cartridges in there that he fired at the Americans and there’d be two live ones in there and that’s for him to shoot at the next day. And they’d kind of keep an eye on him that way and he’s got to shoot at people. Well, if you got one and you know what he is, you don’t return fire. They might get somebody that can actually shoot. Okay. So, we had a One-Eyed Charlie on our base. And if you get anybody landing, you tell them you got a One-Eyed Charlie and you—you know. And today he hasn’t done his duty. So, you kind of know what’s going on. Well, all the while I was there, the only aircraft you ever hit was the one coming back in with the chaplains. And there’s a mic button on the floor and you have one mic boom. You have a control panel that determines what radios you hear and which ones you transmit on. And for some reason, the mic that the Catholic chaplain had was set on FM or fox mic and he hit the button. Course, everybody in the aircraft were monitoring that so they can hear. But he’s also going to now transmit to the whole world. And the Protestant chaplain keyed up the mic and looked at the Catholic chaplain and he says, “The Lord found out.” They are sitting on the gas tank in the back and they have a bullet proof ceramic plate on top of it. And that’s where the rounds went: into the fuel tank back. Both rounds hit the fuel tank. And it’s a self-sealing tank so it dripped a little bit afterwards but didn’t really leak. Matter of act, they came over there with a crane and a flatbed and picked it up and out it on and took it over to the placed to change the tank and that. But that’s…Now, he just did this over the air on a frequency we use for our lamding field. So, for the next month or two, you get an aircraft coming through �and they’re coming out of Pleiku, and they’re coming up our way and they’d call, “Artillery Hill, this is gunslinger 55. We’ll be coming through your control zone, going up to Con Toon. Are we clear?” (02:00:46) Veteran: “Gunslinger, this is Artillery Hill. Guns are cold and we have nothing on the field. Feel free.” So, we are down, we got no traffic on our airfield. And the guns on top of the hill aren’t shooting anywhere. Do your thing, you know? And then they’d come back, “By the way, what’d the Lord find out?” And we’d get that comment for about a month or two afterwards. Interviewer: Alright. Let’s see…I guess you had some—I guess some more things that sort of have to do with sort of civilians and things. You’ve got one with…Let’s see. Was their kids of the rice paddies? Or…? Veteran: I was going up to Ben Het. And a lot of times when you go into a base, you don’t go in and just land. You’d go up and you’d circle the base first. And then some of the bases, if the place is hot enough or whatever, we’d literally do a little corkscrew in instead of doing a long, shallow landing. And this day I came in and I circled the base and the Montagnard kids were ou on the rice paddies and—well, you know they’re Montagnard kids. First off, nobody else is up there but, you know, not a stitch on and they got these long sticks. And they’re like tapping the rice paddy dikes, like that. And what in the world are they doing? Now, I have seen the little kids before throw a ball into a minefield and have their dog go get the ball and they walk where the dog went. They want to go somewhere and this minefield is in the way. And these kids just grow up with that. (02:02:28) Veteran: And I was thinking, “Mines on the—but they’re too close with the stick…” and everything I could think of wasn’t making any sense. So, what are they doing? And I got in there �and I said something to the special forces that are on this base. And he says, “Oh, they’re hunting for rats.” I says, “They’re what?” He says, “They are hunting for rats.” And he says, “When a rat runs, if they stir up a rat in the rice paddy dike, they’ll beat it with that stick and they’ll pick it up and pull the skin apart at the inside of the back legs and they’ll eat it raw out there on the rice paddy dike. Won’t bring it back.” I said, “You’ve got to be kidding me.” He says, “No.” well, I remember another time, before this, I had been on the same base and I was at the mess hall and I am looking out the back door and these Montagnard kids are all standing back there. But they’re a good distance away from the mess hall where there is a walkway. And unlike the kids on the street corner here, they’re not grab assing and fooling around and joking and stuff, they’re just standing there like there is something really special to see at the mess hall. And I keep looking at them like what are they doing? So, finally I said something to the special forces guy in the mess hall. I says, “What’s with the kids? What’s going on?” “Oh, them? Here, I’ll show you.” He walks out the back of the mess hall with me and he said something to them in Montagnard and all you saw was butts and legs sticking out of trash cans. They were sitting there waiting for permission to get into the trash. My wife earlier was talking with us and I made the comment that while rioting through some of the Vietnamese villages and stuff where I went, I—on several occasions—I had my chauffer, for lack of a better term, keep asking me, “You got your watch?” “Yeah.” He’d say, “You got your watch?” “Yeah.” I finally asked him, I said, “What’s with this?” He said, “While you slow down, giving the kids candy,” he says, “they’ll take the watch off your arm.” I go, “Oh, okay.” (02:04:36) Veteran: The Montagnards were just the reverse. We could literally drive a jeep into the middle of one of their villages and leave it. I mean, we’d lose the gas can driving through these Vietnamese villages off the back of the jeep. They used to take the gas can off before we went �through and put it on the inside. Slow down, they’d take the gas can out of the jeep. Anyway, you drive one into a Montagnard village, you could leave it; come back a month later it’s sitting—they may have washed it and polished it. But it’s still sitting there and nothing is removed. You tell them they can have it and before you’re through talking, the thing will be totally disassembled and gone. They know it belongs to somebody. It ain’t theirs, they don’t touch it. I’ve seen them injured and there’s an American sitting next to them and it’s a monsoon and he’s shaking. And I’ve seen injured Montagnards lean up against the American to help keep him warm. Never asked. Never nothing. And they’re hurting. I’ve seen that—I’ve seen aircraft that, well, I mentioned going down to the la Drang Valley one day and I was the lead aircraft, a bunch of them behind me and they got raked with 50 caliber fire. And I followed them all over to the base and that. And we are trying to get guys that are injured off the aircraft and that and there is only…MASH is nice when everybody comes out but when you got 4 or 5 aircraft all trying to land and people on them and you’re trying to get them all off and…One Montagnard, his jaw was broken off. I mean, it’s hanging down like a waddle on a turkey. He ain’t even moaning. And he was more interested in trying to help a couple of his other brothers and…I don’t know. I just…Big difference. (02:06:29) Interviewer: Alright. Well, you’ve also got something in here about a particular boy being interested in your helicopter. Was that a Montagnard or Vietnamese? Veteran: It was a Montagnard kid and where he got a shirt from, I don’t know. And I’ve got a couple pictures of him and I had to crop them because from, you know, waist down he ain’t got a thing on but he’s got a little shirt with short sleeves. An he come out and he started off—he’d walk up to the edge of the helipad—and he’d just sit there and look at the aircraft. And a good share of the time when I went to that one, they wouldn’t have me go outside and that and I’d just �sit on the pad. So, I wouldn’t tie down the rotor blades, I wouldn’t do anything. And I’d normally have a book of scripture or a book I wanted to read in the lower part of my flight suit and I’d pull it out and I’d sit there and read a little bit. And this kid would come out and I’d be watching him because somebody is around the helipad. And I’d watch him. And the same kid and he’d come out and he’d just stand there and watch. Well, I’d come out and he’d just sit and look at the— he’d look at my tail rotor for an hour. I don’t know what…One day, I picked him up and I put him in the aircraft. And he’s sitting right there looking at everything and I put his hand on the stick. He’s looking all over. I never saw anybody with such excitement over so little. Just my— and I’ve got a picture of the boy. Like I said, I had to crop it because waist down, not a stich on, just a shirt. Bare feet, no hat, no nothing. Little ragamuffin. And I don’t know his name. don’t know whatever happened to him. Don’t even know if he survived through, you know, through the siege. (02:08:18) Interviewer: Okay. One other piece here. Let’s see, you—when I guess at Phù Cát or where there was an orphanage, there was also a prison camp? Veteran: Oh, in Pleiku. Interviewer: Oh, well that was in Pleiku. Okay. Veteran: There were a couple orphanages we worked with but there was one in Pleiku. And right next to the orphanage, there was a POW camp. And one night, they attacked the POW camp and tried to get their people freed. Nobody would leave. Couple nights later there was another attack except they mortared the POW camp and we were afraid because we were—you know, you’re at your base and you’re looking out and it’s a couple miles away and thought they were hitting the orphanage. We were afraid they were going to hit—well, when you play with mortars, you �always joke it’s one over, one under, and you bracket it and then you hit it. And it’s crazier than artillery because, well, all the mortars move around. And unless it’s danger close, you don’t normally start way out and walk it in. And they didn’t touch the orphanage. I don’t know how or why or if it was intentional or just flat dumb luck or…But they didn’t touch the orphanage. But that was strange. I mean, they attacked the POW camp, they got inside, and they couldn’t get their own people to run away. So much for prisoner of war camp and your ideas of ‘stuff like that.” They wouldn’t leave. Interviewer: And not necessarily dedicated to the communist revolution either at that point. (02:10:04) Veteran: I don’t know. I—you know, I mentioned earlier that since then I have taken a number of college classes and Far East history and other stuff. And I do believe that our government read the thing entirely wrong. I don’t think it had…Anyway, for the little guy fighting, you know, if you talk to the North and South, the old story is the Northern asks the Southern, “What are you fighting for?” because most of the guys from the South that fought in the Civil War, barefoot and poor, and they didn’t own any slaves. He says, “I am fighting for my rights.” He says, “I’m fighting because you’re down here.” And I think most of the Vietnamese didn’t understand what the war was about any more than the American—I didn’t. And I think most of them were fighting because of home or whatever. I know the Vietnamese that were fighting on the south side that were up where I am at were there predominantly because the judge gave them an opportunity to go to war or go to jail. And I know the ones that my brother-in-law fought with down in around Saigon, they lived down there and family and—we are talking full time soldiers yet, though. And he says they were very good and very—and the ones I was fighting with, you know, that I was dealing with for the most part up around Pleiku were not. Same war, same �people. I think most of the Vietnamese were fighting for unification and they wanted Vietnam together. One Vietnam. They didn’t want French rule, they didn’t want American rule. They didn’t want any help, they wanted self-rule. They wanted—this is our country, leave us alone. And I think that’s what they were—and I think that’s probably part of what went on here. You’re talking about being dedicated to communism? I don’t think they could tell you what a communist was, much less spell it. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Another note here that we have: King Bees and betel nut? Veteran: Well, that’s not all connected but… Interviewer: Two different things. Alright. Veteran: Yeah. We were talking about them not fighting and going out to the field and getting caught, in trouble and that. King Bees was a CH-34 which is—if you think of the old Marine helicopter you see in Vietnam—has a rotating motor down in the corner. It has rounded front piece down. Pilots were way above the cargo compartment. King Bees had 34s and they were Vietnamese. And on several occasions, we had run ins with King Bees and none of them were anything I would want to write home about. And I remember one night, they had—well, it was daytime when they went up—they went up and inserted Vietnamese. (02:12:42) Veteran: Along with our FO, our foreign observer. They put them in and they got into heavy contact and they needed to be extracted. And they were sending a bunch of Hueys up to extract them. And I was heading up that way and I am in my 58 and the Hueys are going up in formation to go out and try to get them out. The King Bees are coming down. And we got this common freq for artillery we talked about. So, they hailed King Bees and King Bees come back on the radio. And they says, “Hey, you’re people are in trouble. Where are you guys going?” “Oh, we �go home. Night time. We go home now.” Their people were in contact and we were going up to snatch South Vietnamese out and these guys are going home. Another time, they were down at Pleiku airbase and I mentioned how we had to cross the runway to get in and out of there, and there was a King Bee sitting on the VIP pad, right in front of the tower. And he called for departure instructions. The tower told him, “Hold flat pitch. C-130 on landing row.” And he says, “My country: I go now.” And he just picked up and went right across the runway. C-130 on—that was landing—he aborted his landing and gunned it and…You know, like a touch and go and went around again and came back. I am going, “Oh, you got to be kidding me.” (02:14:18) Veteran: It was just…Betel nut. You know what betel nut is? Interviewer: I do. Veteran: Yeah, very few people here do. I gather it was a bit addictive. Bit of a mild narcotic, like in Iraq, they have trouble with cot. There were a number in things in Vietnam that were easy to get. None of our guys played with betel nut but every once in a while, you’d get a Mamasan with some and she’d smile at you and her teeth would be all absolutely black. Betel nut would stain their teeth. And they’d chew betel nut and it’s just something that you never see here but if you’re seeing stuff about Vietnam, and you see a group, you’re going to get somebody in there that’s got all them black teeth. And that’s betel nut. That’s… Interviewer: Alright, that was just a…And then you’ve also got something in here about Mamasan and a tiger? Veteran: Yeah. I don’t even remember which base that was. Mamasan…Well, we talk about a housing shortage here that, you know…A big house may be 8-foot square for the Montagnards. �And they built them on stilts. And then you have a ladder you put down. And 8x8 probably was a multi-generational domicile. And one of Mamasan’s duties would be to bring in the ladder at night. And for whatever reason, Mamasan didn’t bring in the ladder. And in the middle of the night, a tiger walked up the ladder and bit Mamasan in the arm and actually bit the arm off. She took the arm out of the tiger’s mouth and pulled it away, beat the tiger off, pulled the ladder in. The next morning, walks 7 miles into a Montagnard village. (02:16:20) Interviewer: Wow. Veteran: Or, into special forces camp from her village. They had me med-evacc her to 71st evacc hospital. Couple days later, they asked me to pick her up and bring her back out to the Montagnard village and I did. She walked then back out to her village and sat there for most of the day. Nobody would talk to her. They thought she was an evil spirit. If you get a scratch in the jungle, like from a rose bush, in an hour it will be a pus trap. And I asked the doctor at 71st evacc hospital, I says, “How come she didn’t just flat bleed to death?” Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And he looked at me and he says, “You would. I would.” He says, “They don’t have any fat.” He says, “Her muscles all contracted and then acted like a tourniquet.” And they had to debris it and whatever and put—she walked, it was every other day or every third day, 7 miles back to the special forces camp to have her dressing changed and looked at. Interviewer: Wow. Veteran: And walked back to her village. But that…You talk about differences. You know, people today are complaining about Obamacare and healthcare, you see them parading it’s a right and stuff…I do genealogy and I can tell you that my parents started getting healthcare �because of the unions. And prior to that, nobody had insurance. Doctors did house calls. They did house calls when I was a kid. We have no concept how well we live, how well things are. I was sitting in a master’s class, economics, and the gentleman sitting next to me was a retired colonel. Army engineer. (02:18:17) Veteran: And somebody said something about poor in this country. And he and I said, “We don’t have any poor in this country.” 2/3 of the class was black and 2/3 of the class was female. And the class went ballistic. And the prof came back to the two of us and says, “Two of yous want to explain?” I says, “Yeah. Our poor has transportation. Our poor has housing with electricity, some of them have air conditioning, almost all of them have tvs, they have indoor plumbing, they have…You know, they may not have insurance, they can go to any emergency room to get healthcare.” I says, “They live better than the top 10% do in any third world country I have ever been in. We have relative poor: they’re poor relative to the rest of this. I’ll give you that. But poor? No.” Interviewer: Okay. Now, one other, actually, dimension of this sort of cultural difference and so forth. We talked about R and Rs. You had the one when you went to Japan. Where else did you go? Veteran: I went to the Philippines and that was in conjunction to something else too. And that was early in my stay in Vietnam. I’ve always had an interest in outdoor survival. Backpacking, I mountain climb. I cross country ski. But when I cross country ski, I take my day pack with me and I don’t come back for a couple days. They sent me to the Philippines to go through jungle environmental survival training at Subic Bay. By the way, it’s still there. (02:20:06) �Veteran: Subic Bay isn’t. and if you look up J.E.S.T.—J-E-S-T—Jungle Environmental Survival Training. The same Montagnards are running it. Not the same Montagnards—the same Negritos are running it in the same place. And doing the same thing for civilians and anybody that wants to go. And I found that fascinating. I was doing some research the other day on the computer but…We went there and 3 days and then my R and R followed that so, I don’t know, I ended up with somewhere between 8-10 days they cut my orders for because I had my 5 day R and R in conjunction with jungle school and travel and housing and everything else. So, I went there and that was interesting. We were told to bring $2.50 and we figured that was just for meals. Everybody I ran into was an officer that was going to the school and we got there. They had us meet in Subic Bay. Told us when and where. Got aboard a deuce and a half. They put down the side curtains. And they drove us—and you could tell by the road, they got out of the main base and we were on a gravel road and it wasn’t really well taken care of. And dust started to seep in a little bit. Got where we were going, there was this big Quonset hut and we got out and went in the Quonset hut. And we had really professional presentation for the morning and into part of the afternoon but we never had lunch. And then they finally said, “Anybody hungry?” Duh. So, they had us get back abord the deuce and a half, side curtains down, drove us off. Vehicle stopped and they call off 4 names. Now, I am real suspicious. Deuce and a half is full. Why do they only want 4 of us? They’re going to feed us, right? So, the 4 of us get out and the deuce and a half leaves. And we are looking around and it’s a triple canopy jungle and there’s just this two track. And as the truck finally clears, here is standing a little native. (02:22:21) Veteran: And he’s got 4 bolo machetes in a wooden sheath with about 6-feet of parachute cord on it. And he said, “$2.50, please.” Okay, we cough up $2.50. He shows us how to tie it around our waist and it hangs real nice on one side. He draws his, cuts a piece of dry bamboo, splits it �down, puts a little V in it, takes another piece and starts playing it like a violin. He starts a fire. And he’s got a green joint of bamboo, splits that one off, puts a bamboo leaf over top, takes some rice out of his pocket and puts it in the joint, bamboo leaf, puts it in the fire. In about 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes at the most that we are all—from the time we are dropped off—he’s taking another piece of bamboo and splitting it lengthwise and bamboo has these joints in it, you know, and he’s splitting it sideways and it made like a little trough. And he’s opening up this thing and he’s putting some rice and other stuff and he goes…So, we sit down there and we are eating. Don’t know what we are eating. Rice I know, the rest I don’t know. So, we are eating. And when we get through eating, he goes like this and he says…Then he speaks, guy actually can speak and he speaks English. He says, “What you see?” Well…You know, pilots aren’t usually off heo farm. So, he gets—we are in sambo country. We are in tiger country. He gets some strange answers. And then he looks at us and he points again and he says, “Look again. You stand in world’s largest grocery store. Only reason man starve out here is no read packaging labels.” And for the next three and a half days, everything we wanted was prepared. (02:24:14) Veteran: Everything. We had…At one point—well, the first day, he’s showing us medicine. Second day, he’s showing us water. I got that out of order: first day was medicine or water, second day was plants, third day he is showing us how to catch animals. And then the next day we were picked up early in the morning and taken back to base. And culture differences again. I mean, when we are doing the animals, he’s upset with us that we want to catch them by the neck; they’ll be dead. He says, “Catch them by the leg. Tie them with a string. Give them water. Eat them when you’re ready. Otherwise, famine or feast.” He says, “Dumb. Dumb.” First day, he’s showing us where to find water and medicine. One of the guys picked up a piece of bamboo and he struck it with his machete and it split. And the edge of bamboo, when it splits like that is very �sharp. And he laid the palm of his hand wide open. Well, I am a wilderness EMT and I am looking at that and I am thinking how many stitches. And like I said, a scratch is a pus track. And I am figuring this guy is out of here. Ain’t no way he’s going to perform for the next couple days in the jungle with us with a cut in his palm like that. And I mean, it is clear through the skin. I mean it is a good cut. The Negrito goes over to a little tree and uses the knife down by the hilt and just scrapes it and ends up with what looks like kind of a Brillo pad. Puts it in his hand and says, “Hold it.” And he goes over and he pulls some leaves off another one and it milks up on the end like a milkweed. Takes that little Brillo pad out and he paints it with the sap. I noticed by this time the wound is over ¾ of the way closed. Puts the bark back. He says, “Hold it.” It never opened up, it never got infected. When we got back to base, I went with this guy over to the H station and they’re looking at it, says, “What’s the crap you got in there?” Because by now it is scabbed over some and that. And he says, “Well I don’t know. Negritos did that.” “Oh, you’re with the J.E.S.T. program?” “Yeah.” “They paint it with that white stuff?” We says, “Yeah.” He says, “You know, we are testing that stuff in the lab back here. It’s got the same medicinal effects as iodine. We are trying to figure out how much to use to purify water.” We are going, “What??” (02:26:45) Veteran: He says, “Don’t know what to do with it.” He says, “If it opens up, come back. Anything we do now would be secondary injury.” He says, “it’s closed. It ain’t going to open.” I am going whoa…Okay. Last night we were out, the Negrito got together somehow out there in the middle of nowhere—of course, these guys…I mean, they grew up out there. This is their thing. Come to find out, the guys we were with have got college degrees. But you know, you wouldn’t—I mean, they were wearing fatigues. Jungle fatigues. A couple of them had some sort of footwear on. Some of them were barefoot. If they had anything on their back, it was smaller �than a bookbag. And their machete. And I mean, we went—we didn’t go without anything. I mean, at one point the guys were swimming in a bend in the river and they were commenting how yeah they weren’t dirty but they felt sticky and what…Negrito goes over and he cuts this vine and it was all twisted. And he says, “Get a rock and pound it flat.” So, we get two rocks, pound this thing flat. He says, “Go wash like washrag.” He did the right—and it lathered up like it was detergent. Washed with it, couldn’t—this is wild. Getting all clean. Just…So, the last night all these guys kind of start getting together. And everybody that’s in the class ended up in the same campground. And we found out top of the hill right there is where the deuce and a half had a road again. We went out the next day. (02:28:22) Veteran: But that night, we all got together and they said, “You know, we know you are going back to combat. Anything you guys want to know?” And we says, “Well, yeah. Anything you can’t get for us here?” I mean, we are mesmerized. I mean, the stuff in medicine, where to find water…I mean, they were showing us a number of plants that all we had to do was cut them and water ran out of them. And it’s purified. We were just mesmerized with everything that was going on. And you can’t absorb it fast enough. But a lot of it’s the same. I mean, if you see a dandelion here, it’s a dandelion there. It may be bigger but it’s still a dandelion. So, some of this stuff washes over. And some of that I picked up real easy. Well, we are sitting around this campfire and ask him these things and he says, “Two things no can get.” We says, “Okay.” “No San Miguel tree.” Well, San Miguel is Philippine beer. He is talking about no Coors, no Budweiser, no Falstaff, you know. “No San Miguel tree. And no sex tree.” But other than that, anything and everything we wanted out there. I mean, it was just unbelievable the stuff that if I sit and think about, I’ll think of some more examples of stuff they come up with. But it was just…We wanted for literally nothing. Matter of fact, it was strange. I woke up the morning they �were going to take us out. We had learned to take a piece of bamboo and you hit it with your machete to the outside. You pull that little piece of wood out. Bamboo joints about a third full of water and it’s already purified. And we’d put some fresh water prawns in there and we would put some palm heart in there and some other things and then you put this piece of wood back in, upside down. And you put it in the fire. It acts like a pressure cooker. (02:30:15) Veteran: The water only gets so hot. The little piece of wood comes up and you see some steam come out. And when steam don’t come out anymore, you know everything that is in there is cooked. And I had one of these I had saved. And I woke up and it had rained real hard the night before and we were starting to get into the monsoons. And I had a rock that was probably 5 foot high. And we were near a crick and the crick had come up and completely surrounded my rock but it hadn’t gotten up to the top of me. And I had slept with my legs drawn up in my chest with my poncho over me and I had this joint. When I woke up in the morning, I hit that joint. I flipped it on the side and I am eating a little rice and palm heart and some prawns and thinking life just don’t get any better than this. And they took us back to base and then I realized this is Thanksgiving. So, we went and showered because we had been, you know, several days in the same clothes and that. Showered and changed clothes and went down to the BOQ. And they had table after table after table laid out with roast beef and ham and turkey and chicken and everything you could think of laid out. And I went through and the contrast, again. Talking about poor and talking about the way we live and…Matter of fact, just recently I was listening to a documentary and the guy was making the comment, and I never thought about it at the time and I never thought about it causing a problem, but he says part of the problem our troops had with the Vietnamese that we were working with was the difference in life standards in our culture. And this idea of poor and the way we lived and our housing and their housing and what we ate and �the way they ate. And coming back out of the field and thinking I was living like a king and then walking back for…And a Fourth of July don’t go by that I don’t think about the way the Montagnards lived and the way the Negritos lived and the way the Vietnamese lived. And just so thankful that this country—and we have so much excess that we don’t even think it’s excess. I mean, it just… (02:32:32) Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you have another R and R in there? Or actually, before we get to that actually—so, you go back, you’re at Subic Bay, you have Thanksgiving dinner and so forth but did you then have a few days at Subic Bay before you left? Or…? Veteran: Actually, we flew into Clark. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then we were overland to Subic. That was a shocking experience too. You’ve been in the military long enough, especially in combat, you learn to sleep whenever you get a chance to sleep and you learn to eat even if you’re not hungry, even when there is a chance to eat, because we don’t know what’s going to happen. You don’t know when you’re going to be able to get the next meal or drink of water or whatever. And it was night and we got aboard this bus. Army bus, typical gray-blue kind of looking thing. And they’re going to take us to the next place and of course this is the Philippines and we came out of Vietnam so we don’t have our guns. We don’t have our survival vests. We don’t have anything like that. And you got whatever you’re traveling with, whether it’s a B-4 bag or small duffel or whatever you’re traveling with. And we get aboard the bus and we are traveling and I am asleep. And the bus comes to a stop and I thought oh, we are where we are going. And I look up and there’s guys coming on the bus in �some sort of military uniform. And if I remember right, it was a grayish blue uniform. It wasn’t one of ours. Automatic weapons. And I am feeling for my sidearm. (02:34:07) Veteran: We were at a checkpoint and they vary them and move them around but the Philippines were having trouble with Huks at the time. And they were coming aboard to make sure that these were all Americans on and this hadn’t been a hijacked bus and there weren’t Huks aboard the bus. And they just kind of walked down, looked around, and walked off and we were on our way. But that was a few tense—and I could see it in the eyes of some of the other guys that were there on the bus too. Now, whether they were out of Vietnam or where they were, I don’t know. But yeah, that was different. Yeah, I had 5 days. Subic Bay was interesting. They had a great big officers club and it was divided: sort of an upstairs, downstairs thing. And the upstairs is very formal and it was very semi-circular and it kept going down steps like you have at somebody’s home for a fire place. But everything in front of you is glass and you can see the whole bay. And there was a carrier group in there at that time, amongst other things, and you could see them all out in the bay. And the lights are down so the outside is lit up and all the way at the bottom of this set up—now, these are all tables on these tiers. And at the bottom is a dance floor and a piano and a singer comes out from time to time. And several of us guys would go down close to the piano and sit down there. And we’d request songs. And that was strange. People just weren’t doing that. And we finally got a glass and out it on the piano and started stuffing bills in it. That was strange; nobody was doing that. And we asked the gal there to sing a couple songs. She didn’t know them. And the last night we were there, she knew it was going to be our last night. She got her girlfriend to come over from the NCO club to sing the songs we’d requested that she didn’t know. (02:36:17) �Veteran: And then she said that she wanted to do a dedication and that her brothers were leaving, referring to us. And she started to try and sing her song and got partway through, had to put the mic down. She couldn’t finish. She turned around and collected herself and turned around and tried 3 times. And then just walked away. We never got that response home. Never got it anywhere. But there…I mentioned you had the upstairs/downstairs. And if you went outside and you went down below, this was on the side of a hill, down below they had a stag bar. And just the opposite, there was no glass. It had a quarter inch hardware cloth on the wall and then mosquito netting on the outside of the hardware cloth. And you walk inside and I think there were two tables and I don’t remember how many stools but there couldn’t have been more than 4 stools in the entire place. But there were a couple tables and they were pillar type where you stand up by. And a bar. And down there there was a big open patio and there was a swimming pool out there. And at night nobody was using the swimming pool but there were tracks that came from that bar, went across that patio and went to the swimming pool. And inside they had ‘last chance’—big plaque on the wall—‘last chance’ and there were names on it. And they had this car and it was inside the bar and they’d open this door, slide the curtains back, whatever, and in this car kind of looked like a bullet pointed on both ends. And you could sit in the car and there was this seat and they had a lever and when you pulled the lever, it dropped a hook. And just before the pool there was a cable. And on both sides of the cable, there was a ramp coming up to that cable. (02:38:32) Veteran: You get in the car and they would pump up the air pressure and when the guage read a certain point they would say, “You ready?” “Ready.” They’d fire the car and they’d go down the track and you could drop the hook to catch the cable and if you didn’t, you went in the swimming pool. �Interviewer: Alright, so I guess that answers the question what do you do in Subic Bay if you’re not getting yourself in trouble. Veteran: Well, at that time we had more Army aviators on the ‘last chance’ plaque than the Navy did. So, it was funny. I went out with the guys one night and they wanted me to go into town with them and I knew what they were thinking and I wasn’t really excited. They conned me into going into town and I went into town, we went to a bar. Of course, the girls descend on you then. And “Baby, you’re nice, I like you, I don’t want to marry you.” I don’t know if it was resonating but then somebody else came in the bar and she didn’t really want to be with him but he was buying her drinks. The two guys that were with me, the two gals that were with them, I says, “What’s the deal?” And they said, “Oh, he weirdo. He likes to hurt girls. He burns them with cigarettes and stuff.” And I says, “What?! Well, why doesn’t she just leave him alone?” “Oh, he buys her drinks. She’s got to stay with him.” “What?” “Well, that’s the bar rules. It’s the way things go.” Now, she wasn’t really getting a drink, she was getting tea. (02:40:05) Veteran: It looks like a drink but it is not, you know. And I got to check my drinks because I can order an orange juice and I’ll get a screwdriver. And I got to be real careful what I am getting because I don’t drink. And you tell them what you want but you don’t get it. And so finally I just said, “2” and the bartender looks at me, “2 drinks for her.” So, she had to come over and sit with me. And I kept buying her drinks until he left. And then I just told her, “Sorry babe. You know, I am not interested.” Well, they stayed there until the bar closed and the girls left with us and we are walking down the street and these guys want to take these 2 gals to the hotel and ain’t interested. These two ain’t going to go unless she goes. “Guys…Come on, you’re digging me in. I don’t want this trash.” So, we end up at the hotel. I tried getting two rooms. Can’t get two rooms so I get one room with two beds. Told her, “You stay there, me stay here. Savvy?” She �woke me up in the morning and I run her out. The following day, early in the morning, the room in my BOQ opens up. My maid is letting her in. She just sits there in the chair, watching me. And I am not indicating I am awake, I am just…Finally, I says, “What do you think you are doing?” And she apologizes to me and I didn’t get my money’s worth and she feels bad. And I am going, “What??” And I figured somebody is going to try and take me for a ride. But she ends up being a number one, genuine article. So, I used her for 2 or 3 days. She arranged to pay Mamasan so she is mine, she doesn’t go to work, she doesn’t go anywhere. And she was my guide around Subic Bay. (02:42:23) Veteran: And outside Subic, if you go up to the base, they’d have places where they had felt canvases out where you could buy carvings, you could buy stuff like that. I made some comment to her one time I wanted to buy one of them. She says, “No you don’t.” She says, “They’re crooks. I take you.” So, she got one of the jitneys and the jitney is a jeep over there and they decorate them with all sorts of big reflectors and lights and all kinds of stuff and use them like taxis. And she gets this jitney and she speaks—I don’t know what the language is—but it is not Spanish. And she is speaking to the driver and he takes me somewhere on the way back roads, I don’t know where the devil I am. And I am looking around going okay, so far she is being good to me and I trust her…And she goes in this place. And for five bucks, I bought a carving of the last supper that is this big, in multiple woods. I walked out of there wit three oil paintings and I paid five bucks. Couldn’t believe it. Another night I told her, I says, “Let’s go eat and dance somewhere.” Well, she is thinking I want to take ger back to the officer’s club. Well, they ain’t going to let her in. And so, she says, “I know the place.” And she took me some place again and it’s downstairs. And it’s like old caverns, like you think of in France and that, you know. And I am going oh, shit. And I get in there and we had surf and turf and I don’t remember what else. I �didn’t even spend $7. And I mean, it was just that way. And one day I says to her, I says, “I want to see where you live.” She looks at me funny like. I says, “You tell me you got a child.” I says, “I want to meet your family.” And she looked at me and she started to cry. She says, “I no have family.” I says, “What?” “I no have family.” She says she was a maid on the base and she…there was this specialist there, E-4 that she fell for and he said, “If you love me, you’re going to go to bed with me.” And she believed that he wanted to marry her and… (02:44:47) Veteran: She ended up with a child. And he left and went back to the states and she got left. Her family—real strict, religious—disowned her. Her daddy literally put a stone in the cemetery for her. She ain’t alive. She had this jitney take me and I don’t know where we went but it ended up being 3 or 4 floors and it’s the kind of thing you see on travel logs where you see all the balconies and all the laundry hung from side to side and all over. And we get there and the driver says something to her. And she starts a fight with the driver. And I am ready to crawl under anything to get out of the way. People are coming out on the balconies, they’re coming out on the street. I mean, they are like lining up 5 to 10 deep around this jitney and I am thinking uh-oh. I am in big trouble now, you know. And I have no clue what is going on. And she and he are in a heated yelling match. Finally, she throws some coins at him and at that point, everybody around us and in the balconies just start applauding. And her name was Amy. And I said to Amy, I says, “What’s going on?” “He tried to charge you way much. He crook. I call him crook. He insist I pay or he call police. I told him, call the Army, she didn’t care.” And she had it out with him because, you know, people over there they haggle for everything. (02:46:30) Veteran: And the Americans, the way we are, like at the front gate: I’d have paid probably somewhere between $40-$50 for the stuff I got for $5. “No,” she says, “He got paid fair. He got paid tip. Too much. Him crook.” I go whoa. And I went in this apartment complex and she had a, �I don’t know, 1 or 2-year old. And she was living with 2-3 other girls so they could afford the rent. And that was her life. And she is another person I have often wondered about what happened because Clark Air Force base the volcano took over. And then Subic we pulled out of and there is nothing there. And she has no family. She has no…And are people going to reprisal against her? I wonder about our maids in Pleiku. There was a reprisal against them because they worked for the Americans. I don’t know. Interviewer: Alright. Now, we have been running here for about 3 hours. So, I— Veteran: Do you want me to do it again? Interviewer: Well, you have other—I think what I would like to do here…I mean, we have actually worked pretty well through the list of things that we had out of Vietnam between the first session and this one. We have covered a wide range of experience and things that you had out there. And then you also mentioned that when you finally got short, your commander basically wouldn’t even let you fly. So, you had a kind of quiet time there. Veteran: Well, I think he was worried. I mean, I had done a tour and a half back to back, in country. And everybody else is there for a year, whatever. Special forces do a 6-month tour. They usually do 6-months and rotate it out and then come back and do 6-months and rotate it out. I’d been there for 18 and I had been made the executive officer of the aviation company and making all the briefings. I don’t know if he knew I flew the little girl to the Montagnard village. I don’t care if he does or not. (02:48:47) Veteran: I know he doesn’t know I snapped the LRRP patrol out. They knew something. Because I brought in and showed you they gave me the award of the Red Banana. Doesn’t mean anything to anybody before or after and nobody else will probably know. But artillery colors are �red and bananas grow predominantly in the highlands. And they had come up with this award they gave once a month from the group headquarters to the officer that they thought was the most valuable player. Like a VIP award. And they always gave it to an artillery rated officer. I am a warrant, I am not an artillery rated officer. I am not in the artillery branch. They gave it to me. I mean, I went up to the old man’s briefing like I did every morning and there were times when they gave away—gave away? Good term. They presented medals. And I have a drawer full of them because my mother rescued them out of the trash. And I don’t think anything of any of them I have got. Not a one. The award of the Red Banana? I had no clue it was coming. I had no idea what was going on. Again, it was a typical—everybody stand up, attention to orders, and he started reading it and they ordered me to the front. I had no clue. I think I was awarded it in November. I would have to look at it. (02:50:24) Veteran: But it means something. Those were the guys I worked with. Those were the guys I was accounting to, I guess. But again, it is strange because my sidekick that I mountain climb and backpack and go deer hunting with and that, he served with the First cavalry Division. And he goes to their reunions. And he says to me, “You want to join the Vietnam Helicopters Association?” “I didn’t work with those guys.” Do I go to 52nd Arty groups—or First Field Forces groups? I didn’t really work with them. I mean, I might fly a guy once and never see him again. Some of the commanders I might fly once, twice, three times a week. They might have been there 3-4 months and then they are gone. Because you got that rotation thing going on. I did come home from deer hunting one year and my wife says, “We have got a strange phone call.” Well, I was law enforcement. The only thing I could think of at the time was oh…Time to keep the scatter gun loaded and, you know, make sure the dogs taken care of. And she says, “No, no.” She says, “Told me to tell you it was Sundown 13-Alpha.” And I looked at her and I says, �“Who?” Couldn’t believe my ears. Our mechanics decided to add alpha to the end of our call signs. (02:52:04) Veteran: This was my mechanic. My mechanic again was a misfit. I guess that’s what I was. He…A little heavy. Really nice guy, real nice personality. Just didn’t fit with the other guys and he was the one they’d pick on. And—well, I’d pick on him too but he knew, you know…I mean like, we’d fly. Later on, we got some flight suits that were two-piece. They were like tanker uniforms so you had a tunic and a pair of pants. And we would tuck them in because if you didn’t and you got an aircraft fire, it acted like an entry and it would pull the fire up. And they were teasing him one night about being gay and stuff and I got to the door and I said, “Hey Mick: goodnight.” And you know, talking around. But Mick Wilson and I got along well and he became my mechanic. And I don’t care. I mean, my faith—I’ll talk about gays a minute—my faith, if you’re gay, that’s your problem. That’s the way I look at it. And I think it is. I think you got enough problems of your own. And as long as you’re not predatory and I think that your sexual conquests with the ladies or with your wife or with some other partner is your business and ought to stay your business and doesn’t belong in public. So, I don’t care. None of my business. And I tried to teach Mick to fly. That boy couldn’t get the hang of it. He tried killing me more than the Viet Cong did. And he told my wife, he says, “I extended a stay in Vietnam because your husband was the only one that would let me fly.” And Mick extended his stay—I found out about this after he did it—he extended to stay in Vietnam 6-months because I did. I went to Mick, I said, “What did you just do? It’s dumb!” I mean, he wasn’t going to get sent back that we knew of. Matter of fact, they sent him to Germany when he left there. He never did go back to Vietnam. (02:54:32) �Veteran: I said, “You don’t extend because I do! You don’t live your life the way I do because I am doing it. You’re doing it for you. You do what fits your bill. You do what floats your boat. You don’t…” You know. That bothered me for a while. When I went down to see him in Cleveland, I had talked to him on the phone, we got back together. This was 40 years later. Went down to Cleveland. He’s total disability. He had to get his—he took privately his own fat samples and sent them to a lab to have them analyzed. And he was heavily exposed to Agent Orange. He later went back by the Freedom of Information Act and got verified: they sprayed the hill in Pleiku that we lived on, 6 times while we were there. Forget the free fire zones where nothing grows for 1000 yards where they’d kill it with something. And we’re landing in that. You know, I knew I was exposed. It didn’t take a rocket scientist to tell me that some reason something isn’t growing out there in a triple canopy jungle. Spray the hill we lived on? I can remember when they did it. It had a sort of a uriney…I don’t know how to explain the smell. And I can remember them spraying and I thought they were spraying for mosquitoes. It just sort of fit. I mean, rice paddies all around our base. And I thought maybe they were spraying for mosquitoes. And they sprayed our hill for some—I have no clue why. To this day, I don’t know why. It doesn’t make any sense. Sounds like I am lying to you. He found in the Freedom of— they sprayed the hill 6 times while we were there. (02:56:23) Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And yet they’re asking him, “Do you think you were exposed?” Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. We are going to rewind back around here. So, you kind of got…So then, was he there the full time you were there? Or did they send him off after you left? �Veteran: Almost all the time I was there. I don’t recall him not being there. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I don’t recall me being there before he was or he being there after…Or me going—you know—he going home and then I go home later. I know he extended after I did so I think he stayed another month. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: But I can tell you what: he could check out the hitches on both sides of the runway. Because we’d start hovering and he’d end up on both sides of the runway before I took the aircraft away from him. He had fun. Interviewer: Alright. I think we are probably at this point kind of getting to—this is about as far as I can go effectively. I think we are going to close this off here. And if we’ve got more to cover then we get to do another session. Veteran: Well, I will talk with my wife and we will see if she comes up with something. You know, so much of it…I don’t know. I don’t live in the past. I live today. When I was on the police department, there were some guys who their whole life was when they were in high school and played football. And Vietnam was the time that I wouldn’t trade it for a million bucks. You couldn’t get me to do it again for anything. When I came home and I went to the VFW, I was there about the third time and some guy made the crack, “You’re the guys that can’t win the war.” And I grabbed him and bent him over the bar backwards. Told him he was a dumb SOB and I told him, I said, “If we are told to attack, you charge. If you’re told to retreat, you back up. You’re told to sit and hold the ground to the last man, you sit and hold the ground to the �last man. We ain’t ever lost a major battle. Politicians giving the damn war away and you’re blaming us?” And I walked out. Never been back. (02:58:32) Veteran: I went to a pow wow—I went to a pow-wow and it was in conjunction with Purple Heart Association up in White Cloud. And I know a bunch of them. My wife, while I was serving in Vietnam, was serving with Vista and she was helping to organize the American Travel Council. So, we have connections on both sides. We had taken our kids at one time up to Big Bay for a pow wow. Big Bay is north of Marquette and the road literally ends at Big Bay. And before they started the pow-wow. I am going to get choked up. They got on their PA system and they asked for all veterans to please come to the PA. Still small pow-wow. There were more of us European mongrels than Native Americans there. Short while, they came back on the PA and they said, “I didn’t ask for just Native American veterans. I know there is more veterans here. I want all the veterans to come over here.” So, I went over there. They gave me the American flag, gave us some tobacco, told us about their ceremony and why. We went out and danced around and I thought good, this is done. He then asked us to stop and face the outside of the circle. (03:00:22) Veteran: He told them we were the modern-day warriors. We were the ones that protected their freedom and their right to worship, have their pow-wows, they were wanting to thank us that much. Wanted to come out, shake our hands. They also had everybody come out. It would have been easier to fly into a hot LZ. I stood there, just…Solemnly crying. This pow-wow they did almost the same thing except they didn’t have everybody come out and shake our hand. Which is good because I couldn’t have taken it. The guy from the VFW up there was out parading with us and he was in TW stuff: light tan uniform that’s a twill—a tight weave. And I told him it was an impressive uniform. I asked him about it. He says he was with the VFW up there. And I says— �and I grew up running around through White Cloud, Fremont, Newaygo. I went to school at Ferris. I live in Muskegon. So, I dated—matter of fact, the girl I was engaged to lived in White Cloud. That’s how I ended up getting in the service. And he invited me and he told me that they met at the Senior Citizens—I don’t know what you call it—building? So, I went the first Monday of the month there and they were like 12 guys. (03:02:28) Veteran: And their talk, first thing when they got into new business, anybody needs help, they had read the statement from the VFW that we are here to support the troops, to support our vets, to support our widows and our orphans. Does anybody need help? You know, I know from being a medic and being a police officer and served in the military, they are not going to ask for help. And these guys are going down the list of people they know in their own community. There’s like 12 of them and they come up with 6 people that really need help and their group is going to be helping them. And this VFW is meeting and there is no bar. You don’t need a gas mask. There’s a couple of them that are smoking but I mean you don’t need a gas mask. They meet once a month to take care of their own and look after the rest. And this isn’t a bunch sharing old war stories or puffing chests or…Matter of fact, a bunch of them go looking to find out. And I daren’t say half of that group are Purple Hearts. Found a group I can join. Interviewer: Alright. I think that probably gives us a good spot to close this session off. So, again, thank you very much. You have had just a tremendous amount of material to share. And I hope we can arrange to get more of it in the future. But, thank you. Veteran: You’re welcome. (03:04:14) �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_AnthonyF2140V2 Title A name given to the resource Anthony, Frank (Interview transcript and video, 2 of 2), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-06-29 Description An account of the resource Frank Anthony was born in Muskegon, Michigan on February 6th, 1947. He attended college at Ferris State University after graduating from high school in 1965. He joined the military in 1967 and attended basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky in May of the same year. He then did advanced infantry training (AIT) at Fort McClellan, Alabama. After completing AIT, he continued on to the Non-Commissioned Officer Academy and became a Warrant Officer. Frank also attended ranger/special forces training at Fort Benning, Georgia. He was participating in long-range recon school when his request to go to flight school was accepted. He went to flight school in 1968, which lasted for 9 months. He arrived in Vietnam in the middle of 1969. In Vietnam, he was the Safety Officer for a short period of time before becoming the Executive Officer of the Aviation Company, all the while working as a helicopter pilot. He was a part of the 52nd artillery division located in Pleiku, Vietnam. He flew a variety of helicopters while stationed in Vietnam. Frank was involved in several different skirmishes during his time in Vietnam, including the incursion into Cambodia. Frank also participated in jungle environmental survival training in Subic Bay, Philippines while on R and R. He completed a tour and a half before he left Vietnam on December 23rd, 1970. While in the military, Frank received numerous awards, including the award of the Red Banana. After leaving the service, Frank worked in law enforcement for many years. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony, Frank A. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/35dfc54bb055eac3dab7e7bf9f28df1a.mp4 faa0a6731c093e668d2fa75efd23d072 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac555f48437e78ac8df34b4c04bf3227.pdf 36c1f6c0f121fc769bc26b6f2d81413a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Frank Anthony Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Frank Anthony of Twin Lake, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Frank, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born February 6th, 1947. Muskegon, Michigan. Went to school in Muskegon. My step-dad had a 6-door repair garage so I went from there to Ferris State College, taking automotive. You asked me earlier how I got into the military. At that time, I was engaged and next 5 years, I’d be able to spend 1 together. Didn’t make any sense. She was at one school, I was at another. If I volunteered for the draft, it was 2 years. If you go sign up, it was a minimum of 3. So, I went into the draft board and put my name at the top of the list, got myself drafted. Of course, you can’t tell her that. Interviewer: Alright. Let’s fill in a little bit around this here. When did you finish high school? Veteran: 1965. Interviewer: Okay. And then you started at Ferris? Veteran: Yes. �Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you attend there? Veteran: The technical program went year-round. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, I did a 2-year degree in a year and a half. And so, that would get me out of there in ’67. Interviewer: And is that when you then entered the service? (00:02:09) Veteran: Yeah, I got my draft notice and then went into the military in ’67. At that time, they sent you the draft notice, you went to a collection point somewhere. They checked all your names, you got on board a bus. We went down to Detroit and had our physical. You crack—you passed your physical, you raised your right arm, you were sworn in. That afternoon, we got on a train in Detroit and it traveled down to Fort Knox, Kentucky. Interviewer: Okay. When you were doing the physical, did you notice anybody trying to scam the system or find ways around going in? Veteran: Actually, at that time, I wasn’t even thinking about it. I was just…you know, everything was so unusual, I don’t even remember. Walking around in my underwear and standing in line and…It was…it was really different and weird and I really wasn’t watching. But of course, we talked about maybe wearing someone else’s, you know, wearing ladies’ underwear or something and seeing how that would work or…But no, I wasn’t really looking for anything like that. I was of the mindset that this was my turn to serve my country and someday I would have to face myself in the mirror and when it was my turn, was I willing to go? I mean, it wasn’t that I wanted to. It was just—it fell in there. I knew I was going to go sooner or later. Everybody was �getting drafted. And I was going to go and get it out of the way and come back and…Course you know, at that age if they tell you there’s going to be 2/3 casualties, you look to your left and you look to the right, you think poor sucker. You know, you’re young, you’re invincible. You’re in it and nothing is going to happen. Looking back and knowing then, I was willing to write I guess what you would call a blank check, realizing that things could happen: that I might die, that I might not come back. Well, I never expected to come back the same. My mother said the young lad she sent to war never came back. Physically, I never got injured. And I don’t know what she is referring to because changes happen gradually and slowly. And I don’t know. But I know I saw men die because somewhere in their chain of command, people didn’t stand up and say something. And I got determined I wasn’t going to be one of them. And so, like now, maybe I was a little outspoken. (00:04:57) Interviewer: Alright. Let’s kind of go back now here to your story. So, you go—they take you down to Fort Kno— Veteran: Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And that’s a lot like the movies, you know, “What are you doing on my bus?” “I’ve got a 90-year old grandma that can move faster than you do.” “You know, you’re lower than a snake’s belly in a wagon rut.” “You ain’t going anywhere for 6 out of 8 weeks of training because you are so stupid.” And they literally grind you down, wear you out, and start trying to rebuild you. And you’re learning the basics because everybody in the military has to be a trigger puller at one time or another, or could be. So, you learn the basics: you learn basic first aid, you learn how to put on your gas mask and how to take it off and scream “No, sergeant!” and turn �and put it back on quick. You know, how to use a rifle. Some basic hand to hand physical training. Interviewer: Okay. What about the drill and discipline part? Veteran: Oh yeah, you’re marching everywhere you go. You don’t go any place alone. It wasn’t as bad as later in the NCO academy and in flight school and some other stuff. If there were two of yous going somewhere, one of yous is marching and one of yous is calling cadence. But it wasn’t that bad in basic. But you know, everywhere you are going, you are marching. When you got up further, like in NCO academy or flight school, good share of the time if you were going anywhere you were running. Weather got too bad and the wet was up high enough, you could pull your shirt out, you could unblouse your boots, stuff like that. If it got bad enough, then they didn’t run us but…No, you were running. (00:06:39) Interviewer: Okay. Now what time of year were you at Fort Knox? Veteran: May. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And when there, you’re talking about sort of the process of breaking people down and building them back up and so forth. What kinds of things would they do to break people down? Veteran: Well, it seems like all the way through training they only tell you about half of what you are supposed to know. So, they would tell you they are going to bounce a quarter off your bed and if it don’t bounce, they are pulling all of the covers off. They come in and tell you everything has got to be evenly spaced in your floor locker and then footlocker and then they come in with a ruler and actually measure it. You don’t have a ruler. Course, this sort of nonsense continued all the way up, only it got more stringent. But they would check and do the �same thing. They would measure every one of your uniforms in your closet, or your wall locker, and measure them across and they got to be equally spaced. And then they start looking at the individual uniforms and if you didn’t button a pocket…You want that button? Here you go, you can have it. Oh, you don’t want it? Okay. Throw it away. Check for threads. Anything and everything. They are making sure that they are being so ridiculous that there is no way you can meet their standards. (00:08:06) Interviewer: Alright. And the point of that is…? Veteran: I am not sure. I know when I got into the NCO academy and flight school, they wanted us to pull together. And we got to a point where we weren’t totally rebellious but if the flight officer—if the TAC officer was messing with one of the troops, you’d hear somebody in the back say, “Fire mission.” And we’d go out and get in our—you know, one guy would get down on all fours and put his arm out and somebody else would be the forward observer and he’d be out there and somebody would be the FDC and they would be yelling back and forth to each other and somebody would play the artillery round that went out to the target and we’d just start harassing them. We’d be marching somewhere and somebody would holler, “Teaberry shuffle! March.” And the whole uniform—the whole formation would start doing this teaberry shuffle. And then he would stop and get all upset with us and make a right face so that we were facing him instead of being in the column to march. “What are you doing?!” You know. I remember in flight school one time we got some kittens. I don’t know where they came from. And we put them in the TAC officer’s drawer of his desk. He found them and everybody fall out. “Who put the kittens in my drawer?” And you hear from the back, “The shadow. He knew.” And we ain’t telling, you know. And so, then he made them all honorary officers. Well, that didn’t sound bad if you were a civilian. But if you are in that kind of training, any time an officer walks down the �hallway, if it’s anywhere near close, you’re at attention, what we call brace the wall, you’re at attention up against the wall just tight as you can get. And as he passes, “Sir, Captain, good afternoon sir.” And if he stands in front of you, you ain’t going anywhere. Well, we had to do the same thing for all of the kittens. Well, it didn’t take long; the kittens disappeared. They want you to start pulling together and somewhat, you know, fighting back so to speak but not…I mean, we filled this room with balloons one day. He opened his door and all the balloons fell out. I mean, we literally filled up glasses of balloons out on—I don’t know how to explain it. The buildings had a long concrete piece going up with kind of like an awning down south so that they shaded things below. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:10:27) Veteran: Well, we stood on that and stuffed the last of the balloons in the windows. And pulled the window closed. So, when he opened the door, the balloons literally fell out. And sergeant TAC officer just looked at that and he didn’t…So, then he got a folding chair and folding table and he went down to the latrine. And he put that in the latrine. When we walked down to use the bathroom, you walk in. “What are you doing in my office?” Out you go. Well, if you went to his office, you had to stand in the doorway, pound on the doorframe, and finally he would say, “Do I hear a termite in my wood?” “Sir, I came to request permission to enter, sir.” “What do you want to enter my officer for, sir?” “Sir, can I—I’d like to use the urinal, sir.” “You want to do what in my office?” Didn’t take us long—we got rid of all the balloons. But they’re trying to get you to pull together as a unit together to function together. The rest of it, to answer your question, was probably attention to detail. My wife tells me that I notice things that I guess nobody ought to notice. Which was interesting, because later while flying in Vietnam, I noticed that there were a series of charcoal kilns. And that the 5th one there, they never lit. I reported it, a patrol went out. �It was full of ammo. We are out another night and you just notice things that, I don’t know, why do you notice them? I just notice them. (00:12:09) Interviewer: Okay. Now, initially you are going in. You are drafted. A draftee normally serves for 2 years. Veteran: And back then it was nice because if you were a draftee, your social security—your military number started with US. And if you signed up, you were RA. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: And US was really looked down on because you were the scum they had to come get. I mean, that’s kind of the…And at the end of basic, they flew in a helicopter for orientation to how you approach it. Because you never approach a helicopter from the back—you approached it from the side or from the front. The blades can flex so you do want to bend down. Well, you can stand up and get under them most of the time. If you get a gust of wind or something, you may end up getting a little shorter real quick. So, they are teaching us how to get aboard them, how to get off of them, how to approach them. And I noticed that the pilot was not wearing a hat. He’s got a scarf around his neck and he’s wearing sunglasses. And nobody is harassing him, nobody is bothering him, nobody is…And I am thinking huh. And then, I am being trained infantry and I am figuring I am going to be eating out of cans and living out of a hole. And if I was flying that thing, maybe they would put it in a safe place? And you’d get 3 hots and a cot each day? And all of a sudden, maybe life was looking a little better. And all the time through basic, they were talking to me about officer candidate school. I got some college behind me. Testing showed that, for some reason, I was a good candidate for leadership. And they were insistent I was going to go to OCS and I was just insistent I wasn’t. And we were at an impasse. And when I saw this, I �asked about flight school and they started processing a request. And then, the Army doesn’t sit still and they don’t do anything fast. So, out of basic training, I went to advanced infantry school at Fort McClellan, Alabama. Interviewer: Okay. (00:14:17) Veteran: And that was an interesting base because that is also WAC training center and it’s also a chemical warfare school at that time so that was an interesting base to go to. And there they went through…I think they called it fast aptitude test was for flight selection. And…helicopter? Interviewer: Could be an airplane. Veteran: And they did a bunch of those kind of things. And then, somewhere in the rest of my career for quite a while, they sort of lost it. I can make assumptions why. Out of advanced infantry school, they sent me to the NCO academy. Interviewer: Well, to back up again to the infantry school here. You made a comment about you got WAC training there, you got chemical warfare school there. How much of that did you see or were you aware of or effected your experience there? Veteran: Well, first off, when you get there, any school you go to you are going to start at the bottom of the pile. You are lower than a snake’s belly in a wagon rut. You know, lower than a whale stuck at the bottom of the ocean. Common comments made. You’re not going anywhere for quite a while. I don’t remember whether the school was 8 weeks or 12 weeks. But somewhere in that area. And you’re not going much of any place until the end of it. Last maybe 3-4 weeks, you may be getting passes regularly and you go somewhere. So, really didn’t affect— you didn’t see much of it. You weren’t doing much. You saw what they wanted you to see. I mean, they would set up a mock village there that we would try and cordon in the morning. So, �you learn how to navigate a little bit in the morning. How to link up with other infantry troops in the dark and not shoot each other. How to get up then and slowly move into the community. How to go through the community. And they had people that were civilians from the local area that were functioning as villagers. And so, they tried to make the training as realistic as they could. (00:16:31) Interviewer: Now, was the harassment from the instructors— Veteran: Still kept up. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Oh yeah. Matter of fact, later my wife gets a big kick out of it. Later I mentioned I went through the NCO academy and then they sent me back to Fort McClellan to teach AIT. So now, I am Barney Bad. And I am the one walking down the middle and pounding on the top of the trash can, telling everybody to get up and hit it in the morning and, you know. The crazy thing about it is if you are the trainee, you don’t realize that your TAC officer went to bed after you did and gets up before you did. And I was trained that if you want to know what your boots looked like, you look at mine. So, you don’t really realize that it’s kind of a reverse thing. You know, you’re always in your own little world and you feel sorry for yourself but it…You know, looking back, it’s easy to see it wasn’t that difficult. When you are going through it to begin with, it turns your world upside down and it’s something like you have never been through before. And then every time you go up through one of the schools, it gets crazier and it gets worse and it gets longer. Interviewer: Okay. I think at that time, AIT was normally 8 weeks and so was basic training. And then more specialized schools then vary or go longer. Veteran: And I don’t remember how long the NCO academy was. (00:18:02) �Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: I do remember that that was a…It wasn’t a volunteer thing. I didn’t ask. And they called it ‘shake and bake.’ That’s what the guys called it. Vietnam was very much a small unit warfare. And they were having trouble getting, finding, promoting, having enough noncommissioned officers that were knowing what they were doing. I mean, it always amazes me; the military, after a war, starts forgetting everything they learned and starts getting rid of all the people that have the most experience and the most training. Probably because they are paying them the most. But there is a reason why. I mean, you take something like special forces I worked with, it takes years and I mean literally—we ain’t talking one year. They go through, if you’re standing in special forces, you go at least through 2 years of school then take a year with a unit and another year to shake up. Probably takes somewhere between 4-5 years before you really start knowing what you are doing and how to do it and you’re performing and independent. And then, they take a look and how many of these guys do we need? And they start cutting back and they start forgetting all the stuff that really made it work. Interviewer: But, basically, in Vietnam, there was this issue—they had built up the Army very quickly as well as the Marine Corps. They needed people to be the squad leaders and do a lot of that kind of stuff and so, they have to create a bunch quickly. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: So, most of them are picked out of basic training or AIT and said hey, you have leadership material. But in your case, was this a stepping stone to go to flight training? Or a way to just kill time? �Veteran: I don’t think so. I think they…I am one, I fit the criteria, they just took me and put me there. Like I said, I went back and trained AIT. Then after that, they pulled me again and sent me to long range recon school. Because at that time, I didn’t know it at the time, but at that time they were having like 90% casualty rate for the recon patrols that were going over the border into Laos and Cambodia. And they needed people. and that’s where I was when my request for flight school finally caught up to me. And I think it was due to a chaplain that I had went and talked to and says, “You know, somewhere back in basic I requested flight school. They did the testing but it didn’t happen.” And I think it was due to him that they finally nudged around. I found out later that they started…they have a certain wash out rate they expect. And I guess the wash out rate was a lot heavier than they expected. (00:20:53) Veteran: And I don’t think they wanted to let me go. I think they needed numbers. I was one of the numbers. I was evidently successful. And— Interviewer: So, washing out of the ranger training? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Well, you say ranger training. It’s difficult to tell who there was doing what because we had special forces, we had rangers, we had CIA, we had some mercs, that were all trained in the school. You can say it was at Fort Benning but we got to Benning, they issued our field gear, and we went to—I think it was a week or so—we went to some classes. And after that, we were in the field. And they never gave us enough map to really know where we are, because we would have walked out. And we are running around out there in the middle of no place. And they’re supposed to drop us supplies. And you get on the radio and you talk to the young 19 bird dog and �he’s coming in. And he tells you to authenticate, you authenticate, then he tells you you’re wrong so he doesn’t drop your supplies. So, the next 2 days you are chasing snakes. And purifying water maybe by boiling it or whatever. And the people that are training you, you have an aggressor force. They already know the whole agenda. They know where you are supposed to be. They know where you are supposed to go. So, we got original. I mean, if we are supposed to go over here, what’s the shortest route? Let’s take the long way. We didn’t want to play their game. But I think that’s too part of what they wanted to teach you. But if you went the straight way, you were going to get caught. And they weren’t nice to you if they caught you. And so, anyway… (00:22:48) Interviewer: Alright. So, at what point then do you finally actually get to flight school? When is it that you start that? Veteran: I was out in long range recon school when a helicopter came in at one point and they called off names and I thought they had a package or something. And I came forward and he says, “Get aboard the bird. The top wants to see you.” First sergeant. So, I got aboard the helicopter and it took me back to main base. And top says, “I got orders. You’re going to flight school.” Well, that was another week or two away so they sent me over to Chapel Hill at Fort Benning and I was Barney Bad at large, harassing a whole bunch of people’s troops. I am not responsible for any of them. I am just harassing a whole bunch of them because I have been trained to do that, you know. So, while you take the guys to the field, I go flip their bunks, I turn their footlockers upside down, I write up all the demerits. I, you know…So, I did that for a couple weeks and then I went over for flight school. Flight school again you are starting at the bottom of the barrel. �Interviewer: Okay, but do you remember roughly when, chronologically, you showed up at flight school? (00:24:01) Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay. Are we in 1968 now? Veteran: You know, my wife and I were talking and after a while, you realize at the end of your life, you end up with a hole. I’ll hear some music. I’ll watch a great event that happened on tv and I will go wait a minute, when was that? And they will tell you and you’ll go oh, that must have been when I was at Fort Benning or that must have been where I was overseas or something. Because you are so busy, you are not watching the afternoon news. Your schedule is very much they wake you up at 6 o’clock and put you to bed whenever they feel like it. And they may get you up in the middle of the night again. And if you’re back in the barracks, you may be cleaning your rifle, you may be cleaning your field gear. You may be using a toothbrush and cleaning the grout in the shower. I mean, it’s—you’re busy. And they make sure you are busy all the time. And you got a weekend pass, you don’t know a whole lot about the town. You don’t know a whole lot about anything. You pretty generally will leave base because you see enough of that. Interviewer: Alright. But sometimes events do intrude. Do you remember where you were when Martin Luther King was assassinated? Veteran: Oh yeah. At that time, I had been through the NCO academy. I was training troops at Fort McClellan. We were in the field and, all of a sudden, we got orders we were to come back to base. Right in the middle of our field training. Didn’t make any sense. So, we come back to base and first thing I notice is sitting along the side of the barracks is a flatbed truck with two �armored personnel carriers on it. And there is one sitting next to the next barracks. And we come in and Martin Luther King has been assassinated and we are on standby duty for riot control to go to Atlanta. And my guys are then cleaning their guns and getting equipment ready and…Crazier thing too, sideline personal note, I—the gal I volunteered for the service, the day I got the draft notice, her and I broke up. And she didn’t know I volunteered for draft. You ain’t going to tell her because if you get hurt, you don’t want her feeling responsible. But somewhere in there, I dated another gal and we were getting fairly serious. (00:26:34) Veteran: She was in Muskegon. And she’d write me she wants to come down and visit me. And I am not exactly in training. I am training people and there’s two sergeants. So, one sergeant can stay with the guys. I can have every weekend off or half a day off or a day off every week or whatever we want. And she’s going to come down and visit me at the base. And I write her and tell her no and I get from her letters that she ain’t paying attention. So, I wrote her daddy and told her that nice things don’t happen to little girls down at military bases and you got to keep her home. He writes me back as long as I meet her and she’s with me, he doesn’t care and I am going ahhh, no. You ain’t listening. And right in the middle of me getting the guys back and everything is in turmoil, I hear a whole bunch of fox whistles and stuff going on. And I walk out of my room and into the barracks. Well, at that time, I am a sergeant and these guys are in training so they hear, “At ease!” and the place is stone quiet. And look down the middle of the barracks because the bunks are down both sides and the guys don’t even walk in the middle. I mean they—you carried a sock that you had split and you put it over the nose of your shoe and you brought it up and you tied it over the instep so that if you walked in the middle you were polishing it and then when you took that off, it went inside your tunic and you stuffed them on both sides because you kept the floor nice and polished. And I was the sergeant so I walked �down the center. Walked wherever I wanted. Sharon had walked in the barracks on the other end and was walking down the middle of the barracks. That’s what the guys were all hooting and hollering about. And I told her, I says, “You, my room down there. Guys, I appreciate your taste. I think you got other things…” And I hear woooo. “You got stuff to take care of.” And I went back. (00:28:28) Veteran: But we were completely sequestered to the base. I borrowed a vehicle from the chaplain’s assistant and knowing the base, because I am training and out there with the guys everywhere, I went off the back of the base so I didn’t go through the guard shack because we were sequestered, I can’t get off. And I took her out to a hotel and dumped her at the hotel and told her I’d be back the next day if things permitting. And so yeah, I remember real well what happened when Martin Luther King got—because all of a sudden, everything is in the air and I am kind of juggling stuff and it was crazy. Interviewer: Okay. So, that kind of works back to the question I had asked about when you started flight school. So, it’s going to be after all that. Veteran: Oh yeah. Interviewer: And then your ranger/special forces training, whatever that was, after that. So, is flight school still in 1968 when you start that do you think? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. But later in the year? Veteran: I got to Vietnam in the middle of ’69. And flight school was 9 months long. Because we always joked the difference between a warrant officer and a hard bar, it—you know, your �lieutenants and that—the OCS, officer candidate school, is 6 months. And flight school for a warrant officer candidate is 9 months. And the extra 3 months burns out our military bearing. Interviewer: Alright. Now, talk a little, just a little, bit about—because a lot of people are not familiar with this kind of thing. What’s the relationship between a warrant officer and a conventional officer? Veteran: A warrant officer is warranted his commission. He’s not a commissioned officer. His job is normally one where he is a specialist or a highly trained technician. He may work in electronics, he may be a pilot, he may be a special supply officer. He may be a personnel warrant. He knows all the rules, the regulations, stuff like that. (00:30:23) Veteran: He does not have troop command. So, there’s your major separation. Difference being is special forces later made a warrant as an executive officer of an A team because they went up so far in the enlisted ranks, going up sergeants and that, they wanted to make a slot to keep some career people. And a captain—a lieutenant or a captain—is normally the leader of an A team. And the executive officer they finally made him warrants. But that’s the only place I know where they have any sort of troop command. And again, that’s a highly trained specialist. He’s not really running a whole lot of troops. He’s… Interviewer: Yeah. And I guess the officers—normally officers move around to different assignments. Veteran: Warrant officers also have a specific branch. Interviewer: So, they may stay there longer? �Veteran: Yeah. And when I was in—well, that’s not true because warrants, they now have a W5. We had W1, 2,3,4, and 5. When I was in, they only went to W4. So, you had plenty of ranks to go up. But it, again, I was responsible for the aircraft. I was responsible for flying it and understanding all that and that’s basically my job. You know, all officers have other assignments. For instance, when I got to Vietnam I was put in charge of the officers’ club. And I told the old man, I says, “Wait a minute, you don’t want me in charge of the officers’ club.” I said, “I’m a Mormon. I don’t drink.” I says, “I don’t know the difference between all your liquors and stuff.” Well, I didn’t end up with the job very long because since I don’t drink, I made sure there were plenty of other pops and things and I guess the sale of liquor went down. So…But he also told me, he says, “You don’t understand.” He says, “I am putting you in charge of the liquor locker because you are the only one we trust with the key.” That didn’t sound real logical to me but anyway. But they all have other jobs. At one point I was in charge of POL: petroleum, oil, and lubricants and parts for the aircraft. (00:32:37) Veteran: At one point I was the safety officer. Then at another point I was made the executive officer of the aviation company. That was again—the old man up at group—during the monsoon so a number of our people got weathered in. Went down through the ranks and it happened to be I was the guy with the standing seniority and so on and so forth. So, I take over. But I had been in NCO. I had trained troops. I had a different way of dealing with things and I guess I got all the work done and everybody was happy and the old man says, “You’re still the executive officer.” And I reminded him there were several officers that outranked me in our aviation outfit. And he says, “Doesn’t matter.” He says, “You’re the executive.” So, I took care of all of the enlisted men, I took care of the maintenance, the parts, the fuels. Some of the same stuff I was doing �before safety. I was supervising all that sort of stuff. But really you talk about troop command yet, I am still not commanding troops per se. Interviewer: Now, we had gotten in your story here to—basically, we have you now starting flight training to become a helicopter pilot. So, how did that—what was that process? Where did you go? What were you doing? (00:34:00) Veteran: Mineral Wells, Texas. It’s south and west of Fort Worth, Dallas. And most forbidden place you’ve seen. I mean, barren, wide-open, hot, dry. But they picked it because the density/altitude of the air they said was going to be similar to Vietnam, the flying. And they had 3 basic helicopters for us to start primary training with. One was a TH-55 by Hughes, one was an OH-13, which is what you see them flying in MASH, and then the other one was a Hiller OH-23 and it looked similar to the one you see in MASH—it had the same plexiglass front but it has an enclosed bottom and tailbone. And they all have piston engines. And you first off try and learn to hover, which is the single most difficult maneuver you are going to do. And if you don’t hover by about 18 hours, if they figure you’ll do it in the next couple hours they’ll keep you, otherwise they will reassign you and you get to start over with a whole other unit and come through and try and learn. But they start off you have classes in aerodynamics. You have classes in, well, you got to learn what all the gauges are supposed to say. Which is—later you learn, they don’t tell you this right away, but later you learn that they actually rotate the gauge so all the needles point upright. And if everything is proper in the aircraft—you look at all the engine instruments—all the needles are straight up and down. You don’t have to read each one of them. But to start with literally you memorize every one. And by the time we got to the Huey—I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a cockpit of one of them—but overhead there’s a panel about ye wide and it’s probably about 2-2.5 feet long. And over half of it is circuit breakers. And you put your hand up like this �and you feel the row and right there and that one. That’s the altitude indicator. And you know where the stuff is. So, you got stuff like that you got to learn. You got to learn the velocity not to exceed V and E, stall speed. A helicopter doesn’t have one. But you have all the characteristics of whatever aircraft you are flying you have to learn. And so, you have an immense amount of bookwork, you have an immense amount of stuff you have to memorize. (00:36:34) Veteran: Plus, all of a sudden you are getting into this aircraft and it’s kind of like trying to learn to ride a bike. The helicopter won’t do anything by itself automatically. Everything is uncoordinated. After you have done it a while, my wife was asking me a question the other day, and I literally had it going. I had to move my other foot and I go oh, it’s that pedal and it’s, you know, because I have done it so much it is automatic now and I don’t even think of it. You got that muscle memory kind of thing going. But you literally learn everything from scratch. And it’s just overload. Plus, you are still living in a barracks where everything is sterile, everything is waxed and polished. We had something about the size of a small tackle box that was our personal box. In there we could keep a second razor so we didn’t have to polish it and clean it absolutely so that the one that was on display was actually decent. That’s where your letters went, your personal stationary, stuff like that because that stuff wasn’t available to be on display. Interesting story about that. I had my scriptures out and I was studying one night and I had to use the restroom real fast and we had 3 guys to a room. And they said they’d watch it and I took off for the bathroom. And I come back: my scriptures are gone. Where are they? Well, the TAC officer came along. So, this is improper display. He picked it up and he took them. So, I went down, I braced in his doorway and I beat on the door. He asked who was there and I told him. “What do you want, sir?” “Sir, I want my scriptures back.” Well, he says it’s going to cost me so �many demerits. I told him I would take double the demerits if he’d keep them and read them. He threw them at me, told me to get out of his office. (00:38:36) Veteran: But you know, they are doing a lot of this stuff to see how you think under pressure, what you’re going to do, how you are going to behave, do you cave under stuff like that. And like I said, they want us to start working together as a group. So, and it doesn’t change. Like I said, in the schools I was in, the further up I went…I am still in training. If I had been a hard bar—a lieutenant—if I come out of OCS and went to flight school, out of officer candidate school I would’ve been going out to work at 8 o’clock in the morning and going home at 3 o’clock at night and probably living off the base or living in the bachelor officer’s quarters. Nobody is messing with me. I got a maid to take care of the place. You know, I do whatever I want to do. But we were warrant officer candidates so this is like officer candidate school. And ours is 9 months long, longer by about 3 months, and we are living in this vacuum besides trying to learn how to fly and do everything else and…So, it’s a…It’s enough to make you sleep well at night. Interviewer: Now, you’ve gone through an awful lot of this process of sort of being, you know, hazed or beaten into shape in each of these places. So, were you used to it by this time? Did you kind of know the drill or the system and just…? (00:40:01) Veteran: There is always a new bend. There is always a new twist. There’s always something that’s different. For instance, in flight school they found a dead fly on a window sill one day while doing an inspection. So, we had all our weekend passes cancelled. We had a dead aviator. We had to have a funeral with all military honors. And we didn’t have guns but guys had to go over there and get down on all fours and raise their arms and we had a 21-gun salute. And I mean, we went through all the nonsense. Everything you can think of. In basic, I don’t �remember. Trying to think…AIT? No. NCO academy they started having something they called taxi time and if you got enough demerits, you not only didn’t get a weekend pass but you had to get your gun out and you went out to a parking lot and there were lines drawn across the parking lot. And if you had so many demerits, you had an hour of taxi time. If you had so many more demerits, you had 2 hours of taxi time. You went out there and you started on the line and you walked to the other end of the parking lot on your line, did an about-face, and you march back and then did an about-face and then you march back and you’ve put in your taxi time. And I remember doing that in the NCO academy. And we had similar kinds of things we had to do at flight school then and so they always got a new little twist, a new way of playing. I don’t remember them following us out and having us low-crawl someplace and then inspecting our uniforms until I was in flight school. I do remember they fell us out middle of the night for a fire drill when we were in the NCO academy. But we got to the point they’d fall us out in the middle of the night and we’d fall out going M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E, Mickey Mouse, Mickey Mouse. Because you know, we are fighting back. We are doing our thing with them. But there is always one step up, one new little twist. Something different they are doing. Like we didn’t have to brace the walls, good afternoon sir, in the NCO academy or any of that kind of stuff. But in flight school? Yep. (00:42:29) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And flight school barracks were different. We weren’t in a big wide-open barracks. We were in individual rooms. There were 3 guys to a room. We had lockers. We had drawers built in the wall. Accommodations were nicer. Still wasn’t air conditioned. But was much nicer. Still had to do pull-ups or push-ups or other things to get in the mess hall. I was telling you earlier we had brass that we had on our collars, WOC, because we were warrant officer candidate. Made fun of �you if somebody had the brass on wrong. They’d make them fall out. “What’s this? You’re a cow? C-O-W. You got brass on backwards. So, you’re a cow?” So, they made them run around the barracks saying, “I’m a cow, mooo. I’m a cow, mooo.” Make them run around the formation. I mean, they always come up with something different. And they were always finding unique ways to mess with you. But it was the same old thing. You just…What do I want to say? You can’t get into a groove. They make sure there is no way you can just kind of sluff it off, forget about it, whatever. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Doesn’t happen. Interviewer: Alright. Now, the flying part itself. How quickly did you kind of get the hang of the helicopter? Veteran: I had trouble. Everybody is different. While I am quite physically fit and athletically well now, I was sort of an ugly duckling growing up and had difficulty. I got re-cycled and even the instructor that got me wasn’t getting there. He went to an older instructor who had flown in Korea and asked him if he’d take me. And he did and under his tutelage, I blossomed. Towards the end of hovering, he literally got me to do something that most pilots can’t do. And—because if you are—what you need to work on is what’s difficult for you, what you don’t do well. (00:44:35) Veteran: Human nature is you practice the things you are good at. But that’s not what you should be practicing. So, he got me out and he’d get me on the runway and they have a line painted down the middle of the runway. And he’d want me to hover down that runway at a steady pace. Then he wanted me to start turning the aircraft around while I am going down that line, keeping �the same movement down that line. Now, it doesn’t sound too bad. I mean, we are sitting here talking about it; it doesn’t sound too shabby. But you got a wind to contend with. So, it means as you bring your tail rotor around into the wind, you have to be playing pedal to that. The minute you get past a certain point, you’re not putting pedal to it anymore, you got to put the other pedal because the wind is going to now try and push you. So, that’s one thing. Secondly, when you’re pulling into the wind, you have to pull more power on so you coast—I can’t even do what I am thinking about. You’re twisting the throttle because you run it—the engine’s got to run it the same RPM all the time. Well, you’re pulling more power so you have to wrap the throttle on. The minute the wind is blowing, you have to wrap the throttle off. And while you are going around like this, it’s interesting because your perspective changes and the cyclic stick here that is controlling my direction. If I am just going down facing it, it’s like this. But as I am going down that line, the stick is basically going around the cockpit entirely to keep me on that line and keep me moving at a steady speed down it. So, it was different. He made me sweat a bit more in the cockpit than most and I don’t think…I know for a fact, most of the pilots I dealt with later never did. I mean, we would get some of them in the aircraft and I am saying, “Well, try this.” They’re, “You’re crazy.” “Well, go ahead and try it.” And they can’t do it. They’re all over the place. And I became a better pilot because I was re-cycled and I was having a hard time with it. And at that time, almost all the pilots we had that were teaching at Mineral Wells were all civilian. (00:46:36) Veteran: They were all ex-military, for the most part. But they were all civilian. And the gentleman that I had and I remember the most, like I said, was a Korean pilot. And he’d flown the OH-13s there. And the OH-13s were old aircraft and they were underpowered and so a lot of things he had me do he wouldn’t let me do in a normal take off. He made me do what they call a �max performance take off and if the helicopter moves forward…Helicopters don’t just take off. If you move forward, when you get 17 knots of relative air over the blades, it’ll start climbing out at 500 feet a minute on its own. You don’t need to give it anymore power. Man, sometimes you need to reduce a little power. But it will actually get that much lift and it will start climbing out all on its own. He had me do stuff like that. All kinds of things because the aircraft was underpowered. And 13 was the most underpowered of all the 3 aircraft they had there. The 55? It had power. I mean, you could hotdog that thing all day long. I am not sure that is teaching you good technique. He put me through the mill. And as a result, I was a much better pilot. Interviewer: Okay. Now that is still at Mineral Wells? That this is going on? Veteran: Mhmm. Interviewer: Okay. But that’s not the end of your training though? Veteran: No. Down there, you learn basic flight maneuvers. You learn some—we were talking about hovering—you learn how to take off, you learn how to land. You learn max performance take off. You learn emergency procedures: how to land it without an engine, how to handle tail rotor failures. You go through all that basic type of stuff then they start doing cross country. And that gets kind of interesting. You get to do that solo. (00:48:26) Veteran: And that was an interesting story. They had us check what we wanted for lunch or dinner that night because you’re going to do a night cross country and you get to check on your little form what you want. And they had porkchop sandwich down there and I checked it. And I am alone in this aircraft and I am doing this formation flying and I go into my bag and get my porkchop sandwich, unwrap it and take a bite and it was a real porkchop sandwich—bone and all. So, you get all kinds of surprises. I mean its… �Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now you’re—so you have the Mineral Wells and then after that, was Fort Rucker next? Veteran: Fort Rucker, Alabama. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I don’t remember if we switched at 4 months or 5 months and then we went to the other school. And the other school—they started off…We were flying OH-13 S models which were supercharged, brand new. These things were fully instrument rated. They never bothered to teach us to fly the dumb thing. We got in it, the instructor took it off, we put a hood on our head and we never saw where we were going. We are looking at our flight charts, we are looking at the instruments, and this is all analog which means that these are all instruments with the little dials and the little needlepoint. And this is not the modern day stuff where I am looking at a GPS with a map and a little plane is right here on this course. None of that kind of thing. You’d tune in a radio wave, you’d fly along that radio wave so many minutes at this speed, figuring the winds. And you ought to be at this location. You ain’t looking at your little screen and saying, “Oh, there’s my littler plane. I am right there.” Oh no, no, no, no. And if you keep flying off the radio, you start recomputing and figure out what the wind actually is and it’s never what they forecast. It’s got a habit of changing. (00:50:22) Veteran: I don’t know if you noticed that but it changes. So, you got a—your little wiz wheel, a little circular computer. And you recalculate and then you reset your heading and you re-fly it and recalculate your time to be at your location. And you did instrument school. Then after that, they started transitioning you into the Huey, UH-1s. And there were Alpha, Bravos, Charlies, and Deltas and then hotel models. And we got shuffled through all of them. And the hotel model �was the major one that was flown in Vietnam. Charlie—Alpha, Bravos were all changed to Charlie models. And Charlie models in Vietnam were predominantly used for gunships until the Cobra came along. And I happened to be there when the first of the Cobras showed up at Vietnam, which was interesting. But then with the Hueys, once you are transitioned into them, then they started teaching us formation flying. And different things. I mean, it’s got different characteristics so while you may have learned how to do an auto-rotation, now you are doing one with a Huey. And Huey was, basically, a ¾ ton truck. And really nice. You land it without an engine. It’s got weighted blades and it’s used to having a load and you could literally pick it up and hover it down the runway for a while and set it back on the runway because you had that kind of rotor speed left. It was a lot more fun than flying some of the other aircraft. But it was a total different feel. Huey, when you come off the ground, you really feel the nose come up first and then the other backside comes up and the rear right stays on the ground until the last moment. Then you pick it—so, you literally, if you can’t hover, now you are in trouble. Because like I said, she starts lifting front first and then one of the back heels come off and you’re literally sitting on just one point in the back. You don’t want to try coasting that way. You don’t want to try backing up. You better be staying right where you are. And if the wind is moving 15 miles an hour, that means as you’re coming up, you’re literally flying 15 miles an hour if you’re staying in one place. (00:52:35) Interviewer: Alright. Now, warrant officers who flew helicopters in Vietnam have kind of a general reputation of being kind of a wild bunch of characters. What sort of men were you training with as you were going through the flight schools? Veteran: I don’t know. You don’t think about it. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: You know, we were definitely an ingenuitive bunch. I mean, you kind of had to be to stay ahead of the TAC officers with everything that was going on. And I…Let me tell you a different story. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: When I came home from Vietnam between tours—because I extended to stay, it was a hardship tour and they couldn’t make you stay more than a year—when I got back, I went down to the airport and I threw 5 bucks down on the table and Cessna, I had an introductory ride: took you up for an hour and a half for 5 bucks. Now, I went down and I threw down my 5 dollars. And we are walking out to the aircraft with the instructor and I told him, “By the way, don’t tell me its an altitude indicator, don’t tell me this is 9LS and a GCA, I know. I just want to kick the tire, light the fire, and burn a hole in the sky.” He says, “What are you flying?” And I told him. So, I went out and I flew. We come back in and he says, “One more hour of dual time. You can do the rest as solo. I’ll sign you off.” And I go, “No.” He says, “Why?” “Baby’s a homesick brick looking for a place to bury itself.” There’s so much difference between flying a helicopter and flying a fixed wing. A fixed wing will do something for you. I mean, you can trim out everything and it will just maintain. It’s like throwing a paper airplane: it’ll fly. Helicopter won’t do anything. (00:54:20) Veteran: And I think it takes somebody loosely wrapped to fly them and maintain them. And I believe it was Paul Harvey who says that a pilot’s job was to keep 2000 parts flying in formation. If you literally get into aerodynamics, you find out we got counterbalance weights up there and everything else and the whole thing is kind of by centrifugal force kind of trying to tear itself apart and it doesn’t want to do anything it’s supposed to do. And I think it really takes someone that’s kind of loose wired. If you are too stiff or too uptight or whatever, I don’t think you’re �going to…I don’t think you’re going to make it. I don’t know for sure. But I just don’t think so. And Catch 22 and watching all the rest of the movies, I gather the World War 2 pilots weren’t any better. Except there were just more of us in Vietnam. Interviewer: Alright. So, now to kind of go back here to…Roughly, when do you finish flight school then? Or, when do you get to Vietnam, I guess is the…Is there any— Veteran: Well, by the time—funny thing is the way it works out. By the time I get through flight school, I got 2 years in the service. But when I signed up for flight school, I had to agree to fly for 3 years after or have 1-year commitment after flight school if I didn’t make it, if I washed out. So, when you get through with flight school, you have a 3-year obligation. One year is going to be Vietnam. One year is going to be training replacements. And then you’re going to be back to Vietnam because it was a hardship tour. It wasn’t a declared war. If it was a declared war— they were afraid to make it a declared war. We haven’t had a declared war since World War 2. Everything has been a police action or one thing or another. (00:56:13) Veteran: Congress needs to declare war. They are afraid to give the president war powers act and his dictatorial type of powers. So, we have not had a declared war. Vietnam was not a declared war. So, they could only make you stay there a year. And that made it quite difficult for all the Vietnam vets because we went over, we joined a unit that was there, we took the place of somebody that was leaving, we stayed a year and then we left and went home alone. We didn’t go home with the guys we were serving with. Our type of service was quite different. I mean, my dad—my step-dad—he trained with guys from Muskegon. He went over to Europe, landed D-4, D+4, 4 days after D-Day. Walked all the way to Berlin. They came home together on a boat. Had weeks decompressing and talking with each other. Knew the people in the community. Joined the same VFWs and American Foreign Legions and that stuff. They knew each other. And you �form a type of camaraderie in the military that’s nowhere else. Nowhere else. And we went over solo, we came back solo. Remember, we came back real fast. I mean, you board the plane, 24 hours you are back in the states. Whatever time it takes you to go standby to get home and you’re dumped home. And when I got off the plane, they were literally carrying the posters and hollering “Baby killer” and spitting at us and…It was different. And the guy next door could have been in Vietnam and got home the day before you got home, you wouldn’t know it. You weren’t saying anything about it because it wasn’t that popular. In my wife’s family, her brother served 2 tours in Vietnam and was an advisor with the Vietnamese on his second tour. And his sister was demonstrating down in Chicago against the war. And it wasn’t uncommon to have family’s split like that. And World War 2 wasn’t that way. (00:58:29) Veteran: We didn’t even get support from the VFW and the Foreign Legions and stuff like that. I mean, it was… Interviewer: Alright. Kind of go back again here. So, you finished flight school. Do you get a leave home before you go overseas? Or do they just send you away? Veteran: Well, they intended me to. Didn’t turn out that way. I have a series of allergies so when you go through to get the shots, and of course the military is famous for giving shots, and you get in line and you go through and get your shots, they’ll list a series of allergies. If you had any of them, you’d put your hat on backwards. So, I put my hat on backwards and go through the line. So, when I was all through with school, I got these orders to go to Vietnam right away. So, I already know there’s a whole bunch of shots I didn’t have. So, I asked. So, then they go check my records and they go, “We don’t know.” “You don’t know? Well, okay so now what do I do?” “Well, you’re not going anywhere. Your orders are null and void.” Now, a training base doesn’t know what to do with you after your training. So, I am put on temporary duty, or TY, and I am �an officer so I can go get a room in the BOQ. But I am also being paid temporary duty pay and I am going “Wait a minute, I don’t have any assignment?” “Nope.” “I don’t have any duty?” “Nope.” So, I went down to Panama City, Florida, got a room at the Holiday Inn on the beach. And every day at noon, I called the first sergeant: “Got any orders yet? Oh, breaks my heart. Okay, I’ll call you tomorrow.” And I am off and playing. (01:00:13) Veteran: And that went on for, I don’t know, 2-3 weeks. Finally, they got orders for me. But my orders aren’t specific now. Before they knew they had this many pilots going to be coming to Vietnam so they already have a place you’re going, they’re already expecting you. They sent me over to basically a manpower pool. And I got thinking about it. I flew into Cam Ranh Bay. They sent me over to this manpower pool. And they sent me over to first field force in Vietnam, the largest advisory command in Vietnam. They sent me over to first field force artillery. Now, my mind is going…is this aggressive negotiations? What’s advisory doing with artillery? Didn’t ask anything, just do what you’re supposed to do. They send me to 52nd artillery group headquarters located in Pleiku. Now, Pleiku is 2/3 of the way up south Vietnam and it is dead center in the middle of the country. East to west, it’s dead center; 2/3 of the way north, right in the middle of I Corps—or II Corps. I get up there and CIA’s got a rodent office across the road. Special forces a quarter mile down the road. We have a lot of big guns. 175s, 8-inch—they aren’t even in the military anymore. They have been replaced with rockets now. And these guns were placed in special forces camps all up and down the border. Now, when I say border, this was Laos and Cambodia. And they have a sprinkling of light guns: 155s and 105s. What I mean by sprinkling is they don’t have a full battery of guns there. They have 2, maybe 3, maybe 1. And the gun is there to fire mutual support on the other special forces camp further down the border. (01:02:18) �Veteran: The Montagnards were an aboriginal people that prior to World War 2 were pretty well left alone in the highlands. Up in the mountains there, the Vietnamese didn’t go. They stayed down on the delta; raised their rice on the coastal plains. And they weren’t up in the delta to speak of. Due to the Japanese being there, a nice place to hide is in a jungle. Hiding in a rice paddy ain’t a good idea. So, there were more of them in the highlands. And the Montagnards were up there and they were an aboriginal people. And when you go into a village, you could tell if the chaplains had got to them or if the missionaries had been there because then the women were wearing tops. Otherwise they had a cloth wrapped around their waist. The guys wore a breech cloth and that was about it. About the only thing manmade they had was maybe a machete that came from outside their village. But they had a unique machete too that their village people would make. Very unique. They were the Indians, the natives of the country if you will. Fine light infantry. We put them in over the border. Well, I can’t say we did that. I know officially from the radio and tv we have no combat groups in Laos and Cambodia so they got over the border somehow. And they were there doing their patrols and things and it wasn’t unusual we’d lose radio contact with them. And they were being controlled by special forces and CIA. And sometimes a month, 2 months later, they’d come back across the border. Now, they went over the border. Special forces contracted out of Hong Kong and other places to have special uniforms made. And you remember the tiger stripes were a uniform connected with Vietnam. But they were never issued to our troops. They were uniforms that were made for the special forces because the Montagnards were smaller framed, little people. (01:04:20) Veteran: And our uniforms didn’t fit them. They made special rations for them because our C rations were too big and stuff they didn’t eat. So, they made special C rations for them and stuff. They had special packs built for them and everything else. They’d put them across the border �and when they came back, after we had lost contact with them, they came back wearing black pajamas, toting AK-47s, socks with rice balls in them hung around their necks. They literally were in their own world in the jungle. They could have, if they had decided not to be soldiers yet, take their machete and live off the jungle because that’s where they lived. But they carried the war to the enemy yet and came back across the border totally resupplied with the enemy’s supplies and were terrific troops. But since they were Montagnards and they were aboriginal people, they had a hard time figuring out how to fire a cannon to shoot at something they couldn’t see. So, we had the guns there for mutual support. We also had guns in a number of other places. We supported 1st cav, we supported the 4th infantry division. We had guns that were used for hip shoots. Hip shoot was—they’d run a unit down the road and at some place, they would just pull off the road, haul out their own barbed wire and put it around, make a base right on the side of the road. And that would kind of keep the Viet Cong off guard because now you could put a pin in the map and draw a brand new circle and say what couldn’t they support with artillery before that they could support now? Why did they move these guns? What are they doing? And they would do hip shoots. We did all kinds of things. We even had a few big guns, and I don’t know why, down at Phù Cát which is close to Quy Nhơn down on the South China Sea. (01:06:10) Veteran: So, I flew everywhere from the South China Sea to the border. Two weeks in Vietnam, the old man tells me to grab my dress blues; he wants me to fly him down to Saigon for a command party. So, I mean, I was from Saigon all the way up into about half of I Corps, from South China Sea…Well, they—we have a radio in the aircraft they call a transponder. And a transponder puts a coded signal on a radar screen to tell them it’s you. And if you get into trouble, you flip a switch and it literally does ripples like on a pond on somebody’s radar screen. �And they know you’re in trouble and they got your exact location. They set my transponder so I could enter Thailand because it was shorter than coming back. And they told me if I get in trouble, keep going because your nature is to go where you know. So, if you get lost, you backtrack right? And they said na-huh. You get in trouble, you have mechanical difficulties, whatever, keep going, they will recognize you as friendly. You can enter Thailand. So, I don’t know where—I officially know where I wasn’t but I don’t know where I was. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, when you joined the unit, did they know what to do with you? Veteran: Yeah, I am a pilot. I am coming but they couldn’t use me. Well first off, when I get there, they can’t use you at all because you take a week to two weeks to get climatized. And just like in basic and some of the other places, we were down south, we were in a hot, muggy environment, we were doing more physical activity than normal. But Vietnam’s even different. My wife always wants me to tell that when the C-130 landed in Pleiku and it taxied up on the tarmac by the terminal, when you walked down that—the ramp in the back—you step out on that tarmac. That’s like an asphalt paved area. It was like walking into an oven. And you’re smelling the incense and the nuc mam, the fish sauce. You know you ain’t in Kansas anymore, Toto. (01:08:26) Veteran: I mean, it hits you. And I mean, it is stark reality it’s here. This is different. Well, for the first week or two, they want you to climatize. You’re getting salt tablets every time you go down to a meal. They are making sure you get them. We started taking chloroquine, primaquine, and dapsone, which are anti-malarial drugs—suppressant drugs. I got to get a physical. I got to be assigned a weapon. I got to be assigned my flight suits and…You’d think I’d come with that stuff. I came with my helmet. But all the rest of the stuff—and they issued me 4 pair of jungle fatigues. I don’t know what for. But they also issued me a pup tent—a full pup tent—a regular �duffel bag, ground pad, TA-250 gear which is your web gear with your ammo pouches and your first aid kit and your butt pack and all that stuff. I actually signed for an extra duffel bag, stuffed all that junk in the duffel bag because I ain’t going to be using it. And it went in my room, went underneath the bunk. But everybody gets it. So, you got to go through all that sort of stuff. Then when I go down to the aviation section, we didn’t have Hueys. They had OH-23s and OH-6s. I didn’t fly an OH-23 in flight school. OH-6s were a more advanced aircraft by Hughes and a lot of guys know it as a LOH—light observation helicopter. That was more fun to fly. See, they didn’t want to train me to fly that. (01:10:07) Veteran: So, I sat around another week while they sent another pilot to go through instructor school and he come back and they train me to fly a 23 which was another one of the basic ones. And I flew a 23 and for a number of months, I flew a 23. Then our unit got totally replaced with OH-58s. And when the OH-58s come in, I went down to Vung Tau, which is a little south of Pleiku, or Saigon, and got transitioned into the OH-58. And that was done by, again, civilian pilots that were contracted out. But that was interesting because Vung Tau is a different place. All the way through the entire war, even when the French were there, they never fought in Vung Tau. And Vung Tau had a reputation for being and R and R center, a rest and relaxation center. For both the Vietnamese, North and South, the Americans and the French, and you walked down the streets there and you got these huge stone walls—brick walls—with broken glass on the top of it. And some of the glass is all different colors. And then wrought iron gates to go into these fabulous houses and mansions and places. And they took me—and first thing they did was take my gun away. So, they take my gun, they give me a card. That’s never happened before. And they take me down to this hotel. And again, great big walls, iron gates, and there’s two great big sand bag bunkers at the corner. And that didn’t surprise me. But what surprised me was as I got �closer is there’s all these cobwebs in the shooting loops. What? And I go into this hotel and typical old French hotel: wide-open first floor. You got the hotel desk, you got dance floor, you got a bar, you got the restaurant, and then it’s the typical open type of elevator with the…I don’t know what you want to call it? With the accordion type of door that goes across. And you go up and they took me up to my room. And really nice room. I mean, big bed, big mosquito net goes around the whole bed. The room has got a couch in it and a chair and a table. And bath. Interesting things about the bath is it was tepid water but no hot water. (01:12:47) Veteran: You had a veranda or a porch that was off to the side that was all screened in. Just beautiful place. But there is no bunker. And the base I was on, we were getting hit two, three times a week. And we’d scramble to the aircraft so I had my gun all the time. And I am down here and there’s no bunker. And then they tell me the city is on limits all night. Well, where I come from, at dark or before dark they close the gates to the base, they haul out a bunch of— look like saw horses. They got Constantine wire all over them. They put them in the driveway and that and everything is closed up. And if you are going to go anywhere after that, you need orders. And you need at least two vehicles. And you needed a machine gun and a radio and you had to have your flak jacket on and your helmet and…The town is on limits? I literally had to go downtown to see. I mean, I couldn’t believe it. And they literally had part of the market still set up where all the fish were all displayed and the fruit is all laid out and I just…We are in the same country? I mean, it was…Whoa. Just really different. (01:14:10) Interviewer: Okay. Now, that is sort of the exceptional experience. Let’s go back. When you were flying in the first part of that tour, when you are flying the 23s, what kind of missions did you have? �Veteran: Missions stayed the same, all the way through. The group had a table of organized equipment, TOE, that prior to…about 6 months or so before I got there, they had had fixed wings. L-19 Bird Dogs, which was common for artillery units to have fixed wings. And they switched them over to helicopters. And they were authorized 2 aircraft, 2 pilots, 2 mechanics, and 2 toolboxes per battalion. And group was authorized 4. And they put them all together and decided they had an aviation company. Now, that sounds nice but we don’t have anybody to run operations. We don’t have the radio to run the airfield, we don’t have a whole bunch of stuff. So, we were this kind of put together…You know, war is a come as you are affair. Everybody has got an idea of how it ought to be fought and everybody’s got this great idea of how many men ought to be in a platoon but you fight, you go to war with what you have. So, they had 23s and the OH-6s that were here because the Bird Dogs were gone. And OH-23, you straddle the instrument panel and there’s a place for a person here and a person here. And that’s fine. If I am flying a commander out, he wants to go inspect some place, I got the commander. He wants to bring somebody with him? That’s fine, he can come with me. If I am flying the chaplains, there’s 2 chaplains. If I am flying a…USO usually went in the OH-6s or the Hueys. We contracted— contracted—we submitted up above somewhere and we requisitioned one Huey. And usually one, two, rare day we might have three, heavy lift aircraft. Flying cranes or Chinooks. Because we had some bases that were so isolated, like Firebase 6. They brought in a bulldozer, leveled off the top of the mountain, brought in the barbed wire and put in the perimeter, built the bunkers there and we literally landed on a bunker. There was an H in sandbags put on top of this bunker. (01:16:40) Veteran: You landed on top of the bunker at Firebase 6. There was no gate. There was no perimeter. There was no road coming in there. There was no paths going out of there. It was just �there. So, everything they had went in and out by air. So, there would be a water tanker at the end of our field, they’d pick up that water trailer and carry it out to Firebase 6. We had a lot of stuff that went out by air. Of course, Vietnam—one trouble the French made is they limited themselves to the road and the Viet Cong took over control of everything else: the jungle, the small villages, everything. And then in the monsoon season, a lot of those roads were totally impassive. So, the helicopter became airborne, like I said, airborne truck. And I was flying the light pickup. And they would put net 23, wherever they wanted to go. There were times when all I carried was mailbags. And carried mail out to these bases and I’d go to this base and drop off a bag and then I’d go to this base and drop off a bag. I might take the…Doc might go out there and check the mess hall. If they didn’t have a mess hall, he might go out there and check their water. He might go out and check where the latrines are and how things looked and just do a sick call out there. Just see how things are in general. There were all kinds of things that had to go. Such as people that had to repair a gun because guns malfunctioned: the recoil mechanisms on them or hydraulic. They fail. The 175s were notorious. They were a high velocity, long barrel gun. They only fired so many rounds, the barrels had to be replaced. (01:18:24) Veteran: So, all that stuff got out there and got back by aircraft. So, 23s, they got utilized. I might go out by myself and register a gun battery. Technically, a gun ought to fire from here to there and hit a certain spot and they know by math that ought to do that. But that is theoretical. And in a real world, it doesn’t do that. So, you’d have to register the gun battery every so often and you’d have a known point and they’d shoot at it and I’d correct the artillery until they hit it. And then they could make correction for barrel wear and for weather and for who knows what all, with their slide rolls and computers to figure out exactly where they are going to fire so then the next rounds were accurate. So, every so often, the guns had to be registered. And I’d go out and �do that. And I would do that by myself. Well, yes and no. Our crew chiefs didn’t fly. Now, if I was flying a Huey, your crew chief was your door gunner. But we didn’t have the space for them. So, our crew chiefs didn’t generally fly. So, if I was going out to register a gun battery, I had to tell my crew chief, “Want to go?” “Yep.” And those light aircraft had dual controls. Well usually we took them out. He’d put them in. And I’d let him have some stick time and time to fly it. And you let him call the base, use the radio and learn the radio procedures. And you never know, I may go out some time and be covering a convoy with the crew chief and I may get shot up and he may have to fly it back. So, while we weren’t supposed to, we did. Interviewer: Alright. How common was it for you to be in a place where somebody might shoot at you when you were in the air? (01:20:13) Veteran: Real common. Our base, we had what was known as a One Eyed Charlie. One Eyed Charlie was a person that the Viet Cong would press into service, give some dilapidated type of gun, give him a few rounds and tell him to shoot at the Americans. He didn’t want to but if he didn’t, they would come back at night and hurt him, hurt his family, hurt whatever. They would quite often then tell him that if he’d go down by the bridge by the creek out by his field, there’s a little tin can sitting underneath the bridge. There’s two rounds in that can. He’s to put his two empties in there. And he had to put his two empties in there and shoot his two rounds at us. And if you had a One Eyed Charlie, you didn’t shoot back at him. I mean, he didn’t want to shoot at you. So, he just gun over the barracks, over the berm you know, bang bang. And he’d be gone. And ours only hit one aircraft, once, all the while I was there. But you knew he was going to shoot at you some time or other. And he usually shot at us rather than other things. And so, you didn’t return fire. One night we got hit. I scrambled. Got down, got the aircraft. Took off and a helicopter doesn’t really have to take off into the wind. We do for some safety procedures but it’s �pretty well directly making its own wind. It doesn’t much matter. And I took off into the wind, down the runway and as I got to the end of the runway and I am getting ready to go over the bunker line and then the barbed wire starts, out on the rice paddies out there—all of a sudden there went this solid wall of tracers in front of me. And a helicopter is basically a flying disc. The fuel sludge underneath is just airstream going along for the ride. So, I did a pedal turn, which means I just made the back end of the helicopter go to the front end. And I am basically going backwards. And I turned and I just did a pedal turn and just went the other way down the runway. You can’t do that with a fixed wing. If it’d been a fixed wing, I’d have been committed. Probably should have been anyway for different reasons but anyway, I went the other way down the runway. And then, the OH-23 had tube radios. So, I can’t even tell anybody yet because you turn on tubes, you got to wait for them to warm up. (01:22:35) Veteran: And I scrambled. So, they ain’t even working yet so by the time I am clearing the runway and the other side, I am screaming back at the guys, “Hey, tell everybody that gets an aircraft not to go off that end of the runway.” And—but we got shot at. You know, it’s not always in the same place, it’s not always the same way, it’s not always…I was covering a convoy one day and they got hit. And I am readjusting. Down the highways quite often, they would park tanks as part of the road security. And I was repositioning the tanks and directing their fire. I was also calling fire from one of our firebases in. In the meantime, I went on guard frequency and requested that any fast movers going back with ordnance…I am guiding them in and having them drop ordinance along the top of the ridgelines so that the Viet Cong couldn’t escape over the top of the hill. While I am doing all that, the captain that is liaison for me with the convoy calls me and tells me I got tracers going by my tail boom. Alright. I mean, what are you going to do? We flew at 1000 feet above ground level, AGL, because at that place, ground �fire wasn’t effective from small arms because you are outside of effective range. And you were real close that most anti-aircraft fire definitely couldn’t shoot you because you were real close. And if they fired at us and missed us the first time, we’d kick it out of trim, drop all our pitch and be on the tree line before they could get a second burst at us. So, we flew around at about 1000 feet above the ground and if it’s missing me, that’s good. (01:24:16) Veteran: I mean, that—I can’t go across the road because that’s where I am directing all the other fire. I can’t go anywhere. I can’t do anything about it. You just sit there and do your job. I mean…They used to say we were real cold. We had…Well, they—that we just had nerves of ice. And it’s not true. You got to fly the aircraft. If you don’t fly the aircraft, it’s going to crash. It will not maintain forward flight. It won’t do anything on its own. You just got to do. So, well we may look calm and we may look whatever…Ehh. It ain’t so. Interviewer: Alright. Now did the helicopters you’d fly, did they ever get hit? Veteran: I never got a bullet hole. I did a tour and a half. I did that for an early release from service. But I never got a bullet hole. Two of them, I got so slow and low and doing the job that had to be done that they got so full of shrapnel they wouldn’t even look at replacing it, they just gave me another aircraft. And I found out later they stripped the components out of both of those airframes and scrapped the airframe. So yeah, they got hit. I was once—when we got the OH-58s, we had the bell tech rep living with us because they were so new. We had 13 of the 20 of them that came to Vietnam in our unit. Self-centering bearings, didn’t. Self-lubricating bearings, didn’t. Of course, since they are self-lubricating, you don’t put zert fittings on there and you don’t put the little nuts you can take off and put the zert fitting in there and so what are you going to do with them? We had a lot of interesting times to start with them because while the Army had accepted them yet, none of them had seen combat, none of them had been in those �kinds of environments. And we were working out stuff brand-new. I forgot what I was going to tell you. Interviewer: Well, we were talking about being hit and damage or things like that. And did you have accidents with those helicopters or close calls with them while you were learning how to fly them? (01:26:39) Veteran: I had two guys in my unit that cracked them up. One was with an OH-6. OH-6 had a unique character. Every aircraft has a little something about them that is different. OH-6, if you hovered down-wind…down-wind, up-wind, I wasn’t ever checked out in one. The tail rotor would disturb the air enough in that configuration that the tail rotor—the main rotor would disturb the tail rotor enough that it would lose integrity. And while he was going over the barbed wire, he thought he had a tail rotor failure. And in a tail rotor failure, you’re supposed to chop the throttle and then dead-stick it in. Well, he dead-sticked it in the barbed wire. He gets caught, he rolled it up. He got med-evaced out of country. Alive, doing fine. But we had another one who was going to impress people. the aircraft is set up with enough other connections that you can put headsets on and headphones and if you want to, you can give everybody in the aircraft a set of headphones. You can talk to them on intercom. And they were questioning about auto rotation. So, he chopped the throttle and was bringing it in for an engine off landing. And when he got down, I guess around 500 feet, he rolled the throttle back on except the engine had quit. But he went through the procedure to turn the throttle back on. But he obviously wasn’t watching the instruments. (01:28:16) Veteran: And he went to pull pitch and his rotor blade slowed down even further. So, now he’s low and slow and no rotor RPM. And he’s committed. It’s a very forgiving aircraft. He decided to try and make a running landing instead of trying to flare and found a rice paddy dike and took �his skids off the bottom and that broke all the tubes that controlled the aircraft. From there on end, he was going along for the ride instead of flying it. And I have pictures of that aircraft. It— the main body of the aircraft, the fuse box was basically broken in half. Stayed together and landed down there but it got busted up. He ended up with a spinal compression. He…Yeah. I was flying—I know what I was going to tell you. Our OH-58s were so new that nothing really worked the way it was supposed to. And when it didn’t, pilots like to fly. I mean, we got into it for a reason. We don’t like war but we like flying. So, we’d go and fly with some of the lift units, some of the Huey units. And I was flying with a Huey unit and we were going down the la Drang Valley. And I was in flight lead, which means that if you have a V, I am the head goose in the V, flying down there. And all of a sudden on the radio, there’s all kinds of chatter. Chock 2 is going. Chock 3 is breaking off. chock 4 is going overhead. chock 5 is going low. What’s going on? We are getting raked with .50 caliber fire. The only aircraft that didn’t get hit. Over the border one time, went into an LZ. The only aircraft to come back out. I don’t know. I got a guardian angel with ulcers. Owe him an apology someday. Interviewer: Okay. (01:30:14) Veteran: But you do the job. And while the aircraft got banged up and cracked up and shot up, the death rate, the injury rate…The Army lost more pilots in one year—I mentioned we had a three-year obligation, one year was Vietnam, one year was back to the states, then back to Vietnam. They lost more pilots in one year in the states due to motorcycles and cars—alcohol, motorcycles and cars than they did in two years of combat flying. So, you talk about us being loose wired and crazy bunch? I guess. I guess. Interviewer: Well, you were maybe a little bit less so in the sense that you had religious motivations that maybe made you behave better than some of your colleagues. I actually �wanted to kind of transition a little bit over into talking about sort of life on the base in Pleiku. Daily life: what was that like? What would you do day to day? Veteran: Well, most of the time I was there, I was the executive officer of the aviation unit, so I got up early in the morning. I go to the mess hall and eat. Then I’d go on up and sit in the old man’s briefing. The commanding officer didn’t care to do that. So, I am sitting in a full bird colonel group headquarters. I am sitting in his briefing so I am hearing everything going on all over Vietnam. Listening to all the latest intelligence reports, everything else. And after report, how many aircraft do we have available today? How many hours of blade time we have available? He’s telling me that they have guns down at, say, Firebase 6 and Ben Het, and we got to get a mechanic out there to fix those. That kind of got priority. Stuff like that. So, after that is over, I am going down to the base and we finally got a sergeant who is nothing to do with aviation. Doesn’t know anything about it. But we got a staff sergeant, E-6. And he ran our operation for us and took care of paperwork. And you’d come into our building down there and he’d have a whiteboard. And he’d have all the bases and you’d tell him where you want to go, he’d write you on the board and if we had a seat somewhere, he’d put you in the seat because we had this Huey that we got every day. (01:32:37) Veteran: And the Chinooks and cranes and that were always doing sling loads so they weren’t taking anybody. And then we had all the other aircraft: the OH-6s, OH-58s, 23s. We had an extra seat, we’d put you in there, take you out to the base. And he was taking care of stuff like that. He also did flight following for us. So, if I am leaving the base going to Plei Drang, before I land it in Plei Drang, I call him, tell him I am over Plei Drang, mark me down. And he’d flight follow and keep track of us. Things like that. And then I went to work. But our unit, since it was different, they just figured they had so many aircraft and when a full bird colonel tells a battalion �commander what he is going to do, he says, “Yes sir.” So, all the aircraft were put in this pool. And while a battalion commander may want a particular pilot and he may say I need an aircraft today, he got an aircraft today. And there was no argument. No nothing. You made sure he got an aircraft today. And he’d fly and go wherever he wanted to go. So, the group commander decided early I was his pilot. I was a warrant and I had a stay at flight school. I wasn’t partying every night. He didn’t want a hard bar. I was in my mid-twenties. He wanted one that was married; I was single. I was the oldest warrant, which also helped maybe settle me down a little bit. The old man hoped so anyway. So, I became his pilot. So, if he wanted to go somewhere, I was reserved for him. And I waited until he came down and I flew him. But then I’d fly whatever he put high priority to. There was one time I flew a kid that had to repair a bulldozer. I was over there during what they called the Vietnamization section where we were training Vietnam to take over more of the war. And we were destroying some of the bases and a bulldozer was broke. So, I flew this kid out to repair the bulldozer. And the old man said, “He never flew before. He’s scared to death to fly.” He flew here in the big bird but he is scared to fly. So,” he said, “I want you to take him.” (01:34:52) Veteran: And I did. And that was a lot of fun. Matter of fact, I’ve got him so relaxed, I let him fly the aircraft part of the way. And when he was through repairing the bulldozer, he says, “Here. You drive the bulldozer.” And I says, “I don’t know a thing about a bulldozer.” He says, “We are tearing the base down. You ain’t got anything you can hurt.” So, I literally went right through a building with a bulldozer. But you know, it was…It’s not all war. The crazy part about war most people don’t understand, and you ask me about my day, is that a lot of it is hurry up and wait. Always. And I can remember after I had been there, I don’t know, about 4 or 5 months…something like that. When I first got there, we were getting hit 2,3,4 times a week. And �by fourth, fifth month I was there we might get hit once and then not get hit for a couple weeks. And we were sitting around one night thinking about how many people had transitioned in, how many new people we had, what would they do if we got hit, because we don’t—because you’re not dealing with people that have been through this mill. And we were talking about the old days when we scrambled with the shower shoes and a towel wrapped around us because we happened to be in the shower. And you know, comment to Hollywood, you don’t run back to your room and jump into your flight suit and put your socks on and put your boots on and, you know, you don’t do that. I mean, we’d get airborne and then we are talking to each other on the radio because we had a series of aircraft at our field, we’d be talking to everybody on the air once we got airborne and who’s got an aircraft with the time? (01:36:35) Veteran: Okay and who’s in full uniform? And then the rest was to go over to another base and sit on the runway and wait until this thing was over. And you know, if you happened to be in full uniform, you were at the O club and you were in full uniform, fine. If I was in shower shoes and sandals, I am probably sitting over at the Pleiku airbase or over at Camp Holloway on the other side of town waiting for the battle at our base to end. And then I’ll come back. And it was funny; it was just a couple days later I ended up sitting over at Camp Holloway in a towel and flip flops. Nothing looks funnier than a pilot with a helmet on, gloves on, chicken plate survival vest, a Roman type towel wrapped around your waist in flip flops. I mean bare arms. You know, just…And you’d get a lot of comments from ground crews running around on the base doing their thing, you know. Interviewer: Okay. So, now what would you get hit with? Was it rockets or mortars? Or…? �Veteran: Rockets, mortars. We got probed. Second week I was in Vietnam, they shot our barber in the barbed wire. He was sneaking in with satchel charges and not much more than a loin cloth wrapped around his waist and…Which is another interesting story because I ended up flying a Kit Carson scout. They started, shortly before I got to Vietnam, something called Chieu Hoi Project, which I gather means surrender or something similar to that in Vietnamese. But Chieu Hoi. And they would come over and most of the guys at Chieu Hoi were put back in the military but they were put back in the South Vietnamese military. And they knew if they got caught, life wasn’t going to be good for them. So, they ended up being, by and large, the vast percentage of them and ended up being very, very loyal and very, very good soldiers. (01:38:38) Veteran: And we had one that was a sapper. And I flew him, with the commander at times, out to some of these bases. And he’d take a look at the base. And he’d literally strip down to his underwear and he’d get a couple little pieces of bamboo sticks and put them in his…And he’d come through the barbed wire. And he’d come through the barbed wire about as fast as you think you could walk through it. And he’d show them where their weak points were and stuff was bad and stuff like that. And that was a real eye-opener and an eye sight because while the commander would see him at this base, we had 4 and 5 battalions and each battalion has got 4-5 gun batteries and—or 4-5 companies with 4-5 gun batteries in each company. And so, there’s a lot of bases out there. And I got to fly a lot of them and a lot of different commanders. Not only the group commander but battalion commanders and stuff like that. So, I took this little Kit Carson scout to several different bases and stuff. And it was interesting. It was interesting talking with him and finding out a bit about how they lived and how the Viet Cong fought and things and different…Wife mentioned that I hadn’t commented about…There was a hip shoot position at one time. And in the middle of the night, they thought they had movement in the barbed wire. �So, they put a couple flares up and there is nobody. Of course, you can hear the mortar fire of the flare. So, this went on and there is some more movement and…So, they put two flares up but one with a delayed fuse and one with a short burn. So, you fired the flares but one lights, it goes out quick. A short pause and another one lights. Here’s a Viet Cong, standing in the barbed wire, right in front of a duster, about a 40-millimeter anti-aircraft gun. (01:40:35) Veteran: And this thing had been mounted on tracks and was part of the perimeter support for this hip shoot. And they shot him. So, the next day they had—make your intelligence report and stuff and a few days later, they are making a sweep through the area and I am sitting in the old man’s briefing every morning. They found where the guy had left his clothes and his pack and got his journal. And he had come down the Ho Chi Minh Trail with a whole bunch of sappers. And there were like 2 or 3 guys left with him and he—that’s all that was left. And these guys were low morale and he was going to teach them how to do this to get the morale. He was a lieutenant. And I don’t know what happened to the other two but they didn’t attack the perimeter. I think they just decided the war was too much and quit. But interesting side light that, you know, that as I look at the stuff we went through and what I was trained for, I can’t imagine what it was like being on the other side. Down by Saigon they found some places underground that were whole motor pools. I mean, parking area. Mechanic bays. They had tunnels that went clear back underneath the border going into Cambodia that they could literally drive a truck down. And I am going, “What?!” We found one north of Pleiku. If you read the book, The 13th Valley, the guy says that the story is fictitious. I have been in the valley. The big tree that he talks about in the valley is there. I remember the battles that were there. We found tunnels up there. They found the vent hole for the tunnel. And he put, what we call a tunnel rat, down in the valley tunnel. And little guy in your unit, give him a .45, flashlight. He goes down this tunnel. You �don’t know what you’re going to find, you don’t know what’s in there. Could be booby trapped, it could be anything. (01:42:43) Veteran: But how far are you going to follow this trail? And if they got some of these tunnels that are long enough you can drive a truck in it, how far are you going to follow it? Well, he finally gave up and they brought in—we flew in gas generators and generated CS. Now, people think that this is a gas and it’s not. It is a persistent powder and we—persistent means it stays there. It’s there for days. You don’t go back in a week and it’s disseminated, it’s gone. It’s a persistent powder. So, if you go down that tunnel a week later, you’re going to stir up the gas. You’re going to stir up the tear gas and it is going to bother you. They pumped it in and pumped it in and pumped it in and pumped it in along with smoke and couldn’t find any place where it was coming out. When they set the charges and blew it, they had a spot that just sunk. Went for a mile or better. Just plop…dropped down into—crazy stuff. And you wonder how? Underground hospitals the same way. Foot operated section pumps. I don’t know how. You know? I have listened to a lot of people complain about the VA. I have listened to a lot of people complain about our military. And we have got our problems. (01:44:11) Veteran: Still, it’s the finest system in the world. With all of its problems, it still is. And here we complain about it. I don’t know how well they could complain. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: But I look at how hard we hit the Ho Chi Minh Trail. I look at the teams we put in that were working over the border. Special forces camps that were all up and down the border and literally these Montagnards, this was their backyard. You couldn’t go through without leaving sign you had been there. I don’t know how…I don’t know how the other side ever managed to �fight and keep going. And I was there after Tet. And that’s part of the reason we started getting nervous after several months and we weren’t getting hit as hard. What are they saving this up for? When are we going to get hit with all this stuff? What are they doing? And we did have places that went under siege. Ben Het was up at the tri border area where Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam come together. And it was under siege for months and months and months and months. And when it started, the Viet Cong planned everything out to just immense detail. They showed up with two P-76 tanks. These are the light, amphibious tanks. Of course, that’s kind of dumb because we have artillery there and they just leveled their guns and used their direct fire sights and shot them like shooting any other tank. And it didn’t make anything in the battle. But how do you get them in the jungle to that sight for the battle? And they had went through choreographing this fight to such an extent that when it started, within minutes, there were Viet Cong with satchel charges running around inside the compound. They had dug tunnels underneath the barbed wire and brought them up inside the compound. We didn’t know they were there. How do you do that? I mean, I don’t know. You know, I take a look at…and take my hat off to them. I mean, you want to talk about a soldier. I mean, we referred to them as Chuck. You know, the VC—the Viet Cong. A lot of respect. (01:46:26) Interviewer: Alright. Now, while a place like Ben Het is effectively under siege and so forth, would you go in and out of there? Or…? Veteran: We tried. At one point, they brought a C-130 in and did a low-level extraction because the runway was actually inside the barbed wire at that compound. And they dropped fresh rations because they had a regular mess hall there on the runway. They couldn’t get them off. They couldn’t get it off. The C-130 got so shot off—shot up—the wing fell off trying to go back to the Air Force base. That’s some pretty intense fighting. �Interviewer: And was that a special forces— Veteran: My wife wanted me to tell you about another guy. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we are talking about Ben Het and his story is entwined with Ben Het. Lieutenants going over to Vietnam to an artillery unit normally spend half their time in the field and half their time in a fire direction center, rear base, running the side sticks or playing with the phadactic desk computer to orient the guns to fire them and stuff like that. And they’re normally at a base stint some place, fairly safe. They’re not in the field anymore. And this one lieutenant they put out in the field. And he was good. But the Viet Cong, or the VC—the South Vietnam, when they got into a battle up where we were at, retreated. My brother-in-law says that the ARVNS down by Saigon were good fighters. And I have no reason to doubt. But up where I am? Most of them up where I was at? The judge gave an opportunity to go to war or go to jail. And they’d go out to the field and they would smoke their pot and do whatever and then wander back in later. I would sit in the old man’s briefings and the Vietnamese would go out and they’d have sporadic contact. Might have found a bloody bandage or something. We’d go out and, in the same area, and we’d collect broken weapons and drag trails and a bunch more blood and numerous contacts. The ROKs would go into the area and you’d have to send the deuce and a halfs in there to carry all the rice out and the weapons and— Interviewer: The ROKs being the Korean soldiers? (01:48:43) Veteran: Koreans, yeah. World of difference. The Vietnamese just, were I was at, were just not into the fight at all. And I could tell you some more stories about that that are just…But every time they got in contact, they’d pull back and our forward observer, this lieutenant, was left out �there alone. And I remember one night sitting up all night. I mean, we tried that first day to get him out and couldn’t. The aircraft got all shot up. But like I said, those aircraft took a lot of beating and came back and usually the crew didn’t get that injure—I mean, they talk about the life expectancy of a pilot but it wasn’t that bad. You’re in combat. Matter of fact, I always felt sorry for the guys on the ground. I mean, I go in, they’re all shooting at me. Yeah, okay. But when I leave, they are all shooting at me and then they go back to doing their fighting. But they are still there. I put up with it for how many minutes? Big deal. And anyway, this lieutenant was in a mortar crater and on the radio. Busy talking for help, directing artillery, trying to stay alive. We got him out. Last time that happened, we didn’t. We found him several days later along the major highway between Pleiku to Kontum. His arms were broken, wrapped backwards around a tree, that way they don’t bend, and nailed to the tree. His privates were cut off and shoved in his mouth. And whether he bled to death or choked to death, I don’t know. But he was a character. (01:50:24) Veteran: And when Ben Het was under siege, he was up there. Now, we talked about being out of contact with the world. You know, back here with everything. But you are out of contact with everything. And again, I was very unique because I am sitting in the old man’s briefings. He’s up at Dak To up there and there’s a staging field not too far from Dak To for the over the border missions. And there were all these supplies piled up. He looked, he said, “What are these things?” “Oh, that’s supplies to go to Ben Het.” “Well, why ain’t it at Ben Het?” “Well, Ben Het’s under siege.” “They’re what?! How long? What’s going on down there?” He said, “Well, they got to have this stuff.” Well, he disappeared. He come back with a jeep. He loaded up a whole bunch of this stuff, sets his M-60 in the jeep, takes off. Drives down the road and drives right down to Ben Het. Now, the fighting down there was so bad, and you were asking about it, �and I didn’t tell you. But the main gate there they had opened up to bring in a tank retriever. Now, a tank retriever has a V-12 continental engine in it. Don’t ask me how many 1000 horsepower. I don’t remember. But it is literally built to grab a tank with the treads off it and drive like a 60-70 ton tank off the battlefield. That’s a significantly built vehicle. And it’s total armaments of 50 caliber machine gun. Well you know, the enemy is going to shoot at this thing. I mean, it’s built robust and heavy. They let it get in the gate and they blew it up in the gate. That’s how intense the fighting was. Well, lieutenant comes driving down the road, drives around this thing in the gate, drops off the supplies. “Well, we will get you a room for the night. You’re going to be staying here.” “I can’t do that. I got to go out on patrol in the morning.” He gets back in the jeep, drives all the way back. Nobody shot at him, nobody—I think it’s one of those things where when you see the courage and you see somebody doing something that is really outstanding, you just sort of…But they never shot at him. They never not—just let him drive all the way down there and all the way back. And I was covering a convoy too that he was my liaison. (01:52:39) Veteran: And he was in the convoy. And he’s in the lead vehicle. I told you it wasn’t wrapped real tight. And all of a sudden, the whole convoy stops. And he jumps out of a vehicle and he runs into the jungle. I know this ain’t the call of nature. I mean, what is going on? And I am busy looking and a short while later he comes back and he throws something in the back of the vehicle and from where I am at, it looks like he’s got a bull whip. I have no idea what is going on. And I asked him and he just gives me a fluff off. Couple days later, and I’ve got pictures of him, he’s standing in front of our mess hall when I am going down there for breakfast. And he’s got his arms like this and this snake is this big around and its head is just barely touching the ground, its tail is barely—the snake was basking on the road and it went into the jungle. So, he went off the �road, in the jungle with his 45, shot it twice behind the head, had to bring the snake back to throw it in the vehicle, gone down the road. I mean…You talk about being loose wired. I think if you don’t get loose wired, I think you crack up. I mean, I have been police and I dealt with fire departments and ambulance crews and I am a wilderness EMT. I’ve been in an ambulance to get my certifications up and I ain’t interested. I don’t think you deal with those things day in, day out and don’t develop some sort of weird sense of humor. And after a while, you get sort of okay, I am getting shot at. So what? You know what, getting shot at don’t hurt. Getting hit is a bitch, but getting shot at don’t hurt. Interviewer Sure. (01:54:26) Veteran: I mean…I mean they ask me every day: shot at? Oh yeah. I get shot at a lot. Matter of fact, normal comment for me when they ask me what I did in Vietnam, I say, “I taught the enemy aerial gunnery.” They says, “What?” “Well yeah, I taught the enemy aerial. They weren’t very good.” But you know, that’s again that levity that you sort of come up with. Matter of fact, mom told me I ought to audition in here for you. I sang in a chorus at flight school, at primary flight school. And we went all over. We sang for the governor’s inaugural address in Texas. And one of the songs we did was a parody on the Green Beret. You remember Barry Sadler and the Green Beret? And it went, “Tennis shoes upon his feet, some people call him sneaky Pete, he sneaks around the woods all day, and wears that funny green beret, now it’s no jungle bore for me, I’ve never seen a rubber tree, 100 men will take the test, while I fly home and take a rest, silver wings upon my chest, I fly my chopper above the best, I can make more dough that way, and I don’t need a green beret.” Now, we had multiple verses to that. And we used to sing it up at the officer’s club and really get them wound up, you know. They finally came up with a parody to our song. And I didn’t get it. I wish I had. And he talks about when the shooting starts and the �mortars come in, we grab our choppers and fly away. And we did. You know I mean, because good humor has got to have a kernel of truth to it, right? And we just sat and laughed our tails off listening to them because they were complaining about us being cowards and running. And you know, anything but the truth. But that’s okay. I mean, that’s just the way things were. (01:56:26) Interviewer: Alright. When you were talking about sort of the Ben Het siege and it dragging on for months, did the base eventually fall? Or did the enemy go away? Veteran: They went away. I can’t remember a single battle that we lost. And yet coming home, I went to the VVA and the third time I was there, one of the guys said, “So, you’re the fellows that can’t win the war?” Oh, I was livid. I grabbed him and literally took him over the bar backwards. Interviewer: You mean VFW, not…VVA is Viet— Veteran: Yeah, VFW. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And I literally took him over the bar backwards. Looked him square in the eye and I said he was a dumb SOB. I says, “If we are told to advance, you advance. You’re told to sit down, you sit down. Told to retreat, you retreat. We ain’t ever lost a battle yet. Politicians are giving the war away and you’re blaming us.” And I walked out. Never went back. And I am not the only one that has had that type of experience. Interviewer: No, you are not. Veteran: Of…We didn’t have anybody next door to talk to. We didn’t know anybody else that had been there. Our families were split. It was difficult. I had my church, I had my family, and none of them ever once gave me the indication that I had done anything but what was requested �and honored and what was appropriate. I never had those kind of problems. But yet, I helped run some of the rec groups for the VVA, the Vietnam Veterans Association. Because the guys didn’t feel welcome any place else, we made our own group. And I helped run some of the rec groups for them. And it was enlightening because…I am unique. The Lord has given me a very special opportunity. Every place I have been, I’ve not had the typical view of the business or the job or anything else. I saw everything from Saigon to literally landing out in the middle of the field, resupplying some patrols out there. (01:58:34) Veteran: And everything in between and back and forth. On the police department, I walked the foot beats, 7 out of the 13 years, because I requested it. And I was on special assignment from the chief. When I wasn’t, I wasn’t normally in a regular car, although I got that once in a while, I was normally a back up car. So, it means I ran overlap on everybody else and if you got a bad call, I went along. Of course, if you were busy, I got your call and they’d send somebody from a neighboring district to back me up. But I got all the bad calls. Every place I have been, everything I have ever done has always been that way. So, Vietnam…Very interesting when you talk to guys from there and you deal with the group, what did he do? Was he assigned to a firebase? And he was at this little bitty outpost in the middle of the jungle with a 1000 foot of cleared space to the jungle and he was responsible for taking care of this gun and firing his gun. And he’s eating C rations and basically living in a bunker. Was he infantry and on patrol? My mechanic seldom ever saw anything but the rear base we were at. And yet they sprayed the rear base we were at 6 times with Agent Orange. He found out that through Freedom of Information Act. They fought him and weren’t going to help him. He literally went to a private clinic, had blood samples taken and proved that he had Agent Orange in his fat samples, because that’s where it tends to concentrate. (02:00:10) �Veteran: So, he went back through the Freedom of Information Act and the rear echelon base we were on got sprayed 6 times we were there. And I never had any doubt I was exposed because I am landing outside these firebases. Well, if I take a commander out there, you got this one helipad inside the base. Well, if I shot down and tie up the aircraft there, who else is landing? So, I’d pick up and go outside the base and land by the main gate and then walk back in. Well, you land out there and it’s a brown out. I mean, you look through your chin bubble and find a weed to land to because you lose all orientation. There’s nothing growing out there for 1000 yards. Why does nothing grow in the tropics in a jungle area? For 1000 yards? I mean, it takes somebody that is ding batty not to consider that oh, I have been exposed to a defoliant. Oh…So, yeah. You know, I was heavily exposed and then they are going to say, “Do you think you were?” Duh. Yeah. But everybody sees something different. I mean, I came closest to getting killed in Saigon. Flew the old man down there. Landed at Hotel Delta and he sent a jeep back for me and he told me he wasn’t going to need me until 4 o’clock, do whatever I wanted to do. Well, aircraft is where it is going to be watched. I don’t have to watch it. I am inside a secured area. Interesting term. You know, when they make a secure area, they never tell the enemy it is secure. It’s weird. Anyway, so I went with this PFC and he says, “What do you want to do, sir?” And I says, “Why, I’d like to get something to eat.” And he says to me, “Okay.” And I says, “Let’s go someplace where you can eat.” Well, he didn’t hear me. So, he took me to one of the officer’s clubs and this is a three-story building. And of course, I don’t know where I am at because I don’t know Saigon. And I take one look and I realize it’s an O club. So, I says to him—I says, “It’s an O club. You can’t come in.” I says, “Enter a place you know you can come. I’ll take care of your lunch.” I said, “Take us to a place where we can eat.” He says, “Oh, okay.” So, he drives �around the corner and after we went around the corner, somebody with a push cart had put it up in front of the officer’s club and blew the front end off the officer’s club. (02:02:31) Veteran: If I had been typical officer, I guess “typical officer.” I don’t know what a typical is. But I was raised you take care of your men. And there’ve been times where I landed with a Huey, when I am flying with one of the other units, and says, “I’ll stay with the aircraft.” Because somebody had to stay and let everybody else go get lunch. And I’ll go later. I was trained you take care of your men first. And there’s an interesting phrase they use: RHIP—Rank Has Its Privilege. But I don’t think most enlisted men understand. I flew the commander quite often right through meals. And I could object because I am a pilot and I have military regulation. And unless it’s a life or death combat situation, I am required to have my meals. He can’t fly me through dinner. So, I had arrangements I could go to the mess hall and eat any time I wanted. That sounds really great until you realize that I am skipping meals. Or maybe I don’t get any meal at all because of what’s going on. So, then all of a sudden being able to skip in line or get to the font or whatever ain’t such a big deal. So, a lot of these things where rank has its privilege really ain’t no privilege at all. It’s because of what you’re doing and it’s because of the way things are and…But I learned early: you get in the military, make friends as a supply sergeant and makes friends with the cook. And I flew commanders. So, I’m coming back to base, I’d call and say, “I am bringing the commander in, call his jeep. Tell him to be here. By the way, call over to the mess hall and tell the cook to meet me at, you know, if he wants to go for a ride.” (02:04:25) Veteran: We had on our base a two and a half ton truck with a fuel tank on the back. Now, a Huey burns a gallon of fuel a minute so for fueling hat Huey, and it runs for two hours and fifteen minutes, that’s quite a number of gallons. So, you can…You know, we have half dozen, �dozen smaller aircraft. And you’re going to fuel all these. Well, that tank doesn’t go a long ways. So, you’re refueling it every day, sometimes a couple times during the day. Nah. So, what we would do is we’d fly over to Camp Holloway, over to the Air Force base, we’d refuel over there because they had the big ground bladders and stuff like that and the pumps. Then we’d fly back, put it in the revetment, we’d just top the tank off. Well, if—you mind if I go over and refuel? Well, you take a ride around Pleiku? Nah, you’re going for your carnival ride, right? So, I got trading material left and right. And you know, you’re going to go to the cook, you’re going to go to the supply sergeant, have them take their camera, fly them around their base, fly them around Pleiku. Anything special you want to see? You know, fly them around there. Mom gets a kick out of me talking. You know, the Vietnamese, Orientals, communal showers, baths, stuff like that. It’s quite acceptable in their country. And there was a river junction out there on the rice paddies where they used to go swimming. It was a local bathing hole. And it was on the way if you’re low level and going around town. And the girls would stand up there on the bank and wave at you. They weren’t wearing bikinis. And the guys, “Whoa, whoa, go back and circle that, will you?” If you’re circling, the girls just love it. They’ll sit and wave at you all day long, you know. And the guys would just love stuff like that. But it was very different. (02:06:19) Veteran: So different to the point where you talked about being observant and that…I can remember I am covering out there and there’s a mama’s son. Every evening we’d go around our base and look for anything different. One ship was assigned to do that. And you go out and you go out and you look for anything different. And I’m out on a round one night. There’s this guy and this gal and figure they were a couple. She’s obviously pregnant and they’re working the rice paddies. He come by the next night; she ain’t there. He’s there. Come back the next night: she’s there, he’s there, here’s this little bundle on the rice paddy dike. I mean, you just…It’s like you �get to know some of the people. It’s funny because you see them everywhere. It’s like funny stuff. When the weather is bad, we were trained to fly instruments and that’s IFR, instrumental flight rules. But we didn’t do it. And if it was acceptable at all, we went down the road. Now, you’re 6 inches off the highway and doing 125 miles an hour and just hugging the highway. And you come down the highway like that and here’d be some little guy on his little 90cc moped, right. And he’d look at you and you’re going, “Hey, pay attention to the road paint there.” And he’d be in the ditch. Looked just like laughing. We didn’t win any friends. You know and he— do whatever you want and tell them to watch the road and he’s looking at you and plop, in the ditch. And I’d pick up and go over him. I ain’t going to hit him. But it is one of the things you remember: running down the highway. You know, we here…I was in a college class. Finance. And the guy next to me is a retired engineer. Captain—lieutenant colonel. And they brought up about poor. And I says, “We don’t have any poor.” And the class was 2/3 female and 2/3 black. And they just levitated. And “How can you say such a thing?” And they’re just… (02:08:29) Veteran: “I’ve been in a number of third-world countries and our poor live better than the top 10% in those countries.” I don’t remember in Saigon seeing many cars. Or in Pleiku. But them little mopeds going everywhere. And man, how you get 4 or 5 people on a moped? They got them. And if they got this pig in a basket they’re bringing, he’s on the moped. And how they get that—I don’t know how they do it. But it’s just—it’s a different world. And we just have no concept of how good we got it. Matter of fact, I sat one night on my bunk, thinking it was the first time that everything I owned went into a B4 bag and my briefcase. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And I was living well. (02:09:24) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_AnthonyF2140V1 Title A name given to the resource Anthony, Frank (Interview transcript and video, 1 of 2), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-06-29 Description An account of the resource Frank Anthony was born in Muskegon, Michigan on February 6th, 1947. He attended college at Ferris State University after graduating from high school in 1965. He joined the military in 1967 and attended basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky in May of the same year. He then did advanced infantry training (AIT) at Fort McClellan, Alabama. After completing AIT, he continued on to the Non-Commissioned Officer Academy and became a Warrant Officer. Frank also attended ranger/special forces training at Fort Benning, Georgia. He was participating in long-range recon school when his request to go to flight school was accepted. He went to flight school in 1968, which lasted for 9 months. He arrived in Vietnam in the middle of 1969. In Vietnam, he was the Safety Officer for a short period of time before becoming the Executive Officer of the Aviation Company, all the while working as a helicopter pilot. He was a part of the 52nd artillery division located in Pleiku, Vietnam. He flew a variety of helicopters while stationed in Vietnam. Frank was involved in several different skirmishes during his time in Vietnam, including the incursion into Cambodia. Frank also participated in jungle environmental survival training in Subic Bay, Philippines while on R and R. He completed a tour and a half before he left Vietnam on December 23rd, 1970. While in the military, Frank received numerous awards, including the award of the Red Banana. After leaving the service, Frank worked in law enforcement for many years. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony, Frank A. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4da245a5729832a667d0330b8c2e25a1.mp4 26983f37c058a62acae795cfa6a361c9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee7a5230e33e418ee8603120939566a3.pdf 0bfd435907af23ee457369d97f9b545f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Sarah Anderson Interview Length: (1:13.28) Interviewed by: Dr. James Smither Transcribed by: Chloe Dingens Interviewer: This interview is a joint production between the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project and the WKTV Voices. We are talking today with Sarah Anderson, a Marine Corps veteran who lives in Grand Haven, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay so Sarah, begin with some background on yourself and to start with where and when were you born? I was born in Muskegon, Michigan I… in 19... I’m sorry I’m a little nervous now. Interviewer: That’s okay! Alright I was born in Muskegon, Michigan I was born and raised in, on the west side of Michigan 1990. Interviewer: Okay, alright and what was your family doing for a living when you were growing up? My dad is a mechanical engineer, my mom was a stay-at-home mom. I have an older brother, a little sister, and a little brother so we kind of all just kind of grew up, I grew up in the same house I did for like 18 years of my life and stayed on the same spot. Interviewer: Okay, alright and then when did you graduate from high school? I graduated from Freedom Baptist High School in 2009 and that school’s in Hudsonville, it no longer exists right now but… Interviewer: Okay, alright so you went there and then what did you do after high school? I immediately joined the Marine Corps. �(1.44) Interviewer: Alright, now what motivated that? So, in high school I was an athlete and I was not a bad student, but I did not like sitting around and just, I needed to expend energy somehow and so I, my outlet was sports. And the thought of going to college immediately for me, I was a restless spirit so that kind of wasn't really like as exciting to me as it was for a lot of my peers at the time. My brother joined the Marine Corps in 2007 and when I was a sophomore in high school, I attended his graduation up from boot camp from Marine Corps Recruiting station like Marine Corps Recruit Depot there we go. Recruit Depot San Diego and I just saw like the- the transformation in him. He was not a very good student, and then he just had, was filled with all this pride at would he had accomplished, and the Marine Corps just seemed like very attractive to me at that time. It was just an outlet of just doing something, filling a purpose, or a mission, or a duty and I just, I don't know I just wanted that confidence. I envied it and when it was my time to decide I talked to a recruiter and decided that that's the challenge I wanted to take on. (2.56) Interviewer: Okay now before we continue with the story there was one thing, another component I wanted to add up, add in there; you were old enough to remember 9/11. Yes. Interviewer: And do you remember where you were and what happened that day? September 11, 2001 I was in fifth grade. Just came in from recess and I remember my teacher just had this like really sad look on her face and she turned on the radio and she said, “I need you all to sit down and be quiet.” And a bunch of rowdy kids were like some, we knew something was serious going on and we just listened. I didn't know what the World Trade Center was, like I �didn't know anything about New York other than you know Empire State Building and Lady Liberty, the Statue of Liberty. So, I learned real quick what the World Trade Center was the; Twin Towers and I didn't know exactly, it was just the radio so I didn't see any picture but they let us off of school early. All our parents came to pick us up, came home and just saw the news and I saw the towers fall on TV. (3.54) Interviewer: Alright and just kind of awareness of that, I mean does that in any way kind of shape your later decision to go in the service? Or was your decision really just a personal one? I think it shaped my decision for sure, it was a personal one but the momentum of the patriotism I think that I experienced as a child, like America's one of those unique countries that like it's very patriotic very proud of where we come from, and I mean our country has its issues but overall there is a unifying aspect of being an American. And around September 11th timeframe that even more so, we were all unified in our grief and in our passion to you know stay together and be strong. So, that impacted me as a child and when I saw my brother graduate from boot camp I, kind of like reaffirmed me and my personal decision too. It’s like this will be good for me and you know I really want to see like all different sides of America, and including the military, and the challenge really attracted me too. Like they, the other branches, the Marine Corps said, “hey, we’re the hardest one, if you can hack it, you can do it.” And I'm like, I'm gonna hack it, I can do it. It was just a really fun challenge to take on. (5.11) �Interviewer: Alright now when you were talking to the Marine Corps recruiter then, did you have any opportunity to- to choose types of training to get? Or were they offering you any particular programs? Or was it just go in and see where we put you? So, I did get to choose my MOS which is a military occupational specialty like my job in the military. So, males and females in the Marine Corps they get trained equally, trained the same. There's- there's different standards sometimes when it comes to PT like run times, but every PT is the same and every training is the same. There is no difference and so when- when you join the Marine Corps, you’re a Marine first and then you become your job as well. So, boot camp- boot camp was entirely like just breaking you down and training you to be a Marine. Interviewer: Okay well what- what MOS did you choose? I chose to be a public affairs specialist, at the time it was called combat correspondent public affairs specialist, now it is strategic communications and mass communicator. Like a lot of my MOS’ changed a little bit since I've left, I guess, we've combined the combat camera and public affairs into the same MOS so everyone's cross-training and they're doing some awesome stuff right now. (6.27) Interviewer: Alright so let's go back to boot camp, so where do you go for boot camp? I went to Parris Island, South Carolina that is the only place females are, well as of now are permitted to go to boot camp mostly because there aren’t a lot of females who take up that challenge so. The, financially that's just like the best place to go. It's definitely not a discriminatory thing I don’t want to say that. Interviewer: There are only two bases that- that train Marines at all so it's one or the other, and so they took Parris Island. Okay, now what time of year do you arrive there? �I arrived in August 2009, so it was just the tail end of the summer and it was hot, and it was I just remember feeling like I was gonna die. I've never felt anything that hot before, just the swampy blistering heat, it was awful. And then when I graduated in November it was snowing so, we did the crucible in the snow. It was the weirdest time of the year to go. Interviewer: Okay now what sort of reception do you get when you arrive at boot camp? (7.29) The reception to boot camp, it is not an easy one. It is the first experience you have with a drill instructor. You pull up at night, or at least I pulled up at night on a bus. And a drill instructor comes in, shots at you, tells you what exactly to do, follow exactly- exactly everything they say to the letter, and you rush out step on some yellow footprints, get yelled at some more, about like how to enter the hatches, how to get started in boot camp, and then you go from there. Interviewer: How to enter the hatches? So, or like how to like what hatches to enter if you will. We, there's a sign in Parris Island above the doors that say, this really inspirational quote that's not coming to mind right now, I can look it up but it's like “through these hatches are those who train to be the most… America’s fighting force…” or something. I’m sorry I totally just slaughtered that. Interviewer: That’s okay, but a hatch is like a door, right? So, the Marine Corps uses Navy terms. Interviewer: Yes. (8.31) Because we're a department of the Navy so, yeah through, we use hatches or door, portholes, windows, deck is the floor. And in bootcamp it's like we have to be taught a new language and these drill instructors are even more frustrating because they just passed an entire cycle of �Marines that just graduated boot camp who were, you know ready to be Marines going back to people who have to be taught, “this is a deck. This is a hatch,” and it was just kind of, I'm sure it was entertaining for them or infuriating I don't know but. Interviewer: Okay now when your group, when you come in out of the bus was the bus load all women or was it a mix of men and women? The bus load was a mix of men and women. Interviewer: Okay so that initial thing, they’re just bringing you all in. Then did they separate you out into different companies with women's training different/ separately from men or how do they arrange that? For processing we're kind of mixed because, you know we're just getting all separated. Like the phone calls home and everything, but then they eventually like separate us males and female, yeah that's just part of it. (9.31) Interviewer: Okay, alright and then sort of what's kind of the sequence of events in boot camp? What are you doing first, what do you do later? At the time there's three cycles, now I believe there's four but at the time there's three cycles. And in cycle number one is just kind of processing, getting your uniforms, getting you’re your boots learning how to do basic things like make a rack and fold a towel and be comfortable being around, I was in a squad bay, with 80 women. A squad bay is a big room full of bunk beds. Like no privacy whatsoever our bathroom doors were sawed off we weren't allowed to have that, even that kind of privacy. So, we had three round, rounded showerheads to share between 80 women and we only had like about a minute each to shower all at once. So, we had to figure it out, and so, it was just kind of getting comfortable. I'd never touched a weapon before, we got issued �rifles and like what is this? I yeah and I it didn't grow up with guns or weapons or anything. So, just kind of learning how to do my hair; the Marine Corps is pretty strict hair standards when it comes to pull your hair back in a bun, no fly always. Learning the language, learning the basic rules, learning even the basic core values and everything. It’s just kind of what you do in the first phase; learning how to march like it's not like simple like- like you think marching in the movies, it's like in sync it's an in-sync motion with your squad and your team so. Second phase is honing more combat skills and rifle range, so you like learn how to shoot, you learn how to move together as a team, more drilling obviously you learn how to march even better. And learn, yeah, learned how to patrol and just kind of basic- basic combat maneuvers. Interviewer: Do you get hand-to-hand combat stuff too? We do, we get something we call MCMAP it's Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. It's affectionately known called McNinja, yeah just basic self-defense technique. Basics on, how to punch, how to block, how to maneuver and in boot camp you just get the basic level through your Marine Corps career you can progress in... we have a belt system like a lot of martial arts programs do but it's tan belt in boot camp and just basic leg sweeps and stuff like that. So… (11.59) Interviewer: How to knock down someone who's bigger than you were. Yes absolutely, and which actually was kind of nice because I was a small eighteen-year-old female at the time, so it was just nice to know how to do small joint manipulation or basic selfdefenses. It was never intro; I was never introduced to anything combat related. So, that was second phase and then third phase we continue all of that into a culminating event, we learned pugil sticks, we continued MCMAP, we should be nearly experts at drill at this point when it comes, like marching and formations and stuff so we do that competition. We do, you know… �what else do we do? Well basically it's just honing those skills, more physical training PT and to accommodating event which we just called The Crucible which is an event where we I believe we did a 9-mile hike. It was three days of kind of surviving as a team, doing team building activities and exercises, and combat techniques like crawling under barbed wire, and running up range, and shooting, and like it just it was just a lot of culminating things that we just learned the entire time there. The entire 13 weeks really, so it was an exhausting three days and we were given a limited number of MREs which are like military rations to kind of like, so we could teach ourselves how to like pace ourselves when it comes to if you have this much food like this is how you survive off of this much, you don't eat it all at once or you're gonna starve kind of thing. At the very end we're all beaten, exhausted, dirty, and tired and we're all marching back together, and we're all like singing and- and chanting cadence and getting motivated because at the very end we line up. Barely standing because we’re exhausted to be given our Eagle of an Anchor which signifies you have earned the title of marine. (14.06) Interviewer: Okay now go- go back to the beginning of things in this first- first few weeks. How easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Marine Corps? Everyone adjust differently and I think basically it depends on personality and how you grew up. I've seen girls who went to boot camp got screamed at, it didn’t faze them because they've been screamed at all their lives. Me, I grew up in a very Christian religious Bible Belt of Michigan it's what kind of the reputation is. So, it was a very conservative area and I was- I was never put down as for being a female or anything but it was just kind of like a cultural thing that you just get assumed that you're gonna be a wife and a mom one day, and you don't go and join the military because that's just not culturally what we do. And not anyone looked down on me I'm �not trying to bash my- the way I grew up it was, I grew up very well I was very blessed. But it was it was a very different thing for me, especially in the Christian school I went to that like women don’t, like ‘what? Why?’ kind of thing. And I, when I got to an area where people from all different backgrounds and all different walks of life where all in one room getting screamed at by these women that I thought like where demon possessed at the time. I don't know I was just an ignorant 18-year-old. I thought it was the hardest thing at the time that I had ever been through. And mentally I had to adjust and emotionally I had to adjust, and it was just… I didn't really know what I was getting into. At first it was difficult but then there's just something in you that clicks, that is like I can do this, like I want this. If you want it bad enough, you're gonna complete it, you're gonna overcome it and I think that's accredited, I think to some of my drill instructors too. Not only like beat like discipline in me, but like the confidence as well and at the time I hated everything about them but you know, I there is one drill instructor in particular that I modeled my entire leadership style after the next eight years of my life. (16.25) Interviewer: Okay, what was it about how she did things that stuck with you? So, this drill instructor, her name was Sergeant Feight all my drill instructors were sergeants which is kind of uncommon in the drill field or in boot camp environment. Usually if staff sergeants or gunnery sergeants like high-ranking but my drill team was all sergeants and Sergeant Feight she was- she was very like just the way she carried herself. She was our senior drill instructor so her role on the drill team was to kind of be available, be strict, and be disciplinarian, but be also available for us. Because you know if something is wrong and we're too afraid to tell the drill instructors somebody needs to know and like she’s, so she made herself in her leadership role that was available to us. There was one time like she, I don't know it's just �the- the confidence she had in herself and the way she carried herself was really inspiring to me. There was one time a male drill instructor… a male drill instructor insulted one of our recruits on the rifle range, because we trained at the guys during that week. And our senior drill instructor Sergeant Feight found out about it and I don't think her intention was to shame him in front of everyone, but she did it in a way that as a no BS mentality. It was an example to all the girls, all 80 women in my platoon to not take that just because like it doesn't matter what rank, doesn't matter what status you are, who you are, you like you- you have the confidence, you earn you’re earning this, you're working on it you don't get to take that, and she stood up for us but also made herself an example of how to stand up for yourself, and like do not, like don't- don't take that basically and come to find out the next eight years of my life dealt with that a lot. And it just I don't know I really appreciated her example and when I became a sergeant, I wanted to treat my junior Marines in a way that was fair, inspirational, and in a way that could build their confidence. Interviewer: Right, now when you and did your brother tell you anything about what to expect in boot camp? (18.59) I don't know if I really want this part on here but me my brother and I don't really get along that well. So, like we have a relationship if you will, but he didn’t really kind of prepare me very well. Interviewer: So basic question, so it wasn't they're gonna do X Y & Z and this is why they're doing it? Yeah so, my brother was a relatively new Marine when I enlisted so he was still trying to find his feet in the Marine Corps. �Interviewer: Right. So, I didn't really understand a lot other than they might yell at me, or not might, they will yell at me. But I didn't realize what exactly was going to happen and so when I enlisted my recruiter didn't really know much about the roles female Marines play. I just assumed they were gonna be equally treated which, they were, like they- they same PT schedule standards same training and everything. But I mean we had a little difference when it comes to standards, like when it comes to PT fitness test. Interviewer: Right. If you will, but he didn't really know much at all, so I had to figure a lot of it out by myself. (20.15) Interviewer: Alright so- so okay now were there other women you were training with who when in the end couldn't take it? Yes. Interviewer: Okay what proportion do you think? I think I graduated with 40. Interviewer: That was out of 80? Yeah. Interviewer: Now where some of those people gonna be recycling and coming through again? Some were hurt, so some women dropped out of boot camp because they were injured, or they were recycled to another platoon because they were injured and needed to recover. Interviewer: Right. That- that, that's very common and so I'm not saying they failed or couldn't hack it just... �Interviewer: Oh yeah no, it happens to men too yeah. But a lot of women just got there and realized this is not for me and those women are weeded out real quick. You will not survive boot camp unless you want to survive boot camp and the fastest way out of boot camp with an honorable dis… or the fastest way out of boot camp is to get through it. (21.04) Interviewer: Alright now was there a point in boot camp when you figured out what it was that they were doing, or did that only really occur to you after you were done? It kind of it occurred to me after I was done, how effective the training was or what the training actually did to me. At the time like I- I knew that oh they're trying to discipline us and stuff but it was just- it was just like a different environment than I was used to so I didn't really comprehend like what was going on and how the training was breaking me down and building me back up. Interviewer: Okay now physically were you in good enough shape to handle all the stuff they had you do? Physically I yes, I was an athlete in high school, so I just transitioned right into it. I it was not… so I've never been a phenomenal runner but I can run, and I can do push-ups and, you know at the time I was really nervous because you know it's the Marine Corps and but they make the training in a way that starts you from the beginning. So, not everyone was where I was physically because I was an athlete, not everyone was an athlete, so they keep that in mind. They start everyone off at the same level. So, yeah while I was nervous like I had other reasons to be nervous other than physical training but they- they are realistic about training in my opinion or were at the time. �Interviewer: Alright anything else about those first 13 weeks that kind of stands out in your memory? There doesn't have to be. (22.48) There are a few, I guess it's just, it’s just a long time ago so- so there was this one time on the rifle range and speaking about women getting weeded out. There's this one time on the rifle range that there was this girl who intentionally kept missing because she wanted out of boot camp and she didn't like it, and she made it through first phase, and I remember thinking it might have been me being naive. But I'm like well why would you sign up? And I, why don't you want this? I want this, like this is just a foreign concept to me and… but yeah if the girls who wanted out found a way. And… but I didn't, I wanted to complete it and like there's no challenge that I've ever not really given my whole heart into. Whether I completed it or not, but I was not gonna not complete boot camp, and I think receiving the Eagle of an Anchor at the end was one of the proudest moments in my life, if not the proudest. And it sets the tone for every marine going into the Marine Corps, every Marine receives an Eagle of an Anchor, everyone gets it pressed into their palm and everyone remembers that, what that feeling is like and that kind of unifies us throughout like our service and whenever a Marine starts kind of losing their way another Marine can be like, “hey do you remember that feeling? Do you remember what it was like? This is why we act the way we act. This is why we hold on our courage and commitment in our hearts is because of that moment; because we all felt it and we all felt that pride, and so you got to do your duty the way that you're expected to. The way you committed to.” And yeah, it's just kind of a unifying thing. (24.33) �Interviewer: Now once you complete those 13 weeks do you now go to a school for your MOS or is there any additional training that everyone gets before that? So, in the Marine Corps after boot camp we go to Marine Combat Training or for infantry guys they go to infantry ITV (infantry training battalion.) So, as at the time females weren't allowed in the infantry so all females went to Marine combat training and it wasn't just female exclusive it was every Marine that was not signed up to be an infantryman. Interviewer: Okay. So, that's the only separation. Every Marine needs combat training. Infantry Marines go to infantry training battalion because that's doubles as their job school. Interviewer: Right. And we just get the basic month of down-and-dirty, this is how we do things, this is how you patrol, this is how you guard a tower, this is how you use a radio, this is how you treat you know medical like I need this various medical, like an injury… Interviewer: Wounds, injury. Yeah wounds and so it was like down and dirty a lot of information packed into that month. (25.42) Interviewer: Okay and where did you do that? North Carolina camp Johnson. Interviewer: Okay is that part of Camp Lejeune? It is within Camp Lejeune yes. Interviewer: Okay, alright you get- you get that for a month and how did that go for you? It was interesting it was my first time working with males and I mean it felt… I mean it's a tough month they're hard on you. Like, but I was kind of like expecting that because boot camp was �hard on us too. So, after boot camp you get 10 days leave and then you go to Marine Combat Training and you learn more in depth about rifle training, about patrolling, about basic combat techniques that expounded upon what you learned on in boot camp. And yeah, that’s all I remember. Interviewer: Okay, alright, so you kind of get that, so you've got that and then where do you go next? After Marine Combat Training you go to your MOS school or your military occupational specialty school. I signed up for public affairs, so I went to Fort Meade, Maryland it's a joint base. It was an army base, but it was joint schooling. So, I went to- I went to school with every service Navy, Air Force, Army, Coast Guard even so did I forget one? (27.04) Interviewer: Well no because you are, Army, Navy, Air Force yeah- yeah Coast Guard, yeah yes that's all. Okay now how was that experience different from your Marine Corps training? It was different because every branch is a different culture and I remember being really motivated and really excited about being a Marine and you know just a little nineteen-year-old me and so there was a lot of you know trash-talking between like all services because we were all brand new and we all wanted to be like “yeah we're the best” kind of thing and that's just, it's just how it was. And it was my first experience with that. It was actually really fun getting to know other services, it wasn't just trash talk we actually built relationships and we learned things about other services and other people our age who made different decisions and what services they made, it was- it was a good experience. The schooling itself taught journalism, it was three months I can’t remember if it was three or five months, but I think I was there for five months, �but the school was three. They taught us basic photography, basic journalism, how to write stories, how to interview people, how to record people for video interviews, down-and-dirty journalism, multimedia journalism and that's what it was. And after I completed school, they gave me orders to the Marine Corps Combat Center Twentynine Palms. (28.27) Interviewer: Okay, now at the school itself I mean did that work based off like a nine-tofive job as opposed to kind of other sorts of training that you had or were they still waking you up in the middle of the night or was there still a military training aspect to the school or was it now more professional? The school were definitely was a more professional environment, but they were still military training. We woke up super early to go run together or go PT together. We, the Marines all were in one barracks type building we each got our own rooms, or we shared rooms with people but we, it wasn't a squad-based setting anymore. But yeah no, we all woke up together well PT’d, showered up, went to school together till 5 in the evening and then we had the evenings off. Interviewer: Okay and what proportion of that group was female? So, in my MOS, it was probably about 50/50. My MOS is pretty- pretty mixed-gender, Interviewer: Right. And the diversity is pretty good. The Marine Corps overall when I was in only 6% of the Marine Corps was female so that is rare to see a 50/50 mix between female/ male. (29.44) Interviewer: Okay so now you head off to your first base and it's at Twentynine Palms, California describe that place a little bit. �So, the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms, California; well from a Michigan girl, never really left Michigan other than the occasional family vacation. I’d never been to the desert before and I heard stories, I heard stories that it was like the heat like the worst base to go to and no Marine wants to get stationed in Twentynine Palms and I was like “oh no,” I was like freaking out. Like my first duty station is in Twentynine Palms, well I kind of learned to embrace the desert. The desert California’s beautiful and if you go in there with a mindset of “oh I'm gonna have a terrible time,” you're gonna have a terrible time and I kind of learned that. It took me a few months to adjust because I wasn't used to anything other than East Coast, but what really kind of on my personal time attracted me to that area was Joshua Tree National Park; I love climbing and hiking and it was just beautiful. The desert flowers in the spring it’s just, it was- it was really great community, the actual base where I worked there's some really great people, people who love the area and love the Marine Corps just kind of stick around and you kind of get to know the culture of the base itself even though Marines are always transitioning in and out, the culture of the area it's really a family type environment. The combat center was very fast-paced, we had battalions it's- so the combat Center is really fast-paced we had it- it was a transition base so before units went to Afghanistan or Iraq they would have to train in Twentynine Palms, they would have to get desert warfare trainings so we had battalions coming through all the time. It was like very fast we had deployments leaving and coming and buses leaving and coming full of Marines all the time and I was a journalist; I was a photographer, but I was stationed at headquarters battalion, so I wasn't allowed to deploy with them. And I think my biggest frustration was building relationships with these guys, spending time with them in the field, taking their picture, interviewing them, and watching them leave on buses, and watching most of them come home seven months later and not all of them and that was, as a Marine who �wanted to be there to document their stories and stuff it was it was frustrating that I couldn't go with them. (32.23) Interviewer: Okay and then sort of what kind of group were you working with? Was there a certain set of people you were normally with and how large was it or how many people were you…? You mean stationed in my section? Interviewer: Yeah. So, in headquarters’ battalion, it's kind of like, I used to say its kind of like the misfits of- that run the base; we have, it’s a unique battalion because there's sections of people all in one battalion. Then we have the supply section, we have the transportation section, we have motor pool, we have the admin section, we have the journalists like that was us, there was combat camera, there's just all like the, all a bunch of sections making up one battalion. So, whereas normal battalions’ kind of interact all day or a lot and they get to know each other and what companies and stuff, we were so separated, and we only got together during unit PTs or special events. We tried but I mean you, so each section became very close and I had probably eight or nine Marines in mine maybe ten at sometimes and we work at the base newspaper at the time, before the base newspaper disappeared. So, every week we had to tell stories about what's going on in the base and I'd take pictures of Marines in training. So, since there was so much transition of battalions coming in before Afghanistan I would take a lot of like I'd go out to the field a lot with them and just kind of document them before they head out, and kind of tell the story about the training that they're being prepared for before they go over there. But yeah so it was- it was �just cool, I got to know a lot of people in my own battalion only because my job required so many stories to be put in the newspaper that I went out and like actively sought them out. (34.08) Interviewer: Alright and when you're, you want to interview people and so forth what kind of responses did you get? So, Marines are typically pretty private people, or not they don't… I don't know it some- some Marines are really helpful, and some were like “I don't want to be in the media.” It was kind of frustrating at times because I understood that, like absolutely we don't join the military for recognition or fame or to have our face out there, but as they got to know me and like kind of trusted that I can do my job well and will make them look good basically or will support them. A lot of the pictures and videos I took were for the families and were for people back home it wasn't necessarily for that Marine, it was to tell their story and well as some of them didn't want their story being told, it was important to tell their story and that's kind of, yeah the angle I took it from and they kind of understood that. So, yeah, I understood I, that some of them didn't want their faces out there but you know I had to do my job, so I figured it out. Interviewer: Alright and you kind of learned in a way sort of how to talk to them or approach them, did you get a sense of how they're gonna respond as you're gonna… or how to deal with people of different personalities and feel that out? (35.39) Absolutely, you know actually being a Marine Corps journalist instead of just a journalist coming on a base really helped because we had that bond already, or that mutual understanding of what being a Marine is and so like no one was like just outright disrespectful at least not to my face about not wanting their you know their presence out there, because like we were both �Marines; there was like that mutual respect there. So, as a journalist coming in not a lot of them, or yeah most of them have never been in the military, don't know what the standards are: how you conduct yourself professionally, how we hold each other accountable, and you know what being a Marine actually means so. Interviewer: Alright now would units coming back from Afghanistan or Iraq if there were any at that point, did they go back through Twentynine Palms or? Not every one of them, so say a unit deploys out of Camp Lejeune so they go to Twentynine Palms to train, go back to Camp Lejeune and deploy from there but we had infantry battalions at Twentynine Palms that were stationed there so they did go to the sandbox as they called it, they'd go to Iraq or Afghanistan and they'd come back and just stay in Twentynine Palms because that's where they lived. (36.56) Interviewer: Okay and then did you interview some of them after they're back or was that not part of your job? I did. I think most of the stories that were impactful were off the record though because of those relationships built. Interviewer: Yeah. So, I wouldn't say that I wrote a lot of stories about you know that their personal experiences other than the ones that kind of like “hey like this is what we did, this is just letting you know, like this is what the Marines this is how the Marines are doing awesome things and just keeping you informed.” But like when they came to a real like down and dirty stuff it was more important to me to build relationships and be there, be available for those people to like talk in a trusting environment without being like fear of on-the-record. �Interviewer: Now on some level is that kind of part of what your job is or was that just some way that you dealt with things yourself? I think it's just being a Marine, you know there's a kind of a joke between all the branches that the Marines of the brainwashed ones and you know the Marines are like a cult or, you know it's probably true. I don't know we just have like a special understanding of what it's like to be a Marine and we just have a lot of pride in who we are and I mean every service is respectable and you- you're giving up your time and you're serving your country and stuff but you know as a Marine I'm a little biased because like we have that understanding and it's- it's funny to you know trash talk each other sometimes like I got some really good Airforce friends that just mess with me all the time and I'm just like, “hey you know whatever you right we are a cult.” (38.39) Interviewer: Okay now how long were you based in Twentynine Palms? I was in Twentynine Palms from ‘09 to ‘13 and then I was transferred to Marine Corps Base Hawaii Kaneohe Bay in 2013 and then I stayed on island till 2016 but I transferred to Camp Smith while on Island which is another base on Island. Interviewer: Okay, now so you've got basically four years at Twentynine Palms. Did your job change over that time or were there things about the environment that changed at all? In Twentynine Palms no, I worked in a newspaper the entire time. Interviewer: So, they still had a newspaper by the time you left? Yeah and then when I transfer to Marine Corps Base Hawaii, they're just like on the tail end of their newspaper so I kind of started working at their newspaper for a year but then there became a huge social media focus. It was, in my job field it's different because communication overall changes, and grows, and develops. I mean when I was a kid I had a, like we didn't have cell �phones and then I had my first flip phone when I got my license but like barely; it was prepaid minutes and now like I see you know nine year old’s having iPhones. It's just- it's just crazy how technology and communication changes over time. So, for a very old school environment like the Marine Corps that is very stuck in tradition it is really difficult to tear their newspapers away from them and be like this is not how we communicate anymore, we communicate via social media, through like online presence, through building relationships, having a continual presence. And the Marine Corps actually is leading all the branches I would say in their social media presence. The, their branding is amazing and how they've taken it but there's still like the oldschool mentality of a lot of the Marines to just kind of like, wait but we need our newspaper, and I’m like it's not how people communicate anymore. So, it's- it's actually transitioning out and I have loved that I've gotten to see the Marine Corps grow from one aspect to another. (40:44) Interviewer: Okay now how long was your original enlistment? My original enlistment is four years. Interviewer: Okay so at a certain point you decided to re-up then? Yes. Interviewer: To stay in there. So, when did you make that decision? I was in Twentynine Palms and I was on my last year of enlistment and something hit me that, I'm not ready to get out, like what am I gonna do go to college? Like and I’m obviously I'm just going to college now, there's nothing wrong with going to college, but I just I wasn’t ready. I was- I was disappointed because I worked so hard to be a Marine and I wanted to deploy and I wanted to do all these amazing things and I, as much as I loved Twentynine Palms or grew to love Twentynine Palms I never left it, I never did anything that I wanted to do so I- I realized �that I got to reenlist because I got to see what else is out there in the Marine Corps like I love the Marine Corps so maybe they'll deploy me next enlistment. But there was a time, yeah this is a little more personal but I don't mind sharing it; so the Marine Corps is… attracts very ‘good old boy’ type mentality like, country boy traditional and that very… attracts very progressive women and those two cultures don't mix very well. So, a lot and I'm not speaking, I’m not speaking for all individuals, every individual is different. But I'm just telling you from my experience how I saw things. I know what I saw was a lot of men very hesitant, or still feeling very new that there's female leadership above them and that was not an easy thing to maneuver through. I never experienced sexism before, I never experienced a culture where sexual assault, I wouldn't say they have a rape culture in the military I would say that it's a very real thing. And they, like they do their best to train and inform and educate like I- I really think they try but it's a very real thing and- and a culture like that, being thrown into a culture like that as a female just from a gender perspective was not easy. I felt like I worked twice as hard for half the credit a lot. So, picking up rank I was proud of myself but not everybody else was. So, having a culture like that there was, when it came to reenlisting I was really thinking about getting out because it was kind of exhausting to adjust to that but I had a Gunnery Sergeant who was, I was a corporal at the time so I was an E-4, he was an E-7 a Gunnery Sergeant he told me that you know, “Anderson you single-handedly changed my mind about female Marines, you are a good example and the Corps would be losing a good Marine. Wouldn't it be worth it to reenlist and change one more mind?” And I'm like that's it, I'm reenlisting, like I got to, that like if, that was just, that meant a lot to me when he said that. And just you know there are stereotypes that are- that are ahead of you as a female Marine and, or as I’m sure a female military in general. I can't speak for any other branch but there’s stereotypes that you constantly have to battle and even if you never live up to one of �them, you still have to battle it just because of how you're born. And so, when he encouraged me like that and just kind of basically told me that I was breaking glass ceilings without even knowing it. I was just like, yes let's do it like I’ll reenlist, and you know what I actually did, I picked up rank I gained more confidence I got more leadership roles and I became an example for, or I strove to become an example for other female Marines to the best of my ability at least. (44.44) Interviewer: Okay now when you reenlist do, they offer you a chance to- to pick your next station or at least put in requests or how do you wind up in Hawaii? So yeah when you reenlist the first time you get an incentive and my incentive was a deployable unit in Hawaii so that's how I got Hawaii. They're like okay you were in the desert for four years, I'm sure we can get you, we can you know pull some strings and get you a tropical island so that was nice but when I got to the unit it transitioned into a non-deployable unit or it'd be option of deployment went away. Interviewer: Okay. And so, I was like man… alright we can make the best out of this, but I ended up falling in love with the Island of Hawaii and I did go, I did travel a little bit but not nearly as much as I wanted to. Interviewer: Now which island is the base on? Is it on Oahu or is it on the Big Island or? Yeah both bases are on Oahu. (45.39) Interviewer: Okay. Actually, every military base is on Oahu, so. �Interviewer: Alright. Okay so yeah now what was- what was what were you actually doing on that base because you said the newspaper goes away so then what are you doing? So, I, we had a public- public affairs is the military version of public relations in this equivalent at least into the civilian world. So, we did a lot of media escorts, we did talking points, interviews, I still interviewed people, I still wrote stories but it was more like a social media aspect and it was just different focus, different platform we use. So, my job didn't change it was just a heavier focus on how do we effectively communicate to people or how do we, what's the best way? And we did a lot of media training as well for units, to how to use their social media accounts, how to, every battalion has like their own Facebook so how do you use it? We’ll will teach you how so… yeah that's kind of, we’re the communication people. Interviewer: Alright now did you have to learn a lot of that stuff yourself or had you or far, were you far enough along with that kind of thing by the time you got there that you could just step into it? (46.43) A lot of it was experimentation on social media, like do videos work better? Or do photos work better? And since communication is always changing and evolving it was kind of both selftaught and as a team. We learned together; we did a lot of experimenting as a unit like of like ten people. We, let's try new things out and that's what I really appreciated about my MOS is it was a very creative environment and in a military setting you don't get a lot of creative environments and that's why I just I loved my job so much we got to, I got to meet new people every day and I got to experiment and create graphic designs and news articles and it's just I loved it. It was just a lot of freeing artistically but while still holding the standard of discipline and being a Marine. �Interviewer: Okay in terms of the kind of content of the stories and stuff that you're doing how was it different in Hawaii from Twentynine Palms? Where you talking to different kinds of people or people who have done different things, or did it all seem pretty much the same? (47.43) So similarly, the bases both had infantry battalions so there was that culture there, but in Hawaii because of its location in the Pacific we were closer to a lot of different countries and we did a lot of exercises that promoted like regional security. We’d would work with Australia or Indonesia, and Japan, Korea we- we’d partner with these nations to do training exercises just in case something happens like the Earthquake in Nepal when everyone started sending- sending aid, we had to know how those countries functioned that way we can like build up security in the region. Interviewer: Right. So, we did I worked, I was so blessed I worked with like a bunch of different countries and learned you know how they do their- their routines and their ranges and I have made friends from all over the world, it was- it was fun experience. Interviewer: Okay what, were there things that you learned that kind of surprised you about these people or these places? (48.49) You know one yeah, a bunch of, I learned a bunch of different things. One thing I did notice on a few training exercises is how well some militaries integrated their females and males, like as a female Marine that was like my biggest struggle was always being out there with the guys as the photographer but usually I was the only female in the field so a lot of guys didn't know how to �handle me and they eventually warmed up to me after a few days you know, but like at first it's like, “what, why is she here? She's not a… in the infantry.” At the time females weren’t allowed in the infantry. So, New Zealand, Canada, and Australia in particular. I don't I mean, I don'tactually don't know all the issues with their services that they deal with but in the training exercises they just, it just felt like they were so in sync the females and males. A lot of like Canada in particular their army there seemed to be their average demographic or average age was a little bit older than ours. Like late 20s, early 30s so there was like a maturity aspect when it came to like integrating males and so I just- I just like watched them be like, while they can do it, we can do it. Why are we freaking out? That females are gonna be allowed in combat roles? Because they're doing it in these countries already and they're fine you know. It just gave me perspective and I really appreciated seeing those different nations and like the pluses and minuses on both and how we can improve and how, what how they're doing things and it was just, it was cool. Interviewer: Okay and did anything stand out to you about say a Japanese or Koreans? (50.25) So Asian- Asian countries they- they don't really integrate their females very well. So, when they saw me a lot of them were just kind of like, like looking at me like I was a unicorn and I thought that was funny, I got used to it after a while because we worked so often with other nations. But it was just culturally like they don't have a lot of women heavily involved in their military. Not saying that you know women don't have opportunity in those countries but in their military it was just kind of weird that you know like I was just like a different foreign concept to them and so that was in… that was interesting to kind of… it was, I thought it was funny and but it was good, like I got to know them I'm a very friendly personality so I wasn't afraid to you know try �and like I didn't obviously didn’t know the language but I'm not afraid to look kind of stupid to get to know someone if you will, so. The Indonesians were fun, they would teach me somesome words and they just thought it was so funny like my accent and just I don’t know, it's good I love my job for that to meet all these new people. Interviewer: Okay and like how large was the section you were working with there and did you have a team and so forth? (51.47) So, we had like I said, like a team between like eight and ten Marines in the public affairs and then combat camera had like anywhere between like fifteen to thirty depending on the shop, but when it comes to like video shoots and training, you're by yourself. So, you learned how to work by yourself very like quickly. And you have to get all these, the missions and deadlines done while coordinating what you need done with like for example an infantry battalion who doesn't need Wi-Fi to upload photos and get them online, how do you function? Like how do you meet your deadlines while being in the middle of a desert or being in an island with no connectivity and so you have to problem-solve. So, individual working and problem-solving are like two skills that I really picked up. Working with like, working at my job remotely. Interviewer: Okay now when you'd go in the field like that what kind of equipment did you take with you? (52.45) So you take your basic stuff like- like packs and your food and your, all your gear and everything but also like my camera gear and computer were always with me because I needed to get photos like put together, video projects put together, stories put together, and the soonest opportunity I could to upload them I did. But I had all that extra gear too. �Interviewer: Okay and the, I guess the camera equipment I mean how large a camera were you carrying? So, we had DSLRs which is like an awesome digital camera that does video and photos. So, we are past the days of me carrying this giant video camera with me so, it's like the same, so like yeah, the Canon- Canon just a normal camera kit that like professional photographers carry out now is about the size of the kit I had. Interviewer: Okay but that’s sort of on top of a lot of essentially the regular military kit or at least if you're carrying your own food, water, things like that plus now did you have a laptop computer or a tablet or what where you using at that point? (53.46) I had a laptop. Yeah so, you're right when it comes to like long distance hikes and stuff all thethe same- the packs that the guys had to carry; I had to carry that and camera gear. Now I- I understand every guy had a different like weapon to carry too, like infantry guys have machine guns and mortar tubes and like a bunch of other stuff additionally that I didn't have to carry but the average standard pack we had and then I had the camera gear as well.. Interviewer: Alright so that- that original Marine training and so forth comes in handy at that point because you’re used to go marching around places with a pack and all that kind of thing. Okay, and are there other particular things about that first assignment in Hawaii that kind of stand out for you? (54.33) Hawaii afforded me a lot more opportunity I think than Twentynine Palms and now I like I said I like that base and it was fun learning the combat side of things; the desert warfare type things if you will. But Hawaii I don’t know, I just, it's because there was an Air Wing there that was more �available, I got to fly around more, I got to get on ship in Hawaii like I'd never been on a Navy ship before. I, you know the Navy ship was a good experience but I'm really glad I didn't join the Navy because I get seasick so like that's it, that's a real thing. I respect all those, my Navy friends for that one. But I- I got to go to like the Big Island and train with like 40 other countries once, like that was a master training exercise. I went to Australia for Marine Rotational Force Darwin. The- the unit deployment program. I went to Australia again for Talisman Sabre so Australia was a really only country that I got to visit, which is like kind of still my kind of deepest regret with the military is not being able to, even though it wasn't my fault but not being able to travel as much as I wanted to. Interviewer: Right and you said with the deployments in history you mentioned Darwin was at Darwin like the town in the northern part of Australia that you actually went to? Yes. Interviewer: Okay so what was that like? (55.58) Darwin, Darwin's like… so Darwin is not a like massive city like Sydney and it's kind of a ‘desert-y’ environment like really hot. It's not like a desert but it's just got like the tundra and everything. So, we were based in Darwin but then we'd go on training exercises in Bradshaw Training Area, which is like officially known, the- the outback if you well. So, we go into the middle of the actual desert and we would run ranges and train and I mean it was sleeping underneath the Milky Way in the middle of the outback. Seeing the Southern Cross, which is our unit at the time, our unit constellation on our logo, like that was just it was just, it was so cool. I, waking up like super early in the morning for a hike and like all the dust from the desert is like piling up with a sunbeam showing through it, it was like a photographer's dream, like I had so �much fun taking pictures in the outback. It was exhausting, you got dirty, you didn’t get to shower very often, and you had to suck it up a lot, and you had to carry your own weight, but it was an experience like nothing I've ever had. (57.16) Interviewer: Were you the only person from your unit that was doing that, or would you have a few people that you knew with you? So, in Darwin we had a few people, but we each like again when training exercise happened, we each like went out and did our own thing. And when I actually went to train for our month and a half, I believe that extra- that cycle was, we had four of us with us. Interviewer: Okay. So, we could all like kind of tag-team: you do video, I'll do photo, you write the story kind of things, we all just kind of took turns. Interviewer: Okay and when you went to that deployment do they fly you out or did you have… so you're not riding a navy ship with a troop transport with everybody the whole way? (57.52) Some do, I didn't I flew. Interviewer: Alright, and then what was the other deployment in Australia then, as you had… That was a two-week training exercise, so it wasn't like a deployment it was called Talisman Sabre every year there is a partnership with Australia in some way shape or form and there, every other year they do Talisman Sabre and the off years are RIMPAC (Rim of the Pacific Exercise) I believe. �Interviewer: Okay. I'm trying to make sure all my information is correct. Like I… Interviewer: So now what area were you in then for Talisman Sabre? Darwin. Interviewer: Okay you're back in Darwin again. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay and do they take you back out in the desert again? Or do you… Okay. Yep so that, because there's only two weeks I… there's some training exercises I went out for a day and came right back because I needed to get the photos up. I'm going out for two days, some I went out for a month, so it just depended, or a month or two. It depended on what the demands of that were like and I would you know, when on the longer training exercises I would have like a USB and send it back of photos or whatever if I couldn't connect, and I’d- I’d figured it out every- every place you went you figured it out. Interviewer: Alright and so were there vehicles or helicopters going back and forth between the field and the rear so you could either hitch a ride or give something to somebody? (59.14) Yes, they're usually, so when we go out into the field there's like this, they set up like a- like a base camp if you will, and then you go even further out. So, like there's the base camp that you can go to- to deliver stuff to. Interviewer: Right. But you're still out there you're not, I'm not going all the way back to Darwin that was like a tenhour drive. �Interviewer: Alright now some people that hear about Australia, they think about interesting and dangerous fauna did you have to worry about scorpions and snakes and things like that or was that not an issue? I was worried about that but I, we're in the middle of the desert like and there's tall dry grass so there was brush fires everywhere and there's wildfires all over that area and- and we kept far enough away for safety and everything. But we were, so there was like really tall dry grass because in the- the wet season the whole place is covered, swampy and in the dry it's like a waste land so there’s really tall dry grass that we're walking through for our, one of our patrol movements and we just, we’re supposed to be quiet you know because, you know coming up on a hypothetical enemy and I was just sitting there with my camera walking through this tall grass like kind of low-key panicking that there's gonna be these crazy poisonous creatures everywhere. I like remember nudging the guy next to me, I didn’t know who he was I'm like, “are you worried about like snakes and stuff.” And he just kind of looks at me he's like, “I don't know.” And I looked over to another guy and he heard us and he's just kind of like “shh.” And I’m like okay you know I guess- I guess we're just gonna accept our doom and continue like whatever. Like I'm sure somebody thought about it. Interviewer: Okay but there weren't any formal warnings about the fauna or anything like that? No, I mean we saw kangaroos and stuff, but we never encountered anything super dangerous so. (1:01.05) Interviewer: Alright and at least if the Kangaroos attack your people are armed so. Yeah exactly. �Interviewer: Alright so you have, now you do, when you're in Hawaii you do switch assignments, you go to a different base and how did that come about? So, when I first got to Hawaii, I spent a year in their Marine Corps Base Hawaii but then there were openings at Camp Smith, Marine Corps Forces, Pacific and so we're taking recommendations from because we, I guess we had too many people at Marine Corps Base Hawaii so they just transferred me and one other person over. And that was a higher command that was unlike any of the command I had been in. Marine Corps Forces, Pacific was in charge of every Marine Corps unit in that area. So, I worked two floors below a three-star general, I worked two doors down from a full-bird colonel which is one step below a general, so it was, as a sergeant like who was used to just dealing with people, peers, and a few enlisted ranks above me, I had to learn real quick how to… I always felt like I was professional, but I had to learn real quick that, how to talk to senior leadership within the entire organization of the Marine Corps. And it was a good experience, I think not a lot of Marines get to see a general level and work next to one, and it was really fun to kind of learn from like the older generation of Marines and kind of learn leadership styles from what they had experienced, what they are, what I want to be, and just kind of take, it was a good learning experience. Interviewer: Now were the more senior people, were they used to dealing with women or do they handle that professionally or do you still have the sense that you kind of don't belong here? (1:02.52) With senior leadership they’re way more professional. Interviewer: Okay. �So, that was not- not really an issue with, for the most part. I mean I can't speak for every female Marine obviously there's a bunch of situations, but it was kind of refreshing working around people who were like older and like genuinely cared about your development or where guiding influences if you needed it and so. Interviewer: And where there some higher-ranking women in that assignment as well so you're...? Yes, but with that, when it comes to female leadership it's hit and miss and at the risk of sounding like negative and the same with males too. There's not… a lot of… a bad leadership can ruin your unit, it can ruin your experience, it can ruin your attitude, I mean if you let it. So, there's unfortunately there's like a stereotype for a female Marines for a reason because there are people who have bad, poor moral character or just like people who just are not good at leadership. But when you find that female that is like what you want to be, like that is someone to like cling to and become a mentee of for sure. (1:04.13) Interviewer: Okay, alright and was your job now different from what it had been previously? Are you doing a different set of things or just the same stuff for a different group of people? So, I stopped- I stopped being so much of a journalist and more of a brand marketer if you will and focusing heavily on media relations. I learned how to write press releases and talking points for the generals when/ should they be interviewed. Media escorts; got to work with CNN, Fox, VICE News, Reuters so I mean it was cool. I got to meet a lot of Pearl Harbor veterans because Pearl Harbor is right down the road from Camp Smith. I got to see a lot of and appreciate a lot of �like the history that I am a part of, and I learned a lot about the Marines’ role in the Pacific- the Pacific Theater during World War II, so. Interviewer: Alright does anybody, I mean so the, so some of it is you're gonna… using Marine Corps history to help kind of promote the Marine Corps? Or are there some of the events going on that your part of because you're at Pearl, in that Pearl Harbor area? Now do they also pay attention to things that Marines did later, you know Vietnam or Korea or the more recent conflicts, was that also, did you do things that related to those or was it mostly World War II and now? (1:05.42) Absolutely actually I had a combat camera friend go to Vietnam to document retrieval of bodies of Marines that never came home or service members. Interviewer: Right. So, like it was very, the history of the- the US presence in that area is very real and it's like still a- a like it's still a big part of the history and taken very seriously and respectfully. When I was in Hawaii 35 bodies of Marines were excavated from Tarawa from World War II an island of Tarawa. Marines still hike to Iwo Jima like to this day to put their rank or their emblem on the top to memorialize like the Marines that died there. The history of the Marine Corps is very important to Marines; it's just who we are it's- it's those who came before us and those who are coming after us. We kind of all see each other in like a bonding way of you were a Marine, and this is what you did, and mad respect to you because you know that's- that's kind of what we're all here for and so we’re, take care of our World War II veterans and Vietnam veterans if we get the chance for sure. �Interviewer: Okay now you basically do two hitches, you do eight years in the Marines. At what point did you decide you were leaving? (1:07.16) The decision to get out was very bittersweet because I never stopped loving the Marine Corps. A lot of, a lot of people get out because they're disheartened or disgruntled but like that was, I felt like I was ready to get out. I did not get the deployment opportunities that I really wanted, and I wasn't going to. Interviewer: Okay. And there's a… and I- I saw the next base I was going to would have advanced my career, but it wouldn't have advanced my- my like just like my goals. Interviewer: Yeah, your personal agenda, where you wanted to go. So, where did theywhere did they want to send you next? They wanted to send me to a recruiting station to be a public affairs representative for an entire region of recruiting which would have been awesome for my career. As a Marine though I- I wanted to lead junior Marines, I wanted to deploy, and I wanted to do what I signed up to do and that wasn't it. So, I just, I applied for some things to do. I didn't really get them and the decision to get out was a very like personal like okay, I'm ready to go to college, like I'm ready to start a new path, and I think it's important and any advice I give Marines that are getting out is make sure you're ready. Because even now I don't regret the decision to get out, I miss it, but I don't regret the decision to get out, but I encounter a lot of veterans who were like, “I want back in.” And like you gotta be ready to get out, if you're not ready you're gonna like, what if I would have stayed in mentality would tear you up so. (1:08.50) �Interviewer: Alright so when did you get out? I got out the day after our Marine Corps ball in 2016 so it was kind of like the best like goingaway party I can take for myself, yeah so. Interviewer: Okay and now you're back and you're a student at Grand Valley State University, what are you majoring in? I'm majoring in PR and advertising with an emphasis in PR with a minor in photography and I am learning so much. Like it was fun doing photography in the Marine Corps, I learned a lot there but the technical skills were not taught to me the way they should have, and I'm just enjoying learning how to do studio photography, and abstract photography, and storytelling photography on a level that I've never done before. Interviewer: Okay now do you find that your background helps you or you know things that some of the other traditional students don't know? 100% the military has 100% prepared me to set me up for success in the civilian world, at least in the college environment and I have no doubt in the professional world as well. They've just, they taught me, I didn't have discipline getting into the military, I have discipline now and I didn't have as much confidence going in as I do now. Now confidence isn't like, I'm not cocky I'm still humble, I've come from humble beginnings and like that's where I'm, I know where I come from, but there is a level of like I got this and challenge accepted type mentality that I didn't really have before, other than to take on the challenge of being a Marine so. (1:10.26) Interviewer: Okay well you've effectively answered the usual final question of an interview like this; how do you think your- your time in the service affected you? Because I think you just told me. Now are there, is there anything else that you recall that you- you want to put �on the record here before we close this interview out? Or anything else, you think that kind of stands with you in your mind that, if you think back to being in the Marines? I definitely grew a lot as a person. There were some dark times and there were some really motivating times. I- I was not like the perfect poster child of being a Marine but I did my best and I think that the- the concept of a poster child is not an accurate one because we all come from different walks of life. I'm grateful and I have nothing but good things to say about it even though the challenges, even with sexism stuff that's not the Marine Corps fault, that's a human error, and a lot of women unfortunately get like really disgruntled towards that attitude and disheartened, and you just get exhausted after fighting a stereotype for so long and you still can't win because it's a cultural mentality. It's not- it’s not like an individual person you can have a discussion with. Interviewer: Yeah, did that evolve at all over time, I mean or was you just by changing stations you have a different environment? No, it never evolved, never changed and the worst I got, the more rank I picked up and I mean I ran into some really good leadership and really bad leadership. And the really good leadership encouraged me and mentored me in a way I clung to that, and I guess that would be like advice to anyone I would give is to cling to the ones you want to be like. (1:12.07) Interviewer: Yeah. And learn, learn continue to learn from the ones that you don't want to be like. But, yeah it, a lot of females had it worse off than I did because I'm a very flexible personality I- I try to understand where people are coming from even though they say messed up things, I try to have discussions with people and I wasn't like, I- I'm very slow to anger. So, like a lot of women �really struggled with getting like, taking it so personally and so angry and instead of like letting it roll off. Gotta get some thick skin and sometimes I think thicker skin than some of the guys. I mean they have their own battles too they have to fight; the whole Marine mentality like you have to be the Captain America, you know and if you're not then you're not really a good Marine and like that's just a stereotype they have to face so we each have our own struggles. But I think the most important thing is to respect each other's struggles and that's what a lot of, I found male Marines lacked was the respect for the struggle of fighting that stereotype, instead of just assuming, if that makes sense. Interviewer: Sure, it does. Assuming that we're part of it. Interviewer: Yeah and it's really sophisticated view of the whole thing really and I’d just like to close out here by thank you- thank you for taking the time to share the story today, really told us quite a bit. I appreciate you having me thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_AndersonS2303V Title A name given to the resource Anderson, Sarah (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04-19 Description An account of the resource Sarah Anderson was born in 1990 in Muskegon, Michigan, and lived in the same house for her entire childhood. Anderson graduated high school in 2009 and immediately joined the Marine Corps since she disliked the mundane environment of the classroom, was energetic, and saw the positive impact the Corps had upon her brother. During the 9/11 attacks, Anderson was in the fifth grade and remembers being sent home early after hearing of the attacks over the radio, later influencing her decision to join the service. She attended Marine Boot Camp in August of 2009 at Parris Island, South Carolina, where male recruits were separated from female recruits, even though training standards were equal between the sexes. In addition to basic training, recruits were instructed on hand-to-hand combat in the Marine Martial Arts Program and Anderson recalled how all training was meant to break down recruits to build them up again as skilled, devoted, proud soldiers. After Boot Camp, Anderson transferred into Marine Combat Training in Fort Johnson, North Carolina, where she chose her career within the Corps, and then to Fort Meade, Maryland, for her Marine Occupational Specialty schooling in public affairs. She then chose her occupation within the Corps as a Combat Correspondent, or Strategic Communications and Mass Communicator, and described her occupational schooling as greatly constructive due to her greater exposure to the experiences of other branches of the U.S. Armed Forces. Anderson's first base assignment was in Twentynine Palms, California, where she interviewed Marines before they were deployed to Afghanistan, growing attached to her work and to the stories of these men. When her first four years of service ended, Anderson was encouraged to reenlist by her fellow Marines as well as an underlying dread that she had not seen enough of the Corps or the world. Once reenlisted, she opted to be stationed in bases on Oahu Island, Hawaii, where she continued her media work online and through interviews. She became exposed to working with military personnel of all ranks, urging her to quickly develop proper etiquette for addressing high ranking soldiers and commanders. She also acquired opportunities to work with military personnel from other nations from across the globe, allowing her to see into the military cultures of other countries. Anderson concluded that her work on Oahu taught her the values of working individually, thus independently, and problem solving between the needs of various specializations within the military. Later, she transferred to Darwin, Australia, for Marine Rotational Force Darwin, a unit deployment program, and Talus Mu Saber, a two-week training exercise held every other year between the American and Australian militaries. Anderson became more of a 'brand marketer' than a Combat Correspondent, focusing on both media and public relations through working with major media outlets, social media, and other forms of press coverage. With this new focus, she became more integrated with the history of the Corps in the Second World War, Vietnam, as well as current conflicts. After eight years in the service, Anderson made the difficult decision to leave the Corps in 2016 since she never acquired the deployment opportunities she strived for. From there, she attended Grand Valley State University for a degree in PR, advertising, and photography. She commended her recent academic ventures for teaching her the technical skills that the Corps could not provide her while also commending the Corps for teaching her discipline and responsibility. Reflecting upon her service, Anderson believed she grew tremendously as a person through the Corps by doing her best, especially in the face of subtle, underlying sexism or gender stereotypes. Ultimately, these subtle tensions in gender relations remained constant during her service. She also adhered to the moral and ethical teachings of various mentors and instructors who helped her build a stronger character and skills in leadership. Pre-Enlistment: (00:00:52:00) Enlistment/Training: (00:06:30:00) Service: (00:29:48:00) Post-Service Life: (01:07:17:00) Reflections: (01:09:43:00) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anderson, Sarah Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d02f8bd781487c49eceea0580b21554e.m4v 6ad6775efa5e09599e5045c5d479e2cd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a4117401e58a2affc770a06d13ba2aa4.pdf 421aa224e5cf8f5f3bdefef432dde8a7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Eldon Hunsberger (00:39:20) (00:20) Background Information • • • • • Eldon was born on a farm in Plainfield, MI He went to college from 1940 to 1941 Eldon had attempted to join the Army Air Corps, but was not accepted because of an overbite He later tried to get in again and they accepted him Eldon was sent to Santa Ana, CA (03:47) Training • • • • • Eldon went to primary in Ontario, CA and then learned to fly Steermans, which are single engine biplanes He went to Miners Field in Bakersfield, CA for basic training and began training with BT-13s They sent him to Colorado to fly the AT-10 and the AT-17, twin engine planes Out of a class of 120 he was one of 6 that moved on to fly the B-26 In February of 1943 he graduated and was assigned to Florida where he trained more with B-26s • (07:35) Northern Route • • • • • Eldon was sent to Savannah, GA where he began as a co-pilot on a B-26 They flew the Northern Route which went to Savannah, NJ, Maine, Newfoundland, Greenland, Iceland and England In England they got fitted with a bigger gas tank and then went to Marrakesh, Morocco In Iceland they were told not to go into town because they were pro-German He went to Casablanca to get fitted for battle (11:08) Tunis • • • • • Eldon saw a lot of wrecked planes when he got to Tunis His first base was outside of Tunis Their first mission was over Salerno, Italy On his second mission he had to land on the beach head At first they hit ground troops and then they went on to target German supplies �• There were up to 32 planes in a formation and they flew at 12,000 feet • After 13 missions he got to be a pilot then they switched back and forth from pilot to copilot • It took him one year to get 65 missions in • They “flew when the weather was good” • He helped out at Anzio in Italy • Eldon was in South Africa for 2 months and then was sent to an old German airfield in Sardinia (20:05) Sardinia • • • • Sardinia was a desolate place The B-26 had the best loss rate of anyone at 1/10th of 1 percent They had cameras under the planes that took pictures of what they had just bombed Eldon was supposed to go home after 40 missions but they couldn’t get replacements so he wasn’t told to go home until he had 65 missions in the summer of 1944 (25:00) Back to the US • • • • • • • He went to Naples, Italy and then flew a B-25 home on the Southern Route When he got back he had some time on leave in Miami, FL He was offered a position as a flight instructor but he refused Eldon got in trouble for not dressing right and got sent to flyC-47s towing gliders in Texas He went back to Dodge and took an aircraft maintenance course He became a Maintenance officer Eldon got to fly an A-26, which was the same concept as the B-26 but made by a different company and it was faster (30:19) Reserves • • • • He stayed in the Army as a Reserve He flew the T-6 out of Grand Rapids, MI Then the C-46, the AT-11, and the AT-6 out of Detroit, MI Eldon also worked as a carpenter (31:30) Recalled for Korea • • • • Eldon was recalled in April of 1952 He was first sent to Roswell, NM Then took a Squadron Officer course in Alabama He Flew 800 hours in a KB-29 �• • Eldon stayed near the US and refueled planes that were going to Hawaii After he was done he went back into the reserves, spending a total of 23 years in the military (34:50) Feelings about His Experiences • He enjoyed being in the Military • Eldon was glad he wasn’t on the ground (35:35) Jobs • • After the service he ran an airport, but didn’t like all of the restrictions He was also a Builders Hardware Salesman � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EHunsberger Title A name given to the resource Hunsberger, Eldon (Interview outline and video), 2008 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-19 Description An account of the resource Eldon Hunsberger was born on a farm in Plainfield, Michigan. He went to college for 2 years and then joined the Army Air Corps and trained as a pilot. He flew B-26 bombers on 65 missions over Italy from bases in Tunisia, Sardinia and Italy. When he got back to the US he was in the Army Reserve and then got called back in April of 1952 for the Korean War. Eldon flew a KB-29 and refueled planes on their way to Hawaii. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hunsberger, Eldon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army. Air Corps World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/88bacc23364466ef69f212b19755332f.pdf aeee20cf193040f5b5c8fb6a373a98be PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Frank Collins Korean War 7 minutes 27 seconds (00:00:17) Early Life Pt. 1 -Born in Manistee, Michigan -Had to walk to school because no school buses were available -More relaxed time during his youth -Grew up in Manistee -Had three sisters and two brothers -Both brothers served in the Army -Born on July 4, 1933 (00:01:26) Enlisting in the Air Force -Mother died and father moved to California -Departure of parents prompted him to enlist in the Air Force -Note: Dependent on date of enlistment it would have been Army Air Force or Air Force (00:02:00) Training Pt. 1 -Basic training was difficult for him -Wasn't used to taking orders -Had to adjust to that (00:02:28) Early Life Pt. 2 -Worked before enlisting in the Army -Got a job at the company his father worked at (00:03:20) Korean War Pt. 1 -In personnel staff -Kept records during the Korean War -While in Korea he processed North Korean prisoners of war -Recorded and radioed in North Korean train and aircraft movements (00:04:10) Baseball -When he was a boy he wanted to become a professional baseball player -Had a chance to play professional baseball with the Washington Senators -Had no future in baseball beyond that though and the money wasn't good -Played baseball while in the Air Force (00:04:59) Living Conditions in Korea -Rough in Korea -Incredibly cold and lived in pup tents (00:05:21) Training Pt. 2 -Went to Personnel School to learn how to be a record keeper -Learned how to march and take orders in basic training (00:05:45) Korean War Pt. 2 -Didn't see any combat while he was in Korea (00:06:11) Military Career -Stayed in the Air Force for 11 years -From 1952 to 1963 -Also served in the Air National Guard � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_CollinsF1840V Title A name given to the resource Collins, Frank M (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-26 Description An account of the resource Frank Collins was born in Manistee, Michigan on July 4, 1933. After his mother died and his father moved to California he enlisted in the Air Force in 1952. He received basic training and went to Personnel School. During the Korean War he was deployed to Korea and worked in records. He processed North Korean prisoners of war and also spent a month monitoring the train and aircraft movements of the North Koreans. He stayed in the Air Force until 1963 then went on to serve in the Air National Guard. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Collins, Frank M. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Richter, Madelyn (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1276c4630d81314ccbb164345bbb17c6.pdf 8b39937dd57282e284d39df99ab41147 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project David Katona War in Afghanistan 8 minutes 24 seconds (00:00:04) Early Life -Born in 1989 -Has two older sisters -Mother worked as a nurse -Father worked as a veterinarian -In high school prior to enlisting (00:00:42) Enlisting in the Marines & Training -Father had served in the military -He was in fifth grade when the September 11th Attacks happened -Wanted to do something to help fight back -17 years old when he talked to a Marine recruiter -Trained for a year in Michigan before starting training on the delayed-entry program -Chose the Marines because he wanted to be the “best of the best” -In retrospect, basic training was fun -At the time it was shocking and totally unexpected -Had to learn how to do everything the proper, Marines way -Right down to tying his shoes -Had a pretty easy time adjusting to the Marines (00:02:34) Serving in Afghanistan -Did a tour in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2009 -Stationed in Helmand Province, Afghanistan at a base 30 miles from the Pakistani border -Relieved another American unit at the base -Within the first two weeks of being there they made contact with enemy troops -By the end of the fight the enemy had been pushed out of the area -Afghan civilians were normal people -Just uninformed and primitive people -Formed long term friendships with Marines on his deployment -Especially the Marines in his squad (00:04:22) Contact with Home -For the first two months in Afghanistan the only way he could call home was with a satellite phone -Eventually had a communications tent set up at his base -Had computers, phones, and an internet connection -Allowed a half hour of internet time every day (00:04:47) End of Service -He was out of the Marines by the time U.S. involvement in Afghanistan ended -Had gotten discharged due to the military being downsized (00:05:09) Life after Service -Had an alright time readjusting to civilian life -Most days have been alright -Family greeted him in North Carolina when he came home -Threw him a party at a local hotel and bought him a nice dinner -Not a member of any veterans' organizations, but he still gets together with friends from the Marines �(00:06:29) Reflections on Service -Matured quickly in the Marines -Only 18 years old when he first saw combat -The kind of perspective he wouldn't have gotten elsewhere -Biggest lesson he learned in Afghanistan was to keep his head down (00:07:15) Miscellaneous Details -Had a deployment in Afghanistan and a Sea Service deployment -Note: Means that he served aboard a ship -Attained the rank of E4 (corporal) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KatonaD1846V Title A name given to the resource Katona, David Ferenc (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-02-15 Description An account of the resource David Katona was born in 1989. When he was 17 years old he enlisted in the Marines and when he turned 18 he reported for basic training. He did a tour in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2009 and was stationed in the Helmand Province of Afghanistan at a base 30 miles from the Pakistani border. During his time in Afghanistan he carried out patrols and engaged enemy forces in the area. After the tour in Afghanistan he returned to the United States at North Carolina and was discharged sometime after that and before U.S. involvement in Afghanistan ended in 2014. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Katona, David Ferenc Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maier, Courtney (Interviewer) Bredeweg, Mackenzi (Interviewer) Cheeks, Jada (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1954856bd4028a6df1c980f1e57c97de.pdf fa3868b783ddc30c9d07ff330a63dddf PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Darin Jousma Yugoslav Wars & War on Terror 9 minutes 1 second (00:00:13) Early Life -Lived with his parents before enlisting in the Army -Had a part-time job when he was in high school (00:00:32) Enlisting in the Army & Training -Enlisted in the Army in the summer of 1997 after graduating from high school -Joined the infantry because he liked the idea of being an infantryman -Training was extremely rough -Never experienced treatment like that before (00:01:22) Stationed in Bosnia -Deployed to Bosnia as part of a peacekeeping force in 1998 -Inspected weapons bunkers and made sure the Serbs were not moving weapons -No combat -Remembers going to confiscate weapons from a group of Serbian troops -The Serbs pulled their weapons and pointed them at the American troops -American troops radioed in two Apache helicopters to circle the area -Show of force against the Serbs to show they were no longer in charge -Serbs dropped their weapons and walked away (00:03:13) Downtime in the Army -Read a lot of books -Played a lot of video games -Played cards with friends (00:03:26) Friends in the Army -Made lifelong friends in the Army -Drives across the country just to see them (00:03:45) Contact with Home -When he was at the barracks in Germany he had access to telephones -Spent a lot of money on phone cards and calling-collect -Now, he has Skype and voice chat virtually anywhere in the world (00:04:27) Stationed in Kuwait -Got to Kuwait just before Thanksgiving 2004 -Celebrated Thanksgiving and Christmas 2004 in Kuwait -Wasn't too difficult -Didn't like being away from home for his birthday though -Had his birthday in Kuwait shortly before being sent home (00:05:21) Skills in the Army -Learned a lot about IT in the Army -Proved useful in the civilian world (00:06:02) Current Service Pt. 1 -As of the interview, Darin is in the Michigan National Guard (00:06:11) Coming Home -Returning from a deployment is one of the best moments of your life -Strange to return to a world with hot showers and flushing toilets �-One thing he missed about deployments was being around and working with close friends (00:07:13) Stationed at Fort Riley -Spent a couple years at Fort Riley, Kansas -Assigned to the 2nd of the 78th Armor -Most likely 2nd Battalion -Served as the unit commander's driver -Fantastic job -First job he had in the Army where he had a lot of control over his daily schedule -Mingled with high-ranking officers and saw the command process (00:08:16) Current Service Pt. 2 -Currently a 2nd lieutenant in the Michigan National Guard -Will be promoted to 1st lieutenant one month from the interview's date � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_JousmaD1843V Title A name given to the resource Jousma, Darin Richard (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-02-11 Description An account of the resource Darin Jousma enlisted in the Army in the summer of 1997 after graduating from high school. He served in Bosnia in 1998 as part of a peacekeeping force helping with the confiscation of weapons and stopping Serbian forces from moving weaponry and ordnance around the country. He was stationed in Kuwait in 2004. He spent a few years at Fort Riley, Kansas with the 2nd Battalion, 78th Armored Regimant and worked as a commander's driver. As of the time of the interview he is in the Michigan National Guard with the rank of 2nd lieutenant and expects to be promoted to 1st lieutenant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jousma, Darin Richard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jousma, Josh (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d409b1ab3fba5e84c0ef25ae06475fb.pdf c210406dbc774b37251481499e778030 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Wayne Kooy Cold War Era 8 minutes 16 seconds (00:00:05) -Born April 26th, 1932. -Served in the US Army attaining the highest rank of E2. -Born in Lansing, Illinois in their home. -Family of 5 siblings, one girl and four boys. -Worked for nine months an electrical engineer before the military. -Drafted in March of 1955. -Took basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. -Nicknamed Fort Lost in the Woods, Misery. -Due to being deferred to complete college, he was slightly older entering the service. -Older by about four years. -Worked with the S & P. -Took a basic electrical engineering class in Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. -“Very basic” a “simple review” due to his experience. -At Fort Monmouth he attended class for the summer. -Next he was sent to White Sands in New Mexico. -Worked in the meteorological division to make devices to measure weather. (3:30) -Example of one device: created to measure the phase-shift. -Resided at White Sands for 18 months. -The military did not suit him. -Disliked the lack of choice and independence. -Had one pay dispute with his authorities. -Did not have any trouble returning to civilian life. -Returned to the job he had prior. -A few friends from the military are still in touch. -Would not say that he enjoyed the military, but didn’t find it distasteful. -The experience was somewhat useful in life. -Discipline was a worthwhile characteristic. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KooyW1831V Title A name given to the resource Kooy, Wayne John (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-26 Description An account of the resource Wayne Kooy was born in Lansing, Illinois on April 26th, 1932. He was drafted in March of 1955 and had basic training in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. In the Army he used his electrical engineering skills to craft and maintain meteorological devices in White Sands, New Mexico. With his time in the military he achieved the rank of E2 at his highest ranking. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kooy, Wayne John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kooy, Brendon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf