41
24
1541
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3cd55d3b952148210e50bbe93e70195e.mp4
3f2b6e4b3cf551b71f3f8f0c4cac8df8
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09a0eeb80087610eee098b278c8becd8.pdf
48a6eed4c6a8d54234ba0a644de38699
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Art Lucas
(01:01:00)
(00:17) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
He was born in Michigan in 1922
Art was eight years old when the Depression hit
Everyone in the community went to the same church
He had never even heard of Catholicism until he went to high school
His home town was focused around farming
Art farmed his whole life except while in service
He just sold his farm a few years ago
He had previously been a supervisor in the township; he held the position for 25 years
(2:35) The Depression
• The Depression effected his life in all aspects and still does today
• No one had very much money at the time and the banks were only giving back ten
percent of what people had actually saved
• He graduated from high school and worked in a factory for a while
• In 1941 Art attended Michigan State University for one term
• The government ordered him to get a physical, yet he was deferred from joining the
service for a while because he had acquired farming skills
(5:50) The Draft
• The government told him that they would like to have him stay in the US because of his
farming skills
• They told him “you will do a lot more good out here on the farm than you will ever do in
the Navy.”
(6:45) The Navy
• Art was eventually sworn into the service and said that “boot camp was a serious
business.”
• They trained a lot to become more disciplined
• In the service you must always do what you are told to without thinking about it
(7:35) Great Lakes Naval Base, Chicago
• Much of their training did not even involve boats or ships
• He trained in Chicago for eight weeks
• He and twenty other men were shipped to New York for school
• They went to Virginia for two months to form a crew
• In Virginia, they lived in small tents outside during the winter
�•
They then went on a ship to Baltimore and then took a train to Pittsburgh
(10:15) 328 Foot Long LSTs
• The ships were made in a plant on the Ohio River
• The Landing Ship Tanks were 50 feet wide
• Art was stationed near this plant for ten days while their ship was finished
• He and his crew then left down the Mississippi River
(11:40) Art is Assigned to be a Signal Man
• Signalmen talk to other ships through signals; they use flashing lights, Morse code, and
flags
• His job was held on the tower of the boat on the way to New Orleans
• They were able to open ship doors while out at sea, which would let in about four feet of
water
• They stopped at Mobile, Alabama to load the ship at a tank deck
• They loaded the ship with five hundred pound bombs that were three feet high each
• They then filled open compartments with aviation gas
• They ship was really just like a giant bomb
• In Okinawa a ship got hit by a kamikaze and the whole ship exploded
(16:20) Art Visited the Panama Canal Briefly
(16:50) Hawaii
• They spent only one week in Hawaii in 1945
• They were then sent to Okinawa
(17:40) Okinawa: September 1945
• This is a big long island near the China Sea with many kamikazes in the area
• Art said that the guys in Iraq are also trying these kamikaze techniques; “it’s old stuff,
they are not using anything new.”
• They used a smoke machine that made smoke twenty feet deep on the USS Pennsylvania
to confuse the kamikazes
• They eventually had to leave the harbor two ships at a time because of a typhoon
• This happened twice while they were out at sea during a typhoon
(21:25) The Typhoon
• The ship would actually bend in such a strong storm
• Typhoons are like American hurricanes
• They would be out for three days before they were in the eye of the storm
• It is not possible to cook on a ship during a typhoon so everyone just gets really tired and
sleeps the whole time
• Typhoons produce fifty foot waves
• They had been in Okinawa unloading bomb when the storm hit
(25:10) Going on Shore in Okinawa
�•
•
•
•
•
•
His brother was at Okinawa also and had arrived there one day before Art
There were also Italians in Okinawa; it was a tough fight for the marines
They also went to Manila to load up food and bear there
You can’t drink water in that area or anything that is even cooked with water
They then headed towards Japan to unload box cars
There are no sandy beaches in Japan; it’s just rocks with caves every so often
(28:40) Nagasaki
• The bomb was dropped here in August, while Art had arrived in October
• Art went on shore and took pictures, but it made some people angry
• They were allowed to go back to the US on January 5th
• They went straight home, traveling 6,000 miles to San Diego
• It took them 27 days and they did not even see another ship light or anything that
resembled land
• The ship had a bunch of holes in it the whole way back, but they were unable to fix them
at the time
(31:20) Washington
• They were sent to a big ship yard to get their ship fixed
• They then went to Oregon where many men were being decommissioned
(33:15) Art was Discharged May 1946
• He went back home to Michigan
• He was part of the 52-20 club, which gives you $20/week for 52 weeks
• Art decided to not take the checks after one weeks pay because he had two good hands
and could work just fine
• Art said that the Navy was a great experience if you came back uninjured
(34:40) Post-War Military
• Some men stayed in the service and received a bonus
• Art was too independent to stay in the service and moved back to Lucas, Michigan
(35:35) Chicago
• Art knew a girl in Chicago and while on his way home in a train, he stopped by her house
• Art worked in Chicago for about six months and then they got married
• They moved to Wisconsin because he had heard that there were lots of farms there
• Later they moved to Michigan because the cost of milk was much higher there
(37:40) The Michigan Farm
• They first purchased 80 acres and soon after purchased another 120 acres
(38:50) Showing of Pictures Taken in Nagasaki
• They were very close to the destruction
�•
•
•
•
All the newspapers had said that nothing will grow there again for at least another one
thousand years, yet Art found potatoes growing there just two months after the bomb had
been dropped
There was a barbed wire fence that had been completely melted together
There were huge trees up the sides of mountains that had been blown over
Art had seen pictures of the same area 25 years later and the city had completely been
rebuilt
(44:10) The Japanese
• Art stated that the Japanese “were really interested in us.”
• Hirohito was like a god to them; he was able to get young men to gives their lives up for
him so that they would be guaranteed into heaven; “it's really not that different from
Islam.”
• Those men had been brain-washed to die for their religion and Hirohito
(49:00) The Quartermaster
• Both quartermasters had been taken off his ship and Art then became the quartermaster
• The new job came with a lot of responsibility
• He used a sexton to take sights of the stars
(51:45) Showing of Pictures of Planes, Factories in Japan, Wrecked Cities in Japan, and the
USS Pennsylvania
(53:35) Reunions
• There have been reunions with the men from the service every year for the past forty
years
• It’s getting harder for Art to attend these every year
• The next reunion is in San Antonio and the last was in St. Louis
(58:00) Showing of Pictures of Japan and the Philippines
�•
"TWO YEArsrsFOHE THE MAST. It
~ ~
Greetings from the Fresident were received via the draft board on
May 9, 1944. lvlay- lOth, I took my official leave from ~.assaukee
County for Detroit where I was sworn into the U.S. Navy, a maneuver
that took fifteen·se-conds on the ships clock. Proceeded from Detroit
to Great Lakes Naval Training Station via the "Milk" -train. After
five weeks of -Boot Trainingll arrived home on a nine day- -Boot lf leave.
Leave was over all too soon and back to Great Lakes. 'From there to
sampeea, New York for four months Signalman training. : tJovember 6, 1944,
we graduated and were granted a five day leave. Home-,again! Re-ported
in to Camp Bradford, Norfolk, Virginia. Aft·er four mQnthsof traiaing
for L.S. T. erew;s, we aga.in graduated. Anotller leaveo! eleven days.
People at home were beginning to wonder whether I was in the Navy or
just p;omeon leaVte a.ll the time.
'; MY
L
Back to Camp Bradford. ·On March 13th we bid farewell to-Norfolk and
proceede.d by ferry to Baltimore, Maryland where we boarded ene of the
Pennsyl vania Railroad t s 1890 model trains for the trip t.o Pit'tsbttt'gb.~
Arrived in the Smokey C1 ty nene too olean. Enjoyed Ptttsbul7:gh hosp-1tal1ty
for two weeks.
.
Boarded a new L. S. T. Ma.reh 27, 1945 and sailed for N~wOrleans by
way of th,e Ohio and Miss:is.sippi Rivers. After a week"~otfitt1n-g out
in New Oi"leans r . left- for st. Andrews Bay, Florida" _T'f{O - we,eks train1ng
cruis-e and back to New O;r1eaRs. Went over to see Adr:iiam Lucas at
Keesler Field, Milssissippi at this ~ir.ne. Another wee~ at New OrLeane
and then to Mobilje. Alabama '-f~r a ~~. to take oV'erse~s. . Spe!)t another
half day with Adrian. Ma.y 12, 1945, --said goodbye to Q. S-.shoree.,~fnd
proceeded to Pan$la Canal. Arrived.in one w~ekffu11y 1ndoc.trinate-d
into life aboard .sh Ip, -~ent through one of man fa g~tefltenginee-r1b.g
feats and we were on the blue Pacific. Aftarthrae we'6ks wearri ved
in Hawaii. Spent a week enjoying their sunshine -and-.lied ·fo-I" Eneowe'tek-e«
Arrived: in about it-en days and after one night proe:eededto Ul1th1 atoll.
In ten daN'S we ar.ri ved in..o.ne of the .fin~stsalt watet;' swimming p,~ls
in the pacific. Three weeks in. Uli thi and we sail$<!--.tor5aipan. Over
night and lotte morning,oi\fr-- again, this time fllr -Okinawa..
We arrived at Okinawa JUly 28, 1945. Ab-eut t'pree d$Ys later, ~et,.}Sy
brother Jactlb for about the first time in a.bout:thr..eey~ars_. We also
saw Bob Bosscher 'here too. In fact 1 I saw SO ~anyofmy relatives in
Okinawa,W"8 deci~ed to hold the. reunionthere'f.-hat y'ea.r. owt. the f$'l1~s
at llomes'ijt«Mttt to ;come, 5(1) ,we df <in" t. Af'ter'thl,rty days· th~:re_ dm-ins
which ti~ Japan :had. sur:r-ende:red, we went to Leyt.e~ Ras.a thr&ugh a
typhoon on- the VlaJ,y down but:ar~ived~afe 1y ~ LeY'tEh • We. WlJ.·oaded t:here
and went to Snbio B.ay where we load-e:d tr09p5 bo.uP-d f~,,# Japan. After a.
few da-ys we prO'eeeded toLingayenGulf-~ After a sho,r'ts'taYt we went
to Sasebo, Japan. The Ja.:p_ane$-egreeted us with clo:$ed. aTmS and cold
stares. We so-en 'won t~eir _confi@nee,\:however, wi th _,,~~urep1!)eolate bars
and cigarettes. \'i'hile in the Japanef?ea.rea, we made two trips down to
Nagasaki where they dropped one atomic bomb. A very awe.... lnspiring
scene greeted us when we viewed it for the first time. I have some
pictures of it at home.
�Page 2--My -Two Years Before The Mast.
January 3, 1946 we sailed for the U. S. A. once again and atter
27 days landed at San Diego. While there I had oeoas~on to see
Beatrice BossCh:e1;' and her husband and Bob Bosseher·. ~e+tn,. This
Luca.srelatlon crops up all over, doesntt it? We SOCQ. lut fo:r;
Bremerton, Wash1M~on .a.nd fram. there we went to Astor£a.., Oregon.
After a couple ~.~ w8.eks wentllp the r1v~r to Pt>rt1.and,; Oregon where
I was finally S8I)·t home en leave .again. Aftar thiny4four days o~
Lucas bospitalj;tY;., I report:e4 '1n"to Great Lakes f~r'41scharge "hieh
I r~i ved !(a.y a~ . . 1946.
.
".:
..
Now I am about·t.6 be marri~ t.o Miss' NellieKorte.ev~n of ChicaSO•..
Il11nois. An:otb~~. Nellle' :i;n the family.
.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LucasA
Title
A name given to the resource
Lucas, Arthur (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lucas, Arthur
Description
An account of the resource
Art Lucas was born in a small farm town in Michigan in 1922. There he acquired farming skills that would help him to avoid being drafted into the war at the very beginning. Lucas became eligible for the draft and decided to enlist in the Navy serving on an LST as a signalman and then as a quartermaster between 1944 and 1946. He has photographs taken in Japan after Nagasaki had been bombed. After serving, he continued farming and in Michigan was voted supervisor of his township for 25 consecutive years. Personal narrative, "My Two Years Before the Mast" is appended to the interview outline.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Navy
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-09-20
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b7a1c375c4e5781b68d5a9a71e8af06.mp4
322790550dc941a976da5deb5db426ad
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4cbd76ef6e2e3eba67251b88e927fca.pdf
e36d63fded2b4a652ecd21f7a493efc4
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Cold War & Desert Storm
Name of Interviewee: Avery Loucks
Length of Interview: 00:16:48
Background:
He lives in Kentwood, Michigan.
He joined the Navy Reserves in 1962.
He went into active duty in 1963 and served for 3 years in Jacksonville, Florida.
He flew in a squadron that flew all over the Caribbean.
After he served his time, he went to and finished college at Michigan State University.
He got his degree and signed up for commission in the Navy Reserves again, and he was
recalled again when he was 51, to serve in Desert Storm for a year.
In 1994, he retired from the Reserves and he has been in retired status ever since.
He joined the Navy because he had heard that they had the best tech school. (1:10)
His teacher in high school knew that he was having some financial difficulties and told
him to join the Navy and to get his college paid for.
He was thrilled at the idea at the time, because he did not know what he was getting into.
Thanks to his time in the Navy, he has had a lifelong fascination in aviation.
His father has a pilot’s license, and he got his private pilot’s license; his son would
continue on to fly commercial airplanes and he hopes his grandson will eventually go into
aviation as well.
He was going to be drafted, but he decided to enlist instead. (2:15)
He had some trouble getting into classes at MSU, so he had to decide between paying for
classes he did not need or going into the service and being done with it. He eventually
chose the latter.
He chose the Navy because they had the best technical training at the time. He had
nothing against the other divisions.
If he had been drafted, he would not have had a choice in which branch he served in or
what schools he would have attended. When he enlisted voluntarily, he was given more
freedom to choose. (3:30)
First Duties (3:35)
His first duties were keeping the deck clean. He remembers a bucket in one hand and a
mop in the other.
In the first days of duty everyone helped, even officers.
It was a different kind of life, kind of boring, but he knew he was going to get something
out of it, which made it worth it.
His first three years was at a Naval Base in Jacksonville, Florida.
It held three squadrons.
�
If you were not serving on a ship, you served on a base. If you were not on a base, you
were on a ship.
While he served there, he flew all over the Caribbean. All the way south as the Virgin
Islands, east as Bermuda, and west as Tampa. (5:15)
He worked with a squadron that took aerial photography, of mostly shipping. They took
pictures of ships and aircraft flying around in the area.
It was just after the Cuban Missile Crisis that he took some pictures of the blockade.
They did not have video at the time.
They took photos of every ship and plane in the area at the time
They brought the photos back to be processed by specialists. What they did was
reconnaissance. (6:30)
He did not see any combat at the time. He was in the Navy at a time before anyone dared
challenging us.
He had asked an officer once, what was he supposed to do if they started shooting at us?
The officer replied that they would not shoot at us because they were too scared that we
would blow them out of the water.
He was proud to serve in a military where when the Navy showed up, the bad guys would
leave.
Vacations (7:30)
You had 30 days of leave over the year. He ended up taking a flight to Bermuda on a
passenger plane.
He took his bike with him too.
He went for a day and a half, and toured almost the whole island. Other than the meals, it
did not cost him a cent. (8:15)
He ate a lot of boxed lunches. When you fly you were provided a box lunch.
Sometimes it had chicken in them or roast beef sandwiches, chips and soda. Early in the
day you also had cigarettes.
The best chow he had was on holidays. The chefs usually prepared stuff like you had at
home, steaks and such, but it was probably never as good as your mothers.
Day-in, day-out the food was alright.
He stayed in touch with people at home via letters and the telephone.
Calling home was cheap, though not as cheap as it is now, but it was never so bad that
you could not call home. (9:30)
Most of the time, he called home. His parents and siblings were always happy to hear
from him.
He would send letters to family he felt he should not call collect.
His first Thanksgiving, he teamed up with a married couple and a couple of single guys,
and they were all going to celebrate Thanksgiving together.
They were doing really well until they got to the part where they had to make gravy, and
no one knew how to make gravy.
So he knew what to do: he called home to his mother and she told them how to make
gravy. They all ended up talking to each other, and had a good time.
There is a lot of comradely that develops in the military. Partially because they lived in
such close quarters, partially because there was a sense of danger being in the military.
�
Although his was never shot at, because they were all too scared to shoot him apparently.
(11:10)
That was the biggest thing on the holidays, that even though you were not with your
family, you were never alone.
Lessons (11:30)
He learned a lot about photography that even MSU did not know.
In those days, the military was way ahead compared to the civilian world.
Thing that civilians have today in their photography were not available to them at the
time included electrical built in lighting, and instant pictures.
They could shoot hundreds and hundreds of pictures and bring them back to the photo
interpreter’s hands within minutes.
They also had video that even Hollywood did not have available to them.
Post Duty (12:45)
He does not recall the day he left the service. It was a very busy day and he worked until
10.
He was running some photos through the equivalent of a 1-hour photo process and he and
his chief were the only ones who knew how to run it.
He remembered getting a call and telling his boss that he needed to finish processing the
photos because he had just been called to start signing out; today was his last day.
He boss said that he was busy and there was no one else to process the photos.
So he stayed there and processed photos for a while longer.
When he got out, he drove back to MSU and did not think about it any longer.
He went back to college immediately and had all of his classes set up so that he graduated
on time. He knew he was going to have to serve in the military, so it was not a bad thing.
(14:00)
His Navy training also looked good on his resume.
It was one of the things that helped him get a job right out of college.
He found out that he was a better writer than a photographer.
He liked shooting photos out of the back of a plane. If you have ever seen the movie
Hunt for Red October, it was similar to that.
They would take pictures of Russian subs that were forced to come up for air.
He had made a couple of close friendships, and keeps in touch with a couple of them
today. He’s made more friendships in 1993, since 1966 was such a long time ago.
(15:45)
Some of them have since died, and others he just lost touch with.
He is not a member of any veteran’s organizations, but he does support the VFW.
Unfortunately he does not qualify for that, but he does sign their petitions and buy things
from them.
There was no war to fight anyway, and he was out of the service by the time Vietnam
was in full swing.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LoucksA0967V
Title
A name given to the resource
Loucks, Avery (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Loucks, Avery
Description
An account of the resource
Avery Loucks served in the US Navy between 1962 and 1966, and remained in the Reserves until 1993. He served with an aerial reconnaissance unit based in the Caribbean while on active duty, and was called up during Desert Storm in 1991.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Huss, Joshua (Interviewer)
Parden, Damien (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-05-17
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9fe04bf19dec886e1d31abaf972a6641.mp4
3e94eeb4f08f6a5ca576ff30fa5f5b48
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9883646efe8322d4c046c0655ce09db9.pdf
1809f63d3bfb7a28dffb1786673ca2b1
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Robert Loftis
Total Time – (39:06)
Background
· He was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan – July 28, 1922
· His mother died when he was six years old (00:29)
o His brother was two years old at the time
o Moved to his grandparents farm in Marne, Michigan
· He went to a one-room school (01:02)
· Eventually moved back to Grand Rapids, Michigan
o His grandparents lost the farm during the Depression
· He graduated from Catholic Central High School in 1941 (01:50)
· He did not know much about the events of the war at this time
· He was surprised when Pearl Harbor was bombed
· A good friend was drafted
o He decided that his friend was not going to go without him so he went to
East Grand Rapids, Michigan and signed up (02:56)
Enlistment/Training – (02:57)
·
·
·
·
He enlisted in October, 1942
He worked at a bowling alley and other odd jobs during this time
Joined the Navy – was able to choose to join this branch (03:41)
Went to boot camp at Great Lakes, Illinois (03:57)
o Was in boot camp for 4-5 weeks
· Was able to go home for 9 days – traveled by train
· He was then taken to Treasure Island in San Francisco, California (04:22)
· At Great Lakes, soldiers had to run every morning and spend time learning about
the Navy (04:47)
o Discipline was stressed in boot camp
Active Duty – (05:16)
· From Treasure Island, he was sent to the destroyer USS Phelps – October, 1943
(05:23)
�·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
·
o The Japanese had missed this ship in Pearl Harbor
The USS Phelps was armed with anti-aircraft guns
o [5inch 38’s], 40mm, and torpedoes
Before he was put on the USS Phelps, he spent 6 months in the Aleutian Islands
(07:40)
A lot of the men on the ship got sea sick
His assignment was Signalman 3rd class (08:12)
o He learned how to interpret Morse code (08:52)
o He would flick a light on and off to communicate with other ships (09:20)
The trip to the Aleutians was rough
They immediately went after the Japanese once they got to the islands (10:00)
o They got within 1,500 yards of the beach
o The destroyer would get close to the beach
The Army and the Marines went ahead of them, but were not equipped for the
weather
There were 8 men in his division
o He worked 4 hours on, 8 hours off (11:35)
He was stationed in the bridge of the ship (11:38)
He reported to a 1st or 2nd class officer
Spent 6 months in the Aleutians (12:57)
It turned out that the information that they had was wrong and there were no
Japanese on the island [Kiska]
From the Aleutian Islands, they traveled to Pearl Harbor (13:28)
o There were ships all over the side and oil all over the harbor
He was able to venture onto the Hawaii mainland every morning (13:58)
They did not spend much time in Hawaii and quickly traveled to Makin Island
o They bombarded Makin Island (14:34)
Returned back to Pearl Harbor after this
They never encountered any Japanese ships or aircraft
The war was never intense for him (16:00)
o He was never worried about dying
There was a particular routine to life on the boats
o Had to spend a certain amount of time in the bridge of the ship
o Men would relieve the others very early
Men had their own bunks (17:17)
While on watch, the men often had to spray paint or scrape paint
Had to constantly flash the lights to communicate (18:10)
There was never any kind of entertainment on the ship
o The majority of the entertainment was in the ports (18:44)
o When they went ashore, they would go to the bars
There were black men on the ship
o They were segregated from the rest of the crew (19:59)
o They were servers
�· The food was nothing fancy – corn bread, green beans, potatoes
o Never had to eat army rations
· California and the Aleutian Islands were the only ports that he stopped in
· Once the war progressed, his ship went to the war in the Mariana Islands (21:57)
o During this time, he was on patrol duty
o The Japanese fired on them two times
· The Japanese were firing with similar weapons as the Americans (23:19)
· The Americans brought in a battleship to destroy the Japanese fleet (23:46)
o He remembers firing star shells all night to see where the Japanese were
(24:00)
· After the battle, they were sent back to the States (24:17)
· They went to Charleston, South Carolina (24:18)
o He was here for 3 months
o He landed in September, 1944 (24:30)
· He was given 3 months of liberty leave
o Went home and married his wife (24:42)
· He was able to write home fairly regularly
o He received mail every time mail was brought in
· Once he returned to Charleston, he was on the ship for another year (25:32)
· He then ran convoys out to Africa (25:36)
· There were not many German U-boats to worry about (25:49)
· Landed in North Africa - Algeria
o It was a little town with Arabs with donkeys, bathrooms where you tipped
ladies for its use, etc
· He was in New York City, New York when the announcement came that the war
was over (27:00)
o The city was going wild
· From New York, he traveled back to Charleston
· He never saw any Japanese aircraft
· He remembers when the Japanese strafed his ship with torpedoes that went
underneath their ships (29:35)
o The Americans thought the Japanese were Americans because the ships
looked similar
· He remembers seeing one Japanese man – he was a small man (30:40)
· He was promoted to signalman 2nd class when he followed his captain to another
ship (31:18)
After the Service – (31:20)
·
·
·
·
He was discharged in September, 1945 (31:42)
When he returned home he was already married
His wife had become pregnant on their honeymoon, but they lost that child
He started a trucking company called “Fleet Delivery Service” (32:35)
�· After that, he worked for Ward Plywood and Door Company
o From this, he ventured into the wood business
· He believes that young people would benefit from the service (33:52)
o Many young people today are “babies” – they do not have hard lives
· He had received battlefield stars from the war
· He was able to stay in touch with fellow Navy men (36:03)
o They all knew one another very well because they did not change crews
very often
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LoftisR0518V
Title
A name given to the resource
Loftis, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2004
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Loftis, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Loftis was born July 28, 1922 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He spent the majority of his childhood at his grandparents' farm in Marne, Michigan. Robert enlisted into the Navy in 1942 and was sent to Great Lakes, Illinois for boot camp where he spent nearly five weeks in training. After boot camp, he was sent to board the USS Phelps in Treasure Island near San Francisco, California. From California, he left for six months to fight the Japanese in the Aleutian Islands in the North Pacific Ocean. Robert spent the majority of his time in the Pacific Ocean and was designated as a Signalman 3rd class that used Morse code to communicate with other ships. He was discharged in September of 1945.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sirois, Pierre (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Navy
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2004-05-14
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87e2313fce3a7c8b4088ff5f7c5bfae5.mp4
f96c96e8cf8bed6b24fdcecb4b04426b
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d882f10c73db0d7ed51dfe1bd61c04d.pdf
66aa17c4ef54943409e28a19757cb5e8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee name: Jack Allen Lofgren
Length of Interview: 29 minutes 06 seconds –1942 to 1945
Pre-Enlistment (00:12)
•
Childhood (00:20)
o
•
Education (00:58)
o
•
Lofgren was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on June 16th, 1924. (00:28)
Briefly mentions that he went to Jefferson High School through the 10th Grade after
which time he joined the service. (01:08)
His Job (01:50)
o
Was working in Grand Rapids for Pontiac Automotive when he heard the news that
Pearl Harbor was attacked from home. Soon afterwards he found out that a cousin of
his had been killed in the attack. (02:00)
Enlistment/Basic Training (02:48)
•
•
Why he joined (02:56)
o
Lofgren mentions that he joined on Nov. 3, 1942 because he felt that it was his patriotic
duty to do so for his country. (02:59)
o
He enlisted into the Quartermasters Corps in the Army. (03:01)
Where he went and what company he served with (03:17)
o
Was sent to Fort Warren, Wyoming where he went to school first to learn about being a
quartermaster and then the signaling corps. (03:20)
o
Was then sent onto to Trussville, Florida where he attended radar school. While there
he learned how to identify planes and handling of the radar equipment. (03:33)
o
Briefly mentions that for a time he served aboard a P‐61 Black Widow and
stationary duty aboard 527s around the U.S. and overseas. While doing so, he
was working for the 50th Air Force. (04:39)
Boarded a Liberty troop transport ship for Europe. (05:40)
�o
At this point of the interview he outlines the places he saw battle. For instance he was
at Salerno, Naples, Anzio, Rome, and the major campaigns in Southern France and
heartland of Germany. (06:08)
Active Duty (08:51)
o
o
o
o
Sicily (09:07)
o
While preparing for the invasion of the Italian mainland here he recalls that the enemy
would frequently run bombing raids on Sicily while he working as a radar operator
there. (09:43)
o
While deployed in Sicily part of his job as a radar operator was to identify enemy planes
and then American bombers would drop something called “Window” which was made
of aluminum tin foil and so that enemy planes would not know where they were
coming. (09:55)
o
Takes a brief moment to mention that his father served in the Spanish American War
o
served with the Navy for about 24 years. (11:09)
Italian mainland (12:42)
o
Landed at Salerno and pushed on to Naples and Caserta and then to Anzio where he saw
his first action. (13:00)
o
Anzio (13:20)
Stationed along a highway near the beach. (13:24) During one of his experiences
there he mentions seeing an LST being destroyed. (13:30)
Also briefly describes some of the exploits of Audie Murphy one of the men in
his company [division?]. (14:16)
Battle of the Bulge (15:35)
o
While stationed about the mile from the front lines, Lofgren was assigned to the PI‐27
Radar Unit to protect the radar equipment. Describes what sort of equipment his van
was equipped with. In this way he avoided fighting at the Bulge. (16:01)
o
While talking to a buddy via the phone his mouthpiece is struck by a bullet at which he
walks away un‐phased. (17:43)
Into Germany (18:35)
o
After liberating Munich his unit was going down the Autobahn when they stopped and
liberated Dachau and the concentration camp there. (18:38)
�o
He describes how beautiful the area was outside the concentration camp compared to
the filth and awful smell of the camp itself. (19:18)
o
Before going into the camp he mentions being deloused. According to him once into the
camp he was shocked to see dead bodies rotting in flatcars and getting ready to be
burned. (19:52)
o
Mentions that German farmers used human ashes for fertilizer. (21:10)
o
His unit never made it to Berlin but instead was pulled back. On VE Day he was back in
camp enjoying good food and waiting to go home with many others. (21:29)
o
While waiting to go home he mentions the different types of food offered while
surviving on K‐rations for 107 days. (22:45)
Going Home (23:46)
o
Briefly mentions that he boarded a liberty ship for home and that it took 11 days to get
back to Norfolk, Virginia, where they had embarked before. (23:55)
o
From there, Lofgren mentions being sent on to Camp Sheridan, Illinois where he was
discharged. (25:24)
After the Service (25:39)
o
Adjusting to Home (25:46)
o
o
After being discharged, Lofgren got married and was married for 26 years. Briefly
discusses his children. (25:55)
Reflection (26:56)
o
Lofgren shares his thoughts about the impact that his time in the service had on him if
any. (27:18)
o
Interview Ends (29:06)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LofgrenJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Lofgren, Jack Allen (Interview outline and video), 2004
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lofgren, Jack Allen
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Lofgren is a World War II veteran who served in the Quartermasters Corps of the U.S. Army from November 1942 to 1945. In this account, Lofgren discusses his pre-enlistment, enlistment and basic training in the U.S. and his service time abroad. What is most interesting is the brief details he gives in regards to the fighting in Italy, S. France, and his acquaintanceship with Audie Murphy. Lofgren concludes by sharing what impact his time in the service had on him.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2004-06-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/22e173c50fa57a99a6c54f347b4d75b9.mp4
14a98809304e63267fc1136cd2970462
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/393250f6c0e72ddf9bf93271556aeeff.pdf
d186cbd673335b06b52708c0410514b2
PDF Text
Text
Albert Lobbezoo (54:45)
(00:15) Background information
Born in Olean, MI and raised on a farm
His family moved to another farm in Caledonia; the town was so small that they did not
have their own high school
Albert was done with school when he was thirteen and then he helped his parents with the
farm work
(2:30) The Thirties
He remembers news of the war being heard on the radio; they often talked about the
bombing of London
By October 13, 1940 everyone had to register for the draft who was 21-29 years old
The country was not ready for a war and Albert believes that the US had a weak defense
system at the time
He and his brother registered for the draft together
(3:25) Active Duty
Albert was called to active duty in April of 1941
He took a train from Grand Rapids, MI to Kalamazoo and then went to Fort Custer in
Battle Creek, MI
He spent two weeks at Fort Custer and there was not much to do
Albert joined the 32nd Infantry Division and was transported to Louisiana in a train to
Camp Livingston
(7:20) Training Maneuvers
Albert went through combat training in the Red and Blue Army
They had to sleep outside on the ground for six weeks; they were trained for combat in
the jungle
Albert was assigned to the infantry and then was transferred into the signal corps and
worked on a switch board at the 32nd division headquarters
(12:25) Pearl Harbor
Albert had been on his way home from church when Pearl Harbor was attacked and he
listened to the report on the radio
The next day it was announced that the US was in an actual war and the men were all in
for the duration of that war; not the one year that they had registered for
They were all divided up and assigned new duties; Albert had to guard infrastructure that
the Japanese might bomb
�
While he was guarding a bridge some girls brought him a bottle of wine; the people in
Louisiana were all very friendly
(17:00) Massachusetts
Albert’s unit was transferred to Massachusetts in the Spring of 1942
He drove a “carry-all”truck from Louisiana to Massachusetts to help transfer equipment
and the trip took three days
He ended up at Fort Devens and then was sent to New York
When he got to New York he found out that the ship he was supposed to board had
burned in the harbor
So he then had to take a train to San Francisco because there was news that McArthur
needed more troops
(21:42) San Francisco
He was put in a hotel near the harbor and the men went all over the city
They did not have any duties; they were just waiting for their ship to arrive and it took 2
weeks
Albert then boarded the USS Anton and they passed by Alcatraz
On the voyage they ran into an awful storm
They traveled in a convoy and had to take a zig zag course across the Pacific to avoid
enemy submarines
(24:05) The Voyage
Many of the men played poker to keep occupied
Albert found that many of the men were naïve because they believed they would be
coming back home very soon
The voyage took 23 days for them to reach southern Australia
In Australia the men continued their training
They traveled North and were allowed to visit Sydney
(29:45) New Guinea
They took a liberty ship to New Guinea; it was a very nice ship, but quite small
The Australians were already on the island
Albert went to do his work on switch boards while many of the other men fought in
combat
He worked in a small secluded tent and heard much of the news of progress during battles
Most of his outfit left for Port Moresby and Albert later took a plane back to Australia
He had two weeks off to spend relaxing on the beach, then they had to regroup and
received reinforcements
�
They traveled along the coast of New Guinea to make sure that everything was still
secure
Then they arrived in the Dutch East Indies and met up with the 33rd division
(40:45) The Philippines
There were still about 1,000 [?] Japanese in the Philippines
They stabilized the area and traveled around more islands in the Pacific to make sure that
they were secure
Albert noted that many of the areas were almost completely destroyed and so they did not
have much contact with the local populations
The few people that they did see were all thankful to see the Americans
Albert set up a communications switch board in a small resort island
The war had ended and he was waiting for his notice of relief
He then traveled to Manila while the rest of his division went to Japan
He was just one of two men from the whole division that got separated and was waiting
in manila
They eventually boarded a small ship, which had been captured from the Germans, and
they headed for San Francisco
(45:30) Back in the US
Albert took a train to Chicago and was greeted very well
He went to work for the city of Grand Rapids, but it was too boring and he only lasted for
six weeks
He then worked at GM for a while, but missed farming work
Albert bought a farm across the street from where he grew up
Albert noted that being in the service makes you a more thankful person and allows one
to appreciate their freedom
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LobbezooA0515V
Title
A name given to the resource
Lobbezoo, Albert (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lobbezoo, Albert
Description
An account of the resource
Albert Lobbezoo grew up on a small farm in Michigan and was drafted in the Army in April of 1941. Albert worked as a switchboard operator for the 32nd Infantry Division headquarters in New Guinea, the Dutch East Indies and the Philippines between 1942 and 1945.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.)
BCTV
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-10-25
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f73a0a40688b8a8d8f5eefd2283ea47.mp4
a90fb7de4dfd39033363fc0a9090ae3f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a85286c22d0a2bcbeba893ae8ff19dce.pdf
0bb17412020d59267f112a0403c34e96
PDF Text
Text
Interview Notes
(Length 46:48)
Jim Lloyd
WWII Veteran
United States Army: 1942‐1946
• Born in Rogers Park Chicago 1922
• Attended Rogers Sullivan High School
• Attended Notre Dame College 1940‐Arts and Literature Major‐Degree in economics.
• Father‐Catalog Editor for Montgomery Ward
• Mother‐PTA
• Married 1942‐present
(2:13) Beginning of Experience:
• Heard about Pearl Harbor on the radio at home
• Enlisted in Army Summer 1942‐Halfway through sophomore year of college
• Signed up for immediate duty
(4:30) Wichita, Kansas‐‐Training 1942
• Flight school
• Testing for placement‐ Group #1
• Assigned to college for 1 month‐Geography course
• Quarantined on Base for a disease outbreak‐didn’t affect him‐ couldn’t meet up with girls off
base that night (27:55)
• Close to Oklahoma border
(26:15) Arkansas
• Knee went out‐sent off to hospital for bone chips (Walnut Ridge, Memphis)
•
Lived in a college dorm not a base
•
(6:40) Memphis Tennessee
Military forgot to send X‐Rays‐were lost
•
Visited by the Surgeon General of the Air Force in Kennedy Hospital(44:56)
•
They said “What are you doing here?”
•
ACL Replacement
•
Wrecked ride at amusement park –crutch got stuck in mechanics of ride(45:33)
(7:58) Gulf Port Mississippi
�•
3 Unsuccessful surgeries
•
Grounded from Air Cadet
•
Super Secret Air Force bomber‐officer ran
•
Took qualifying exam to run bomber‐passed
•
•
•
(8:56) Denver 1943‐1944 approximately 1 ½ years (located near Lowry Airport presently
known as De Fault)
Greeted by military officials again as “What are you doing here?”
Armament repair work‐local gun torrents
Graduated
•
•
(10:00) Instructor for newly opened school for remote control bomber
2nd Teacher on D‐Shift 12‐7a.m. in Brick Barracks
Taught H‐3‐given syllabus in advanced electronics‐he did not understand‐had students help
teach class
B‐29 bomber came in finally‐wheels didn’t work
Military personnel were European veterans needing to be retrained
•
•
•
•
•
(13:45) Court‐martialed
Answered role for another in PT‐no consequences‐1944
Received Good Conduct Medal‐1943
Met his wife at the USO‐1944‐moved from base to apartment
Made $53.00 a month
School closed up
•
•
(18:20) Shepherdsfield Texas
Asked “What are you doing here?”‐wrong aircraft experience
Spent 1 week before transferring on
•
(18:50)Grand Island Nebraska Mid 1945‐spent 7‐8 months here
Joined bomb service group heading for Alaska
•
•
•
•
Full Bomb Service Station‐qualified on the m30 carbine
Assigned to the Instrument Panel Group‐no idea how to run it‐military admits did not know
where else to put him
•
Taught shooting the carbine to personnel
•
Assigned a jeep and a driver‐would go crow hunting
�•
Hitch‐hiked to N. Dakota to visit wife‐farmer and family gives rides to uniformed Jim
•
Stayed in jail overnight for hitch‐hiking‐brought to edge of town in morning
(29:57)Returned to Notre Dame
(30:37)1st National Bank
•
Chicago Illinois‐training program
•
Gap of knowledge with other trainees
•
Uncle was former officer at the bank
•
Ended training program early because of extensions in program‐ 6mo. To 3 yrs.
•
(33:45)University of Chicago
Received MBA‐night school
(34:33)Lived near Wrigley Field
Had wife and 2 kids at time
•
Lived Broadway and Adley [Addison?]
•
Only Catholic family in Jewish neighborhood
•
(36:30)GE Supply Company
Worked from Warehouse to Asst. Traffic Appliance Salesman to Manager of Traffic Appliance.
•
(38:00)Park Ridge
•
Worked for Warring Products (Chicago)‐makers of blenders
•
Switched jobs with friend from Wisconsin for West Bend
•
•
(38:40)Wisconsin
Worked for West Bend Aluminum Company
Became sales manager for entire East Coast in a product division
•
(38:58)Bissell‐Michigan
Recruited‐flew to visit plant‐turned down job
•
Met old man Bissell
�•
Re‐recruited by Mel Bissell‐President of company‐accepted job offer
Brother was also in military in the South Pacific‐flying‐served two tours as flyer of a
photographic plane‐given Distinguished Flying Cross medal (43:38)
(41:30)Military Experience overlook
Felt his experience was one of negotiations and no self preservation. He learned to get along with
people who helped in later on in sales service. No long lasting friendship but overall a good experience.
He is in favor of compulsory military for all people. Good idea to have training at all times for people to
know what to do.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LloydJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Lloyd, James (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lloyd, James
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Lloyds experience in the military began when an ample amount of recruits entering simultaneously and according to Jim the military had no idea what to do with the new recruits. From Chicago to Texas, the military was shipping him from base to base with no orders of why he was there. Upon his arrival they would always ask him why he was there and Jim would have no skills to assist each base he arrived at. He was used for positions as a teacher of gun torrents and advanced electronics which he was unprepared for but made the best of each situation. He was able to adapt well into military life regardless of their lack of efficient placement of his person. He was transferred around often enough that he never made it into active duty during the war. As the war ended he returned to life back in the states, where he returned to his wife and his family. His experience shaped his ability to adapt to changing circumstances but created no life long friendships from the military.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-11-17
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8fbcb70e8633ca6bdf046147f3224b1c.mp4
c299d03b7f6c6c2c190261da5b375317
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f63661ac6a25a6092ad94acd17347b59.pdf
df9ae079cec3d59aca7a06e0ef931529
PDF Text
Text
GrandValleyStateUniversity
Veterans History Project
Robert Livo
(45:55)
Background Information ()
Born in DetroitMichigan, but lived in DearbornMichigan. (00:30)
His father was a manager of a department store and his mother was a registered nurse. (00:46)
He attended Catholic school in Dearborn. (1:50)
When he was young and in public school, he would get in fights with other kids, play hooky and
even steal money. (2:15)
He sold popcorn door to door. He also sold sprinklers door to door for money. (3:10)
In his senior year of High school he worked in the basement of the Coca Cola bottling company.
(4:25)
He joined the Naval Reserves in 1953. He did this because he knew the Navy would give him a
warm place to sleep at night and because he liked the sea. (4:43)
Because of previous experience, when Robert was placed aboard ship he was placed in the
electronics department. (5:50)
Service in the Reserve (6:15)
When sailors came into port they were often given 30 days leave. When they arrived in port,
order was put in for Reserve men to fix equipment. (6:34)
He was assigned to fix the radio wave guard of the ship. While he was doing the repair his hat
blew off and he was so frustrated he did not continue the repair. (7:20)
Robert’s striker continued and finished the repair. (8:50)
There were a lot of complaints Robert recalls about food. He didn’t see it as being bad. He
always thought it was good. (9:25)
For his training, Robert was given 2 weeks at Great Lakes Naval Base and then another 2 weeks
aboard a patrol craft out of MilwaukeeWisconsin. (10:44)
Before going aboard his patrol craft, Robert was able to convince a girl in town to go on a date
with him. (11:28)
Robert thought that the training the Navy gave used his resources effectively. (12:18)
Robert’s unit was fairly mixed ethnically. (12:46)
One of the things the men would do would strike each other on the shoulder as a bonding
exercise and to job about how tough each other were. (13:32)
Practical jokes were fairly common. (15:05)
Service in Brazil ()
This mission was to refuel cable layers that were used to lay cables to aid in missile and torpedo
radar. (16:15)
During this assigned he had 18 days in Brazil. He was glad to go on this trip because he wanted
to see the world and see exotic places. (17:00)
He took pictures while in Brazil, however the camera jammed and the film was not recovered.
(19:04)
�
While on the ship they would commonly show films. The men enjoyed this very much. (20:22)
Exiting the Military and College ()
Technically Robert was supposed to serve 2 years. (1953-1955) (21:05)
Due to admission into the UniversityMichigan, Robert was allowed an early and honorable
discharge. He was let out in September rather than November. (21:16)
At the end of his first semester Robert was out of money. What he did was found a job working
as a cook in a sorority. He was allowed one meal a week for this job. (21:47)
Robert was given a grant for his books and tuition. (22:33)
Robert was studying political science. He had no intent with continuing his courses with
electronics. (22:45)
Robert attended HenryFordCommunity College before attending the UniversityMichigan.
Robert did have an agreement with his mother where as long as he was enrolled in college he
could stay at home without paying room or board. (24:07)
Robert was talked into transferring to WayneStateUniversity from HenryFordCommunity
College on the proposition that they had better looking girls. (25:13)
Career in Law (27:31)
Robert used the GI bill to get through law school. He attended the school at night. (27:37)
Robert also divorced his first wife at this time. Law school was a positive funnel of his negative
energy. (27:40)
He had 2 boys with his first wife and 1 daughter with his second wife. (29:31)
Robert practiced law for 9 years. (30:15)
Robert began working in CheboyganMichigan after a very long process of pursuing a job. (31:08)
Robert worked as a circuit judge for the next 17 years. (31:58)
He did contract emphysema from smoking and diabetes. (33:36)
Life at Veteran’s Facility (34:11)
While driving his car of a job assigned, Robert noticed something was wrong with his leg. Later
that night he had serious problems occulting with his what he thought was his diabetes. Instead,
his emphysema was acting up. (34:40)
Robert took himself to the hospital and treated. (35:19)
He was recommended to go to the Veterans Home in 2010 by his daughter. He was not opposed
to the idea. Since he has gone there, he believes that it has made things much easier. (37:30)
Robert works on the member council and addressing problems such as faulty vending machines.
(38:58)
Surprisingly veterans are very hard group of people to lead. (41:31)
Thoughts on Service (43:00)
Robert joined the military to see how he stacked up against all the other young men. (43:10)
Robert believes he stacked up reasonably well. (44:16)
He feels sad for people who have not had the experience of the military. He thinks that the
experience was over all very rewarding. (44:33)
��
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LivoR1249V
Title
A name given to the resource
Livo, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Livo, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Livo, born in Detroit Michigan, serve in the U.S. Naval reserves from 1953-approximately 1954 to 1955. During his service, Robert went thought most of his training at Great Lakes Naval Base in Illinois. The men were put to work often cleaning and repairing ships that had come into port. Robert worked in the electronics department. He was also sent on a small cruise assigned to refill line layers in the South Atlantic. During this cruise Robert was given 18 days in Brazil.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Moore, Debra (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-09-09
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e59ad1d942642bd7f99c2742807430f.mp4
d96191bf1f591ec00c736ac6f76b14e2
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0c2150b7c8c9e47c200be6fbae055471.pdf
a249e100ad4250c46cd7320e2cd8a361
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Fred Litty
WWII (German Civilian)/Korean War
1 hour 18 minutes 20 seconds
(00:00:12) Early Life and Moving to Germany
-Born in Yonkers, New York in 1930
-Had an uncle on his mother’s side living in New York City area that had helped his parents
-Family lived in New York for about four and a half to five years
-Mother, who was from Germany, wanted to return to her homeland
-He, one sister, and his mother moved to Germany in spring 1935
-Lived with relatives in Berlin
-Father and his other sister came over later
-Family lived together in a suburb of Berlin called Lankwitz
-Attended school there
-Father worked in the German equivalent of General Electric
(00:03:49) Awareness of Nazism While Growing Up
-Teachers had to be approved by the Nazi Party
-Doesn’t recall being brainwashed by them, at least in an aggressive way
-Recalls that Hitler did a good job of protecting his image
-When the war ended Hitler’s true identity was revealed to the German people
-Schools pushed enrollment in, and the government mandated joining, the Hitler Youth
-To many Germans, it didn’t seem like an odd thing to have
-Indoctrination was definitely occurring in Hitler Youth camps
-Some normal values were being instilled though, besides the politics
-As he got older he started to realize that the news was biased
-Noticed that Hitler made a point of being, or appearing to be, friendly with Christians
(00:08:17) Awareness of Pre-War Tension
-Noticed an increase in the amount of subjective news being broadcast
-Father was too old to be drafted before the war, but eventually was in 1942
-And he himself was too young
-Hitler Youth began to engage in war games
-Later on realized that it was preparation
-Either for when they served in the German Army
-Or for if the Nazi regime needed to use Hitler Youth as a reserve force
(00:09:12) World War II Pt. 1
-He was only eight years old when Germany invaded Poland and the war began
-He remembers how the state made it apparent that Germany was being victorious
-Defeat of any country that it went up against
-Made it seem that Germany controlled most, if not all of Europe, without issue
-Also convinced the German public that they had been attacked and provoked
-His parents started to become suspicious of the Nazi regime
-Why would Germany have so many enemies?
-How is any of this logical?
�-Aryan ideology started to become more fervently espoused
-Anti-Semitic policies and feelings increased dramatically
-Regular people were being socially conditioned
-Controlled by authority figures and vindicated by pseudo-science/philosophy
(00:15:01) World War II Pt. 2
-In 1943 the tide of the war began to turn against Germany
-By this time his father was now in the German Army
-He had been deployed to the Eastern Front
-Worked as a truck driver
-Forever emotionally scarred by being included in war crimes
-German children were being moved to safe areas by order of the government
-One such area was a ski lodge in the mountainous area of southern Poland
-Another area was a resort on the Baltic Sea
-Went there in the spring of 1943
-Recalls that it was a vacation
-Lessons on Nazism then playtime
-While there heard the bombs being dropped on Peenemunde (famous air raid)
-After Peenemunde Air Raid he and his sister were sent home to Lankwitz
(00:20:18) World War II Pt. 3
-The night he came home from the Baltic Sea their suburb was bombed
-Went into the basement of their apartment complex when the sirens went off
-Went into a particular corner with his mother and sisters which saved him
-Could feel the pressure of the bombs going off outside
-Apartment inevitably collapsed on top of them
-Destroyed part of their apartment
-Rescued by German civil guards
-Upon leaving the rubble noticed that everything was engulfed in flames
-He and his family went to a nearby park and collected themselves
-The next day the area was still on fire
-Any kind of loud rumble still triggers strong emotions
(00:27:09) End of the War Pt. 1
-He and his family were moved to a local German Army training camp first
-Had to find a place where they could live besides a military installation
-Went and lived with an uncle in Saxony
-Stayed there from August 1943 to August 1944
-He was still able to attend school even during the war
-Eventually regrouped with his mother and sisters in a small, rural German village
-North of Berlin and very close to the end of the war
-Father was still fighting in the German Army
-Worked and lived on a farm in that area
(00:29:24) End of the War Pt. 2
-When Germany surrendered the Russians entered the area he was living in
-Germans had a good relationship with the Allied Forces
-Germans did not have a good relationship with the Soviet Forces
-Russians committed atrocities against German civilians
-Theft and rape were extremely common
�-Lack of discipline or professionalism in the Red Army
-Once had a drunk Russian soldier threaten to execute him and a friend
-Another time two Russians dragged him and a group of friends into the woods
-Going to be executed
-One of the boy’s mothers and a family member showed up
-The two women were raped
-Boys were allowed to go free
-Atrocities continued throughout the summer of 1945 until order returned to the region
(00:36:50) Post War Germany
-Father returned home from the war and the family moved back to Berlin
-Got a small rental property in September 1945
-After a few months a sense of order began to return to Germany
-Whole blocks of Berlin were still piles of rubble though
-Went back to school and a sense of normalcy began to return to life
-Living in Berlin was still precarious
-Surrounded by territory occupied by the Red Army
-Family lived in the American Sector of Berlin
-Made it easy to establish that he and his sister were U.S. citizens
-Got treated very well by the American authorities
-Eventually he and sister were approved to return to the United States as citizens
-While in Berlin the Allied troops were very respectful of the German civilians
-As long as you followed the rules and behaved you were treated well
-Given aid when it was needed
-Even after the war the Allies still provided them with food and basic luxuries
(00:42:23) Moving to the United States
-He and his sister returned to the U.S. with other German-American expatriates
-Boarded a troop ship bound for America in Bremerhaven, Germany
-Landed in New York City in 1946
-Lived with uncle that lived in New York City
-Stayed with him until their parents and sister came over three years later
-Adjusted quickly to American life
-Instantly felt welcomed and immersed into American society
-Never felt animosity from Americans
-Most Americans were, if anything, curious about what it had been like
-When parents came over his father found work relatively quickly in America
-Family moved into an apartment together
-Enjoyed being in a safe environment after enduring World War II in Germany
-Was able to attend high school
-Wound up graduating and only being a year older than his classmates
-Attended day and night classes at a local college to become an engineer
(00:48:37) Getting Drafted into the U.S. Army and Training
-He was living with his parents when the Korean War began
-At the time he was twenty years old
-Got drafted in October 1951
-Had just begun his second year of college
-Also had a job in a drafting and design department in downtown New York City
�-Sent to Oahu, Hawaii for basic training
-Spent sixteen weeks in Hawaii for basic and infantry training
(00:51:11) Details on Basic Training
-The Hawaiian environment was hard to adjust to
-Trained day and night
-Went to Waikiki Beach
-Adjacent to Pearl Harbor
-Average, expected emphasis on discipline by the drill instructors
-Lived in Schofield Barracks
-Open and spacious living quarters
-Relatively small Army installation
-Didn’t have any training that was unusually difficult, or easy
-Adjusted fairly quickly to military living
-The only thing that bothered him was the complaining from other recruits
-Felt that it was a good training experience
(00:55:20) Deployment to Korea
-After training he was given a short leave
-Returned to New York from California and had to pay his own way
-Expensive trip
-At the end of his leave he had to report to Camp Stoneman, California
-Left San Francisco, California on a troop transport bound for Korea
-Remembers eating well on the voyage over
-Landed in Pusan, South Korea
-Assigned to the 27th Infantry Regiment of the 25th Infantry Division
-He was made a part of mortar platoon
-Arrived in May/June 1952
-Most heavy fighting was already over with and a stable front had been established
(00:59:05) Korean War-Frontline Duty
-Only went to the front to secure the line in the event of a breach
-Stationed in a large valley surrounded by hills and mountains
-Duty consisted of night patrols and probing enemy positions
-Basically letting North Korean and Chinese forces know there was an American
presence
-He noticed there was a heavy use of turncoat spies by U.S. forces
-Used North Korean POWs to go collect information
-He and his unit once had to recover a unit that had gotten stuck in a minefield
-Sent in as a rescue and recovery team since the other soldiers were wounded
-The enemy was aware they were there, but decided not to engage them
-Knew that engagement would mean heavy retaliation
-Stayed on the frontline for six weeks
(01:02:50) Korean War-Office Duty
-A position opened up in a rear office
-Meant a longer stay in Korea, but it would get him out of a combat position
-Late in the summer of 1952 he took the rear position
-He didn’t want to be in a position where he might have to kill or hurt someone
-Assigned to a record keeping position
�-He and the other record keepers slept in tents
-Very cold during the winter
-Had to make efficient use of stoves and sleeping bags
-They operated in an impoverished, agricultural area
-Job consisted of record keeping for a company in his regiment
-Kept track of what each soldier and unit was doing on a daily basis
-Didn’t take any casualties in his area
(01:07:20) Korean War-Downtime and Relationship with Civilians
-Allowed to go off base when off duty
-Had to use caution when doing so
-Landmines were still a prevalent threat in the area
-Americans were viewed as heroes by the South Korean farmers
-Had been saved from the onslaught of North Korean soldiers by the U.S.
-Had a three day R&R in Seoul and Japan
-Flew over to Japan on the world’s largest aircraft at the time
-Slept in clean beds, ate very well, and given haircuts
-Not long after his R&R the Armistice was signed and the war was over
(01:12:00) Korean War-End of War and Coming Home
-In early September 1953 soldiers started to return home
-He stayed in Korea for a total of fourteen months
-Returned home to New York City and was discharged from the Army there
-Discharge process took about two days
-Welcomed home by the parents
(01:13:25) Life after the War
-Went back to school and completed the engineering course
-Had to register for classes the same day he got discharged from the Army
-Got a bachelor’s degree in engineering
-Became a mechanical engineer
-Worked for a variety of companies before moving to Grand Rapids, Michigan
-As time went on became involved with companies that were moving into aerospace equipment
-Got a job with an aerospace company in Grand Rapids, Michigan
(01:15:10) Reflection on Experiences and Service
-Listening to other’s experiences from WWII has filled in the gaps for him
-The stories he has heard has brought to life the true horror of the war
-Felt blessed by God in light of what he has survived/escaped and what others have endured
-Has deep admiration for the resolve that those who suffered have
-Writing memoir has forced, and allowed him to reexamine his memories
-Pressure free reexamination
-Allowed him to better understand his experiences during WWII and Korea
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LittyF1587V
Title
A name given to the resource
Litty, Fred (Interview outline and video), 2014
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Litty, Fred
Description
An account of the resource
Fred Litty is a Korean War veteran that also was a civilian living in Germany during World War II. He was born a U.S. citizen in Yonkers, New York in 1930, but at the age of five his family moved back to Germany and lived in a Berlin suburb. He describes his experiences before and during the war, discussing the Hitler Youth program, his father's military service on the Eastern Front, surviving bombing raids, multiple moves, and finally the atrocities committed by the Red Army in 1945. As a US citizen, he was allowed to move to the American sector of West Berlin, and he and his family returned to New York. In October 1951 he was drafted into the U.S. Army and was deployed to fight in the Korean War. He was assigned to a mortar platoon of the 27th Infantry Regiment of the 25th Infantry Division. He served on the front line for six weeks until he was reassigned to a position in the rear in record keeping, and returned home and was discharged in 1953.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-03-20
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4a82e7000afe5fad63fc3a67d217d0b.m4v
6d194511eb83ccc5dc8926b88868aff4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d1fdeea2fd45aedfc6ac0ce83749442.pdf
727e3e412c076f30bf627eb1f2bd29ac
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Bernie Link
Length of interview: 01:02:42:00
Born in Detroit, Michigan in 1925 (00:00:53:00)
His parents immigrated to the United States from Germany in 1923 along with his older
brother, who was three at the time (00:00:57:00)
o He has often said in response to the question of “what is the best thing that ever
happened to you” was the day that his mother and father got off the boat at Ellis
Island (00:01:06:00)
o The Lord only knows what insanity they would have been caught up in while in
Europe (00:01:20:00)
His father had fought in the German army for four years having grown up
in what was then East Prussia and was seventeen miles from Paris [no
German forces were that close by that time, but they had penetrated that
far earlier] when the armistice was declared and he wanted no part of that
again (00:01:24:00)
Went to Fitzgerald Grade School in Detroit and because there were no buses then, the
brothers walked well over a mile to school (00:01:47:00)
His parents lost their house during the Great Depression in 1936, forcing the family to
move, which was a traumatic experience (00:01:57:00)
o He went to another grade school and finished his schooling at Northwestern High
School in 1943 (00:02:06:00)
The attack on Pearl Harbor was one of the dates that “you never forget”, but not
necessarily because of what happened (00:02:21:00)
o At about 10:30 in the morning, he was in the tenth grade and all activity at the
high school ceased while they carried FDR’s speak to Congress on Monday,
December 8th over the loudspeaker system (00:02:28:00)
o If that was not enough excitement for one day, when Link got home, he learned
that his older brother, who was five years, had enlisted in the Marine Corps
(00:02:46:00)
His brother never said a word about it to anyone; his attitude was if
someone wanted to do something, then do it and do not make a big display
about it (00:03:05:00)
There was some general conversation about the situation abroad and how the United
States would avenge the attack on Pearl Harbor (00:03:31:00)
o The way that they kept abreast of the news was on the radio but other than that, he
does not any specific recollections about revenge (00:03:45:00)
o Life continued on pretty normally for them (00:04:03:00)
He graduated high school in the summer of 1943 and went to downtown Detroit to enlist
in the Marine Corps and follow in the footsteps of his brother; however, the Marines
turned him down because of his eyesight (00:04:13:00)
�
He was a stock-boy at the local A&P store at the time and his manager, a man by the
name of Paul Bond, was Sean Connery before there was a Sean Connery (00:04:32:00)
o Bond had served in the Marines in China for roughly eight years and he told
Link’s mother not to worry, that the Marines would not take him (00:04:44:00)
Link looked at this as a challenge so that when he was drafted a little bit later in 1943, he
will never forget the experience (00:05:01:00)
o When he had finished his physical, a Navy Lieutenant was sitting there and he
asked Link “Army or Navy” (00:05:11:00)
o When he said “Marine Corps”, the Lieutenant said very indignantly “I said,
‘Army or Navy’”, to which Link replied, “I said Marine Corps” (00:05:20:00)
o They had been through this many times before because there was a Marine
gunnery sergeant standing over to the side with ten or twelve other men and the
Lieutenant turned and asked if he wanted Link, as if he were a piece of meat
(00:05:34:00)
o The gunnery sergeant looked him up and down and said “Yeah, they would take
him” (00:05:49:00)
The Marines later notified him that he would be shipping out to San Diego boot camp on
December 23rd (00:06:03:00)
o His mother could not understand that Link was so important to the war effort that
he had to leave two days before Christmas; however, the program was set and he
had to go (00:06:13:00)
There were seventeen men from Detroit that got on the train to Chicago and on to San
Diego, where the men were inducted into Marine Corps boot camp (00:06:27:00)
o The men had one exciting incident during the train trip to California
(00:06:44:00)
Their train passed a train full of Navy enlistees and Link’s train had two
men from Marine Corps aboard, who were dressed in their dress blue
uniforms (00:06:48:00)
One of the Marines was cocky and when one of the sailors made the
mistake of commenting about the Marines being “seagoing bellhops”, the
Marines’ response nearly caused a riot (00:06:58:00)
o The train trip took three days to get out to San Diego, although the men ended up
stopping at a railroad depot in Santa Fe (00:07:32:00)
o Because he was with that group of men for so long and they were so close
together on the train, Link and the other men developed a camaraderie between
one another (00:07:47:00)
Link had pneumonia in July, 1943 and had recovered, but when he got in boot camp, he
got sick again in January, 1944, which caused him to miss training with his original
platoon (00:07:59:00)
o He was in the hospital for about two weeks and the Marines felt that he had
missed too much, so they reassigned him (00:08:15:00)
Link often wonders what impact the reassignment had on his life and
where he would have gone had it not been for the reassignment
(00:08:23:00)
o Because of the reassignment, Link lost track of the other sixteen men that traveled
with him on the train from Detroit to San Diego (00:08:32:00)
�
The experience of going into the Marine Corps at that time, with the discipline and
actions that the instructors did, was quite an adjustment (00:08:55:00)
o It seemed as if the drill instructors went out of their way to do everything they
could to humiliate the trainees and break them down before starting to rebuild
them (00:09:14:00)
The instructors could do some of the darnedest things that made no rhyme or reason;
however, the men were not in a position to challenge them (00:09:27:00)
o One of the first experiences Link recalls was when the men were standing in line
at the sick-bay to receive some shots, the drill instructor ordered all the men to
raise their left foot (00:09:40:00)
All the men raised their left foot and then the drill instructor ordered them
to raise their right foot (00:09:53:00)
The instructor would always get into someone’s face and chew them out,
asking “who ordered them to lower their left foot” (00:10:04:00)
o Sometimes, the instructors would call the men out at two o’clock in the morning
in the pouring rain and tell them they were going to go on a forced march
(00:10:16:00)
The men would get ready and would be standing in the pouring rain while
the drill instructor would be talking to the men from inside a hut; after
barking orders at the men for half an hour, the instructor would call off the
march (00:10:23:00)
Meanwhile, the trainees would walk back inside their barracks madder
than hell, ready to tear the walls down (00:10:44:00)
o Other times, during drills out on the parade field, if a trainee would screw up, the
instructor would tell the trainee to run over to a large Lockheed airfield next to the
depot and ask if a plane was taking off (00:10:55:00)
The distance was about a mile from the parade field to the airfield and the
trainee would have to run a mile to the airfield, then return and often
report that no plane was taking off (00:11:11:00)
If the instructor did not like the trainee at all or he really wanted to make
an impression, then he would tell the trainee to go back and check again,
because maybe there was a plane taking off then (00:11:20:00)
While the men were in basic training, the Marines were forming the 5th Marine Division
at Camp Pendleton and once Link’s boot camp platoon finished with the eight weeks of
boot camp, the entire platoon was assigned to the division (00:11:20:00)
o Personally, Link was assigned to the 28th Marine Regiment (00:12:13:00)
o The 28th Marines was housed in a tent camp out in the boondocks of Camp
Pendleton (00:12:24:00)
o At the time, a standard Marine division had three infantry regiments and within
each regiments were three battalions and within each battalion were three
companies (00:12:41:00)
There were also support groups such as artillery and armored in the
division but the main fighting force consisted of the three infantry
regiments (00:12:55:00)
A battalion typically had between eight hundred and one thousand men,
with two hundred or so men assigned to each company (00:13:09:00)
�
At this time, Link was a private, although he was later elevated to the rank private first
class (PFC), the rank at which he remained for the majority of the rest of his tour
(00:13:28:00)
At some point, the corporal above Link decided that Link would make a good Browning
Automatic Rifleman (00:13:51:00)
o Link was not one of the biggest guys in the platoon and although Link put up a
fight and asked the corporal to give the B.A.R. to one of the bigger men in the
platoon, the corporal stood fast (00:13:57:00)
o Within his platoon, there were three squads, which were further broken down into
four-man units and each unit had both a leader and a Browning Automatic
Rifleman (00:14:15:00)
o The problem with being the Browning Automatic Rifleman was not so much the
rifle itself, but the magazines of ammunition on the belt; there were about fifteen
magazines and each weighed over a pound (00:14:30:00)
Everyday, Link trained on the rifle range with the B.A.R. and everyday, the men did
something to train for the inevitable day that they would be in combat (00:14:52:00)
o While at Camp Pendleton, the men would go out on forced marches and
maneuvers, “snooping and pooping”, as the men used to call it, which became a
daily routine (00:15:02:00)
At some point, the Marines set up a program to alleviate some of the congestion of Los
Angeles from Marines on liberty leave, so the men were on duty for ten days then off for
three days, rather than having liberty leave every weekend (00:15:18:00)
o Because of this new program, the men trained right through Saturdays and
Sundays (00:15:42:00)
The men had no idea whatsoever where they were going, except that they were going to
end up somewhere in the Pacific; Link does not even know if by early 1944 whether it
had been decided the role that the 5th Marine Division would play (00:15:48:00)
o In training, the men did not have much in the way of news because they did not
have television and they had little in the way of radio or newspapers; however,
when they went on liberty leave into Los Angeles, the men picked up some clues
as to what was going on (00:16:33:00)
During liberty leave, the men did not have much money, only $21 a month from the
Marines, so they were not able to do much (00:17:07:00)
o When Link and his buddies would go on liberty leave, they would go to the Clark
Hotel in downtown Los Angeles and if someone got a room, they did not want the
fact to be known because the other men would pile into the room; more than once
Link ended up sleeping in the bathtub (00:17:16:00)
o While on liberty leave, the men would go to band concerts at one of the parks in
the city and hang out at a pavilion (00:17:46:00)
o To get to Los Angeles, they would thumb a ride usually from Camp Pendleton to
Laguna Beach and from Laguna Beach, they would thumb a ride north to into the
city (00:18:18:00)
o For the most part, the civilians were very cordial and supportive of the Marines
(00:18:42:00)
�
One time, when the men were thumbing for rides in Laguna Beach, a
couple invited them to their home, where the men had a bite to eat and
some conversation before getting back on the road (00:18:50:00)
o By coincidence, the parents of a friend of Link’s, who had originally lived in
Detroit, had moved to Glendale, California and eventually, after the parents and
Link got connected, he went up and spent a weekend with the parents
(00:19:10:00)
o Some of the men had family connections in the city and they had a different
experience than the men who spent the three day leave bumming around the city
(00:19:37:00)
o After the three days were over, the men would catch the train back to Oceanside
and Camp Pendleton (00:19:54:00)
In August, 1944, the men shipped out to the big island of Hawaii (00:20:21:00)
o Pulling up to Hawaii from a distance was a big impression because the island was
all green and nothing like anything any of the men had ever seen; from a distance,
the island looked like one huge golf course (00:20:36:00)
o The men landed at Hilo, Hawaii and they were trucked up to a position named
Camp Tarawa on the side of one of the volcanoes (00:21:00:00)
The area was different terrain all together; the camp had every different
type of terrain imaginable, including dustbowls from the volcano damage
and jungles that were in the clouds all day (00:21:13:00)
o The men spent their entire time at Camp Tarawa in training, which consisted of
the men being out in the field every day doing maneuvers and assaulting
imaginary pillboxes; a lot of the training was conditioning, due to the men doing a
large amount of walking (00:21:34:00)
There was still no indication of where the men would be headed (00:22:12:00)
Eventually, the men left Camp Tarawa and went to the island of Maui and did some
practice landings with Higgins boats, something that they had also done in California
(00:22:19:00)
o While doing the landings in California, President Roosevelt and Secretary of the
Navy Forrestal witnessed one of the landings; the men could see all the dignitaries
on a platform overlooking the beach (00:22:41:00)
They did the practice landings on Maui and then the men went into Pearl Harbor until the
Marines organized everything and the ships were supplied with provisions (00:22:57:00)
o The men stayed in three-day routine; on any given day: one-third of the troops
stayed aboard ship, one-third of the troops stayed on the ship but did guard duty,
and one-third had liberty leave (00:23:10:00)
o The men never really got over to Pearl Harbor proper; they spent most of their
time at Waikiki Beach, which mostly gave the men the ability to go swimming in
the ocean, something that constituted the majority of their recreation while on
liberty leave (00:23:41:00)
o Some of the older men would go hang out in the bars but this was not something
that Link was attracted to (00:24:07:00)
Eventually, the men boarded ship and departed Hawaii but before they left, Link saw an
article in a Honolulu paper that talked about the bombing of Iwo Jima; however, there
was no indication from any of their officers where they were headed (00:24:21:00)
�
o Link does not know if a lot of his officers even knew where they were headed; if
the Marines were going to break the news of their assignment, they were going to
wait until everyone was aboard ship so that there was not the possibility of a slip
of the lip as to where the men were headed (00:24:40:00)
o When the men were briefed aboard ship, Link put two and two together and
remembered the drawing of a pork-chop shaped island in the Honolulu newspaper
(00:25:00:00)
The men spent sixty days aboard ship and the trip was painful because they had nothing
to do; Link still has a picture a picture of the APA (Amphibious Personnel Assault), the
U.S.S. Lubbock, that the men sailed on (00:25:19:00)
o APAs were troopships built by Henry Kaiser’s shipyards in Washington state
(00:26:03:00)
o There were dozens of the APAs that carried enough men for three Marine
divisions for the assault on Iwo Jima (00:26:20:00)
At the time, the 4th Marine Division was in the Marianas, having participated in that
campaign; Link does not know where the 3rd Marine Division was and his convoy
consisted mostly of the 5th Marine Division (00:26:31:00)
o The ships in Link’s convoy rendezvoused in the middle of the ocean and while
waiting for some ships to catch up with the main convoy, the ships sat in the
middle of the ocean with a clear blue sky and a clear blue ocean (00:26:48:00)
During the journey, the captain of the Lubbock was outstanding; on the first day the men
aboard the ship and headed out to sea, the captain said that he understood how difficult
the journey would be and the importance of a shower to the men, so from four o’clock
until five o’clock before dinner, the men would be allowed to take showers (00:27:04:00)
o Life on the ship was still a boring existence; the men would get up every day and
go topside and sit on the hot deck in the hot sun and Link would like a dollar for
every game of pinochle the men played (00:27:51:00)
o The men were packed into the hold of the Lubbock for night, which was very
uncomfortable for them (00:28:12:00)
o The men got close to the international date line but they never crossed it, although
some other men did (00:28:37:00)
o While the ships were sitting in the middle of the ocean waiting for the slower
ships to catch up, the captain said that if any of the men would like to go
swimming, he would put some boats down with machine gunners in case any
sharks showed up (00:28:41:00)
Just to break the monotony, some of the men went for a swim; it was quite
a dive from the top of the railing of a troop carrier to the ocean but Link
did it anyway, partly to prove something to himself (00:29:04:00)
He can still picture the convoy once the other ships caught up; there were two columns of
APAs with destroyers, destroyer escorts, and cruisers on the outside providing some
protection (00:29:40:00)
o The convoy headed to Saipan, where the convoy rendezvoused again before
heading to Iwo Jima (00:30:00:00)
o The men knew that there had been quite a battle for Guam, Saipan, and Tinian in
the Marshall [Mariana] Islands (00:30:17:00)
�
Link did not have any inclination about what he was about to get into; some of the men
who had been in other engagements did but the men who were young and naïve had no
idea what awaited them (00:30:38:00)
o The platoon had one sergeant who had fought on Tarawa, but he was rather quiet
and he did not go into much detail about his experiences (00:30:58:00)
o Other men in the unit had been with the Marine paratroopers at Bougainville and
when the Marines disbanded the paratroopers, they assigned a bunch of the exparatroopers to Link’s regiment; these men too had combat experience but they
never talk about it much (00:31:11:00)
o The men were young, eager, enthusiastic and probably a bit foolish and they did
not know what awaited them (00:31:34:00)
The men were not permitted off-ship at Saipan; the ships laid anchor in the harbor and
waited for the convoy to organize (00:31:46:00)
After staying at Saipan, the convoy sailed for Iwo Jima, which itself was not a long trip,
and they arrived at the island in the early morning (00:32:19:00)
o The men awoke to the “darndest” bombardment they had ever seen; the Navy had
been pounding Iwo Jima for days not only with airplanes but battleships and
cruisers (00:32:38:00)
o There was a non-stop bombardment for seventy-two hours before the actual
invasion, but the pre-invasion bombardment had been going on for seventy-two
days (00:33:02:00)
When the men woke up in the morning and went topside for breakfast, they stopped at
the railing to watch the bombardment, which was unbelievable to see because the whole
island was shrouded in smoke from the rocket launchers and the ships (00:33:15:00)
o This was one of the reasons that some people came to the conclusion that the
battle was going to be a cakewalk; there was no Japanese activity visible on the
island (00:33:55:00)
o There was no return fire from the Japanese and Link believes that this was part
the strategy of the commanding Japanese officer, Kuribayashi (00:34:08:00)
Kuribayashi was personally selected by the Emperor for the defense of
Iwo Jima; he was highly regarded general in the Japanese Army and he
spent his time at the island fortifying it and digging an extensive network
of tunnels that ran under the entire island (00:34:25:00)
The Japanese could walk around the entire island without ever coming
above ground, so all they did was sit tight and let the Americans bombard
the island (00:34:46:00)
When the Americans saw no activity on the island, they assumed that
everyone was dead (00:34:58:00)
o There is nothing in civilian life that he can describe the sound to; the noise, the
smoke, the flames, it was just awesome to witness that display of firepower
(00:35:20:00)
The U.S.S. Nevada, which had been damaged at Pearl Harbor and
repaired, was at Iwo Jima and watching the sixteen [fourteen] inch guns
fire was impressive (00:35:50:00)
Meanwhile, airplanes dropped bomb after bomb after bomb (00:36:04:00)
�
o After watching the bombardment, the men went down to breakfast, which was
quite an unusual experience because all the men were tight; although some men
tried to make light of the situation, there was more nervous laughter than genuine
laughter and most of the men did not talk at all (00:36:25:00)
The breakfast was the best meal the men had had in the Marines; they had
steak and eggs and mashed potatoes and one of the men in line turned to
the man behind him and said that it looked like they were fattening the
men up for the kill (00:36:53:00)
The man standing behind punched the man who made the
comment because the man who threw the punch was that wound
up (00:37:06:00)
The men realized that this was it and all the “snooping and pooping” they had done was
play stuff compared to what they now had to do; however, they still did not fully
appreciate what was in store for them (00:37:34:00)
The anxiety level kept growing and growing and after breakfast, the men went topside
again to watch more of the bombardment then below to get their gear (00:37:52:00)
o Every man had a pack and Link had his B.A.R. and once everyone had their gear,
they went over to the rail, down the nets and into the Higgins boats (00:38:07:00)
o The swells would raise and lower the boats and the men had to time themselves so
that when they let go of the rope, they did not have to fall too far to the bottom of
the Higgins boat (00:38:21:00)
o Link let go at what he thought was the right time but the Higgins boat fell about
eight feet and when he hit the deck with all his gear on, he thought his war was
over right there (00:38:33:00)
As well, all the other men were pilling on top of him and he had a hell of a
time before he got out from underneath the other men and got himself
organized (00:38:48:00)
o There was about forty or fifty men in each Higgins boat, probably Link’s whole
platoon (00:39:07:00)
The men had one session with their lieutenant prior to the invasion, when the lieutenant
told them what their mission was, but did not give a lot of specific instructions as to what
to do; the men were to just follow their platoon lieutenant and platoon sergeant, as well as
the squad leaders (00:39:40:00)
After launching, Link’s Higgins boat rendezvoused with other Higgins boats that
constituted the second wave of the invasion (00:40:22:00)
Link and his unit landed at Red Beach, the beach closest to Mount Suribachi, and their
main objective was to cut the island in half at that point, although the island was only
about seven hundred and fifty yards wide at that location (00:40:28:00)
o The island was terraced; there were three terraces that went up one side to the
crest and then three terraces that went down the other side to the ocean
(00:40:43:00)
o The men were expected to cut the island in half and then swing left for the assault
on Mount Suribachi itself (00:40:57:00)
They were supposed to secure Suribachi by the end of the first day; the
famous flag-raising was not until the fifth day (00:41:06:00)
�
As the Higgins boats rendezvoused for the second wave, the bombardment of the island
continued, which was a fireworks display unlike anything Link had ever seen
(00:41:27:00)
o As the troops started to land, the Navy lifted the bombardment of the beaches and
concentrated more on bombarding Suribachi and the area to the north of the
landing beaches (00:41:59:00)
The men eventually landed on the beach, although the beach was not a beach in the
traditional sense because instead of decline into the ocean, it dropped off into a cliff
(00:42:26:00)
o When the ramp on the Higgins boat went, sometimes it got pulled off the beach
and some of the men, weighed down by their equipment, drowned; there was no
way that they could get unbundled and they sank like rocks (00:42:45:00)
The men’s first objective once they landed was to run up the beach and flop down, trying
to figure out where they were and who they were going to follow and where their platoon
and squad leaders were (00:43:10:00)
The shooting started about the time that Link landed on the beach because the strategy of
Japanese defenders was to let the beaches get congested with men and equipment before
opening fire; General Kuribayashi told his people to just hold their fire, an action
contrary to what the Japanese had done previously (00:43:32:00)
o The Japanese let the beaches fill up, which was a great strategy, and the Japanese
return-fire was far more effective because the beach was so congested with men
and equipment (00:44:01:00)
o Another thing that the Japanese had going for them was that they had to whole
island on a grid and they had huge mortars in Mount Suribachi mounted on
railroad tracks which they would roll out from behind doors to bombard the
beaches (00:44:17:00)
The mortars were about the size of a fifty-five gallon drum and the
Japanese could get about six rounds out of it before they burned up the
tube (00:44:40:00)
The men on the beach could watch the mortar rounds tumbling through the
air and when one round landed, the ground shock (00:44:52:00)
o About the only place that the men had to hide in were the craters that the sixteen
millimeter shells from the battleships created (00:45:04:00)
Digging foxholes was difficult because the soft volcanic sand would just
cave in, but the burst of the larger rounds created a crater (00:45:15:00)
As well, there was no vegetation on the island, particularly on the south
end where Link and his unit had landed (00:45:33:00)
o The men would look for a crater and they got pretty selfish with the craters
because the craters became so crowded, that the men in the craters told men on
the outside to find their own holes, because they feared that their next visitor
would be a mortar round (00:45:39:00)
The Japanese could sit up on Suribachi and watch what was happening
below and if they saw a dozen men in a bomb crater, they sent them a
mortar round (00:46:03:00)
�
While attacking the terraces, Link met one man who was in the initial assault wave and
could only find seven men from his company; all the others were either dead or wounded
(00:46:26:00)
o The Japanese would wait until the Marines reached the third terrace before they
opened fire (00:43:40:00)
o Link told the man that he might as well join up with Link and his unit, although
Link still did not know where his squad leader was because the entire situation
was total chaos to get organize (00:46:54:00)
When Link got off the Higgins boat, he flopped down next to a man named Stan
Wellman, but Wellman was already dead; a sniper had already gotten him and he never
saw any action apart from flopping down behind a mound of volcanic ash (00:47:14:00)
The men did not see any enemy after the initial landing and eventually, their company
sort of grouped together (00:48:23:00)
In another bit of clever strategy, the Japanese had buried fifty-five gallon oil drums like a
spider-trap and they placed a single soldier in the drum with a lid; all the soldier had to do
was barely lift the lid and look out to see what was happening (00:48:311:00)
o The real first serious encounter that Link’s company had was with a couple of
these traps who were picking men off as the company advanced in a line
(00:49:02:00)
o Eventually, the captain called for a Browning Automatic rifleman to put the traps
out of commission (00:49:13:00)
The Japanese bunkers and pillboxes were so well-concealed that the Marines did not
know they were there until the Japanese started shooting (00:49:25:00)
After Link’s company got organized, they started to move forward, although it still
remained pretty much every man for himself under the circumstances (00:49:54:00)
o The men grouped themselves together into small groups and moved towards the
base of Mount Suribachi (00:50:05:00)
o By now, there was a sense of direction and the men had a sergeant who was
outstanding in his leadership (00:50:14:00)
Eventually, tanks landed on the beach, although they had a difficult time
moving in the volcanic sand to get traction, and this sergeant was walking
behind a tank, talking with the crew and directing their fire (00:50:30:00)
Link had never seen such an exhibition of command presence or bravery
in his life; the sergeant “made John Wayne look like a girl scout”
(00:50:53:00)
The sergeant earned a field commission because they were losing so many
officers; at some points, they had corporals and PFCs directing activities
because the casualty rate was so high (00:51:10:00)
Link had reached the base of Mount Suribachi when he was wounded (00:51:56:00)
The night before he was wounded, Link and another man shared a bomb crater for
protection (00:52:01:00)
o The men had to be concerned because the Japanese soldiers were ferocious
fighters and they were great at night infiltration; many Marines went to sleep and
never saw the sun rise the next morning because the Japanese had infiltrated the
camp (00:52:18:00)
�
o Japanese soldiers were good at slithering along the ground and dropping into
bomb craters; if the men made the mistake of falling asleep, then their throats
were cut (00:52:48:00)
o The strain of standing guard and keeping his eyes open while the other man in the
crater slept was difficult on Link (00:53:05:00)
o Periodically, someone would send up flairs on a regular sequence from the naval
ships to illuminate the area and the Marines tried to be alert enough that the flair
would catch any shadows or movement, which was also straining (00:53:25:00)
On the day that Link was wounded, when they woke in the morning, the Marines noticed
a pillbox in front of them that they had not noticed the night before; it had been so well
concealed (00:54:07:00)
o The Marines were exchanging fire with the pillbox and in front and to the left of
Link was a knocked out anti-aircraft gun (00:54:23:00)
o To defend the gun, someone had filled fifty-five gallon drums with volcanic ash
and stacked them two high around the gun and pilled ash along the side
(00:54:37:00)
o At the entrance to the anti-aircraft position was a mound of dirt to protect the
entrance and Link ran over to the mound and as he stuck his head around the
corner to decide his next move, two men from the Third platoon piled in behind
him (00:55:00:00)
o Link instinctively pulled his head back to see who it was and in that split second,
one of the Japanese machine gunners in the pillbox fired; had Link not moved his
head, the bullets would have torn his head off (00:55:44:00)
o The men that piled in behind him uttered colorful words about how close the shots
were and the rest of the bullets hit the fifty-five gallon drums (00:56:07:00)
o By this time, Link had started to get use to what they were up against and he lost a
little bit of the fear and anxiety, although not all of it; he did not dwell on what
happened (00:56:24:00)
o Link eventually moved out for the assault on the pillbox and the Japanese loved to
pick-off machine gunners and Browning Automatic riflemen because of the
firepower they represented (00:56:46:00)
o A man came from behind the pillbox and threw a hand grenade at Link; some of
the shrapnel caught him and the Japanese soldier made the mistake of standing
there to admire his work (00:57:09:00)
As the Japanese soldier stood there, the bazooka man in the platoon laid a
bazooka round right in the soldier’s midsection (00:57:27:00)
Link was bleeding profusely because of a facial wound and he turned around and went
back, looking for the corpsman; he and the corpsman met in a bomb crater and the
corpsman gave him a shot of morphine and tried to patch-up the wound, which he could
not (00:57:46:00)
o The wound was still bleeding badly, so the corpsman gave Link a wad of gauze,
told him to hold it tight to his face and head back to the hospital on the beach
(00:58:16:00)
o As it turned out, the hospital was nothing more than a bomb crater and the doctor
had a wooden box with medical supplies (00:58:26:00)
�
o The doctor could not stop the bleeding completely either because he did not have
the facilities or equipment to do the job properly (00:58:36:00)
o He told Link to hold on to a special bandage because a wound on the inside of the
mouth would bleed quite profusely (00:58:52:00)
o The doctor told Link to go down to the beach and hitch a ride on a Higgins boat
out to the hospital ship, where they could better help him (00:59:05:00)
Link went back to the beach, which was a grim scene, with Marines in body-bags waiting
to be buried at sea and all the mangled equipment (00:59:18:00)
o He eventually caught a ride on a Higgins boat, went to the hospital ship and
waited his turn while they took the more seriously wounded first (00:59:38:00)
o After he had cleaned up and examined the would, a doctor told Link that they
thought the shrapnel was imbedded in his jaw bone; the shrapnel had shattered the
roots of one of his molars, so it was like having the feeling before a root canal
(00:59:47:00)
o The doctor could not figure out why Link was having such a pain sensation,
although he told Link that he was a lucky Marine because if the shrapnel piece in
his jaw had been a little higher, he would have lost an eye and if the piece had
been a little bit lower, it would have severed his carotid artery and he would have
been in a body bag on the beach (01:00:09:00)
o After Link received treatment, he went below and passed out; he got aboard ship
and was examined in late morning and he did not wake up until sometime that
evening (01:00:42:00)
While they were there, a pocket [escort] carrier, the U.S.S. Bismarck Sea, was sunk by a
kamikaze pilot at the loss of several hundred sailors and Link’s hospital ship set sail for
the island of Guam because there was a hospital on the island (01:01:03:00)
o As it turned out, the hospital was nothing but a bunch of tents out in the middle of
the jungle and the wounded were kept there for a while (01:01:32:00)
o Link caught the last plane from the island, which was his first plane ride, back to
Pearl Harbor; he left Guam at one o’clock in the morning and they stopped at one
island for breakfast and refueling then at another island for dinner and refueling
before arriving at Pearl Harbor at one o’clock in the morning (01:01:55:00)
He thinks about all the men that died in the engagements in World War II and he cannot
help but wonder, “why him?”; why was he so blessed to have survived? (01:02:42:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LinkB
Title
A name given to the resource
Link, Bernie (Interview outline and video), 2005
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Link, Bernie
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie Link was born in Detroit, Michigan in 1925. Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, his older brother enlisted in the Marine Corps and following his graduation in 1943, Link attempted to follow. Apart gaining an enlistment in the Marines, Link went through basic training in San Diego and advanced training at Camp Pendleton, California. Following his training, the Marines assigned Link to the 5th Marine Division. He took part in the assault on the Japanese held island of Iwo Jima and received a facial wound at the base of Mount Suribachi on the island.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Michigan Military Preservation Society (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2005-06-27
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2695d7eae9c2d8cc6cd1f1c7e84753b8.mp4
56dd31ca8cbcca6f8a5419f900184687
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b3157961e9b404e24e496a97b600caf.pdf
d219a8ad9926bad48a50c9af4e367167
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Jay Lindquist
Cold War/Vietnam War
1 hour 29 minutes 3 seconds
(00:00:12) Early Life
-Born in Chicago on November 15, 1934
-His father was Harold Lindquist and his mother was Mildred Lindquist
-Went to school in Chicago
-Except for one year of high school
-He had been born on the south side of Chicago but grew up on the north side
-Family moved to the north side in 1941
-Graduated from Lakeview High School in 1952
(00:02:35) Joining the Naval Academy
-At the end of his senior year of high school he wasn’t sure where to go for college
-A senator was offering an appointment test for one of the military academies
-The summer after graduating he took the test
-Passed it with flying colors
-Given the choice of going to West Point or Annapolis Naval Academy
-Chose the Naval Academy
-Went to the Illinois Institute of Technology for a few classes to prepare him for the academy
-Mostly economics and algebra courses
-Took an academic examination for the Navy and passed that
-Went to Great Lakes Naval Station in Chicago for the Navy physical
-Received his orders to report to the Naval Academy
-Had to be there on June 29, 1953
(00:05:54) Arrival at the Naval Academy
-Flew from Chicago to Washington DC and from Washington DC to Baltimore, Maryland
-Arrived at the academy at 2 AM
-Given a bed and instructions for the next day
-His class started off with 1100 cadets
-By the time graduation rolled around they had lost 300
-Sworn into the Navy as a midshipman on June 29, 1953
(00:07:25) Naval Academy-First Year
-Went into the first year summer known as “plebe” summer
-Focus was on assimilation into the Navy
-Given a book that covered the history, language, protocol, and customs of the Navy
-Taught by third year students and company officers
-During the official first year he had twenty hours of class credit per semester
-Expected to be involved in athletic and/or extracurricular groups
-Stressed academic and military discipline
-Integration into military living
-Adjusted to life at the academy pretty well
-He was self-disciplined so the change wasn’t too difficult
�(00:11:05) Naval Academy-First Cruise
-Went on his first cruise in summer of 1954 aboard the battleship USS New Jersey
-Went across the Atlantic Ocean and stopped in Vigo, Spain
-Sailed up to France and visited the Normandy Beaches and Cherbourg
-Also given the chance to take a train into Paris
-Sailed to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba for artillery training
-Cruise lasted sixty days
(00:13:02) Naval Academy-Second Year
-Upon returning from the cruise he was promoted to 3rd class midshipman
-Academic load was the same during the second year
-Focus now was on engineering, physics, chemistry, and advanced mathematics
-Had to choose a foreign language to specialize in
-He chose Russian
-Taught how to properly coordinate and fire naval artillery
-During his second year he and the other cadets were allowed to Saturdays and Sundays off
(00:14:33) Naval Academy-Second Cruise
-In the summer of 1955 he went aboard the aircraft carrier the USS Valley Forge
-Cruise was to teach the cadets about naval aviation
-Sailed to Halifax, Nova Scotia
-Sailed down to Little Beach, Virginia and coordinated a training mission with the Marines
-Carried out an amphibious landing there
(00:15:30) Naval Academy-Third Year
-Returned from the cruise and was made a 2nd class midshipman
-Given far more responsibility
-Focus was on flying
-Trained with the N3N “Yellow Peril” pontoon aircraft
-Taught how to take off, land, and do basic flying
-Also taught more about Marine amphibious operations and the Navy’s involvement with that
(00:17:05) Naval Academy-Third Cruise
-Third cruise was aboard the destroyer the USS Perry in the summer of 1956
-Stayed in the bow with the chief petty officers
-Taught how to use a sextant and navigate by way of the stars
-Pulled into Portsmouth, England and saw Lord Nelson’s HMS Victory there
-Also given the chance to visit London while they were there
-From England sailed over to Stockholm, Sweden before sailing home
(00:18:03) Air Force-Flight Training
-Senior year decided that the branch of service he would go into would be the Air Force
-Wanted to go into pilot training
-During his senior year he was part of Honor Colors Company (esteemed position)
-In September 1957 he reported to Graham Air Base, Florida for primary flight training
-First aircraft he flew there was the T34 Mentor
-In Class of 59B
-Graduated to the T28
-Early WWII fighter plane
-Excellent aircraft for acrobatic maneuvers
�(00:21:24) Air Force-Basic Training
-In early 1958 (January/February) he was sent to Webb Air Force Base, Texas for basic training
-Flew the T33A
-A modified F80 fighter jet from the Korean War
-Remembers his first solo flight aboard the T33A
-Fifteen minutes into the flight his reserve fuel tanks stopped working
-Had to drop the reserve tanks so that he could safely land
-On September 8, 1958 he received his wings
(00:24:24) Air Force Assignments-Moody Air Force Base
-Because of his class standing he was given the choice of what type of pilot he wanted to be
-Fighter, bomber, or transportation
-Chose to be a fighter pilot specifically working with all-weather interceptors
-Sent to Moody Air Force Base, Georgia later in 1958
-Did a lot of ground training there
-Taught how to fly on instruments and instruments alone
-Part of being prepared to fly in any and all forms of weather
-First time flying in a flight simulator was at Moody
-Had to fly the F86 fighter jet by yourself
-Instructor flew as your wing man
-Loved the feeling of turning on the afterburner as he took off
-People died during training missions
-Malfunctions and attempting to do maneuvers they weren’t prepared to pull off yet
-Completed fighter pilot training in 1959 but was kept on as an instructor until 1961
-Remembers losing an engine during a training mission
-Worked with primitive guided missile systems
-Remembers scrambling a few times in the middle of the might
-Part of being prepared in the event of needing to intercept enemy aircraft
(00:34:49) Air Force Assignments-University of Michigan
-In 1961 he was sent to the University of Michigan to study astronautics
-During his time at U of M he would go out flying on his own to keep from getting rusty
-Class was made up of only about twelve people
-Mostly West Point graduates
-Studied with the man who designed the command module for the Apollo rockets
-Completed the program in 1963
(00:36:01) Air Force Assignments-Air Force Rocket Propulsion Lab
-After U of M he was sent to the Air Force Rocket Propulsion Lab
-Part of Edwards Air Force Base in California
-Promoted to the rank of captain
-Given the position of Test Rocket Officer
-In charge of engineers that were developing rocket propellants for weapons systems
-Worked in conjunction with Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio
-Remembers witnessing the classified SR71 Blackbird taking off
(00:38:33) Volunteering for Vietnam
-In 1964 he volunteered to go to Vietnam
-Knew that it was a police action
�-Knew that JFK had sent over military advisors
-Hoped to be sent over to fly fighter jets against the North Vietnamese
-In 1965 during the troop surge he was told he would be flying the O1 Birddog
-Propeller driven, primitive, observation plane
-Disappointing assignment
-Wound up being a blessing in disguise
-Flying the O1 truly taught him how to fly
(00:42:25) SERE Training and Other Pre-Vietnam Training
-Went through SERE training at Fairchild Air Force Base in Spokane, Washington
-Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape training
-Having been an Eagle Scout it wasn’t hard for him to live in the wild
-Worked in pairs in the wilderness
-Moved at night and had to hide during the day
-His partner wasn’t doing so well, and much to his frustration, was swapped out
-Considered the move “unrealistic”
-At the end of field training got placed in solitary confinement
-Went through interrogation, and mild torture training (sleep deprivation, confinement)
-Fared that well
-Placed in a mock prisoner of war camp
-Had to work together with the other “prisoners” to escape from the camp
-Sent to Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama after SERE
-Taught air combat tactics in only twenty four hours of flight time
-After Maxwell AFB he was sent to Washington DC for counter-insurgency training
-Also taught about Vietnamese language, culture, and history
(00:50:42) Deployment to Vietnam
-Sent to Vietnam on November 9, 1965
-Flew out of Travis Air Force Base, California
-Landed in Tan Son Nhut Air Base near Saigon
-Remembers the unfathomable humidity
-Shocked by the filth and poverty present
-Spent a night in a hotel in Saigon
-The next day he hitched a ride on a C-130 to a base north of Hue near the demilitarized zone
-Had to jump off the moving plane so it could avoid getting targeted by artillery
-From Hue he hitched another ride to his final destination of Da Nang
(00:53:56) Duties in Vietnam
-Reported to the 110th Vietnamese Liaison Squadron
-His position was to be part of Air Force Advisory Team 7
-Detachment 10 of 1131st Special Activities Squadron
-His job was to train Vietnamese instructors on how to train Vietnamese pilots
-He was also responsible for developing tactics and testing aircraft
-He also flew recon, convoy escort, artillery observation, and communication combat missions
-Flew transportation missions to get high ranking officers across the country
-Had to fly low and memorize the territory that he was flying in as well as be unpredictable
-If you flew the same way all the time you became an easy target
-Had to fly over rural and jungle areas to avoid the roads
-Flew with a Vietnamese observer that helped him to mark areas for artillery and for air strikes
�-Eventually had his plane modified so he could shoot smoke rockets to mark targets
-Always supported South Vietnamese ground forces
-Never had any experience with supporting U.S. ground troops
-Incredibly difficult to fly into royal palace in the city of Hue
-Had to clear a twelve foot high wall on landing and on takeoff
(01:02:16) Downtime in Vietnam and Relationship with Other Soldiers
-He sang and played guitar in the NCO and officers’ clubs to raise money for orphans
-Taught the wives of the Vietnamese officers some English
-Decided that he wanted to go to medical school
-Taught himself how to prepare for the MCAT
-Took the MCAT in Manila, Philippines
-Had a lot of respect for the ground troops and what they had to deal with
-Spent some R&R in Bangkok and Hong Kong
-Vietnamese pilots were outstanding at what they did
-Vietnamese observers also did their job exceptionally well
(01:06:00) Distinguished Flying Cross and Other Commendations
-During his time in Vietnam he earned the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Bronze Star
-He earned the Distinguished Flying Cross during a close air support mission
-Vietnamese unit was surrounded by the enemy
-He stuck around and continued to mark targets for them until reinforcements arrived to
evacuate them
-Deliberately put himself in harm’s way to insure the safety of the ground troops
-Simply felt that he was doing his job
(01:08:18) Coming Home Pt. 1
-Despite some of the harassment he faced for his veteran status he is glad that he served
-He returned home in 1966
-Did face discrimination upon coming home
(01:09:01) Other Details about Vietnam
-Lived in a hotel in Da Nang
-Got viciously, dangerously ill when he first arrived in Vietnam
-Remembers witnessing an attempted coup in 1966
-Close enough to the action to hear tanks moving in the street and gunfire
-Didn’t have any interaction with the greater civilian populace
-Only ever talked to officers’ wives
-Had a Vietnamese housekeeper whom he never saw
-Remembers losing an engine during a mission due to fuel problems
-Thought that he would have to ditch the plane
-During R&R called his mom in Hong Kong
-She knew that something traumatic had happened to him and was bothering him
-Was, and still is, amazed over the fact that she was able to know that
(01:13:05) Coming Home Pt. 2
-Flew out of Tan Son Nhut Air Base back to the United States
-Feels that the quick return time is why so many Vietnam vets have psychological baggage
-Didn’t have a chance to decompress before going back to civilian life
(01:14:06) Air Defense Weapons Center and Leaving the Air Force
-Upon returning he was sent to the Air Defense Weapons Center, Tyndall Air Force Base Florida
�-He was placed in charge of a team of aeronautic and astronautic engineers
-They were developing new missile systems
-Working on canopy designs for the F101 and F106
-Designing diagnostic systems for jets
-Precursor to what every car has now (warning lights/messages)
-While there he also worked as a Tow pilot over the Gulf of Mexico
-Towed a target behind an aircraft
-Allowed pilots to target practice on a flying, moving target
-While there began to learn to fly the F101B
-One of the fighter bombers that carried the Genie air-air nuclear rocket
-Didn’t complete the combat readiness program for it though
-No longer wanted to be in the Air Force due to not being allowed to go back to college
-Gave up his officer commission and resigned
(01:19:30) University of Michigan and Air National Guard
-Returned to the University of Michigan to get his master’s degree in business administration
-While there joined the Michigan Air National Guard out of Detroit
-Signed on as a major
-Given a new commission
-Flew photo reconnaissance missions in the F101 Voodoo
-Completed the master’s program and was accepted into the PhD program
-Stopped flying in 1973 and was given command of an aircraft maintenance squadron
-Had to overhaul and make the squadron more efficient and disciplined
-By the time he was done with them the squadron had turned itself around
-Made it to the rank of lieutenant colonel
-Almost made it to the rank of colonel
-Position was given to another officer who only had eighteen months left
-Part of some of the shady politics that he didn’t appreciate
-Resigned from the Air National Guard after that
(01:26:04) Life after Air Force and Reflections on Service
-Went to Western Michigan University and took a job there
-Became a professor of marketing there
-Felt that all in all the Air Force was a good career
-He feels that, and is glad that, he contributed to the country and to the war effort
-Feels now that there was a lot of misrepresentation of Vietnam
-Both in the government and in the media
-Still impressed by the skill of the Vietnamese pilots
Starting at 23:40 Jay’s audio quality starts to deteriorate. It’s not terrible, but the best way
I can think to describe how it sounds is “watery” or like there is an echo. You can still hear
what he’s saying, but you have to turn up the volume and listen a little more attentively. It
goes back to normal at 40:11
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LindquistJ1596V
Title
A name given to the resource
Lindquist, Jay (Interview outline and video), 2014
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lindquist, Jay
Description
An account of the resource
Jay Lindquist was born in 1934 in Chicago, Illinois, and graduated from high school there in 1952. He attended the Naval Academy and served on several ships before transferring to the Air Force in 1957. He trained as a fighter pilot served as a flight instructor, and then trained to work with rocket systems before volunteering for duty in Vietnam. He served there between 1965 and 1966 training Vietnamese pilots and flying observation aircraft out of Da Nang with the 110th Vietnamese Liaison Squadron, and won the Distinguished Flying Cross on one of his missions.. He returned home in 1966 and worked at the Air Defense Weapons Center in Florida until he resigned from the Air Force to pursue a business degree at the University of Michigan during which time he served with the Michigan Air National Guard until he resigned from there as a lieutenant colonel and took a job at Western Michigan University as a marketing professor.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Air Force
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-02-13
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b2f1b4b3925d2318af75c368f27ed504.mp4
661a475c1c6e54fa26cdbcd9b9c0b2c4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8939e6444efa1d774d3c2d01e52499a.pdf
3baeb401c1b2d1139465cae95d6df464
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Paul Lindner
(56:40)
(00:20) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
Paul was born in Indiana in the early 1920s
His father worked in tool and die for Pullman Manufacturing Company
His family was a little low on money during the Depression but they came out OK in the
end
Paul enlisted in the Navy on his 17th birthday and reported for active duty on July 3, 1941
Paul had enlisted because he felt that the US would be involved in the war soon
(02:00) Training
•
•
•
•
•
•
Paul reported in Chicago at Great Lakes Naval Station
They were living in hammocks during boot camp at Camp Barry in Chicago
They had spent much time marching and learning Naval terminology for about 7 weeks
Paul was then sent to Jacksonville Naval Air Station in Florida
It was on the water, but a very rustic area
He later signed up for classes to be a mechanic working on motor torpedo boats
(05:55) Mechanic Training
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Paul was sent to Boston and then to Rhode Island
He began working on PT boats and went to torpedo school
They worked on patrol making torpedo runs to Martha’s Vineyard and other islands
He described a PT boat as a “plywood coffin” with 3-12 cylinder Packard engines
It carried torpedoes, twin 50-calibur guns, smoke generators and depth charges
There was usually about 12 men working on the boat
They trained in Rhode Island for 6 weeks
(10:30) Training in New York
•
•
•
•
•
•
Paul was sent to Brooklyn Navy yard to work in engineering
He was working in the BG Spark Plug Factory in New York
He was later sent to Ionia Ammunition Island working on boat repairs
The men were given cold weather gear and all loaded up on large boats to leave from
New York
They thought they were going to the North Atlantic, but went through the Panama Canal
to Taboga Island
They also stayed in Panama for a while working on boat generators
(15:25) Australia
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
They headed into the Pacific and all the men were given Japanese hunting licenses
They also went through the initiation process of crossing the equator
They landed in Brisbane, Australia and had two weeks on liberty
Paul had an opportunity to go on a ride in a submarine and did not enjoy his experience
He also took a boat north and saw the Great Barrier Reef
Paul traveled along much of the coast of Australia, at which time was pretty old
fashioned compared to towns on the coast in America
He visited Horne Island and went through the Torres Straits
Most of the Americans got along well with the Australian civilians, but the Australian
servicemen did not like them because they thought they were overpaid and attracting all
the Australian women
(21:45) New Guinea
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
They left Australia and headed to Milne Bay, which is on the southeast end of New
Guinea
The men set up base while most of the Japanese were starting to push North
The base was surrounded by jungle and many wild pigs
Paul began working on a boat patrolling along the eastern coast of New Guinea
They were working with Australian coast watchers at night
Occasionally they caught Japanese trucks trying to make their way up the coast
Whenever Japanese shot at them at night, they often missed because they always aimed
too high
(26:10) Buna
•
•
•
•
•
•
They left Milne Bay and tied up to a Japanese barge to refuel; the boats usually used
about 2,000 gallons of fuel a day
They spent much of the day on land in the jungle
After spending time in Buna they traveled to Kiriwina Island where there was a US
airbase and hospital
Paul continued to work on patrol boats at night and also helped transport men to different
islands
There was not much Japanese resistance while they were patrolling
Usually their only contact was because a Japanese boat would run into them because it
could not see them
(31:10) England
•
•
•
•
•
Paul had some time to go home on leave where he visited his family
His father was busy working long hours in a factory that was building tanks and 20 mm
mortars
Paul then took a train to New York and boarded an Army transport ship headed for
Liverpool
In England they went on a few patrols off the coast, looking for German E boats
They left Liverpool and went the Plymouth Bay where there was much war damage
�(36:30) France
•
•
•
•
•
•
From England Paul traveled to Cherbourg, France where the Germans had recently
surrendered
They found an old Germans barracks that looked like it had been very quickly vacated
The French told them that they were much happier living under the Germans than the
Americans
Once the fighting was over in Paris the men went back to England
Paul had leave to go back to the US during Christmas and then was told that he would be
heading back to the Pacific
He was sent to Shoemaker, CA, but discharged shortly later before even leaving for the
Pacific in 1945
(43:00) Discharged
•
•
•
•
•
•
After being discharged Paul moved to Michigan
His father had moved there from Indiana after buying about 500 acres on a lake
Paul began taking classes at Michigan State University and received his degree in
electronics
He also met his wife while attending college
After the Navy Paul continued spending time sailing, fishing and riding in speed boats
He had a wonderful time in the Navy and made many great friends
�r
"1
".
", ".
j
f' I. J- 1-f/,iJ4/4/(
t!r(5#&~A'/;
'7
I
I
h/f-4,vc.:::
•
Pt::4~'- A. V ~(.J£~
t o/(i? ,,-~
~. T If ;.J If' 5"
I'}/,," /r' i~/'T
t' t:
A V5 I'~ (J L....r ~
�sqUADRON COMMANDER..
�PAU L THOMAS LINDNER
U.S.NAVY wwn
JULY 3,1941-- TO --- OCTOBER 6,1941
FOUR YEARS THREE MONTHS AND FOUR DAYS INCLUDING ALL OF WWII
MILITARY SERVICE AS I REMEMBER IT=
ELEVEN DAYS AFTER MY SEVENTEENTH BIRTHDAY, I WAS SWORN IN TO
THE U.S.NAVY AT THE NAVAL RECEIVING STATION IN CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
ON JULY 3, 194 1. NOW AN APPRENTICE SEAMAN AT $21.00 PER MONTH A
BUS RIDE TO GRE AT LAKES NAVAL TRAINING STATION AT GRE AT LAKES ,
ILLINOIS.
OUR BOOT CAMP HOME TO BE WAS A WWI BARRACKS LOCATED IN CAMP '
BERRY. HERE WE ENTERED GLISTENING WOODEN FLOORS [DECKS] AND
OPEN AREA WITH PIPES WHICH WE LEARNED WERE TO LASH OUR
HAMMOCKS TO FOR BEDS . MEETING OUR LEADER, CHIEF YUHASE AND
NOW RECEIVE DOG TAGS, HAIR CUT S [HAD TO PAY FOR] HAMMOCKS
MATRES S, PILLOW, SEA BAG, DITTY BAG, DRE SS BLUE UNIFO RM, UNDRE SS
BLUES , WHITE UNIFORM S, UNDERWEAR, SOCKS AND SO FORTH FOR OUR
,.. ...... SOLE POSSESSIONS.
OUR FIRST NIGHT IN A HAMMOCK AND JULY FOURTH MORNING WE SORTA
MARCHED TO A MES S HALL ON THE MAIN SIDE. A METAL TRAY,
SPOONFULL OF BEANS AND TWO SPOONS OF CATSUP [NOW "RED LEAD"],
EGGS, SLAB OF ANCIENT TOAST AND COFFEE THAT COULD BE USED AS
PAINT REMOVER.
RETURNED TO THE BARRACKS AND NOW INTRODUCED TO THE "BLUE
JACKETS MANUAL" OUR NAVY BffiLE. INSTRUCTED ON ROLLING AND
TYING OUR CLOTHING TO KEEP IT IN THE SEA BAG UNWRINKLED, AND
HOW TO LAY OUT FOR INSPEC TION, OF WHICH WE SOON HAD MANY. NOW
LEARNING TO MARCH AS A UNIT AND ENTER INTO COMPETITION WITH
OTHER GROUPS.
SHOT S IN BOTH ARMS AND WE NOW DANCE WITH THE "JOHNSON BAR'.
THE GLISTENING DECKS REQUIRE STEEL WOOL OVER THE BAR AND A LOT
OF DANCING TO REMOVE THE WAX. THE STEEL WOOL REMOVED AND
NOW WAX AND POLISH. WE WERE INFORME D THAT THE EXERCISE EASED
THE PAIN OF THE SHOTS?
"
�H.
NOW MARCHING AS A UNIT, ABLE TO DO THE MANUAL OF ARMS WITH A
SPRINGFIELD 1903 AND PASSED THE RIFLE RANGE QUALIFICATIONS WE
NOW ARE READY TO MARCH TO THE MAIN SIDE PARADE GROUND AND
GRADUATION. A SEVEN DAY LEAVE SO HOME AND BACK IN CIVILIAN
CLOTHES FOR THE WEEK.
RETURN TO GREAT LAKES AND ANOTHER WWI BARRACKS ON THE MAIN
SIDE. NOW HAMMOCKS ARE HUNG MUCH HIGHER FOR WALKING
BENEATH. TESTS AND INFO ON AVAILABILITY OF SCHOOLS AND OR
SHIPS OR BASES . OPTED FOR AVIATION MACHINIST MATE SCHOOL AND
NOW A TRAIN TRIP SOUTH TO JACKSONVILLE NAVAL TRAINING STATION
IN JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA.
THE NEW NAVY WITH WOODEN BARRACKS AND DOUBLE DECKER BUNKS .
NOW THE HAMMOCK IS BENEATH THE MATTRESS AND A BIT MORE
COMFORTABLE. AS THE WAKE UP LIGHTS GO ON AND LOCAL RADIO
STATION GOES ON THE AIR WITH "A STRING OF PEARLS" WE HEAR THE
SONG THAT WILL BEGIN OUR DAYS WHILE IN JAX, EACH WEEK COVERS A
DIFFERENT PHASE OF THE AIRCRAFT WITH HANDS ON EXPERIENCE.
WEEKL Y TEST MUST RECEIVE A PASSING GRADE TO RATE LillERTY.
INSTRUCTORS REGALE US WITH THEIR WAR STORIES OF OUTWITTING THE
FEDS WHEN RUNNING BOOTLEG LIQUOR DURING PROHillITION. A BIT
AMAZING HOW SO MANY OF THEM SURVIVED. AS THIS IS PRE WWII OUR
AIRCRAFT ARE A LOT OF BIPLANES WITH FABRIC COVERS . WE LEARN TO
SEW THE FABRIC ON WINGS ETC. THEN TO A HANGER WITH A WALL
WATERF ALL. NO METAL OF ANY TYPE TO BE CARRIED IN AS THE
AIRPLANE DOPE IS VERY EXPLOSIVE. IT IS STORED IN A BLOCK HOUSE
-eUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIELD . WE NOW UNDERSTAND WHY LOCATIONS
ARE MARKED TO PLACE FEET WHEN GETTING INTO THE COCKPITS .
RADIAL ENGINES, CARBURATORS, INSTRUMENTS, WING ADJUSTMENTS
AND SHOT GUN STARTERS AND ALL OTHER AIRCRAFT ITEMS.
LillERTY WAS A BUS RIDE INTO JAX AND AT THE WATERFRONT I MET AN
OLD FISHERMAN ABOUT TO GO FISHING, INVITE AND OUT ON THE RIVER.
THE LIVE BAIT WAS LARGER THAN THE FISH I HAD CAUGHT BACK HOME .
FISH WERE BITING AND I CAUGHT MY FIRST TEN POUNDS PLUS BASS
WOW! ENJOYING A BREW AS I AM NOW A SEAMAN SECOND CLASS AND
$36.00 PER MONTH, I MET SOME PEOPLE FROM HOME . AN ARMY
SEARGEANT PASSING THRU JAX AND THE LADY BOOKKEEPER FOR THE
DOG TRACK. THE SARGE HAD BEEN A LIFE GUARD AT HOME TOWN POOL
AND THE LADY HAD ATTENDED SCHOOL WITH MY DAD. INVITED TO
MEET THE TRACK OWNER AND FAMILY PLUS THE PRE RACE OWNERS
BUFFET- LIVING IT UP
�THE JAPS HAVE BOMBED PEARL HARBOR AND WE ARE AT WAR. LOCAL
BASED PBYs ARE PATROLLING OUR ATLANTIC COAST AS GERMAN U
BOATS ARE NOW ON THE PROWL AND SINK1NG US SHIPS . GRADUATION
AND CHECK OUT THE BULLETIN BOARD FOR POSSIBLE FUTURE
ASSIGNMENT. ANEW NAVAL UNIT 'MOTOR TORPEDO BOATS ' IS SEEKING
MECHANICS FOR PACKARD ENGINES. SOUNDS INTERESTING SO APPLIED
IN THE MORNING AND WAS ON A TRAIN TO BOSTON, MASS. THAT
AFTERNOON.
CHECKED IN TO FARGO STREET NAVAL STATION AND SOON ON A BUS TO
MEL VILLE, RHODE ISLAND AND QUONSET HUTS BEING BUILT AS THE
BASE PREPARES. HERE WE HAD ON HAND TRAINING COVERING ALL
FACETS OF PT BOATS . TORPEDOES, GUNS, RADIO, NAVIGATION AND THE
ENGINES . CRUISES OUT ONTO THE OCEAN WITH PRACTICE TORPEDO
RUNS ON MARTHAS VINEYARD. GUNNERY FIRING AT SOCK TOWED
BEHIND AIRPLANE AND SO FORTH.
MORNING RUN ON THE BASE CINDER ROADS I MET OUR FUTURE
PRESIDENT KENNEDY- VERY FRIENDLY. LATER I WAS IN THE SAME
SQUADRON 6 IN NEW YORK BUT I WAS AWAITING THE FORMING OF
SQUADRON 7. LIBERTY HERE OFFERED NUMEROUS DIRECTIONS TO
TOWNS- FALL RIVER, MASS. , RHODE ISLAND AND THE OCEAN SHORELINE.
GRADUATION AND NOW A FIREMAN 3rd CLASS [NO PAY RAISE] RECEIVING
OVER $50.00 PER MONTH DUE TO OVERALL PAY SCALE RAISE . HALF OF
MY PAY GOES HOME FOR DAD TO BUY WAR BONDS . NOW A FIREMAN 181
CLASS AND A PAY RAISE . GRADUATION AND DEPART MELVILLE.
BUS TO BOSTON AND SHORT STAY AT FARGO BARRACKS WITH LIBERY TO
ENJC>Y THE SITES, BEANS AND BEER. TRAIN TO NY AND BUS TO
BROOKLYN NAVY YARD . CHECKED IN TO THE COMISSIONING DETAIL
LOCATED ON THE CONCRETE BARGE-"'WHEELING." NO BOATS AS YET SO
SHORT LEAVE HOME VIA TRAIN. RETURN AND BEGIN SHAKE DOWN OF
JUST RECEIVED BOATS .
LOCATED NEAR THE BATTLESHIP IOWA NOW BEING BUILT AND LEARNING
THE TRICKY RIVER CURRENTS UGH! NEW SKIPPERS NOW REALLY
EXERCISE MECHS AS NUMEROUS SHIFTS TO BRING BOAT TO DOCK. A
WAVE HITS AND LIFTS BOAT INTO PILING THUS WORK FOR CARPENTER
MATES TO PATCH. INSTALLING HEATERS ON BOATS THUS ASSUME OUR
NEXT BASE WILL BE COLD AREA. ISSUED A LOT OF HEAVY FOWL
WEATHER PLUS GEAR- WOOL UNDERWEAR AND SO FORTH.
THE CHIEF MASTER AT ARMS IN CHARGE OF THE WHEELING SAW MY
NAME AND ASKED IF MY DAD WAS A CARL. HE HAD SERVED UNDER MY
DAD IN WWI ABOARD THE USS LEVIATHON
�A MOTOR MACHINIST MATE SECOND CLASS AND A PAY RAISE PLUS BUSY
IN PREPARING FOR SQUADRON DEPARTURE. A WEEK IN DOWNTOWN NY
AT THE BG SPARK PLUG FACTORY TO LEARN FIELD REHAB FOR SPARK
PLUGS . TIME AT WALTER JONES ENGINE REPAIR OVER THE RIVER TO
FOLLOW UP ON HAVING AUXIALLIARY GENERATOR GEARS GROUND FOR
CLEARANCE. RUN A WIID..£ AND THE UNITS FROZE UP . DID NOT HAVE
TIME TO ALL DONE. JONES HAD TRAP DOORS AND DURING PROHIBITION
CHANGED ENGINES ETC. FOR BOOTLEGGERS SPEED BOATS.
A TRIP UPRIVER TO MARINE AMMUNITION DUMP AND PICKED UP AMMO
FOR THE BOATS 50 CALIBER AND 20 MILIMETERS PLUS SOME FOR SMALL
ARMS . TRIPS ABOUT NY FOR NEEDED TOOLS AND A TRIP TO FIFES
SHIPYARD FOR SOME WORK.
UNDER COMMAND OF LT COMMANMDER JOHN D . BUCKELEY [THE MEDAL
OF HONOR WINNER] OUR BOATS WERE LOADED ON TO WOOD CRADLES
THEN ONTO THE DECK OF A TANKER. SOUTH ALONG THE COAST TO THE
INLAND HARBOR AT WILLHELMSTEAD, CURACAO. LIBERTY HERE WAS A
BOAT RIDE TO TOWN AND AT NIGHT THE TOWN DIVIDED BY THE
WATERWAY, PULLED THE PONTOON TYPE BRIDGE THAT CONNECTED
SAME.
THE MILK AND ICE CREAM REQUIRED GETTING A TASTE FOR "GOATS
MILK." EVENING BEER ON THE VERANDA OF HOTEL VIEWING LOCAL
ACTIVITY WAS EXCELLENT PASTIME. CONTACTED A GENT THAT MY DAD
HAD MENTIONED HAVING ATTENDED PURDUE UNIVERSITY WITH. UPPER
JOB WITH DUTCH REFINERY AND VERY HOSPITABLE AT HIS CLUB .
NOW TO COLON, PANAMA AND OFF LOAD FOR TRIP THRU THE CANAL TO
' ~HE PACIFIC OCEAN AND THE ISLAND OF TOBAGO. DEEP CLEAR WATER
ON ISLAND THAT HAD BEEN HIGH CLASS ENTERTAINING PRE THE WAR.
TO THE NAVAL MACHINE SHOP ON THE CANAL AND MORE AUXIALLIARY
GENERATOR WORK. BACK TO THE ISLAND AND VIEWED MY FIRST
IGUANAS- NATIVES LIKED AND SAID THAT THEY TASTE LIKE CHICKEN?
SHAKE DOWN AND NOW WORKING AS A UNIT FOR PATROLS.
TO PANAMA, BACK IN CRADLES AND ONTO THE DECK OF TANKER. SOUTH
WITH GALA INITIATION CROSSING THE EQUATOR, SIGN LOG FOR OUR
SPONSOR- THE NEW YORK YACHT CLUB , ISSUED JAP HUNTING LICENSE
SIGNED BY OUR CAMMANDING OFFICER. WEST TO NOUMEA, NEW
CALEDONIA AND A SHORT ANCHORAGE THEN TO BRISBANE, AUSTRALIA
AND THE FARTHEST NORTH LOCATION OF A CRANE CAPABLE OF
REMOVING OUR BOATS FROM DECK OF THE TANKER.
TIED UP NEXT TO THE SUBMARINE TENDER THE USS FULTON. HAILED BY
A SAILOR ON THE FULTON AND INVITED ABOARD, WE HAD BEEN
CLASSMATES AT JAX AND HE OPTED FOR SUBS? AS A SUB WAS REPAIRED
AND SHAKE DOWN SHORT CRUISE INTO THE PACIFIC I WAS INVITED
ALONG. HAVING SUBMERGED AND RETURNED I DECIDED THAT SUBS
WERE NOT MY THING.
�se , . ....
LIBERTY IN BRISBANE WAS INTERESTING LEARNING THAT A BOTTLE OF
BEER IS AN IMPERIAL QUART. AUSTRALIAN SEREVICEMEN DISLIKED
YANKS AS WE RECEIVED HIGHER PAY AND THE AUSSIE LASSES
PREFERRED US SERVICEMEN. BOOMERANGS REALLY DO COME BACK.
PREPARING TO HEAD NORTH WE ARE CABLED TO THE US GUNBOAT
"TULSA." BETWEEN THE LAND AND THE GREAT BARRIER REEF WE NOW
HEADED NORTH. SET A SCHEDULE TO RUN ENGINE TO COOL REVERSE
GEARS AS THEY HEATED UP WITH PROP TURNING IN TOW .
A DANDY STORM AND ON TOP OF HIGH WAVES WE WERE LOOKING DOWN
ON THE GUNBOAT. CABLE SNAPPED, DROPPED OFF VIA QUICK RELEASE
AND STARTED ENGINES. CRUISED INTO THE GLADSTONE HARBOR TO
RIDE OUT THE STORM. LOCAL PUB RAPIDLY RAN OUT OF BEER. STORM
OVER WE ONCE AGAIN PROCEEDED NORTH IN TOW. SOME OF THE
ISLANDS OF THE REEF WERE INHABITED AND PEOPLE CAME OUT TO
WAVE. OUR TOWING SPEED WAS GOOD FOR FISHING AS WE TROLLED
SPOONS AND ENJOYED SOME FAIR CATCHES .
CAIRNS, AUSTRALIA AND AGAIN SET UP BASE. THIS TOWN REMINDED ME
OF AN OLD WESTERN MOVIE TOWN . BUSINESSES HAD A DROP WOOD
FRONT, INSTEAD OF WINDOW, AND WHEN OPEN THEY RAISED IT
COVERING THE WOOD SIDE WALK. NON COM CLUB WAS IN A HOUSE
BUILT ON STILTS AND A TRAP DOOR IN THE FLOOR PERMITTED REFUSE TO
BE SWEPT OUT.
SUGAR FARMERS WELCOMED OUR HUNTING KANGAROO AND THE
NATIVES APPRECIATED THE MEAT. AGAIN NORTH NOW TO THE TORRES
STRAITS AND THURSDAY ISLAND . THIS WAS HEADQUARTERES FORJAP
PEARL DIVING OPERATION. WE TOOK OVER HOTEL FOR BASE FORCE, SICK
BAY AND GALLEY PLUS MESS HALL. ALSO TOOK OVER A MARINE
WORKSHOP WITH A MARINE RAILWAY THAT WE UTILIZED TO PULL PT
BOATS UP FOR BOTTOM CLEANING ETC ..
AN ASSEMBLED SECTIONAL METAL BARGE WITH CHYRSLER MOTOR IN
ONE SECTION NOW FOR OUR USE. LARGE CUBIC BLOCKS OF CONCRETE
WERE CAST TO DROP IN STREAM FOR BOAT ANCHORAGES. WATER
FLOWED AT ABOUT EIGHT KNOTS AS IT WENT BETWEEN THE ISLANDS SO
TRICKY ANCHORAGES.
BOSUN AND I MADE THE FIRST TRIP OUT AND FOUND OURSELVES NOT
GOING FORWARD. CHECKED THE ENGINE AND :MISSING KEY CONNECTING
SHAFT TO ENGINE DRIVE. LUCKIL Y AN ALERT PT BOATER SAW OUR
PLIGHT AND THEY TOWED US TO THE DOCK FOR REPAIRS. NOW WE
SUCCEEDED TO PLACE THE ANCHORAGES OK.
PRINCE OF WALES ISLAND WAS UNINHABITED AND HAD ONCE BEEN A
:MINING PLACE FOR GOLD BUT TO COSTLY WHEN PRICE DROPPED. LEFT
HORSES THAT WENT WILD AND WE HUNTED WILD BOAR- [TUSKERS] THEN
GAVE MEAT TO NATIVES ON OUR ISLAND .
�AS THE JAPS WERE STILL COMING SOUTH IN NEW GUINEA WE NOW AIDED
THE AUSSIES AND LOADED AN ON WHEELS FIELD PIECE PLUS PLANKS
AND SOLDIERS ON THE BARGE . PROCEEDE TO NEARBY ISLAND AND
BEACHED THE FRONT OF BARGE. AUSSIE PUSHED PLANK OVERBOARD
AND IT IMMEDIATELY SANK. HEAVY TIMBER. FINALLY BUILT RAMP AND
OFF LOADED THE FIELD PIECE. THANKS .
ON PT BOAT PULLING UP TO DOCK I THREW A LINE TO CHUBBY GENT IN
CACKY AND HE HAD A RED HAT BAND . I ASSUMED HE WAS WITH THE RED
CROSS . HE PLACED THE LINE AND THEN AS I THANKED HIM HE
INTRODUCED HIMSELF AS GENERAL? AND WONDERED IF WE COULD
TRANSPORT HIM TO HORNE ISLAND, ACROSS THE WATER, AND THE
AUSSIE AIR BASE . OUR BOAT SKIPPER SAID GLAD TO .
NOW AGAIN NORTH AND A SHORT STOP IN PORT MORESBY, NEW GUINEA.
THE JAPS DID NOT MAKE IT TO HERE AND NOW WERE BEING PUSHED
BACK OVERE THE MOUNTAINS. I BELIEVE IT IS THE OWEN/ST ANLEY
RANGE . EAST TO PORT MORESBY AND KANA KOPE WAS BEING
CONSTRUCTED FOR OUR BASSE . TENTS ON STILTED FLOORS FOR BASE
PERSONAL AND QUONSET WORK SHOPS ETC. CHATTED WITH A CB ,
BUILDING QUONSETS, AND HE HAD WORKED FOR MY DAD BACK HOME .
THE RAINY SEASON WAS ALL AS BAD AS WE EVER HEARD AND AT TIMES
WORSE- MOLDY EVERYTHING.
NOW ON PATROL ON THE EAST COAST OF NEW GUINEA. NIGHTS WE
PATROLLED NORTH ALONG THE COAST TO INTERCEPT ANY BARGES ETC .
AS THEY TRIED TO RESUPPLE THERE TROOPS. IN THE EARL Y DAYS THE
BARGES FELT SAFE AND WERE NOT ARMED BUT AFTER LOSSES TO PT
BOATS THEY INSTALLED GUNS ON FUTURE BARGES. WITH MUFFLED
ENGINES WE SILENTLY CREPT ALONG THE COAST AND WHEN BARGES
WERE SPOTTED- MUFFLERS OPENED AND FULL SPEED AHEAD FOR
BROADSIDE OF OUR TWIN FIFTY CALIBERS AND TWENTY MILLIMETER
ORLECON. A COUPLE OF RUNS TOTALLY DISABLED AND USUALLY SANK
THE BARGES WITH NO SURVIVORS.
DAYS WERE SPENT REFUELLING AND TIED UP UNDER TREES IN TUFI
RIVER. HERE I MET AUSSUE COAST WATCHERS ON TOP OF TUFI HILLS .
THEY REPORTED JAP ACTIVITY AND WERE OF GREAT HELP TO THE WAR
EFFORT. ENJOYED FRESH PINEAPPLE AND BANANAS .HERE THANKS TO
THERE LOCAL SUPPL Y.
WATERFALL AT TUFI RIVER WAS NICE TO BACK UNDER FOR FRESH WATER
SHOWERS. WE SWAM HERE UNTIL ONE NIGHT HEARD NOISE IN THE RIVER
AND FOUND A CROCODILE SWIMMING ABOUT. END OF SWIMMING. NOW
THW JAPS HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED AT BUNA SO WE MOVE NORTH AGAIN.
FINALL Y A MOTHER SHIP JOINS US AT BUNA AND NO LONGER HAVE A
LONG TRIP SOUTH FOR SUPPLIES .
�BUNA WAS AN EXCELLENT LOCATION TO TIE UP BY A BEACHED lAP
LANDING BARGE AND DIVE UNDER THE PT TO REPLACE ZINCS ON THE
STRUTS . SALTWATER DISSOLVED THE ZINCS FAIRLY FAST. ALSO GOOD
PLACE TO REPLACE BANGED UP SCREWS AND SO FORTH. WITH NO DIVING
GEAR THE SALT WATER WAS A BIT HARD ON THE EYES AFTER FREQUENT
DIVES. THE MORNING AFTER A NIGHT PATROL REQUIRED ROLLING FIFTY
FIVE GALLON BARRELS OF HIGH OCTANE GAS, UPRIGHTING THE BARRELS
AND HAND PUMPING THRU A SHAMMY. A NIGHT PATROL USUALLY
REQUIRED TWO THOUSAND GALLONS OF GAS MORE OR LESS .
THE BUNA BARGE WAS PICTURED ON THE COVER OF A LIFE MAGAZINE.
NOW NORTH TO MOROBE RIVER AND PATROLS ENCOUNTERING ARMED
BARGES . THE lAPS WERE DESPERATE TO RESUPPLY THEIR TROOPS ON
NEW GUINEA AND A LARGE GROUP SET OFF FROM NEW BRITAIN TO BE
SUNK BY AIRCRAFT AND US NAVY. ORDERS WERE TO TAKE NO
PRISONERS AND ALLOW NO lAPS TO MAKE IT TO SHORE .
FROM MOROBE WE PATROLLED NORTH TO THE LAE/SALAMOA AREA AS
THE lAPS WERE BEING PUSHED FURTHER NORTH. ONE NIGHT IN CAPE
GLOUCESTER ON THE WEST SIDE OF NEW BRITAIN I GLANCED UP THRU
THE ENGINE ROOM HATCH AND THE AMERICAN FLAG WAS BRIGHTLY LIT
UP, EMERGENCY FULL SPEED AND THE SHOOTING BEGAN. A SHELL, FROM
lAP DESTROYER, HIT BEHIND OUR SISTER PT BOAT AND SPRAYED
SHRAPNEL WOUNDING SOME AND WE SHOT OUT THE lAP SEARCH LIGHT
THEN LAID A SMOKE SCREEN BEHIND WOUNDED PT AND LED THE WAY
HOME. NO WIN SITUATION.
FROM MOROBE A GROUP OF PTs WAS TRANSFERRED TO KIRIWIANA
ISi;AND TO NOW PATROL NORTH TO THE RABUAL AREA. RABUAL, NEW
BRIT AIN WAS A LARGE lAP STRONGHOLD AND SUPPLIED THE NEW
GUINEA ARMY. WE TRANSPORTED A MARINE, AUSSIE AND NATIVE TO
NEW BRITAIN SHORE FOR SPYING AND HAD A SET PICK UP ROUTINE IN
HOPE THEY RETURNED .
CHRISTMAS DAY 1943 ON A GAS BARGE FUELING A PT BOAT FIRE BROKE
OUT AND THREE OF US SWAM ASHORE . AN ARMY AMBULANCE RIDE TO A
ARMY FIELD HOSPITAL IN THE CENTER OF THE ISLAND AND A BED IN A
TENT WITH SLIT TRENCH ALONGSIDE IN CASE OF AN AIR RAID . BURNED
AREAS WRAPPED IN GAUZE THAT HAD SOAKED IN "FOIL" AND LEFT ON
FOR TIME ONLY POURING MORE OF THE LIQUID ON DAILY.
AS THE ARMY SUFFERED FROM LACK OF US SUPPLIES AS WE DID THEY
SOMEHOW HAD AN OVER SUPPLY OF SALMON. BAKE, BOILED AND
STEWED SALMON THREE TIMES PER DAY. LUCKILY OUR SKIPPER VISITED
AND BROUGHT SOME NAVY CHOW PLUS A FEW BEERS FOR OUR USE .
BACK TO THE NAVY AND RETURN TO NEW GUINEA. NOW FINCHAVEN
AND WEWAK TO END lAPS OCCUPATION OF NEW GUINEA.
�A SHIP TO BRISBANE, TRAIN RIDE TO SYDNEY AND FEW DAYS OF R&R
THEN A LIBERTY SHIP TO SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA. TRAIN TO
CHICAGO AND THIRTY DAY LEAVE THEN TRAIN TO BOSTON. AND A
SHORT STAY IN CHELSEA NAVAL HOSPITAL. ARMY TRANSPORT SHIP TO
LIVERPOOL, ENGLAND ARRIVING ON A DARK RAINY NIGHT.
A TRAIN SOUTYH TO PLYMOUTH AND OUR FIST SIGHT OF BARRAGE
BALLOONS FLYING OVER AN ARE THAT HAD BEEN BOl\1BED. EAST TO
FERRY BOAT BEING USED AS PT BOAT BASE ON THE ENGLISH CHANEL.
NOW IN SQUADRON THIRTY FOUR, A FIRST CLASS MOTOR MACHINIST
MATE AT OVER A HUNDRED DOLLARS PER MONTH. AND NOW A
DIFFERENT WAR.
WITH CHERBOURG, FRANCE OCCUPIED BY US ARMY WE NOW MOVED
OUR BASE TO CHERBOURG AND A HARBOR LOADED WITH EVERYTHING
THE RETREATING GERMANS COULD SINK. FINALLY CLEARED ENOUGH
FOR SUPPLY SHIPS AND THRY CONSTANTLY UNLOADED SUPPLIES TO BE
TAKEN TO THE FRONT VIA RED BALL EXPRESS.
VIEWING THE CONCRETE U-BOAT PENS AND THE CONCRETE GUN
EMPLACEMENTS COVERING THE CHANEL IT IS AMAZING THE GERMANS
WERE DEFEATED HERE . BASE FORCE NOW RESIDED IN AN OLD NAPOLEAN
BARRACKS .
PATROLS EVADED GETTING INTO SHOOT OUT WITH GERMAN E BOATS
THAT WERE BASED ON AN ISLAND NEAR CHERBOURG. THE 120 FOOT E
BOATS WERE FAST AND HEAVLY ARMED . RETURN TO ENGLAND AND
SOME OF THE BOATS WENT TO SCOTLAND TO BE GIVEN TO THE
RUSSIANS.
SHW TO BOSTON, TRAIN TO CALIFORNIA AND THE SHOEMAKER NAVL
RECEIVING STATION. PASSED OUT AND ENDED UP IN THE SHOEMAKER
NAVAL HOSPITAL. TRAIN TO CHICAGO FOR DUTY NEAR HOME. GREAT
LAKES NAVAL HOSPITAL, END OF WWII AND RECEIVED A MEDICAL
DISCHARGE.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LindnerP
Title
A name given to the resource
Lindner, Paul (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lindner, Paul
Description
An account of the resource
Paul Lindner was born in Indiana in the early 1920s and joined the US Navy on July 3, 1941. Paul went through basic training in Chicago and was then sent to Rhode Island to train as a mechanic working on torpedo boats. Paul later traveled through the Pacific to Panama, Australia, New Guinea, Milne Island, Boona, and Kiriwina Island. Paul was also sent to Europe where he patrolled off the coast off Plymouth, England, and Cherbourg, France. He was eventually transferred to the Pacific shortly before the war ended, and never served there. Photographs and an account of military service are appended to interview outline.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Navy
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-06-29
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f599963ae6155f1e68c94b7bfaa73e7.mp4
4cbeddb7372556c0d7c5cbc7c8c78307
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7afe1d218fb38b526df06480d2016160.pdf
ef5c55ced5cefde12fb0bbf849a6a435
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Gerd Lindemann Disk 1
(1:30:14)
Background Information (00:06)
Born December 10th 1923 in Rodach, Germany. (00:07)
He attended school in Rodach until 1932, at this time his father got a new job and the family
moved to Coburg Germany(00:30)
After this 4th year of public school he was encouraged by his father to take his high school
equivalency exam which was allowed in Germany at this time. (1:00)
His father worked for the German equivalent of the IRS at this time (1932)(1:07)
He is the oldest of 5 boys. (1:25)
His father was very strict (perhaps due to his father’s military experience.) (1:36)
He had family who served in World War I for Germany. (2:04)
His father’s stepbrother served as the Captain of the Battleship Bismarck. (2:53)
From high school he went to practical school. He desired to be a mechanical engineer; he was
accepted to an engineering school near the state of Thuringia, Germany. (3:20)
He was given an order to serve for 2 years in a practical school (4:18)
During his 2 years in practical school he worked on basics such as floor machine molding and
machining to the drafting room. Knowledge of these things was tested when he returned to the
engineering college. (4:50)
After his exam he was offered 2 semesters of “mail courses” where he was sent the books and
papers rather than attending a class. (5:54)
While studying his classes were interrupted after being visited by some SS officers looking for
volunteers for the German military. (approx 1938) (6:27)
Several men volunteered for the army and the navy but none volunteered for the SS. (6:50)
The SS officer was very upset. In response all the men in the engineering school were drafted
into the infantry. (Approx 1940)(7:00)
Three weeks later the men received there marching orders in spite many of the men being a
year too young. (17 years of age.) (7:28)
Basic training in NCO school (approx 1939) (7:40)
He had to report to the military Barracks in Nuremberg Germany where he was given a medical
examination. (7:52)
An officer at Nuremberg heard of how the men from the engineering college were drafted into
the infantry and said that due to their background they should be officers. (8:22)
He was then sent to NCO school (8:44)
His father said that he and his brothers could fight the order after finding out Gerd was drafted,
but Gerd discouraged him from doing so as it could put members of his family in danger. This
was due largely to fear of the SS. (9:04)
In Germany the SS was feared greatly. (9:27)
�
An SS private had more power than an officer in the army, air force, or any other military
branch. (9:40)
When hearing he would be going to NCO school he was originally relieved but then he found out
it was in the state of Prussia. People from this area did not like people from Rodach, the town in
which he was born. (10:19)
In NCO school he was required to scrub tiles and grout grove which officers had purposely
dumped sand in. (11:12)
NCO school was much like American Basic training. (11:53)
On a typical day he woke up at 6:00 AM and he slept with 4 men in one room with one study
desk. (12:17)
One man was required to go get the rations and coffee for the 4 others in the room. (12:48)
At 7:00 AM he was out on the parade ground. (13:15)
On the parade ground they were separated into lines and made to do pushups and other
physical activity. (13:23)
When receiving their uniforms the men appeared comical because their parts never fit properly
so they needed to be exchanged. (14:09)
In NCO school Rifles were issued and how to march was taught. (15:10)
A book issued to teach military doctrine, was often read and study during the evening. (15:25)
The entire outfit and school was composed of 1 battalion consisting of 4 companies of 120.
(16:21)
At the end of NCO school the men paraded with their rifles in a ceremony to signify its
completion. (16:43)
Many men were thankful to finish NCO school with their lives because during the course 4 men
hanged themselves due to the rigor of the training. (17:20)
During NCO school there was regular class, each course lasting about 1.5 hours every day.
(17:58)
The men were required to walk everywhere during basic training. (18:27)
The men were also asked to attempt to climb birch trees. (20:01)
After completing NCO school the men were given a choice. They could go on to be a part of the
regular army or infantry, or they could be specified as an officer based on their performance.
(20:28)
He was recommended to go into officer training. (20:50)
He was somewhat pleased with this order because he would be taken out of the basic infantry
conditions. (21:25)
Officer training (approx 1939-1940) (22:10)
He was made to walk to officer school in Potsdam. (22:40)
The officer’s school was composed of sturdy permanent stone buildings. (Built to withstand
artillery.) (22:50)
When he arrived he was immediately placed into groups and lead to his quarters. 2 men were
placed in a room. (23:18)
The school was similar in appearance to a college. (23:45)
Basic training he thought was tactics held over from World War I however in officer’s school
there were more modern strategies implored. (24:25)
�
In the middle of each floor of the barracks there was a bugler used to wake up the men. (25:11)
The food was not very good. (26:30)
A sense of camaraderie was held over from basic training. This was believed to be critical for
survival n the battle field. (26:50)
He had his pilot’s license at aged 16 in 1939. Because of this he was asked to be crossed trained.
He turned it down however because he did not want to be protected by his father. Instead he
selected tanks because he admired the machinery. (27:25)
School of tanks (Approx 1940-1941) (28:55)
This school was at the same place as the officer school. (29:20)
Depending on performance in class and grade on the final evaluation a man might be placed in
charge of a single tank or a battalion of tanks. (29:30)
Just because a man was in officer school did not necessarily mean he would be placed in an
officer position. Some men could be placed in maintenance. (30:09)
After finding out about the search for soldiers for the Afrika Korps. He wanted to go in order to
avoid serving under a particular general. (32:07)
Approx. 1 week after hearing about the call for Afrika Korps he was transferred to Ansbach
Germany because it was his county district for military draftees. (35:29)
When arriving at Ansbach the office there did not know what to do with him. (36:25)
2 days after carving in Ansbach he received transfer papers to Kaiserslautern.
During this time he was given the promotion to lieutenant. (37:04)
Assignment in Kaiserslautern (41:28)
After checking in at Kaiserslautern, he was the first officer there. Because of this he was
assigned to put a company together from volunteers in the area.
He had no assistance at this time in this task. He was required to examine the backgrounds of all
the men who volunteered. (42:45)
At this time new Mark III tanks were assigned and African uniforms were given. (44:00)
There was no training given for desert warfare however this region did have sandy soil and there
was artillery for training. (44:35)
Handbooks were given with some information on desert warfare. (45:03)
He and other men had very little of an idea as to who their enemy would be. They assumed that
much of the enemy would be colonial and native peoples with the British serving as officers.
(45:49)
The people he would be fighting were particularly feared for their knife work. (46:56)
Erwin Rommel had had to learn armored tactics, and was involved in the fighting in Poland and
France. (47:42)
The first troops in Africa were not he Afrika Korps but rather the Italian army in Africa. Rommel
did not want to place German soldiers in the Italian army because their military practice was far
too different. (48:27)
Arrival in Africa (1941) (49:35)
�
After the company was assembled and 4 weeks of training with equipment, the men were order
to load the tanks on to the flatbeds (3 tanks per flatbed) and took the train to Naples Italy.
(49:36)
He was given papers to read to the men that instructed what to expect in Africa. (53:50)
The train trip took 2 days. (54:24)
He was given papers to give to Rommel in Africa. At this time he was unaware that he would be
part of Rommel’s staff. (55:14)
The men and the tanks were loaded onto ships. (The tanks were kept on deck. ) And he sailed to
Tripoli in North Africa. Only the driver and one man were left with the tanks on the ship, the
others were flown over in JU 52s. It took 2.5 hours. (55:38)
After landing, MPs instructed the men were to go. The men were to be ready when the tanks
arrived. (57:29)
The MPs stated that the tanks should be off the boat fast and then hid under things such as
palm trees. This was to prevent sightings from recon planes or attacks from bombers. (58:10)
When everything arrived, the men were given food, and then the MPs directed the Squad to the
headquarters in El Agheila. (59:16)
The environment had palm trees and cactus. (Desertlike.) (1:00:03)
The men were assigned not to take their shirts off because it’s a court martial offence. The sun
burn that resulted was considered self destruction. (1:00:40)
No men had heat stroke because every 2 hours the men stopped to open the hatches on the
tanks and cool them. (1:01:25)
Covers were used to protect the gun as well as the optics of the tanks from sand. (1:02:30)
When driving in sand there was a fear that the sand getting into the machine parts would cause
break downs. (1:03:27)
If a tank breaks down the entire group stops to assist the broken tank or to check their own.
(1:04:26)
When driving the tank in the desert it was compare to driving on water due to the wave like
motions. (1:05:26)
The men were given caps as well as goggles. (1:06:51)
Because the tanks were intended to be 25 feet apart, the men were routinely asked if they were
keeping their distance or if they could see the man in front of them if the conditions were bad.
(1:07:25)
The men stopped for the night during the trip and set up tents. (1:09:18)
At night the men had over coats and a belt. These where used to protect from the sand.
(1:09:54)
The men only had 2 jerry cans of water (a jerry can is a gas tank but painted a different color to
distinguish it as water.) (1:10:17)
The men often only ate at night because of the sand and flies during the day. (1:11:00)
The men were concerned that they might get injured from being attacked by flies. (1:12:05)
Arrival at headquarters (1:13:07)
The tanks were taken 500 yards away from the headquarters. (1:13:15)
He was guided to the tent (which served as HQ)(1:14:35)
He gave the papers to Rommel’s assistant, Colonel Bayerlein. He was impressed with meeting
Rommel but he did not know how to react. (1:15:23)
�
The men were offered food at the HQ from their kitchen rather than the men eating their
rations. (1:16:55)
When Rommel received the papers he read the cover letter and found that the tanks were given
letters but not numbers because they did not know what area they would be sent. Rommel was
impressed by how well Lindemann had organized his company and stated that he wanted him to
stay at the HQ because he had very few officers. (1:19:37)
In spite being too low a rank to hold the position of commander of his company, he was made
an Appointed Commander. This was a great honor. (1:21:40)
After being in Africa for 2 months, the men earned the Afrika Korps stripe. (1:22:57)
From here he was sent to the front lines and on an “orientation trip” he was given 4 coordinates
and told to travel to them. However he was told if assistance was needed platoons would be
taken out of the company to be sent to areas in need. (1:26:04)
He was told to put everything on a map or else it would be easy for him and his men to get lost,
especially at night. (1:27:27)
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Gerd Linderman Disk 2
(1:21:23)
Note* At this time the second tape begins and the time Code restarts. Information that was included in
the first tape will not be rerecorded in the outline.
First engagement (1942) (3:05)
The British at El Alamein had bunkers and mine fields prepared. (3:20)
He was shown films from observation planes as well as was given information from Arabs. (4:25)
The Arabs often contacted the Germans (in spite there being men and mine fields) to sell food.
The men were warned not to buy any meat from the Arabs. (5:01)
He traded British tents and Clothing for goods with civilians. (5:52)
He was pitted against the 8th British army. However at this time, much of the original soldiers
were gone. Now the army was primarily colonials, including South Africans and Indians [also
New Zealand, Australians—the armored formations were nearly all British]. (6:26)
The battles were fierce because the British soldiers were told about what would happen if they
were taken prisoner. However in Africa, the Germens treated their prisoners kindly. (7:17)
He had 12 tanks but by the time he reached El Alamein he only had 8 tanks. The tanks were not
destroyed but rather they were mad un-operational due to sand and the environmental
conditions. (8:00)
The men were usually given information the day before via radio. (9:16)
The way his tanks were set up was 5 on the left, 5 on the right and 1 communication tank in the
middle who maintained communication with the infantry as well as with other tanks. (10:00)
There was a shortage of ammunition. Often British artillery was turned around so that the
Germans could use their ammunition. (11:11)
When the hatches close and the battle began a tank man worried little about what going on
outside the tank. (11:50)
�
A tank battle was much like a Battle between destroyers at sea. Much of the time tanks spent
their efforts trying to evade enemy tanks. (12:57)
In this battle he failed to get very far because there was too much artillery on the opposing side.
This cased great clouds of dust. (14:25)
The tank vibrated and was noisy when exposed to artillery or grenades that exploded closely to
the tank. (14:58)
The tanks rarely fired because they only had 80 shells. However, they were advancing forward.
(15:55)
They got through the basic defense but due to poor visibility were then ordered to reverse.
(16:14)
There was a conference of the tank commanders after the battle to conclude what went wrong.
The battle had few casualties in Gerd’s the infantry and none in his tank crew. (17:29)
Rommel made the decision to fly air aircraft over the battle and dive bomb the artillery in an
attempt to destroy them. They were unsuccessful. (17:58)
It was concluded that they needed a larger attack force. (19:00)
In the mean time the commanders studied the map of the battle field. (19:47)
At this time a lot of men had Malaria. No man had nets or anything to protect against
mosquitoes. (20:48)
The 164th division was sent in from Greece in mid 1942. This was a poor decision because they
were a guard divisions and they were very old. They were inclined to get sick very quickly.
(22:05)
The tanks were placed behind dunes in defensive positions. (23:35)
The British broke through south of his position at the Italian position. (24:19)
The British controlled a critical roadway with dive bombing witch crippled the tank’s movement.
(25:10)
After the British broke through he was forced to retreat. (24:54)
He now was tasked with covering other units that were retreating before them. (27:48)
Experiences with Desert Combat (28:35)
He moved 20-30 miles a day. They would stop whenever they encountered any enemy forces.
(28:38)
By October of 1942 he had not engaged in any tank to tank combat. (29:42)
On the retreat from Alamein, the German 88mm antitank guns were cable of firing farther than
British tanks, so the British were afraid to close with them. (30:10)
At night, they would send recon men out and tail defense. The tail defense was a basic unit with
anti aircraft and tank guns with armor and heavy machine guns. (31:18)
The air craft he saw during service were mostly fighters and light bombers. (32:25)
His company did not experience any attacks from fighters. (32:50)
By November of 1942 the tanks are still on the move. (33:46)
December of 1942 (34:00)
�
In December of 1942 B-17s are brought in to carpet bomb the area. This was due largely to the
fact that dried up river beds could be used to hid trucks or tanks during the day and hid them
from troops. (34:11)
These bombings used a lot of ammunition but where over all ineffective. (35:36)
After the bombing the men fell back to defense areas in Mersa Matruh. Here there was a small
harbor where the men could get some supplies. However much of it was sunk before the
Germans received it. (36:40)
Minor battles were encountered all along in a cat and mouse sort of combat. (38:12)
A line finally was established from Gabes to the Blue Mountains [Tunisia] in December of 1943.
(38:38)
Through he could only hear sounds while in the tank, he was given the impressions that the
British had a lot of things in Africa the Germans didn’t have. (40:09)
He was brought to headquarters in Gabes. Here the men discussed what the situation was like
and determined at what location they should take a stand. (41:02)
He did not feel he could report this information accurately at HQ because he did not know if he
would be able to get critical supplies such as ammunition and food. (42:00)
It was decided to move forced farther back. (43:08)
There was not a sense that if he and his men took a stand they could come out victorious. This
was due mainly to the lack of supplies particularly in gasoline and oil. (43:43)
The British feared that if the Germans reached the Suez Cannel then the Germans would halt all
ship traffic. (44:15)
The men were given a day to move to their new position. At this time some Italian troops have
prepared defensive measures. (44:59)
In December of 1942 his company received their first Tiger tanks through Tripoli from Italy.
(46:16)
The men were trained on how to operate the Tiger tanks by civilians from the factory. (47:00)
There was a big difference between fighting American and British troops. At night German
soldiers could sneak up on Americans or listen to them. This was due primarily because they
were uninformed on desert conditions and new to desert combat. (48:15)
At the time of the American arrival he was and his company was in rest waiting to be drawn to
the Western from. (49:20)
Engagement in the Western Front (49:35)
In January of 1943 his company was instructed to move to the western front. (49:45)
The Americans were extremely well supplied but inexperienced. (49:54)
The Tiger tank was demoralizing because even artillery shells were ineffective against it. (51:00)
At Kasserine in February 1943 the Americans became boxed into an area. (51:45)
The German tanks could receive the American tank radio signal. Most of the men being able to
speak English, they all listened in. (53:18)
The Americans called out particular landmarks making the estimation of the American
movements very accurate. (54:18)
In May of 1943 he was assigned to close off the entrance to the Cap Bon Peninsula to hold off
the Allies long enough to evacuate the air forces. He fought the British there first. (55:10)
�
In order to avoid Tiger tanks from being captured he destroyed their barrels and engines of the
machines. (57:10)
The British began shelling the area after spotting the tank explosions. Gred was then struck with
a piece of shrapnel in the leg. (58:00)
The British then moved in and Gerd was captured on May 11th 1943 at 4:30 PM. (58:30)
Capture by the British. (58:35)
He was interrogated but not to a great existent and he was treated fairly well. (59:10)
He was then sent to Constantine were there was field hospital. (59:50)
He was told at Constantine that his wound is so serious that he needs to go to a bigger hospital.
(1:01:04)
Most of the casualties in Constantine were British. (1:01:15)
Gerd’s parents were informed that he was dead due to confusion over a tank that exploded.
(1:01:35)
He was then sent to Casablanca. Here he was given food water and medical care. (1:02:43)
The box car he and other men were carried upon took fire by machine gun during the trek to
Casablanca. As a result, when he arrived at the city hundreds of men were already dead.
(1:04:00)
When handed over to Americans at Casablanca he was placed in a field hospital. Here, Germen
medics who had been captured aided him. 10 days after arriving he was sent on a transport to
the U.S. (1:05:00)
He was loaded onto the Puerto Rico (a medical transport ship). The trek took 10 days. Many
wounded Americans were in aboard the ship as well. (1:05:57)
He arrived in New York and was placed in Halloran Hospital (approx. late 1943). (1:07:00)
Movement within the U.S. (1:07:48)
He was then transported to Topeka, Kansas, on a Hospital train. (1:07:54)
He was then sent to a hospital outside of Topeka. Here he got very little sleep because there
was a B17 Base near the Hospital doing bomb runs. (1:08:15)
Because he was treated well early on while in American custody, he was not too scared of what
might happen to him. (1:09:09)
Due to his officer status he was next transported to Camp Carson in Colorado (approx late
1943)(1:01:27)
He didn’t like it at this camp, so he asked if he could change camps. The only way to do so, he
was told, was to give up all of his officer privileges and become a G.I.(1:11:23)
He was transported to Camp Ellis in Illinois. Here he saw his destroyed tiger tanks and many of
the men from his company. (1:12:40)
The Americans there were eager to convince the Germans to show them how the tanks operate.
When none of the men were willing to give up the secret, Gerd was transferred to Fort Custer
Michigan. (1:13:20)
At Fort Custer he was placed in charge of repair shops. Here he repaired radios, telephones, ext.
(1:14:10)
�Life after imprisonment (1:15:35)
After being released from Fort Custer he returned to college and received a degree in
engineering. (1:15:45)
Unable to find a job out of college he considered immigrating to another country such as
Venezuela. (1:16:00)
He wrote a family member who lived in Venezuela who said he should not go there due to poor
employment. (1:16:40)
He decided to immigrate to the U.S. He arrived in Chicago and then moved to Frankfort
Michigan. He then worked for a factory. (1:17:14)
After realizing the Plant he was working at in Frankfort was going under he resigned from his
position. (1:17:39)
He currently resides in Grand Rapids Michigan. (1:20:30)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LindemannG0510V
Title
A name given to the resource
Lindemann, Gerd (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lindemann, Gerd
Description
An account of the resource
Gerd Lindemann was born in Rodach Germany, trained as a tank officer and commanded a tank company in the Afrika Korps in 1942 and 1943. He fought at El Alamein and Kasserine, and was captured in May, 1943. He was sent to the United States as a POW, went home after the war, and eventually returned to the United States.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer), Michigan Military Preservation Society (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, German
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Germany--Heer--Panzerarmeekorps Afrika
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-05-20
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/13c264804ba7a6ceec45210891d521a1.mp4
add010a8e81dc3f36f69e93c57cfc8f3
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4d587f98ef438d14bd6caec5971628ca.pdf
86e487caa44ab8b589e04b418e6d7b30
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Joy Lillie
Length of Interview: 20:23
(00:06)
XX: Now tell me your name again.
JL: Joy Lillie.
XX: Are you from this area?
JL: I was born in Coopersville. Always lived here all my life.
XX: I see. And your connection, as far as you’d like to talk about tonight, as far as World War
II. Were you in the service yourself?
JL: I was in the 51st Field Hospital.
XX: So you were one of the WACs?
JL: No, the Nurse’s Corp.
XX: The Nurse’s Corp, okay.
(00:34)
JL: We were with the hospital. The Nurse’s.
XX: Were you a nurse, prior to you doing this?
JL: Yeah. I was a nurse at home. Graduated from St. Mary’s in Grand Rapids. And then I went
into the service. And I got assigned to Africa first.
XX: Were they soliciting people like yourself?
JL: Oh, yeah. I volunteered. I volunteered while I was in Detroit. And that was good.
SS (someone witnessing interview): Without Dad knowing? Did you talk to Dad first? About
it.
JL: No, I hadn’t talked to Dad and Mother about it. (laughter) I had a hard time getting in
nurse’s training with them, let alone joining the Army. But we did it.
(01:29)
�XX: So you didn’t have much training when you were in the Army? You were already
trained…
JL: Yeah. I was trained before I went in. We went right into the hospital. As soon as I joined
the service, I went right onto the hospital floor.
XX: And so when you left this country, the first place you went was where?
JL: North Africa. I was there nine months, doing nothing. We were assigned to a hospital ship,
used to bring back wounded soldiers. Well, we got over there and there were several units like
the one I was in. And they had just disbanded them. And so we were left in North Africa for
nine months, before we got back to the States. We didn’t do anything. We were just sitting in
the…
XX: What part of North Africa were you in?
(02:18)
JL: The north part near Iran. That’s where we were.
XX: It wasn’t a nice vacation spot.
JL: Well, it was. It was right on the sea. It was right on the Mediterranean Sea. It was beautiful
during the day but it was cold at night.
XX: What did you do to occupy your days for nine months?
JL: Well, we did nothing. We did nothing. Went to church. They had church every night so we
could go to church and we just wasted away, doing nothing.
(02:46)
XX: Is that right? So then you came back to the United States.
JL: I came back to the United States and within a couple weeks, I was reassigned to the field
hospital.
XX: Where?
JL: I was in South Carolina.
XX: I see.
JL: And was reassigned to the 51st Field Hospital. That was ready to go overseas, but one of the
nurses got pregnant so they had to get a recruit. And I had all of the overseas gear and
everything, so I was picked to go with them. Which made us all unhappy that we had to go
overseas so quick. But that didn’t matter. We went. It was a good unit. I was glad I was in it.
�(03:36)
XX: I’m going to…this gentleman is going to take over for me. She was in Africa and then
back here, and she’s about to go over again.
FV (female voice): Is that when you went to Normandy? When you went back a second time?
JL: Yeah.
(mixed conversation as interviewers change)
(04:37)
JL: Well, we were stationed on land. The hospital was there on D+2, and the nurses arrived on
D+6, of the invasion.
MV: How soon was it before you started seeing people come back to your hospital?
JL: Well, we had patients right away. And the boys and the officers took care of them, til we
got there, and then the nurses did their job, taking care of patients. And it was a story when we
got off the ship, the ship that we had landed at Normandy on, we had to crawl down a ladder to
get to the landing boat, and then the landing boat took us to shore. And then the commanding
officer that took care of us, we had to walk up a hill, and he said, now be sure you stay in line
because it hasn’t been mine-detected yet. So for sure we didn’t stray off of where we were
going. We were so scared, we were hearing noises and bombing and stuff. We were scared
enough without that on our heads.
(05:48)
JL: As we went up the hill, a funny experience happened. We, the enemy got pretty strong, so
we got off and got in a pill box. That the Germans had left. And there was a little sailor in there
and he was wounded. Not bad, but he was wounded. And he said, I wondered what all of these
women were doing in a place like that. He said. Eighteen women, we were divided into
platoons and there were eighteen of us. And he said, what in the hell are you doing here?
MV (male voice): When he found out, I bet he was pretty happy.
JL: Yeah. He was pretty happy. He had to wait to get fixed and he was wounded bad, so he was
taken later, fixed later. But that was an experience, going up that hill. But we landed on D+6,
and the enemy had been pushed back quite a ways, by that time. So by the time we got the
hospital set up, it was…we were stationed there a long time, before we got moved.
(06:54)
JL: And as it moved, our hospital was divided into three platoons. So we hopscotched each
other. We’d get all the patients healed enough to go back, and then another company would
have moved in ahead of us. And then we’d move ahead of them. And that’s the way the platoon
worked. So it was good, one of our platoons was always close to the lines. One time, our
commanding officer was pretty good about getting us close to the lines, he was old Army.
Regular Army, and he was pushy. And he got us too close to the lines one time. We got pushed
�back about a mile, in a ditch, overnight. Because of the air raids and stuff was too strong, we had
to move back. And that was an experience.
(07:44)
JL: We had a girl from the Headquarters with us that night, and she hadn’t been into the lines
that long. She was pretty scared. But that was what happened. And we went over to Germany,
through France, first. Followed the lines into Germany. We had one real bad part, at that time.
One of our units, in Germany, [Rockun] the town was. And the boys had been left out in the
field too long and they had gotten pneumonia. And that was the one place that we lost a lot of
soldiers. They had gotten pneumonia and we couldn’t save them. It was a very depressing set
up for us, because we didn’t usually lose many. That was real depressing, that time.
MV: Was that during the Bulge?
(08:47)
JL: Hmmm?
MV: Was that during the Bulge?
JL: No, the Bulge was later. Later after the war was over, the Bulge was going. But as the field
progressed towards the Germans, we got set up. They sent platoon after platoon. And we
covered a lot of territory after that, the lines were moving fast. We covered a lot of territory in a
short time. Then, after the war, or near when the war ended, we got this Battle of the Bulge. I
don’t know if you guys remember about that.
(09:25)
JL: But we were in Germany at the time, but we got pulled back to Belgium. Wei, a town by the
name of Wei, Belgium. It was a school that was set up as a hospital and we had patients from all
over. We had German patients and American patients and everything, all together. Cause there
were so many wounded at that time. And that was our story of the Bulge, that we landed there.
And that was the end of the war. When the Bulge finished, that was the end of the war for the
Germans. So then we were stationed in Russia, once. Well, we were on leave then. We were
just set up for patients of our own, our own wounded boys and so forth. If they shot their toe off
or something, in excitement. Something like that, that’s the kind of patients we got then.
(10:25)
JL: So, then, as we started home…I was going to tell you about Russ. When we were in the
fighting yet, I got leave to go down and see him. I was in 1st Army and he was in 7th Army.
My commanding officer got me a jeep and a driver and they drove me down to where Russ was.
And as I got there, he was coming up to see me. He’d gotten a jeep and was on his way up to see
me. So that was a very disappointing trip for me.
(10:59)
JL: But, we turned around and came back.
MV: Did you see each other?
�JL: Nope. We got together…he had boils on his legs, so the commanding officer of my platoon
put him in the hospital, so his leave didn’t get started until he left the hospital. So we had some
time together that time. That was exciting. But that’s about the history of my trip.
(11:24)
FV: How about when you flew in a P-48?
JL: Well, that was one time when I was trying to see Russ too, one time. I flew in a P-48.
From, gosh, I can’t remember. We went to Nuremberg. Where he dropped me off. But that was
exciting, riding in the back of the driver, or the pilot, you know. But anyway, that was good.
That was a good ride.
MV: Did you ever have to treat prisoners?
JL: Oh, yes. We treated them right along with Americans. If they were wounded, we had to
take care of them too. We had an experience with one. He was a captain and he was wounded.
And he spoke English real good. But he wouldn’t help us with his companions. They were
scared that we were going to kill them, and all that stuff that they’d been told that we would do.
He wouldn’t help us a bit. Not tell them that we were just trying to help them, or anything. But
eventually, he talked a little bit more but he was bad, cause he was bad for the morale of his own
soldiers.
(12:32)
JL: Because he didn’t let them know that we were really trying to help them and not hurt them.
But, yes, every set up, we had Germans, too.
MV: Now when you moved ahead, set these hospitals up, these tents, did somebody take them
down for you and set them up? Was there a crew who did that?
JL: No. We had the hospital and when we got enough blood and stuff in them, and we got them
ready so that they could transport back. To the Evac hospital, which followed the field hospitals.
And they kept them and they sent them back to the central surgical place. But we were the first
ones on the line. There were several hospital platoons. And we were right on the line. As soon
as the collecting station got them, we got them. We had bad patients, wounded bad. There were
stomachs and chests and amputations, and everything, we got, because they couldn’t go any
farther back until they were treated. So that was the kind of patients that we had.
(13:48)
JL: We had good surgeons, special surgeons. One for chests, one for stomachs, one for
amputations, so we had all kinds of good surgeons. They worked long hard hours too.
MV: Now what kind of a facility did you stay in?
JL: We had tents. We had tents. There were six of us to a tent.
�MV: So there were people who were in the medical corp who would pull those down and move
them ahead?
JL: Oh, yeah.
MV: Each time, for ya?
JL: There would always be somebody ahead. That’s the way we did it. One set up we had,
which was real bad. It was real cold, and we were in tents. The hospital was in tents and it was
so cold that the blood wouldn’t flow. So the engineers came and set up pot-bellied stoves to
warm up the area, so that the blood would flow. That was a bad set up, because it was so cold
and it was bad. But we didn’t lose too many due to that. But it was cold. Bad set up.
(14:59)
JL: We had all kinds. We’d set up in schools, mostly. If we could get into a town that had a
school vacant. Or we made it vacant. And we’d put our hospitals in the schools, instead of the
tents. But tent set ups were hard. We had a lot of rain and stuff. And engineers would come in
and put boards down and stuff, so we could walk between the patients beds and stuff. Engineers
did a good job, helping us. So that was good.
MV: How did you get back to the United States then, when the war was all over?
JL: Well, we were, after the war ended, we were stationed in different places until we got, until
our time come up. I had more experience overseas so I got back before my husband did. He had
more time in the Army, but he had more time in the States than I did overseas. So I got home
before he did. We’d go to these rest areas, until the boats came that we could go back on. But
we were stationed in a rest area until we had a boat to come home. Then we’d come home by
boat.
(16:14)
MV: Did you have to come home on a hospital ship?
JL: No. We didn’t. Cause we were all healthy. So we didn’t have to. We went over on one.
We come back once, on a hospital ship full of patients. We did that once. So that was good.
The boys were all good, waiting to go home. They were wounded but they were waiting to go
home. That was a good set up. The hospital ship, though, was lots less even to ride in. it wasn;t
a very big ship, like St. Mary’s and the others one were. But, it was…I didn’t get sick because I
got a good stomach, I guess. But a lot of them did get sick. Because we slept in the…our part of
the ship had five beds up, that we crawled into to sleep. But it was kind of weary, for some of
us.
(17:23)
JL: A lot of things happened. Another time, one of the things was a no-no. We’d gotten a
vacation in Paris. When our platoon was down, we got a trip to Paris and we had a… oh,
shoot…ride, not in a truck…but an ambulance. An ambulance truck. And we had six of us, in
this ambulance, riding to and from Paris. And we’re looking out and we saw a German tank out
�in a field. And they says, oh, let’s go see that. Of course, that was off limits, too, because we
didn’t know if it was mined or not, but we went. And we wished we hadn’t, because we looked
in it and it was full of dead Germans. Still and burnt to a crisp. We learned to stay off the fields
after that. We didn’t try that stuff anymore.
(18:34)
JL: But, as a whole, that was pretty much what I did.
MV: Now all the nurses, were they all officers?
JL: Um hmm. We were 2nd Leutenients when we went in. And I come out as a 1st Leutenient.
MV: So all of the RN’s started as officers.
JL: If you were an RN, you were 2nd Leutenients. Yup. It was a different kind of care then we
got in the States, but it was good. I’d do it again, if I were young and they needed me. It was a
good experience.
MV: Well, that was great.
FV: Can you talk about Buchenwald, Mom.
JL: Well, we went through one camp, concentration camp, and it was after the war. And we
were the first medical group through it. And the prisoners were still there. And the dead and the
live were still there.
(19:33)
JL: And we went in and fed the patients and took care of them. They all had dysentery so bad
they were in our tents. And we fed them soup that was in our C-rations. We added a little fat for
them, because they were so emaciated. Bad. They were in bad shape when we got to them. And
we took care of them until they could leave on, wherever they could go. But it was bad. A bad
set up. One we could have not seen, I think. It was not good.
(20:23)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LillieJ1344V
Title
A name given to the resource
Lillie, Joy (Interview transcript and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lillie, Joy
Description
An account of the resource
Joy Lillie, born in Coopersville Michigan, served in the 51st Field Hospital in the Army Nurse Corps from 1942 to 1945 during the Second World War. During her service she spent 9 months in Oran, Algeria, and went to Normandy shortly after D-Day and worked in France, Belgium and Germany.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Weikel, Daniel (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army. Women's Army Corps
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-09-20
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a632a78564ac8e6aabcdbd10e36b3f3f.mp4
0d9e6174e5f2bd8eb76ffc7176965207
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/71eba57feb42f8e4284510d0172f56c5.pdf
8cad0eac5c4e4067f8521d4863fcc8c2
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
James Lilley
Length: 51:47
(00:20) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
•
James was born in Ferndale, Michigan in 1922
His mother was a housewife and his father was chief engineer for Pontiac Motors
He has 2 brothers and 2 sisters
James graduated from high school in 1940
He then began working with his father in an apprenticeship that lasted for 2 years
When he was 17 he found himself very interested in planes and wanted to join the Air
Force
(4:40) Air Force Cadet Program
• James was sent to St. Petersburg, Florida in the summer of 1942 for ground school
• They stayed in a hotel that the government had converted and fitted with barracks
• He was the youngest cadet in the program and was interested in becoming a fighter pilot
• There was a lot of book work; they had engineering classes and learned about military
procedure
• After the cadet program he went through flight simulation training in Illinois
(9:26) Flight Training
• James was sent to Santa Ana, California for flight school
• They worked with an instructor and flew in small, twin-engine training planes
• James was classified into a fighter pilot after training and was then sent to flight school in
Las Vegas
• They flew P-63 fighter planes that were equipped with gun cameras
• He left the base on the weekends to go into town and would occasionally gamble in Las
Vegas
(14:20) Saipan
• James left from California and flew to Saipan
• They landed in a very dense jungle area and were automatically put on high alert
• The men were supposed to let others know that they were pilots because there were many
Japanese snipers trying to take out all the pilots
• They were not allowed to be a group with more than 4 pilots at once because others had
been attacked with enemy grenades
�•
•
•
They had gunners that guarded their tents and were even guarded while going to the
bathroom
There were about 7,000 natives on the island and most of them did not like the
Americans
James flew P-51 mustangs, working to escort B-24 Bombers and B-29s throughout the
Pacific
(19:25) Pacific Missions
•
James was very scared before he took off on his first mission
•
They had been preparing to take Iwo Jima so that they could put their fire squadron 1800
miles off the coast of Japan
•
When taking off from Saipan, they could not escort the B-29s completely through their
mission because the Mustangs could not carry enough fuel
•
If their base was on Iwo Jima, they could escort the B-29s through the entire mission to
Japan
•
James had been ordered to drop napalm over caves that held Japanese soldiers in Iwo
Jima
•
The island was covered in volcanic ash and very hard to walk on; much worse than sand
•
About 22,000 Japanese soldiers were killed on Iwo Jima and only about 100 were taken
prisoners; nearly 8,000 US troops had died on the island
•
They were able to secure the island and build runways for their base
(24:42) New Base
•
James and other pilots continued living in Quonset huts and there was decent food on the
island
•
The pilots were still to remain silent and were all guarded; they could not even write
home to their families
•
James flew 25 missions altogether and had 3.5 confirmed kills
•
He worked a tight schedule with no surprise missions in the middle of the night
•
He had not been expecting anything when he learned that the bombs had been dropped
over Japan
•
James had never seen such a large explosion and was not sure what would happen with
the war afterwards
�(28:55) Last Mission
•
James had been attempting to help a downed B-29 when he was hit by a Japanese 20 mm
•
His left leg was shattered and he lost control of his plane
•
He had to crash land on Iwo Jima with his wheels down
•
James was rushed into a first aid hut and then later transferred to a hospital in Saipan
•
He was later sent to Hawaii and then another hospital in Washington
•
James was able to sign paperwork and get discharged in 1946
(33:35) After the Service
•
James had gotten married while living in Las Vegas and his wife remained there waiting
for him
•
They moved together to Birmingham, MI and shortly later to Grand Rapids, Michigan
•
James was able to get a job working for Rapid Design Engineering
•
He then became the chief engineer for Butterball Farms and remained there for 20 years
(41:10) Retirement
•
James retired from his job after twenty years and found that he was bored
•
He worked part time at Menards until 2007
•
James now belongs to the Fighter Group from the Air Force Reserve and they meet twice
a year in Grand Rapids for dinner parties
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LilleyJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Lilley, James (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lilley, James
Description
An account of the resource
James Lilley was born in Ferndale, Michigan in 1922. He graduated from high school in 1940 and then spent two years in an apprenticeship with his father at Pontiac Motors. James enlisted in the Army Air Forces and went through basic training in St. Petersburg in the summer of 1942. James later went through flight school in California and trained to be a fighter pilot. After training James was stationed in Saipan where he escorted B-29s on their missions over the Pacific. James helped secure Iwo Jima and shortly after was injured on his last mission. He was discharged in 1946 and began his career in engineering.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
McCauslin, Kelly (Interviewer)
Spring Lake District Library (Spring Lake, Mich
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army Air Forces
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-01-31
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7525c086c1487aea149225a1ff8b4cb.mp4
854dbfec8d31f6e3bdb3d558935a32c3
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f9ab29220c9d261c82d9aa90e02172b2.pdf
79d81bbb2d03a33b4f09aed75f927e05
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Robert W. Lewis
Korean War
Total Time: (00:51:49)
Pre-Enlistment (00:44)
He was drafted into the service at age 23.
He was working as a parking lot attendant when he was drafted, and he was not
happy about it.
Training (01:37)
He attended basic training at Fort Belvoir, WV, and spent 8 weeks there. He also
spent time training for the combat engineers while he was there.
(02:55) They marched and went to the rifle range during basic. They also worked
practicing demolition. He was originally assigned to a demolition crew.
(03:35) He took his basic training and engineer training at the same base, but in
different sections.
In engineering training, he learned a number of things, including demolitions.
(04:38) During basic training, they were housed in barracks.
Active Duty (05:07)
They were sent across the Pacific Ocean on large boats, with up to 40000 men on
board.
(05:41) He landed at Pusan, Korea. They were put on smaller boats in Japan after
they crossed the Pacific. In Japan, they were sent to Camp Drake, where the men
were sorted and assigned to units. They boarded trains after they were sorted, and
took those to boats, which they boarded for Korea.
(08:48) They were put on trains to Seoul, Korea and then boarded trucks to
Wijanbu, Korea, there he was assigned to the 14th Combat Engineers.
They repaired and build roads in the area.
(10:15) While there, they were housed in larger squad tents
(10:20) The terrain in the area was mountainous. He remembers the people living
in small paper-mache houses.
(12:20) He arrived in Japan in January 1952 and continued on to Korea in the
same month.
(13:50) Wijanbu was the base of operations for the 14th Combat Engineers.
(15:01) He saw some combat from a distance.
There were some British and Australians that were stationed near them.
(16:20) They were also located next to a MASH unit.
(16:35) They started building bridges in the summer of 1952. The first bridge they
built called X-Ray, and was 92 pontoons long. The second bridge they built was
called Windsor Bridge. After the construction of Windsor (which was partly of
�
his design) he was promoted to sergeant. He was a bridge foreman, and had
around 40 men working for him.
(19:55) They built floating pontoon bridges and wooden bent bridges.
(21:32) He was around a mile and a half from the front.
(22:25) They generally stayed within a thirty mile radius.
(23:58) Their unit was also involved in building the Spoonville Bridge.
(22:35) They were up on the front on two occasions building bunkers and
machine gun nests for the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Marines.
(24:30) He was able to go to Tokyo on leave. He shopped while he was there.
(25:10) He earned about $300 a month, and he sent around half of it home.
During free time, they would often play cards or wrestle, and he was able to
communicate home by writing letters.
(27:05) While building the Spoonville Bridge, a new lieutenant decided that they
were going to work on the bridge at night by searchlight. While they were
working, they came under a mortar attack during which he was injured in the
mouth. This got the 2nd Lieutenant fired. This was one of the few time they were
fired upon or felt threatened with attack.
(31:40) They were provided generators for power, and had outdoor toilets. They
got to go to battalion headquarters once a month for a shower.
(33:55) They were the 14th Combat Engineer Battalion of the 1116th Regiment of
the 8th Army.
(34:29) There were no holidays while he was in Korea. R & R was decided by a
roster, which allowed the men to be sent to Japan for 5 days. He went 2 times. He
was sent home 2 months after his second visit.
(36:47) Because of his rank, he had very few friends while he was over there. He
turned down a field commission as 2nd Lieutenant so he could go home.
(40:35) He was assigned a Jeep, but that was taken away and he would ride
around in trucks.
He didn’t stay in contact with the men from his unit.
(42:40) His views on life changed because of the contact he had with the dead and
injured soldiers on the roads he built.
(45:00) They were occasionally shelled, and they did dig foxholes at their camp
and the worksites.
(46:05) They also built their own camp when they arrived. They moved only one
time, and it was only a short distance.
(48:55) He was able to go home when he received 36 points. He had 42 points
when he finally left.
Post-Service (50:40)
He had to readjust some after he returned home.
When he got back, he worked on the railroad.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LewisR
Title
A name given to the resource
Lewis, Robert W. (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lewis, Robert W.
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Lewis was drafted into the Army at age 26 and served in the Korean War. Upon being drafted, he joined the Army engineers and worked building bridges in Korea near the front lines. He also worked building foxholes and firing positions for the Marines.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Post, Kollen (Interviewer)
Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-05-30
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d3d76a365f84fbeb5482464f02f7689.mp4
ee23c3a0f1af6e0e90d60cede8e40541
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f6015a304c019728650366f552997a1c.pdf
c7a8193c8e8795d4698e77bed873f854
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Depression and World War II
Estelle Levin
Length of Interview: 1:41:37
(00:00)
JS: We’re talking today with Estelle Levin, of Cascade, Michigan. The interviewer is James
Smither of Grand Valley State University. Mrs. Levin, can you start by telling us a little bit
about your background. Where were you born and where did you grow up?
EL: Well, I was born in Glendale, California. I grew up on the north shore of Chicago. I grew
up in a suburb there, Glen Cove. When the war came, my family was not the only one that had
this problem. You could not get oil to heat the house, ‘cause most houses out there were not coal
burning.
JS: Let’s back up a little bit. Let’s fill in a little bit more before we get you there. For example,
when did you move from California to the Chicago area?
EL: I was three years old when my parents moved to Evanston, Illinois. We lived there for
about three years and then we moved to Glen Cove.
JS: Okay. Now why did your family move?
(00:58)
EL: Why does any family move? The father’s business, his job. And my dad was an inventor.
And he found fields to be much more fertile in the Chicago area than they had been out in
California. He was interested in the manufacturing of fountain pens. He made the first fountain
pen that did not have a rubber sack in it. And he needed the support of other manufacturers, at
that time it would have been Parker Pen Company in Janesville, Wisconsin. So that’s really how
we moved to Chicago. Then of course, once there, he commuted from Glen Cove, like all the
other fathers did. Mothers took their husbands down to the train station, that went on the north
shore or Northwestern, depending on where they were going. And then they were all back there
again at 5:30, 6:00, to pick them up again and bring them home. It was a very lovely life. It was
the beginning of suburban life. But when the war came, when the advent of the war came,
everything changed. You could not get oil to heat your house. There was no way to convert
those houses to coal. So that was one thing. It was too expensive as far as gas for cars. That
also became a premium item. Ultimately, that was rationed, along with meat, along with sugar,
along with shoes. Everybody had a ration book.
(2:39)
EL: For example, by the time I was old enough to go to college, I went to college with my ration
book. It was almost more important than my diploma. ‘Cause if you didn’t have a ration book,
you didn’t get anything to eat.
�JS: Now when did you start college?
EL: 1941. September of 1941.
JS: Okay. So there was rationing in place then, even prior to Pearl Harbor.
EL: Yes. Yes. It was, and I believe, from my study of history, that Roosevelt knew the war was
coming but he did not know we were going to get hit in Pearl Harbor. Because when this
happened, the Japanese ambassador was still in this country. And he got out, just at that time.
So they knew. They knew it was going to happen. As the war progressed, now we’re in the war
and we’re really the suppliers for all of Europe, for all the Allies, I should say, the rationing
system was operative. It was not something they diddled around with. It was operative.
(03:48)
EL: The other thing that was operative, and which it just amazes me that we haven’t done
anything like that with this war, was the whole saving bond program. I mean, if you…you were
confronted with this all the time, bond rallies. If anybody could buy a bond for $18.75 and hold
it and have it mature until $25, you could…there were more expensive bonds, but everything
was at a level that the ordinary person could participate in it. And as far as kids were concerned,
my sister was seven years younger than I, Tuesday was bank day. You could bring a dime and
get a sticker in your book, which would ultimately add up to the cost of a bond. And it was built
up from the very bottom of the population. I remember my sister was part of the MacArthur
Youth Core, General MacArthur. And each time you, it was a whole program. Each time you
did something a little bit more, you got elevated to the next level and you got a sticker that you
could wear.
(04:57)
EL: So there was a building up of an attitude which had just not existed in this situation. I was
on campus, at Knox College, when the war began. But the experience that we all had, on that…I
remember exactly where I was sitting, in that gymnasium, listening to Roosevelt. We had about
seven Nisei, Japanese American students. They were gone by the next day. We never really
understood why. They were interred probably with all the rest of them that were interred on the
west coast.
JS: The internment applied mostly to the people living on the west coast.
EL: No. Wherever there were Japanese students, they were off the campus.
JS: Well, that’s quite likely. They would not have been safe. The college people would
have…well, anyway, a number of things could have happened. In terms of what was legally
imposed by the government, it was primarily the western states, especially the pacific coast,
where official internment of the Japanese took place. And it didn’t place right after Pearl
Harbor. But the shockwaves were immediate.
(06:09)
�EL: Yes. We never really knew what happened to it. Perhaps this is my erroneous assumption,
because I don’t know where there were other places of internment.
JS: But they were there one day and gone the next.
EL: They were there and gone within twenty-four hours. And our whole life changed
dramatically. The building I lived in was a place called Whiting Hall. It was a girls dormitory.
It was built about 1870. And it had huge huge windows. We had blinds that we had to pull
down for privacy, but now all those rooms were equipped with blackout curtains. So that there
was no light coming through from those large windows. And then of course, we already had the
ration books. We came to college with the ration books. Knox was unusual in that they had
their own farmland, because it was a land grant school, but a private school. And they grew a lot
of their own produce and they had some of their own livestock. But we still had meat rationing.
(07:25)
JS: Right.
EL: Still had meat rationing. I never really thought that much about it, because at that time, you
just didn’t. Shoes were another story. Shoes were rationed and you got two pairs a year. That
meant that if there was a family that had growing children whose feet outgrew the shoes before
the next pair was available, somebody in the family gave up one of their ration tickets so that
they could get another pair of shoes. My sister and I…I’ve got to make a connection between
the war and the Depression. Because I was really a Depression child. And from my point of
view, and in my viewing of history, we didn’t really solve the Depression. The war solved the
Depression. One of the things that we did was to save aluminum foil. At that time, every piece
of chewing gum, every bit of candy bar, cigarettes, came with foil in the package. And my sister
and I, I can still see us sitting at the dining room table, smoothing out the foil. And when we got
a big enough ball, our dad would take it down to a place where you could get it weighed and they
would pay you for it. And that’s how we got spending money.
(08:47)
EL: We also got spending money by walking around with a little wagon, in the neighborhood,
city neighborhoods were not as neat as suburban neighborhoods, and they threw their tin cans,
their coke bottles, and you could take those back and get a nickel for them. So recycling was just
par for the course. You didn’t think otherwise. You didn’t think about it. I, by the time I was
sixteen, before I went away to school, I got a job in a local department store, Manilow’s,
working on Saturdays, in the basement. We had a shipment one particular day of nylon hose. It
was a riot. I don’t mean riot, fun. I mean a riot, there was a limit to two pair of hose. No ration
cards were involved in this. But there weren’t any hose. How we got these nylon hose, I don’t
know. But women were fighting for them. They were just fighting for them.
(09:49)
EL: There were shortages but everybody was in it. So nobody felt deprived, or victimized. And
I have to say, there was a different spirit than there is today. We all knew we were in this
together. There was a draft. If you were in college, and enrolled in a strategically important
program, you had more opportunity to avoid the draft. But by the time I left, I left Know College
�after my first year and went to be transferred to the University of Michigan, and the Japanese
language school was located there. And I mean…and also, the only topographical map of Japan,
in the whole United States, was located in the Geography department at the University of
Michigan. So the Japanese language school was there.
(10:59)
EL: You saw these fellas marching to and fro. There were very little social contacts with this
group. They were highly disciplined and highly trained. There were no cars. You walked.
Everyone was a lot healthier. It was cold but you still walked. You were aware that life was
changing. You didn’t quite understand how. I was involved with the Red Cross, both when I
was at Knox College and in Ann Arbor, and it was more than just rolling bandages. You actually
did some volunteer work in the hospitals, because key help was already involved in the build-up
as far as supporting what was going on. And the University of Michigan was located at Willow
run, which was the main manufacturing spot for the B-17s and the B-25s. And I subsequently,
the war was now still going on, I subsequently got a job in downtown Ann Arbor, at a clothing
store called the Darling Shops, I needed the money. I hated the job. But I needed the money.
(12:33)
EL: Our primary customers were from Willow Run. Huge amounts of people had come up from
the South, to work in the plants. And the reason I hated the job was because your job, my job, as
an employee, was to get two bucks out of these people and get them to sign a piece of paper and
then the store would get them for the rest of it, and it was just forever that they were paying, on
whatever this purchase was.
JS: Now what kinds of things were you selling?
EL: Clothing, primarily. Clothing. And that bothered me, that bothered me. Now, there were
other things. The draft. For those students, for the males that were still on campus, and there
were a lot of them, they had to report regularly to their draft boards. And if they didn’t keep
their grades up, they got swept up. And this was a fact, this was a fact of life. Scarcities, we
didn’t see as scarcities. It was just the way it was.
(13:49)
EL: I remember June 6, when the invasion began. I mean, the dorm was just abuzz at 6:30 in
the morning because it had come over on the radio. Remember, we had no television. We had
no instant messaging of any kind. A letter took forever. Transportation was primarily trains.
And I can remember going back and forth to Chicago one particular break and I rode standing up
halfway, because the train was so crowded. I wasn’t the only one. There were a lot of us. And
we just sort of, passengers who had seats would just get up and let you have a seat for a little
while.
(14:45)
EL: So there were a lot of dislocations. I think that the thing, I would like to bring out. There
were a lot of dislocations, but people accepted these things gracefully. There was just not some
of the whining you hear today. Now that may not be a nice thing to say, but I happen to feel that
we’ve been a pretty spoiled population. From the end of World War II until about, what, the
�early eighties, we’ve been through a period of our history that never was before and never will be
again. From an economic standpoint. And our kids grew up with, not necessarily with these
expectations, but just that’s the way it was. That’s the way it was.
JS: Sure.
(15:37)
EL: So, we’ve got a lot of things to face right now, I think. I don’t know how well prepared we
are for that.
JS: Well, certainly the economists are telling us what you just said. That we had this period of
prosperity and now, other people have caught up with us, and what happens. I’d like at this point
to backtrack a little bit and fill in a little bit more of sort of your own individual story and your
family story. Now when did you move from Glen Cove? Did you move into Chicago from Glen
Cove?
EL: Yeah. Yes.
JS: And what neighborhood or area did you move to?
(16:14)
EL: We were on the north side. 832 [Gunninson]. Which was a block off Sheridan Road. Oh, I
should tell you about how I got to high school. I went to [Senn] High School, and there was a
bus system that ran north and south on Sheridan Road, it did not go east and west. The high
school was east of Lake Michigan, and we were close to Lake Michigan. There were about ten
of us girls, we looked like the Tudor Ville Taxi. We’d pile into this taxi, ten cents apiece, with
our books. And if you weren’t there on time, you didn’t get the ride. So you were there on time.
And that’s how we got to school in the morning. If you had an eight o’clock class or homeroom,
you needed to be there early. Now coming home was a different thing. We all bought bus
tickets. The bus tickets were ten cents apiece but money was scarce, this was still in the
Depression. So if you could, you tried to walk home. I lived about twenty-eight blocks from
[Senn] High School, and when the wind wasn’t too bad, or the snow wasn’t too bad, I walked
home. I had a gorgeous figure. (laughs) I mean, you just didn’t get rides.
(17:42)
EL: My folks had a car but it sat on the street most of the time. We didn’t have a garage. It sat
on the street because we didn’t have gas. And so if it was something really important, my father
would take the car out. The problem was if you let the car sit and you didn’t use it, the battery
went out. So you had those things which were definitely a nuisance. Um, the school that I went
to had over five thousand students in it. My graduating class was over eight hundred. That’s
about the size of East Grand Rapids, you know.
JS: Yep.
(18:34)
�EL: So, um, we had an ROTC, which was very very active. I was involved in an international
relations class, which took me to the University of Chicago several times a month, along with
other students from the city, and we were focused on the issues that the country was facing. As a
matter of fact, the way that I got to college was through a scholarship that was given by the long
now-defunct League of Nations. My international relations teacher was very supportive and very
much a guide to all of her students and she had us entering this essay contest. Well, I won first
prize for the eight states of the Midwest. And then I found out, I’ll never forget this, she also
was the sponsor for the debate team, and the debate team used to go to the University of Chicago
and the Council of Foreign Relations.
(19:47)
EL: I was looking through this material last night, my old yearbook. And somebody wrote,
“You’re a swell debater. If you ever decide to run for President, I’ll vote for you instead of
FDR.” (laughter) Now that was another word I saw yesterday. I absolutely don’t ever
remember hearing that word, except in the “Music Man,” there is a line where the music man
talks about “swell’’ and something else. But in my yearbook, that word is all over the place.
You know, you’re swell this, you’re swell that. And I talked to my sister last night and I said, do
you ever remember any of that? She didn’t remember that either.
(20:34)
EL: Now another way that my sister earned money, there were contests sponsored by the
newspapers for kids. And she won a lot of them. What did she win? A dollar. Do you have any
idea what a dollar was at that time to a kid? A dollar, to win a dollar. That was just a huge sum
of money, in the ‘30s and early ‘40s. Everything is disproportionate now, it seems. Another
thing that we did, this is in high school. The Depression is still on. And we didn’t…first of all,
you couldn’t work if you weren’t sixteen. A lot of us lied to get jobs. Because we needed the
money. We needed it to get spending money. We needed it for the bus tickets. We also had
school supplies. Books were supplied by the school system. But there were other things that
you had to buy yourself. Paper, pencils, exam books, this kind of thing. We were very
cognizant of the value of money and, I remember many times, asking my dad if I could have my
allowance and he didn’t have it to give me.
(22:07)
EL: And my sister, of course, was in grade school and she would always manage to get by on
what she had saved from her aluminum foil that he had taken and sold. There was also a period,
now this is going back further, we’re still living in Glen Cove, but it’s the Depression. And one
day a week was sandwich day, in which everybody brought a sandwich to school and these were
collected and given to people who didn’t have anything to eat. I can tell you another thing that I
remember distinctly. You would not do this today. We had a little back entry into the house,
that was sort of a foyer, that you could close off from the rest of the house, but there was a place
to sit. Put your boots on, this kind of thing. And we had people, men, come to the door and
knock at the door and ask if we could spare any food. And my mother would always sit them
down in this room, make them some kind of a sandwich, give them a cup of coffee, and maybe
an extra little piece of something, and they’d be on their way. You know you wouldn’t let
anybody in your house like that today.
�(23:26)
EL: But I remember this. When we got to Chicago, I mean, we had cut back so much by then.
When I say my dad couldn’t give me an allowance at a particular time, things had just gotten
worse. And, we didn’t think of ourselves as porr, though. ‘Cause everybody else was in the
same boat.
JS: Now did your father still have some income, was he employed by anyone?
EL: No, he, that was the other part, that used to drive my mother nuts. He was an inventor.
There was a big table in the living room that he did all of his puttering on. I’ve got a box in the
basement, of all of his patens. He did sell the patens. I mean, but it was erratic. It was erratic.
(24:35)
EL: Oh, the run on the banks. I had to be about ten years old. We were still living in the
suburbs. And I went with my mother to the Hubbard Woods Bank. Hubbard Woods was a little
community between Winnetka and Glen Cove. But it was really the central commercial area for
both Winnetka and Glen Cove. We stood outside. It was so cold, Dr. Smither, it was so cold. I
don’t know…they wouldn’t let you in. I mean, they would let some people in, and then they let
them out. And you didn’t…my mother wanted to withdraw everything she had in the bank. You
didn’t get everything you had. They gave you a percentage. I don’t know what it was. My
mother never put another dime in the bank. She, it was wither under the mattress or under
something. I remember that very distinctly. Because now we are worrying about money.
(25:26)
EL: So I’d look around at these people who are losing their homes, we did not have that.
Somehow we had food to eat and a roof over our head. My father saw to that. But there were no
extras. A movie! My God. We never had any soft drinks at our house either. That was just
because of the cost. And because my mother didn’t believe in drinking all that sugar. An ice
cream cone, if it was your birthday, you got an ice cream cone. So the things we take for granted
today, you can go in a supermarket and just load up on, was just unheard of. Just unheard of.
JS: Something that strikes me a little bit from what you’ve said so far, from a modern
perspective, that at the same that you were not too far above the level of a subsistence level of
existing…
EL: I’m sorry, say that again.
JS: You were not too far above subsistence level of income. I mean, you had food, you had
shelter, but you didn’t have much beyond that, and that’s what we would associate today with
people who were really poor. At the same time that you had that, you were also going to a high
school that had stuff going on, that had some of these clubs and activities. You had opportunities
to go and do things, like take classes at the University of Chicago, so you’re sort of going to an
elite institution, you’re hooking up with people who can do things like find college scholarships.
There’s still an expectation that you can go to college. There’s a lot of things that don’t
necessarily go together with the way that things would work now.
�(27:05)
EL: That’s right.
JS: You went to a big city high school. If you go into a big city high school in Chicago, you
may get into some kind of a program that can help you, but the networks and the connections
don’t work the same way. It’s not as easy to move back and forth.
EL: No. it absolutely isn’t and I’m glad you brought that up, because in addition to going to the
University of Chicago, my real love was art. And that’s one of the things I found last night, and
I thought, oh my god, I’d forgotten all about this. I didn’t know I was that good. I also, while I
was in high school, had a scholarship at the Chicago Art Institute, on Saturday. I wanted to be a
fashion designer. Well… I always knew I was going to college. That was an expectation in my
family. How it was going to be paid for was just a big amorphous question mark. And if I
wanted to go, it was going to be pretty much up to me.
(28:04)
EL: When it came time, you know you start in your junior year, you know how this goes, it’s
been pretty consistent that way. It was this teacher, Henrietta Havemen, who really guided me
and made it possible for me, not to just get a scholarship. I had four scholarships when I
graduated. I had my choice of four years at the University of Illinois, four years at the University
of Chicago, four years at Lawrence College, in Appleton, Wisconsin, and four years at Knox.
Why did I go to Knox? It was a very small school. The whole school was smaller than my
graduating class. Know was the most prestigious scholarship and I didn’t have to work.
Lawrence College would have been a work study. The University of Chicago, my parents would
have never thought of letting me live off campus. You got an apartment there, a family here.
What’s wrong with you? I would have flunked out of school by the first semester. Because
going back and forth on the train, how’m I going to study? Oh my goodness. Be at the library at
night. I wouldn’t have been able to do it.
(29:20)
EL: The University of Illinois, now here’s how economics enters into this. The University of
Illinois was really a party school. Everybody who went to the University of Illinois from [Senn],
joined a sorority or fraternity. I couldn’t afford that. And I didn’t know how I could handle that.
I was smart enough to know that I didn’t know how I could handle that but naïve enough, and
childish enough, to think that mattered. Do you understand what I’m saying? Because you
could go to school without being part of a sorority. Or fraternity. And there are opportunities all
over the place. But I did not see it.
(30:05)
EL: I did very well at Knox. And the University of Michigan was the only place I didn’t get a
scholarship. What happened was when I finally did transfer, my father’s financial position had
changed. So he could help/
JS: Was he doing better, in part because the war created opportunities for inventors?
�EL: Oh, gosh, yes. First of all, before the ball point pen, there was an intermediate pen, with a
cartridge. That was his invention. So that made the world and all difference. The big problem
with pens in the past had been, you have them in your pocket and that rubber sack, that sack rots
and, even a little bit, the ink is all over.
JS: Right.
(30:57)
EL: And he was working with DuPont and with Lucite and with, the plastics were just beginning
to emerge. And he figured out that with pneumatic action, you could fill this pen without having
to have that clip, from that came this cartridge that you could just slip into the pen. And the
locate of the back of a pen point would puncture the cartridge and the ink would flow through it.
If he…my father was an immigrant. He went to the Gymnasium in Germany and he went to
Peter Cooper Union to learn English. His English was horrible. My mother really helped him
get rid of his purple prose. I have some letters that he’s written that would make your hair stand
on end. With his use of the language.
(32:04)
EL: But he was a putterer. And all of his puttering always produced something. Some were
profitable, some were just duds. I never saw this, this is a story I’ve been told. I have the patent
downstairs, with the rest of these patents. Before I was born, he and my mother lived in
Breckenridge, Texas. He had discovered an oil well. He was sort of the last, the tail end of the
rugged individualists, of that time. He built a hotel, called the Seger Hotel, and it had a movie
house. And he invented a talking popcorn machine. In a Rube Goldberg construction that you
just cannot believe. You put your money in, and the thing would pop and out would come your
popcorn. But you had to say a certain something in order for it to do it. To pop the corn. So
these gadgets did not make for a totally orderly life. But it was a creative atmosphere. And both
my sister and I absorbed a lot of that.
(33:26)
EL: I had the point I wanted to make, now where did I go with it?
JS: We’re talking about, you transferring to the University of Michigan.
EL: Oh, yeah. To the University of Michigan. All right. By now, the men are starting to go.
We still had men on campus. But I got a job as student director of the Hillel Foundation. I was
the first female student director of any student organization. I didn’t know what that was going
to lead to, but I did get twenty five dollars a month, which was a very good salary to get. And it
put me in contact with the Catholic Newman Club, and with all of the, um…I forgot what we
called them then. But anyway, all of the organizations that provided the social services support
to veterans. Because we, even at that time, had some veterans that were coming back. They had
been in Europe early, and why they came back would be an individual story. But, we had the GI
Bill. That’s the other thing that we had.
(34:42)
�EL: We have nothing for these guys when they come back here. Absolutely nothing. They’re
not even getting good medical care.
JS: Well, we do have, they do get college tuition and there’s a lot of packages that come with it.
But the, college students usually get help of one kind or another, it’s just, as you mentioned,
there are holes in what’s provided.
EL: Big big holes. Yeah, well, this, everybody knew about the GI Bill. And, I later went back
to the University of Michigan, after I had graduated. Well, because I was trying to get lined up
with this program to go overseas, and in the process I was tutoring for the Political Science
department and I was tutoring returning veterans. Well, that whole thing sort of fell apart,
because I found out my husband was coming home.
(35:41)
EL: But the GI Bill was…everybody looked at this as sort of a magic, open sesame. There’d
never been anything like this. Never. And I’m glad to hear that we are doing something now.
I’m sort of out of that world so I don’t know some of these things. But I think that…as I look
back, from the Depression to the beginning of the war and the war, there’s a cohesiveness of
experience about the whole thing and there’s not the fragmentation that exists today. And this
really, frankly, worries me. There was a cohesiveness in the sense that people really cared about
each other. I don’t have that feeling here now. Everybody’s just rushing around on their own
and it’s like they’re in a hamster cage. You know? Am I making any sense to you, in this
regard?
(36:46)
JS: Well, they’re using a lot of energy and not going anywhere.
EL: That’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. I do not remember my life that way. I walked…when I
first went to Ann Arbor, housing was a problem. Well, it was a problem all during the war. But
when I say it was a problem, I lived in what was known as a League house. It was usually a
widow or a husband, older husband and wife turned their house into a rooming house for
students. And it was off campus and you walked back and forth. You got breakfast and
lunch…no, lunch you got on campus. You got breakfast and dinner. I did not get into a dorm on
campus until my senior year, that’s how long the wait was. We had lots of stories about the
food. I remember one particular place, 1810 University Avenue, we swore that this woman used
her meat rations for herself and her family, and we just got shoe leather. And we didn’t quite
know what to do, so we had a ringleader in our house, and she said, let’s just mix it all up. And
she won’t be able to give it back to us in another disguise. Cause that’s what we were sure she
was doing. And she said, I’ll pour water over it to make sure.
(38:16)
EL: so we were a little mischievous in that way. But food was a problem. It isn’t that you
didn’t get enough. It was that it wasn’t very good. And even fresh vegetables were hard to come
by. I don’t know if you had great big cans, like you can buy now. I can just tell you, the food
was not wonderful. Lunch, we would all gather, I and my friends. And I presume this is what
other people did. At the nearest drugstore or at one of the little restaurants in town. There was a
�period of time when I was having some dental work done, at the dental clinic. And I couldn’t
really eat anything that I had to chew. And there was a restaurant called the “Lamplighter” and I
knew a couple of the guys there, and I remember going in one day and saying, can you make me
runny scrambled eggs, so I can get something to eat that I don’t have to chew. And when they
would see me coming, they’d run into the kitchen and start the eggs because I couldn’t eat
anything else.
(39:42)
EL: But I don’t want to romanticize anything. What I want to say is that all of us, that I knew,
felt that we had an opportunity to be in school. And there were certain restrictions. We all
walked. Nobody had a car. Some people had bicycles but not many. The library was the most
important focal point beyond the classroom. And you had dinner at the dorm or at your house
and you scooted back to the library until the place closed. You didn’t worry about whether you
were walking alone or walking in pairs. But you usually did try to go with somebody. There
weren’t any extras. And if there were, it was an occasion. There weren’t any of the
communication distractions that we have today. None, whatsoever. If somebody got a long
distance phone call, and this has happened to me. I was not yet engaged to my husband, but he
called me from Hobbs, New Mexico. Well, I wasn’t at the house at the time. And somebody
went to the library to see if they could find me, I don’t know whether they thought he was going
to stay on the line or not. But anyway, I came back. I guess he said he’d call back. I came to
get this phone call. And the next day in the Michigan Daily, who is the co-ed who gets a long
distance call from Hobbs, New Mexico?
(41:24)
EL: Because one of the writers for the paper lived in the house that I lived in. So this was a big
event. As a matter of fact, when I met my husband, I met him here, on a blind date, because my
grandparents lived here, and I had come to take care of my grandmother because she was sick
and I was the oldest grandchild and I was her favorite…
JS: So this gives us the Michigan connection…
EL: That’s right.
JS: Why the University of Michigan goes into the mix.
EL: That’s right. So I was…I have a younger aunt. I have two living aunts. I will be 85 in
April. I have one living aunt that just turned 95 and one that just turned 90. The one who was
90, husband was overseas and women didn’t call men, no matter what. And she wanted to get a
date and she didn’t care how and I was the ploy. So she fixed up this date for me. And I told
my…after I came back to Chicago, to get ready to go back to Ann Arbor, I told my folks that I
met this really neat guy from Grand Rapids but I was never going to live in Grand Rapids,
Michigan.
(42:41)
EL: So I’m out shopping for some things that I need for school, and I come home and my
mother is just a basket case. I have gotten a long distance call from Grand Rapids, Michigan and
�he wants you to call him back. You’re not gonna call him back are you? I mean, this is the
social mores. In the first place, you didn’t…a long distance call meant a death or a crisis. You
just didn’t make a long distance call. So I didn’t call him back. He called me back. And then, I
was going for, that weekend, to get ready for school. Well, it was also the Michigan-Michigan
State game. He had gone to Michigan State. So then we met in Ann Arbor. He drove in from
Grand Rapids and I took the train. So that’s how all of that happened and how I wound up in
Grand Rapids, Michigan.
(43:50)
JS: Okay. Now, was he older than you?
EL: Yes. He was already working. He was out of school. He enlisted in the Air Force, because
he wanted to be sure to get what he wanted, and he wound up as a captain of a B-17.
JS: Was he flying in Europe or the Pacific?
EL: No. Europe. Everything moved fast. We were actually married while I was still in school,
with the understanding that I was going to finish. I had a semester to go. And after that summer,
he went back overseas. So that part of the story is a thousand times repeated. But I did finish
school. A lot of girls who got married, did not finish school. And then later on, this tidal wave
began, and I was very much involved in that. Of women going back to school, to finish
unfinished degrees. And to find out who am I, now that I’m no longer somebodies mommy or
somebodies wife.
(45:12)
EL: Norbert Ruby was president of Aquinas at the time. And I had been hired by Michigan
State to something for women. They didn’t know what, they didn’t have a clue. They just didn’t
want to be sued, the way that U of M had been sued for violating women’s civil rights laws. And
they wanted a visible woman. Well, I had a visible position. I had a cubby-hole office that was
on the way to the johns. (laughter) I could never close the door, ‘cause I didn’t have a door.
But then, my life really did begin to change. At that point, I was working for MSU as their
coordinator of community relations. And I was very much involved in the fabric of the
community. My kids were growing up. And I worked with Aquinas because they had the only
game in town. They had the ENCORE program. And with Michigan State, and the U of M, and
Western, and Eastern, what was the other. Oakland. Put on a conference called “The Changing
Consciousness of American Women.”
(46:31)
EL: It was more than anybody, including myself, expected to have happen.
JS: What year was that?
EL: This was 1972. It hit a raw nerve. You could not put one more body into the allotted room
at the Wenke Center. It wasn’t called the Wenke Center then, the name escapes me right now.
But it was the first time that a collaborative enterprise had taken place. In fact, afterwards, I was
approached by somebody, not very bright idea-ed, I didn’t think, who said, well, what’s a big
�state like Michigan State doing with a little po-dunk school like Aquinas? I said, well, they had
the real estate. We had the program, but they had the real estate.
(47:28)
EL: Grand Valley was just getting started. And by the way, I wanted to tell you, and that was
one of my assessments. He had a Catholic school. We had a Christian Reformed School, a
Baptist school. We didn’t have a non-sectarian school in this town. And we needed that. And
when Grand Valley finally got launched, it had the growing pains I believe any new institution
had.
JS: It had some growing pains that went beyond the norm, but that’s something else.
EL: Well, yeah. But it was also the atmosphere in which it was trying to grow. I mean, it was
starting from the bottom up. But it’s made a huge contribution. I don’t think what people
understand, I don’t think they understand it at all, is that institutional change does not happen
with a snap of the finger. It takes time. Development takes time. For myself, at this point, I
began to see, gosh, I have to go back to school. There’s some things I need to learn to do.
(48:43)
JS: Now at this point, what combination of degrees did you have?
EL: I had a half-finished Masters degree. Because you had to have that in order to teach at JC.
And I had been teaching at JC. So, I finished that. My oldest daughter was sixteen. She’d been
telling me for a whole year how much better she could do things anyway, so I said all right, you
stay home and take care of things and I’m going to go to summer school and I’m going to finish
this thing up.
JS: Now what was this degree in?
EL: I got a Masters degree in History and English. These were loose ends, because I had a lot of
this stuff. But the teaching certificate was separate. So I got both of those. In other words, I put
my house in order.
(49:38)
EL: And then, this whole field of development, the relationship between adult education and
adult development was just beginning. The U of M was just starting with a fledgling program.
In fact, Michigan State had sent me to Wayne, for some weekend classes on adult development
and counseling. I told my husband I was going to become a counselor, but then I needed to
know, there was stuff I needed to know. And as a field, this was just beginning. There wasn’t
that much out there. Michigan State developed, began developing a program on Human
Ecology, I think it was called. And you really had to leave Grand Rapids in order to get any of
this. We did not have it here. I think Grand Rapids has always had good basics, but beyond that.
I think some of that’s changing now with Grand Valley.
�JS: Bit by bit. But Grand Valley is still not a place that has much in the way of doctoral
programs, even is limited at the graduate level. So they cover many fields and they have a lot of
connections, and it’s expanding, but it’s still not yet at a level where they go beyond basics.
(51:07)
EL: No, but the Seidman School of Business is probably the most advanced as far as getting to
some of the next levels. Well, I did go back and now I’m no longer working for MSU. I just
couldn’t do it all. First of all, my husband got sick. There were just a lot of family problems.
And you don’t go out and get a social worker, you have to be your own social worker, you know.
So in the course of all this, though, as I look back at the changes that have taken place, and the
changes that have taken place for me, and the larger system and how it impacts us, I’m
wondering how ready are many of us to cope with what lies ahead. I mean, there’s really a
shortage of certain skills.
(52:10)
EL: One of the first things I did when I was hired by Michigan State, and this will give you a bit
of a perspective, was to sit in on some discussions at St. Mary’s. The State of Michigan
legislature made a wise decision. They were not gonna build any more institutions. They
wanted to further advance education, to utilize the resources of community hospitals. In other
words, the whole concept of community health care was bursting on the scene, but there weren’t
any resources. And so I sat in on the interview skill training sessions. And that’s the first time a
television was used, in any kind of training.
(53:00)
EL: So now we’ve got the [unclear] building. We’ve got what Peter Cook has done. We’ve got
all of these things on this Michigan Mile. That’s how long it takes. This was in the early ‘70s.
Jim, this was not even in the talking stages, this was just discussion, coffee cup discussion. So I
say to myself, oh, and the other thing that we didn’t have anything in, was listening skills. I
wasn’t very good at it myself. I went to Oakland University, go through some of Eleanor
Driver’s work, and I took people, women from Grand Rapids. I figured if this is gonna happen,
there’s gotta be support. And Jane [Eidema], Jean [McKeon], whose no longer living, Hillary
[Snite], whose no longer living, I mean there were a lot of good women who volunteered a lot of
time, that helped to make the Women’s Resource Center possible. Because, ultimately, that’s
what I did to fulfill my charge from MSU.
(54:28)
EL: But there was, what I began to sense, was that the cohesiveness of this community was
beginning to break down. And, because I’m not in the thick of things right now, anymore, I do
see certain things that are happening, and they’re calling it partnering. We used to just call it
collaboration, or cooperation, so some of these concepts are becoming workable, I think that’s
what I want to say. But I am amazed at how little understanding there is historically of the
course that we’ve all traveled in this time. I remember when Cathy, this is my oldest daughter,
was at Sarah Lawrence and she came home at spring vacation and she wanted to watch me teach.
I was teaching at JC at that time, this was in the late ‘60s. And I had to teach, there were two
books I had, one was a short story by Katherine Ann Porter, “The Flowering Judas.” And the
other was her novel, “Ship of Fools.”
�(55:48)
EL: I couldn’t get a rise out of my class. And I was pretty good at this. Because I didn’t lecture,
I was more interested in the give and take. And so we went to lunch, cause I had another class
that afternoon. And I apologized to her because it was such a flat, dull class. She said, Mom,
you don’t understand. Nobody knows about the Depression. Because these were all stories that
emanated out of events from the Depression. And, so now, here we are and more learned people
than I, I am sure, are asking, where do we go from here? And how do we get there? Because
how are people prepared? Now, you’ve got to be seeing some of this.
(56:48)
JS: Sure.
EL: You know, at Grand Valley. Because some of the lecture courses that you’re doing, at
Loosmore, for instance, reflect these concerns. But that’s a long way from the Depression and
the war. But it’s really one big continuum.
(57:10)
JS: I’d like to pull back to a couple of episodes from earlier there. You had mentioned that you
had done some Red Cross volunteering. When you were in high school and then college, or at
both colleges.
EL: Right.
JS: What kind of work did you do and how did that…
EL: Well, I worked in the laundry, folding linens. And I did what all of the volunteers did, to
relieve the nurses. Working in the laundry meant folding things, getting them into the right stalls
for the right floors. The shifts were never very long, four hours at the most. Um, I’m trying to
think what else I did. I did take our Red Cross First Aid course. But I think an awful lot of us
did that.
JS: Now the volunteering, was that done in hospitals or clinics?
EL: No, it was in the hospital. At U of M Hosptial. At Knox, what was the hospital called? It
was a small hospital. In high school, you see, transportation was a problem. The first thing we
did, I say we because, you know, girls clan together. We took Red Cross Survival classes
together. I don’t think I went to any hospitals. You would have had to go downtown, and that
would be a really big deal.
(58:46)
EL: If you lived down in the south part of the city, maybe for the hospitals at that end of the city
but on the north side of the city, you’d be going to Evanston. And transportation would be a
problem.
JS: Well did the El run up to Evanston at that point?
�EL: Oh, the El went everywhere. I could tell you another story. There was no theater anywhere
along the north shore, except in an area which was called no man’s land. Which was Tiagra de
Larga. And you had to go by train or you had to go by car. All right, now this is a problem. We
had not yet moved into the city. I, and a couple of my girlfriends wanted to see a movie there.
You didn’t ask your parents to take you cause they weren’t going to take you. So we figured out,
we had enough money for a bag of popcorn, for the price of a movie, and one way on the North
Shore. Now what do you suppose these twelve year old nuts did? We walked the railroad ties
from Hubbard Woods to Tiagra de Larga. And we had a train ride back. You’d kill a kid if they
did something like that today.
(1:00:04)
JS: I have to pause us right now, to change the tape. All right, now you were telling us the story
of you and your friends, you basically walked along the railroad tracks to get to a movie theater.
EL: That’s right. We walked along railroad ties to get to Tiagra de Larga. Well, it was a
straight line. We knew where we were going. But money was a problem. So we figured out
exactly how much it cost and we were afraid that when we came out, it might be twilight, so we
needed to take a train back. And that we thought was rather judicious of us. I’m sure we didn’t
use that word, but that was how we thought about ourselves. I think there was very little fear,
growing up. After all, if my mother fed people at the back door, there was a certain…I don’t
think that I grew up in denial. Because I knew that we didn’t have any money. And I knew that
things were different.
(1:01:25)
EL: First of all, we had had a maid and we didn’t have a maid anymore. And I had to do more.
My sister was seven years younger and she couldn’t do much, but we all had to kind of pitch in.
That was before we moved into the city. When we moved into the city, we really had to move
into the city because we just couldn’t afford to heat the house. It was as simple as that. And we
certainly didn’t have a maid in the city. Not that people in the city didn’t have maids but we
couldn’t afford it. In today’s terms, you would say we were poor. But we never thought of
ourselves as poor. We never thought of ourselves as poor.
(1:02:09)
EL: In order to, my first paying job was at the Kraft Cheese Company, and I had to ride the
elevator, the El to get to work there. And I’ll be quite honest with you, I lied to get the job. I
wasn’t sixteen but I couldn’t get a job and I had to have a job. But this job I could get. I was
about fifteen and a half. And I looked, you know, like I was sixteen. And I think riding the El, I
saw parts of Chicago that I was not aware of before. And I was perhaps oblivious and blind to.
My folks never really…they sort of fostered this independence in both my sister and me. There
wasn’t really a lot of talk about it. It had to do with being self-reliant, that’s all.
(1:03:10)
EL: I worked in the premium department of Kraft Cheese Company, which meant that I sent out
gimmicks, washcloths and that sort of thing. There were a lot of gimmicks that were employed
during the Depression. It’s a lot like today, only on a smaller, more practical scale. And I made
�$15 a week. I pay my home health aide $15 an hour. So that’s another part of the change. I
don’t really understand the economics of how we have gotten to this point in inflation. I really
don’t. It seems like the more we have of everything, the more expensive everything becomes.
And we are the only society, as far as I can see, who has been wealthy enough to afford outside
storage units for our stuff. So, the society couldn’t afford that before.
(1:04:24)
JS: We keep making our houses bigger and bigger cause we don’t have room for all of that stuff.
EL: That’s right. And what are we going to do? God, my sister and I shared a closet, we shared
a bedroom that wasn’t much bigger, than the closet. And there was a table in there that I used as
my desk to do my homework. And we managed. But we also weren’t running about all the
time. Which I think is another factor in this fragmentation that goes on. I do not feel that I was
deprived as a kid growing up. And I said, I did not feel that we were poor. We just didn’t have
any money. Neither did anybody else.
(1:05:29)
EL: But this I will tell you. I had a friend by the name of Betty Ann Whittaker. Whose, at the
height of the Depression, her father jumped off the Wrigley Building. In order to collect the
insurance because it was a big Catholic family and he didn’t know what he was going to do.
That marked me. I was just…when this happened, I was just in a daze afterward. I remember
saying to my father, “daddy, you wouldn’t do anything like that, would you?” I mean, that was
the most traumatic event of the Depression for me personally, as a child. We still lived in Glen
Cove and they lived not far from us.
(1:06:21)
EL: And there’s one other thing I would add. There was a colored family that lived about two
blocks from me. He was a detective with the police force in Chicago and her mother was an RN.
And Ann Chisholm was her name. And nobody ever treated her…it was as if we were all just
the same. Now whether it was because there was only one black family in a town of six
thousand, I don’t know. But I never had any of the feelings or experiences that I later came to
know, living in Chicago.
(1:07:04)
EL: One other thing, we lived kitty corner across from Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis. Now
do you know who that was? The baseball commissioner.
JS: Red Sox and all that, yep.
EL: And he had a granddaughter, Sue Landis, who was in my class. And Amelia Earhart, before
she went on that fatal flight, was there on a visit. I was invited to come over and meet her. So
that was…I didn’t really know what that meant until I was older. But those were some of the
experiences of my childhood, I think, that made me feel, I’m not poor. We just don’t have any
money.
JS: You knew all these people. You could do all these different things.
�EL: Right. Right.
JS: If all kind of went together.
(1:08:11)
EL: Right. When we moved into Chicago, down the street from us, 832 Gunnison, was a doctor
and his son was in my class. And at that time, what was I? Sixteen, seventeen. I did not know
that doctors made a lot of money. I mean, we were all living on the same street. Our fathers all
parked the cars on the street cause there were no garages. So there was a leveling and a
commonality, but it was not coarse. There’s a crudeness that’s come into our culture now. Part
of it I think is television. One night, I thought, I just got to do this. I jut have to do this to prove
this to myself. I don’t have cable but I’m flipping channels and I thought, oh my god, every one
of these is the same. It’s a formula. It builds up attention. There’s guns in there some place.
And then the denouement. I think that this has had a definite impact, on our kids especially.
(1:09:15)
EL: But I feel the period of the Depression was one of the most tough, trying times for this
culture. And I don’t care what people who didn’t like Franklin Roosevelt had to say, this man
was a leader. He was a leader in the sense that he provided an outlet for energy and to fill needs
that the country needed. I mean, this idiotic thing that we’re doing right now, giving everybody
six or seven hundred dollars. You can’t mount a public works program with the snap of a finger
but that’s what ought to be in the planning, in the pipeline right now. So by the time spring
comes around, people can be put to work on the roads. Because our roads here in Michigan are
just god-awful.
(1:10:07)
JS: Even the President thought so. George W. Bush, on one of his first campaign tours through
Michigan was on a bus tour, and his comment was “You people should fix your roads.”
EL: Oh, god. (laughs) Oh, my lord, we need to fix our roads is right. I think we’ve got so
much to do now. And where do we start. And now we’ve got this absolutely massive
gargantuan debt. And I believe that what this administration has done is no different than Enron.
The Iraq war is off budget. That’s how Enron did what they did. I mean, I don’t understand why
people don’t see this. And I listen to people belabor the press. C’mon, it’s not the press. It’s
what else are reading? What are you thinking about? As I said, I’m going to be 85. I’m at this
end of the stage. Not at this end anymore. And so I think I have a perspective on what’s gone
on.
(1:11:26)
JS: And it’s also a perspective that we’re losing track of. Thirty, forty years ago, it was normal
to have adults who remembered the period of the Depression as an experience. And they carried
that and the war memory with them, and they, when I was growing up in the ‘60s, I sort of took
it for granted that, you know, those people would have been in the war, if they were a certain
age. Or would have been in the Depression and that sort of leaves these marks here and there.
And you understand that things are different than they were. You sort of take it for granted, but
�we’ve gone from that to know the people who remember and tell the stories are going. And the
stories go with them. So that’s why we’re doing this. Now I do want to get back to other pieces
of things that you brought up earlier. One of them was, that as the war ended, you did training
that would have made you a civilian worker with the [unclear].
(1:12:20)
EL: Oh, all right. The University of Michigan Political Science department has always had an
outstanding reputation. Outstanding scholars from the U of M have wound up in government
one way or another. Bill Hager, the Department of Economics. James K. Polluck, the
Department of Political Science. He was involved, believe it or not, he was a librarian for the
Versailles Treaty, when he was a young man. Now, I come along and I’m in one of his classes.
And as the war was winding down, there was going to be a need for a civilian government. And
the idea was to use a lot of the bright students, graduate students or graduated students. They
didn’t necessarily have to have PhD’s. So I was invited to be one of those. But these were the
conditions. If you went, you were there for two years, period. The only reason that you could
get home was if there was a death in the family. But there was no swift way to get home.
(1:13:29)
EL: Everything was a slow boat to China, Jim. So I had the passport, I did everything I was
supposed to do. I did not have a foreign language but that was not going to be a problem,
because I would be working in an area where I would be using English. And then…and I hadn’t
heard from my husband for some time. Then I got word that he was coming home. Now I’m
going to be there and he’s going to be here. I hadn’t seen him in a while. I didn’t even know if
we were still husband and wife. So I had to get myself out of this and that was not easy. But I
did get myself out it so I did not have that experience.
(1:14:14)
JS: Now, did you have any kind of training or preparation for this, before then?
EL: Oh, yes. I was a political science major. I had done a great deal of comparative analysis in
European governments, European history. And we had seminars, I think you would call them.
There must have been about twenty-five of us. I don’t know if that many actually went, because
some people dropped out before, or en-route. But these seminars were above and beyond any
classwork that we had to do. And then there’s always the grease the skids kind of thing, you
know. I was community ambassador to Grand Rapids from a sister city, Omihachiman, in Japan,
in 1991. And the requirement for that was every other weekend at Michigan State, learning
some ways and customs, and which good morning you say at what time. But, again, if you don’t
continue to use the little that you learn, you lose it right away.
(1:15:29)
EL: But there was a great deal of discussion about the postwar possibilities. And the need to
turn things over as quickly as possible. I don’t think at that time the American government
wanted to stay as an army of occupation. At all. They just wanted to get home. I think a lot of
those experiences are what Tom Brokaw wrote about in “The Greatest Generation.” These guys,
these people, they didn’t see themselves as exceptional heroes. They had a job to do and darn it,
they were going to do it. And they did it. We were coming over, as extra hands of the
�government, that the government was not going to have to pay a lot for. Because the experience
was going to be priceless and invaluable.
JS: Now what, was there a specific kind of work that you were training for? Did you know what
they were going to have you do when they sent you over there?
(1:16:32)
EL: I didn’t really. Administrative work. You know, that can really be a garbage can term. I
could have been typing letters, I could have…I don’t know. Don’t think any of us really knew,
because some of these things happened so fast. And I don’t think that…I think that things were
worked out more thoughtfully then, than they have been now, say, in terms of Iraq. I think I’ll
give you that. But I don’t think we had a job description. In fact, I know we didn’t have a job
description. It was much like when I was hired by MSU. You write your job description. I
mean, that was part of my job, to write my job description. Of course, the job changed every
Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I wasn’t exactly sure what the job was. But I wanted to go. I
wanted to go. I had an ulterior motive, obviously. So that was the story there. Now what else
do you want to back up? That I can refresh my memory on.
(1:17:53)
JS: Can you fill in a little bit on your husband career. He was a pilot. Was he flying bombers
over Germany?
EL: B-17 pilot. Yes, but…this is another story. Paul was a pilot and he was captain of a B-17,
and that’s a huge investment, but that isn’t what he really did. I don’t know the official title. But
it was really Secret Service. I learned about this after we came back to Grand Rapids and his
mother told us that there had been government people, she had another name, what did she call
them? Snooping around. They were trying to find out about him and his family. And there is
something in the Michigan Room about them. But he was in charge of some secret missions.
And I never really knew what they were, and I remember when we were still in this country, and
he’d tell me, Ï’m going to go out and watch the burning of secret documents.” That’s all he could
tell me.
(1:19:04)
EL: And either I didn’t press him enough or I was too naïve or I thought he was kidding, but he
did go out. He was gone. He would be gone for several hours. And I never really knew what it
was. So, and then, when the war ended, he was still in this for maybe about four years
afterwards. I mean, he would go to these meetings and not talk about it. He was very closedmouth in that way. So he was good for that job.
JS: Now was this, as far as you could tell, the kind of work he was doing throughout his military
career, or did he have a phase where he was flying and that kind of thing?
(1:19:51)
EL: No, he was flying but that was to make it look good. That was to make it look good. No,
he was in charge of, in Germany…he was in England and he was in Germany. In Germany, he
was in charge of black troops. In England, he was, you know, a B-17 pilot. He was the captain
�of the crew. But you have to…this much I do know. This much I do know. We had great
difficulty getting intelligence. Terrible difficulty. Just a minute, I have to think of it. The
process of situation analysis grew out of World War II. In which small pieces of seemingly
unimportant pieces of information would be studied and put together in order to get the picture.
You might…somebody might pick up some flyers, and get that to a troop or an American soldier
but that person would be in disguise. There was just no way to get intelligence behind the
German lines.
(1:21:18)
EL: And behind the Italian lines, either. So there were certain people that were trained in what
would later become known as situation analysis. You must have come across some of this
somewhere. Where they took different pieces of things and they had confabs about whether it
meant this, it mean this, or it meant this. And if it meant this, then it meant this was the option,
or this was the option. But then if it didn’t mean this, what were the options over here. That’s
the best way I can describe it. And I think the whole notion of situation analysis later came to be
used in this country. For various things.
JS: Sure. And it’s a lot of how they deal with international intelligence issues and so forth. Of
course, one ingredient of that, and this was true then, was aerial reconnaissance.
EL: Right.
JS: They used bombers that were basically for photography and they did things like fly secret
missions that would fly as far as an airstrip in Yugoslavia, held by the partisans. Recently one of
the guys on the flight,who would be manning the camera, recounted being made more difficult
by getting the wrong fuel there and having to crash land over Spain, of all places. But anyway,
the point was, that there was aerial reconnaissance that went on. It was done separately. The
people who went on those missions got all the background checks and so on, so whether he was
doing that or some other part of the operation, that kind of thing went. And they were doing that
in part because they didn’t have any way of getting stuff from behind the German lines.
(1:23:00)
EL: We didn’t have, no way at all. Now my husband’s brother, who is now a physiatrist, he is
still living, he was very small. My husband was a full, almost six feet. But Seamore was the tail
gunner on the alternate to the Enola Gay. And I have pictures of him when he came home on a
leave, we were in Everett, Washington at that time, it was before Paul was now going back
overseas. And I mean, he looks like a ghost. He looks like an absolute ghost. The ability to get
intelligence out of Japan was even worse than the ability to get intelligence behind the lines in
Germany.
(1:23:56)
EL: And you’re right about the reconnaissance flights, because I do remember, very definitely, it
was about the only thing that I heard, because he never talked about it, was that there was a lot of
filming. And I thought, what are they filming? They got all of this blowing up everything. How
can they film anything, you know? Now, with drones and this sort of thing.
�JS: Drones and satellites.
EL: Satellites, yeah. But you see, we didn’t have any of that stuff. And again, I don’t think
people realize this. And then I raised another question, you asked me about this. With all the
resources going into this kind of highly technical, and very much needed process, then there are
resources that can’t go into taking care of basic human needs and this its society.
(1:24:57)
JS: It’s certainly an issue with spending money going to Iraq.
EL: That’s right. That’s right, that’s right. And then you remember, when the war ended, we
had a huge backlog of needs and desires. But we also had a huge backlog of money, because the
patriotic thing to do throughout it all was to buy war bonds. And people had this and they were
maturing. Why don’t we have war bonds and things with this war?
JS: Weren’t we told to fight terrorists by going out and buying television sets? Well, a lot of
things are different, and certainly one of the things about the second World War in particular and
the Depression before it, is that it affected the entire country and the entire population in ways
that nothing really has done since. In Korea and Vietnam, there was still a draft and they were
expensive and things hit home in certain ways more than things after that have, but still, only
certain parts of the population got directly caught up in it.
(1:26:01)
JS: And today, for most people, unless they are military families, they’re compartmentalized
from it. And we created a society that works that way.
EL: Yeah, but I think we’re paying a price for it.
JS: Sure. We’re probably in a war because of that. Or we may be in a war because of that,
because people didn’t understand what war’s were like. Or what gets us there. But now I’m
giving opinion. And I’m supposed to be doing the interviewing, so I think, to sort of look back
on that time of your life for a second, from the mid 1930s, as you’re really becoming aware of
how the world works and what life is like and how hard it can be. Sometime between that and
the war years, how do you think just the process of living through that and finding your way
through that, how do you think it shaped the course of your life? Or how you look at thing now?
You talked about a lot of those things, but if you could pull that together a little bit.
(1:26:59)
EL: Okay. Well, let me just say, that one of the things that took place in the ‘30s, was the
Century of Progress, in Chicago. At the World’s Fair. And, it was both an event and a forecast.
I have always had an immensely curious mind. And very aware of what’s going on around me
and wanting to try to understand it. I spent a lot of time at the Century of Progress. In fact, I
have some things I could probably bring up to you. That I came across yesterday. And the
imagination of looking at places, the Japanese exhibit, the Chinese exhibit, the Swedish exhibit.
This is not the one in New York, Trial in a Parable, which came along later. This was much
more like what I think the Columbia Exposition must have been like.
�(1:28:13)
EL: It was a garnering together of where we, of all the things that had taken place since the turn
of the century. All of the inventions. All of the changes. And possibilities, and what the impact
of that could be. Now, to tie this in with the question that you asked. Later on, when I began to
go back to school, I had all but the dissertation, cause that’s when my husband got sick and I,
you know. You can’t write a dissertation with one hand tied behind your back. ABD, that’s me.
I became very interested in the forces of personality and if it’s the personality’s impact on the
culture or the culture’s impact on the personality. Is this just a chicken and the egg thing, or is
there a dynamic there that can tell us something?
(1:29:22)
EL: More and more my focus, for myself, became change and its dynamics and its impact and
what does it mean. The most concrete example is if the furniture wears out, and if you don’t
replace anything, it’s all comfortably shabby. But if you replace one chair or one pillow, the
whole rest of it looks like hell. And so, what does this mean for how things interface in the face
of change? How is change impacting us? A group of women and I got together, this was right
after I had my heart attack in ’03, and we began to meet on a monthly basis, to talk about the
dynamics of change, which we were all feeling. On a personal level, on a community level, and
on a awareness, a world level, really.
(1:30:30)
EL: And that remains with me. And I’m very much interested in this. And I don’t know if it’s
my imagination or if the data will support the fact, but I think there is a characterogical change
that has taken place in this country. I don’t know that much about it, in-depth. I used a number
of books with this group. One was a book written by an Indian woman, called “Nectar in the
Sieve.” Are you familiar with it? Well, it’s a story of a very poor Indian town. From our point
of view, an Indian village. But it’s cohesive, it hangs together. Along come the British and they
set up a factory to make cotton cloth. And they think they’re doing a wonderful thing by
providing jobs for these people. Well, if they work three days, that’s more money than they get
in a month, working in their whatever they were working in in their village. So the British call
them lazy, because they didn’t want to work around the clock. Every day. Every week. And the
village people, meanwhile, have they’re whole economy and their dynamic nature of their village
disrupted. And the end result is that they wind up as beggars on the street in Calcutta, or some,
one of the big cities.
(1:32:12)
EL: Now, is that what change is all about? I think that has relevance for where we are right
now. For our society. So that is, um…I don’t know if that answers your question or not.
JS: I think it’s a good answer.
EL: But I think that, oh what are the latest books? “The Tipping Point” and there’s another one.
“The Black Swan.” There are points of intersection that must have been going on before that we
weren’t aware of, because we didn’t know how to be aware of it. And I suspect that there may
be a growing awareness on the part of some people, about this whole notion of the tipping point.
�There’s something else, where you’re making the decision on the instant. There’s a book that
was written about it and a title, and I can’t think of it. But everything seems to be accelerated.
(1:33:34)
JS: And that is something you see as you study world history. One thing that we do now more
than we used to is we look at the history of the whole world and we look at all the intersections
between peoples and cultures and we start to look at it from different points of view and not just
our own. And as you do that, you see pictures like the one you’ve told of, of the Indian village
where there are all kinds of consequences to change and interaction. And in part, with
technology, things just do go faster. And a lot of things are sped up.
(1:34:03)
EL: James Gleick wrote a book called, “Faster, Faster.” And I’m reading one right now,
“Breathing Space.” I started with the chapter on packrat-ism, because that’s me. (laughter)
That’s me. But I am fascinated by these aspects of our lives. I think a recent article in the paper
set me on my heels. And that is, somebody’s done a study comparing health and happiness,
between this country and Britain and a couple of European countries, and we don’t come out so
well. You know, and we think we’re the cat’s meow and everything. We’re just not. And we’re
not looking at ourselves. We’re riding on our past glories. And that does worry me. I’ve got a
couple of grandsons. One is an artist. He’s a good artist. He graduated with a degree in music
from MSU. But he’s not using it. He’s selling his paintings over the internet. I don’t know if
he’s making a living or not. But I hear that he may teach, get a job teaching English as a second
language. When I spoke with his mother, she told me this. I was, where does he come off doing
that?
(1:35:32)
EL: You know. The other one is a quality engineer for Ticketmaster. And he’s got a mind like
a trip hammer. I remember a few years ago, I had called him. He told me to call him and I was,
how can I tell them at the office to call his grandmother? He was in Honolulu, he was in Hawaii.
Why was he there? Ticketmaster bought up a whole series a small operations and they sent Sean
out there to integrate them into the system. And I thought, god, he’s just a pipsqueak and he’s
doing this. And I don’t even know how to understand what he’s talking about. Now, these are
disconnects. Between generations, but also between large segments of society.
(1:36:25)
EL: What do you think about this election right now? I mean, I think if you listen to Obama, he
is lighting fires. But he hasn’t said anything. Now, the question is, is it better to light the fires
and release the energy and then harness the energy, or is it better to do what Clinton is doing,
being an expert on absolutely everything and spell out everything? She’s losing. She’s losing
people right now. And then when you look at Huckabee. I am just flabbergasted by this. I
mean, this is the “Music Man,” 2008-style. And we’ve got such a concentration of these kinds of
minds. I worry with that where we are right now, that society could implode.
(1:37:30)
EL: Or maybe I’m just being pessimistic. But that’s the way I’m feeling right now, about the
way things are. How are we going to endure the next few months? Until we get some change.
�Cause I think it has to change. It has to change. I will never forget sitting in a sessions with a
bunch of people and Vern Ehlers, before we had gotten into the war. And Vern had written a
letter, he wasn’t so keen on the war at that time. And he went around the room and he wanted
everybody’s input. There were about fifty five of us there. I was the last one to speak. And I
said, it will become Armageddon, it will bankrupt us, and we’ll become Sparta. Some woman in
the room says, what? We’re going to have to move to Sparta, Michigan?
(1:38:35)
EL: Now, what does that tell you about the mentality?
JS: It means you’ve got a broader world view than some of the people in the crowd.
EL: Well, that may be, but I think that it’s terrible that we are unable to think and see this way.
It’s not “see it my way or the highway.” It’s to see what the reality is. We just don’t see what the
reality is. And frankly, I like Huckabee, but he scares me. Because of what he can do. And he
doesn’t have Mitt Romney’s money. Now, my other daughter lives in Massachusetts, and I says,
honey, what kind of governor was he? And she said, oh mom, he was just not so great. He was
a big blowhard, she thought. Well, she is…that’s Martha, that’s all. But, no, he did not…I think
what he represents, is long gone. It’s capitalism that isn’t working anymore, for most people.
(1:39:26)
EL: I mean, where we are right now…what was the system? Not mercantilism, it preceded
mercantilism. It’s when the lord of the manor had all the serfs working for him.
JS: Ah, feudalism.
EL: Feudalism, thank you.
JS: So, you’ve got reverse Marxism going on.
EL: Yeah. But nobody understands it. So if they don’t understand…one of the things that I
learned early on, in terms of change, is that one of the reasons that solutions fail so often, they’re
well-intention and they have resources behind them, but the original conceptualization is too
small for the size of the problem. Some of the variables are just not seen. There’s no vision to
see them.
(1:40:22)
EL: And that’s where I think we are right now. And I think we’re in a big struggle to put this all
back together. My sister who lives in California, she wasn’t born there, but she lives in
California, and she’s caught up in a world that’s its own little world and it’s gonna hang on for a
while longer, but it can’t last. It’s the whole Countrywide (mortgage) thing, and these are huge
houses. Expensive houses. How are they going to sustain themselves? Ever upward and
outward growth? How can you tell me, we’re already in all this debt, and he says, go out and
spend money. Now how does that add up. It doesn’t.
(1:41:16)
�EL: It’s like Katherine Ann Porter’s “Ship of Fools,” right there before your eyes but you can’t
see it.
JS: And the real question now is going to be, what do we wind up doing with it? Well, I think
that that’s actually a good concluding point for the interview. And I want to thank you for taking
the time to talk to me today.
EL: Well, I hope I didn’t bore you.
JS: Certainly not.
(1:41:37)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LevinE
Title
A name given to the resource
Levin, Estelle (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Levin, Estelle
Description
An account of the resource
Estelle Levin grew up in the Chicago area during the Great Depression and attended college during World War II. She provides detailed descriptions of life during the Depression and on the Home Front during the war years, as well as on her working career and the development of social services for women in the decades after the war.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-02-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8962510c91ea00c2c96b55773334843d.mp4
abee99fca8cb4e9ee454d84c32f7ffea
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6ac3b1d69f1d5edc06973f027946d6b8.pdf
344d55fc45724e7b44ab3f05450dc471
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Quincy Leslie
(00:28:00)
(00:06) Introduction
(00:14) Family and Childhood
• Born in Northport, Michigan and moved to Cheboygan, Michigan in seventh
grade. He lived with his this parents, one brother and two sisters. He Graduated
from Cheboygan High School in 1935.
•
Father was a telephone installer.
(00:58) Pre-enlistment
• Attended teachers training school (county normal) for one year and taught in rural
one room country school in Cheboygan County thereafter for 3 years
• Worked for a rustic furniture company as a shipping manager. (1:26)
•
Did not attend college until after service so he needed to stop teaching. (1:47)
•
Was aware that he might be drafted, but did not worry about it much. Lived in a
small town and Pearl Harbor went by without much impact on daily life. (2:07)
(2:45) Enlistment and Training
• Drafted in June 1942, at 24 years old and took oath in Fort Detroit, and went to
Camp Custer classified as branch immaterial. (2:45)
• Sent to Fort McClellan for basic infantry training. (3:44)
•
Already familiar with training because of a previous experience in ROTC at
Michigan State College (later Michigan State University). (4:58)
•
Drill sergeants were kind, and he was responsive there were no problems or
reprimands. (5:18)
•
The military had to investigate his character in the community before his
acceptance and sworn to top secrecy. (5:52) Sent to land based radar school at
Fort Monroe Virginia for training in electronics and electronics repair. (7:00)
(7:48) Cape My, New Jersey
• Arrived in Cape May around middle of 1943. In charge of station as a sergeant
(8:26)
�•
Radar was a self-operating station on the beach in a fenced in location. The radar
was housed in a building that looked like a water tank allowing the unit to work in
virtual secret. (8:36)
•
They were looking at objects at sea for enemies and reported it to the Coast Guard
Artillery for further identification. Has a crew of twenty-five men and was in
charge twenty-four hours per day operating in crews of eight. (9:30)
•
U-Boat threat was under control and they were keeping the coastlines clear.
(10:30)
•
Looking at freighter traffic that was not traveling in convoys, and looking at
Norfolk, Virginia. (11:07)
•
Other men would travel daily back and forth from surrounding bases for their
shifts, because the station was not equipped with sleep quarters. (11:46)
•
Lived for almost a year in a private home on the board walk owned by some
upstate residents as a summer home and was given room and board for his wife
and himself who were newly weds. (11:51)
(13:38) Further Training and Overseas Service
• Applied for Signal Corps Administration and officer position in supply and was
sent to Texas for further training. (13:38)
•
Sent to Hawaii, which was not yet a state, and was given a desk job in movement
and acceptance of supplies. (15:00)
•
Enjoyed time off for golfing and swimming. Seemed like paradise. (17:10)
•
His wife was not with him in Hawaii. He was released from service without issue
due to his wife’s pregnancy without a request on his part. (17:48)
•
Felt he was there to help the effort and those around him. He wanted to help his
men solve problems and grateful that his education allowed him to not have to do
many of the things others had to do. (19:00), (20:10)
•
Felt he knew what to expect from service life because he had worked with WWI
veterans and was in the Drum and Bugle corps before this service experience. He
felt he was not particularly indoctrinated because of these prior experiences.
(19:31)
(21:06) After The Service
• Radio and television repair business, and went to college on weekend at Central
Michigan University. (21:32)
�•
Received a Masters degree. (21:36)
•
•
•
Taught K-12 until he was sixty-five, and then retired. (21:41)
Substitute taught in Cheboygan County until his mid seventies. (21:53)
The children always wanted to know if he was a veteran and he would tell them
stories of his service. They would want to know about the 16 inch guns and if he
has ever killed anyone, which he had not. (21:56), (22:58)
•
Was a major of Cheboygan for one term in 1954 and worked for: board of
directors at the Department of Social Services in addition to The State of
Michigan Veteran’s Trust. He has preformed services for veteran’s counseling
and affairs. (23:51)
•
Believed the State did a fairly good job and the main issue was transport to vital
services, and opportunities for care. Veterans never really get mentally on track
themselves because they have others who depend on them post war. b
He is a Commander in the American Legion and is in charge of Veteran Memorial
Day services. (28:00)
•
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LeslieQ
Title
A name given to the resource
Leslie, Quincy (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Leslie, Quincy
Description
An account of the resource
Quincy Leslie is a WW II veteran from Cheboygan, Michigan who served in the U.S. Army after being drafted in 1942. He served in a radar unit on the New Jersey shore, and then as a supply officer in Hawaii until his discharge in 1946. After the war, he became actively involved in working with veterans in Michigan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-02-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dd0378a75ddbe87e91cfd1682dd2d2cb.mp4
fd080b250f38cb5001591071adfae304
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3df2b8166b03713ead5b99d20c0c1b2.pdf
176c92fdc65963979aed2ea2b8c1ba9f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
World War II
Sid Lenger
Interview Length: (01:15:19:00)
Pre-enlistment / Training (00:01:37:00)
Born in Wyoming, Michigan in 1918 above a shoe store (00:01:37:00)
o At the time, his family had a pot-belly stove in the living room and there was a
pump downstairs that they had to carry water from (00:01:57:00)
His father worked at a meat market below their apartment (00:02:11:00)
o His father would go out on a horse and ring a bell as advertisement; when he later
got an automobile, his father did the same thing (00:02:15:00)
o Lenger’s father managed to keep his stores through the Great Depression and he
actually sold one of them (00:02:29:00)
Lenger’s grandfather worked next door in the shoe store (00:02:38:00)
At the time, they did not buy shoes in boxes; a person came in and
was fitted for a shoe, then the shoe was made and the person came
back later (00:02:48:00)
Lenger’s grandfather wanted to retire, so another man bought the shoe
store and Lenger’s father built a new store for the man on the other side of
the road (00:02:57:00)
Lenger’s grandfather already owned a building there, so they
moved that building down the street and built the new one for the
man to continue Lenger’s grandfather’s business (00:03:16:00)
In 1927, Lenger’s family moved into good-sized house they had built; it was considered
modern for the time because there was an inside bathroom and electric lights instead of
the gas burning lights (00:03:30:00)
Lenger’s family did not face many problems during the Depression because his father
still ran the meat market; his father’s main problem was collecting money (00:04:01:00)
o His father came out of the Depression very well, so he wrote a letter that was
published in the newspaper saying no one owed him money any more; he figured
that if God had blessed him that much, he was willing to forgive the people owing
him money (00:04:08:00)
Lenger attending school through the twelfth grade at Lee High School (00:04:46:00)
o After school let out, Lenger worked for his father in a meat market; he rode his
bike to the market and worked there at night (00:04:55:00)
o He earned a dollar a week, which was pretty good; he was one of the richest kids
in the school (00:05:14:00)
o Following high school graduation, Lenger went into business with his father; his
father eventually turned a store over to Lenger, who ran it as a grocery / meat
market until he was drafted (00:05:22:00)
Before Pearl Harbor, Lenger and his family followed the conflict in Europe; because they
had a radio, they would listen to the news (00:05:50:00)
�
o Lenger’s fathers always told him to watch out for Russians and Germans;
Germans shopped at the meat market and Lenger’s father always told him to
watch them because a slip of the tongue could cause problems (00:06:06:00)
When the attack on Pearl Harbor happened, Lenger’s wife was pregnant and on Dec. 7th,
he took her to the hospital and their first daughter was born (00:06:30:00)
o While they were there, they heard news over the radio that Pearl Harbor had been
bombed and Lenger’s wife became worried the Japanese were going to bomb the
hospital (00:06:45:00)
Lenger had registered for the draft when he was in high school (00:07:05:00)
o Lenger was simply waiting for his number to be called and when it was called, he
had to go to Detroit for a physical examination; at the examination, the doctors
found out that Lenger was warm, so he passed (00:07:25:00)
He received his draft notice three weeks before Memorial Day in 1944 (00:07:44:00)
o Following the examination, the military told Lenger he had three weeks to get rid
of everything he owned and report for training (00:08:22:00)
o After the three weeks, all the men had to go back to Detroit to report; they
reported the day before Memorial Day, so they sat in Detroit doing nothing while
everybody else was out celebrating (00:08:27:00)
From Detroit, the men shipped out to Great Lakes, Illinois, a training center
(00:08:39:00)
The man who interviewed Lenger in Detroit asked Lenger what branch he wanted, Army
or Navy; when Lenger said the Navy, the man said he was in the Army, but he still put
down the Navy on Lenger’s paperwork (00:08:48:00)
o The Navy needed sailors to work on the LST fleet; at that time, the LST was the
most important ship in the Navy because they allowed the Navy to land troops
instead of just moving them around (00:09:09:00)
Great Lakes was north of Chicago, on Lake Michigan and near Wisconsin (00:09:34:00)
o There was a large number of barracks on the base, with around fifty men to a
barracks building (00:09:51:00)
o Every morning, the men went out and exercised, namely calisthenics and
swimming, all of which was meant to build the men up physically (00:09:59:00)
o Lenger knew how to play the trumpet, so he ended up joining the drum and bugle
corps; on the 4th of July, they went to a parade in Racine, Wisconsin, which was
nice to be able to get out of the base for a while (00:10:09:00)
o The main order was that the men had better obey a command, with the last
command being obeyed first (00:10:31:00)
On one side of the drill field was a large pile of big rocks and if a man did
not follow directions, then he had to carry the rocks from one side of the
field to the other (00:10:42:00)
o Lenger had no trouble adapting to military life; when he was a butcher, they did
not have any electric saws and they had to carry around the meat, so Lenger was
in pretty good shape when he went into the military (00:11:13:00)
He ended up coming in second for the strength test (00:11:27:00)
o He was older than everyone else he trained with; Lenger was twenty-five and the
other men were eighteen and nineteen (00:11:36:00)
�
Lenger spent six weeks at Great Lakes and after the six weeks, he had one week at home
before having to report back to the Navy Pier in Chicago (00:11:46:00)
o The men spent a little more than a week at the Navy Pier before they shipped over
to Seneca, Illinois, where the LSTs were being built; from Seneca, each man
boarded his new LST (00:12:08:00)
o Chicago was good to the men; Lenger could get on the “L” trains for nothing and
take it to Benton Harbor, Michigan and then hitch-hike his way back home to
Grand Rapids (00:12:50:00)
Following Great Lakes, Lenger first went to the Navy base in Little Creek, Virginia, then
to the base at Little Neck and finally to Camp Bradford, also in Virginia (00:13:29:00)
o Each base had different training for the men, including: working with gasoline,
fire fighting, and at Camp Bradford, more gun training with the 20 mm, the 40
mm, and rifles (00:13:37:00)
All the training was all standard for men getting ready to deploy on an
LST (00:14:24:00)
Lenger’s timing was just right to catch his LST; some of the other men who were before
him spent more time training in different areas, such as being the quartermaster on the
ship (00:14:33:00)
o They had three quartermasters on their ship, the maximum allowed limit, but
Lenger asked to be a quartermaster (00:14:50:00)
When a man on the ship said there was not room for advancement and the
ship was full, Lenger said he did not mind it because he had not joined the
military for advancement (00:15:02:00)
During the 1940s, Lenger’s father owned a twenty-five foot cruiser on
Lake Michigan and they would charter the boat; when they did so, Lenger
worked with the charters, a job he enjoyed (00:15:20:00)
o Lenger did not want to work in the engine room because of the heat; when he
worked as quartermaster, Lenger had to change the clocks whenever they went
into a new time zone and when he went into the engine room to change the
clocks, especially at the Equator, it got pretty hot (00:15:43:00)
o Being a quartermaster meant Lenger was partly in charge of the ship; in the
wheelhouse, there were three men: one was on the log, the second was on the
wheel, and the third was on the enunciator, which controlled the speed of the ship
(00:16:10:00)
Lenger and the other quartermasters worked in four hour shifts, so they
would change positions (00:16:38:00)
Also, every fifteen minutes, a quartermaster had to go to the back of the
ship and keep a log of the weather conditions; if anything happened,
information would be logged (00:16:53:00)
Chicago liked the sailors and Norfolk did not (00:17:28:00)
o The men went out only once while in Norfolk (00:17:36:00)
They started walking and then decided to take a bus; however, the bus had
a sign that read “sailors and soldiers, thirty-five cents; civilians, ten cents”
(00:17:41:00)
The men did not have that kind of money; Lenger’s paycheck was only
four dollars a month, so he did not have a lot of money (00:17:52:00)
�
The men hiked around for a little bit and it was not uncommon to see signs
in the lawn saying “sailors and dogs keep off the grass” (00:18:04:00)
Lenger could see their point because there were so many young
kids fresh out of high school (00:18:14:00)
They eventually stopped at a restaurant that had ten cents cups of coffee,
but thirty-five cent cups for soldiers (00:18:24:00)
Lenger was in Virginia for about three weeks to finish his training; once the training was
complete, the Navy shipped the men back to Navy Pier and then onto the LST in Seneca,
a suburb of Chicago, maybe forty or fifty miles outside of the city (00:18:46:00)
o The city was on the Illinois River, so the men took their LST, which had already
been launched by the time they got there, down the river to the Mississippi River,
which took them down to New Orleans (00:19:17:00)
o Once in New Orleans, they put the mast and anything with height onto the ship
because they could not fit under the bridges otherwise (00:19:33:00)
Normally, ship went about eight or nine knots but going down the
Mississippi, they hit thirteen knots (00:19:41:00)
o Lenger only got off the LST once it reached New Orleans (00:20:05:00)
Lenger and his wife had their third child while he was sailing down the river to New
Orleans (00:20:15:00)
o After about a week in training, Lenger received word that he had another son, so
he received permission to take a plane home; he was home over Sunday to have
the baby baptized and then he had to leave on Monday (00:20:21:00)
o When Lenger went into the service, he sold his business; he and his wife had three
weeks following his physical examination to decided if they wanted to sell their
house, their car, or their business (00:21:22:00)
They knew they were going to sell the business and that gave Lenger’s
wife money to survive while he was gone (00:21:41:00)
o Lenger also took out life insurance, although he did need to; the Army took ten
dollars of his pay every month, leaving him with four dollars to spend
(00:21:55:00)
o At the time, Lenger’s wife made forty-eight dollars a week and they had a twentyfive dollar payment for the house, which they decided to keep; because of this,
she could only spend around a dollar a day to feed the family (00:22:08:00)
Deployment (00:23:04:00)
From New Orleans, Lenger and the other men sailed the LST through the Gulf of Mexico
to Panama; there were rough seas on the journey and Lenger got seasick to the point that
he thought he was going to die (00:23:04:00)
o He eventually got over the seasickness and never got seasick again (00:23:21:00)
o During the journey, Lenger’s LST sailed with two other LSTs that had left New
Orleans at the same time (00:23:32:00)
o The LST docked in Panama for about three days before sailing through the
Panama Canal (00:23:39:00)
One of the men on the LST got appendicitis, so they stopped in Mexico to drop him off
before continuing on to San Diego, California, where the ship picked up a lot more of its
supplies before taking off (00:23:48:00)
�
The men on the LST had it good because they stopped at submarine bases
for their supplies and the submariners always received the best food of
anybody (00:24:06:00)
The standard LST is three hundred and twenty-eight feet long with a crew of one hundred
and four and eight or nine officers (00:24:36:00)
o Lenger’s LST was the flagship after it reached Honolulu, Hawaii, so they had to
take on six more officers to command the other LSTs (00:24:46:00)
o At the outbreak of the war, Winston Churchill wrote to President Roosevelt
saying the British had a lot of problems, one of which was that to invade France,
they would have to use the tiny Higgins boats, which would make their soldiers
cannon-fodder for the Germans (00:25:12:00)
Churchill wrote that they needed a ship that could carry tanks and bigger
equipment so that when the British landed, they had heavier weapons to
fight back with (00:25:36:00)
Roosevelt gave the letter to a Mr. Niedermeyer, who was in charge of the
ships, and when he looked at what the British had designed for four years,
none of which worked, Niedermeyer took the envelope the letter had come
on and drew the design for an LST (00:25:55:00)
When they took the design back to Churchill, he said it was exactly what
they needed, only a little bit bigger so that they could carry in the larger
tanks (00:26:27:00)
o When they began construction of the LST fleet, the Navy stopped construction on
an aircraft carrier to get the steel needed (00:26:43:00)
o According to stories, when the first LST arrived in Hawaii, the personnel were
surprised by the bow doors of the ship; other ships had to sit at a dock to unload
while the LST could sail right on shore, open its doors, lower a ramp, and
personnel could drive equipment on and off (00:27:07:00)
Lenger’s LST did not carry any military supplies or equipment when it left San Diego;
they picked up a lot of that in Hawaii (00:27:56:00)
o One thing they picked up was an LCT, a hundred and thirty-eight foot craft used
to ferry smaller supplies from the cargo ships to shore (00:28:01:00)
The journey across the Pacific was long; it took about three weeks before the men saw
land anywhere (00:28:33:00)
o They had good weather and at noon everyday, the men took an azimuth of the sun
from just outside the wheelhouse; after getting the exact time and taking three
readings, the men went into a chartroom behind the wheelhouse and charted the
location of the ship (00:28:39:00)
At night, just before sun-down and when the first star became visible, the
men took a reading with a sextant of the North Star and two other stars
and by using those measurements, they could also find out where they
were (00:29:13:00)
On cloudy days, the men could not do this, so they read the logs which
told them how fast the ship was going and in what direction, so the men
could plot where the ship was and often, they came close (00:29:44:00)
o At this point, Lenger’s LST was sailing in a convoy with eight or ten other LSTs
and two destroyer escorts (00:30:14:00)
�
The convoy did not encounter any Japanese submarines because it was a
little hard for the Japanese to attack them with a torpedo because the ship
did not have a large draft (00:30:38:00)
The men worried about kamikazes more than anything else (00:31:01:00)
From Hawaii, the convoy crossed the Equator and went to Tulagi, then to the Russell
Islands, and finally to Guadalcanal (00:31:11:00)
o Along the way, the convoy was picking up different Marine units and their
supplies (00:31:25:00)
o When the ship crossed the Equator, the men woke up that morning and they only
got three beans on a plate to eat; when they got to the end of the line, someone
asked each man quietly if they would like an egg and if they said yes, then an egg
was smashed over their head (00:31:47:00)
Another man had to carry a heavy chain around his neck all day and
another had to take a bedpan to all the men who needed to go to the
bathroom because using the “head” was forbidden (00:32:11:00)
Eventually, each man had to climb a ladder at the back of the ship and
then crawl under fifty feet of canvas; when they tried to climb the ladder,
others used a salt water hose against the men, trying to knock them off and
when they went under the canvas, the men were hit with two by fours
before being hit with more water (00:32:33:00)
Finally, the men went before “King Neptune”, were they had to get down
on their hands and knees and were shocked with electricity before being
told to kiss the deck (00:33:16:00)
Lenger’s initiation on the LST was a little rougher than on some other
ships, such as an aircraft carrier, because those ships were not subject to
being on land (00:34:24:00)
At night, the LST faced the possibility of being taken over by a
Japanese attack; the LST did not have the firepower to fight back
against an attack (00:34:36:00)
Part of the initiation was to prepare the men for what would
happen if they were captured so they would not talk (00:34:58:00)
Lenger did not go ashore for long periods, but he did go ashore (00:35:31:00)
o One time, when they were not on duty, Lenger and another man went on the
beach and climbed in the hills; when they did so, the two men found a Japanese
machine gun with live ammunition (00:35:41:00)
Lenger wanted to take it but they were was not allowed to, so the men left
it alone (00:36:00:00)
o When they stopped in the Russell Islands, Lenger also worked as a store keeper
and on their way back from getting supplies, the men spotted a river, so they took
a small boat from the LST and went up the river (00:36:24:00)
On their way up the river, the men saw a village and they talked with the
villagers as much as they could; Lenger ended up getting a hand-carved
walking stick from the people living in the village (00:36:57:00)
After the LSTs was fully loaded, the convoy went to Ulithi to join with the rest of the
fleet and from Ulithi, the fleet attacked Okinawa (00:37:54:00)
�o By now, there were about one thousand ships sailing together towards Okinawa;
the aircraft carriers were about five miles behind the main force, the battleships
were in the next row, then the destroyers and LSTs designed to fire rockets, and
finally the LSTs carrying soldiers (00:38:21:00)
o The troop-carrying LSTs actually attacked the beach directly while all the other
ships provided the fire power (00:38:42:00)
Battle of Okinawa (00:38:51:00)
At three or four o’clock on the morning of the invasion, the carriers sent in their aircraft
to start bombing the beaches (00:38:51:00)
Lenger’s general quarters station on the ship was manning a 20 mm anti-aircraft gun
(00:39:21:00)
o There were twelve 20 mm anti-aircraft guns on the ship, five 40 mm anti-aircraft
guns, and one twenty-forty mm anti-aircraft gun; it took nearly forty percent of
the ship’s crew to man the anti-aircraft guns (00:39:28:00)
The crewmen manning the 40 mm had to wear helmets and earphones and
they had to wait until they heard the command to fire; they never fired
unless told to do so (00:39:50:00)
When enemy planes were a couple of miles away, then the 40 mm guns
received orders to fire and if they came within a mile, then the 20 mm
guns received permission to fire (00:40:07:00)
Although the men had training, things were a lot different when they got
into action (00:40:26:00)
There was a viewfinder on the top of each gun and in training, the
men followed a plane pulling a flag; as they followed the plane, the
gun moved too so that they could hit their target (00:40:34:00)
After the first day, looking through the viewfinder was like looking
through a telescope; instead, Lenger followed the path of the tracer
shells in his gun (00:40:54:00)
After the carrier aircraft attacked the beach, the battleships fired on the beach with their
sixteen-inch guns (00:41:44:00)
o The concussion from the guns was so amazing that it felt like their clothes would
be shaken right off of the men (00:41:54:00)
o Some of the battleships were only a thousand yards away from the LST when they
fired their guns (00:42:17:00)
Once the battleships finished bombarding the beach, the LSTs went in (00:40:12:00)
o Lenger’s LST had to go to the beach to get rid of all the Marines and their
equipment; there were five hundred Marines on the ship plus two hundred and
fifty Seabees (00:42:45:00)
o On either side of the ship were metal pontoons and in order to get the LCT off the
top of the ship, they had to get ride of the pontoons; when they had unloaded the
pontoons, the Seabees used them to construct bridges out to other ships so that
trucks could be used to unload them (00:42:59:00)
o The Marines went right off the front of the boat and were armed with trucks and
tanks (00:43:39:00)
�
o On about the third day, the pontoons were gone, so the men listed the ship eleven
degrees to starboard and once it was at that angle, someone cut the lines securing
the LCT to the deck and it slipped into the water (00:43:57:00)
They used to LCT to ferry soldiers from the troop ships to the beach
(00:44:27:00)
When they first landed, the LST did not see much Japanese gun fire (00:44:42:00)
o On the first day, the battleships rounds were impacting the beach and four or five
times, the shore battery would fire back; the LST simple sat underneath as the
barrages flew overhead and eventually, the Marines took the guns (00:44:44:00)
However, on the first day, three planes attacked the LST and everyday, there would be
kamikazes attacking; Lenger had a ring-side seat on the 20 mm because sometimes the
planes were too far away and the men would watch dogfights between the Americans and
Japanese (00:45:16:00)
o The Japanese Zero was lighter than the American Corsair and on the first couple
of days, a Zero would dive with a Corsair behind it and when the Zero pulled up,
the Corsair could not, so it inevitably crashed into the water (00:45:55:00)
After a couple of days, the American pilots figured out the tactic and to
not follow the Zero all the way (00:46:23:00)
o Many of the Japanese planes that the men saw were kamikazes and Lenger did see
ships hit by kamikaze attacks (00:46:40:00)
o Apart from some bullet holes, Lenger’s LST was never hit but they did have some
close calls (00:47:08:00)
One time, Lenger received the order to commence firing and when he
pulled the trigger, a shell jammed in the breach; when he called back, a
seaman told him to take the barrel off and throw it over the side of ship
before the shell blew up (00:47:24:00)
They eventually brought Lenger a new barrel for the gun so he
could continue firing (00:48:12:00)
Once they had fired two magazines through the gun, the men had to
change the barrel because if it overheated, the barrel’s rifling would
degrade and the shell would not fly correctly (00:48:14:00)
During one kamikaze attack, the plane was coming at the LST and the 40
mm received the orders to commence firing; because the LST was all
alone, the kamikaze focused on them (00:48:49:00)
When Lenger received the order, he emptied one canister then
another into the kamikaze and when he was getting ready to crash
into the ship, the plane pulled up and missed the ship by about
twenty feet (00:49:11:00)
The plane eventually crashed between the LST and a light cruiser
and blew up (00:50:16:00)
o There were kamikaze attacks every day to the point that the most sleep the men
got on any day during the first thirty days was three hours (00:50:30:00)
It reached the point that Lenger and his assistant stayed at their gun and
took turns manning the gun and sleeping (00:50:40:00)
The kamikazes also attacked at night (00:50:49:00)
�
Sometimes when the kamikazes attacked at night, the men could
not see them, so the ships made a blanket of smoke so the
kamikazes could not see the ships (00:50:52:00)
Once they had landed the Marines, the LST went back and picked up eight hundred Army
soldiers and their equipment and landed them in a different location; they were moving
troops around based on where they were needed (00:51:31:00)
After thirty days, the LST pulled out of Okinawa because the men were exhausted and
returned to Ulithi (00:52:03:00)
o The men had five or six days in Ulithi while others checked the ship over because
they had run aground on some coral reefs; the ship lost some oil and the two
propellers were roughed up (00:52:22:00)
o They said there was too much damage to fix at Ulithi, so they had to sail the ship
to the Philippines, namely Subic Bay on Luzon, where they got the ship fixed up
and painted to make it look like a proper ship again (00:52:59:00)
From the Philippines, the LST took pilots and supplies from the P-38 aircraft to the island
of Ie Shima, a small island near Okinawa where the P-38s could provide escort to
bombers attacking Tokyo and other Japanese cities (00:53:25:00)
o The men arrived on the island about two weeks after well-known war
correspondent Ernie Pyle died and the men took pictures of the monument others
had erected in Pyle’s memory (00:54:35:00)
The attacks did not slow down as the fighting for Okinawa waned; the Japanese just kept
coming and coming (00:55:19:00)
o The Japanese had so many planes that after the war, the men found out they had
six thousand kamikazes waiting for when the fleet attacked Japan (00:55:23:00)
Lenger knew that attack was coming because he eventually went back to
working with the charts (00:55:38:00)
After Okinawa, the LST went back to the Philippines (00:55:57:00)
The war ended while the LST was at Okinawa (00:56:06:00)
o The men heard guns firing at night and assumed the Japanese were attacking
again, so they rushed to their guns and the first thing Lenger heard when he put on
his headphones was the war was over (00:56:12:00)
o Lenger then told his assistant the war was over and he did not believe Lenger
(00:56:24:00)
Eventually, LST went back to the Philippines to pick up supplies and then took the
supplies to Japan (00:56:38:00)
o When the Japanese signed the official surrender agreement, the LST was sailing
from Manila to Japan; the men did not see the actual ceremony (00:56:51:00)
o The LST first landed in Yokohama, where they unload supplies for the Army and
afterwards, the men received a day liberty (00:57:04:00)
o After unload, the LST left Yokohama to pick up another load of supplies from the
Philippines; however, Lenger had accumulated enough points and he was able to
stay behind on the Philippines when the ship returned to Japan (00:57:18:00)
o When the men had their liberty leave from the ship, they found the Japanese to be
very curious; however, the men could not talk with the Japanese, so they just
looked around (00:57:43:00)
�
They looked around and took some pictures but at that point, the men did
not even care if they got pictures (00:57:57:00)
When the LST was in New Orleans, Lenger asked the captain if it would be okay for him
to take a camera aboard; the captain said it was, so long as when Lenger developed the
film, the captain got to see them (00:58:17:00)
o Lenger not only took his regular camera, but also an 8 mm movie camera;
however, he only had a few rolls of film, so he had to be careful what he took
pictures of (00:58:38:00)
When Lenger would ship items home, he stuck rolls of the film into the
box after it had been checked so his wife could see what was going on
(00:59:01:00)
o Whenever Lenger was at general quarters, he did not dare take the camera with
him; he was on the gun and that was it (00:59:49:00)
o When he was also on duty in the wheelhouse, Lenger was not able to film
anything and at Okinawa, he did not have time to take pictures and he did not dare
take any (01:00:01:00)
o He does have film of regular life aboard the LST, as well as the ceremony for
crossing the Equator and the launching of the LCT (01:00:47:00)
When Lenger was ready to get out of the Navy, there were so many men in the same
position as him on an island that the Navy did not have enough food to feed them all
(01:01:34:00)
o They eventually put him on a transport that took him to San Francisco, where he
stayed for four or five days before getting on a train to Chicago, where he was
discharged at Great Lakes (01:01:59:00)
o His wife came down to Great Lakes to pick him up once he was discharged
(01:02:23:00)
Post-Military Life (01:03:00:00)
When he got home, Lenger tried to go back into business but things were rough because
rationing of supplies was still in place (01:03:00:00)
o Lenger called all the former people he worked with but none could give Lenger
what he needed, so he had to go find other suppliers (01:03:14:00)
o When he tried to purchase beef, the man said Lenger needed ration stamps, which
Lenger had given to the man who purchased his store when he went into the
service and he would have to pay under the table (01:03:46:00)
o He did this for awhile but he was not making any money, so Lenger gave the
business up (01:04:22:00)
o Instead, he went and worked for his brother’s business at $1.75 an hour;
eventually, Lenger got a job in sales at [Chester Locks] (01:04:39:00)
He went all over Michigan for the job, but because people were on strike,
his checks were not delivered, so Lenger quit (01:05:02:00)
Finally, Lenger ended up working for a business called Gardner-Denver, which made
pneumatic tools (01:05:14:00)
o Lenger originally did not know what most of tools did that he was selling, but he
received training and used “his dumbness” to help him sell more (01:05:29:00)
�
The first time he went out, he went to a tool- and dye- shop, said he was
selling the product but he did not know how they worked and asked if the
workers in the shop could show him (01:05:38:00)
A man showed Lenger how it worked and Lenger said he would leave the
machine overnight and come back the next morning; when he came back,
the man said he needed a dozen of the machines (01:05:54:00)
o Lenger stayed with the company for awhile but he ended up selling too many
tools (01:06:25:00)
One time, Lenger’s sales manager pointed out that Lenger was trying to
get an order from a competitor; Lenger asked if he could continue because
he believed that he could get an order out of them (01:06:45:00)
About a month later, Lenger got a large order from the competing
company because their equipment did not do as much work as
Lenger’s equipment did (01:07:12:00)
o It got to the point that they were sending Lenger all over the country because
other salesmen had sold products but the products kept breaking, so Lenger had to
go an fix them (01:07:40:00)
The company wanted Lenger to move to Quincy, Illinois but he had one
child in high school, one in grade school, and two in college, so there was
no way he was going to move; he told them to ask him in a few years but
not at that moment (01:08:22:00)
The company ended up taking away small parts of Lenger’s territory in an
effort to get him to move, so he gave them six months notice and went into
manufacturing the tools himself, but only for a few years (01:08:45:00)
Lenger’s manufacturing company originally made dye-grinders for fifty dollars and sold
them for around one hundred dollars; however, one day they saw there was a thirty-nine
dollar grinder for sale (01:09:13:00)
o Lenger and his wife went to Japan and talked with five companies and said he
wanted to just buy the rotor and cylinder, but a sales man said that would cost him
more than the tool itself (01:09:35:00)
o When Lenger asked what he meant, the man explained the Japanese government
subsidized the whole tool, not parts; when Lenger asked the price of the parts, he
found he could make them cheaper, so he figured he could sell them to the
Japanese companies (01:10:01:00)
However, the man said that would not work either because when Lenger
would ship the parts, they charged a one hundred percent import duty,
which raised the price, whereas shipping to America only involved a four
percent duty (01:10:20:00)
o When Lenger got back home, he told his wife that they were going to sell the
company because they could not compete with the cheaper products (01:10:45:00)
o Lenger then went back to Gardner-Denver and because he knew the president of
the company; neither man drank, so when the company had parties, they sat
together (01:10:53:00)
The president was not there that day, so Lenger told a man in the company
to start selling their tools at thirty-nine dollars and they could compete
with the Japanese tools; the man disregarded the information, saying the
�
company had been around too long to worry about the Japanese and four
years later, the company was out of business (01:11:15:00)
When he sold the manufacturing business, Lenger did not quite know what to do, but he
loved traveling, so he told his wife he was going to open at travel agency (01:11:56:00)
o They had gone to a travel agency a couple of times and had received bad
information; one time, Lenger and his wife went to Portugal and when Lenger
asked what kind of clothes he should take, the travel agent said it was February,
so they probably had snow (01:12:06:00)
So, Lenger took heavy clothes and the temperature turned out to be in the
eighties (01:12:24:00)
Another time, Lenger and his wife went to the Canary Island and Lenger
told the travel agent he wanted to go to Africa and the agent told him to
make the reservations once Lenger was on the island; when he tried to, the
people of the islands told Lenger the flight was full and reservations were
needed a month in advance (01:12:29:00)
o Lenger started the travel agency with his wife and they grew to be one of the
largest agencies in Grand Rapids before Lenger sold the business (01:13:03:00)
o Mission: India eventually wanted Lenger to work for them because for twentyfive years Lenger and his wife went to India every year to take pictures do fund
raising and programs (01:13:19:00)
Lenger learned a lot of respect in the Navy; no matter where he worked or what he did,
there was always someone over him (01:13:46:00)
o If Lenger was in charge of it, everyone graduating from high school would serve
for two years, if only to receive the regimentation and help get their feet on the
ground (01:14:15:00)
o Lenger and his comrades were very fortunate; they had canvas to sleep on and
good food to eat (01:14:46:00)
Lenger loved the twelve to four watch at night because after the cooks
finished their work, they came up to the wheelhouse and brought a cup of
coffee and sometimes a fresh pie (01:14:56:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LengerS1040Supp
Title
A name given to the resource
Lenger, Sidney (Interview outline and supplemental video, 2 of 2), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lenger, Sidney
Description
An account of the resource
Sid Lenger was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1918. After graduation from high school, Lenger went into business with his father, who ran several stores in the Grand Rapids. After several years, Lenger received his draft notice and following training in Chicago and Virginia, Lenger sailed on an LST down the Mississippi River, through the Gulf and Mexico and the Panama Canal and into the Pacific Ocean. Lenger's LST transported Marines as part of the massive invasion of Okinawa. Following the battle, the LST transported the supplies needed for P-38 fighter escorts and supplies to Japan before Lenger left the service. Included with the interview is a video Lenger made himself, combining official Navy training films and video he filmed himself while aboard the LST.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-01-04
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/216e3bd5895d7c2826ab921c353fa9a0.mp4
3a3b9974e9d818f5c8d90943f42f4fe1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3a73ca0cb36495107e27cd604ca3e5c0.pdf
176c92fdc65963979aed2ea2b8c1ba9f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
World War II
Sid Lenger
Interview Length: (01:15:19:00)
Pre-enlistment / Training (00:01:37:00)
Born in Wyoming, Michigan in 1918 above a shoe store (00:01:37:00)
o At the time, his family had a pot-belly stove in the living room and there was a
pump downstairs that they had to carry water from (00:01:57:00)
His father worked at a meat market below their apartment (00:02:11:00)
o His father would go out on a horse and ring a bell as advertisement; when he later
got an automobile, his father did the same thing (00:02:15:00)
o Lenger’s father managed to keep his stores through the Great Depression and he
actually sold one of them (00:02:29:00)
Lenger’s grandfather worked next door in the shoe store (00:02:38:00)
At the time, they did not buy shoes in boxes; a person came in and
was fitted for a shoe, then the shoe was made and the person came
back later (00:02:48:00)
Lenger’s grandfather wanted to retire, so another man bought the shoe
store and Lenger’s father built a new store for the man on the other side of
the road (00:02:57:00)
Lenger’s grandfather already owned a building there, so they
moved that building down the street and built the new one for the
man to continue Lenger’s grandfather’s business (00:03:16:00)
In 1927, Lenger’s family moved into good-sized house they had built; it was considered
modern for the time because there was an inside bathroom and electric lights instead of
the gas burning lights (00:03:30:00)
Lenger’s family did not face many problems during the Depression because his father
still ran the meat market; his father’s main problem was collecting money (00:04:01:00)
o His father came out of the Depression very well, so he wrote a letter that was
published in the newspaper saying no one owed him money any more; he figured
that if God had blessed him that much, he was willing to forgive the people owing
him money (00:04:08:00)
Lenger attending school through the twelfth grade at Lee High School (00:04:46:00)
o After school let out, Lenger worked for his father in a meat market; he rode his
bike to the market and worked there at night (00:04:55:00)
o He earned a dollar a week, which was pretty good; he was one of the richest kids
in the school (00:05:14:00)
o Following high school graduation, Lenger went into business with his father; his
father eventually turned a store over to Lenger, who ran it as a grocery / meat
market until he was drafted (00:05:22:00)
Before Pearl Harbor, Lenger and his family followed the conflict in Europe; because they
had a radio, they would listen to the news (00:05:50:00)
�
o Lenger’s fathers always told him to watch out for Russians and Germans;
Germans shopped at the meat market and Lenger’s father always told him to
watch them because a slip of the tongue could cause problems (00:06:06:00)
When the attack on Pearl Harbor happened, Lenger’s wife was pregnant and on Dec. 7th,
he took her to the hospital and their first daughter was born (00:06:30:00)
o While they were there, they heard news over the radio that Pearl Harbor had been
bombed and Lenger’s wife became worried the Japanese were going to bomb the
hospital (00:06:45:00)
Lenger had registered for the draft when he was in high school (00:07:05:00)
o Lenger was simply waiting for his number to be called and when it was called, he
had to go to Detroit for a physical examination; at the examination, the doctors
found out that Lenger was warm, so he passed (00:07:25:00)
He received his draft notice three weeks before Memorial Day in 1944 (00:07:44:00)
o Following the examination, the military told Lenger he had three weeks to get rid
of everything he owned and report for training (00:08:22:00)
o After the three weeks, all the men had to go back to Detroit to report; they
reported the day before Memorial Day, so they sat in Detroit doing nothing while
everybody else was out celebrating (00:08:27:00)
From Detroit, the men shipped out to Great Lakes, Illinois, a training center
(00:08:39:00)
The man who interviewed Lenger in Detroit asked Lenger what branch he wanted, Army
or Navy; when Lenger said the Navy, the man said he was in the Army, but he still put
down the Navy on Lenger’s paperwork (00:08:48:00)
o The Navy needed sailors to work on the LST fleet; at that time, the LST was the
most important ship in the Navy because they allowed the Navy to land troops
instead of just moving them around (00:09:09:00)
Great Lakes was north of Chicago, on Lake Michigan and near Wisconsin (00:09:34:00)
o There was a large number of barracks on the base, with around fifty men to a
barracks building (00:09:51:00)
o Every morning, the men went out and exercised, namely calisthenics and
swimming, all of which was meant to build the men up physically (00:09:59:00)
o Lenger knew how to play the trumpet, so he ended up joining the drum and bugle
corps; on the 4th of July, they went to a parade in Racine, Wisconsin, which was
nice to be able to get out of the base for a while (00:10:09:00)
o The main order was that the men had better obey a command, with the last
command being obeyed first (00:10:31:00)
On one side of the drill field was a large pile of big rocks and if a man did
not follow directions, then he had to carry the rocks from one side of the
field to the other (00:10:42:00)
o Lenger had no trouble adapting to military life; when he was a butcher, they did
not have any electric saws and they had to carry around the meat, so Lenger was
in pretty good shape when he went into the military (00:11:13:00)
He ended up coming in second for the strength test (00:11:27:00)
o He was older than everyone else he trained with; Lenger was twenty-five and the
other men were eighteen and nineteen (00:11:36:00)
�
Lenger spent six weeks at Great Lakes and after the six weeks, he had one week at home
before having to report back to the Navy Pier in Chicago (00:11:46:00)
o The men spent a little more than a week at the Navy Pier before they shipped over
to Seneca, Illinois, where the LSTs were being built; from Seneca, each man
boarded his new LST (00:12:08:00)
o Chicago was good to the men; Lenger could get on the “L” trains for nothing and
take it to Benton Harbor, Michigan and then hitch-hike his way back home to
Grand Rapids (00:12:50:00)
Following Great Lakes, Lenger first went to the Navy base in Little Creek, Virginia, then
to the base at Little Neck and finally to Camp Bradford, also in Virginia (00:13:29:00)
o Each base had different training for the men, including: working with gasoline,
fire fighting, and at Camp Bradford, more gun training with the 20 mm, the 40
mm, and rifles (00:13:37:00)
All the training was all standard for men getting ready to deploy on an
LST (00:14:24:00)
Lenger’s timing was just right to catch his LST; some of the other men who were before
him spent more time training in different areas, such as being the quartermaster on the
ship (00:14:33:00)
o They had three quartermasters on their ship, the maximum allowed limit, but
Lenger asked to be a quartermaster (00:14:50:00)
When a man on the ship said there was not room for advancement and the
ship was full, Lenger said he did not mind it because he had not joined the
military for advancement (00:15:02:00)
During the 1940s, Lenger’s father owned a twenty-five foot cruiser on
Lake Michigan and they would charter the boat; when they did so, Lenger
worked with the charters, a job he enjoyed (00:15:20:00)
o Lenger did not want to work in the engine room because of the heat; when he
worked as quartermaster, Lenger had to change the clocks whenever they went
into a new time zone and when he went into the engine room to change the
clocks, especially at the Equator, it got pretty hot (00:15:43:00)
o Being a quartermaster meant Lenger was partly in charge of the ship; in the
wheelhouse, there were three men: one was on the log, the second was on the
wheel, and the third was on the enunciator, which controlled the speed of the ship
(00:16:10:00)
Lenger and the other quartermasters worked in four hour shifts, so they
would change positions (00:16:38:00)
Also, every fifteen minutes, a quartermaster had to go to the back of the
ship and keep a log of the weather conditions; if anything happened,
information would be logged (00:16:53:00)
Chicago liked the sailors and Norfolk did not (00:17:28:00)
o The men went out only once while in Norfolk (00:17:36:00)
They started walking and then decided to take a bus; however, the bus had
a sign that read “sailors and soldiers, thirty-five cents; civilians, ten cents”
(00:17:41:00)
The men did not have that kind of money; Lenger’s paycheck was only
four dollars a month, so he did not have a lot of money (00:17:52:00)
�
The men hiked around for a little bit and it was not uncommon to see signs
in the lawn saying “sailors and dogs keep off the grass” (00:18:04:00)
Lenger could see their point because there were so many young
kids fresh out of high school (00:18:14:00)
They eventually stopped at a restaurant that had ten cents cups of coffee,
but thirty-five cent cups for soldiers (00:18:24:00)
Lenger was in Virginia for about three weeks to finish his training; once the training was
complete, the Navy shipped the men back to Navy Pier and then onto the LST in Seneca,
a suburb of Chicago, maybe forty or fifty miles outside of the city (00:18:46:00)
o The city was on the Illinois River, so the men took their LST, which had already
been launched by the time they got there, down the river to the Mississippi River,
which took them down to New Orleans (00:19:17:00)
o Once in New Orleans, they put the mast and anything with height onto the ship
because they could not fit under the bridges otherwise (00:19:33:00)
Normally, ship went about eight or nine knots but going down the
Mississippi, they hit thirteen knots (00:19:41:00)
o Lenger only got off the LST once it reached New Orleans (00:20:05:00)
Lenger and his wife had their third child while he was sailing down the river to New
Orleans (00:20:15:00)
o After about a week in training, Lenger received word that he had another son, so
he received permission to take a plane home; he was home over Sunday to have
the baby baptized and then he had to leave on Monday (00:20:21:00)
o When Lenger went into the service, he sold his business; he and his wife had three
weeks following his physical examination to decided if they wanted to sell their
house, their car, or their business (00:21:22:00)
They knew they were going to sell the business and that gave Lenger’s
wife money to survive while he was gone (00:21:41:00)
o Lenger also took out life insurance, although he did need to; the Army took ten
dollars of his pay every month, leaving him with four dollars to spend
(00:21:55:00)
o At the time, Lenger’s wife made forty-eight dollars a week and they had a twentyfive dollar payment for the house, which they decided to keep; because of this,
she could only spend around a dollar a day to feed the family (00:22:08:00)
Deployment (00:23:04:00)
From New Orleans, Lenger and the other men sailed the LST through the Gulf of Mexico
to Panama; there were rough seas on the journey and Lenger got seasick to the point that
he thought he was going to die (00:23:04:00)
o He eventually got over the seasickness and never got seasick again (00:23:21:00)
o During the journey, Lenger’s LST sailed with two other LSTs that had left New
Orleans at the same time (00:23:32:00)
o The LST docked in Panama for about three days before sailing through the
Panama Canal (00:23:39:00)
One of the men on the LST got appendicitis, so they stopped in Mexico to drop him off
before continuing on to San Diego, California, where the ship picked up a lot more of its
supplies before taking off (00:23:48:00)
�
The men on the LST had it good because they stopped at submarine bases
for their supplies and the submariners always received the best food of
anybody (00:24:06:00)
The standard LST is three hundred and twenty-eight feet long with a crew of one hundred
and four and eight or nine officers (00:24:36:00)
o Lenger’s LST was the flagship after it reached Honolulu, Hawaii, so they had to
take on six more officers to command the other LSTs (00:24:46:00)
o At the outbreak of the war, Winston Churchill wrote to President Roosevelt
saying the British had a lot of problems, one of which was that to invade France,
they would have to use the tiny Higgins boats, which would make their soldiers
cannon-fodder for the Germans (00:25:12:00)
Churchill wrote that they needed a ship that could carry tanks and bigger
equipment so that when the British landed, they had heavier weapons to
fight back with (00:25:36:00)
Roosevelt gave the letter to a Mr. Niedermeyer, who was in charge of the
ships, and when he looked at what the British had designed for four years,
none of which worked, Niedermeyer took the envelope the letter had come
on and drew the design for an LST (00:25:55:00)
When they took the design back to Churchill, he said it was exactly what
they needed, only a little bit bigger so that they could carry in the larger
tanks (00:26:27:00)
o When they began construction of the LST fleet, the Navy stopped construction on
an aircraft carrier to get the steel needed (00:26:43:00)
o According to stories, when the first LST arrived in Hawaii, the personnel were
surprised by the bow doors of the ship; other ships had to sit at a dock to unload
while the LST could sail right on shore, open its doors, lower a ramp, and
personnel could drive equipment on and off (00:27:07:00)
Lenger’s LST did not carry any military supplies or equipment when it left San Diego;
they picked up a lot of that in Hawaii (00:27:56:00)
o One thing they picked up was an LCT, a hundred and thirty-eight foot craft used
to ferry smaller supplies from the cargo ships to shore (00:28:01:00)
The journey across the Pacific was long; it took about three weeks before the men saw
land anywhere (00:28:33:00)
o They had good weather and at noon everyday, the men took an azimuth of the sun
from just outside the wheelhouse; after getting the exact time and taking three
readings, the men went into a chartroom behind the wheelhouse and charted the
location of the ship (00:28:39:00)
At night, just before sun-down and when the first star became visible, the
men took a reading with a sextant of the North Star and two other stars
and by using those measurements, they could also find out where they
were (00:29:13:00)
On cloudy days, the men could not do this, so they read the logs which
told them how fast the ship was going and in what direction, so the men
could plot where the ship was and often, they came close (00:29:44:00)
o At this point, Lenger’s LST was sailing in a convoy with eight or ten other LSTs
and two destroyer escorts (00:30:14:00)
�
The convoy did not encounter any Japanese submarines because it was a
little hard for the Japanese to attack them with a torpedo because the ship
did not have a large draft (00:30:38:00)
The men worried about kamikazes more than anything else (00:31:01:00)
From Hawaii, the convoy crossed the Equator and went to Tulagi, then to the Russell
Islands, and finally to Guadalcanal (00:31:11:00)
o Along the way, the convoy was picking up different Marine units and their
supplies (00:31:25:00)
o When the ship crossed the Equator, the men woke up that morning and they only
got three beans on a plate to eat; when they got to the end of the line, someone
asked each man quietly if they would like an egg and if they said yes, then an egg
was smashed over their head (00:31:47:00)
Another man had to carry a heavy chain around his neck all day and
another had to take a bedpan to all the men who needed to go to the
bathroom because using the “head” was forbidden (00:32:11:00)
Eventually, each man had to climb a ladder at the back of the ship and
then crawl under fifty feet of canvas; when they tried to climb the ladder,
others used a salt water hose against the men, trying to knock them off and
when they went under the canvas, the men were hit with two by fours
before being hit with more water (00:32:33:00)
Finally, the men went before “King Neptune”, were they had to get down
on their hands and knees and were shocked with electricity before being
told to kiss the deck (00:33:16:00)
Lenger’s initiation on the LST was a little rougher than on some other
ships, such as an aircraft carrier, because those ships were not subject to
being on land (00:34:24:00)
At night, the LST faced the possibility of being taken over by a
Japanese attack; the LST did not have the firepower to fight back
against an attack (00:34:36:00)
Part of the initiation was to prepare the men for what would
happen if they were captured so they would not talk (00:34:58:00)
Lenger did not go ashore for long periods, but he did go ashore (00:35:31:00)
o One time, when they were not on duty, Lenger and another man went on the
beach and climbed in the hills; when they did so, the two men found a Japanese
machine gun with live ammunition (00:35:41:00)
Lenger wanted to take it but they were was not allowed to, so the men left
it alone (00:36:00:00)
o When they stopped in the Russell Islands, Lenger also worked as a store keeper
and on their way back from getting supplies, the men spotted a river, so they took
a small boat from the LST and went up the river (00:36:24:00)
On their way up the river, the men saw a village and they talked with the
villagers as much as they could; Lenger ended up getting a hand-carved
walking stick from the people living in the village (00:36:57:00)
After the LSTs was fully loaded, the convoy went to Ulithi to join with the rest of the
fleet and from Ulithi, the fleet attacked Okinawa (00:37:54:00)
�o By now, there were about one thousand ships sailing together towards Okinawa;
the aircraft carriers were about five miles behind the main force, the battleships
were in the next row, then the destroyers and LSTs designed to fire rockets, and
finally the LSTs carrying soldiers (00:38:21:00)
o The troop-carrying LSTs actually attacked the beach directly while all the other
ships provided the fire power (00:38:42:00)
Battle of Okinawa (00:38:51:00)
At three or four o’clock on the morning of the invasion, the carriers sent in their aircraft
to start bombing the beaches (00:38:51:00)
Lenger’s general quarters station on the ship was manning a 20 mm anti-aircraft gun
(00:39:21:00)
o There were twelve 20 mm anti-aircraft guns on the ship, five 40 mm anti-aircraft
guns, and one twenty-forty mm anti-aircraft gun; it took nearly forty percent of
the ship’s crew to man the anti-aircraft guns (00:39:28:00)
The crewmen manning the 40 mm had to wear helmets and earphones and
they had to wait until they heard the command to fire; they never fired
unless told to do so (00:39:50:00)
When enemy planes were a couple of miles away, then the 40 mm guns
received orders to fire and if they came within a mile, then the 20 mm
guns received permission to fire (00:40:07:00)
Although the men had training, things were a lot different when they got
into action (00:40:26:00)
There was a viewfinder on the top of each gun and in training, the
men followed a plane pulling a flag; as they followed the plane, the
gun moved too so that they could hit their target (00:40:34:00)
After the first day, looking through the viewfinder was like looking
through a telescope; instead, Lenger followed the path of the tracer
shells in his gun (00:40:54:00)
After the carrier aircraft attacked the beach, the battleships fired on the beach with their
sixteen-inch guns (00:41:44:00)
o The concussion from the guns was so amazing that it felt like their clothes would
be shaken right off of the men (00:41:54:00)
o Some of the battleships were only a thousand yards away from the LST when they
fired their guns (00:42:17:00)
Once the battleships finished bombarding the beach, the LSTs went in (00:40:12:00)
o Lenger’s LST had to go to the beach to get rid of all the Marines and their
equipment; there were five hundred Marines on the ship plus two hundred and
fifty Seabees (00:42:45:00)
o On either side of the ship were metal pontoons and in order to get the LCT off the
top of the ship, they had to get ride of the pontoons; when they had unloaded the
pontoons, the Seabees used them to construct bridges out to other ships so that
trucks could be used to unload them (00:42:59:00)
o The Marines went right off the front of the boat and were armed with trucks and
tanks (00:43:39:00)
�
o On about the third day, the pontoons were gone, so the men listed the ship eleven
degrees to starboard and once it was at that angle, someone cut the lines securing
the LCT to the deck and it slipped into the water (00:43:57:00)
They used to LCT to ferry soldiers from the troop ships to the beach
(00:44:27:00)
When they first landed, the LST did not see much Japanese gun fire (00:44:42:00)
o On the first day, the battleships rounds were impacting the beach and four or five
times, the shore battery would fire back; the LST simple sat underneath as the
barrages flew overhead and eventually, the Marines took the guns (00:44:44:00)
However, on the first day, three planes attacked the LST and everyday, there would be
kamikazes attacking; Lenger had a ring-side seat on the 20 mm because sometimes the
planes were too far away and the men would watch dogfights between the Americans and
Japanese (00:45:16:00)
o The Japanese Zero was lighter than the American Corsair and on the first couple
of days, a Zero would dive with a Corsair behind it and when the Zero pulled up,
the Corsair could not, so it inevitably crashed into the water (00:45:55:00)
After a couple of days, the American pilots figured out the tactic and to
not follow the Zero all the way (00:46:23:00)
o Many of the Japanese planes that the men saw were kamikazes and Lenger did see
ships hit by kamikaze attacks (00:46:40:00)
o Apart from some bullet holes, Lenger’s LST was never hit but they did have some
close calls (00:47:08:00)
One time, Lenger received the order to commence firing and when he
pulled the trigger, a shell jammed in the breach; when he called back, a
seaman told him to take the barrel off and throw it over the side of ship
before the shell blew up (00:47:24:00)
They eventually brought Lenger a new barrel for the gun so he
could continue firing (00:48:12:00)
Once they had fired two magazines through the gun, the men had to
change the barrel because if it overheated, the barrel’s rifling would
degrade and the shell would not fly correctly (00:48:14:00)
During one kamikaze attack, the plane was coming at the LST and the 40
mm received the orders to commence firing; because the LST was all
alone, the kamikaze focused on them (00:48:49:00)
When Lenger received the order, he emptied one canister then
another into the kamikaze and when he was getting ready to crash
into the ship, the plane pulled up and missed the ship by about
twenty feet (00:49:11:00)
The plane eventually crashed between the LST and a light cruiser
and blew up (00:50:16:00)
o There were kamikaze attacks every day to the point that the most sleep the men
got on any day during the first thirty days was three hours (00:50:30:00)
It reached the point that Lenger and his assistant stayed at their gun and
took turns manning the gun and sleeping (00:50:40:00)
The kamikazes also attacked at night (00:50:49:00)
�
Sometimes when the kamikazes attacked at night, the men could
not see them, so the ships made a blanket of smoke so the
kamikazes could not see the ships (00:50:52:00)
Once they had landed the Marines, the LST went back and picked up eight hundred Army
soldiers and their equipment and landed them in a different location; they were moving
troops around based on where they were needed (00:51:31:00)
After thirty days, the LST pulled out of Okinawa because the men were exhausted and
returned to Ulithi (00:52:03:00)
o The men had five or six days in Ulithi while others checked the ship over because
they had run aground on some coral reefs; the ship lost some oil and the two
propellers were roughed up (00:52:22:00)
o They said there was too much damage to fix at Ulithi, so they had to sail the ship
to the Philippines, namely Subic Bay on Luzon, where they got the ship fixed up
and painted to make it look like a proper ship again (00:52:59:00)
From the Philippines, the LST took pilots and supplies from the P-38 aircraft to the island
of Ie Shima, a small island near Okinawa where the P-38s could provide escort to
bombers attacking Tokyo and other Japanese cities (00:53:25:00)
o The men arrived on the island about two weeks after well-known war
correspondent Ernie Pyle died and the men took pictures of the monument others
had erected in Pyle’s memory (00:54:35:00)
The attacks did not slow down as the fighting for Okinawa waned; the Japanese just kept
coming and coming (00:55:19:00)
o The Japanese had so many planes that after the war, the men found out they had
six thousand kamikazes waiting for when the fleet attacked Japan (00:55:23:00)
Lenger knew that attack was coming because he eventually went back to
working with the charts (00:55:38:00)
After Okinawa, the LST went back to the Philippines (00:55:57:00)
The war ended while the LST was at Okinawa (00:56:06:00)
o The men heard guns firing at night and assumed the Japanese were attacking
again, so they rushed to their guns and the first thing Lenger heard when he put on
his headphones was the war was over (00:56:12:00)
o Lenger then told his assistant the war was over and he did not believe Lenger
(00:56:24:00)
Eventually, LST went back to the Philippines to pick up supplies and then took the
supplies to Japan (00:56:38:00)
o When the Japanese signed the official surrender agreement, the LST was sailing
from Manila to Japan; the men did not see the actual ceremony (00:56:51:00)
o The LST first landed in Yokohama, where they unload supplies for the Army and
afterwards, the men received a day liberty (00:57:04:00)
o After unload, the LST left Yokohama to pick up another load of supplies from the
Philippines; however, Lenger had accumulated enough points and he was able to
stay behind on the Philippines when the ship returned to Japan (00:57:18:00)
o When the men had their liberty leave from the ship, they found the Japanese to be
very curious; however, the men could not talk with the Japanese, so they just
looked around (00:57:43:00)
�
They looked around and took some pictures but at that point, the men did
not even care if they got pictures (00:57:57:00)
When the LST was in New Orleans, Lenger asked the captain if it would be okay for him
to take a camera aboard; the captain said it was, so long as when Lenger developed the
film, the captain got to see them (00:58:17:00)
o Lenger not only took his regular camera, but also an 8 mm movie camera;
however, he only had a few rolls of film, so he had to be careful what he took
pictures of (00:58:38:00)
When Lenger would ship items home, he stuck rolls of the film into the
box after it had been checked so his wife could see what was going on
(00:59:01:00)
o Whenever Lenger was at general quarters, he did not dare take the camera with
him; he was on the gun and that was it (00:59:49:00)
o When he was also on duty in the wheelhouse, Lenger was not able to film
anything and at Okinawa, he did not have time to take pictures and he did not dare
take any (01:00:01:00)
o He does have film of regular life aboard the LST, as well as the ceremony for
crossing the Equator and the launching of the LCT (01:00:47:00)
When Lenger was ready to get out of the Navy, there were so many men in the same
position as him on an island that the Navy did not have enough food to feed them all
(01:01:34:00)
o They eventually put him on a transport that took him to San Francisco, where he
stayed for four or five days before getting on a train to Chicago, where he was
discharged at Great Lakes (01:01:59:00)
o His wife came down to Great Lakes to pick him up once he was discharged
(01:02:23:00)
Post-Military Life (01:03:00:00)
When he got home, Lenger tried to go back into business but things were rough because
rationing of supplies was still in place (01:03:00:00)
o Lenger called all the former people he worked with but none could give Lenger
what he needed, so he had to go find other suppliers (01:03:14:00)
o When he tried to purchase beef, the man said Lenger needed ration stamps, which
Lenger had given to the man who purchased his store when he went into the
service and he would have to pay under the table (01:03:46:00)
o He did this for awhile but he was not making any money, so Lenger gave the
business up (01:04:22:00)
o Instead, he went and worked for his brother’s business at $1.75 an hour;
eventually, Lenger got a job in sales at [Chester Locks] (01:04:39:00)
He went all over Michigan for the job, but because people were on strike,
his checks were not delivered, so Lenger quit (01:05:02:00)
Finally, Lenger ended up working for a business called Gardner-Denver, which made
pneumatic tools (01:05:14:00)
o Lenger originally did not know what most of tools did that he was selling, but he
received training and used “his dumbness” to help him sell more (01:05:29:00)
�
The first time he went out, he went to a tool- and dye- shop, said he was
selling the product but he did not know how they worked and asked if the
workers in the shop could show him (01:05:38:00)
A man showed Lenger how it worked and Lenger said he would leave the
machine overnight and come back the next morning; when he came back,
the man said he needed a dozen of the machines (01:05:54:00)
o Lenger stayed with the company for awhile but he ended up selling too many
tools (01:06:25:00)
One time, Lenger’s sales manager pointed out that Lenger was trying to
get an order from a competitor; Lenger asked if he could continue because
he believed that he could get an order out of them (01:06:45:00)
About a month later, Lenger got a large order from the competing
company because their equipment did not do as much work as
Lenger’s equipment did (01:07:12:00)
o It got to the point that they were sending Lenger all over the country because
other salesmen had sold products but the products kept breaking, so Lenger had to
go an fix them (01:07:40:00)
The company wanted Lenger to move to Quincy, Illinois but he had one
child in high school, one in grade school, and two in college, so there was
no way he was going to move; he told them to ask him in a few years but
not at that moment (01:08:22:00)
The company ended up taking away small parts of Lenger’s territory in an
effort to get him to move, so he gave them six months notice and went into
manufacturing the tools himself, but only for a few years (01:08:45:00)
Lenger’s manufacturing company originally made dye-grinders for fifty dollars and sold
them for around one hundred dollars; however, one day they saw there was a thirty-nine
dollar grinder for sale (01:09:13:00)
o Lenger and his wife went to Japan and talked with five companies and said he
wanted to just buy the rotor and cylinder, but a sales man said that would cost him
more than the tool itself (01:09:35:00)
o When Lenger asked what he meant, the man explained the Japanese government
subsidized the whole tool, not parts; when Lenger asked the price of the parts, he
found he could make them cheaper, so he figured he could sell them to the
Japanese companies (01:10:01:00)
However, the man said that would not work either because when Lenger
would ship the parts, they charged a one hundred percent import duty,
which raised the price, whereas shipping to America only involved a four
percent duty (01:10:20:00)
o When Lenger got back home, he told his wife that they were going to sell the
company because they could not compete with the cheaper products (01:10:45:00)
o Lenger then went back to Gardner-Denver and because he knew the president of
the company; neither man drank, so when the company had parties, they sat
together (01:10:53:00)
The president was not there that day, so Lenger told a man in the company
to start selling their tools at thirty-nine dollars and they could compete
with the Japanese tools; the man disregarded the information, saying the
�
company had been around too long to worry about the Japanese and four
years later, the company was out of business (01:11:15:00)
When he sold the manufacturing business, Lenger did not quite know what to do, but he
loved traveling, so he told his wife he was going to open at travel agency (01:11:56:00)
o They had gone to a travel agency a couple of times and had received bad
information; one time, Lenger and his wife went to Portugal and when Lenger
asked what kind of clothes he should take, the travel agent said it was February,
so they probably had snow (01:12:06:00)
So, Lenger took heavy clothes and the temperature turned out to be in the
eighties (01:12:24:00)
Another time, Lenger and his wife went to the Canary Island and Lenger
told the travel agent he wanted to go to Africa and the agent told him to
make the reservations once Lenger was on the island; when he tried to, the
people of the islands told Lenger the flight was full and reservations were
needed a month in advance (01:12:29:00)
o Lenger started the travel agency with his wife and they grew to be one of the
largest agencies in Grand Rapids before Lenger sold the business (01:13:03:00)
o Mission: India eventually wanted Lenger to work for them because for twentyfive years Lenger and his wife went to India every year to take pictures do fund
raising and programs (01:13:19:00)
Lenger learned a lot of respect in the Navy; no matter where he worked or what he did,
there was always someone over him (01:13:46:00)
o If Lenger was in charge of it, everyone graduating from high school would serve
for two years, if only to receive the regimentation and help get their feet on the
ground (01:14:15:00)
o Lenger and his comrades were very fortunate; they had canvas to sleep on and
good food to eat (01:14:46:00)
Lenger loved the twelve to four watch at night because after the cooks
finished their work, they came up to the wheelhouse and brought a cup of
coffee and sometimes a fresh pie (01:14:56:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LengerS
Title
A name given to the resource
Lenger, Sidney (Interview outline and video, 1 of 2), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lenger, Sidner
Description
An account of the resource
Sid Linger was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1918. After graduation from high school, Lenger went into business with his father, who ran several stores in the Grand Rapids. He was drafted into the Navy in 1944, and was assigned as a quartermaster on a new LST that was being built at Seneca, Illinois. He sailed on the LST down the Mississippi River, through the Gulf and Mexico and the Panama Canal and into the Pacific Ocean. Lenger's LST transported Marines as part of the massive invasion of Okinawa, where they witnessed many kamikaze attacks. Following the battle, the LST transported the supplies needed for P-38 fighter escorts and supplies to Japan before Lenger left the service. Included with the interview is a video Lenger made himself, combining official Navy training films and video he filmed himself while aboard the LST (see 2 of 2).
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-01-04
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87f0c00c983e86ba1a07f68316d6e039.mp4
6289a15f0180b7df72892d9af8ecc9e0
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0f980f56fdbd700ff6c69a06c43e09c8.pdf
ad085677bed69e71f4f778016f3321f7
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
World War II
Dewey Lenger
Length of Interview (01:06:20)
(00:13) Family and Work Life Pre-Enlistment
Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on may 21, 1922. Completed grades 1-4 in
Hopkins, Michigan
Father was a manufacturer of furniture in Hopkins, Michigan until the Great
Depression hit (00:33).
Father sold popcorn for a bit and then bought and sold used cars for the rest of his
work life (01:07).
Had 3 brothers and 3 sisters. He was the 3rd child born (01:42).
Completed high school at Davis Tech in downtown Grand Rapids (01:57).
He worked in a Muskegon factory doing machine work for about a 1-½ years
after high school. He carpooled with other men and worked 10-12 hours a day.
They manufactured goods for the Navy (02:15).
At the time US Highway 31 was a two-lane road and was not a pleasant drive,
especially in the winter months (03:00).
Dewey was employed at the factory when Pearl Harbor occurred and he heard of
the event on the radio (03:10).
He did not pay much attention to events in Europe prior to the attack on Pearl
Harbor (03:28).
Could have obtained a draft deferment due to his job at the factory (03:53).
Actually saw an article in the paper announcing that exams for flying cadets were
being held. It was a 3-hour exam, which Dewey passed. He then received a
physical and was released from the draft board (04:51).
He received a letter from the war department stating he needed to report, in
Detroit for service the day after he got the letter (07:00).
(07:40) Enlistment and Training
In 1942 Dewey and his cousin, who enlisted at the same time, drove to Detroit to
report for duty.
Dewey had been interested in flying since a young age (08:06).
Once in Detroit they were among hundreds of other men and waited for their
names to be called to find out their next destination. He got a train for 2 days and
3 nights and then arrived in Florida. Next, they were put on a truck, which took
them to Miami Beach (08:30).
They stayed in a hotel (09:40).
Basic military training lasted about 8-10 weeks in Miami (09:55).
Training took place on golf courses. Consisted of shooting and arms training,
discipline, and field maneuvers (10:23).
The drill sergeants had previous service experience. Dewey adjusted to military
life easily (10:40).
�
Essentially, all the men he was with were part of flight training (11:15).
They took tests and physicals before being sent to the next level of training
(11:39).
After basic military training, Dewey was sent to Cincinnati, Ohio for College
Training Detachment (CTD) (11:48).
He had been a sergeant in the Michigan Guard, which allowed him to move ahead
(professionally) quicker (11:50).
While in Cincinnati they completed some college work, military training, and
general conditioning. Prior to WWII pilots were required to have 2 years of
college experience. The CTD program satisfied this requirement (13:00).
Exam made individuals eligible (14:00).
Spent 2 months in Cincinnati. They studied at night, because they had little
money to do other activities (14:12).
Dorms were divided into upperclassmen and lowerclassmen (14:50).
After Cincinnati he was sent to San Antonio, Texas to a classification center
where he took more tests and completed physicals (15:34).
Was sent to Randolph Air Force Base for a heart check, which he passed. He was
ale to continue on with his unit for pre-flight school (16:00).
Pre-flight school and training consisted of groundwork, such as, map, history,
Morse code, and drills. There was also an emphasis on aircraft identification
(16:38).
After pre-flight training you would be sent to a new location to learn how to fly.
Dewey was sent to a small, private base in Stamford, Texas in the panhandle.
Primary school for flying (17:52).
His instructors were civilians and he trained on a single engine, open cockpit
aircraft, PT-19 (18:04).
He was stationed here during the fall and winter. He had an excellent instructor.
His first solo flight was thrilling and he learned various types of maneuvers,
including inverted flying (18:36).
He spent 9 weeks in Stamford, Texas and had roughly 2 hours of flight time a
day. He also continued to learn navigation and other essential skills in ground
school (20:00).
There were no major accidents or incidents during this period of training (21:00).
After primary school you would continue on to basic flight training. Here Dewey
learned to fly a more sophisticated, larger aircraft, the BT-13 (21:34).
Flight simulation was being incorporated into the program (23:00).
This was more dangerous school and people were lost or injured during training.
At this point, men began to be weeded out of the program based on performance
and capabilities (23:15).
During this time, he stayed on base mostly, because there was not much to do.
The residents were hospitable to the cadets (24:45).
The next step of training was advanced flight school, which involved a twin
engine, full instrument aircraft, the AT-10 (25:07).
An aspect of training was to fly with a hood over your head. This forced and
individual to rely only on the instruments for navigation (25:30).
�
He did not keep track of flight time. At times they would fly hundreds of miles,
which allowed the to experience day to night flying (26:13).
Night flying meant you had to adjust your perspective of flying. More accidents
occurred during this phase of training (27:14).
Dewey almost collided with another plane (28:00).
Once advanced training was completed, you were commissioned. Dewey was
commissioned on June 27, 1944 (28:43).
He was sent home for 10 days before active duty (29:10).
(29:22) Active Duty Texas
He spent a few weeks at administration school in San Antonio, Texas before
going to Waco Field, where he did maintenance and test flights of planes. This
was primarily the A-10 (29:26).
There were holding stations where men could volunteer to fly specific planes.
Dewey wanted to fly the P-38 Lightning (fighter plane) (29:56).
He spent a 1 ½ in Waco and then went to Greensburg, North Carolina and New
Jersey by train (30:44).
At this time, he was not trained in the C-46 or C-47 (31:22).
(31:30) Active Duty Europe
From Camp Kilmer in New Jersey he boarded a passenger ship bound for
Scotland. The trip lasted 7 days and was initially rough (31:48).
Many men became seasick (33:06).
The camp in Scotland was crude, wet, and muddy. They stayed in barracks. Once
your name was called you took a train to the next destination (33:21).
He went to an RAF base, a large field with permanent structures (33:52).
His first flight in a C-47 was as a co-pilot and they took a glider to another field
(34:20).
There was continued training covering night flights and large formations (35:00).
On one 3-3-½ hour mission Dewey was paired with a pilot who had vertigo and
could not fly. He took over as first pilot and maintained this position (35:27).
Primarily, flew alone and at times had gliders in tow (36:110.
Flying the C-47, he carried troops and cargo to the European fronts (36:47).
There was a specific flight pattern followed to and from the island of England
(37:23).
One group that he was with would not fly over any aircraft in the English Channel
due to the fear of friendly fire (38:00).
Dewey flew to France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, and Austria (38:37).
o (39:23) Battle of the Bulge
His mission was to bring troops and equipment to the front. He
was able to make a drop in a field and as he flew back to England
the only lights he saw were from Paris.
Once they returned the fog rolled in and they were grounded for 3
days. They could not get supplies to the front (40:22).
Once the fog lifted, they immediately continued the mission and
took men and cargo to the front (41:05).
�
They also took fuel to Patton, because he was moving quickly. The
fuel was stored in jerry cans and locked down (41:15).
When they flew longer distances they would store fuel in tanks behind the
bulkheads. They needed this surplus, because they did not always return to base at
night (41:48).
Many times they simply landed in fields (42:30).
Moved to a base in northern France with a short, single runway. They lived in
tents there (42:55).
o (45:14) Operation Varsity
There prepared and practiced for the mission, but did not know the
exact nature of it (45:23).
Dewey’s plane carried Canadians. They were towards the front of
the formation. The leaders dropped their paratroopers and then the
rest followed in sequence (46:33).
There was anti-aircraft fire and they were flying very low, about
400-500 feet (47:18).
The parachutes were rigged to open when the paratroopers dropped
from the plane. There was no margin for error and pilots had to fly
level (48:05).
This was the most dangerous mission he knowingly flew (48:30).
Gliders came in behind them (48:50).
Saw commander and roommate go down with their airplane, but he
was too busy trying to complete his task to care at that moment
(49:00).
Formation broke up (49:17).
He was lucky to not get hit (49:13).
After the war he stayed at his base for a time and then moved south of Paris to
Orly Field (49:45).
Last months in Europe he transported men, food, clothing, etc (50:30).
Went to Tempelhof, Germany (50:55).
Communication was poor with the French primarily. There was limited contact
with civilians. Worked mostly and transported wounded (52:58).
Point system (52:54).
Received order to return home June 1946 (53:25).
When they did have time off they took trains and buses to the cities (53:37).
(54:50) After the War
He took a train from Paris to Munich where he got a physical check and then took
a train to Le Havre, France where he boarded a victory ship to America (55:00).
The ship was small and it was a rough ride, but they arrived at Camp Kilmer, New
Jersey safely (55:34).
From there he went to Chicago to be processed and then was sent home (56:01).
He did not join the reserves right away, but rather he did nothing for 3 months and
helped his dad with his business. However, he did join the reserves within 6
months of being active duty (56:20).
He retired from the reserves June 27, 1976 as lieutenant colonel (57:08).
�
He took classes and marched in parades. Would have liked it to operate more as it
does today. He also taught classes and was able to do some flying (57:50).
He started his own business repairing and transporting mobile homes (59:27).
He really enjoyed his time in the service and would do it again (01:00:00).
Special memories (01:03:30).
Overall, he learned to be self-sufficient and more independent, even more so than
bomber pilots (01:05:45).
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LengerD
Title
A name given to the resource
Lenger, Dewey (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lenger, Dewey
Description
An account of the resource
Dewey Lenger was part of the United States Army Air Force during World War II. He took a cadets exam that allowed him to bypass the general draft and eventually become a pilot. He was set to Europe and assigned to fly transport planes, which he had not trained in, and learned to tow gliders and drop paratroops as well as regular cargo missions. He flew first from a British base, and later from a French one. He ferried fuel to Patton's army, dropped supplies for American troops during the Battle of the Bulge, and carried Canadian paratroopers during Operation Varsity.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army Air Corps
United States. Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-02-01
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3945975e2ec80a7ed344581a9d015431.mp4
14ea60466305ff6f1ee64124489c4754
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4f76f78191b095f85b4697bd3d6d8def.pdf
70d564da28f395e98a0410a8690c5f00
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Name of Interviewee: Ronald Leistra
Name of War: Korean War
Length of Interview: (00:08:50)
Pre-Enlistment
Enlisted because he knew he probably would be drafted (0:40)
Enlisted in the Navy because it was a better route than the Army (1:00)
Training
Boot camp was the toughest part of his time in the Navy (1:40)
Marching, classes, testing, rolling clothes to fit into sea bags (2:30)
Commander would let them practice rolling clothes in the latrine at night (3:15)
Enlistment
Was sent to a naval air station in Barbers Point, HI for two years (4:10)
Went to the beach, played tennis, went to Honolulu for fun (4:35)
Worked in a special unit that handled maps, and delivered them to aircraft carriers headed to
Korea (5:00)
Because it was a special unit, they did not have to stand watch or have inspections (5:00)
Eight hour days, free weekends (5:10)
Once a week, one person had to stay in the safe where they housed the top secret maps, in case of
spies (5:50)
Reassigned to Whidbey Island, another naval air station in Washington state (7:15)
Post-Enlistment
Went to Washington State College and the University of Washington on the GI Bill (7:20)
Became a teacher at Portland Community College (7:30)
Taught for 41 years (7:55)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LeistraR
Title
A name given to the resource
Leistra, Ronald M. (Interview outline and video), 2005
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Leistra, Ronald M.
Description
An account of the resource
Ronald Leistra served in the US Navy during the Korean War. He enlisted in the Navy because he knew he had a very good chance of being drafted. During his time in the service, Ronald served at Barbers Point in Hawaii, and at Whidbey Island in Washington. His units handled maps and made sure they were secure.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Brinks, Isaac (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2005-05-22
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c70fa7c654e5541a02501493e83e90c0.mp4
da348d1792c8cf24364a4a8d11a1c639
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d44256ead1c04c77a83f1c61729eec8.pdf
cee2cde81ea931297648616b70541c22
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
BOB LEIBECKE
Born: Cincinnati, Ohio
Resides: Dayton, Ohio
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, October 6, 2012
Interviewer: Bob, can you start off with some background on yourself? To begin
with, where and when were you born?
I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, my father was a WWII vet, and we lived there briefly
when I was very young. He was recalled to active duty for the Korean War and from that
point forward he went back in and stayed back in after having served in WWII, so
although I was born in Cincinnati, I never really spent any time there, so it’s a series of
military posts and overseas assignments for my father.
Interviewer: Where did you wind up during high school?
All over the place--in Paris, France, and Prince George County, Virginia, are the two
places I went to high school.
Interviewer: When you were in Paris were you in an American school?
Yes, it was run for the Department of Defense. 1:01
Interviewer: What year did you graduate from high school then?
1965
Interviewer: Upon graduation what did you do?
Well, I had applied to the Citadel and VMI, and VMI was my first choice. I was
accepted there, so I entered VMI in 1965 and graduated in May of 1969 with a degree in
history.
1
�Interviewer: Now, talk a little bit about what kind of military training you were
getting at VMI, or how does that work into your curriculum?
Well, in those days VMI was considered a branch materiel school, so it was Army
ROTC, although you had a choice of Air Force and Marine Corps in those days. My
chosen branch was armor, I thought I was going to be assigned to armor, and we trained
in armor. When I say branch materiel we actually trained in that particular branch, so we
had tanks and stuff like that. 2:06 Commissioning in those days was mandatory, so I
believe ninety-five percent of my class was commissioned. Today that’s not true, but we
got commissioned and I believe about seventy percent of my class ended up in Vietnam
at some point. The military life—it’s a military college, but the actual U.S. Army part of
it was pretty much integrated into barracks life, the ROTC instructors, which were
regular Army and Air Force, were part of the tactical staff within the barracks, so in—one
of my historian roommates reflected in those days, it operated very much like a service
academy because everything was fused together. Not so much the case today, because
people don’t have to serve in the military after that.
Interviewer: So, did you have kind of that tightly regulated daily schedule in the
manner that you have in a service academy, like when you get up? 3:05
Certainly, no difference, no difference, I mean, uniforms, regulation, can’t wear civilian
clothes, I mean it was really like being in the army.
Interviewer: What sort of backgrounds did the students being with them and what
portion were army brats?
2
�There was a pretty good number of them, and I would say maybe half of the people there
were from Virginia, but half were from other states, and you find a pretty good portion of
people who were acquainted, one way or the other, with the military.
Interviewer: Was it relatively easy for you to adjust to that militarized life because
that was the world you lived in?
No, no, VMI is a very tough, harsh environment as would be any service academy or the
Citadel. You can’t say because my father was in the military it was going to make it any
easier for me. 4:01 It’s a—I don’t know how to describe the experience, either you get
it or you don’t, and there’s nothing that really prepares you for that.
Interviewer: There’s no mom at VMI.
No
Interviewer: Now, this is probably kind of an interesting time to be in, what is
essentially a service academy, 1965 to 1969. Vietnam ramps up significantly, you get
the Tet Offensive; you get the anti-war movement going on in the country, and all
this sort of stuff. What level of awareness did you have of what was going with
Vietnam or responses to Vietnam in those years?
Oh, there’s a high awareness of Vietnam, but not such a high awareness of what went on
in the rest of the country, because VMI is its own community. We’re within our own
post compound.
Interviewer: And it was not going to be a home for anti-war protests or things like
that.
No, not at all
3
�Interviewer: Not that group—so, did you have people who would come in, VMI
people who served in Vietnam and were telling stories about what it was like? 5:07
Oh, absolutely, the tactical staff there, they had all been in Vietnam. Alumni would come
back and talk to us and say, “Man, I was with the 82nd”, and whatever. We got some
stories, you know, and then through ROTC, it was being taught how to survive and it was
integrated into military science as the topic.
Interviewer: As you’re going through, are you pretty much expecting to wind up in
Vietnam?
Oh, absolutely, in fact, I made sure it happened.
Interviewer: You were determined? You actually wanted to go?
Yeah, because at the very end, before you graduate, you sign what’s called the “dream
sheet” of your assignments, and it was so simple, I just wrote down RVN, that’s all I had
to do, I didn’t even have to spell it out.
Interviewer: What motivated you and why did you want to do there? 6:04
I don’t know a sense of adventure perhaps, I don’t know.
Interviewer: I guess if there was a job to be done for the army it was primarily
there.
Yeah
Interviewer: So, you graduate in 1969, what happens then?
A week—in May, I forget the exact date in May, mid-May I’m going to say, a week later
I’m at Fort Benning signing in to the Officer Infantry Basic Course, and while I’m there
they say, “Do you want to sign-up for Airborne school and Ranger school?” “Oh yeah,
sure”, so I spent the first half, most of the summer in Infantry Officer Basic and there
4
�upon I signed up for Airborne school, and then when it came up for my Ranger class
assignment, that wasn’t going to be until February, the following February. Now this is
August that I’m finishing up Airborne school, so I end up going to Fort Ord, California.
7:06 I thought I was going to an infantry battalion at Fort Ord. I got out there and they
just do whatever they want to even though I was an Infantry Officer. They said, “Oh,
eventually you’re going to be in the transportation corps, go over to this truck company”,
out in the middle of nowhere, which is at camp—where was it? Oh, Hunter Liggett
Military Reservation, which is in the middle of nowhere. I ended up spending a couple of
months in a truck company. You’re supposed to be doing platoon work, you’re supposed
to be working with troops getting ready to go overseas, so that was there idea, so it was
working with troops, but it wasn’t infantry.
Interviewer: To back up a little bit, what sort of a curriculum did they have for
your officer school in the first place, the first school you go to?
It’s all basic infantry tactics, defense, familiarization with a number of different weapons,
a lot of map reading, basic soldiering skills. 8:09 Now, we already had that because we
were from ROTC, but they’re just taking it a step further.
Interviewer: Are you being now trained by people who have been to Vietnam and
come back?
Yeah, I would say just about—yeah, really
Interviewer: Were you learning things that you hadn’t learned at a previous level,
things that might be useful later?
Yes and no, some of it was repetitive
Interviewer: Then with jump school how did they run that?
5
�It lasted three weeks, physical conditioning, jumping out of a thirty-four foot tower,
eventually you get these big, high towers where they pull you up, 250 feet up—I think
they call it a 250 foot tower, and then release the parachute, and eventually you load up
on an airplane and you go and jump.
Interviewer: At this point, were they doing anything with helicopters, or just
airplanes?
It was just airplanes. 9:06
Interviewer: So, you’ve done that infantry training, you go to the truck unit, now
was that just a temporary layover?
Yeah, I think the wisdom of the army, in those days, they wanted you to serve in a troop
unit before going to Vietnam, and you’re supposed to do that. A buddy of mine, now in
Dayton, that owns a place, he was a little ahead of me, and they sent him to the 82nd
Airborne. I said, “Hey man that’s great, you actually go to go with an airborne unit
before you went”, because we were both in the 101st, and he said, “Man, they put me on
courts and borts”, they gave him a staff job before he was supposed to go and lead troops,
you know, so, you just don’t know what the army’s going to do.
Interviewer: You knew at this point that you were going to the 101st?
No, you don’t find that out until you get in country.
Interviewer: Now, is there a point where—you said there was a wish list where you
would go, and are you also able to sort of pick what unit you get assigned to or any
other options? 10:01
Do you mean as far as getting in the 101st?
Interviewer: Yeah
6
�No, in fact there’s a picture of a guy in the Ripcord book, his name is Smith, he was not
in my battalion, but he and I came into country together. We were down at Bien Hoa
waiting for out orders and we just lounged around there for a couple of days. There was
this big bulletin board and they would put the orders up, and Smith came running in the
door and said, “You guys saddle up, I think we’re going to the 101s”, and I think there
was kind of a groan. These were officers that were billeted together, and yeah, Smith's
in—his pictures in the book there.
Interviewer: So, why was there a groan for the 101st? What did the groan
represent?
Because of Hamburger Hill, and there were—I guess we’d been reading the press reports
and stuff and the 101st was kind of where the action was. Bear in mind, the Cav [1st
Cavalry Division]—we came in the first of May, the Cav was in Cambodia on that
incursion, so there was a whole lot of stuff going there, but I think we were seeing that
the casualties were coming out of the 101st. 11:05
Maybe there was a lot of shock and
awe going on in Cambodia, but we knew there was some nasty stuff going on with the
101st, which turned out to be true.
Interviewer: You are kind of learning bit by bit more about what is going on in
Vietnam? Back up a little bit again. How long did you spend with the truck unit?
I was there through the end of 1969 and then I packed up and headed back up to Fort
Benning to go to Ranger school. I was in Ranger school, I think, from around the first of
February through the end of April. I graduated from Ranger school, went back to
Virginia, packed, unpacked, drove down to Charleston Air Force Base, got on a plane and
went down to Panama for two weeks to jungle school, came back, packed, unpacked, and
7
�then went to Washington, caught a flight to the west coast to head on out to Vietnam.
12:05
Interviewer: How does Ranger school compare to the other schools you had been
to?
Ranger school is bad, I mean it’s awful, there’s no sleep, it’s just one constant—there’s a
certain amount of schooling, but it becomes one continuous patrol where you just never
stop, you know. You don’t get any sleep—there’s three phases, there’s three week at
Fort Benning, three weeks in the mountains in Georgia, and then three weeks in the
swamp in Florida, and Florida was probably the worst. You just—you’re in swamps all
the time. You’re supposed to do three jumps down there, but I only got to do two
because out mountain jump was cancelled because of high winds.
Interviewer: Was Florida ultimately good preparation for Vietnam or was it not for
your part of Vietnam?
Well, Florida’s not a jungle and it was still pretty chilly, we were winter Rangers, so it
was pretty cool down there. 13:04
Interviewer: What proportions of the people that start Ranger school finish it?
You know, I don’t know. I saw a recent movie and they showed all these people getting
washed out. I mean, I’m not sure—a lot, and they get a lot of people right in the
beginning where you have to be able to swim. Water, I mean you walk off the diving
board with a full pack of gear into a swimming pool blind folded and that panics people.
You know, like walking the plank on a pirate ship, full gear and all that. But at VMI I
had been drown proofed. In those days you could not graduate from VMI unless you
passed RAT swimming, and that was just one of the most brutal swimming classes, I
8
�mean, they made sure. So, in Ranger school I just walked off, plopped into the water and
swam to the side. It was like being back at VMI. 14:05
Interviewer: When you do that, do you keep your pack and your gear when you’re
swimming?
Yeah, because the idea is you would sink to the bottom. I didn’t sink; I went down a
little ways, popped up and started swimming sideways. I knew I’d hit the side of the pool
sometime. So, VMI was great for getting me ready for swimming—you didn’t graduate,
there were first classmen at VMI still struggling to try to get through RAT swimming,
and that’s the first year you’re there.
Interviewer: Now, how physically do they get you out to Vietnam? You ship out to
California; do you fly out of there?
I fattened up in California--that was a cushy job, so I started running. I thought, “Man
you better start getting in shape for Ranger school”. I was porked up a little bit. I
remember looking at myself when we got back from the mountains. You know, you only
get one ration a day in Ranger school, except in the winter, in the mountains, they let you
have two because you’re burning up all this energy. 15:04 I looked and my stomach
was gone. Whatever fat I gained in California was gone.
Interviewer: From Ranger school, do you get any leave time before they ship you
off to Vietnam or do you go straight out?
In this particular—some people maybe, but in my case no, everything just hit—into
Ranger school, two weeks in Panama, off to Vietnam, just bang, bang, bang.
Interviewer: What was the Panama experience like?
9
�Kind of worthless, I mean I had a really bad attitude in Panama, I just came out of Ranger
school and I don’t know if I had even asked for this school or not. The only good thing
about it, it took two weeks off of your tour in Vietnam, they dropped it. When you
started your two weeks in Panama it was like starting in Vietnam, so.
Interviewer: You were overseas at that point.
Yeah, I just came back to the states, basically, to just change planes, that’s what it
amounted to. Panama, it was just more of the same thing only in the jungle, and I
thought, “Oh god, how many more map reading courses am I going to go on?” 16:06
Interviewer: Did the jungle there bear any resemblance to what you were in in
Vietnam?
Yeah, pretty much with the usual nasty animals out there, yeah, jungle’s jungle.
Interviewer: So, at some level it might have had some value?
Yeah, probably acclimatization, and getting use to hot weather, yeah, that part of it
would have been.
Interviewer: But because you had Ranger school, and the rest of you, would they do
things like dump you in the middle of the jungle and say, “Get out, find your way
out”?
No, it was a lot of classroom and the final thing was some kind of map reading course at
night. I just–it was one more map course.
Interviewer: And you had done that already. You go back to the states; they put
you on plane and send you to Vietnam?
Yes,
Interviewer: Did you fly a commercial plane or a military one?
10
�It was commercial—I mean it was a charter flight. 17:01
Interviewer: What was the mood on the plane like going over?
I don’t remember. I got a roommate that was a FAC and he wrote a book. He made a
whole book out of just flying to Vietnam. I mean, how he remembers everything is
beyond me because the whole mood of the airplane—I just remember being on it and
that’s it.
Interviewer: Where did you land in Vietnam?
I think it was at Bien Hoa.
Interviewer: And what was your impression of Vietnam when you got there?
Interesting because I mentioned the Cav being on the Cambodian Incursion and the Cav’s
headquarters was right on the—the air force was on one side of the runway and the Cav’s
on the other side of it. We literally got off the airplane, and there’s guys right out of the
Boonies with either Cambodian or North Vietnamese, and they got them there with
handcuffs behind them, and stuff like that. These guys are right out of the jungle and
that’s quite an experience to see this just stepping right off the airplane. 18:06 That’s
because the Cavs were right there and they flew out of Bien Hoa.
Interviewer: What do they do with you when you land? Do they just park you
someplace?
There again, bad memory. You’re stuck; it’s in processing just like any military in
processing. You’re in a barracks, there you wait until the orders are posted, and like I
mentioned this Tory Smith, who’s picture’s in the book there, you know, he was on my
flight in and in the barracks there a couple of days and he said, “Hey, we got orders,
11
�we’re going to the 101st”, so that’s—the next thing you know you’re packing you stuff,
getting on a C130 and heading for Phu Bai.
Interviewer: Physically, where in Vietnam is this Phu Bai if someone is looking at a
map? Is it way north?
Have you seen a map?
Interviewer: I have, but we’re doing this, in part, for a broader audience.
Ok. Phu Bai, I think it’s in the province—the northern most province in South Vietnam is
Quang Tri Province. 19:03 Then the second most northern province is, it will come to
me----Phu Bai is right next to Hue, So picture Hue, the old imperial city—it will come to
me, that province, when I see a map and I have maps.
Interviewer: That’s ok, that can be looked up. Outside of Hue is good enough.
It’s outside of Hue, and that is the main landing field for the 101st. They had a runway
that would take C130’s and that’s where everybody in process.
Interviewer: You in process there and then what do they do with you?
They send you off and I went to Camp Evans to the Screaming Eagle Replacement
Training Center, also known as "serts", have you heard that one? A week in "serts" was
just a little vacation to get use to the jungle and all that. There was—this is where my
memory lets me down, I think I ended up with some people that were in my Ranger class.
20:07 They were showing us rappelling and we were almost laughing at the rappelling
because we were doing other types, you know, Australian front forward rappelling, which
was advanced techniques, but you know, it was just more of the same stuff. They tried to
give us a little bit of the sense of history of the 101st and they did a miserable job of that
because today I know so much more about the 101st. Had I realized the historic value of
12
�the unit I went to and I just took it for granted, I had no idea who these guys were and
you know, we’re famous today, 506 Infantry, but you know they just didn’t do a very—
we were at Bastogne and all that, well I knew that, big whoop.
Interviewer: Now, that class did it have enlisted as well as officers together?
Yeah, it was everybody thrown together. 21:00
Interviewer: So, you have some guys with no exposure to this kind of training and
other people who have.
Yeah, I’m just saying the people I was with, especially us guys—I’m almost sure there
were guys from my Ranger class and we were all there together. For the life of me I
can’t remember—if I could find Smith and say, “Were you in my Ranger class?” I’m not
real sure, but I know he was there when we in processed. He ended up going to 1/506
and I went to 2/506.
Interviewer: So, what was the specific assignment then that you got, what unit did
you go to?
The platoon leader, 1st platoon, in C Company of 2/506
Interviewer: When did you actually join them?
Well, now this gets hazy, I’ve gotten the dates screwed up, but as near as I can tell it must
have been about mid-May of 1970, because I had a week—there was four or five days of
SERTS and I remember ending Ranger school sometime in April and then you got jungle
school and everything just runs together and I got the dates mixed up sometimes, but I
would say about mid-May. 22:02
Interviewer: Was the platoon in the field when you joined it?
13
�Yeah, they took—they put me in a Loach, took me out to the middle of nowhere and said,
“That’s where you’re going pal”, and there was this little bald knob and it was a LZ
blown on top of a mountain and they were—that was to insert me and have me take over
the platoon, and I join the company in the field.
Interviewer: Now, were you replacing someone who was rotating out or someone
who had been hit?
I was told I was replacing Bob Wallace. I never knew this until I came to the Ripcord
reunion last year and I met Bob and we were joking. He had apparently left before I got
there, so there was a gap of time, but it was all under Captain Vazquez.
Interviewer: So, you’re joining the company in the field, and what kind of a
reception do you get? You land there and get off the helicopter and now what?
I don’t remember, I mean I got put to work right away. I had a platoon sergeant and I
can't remember if the whole company was together at the time, but it wasn’t long before I
met Vazquez. 23:08 He put my platoon on point to go—we had two platoons together
and company CP and maybe a third, I can’t remember.
Interviewer: He liked to keep them separate, he said.
Huh?
Interviewer: He said he liked to keep the platoons separate.
Did you talk to Vazquez?
Interviewer: Yes
We operated a lot separately, but I’m the new guy, so Vazquez is there and he said, “I
want you take point”, and point, that means the platoon leaders running the map and the
compass, and he said, “This is where we’re going to go”, okay. As time turned out
14
�Vazquez was a fast mover, he liked to move really fast. Now I don’t know whether I
move fast or slow, but you know, we were heading for the point and he said, “Ok, we’ve
been moving for the better part of the day, I’m going to have the other platoon come up
and take over, but they’re experienced and they know what they’re doing, and all that”
and within an hour we were right at the point that I had picked out. 24:05 We could see
this hilltop and once you start heading for there you can’t see anything but jungle, and we
ended up right where we were supposed to be and all that. I thought, “Ok, good”, I
mean—so, Vazquez came over, I’m not sure if he remembers this, but everyone says that
he has a phenomenal memory, and he said, “You did good, that was okay”, and coming
from Vazquez, I thought, “Ok”, even though he may have thought I was moving too
slowly, or maybe wasn’t sure that I was on the right track, but we did get to where he
wanted us to be, so I thought, “Ok, fine”. I truly regret—I only had two weeks with
Vazquez before we had to “stand down” , and I could have learned so much from that
man, you know, but I’m thankful for the two weeks I had before he was replaced.
Interviewer: Now, when he had you moving were you going on trails or off?
Yeah—well, I can’t say, we were on trails a lot and I’ve read the literature and thought
about it, it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t. 25:08
If you stay on a trail
you can get from point A to point B pretty quick, but if you do that you run the risk of
ambushes. If you cut across country, which we did, then it’s going to take longer, or you
might run into some stuff and it’s machete time you know, if the area had been defoliated
and things have grown up then you can’t move with any speed at all. Vasquez liked to
move fast you know.
15
�Interviewer: How quickly did you get into contact with the enemy then, once you
were out there?
I didn’t really see anything until there was a stand down. Well this again—my memory
is terrible because—have you interviewed Jim Campbell the other platoon leader?
Interviewer: No, I would like to, but I haven’t seen him yet.
Oh, you need to--I mean he was the old hand. I looked up to that guy. He had been in
country forever and I had first platoon and he had second platoon and we did operate
some together. 26:06
We had operated together and had split up to go our separate
ways, because as you pointed out, the norm was to operate in platoon strength, which is
really pretty cool. I mean, that being with the CP is kind of drab, you know. We walked
into a mechanical ambush and I came to Ripcord last year and I talked to a guy and he
said, “Yeah, I was in your platoon”, and I couldn’t remember him. He said, “Remember
we walked into a mechanical ambush”, and I said, “I can’t remember”. You would think
I could remember, but I couldn’t. I talked to Campbell later and he said, “Yeah, you guys
walked into that mechanical ambush because we had to come back up the trail and get
medivac”, and it’s gone from my memory, just gone.
Interviewer: Can you explain what a mechanical ambush is?
That would be probably a captured claymore [mine] or something set up as a booby trap,
so you it trips up. 27:05 I mean in today’s world it would probably be an IED or
something like that because that’s a vehicle borne ambush, but it’s an ambush without
people there.
Interviewer: What would differentiate from just calling it a booby trap? Is it size?
16
�I don’t know, I don’t know, the term mechanical ambush—I mean I hadn’t heard that
term in years. I would have called it a booby trap. I mean, we even tried our own traps
sometimes. As far as enemy contact, it was really next to nothing. I think we found a
trail watcher one time and fired him up, but no major stuff. Between it and the stand
down—did anybody talk about the stand down that happened in early June of 1970? It
really, I’d only been in the field for two weeks, but that was important in the sense that I
knew nobody else in 2/506. All the officers were back together and there were three or
four days there where you actually got to see people from other companies and know
who the other CO’s were. 28:08
There’s the famous officers photo of all of us lined up
in front of the control tower and you know, that type of thing. I didn’t even know that
picture existed until last year when I came.
Interviewer: So, did you meet with the battalion commander at that point?
I saw a lot of—Spade was there a lot of the time, I mean they would send in his
helicopter and yeah, I saw a lot of him. Sometimes I think I saw more of him than I did
my CO, eventually after Vazquez was replaced by Hewitt.
Interviewer: You had the stand down, so does Vazquez leave at that point?
No, he became S4 of the battalion, and Hewitt took over.
Interviewer: That’s right, and how did Hewett’s command style compare to
Vazquez’s?
Oh, completely different, Vazquez was an old Special Forces guy and I mean, whoever
wrote the book on him, they broke mold on Vazquez. 29:06
There was just no better
company commander. I mean, this guy’s sly, cunning, he knew how to deal with things.
Hewitt , he was—he looked like a kid. He was what? Twenty –four years old, ROTC
17
�grad from the University of Kansas, and he extended his tour a year. He had been down
south, I don’t know, down by Saigon maybe, and the word was that he had been with the
“Ruff Puffs”, which is regional forces/popular forces, and life wasn’t so bad down there.
It was Vietcong contact, a totally war, he might as well be fighting in some other country,
and he just didn’t have the experience. He slept in a hammock and that was crazy, you
know, but he was a decent guy.
Interviewer: So, then does he—he comes in while you’re on that stand down is that
when he comes in and joins you? 30:00
Yes, he took over
Interviewer: What happens after that?
Well, eventually after the stand down we head back out to the field and start working.
During the whole month of June we worked that area around Ripcord. Not much in the
way of contact, just an occasional trail watch or something, but nothing really bad. I
mean, there’s—I got some pictures—we fired up a trail watcher and somebody was
telling me, “Remember that time we got that pay officer? And the guy must have been a
pay guy because we got souvenirs—I got a piece of North Vietnamese money out of it,
propaganda leaflets saying “GI Go Home”, and some pictures of everybody gathered
around this dead body, but that was right, things were warming up, things were getting
ready to hit because that was the end of June, 1970.
Interviewer: Now, you’re in the area, were you the first unit sent into Ripcord or
you’re at a place where your company gets hit pretty hard? 31:06
You’re talking about hill 902?
Interviewer: Where does that fit into the sequence?
18
�July 2nd, 1970
Interviewer: Tell us what was going on at that point.
Still working the AO—did anybody talk to you about an incident with Charlie Company
right at the end of June? We were working a ridgeline and came to a stop. We looked
over to an adjacent ridgeline and there was a gap in there where there was no foliation.
We could see a North Vietnamese unit along that ridgeline. Too far for us to shoot at and
we counted maybe over a hundred and fifty people. I think that was sobering because I
think we realized there were more of them than there were of us. Companies were
operating at a very depleted strength. Platoon strength was—I was supposed to have fifty
men in a platoon and I had twenty-five.
Interviewer: How strong was the company at that point, as far as you can tell?
32:01
Well, we had been good under Vazquez, I don’t know if we had slacked up any under
Hewitt, I mean I was pretty new at this, so I knew Vazquez was good, but I couldn’t say
that Hewitt was bad, you know.
Interviewer: How about numbers? How large was the company at that point?
Well, there’s three platoons and let’s say that each platoon is reduced in strength to
twenty-five men, so you get seventy-five men in a platoon, if that and maybe five guys in
a company CP. CO, FO, from the 2nd of the 319 [2nd Battalion, 319th Field Artillery,
which had a battery on Ripcord], a couple of RTO’s because he had to secure set, so you
got five people—and a medic, so you got five people in the CP.
19
�Interviewer: So, about eighty or so? So you’re out there and you’ve seen all these
guys out there, North Vietnamese and realize there are a lot of them out there.
33:03
Yes, I mean everything’s after the fact, we’re up against something up a regiment, but we
didn’t know that at the time.
Interviewer: You didn’t know that at the time. Now, is it on the same patrol then
that you get draw second or go back?
It was all one continuous thing in and out of Ripcord because the company would either
put a company, or part of a company on Ripcord for security, so we had been on Ripcord
before Ripcord got bad. We were ordered on July 1st; we went up on hill 902 and spent
the night there. It was a well-used place; there were foxholes there and all that.
Apparently was quite a little hotel between us and the North Vietnamese, and I did not
know that at the time, you know. It was just another denuded hill and you could see
Ripcord in the background, so we were a couple of clicks away from Ripcord. We’re
there on night, nothing special, and somebody ordered us to stay there a second night, and
I’ve had discussions with Frank Bort, who rode over with me. 34:10
Under Vazquez
we never stayed in the same place two nights in a row. In either under Vazquez or
Hewitt, this time I’ve got pushing, maybe, two months in the field, ok, this is May, June,
I’ve never stayed the same place two nights in a row and was told to stay here.
Interviewer: In those previous two months you’re working, had you ever been
probed to a task by enemy sappers or ground troops?
No, the company had, but me personally, no. Just trail watchers, just little tiny stuff, you
know.
20
�Interviewer: But, it was the kind of thing where you could set up your perimeter at
night and they were not attacking you?
Yeah, right
Interviewer: So, what is going to happen then is going to be new?
For me, maybe not for the old hands, but for me it was new. 35:03
Interviewer: So, basically you’re there a second night.
What had happened it turns out is that’s when the big attack started on Ripcord, right
there. Apparently there was something magical in July 1st I’m guessing. Ben Harrison
can tell you better from the North Vietnamese. July 1st must have been the start of all the
action because that’s when Ripcord—so, we’re on 902, down low we could hear mortar
tubes going off and we know that they’re mortaring ripcord. So, somebody, it’s always
they, you know S3, somebody on battalion staff. Okay, we’re ordered to stay there for
the second night. Somebody gets this great idea that they’re going to drop in a pallet.
They slung low a pallet of LAW’s in, which is a light anti- tank weapon. It’s a direct fire
weapon and they say, “Ok, if you can hear the sound shoot at the sound with the LAWs”,
so we’re sitting up there shooting at wherever we think the sound is. 36:07
And, of
course that irritated them because then we started receiving incoming mortar rounds that
are cs gas. I’ve got pictures here of 902. A picture of me on 902 and some of the guys
on 902 and you can see the gas going off and you can see Ripcord in the back, so they
know we’re there. What we did is we dug in—there were positions already there and so,
we dug in the positions that were already there and strung up some wire that had tin cans
and stuff. Because we figured this is inviting disaster by being here and so forth. Then
shortly, at 4:00 in the morning that was the big attack on 902.
21
�Interviewer: Did you have as much security set up as your resources allowed you to
have? 37:02
Yeah, but could we have done it better? Yeah, way better, I mean yeah, that’s a whole
sore subject to me because I—because before going to this reunion in my own isolation
because I did nothing until Jeff Wilcox and people encouraged me to do this. I fought
that because I was one of the few officers up there and I was responsible, and there were
a lot of people killed up there, so I have to take responsibility for a lot of that. So, that
condemns one to fight and refight the battle in your head over and over again. What if I
had done this? What if we had not dug into the same holes?
Interviewer: So, basically from what you recall, what do you remember about what
happened then that night the attack started?
The attack started at 4:00 in the morning. 38:03 We heard movement, my platoon—
there was two platoons in the company CP. The third platoon was back on Ripcord
pulling security. They had just pulled them off that afternoon to go back to Ripcord
security, so they watched the whole thing from ripcord. Got hit with a North Vietnamese
Sapper Company, a good number of men, I don’t know, there could have been a hundred
men in that attack, I don’t know, and they just—we were well dug in and I was dug into
a foxhole this deep. It had wood in front, dirt, it had everything lined up, but the place
just erupted in total explosion. Between satchel charges and RPG’s we just got raked
over pretty good. If you did any shooting—shooting back wasn’t such a good thing
because that showed your position and they just—they were right on top of us with
satchel charges, so throwing grenades back at them was probably more effective. 39:05
So, Hewitt was killed apparently-- after the fact I realized immediately. What I
22
�thought—I was alert in my hole and on radio with battalion trying to get air in and
artillery. Artillery was pre planned and all that and we had an FO from the 2nd of 319 and
he was a 1st Lieutenant more senior than me. He had been in the field a while and I never
heard Hewitt, but I heard the FO so, sometime into it I figured out that something
happened to Hewitt and I debated, should I go to the CP or what? But, the FO seemed,
from what I could hear, had things under control. This was only by radio traffic; I don’t
know what’s going on because Hewitt’s CP, he was twenty-five meters behind mine. We
were set up in a perimeter and I had a machine gun right in front of me. 40:03 I was
back a little ways, 1st platoon facing one way, 2nd platoon on the back, CP, let’s say kind
of at the crest of the hill. I knew things were are not good at the CP, I thought we were in
danger of being overrun, but then at daybreak I thought, “Ok, we held”, and we didn’t get
overrun because I don’t know if anybody came through my part of the line, but when I
got back to the CP I found Hewitt dead and dead North Vietnamese all over the place,
and I realized they had come through the 2nd platoon and just decimated them.
Interviewer: Your own platoon, what kind of condition was it in?
A bunch of people wounded, but I had one man killed. The machine gunner was killed
and he was the only guy. He must have taken a RPG or something.
Interviewer: Did you have a sense that maybe the enemy had figured out or knew
what the foxholes were when they went in?
Yeah, but this was all after the fact, but reading the book and all that—the book says we
weren’t dug in, but that’s not true, we were dug in. 41:05 But then, tactically speaking,
it was, it turns out, okay, 902, the hotel, everybody in the world had been there. Not only
had we been there, but they had been there, so they knew where everything was, so—and
23
�this is part of replaying the battle, “Okay, we should have forgot those, moved further in
and dug new holes”, and it just goes on infinitely, what could we have done better?
Interviewer: Ultimately, in the morning the enemy’s gone. Were there enemy
bodies there too?
Oh, everywhere, all over the place, and unexploded satchel charges. I would bet—I don’t
know how many were thrown, but there were a bunch of them laying there that had not
exploded. One of them actually landed in my hole, in my foxhole, and me and my
platoon sergeant, and we realized they had actually gotten it into the hole, and then it’s
like those dreams where you’re trying to crawl out of something and you can’t move.
42:05
That’s exactly—it seemed like it took five or ten seconds to get out of the hole,
and all the while I’m thinking, “This thing’s going to go off. Okay, it goes off, this
thing's going to go off. I’m halfway out of the hole now and it’s going to blow my legs
off or something like that”. So, then we actually get out of the hole and we wait and we
wait. How long do you wait, waiting for it to go off? In the meanwhile the place is
getting raked, because the hole, the foxhole saved our life, so we jump back in the hole,
find it and throw it out, and go on. That’s what I mean the place was a dud and the place
was littered with ones that didn’t go off, but there was a lot that did.
Interviewer: The next morning comes and what do you do at that point?
Well, we regroup, see what’s going on. There were choppers in from Ripcord
immediately, and this is where my memory is terrible, horrible. I would have told you
that Jeff Wilcox was on the 1st chopper and took over the company. 43:02 He did take
over the company because Hewitt—I helped carry Hewitt’s body to the helicopter, what
was left of him, and I saw Jeff last year and he said, “No, I was not, it was somebody
24
�else. I took over the company; the company regrouped and went back to Ripcord”. The
wounded went to Evans, I went back to Ripcord and I thought Jeff had taken the
company over at 902, but he didn’t. I was having severe hearing problems; I knew
something was badly wrong with my ears. I was deaf at that point and couldn’t hear.
Somebody said, “Go see the surgeon and see what’s going on here”, and I did, I went to
see the surgeon and he looked at my ear and said, “Okay, you’re bleeding from your ear
drum. Something’s happened and we’ll send you back to Charlie med and have you
checked out”, so I left the company at that point, went back to Evans, went to the—there
were a whole bunch of guys from 902 in there at that point. 44:02 They looked at my
ears and the said, “Well, we’re going to send you, we’re going to send you back for
further recovery to Cam Ranh Bay”, and that’s a sore spot for me now because it
accomplished nothing. All it did was bring back some of my hearing. Hearing is pretty
much toast; I have a history from my family of hearing problems, and I’ve learned in
recent years that there’s a hereditary aspect. Once you damage it, it just multiplies, some
people can withstand it and recover, but it’s been a horrible downhill slope with my
hearing. Being in Cam Ranh Bay accomplished nothing, I missed the whole time that
Jeff Wilcox was the commander of the company. They subsequently ended up on Hill
1000; I don’t know if you heard some stories of that?
Interviewer: Yeah
I feel horrible about not being there with them on Hill 1000 and I was out of it for about
eight, nine days. 45:05 I was able to get back to them at Firebase O’Reilly, but I joke
with Jeff saying, “You must have stepped on the helicopter I stepped off of”, because
25
�Lucas had relieved Jeff of the company, and then I heard all the stories about it, so I
rejoined the company and then Lamb took over.
Interviewer: All right, then basically what does the company do and what are you
doing once you rejoin the company?
Well, we spend some time at O’Reilly, and then went back into the bush. There was
never anything—there was some firing here and there, but nothing on the magnitude of
902, nothing that some of the other companies ran into, and the last major engagement of
Ripcord—there’s people who can tell you the dates, but there was an incident where, I
think it was C [actually D] Company 1st of the 506 which was operating under the control
of the 2nd Battalion of the 506. 46:09 The CO of that company was a guy named
Workman, Captain Workman, and they ran I to some horrible—they just got decimated,
and they were trying to get all those guys out, and they shot down a helicopter on the pad
and there were a bunch of guys killed. Workman, the blade came through and cut
Workman in half and those guys, they had been messed up pretty bad. We got order to
go in—that LZ was finished because it was littered with helicopters and stuff, so they
were going to pull them out and put us in. Now it turns out—I thought we were replacing
them, but there was another company from the 501st, and I didn’t even realize that, but
we went in, I didn’t know if it was a hot CA, everybody was shooting, door guns were
going off, I don’t know if it was a hot one or not, but we got there and the whole world
was on this LZ. 47:08 The guys-- Workman’s company were being pulled out on the
ones that we went in on, and I don’t know the date, but this was one of the last things for
Ripcord, and they just started pulling people out of there. They pulled out 1st, C
Company of the 1st of the 506, and it turns out there were some 501 guys running around
26
�there, they pulled them out, and I thought we were under—my impression was we were
to begin working the area. They’re going out, we’re there, and all I could think of is,
“This is really a bad place to be”.
We were on an adjacent hill and I was thinking it was
a couple hundred meters away and Campbell said we were a thousand meters away.
Those guys, you could tell they were pretty badly torn up. There wasn’t a whole bunch
of us; we weren’t fully recovered from 902. 48:03
Interviewer: How many men are in your company at that point?
I don’t know, we had to be down to about nobody at that point. So, they pulled all these
guys out and there we were. We thought we should be walking off and starting patrols, at
least that’s what I thought the deal was, and then Lamb came back and said, “No, it’s a
fairy tail, it’s a fairy tale, we’re supposed to be fooling the enemy into thinking they’re
going to pull us out too”, so we waited and waited—those guys—two companies are
already gone, so we’re there and then they start pulling us out, but they could only get
one ship at a time in and I’m thinking, “this is probably one of the worst AO’s ever
because we’re going out six people at a time”, because all you can get is like six guys in a
slick because they can’t carry any more than that. I was on the last bird out and this is
where my memory totally broke down. I was on the last bird out, and I had asked if I
could set a couple claymores. My idea was to blow some claymores as the bird came in.
49:09 I imagined they were just waiting out here just to finish us off, you know, that’s
what I thought would probably happen, but they said, “No, no, don’t blow the claymores,
you’ll get the birds all spooked, the helicopters, you know, so we didn’t blow any. I was
among the last—we were on the—I was on the last bird out, just me and a couple guys.
See, this is where my memory totally broke down. I thought it was still daylight and
27
�Campbell said, “No, no, it was dark when we pulled out”, you know—horrible memory,
because I was thinking it was still daylight when we, getting dusk, but it was after dark.
Then there was a big discussion, well we had strobe lights, they had left us a strobe light
and all that, but it’s like not even remembering the mechanical ambush. I could not
remember that sucker for my life, you know.
Interviewer: How long then did you stay with the company after that? 50:04
Well, Ripcord ended
Interviewer: July 23rd or something?
Yeah, I was out there until mid-August, Lamb was the CO and he called me up and said,
“Hey, you’re going back to the rear, you got a rear job”, and I was happy. At that point I
didn’t know what was going on. Lamb could have been mad at me, or we had been
getting—we had gotten some fresh Lieutenants. There was a West Point class that sent
some in, that was right before Ripcord. Some officers started showing up and what
happened to Jim Campbell, he went all those months in the field and there was no
officers showing up. He was good so they left him in the field, you know, six months in
the field, six months rear job, but some of those guys got left out. The poor enlisted guys,
they were out there the whole twelve months, you know. So, I went back to brigade
headquarters as liaison office. 51:04
And hadn’t been one of the best jobs ever for a
rear job, because I was the representative to the division of the 3rd Brigade. My job, for
the rest of my tour--and Jeff was back there, and he was Harrison’s briefer or something,
but I worked out of the S-3 shop, the S-2 and the S-3, but mainly the S-3. Every morning
I would jump in a Loach, and I would fly to every firebase both 101st and the 1st ARVN
Division in Thua Thien-Hue Province, that’s the name of it, Thus Thien Province. In our
28
�area of operation, going all the way up towards the north, I would go in, I was the currier,
I would take documents, I had a brief case, I carried tracing paper and I would trace the
unit positions. 52:03
In the TOC you got a big topographical map and there would be
all the unit location. I would take tracing paper, trace all the units, put it in my brief case,
get back to brigade around noon, go down into brigade talk, post all the 2/506 and
whoever else was there, plus the ARVN’s, brigade talk, map, and then towards the end of
the afternoon I would go down to the division to Camp Eagle and attend the dog and
pony show down there with the commanding General briefing. Where you had a G-2 and
a G-3 briefer in spit shined boots and starched fatigues briefing the commanding General
and all the brass of the 101st. If there was ever a question to be asked about the 3rd
Brigade I had to be able to answer the questions, but I also ended up posting to the
division talk all these 3rd Brigade locations. Then each brigade, each of the three
brigades had their own liaison officer, and then go back to Evans in the evening. 53:04
That was the rest of my tour, and that’s where Lam Son 719 came in Because it got
interesting, because I flew to all these different places, and since the 101st was kind of
running Lam Son 719, even though it was an ARVN show, that took me up to Quang Tri,
I mean I even saw the Rock Pile and even saw Khe Sanh off in the distance one time.
Interviewer: Explain a little bit what was going on Lam Son 719.
That was an incursion into Laos in the spring of 1970. The 1st ARVN Division sent
troops into Laos.
Interviewer: The spring of 1971.
1971, yes, 71, 71, April or something like that, General Sidney Berry, I believe, he was
the assistant division commander. But he ran—he was the assistant division commander,
29
�but he was detached and there was a forward headquarters at Quang Tri of the 101st.
54:05
The 1st ARVN Division actually sent their assets into Laos, there was air
support from the 101st , Cobras and all that kind of stuff, no 101st units went into Laos,
but Khe Sanh was opened back up again and then, additionally, they brought the 1st of the
1st Cav [an armored cavalry battalion, not to be confused with the 1st Cavalry Division]
from the Americal Division from south, from Chu Lai, they put them on LST’s brought
them up to—there was a ramp at Tam Ky, which there was an inlet there not far from
Hue and all that. This was a mechanized unit, so they had ACAVs, they had M-113’s,
Sheridan tanks and all that and then they sent them up to Highway 9 and they ran from
Highway one to Highway 9, which runs past the Rock Pile, Khe Sanh, all the way over to
and goes on into Laos. 55:07 Then you have the 5th Mech, was up on the DMZ. Now
were talking like next door right at the DMZ. The 5th Mech has already been there and
that’s a brigade of the 5th Infantry Division, which is a mechanized unit. They had 113’s
and they had M-48 tanks.
Interviewer: So, basically you’re having to kind of—were you keeping track of
various parts of that?
Well, it’s the same mission except I got more places to go. I mentioned going to ARVN
and 101st firebases, but now you’ve got another TOC up at Quang Tri, which was a
forward operating TOC of the 101st, I ended up at Camp Carroll and there were some
other locations where it became necessary for me to go in. It’s basically doing the same
thing. 56:03 Taking documents back and forth, map overlays, noting troop locations
and what we would do by e-mail today. I was thinking about that—the 2nd of the 506 in
Afghanistan, and what I was carrying papers around and doing—when they were in
30
�Afghanistan, they were e-mailing each. I mean, I saw some correspondence I wasn’t
supposed be where somebody turned up missing in the 2/506 and there was a S-1
chewing somebody out by e-mail asking, “Where is this man, he’s in a combat zone”, and
that’s today, you know.
Interviewer: What impression did you have of the ARVN forces that you were
working with?
The 1st ARVN Division was pretty good. They were really good, they could move and I
didn’t see that they were bad soldiers. They did do a legionary Hoc Bau, which is
organic, which would be like a Ranger company that belonged to the 1st. They operated
on their own, and they were a bunch of wild men. 57:02 I remember a division briefing
at—General Berry loved the Hoc Bau, that was like his own personal Ranger company,
and they got involved in a shoot-out with the national police in Hue, and the next thing
you know, they’re showing up over on the Laos ion border somewhere. They got sent
out there because they were bad boys in Hue, but they were good.
Interviewer: Did you have much contact with the Vietnamese, either military or
civilian, aside from the ones that you saw?
The rumor was, the whole country was off limits to the 101st. I never really saw much in
the way of civilians except when we went to Eagle Beach and we drove through some
countryside. I got to see Hue one time because I had to go by Jeep from Eagle back to
Evans. One time Hewitt sent me on a mission. He sent me back and said, “Look, we got
a prisoner down in Da Nang”. 58:01 The Marines ran the jail in Da Nang and I had to
go and take some papers to some guy we had in the hoosegow in Da Nang. So, he sent
me back, I picked up a driver, maybe it was Lamb, I forget who it was, I picked up a
31
�driver back at Evans, strapped on a 45, and we drove down Highway 1, over the Hai Van
Pass and down to Da Nang to go see this guy and serve papers on him and go back. But,
I was amazed at the beauty of the beaches and stuff because Highway 1 followed right
along the coastline, but that’s the only time I got to see anything.
Interviewer: Now, when you were out and about the bases and so forth, in the
second half of your tour, were there Vietnamese and things working there?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you’re right—the barber, there was an officer’s club and an NCO club,
and the bar maid might be Vietnamese, but that was about the extent of the Vietnamese.
I mean, really, I had, unfortunately, no contact with any. 59:06
Interviewer: Now, when you were out in the field, how would you characterize the
morale or the attitude of the soldiers you were serving with?
It could be discouraging at times. Nobody wanted to be the last man dead, killed. We
knew the war was winding down and it’s kind of like the whole idea was to stay alive. I
wish I could tell you that we were a bunch of warriors that just lived for the moment, you
know, but a lot of them were draftees, you know. Even my attitude, I started seeing the
futility of it and I—looking back on it I have a totally different—I would go about it
differently, but at the time I had this sense of futility, almost like what’s the point now
after so many people have been killed. I walked off Ripcord and nothing left and it was
hard to see what we were trying to accomplish. 00:06
Interviewer: How well do you think the soldiers performed individually, at least the
ones you were working with, were they doing their job?
Yes they were, they were—there was the usual trying to keep a guy from falling asleep
on guard duty. That happens to this day, even in Afghanistan. There’s that when you
32
�pull your watch, skill, some were better than others, but these were pretty good troops for
a lot—well, they were all draftees you know.
Interviewer: You were with them at a certain point when they got cut up pretty
badly, when that happens to a unit that can affect them for a while, and you weren’t
with them too long after that. When you first joined the unit, with Vazquez, was
there a different quality to than it had later?
I’m, not sure, I’m not sure; I don’t think my memory is good enough to say, “Yeah, we
were beter then than we were then”. 1:06
Interviewer: Now when you were out in the field, one of the stereotypes is that
everybody is doing drugs and that kind of thing.
I never saw it
Interviewer: You never saw it
At Evans maybe, but not in the field
Interviewer: This tape is about up here.
33
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LeibeckeB1275V
Title
A name given to the resource
Leibecke, Robert (Interview transcript and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Leibecke, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Leibecke was born into a military family and attended VMI, graduating in 1969. Commissioned in the Army, he attended Infantry Basic School at Ft. Benning, went to Jump School, put in a few months with a transportation unit at the Hunter Liggett Military Reservation for some leadership experience, and then went to Ranger School, and then to Jungle Training in Panama before going to Vietnam. In May, 1970, he was given command of the 1st Platoon in C Company, 2/506, in the 101st Airborne Division. His company participated in the campaign around Firebase Ripcord. They suffered badly in an attack on their position on Hill 902 on July 2, and later helped to rescue another company, D/1/506, on July 23. In August, he was reassigned to be his brigade's liaison officer to the division headquarters, and also served as a liaison with the ARVN 1st Division during their invasion of Laos in early 1971.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-10-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6bb3e68de6f2e8b9ec2854638fb74fd4.mp4
743c481fb57a9b878be9b541ec82776e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05ddb4d0de373cfe0ade4377f4b1c6e0.pdf
ead74ecd56460825af1b14a01e1b7555
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Harold LeFurge
(48:25:27)
Childhood
• (00:32:06)born in Lansing, MI, lived in Lansing until the age of twelve; the
family then moved to Grand Ledge, about ten miles west of Lansing, where he
went to high school; graduated form high school in 1944
• (01:17:22)he was fourteen years old at the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor, and
he wondered "where's Pearl Harbor"?
• (01:32:26)Lefurge's mother thought the war would be over before any of her sons
would not have "to go" [into the military] but he and one of his three brothers did
In The Navy
• (02:04:00)he joined the navy "right out of high school"; you could either
volunteer for one of the branches of the military at that time or you would be
drafted; LeFurge chose the navy because he thought he would never have to dig a
fox hole in the navy; also, "the food was better" [in the navy]
• (02:48:28)he went to "Great Lakes" [the Naval Training Station in Great Lakes,
IL] near Chicago for basic training; basic training was increased to ten weeks in
July of '44, from five weeks; after the ten weeks, he went on leave for two weeks
o there were "hundreds" at Great Lakes, but perhaps fifty to one hundred in
the barracks building with him
o their instructor was a chief petty officer; training amounted to lots of
marching and basic seamanship, but not much with rifles
• (05:20:13)how he got to Great Lakes: he traveled on a troop train many from his
home town: "probably most of my graduating class, a lot of them, went in the
navy," and he "saw some of 'em later on on ships out there the Pacific"
• (06:22:14)he left Great Lakes in October of '44 and went to Philadelphia for
assignment
o he was sent to Fort Pierce in Florida for "small boat," amphibious training,
where he learned how to operate landing craft;
o from Fort Pierce, he went to Norfolk, VA for more training—Little Creek,
near Norfolk
• (08:01:15)LeFurge ended up a third class petty officer in the navy:
communications, a signalman
• (08:43:14)in Philadelphia, he was assigned to a newly-built ship, built in
Evansville, IN
• they picked up the LST in Evansville, "took it down the Ohio [River] to the
Mississippi [River] and to Gulfport on the Mississippi
• (09:43:10)the LST was a three-hundred-sixty-foot landing craft for transporting
tanks, big guns, and troops, and it had bow doors that opened, of course; he was
on LST 1103, with a crew of two-hundred and fifty; "maybe a third of the crew
was experienced"
�•
•
(11:54:04)it was crowded on the ship: he slept and ate in a compartment with
about fifty other room, they slept in bunks stacked three high, and there was a big
closet to put things in
(13:01:24)as a signalman, LeFurge's duties included communication on light:
search light, morse code was on the light, ship to ship, and ship to shore
communication; there was also flag hoisting, and he had to know what [flag]
combination designated a particular signal; he had to memorize things from signal
books and code books; after about six months he passed the tests to become a
petty officer
Headed For The Pacific
• (14:38:04)at Gulfport, MS they picked up an LCT, a smaller landing craft, then
sailed through the Panama Canal into the Pacific, and on to Hawaii and Pearl
Harbor
• (15:45:17)the Panama Canal: "you just go through singly," it is not wide, one
could reach “over here and touch the side of it”; it took his ship three to four
hours to get through the canal
• (17:32:02)Pearl Harbor: he did not see many effects of the bombing, "they had it
pretty well cleaned up" by that time; the Arizona and Utah were there "sticking
up" from the water
• (19:28:00)his ship resupplied at Pearl Harbor, to take things to the islands; though
the main battles were over, there was still "some fighting" however, and they took
on replacement troops
From Pearl Harbor To Okinawa
• (20:28:10)they visited the Marshall Islands, the Carolines, then went north to
Saipan, Okinawa, Iwo Jima; they got there after the main battles, and did not
go ashore
• (22:01:28)some Japanese generals had administration and families on Iwo
Jima; told that the conquering Americans would torture and kill them, they
committed suicide by jumping over a "big cliff"; "suicide was big to those
people"
• (23:47:03)he made a number of trips between Pearl Harbor and the islands;
his ship got to Okinawa in the middle of 1945
• (24:26:27)"any ship out there was there for the invasion of Japan"; "I know
that my ship would have been one of the first ones in the invasion of Japan,
and those Japanese people, they wouldn't give up."
• (25:25:14)"Mr. Truman was my friend." [for having the atomic bombs
dropped]
• (25:31:12)they celebrated the Japanese surrender by "going ashore on this
island" [near Okinawa]; they were not allowed to drink on the ship, but they
were given "4% beer"; they played softball and drank beer
His Experiences With The Japanese
• (26:27:16)they picked up Japanese military families from some of the islands and
got them out of there “so they wouldn't start another fight"; they loaded them onto
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
the ship and transported them back to Japan—this operation took two or three
weeks"
the Japanese rode on the tank deck [of the ship], where they laid down their mats
the Japanese fed themselves: "we had this big kettle," and "they made their own
rice, boiled their own rice and fish”
the Americans built restrooms for their Japanese guests, for women on the port
side of the deck, and for men on the other side of the deck; but the Japanese
"didn't care, one used the other"
(28:11:15)"I talked with some, on the main deck, where the kettle was" [LeFurge
says of the Japanese on the ship] he would ask them, "What's your problem,
what's your problem?" the Japanese did not like to talk about it however—"I
suppose they feel guilty" [LeFurge]
(28:41:25)LeFurge's explanation for Japanese militarism: Japan is small,
overpopulated, "one reason why they were so militaristic, "and they wanted more
land for their people
(29:07:17)he met a young German women after the war, when he was back home
and tried to have a conversation with her, asking "why did you people do that",
but she "wouldn't talk about it"; they "claimed they didn't know" about it
(30:17:21)he does not have "anything against individual Japanese" but feels that
they haven't changed much [by the time of the interview] though they are "not as
bad"; he does not want "anything to do with 'em" [the Japanese] as a group; and
this is "the feeling," according to LeFurge, of "not just the military [American] at
that time" but of civilians too: "they don't like those people" [the Japanese]
(31:00:26)the attack on Pearl Harbor was a "sneak attack" and "they're cowards"
Between The Wars
• (31:45:28)he got out of the navy in the spring of 1946
• he would not "want to do it again" but he is glad he had a chance to do it
• (32:26:10)he and his wife were in Hawaii "a few years ago," and they wanted to
fly to Peleliu, in the Palau or Belau group of islands [the far-western Caroline
Islands]—he had not been able to get off the ship there while in the navy—but to
fly there in the present time would be "just like buying a house and a car" so he
“forgot about it”
• (34:11:13)LeFurge was discharged from the navy in April of 1946
o one had to have "so many points to get out": one got points for years in
the military, years overseas; he waited from October of '45 until May of
'46 to get out
• (34:57:01)his ship returned to the US, to Charleston, South Carolina, in March of
1946; the ship was then decommissioned
• (35:20:15)after WWII LSTs were used for oil storage "down on the gulf"; the
Logan, which he was on during the Korean War, was scrapped
• (35:53:14)he was in the Korean War for a year and a half
• (35:59:02)after WWII, LeFurge went into "active reserve" [navy] with a chance
of recall
• (36:21:22)after leaving the navy, LeFurge "came home": his parents lived in
�•
Lansing (MI)
(36:29:07)he got a job, and he worked for Greyhound [the bus line] for forty
years; he worked in the accounting and ticket offices
Korean War
• (37:18:26)from Philadelphia, he was sent to San Francisco, where he was
assigned to an "APA," auxiliary personnel attack
• (37:55:03)the Logan [LeFurge's ship] was an amphibious transport vessel: it
carried twenty-six boats for ferrying men ashore and back
• (38:33:14)he arrived in Korean "close to the end of the war," in the spring of
1953, and too late for the main amphibious landings; they took relief troops to
Korea, from Pearl Harbor and other islands, both army soldiers and marines
• (39:52:05)living conditions on the Logan were the same as on the LST in
WWII: "we always ate good"
� the bad part about it: the Japanese would attack ships early in the morning
before people got up, so they had GQ, "general quarters," at 4 a.m.
� his general quarters station was up on the signal bridge
�
***Mr. LeFurge may have been referring to incidents in WWII, in the comments
immediately above, not the Korean War, but they have been recorded in the order
spoken.***
Family Life
• (40:50:21)he and his wife Lorraine have been married for fifty and a half years (at
the time of the interview)
• (41:00:11)he met her five or six years after the Korean War; he was introduced to
Lorraine by a co-worker and his wife in the Greyhound bus station where he was
working
***Mr. LeFurge probably met Lorraine after WWII, not after the Korean War, since his
marriage took place about a year after he returned to the US from Korea, or so he
says.***
•
(42:17:27)LeFurge has six children, and none of them "were on anything" or
even smoked cigarettes: he kept them from smoking cigarettes by offering to
give each of them fifty dollars if they did not smoke until reaching the age of
twenty-one
� one is in Florida, one is in Annapolis, MD, and one is in San Francisco
� the other three live in the area [in Michigan]: one is a teacher, one has a
master's degree in business, and the other is a homemaker
� his oldest daughter and her husband have lived in Saudi Arabia and
Thailand
• (44:13:26)he has six grandchildren and one great-granddaughter who will
be two years old in December [in relation to the time of the interview]
How He Came To Grand Rapids From Lansing
�•
•
(45:12:21)he had worked for Greyhound for thirty years, when "they decided
they were gonna do this and do that and they weren't makin' enough money
and all that junk that goes on to this day"; Greyhound was going to downsize
and they offered him a choice of either Flint or Grand Rapids, and he chose
Grand Rapids
(45:57:25)he spent a couple of months living in the YMCA while looking for
a house in Grand Rapids; he met with a realtor every night and finally found
the house in Wyoming, where he has now lived for twenty-eight years [at the
time of the interview]
On His Life and War Experiences
• (46:51:23)he believes he has been fortunate in life and to have been married
to a "nice woman" for fifty years and hasn't "regretted a day of it"; he raised
six kids who "didn't get into trouble or anything"
• (47:46:26)LeFurge, in response to the interviewer's expressed hope that
students in the future, watching the video, will learn about what life was like
during WWII and afterward and lean more about history: "learn how to get
along with these wars we have now"
• (48:25:27)he was about to be drafted, so he joined the navy: "you had to do
somethin'"
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LeFurgeH
Title
A name given to the resource
LeFurge, Harold W. (Interview outline and video), 2004
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
LeFurge, Harold W.
Description
An account of the resource
Harold LeFurge served in the US Navy in both WWII and the Korean War. On an LST ship during WWII, he sailed to the Marshall Islands, the Carolinas', the Northern Mariana Islands, and to Okinawa. The main battles were over by the time LeFurge got there, but his ship carried supplies to the islands, and transported Japanese military families living on the islands back to Japan. Late in the Korean War, his ship transported American relief troops, army and marines, to Korea from Pearl Harbor and other Pacific islands
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vanderlinde, Dean M. (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Navy
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2004-10-21
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1043f52070ed37ac8bac18cd220118f4.mp4
6e7059bca0d8d74002d523126a1cf6b1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/893fcf1209c0b025f564d14424a27a0c.pdf
0365c1249217452a61707b2dbb1bb731
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Lyn Lee
(00:48:22)
(00:15) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Lyn was born in Detroit, Michigan on September 7, 1953
His mother worked as a server and also did some embroidery work
His father Harry was a mason and worked at Great Lakes Steel for 38 years
Lyn went to Myra Jones Elementary School
He liked to swim and play basketball
They took their senior trip to the Bahamas
Throughout high school, Lyn worked part time at an Italian café
(11:00) Graduation
•
•
•
•
Lyn quit the café right after he graduated
He lived with his parents for a while and they were very strict
He was still only 17 and could not yet get a job in a factory
Many of his friends were working in factories or left to go to college at Michigan State
University
(12:40) Enlistment in the Navy
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Lyn joined the Navy with the “Buddy System,” so that he and his friend would only have
to enlist for 3 years instead of 4
When he joined the Navy, the Viet Nam War was still in process
He had boot camp in Orlando, Florida for 13 weeks
The experience was very shocking and scary and he barely got any sleep while he was
there
They found out that his “buddy” could not swim and they were separated because his
friend had to take many extra swimming classes to catch up with the others
They got up every day at 5 am and had inspection at 6 am; then they ate breakfast and
attended their classes
They learned about the rules and regulations of the Navy
Lyn had training in weapons and combat, running, hiking
The men spent most of the time in classes
They learned how to make a floating device out of every part of their uniform
(21:40) The USS Super Tanker A0106
•
•
The ship hauled fuel and oil for service craft
The seas were very rough and they spent about 20 days out at sea per trip and many
people got sick
�•
•
•
•
•
•
It took them 26 days to get to their base in Viet Nam
On their way there they had to constantly refuel other ships
They had first stopped in Hawaii to reload fuel
They ship could hold 60 million gallons of fuel
He traveled on the ship with about 350 men, followed by two escorts
Their base was located in the South China Sea while working on Operation Clean Sweep
(31:05) Time Spent on Leave
•
•
•
•
•
•
Lyn traveled to Singapore and Hong Kong and everyone there treated the Americans with
respect
They stayed near their base for 9 months until the war was nearly over
Lyn went back to the US in December of 1974 for one month before he was called back
to the base near Viet Nam
His highest rank in the Navy was E-3, but he was brought back down to E-2 for being
AWOL
He had been hung over and missed his ship to leave
His punishment was 14 days restriction on the ship in the brig and the demotion
(39:00) Life After the Service
•
•
•
•
•
•
Lyn went back to Detroit and attended college for 6 months
He then went to work at a Chrysler factor for three and a half years
The economy was not that great and he was eventually laid off
Lyn left for California and found a job working for the National Ship Building Company,
working on super tankers for about 4 years
He then went to Seattle to look for a new job, but could not find anything
Lyn went back to California to work for 6 more years and then moved back to Michigan
(43:45) Back in Detroit
•
•
•
•
Lyn started working in construction as a stone mason
He then started working for an excavating company, but eventually hurt his back so bad
that he could no longer work
He now lives in a veterans home in Grand Rapids
Lyn believes that time spent in the service in good in providing discipline and helping
young people to mature
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LeeL
Title
A name given to the resource
Lee, Lyn (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lee, Lyn
Description
An account of the resource
Lyn Lee served in the US Navy from 1972 to 1974. He was a crewman on the USS Navasota (A0-106), a large tanker. His ship served in the South China Sea, and supported ships cruising off the coast of Vietnam in the later stages of the war there.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
African-American soldiers
United States. Navy
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-01-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives