4 24 1541 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d0883bf6b478c24cd5870f8dba6485b.mp4 2f80e71d087f74dda18656674529c689 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/81c5a659e0bf19fa96dae6fb8ebbfc87.pdf 04c87de7566e60a9cc42bdb1f7955e08 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: William Crow Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interview length: 1:50:19 Interviewer: We are talking today with Bill Crow of Wichita, Kansas, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Bill, start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: October 4th, 1927, in Butte, Montana. Interviewer: Alright. And did you grow up there? Veteran: No, we were there for about 2 years and then we moved to…Well, we moved to Oklahoma first and then to Kansas. Interviewer: Okay. And what kinds of things did your family do for a living when you were a kid? Veteran: I am sorry, I didn’t…? Interviewer: What kind of job did your father have? Or…? �2 Veteran: Well, my father was the reason we moved, because he worked for Safeway, and they sent him to Oklahoma to work in a store and then brought him up to Wichita to manage a new store that was at Main and Murdock. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And he was the manager of that new store. Interviewer: Alright. Now, this is in the 1930s in the era of the Depression. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: But was he still, you know, earning a reasonable living then for…? Veteran: Well, then he bought half a share in a small grocery store. It’s a half a block from Safeway. And eventually, he bought the meat department too. He bought that from a German couple who had had a small grocery store there for years. Then he did that for a while. And of course, I was the kid that got to change the sawdust in the meat department and oil the floors and put the cans on the shelf and so on. Interviewer: Okay. How many kids were in your family? Veteran: My younger brother and myself. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: My younger brother was 8 years younger than me. Interviewer: Wow. So, you got to do all the work? Veteran: Yes. (00:02:14) Interviewer: Alright. Now, and then how far did you go in school? �3 Veteran: I just—I went about 2 weeks in the 10th grade. And that’s when I decided that I ought to go in the Marine Corps. Interviewer: Alright. Now before that, do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? Veteran: That was on the radio. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And when you first heard the news, did you understand what that meant? Veteran: Not really. Not really. But other than the fact that it was war. Interviewer: Now, before that, had you been paying any attention to the news in the world? The war in Europe? That kind of thing? Veteran: Well, you’d—you know, you’d see moving pictures and things like that, which gives you rather a warped sense of what goes on. Interviewer: So, you had like newsreels at the movie theater? That kind of thing? Veteran: Yes. Right. Newsreels and newspapers and so forth. Interviewer: Okay. So, you had some awareness of it. Okay, now, you were still pretty young when the war started? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: You were 14. Now, did you…What made you decide to enlist when you did? �4 Veteran: Well, I was—I had a lot of wanderlust when I was a kid. I had run off from home about 3 times. The last time I run off, well, I hitchhiked a ride with the sheriff in Colorado, who immediately took us to jail and called my father. And we come back home. My father was a great man. I had all the admiration in the world for him. He could talk to me and get more out of me than anyone. My mother would just hit me with whatever was handy, so…Which, I deserved I know. Interviewer: Alright. So, now you are 16 years old. Veteran: I am sorry? Interviewer: Now when you were 16, that’s when you actually enlisted. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Now, legally you couldn’t enlist until you were 17. Veteran: That’s right. Interviewer: So, how did you get into the Marine Corps? (00:04:35) Veteran: I lied about my age, and I changed the date on a birth certificate that I had so that I was 17. Interviewer: Okay. Now at that point, I mean, did your father sign for you? Veteran: Yes, he did. Interviewer: Okay. So, he was willing to send you on— Veteran: Well, his last comment that I remember was he says, “At least I will know where you are at.” Which, within 6 months’ time, he had no idea where I was at. �5 Interviewer: Alright. So, roughly when was it—what time of year did you enlist? Do you think it was late in ’43? Veteran: Yeah, it was…Yeah, it would be late in ’43. I don’t remember just what date. Interviewer: Okay. Now, what did they—so, where did you actually sign up? Where did you enlist? Veteran: Here in Wichita. Interview: Okay, in Wichita. Okay. And then once you have signed up, what do they do with you? Veteran: They sent me to Kansas City to take a physical. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And went up there on the train and come back on the train. And waited to be called. They called us very shortly. They put me on a train and sent me to San Diego. Interviewer: Alright. Do you remember anything about that train ride? Veteran: Oh yes. It was 3 days long and I never did get a seat. It was mostly stand-up time. Interviewer: Okay. Did they feed you? Veteran: Beg your pardon? Interviewer: Did they have food for you? Was there a dining car? Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, they had a dining car, but I don’t remember much about the food. �6 Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were traveling on the train…Let’s see, did they have— do you remember if they had a steam engine? You know, like an old coal burning engine? Or a diesel or…? (00:06:38) Veteran: They had—I am sure they were burning coal. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Did you get to get off the train at all or were you just stuck on it? Veteran: No. No. Interviewer: Okay. Now they get you to San Diego. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: What kind of reception do you get at the training center? Veteran: We get a drill sergeant that is standing there waiting for the train to come in. after everybody got loaded out, why they lined everybody up and said, “Everybody that is going into the Marine Corps, follow me.” And we did. Interviewer: Now, at—was he yelling at you yet? Veteran: I am sorry? Interviewer: Did they—did he yell at you or was it just matter of fact? Veteran: Well, they were very abrupt about everything. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: Began to educate us real quick. �7 Interviewer: Okay. So, what did the basic training consist of? Veteran: We went to bootcamp for 7 weeks. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: The first three weeks was drill, drill, drill, drill, drill, drill, drill, drill. The next three weeks were bang, bang, bang on the rifle range for three weeks. And then one week back, we were supposed to do slop chute duty, but we didn’t have to do that. Interviewer: Slop chute duty? Veteran: Yeah. Well…work in the galley. Interviewer: Okay. So, KP, whatever. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And then they assigned us to our training. Interviewer: Okay. And then what kind of training did you get? (00:08:23) Veteran: Well, I was promoted immediately to PFC. And I remained that for the rest of the war. But I was sent to Camp Pendleton where we did combat training. We did a little bit of everything. And then they sent me to…Well, we had that combat training and bayonet training and grenade throwing and stuff like that. And running and jumping and the obstacle courses and so on. Interviewer: Okay. Did they have— Veteran: And then we finished that up and we were sent to school. �8 Interviewer: Okay. Now, while you were there, you were doing the training at Camp Pendleton, did you have field exercises where you would be out overnight or anything like that? Veteran: Oh yeah. It was a little bit of everything. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But then you get a more specialized school now? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, what was that? Veteran: Well, that one—I went to school. They sent me to a communication school. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And what was it that they… Interviewer: Did you— Veteran: Well, we worked on semaphore… We worked on all kinds of communications. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Had a smattering of information on encoding. Interviewer: So, did you learn Morse code? Did you have to learn that? Veteran: No. No, I did not. We had—well, that is later on but— Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay. But so, were you learning how to operate a radio or how to…? Or telephone? Veteran: No. No, just basically messages and how to handle them and things like that. �9 Interviewer: Alright. And do you have any idea why they picked you for that? (00:10:33) Veteran: No, I don’t. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Other than I was just a dumb kid. Interviewer: Alright. Now, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Marines? I mean, you had been kind of independent. Veteran: I had no problem with it because I wanted to be there. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: There were those that weren’t particularly happy about being there, which made it more difficult. But I was fortunate enough to have some good drill instructors in bootcamp. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They were not the mercenaries that occasionally some of the guys had. Because I can recall seeing a DI being chased across the lawn at the end of a bayonet for bayonet practice because the guy was mad at him, and he was going to get him. But there were some DIs that— and our DIs were very strict but as long as you did what you were told to do, then you didn’t have any trouble. But you didn’t question anything because they would march you off into the ocean. They would, you know, tell you to get down in that mud and take you through a mess of dirt and sand and so on and then give you about 15 minutes to get everything cleaned up. And if you didn’t get them clean, I can remember one time we had all of our dungarees. And we had so many minutes to get those clean. (00:12:24) �10 Veteran: We had scrub brushes and a scrub board. And then after you got them all cleaned up, why, we’d stand out and hold them out on our arms like this and DIs would come along and inspect the clothes to see if they were clean. And if anybody’s weren’t clean, then he would just say, “Drop your arms.” And the clothes would go on the ground, and he would march us back and forth across the clothes a few times. Then he’d say, “Alright, now you’ve got 10 minutes to get them clean.” It was, you know, that type of…It was not mean, but it was meaningful because it was really training us to the point where we would act without thinking. Interviewer: Alright. Now, do you know if your drill instructors were combat veterans? Had they been to Guadalcanal or anything? Veteran: Yes, one of them had. The other two, I don’t remember for sure. But the sergeant had, and he was good. He was a good man. He was just doing his job, is what he was doing. Interviewer: Alright. Now, as you are going through these different stages of training, are they teaching you anything about the Japanese or what you might encounter when you go out there? Or was this just all learn the procedures, follow the orders? Veteran: Well, I think everybody was still thinking that all the Japanese were little bitty short guys wearing the thick glasses and—which I found out later was not true. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:14:12) Veteran: Because the first unit we run into on Peleliu was Japanese Marines. You know, I think the first dead one I saw looked like he was about 7 foot tall. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so do you have an idea of when did you finish that training? Somewhere in ’44, I guess? �11 Veteran: Yeah, we took the combat training and then our specialist training. And then they formed our company up. Interviewer: Okay. And— Veteran: Which was the JASCO company. Interviewer: Okay. Explain what a JASCO company is. Veteran: We were a company that…Joint Assault Company that went in with the assault troops. We had—and eventually, we got Navy radiomen in with us, plus our own radiomen. And we had the Navy men were there primarily to call in the Naval gunfire. And there was an air unit that was in that would call in airstrikes. And that was the job of our unit, was to do those kind of things. And in conjunction with the assault troops. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you attached to a larger unit? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, what division— Veteran: Yeah, we were attached to—that is, I was attached to the 1st Battalion, 3rd Regiment with the 1st Division. Interviewer: Okay, so 1st Marine Division. Alright. Veteran: Yeah. And that was—and then they split us up among the whole regiment. And our teams went with different units. Interviewer: So, you are probably 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment? Veteran: Mhmm. �12 Interviewer: Okay. And not the other way around. Alright. Okay, so…Now, did you get to train with them? Or do you join them someplace, or…? (00:16:21) Veteran: Well, we joined them down on the rest base, which was on Pavuvu. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: In the Russell Islands. Interviewer: Alright. Now, but you are—so you—did you form up the company back in San Diego or Pendleton? Veteran: Yes. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, once you have formed up the company, now what happens to you? Veteran: Well, then…Well, our next operation was we just went overseas. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They… Interviewer: What kind of ship were you on? Veteran: We were on a Dutch ship that had a Dutch crew and an American gun crew. It was an old ship named [sounds like Polio Lout] The captain on that ship was a Dutchman and he…I can still hear him. He’d say, “Garbage detail. Dump the garbage!” And that is where we started our float across the sea. Interviewer: Okay. Now, was it just your company that was on this boat, or were there other Marines? �13 Veteran: No, we had…Well, it was our unit, which was 600, over 600, men. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Was this in— Veteran: And—in total. And we stopped in Hawaii for one day and they picked up a bunch of Japanese troops. Where—what they were doing there, I have no idea. But anyway, they joined us on the ship. Interviewer: So, Japanese Americans? Veteran: Javanese. Interviewer: Oh, Javanese, like from Java? Veteran: From Java. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I—to this day, I don’t know. I assume they were there being trained for something or another. Interviewer: Okay. Because the— Veteran: But then we began our trip across the ocean. Thirty days later, why—well, we stopped first at Tulagi and Guadalcanal. And they—if I remember right, I think they unloaded the Javanese troops at Tulagi. Interviewer: Yep. (00:18:31) Veteran: And then, from Guadalcanal, we went over to our rest base which is about another 50 miles on Pavuvu. Interviewer: Okay. �14 Veteran: Which was a coconut grove. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did your ship sail in a convoy? Veteran: No. We were just a sole ship. Interviewer: Just by yourself. Because normally— Veteran: Thirty days. Interviewer: Okay. Did you do a lot of zigzagging while you were sailing? Did you change course a lot? Or not that you noticed? Veteran: I…Not that I know of. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It is very possible that they did. Interviewer: Alright. And were— Veteran: It took long enough. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, were you worried about Japanese submarines or aircraft? Veteran: I didn’t particularly think about them, no. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so you get to Pavuvu, you are in the Solomon Islands and now…Now, does the rest of the division— Veteran: That’s where the 1st Division was at. Interviewer: Okay, so the division is already there. So, now is then when they kind of split you up and they assign you to the different battalions? �15 Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, were there particular people that you worked with that you remember? Or individual— Veteran: Well, our commanding officer of our regiment was Chesty Puller, who was a legend in the Marine Corps. Interviewer: Okay. What impression did you have of him at the time? Veteran: Oh, well complete awe. He was definitely for his men. For instance, we had some natives come over from another island and they built some grass huts for us for mess halls. And officers and men were all eating in the same mess hall. (00:20:21) Veteran: And we had a new second lieutenant who had come in. He walked up and got—went up to the head of the line to get in, but he didn’t notice that the colonel was back here in line, waiting his turn. And Chesty went up and grabbed him and I don’t think that second lieutenant ever stepped in another line while he was in the Marine Corps. But that’s the way Chesty was. He was for his men. Granted, our regiment took a lot of casualties. And a lot of people blamed him for it, but he was there with you. He wasn’t just sending you. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. About how long do you think you stayed on Pavuvu? Veteran: On Pavuvu…We were there…Oh my. I suppose we were there maybe 3 or 4 months. Interviewer: Okay, so quite a while. Veteran: Which—yeah, we did night training, we did make work, make work, make work. Interviewer: Did you practice any landings? Did you use the landing craft? �16 Veteran: Yeah, we did go back over to Guadalcanal and did some assault landings, practice landings, on the Canal. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that was when—after that, we took off for Peleliu. Interviewer: Alright. Now, what was your actual job when they were making a landing? What would you do? (00:22:15) Veteran: I was a runner. My favorite expression was when I took a message to the colonel one time. And when I was still 16 years old and very impressed by this legend of a Marine, he said, “I don’t know what we would do without you runners,” he said, “I can’t depend on these radios or telephones.” Well, he could have told me to go ride straight to the gates of hell and I would have went. But that’s the kind of an officer he was. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: But that was my job as a runner, to—if the communications broke down then my job was to get the message there by foot. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And they would say, “This needs to go to so and so and so and so.” Well, I’d, “Where are they?” “They are over there.” You know. “Here’s the telephone line. You can follow that telephone line. That will go to them.” Well, you’d follow that line about so far and then it would be blown in two or run over by a tank or something else. And you go well, okay…and you would just have to wander around until you found where you were going. Interviewer: Alright. �17 Veteran: But you would deliver the message and you would come back and… Interviewer: Okay. When you were in the Solomon Islands there, before you went to Peleliu, did they do anything to prevent you from getting malaria? Veteran: We took Atabrine tablets. Interviewer: Okay… Veteran: Which turned you yellow. Interviewer: alright. Veteran: Turned your eyes yellow, turned your skin yellow. It was a—that’s the first thing that really shocked me when I got there was to see all of these yellow guys. But that was basically to try and protect you from… Interviewer: Okay. Now, did—were there guys who tried to avoid taking it? You know, people who didn’t want to take it? (00:24:21) Veteran: We didn’t have a choice. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: When we would go through a chow line, at the end was a corpsman who was standing there and he had a bottle of Atabrine tablets and he says, “You open your mouth,” and he throws it in your mouth, and you take a sip of something and swallow it down. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, well did it work? I mean, did you get malaria? Veteran: I had malaria. Not real bad, but no it wouldn’t keep you from malaria but it would help if you did get it. �18 Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, because it was supposed to keep you from getting it. Veteran: Well, it was a terrible tasting thing. If you ever got—if you ever tried to chew one, you would never forget it. Interviewer: Alright. But they are getting you ready now for your operation. Now, when you joined the unit, were there a lot of men who were experienced soldiers? People who had been—fought at Guadalcanal or Bougainville or someplace like that? Veteran: Well, yeah in our division we had a lot of troops that had been in—on Guadalcanal. We had troops that had been in… Interviewer: I think in Gloucester was another place they went. Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, in Gloucester. New Guinea. [Cape Gloucester, on New Britain] Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: And of course, they had been in Australia for a short while. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Just before I joined them. Interviewer: Yeah, but that was just to recover and get a little time off. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay. So, now you go to Peleliu. Can you describe—it’s an island in the Peleliu archipelago. Did they tell you why you were going there? (00:26:11) Veteran: Oh yes. �19 Interviewer: What was the purpose? Veteran: Yeah, they…Our—the general got on the speakerphone and gave us quite a lecture that within 3 days, we would have this island and the air base on it, in order to have better connections with getting aircraft to and from Japan and a place for aircraft that had been to Japan and had problems and needed to land, could land because there was an airstrip on Peleliu. Interviewer: Okay. Well, I think it was kind of between Indones—you are closer to the Philippines. Veteran: It was—yeah, 10 square miles. Interviewer: Alright. And what do you remember about the invasion, the landing? Veteran: We went in in amtracs. Interviewer: And what is that? Veteran: Okay, which is—some people called them alligators. It had tracks that they run on, and they went in the water. But the bulk of the thing sit about that high out of water. And we were all—we had all gone down rope ladders and dropped into these…No, I am sorry. We didn’t that time. That time we went down. We were on an LST. We went down on the—in the—where the amtracs were at and loaded into theamtracs. And I happened to get a position where I was straddling the drive shaft that went through it and looking out the back of the amtrac. And that was my—that was the only place I had. And that’s where I rode into in the second wave. Interviewer: Okay. Now, was there a bombardment ahead of time or anything like that? (00:28:18) �20 Veteran: Oh yes. Yeah, they had shelled it for days and days and days. And you’d think there can’t be anything left. Well, they didn’t touch it. They—it was—we had very little piece of the beach the first day. And I remember going in and as we went in, why, you could begin to hear the fire coming. And they had a point about the north end of Peleliu. There was a little point that set out there and that’s where the Japanese had some boat guns dug in, the machine guns covering them and so forth. That was our biggest problem there. But as we came in, they were trying to hit the amtracs that were coming in. and I forget how many waves of amtracs there were, but from—after the amtracs, then they had—they came in in ducks, which was a different type of vehicle. Interviewer: Yeah, it’s an amphibious truck instead of an amphibious track vehicle, yeah. Veteran: And but as we went up over the reef, why, it went—the amtrac went up just like this. It almost felt like you were going to tip over backwards, you know. But by the same token, looking out the rear, I was seeing these shells. And I saw what happened to some of the amtracks. They were hit before they were come ashore, which was—our air unit was just wiped out in one of those. So, we had no people that dealt with air strikes left. But anyway, we pulled in up onto the beach. And then those old amtracks you had to jump over the side. There was no rampart. Interviewer: Okay. (00:30:33) Veteran: And so, I went over on this side. There was a shell that hit over on this side. And then all the guys that were driving the amtracs said, “Get out of here! Get out of here! Get out of here! I got to go back and get more people.” So, it went over. And… Interviewer: So, now you are on— Veteran: Basically, you just started ducking because it was nothing but fire coming. �21 Interviewer: Alright. Did you try to get off the beach or you just stay where you were? Veteran: Well, first thing you did was dig a hole, try and get some cover, because we were getting a lot of fire on the beach. They shot a lot of people on the beach. Interviewer: Okay. Now, was there opposition directly in front of you so you couldn’t go forward? Veteran: We had—they had troops in front of us, but the big item was this peninsula that stuck out here. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And that was immediately on our left flank. And they could just rake the whole beach. Interviewer: Okay. Was the Navy—were the Navy ships trying to shoot back at that? Veteran: I am sorry? Interviewer: Was anyone shooting back at the Japanese? Veteran: Oh, well yeah. Yeah, if you could see them. But you know, spotting them…But then you would get a lot of fire going and you don’t know. You can’t spot a target every time. You don’t know what you are shooting at. Interviewer: Alright. Now, was the island—was it a volcanic island or fossilized coral or…? (00:32:13) Veteran: Yeah, it had—they—all the reef and everything was just terribly sharp. And they had owned that island for 30-some years. And I think they must have been digging on it the whole time because they had places that were 3 stories deep down into those. And they had railroad �22 tracks run down inside that they could run artillery up. They had doors that would—big steel doors that would fold shut. That—if you could call Naval gunfire in, you had to get it while it was open in order to do any good. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: That’s—it was—the first day there was pretty rough. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you just—did you have—did anyone order you to do anything that first day? Or do you just stay put? Veteran: Well, we didn’t have much choice. You couldn’t get up and go. The airstrip was relatively close to where we landed. And that of course was our first objective. But we couldn’t approach that first day at all. Interviewer: Okay. Now, what happened that first night? Once it gets dark? Veteran: I had a hole dug. And there was some activity during the night, but it was difficult to tell what was going on really. And until daylight, well then you find out what was going on at night. It was pretty wild. We had one man in our unit that went berserk and started just firing at everything and everybody. He threw a smoke—or a phosphorus grenade into the foxhole close to him that was his best buddy. And that phosphorus grenade went off and burned him real bad. And I can still remember those corpsmen hollering up and down the beach, trying to find…I forget the stuff that they had that would stop that phosphorus from just completely burning free you know. Interviewer: Right. (00:34:54) �23 Veteran: And but I don’t remember the name of it, but I remember them, you know, passing that word up and down to the—nobody had any. My sergeant wound up killing the guy that was doing all this, which…That’s…You know, that’s kind of a new experience for a 16-year-old. Interviewer: Certainly. Okay, now were—how long were you stuck on the beach? Veteran: Well, the second day I was up and running messages. Interviewer: So, were they pushing you forward into the airfield by then or…? Veteran: We took the airfield I think it was the 3rd day. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And but we were still getting the fire on it, you know, because that island was so small. No matter where you were, you were subject to it. But… Interviewer: So, when you are carrying messages, I mean, how do you—what do you do to avoid being hit? Veteran: You run fast. And offer up a little prayer and so forth. But basically, I spent most of my time just trying to find a telephone line or trying to find where I was going to deliver whatever I was supposed to deliver to whomever it was. And it was quite an education. So, I got to go a lot of different directions. But it was… Interviewer: Now, did you carry— (00:36:38) Veteran: I was still pretty ignorant of the fact, but I did make a couple of trips down through to the point. And when I got down there, we had one company down there that was literally just wiped out. And they…I just—I couldn’t get over all of the dead Marines that were laying right there on the beach. �24 Interviewer: Because that campaign, that lasted a number of weeks. I mean, it was not— Veteran: Oh yes. It went on for a long time. A matter of fact, after the war ended, there were—I think it was 30 or 40 Japanese troops who finally surrendered years after the war was over. They had lived that continuous time down in those caves and stuff that they had dug. And they had films of them, you know, when they come in to surrender. Of course, that was after we were long gone. Interviewer: Right. Now, did you carry a weapon? Veteran: Oh yes. I had an M-1. Interviewer: So, you had a rifle like anybody else. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Did you ever use it? Veteran: Yes. Yes. Whether I ever hit anybody or not is a good question, you know. If you think you see something and you think that that—then you can shoot at it, but you very seldom do you really know because basically they were dug in, and it was… (00:38:22) Veteran: They had control areas where they had dug into the ground too. And I can remember one time when I went down to the point, they had found this opening to an underground. Apparently, it was a pretty good-sized opening down under there. And but they were trying to get everybody to quiet down because they had heard some noise down in there. And they were calling down in there to make sure it wasn’t some of our troops that were down in there. And there were no answer, no answer. So, they finally just began throwing some grenades down �25 and—but I stopped and watched that for a while. Well, okay. But it was, you know, I had a job to do, and I had to go on my way. It was…It was a real learning experience for a 16-year-old kid. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: I actually turned 17 abord ship leaving Peleliu. Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were on the island, while the battle is going on and so forth, did you have a regular place that you would sleep? Or were you just always moving around? Veteran: I was—generally, I was on the beach. And that’s where I got most of my orders from and so forth, but then I was from one end to the other and all around. Interviewer: Okay. Now, had they dug in some kind of headquarters that was— Veteran: Oh yeah, they had— Interviewer: --safer? Veteran: They had a concrete block building on the airport that was—I don’t think they ever knocked that building clear down. And that was—they had some—they had worked on that island for the whole time they owned it. Interviewer: So, you took over some of the Japanese facilities then? (00:40:24) Veteran: I am sorry? Interviewer: Your headquarters—your people kind of took over some of the Japanese facilities that they captured? Veteran: No, never really use them. No. �26 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: No, we were just out in the open most of the time. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you ever see any Japanese aircraft there? Veteran: Yes. Well…Not on Peleliu. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But Okinawa, a lot of them. Yeah. That’s where the kamikaze started coming in. Interviewer: But at Peleliu they are not bothering you particularly? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: That was basically our aircraft. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And Naval gunfire. Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you remember any Army troops landing on Peleliu? Veteran: They came in to relieve us because they pulled our regiment out after 10 days. Because we were just—we were done. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: There just wasn’t enough of us left to be effective. And they pulled us around on Purple Beach. And eventually they just took us back down to our rest base. Interviewer: Alright. And how much of the regiment was left at that point? �27 Veteran: I am sorry? Interviewer: How much of the regiment was still there? Veteran: Well, they took our First Regiment. Is—was the first ones they took out off the island. Interviewer: Right. But what kind of losses had you taken? Veteran: Some companies were just practically gone. And like the Company K that was down on that point, I think there were 8 men left out of that company. Interviewer: Alright. So, did you go back to Pavuvu? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. (00:42:09) Veteran: Well, and of course, they had a hospital ship offside. They couldn’t get anybody out there until, I don’t know, the 3rd or 4th day before they could really get many of the wounded out. Because I know when I first—when we first got on the island, I had come up to a—against— they had a big tank trench that was dug along there down deep. And I thought that looks like pretty good cover. So, I jumped down in there and I looked over here and there is—I think there was 4 of those guys that were our Navy radiomen. What are they doing over here? Well, and then I realized they had all been tagged. They were all wounded. They had them tagged for waiting to get them off to the hospital ships. But it took a little bit to register on me what was— what the deal was. It…We—it was just a pretty tough deal. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Yeah. �28 Interviewer: Alright. Now, once you are back on Pavuvu, do they start bringing in replacements and rebuilding the regiment? Veteran: We—well, yeah when we got back down to Pavuvu, we started getting—started getting some wounded back from—that they had a Naval base over—I can’t remember the name of the island. But they had a Naval hospital over there. And that’s where they took a lot of our wounded. Little by little, why, some of the wounded guys would come back into the company. Interviewer: And did they say— (00:44:03) Veteran: Well, I had one good friend that had been hit in the right rear end. And when he came back from the hospital, why, he didn’t have any right rear end. And he was on crutches. They thought that he would recover but they finally took him back to the hospital. I never saw him again, so I don’t know just what happened from him. But… Interviewer: How long did you stay there? Did you stay there until you went to Okinawa or…? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: That’s a long time. Veteran: Yeah, we stayed there until we got ready to go to Okinawa. Interviewer: Okay. Now, at what point did you get new guys coming in? Veteran: Well, our regiment was out of there in 10 days. �29 Interviewer: No, I mean on—when you are on Pavuvu and they have to rebuild the regiment. Did you get new men coming in? Veteran: The 81st Army unit relieved us. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Because I can remember somebody, as we were going in—or out—they were going in. One guy said, “What outfit is this?” he said, “It’s 81st wildcat division.” He said, “You might be the wildcats now, but you’ll be tame pussycats before long.” Interviewer: Alright. Okay. I guess—I was asking about your first Marine regiment. You take a lot of casualties. Veteran: I am sorry? Interviewer: You took a lot of—but your unit, your regiment took a lot of casualties. Veteran: Oh yeah. Interviewer: You go back. But then, did they send you a bunch of new recruits? Veteran: Oh yeah. Interviewer: To replace the old ones. Veteran: We re-fitted. Of course, a lot of people lost a lot of gear and so forth, so they had to resupply us with a lot of things. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you get to know the new guys? Did you start working with the new ones? �30 Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah, they would come in, and of course we were all living in tents, and just fill in the vacant spots. Interviewer: Okay. So, it sounds like you spend the better part of 6 months or something close to that on Pavuvu. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Rebuilding. Veteran: Yeah, that was our rest base. (00:46:22) Interviewer: So—yeah, so what was a typical day like while you were there? What did you do? Veteran: Make work. Make work. That’s all. You’d see one team coming down digging a ditch, another team coming down and filling in the ditch. Another crew went over. They were digging in this coral pit, digging up coral, loading it in trucks and bringing it up to our living area and filling in the swamps so we weren’t living in a swamp. But that went—that was a 24-hour day job. They would just—you would work a shift and then go back and work another shift and that. And oh, doing night azimuth trips where you would take your compass and shoot an azimuth at night and go out into the jungle and go so far, so long, so far…And eventually, you were supposed to come back out where you went in. but oftentimes, it was daylight before some of them come back. And it was so dark that we got to picking up pieces of rotten wood that would fluorescent and sticking that in the back of your belt so you could follow the guy ahead of you. And I can remember following one of those fluorescents and, all of a sudden, I stepped off in a big hole. But that was almost a joke, you know. �31 Interviewer: Okay, yeah. Did they do anything to provide you with entertainment? Were there movies or anything? (00:48:21) Veteran: They had a movie set up. A bunch of coconut logs laid out where we could sit on the coconut logs and watch the movies. And of course, that was a big deal, you know. We watched those movies. And at one time then, is the one time that I saw Bob Hope and part of his company. They had been over on Guadalcanal, and they heard that the 1st division was on Peleliu. And they didn’t bring their whole crew over there, but they did bring a few of them over there. And so, we saw that show. And he had…Oh my, I can’t remember this comedian who was with him. Had a big mustache. Can’t remember his name now, but and he had 3 or 4 dancers, you know. And so, he come over and put on a big show for us. We weren’t on his schedule but when he found out we were over there, he come over and they had to come over in Piper Cubs because that is the only strip we had was a Piper Cub strip. So, they couldn’t bring a whole bunch of people over there. Interviewer: Right. Now, did you get to go off the island at all? Or were you just stuck there the whole time? Veteran: No, no. Well, we went swimming. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Or I would look for shells and things like that. Interviewer: But you didn’t get a leave or furlough or anything? �32 Veteran: Oh no. I never had a leave the whole time I was in the Marine Corps. I had a 2-day pass just before I went overseas in World War 2. And my mother and my little brother come out to visit me. And I got a 2-day pass to have with them. Interviewer: Okay. (00:50:13) Veteran: That was the only leave I ever had out of the Marine Corps. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, now— Veteran: They paid me for it all and you know. But… Interviewer: Okay, so you are on Pavuvu for a long time. You have this routine you are doing. Did you think maybe the war was going to end before you got back into it? Veteran: No. No. Interviewer: Okay. I guess they were still expecting to go to Japan. Veteran: We were getting ready for the big show up in Okinawa. Interviewer: Right. Okay. And Okinawa—so, what—when the time comes then to go to Okinawa, now what happens? Veteran: Excuse me, I— Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I might have to change the battery on my hearing aid. Interviewer: Alright. You can go ahead and do that. Veteran: Is that alright? �33 Interviewer: Yeah. So, we are talking here about getting ready now to go to Okinawa. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Alright, so what do you remember about that voyage? Veteran: That we were on a troop ship for 30 days. Building the convoy up and getting everybody together. We got off of the ship on an island that they had fixed up for just that purpose: to let troops get off. And they served some beer, and they served some drinks. They had basketball courts and a few things set up like that. I can’t remember the name of that island, but we were there one day. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we got off the ship. But the rest of the time, I think we were on there—on that troop ship—about 30 days. It was a long time. Interviewer: Okay. Now, during that time, could you be on deck a lot of the time? Or did you have to be— (00:52:18) Veteran: We could get up on deck as long as there wasn’t any kind of alert or anything going on. But it was just—we just played a lot of pinochle. And there was a lot of poker games going on. Interviewer: Alright. And then once the—you actually start to go into Okinawa, what do you remember about that? Fleet bombardment, whatever… Veteran: Well…I can remember the night before and I was very apprehensive all night long because I could see another deal just like Peleliu. And yet, when it come our time to go in, we were in a freeway at that time for some reason. And yeah, we went in again on Amtracks. But I know at the control boat, our CO was on that control boat. And we were in what they called a �34 freeway. And they said, “We will send you in whenever.” They sent—as soon as we got there, they said, “Go on in.” Oh crap. We walked ashore and never fired a shot. Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you remember the bombardment before this? Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Okay, what were— Veteran: They—air bombs and Naval gunfire. They just—you’d think they were sinking the whole place; you know. And but they weren’t there. Interviewer: Okay. Now— Veteran: They had evacuated all of their troops. Interviewer Right. Veteran: To the other end of the island where they were going to make their defense. The one time that they did not defend the beach. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And we were all just stunned, you know. But it was great, you know. Just walk ashore. Interviewer: Now, at that time when you are making the landing, did any Japanese aircraft show up or did they come later? (00:54:22) Veteran: No, they came right away. Interviewer: Okay. �35 Veteran: Yeah, because I can remember them because all the ships were just firing like crazy. And I think they probably shot down almost as many of our planes as they did of others. Because there was a Zero that came down along the beach. And behind him was—I think it was a Corsair? Interviewer: Quite possibly. A Corsair or Hellcat, yeah. Veteran: But anyway, one of ours was shot down from all of this anti-aircraft coming off all of these ships out in the bay. But the Japanese, that one got away. But many of them…Well, toward the end of Okinawa, when they were sending in just planes and planes and planes, they had moved us up to the other end of the island and we had a radio set up that was air warning DAT.And they would call in—I’d say flight number so and so, so many bogies. So far from Bolo Point. And then they would come on pretty soon and say splash, 10 bogies from flight number so and so, so far from Bolo Point. And then, eventually, why, the few planes that would get through would come in and you would see them go out and try to get those ships. Interviewer: Right. (00:56:18) Veteran: And I—that’s one time I felt sorry for those guys because you can’t dig a foxhole out on steel decks. Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, to go back, so basically you have seen the spectacular bombardment. You know, the air battles start. All this stuff is going on. But you just go on shore and there is nobody shooting at you. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. What did you do then once you landed? �36 Veteran: Went inland. We went into—first place we went into was an airstrip. And well…And then we stayed. Part of us went back and stayed along the beach there for quite some time. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then our regiment went on up and they literally took one end of the island with practically no opposition to mount anything. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But there were so many natives on there and they had—the Japanese had used that for a dumping place for their insane, for their people with mumu, which is elephantiasis. And the other disease… Interviewer: Leprosy? Veteran: Yeah, leprosy. Sorry, let me get that. Interviewer: Alright, so we had gotten to the point in your story now where you are on Okinawa, they have kind of cleared off most of the island. There is fighting going on in one end of the island. You have spent a lot of time still near the beach. Now, would you go back and forth across the island to deliver messages or just stay on the beach? (00:58:23) Veteran: Yep. Yeah, I did a lot of that. Interviewer: Okay. And you were— Veteran: And but then they moved us to the other end of the island where we set up this air control. But anyway, that was right toward the end of the war. �37 Interviewer: Right. Okay. Yeah, and so at that point—so you are not really close to heavy fighting that is going on. Veteran: No. No, we weren’t. Interviewer: That was the other end of the island. Veteran: We weren’t in it at all. Interviewer: Okay. So, you are manning the stat— Veteran: We were for a while but not for long. Interviewer: Okay. And you were talking a little bit about the civilian population was still on Okinawa. Veteran: Oh yeah. Interviewer: And it included people with physical illnesses— Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: And mental illness and so forth. Now, did those people come around where you were? Veteran: Oh yes. Yeah, they were around and a lot later, they did gather them all up. But at one time, when we were up there, we had four little orphans—kids—living with us. Utico, Satic0, Jeto, Tato… Interviewer: That’s four. Veteran: And…I can’t remember the fifth name. �38 Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: But anyway, they were all orphans and they just decided to take a liking to us and stayed there with us. But they eventually came around and rounded up all the civilians and moved them into a certain area. And but when we were there, some Japanese had come in and I was on a—delivering a message. And some Japs come in and dropped a bunch of knee mortars. (01:00:21) Veteran: I think they were shooting at a little Piper airstrip [for Piper Cub observation aircraft] that was right there. But the whole works come over right into our area. My lieutenant got shrapnel. He had like 100 holes in his tent. And he was hit a number of times. Practically everybody that was there got small pieces because knee mortars, that’s what they were. They were in to make casualties, not to necessarily kill but to make casualties so that they would have somebody to shoot at when somebody come to help them, you know. But practically everybody in the company got hit. And I was gone. Interviewer: Right. So, the Japanese would just sneak—are there people hiding somewhere? Or they brought them in by sea? Veteran: They had been bypassed, evidently. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They had been bypassed and for some reason, they decided to come down and dump some knee mortars on that particular area. That—and then shortly after that, well the war ended. �39 Interviewer: Alright. Now, this tape is about to end so we are going to pause here. Okay, now we have taken your story to kind of the end of World War 2. Before that was announced, were you getting ready to go to Japan? Veteran: Yes. Yea, that was—we were scheduled to go into Japan. And that was what we were figuring on doing up until the time that they dropped bombs. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you doing more training and drills to…? (01:02:14) Veteran: No. At that time, we were just reorganizing and…Of course, it was not long after that— it ended—that they sent us to China. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: We went up there to primarily repatriate the Japanese who had been in there since 1937. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And never known defeat. And that was quite an experience. Interviewer: Where did you go in China? Veteran: Tientsin. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Which was a big international port. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: It had a history of troops from all over the world, really, that were stationed in there. Marines were in there for years. But French troops, the German…You know, all kinds of troops �40 had been in there. Italian. There was a whole lot of Italians, White Russians…A little bit of everybody. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But when we got up there, why, it was—oh, there was armies of Japanese troops that had never known defeat. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And they were all still there armed and so forth. We never had any trouble with them. Our unit was to get them back to Japan with nothing. They weren’t allowed to take hardly anything with them. And so, they were selling stuff, they were throwing stuff away. They were, you know, doing about everything they could. But we had no problems with them. We did have some problems with some of the Chinese because if you—at that time when we went up there, they disbanded our unit because we were an assault unit. Interviewer: Right. (01:04:13) Veteran: Which we had—they had no use for anymore. And they assigned me to the 1st Signal Company, and they took me into this building, and they said, “This is a teletype. You are a teletype operator.” I didn’t even know what a teletype was. But my job there was to sit there and type four letter code blurbs of messages the whole time I was on duty. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: When I was not on duty, I was almost free to go most any place. But that’s not a good idea in China. And supposedly we were supposed to be on a certain leave and, you know, you get so much liberty so often and so forth. But they made the mistake of allowing people to sign �41 out to go to what they called the division gym or the division theater. Well, that didn’t mean anything. You’d sign out and go wherever you wanted to go. But it was—it was a mess. It was a mess. They—we had—you know, they took all of us guys up there that had been down to the Pacific a couple—three years even—and turned them loose. And you could buy anything for nothing. I was a PFC, and I had all the money in the world to go out and eat and there was a lot of—like the Italian soldiers who were there when the Japanese come in and they just sold all their weapons off and everything and disbanded and started Italian restaurants. (01:06:11) Veteran: You know, and all of these—like the White Russians, I got to know a White Russian young man who was in the money market business because China had two types of money. One type, the exchange rate was like 31,000 to 1. The new Chinese money that they were printing was like maybe 1000 to 1. And so, people were working this money market by—and that was what this Russian—young Russian—I can’t even remember his name now. But I got acquainted with him and I—we went to restaurants a couple of times together. Some Chinaman would come running in and hand him an envelope and he would open it and look at it and tell him someplace else to go, you know, to exchange this. We had people in the 1st Marine Air Wing who were flying from one place to another, and they got in on this act of money changing. And they just— they would buy it cheap here, sell it high over here and vice versa, you know. And it became quite a thing over there. But I never got into that, other than I would search around, see where I could find the best exchange, you know. But theoretically, we weren’t supposed to be spending American money there anyway. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: They would give us those fake pieces of money. �42 Interviewer: Okay. And how dangerous was it there? (01:08:06) Veteran: If you were by yourself, it was very dangerous. If you were 2 or 3 together, they didn’t usually hassle you. But it was not safe to go anyplace in China by yourself. And it took a while to learn that because there was—there was a lot of things going on. It was pretty rough. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, were there—did you have—was there prostitution going on? Veteran: Oh, the prostitution was 90% of their money. It was just unreal. Just absolutely unreal. And guys would go out and mess with that stuff and just catch all kinds of diseases. I mean, terrible. But the biggest thing was go out and get drunk. Just party it up, you know. And if the Navy was in town, why, we’d fight with the Navy. If there happened to be any Army troops around, we would fight with the Army troops. Fight over whose bar you were in, you know. It even got to the point where, you know, we’d start fighting—if there were none of those guys around, we would fight between regiments or between companies. And you know, whoever was available and was—but it just got real bad. And when we first got there, they allowed us to carry weapons on our—when we went out on liberty when we had free time. But they finally tried to put a stop to that. So, then everybody carried a Kabar down in their boot. And so, you had your knife anyway. But it was a terrible thing. The bars were just rampant, and I started drinking and just oh my…Didn’t know—didn’t have any sense to me at all. It…But it was an education. (01:10:27) Interviewer: Yeah. How long did— Veteran: I was there, I was in China about 6 months. Interviewer: Okay. That’s a long time. Alright. So yet—now you find—now from there do you get to go back home now? Or what happens? �43 Veteran: Well, eventually I did. I had enough points to go home but they didn’t have ships to take us home because they were too busy hauling Chinese from one point in China to another point in China. They were hauling Chinese troops up to the north where the communists’ troops were now beginning to—they had a train that run between Peking and Tientsin. And they would sit up in the hills and shoot at the train as it went by. And eventually after some of us left, they even attacked one of our units that was down on a—I don’t—by themselves. And it got pretty serious then. But up until then it was a lot of well, the communists are coming to town tonight, so we’d be on 100% alert. Well, nobody would show up. So, it got to be kind of a hocus pocus thing, you know. But eventually, after I had left, why, then it did get pretty serious. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And they finally pulled everybody out of there. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how did they get you back home? Veteran: On a ship. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Just a big—a troop transport? Or…? Veteran: Yeah, just a regular troop ship. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. (01:12:08) Interviewer: Alright. And was it a quiet voyage back or did you have bad weather? �44 Veteran: No, no didn’t have it then. We had bad weather when we left Okinawa. We had run into a lot of bad weather because there was a big storm came up and our ship—I was on a work detail. The ship was basically empty other than the work detail had gone on early. And we went out to sea to ride it out but oh my…They couldn’t cook anything, they couldn’t, you know. They’d feed us sandwiches and that was about all we could get to eat. And you would have to stand there and hold onto something to…You weren’t allowed to go on the quarter deck or any place above decks at all. But it was—we rode out a big hurricane. It was a—that was my first experience with a real storm. Interviewer Right. Okay. Now, when you get back to the states, where do you land? Veteran: I went to San Diego. Back to San Diego. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we eventually…Well, it didn’t take us too long really. They put us out. Interviewer: Okay. So, you got your discharge in San Diego? Veteran: Yep. Got my discharge. Interviewer: Now, did they have you—ask you to join the Reserves? Or…? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I did. Interviewer: And why did you do that? �45 Veteran: Because I made corporal. World War 2 and it took me that long to make corporal. And one of the things they said was, “Well, at least you’ll keep your rank.” And at that time, a corporal in the Marine Corps didn’t do work details, he might be in charge of work detail. But basically, he wouldn’t have to do the work that PFCs and privates did, you know. So, I thought well, maybe that’s a good idea. So, I signed up. Interviewer: Alright. But in the meantime, you are out of the Marines. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Where did you go then after you got out? (01:14:25) Veteran: I came here to Wichita and started to get an education because I had quit high school. I never even—just barely started the 10th grade. But I took my GED test. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And got a high school equivalency. And started going to college to get an education because I began to realize I needed one. And… Interviewer: So, what college did you go to? Veteran: Well, I started at Wichita State, but I didn’t last very long out there because I had one class out there that had 220-some people in it. And there was some guy sitting next to me playing a radio. And I thought man, this is not for me, so I went to Friends University. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I loved it out there because the biggest class I ever had at Friends was 25 people. When I took—I was majoring in music. And when I took composition, I was the only one that signed up for the class. So, I took composition by conference. And it just so happens that the �46 man teaching composition was another ex-Marine. We hit it off real well. And I had him for an instructor in some other classes. And we just—I just did great with him. Interviewer: Okay. And what were you planning on doing with that? Veteran: I was planning on teaching music theory in a small Christian college. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, did you graduate from Friends? Veteran: Yes, I graduated from Friends, and I thought I was going to go to Wichita State and get my master’s degree. And I went out to the VA, and I said, “You know, I would like to sign up to get some more education.” “Well, you have had all that you can have.” Well, by then I was married and had 1 daughter. And that just wasn’t going to work too well. So, that’s when I decided that I wasn’t going to be a—be what I thought I would. (01:16:51) Interviewer: Okay. So—now what year was this now? When you graduated from college. Veteran: ’53, I think. Interviewer: So, that’s after Korea. Veteran: No. That’s… Interviewer: Because Korea starts 19— Veteran; Yeah. Yeah, that’s after Korea. Yeah, I am sorry. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: No, because I had gone to 3 years of college before Korea started. Interviewer: Okay. �47 Veteran: And that’s when I was called back. One week after Korea broke out, our Reserve Marine Corps was called up. And 2 weeks later, we were in California and formed up the 7th Regiment of the 1st Division. Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you get there and join the 7th Regiment, what proportion of the people do you think were World War 2 vets? Veteran: Probably 50%. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Pretty good percentage of them. Interviewer: Alright. And how long do you think you stayed in California then? Veteran: Not very long. We formed up the 7th Regiment, loaded it up on ships, and 3 weeks later we made the landing in Inchon. Interviewer: Alright. Now, what do you remember about that? (01:18:16) Veteran: I remember going in in a amtracagain. And sailing past a big ship that was firing 16inch guns over our heads. And come in and made the landing. And fortunately, we didn’t run into anything real drastic. For quite a little while. And matter of fact, that was a good move. That was MacArthur’s thing. Interviewer: About the last smart thing he did, yeah. Veteran: Yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s the last smart thing he did. But he—you know, we went in and went…We got over about halfway through Korea. The South Korea. Interviewer: Yeah. �48 Veteran: And then they decided that they would just pull us out. And we come back around. They pulled us back out and we got onboard a ship and went clear around the south end of Korea, went up into North Korea. They had a landing up atWonsan. MacArthur says, “Just go right on up and take North Korea.” Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And we made a very peaceful landing there after a certain length of time. It took some ships a long time to clean up the mines that had been placed out in there. But we finally go there. But then we began running into some opposition. And some of it was serious, some of it was just kind of nitpicky stuff, you know. Interviewer: Now, was your opposition at this point North Korean? Or were you getting Chinese showing up? (01:20:19) Veteran: No, we didn’t get the Chinese until we got clear. We got within 16 miles of the Yalu River. It’s where we had tow regiments up there. We had the 7th Regiment and the 5th Regiment of the 1st Division. And the 1st Regiment of the 1st Division was back here about 30 miles. And they had a perimeter set up there. But that’s when the Chinese come in. Interviewer: Okay. Now, what did—when you are going into Korea—because you go in, did you go through Seoul or close to Seoul? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We went through Seoul, and it was—you know, it was just leveled. �49 Interviewer: Right. Okay. And when you come around, you go to North Korea. Now what was the country like? Veteran: Mountainous. And very calm for a while. Matter of fact, I could remember one of the first buildings we stayed in was a—had been a university of some type or another. Because they had a great big pump organ in there. And I played the piano. I finally found someone to come over and pump the organ for a while for me so I could play. But nobody wanted that job full time. But we, at that time, we weren’t—you know, weren’t getting much things. We—as far as us going into North Korea, we had the North Koreans beat. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: At the 37th parallel. 39th parallel. Interviewer: Well, 38th is the official one but yeah. Veteran: 38th. Interviewer: Yeah. But they had really worn themselves out in the earlier fighting and now they were collapsing. (01:22:16) Veteran: We had cut off a whole lot of them. Because they took our regiment and attached us to the 1st Cavalry Army division for about a month. And we were supposed to be out rounding up these Korean, North Korean, troops that had been bypassed. Well, we didn’t find any to speak of you know. Because all they did was just change clothes. So, we were assigned the 1st Cavalry for about 30 days. And that’s the best we ever ate at Korea. Interviewer: Okay. So, Army food was better than Marine food. Veteran: Yeah. That was a whole different thing. �50 Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: But then they finally pulled us back. And we began our trek up north. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you— Veteran: The further north we went, the more opposition that we received. Interviewer: Now, was it starting to get cold too? Veteran: What? Interviewer: Was the weather getting colder now? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Very cold. Very cold. And a lot of wind and a lot of snow and it was miserable. But… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We—our regiment got to within not 16 miles of the Yalu. Interviewer: Right. Okay. And were— Veteran: And they hit our two regiments with six full Chinese divisions. And all they had to do was cross the bridge and they were on us. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, they weren’t even really cold yet. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, a lot of them had already been positioned inside North Korea waiting for you. Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah, they were just waiting. �51 Interviewer: So, you are in the area around the Chosin Reservoir then. Veteran: Yep. That’s right. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, when that fighting starts, what happens to you? (01:24:05) Veteran: Well, the first thing that happened to me—well, we pulled—they hauled me and a bunch of other guys down and we stood in the crick bank, frozen crick bank, for…I don’t know, probably 24 hours because they thought the Chinese were coming through there. Well, they never showed up there. But then we held up there. They told us to hold up there for 2 days and we did, which allowed the Army over on the other coast to pull—start pulling—back. But then when we started pulling back, then we had a horse of a different color. The first thing that happened then: we were at Yudam-ni. That’s as far as we got. But the captain called me, and he said, “If you can’t carry it and run, burn it.” I thought oh, well, that don’t sound too good. But he knew what was coming. And we had a single road that we—it was the only way out. And they had already infiltrated down along—and they had troops set up all along there, just waiting for us to try and get out of there. And the two regiments played leapfrog with each other coming out of there. And you would—and of course it was cold, like 30 below at night. Interviewer: Now, were you just a rifleman or were you a communications guy? What was your job? Veteran: At that time, I was in communications for 7th Regiment. And but, when this started, you were troops. Interviewer: Right. �52 Veteran: There was no particular job, you know. As a matter of fact, a lot of the stuff we destroyed was stuff that was used for that kind—for communications and so on. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:26:25) Veteran: Basically, we were all troops. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And we started leapfrogging out of there. And the 1st regiment had a perimeter set up at Hagaru. And that was where we wanted to get to first to coordinate, get back with them, and there was a British battalion that was up there with us, with them. And but they had come from down south and they had taken terrible casualties getting up to that perimeter. But we had to go on this main road. It was the only way out. And vehicles were freezing up. If you didn’t keep it running constantly, they would freeze up and they were done. They would just shove them off the cliffs. But we started down that road and everybody walked except wounded. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They—and for a long while, we were trying to load up dead too as we went along to pick up whatever dead we could and put them in the 6x trucks. But when we got to Hagaru, by the time we got there, we had so many more casualties that we had to unload all of those trucks we had filled with dead, and they were buried there. I think there was like…I can’t remember the number that we buried, but I can remember they just bulldozed a big hole out and covered them up. Interviewer: Right. As you were making that move down to Hagaru, how close do you think you got to the Chinese? (01:28:18) �53 Veteran: About as close as I am to you. Interviewer: Okay. So— Veteran: Because every time we would come around a bend, they were situated up here and we would receive fire. And at one time, they ran through us, turned around and run back through us on the road. And at that time, our whole S-2 unit got wiped out. My captain got machine gunned in both legs. And I just—I can remember seeing—I was hiding behind a tank once. And I’d look around and when the machi—when the tank would fire its machine gun, this was at night, I could see this Chinaman laying out there. He was dead. But every time they would fire, there would be enough light, and you could see him. I imagine that Chinaman got shot 150 times because he was one of the targets you could see in the dark. But it—eventually, if they would stop shooting long enough, we’d get on the road and literally just run down that road as fast as we could run. And there again, nobody riding except wounded. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And we pulled into the perimeter at Hagaru. And we stayed there…I can’t remember now how many days we stayed there, but as we came in, we had to run by a tank that was burning. And there was a lieutenant that was trying to time it with the snipers that were up here shooting and telling us when to run, you know. It come my turn to run around that tank and I headed around that tank, and I slipped on the ice and my helmet went one way and my rifle went another way. (01:30:34) Veteran: And I got my rifle back. I just left the helmet there because there were helmets laying every place. And we finally got within and then they said—when we got around where they couldn’t shoot at us anymore, why, then they said, “Well, there’s some warming tents set up �54 down there. Go down there and find a place where you can get in and get sleep.” Because we hadn’t slept at all. And I went out and found a place. Not on a cot or anything, but on the ground, close to an oil burning stove, and went sound asleep. I mean, I just passed out. Interviewer: How long had it taken you to get from your original position down there? Veteran: Well, to that point, it was about 4 days. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yep, it was just running and stop, run and hide, run and stop. Interviewer: And now that you have gotten this far, you still have to get back down to the coast. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: So, if you— Veteran: Still got to get all the way down. And that’s where we run into a whole lot more fire. When we first began to move out of that area, then I can remember seeing Chinamen coming down off of the hill, just like a—a lot of them had suits on. And it just looked like sheets of them coming down. And if it was clear enough, then we could get some air power in. That’s—air power is the only thing that saved us up there. Because they would hit those, and you would see a black spot show up there and then pretty soon it would just fill in. There were so many of them coming. And but, thankfully we got enough of that air power in when it wasn’t snowing so bad. But when it was snowing bad, it was cold, it was bitter cold. But basically, we were just running down that road. (01:32:56) Interviewer: Mhmm. And how long did it take to get down? �55 Veteran: Ten days. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We spent ten days that way. Interviewer: Now, was that worse than the first four days or about the same? Which part of that evacuation was— Veteran: The first eight days were terrible. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because we got down so far and then it—right after we cleared out and when we got to Hungnam, that—they had a big river around Hungnam. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: And we pulled into there and they had ships ready to take us out. Interviewer: Alright. But I guess I was sort of asking too—I mean, was the trip from the reservoir down to Hagaru, and then you had Hagaru down to the coast. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Were those two trips about the same in terms of how scary they were? Or was one more dangerous than the other? Veteran: Well, just getting started was the hard part. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because we took—that’s where the bulk of our casualties were. �56 Interviewer: Because I guess— Veteran: But there are still 7000 missing up there. Well, not all Marines but—we were on the Army side too. But they are continually finding people. Matter of fact, when I went to Washington DC with the flight about 5 or 6 years ago, that next morning they were burying a young Marine whose body they had just recently found in North Korea. And he was being buried up at Arlington. Interviewer: Okay. (01:34:37) Veteran: And but he was being buried the day we left to come back. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, I would have loved to have gone to that service. But I was tickled to death to get to go the 2 days that I went up there. Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, now they have gotten you back down to Hungnam. Now what happens? Veteran: They evacuate us out of Hagaru. They put us on a ship where they had—evidently, it had been some kind of a…A pleasure ship of some kind. Interviewer: Okay, a passenger ship. Yep. Veteran: Yeah, a passenger ship. They had two galleys, they had hot water. They had everything going. And they were serving food 24 hours a day in those two galleys. They had hot water running and they—those of us that didn’t have any clean underwear, they were supplying us. The Navy was supplying us with some clean underwear. And they took us back down—we went clear back down to the capital of South Korea. �57 Interviewer: Seoul. Veteran: Seoul, yeah. And then we—yeah, we stayed there. That was about Christmastime. Because our chaplain had found a little organ someplace and he had a church service that night. He wanted me to play his organ for him. I was surprised. It was just a little old pump organ, you know. But I don’t know where he come up with it, but we had a Christmas. And then we came— we were being refit. New troops coming in and so forth. and I went to the hospital. I was in the hospital for 2 weeks. Interviewer: Okay, and why— (01:36:48) Veteran: Over at Maeson. Interviewer: Okay. And why were you in the hospital? Veteran: Well, I had frostbite. I had an infected tooth. I had pleurisy. I was sick. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And I was in the hospital I think 10 days. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then they decided that I was well enough to go. They said, “Well, go down to this casual company.” I thought well, I will be in the casual company for a while getting rest. I wasn’t in that casual company 15 minutes. And I would—had gone down to one of these tents they had set up down there and started to sit down almost. They said, “Hey Crow, we got transportation back to your unit.” I couldn’t believe it, you know. And they took me over there and they put me in the back of a C-20—what was that? Interviewer: An airplane? �58 Veteran: Twin engine. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And they had a whole bunch of mail bags in there. And me and a pilot and a copilot. And sure enough, within very short time, I was back in our area. I went in to see the sergeant, top, and I finally found him because there was a lot of strangers around there that I didn’t even know. And when I walked in to see him, he said, “Where have you been, you gold brick so-andso?” But anyway, I was back. Interviewer: Okay. At this point in the war, the Chinese are still pushing south, and they push through Seoul. (01:38:45) Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay, so did you have to move? Or what happened? Veteran: Let’s see…Well, that way—that’s when we—they assigned us over to the 1st Cavalry unit. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we were supposed to look for some of these Chinese that had been bypassed. And that didn’t work out very well. So, then they send—we went back to the line and the line then was back at about the 48th parallel. 38th parallel. Interviewer: 38th, yeah. Okay. Veteran: And then it was back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. �59 Interviewer: Okay. Is it becoming something closer to sort of trench warfare with stable lines? Veteran: Oh yeah, at the—well, not so much that as you’d go up a ways and then you’d have to come back a ways. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Veteran: Then you’d go up— Interviewer: Because the Chinese—yep. Veteran: --a ways and it was just a push and shove. And it was…It was really pretty tough. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But then it was—I can’t…Trying to remember. Interviewer: So, did you—how long—do you think you stayed into the middle of ’51 or…? (01:40:12) Veteran: We got—we were right along the parallel. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: That’s eventually where the fighting kind of settles down. Veteran: Yeah, they have just been going back and forth, back and forth and back and forth. And but I was back with my—now at that time, they had me in charge of the message center. And I would…Oh, one of the jobs I was doing was encoding messages and decoding messages on a little CSP-1500 about like this. You’d have to set all the pins and everyday was a different set of �60 pins and so forth. Because I can remember one time the Korean army on our left flank had pulled out and left us up against a river on our side and they were trying to push us off over here. And I was in a foxhole between two tanks. And I had that message coder down there, trying to type out a message. I don’t know if I was encoding it or decoding it or what. But I mean, it was—the tanks would fire, and I would jump, and the machine guns would fire. You know, I thought this is ridiculous. You know, but that’s the—they eventually got a pontoon bridge brought across that river and we were able to get out of there. But it was—it just got to be a fiasco. It was just a back and forth and back and forth. Some of those roads I think I could have run in the dark. But…But eventually, a guy come around and said, “Your enlistment has run up. I got some papers here for you to reenlist.” And I said, “No, thank you. I am not reenlisting.” He said, “Well,” he says, “if you are going back to the States, you can’t reenlist.” I said, “I am not going to reenlist.” I said, “I am going home.” And they had come out with an All-Mar [Marine Corps] Directive that said everybody with so much time in Korea, so much time in World War 2, went home no matter what. (01:42:59) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: But you couldn’t re-up. So, I eventually got on a truck, and I worried that whole time I was in that truck because they were hauling me all the way from where we were up in central Korea clear down to the Pusan. Interviewer: Did you go to Seoul or Pusan? Veteran: In the dark, at night. And I thought sure as a whirl, I am going to get killed going out of here, you know. But eventually got me down there. They put me on a ship. We went over to Japan for one day and lo and behold, they still have my sea bag over there, which we had left �61 there when we stopped in Japan on the way in. So, I got my sea bag back and then they sent us home on the ship. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And I took complete discharge then. Interviewer: Okay. So, you finally then get back home to Wichita. You get home to Kansas again. Now what do you—you went back to school to finish school? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. And then, when you graduated, the VA didn’t want to give you anymore money. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: After those first four years. So, you are not going to be the music professor. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: So, what did you do instead? (01:44:16) Veteran: Well, I got a job with a company that was selling aircraft parts. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It happened that a gentleman I knew was a top patrolman for them. And I was at—well, I was working at the sheriff’s office. I had spent 4 years at the sheriff’s office as a deputy sheriff, but mainly as a dispatcher. But having some—spent some time on patrol. Interviewer: Now, were you doing that while you were in school? Or did you do that after? �62 Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yep, while I was in school. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Because that—I worked 3rd shift there—or 2nd shift there and then I worked 3rd shift at Allway Sutton Company. And I went to school in the daytime, and I slept here and there. Interviewer: I guess. So, your family did not see you? Veteran: It was tough. It was tough because I had a wife and a child. And of course, they suffered when I got called back to Korea. They—my wife didn’t get any allotment for 4 months. Interviewer: Wow. Veteran: So, I had a good friend of mine that worked at OK Transport Company in town. He was a good friend of mine, and he loaned my wife money and wouldn’t take any of it back until I got home. And so, she got by for those 4 months, but it was a mess. Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. But now you wind up working for an aircraft parts company? Veteran: Yeah, I worked for a company for about 8 years. And then I went to work for another company for probably 6 or 7 years. And then I decided I was going to start my own company. So, I paired up with a good friend of mine. And he had a company that he was doing plastic supplies. And he had been dabbling in aircraft parts some. And I said, “Well, we will go see what we can do.” So, we just eventually split it up and he had one company and I had another company, and we did very well. And I was—I enjoyed it. And that’s what I retired from. (01:46:53) �63 Interviewer: Alright. Now, to think back to the time that you spent in the Marine Corps, how do you think that affected you? Did you change because of it or learn anything? Veteran: Well, I think I just got a little smarter. Began to realize, you know, that there was something more important than fishing or hunting or, you know, things like that that I enjoyed so much. Or like going down to play pool in the pool hall instead of going to school, and things like that. I began to realize that there was other things that needed to be done. And it was a…I changed a long ways. It—war has a way of changing your mind on a lot of things. I was—I felt so fortunate to get through as well as I did. And matter of fact, I never filed for compensation until about a year ago. That’s the first time that I went out. I used to go out to the VA once in a while after World War 2. And I just—it was such a hassle. Just a complete hassle. I just—I said, “To heck with it.” And I just give up on it. Interviewer: Okay. And— (01:48:24) Veteran: But then when my wife come down ill, I began to realize I am going to be stuck with some pretty big care bills here for a while. I said, “I am going to go up there to the government and see if I can get some compensation for frozen feet and loss of hearing and whatever.” So, I went out and I was amazed this time. They just went just like this. Interviewer: Mhmm. Well, good for them. Veteran: And I—first thing I knew, well, I was getting some compensation for hearing and my feet. And up until then, all I had ever heard was you have too much money. You have too much money. And well, so…So what? �64 Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Well, you clearly have done well for yourself. And it makes for a very good story, so I am going to close here. I would like to thank you for taking the time to share it today. Veteran: Well, I appreciate what you are doing because I know that people need to know what some people gave up for—because we lost so many great people. So many of them. And I just…And so much of it was mistakes. Mistakes that were made by leaders or thinkers or what have you. It…And it was a shame. But that’s about it. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, soldiers have to do what they have to do. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: You did your job. Alright. Thank you. (01:50:16) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CrowW2147V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Crow, William Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07 Title A name given to the resource Crow, William (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource William Crow was born on October 4th, 1927 in Butte, Montana. He primarily grew up in Wichita, Kansas. In 1943, he altered his birthdate on his birth certificate so that he could join the Marine Corps at 16 years old. William completed his basic training in San Diego, California. He did combat training at Camp Pendleton and then later completed communication school. He was part of the 3rd battalion, 1st regiment, in the 1st Marine division that was involved in World War 2. He was sent overseas to Pavuvu in the Solomon Islands and then to Peleliu, Okinawa, and China. William’s primary assignment was to deliver messages by foot if communication systems failed. During his time serving in World War 2, he was involved in various skirmishes. He was promoted to corporal by the end of the war. Upon returning home after the war, William joined the Marine Corps Reserve. His unit was eventually called to California to help form the 7th regiment of the 1st division in response to the Korean War. He then went overseas to both North Korea and South Korea. William was involved in various skirmishes during his time serving in the Korean War. After the war, he studied music at Friends University and graduated in 1953. William lives with his family in Wichita, Kansas. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/decc0cc5d54b3ddfbb8e27b716e42f96.mp4 67a4c19846c72e4989ab76f5f8bf68b4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3394f55dd0085df64820af0f37cee9e9.pdf dfe852472733812af8bf299952014deb PDF Text Text Cornelius, Philip Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Philip Cornelius Length of Interview: (38:55) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Philip Cornelius of Grand Rapids, Michigan. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, now Philip can you start us off with some with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were you born?” June 1st 1925, Blodgett hospital. Interviewer: “And what town is that in?” East Grand Rapids. Interviewer: “Okay east Grand Rapids, Michigan, alright. Now did you grow up in east Grand Rapids?” (00:31) Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, what did your family do for a living then?” My family was in the furniture business. Interviewer: “Okay and-” �Cornelius, Philip Well they had, they also owned the Wolverine Brass Works. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now what was business like for them in the 30’s?” Good. Interviewer: “Okay so this is the depression?” They- In those days they only sold directly to plumbers and some stores, they had the Wolverine Brass Works. Interviewer: “Okay, so you did okay during the depression then?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay alright, now did you know people who had more trouble?” (1:31) Oh probably, the only thing I remember is I was in high school during those days. Interviewer: “Okay now when you were going to high school, before Pearl Harbor, did you pay much attention to what was happening in the world?” Oh yes, I always kept up with news and I knew, I also knew I was gonna be in the service, by the time I- I was 18 when I graduated because I had rheumatic fever in the eighth grade and I was in bed for six months because that’s what they did in those days so you didn’t have a heart problem, and that was terrible, but I kept up with my grades and I graduated when I was 18 so it wasn’t so bad. Interviewer: “Now do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” Oh my yes. �Cornelius, Philip Interviewer: “So how did you learn about it?” Radio. Interviewer: “Okay now when that news came, was that a surprise?” Not really, I was very active with what was going on in the world, and I knew we were all in trouble, and also because I was 18 I went in pretty fast. Interviewer: “Right, well you were 16 when Pearl Harbor happened.” Yes. Interviewer: “So you were still in school but you knew as soon as you finished high school you were on- Now did you actually complete high school at the time?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay and then when did you actually enter the service?” (3:42) Boy….I would say June of ‘43. Interviewer: “Okay so right after you graduated?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now what branch of the service did you join?” I was in the Seabees, the Navy, construction. �Cornelius, Philip Interviewer: “Okay now when you enlisted did you get to pick that or did they just send you there?” Well I was wearing, just like you I wore glasses and all of the sudden I was restricted which was lucky because at that time the Seabees were just being formed, and I could wear glasses because we were truck drivers and construction and all that stuff. So they weren’t- and it was the or the Army and this was right after the bulge and all that stuff. Interviewer: “Well the Bulge comes 1944, so when you first enlisted that wasn’t the issue.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now go back to the time when you enlisted, where did you report to first, or where did they send you for training?” I’m trying to think. Interviewer: “Did you go to Great Lakes?” I’m foggy on my memory. Interviewer: “Alright, did you go to Great Lakes?” (5:31) No. Well I was in Great Lakes for a little time but that was when I was getting into the construction business in the Seabees so it was different. It was Navy but I had different witnesses like when I saw the bomber at the Empire State building. Interviewer: “Alright well we’re trying to talk about sort of the training that you got when you first went in. So did you go to Great Lakes for processing or did you do boot camp there?” �Cornelius, Philip Bootcamp, we were trained by the marines. Interviewer: “Alright and so what did that boot camp training consist of?” Everything, that was so long ago, it was about six weeks and I became a heavy equipment operator and I also did the work of a grader, but mostly I was a truck driver. Interviewer: “Okay, now did they give you specialized training for that, do they teach you how to drive the big equipment?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “And where did you do that training?” Great Lakes. Interviewer: “That was still Great Lakes? Okay now was the part of the boot camp or was that after the boot camp?” (7:28) After the boot camp. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you were being trained by the marines did you get a lot of discipline?” Oh my yes. Interviewer: “Did they treat you like you were marine recruits?” Yeah, well we trained with them you know basically, cause we were the truck drivers and all that stuff for the marines. �Cornelius, Philip Interviewer: “Okay, yeah. Alright so you would serve alongside them so you would train alongside them.” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and then, now how- Was it hard for you to adjust to life in the military?” No, I like it. Interviewer: “Okay, because marine training has the reputation of being kind of unpleasant.” It was, but I didn’t mind it. They were a little kinder to us because we were the support for all their operations. Interviewer: “Okay, so they might need you later.” (8:38) Yep. Interviewer: “Okay, alright do you have an idea of how long you did the Seabee training?” Oh gosh, it seemed like years but it was just, I would say it was three months. Interviewer: “Alright, so you finish your training then it’s probably going to be late 1943 at that point?” Yeah. Interviewer: “And once you complete the training where did they send you?” �Cornelius, Philip Well California to start with, we went out to the Hawaiian Islands, and from there we went- I went to Attu in the Aleutians where I spent most of my time. Interviewer: “Okay now can you describe what Attu was like to live on?” It was rugged, it was good though, you gotta remember that we unloaded all the ships and we confiscated quite a lot of stuff and we managed to counter- In the wintertime we used the snow to hide the confiscated stuff and we took care of ourselves first and we- then we took care of the marines. Interviewer: “Okay now what kind of construction work were you doing there?” Everything, I was basically a truck driver, big trucks. Interviewer: “But were they building bases or air fields?” (10:41) Oh yeah. Basically I was in construction and I served in Africa and I served in the far far away east, and the Aleutian Islands. So I was in quite a bit, they moved us around. I was a heavy equipment operator so I had- I could pretty well pick what I wanted, so that’s what I did. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you moved around did your whole unit go or did you go by yourself or with a small group?” Oh gosh that I don’t even remember. I was basically in a group. Interviewer: “Now do you think it was a group of a few dozen men, or several hundred?” Oh that’s- That was so long ago, that was ‘43, ‘44, ‘45. Interviewer: “Okay now when you were on- I mean how much snow did you get on the �Cornelius, Philip Aleutians?” Oh man it never stopped, it would come and it’d go because we were right on the divide between the Pacific ocean and the Arctic ocean, we were on a line. We figured in the year and a half or two years we saw the sun 30 days, and so all the storms formed right off Attu and because that’s where the warm water hits the cold water. Interviewer: “Now did the warm water keep it from getting really cold? I mean how cold would it get?” No, well it was cold it wasn’t- We were in the arctic, on one side of us we had the Arctic Ocean, and on the other was the Pacific. So all the storms, we figured we had in the two years we were there we had 30 days of sun setting. Interviewer: “Right, do you know- I mean how cold did it get? Did it get below zero?” Oh no too much, that’s why we had so much snow. Interviewer: “Alright, now who else was based on Attu with you? And were there air units or marines?” (14:02) Oh everything, it was- Attu was a major fly away, we had Army bombers, Navy bombers, we hadInterviewer: “Did you have seaplanes there?” Yeah we had everything, and I’ll never forget them. We had one day when the North Pacific fleet was in our harbor, with 10 or 12 destroyers and three cruisers, and it was a fleet, and the Japs came over with a bunch of airplanes and they had such a heavy attack from all those ships and stuff they dropped all their bombs in the ocean. One bomb got on the island and one officer got a purple heart cause he got a piece of shrapnel on his heel, that was a big story. �Cornelius, Philip Interviewer: “Okay so was that the only time the enemy showed up while you were there?” Yeah, well they tried to but you know, we were the farthest island out, they had to come at us first but usually they didn’t make it. Interviewer: “Alright, so did you have fighter planes based there?” Oh yeah, we had Army and Navy. Interviewer: “Now you said you were there for quite some time, were you there…do you remember where you were when the Japanese surrendered? Had you moved on by then?” Yeah, I think I was in the San Francisco area at that time. Interviewer: “Alright now you mentioned that you did go to Japan?” Yeah. Interviewer: “So when did you do that?” (16:35) Toward the end. Interviewer: “And when you went to Japan what were you doing there?” I was in- I was a Seabee. Interviewer: “Okay, now were you building bases for the Americans?” Yeah. �Cornelius, Philip Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you were in Japan, did you see much of the Japanese people themselves?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and were they civilians-” Yeah Interviewer: “Or military? Okay. I had a- I was in charge of, for a while we had a big laundry and I had German prisoners, prisoners of war working for me, and they were great. Interviewer: “Now where was that?” (17:28) In California, they were captured in Africa. They were the prime Germans when they took Africa, and they were all- the ones I had, they were all college graduates and very smart and didn’t want to go back to Germany, and they had to go back to Germany because that’s the way it works. They liked their space and they worked in the laundries and all that kind of stuff, and they like the American girls, they were interesting guys. Interviewer: “Now had they been officers?” Oh everything, but they were all graduates, colleges and everything else. I had everything under me and they were really just great guys, and they weren’t looking forward to going back to Germany. Interviewer: “Okay and then while you were in Japan did you have any Japanese who worked for you there?” �Cornelius, Philip Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and what were they doing?” They were just workers. Interviewer: “Right but were they working with you in the construction or?” Well I had laundry and I was in charge of prisoners of war, and so I had a pretty good crew. They were all college graduates. Interviewer: “Right, well those were the Germans though.” Yeah. Interviewer: “But I was asking about when you were in Japan. So when you were in Japan did you see much of the destruction from the bombing or was the area you were-” (19:37) Oh yeah but it’s- We were pretty well stuck in the bases, cause we pretty well chewed the area up itself during the war Interviewer: “Okay, so you were in- Do you remember what base you were at in Japan?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, alright were you close to Tokyo?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you go into Tokyo?” �Cornelius, Philip Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you see there?” Destruction, a lot of it, we flattened it. Interviewer: “Now some parts of Tokyo hadn’t been hit, and there’s a business district and the Imperial Palace, I mean did you see any of those things?” I don’t remember. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you were in Japan were there any discipline problems with your men?” No. Interviewer: “Okay so they weren’t going off and finding women or getting drunk and things like that?” (20:45) Oh a little. Interviewer: “Not to the point where it was making too much trouble.” No. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now you mentioned you stopped in some other places, did you just stop over? Like you mentioned Okinawa.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Did you do construction there?” �Cornelius, Philip Yeah, I’d forgotten about while I was a truck driver, so I got to the islands but you know that’s so long ago and I was a kid so, you know I was about 20, 21. So it was an adventure. Interviewer: “Okay, and you also got to the Philippines.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and were you around Manila or someplace else?” I can’t remember. Interviewer: “Okay, do you remember much about what the places look like or what you saw there?” (21:55) Yeah, it was pretty well beat up, we took a pretty good pounding there when we were fighting there, but you know that’s so far back, my memory isn’t as good as it used to be either. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you also said that you went to Africa?” Yes. Interviewer: “And was that North Africa like Morocco or Algeria, or somewhere else?” We came over, it was near the Egyptian line, and I was a truck driver so I got around a lot. Interviewer: “Okay but in Egypt or someplace else?” Yeah, various places. Interviewer: “Okay and when you were there I mean did you- If you went to Egypt did you �Cornelius, Philip like, go and see the pyramids or anything like that?” Oh yes. Interviewer: “So you were there…alright and did you get to the Suze canal?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re really just back and forth moving all kinds of things all over the place.” Yeah, well I was a truck driver. Interviewer: “Right, now were these almost cargo trucks?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay but not- as opposed to dump trucks or something else. Okay, alright and…let’s see, okay. So how long do you think you stayed in the Navy after the war ended? Because it sounds like you got to a lot of places after the Aleutians. So did you go from the Aleutians back to California and then other places?” (24:10) Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah okay, so you think maybe you were in until early 1946?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now do you remember the point system? Their determining when you got to go home?” �Cornelius, Philip No, it was important but we had quite a few Michigan guys and one of my best friends was a Bill DeVries, was a middle weight champion in golden gloves, and so he was a good friend of mine, so we got a little booze when he went to- He fought for the Navy, and bases and he was the champ of- He was a lightweight and he got showered with booze and he didn’t drink. So we had a little party, and I remember we were drinking it all straight, and we’re all sitting in the snow in our underwear outside of the barracks. We were stoned oh boy it was bad, but it wasn’t that badYes it was, yeah it really was. We had a few casualties that didn’t even make it out of the snow, we had to take them in the Quonset hut that we were in, you know we were at an early age and we got- Everybody got a case of whiskey, a mixture, and we had enough for everybody in the barracks, some of them didn’t drink at all so that doubled up on the other people, and we really got stoned. It was bad, awful. Interviewer: “So there wasn’t always that much to do in the Aleutians then?” There wasn’t. Interviewer: “When you had extended periods, when you were just stuck in the barracks because the weather was too bad?” (27:16) Oh yeah. Well we were truck drivers and I had a snow plow and so that was my busy time, we had to keep the roads open and we got a lot of snow, and we got a lot of rain. It’s a very wet area and the other thing is it’s the land of midnight sun you know. So we had only a very, very short period of darkness. Interviewer: “Oh in the summer?” Yeah. Interviewer: “But then in the winter you don’t have much light at all?” No that’s right, yes it was dark all the time. It was interesting, but what the hell when you’re only �Cornelius, Philip 18 and 20 this kind of stuff you can live with it. Interviewer: “Alright, now are there other things that happened when you were in the service that kind of stands out in your memory.” Yeah, we went through an earthquake and it was a pretty severe earthquake, in the valley area outside of San Francisco, and that was a memorable thing. All of a sudden the lights were all jumping all over the place and shaking. We’d never been in an earthquake before but it’s an experience, and actually it actually made it move, a major highway nearby over about four or five feet, and it was something to watch the lights blink, dancing all over the place and there’s no place you could go cause everything was going. So it’s a pretty great experience. Interviewer: “Yup. Now when you finished your time in the service, did they make an effort to encourage you to reenlist, or were they just sending everybody home?” Yeah, basically they’re sending, they had plenty of people who wanted to stay in so. Interviewer: “Okay, so you go home, now when you got home what did you do?” (30:19) I went to school. Interviewer: “You went to college?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and where did you go to college?” Michigan. Interviewer: “Alright, and what were you studying there?” �Cornelius, Philip Business. Interviewer: “Okay, and did that go well?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and then once you graduated from there then what did you do?” I didn’t graduate because at that time, I’m trying to remember that. Oh, my father had a crooked partner whose family was very wealthy in Cadillacs and we didn’t- My dad didn’t realize he was a gambler, bad, and all of the sudden their business went under, and he didn’t have any control over it. So that’s when I was in college so I didn’t get involved that much, and I was out on gi-giyou know the cheapestInterviewer: “G.I bill?” (31:42) The bill, and so I was set for it, but that was a trying time and my grandfather owned the Wolverine Brass Company in Grand Rapids, and they were well set but my father’s brother Harold he became an alcoholic, couldn’t take the stress, and we had a lot of family problems around that time, but we survived. Interviewer: “So did you kind of leave school and come help out or?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and then did you work for your grandfather or someone else?” Yeah, I did. Interviewer: “Alright and then did you come back and live in east Grand Rapids or did you-” �Cornelius, Philip Yeah, I went to Michigan and I couldn’t- I didn’t graduate because all of the sudden this thing took off and I had to get to work, help out, but I completed my, you know, time later because I didn’t need much more to do, but I enjoyed my time in Michigan. I was in a fraternity there and I was a Greek, at Michigan we had a- We had our own building downtown and Ann Arbor that was owned by the fraternity and we used to march down the street, robes and stuff on. You know when you’re a veteran and you’ve been in service long enough that kind of an old hat but it was kind of fun. Interviewer: “Alright now how do you think your time in the service affected you or what did you learn from it?” Nah. Interviewer: “You were basically just the same guy the whole time?” (34:50) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, do you think you learned anything from that that helped you later?” No, I don’t think so. You get a certain amount of discipline and you get some adventures like when I hit- That bomber hit the Empire State building. Interviewer: “Okay yeah talk about that, I mean why were you in New York?” Just a weekend pass. Interviewer: “Okay and were you stationed-” There was a hotel there that the government bought, and then you can stay there for three nights, and usually they had three or four guys in the same room. Some on the floor, some on the bed, �Cornelius, Philip but we had room service and food and all that stuff that they had treated us, it was a great great place to be. Interviewer: “Now were you stationed in that area someplace?” Well I was- Yeah we were right on the base, forget exactly where it was. Interviewer: “Was it in New York harbor somewhere?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah, alright, now how did you- Did you see the plane hit or just hear it?” (36:28) Yeah. Interviewer: “Can you describe what happened?” I heard it and we were near the window and I’d been on an airbase and I said “You know that plane is flying too low.” So we ran to the window and we saw it hit the Empire State building. It was a twin engine B25 and of course they were all killed but usually had a crew of seven. Interviewer: “Now did you ever learn why that happened? Was the pilot killing himself or anything?” No. Interviewer: “Alright how much damage did it do to the building?” You know I don’t even remember. It was, well it knocked some stones, some of the brick away, but other than that it didn’t damage anything it happened to hit an area that didn’t have any �Cornelius, Philip construction, it was a part of the building that… Interviewer: “So it was- We think of planes hitting skyscrapers, we now think of 9/11 but that was much bigger and much worse. Alright so we were talking about saying, you know “Do you think your time in the service affected you” when you were saying not very much but you did get to see some interesting things.” Oh my yes. Interviewer: “And go some places you wouldn’t go otherwise.” Yes, right. Interviewer: “Alright, alright anything else you can recall that you want to put on the record before we close out the interview?” (38:25) Oh I don’t- It was so far back, I was a kid then I mean I was in my young 20’s. Interviewer: “Yeah it was a lot, seventy years ago that’s a long time ago.” Yes it is. Interviewer: “Alright well thank you very much for talking to me this morning.” Oh that’s- I enjoyed it. �Cornelius, Philip � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CorneliusP2110V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cornelius, Philip Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03 Title A name given to the resource Cornelius, Philip (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Philip Cornelius was born on June 1, 1925, in East Grand Rapids, Michigan. In June 1943, after graduating high school, he enlisted in the Navy. Due to having glasses, he was placed in the Construction Battalions, better known as the Seabees. He received his training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois, then went to Attu in the Aleutian Islands off the coast of Alaska. While at Attu he helped build airfields and bases, and Japanese aircraft routinely attempted, and failed, to break through the defenses on Attu. From Attu, he went to California and oversaw German prisoners-of-war from the Afrika Korps, and also did construction work in Egypt. Sometime between his places of service he was in New York City and witnessed the accidental crashing of a B-25 bomber into the Empire State Building on July 28, 1945. He served on the Philippines and Okinawa doing construction work, and the same in Japan as part of the Army of Occupation. He was discharged in early 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/990cd75f4db7bc202ee221fc14d19f9e.mp4 6b1071f9eb854dac3bac32f0fb609ae1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc08a7267309c6272646845654435f1a.pdf 7a2f266c1e3344374c4958f1e89e3bee PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Mike Chiarelli Interview Length: (1:24:52) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're talking today with Mike Chiarelli of Lavon, Texas and the interviewer is James Smither of Grand Valley State University. Okay Mike can you start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with where and when were you born? Okay I was born in Brooklyn, New York, 1949 and then my parents when I was about eleven or twelve they moved out to Long Island for the suburbs to raise their children, at a- at a better place and then I stayed on Long Island, I worked, I went to barber college, I got my draft notice, I sent in I was still in school, they let me finish, after I got out and went to work I got the draft notice again. (1:09) Interviewer: Okay now to back up a little bit, what- what did your family do for a living when you were growing up? Oh, okay well both my parents were born in Palermo, Sicily and they came over and my mom, she had enough education to at least take a driver's test and get her license. And my dad was a longshoreman, and I didn't know till a little bit older that he was pretty much illiterate, he could just sign his name, but we didn't know that. My wife, I mean my mom, was a seams- seamstress where she would let's say sew on the sleeves all day long and she got paid according to piece work, this is back in Brooklyn. And every now and then there wasn't work with my mom and my dad so they put us on welfare, but it wasn't for long, it could have been a week, a few days, ten days. And I remember standing in lines and being embarrassed that my friends see me, that were, but it was there just to help out and when it was over, they went back to work. �Interviewer: Yeah. (2:10) So that was- that- that was good. So, really education wise I think my mom made it to the sixth grade, I don't think my dad made it to even the fifth grade. So, other than that we moved out to Long Island, and he used to commute back and forth from the Long Island Railroad. Interviewer: Now was he with a union, I mean did he get decent pay? Yeah, he was and the sad part of it, I was, he- he was killed when I was fifteen. He was, the Long Island Railroad back and forth, he was mugged at the train station. Interviewer: Wow. And there was those cops there nearby, the transit police, they recall four guys running from a situation and the cops said that they threw my dad on the tracks but the train that he crawled underneath and they think he died then when he was underneath so he wasn't mauled or anything like that. (3:05) Interviewer: But still, it’s… Yeah, yeah, I was only fifteen and it was really sad not to have your dad, I was always jealous of people that were older than me and still had their dad. I just, I wished I had my dad when I was drafted, I wish I had my dad when I came home but it’s okay. Interviewer: Yeah, and how many other kids were there? I have three brothers and one sister, I was in the middle, two above, two below. The girl came at the end number, five. Interviewer: Alright and then your older brothers, had they gone into the service or got? My- my older brother Sal he went to Germany and Korea but during pit- peacetime. �Interviewer: Right. And then the one right under him, he never went in or whatever because he was married with kids at the time. Interviewer: Okay. So, he was I forgot what they called that that you don’t… Interviewer: Now did you finish high school yourself? Oh yes, I did- I did finish high school and I continued on to get a business associate degree, a two-year degree. Interviewer: Okay and so now where does barber college fit into that? (4:09) Okay, that was of course I finished before I went into service. Interviewer: Right. I finished bar… well I came back afterwards, and I got a job barbering and I was with it ever since 1971 on I didn't stop, I- I've owned a salon here and there, small business, two or three chairs, more headaches than anything else and I just found it better that I just found my niche where I would just go rent a room and that's all I had to worry about was pay rent for the room. Interviewer: Right. And everything else was there. Interviewer: Okay so that comes a little later, okay now you did the business degree after you got back from Vietnam? Yes. Interviewer: Okay, okay so you just go to barber college after high school, you finish barber college and then Uncle Sam takes you. �Takes me. Interviewer: So, so when do you start basic training then? Okay I was, it was in New Jersey where we were… (5:04) Interviewer: Fort Dix? Yeah, Fort Dix where we were, what’s the word, indoctrinated. Interviewer: Inducted yeah. Inducted and from there they put us on a plane I remember it left from Newark, Fort Jackson, South Carolina. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, and so we were there, and basic training started, and it was really intimidation at the time, you know forty years ago they just got right in your face and just scared the heck out of you and just would tell you things like at night if you're not awake Charlie is gonna come and cut your throat. And they just- just harassed us and made us hard I guess and any little thing you know, “drop give me ten, drop give me twenty, you know run, run, jump, why'd you come down, I didn't ask you to come down, get back up there,” you know. Peel- peeled potatoes in the mess room for hours and hours. Interviewer: Did your older brother tell you anything about what to expect? No, no, he- he never said a word, he never said a word and we really never talked, and I don't remember why, I think he might have been living in California I think maybe that's why. (6:08) Interviewer: Okay now what time of year was it that you went down to South Carolina? At the spring of ‘69? �It probably was the spring yeah, May/ June maybe. Interviewer: Yeah, okay so in ’69, now at the time you went in, how much did you know about the Vietnam War and all of that? Very little because I remember in junior high, even in high school I remember saying to myself, “oh I’m sure it'll be over by the time I graduate, I don't have to worry about that,” but no, no it wasn't. And I remember at the induction area over there there were guys that were dressed up like women, guys that were acting like they were crazy, you know guys that were taking off their clothes, just whatever and walking around, they were just doing anything and everything not to get… Interviewer: Right. Inducted, they were just doing it and I don't know. Interviewer: Were you not prepared for that? (7:00) No I wasn't, I really wasn't it was- it was just kind of funny in a way and- and then afterwards they had us up in a platoon formation, you know so many rows and then they just randomly, they went Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Army, Air Force, Navy, each row, I happened to be in the row that was Army so I- I had said to myself I remember because I don't really like the water, I don't really know how to swim that good and I don't really like getting on airplanes I figured not the Air Force, not the Navy, so the Army was good. So, I was happy with that, but they harassed the heck out of you. Interviewer: Yeah. �And they took everybody, even if you were 300 pounds plus they took you and you were slim trim when it was all over. And after the eight weeks, it was eight weeks I believe of basic they sent us to AIT which I believe stand for Advanced… Interviewer: Advanced Individual Training. Individual Training, yeah. Interviewer: Okay with the- the basic training there at- at Fort Jackson you said they were, where there people who just couldn't do it, or did they basically keep everybody? (8:02) You mean couldn't go through the… Interviewer: Yeah. The basic training? Interviewer: Yeah. Well, there might have been a couple or three that we didn't see, they- they were gone, they weren't there, but then also maybe they were gone and maybe one came back. So, I guess some of them would just they couldn't make it I guess they just mentally couldn't make it. Interviewer: Well, I'm asking because in other times you might wash out a lot of people who really aren't fit, but if they really need the people. Yeah, they take everybody. Interviewer: They take everybody. They still took people that were very overweight, but these days forget about it, you're three pounds overweight they're gonna have you lose that before you sign up. Interviewer: Right, okay now what kind of shape were you in when you went? Oh I was really pretty good I was kind of really skinny, I was five foot six, 118 pounds, twenty- �four-inch waist, so I was- I was okay I mean I never really exercised I guess it was just my makeup, I was just thin, skinny. Interviewer: And were you able to handle the physical training okay? (9:02) Oh yeah, I was fine, I did it you know there was that fear, that intimidation that you did things that you didn't think you could, and you did them anyway so. Interviewer: Alright and then how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to the discipline part? Well, you know really under my breath when we were in formation and the drill sergeant would walk up and down, I would try to keep a smirk off my face because I'd be telling myself that this is not, they're just doing this to us. That I shouldn't get to them and a couple of times the drill sergeant would say something to me about, “what- what's going on with you, what are you doing?” “Nothing,” I- I don't know, “yes sir, no sir, yes sergeant, drill sergeant.” Interviewer: Yeah. “Okay well you just drop give me a number ten, twenty, I don't know just do it and get up again.” I guess he caught the expression in my face because I just tried to tell myself this isn't real, they're not gonna hurt us. Interviewer: Now did the atmosphere change as you got to the end of the training or were they the same to you the whole time? (10:07) No, same the whole time. Interviewer: Alright. The whole time. �Interviewer: Okay now when you, so you finish the- the eight weeks of basic now you go down to AIT and where do you do that? It was Fort Jackson, South Carolina. Interviewer: Okay. Also, the AIT and I did the, well they trained me for infantry I was- I was a grunt. The M16, they put me in mortars also, all I call them war games in a sense because it wasn't real, but they were preparing us, they were war games, we had to do this or we had to do that, we had to fire a certain amount hit the targets, just different things. Introduced us to different things like a 60caliber machine gun, a 50-caliber anti-aircraft weapon, they even brought in a- a- an attack helicopter the, I can't think of the name of what- what it was then, they were, I think they're Apaches these day. (11:09) Interviewer: But were they Cobras? Cobras, they were Cobras and they were giving us a demonstration that it was so far off and it put a round ta ta ta ta ta like that and it even landed and we got to look and do whatever, so that was, little did I know that one day I'd be in the bush and there with the Cobras shh shh shh helping us, you know, without- without all of that air support artillery I don't know, there would be more than 58,000 names on the wall. Interviewer: Yeah. There really would be, it was- it was really a terrible war. It shouldn't have happened, it was terrible there wasn't a line to where you say you're not in enemy lines, you're here, you're safe here, so you don't have to pull any guard duty you could sleep all you want and everything— there was nothing like that. Nothing whatsoever I mean it. �(12:00) Interviewer: Alright. I’m jumping but after- after AIT was crazy, they sent me to Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland. Well anyway they had me shoot and qualify with a .45 for three weeks, we were out there, me and about six other guys from nine to five and you were there ‘til six or seven at night if you didn't qualify that day and we shot at silhouettes all day long. And I don't know after the first week or so I think we were there three weeks, I asked the Sergeant I said, “why did they send me here? What's going? Why did- are they doing this to me?” He goes, he said, “you must have scored something somewhere on the test and they just don't have an opening yet, so they're just kind of moving you around.” Interviewer: Alright I want to back up a little bit back into the AIT part of things, so they're having you do sort of field exercises where you’re kind of going out in the woods or whatever and pretending it's Vietnam? Yes. Interviewer: Okay did you have instructors who had been to Vietnam? (13:04) I would say yes, yes most definitely I think they all were, in fact at the very end of the training it was something we had to go on a course and we had a compass with us, two or three guys together, and then they had us low crawling, really you got to stay down like that and crawl with the sixteen like this, and because right up above you was wire, barbed wire you didn't want to lift up and these rounds would be going and they would tell us that you don't lift up your head, they're real, the rounds are real so don't. And I don't know if they were or they weren't, but of course no one lifted up their head you know, it was, I don't know what was more frightening than �that, to see all these things shh shh shh and machine gun fire ta ta ta ta ta, you know so it was like we called it low crawl like this, flat low crawl and of course that really came into play when I was in the jungle a number of times, it taught me how to stay real low and do a little bit of this that we could because certain areas were open a little bit, otherwise it was triple canopy jungle, it was unbelievable. (14:13) Interviewer: So at least some part of what you got in training wound up being useful later? I believe so yes, most definitely and even to be able to shoot my M16 at, to be decent at it and to feel comfortable with it. You know they taught us in training how to take it apart and put it back together in a matter of, you know I don't know under a minute you could probably do it maybe under 30 seconds and all of that came into play when we had that down time. Really all of us, we cleaned our weapons, took it apart and cleaned it. I- you know they said the M16 was inferior, it was inferior to the AK-47, it really was but we never had a jam problem with it whatsoever, I think if everybody kept it clean it would have been okay but that AK-47 I believe it was from Russia, it was a superior weapon and ‘til today you know I could hear that crack it made ‘til today certain, they have me diagnosed with 70 percent PTSD. It's okay you can leave it on. Interviewer: Okay. (15:25) It just, just no one, no one really knows, you know you're scared, no one knows, you just don't know until you've been there. And it is very frightening and the whole time I was there I never saw one group or… Interviewer: Yeah. �NVA body even though we were being fired upon and they would tossing in RPGs and then when we approached the hill from the LZ, this was after the Cobras were entered, we still approached it with care and there was one guy he was dead and he was by no mean Asian whatsoever, the man was tall, broad shoulders, and he looked Russian. And we heard through the grape vine that the captain said, “it did help he had some papers on him,” but I don't know why they didn't take him away, maybe he was just too heavy to carry. Interviewer: Yeah. (16:30) And- and- and I was kind of one of the new guys, myself and this other guy and the Sarge, you know whatever said, “you Chiarelli? and you, grab ‘em by the ankles and you grab ‘em by your shoulders.” And I said, “we're gonna need three people, this guy is huge,” and they just you know toss ‘em in the foxhole and it just seemed so sad, it was a body, it was a human being. Interviewer: Right. And I just- I just felt so hurt by it and I thought to myself, why are we even here? I just don't understand it all this bloodshed. I- I just didn't understand it. Interviewer: I mean some part of it there is you- you kept some part of who you were in your own humanity and you're still using it at that point, which makes it harder to be a soldier. Let's go back and kind of follow you sort of in sequence. Alright so- so… Interservice: So, you’ve done, you've kind of… .45 where I was… Interviewer: Yeah, you got to .45 in Aberdeen. (17:26) �So, after that three weeks then they sent me to Fort Knox, Kentucky. I thought what the heck are these guys doing? So, I go there, and everybody was a Vietnam returning vet and I thought to myself, oh my god they're going to make it so hard for me, but they were the nicest guys- guys ever. And I even, because you got a day off if you volunteered to give blood, they said it was for the Vietnam veterans, you would get the day off, and I did do that one day. And like I said they were very nice to me, we played war games with tanks and APC’s, APC’s: Army personnel carrier. Interviewer: Yeah. And in the APC’s sometimes there was a platform where they had the mortar tube, okay and tanks and I drove tanks and it was fun. And it was even got the snow one day and doing this and we were skidding, and but it was fun, all the guys were really, really nice to me. And then I finally got my orders to go to Vietnam and I remember telling the guys and I didn't think much of it but when I got to Vietnam, I realized their expression on their face when I told them I was going to Vietnam. I- I said to myself, that's why they looked that way because they knew, they knew it was terrible. You get off the plane and honestly it smelled like feces, feces, it really did, a lot of guys said the same thing. So, I don't know from there they put me on a bus and the bus had bars on it, so this way they couldn't throw grenades and whatnot in there and it was terrible. Interviewer: Now do you know where you landed? Were you at Tan Son Nut or? Could it be…? Interviewer: Or Long Binh or Bien Hoa or one of those? Could it be Phu Bai? �Interviewer: You could have landed in Phu Bai, sure, I mean it's less, Phu Bai is probably, you norm- most people fly into Vietnam and they would land usually at Cam Ranh Bay or Tan Son Nhut or… I think it was Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: Yeah, and then they would have flown you from there up to Phu Bai. To Phu Bai, right. Interviewer: Yeah. (19:27) That's when I was on the C-130 for the first time. Interviewer: Okay, I want to, just to fill out the story a little bit, you do three weeks in Aberdeen proving grounds then you're at Fort Knox and now were you just… were you actually assigned to a regular unit or were you just waiting or training or? No, no I was assigned, I- I forgot the actual name I was in the motor pool I believe possibly and no I was assigned there to a unit there. Interviewer: Okay, so they weren't sending you, so you but you to this day you don't really know what they thought you were supposed to be doing? No. Interviewer: Okay. Even though I put down an application I wanted to be a cook. Interviewer: Yeah, okay and do you, how long were you at Fort Knox? Probably, oh probably three months, yeah three months and then I got my orders. Interviewer: But late enough into the year that there was snow on the ground one day when. �Yeah, there was. Interviewer: Yeah so, you’re out there. Now, so went to Vietnam now is it, now gonna be, you think so in early 1970 now that you actually go over there or is it still…? Yeah, it was because I was there ‘70- ‘71. Interviewer: Right okay so you go over there okay, and they've taken you and you go up to Phu Bai and that's the base for the 101st Airborne Division. (20:39) Just I don't know if everybody, if it was a mixture but that's where you were transit. Interviewer: Yeah. ‘Till they got orders to go wherever. Interviewer: Right. Because every morning in formation the Sergeant would call out. And I remember when I called out my name and he signed me to 101st Airborne, after formation broke, I went up to him and I said, “sergeant,” I says, “I never was trained to jump out of an airplane. I never did this,” I said, “I’m gonna be a POW, my legs are gonna break or something.” “Take it easy, soldier take ittake it's- it's airborne, air mobile you're fine, airborne air mobile.” Air mobile, being we made assaults with the Huey we were under Huey choppers that- that took us to different hilltops and some of them were hot LZ as we called them, hot landings zone and some of them weren't. But I believe most of the time we knew when they were hot, the captain kind of knew so and- and- and the choppers, the Hueys barely, they- they wouldn't hit ground, they just hover real low. And I remember the door gunner would tap me on the head you know, go, go and there was another scary situation when it was a hot LZ because you could see bullets around hitting the dirt that you're gonna jump into and you're going, oh my god you're dead, you know. But then there was a �situation with the same thing there was some clearing, I jumped, and I stayed low, and I low crawled right up to behind a big tree and so did the other guys do the same thing, they all did that. And we were putting down fire with the M-16, but you really weren't sure if you were really hitting anything or anybody because it was a thick jungle and it was like it's like pray, I even said to myself, “what- what am I shooting at?” I says, “I really don't want to kill anybody anyway,” that's kind of how I felt. And it was triple canopy jungle, you- you couldn't until the- the Cobras came in and they did their thing back and forth you know shh shh shh shh you know do do do, and hopefully by then you say it was pretty clear and then they gave orders to advance up to the hill, the hilltop and that's what we did with caution and we got up there and it was fine, it was safe at that point. It was safe, we were- we were up there, oh yeah that's right on that Hilltop 805 when we first got off and laying down fire to 60- to 60 gunner machine gunner and he had an assistant with him always and all the other grunts we would carry two or three bandanas so we could pass it down the line. I don't know how but they hit him, he was wounded the 60 gunner because he was laying down fire so I don't know how the heck he got shot but he got CAed right away and then the assistant gunner took up and someone right next to him helped the assistant gunner. I don't know how he got hit unless it was shrapnel from an RPG or something I don't know. But they took him away and he was- he was okay, we knew he was okay. So, anyway we're at 805 and we were there at least three nights, it might have been four nights but every night we got hit, every night. And then at night they'd call in artillery also and they're calling, we call it a Puff, Puff the Magic Dragon because they had these, I think a 55-millimeter rounds that run this round thing that would just keep rotating. (24:14) Interviewer: A mini gun was what we called it. �Yeah, and it looked like a dragon with fire, and they would do that just about every night, everyevery night. But every night we also had it, we called it LP from that perimeter, outside the perimeter maybe 25 yards you would go out you and two or three other guys because you would you know share the guard duty to stay awake and we were out there with a radio and you wouldyou would hit the button as if to talk and that would mean you would squelch it so I don't remember what it was, one for no movement, two for movement you know if we heard anything to make them aware of it so I remember and- and the biggest thing was they said, “don't take your weapon with you,” and I remember this guy my- my- my dearest friend was killed. He- he liked me, and he was there before me and he said, “it's okay Chiarelli, don't, it's fine, don't take your weapon, you're okay,” he says, “because you're going to be running.” He says, “and that with the weapon is only going to hinder you. So, we're out there on LP and eventually that's the most scariest thing, we were starting to hear movement until that movement went into RPG’s shooting and that's when we all got up and we ran and we're running towards the perimeter. Then we're yelling and stuff like Yankee Stadium, Empire State Building, Statue of Liberty just to let them know it was us breaking for the perimeter and not the NVA. Interviewer: Okay. That- that I don't know what's more scarier than that to be on LP listening post. (26:02) Interviewer: So yeah okay, let's, to kind of go back and help the outside people kind of follow your story, so you get out to Vietnam, and I think you thought it was probably, so it's early 1970 but it's not too early because you joined- you joined what- what specific unit did you join within the 101st, which company? I was with 2nd, 506 B Company. �Interviewer: Okay the 2nd battalion, 506th. Infantry B Company, second platoon. Interviewer: Now do you remember, now because you and I, let's see I think you told me this off camera but how did you, how did they get you out to your unit? When you first, you come into Phu Bai and then your… Oh, oh with a Huey chopper. Interviewer: Okay. A Huey chopper yeah, it- it come in and that's when RPG’s came by and the 60 gunners opened up and I was the only one on the thing and I'm going “I want my mom.” Interviewer: Yeah. And so, they brought us to an LZ, a landing zone and I remember someone came right to the chopper and got me off he said, “you go over there,” there were like three other guys in the woods. And they were like, I don't know what they were but of course they were very, very nice and they said, “take off your rucksack,” because it wasn't done properly, I didn't do it or whatever you think they would have taught us to- to that but they didn't. But they fixed it up for me that made it more comfortable for me and the rucksack, yeah, the rucksack... I forgot what I was going to say. Interviewer: Well basically you're, so you- you actually got some help right away from the guys in the squad that you joined. Oh yeah, I did. (27:39) �Interviewer: Yeah so, they're looking at, because some- sometimes in some places they just didn't say much of anything to the new guy and sometimes they did, but so you had guys who had been there a little longer who were going to show you the ropes and what to do. They were very nice, yes, they were, they really were. Interviewer: Alright. They had empathy for you they really did. Interviewer: Okay and do you, let’s see do you remember like who the squad leader was, or your platoon leader was at that point? No but months into it, I don't know what happened to my squad leader I don't- I don't remember, but all of a sudden I was in charge and I was a spec four, but then this sergeant came in, he was, we called him Shake and Bakes, you know he was, he came in and he was assigned, he took over, we talked to him and I remember that first night in the foxhole, of course you take turns pulling guard duty to stay awake and that morning into late morning he came out there and he said, “you- you pushed the clock ahead to so this way you could go back to bed,” and I was meaning it was and I said, “no I didn't, I would never do anything like that. I don't know why you're saying that.” So I went right to my lieutenant- lieutenant hand and he knew who I was and he goes, “Chiarelli, don't worry about it wherever you want to go, which squad you want to go in.” So, I did it and I was there with that squad ‘till, until I left. And there was this guy, Roberto Flores and- and he really turned out to be really my- my best, my best of friends. And he's the one that helped me when- when about going out to the listening post, just, not that he didn't help everybody else, but you know he goes, “are you Spanish?” “I don't know,” I said, “I’m Italian American, but that's okay they take me for Jewish, Greek, whatever,” and my hair was black, �Middle Eastern really. And I thought he was, and he says, “no,” he says, “I’m Mexican.” I don't think I heard the term Hispanic ‘till we moved to Texas. (29:56) Interviewer: Yeah. But he was real nice with me and for the longest time he told all the guys, he said, you know if in- in- in few words or less, you know I don't want to curse, he said, “whoever blank, blank with Chiarelli, they're going to blank, blank with me.” So just don't mess and he was just, he was- he was really, really nice, he… it's okay. He was killed on Ripcord. Interviewer: Alright now you're joining your unit and this is probably kind of sometimes after the Ripcord base has actually been established so there's a base on a hilltop and the companies of your battalions would take turns patrolling around the hills in the jungle, around the base and you've been talking a little bit about some of what that was like, about when you were being on the Hill 805 at a certain point and there you actually stayed in the same place for several days which is dangerous because the enemy knows where you are. Exactly. (30:57) Interviewer: Alright now most of the time would you stay in a different place each night as you were patrolling? No, no not really, we was probably for like two or three nights really but Hill- Hill 805 was the worst. I believe we were there four nights and every night we got hit but then there was also Hill 1000, and they would get hit also. I can't remember the other one if it was 900 or what I don't remember. Interviewer: Well, there was one called 902 and that's where C Company got hurt bad. �Oh, that's it then. Interviewer: Early, early in the battle. Now when you're out in the field, kind of for an extended period, how long would you be out in the jungle before you go back to a base camp? It's terrible at- at least 60 days, at least. And you would hope to go back, and you could take a shower and you have a hot meal and what was I gonna say, yeah formation, what we wanted out in the field for supplies was extra socks, just even if they were dirty, they'd be dry for your feet because then we would hang the wet ones on our rucksack to dry. But they keep ordering them and ordering them and they never get them, they never send them out. And after maybe the second time I went back in the rear I had enough nerve to go up to the lieutenant and say, “you know what's with the socks?” “Well how many do you want?” I said, “well just one, because I have these.” So, he got me two pairs and I gave one pair to somebody else and just so you could keep your feet dry that's all you wanted, you didn't want wet socks all the time. And somebody said the supply sergeant was not found or heard of after a while because he was giving stuff to the enemy, he was giving it to them, selling it or doing what I don't know. And here our guys in the boonies needed was something so basic and we couldn't have it to make it a little bit better for us out there, just a little bit. I hated it, I mean every night you know we had to pull, stay awake for guard duty every night. You know, rained whatever you could go to sleep, you know in the rain or wake up in the rain or go to sleep wet and for some reason our fatigues would dry by the morning, I don't know why but they would dry at that material or the body heat, but it was something somebody says, “well don't you have a poncho?” I go, “no its war, a poncho would hinder you with the weapon and whatnot, no it was nothing.” You know you, some places there �wasn't even a foxhole at night we didn't even dig in, you just slept on, right on the ground, right on the ground. (33:36) Interviewer: Now would you not dig in because you couldn't dig in or just, they, just didn't get orders to? You know I don't remember, but I’m sure it was “don't dig in tonight,” and we didn't and for some reason or another those nights where we didn't dig in, we never got hit. Interviewer: I mean it may be that they, at least the commanders had at least some intelligence for kind of where the enemy might be or what was going on yeah. It's, yeah, it’s very possible. Interviewer: Or maybe you just got lucky, but I guess also there could be a lot of tree roots in the soil or just be rock. Yeah, Interviewer: Yeah, so who knows, anyway now when things were not too hot and there wasn't a lot of contact, what's a typical day like out in the jungle? Well of course you know you weren't battling every second, every minute of every day. There was down time you know, obviously and that was the time where we would just kind of do nothing, we knew it was kind of secure, we'd take off our boots and socks and make sure our feet were dry. Clean our weapons, there might be a- a package from home, a care package and we allwe all shared it whoever got it and I remember when I got, my mom sent me some, a can of mushrooms and at the time it must cost under a dollar I'm sure for a can but this- this forward observer lieutenant just got assigned to us and I got the care package and I opened it up and a can of mushrooms and he said something like, I think he said “oh I’ll give you fifteen dollars for �that.” I said, “no, no, no.” I said, “we just will share and then he I believe he went to twenty and I said, “no honestly we just all share, everybody has a plastic spoon and just pass it around and luckily for him a lot of the guys didn't like the mushrooms so he had a bigger portion but he wanted the whole can, but he got quite a bit of it and like I said whoever got a care package we all divided it up, we all shared it. There might have been a letter in there, photos were passed around, and anybody who you were with if they were just even from the same state as you, you felt the closeness to them you know, you felt the closeness. That would be it because most of the time we were hopping the boonies, we were just going, it felt like a forty-five-degree angle. And I remember one time we needed water and there was, we called it the blue line water running down and this captain had the medic handout water purification tablets and I didn't know any difference, you put it in, you put the water, but you know from that point on I think all of us had dysentery after we drank that because come to think of it who knows what was in that stream, I mean it was terrible. I mean after a while we didn't even bother asking for any- any boxer short underwear we didn't want it anymore it was just too much trouble, we didn't wear it anymore, it was just easy to do without it. And I remember that I mean when you get that feeling that you got to go at one time I was taken up to rear, we were on- on a squad going in and pretty much I was probably that far away from the next guy or maybe a little further it hit and I had to drop my pants and I thought to myself, oh my god please I hope I don't become a prisoner because I couldn't see them, I couldn't yell, so I did it as quick as I could and I ran. But I thought, oh my god am I going to be captured you know so that dysentery boy. Interviewer: How long did you have that? (37:29) It felt like all year on and off. �Interviewer: Okay, alright. A lot of the guys the same thing, you know just like the- the- the jungle- jungle rot or nail fungus from your feet being wet and even the jungle rot comes back every now and then. I don't know why after all these years you just start scratching somewhere and then it festers and you big whatever and it goes through its cycle and then it scabs and then it's done, but why that still comes back I don't know. Interviewer: So, I mean you didn't get malaria. No. Interviewer: But you got a lot of other things instead. Yeah, yeah, we did. Interviewer: Now what would you normally eat out on the field? Well, we had to the C-rations, and it ranged from ham and eggs, to beef with potatoes, to franks and beans, which everybody of course wanted the franks and beans, especially to new guys. You I mean to open up eggs in a can like that and you're oh my god, but you know after a while I guess, after a while everybody started eating everything, we just- we just ate everything and then occasionally we would have a Kit Carson scout come out with us and he was a- a- a South Vietnamese I guess, yeah and he would carry bags of rice and he wanted the meat and we wanted the rice so we exchanged and we would just make our own dishes with rice and throw the beef in there with a ham or whatever it is and make our own dishes, but it was- it was good I mean it tasted good after a while it tasted really good. Interviewer: Well, you needed the food. (39:07) You definitely needed the food. �Interviewer: Because you’re burning off a lot of calories while you’re out there. Yes, yes, we were, we were. Interviewer: Alright, okay now do you remember who your company commander was when you joined the company? Yeah, it was Captain Williams. Interviewer: Okay what sort of character was he? Well ‘till today he comes to the reunions, he isn't here this time because he had a hip replacement, and he was- he was very nice. I mean he was referred to as the old man, you know he was about 27/ 28 and we were 19/ 20/ 21. So, but he I guess really, he knew, I always said hehe brought us home, you know he- he made us safe. Besides everybody else under him you know they took his direction and a lot of times when we get to a- a site to dig in you know our first superiors whoever they are they could be a spec four or a PFC it was passed down Captain said, “do like zero silence as much as you can,” so you know try to make the littlest noise as possible even when you're digging to dig in a little bit more. And usually those with the times that we'd get hit believe it or not it was crazy and I thought to myself, they know we're here because we're not completely silent and I remember one guy that he was supposed to go out on LP that he was and he refused to and he refused an order and he didn't want to go, well everybody was scared so he didn't go and I don't know, he was a different culture but I didn't know why, but the next day he got a CAed out to, back to the rear. We never saw him after that, somebody said he probably would have gotten an Article 15, which was kind of like a, you might say a traffic ticket or something, they would take some of this pay but I could understand, we were all scared I mean everybody was scared it was just- it was just terrible. And- and on Ripcord where my friend he was killed July 21st, he used to volunteer to, for do these assignments throughout the- the Hill �and he always did too much, he always and I think only two people know this, but like I said he took care of me and he said, “no, no you don't go Chiarelli I’ll- I’ll- I’ll go this time.” I said but you do more than me, it's… “no, no, no it's okay you stay.” And that's the day he got killed and the lieutenant came down to let us know, and I was in my foxhole with a couple other guys. I wanted to run out to go see him and the lieutenant says, “get back in that hole, don't leave without your M16, get back in there.” But for some reason it was really quick, they already had him wrapped up and a chopper took him away and it just happened like that, sometimes a body could be there for days, but I guess it was just timing that that chopper was there, and he took him away. So, I- I didn't get to see him and I try up ‘till today to contact somebody, his wife, his uncle, his brother but- but nothing, I don't and it's really funny because I was from New York then and he was from Texas which I didn't even know he was from Brownsville. So, I looked up his information and it said Brownsville, Texas and then I said to myself, “well it's the holy spirit,” you know that we moved to Texas that I’m close to Brownsville. I says, I don't know maybe one of these days we might find somebody I- I don't know. Interviewer: Yeah, and it’s got to be tough because Flores is a fairly common name so… (42:53) It's like John Smith. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah, it's really kind of tough there but do you- do you feel like you know any sort of, that that should have been you? Yeah, I live- I live with guilt. Interviewer: Yeah. I really do. Interviewer: And that's a very, very direct case. �I live- I live with guilt and we know he went to Hawaii on his R&R to go meet his wife with his infant child that he didn't see. Interviewer: Yeah. And when he came back, he was so happy he showed his pictures and everything and it was either that day or the next day he was killed. I don't remember but it was July 21st, I knew it was July 21st because July 23rd we evacuated. Interviewer: Okay now in the campaign that you were part of, Ripcord campaign it's already going in April when you get there so there's a base on the hilltop and the companies take turns. Yeah. Interviewer: Doing base security and your company was doing security in the last couple of weeks of the battle. Yes. Interviewer: Now had you- had you been up there earlier? No. Interviewer: Have you been? Okay, so let's talk about that the time that you're spending and patrolling around on the different hills did you get a stand down? Did you go back to Camp Evans at some point before the… No. Interviewer: Later battle, not that you can remember? (44:07) Nothing because from Hill 805 after the three/ four nights the captain said, “I’m gonna hump over to Ripcord, it's a firebase, it'll give you guys a little bit of a rest.” �Interviewer: Right. “And we would be securing the perimeter of Ripcord.” And to us that was like almost going on vacation because it would be some place stationary that all we had to do was, you know take care of the guard duty at all times out, there was the concertina wire and- and we would at night you know any movement we would fling grenades, anything. And some of us were able to, they called it a starlight telescope where you saw images and you swear you saw images and you heard noise and you fling grenades and but the next morning nothing was there and in fact the day before or the two days before another sergeant was assigned to my squad, Dale Faulkner and he was in the hole, it was his first day and he was a shake and bake, and he goes, “well what do we do?” I said, “well they want us to get rid of as much of this as possible so we're just going to fling grenades just randomly out there.” And him and I were in the hole standing and right behind us was a bunker where you could fall in to sleep when it was your turn and I don't think anybody else was in there at the time but all of a sudden, he- he says, “Chiarelli, Chiarelli get out of the hole, get out of the hole.” So, you know instinctively I just put my hands like that, and I got out I went like this because I thought I was gonna hear an explosion and I did and then he goes, “Chiarelli, Chiarelli help me, help me.” He didn't jump out for some reason, this guy's over six feet and he tried to go in the hole, he had dropped a grenade, dropped a grenade right in the hole. So, it was so dark to probably try and do this was nothing, but he tried to go in and he got in up to his waist and the grenade went off and he had it all in here, all in here. And even back in ‘04 you know I put out the word if this guy comes in that I brought up to top I helped him and then he was looking for me and we finally met and the first thing he said to me was, “thank you for saving my life.” And I never thought I saved his life, all I ever thought was I helped him but we both said that at that particular time when he pulled me over and I had to help drag him out �because he was six feet and he had his arm over my shoulders and we’re going like this and we remember we both said I think at the same time, “we could both be killed,” and we both said, “yeah, I know.” So, I went all the way up top to headquarters or somebody was having, “yeah what the blank, blank are you doing?” I said, “he's hurt.” “Oh okay, okay go ahead, go, we got him.” I said, “okay,” and then on my way down to the hill and I don't know why I kicked myself that I didn't take my 16 with me as I’m on my way down I thought oh my god I’m dead- I’m dead and then they were, you know the perimeter foxhole but then up a little ways there were more foxholes more like a bunker that the lieutenant was in and would be a little space and their rifle would go in there and he saw this person out and I remember him yelling, “so do you get the blank- blank in that foxhole. What the blank- blank are you doing out of the hole? You're gonna get it tomorrow blah blah blah blah,” and that was Lieutenant Hand, but he didn't know no I don't think, I’m not sure who eventually found out that I helped Dale and you know what's going on with him today, he's- he's has, he's in hospice with brain cancer you know it's been eleven months now. They only give him four months, but you know and- and I met him every year anyway we, I always found him, and he found me and we just kind of hugged and talked a little bit. He was really a nice guy, but I would have never known it was him, he would have never known it was me but this reunion kind of brought us together. Interviewer: Right. (48:18) And that was nice, and he told me, he said that they really took care of him and that he wore a colostomy big for a little bit and he says back then they- they automatically gave him a thirty percent service connection disability. I didn't even know what that was to tell you the truth, but he was- he was okay, he was fine, and I guess maybe he was supposed to be saved or helped to �live his out because he married, I’m not sure if he has any children. But we all know him and most of the people know the story because they were all looking out for me, and they were all looking out for him to find one another. Interviewer: Right. (49:01) Yeah, and as it turned out one reunion, I was there I was sitting and there was a back of another chair and a guy sitting that way and I asked Bob Judd I said, “Bob any news on the guy that I helped?” He goes, “here, he's sitting right behind you.” Yeah, so that was something, I’m just soI’m just so and you know I never knew that I saved his life, I never looked at it that way but that's the first thing he said to me, the first thing, all I really did was help him. I- I just did my job, I believe anybody else would have done the same thing. Interviewer: Now a little bit of broader question, there's a lot of stereotypes and stuff about morality and this in Vietnam and that kind of thing. Now in your case within your- your platoon or your company that you served with is it your impression that most the guys just did their job? (49:54) Oh definitely, now I- I hate to bring up you know African Americans but back then and not all, but a good part of them they- they made complaints that they needed to be on profile, if you weren't profiled you can’t go out in the woods and they said that we were discriminating against them because they had put all the black people out in the boonies, and it wasn't so. I mean in- in our company with four platoons, each platoon, 30 each you know if there was one or two black guys it was a lot and the black guys that were out there, they were okay, they were good with us, we were good with them. It's the other ones because when we came in the rear for stand down, �they were in the chow line waiting, you know to eat a hot meal and what they did during the day was they- they did whatever, filled sandbags or did KP duty, they just, busy work they didn't want to deal with them anymore so they just- they just put them in the rear. And- and back then those black guys they used to, when they used to meet, they you know do this, this, the… (50:57) Interviewer: Yeah, the whole black power thing. Yeah. Interviewer: All the time. And you'd see them on the chow line doing that and you just shook your head, you shook your head. Interviewer: Yeah, and that seems to be stuff that came over from the States because by then they, at home they were convinced that you know they were sending all of the black guys out to do the fighting and stuff and so that's what they know when they take in with them. And- and so that was peculiar at the time but the guys who were in the field with you were… They were fine. Interviewer: They didn’t do anything else. They were fine, the one black guy, he was a sergeant, he was great, he was great, and I just always remember my friend Roberto, Roberto M. Flores, I just, I guess I’ll see ‘em up there. Interviewer: Yeah, alright so you had spent you know extended time, couple of months’ worth of time out in the field, out with your- with your company and now you get is early July when you go up to the hill? It was, I want to say July 4th. �(51:52) Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright so you guys, your company's turn now to do security for the top of Ripcord? Right. Interviewer: Alright and describe a little bit just what the base looked like in terms of in how- how things were laid out for you. Well the- the outer perimeter is what we did company big, we did the outer perimeter and in front of the perimeter maybe 30 feet there was barbed wire, concertina wire which I didn't know the term concertina wire until I went there and it was like all around the whole thing and then closer into the top they'd be also dug out bunkers that sandbags on them and you were well- well protected you're just able to stick out your whatever. And usually that would be for the officers, the lieutenant, the, we called the CP, command post would be always be in the inside, just like we were out in the boonies and we dug a perimeter, CP would be right in the middle and that was the captain, the RTO, whatever and they also stood watch for guard duty too, they had to, they had to stay awake. It was so frightening that Hill 805 with those RPGs coming in and small arms fire and guys screaming and yelling and “help me,” and “help me, please help me.” I remember two or three guys I was in the hole with because when I ran from the LP, I just jumped in the first hole and they go, “you're fine, you’re fine, Chiarelli you're okay, it's okay. Are you hit?” I said, “no, no I’m not.” They said alright, “just stay down just…” And I remember just sitting inin the underground like this and looking and things going over my head and… (53:49) �Interviewer: Yeah. And I really thought I was going to die but they were “Chiarelli, it's fine just stay there we got it.” And I don't even remember those guys names or anything. So, then there was the second perimeter closer to the top and then it was the TOC which was called Headquarters. Interviewer: Yeah. And Headquarters would be all the Officers or the Military whatever, the artillery was there and I always thought that artillery had it easy but- but no this artillery did not have it easy because they would get shelled a lot because that's where a lot of the artillery was shooting out into the boonies to help the guys and they wanted to get that artillery you know knock it out of commission and believe me that last day, and I go to the last day or I go to the- the night before the Lieutenant came down to the perimeter in the foxholes and he says, “we are going to evacuate at first light.” And there are these Navy ships out there that could shoot these big guns and we're just hoping they're going to be close but not hit the perimeter. So, when he said we were evacuating as soon as he left, I remember turning around to the guys I says, “we're running.” And we were, we were running because that that morning when we did evacuate you know it was like my- my foxhole was the next to go, I don't know why but the two guys I was with got out before me and they were going- they were going, “Chiarelli, Chiarelli hurry up, hurry up they're coming through the wire. Hurry up.” And I just said to myself I don't even want to turn around; I don't want to turn around. But it was you know it was pretty steep so they weren't you know, they weren't that close, but we made it to the top and there was somebody up there that- that way, wait to the chopper and you know sometimes the chopper will come in but then it take off again, you know because it was getting hit too much and then it was, you know, “go, you guys go.” And I just remember running and I remember dropping my M16 and for a �split second I thought to stop and pick it up and I just, I said no- I said no, I’m gonna pick it, no. And I remembered in training they said something like you know if you lose it, I remember 175 dollars. Why that’s stuck in my head I don't know, but no they gave me another one. Interviewer: Yeah. (56:17) You know it was no big deal but we- we evacuated. The choppers came in, they went back to Camp Evans and then they- they totally B-52’d the whole thing, they just flattened it all out, there was nothing. They said that later on people went back and there were some bunkers, three foot bunkers that were closer to the hill where you were able to stand up in them and there were American’s that were burnt, they used flamethrowers. And they said that these are the guys that for some reason had a fear that didn't want to come out and you know, and I always said to myself, whoever was their superior probably should have been aware of that and dragged them out or something. I’m not blaming it on them, but I would think that if this other guy you know is with you, you need to help them come on. (57:15) Interviewer: Of course there's no reports of any missing in action out of the companies, everybody was accounted for in one fashion or another so it may be that that's a story that got passed at some point, for I mean if you were just hearing it from other guys and weren't sure where they heard it from, it could be, it was like the you mentioned that when you're leaving they're telling you there's people coming up the hill and as far as we can tell there wasn't anybody coming up the hill yet. No not really. �Interviewer: At least not by the aerial observation, but in the middle of all this because when you're in your fighting position you can't see very much. No. Interviewer: Of the perimeter or anything else. It's dark. Interviewer: Yeah, it's dark and you know you don't really know what's out there, but even during the day you only would have a limited field of view. Now in your fighting position where you were now the Ripcord is a hill, now are you part way up the slope or you're right at the base of it or? (58:05) Pretty much just about on the bottom, pretty much, yeah. Interviewer: Okay and did you, and then you had there were other hills around and would the enemy try to fire? Did you ever take direct fire at you or was it mortar fire and rockets that came in? No, no I- I don't recall any direct fire no, mortars, rockets, I guess the RPGs were rockets. Interviewer: Well yeah rocket grenade, but there are the bigger rockets. Yeah, they- they are, well the bigger ones yeah those were the 110s I think. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, the Scud missiles or something. Interviewer: Well not- not -not that big but yeah but the bigger miss- big, bigger rockets. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: That get launched. Now when you first went on there, I think the officially the way they do the history of the battle, sort of the 1st of July is when you begin to get a �regular bombardment that slowly got worse, now on July 4th or so when you came in waswas there more… did you come in helicopters, or did you walk in? No we walked, we humped from 805 to Ripcord and we came up in it and we thought it was the greatest thing that ever happened to us, we really did and we were just assigned foxholes and we all thought oh this is so nice, this is great, but then we started hearing the rounds the round, that's why they wanted, that's why that that lieutenant yelled at me because I was out of the foxhole I was coming down. (59:24) Interviewer: Yeah. From Ripcord and- and my friend Roberto, Roberto he, they had us wear flak jackets, okay and the lieutenant would always tell him to make sure you, you button it and he never really wanted to button it and he had a round came in, a piece of shrapnel hit his heart that that was it. Which is, but I guess it- I guess it was meant to be, it really was. And then up top where headquarters was, they had hot meals, there was a- a cook up there. Interviewer: Yeah, there was a cook up there. Yeah, so they had hot, we never had them, well I take that back I think we did get them once in a while where somebody brought something down to us or one of us went out and brought food for the guys. I- I take that back we did have some of that, yeah, we did. But so it was a lot easier with our C-Rations we had you know more area, more whatever and we used to use C-4 and even though the cap they said, “you can't do that.” He let us use it, we used it to heat up our food. (1:00:30) Interviewer: Because this is the plastic explosive, and you can break off a little piece of it and light it. �Exactly, yeah, I think today is on TV, in Hollywood they use a C-4 a lot yeah. Interviewer: Well yeah, special effect explosions. Okay this tape is about out… So okay now we were talking about sort of the situation on the Ripcord firebase in- in July and particularly as we're getting close to the point where you were talking about evacuating and getting off, but the whole time you were there, the place was under bombardment now… Oh, every day. Interviewer: Now from your fighting positions did much land around you or did it normally land up on top? Well we had this saying when we were over there, if you could hear it, it's going over you and you don't hear it, it could be in the front or whatever and you might not be there, but I would say, no not necessarily on the tippy top. Well yes there was but it also was going throughout randomly and never, I remembered in front of my foxhole or to either side but behind us, but it was still scary to hear that, I mean I’m certain tones I- I’m jumpy and I jump. I mean I am diagnosed with PTSD and I just, it just doesn't go away. Interviewer: Yeah. (1:01:46) And the biggest thing is sleeping at night. I you know even though I sleep for seven/ eight/ nine hours, I wake up and I feel like I need to go to sleep, I never went to bed because my mind doesn't rest. I feel like I need to have a perimeter around my house with- with guards. It would make me sleep better it’s just it’s crazy. Interviewer: Well, you get conditioned to something. Yeah. �Interviewer: In that situation. And what I didn't say was after the evacuation and whatnot and- and I was healed, I don't know how many days it took to do that, then they sent me out to another firebase which I don't remember it might have been Katherine, and I thought to myself why are they doing this to me? I am just so scared. Why are they… “Chiarelli, Chiarelli we're going to put you in mortars. Remember back in the states we also trained you for mortars so this will be a little bit easier, it won't, you won't be hopping the be- boonies you'll be permanent you don't have to hop the boonies. And you could take a shower every now and then it might be an outdoor shower and you'll get an occasional hot meal.” So, I wasn't in the mortar pit, I was in a bunker that I could sleep, I could stand up, I was in, it was called FDC: fire direction center. Yeah, so they put me, I did have training and the guy on the- on the radio talking to the guy in the field that needed mortars, he would give me some sort of numbers and a thing that turned it around and I would give him the accordion then you do it, and he'd give it back out to the mortar pit, they would fire one. And then the guy out in the field called back, “no do twenty meters this way.” And then fire one, we did that three times and then after three times the guy on the field would say, “okay fire for effect.” And they dropped maybe half a dozen rounds, you know and of course they didn't necessarily end in same spot all the time, but and then of course if he needed more, we started it over again. But when those guys called in everything was dropped, you did it immediately they needed your help. Interviewer: Yep. (1:03:54) Yeah so I was in, it was 81 millimeters we had. It was really funny because the- the- the NVA had 82 millimeters, and from what people tell me our 81s could go in their 82s. �Interviewer: Right. And we had a 50-caliber machine gun, they had a 51 and they were able, where, how did all this happen, you know. Interviewer: That's very simple, it's an old trick the Soviets did. Russians. Interviewer: Even the Germans in World War II because that way they could use the German ammunition, the Germans couldn't use theirs because it was too big. Yeah. Interviewer: And that just stayed as- as a tradition. Okay so now when you were talking about getting off of Ripcord, you had told me off camera and you sort of referred to it in passing here, at some point on Ripcord you actually got- got wounded, you got burned on the face. Oh yeah. Interviewer: How did that happen? I- I did that was the day we evacuated, that morning for, two other guys with me or three I don't remember, but we had a supplies, mostly grenades. I don't know what else, could be a bunch of C-4 or whatever, but one of them poured the gasoline all over it and I had the trip flare. And they started going up and I started walking back out to toss it and that's when they were saying, “Chiarellli hurry up, hurry up, hurry up.” So, I do, there was this big explosion, this big puff, but I didn't think anything of it. I went up to the top we managed to, got on the chopper, went back to Evans, got off and that's when the guy said, “you, go into the medic now.” And I said, “why?” He says, “your face, left side is all burnt.” And I didn't know it but then I remember feeling a sting on my face when that poof went. I felt the sting and I guess that's when I got burnt, and of �course I don't know I said, “I don't care,” I don't even remember looking in the mirror, I don't even know what it looked like, but I told the doctor, “I don't care I just want to go home.” He said, “well we're not sure if it's going to heal.” I said, “okay.” And it healed and then they sent me to mortars which was like being on vacation almost, you know of course I had to still stay awake and pull guard duty in the- in the- in the bunker because I had to listen for the guys out in the field if they needed us. Interviewer: Right. (1:06:18) You know, so somebody had to stay awake, so we took our turns there. Interviewer: Now were you still in the mortar platoon for your original battalion? So, were you still with 2/506 or did they switch you to something else? No I believe it was the same. Interviewer: Yeah, because they had their integral mortar platoon and they were- they've been based on Ripcord most of the time, but now they're in Katherine or whatever base you were on at that point. Okay, so you're, that's probably part of E company which was the support company. Yeah, yeah, yeah right, yes. Interviewer: Okay alright so you're with them now, now once, now how- how long did you actually spend in the hospital before they let you out? Maybe three weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, maybe three weeks. Interviewer: And do you remember how you spent that time? �(1:07:03) You know I don't recall and I don't recall how my face looked and maybe I’m supposed to not remember but what I didn't bring into the picture was out in the field I would do haircuts for the guys, yeah and they would just be on a, maybe an ammo crate that we brought supplies in and in fact it's in- in the book I think on page 95. The author in the year 2000 it’s the first reunion I went to, he was signing books and that's when the book came out. Tell him what, and he goes, “you know Mike,” he says, “I’m really sorry I couldn't put your name in there but your captain he said ‘Biarelli, Chiarelli,’ he says but if- if it wasn't sure, I wasn't going to put it in there.” But he made reference to it, so I was happy for that, that was pretty neat you know a little bit of history. You know, he made- he made guys feel as though they were human again for the first time since they were back for some. And I remember just, and it was just fun because I remember packing up to go to Vietnam when I had my orders I left home and my mom telling me in Italian which I kind of remembered, I- I don't speak Italian, but I knew what she said when she called me by Miguel, you know, “why are you taking these tools? You are going to war.” And I just felt the closeness to it and- and here it panned out I guess it was supposed to happen. And here now at the reunions every year I cut hair and they make donations, and it goes to the association, but a lot of guys timed their haircut for here because they have to pay anyway so they make a donation, and they don't have to some guys they don't have to pay it’s fine. (1:08:42) Interviewer: Well, I’ve seen you cut General Harrison’s hair, there wasn't a whole lot to cut there. No, no, yeah General Harrison yeah. �Interviewer: Basically, you do, so basically so you- you have a barber, basically just a little, how big was the kit that you took? Just a little case or? Oh, it was a scissor and comb, basically. Interviewer: Okay. Or a scissor and two or three combs yeah, yeah that- that's it just rolled up in a towel. Interviewer: Alright and then you just do this when you had down time someplace? Yeah, you're doing down yeah, the guys, “yeah, cut my hair,” because when they had us go back to the rear to Camp Evans there was just, I don't know these people there were VC, I don't know what the, know, Vietnamese. Interviewer: Right. And they would cut hair and- and it didn't matter what you told them everybody got the same haircut; you know they just used the clippers and just took it all off basically. And think it was 35 cents we paid for it, and it was in MPC, it looked like monopoly money, military payment certificate it looked exactly like monopoly money. Yeah, but those were okay those, those were happy times because I did that on when I was in mortars also for the guys. (1:09:43) Interviewer: Alright now when you were with mortars did you spend the whole time on one firebase? Would they move you around? No, the whole time, the whole time. I felt like I was on vacation. Interviewer: And while you were there did the base get hit with mortars or probe by sappers or anything like that? Nothing never. Interviewer: Okay. �Never, it was like in support, that's what they did, we supported the guys out in the field, that's what they did. Interviewer: And about how long do you think you were there? Probably for six, seven months. Interviewer: Okay so really just the whole rest of your tour? Just about yeah, yeah eleven months and nine days, at the time Nixon was- was having us come home so I got a like a 21 day early out. Interviewer: Right. So, I did eleven months, nine days. Not twelve months, so that I think one day, anything, one hour, doesn't matter, get out of there. Interviewer: Right. Yeah. (1:10:38) Interviewer: Now did you get an R&R while you were… Oh yeah, I did, I did, and I went to Bangkok, Thailand I was there for I guess a week or five days and it was okay, if I had to do it over again, I should have went to Australia. But the guys come back, and they said you gotta go because of the women and so I should have never went. I should have went to Australia, but I wasn't married at the time so it was good, it was. Interviewer: But it was- it was a place where they were not shooting at you. No, they weren’t, and they were very nice to people, and I remember I went somewhere, got a picture of me with a snake around my neck. A lot of the guys had it, probably the same snake, you know. �Interviewer: No, it was kind of one of the tourist kind of things that they had going there. Yeah, alright now were you one of the people who kept a- a calendar for how long you were there or? Well we- we called it a short timers calendar and it was, it started from 100 days and you mark off each day and you know you were short when you got to two digits 99, but we realized you really weren't short until you were on the plane back home to the “World” as we refer to the U.S. as the “World” and I remember that incident on the tarmac everybody was lined up and they said, “okay nothing would be said, please if you have anything, any kind of contraband drugs, weapon, whatever, please empty out your pockets.” And I was just so taken back that some of the guys that had live grenades, C-4, blasting caps, trip flares, and most of these guys that had that stuff they weren't in infantry, they were taking it back as a souvenir. Interviewer: Yeah. And I thought to myself, this was gonna go on that plane, if something ever happened. Interviewer: Yeah. But also, people had bags of marijuana, but they just scooped it all up and nothing was said. So, I guess I'm here, so thank God nothing happened. (1:12:35) Interviewer: Yeah, now did you observe much by way of drug use while you were there? Very little you know my platoon, my squad, we knew that we had to be sane. We- we didn't do it- we didn't do it, no one did it. And I guess that was a good thing, new guys coming in, they did what we did, they didn't do it. Interviewer: Yeah. �You know we- we heard about it a lot when we were in the rear you know I saw it, it was there, it was out in the open, but I- I never messed with it I really never did. I mean my- my son one day we were watching something and- and there was this guy smoking this stuff with this big jar of something over here. Interviewer: Yeah. And I don't know what it was and my son “Dad, you don't know what that is?” I don't, no. He goes, “Dad that's a bong.” I didn't know what it was, I didn't know what it was. Interviewer: Well, you wouldn't, you couldn't have something like that in the field. No, no, no. Interviewer: What about on the firebase, I mean did you have people who smoked there that you ever noticed or? Not that I know. Interviewer: Now would you get a beer ration if you're on a base somewhere? (1:13:38) I don't, you know I don't recall beer; no, I do recall cans of soda though which was really good even though it was hot it was good. No, no, no beer rations, no I believe in the rear at Camp Evans I think they were, might have been able to get a beer. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Sort of but you pretty much spent all, almost all of your time out in the bush someplace you know whether it's a small firebase or actually in the field. I did, I did. �Interviewer: All that, alright now when they, you got your orders to go home, I mean did you, had you put in for an early out, so you knew it was coming or did they just offer it to you? No, they offer it to me their 21 day early out, if I wanted to sign up for six more months they'll give me buck sergeant stripes, but like I said I don't believe I would have done it even for a million dollars. Interviewer: Yep. (1:14:30) I just, I just wanted back to the “World.” Interviewer: Alright so you were talking about not going back and you're- you're lining up and the guys are unloading at the tarmac, there they've unloaded the contraband; you get on the plane and then what was it like to take off and fly out of Vietnam? Well yeah it was, it was you know, and it was taxiing to fly and kind of like when it was off the ground and rising everybody screamed and yelled and I couldn't believe it and yay, and now we're short, this is short, you know not 99 days or nine days, this is being short, you'll be back in the “World” in, in hours, yeah. And we were at Washington state where I, finished where they processed me out. Interviewer: Right so Fort Lewis probably. I don't know what it was, but I remember one guy standing in line and we were in line for something and for the process and he fell to the ground, and he was kind of shaking and happen to be a medic. He was having an epileptic fit, but he was fine, they knew what to do, they put something under his, above his tongue and I guess, he was fine he came out of it, but he had an �epileptic fit, so I don't know if they, he was out in the boonies and they took him or was he in the rear that he did his job that he, I don't know. Interviewer: That was kind of strange. (1:15:57) Yeah, yeah it was. Interviewer: Alright, okay so you do now let's see and then today once you were there, once you're back in Washington there, when they're processing you out did they make another offer to get you to re-enlist or anything like that? No, no nothing we're going through some processing, and they gave us clean clothes and stuff and I think they said something, they gave me a card or something they said, “you've earned this and this, but we ran out we don't have them, but when you get back home, just mail this.” And I did and then whatever it came in the mail with whatever medals I had which I wasn't sure what really, they were for other than the one that was obvious, a purple heart, but the other ones I- I wasn't sure I really didn't know what they were, I really didn't. Interviewer: But you wound up with a couple of bronze stars for merits. For merits. Interviewer: Not sure how that happened, but somebody wrote you up somewhere. (1:16:58) Yes, they did. Interviewer: So- so, some officer was doing his job. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright so you get there, now but you're actually discharged there in Washington as part of the out processing now? �Yes, I was, I was done. I was- I was out. Interviewer: Alright and now did you fly back home then? Flew back home, yeah. Interviewer: And did you do that in uniform or in civilian clothes? No I did it, they for some reason they had us wear our dress greens, and I remember in the airport, either Washington or when I landed at Kennedy, and like I said I thought we were supposed to be proud and all of that and then I remember people just walking in front of me and spitting on the ground. What's going on, and then I hear in back of me, “baby killer.” And I thought, I just got the goosebumps, I thought I can't wait to take this off, I just and I didn't think, you know years later I thought I said, I could have went in the men's room, I had the luggage I could have taken off my uniform and put on civilian clothes. Why I didn't think to do that, I don't know but I remember when I got home, I couldn't wait to take it off and it went in the back of the closet, I did not see it or whatever. And even I had three brothers and one of them that was- was in the service career, Germany and I talked about, tried to talk about my experiences but it was like it was- it was nothing, I was like and I just I could, then I just shut up, I just clammed up 1971 and then I didn't do anything, you know 1971, then 1991, I- I started crying. My mother-inlaw had passed away and I was continually crying on and off for weeks and weeks and my wife said, “you're not crying for my mother are you?” I go, “no, I don't know why I’m crying.” So, my sister who worked for the IRS, my wife called her, she said I’ll see what I find out. She called back the next day she said tell him to go to V.A. hospital he probably has PTSD. And yes, I did, I was diagnosed with PTSD twenty years later comes out and you know I don't think you ever get cured of PTSD. Interviewer: No. �(1:19:12) I really don't think so but again certain noise, I try to explain to people that how I would jump or react to noise, you know a noise is generic you know it's just, the noise could be jingle bells, it could be a car screeching, those are noises, but they produce different things, produce different tones and it's the tone that causes me to jump, it's the tone of that noise. So, and I can't tell you exactly what it is and what combination, but it could be silverware clinging, it could be boxes falling, and it's just I guess it goes back and- and I- and I jump. It's really crazy up to all these years. Interviewer: Yup. And I still do that, but someone told me that in World War II, Korea it was either battle fatigue or shell shock. Interviewer: Yup. (1:20:00) But they didn't know then it- it was PTSD. Yeah, like they didn't know it was PTSD, yeah andand my one- my one sergeant, the black sergeant that I asked to get out of his platoon- patrol, a few nights later we're out in the bush and he's out there with his squad, not me, and then we hear this huge explosion, he was setting up claymore mines, as we weren't allowed to say booby trapping, their pre-warning devices. Interviewer: Right. But heck you know they did it to us we need, and he was setting it up with trip line or whatever and what from what the other guys told me they said he did it, he didn't want to listen he thought he was done, he walked, he tripped it himself, it blew his bottom of his legs off they said. And that same night it wasn't dark yet, they planked him out and took him out and wrapped him up �and I don't know what it was, poncho,I don't know what it was. And I could still see his body doing this as the chopper was leaving and taking him out and all those other guys that were out there, they came, a helicopter the next day and they took them out. Their- their hearing was just, they, ringing and so they just and I don't know what happened to them and maybe it was bad enough that they- they didn't send them back but I also tell myself that if I was still in his squad, maybe I would have seen something that I would have said to him but then again he might not have listened. Interviewer: Yep. (1:21:29) He might not have listened it’s sad, and the first time I went to the wall, the only one time I ever been I went to his name on the wall and I just knelt down and I was crying and I had this bracelet that we used to pass on to everybody and I just left the bracelet there under his name and my counselor at the V.A. hospital, I told him I was going, he says, “from past experience,” he says, “what are you gonna take with you?” I says, “I don't know maybe I’ll take my boots or my medal,” he says, “Mike from past experiences from other vets, don't, they're sorry they left all of that, so don't just take all of it,” and- and I didn't, I still have my boots, I still have my boots. Wow. Interviewer: Alright now you got back, and you said, okay you just went into, you just were a barber. (1:22:23) Yeah. Interviewer: And then- and then did you do that in New York for a long time or did you move or? �No, I was Long Island, I got a job right away and I- I started working and I did that all for the past 30 years I did barbering, and I don't know, I don't know what else that's all I did. Interviewer: Well, how did you wind up in Texas? Well my wife, she just wanted to come here for something, she always wanted to come here. Interviewer: Okay. And I said to her, I says “I’m scared to get on a horse,” you know that stereotype- stereotype it's just like they stereotype New York that everybody's walking around with an Uzi. Interviewer: Texas ?? And I really, I don't like to get on a horse you feel like you're really high. And she goes “no not that, oh I just want to go.” We came for a visit, we rented an apartment, went back to Long Island, packed up and moved. Yeah 1977 we moved, I can't- can't get over all those years, but I believe it was a good move for both of us, it really was good, yeah it really was. (1:23:24) Interviewer: Alright, now aside from the- the PTSD experience and so forth, how do you think your- your time in the service affected you or what did you take out of all of that? Well, you know I didn't know I was anti-social ‘til probably about three months ago, my son who's 29 he's the youngest, he just went, we went, and he just said it right out, “Dad, you're antisocial.” And I never knew I was, and I looked at my wife and I said she goes, “yeah you are Mike.” And I says, “well tell me why?” “Well, you know you don't like to be with people you're in company, you go off, sit in a corner by couch/ recliner all by yourself, you're looking at a magazine or you're flipping tv and you'd rather just be alone.” And I didn't realize, and I guess I was, and I am. I guess because I’m- I’m hurting. Interviewer: Yeah. �(1:24:19) I really am, I’m just hurting, I just. Interviewer: Connecting maybe costs too much. Yeah, yeah, I don't- I don't know I just. Interviewer: Well, I- I very much appreciate the fact that you're willing to come in and share the story today because you tell your story well, you did a good job, so. Well thank you. Interviewer: Thank you very much. I appreciate that, I was kind of nervous I didn't know what to expect. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChiarelliM1685V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chiarelli, Mike Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10 Title A name given to the resource Chiarelli, Mike (Interview transcript and video), 2014 Description An account of the resource Mike Chiarelli was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1949, to parents who immigrated from Sicily. In 1969, he got a draft notice while attending barber college, but he was allowed to finish school before being inducted into the Army in Fort Dix, New Jersey and sent to Fort Jackson, South Carolina for basic and advanced training for the infantry. After advanced training, he was sent to Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland because he had not received orders to go to Vietnam yet. After three weeks at Aberdeen he was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky, and, three months later, to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam to be shipped to Phu Bai Combat Base. Chiarelli was assigned to the 2nd Batallion, 506th Infantry B Company of the 101st Airborne Division and served in Vietnam for eleven months from 1970-1971. He went to Bangkok, Thailand for R&R. While fighting in Vietnam, his friend Roberto Flores got killed and Chiarelli still lives with the guilt. After spending most of his deployment out in the field for the Battle of Fire Support Base Ripcord, his Company was assigned to do security for the perimeter of the base. At the end of the battle, he got burned on the face from an explosion the day they evacuated the base. He spent three weeks in the hospital to recover, after which he was flown back to Fort Lewis in Washington state, where he was discharged. He returned home in New York to work as a barber and later got a business associate’s degree. In 1977, he and his wife moved to Texas. Chiarelli still suffers from PTSD and often spends time alone to cope. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d8f75cf8ab733d785912759c523f5d4.mp4 625f788b78a20096e9a1dcf7b5cd407d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91ea873b36dc9bf7ae580621a28d6de3.pdf d2d2d0a439fadc6d1c5c34d7341c58e0 PDF Text Text Chardoul, Paul Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Paul Chardoul Length of Interview: (2:33:24) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Paul Chardoul of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Okay Paul begin with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Waterloo, Iowa on August 17th, 1939. Interviewer: “Alright, did you grow up in Iowa or did you move around?” (00:53) Lived there until I was 11 years old and then moved to Flint. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?” My dad was a realtor in Iowa and when we moved to Flint he set up another realty firm in Flint. Interviewer: “Okay, and– So you finished high school in Flint?” Flint Central, right. Interviewer: “Okay and what year did you graduate?” 1957. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you got out of high school?” Went to college, University of Michigan, got a bachelor’s in history and then worked– I wanted to work under a particular person at Michigan State so I got my masters in 19th century American military history, graduating from that in ‘64 the same year that I left for active duty. Interviewer: “Alright, so how did you wind up in the Navy?” When I was writing my master's thesis I had to cut down the number of hours as you can well imagine and 60’s was a prime time to be drafted, so I joined the naval reserves as a seaman recruit, and this was in Lansing, and I was there for six months. Took the officer battery test, scored well on it, and went off to officer candidate school. Interviewer: “Alright, so basically you were in a situation where you figured you were eligible to get drafted and the draft was ramping up, because it got steadily increased in the early 60s it wasn’t as bad as it was going to get during Vietnam because Vietnam hadn’t officially heated up yet but it was starting. Okay, so you just got a step ahead of things and then why did you decide to become an officer?” (3:06) I didn’t like the thought of being enlisted for two years and even though there was a three year commitment for officers I said “I think that’s a better choice.” With my background I thought I could do something for the Navy as well. Interviewer: “Okay so you hope that they might be able to use your particular skill set, military history and so forth.” Exactly. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so now while you were still in that first six months while you’re enlisted what did your Navy duties consist of or what kind of training did you get?” �Chardoul, Paul You mean as a seaman recruit? Interviewer: “Yeah.” It was just once a week training at the naval reserve center which was marginally good, didn’t learn very much, learned how to wear a uniform and that was really about it. Interviewer: “Alright, and so from there it’s on to the officer candidate school?” (4:13) Correct. Interviewer: “Alright and so when were you there?” I was there from early February 1964 until June of ‘64, this is in Newport, Rhode Island. Interviewer: “Alright, so what did that training course consist of?” 18 weeks of combination of academic and military training, the academic included such things as operations, engineering, basic thermodynamics, some nuclear information, navigation, and you know just learning how to be an officer. Interviewer: “Okay and what kind of mix of people were in your class?” There were 12 companies, each one with about 30 males, because I got there the first day I was in Alpha Company, the first one, and the barracks were temporary barracks from World War II, horrible conditions. As a matter of fact in March the back end of the barracks fell off, and that’s where all the showers and that was so we had to go to the next building over to take a shower and drive in a snowstorm, not fun but the training was fantastic. It really was and I was able to learn an awful lot about the Navy that I didn’t realize that was part of it. The very first night I got there I was in a coat and tie and they had us scrubbing the deck, I took my jacket off, wrapped my tie around my neck so it wouldn’t get in the way. I’m on the deck scrubbing and then they �Chardoul, Paul ran us off to dinner, I thought we’d get candlelight dinners, nuh-uh we had 15 minutes to run to the mess hall, eat, and get back and some of the guys were getting a little sick on the way back. It was kind of a greasy meal, but it was kind of an introduction to things might not be as sophisticated as you think they are. Interviewer: “I guess you might have seen in movies or something, officer and officer’s mess and all wearing their white uniforms and the stewards coming and serving them, yeah.” That’s right. Interviewer: “Well not quite, maybe at the Naval Academy you get that but anyway, not officer candidate school. Okay, and then while you’re there at officer candidate school or when you’re signing up for that, did you get to request any kind of more specialized training or types of duty?” (7:10) Yeah, you fill out what they call a dream sheet, and of course everyone wanted destroyers, I said “I wanna be a communications officer.” And so after I got my commission I spent another two months in Newport at the officers communications school and that was– It was very rewarding because it taught us an awful lot, and one of the things they taught us was if you screw up you’re going to Fort Leavenworth and so, you know keep your nose to the grindstone and because I’m a person who believes in detail it made it a little easier. Interviewer: “Alright, now explain for people who don’t know, what does it mean if they’re threatening you with Fort Leavenworth?” Oh, it’s a federal prison. Interviewer: “Right, it’s military prison, yeah and so that would be– What kind of mistake would get you sent to prison?” �Chardoul, Paul Dealing with classified material and losing stuff because I also got my first ship, which was an ammunition ship, and because we carried special weapons almost everything we did was classified, at least secret, and some of the stuff was higher than that. So I took over as top secret control officer, and classified material control officer, and crypto security officer besides being communications officer and assistant operations officer. So it was a full time job and then some. Interviewer: “Alright, so what was that first assignment, what ship did you go to?” That was on the U.S.S Diamond Head. Interviewer: “Can you explain what kind of ship that was?” Yeah, it was an ammunition ship, all ammunition ships are named after volcanoes for obvious reasons, and we learned very early on that if that ship blew up it would basically create a big hole in the Atlantic ocean. We carried more firepower than what was expended in World War II on one ship. Interviewer: “Alright, and where were you based?” (9:36) In Norfolk, Virginia, but we were seldom there we were out at sea, of the 18 months I was on board probably out at sea 15 of the 18 months. Interviewer: “Okay, and about how big was the ship?” It was about 30,000 tons. Interviewer: “Okay so in terms of its length and–” About 470 feet long. Interviewer: “So essentially a large freighter?” �Chardoul, Paul Essentially yeah it was– Actually I was doing a zone inspection and I found a little panel down in one of the recesses that had been built in 1937, and they claim it had been built in 1941 but it was older than they thought, I think it was reconditioned. Interviewer: “Alright, and so what kind of reception do you get when you first arrive at the ship, what are your first few days like?” Well the first thing you do is you sign in when you board the ship and of course you learn to salute the ensign at the back of the ship, and discern the ship, and request permission coming aboard, and you have your orders with you, and I was taken to the officer of the deck who gave me the address of the commanding officer and said “Please contact the commanding officer.” This is at his home, so I actually waited until the next day because it was on a Sunday I knew he’d be in the next day. He came in and I came in and talked to him, he was a full captain and was an individual who was really quite an innovator and we didn’t– He’d been a former communicator too so he was kind of watching me pretty carefully and he said “We’re gonna make this ship the best ship on the Atlantic fleet.” And I said “Okay sounds good to me.” You know, so we had a very interesting conversation for about 15 minutes and then he pushed me out and I went right to work. (12:07) I had an on site relief from the preceding command– Or communications officer, and that lasted about two days. Interviewer: “So that means basically he’s showing you what to do in those two days?” Yeah, and of course without getting into some of the classified material, there was an awful lot of inventory we had to do and that was primarily what we did, and then do a nice burn and make out the burn report and all that. It’s really very cut and dry but very complex. Interviewer: “Okay when you say– When you refer to a burn what do you mean by that?” You have to physically burn documents and anything– Let’s leave that one off. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Okay, alright but the kind of thing that could happen if there was some risk of the ship being lost–” Like the Pueblo. Interviewer: “Yeah, that sort of thing.” I’ve talked to a couple officers in the Pueblo and– Interviewer: “Yeah, okay. Alright but that’s the nature of what you’ve got and the secret nature of the material, okay. How long was it before you went out to sea?” (13:27) About a week and a half, I did a NATO cruise into the north Atlantic. I experienced my first hurricane, yeah it did a lot of damage to the ship. We were working with an aircraft carrier and– You know what a sponson is on a carrier? Interviewer: “You should describe that for the audience.” It’s this thing that hangs off the side of the carrier, it was about 55 feet above the water, it was twisted 90 degrees by a wave, so you can imagine the kinds of waves we were experiencing. We were up north of the arctic circle, north of Iceland, and I was surprised to find even though– Not only was exercise, as in NATO exercise, classified secret but even the title of the exercise was classified secret, and so we got to a point where we were rearming the U.S.S Independence and the U.S.S Enterprise, the nuclear carrier, and it was in a place called Point Snow which was just a little dot in the middle of the ocean, way up in this Norwegian sea and there’s a Russian trawler waiting for us and at one point on the primary tactical circuit I’m up on the bridge because I was also the officer of the desk for all rearmings, “Ensign Chardoul, do you realize your parents were killed in an auto accident last week?” Now I’ve been out at sea for about two weeks, I’m shaking, and I look at the commanding officer and he just shook his head and said “I don’t know.” And what they were doing is they were picking up garbage out of the water and they found some material and you know some documents whatever and were able to piece together a �Chardoul, Paul lot of what we were doing and after the exercise was over, it lasted about two and a half weeks– Oh, while we were up there our radar mast got blown off, it landed on the main deck and one of my other collateral duties was electronics material officer. So I had to climb up the radar mast to see how much damage had been done to the coupler and all that, and I’d left permanent fingerprints in that steel. I mean I’m not a good climber cause water, ship, water, ship, water– I mean we were really rocking quite a bit. So we went down to the bay at Biscayne where it was fairly quiet and we were able to from there go into a small port and they were able to put a derrick up and put the mast– Or the radar back on, but after the exercise was over we went to Portsmouth, England and all the communicators were called into a room and we were read the riot act for, you know, for all kinds of computer violations, getting information that shouldn’t be eliminated because the intelligence people were able to basically rewrite the entire operation order based on what they’re listening to. So it’s, you know, that’s when you really become very conscious of how important security is. Interviewer: “Did you call home?” (17:40) No. Interviewer: “Okay so you didn’t think your parents were killed in an auto accident?” Oh I checked by other means but, we had no way of calling. Interviewer: “Alright so the Russians were just messing with you.” Yeah. Interviewer: “They found your name someplace and decided to use it, okay. Alright, so about how many cruises did you do with that ship or when you’re out at sea how long would you be out?” �Chardoul, Paul We did– Most of our cruises were, you know, just rearming out for a week and back in for a day, out for a week, back in for a day. A couple down into the Caribbean for a month, and then we did seven months in the Mediterranean. Interviewer: “Okay, so talk a little bit about the Med cruise then, what was that like?” Well, because we did carry special weapons and there were two ammunition ships in the Med at all times I was designated as the nuclear release officer for about 45 ships and we got these high priority messages that had to be responded to in a certain format and had– You know we timed it from the time that the message was sent to the time we responded. I was doing it for the 40-some ships of the service force, there were– There’s one on the carrier, one on the cruiser, destroyers, and one in the Naples and we basically had it and– So the four of us did communicate to make sure that, you know, we always sent the messages correct, and it was somewhat traumatic. (19:53) I wanted to see the world, that’s part of the reason I joined the Navy. I never got off the ship because I had to be on board because sometimes we’d get three test messages a day, sometimes you go a week without one and if you– It comes in as a flash message which means you transmit it as fast as humanly possible and so I couldn’t leave the ship. I had an assistant com officer but he wasn’t very good, I couldn’t trust him. Interviewer: “Okay, about how many officers were on a ship like that?” We had about 25-24-25 officers. Interviewer: “Okay, but you still had a lot of hats to wear and you had a bunch of different duties?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and what places did you go to?” In the Med? �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Yeah.” Our first stop was in Rota, Spain and then from there went to Marseille, Naples, made one stop in North Africa to pick up some World War II unexploded bombs, for a little– You know sitting out in the desert for 20 some years they were a little dangerous, they were handled very gingerly, and let’s see, we did Naples a few times. Where else? Genoa, Barcelona. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re mostly in kind of the western half of the Mediterranean rather than out towards Greece or some place like that.” Yeah we were supposed to go to Greece but there was a riot so they canceled that, and I’m Greek so yeah I was kind of looking forward to it. I had contacted relatives and I couldn’t give them specific dates because our movement was classified but I said “I’m gonna be there sometime in the next month.” And that got canceled so we stayed out at sea for 25 days and that was not fun. (22:15) There’s not much to do on an ammunition ship, unlike a carrier where they’ve got gyms, and you know weight rooms, and everything else and you can run on the flight deck. Interviewer: “Did you have movies or things like that, did they do that?” Our movie officer was totally incompetent and he would mess it up and he would always get the wrong movies, and his boss the chief engineer, all he wanted to see was Randolph Scott movies. Have you ever seen a Randolph Scott movie? Interviewer: “I’ve seen Randolph Scott in various things.” Oh they’re terrible. He gave away some fantastic movies to get Randolph Scott movies and often he’d be the only one in the wardroom watching because the commanding officer would send his steward down and basically clear everybody else out. “I want this report on my desk by tomorrow morning.” You know, whatever and the junior officer always had to make popcorn and luckily I was not junior officer for very long but– And I’m not in the wardroom anyways so– �Chardoul, Paul That was– There wasn’t an awful lot to do for entertainment, you know you’re always thinking of things you can do to improve what you’re doing, plus going through enlisted service records, counseling the people under you because a lot of them are 18-19 years old and never been away from home and you become their father, and you better know something about them. Interviewer: “Okay, about how many enlisted men were working for you?” About 22. Interviewer: “Okay, and so most of them were the younger ones?” Yeah, non-rated I had one– Two chiefs, two E6s, three E5s, and the rest were E4 or non-rated. Interviewer: “Alright now are there– Think about the time you spent on the ammunition ship. Are there other particular memories or things that stand out for you?” (24:50) While I was on it? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Well when we were coming back from the Med we extended for a month because our replacement A.D was having problems in Mayport, Florida. So we extended a month and that kind of messed things up, but as a communications officer I saw a message saying that our ship was going to go in the shipyard right after we got back for an electronics overhaul and as electronics material officer I’d be the one who’d be stuck in the shipyard dealing with yard birds and everybody else would be on liberty and I had gone seven months without liberty and I said “I don’t think I want to do that.” And about two days later another message came through saying they’re looking for young officers to man reconditioned LSTs to go to Vietnam, and I said “Okay, I’ll do that.” I wasn’t married so I thought that’d be a nice change. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Okay, so if you had wanted to, would you just have stayed with the ammunition ship your whole time?” I could’ve, yes. Interviewer: “So they weren’t making people– They weren’t necessarily moving officers around, at least routinely.” Well normally for junior officers the normal tour is 18 months to two years and I’m just coming up on 18 months and I figured, you know it’s time to move on. There’s something– You know, you burn out and it’s called homesteading too, you get too involved in the same thing and you become single faceted and you’re not really developing as an officer. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now during this time while you were on the Diamond Head, that’s when things really started to heat up in Vietnam because you had the Tonkin gulf incident late in ‘64 and then in ‘65 were sending ground troops in and now we’re kind of getting into ‘66 and so a lot of stuff is happening. Now were you able to follow that news or did you pay much attention to it while you were on the Diamond Head?” (27:18) Just peripherally, I knew it was going on and I had seen the movie Green Berets and I was like “Oh yeah that sounds like fun.” You know, and my brother is an MD and he was ordered to volunteer for the draft in ‘62 and so he was in Texas and he landed up in Korea as the regimental surgeon for the 1st Cavalry Division or one of the regiments for the 1st Cav and he’s right up on the DMZ and he kept saying “Oh I wish I could go to Vietnam.” And I was like “Well okay I’ll be your alter ego, I’ll go.” So I went. Interviewer: “Alright, so you– What ship then do you transfer to?” Well we got back, as I said, in late December– Interviewer: “1965?” �Chardoul, Paul ‘65 yeah, and I got orders to the U.S.S Chesterfield County, which is an LST. LSTs are the ones with the bow doors that open up and the bow ramp comes down and it goes right up on the beach, and they’re small, they’re 3200 tons, totally flat bottomed without even a hint of a keel which means they’re going to roll a lot, and this ship was part of a reserves LST squadron that had just been taken off reserve status and made regular status. They had spent a few days down in Santo Domingo, at that time there was four officers and 25 enlisted and when I came on board I was the fifth officer and then we augmented to 11 officers and 104 enlisted. So a lot of us training the new people. Interviewer: “Okay, well– And so where were you based?” Little Creek, Virginia which is right near Norfolk. Interviewer: “And that’s an area where, going back to World War II, they practiced amphibious landings and they did training and all of that so that’s the place for the LSTs. Okay, how long did you spend there?” (30:15) In Little Creek? About a month, and it basically was learning how to drive a different kind of a ship because the ammunition ship was a single screw ship, that didn’t maneuver real well and was big, the LST was two screws, fairly large screws, sitting behind two blade rudders but the engines were 800 horsepower diesel engines, two of them. So our maximum speed was about eight and a half knots but no smoke. Interviewer: “Okay, so now you talk about getting up to a crew of over a 100, would those– Did you keep that larger complement when you finally went out to sea?” Yeah. Interviewer: “So what did you need that many men for?” �Chardoul, Paul Basically moving supplies, because I was the fifth officer XO called me into his office and he said “I’ve got this stack of records for enlisted people, can you help me distribute them?” I said “Sure, why not.” So we went through the records and this guy goes to engineering, this guy goes to supply, you know and so forth, and he says “Oh I got somebody for ship’s office!” That he was responsible for, and I said “Can I see it?” And he showed it to me and he had a master’s degree from Caltech, and he had a ham license, and I said “I think I’d like him as one of my communications people.” and he said “No, I need him in ship’s office.” and I said “He can’t type.” And so I said “Here’s a guy who has a bachelor’s degree from University of Miami in Florida, you can have him.” And he said “Okay.” Now both the XO and I were lieutenant junior grades and he was– You know I was second from the bottom in terms of seniority– Eventually but, you know we were friends and so I took this guy on, and he was a seaman, he just graduated from basic training and we had just installed a transceiver, a small totally solid state receiver transmitter as an experiment from Collins Radio and we were going to test this thing out and he took one look at it and saw what it could do– He also had a speed key he could send many words a minute, and he said– He went up and checked he antennas and he said “Nuh-uh, all wrong.” I said “Well we’ve got a 26 foot whip end antenna for this.” He says “No, no we need a long wire.” “So how are we gonna do it?” And he said “Let’s go to the store.” (33:40) So we went to– It was either radio shack or something like that– Bought a long wire, I paid for it, and he designed the coupler, hooked it up to the transceiver, we could communicate with the world because this thing— You know that long wire we just turned it sideways and it gave us this horrendous capacity to send message traffic. When we were off in Vietnam we were sending, not to Guam, not to Saigon, but to Rota, Spain and Greece and before you communicate in the Navy with morse code you said what’s called a nondescript thing it’s N followed by one letter and he’s send N T and they’d say “Go ahead John, send your message.” They knew who he was just from that and he was i mean really– He really– And because he had the ham license I converted it to a mobile marine license so that guys could call home. Interviewer: “Alright, so you’re getting the ship ready to go, you’re signing the crew and all this kind of thing, so now going to just move us forwards here. Once you’ve got your ship’s complement, what do you do next? Where do you go, what happens?” �Chardoul, Paul Took it out and just did some maneuvering in the Virginia Capes operating area, just a little bit, went up to Newport to load a new radar on. They took the radar I had on the bridge off, it had been put up there illegally, and put a new one on that died about three weeks later so it became a seat for the junior officer of the deck, a $25,000 seat. It never really worked well after that even though my electronics technicians tried to keep it up they couldn’t do it, it just didn’t work well. It was a short yard period, they installed a huge bladder at the back end of the tank deck, LSTs have what’s called a tank deck where literally tanks can sit down there and because they filled this thing with water. First heavy ship– Or sea we got the thing twisted and it dropped down, broke, that was it no more water, luckily nobody got hurt. We had a chance to– The officers– To train in a basin with radio controlled model ships, they’re about this long and I got a chance to be able to twist that LST around. It was really quite interesting because the thing– When you go on the beach you turn sideways. Here’s the beach, and you come at it but before you start to move it forwards you drop your anchor, your stern anchor, right up on the beach. Sometimes at full speed, eight and a half knots, grind up on the beach, open the bow doors, drop the bow ramp and then stuff can theoretically go off dry. (37:36) Doesn’t always work that way but that’s the idea, and then when you’re retracting you just bring that stern anchor in and you pull yourself off onto your own anchor. It doesn’t always work because sometimes when you’re on the beach if you’re off loading cargo you’re getting lighter, which means you’re either gonna float off– You keep your engines running and you keep working your way forward, and when you’re doing that sometimes you’re creating vacuums underneath the ship and it creates a suction that even with the stern anchor and those two 800 horse diesels you can’t get off, and they have to use small tugs to pull you off and all that, and we did that once under fire which wasn’t fun. Interviewer: “Alright, but you were getting to practice this with models first?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and so when do– So eventually you’re going to go to Vietnam, but there are sort of stages in the process along the way. So kind of take us through that.” �Chardoul, Paul Yeah we left on the 11th of February. There were four of us that were gonna go off together and February is– Well remember the fog we had yesterday morning? Multiply that by ten, you couldn’t see 20 feet and somebody– The pilot came on board and went to light off the engines, I mean unlike the ammunition ships that had boilers you had to set up hours in advance, these you pushed a button that started the engine. Well the port engine worked but the starboard engine wouldn’t, they tried they couldn’t get the thing going. So the pilot said “I’m going down to the end of the pier I’m gonna drink coffee.” So he went down to the end of the pier and we’re sitting there and the engine people are trying to get that thing going, and I was on the quarter deck. A car pulled up, a big black car with a flag on the fender with three stars on it. “Hmmm, I wonder what that is.” The driver got out he was a 1st Class yeoman and he started walking up the quarter deck, and I said “Salute the ensign.” So he saluted the ensign, I said “Alright now you may approach.” And he said “Give this note to your commanding officer.” I said “Okay.” And he turned and walked off and so I looked at the car and I could see someone with epaulets on and whoa the admiral’s there. (40:25) So of course I read it on the way up to the commanding officer’s cabin, who by the way was only a lieutenant, and it said “Get your ship out of my harbor, Vice Admiral Duncan.” So I said “Here Skipper.” “Oh!” He went crazy. “Get the pilot!” So I ran down the pier and brought the pilot back and still hadn’t gotten the engine going. So we got underway on one engine. Interviewer: “So how long did it take to actually fix the engine?” A few days. So we’re going along past the coast of North Carolina– Now we’re down to about five knots– Coast of North Carolina, I was doing coastal piloting at night– At the mid watch, we’re going backwards. So I turned the ship 0-9-0 and headed out to sea, called up the skipper on the phone and I said “Skipper I’ve changed course to 0-9-0 going due east because we’re stuck in the gulf stream.” He said “Well what are you gonna do?” I said “When we’re past the gulf stream I’m gonna turn south again.” He said “How can you tell?” I said “I’m taking soundings.” “What do you mean?” I said “I’m measuring the water temperature when the water temperature gets cold, in February, I’m gonna turn south.” And I thought “This guy’s an academy grad, he couldn’t figure that out?” You know? So anyway, we did it and so the other three ships took off. Our first stop was in North Carolina where they loaded a landing craft utility, which is about a 40 �Chardoul, Paul ton boat, on the fore deck. Built this cradle, wooden cradle to set it in, and then we went onto Guantanamo Bay and there we ran into the three other LSTs and we did some training and had some other mechanical issues and finally got underway, and went from there to the Panama Canal and these ships are small enough that you could put two of them side by side, and back to back. Going through the Panama Canal which is an all day venture for us– By the way, going through the Panama Canal and crossing the sill of a dry dock are the only two times where the commanding officer of a Navy ship relinquished command of the ship, and there’s a special entry that you put into the deck log, you know captain, pilot, so on so forth has taken command of the ship from, you know. So luckily I was on the bridge both of those occasions, it’s an interesting observation, but again it was an all day venture through the locks, the two sets of locks, Gatun Lake and so forth to get to the Pacific. Of course then we broke down again so we stuck in Panama City for another three days and eventually we got underway. Steaming across the Pacific to Hawaii, and again slow ships and be steaming along we decided to do some, what you call tic-tacs, maneuvers, you know side by side, four and a half, you know those other things and one ship would be sending a message “I am losing power.” And they just stopped and we’d just circle around figure out what the problem was and– “Okay we got this extra part, you can have this.” (44:40) Because before you get underway they have what’s called an allowance parts list and you know spare parts for things that normally break down over a period of time, and our APL was never up to date, nor were any others, because most of our priorities were 13, 15, or 17. Whereas submarines, carriers, priority one, so we were at the hind end of that long supply train. Think of all those ships off the west coast today, yeah that’s– In any event, so then the four of us would along then somebody else would break down and you know do the same thing. So it took us 24 days to get to Hawaii. Interviewer: “What was the weather like on that trip?” It wasn’t bad, it really wasn’t bad and got to Hawaii and spent some time there. I had some classified material– I tried to, we didn’t have an incinerator on board ship like we did on the ammunition ship so I found a 55 gallon drum and I had it cut in half and put it on the fan tail. It didn’t burn very well, very slow and I wasn’t happy with the results so I put everything in burn bags and we got to Hawaii and one of the first things I did was burn. One of my collateral duties �Chardoul, Paul on that ship was postal officer and they said “Set up a post office.” Where? Well the wing walls of the tank deck is below the main deck and each side is wing walls which are about, oh maybe, 12 feet wide each side. By the way if you wanna see and LST there’s one in Muskegon. Interviewer: “Yeah Muskegon right?” You’ve seen it? Okay. So ours was just a little bit newer than that but not much, but essentially the same, and so they allocated a space for a post office and I had some like chicken wire put up. I had one of the ship fitters weld into a cage, and we used that. I had a postal clerk who was a friend of the yeoman, they both had degrees from the University of Miami– Or Miami University in Florida, not the one in Ohio, and he was my postal clerk and– But I needed a safe, so I took him to salvage in Pearl Harbor and we found a really nice safe. It was about this big, perfect safe except for in the back there’s a hole, this big perfect hole. So I found a towel, draped it over it, had him load it on a truck, brought it to the ship, had the shipfitter weld it up against the– The only people who knew there was a hole there were the shipfitter, my postal clerk, and me. If somebody could go to the other side they would just– Basically punch their fist through and get into the safe, but it worked. Everything was jury rigged on that ship. (48:32) Haircuts, we had a person who came on board ship as a barber, as we’re going through his records looked at it I said, “I don’t– XO I don’t think this guy would be a good barber.” He says “Why not?” “Well he cut somebody with a razor.” So he became the ship’s laundry man and another guy volunteered to be the barber who had never done it before, but we figured we’re out at sea nobody’s– You know good experimentation time, like going to barber college and the space– A stool about this high, you sat at the stool and the “barber” was on his hands and knees with his little razor cutting and of course the ships rolling you– Get a bald spot but you know nobody cared, and so that was our barber shop. I mean, it wasn’t very sophisticated, let's put it that way. We got to Hawaii and did some exercises there, one of the things we did was called causeway marriages. On the side of the LST there’s a panel about this wide, it sticks out and like a little lip and it runs almost the full length of both sides and you put causeways on there. If you can’t get your ship all the way you can drop those causeways and then marry them when you drop your bow ramp to a bullnose on the top of the bow ramp and you can basically build a bridge, and so we were doing that in what’s called West Loch. Pearl Harbor has several like bays and West Loch is the furthest one to �Chardoul, Paul the west, and then there’s Mid Loch where most the activity occurs and then East Loch where the shipyards are and– So this is in West Loch and four of the officers were experimenting, making landings on this causeway, and it was my turn and I did– I got right on there and hit the bull nose right perfect, put it on, tried to back off, both engines died couldn’t get them started. We’re sitting there trying to figure out how to get this thing going, finally they brought a tug and they hauled us across Pearl Harbor backwards to the shipyard and I’m on the bridge and Skipper’s there and I say “Hey Skipper, look over there.” And you can see the balcony of Pacific Fleet Headquarters, saw all this brass up there, and he ducked down below the combing because he didn’t want to be seen and when I was– After my tour and I was at CINCPAC Fleet, at Pacific Fleet Headquarters, I was talking with the vice admiral and– Because we got to know each other fairly well and I said “Do you remember that?” And he said “Were you on that ship?” We saw that and we said “Oh my God!” Because these 11 LSTs of this former reserve squadron when they became part of the Pacific fleet they more than doubled the casualty reports for the entire Pacific fleet, they were in that bad shape. Interviewer: “Okay casualty reports as in ship damage as opposed to people.” (52:20) Anything, anything that goes wrong. You can try to fix it yourself but if you submit a casualty report it usually increases your priority of getting a spare part if you can do it yourself, or it might require some yard maintenance to have somebody else, some professionals, come in and do the work and our commanding officer did not want casualty reports because he said “That puts me on report.” Well if the alternative is not being able to function you do it, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you’ve made it now as far as Pearl Harbor, so now when do you leave Pearl Harbor?” We were there for about two weeks and then our next stop was the Philippines, Subic Bay and so that was a long slow haul. Another 26 days to get to the Philippines and we spent about four days in the Philippines. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Okay, we’ve got a chronology here that says 26th of March leave Pearl Harbor, 25th of April arrive Subic Bay and then 8th of May depart Subic?” Was that long? Okay, yeah I guess we were there longer than I thought– Oh that’s right we were doing some training there and trying to figure out just what our job was. Very very quickly these 11 LSTs were brought over to augment the run up from about 175,000 troops to about 350,000 and eventually it would be 500 plus thousand, and as you well know the supply train is very good. The American soldier is the best equipped, best fed soldier in the world and he requires a lot of equipment. It’s not just food, it’s computers, and toiletries, and ammunition and all that and it’s really quite extensive and that was going to be our job. So we basically became a supply ship. Interviewer: “Alright, now you’re at these places, you’re at Pearl Harbor, you’re at Subic Bay and so forth do the crew get to go– Do they get to go ashore?” (55:05) Yeah Subic Bay is the armpit of the world. I went ashore once– You cross a canal on a bridge, you look down the canal and you see all the detritus of the world in there. Dead animals and, you know just garbage and excrement, I mean it just stunk and we got to the other side– I didn’t enjoy it at all. So back in the ship every time someone said “Man this is great!” “Well how about let’s trade for Japan.” He said “What?” I said “You can have my day of liberty here in Subic and I’ll take two days of your liberty in Japan.” He says “Oh great!” I knew what I was going to expect in Japan, I was very much looking forward to that. So I did go ashore one other time with the commanding officer to get my computer stuff that I needed and we tied in with what’s called CMSTSE commander military sea transportation service southeast Asia and that’s– Their headquarters were in Subic. Interviewer: “I think my understanding is that Subic Bay was largely drinking and women.” Yeah �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Yeah very much and if you were not pursuing a lot of that then there wasn’t much else to do. Okay, so you kind of go through that process, now when you leave Subic Bay are you now carrying a load of cargo with you?” Yeah we had– They also took off that LCU off the foredeck and somewhere, whether it was in Guantanamo Bay or Panama or Hawaii, the wooden cradle got infected with termites. So when they took off the cradle or the LCU, they had a big 50 ton crane lift it off, they had to break the cradle and these termites were everywhere– Flying everywhere and I mean you couldn’t avoid them. I mean they’re just everywhere and you basically shovel them you couldn’t believe how many there were and of course we had our problems with cockroaches too as all ships. You’re standing a watch, let’s say the mid watch, and messenger wakes you up about 11:30, you get dressed, and you go into the wardroom, into the galley to get a cup of coffee they’ve been cooking since seven o’clock the night before, which I won’t drink coffee that’s more than 20 minutes old anymore, and you flip the lights on the walls would turn from brown to white. The cockroaches running, and you pour the coffee and “Oh gosh.” and then you go up to the bridge and you know stand your watch, but yeah that was not good and because it was flat bottomed the ship did roll. (58:55) When you sat in the wardroom the table had a lip about this high and the steward would put a tablecloth down and then take water and pour it on the table so the dishes wouldn’t slide, and then you sit down and they’d strap you in and depending which way– If the ship was moving this way or this way, you know you’re gonna lose your meal because your chair would slide out from underneath you and you’d get everybody’s food in your lap, you know. It was different it was– Food wasn’t bad except we ate out of the general mess, they didn’t have an officer’s mess like we did on the ammunition ship, and for about– Oh it must’ve been two months we started getting for dessert, dinner, fruit cocktails and wait a minute I was down in enlisted quarters they had cake. “Oh, crew ate it all.” That was the word from the stewards. So I walk back into the galley and here are the three stewards eating 11 pieces of cake, and I called the supply officer who’s junior to me, more junior officer, and I said “You got to stop that, it’s not fair.” You know he had just come out of supply school, he had knew nothing about how to maneuver and get things. So we kind of avoided him and he avoided us, but anyway the night before we were going to make our first trip to Vietnam I had a little ham radio or a little– �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Transistor radio?” A transistor but it was short wave and I picked up harbor entrance control in Chu Lai where we were going and an LST was in there getting pounded with artillery and they had to retract early. So the commanding officer was walking by “Come and listen to this!” And he got all bent out of shape, so we had that to worry about going in. Chu Lai is an interesting port because you go in and there’s a river called the Cu Đê River that flows south and you’re coming in and you have to avoid that current and then make a turn and then run in on the beach, and as we were making our approach you’re going by these several islands and you could hear the artillery going, and so we’re all in combat gear, brain bucket, shirt buttoned up, cuffs into your socks and sleeves rolled down and flak jackets, and because I was the officer of the deck going in, I was in the bridge, and as we were coming in an F-4 from the Air Force Base– It’s not too far away, “Welcome to Sin” And he came in and when he came over the top of us went into afterburner and went straight up and the commanding officer was standing in front of the pilot house and he has binoculars on looking at what’s going on. He didn’t see it, it was coming from behind and he got so excited he dropped down, got his binoculars caught on the windshield wipers and he’s hanging upside down. XO and I are laughing we had to literally cut him down to get him off because he was going to choke, and then this boat came out to guide us in and the guys bring– On the boat, had a pair of cut off pants and a cowboy hat and flip flops and he said “You guys are dressed too much, there’s a bullet with your name on it.” You know, loosen up, and so it was a little better once we got there but it was– We got to Chu Lai probably four different times in the next five months and I couldn’t believe how that place had developed from tents to Quonset huts to regular buildings. They were laying a log runway as opposed to one with the metal– Interviewer: “Yeah the PSP or the metal matting stuff, yeah.” (1:04:25) Yeah, and you know a lot of out buildings and– I mean really amazing how much they had developed that in that period of time because they were getting a lot of supplies there. There were, at the time, two deep water piers in Vietnam, one in Saigon, one in Da Nang and so these large merchant ships– Because that’s really the best way to bring supplies not with LSTs across the Pacific from primarily Oakland. You couldn’t– They couldn’t park every place they wanted �Chardoul, Paul to and they’d be sitting out, like they are in California right now, and so they would break bulk in the Philippines, in Okinawa, and then LSTs would pick up supplies and take it in and that’s basically what our purpose was. Interviewer: “Alright and that’s sort of what you needed a substantial crew for, was just handling all of that cargo going on and being loaded there rather than at your final destination. Okay so Chu Lai is the first place you stop, now where else do you wind up going? I guess after Chu Lai where did you– It lists you going to Taiwan and Japan–” Yeah, we went– Because we needed some repairs, ship repairs, and so we went from there to our temporary home port of Sasebo in Japan but because the Japanese were not happy with the United States involvement in Vietnam, we had to do what’s called breaking voyage where you had to make an intermediate stop and so Taiwan is on the way. So we stopped usually either in Kaohsiung or Keelung on the way up to Japan and with some excuse. Dropping off some retrograde cargo or picking something up and taking it from Taiwan to Japan, same thing going back the other way and sometimes we picked up some major things like we picked up a huge load of bags of cement and these big barrels of bituminous material. Which is not good when those bags break and that stuff leaks, they’re really a mess and if we were not carrying wheeled vehicles or tracked vehicles we had what was called rough terrain forklifts. Which are fairly small but very noisy forklifts, unlike the ones you see with little round wheels these have big wheels, lugged wheels and they were articulated, each wheel had its own motor. So they could almost anywhere and we had three of them and they would take cargo out and move it around onto the sand or whatever. Interviewer: “So we’ve basically gotten you to sort of what you had been to Chu Lai then you went up to Japan. So we we’re kind of talking about– Then we were talking about some of the equipment you had and your forklifts and so forth. On the first visit to Chu Lai did you get shot at or was it quiet?” (1:08:20) We heard but not– No, we did see a helicopter landing probably, oh maybe like, maybe 500 meters away and picking up somebody and we saw that helicopter sitting at the small field �Chardoul, Paul hospital and that’s when I found out the person who had been wounded was in surgery 20 minutes after he was wounded. What a change, you know my master’s thesis was on the civil war, sometimes people would lay out there for two days before they’d find them, if they were still alive. Interviewer: “Well that could happen in combat even in Vietnam depending on where you were but yeah the speed of recovery, the helicopter in particular helped quite a bit. Alright so let’s continue, so what different place in Vietnam did you visit?” Oh boy, often you’re just dropping off some stuff, places like Phan Rang, Nha Trang– Oh boy. Interviewer: “You go to Cam Ranh Bay, right?” Cam Ranh Bay of course, yeah– I’m trying to think of where else. Interviewer: “Well you list Nha Trang, Vũng Tàu, and Saigon and Can Tho which is farther south.” Oh that’s later on. In Nha Trang it’s the home of the Vietnamese naval academy and so we got some cadets on board and at that time they were shorter than I am. To look over the combing on the bridge, they couldn’t see over it so they had to build a little platform so they could stand on there and, you know, at least they got a little experience on and LST. Vietnamese Navy was sort of the bad sister as opposed to the Air Force or the Army and they were not treated well. Their supplies were minimal, their training was terrible so that, you know, gave them some experience doing that which I thought was kind of good. Also went swimming in Nha Trang, they had it cordoned off and they had boats out there patrolling, not so much for the north Vietnamese but for the sea snakes that are kind of nasty. Interviewer: “That kind of thing, alright. Basically just talk about visiting some of these different places here and what you remember about them.” �Chardoul, Paul Okay, Phan Rang, Cam Ranh it was just a quick stop, matter of hours and at least at Cam Ranh Bay when we went in if I remember correctly there was a concrete ramp that we came up on rather than going up on the beach. One of the things about an LST is because you’re on the beach you better know two things: One, the gradient of the beach, and two, the quality of whatever surface you’re landing on. If it’s rocks you better know that and if it’s sand you want to know if it’s round sand or granular because if it’s granular then it compacts a lot more than if it’s round, but round you have a lot more moisture in it. (1:13:00) So you know you have to know all these things and sometimes we’d send somebody out with a pipe and take a sample– Go down about a foot and see what the composition of the ground was which is kind of interesting to do. Interviewer: “Okay, but at Cam Ranh at least you had something– Well Cam Ranh was a big place.” More concrete. Interviewer: “They had a big base so they had probably a little bit better developed as far as that kind of thing goes. Now in your notes you refer to this trip as the “Saigon milk run” Okay, that was after we came back from Japan, our first trip to Sasebo. We went to Saigon and we loaded cargo and of course we had no idea where we were going. Again on the ammunition ship all our operations were classified secret or higher, this was often a telephone call or an unclassified message saying “Go to such and such place and drop off–” You know, X amount of material and sometimes they’d change our orders after we got underway “Oh don’t take it here, take it there.” And– Which meant that because one of my collateral duties as postal officer I had to try to get the mail. Well if they change your next port, your mail’s here and you’re here and we’d go sometimes quite a long time between mail deliveries because of that and, you know mail is a real morale booster. When they pass mail call you can see, you know the guys get their mail and some of them would share their letters with other people, other people you’d see them take their one letter and they go off in the corner and read it, and read it, and read it over and over and over again, and some didn’t get any mail and those are the ones you really had to feel sorry for. �Chardoul, Paul When we augmented from 25 to 110 as we’re going through the records I’d say the majority of the new people were volunteers. The choice was the brig, bad conduct discharge or civilian jail, so he says “Oh I’ll go to Vietnam!” Interviewer: “So these are people who were in the Navy an in trouble so those are their options?” (1:15:52) So they’re sort of the dregs but, you know they pulled together beautifully on board ship. I was very pleased with how cohesive that ship was, it was a team, it was a real team. Interviewer: “Okay, but now were your college graduates part of that group or did you have those earlier because you mentioned–” They were some of the first ones on board, no they were not trouble makers. Interviewer: “They were regular recruits.” Yeah, as far as I know there’s just the three and they’re all my people so it was kind of neat. Interviewer: “Well they would’ve been closer to your age and had a little more experience.” Yeah, but you know because of the standing thing about no fraternization, you couldn’t go on liberty with them, and my radio man with the master’s degree from Caltech, he kind of lost it and he had some pretty nasty liberty because of it and he got broken twice. Interviewer: “Reduced in rank?” Mm-hmm but and then he went into the merchant marine, we communicate still and last time I talked to him was about two years ago and he’s retired now living in California. We’ve had six reunions, most of the officers and some of the enlisted and one of the– My corpsman because I �Chardoul, Paul also had the corpsman. He was an E6 corpsman, came on three of my trips, I take people on trips to different parts of the world now and he came on three of them with his wife, so that’s kind of neat. Interviewer: “Alright, kind wind out way back around, so you–” Back to the milk run. Interviewer: “The milk run. So is the idea that you load up supplies at Saigon and then distribute them other places?” (1:18:00) Yeah, when– To go up to Saigon you need a pilot, and you pick up the pilot at Vũng Tàu. It’s a fairly protected area and there’s always a few ships there and you go up one of two rivers to get to Saigon and you pass what’s called the RSSZ, the Rung Sat Special Zone, which is a free fire zone. If anything’s moving there it’s a target and so we had two old 50 caliber machine guns that we installed on the bridge wings, and got a chance to fire those, they didn’t work very well. They’d jam up all the time but you could take down a four inch tree at a couple hundred yards, I mean, mean weapons, really mean weapons and we had two small 30 caliber machine guns that were down below but we had that 40 millimeter cannon, open mount, one forward, one aft. When were were experimenting with the forward one we were at sea coming across, you know you drop a target, you drop a barrel in the water and then you shoot at it. They couldn’t hit it worth a darn, the gunfire director didn’t work so they’re basically trying to aim it and they never could, and then they found out that the cutout cams didn’t work. So if you’re tracking something and you’re firing it could take out the bridge, so the commanding officer said “Don’t give them any ammunition.” So we’re going up the rivers, you have this steel plate in front about that thick, not very thick, and the guys sitting there the loader, you know, the range guy and all that, five guys on the team. They’re open from the side, so if you don’t have any ammunition in there, why have those guys out there with the possibility of getting hit? But he said “Well because they don’t know that.” Oh yes they did, oh yes they did, they knew everything that we were doing. You know again going back to the ammunition ship, movements classified, go ashore and get some clothing made or something like that. “Oh yeah your next port is such and such.” They �Chardoul, Paul knew, and of course you go to, even– Because I spent time in the embassy and in Saigon you see a lot of the staff people were Vietnamese. I don’t know how well they were vetted and who they talked to, and what their communication– What their connections were and all that, there was a lot of that going on. Interviewer: “Alright, so when you’re out on these trips and you’re going up the river and so forth, would you take incoming fire periodically?” (1:21:35) Yeah, from Saigon you go back to– Interviewer: “Vũng Tàu?” Vũng Tàu, drop that pilot, pick up that pilot for the Mekong and then go up one of three– Because the Mekong is a delta, and you go up one of the three entrances that were navigable and the pilot would take you up there, because I was the only person that spoke French on board ship, and the pilot spoke either Vietnamese or French, but not English. We would sit on the deck of the pilot house– I remember there are two levels, there’s where the guy steered from and then one level above is the pilot house, and the pilot house had a canted glass like this all the way around and you got to it by going up a ladder on the outside of the ship and we took the glass out in case because bullets would come through, you could hear them going through and so we’d sit on the deck and he had these old French Army maps from ‘54 and he’d– “Okay,” In French “When you get to this snag come left to–” Such and such, you know because they knew where the sandbars were and where all the stuff floating down the river was and all that and so we’d, you know, do that if we’re taking any incoming fire. One time we were going up and all of a sudden the firing stopped and I thought, I said “Hey Paul, come here.” So I crawled to the back– The doorway was in the back of the pilot house, and we looked out and there’s this freighter going by us with a big French flag on it, and I said “Why aren’t they shooting?” “Oh, because they paid their taxes.” And I said “Aren’t we here because of them?” That’s when I started saying “Hmmm, maybe there’s something wrong with this war.” You know, but luckily no one ever got hit. We had bullet holes on the ship and on one of our stops because sometimes we had difficulty moving stuff around on board ship, I was– We were on the beach, I don’t remember �Chardoul, Paul where it was, where one of the officers called up, I was on the bridge because you have to have somebody on the bridge when you’re on the beach and he said– This is about, oh maybe 11 o’clock at night and of course remember sunset, dark, sunrise, light. There’s no long dusk or dawn, it's one or the other and because we’re, you know, not that far away from the equator it’s pretty much even day and night. I got this call on my phone and he said “I’ve got a crawler crane, we’re bringing it on board.” I said “What do you mean?” “Well it’s coming aboard now.” And clank clank clank clank, and brought in on board and it– Army crane just sitting there they found it out– It in fact did, you know they could start it, bring it on, lowered the boom on it and put it on the main deck. Painted it haze gray, put some fake numbers on it, and then on the cab put a great big target, and that target was full of holes. So they were shooting at that thing but again nobody got hurt, we did lose one man, fell over the side and that was kind of tragic. He was a non-rated seaman on the deck force and the pilot was getting ready to leave the ship we had just come back from Saigon, and he was gonna get on the pilot boat and I said “Captain pilot I have your accommodation ladder on the starboard side.” He said “Oh no, I always go off on the port side.” And I said “It’ll take me three hours to get that re-rigged on the port side.” Well he said “Pilot’s boat’s coming, just put a Jacob’s ladder over the side.” You know Jacob's ladder. Interviewer: “Explain that for the–” (1:26:58) Okay, Jacob’s ladder is metal rungs on, like a chain link sides and it rolls up and you just drop it. So there’s some stanchions they hooked it to and dropped it over, and the seaman dropped it over and when they went down it twisted. So he reached over to undo it and the railing broke, he fell in. I’m watching him go in “Left full rudder all stop! Put a boat in the water sound seven short blasts in the ships whistle, hoist oscar flag.” You know that all, and then the commanding officer said “Uhhh, I’ve got it.” So I turned to the quartermaster who has his quartermaster logs and “Write down everything he said.” “Right full rudder, no wait– Left, no wait– All engines– I had– Where are your engines?” He’s writing it all down. We never did get him, we were in Can Tho, which is on the Bassac river, got a message “Somebody washed ashore, do you wanna identify the body?” So I had to get some classified material in Saigon, so I told Skippers I’d go and I said I need to take my corpsman with me to identify the body and I need to take my postal clerk with me to find where our mail is. So we got a flight from Can Tho to Saigon, Tan Son Nhut Air Base �Chardoul, Paul and it’s pouring rain. I mean you’ve never been in a tropical rain, it’s degrading it just melts you, and we got off and there’s all this metal sheeting on the runway or the, you know the tarmac as we call it, and I looked around and I saw all these orange bags of mail just sitting out there in the rain. I looked at my postal clerk and said “Think one of those is ours?” He said “I don’t know.” “Go look.” So he went to look and then “I’ve gotta go to Saigon.” Or get into Saigon and it’s, you know it’s a few miles in. So we got a ride into Saigon and I went to three morgues, couldn’t find it, finally tried to call a few other morgues and, you know nothing happened. Finally someone said, “There’s a body at Tan Son Nhut, but you can’t go because it’s dark.” You have to– You can’t– You know nothing is flying. So I went around, looked around for a hotel, here we are in downtown Saigon, “Metropole Hotel.” I said “I’ve heard of that.” That’s where all the news correspondents were. So we walked in and I said “I’d like a room for three guys.” And they said “That’ll be $75” Or– I can’t remember, I think that was about the amount, in military pay certificates MPCs. I reached for my wallet, I had a $5 MPC, I dug down deeper in my wallet, I found a $20 greenback, I said “This is all I got.” I got change back, you know where that money went, black market just like that. So we had this big beautiful corner room and it was on the seventh floor and it was– Then we went up to the restaurant, it was on the eighth or ninth floor, whatever it was, and we watched the mortar fire in the distance and had a couple drinks. You know I could afford to be– My two guys had no money at all, and to fly from Can Tho to Saigon you’re supposed to have survival knife, and brain bucket, and you know all these other things, didn’t have any of that stuff, had our uniform on. So went out to Tan Son Nhut the next day and found a body– Found the morgue and the guy said “You don’t want to see it.” And I said “That’s what I’m here for.” So he opened up the cabinet and our sailor that fell in was an Italian kid who had a full beard and a lot of hair, full body hair. (1:32:05) He was all bloated, skin had turned green with blood oozing out, crabs had gotten to his face, couldn’t recognize him. I had the corpsman come in to check his, you know maybe to see his teeth or something, and he threw up. Wrap them up and send them home, that’s all we could do. We found some mail, I did my run to the, you know I got my computer stuff– Or crypto stuff, and then we went back, tried to get a flight back and there was an Army major who’s also trying to get a flight to Can Tho. So he said “Follow me and we’re gonna get one together.” I said “Okay.” So I found out there was a helicopter going to fly someplace and he said “I’ll take that helicopter.” And then this guy said “No sir, this helicopter– White Knight.” And he said “Good, I’m a White Knight, I’m taking the �Chardoul, Paul helicopter.” And so he said “Well okay.” “And this lieutenant here– Called Lieutenant JG, is the commanding officer of a ship he’s gotta get underway.” I wasn’t but what did the E2 know. So we got on– Or we’re getting on and he says “Oh by the way, I’m bringing my counterpart with me.” He says “No, no Vietnamese.” He says “Where I go, he goes, oh and he’s got two chickens.” Two live chickens in a bag. So we got on this helicopter, it was a huey, they’re so noisy, they gave me earplugs but we made one firing run. I got to see what an M-60 can do, this is a nasty weapon and very noisy, we made a circle and he did his run and then we went back to Can Tho and then I got a ride from there back to the ship. Interviewer: “Alright, I’m kind of looking at your entry now does that– Do you go back, from that mission, now do you go back to Taiwan or Japan?” Went back to Japan, yeah, again stopping in Taiwan. One time we were there overnight and got a chance to go to the American embassy in Taipei which is kind of neat because– First of all the road– I have to get back there that’s a beautiful country, just beautiful, but it was a mountainous road getting up to Taipei and, you know took a cab up. It was some kind of special celebration so they had two for one drinks, they were a nickel instead of a dime, 20 cents I was out of the world but again one time we made– Our stop was so quick we never even came to a complete stop, they just loaded one bag of something on board and we kept on going, broken voyage. I feel that diplomatic history, I know that very well. Interviewer: “Alright, you got here an entry in your itinerary that refers to “milk run turns sour” and that’s sort of you following the trip where you had to find the missing sailor for the next thing and then before the final milk run. So it’s like late July, is Bến Tre is that part of that–” What? Interviewer: “Got your list of things there, our cheat sheet.” �Chardoul, Paul It was just– We just– It was, well one thing– The same thing over and over again and– This came undone here, and our food supply was bad, we ate canned hamburger for two months and there’s only so many things you can do with canned hamburger. Powdered milk, they never really quite got it all so you drink it and get a lump. No vegetables, the only thing we did have we had a good bake shop and we could trade for other things, once in a while for vegetables or water because we were on water hours (1:37:33) You can make water out in the ocean with your condensers– Evaporators excuse me, but you can’t make it on river water and so if you were on water hours sometimes they’d have– They’d turn on the water for two hours every other day. Well if you just happened to have watch you missed it and you know when the bulkhead on board ship are so hot you can’t touch them, no air conditioning, a little smelly and remember I told you earlier that our alleged barber became the ship’s laundryman? Two days after we got underway the laundry mysteriously broke and we couldn’t get any spare parts. So we all had to do our own laundry and so you’d wash your clothes with you in the shower, when we had showers and so when we come out of the Mekong first thing I do is I aim for the nearest cloud, get out to sea of course they’re getting ready to start the evaporators and pass the word “Showers are now being held on the main deck, bring your towel and your soap.” You know, and of course then it was all guys you could do it, not a problem. Morale was pretty bad, we had the chance to do what are called in reps, I was used to underway reps, you know called un reps. In rep is where you come alongside– There’s small supply ships, in places like Cam Ranh, Vũng Tàu, where you could sidle up to another ship and you could pass stuff over. Our supply officer didn’t want to do it because he didn’t know how, and we had a storekeeper who kept pulling his hair out and he’d say “Sir please we can do it, we can do it!” “No, no, no, no, we can’t do it.” And he’s come up with some fake regulation. I’d check it out and it didn’t exist, we’d called him the ghost he disappeared, you know. “John!” He’s gone, but John and I decided we were gonna grow beards and we got permission for the enlisted people to grow beards and the supply officers and I said “Let’s grow beards.” So we did this going up to Japan the first time so we both grew pretty good sized beards and because I had the mobile marine phone connection I was fairly well liked on board ship, and the barber would do my– Underneath here, you know for– So it looked decent, nice and trimmed, and the day before we got to Japan the commanding officer realized the morale was in pretty bad shape and so he wanted to take a picture of all the guys with beards. So John and I shaved and we went from a pretty dark thing to just white and because he had no hair �Chardoul, Paul on his head he’d always say “Doesn’t that beard itch?” And you know the first couple weeks it does itch but you’d “No, no it’s fine.” Anyway that was the one morale thing we had on board ship. Interviewer: “Alright, now you’ve got some notes here relating to a final milk run, sort of the last thing you do. Okay, can you talk about that?” You mean going back up the river? Yeah we went to a little town just north of Can Tho called Binh Thuy, and there was a small U.S Air Force detachment teaching Vietnamese Air Force how to fly the A-1. Well the A-1 is not an Air Force plane so there’s some Navy people, teaching the Air Force, so they can teach the– You figure that one out, and the supplies that we dropped off there were also for a Vietnamese Special Forces camp and the person accepting the goods was a dai uy, a captain, a Vietnamese captain and you know I was talking to them once and I said “You know, so tell me about you. How long you been here?” (1:43:00) He says “Oh a few months.” “Where were you before?” Silence. “Dai uy where were you?” “I was in jail.” “Why?” “Extortion.” So now we have millions of dollars of equipment and supplies going to some guy who’d just gotten out of jail from extortion. He had his family with him and we built– You know you have all kinds of extra lumber, we built him a nice little home there and shed where he can put stuff in. Even built a cooler for him so he could cool beer because 110 degree bombing bomb beer is horrible. It’s bad at 50 degrees but it’s horrible at 110 and so one time we pulled– I had to have a beer so I said “Dai uy pour me one please!” So poured it in a glass, put some ice in there, I’m drinking it, my corpsman came up and he said “Where’d that ice come from?” I looked in the river, I said “Oh shit.” And I did for the next ten years, I got some kind of disease. Yeah, when I was teaching at community college they scheduled my classes right across from the bathroom, I’d be teaching. “Excuse me!” Run across, yeah and that lasted ten years and it finally cleared out but, you know it was– It was not fun. Interviewer: “Alright, there’s a mention here of a Green Beret coming aboard?” Oh yeah, we were– Because when you’re on the river, it’s flowing okay. So we always had a guard up in front with big flashlights, anything that moved you shot at– In the water. We also �Chardoul, Paul had the ability to throw stun grenades out and, you know if somebody’s there and then periodically you turn the screws in case somebody’s trying to get on board, shift the stern. We installed lights right at water level, shining down they wouldn’t shine up you would see them, and all around the ship and we had small boats patrolling in the water and I had the watch once and I looked over the side and this rubber raft– Or rubber boat came alongside and guys came on board and “Wait a minute.” Well they wouldn’t sign the deck log, they said “We’re not here. We need some warm food.” So I hustled up a meal for them and got their clothes off and got them some clean clothes, but their stuff was pretty ratty, and they spent about four hours onboard ship, got back in their little boat and took off. We also had some SEALs come onboard, we had them stay overnight and again because they’re out here patrolling for us too. A matter of fact one time they came onboard, nobody knew they’d come on board, so that got a report going. We had a roving patrol, armed roving patrol, walking around the ship at odd times, you know just for that purpose. One time– Because it was a two day trip to get up to– What we do is we go up through Mekong to near the Cambodian border, and then cross over on a small, narrow canal, a little wider than this room, you know with branches overhanging, to the Bassac river and then down the Bassac to Can Tho or Binh Thuy and– So the first night– Because remember our speed is sometimes less than the flow of water, and we would drop anchor, and of course you drop anchor and you let it pay out, and we do it just before sunset. Sunset would come, get underway again, pick up the anchor, go a couple of clicks down, drop it again and then watch the firing behind us. They had zeroed in where they thought we were, we learned that one from another LST which had gotten his, and I mean some of those LSTs really got– They really got hit. (1:49:02) The reason I know this is because I decided to write a history of LSTs in Vietnam and I found 84 of them were involved, total of 84, and going all the way back to 1954 and the last LST actively involved was when the Americans mined Haiphong Harbor, you know to get the North Vietnamese back to the bargaining table and they would not do it until we de-mined the harbor. So they sent out a whole bunch of mine sweepers, they cleared a path and they said “We don’t trust you.” They took a newer LST, took everything off that had any weight on it, loaded the tank deck and the wing walls with fiberglass and then a small crew of like 10 or 12 people, and they ran it up and down a few times. So, you know– So from ‘64 to ‘75– Oh ‘54 to ‘75 they were there. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Yeah I think the Haiphong Harbor mining was late ‘72 because the peace agreement was early ‘73. So that would’ve been around the time of all that.” Yeah it was– The mining took like about 20 minutes, real quick, but it basically shut the harbor down. When I was stationed in Hawaii I suggested that they mine it and one of the intelligence officers would show me the T-pier in Haiphong. There’s a Canadian ship, a British ship, a French ship “Aren’t they allies?” Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean that was discussed really throughout the entire war time period and there are a lot of political and diplomatic reasons why you couldn’t do it, which was true of Vietnam generally for a lot of things. Okay, and we’re kind of getting toward the latter part here with your tour with the LST. So after that last milk run then how do things wind down with you and the ship and go on from there?” Okay then we went back to Japan and when we crossed the bar of the Mekong that last time– Normally we’d try to cross at high tide and I’d clear the fan tail because it’d be mud going all over, we hit bottom but we really hit bad and going up river you can feel the– Something was wrong, and what happened was both screws the blades were bent like that. So they’re going to be vibrating and it actually displaced where the shaft comes out to get to the screws, it had bent that which meant that water was getting in. Something called the Kingsbury thrust bearing and that supposedly is a totally watertight seal, it wasn’t. Water’s pouring into the ship and we’re, you know trying to de-water it all the time, plus some guys were down in the bilges chipping paint pshhh! They went through the bottom of the ship, you go through that many landings you’re just running off the bottom of the ship and so we decided we really needed some major, major repairs. So up to Japan and into the shipyard and we were there over a month replacing the shafts, and the screws, and putting new plates on the bottom of the ship and then they put teflon on them because it was anti-fouling and it was there that I left the ship. Interviewer: “Alright, now was this a scheduled relief or had you applied for other duty?” (1:54:05) �Chardoul, Paul Yeah, while we were in Vietnam I knew I was going to be short toured and I found out that my replacement was going through officer candidates, it was going to be a green ensign and I said “Make sure he goes to com school.” So that’s another two months, and the XO kept saying “Well, you know if he doesn’t come you’re staying on board.” “I don’t think so I think I gotta get off this ship.” And he suggested because I knew so much about what was going on that I would easily become the operations officer on another LST if I didn’t stay on that one and I said “I really want to get off– I need to get off active duty.” Or off sea duty. So I– Here you are trying to work with the detailer using mail and all the vagaries of late delivery and all that, but I contacted the detailer in Washington and I asked for duty at the com school in Newport. I got it, I said “Great! That’ll be kind of fun.” You know shore duty, I love Newport, that’s a great city and so then they said “Oh, but you have to extend 30 months.” Whoops. Okay now what, so I said “Well, okay I’m gonna go for the moon, I’d like to be the assistant fleet historian of the United States Pacific fleet.” And they created the billet and gave it to me, I had a master’s degree in history, I had a bachelor’s degree in history. I mean it was a perfect match and it just so happened that the historian on the Pacific fleet staff who was a commander was not getting along well with the admirals and when we got there we saw why. His history was terrible, it was just chronology it was like that sheet I gave you and it had– You know there’s no analysis, nothing in there. So he was responsible for writing the command history, now the command history because there are some 200 under commands, ship and shore commands that report to Pacific fleet headquarters, you take that input and you write your history from them and you just take that and add it, take that and add it, and nobody wrote decent command histories then they just– It was just a summary of what they had done. He also was responsible for a monthly summary report which was a, you know what works, what doesn’t work and when we got there in late September of 1966, both the new commander and me, we saw what he had done and I mean it had no validity at all, and so the commander who had written a couple best sellers, one of them is still in publication The Big E on the old enterprise, naval institute has been republishing it over and over again and he also won $64,000 on a $64,000 question because he had been teaching English at the University of Miami and so they recalled him to active duty, promised him that he’d get his fourth stripe and that he’d be back in flying status. Neither of which they lived up to and we decided we’d, you know redo everything. So we went back and rewrote the ‘63, the ‘64, and ‘65 histories and then did the ‘66 new one and got up to June of ‘67 when I left, and then I took over �Chardoul, Paul the monthly summary report. That was about seven months in arrears, well it had no validity you’re talking about something that happened that far back and it took me a couple months to get it up to speed but we went from a 12 page basically xerox thing with really poor pictures to a 48 page four color with a lot of analysis, and the first time I had it done the day after the end of the month, chopped through all the various offices because I did it as they needed to be done, and sent it off and copy number one went to Bobby Kennedy. Of course I kept asking “Does he have the clearance?” “Shh, don’t talk about it.” And there’re only like 22 copies made it was classified, as the history was, secret with top secret addenda. But we started bringing other people in to help. I knew nothing about bomb damage assessment, so I was at the BOQ bar and I saw this guy with wings on and I said “What are you doing?” “I’m waiting for my ship.” “When’s it coming in?” “I don’t know about four months.” “Got a job for you.” (2:00:40) So he did BDA for me, another guy who did gunfire support for me, another guy did supply. I basically coordinated and then did the analysis part and worked with the intelligence people and I was able to put together a good thing. We even took over the computer people on board the staff and the graphics people, had our own driver, had our own admin person who did, you know setting up all the whatever admin stuff we had. We went from a staff of two plus one typist, and by the way it’s Commander Stafford his handwriting was worse than mine, it was a round scrawl. His wife could read it, I could read it, and our yeoman could read it, that was about it, I should’ve brought in a couple of books that he wrote for me. So we went from the three of us to staff of over 100, people were already there, they’re not doing anything, got them busy and we got this thing done and it was– I felt good about that, we really accomplished a lot, and then when I left active duty I had to write a job description code. I was replaced by three civilians, each of whom had a GS rating higher than I was as Lieutenant GG, but we put in long hours I was used to that and that’s not untypical of uniformed services. Doing active duty for training in the Pentagon and you see all the civilians go at 4:30 and when do you leave? When the work’s done, eight, nine, ten o’clock you know. Interviewer: “Now you had mentioned before when we were not on camera earlier talking about an incident that I guess made it sound like you would attend regular briefings or other sessions that the admirals had or that kind of– That’s part of your job as well was to report that kind of thing?” �Chardoul, Paul Uh-huh because that’s how I got a lot of the information. Interviewer: “And you mention at one point getting yourself in trouble?” Okay, I was– I had read about several flyers who, by the way they’re naval aviators they’re not pilots, who had come near the island of Hainan, they were still in international air space but they were chased by some Chinese communists, mig-17s and they took off and went definitely into international waters. So when that carrier came back I got one of the pilots into my office and I interviewed him and he told me– Described the whole situation and I was writing about it later and I realized that I didn’t know what the tail marking was on a mig-17, so I called up the air intelligence officer in the intel center and I asked him and he said “Just a minute.” Click. And then the phone rang and it was the admiral– A guy who had just made rear admiral he’s “Come to my office!” And so I went up there and he wanted to know why I was dealing with classified material on an unclassified phone call and I asked him who we were keeping it from and he pulled three of my clearances right then but within two days one of the admirals– There were two admirals, one was commander in chief Pacific fleet the other was commander in chief Pacific area and then the vice admiral– Ramage, red ramage and Admiral Johnson the CINCPAC fleet wanted to know where I was and said “I pulled his clearances.” “Get him back.” So I got back in. (2:05:22) There is a very close staff and, you know even to the point where– I’d sometimes be walking in the corridor where the admirals were and Admiral Ramsey said “Hey Paul come on in!” And he said “Did I ever tell you about my ship?” And I said– You know he was a submarine commander in World War II who got the congressional medal of honor and he’d lay out his charts and show me how his boat had come up in the middle of a Japanese convoy and he and the quartermaster, just the two of them above shooting at these merchant ships and he was an interesting person. I used to swim for lunch at the pool instead of eating and he’s show up “Oh you can have my spot admiral I’m done.” And he would swim an hour and just go back and forth that was amazing. Well when the person I work for Commander Stafford retired shortly after I did he became the writer for the secretary of the Navy, Warner, and when secretary of the Navy became the bicentennial commision he followed him there. So he retired �Chardoul, Paul from that finally, fourth retirement and I visit him periodically, his name was Edward Peary Stafford his grandfather was Admiral Peary and he had all the memorabilia from the North Pole. Interviewer: “I’m not sure he ever made admiral but it’s a common–” P-E-A-R-Y Interviewer: “Yeah Robert Peary he’s famous, I mean he’s commodore.” Commodore. Interviewer: “Probably, or commander.” He never made admiral and you know he– So I got a lot of good information from him. Interviewer: “Alright, so when do you then go off of active duty?” I got off in late June of 1967. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what do you do once you’re out?” Well while I was there I took the graduate record exam finally, even though I had a master’s before I didn’t take the GRE before and I intended to go back to college and work on a doctorate in history and they tried to keep me there. They tried to keep me on staff and have me augment from Naval Reserve to regular Navy, and of course once you go regular Navy they’ve got you and I wanted to stay in the reserves. So they offered me the possibility of becoming the military representative for the Mariana’s Trust territory but I wasn’t married, and they said “If you’re not married, you’re not going because all you’re going to do is drink.” And, you know we don’t want that. (2:09:00) I had met a young lady the weekend before we had left for Vietnam, I’d come home to Flint, my parents said “Oh good, you can go to–” this person’s wedding and I said “Uh, uniform.” “Wear your uniform.” This is in late January and so I was in blue and so I went to the �Chardoul, Paul wedding, the ceremony– Or the reception afterwards I saw this one woman and I said “I like her.” So I asked her to dance and we had the last dance and I– Wow, that’s all I could think of when I was in Vietnam, I got to get back to her. So I did, when I got back, I found an excuse to go to Milwaukee where she lived and met her again and took my parents with me. So it’d look– Cause my dad had a roommate in college from outside of Milwaukee so we visited with him and then, you know and then saw her and I said “Can we write when I’m in Hawaii?” and she said yeah. So about once a week letters go back and forth and my yeoman committed– Because she didn’t put perfume on but he recognized the return address and he let me know “She’s written to you again.” It’s funny because I had one top secret safe and I set the combination and nobody else had that combination, one day I walked in and here’s Yeoman Corley opening up my safe and I said “Uhhh.” He said “24-19-63” 24-19 63rd street, he said “I figured that one out and better change it.” So I did and so I found out when her birthday was and I sent her a flower lei, that did it. I got home and went to her house, she was living with her parents, and spent two days there over the 4th of July weekend. She came to Flint, stayed with our parents, separate bedroom and Monday morning we take her to the airport. Eating breakfast and I announced to my parents that we’re getting married, and they said “When?” I said “December.” My dad said “No.” He was a graduate engineer, he had two degrees in engineering and he said “You’re a typical, practical person.” He said “No, that’s all you’re gonna think of when you’re back in grad school you’re gonna be spending every weekend in Milwaukee, do it now.” So before she got off the plane in Milwaukee, there was a direct flight from Flint to Milwaukee then, her brother had arranged for church and place for reception– I love that guy, and we got married 2nd of September, and you know so we did it and been happy ever since. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you go and complete the doctorate or what happened after you get married, because you went to Michigan State again?” Yeah, I enrolled there and did all my course work, language exams, prelims, wrote the dissertation four times– Typewriter, make a change, change everything. They kept changing the committee on me, finally in fall of ‘69 I got called from a friend to teach at Grand Rapids Junior College, I said “One semester.” And of course 30 years later I retired and so I never finished the dissertation. �Chardoul, Paul Interviewer: “Alright, so you did– That became your job but you stayed in the naval reserves though.” Mhmm. Interviewer: “Okay and talk a little bit about what you did with them.” (2:14:00) Okay, well again it started in Lansing again and when we moved to Grand Rapids fall of ‘69 I joined in Grand Rapids and at that time there still was one night a week, or one– Yeah one night, you know, yeah one night a week and so I used to get a haircut every Tuesday night for the Wednesday meeting and then shortly thereafter we went to weekend drills, which are much more productive and I had an early command as head of the Naval Reserves Officer School where I taught courses like oceanography and one course in international relations, and then most of the other units I was involved in were shipboard units and then I made lieutenant and then lieutenant commander and when I made commander the number of pay billets just disappears. It’s a pyramid like that and so I went I think seven years without a pay billet. Interviewer: “What does that mean, a pay billet?” It means you get paid for your duty on the weekend that you’re there, one weekend a month, it amounted to probably $200 a month maybe $250 and for two years there were three of us who drilled with two units, two different units or we’d be thrown out, you know it was one of those things and then you sort of picked up whatever you could wherever. I became commanding officer of a shipboard repair facility in Muskegon and I stole some of Grand Rapids people, took them with me and that was interesting. I had a billet where I was going around the state recruiting for basically submarine officers, going to colleges. I had one– Another non-pay job where I was the coordinator of retention for the state of Michigan. I’d go to reserve centers and just watch, ask questions, and then go meet with the captain at Great Lakes and say “Fire that guy, move this guy over here.” So I showed up and he’d “Oh my god Commander Chardoul’s here!” And it was that time I saw a unit outside Detroit, there’s a small unit and I said “They had �Chardoul, Paul some high power people in there but they weren’t doing anything.” So I went back to the captain and I said “I’d like to be in that unit.” He said “I can put you in there as admin officer.” I said “Okay.” So we reorganized the unit and it became a headquarters unit for naval forces, Europe which is their four star command in London and we controlled 18 reserve units all around the United States and we ran an exercise in London the last week of October, first week of November, that I wrote the exercise report and did that for four years. Which is a nice bill I also had one other command bill and I was commanding officer of a brand new unit put together of a Spruance-class destroyer. So I had to go to destroyer school, you know learn how they operate and that was an interesting thing. The ship was based in Charleston, got a chance to get to Charleston a few times and ride that ship. Interviewer: “And so what you’re doing with a lot of these units is you’re there to augment, or replace or whatever, if something is called into duty then the reserves are called into help, so the extra manpower there. Alright so that’s the U.S.S Nicholson the destroyer?” (2:19:15) That’s the Nicholson. Interviewer: “Okay so that’s on the list here. Alright, and then I guess you– And then when do you actually retire out of the Navy?” When I was attached to this unit in Detroit, we moved from Southfield to east Detroit and it was just taking too much of my time. I was averaging 60 hours a month because I was doing three active duties for training a year, and one of them was three weeks long, the one in London which wasn’t all bad but I did– I ran an exercise in New Orleans one time, I went to a school in San Diego several different time and, you know as admin officer of this unit and then eventually XO, you know you’d drill one weekend a month but then I’d have a second drill halfway through in Lansing and I’d have all the officers come in from various places. I had one officer who flew in from Hawaii, he was a United pilot he deadhead in, you know but he wanted the billet so badly and it was the intel billet and so that worked out well for him but he couldn’t come in to that second meeting. So when we wrote the exercise– Or I wrote the exercise one of the things I did �Chardoul, Paul was, rather than keep doing the same thing every day over and over again like a lot of war game things are, at two o’clock in the afternoon London time I’d have a message go out that changed the situation a little bit and we’re running this thing, I told the intel officer “Okay, send it.” He sent it about ten minutes later the phone rang “It’s for you.” “Hello? Yes sir!” It was the force sergeant he said “Do you know where I am?” “Yes sir you’re in Naples.” “No I’m flying, I’m going to Brussels.” I called a meeting of the military ministers. “Stop the problem.” “Yes sir.” So we stopped the problem. I had found a situation where shifting from Navy control to NATO control, there was a gap where something could go wrong and there wouldn’t be anybody there to take care of it and that’s what that message was for and the admiral said “You either get a letter of accommodation or you’re fired.” I got the letter of accommodation. Interviewer: “Good. Alright, now you’ve also got something in your notes here about teaching at the naval war college.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Did you do that while you were still in the reserves or was that afterwards?” (2:22:35) Yeah, I did that three summers back in the mid ‘70s and I found out that there was this possibility of doing that and of course naval war college is right on the bay– Head of the bay in Newport “Yes!” So it was a course– Or actually a whole curriculum and strategy and policy, and so there are about six courses. There was five of us who designed it and then we also taught some residents there for part of a short course and then I taught distance learning component of that strategy and policy to naval officers basically all over the country. When you sign up for naval war college they send you a couple books and so we, you know to do this we followed what the resident policy– Or resident curriculum was except made some modifications and then you know starting with Thucydides, the Peloponnesian War and work our way through– Up and through the second world war and then one guy and I decided we were gonna do something a little different. So we created a whole curriculum using non-western sources, which is a lot of fun doing. I think that got put on a shelf and never got used but anyway I did that for three �Chardoul, Paul summers– Or parts of three summers but while I was there for one of them I even got in a movie. Yeah and– Oh what movie was it, oh my god I shouldn’t have said this. The Great Gatsby, the first time it was done and so I was an extra and they were doing the casting at Salve Regina College. I used to date a girl there so I knew the layout fairly well, and the main entrance was closed so I went around back. Got in and walked up to the desk where they were there and said “I’m here for the Naval War College.” “Oh! Oh, here!” They had no idea what was going on but they said “Okay, you’re gonna be one of the fun seekers.” So they gave me a tuxedo to wear and I had to take off my watch because they didn’t wear watches in the 20s and I always had a short haircut so that worked okay they put some grease on it, and it was a foggy night. We started about three o’clock in the afternoon, it was really foggy, and we’re in this extras bus just sitting there waiting to be called. “Okay we need two waitresses.” So these women in waitress costumes went off. I was standing outside of the door of the bus because it was warm on the bus and I said “You know–” To the guy that was there “If your hair was shorter you’d look like Mia Farrow.” And he said “I’m her brother John.” I said “Oh.” He said “I’m here to keep the local Newport people out because they treated our family terribly.” So we started talking, he found out that my field of interest was the 1920s he said “Perfect match, I’m gonna get you in.” I said “Okay.” (2:26:55) So he got me in one scene that we redid probably 15 times, and the scene itself lasted about a minute but the prep time for each time, you know. So it was almost all night and they teamed me up with this woman who was living and Newport and, you know. You ever– There are a couple versions of Great Gatsby but this one was done in the 19th century. Interviewer: “Oh the Robert Redford one right, yeah.” We walked across this beautiful parquet floor and then another couple came up and then waiters came up with a tray of canopies. “Do not eat them!” Because they’re all sprayed, you know and we’re drinking grape juice but my friend had a hip flask and so she was dousing ours up pretty good and then Redford would walk in and, you know “Oh!” You know and it was– Again I don’t know how many times they did this, finally– You know they never did shoot that one, but they had me do another thing where they had me with an English teacher and they had a mic over us, and they had us walk through a crowded room, this big ball room, just talking. Everybody else is saying “Mumble, mumble, mumble, mumble.” That’s what they’re saying “Mumble, mumble.” �Chardoul, Paul Yeah, and you can talk– I said “Can we talk about expatriates?” “Don’t mention Fitzgerald.” “Okay. What are we gonna talk about?” Well we talked about Gertrude Stein and we talked about Hemmingway, you know it was kind of interesting and this mic followed us along, and in one of the scenes you can actually hear us for about that long. The scene that we spent most of the night on disappeared entirely, they shot that again in England, but I got $20 and a sandwich and I met Robert Redford and I’m taller than he is. I was then, I’ve got some back problems and I’ve lost about two and half inches. Interviewer: “Alright, I think we’ve kind of gotten through your career pretty well here, you’ve done a variety of other things in the community and so forth but this is primarily sort of your military story here. So I guess to wind up if you wanted to sort of sum things up here a little bit, how do you think your time in the service affected you or what have you taken out of it?” Probably my ability to deal with people, I think would be very important. My understanding of technology, I had almost no knowledge at all, I was the– Besides teaching a full load at community college I also was the liaison with the technology staff and our faculty for technology. I got a grant from National Science Foundation, a million and a half dollar grant for technology at the college that I distributed to various departments and I had the first computer on the desk of faculty. (2:30:58) Unfortunately I didn’t know how to say no so I was in a lot of teams and committees where I was often the only faculty member and a lot of it dealt with technology. After I retired from teaching in ‘99 I became the coordinator of distance learning at the college so when the college went to, you know off campus like everybody else did there are some faculty that are trained– Appropriately trained, most of the ones that I had trained have retired but there’s still some left over and a lot of the groundwork that I had done with the team that I had created was still functioning. So that made it a lot easier and then I’m the commanding– CEO of breakfast club of Grand Rapids and they’re in the 19th century, one of my former students became a member and I made him my COO and we computerized that so that when we went to Zoom we were ready. Everybody had, you know I mean we were ready and it– Yeah it just, you know so technology is a really important part of it and not just having it but �Chardoul, Paul understanding that it can go down and know what you can do to fix it and how you can make things better and not just technology for the sake of technology. Interviewer: “Alright, I guess the other thing here to note is that you’ve done a lot of volunteer work with the Grand Rapids Art Museum.” Oh I also set up a distance learning program for them too. Interviewer: “Alright, the whole thing makes for a pretty remarkable story so I’d just like to thank you for taking the time to share it with us today.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChardoulP2379V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chardoul, Paul N. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-10 Title A name given to the resource Chardoul, Paul (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Paul Chardoul was born in Waterloo, Iowa on August 17th, 1939. He graduated high school in 1957. He earned his bachelor's degree in history from the University of Michigan and his master's degree from Michigan State University in 1964. While writing his master’s thesis, he joined the Naval Reserves as a seaman recruit and attended training in Lansing. He spent six months in the Reserves during which he took the officer battery test, scored well, and went to officer candidate school in Newport, Rhode Island, in 1964. For his first assignment, he was based in Norfolk, Virginia on the ammunition ship U.S.S. Diamond Head. He did several cruises into the North Atlantic Ocean, Caribbean Sea, and Mediterranean Sea. He returned to the U.S. in December 1965, and was transferred to the U.S.S. Chesterfield County, an LST (tank landing ship) based in Little Creek, Virginia. He departed for Chu Lai, Vietnam on February 11th, 1966. On the way he stopped in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii and Subic Bay, Philippines. In Vietnam, his job was to load cargo on trips called “milk runs” and drop it off at various places, such as Phan Rang, Nha Trang, and Cam Ranh Bay. He also traveled to Sasebo, Japan several times for ship repairs, stopping in Taiwan on the way. After the final milk run, he went back to Japan and spent over a month repairing the ship because it had gotten severely damaged. Chardoul then left sea duty and became the assistant fleet historian of the United States Pacific fleet in September 1966. He got off active duty in June 1967. He returned to Michigan State to begin working on a doctorate in history, but in 1969 his friend asked him to teach at Grand Rapids Junior College, so he began working there and never finished the dissertation. While working as a professor, he stayed in the Naval Reserves, where he taught courses at the Naval Reserves Officer School and the Naval War College, served as the commanding officer of a shipboard repair facility in Muskegon, went to colleges across the state to recruit for the Navy, worked as the coordinator of retention for the state of Michigan, and reorganized a small unit outside Detroit to become a headquarters unit for Naval Forces Europe. Chardoul also served as the commanding officer for a unit based in Charleston, South Carolina on the Spruance-class destroyer U.S.S. Nicholson. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/023a954d64c51af65a6ee6f7f4b2c258.mp4 beaf1c53f1187d8a6ea2b459feb3d994 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4c09bbe501aa86699e85beeadec43078.pdf 0b9ecb99a57c017981e705cf6dcb56d2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Dale Brown Interview Length: (40:51) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're talking today with Dale Brown of St. Johns, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Dale can you start us off with some background and to begin with where and when were you born? I was born in Lansing, Michigan on February 26, 1948. Interviewer: Okay did you grow up in Lansing or did you move around? I did, I grew up in Lansing, pretty much stayed in that area all my life. Interviewer: Okay and what did your family do for a living while you were growing up? My father was a plasterer and my mother was a homemaker there was, she had to be… there was fourteen of us kids. Interviewer: Wow. And where were you in that sequence? I was the third oldest. Interviewer: Okay and then when did you finish high school? I finished high school in 1966, graduated from Grand Ledge High School. (1:00) Interviewer: Okay and what did you want to do then once you got out of high school? Well, I went to work with General Motors, and I didn't really have a lot of plans at that time but the- the Vietnam War was going, had been going for quite some time. And I thought that I might be called to duty there, was on, in the draft and I chose to enlist in the Air Force to- to get out ofout of Lansing and get, well do what I needed to do. �Interviewer: Okay. Which was serve the country. Interviewer: Alright now why did you choose the Air Force rather than another branch? I thought if I was gonna be going to Vietnam I’d rather have a choice of where I was gonna to be, rather than being put out on a point somewhere and exposed to constant fire, I wanted to choose my- my path. Interviewer: Okay so you were just kind of aware enough of what was going on in Vietnam to have that as kind of conscious decision. Okay now at the time you were enlisting in the Air Force were they very picky about who they took, or did you just show up and get in? (2:08) Yeah, you had to take tests and qualify and I- I managed to get in there, I know now today it’s even more strict, it's very difficult to get in. I- I wouldn't have got in based on today's standards. Interviewer: Alright because it was a- a kind of a popular decision to make and there were people who were trying to get in at certain points and couldn't. Yeah. Interviewer: And you're a little, so when do you actually enlist then? I enlisted in May of ’67. Interviewer: Okay and then having done that, what, where do they send you first for training? First went to Lackland Air Force Base, that's where they train all the recruits for the Air Force pretty much. Interviewer: That’s San Antonio, Texas? San Antonio. �Interviewer: Alright. That’s my first duty station. Interviewer: Okay now what- what did the training actually consist of? A lot of physical training, mental training, and educational training, learning what you're supposed to be doing within the Air Force and how you fit in there. But the main thing was the physical and the, to get you in with the unit, to get you acclimated to that. (3:19) Interviewer: Okay and how much for spit and polish stuff was there? Quite a bit, a lot- a lot of situations where we had to be very, very clean, we had inspections and the sergeants wasn't happy with the things so he- he made us do the whole floor over again and we, I think we used toilet paper to buff it. He was pretty- pretty adamant that the place was a filthy mess, it really wasn't but that's what they did. Interviewer: Okay, now to what extent did you understand what they were doing at the time? I just knew I was there to do what they told me to do, and that's what I tried to do. Interviewer: Okay and how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to being in the military? (4:11) It was- it was a little problematic because I, you know I just lost my father a year before and so I didn't really, I just knew that I was gonna, I was gonna do this whatever it took. I saw too many guys that weren't able to- to do it and I knew that I could do that. Interviewer: Alright now among the- the class or the group that you're training with what proportion of them finished on schedule? I think probably ninety percent. �Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, it was about ten percent that- that fell out for various reasons. Interviewer: Okay and were you in pretty good shape physically when you went in? Actually I was- I was kind of light but I was in better shape when I got out of basic training. Interviewer: Alright and how long did the basic training last? I think, I believe it was about six weeks. (5:06) Interviewer: Okay now at that point what do they do with you? I went home, came home for a leave and then had to report to my next duty station which was my technical school. Interviewer: Okay. For advanced training. Interviewer: And was that back at Lackland or somewhere else? That was, I went to Chanute Air Force Base in Illinois. Interviewer: Okay and what spec- kind of training did you get there? I got training on on B-52s and KC-135 aircraft, hydraulic training. I was trained in hydraulics. Interviewer: Okay and can you describe for layout because most people know what a B-52 is, but what's a KC-135? That's a, it's like a Boeing 707 but it's a- it's a refueling plane and it's like a big flying gas station. Interviewer: Right okay and about how long do you stay there? I’m trying to think, I think I was there a couple months. Interviewer: Okay now when you're there do you just stay on the base or is there? Yes. �Interviewer: Okay. I was able to come home on weekends sometimes. (6:06) Interviewer: But that was, that's like Rantoul, Illinois. Yes. Interviewer: So, there's not a whole lot there? Nope not a whole lot at least I was aware of, but I was always the guy that wanted to be home, you know whenever I could because the family was important. Interviewer: Yeah, alright so that, you go through that and then what kind of guys were training along with you? Did you notice much about them or where they were from or anything else? I didn't really get to a whole lot of involvement, I just, you know we just partnered up and- and worked together and I don't, I didn't really get a chance to talk a lot with them about their various backgrounds and stuff because we were all focused on our training and getting through it and getting out of there. Interviewer: Okay and in the basic and in the technical training here was pretty much everybody white or did you have some black guys or Hispanics in the mix? Yeah, we had, yeah some of everything, yeah. Interviewer: Okay alright so you get through this next stage and that, did they send you for further training or do they go to a base now? Then they shipped me to K.I. Sawyer Air Base. Interviewer: Okay and where is that? That’s in Marquette, Michigan or up in that area. �Interviewer: Okay Actually Gwinn, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay and was that a Strategic Air Command then or? (7:14) Yes, it was, yep. Interviewer: Okay and now do you actually get to apply your training once you get there? Absolutely yeah. Interviewer: So, what was going on while you were there? That is a, was a nuclear base, so they had nuclear ready B-52s all the time. We were doing, they were doing a lot of takeoffs and landings and different things that they were doing, and we were responsible for the maintenance of the hydraulic systems and that's what we did. It- it got a little bit difficult in the wintertime because cold weather affects hydraulics pretty much and Lake Superior and if you go out and recycle the component, why you generally would warm it up and things would go away, so, but that being on alert, a Strategic Air Command Base which was always ready for nuclear war. They didn't mess around with that stuff if- if you couldn't stop the leak, they would pull it off and put another one on. (8:15) Interviewer: Alright now during what time frame were you at Sawyer? I was there in ‘67 until, actually ‘67 until I went to Vietnam but there was a- a short period in there, in 1968, September I went to- to Guam to support the Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay. And I worked P52 models over there, they were D models, we had H models I think at our base, K.I. Sawyer. �Interviewer: Okay and was there any practical difference in terms of what you had to do with them? Same thing as maintenance it was just, it was the intensity of it all you know working twelve hours a day and around the clock, they were doing around the clock bombings. Interviewer: Alright now while you're at- at Sawyer there, you get there in- in ‘67 and so forth you go on and before they send you over to- to Guam for that spell, how much attention did you pay to sort of news of the war and that kind of thing or did you just focus on your job? I didn't think much about Vietnam at that time because I was you know focused on where I was at and what I was doing there. (9:18) Interviewer: Was there an expectation that you'd eventually rotate over to Vietnam or did you think you were gonna stay in Michigan the whole time? I- I- I wasn't sure, when I went to Guam, I thought you know I was, that was gonna be my duty and so I came back from there and the night I got back the guys told me that I had orders from Vietnam, it was kind of a shock. I’d kind of like catch my breath there, you know. Interviewer: Right. Just come back from overseas duty. Interviewer: Okay tell me a little bit about sort of what- what your daily life or routine was like while you're at Sawyer? Reporting to duty every morning and doing whatever hydraulic repair work needed to be done, if there was components that needed to be rebuilt, we'd rebuild them. And if there's components that need to be taken care of on the aircraft, we go out and change them, a lot of brakes and the �B-52 had a hydraulic controlled fire pack for the rear gun, and we had to maintain that also. But all the components of the hydraulic systems on the aircraft was a daily thing and that's what we usually did. (10:22) Interviewer: And was this largely a day job for you or were there night shifts at times? No, I worked just strictly days there. Interviewer: Okay now during the time you were there did they ever have any kind of alerts or things where they kind of change the routine on you either as a drill or? They- they had alerts yeah. Interviewer: Okay. They call those quite frequently and you had to be there, you couldn't be somewhere else and I- I messed that up once, you know. I came home on a weekend and they called me, told me there’s an alert and I didn't get back and I got- got in a little bit of trouble with that. Interviewer: Well, it takes a little while to get up to Marquette from… Yeah. Interviewer: …Lansing so yeah that could certainly happen, but I mean that you know because they can't announce ahead of time that they're gonna have an alert or whatever so. No, no I- I had stand by duty that weekend and I knew it, but I came home, and they called the alert, so I didn't get back. (11:17) Interviewer: Alright and so what’s- what's the penalty for that? Well it could have been court martial. Interviewer: Okay. �But my sergeant was understanding, he knew that at that time I was headed for Vietnam. So, he, I think he kind of gave me a break. Interviewer: Okay so that was late enough, and I guess that's the old question what are they going to do? Send me to Vietnam? Yeah. Interviewer: And you’re already going. Alright yeah, what- what kind of people were- were on the crew you were working with? You had a lot of lifers or were they mostly young guys like you? In- in, at K.I. Sawyer? Interviewer: Yeah. Mostly young guys we had long-term guys that were the shop chiefs, you know they were in charge of that. So, there's probably two or three of the higher-ranking NCOs. Interviewer: Okay but then… Mostly it was us younger guys who were doing all the work. Interviewer: Okay now the orders for Vietnam came was that normally just individually? They weren't sending groups together. (12:13) Right. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, it came individual. Interviewer: Okay so you got your call and now how do, what's the process for now getting you out to Vietnam, right. So, let's talk a little bit more about Guam first. You get sent out to Guam, what was that base like and what was your life like while you were there? �It was tropical and I had, I remember going down the side of the, we’d go down the side of the mountain when we had a little time off, take a bus down to the side of the mountain to the beach and we could enjoy the beach and that was nice and although I did get hit with Portuguese Man 0’War while I was there, that kind of woke me up. But yeah, that was a daily routine of maintenance of the aircraft and that's pretty much where I was at, there was a, two Japanese soldiers came out of the jungle and surrendered from World War II while I was there, and I thought that was interesting. And just the- the daily constant routine of watching these aircraft go take off and you know you can watch them take off at the end of the runway but you couldn't see that they got up okay because it was like 400 feet up, and they would- they would a lot of times would drop down a little bit and then they'd come back up, you’d see them come back up over the horizon so you knew they made it, so far as coming, coming up, taking off. (13:37) Interviewer: Kind of like launching them off of an oversized aircraft carrier? Yeah, yeah that's what it looked like yeah. Interviewer: Okay that did you, were you aware of any of them not coming back? Yes, yeah. Interviewer: So, was that and how would you find out about that or? That was just word came down through the, through the guys in charge, you know, “we lost this one or that one.” Interviewer: Now was that a regular occurrence or just occasional? Occasional I think, yeah. Interviewer: Okay well how long were you actually there? I was there four months. �Interviewer: Okay that's a substantial chunk of time so that's the latter part of ’68 or? Yes, from September to, I came, I flew back New Year’s Eve. Interviewer: Okay, alright now at that point now you were assuming that your overseas was essentially done? (14:21) Well, I hadn't even given it a thought, I just… Interviewer: Okay. You know, I was just kind of shocked when these guys told me that. I thought they were kidding with me. Interviewer: Alright so you've gone- you've done your four months in Guam, you get back, okay you're going to Vietnam, and then how long was it before you actually went over to Vietnam? Well, I got back right after the first of the year and then in March I had to go down to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina to train for the F-100. Interviewer: Okay so it's not, yeah because the B-52s weren't based in- in Vietnam. No. Interviewer: To begin with, they were elsewhere in Guam or Thailand or whatever, okay and so now just describe the new aircraft you're working on. The F-100 is a fighter plane and it's a lot smaller than a B-52, so everything is just kind of downsized, it's more compact, you know it's a little tighter working area, things like that, yeah, it's just learning the systems you know where they're at. (15:16) �Interviewer: Okay now were you still doing mainly hydraulics, or did you add more things? Just hydraulics yeah, never left hydraulics. Interviewer: Alright okay and so then about how long do you stay there? I think I was there about four weeks for training then they- they let me come home for about a month and I went, and then I went over May 1st. Interviewer: Okay and then how do they physically get you out to Vietnam? I flew on a flying lot called Flying Tiger Airlines; it was Continental Airlines the plane I went on. But I flew from- from Lansing to Seattle, and then from Seattle to Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay and from Seattle did you go by Alaska or something like that or did you just go straight over? I think they stopped, did they go through Japan or Alaska or some place? They made- they made a stop somewhere along the way. Interviewer: Yeah. I can't remember where it was now. (16:10) Interviewer: Yeah, there was a standard northern route that would take you to Anchorage and then Japan. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: And then down, sort of one of the ones a lot of people took. What was the mood like on the plane? Oh, it was just kind of subdued I guess, you know we all knew we were going, we're just waiting to get there. Everybody had a full, lot of anxiety I suppose about what you're gonna be going �into. But I kind of felt like I had this tour in Guam, so I was kind of comfortable with where I was going but that changes. Interviewer: Yeah, now were the- where there men from different branches of the service together on that plane? I thought that, I think these were all Air Force. Interviewer: Okay alright and then where do you land in Vietnam? We landed in Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: Okay and what was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there? Hot, stifling. Interviewer: Did you land during the day or night? During the day, yeah. Interviewer: Okay and was there anything going on when you landed or was it quiet? (17:07) There was something going on before we landed, we took a big drop in the altitude real quick and that was, I didn't think it was gonna make it. The plane kept going down finally it came, it got itself righted and brought it up and- and we landed okay, but there wasn't anything going on there, just the busyness of everybody moving here and there and the terminal I went into and there's full of Vietnamese people and they were all squatted on benches and stuff, it just kind of seemed to be kind of a surreal looking place to be. Interviewer: Okay so there's a lot of Vietnamese just on the base in Cam Ranh Bay when you get there? Yeah. Interviewer: Okay and then what did they do with you once you land? �I was there about an hour maybe two and they got me on a C-130 and flew me up to Tuy Hoa my base. Interviewer: Now where in Vietnam is that? It's about 160 miles northeast of Saigon. Interviewer: Okay. Right on the South China Sea. Interviewer: Alright and then what unit do you join when you get there? I joined the 31st, I was assigned to the 31st Field Maintenance Squadron which was part of the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing. Interviewer: Okay and they have F-100s there? Yes. (18:19) Interviewer: Okay so you actually got to work on what they trained you for. Absolutely yeah and more. Interviewer: Okay alright now describe first of all I guess a little bit just the- the base facility, kind of what was there and what kind of what did you live in and that kind of thing. It was a very, very nice base to be on, I mean if you had to be in Vietnam that was a good one to be on. And it was, they had by the time I got there they had- they had these metal hooches for us to stay in and I can’t remember how many guys would stay in those, 40/ 80 but they were all sectioned off. And then we had bunkers in between those to, in case there was an incoming. So, yeah but there was you know, you- you could walk to wherever you wanted to go, or you could catch a bus eventually, you know they had buses running all the time with the locals driving �those. So, we'd kind of depend on those to get up to the flight line to go to work and everything but we had movie theater, they had a lot of amenities there that you know most people don't have. (19:23) Interviewer: Yeah, I mean were the barracks air conditioned or? No. Interviewer: Okay, so they're not have that, quite that far. No, no. Interviewer: Alright and they, I mean about how- how many planes do you think were based there while you were there? I don't know, I really don't know I know it was probably well over a hundred Interviewer: Okay so substantial base, aside from the F-100s what else do they have there? They had C-130s which were rescue planes, they had, eventually they brought in some AC-119 gunships when I was about ten months in the country, they brought those in. And we had various helicopters and different Army spotter planes, we had O-2 our- our forward air controllers flew O-2 Bird Dogs, so we maintained those also, a little push-pull assessment, it's kind of like working on a model airplane. (20:19) Interviewer: Right, okay now when you get in there what kind of reception or welcome do you get when you show up? It was just kind of you know, there’s just another guy here you know, just they just kind of would tell you what you- what you need to know. You ask them and they tell you, the thing that surprised me was when I got there, I was talking to one of the guys and I asked him what base he �came from and he said, “home base,” and I didn't recognize that as an Air Force Base and he told me he was from the New York Air National Guard. And there was, at that time we were replacing his unit that had been there for a year and it was the New York Air National Guard and the- the 188th Tactical Fighter Squadron out of New Mexico, which is another guard unit, so those two units were there. Interviewer: Yeah, and actually most of it, there were not a whole lot of- of Guard or Reserve Units necessarily went to Vietnam. That just surprised me. Interviewer: Yeah. I didn't know that they had them there. (21:14) Interviewer: Yeah, but there were some certain places and I think it depend on what- what they could do. Yeah. Interviewer: But mostly they relied on draftees. Alright now how busy was the base while you were there? It was very busy, yeah if the- if the skies were clear, it was busy constantly, there's constantly aircraft coming and going, taking off, landing. The only time it was curtailed any is during inclement weather when we had monsoons and heavy rains and stuff, they couldn't get up there, but most all the time it was real busy. Interviewer: Okay and from where your perspective did you have much of a sense of what was going on in the larger war at that point? �No, you know I knew that we were flying air support for people and I knew that we had infantry taking care of our perimeter you know, kind of keeping us secure so we could help them out. You just see, you know you'd see flares going up at night and you could see tracers and stuff like that, so you knew there was some things going on but that never really got real close to us that I could see. They did hit the base with rocket and mortar attack I think seven days after I left. (22:32) Interviewer: Okay but while you were there, there weren't any… While I was there, I don't remember any- any incoming rounds, although we did have some sniper fire that one of our aircraft was out on a trim pad at night and they- they took on some sniper fire. So, that ended that nighttime stuff out on the permitter. Interviewer: Alright so on the whole then it was- it was a fairly quiet tour as far as things went, it was busy, did you have a sense of what kind of losses the air units were taking? What kind of losses? Interviewer: Yeah, I mean where you lose, were some of the fighters not coming back? Oh yeah, yeah, I- I know several that were, didn't make it back. And we actually we lost one of our own guys, one of the guys in my shop got shot by our guys, he's working on an aircraft and they touched off a round in the next group that went over, failing to get the trigger lock on and took this guy on the side, didn't kill him but I never found out other than the fact that he did survive how he's doing today, always wondered about him. (23:41) Interviewer: Now were there problems with accidents or faulty maintenance or things or was? �Yeah, you'd have those I mean that's just, that's part of war you know when you're in a situation like that where you're trying to get things going as rapidly as you can and people you know make mistakes after a while. Interviewer: Okay how would you, now what kind of group or set of men do you get to know while you're there, just people doing your particular thing or more than that? Most of the guys in my shop and then my, all the guys in my hooch and they were from different career fields too, so I had a guy did parachutes there and guys that were in charge of power equipment, and jet engine guys, and you know just everybody, all the maintenance people were, they were- they weren't all separated, they were all grouped together in the hooches. Interviewer: Okay how would you characterize the morale of the men that you knew there? (24:36) I think it was pretty good, yeah for the most part we did pretty good with it. We were all determined to do the very best we could do to make sure that this pilot got to where he was going and getting back and you know we knew that that kind of depends on us, you know it just depends on us to do that. Interviewer: Okay. And the guys were very good about what they did. Interviewer: Okay now there are a lot of stereotypes about Vietnam that don't always fit reality all that well and sometimes they do, one of them has to do with- with just drug use. Were you aware of that going on, on the base and to what extent? Yeah, yeah, I- I was introduced to marijuana while I was there, and I’d never smoked that before so that was my induction over there. But yeah, there wasn't, it wasn't, I don't think it was a real rampant amount of guys, I mean there were some guys you know doing it obviously, but I saw it �in the people that came to work on the base, the Vietnamese men that were working there. One of them was, he was in charge of a crew of ladies that he was- he was always plastered. (25:42) Interviewer: Now it was like marijuana use and stuff like that, I mean was that kind of the, have the same role sort of as drinking beer or whatever as sort of stress buster? I- I suppose it probably was but I- I- I didn't do that I just drank beer most of the time. Interviewer: Yeah, I mean basically you didn't have a lot of people showing up to work stoned or drunk or anything like that? No, no we did have I think it happened to every one of us pretty much that I can think of one day, you know a guy would miss duty because he was drinking and we had one guy show up on a night shift who was, he was definitely trashed and he was going- he was going home the next day, so we just laid him out on the bench and told him to chill out and we'll take care of it, you know. Interviewer: So, you're really not in a situation where any of that kind of stuff affects your job performance. No. Interviewer: Yeah, you're doing that, okay another issue has to do with race relations I mean do you have like black guys in your crew and? (26:36) Yeah, yeah, we did have yeah. Interviewer: And was there, I mean did they kind of segregate themselves from everybody else or anything like that? �I don't think so I think some- some may have tried to do that but there was- there was some that that did that, and they were attacking people at night, you know getting guys and beating them up. But that's- that halted after a while and we had- we had black soldiers in our- in our unit, you know in our hooch, it's some of my best friends, you know but we all worked together. We were there for the same, well we were there for the same purposes, but I know that stuff went on, you know. Interviewer: So, it's going on, you know somewhere on the base but not necessarily among the guys in your particular unit? You know there's always people that have that in them you know from wherever they come, from their culture or whatever, whether they be white or black they've got this stereotype of people and they just think that's the way it is you know. (27:36) Interviewer: And that was a point in time when there was a lot of tension at home already and the Black Power Movement was going. Yeah. Interviewer: And so, some of them are coming over and they bring a certain amount of that stuff with them too. Okay but again was that stuff that was kind of around the margins and not really affecting the actual work you did? Yeah, I didn't- I didn't really see that much. Interviewer: Okay now did you stay on the base pretty much your whole time or did you go anywhere else or do anything else? I made- I made two trips into the village, once to go to an orphanage or twice to go to an orphanage, three trips I must have made, to go to an orphanage and then one trip to go see a lady. �Interviewer: Okay. And that didn’t- that didn't work out too good so. Interviewer: What- did the base have a relationship with the orphanage or? (28:26) Yes, yeah, yeah that was through the chaplain I think, he had that going on so we, you know we'd go in there take the kids some candy and stuff, visit with them. Interviewer: And what impression did you have of the Vietnamese civilians who came andand worked on the base? For the most part they were good, you know there was a couple that I didn't trust and that's just the way it was, you know. I wouldn't let him shave me with a straight razor. And I caught one guy stealing our alarm clocks and that was not a good thing. Interviewer: Okay now did you have hooch maids cleaning for you or things like that? Just Vietnamese ladies. Interviewer: Yeah Yeah. Interviewer: And they, did people like that did they do your laundry and that kind of thing? They did our laundry yeah, yeah and I was in charge of paying the gal that did ours, so she'd come to me all the time. Interviewer: Okay did some of the men sort of try to take advantage of the situation or the women who worked there? Oh yeah, I’m sure yeah. (29:30) �Interviewer: Not, but not something that created much of any actual disturbance or? No they did it, you know on the sly, you know or secretly and so you know you just don’t know when that's gonna happen because you got people coming and going all the time. You know it’s kind of hard to- to work that situation out if you're gonna be doing something like that with somebody. Interviewer: And do they have a system where the Vietnamese all had to go off the base at night and then come back in the morning and check in? Yeah, they checked them out like a big cattle trucks, big semi with a flatbed trailer and they had sidewalls on it they'd haul them all out there, bring them all in. Interviewer: Okay now did you have any sense that there was much by way Vietcong activity out in the regions outside the base or did you not really hear about that? Well, when I’d see the flares go up at night and you know you see tracers and you’d see helicopter gunships out there, you knew something was going on. So, you know that kind of heightened your sense of awareness there. Interviewer: Yeah. (30:28) And with us being in the Air Force we didn't have access to our weapons, they had them locked up and they said they'd give them to us if they were being overrun and that- that never made me feel comfortable. Interviewer: Right. That's a bad time to be distributing weapons. �Interviewer: Okay now as far as you know did they, did the base get you know probed by sappers or anything like that while you were there? Not while I was there, prior to me getting there, there were. Interviewer: Okay and then did you get an R&R while you were there? I did. Interviewer: Where'd you go? I went to Australia. Interviewer: Okay now did you pick that or was that what was available? I picked it. Interviewer: Okay. But you had to have ten- ten months in country before you could go. Interviewer: Okay where did- where did you go in Australia? I went to Sydney, yeah me and two other guys from Michigan that were my good buddies, so we all went together. Interviewer: Okay and what's the appeal of going to Australia rather than Hong Kong or someplace? Oh just to see like American women. Interviewer: Or Australian ones, anyway. You know, and you know we actually I, we thought it was summertime over there, but it really wasn't, it was winter there when we went in March, I think it was. So, it was kind of, the idea of going down the beach kind of went away, it was kind of chilly. (31:43) Interviewer: Okay. �But we did experience some good things there. Interviewer: Yeah, how did the Australians treat the American servicemen over there? Very good, very good they were very warm and welcoming, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now the time you're over there or for that matter before that when you were still out on Sawyer how aware were you of the anti-war movement that was going on back at home? I was pretty well aware of it. Especially when I got back, and that Kent State thing happened a few days afterwards. Interviewer: But then but while you were there or before you went, I mean did you have a reaction or a response to that or? About the anti-war stuff? Interviewer: Yeah. I didn't really care; it wasn't my job, you know my job was to do what I do and whatever they want to do that's their business as long as they don’t infringe on my right to do my job. Interviewer: Right, alright now over the course of the year that you- you spent in Vietnam are there any particular incidents or things that kind of stand out in your memory? Yeah, the- the- the guy- the guy in my shop that got shot, that- that stands up. And- and the, I had one incident where I was down the intake of an air F-100 changing a pump and that's fourteen feet down in there kind of confined space and I heard this- this air motor start up outside and that's an indication they're getting ready to rotate the engine so that made be real excitable, you can imagine I come flying out of there. I asked that crew chief what was going on, he says, “oh I’m just testing this thing out.” I said, “man,” I said, “I’m down in intake,” I said, “I don’t want you testing that out but that doesn't make me feel real comfortable at all.” So, we had an �agreement that he wouldn't do that anymore but that was a- that was kind of a big, big deal. And then the- the aircraft that would crash you know we'd have a lot of crash nose gear, one plane crashed off the coast and they brought the remains back in, it was just a mess, you know. And you know you knew- you knew that you lost guys then that just kind of put a little bit of a, little cast a little shadow over the whole thing. (33:57) Interviewer: Yeah, so you're reminded you really are in a war. Yeah, a place where people would die. Interviewer: Between that and then the occasional fireworks outside and then the rest of that. Now yourself, did you basically feel pretty safe the, most of the time you were there? Most of the time I guess I probably didn’t think about it, but when I had moments to reflect especially at night with those flares going off at night, illumination flares, and impending, you know something may happen and we have no way of defending ourselves that was not very good. Interviewer: Yeah, how much understanding did you have of why we were in Vietnam in the first place? Not a whole lot, I just figured they were there to stop communism and that's what they were doing, and that's what I was willing to do. Interviewer: Okay and over the course of the year that you were there do you have any sense of how the war was going? I mean did you think we were winning, or could you not tell? You know it kind of comes and goes, there wasn't a lot of information like that you know that we were doing this or doing that. I just pretty much focused on the daily task you know, so. �Interviewer: Okay and as your year kind of starts to wind out are you counting the days ‘til you get to leave or? (35:05) Yeah. Interviewer: Okay and then what's the process then for getting you back out of Vietnam? You have to get a… I’m trying think of what they call that, get your- your flight information that you have your flight call, you know and then you just, they fly you back down to Cam Ranh and you get on the plane and you fly out of there and… Interviewer: Okay and what's the mood on the plane when you take off? Real tense but after we got out over the water, you know and got away, up and away there was a big cheer let out. Interviewer: Alright and where do you land in the states when you get back? We landed in Seattle. Interviewer: Okay and then what kind of reception do they have for you when you get there? Well, they actually held us on the plane for about 45 minutes in Seattle. Interviewer: Okay. (35:54) And I don't know what that was about, but it was you know a little disturbing because I had a plane to catch to get to- to Detroit and then to, or not Detroit, to Chicago and then Lansing. So, I was concerned I was gonna miss that but just being able to sit on the airplane and look out and see all that green it was wonderful, but we wanted to get out and smell it you know. �Interviewer: Now were you actually at- at the SeaTac Airport or were you at an air base or? (36:19) Yeah, at, I think it was McChord Airbase. Interviewer: Yep, okay but then from there you would have had to get over to SeaTac or something. Right. Interviewer: To then fly, but you actually had plane reservations already set to get you home? I think I did, yeah, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now was there a lot of, did you have to do much out processing at the McChord or do they just send you away. I didn’t, no, no. Interviewer: Okay. I just got right out there and got over there, the airport and got on the plane and flew to Chicago. Interviewer: Okay now as you're going through the airports now are you encountering any protesters or things like that? I didn't- I didn't see a whole lot of that. Interviewer: Okay and were you going in uniform or in civilian clothes? I was in uniform. Interviewer: Okay so people don't look at you funny or anything like that you just… If they did, I didn't care. Interviewer: Okay. �And I don't think I was aware of it; you know I was- I was focused on where I was going and… Interviewer: Yeah. Who I was going to see. Interviewer: Different people report different things and for a lot of them is no big deal for some of them it is. (37:07) Yeah. Interviewer: Okay now at this point do you still have time left on your enlistment? Or are you just about done? Oh when I got back? Yeah, I had time left. Interviewer: Okay so you've got a leave home and then you have to report somewhere again? Yeah, excuse me, I had to come back to K.I. Sawyer. Interviewer: Okay and did you just go back to doing what you had done before you left? Yeah, pretty much yeah. Interviewer: Okay and did it seem at all different after having spent a year in Vietnam or could you just pick up where you left off? I didn't, I felt kind of confident in my abilities, you know what I was doing. Interviewer: Okay and then when do you complete your enlistment? I completed it in, I got discharged in December of 1970. Interviewer: Okay. They let me out early to go to school but on the discharge, it says convenience to the government so. �Interviewer: Yeah. I don't know exactly what all that means. (37:57) Interviewer: Alright and you mentioned that the- the Kent State incident had happened sort of shortly after you got back, I mean what did you learn about it or what kind of reaction was there where you were? Well, I, me personally I thought that that's good, you know they, if those guys were coming at them, they needed to shoot them. But you know I’ve since had a little change of heart so. Interviewer: I mean ideally you don’t shoot protesters. Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah okay. Unless they- unless they are threatening. Interviewer: Right. Yeah, that's kind of an overreaction. Interviewer: Yeah, but anyway, but it certainly it attracted a lot of attention. Yeah. Interviewer: And then the, and then did you follow news about the war after you were back? Oh yeah, yeah. Interviewer: And when it, basically things fell apart were you surprised, or did you see it coming or? �Yeah, I- I kind of saw that coming because they were just, they never really, I don't think they ever really let the- the Military fight the war you know it was being fought from Washington and that's- that's not a good place to be doing that. (38:59) Interviewer: Alright now you say, you went to school then after you got back? Yeah, I got discharged in December and I went to LCC, started going to LCC taking automotive classes. Interviewer: Okay so Lansing Community College. Yep. Interviewer: Okay and then did you go into automotive work after that or what did you do? I went- I went back to work at GM and continued to work in there and eventually I got into a- a mechanical job at GM in the engineering. Interviewer: Okay. So… Interviewer: Okay and then did you have college beyond the community college, or did you just develop your skills on the job? Just developed them on the job, well I took an apprenticeship through- through GM too. Interviewer: Alright. So, I continued that. Interviewer: Now to look back at your- your time on the serve- in the service what do you think you took out of that or how did that affect you? Well it- it helped me to learn how to work with people you know, how to be a part of, and you �know and rely on people. And so that's- that's one of the biggest things I think and that people, most people are- are trying to do the right thing, you know you just have to join up with them and hang in there. And yeah, that was, and it gave me the ability to know that I can- I can solve problems that come up, you know that I don't have to quit, I can always continue and try again, try differently, enlist the help of somebody else, you can use your resources you know, they're always available. (40:24) Interviewer: So, for you I mean it was largely a positive experience? Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Vietnam was good for me; the whole military thing was good for me because it gave me structure and discipline and I needed that. Interviewer: Alright well you actually tell your story very efficiently which is just as well since we’re on the clock this morning, so I just like to thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. You're welcome. Interviewer: Okay, yeah, okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrownD1673V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Dale Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-09 Title A name given to the resource Brown, Dale (Interview transcript and video), 2014 Description An account of the resource Dale Brown was born in Lansing, Michigan on February 26, 1948. After graduating high school in 1966 he worked for General Motors before deciding to enlist since he thought he might be drafted to Vietnam anyway. Brown enlisted in the Air Force in May 1967 and went to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas for basic training. He then attended advanced training at Chanute Air Force Base in Rantoul, Illinois, where he was trained in hydraulics for B-52’s and KC-135 aircraft. After training, he was shipped to K.I. Sawyer Air Base in Gwinn, Michigan, where he worked on maintaining hydraulic systems. In 1968 Brown was sent to Guam for four months to maintain aircraft, and the night he got back to the base in Michigan, he heard that he had orders to go to Vietnam. He began training for the F-100 fighter plane in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina in March 1969, and that May he was flown to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam to be shipped out to Tuy Hoa Air Base. There, he was assigned to the 31st Field Maintenance Squadron which was part of the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing. He mostly stayed on the base the whole time except for a few trips into the surrounding village to volunteer at an orphanage. Brown and two of his comrades also from Michigan visited Sydney, Australia for R&R. While on base in Vietnam, was aware of fighting going on in the surrounding areas and would see flares go up at night, although he never experienced it himself. However, some of the aircraft they sent out never returned, and even within his shop there were accidents with one worker accidentally getting shot by his teammates. After a year in Vietnam, he was shipped back home and returned to K.I. Sawyer Air Base to finish his enlistment. He was discharged in December 1970, after which he began taking automotive classes at Lansing Community College and returned to work at General Motors. He believes his service was a positive experience that gave him structure and discipline, helped him learn how to work with and rely on people, and made him realize that he can persevere through any problems that he may face. Cam Ranh Bay Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db5ac88da74b7d2c1a6728e6b1cc69c8.mp4 8f367e23914a052da2e84d0da6759d34 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3c00452deb47b0df4d1adf923e3ae556.pdf 7c1dcae3eec02bae1d8c23a22641943d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Interviewee’s Name: Carleton Brown Length of Interview: 1:13:54 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman Interviewer: We’re talking today with Carleton Brown of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Carl, start us off with some background and to begin with: where and when were you born? I was born in New Haven, Connecticut. My dad was in the Navy, he was in medical school at Yale, and so I started out being in the Navy when I was born actually. (0:57) Interviewer: And what year were you born? 1944. Interviewer: M’kay. October 28th, 1944. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did your father have a career in the Navy? He did. He went to medical school and he became a flight surgeon, and I think he had at least 30 years in before he retired. Interviewer: Okay. So that means that as a Navy kid, or a Navy brat, you would have moved around a lot? Yup, Navy brat. We moved around a lot—I went to 13 schools before I graduated from highschool. �Interviewer: Alright, and tell me a little bit about your high school education: where did you go to high school and where did you graduate from? 9th grade was in Beaufort, South Carolina; 10th grade they sent me to St. Peter’s Episcopal school for boys in Peekskill, New York. 135 spoiled brats and me (Carleton laughs) that was a lot of fun; and then 11th grade was at Terry Parker Highschool in Arlington near Jacksonville, Florida; And then Manchester Highschool Central in Manchester, New Hampshire is where I graduated from high school. (2:01) Interviewer: Okay, now were all of these switches based on your father moving around or were there other reasons for you to go to the (Interviewer is cut off.) A large part of it, plus getting a better, maybe—the school system in Jacksonville wasn’t very good, it was facing disaccreditation so they sent me to New Hampshire. To graduate from a school in New Hampshire. Interviewer: Okay. And why New Hampshire? Well my grandparents lived in Manchester, New Hampshire and I had gone to school in the first grade in Manchester, New Hampshire. My dad was stationed in Turkey and my mother was homeschooling me, and that wasn’t really working out in the first grade, so they put me on a plane and I flew to Manchester, New Hampshire and started first grade at Pearl Street Elementary School in Manchester. Interviewer: Alright, now you also had a stint in San Diego when you were a kid, right? I never really lived in San Diego. We lived in Hawaii for a while. Interviewer: Hawaii, that was my next guess. My dad was stationed at Hickam, and I met my wife—we were kids—at the housing area just north of Hickam. I went to her ninth birthday party and kinda kept track of her through my mom and her mom. Oddly enough her name was Brown then, before we were married, so she just continued on with the same name Brown. She often complains she was looking for a more interesting last name, but got stuck with brown again. Interviewer: At least people can spell it! That’s right! I always say when they ask me what my last name is I say: Brown, like the color. �Interviewer: Alright, okay, so you wind up graduating from highschool in Manchester, New Hampshire in what year? That would have been in 1963 I believe. ‘62 or ‘63. Hm. Interviewer: And from there where did you go to college? I went to the University of Florida. Interviewer: And how did you wind up going there? Well, I wanted to go to a New England school but I didn’t really have the education that would allow me to do that, so I did well on the SATs and applied to the University of Florida where I had some friends going to school and they took me. Interviewer: Okay, and when you got to Florida what did you major in? Well the first couple years you’re kind of, like, lookin’ for a major. I tried the pre-med route and so forth and so on, but I wound up in Journalism and Communications as my undergraduate degree. (4:48) Interviewer: Alright. And then while you’re in school, by the time you’re getting close to graduating the draft is ramping up and Vietnam is starting. I was safe. I was a 2S. No fears of the draft. Interviewer: And 2S, what does that stand for? It means you have a deferment as a student. Interviewer: You have a student deferment? Okay, alright. How, then, did you wind up in the service? On my way back to the fraternity house I stopped at a—they had a booth where they were looking for pilots, Navy pilots. I went up to the guys there and said I’d be interested in being a pilot in the Navy, and I have really thick glasses so obviously that wasn’t gonna work out, and he told me “Well, I don’t think you’re gonna be a pilot, but you can go to the Student Union and take a test.” So I took a test at the Student Union and then I kinda forgot about it. A couple �weeks later I was on my way back to the fraternity house and when I walked in somebody said “Hey Brown, you’re going to Vietnam! Grab your rifle and get on the bus!” and I said “Wait a minute, what’s going on?” and they had opened my letter and put it on the bulletin board. That I was heading off to war. So I was a bit concerned about that, but you know I had to go and have a physical and all of that. Interviewer: Now were you at that point in your fourth year of college? Yeah about into the fourth year. Well into the fourth year. Interviewer: Because a student deferment normally lasts for four years. So it may be that the draft board was all ready to get you. Yeah, I changed majors a few times. I think I was actually a student at the University of Florida for almost 5 ½ years. Interviewer: That would do it. Once you get (cuts off) That kind of pushed the edge there. So, anyway I found out I did well on that test I had taken and the guy said that the recruiters, since I had taken the test before I got the letter, if I wanted to I could enlist in the Navy and perhaps go to OCS. So that’s the route I took. Interviewer: Okay, that’s Officer Candidate School. You have to remember our audience doesn’t necessarily know all the acronyms. Sorry about that. Interviewer: It’s okay. So, was there a Navy recruiter on campus, or what do you do? I think I made a phone call and set up a meeting to go talk to him. And he knew that I had gotten a score on the test that allowed me to, perhaps, go that route for enlistment instead of going to Vietnam with a draft notice. (7:32) Interviewer: Okay, and does the timing of the test matter, when you took it? Yeah. I had to have taken the test before I got my draft notice. Interviewer: What year was this, when this first happened? �It was in 1966. Interviewer: So in ‘66 you have a lot of people who get draft notices and expect to go into the Army or something, and they’ll try to get into the Navy or the Airforce, so you had a lot of people trying to enlist at that point. I’m sure. Interviewer: So that would probably affect why they would pay attention to that kind of thing. That’s right. Interviewer: But anyway: you had done it right, and so… I was fortunate. Interviewer: Did they let you finish your degree first? Yup, I got to finish my studies and get my degree and then in April of that next year I went to Officer Candidate School in Newport, Rhode Island. Interviewer: Now, were you married or engaged yet, or does that come later in the story? Not married at that point. Not really thinking about it very much. Went to OCS, took about four months, and then I went to communications school for a couple of months. And then got my little MGB and headed for California. (8:42) Interviewer: Well back up a little bit, talk about OCS. What did that actually consist of? Well, OCS was very interesting. There were 11 of us in our section and we got to be pretty good buddies. You learned how to eat the Navy way, which is really fast. (Carleton laughs.) As much as you can get in your mouth at a time and then off you move. The first month or two is move move move, they really push you along and go through the stuff, go to classes, march. A lot of marching. I was very interested in learning more about the Navy—I had kind of been in the Navy all my life with my dad and different bases, and he taught me a lot of very interesting things about how to do well in the Navy. I think part of the main one was he taught me that Chiefs were in charge of the Navy, and if you wanted to get along or do well in the Navy you had to remember that the Chiefs were in charge. �Interviewer: The Chiefs being Chief Petty Officers. Chief Petty Officers. Interviewer: The noncommissioned officers. That’s right. And I always kept that in my mind and it served me well. Interviewer: How much spit and polish was there in the OCS? There was a lot of spit and polish. You had to keep your boonies really well shined, I was the only one in our group who knew how to spit-shine a boonie, so I had to teach the other guys how to. Interviewer: What is a boonie? Boonies are your boots. They’re not real high boots, but they become your best friends. (Laughs) Interviewer: Right. And your peacoat. You had to have a nice warm peacoat. (10:30) Interviewer: So you knew how to spit shine and… That’s right. I had to show them how it takes a little bit of time and patience to get that shine that when you look at it, it looks like a mirror finish. Interviewer: And then, what do the classes consist of? Well, we had different classes in, like, tactics and seamanship. Navigation. A lot of the different things that you would run into when you got aboard a ship. There were yard patrol craft that we went out and sailed around on—I guess that’s Narragansett Bay? And learned some things about Navy procedures and communications and that was, it was a really full four months of that kind of activity. Interviewer: Now one thing you mentioned before we started the session was that your OCS class was kind of unusually small. �Right. Interviewer: And so, how does that affect the dynamic of those four months? If you’re this small and other classes are larger? Well, there’s a lot of things that have to get done in terms of, like, cleaning up things and putting things in different places, and so the class ahead of you, when they come in, they kinda like, use you to do all of that. And the class ahead of us was over a hundred men and we were only 11 so we got worn pretty thin. But by the time we graduated the class behind us was quite large so we had a lot of resources and assets, and even though it's only a month it seems like a long time. Interviewer: Okay, so when did you finish the OCS part? That would have been in July of ‘67. Interviewer: And then the next step was? Communications school. Interviewer: Okay was that in Newport or somewhere else? That was in Newport. Interviewer: Okay. So it was just a hop-skip-and a jump from our OCS spaces there. Interviewer: What are you actually being taught in Communications school? Well they teach us some of the basics about naval communications including Cryptography and things like that. They call it a Romeo-8 which has little discs and spins so you can decrypt and encrypt messages and those kinds of things. Plus basic stuff like semaphore and [in the Navy] when you talk with radio-telephone procedures, how to use proper radio-telephone procedure techniques. Spelling the Alpha Bravo Charlie letters and things like that. (13:20) Interviewer: Now was communications going to be your specialization, or? Looked like it, yup, at that point. �Interviewer: And then how long did that school last? It was a couple of months. Interviewer: Now when you’re in that school, or in OCS for that matter, do you get much of a chance to go off base or do you just stay on the base the whole time? Yeah, you can get off base. You get some… OCS, of course, after you’re in for a little while, maybe about three weeks to a month then you can get off on the weekends, and at comms school it was just during the day. There was a flag football team and things like that. Interviewer: And would you go into Newport? Mmhm. Washington Square. Interviewer: And how did the people in the community treat the Navy people? Um. You know, I didn’t interface with a lot of civilians in the community but it didn’t seem like there was any problem with that. I think it’s likely that the OCS and all the Navy stuff is probably a pretty good industry for that community. (14:25) Interviewer: So there weren’t signs on the lawn saying “No sailors allowed” or anything. No, no. Interviewer: Not like Norfolk or someplace like that. No, I didn’t see any signs against the military. Interviewer: Okay, I was curious there. Now would you go into Boston or would you stay around Newport? I went into Boston a few times, I had friends into New Hampshire, so we got up into New Hampshire. Sometimes my OCS buddies would go with me or we’d go to maybe University Connecticut for a football game or up into Manchester and meet up with my grandparents, so there was some time like that. Interviewer: And when you finished Communications school what was the next step from there? �Then I got orders to an aircraft carrier in California and I had a little bit of time off, spent some time with my parents in Florida, and then drove to California. Interviewer: Okay. Now, had you received your Commission yet or does that [happen] kinda after you get out to California? You get your Commission after OCS and before comms school, so I was a red-hot ensign by then. Interviewer: So now you’re at [the] Yorktown aircraft carrier. Right. Interviewer: So, how are you treated when you get there and what happens when you arrive at the ship? Well, I found out where to go and they told me where to put my stuff. They weren’t paying a lot of attention to me at that point because they were getting ready for an extended tour to Vietnam, and so everybody was kind of preparing for that. We did have some conferences we had to go to and things to get ready for the journey, and one of the things they had to do was talk about radiotelephone procedures, and since I had just graduated from Communications school they said “Okay, well, you’re in charge. We want you to conduct the radio-telephone procedures.” So I had to try and teach these guys that knew a whole lot more than me about radio-telephone procedures what the proper techniques were, like for instance you don’t say Roger-Wilco, over and out---that’s not right. But that’s what everybody says. Things like that, we did that in San Diego and everybody was pretty happy with knowing what the rules were but that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re gonna use them. (16:50) Interviewer: So how long did you spend in port before you went out? Well I got there in real early December 1967 and I needed to get my clothes cleaned and get going, so I called my mother and she gave me her friend’s number in Newport Beach that I had known when I was a child, when I was a kid. So I called her and she said “come on down” and I went down there, and after she fed me a couple times and cleaned my clothes I said, “Didn’t you have a daughter about my age?” and so she gave me Betsy’s address, my wife-to-be, and I drove up to Westwood, LA and knocked on her apartment door and her roommate Judy answered. And I said “Well, Judy, is Betsy here?” and Judy said, “No, there’s no Betsy here.” and she turned and said “Betty, do you know a Betsy?” I said oh wait, maybe it’s Betty I’m looking for. So �Betty came and uh, unfortunately Betty—or Betsy—had a date that night but I took Judy out and learned a bit about her. And I made a date with Betsy for the following weekend so that was in about the middle of December and anyway we had a strong relationship and I proposed to her. Christmas Eve I asked her father for his daughter’s hand in marriage and then the ship left before New Years for 8 months. Interviewer: Okay So that was a fast month, I can’t believe it all happened in one month. Interviewer: Well, you’re about the age where sometimes things can move that fast. That’s right, that’s right. Interviewer: And it seems to have worked because she’s listening in from the booth right now, so. Okay, now when you ship out do you go straight across the Pacific or did you put in any ports along the way? (19:14) Well we had an interesting time. When we went out—the ship goes down to San Diego and the aircraft come aboard and then we go out—it just turns out we were following the Enterprise across, and it turns out there was a Soviet attack submarine that was shadowing the Enterprise and we were allowed to use our Anti-submarine warfare technology, that was pretty sophisticated at the time, to track that submarine that was watching the Enterprise. So the aircraft would go out and drop sonobuoys in patterns and we would try to locate the submarine, sometimes we could and sometimes we couldn’t, but it was the first time they let us overtly prosecute to try and find that submarine. And the Enterprise went into pearl before we did, and then we were in pearl for awhile, and then she left before we did and we did some more of that on the way out to Japan. It was pretty exciting cause the whole progress of all of that is done in what they call the Flag Operation Center which is right next to the CIC, Combat Information Center. Combat is dark but the Flag Operation Center is lit so pilots come through and they had these big, big boards that they move back and forth with all the little planes and everything. You can move them around to try and give the pilots some idea where they should go to find the submarine and track it down. So it was really very interesting for me as my first real experience in the Navy doing anything like that, and it was quite an adventure. And then when we got on our way to Japan, the North Koreans took the Pueblo, then we got diverted up into the sea of Japan and we were part of the operation that was watching Wonson Harbor and deciding what to do about the fact that Pueblo had been captured. My boss was a communications guy and he set up these special circuits and we got messages about that, like contingency plans? and I pulled those, they were top-secret plans that had to have a disclosure �sheet on top. After you looked at them you had to sign the disclosure sheet saying that you had access to these things. So they came in and I put them on the board and took them to the Chief of Staff and he asked me “Well, what are those messages?” and I said “Well, they’re contingency plans” and he said “Well, I don’t wanna read ‘em go show them to the Admiral.” so I took them to the Admiral and I said “These are the contingency plans, Chief of Staff said I should bring them to you.” and he said “Well, what is it?” and I said “Well, it’s what we’re gonna do in case we’re gonna do something with the Pueblo.” and he said “Well I don’t wanna read that stuff, go take it to somebody else.” So I went around trying to get somebody else to read these contingency plans which included some things maybe the Yorktown would be doing, in that contingency, and nobody would read it! So I put it in a safe and locked it away and hoped that nothing would ever happen where we would need those things. And it was kind of stressful because I was the only guy that read those things, and you know, anything could happen. (22:53) Interviewer: But as it was that situation did get defused, so we didn’t invade North Korea or anything like that. That’s right, but I think they made the Pueblo into a museum and maybe if we get a little more peaceful with North Korea we’ll be able to check out that museum someday. Interviewer: Mhm. Okay, alright, so you go to Japan. Now do you go on shore in Japan or do you just stay on the ship? Yup. We went to Yokosuka and did some shore leave there, a little bit of time. And then the Yorktown had a problem with its prop and they took it down to Sasebo and put it in drydock and changed the prop out, so we got to see Sasebo which is an interesting town, southern Japan, very different from Tokyo that’s for sure. Interviewer: How did the Japanese people seem to view the American sailors? Pretty positively. We had good liberty in Japan, everybody was pretty happy with Americans. Interviewer: You didn’t have too many seamen acting up in the bars or anything like that? Not too much. No. Most of that was in the Philippines I guess. Interviewer: Yeah that’s a different world. So, from Japan now, do you head to the coast of Vietnam or what comes next? Right, we went to the Philippines, Olongapo, and then over to Yankee station. (24:23) �Interviewer: Okay, Yankee Station. Explain what Yankee Station was. The Yankee Station was really just kind of an area near Hanoi and Haiphong where a lot of the action was taking place in terms of US planes bombing Haiphong and Hanoi, and that was what the serious war was. Interviewer: And so now this is 1968, now that this is happening. And this is the period of—the Tet Offensive started January 30th, and intense levels of fighting go on for about a year after that, so there’s a lot of action going on both in South Vietnam and in bombing raids up north. So was the Yankee Station area sort of in international waters? I believe it was. There was always the threat of submarines there, although it's not very deep we’re still worried about the possibility of that coming into play, so our job on Yorktown was to keep track of all the surface combatants and to be sure to be ready to react to any kind of submarine activity that might have come in, but I don’t think there ever was, so my knowledge, any submarine activity. Interviewer: Now would planes from Yorktown go and hit targets on the mainland? No, they mainly monitored surface combatants and checked for submarines. They were always doing anti-submarine. And they had equipment on the Yorktown, sonar equipment and that kind of equipment plus we delivered the mail. It was probably the main good thing we did was keep the mail going, so the mail came into the Yorktown and then planes, carriers—CODs, we called them CODs. I don’t remember what that stands for but they would deliver the mail out to others and there were underway replenishments, and destroyers would come alongside and things would be transferred and replenished. Interviewer: So you’re doing what is essentially—you have screening duties or whatever, escort duties and other carriers are the ones that have the strike forces. That’s right. Interviewer: But then you fill these other kinds of jobs and duties because you’ve got a big ship that can hold a lot of stuff, planes can land there and take off. That’s right. The Yorktown was a CVS, not a CVA, so that little distinction put her into more of a anti-submarine role. Interviewer: Okay. (27:01) �I was aboard the Yorktown when she had her 25th birthday. They took a picture of the men out on the deck, 25 years, and Hilo went around and took pictures. It was a big day for the Yorktown which saw service in World War Two. Interviewer: Because it was a replacement for the original one that was lost at Midway. Yeah. Interviewer: So what was daily life like for you on the Yorktown? It was fairly routine. I had a room with two other guys and showers were always a little bit tough. If you took more than a 10 second shower, they always had a problem getting enough fresh water. The food was pretty good, we used to say about the Yorktown that she wasn’t a looker but she was a feeder, so we got pretty good grub on the Yorktown. I never complained and I never got seasick, so that was good. Interviewer: And then your duty station? Was in the Flag Operation Center, and they had a watch section, you had like 4 hours of watch and then they had a routine and different people would come in and go off and you’d have to show them what was going on and bring them up to date, then the next person, the next crew would come in. I stood watch—there were two officers that stood watch in the Flag Operation Center. Interviewer: And how many enlisted did you have with you? Probably a good 50 enlisted men, connected with the staff and its operation. Interviewer: Alright, [and then] you talked before about how the Chiefs run the show, how did you apply that knowledge when you went into your assignment there? Well, as an ensign and a JG, not so much. But I still paid attention because it’s pretty obvious if you watch what’s going on that Chiefs are running things in the Navy. Interviewer: Because, I guess, at that point you’re not giving orders. Normally there would be someone superior to you on duty with you and so you just have particular jobs and things that you do. That’s right. �(29:27) Interviewer: Now… [about] how long did you spend off the coast of Vietnam? Well, several weeks from time to time, and then we would go back to the Philippeans. We did take a tour [where we] got around to Singapore once and that was an interesting trip. Got off the ship enough to get into looking at Malaysia a bit. That was an interesting country and people were happy to see us. We went to a big fancy hotel there in Singapore, can’t remember the name of it, but anyway we did see some sights there. And then back on line. Interviewer: Now, when you would go into a port, did officers take turns with shore patrol or was that all enlisted men? Pretty much enlisted men did shore patrol. Interviewer: So that wasn’t part of what you had to do, look for them? No. Interviewer: Now aside from the Pueblo incident, were there any other things that happened that kind of stood out in your experience there, took you out of the routine? On that tour, not really. The following tour on the Kearsarge was really much the same, still the same kind of operations: anti submarine warfare operations. But then we got into a SEATO exercise, which included ships from the Philippines and Japan and a lot of other countries. Interviewer: So that's the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization. Southeast Asia Treaty Organization. In the south China sea. And it was during that exercise that I was on duty, I was on midwatch. It’s about 1:30 in the morning and one of our Destroyers, the Destroyer that went across with us, part of our carrier group, was in this exercise with the Melbourne which was an Australian aircraft carrier. During the night they went into plane operations, which was the normal thing, and Frankie Evans was the Destroyer working with the Melbourne. Frankie Evans was a forward of the Melbourne in a screen position and the Melbourne asked her to take plane-guard duty, which was a very normal thing, because when you’re conducting aircraft operations you wanna have a Destroyer close behind you in case a plane goes in the water because the Destroyer can get to that plane a lot faster than the Carrier could possibly turn around and get to them. So taking plane guard is a normal safety precaution but the skipper, Evans, didn’t handle the ship properly and when he came around the Melbourne cut it in two. And 65 guys on the bow of that ship went down in about 5 minutes. And it’s pretty �deep there, it’s the Marianas Trench, so it was a real bad accident. And I was in the Flag Operations Center and I heard somebody in CIC laughing and I thought “Well what’s going on?” and I opened the curtain and the guy pulled the message off the teletype and says “Look, Mr. Brown, it says here the Evans is in two parts.” I said “What could that mean?” he says “I don’t know!” Well, it turned out there had been a collision at sea and in about five minutes the Flag Operations Center was full of officers. Really, that was a bad, bad event and I remember the next day I was on watch for about 7 ½ hours before I got out. When I got out I went out on the flight deck and the Evans was about, hmm, 1000 yards off and you could see where the front had been cut off. It looked just like somebody took a pair of scissors and cut that ship in half. (34:02) Interviewer: But the main part—the ship was still afloat otherwise? The stern was still afloat. Interviewer: So is it designed so that it could do that thing or? I guess they had pretty-good, water-tight integrity. They kept the hatches locked and she stayed afloat, the stern half. There were some strange stories: one seaman who was asleep in the superstructure landed on the deck of the Melbourne when the accident occured, he woke up and he had no idea where he was. The crew, [the men] on the Melbourne did a remarkable job rescuing people in the water and reacting right away to save as many people as they could. Interviewer: So some people on the bow were in that section that ended up in the water rather than going down with a piece of the ship. Right. Interviewer: That’s jumped a little bit ahead in your story here, so we’ll go back, so you do your Yankee station patrol with the Yorktown and then does the Yorktown after a certain number of months go all the way back to the States or? Back to San Diego, back to Long Beach, we got back to Long Beach in July and in August I had a wedding with my wife, Betsy. August 10th, then we went on a little honeymoon, so that was a long 8-month engagement but most of that was when I was on a ship. Interviewer: You were on a ship, out of trouble anyway. Well, we wrote to each other every day. �Interviewer: So being on the mail ship was a good thing. A blessing, right. (35:47) Interviewer: So, now normally when a ship comes back to port would you have an extended period back in the states before going out again? Yeah. If you’re on the ship’s crew it would probably be a couple years before your ship would be deployed back to Vietnam or somewhere else on an extended timeframe, but I was on this Admiral staff and you get about 4 months and they put you on a different ship, this time the Kearsarge, CVS 33, and then back to Vietnam. Back to deployment. Interviewer: Now were you assigned to the Admiral staff after you got back on the Yorktown or were you already attached to that Admiral? Same Admiral staff, just moves from one ship. They move their flag from one ship to another. Interviewer: And can you name which Admiral that was? On the Yorktown, Admiral Weymouth was our Admiral. He was a very distinguished Admiral, fighter pilot in World War II I guess and then Admiral Jerome H. King took over as Commander ASW Group-1 when we were on the Kearsarge. Interviewer: So basically you’re with the unit, but on the Admiral’s staff. Essentially the Admiral switches but the staff stays the same. That’s right. Interviewer: Okay. And some other staff members, but for the most part we stayed the same. Interviewer: Okay. Now at this point had you been promoted yet, are you of Lieutenant Junior grade? I made Lieutenant Junior grade. You had to be an ensign for a year at that point before you got promoted to JG—Junior Grade. Interviewer: And did you get that promotion before you left? �Yes. (37:37) Interviewer: Cause you’ve got a picture of your wife helping pin the bars on. That’s right. Interviewer: Okay, now with the Kearsarge was it essentially a repeat of the same kind of thing you were doing on the Yorktown? Very similar, yes. Interviewer: And aside from that incident with the Evans, what other things kind of stand out for you from that tour? You know nothing really stood out. It was a lot of watch standing and making sure everybody knew what was going on in terms of what ships were where, and the pilots would come through and we would show them the best scenarios we could about what was going on in the surface activity, and if there [was] any submarine activity. Interviewer: And now, did the Soviets or the Chinese or anybody else shadow you at all or have their own boats out there, I mean there were Soviet trawlers and things that we hear about. I remember we got overflown by bears at one point, that was kind of exciting. Because when they—when those Russian bombers come by—-they can get really close. You can even see—I have this imagination that I could see people on those planes. I mean, it’s an amazing thing that they would come by that close and I think they’re kinda trying to scare you a little bit. Interviewer: So aircraft, but not necessarily any other vessels. No, no, I don’t recall any collisions at sea or anything like that. Sometimes when you’re going through the harbors you have to be careful of the junks cause there’s a lot of maneuvering you have to do to get around smaller boats and ships, in and out of harbors, that’s about it. Interviewer: Now with these carriers, did you ever put into Cam Ranh Bay or a Vietnamese port? Or always other places? Nope, nope, carriers didn’t go in there. �Interviewer: And then you said you got to Singapore, did you go to Hong Kong or Taiwan or anywhere? Yup, we went to Hong Kong. We took a trip to Hong Kong and that was very interesting. We got all the way up to where red China started, like a little gate there. (40:10) Interviewer: Some people tell stories about going into the harbor at Hong Kong and having a bunch of women coming out and painting their ship. Now was that for smaller boats? Probably not an aircraft carrier. I guess so? I guess so. Interviewer: But you didn’t see anything like that that you recall. No, I don’t recall. It did seem like there was some commerce going on though between boats in the harbor and some of the ships. Probably groceries and vegetables. It was always nice to get some fresh vegetables. Interviewer: Right. Now, when you go into a port like that do you get any information in terms of what you should do and don’t do, or any miscellaneous warnings? Oh yeah, there’s a list of… what do they call it… I can’t remember what they call it, but a list of places that they don’t recommend you visit which are usually the best places. You kinda look forward to getting that list cause you can find out where the action is. (Laughs) Interviewer: Well, I mean there’s the kinds of places where you can get yourself into a lot of trouble, as opposed to the kinds of places that are nice and expensive and fancy and they don’t want a bunch of drunken Americans running around. Right. Interviewer: So would your list include both kinds of things or what did they emphasize? They emphasized the first where “these are dangerous spots”, not recommended. Interviewer: You also [talked] about going to the Philippines, how was going to the Philippines different from going to Hong Kong or Singapore? �Well, the Philippines of course, they had a really good Navy exchange. It was the place to go to buy a tape recorder, a Sony tape recorder. It’s not as clean a place as Hong Kong, so you have to be a little careful about what you get involved in, where you go. Interviewer: Yeah, I’ve had interesting stories from enlisted men about going. Olongapo was an interesting place. There’s a bridge from between the brace and you get into Olongapo, there’s a bridge and there are boats in the water and sometimes there’s attractive young ladies on the boats and people would like to throw money in the water and they would dive down in to get the money. It was all kind of a circus thing. Interviewer: So how long was the tour on the Kearsarge? Well it would have been another 8-month tour but I requested some other duty, and I got that extra duty. I felt like maybe I could see some of the rest of the world rather than, it looked like to me, I would be on the Kearsarge for another 8 months and then the staff would move to another carrier and we’d go back. So my three years in the Navy would include three tours to Vietnam, and that seemed like a bit much to me. So I thought, one of the things I was responsible for was the registered documents, it’s called an RPS Custodian. So I’d have to go with a bag and get new key lists and things, and then turn in the old key lists, and do all of that for the registered publications which were classified, sensitive information, so I was at the center once and I asked him “Where are all the registered publication places?” and he said “Well, they’re all over the world! They’re in Scotland, Germany, Spain.” I said, “Wow, that sounds like a pretty interesting thing. I'd like to get involved in that.” maybe see some of the rest of the world. And so I went back and I looked up the instructions and I thought maybe I’d just put in for a tour of duty with the security group, because the naval security group are the ones that handle all of that. Then I thought what do I have to offer the security group? I really don’t have anything. Maybe if I spoke Russian, that would be something that they need, based on my reading. So I put in for a Russian language school, and sure enough I got orders to Russian Language School and then a tour of duty with the security group, which is odd because usually things don’t go the way you plan them. So my wife and I went to the Presidio of Monterey, and the Presidio is an army language school. We took Russian for a year and she did better than I did. She was a very good student, but we would have these sessions where you would do a conversation in Russian and we would practice doing them with each other, so we got pretty good at Russian. Interviewer: So how did she wind up in the Russian language school? Well if they had room you could ask for your wife to go, and there was enough room for her to go. �Interviewer: Okay. Now did she—because, did you have some kind of security clearance for yourself, for the duty you had, or was that required? Yes. Interviewer: And was she required to have clearance of some kind? Nope, she wasn’t. She wasn’t. Fortunately she didn’t have to have a security clearance to learn Russian, so. (46:06) Interviewer: Okay, so she’s there. So she’s helping you along with the Russian, now did they just use immersion or how did they teach you? It’s immersion. They had wonderful instructors; many of these instructors were older, had gotten out of Russian before the revolution, so they’re pretty old. But very, very American people, very pro-american and they’re interesting to have as instructors. They had all kinds of interesting stories to tell about living in Russia with the czar before communism, so that was a very interesting experience and part of learning Russian, they take you through Russian history, which has gotta be one of the toughest things to try and learn. Especially if you’re learning it in Russian, it’s kind of an ordeal because America has been around for what? 300 years? And Russian history goes for thousands of years, it’s just a crazy thing. Interviewer: Yeah. I did a few classes in grad school. Did you? Interviewer: Yeah, very interesting stuff. Very interesting stuff. Interviewer: So how long was language [school], you said a year? A year. Interviewer: And how much time do you have left in your enlistment at this point? Well, when you take these schools you get more time, you have to commit to more time. Interviewer: So you would have been in four years but now it's gonna be 5 and something? �Yes. Interviewer: So you spend a year there and then, do you live on the base, do they have facilities for you? Fort Ord in California, yup. Their facilities. (47:57) Interviewer: And so, what were those like? They were pretty nice. It was a little… like a duplex. And it was furnished with army furniture and it was comfortable enough, and one of the things you had to do was keep everything very clean. They liked it to be very clean—it was clean when you got it, by golly it had to be really clean when you left. Interviewer: Right. Now, you were able to afford to have your wife be in school rather than working in some place? Yeah, the expenses weren’t great at that point, because you got your housing provided and we were fortunate in that respect. Interviewer: So after you complete your year of language school, what assignment do you get? Well, I put in for Scotland. Edzell, Scotland. And we had a couple there in Edzell that were our sponsors, and we wrote letters back and forth and we were all excited about moving to Scotland, but then two weeks before we were set to go my orders changed and they decided to send us to Bremerhaven, Germany instead. We were really disappointed, you know? I thought Scotland was gonna be a lot of fun. So we went to Bremerhaven, Germany and that was nice, we had a nice place. My son was born just before we went to Germany and then while we were in Germany my wife decided to have twins, so we had three young children there and Bremerhaven was a good place to have your kids. And I was doing watches, 8 hour watches; after we were there for about 6 months I thought it’d be nice to go visit the people that we were gonna live with over in Scotland, so we wrote to them and they said come on over, so we put the car on the ferry and went to Harlech and drove up to Edzell, Scotland and met them and it was… it was pretty remote. It was really remote. And drove back to Germany and I think we were both pretty thankful that we got sent to Bremerhaven instead. Interviewer: Because Bremerhaven is a good-sized port city and you’re close to Hamburg. �Close to Hamburg and Bremen. We went to Bremen a few times. Get on the train and go to Bremen. And I was standing watches—we had about six -hour watches in about 4 and ½ days, so you did your watches and then you got like 3 ½ days off, so Betsy would have got a babysitter and we’d load up the car and I’d meet her at the end of the watch and we’d drive to Amsterdam or Vienna, make different trips out of that. We didn’t do that every time, but every once and awhile. Stockholm and Sweden. So we had like three days off and I’m back and then I’m back to work. So we saw a little bit of Europe doing that. Interviewer: Now when you would travel around Europe, would people take a look at you and know that you were American military, or that you were…? Yeah… Yeah, pretty much. I always remember I stopped in a little cafeteria in Cologne once and I sat at a table by myself, but it was fairly crowded and pretty soon there were a bunch of people at the table. And I was listening to them talk, and I said a couple of things, and then somebody said something to me and in German and I said to him “Please don’t speak so quickly, I’m an American and my German isn’t that good.” and they all went [wide-eyed] cause they didn’t know there was an American sitting at the table. So I felt pretty good about that, that I could hide in there with them. (52:37) Interviewer: And what time frame are we talking about, when were you in Bremerhaven? Uh [1970 to 1972]. Interviewer: Now, did any sort of echoes of the American anti-war movement make it over to Germany that you ever observed? Not that I observed personally. They had some, what was it, the Red Army Faction? Interviewer: Red Brigades. Yeah, Red Army Faction at some point, I think the Red Brigades is Italy, but yeah. Down in Frankfurt and stuff, and so when you went through checkpoints or whatever they took things and checked under your car to make sure there weren’t any bombs tied to the bottom of your car and stuff like that. It was some anxious times with that business. Interviewer: Now, did you have any kind of unusual alerts or situations, or things that had happened while you were in Bremerhaven that kind of broke up the routine? �No, not really. When I was on watch at one point we used to listen to all these conversations all over the world, that’s what the base in Bremerhaven did. We got communications that Sri Lanka had been—there was a revolution or something, they took over. Big government change, so the guy in charge of that communications brought me a message form that was standard policy when there was an unwarranted regime change like that. Flash message and it all looked good to me, and I signed it off and they sent it. That Flash message goes to the President of the United States, [so it’s] a tense moment, you know? And so it went off and then the next day I got called back in and the Skipper of the base—Skipper the security group—called me in and he said “You know, before you send a message to the President, you gotta give me a call.” There wasn’t any protocol to do that so I hadn’t, but you know, it was something to consider. Interviewer: So, I guess describe then a little bit more what your functions are, or what’s happening at that base. Well, the main thing they did there was—ya know, I don’t know how much of this is classified anymore. Seems like it was so long ago that it shouldn’t be classified, but we were listening to Russian communications and trying to figure out what was going on. When they got certain kinds of communications of a routine nature they could predict when the Russians were gonna launch an ICBM, so they started paying a lot of attention to all kinds of communication in order to be able to predict what was going on. Interviewer: So, I guess, how would you wind up being the one to send the communication about Sri Lanka to Washington? You’d think there might be a different route that would send that. Well, you know, I guess it’s if you get the communications and you’re supposed to do something with it, that’s what you do but I was the Operations Watch Officer, so there were like a hundred and forty men on watch at any one time and there were morse code operations, there were teletype operations, lots of different communications operations going on all the time, 24-hours a day. So every once and awhile something would happen. (56:33) Interviewer: Anything else you wanna bring in about the time in Bremerhaven beyond that? No. We managed—my section, alpha section—managed to beat the day-workers and win the Captain’s Cup Volleyball Championship and that was a significant achievement because the dayworkers always won that thing. �Interviewer: Now when you finish the tour in Bremerhaven, do you still have time left on your enlistment? No, I was done at that point. Had served my 5 years and 3 months, and I think I was… I don’t know the term for it, but I think I was riffed. Which means they didn’t need me anymore. Interviewer: So what rank were you at the time? A lieutenant. Interviewer: And so at that point, actually in the draw-down of the size of the armed forces as Vietnam was winding down. Yeah, so a lot of Army officers lost their rank and so they’re doing that in the Navy to a certain degree. Now could you have stayed in the Navy at a lower rank, or were you just—-? No. No, not really. I might have been able to petition for another job or something, but you know I’d have to figure that out. I was kind of ready to move on to something else, so I thought at that point that going back to school would be a good thing. Interviewer: Now did you opt to stay in the Reserves, or did you have a Reserve obligation anyway? No, no I opted to stay in the Reserves. Went back to school and went to the Reserves Center and found a job at the Reserves Center. Interviewer: Now where did you go to school next, then? I went back to the University of Florida, and I got my Masters in International Management and Comparative Government. That took about a year and then during that time I learned a few things about the best way to go with a degree, so I thought “You know, maybe I need something a little more productive” in terms of what you’re gonna work for and what I wanted to do. So I moved to Phoenix, went to Thunderbird, it’s an international business school. You [can have] a degree in International Management to International Economics, and I did some German there too. And that took another year in Phoenix. Then I was at the Reserve Center there too doing my two days a month. (59:30) Interviewer: Now was the government paying for your education at this point? I was on the… yes. �Interviewer: Sort of the officer’s version of the GI Bill? Well I don’t think there’s a version. It was the GI Bill. Yup. I was taking advantage of my GI Bill opportunity. Interviewer: Okay, and you had little kids at home, so was your wife just taking care of them at that point, or did she get a job somewhere? She managed to go to class and do some classes at Thunderbird as well. I don’t think—She didn’t get a degree there but… yeah, those kids were a lot of fun. Interviewer: Now having gone and gotten that degree, what did you do with it? Well, I looked for a job and I wound up at Baxter Traven0l in Chicago, so we moved to Chicago and I was part of the Baxter Travenol team there. Interviewer: And what kind of company was that? Medical products. They made kidney dialyzers, [that] was like the main thing, and so I got involved in planning the production of kidney dialyzers all over the world and the amount of kidney dialyzers we would make in the United States and send to different countries like Israel and Japan, and coordinating that activity. It was a very interesting job. (1:01:00) Interviewer: And then, how did you wind up in Michigan? Well from Baxter I got a job at Stryker down in Kalamazoo, and then I moved from Stryker, I moved up to Amway Cooperation and I did the Germany and Switzerland distributors for Amway. Interviewer: To think back to the military career a little bit, how would you characterize the morale in the Navy units you served with? Pretty good. Pretty good, the Navy had a lot of opportunities and I think a lot of people took advantage of them. I think the Navy was pretty good service—for me it was and I think most people were pretty positive about it. Interviewer: Now, I’m not sure to what extent you’d even get to know the enlisted men, but I mean, the Navy was a place where a lot of people enlisted to stay out of the Army or the �Marine Corps. Did you have a sense some of the crew or the enlisted men you were working with were people who were there because there was a Draft on? You know, there might have been a little bit of that. I think people that got into the Navy or were in the Navy felt like they were probably a little better off than having gone to Vietnam and serving in-country. That was pretty hazardous. I had a fraternity brother and before I joined the Navy we talked about being buddies and joining the Navy together. I kinda lucked out and went the OCS, Officer Candidate School route and he went in with the Marines, and he became a corpsman with the Marines. And then he went in-country in Vietnam and I got several letters from him. You know, the letters would come from Vietnam, somehow they would go to the United States then go back to the ship, so it was before cell phones. He would tell me about his adventures and what he was doing, and it made your heart point to read those letters. I think he was fortunate to live through it, I’m sure he saved a lot of lives and was a great person to have on patrol as a corpsman. And then he’s since had a distinguished career since he left the Navy, left the Marines. Well actually, he was never in the Marines. He was a Navy Corpsman. Interviewer: Yeah, he was a Navy Corpsman who served with the Marines. Cause the Marines don’t have medics. Now when I read those things it’s kind of a double thing. You know you wonder “Wow, man, this guy’s really doing something good. He’s contributing.” but on the other hand woah is that dangerous. War can be tough. (1:03:51) Interviewer: Now did you notice any kind of racial tensions or issues on the big ships or on the bases? Not that I recall. Not that I recall. It was… there were, you know, people from different ethnic groups and it seemed like the Navy was pretty good about assimilating. When I was in Bremerhaven, Admiral Zumwalt came out with what they call Z-grams, which I think tried to get people to talk about things and open up, and so on the midwatch I kind of instituted rap sessions, with the Chief’s permission of course. We would get a few people that had a little bit of extra time and get together and talk about problems and what could be done about them, and you know I always believed in a sense of participation and being able to speak your problems out and talking about them as being the first part of getting things resolved, so we kept talking. That was—you know I don’t know where the Navy is with that kind of stuff today, but that was a little bit new back then. Interviewer: I ask the questions in part because of certain stereotypes about the US military, especially in the Vietnam era, and they can have to do with morale, they can have �to do with race, and the other issue that comes up is drug use. Was that noticeable at all within the Navy? No, I didn't notice any drug use. Did not. Interviewer: It would be probably hard to have a whole lot of that on the ships like that. Right, right. I think you heard stories about some people having problems with alcoholism, and on a ship alcohol, in the US Navy, is strictly prohibited but that didn’t mean some people didn’t keep bottles in their bottom desk drawer. But I never saw anybody that had the kind of misbehavior. Interviewer: So for you, how do you think that your time in the navy affected you, or what did you take out of it? Well, I love the Navy. I had a good time in the Navy and I did my job as best I could and I think I contributed to the success of our missions and my different assignments and I look back on the Navy as having been a very wonderful experience. Interviewer: Now how long did you stay in the Reserves? Well I retired in like 1995, so I had about… I think I had about a total of 28 years in. Interviewer: And what rank did you finish at? I retired at Commander 05. Interviewer: And then aside from the sort of two days a month kind of thing, the Reserve service, did you have any other longer stints of training of any kind, or summer trips? Sure, you know we did our two weeks every summer. At least once a year you were supposed to do two weeks and I had some good [times]. I was the commanding officer of the Naval Station Guam out of Muskegon, Michigan, it was a great unit, great people. I had active duty for training and we went to Guam for 17 days, and that was an interesting experience. My job there was to inventory the fire engines on the island. The fire chief was retiring and that was one of the things they had to go was check out all the fire engines, so my wife and I rented a car and during those 17 days we didn’t have a very pressured schedule, we’d just drive around and we’d find one of these fire stations and just kinda come in on them without them knowing about it, that made it more interesting and I’d show them my papers and say I’m inventorying the fire engine. Well you know they got the stock numbers painted right on the side so you’d check it off on the list, �then go sit down with those guys and they’d tell you about their fire station and what they were doing and where the best food was close by, they were always good at that so it was an interesting 17 days on Guam. And some other good active duty; probably the most interesting ones I did were to the pentagon. I was a reserve unit attached to the pentagon, Deputy Chief of Naval Operations, and that was on the ring floor and those people at the pentagon were doing some pretty interesting stuff. For awhile they were working on the U.S. maritime strategy and gosh they had some great guys working on it, trying to figure out what the best way was to confront the Russians if they came out of the baffles, so they put together this strategy that I think helped end the Cold War really. We had to do research into lots of different libraries there at the Pentagon, and that was kind of interesting to see, I spent some time looking at the minutes from the joint Chief of Staff’s meetings at the Pentagon and, you know, Ronald Reagan was in there and I’m reading these things like wow! you know, This is interesting history! Puting that and he would ask me questions like “Did you see anything about how he felt about the Soviet Union? I want more quotes about the evil empire.” stuff like that. (1:10:25) Interviewer: Wow, now when the Gulf War happened, did that have any ripple effects where you were? Not really. Some people got more involved than I did. I know we had to go through sensitivity training, there was a lot of that going on, where we had to be correct in our performance with other people and that kinda got pushed up there. Interviewer: And then at that point is that in dealing with women or people of different races, or? I think mostly with women. The Navy started bringing women into more action roles, so. Interviewer: So did you have women in your unit at Bremerhaven, for instance? No. Interviewer: Were there some on the base that were not in your unit? I don’t believe so. Actually, it was an Army base with a little Navy unit. Interviewer: Okay, so you’re kind of a very specialized group there. Okay, but in the Reserve Units then, you’re getting more women coming into those? �Yes, yes. There’s always, you know, jokes. But you don’t tell jokes because jokes lead to bad feelings. Interviewer: So that was some of the sensitivity training? Yes. Interviewer: I mean, did, as far as you could tell, any of the women have a hard time adjusting or did people not treat them very well? You know, I think it’s hard for women to come into an all men’s situation and it takes some strength of character. And fortunately a lot of them have pretty strong characters and that’s good. As a society I think it’s wonderful to have the female brain as part of our society, like Israel, and respect that contribution to society. You know, it’s gotta be hard on a ship. I never really have experienced official duty aboard on a deployment or something like that with women as part of the operation, but it seems to be working. The exception proves the rule: every once and awhile there’s some kind of a scandal here or a scandal there but gosh I think the Navy’s done a really good job assimilating women into the service. Interviewer: Significantly increases the talent pool. Absolutely! Absolutely. Interviewer: I mean, modern warfare now, so much of it is technical anyway. That’s right! Interviewer: Physical strength is less of an issue. That’s right. That’s right Jim. Interviewer: Alright. Now, let’s see, you had made a set of notes and so forth before coming in here, do you think there’s anything that you were going to talk about that you’ve left out? Gosh, I can’t really… Interviewer: Take a look. �We’ve talked about a lot of good stuff. Um. (Carleton checks his notes.) Not really, I think we’ve pretty much covered everything. My son is in the Reserves now and so the Navy continues. Interviewer: Alright. Well then, I would like to close this by thanking you for taking the time to come and share the story today. Sure Jim, it was fun. (1:13:54) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrownC2290V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Carleton J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-12 Title A name given to the resource Brown, Carleton (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource Carleton Brown was born on October 28, 1944 in New Haven, Connecticut. He graduated high school in 1963. He then began classes the University of Florida for a degree in journalism and communications before enlisting in the Navy in 1966, narrowly dodging the draft. Brown attended Navy Officer Candidate School and Navy Communications School in Newport, Rhode Island. After that, he was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Yorktown out of California. In December 1967, he was shipped out and headed for Japan. His first experiences at sea were tracking a Soviet attack submarine which was shadowing the USS Enterprise and was later diverted to the Sea of Japan after the capture of the USS Pueblo by the North Koreans. In 1968, he was transferred to the Gulf of Tonkin and Yankee Station, near Hanoi, where his duties were to keep watch on all vessels near the Station, remain alert for any enemy submarine activity, and send out mail to the front. Brown also recalled having to keep watch after the HMAS Melbourne and USS Evans collided in the South China Sea in June of 1969. He was soon promoted to Lieutenant Junior Grade and transferred to the USS Kearsarge on which he conducted many of the same duties as he had on the Yorktown. He also periodically went ashore in places like Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines. Brown then applied to learn Russian at the Presidio of Monterey Army Language School, was assigned to a Navy Security Group, and transferred to Bremerhaven, Germany, in 1970. In Germany, he and his wife raised three children and traveled around Europe while also attending to his Navy watch duties. As a part of his duties, Brown tapped into Russian communications in order to predict where and when Soviet forces were operating in the area. After his tour in Germany, the Navy no longer required his services, so he left the service, resumed his university education, but remained in the Navy Reserves. Back at the University of Florida, and then at the Thunderbird School of Global Management in Arizona, Brown acquired his master’s degree in international management and comparative government. He then went to work for Baxter International Healthcare Company in Chicago before going to work for the Stryker and Amway Corporations out of Kalamazoo, Michigan. Brown remained in the Navy Reserves for twenty-eight years before retiring in 1995. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0fbdade44209e7d49e51ddbf886d6541.mp4 bdaad1afe7ac7efbd794887dce4ca865 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee6b3b93ffa5e8e4d911ba0204afa3dd.pdf 22f692aa01d7c4acafba20aad6ca331e PDF Text Text Brockway, Lyle Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Lyle Brockway Length of Interview: (1:28:47) Interviewed by: Wallace Erichsen Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “Today is August the 7th, 2019 and we are at Clark home on Franklin, we’ll be interviewing Lyle Jean Brockway. Lyle was born April 15, 1924 at Vicksburg, Michigan, he served in World War II in the U.S Army Air Corps as a B-17 pilot. Lyle lives at the Clark home on Franklin, his address is 1551 Franklin Street Southeast, room 4060 or 4-06-0 Grand Rapids Michigan, 49506. (1:10) The recording is being made at the Clark home, this interview is part of the Veterans History Project at the library of Congress and is being also done in the auspices of the history department at Grand Valley State University, Allendale, Michigan and I as the interviewer my name is Wallace Erichsen and I’m a volunteer interviewer with the history department at Grand Valley State University. Well, can you give us your full name?” Lyle Jean Brockway, 4-15-24. Interviewer: “And your place of birth?” Near Vicksburg, Michigan. Interviewer: “Okay, and how do you spell your last name?” Capital B-r-o-c-k-w-a-y. Interviewer: “Very good, thank you. Let me ask you, where did you grow up or where did you go to high school, that sort of thing?” �Brockway, Lyle I grew up in rural Vicksburg, various farm settings and I went to Vicksburg High School, before that I went to a one room school Brady Number Five. Interviewer: “In Vicksburg also?” Near Vicksburg. Interviewer: “Did it have a town?” Yes, Vicksburg is a town. Interviewer: “But where the public school was where you went to school.” No, it was out in the country it’s– (3:03) Interviewer: “I see, okay.” And you walked. Interviewer: “No buses?” No buses, no– Dad didn’t have an extra car, you walked. Interviewer: “What did your father do?” He done various things, repair, carpentry, built a couple cabins, worked for a railroad manufacturing company, worked in a grain mill, and he worked for Lee Paper Company for a while. So he done various things, the greatest thing was about 1929 or 30 they rejoiced because he got a job 25 cents an hour driving truck for the Kalamazoo County Road Commission. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “And I assume he stayed with the job for a while.” Yeah, several years. Interviewer: “How many brothers and sisters did you have?” I had four sisters and one brother, three sisters deceased, one brother deceased. Interviewer: “Where were you in the birth order then?” I was number four, I had three older sisters then I came along then I had a younger brother three and a half years younger than my sister is ten years younger. Interviewer: “I see. When did you graduate from high school then?” It’d be May for ‘4– (4:59) Interviewer: “Again when did you graduate from high school in?” I graduated in May of 1942. Interviewer: “Okay, what did you do after high school?” Naturally we lived on a farm and I had a little scholarship to Michigan State, $50 a quarter. Interviewer: “So you went to East Lansing then.” East Lansing. Interviewer: “Right, do you remember what the name of Michigan State was at that time?” �Brockway, Lyle Not particularly, it was always Michigan State to me. Interviewer: “Okay, what did you study?” Agriculture. Interviewer: “Okay, and how long were you there at Michigan State?” How old? Interviewer: “How long, when did you attend?” Well I started in the fall and during the fall season President Hannah promised we would get the chance to take the written test if we want to get in the Air Force and I, farm kid, took the test, passed it, a couple months later he raised to have us go down to Mount Clemens for a physical, passed that. (6:29) I took the term exams for the fall, I had enlisted for the next term but I went in the service. Interviewer: “Was it mandatory that you go in, were you drafted into the service at that point?” No, in the process you start Michigan State’s ROTC then I enlisted reserves unassigned and then somehow I passed these tests for the Air Force and we went to went off. Interviewer: “So that ended your schooling then anyway at the end of the fall term was the end of your schooling at Michigan State.” Basically yes, right. Interviewer: “Okay.” �Brockway, Lyle After Christmas I had to report to 156 Van Buren Street, Chicago. Interviewer: “So that started your active duty then with the–” That’s where I started right there. Interviewer: “Okay, where did you go for basic training then?” Well it’s on one of those sheets but the train I got on in Chicago that night, troop train so we went over to the Mississippi and went alongside that and went down to Biloxi. Interviewer: “Okay, and that’s where you spent several months I’m assuming at basic training?” Few weeks. (8:12) Interviewer: “Just a few weeks?” Yes. Interviewer: “I see, what do you remember about your drill instructors?” Well you’re just– Interviewer: “Anything in particular?” Nothing in particular, I started and your drilling is ROTC so I had some elementary, rudimentary things picked up from ROTC. Interviewer: “So the training continued on basically from–” �Brockway, Lyle Yes. Interviewer: “Your initial ROTC instruction.” That’s one– The first time I remember fainting, you get into the service they got to give you your shots and they don’t care they might be giving you your shot in the left arm and right arm at the same time and it was right after lunch, we went out for drill and got lined up and all at once I fainted and went down in a pile and they said “You better go back and lay in your cot in the barracks and we’ll be back for supper, so that’s the first time, I fainted from all the shots. Interviewer: “It probably was fairly hot down there in Mississippi also right?” Well it wasn’t bad, see that was right in early January probably or late December. Interviewer: “Let me backup a little here Lyle, why did you join the ROTC at Michigan State?” (9:54) Because I was a boy and that’s required. Interviewer: “It was at that time?” Yes. Interviewer: “I see, so you really didn’t have much choice in that then right?” That’s right, no choice [unintelligible] Interviewer: “What did– Can you tell me about any of your experiences in– Your experiences in basic training, anything in particular that stands on your mind? Is something difficult or interesting?” �Brockway, Lyle Nothing, nothing in Biloxi there was just routine, get your shots, get your physical, get your– From your civvies into Army uniform and get ready to go and we went to classification Birmingham I think. The only thing outstanding there was they had what they called– Some trail, it was a physical education thing, a mile and six or seven tenths and you had to jog that or run it or trot it, whatever you want to call it pace. Interviewer: “Was that with your–” We were in the winter time so we got by good but later on two or three people were overcome with exhaustion and one of them died so they altered their training, outlawed that long hot trail. Interviewer: “It was a little bit more than a mile in length then is that right?” Yes. Interviewer: “So after Biloxi you went to Birmingham for classification, now does that mean you got your military special at that point or what do they do in Birmingham?” (12:12) It kind of weeded you out, whether you was gonna be a rifleman or a pilot, navigator, bombardier. Interviewer: “So you really didn’t have your military specialty until you got there.” Oh no. Interviewer: “I see, how did they determine that you would be in the Army Air Corps or as a pilot?” Well you, from this classification, you just progressed on and I think you progressed on until you failed, then you went back to something else. I mean you had your goal– �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “What were you doing though as far as you know proceeding to the next goal?” Nothing special just you’re active and you’re doing the physical training and there’s no speciality yet. Interviewer: “Was it like basic training at the same time physical and–” Yeah, basic training. Interviewer: “Okay, how long were you in Birmingham?” Two or three months. Interviewer: “Okay, so several weeks in Biloxi and then–” (13:33) About same length of time, you’d go there and you’d serve block things and then you’d move on. Interviewer: “Okay, so before you left Birmingham you knew that you would be a pilot, is that right?” No you kept going, in Birmingham you went to– Well I went to a waiting station, Elon College, North Carolina that was just a holding tank because the corps was filled ahead so that you just done your basic things, little homework and things like that. Interviewer: “Where was this in North Carolina?” Elon College. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Okay, again that was kind of an extension of the classification training.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay.” And then I think we went to Nashville. Interviewer: “Okay, again as part of classification [unintelligible]” Yeah. Interviewer: “Nashville, Tennessee. After Nashville where did you go then Lyle?” I don’t know, from Nashville I assume maybe we went right to Avon Park, Florida. (15:10) Interviewer: “Okay, was that for flight training there?” Started our flight training, PT-17 Stearman, same one that President– Flew– What the heck was his name? Bush! Was it Bush that got shot down over in the islands? Same type of plane, that’s what we– Interviewer: “The first President Bush?” Yeah. Interviewer: “George Bush? How long were you there doing–” Basic training I’d say three months. Interviewer: “Okay, basic flight school then right?” �Brockway, Lyle You learned the basic things, take offs, landings, turns, navigate little– Navigation, most basic maneuvers. Interviewer: “Did you have any prior flight training at all, some home training?” Negative, I’d never stepped in an airplane before. Interviewer: “I see, did you start with like the Piper Cub or–” The Stearman. Interviewer: “The Stearman, that was the first–” First one. (16:33) Interviewer: “First plane you learned in then, okay.” That picture shows the five guys that are assigned to Jefferies, he was a civilian pilot and he was to train us in it. Interviewer: “We’ll stop here to– So really again the first plane you flew was the Stearman.” The Stearman, right. Interviewer: “And so like you mentioned you did maneuvers and take offs and landings–” Yeah I just– Interviewer: “In that airplane. Did you progress to any other airplane?” �Brockway, Lyle Not there, no. Interviewer: “Not at Avon Park.” When you graduated from basic training you went to Macon, Georgia, we did. Interviewer: “Now were you commissioned at that point?” Pardon me? Interviewer: “Were you commissioned, did you receive your commission then at Avon Park? Commission is–” No, you just went there and if you graduated from there you get primary basic training and you was there you’d get variable speed propellers and flaps and wheels up and down, things like that. (17:54) Interviewer: “That was at Avon Park also?” No, no, no that’s Macon, Georgia. Interviewer: “Macon, Georgia okay. What rank were you at that point then?” Just a cadet. Interviewer: “Okay, okay what type of aircraft were you flying at Macon was it AT-6 or still the Stearman?” Yeah BT-13 I think, or did we use that number before, I forgot those numbers years past. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “How long were you in Macon Georgia then Lyle?” Oh I’d say three months, etc. Interviewer: “Okay, and again you’re still training in single engine planes at that point? The single engine airplane?” Single engine, right. Interviewer: “Okay, the BT-13 and also the Stearman too at all?” No, the Stearmans are strictly Avon Park. Interviewer: “You had graduated from that, okay. Did you have instructors flying with you on each of your missions– Or each of your training missions?” For just a period of time, he would fly with you until you was familiar with the aircraft and then– And the navigation and the rigamarole in the area and then he had you maybe go with another cadet. (19:26) Give you a little cross country from this little town to that little town to another town and back and land and– Interviewer: “So you’d have some solo time to just practice on your own or with another cadet.” You’d have flight training say in the morning and you’d have ground school in the afternoon and maybe next week you’d reverse it, you’d be in the morning and they’d be in the afternoon. Interviewer: “So that way they’d get– You would have enough aircraft to go around if they split you up to ground school and in flight training.” �Brockway, Lyle And maybe there’d be four people signed to that instructor and he’d take one up and fly with him for a while and come and land and you knew they was coming in you would get your parachute and get out there ready to train– Change so there was no lost motion. Interviewer: “Did you also fly the AT-10 at Macon, Georgia?” No, no, no. Interviewer: “That was later?” Yes, you got to go to advance to go to AT-10s. AT-10 is twin engine, twin engine advanced. Interviewer: “Okay, where did you go after Macon, Georgia then?” Columbus, Mississippi. (20:59) Interviewer: “Columbus, okay.” AT-10s. Interviewer: “That was a two person crew, a pilot and co-pilot with that aircraft?” Right, that’s what we did, yes. Interviewer: “And you also would have an instructor–” Yeah. Interviewer: “I’m assuming with you. Okay, how long were you in Columbus?” Oh nine weeks, three months, whatever it took there to get through there. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Okay, and again you were still an aviation cadet at that point, is that right?” That’s where– When I graduated from AT-10s I got my commission there on the 15th of April, 19– Interviewer: “At age 20, on your 20th birthday is that right?” On my 20th birthday. Interviewer: “Okay so you’re commissioned as a 2nd lieutenant on your 20th birthday, April 15th, 1944. Correct. (22:07) Interviewer: “We gotta back up chronologically a little bit here Lyle, ask you about, I think what they call the civilian pilot training course where civilians were taught at local flight schools and flying a J-3 cub, you know a smaller single engine airplane, but you did have that sort of training at all?” Negative, nothing. Interviewer: “Nothing of that–” The Stearman, to the AT-10, to the– No it was the Stearman to the BT-13. Interviewer: “BT-13” To the AT-10. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “AT-10. Okay, do you remember any of your instructors, your flight instructors at any point along your flight training?” I just have the picture of the one, of Jeffries of the Stearman of basic. Interviewer: “Okay, well we’ll get to that later, maybe make a recording of that. Okay, after commissioning, where did you go?” I had three or four days to get to Pyote, Texas. Interviewer: “Okay, now were you going to like an Army air field there or Army Air Corps field Plano?” It’s a regular base, they were just short of being ready to go overseas and their copilot went in the hospital. Well they can’t hold up nine guys so here’s a good green cadet graduated, let’s get him. We went there– (23:54) Interviewer: “So you joined an existing crew then right?” Right. Interviewer: “Yeah, was there actually a name for the air base there at Plano?” Pyote? Interviewer: “Just Plano, Plano Air Base right?” Well they called it the capital– Rattlesnake capital of the Air Force now. Interviewer: “Is there an Air Force base there now in Plano?” �Brockway, Lyle Yes, yes that’s where I received my extensive training as a co-pilot. Interviewer: “Okay.” We– The second or third day I was there we were assigned to take a Major Gibson who had just completed his 25 missions, he wanted a ride back to Fort Worth. So we were the ones that was designated to take him back to Fort Worth. Interviewer: “Now was this in a B-17?” Yes, and just a few minutes after our take off and headed for Fort Worth and altitude and everything, he says to the regular pilot you better let him in there and all he’s gotta do is keep this thing on a heading and altitude and so I got my first experience of the wheel of a B-17. Interviewer: “So you were actually a pilot flying then with a major on board right?” (25:35) Right, and then as we approached Fort Worth he told me to get out of the seat and he took over the pilot seat and our ordinary pilot took over the co-pilot’s seat, we landed, and I don’t think we even stopped our engines. Major Gibson got out with his duffle bag, whatever he had, and we were cleared to go back to Pyote and we took off and went to Pyote. Now I’m a full fledged trained co-pilot, why that story is relevant is Wally’s movie and everything and the extensive training a co-pilot gets, makes me chuckle. Interviewer: “With just one flight, one landing right?” Well take off and part way to keep our own altitude and– Interviewer: “Sure.” �Brockway, Lyle Sure it’s heading, got out of there and when we took of from Fort Worth I was in the co-pilot seat, if anything had happened to the pilot I’d have been– Interviewer: “You were in charge, would’ve been in charge. So with that one flight from Plano to Fort Worth and back you were fully qualified.” That’s what they said. Interviewer: “Okay.” Fortunately I never had the occasion to put that expertise to use. Interviewer: “Well at Plano, Texas then Lyle did you do other calibration training?” That’s what we did in Pyote, flew around brand new aircraft, flew it around and checked the various instruments so if they were a problem the flight crew could get them changed. (27:40) Interviewer: “Make sure they also check fuel consumption.” Well we saved fuel consumption because we were going from Pyote to Kearney, Nebraska. Brand new B-17 and we checked out all the instruments there and they said, you know, check out your gas consumption flying from Kearney, Nebraska to Manchester, New Hampshire to see if one plane– One engine gobbles up more gas than the rest and see if it needs any adjustment or anything like that. Interviewer: “The flight to New Hampshire then was that just a flight within the U.S was that on the way to Europe?” Oh yeah you know from Kearney, Nebraska to New Hampshire and then we was there, I don’t know, three or four days, five days and we were on our way to England. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Okay, so it wasn’t a return flight to Plano or anything like that?” No, no, no. Interviewer: “How long were you in Plano then?” What? Interviewer: “How long were you in Plano, Texas before departing from Europe?” We was just a short time in Pyote, Texas then we went to Kearney, Nebraska we was there probably– Maybe two or three weeks? I don’t know. Interviewer: “Did you fly elsewhere around the U.S?” (29:25) Just from Kearney, Nebraska around, getting used to the aircraft and flight instruments. Interviewer: “Okay, and then from New Hampshire you flew over the Atlantic.” Well we went to– I think we went to Iceland and then we made one other stop but I don’t know where. Interviewer: “Would that have been in Ireland at all?” I don’t know, I don’t have the least recollection but the next one was Kearney, Nebraska– I mean Kimbolton. Interviewer: “Kimbolton, that’s RAF Kimbolton in the U.K.” England. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Now was that near Bedford, England, Kimbolton?” 60 miles north of London, I don’t know where Bedford is. Interviewer: “Okay, how many other airplanes were there at Kimbolton or how many– Was it a squat part of the squadron?” Well it was the 379th Bomb Group, that’s where we were headquartered. Interviewer: “I’m sorry what was the name of the bomb– Number of the bomb group?” 379th bomb group. Interviewer: “Okay.” Then about four aircraft per squadron, then we had– One, two, three, four, about four we’d fly out of there with, about four squadrons. (31:05) Interviewer: “Okay, so the four squadrons made a group then, is that right?” Well that made one element of the group. Interviewer: “Oh, I see.” Just up the road a ways is another aircraft, Moultrie which was another fully equipped B-17 field. Interviewer: “Mhmm, similar– About similar in size then to Kimbolton where Moultrie was?” What? �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Moultrie was about the same size–” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “As Kimbolton.” No contact with them except when you might have to take off and gain altitude in a cloud cover and you’d be circling the air base with your instruments and then all at once you feel a violent interruption– Disturbance in the air and you know someone just passed through there, fortunately no one tried to pass at the same time. Interviewer: “If they were there at the same time you were it’d be a little more than just a little bit of turbulence, you’d have little aluminum flying around. When did you arrive then at– Remember roughly when you arrived at Kimbolton?” No I don’t but we can look at the list of missions and I was probably there two, three days before we flew the first mission. (32:49) Yeah, Interviewer: “Okay Lyle you arrived in England and two or three days later you were scheduled for a mission.” 7-16-44 was the first one. Interviewer: “Where did you go on that mission?” Munich it says, Munich, Germany, nine hours and ten minutes. Interviewer: “And again you were a co-pilot on that mission, is that right?” Yes, I was a co-pilot, I never flew a mission as first pilot. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Oh, I see.” We never had any incidents, never needed. Interviewer: “So you’re a 2nd lieutenant then you eventually got promoted to 1st lieutenant.” Yeah, somewhere along the line, I don’t know where. Interviewer: “But you remained a co-pilot though even after that. Okay, how many missions would you fly in a week? You didn’t fly every day did you?” Sometimes we did, like July we flew six– July 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20, and 21. So that would be daily, that would be six, then we got four days off 21 to 25, then we got three days off to the 28th, and then eight– Three, four, five, six, seven, eight they were consecutive missions. (34:30) Interviewer: “Now each of these missions was over Germany, is that right?” Well depending– Let me see, all those were. Interviewer: “How many hours average were the missions then, I mean were they eight, nine hours or more or less?” I don’t know the average but the 35 missions would equal out to 254 hours. Interviewer: “And this was between July 16th and October 19th, 1944 right?” Yes, October 19th. Interviewer: “Lyle is referring to his listed missions that the operations officer at the time gave to you and the other crew members right?” �Brockway, Lyle Pardon me? Interviewer: “That’s the list of missions– Or tour of operations is the subject line dated October 19, 1944 listing 35 missions.” First one is so and so and the last 35th one is so and so. Interviewer: “On October 19, ‘44. The average is six, seven, eight hours, here’s one to Orleans, France five and a half hours.” Yeah that’s just across the channel. Interviewer: “One of the shorter ones. There’s Caen, France, Rouen, France which is basically over the channel. Now you mentioned the most of your missions were some what uneventful, your navigator got you over the target and–” (36:24) Yeah. Interviewer: “The bombardier–” We never was really assaulted by Messerschmitt wolfpack. Interviewer: “Did you encounter flak very often?” Flak? Practically every time [overlapping chatter] A few there in France when they was liberating that area, they didn’t have time to set their flak guns up, the 3rd Army was wiping them off. Interviewer: “Now you mentioned at one point the flak got pretty close to your airplane right?” �Brockway, Lyle What? Interviewer: “At one point flak got pretty close and actually damaged your aircraft wing.” Yeah, well one time one of the pieces of flak shot up and come right through the wing, fortunately it did not hit a gas tank or a structural member of the wing so all we done is fly with a damaged air foil, hole in the wing. Interviewer: “How big was the hole in the wing, about as big as a desk or a table?” Yeah, about one and half times a cushion of them chairs. Interviewer: “So maybe four feet square, something like that?” I wouldn’t say four feet, three foot. (37:47) Interviewer: “Three foot square?” Say two and a half to three feet. Interviewer: “Okay, and again as you mentioned it didn’t hit a structural member or a gas tank, it didn’t hurt the engine or anything at all.” No, just went through and ruined that airfoil wings, create a rough pattern around that torn wing. Interviewer: “So the wing kind of dropped a little bit probably?” No not the wing, no just the air going over it because that’s the wing of stable. Interviewer: “So you’d have some drag going on that side.” �Brockway, Lyle Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, you have to put it opposite rudder. So what– Okay you have a hole in the wing, what did you– What did you do then, where did you go?” Well the 3rd Army had just taken over the Brussels area and so the airfield was ready for use and rather than chance it in the English channel we headed for the airfield there. Interviewer: “At Brussels?” Yes. Interviewer: “So you landed there at [unintelligible] with a damaged wing.” Yeah, successful. (39:05) Interviewer: “Yeah.” Successful landing– Interviewer: “Let me ask you, did you have– Did you use radios like radio control, did you have a control tower that you called or anything like that?” Well evidently we had control contact with the Brussels towers. Interviewer: “But generally you operated under radio silence I assume.” Silence right, yeah you didn’t talk much. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “But I assumed you would’ve had maps or whatever would’ve shown where the airfield was and probably the frequency of the control tower.” Navigator, bombardier would have maps and have that all down. Interviewer: “I see, so you successfully landed, how long did you spend in Brussels at the airfield there?” Well we landed and then we went through interrogation and supper and was assigned a sleeping quarters and next day about noon they said C-54 will be in not long after a while and pick you up and take you back to England. Interviewer: “C-54 or C-37?” (40:13) C-47, just a passenger plane. Interviewer: “DC-3.” Yeah there you go DC-3. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay so you got a free ride, I say free ride, got passenger ride back to England.” Yes. Interviewer: “Back to– They take you right back to Kimbolton then?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, what happened then did your commanding officer get mad at you for ruining the wing?” �Brockway, Lyle No, we just got the night off and went flying the next day. Interviewer: “Got a new airplane.” Well a different airplane yeah. Interviewer: “Different airplane. Okay, so next day you had another mission there to fly.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Do you remember what mission that was where you got the hole in the wing?” I can’t– I’m looking at it and I can’t tell which one. (41:10) Interviewer: “Okay, when was the only time you didn’t get back to Kimbolton?” That was the only time, when that bomb went off in the wing– Or that aircraft went off in the wing it was the only time we didn’t return to Kimbolton from a mission. Interviewer: “What was interesting about the Peter Monday [Peenemunde] mission?” Well the length of it and then the route going over the North Sea and north of Kiel– Keeve, is it Kiel or Keeve? [it’s Kiel] We went north of there and crossed a little piece of land and back down to the Black [Baltic] Sea and the thing that makes you stick out and the thing that makes you stick out in our mind is the converter burning out, creating smoke in a cockpit. Interviewer: “Just smoke not flame though right?” No, never flame. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “No burning.” Electrical apparatus. Interviewer: “Where was your flight engineer at that time when you noticed the smoke?” Where was he? Interviewer: “Where was the flight engineer?” Who or where? Interviewer: “No, where was he in the airplane?” In the ball turret. (42:30) Interviewer: “Down below in the–” Yeah, yeah he was a shorter compact little guy and he frequently got in the ball turret and traded with the other guy to be upstairs gunner. Interviewer: “Was he able to get the diverter?” Well he just cut it loose like you would and he sat there. Interviewer: “So they literally snip the wires then is that what you mean?” Yeah I think that’s what he did. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Okay, the mission to Peter Monday what shortage– What was the target on that mission, do you recall?” Well that’d be the buzz bomb, Peter Monday [Peenemunde] that’s why we went up there to get the buzz bomb shot. Interviewer: “The V2 plant, buzz bomb plant. Okay, any other missions you particularly recall were of interest?” Basically routine. Interviewer: “Did you ever lose an engine or have an engine shut down?” No, we never had to feather an engine and come in. Interviewer: “Yeah, well at least you had four of them.” (43:47) Four, they had excellent excellent ground crew so that aircraft was ready to go in the morning and when we landed they wanted a report and they got right on if there was any repair and that plane was generally ready for the next day. Interviewer: “Let me ask you, now your ground crew how many members would be on the ground crew, would that vary?” I would guess around five, maybe six. Interviewer: “Okay, and how many crew members did you have in the aircraft?” I think we had a full complement of ten. Interviewer: “Ten? Would be pilot, co-pilot–” �Brockway, Lyle Engineer, pilot, co-pilot, bombardier, navigator, engineer, radio operator, tail gunner and two side gunners. Interviewer: “Waist gunners, is that what they call them?” Yeah. Interviewer: “And then a ball turret and then did you have a top turret?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, well the commissioned officers then would be the pilot, co-pilot–” Navigator, and bombardier. (44:58) Interviewer: “So we’d have just four commissioned officers on board?” Right. Interviewer: “And the rest were enlisted–” Noncommissioned. Interviewer: “Crew members. Okay, let me ask you what was the unit you were with, the squadron number and bomb group?” 379th bomb group, 526 squadron. Interviewer: “526?” �Brockway, Lyle 526. Interviewer: “Okay, how many– You had four airplanes in a squadron?” Yes I think that was it. Interviewer: “Okay, even your squadron then was– Well even in your bomb group but I would say squadrons roughly the size of like an infantry company I assume as far as the number of personnel.” Well I think we had a lead and a right and a left and a low. Interviewer: “Did you have any casualties among your squadron?” Not that I’m aware of. (46:18) Interviewer: “Okay, no aircraft were lost or people had to bail out?” No, we brought them back, nobody bailed out. Interviewer: “Okay, and you had mentioned earlier that you had never encountered any Messerschmitts or German fighters or anything like that.” No, we never had a direct attack by the German aircraft. Interviewer: “Okay, a couple of other kinds of perfunctory questions here Lyle, were you ever wounded in combat?” Negative. Interviewer: “Were you ever taken prisoner?” �Brockway, Lyle Negative. Interviewer: “Okay, did– Well let me ask you this, did your turret gunners or tail gunner or anything like that, did they ever have to fire at the enemy, do you recall?” Not that I’m aware of. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah if you didn’t have Messerschmitts coming at you–” No. Interviewer: “Probably not.” We were a replacement crew so the heavy fighting had been already completed out over Germany. (47:45) Interviewer: “I see. Were you awarded any individual medals or citations?” Well Air Force medal, things like that had practically all the crew that was on it, consistently received the Air Medal and Bronze Star and a good, whatever the other one was. Interviewer: “The award was the Distinguished Flying Cross right?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now did that go to all members of the crew or was that specifically awarded to you?” I think if you flew all those missions you got the award. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Okay.” I think– Interviewer: “But to be awarded a– Like the Bronze Star that would be for an individual.” That– We didn’t get any bronze stars. Interviewer: “Okay, so basically just Distinguished Flying Cross to keep your airplane and crew safe and complete the missions and return.” At Avon Park they told us if anything went wrong to take our feet off the rudder and let loose of the aileron and sit back, the little plane will ride itself and we had one case for one cadet, did practicing spins solo and for some reason he got excited and bailed out and the plane righted itself and flew out to the Atlantic. (49:35) Then the basic training at Macon the biggest thing we was practicing night take off and landings and we were lined up to clear the runway and go and all at once over the top of us comes a big ‘ole C-47 with a plane that kind of lost his way and he was supposed to go to a neighboring field. Interviewer: “So the aircraft landed over the top of you right?” Well we were just about ready to give it our gas and go down a highway– Runway and he was right on top of us, if we had simultaneously give it the gas to go we’d have been right under him, squashed. I can’t remember anything happening exciting, it advanced AT-10s, that was just getting used to twin engines dual controls a few things like that. Interviewer: “I’m assuming an instructor would like pull the throttle back on one of the engines.” Yeah. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “You had to identify which engine was out and–” Yeah. Interviewer: “He’d correct you.” Yeah, he’d be going along and all at once something’s wrong and you started looking around and– You reach down quickly turn that back on. Interviewer: “Okay, let me ask you a little bit about life in the Army Air Corps, for instance how did you keep in touch with your family?” Well back then my folks didn’t even have a phone, you had to just postal, write a letter, write a card, Interviewer: “Okay, did you use what they called “v-mail” where they took a photograph of your mail?” (51:38) I don’t recall having v-mail. Interviewer: “Okay, so you sent letters and you got letters from your family?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, what was the food like in the Army Air Corps?” As I recall, for me it was very adequate. Interviewer: “Okay, did you have a regular mess hall then for each squadron did they have one for the group?” �Brockway, Lyle Oh yeah, you had a regular place to go eat and time. Interviewer: “What were your quarters like then, your living quarters there Lyle at Kimbolton?” Oh I think they were just a quonset hut. Interviewer: “Was it a quonset hut or a nissen hut?” Assigned different beds, different little areas, you had your own bed and you had a place to put your personal items and change of clothes and that was it. Interviewer: “Do they call it a nissen hut or a quonset hut?” Well we all just called it a quonset hut. (52:50) Interviewer: “Did you have adequate supplies as far as ammunition I guess, bombs?” Far as I know. Far as I know we had plenty of everything. Interviewer: “Okay, did you feel any pressure or stress like before or during the missions or even between missions?” No, I didn’t personally, just it was a great experience, things that was happening and you was just a part of it and you’d go to bed at night and they’d wake you up in the morning and your assignment for today is and you’d go and complete that and come back and have your meal and go to bed and they’d come and call you in the morning if you was going to go. Interviewer: “Let me ask you about these missions, a lot of them are– Many are eight, nine hours and that kind of thing, what time of day would you– What time in the morning would you get up for instance for a long mission like that.” �Brockway, Lyle Oh seemed like to me anywhere from two to six, two o’clock in the morning till six. Interviewer: “0200 to 0600 up then, and then would you have a meal right away– I mean your breakfast right away and then have meteorology briefing?” Well it was the breakfast is so and so, interrogation is so and so, and– Interviewer: “Now you mention the word interrogation, do you mean briefing are they debriefing you on the mission?” Yeah, briefing is– Interviewer: “Okay, the briefing would be–” [unintelligible] And your whole squadron would be there and everybody would know who was leading, who was flight, and where your position was in the flight formation and– (54:47) Interviewer: “Would that be the first time at the briefing, the first time they would tell you where the mission was or did you know that in advance?” No, that would be the closest to any information of where you was going and if it was a particularly known anti-aircraft stuff like that there’d be a moan going across that room when they said we were going to this area. Interviewer: “I assume at the same time you’d be briefed as to the weather, meteorology.” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, well was there anything you did specifically for good luck, you know before your missions, after the missions, whatever?” �Brockway, Lyle I’m not aware of any, you just had confidence in your other crew member, fortunately our first pilot on the majority of our missions was very good. Straight guy, never come in drunk or didn’t smoke and all that sort of stuff so very dependable. Interviewer: “So you could count on him then.” Yeah, after the war he said– Talking about it and he said “Well I prayed for you all the time.” Interviewer: “Let’s see, did you have any of like entertainment there at your air base? Did you have like USO shows come through or anything like that?” I only recall one, one or two USO shows, one of them the next morning was a disaster because evidently someone imbibed it too heavy and one of the gals, a British gal, got thrown into a cesspool and they were trying to weed out who could find her. That’s blinking, is it supposed to blink? (57:05) Interviewer: “I think it’s getting toward the end of the tape.” Good? Interviewer: “You said the MPs were looking for suspects?” Suspects, yeah you should’ve been there you could’ve got a job. Interviewer: “Did you do anything to entertain yourselves– Among yourselves?” Pardon me? Interviewer: “I mean did you do anything to entertain yourselves as crewman, I mean did you play basketball or–” �Brockway, Lyle Well you always had the card games going, now and then some of them– A very small majority that I know of, had dice but I never got involved in any of those. Interviewer: “Did you get a chance to go on leave, like R&R like to London or any other cities?” We went down to London and we had a three day leave. Interviewer: “How often were you able to do that?” I recall only once. Interviewer: “Okay, and that was after the main part of the blitz then is that right? In London, was London being bombed at the time by Germany?” (58:23) Oh that was– That really calmed down by then. Interviewer: “Oh yeah, did you– Were you able to do any other travel while you were in England?” I didn’t, no and I’m not aware our crew did. Interviewer: “Your missions end here in– Well that last one was October 19th, 1944. What happened after that, did you fly back to the United States?” Well you went through the necessary paperwork, I was on a boat– Ship. Interviewer: “Came back by ship, I see. Remember the name of the ship you were on?” No I do not. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Okay, where did you come ashore then in the United States, where’d you come into port?” Well I figure on Staten Island, somewhere along there. Interviewer: “So New York and that was after 35 missions, was that the number of missions you needed before you could come back to the United States?” 35 was your tour duty. Interviewer: “I see, so they didn’t extend you I mean you didn’t get to 32 or 33 missions and–” I suppose you could volunteer for extra, that would be where that case was, the goal was 35 missions and you was done and this captain come around with the enticement if you sign on for, as I recall, ten more missions or more missions he said “I’ll see that you get promoted to captain.” (59:55) Well after going through that no big problem why should I stick my neck out for ten more missions? Interviewer: “And I assume if you’d made captain you would have been the aircraft commander then is that right?” Probably yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, so you declined that specific offer. Yeah, what did you do when you got back to the United States, what kind of assignment did you have then?” Well went to California for assignment and then went to the training command. Interviewer: “Where did you go in California, what city?” �Brockway, Lyle Just south of Burbank, Santa Ana. Interviewer: “So this is the beginning of tape two in the interview of Lyle Brockway for the Veteran History Project interview being recorded on August 7, 2019. Lyle let me ask you during your time particularly in England and you know, I suppose flying over Germany and France, did you take any photographs during your tour duty?” I never had a camera, I never took one, I didn’t keep a log like somebody did. Interviewer: “Okay, no photos and shouldn’t have kept– Did you keep a log book then of your flying time?” I didn’t, no. Interviewer: “I see.” (1:02:00) Our radio operator had a log of everything. Interviewer: “Oh I see.” He was just that type of guy. Interviewer: “What did you think of your fellow officers and soldiers or airmen that you flew with as far as their ability as crewmen?” Well our– That would be influenced by your interactions and I had a first rate pilot strong and he flew all those missions and he was still a 1st lieutenant and the navigator he was good at his profession but I don’t know otherwise and then towards the end they started putting an extra gunner in the front and taking the navigator out unless you were a lead aircraft. So the actual contact with the other personnel I thought was very satisfactory all the way. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “So you and the enlisted members that were the waist gunner and ball gunner and tail gunner that’s your thing. Yeah they’ve done their signed duty and that’s all you really can ask. Interviewer: “Did your aircraft have a nose gun installed?” Yeah, we had a nose gun. Interviewer: “Okay, was that normally manned by the navigator or engineer?” Well the guns in front were generally bombardier and navigator handled those. Interviewer: “I see.” (1:03:44) Until later on when things got less hectic, then they replaced the navigator or could replace the bombardier but if you’re gonna do a group bombing all you gotta do is have someone to coordinate, open the bomb doors, and drop them out. Interviewer: “Was the bombardier and the navigator, was that one position or two positions?” Two positions. Interviewer: “I see, okay. Okay you’re back in California you mentioned you know after arriving back in the U.S. Were you at a training command at that point, where you were doing training?” Well California was just reassignment there under a very short space of time. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Oh I see.” Go there, check in, stall around for a few days and get your papers to go back to Macon, Georgia, come in at Staten Island, go to Santa Ana, California and get reassigned to Macon, Georgia. Interviewer: “What did you do in Macon then on the second tour of Macon.” Well I started in the training command and was there a few days and then I got sent down to Waco, Texas for contact flying instructor. Interviewer: “Contact flying?” Contact, no instrument, no hoods, no anything like that just contact so you– Interviewer: Visualize.” (1:05:21) Visual yeah, you could take a cadet out and fly around with him. Interviewer: “Were you at McConnell Air Force Base in Waco? [unintelligible]” Name, I don’t– The name don’t sound familiar, all I knew was Waco. Interviewer: “So you’re at Waco, Texas, how long did you spend there in Waco?” About nine weeks. Interviewer: “I see, okay and you’re an instructor then for contact visual.” �Brockway, Lyle Then I– Yeah instructor I go into training command and give instructions and I just got back in good shape, two or three weeks and I signed to go to Bryan, Texas for instrument flying instructor. Interviewer: “Now was the multi engine instrument or were you–” Well they did pull the hood down over the guy’s face and he’d have to do various things relying on the instruments in the aircraft. Interviewer: “How long were you Bryan then?” About nine weeks I guess. Interviewer: “About nine weeks. Okay, where did you go after that then?” I don’t really know where I went but it was the Air Transport Command. Interviewer: “I’m sorry, Air Transport Command you said?” (1:06:47) Air Transport, yeah. Interviewer: “I see.” And like I went to Walnut Ridge, I went down to Savanna and got a P-47 and flew it to Walnut Ridge in Arkansas and then we took a PQ– No, ugly duckling aircraft C, I was assigned co-pilot on that flight we went from Miami to L.A with an old civilian seasoned pilot that knew all about that aircraft and– Interviewer: “So what kind of aircraft was that?” I can’t think of it. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Okay I’m sorry what kind of aircraft?” PBY. Interviewer: “The Catalina?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Made by Consolidated Aircraft?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, you flew that from Miami you said to Los Angeles?” Yeah, we stopped in New Orleans and somewhere else and we flew PQ-14s from various little fields up to Oklahoma City for storage and then I was called in to be relieved of duty. Interviewer: “That’s the end of your term of service for the Army Air Corps then?” (1:08:34) Yeah that’s it. Interviewer: “Okay, when was that then that you were discharged?” Oh about November of– ‘41, ‘42 I guess, it’s on one of them sheets. Interviewer: “Well then about November ‘45 after V-J day that you were discharged.” Yeah. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “About in there. Okay, and then I’m assuming you returned back to Kalamazoo or Vicksburg is that right?” Yeah, went home. Interviewer: “Okay, what did you do when you initially got home then Lyle?” Well not– Didn’t do anything right away till I got interested in a young lady, then I had money– Had to have money for dates and I got– Knocked on doors and got a job at Consumers Power. Interviewer: “Did you go back to college at all?” No, no I did not. Interviewer: “Okay, so several months later you came on with Consumers Power?” Consumers Power. Interviewer: “Okay, and that turned out to be your lifelong occupation right?” (1:09:55) There it was and I kept going up the ladder, there was no use going to college, I couldn’t have bettered myself by going to college. I was getting a daily, weekly, whatever you want to say salary and promotions and all the good stuff that long term employment. Interviewer: “What was your position initially then with Consumers Power?” Initially? Interviewer: “Yeah, initially.” Ground man. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Ground man or–” Ground man, you dug the holes, put the poles in, set the anchors down, helped load the truck, and do everything but climb the poles and drive. Then I got to be a truck driver and then you got to be a truck driver– What’d they call it, I forget what the next classification was anyway you could use the winch line. Interviewer: “Oh I see.” Before you couldn’t use the winch line because you was just a truck driver, and then went to B lineman which is you done all the below things and worked with low voltage, up to 480 volts. Interviewer: “What did the B stand for?” Just you were– You weren’t the top lineman so you was a B, at one place at one time they had what they call C linemen and you’d go out and build lines– Not energized, didn’t have to. B linemen could work on those things like come to the house and different things like that. (1:11:50) Interviewer: “How many years did you have with Consumers Power, which became Consumers Energy right?” Get out in ‘48 or ‘49? Oh roughly, I don’t know 40 years. Interviewer: “40 years? Okay, what year did you retire?” ‘83 I think. Interviewer: “I’m sorry, ‘83?” �Brockway, Lyle ‘83. Interviewer: “1983, okay about 40 years or so. What was your final position then with Consumers Power?” I was a district superintendent stationed in Cadillac, Michigan, got charged with the maintenance and construction of electrical equipment in Cadillac, Claire, Prudenville, and– Cadillac… I guess I need a state map I’m forgetting these things, Cadillac– Interviewer: “Well that’s alright, what were some of your other duty stations, you mentioned you’re in Traverse City and what other duty stations were you in with Consumers Power throughout the state?” Well, Kalamazoo, Flint, Manistee, Traverse City, and Cadillac. Interviewer: “Now you mentioned earlier just briefly that you came back, got out of the Army Air Corps and you said you met a young lady, when were you married then?” (1:14:08) July 5th about ‘40– I don’t know, ‘47? Interviewer: “1947, okay.” Something like that. Interviewer: “What was your wife’s name then?” My wife’s name is Roberta Mae. Interviewer: “M-A-E?” �Brockway, Lyle M-A-E. Interviewer: “Okay, Brockway then right. Yeah, and then she’s still living in your family home, is that right?” She and her first husband started building that house in 1953, moved in in 1954. Interviewer: “Here in Grand Rapids?” Right, he died later on with cancer and she was a single widowed lady for about five to six years, I came along in 22–23 years ago, that’d be 23 years ago. Interviewer: “Your first wife’s name?” Maria M-A-R-I-A-M. Interviewer: “M-A-R-I-A-M?” (1:15:45) M-A-R-I-A middle initial M. Interviewer: “Okay, Maria M. Brockway. Okay, and how many children did you have?” We had five. Interviewer: “Okay Lyle, how many children did you and Maria have?” We had four, Kenneth, Robert, Michael, and Ann. Interviewer: “Okay, and how many grandchildren do you have?” Kenneth has two, Robert has two, Michael has four, and Ann has two. Ten? �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “We can do the math. Okay, life after the service to back up a little bit you told me you did not return to college because you really didn’t need it with Consumers Energy.” I got a job for 87 and a half cents an hour. Interviewer: “That’s big money at that time right?” Absolutely, when you’re worried about a pair of shoes for the kids and then you’d stand by, the phone would ring “Hey can you come into work? We got a transformer that burnt out.” Or car hit a pole or– So you’d go in, get a little overtime and then all at once on the paycheck day you had the money for the shoes. Interviewer: “Did you make any close friends when you were in the service, people you would’ve stayed in touch with after?” (1:17:52) The only one I would– Till Strom died, Robert Strom in St.Paul Minnesota, he was a pilot. Interviewer: “His last name is Strong?” Strom S-T-R-O-M, and the other one was Barney Willis– Willis, Barney radio operator Bath, New York. Interviewer: “Okay I’m sorry, Willis is his last name?” Barney B-A-R-N-E-Y, now he might have just died on me, I don’t know I haven’t heard from him. I should try to call him up but this rigamarole of getting exiled over here to his Clark home is– Interviewer: “So Robert Strom then was your–” �Brockway, Lyle Pilot, 1st pilot. Interviewer: “Pilot in command then during the time that you were over there. Okay and Willis is also in your crew is that right?” He was a radio operator. Interviewer: “Yeah, you kept in touch with him then throughout the years?” Yeah well there was a period of time then that we had to go to Colorado Springs, my boy and wife were gonna go or a 20th anniversary or something, Hawaiian Islands, and grandpa and grandma went out to babysit and then we, while we was there somehow we got in touch with a retiree and he got us the numbers and we got going to the 379th bomb group reunion group and I went down– Went to a few of their reunions. (1:19:44) Interviewer: How many– I mean several reunions you went to?” San Antonio, and Indianapolis, and a few more I can’t think of, few more. Interviewer: “Did you join any veterans organizations after the war?” Negative. Interviewer: “Let me just ask you Lyle, how did your experiences in the service affect your life after the war and you know you’re thinking of the military and military service in general?” How did my military service affect my civilian life? �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “Well civilian life and also your views of the military and military service in general?” Which one is having the effect, work or military? Interviewer: “Well either or.” Well I don’t know the effect of any of it, you was born and raised from your home background, you’re taught to work, honesty, beyond time and all those things and you use them right on through all your years of labor. You’re there in the morning with your lunch pail eight o’clock, and cooperate as much as you could and– Interviewer: “Did it affect your views of war at all, I mean just generally your views of war, you know the wars we went through later in Korea, Vietnam, or you know even the Persian Gulf?” I don’t think we’ve ever discussed anything like that, it was just an experience and this farm boy was just another farm boy and his number, if I hadn’t have been in the B-17 I’d have in the infantry or been here or there, just like other young unmarried 20 year olds. (1:22:08) Interviewer: “I think you’re saying basically where you were needed.” Where we were– Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, well is there anything else you would like to cover or talk about before we conclude the interview?” I guess not, we’ve covered families and we’ve covered work and we covered the uneventful military thing, 25– 35 missions and things exploding in the wing for excitement where people had– Were– They– That’s the same as being shot at in the ground. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “That’s right.” Except they didn’t have them to hit our aircraft and– Interviewer: “You really did have a puncture wound.” You just got up in the morning and you didn’t have any choice, you got up in the morning and went again. Interviewer: “Okay, hey Lyle what is this document then? It says it’s an Army of the United States separation qualification record. I don’t want to move it, I just want to leave it.” Well I can’t see it, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Interviewer: “So this document then shows your– The type of qualifications you had as far as a multi engine pilot, B-17 pilot, and also well single engine aircraft pilot and aircraft maintenance officer then, and this is page two of your separation qualification record. (1:24:10) It shows your various duty assignments throughout your time in the Army Air Corps. Now this document is from the operations officer and it shows your list of missions, 35 missions over Germany and France between July 16, 1944 and October 19, 1944. Total of 35 missions, 254 hours 40 minutes. Lyle this appears to be a newspaper article when you were awarded the Distinguished Flying Crosses right?” Yes. Interviewer: “Was this from the local newspaper in Kalamazoo?” Yes, I believe it. �Brockway, Lyle Interviewer: “I see, and you mentioned earlier that this, this Distinguished Flying Cross was awarded to all the crew members is that right?” More or less, as far as I know. Interviewer: “Okay, and Lyle you mentioned this photograph was taken at Avon Park, Florida. What kind of aircraft is this in the background?” That’s a Stearman. Interviewer: “Stearman.” Biplane. Interviewer: “Okay, and this is you is that right?” That’s right, instructor is the little guy. Interviewer: “And these are other cadets then?” (1:25:50) The third one in from my side is the instructor, Jeffries. Interviewer: “I see.” So he had five kids, five young guys to teach. Interviewer: “And everybody else including yourself were cadets at that point.” Yeah, yep. Interviewer: “And this photograph you said is your crew.” �Brockway, Lyle Yeah, B-17 crew. Interviewer: “And this is you, is that right Lyle?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, this is your pilot.” Pilot. Interviewer: “What was his name?” Robert Strom. Interviewer: “Strom.” St.Paul. Interviewer: “Any other members you recall specifically?” (1:26:37) Well I know on the left Louie Ness and then the next guy was Marty Neilson but outside of that picture he was in the hospital, he didn’t go with us. Interviewer: “I see.” The other guys did. Interviewer: “This is the reverse of the photograph of your crew in front of your B-17 with the names listed.” �Brockway, Lyle Yeah. I got a book home or I did have before– Interviewer: “Okay, here are some photographs of you in training, is this you in the cockpit?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and a trainer single engine training aircraft, and this is after commissioning?” That’s returning from overseas. Interviewer: “Oh I see.” That’s when I was assigned to Santa Ana for that short space. Interviewer: “And that’s your B-17 and Brussels. (1:27:46) Yep. Interviewer: “With a hole in the wing.” Right. Interviewer: “And a little bit of, it looks like scrap metal above and below it after being shot with flak.” Right. Interviewer: “We’ve been interviewing Lyle Brockway as a Veterans History Project interview, Lyle served in the U.S Army Air Corps during World War II as a B-17 pilot �Brockway, Lyle over Europe during the latter part of the war. Lyle I want to thank you for your participation in the Veterans History Project which is being put together also by the history department at Grand Valley State University, Allendale, Michigan. I thank you for your participation and also thank you for your service during World War II. �Brockway, Lyle � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrockwayL2335V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brockway, Lyle Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08 Title A name given to the resource Brockway, Lyle (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Lyle Brockway was born near Vicksburg, Michigan in 1924 and graduated from high school in May of 1942. After graduating high school, Brockway attended Michigan State to study agriculture and was enlisted in ROTC. During his first fall semester, he enlisted in the Air Force. Lyle went to basic training in Biloxi, Mississippi that fall after which he went to Birmingham, Alabama for classification for several weeks, and then left to attend Elon College in North Carolina as an extension of his classification training. Following North Carolina, Brockway made a brief stop in Nashville, Tennessee and then continued to Avon Park, Florida for flight training on the PT-17 Stearman. He then went to Macon, Georgia to receive training on the BT-13, and then to Columbus, Mississippi to receive training on the AT-10s and receive his commission. Brockway was then sent to Pyote, Texas to receive extensive training as a co-pilot, from that base Brockway made several flights around the United States and then flew to Kimbolton in Europe as part of the 379th bomb group. From Kimbolton, Brockway flew 35 missions over Germany during which he made a brief landing in Brussels, Germany after a piece of flak pierced the wing of his aircraft. After returning to Kimbolton for most of his missions, Brockway returned to Staten Island in the U.S. by ship. Brockway was sent to Santa Ana, California for reassignment, briefly assigned again to Macon, Georgia, and then assigned to Waco, Texas to be a contact flying instructor. Following Waco, Brockway was sent to Air Transport Command where he was discharged in November of 1945. After service Brockway was employed by Consumers Power as a ground man and spent 40 years there receiving various promotions. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erichsen, Wallace J. (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Afghan War, 2001-2021—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ea9ae0247eadb5636d47ec2c64238011.mp4 b98cbe64cbdd6fefe0fc22e5fac0d8cd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0bbec565788dd18a17145c7bc308d932.pdf 02d477bcf6db45807c1569334d2da6cd PDF Text Text Block, Kenneth Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee’s Name: Kenneth Block Length of Interview: (1:16:37) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Ken Block of Spring Lake, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Detroit, Michigan right in the middle of the Depression, 1932, had one older brother at that time. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you grow up in Detroit?” Spent my whole life in Detroit until the time I left with Uncle Sam’s tourist bureau. Interviewer: “Alright, and what did your family do for a living when you were growing up?” (00:33) My dad and mother both had come from Minnesota, we had no relatives, no friends, anything here. My dad, he was born in a barn so with my mother they had both been here since- in Minnesota, their family’s rather unusual I guess. My grandfather was born in the kingdom of [unintelligible] Hanover, there was no German country over there, and his- my great-grandfather was then born in 1828, and the other one goes way back. Fortunately all these records were available, in Germany and the one in Switzerland. Same thing, they came from Switzerland about the same time middle 1850’s, Minnesota wasn’t a state. �Block, Kenneth Interviewer: “Not yet, in the 60’s yeah.” My mother’s parents came from Munich, Germany and the other- my mother’s father’s family came from Luxembourg, which wasn’t a country then it was a principality, a Germanic principality. Interviewer: “Okay, now let’s see I think you said that one of your grandfather’s served in the civil war, was that right?” My grandfather’s brother, he was in Minnesota but they never got out of Minnesota because the Indian wars were taking place there, and they needed- and he was only 15 but he got a pension from serving so they took them pretty young at the time I guess. Interviewer: “Alright so why did your parents come to Michigan?” (2:03) Well they- there was no available farm land, my dad was the youngest and my mother was the youngest in big families, and my dad came and originally got a job in Flint, Michigan, general motor chevy bland, but you realize maybe that wasn’t what he really wanted as a career- it went maybe 24, 25. My mother- he wasn’t married yet you know, my mother from Bangor, Minnesota she was a one room school teacher in Minnesota, and heard about an apprenticeship program at Ford Motor. So he applied for it and he got accepted, for a tool and eye maker and ended up in half the tool and eye shops in Detroit. Never started by former apprentices or on that program at Ford Motor Company, which might be why Ford finally cut out the apprentice program where they’re training all those people. Took off or finally left, or they trained him in 1932 and 1931, and there were a lot of layoffs in the factories, the real depths of their approach back then hadn’t been done in 1929, and yeah we did go back to Minnesota for a short period of time but when he came back he got a job at Brady’s manufacturer institute as a tool and eye maker- in the tool and eye shop. Where everyone- where the war started and he got a job training people on certain machines. This would’ve been in 40- 1941, so he was now in a sort of classroom situation with machines and showing Chinese people how to do these operations, he did that many more �Block, Kenneth evenings. Interviewer: “Okay, so by then there’s plenty of work now because we’re making a lot of things.” Yeah, then he and two other guys he met opened a tool and eye shop, when it was pretty iffy in the late 1940’s and there was kind of another semi-depression in 1949. But each took terms as head of corporation, and each took turns going on unemployment, but anyway turned out they had the only set of organized Sherman tanks. They had bought a ton of scraps when they were doing whatever they could to pay, buy surplus machines, they bought a box- dynabox, mix machine parts. You just had to bet, their bad luck turned out a brand new Allison aircraft engine and it had never been touched, so they made a few bucks with forging. They were able to get into the tanker business and were very successful, made quite a bit of money. Interviewer: “Right because we were using a lot of Sherman tanks in Korea at that point.” (5:13) Yeah, gain breaking down- my mother would, every year, she had jobs working at Sears and in the bar but she’s- when the war started she was an excellent seamstress and she got a job on the motor fibers in a parachute sewing business and she was so good at it she became an inspector but she only did it because she had three kids and my youngest brother [unintelligible] Interviewer: “Yeah because there weren’t regular day care facilities or things like that on those days.” So anyways, then my dad died of prostate cancer in 1970. Interviewer: “Okay well let’s back up here now to your stories. So you’re too young for World War II yourself, you’re still a kid in school.” I was 13 when the war ended. �Block, Kenneth Interviewer: “And then when did you finish high school?” 19- actually they were so hard up for high schools they had all this imploding of people from all over the country to work here. High school consisted of going to campus for half a day, if you were a freshman or sophomore you went from noon to about four o’clock, and if you were a junior or senior you went from about eight to 12 o’clock. So the classroom is devoid of pretty much any good thing, I had to sit with- my brother and I had such a bad high school we had such a bad situation that in terms of working- pin in a bowling alley, it can’t be much worse than death. We had a part of time that wasn’t particularly good, I went to Wayne- I didn’t do a college prep program and my mother- I was surprised because my mother had been a teacher but none of them were too involved in looking at what we were doing in high school. So I got outta high, I had to take a test to get into Wayne so I did pass and got into Wayne. My brother- which we’ll talk about to God, went to a place- he was very interested in television, got a job with Bad Man Monk’s, I think it was called in Detroit who sold television many times since cell one, and the people would make a part- so much a month being that early payment, and I didn’t go in and confiscate the television bag. They’d maybe have to do some repairs so he was into that, and it really helped him out because he went to an electronics institute, he was so interested in the electronics, and he was just ready when the war comes along where they gave him a deferment for a year to let him finish his program there. Interviewer: “Okay, and now you’re talking about the Korean war?” (8:17) Yeah Interviewer: “Okay, but you started Wayne State and what were you studying there?” Up until the time I got shipped to Texas I was in the geology program, but that’s one of the reasons I accepted the idea of going into the Air Force full time. With a geology major and- I was going with a girl, her cousin…he and I became pretty good friends, he was a geology major. [he said] “Damn, a geology major from Wayne isn’t gonna getcha nothing. You better get �Block, Kenneth something that’s gonna earn you a living,” and I thought how do you switch together all these geology classes and about 20 hours of geology, semester hours of geology, and you know I can still make a change but if I do switch first I’m deferred but they’re not gonna defer me if I’m totally switching the program. I’m not gonna graduate for four more years or something so I thought, you know well I was good at accounting. I took an accounting class, a bookkeeping class in high school. I was very good at it, and I majored in accounting. It was funny because I know I could get a job with an accounting degree. Interviewer: “Right, so how did you wind up going into the service?” (9:31) Well the physics class I was taking in a semester that the Korean war started, in that spring semester talk did- a man that mentioned talk to me- well he didn’t talk to me he was Chinese, but he knew I was interested in meteorology. Said “Hey we got this weather gauge thing on the Selfridge, come out one weekend you get four days pay for being there for the weekend.” You know whatever, so why not come for a week. Interviewer: “So this is a reserve unit?” Yeah, Air Force Reserve. I never heard that much about national guard as far as everything we were involved in at Selfridge. At that time now its a national base but at that time it was Air Force reserve. So I went out and the first meeting was the day I got sworn in down at the federal building and when everything got written I don’t think I ever, I didn’t even have to take a physical that’s how everything was running. So I went up there in the one meeting, they’d come up one weekend a month in June, and then the war broke out June 25th. So then, I’m sitting around that right- that last five or four days in June and maybe the first four, five days in July, with a classmate of mine. We’re not a close friend but we knew each other pretty well and we were talking, we’re sitting around and he was in the Army Reserves, and then he- he was one of those guys that they were still drafting in 1947-48 a lot maybe 30-40,000 a year or 20,000 but he for two years he got in to get their basic training done. They said “We’re gonna let you out in 60 days, but then you have to be in the active reserves for the balance of the active reserve training.” Well it sounded to them like a good deal, so he was updating classes and he was in here and now �Block, Kenneth he was concerned. Quite a story, so I saw him then probably- within a couple of days I’d find out later, [unintelligible] then that was the last I saw him we were standing there seeing who was gonna get called up first, and I come back in September, late September, and I go to this coffee shop, this wings and coffee it was right across the street from Home Main if you’re familiar with the university, and I saw him and I said “Hey, what the hell happened to you?” and he said “Boy do I have a story.” He said “The week after I talked to you we got called up, and all of those guys have been put in the army reserve.” and he said “We did bullshit, we didn’t do nothing.” He said “They shipped up to Camp McCoy in Wisconsin and then to Washington State. I was in Korea in August, I was in Korea two weeks, and I got machine gunned across the back and broke the bone in one leg. But the others healed up and they shipped me back.” and he said “They’re letting me get- I think it was at that veteran’s hospital there in Allen Park they were working on and I said “Man are you gonna have a great paper to write for ‘what I did on my summer vacation’” but there were so many stories of that type of guys. Their whole life going through this tumultuous change just in short periods of time. Interviewer: “Okay so what winds up happening to you? You’ve joined this Air Force reserve based at Selfridge Air Force Base Michigan, and then- but you’re not activated yet?” (13:40) No they never did activate, if anything they probably eliminated the outfit. Interviewer: “So, what happens to you? You’re still in school then, this is now the fall of 1950, and how long do you stay in school like what else goes on?” I was able to stay in that reserve unit while it was still active up until 19- the fall of 1951. Interviewer: “Okay, now while you were in the reserve unit, what kind of training, if any did you get?” We just went there and worked with the guys, the enlisted men, you know releasing the balloons and checking dew point temperature, etc. It was education for me because it turned out- oh they �Block, Kenneth had three officers that turned out, but one of the officers had four days away from it where my parents house was, and so I could just drive with him on the weekends that we’re out there. And hell it was only a 15 mile ride which is rather convenient, we would collect all the data and then the officers of course- in those days we did have a small radar set but that was really too much. They might introduce- an introduction to what the fax machine is thermal fax. But that’s actually what the New York Times are built for because our machine said property of New York Times because they used it to send pictures. You know like thermal, because it was on a roller like an old piano player and a needle went across and you know made this picture and then we would record all the temperatures from air to the base that was coming into us and the median area. We’d have that plotted out- we didn’t do that you know in those days to be a meteorologist you had to have a master’s degree in mathematics, because you ended up having to work with all these formulas, and then they would create a map and then the other- but this had to be done on that. It’s amazing that base men- meteorologist, he loved it that these guys came up and gave him a weekend off every month. So you know there wasn’t really any training, I think it’s amazing that I had you know barely any basic training. Here’s a picture of me, this is December of 1950, when I was 18 years old. That was our backyard, we had this one uniform- but that was a December uniform, but that was the only uniform I had, so I had to wear that every time we wore our uniform in the summer, the same uniform. Interviewer: “Alright, and so are you following what’s happening in Korea at this point?” (16:43) I was very interested in what was going on, watched it carefully, very interested at airports at that time. The blade- some of the blades that were there were still C-46’s, you know the C-119 Flying Boxcars, they took those immediately and they needed those right that summer over in Korea. Interviewer: “So the aircraft that had been based at Selfridge before the war, those transport planes they all get sent out, the personnel get sent out.” Now in the Air Force carriers at Selfridge had been sent out as a troop carrier wing, being with F-86’s. That was the first line, you had anti-aircraft guns set up on Belle Isle, so that was, you �Block, Kenneth know just for that year and a half, now what happened after you know then as I mentioned before I came back to Selfridge base when I was able to get myself involved. As I said before there was a number of deferments that had gone through already. I was deferred, first of all they let you finish your semester class, and then if you take this other test and you can’t pass that then you were deferred until you graduated, but then you would go in automatically with your graduation I guess. It gave you a train ticket and you’d serve two years, I knew a couple of fellas that had majored in chemistry and so on- graduated and then they ended up going in the army but unfortunately so many of them didn’t get the advantage that maybe some of the early draftees had. But you know it was a great deal, I got the G.I bill Interviewer: “So basically you’re spending I guess, initially you’re just in the reserves unit and that goes into late ‘51 and then what changes late in ‘51?” (18:44) I got- I figured if that reserve unit was gonna close down I need a I didn’t- If I was gonna go through in two years I might as well wait, go through, and get a program that was gonna get me a job and you know do the reverse. I’ll do my military assigned time now and go back to school when I get back, and then I’ll be on the G.I bill. Interviewer: “Okay because you changed your programs and so forth you put yourself a little bit behind. Okay, so you basically decide to go active duty at this point?” No, I was in the Air Force ROTC, I would’ve had two years to finish up yet with the Air Force without having had the first two years. I got- I don’t know they must’ve thought I had basic training or something, but anyway they admit. All I knew about it was I went down to register for a class and they did pay you a little bit of money. Before that the fall-and in the fall, in the winter, that winter, they closed down the Enid Air Force Base for three or for days for multiengine. Trying to talk you into going to cadets rather than just delay the program waiting for ROTC, armament officer, thought we were taking apart 20 millimeter and 50 caliber machine guns and stuff like that, and I was kind of mechanical but it was not something that really- that I was very interested in guns I was an expert in [unintelligible] I had the highest mark on the rifle range and there were like 10,000 that took it during that period. I had the highest score, been �Block, Kenneth shooting cartridge with a 22 since I was ten years old at first- 22 I bought in those days. I got on my bicycle with my paper route money, went down to Beaumont Park- I said I bought a 22 in box, a 22 Jeff, but didn’t get too much a chance to use it because my dad didn’t have enough gas ration ticket coupons to go up. They had a little cottage way up on Lake Michigan, so didn’t get much too much involved there. Interviewer: “Alright, so basically you’re in- so you stay in school but now you’re in the ROTC?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, but you basically skip the first part of ROTC and they just let you join in the middle of the program?” (21:16) Yeah, because I was in the Air Force reserves and so the team- they got me discharged from the other- from the Air Force reserves. Interviewer: “Alright so now you’re in ROTC, now do you complete that program?” No, I would have had another year to go after this come- I was just going into- I would have been in it for two years. So I stayed in it and then at the end of the semester, of course the war hadn’t started yet, you turn your uniform and everything in and then they gotta close the office up on campus. I know they probably went home on their furloughs or whatever and it turned out with this friend of mine- this acquaintance of mine and me driving them out to Selfridge. Interviewer: “Okay, now you explained that to me off camera, can you kind of tell the story- you’re on camera so the audience will actually hear it.” Yeah, of course I lived in Detroit but I was usually down in, down at Wayne university. I had various jobs down there, I worked in the library on one occasion and on various others I had there. So I was in the ROTC as of May when I turned in my uniform I thought “Well what am I �Block, Kenneth going to do next semester?” I said “I don’t want to stay in this geology program that’s going nowhere for me. My marks were great but I could just pick any geology major at Wayne, and I thought “What am I gonna do with that next semester when I go down to register for classes, it’s like you know I’m not gonna be graduating at the end of next year. How does it work? Well I never had a chance to talk this over with anybody, so that is- situation developed where this acquaintance of mine needed a ride out to Selfridge. Interviewer: “Okay, so when is this that this happens?” (23:24) This all happened in…I’d say July. Interviewer: “Of what year?” 1950. Oh, I’m sorry this is going back to July of 1952. Interviewer: “Right okay so we’re July ‘52, you know somebody who needs to get to Selfridge, you don’t need to go there but?” Well I told him as a favor to him I said “I’ll buy the gas you get the car.” I was supposed to get a ride but I started- I made this appointment that’s all set up for me but I gotta go down to the federal building. You drive me to the federal building, pick up the papers and then we’ll drive out to Selfridge, and I said then you could just drop me back off you know I could get around Detroit on a bus then. Interviewer: “Okay so you take him up to Selfridge and what happens when you get there?” Well they gave me a physical. Interviewer: “Why are they giving you a physical?” �Block, Kenneth Well becauseInterviewer: “You just dropped him off.” The recruiter downtown had said “Why as long as you’re going out there with him, why don’t you go out and get a physical too? It’s a great flight physical I mean it cost under $10” and I thought for sure there’s no way they're gonna pass me, I’m wearing glasses! They’ll say “I’m sorry son but you don’t have 20/20 uncorrected vision.” So I get down there and I get the whole physical, I didn’t even know I passed the physical when I left. Interviewer: “Okay now was this a physical for pilot training?” (25:02) Yes this was strictly to go in the air- in the aviation cadet program which was- and I understood that to only because I’m talking to this acquaintance, that if for some reason you didn’t make ityou know physical or you just weren’t suited to this training that you only had to serve out about two years so you wouldn’t be drafted. Which sounds like you know, a can’t lose situation just because I gave up all my deferments I had now just to get into this, and now I have another one except I’ll be on active duty now for two years, and then I could go back after the two years and if I can take that sort of program I think I really should have. Interviewer: “Okay so you’ve gone there, you take the physical, and then what happens?” They dilated my eyes and went through the whole bit, I know it was a couple two, three hours, so then we get dressed and go home, and they said “Well we’ll let you know.” Well they did let me know, now I never saw my acquaintance so I don’t know if he passed or failed but I think I might have bumped into him and he said he didn’t pass, but anyway I get a letter two weeks later that said “you passed” and an envelope. I guess I must’ve signed something and not realized it but I hadn’t been sworn into anything, and because I still wasn’t in the Air Force- we would like to give you three more days of testing out on this new field in Illinois. Which is where we do allat least east of the Mississippi anyway, where you go through like the training and all these phases and all kinds of tests, paper test, ect. It’s three days of testing, I mean it was enjoyable, it �Block, Kenneth was entertaining, you know “What’s going on here?” but I’ll just go with the flow. So anyway, I come home and like a week or two later they say “You passed.” and I said “What do I do now” and they said “Well you can sign up now if you want to if you’re ever worried about getting drafted or something, because you’ve got no deferments left we’ve got you knocked off all these deferments.” So I said “Well you know this sounds pretty good.” I always loved everything about flight and the Air Force, you know that’s why I got into the Air Force reserves when I did. So go down- it was an interesting train trip. I was put in charge of this one car, we spent our first night- Now you got sworn in in the federal building, they took you over to old Fort Wayne in Detroit which has been there since the War of 1812 I guess. We stayed there that day and overnight, the next morning we were taken to the Grand Central Station. They had one car that was all our car so there were about 30 I guess or 40, it was a sleeper car, maybe it was 25 I can’t remember it was just a car and the reason I don’t remember too much is because I was the only one who had a little bit of Air Force reserves background, and I’d been to college, a little bit that they put me in charge. I had all the paperwork and all the guys, I was a big time guy here all of the sudden. So anyway there’s one young black fella that was there, and I could see he was really nervous he was the only one that was black, and I had been giving this special end car thing, I had my own room it was about the size of this room with the bunk beds and we had our own, it’s own sink. He said “I’m scared, I’m really scared about being in [unintelligible], would you mind…” He was just an 18 year old kid he was married to it, he looked like he was about 16. Interviewer: “So what was he afraid of? Just going south?” (29:20) Just being- He’d never been around white people before so I think it was more his concern than it for the white guys, they weren’t concerned about him obviously because they were 20 and he was just this one guy, and I said “Sure.” He just felt nervous, I had talked to him previously and I guess he figured I wasn’t- I said “Sure that's fine with me if you feel safer in here then sure, great.” and it was no trouble going down, the guys were all good. I said “Look, I don’t care what you have or what you do, just don’t give me any trouble, I don’t want to start my career in trouble because I let you guys get- If there’s any cans or anything you’ve got you drop them down the toilet so they drop on the railroad tracks. I don’t want any mess in the car and if we stop some place you better get your ass back here way early before the train takes off again.” So �Block, Kenneth we got all the way down to- Let’s see it was about two days of train travel we we’re talking 1500 mile travel or something down there and it wasn’t a super fast airplane. Interviewer: “Alright, now would it stop places you could get off?” Yeah, it’d go into the station and you know, whatever buy snacks, but they served us our food and everything right we didn’t leave the car they served us like box lunches or whatever. Interviewer: “Okay, because you are heading into the segregated south, so the black service man might have an interesting time if he’s in the wrong place or does the wrong thing, but nothing came up?” (30:50) Nothing came up I don’t know if he even got- I never got off, I never bothered going in to get anything but I don’t know maybe he did at random but we were going through states like Illinois, Missouri, I don’t know maybe the closes may have been would have been maybeInterviewer: “You might go through Arkansas, Louisiana, and then Texas.” And by that time I think we were probably- it was night travel. I don’t know, at least I never thought of the problem, I wasn’t aware that there was that much segregation. I just wasn’t aware and I don’t think most of the guys- A lot of them were up from the Flint area. Interviewer: “Sure, sure you’re all kind of from Michigan. So now you get down to San Antonio, now what happens?” Well you know you go through more of they, issue new uniforms and give you another physical. Which I don’t know I guess they gave you a physical or something down there and kind of clued you in as to what was going on. What the requirements were, what you couldn’t do and what you could do. Basically had a good experience in basic training I kind of enjoyed it, it was a long day I didn’t mind it though. �Block, Kenneth Interviewer: “Okay, so here you are getting Air Force basic training.” Right, it was 12 weeks. Interviewer: “Alright, and what does that actually consist of?” (32:06) Oh we went on night marches and they blow off dynamite off inside or something at night and they’d put you through a building with tear gas where you put a mask on. We had class, a lot of classes you had to take math and there’s things that might prepare you for various tank schools, and then you would use that- It’s also good information as to what kind of assignment they might give you some college math. So obviously I mean I did better than probably most of them, most of them were just high school there might have been one or two but I’m not aware of it, that they went beyond high school. Of course at that point in time 1950, probably about 10% of graduating classes went to college. Interviewer: “Right okay, so you do well in the testing, was this where you did the rifle range stuff too?” Oh yeah you know they were having problems in Korea they had some of the people there that didn’t know how to shoot a gun practically. So they want to make sure all the Air Force people would have some training so- but our basic weapon was just a carbine iron I was familiar with a Garand--rifles- I’d been around rifles all my life so, and that was enjoyable I was alright, a lot depended on the rifle you got too, how accurate it was. I think I just lucked out, I had a lot of training, as a matter of fact when I was in high school we had a rifle range in the basement, at Debbie high school you could come down there one night a week and shoot at targets they had. I guess high school ROTC they would practice in the basement with 22’s. Interviewer: “Okay now, was there also a lot of discipline?” I was used to discipline all my life so I didn’t think it was much worse. I think the officers I thought were- Oh not the officers, the… �Block, Kenneth Interviewer: “The sergeants or the NCO’s who were training you again.” Kind of- They were good but then they would carry it too far, it was rather funny as one of them found my classmates from Wayne it turns out he was in another group. The guys, as it turns out they got over- He was a Canadian, but he had joined the American Air Force, and he was a TI, and he had the same job as these guys that were over us had, so he knew me really well. I mean I knew him better than a lot of people, but there were classes a lot of basic, you know the rules, marching, I did a lot of marching. But I always enjoyed even marching, you know actual group marching like parade marching. I thought that was good physical exercise. Interviewer: “Alright, now the people you were training with were they potentially going to do any number of different things in the Air Force.” (35:14) You didn’t- They didn’t find out what they were assigned to and in those days you didn’t get to pick what you were gonna go into. You went into what they said, what they thought you were qualified for so. There was a rumor, and they would start rumors deliberately like, “Okay, this whole group is going to cook school.” or “This group is going into-” gosh don’t believe rumors. They’d feed us all this just to keep you, you know. Don’t pay too much attention to what people say because it’s all fake news. Interviewer: “Alright, so what happens to you now? Once you finish your training.” Well we get that last day where you know we’re actually there is when they start telling people, when they run and the guy says “We don’t know what to do with you.” but they brought over this book. It was this big loose leaf binder, and it had open positions. It had every air base in the United States, matter of fact there might have even been some in Europe I guess. I never got that far, so I look through and I “oh well let's see what’s at Selfridge.” Interviewer: “So are you-” �Block, Kenneth I looked at Selfridge, I had looked at a couple other places and said “ehh I don’t know about that” and like Dakota, I’ve got relatives in North Dakota but I didn’t want to go to North Dakota. Interviewer: “Okay, so why are they letting you pick?” Because they had to put me some place, there was over a year and a half left. Interviewer: “Alright but why wouldn’t they just assign you somewhere?” (36:51) Well that’s what I said, they were always very good to me the Air Force Reserves. Interviewer: “But was it because you tested well, was that part of it?” No, no just whatever it was I had to find it- Something in this book that I think [unintelligible] lowest level, so I just, they sent me up there. They could’ve just used me as a floor washer or permanent KPer or something. I accepted a slot at the 22 42nd, now that’s a regular Air Force actually it stands for Air Force Reserve Training Center. Which was part of the 10th Air Force which was also headquartered at Selfridge at that time. So I get up there and I hand them- you carried that service record with you, and I give it to the guy and the guy says- they had just requested a spot for a real low level flunky, I said, “Well, I can’t do this,” and he said “We’ve got a position open in the office, you know base of operations, right now for the 22 42nd for clerk typist, do you know how to type?” “Oh sure, I can type, I took typing,” and I could do 50, 60 words and was pretty good at it, and he said, “Oh great, that’s the same as a stenographer.” So I got to attend that position, which was interesting you know I type fast for [unintelligible] discharged board. I got to type up in, I think it was ‘51, might have been ‘52, but 1951 these orders they said “Hey,” normally we didn’t get this “type these orders up pretend they’re fours, then distribute to our unit because we don’t have enough copies.” So I typed up this order and as I said Lindbergh was on the order, and I know he was recalled or- He was promoted, he was an Air Force reservist, was promoted to brigadier general, and Jimmy Stewart either it was already maybe temporary rank of brigadier general, he had been a colonel for a while- was also on the orders and I can’t remember when I moved in 1990, and getting all the papers and stuff what’s �Block, Kenneth happened, I had a folder full of stuff and it just plain disappearing. So I lost those orders which I would have, you know it was kind of a rogue kind of thing, but they don’t survive you can see I’ve got my orders here these papers, here’s my orders when I got discharged. Now you know that’s what you’re typing up that sort of thing. Interviewer: “Right, okay so you’re- so how long did you spend doing that?” Over a year and a half. Interviewer: “Okay, so what kind of stands out in your memory about the time you spent there?” (40:01) Oh let’s see, probably the thing that stands out, I got to know this fella pretty well, and he frequently got in a little bit of trouble. He was an older guy in his 30’s I would imagine, but when I got hospitalized- When I moved from Texas up to Selfridge I went from 70 degree temperature to a miserable cold day, and I’d been there maybe a week or two, these barracks were built. There were coal fire little furnaces, coal in there, one big room and it had these little wall partitions, but I got seriously sick. I woke up in the middle of the night at two, three o’clock, and I go in, over to the dispensary or whatever you call it where you go. I’m walking over and it’s two in the morning and I go in there and there’s like a dead guy laying on the floor. I said “I got a burning fever, I’m sick, and I got a dead guy on the floor and there’s no one else around.” So finally two guys, I don’t know if they were FBI or secret service or what it was, and they ask me, “Who the hell are you?” I said, “What are you here for?” I said, “I’m sick” but anyway it was fine, I found out later what they were investigating was that he had hung himself in the stockade, and it turned out that several people, they were really sick people that were watching the people, and there was a big investigation I remember. So if we ever hear anybody, we’ll know where they got the information, you know “You better not open your mouth.” So anyway, but that all worked alright and it really worked out rather fortunate for me, this was- Now I’d just been at Selfridge and I’d only been in service like six months and a hospital nurse took care of me with one of the people named Jeremy and she knew that she had seen me at church or Catholic, and [unintelligible] I think I was there in the high school maybe five or six days with a �Block, Kenneth really serious throat injury, and I was also running scarlet fever which when I was four 25%, 20% of the kids died if they got scarlet fever in those days, but it was a serious throat infection. So I’m in the hospital area and we’re talking and she said “Well, you know why don’t you- If you want.” I was living on base and driving, “I’m taking classes at Wayne university if you’re full time serving military service there’s no tuition it’s free, absolutely free.” Man this is, thank you Jesus really looking after me and so when I got out of the hospital, the first negro I got to know really well was a doctor, he was a black doctor captain from Detroit, I guess he was from Detroit, I assume he might have been from- I don’t know. Great guy, if he had been my family doctor he was a great guy, I don’t know if I’ve had a doctor I like better than him. So really it was good for me to be at this introduction because Minnesota where my parents and all my relatives lived, I had cousins that would come down man it was like they had never seen black people before in their life. So they didn’t- my parents didn’t bring any prejudice with them either, but anyway then I was able to get- I’d take this English course that I wasn’t that happy to get, I wasn’t really anticipating enjoying it but it turned out it was really quite good so, and that worked out fine but then halfway through that semester, this would have been 1951… Interviewer: “Well wait was this after, this is while you’re at Selfridge now?” (44:30) I’m still at Selfridge [overlapping chatter] Interviewer: “So it’s more like ‘53 by then probably right?” What was that? Interviewer: “You just said ‘51 and it wasn’t until ‘52 that you got up to Selfridge.” Oh, I keep getting the years- yeah this would have been 1953. This would have been- I’m sorry this would have been 1953 the middle of the semester, I was home for the weekend and there’s a power failure or something because I had to go on detail to stoke the fire, the stove in the barracks, and I didn’t go off, so I didn’t show up and this one sergeant he was just, not very bright loved having a little bit of power. He’s gonna put me in for a court martial that gets me up �Block, Kenneth the office. He said, “Now wait a minute-“Major Kellerman, that ran the operation said to me…let me see, he’s on separate rations- I skipped a part, I got so sick, when I was sick in the hospital, Kellerman Major Kellerman said, “Hey you folks let’s eat-” some of these are so bad, you wanna [unintelligible] separate rations, usually you have to be buried or something or be an NCO, he said, “Nah, it’s alright, you’ll just be on a one meal a day plan,” and so I was on separate rations living at home, that’s why I was staying home overnight, and the alarm didn’t go off. So I wasn’t there for that two o’clock stoking the furnace, and the Major Kellerman tells the guy, he said, “Now look, he’s on separate rations right, you can’t eat in the jail except one meal, which you’re gonna put him on KP all day but he can only eat one meal okay. He’s gotta be in the barracks to stoke the furnace but he doesn’t have a room in the barracks.” He said, “Oh, use your head.” So the Major Kellerman’s solution was he took me off all detail and all KP. So that little problemSomeone’s looking after me up there, so I lived the rest of the time, the last year, over a year I was on separate rations. I lived at home, I didn’t have a bunk, I was regular Air Force, I was promoted up to air men second class, the problem was- I couldn’t go to any of these schools that I qualified for because its like a, what is it, a double whammy. To qualify for a school not only do you have to have all the paper requirements, you had to have two years of your service remaining to go to that school after you graduated. So I couldn’t, I couldn’t go into an assignment like in meteorology, I couldn't be a weatherman because you had to go to that weather school, even though I worked for a year and a half in that area and I had taken the college course in meteorology because I didn’t go to that school. When there’s probably some decent reasons for that but in any case it worked out alright just being a- working in the office there Interviewer: “Now what was actually going on at the base, I mean what was it used for?” (48:30) At that point in time what we were- It was also a defense we had f-86’s on the base. Interviewer: “Okay and those are jet fighters right?” They were there, they were regular Air Force, they were there to protect Detroit, the other thing �Block, Kenneth we did on the base was in 1951, late ‘51 start of ‘52, they redesignated the 439th troop carrier wing to the 439th fighter bomber wing, and for that spring and summer we had mustangs and Texas T-6’s, and they were recalling fighter pilots from World War II. Guys were getting unhappy, guys they were a bit in the active reserve and they didn’t like the idea of getting called up and again this is not a flying club here. So anyway, that only went on for about six months or so continued on, and mustangs still were used in Korea at that point at that point- Up until that point, and then they changed they switched over to F-80, lock and lightning planes and I got to fly in them in a T-33, said “Hey I’m gonna see if I can make you sick.” So I didn’t get to fly although I was a front seater, you know on a training plane the guy that’s controlling it sits behind you and he can close you out but you can’t close him out from flying the plane, but I didn’t fly it, don't get me wrong. Anyway, let’s see where were we? Interviewer: “Well we were just gonna talk about different things that happened while in that time you’re spending now on active duty itself.” (50:25) This guy, this sergeant I was telling you, this is a different sergeant, this guy you know he had been in the Bataan death march, captured in Corregidor, survived the death march, and then was transported sometime in 1942 period to Japan on a cargo ship going back from the Philippines, Japanese controlled and survived all the American ships trying to torpedo everything that came in sight. Interviewer: “That may have been in ‘44 but okay.” He gets into Japan and we were at this camp, and he said on the base of the camp itself it wasThe worst was a guy I’m not gonna mention names he was a master sergeant, terrible and he making all these special considerations because of being the head guy, or at least that’s what he told me. He said “We were shipped off we were taken out of the prison every morning to a factory, we worked in the factory, the end of the day-” but he said “In the factory we were treated every bit as well as the people who worked there, we got the same food rations, everything.” So that’s why he came out reasonably healthy, but he spent the rest of that- far as I know the whole period of the war, he was in that prison camp from ‘42 to 45, but of course I �Block, Kenneth don’t know how long it took him from then in ‘42 to get back but I think they shipped him out pretty fast if the cargo ships coming from Japan with cargo and it’s troops and stuff, it goes back empty and takes these prisoners and if they got torpedoed by the Americans they just went down with the ship, but he had some broken- fascinating stories. You know to be on the first hand talking basis with him and I think he had a little bit of a drinking problem, and when I was sick he wrote down the dispensary said, “Get me some codeine,” better known as G.I gin, it had a high alcohol content cause he’d be sitting up there for some disciplinary reason not all the time but every once in a while he’d be up stuck there all day and I said, “If you’re going up there today to get your painkiller, could you pay me back?” It was just one shot in a bottle it was good stuff it tasted like- G.I gin, G.I gin tasted like a martini a gin martini I guess but it really worked, but I’m trying to think, let’s see what did I- I don’t think I’m missing anything here. Okay then so we were there a year and a half I said- I got more citations put up for an air man of the month they had gotten in and I always felt some guys would just goof off every chance they had in service, and I find time passes better when you’re doing something. They got an transit graph machine which you can type little metal plates with names and address the things, you could do them for name tags, ect, but I suggested I said, we’ve got the woman working on that so frankly all she did was mail out stuff and I had to type up all the envelopes all of this reserved us, you know what I mean probably everybody reserved us. So why don’t I just type up plates for them and then you can just run them under- So I went down there and they were in a nice brick building way in the center of the base, and I took all their bios I take one tray at a time from the office and go up there and type them or whatever I could do. (54:59) Within two days I had all of them all done back and the guys from 10th Air Force they told me that every time I go down there the sound of working [typing noises] typing up these plates, these metal plates. So it was not a really, that big a job, I guess I just had no supervision and I got it done, but I was glad the guy that did get it, [unintelligible] fire when the plane come in. They had included a weekend at hotel downtown Detroit, and I didn’t have girlfriend, I lived in Detroit, don’t even really consider that, don’t even consider that I’m not even- Every month they would come up with air man of the month kind of situation but it was [unintelligible] talking about something else here too, of course I typed up this, I typed up demos you know the orders this kind of thing, typing up orders, shipping people around you know so. I guess I didn’t bring it- Oh I know what I was gonna mention, it’s my brother and I, this would’ve been in 1950- That would’ve been in 1952. I don’t �Block, Kenneth know if that’s even going to come up, yep. You know my brother finished his electronics institute, and he was immediately- he was married, but he was immediately drafted. Do you remember a guy by the name of B. Walt Meyer that wrote for the Detroit news? Interviewer: “No.” Well anyways big on the Detroit news until just a few years ago and he worked as a cub reporter outside of high school we all went to high school together, but he was a major- he was one of the major Detroit news people, but anyway he and my brother it turns out are standing in the line together they just got sworn in, and they said “Every other guy step out, you’re in the Marine Corps.” This was just right after they got massacred in North Korea the marines, and it really I think really worked out for the individuals in for the corps. They look through the work and the best and the army did the same thing, like when my brother-in-law was a- I forget what you call the technical name, the heavy machine mover for Ford. He had gone through an apprenticeship, got drafted and they immediately put him in for tank recovery. Well my brother with his electronics they said “Damn, you’ve got all this electronics we haven’t got” it takes so long to train anybody for this kind of stuff. We finished Parris Island, their basic training, they had a guy come over and ran the school for- the electronic school. He says “He knows ten times more than I do anything.” so they shipped him up to Cherry Point, so he spent- as a matter of fact in the Marine Corp if you’ve got possession you got that rank- temporary rank. So he was only in service in the Marine Corp maybe a year and he was a three star, well you can see right here he’s only a corporal but that was- he got drafted in ‘51 this was like six months later he’s already a corporal, and then they made him a sergeant. The only time he got out of the country to go to port [unintelligible] everyone maneuvers with them I guess but he just stayed and his first daughter was born there. I don’t know anything more, anything else I can go into, discharge was kind of an interesting situation, separation for service. Now, it just said “Separate and release from assignment” okay. (59:35) Now normally at the time, and then my brother was that way, you spent two years on active duty and then you were in the reserves I think for four or six years, I forget what it was, or in reserves- Anyway, and so when I was getting discharged they said “Well, you’re separated from service.” and I said “You know what I was just reading some place in a book, if you had prior military service you weren’t required to have that four years.” Now, �Block, Kenneth there was nothing it was a limbo from December 1949, until August 1950, that summer Congress had got around to saying what your status would be and so then what they came up with, well there was nothing on the books if you had prior service, and you weren’t required to have any reserve requirements. I said, “You know, I think I get a discharge right now.” I said “I don’t want to get out and find out I can get drafted or called up on active duty or something right away.” I was 24 years old- 22, or 23 years old I want to get out and live my life instead of going back to the Pentagon, so one of my papers is “Air Force ranked” such and such and such, so they gave me a discharge, again it was another double whammy but it kind of worked out in my favor. It wouldn’t have been a problem, I guess I could just been an inactive reserve, my brother didn’t get discharged I think until 1961 finally. Interviewer: “Alright, now this tape is about up so I’m gonna stop here…Alright now we’ve kind of gotten in your story pretty much to the point of your discharge but you mentioned to me off camera here, you did at some point- you spent time in a hospital earlier-” It was the throat Interviewer: “With your throat, and you also got injured at some point?” (1:01:44) Well correct, I didn’t know at the- it was a terrible pain, so I went in to the unit there and he couldn’t see anything wrong. Well about a week later it was really bad I had an abscess all the way across my mouth and I lost all these teeth. What they did, which I don’t think they normally did they made a permanent bridge, if that was done today it’d be about $12,000. They had to replace these with the new format they had. Interviewer: “Now do you know how it happened?” I don’t know. Interviewer: “So you didn’t have an accident or something?” �Block, Kenneth You know I forget really, all I remember is afterwards, you know nothing I could see. Was it the result of doing this, was it this? All I could say is you know it wasn’t any tooth decay it was just a tooth that was cracked across, leads eventually all of these had to be pulled out and they made that bridge which they replaced, I mean I had to have it redone. Interviewer: “Okay now, when you were finishing up your enlistment did the Air Force make any effort to encourage you to reenlist?” (1:03:11) Oh sure, yeah but they knew I wasn’t really going to be interested, they tried to get my brother too. I mean- He and I and on this I absolutely believe, had I gone in I was so, I was very fond of it if you wanna call it that, of the Air Force, I love flying, that had I not [audio cuts out] your eyes aren’t correctable to 20/20, would have gone in to many of the units, I think I was going with they were being schooled for the new jet bombers they were with the twin blades I think it was the B-47 [audio cuts out] Stuart was in netbook movie they made, that plane with the bomber that was coming, that was the first bomber that flew over 400 miles an hour, 500 miles an hour, and I would’ve stayed in service. I probably would’ve made a career out of service, and those are the same guys that all got shot down over in Vietnam were the bombers that where most of the Air Force you know air craft were. The bombers that got hit were getting shot down by large numbers. Interviewer: “So, once you did get out what did you do?” I went right back to Wayne university to school and I graduated a year and a half later with a degree, I got a master’s degree in business, and I got to be a CPA. What I- actually I never practiced I just, guys worked for the department of the Navy too because of my background on machines, no business on government projects. That’s the only other experience I had in this area, I had contractors and Grand Rapids and Holland, Michigan, and building destroyers in Bay City where we give them you know, of course at that time it was about 2 and a half million dollars for the basic structure of the destroyer and they made the best destroyer [audio cuts out] yard in Bay City, but they eventually closed down because they couldn’t keep all the shipyards �Block, Kenneth open. Though, you know I did have auditing experience with these outfits, and I would have been working on a doctorate in economics for a year- I’m too old for this kind of thing up there in limbo and satellite rock their world so, [audio cuts out] 39 by that time, I good bit you can substitute one of the languages, you can take math and calculus and different relations and different equations and so I did that part. That’s just getting the classwork and getting a dissertation approved, I said “I don’t want this.” my kids are graduating from high school they’re gonna be in college and I’d be up there still, but my kids did very very well. My son got into med school outta high school with a six year program and our daughter went to law school in Ann Arbor, yeah she kind of teaches at Fordham she’s been there for many many years. My kids are pushing 60 now so they’re older than you are. Interviewer: “Not by too much. Alright so, aside from the education part, what do you think you took out of your military experience?” (1:06:46) Well I took a lot- I certainly took a lot more out then I even put in. I got a lot of benefits from service in terms of having a time to sit down and think “What am I really gonna do” and reorganize my life. I met a lot of very wonderful people that I never would have had the opportunity to have met had it not been for the military experience. As I said I got the G.I bill, and one of the reasons I got the master’s degree was that I still had, after I got out because I already had almost two years in and I still had two years of G.I bill left so I thought “okay to get a master’s degree- you only have to 12 semester hours to get full benefits?” So that made my- I bought a new house, a $15,000 house but I made my house- monthly house payment, so I got into a new house probably before everyone else, so I got a lot more out of it. If I hadn’t gotten a master’s degree because of when I went to- I was, I had been working for the Navy for three years from ‘63 to ‘62 maybe to 1965. I did a lot of travel I had the whole state of Michigan, various contracts, General Motors, Flint, Holland, Saginaw, and I was out at the air university and right then at an Air Force base for a couple of weeks and at one point in time that this just isn’t conducive to having teenage kids. I had often- I was gonna apply just temporarily while I looked for a job. I quit the job with the Navy, “Man this is like going to heaven.” I really liked the kids and college kids never talk back to you, or they usually don't, they, you know, they’re there because they want to be there. So, and then the advantage was too that you’re off during the �Block, Kenneth summers and you’ve winter off, and none of the benefits I would’ve had if it hadn’t had been some guy taking me through the military it could’ve been a totally different life. That- I buy a Volkswagen camper bus, buy it in this country but for deliver in Amsterdam they don’t pay any taxes, excise tax is nothing then buy for, so 169, I bought one in Amsterdam, drove it and it was great for the kids, Africa you know all over Europe, and this is pretty good. 1971 did the same thing but this time I had planned we were gonna drive on Peter, Saint Petersburg, but I got the visa from Russia pay the [unintelligible] man don’t you have to drive through- Do not, do not drive through East Germany, I feel like I got all the same- visa from Russia to go into there on a door, on a travel visa. So instead went through Czechoslovakia and Poland into the Ukraine, and just for the kick of it drove down through the Ukraine into Romania, Hungary, down to Istanbul, Turkey, and then over down through Greece, a marvelous experience for kids. Interviewer: “So the only East Bloc country to give you trouble was East Germany? The other ones were pretty happy to have you.” (1:11:05) Yeah, yeah they said you can so much as have a license plate bracket not right and they’ll throw you in jail. Terrible, in the Ukraine they were wonderful, really nice, I don’t know if you’ve got time for this sort of thing. So coming out of the Ukraine coming back into Hungary, Lvov in the Ukraine, my wife has Polish background you can understand maybe not speaking. Right? You understand, met some young Russian kids, I don’t know if they were spies spying on me, if they thought maybe I was a spy, but they spoke perfect English. We never talked about anything, and everything was just great, we got to the border and we’re gonna go out of Ukraine, and they declared anybody- and anyway Russian money, yeah I said- but my son has and band aid can full of coins that he’s picked up in Russia, you know currency, [unintelligible] uniform gets in he said “What’s this? Russian money.” and I said “Oh well it’s my Volkswagen camper bus.” and are you familiar with Volkswagen camper buses? Okay so there’s that fold down table and he say- he sits down and my son is sitting over here, and he says “Where is this money?” and says “You don’t have this one.” You don’t have this one, one thing they did do they blanked all my film totally, but other than that it was just you know it was just fool’s luck I guess, and I think of it now. How the hell did I get the nerve to do that? But fortune of God, it worked great, the experiences were great and I did it again in 1976, this time though we went up through Norway �Block, Kenneth and down around. One time I saw then, as soon as I got back- Well the one time- The first time I got back it turned out, where the deal happening was the Volkswagen bus, bringing folks inside the cars leaves right from Germany, by the way that’s where some of my relatives originally came from, and their destination is Toledo, Ohio $175 I think it was all three days, two times, brought it back within a week was able to sell it. Sell it for as much as I paid for it, you had to have it out of the country for six weeks or seven weeks I forget, so it was always there on the charter I said “First [unintelligible] five people” Oh, it was under $1000, and that included a nice stay in a hotel, a holiday in Amsterdam, but all it cost me was the price of the gas and we lived out of the campers, so you can go over there with very little money it costs more for one to go there for one little tour for a week then for us there for four or five weeks. I think it kept the kids off the streets during those dangerous teenage years, they always abbreviated it. We had a great experience, we were in Norway and we met the naval attache, the American naval attache, for Norway over the ambassador there, and we got there. It happened to be the day before the 4th of July, and the naval attache said “Stay with us!” and they had some teenage kids, it was great to see some American kids, and they say “Hey there’s a 4th of July picnic tomorrow, you wanna go?” and we weren’t gonna turn down the ambassador and all these people, have a great big American style picnic in the middle of Oslo, Norway, but it was time after time some great experiences like going to through Fez in Morocco and Marrakech and Nador which was the drunk capital of the world at the time, not for us we picked up a Moroccan boy gave us the tour of Venice, just the nicest nicest kid- young man, I should say young man. Really showed us stuff that you don’t normally get to see, but nothing that was ever any problem, never put a scratch on the car. I think I drove more than some 20-some thousand miles in Europe, just so lucky no accidents, but you gotta have a good guardian angel for that. Interviewer: “Sometimes. Alright, well the whole thing makes for an interesting and unusual story so thank you.” (1:16:10) Well I thought I didn’t have any war stories except there was so much unusual stuff in that it was a little bit different. I thought especially that I’ve never heard anything of an American prisoners of war in Japan, were not just in a camp that they were [overlapping chatter] �Block, Kenneth Interviewer: “That is in the history books but alright anyway well thank you very much for taking the time to share the story today.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BlockK2182V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Block, Kenneth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02 Title A name given to the resource Block, Kenneth (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource Kenneth Block was born in Detroit, Michigan, in 1932 where he graduated high school before attending Wayne State University. Studying geology and accounting, Block graduated with a degree in accounting before a friend referred him to Selfridge Air Force Base due to his interests in meteorology. Just before the outbreak of the Korean War in June of 1950, he enlisted into the Air Force Reserve unit stationed at Selfridge. Block had no formal Basic Training and soon went to work in the meteorology department of the Reserve unit. By late 1951, he decided to enter the Air Force Reserve Officer Training Course in the hopes of placing himself into a better position to pursue a military career or a higher education after his seemingly inevitable time in the active-duty service. Block was then sent to Enid Air Force Base for a brief course in multi-engine repair and maintenance. In July of 1952, he agreed to take a physical at Selfridge and, to his surprise, was qualified to undergo flight training in San Antonio, Texas. Firstly, he underwent twelve weeks of Air Force Basic Training in addition to other formal classroom training courses. Block was then allowed to select where he wanted to be assigned, after which he was stationed back at Selfridge with the Air Force Reserve Training Center, attached to the 10th Air Force Division, as a clerk typist. During his time on the base, the Air Force was recalling former Second World War fighter pilots and Block, himself, participated in a few flight crews, but never fully became a pilot. Block also spent some significant time in the hospital for illnesses he contracted in his throat as well as for a severe dental ailment that caused him to lose several teeth on his jaw. Eventually, he was discharged from the Air Force and immediately resumed his education at Wayne State University for a master’s degree in business. Afterwards, he decided to stop pursuing further education opportunities since his children were graduating high school and would be enrolling in college themselves. Reflecting upon his time in the Air Force, Block believed the service helped him reorganize his life. He was also grateful for the benefits of the GI Bill, believing he received far more from his service than he had put into it. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4af197bf3d5e7e19e1ec6cbdac7b7dfc.mp4 854c489cd88163b0b4a88e35a31c14bf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/827171dc9090608f0c3f7d7c87176c5d.pdf d4b421eef74bb9c415f20eb3fc535620 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Emile Bertrand Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Emile Bertrand of Petoskey, Michigan. And I guess it is more of an Emile Bertrand, if you’re American? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Yes, okay. And so, he was born in France and he actually served in the French Resistance as well as the French army during the Second World War. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Alright. But to begin with, let’s go back to the beginning. Where and when were you born? Veteran: Where I was born? Interviewer: Mhmm. Veteran: In Brittany. At that time, the Brittany, and Carhaix, in the Côtes d’Armor was the place I was born in 26 of October, 1922. Interviewer: Okay. And did you grow up in that area? �2 Veteran: No, I did not, no. I grew up in a town by the name of Laval, in la Mayenne. (00:53) And when I was very small— Interviewer: Okay, and— Veteran: And I stayed there until my mother died. She was 36 years old. She had pneumonia. Interviewer: Okay, and what— Veteran: They didn’t know how to treat that at the time. Interviewer: And what year was that? Veteran: Oh, that was before the war. I was 14 years old. Interviewer: Okay, so about 1926—36 or thereabouts. Veteran: ’36, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Something like that. Interviewer: Yeah, and then Laval was kind of a little bit north of the Loire Valley and southwest of Paris. Veteran: Yeah, quite a bit north. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: That’s actually east of Brittany. Interviewer: Yes. Veteran: East of Rennes. �3 Interviewer: Yeah. Right. Okay. And what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid? Veteran: My father worked for the French railroad. You know? And most of my uncles worked for the [untelligible] of the French railroad at that time, you know. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And it was a pretty good job, I guess. Interviewer: Okay. And then, what sort of education did you have? Veteran: Well, in Laval I went to the lycée. And I went—not doing very good, so my father decided to send me to St. Brieuc in a boarding school. And then there was a—the name of the school was Curie (00:02:20). And I graduated there in 1939, just before the war started. Interviewer: Right. (00:02:29) Veteran: In the summer before the war. And I was going to go to be an engineer and the war started in October [actually September] 1939. So, there was—I couldn’t go for that reason. I went to work. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I was working in the Rennes, at the arsenal of Rennes in the summer of 1940. And I was on the afternoon shift. I was on my bicycle right in front of the—right on station. All of a sudden—I was waiting for the lights—all of a sudden, we heard big, huge explosions. Big, fantastic—a few minutes later a group of 5 or 6 or 7 Dorniers (00:03:26) … Interviewer: Bombers. �4 Veteran: …German bombers were shaving the roof of the station. And in Rennes they had a big, huge motor track. And on the tracks were ammunition trains and refugees. And the whole thing blew up. There was over 1000 people died there, that particular morning. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And they were so close I saw the crew—the pilots and everybody else—we could see them very well. And next to me there was a British soldier. He was shooting with his rifle into the gun—into the planes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: With no success, I guess. Interviewer: Okay. Now, I want to back up and fill in a little bit more about your early life. Before the war started, the 1930s—that’s the era of the Great Depression. Veteran: 1939. Interviewer: Yeah, but before that, that’s the era of the Great Depression. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: You had the Popular Front government in France in the middle of the 1930s, the Spanish Civil War… Did you pay very much attention to the events— (00:04:35) Veteran: No, I didn’t. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: No, I didn’t. Interviewer: Okay. �5 Veteran: No. Just after the Germans came in, I changed my mind many times. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Many times. Interviewer: Now, but between the time—I mean, the war—the Germans attacked Poland in 1939. Veteran: 1939. Interviewer: In September. And then the Allies declare war after that. Veteran: Yes, yes. Interviewer: Alright. And did life change at all for you before the Germans came or did you just keep doing— Veteran: In a way, a little bit because instead of going to school— Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I went to work. Interviewer: You took a job, that’s right. Veteran: I went to work in Rennes, at the arsenal (00:05:14) as a toolmaker. A young toolmaker. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And when the Germans were really close to coming to town, I took my bicycle and two of the guys—we went to Nantes and… Interviewer: Did you go all the way from Rennes to Nantes (00:05:36) on a bicycle? �6 Veteran: On a bicycle, yeah. Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did that take? Veteran: Oh, 3-4 days at least. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we had refugees all over the place. People with a wheelbarrow carrying their suitcases. You know? And some people say that the Germans were coming with a plane. I never seen it. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I never seen it. Interviewer: Alright. Now— Veteran: But when we left, it was 5 o’clock in the morning; it was daylight, you know. And we came by noon to a huge British depot. And the British were gone. They went back to England, you know. But all the doors were open so any French people can go there and pick up whatever they want. And I picked up a—something to eat. And I picked up another bottle of—what’s the name of that? Of rum. (00:06:44) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Jamaican rum, you know. And I don’t like rum anymore. I was too—in bad shape at the time. But by the time we went to the—to Nantes, the German halftracks were—they were coming. So, I said, “Well, it’s no use to go any further.” I went back home in Morlaix, which is close to Brest. �7 Interviewer: Alright. So, is that where your father was living? Veteran: No, my father was living—was working for the railroad in Laval. Interviewer: Okay. He was in Laval. So, who was in Morlaix then? Who did you go to live with? Veteran: There was an uncle and an aunt. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I was very close to them. And they had two boys and an older girl, which she is still living right now in France. Interviewer: Alright. Now, when you were living in Rennes and you were working in the armory, what kind of living conditions did you have? Were you in an apartment or a dormitory? Veteran: I was renting a room, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we had lots of food. We weren’t hungry at all at that time, until the Germans came. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know? Interviewer: Okay. But now you have made it back, you have gone back to Morlaix, you rejoined your family. The Germans are there, but you’re not working anymore. Veteran: No, I am not working. �8 Interviewer: So, what do you do then? (00:08:09) Veteran: Well, you know, France was divided, an occupied zone and a free zone, which was led by Vichy (00:08:19). Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And my friend and I, we decided to see if we could go to the south of France and through Spain to Gibraltar. So, we left Brittany and we went only east side of France and we crossed a canal and the—a creek. And we went all the way to Marseille in the south of France. Interviewer: Okay, now how did you do this? Just on bicycles or walking? Veteran: No, by train. Interviewer: By—okay, you took trains. Veteran: You know, my dad was working for the railroad. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I was going free. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I didn’t pay a dime. Interview: Alright, and you— Veteran: My friend also the same way. Interviewer: Okay. But now the area in Brittany—Morlaix—was that part of the occupied zone? �9 Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Yeah, because Brittany—because that was important militarily. Veteran: Entirely. Brittany was entirely— Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: --under the German. Interviewer: Now, did you have any problem moving from the occupied zone to the— Veteran: I had a problem to cross the line. Interviewer: So, that was where you snuck across the canal? Or…? Veteran: Yes, I had a problem. The first time I crossed, it was heavily guarded by the Germans. And the first time I crossed it wasn’t too bad. You know, we removed our pants and we walk in the water. You know? And we—the second one was a canal so we had a boat, which was— someone was helping us. So, we went all the way to the border of Spain. Interviewer: Right. (00:10:04) Veteran: And we were going to go to the mountains, to the Pyrenees, when I met someone who came from the jails in Spain. He said, “Don’t go there.” He said, “Franco is a friend of Hitler. No way; you are going to spend a lot of time in jail.” So, I didn’t go and my friend also. So, from there we went to Marseille and to Corsica, with the intention to go Algeria or Tunisia and Morocco to Gibraltar, but we didn’t make it. Interviewer: Okay. Now but did you get to Corsica? Veteran: I went to Corsica for three months. �10 Interviewer: Okay, and how did you get to Corsica? Veteran: By boat. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: It was a cargo. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Cargo ship. Interviewer: Now, did you have any money? Veteran: We didn’t have much money, no. And we work in Corsica. We were making charcoal in the mountain. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: With mules…It was a good time, but we were hungry. Very hungry. And being not properly fed. And we were living in a former prison. And—a normal prison. And during the day we were working, you know, in the mountain the whole day and come back in the evening. And someone said, “I saw a place where there are a lot of potatoes.” So, we decided to go into that farm at night. And I remember we—someone came up with the idea of putting a string on our ankles and putting the potatoes through our zipper around our legs. And we came in at 2-3 o’clock in the morning hungry like hell. So, we immediately…We cooked the potatoes and they had a funny taste. They were kind of sweet. But the next morning—we were maybe 50-60 guys there—sick like hell. Completely sick: throwing up, diarrhea, and everything else. They were seeded: potato seed with DDT on it. Interviewer: Oh… (00:12:38) �11 Veteran: We didn’t know about it. We—for 2 or 3 days, we couldn’t move. We were very sick. But finally, everything came out okay, you know. One of the stories. Interviewer: Alright. Now, as you were moving through France at that point, when you were…How did you find people to help you? Did you just walk up to people and talk to them? Or…? Veteran: Well, we didn’t have much to lose, you know. So, by talking to people, we could find something to do. Like we did work on the roads, making new roads, for the government in the free zone. And I passed the line four times—the demarcation line. The third time I had a hard time. Very difficult thing. We went through Bordeaux. You know where Bordeaux is. At that time, a German general was killed and they thought the Underground was responsible for that. So, when we went to the demarcation line, the Germans were on their toes, you know, with double patrols and stuff like that. And no one could help us to go through. But then we find one guy who told us how to do it. We were two guys, my best friend and I. And we had—at 2 o’clock in the morning, we went through two big building while the Germans were sleeping there. And we walked for maybe half an hour. And the—we were told we are going to reach a creek. (00:14:30) Veteran: And we did. And they told us when you’re on the creek, stay in the creek for 15 minutes and going right, you know, through the creek. At that time, you could hear the dogs barking. The Germans knew something was going on there. But we got out from the creek and we found a paved road. And when we walked on the paved road, it was almost—it was dark but not that dark. You could see the trees and the shade like that. And I saw someone smoking. And all of a sudden in French he said, “What the hell are you doing here?” It was a soldier from the �12 Vichy group. And he couldn’t believe we went through the line at that time, you know? And after that we took the train and we went on our way. Interviewer: Okay. So, the Vichy soldier wasn’t interested in stopping you? Veteran: No, he was not. No, no, no. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: He couldn’t believe we passed it. Interviewer: Alright. Now, that’s getting us a little bit ahead in your story so let’s go back to the point when you are in Corsica. Now, was this still 1940 when you were in Corsica? Or was this now 1941? Veteran: ’41. Interviewer: It was in ’41. Veteran: ’41. Interviewer: Okay. And you said you stayed there about three months, doing that— Veteran: About three months, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And then— Veteran: A beautiful place. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Beautiful. Interviewer: And then how did you come to leave there? (00:16:06) �13 Veteran: Because we work. We work making charcoal. Interviewer: Right. But then at some point—but you only stayed for three months. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, why did you go from there? Veteran: Well…I—first of all, when we came to Corsica, we went to a town by the name of Bastia. And then we took the train all the way to Porto-Vecchio on the very south end of Corsica. And in Porto-Vecchio we were hungry. You know, we didn’t work. We did not have much money. And we were sitting in front of a church and someone came in and says in French, “You look pretty sad.” You know, we were sad and hungry. And we told him, we says that we’d like to find a job and we’d like to eat. “Oh,” he says, “you came at the right time. We have a funeral this afternoon and after the funeral there is a big banquet.” So, we waited and we went into the church. Only the men were going to the church. The women stayed outside. And they all were like the Ku Klux Klan. Interviewer: With black veils and hoods. Veteran: The whites—it was white. All white. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Veil like that, you know. And we stay with all the men. And when we came out, we went to the house where the banquet was served. We got a fiesta, that beautiful thing. And that’s—the next day…It’s amazing I can remember that. We met a farmer. His name was Rossi. I remember his name: Rossi. And we told him that we look for a job and we were looking for �14 something to eat. He says—they have a language of their own over there, you know: French and Italian or something like that. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:18:23) Veteran: And we went to his farm and, in his language, he told his wife and his two daughters to prepare a meal, in his language. We didn’t know he was doing this. We had a good meal at that time. And I remember the name: Rossi. Amazing. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And after that we couldn’t go to Tunisia or Morocco, Algeria…So, we came back to France at that time. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I was—I found a job at Laval. There was a place by the name of Richard Brothers. And they were manufacturing cameras for the aircraft, for the aircraft industry. For the German. And one day, I was on a lathe. Very—a Swiss lathe. Beautiful lathe. Beautiful shop. And 8 o’clock in the morning while I was there, all of a sudden from the office, a girl came in rushing and said, “Trucks of German are landing the Germans in front of the plants.” I didn’t wait a second. I stopped my machine, I run from the back, I pick up my bicycle, I jump over the wall and they never saw me again. They were searching for laborers for Germany. Interviewer: Okay. (00:20:10) Veteran: And they would—no question asked—they would put you in a freight train and the you were locked in all the way to Germany and then work for the Germans, you know. Interviewer: Right. �15 Veteran: But I didn’t do that. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: The next night, I took a train at night, 2 o’clock in the morning, and I went back to Brittany, to Germany—to Morlaix. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. And after that, that continued after that. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So— Veteran: But I was glad I did that because a lot of young guys like me went to Germany and they never came back. Interviewer: Yeah. Because they were slave laborers. Veteran: Slave laborer, exactly. Interviewer: And they were not treated well or fed well. Veteran: Oh yes, yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. And okay, but basically the French people—they knew enough about how it worked so the girl recognized it and warned you. Veteran: Oh yes, we knew that. Interviewer: Now, did the— �16 Veteran: The advantage when I went back home—I decided to hide for a while. And my nextdoor neighbors in Morlaix were a brother and farm about half an hour away from my home, bicycle. And so, I spent two or three months there. I never worked so hard in my life, you know, at that farm. That was a rough, rough work. And the food wasn’t very good. Too much greasy food. And I told the farmer one time, I says, “I’ve had enough of it. I am going to leave.” He says—he agreed with me. And he says, “Before you leave, in Morlaix go see the doctor.” LeDuc was his name. He was one of the chiefs of the FFE—FFI. Interviewer: Explain what that was. (00:22:09) Veteran: And what happened was I didn’t— Interviewer: Wait, that’s—whoa. The FFI. Veteran: FFI. Interviewer: What was that? Veteran: That was De Gaulle’s party, DeGaulle... Interviewer: Right. So, the Free French of the Interior. Veteran: Free French whatever… Interviewer: Of the Interior I think was what they called it. Veteran: Interior, yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. �17 Veteran: And anyway, I went to see the doctor, which I knew because we used to play volleyball on the beach many times. And what happened is not far from my hometown was a town by the name of Carantec (00:22:43). I don’t know if you know the name. Carantec (00:22:47). Interviewer: Is it C-A-R— Veteran: It’s right on the…maybe half an hour by bicycle from my hometown. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And there was a ship builder for fishing industry. He used to make trawlers, maybe 3540 feet with a sail and a diesel engine. And during the entire period of the war, he built 17 ships. Which, he worked at night with a group of maybe 50-60 guys like me, took them to England. And they did, on D-Day they were there, you know. Anyway, the doctor told me that it’s a bad time right now because the Gestapo is there in the Carantec, searching (00:23:50). He said, “You will have to come back.” But I didn’t wait. So, I left Morlaix and I went to Brest. And at Brest, I found someone who told me they are looking for a lathe operator across the bay in a big, huge base. Lanvéoc was the name of the town. Lanvéoc (00:24:14). At one time, there was a big base; they had 250 planes there, to give you an idea. Coming back from Libya at the time without a sign. And so, I work in the garage at the lathe operator there. And then, that was the end of 1943. At that time, I met my best friend, you know. And we went to the Underground. (00:24:44) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: At that time. At the early 1943. Interviewer: Alright. Now, while you were—how long were you working in Brest? Veteran: For a couple years. A year and a half maybe. �18 Interviewer: Okay. Now during that time, did the Germans ever come looking for more laborers? Veteran: No, not there. Interviewer: Okay. So, they were already doing something that was useful for the Germans? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I changed my ID. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I changed my clothes. I was dressed in navy blue with a Marine cap, you know. Just like they were using in the Merchant Marines. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I was never stopped crossing the bay. Never stopped. Because I stayed on the side of the German. I never spoke. I didn’t speak English. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Didn’t speak German. Yeah. But it went okay. I managed. Interviewer: Alright. And then, while you were in Brest, where did you live or who did you live with? �19 Veteran: Lanvéoc was a little town, maybe of 1000 people maybe. Close to the base. And we were eating in a pension. Good place but not much food. And we were living in—we rented the room where I told you the bombs fell in. And I had a hard time there. Very hard time. Interviewer: Okay. Well, I don’t think you— Veteran: I get confused with some of these. Interviewer: Okay. You mentioned—so you were—that area was bombed while you were living there? (00:26:28) Veteran: Many times. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Many times. And…we were poorly trained in the Underground. And we were poorly armed. We didn’t have any arms. And my first assignment was a—I was told what to do. We were a group of 3 people, you know. And at that time, the Germans were picking up all the cows that they could get, all the meat they could get. For their army—people were not eating meat at all in that part of France. So, the idea was to go to the farm, to cut operated farms, and they gave me a machete. That’s all. And I had a revolver which was not a revolver, it was a lighter. But they also—the other two guys had regular revolvers, regular ammo. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And I stole a stocking off an old lady there and I put an opening for my eyes and I put it on my head. You know? All black. And we left maybe at 1 o’clock in the morning, something like that. And while we were walking, we could hear someone coming: the Germans. There was a patrol. And so, there was ditches on both sides so we got in the right-side ditch and we stayed �20 low there. They came 4-5 feet away from us. Two guys smoking and talking in German. And when they were gone, we went back on the road and we went on the farm. (00:28:38) Veteran: And the two other guys went in front of the farm and the back of the farm with a flashlight, and they had instructions for the farmer. And for me, I had to go to the barn. And most of the cows during the night, they sleep not the floor; they sleep up. They are way up like that. And the idea was for me to cut the tendon on the back of the cow. You know they have a tendon there. And when the tendon is cut, the cow collapse, clearly ready to be butchered. You know? Anyway, I was struggling. I was kind of scared, you know? I never did something like that. I was 17-18 years old. And finally, I decided I have to do it. And I do that—I get that on two cows. And the instruction was to the farmer, which was a collaborator, to send the two cows to the butcher. And the butcher would sell the meat to the population. Like that, at least for a few days they would have some meat to eat. And we went through the farm like that and we went back home, and that was it. And the Germans—I don’t think they knew what happened because the farmers were afraid of us, you know, for some reason. The second mission we had…Have you ever heard about the Todt Army? In Germany, the Todt Army? (00:30:28) Interviewer: Oh, the…yeah, the… Veteran: They were the builders… Interviewer: Right. Veteran: …of the [sounds like “brown castles”] and so on like that. Interviewer: Right. �21 Veteran: Next to the town of Lanvéoc they had a huge depot. Huge depot. Thousands of barrels of gasoline and diesel. And we were about 50 guys that night. And we could see; it was not too dark for some reason. And they gave us some picks. You know the picks? And the idea was to punch holes in all those barrels, as many as we could. Stupid thing. Which we did. The gasoline and diesel were running maybe two inches on the ground, all over the place. We were soaked with gasoline. And imagine if a spark would have started a fire? We had no chance at all. But we accomplished quite a bit there. And we flew the coop after that. Interviewer: Okay. So, did the Germ— Veteran: And the Germans were after that investigating but they never found out we were there, you know. Interviewer: Okay. So, you—the Germans didn’t hear you while you were…? Veteran: There was a patrol but we waited maybe half an hour before they were far away. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, they—maybe they heard us but I don’t think so. Interviewer: Okay. But the—now, was this fuel dump—was this inside of a fortified place? Or just sitting in the open? Veteran: No, there was a city but there was a wall. And there was big gates, which someone opened the gates for some reason. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we went into the gate. And after that, we were soaking in that mixture of gasoline and diesel oil. �22 Interviewer: Okay. (00:32:28) Veteran: What a mess. Interviewer: Alright, so the English term for this German group was called the Todt Organization, because Fritz Todt was— Veteran: Todt, yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, you had pronounced it Todt. But—and basically, they were in charge of all kinds of military construction for the Germans. Veteran: They built the Atlantic Wall. Interviewer: Yes. Veteran: You know? They were the ones. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now to go back again a little bit—you said at the point when you decided to join the Resistance, did you just go to Carantec? Or back to the doctor? Or how did you join the Resistance? Veteran: Just like that. We had no—we didn’t sign anything. Interviewer: But who did you go to? Or where did you go for that? Veteran: We stayed in town. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We stayed there. We worked during the day and if we did something, it was at night most of the time. �23 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But we were involved in putting some planks on the road with nails on it to make sure that the tires of the German truck would blow out, you know. Interviewer: But did you know who was in the Resistance? So, who to talk to? Veteran: Oh yes, oh yes. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I remember my officer. His name was Bébéac (00:33:45). He was a major in the army. He was in charge of us. We were about, altogether, maybe 500. Altogether, you know. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You know? Interviewer: And— Veteran: And we did a lot of work there. A lot of stupid things. Interviewer: Now, were there—was there a danger of having collaborators betray you? Did you have to be afraid? (00:34:12) Veteran: We had problems. We had some problems. Oh yes. One time, among us there was a guy from Alsace who spoke fluently German. And he went to the officer in charge of that location, telling the French Resistance were in that wood here. And there was a group, maybe 10 guys. My best friend was there. And but they didn’t have any weapons at all. So, they were arrested and they went to another town, which was by the name of Crozon (00:35:00). Crozon was the town, which is still there you know. And I got a mission. I got to tell you something �24 amusing. I was lucky; very lucky. I was told to carry on my bicycle 4 revolvers with ammunition in it. Yeah, ammunition and also cartridges. And on my bicycle, I had a basket in front of my bicycle. And so, I put the 4 revolvers here and I put some newspapers and some carrots and stuff like that on top of it to hide it. And I had two ways to go to the town. I could take the paved road or the dirt road. Paved road was being utilized by the Germans a lot, so I chose to pick up the other road, you know. The time was the same: maybe almost an hour. And it was a hot day; August, ’43. So, I was peddling down the road: there is nobody there. And the road was turning. All of a sudden, I faced 5, 6, 7 of the Germans on maneuvers. They removed their helmets and they were hiking and singing at the same time. With my 4 revolvers there, I went through the group like that and not a single one stopped me. Imagine? How lucky can you be? If I would have been stopped, I wouldn’t be here today. Interviewer: Right. (00:36:54) Veteran: That’s for sure. And finally, I went to that town and I gave them the 4 revolvers, to someone. And they were planning to attack the Germans for liberating those 10 guys, you know? But for some reason there was an officer, which he was a German, from the Cameroon in… Interviewer: Africa, yeah. Veteran: Africa. And he helped us to free those guys. Imagine—in Lanvéoc (00:37:31), we had in the restaurant all those guys from the Underground and one officer—he was a captain, I think, or colonel…Or major, he was a major. And he was the only German there. And we promised him—he knew the war was going to be lost for Germany. He knew that. He said, “The only thing I want you to do is to try to find me after the war.” Which I did. He was in Canada. Prisoner of war. And he was liberated thanks to us. To give you an idea. �25 Interviewer: Wow. Veteran: Yeah, that was quite a story. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, he had been from like a German family that had gone to Cameroon as part of their colonial regime there? Veteran: Yes, that’s right. He was born in Cameroon. Interviewer: Born in Cameroon and then came back. (00:38:21) Veteran: Oh yes. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: Amazing, isn’t it? Interviewer: Yeah, that is something. Alright. Veteran: Anyway, to give you some idea…By that time, there was a 1944 after D-Day The Patton army, the Third Army, was close to Brest. They say, and don’t quote me, but it was over 100,000 Germans there. But I am not for sure. And I was—the bay across Brest is huge, like I said before. And a lot of cargoes—German cargoes—were going through the—close to the front, to the shore for camouflage I guess, you know. And I saw one time 17 ships sunk. I saw one close to me. The bow of the ship was sinking and the rail of the ship—they were still antiaircraft gun shooting at the planes. And I saw the plane—the cargo ship—going completely down. I didn’t see anything coming out of it. That was something to see. Anyway, one day I was on my �26 bicycle and I was going from Lanvéoc (00:40:02) to a town by the name of Le Fret. And the town was very close to the ocean. And…like 100 feet maybe. But I saw a bunch of diver planes from this country here diving but I couldn’t see what happened to the cargo ship. And they were diving to try to sink the ship. So, I was on my bicycle and I felt unease. (00:40:39) Veteran: And I crossed a guy, a lone guy. He had a cane; he was walking on the road. And I decided I am going to stop. I stopped my bicycle on the left side of the road and I went into the ditch. The ditch was maybe a couple feet deep. And I laid down there, and I could see the planes launching the bomb—two bombs—over me. But the last plane triggered the bomb too quick, and I saw those two bombs coming at me. Completely at me. And so, I went—I was completely on my belly at that time. The two bombs fell in the other ditch of the road. And I saw tons of trash going into the air, falling on me. And the only thing I remember: I was scared of being hit by a stone, a big stone, which I did not. And I knew there was a last plane. I didn’t pay attention to whether the ship was sunk or not. So, I get up from the—where I was—and shook the dirt from me and from the best bicycle. And I saw the old man still walking with his cane. And I jumped on my bicycle. I didn’t go very far, I was trembling. I was really, really shocked, you know, at that time. But that was the way of life I guess, you know? (00:42:24) Interviewer: Okay. Now, when the D-Day invasion took place— Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: --part of the plan was to have the French Resistance across the country rise up and— Veteran: Which we did. Interviewer: So, what did your unit do in connection with D-Day? �27 Veteran: We were far from D-Day. Interviewer: Yes. Veteran: We were close to Brest. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And most of the time, we did some things like I said. I told you, you know. But at one time, when the Patton army was close by, they gave to the civilians of the peninsula a—if you want to leave, you can leave; we will let you go. You know? So, what we did: we did not bring any weapons of any kind. We went with the people there. And we were out of the peninsula for 2 or 3 days in March. A lot of farmers were there with their horses and carriages. Anyway, I saw the first American there after we reached the location. And so, they—we organized ourself—the officers—and we were a group of about 500 roughly. And they—we got armed at that time. I got a Sten submachine gun. And oh, they give you a revolver and blankets and everything. And we start—we were the only units with Americans because we were from that location. We knew the location of a lot of the cannons and stuff like that. And we had a hard time. (00:44:31) Veteran: Before we start moving, we came to—in front of a town by the name of—Telgruc was the name of the town. And during the day, the Germans left the town, going to the sea, going to the ocean. And we had the American not receive any news of the moving. And they thought the town was occupied. But at that time, a part of my unit and a group of Americans were in that town. And there was a friendly fire. They came with Bombers, B-26 Bombers, like that. And they shaved the town. We lost 50 guys. Interviewer: Wow. �28 Veteran: And the American lost over 100 that day. So, we had to—we were maybe a mile from the town. Beautiful day; not a cloud in the sky. We had those red…what’s the name of that? Red carpet to say we are friendly. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But they didn’t see it and they shaved the town completely. But finally, they reached the headquarters and it was okay. So, we went to the town. It wasn’t very pretty to see. Interviewer: Right. (00:46:15) Veteran: There was bodies all over the place, you know. And all of a sudden, someone says, “I found some rum.” And there was a big barrel of rum and—from Jamaica. So, we were drunk that night. If the Germans would ever attack us, we—no way we would be in good shape for that, you know. And I can’t stand rum since then. I was sick with it, very sick. Interviewer: Well, wasn’t that your second episode with rum? Veteran: It was the second time. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Second time, yeah. First time was in 1940. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Yeah. And we went with the Americans. And I remember we were very close to the ocean on the left side. And where we were, the Germans built a trench: a zigzag trench, maybe two feet deep, two feet wide maybe. And at the bottom of their trench was sand. So, from the coast, the Germans saw us you know. We were 500 people—that’s quite a bit. And they start shooting the 88s all over the place. So, immediately we went to the ditch—to the zigzag ditch. �29 Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And I was there on my belly and there was a guy 3-4 feet away from me. And all of a sudden, a shrapnel fell in between my head and the feet of the other guys in the sand. I didn’t see the shrapnel, but it was hot like hell. Very hot for 3-4 minutes. That was a close one, but I didn’t—I was in between, you know? And after that, we start moving in a second line. There was a first line and we came in a second line. First time for me to fight like a regular unit. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:48:29) Veteran: And there was a valley, a big valley. So, in second line—that’s pretty good. And I found the farmers were gone. And I found a shelter in that farm made of railroad ties, well made. And had 3 other guys with me: a machine gunner and two helpers. They slept that night in a barn, but I slept in the shelter. I was sound asleep. You could hear the shells. They were shooting, you know, the shells but not close to us. All of a sudden, hell break loose—broke loose. The Germans have the 20mm guns, 4 guns. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They had maybe 2 dozen of it across the valley and they were shooting at us over the first line. I was sound asleep. I wasn’t aware of what was going on until finally I heard, “We are hit! We are hit!” in the barn. So, finally, I took my gun with me and I rushed to the barn. And next to me was a truck. It was a truck full of food. It was a truck for eating, you know. In flames, completely in flames. You could see like you see now today in daylight. So, I went to the barn and I helped one guy. He had a shot right in his leg. (00:50:30) Veteran: And the other one took the other guy with me. And very close to us was the MASH unit—American MASH. And almost daylight, the Germans saw us, I am sure. We walk on the �30 road there and we went into the MASH unit. And I was humbled to see how they were doing. They were in a square form, you know, with big tents. And the doctors and nurses, all American, were operating. One of our guys lost an arm just from the fighting. And when I saw those girls in particular, I felt humbled. Really good. It was fantastic because the only protection was the tents. But it was okay. And where I was, about 20 Germans surrendered. They went to the front line, no one saw them, and finally they came to us and we arrested about 20 guys like that. It was quite a night…The next day, start digging holes all over the place. We didn’t do before, you know. And not far from us, there was a hill—a good size hill-maybe a couple hundred feet tall. And on this hill was a machine gun. A German machine gun. (00:52:21) Veteran: And the Americans tried to take the hill. They didn’t do it. So, they sent us there the next night. And I remember I was in a ditch, hiding in the ditch. And but I was not in front with the group. And one officer spoke German—one of our officers—he spoke German. And he heard someone coming on the road. Paved road. And the Germans with their boots—and every time they walked on the stone you could hear them coming in the dead of the night. And that officer captured an officer—a German officer. So, he decided to take some of us, which I didn’t do it; I stayed in the ditch. And they followed the Germans because they had mines all over the place. And they were able to take the entire group of Germans there in the midst of the night. And in the morning daylight, we start moving in now and they are all set. First thing I did, I went to the bottom of the hill on the other side, and they had a dorm there for the Germans. There was a lot of bunkbeds all over the place, you know. And it was clear; you could see that. So, I went inside of it and there was a German—that German on the top of the beds, you know? So, I was looking for something to bring with me. I went around the bed like that. On the other side of the bed— �31 gee, the German skull was cut in half. And I couldn’t take it. I went outside, I threw up outside. I didn’t go back in to get stuff. I was really shook up to see that. (00:54:36) Veteran: But after that, we start moving and we move. In two or three days, we were close to Crozon, that town near…And in Brest, there was an SS regiment of paratroopers [German paratroopers were part of the Luftwaffe, not the SS, but still elite troops]. The general in charge of the paratroopers was General Ramcke. I remember the name of it. And he received the order from Hitler not to surrender. And it took four weeks to—the American and the French—to finish it. And we had casualties, some casualties. But it was a win for us, you know. We chose to be like that. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And… Interviewer: Were you engaged in that fighting? Or were you— Veteran: Oh yes, yes. Oh yeah, yeah. And we came to the town of Crozon (00:55:42). And I had a book here, I was telling my son. I brought back a book about it, about the entire fighting, you know. And I don’t know when I moved what happened to that book. It was a big book with a lot of pictures in it. But finally, they surrendered. And it was the end of Brittany’s war, at the time. Interviewer: Right. (00:56:11) Veteran: And from there, I went back to my home in Lanvéoc. That’s where I told you I found my album of photos at that time. My bicycle, I didn’t find it. And from there, we went to Quimper. I don’t know if you know the town? Interviewer: Yeah. �32 Veteran: At Quimper, we joined the French Army. And they sent us to a town by the name of Ponthivy (00:56:43), with the 15 Dragon [15th Dragoons]. There we got into a very intense training. We were really well trained at that time. Interviewer: Okay. And the— Veteran: And then after that, I was responsible—I was a sergeant—for distributing gasoline. That was a very good job. And my company—my regiment went to Lorient (00:57:13), where they had 40,000 Germans in a pocket. Another pocket was St. Nazaire. They had another 40,000 in there too. But we stay at Lorient. And we kept the Germans from escaping at that time. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And back to the quarters, one day they asked for volunteers to make a commando. So, I put my name there. And I put the name of my friend also. And big mistake. Big mistake. What— they had a no man’s land there in Lorient (00:57:54) maybe 1 or 2 kilometers—1 kilometers maybe—wide. And we had to go at night, ambush the Germans, and take as many prisoners as we could for interrogation. I never caught a German at all. But…it was scary. (00:58:17) Interviewer: Well, how many of you went in this group? Veteran: We were 50. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: In the commando. And Armistice Day, May the 8th, 1945. On the day before, they sent us there. I was mad like hell. But we went very close to the line, the German line. Some of us—I didn’t—could hear the Germans talking. So close. And we spent the night there. And when it came to the morning, you know, daylight, and our lieutenant—Lieutenant Vougeau—said, �33 “Okay, we are going back to our lines.” You know? And the Germans saw us. We were walking on a small farmer’s road, unpaved, maybe a foot and a half, two feet deep. Not very wide— maybe fifteen feet wide. And we were on our belly there, 50 of us. They sent maybe, I don’t know…many, many shells, many 88 shells all over us. I couldn’t see from here to here. There was so much dust coming down all over us. And believe me or not, one single shell fell on us— not one. After they stopped—and we crawled, we removed the dirt—we crawled on our belly as far as we could. And we went over the hill and we start going up. You could hear the bugles sounding the end of the war. That close. Interviewer: Right. (01:00:17) Veteran: To give you an idea. The last day of the war. Interviewer: Okay. So, you basically spent your time in the French Army during the war outside of Lorient (01:00:28). Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: And so that was kind of—you were simply guarding the Germans. Veteran: Yes, yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Now— Veteran: After that, we went back to our headquarters in Ponthivy. And we—for some reason, they sent us to the center of France. Argentan was the name of the town. And we didn’t—the war was over. Interviewer: Right. �34 Veteran: By then, you know. And that’s a good life. Because being in charge of the gasoline— we always make sure we have some left in our tank. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And for gasoline for a Jerry can of gas. We stopped at an inn where beautiful dinner every time we went like that. That was one of the best times in my life. Interviewer: Alright. Alright, so we had taken your—the main line of your story now through the end of the war in 1945. I’d like to ask a little bit more just about different aspects of life in France during that period of the occupation. And I guess the first question is what kind of impressions did you have of the Germans? Did you— Veteran: Well, regular Germans were okay. You know? But the Gestapo, the SS were bad. Really bad. Especially the Gestapo. And they killed a lot of people in France at that time. There is a town not far from my town. The name of the town is Carhaix. It is about two hours by bicycle, you know. And they picked up 20-25 guys from the Underground. And they were hanged in the main street for one month. (01:02:36) Veteran: No one could touch them. It was awful. The smell was awful. Things like that were bad. You know? For each German killed, they would kill 50. And that’s the truth. And that farm— you know I told you I was hiding at the farm? After I left—two weeks after I left—there was a group of Underground people, they were about 20. And they asked the farmer if they could sleep overnight in the barn. Farmer said, “Sure, why not?” Among the group, they had a Frenchman traitor. Maybe I told you that? Interviewer: Well, you told me about the traitor who—the one who was from Alsace who ratted on your friend. �35 Veteran: Oh no, this is different. Interviewer: This is different, okay. Veteran: This was at the farm. And anyway, he went to fetch the Germans during the night. In the morning, a truck of Germans drove onto the farm, you know? And the farmer, which was maybe 45 years old, something like that. And there was two other guys there, like me, working. And they were taken prisoner. They were killed. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And only his wife and kids survived at that time. Interviewer: But the Resistance men had already left? Veteran: Pardon me? Interviewer: The Resistance fighters, they were already gone? Or were they captured too? Veteran: No, they were there. They were taken. They were 20 guys. Interviewer: They were captured too, okay. (01:04:17) Veteran: And they were shot. They were not shot on the spot; they were shot someplace else. You know? Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Things like that. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, did you ever have any dealings with the Gestapo yourself? Did you ever encounter— �36 Veteran: No, I never did. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: When I left Laval to go back to Morlaix, the French police came to my house looking for me. But I was gone in a farm at that time. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, I was not…And I decided if I work directly for the German, I have a better chance. Which I did. I never was arrested after that. I was lucky. Interviewer: Alright. And…The ordinary—the regular German soldiers— Veteran: They were okay. My boss in a garage there at the base—we were friends. He was a good man. You know? Interviewer: Okay, so you were working for Germans on the base outside of Brest? Veteran: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And— Veteran: It was a big base. Interviewer: Okay. And then the…What…How did most French people deal with the occupation? Did they just try to go about their lives? Or…? Veteran: 99% “Vive de Gaulle” (01:05:42). �37 Interviewer: Well, after the war. Veteran: After the war. Interviewer: Yeah. But during the war? Veteran: Well, even during the war. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Oh yes. Yeah, the French people were opposed to occupation. That’s for sure. Interviewer: How many—so, you don’t think there were—you didn’t notice that many collaborators? Veteran: There was a few. And they were all dealt with after the war. One stupid thing they did, the French people, they cut the hair of the women to frater—to be with the Germans, you know. That was a stupid thing. I was not for that. (01:06:19) Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Yeah. Anyway, that is sort of my story. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And after not, the government regiment—we went from Argentan-sur-Creuse (01:06:30) to a town north of that by the name of Loches. And they asked me in September 1945 to take another year. I said, “No. I am not. I am going home.” Which I did. And the regiment went to Germany for occupation for three months. And after that, they went to Vietnam to Indochina. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, so you—so, September ’45 you are out of the Army— �38 Veteran: I was out of the Army. I went back home. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I went back to the base, occupied by the French Navy at that time. Interviewer: Now, did you go back to work there or what did you— Veteran: I went back to work on the lathe. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: At that time, yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And now, 6 years later you will go to the United States but in between, what did you do between 19— Veteran: I worked for Citroën. Interviewer: Okay, and when did you— Veteran: I was a young engineer at the time. Interviewer: Okay. So, when did you start working for them? Veteran: Just after that. Interviewer: Okay. So, in ’46 or…? Veteran: After the… Interviewer: After you left the Army? Veteran: After I left the Army, yep. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how did you get a job with them? �39 Veteran: Well, I just went to my—to the office of the base and I told them I worked there. And if I could work on the lathes. They said, “Yes, you can.” They were looking for someone. Interviewer: Right. (01:08:04) Veteran: And I worked there. As a matter of fact, the first Christmas I was there in 1945-46. They were looking for someone to be Santa Claus. I said, “Why not?” I put my name on the board there, you know. I was the only one; nobody else volunteered. And they had an idea for me to take a plane and going at sea and we would get a radio from the headquarters when all the kids were there and the families and everything else to come back, you know. And it was a sea plane; a British sea plane. Big plane. There were a pilot, radio, and I. So, that day we had a very good lunch. Very good lunch. A little bit too much to drink. And we flew—I never played the be in an airplane before; that was the first time. All dressed up as Santa Claus. And we took off from the bay and we went at sea. And for maybe an hour we flew. And we received a message everything was okay to come back. So, the pilot came back and he wanted to show the kids a little bit of a—this strange thing, you know. So, he went down on the ocean and he went up like that. When he went up, I saw the whole god damn ground coming up, you know. And I couldn’t take it anymore. I threw up on the window, and I threw up everything. And finally, we landed. There was a ramp there. And I couldn’t walk. I was really in bad shape. But finally, I made it. You know, finally I—but all the stuff stuck to the fuselage. Everybody was laughing, but not me. To give you an idea. (01:10:29) Interviewer: Alright. Well, how did you go form working for the French Navy to working for Citroën? �40 Veteran: Well…I met my wife in Morlaix to a dance. And we were together quite a—by the time. I—one thing I did, I brought from the war a motorcycle: Norton 500. And I found a sidecar to go with it. And my future wife and I—we went all over the place like that. It was a good time for me after the war. And we decided to get married. And well, I went to Paris. Her uncle and her aunt were living there at Kremlin-Bicêtre, Porte d’Italie (01:11:28). Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And so, I went to work there. And I sold my motorcycle and my sidecar to pay a down payment on an apartment. And we were living close to the Hôtel de Ville, if you know the place. The City Hall. Interviewer: Okay, in Paris? Veteran: In Paris. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Big City Hall. Interviewer: Yeah. That’s a good real estate, yeah. Veteran: And I was in Paris and from there I moved to Citroën, close to the Statue of Liberty there. You know, on— Interviewer: Yeah, on the River Seine. Veteran: On the River Seine there. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Yeah. �41 Interviewer: On kind of the south—the west end. Veteran: That’s right. That’s right, yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, the tour boats go around it. (01:12:21) Veteran: We were in Paris for 5 years. And at that time, we didn’t make much money, even as an engineer. So, I decided to come here at that time. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you have any friends or relatives or…? Veteran: No one. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But my wife had some friends in New York. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Which sponsored me. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: To come to this country. That was good. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I came to this country November the 1st, 1951. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And then, how long did it take for you to find a job? Veteran: One day. �42 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: One day. Interviewer: Now, did you speak any English yet? Veteran: No. No speaking—didn’t speak English at all. Interviewer: Okay, so what— Veteran: Just a few. Interviewer: Okay, so what job did you get? Veteran: I went—I found a shop. The name was Speed Ring. And they were working at that time for Holley Carburator. There was 8 guys working in the shop and 2 owners. And that’s the only place I worked in this country. For 68 years, I worked there in that—no, 60-oddsome years. And I—we grew from 10 to 3000. We grew up. Interviewer: Okay. And then when did you come to Michigan? Veteran: That was the November the 1st. Interviewer: Oh, so you got the job—you went— Veteran: In Detroit. Interviewer: Oh. You went—so, your friends were in New York. Veteran: And I went to Warren to Sherwood. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: To Sherwood here in Warren. �43 Interviewer: Okay. Because I guess your wife’s friends were in New York. Veteran: In New York. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And what I did when I came here alone, I sponsored my wife. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Which we came through Canada, and she came here after that. Interviewer: Right. Okay. But I guess, how did you get from New York to Michigan? Did you apply for the job while you were in New York? Veteran: I didn’t go to New York. Interviewer: Oh. Oh— Veteran: I went through Windsor. Interviewer: Oh, okay. Okay. (01:14:30) Veteran: And Windsor to Detroit. Interviewer: Alright. So, you went straight there. So, your sponsors were in New York but you did not go that way. Veteran: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Now I get it. Veteran: And 5 years after I was there to the day, I became a citizen. And I was clear for secret clearances 3 times. �44 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Now, what kind of different work did you do for that company? Because you were going to be— Veteran: Well, I worked on the lathes for a year. And I worked with the creative engineering at that time. I was an engineer. And I stayed in engineering for quite some time. And I was part of the management after that for many years. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did your company work with NASA? Veteran: We worked for NASA. Interviewer: What did you do with that? Or what did your company do? Veteran: I was involved in making a guidance for the Pilot Program. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we worked with a special metal by the name of beryllium. Pure beryllium. Very expensive. The price of gold. A pound of beryllium versus the price of gold. There was no difference, to give you an idea. And still today, going in outer space, that’s the metal they use. That’s a rare metal. You know? On the elements chart. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: You know? (01:16:09) Interviewer: Now, did you ever go to Cape Canaveral or any of those places? �45 Veteran: I went to Florida quite a few times. I went to Huntsville quite a few times. I saw Von Braun there. And we had a big plant in Coleman, Alabama; about 300 or 400 people there. Good size. And we had three plants in Cleveland. We had—in Tennessee we had one plant. And in Orlando also. We had three plants in Orlando. Yeah. Interviewer: Now, is that company still in business or— Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: It hasn’t been bought by someone else? Veteran: It is. They are not Speed Ring anymore. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I don’t remember the name now. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, because a lot of those companies got bought by bigger companies. Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. Interviewer: And kept going. Veteran: But the big company—they are public now. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Now, when you think back about that period of—during the war— are there other memories that stand out for you that you haven’t brought into the story yet? �46 Veteran: Well, I had some rough time, I had some good time during that time. Interviewer: What kind of good times did you have then? Veteran: Well, after the war; when the war was over. Like I told you, our regiment—we had a lot of—it was motorized. And the—every week we had three companies we had to bring together every time every week. And we had a lot of light tanks. Bren Carrier. Bren Carriers—you know the name of the Bren Carriers? You know. (01:18:13) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: From the British. They were full of sand, coming back from Libya. And one time, we had to go to another regular station to pick up the—we had 50 roughly, Bren Carriers—a small size and a bigger size. And the lieutenant put me the leader of that group to go back to Ponthivy, you know. And I had a problem with the levers to stop the truck, you know. But I realized if I go faster then they told me to go to, it was easier to manage the driving. So, that’s what I did: I speed up the whole thing. But on the back of me, there was 50 other Bren Carriers. And for some reason, one guy didn’t make the turn and he went into the field. And all of a sudden, my lieutenant came in; he was mad like hell. He said, “Why do you go so fast?” he says, “You’ve got to slow down.” So, that’s what I did. After that we regrouped and we went back to our normal speed but maybe 20 miles an hour. Interviewer: So, you figured out how to control it a little bit better? Veteran: Oh yes. Oh yes, yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: That was one of the problems we had. �47 Interviewer: Yeah. Now, was all of your equipment British or did you have American— Veteran: No, we had a lot of American. We had a lot of single tracks—trucks with tracks. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: You know, what was the name of the… Interviewer: Well, with our half-tracks— Veteran: Half-track! Half-track. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: We had a lot of those, you know. Interviewer: Okay. And were the tanks American or British? Veteran: The tanks were American. We had a few Cruisers, that was British. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And…When I went to school there, where I have a picture, we had a lot of Sherman. The American made a big mistake because they used—on the Sherman—a 75 cannon, which was completely wrong because the…You need three Sherman for one Tiger tank. Interviewer: Well, officially at some point, they decided 10 Shermans was a better number. Yeah, 5 for a Panther— (01:20:42) Veteran: Yeah, I remember three. Interviewer: Yep. But they were—yeah, they were under-gunned. They were mechanically reliable and you could do things with them but— �48 Veteran: But they were no good. Interviewer: But they weren’t good enough to match the German tanks. Veteran: They were no good. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They wouldn’t stop a tank. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: But they had the destroyer—tank destroyer—that had a 90mm gun. This one was good. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: It would stop a Tiger tank or Leopard. Interviewer: Yeah. And they made some versions of the Sherman that were better later— Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: But the standard one, the one you would have seen, was not—yeah. Veteran: Yes. They put the heavy cannon, which was good. Interviewer: Yep. Yeah. Alright. So, I guess again if you think about the time before the war ended—let’s see, have you told me about all 10 of your close calls? Veteran: As far as I can remember. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. �49 Veteran: The worst one was the…The Armistice Day. That one was bad. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Yeah, because I am surprised we didn’t lose anyone. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Well, you are certainly a lucky man and— Veteran: I am lucky. Interviewer: And you have a very interesting story, so— Veteran: Yeah, I am quite lucky. Interviewer: Yeah. So, I’d just like to thank you very much for taking the time to share the story today. Veteran: Yeah, okay. (01:22:03) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BertandE2313V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bertrand, Emile L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06 Title A name given to the resource Bertrand, Emile (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Emile Bertrand was born in Morlaix, France on October 26th, 1922. After graduating high school in 1939, he began working in the arsenal of Rennes as a toolmaker. While at work, he witnessed the German bombing of Rennes in June 1940. To escape the threat, he and a couple of friends biked to Nantes, stopped to stay with his family in Morlaix, and then traveled to Marseille by train. From there, he went to Corsica by boat and stayed there for three months making charcoal. Then, he went back to France and worked in manufacturing in Laval until one day he was warned that Germans had arrived to search for laborers. He immediately ran and returned home to Morlaix where he worked on a farm for a few months. After that, in 1943, he began work as a lathe operator in Lanvéoc, a small town near Brest. At this time he and his best friend joined the French Underground, a resistance movement against German occupation of France. Most of the Underground’s operations took place at night while he worked his job during the day. When the American military was near, he joined their units and began moving toward Telgruc. One day, the Germans had left Telgruc for the sea, but the Americans thought the town was still occupied, so Bertrand and the Americans he was with experienced a friendly fire from B-26 Bombers. Another time, he and the American units he was with were being shot at by Germans from sea. Bertrand and his allies all went to hide in a ditch built by Germans when he was hit by a shrapnel. The next few days were filled with fighting until finally the Germans surrendered in Crozon. From there, he stopped by home in Lanvéoc before going to Quimper to join the French Army. He was sent to Ponthivy where he joined the 15th Dragoons. He went to Lorient where his regiment’s task was to guard the Germans. After that, he went back to Ponthivy and was sent to Argentan. He was there until the war ended in 1945. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2cf8f8878e332da6c7967d0f59f67440.mp4 e282cac6652f71e49682d9ff1021320e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/35ca14acb54013b9e929d04dd8dd9ea2.pdf d0b09e03a13d41376bd9af7586026725 PDF Text Text Bergeron, Christopher Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Iraq War Interviewee’s Name: Christopher Bergeron Length of Interview: (2:03:40) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Christopher Bergeron of Rockford, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Chris, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in 1972 in Anniston, Alabama. My father was a–– recently back from his third tour in Vietnam–– soldier and my mom was Women’s Army Corps, and that’s how they met, at Anniston. Got married and I was there a year later. Interviewer: “And now, was your father’s stay in the Army–– was he a career guy?” Yeah. My dad stayed in the Army. He had a 26-year career, retired out of Fort Benning. My entire childhood we bounced between Germany and different locations in the Alabama/Georgia area. Final place we bounced to, right before I was going into high school, was Fort Benning [in] Columbus, Georgia. Dad got out and then went right back to work for ‘em as a DA Civilian and did another 24 years working with the 75th Ranger Regiment out of Benning. Interviewer: “DA Civilian?” Department of the Army. He did all of their cryptologic communications and deployed with them. He actually deployed more as a DA Civilian than he did when he was on active duty. Interviewer: “How much time did you spend in Germany?” So we were there [for] two tours. First one was when I was really young, we did three years. But the second tour was more those formative years. I was there from the time I was nine till fifteen, so pretty good second tour. My parents loved Germany so we kept extending. We extended until the Army made us go home. (2:11). �Interviewer: “Where in Germany were you living?” The second time was Baumholder, which is a tiny town probably about 60 miles due east of Trier–– that area in Luxembourg. Interviewer: “I guess I’ve heard people talk about Baumholder not always in favorable terms.” There’s always been a running joke that people would rather go to Vietnam–– when Vietnam was on–– than go to Baumholder and it has to do with where the location of it is. For me as a kid, I loved it. There were castles, there were bomb shelters by train stations to play in. We played “War” constantly on the Military reservation because we were right there in the housing area. So that was a good childhood and it was kind of, a little bit, Normal Rockwell because it was a small German town so you actually went to the market each weekend and when you bought a Christmas tree, you drug the Christmas tree home in the snow. So that was the reason my family wanted to stay there. There were a lot of people that didn’t like it just because there wasn’t a lot of–– it wasn’t Americanized at all like home. It was a very small German town and it’s up on the top of a hill where it rains constantly so it’s kind of gloomy. But like I said, it’s different strokes for different folks. I loved it there. Interviewer: “Did your family travel around a lot?” We were really fortunate, yes. My mom was Assistant Dean for one of the student colleges over there by that point and so we had an expendable income that we traveled all over Europe as children. I mean we were–– I’d say every other month we were on the train going somewhere and so. Italy, France, my parents loved Holland so we were constantly in the Holland area. Interviewer: “Did you learn German?” No. A typical ugly, American on a military base. Nobody learns a foreign language. I know enough to get around in a bahnhof, order a beer, count to a hundred, that kind of stuff but that’s just what we learned in school, but no conversational German. (4:07). Interviewer: “Then where did you finish high school?” Came back and went to Columbus High School in Columbus, Georgia and entered the Marine Corps right after high school. Interviewer: “Your father had been in the Army.” �Yep. Interviewer: “So how do you wind up in the Marine Corps?” I had been raised around the Army my entire life and I just–– I knew I wanted to go in the Military, but I wanted to do something different, and the Marine Corps was different. Parents weren’t big fans of me going to the Marines when I entered. They really expected me to go into the Army but after a couple years they were like, “Yeah, he fits in that hole better than he would have in the Army.” Interviewer: “So when do you actually join the Marines?” So July of 1990, I think it was three weeks after I graduated high school. I joined the year prior but it was in the delayed entry program waiting my entire senior year until I graduated to go to boot camp. Interviewer: “Now, when you enlisted at that point in time and we’re now in the era of allvolunteer military, were you able to request any kind of training or assignment, or was that all on hold” No I had requested–– they used to do what’s called a QEP contract, which is if you signed for six years you basically got to pick the exact job you were going to do, and I signed up to be a tanker when I went without my father to the recruiting depot and I’ll never forget coming home and telling my dad I was going to be a tanker. He–– I mean–– darn near picked me up by the scruff of my neck and took me back to the recruiting station and said, “He is way too smart to be a tanker. I know how he did on the ASVAB.” He made the recruiter basically pull the paperwork up and he says, “If you want me to sign that paperwork, we’re going to renegotiate what he’s going to do.” Dad picked that I was going to go into logistics. So he says, “There’s a future in logistics, there is not a future in tanks.” It was kind of good to have a father that was–– knew how the military worked. Interviewer: “So now where do you gotta go for boot camp?” I went to Parris Island and it was fascinating being in boot camp. I was there when Saddam invaded Kuwait, so the first four weeks was like normal boot camp. I guess that had been going on for many years and then it was–– they rolled the TVs into the squad bays, “We’re going to war” was the big thing, and boot camp kind of changed overnight. It became a little bit more of an intense experience. We were hearing the stories that we were all going to be made Infantry and that we were going back to the Vietnam times and it was kind of surreal, I guess is the easiest way to say it. (6:39). �Interviewer: “Let’s wind back and go back to that first thing. Describe the Parris Island facility a little bit. Kind of where is it, what’s it look like?” Kind of funny because we used to [go] to Holiday Inn, Hunting Island–– which is right next to Parris Island–– when I was a child. I had no idea those two things were so close. But, I can tell you that Hunting Island where I used to camp and being ten miles away from that is nothing like Parris Island. [Parris Island] is kind of like you get on the bus at Charleston Airport, they tell you to shut-up and put your head down, you get to the gates at Parris Island and the drill instructor comes on and is like, “Life as you know, it’s ended. You’re all going to be Marines and put your heads down.” It’s almost like they don’t want you to see how to get off the Island. Then you arrive at, you know, forming, and you run out to the yellow footprints and boom you’re there. It’s such a small place but at the same time, you’re confused the whole time you’re there. You really don’t understand the layout of the thing until you're about to graduate. Sometimes I think that’s probably by design. I didn’t know where the causeway was off the Island until I graduated. Interviewer: “Because if you visit as a tourist it’s a little bit different because you’re driving up the causeway, you can see all of that. So, what time of day do you arrive?” Almost always at night and we showed up, I think it was, ten o’clock. About ten o’clock at night. Interviewer: “And do they keep you up all night or most––” We were up all night. We hit the yellow footprints, we immediately went into the forming section, waited in a room for about four hours until they got a couple more bus loads there, formed us into platoons, and we immediately started drawing equipment and dragging our seat bags to a forming barracks and at the forming barracks you just basically waited until the entire platoon was together. Took us–– I think–– two days, and once that happened we were turned over to the drill instructors and training began. (8:30). Interviewer: “Now, for people who don’t know, explain the yellow footprints thing.” When you come into Marine boot camp, they immediately want to get you in the idea of forming into platoons and forming into lines, so the second you get off the bus you’re told, “Find a set of yellow footprints and put your feet on those footprints.” Ten seconds after you get off the bus, you’re learning the position of attention and how to stand at attention and how to talk to your drill instructor, how not to talk to your drill instructor. And it’s a pretty intense, very immediate indoctrination. So they don’t waste any time getting you turned into Marines. Interviewer: “And what sort of mix of people did you have with you? Were they all pretty much your age, were there older ones?” �For the most part it was, I’d say that 18 to 22 year old demographic. There are a couple old guys and that’s what you call them, “the old guys.” Each platoon seemed to have one or two guys that were that odd bird that was 27/28 years old. Usually called “Pops” or something like that, but yeah. It was pretty much everybody and when it came to–– you had every ethnicity, every bodytype. You had the big guys, the little guys, I mean you had everything. The only thing you didn’t see there was there was not–– the Marine Corps just doesn’t allow a lot of heavy set people in there. So it’s pretty much a bunch of in-shape, you know, pre-in-shape, young males. Interviewer: “And the first four weeks what do they have you do? Before things got crazy, what happened?” (9:59). The first four weeks is all marching. It’s basically learning how to work as a team. Mainly through close drill, understanding how to field-strip a rifle, cleaning the squad bay, it’s just a lot of marching. I mean that’s just the easiest way to explain it. You march, you march, you march, and that’s what you do that first four weeks. After those four weeks is when you transition into rifle range. You usually do two weeks of rifle range to get your basic qualification down with the M16, then you do like a week of mess and maintenance. Mess and maintenance is they take platoons off the line, out of training, for a week and they do all the things that need to operate the base for the other recruits. We went to weapons company–– actually, we were already there for rifle range and we ran the chow hole for a week. So we were the guys that were the backbone of running the chow hole for an entire week. That was our maintenance. Interviewer: “How long was the whole bootcamp?” It was 12 weeks in all. After mess and maintenance we did–– it was a four week–– they call it basic combat training, and that’s all out. Basically you’re camping the entire time, you’re out in a two-man shelter or fighting holes and it’s your introduction to Marine Corp combat. Interviewer: “Now, did your own military background kind of help you at all, adjust to that bootcamp?” It did and it didn’t. I did three years of high school ROTC and also just growing up around the Military, so from an understanding how the Military did things, to understanding basic combat stuff, I was already there. But, at the same time I had already “led” I guess, a little bit, from ROTC, so I had to erase some of that and go back to just being a straight follower because I got out over my skis, we’ll say a couple times, with drill instructors, trying to be more than I was. So that led to some of that–– but that’s just normal growing pains. I mean different people–– everybody has a different experience at boot camp. (12:08). Interviewer: “And at that point in time, how did they discipline people who got out of line?” �Everybody’s gonna tell you it was like Full Metal Jacket, you know? I can honestly say there were moments that were similar to Full Metal Jacket in my platoon, especially after we knew we were going to war. Not trying to hype it or exaggerate it but there were people that were punched, there were people that were slammed into the stanchions. My drill instructor–– my heavy drill instructor–– you usually have three drill instructors. You have your senior drill instructor, you have your basically everyday drill instructor–– who’s a young, learning drill instructor, and then you have what’s called a heavy [drill instructor]. The heavy is the guy that, he’s just kind of like–– he’s the mean guy and he gets everything done. Our heavy ended up relieved the following platoon and kicked off the drill field for abusing the recruits. Interesting story, he went to be the CG’s driver, they liked him so much, he told the story of why he was thrown off the drill field. The CG reinstated him the following year, he was promoted up the Gunny and I ran into him right before I retired and he was a Master Gunnery Sergeant. So he had found a loophole to get out through the backdoor because they loved him so much. He actually ended up pushing recruits up at Quantico on the officer side of the house, later in his career and retired a Master Gunnery Sergeant out of–– I called him up one day. So I’d heard his name and it’s one of those things, you hear your drill instructor's name, years later it freezes you. One of the guys was talking–– he was Motor T Chief–– and one of the guys who said, “Hey I’m talking to Master Guns–– I was talking to Foshi yesterday.” And I froze. I was a Major and I froze and I said, “Drill instructor Sergeant Foshi?” They said, “Yeah.” He was on the drill field. I said, “Yeah. I know he [was] on the drill field.” And I picked up the phone and I called him, and he said, “Master Gunnery Sergeant Foshi.” I said, “This is recruit Bouganville.” They called me Bouganville because they didn’t like pronouncing Bergeron. And he says, “Bouganville. How are you doing?” I said, “I’m a Major now.” He goes, “Huh, did pretty well for yourself.” So it was rough. I mean boot camp was no joke, especially after there was this idea that we were no longer a peacetime Marine Corp–– we were training for war. (14:36). Interviewer: “Now at this point, 1990, were there any of these drill instructors left who had been to Vietnam or were they all––” No. No, in fact on the entire Island only people I can remember that were in Vietnam were some of the senior officers. You saw some Vietnam campaign ribbons but–– and the Sergeant Major of boot camp was a Vietnam veteran. In my first unit we had a couple of Vietnam veterans, but it was getting to the point where they were Master Gunnery Sergeants or Sergeant Majors. [Those] were the guys left from Vietnam. Interviewer: “As it was we took most of the Marines out of Vietnam earlier than most of the Army unit so there’s––” Yeah. �Interviewer: “–– that pushes the clock back that much further. But at the same time you’ve got–– but you know once Saddam goes into Kuwait now you have this sense of urgency now. So when do you finish your boot camp?” I finished boot camp, a three month process, immediately left. We got I think three days or four days leave and then we had to report for MCT–– Marine Combat Training–– at Geiger. Every Marine goes through basic Marine Combat Training. Basically they take the first four-weeks of the basic infantrymen scores and everybody does it. Then the people that are going to be Infantry, they stick around and I think they do another eight weeks. We go on to whatever our job speciality is gonna be. Interviewer: “So where is Fort Geiger?” Camp Geiger is right next to Camp Lejeune. So it’s attached to that complex on the other side. Interviewer: “Because you’re in North Carolina now?” North Carolina. Interviewer: “So how does that–– the combat training you're getting–– now, how does that differ from what you had at Parris Island?” Parris Island was kind of throw hand grenades, learn how to climb under wire, learn what to do when a flare goes off, that type of stuff. It’s very, very basic stuff. When you got to MCT you were integrated basically like a Marine rifle company is. You had squads. You–– for the first time–– had squad automatic weapons, so you were being formatted with the weapon systems that a standard Marine rifle platoon has. So, one guy had a 203 grenade launcher and when you’re at boot camp everybody’s got an M16 there. You go to the range and you shoot all these other weapons, but they’re not integrated into the unit. Everybody’s carrying an M16, so that was the big shift. You’re also starting to learn the heavy weapons systems, Marine Corps does a really good job of the “every Marine is a rifleman” concept. So it doesn’t matter what you’re going to be, you will know basic infantry information. Are we as good as Infantry? No. But you can always turn to a Marine and say, “Get on the line, dig a fighting hole, and get ready to repel the enemy.” Every Marine can do that, so they do a really good job with it and that’s what MCT was. (17:22). Interview: “So then how long is the MCT?” Four weeks. �Interviewer: “That’s because four weeks there and if you were doing infantry, then if you were Infantry then you’d stay a lot longer. But now you move onto your more specialized training.” Yeah. Exactly. I went out to Norfolk to the Amphibious Embarkation School and that’s where I became a Logistics Embarkation Specialist. It was a four-week school. That school, at the time, was abbreviated by a week because there was a real need in units because we were getting ready to do a major movement to get more of us logistics and embarkation kids out into the units and into the field with existing units. Interviewer: “So what do logistics and embarkation people do?” Logistics guys do everything. You’re kind of a jack-of-all-trades. You’re in charge of organizing–– from the organizational side–– all of the movements. You’re in charge of–– everything kind of falls under you that doesn’t fall under a combat role. So we could say, “Beans, bullets, and band-aids.” If it fits in one of those categories, it falls under logistics. You’re in charge of doing those things and doing the movement piece of it. So, chow halls, medical, all that stuff falls underneath logistics. Interviewer: “So what did you do actually? Three weeks of training––” We did four. We did four weeks but it was supposed to be five, but we did four. Everything that we did in school, is not that. All the logistics stuff you’re gonna learn is kind of OJT once you get out of there. The things they taught us were the specialized movement piece. How do you interface with the air force and load an airplane? How do you load a train? How do you load flatbed trucks? How do you plan the loading of ships? We learn basic trim, stress, and stability. You know, we’ve got to put the tanks on the bottom and got that type of stuff. You’re gonna spread load the decks and with airplanes you learned how to load aircraft so that you had a center of balance. So there was a lot of–– I wouldn’t say advanced math but a lot of heavy math. Basically, trying to figure out moments in an airplane so that based on the weight of all the equipment the airplane is balanced as it takes off, that type of stuff. (19:21). Interviewer: “They’re sort of orienting you so that when you join a unit, you’re coming in at the bottom and they pretty much show you what to do.” Yeah. They’re giving you all of the base skills that the unit is not going to have time to teach you, that are also skills that have to be formalized. The Air Force piece of it–– there’s a requirement before you’re allowed to do Air Force load plans, where you’re certified to do them. And we were actually–– we received our certification there at the school that–– we were �certified, signed a load plan–– that, yes, this is a legal load plan to give the Air Force to load the airplane, that type of stuff. Interviewer: “So when do you finish that?” Finished that in December–– it was mid-December. When we were done, they gave us–– I think–– two days to get everything together there at Norfolk before they sent us directly to our unit, so we didn’t give any leave there. I was sent to H&S Battalion Second for Service Support Group at Camp Lejeune and that was another–– [I] show up at my unit and showed up with four guys that had been–– two of ‘em had been in my platoon at boot camp, two others were at the same time at boot camp. We all went through school at the same time and when we all showed up there they looked at the four of us and said, “Go to supply, draw everything you need, you’re gonna get four days of leave, get your butt back here because we leave on the 31st of December for Saudi Arabia.” So, it was kind of like–– it was like whiplash shock. I mean, none of us expected that a bunch of, you know, brand new Marines coming to the fleet–– we we’re like, “Okay, yeah. We’re going to go to some unit, we’re gonna wait around for a while, they’ll all be gone when we get there or they’ll be getting ready to go out the door and they won’t take us.” But no it was, “Welcome to the show.” (21:08). Interviewer: “Let’s start the show. December 31st––” December 31st went to the airfield in Cherry Point, got on a civilian airliner and flew for 16 hours to an airport right next to Jebel Ali, Saudi Arabia. Landed there, got there–– we got into our tent on New Year’s Eve or–– no–– New Year’s Day now. Within 48 hours we were in the port starting to download ships that had been sent months earlier. So that first whole four weeks was getting everything, organizing all the equipment, getting it ready to push forward, figuring out where we were going forward, and honestly, being just thrown directly into the fire as a logistics guy, you know. Immediately executing everything you’d learn in school and trying to learn on the fly and we had good Sergeants, we had good NCOs, but we were used as what we were capable of doing. So a lot of standing around with a clipboard counting… counting humvees or going down into the ships and when we–– when you send gear over in civilian ships that aren’t designed for military gear, you do a lot of blocking and bracing which is basically two-by-fours and four-by-fours everywhere to stabilize the deck so when you pull into port all that stuff has to be ripped out. And it’s just one big working party–– guys swinging sledge hammers and tearing mountains and mountains of wood out to free up all of the stuff to get out of the ships. Interviewer: “So do you take your turn with the manual labor?” �Yeah. That was basically eight hours of manual labor, or four hours of working on the port doing other stuff and then repeat that each day. So usually a 12-hour day is what–– Interviewer: “Now what were the physical weather conditions like at that point in time?” Beauty of being in the desert in December is that it wasn't that bad. During the day we were getting up into the 80s but during the evening it was nice and cool, and a lot of guys preferred to be on the night shift because it was just a really nice working condition. You weren’t dealing with the Sun, it was really buggy there–– which was really strange, you know. You get to Saudi Arabia, you’re expecting just desert and you don’t understand that parts of of the world that you’ve always thought of–– you know you get this Omar Sharif view of what Saudi Arabia is, and then you get to a coastal area in Saudi Arabia and realize this is kind of a swamp, it kind of stinks, and it’s full of mosquitoes and bugs. So that was an awakening but it wasn’t bad. I mean it’s–– we’re getting three square meals a day, got a place to sleep, got guys with you that you’ve been with since boot camp, but there was that apprehension of what the heck’s gonna happen. What are we going to do? And I think at that point when you’re at the low rungs of the Marine Corps, you have no idea what’s coming down the pipe. You’re just kind of doing what you were told to do, so it was interesting too. (24:06). Interviewer: “Were there kind of rumors about what the Marines were going to do? Were you going to go land some place?” There were rumors that we were going to get back on ship and we were all kind of confused by that. Why would they–– why did we bring everything here to get back on a ship? You always get that the corporals running around that are in the know, you know, “We’re doing this, we’re doing that.” We were told we were doing everything from invading Iraq and going straight to Baghdad, we were going to be the lead force going into Kuwait City, you name it. I think I heard every rumor that you could hear and you didn’t know what to believe, and quite honestly I don’t think anybody probably below the rank of captain knew what was coming down the pipe. Everything was pretty close hold at that point. What we knew was, you’d know when you got there–– that was kind of the feel. We were going to push north and we were going to go into cantonment sites right along the border, and that was the process that first couple of weeks in there–– and that’s what we did. We–– after–– we got everything off the ship, we started pushing gear north. The main MSR from Jubal Ali went up to a place known as Mashab and then from Mashab you push out into the desert and there was DSC [something], and what we were doing was working our supplies. Now that I’ve seen the postmortem–– you know–– what happened, years later, being able to study and understand finally exactly what we were doing. It was a huge logistics push, we worked for General Krulak when he was a one-star, he was in charge of us. Ended up becoming a commandant years later, but we were doing a huge logistical push that had not been done–– it was a style of warfare that we hadn’t seen before where we were gonna push the logistics �basically up to the front line, because we weren’t worried about them coming across that front line. That way when the Infantry and the Amor moved forward we would be that much closer with the fighting support that they were going to need for that initial push that was going to go. And I think that’s when we figured out that we were going to be the guys that went into Northern Kuwait and Southern Iraq is basically where the push was for the Marine Corps. The Army moved farther out west and swept into more of Central Iraq during the fighting. (26:28). Interviewer: “Now one thing–– what was the infrastructure like? Did you have functional roads or did you have to build roads?” No that–– well the road going to Mashab was a functional road. It was a highway that went upnorth but as soon as you punched west it was a road that we were basically in the process of building., which is another thing that made it really interesting. We were doing–– a lot of the convoy operations that were being done were being done with civilian tractor trailers and with foreign labor. So I know me, personally, the night the air war started I was–– I remember being in the bunker and the next morning I was leaving and taking my own convoy. So here’s a PFC being given three trucks, three guys that don’t speak English, told “Drive north to get to this spot, and then when you get there you’re going to go west until you see ‘this.’” Honestly, that was the way it was there. There was so much gear being pushed forward that the manpower that you were able to assign to it was shoestring. I mean a 19-year-old kid in a truck, three guys who don't speak English, and saying, “Drive north.” That’s honestly what they were doing. So the night the air war started we were all in the bunkers because they’d fire a couple scuds. We all got in the bunker, turned on the radio, and listened to George Bush’s–– the President’s–– speech about how the air war had begun. The next morning I got into my truck, went north, and I can still remember we got all the way north we started–– I found–– we found the turn. There were actually Marines there that we’re guiding you go that way, so kind of pushed out into the desert and then one of my trucks went off the road about ten miles down the road and got stuck in the sand. So it was kind of like, “Okay.” There were flares going off out in the distance–– didn’t know what that was, 19-year-old kid, I have nobody I can talk to. So it was kind of like, “Okay, we’re just going to sit tight until the morning until somebody else comes by, flag somebody down, and we’ll get towed up the road.” (28:27). Interviewer: “So you had no radio yourself?” No. No radio. No, the neat thing–– not neat thing, the bad thing–– that worked out too is I had been assigned two Pakistani drivers and an Indian. And they were not big fans of each other–– they wouldn’t even eat together. The Pakistani guys kept giving the Indian guy a hard time and it got to a point where I was basically trying to just calm them down, because it was the Indian guy that [had] driven off the road so there was this just national tension between them. It was just a bad thing. Finally got everything calmed down and next morning I noticed that there was a small �DSC, a small camp, that was pretty close to us, pretty close in the deserts. Not real close, but I realized that after I started walking, but I walked about three-and-a-half miles to a small medical outfit that was out there and they got me into a humvee, drove me all the way down to where my unit was which was another 40 kilometers down the road. I was able to get a wrecker to come back and get my truck towed out and get [it] up the road to the DSC. You just don’t think of things like that, but that’s what would happen with a 19-year-old kid. Interviewer: “So basically they–– you weren’t even missed?” No. But I think it was because we had so much going on, that it was like, “Okay.” You can’t get lost, you might get stuck, but you can’t get lost. It’s–– there’s only two roads, so eventually you will get there, we will find you, and we will come along and recover. (30:03). Interviewer: “Now you had mentioned, or you talked about scuds, and those were ground to ground missiles that the Iraqis were launching at us and they were doing that before the start of the air war?” So they did it as soon as the air war began. So that night, as soon as we started attacking them, they started lobbying scuds. So we didn’t–– we heard a Patriot go off from the area we were in, I didn’t see anything but we could hear that something had launched. Interviewer: “Yeah and the Patriot's the American anti-missile system.” Yeah. Interviewer: “A lot of that was famous at the time in the news coverage but if you didn’t watch it or were too young, you wouldn’t know. So that’s all going but most of that–– most of those guys were kind of firing at major bases and larger targets and so once you’re kind of out towards the desert someplace–– not your problem?” No. Interviewer: “So you get your convoy out to join the unit, now do you bring more convoys or––” No. It was kind of like a one-way thing. You were going to where you were going, so you each were assigned to bring a piece of it up there. There were units–– my unit wasn’t–– my unit was kind of like we were the headquarters unit. So we were supposed to get where we were going. The motor transport units, those units, they were kept shuttling back to bring stuff up. �Interviewer: “So once you were out there, how long did you sit there?” About a month before the grand rush started. So we were out there in the desert for about a month. We had been there in time, kind of, don’t remember exactly when–– it all kind of bleeds together–– but we did have the–– there was one time where the Iraqis launched a small thrust into the Mashab area which was pretty close to us. We were close enough to see the flares going up from the units that night. We were all thrown in our fighting holes, told that we were gonna get gassed so everybody was putting their gas masks on. We were a support unit so our fighting holes were terrible. They were all about two-and-a-half feet deep and we never thought we were going to have to use them, so that was interesting. I can still remember we were sitting in the fighting hole–– it was me, and PFC Carney–– he was one of my friends from boot camp–– and General Krulak and a sergeant major went walking fighting hole, to fighting hole in the perimeter and he says, “Well we heard there’s enemies,” telling all of us what was going on and he got to us and he said, “We’ve been told some tanks have broken through.” The Army Tiger Brigade was working behind us out west at the time, they ended up moving that unit out in front of us so that we were never in any danger. I remember Carney looking and saying, “Yes sir. What am I supposed to do to a tank with this?” And the General says, “Don’t worry about it. We’re going to figure it out before they get here.” So that was pretty interesting. It was one of those funny moments in a war where a PFC says something that’s–– in hindsight–– that’s really, really funny. (32:56). Interviewer: “Now, Krulak–– I mean there was a Krulak who was high-ranking in the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War.” Major Krulak was his father. Yeah. We had Chuck Krulak and Chuck Krulak is a really interesting dude. He’s one of those guys that knows everybody underneath his command down to the smallest guy and remembers your name. He was really able to really interface with all the way down to the young Marine level, probably the reason he made it all the way to commandant in the Marine Corps. Yeah, he was a stellar guy, but he had his quirks too. Krulak was about as tall as I am, so he was one of those Marine generals that was–– you know–– right at the fivefive/five-six height, and he would have a platform built wherever he was. Even out in the desert, he has his office in a conex box and he actually had a platform that his desk was set up on, so that when he stood up he was as tall as–– taller than–– everybody in the room. We all said that he had a Napoleon Complex. But he was a really, really good officer. Interviewer: “Now aside from that one little bit of excitement, how did you spend your time sitting out there in the desert?” (34:03). I mean day-to-day operations was organizing all of the things that were coming up and down the MSR. So supporting the G Units–– the General Shop Units–– we were just below the general’s �headquarters, and what our job was basically was to take care of the general’s headquarters. So anything the general’s headquarters needed we were the ones that supplied them with it. From supplies to movement, all of the motor transport assets that they needed–– that type of stuff. We ran the channel haul, everything there on the DSC. So we were basically the housekeeping agency for the facility that the general staff was using. Interviewer: “Now, did you have problems keeping dust out things or were––” Oh yeah. Dust was everywhere. In fact, it wasn’t just the dust. We had been up there about a week-and-a-half and we got one of the worst torrential rain storms that the area had seen, even the weather guys were like, “This just doesn’t happen, this is like biblical.” What we had done is we had–– because of the worry about artillery and not having concrete to build concrete barriers– – everything was in pits. So we would dig these huge pits with dozers and we’d put everything at the bottom of the pit. Well when you dig pits in the desert and you get a torrential rainstorm–– I can still remember waking up morning, we’re hearing the rain, but waking up and opening your eyes and seeing your shower-shoe–– your flip-flop–– float by and realizing that there’s a foot of water in the tent. That type of stuff, so we lost–– I can’t tell you how many computers, what that did to the electrical grid because we had wires that were just open wires that were running everywhere. It was chaos for about a week just trying to put things together after the rainstorm. The mud was worse than the dust. Interviewer: “Now eventually, the fighting actually starts. The Americans launched their attack, so what happens with your unit at that point?” (36:01). At that point–– that was interesting too because we were close enough to the frontlines that we could hear the carpet bombing that was taking place on the frontline. It was every night for several days before the big attack started, and when they went through–– on the breach line–– they dropped a 10,000 pound fuel air-vapor bomb right before they pushed through and that was something else. We knew–– we had actually gotten word that that night they were gonna drop the big bomb. It’s–– the fuel air-vapor bombs are really good at basically destroying things that are dug in, so it blows up your mines, it blows up your barbed wire, and they dropped one of those right on the breach line. And once everyone pushed forward, we started punching convoys right behind them, supporting those units. So basically running ammunition, running all those types of supplies that they needed to go up there. The farthest my unit ever got was, was just right there at that breach line, but we were constantly sending convoys into the breach and following the combat units that were pushing forward. All the way up–– I took several convoys up to the Northern area of Kuwait and one convoy into Kuwait City. Interviewer: “Now, as you’re doing this are you still using these civilian trucks or use––” �No. By that point we were using all military equipment, so we weren’t–– all our, the same trucks are basically just to get us there in the desert quickly, but from that point it was–– all our maneuvering was done with military assets. So mainly LBS is logistical vehicle systems–– look like big heads–– so we still use them today, really good trucks. Five tons, that type of stuff. Interviewer: “What do you remember about going into Kuwait?” I still remember–– I think the thing you can’t forget is the oil fires. There’s really something crazy about being in the Sun in the desert and then hitting that line of smoke and having everything go to what it’s like to be outside at midnight, within a matter of minutes when you get underneath it. And the sound, the roaring sound the burning wells make is just something that's really fascinating. I’ve got some really good pictures of all of us sitting on the back of the truck with the oil fires behind us before we punched into it. It was–– it was fascinating Now Kuwait City, that was a real experience. So getting in there, seeing a city for the first time–– that was a major metropolitan city–– before the war started and seeing it completely just tumbleweed kind of. It was like an apocalyptic–– there was nothing going on. A couple fires burning here and there, very few people in the streets. We were running our convoys up to a unit that was right on the outskirts. We actually had–– the Kuwaiti Army took Kuwait City, the Marines didn’t, but we were directly supporting the Kuwaiti troops that were taking Kuwait City. We did get into the City some, supplying them and supplying our troops that were on the outside. And we actually had an afternoon after we pushed up there, and because everything had happened so fast, the City wasn’t–– there weren’t people. There weren’t security checkpoints everywhere yet, it had just fallen and we had an old man that came out and invited us in for tea. [He] introduced us to his family and I’ve got pictures where we actually sat down with this Kuwaiti family and they brought everything they could to us. There were American flags everywhere, they were so happy to see us, they wanted to feed us, they wanted to give us tea, introduce us to all of his sons, you know. And his daughter was there, and I still remember that he was talking about how they had kept her hidden the entire time because they were worried the Iraqis would get their hands on her. So that was neat. I’ve got a picture of her with the hat on and she’s holding the rifle and she’s got one of the guys flak jacket on, and got some just really cool keepsakes from them. (40:04). Interviewer: “Did you see anything of the Kuwaiti Army?” Just them walking. They had pushed to the northern side of the city, we were kind of in the southern side of the city at that point. The fighting was over by that point, it was over and I think 48 hours in Kuwait City and that was about it. That was as far as I got in and then within three weeks we were already starting to move stuff back. Interviewer: “Because there’s already a cease fire pretty quickly” �Yes, yeah. I mean once the Iraqi Army tried to push itself out of Kuwait City and the air power hit it and that was the end of the Iraqi Army. That was the end of the offensive, they were done from a military perspective. Interviewer: “So then you basically–– so you went into Kuwait City and when you go back out to your base camp again from there and then you just kind of sit there?” Sit there for a couple weeks while they figure out how they’re going to phase everybody out–– who is going to get phased out. So we were there for a couple more months and I think we left in May–– basically the reverse of everything we had done. We went down to Kuwait, checked all of our equipment in and put it in big lots, got everything packed up, went through the whole agricultural process of washing everything and then started back loading everything on ships. Then, once all of the majority of our unit was loaded onto the ship, it was kind of like just waiting in the queue for a flight back home. Interviewer: “Now, when you went home did you do another non-stop or did you––” So, yeah. We did non-stop–– well, no. We popped into one place for fuel but it was literally a pop-in for fuel and got off the airplane, and then right back on. I think we stopped in Ireland so– – which was nice. I do remember getting a beer. First beer we had had in a long time. Interviewer: “Now you’re back in the States, where do you go from there?” I was with that unit for another seven/eight months, then they put me with a brigade service support group for which was going to do a Norway operation. So I went through cold weather training up at Fort McCoy, Wisconsin. Learned how to walk around on skis and snow shoes and haul sleds and basic infantry stuff in mountain warfare. Did that for about a month, then we went to Norway. Did Teamwork ‘92 with the Norwegians and the Brits, which was fascinating being above the Arctic Circle. I mean one year you’re in Saudi Arabia, the next year you’re training and above the Arctic Circle in Northern Norway. [I] did that operation for about a month and I was really fortunate in that because I was a logistics embarkation guy. Everybody else had to go back on the Navy ships, I got to go back on a civilian roll-on/roll-off freighter and actually drive through the Fjords and come on the RORO ship which was–– it was good living, so it was a civilian ship. Life was good. And it was just beautiful to sail through the Fjords. (42:56). Interviewer: “And what time of year were you in Norway?” We were in Norway in February/March. Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s still pretty dark a lot of the time but there is light by there?” �Yeah there is some light. Interviewer: “Were you near a town or anything?” Bardufoss, Tromsø, and Bodø were the three towns we operated out of. Interviewer: “Kind of–– sort of in a very far North Atlantic coast of Norway up there.” Yep. Interviewer: “And was that an area with–– did you have–– was the water warm enough that it was open or was it––” Yeah, it was. The Fjords, because of the salt water, they don’t ice as much and the Fjords are so deep that I think it stabilizes the temperature some. But yeah, it was free sailing for everything. We actually did amphibious assault above the Arctic Circle in March. So, when we actually–– you know–– LCU’s whole nine yards, just like Marines do but doing it in Norway. Interviewer: “And what impression did you have of the NATO troops you were with?” Really good people, the Norwegians especially. Norwegians are one of the most proficient, welltrained armies I’ve ever worked with, especially when it comes to mountain warfare. They’re just awesome at what they do. We were playing OP four–– we were the good guys, they were playing the aggressors. I can still remember us just getting set up and having–– they used little snowcats basically, like a snow machine painted white and they came pouring out of the tree line on snowcat. Shooting us up with blanks so it was–– they were really good at what they did. And it was an interesting military to work with too because at the time they had females integrated in their infantry units, but their platoons would be an all-female platoon and an all-male platoon. So that was interesting being around female infantry because it was something that wasn’t even an idea at that time, in the Marine Corps. The Brits were always great. I’ve been fortunate enough to work with the UK many times in my career and they’re really professional soldiers. (44:59). Interviewer: “Then you get back again and–– we made it into 1992 at this point you’re there–– from there where do you go?” I left there–– it was time for me to rotate out–– so I left my first unit and I went right across the New River there from Camp Lejeune, basically across the street, [to] New River Air Station. I became the embarkation NCO for 263, which is a CH-46 echos water, sea nights–– which is what the Osprey replaced and [it’s] a great unit for a young guy to be in. I’m a really good swimmer, always have been, so immediately upon getting there the CO of the unit came in and �said, “Welcome to the unit. Can you swim?” I said, “Yeah, I can swim.” He goes, “Get to the pool tomorrow because we’re gonna make an aircrewman.” I was like, “What do you mean?” He was like, “You’re gonna fly on a helicopter.” So you know, shoot machine guns and I was like, “Yes, sign me up. Yay, flight pay.” Even though I had my job that I was doing for the unit in logistics, I was able to get trained up, become an observer and a gunner on the 46th. By the time I was done–– several hundred hours–– had over a hundred hours on MDGs, so flying at night and then did two deployments with that unit as a logistics guy and then my secondary job being an observer/gunner. (46:26). Interviewer: “Now the CH-46, that’s an old model helicopter. They used those in Vietnam, right?” In fact, we had helicopters in our unit that we were able to track the history back to Vietnam. Then we had planes that still had bullet patches in them, from Vietnam. So yes, they were very, very old airplanes. The running joke on just about any Marine helicopters [was] if it isn’t leaking, get off because something’s wrong, it has run dry. It was–– in fact, I got one chance in my career to go to HMX-1, which is the helicopter unit for the President because I had a friend up there and actually walked through their line and [saw] some of their helicopters. And just looking at the press versions of the 46s that were flying, it was a night and day difference. I mean ours–– everything was exposed on the inside of the skeleton of a 46 that was actually in the fleet, so every wire you could see. You went on the press versions and they have these nice white covers over everything and it was totally different, but yeah it’s a fascinating airplane–– very old airplane. Interviewer: “And you talk about–– you had two deployments, talk about those.” First deployment was in Somalia. We went out on the USS Wasp, went down, got to do a crossing the line ceremony and become a Shellback so that was really cool–– with the Navy. Interviewer: “So the Wasp is an aircraft carrier?” Yeah. It’s an LHD which is a miniature amphibious aircraft carrier. It has a well deck so they can do landing ships and has an air complement on top of it. Interviewer: “Okay, so was the air complement helicopters?” Yes, helicopters. We had four heavy-lift helicopters–– the 53s. 12 of us, which were troop movers, and then we had three Huey’s and I think four Cobras. Then we also had six Harriers on the back of the.. 6 jump jets. (48:10). Interviewer: “So that’s a jet–– the regular aircraft, but it makes a vertical takeoff.” �So they take off forward on that platform because if you take off forward, you can carry a lot more ordnance up there. You burn a lot less fuel but they do come back and recover vertically, so there’s no need for arresting wires. Interviewer: “So you have a fairly substantial flight tech but it’s not as long as on a fleet.” No, I think they’re 250 feet shorter than I think it’s 840 feet, roughly the size of a World War II battleship–– I mean not a battleship but a World War II aircraft carrier, Essex class. Interviewer: “So that’s a pretty good size––” It is a good size. Interviewer: “And what were you doing in Somalia?” This was when Somalia was going through its civil war period. We were the second Marine force that had been there. We had relieved the West Coast guys that went in there first. Lowintensity type stuff, making sure the Embassy was taken care of, getting stuff in and out of the Embassy. Most of our runs were in and out of the Embassy compound. We had reconnaissance elements when we were first starting to look for Farrah Aidid and try to bring him in. I remember there was movement afoot. I remember the MEU commander said that we want to get a deed and put him in our brig, so that was kind of the mindset we had when we were down there, was that we were gonna take some of these bad elements out of the country. We never did it. We also did a lot of training with foreign troops there. The Dutch rank were in Kismayo--we would go down and train with the Dutch, just integrate them with our helicopters, us with their Infantry. We also used Kismayo–– the southern airfield–– so our pilots could do a lot of training. It was a controlled airfield so we were able to go in there at night and do night-flight operations–– that type of stuff. It was really, really low intensity stuff. Couple bullet holes in a couple airplanes during the entire tour so nobody was ever injured. No, it was kind of funny. You’d go out and fly in Mogadishu and just be flying the night pattern, just getting pilot hours and as your planes would go towards the shoreline you would come back [and] you’d see tracers come out from the coast and just go in the water. They were shooting at the lights but we were so far out to sea that there was–– it couldn’t hit us. But–– just not like they understand trajectories or anything like that. (50:28). Interviewer: “Now, did you have any dealings with any of the Somalis yourself or were you always––” �I got into Mogadishu a couple times but not–– no. In my capacity being with the Air Wing, there was no integration. We had some infantry troops that were in there that were holding the port facility and reinforcing the Embassy–– those guys did a lot more of that type stuff but we didn’t. We were supporting getting them in-and-out mainly. Interviewer: “How long did you spend there?” We did two-and-a-half months there and then it was decided that we were going to go up and do a major operation in Kuwait–– just a training operation [to] show force. We got up there, we started our offload. I think we got about a day into our offload and that was when the Pakistani nationals who were working in Somalia were ambushed the first time. They lost–– I want to say– – they had 30 or 40 killed in an ambush in Mogadishu. We did an emergency backload immediately and went, basically, back down to put a stability [like] presence in that area again with the Marines. We stayed down there about another month-and-a-half and then we were relieved by the Army units that came in. Interviewer: “Now, do you go home from there or––” We went home. We stopped at a port call in the Mediterranean on the way out, to just kind of unwind and then we straight back to Camp Lejeune. So we’re there for about a year-and-a-half and it was basically repeated back on the Kearsarge this time, which is just a different name, same class as the Wasp. We went straight to the Adriatic–– that was when Bosnia was first kicking off–– and we basically poured it in the Adriatic and spent almost the entire deployment in the Adriatic. The only thing our unit really did there was–– we had Captain O’Grady from the American F-16 Pilot that was shot down. We were the squadron that went in and grabbed him in the evening. (52:23). Interviewer: “What do you remember about that incident or how much of that did you know at that time.” I was actually working the flight deck at the time, so the 53s–– it was their mission, they have much longer legs than the 46 do. They were the guys that were gonna go in. They went in, did everything, we had 46 waiting in case something happened to them basically as a recovery force for the recovery force. We always planned in depth and secondary plans, but of course none of that was needed. I remember him getting to the fight flight deck and I can remember he was pretty beat up when he got to us. He was with us for about–– it was like 24 hours before they flew him off and took him back to Aviano. It was the big–– you know, you always trained to do all these things. I mean one of the major operations for MEU is what we called TRAP: Tactical Recovery of Aircraft and Pilots. So you train this stuff all the time, it was neat to get to see it get �executed and see it executed at that level with that level of success for one of our down aviators. So it was a big feather in the cap for the unit. Interviewer: “Now when you’re back home–– when you’re in the States and you’re in the Camp Lejeune complex, what’s life like there for enlisted Marines?” It’s really good. I mean, by that point–– Jacksonville is a huge town. You’re close enough to Wilmington that you’ve got a little more of a laid-back, non-military town that’s really easy to get to. It’s a great place–– beaches are everywhere, the beaches are beautiful. So, really enjoyed it. (54:04). Interviewer: “Did you live on-base or off-base?” I lived on-base then. I didn’t get married until I got down to–– till I met my wife on the Bonhomme Richard years later. So, I was in the barracks most of the time. Interviewer: “Did you have a car at that point?” Oh, yeah. Driving back home to Georgia pretty regularly and that type of stuff. It was pretty laid back, it was just normal military life. Being in the Air Wing was a lot easier than being in an infantry unit, you know. We aviators–– they–– really stick to this many hours of work, this many hours of rest because of crew rest and because I was a crewman, that was another good benefit of being a crewman, you know. I was expected to get an eight-hours sleep at night and it was that kind of stuff, so it was a good life. Interviewer: “Now how do you–– when you were on these deployments–– how much of your time were you spending as a crewman as opposed to doing logistics?” It was about 50/50. It was–– not everybody in the unit could be crewmen because of the swimming requirement. Getting through the swimming requirement, especially back then, was really tough and a lot of guys wanted to be crewmen but they just couldn’t swim. By becoming a crewman you were, kind of, set a part in a way. You weren’t expected to do as much of the other work. You were–– you had kind of an elevated status, so that was a good thing too. I still did everything I could in the unit and I was still integrated in the unit, but it was different when you were a person who was a crewman and had a day-job. That’s what we kind of called it, “My day job is… but I’m a crewman.” Probably about 50/50 workload wise. Interviewer: “So what rank were you at at this point?” Sergeant by that point. I had picked up Sergeant shortly after getting to 263. �Interviewer: “Okay, and so now when does this assignment come to an end?” Right after that second deployment. I was back home about two months and I was sent to Beaufort Air Station to join the Marine Wing Support Squadron 273, which is a groundside unit. But when I got there the monitor had messed up. They already had two sergeants there, so my boss said, “Don’t unpack your stuff. You’re moving somewhere else.” He called around and there was a unit that was getting ready to deploy to Aviano. There was a F-18 squadron and they were really interested in having me, so they transferred me over. I went right back to an active squadron and started getting ready to do an Aviano deployment with them. So to Aviano, Italy right back to the Bosnia AOR. (56:47). Interviewer: “Now you’re with F-18s?” Yeah, but I got my aircrew wings but I’m not flying. I did a little bit of flying while I was at Beaufort with the search-and-rescue unit that was down there because it was 46s and I came and I was already qualified, but that–– back to my regular logistics job. Interviewer: “So what was life at Aviano like?” The most beautiful freaking deployment that I did probably in my entire career. The pilots went out and flew in Bosnia. We went and skied at Corcovado everyday. It was good living. Because Aviano, being where it’s located, the Air Force didn’t want to rotate units through for the length of time that they really needed to be there. They considered it “austere conditions.” We had tents that had cement floors, that had air conditioners, that I mean–– sergeants–– we were living four to a GP tent, which is a pretty large tent. We basically had our own room, we had regular barracks furniture, we were getting hazardous duty pay because that AOR was hazardous duty at the time. We were in Italy but it was heavy duty, go figure. So life was good, life was really good. We weren’t in any danger of anything so we were basically just supporting the pilots that were there–– keeping our side of the airfield running. Life was awesome. Interviewer: “How long did you stay there?” Full six months. I would have gladly stayed longer. (58:12). Interviewer: “But now you also at some point get to Tunisia? Another deployment?” That was during that deployment. We went down to Tunisia for a month-and-a-half for a training exercise with the Tunisian Air Force. It’s a bilateral exercise that was done pretty regularly at the time–– not done anymore because we don’t have the same relationship with the Tunsian government we used to, but basically we would go down and fly up for them to help train their �pilots. So, we would come down and fly as aggressors and just a joint training operation. I loved it because it was a very small detachment out of the unit that went down–– we only took four aircraft. Once we got in there the Tunsians provided us with everything, so it wasn’t a whole lot to do once we were set up. Basically, let the pilots fly–– kind of like Aviano was–– but for me being a World War II buff, we were able to get in the car, drive down to Kasserine Pass, explore battlefields down there, see some of the World War II sites that most people don’t get to see there in Northern Africa. And there’s lots of Roman ruins all over Northern Africa–– in fact, I’d say some of the better preserved Roman ruins are there in Africa. It was a good history tour for me–– I got to see some fascinating stuff. Interviewer: “From there you go back to your––” From there I went back to Aviano and went back to the States. [I] was there for about three or four months, and that was when I got selected to Staff Sergeant. Because I was selected to Staff Sergeant, they were gonna move me and I’d gotten orders–– I wanted to go on embassy duty because I was single and you have to do basically another kind of tour when you’re at that rank level. You’d have to be a drill instructor, a recruiter, or go to embassy duty. I really wanted to go to embassy duty. I loved to travel, had been overseas as a kid so that’s what I wanted to do. [I] got sent orders to go to the Embassy duty staff at Quantico–– which is not embassy duty. That is sitting at Quantico and manning a desk for three years, and it was kind of a dead-end job for my MOS. So I pulled some strings, called some senior guys that I knew and said, “Look they’re shafting me. What can we do?” One of the Colonels–– I’d graduated under for the staff sergeant course for embarkation that I’d gone to that year–– I called him and he says, “Would you like to go sea duty?” I said, “I’ll take sea duty in a heartbeat over going to [Quantico].” So I went–– they assigned me to the Bonhomme Richard, which was another LHD that was being built in Pascagoula, Mississippi. And I was the first Marine that was sent down there in the detachment. So [I] went down to get the ship ready. Met my wife down there and just had a really good tour. We got the ship built, took the ship all the way around through the Straits of Magellan and back up San Diego. We got to port in Chile, we got to port in Brazil, and while we were going around Chile was when I was notified I was selected for Warrant Officer. It was kind of bittersweet because I really wanted to be a Warrant Officer because there’s a lot of privilege that comes with it, but it was kind of like I’m not gonna get to go to the Pacific for deployment–– because that was the whole reason I really wanted to go that ship is I’d been in the Marine Corps now for seven years and I was one of the Marines who’d been to Okinawa, still had not been to Korea, still had not been to all those famous Marine Corps places–– but that just wasn’t in the cards. (1:01:39). Interviewer: “Now explain the Warrant Officer business. First of all, what is a Warrant Officer?” �In my specific MOS–– in the logistics and embarkation MOS–– fields in the Marine Corps that require a speciality level of expertise that people consider on par with higher education, I guess is the best way to explain it. They want to pull people from the enlisted side out of those and make them officers–– give them the authority that officers have and that’s what the Warrant Officer program is. You take an enlisted man, you say, “We’re gonna put this bar on you because of your level of technical expertise,” but the one thing about that–– when you do that–– that’s what you’re going to be for the rest of your career. Kind of restricted to that one job speciality, but you really get all of the advanced training, [and] then comes with that is responsibility. It’s a really small fraternity within the Marine Corps. It’s smaller as you go up, but it’s a really unique group. They call us “Mustangs” because you’re prior enlisted–– there’s a level of respect that you get from the enlisted guys because you’re an officer but [also] because you come from where they come from–– that’s just different from the regular officer corps. It’s a great job, I mean you are now integrated in a staff at the officer level and it’s pretty amazing that overnight you go from being an enlisted guy [who’s] asking permission to do things to being on a staff, making decisions for other people to do things. So, that’s a pretty eye-opening–– that transition is really interesting for a lot of people. (1:03:12). Interviewer: “A side issue you mentioned, that you had met your wife when you were training for this crew and she was a sailor. So she had a lower rank than yours––” Nope, same rank. Well, she was one lower but [it] didn’t really matter. Interviewer: “Basically, were there rules about who could fraternize with whom?” In the Navy ship, back then, the rule was because E6s–– even though I was an E6 and she was an E5–– because E6s in the Navy are considered “non-chiefs,” below that rank. Because I was another service, even though I was on the same command, nobody cared. So as long as we weren’t messing around on the boat, doing things we weren’t supposed to do, that kind of stuff, nobody cared. And Christina was at the end of her tour anyway, so she actually ended up getting out of the Navy two weeks before I became a Warrant Officer, and we ran off to Vegas and got married right after she got out. She actually came back on the boat and pinned my bars on me as my wife, which was interesting. Interviewer: “So now you’re a Warrant Officer, do you get pulled off the Bonhomme Richard now and you’ve got to go to Warrant Officer school––” Got pulled off, sent to Quantico to go to Warrant Officer basic course–– which is a three-month course. It’s basically the three months of the six months course that the Lieutenants do. We don’t need to do the entire course, because they’re teaching Lieutenants about the Marine Corps–– we already know that stuff–– so everything we would already know as Marines, they basically take �all that out, but all of the officer stuff that we don’t know yet, we just get that portion of that. Just like boot camp and MCT turns you into a basic rifleman, the basic course at Quantico is supposed to turn you basically into a basic infantry platoon commander. So you’re supposed to be able to fight a Marine Corps platoon, so you’re right back to doing combat stuff and the majority of what you do is basic combat stuff. (1:05:05). Interviewer: “So how old were you at this point?” I was 27. Interviewer: “You were in good enough shape to do what they wanted you to do?” It was a transition, because that is the one thing when you start getting into the staff NCO ranks in the Marine Corps–– not all of us, especially me being an Air Wing so much. I wasn’t as fit as I probably should have been. That was probably the biggest hurdle for me when I got to the basic school, getting back into that level of shape. But, it comes pretty quick when you’ve got that peer pressure on you, you just grin and bear it and get back to it. Interviewer: “Then once you complete the training, now what do you do?” Went to my first unit as a W1. I went to Marine Wing Support Squadron 272 at New River to be the embarkation officer there. Interesting time also for the Marine Corps–– we were starting to put jets into Taszár, Hungary to support Bosnia operations. When I got to my first unit, that is what I was basically tasked with; getting units within my group deployed into Hungary. Didn’t get to go to Hungary–– really wanted too–– just wasn’t in the cards. But, that’s what I did for the entire time I was there. That was a pretty–– that tour was interesting. We went and did an operation in Turkey, got to do operations in Honduras and Nicaragua but they were all small stuff–– building schools, partnership operations. Interviewer: “Now, did you get to go on those?” I did. The Turkey operation I got to go on and the Honduras and Nicaragua operations I got to go on. They were one-month long–– you go down, do what you do, and get back. Interviewer: “Did you have much interaction with the locals when you’re doing that or are you still isolated?” No, we were interacting with locals pretty close. In fact, I was one of the first ones down and the Embassy flew me into the wrong airport. So I got to the airport and they said, “You’re in the wrong place.” I said, “You bought the ticket.” They said, “Yeah we messed up. Go get a rental �car, put it on the Embassy tab, and drive down.” I’m like, “Wait a minute. I’m by myself in a country I’ve never been in before, and you want me to get a rental car and drive through the mountains of Honduras and find you?” And they were like, “Yeah, no problem. It’s just one road.” That was kind of surreal, you know, driving through the backwoods of Honduras on my way from the city, but going to Tegucigalpa and then finding Soto Cano Airfield, and then doing all the planning and getting all the Marines in there–– but it was a fun operation, it was. The Marines getting into the jungle was different for the Marines, getting the equipment in the jungle. We actually brought all the unit into Honduras and then we had to use barges to barge them into where we were working in Nicaragua–– so that was an interesting feat, but no. It was just the standard everybody was friendly, everybody was glad to see us. We were building a couple schools and a small medical facility for a small town. (1:07:54). Interviewer: “And what were you doing in Turkey?” Turkey was just–– it was a military pre-positioning test, where we would take gear that we had positioned all over the world, go into a beach, set it all up, show we can do it, pack it all back up, and leave again. So just a normal NATO exercise that was done back then. Interviewer: “Then having done that, you go back again to the States and now what do you do next?” I got selected to W2 and–– Interviewer: “So that’s a promotion?” A promotion. Promotion to Warrant Officer 2 and immediately with that in my field, basically, comes a ship tour. You go and you integrate yourself into a Navy crew on an amphib ship, and you’re the liaison for all Marine matters on that ship. And I went to the USS Ponce site, which was an LPD–– smaller than the lost class. It’s a landing ship, it has two spots back for helicopters, but it’s mainly an amphibious assault ship. Interviewer: “What were you doing with that?” I did one regular MEU deployment with them, which was basically the same thing I was doing but this time I was on the Navy side of the house. We took Marines out, we did the last of the great–– of what we call the old med cruises, and when we were in our last month, about to go home, was when the towers came down, September 11th. We were actually off the coast of Sicily when it happened. My wife shot me an email and said, “A plane crashed into the towers.” And immediately we were all thinking, “Okay, yeah. Some Cessna flew into some tower somewhere.” Then we–– I think it was about ten minutes later–– we got a flash message that the �Pentagon had been hit. So, that’s when everything went crazy. We didn’t have television at the time–– you had to steam a certain course for the satellite to link up, so we went out to where we could steam a certain course, got the TVs up and running, and we got the TVs up and running right as tower one came down. So that was just really–– I can just remember being–– and we just watched TV for two days trying to figure out what was going on. And the mood on the boat was, “Is this deployment going to turn into a combat deployment? Are we immediately going over?” And the decision was made [of] no, that’s not what we’re doing, we’re bringing you home. So we went home from that. Got home, didn’t get involved in the Afghanistan stuff at all that was going on. The Marine Corps was kind of held back from that–– it was mainly an Army operation at that point, and then Gulf War II started ticking up. So, I was supposed to transfer off the boat and go back to a ground unit finally, and actually take a break because I had done my sea tour, I had done all these deployments. I was supposed to go somewhere on campus, you know, Cherry Point in North Carolina and then it was the day after Christmas, we got called to the ship and the CO told us we were leaving in a week-and-a-half for the Gulf. “We’re gonna go pick Marines up, we’re gonna go fight in Iraq.” After that meeting I went up to him, I said, “What are you doing with me? I’m supposed to leave next week.” He said, “You’re not leaving next week, your replacement is not coming. Call your wife, tell her you’re not going to checkpoint–– those orders have been rescinded–– and get ready to go.” We had just had our son, he was a couple months old, and we had already started looking at houses to transfer to and I had to go and tell the wife we’re stuck here and she was like, “Do you even know where we’re going when you get back–– whenever you get back?” And I was like, “No idea.” So it was kind of like in a couple days get on a boat and you just had no idea. Everything was up in the air. She made the most of it, she always does. She’s a tough lady–– one of the reasons I married a sailor. (1:11:39). Interviewer: “Yeah. I mean, she’d been in there, she understood something of how the Military works and this kind of stuff can happen. So what assignment do you get?” We were part of ATF East so we went down to Camp Lejeune to pick Marines up. ATF East was the seven ships that pushed from the east coast, there was ATF West which was pushing from the west coast. Interviewer: “And ATFs are amphibious task forces?” Amphibious task force–– they’re put together only in time of war. We took as many Marines as we could carry. It was really crazy because basically all the rules we had for loading ships, we threw out the window. I had gear that was what we call “athwartship stowed.” Basically humvees stowed sideways on a ship, which is something you don’t do. We had everything blocked and braced in because it was basically [you] can’t leave everything on the shore–– everything’s getting on the boat. I had a really good CO, his parents were–– one parent was a Marine, one parent was a sailor–– and he was all about the Marine Corps. He was like, “Chris, �we’re not leaving any of their gear on the boat. Just figure out a way to get it on. I don’t care if we’re legal or not, get it on the boat.” [I] got everything on, really good Marines on the boat, got integrated quick. Everybody was really focused about what we were gonna go do, but we didn’t end up doing an amphibious assault. We took everybody to Kuwait and dumped them off, took all of our ammunition off the ship for it to be pushed forward, and then they told us–– we didn’t know what we were gonna do, you know, what our follow on task was going to be, we didn’t have Marines anymore. And found out we were gonna be a mine-sweep operation. We were gonna be in a mine-control ship for the Al-Faw peninsula–– that area where the rivers empty out into the Persian Gulf. We’re assigned all our mine-sweeps, they put some sea dragons–– large Navy helicopters–– on us that actually tow magnetic poles through the water to find magnetic mines. We got dolphins on our sister ship that we were controlling. They didn’t have a Combat Cargo Officer, so I was actually sent over there to help install dolphin tanks. It’s something you just–– never in a million years–– think you’re even gonna be–– it’s something that’ll ever even cross your path. But I actually got to work with Marine Mammal Systems guys out of San Diego–– don’t even know if we have that unit anymore–– but it–– (1:13:50). Interviewer: “What was the purpose of the dolphins?” The dolphins are mine-finders. Seaworld used to have a military affiliation with the Navy in San Diego, and they trained sea lions as any ship–– so any swimmer. So the sea lions–– actually we had two sea lions in Bahrain that would protect all our ships–– they went down and made sure nobody was putting anything on the boats, there were no scuba divers in the water. It’s basically a Rottweiler with fins, is the way the Navy would explain it to us, and you’d see these big sea lions jump out of the water and get fed fish, and then they’d jump back in the water and go search the bottom of the boats–– fascinating. But we got the dolphins, and the dolphins are trained to go out and find metal objects on the bottom of the ocean and come back and let the divers know where they are, so [the divers] can go down and disarm the mines. Because that was the big word, that they were going to mine that entire area. They did do some mining but not nearly what we thought they were going to do. But, just a neat thing to work with dolphins. Interviewer: “And you also mentioned you’re working with NATO troops at this point.” We were. We actually got a complement of British divers on board. The Brits were going to go in and seize the Al-Faw peninsula. We got some Polish commandos–– the Grom commandos–– which are Polish Special Forces. They were going to go in and see some of the oil platforms that were up there in that area. They basically came to us because we were one of the farthest north units, so they came to us to do some of their reconnaissance. They were able to come out to us, use our services to figure out what they were doing, before the big push started. So, I got to get involved a little bit with the planning with the Brits of how they were going to invade the island. That was really fascinating, helping a foreign military. That was a part of what an embarkation �guy does. We do all the planes and trains and all that, but we also a large part of our job is being trained to plan amphibious assaults. You know, understanding how cargo needs to be faced ashore, understanding combat loading, understanding timelines for when things are going to be taken, that type of stuff. (1:15:51). Interviewer: “Now, do you leave before the actual invasion of Iraq starts? That starts in March––” We were right off the coast when it started. We were still doing that operation the entire time. We stayed through the entire war, until our Marines–– we actually put our Marines back on the boat and took them back home when the whole thing was over. But we did mine-sweep operations the entire time there in the Northern Gulf. Interviewer: “Did you ever have any kind of opposition where you were?” The most interesting thing that happened to us up there was, what we think were some Saddam suicide boats, that were supposed to come out and hit us. The interesting thing that happened to them is, whoever these Iraqis were that tried to come out to us, they went into Iranian waters before they came out to us and the Iranians got a hold of them–– and the Iranians made pretty short work of them. There was one silkworm missile, which is an anti-ship missile that was fired dead reckoning. Basically, the Iraqis were afraid to turn the radar on, so they basically just pointed it at dead azimuth and shot it out into the Gulf. They actually ended up–– I think it hit a mall in Kuwait City, that’s where it actually landed. But that was interesting because basically the missile flew right through our box in the middle of the night, and we had no idea it happened. It was one of those things that Skipper goes, “Hey, a missile landed and we’ve got the launch indicator.” And we went over to the chart table and we looked at it like, “Huh. It flew right by us last night.” So that was the extent of the intensity of what we saw, so nothing big. We’d have Iranian boats that would come out and challenge us every now and then, which is normal stuff in the Persian Gulf. They love to come out and just play games with us. And because of the towing of these special helicopters–– basically the helicopter has to come back to the boat and land, and as it’s doing that it is still attached to this huge, the best way to explain it is, it’s a giant magnetic telephone pole, so that thing has to be recovered and pulled into the ship. And this whole thing is a restructured maneuvering condition for the boat–– and it takes a lot of time–– so keeping the Iranians away from the boat and keeping them from fouling our path through the ocean, that was a big part of it. Small boats running around and just getting rid of them and that type of stuff. That’s just what they do. (1:18:11). Interviewer: “And so how many months do you think you were out there?” We ended up–– I think it was a five-and-a-half-month deployment for us by the time it was over. �Interviewer: “Now when you come back from there, what’s next for you?” I finally got off the boat, but I didn’t get off the boat the way I thought I was going to get off the boat. I was sent down to Camp Lejeune, and I was supposed to go to an artillery regiment and the reason they were going to send me to an artillery regiment–– also a unit that’s not supposed to deploy–– and by that point my ticker was–– I had had a lot of deployments, a lot more deployments than most people. So I was relieved to find out I was going to an artillery unit. Before I got there, there was me–– at that time I was W3, I had just put W3 on–– and there was a brand new W1 that was coming in that was supposed to go to a new regiment. They were standing up 8th Marines because the fighting in Iraq was getting more severe, so they had brought 8th Marines back out of mothballs. And I found out a month after I got there that I got traded for beer at the O Club. So my boss, Colonel Gerghainis at the time–– ended up being General Gerghainis–– he went to the division commander and said, “Hey, I heard you sent me a W1.” He said, “I don’t want a W1. I’m standing a unit up from nothing, I hear there’s a W3 coming into 10th Marines.” And he said, “Yeah, but you don’t rate a W3.” He said, “I don’t care [that] I don't rate a W3.” And Gerghainis is a guy that got what he wanted, so I ended up reporting to 8th Marine Regiment, which was a surprise to me when I got down there. But I couldn’t have gone to a better place–– of course, it meant more and more deploying. As soon as I sat down there they were putting Marines in Afghanistan for the first time, so the boss put me in charge of that. He said, “Go figure out how to get my Marines in Afghanistan.” So I had to go figure out the airport system that the DoD had set up using–– we were using Kyrgyzstan at the time–– Manas, Kyrgyzstan to push forces through. Marine units hadn’t done that before. We do things a little differently than the Air Force and the Army, so we had to basically go to all these different hubs [like], “This is how we do business. How do you do business? How can we get these guys in there?” It was about two months of figuring that whole thing out and getting that unit in place before I came home–– it was a mini-deployment, if you want to call it that. I really enjoyed it because it was one of the coolest moments for me in my life because my father was deployed to Bagram, Afghanistan at the time with the Rangers. I actually got to go meet up with dad in a combat theatre, sit down at chow hall, have dinner with my old man, and take one of my most treasured photographs I own–– is a picture of me and him together with Hindu Kush Mountains behind us there in Bagram. (1:20:44). Interviewer: “Now you’ve been to Afghanistan.” Yep. I have been to Afghanistan. I had come home from that and we went on what was called ACM which is the Air Contingency MAGTF. It was a unit that had never been used before–– kind of like the Army Airborne has a battalion that’s always within 24 hours of being able to be deployed anywhere in the world. The Marine Corps does the same thing, and the reason why the Army does it one way and we do it another is the Army is going to give you an entire battalion of airborne troops that can sustain themselves for 30 days. If you need more than that, then you �come to the Marine Corps–– we’ll give you an ACM. An ACM can be tailored to whatever the situation is for ground troops, for support troops, or for aviation troops. We can get the first elements of that anywhere in the world in 24 hours, and then the follow on troops will all close within ten days. So you can have a regimental sized force in ten days instead of a battalion that can do 30 day ops. Everybody always told us, “Don’t worry about ACM. ACM never goes anywhere. Never seen an ACM deploy,” and I was like, “Hey, I’m here” so it’s going to deploy, and it did. Aristide got pushed out of power and within 24 hours of him getting on an airplane in Port-au-Prince, we were getting Marines on airplanes to go over and take over Port-au-Prince and run the city. For the follow-on forces that eventually came in there–– the French came in there and took over the northern half Haiti, we took over the southern half of Haiti, and we did operations there for four-and-a-half months until we turned everything over to the Brazilian government. The Brazilian brought their troops in and they did sustainment ops down there. (1:22:30). Interviewer: “Now is this sort of like a UN operation?” It was under the auspices of the UN–– that’s the, and it’s kind of a weird operation, it started out as kind of a NATO thing and then it ended up growing into a UN thing when we got the Brazilians in charge. We needed to extricate ourselves from it, only because our ops tempo for the US Military was so high. Brazilians were looking for a mission to do–– as a growing military, it was something they were interested in doing. It was just–– the Marine Corps has a long relationship with Haiti, so does America. The Marine Corps has probably been there six times, so whenever unrest happens in Haiti we send the Marines in, everything calms down, we come back home. The main reason we do that is because if you don’t calm Haiti down, then all the Haitians get on their boats and they all come to America. That’s the real reason why we go and calm Haiti down when we have problems; there’s always this mass exodus and there’s a large loss of life whenever that takes place. In Haiti–– I’ve been to Somalia and I’ll tell you Somalia is a very rough place to be–– but honestly, going to Haiti is such an education because something in this hemisphere that is at that poverty level is mind-blowing. To anyone who ever gets the chance to get down there, it’s a place that you’ve got to see to believe. You literally can take off in the Dominican Republic on a helicopter and start flying towards Haiti and when you get to the Haitian border the trees stop because everything on the Haitian side of the border has been turned to charcoal and burned for heat. That’s the level of poverty you’re dealing with, and that’s the reason why you hear about mudslides and all these other problems they have. It’s a rough area to work in–– the people that work there are doing the Lord’s work without a doubt. It’s mainly missionaries, but it’s a rough country. That’s what we were trying to do–– was just calm down. There’s a lot of gang violence and our big mission was to just suppress the violence that was going on in Port-au-Prince and the areas of the Southern claw that we were responsible for. (1:24:37). �Interviewer: “How successful were you as far as you could tell?” Really. I mean Haiti is one of those places that once authority shows up, it settles down pretty quickly. The people that are the troublemakers there don’t want to make trouble with people that are organized militaries. They usually are making trouble because there’s just not much organization that is in Haiti. Haiti is Haiti. I have been told that by Haitians. Haiti is what Haiti is, Haiti will always be Haiti. In Haiti you have one percent that has everything and 99 percent that has absolutely nothing and that’s just the way the country works. It settled down pretty quickly, by the time we turned it over to Brazilians it was pretty quiet and back to normal. Of course, that was pre-earthquakes and everything else that happened down there recently. Interviewer: “Now you get to go back to the States and you’re still with the 8th Marines at that point?” Yep, still with 8th Marines. We immediately entered back into the deployment cycle for going to Iraq. It was–– Gerghainis came and told us, “Look guys, yeah we just got back from Haiti but we’re going to deploy on the same timeline that we were originally gonna deploy.” So everything that we were supposed to do in 12 months, we’re doing in six months. He was such a great commander, he said, “Basically guys, we got a plate full of food, eat as fast as you can, if you don’t eat all your vegetables just make sure you come to me and tell me what vegetables you didn’t eat.” He was a very down-to-Earth, country boy from North Carolina and “we will get there” was his whole thing. (1:26:10). Interviewer: “So what does a unit have to do to prepare for deployment to Iraq?” Everything. At this point everything had become–– we always said “very corporate.” You had to go over to March Air Force Base where they had set up all the facilities for training people leaving for Iraq. You had actors that were acting as bad guys, civilians, that type stuff. So you’re entering an environment that felt like Iraq. You were doing all that “pre”–– that was most of the pre-deployment training. Going to the rifle range, getting all your rifles sighted in. We went out and did a CAX–– basically a miniature CAX–– which is a combined arms exercise done at 29 palms so you can practice integrating aviation fires, artillery fires, ground training maneuvers so you’re not killing people in friendly fire. It’s a really big thing. It’s a lot of training that has to be done and we basically had half the time that most units get to get it done. There was a lot more stress–– we had all just come out of Haiti. Me–– I’m just this constantly going jackrabbit since I have been in and immediately going into that was kind of a grinder. We got ourselves through the pre-deployment training, got deployed, and that was right–– I think it was two weeks before we deployed–– found out I was going to be made an LDO Captain. Interviewer: “What is an LDO Captain?” �An LDO Captain is an even more elite technical officer than the Warrant Officer is. LDOs are regular officers that are–– you can go from Captain all the way to Lieutenant Colonel with no college. Basically you’re in Warrant Officer training and you’re in enlisted training, then they just go ahead and say, “Bless you. You’re a Captain.” I’m taking your Warrant Officer off you one day and putting a Limited Duty officer on. But, it’s a Captain bar just like all the other Captains where you're the same rank, same abilities. The only difference with us is we can never have command. A regular Lieutenant, a regular Captain, can have company command or battalion command, we can never do that. We are stuck in our staff job for the rest of our career. Because I was promoted Captain I was supposed to come out of the unit, but Gerghainis looked at me and said, “You’re not going anywhere.” I knew that he was going to rotate out too, halfway through the deployment over in Iraq, and I asked him, I said, “Look, I’ll go. I have no problem going. I’ll tell my guys I’m going, we’ll push this whole ‘I’m going’ thing, but when you leave Iraq I want to be in your cargo pocket.” And he promised me–– he said, “Chris, you’ll get out. You won’t have to do a full year. We’ll get you out of there a couple months early.” And they did. They got me out–– got a replacement for me. But, we got into Iraq in January–– (1:29:01). Interviewer: “Of what year?” I think it was ‘07. I can’t really–– Interviewer: “Well in Spring of ‘07––” Yep. Spring of ‘07. Interviewer: “It says in Spring of ‘07 you were selected to be LDO Major.” That was ‘05. Interviewer: “I have February ‘05 it says deployed to Fallujah.” So we were post the second Battle of Fallujah. The city at that point, it was still tightly controlled access in and out. We basically got everybody out we could, put a wall around it, made all the bad guys go away, and then slowly let the civilian population return, trying to control–– make sure–– no guns were flowing back into the city. That worked at varying levels of success, but we took over from the units that had done the Battle of Fallujah. The big thing we were responsible for was basically rebuilding the city that had been destroyed in certain sectors–– because of the fighting. We did a lot of moving money–– moving money and distributing money, engineering projects to get the city back on its feet, trying to set up a police force there, trying to set up different levels of government there to get the city functioning again. That was our main task–– �was that area. We had three infantry battalions and one reconnaissance battalion that was on the south side of the city. It was just managing those units. Interviewer: “Were you based outside of the city?” Right outside of the city in the main Fallujah complex, which is a large direct support base [about] five kilometers from the city. Interviewer: “Did you have Marines who were stationed in the city itself?” Yes. The city was separated into three sectors and an infantry battalion had each of those sectors. All of us–– even though we lived out of the city–– we spent a lot of time in the city because we were in direct support of the units that were there. So for us we were going back and forth constantly, moving in and out of the city. Interviewer: “Do you have much contact with any Iraqi forces at this point or were they kept separate?” We did. We were bringing in–– in fact that was a large part of what my unit individually did–– we were bringing in the 4th Brigade, which was a unit from Southern Iraq. It’s really interesting it was done that way because the people in Southern Iraq were very different from the people in Northern Iraq–– religiously. You know, one group is Shia and one group is Sunni. We had a Shia heavy force that we were bringing into the city of Fallujah–– which I still don’t understand the reasoning behind that–– but we were bringing the 4th Brigade in and we were training the 4th Brigade at the same time. I had a lot of really good relationships. I actually interfaced directly with their logistics department–– it was Major Omar, at least that’s what we called him. He was their S4–– their logistics guy. I spent a lot of time with him talking about how we did things and a lot of time eating chicken. Whenever we went over there we’d sit down, dine with them. We always ate Iraqi food which was actually really good. Naan bread and chicken, it’s great. It was interesting to get to interface with them, especially with me having been in the First Gulf War and the Second Gulf War–– I’m just kind of interfacing with a person that was the enemy at one point, but they’re not enemies at that point. It’s a really interesting relationship. In fact, we were teaching really basic logistic stuff to them and a lot of us felt bad in a way about it. It’s kind of like these guys are professional officers, I mean Omar had fought in the Iran-Iraq War and I asked him one day. I was really honest and I said, “How do you feel about the stuff we’re teaching you? Is it beneath you?” And he says, “No, no, no. You came in here, you beat us twice. We can learn some things.” It was just really–– it was very cheery. I would love to know where he is now with everything that has gone on. It was getting that unit stood-up and as they were getting stood-up we started integrating them into our infantry battalions and turning over portions of the patrolling and that type of stuff to them and the police we were training. It was �trying to get the country turned back over, that was the idea. Back to the forces of the country. (1:33:11). Interviewer: “Was there much violence at this point?” Yeah. It was low intensity, asymmetrical combat constantly. A lot of IEDs. IEDs were the biggest thing we dealt with. Dealt with VBIEDs at some point. Probably the worst day we had there–– I can’t remember the day off the top of my head. I mean, I remember it like a movie but we had female search teams that we were putting at the various gates of the city out of respect for the Arabic culture–– we wanted females being searched by females. Our unit had gotten in a habit of moving these people around on a schedule, which is always bad. We weren’t thinking of it like that–– I think there was a little bit of hubris that was going on. We were kind of in charge. We were moving in large convoys, we’d be fine, and we had a VBIED hit one of our female search teams one night. It was a civilian vehicle. It had several artillery shells, we think, in it. They knew exactly what they were doing. They knew exactly what vehicles to hit and that was the first time we had lost females in our command. Interviewer: “These VBIEDs–– Vehicle-Borne––” Vehicle-Borne IED. So basically a suicide truck or a suicide car. That was the moment–– we had up to that point we had lost about 20 males, but that was the first time we had lost females. Which it’s a really interesting dynamic. I can tell you that even General Gerghainis who–– the guy’s a rock. I mean he’s just a stone, you don’t think anything would ever faze him. But I think the fact that he had college aged daughters at the time–– it hit everybody hard. It even hit the CO hard. Did a lot of soul-searching about the way we were doing things. We started looking at complacency in every way that complacency could possibly take over. That became the word of the day: complacency will kill you. The unit definitely had a major push to undo all of that and get back to the way we were supposed to do business. That was probably the worst day. I lost one of the Marines that was working directly for me–– he had a family. [It] kind of hit my wife too because she was the coordinator for all of the wives for our unit for our section. This was before we had really figured out how to do casualty operations. We were still, as the Marine Corps, getting used to how we organized the wives and the rear around casualties–– the wives, back then, were doing things like helping to run memorials. That was when the Marine Corps figured out this is not the way to do things. You can’t have young wives doing this kind of stuff with her husband still deployed. So the Marine Corps actually went through a whole shake-up of the way that system was done–– out of the stuff that was going on with us, which was good. But yeah, that was probably the hardest day for the unit over there. (1:36:12). Interviewer: “Other things from that deployment that kind of stand out in your memory?” �Funniest thing that happened on that deployment was when I first got there. I think I had been there about two weeks and General Gerghainis called me into his office and he said, “Chris, I need to move several million in Iraqi dinar. How do I do it?” I was just kind of taken aback and I’m like I don’t even know how to calculate what we’re talking about. I told him, “I’m not a Swiss banker. I physically need to go to the money that we are gonna move with a scale and a tape measure and figure out what we’re talking about.” He said, “I can get you into one of the banks in Fallujah where the money’s stored.” I said, “That’ll work.” So, we went into a bank vault and actually took bricks of cash–– Iraqi denominations–– measured them, weighed them, and figured out how much each denomination was, how their money was organized. Then we went back to the Embassy and said, “We can do this but give us exactly what we’re getting. Tell us how many bills–– what are we getting?” We ended up figuring it out and we–– of course–– thought we were talking about like a carload of cash. In the end we were talking about a 20-foot ISO container of cash. It was a lot bigger than what we thought we were going to be dealing with. Then at the time, the MSR between Baghdad and Fallujah–– I mean it’s famous; the Green Line there is the highway to hell. You don’t want to be out in the Green Line, it’s one of the most IED places in the world. Taking that much money down there, there was no way we were going to do that, so we figured we had to fly it. We called our Marine air and they said only a heavy lift can do that and heavy lifts weren’t allowed to fly into Fallujah because we had lost one and it killed almost 20 some-odd Marines. So we ended up with the Army as our only option, and I called up the Army–– they were called the sugar-bears–– up in Balad and I told them what we were going to do, just out of the blue, and they were like, “So you want us to move a million dollars worth of cash for you guys, from Baghdad into Fallujah?” I was like, “That’s exactly what we’re doing.” They said, “We only have one thing we want to ask you to do.” We said, “What’s that?” He says, “All the guys on the mission, we want to lay in the cash and take a big picture.” We were like, “Knock yourselves out.” So we actually pulled the cash out of the trucks there in Baghdad and let them all get a picture with all this money. We flew it in–– it took several helicopter loads to get it all in–– and then the rest of my job became distributing that money. Each week we’d take so much money into the city, and in random places, and we would distribute it to the businesses that had been destroyed and damaged. That was probably the most interesting thing I had to do. (1:39:04). Interviewer: “Now, are you going and meeting with the business owners and handing them the money?” Basically. There was a process where they would come to an area we had, they would say what was destroyed, then there would be an engineer and an Iraqi government official that would go out and verify–– two-person integrity–– what had been destroyed. Yes this person was the owner and then the payment would get made and when the payment was made, they would basically tell them the day before so there was no time to plan anything against us. We [then] would go meet the people and dole the cash out. I was just responsible for getting it there, I didn’t have any �of the other concerns. It was really interesting. There was a lot of money distributed there to rebuild that city. Every building we broke, we paid for. Kind of an interesting thing in warfare. I think it was probably one of the first times that was ever done. Interviewer: “There were equivalents of that in Vietnam and in other places, but probably on a different level. When do you get to leave Iraq?” I left Iraq in October–– when the Colonel left, I left. Headed back to the states and went to my next unit. I was supposed to go to the 26th MEU, which is also a deploying unit, but at that point in my career I didn’t have a choice. You have to go to MEU if you want your career to continue. Interviewer: “That’s a Marine Expeditionary Unit?” Marine Expeditionary Unit. Basically going right back to the ships. I went there and had a great CO, great XO, great experience at 26 MEU and did one deployment with them. The deployment was to the Middle East. The good thing about that deployment was because of my rank at the time, I was involved in all the planning operations so I didn’t spend a lot of time on the ship–– probably half my time was on the ship, half my time was living in hotels in Kenya or Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Kuwait City. So doing all of the planning for all of the exercises that the unit was going to do. A lot of time in Jordan, which I really love. Jordan is one of my favorite countries. It was a good deployment, but it was another deployment. (1:41:17). Interviewer: “But this one is not–– you’re not really to a combat zone versus––” Oh, no. We were considered–– everything in the Persian Gulf is considered a combat zone and received combat pay, but it wasn’t. We weren’t doing combat operations at the time. It was all training operations, meeting the training goals. While everybody else was up in Iraq doing what they were doing, we were the ones training with all of our partners. Interviewer: “What were you doing in Kenya?” Kenya was–– at the time we had special operations forces that were operating out of Northern Kenya. We were training with them and we were training with the Kenyan military. That was just another training opportunity that was there. We were kind of at the time, that was when the Marine Corps was starting to stand-up AFRICOM and starting to get involved in Africa again–– seeing Africa as a future venue that we were going to need to train in. That was one of those initial get out there, shake hands, we had one of our infantry companies train one of their infantry companies and had a big party at the end. We all got together and shot off rifles together. Kenya was fascinating, I loved working in Kenya. �Interviewer: “I guess at that point there’s probably concerns about increasing Islamist activity in various places.” Exactly. You were dealing with Boko Haram and those agents up there in that Somali/Central African Corridor at that time. Interviewer: “How long was that deployment?” That was only a couple weeks of the six months. Interviewer: “Kenya was a couple weeks, but it was six months total?” It was six months. (1:42:51). Interviewer: “And then–– so you go back home again and––” Go back home again and I got selected for Major and I’m supposed to go and take a break again– – and every time in my career I was supposed to go to unit where I was supposed to not be deployable, I would go to the unit and that unit, for the first time in its history, would be deployed. Or for the first time in the last decade, be deployed. I went to the Second Marine Air Wing there at Cherry Point. My job was to control all movement for the wing but not to leave Cherry Point, but that was when they decided they were going to put an entire wing headquarters into Iraq. So, here it comes again: going to do another deployment, but there was a caveat. They needed to also put a unit into Afghanistan. My boss at the time, she wasn’t thrilled with her options for the people she could send to Afghanistan because none of the officers she had in the unit had any experience with expeditionary ops. They were all staff guys at their level, so she kind of looked over at me and said, “I know this isn’t your job–– that you’re a movement guy, you’re not a basic logistics guy but me and the General have decided you’re going to be the one to go to Afghanistan and we’re going to take the other guys to Iraq.” It’s like they get to go to the land of the big chow hall because they have no experience, and I get to live in a tent. In one way you’re flattered, but in the other way you’re kind of like it just keeps happening over and over again. Anway, great boss that I was going to ATF East with. He was a Cobra pilot–– Wally Watkins–– just an amazing man. A good group of officers I got put together with, it was a really interesting mission. We were going into southern Afghanistan–– this is before the Obama surge into Afghanistan. We kind of knew something was going to come and we were going to grow that force but we were the initial unit that went in there. It was just one very small Marine air combat element, which is what I was a part of. We had a couple of Cobras and a couple of 53s–– large heavy lifts and attack helicopters. Then we had one Marine battalion that was spread out over a huge AOR. I mean you had one battalion of Marines that were basically covering the state of Tennessee. Basically, there were a couple guys in Nashville, a couple guys in Chattanooga, �and that’s just the way AOR was at the time–– doing what they could to tamp things down. They interfaced heavily with the British because the British controlled Helmand province at the time. We were just doing small level, asymmetrical, small-intensity conflict, IEDs, that type of stuff. Starting to understand how we’re going to stand-up the Afghan military, how we were going to stand up the Afghan police force, and trying to get those things started there in those regions–– and keeping them calm enough to where we could start creating these sustainable organizations within Afghanistan. But it grew very quickly into something else. We realized very quickly that that wasn’t going to happen and I think that’s when the administration decided now we need to surge troops in and we went from being a very small operation with one battalion to having a full regimental sized MEB–– what we call a MEB–– Marine Expeditionary Brigade. (1:46:18). Interviewer: “When are you actually there because Obama doesn’t take office until ‘09?” It must have been–– am I off? No. It was Obama because he had just come into office. It must have been ‘09. Interviewer: “Yeah.” Yeah, it must have been ‘09 timeframe because it was one of the first operations, I know, that he approved. It would have been right after he took over. Yep. The decision was made that in the summer we were going to surge from what we were to something much larger. Because of that, we were based on Kandahar originally–– which was a NATO ISAF base. We had forces from France, Denmark, everybody in there. Poles, Brits, but we weren’t going to fit so we had to figure out somewhere else we were going to live. Kandahar went from being a very small airfield to having the same air traffic as Heathrow, almost in a year. One of the most complicated airspace zones anywhere in the world. We knew we were going to have to move out bringing in an entire aviation. We were gonna bring in four squadrons so we started looking [at] what we were going to do. The Brits had a base called Camp Bastion–– it was out in the middle of nowhere in the desert. It was sitting on a really nice aquifer, so it was one of those rare places out there that had really good fresh water and we went out, we looked at it, and they had a lot of territory that was out to the side of it that was completely unused. We decided there was enough area out there to build an entire Marine base and also build an ANA–– Afghan National Army base. Then the Afghans had a base, we had a base. We could train the Afghans and we could start integrating them in and that’s what we did–– we brought all of the Marines out there. I remember when they called it Camp Leatherneck–– I think it’s been completely taken apart now–– but I remember when it was 110th and by the time I left it was a city. (1:48:18). Interviewer: “Now, you’re there with an Air Wing?” Yeah. �Interviewer: “So what is the Air Wing supposed to be doing?” The Air Wing is supporting all of these units that are all over the place. We had to build multiple bases for air support. The distances you’re talking about, we called it tyranny of distance. The legs were so long, you’re so distributed in a place like Afghanistan. One: everything is so hard to get in to the country. It’s a landlocked nation, nobody around it’s friendly towards, completely friendly towards what you’re doing. Logistics just becomes the hardest nut to crack. You can, you know, bullets on foreheads? Easy thing. Trying to get things in the right place, getting people supported? That became the big push. What we realized really early we were going to have to do is build satellite sites everywhere. You were going to need to put fuel here, have small runways here, caches, small supply caches pushed forward as much as you could push them forward. That’s what we got into the business of doing. We started building small bases all over the AOR. The first one we pushed out was Base Dalaram. Dalaram was a huge facility in the end, but it was hard. It was hard living. That sand composition down there was terrible, there was no water almost down there, so all the water we were having to bring in. The first Marine battalion we put in there, I still remember the General coming back and telling us, “I just looked at a Marine battalion that the entire unit is in thermal shock. They are not combat effective, they won’t be combat effective.” And that was the day they determined that the whole push–– we had to fix Dalaram. We had to fix the Dalaram problem. All of the logistics we started getting, we started forcing into Dalaram to try to fix. We were just surging so fast [and] Marines have this very expeditionary idea that “I can go anywhere, I can fight anywhere, I can do anything,” but there are some distances and some temperatures and some environments that you just can’t throw a unit into and expect to be effective. We were learning that the hard way. (1:50:26). Interviewer: “Well with things like the climate, I mean did people acclimate over a period of time? Or what do you do?” When the surge happened they went and found whatever units weren’t deployed to Iraq and they said, “Within weeks you guys are deploying.” So, they sped up the whole pre-deployment training process. It was a bear to get these guys converted over and get ready. The idea was we were gonna put those battalions out there and then we were gonna put them in these spots, condensed, behind wire. The whole idea was once we got enough logistical power into Helmand province, they wanted to do–– and we did–– the largest airborne assault that had been done since Vietnam. We were going to integrate British helicopters, [and] our helicopters. We were going to go where we had put all of these Marines and all of this stuff, and in one night we were gonna take three Marine battalions and put them out in the field in all these trouble spots. Literally the mujahedeen went to sleep, the next morning they woke up and there were Marines in their backyard and the Marines had already dug themselves in and they were there to stay–– and that’s what we did. That was what the idea was. I mean there were guys that were pushing sites out–– platoon and company level sites were being constructed in 24-hours. They would show up and �they would immediately start bob-wiring, digging in, and boom. The next day you had a fire base and we went from having three sites to having probably 18 or 20 sites in 24 hours–– that we were supporting and trying to take over, trying to get our presence everywhere so we could calm the area down. (1:52:00). Interviewer: “Now by the time you did that did the troops become acclimated?” Yeah. They had, but it was hell and there’s no other way to explain it. It was tough. I mean even the conditions that we were living in at Leatherneck were conditions that Marines just–– Marines had gotten so, by that point, used to going on a deployment like Iraq and an officer has half of an ISO container that’s air-conditioned. It’s kind of like a little–– it’s a room. It’s a hotel room in the desert, self-contained, and this was going back. Way back. I remember when I got to Leatherneck we had 18 officers in a GP medium tent with no air-conditioning in bunk-bed cots. Those were field grade officers, you know, these were guys that were used to having much more space–– so it was rustic. Back to basics. Interviewer: “How much longer did you stay there after you sent those battalions?” I was kind of a holdover. I was the only one from the original unit–– actually me and the doctor were the only two that were kept there. That was because they didn’t have back fills for us and we were already so integrated into the logistical system–– her and I–– that they were like, “No we need to keep those two. We’ll rotate them out later.” I ended up doing–– doc ended up doing seven months in the country–– and I did eight months in the country before I came out and finally found a replacement for me. Interviewer: “So when do you get back home?” Got back home and kind of went back to my normal day job running the wing for about six months. Then they decided they were going to rotate our unit back over there to Iraq but this time they decided, “ Chris isn’t going.” They were good to me and they said, “No. You’re gonna stay back and you’re gonna be one of the few officers we leave back to run the wing while the wing is forward deployed.” So I got to stay back during that deployment, came up to the end of my tour. While they were gone they brought in a replacement for me and I went to Blount Island command down in Florida. First time, good deal. First time the Marine Corps was honest with me and said, “We’re gonna send you to a good deal” and I went to a good deal. So I went down to Jacksonville, Florida to Blount Island command–– which is where the Marine Corps runs all of its military pre-positioning from. The Marine Corps keeps around 24 ships all over the world at different sites in the Pacific and Diego Garcia’s where we keep a lot of them. We also have caves up in Norway and all of these facilities have all of the equipment we would use if we deployed. That’s one of the reasons why the Marine Corps is able to move so quickly, because �we honestly don’t need to move the equipment the Marines have. We just need to move the Marines and marry them up with the same equipment we have pre-positioned all over the world. I was in charge of managing that pre-positioning system for the Marine Corps. (1:54:59). Interviewer: “Now would you go to the places?” Yes. I got to go to Diego Garcia which was fascinating. Beautiful atoll out in the middle of the Indian Ocean. I didn’t get to go to Norway because that wasn’t my bailiwick––well I was in charge but not of the caves–– of the shipping. I was also made the operations officer for all exercises in the Middle East because of my experience with the Middle East. I was going and leaving home but I was only leaving home for three/four weeks at a time, and most of that living was hotels. It was actually interfacing with government officials, foreign militaries, and planning exercises in Jordan, UAE, and Bahrain. A really good tour for three years. Interviewer: “So now they have finally given you a good assignment, but not too long after that you leave the Marine Corps.” Yes. Interviewer: “How does that happen?” I did three years there and I was coming up for promotion to Lieutenant Colonel, which is the max rank you can have in the job field I’m in. As you get–– as in any business, things pyramid–– as you get closer to the top. There are fewer and fewer slots and because there are fewer and fewer slots, it’s kind of a “one guy goes, one guy comes in” so where you are going to go and what you are going to do is kind of pre-scripted based on when you’re promoted. I knew that when I was coming up for promotion the job that was becoming open was at headquarters Marine Corps at the Pentagon. I talked to the guy that had the job at the time and I said, “Hey, is that what’s in the cards if I end up getting selected as Lieutenant Colonel?” He said, “Yeah.” Well, what he told me was, “You’re either going to the Pentagon or there is a chance you could go to Okinawa.” At the time I had school-aged children, Okinawa wasn’t really–– we wouldn’t want to take kids over there that were going to do their senior year and then try to figure out college from overseas, so that was off the table. The Pentagon was just a bridge too far for us as a family. My wife, by that time, was a working accountant for the government–– had a really good government job and like I said, school-aged children did not want to go to D.C. To have the standard of living that we had gotten accustomed to in the Marine Corps, we’d have to live two hours outside the city–– three hours of commuting everyday. (1:57:12). Interviewer: “Commuting in the D.C. area, yeah.” �And the traffic too. Well the traffic and then the security that the Pentagon has now. Just getting through Pentagon security is a 20/25 minute affair every morning. It just wasn’t what I wanted at that point in my career. It was just that decision time–– sit down with the wife and say, “Hey, been in 24 years. If I don’t show up tomorrow they have to give me 60 percent of my money anyway. I can just retire.” We just made the decision that it was time to hang it up and it was time to get out of the Marine Corps and transition and do something else. Interviewer: “Because part of it for you is because you were a Limited Duty Officer, you had very few options. Now as you were moving through, speaking once you became a Warrant Officer and then were roping up there, did everyone ever recommend to you that you go and get a college degree so you can become a regular officer?” No. That is possible, but it’s just not something–– in all of my time in the Marine Corps, I knew one that did that. Now I knew a lot of guys that went to school that were Restricted Officers and I knew several guys that got degrees. But to get converted over and made a regular Officer, there’s a lot of hoops. Basically it’s a Secretary of the Navy decision to do something like that. It’s not a normal thing that’s done. There’s just no need for it. Plus, when they’ve trained you to this level–– it’s almost like being a pilot. I’ve spent all this time turning you into this technical Superman in your field, so why would I take you out of that and put you in the regular military and give you some other job. Interviewer: “I guess I see it more in people who are in the Army, but the Army is a much larger organization.” Yeah. The Marine Corps is so small that like I said, as you get near the top it literally becomes that there’s seven jobs at that rank, and you know all of those guys. You’ve been friends for years and you know who’s shifting where and it’s just a zero-sum game at that point. There’s nowhere to hide or disappear into or extra billet. It’s just–– it is what it is. (1:59:11). Interviewer: “So when you decide to get out, how do you wind up in Michigan?” My wife’s with the Defense Contract Audit Agency. We were in Florida–– she’s originally from Minnesota. Like I said, I grew up in Germany so the one thing we knew is we just wanted to come somewhere with four seasons. We both like to ski, so it was–– she went to her agency and said, “I want to go North.” Which they were kind of amused by because everyone in government agencies wants to go South. For some reason they all want to go to Florida or California. Christina was like, “No. I want to go to the Midwest.” They said, “Sure. Knock yourself out” and they looked around and they had an opening in Grand Rapids. My wife came home and said, “How do you feel about Michigan?” I said, “Where?” “Grand Rapids.” I looked it up. Military family, used to shuffling around, looked at it. It’s got a University where I can go back to school. �It’s known as “Beer City,” it sounds like a good place, let’s just go. We’ve been here for four years and I’m almost done with my degree. We’ll probably–– we’ve got our oldest in the Army right now and our youngest is about to graduate and when he graduates he’s looking at going to U of M and once we get him into school, we’re really considering going back to Europe now. With my wife’s agency she could actually travel overseas and maybe we just go overseas for a couple years and then figure it out from there. Interviewer: “Normally when I close out an interview it's usually with people who were in for two, three, four years, you know. I’ll ask them how they think their time in the service affected them or what did they take out of it. Of course, for you it’s a whole career. If you kind of wanted to sum up the whole thing, what would you say about the experience?” (2:00:58). I came in at a point where I was really fortunate I had a father that had some insight, who understood the military that said, “No. You need to go somewhere that has potential for growth. It has upward mobility because you’re that kind of guy that in that environment will bloom very quickly.” He was absolutely right. I caught a job field that was growing at a huge rate so that accelerated everything for me. There was never a promotion where I wasn’t eligible–– where it wasn’t almost automatic, which is unheard of in most branches. Especially in the Marine Corps with me in a small service. Not a lot of people–– there’s not that much open upward mobility, so I was really fortunate and I know that. I mean getting to go from PFC to Major and retiring at Major pay is huge. It’s a worry I don’t have, that a lot of other people have. On the first of the month, a big check shows up. So yeah, you put a lot in. I did all of that deploying, a lot of time away from the family, but now there’s just this level of security that–– it’s just worth it. Also, when it came to going back to school, I came back to school for two reasons. One, I always wanted to go. My brother went, my parents were both educated, and I always felt like I wanted to go to school but I knew I wasn’t ready to go to school when I was a teenager. I just didn’t have the maturity level for it–– that’s why it was a given I was going in. Now that I’ve come back, it has done two things for me. One, it’s helped me integrate back into being normal–– I guess is the way to say it. When you’re around the same people for 24-years–– the same mindset–– I think not enough veterans recalibrate and one of the best places to recalibrate is at school. Going back, being exposed to the whole-wide-world, everybody again, learning to operate in that environment, learning to talk like a civilian and not like a Marine. And you’ve got so many things going for you. Just because of your work ethic, school is not hard in any way. I mean just because I know how to task organize, I know how to plan my time, and it's–– yeah. Interviewer: “I’ve got a class I could use you in right now.” So yeah. It’s been really good. I’m actually looking to possibly go into teaching at the University level in the long run, so down the road. �Interviewer: “Well it makes for a pretty remarkable story and you certainly tell it well. Thank you very much for taking the time to share it today.” (2:03:40). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BergeronC2337V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bergeron, Christopher F. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-10 Title A name given to the resource Bergeron, Christopher (Interview transcript and video), 2073 Description An account of the resource Christopher Bergeron was born in 1972 in Anniston, Alabama to two members of the service. In July of 1990, three weeks after graduating high school, Bergeron began his Marines career by attending boot camp in Parris Island, South Carolina. Eventually, Bergeron went out to Norfolk where he attended the Amphibious Embarkation School and became a Logistics Embarkation Specialist, after which he went to Saudi Arabia for the first time. It was during this same time that Bergeron went into Kuwait. He then returned to the States and was quickly deployed to Norway for a different operation. Bergeron then had a deployment to Somalia during their Civil War period and was there for two-and-a-half months before returning to the States in Jacksonville. He was deployed as a Sergeant to Aviano, Italy, Bosnia, and Tunisia. In his next deployment, Bergeron was selected for Warrant Officer and shipped to Quantico for his Warrant Officer courses. After this promotion Bergeron was deployed to Turkey, Honduras, and Nicaragua. Immediately after returning from this deployment Bergeron got selected to W2 and got sent to another ship tour towards the Persian Gulf. By this time the invasion of Iraq had started, and Bergeron stayed for a five-and-a-half-month deployment. Upon his return to America, Bergeron was quickly shipped off again, this time to Afghanistan. After that, he was shipped to Haiti to help with the violence there, and headed home to soon find out that he was going to be deployed to Iraq. At this point, Bergeron was selected to be an LDO, a Limited Duty Officer, and was stationed near Fallujah. After that, he returned to continue his career with MEU where he was deployed again. This time Bergeron spent time in Kenya, Dubai, and Kuwait. After this six-month deployment Bergeron was then selected to be a Major in Afghanistan. After this deployment Bergeron was then sent down to Jacksonville, Florida to Blount Island. It was at this point when Bergeron went on another tour for three years, this time visiting Jordan, the UAE, and Bahrain. However, soon after this Bergeron was selected for the highest rank of Lieutenant Colonel. Unfortunately, it was at this point Christopher Bergeron decided to end his 24-year Marine Corps career. He and his family moved to the Grand Rapids area, where he decided to go back to school and is looking to eventually teach at the University level. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f59317f3b41acb0a2fe8af6ca4ab9d7d.mp4 9c9e5c4d2b29714132ab800f03c4fced https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c86875a4a0c8e57550fd78bd306ce247.pdf 9ac450b7f1a2938f891774d05ad63bf2 PDF Text Text Benson, Jerry Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Jerry Benson Length of Interview: (1:42:02) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Jerry Benson of Spring Lake, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. So Jerry, begin at the beginning–– where and when were you born?” Lafayette Township, Gratiot County. Interviewer: “In what state?” 8.28.26. Interviewer: “That’s in Michigan?” Yeah, in Michigan. Interviewer: “Now did you grow up in that area?” No, not really. In order to clarify some of the details, my mother–– Marianne Ray Benson–– and there were five of us: Harold, Reba, Earl, myself, [and] Arlene–– but she was diagnosed with TB when I was going on two and she was pregnant with Arlene and the family was all split up. Our father couldn’t take care of us, so for a couple of years there, I don’t know where I lived. [With] friends and relatives, along with the brothers and sisters. When I was going on four, I went to live with my grandmother–– my mother’s side of the family–– and my two uncles. So that kind of clarifies where I grew up. (2:15). Interviewer: “And was this on a farm? In a town?” Well originally grandmother and Harry and Luther–– [my] uncles–– lived in Flint. They lost their home in ‘29 [and] moved back to Ithaca and went to work on a dairy farm. Then, spring of 1934, shops began to work a little more, you know, four or five months out of the year, so they �moved back down by Mount Morris. And especially Harry always wanted a farm. He loved animals. They rented 40 acres and it was on the Flint River. They started the dairy herd. We had chickens, and pigs, and two or three cows, and a team of horses. So basically in 1934 is when we started living on a farm. Over the years, the farms got bigger and they were able to buy their own property just north of Morris. So all through the depression and pre-war it was farming because they still worked in the shop. So, I had my work to do. (4:49). Interviewer: “So you learned how to milk cows?” Well that’s one thing that I really didn’t do. My job was cleaning barns, feeding the chickens, and the pigs, and horses–– that kind of stuff. Interviewer: “Now, do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” Oh, yes. Yes. That particular day it was very mild. At lunchtime Harry said, “I think it’d be a good day to take care of the horses.” So I got the horses out tied up in front of the barn, heated up some water, and we sponged them, combed, trimmed, [and] played with the horses. And I don’t know, it must have been around four o’clock or 4:30 and grandma, she’d come out the back door and hollered, “It’s on the radio. The Japanese are bombing Pearl Harbor.” “Where’s Pearl Harbor?” Life completely changed. (6:20). Interviewer: “So what changed for you?” Well of course, almost immediately, industry–– all the shops–– Chevrolet, AC Spark Plug, Buick–– everyone–– war production. Longer hours. And since they had waived the seniority at Buick in Flint, a lot of the work fell to me. Consequently, I missed a lot of school–– especially in the spring and then the fall–– harvest. Go to school, fall asleep. But, that was the condition of everyone. Interviewer: “Were you able to keep up with school?” Oh, yeah. I graduated from high school. Interviewer: “And when did you graduate?” ‘44. That was the spring of ‘44, when I was 17. But in that time period, the shops farmed out war production to whoever could manage. [The] neighbor across the street–– his name was Harold Brophy–– was head of maintenance [at] Paterson Building in Flint. AC Spark Plug [had] come out [and] done some work on a little chicken coop and set up four lathes for machine gun barrels. Well, I went to school with his son and that was very interesting. (8:33). When I got my work �done, especially on a Sunday afternoon, he taught me how to run lathes, turning machine gun barrels. At the same time, Glenn Montague–– big farm down the road–– turned one of his buildings into a machine shop, and there were probably millions of one/two men basement shops or rod shops that were able to manufacture more goods during the war. Even in school–– the shop class–– they brought in big crates of model airplanes. It was solid wood and our job was to sand, glue everything together according to instruction, and paint–– put the details on–– and when you finished so many, you were allowed to keep one for yourself. (10:04). Well, my next older brother, he joined the Navy–– Navy Air Force–– and he was home on leave and came to visit and he saw this model hanging there. He explained–– after I told him where I got it: a shop class–– and he said, “They use those for identification.” He said they hang all kinds–– different countries and different models and everything. Various heights, turn off the lights, turn the fans off, take a penciled spotlight, pick out an airplane [and] you have five seconds to identify it. I can imagine schools all over the country took part in that operation–– even the stores. There was a store in Saranac––and I think it was probably Lehrer–– where these people started a factory in Saranac wiring switches because Lehrer was into instruments–– and even high school students could work so many hours a week in this place, wiring switches. (12:10). They closed the roller rink in Mount Morris, turned it into a machine shop, and years later–– in 1967, and even before that when I was working–– a vendor by the name of George Beamer had a shop here in Perrysburg that I went to work for. It turned out that he had the shop in Mount Morris that turned the roller rink. Interviewer: “Now to go back to your story, when you finished high school, did you have the option of getting a deferment from the draft working in the war industry or on the farm?” No. No. When I was drafted I went into the Army. I’ll tell you, there was an attitude that covered the whole population that you would do most anything to serve the country. I went into the service, had my basic training––Camp Fannin, northeast Texas. (14:03). Interviewer: “Now when did you start training?” December. Interviewer: “Of ‘44.” Which was–– they really concentrated on the basic training, at that time. But one incident–– General Stilwell was in China. I don’t know if he was relieved, but he was back in the States–– inspection going on–– a live-fire obstacle course, and he was grumbling and growling about that weren’t putting forth any effort, or much effort, and it just so happened that four of us went on the obstacle course with Stilwell. His nickname was “Vinegar Joe.” Well-named. Then when basic was over, we shipped overseas and landed in Leyte in the Philippines. �Interviewer: “So how long did basic training last?” I’m not sure whether it was about 12 weeks. 10 to 12 weeks. Interviewer: “And aside from the obstacle course, what else were they teaching you in basic training?” Well, practically everything. You were trained in machine guns, mortars, rifles–– different kinds of rifles–– machine guns and of course, artillery. They had artillery, mortars, and so on and so forth. It was very concentrated. (16:13). Interviewer: “And how did the drill sergeants treat you?” As I remember, very good. But of course, if you fell down or lagged behind on a 20/25/30 mile march, you got poked in the ribs. They said, “Come on. Get up and move.” It was very, very concentrated. [We] had sessions with gas masks and so on and so forth. Interviewer: “How did they get you from Michigan down to Texas, and from Texas to the west coast?” Train. Interviewer: “And do you remember anything about those train rides?” Not much. It was all very muddled. You take train cars back with other fellas and of course, I’m only able to play cards. It was very concentrated. I don’t have much memory of these trips on a train. But, military trains have, more or less, the right of way. I spent–– I don’t know–– a few days on Angel Island, San Francisco, loaded us on a Liberty, landed in Hawaii for about 18 hours, and made a few circles in the Pacific–– staying away from the submarines–– and landed on Leyte. (18:26). Interviewer: “Now when did you arrive in Leyte?” I don’t know, to tell you the truth. Interviewer: “The war was still going on though?” Well, very low in the Philippines. There was some pop-up, but it was basically–– the actual, big fighting was on Okinawa. But the Japanese–– it was just remnants because the Japanese Army left in the various islands. Shortly after we landed–– just outside of Tacloban–– we worked that �detail. We were pouring cement, making [the] floor for a building. They set up a field kitchen on-site. Two individuals, right ahead of me, waiting to get served food, [and] the servers recognized this guy was Japanese in American clothing. He was kind of hiding his face and whatnot. Well, that turned into a wrestling match for a few minutes and at that time, the Philippine Army, which was comprised of a lot of kids–– teenagers–– reporting on the looks of these remnants of the Japanese. Which was maybe 25 or 30 in a group–– or maybe bigger–– raiding villages for water, food, whatever they could find. (20:38). Interviewer: “Now at this point, what unit were you assigned to?” Well on Leyte I was assigned to a temporary [unit] which I don’t know. Interviewer: “So you didn’t have a permanent assignment yet?” No, I didn’t have a permanent assignment. Then they’d get reports of a raid, and then of course, with the Filipinos, there’s guys–– interpreters–– they would be armed. We’d try to run down these Japanese, which a couple of times, we’d run into the line of fire. But, they didn’t have much equipment. The Japanese didn’t have much equipment because there was no supply to them. Whatever they could steal or find. I heard that they would even dig up where a battle had taken place to find ammunition or any kind of equipment. So there were just a couple of times, I’d run into live fire on these patrols. (22:08). One very interesting time, and I don’t know where it was–– probably on Leyte someplace–– we met up with an Australian Ranger, mechanized. They had a tank and a couple half-tracks and other trucks. We loaded up onto them and rolled down to the ocean, and we had time to wash our feet in the ocean. We have our K-Rations and they turned the radio on the tank and Tokyo Rose–– picked up Tokyo Rose. She played a couple records and she went over her propaganda spiel, which was mostly aimed at the troops at Okinawa. She named off about three different officers, by name, and their units, but her main theme was, “Surrender now. You do not have a chance. If you want to see your family again, surrender.” Then she’d play another record [and] start in again, mostly the same theme. I lay there on the beach [and] after all this was finished, they turned the radio off. Oh my goodness. Talk about peaceful. Stars looked like you could reach up and touch them, moonlight on the ocean, just paradise. (24:30). Shortly after that, we landed on Panay permanent assignment. 108th Infantry, 40th Division, and assigned the headquarters section. The date, you know, it was the middle of spring, and we made one big patrol across the peninsula of Panay. And every day, where the camp was set up, a coconut grove across the bay. One day, there were three of us up on the ridge of the camp, and [we] heard some rustling down the ravine. This woman comes crawling up out of the brush and in perfect English she said, “I wash clothes for food.” Her arms were all scared. She had fresh cuts and whatnot. We gave her band-aids and patched her up–– stopped the bleeding–– and she was so inquisitive. (26:26). She wanted to know our names, where we lived, what kind of houses we lived [in], what the cities were like–– the towns in the �country–– and she and her husband were school teachers in Manila and he joined the Philippine Army when the Japanese invaded the Philippines, and she fled Manila and hid out in the jungle. I suppose [sounds like deleches] as a part of the guerilla group, reporting Japanese and so on and so forth. Then wound up, all through the war, caring for orphans–– children–– and even at that time she still hadn’t–– four children. I think the youngest one was probably four to maybe sixyears-old. Well, we gathered up some clothes, some K-Rations, [and] away she went. (28:03). Comes back the next day and we put her in contact with our Lieutenant, and this went on for a couple weeks, and she had just asked questions. “What was America like?” Just couldn’t get enough of it. But, she hadn’t heard anything about her husband for a couple years and, of course, they made contact with the officials in town–– upper city and whatnot–– and she invited four of us to her camp. She said, “Chicken dinner.” Well, I’m not sure whether it was chicken or not, but we had permission to go. Just a couple three days after that, they came to pick her up, and she gave me a picture she carried all through the war. And there was kind of a mutual feeling between her and I because there was an instant where some of the other fellows started making rude remarks about sex for food and this-and-that kind of crap. I and another fellow defended her and there was kind of a mutual feeling between her and I when she left. Big sister, little brother. She was, I suppose, maybe one of maybe hundreds or thousands of the Filipinos that lived through that action situation through the war, and she was just absolutely wonderful. (30:58). And of course, all this time while we were making practice landings and getting acquainted with various ships and whatnot–– we knew what was coming. It must have been [the] first part of June, I would say, comes the inspection. Each company had an officer or a group of officers, but in our company, after the inspection, this officer hollered, “Okay you guys, gather around.” (32:00). Of course, the opening remarks I can remember were congratulations, appraisal, lasting experience, and accomplishments and then, I quote, “This division has received its orders. Invade southern Honshu Island, Japan proper, but I can’t tell you the date.” He went on a little bit further. He said, “If you have a will and you wish to change it, do it right now. If you want to make a will, do it right now.” He said, “We have very strong reason to believe that every person you meet is your enemy, whether it is an old man, a younger woman, a little girl, or a little boy. Come at you with a pitchfork, you know what to do.” Then, after a couple of remarks, he said, “The casualty rate is estimated for this division, to be 75 to 80 percent.” (34:12). Well, then we loaded. Of course, right after that, they dropped the bomb. Theoretically, the war was over, but to me, and a lot of other people, the war didn’t end until about December of ‘45. On the way to–– which turned out to be Korea–– we’d run into a typhoon. I don’t know exactly when that was. Maybe it was the first part of August–– I’m not sure. Or, exactly how long it lasted [that] we were in that storm. But I immediately volunteered for KP because sitting in the cargo deck–– LST–– is not very inviting–– or wasn’t to me. This one night, things got rougher and rougher. I got up, I went up to the galley. No one was there. The waves were probably about 25/30 feet high. I got a sack of potatoes, five pounds of raisins, a couple of life vests, wedged myself in a corner and rode the storm out. (36:07). One instance in that storm–– if you can imagine a ship rolling over, the port side would be underwater. There was a porthole up here. [It] rolled over �and on the way down there was the bow of an LST so close that I could see the individual rough spots on the ball doors. I thought, “Oh my God. This is it.” It went underwater, rolled back again, it disappeared. After all this was over, I told an officer about it. Apparently no one had seen this other LST except me, and I swear, I was not dreaming because it was too real. Then we landed in Southern Korea–– Pusan. Interviewer: “Now, I want to go back here a little bit. The bombs are dropped in early August of ‘45. So you would have your talk from the officer before that, and there were some big typhoons in late August and September. So, you didn’t stay too long in the Philippines after the end of the war?” No. Interviewer: “So you land in Pusan. Now what happens?” Well when we landed in Korea there were three of us assigned to [an] officer and his driver–– a trailer. We started up the East Coast and what he was doing was meeting with Korean officials, taking over buildings for the troops, and it was mostly where the Japanese offices and airfields and everything [were]. (38:57). We made that trip up the East Coast, back down the center, and then just got back to the company. In the process of gathering up the Japanese–– because apparently they wanted the officers for interrogation. A lot of it, I think, was–– I’m assuming–– was charges against humanity because most of the kamikaze pilots and places originated–– as far as I heard–– was in Korea. Dive-bombing and crashing into ships, and what had happened in China and so on and so forth. Even the people in Korea. (40:14). They would construct 14/15 year olds into the Army in Korea over the years–– and I think I can find his picture. Yeah. That’s one of them, but that’s not the one that I was really looking for. But anyways, this one particular individual–– was his uniform–– who was cleared and eventually wound up as our mechanic and engineer. But, that was kind of a trying situation in that time length–– rounding up these Japanese, taking them to an airfield, and I suppose the engineers put up a fence and made this compound, and the company I was in was detailed as guard. It was 12 hours on, 12 hours off and this runs through November and December. (42:36). We’d thrown up a windbreak on the corners and I had just finished a patrol and stopped to get my hands warm, and some officers stepped around and accused three of us sleeping while guarding. Up for court-martial. It doesn’t make any difference what you said, you were guilty. Breaking rank and they charged me a carton of cigarettes. At the same time–– due to discharging the old-timers from the time the war ended–– was still going on and the company was down to about 52/53 men, and the Army put out what we called a “big red apple”: [to] join the regular Army and if you were in the infantry, you will not be put back into the infantry and you can choose your tour. (44:02). Well, this court-martial– – spending out in the cold for 12 hours at a time, and living in a shack–– it was four of us that joined the regular Army. We’d come home on leave, report back to Fort Sheridan, which is just �north of Chicago, and were there for just a few days. They loaded us up and when the sun came up, we were going west. I wound up 45-miles from where I started from in Korea. The boat was assigned to the 6th Combat Engineers. When I reported to him, the Major looked at me and said, “What the hell am I going to do with you?” He shuffles some papers on his desk. He said, “Have you ever handled dynamite and TNT?” I said, “Yes.” “You know what a bulldozer is?” I said, “Yes.” “Okay. I need a demolition man–– dozer operator.” I wound up about 180/185 miles south of Seoul and about the same distance down from Pusan. There was a fishing village about 14/15 miles on the coast of this old Japanese airfield. Detached company, and I was about to work with another fella at a rock quarry drilling holes, setting off the charge, breaking up the big pieces, piling it up into a big pile. (46:52). The main project was building roads and bridges. Get loaded up and go up on the mountain, widen the turns–– the hairpin turns–– up on the side of the mountain and this and that, and that was the start with the engineers. Lieutenant came by one day, took me up towards the coast which was about four miles away, up into a big hill. They had already surveyed [and] had flags set up. Started up here, cleared everything off because you couldn’t have brush and stumps and logs. Built four terraces down the side of the hill. It was enough room [for] 26 or 27 houses–– or cabins–– and that was for dependent housing because they were moving an infantry regiment onto the airfield. (48:41). When I finished that, I and another fella were introduced to a Korean contractor–– they turned all the building processes over to the Koreans–– and we were supposed to take this contract with Seoul and he would gather building material. Well, we dropped him off at a hotel and two of these fellows that I was in the Philippines with–– and enlisted in the regular Army–– were assigned to the 7th Recon Patrol in the 38th parallel. So, we stayed with the 7th Recon at night, picked up the contractor in the morning–– he’d come out of the bank with two big suitcases of money–– and it was all practically salvaged materials: doors, windows and paint, nails, and boards of all kinds of stuff. We’d get a load, drive south, get unloaded, and turn around and make another trip. (50:20). Interviewer: “Now did you have a Jeep or a truck?” Truck. 6x6. And of course, one mountain range in this trip–– 24 hairpin turns to get across this mountain. At the bottom, in the valleys, there was quite a wide river and a stake on each side–– Smith stake–– lined up, aimed for the stake on the other side. There’s kind of a rapids across the river. You had to ford the river. High water made it a little difficult. And to tell you the truth, I don’t know how many trips I made, but the last one was during a blizzard. It started when we were up in Seoul and south of Seoul was a little town–– here’s that picture I was looking for [of] the soldier constructed into the Army–– and this village was quite unique. (52:06). The gates on each end of the village–– big structure with tunnels through this building. This was the winter of ‘46/’47 and blizzard warnings. Of course you always carried extra gas–– 20 gallons [of] extra gas in five gallon cans–– there was an MP post at this village, and fuel depot. I talked to him about another 30 gallons of gasoline and we got 15 miles from this fishing village–– probably 30 miles to camp–– [and] run out of gas. I knew there was an MP post at this village and both of us, �along with the Koreans that were riding in the truck. Severe frostbite. But, they picked up the truck and we had a few days off during this blizzard or storm and the government bought lumber from a monastery up in the mountains–– which I have some pictures of this monastery–– the buildings. I only made one trip to that place, but there are some interesting pictures. Beautiful place. (54:33). Interviewer: “So you have your Buddha statue there and the pagoda style.” Yeah. But that was the big project–– build dependent housing. Or the Koreans did. We supplied the material and got them the transportation. At the same time, they had a truck going to Pusan. All the same distance, all the material there and others into Central and whatnot. In the summer of ‘47, towards fall, we’d go on red alert. “Carry your arms.” Well, these two fellas that were in the 7th Recon that we stayed with overnights–– everyday it was getting more nasty, more fights, things were getting quite vicious–– and the last time I was up there, I got firsthand reports: the attitudes, the North Koreans. Of course, the same with the American troops. (56:11) I began to think because I was really, seriously considering making the military a career. Through all of that sanction I thought, “Well, there’s gotta be a better life.” So, it was kind of touch-and-go there for a while. But, I decided to give up the military and I came home. I got my discharge and I told other people, I wasn’t exactly sure when but be prepared because I think we’re going into another war before long. People laughed and said no, but it did happen. And I often wonder what happened to a lot of these people that we made friends with. It was quite interesting. (57:52). Interviewer: “Now, during the time when you were in Korea, there was also a fair amount of domestic unrest. Did you see any of that?” Yep. There were a number of cases where it was quite violent, all the way through from ‘45 to ‘47, and I don’t really know what the cause was, but when we were rounding up Japanese with the help of different Koreans there was one instant [that] a Korean official–– he must’ve been quite a powerful position–– that we worked with. He invited about eight of us to dinner. Of course, we got instructions on how to act, what the greetings were formally, and who’s Korean and so on and so forth. (59:31). A very long table and they sat there on cushions and about halfa-dozen girls serving. I really couldn’t tell you what most of this food was. I know there was fish, cabbage, and who knows. Some of it was so sour, my gosh, you could smell it six feet away. And of course, sake. I was doing pretty good on the soup, till I ran into a chunk of hide about that big–– squared–– that still had the hair on it. But, that was one session with the Koreans we’d worked with rounding up all of these prisoners. There were some very interesting times. This fella here, he could speak very good English and I think he said when this picture was taken, he was probably 15. (1:01:08). �Interviewer: “We have taken your story pretty well most of the way through the time in Korea. I have a couple of miscellaneous questions for you.” Yeah. Interviewer: “One of them actually goes back to the Philippines. I asked you, before the interview, were you ever injured in the service? You told me a story about that.” Well, this particular time, I think it was Leyte Island, when we were getting reports of Japanese raiding villages. Come under fire, I roll off of a trail, down a bank and that’s where [I] landed on this bush. Splinters. They pulled so many pieces out of my back. Hell, that was basically the only injury. But I was over there long enough that I got a touch of malaria, which eventually wore out over the years. (1:02:54). Interviewer: “Had they given you medicine to prevent malaria?” Oh, yeah. Interviewer: “So you took Atabrine or something like that?” Yep. Atabrine. It’ll turn you yellow. Interviewer: “But it still didn’t keep the malaria away in the end.” Yeah. Water purification pills and whatnot. In the infantry, you felt like a pack mule. Especially in the headquarters section where you had field phone coils and telephone wires. Interviewer: “When you were with the headquarters section, what was your job with headquarters?” Well it was mainly runners and communication–– written communication. In a combat situation, one company would be supported by another. They had their method and officers had to be in communication at all times. So in headquarters section, many times, your job was to take a message from your company over to another company which might be from here to across the street. Maybe 100 yards or 200 yards or whatnot. And that’s basically what headquarters was. And this group picture right here–– this fella here, was our interpreter and guide. This was in my [unintelligible] division time period. (1:05:09). Interviewer: “Now, what kind of relationship was there between the Americans and the Filipinos?” �I would say a good relationship–– what little I had personally had. This fella right here, our guide–– interpreter–– for our company. This is headquarters section. When we left the Philippines [and] boarded ship, he gave me this knife–– an old family knife–– wooden scabbard– – which was mainly built for cutting coconut off–– and coconuts and bananas. A homemade wooden scabbard. So, the relationship between this fella right here and myself–– he presented me with this old family knife. Interviewer: “And it has a carved head on it. It’s got a snake head or something–– animal of some kind.” Yeah. I’m not sure what that represents. Interviewer: “Now, when you were in Korea and you were making that tour of Korea with the officer and going up and down, what were you seeing? What did Korea look like to you?” (1:07:06). Well, we would stay fairly isolated outside of a town–– or a city–– but of course there were curious onlookers that would gather and look us over. Mainly, his guards are guarding his equipment because he would sign papers and whatnot and he had a big storage box and trailer that he stored all these documents in. But there were a couple of occasions–– very close to a town–– that there would be a great number of Koreans [that] would gather around–– and it was hard to tell. It was kind of a nervous time. Dangerous because we really couldn’t communicate except waving your hand. Interviewer: “So you didn’t have a Korean interpreter with you then?” No. But, this officer could speak Korean and Japanese and I think he acted as a driver and a guard–– bodyguard–– so our instruction was to keep our eyes open and only let people so close to the trailer. So, that time period it was kind of a–– I don’t really know how to describe it. (1:09:26). Interviewer: “Now, during the day would you go into the towns, or did you just stay outside of them the whole time?” We’d circle a town, we’d sometimes drive through a smaller town, but Bocian, he would drive around and instead of getting into a town because of the Japanese attitude–– they’re very, very aggressive in all cases, and you never knew what you might run into as retaliation or whatever, you know, in a crowd. So, it was a very cautious trip. �Interviewer: “But the Japanese were basically cooperating though, right? I mean, they were staying in their barracks or whatever.” Well, in Korea, outside of the officers, the enlisted men were mainly construction, mechanics, fetch-and-carry. The pilots, that airfield, and the officers were typically Japanese, as this picture of this young fella [that] was constructed into the Army. He wound up as a–– sort-of–– a mechanic and he said he hated every minute of it, but at least he got something to eat. As far as my impression of the Korean people, [they] were treated like slaves and dirty dogs, even into this time period. This is a typical Korean family. (1:12:30). Interviewer: “A woman carrying things on her head and the man with the two buckets on the yoke.” They had very little as far as clothing, commodities, That’s very typical. Interviewer: “Yeah. And I see you got ox-carts over here. Someone holding a pitchfork over there.” The Japanese–– my impression–– was that they took practically anything that was worth any value. Of course, some of the enlisted men had married because they–– here again, I don’t know when the Japanese took over South Korea. Interviewer: “They took over Korea back around the turn of the century, so they’d been there a while.” They had been there for years, and there was a mix of families–– Korean and Japanese–– over the years and that was one of the problems when we were sorting in 1945. So many of the men would try to escape and get back to their wives and families, which to I and my fellow in the company, really didn’t know [that] our orders were to round-up the Japanese and hold them. (1:14:22). Sometimes it turned into a situation that you may shoot above somebody’s head or at their feet to control the situation. But, most of the Korean people were–– situated in the situation that they were–– very quiet and reserved. The common people like this couple right here–– which I have no idea who they were. There was a big rice paddy not too far from this airfield and they were probably out gathering firewood and this and that, and looking for food and whatnot. (1:15:34). Interviewer: “Did you have problems with people stealing from you? From the camps or anything else?” �Not really. Of course, it was an MP post outside of the village–– it was a fishing village–– which controlled traffic on the road, and along the ocean that was very similar to areas along Lake Michigan. Wooded, high sand dunes, and made travel by foot difficult. I supposed that there was occasionally kerosene [and] gasoline and stuff like that that may have been–– Interviewer: “But you didn’t have a lot of trouble?” No. No we didn’t, as far as I was concerned or my experience. There wasn’t any trouble with the Korean people. And when the government threw contract work like this dependent housing deal– – which was a big one for that particular area–– the Korean people welcomed that. It was very, very friendly. But, of course, the American people and the servicemen, we were very generous. We’d hand out goods here and there, donate to the elders in this fishing village, pass out odds and ends–– old clothing–– and so on and so forth. It was easy to make friends. Such as that one picture of that one Korean boy, and that fella was conscripted into the Japanese Army. And this monastery, these people were just super nice. (1:18:29) Interviewer: “So let’s kind of go back now in your stories. When do you go home from Korea?” Fall of ‘47. My enlistment ran out. Interviewer: “And then did you go back home to where you had been living before you left?” Yeah. I went back to the farm, but we’d had a conversation [that] they’d gotten along without me. I went to work, I don’t know, a year after–– ‘48. I got a job at Chevrolet in Flint. My service days changed my attitude. I did do quite a bit of work on the farm and, you know, planning the harvest time, but I was changed. I didn’t want to be tied down night and day, taking care of animals in the morning, taking care of them at night, and so on and so forth. I wanted to see the world. (1:20:38). So, in ‘48, my older brother had a big farm at St. Johns–– of course married and had a family and I visited him. He was mostly a cash-crop, although he did have a big flock of chickens and sold eggs. But, he offered me a partnership in his farm, so I left my grandmother and uncles and moved to St. Johns. And at that time, my younger sister–– our brother had left his insurance to our younger sister and nephew. I went to see my sister–– at Michigan State–– met her roommate, and there is such a thing as love at first sight. So, I spent my spare time in East Lansing. My sister got quite disgusted with me because she said, “You never come to see me.” And I said, “Well, you’re my sister.” So, in fall of ‘49 I proposed and she accepted. We were married in January–– the 15th. (1:23:01). Interviewer: “Now, did you stay on the farm in St. Johns or do you move on?” �No. When we got married we got an apartment in East Lansing–– one-room apartment in a private converted home, right across from campus. She said, “I’ll quit. You go to school.” I said, “No. You’re not going to give up a scholarship.” She had a four-year paid scholarship and I got a job at Olds, which was really quite fascinating to me being [in] a big factory. More experience than the three months I worked at Chevrolet, and I kind of took an interest in what was happening. My job was on the assembly line on suspensions, and that was kind of fascinating–– I asked questions. And Oldsmobile had suggestion boxes and after a time, I wrote a couple of suggestions. Matter of fact, I think I wrote a half-a-dozen and was accepted a couple of times and I think that put me on notice of the foreman, and eventually I made repairman. (1:25:04). But, at that time, the union was really pushing for 100 percent union. Virginia and I, we talked things over and when she finished college–– boy, at that time we really didn’t know what we were going to do. But, her father was a recording engineer at United Sound in Detroit. He’d worked in radio and sound systems practically all of his life and then I will say ‘49–– or maybe even ‘48–– they were developing magnetic tape. Being a sound engineer in the recording studio, of course, he was working on tape machines–– tape duplicators–– to make a copy of a master tape. So, in that time period, we’d kind of come to an agreement [that] when she finished college, we’d move back to Saranac–– her hometown–– and I would do the mechanical work, he’d do the electronic work, we’d build the tape duplicator. That kind of gelled a plan for us, but, at the same time, working at Olds, I got into an argument with a union steward. I said, “Look, I need every penny I can lay my hands on. I’m not gonna be here, only a few short months now.” I got transferred into [the] inspection department. (1:27:53). And, then when the time came, within a couple weeks of her graduation and our planned leaving of Lansing–– or East Lansing–– I gave notice. [The] foreman said, “Are you sure?” And I said, “Yes.” Well, two days before my last day I was scheduled, three tech guys were called into the office. They were interviewing me. School. Service. Various jobs and whatnot. This guy said, “General Motors is starting a program called ‘Quality Control.’ They’re taking individuals from various departments in all plants, all over the country, and forming this program so that everyone is on the same page of how to do this, and what to do and so on and so forth in inspection, and your name was on the list.” I had already made a commitment with my father-in-law, so I turned it down. Who knows? If I had just stayed at General Motors. (1:30:01). Interviewer: “So did you then go into business with your father-in-law?” Yeah. Yeah. We set up a shop in his basement–– in Saranac–– I did the mechanical work, he did the electronic work. But, of course, he couldn’t compete with Amphax and [the] big, major companies that were doing the same thing. But, when the tape duplicator was finished [and] tested, he loaded up, took it back to Detroit, and put it to work. That’s when I started my career in the tool and die business. [It] got around town–– what we were doing–– and I got a job at a local factory there in Saranac–– shredder factory–– making all types of sprayers–– hand- �sprayers, so on and so forth. It was the beginning of my career in the tool and die business. (1:31:34). Interviewer: “Did you eventually get a job over in West Michigan then? We’re in Spring Lake now, how long have you been here?” Well, we moved over here in ‘66. I worked at a couple–– three–– different places in the fifties and sixties over in Saranac. I worked 13-years at Lake Odessa Machine and they had a tool room–– repair [and] build dies, stamping plant, and I got to know George Beamer and other people [from] different plants that were doing work for us–– we had too much work–– especially with new dies. When we moved over–– actually, my last job, in Ionia County, was at Dow Smith making fiberglass Corvette bodies. My job in the engineering department was calling on vendors, writing progress reports on jobs that Dow Smith farmed out. I got a call by Muskegon– – North Muskegon–– to come down the highway and see Falcon Tool over here, facing the highway. I stopped to say hello and before I got there, I had a job. (1:33:40). Interviewer: “Now, there was one more story we left out that I want to go back too. Your daughter has mentioned that when you were driving a bulldozer in Korea, you almost went off a cliff.” Well, a guy by the name of Joe Miller and I were–– they wanted us to blast rock and they found another older rock quarry so that they didn’t have to transport rock from one to where they were building. So, we loaded up the dozer and went over. And it was an old one and I was up on top of this cliff, pushing the dirt and debris and brush over the edge, and I pushed over a load of dirt and when I stopped the dozer wiggled around like this. Between this track and the body and about that much of the track, it was hanging out over air, off the cliff. The right hand track was hanging off about this far–– if I had been over another, probably three feet, I would have dumped off the cliff. I have a track machine, so when you put it in reverse [and] let out the clutch, it has a tendency to tip forward. I’m sitting there, “Oh my god.” Joe didn’t reverse, played with the clutch to inch the damn thing back–– [it] was out, rocking. I would say I came about that far from diving off a 60-foot cliff. But, they never opened it because of the rock and transportation and the conditions. It really wasn’t worth it. But, that dozer was the biggest one that Caterpillar made. (1:36:50). Interviewer: “Now, to close this out then, as you think back to the time that you spent in the service, what do you think you learned from it or how did it affect you?” Well, one thing I learned [was] how to get along with people. That was the main thing. Because all through school, I had a lot of work to do at home and I did not partake in much at school as far as sports. I guess there were a couple of times [like] a class play–– minor things–– but very, �very low activity in school, or in any other area with people my age until I went into the service. And that was one of the big items to get used to–– different kinds of people and how to get along with them. And there were times there were arguments–– well, I guess it was still in the process [of] when I volunteered for KP to get away from just sitting around. But, that’s one of the things–– attitude, or change in lifestyle–– and observing the way [of] officers (1:39:37). I will say this, the officers I served under were all very good except one and he was newly commissioned–– all spit-and-polish–– always jumping on people for not saluting or having their shirt or coat open. But, attitude makes a big difference in life. But, I would say that was one of the big things that I learned in the military. But, when people said, “Jump,” you jumped, even if you didn’t like it. You learned to accept the responsibility, which carried on through my life in the tool and die business. Getting along with–– especially when you're a supervisor and instructing people [and] teaching people to run machinery and how to do this. They way you went about it. [I] took a lesson from some of the officers–– some of the ways they treated people and how they–– instead of giving them an order–– just becomes a conversation. That’s what I call “learning from life.” Make the best of it. (1:41:43). Interviewer: “Well, the whole thing makes for a pretty good story, so I’d just like to close this out by thanking you for taking the time to share it today.” It was interesting. (1:42:01). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BensonG2297V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Benson, Gerald Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03 Title A name given to the resource Benson, Gerald (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Jerry Benson was born on August 28, 1926 in Lafayette Township, Michigan. He graduated high school in 1944 and was unable to get any type of deferment from the service. Benson was then drafted and began his twelve weeks of Army Basic Training in December of 1944 in Texas. He was then shipped from Angel Island, California, to Leyte in the Philippines after the fighting had moved onto Okinawa. While awaiting assignment in Leyte, Benson went on search patrols for any remaining Japanese troops left behind in the Philippines. He was then assigned to the Headquarters Section of the 108th Infantry, 40th Division, making practice landings in preparation for the invasion of Honshu Island, or mainland Japan. After the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan and it surrendered unconditionally, Benson was shipped out in December of 1945 to Busan, Korea. Benson was then transferred into the 6th Combat Engineers as a demolitions expert and bulldozer operator, tasked with building up infrastructure outside Seoul. After serving in Korea with the Army engineers and serving out his enlistment, Benson decided to leave the service and was shipped back to the United States in the fall of 1947. He then returned to the family farm before going to work for Chevrolet Motor Company in Flint, Michigan, in 1948. Wanting to see more of the world, Benson spent some time helping his brother as a business partner for his own farm and visited his sister at Michigan State University where he met his future wife, marrying in January of 1949. Afterwards, he and his wife moved to East Lansing where she finished college and he continued to work in a local factory. Following his wife’s graduation, Benson was interviewed due to his skills in the automobile industry and was offered a job at General Motors, but opted to go into business with his father-in-law. Eventually, competition from large corporations urged Benson to seek other employment, so he entered the tool and die industry. He went on to work several other industrial jobs before settling into Spring Lake, Michigan. Reflecting upon his service, Benson believed the Army taught him how to work together with other, different people since he did not have such prior experience through school or sports teams. He also concluded that personal attitude played an important role in how he and his peers conducted their lives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ae0891bdda70e6f4614c0220a08573ce.mp4 df356c9ef5a2d2b9c09290a6bd3f5a4b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a29e8359db0036ba71f668a3bac39a3d.pdf aa9d0f862cb882c9100e5ad907a0aa04 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Conflicts Served In: Afghanistan, Iraq Interviewee’s Name: Jeff Baldwin Length of Interview: 41:59 Interviewed by: Cody LaRoy Rollins Transcribed by: Sam Noonan Interviewer: “Hello, this is a joint project between the Grand Valley State Veterans History project and the WKTV Voices. My name is Koty LeRoy Rollins with the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project and I’m here with Jeff Baldwin from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Alright, let’s start off — what was your life like before you joined the military?” Pretty normal. I’d grown up as a kid [in a] small town. You know, just always playing, going to school, you know. Typical, I guess you would say. Interviewer: “Did you join [the military] to get out, or?” No, so my grandfather — he did twenty-three years in the Army, retired… he never deployed, and then my brother — when he was in high school, he’s much older than I am, but he was always my role model — he joined the Navy, so when I was in high school I always really wanted to just follow in my brother’s footsteps and join the Navy. And then it was my senior year of high school, sitting in Home Ec class, you know, our teacher turned the TVs all on for the classroom, never done that before so when he turned the TVs on something’s wrong, and you know we could see the news and you know they kept replaying the tower falling and stuff like that, I went home and I just didn’t think the Navy was the right answer, I wanted to do more. So looking back, I should’ve joined the Navy. (laughter) But I wanted to do more for my country when that attack happened, you know I’m eighteen, nineteen years old, nothing really going on, no college, no — didn’t really care about life at that time you know, I just wanted to see what was out there and then you know, after 9/11 I just knew I had to do something so that’s what I did. (2:35) Interviewer: “Alright, and you enlisted out of Royal Oak, Michigan, right?” No, I was born in Royal Oak. I grew up in a small little town about an hour and a half south of Grand Rapids, it’s called Hartford, Michigan. I grew up there and then I graduated from a small little town called Dowagiac where I did pretty much all my high school years there, transferred like in late middle school and all of high school I was in Dowagiac and graduated in 2002, so… but yeah no, I moved out of Royal Oak when I was probably about three years old, so I was just born in Royal Oak. Interviewer: “So what year did you enlist?” 2004, I enlisted two years after high school. �Interviewer: “Okay. And what was that like? Was it a quick process, were they…?” Yeah, so you know, talked to the recruiter, got me right in. Went to Lansing, did the whole MEPS thing, the whole physical. And then I signed up to be a constructor equipment operator, basically bulldozers, anything that you can think of that’s earth-moving and heavy, that’s what I wanted to do. So the biggest facility that had the training place was Fort Leonard Wood, which is home of the military police, engineers and chemical. So it’s one of the biggest training stations for all five branches in those three classifications, so they sent me down there and I was there for basic and then did my AIT, and then in the fall of 2004 is when I went to Fort Polk, Louisiana for my five-year with 10th Mountain, but… Interviewer: “Okay. Let’s jump back a little bit — so you did boot camp and AIT in the same place?” Yes. Interviewer: “AIT being your like, job training.” Right, yup. So a lot of — there’s some units, depending on the MOS they call it … it’s one station training unit, I did basic and then I transferred to my AIT unit. So I like — for construction engineers, our basic was only six weeks for AIT. So we had eight week of basic, and then we got new drill sergeants, a whole new barracks, new location for another eight weeks, whereas the military police and the combat engineers, they’re stationed there for strictly you know, sixteen weeks with the same drill, the same location so they can do their basic and AIT all at once. Interviewer: “Okay.” So mine was separated. (5:22) Interviewer: “Was basic—” Basic was a blast. I loved basic, I absolutely loved basic. The drill sergeants, they were always preoccupied with the other kids that were… what’s the better term… they had no idea what they were getting [themselves] into and they did not like it. So they did everything they could think of to get out of the military. Interviewer: “Really?” Yes. So we had quite a few people come up pregnant during basic, we had people go AWOL during basic, we’ve had… it was really interesting, basic was a blast. Basic was fun. Interviewer: “And you were pretty straight-laced in basic, you just did what you need to do?” Do what you’re told when you’re told how you’re told to do it. There’s no questions asked, roger that. Interviewer: “Alright. So what was AIT, just like—” �AIT was a lot harder. AIT was a lot harder the drill sergeants were a lot more strict, you know our physical fitness programs, they were much more tougher, more rigorous, more consistent. Like all the time they’re just, working, exercising, constantly, constantly. But you know, not only that but we also had to know the equipment that we were working on, we had tests to do which was fun, but you know, then you also had to know the manuals of the pieces of equipment and then take tests on that as well, so… you know. Interviewer: “So you had to know the machines front and back?” Yeah. Inside and out, not only with physical being in the vehicle, you had to know the “book vehicle” as well, which could’ve been a little tedious on certain vehicles depending on you know, how the hydraulic systems operate cause some don’t operate the same. Interviewer: “Okay. How many vehicles did you have to get trained in?” (7:24) For AIT I think there as eight. If I recall… Interviewer: “So you’re learning a new one every week?” Yes. Yeah, pretty much, exactly. That’s pretty much exactly what it is. Interviewer: “That’s pretty intense. Did you receive any special combat training?” During? Interviewer: “Like during boot camp and AIT?” I mean just your basic stuff, I mean you know, just a little bit more intense than what you see in the movies but pretty much the same concept. Interviewer: “So you’re just like — basic rifle firing, that sort of thing?” Yeah, you know they’re gonna make you be able to run five miles without dying, pretty much. Interviewer: “It’s kind of important.” Right. Interviewer: “So how’d you do in AIT? Did they like grade you, or?” Pretty much. But it was more like, overall kind of, you know, they gave you a couple questions on the book, and then you had to go actually jump in the vehicle and do a couple different, you know, hands-on… depending on the vehicle, like a bulldozer they wanted you to make a nice smooth pass for let’s say 100 yards — you know, with minimal bumps into it, make it as smooth as possible or make a berm, you know, twelve feet tall. You know, like a tank berm or something like that, something quick, you know, [it’ll] take probably about twenty, thirty minutes to you know — somebody that knows what they’re doing, just jump in it and just do a little hands-on exam and you’re good to go. �Interviewer: “Okay. And were these like timed, where they like, ‘You have to get this path done in—'” Depending on the vehicle it could’ve been, absolutely, yeah. Depending on the vehicle. Cause like some vehicles you know, like dump trucks — you know, there’s only one thing that it does, and it just dumps. The rest of the time it drives, so you have a driving course to do and then you have to spread a load, so you know each vehicle is a different phase you know, different test but yeah, same concepts. Interviewer: “Guess I never really thought about dump trucks in the military but makes sense.” Oh, there’s a lot of them. Interviewer: “So after AIT you said you went on to Fort Polk?” Yup, I went to Fort Polk, I was with 4th Brigade, 10th Mountain [Division]. It was one of the newest units established in the military at the time, I was stationed down there for five years. And I did two tours, I did one tour in Afghanistan, 2006, and then I went to Iraq in 2007. And Fort Polk is home to what’s called JRTC, joint readiness training center, that’s where like, a lot of branches from the Army or units from different branches come down and train, either two weeks to thirty days inside like, a really, really rigorous jungle-ish desert atmosphere, I mean it’s — depending on the season of Louisiana, I mean it could be really, really hot or it could be really, really cold. Either way you’re in the jungle, so you know, and it’s one of the best climates to train for, you know, I mean that’s been there since Vietnam so I mean it still works today. (10:44) Interviewer: “So before we jump into your deployments I do have one question for clarification: you said 10th Mountain, why is it called that? Out of curiosity.” 10th Mountain is just one of the bigger divisions in the military, and then 10th Mountain Division is the most deployed division in the military out of all branches including the Army, it’s the most, number one deployed. Why they call it 10th Mountain I’m not a hundred percent sure, the home of 10th Mountain is based up in Fort Drum, New York, pretty close to the Canadian border where there’s a lot of rigorous hills and mountains. Interviewer: “Maybe it has something to do with that?” Right. Interviewer: “Something to look into.” Right. Interviewer: “So your deployments—” But I don’t know the whole hundred percent history of 10th Mountain Division. Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean can’t really expect you to.” �Right. (laughter) Interviewer: “So your first deployment in Afghanistan. What was that like, cause this was your first time out of the country right?” Yeah, yeah this is… so we left, I think it took us about three days to get to Bagram. So we flew just, you know, once we left we flew to like just a little couple different, like we flew into Ireland just to fill up the plane then we flew into Germany, filled up the plane then we flew into you know, jumped on the military planes and then got to the country, but we were at Kandahar for about two weeks before they sent us off to our little base camps. I don’t remember too much, like where at in the country we were at. Interviewer: “That’s okay.” But you know, we were pretty much all over the country of Afghanistan you know, basically what we called it, FOB hopping, our forward base camps, forward operating bases. We would just bounce you know, here for two weeks, here for two weeks, here… so we were all over the place. Interviewer: “What were you guys doing?” A lot of different things. Some… being a construction equipment operator, you know, there’s some roads that we would just fix, or there’s some villages that we would go and help repair roads — going, making roads up into the mountains to get the… you know, the Taliban or whatever, whoever they are now — Taliban when I was there. So basically going up you know, making roads and ditches and then the company, when I got to 10th Mountain, Fort Polk, there was about fifteen construction engineers. We were in a company of about 200 combat engineers, those guys were, you know… they look for bombs and they blow stuff up. Well we tear down buildings and we fix roads you know, that’s what… so we kind of correlate together, so pretty much you know, make roads and clear paths, basically that’s what we did. (13:58) Interviewer: “And how did the locals like you, I mean you’re fixing their infrastructure so?” Some were pretty cool, some weren’t. But we were in some really, really rural areas where you know, you can see a village probably about four or five miles away in between the mountains, you know you got a mountain here and a mountain here, and it’s just desert, flat land in between the two of you so… you know, you’re six miles away so… Interviewer: “So you never really interacted?” Never really encountered too many of ‘em, no. So you know, unless we’re like actually out on a mission and you know, and then we start either getting from you know taking fire from one side of the mountain or you know, or were there to assist another unit that’s been taking fire from some side of the mountains, but you know it’s a very, in my experience it was very weird in that country cause just how the layout was, but… I was only there for three months so… Interviewer: “Okay, so—” �So I didn’t have a whole lot of experience in that country, no. Interviewer: “Okay. And so you were different from the combat engineers, you were just doing infrastructure, road work, that sort of thing.” Pretty much. Interviewer: “Would you be like one of the forward guys since you have to build the road or would you—” You could say that, or there was times where the guys had to go up and blow debris out of the way, go in and rocks are covering the road or boulders or we’re trying to make a path through this mountain or through… and they’ll just go and blow it up and we’ll move the rubble and keep on going. Or there’s a bridge in the way and… Interviewer: “Gotta get … that.” Yeah, so we’ll see what we can do the fix the bridge or is it best just to take the bridge out and… what do we gotta do here, so… Interviewer: “So you’re sort of like quick problem-solvers, so to speak.” Oh yeah, absolutely. Gotta be. Interviewer: “So did you see much combat in Afghanistan?” Me personally no, not really. You know, when we were there for pretty much, when I was there for the first three months of the six-month time that we were there as a unit, it was pretty much more like getting the layout, feel of the land, coming over to this village helping out for a couple of a days and then just basically going around, making our presence known like, ‘Hey,’ you know, it was 2006, it was right after everything got hot in Afghanistan. But as we were there and starting to leave things got you know, picked back up but we would have really intermittent heat spurts between us and the enemy, so we’re just kind of basically hopping around, hearts and minds is basically where we were at, so… (17:02) Interviewer: “Sort of to show you know, ‘we’re not just here to destroy the place, we want to help too,’ and you’re fixing their roads and stuff.” Right, exactly. Right. Interviewer: “You weren’t paving roads though right, you were just making dirt roads.” No. Yeah, just pretty much fixing dirt roads, filling in potholes, you know, just making them nice. Interviewer: “Okay. So after that three months you went home.” Yeah. �Interviewer: “Home being back to Louisiana?” Yeah, so when I got hurt I came back to Louisiana for about a month, and then I came back to Michigan to be with my family for about two weeks, and then I went back to Louisiana. Interviewer: “Okay. If you don’t mind me asking, how did you get hurt?” It was a really, really freak accident bro. I’ll just leave it at that. Interviewer: “Alright. So you get hurt, you get sent back.” Yeah. Interviewer: “But they — you still stayed in the Army after that?” Yes. Interviewer: “What did you do after that?” So after the injury it took me about two months to recover, I stayed with my unit, I still trained, still worked, put the uniform on, still drank everyday with the guys. (laughter) Nothing really changed, except for when it did come to the work aspect, putting on the uniform — what were my limitations you know, what I wanna do compared to what the doctor in my unit… command would allow me to do are on two separate paces, so you know, like the doctor, he wanted me at home, the unit wanted me at the company on light duty, me, I wanted to be in the fuckin’ field training, working with my guys, whether we’re either at the gun range playin’ in the mud or blowing stuff up, depending on… so, but you know, it took about an additional two weeks for me to get — or two months for me to [get back to] a hundred percent. Interviewer: “Okay. But you did — you did bounce back.” Yeah. Slowly, so you know, it was just slowly integrating back into that process. Interviewer: “And what rank were you at this point? Cause I know—” E4 at this time. Interviewer: “Okay, so you had some guys under you.” Yeah, so I got to Fort Polk in 2004, so I was there for two years before we even you know, deployed to our first unit out, when we got there we knew we were gonna get deployed, cause number one we’re 10th Mountain, 10th Mountain always gets deployed, and two, we’re the newest unit, 2 10th Mountain, they’re gonna send us first — before, you know, welcome to the shit, basically, here you go, you know. It’s not hazing but it’s… hazing. (laughter) You know? Here you go. Interviewer: “I get it.” Right, so I mean it’s pretty much how it went for us, but hey, job got done and we’re back, so… Interviewer: “Alright. So after that where’d you go?” �After Afghanistan? I stayed at Fort Polk, I did — I had a four-year contract with them, so I did my two years and then so I still had another two years. So in 2007 we deployed to Baghdad, Iraq. And then we were there for thirteen months, I reenlisted probably within six months of being downrange when my window opened, so you know, I took a signing bonus and — well, reenlistment signing bonus, and did another four years. Interviewer: “That’s how they get you.” Yeah, so you know either way I was either gonna be deadlocked, stuck in Iraq for thirteen months or I could’ve stayed in the Army for another four years, got a — got a really, really nice sign bonus, tax free, and then came home, and still would’ve had a military career for another two years, so that’s what I did. Interviewer: “So what was Iraq like?” Iraq was crazy. There was no day that was the same, no two days were ever the same. Every day was different, it was very unpredictable, you always had to be on your toes. There was a lot of dumb things that we did, when it came to like FOB protection and FOB security and… so you know, safety aspects, things got a little out of control but Iraq was really… yeah, it was definitely fun but it was intense. Interviewer: “Yeah, and FOB means forward operating base.” Forward operating base, yeah. (21:38) Interviewer: “So did you move around that country as much as you did—” No, no, we… once we got in we established [operations] about a couple miles right from the heart of Sadr City you know, we’re right in the west downtown Baghdad, like west side of Baghdad, it’s hot, it’s hard. We’re right in the city and nah, we stayed there for thirteen months, I mean the few of us would go to different FOBs to help like, the infantry or the artillery or you know, these guys and this unit, this unit, we’ll go there and help like, dig trenches for electrical or water, if they don’t have good access to paved roads we’ll do our best to get ‘em better access you know, otherwise they’re just driving on very fine moondust basically. Dust particles from the sand, so… Interviewer: “Did you… so you’re doing kind of similar stuff to what you were doing in Afghanistan, just like helping infrastructure.” Right. Right, but yeah, instead of being out in the country now we’re doing everything in the city, so instead of like digging a lot of roads or paving roads, or you know, fixing roads, we’re more cleaning up trash and pushing crap off the road so that people can drive on the roads, so that we can drive on the roads, cause everything’s a hazard over there I mean, they put bombs in everything. It’s no joke. Interviewer: “That had to be a scary job then.” �You know, we’ll put concrete barriers just to, you know route traffic ‘cause I mean they have no… structure, like they don’t give a shit. They drive, you can get thirty cars driving one way and you’ll get fifteen cars driving head-on to ‘em, nobody cares. Interviewer: “That’s scary.” They don’t care. They do not care you know, or you’ll get ten cars driving one way and a guy in a donkey you know, pulling a cart of milk would drive right through the … like what are you doing? They don’t care. Interviewer: “So what were the locals like then? Cause I mean you had to interact with them.” Oh, some were cool, some didn’t like us, some were really, really awesome, the kids were really cool, if we did have the chance to interact you know, we played soccer with a lot of ‘em during certain times, we had a lot of different locals work with us, so they’d bring their kids you know, so we got to interact and… but some just didn’t like us, I mean I totally understand you know, I get it. But you know, you just gotta deal with it. Interviewer: “So did anything like super notable happen to your unit while you were there, or just a lot of trash cleaning?” (24:25) I mean… our unit, our guys were what’s on called route clearance. So their job for the whole thirteen months while we were there, our combat engineers, their guys’ job was just going around looking for roadside bombs. When I first got to — when we first got there in 07’ I got attacked, cause I was the platoon gunner for my guys, for our construction, well second platoon needed a M240 Bravo machine gun, and I’m like, ‘Well, I’ll go sir, but I’m not giving you my weapon,’ you know if you want my weapon you’re gonna take me and I’m gonna go on the mission. You know, not giving you my gun, I’m not going into this war gun-less, no, that’s not how this is working. So for about nine months I did route clearance, me personally. I wasn’t really attached to my guys per say, but there was some missions I would go on with my construction guys but I was [primarily] route clearance for the nine months I was there. Interviewer: “Okay, so that’s leaning a bit more closer to the combat engineer aspect.” Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “And did you find a lot of bombs?” We found a lot of bombs. There was one point I think when we were there, we found the most in a certain amount of time than other units that were throughout, but then again you know, we’re right in the heart of the city and it’s getting hot. Like, you know, this is when the whole eruption of Sadr city, we’re barricading Sadr city, like my guys are going into Sadr City, so it got really hot in Iraq at this time. Interviewer: “And what was that like for you?” I mean, some days were better than others but you know, I had a job to do. You know, I had guys that needed me and that I needed so, here we are together, so… �Interviewer: “So what’d you do for the last four months of the deployment?” I pretty much… for the last four I was right back with my construction guys, that’s when we went into Sadr city and we started barricading and blocking off parts of Sadr city so nobody could come in, nobody could come out. Interviewer: “Why were you guys doing that?” Cause of how insurg— you know, like all Al-Qaeda, Taliban, whatever you want to call the insurgent you know, how heavily populated they were into that area, you know, we just wanted to kind of confine them so that we can control the situation and you know, mandate the peace. Interviewer: “Was that hard to do?” Yeah! Yes, very, very hard. I mean, I don’t blame ‘em. You know, of course they’re gonna rebel and fight the fuck back, you know, I would too, but… you know, I’m there to stop you from doing what you want to do in the first place, but you know you just don’t listen and respond to the word ‘No,’ so we have to take different matters, and this is not where I want to go with it but… you know. Interviewer: “Yeah. And I can imagine, you probably had a lot of people who had nothing to do with this conflict—” Pissed off! Oh absolutely they were pissed off, I totally understand. Totally understand. I mean, I was pissed off too, like I lost some really good friends because of this shit, so… you know. (27:54) Interviewer: “So anything else in that deployment you think’s worth mentioning for this?” You know, being… I mean, what I thought was really, really cool about being over in Iraq is we got the opportunity to constantly do missions in and around the Baghdad University areas, so we got to go to the colleges and we got to see some of the tributes that Saddam Hussein built for military personnel across the world throughout… you know, history! In the last four decades, three decades. That he had monuments built, so we got to see those and you know, there’s a thing that the military does that’s called R&R, rest and recover, so we got to spend three days at … one of the kids’ palaces, that was the shit. Interviewer: “I’ll bet.” That was legit. Walk in, huge crystal, gold chandeliers, Olympic-size swimming pool in the back yard, surrounded my gorgeous palm trees and then as soon as you take a step outside you’re just in trash, like trash filled everywhere. Interviewer: “That’s so sad!” It’s like dude, whatever, you guys are… good for you guys. Interviewer: “So you just got to spend like three days in an Olympic-sized swimming pool?” �Yeah, I mean it was legit, so like you know, one of the rules was like no rank can be thrown around, but you have to keep your military bearing, but like you know, here you are having… throwing a volleyball or a football around with some major, some lieutenant colonel that you have no idea who the hell he is or what unit he’s from, but who cares, you know? Interviewer: “Yeah! It’s an experience.” Or you got some like, private, brand new kid that just showed up and has never, you know… eighteen-year-old kid that’s never seen combat before, he’s been nothing but for the last three months now, you know… he’s getting something hot to eat for the first time in three months, so he doesn’t know what to do, yeah, no, it’s cool to see that. Interviewer: “Yeah, I bet.” And definitely need that little break, but… you know. Interviewer: “How often would you get that?” For me… we got quite a few breaks, I mean we had some pretty decent luxuries, I mean it was 2007 so technology was pretty advanced especially for the military so I mean we had phones on our base camp you know, just prepaid phones and then we had internet access as well so I mean… Interviewer: “That’s pretty awesome.” Comms being back to the States was way legit, you know getting care packages at least once or twice a week was pretty normal you know, it probably took the mail maybe about a month to catch up and then it was right there every day, so… it was pretty legit, I give it to ‘em. But definitely seeing the country, seeing the Euphrates river, seeing the Tigres river, and just knowing the history that’s been there since the beginning of the world you know, these are substructures of our world that’s been there and it’s just kind of cool seeing it, but like you can definitely see the destruction and devastation that mankind has put on some of these places over the course of… the beginning of time, like the rivers are just filled with trash, the university is probably one of the most gorgeous things about Iraq I’ve ever seen, it’s just the layout of the campus and how clean the campus and you know, the people that go to school there, like girls walk around in little shorts, it’s legit dude. So people, guys walking around in tank tops and tshirts you know, like there— Interviewer: “It’s not what you expect!” It’s like totally out of the norm, then you go a block down the street you know, everyone’s all straight. Straight faced, angry, only showing their eyes… you know. (32:34) Interviewer: “So after that you went home.” Yeah, so when we got back in 2009, January 1st, 2009, I got orders in February — cause I reenlisted in Iraq — I got orders to go to Fort Leonard Wood and be an AIT instructor, at 554 �which is the same exact company that I had when I graduated AIT five years prior to, now. So here I am, gonna be an instructor for the same thing that I did. Interviewer: “Okay. So you’ve kinda gone full circle at this point.” Yeah, pretty much. So right back to where I started. Interviewer: “Okay. So what was that like?” It was hell. It was horrible. I hated it, it ruined my career. Interviewer: “Really?” Yeah, I did not like it at all. Coming back, you know I — strict discipline, when I became an AIT instructor I was not a drill sergeant. So I’m just regular permanent party NCO, so I kind of lost that mentality, that emphasis of the NCO because here I am training soldiers on how to do their job, but I don’t have the drill sergeant credibility. I just have a basic, ‘Oh, he’s just some NCO.’ ‘Oh, he’s a drill sergeant, oh, he’s this.’ You know, here I am just E-5, E-6s are getting the same look, but you know, the military — especially the Army — lost a lot of their bearing. They got really, really soft. So when I got there, you know, my first sergeant, during the safety brief, he’s like, ‘You gotta say please, you gotta say thank you, you can’t yell, you can’t scream, if you have any problems you gotta take it to this person, and if it doesn’t go there you gotta take it to me,’ he’s like, ‘This is a whole new Army,’ he’s like, ‘where before we could get in your face and yell,’ he’s like, ‘this is not how it is.’ And I mean that’s how they did it to me, I mean they were in my face yelling and I understand, I disagree but I agree with it at certain times, but sometimes you have to get into somebody’s face and be like, ‘Look, if you don’t understand why I’m having you do this, it’s cause somebody’s life is going to die. It could be mine, it could be yours, it could be somebody else’s, who knows. This is why this needs to be done, because people’s lives are at stake.’ You know, we’re not talking about making fries or something stupid (laughter) but you know, having this whole new mentality like, you know where the soldiers now above me… I disagree with that standard. Totally disagree, cause I cannot train you if: one, you won’t let me train you, and two, you keep not doing everything I say. Like, if I tell you, ‘Hey, this needs to get done,’ or ‘Hey, I want you go do this,’ or ‘Hey, this is how we’re gonna do this exercise, this is what you’re going to do,’ — and you tell me no, and I can’t argue you? Then why am I here? Why am I here to train you if I can’t train you? Interviewer: “I completely understand.” (35:51) No, I’m done. I’m done. Interviewer: “So at this point you were E-5?” Yeah. Interviewer: “And that’s just.. after that you just didn’t want to be in the Army anymore?” Well, I wanted out. Like I wanted to get back into a FORSCOM, I really wanted to get back into deployments, I wanted to get back you know, to what I knew the Army was. Like FORSCOM was starting to change and I wanted to get back to possibly getting back downrange so I put in a �lot of different paperworks to get into different units, but… you know, I just didn’t. My two years there, got out, done. Interviewer: “Alright.” I miss it, I mean it sucked but you know, the Army just wouldn’t let me get back to FORSCOM, they wanted me to stay in TRADOC and it’s like, ‘No, I don’t wanna stay here, this is not what I want to do, so I’m done.’ Interviewer: “So what’d you do after you got out?” Me… I got married when we got back from Iraq, so me and my wife, and then we had our daughter when I was at Leonard Wood for the two years, we ended up having a child. So the three of us, we moved up north towards Traverse City area where she’s from, and then I started working a couple different jobs and then I got into — I heard about the whole Montgomery G.I., post 9/11, … programs, through connections as I’m trying to go through the VA system. So I applied for college up in Traverse City, got into that for automotive, I did that for three years I was up there, once me and the ex-wife — we got divorced in 2013 — things got really, really rough for me, and then 2015 I just finished the automotive program, me and one of my buddies, we opened up an auto shop together up in Traverse City, there’s three of us that did that. And I don’t know if you want to call it like a midlife crisis-type aspect but that’s kind of what I went through, but instead of being on a positive note I actually went inpatient therapy for a couple months down at Battle Creek VA Hospital, which was really amazing and — cause it was there, when I was there for about a month and a half — one of the doctors pulled me off the side, told me about VOC rehab and what I was doing [with] my education, and applied to Grand Valley, got into it, here I am! Interviewer: “So the VA actually like really helped you?” (38:39) On certain aspects yeah, absolutely. Absolutely they did. You know, once I got into finding the people in the VA that wanted to help it was easy. But finding the help was really hard, cause I’ve had many people in the VA system that are just ruthless, like they should not even be affiliated with… they should be working at McDonalds’ is what they should be doing. Interviewer: “Yeah, we’ve heard a lot of…” Horror stories. Interviewer: “Yeah.” Yeah, I bet you have. Interviewer: “Alright, well that pretty much wraps us up. I do want to ask one last question cause I always ask this to people, would you do it again?” Yes. I would. I really would, you know, I would — if I had it my way, or if some people — I know a few people who would even agree, I think there’s two things that every American citizen needs to do. Either one, they need to do two years in the military, or right after high school they need �to go into college. And if they don’t go into college right after high school or within a year or two after high school, then they have to go into the military. For at least two years. Interviewer: “So like South Korea?” Right, or like Switzerland — one of the most peaceful, beautiful countries in the world. Every citizen joins the military for two years. And then they get medical and education benefits, Switzerland’s medical is one of the best in the world. We’re the worst, so we need to do something. Interviewer: “Alright, this will actually be the last question, I promise. I wanna ask this specifically cause you’re a father. If your daughter grew up and said she wanted to join the Army, would you say yes? I know that’s kind of a tough question.” The Army… I would dispute the hell out of. One, because for me the things that I accrued over the time in the Army, I love the Army, I love my friends in the Army, but everything I did in the Army means nothing in society. It doesn’t mean — I cannot get a job in construction, I can’t get a job working equipment, you know I have to get back to school [for] either one to get trained, or I have to start on the totem pole holding a flag on the side of the road, and slowly find one of those managers that’s willing to talk to me for thirty seconds so I can show ‘em, ‘Hey, this is what I did in the military, can I jump on this piece of equipment?” Interviewer: “Yeah.” That’s very hard to do. You know, I could go and pay to have all my certs and then go get that job, but that’s gonna be about $15,000 out of pocket. Interviewer: “Yikes.” So the Army no, I would definitely encourage college first. You know, that way, one, if she wants to go in the military they’ll finish paying off her college, and two she can get advancement in rank you know, she can go off cert and make four times more than what I made. Interviewer: “Yeah.” Or pick a different branch. Do a branch that means something. Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard. What you do in those branches sticks with you [for] your life. Marines and Army, you’re on their terms. Interviewer: “Alright, so that wraps us up.” Alright brother. Interviewer: “Thank you!” [END] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BaldwinJ2302V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baldwin, Jeff Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04 Title A name given to the resource Baldwin, Jeff (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Jeff Baldwin was born in Royal Oak, Michigan and grew up in Hartford, Michigan. He enlisted in the Army in 2004, two years after he graduated high school. He went to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri for basic training and advanced individual training to be a construction equipment operator. After that, he went to Fort Polk, Louisiana and was assigned to the 4th Brigade, 10th Mountain Division. Baldwin was deployed to Afghanistan in 2006, where he worked to fix roads and clear routes of barriers and threats. After three months, he was injured and sent back to the base in Louisiana. After he recovered, he went to Baghdad, Iraq in 2007 for his second deployment. He stayed there for thirteen months, again working mostly in route clearance because IED’s were more of a threat. While in Iraq, he visited a palace for three days for R&R. He also reenlisted in Iraq and returned home in 2009. Baldwin finished out his service at Fort Leonard Wood as an advanced individual training instructor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Afghan War, 2001-2021—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a7683de476033483fa55a58dc2d28bda.mp4 2f8aa5fd270682f768acbf58080a2489 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e44f90d4e1d2b00580868cd1c802d8f3.pdf d77575f3362e5adf7f648250af062055 PDF Text Text 1 Interview with Reverend Chris J. Antal for the Veteran’s History Project Recorded at Drexel University, Philadelphia, PA, 27 MAY 2021 Charlotte: Hi, my name is Charlotte Guedalia, and I am here with Carolyn Hoffmeier and Kate Wagner at Drexel University recording Reverend Christopher Antal's interview for the Veterans History Project. So, Reverend, do you want to introduce yourself? Rev. Antal: I am Christopher Antal, and how much should I say right now? Charlotte: Just share A little bit about yourself and your experience when you first joined the military. Rev. Antal: Sure. Well, I am a citizen of the United States, born in New York, and I'm forty-nine years old right now. I work presently as a chaplain in the Department of Veterans Affairs. I volunteered to serve as a chaplain in the Army. And my service started in 2008 and it ended in twenty sixteen. So just short of eight years. I was in the Army Chaplain Corps. Charlotte: OK, and you said you brought some documents with you and other artifacts that you want to share to give a little more context to your service, do you want to talk about those? Rev. Antal: Sure, yeah, I brought some things. There is a paper trail that captures a lot of my experience. But before I get into that, maybe I will just say that my father was in the United States Navy in Vietnam, and after growing up in a household, learning about that war, I thought I would never serve in the military. And, in fact, when I turned 18 and my father encouraged me to register for Selective Service, I refused. That changed for me when I was in graduate school. I was a student in seminary when September 11th happened in New York. I was studying in New York, and I began to rethink my responsibility as a citizen of the United States and began to think about what it meant for me to do my part with regards to the military, and I decided my part could be serving as a chaplain, and so I started that path towards the chaplaincy, about two thousand five. �2 So, for me, the motivation to volunteer to serve as a chaplain in the Army in a time of war came out of my commitment to fairness and compassion and responsibility. It has been an interesting journey. And just in terms of—as I think back on some of the themes—just the tensions and the complexities of standing in multiple worlds, as an ordained religious leader, representing a religious community with its own culture, with its own values and traditions, and also a commissioned officer in the United States Army, which has its own culture, traditions, values, and being at that intersection and living in that, the tension. Additionally, just being, on the one hand, a soldier in a military uniform, but also a noncombatant, somebody, as chaplains are, who do not train to use weapons. The third kind of complexity to this was that I was not just any chaplain in the military, I was endorsed by the Unitarian Universalist Association, which, in the whole spectrum of religious denominations in the United States, is progressive and pretty far to the left in terms of social causes. So that brought in another dimension of complexity, of coming into a chaplaincy that was not progressive, necessarily not left leaning, but rather quite the other extreme. So, from the outside looking in, all those things were attractive to me. I thought, “this is a really interesting opportunity to make a difference, to bring diversity into the military chaplaincy, to bring a voice of pluralism in a time when the United States was at war in Muslim countries.” My denomination is committed to free exercise of religion. We are not Christian. I am not Christian. And I saw the military chaplaincy as a place where I could make a great contribution, not only to support, with spiritual care, the lives of women and men in difficult conditions, but also to be a cultural bridge and even a peacemaker between the United States military and Muslims in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. So that was all the pretty interesting from the outside, looked like a pretty interesting path. So, I set out on that path in about 2005. The document trail begins with the first ever encounter I had with the military, which was at a medical processing station in Albany, New York. And this was in 2006, in November. So, I got my fingerprints stamped and I went through, it is called a MEPS station. And I just wanted to show this because it is 2006 in November, when I started this process. I mentioned that I had not registered for Selective Service. This quickly became an issue. I was over the age of 25 �3 and after the age of 25, if you are a male in the United States, you cannot register for Selective Service. So, the window of opportunity to register closes. And so, I had not registered, and registration is required to enter the military. So, I began what was called a process of requesting a waiver. And I was guided by the Army recruiter, and I put in a request for a moral waiver for my failure to register for Selective Service. And that process began in 2006, it took over two years before that moral waiver was granted and I could take the next step and be commissioned as an officer in the reserve component of the United States Army. So, my military service obligation, that is what this is, began on December 3rd, 2008. This is my oath of office, where I raised my right hand and took my oath “to protect and defend the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” My father came to New York when I was sworn in on this day, and he was quite proud that his son was taking this path. So that was the start of it for me. And I entered the chaplain candidate program of the New York Army National Guard. I was still going through the requirements of my denomination to be a credentialed, ordained religious leader. This letter here is from the Command Chaplain of the Department of Army and Air Force Joint Force Headquarters in New York. It is written to my denomination, the ecclesiastical endorser who was Beth Miller at the time. And it was in December 2009, about a year after I entered the chaplain candidate program. And this is a letter from Chaplain Olsen, seeing if my denomination can expedite the process by which I am credentialed because the Army needed chaplains that were deployable. And that is what this letter is. So, the context in which I entered the chaplaincy, there was a real urgent need to fill empty slots with deployable chaplains. I got my ecclesiastical endorsement in December 2010, that is the official sign-off of a religious body credentialing a chaplain as a religious leader for the military. And so that was in December 2010. And then in 2011, I was accessioned as a full chaplain, 20th of April 2011, and promoted to first lieutenant. This is a document from the Army that says I was accessioned as a chaplain, as a first lieutenant. And the following year, I got my orders to active duty. So that is what this is. Activation to active service. And these are my orders from the Department of Army to go to Afghanistan. These were dated 24 September 2012. My orders to go to Afghanistan. �4 So, I arrived in Afghanistan. I was a battalion chaplain for a signal battalion of the New York Army National Guard that was attached to the 3rd Infantry Division based in Kandahar. And as a chaplain at the battalion level, my responsibility was to provide spiritual care and religious support to the soldiers in my assigned unit, and also to provide denominational coverage to service members as well as U.S. civilian contractors from my denomination across the battle space. And then, the third was to provide support within my area of operations to service members from all branches as well as U.S. civilian contractors. So that was the scope of my responsibility. I was the only chaplain for my denomination in Afghanistan in 2012 and I was one of about 20 chaplains based out of Kandahar Airfield. My unit was spread throughout southeast Afghanistan at about 20 different locations, forward operating bases. So, my routine from the time I arrived in late September 2012 was to travel with my chaplain assistant. I had a chaplain assistant who was assigned to protect me, essentially. He was an enlisted soldier, who carried a weapon, and I traveled during the week by air, by helicopter to different forward operating bases, visiting soldiers in my assigned unit. But, in almost every case, when I arrived at those forward operating bases, I was the only chaplain there. So, I would encounter other service members from all branches, not just my own unit, who were looking and interested in support from a chaplain. Charlotte: What did that support look like? Rev. Antal: The Chaplain Corps response would be “nurture the living, care for the wounded and honor the dead.” I think that works pretty well in terms of a snapshot. The chaplain, in the context of the military in a deployed setting, is, for many people, the only safe place to speak. I can joke that the chaplain is the one officer who is not going to yell at you if you are a soldier. So that was part of—a big part o—the chaplain's role. We call it a ministry of presence. And within the context of the military, the chaplain provides absolute confidentiality. So, no matter what a person may be dealing with, and that includes homicidal or suicidal ideation or intent, the relationship between a service member and their chaplain is protected. It is quite unique; it is not even like that within the hospital. That kind of level of absolute confidentiality does not exist, as far as I am �5 aware, in any place other than within the military. So, there is a safety to the relationship and, so, for telling stories, sharing experiences, but also expressing emotions. And when I say that I am talking about a lot of grief, a lot of sadness and, in some cases, guilt, and disgust, and resentment over betrayal. Something that we have come to call within my work now, with Veterans, Moral Injury. So, there was a lot of it, a lot of grief, over loss, loss of life, but also often loss of relationships. People, like I was, separated from spouses, from children. I went to Afghanistan—I was commissioned at the age of 36 and I went to Afghanistan in 2012—just after my fortieth birthday. I had five children and I was married. And it was common, especially among reservists, to find older service members who were married, who had children, and they were struggling with the separation. Managing the mission and still being a husband and a father, or a mother and a wife, because we had women. So, those were the kinds of things I dealt with. In terms of religious support, I was back at Kandahar Airfield every weekend with my chaplain assistant, and I began offering religious services from my tradition, and since I was the only Unitarian Universalist chaplain in Afghanistan, it was my prerogative to offer that type of service at the airfield where there were many other chaplains offering many other kinds of services. And at that time, Kandahar Airfield was like a city. There were twenty thousand people at Kandahar Airfield, contractors and service members from a dozen different countries that were part of ISAF, International Security Assistance Forces. So, it started small, just me and my chaplain assistant, but we promoted it around the airfield and our congregation grew, and by January—I brought a picture—we had a congregation! This is our congregation in January of 2013. And you can see, I was I was wearing my robe and—yeah that is me, no hair—so I brought my robe, I brought my minister's robe, and I am wearing what is called a stole, and I actually have that stole here. This stole. So, the robe, I actually brought my robe to Afghanistan, and it seems crazy, but I did it because the robe reminds me of who I am as a minister, and I was very concerned about forgetting who I am in the context of the military, where we are all wearing uniforms; we are immersed in the military machine. So, I wanted something that would ground me and remind me of who I am, other than an officer, other than a soldier, who I am as a minister, who is ordained and endorsed by a religious community to represent the values of that community in the context of the military. That was very important to me. �6 So, my practice on every Sunday was, I would put on my robe—and it was the one time during the week that I was not in an Army uniform, it was the only time—and it became a very important time for me. A couple hours on Sunday morning where I put that robe on, I put on the stole, and this stole is again, it is like the complexity, because this is the intersection of my denomination. And this stole was made for me by members of a congregation in Massachusetts. It has the symbol of our faith here; it is the flaming chalice. So, it was made for me by members of the congregation in Massachusetts, but they made it out of multi-cam, which is the material of the Army uniform that I wore in Afghanistan. So, it is like this intersection of the faith community and the military, it is all tied up right here in this stole. I do not wear this anymore, but it is an artifact that I saved. And it was, for me, a reminder in Afghanistan of the community that I represented and the support I had of the community for the work I was doing as a chaplain. So, in any case, it became an important part of my routine to put on my robe, to wear that stole, and to gather in religious community at Kandahar Airfield with the people in that photograph who were from the Army, Air Force, Navy, civilian contractors. And it was it was a beautiful part of our week, something I looked forward to, and it was a place for me to get in touch with my values and the community that sent me essentially into the military. Does that make sense? Charlotte: Yes. What did you feel was your responsibility for those people? Rev. Antal: So, in my denomination, we covenant to affirm and promote principles, and that is what defines us as a religious community, and those principles include a free and responsible search for truth and meaning, justice, equity and compassion and human relations, the goal of world community. So, in that context, in that role, my responsibility was to embody those values, was to speak the truth as I understood it, to speak it with compassion, and to affirm the inherent worth and dignity of all people, which is another one of our principles. And that is a challenge to do in the context of a tribal culture like the military, that wants to prioritize certain lives, and place greater value on certain lives, than other lives, specifically the lives of U.S. personnel over the lives of, say, local Afghanis. So, one of the practices we had on Sundays was to acknowledge the deaths during the week, and we would light candles to the service members and then also— and often these names were hard to find, but we could find them through media reports—the names of Afghans who were killed, and to lift up those names as well, �7 alongside the names of U.S. personnel who died. And, for me, that was a simple practice, but a very important way of acknowledging the inherent worth and dignity of all people, no matter which side they are on in this conflict. It human, it was a humanizing practice that was quite sacred. So, it was in the context of that congregation that I gave a sermon that changed the whole trajectory of my military career. It was November of 2012, and I had been in Afghanistan just over two months, and Veterans Day, which is November 11th, fell on a Sunday in 2012. And so, we were gathering, I knew we would gather as a religious community, on Sunday morning, and it would be Veterans Day, and I, by that point, had heard a lot, I had seen a lot, I was struggling with a lot and, I felt and, and I was... I was... present to the struggle of others around, around a lot of moral concerns with what the military was doing in Afghanistan and, and in surrounding countries like Pakistan. So, I, I gave voice to it, in what I called a “Veterans Day Confession for America,” that was the name off the sermon, And it is here, it is not long. I was kind of debating about whether I should read it or not. But, you know, I think I will. It will not take long. So, this is the sermon I gave to that community on Veterans Day 2012. On this Veterans Day, let us confess ours sins before God and neighbor. Most merciful God, we confess we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and what we have left undone. We have become people of the lie, out to tame the frontier wilderness while the beast within lurks hidden in shadow, paralyzing us in a perpetual state of denial. We have made war entertainment, enjoying box seats in the carnival of death, consuming violence, turning tragedy into games, raising our children to kill without remorse. We have morally disengaged, �8 outsourcing our killing to the one percent, forgetting they follow our orders. The blood they shed is on our hands too. We have insulated ourselves from the painful truths Veterans carry. Our bumper magnets proclaim, “Support our troops,” but for too many, suicide is the only panacea. Our insulation is their isolation. We have made our veterans into false idols, blood sacrifice and the national altar of war. Parades and medals perpetuate the hero myth, glorifying those who kill and die on our behalf. We have betrayed the dead, saying they will not be forgotten. Yet how many among us, can name a single war casualty of the past decade? We have sanitized killing, and condoned extrajudicial assassinations, death by remote control, war made easy without due process, protecting ourselves from the human cost. We have deceived ourselves, Saying, "Americans do not kill civilians, terrorists do," denying the colossal misery our wars inflict on the innocent. The national closet bursts with skeletons. We have abandoned our allies, luring them in with promises of safety and security, Then failing to follow through with promises made, using them, and leaving them, to an almost certain death. Almighty God, on this Veterans Day, �9 help us turn from this wayward path. Deliver us from indifference, callousness, and self-deception. Fill us with compassion for all who bear the burdens of our wars. Grant us the courage to pay attention, stay engaged. So, we may listen without judgment, restore integrity, accept responsibility, keep promises, and give honor to whomever honor is due. It always hurts to read that. But it is as true for me now, as it was nine years ago. Charlotte: You said, “death by remote control.” Can you talk a little about, like, the issues going on? Rev. Antal: Yeah, well, the United States is operating weaponized, remotely piloted vehicles, or drones, out of Kandahar Airfield, and killing people. And I saw the drones, on the flight line. I read reports by mostly outside investigative journalists—because the whole program was secret—and found the whole practice deeply disturbing. In terms of the allies. I meant, Afghans who worked as interpreters for the United States military. One, in particular, Tariq, came to our congregation and told us his story. Tariq, like many of the Afghans who became interpreters for the United States military, was promised protection. In 2009, the United States Congress passed the Afghan Allies Protection Act which authorized six thousand visas to Afghans who worked as interpreters for the United States military, because they were getting killed for associating with the United States military. And their families were being killed. When I met Tariq in 2012, he had been waiting two years for his visa interview. And, sometime in October, The Washington Times reported that, after three years of the Act, something like sixty visas had been issued, and there was a backlog of four thousand. So that was bothering me. I felt ... I was a citizen of the United States, that my government had made this promise to these people and betrayed them. So, I wanted to address that. Charlotte: So, what did you do to address that? �10 Rev. Antal: It started with speaking to this little community that was gathering on Sundays. We brought in Tariq; we made a recorded interview with Tariq. I started reaching out to my colleagues in the United States who lead congregations around the country. And we started a letter campaign. We set up a website for Tariq in particular. I wrote to my elected officials. We advocated. It took until 2016, but, in February of 2016, I met Tariq at the airport in Buffalo, New York with his wife and four children. So, he is here. Charlotte: What was that experience like for you? Rev. Antal: I will never forget that. I brought my daughters, and a pickup truck filled with furniture, and three thousand dollars in cash my congregation had collected. I felt relieved that I did something. We are still in touch. We are friends. Charlotte: And going back to that letter you were talking about. What was the military response? Rev. Antal: I shared that sermon with my denomination, which is based out of Boston. I sent it by email and gave them permission to post it on the denomination's website. They have a page for military ministry. Two days after they posted it, I was called to meet the commander of the battalion that I was assigned to. He showed me the sermon online. He said, "did you write this?" I said, "yes, sir." He said, "Your message doesn't support the mission. You make us look like the bad guys." I offered to take it down. As soon as the meeting ended, I did. I contacted my denomination and told them to take the posting down, it was creating issues. But the commander started an investigation against me. It is called an Article 15-6 investigation. He appointed an investigating officer to write up charges against me. I was advised to get legal counsel. So, I did. I got a trial defense lawyer who was based out of Kandahar Airfield, working for the United States Army. And that started a two-month process of me basically having to fight the Army to stay in my role as a chaplain, and possibly stay out of prison, while I was still in Afghanistan and still providing—trying to provide—spiritual care to the people I was responsible for. I had a good trial defense lawyer, Major Sean Park. We worked hard and he believed—and he said this to me, “Chaplain, this is a misunderstanding,” That a... “a misinterpretation.” He said, he said “misinterpretation… that has turned into a fishing expedition.” Yeah, that is what he said. �11 So, I mean, I have got like pages and pages of investigative documents, and questions and then our response to these questions, all that came out of that sermon. I was handed a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand for “politically inflammatory speech.” I was given the option to appeal. So, I filed a rebuttal, and, with my rebuttal, I submitted over twenty-five letters of support, including letters from every person that was there in the congregation and heard the sermon, as well as people from around the country who had read the sermon online. One of the most important letters, for me, was this letter here from a theologian from our denomination. I reached out to him. His name is Paul Rasor. He got his doctorate from Harvard. He is published. He is a leading thinker on justice and peace within our denomination. And he wrote this to the General who issued the reprimand—a letter of support. I am an ordained Unitarian Universalist minister and a Unitarian Universalist theologian, my doctoral studies focused on theologies of Unitarian Universalism and related religious traditions. I have published two books and many articles on Unitarian Universalism and its theological principles, including its understanding of issues relating to war and peace. For the past eight years, I have served as the director of the Center for the Study of Religious Freedom and Virginia Wesleyan College. In this capacity I am experienced in matters of religious freedom, including First Amendment principles of non-establishment and free exercise of religion as well as in interfaith relations. So, I mean, he has got credentials, and he says this: I can affirm that Chaplain Antal's public prayer entitled "A Veteran's Day Confession for America" violates no tenet of the Unitarian Universalist faith. In both its content and its tone, the Confession speaks both to and from the heart of Unitarian Universalism. Moreover, in my judgment, the Confession does not bring dishonor to the United States military. Instead, it constitutes a careful and sensitive expression of concern by a Chaplain towards those in his spiritual care. All ministers, including military chaplains, must constantly honor and balance their pastoral and prophetic roles. This dual responsibility is recognized within Army regulations and has always been part of the Unitarian Universalist ministry. �12 Those dual roles are sometimes in tension with each other, but more often they work together in a mutually supportive way. And that is the case with Chaplain Antal's confession, which blends and balances the pastoral and prophetic voices in a constructive and effective manner. I believe his chaplaincy, including his Veteran's Day Confession, Chaplain Antal has upheld these values and brought honor, not dishonor, to Unitarian Universalism and the United States military. I mean, I have got a stack of letters like that. That one that on is especially important to me because I was always clear that I was a minister first, representing my faith community. And an officer and a soldier, that all came much later. So, to have that kind of affirmation, while I was being reprimanded by the military, I was being validated by my denomination. And it helped sustain me through a pretty difficult period, having that kind of support. Charlotte: This is the first time I heard that letter read out loud. It is interesting because it sounded like he was saying you were very consistent with the ethics of your denomination and the military, and it is not at odds. So, you said, there is a lot of tension between the two. Do you feel that the behavior and values you were upholding as part of your denomination were well in line with the military? Rev. Antal: Yeah, well, it is complicated. I mean, the military is a very complex organization, and the Army regulation that Dr. Rasor referenced in that letter, I am very familiar with that Army regulation, it speaks to the job of chaplains, and it says that chaplains are “to speak with a prophetic voice against issues of moral turpitude in conflict with” military values, or “Army values.” So, in other words, Army regulations, at that time, did say that chaplains had a responsibility not only to provide spiritual care to individual soldiers, but to speak truth to power, which is this idea of a prophetic voice, which is a deeply a part of my tradition, as well as many religious traditions. Truth to power. That regulation has been removed. Charlotte: Removed? Rev. Antal: Yes. After I invoked it. It is sad. But I think I brought... I raised this tension and ... and rather than address it and integrate this into the chaplaincy, the leadership �13 decided to avoid it and to remove it. Any reference to the prophetic of the military chaplain has been removed from Army regulations. I mean, I will finish the story because, I mean, this went all the way up to the Pentagon. And I got, I did, a rebuttal. I had letters of support. And, at the end of the day, the General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand was not rescinded, which is what I was requesting. But it was filed locally. Which is supposed to mean it does not have an impact on my career. It stays in Afghanistan, in theory. However, the commander of the battalion who I was assigned to use the reprimand as the basis to release me from active duty. So, I have here a release from active duty. “Early release of Chaplain Antal,” citing “extenuating circumstances. Chaplain Antal requires more mentorship and training. And he's being redeployed early.” That is what this letter says. That is called a REFRAD, release from active duty. And then this is my Officer Evaluation Report. February 15, 2013. Says, “do not promote.” The box for “unsatisfactory performance” is checked. And, in the text, the senior rater, who was my battalion commander, wrote “during this rating period he received a GOMOR,” which is a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand, “during our deployment. He should be given opportunity for retraining to support the overall mission. The rated officer refused to sign.” I refused to sign this. By referencing the GOMOR in my officer evaluation, the commander made it a part of my permanent record. Which was against the intent of the general officer who filed it locally. So, I was released from active duty. I got an honorable discharge. I got a statement of wartime service. I came through Fort Bliss, Texas. This is the medical station I went through, March 6th. Question 13 asks, "Have you suffered from any injury or illness while on active duty for which you did not seek medical care?" I wrote, "moral injury, a betrayal of what's right." That is what I wrote on this. And then, number seventeen, "do you have any other questions or concerns about your health?" I said yes, “How do we heal the moral and soul wound?" The poor tech medical tech who received this did not know what to do with what I had said. Charolotte: It is interesting because that is consistent with everything you have done since, right? �14 Rev. Antal: Yes, the work that I have done since has come out of that experience, yeah, pretty much. Charlotte: Could you talk about that work? Rev. Antal: Yeah. I will. Let me just finish the story of the General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand, so I came back, and I wrote to my senator. These are a bunch of letters from Senator Kirstin Gillibrand. She wrote back and I started a congressional inquiry about what went down with me. So, I have some correspondence from that. And that congressional inquiry went to the Pentagon. And I actually got a response from—this is a response from a senior chaplain in the Chief of Chaplains Office at the Pentagon— where he is acknowledging that, it was “inappropriate for the senior rater to mention that GOMOR in my office evaluation report” and that constitutes “discriminatory treatment.” So, I got support from the Pentagon's Chief of Chaplains Office, which felt good. That was in December, and I was eventually promoted to captain—I got my promotion orders 2 May 2014. And these are my promotion orders to captain. So, it felt good, it felt good to push back. You know, I thought I would just quit, but I had a lot of support and a lot of encouragement. People saw the value of my work within the military. So, I was promoted, so that that meant I could stay in, and the “do not promote” Officer Evaluation was removed from my permanent record. End of the story is in April 2016, I resigned. I hung in there for a couple more years, but this is my letter of resignation, which I wrote publicly and dated April 12, 2016, and then April 14th, [October] I got my discharge orders. 14 October 2016 I was out. So, there are a lot of gaps in that chronology, but… The experience I had with my deployment, and encounters with Tariq, but also service members—David was a Veteran I encountered in my first assigned unit. And I first met him in an orange jumpsuit with handcuffs at Rikers Island. He had come back from Iraq and murdered his girlfriend. And I came to know David by visiting him in prison as he went through his trial and sentencing. And I learned about his combat experience in Iraq on multiple tours and the kind of trauma that he suffered. And the challenges he had in getting care. Coming out of that, the challenges he had of "reintegration" is the word we use. And it was heartbreaking, it was heartbreaking. To see him sentenced to life in prison as a 30-year-old man, father of two children. So, I will never forget that experience I had with David. And then, in Afghanistan, I met and worked closely with another Veteran of Iraq who had been deployed then to Afghanistan. His name was �15 Angelito. And he came to me in Afghanistan, and he was going to kill himself. And I worked with him, I made a promise not to, and meet with me, and had my chaplain assistant take the firing pin from his gun. And over a period of weeks the story emerged about his own experience that he had had in Iraq. And how he was haunted by an incident that left innocent people dead. And he was burdened by guilt. And, with Angelito, I was able to provide some guidance and he was a musician, and he wrote a song of lament, with my encouragement and then I invited him to the congregation that was meeting on Sunday to share his song. And he did. And that whole process, of him giving voice to this lament, of using music and finding the supportive community, did what no medication could do for him, no therapy could do. And he is doing well now. I mean, he's doing well. I spoke to him a few weeks ago, actually. So, David's story had a tragic ending. Angelito was not tragic. I like to think that, you know, my intervention with Angelito, at that point in his life, changed the outcome of what could have otherwise been another yet another Veteran suicide. So, I, I left the military, but the issues that I encountered, the people I encountered, the pain that I encountered, I could not walk away from all that. And I found a way to continue. To work with people like David, people like Angelito, without having to wear a uniform, without having to follow orders. And so, I do that now, as a chaplain in the Department of Veterans Affairs. And the kind of pain that I encountered, which is probably best described as moral pain or soul anguish. Now that has become the focus of my work. And I published three papers in peer-reviewed journals about our moral injury work at the Philadelphia VA Medical Center. I am in the process of publishing a fourth. The practice that I started, which is a group that has a public ceremony component, I started in 2016. We worked with over fifty Veterans now have gone through our group. It has become very meaningful work, for me. It was borne out of my experience in the military. My encounter with service members, my own experience of moral pain and anguish, and trying to reconcile who I am, what I believe and what I value with all that has been going with our nation, and our wars. Before I get into what I am doing now, I did want to share a piece of the military story that I have not mentioned yet. I mentioned that I was a progressive chaplain for the Unitarian Universalist Association and, I mean, this this part of the story is precious to me. I am a straight heterosexual male. I belong to a denomination that has a long history of being open and affirming, of ordaining gays and lesbians, officiating weddings between gays and lesbians, and advocating in public policy for changes in policy for �16 respect and equity in the law for all people. So, I entered the military at a time when the policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was on the cusp of being repealed. That policy was in effect from 1993 until 2011 and it was creating great stirs within the culture of the military, especially within the Chaplain Corps. In fact, on April 28th in 2010, a group of more than sixty retired generals, who were chaplains in all branches of the military, wrote a letter to President Obama insisting that he not repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell because it would lead to the total moral collapse of the military. This was the argument they were making. None of these chaplains were from my denomination. Yet the very existence of the letter brings to the surface the culture of the chaplaincy that I entered in that time. Obama was not swayed by the letter. On December 22nd, 2010, he repealed Don't Ask, Don't Tell. It went into effect in September of 2011. So right at the time I was coming in as a chaplain into the Army, the repeal was taking effect. And so, I got involved in this, I got involved with OutServe, this is a conference I went to in October of 2011. I was a speaker. This is the association of actively serving gay personnel, lesbian gay personnel. I did not go in uniform. I went as a minister. My denomination paid for the trip. I got involved in the Forum on Military Chaplaincy, which is a progressive group of chaplains. And I went to a conference out in Dallas, Texas, and I did an interview with The Dallas Voice and I got put on the cover. This is me in November of 2011 on the cover of The Dallas Voice, which is the gay and lesbian newspaper in Dallas, Texas. And it says, "Perform or provide, every soldier is entitled to pastoral care. The Forum will make sure they get it." This is the Forum of Military Chaplaincy that I was a part of. So, I was put on the front page of this. I was interviewed in this article. I talked about being a Unitarian minister in the Army, and this article went online, and it then shot like wildfire across the whole military chaplaincy. And, within a week, I was being summoned to the Public Affairs Office. I was being ... getting emails from chaplains. And one chaplain, who is a Major, came to the post where I was on active duty working, and threatened me, physically, threatened me, called me "poison to the chaplain corps," those were his words, for taking this kind of public position. So, it was it was quite, quite a period. This is a picture of me in uniform at West Point in April of 2000, March, actually, end of March 2012. I was there to give the invocation at the inaugural Knights Out Dinner. Knights Out is the Gay and Lesbian Alumni Association of West Point. My congregation was very close to West Point. None of the assigned chaplains [at West Point] would give the invocation. I happened to know Sue Fulton, who was a Unitarian and was on the Board of Visitors, like the Board of Trustees of West Point. She was a lesbian and she invited me to come and do the invocation. So, I showed up and did the �17 invocation. This is a picture of the Knights Out program. And I did it in uniform, I was a first lieutenant, a new chaplain, I showed up at West Point, did this invocation in uniform, and there were a lot of people there, including Colonel Tom Kolditz. At the time he was the Professor and Head of the Department of Behavioral Science and Leadership at West Point. And he came to the dinner. And after I did the invocation, he came up to me and said, "you know, I am so impressed that you, as a chaplain, would show up here and do this invocation. I want you to do the invocation at my retirement ceremony. I am retiring from West Point from the Army. I am going to be promoted to general at the time of my retirement. And I want you to do the invocation." So, this was really an honor. This is the program for the retirement ceremony of Colonel Tom Kolditz. And I am smiling because, I mean, this is a big deal. And there were chaplains assigned to West Point who were colonels, but I was being asked to do the invocation. And so, I had to deal with the politics of that. I had to go talk to the colonel chaplain at West Point and say, "hey, you know, I got invited, I am coming in to do this." But so, this was the beginning of my chaplaincy experience. I was being called on the one hand, "poison to the chaplain corps" by chaplain colleagues. And, at the same time, I was being invited by the Professor and Head of the Department of Behavioral Science and Leadership of West Point to do his invocation because he thought I was such a great chaplain. So, it was like this, the Twilight Zone world that I was stepping into, where I was getting my mixed messages from one place and from another. And then it was just kind of the course of my military career was like that. I was I was getting reprimanded on the one hand and like affirmed and validated on the other for doing the same thing. So, it was just part of the whole experience of living in these two different worlds and multiple worlds, multiple cultures, and trying to just navigate through that. So, I smile when I think about that. Those were some of my fonder memories. There is a lot of beauty in my ministry as a chaplain. This picture was also at West Point. This is me doing a funeral. I brought this stole. This is my chaplain stole. It is black on one side for funerals. It is white on the other side for weddings. I did both. I did funerals. This is at West Point, a Unitarian graduate who had passed away. The family invited me. Beautiful memories and experiences of being able to officiate these rites of passage. I also did same sex weddings. I did, I married two men in the Cadet Chapel at West Point. I will never forget that. It was a wonderful experience, a wonderful memory. And I did other marriages and other weddings as well. Other things that I value and treasure from my time as a chaplain include just being present with people in times of �18 death and loss. I did over fifteen dignified transfer ceremonies in Afghanistan where we transitioned, brought a casket of a service member who had been killed. I did casualty notification teams with the Casualty Notification Officer, where I would show up, in the middle of the night. I remember one night knocking on the door, letting the mother know that her son had just died, by, in that case, suicide. So, between visiting veterans in prison, and being officiants at weddings and gravesides, and notifying people in the middle of the night of the deaths of their loved ones, and just being present with people in the midst of some of the most difficult and painful moments of their lives. That is an experience that I will always treasure and hold as quite sacred. So, despite all the crazy bureaucracy in the reprimand and investigation and these kinds of things, it was all worth it, I think, for me to have done, to have gone through all of that, to just have had the privilege of serving as a chaplain in the Army. So, I continue that kind of work, as I said, I work within the VA Medical Center. I brought another picture. Our group, Moral Injury Group, meets for 12 weeks, and at the tenth week, we have a Community Healing Ceremony. This is a picture from a ritual that I lead in that ceremony. The inner circle, these are Veterans, the outer circle, these are civilians. And before we do this ritual, which I call the Reconciliation Circle, Veterans share their testimony with the community. The community bears witness and then, through movement, and touch, and a confession, a community confession which I lead, the community bears witness to the Veteran’s pain, and shares responsibility, culpability and responsibility. So, you know, I gave a sermon that was a confession and I continue to do that kind of work, of public and communal confession, of acknowledgement of our losses, of the harm that we have inflicted as a nation, through these wars, the pain that has been inflicted. There is a lot of reckoning that the country needs to do. And I sit on the high-risk team at the hospital where we review, each week, the Veterans flagged as high-risk for suicide. We continue to have 18 to 20 veterans die by suicide each day in the United States. And I think the work that I am doing around moral injury, and involving the community, is exactly the kind of work that needs to be done to reduce Veteran suicide, but also to educate the society about the real costs of military force. So, in the future, we do not so readily resort to the use of our military. So, it is meaningful work, and it has grown out of my experience. And there is nothing I would rather be doing, quite frankly, than the work I do. So, I feel very fortunate. �19 It has taken its toll on me personally, and my family. After twenty-one years of marriage, my wife, then-wife, requested a divorce in two thousand and nineteen. After my deployment, her health deteriorated. The stress that I went through impacted my whole family, and it certainly impacted my marriage. But I have learned to take care of myself, by a few practices. One I started in Afghanistan, which is which is blood donation. I have gotten a few coins and medals, but the one I am most proud of is from the Armed Services Blood Program. This certificate is from Afghanistan, it is from twenty-three units of platelets donated between October 12th and February 2013. So, every week I was on the apheresis machine donating blood. And I got a coin for that, and that was meaningful for me because I there was so much taking of blood and I, I wanted to give blood. And it became very clear to me about the value of life and how fragile life is. And I even experienced blood leaving my body and being carried down the hall and going into someone else's body who was bleeding out from a traumatic wound. So, I continue to give blood. Last year I donated nineteen times at the Red Cross. And it keeps me in touch with what matters most, which is life, and the preciousness of life. Certainly, my experience in the Army, and in Afghanistan, has helped me appreciate the value of life, and the fragility of life. And that is a precious lesson. I think I will stop. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AntalC2375V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Antal, Christopher Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-05 Title A name given to the resource Antal, Christopher (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Christopher Antal was born in New York in c. 1971. He decided to become a Unitarian Universalist chaplain in the military in 2005. Because he was not registered for the Selective Service and had passed the age of 25, he requested a moral waiver to register which was not accepted until 2008. He then entered the chaplain candidate program of the New York Army National Guard. He got his ecclesiastical endorsement in December 2010 and was accessioned as a full chaplain in April 2011, and promoted to first lieutenant. He was ordered to go to Afghanistan in September 2012, where he provided religious support to the soldiers of his battalion of the New York Army National Guard that was attached to the 3rd Infantry Division based in Kandahar. The task given to the Army Chaplain Corps was to “nurture the living, care for the wounded and honor the dead.” Veterans Day in 2012 was on a Sunday, and on that day he gave a sermon criticizing the violence America had inflicted in Afghanistan. This sermon was posted on his denomination’s website, and when the batallion commander found it he started an investigation against Antal, who needed to get a lawyer to avoid losing his position as a chaplain in the Army or possibly going to prison. This began a long process in which he was released early from active duty and his GOMOR (General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand) was made part of his permanent record, which the Pentagon deemed discriminatory. In May 2014, he was promoted to captain and the GOMOR was removed from his permanent record. While in Afghanistan, Antal advocated for Afghans that worked as interpreters for the United States and had been waiting years for their promised visas. He started a letter-writing campaign to help one interpreter, Tariq, in particular. In February 2016, the campaign had succeeded and Tariq and his family arrived in New York. Antal resigned from the military in April 2016. He believes that his experience in the Army has helped him appreciate the value of life and its fragility. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Guedalia, Charlotte (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c6bbd2e9da13a89b5d241eb32d1510e6.mp4 3634fac2c1ed2c429146719ab0a304b2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f1d02ca5bb1b90014266e24938aba82e.pdf 9b5ac7776ca6665edb8f8be94d2a43fc PDF Text Text Andrews, Howards Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Howard Andrews Length of Interview: (39:04) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Mr. Howard Andrews of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Can you start us out with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were you born?” I was born in Meadville, Pennsylvania on November 1st 1926. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you grow up in Meadville? Did you grow up there?” Yes I did. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did your family do for a living then?” (00:34) My father worked on a railroad. Interviewer: “Okay, and did he have steady work through the 30’s?” Yes he did, one of the people who I knew did work fairly steady. Interviewer: “Okay, do you know what kind of work he did?” He worked on a train, on freight trains as a trainman for many years then he became a conductor. �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “Okay, now how many kids were in your family?” Two. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and did your mother have work outside the home?” No she didn’t. Interviewer: “Okay and, let’s see, did you finish high school?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay and when did you graduate from high school?” (1:16) In January of 1944. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you graduated from high school?” I started college. Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go to college?” Allegheny College. Interviewer: “Okay so right there in Meadville.” In Meadville, yes. Interviewer: “Alright, and then how long did you stay in college?” �Andrews, Howards Well I went for part of a year, I took accelerated courses and summer school, so I got years of college in by the fall of ‘44, August I’d say. Interviewer: “Alright, and now let’s see, to back up a little bit before Pearl Harbor happened, and you were still pretty young when Pearl Harbor happened, but had you been paying any attention to the news in the world?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay so you were following the war in Europe and that kind of thing?” Very closely. Interviewer: “Alright, now was that just your own personal interest or did you have teachers who were interested?” (2:21) That was my interest. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did you get your information?” Newspaper primarily. Interviewer: “Alright, okay and then how did you learn about Pearl Harbor?” I heard it on the radio, I was in bed with the mumps, I heard the news on the radio and from then on I had the radio on constantly. Interviewer: “Okay, now at what point do you enter the service yourself?” Enter the service? �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “Yeah.” I enlisted in October of ‘44 and went into active duty in November of 1944. Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you enlist?” Well I preferred to get in the Navy, and I knew that I would be drafted as soon as I turned 18, so that was part of the reason too. Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you prefer the Navy?” I guess just the work, type of work, rather than carrying a rifle I felt better working on a ship. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so then once you enlist and are sworn in, where do you report for training?” Sampson, New York, that was a Navy training center. Interviewer: “Now what part of New York is that in?” (4:00) It’s in the Finger Lakes area, it was on Lake Seneca. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and what did the training there consist of?” Well we were- It was winter when I went through a lot of the basic training there, and if you know anything about that part of the country you get a lot of snow in the winter. So most of our training was really by training film, we got some actual outside work but it was primarily inside. Interviewer: “Okay, now what were they teaching you there?” How to identify Japanese planes, how to fight a fire on a ship. �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “Did they have a lot of emphasis on discipline and following orders?” I don’t recall any, not any emphasis no. Interviewer: “Did they teach you much about the Navy and Navy terminology and that kind of thing?” Yes, there was some there too. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember much what kind of people were teaching you? Were they just other Navy personnel a little bit older than you?” Yes, they were people that had gone through the training and ended up teaching. They were not high ranking people, they were- Well of course a lot of it was video too, most of it was video. Interviewer: “So you were just watching movies?” (5:50) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, how long did you spend there?” 16 weeks. Interviewer: “Okay, so by the time you’re leaving it must be spring or maybe.” Yeah it was. Interviewer: “Well I guess you got there very late in the year so you’re into March so maybe not okay. After you complete the training then what happens to you?” �Andrews, Howards Well I went to service school right after the basic training, or boot training, and I stayed right at Sampson. I went through electrician school. Interviewer: “Okay, what did that consist of?” Basic electricity, training on taking a motor apart for example, repairing a- It was just a general electricians course. Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did that last?” That was 16 weeks also. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you’re doing this training do you get any time off? Can you go off the base?” Boot camp you get one day in a little town called Geneva. Once I got into the service school I had it every weekend, in fact I went home quite a few weekends when I was in service school. Interviewer: “Okay I guess to Meadville it wouldn’t have been too far. Were there trains that ran that way or buses?” (7:28) Well I think bus part way and [unintelligible] hitchhiking a lot of the time. Interviewer: “Alright now, so roughly when do you finish the service school? Is this now the summer or?” Now you’re talking early summer. Interviewer: “Right, okay so now we’re well into ‘44 at that point, or actually, or ‘45?” It was ‘45 yeah. �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “‘45 yeah so do you remember hearing about the end of the war in Europe? For V.E day where were you?” What was that day then? Interviewer: “That’s like May the 8th.” I would’ve still been in the service school, I’m sure I heard about it either then and if I had gone home I would’ve heard it on the radio. Interviewer: “Alright, now by the time you finish, the war in Europe is over, the war in the Pacific is almost over, were you thinking the war might end before you got into it or did you think it was gonna go on a lot longer?” What they told us was that it was gonna last a lot longer, and we thought it was going to last longer, at least for quite a while. Now once I got over there, I could see it wasn’t gonna last very long. Interviewer: “Yeah, well pretty quickly after you get there the war does end. Okay, but you finish service school now and it’s gonna be the summer of ‘45, where do they send you next?” (9:02) Well, I went to California. Shoemaker, California where I spent about three weeks waiting for transport overseas. Interviewer: “Now did you know what your assignment was going to be or you’re just going to be a replacement?” No. �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “Okay, so no idea, and where in California was Shoemaker?” Not too far from San Francisco. Interviewer: “Okay and did you get to go into San Francisco?” Yes, we had to hitchhike in. Interviewer: “So you see a little more of the country there, alright. Now, how did they get you out to California?” Train. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember anything about that train ride?” Yeah, I was able to get on to a regular passenger train, my dad worked on a railroad as I told you, he got me a berth on a Pullman, now most of the guys who were going over they went into a troop ship car. Interviewer: “Yeah troop train, yeah.” (10:22) Yeah, so I had a good trip over. Interviewer: “Okay so you had it much better than usual.” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, cause the troop trains would sometimes stop a lot and let other trains go by. Now did your passenger train go pretty much straight through? Or you have to change trains?” �Andrews, Howards No, no it went straight through it went on it’s regular schedule Interviewer: “Okay alright now you go to Shoemaker, you’re there for a while and now they’re gonna give you an assignment. So when you leave Shoemaker, what happens next?” Well they put us on this troop ship, or I call it a troop ship, to go over further overseas into the Pacific. It was full of sailors, like myself, that were going to be assigned once they got over further. Interviewer: “Okay, and where was your first stop?” Eniwetok as far as I recall. Interviewer: “Okay, now on your way across when you left San Francisco Bay a lot of people talked about how everybody got sea sick. Do the people on that ship get sea sick or not?” (11:34) I did not and I didn’t see anybody that did get sick. Interviewer: “So maybe a little quieter than usual getting out of there, okay. When youYou had to cross the equator to get to Eniwetok?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, that’s still north of the equator, alright, and was Eniwetok just a brief stop over or did you get off there?” No, we didn’t get off, it was just a brief stop. Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did you go from there? You go to the Philippines next or?” �Andrews, Howards I think that’s where we went to the Philippines in the Leyte Gulf. Interviewer: “And when you got there did they have an assignment for you?” No, not right away. Well, they didn’t tell me they did Interviewer: “Alright, now so do you get off the ship then at Leyte?” No we stayed on the ship, I don’t remember how long we were- Before they assigned us to the ship, and that was a case of, you know, one person at a time. Interviewer: “So there were different ships coming in and out of the gulf basically?” (12:50) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what ship did they assign you to? The Vulcan Interviewer: “Okay and what was the Vulcan?” A repair ship. Interviewer: “Okay and what kind of repairs would the Vulcan do?” Well they had a shop for repairing many things, I think it repaired as large as a piece of sheet metal in the hull, or they would repair timepieces, they could [unintelligible] repair. Interviewer: “Okay, now would that work when you- Would the people from the ship go �Andrews, Howards onto other ships to do the repairs?” Yes, they would sometimes. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you do any of that?” No, I was not in a repair section, the ship was divided into two, there was the repair group and there was ship’s company. I was in ship’s company and our purpose was just to keep the ship going. Interviewer: “Okay, so was there much actual work for you to do?” Besides standing watch there was no work to do. Interviewer: “Okay, you didn’t have to fix anything?” No. Interviewer: “So you’re trained as an electrician but you don’t really get to use that.” (14:18) No, well I’ll tell you why, when I went aboard the Vulcan they didn’t need an electrician striker. So they put me in the engine room, and after about a month they came down and said “Okay you can go to the electricians now, or you can stay here.” and I preferred to stay in the engine room because it was good duty, hot and noisy, but nobody bothered you. For one thing they don’t wanna go down there, another is you control everything, hot water. So it was a good duty and I elected to stay in the engine room. Interviewer: “Okay, now did the ship just stay in port pretty much the whole time? Did you stay in the harbor at Leyte or did you go other places?” �Andrews, Howards No, it stayed right there until we left for Okinawa. Interviewer: “Okay now while you were in Leyte Gulf did you ever get to go ashore?” No. Oh wait I take that back, one day they did take us over to, I don’t- I think it was some island or something. I mean it was, not much of a liberty. Interviewer: “They just land you on a beach somewhere and-” That was it. Nothing there, nobody there, well I shouldn’t say that either, some of the women came down selling straw hulaInterviewer: “Hula skirts?” Skirts, yeah but that’s about it. Interviewer: “So not really exciting?” (16:03) No, no. Interviewer: “Okay, and now were you there when the war ended? Were you at Leyte Gulf?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember how you heard about that? When the Japanese surrendered, was that just announced?” No, I think they came over the sound system on the ship. �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “Okay, now before that had you heard anything about the atomic bomb?” About what? Interviewer: “The atomic bomb, because that was dropped a few days earlier.” Yeah, yeah. Yeah we would get daily news. Interviewer: “Okay, now when they announced the dropping of the bomb did that mean anything at the time or you’re not really sure.” I don’t think it meant- Well…I guess I’m not sure, I knew that an atomic bomb was going to be very destructive, but I didn’t know whether they would surrender as quick as they did. Interviewer: “Because we today tend to associate the two pretty closely, but at the time you heard about one before the other, and wouldn’t necessarily make that connection until afterwards.” (17:20) It’s a lot of hollering and jumping around that night, the surrender night that was. Interviewer: “Alright, and then how long do you think you stayed in Leyte after the surrender? Do we have a time table?” Yeah, do I? Interviewer: “So when does he go to Okinawa?” Woman: “He left Leyte on the 4th of September.” Interviewer: “So you’re there basically about a month after the Japanese surrender, and then you go on to Okinawa, and what did you do there?” �Andrews, Howards Well we were in repair ships wherever we went, and this has been mainly small ships, landing craft type, something as large as a destroyer maybe. Now while we were there we had to leave because they said a typhoon was coming so we left and went over to the China sea and sailed around. We were probably gone maybe a week or two. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you manage to stay out of the typhoon?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, because I have talked to people that had to go through that.” Okinawa got hit real hard. Interviewer: “Yes it was. Okay, so did you go back to Okinawa again after that?” (18:50) Yes. Interviewer: “Alright, and then while you were at Okinawa did you ever go on shore?” Yes, I did. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do there? What did you see there?” Well now there was two of us [unintelligible] and here again, things are pretty well bombed down. Now we didn’t- We were not too far from the capital, so we decided we’d go over to the capital and take a look. So we went up and hitchhiked a ride on an Army jeep, and when we got over there there was not much to see, and they warned us to stay on the road. There was stillThe war was over, but some of these soldiers didn’t know it, so they told us to stay on the road. That wasn’t a very exciting day either, it was- �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “Okay, now did you see anything of the civilian population there or were they all out of the way?” I don’t recall seeing anything, anybody there. Interviewer: “Okay now in the capital itself have the building largely been damaged by the fighting or were they still standing?” You know I don’t remember too much about it, I’m not sure we even got downtown in that city. We may have- Cause I remember seeing must of- Must have turned right around and gone back. Interviewer: “Right okay, alright and then after that where do you go next? So after Okinawa.” (20:43) Well we started hitting the Japanese ports, I don’t remember anything before Hiro Wan, but we did have a couple of stops prior to that. We had stopped at Hiro Wan for, I don’t know, several weeks then, but that was where we got a ride over to Hiroshima. They took half the ship one day, and the other half the second. You rode in the back of an open truck, and the first group to go over there, half the ship, they let them loose, they got to wander around. I went over the next day, and we just rode around in the bus- Or in the truck, I think somebody told them we shouldn’t go there at that point. Interviewer: “You think there are people going around picking up souvenirs?” They did, yeah they did, but we didn’t get off the truck. Interviewer: “What did Hiroshima look like?” There was not much left, it was pretty bare, bare ground. I remember seeing one building, concrete building, and that was about all as far as buildings go, their stuff was just flat. �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “Alright, okay and as you’re going back and forth in Japan were you seeing anything of the local population then or were they?” I don’t remember seeing any in Hiroshima. Now when we first got to Kure, we didn’t see many civilians for a day or two, but then they, after the first day, they started coming out. Not many, trying to sell something, they were looking for money, and they had their own personal stuff that they had for sale, silk handkerchiefs and kimonos, and that’s the way it was for quite a while actually. It was- We just didn’t see many civilians, I don’t recall ever seeing a man of military age in Kure, at least not for a long time. It was women and children with a few older men, we didn’t see many civilians cause they had to walk in from somewhere else. Interviewer: “Okay, yes because Kure was a Japanese naval base.” (23:47) Yes. Interviewer: “So now you had just taken that over?” We had taken the harbor over yeah, and we were the only American ship in there the whole time I was there, except for some of them came in for repair. Our captain, as I understand it, was the head of that area and he was a full captain. I never saw another motor, well car or truck, all the time I was in Kure, not a one. Interviewer: “Okay, so the Americans didn’t have any either? Did the Americans have any trucks?” We didn’t see any Americans, other than the Navy people. Interviewer: “On the ships, okay” �Andrews, Howards We never got out of Kure, there’s no way to get there and no place to go, like I said I never saw a motor vehicle the whole time I was there. Interviewer: “Okay, and there’s no town to go into or anything like that?” We did walk to the outskirts of Kure where we saw a school and some houses but for the most part Kure was flattened totally, bombed or burned out. Interviewer: “Okay, now about how long do you think you stayed there?” In Kure, about three months I think. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and during that time did you really get to go anywhere else or do anything else or were you just staying on the base and on the ship?” (25:45) Just on the base really, like I said there was no way to get anywhere, I didn’t know where to go anyways no place to go. Interviewer: “Okay, now does- Did the Navy provide any sort of entertainment for you, I mean did the U.S.O come through or anything like that?” No, they built the building, it was put up before we got there actually, it was nothing but a plain building with some picnic tables inside, and so we went and drank beer. That was the main entertainment, drinking beer. Well we walked around the city for something to do, we went overWe could go over just about every day, we would then have watch, and so we did a lot of walking around the city just looking, talking to anybody we’d find who would talk to us in English. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you find some people who could speak English?” Yes, we did. �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “And what sort of impression did you have of the Japanese people that you met?” Very friendly, they were willing to talk to you if they could speak English, and they were selling their personal belongings. I bought two kimonos from a gentleman, it was his personal kimono, and that’s what they did primarily, if anything, they sold what they had. Interviewer: “Okay, now one of the stories that comes out a lot about the occupation was that there were issues with things like prostitution, and people going into bars, and things like that. Were you or, did you see any of that kind of thing?” (27:52) Absolutely no bars, there was not such a thing as a bar or a restaurant, now prostitution was something else. There were houses until the Navy shut them down, and then instead of central houses, every house turned into a cat house, but no restaurants, no bars. Interviewer: “Okay, so they were- Now did the men from your ship get into trouble? Did they have problems with the civilians or anything like that?” No. Interviewer: “So reasonably well behaved. Alright, now while you’re there are you getting much news or information about what’s happening anywhere else, or are you just- Cause this is after the war is over so maybe there’s not too much.” Well we did get daily news, they had a, well it was sort of like a little newspaper that would come out, the daily news. So we could keep up with what was going on, not in detail butInterviewer: “Now, were there men from your ship that were starting to rotate home?” Yes, yeah those older guys that had enough points would get called out and they would head for �Andrews, Howards home, and some of the lower point guys got taken off the ship and put on other ships to go, well they were going do the Bemidji to do the Interviewer: “Bikini.” [atomic test] Bikini yeah. That was one reason why I didn’t have to go, I was at the point where I was a senior fireman and so I stayed on the ship while some of these guys had got ratings, when I couldn’t, they were shipped off, also I got to come home on the ship. Interviewer: “Alright, so when does the ship leave Japan?” Do I have that down? Woman: “You left Kure on March 4th.” March 4th. Interviewer: “Okay, so March 4th, 1946, okay. Alright, now when you were sailing back home did you stop any place along the way?” (30:40) Stopped in Pearl Harbor. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you see at Pearl Harbor?” Well there still were ships in the harbor, bombed and sunk, we were there overnight. So we didn’t have much, we got liberty, and all we did was take a cab out to Waikiki, nothing going on there, pretty dull. That was our liberty, it was one night. Interviewer: “And then from Hawaii where do you go next? San francisco or somewhere else?” �Andrews, Howards No, no, Panama, we came back through the canal, spent about two days in Panama in all. The ship had money for a party, so I had a nice party, nice night club, open air nightclub, all the booze you could drink. If you wanted a drink you’d go up to the bar and ask to get a drink and they’d give you a bottle, that type of thing, and there- But now here again, now Panama was wide open, I mean there wasn’t anything you couldn’t get there, and they had a lot of women just sitting along the street, and of course the guys took advantage of it, but I guess other than that party there wasn’t too much we did in Panama. Interviewer: “Okay, you just went through the canal.” Yeah, right it took a day for it to go through the canal, which gets boring after a while, you know one canal after another, they’re pretty much the same. Interviewer: “Okay and were you in the engine room during that time or were you up on deck?” (33:04) Part of it, I was on deck part of it. I know I got tired of watching the canals so I went down, took a nap. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so when you come out on the other side, now where are you gonna go in the states after that?” Brooklyn Navy yard. Interviewer: “Okay, and when you got there did you get discharged or did you stay on duty for a while?” No I was on leave there for, I think about…Well several months anyway. Might have been longer than that, do I have that down? Woman: “It just says that you arrived in Brooklyn on the 15th of April.” �Andrews, Howards Oh then I was there for, May, June, July, I was there for about three months. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have duty there? Were you still-” No, no, because they had the- Our ship was in for overhaul, and so when we got- They used outside contractors for everything, we didn’t do anything on that ship at that point. We had nothing to do but play cards and go on liberty. Interviewer: “So you got to see New York City anyway.” For three months, we had liberty everyday we didn’t have watch. Interviewer: “Now did they still have U.S.O and things like that in New York City or had they shut that stuff down now, and were there places you could go in New York City?” (34:41) Not that I- I didn’t see any. Interviewer: “Okay, because during the war they had a lot of that kind of thing in places for servicemen, but the war now had been over for years so maybe not.” They still had them in San Francisco when we went over, but New York I didn’t see anything. Interviewer: “Okay, well in San Francisco when you went over the war hadn’t ended yet so- Okay, and so when do you finally get discharged?” July 3rd, 1956 Interviewer: “Or ‘46, yeah.” �Andrews, Howards ‘46. Interviewer: “Alright and then after you got out of the Navy what did you do?” Well I didn’t do anything for the rest of the summer, but I started back to school in the fall, and well basically had three more years to get my degree. Interviewer: “Alright, and what did you study there?” Chemistry. Interviewer: “And when you got your degree what did you do?” I got a job with Electric Autolite, battery division, and I earned hauls, and I worked with batteries for the rest of my working life. At that point it was Autolite, you know part of Autolite was bought by Ford. So I became a Ford employee in 1961 I think? I worked at Ford until I retired. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you, when you worked for Ford did you come to Michigan or did you stay in New York or?” (36:40) No, I went from Niagara Falls, I went to Toledo, then I came to Michigan. I actually moved to Ann Arbor, but I worked in Dearborn from then on. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you think back to the time you spent in the Navy, are there other memories or things that kind of stand out in your mind that you haven’t brought into the story yet?” No, I guess what kind of stands out is transportation, when I was in boot camp and service school, we used buses, trains, and [unintelligible] to get home, or go anywhere in liberty. The trains up there, I don’t even know what railroad it was, but it was old cars and everything and it ran late, hours you would wait for that train. �Andrews, Howards Interviewer: “Now did some of these still have steam engines and coal burning?” Oh yeah, yeah everything back then I think, pretty much coal for the steam engine, diesel didn’t come in for quite a while after that. Interviewer: “Well I think that some of them existed but maybe that fuel was being used for other purposes.” (38:28) It could be yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now to look back at the time you spent in the Navy, how do you think that affected you or what did you learn from it?” I think it was a good experience with the training and everything, I think I can say that I enjoyed it. Interviewer: “Alright well then thank you very much for taking the time to share the story today.” You’re welcome. �Andrews, Howards � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AndrewsH2111V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Andrews, Howard Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03 Title A name given to the resource Andrews, Howard (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Howard Andrews was born on November 1st, 1926 in Meadville, Pennsylvania. After graduating high school in January 1944, he began taking classes at Allegheny College. In October 1944, Andrews enlisted in the Navy and reported to Sampson, New York for both basic training and electrician school. After that, he went to Shoemaker, California to be shipped overseas. He briefly stopped in Eniwetok before arriving in the Philippines in the Leyte Gulf. There, he was assigned to a repair ship called the Vulcan, where he worked in the engine room. He remained there until World War II ended. On September 4th, 1945, he went to Okinawa and stopped at other Japanese ports as well, the most memorable of which was Hiro Wan because he visited Hiroshima while he was there. After that, he stopped at Kure for about three months and set sail for home on March 4th, 1946. Andrews stopped at Pearl Harbor and went through the Panama Canal before arriving at Brooklyn Navy Yard on April 15th. He stayed there for three months on leave until he was discharged on July 3rd, 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/49ddde5911b6ac1c645424fc69f506b1.mp4 5986581e24004680437de01c5d7aa22e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fbd9e4cda891d9bf3497bb774b0fafd5.pdf b7f50cdf3ae239ab31684f7709e62f08 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Rita Adams Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Rita Adams of Farmington Hills, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay now, can you begin with some background on yourself? And to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: Well, I was born in Wheeling, West Virginia. And February 7, 1922. Interviewer: 1922, so you are 99 years old. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Not quite a record for me, but close. Okay. Now, did you grow up in Wheeling? Or did you move around? Veteran: I spent my first 21st years in Wheeling. Interviewer: Okay. Now— Veteran: And I went to school in Wheeling at a girls’ academy in high school. Interviewer: Okay. Now, was that a private school or a public school? Veteran: It was a private school. �2 Interviewer: Okay. Now— Veteran: You paid to attend there. Interviewer: Right. Now, what did— Veteran: I have a picture of that. Interviewer: Okay, now what did your family do for a living when you were growing up? Veteran: We were very fortunate because this was during the Depression and my father was in construction. So, we had a comfortable enough home. And we lived in the city. It wasn’t unusual to have a vagrant stop and ask for a meal in the evening. But my mother would serve him. They usually just came one at a time. Interviewer: Right. Now— Veteran: And so, then I grew up in Wheeling. Interviewer: Okay. Now, with your father’s business, did he do a lot of government contracts or…? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Just private work? (00:02:21) Veteran: No, it was just a…You know, work for the city. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: In the city. �3 Interviewer: Okay, but was he paid by the city of Wheeling or was he paid by just private people? What kind of contractor was he? Did he just do people’s homes? Veteran: Yeah, mostly. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And some businesses… Interviewer: Right. Veteran: …in Wheeling. But it was all in Wheeling. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so even during the Depression there was enough work for him. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay, so you got by pretty well. And how many kids were in your family? Veteran: There were 5. Interviewer: And where were you in the sequence? Veteran: I was the 4th from the 5th. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, when did you finish high school? Veteran: 1940. Interviewer: Okay. And then what did you do after you graduated from high school? Veteran: Well, it was very popular then if you didn’t go away to college, why, the girls often were employed with the telephone company. Interviewer: Okay. �4 Veteran: And I—so, I was there for 2 years. Interviewer: Alright. And what were you doing for the telephone company? Veteran: Well, they called it representative. You know, service representative. You know, when you come in to pay your bill. Interviewer: Okay. So, you were not an operator, you were somebody who kind of worked at a desk and helped people. Veteran: Yeah. Of course, we all started out with just being an—you know, a telephone operator where you plug in. Interviewer: Okay, so you learned how to do the telephone operator job. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, after that, then one day I noticed this post card—not post card, but… Interviewer: Like an announcement or…? (00:04:39) Veteran: A big… Interviewer: Poster? Veteran: And it said woman Marine. And I looked at it and I thought now there’s a uniform that I could wear every day. And the other, you know, the WACs and the— Interviewer: The WAVES. Veteran: --and the WAVES never turned really, you know… �5 Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, what— Veteran: And I liked—felt that—I was probably doing something for the war effort just by being there in Wheeling in the telephone company. But that really stuck my eye. And so… Interviewer: Okay. Now, I’d like to back up the story a little bit. Before Pearl Harbor happened, were you paying any attention to the news and the war in Europe or things like that? Veteran: I don’t think so. Interviewer: Okay. How did you learn about Pearl Harbor? Veteran: Oh, well everybody heard. You know, that was on a Sunday. And it was, you know, a very big happening. Interviewer: Now, did you listen to the radio or just hear from other people? Veteran: We must have had it on the radio. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I remember I was—we were practicing Christmas hymns. And it was, you know, the 7th of… Interviewer: December. (00:06:26) Veteran: December. And yes, it was just—everybody was caught up in that… Interviewer: Okay. Right. Now— Veteran: …the bombing at Pearl Harbor. �6 Interviewer: Right. Now, after—once the war started, how did that effect life in your hometown? Is there rationing or things like that? Veteran: Everybody tried to do something for the war effort. Everybody was caught up in it. And well, as you probably know, the automotive kind of came to a standstill and they, you know, started making planes and all that. We had like food stamps, I guess you would say. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And they were rationed. And everything was rationed I would say. Interviewer: Right. Now, because of your father’s business, could he get more gasoline or anything else than other people? Veteran: Probably but you know I wasn’t privy to that. Interviewer: Okay. Now, after you finished high school, were you still living at home? Veteran: I was. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. (00:08:16) Veteran: And I had no dependents. I was pretty free. I wasn’t engaged or anything like that. So, I was really very free to, you know, to leave. Of course, I had to get it by my mother and my dad. Interviewer: Now, what did they think of the idea of your joining? Veteran: Mother was always open for us to improve ourselves. And but my dad? You know, that was a little bit different because he said, “What does your mother think?” you know. And so, I had to get it past him. And I said, “You know, we will be supervised…” you know. So, in that �7 era, my dad—we had two brothers—dad seemed to cater to the boys and mother to the girls, the three girls. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So anyway, I got the permission from both of them that, okay, I could try out. Interviewer: Okay. (00:10:06) Veteran: So, I went to Wheeling enrollment, but they didn’t have an enrollment for women Marines in Wheeling so we had to go to Pittsburgh, which was 50 miles away. So, the—there was one other girl and—who was about to—enlisting. So, her dad volunteered to take us, the two of us, to Wheeling—or to Pittsburgh. And so, he knew his way around Pittsburgh pretty well. We went to the Marine enrollment, you know. And he walked in and he said, “These two girls want to be Marines.” So, we enlisted that day and then we were like on call for a month or two until we were… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: …notified. And so, then we— Interviewer: Now, when did you originally sign up? What year was that? Veteran: I do have it on my record there. In April, like April 14, in 1941. Interviewer: Or…’43? The record says ’43. ’41 was before Pearl Harbor. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So… Veteran: It wasn’t ’41. It was…Well, it would have been…Let’s see… �8 Interviewer: Well… Veteran: I signed up in ’43. Interviewer: Yes. Okay. So, we have that. That’s what the record says. So, we are good. So, April of ’43 you sign up and then do you go home then and wait for them to contact you? (00:12:22) Veteran: Yeah, exactly. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we—then they—I was notified in I think it was June. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then we went to…Went to—well, I think we went once more to Pittsburgh. Interviewer: Maybe Pittsburgh, yeah. Veteran: We went to see them and we were still in civilian clothes. And from there then we went to—we were notified to go to Hunter College in New York City. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we were on a Pullman. Interviewer: Because you took a train, yeah. Veteran: And we were met in New York by a woman Marine officer. And then from there, we went to Hunter College for I think it was 6 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. So, you are in bootcamp now. �9 Veteran: Basic, right. Interviewer: Okay. So, what was that training like? What happened to you at Hunter College? Veteran: You learn to march. We marched in the rain or whatever. There were men who were the callers and they taught us to march. Then we also were screened at that time. And we were fitted with uniforms. I would say we were beginning to feel like we were Marines, you know. (00:14:36) Interviewer: Okay. Now— Veteran: So, everybody was assigned and I was assigned to Marine headquarters in Arlington. Interviewer: Okay. Let’s talk a little bit more about that time at Hunter College. Now, when men trained as Marines, there is a lot of emphasis on discipline; following orders, punishing people who don’t do it. How much of that did you get? Was there—were they teaching you to follow orders? Veteran: We—that was very important and a very important part of our training. The discipline, you know. So, we—I think the one thing that I missed most was the privacy. You know, if you wanted to cry or you had to cry, there was—you know, we just didn’t have privacy. But anyway… Interviewer: Now, were you all in an open barracks? Veteran: At Hunter College we were just in dorms. Interviewer: Dorm rooms, okay. �10 Veteran: Yeah. When we left Hunter College, I think they were—it was very new places to barracks Interviewer: Yeah. (00:16:20) Veteran: And there were…I don’t know, I would say maybe a lot of us people who were working in civil service. They had a long barrack, a long row of rooms. And we were housed there and then as that opened up and we would be transferred by trucks—Marine trucks—to the city in Washington. Interviewer: So, were you— Veteran: To headquarters. It wasn’t that—we were in the Arlington or we were in, sometimes, we were in Maryland. And we would be transferred to wherever we were assigned. And I was Marine headquarters. And that’s just like right across from the Arlington Cemetery, really. You know, it’s on a hill. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, there I assigned the Marines—the male Marines—to their duty on their nights. And where other people worked. We—it was I think just, you know, assigning the men on their duties. Interviewer: So, you were in charge of just keeping track of duty assignments and who was supposed to be where. So, you were just in— (00:18:46) Veteran: I worked in an office. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: And that was my job. �11 Interviewer: Okay. Now, in that office, who else was in the office with you? Veteran: Probably 3 other Marine women and then the management was all male Marines. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were they sergeants or officers or…? Veteran: Well, what is the term for, you know, they are not—almost an officer but— Interviewer: Well, there is a warrant officer. Veteran: That’s it. Interviewer: Okay. There you go. See, she knows her stuff. Alright. Veteran: Yeah. And he was our—the, you know… Interviewer: He’s your supervisor? Veteran: The supervisor. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how did the male Marines there treat you? Veteran: Usually, they were very good. Of course, you know, they organized women to release more men. And, you know, so we took over. But on the whole, I didn’t encounter any, you know, resentment… Interviewer: Alright. (00:20:25) Veteran: …to women. In fact, I think they were so glad to have women around, you know because, you know, it got pretty boring. And they were probably not assigned for a very long time and then they’d be out, you know, so everything was a very short relationship. �12 Interviewer: Okay, so a lot of these men that you are dealing with come in for a short period of time and then are transferred out somewhere else. And a lot of them were new to the service or they had just gotten in and they had just left home and… Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And you are a nice person who can talk to them. Veteran: And I remember one incident. The people like myself, the women Marines, that were in very early in the organization, we would have the opportunity to go out on a subsistence [allowance] and many people in Washington D.C. were eager to make some money, rent out a room for four girls or something like that. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And so, we—before the barracks were finished in Henderson—that’s where the barracks were—we would have the opportunity to maybe go into a subsistence, what they called subsistence. (00:22:31) Interviewer: So, you are renting a room in a private home or apartment building or something. Veteran: Exactly. Interviewer: Yeah. And did you do that? Veteran: Yes. We did that from time to time. When they got—we first saw maybe a note in our luggage. And we—they would transfer us to a home. Interviewer: Okay. �13 Veteran: And maybe there would be four, you know, living in this home. And we would be able to come to the barracks that were accommodating some of the people who enlisted later on. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But there weren’t quite enough barracks yet for all the women Marines in Washington. So, you know, we had the opportunity to go into other places. Interviewer: Now, when you lived off base, did you live in Arlington or Washington or where were you? Veteran: Some of—most of them were in Washington. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And before we went to Washington, we were in, as I mentioned, Maryland. They had some—a lot of places, but I imagine were built for the…You know, the people who worked in what’s—what I am trying to say, that worked in my—in social security. (00:24:31) Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, while you are…So, when you are based at Arlington and you have your job and you are going in, did you have a lot of free time in the evenings? I mean, did you just work a day job? Or a night shift? Or what did you have? Veteran: Yeah, well we were all on a limited—I think it was 9 o’clock at night I think was the… Interviewer: Was that a curfew? You had to be in by 9? Veteran: Curfew, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. �14 Veteran: So, we had to be off the streets at that time. But to—we were—there were USO clubs and things to see other than—like the museums and so on. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, but when you were living off the base, did you still have to be inside by 9? Or did you have more freedom? Veteran: Oh definitely. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because they had, you know, security on the streets, you know. But what did they call them? Interviewer: Could be military police or— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: --Navy shore patrols and things like that. Veteran: Military police. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: And so, yes, everything was supervised. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how long were you at Arlington? (00:26:18) Veteran: In Washington D.C.? Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: 19 months. Interviewer: Okay. �15 Veteran: And then I volunteered to—when they opened up Honolulu, or Pearl Harbor, I volunteered to go. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It was all volunteer. Interviewer: Alright. Now before we get there, when you think about the time that you spent in Washington and that area, are there particular things that happened that stand out for you? Or people or events that you remember? Veteran: Well, we were—in Washington, there were a lot of important people coming into the city. Every time that happened and every holiday, it would be a big march, which was really a lot of the time that we did because—I shouldn’t say a lot of the time, but those were things that I think they wanted to impress on people coming in. And so, we did a lot of marching. Interviewer: Okay. So, they had the women Marines marching in parades or welcoming people. Veteran: Parades, right. Interviewer: Yeah, parades. Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Other than that, we—I was working in an office and had the opportunity to go to the barracks for our mess hall. And so, it was…Pretty much day to day we would be transferred when we were living out of the barracks—or I should say when we were transferred into the barracks and we would be transferred in a Marine truck into the, you know, city. Interviewer: Okay. (00:28:51) Veteran: So, Arlington is very close to Washington D.C. �16 Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, you know… Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, did—when you went to the mess hall, for instance, were you there with the men as well and everyone together? Veteran: No, it was all women. Interviewer: Okay. So, they kept you apart so that— Veteran: Oh yes. We were not—they had their own—they were in from Quantico. Interviewer: Okay, alright. Okay, so you made a trip to Annapolis. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, talk—tell us about that. Veteran: Well, it was just like an overnight. So, I don’t know how we were transferred. It must have been on a bus. And it cost—we had to pay for the transportation. And this one girl who was going with us, she could not come up with the money. And we said, “Well here, just call—get in touch with your parents.” She was from Portland, Oregon. And she said, “Well, I’ve never asked them for anything.” (00:30:30) Veteran: But anyway, we encouraged her and she did. So, I said, “Well, what do your parents do?” She said, “They are both attorneys.” And she was afraid to even ask for probably $20, you know. So anyway, they sent the money and so, yes. So, we just toured the Annapolis and all the men that we joined up with were all officers—ensigns, probably. And we were all enlisted. And that didn’t set very well with the people in Annapolis, you know. They said, “Well, you really should, you know, cater to the…. officers.” �17 Interviewer: Yeah. Well, they did not want officers and enlisted fraternizing. They did not do that. Veteran: Yeah. I remember that was—the women were all enlisted and the men were all officers. So, they were—we just toured the place. And I can’t remember any great meals or anything. We, you know, somewhere or another we—it’s been a long time ago, you know. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So, all I remember is we had a great time. Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you are on the base back in Arlington or in Washington, were there rules about personal relationships? I mean, were you allowed to date any of the men? (00:32:28) Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah. And most of the time, you know…Most of the time it was enlisted people with enlisted people. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But that’s not to say that there weren’t a lot of officers with enlisted women, you know. Interviewer: But there was not a problem with enlisted men and enlisted women going out or whatever. Veteran: No, no. In the private school in Annapolis, you know, they probably… Interviewer: Well, that was a little different because that’s the military academy. So, they are a little different there. But on your base, for the regular personnel, there was not a problem. �18 Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, during that 19 months you are in Washington, did you ever go back home? Or did you just— Veteran: Oh yes, we had liberty. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we would—most of the time, we were able to get home for Christmas, Thanksgiving maybe. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have any brothers in the service? Veteran: Yes, I had 2. Interviewer: And what did your brothers do? Veteran: My one brother was in the radio and he was—you know, they had a select[ive] service, which was really before Pearl Harbor. And he—there would be, you know, their name would be called and they would select. Interviewer: Right. Well, like drafted? (00:34:18) Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So, he was in radio at that time. My other brother—and he was married and had a child. So, he, you know, didn’t touch those people until long—maybe ’44? Interviewer: Yeah. �19 Veteran: You know? And so, he went right into the infantry. And he went overseas. Interviewer: Did he go to Europe or to the Pacific? Or…? Where did he go? Veteran: Alsace. Interviewer: Okay, so France. Yeah. Veteran: And I can’t…I would have to… Interviewer: Okay. But he was in the European theater. Veteran: Oh definitely. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I was in Washington when my one brother was going through to go overseas. So, that was nice. We met: he with a buddy and me with a friend, a girlfriend. And you know we sat around and didn’t do much, just until his train was up. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: That was…Yeah, he—it was good to see him before he left, you know. But they were—they both got through their Army and they were both in the Army. Interviewer: Okay. (00:36:17) Veteran: And also, the one boy that—one brother—that was in radio, he too went overseas about the same time. So, he was stateside quite a while. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then he went over. And they both survived the war. �20 Interviewer: Very good. Okay. Veteran: But my one brother said he felt his time was near being—losing his life in some way because he saw so many die or the sister ship he saw go down. Interviewer: Okay. So, he was in a convoy going across the Atlantic and another ship sank? Okay. Veteran: And just to see your friends, you know…It was pretty…So, he felt his time would be… Interviewer: Yeah. Well, if he was in the infantry late in the war, there was a lot of hard fighting in northeastern France and then even going into Germany. So, the area he was in was hotly contested in ’44 into early ’45. So, he would have—he might have seen a lot there. Yeah. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So anyway, when—I guess I did say that we now prepared to go to Pearl Harbor. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: To Honolulu. Interviewer: Right. Okay, so how did they get you to Pearl Harbor? (00:38:13) Veteran: How did we get there? Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Oh, on a ship 5 days. I went on the Matsonia, which was a luxury—an old—luxury liner. 5 days. Sick the whole time. And but when we disembarked, it was beautiful. The highlight �21 of my career, you might say, because I was able to walk off the ship. And we were greeted…300 sailors, you know. And everybody welcomed us. And they had built a barracks. Our barracks were ready for us. Interviewer: Now, was that right there by Pearl Harbor or around that area? Veteran: It was on Pearl Harbor. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I—at first, I was assigned to the post office, which was right on Pearl Harbor. But that was in, you know, ’44. You could still see the smoke. But I didn’t get near the Atlantic. Interviewer: Well, the Arizona? Veteran: The Arizona. Interviewer: Yeah, because that was the ship that blew up and part of it was still sticking up. Yeah. Now, were you the first women Marines there? Veteran: Not the first, but probably the third group. Interviewer: Okay. And then about how many women Marines were at that base, do you think? Veteran: At the base? Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: I don’t…I wouldn’t venture to say. Interviewer: Do you know how many women Marines came out in your group? When you landed, how many of you were there? (00:40:27) �22 Veteran: Yeah, I am trying to think about how many were on the ship, you know, going over. I will backtrack there and say from Washington we went to San Diego to train. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: For 6 weeks. Interviewer: So, what kind of training did you get in San Diego? Veteran: Well, we had to make sure we knew how to swim. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We exercised. That was—and that’s, you know, a real base for the Marines, for the male Marines. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, then from there, it’s always a time when you have to just sit and wait for the right time to go. And so, we mailed—we left from there from some…It wasn’t San Francisco because we came back from San Francisco. So, it was…I don’t know. Interviewer: Probably out of San Diego or Long Beach. Veteran: Probably. Interviewer: Or some place, yeah. Veteran: Someplace near San Diego, you know. And as I said, 5 days on the ship. Interviewer: Okay. �23 Veteran: And so, then we were assigned as I say. And left in the barracks, double deck barracks. And we had to, you know, have our night—you know, 2-4 you had to have your…You probably can tell me the terms of these things at night. It’s hard for me to pull it all out. (00:42:54) Interviewer: So, they have—you’re talking about bed checks, or you have to be in bed by a certain time? Veteran: Well, and you were always assigned, just like I was assigning people in Washington. Well, over there, I was being assigned. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And you had to, you know, peruse—go through all these—barracks and, you know, you’d usually get on a 2-hour shift. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And mine always seemed to be 2-4, you know. I was always kind of hesitant to…You know, I wasn’t too brave about walking up and down these corridors and, you know, hear all these… Interviewer: Okay. So, you are basically making sure everyone else is where they are supposed to be. Veteran: Exactly. Interviewer: And nothing funny is happening in the barracks. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. �24 Veteran: Yeah. So, sometimes I would, you know, encourage someone to go with me, which was crazy. But anyway, I was—you know, you hear all these funny sounds at night, you know. And one of the things I do remember was the night before we—are you looking at something? (00:44:41) Interviewer: No, I just saw somebody walking around out front. Veteran: Oh, okay. The night before we left, everybody was bedded down and you would hear this voice in the darkness preparing us for what we would encounter overseas, and what we might encounter. And it was such a wonderful talk to prepare us, you know. I think that was maybe that one time that I thought this could be really scary, you know. And before that, maybe I thought well, it’s just an adventure to get over to Honolulu. But she pointed out how important this particular venture was. So, but anyway, I was over in Honolulu. That was the city. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: And Pearl Harbor was where the post office was. So, we—I was just over there for 7 months until the war ended. Interviewer: Right. Now, while you were there, could you get liberty and go to the beach and go into town and…? (00:46:29) Veteran: We had liberty, yeah. you had to apply for it, you had to have a—you know—pass. And you had to present that wherever you were. Interviewer: Okay, now— Veteran: Wherever you went, you had a time limit. �25 Interviewer: When you went off the base, did you wear your uniform or did you get to wear civilian? Veteran: We could wear civilian. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now— Veteran: And it was a great time to do it too, you know. Just to pretend like you were there visiting. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But there were a lot of people over there who lived over there, you know. And they would invite us for parties and, you know…And it just so happened that I had a distant cousin who was a chaplain. And so, he had a lot of contacts. And so, there were I think just more or less that there were a lot of opportunities maybe to meet other people, to—and to meet some of the people who lived there. Interviewer: Right. (00:48:11) Veteran: And this chaplain took us to—took me—to a place like a convent of nuns. And I think now I wish I had a picture of that. But anyway, and being over in Pearl Harbor, they did give us opportunities to visit Diamond Head and you know all of the… Interviewer: The tourist places? Veteran: Absolutely. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So, I know I—it’s been hard for me to pull up this thing at 99. �26 Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: You know, but so I just hope you have been… Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you meet your husband in Hawaii? Veteran: Yes, at the—a friend of his…He was in the Army and a friend of his was to marry a woman Marine. So, I was invited by her and my husband was invited by the male, the groom. And it was in a little, you know, church. And then we had a little reception after. And I…When I met my husband at the reception, we just kind of took to each other. And he managed to—I don’t know how he did it—but we were all transported by truck, except the officers would have a jeep. And so, he took one of the jeeps afterwards and took me back to the back barracks. And he was up for—what do they call it? You know, when you have to report for being like AOL— (00:50:54) Interviewer: AWOL? Well yeah, so he is... Veteran: Or something like that, you know. So, an officer called him up and so he had to explain what happened. And but anyway, that was in June. And then the war ended in… Interviewer: In August. August? Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, August 15th. Interviewer: Now, what branch of the service was your husband in? Veteran: He was in intelligence. Interviewer: Was he in the Army? Veteran: Army. �27 Interviewer: Army, yeah. Okay. Alright. And was—and he was an enlisted man? Veteran: He was. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: That’s why he got in trouble for taking the jeep, right? Veteran: Yeah. But this distant cousin of mine who was a chaplain, you know, he was just so this man, but I didn’t know whether I really wanted…There were other things in the world that I thought maybe I might like to do, you know. And the service was—the Marine Corps—well, all of the services were very generous with education and GI Bill and all that. (00:52:27) Veteran: You know? So, I don’t know whether I would have agreed to get married at that time or not. But as it happened, the war ended and my husband was—had been in the service for four years so he was one of the first to be discharged. And he came back I think in September and I came back in November on another ship, the Solace. That was a hospital ship. And I was only sick for two or three days because they had some, I don’t know, saline solution or something to get me on my feet. And so, I kind of enjoyed the—you know, the… Interviewer: You got a good ocean voyage this time. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Now, where was your husband from? Veteran: Michigan but… Interviewer: Okay. �28 Veteran: Wyandotte. Interviewer: Alright. Now, had you—were you writing to each other or stayed in communication? Veteran: Yeah. I guess we…But we had planned to get married. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And—which we did. I was…I came back in November and we were married in November, the last part of November. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, then it’s whole different… Interviewer: Alright. Well, what kinds of things did you—after you got out of the military, you got married. Now, did you take a job after that? Or what did you do? (00:54:35) Veteran: For 9 months, my husband worked for the Veterans Affairs. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: In Wyandotte. And I learned how to cook. I think he was tired of poached eggs in the winter and strawberries and ice cream in the summertime. So, he presented me with a couple good house keeping books. And so, but I still wanted to do something more. Take advantage of the opportunities that was offered. Well, he wasn’t open to a 4-year college, so we settled for 2years of business college in Detroit. I don’t know whether you are familiar with downtown Detroit, but it was in the Pugh building. Interviewer: Okay. �29 Veteran: So, we graduated from there. Business, bookkeeping, type shorthand. I don’t think that shorthand is—people don’t even know what it is. Interviewer: They don’t learn shorthand anymore. Not too often. Veteran: We learned shorthand. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:56:07) Veteran: And, you know, men had secretaries. Now, the men have their own computers and do it themselves, you know. But anyway, my husband didn’t—after we graduated, he went with Ford, I went with GM. And so, that—I don’t think he was very comfortable that we were separated by the different automotive companies. He thought maybe I should be, you know, where he was in Ford. But anyway, that worked out fine. And I was in GM overseas. That was my—and I was doing secretarial work. I don’t know whether you want that. Interviewer: Well, I was just curious. Did you continue to work after you had children? Or did you leave when you started to have kids? Veteran: When I—after we were married about 4 or 5 years, I thought yeah, it’s time. You know, we should have…In that time, we had gone to business college. And I had worked a couple years. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And I…So, we had—I stopped working and we had 3 children. And then I thought, oh, I want to go back to school or something as soon as that first one is able to stay home by herself if she had a cold, you know. So, then I started. Madonna College was, you know, there in the city that we were living in. We were living in Livonia at that time. �30 Interviewer: Right. (00:58:38) Veteran: So, I went and I talked to these nuns. And I said, “I don’t think I am going to have anymore children.” And I wanted her to say well that’s fine, you know. And so, I said, “I just thought maybe I would like to get a little more education.” And she said, “Well, what would you like to do?” And I said—the only thing I could think of was home ec, you know. And she said, “Well, we will start with history and English.” You know? So, I did part time in those subjects. And then—from then, I went to…We had the—I don’t—I think it was maybe the city or I don’t know who it was that offered this occupational therapy assistant. Excuse me. Yeah. So, I thought that sounds like what I would really like to do. And it was only a one-year course. And then you could be certified as an assistant. Interviewer: Alright. Now, we were talking about the education you got after you had kids. And you went into occupational therapy. So, you did a one-year program for that. And then, did you get a job in that field? (01:00:48) Veteran: I got a job with—in physical at—with the VA hospital. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that was in Allen Park, at that time. And I worked and I have some pictures of that. I have…Let’s see. From there I think I was there four years. And then I went back to school. That occupational therapy course was given at Schoolcraft College. And it was the first year that they had the… Interviewer: That program? �31 Veteran: That program. Yeah. And there was a—our tutor was from Wayne State. She came and she was very good. Registered…You know… Interviewer: Nurse? Veteran: Occupational therapist. Interviewer: Occupational therapist, okay. (01:02:18) Veteran: But anyway, so after that, then I went back to Schoolcraft and I just got another degree in general studies. And then I… Interviewer: Well, did you continue to work? Did you go back to work again? Veteran: No…I think for a while I went to Schoolcraft. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then, we had a Right to Read program and I went through that at Madonna. And then…You know, I can’t remember. Oh, well then when I did get through the—I graduated from Madonna College with a degree. And then I did substitute teaching. I thought, you know, I was like 54 years old then. And I surely didn’t want to take on a class, you know, full time. So, I remember the first time I went in to have the—you know…Yeah, and so the next after that day— after—the teacher wanted me to come back, you know, the next day. And I said, “I don’t think they like me.” And she said, “Oh, that’s the way they always act.” So, then I made the adjustment and I—you know, I did substitute teaching for quite a while. (01:04:47) Interviewer: Okay. And where were you doing that? Which towns? Veteran: Where what? �32 Interviewer: Where were you substitute teaching? Veteran: Oh, just in Livonia. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you doing high school or elementary? Veteran: Yes, it was one of those from kindergarten through high school. Interviewer: Oh, okay. All in one school? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: So, I could have the, you know, the advantage of every one. Then substitute teaching kind of dwindled. Maybe—I don’t know why? But maybe some people dropped out. There wasn’t that need. And so, then I went into…Oh, like recreation therapy. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You know, like that type of thing with some of the older…what do I say? You know, when they have occupational and also exercise. Interviewer: Right. (01:06:25) Veteran: Different activities. In several different… Interviewer: Yeah. With hospitals or— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Alright. Now, so you did a lot of different things after you got out of the military. �33 Veteran: Why, I did. I did. And then for a hobby, I had always—as a kid—little girls were always encouraged to take piano, you know. So, I did a little of that. And when—after all these other things, I decided to—you know, to play piano you just had to keep practicing all the time. So, I took up keyboard. And I really enjoyed that. And I could make, you know, music sound pretty nice. But anyway, that was…But then, you know, things started to go. My eyes—I couldn’t see as well as I used to be able to. So… Interviewer: Alright. Well, to think back to the time that you spent in the Marine Corps, what do you think you learned from that experience or how did that effect you? (01:08:20) Veteran: What did I learn about it? Interviewer: Well, from being in the Marines, yeah. Veteran: For being…Just as I wrote here, and it was—this is what I learned, I think. You can read that, I can’t. Interviewer: You can go ahead. Veteran’s Daughter: It says—Mom said her memorable experience was: Being involved in World War 2 as a member of the Marine Corps was a once in a lifetime experience. Learning about discipline and how to carry out orders were very much a part of our day. During my two and a half years of service, most of which were spent in the clerical field, I was assigned to Arlington, Virginia, and Hawaii. Out of this wartime experience came lasting friendships, the most significant of which was meeting my husband in Hawaii. �34 Interviewer: Okay. And then, while we were off camera here, you also mentioned that at least one of your friends from Arlington kept in touch with you. And gave you a wedding present? Or…What was that story? Veteran: What was your question? Interviewer: Well, I just wanted you to tell us about how she found you or how you… Veteran: Oh, the wedding gift. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:10:02) Veteran: Betty Mitchell. And she was in Baltimore. Had horses. And so, she was going from coast to coast to visit her former Marines. And I think got back—our stop in downtown Detroit was—probably would have been her first. So, she was there for overnight. And we took her to the Statler and had another boy—she wasn’t married. So, we got her one of our friends so four of us, you know. Had a lovely evening at the Statler Hotel. And then when she left, yes, she said, “Don’t you have any china?” And I said, “No. You know, we were just married like that…Married in the uniforms when we got back.” So, then she sent these Audubon plates with the Audubon birds on them. And Amy has these. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: So, that was…You know…But if you look in that envelope that has the…Yeah, the— well, I just wanted to… (01:12:18) Interviewer: There you are. Let’s see, that is a graduation picture. Now, do you have— there’s the larger portrait picture of her in uniform. Can we pull that one? Because I can �35 just…That first one there, yeah. Because that one…And then that is her in her flashy Marine Corps uniform. Alright. Veteran: I—when I was discharged, I was a sergeant. Interviewer: A sergeant, yes. You have only got your one stripe in that picture. But you got three. Okay. And then the wedding picture. Alright. Now, let’s see if we can get that one there. There we go. Now, one miscellaneous question while I think of it: did the Marine Corps have limits on how long your hair could be? Did they make women cut their hair or just…? Veteran: I think it had to be above the shoulder. But they were very strict at first, you know? What the women wore and the hat was designed by…I wish I could tell you the name…Something like Knox or, you know, isn’t there… Interviewer: But by a fashion designer or…? Veteran: Well, they really had a nice uniform. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Well, all of this makes for a very good story, so I am just going to close here and thank you for taking the time to share it today. Veteran: Well, I’ll thank you for spending the time and coming. Interviewer: Alright. (01:14:33) �36 On file at the Women in Military Service For America Memorial: Poster: �37 United States Marine Corps Women's Reserve: Brother and sister newspaper announcement • Sep 1942: �38 Immunization card • Jun 29, 1943: �39 Tribute paid to Women Marine Corps • 1944: �40 I'm in the Marine Corps: �41 Moving into the new barracks at Henderson Hall • 1943: �42 Rita E Vogler • 1943: �43 Farwell parade for Gen Waller 1943-1944: �44 Franciscan Monastery • Aug 13, 1944: �45 All American kids! • 1944: �46 Rita in DC • Aug 1944: �47 Sightseeing in DC • Aug 13, 1944: A night out • 1944: �48 Rita and Nancy Saunders • 1944: �49 Dinner out with my pals • 1944: Fooling around • 1943: �50 On the base • 1943: 1943: �51 1944: �52 When one of your Marine Corps buddies has a brother at Annapolis! • 1944: Sightseeing in Annapolis, MD • 1944: �53 Apr 10, 1945: Enjoying a lunch out • 1944: �54 Mar 1945: �55 Father Bernard and me • 1945: Fr. Bernard knew a brother of a girl in this group. He brought us all together for a casual afternoon to socialize. • 1945: �56 Honolulu • 1945: 1945: �57 The day I would meet my future husband at this wedding • 1945: �58 Leaving the wedding: �59 Honorable Discharge • Nov 16, 1945: �60 United States Marine Corps Women's Reserve: �61 Our Wedding Picture 11/27/45: �62 After discharge Bob and I attended Detroit Commercial College • 1946: I attended Schoolcraft College to get my certification as an Occupational Therapy Assistant • Jul 25, 1969: �63 Associate degree in General Studies • Aug 15, 1974: I continued my education at Madonna College getting a BA in Social Science • May 5, 1977: �64 I live at Botsford Commons - Farmington Hills, MI now. Here are a few of our resident veterans that gathered to mark Veteran's Day: �65 My Marine insignia pin • 1943: �66 Women's Military Memorial: � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AdamsR2357V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Adams, Rita Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06 Title A name given to the resource Adams, Rita (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Rita (Vogler) Adams was born in Wheeling, West Virginia, on February 7th, 1922. She grew up during the Great Depression. She lived in Wheeling until the age of 21. Rita attended high school at a girls’ private school, which she graduated from in 1940. After high school, Rita worked at a telephone company for 2 years. She then enlisted in the Marine Corps on April 14th, 1943 during World War 2. She completed her basic training at Hunter College in New York City, New York. After completing her training, Rita was assigned to work in an office at Marine headquarters in Arlington, Virginia. After 19 months in her position in Arlington, Virginia, she volunteered to be sent to work at Pearl Harbor in Honolulu, Hawaii. Prior to being sent to Honolulu, Rita was sent to train for 6 weeks in San Diego, California, to ensure that she was able to swim well and was physically fit. Her husband, Robert Adams, was in the Army, and she first met him while they were both stationed in Hawaii. Rita was honorably discharged from the military in 1945 after World War 2 ended, at which point she was a sergeant. Rita and Robert were married on November 27th, 1945. After leaving the service in 1945, Rita eventually attended 2 years of business college in Detroit, Michigan. She then completed training at Schoolcraft College to become an occupational therapy assistant. Rita later attended Madonna College, where she earned her bachelor’s degree in social science. She worked as a substitute teacher in schools in Livonia, Michigan, towards the end of her career. Rita currently lives in Farmington Hills, Michigan. Note: This video has images of photos and documents embedded it that help to illustrate different parts of her story. The images are from her personal collection. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource George, Amy M. (Interviewer) Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/62f730f46af0d56face6c0801d345dae.mp4 8ed28ce186607426c2917e9fa924f180 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cd996ce62a08a4bb387094de17345219.pdf 64bc0901560300ec338b52685d4192bb PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam Lan Chi Le Length of Interview: 29:00 (00:00) JS: We’re here today with Lan Chi Le of Rockford, Michigan. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Now, can you start by telling us just a bit about your own background. For instance, where were you born? LCL: Well, my name is Lan Chi. I was born in Saigon, back in 1970. JS: And who were your parents? LCL: My mom is [Nah Phen] Li. She originate from My Tho City, that’s where she grew up from. And she has four brothers and four sisters, and they live in quite poor conditions, that she decided to move to the city, hoping that she could find a better job. And better pay. And when she moved to Saigon, back then, she meet my dad and that’s where she was working at, as a waitress. And that’s how she met my dad. My dad’s name is Joseph [Enab]. I know that he was there on a sub-contract, for about six months. His title, as far as I know, he worked for a company called GICC, for the Republic of Vietnam. His association was a Chief Management Officer. And it had something to do with pipeline, construct of pipeline. And pretty much road construction, that’s what he mainly do. (01:30) JS: Okay. Kind of a civil engineering job essentially. LCL: Yeah. JS: Now did your mother speak any English at that time? LCL: Um, she knew just a little bit. Enough to communicate verbally. Um, I guess that’s the only way to communicate with each other. And they know each other for just a short amount of time. Plus my mom just went to the city, so English was really tough for her at that time too. Yup, so that how it go. JS: Did she get a job with his company or did she continue to work in the restaurant, or what… LCL: Well, after she stay with him, she quit working. And just stayed around at home, and helping him out, and things like that. That’s pretty much it. JS: And then he was just there for six months and then he left? LCL: Yes. �JS: All right. But he did make some effort to recognize her as his partner there, whatever. You got some kind of documents? (02:29) LCL: Yeah, well, he knew that my mom got pregnant. That’s why before he left the country, he left behind his VIA number. Some kind of employee number. Along with, he gave my mom some money, to start a life there by herself, because he knew he wouldn’t be back. For some reason. Which I’m not quite sure why. And also, he give mom a document showing what he do and things like that, in case of someday I went looking for him. I would have all those documents set aside. JS: All right. Then what happened to her after he left? (03:12) LCL: When he left to go back to America, I think my mom was quite depressed. Because now she has given birth to me, she’s a single mom. But I guess, she has to go on with her life. She used the money and bought a house and raised me up in that house. Until the day we left in 1985. We still lived in that same house, in Saigon. JS: All right. So you were living in Saigon then for those early years of your life. Do you remember when the communist took over? Do you remember any of that, cause you were still pretty young. LCL: Yes, I was only about four, into five years old at that time. So too young for me to remember anything, but I did remember, or memorize one small event that I remember that one day when I was up in the balcony, upstairs playing. That must be right around, or just before the communists took over. There was one day where I see a lot of helicopters and jets flew by our home. I didn’t know why so many of them flew by, but I noticed that. And it scare me. Cause those engines were loud and there were many of them, not just one or two. Continuously, they fly right by our home. (04:33) LCL: Later I find out that we live twenty minutes away from the airport and with all the jets and the helicopters going on at that time, I think it’s just kind of a last minute before the communists took over. So they did some kind of wrap up or something. Over there. JS: Right. Cause the last of the American personnel were being evacuated and some of the Vietnamese were being brought out at that time, so you had an airlift out of the airport, and then the last part of it off of the roof of the US embassy there. So that was going on. All right. Now, but your mother was able to stay in her house, then, when the communists took over? They didn’t come and take it away from her? (05:09) LCL: They tried to threaten her, a few different times. Well, simply because I’m AmerAsian, half American, half Vietnamese, they used me as a target to suppress my mom. After the �communists took over, my mom had a hard time finding jobs. Anywhere. She just couldn’t be able to find anything. Um, simply because of me. Even my aunt, who lived together with my mom, also had a hard time finding a job too. Took her a total of about five years or more to be able to find a decent job in the hospital, but just as a receptionist or more like a security, by the gate. To admit patients in. And the reason she got that job was because she got a best friend that worked inside there, that get her in. Otherwise, finding a job for her would be impossible. Yep. (06:00) JS: All right. Now during that time, did you have problems getting things to eat? Or getting clothing? Things like that. Did you have enough money to survive? LCL: Well, my dad left behind probably not a whole lot of money. It, just enough for us to get a house, but, um, my mom have to find survival, someway, somehow. Right after 1975, our life was really really hard. I remember that we didn’t even have enough rice in the house to fulfill everybody’s needs. We had to substitute with yucca root. And sometimes yams and just a little bit of rice. Half of, a part of a meal of rice, but those meals. Or oatmeal. Just to get by. Yep. And so it was really really tough, the first few years after the communists took over. JS: All right. Now you’re living there for about ten years after they take over. Did you go to school during that time? (07:04) LCL: Yes, I was fortunate enough to attend school. Even though we were really poor. But I loved school anyway, so I went to school daily. And it’s um, because I am very different than the rest of group, I always got picked on. By a lot of bullies in school. They, um, they always picked on me and call me by all different names. And I have to go along with it, get used to it, because I know who I am. And I cannot change it. JS: Now, did the teachers or the people running the school treat you differently, because you were Amer-Asian? (07:50) LCL: Um, I didn’t notice a whole lot, which is a good thing. Like I said, they probably focused more on my mom and my aunt, who are looking for jobs. And I was too young for them to do anything, anyway. At school, they might say something, and I just don’t recall, a whole lot of it. But I know that, in school, with lecture, with history books regarding Vietnamese history, a lot of hatred towards America. I have to study, sometime give speech telling in front of the class, that I, you know, hate America. Just to go along with it, because I have to. And every day, to school, I have to wear a red scarf around my neck, symbolizing that I’m not just a student, at school, but also a Ho Chi Minh loyalty follower. Um. Yep, so… JS: And did you have to have a picture of Ho chi Minh in your house too? (08:50) LCL: Yes. We had a small picture hanging on the wall and it was required for every single family to have one. Without having one, we might end up in jail. So, right after the communists �took over, the picture was right away distributed by the government and it had to be hang up on the wall. The thing is we had to take down the…before the…what is it, the RN, the Republic of Vietnam flag. But my mom didn’t get rid of that. I found out, one day, she hid it on the top of the dresser, upstairs. It was all rolled up carefully and hidden away. She never throwed it away though. Which is something that I really admire her, up until this point. She still kept that. And hopefully, I can read that in her mind, she probably hoping to see if America would come back someday, to rescue the country out of the disaster like that. (09:42) JS: Okay. Now over the course of the, those ten years, before 1985, did life change? Did things kind of get better once your mother got a job? Or were there still a lot of the problems that you’d had all along? LCL: Even though my mom found a job at the hospital, income coming in just basic. We just have barely enough. To feed in the house, but not extra. The years get worse, especially around ’78 to ’82, 1982, where sometimes we didn’t have enough food supplies in the house, my mom’s clothing sell, furniture, anything that’s valuable. Anything, just to get buy, to have food in the house. So it was really really tough, for all of us. JS: All right. Now how did you wind up being able to come to America? (10:41) LCL: Well, we heard of a program called ODP (Orderly Departure Program). It’s a program called Organization for Departure and it’s, um, my mom heard about the program and right away she gathered all of our personal information and put it in an application and submit it. But it took us a total of over three years, before we got the ticket to America. So it take some time. But we got it. JS: Now did you have to pay for the plane tickets yourself or was there a charitable organization… LCL: No, we had… JS: The Americans paid for it? LCL: Yeah, yeah. The American organization paid for all that. Which is wonderful. The funny part, is that when we submit an application, they didn’t require a birth certificate or anything that prove my dad is, you know, dad of me. We, what they have is like an immigration officer, they would put me in the office and look at me, examining me, to see if I have anything that look like American, and that’s all there is to it. To prove for me, to be able to go to America. (11:52) JS: Now, how do they actually get you to America? Do you fly and where did you fly to? LCL: Yes. They booked tickets for me, my mom, and my sister. Three of us. But we didn’t, we couldn’t fly straight through to America. We have to stop by Philippine, Bantayan Island, for �six months. They put us in a training program called, what they called “Organized Culture,” something. A program, for six months. To train us so we could be prepared before we come to America. So learn like ESL English, and how every day life here. So when we came, we don’t have to be shocked. Or, you know, just to be ready. JS: Now they probably couldn’t prepare you for snow, though. (12:45) LCL: Uh, nope. (laughs) Uh, honestly, when we came here to America, the first thing that really amazed me was snow. Cause in Vietnam, the weather always very warm, to humidity. The eighty’s, ninety’s. But when we came here, to actually see snow falling down to the ground was amazing. I remember the first time when I spot snow, I ran out there in bare foot. I didn’t know it was going to be that cold! Yeah, but it was a wonderful experience, yep. JS: Let’s talk a little bit more about that orientation, or that thing you were doing in the Philippines. Were you there with a lot of other Amer-Asians children? LCL: Yes. Many just Amer-Asian families. They built like temporary homes for us. Each cubicle would divide into ten sections. We would live in each section, like that. Each family would put in. It was a little inconvenient but it was just something to get by. They distributed us food, drink, just basic needs. Weekly, and we walked to school and there’d be Pilipino teachers there to help us, teaching English. (13:54) JS: And did you get to know any of the other kids at all, or learn anything about what their experiences were like? LCL: Yes. One thing I did notice. I had a lot of Amer-Asian friends. But the thing is, they never mention anything about their past. Probably because many of them have very sad memories, so they didn’t bring it up for me. And I understand that. And even I had bad, even back then, I been bullied, called names and things like that. So I just kind of put that behind my mind. JS: So they were all looking forward… LCL: Yeah, forward. Pretty much, yep. Looking ahead. (14:27) JS: Now was your sister also Amer-Asian, or was she just Vietnamese? LCL: Yeah, my mom remarried, right after the communists took over. So my sister was purely one hundred percent Vietnamese. JS: But then did that marriage break up, or… �LCL: Um, well, when she came to America, he didn’t want to come along, so he decided to stay. My step-father decide to stay behind. I didn’t know why, but there must be a reason for it. Yep, so my mom and me and my sister were the only three that came to America. JS: All right. Now once you finish the six months in the Philippines, did you come directly to Michigan or did you settle somewhere else first? (15:11) LCL: Um, honestly, we didn’t know where we was gonna end up at. I didn’t even know that there was fifty some states in America. It just so new for me. The last month before we were headed to America, I knew that we were going to settle in Michigan. I didn’t know what Michigan state was like at all. I didn’t know whether there would be any Vietnamese family around. I remember that in November of 1985, right when we came into Gerald Ford International Airport, and we came to, and we saw a group of people that sponsored, and they welcome us in a very warm way. Make our heart warm up right away, because we were so nervous, when we come down to the airport, because we didn’t know what was going to happen. Who was going to take us home, or where we going to go next. Like that. So. It was a warm welcome, from this organization. They’re from Hamilton Reformed Church, and that was where we settled for about five years, before we moved to Holland, Michigan. (16:14) JS: Okay. Now what was the experience like for your mother, as far as you could tell? Did she adjust more or less easily than you did? LCL: When she came, she cried a lot. Because she missed her family. In Vietnam. She cried. I cried. You know, we have family that’s still left in Vietnam, that we don’t know whether we can be able to come back someday to see them, or not. And so it was tough on both of us. My sister was too little to know anything, so she is fine. But my mom, because she is a single mother, she has to work even harder. You know, when she tried to, when she first came, she have to try to get a driver’s license, learn to drive, get to work every day. And attend every night ESL class, to gain more of her English language knowledge. And it took her a few years. And not only that, she tried to learn the rules, and so that way, when the five years time is up, she can take the test to become a US citizen and she worked so hard that she achieved that, after five years. (17:25) JS: What kind of work was she doing? What kind of job did she get? LCL: Yeah, the first job of her was at Bil Mar factory, down at Zeeland, Boekeloo, Zeeland. Doing like Sara Lee meat, packaging, things like that. She worked there for about eleven to twelve years, in that factory. So it’s been a long time that she worked there. And after that, she decided to move to Holland and switch jobs to JB Labs, right on Riley Street, in Holland, working with medicines, until she retired, now a couple of months ago. But that whole entire time that she was here, she work at companies, one after another. (18:03) �JS: Okay. And did you start going to school here, as soon as you got here? LCL: Yes. When I came to Hamilton, that was the school I attend and that’s where I graduate, in 1990. At the high school. And I was actually really proud of myself because I know who I am, so I work a lot harder than anybody else. And I graduated as the top ten in my class. Which was, I was just very very proud at that time. You know, I work really hard, and then after that I attend Western (Michigan) University, in Kalamazoo, as an accounting degree and I graduated in ’94. So. JS: Now when you first got to that school, was it easy to make friends, or did kids not know what to do with you? (18:47) LCL: Yeah, it was really tough. I have to learn English from the beginning. Even though I have a training, a basic training in Philippine, but remember, we got Philippine teachers here, they got very heavy accents. And when we came here, it was like we totally learned a different language all over again. And it was very tough for me. But thanks for some of the teachers at Hamilton High School, they would set a few hours aside every day just for me and a few others kids, like Laotian, Thailand kids, things like that. To teach them more of the basic English. So that that way we could easily catch on, you know, the following year, into the regular classroom. You know. So it’s a helping out tremendously for me. For having that class. JS: Now were there any issues of discrimination, or people that treated you differently because you were Amer-Asian, or did that not really come up for you? (19:45) LCL: Here in America, you mean? Um, one thing I’ve noticed, honestly, is in Vietnam, I was considered to be a foreigner, you know, pretty much because I didn’t look like them. When I came here they don’t consider me American. They consider me Vietnamese. So it’s a little bit difficult for me to adjust in, to fit in. But eventually I get used to it, and up until now, because my English gets better, it’s just easier to cope and fit in, so that’s much easier a whole bunch. But the first couple of years was really difficult for me. Especially with English. They couldn’t understand what I was talking about. I couldn’t understand what they was talking about, to me. So it was challenging, yep. (20:30) JS: All right. Now is your husband himself, is he Vietnamese? LCL: Yeah. He is one hundred percent Vietnamese. I met him here in Holland, right after the five years when we moved to Holland after Hamilton. And I’ve been with him since. JS: And did his family have any issues with your being Amer-Asian, or… LCL: Oh, no. They are a wonderful family. Yeah, they accepted me in a very welcome way. So we are here, we are all a minority anyway so they didn’t have any discrimination or whatsoever going on. And my husband was always a very strong supporter of me. He comfort �me whenever I needed him, whenever I feel blue, or when I’m not comfortable in front of the people or like today’s interview for example. He talked and comforted me a lot, and just get me to feel better. Yeah, so very supportive. (21:30) JS: All right. Now do you pay much attention or listen to news about Vietnam, or what’s going on over there? LCL: Yes. While I watch national news almost every day, everything that was going on, especially to Vietnam. And not just Vietnam nowadays. I pay attention to almost every other country that America get involved in or so. It just a learning experience for me, day after day. JS: Would you like to go back to visit Vietnam at some point? LCL: I would love to go back to visit Vietnam. Well, first thing, to go back to visit my family, relatives, but I also would like to see if I can help any of the Amer-Asians that are still left behind there, because they were mostly in orphanage. They didn’t have any documents proving that they were, you know, half blood. JS: Right. (22:23) LCL: Um, so they got stuck in Vietnam. And I heard there are still several thousands of them, still in Vietnam. JS: Although by now, they’d be adults. LCL: Yeah. They’d got married and have children and everything. But they, very poor. No organization whatsoever supported them. No relatives supported them. So they pretty much on their own. And of course the community over there has not supported them, neither. So it’s very tough for them. JS: Now do you, or your mother, have any communication with your relatives back in Vietnam? LCL: Yes. We contact each other very regularly. As a matter of fact, by in 1997, my husband and I and my oldest child went back there for a month to visit. And that was a great experience. I got to visit his hometown. He got to visit my hometown. So it was a wonderful experience for us. And we would love, and looking forward, to go back there again some day. (23:17) JS: Okay. So the Vietnamese government is perfectly happy to have you come back as a tourist and spend money? LCL: Yes. Um, they would love to see us come back again, because I think right now the commerce is opening up a lot more to the tourists, because they know they we will bring home cash. Or bring home financially to help family. And that would help the economy too, so yeah, �it’s a lot changing than before. Much better, I think. But still to go back there and support the communist, I don’t think so, nope. JS: What did life seem to be like for people, when you went back in ’97? Were there…how was life there sort of different from how it is here? (24:04) LCL: Um, when I go back, I was really happy seeing my family, but I don’t feel like I fit in anymore. When I go back there, they look at me totally as a tourist, as an international person, you know, as a foreigner, and not a Vietnamese. Until I opened my mouth and start speaking in Vietnamese and they were shocked, seeing that I speak Vietnamese. But of course, they don’t treat me like any Vietnamese at all. Which is all right with me, I don’t mind. (laughs) JS: Now did you just go to Saigon when you were there? Or where is your husband’s family from? LCL: Yeah, my husband’s family is from [Phu Quoc], which is an island right off of Vietnam, a little bit. But, it took us six hours by boat to get to his island. But my hometown is right at Saigon, so much more convenient. (25:04) JS: All right. Let’s see. I think we’ve done a pretty good job going basic things that we were covering. Are there any kinds of individual events or things that happened to you that you remember, either about Vietnam or making a life over here, that sort of stand out in your memory? Let’s start with Vietnam first. Think back to the time when you were living there. What do you think of or what comes into your mind? LCL: Um, well, back when I was younger in Vietnam, I had to adopt their way of life, the communism way of life. Um, I remember when I was back there, when I was young, I got a very good voice as more like a passage, give a message out to the public. Most of the songs I sang over there were anti-America songs. And I didn’t know, I didn’t know honestly, I just sing my heart out, without knowing what was going on. Until now, I come to America, I sit back and I realize, something about it, I realize, gosh, I been saying a lot of bad things about my Dad, you know, side. JS: Yeah. (26:10) LCL: And it just more like a brainwash, really, some of the comments have done to me, you know. But, um, I learn it when I came here. It’s not easy. JS: Now when you were still in Vietnam and this kind of thing was happening, did your mother say much to you, or remind you that things aren’t really like this, or did she just kind of keep quiet? �LCL: She keep quiet most of the time. She didn’t want me to speak up, you know, in anger, because she wanted me to continue going on with school. And be knowing more, like any other kid. So, sometimes I…that’s why I never think hard of who I am exactly at that time. I did know that I was different than other kids around me, so that was the only thing I noticed and get picked on, so I did get used to it, you know. (27:04) JS: Now once you left Vietnam or whatever, did your mother tell you more about the rest of the story, or had she told you before you left? LCL: Well, she told me when we came here to America more, than over there in Vietnam. And when I came, I grew up more. And so I think she realized that I understand things better now, and so she explained and tell me stories about between her and my dad. Relationship, because I questioned sometime, you know. I think, did my dad really wanted me? Did my dad really love my mom? And things like that. So there were questions and stories that I would bring up and ask her. And she tried to answer me the best she can. And I can understand her situation as well. (27:52) JS: Okay. All right, that’s basically all I have by the way of questions. I’d just like to thank you for coming to talk to me today. LCL: Okay. And I do have to give a word out, I have to admit that I really appreciate America for giving out that ODP program, that immigration program. Because of that program, have saved hundreds and thousands of Amer-Asian children to America. And not only that, all their families too. So that is a greatly thing that I want to appreciate, the American government. But I would hope to see, if they had given out a special program or something that would help the rest of the Amer-Asian children that are still left behind in Vietnam that had nowhere to go. Because Vietnam wasn’t their homeland anyway. They have to force themselves to accept that. But that’d be nice to have a program, or from a private party or something like that, that would help them out. That would be greatly appreciated. (28:46) JS: Well, these days actually a lot of American Vietnam veterans go back to Vietnam and a lot of them do humanitarian projects so there’s some potential there for some help. LCL: Yeah, that would be wonderful. JS: Well, thank you very much. (29:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_LeL0494V Title A name given to the resource Le, Lan Chi (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-01-07 Description An account of the resource Ms. Le was born in Saigon in 1970 to an American father and Vietnamese mother. Her father had to leave, and her mother struggled to make a living, especially when the communists took over. A program called ODC allowed them to leave Vietnam, go to the Philippines for orientation for 6 months and then move to America. Mastering the English language was a struggle at first, but Ms. Le worked hard and became very successful. She said she is grateful to the ODC program. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Le, Lan Chi Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, Vietnamese-American Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/af604db20cfe3806af1b93256d640371.mp4 f7e20e34b9399fb8ccbe322543ce50e5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/de441a6fc56fbdccf26c3c236fa707b6.pdf b23205130676ab6baafa8b4a935946e4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II - WAC Mae Johnson Interviewed by James Smither Length of Interview: 29:14 (00:02) JS: We’re talking with Mae Johnson of Greenville, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither, of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Mrs. Johnson, can you start with some background on yourself. Where and when were you born? MJ: I was born in Waterbury, Connecticut, July 14th, 1919. I grew up there, went to school. Graduated from Leavenworth. Not the prison, the college…the high school. And then, at that time, some of the guys from school were being sent into the Army or the Navy and the girls wanted to keep them happy, so we would join a club and write to them as often as we could. And send them goodies and stuff. (00:56) JS: Now do you remember that year you graduated from high school? MJ: ’37. JS: So after you graduated, did you go to work, or stay at home, or what did you do? MJ: I stayed home and earned some money, because I wanted to learn to be a nurse. So when I got enough money, I went to nursing school. And I was almost through the complete course, a three year course, and I got sick and I was out so long that I couldn’t possibly make up the time, so that was the end of that. JS: Now, where did you attend nursing school? MJ: It was in Greenwich, Connecticut. JS: Okay. And then, once you got sick and you couldn’t catch up, what did you do after that? MJ: Let’s see. I did a lot of baby-sitting jobs. And then I went to work, at that time it was called the Waterbury Clock Company. We held hands and made faces. (laughs) And we made parts for gyroscopes. So we knew what we were getting into at that time. I worked there for quite a while. (02:20) MJ: And then one of my best girlfriends had a sister who lived in California. She was a nurse. And we had enough money saved up so the two of us took the train and went out to California �and stayed out there until we ran out of money. We had to go to work out there, so we got a job at the Bethlehem Steel Company. JS: Now, where were you when Pearl Harbor happened? MJ: I think I was at home, in ’41. I must have been at home, cause I was with my dad. I remember that. JS: Home in Connecticut, at that point. All right. And when did you go out to California, then? (03:00) MJ: I can’t remember. There’s that time element…I can’t keep it straighten out. JS: But the war’s going on at the time that you go out there. MJ: Right. JS: So you go and you work for the steel company. And what were you doing for them? MJ: Oh, I don’t remember. It was something for the military, but I can’t exactly remember. I know…should I say that, Ed? Is it a bad word? (speaks to someone on her right) No, it isn’t really a bad word…really. I had a job working with a bastard file. And I had never heard of that before. And I was real close with my dad, and I knew all of his tools, but I never recalled that he had one of those things. Oh…that was fun. And we both stayed there until we could make enough money to get back to Waterbury again. (laughs). But, I remember what fun it was on the train. I mean, it was a real train, not like Amtrak. But it was fun, mostly it was a mixture of military people, going back and forth. (04:07) MJ: I remember one time, too, that we almost missed the train because we went out to get some goodies, and we pretty near didn’t make it… but… While we were out in California, that was great. Because there was so much to see back then, that was free. And I think I should tell you the story about my girl-friend…she was really naughty. We went to Chinatown one night… JS: So, San Francisco? MJ: Yeah. With the little bit of money that we had, and we went to the restroom. And when we came out, everybody in the place was laughing their heads off. And come to find out, I had a piece of toilet tissue that was trailing on my shoe. And I never did forgive her for that, for not telling me that. But we had a really good, a really good time. We had a chance, one time while we were out there, to go to Alcatraz, cause her sister knew somebody that was working on the boat or something. But we just missed it by a day. (05:17) MJ: But, you know, you see things on tv and it brings back memories, which are great. So… �JS: Okay. So, you had your adventure in California. You come back home to Connecticut. And then what do you do at that point? MJ: And then at that point, after having seen all the military, and having worked in the Bethlehem Steel, I guess I became over-patriotic. I said, oh gee, I guess I’ll join the service. So I did. (05:45) JS: Now how did that wind up working? Was there a recruiting office nearby that you go to? Or what happened? MJ: I didn’t hear you… JS: What’s the process? How do you end up enlisting in the WACs? MJ: Well, I had to go and enlist. And I think that was in New Haven, Connecticut, if I remember correctly. And, of course, I was accepted. And they give you all of your gear, all that stuff. And I was sent to Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia. For the basic training. I was not there all that long. Just enough to learn all the… I do remember that while I was there, I didn’t like the soil that they had there. It was that red clay. And it was a heck of a job, trying to keep your shoes clean. And of course, you had that spot inspection. Get points off if you had a grain of that little red clay on your shoe. (06:40) JS: So what did they have you do, in basic training? MJ: Oh, my. We had a lot of PE. And marching. Marching, marching. Lots of school work. You know, the same learning as the guys do, basic things. I remember that one of my fears was that while we were marching, I would become out of step. And we had to put on a rear view parade performance for a big general, one time. And I thought, of my goodness, is it going to be me that’s going to make a misstep? I can’t remember for sure, but I think it was General Marshall. JS: That’s quite possible. MJ: And, of course, I didn’t know him from Adam, at the time. Yeah, I was there at Fort Oglethorpe for just a short time. And then they sent me to Hot Springs, Arkansas. To a huge Army/Navy General Hospital, that had been previously been a luxurious hotel. JS: Right. Cause you had the health spa there with the hot springs. (07:53) MJ: Right. And those were…I have to tell the truth, I never, cause I never did get into one of the spas. But we called it “Million Dollar Row” back then, and we would walk by. The hospital was at the top of the hill. You could overlook the city. Um, I remember one time that they were giving us some kind of a drill, and they were using a hose to put out a fire, a pretend fire. Of �course, they turn the water on. I can remember one girl, she was trying to hold the hose down. It jumped up in the air and she almost went flying. (laughs) It was comical, but… JS: Was this like one of those big, kind of canvas fire hose? Very big, a lot of pressure, just bounce around… MJ: Everybody was just laughing their heads off, it was just really fun. (08:48) JS: Now what was your job at Hot Springs? MJ: Actually, it was doing everything except the charting. For the…the nurses did all the charting. And the nurses dispensed all the medication. But the technicians actually gave them out to the patients. So, you know, it was just routine. Temperature, pulse and respiration. JS: Did you have a particular ward or part of the hospital that you were assigned to? MJ: It was called the surgical…actually, on my record, it says “Surgical and Medical Technician,” so there was a combination of both of them there. But, um, we did just about everything. You’d never catch a nurse emptying a bedpan, I’ll tell you that. You know how that goes, don’t you? (09:46) JS: Now were the nurses officers at this point? MJ: Yeah. All officers. JS: So you’re the enlisted people. You do the dirty work. MJ: Yeah. We did the dirty work. Which is par for the course, isn’t it? JS: Okay. And, I don’t know…what was daily life like there? MJ: Well, it was quite an adjustment getting used to living with so many girls. And sharing small quarters, really. Coming back to Fort Oglethorpe, though, I can remember how naïve I was. When they asked for volunteers to do something, and I volunteered for kitchen patrol. And part of it was cleaning out a grease pit. The other part was peeling potatoes. And that was before the, you know, automatic peelers. JS: Right. (10:38) MJ: Yeah. Oh, golly. It was fun at the Army/Navy General, but you know, when I first got there and looked at all those guys, and thought, I don’t know if I can really stand it, cause it was just overwhelming. You know, when you see the devastation to their bodies. But, truthfully, it �was the vets themselves that bolstered us. Which is surprising. So we both learned along the way. (11:16) MJ: So then after Hot Springs, then they sent me to Fort Sheridan, to the base hospital there. And that wasn’t exciting, quite so exciting until you know when… (smiles). I walked in one day and they had just brought back a bunch of guys that came back from overseas. And I saw this one person in particular, and I said to my girlfriend…I have to chuckle every time I think of this…well, I said, I’m going to take that guy home with me. I said, you can have the rest of them. I’ll take him home. (11:54) JS: Now in his account of things, he had kind of a foul temper at that point. MJ: He did. But he was a charmer. He didn’t really have to say anything, to be honest. I really and truly meant that, that I wanted it to, you know, get to be a lasting friendship. So…what else can I tell you about that… JS: Well, MJ: He finally warmed up, how about that? JS: He must have. Now, what did your duties consist of? Were you doing the same kind of work at Fort Sheridan as you had in the other place? (12:27) MJ: Yeah. Of course, it was a smaller…a much smaller base. JS: Now did you get there before the war in Europe ended? MJ: Right, um hmm. JS: Okay. So you got there early ’45, maybe? MJ: The war ended in ’45. JS: Right. And before they started to bring these guys back from Europe, this was just people on the base who got sick, that you dealt with? Cause it was the base hospital, or did they already have patients? MJ: No, we always took care of the ones that they brought back. (13:03) JS: Now, what kind of accommodations did you have at Fort Sheridan? MJ: We had barracks. Bunk beds. �JS: How many women would they put together in a room, in these places? MJ: You know, I’ve been trying to think of that. You mean, like for sleeping quarters? JS: Yeah. MJ: I really don’t remember. But I’d say maybe thirty or forty. JS: Now, when you decided to join the WACs, what did your parents think of that? (13:34) MJ: Well, maybe they were happy to get me out of the house, to tell you the truth. (laughs) Because I was about twenty, twenty four. JS: Twenty-five, yeah. MJ: So I think they were…they were happy. My dad had been in the Navy, so…I should tell you that actually I wanted to join the Marines, because I thought the Marines had a more exciting life. And their uniforms were nicer looking, and you know, once a Marine, always a Marine. (laughs) And I couldn’t make it. And I ate carrots, until carrots came out of my… JS: But you couldn’t pass their physical? MJ: I couldn’t pass just the eyes. Just the eyes. JS: The eye test. MJ: So, I settled for the Army. But, Fort Sheridan was an interesting place, because Lake Michigan was right there. We had a few little walks on the beach, there. And we were close enough to Chicago so that we could go there for all the cultural activities. And I really learned a lot. I mean, I came from a small town, what I thought back then, was 100,000 people. Waterbury. But then when you get close to Chicago and see the mass of people… (14:59) JS: So you didn’t, like from Waterbury, you didn’t get on a train and go into New York City, particularly? MJ: Oh, New York City was our…we spent a lot of money in New York City. JS: Okay. So you had that kind of experience before. MJ: One of the…one thing about going to New York City was… of course, we had to keep scrounging for our money so we had enough to get there. But anyhow, there were five girls in that one particular group that I hung around with, and we went one day, and we were going to do so much, and one of the girls said, let’s go to the opera. So, I had no idea what the opera was �like at that point. So I said, okay, let’s go. So just before we went to the opera, there were some vendors on the street, selling orchids. No…yeah, orchids. Twenty-five cents. So well, we thought, we can spend twenty-five cents to have a corsage. So we did that and we thought we were really bigwigs, you know. That was fun. (16:16) MJ: And, at Fort Sheridan, all kinds of things to go to. I really liked it there. One of the nice things about Chicago was, or an unusual thing, was riding on the North Shore Line. They had a pot-bellied stove, I can remember, on that train. So when I went to visit Ed, when he was at the Veterans Hospital, that was in Waukesha, Wisconsin, so I’d get on the train at Fort Sheridan and ride to Milwaukee. And pick up and go to the Veterans Hospital. JS: So they had sent him from Fort Sheridan up to Waukesha, for the recuperation period? MJ: Yeah. JS: Okay, yeah. MJ: Yeah. There were so many things to go to. But everything was free back then. (17:06) JS: Now what did you like to do in Chicago? MJ: I liked to go to the museums. Because in Waterbury we didn’t have any. We had smaller ones, but nothing like there. JS: Yeah, cause Chicago at that point already had the Field museum, they had the aquarium. The Art Institute was down there, and so forth, yeah. MJ: I remember one time they gave us tickets to the football game at Northwestern. JS: Okay. MJ: That was fun. I don’t think I watched the game. I watched all the people around me. But, oh my golly, I can’t think. The food in Chicago was so good. Chinese. You acquainted with the Palmer House in Chicago? That was one of our…when we thought we were such big shots back then, too. Going to the Palmer House. (shakes head) That was fun. Um, I can’t remember what else. All the things that people pay to go see, nowadays. The Aquariums…oh, golly. I can still picture walking the street. (18:27) MJ: There was one place there, I can’t remember the name of the hotel, it was right on the main drag, I don’t even remember the name of that main drag anymore. JS: Michigan Avenue? �MJ: Michigan Avenue. And there was one big hotel there, and any service person that came in there had free room and board. So that really paid off. There were several of us stayed there several nights, you know, over the course of our time there. So… (19:05) JS: So now eventually, you meet this fellow, and you decide to get married. Um, you tell your parents at the last minute… MJ: Did we have to go back a little bit? How did that go? Oh, I know now what I’m thinking. He proposed and at the time, he smoked all these cigarettes. So, I said, no way. I’m not marrying any man that’s going to smoke a cigarette and put… JS: That’s the other part of the quitting smoking story, then? (laughter) Cause in his version, he just had a bet with a priest. (laughter) So he didn’t switch right away. MJ: I don’t know which came first. JS: Well, the priest was on the ship coming back from Europe. MJ: Oh, oh oh! JS: All right. Now this is why you talk to two people. (19:56) MJ: I had not heard that story, truthfully. But, I guess he picked me over the cigarettes. It paid off, didn’t it? JS: Yep. Yep. Still here. MJ: Oh, dear. So, we decided then, we’d get married at the [unclear] Chapel. And we had to let our parents know. And my folks came from Waterbury and his folks came from Greenville. And everybody met the night before the wedding. Which was, you know, when I look back on it now, it’s really comical. Wondering if, gee, I wonder if she’ll like me. But, at 23 or 24 years old, who cares. I mean, you’re your own guys then. So we had a military wedding right there at the chapel. Not a big one, but everybody came. (20:56) MJ: One funny part of that was my dad and I, like I said, we were always so close, and we were standing back in the entrance way of the church, and the music kept playing “Here Comes the Bride.” And my dad and I kept talking and talking. I don’t know how many times they played it. And Ed tells me, he thought he was being jilted, at the time. (laughter) But finally, I realized, gosh, I guess we better get a-going, so we walked down. And I can remember afterwards, Ed telling me he asked the minister, “what am I supposed to do?” (laughter) And the minister said, just stand there. Just say “I do” when you have to. JS: Okay. Now were you still in the WACs at that point? �(21:46) MJ: Yeah. JS: And then, did they make you leave once you got married? MJ: No. No, I stayed until, let’s see, what was it? We were married in October. I don’t know. It must have been November or December. I think we were home for Christmas, weren’t we? Here? For Christmas? JS: So basically, you were able to stay in until it was time for you and him to go? MJ: Right. (22:25) JS: Now were there other pieces of your family story that he left out that you want to get in? Cause how many kids did you have? MJ: When we came back, after we were married and came back here, our first son was born in 1949. And we lived here at the time. And then Ed started college, and while at college, our son Bruce was born, 1951. But over the years, we kept track of all their sports, you know, like all good parents do, and go to PTAs and all that sort of thing. And, I’m losing track of all my thoughts. They’re getting all confused. (23:14) JS: But there was a story about Bruce you wanted to… MJ: Yeah. Bruce, his son graduated from high school last year. And one of the big joys of his life was going to Alaska with his son, to fish. But previous to that, Bruce and Justin went three or four times to Canada, to get together, just the three of them. Which was three generations, which I thought was just super. And they did all their fishing up there. They have stories to tell. So both boys were really active. We’re really happy. And we have three grandchildren. And expecting another one, hopefully. Other than that, I don’t know… (24:23) MJ: Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. When we were married at Fort Sheridan, of course, they had a reception for us. And they came out with this big beautiful wedding cake. And, come to find out, it was made by a German prisoner of war. Who was one of the cooks, one of the p.o.w’s. And, Ed didn’t know about that until several months later. He probably would have thrown up at the thought of it. But that was interesting. JS: Yeah. Cause a lot of the guys talk about coming back and they’ll go to a meal around one of the big camps in New York, and the meals were all being served by German p.o.w.’s. Did you yourself see much of the Germans on Fort Sheridan? Were you aware of them on the base, or did you not…? �(25:11) MJ: The p.o.w.’s? JS: Yeah. MJ: We had a lot of them there. We had the…what did they call them? The S.S. troops. We had the bigwigs there. And, I don’t know. I didn’t seem to be frightened of them, but just the thought of them being there… Of course, they had to toe the mark. They were watched constantly. I often wondered what happened to them. Because it would be the same as P.o.w.’s over there. But…but quite a difference, because the German prisoners were really treated well. When they weren’t overseas. (25:57) JS: Well, some of them just stayed. They all had the chance to go home, and some of them found a way to stay in this country and are still here. MJ: I’m sure there are quite a few… JS: But they’re less likely to be the S.S. guys, though, than the regulars. But that was…and we were using them for farm work here in Michigan. They were all over the place. MJ: Yes. I think they probably went to farms. But am interesting, an interesting… JS: All right. Now think back to the time that you spent with the WACs, whether in Arkansas or at Fort Sheridan. Are there any other kind of particular things that kind of stick in your head, about that? Either individual people or things that happened to you? (26:47) MJ: I can remember one particular time that I got really close to a patient who had been in some kind of a wreck. And her face was just about shattered. And I was assigned to just take care of her. And I was with her just constantly, you know, for the whole shift. And I had to keep putting compresses on her face. Soothing her and trying to help her emotionally, and I remember her name. She was a lieutenant. Lieutenant Edith Rittenberg. And she was a wonderful wonderful lady. And she made it, she finally recovered. She didn’t recover there, but she went, I think she went to some big hospital out west. That was one where I felt like I was really doing good. (27:56) MJ: But at the Army/Navy General Hosptial, I can still picture those guys. That was heartbreaking. And that was just one small segment of the war. You think of the nurses that were overseas and had to do all that hard work. Tirelessly. They were on their feet constantly. JS: But in those days, it took a very long time to recover from wounds. And men would be in bed for months and months and months at a time, and somebody had to look after them and take care of them, so that went on for a long time. �MJ: Right. I was really happy that I went into the service. It’s just that the best part of it for me was meeting Ed. (28:38) JS: Did you find that having had that nursing training was helpful to you when you became a technician? MJ: Absolutely. Absolutely. Especially for the classwork. So. There’s so many terms that you better be familiar with, that you better be on your toes or out you go, you know. But I was really disappointed that I couldn’t finish nurse’s training. But it just wasn’t to be, so… JS: Okay. Well, in the end, you came out pretty well. MJ: Very well. Very well. JS: I’d just like to thank you for taking your time to add your story to the collection. (29:14) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_JohnsonM1348V Title A name given to the resource Johnson, Mae (Interview transcript and video), 2012 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-08 Description An account of the resource Mae Johnson was born in Waterbury, Connecticut, in 1919. She graduated from Leavenworth High School in 1937 and eventually went to nursing school. Because she could not finish nursing school, Mae traveled to California with a friend. After visiting California, she decided she would enlist in Woman's Army Corps (WAC) in New Haven, Connecticut. She was then sent to Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia for basic training. After basic training, Mae was sent to Hot Springs, Arkansas where she worked in a hospital as she was assigned to the Surgical and Medical Wards. Once she was finished in Arkansas in early 1945, she was sent to Fort Sheridan, Illinois where she maintained a similar position as before. While at Fort Sheridan she met her future husband and met many German POWs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson, Mae Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army. Women's Army Corps Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/38fcfeee2cfe5b67d488c5e134e57dfa.mp4 bac1f07eba70dfd4cc635ed4401ace4b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ecde7d621f09b997915c71065693360a.pdf 95797647841830b24a534715c5abb02e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam, Army Carolyn Greene Interviewed by Charlie Collins Length of Interview: 42:01 (00:15) CC (interviewer name unknown): Today we’re going to do your life history. And we’re going to start with where you were born. And tell us your full name and spell it for us, please. CG: My name is Carolyn Greene (spells name). I was born in Jackson, Mississippi. I was born June 23rd, 1948. My father was United States Air Force, Keesler Air Force Base. I also had two uncles that were in the Air Force. One was stationed in the Philippine Islands, his name was Edgar. Edgar Greene. And then we had another one, his name was Ollie Greene. He was stationed with the Germans. But anyway, all of them used to get together and every time they’d get together, that was how I come into the military myself. It come from being around them. I grew up being around Keesler Air Force Base, I was around there where you see all the big B-52 bombers coming in. Ooh, they look good. (01:29) CC: Them take off, they were big, weren’t they? CG: I’m talking about me and my cousin, we was in the window. And the landing strip was right in front of the barracks, where we were staying at. And you could hear them coming in. They sound good and they look good. And we would be at the window every…you know, every time, we’d be at the window, waiting on them. That’s how I got military’s. CC: So you were raised as a military brat, weren’t you? CG: I was, and I am. I’m still a military brat. CC: Carolyn, do you remember much about before you went to school? CG: That’s what I’m telling you about now. Um hmm. (02:22) CC: Okay, now Carolyn, what was your mother doing at that time? CG: My mother was at Jackson State College, going to become a master, a teacher. But she wasn’t yet at that grade. CC: So your mother eventually got a master’s degree in teaching? CG: Yes, she did. She was good at it too. �CC: Yes. Carolyn, as a military brat, where did you start kindergarten at? CG: Keesler Field, that’s where I started. CC: Can you spell that? CG: Keesler. Do you want me to spell that out? Oh, shoot. Do you know how old I am? CC: How old are you? CG: I am 58 years old. CC: Right. CG: Keesler. I mean, I know it’s Keesler, KE-something. CC: K-e-s-l-e-r, isn’t it? CG: Yeah. Okay. But that’s where I started kindergarten at. CC: You started kindergarten there. Do you remember your first day? (03:28) CG: My first day? That’s when I seen the B-52 bomber coming in. CC: Really. Carolyn, did your mother take you to kindergarten or did you have to walk and go alone? CG: Oh, all us kids went together. Because we went on post. All us kids went together. Cause I remember we used to have a park that we used to play in all the time. And I had a godfather. He was Hispanic. He was a pilot. I remember him. He had, he had gave my dad a picture. I don’t know where that picture went. If I can ever find that picture, I’m gonna get it. Because, like, he was a pilot. CC: Do you remember what your godfather’s name was? CG: I sure don’t. But I know in his picture, he was a fine looking man. CC: And he was a pilot. CG: He was a pilot. (04:24) CC: Okay. Carolyn, do you remember your grade school teacher’s name? �CG: (laughs) I can’t believe you’re asking me this. Do you remember your grade school teacher’s name? CC: No, I don’t. CG: All right then. (laughter). All right. One grade school teacher I know, Miss Porter, that about it. CC: Okay. Well, that’s better than I ‘cause I don’t know that I remember any of them. CG: Then why you ask me if I remember any of my grade school teacher’s names when you don’t even remember yours, okay? (laughter) Think about it. (05:00) CC: Think about it, right. Carolyn, what did you do when you went to school? Did you play any games there on the military post with the other kids? CG: Yes, we did. CC: What kind of games did you play? CG: Oh, the games, the one thing, you know that used to go around (motions with hand), we used to play on that all the time. CC: On the merry-go-round. CG: On the merry-go-round. That’s what it was. But most of the time, you know, we set out there by the field, looking for the planes coming in. CC: So you watched the planes a lot. CG: Um hmmm. That’s what we did. CC: And at that time, they were B-52s, which were big ones. CG: B-52s, the bomber, honey. B-52 bombers. (05:45) CC; Carolyn, how about any other games. Did you play hopscotch or anything with the other kids? CG: I remember that. We played hopscotch when we got bored. CC: (laughs) When you got bored. Did you have a bicycle or tricycle? CG: No. �CC: Did any of the other kids around have… CG: We had planes. We would play with planes. Dad and Ollie would get us planes. And we would go zoom, zoom (motions like flying a plane through the air). That’s what we did. CC: So you played with model planes a lot? CG: Umm hmmm. A whole lot. (06:20) CC: Well, Carolyn, as you begin to grow up and go through the lower grades, did you go to any of the other events, like a play, or have an operetta, or anything like that in grade school? CG: Hon, I’m gonna tell you where I’m from. I am from Jackson, Mississippi. And this was back then in the ‘50s. Nobody black went to nothing like that. CC: Okay. CG: What we did. We went to church. CC: Church? Okay. Tell us about going to church. (07:01) CG: Oh, well, you wanna go into history. Well, honey, I’m fittin to give you some history. ‘Cause we were with the Freedom Riders, in Jackson, Mississippi. CC: You were with the Freedom Riders? CG: Uh huh. We was all in it. We couldn’t help but be ‘cause my mom was in the NAACP. She was, you know, worked with Medgar Evers. And the night that Medgar Evers got killed, he had my t-shirt, among other things, in his hand. And we were one of the kids that did the boycott, you know, went to the fairgrounds. We were one of the kids that did [unclear]. You know, we did all of that. CC: You did that, and all of those things. CG: I’m giving you some history. You want some history? You know the three civil rights workers? James, Andrew Goodman. We knew all of them. We were with them. Because, you know, they were teaching us how to read, read more books, you learn by reading more books. They gave us a little learning. An education. We would go down to the [unclear] office all of the time. You see, that’s civil rights. That was the politics growing up. (08:27) CC: Sure. �CG: And I learned a lot from him. CC: I bet you did. Carolyn, where did you go to high school? CG: Lanier, Lanier High School. CC: Was that on the base, also? CG: Oh, no. CC: So daddy had… CG: That’s Jackson, Mississippi. CC: Okay. Well, tell us a little bit about your experiences in high school? (08:54) CG: Okay. I had this boyfriend. CC: You had a boyfriend? CG: And his name was George Jackson, and he used to follow me around all the time. He played football. And then I had another friend guy. He used to follow me around, he thought he was Batman, cause like this coat, he carried it, it looked like a flag, flying in the sky somewhere. But, at that particular time, everybody was interested in the civil rights movement then. Because the Freedom Riders had came to Jackson, then. SS (female interviewer): They didn’t have segregated schools back then, did they? CG: Hon, I’m gonna tell you something. They had segregated schools. SS: Did they? CG: All the blacks went to one school, and all the whites went to another school. But this were during the time when it was really bad, ‘cause, like you go downtown, you could not even go to a water fountain and drink water out of it. You had to go to, you know, a water fountain that had a sign on it saying ‘colored.’ And then, you go over there and drink out of a white water fountain, you was in trouble. I mean, they’d get on you. SS: It was the same thing with restaurants too, wasn’t it? (10:19) CG: The same way. It was the same way. You know, a lot of these things, you see on the TV. But during the civil rights days, you know, it’s true. Oh, I had a chance to meet Dr. Martin Luther King. �CC: Did you? CG: Oh, yes I did. CC: Tell us about that. CG: I worked with him. I also worked with Medgar Evers, too. CC: With who? CG: Medgar Evers. NAACP. Because all during that time, it was interesting, because I got a chance to meet a lot of people. CC: Tell us about meeting Martin Luther King, Carolyn. (10:54) CG: Well, when I first met him, I was in the NAACP office, in Tyson, Mississippi. In come Medgar Evers, he had an office there. And I, it was like a room, and a lot of people come, like, they had a talk with him, like they had an apartment. But the most interesting part about it, every time something happened, [unclear] would run out there with a newspaper, and say “you see this happened,” and one time he said, “It’s going to change.” And he said, you see that nigger over there? He going to help make that change? And you know, that’s how we got a chance to meet him. A lot of them would come in that office. Sammy Davis Junior, Medgar Evers. I mean, you had top movie stars would come in there, too. CC: So did you meet Sammy Davis Junior also? (11:53) CG: Honey, we had a chance to meet all of them. CC: Oh, good. CG: That’s what you call, in the right place at the right time. CC: Yes. CG: ‘Cause they was working along with the NAACP. CC: Did you ever see Sammy Davis Junior perform? CG: No. CC: Did he ever doing anything while you were in the office there? CG: No. The main thing they did was talk with Medgar and then they’d leave out. Because, honey, downstairs, you had police cars like, it was like a holiday. And see, the only thing �different then, was it was a Masonic Temple and the police couldn’t just come up in there like they wanted to. SS: What kind of temple? CG: Masonic. ‘Cause Medgar was a Mason. He had his office in the Masonic Temple. CC: Okay. (12:53) CG: And, so like, all the police cars be on the outside. I mean, every whole day, we’re looking out the window, looking down at them. It was scary. CC: I bet it was. CG: But, wait a minute. The main thing we were scared about, like the main people that I was with, you know, going to different meetings and different things, were the Freedom Riders. And we would go downstairs, you know. To get a pop or something, you know or have a mass meeting or something like that. And they were right behind us. They were right behind us. I’m not talking about the police. I’m talking about the Ku Klux Klan. They were right behind us. SS: (female voice): Do you remember when those three boys got killed down there? CG: Uh huh. ‘Cause I talked to James Chaney the night before he was killed. And they found them on my birthday, June 23rd. it upset me so bad. That’s when I really started drinking. More. (14:04) SS: How old was you? CG: Twelve years old. Yeah. But, I knew ‘em. ‘Cause they used to bring me home all the time, from different meetings and everything. The same station wagon. They used to bring me home. They used to bring a lot of us home. And, honey, when I found out, you know, from looking at the movie and everything, how they used to keep close tabs on them, that’s scary. That is really scary. I mean, they had the car tag number. The had a [unclear] file. They brought it out. And I read it. And on it, they had people’s names and if you were with them, they had your name down there. I mean, it was scary. They had a paper with the address, you know, everything. They just had everything about you. But I was like, I hung with ‘em. (15:10) CC: Carolyn, now who are you saying had all of your names and addresses? CG: The KKK. CC: The KKK, okay. �CG: And then whoever…I don’t like to talk too much about it, ‘cause that’s scary. CC: Sure it is. CG: And, like, I seen them the night before they left. Because I was at the office. Me and [unclear] was at the office. We used to sit up and talk with them all the time. And you know, James told me one thing, before he left. He said, it’s not going to be like this always. One of these days, when it gets like this, I want you to tell this story. And, you know, we got to keep this freedom going. We got to make it possible so that everybody, not only the black, but for whites, too. Because they had an imbalance the same way we did. You see, with the whites, it was different, but for us, you just didn’t want to experience that. (16:20) SS: Well, it’s funny now because back then, the KKK did not want to be known. I mean, they didn’t want people to know who they were. Now, they publicize it. CG: That’s right. You see, but it’s different now. You see, back then, everything was hidden. You see, everything was underwraps. But that was a scary thing. I remember when they used to bring us home all the time. Medgar Evers, all of them, they’d make sure we got home safe. But, honey, when my mama found out that they had gotten killed, she was like, uh uh, you can leave Mississippi! She send we can send you, you know, up north. ‘Cause I don’t want you to be around and come up missing like the rest of them. And they were steady getting ‘em. (17:20) CC: Carolyn, did you graduate from high school? CG: Yes, I did. CC: And where was that? CG: Jackson, Mississippi. CC: In Jackson, Mississippi. CG: I remember that day. June, the 12th. 1966. CC: 1966. (clarifies) (17:46) CC: I get a little mixed up here in numbers. CG: Now, honey, you get a little old. You forget your math then. (laughter) CC: Carolyn, you were still in Jackson, Mississippi, then, in 1966? CG: Yes, I was. �CC: How did you get involved in the service? CG: My father was in the military. And I had a boyfriend that went to Vietnam. And when he went, he didn’t come back. (18:17) CC: Oh, my. CG: And he was from Muskegon, Michigan. And his name was Anderson Tucker, junior. And I used to write him all the time but I never did hear from him, so that’s how I knew. So, mostly, when I was going to Jackson State, and I met a lot of guys that had came home from Vietnam. And, hon, I had three friends and all of us were meeting, and we talk with them and play guitar with them, and I think one of them kind of liked me. But, anyway, all of us used to hang together. And every time, we’d go to the liquor store about ten o’clock and pick up a bottle of wine. And like, they had just came from ‘Nam, they had been through a lot. They talked to me about it. They talked about what they had been through. And that’s when I decided to go. (19:21) CC: So that’s when you decided to go. Where did you join the service at? CG: In Jackson, Mississippi. CC: In Jackson, Mississippi. And what did you join? CG: United States Army. CC: You joined the Army. And tell us about your first day of induction into the Army. CG: Um ummm ummm. (shakes head) You see my hand here? (Holds up hand.) When you take that oath? It’s like you gave your whole life away. CC: Yes, you do. (19:57) CG: And that’s scary. And then they tell you “You are now in the United States Army.” And I said, do you get a chance to go home? (laughs) SS: You belong to us, now. CG: I said, do I get a chance to go home? They said, yes, but pack your bags. But you don’t have nothing to pack, just your [unclear]. I’m thinking that we gonna shop, go on a shopping spree. (laughs) SS: Didn’t work out that way, did it? �CG: (still laughing) Uh uh. [unclear] I’m thinking, we fittin to go on a shopping trip. I’m going to South Carolina, right? I’m thinking they gonna give me some money so I can go on a shopping trip for clothes. I ain’t wearing nothing down there (points), from some basement shop. And they give me all these green clothes. The fatigues and everything. And they give me the backpack, and I say, what am I gonna do with this? They say you gonna take this, and I say, no I ain’t. They said, that’s your lifeline. I said that ain’t my lifeline, I ain’t taking that. (21:17) CG: And then talking about the canteen. I said, what’s that for? To cook in. [unclear, laughing]. SS: Now how old was you at that time? CG: Oh, twenty-two. I said, we ain’t cooking in that. We better give me a pot so I can cook some greens. (laughs) But we had to take that around with us in that backpack. I said, I am not carrying this thing on my shoulders. Is you crazy. The men’s can carry it. They said, you got to carrying it too. I said, what do you mean, we got to take it too? At the time, we couldn’t say nothing then. But afterwards, we gave him a long talk about that backpack. (22:02) CC: Carolyn, where did you go for your basic training? CG: Fort Jackson, South Carolina. CC: So you stayed right in South Carolina, didn’t you? CG: Yes, I did. [unclear] (22:24) CC: Carolyn, let me ask you, when you joined the service, was it still segregated? CG: Umm, yeah. CC: Little bit. CG: That’s the problem we had at Fort [unclear], Alabama. ‘Cause, like I went to college, and a lot of other girls went to college. But more of the whites, you know, were getting promoted before we did. And I went to college and I still didn’t get promoted. Like I was supposed to. CC: So you went to college when you was in the service? CG: Um hmmm. CC: Okay. And so you were inducted in South Carolina… �CG: Hon, listen to how this sounds. I was inducted in South Carolina. I’m from Jackson, Mississippi. I was going to school in Jackson, Mississippi. (looks to other interviewer) We gotta change him. You gotta go. (laughter) But, anyway, I got inducted in Jackson, Mississippi. I went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina, for basic training. CC: For basic training. SS: Did you train with other blacks? (23:52) CG: Oh, yeah. It was mixed. SS: Oh, it was? In the training? CG: It was mixed. They were just beginning…that was the beginning of the mixing. Because before I left, you know, school had just gotten integrated. But like, it was mixing up things. CC: So tell us, as you started your basic training, what was your impression of the place that you was at? CG: Oh, I liked it, for one thing. Only thing I didn’t like about it, remember I was telling you (points to SS), the men’s would tell you to fall out in one type of clothes and the females would come down and you had to go back upstairs and change. Honey, you were a nervous wreck before the day was over with. Then you know why I am like I am. (24:50) CC: Tell me a typical day as you started out in your basic training. CG: On a typical day, we’d go to the mess hall to eat. CC: Right after you got up. What time did you get up? CG: Were you in the service? CC: No. CG: Oh, so he’s a civilian. Okay, that’s why all this talk going on. Okay, but anyway. We had to get up about five in the morning. Really we got up at four in the morning. So we could be up to fall out. We had to go to the mess hall to eat, and then when we left the mess hall, we’d come back and do what we had to do that day. We would like run in the fields, or you know, doing your basic whatever we had to do that day. But then it was crazy about it. The men drill sergeant tell you to fall out with one type of clothes. Then here come the female. That was crazy. And after we did all that, and then you here the guys coming down the street. And they were singing their song, honey. (26:01) �CG: And they let us stay out there long enough to see all that. I enjoyed that. All of us enjoyed that. SS: Describe your female drill sergeant. CG: Drill sergeant [Carrocha]. She was six foot ten. She was like a football player. And she had a bellowing mouth. She hollered. When she hollered (illustrates jumping to attention), you did one of them. And, like, she was nice though. But don’t mess up. CC: Don’t mess up, huh. CG: Put it like this. Don’t mess up. Period. But she pretty nice. But you mess up, you need to be on the ground doing fifty push-ups already, ‘cause when she get to you, you know, that’s what you going to wind up doing. (27:12) CC: So after basic training, where did you go? CG: Fort Rucker, Alabama. CC: Okay. And what did you do there? CG: Okay. I was like in personnel. It better gave…they gave you a number…Now we had to go to AIT first. ‘Cause we had to learn how to type, you know. Learn about the different materials you had to do. CC: What does AIT mean? CG: That’s a school. And like you learn… you know, I’m gonna have to get rid of him. He don’t know nothing. (turns to SS) You done been around all these vets, you don’t know nothing. Period. What do AIT mean? Do I look like I feel like telling you what AIT means? (28:08) CC: Well, Carolyn, your great grandchildren are going to listen to that and they may not know what… CG: Honey, my great grandchildren, they going to be up there. You know, outer space. They probably be up there before I do. But anyway, that’s AIT, it’s like school. CC: Sure. CG: And like, they teach you how to type. And like, when you there, you learn how to do your paperwork and everything. CC: So when you went to AIT, did you learn to use computers as well? �CG: No, honey, we didn’t have no computers. This is in, think about it, in the sixties, early seventies, now. They didn’t have no computers. CC: Didn’t have computers yet in the service. CG: If they did, we didn’t know nothing about it. ‘Cause you know how Uncle Sam is. (29:10) CC: So you learned to be a typist and to work in the office. And what did you do then? CG: Type. I was the one that made your dog tags, your ID, take your picture for your ID. You know. That’s what I was doing. CC: Did you do that all the time you was in the service? CG: Umm hummm. SS: Did you get any furloughs? CG: Oh, we had furloughs. On the weekend, we had furloughs. CC: And what did you do? CG: I went back to Jackson, Mississippi and partied my buns. ‘Cause I had some friends who had been in the service and they the ones who had suggested me going into the service. ‘Cause it would be beneficial to me, cause I had just had a baby. And they used to write me. So when I come home, they would come get me. So most all of them, they were veterans. SS: Now you had your little girl before you went in service? CG: Yes, I did. (30:08) CC: Okay. So you had a little daughter, then? Okay. What’s her name? CG: Tracy. CC: Tracy. So what’s Tracy doing now? CG: Oh, she work at the VA down south. Jackson, Mississippi. And her father went in too. He was trying to stop me from going into the service. He wound up going. ‘Cause I told him, what you going…he was going to Jackson State. I said, what you plan on doing. He said, well, I’m gonna be a photographer. I said, you know what, that’s why I‘m going in the service. Because we got a daughter. And he wound up going in. that was good, because considering that, he five years later, he had a by-pass, and like, he don’t have to work no more if he don’t want to. Uncle Sam is paying him. He is so glad now. �CC: That he went into the service? (31:06) CG: umm hummm. CC: Is he still alive? CG: (laughs) What I’m going to do with you? He is still alive and kicking. [unclear] kick too much. But anyway, all my cousins started going in. So everybody alive is much better now, for going in. I was the first one in the family, to go. CC: Carolyn, how long were you in the service? CG: Almost two years. CC: Almost two years. After you was out of the service, what did you do? CG: Went back to school, Jackson State. I taught for a minute. But basically, what I wanted to tell you about when I was at Fort Rucker… CC: Sure. (31:55) CG: I want to tell you about the guys that was coming home. From Vietnam. That would really piss me off, because like, I was stationed at an Aviation plant, I mean base. And they had a lot of challenge coming over there, taking the train[ing?] Helicopter train. And that was an upset. To all the guys, because you didn’t have no flights going in taking blacks off the train. You might have one in a thousand, so…one black might graduate… SS: So, you mean, they didn’t want blacks… CG: Hon, let me tell you. I’m sorry, but let me tell you something. Fort Rucker, Alabama. It’s pure redneck territory. I mean, like, everybody down there, a redneck. I mean, they were prejudiced. I mean, you go to the gate. You better go with a group of more people. When you go into town, you don’t go by yourself. But anyway, like I said, it was redneck country. Alabama. (33:19) CG: So, like, it was prejudice. Lot of prejudice. CC: I bet there was. SS: Did you ever run into a lot of prejudice with your fellow soldiers? �CG: Ummm, not too much. Because we really didn’t hang. Because they pretty much help us with where to go and where not to go. So we pretty much didn’t hang. But what we’d do, somebody’d have a trailer in the trailer park over there. Mostly we hung on the grounds. On the post grounds. We didn’t go too much anywhere. ‘Cause the party was on post. We’d go to the park, where they had a lake where you could race a speedboat. I used to love doing that. Or you’d be at the barracks, too. Well, you know how I am. Everybody would hang with us. And so we didn’t go too many places. (34:28) CC: Carolyn, as the fellows at your base was coming back from Vietnam, what was their thoughts about that? CG: It was crazy. CC: Crazy. CG: It was crazy. ‘Cause, like, I had one Vietnamese, we had got pretty close, pretty good friends. And like, honey, those guys would jump up and down. You did not talk to them, period. That was the atmosphere. It was like, you know, you don’t talk to them. They didn’t want a black woman around them, period. It was like prejudice. Cause these guys were just getting back home, and I couldn’t blame them, but I’m like this. I’m in a strange territory and I’m seeing all these rednecks running around, so I’m like what’s going on. SS: So this Vietnamese that you was talking to, were they born in the United States? CG: (shakes head no) I come to find out, they was over there for helicopter training. SS/CC: Okay. (35:53) CG: That’s something I’m trying to tell, y’all. They were bringing them over here for helicopter training. And this was at a time when nobody knows what was going on then. And that’s when I got up out of there, cause something ain’t right. ‘Cause you look, you know, here are all these guys going for helicopter training and you think, what the hell they doing over here? You know. I mean, we’re supposed to be fighting them, right? What are they doing over here? So I just said, forget this. I’m getting up out of here. And, honey, I went back home. (36:38) CC: Carolyn, after your two years of service, and you went back to college, is that right? CG: Ummm hmmm. CC: What did you study? �CG: History. But the main thing I want to tell you about, I worked with the Vietnam vets organization back then, when they first getting heard. They were having a lot of problems. Iw orked with them in Detroit and in Jackson, Mississippi. CC: Okay. And what did you do with them? CG: We did a lot of speaking. CC: Did a lot of talking, a lot of speeches and so on? And you did those, too? CG: (nods head affirmatively) CC: Okay. I’m trying to get at what you did as far as interviews and such, after you got out of the service. CG: I went back to school. CC: You went back to school. But after that… CG: Let me tell you. Listen. I’m a veteran, right? I’m not serious, right? Honey, anybody that got out of the service, they went to school. There weren’t no jobs. No jobs. What you did is you went to school. You got paid, at least four something a month. Every first of the month, you got four something a month check coming in the mail. (38:00) SS: How did you get involved with tv? CG: Oh, well, I’m into art anyway. Like my boyfriend, my daughter’s father, he mess around with photography. And so he had a cam corder, and most of my friends, we all go to Jackson State and most of them went on to the [department] and everything. That’s it. SS: Did you go on and become professional at it? Get paid for it? CG: Well, now, I worked for Capital Cable. And I went to class to get my producer’s license. That’s what I did. I enjoyed it, working with the computer, putting the edits in the films. And, I like when you get the letterings together. That’s the part I liked. SS: What job did you get that paid you? Made a living off of? CG: I didn’t get no job. SS: Oh, you didn’t. What did you do? CG: I got married. SS: That’s a job. (laughs) �CG: You got that right. I got married. (39:29) CC: So tell us how, where did you get married? CG: In Jackson. He was a veteran too. He had just came from Vietnam. And he went back in the Navy. CC: He went in the Navy? CG: He left the Army and went back in. You know, he changed. CC: Went from the Army to the Navy? CG: And he was stationed in the Great Lakes. CC: So as you got married and your husband went into the Navy, then what did you do? CG: Hon, I know one thing. He didn’t want me in no Army. He wanted me home. So that when he called, I was staying with Mama, when he called home, I was home. He did not want me in no Army. (40:15) CC: So did you have any children with this husband? CG: Yes. We got a son. CC: A son. And what’s your son’s name? CG: Robert. CC: Is Robert still alive? CG: He better be. (laughter) The last time I talked to him, he was alive. CC: Okay. Where does Robert live? CG: He’s in down south. CC: Does he ever come see you? CG: Oh, hon, this is a child that they got their own life now. And I has always told him, I want you all to go on and live your life. Don’t feel like you got to be under me all the time. Uncle Sam got me. The VA got me. So, they, we call and talk but we don’t stay on each other. �(41:11) SS: So where’s your husband at now? CG: Oh, honey, he didn’t get any work. [unclear] months pregnant. SS: Are you divorced? CG: Yeah. Another lady about twenty months pregnant. SS: So when did you come here? CG: Oh, I came here…my sister-in-law got me here. ‘Cause I was in Muskegon, ‘cause I had got remarried. I’m fitting to divorce his butt. I don’t want any more conversation on that. Case closed. CC: Case closed. Okay, Carolyn. Well, it’s kinda been fun talking to you, Carolyn. And we’ll bring you a copy of this interview. CG: I sure do want a copy. (42:01) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_GreeneC0322V Title A name given to the resource Greene, Carolyn (Interview transcript and video), 2006 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-08-21 Description An account of the resource Carolyn Greene was born in Jackson, Mississippi on June 23, 1948. Her father was in the US Air Force and she grew up where he was stationed at Kessler Air Force Base in Mississippi. When Carolyn was a teenager she was active in the Civil Rights Movement, working with the Freedom Riders, NAACP, and even got to meet Martin Luther King. She enlisted in the Army in 1972 after graduating from college, and went through basic training in Fort Jackson in South Carolina. She then went to Fort Rucker in Alabama where she took AIT classes and spent the rest of her service working in an office. In the interview, she notes continuing problems with racism in Alabama and some of the problems that returning veterans from Vietnam brought with them. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Greene, Carolyn Annette Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/467e1f81c392f600b0d13b429929e637.mp4 cdf92e2b15775affa2a93c4e6b70e3b4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74cbcb312fc1cb31a39709f3634a27e9.pdf 366c3ede87a7e7288c3c179b4428873d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Paul Bailey Interview Length: (01:09:36) Interviewed by Dr. James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We’re talking today with Paul Bailey of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Paul, start us off with some background on yourself and begin with where and when you were born? I was born in Lansing, Michigan. My father was a tool and die maker in a factory. Interviewer: Okay, what year were you born? 1936. Interviewer: Okay. So, had you father had steady employment in the thirties? Pretty much, tool and die maker; my whole family was mechanical, my grandfather was a blacksmith. So, everybody built things so becoming a tool/ die maker was natural for him. He quit school in the eighth grade and went to work in the shop. And he was never unemployed as far as I know, he always had work as a tool and die maker. Interviewer: Alright now, you were a little kid during World War II. Do you remember much about life at that time? (01.00) �Yeah, I do. I remember my father was an air raid warden captain and he had these big steel helmets that people had to wear during air raid warden time. And when they would have these blackouts in the city of Lansing, everybody had to turn all of their lights out and if they had a light on, they were supposed to cover it with a blanket. And then the air raid wardens would go out and check on the residents who might have a leaky light coming in somewhere that they forgot to turn off. But then after the war we remember playing with those white helmets. They were steel helmets, they were very heavy, but as kids you play with those helmets. They were white and had that civil defense symbol on the front of them. That was kind of interesting times growing up. Interviewer: Now, as you were getting older and towards the end of the war, were you kind of following at all the news of the war? What was going on? (02.03) Not really because I would’ve been in junior high school or elementary school at that time and well my brother who was ten years older was in the war. He was in the navy all during that time. He guarded prisoners in Jacksonville, Florida; German prisoners that had been brought to this country. Interviewer: Alright, now let’s see, so when did you finish high school? 1954. Interviewer: Okay, now so you had been in high school during the time the Korean War was going on? Yes. Interviewer: Alright, now while that was going on, were you expecting it to last long enough for you to be drafted and go in it? Or did you not think about that? �I never thought about that, I just felt it was sort of my duty to join the army and get it over with. So, I enlisted before I... while I was in high school, so that I graduated on Friday night and left for the army Monday morning. (03.01) Interviewer: Okay and then that’s back in 1954, so that’s the year after the Korean War Armistice is in place anyway, at that point; was there still a lot of people getting drafted at that time? There were, there were a lot of people in my first companies that were draftees and so I had sort of wanted to become a member of the Michigan State Police, but that wasn’t in the cards at that time. So that's when I opted to become a military policeman. That was my goal. Interviewer: Okay, now was that preference that you indicated when you enlisted? Or did you decide on that later? I decided on that before I enlisted. I wanted to go to the military police school. So of course, they sent me to Camp Chaffee Arkansas for basic training. Then when we had two weeks off and then we went to work in Fort Gordon, Georgia. (04:07) Interviewer: Okay, well back up and talk a little bit about the basic training experience. What was personally Camp Chaffee like? Hot! Being from Michigan, it was hot. I never got… my skin used to just prickle from the heat. We trained, we had to get up at two o'clock in the morning to go to training because after ten or eleven o’clock, it was just absolutely too hot to train. I remember even when we did train, they lined us up, made us take our outer shirts off and just t-shirts then they’d �hose us down with water to keep us from... keep us hydrated and so on. At that time, they had Lister bags full of salt water the thing was you had to take and drink salt water that tasted terrible. But they said we need to drink it to remain hydrated. One night it went down to 70 and we closed all the windows and were freezing it went down to 70 it had been in the 90s and 100s all eight weeks that I was there. Very, very hot and in Michigan we don’t have hot weather like that. I was… I remember trying to write a letter home and the sweat just rolled down my arm to my elbow and the paper I was writing on was all wet. Of course, there wasn’t that much air conditioning, nothing was air conditioned in those days. I mean there were a few things that were air conditioned, but nothing like we have today. (05.32) Interviewer: The barracks weren’t air conditioned or anything else like that? No, the barracks weren’t air conditioned. Interviewer: All right, now what did the actual training consist of? A whole lot of marching and learning to shoot and you know rifle marksmanship and physical fitness and you know it was pretty- it was tough training. But the toughest part was the heat and you had to lay down and the rifle ranges had cinders that you laid down in the daytime those would get very, very hot. They were still hot early in the morning when we would go out to train. And you know the road marches where you’d put all your stuff on your back and carry it. They actually limited some of those because of the heat. (06:21) Interviewer: How easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the army? �I don’t really remember that being a big adjustment. I guess my hall was fairly well disciplined and so getting in the army I just accepted taking orders and I never was very resistant to anything, I just kind of went with the program. Interviewer: Did you notice any of the other recruits having problems either with the physical side or the discipline or anything else? There were some issues with some of the other guys, some of the fellows had not been used to taking orders and they had some resistance issues with the drill sergeants which didn’t go over well with anybody. Sometimes the whole platoon would be punished because of somebody that stepped out of line and didn’t do something right. Interviewer: At the time you were going through, did you have any black recruits training along with you? Or where you a white? You know I’m trying to think back, I don't think there were any blacks in basic training. I think in MP (military police) school there was. Not in basic training. (07.36) Interviewer: Alright, so again tell us how long basic training lasts? Eight weeks. Interviewer: Eight weeks, okay. Then Fort Gordon Georgia was your next stop? Eight weeks. Interviewer: And that’s your advanced training now? For the military police. Interviewer: Okay so what did that consist of? That consisted of a lot of learning Judo hand to hand combat. Training in the 45 pistol and some laws and rudimentary things about apprehension. How to handle ourselves in �difficult situations. That was also very rigorous physically because the school thought we needed to be tough. If you’re going to be a military policeman you’ve got to be able to stand up to anybody and you don't just take any crap from anybody. You have to stand up and you might have to put them down. Physical fitness, I remember before we could eat, we had to do chin ups and the first time I showed off and I did 17 chin ups and so the next time I went to eat he said now you have to do 19. And I said that was dumb, I shouldn’t have done 17 the first time because every time I went to chow, they made you do more than you did the first time. And if you didn't do more than you’d drop down and do 20 pushups or 30 pushups. If they thought, you needed more they’d give you more pushups. Before you could go eat! And one of the things there sometimes at the end of the day, after a day’s training, they still needed somebody to go on and sort of be KP for the night. They would go through and if you had just a little fold in your pocket that would be enough to send you to KP. When they couldn’t find anything wrong, they would ask you to turn your belt buckle inside out and if you sweat that day, it’d be a little corroded and give you KP. So, they'd always have to find something to get someone go on KP every night. And you just hoped somebody got nicked before you did. They’d go down the line and of course of you had a pocket flap that was unbuttoned they’d come down and rip the pocket flap off and say, “get that sewed up before tomorrow.” It was a spit and polish outfit. Because we had everything, everything we had had to be polished, and so some of the guys would polish one set of boots and really make them stand tall, put them under the bunk and leave them that way. Well they wanted you to wear one pair one day and one pair the next, so they’d marked them, then if they’d come in that morning and if your marked boots were there then you got gigged and sent for KP that night. Because you had to switch, you had to keep �all your shoes polished. And they had the foot lockers, had to be laid out just so. Every item in the foot locker was a diagram and every item shaver, toothpaste, everything had to be in a very- your socks, everything had to be just exactly in the right spot. And so, our barracks were inspected every day. And I remember one night I had guard duty I think it was and that night and I walked in one night. And so, my… I carried my rifle and when I got in that morning, they said you were in charge of quarters, so they always left one soldier back as everyone went to training. So, if you went back if that was your job to spiff up, do the lastminute polishing on everything in the barracks so that it would pass inspection, we were inspected every day. So, I got the barracks all ready for inspection and lo and behold my company commander was teaching a class on how to inspect that morning so he had a bunch of students, he had a bunch of lieutenants that he was bringing through and showing them how to inspect. And he says, “for example, Bailey get your rifle out and show them your rifle.” Well I knew my rifle wasn't cleaned because I had been out in the elements all night and so there was just a hair of rust on it, I mean you couldn't hardly see it, but they noticed it. And then he put white gloves on and he went over all the windowsills and doors to see if there was any dust that I had missed. I had already- I had knew he'd do that so I had already dusted everything- cleaned everything, everything else was right, so the only thing he found wrong was my rifle and it’s just because I was working as fast as I could to get it ready and they came in kind of unexpected for the inspection so I wasn't quite finished yet. And my rifle was the only one in the rack since everybody else was out training yet. So, I remember that very distinguished. Then when I went to eat lunch, the commander called me over to his table and I thought oh I was going to get it again. Then he said- then he apologized to me, he said “we took unfair advantage and you were on guard �duty all night. And you… once the inspections over you can go back to bed and sleep.” So, he apologized for catching me off guard and making me feel kind of stupid on the spur of the moment. He said, “we won't hold that against you.” But MP school was supposed to be very tough and very demanding… and because we were expected to be a really good examples of the military. Interviewer: Right Like I said our uniforms are supposed to be impeccable at all times and we’re just supposed to be tough. That’s all there was to it. (13.34) Interviewer: Okay, now while you’re at Fort Gordon did you get a chance to go off the base at all? Or did you just stay there? Never did, never did. Never left the base and I- I didn't do it in basic training either and I never left the base and then I think, I think I went right from there to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. Interviewer: Okay so that’s your first regular assignment then? First regular assignment. Interviewer: So, what was at Fort Jackson at that point? Actually, The First Airborne Division was there. The Screaming Eagle. Interviewer: Okay, so the 101st? The 101st yeah. The only- I did regular MP duty there, but because it was my first assignment, I worked with a Sergeant, he taught me the ins and outs of MP patrol and that sort of thing. And I do remember one really humorous incident there. Was for some reason or other the army always paid in cash. So, we had… before pay day there was, they'd bring �in just a huge amount of cash and just set it on the table, they didn’t have vaults for it or anything. And they- some other recruit who just ... who didn't know anything about the army I don't think I mean it was very basic recruit. They told him to go to the finance building and guard the money. Well it’s pretty boring on a military base at night because things are very very quiet, and this guy decided... And they gave him what’s called a military grease gun which he was not trained in. And about two o’clock in the morning, he decided to experiment with the grease gun and he shot and hit one of the fire extinguishers which was one of those soda acid fire extinguishers and bounced it off the wall and made a mess in, in there. And I was on duty that night and we get a call, shots fired at the finance building. So, we had all kinds of MPs, every MP that was on duty proceeded to the finance building and when I got there, I was on the outer perimeter patrol and when I got there they had him in custody already and he was just apologizing and he was just scared to death of what he had done. And because we had commanders and colonels and generals and everybody showing up at the finance building, finance officers, what could possibly go wrong? And some guy just got bored in the middle of the night and shot the fire extinguisher and that’ll get your attention. So, that was kind of humorous when it was all said and done. (16.19) Interviewer: So, what were your regular duties at Fort Jackson? Well just, we patrol, patrol the base and if somebody was speeding, we’d stop and write them an apprehension of- a disciplinary report and send it to their company. And we would check vehicles and if there was like I say a traffic accident that was our responsibility. We didn’t really have a lot of crime, once in a while there was a crime. �Deputy sheriff from the local town chased someone onto The Fort Stewart one time. He said the guy was shooting back at him and they called us in, those of us that were off duty got called in that day and told ya know, grab a car and start looking for this guy and I don't remember if we ever found him, but we decided that the sheriff had shot his own car, that the guy didn’t shoot at him. All the bullets were on the fender of that old Chevrolet and they were all within inches apart, so we figured he was shooting out the window and shot his own car. But that was kind of humorous. Interviewer: Did you have any problems with any of the soldiers fighting or getting drunk or things like that? (17.40) Once in a while- once in a while but usually our presence would... they knew that they were in trouble when we got there. And even though the army wasn't segregated, it was as far, at that time, and as far as the military police. Because when the black MPs went into the black community we were told to stay out. We didn’t- unless they called us in there we did not go into the black community. Interviewer: Okay so this is if you’re going off base to bring back people? In Hinesville Georgia and other places, maybe surrounding communities around Hinesville Georgia or black MPs or black soldier might live or might be. But the black soldiers handle the black soldiers at that time. Interviewer: So, by this time, was it you were definitely noticing being in the segregated south at this point? Oh yes. �Interviewer: Okay, had you observed that being in other places? Or really is it only when you got to South Carolina that you noticed it because you got off base? (18.38) Again, in South Carolina, I didn’t get off base much, and- but I did notice that there was segregation mean the remnants of it, if it wasn't there it was- you know it was evident, well in Georgia there was white drinking fountains and whites only and colored was around the corner so I did notice that and... Interviewer: And did they have that kind of thing on the bases? Or just off base? No no no just off base, no things like that on the base. And you know we lived with black soldiers in the barracks and... Cause in 1956 I got married and so we were living in married housing and so there were no problems of course as far as married housing. Interviewer: But it’s still a situation that in the 50s the south is still segregated... Jim Crow is still in place, but it doesn't affect, but the army is already past that. We were pretty well integrated at that time yeah. Interviewer: How long did you wind up spending at Fort Jackson? I think just a few months. Maybe two or three months because… let’s see that would have been… probably a few months, probably because I left Fort Jackson and went to… to Korea. (19.56) Interviewer: Okay, alright, now were you expecting to get an overseas assignment, or did it just come out of the blue? Well this, this was kind of funny too because I walked in, they said there’s, there's some opening if any of you want to go to the Far East. And I thought Far East man, I was �thinking Japan. And I heard so much, so many good things about Japan and I thought I'd like to go to japan. So, I went in to sign up and the sergeant said, you're already signed up, you were going anyway. So, it was a fore got conclusion. So, when I got to Fort Lewis Washington, I was in J company and J company meant you were going to Japan. Well Fort Lewis Washington there’s thousands of soldiers. And they asked about while, probably fifty or a hundred of us to go down and work KP and consolidated mess hall. So, we went down to the consolidated mess hall about five o’clock in the morning and about nine o'clock at night we got back and when we got back he said all you guys are in J company are not in K company. Pick up all your stuff and you’ve got three blocks down the street to go and when you see a big barracks and it says K company that's where you're going to be. And I said J company, K company there’s a big switch here. And then the rumor was true, we were all going to Korea. So, when we got on the- finally got on the boat. All these same guys that were on the boat going to J company were on the boat with us. And then there were guys going to Alaska, so our ship when we left Fort Lewis Washington was going to Alaska, dropped off a bunch of troops in Alaska. Which is a site I'll never forget because the snow was so deep, they were shoveling it with dump trucks. They literally backed into the snowbank and brought it down and dropped it in the ocean. You’d see these little specks up there and you’d see the tops of a Quonset hut sticking out and all these little specs were shovels. There's two or three hundred guys up there shoveling snow, so it was deep snow. So, we got through that, but it was a beautiful country but just the snow was really deep. So then from there we landed in Sasebo, Japan and they let us off the troop ship for a while and we got a little tour of Sasebo, so we found out that they drive all horn and no brakes. And so, I went to the telephone exchange, I think that’s what they called it �back then. And they had these sound proof booths that I could call home and say I’m in Japan and so I called home and it cost, at the time it seemed like it cost $35.00 for my phone for my call collect and that was a lot of money for a three- or four-minute phone call. But I wanted to; it had been a long time since I'd called. Anyway, they suffered because the phone call caused them a big bundle and then from there on, we landed in Incheon, Korea and they loaded us on cattle trucks, open cattle trucks. And we stood with our- we got in there as tight as we could, we stood with our sea bags in front of us with everything we owned in the sea bag and then a guy yelled I think we can get six more on here, pull ahead and jam on the brakes. So he pulled ahead and jammed on the breaks and we all slid forward, just a foot or so, and a few inches but that was enough to get six or more guys on there and then we went to the- from there we went to some kind of distribution hub and then they put us on trains and I got to the 7th Division, they sent me to the replacement company and the seventh division. They said, “where are ya headed” and I said, “I’m an MP.” “Well they’ll be down to get you tomorrow morning. You're going to stay here for the night, besides you’re on guard duty.” He handed me a M1 rifle and about fifty rounds of ammunition and my instructions that night where to shoot anything that moves. And here I was just ya know an eighteen-year-old kid just out of high school handed an M1 rifle and all this ammunition and a bandolier of ammunition and told to shoot anything that moved. And I grew up hunting and I said I don't shoot anything unless I got a target, ya know I just don’t shoot. And they put me guarding a POL dump which is just a bunch of barrels of diesel oil and gasoline and it was probably fifty feet square maybe, and they said, “you guard that was down on the bottom of a river bed.” And it was a full moon night, I could see good down there in the middle of the night and about one thirty, two o’clock in �the morning some guy up on top of the hill started shooting: “boom boom bang boom bang boom bang.” Then he yelled down to me, he said, “it’s coming your way,” I could see clear there was nothing coming my way, but I was, you know, I was ready to shoot if I had to but I didn't see anything to shoot at, so I didn’t shoot. When my shift ended, I got up there and the guy said, “didn’t you see him?” And I said “no, nothing came down that riverbed I can tell ya I could see that clear as daylight, nobody came down that riverbed.” Well he’s, he was really angry with me that I didn't shoot. And I said I’m not gonna shoot that, I wasn’t gonna shoot… unless there was a target. But we were- when we first got there, we were infiltrated with slicky boys from Korea that came in and would steal everything we had, they'd steal you blind. And so that was my opening night in Korea was hearing all that gun fire and it went on all night long. I mean, after... you're on two hours you’re off four hours, you’re on two hours or two and two something like that and everybody else fired their rifle but I never fired a shot because I didn’t see anything to shoot at and I wasn’t just going to shoot to. (26.17) Interviewer: Now what time of year was it when you got there? March. March in the spring and they always had their floods in May. Their monsoon season in April and May. Interviewer: Okay alright, so were you just there at that depot overnight and move on to your unit then? Yeah, I got to my unit the next morning. And then they give you orientation at the unit just kind of put you in a Jeep and drive you around, show you everything. I think my other experience was these, we lived in tents and our water came in five-gallon water, military �water jugs. And I had a canteen with a cup and I poured the water into the canteen and said there was a bunch of stuff floating around in there and I went to pour it out and a guy goes “don’t pour that our, that's what we drink.” So, I said “well mine has a bunch of hunks in it.” And he said, “it all has hunks in it, that’s your drinking water.” So, I drank the water, didn't throw it out, or I did throw that last little bit out, but the water wasn’t exactly pristine, let's put it that way. Interviewer: Okay well was this just stuff from the inside of the container or was it …? (27.36) No, I think- I don’t know where they got the water, someone said they got it out of the river and then they ran it though kind of a purification deal, but it was canvas bags with stuff in it and then, and then it went into one of the big water tanks. Each company went over and got their water tank filled and then they’d bring it back and they'd fill these five-gallon jugs from that water tank. Each barrack had a five-gallon water jug. I think when I first got there, we didn't have showers either and so then they built a shower and then we could go take showers and that helped a lot to get that in there. There wasn't much water when we first got there. All our milk was in cans. Everything was pretty spark less put it that way. And they announced one time that the PX down near the headquarters company was going to have ice cream and that was several months after I’d been there, they announced ice cream. And so, I think I was on duty that day and they said we need at least twenty-five MPs down there because these troops are really getting anxious about having some ice cream or milkshake or something like that. So, it was kind of, it got a little testy there for a while and the military people pull a rank so if a private’s in line, and a sergeant comes along, and they say get back I’m getting in there first. Well we went down there, and we �tried to sort that all out and nobody was happy. And I think there was some, there was some fights, we had to make a few apprehensions and then I got assigned to the desk, so I was a desk, like a desk sergeant for a while. We ran out of Sergeants we didn’t have any sergeants so they, if you were a specialist, they pulled you off and made you a desk sergeant. Even though you didn’t have the rank even though there were desk sergeant. So, everybody that was apprehended or whatever had to commend me, and I'd do the paperwork on them. (30.06) Interviewer: Okay, now were you close to the DMZ where you were? Yes. Well, yeah, the DMZ runs at a funny angle across Korea, so we were, we figured six miles the way the crow flies to North Korea. I don’t know how long the DMZ is or how wide it is but there were minefields all over the place that were still there that had never been cleared and so there was a few people that got killed in mine fields while I was there. But just knew better than to step out there. In fact, a major came in and borrowed one of our shotguns to go pheasant hunting and he shot a peasant and went down in the minefield and the guy knew better, don't walk on a mine field to get a pheasant it isn’t worth it, and it blew him up and killed him. And so, it’s you know… people did some dumb things. As far as minefield, I had two experiences in the minefield; that one and a guy took a prostitute down to a mind field and they all blew up and some, a couple of them survived but the one guy lost his man hood for sure and the one guy will never- well the one guy was dead and one lost his manhood and a woman lost a hip and I was personally involved in that one because I had to go out and help them extract the remains out of there and it was at night and we couldn't see and so we had flashlights and a bayonet poking the ground �and making sure you don't hit something and you hit a stone and you sort of sweat in all joints. But the medics were there, and a couple of engineers were there and they probed it and staked it out and then we extracted the bodies all out of there. But just people did some dumb things when they… (32.12) Interviewer: Alright, now was there villages or a town nearby? People go off base and get themselves in trouble or? Everything around us was considered off limits. Interviewer: Okay So, we patrolled those areas. So, any time and of course they were inhabited by prostitutes and we knew we put a bunch of twenty thousand soldiers over there they’re going to look for women so it’s a no-win situation. The nearest town to where I was in Camp Casey was Dongducheon and the nick name for it was little Chicago. And when… in order to get into the town by the road off the MSR, main supply route it required four-wheel drive and low range. I mean, it was so pitted and bottomed out that there wasn’t, there wasn’t any smooth road, it was up and down and then when you got in there the roads were okay, the streets were okay, but we patrolled those mostly on foot and we’d take our jeeps as far as we could go and then we'd just look for any evidence of GIs being in there and then we’d find them apprehend them, take them out of there but there were other villages I don't know their names but a lot of the little villages around the hills that we also went looking for people… Interviewer: Straying soldiers? (33.48) �Straying soldiers, right. Interviewer: Alright, now were the North Koreans making much trouble at this point? Occasionally when I first got there we would get unidentified flying aircraft coming through and we actually had a pillbox in our compound and when we’d get a call of and unidentified flying object or an unidentified airplane we were required to go get out fifty caliber submachine gun and set it up on the tripod and arm it and of course by the time we did all that that plane was south of Seoul probably, and we were twenty-eight miles south of Seoul, so we had to go through that routinely and it was kind of, that’s where the physical really comes in because a fifty caliber submachine gun I don't know how much weight, but it seems like about a hundred pounds. And you carry that from the arms room a couple hundred yards to the pill box and you set it up and then we got it too, so we didn’t load it. We just carried the ammo because we figured by the time, we’d see that plane it’s all over anyways. We were just too close to North Korea like, but I said by the time you get the warning it'd be all over with. Interviewer: Okay, but as far as you know where the North Koreans doing any snipping or sending any artillery shells your way or anything like that? (35.15) They had skirmishes with the South Koreans at the DMZ, there were several little skirmishes where they would just tough each other and shoot back and forth across the DMZ but it wasn’t- you didn’t hear too much about it. You'd hear about it in a hind sight but the news, it was very slow with something like that but if somebody tried to escape and go to North Korea then we pulled out all the plugs and we, we would, the US army would really come to a full alert if there was somebody making any kind of an aggressive move �towards North Korea. Every once in a while somebody would say “I’ve had it with the US army or whatever and I’m going to North Korea.” Well we would do everything possible to stop that from occurring. We would hunt that person down and catch them. Interviewer: Do you know if there were any that actually made it? I don't think anybody made it. We did, we lost one of our MPs and he got off on his own and I think he was captured by the North Koreans, but he made a lot of bad moves and we found his Jeep and that’s all we ever found of him. Never heard what- never heard what happened to him or anything. Interviewer: Alright and then how long did you spend in Korea? Sixteen months from shore to shore. Interviewer: Aright and then over the course of that time what particular events or things stand out in your memory that we haven’t talked about yet? (37.00) Oh I think the flood was interesting, when it was flooding our whole intersection flooded and we were at T intersection in which we had a traffic control post up on a tower like and we would signal the traffic so on, and so during that flood I got flooded in and so I realized there was about three foot of water below me that wasn't there when I climbed up in there. And that was a little tricky to know where the ditches were and where the road was because I had to walk a couple hundred yards back to my compound. The compound was dry but between the compound and the road it was under water. The other- the other crazy thing that happened, this was before the flood, I'm up there directing traffic one time and I see this two and a half ton truck come by and there's a guy I went to high school with in the back of the truck and he was with the quartermaster company which was just over the hill �because we had an air strip right there with a small reconnaissance plane you know 19s now 20s but he was in the quartermaster companies just across- wasn't that far away. That was kind of funny. One other story about Korea that I remember vividly, we went- we went on big whack so we’d been on the big whack and they said okay we’re moving and so we moved, it was at night, we got to this new place at night, set up our tents at night. Everything was at night, so we all went to bed and soon got our tents set up. And then early in the morning, I guess we were there a couple of days. The first morning I got up and I - I walked out to the road didn't have any idea where we were because we... from there we didn’t get out of our compound that much, so we were out in the middle of nowhere as far as I was concerned, but still in Korea of course. And being an MP I see this jeep coming down the road just absolutely speeding, really flat out. And so, I stepped out into the road and I flagged him down and here was a man severely injured laying in the front of the Jeep. And I knew that there was a medic station right there where we were, so I said, “we got medics right here.” So, I rushed him in there and he said, “we need a helicopter.” So, we had these cranks via field telephones and we were on bivouac and we had new code names on bivouac. So, I knew the code name because I’d called a helicopter before. I knew the code name was Nashville, so I said, “give me Nashville” and they said, “we can't do that” and I said- they said, “it’s a term we can’t use” I said, “don't give me any crap I have an injured man and I need a helicopter right now.” So, he talked to somebody and said put him through to Nashville, so he put me through to Nashville. With a helicopter attachment 1212 back to the hospital in Uijeongbu. And he said, “so what do you need.” I said, “I've got a man down.” He said, “where are you?” I said “about ten/ twelve miles west of Uijeongbu on this road there's this a school across the street that we built. Looks like a �brand-new school.” And he said, “we’re on the way.” So, I hung up that field telephone, I looked at my watch and it was ten o'clock in the morning exactly, he said- and then the guide told me to throw out a smoke flair to signal the helicopter, so I went over to the medics and said, “you got a smoke flair?” “Yup.” I said, “hand it to me.” So, I'm standing there waiting to pull the pin on the smoke flair. While were all standing there, they're working on this guy, getting him ready to go to the hospital and by the time I heard the helicopter, it was over us. So, I pull the pin on the smoke flair and flew it out, he may want it’s help to set this helicopter down. The medics loaded him on, they had ladders on both sides of the bell helicopter, they loaded him on and he said, “okay, we’re on our way” and I looked up and he was on the way. I looked at my watch and it was ten after ten. In ten minutes, they were on their way. Interviewer: They’d gotten good at that. Alright, did you have Koreans working on the base? Oh yes. Interviewer: And what kinds of work did they do? Mostly kitchen and housing keeping service. Of course, they had- one as a servant in the office quarters. He got into trouble, he urinated in their orange juice. They looked for him and we never did find him because... (laughter). He was given the death sentence, they wouldn't have killed him, but they probably would have tried, but they weren't too happy about that. (42.00) Interviewer: And did you have any Korean soldiers who were assigned to you. Yeah we had what you called Katusas and yeah the Katusas, they drank in the same barracks with us, we got along great with the caduceus. They were wonderful Korean �people and at that time I didn't like Korean food, and they would come back smelling of Korean food, you could smell them when they’d come in the barracks, “what have you been eating?” “Oooh good kimchi,” yeah well, they didn’t use breath mints either and so you could smell those guys when they’d go on out leave and come back, because oh man they reeked, and I’ve since learned to love that food myself, so it’s… it’s very healthy for you. But, but when it was Korean help, I noticed their diet was almost- almost one hundred, almost 100% rice. I mean they would eat a wash basin full of rice for lunch and a few vegetables but mostly rice. They’d bring rice in by big bags and they’d cook it themselves and use chopsticks they’d eat a lot of rice the help did. Interviewer: Now were these guys also working as MPs? (43.24) The Katusas were MPs, we worked with them and it was nice, I really appreciated working with them because they could work enough English so that we could get by and they taught us a little Korean so that we could understand a little Korean. Interviewer: If you went patrolling in the village and things would they come along? Oh yeah, oh yeah, and they were- they were good ambassadors but they were also, they saw something that was wrong, they would- they would make the Koreans toe the line I mean they didn’t- they didn’t take any nonsense from anybody but they were very friendly and the people were friendly towards them and they sort of knew who the Koreans that were troublemakers. And they would say “that bad person” or something like that. And we didn’t really, we didn't have too many conflicts because they settled all those conflicts. �Interviewer: Right. Now you mentioned when you were there that the first night about the people who would try to come in and steal things and so forth, was that going on on the days… was that going on on the base? Yeah, they were, that's why we had perimeter guards, all our compounds had perimeter guards. And some of the help would steal things, even the help would… and when the help would leave, the MP company stayed, the MP company was right next to the MSR so all the people in the divisionary, the help would walk past our guard shack leaving. And it, it became routine for us to check, they would steal, they would take stuff like grease drippings from the bacon, they’d have a whole pail of just grease or cooking leftovers and our routine was to take a stick and poke those buckets because often times there might have been a pistol or a rifle parts, or some other contraband in that grease down at the bottom. And so, then we apprehend those and turn those over to the Korean police. We had a good relationship with the Korean national police. They were-they were extremely brutal, the Korean national police, the corporal punishment was routine and if you stepped out of line, they would kill you, there was not no ifs ands or buts about it. They would shoot and ask questions later. And I stood next to a Korean policeman who was aiming at a Korean who was running and the guy standing next to me bumped him just as he shot and it really made the Korean policeman angry, because he knew it, we didn’t want to just stand there and see someone shot, but he said that that guy was a gangster and he needed to be shot and so he was angry with us for not letting him kill him and we were just, we were just too easy going I guess at that point. (46.29) �Interviewer: Now did you get to go any further? Than the local towns. Did you get into Uijeongbu or Seoul or anywhere? Well I went to Uijeongbu with just a national police station and then one on a Sunday afternoon because I was admitted to go into the village. I took my camera and sort of made it a- a of course at that time you take thirty-five-millimeter slides. I took about a hundred slides of typical Korean when I was there, and I’ve been thinking about getting those transferred onto a CD or something because there’s a way you can do that, or something like that. But I got a nice little trip that showed Koreans in their natural habitat and I had one other instance when I, I almost cry when I tell it, but we’re one patrol at night and there was a group of us, MPs and we had- we had these guys sort of cornered so there was probably ten of us MPS and we were moving in to make an apprehension. And just as we came out of the corner there were little Korean children by a small light. They were singing, “jingle bells” in Korean, “nahhnoonahhh” and we just stopped, all of us just stopped. We just pulled out C rations and gave them candy bars, forget the guys. We just sit and sat there and talked to those, I mean they couldn't speak, they couldn’t speak any English but of course there was a lot of, what do you call it, Eurasians or something you know. The children of GIs and they were outcasts of Korea they... Koreans didn’t want them, so it was a real real problem… but children left over from the GIs of the war and some of them wouldn’t have been there when I was there. I mean cause I wasn’t there that long. Interviewer: Yeah (48.33) �But that was a very touching story and I’ve told it a lot of times, we just we forget, we quit chasing the bad guys and we sat there with those children and we melted to hear Jingle Bells, when we haven't heard anything like that in months! Even though they were singing in Korean, we understood what they... we knew the tune. That was one of those night time experiences. Interviewer: Alright, and did you get any leave time or R and R or anything like that? We did, we- I got to Japan and that was a very very nice experience at the special experience I got to go to a services hotel. The second time I got to go to Japan, our orders came in late in the day and so we’re hitchhiking to Inchon to Kimpo to get a flight out to Japan to Inchon and the military kind of shuts down in the evening so here comes this Korean civilian Jeep and we were kind of apprehensive, and the guy sitting in the front seat says “jump in, where are you going?” and I said, “we’re going to Kimpo.” Well he says, “my name is Dr. Charles W Choi” and he says, “I went to Syracuse University I’m a professor…” and he went on and he was a professor of engineering or something like that and I thought well this is great and he said, “I'm going to Seoul but my driver will take you on out there” he said, “I did a lot of hitchhiking when I was in your country.” He said, “when you get to Japan look up my family because I’ve got a couple of daughters.” I said oh boy just an old boy from Alabama and, this is really a set up. So we got to Japan and I made a call and called his family, they invited me out, I had to take a train out there, found the family, they invited me in, of course I had to take my shoes off at the door and that sort of thing, in the military you wore your boots all the time. I took my boots off at the door, then they fed me some banana stuff I’d never eaten before, but it was alright I mean… and he said, “my daughter will take you around and show you the sights of Tokyo.” So, I went with her and she ordered a cab driver, it wasn’t really a date, it was sort of an excursion. My buddy from Alabama, he didn’t go, it was just as well because he kind of stayed drunk most of the time while we were over there, and I think he would have spoiled the whole thing. But for me it was very educational, experience, I really appreciated the family and it was nothing sexual or anything about that encounter. It was just a very nice family and they took us in and it was just very very nice to me and so that was a very interesting experience when you’re scared to death to get in a civilian, Korean civilian Jeep, because you don’t know who... who’s back there because the people who can afford a jeep can be really bad people at that time. And we were unarmed cause we’re going… most of the time we carried out arms with us all the time but when you’re going on an R and R and you have to check your arms- in the arms room. But yeah that was a- that was an experience to meet a professor from Syracuse University. We’d taken his training there. (52.08) Interviewer: Now how much communication did you have with people back home while you were in Korea? �Mostly letters and then my mother would send packages and send cookies that always went over good, sometimes if... they were, they were mostly crumbs by the time they got there but if she sent them on aluminum you could make a funnel out of it and eat the crus. But they didn’t survive the bouncing around at the military post office. Interviewer: Alright, now do you also, aside from pictures, picked up at least one souvenir out of Korea, and you’ve actually got it over here and if you wanted to pick it up and... Hold it up high enoughThere was a Korean craftsman who came around andInterviewer: could you hold it up a little bit higher? There we go, yeah. And he said, write down on a piece of paper my name and what I want on it and he said for two cartons of cigarettes I’ll do this. So, he said you give me one carton now and when I come back, give me another carton, so I did, and I kept this ever since. Interviewer: Alright so it’s got your name on it, identifies your unit and it’s got the US flag and the UN flag and the South Korean one on it. What else have you got on the bottom there? Just the years I was there, oh that’s the hourglass divisions is the 7th Division patch, and they cross pistols are indication of the MPs and then the(53.44) Interviewer: Right, you’ve got your dragon through the whole thing. Alright, we got that okay. Alright so when do you then get to leave Korea? When did what? When did you get to go back to the states? I got back in June of ‘56. Interviewer: Okay and how much time did you have left on the enlistment? �Seems like about a year, so I went there then I went to Fort Stewart Georgia and resumed military police patrol duties. Interviewer: Okay now was that when you got married when you were back in Fort Stewart? Yes As opposed to being in Fort- because you mentioned being married back at Fort Jackson. Well between Korea and Fort Stewart. Interviewer: Okay, so did you- did they give you some leave time when you got back from Korea right? Yes, I got I think I got, I don't know how much I- we got. Interviewer: Okay, alright and so what was that last year at Fort Stewart like? Well that was just normal police duties and of course driving cars, which I’d been driving Jeeps for six months now I get a car, that was different. Again, the military police is fairly well disciplined place so if somebody steps out of line, you know you’re right there, you writing them up. Then of course we also had civilian traffic at Fort Stewart, so we, we apprehended a lot people who were hunting on the military reservation illegally and then the federal majesty would come in hold court and we'd have to go and testify that we caught this person and he was- the fines for hunting illegally on military reservation was very steep, even at that time. In fact, they would confiscate their shotguns, their rifles and sometimes it’d be a thousand dollar fine and I’ve seen them pulled a thousand dollars out of their wallet and pay their fine, but I didn’t see- I never seen anyone go to jail but trespassing on a military reservation was... Interviewer: So, these were not just poor people looking for dinner? (55.56) �No, these are… well I don’t think those people we caught, that was two hundred eighty thousand acres down there in that Fort Stewart and we did- there were some illegal moonshining going on out there in the reservation and I wasn't involved in catching it but we went out there one time to try to apprehend people who were, who had a still back there. But by the time, by the time we got the word they were going on the raid, they, they had the word that we were on the way and they were long gone. There was- you can’t surprise anyone down there that’s in that business, they, they have a second sense that they've been caught, so they flee long before we get there. But it was a large military reservation and there were some bad accidents down there and that sort of thing but other than that... (57.00) Interviewer: Okay and then your wife was living with you on the base with you at that point? Yes, we lived in married housing. Interviewer: Okay did she have a job of some kind? She worked on the base at the health center, she was a secretary in the health center. She had to get used to the differences in languages of people down there and people said, “go out and roll your glasses up” and she said “glasses?” And they meant the windows in the car, they were referring to the windows in your car. There was a lot of little terminology that we had to learn moving to a different part of the country. Interviewer: and did the army make any effort to encourage you to stay in? Oh yeah, they really put the heat on at the very end. They give me all kinds of incentives, and I said no I don't think so. You know, so I said, I would reenlist if they would send me to CID school, criminal investigation. “Well that school’s been full for several years they only �take so many candidates.” I said, “that’s it, that- if you promise me that,” “well we’ll put you on the list.” “No not on the list, I gotta have sure orders that I’m going there, without those orders I’m out of here.” But my company commander, my first Sergeant, I went to church with them down there in that chapter. So, we weren’t strangers, in fact in the chapter we were kind of buddies, but then once we get back to the unit, we understand the chain of command. But one little addendum to all of this, in 1993 I got a chance to go back to Korea. With a group of pastors from Michigan and that was a real eye-opening experience because I did get a chance to go back to Dongducheon because what used to only be four-wheel drive then is now a four lane freeway coming in from the south. So, to see that country, the difference between the 1950s and 1993 was daylight and darkness. There were no tall buildings left in Seoul in the 50s, everything was destroyed or knocked down and now we ate dinner in a sixty-story Hyatt Regency hotel building in 1993 and they were getting ready to host the Olympics shortly thereafter and they had a great deal of publicity about how good their country was. And they didn’t underestimate it, they had done a tremendous job of rebuilding that country. (60.00) Interviewer: Alright, now when you’re leaving the military did you know what you wanted to do next? Well I wanted to get back into police work, but God had different plans for me, I felt called to ministry so I kind of, after a couple of police administration and public safety, I opted for ministry and went off to a college and became a united Methodist pastor. �Interviewer: Alright, okay well i think that’s about to the end of the story and it’s also the end of the particular tape. So, I’m going to close out here by thanking you for taking the time to share the story. Thank you very much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BaileyP2116V Title A name given to the resource Bailey, Paul (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-18 Description An account of the resource Paul Bailey was born in 1936 and opted to join the Military Police after graduating high school in 1954. Bailey attended Basic Training at Camp Chaffee, Arkansas, and then Fort Gordon, Georgia, for advanced training to become an MP. His first regular assignment was at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, during which he noticed the pervasive racial segregation of the south. He was then sent to South Korea where he was statationed six miles from the DMZ and border with North Korea. Bailey returned to the U.S. in 1956 and spent his last year of enlistment at Fort Stewart, Georgia. After leaving the service, he worked a couple of police administration and public safety jobs before entering the united Methodist ministry in which he studied to become a pastor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bailey, Paul F. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cc902dc392f39df636d88e81de435269.MP4 b4f853f83530208d3e29284f87a748a9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/28d144a8139424b34d1f5cdd542fd770.pdf 4f8cab734c7ab9849b70feb91a3345ec PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Civilian: Bruni Johnson Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Sarah Schneider and Grace Balog Interviewer: We’re talking today with Bruni Johnson of Palatine, Illinois and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now, Bruni is a civilian who lived in Germany during and after World War Two so we’re recording that side of the story rather than a veteran’s story today. Okay, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born? Civilian: I was born April 17th, 1937 in Berlin. Interviewer: Okay, and what was your family doing for a living in those days? Civilian: That is a little bit of a long story. Can I tell you that? Interviewer: Sure. Civilian: Actually, my father used to own a toy and doll factory in a southern part of Thueringen. He is an artist. Interviewer: And Thueringen is a province in Germany? (00:00:55) Civilian: Yes, and Thueringen, or Thuringia, is, you know, in the middle of Germany. It has a beautiful black forest. And my father’s business was declining naturally because people didn’t have money and they spend their money more on food than anything else. However, he did get a big order from the United States. He did make a very huge shipment to the United States. That was, I can’t tell you exactly the time, but it must have been around 1932, 1933. And because we �had then our leader, Führer Hitler, he refused to pay to the United States government money that the United States government claimed we owed them for the first World War. I don’t know the story, I can’t tell you the facts, but that is what I know. And hence there was a president during that time, he felt that the United States people, or businesspeople, did not have to pay the bills. That was a death shock for my father; he lost his business. He had to then move to Berlin and became, out of necessity because nobody was interested in art, he created art from sugar. In other words, he made very elaborate, beautiful creations from flowers and whatever you can think of made out of sugar, marzipan, and chocolate. That somehow left his job at a very famous entertainment and restaurant, called Wintergarten, in the middle of Berlin. And he became the general manager for a short while and then he became very famous for his creations so he was asked to teach that in a school, a vocational school or college. And that’s what he did and actually he stayed with that job until he died. He was only 74 years old when he died. And so, they lived in Berlin, but they had a very meager existence. Actually, at that time they lived in an apartment. And that apartment eventually became part of the Russian occupation, but we should go one step at a time. (00:03:50) Interviewer: Right, you should. Okay, now how many children were in your family? Civilian: We had three altogether. My sister, she was born in 1928 in a town called Coburg which is adjacent to the town where my parents came from because my parents had a big villa there and my father was doing well in those days. Then after they moved to Berlin, my brother was born 1933 in Berlin. And I was then born four years later. (00:04:30) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now if your father—you mentioned he had an unusual sort of job by the end but—and he was able to do that through the time of the war? �Civilian: Yes, he did that pretty much during the war. But then of course after the war there was nothing. And he then, by force of nature because of his creativity, had to learn how to make cakes and that helped us to survive. He got work then as a baker. He wasn’t really a baker, but we did anything we could. Interviewer: But that’s what he did. Alright, now what kinds of—now you’re still a very young girl when the war happens—what can you tell us about what you remember from that? Particularly— (00:05:24) Civilian: There is one memory that I have actually in there, written. My first memory was a very happy one. My father was enlisted in the Army for a short while, although he was not well. And I remember him coming home and I must have been two years old and people say you can’t remember that, yes, I do remember when he came home. And it must have been in 1939, 1940— no later, because he was in—already left the army. And I remember he took me to a fair and it was a very happy moment for me to see my father in a uniform, coming home, taking me to this fair, buying me candies and a balloon, or something like that. And that’s the first thing that I remember. Then, everything is a veil and I can’t remember too much about my childhood in Berlin during that time. But I know that my mother used to take me always to Thueringen, or Thuringia, to the town where she came from and we stayed with my grandmother. And eventually she—in the beginning she used to take me back home because she had to take care of my sister and my brother. But then eventually they left me there and I stayed with—first with my grandmother and after she died and the house went into the hands of one of the older brothers, I stayed with an aunt further down the hill where the house was from my grandparents. And that is the time I remember the most. My sister meanwhile—I have to say that something that is very important to me—my family was always very independent, so my sister was very independent. �We were not joiners, we didn’t join the boy scouts, girl scouts, or whatever. And my sister refused to join the youth movement, the youth’s girl’s movement, the BDM. Interviewer: So, the Hitler Youth. Yep. (00:07:38) Civilian: However, she eventually was forced to go to a—what they called a labor camp. That’s not a labor camp prison type, that is where they used to send young women to learn how to cook and sew and become good German housewives. And my brother was by then, which—I remember he was born in 1933—he was in high school. And in—before, two years before the end of the war, 1943, the whole entire high school was evacuated and sent to an island in the Baltic Sea. And they had to stay there and it was actually very meager. But I remember visiting him with my mother and I remember that island, that’s all I remember about that. That school— eventually, two months—I think it was in February 1945, the school was again shipped to Denmark as refugees. But that refugee camp turned out to be a prison for them for three years. And that town is called Oksbol, it’s a very famous story. And he lived there. And I—actually, I was just reading the letters he sent from there. It’s sort of a bit of a sad story. And we had no idea where he was or whatever happened to him until the Red Cross sent us a letter and said yes, they are in Oksbol in that camp. The whole school. There were I think 250 students there. (00:09:27) Interviewer: Okay, because in February of 1945, Denmark would still have been under Nazi control. Civilian: Yes, it was. Yes, it was and there’s a newspaper article about that—that the German occupational forces were not informed that there were refugees in Denmark. I can give you that newspaper article because I just happened to read it. Interviewer: So, they didn’t…So, German refugees are being sent to Denmark and the German authorities in Denmark didn’t know they were there? �Civilian: No, they didn’t know that apparently. Interviewer: Okay. (00:10:00) Civilian: It’s a very interesting story. I have that stuff in the front room. So, that …well that, you know. Interviewer: But then once the Germans surrendered, then the Danes just kept them interned essentially for some time after that? Civilian: Well, that—you know, that became the end of the war in 1945. I mean, that didn’t really happen very long. I don’t even think they had time to bother. The soldiers were tired. There was nothing much left in the army. People were just scattered all over the place. I think it was just…everything was in shambles already. But nobody wanted to admit that, especially not the Nazis and the whatever. Interviewer: Alright, now to go back to your story. So, you spent a good part of the wartime on the family property? (00:10:49) Civilian: Yes, and I—it was a very interesting time. I was very happy although I was very lonely. I missed my parents an awful lot. And we had to…I was very happy living with my aunt. She had a beautiful big yard with a lot of apple trees, orchard, and beautiful flowers. Of course, they were taller than I was because I was very little. But as small as I was, I do remember I had to help my extended family. They were farmers. We had to work on a field. I had to dig up potatoes. Child labor they call it. I enjoyed it. And picking up corns, helping with the hay, and we had to collect herbs. Or herbs. And there were a special kind of herbs that they made tea out of for the soldiers on the front. We also had to pull out something—it wasn’t cotton because I don’t think we had that. I don’t know what we pulled out to make cotton…And I had to use my little fingers and we did that. And actually, I don’t remember being unhappy about doing any of �that work and we had to work hard. For that recompense, we got a huge slice of bread with butter on it and in the beginning, still a cup of milk and that was …we were in heaven. I was quite happy and content there. I remember my time in that town always in sunshine. But it wasn’t always sunny, it was raining but my memory doesn’t go that far. And I have that all written down actually. There is something in my personality that prevents me from remembering really bad moments. And I think that is due to my…the incredible, wonderful nature of my parents. They made us feel that it’s just the way it is. They did not make us feel that we should feel sorry there is a war. They did not make us feel that we are hungry and starving and freezing to death in Berlin. In—when I was living in the country, I always had some food and that was very nice. What do I have…What else could I…? (00:13:25) Interviewer: Well I guess when you were living with your aunt, did your aunt have any children or were you the only child there? Civilian: No, my aunt had three children, but they were not staying at that house. Only one cousin, an older cousin. And he was actually responsible because nobody really talked to me and I learned to speak very late in life at that time. But what he did, he taught me how to read and I wasn’t even in school. And they had an attic and I could sit in that attic and I could read some of the books, I mean as much as I could read, and I thought it was absolutely wonderful. It was rather primitive, the house. They built it in the last minute because my uncle used to be the gas master. They had a gas station and when that was closed, he lost his job during the war. And he built that house and it had sort of a little addition in the back that was a stable for a goat and there was also the outdoor toilet. And something that I remembered about that toilet, it was always cold in there in the winter, it was freezing. But when I was allowed to go back to East Germany to visit twenty-five or so years after the war ended, I could have sworn the same flies were still �humming in that toilet. It was the weirdest thing. And my aunt’s goat was a life saver because she used to make—she had a centrifuge—and she would make goat butter out of it and I just love goat butter for the rest of my life. And yes, we had…I had a good time. I had a little boyfriend. Actually, his mother lived up on top of the hill in that house that my uncle had taken over. And he had a very bad alcoholic stepfather who used to beat his mother. And he and I used to sit in my aunt’s garden at night and pray to the moon, we didn’t know much about God, and prayed. We prayed that his father would stop hitting his mother and I prayed that my mother would come back. I was so lonely. So basically, that’s my story. And then, I was sent back to Berlin. (00:16:00) Interviewer: Now, you had told me when we—before we did the interview, you told me a little bit about what was going on on that estate, on that property, what your uncle was doing. Civilian: Yes, I’m glad you bring that up because when my uncle took over that particular estate you can call it, it was called Bachelors, you know, a little mountain castle. And it was a beautiful big house. My Grandmother had 12 children and he was I think the third oldest or something like that and he was an engineer, he was a very smart man. And he used that estate to manufacture parts for Hitler. I didn’t know then what it was. I was under the impression always as a child that they made some sort of electronic parts. And the workers that worked there were all forced laborers. I believe they were Russian, Ukrainian, and Polish. I only talked to one of the ladies, her name was Olga, because she was Polish and she spoke some German. And she also showed me where these forced laborers had to live. Underneath the building was the stable and they had to all sleep in that stable and they were fed out of the dog dishes. But they were fed. How well? I don’t know. But I know she was always very, very sad and upset. That’s the most I can �remember. Much, much later—actually this year, I found out that there apparently was something that was manufactured is very secretive and nobody could find out what it was. I have no idea what it was. (00:17:41) Interviewer: Alright. And so then, when did you leave that area? Civilian: Yeah, I was in…back in the beginning of 1945. I do not remember when. I only remember that I was sitting on a train by myself and the train track was…the train was supposed to take me back to Berlin but it made a detour because the rail ties, you know the rail tracks, were all bombed. And at one point, the train had to stop and couldn’t continue. And I remember sitting outside, not knowing what to do, and some...somebody—some family came up to me and gave me a sandwich and they eventually took me into their home. I don’t know how long I was with them. And I stayed with them and I don’t remember much at all about that time, but I remember coming back to Berlin not speaking German. I spoke another language. I was actually…I started school in Thueringen, you know, in that part where I lived. And I was 6 years old in 1943. And we started school with those old little slate boards that you had and a, you know, a slate pen. But it lasted only about 4 weeks because then we lost our teacher. I think he was either drafter or whatever happened to them. And I didn’t have any schooling until I got back to Berlin. And then even later, much later, because we didn’t have a school in Berlin. And I arrived in Berlin. I don’t remember how, but I got back. I do remember the bombing and it was horrendous. You were constantly afraid. You constantly heard the alarm going. You saw the…you heard the hissing of the bombs. You saw what they called Christmas trees, that was phosphorous bombs that they sent down. We had to wear gas masks in the basement. I always thought I was going to suffocate with that stuff. You know, it was just a gas mask that they put on your face and you couldn’t breathe. And I to this day, my children could never understand it, I �cannot go to a fireworks. And I cannot listen to the fireworks and I cannot watch them. It’s a very scary thing that happens in your life. Even every Tuesday, the alarm goes off in our town. It frightens me because I think of the alarm stages that we had in Berlin. Interviewer: The air raid alarms, yep. (00:20:33) Civilian: And if you were on the street, you had to run and try and find a bunker or something like that. Sometimes you were left in the street and somehow miraculously you survived. And right and left, the buildings were burning and falling apart. Not in my area so much, because I was in the northern part of Berlin. Only when we went downtown to visit my father where he worked and visit my aunt who lived in the middle of—or in the city center, actually. And there was not much transportation, so you had to walk, and you’d walk for hours and we always walked. I remember even in East Germany when my mother came, food was scarce during the war and after the war. We used to walk like 2-3 hours to some mountain area where there was a forest and we used to collect blueberries. And after about a whole day of collecting blueberries, you’d have maybe a little bucket full of blueberries and you came home and they put buttermilk in it and then we ate it with boiled potatoes or something like that. Interviewer: Alright. Now you had mentioned to me before we started the interview that during one of these bombing raids, I guess the house pretty much collapsed on you? (00:21:44) Civilian: Yes, that was—that happened. That must have happened when I was—I don’t remember exactly when it happened but it must have happened before or after I came back, maybe I was home at that time for a short visit. Interviewer: So, you might have been visiting, so it might have been earlier in the war? �Civilian: Yes, and I don’t remember the year. I could have asked that gentleman that was 90 years old that told me about it. A bomb went down actually not adjacent, my parents lived in an apartment building and those have blocks. And there was a building next to our building and then there came a second building. That one was bombed and the explosion made the wall collapse that we were sitting next to, my father, my mother, and I, and we were buried. And I guess that’s where I developed allergies against dust because we lived—we stayed there three days almost because nobody knew we were buried. Nobody looked for us. My sister was in that so to speak labor camp and my brother was in Denmark, wherever. We didn’t know where he was then at that time. And…Oh no, maybe he was on the island. I do remember that. Anyways, so then they finally dug us out and unfortunately the explosion caused… I had hearing loss and nobody knew and nobody checked it. And all my life long, especially as a child, I was always told, “Oh, you don’t concentrate well” and I was—I felt stupid, dumb. I learned then, eventually, to stare at people and I concentrated very hard. I was always sitting in the front row because I couldn’t hear in the back of my classroom and nobody figured it out. I didn’t find it out until I came to the United States and went to a hearing specialist and he said, “Oh, you have had that since childhood.” Interviewer: Okay. Thank you, yeah. Okay. Do you remember being rescued from the basement or do you just know that it happened? (00:23:58) Civilian: I don’t remember that. That is the funniest thing. I don’t remember that. I only know that eventually they dug us out and life continued as usual. It was just the way it was. You lived in a war. You accepted that as a child, probably my parents felt different about it but they didn’t show it to us. They made us feel good, they were very… my mother was an extremely cheerful person. My father was very witty. And they always tried to make us feel it was a normal thing. �It’s just the way it is. And that’s why I don’t remember. Like I said, a lot of things I totally block out. Interviewer: Now, after that bombing, did your family go to a different apartment? Or just…? (00:24:42) Civilian: No, we stayed in it. It was only the basement wall that collapsed. Interviewer: Oh, okay. Civilian: And that wall happened to be actually right underneath our apartment. We lived on the first floor. How our apartment did not collapse, I have no idea. It’s a miracle to me yet. But you know when you were younger, even when I was a teenager, and dad and I went back it never occurred to me to ask—to ask anybody what happened. It was just something that, just like when I was in high school, we had history lessons until 1928 and then it stopped. You didn’t ask questions. Now, I can tell you the story much, much later when I really found out what Germany actually did. We heard about concentration camps. I remember my brother and I we used to joke as kids “Oh, if you don’t do this, I’ll put you in a concentration camp.” But we had no idea what happened in those concentration camps. I’m sure a lot of people did. But we didn’t. Interviewer: Well, you were very young at that time. Civilian: Yes, I was very young and maybe my parents knew, maybe they don’t. I don’t know. It never occurred to me to ask. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so during the war you’re kind of moved back and forth a little bit between the country and Berlin. But by early ’45, you’re back in Berlin and now you stay there until the end of the war? Civilian: Yes. (00:26:11) �Interviewer: Okay, are there any other incidents or memories or things that happened before the Russians came in that you want to bring into the story here? Civilian: Yes, I remember one incident very clearly that was shortly before the final end and the Russians were already on the outskirts of Berlin. And a young Hitler Youth came into the basement—we were sitting in the basement—and he told those people, the men, old men, sick men, old men, to come with shovels and forks, anything they could find, and go to about five minute, ten minute walk from our house there was an S-Bahn, an L station. There was a bridge and they were supposed to defend that bridge. And shortly thereafter my father comes back and he said, “We threw our shovels down. We are not going to fight with forks and shovels against the Russian tanks.” And then they came home and that was then the end. Well, before that, I only remember on April 17th it was my birthday. And it was a sunny day. My aunt came from the center of the town with my cousin and she brought me a beautiful pink necklace and we were actually happy and had some little cake or whatever we had and it was a nice day. And then a couple days, three, four days later it must have been the 21st. I don’t remember. That’s when the Russians marched in. That incident with the old men and the forks and shovels happened. And like I said, my sister wasn’t there, she was still in the labor camp. My brother was where? We don’t know. And my father and my mother and I, we were standing in front of the house watching what was happening. We all knew the war was over, for some reason. And a Russian truck stopped in front of the house and Russian soldiers came out with machine guns and they took us to our apartment and we had to line the wall and we thought they were going to shoot us. I never will forget that feeling. And…but they didn’t. But we were—we were so petrified and scared. I thought I was going to die. And shortly thereafter, another truck comes and they unloaded all the wounded Russian soldiers and they brought them into our apartment, used the �whole apartment to put the injured people there. And I remember my—our bedroom was emptied out…Wait a minute…No, that was—our bedroom was in the front and the back was the family room and I—we had a beautiful black, shiny piano there. And they put their spiritous cookers there and to make the instruments and they opened—took the dining room table and operated on the Russians. And actually, I had to watch them cut off legs and stuff for some reason. I don’t know why I was there. It was a very scary experience. And then they used our curtains, drapes, and rolled the dead bodies in them and buried them in the back yard. My mother again was incredibly courageous because those Russians that came were very poor little souls. They had no shoes on. Don’t forget they were marching. They had only rags wrapped around their feet. They didn’t know what a toilet was. They used the bathtub and then they used the toilet to wash themselves. So, my mother went in there and showed them what to do and dumped them on the toilet and took all of the dirt out of the bathtub and showed them what that was for. And that was the only thing I remember about that. It was a horrible time. And we had to live then in the basement and it was sort of provisionally repaired down there and what my parents and I felt sort of very sad about was that none of the neighbors offered us to stay in their apartments. That’s the only thing I remember. (00:30:58) Interviewer: So, the other people were all basically left alone? I mean, now— Civilian: Basically, the Russians…Yes, it was a crucial experience to have that hospital there. But in a way it saved our life. We were protected from rape. We were given food. They had what they called a goulash burner outside on the street. We got even some meat. That was usually horse meat. And they basically protected us. There was one—they had a general and I believe he was a Russian Jew because he spoke some German. He was a very elegant man and he saw the newspaper on the table and it was called the Voelkischer Beobachter, The People’s Observer, the �only paper they had and said, “Ah that paper.” And I remember that one so clearly. Eventually I think they left. What else do I remember about them…There was an incident when we, and this too is in Thueringen, a lot of women were raped. And a lot of them came then to the Russians and they helped them. They repaired them, they helped them. [she explained off camera that the “help” was in the form of performing abortions for the women and girls who had been raped by the Russians] Interviewer: Okay, so they went to the hospital? (00:32:21) Civilian: Yes, they came to the hospital. But the whole neighborhood then eventually wound up in our apartment you know for some medical service and walked away with all the dishes. You know, this is something very strange. Interviewer: So, your neighbors robbed you instead of the Russians? Civilian: The Russians did not take anything away. My parents lost all of their possessions because after my father was bankrupt and they had to give up their villa in Coburg, they had a— what do you call it…you know, from a farm…What do you call that—no. Where you store things on a farm, what do you call that? Stable? Interviewer: Yeah. Civilian: Okay, they used a stable in their town and they stored all of their valuables there. And I don’t know how close the American armies were to the concentration camps, but basically all of our possessions probably wound up on the bottom Ellison Bay. I mean not Ellison Bay, the island by, what is it called? The island by New York … Interviewer: Oh, Ellis Island. (00:33:31) Civilian: Yeah, that’s right. We don’t know it, but they were the only ones that actually robbed us blind. And then after the Russians left, they did not take anything away. Came the French. But �the French, they knew how to find whatever we had hidden in the piano. That was a piece of cloth for a winter cold and a jar of pickled rabbit because we used to have rabbits in the backyard to feed us you know and that’s about it. My—we all had to try and survive. We raised chicken in our apartment and whatever we did. Interviewer: Okay, now you had before—you have got some material that you had written down. Have we covered what you had in there? Or…? (00:34:19) Civilian: Yes, I think pretty much everything. I can only maybe read to you the beginning because I tried to put things together. “It is almost too late to try to remember my childhood. I should have taken the time to keep a diary of sorts, but never felt my life was worth remembering. Yes, I have some cherished memories, but much of my childhood in Berlin is hidden behind a grey veil. It appears that I remember mostly happy moments in my life in Germany albeit I don’t think there were that many. But I remember most as a small child is my time in Schalkau, that is that small town in Thuringia, where my mother was born and raised and married my father. And this memory is quite blissful, content, and was much sunshine even rainy days. But I only remember the rainy days sitting in my aunt’s, Tante Paula or Aunt Paula’s, small attic, reading. Feeling safe and dry and hearing the rain tapping on the roof. It never sounded threatening to me. Oh, I had some sad moments in Schalkau because I was so immensely lonely without my parents, who stayed in Berlin with my sister and brother and then they were gone. And they had to endure the constant bombing raids, but my mother was commuting back and forth and was often in Schalkau, especially when my Grandmother, my Grossmutter, was still living. The rest of memory is being hungry, being cold: very, very cold all the time. I remember the sound of the alarm, the noise of the airplanes, the hissing of the bombs, the phosphorus socalled Christmas trees, the explosions, the gas masks that made you feel like you’re suffocating, �and again the hunger, fear, running for cover, trying to find a bunker if on the road. To this day I can’t tolerate the sound and even to look at a fireworks.” Alright, that’s about basically it. (00:36:26) Interviewer: Alright. Now, let’s go to the point—we’ve gotten now to the end of the war. So, you’re—the place where you were living was in the part of Berlin that became the French zone? Civilian: Yeah, it became the French sector. Interviewer: So, you’re in West Berlin at that point? Civilian: Yeah. Well, it was… Interviewer: What would become West Berlin, there was not a wall yet. Civilian: It would eventually, you know they made it then the Russian part and then the western part. And the western part was the French, British, and American sector. And unfortunately, we were in the French sector. They were okay to us, but they didn’t really…we didn’t—we never benefitted from the air lift or anything like that because they didn’t feed us very well. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. So, let’s kind of—let’s try to follow that a little bit. Civilian: And then actually the hunger and the fear and the freezing came after the war, worse than before. (00:37:13) Interviewer: I was going to ask that. Okay, so you’re—when they—course when the war ends, it’s sort of late spring and so the weather isn’t too cold for a while. You have summer months coming, but there’s not a lot of food… Civilian: Nope. Interviewer: …and the French come in and they don’t help. �Civilian: Well we went—we would then leave our home and go into the outside areas of Berlin and try to visit farmers. It meant if there was a train, we took a train. Most of the time we had to walk for hours and hours and we exchanged some whatever valuables against maybe some rotten cabbage and some potatoes. That basically was all the food you had. There wasn’t very much. Eventually, we got some bread and we ate our bread usually with water and then if you had sugar, you’d put a little sugar on top of it. It basically was the entire food we had for a long, long, long time. And when you boiled the potatoes, because they were rotten, you couldn’t peel them. The peel was, you know, very thinly peeled off. We collected that because once a week a farmer came with a horse drawn wagon and he had little bundles of wood because we had no heat and we couldn’t have a fire, we couldn’t cook, we had nothing, and he would exchange those poor little potato peels against a little bundle of wood. And then I remember that he always had a little bell and he said, “Brennholz fuer Kartoffelschalen,” burning wood for potato peels. That was the most exciting moment always and then we had a little bit of firewood, you know, that was…long time, but then came an extreme severe winter after that and—Oh yes! Now, I remember because I know there was something. After the Russians settled, the Americans settled and everything, I don’t remember exactly when it happened, but it was still summer time. I don’t know if it was in 1945. Possibly, because the American army established in the southern part of Berlin and there was a command officer—office—in a place called Mexikoplatz, Mexiko so square. And they needed a baker. And one day I was alone at home. The doorbell rings and again I see people in uniforms—it must have been the same year, ’45—and I was scared to hell and I pushed the door closed and I was so scared and they didn’t let me close the door and then somehow my mother appeared from somewhere. They were Americans. They wanted my father. They had heard of him because he was known through his teaching and stuff like that and he had to go with them �and work there. And he had to also take a little room down there because we had no transportation and once a week my mother would take a men’s bicycle and put me on front of that and ride the bicycle through Berlin for three or four hours and then we could visit my father and then we used to go through the…Americans were always a little bit used to spoiling things. They used to throw a lot of food out that we, you know, gathered from their garbage and then ate it, you know. It was helpful. It was very helpful to eat, you know, some old can of soup or whatever that was. (00:40:54) Interviewer: Okay. Now, was your father paid? Could he do anything to help you then? Civilian: I don’t know if he was paid money but I know he used to get bread and some food and bring it home. Interviewer: Okay. Civilian: I don’t know. But it did help us survive. I am sure they must have paid him something but I—I couldn’t tell you that for sure. Interviewer: Alright. Civilian: Yeah, I do remember that after the war, one of the incidents was that we got a care package for Christmas. It was Christmastime. And I had my doll kitchen sitting in our living room. That was the only present you used to get for Christmas, was build up the doll kitchen. And a care package came and there were—was a little food in it. I believe it was a family from Texas. And four candies. And we were four at that time: my mother, father, my sister, and I. We each got a candy. And I remember taking my candy every night, I unwrapped it, sucked on it, and put it back and it lasted for a whole week. It was—it was wonderful. And then of course, they started sending in food and that was the airlift then. And yes, it was so interesting because we didn’t—we had no idea what sweet potatoes were. They were dried squares of—we thought it �was carrots. And we tried to eat it and it broke our teeth up because we had poor dental treatment. We had no treatment, period. And until we learned that we had to soak the stuff and cook it, and stuff like that, you know. We didn’t benefit too much from the airlift. Like I said, that stayed mainly in the southern part, the American sector and the British sector. The French sector didn’t get too much food there. But that’s why I think my father’s occupation actually helped us then. I don’t remember how long he worked for the American Army and I don’t remember what he did afterwards but he always worked. And somehow, it sustained us and we could get food. (00:43:06) Interviewer: At what point did he start becoming a baker? Had that happened during the war? Or was that afterward? Civilian: It must have happened…I don’t—that’s what I would like to find out or wanted to find out now when I was in Germany. When did he learn that? For—when he was working, I think, it must have still been in the Wintergarten, that restaurant. He also worked for a famous restaurant, Kempinski. And he was also there the manager for the food section there. And somehow, he along the way must have learned how to make cakes. And then he also worked for another very famous bakery in Berlin then eventually. But he was also—he was never really getting much money. We just had a bare existence. And…But he taught all the way through when it started again. School for me started much, much later than normally. I think I started school really then when I was about 8 or 9. Because I was—our grammar school was bombed out and we started school then in a factory. And it was wonderful because you—they could heat this place and it was warm. And we had a wonderful teacher and she was very encouraging. And we also got food. So, when you went to school, that is what we used to look like. We had little—I just found these marks on the paper. We all went to school, more or less dressed or not. And we had little �buckets with us and we used to bring food home. And I remember the most horrendous food was always sauerkraut soup. And then some sort of a cheese soup. It was awful. Even though you were hungry, I didn’t like it. But I brought it home for my parents and we all shared it. (00:45:10) Interviewer: Okay. Now, at the time of the airlift, did you understand much of what was going on then? Or were you worried the Russians would come back or were you not really having a sense of that? Civilian: By that time, we felt very enclosed. We felt totally…Berlin was enclosed. Nothing could come in; nothing could go out. Unless you went to the eastern part. And you felt like you were suffocating. There was no—there was not a tree left in the streets. Everything was cut down. You would use your furniture to burn in the stove so you could heat a little bit. When the airlift started, I remember very late. They start the airlift at the airport Tempelhof. And there was another one in Gatow. And they built an airport near where I lived, near Tegel, which is a very famous airport now. Well actually, the only one in Berlin right now. And they started with I think I saw one or two airplanes arriving. And I had no shoes and we all were running to the airport which was a long way to walk. And I remember I was running on the gravel, hoping I would get a candy because we all heard the Americans were throwing out candy. Well, I didn’t get one candy. By the time they came to us, there was no candy left. So, we were so disappointed. We all treaded back home very sad. Oh, another thing I remember also because it just dawns on me what we did. We had no clothes, right? So, you wanted to go swimming so you took your old socks, you unraveled the wool, and we knitted swimming suits. Two tops swimming suits, to go swimming. And then when the summer was over, we unraveled the swimming suit and knitted socks out of it again. It was hilarious, you know. Because I remember �I had one blue swimming suit that was constantly going back and forth from sock to bathing suit. Yeah, that was about it. (00:47:18) Interviewer: Must have been—must take a while to do? Civilian: You learn to knit quite fast. Interviewer: Okay. Civilian: You know? Interviewer: How long did conditions stay hard? I mean, you’re like… Civilian: A long time. Berlin was really, I think, one of those cities probably not as bombed as Dresden but because we were so cut off, it took a long, long time to recover everything. I remember grammar school was horrible. We were then going—we were taught in a burned-out building. And it was sort of like a little bit repaired. And then they had a barracks outside. And we had school there. My schooling was very poor, actually. I do remember a teacher there who was very strict but then at the end, I had a very, very good teacher because he encouraged me or made sure that I and another girl were allowed to go to a high school. We were already 14 at that time. We started high school much later than the rest of the people. We had to do everything in 4 to 5 years that other people achieved in 8 to 9 years of high school. And we had to work extremely hard. And since the school was still burned—the schools were all damaged. We had to share a school in a boys’ school. There used to be a boys’ school and a girls’ school next to each other. The girls’ school was damaged. And we were the first girls in a boys’ school that started there. But we shared with the girls’ school. So, one week we had classes from…I can’t— morning to noon or 1 o’clock. And then one week, we started in the afternoon. We always had to switch school times, which was quite exhausting because when you had school in the afternoon, you came home and you had to do your homework until midnight or whatever because there was �a lot of homework to do. And it was horrendous. And yet I tell you, my most of my educational background comes from that high school. I was extremely well-educated there. (00:49:53) Interviewer: Okay. And then, how long did you stay in Berlin? Civilian: Well, after I start—I left high school, I had several options. They had just opened a university, called Free University. And I applied there and also was accepted. And I had signed up for three subjects: Germanistic, Anglistik, and Romanistic—English, German, and French, which was ludicrous. And I had to—I started with German and then I wanted to switch to the English department. They told me they didn’t have a space for me. And I had to go to England. And in order to get to England, I needed a visa. And in order to get the visa, I had to accept a job as an au pair. A lot of young people did that. And I went to a town called Croydon and I was sort of an au pair/helper for the children. I did a little cleaning in the morning and in the afternoon, I could go to college there. And I did eventually pass my lower and my higher Cambridge certificate: proficiency of English. Interviewer: Okay. (00:51:15) Civilian: Yeah. That was it. And then, I went back. Interviewer: Do you remember what years you were in England? When was that? Civilian: I think it was around 1956-1957. Interviewer: Okay. Civilian: And then I came back and I had to work in Berlin, I remember, but I don’t remember why. I was still signed up for the Free University but it didn’t work out so—Oh, they told me I should go to France first. My French was so poor. I really basically didn’t know any French at all because of the little bit we had in high school was not sufficient. So, I went to France basically on the same principle but it was supported by the university. And then I ultimately stayed there �for two years. In the beginning, I started at a place called Alliance Français and then I could switch over to the Sorbonne and study there and got my certificate in French there, my certificat en français. (00:52:13) Interviewer: Okay. Now, how did the people in England and France treat you? Civilian: That was interesting. I am glad you bring this up. Never questioning anything. Nobody talked about it. I told you history lessons ended in ’28. We knew something happened. We had a lot of people that came back from concentration camps and talked to us about it. But it would— really didn’t register. In England, people were very nice to me until the very end. I met somebody that she was very nasty to me. What never occurred to me is—I always felt boy, the whole world bombed us poor Germans. It never occurred to me that we Germans bombed London. And we bombed the whole world. And that was okay. Then I came back when I was in France, I lived happily ever after. I had a boyfriend. He was a French Jewish gentleman. And he explained to me what happened and what we did. And I was in shock. I can’t even tell you that. And I remember my parents visiting me in Paris and I asked them. And I said, “Didn’t you know?” And they said, “Yes, of course we knew but we didn’t talk about it. We heard about it. We didn’t actually know while it was happening but we heard and found out much later. And when they showed us all the pictures, how terrible and what happened there.” The thing is, when I was living and I remember that before and after the war, we had—my parents had two—several friends, and two couples were Jewish. One couple disappeared. We don’t know if they moved away or what happened to them. The other couple stayed only the husband was killed in a war. But we always had the highest respect for Jewish people because they were extremely welleducated, they had their own school, and they were wealthy. At least the ones we knew. And we looked up to them. And when I heard that story, I was crushed. I was crushed. I got literally sick �to my stomach when…Andre was his name, was telling me these stories. And then I heard more and more and more about it. And it was a shocking revelation. Strange why I was so protected. Why did I not know? Although I saw these forced laborers by uncle’s factory, so to speak, but I never put two and two together. I am actually still in awe how stupid I was. That I never even questioned anything. And it shocked me. It shocks me now. And I felt guilty all my lifelong and I still feel guilt that will never go away. I know there are a lot of Germans that say, “Oh, I had nothing to do with it. I was just a child.” Well, I might have been a child but it’s my people that did that. You know? And it’s—it’s very hard to digest. (00:55:40) Interviewer: Well, we really appreciate your talking about it. I mean, that helps a lot of us on this end understand a little bit better what that was like. Civilian: Yes, I feel I had to mention that because…Actually, in our area, we had—people are prejudiced, right? My family is Lutheran. My father was actually an atheist; he didn’t go to church. But my mother was a very devout Lutheran. But we had some—a few Catholic people in our area. And you know what? We didn’t like them because they were Catholic. Just like…it’s still the same today. Interviewer: It can still happen. Alright, now you’re going out. You’re getting yourself an education. You have gone to England; you’ve gone to France and you come back again to Germany. I mean, do you now actually take courses at the university? Or do you do something different? (00:56:36) Civilian: I came back and then they said, “Well, which direction do you want to take?” And I said, “Well,” I said, “I would actually like to become a translator.” And they said, “Well, we don’t offer that.” Because I didn’t want to become a teacher. I said, “What can I do with German, English, and French? I have to become a teacher.” And I was so scared I would not find a �husband and probably stuck with a bun in my head and a dry teaching profession. And so, I switched, you know, institutions or colleges or school or whatever you would call it and I went to a translation interpretation school for two years and graduated from there. And then I got my first job actually at a bank for a short while and then I transferred to a technical company and worked there. In the meantime, I remember…Yeah, yeah. I had an American girlfriend and my parents had a Christmas party arranged at our house. And she came and she brought two young men with her, and one of them was my husband. I was engaged at that time; that’s another story. I was engaged to a German gentleman. (00:57:49) Interviewer: Okay. Civilian: And my husband—well, my future husband then, he came to the Christmas party and he was only interested in my girlfriend. She was a beautiful girl. And she was from the center of town. She was actually a friend of Romy Schneider or somebody like that. You know, she was absolutely out of my range. Anyway, he was interested but she didn’t want him. She had nothing to do with him. And he was very handsome looking. He had just been in Berlin for 4 weeks. He was drafted into the Army but he never was really a soldier. Basically, he was a musician. He would play in the United States Army Band, marching through Berlin, making people happy. And well, I didn’t think anything about it. And my sister was there with her husband. And they invited him to a New Year’s Eve party. So, here he is at the New Year’s Eve party and that was that. And then 8 months later, we married… (00:58:53) Interviewer: Okay. Civilian: …on a day that is very famous. August 13th, 1961. The day they built the wall. And that was—the band was supposed to play at my wedding. They weren’t allowed to leave the barracks. And only a few people snuck out, including the piano player. So, we had at my wedding an �American playing jazz. He was up all weekend with that, so we had to borrow a record player. And that was about it. And then I…well, we moved into—closer to the area where my husband was stationed. And I decided then to switch my jobs and I got a job with a general at the Berlin command. And I worked there as a translator and whatever. And we—until we came to the United States. Because I thought well, I married him and I am going to the United States, I might as well get used to working for an American and that was the greatest idea. There is a very interesting book around that time. It’s called Uncle Tom’s Hutte, That’s a train—a subway station in Berlin, right at that area. Should—you should really read it. When I saw—it’s a criminal story but it deals with around that time when I was just living there and experience the whole thing. (01:00:20) Interviewer: Alright. Civilian: That was…well, that’s about the end of it. And then I came to the United States. Interviewer: Okay. Civilian: 1962. Interviewer: Alright. Now, do you have any particular memories of that Berlin Wall and the crisis that followed? Civilian: Oh, my god, of course. That was just—that was just awful. It was just unbelievable. The wall? Oh my god, the wall. How could I forget that? Interviewer: Alright, we were about— Civilian: Basically yeah, I could say that in a way, we were a bit more protected. Living in the northern part of Berlin, we were not as bombed. We did not actually experience the Kristallnacht the way you would experience it if you lived in the city and in the middle of the town, the city. Because, first of all, you didn’t hear much about it on the radio or you didn’t read it in the paper. �Interviewer: Okay. Civilian: We didn’t have a television. Interviewer: Of course, that was not—because that was actually, we were talking about in between switching the tapes, this was Kristallnacht. But that—you would have only been one year old when that happened. So, that would be— Civilian: Exactly. I don’t remember anything about it. Interviewer: But what we were talking about though, right as that first tape ended though, was the Berlin crisis. And so, what do you recall about that? Civilian: Right. The Berlin Wall. Yes, that was the day I married. It was a happy day and it was a sad day because we all knew what was happening. But that was not basically all that much of a surprise; it was coming for a long time. We were separated. My aunt and my cousin—her husband had died during the war—had to actually flee, later on, East Berlin. They lived in the middle of the city and they had to leave, for some reason or another. But we used to commute all the time by subway and by rail. You know, go into the eastern part and took advantage of the culture that they had. We had several opera buildings. I mean, as a child, I used to go to the opera the way people go to the movies nowadays, right? And we used to go and buy food there, which was cheaper. That is the only thing I remember. But that was Berlin. But the rest of my family all lived in eastern—in the eastern part, which then became occupied by the Russians. And the Wall totally destroyed our relationship with these people. And I eventually was able, after so many years, to return to East Germany. And I went back with my children when they were little and I went back almost every year and it took me forever to get a visa to enter East Germany to travel. And you had to stay on the same route. You couldn’t deviate. If you had to take the train, or if you took a car, you had only to take a certain street that you could take. They timed you. And it �was—my aunts and uncles, they were all very afraid of their children because they were already growing up as…indoctrinated by the communist regime in their thinking and eventually some of them, I am sure, went even further. I don’t know. But it was…it was very unnatural and I never in my whole life thought I would have to go through such a division in your life. And I…that is why I am a little bit apprehensive about what is happening today. (01:04:12) Interviewer: Okay. Now, when do you actually go to the United States then? Civilian: 1962. Interviewer: Okay, so when your husband’s time in Germany ends. Civilian: Right. Interviewer: Now, were you able to go with him? Or did you travel separately? Civilian: No, he went back with the Army and I had to take a—I stayed home and packed my stuff and mailed certain things and then took a boat coming over. I think I came by the Bremen. I don’t know, there was a big boat. It was a weeks’ voyage. And it was quite a—Ellis Island. Yes, it was quite a joyous moment although before I met my husband, I considered Americans very arrogant and entitled. I didn’t like them. I never thought I would marry an American. That’s the weirdest thing. I did marry one because I fell in love with him. And…I don’t know why we felt that way. I have no idea. It must have been something that I heard or saw or reactions. Anything like that. I don’t know. And that’s basically it. (01:05:29) Interviewer: Alright. Civilian: And that’s the end of my life story and then I lived happily ever after here in this country. This country was good to me for a long time. It allowed me to go back to college and study and do things. And I have two wonderful children. �Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for a very good story so thank you very much for taking the time to share it today. Civilian: Well, I don’t know if it helped you any. But anyway, I can show you the pictures now. (01:05:57) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_JohnsonB2145V Title A name given to the resource Johnson, Brunhilde (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-18 Description An account of the resource Bruni Johnson was born on April 17th, 1937 in Berlin, Germany. As a young child, Bruni was sent to work on her aunt and uncle's farm out in the country during the early years of the Second World War. In 1945, she returned to Berlin and experienced several Allied bombing campaigns. After the war, the Russians marched into Berlin and Bruni's family's home was converted into a temporary hospital for the wounded Russian soldiers. Her family lived in what became West Berlin after the Berlin Wall was built and, upon graduating high school, Bruni went to England to learn English and then went to France to learn French. She later went on to college and became a translator before marrying an American soldier on August 13th, 1961. The couple then moved to the United States in 1962 to start a family together. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson, Brunhilde Anne Rika Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, German Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d9eecdc93df0e5f5229371fba793e1d.mp4 381ed79be00a4504467cf70e83178de4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2db96339cfe2bb924c6e3ea622618c72.pdf 0524254675251bbb29e36a50e67083b4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Raulend “Ron” Whiteis Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking with Ron Whiteis of San Diego, California, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Okay Ron, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: Chicago, Illinois in 1946. We moved to Indianapolis when I was 2. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And from the age of 3—all the way up from there, I didn’t really have any parental supervision. I used to wander the neighborhood. I did what I pleased. Really never got the memo on religion or anything like that. Interviewer: Okay. Well, were your parents both working or…? Veteran: My mother was deeply depressed and my father was working all the time as the head of Glidden Extraction in Indianapolis. Interviewer: Okay. And did you have brothers or sisters? Veteran: Actually yeah, I had 3 brothers and 2 sisters. Interviewer: And were they older? Younger? Veteran: 2 older brothers, 1 younger brother, and 2 younger sisters. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: So, I am kind of right in the middle. Interviewer: Alright. And where did you go to high school? Veteran: I went to Arsenal Tech High School in Indianapolis. It was a vocational high school. 78—76-acre campus. Very large. Interviewer: Alright. And when did you finish high school? Veteran: In 1966. I was supposed to finish in ’65 but I took a year off to go to the movies. I figured out the system, I worked it so I never got in trouble or got caught. For a whole year. Interviewer: You just kind of didn’t go to school? Veteran: I went every third day. Because after the third day, they had to get a note from a doctor. So, I went every third day. And then I took the rest of the time off. I had a really good time. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But mostly it was because they kept sticking me in vocational classes and I hated that. And I just didn’t—and I was dyslexic. I didn’t do well in school. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you know—were you diagnosed as dyslexic or…? Veteran: Not until I got to college. And the psychology teacher was talking about all of this stuff and said “Now don’t begin to think that you are part of that.” And I asked him afterwards, and he asked me a few questions and then after a while he said “You’re dyslexic, that’s what is wrong with you. You are not stupid.” And they gave me an IQ test and I take—I scored 126. But the one they gave me in 6th grade, I didn’t even make it to 100. Because I couldn’t read. (00:02:32) Interviewer: Okay. So, how did you wind up getting into college? Veteran: I wanted something different than the life I had. I grew up very poor and I don’t know where the idea came from but I decided I wanted—I wanted to know everything. I wanted to �know the world. And I thought that that would give me the world. It didn’t, but it taught me how to find out what I needed to know. Interviewer: Alright. So, where did you go to college? Veteran: I went to Southwest Texas State University. It is now called Texas State University. Interviewer: Okay. How did you wind up there? Veteran: I came home from Vietnam and served my last 6 months at Fort Hood. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I met a woman in Temple, Texas and I don’t know…I didn’t think I was going to get married but I thought this might be a good bet. You know? And so, we got married. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: My brother was David Garcia of ABC News. Interviewer: Okay. Well that’s sort of—that’s coming after your time in the Army. But now before. You graduate from high school in ’66? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And then, what did you do after that? Veteran: I worked for American Fletcher National Bank. I was doing computer stuff: check processing and balancing, accounts. Interviewer: Okay. So, you could work with the machines and things, you just didn’t read well. Veteran: Yeah. I didn’t have any problem with numbers, just reading. (00:04:04) Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, is this what you were doing until Uncle Sam came looking for you or…? �Veteran: Yeah. They turned me back the first two times because like I said, I was only 130 pounds and I was six foot three. Or six foot two. I gained another inch. So, that was fine with me because I didn’t want to go there. I was pretty much a wimp. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you know about Vietnam at the time? Veteran: Not very much. Not very much. I was too busy, you know, trying to figure out my life. So, I just—I really didn’t think about it, other than the fact that I didn’t want to go. You know. Interviewer: Okay. And so now when you finally do get the call—so when do you actually enter the Army? Veteran: I entered it in July of—the 23rd of ’69. Interviewer: Okay. And where did they send you for basic training? Veteran: Down in Kentucky at Fort Knox. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then down to Louisiana for AIT. Interviewer: Alright. Now you said you were not an athlete? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay, so what was basic training at Fort Knox like for you? Veteran: Like the Death March of Bataan. Every morning, we’d have to go out and run a few miles. And at the end of that, we were supposed to eat and I couldn’t. So, I became even skinnier. Interviewer: Did you eventually get into shape or get stronger? Veteran: Well, I found that there was a resilience in me that I hadn’t known before, that I would not give up. Especially when they would march us down to the rifle range every day, down Misery Hill and march us back up. And it just broke your heart because you think you saw the �top, and when you got to there, it turned and went further, and it kept turning and going further. And you—and everybody—half of the company dropped out. I wouldn’t quit. I wouldn’t quit. I didn’t know that about me. I just wouldn’t quit. (00:06:17) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: When I got to the top, I thought I was just going to keel over dead. I was just—I couldn’t see, I couldn’t hear. Moisture coming out of my eyes and mouth and nose and everything. I was pathetic. But I wouldn’t give up. And you know, I wrote about that because by the end of basic, the last time I walked up that hill, I didn’t break a sweat. You know? Interviewer: Mhmm. And did you eventually adjust so you could eat? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now the—how did the drill instructors treat you during this process? Veteran: Well, we had a few that was…treated us badly. But ours was a—he recognized that most of us were a little bit older and said “Look, if you just try, we are not going to harass you like that.” And it was a good thing because we wouldn’t have put up with it. You know, you can get a 17, 18-year old. But when you get to be 22…you know… Interviewer: You actually had a company or platoon of you that were mostly older that they put together? Veteran: Yeah, ours. I don’t know how it happened but—well, kind of. A lot of us—there was 4 different things and a lot of us got to be every 4th number so we would be together. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We figured out okay, everyone—squeeze in line up every 4th person. And then we were all together. �Interviewer: Alright. So, you found your own way there. Okay, so—now, and then, what about the…Okay, so the discipline stuff wasn’t quite as bad maybe as it might have been for another unit? Or another platoon? (00:08:03) Veteran: There was one that they replaced the drill sergeant because he got out of hand. And had some blanket parties and stuff. And see I’d have just killed his ass. I would have at that time. I figured I was going to die. I am going to Vietnam and I am going to die, I won’t be back. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know? So, I don’t have to put up with that. Interviewer: Alright. But in the meantime, you survived basic training. And then off to Fort Polk, Louisiana for your AIT? Veteran: Mhmm. Interviewer: Okay, and what was that like? Veteran: Wet. I mean, dry and dusty and just more of the same stupid stuff. And then I got a chance to go to APC training and I went to that back in Fort Knox again. Interviewer: Okay, and then…explain what that is. Veteran: That’s an Armored Personnel Carrier. How to drive one, how to drive it across the water, how to swim it. Interviewer: Okay. (00:09:00) Veteran: And then when I got to Vietnam, they put me in the infantry. Interviewer: Alright. So, was the APC training on top of the infantry training at Fort Polk? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, you basically had 3 stages of training there. That was two. Veteran: Yeah. Well, if you’re already going, why not? �Interviewer: Okay. Now at Fort Polk, what—how was that different from Fort Knox in terms of what you were doing? Veteran: I think that they were a little less intense at Fort Polk. And they were willing to listen to the men. And one of the men went down and told the—wanted to see the commanding officer and said the food here is awful. And he came down and tried it and raised holy hell. And then he came down there every day to ask is this good? Is it good enough? You know. Got any complaints? Tell me. And we had good food from then on. (00:10:00) Interviewer: Alright. So, you’re experience in the Army has allowed for some push back. Okay. Now, how did the APC thing happen? Were you just…? Veteran: They asked if anybody was interested in signing up and I signed up. I didn’t think they’d call me but they said yeah. So, then they shipped me out there and I learned how to drive one of those big—it was fun. It was fun. You know? Interviewer: Alright. So, you just got to play with big machines basically? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And how long were you then doing that? Veteran: I think that was like a 6-week course or 5 weeks. I don’t know, it wasn’t very long. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, when did you finish that? Veteran: Sometime in the early part of December, I think. Because that meant I had a month leave, and then I had to report back: California, January…I want to say the 12th. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You know, they just processed us, put us on a plane, flew us to Japan. Alaska to Japan, and then Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay. Was it a military plane or a chartered civilian plane? �Veteran: I don’t know. It was a pretty big—pretty big plane. There was no first class. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They wouldn’t let us off and it was a little disheartening when we got to Japan and all the crew got off, then flew us to Vietnam you know. Interviewer: Okay. And where did you land in Vietnam? Veteran: I want to say up near Huế or Da Nang. Da Nang I think. Interviewer: Da Nang quite possibly, yeah. Veteran: Yeah, Da Nang. Interviewer: Okay. And then what happens to you when you get off the plane? Veteran: They put us in some crappy barracks and that’s when I found out that I should have brought money because people were having little quiet meetings with the people who were assigning jobs. And I snuck around and looked and saw they were passing money and I thought why didn’t I get the memo on this? I could be in Saigon. You know? In a comfortable berth. Interviewer: What did you get instead? Veteran: I got to go to Huế and then up near the…I am trying to think. It was Fort Campbell firebase. It was up near Quang Tri. (00:12:18) Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. I am not sure which—there is Camp Carroll but that is a little bit farther inland. Veteran: Well, this was out. Interviewer: Okay. But basically—Okay, well what unit were you joining? Veteran: The 101st airborne division. Interviewer: Okay. And when you first come up to join the 101st, do they give you some kind of orientation before you go to your unit? �Veteran: Yeah, they had the—we’d be on call all night long at the perimeter. And then they’d have some classes and I fell asleep in one and the lieutenant gave me a grenade to handle and took the pin out and said “Now you won’t fall asleep.” And I said “Boy, you really are the stupidest motherfucker I have ever seen in my life because when I fall asleep, I won’t know. You all will be dead.” Interviewer: So, what happened to the hand grenade? Veteran: Well, he was very nervous and cut the short—cut the lesson short so he could get it back and put the pin back in it. But I thought that was stupid. You know? I could have fallen asleep and killed everybody there. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did they teach you anything useful in that training? Veteran: No. No, not at all. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: All conventional, not jungle. Interviewer: Alright. So, you get a few days of that and then what specific unit do you join? Veteran: They sent me out to the unit…I think it was 2nd battalion of the 506th? Interviewer: Okay, 506th regiment. Okay, and then which company? Veteran: Company B. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And the captain there took one look at me and said something disparaging and get rid of him along with that other one too because they don’t look fit. He was a gung-ho, Rambo type and so they shipped me off. This was a lucky thing, you know. Because they shipped me off to a bunch of short timers. And I begged them to show me everything they knew about staying alive �because they survived the A Shau Valley and they must know something. And they did. (00:14:22) Interviewer: Okay, now just explain this a little. So, you go in to—was the company in the field? Or were they on the— Veteran: Yeah, they were in the field. On the hilltop. Interviewer: Okay, so what was the company commander—he just didn’t want to look at you? Or…? Veteran: No, he said something about what the fuck is this crap here? You know. Get rid of it. Interviewer: Okay, but he wasn’t—they didn’t actually send you— Veteran: He wanted robust men to go out and fly out at a moment’s notice to fight. Interviewer: Sure. Okay. Veteran: And I didn’t look the type. Interviewer: Yeah, well that part I get. I am just kind of wondering: did he expect you to get sent back to the rear? Or…? Veteran: No, just send me to a platoon that wasn’t doing anything, to get me out of the way. Interviewer: Okay. So, you moved on. But then—and then that’s the point where you kind of connect with a guy who— Veteran: I was very lucky. They taught me everything I needed to know. And I used that information to stay alive. Interviewer: Okay. What kinds of things were they teaching you? Veteran: How to not make a trail. How to quietly go through, how to spot if there’s any kind of mines or booby traps or anything like that. How to read a map: how to be able to look at that map and see the best route from place to place. It’s not easy. How I could take them up and down a �mountain instead of down in a path. How to train everybody around me to hand signals so that they wouldn’t make any noise. We had to—I felt like I was following my father’s Indian tradition to—you go through the land and never make a mark. And it was great. And I took over my platoon because of that. I was a private and I felt I knew more. I wanted to live and so I took over the platoon walk point for 9 months. (00:16:10) Interviewer: Okay. At what point did you start doing that? Veteran: Well, as soon as those guys got dropped to go home and they reorganized and put me in another platoon. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so— Veteran: When I say I controlled it, I did. The sergeant was a short timer. He didn’t care. And anytime we got somebody that couldn’t get with the program, I had the company ship them off and somebody else could come into the platoon. You know? Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so remind me again. So, when did you arrive in Vietnam? Veteran: I arrived there about the 12th of January in about— Interviewer: That’s right. Veteran: By the end of January, I think I was in another platoon. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I learned quite a bit about—I’m not bragging, I am just saying this is what happened and I have—at the time, I had never led anybody. I had never taken control, I never—suddenly, there’s a different person here. Who thinks, okay, if I am going to live, I better have a hand in this. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have a lieutenant commanding the platoon? Veteran: No, we just had a sergeant. �Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so he was supposed to be providing leadership and… Veteran: Yeah, but he was a short timer and I think he kind of realized I knew more or something. He didn’t—I don’t know why, he just let me take charge of everything. Interviewer: And pretty much the rest of the guys were new guys now? Veteran: I am sorry, what? Interviewer: Were the rest of the guys new guys after that first group left? Veteran: Some of them were fairly new, along with me, and some of them were there a while. But they stuck to me. They stuck to me and I didn’t find out until much later. I felt my mission was to stay, number one—me, alive. And then protect and keep everyone in my platoon. Nobody was killed, nobody was injured. We weren’t run over. One of the few platoons that were never run over by the enemy. And I just chose to travel everywhere that would be unlikely to run into any kind of trouble that would hurt anybody. (00:18:24) Interviewer: Okay. So, at this point in time, your platoon is normally operating by itself? Veteran: And then every so often, after two or three weeks, we’d join up with the company and we’d… Interviewer: Okay, now what comp—what area were you operating in in January, February, early in the year? Veteran: Early in the year, we were down in the lowlands just by the mountains. By the foothills. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we did have some hilly country there but we weren’t up in the mountains. Interviewer: Alright. And was there much enemy activity at that point? Veteran: No. No, really not. And in March we went up there and was put on the firebase to guard it while they opened up that firebase. I don’t remember the date of it but I know it was in March. �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So…But then we were off again, roaming around the mountains. Interviewer: Alright. Well, your company—I mean I guess the 2nd battalion 506th that you were with—you were with them and they had the job of setting up a firebase on the hill that comes to be known as Ripcord. And the first attempt was in March and A company went in and they were not successful. April 1st, B company was sent there. Veteran: So, that was in—I thought it was March but that was… Interviewer: Oh, okay. So, what is— Veteran: I lost track of time. Interviewer: So, what do you remember about that? Did you actually land on Ripcord yourself? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, what happened that day? Veteran: I don’t remember much of anything except that I was trying to find a bunker. And I had seen the one down at the very end being built. And I chose that one, to be down at the very end, because it was a better-built bunker than any of the others. And just guarding the place until they took us off. (00:20:15) Interviewer: Okay. Well, that’s later because the April—1st of April, B company lands and then they leave at night. So, you’re just there on the hilltop for a day and did not establish the base. So, you don’t remember that? Where were you do you think, April 1st, 1970? Veteran: Not sure. I remember that they were building a lot of the bunkers when we got up there. They weren’t finished. And they were bringing in cannons, the 105s and the— Interviewer: Okay. That would come later once they actually had taken over the hilltop. �Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But there was, B company was on and off in the space of about a day and then they were back patrolling the jungle again? Veteran: Yeah. I remember we were just shuffling. It didn’t make much sense to me. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You go where you’re told. Interviewer: Okay. So, it wasn’t really registering with you at that point what exactly was going on? Veteran: No. Interviewer: You were on a hilltop, then you left the hilltop, and then you were patrolling. And then you come back later and the base is now under construction. And you wind up being kind of on perimeter guard for that. When you are patrolling around in the jungle, around the time when they were—before you wind up with the regular duty up on the base, was there much enemy activity out there then? Veteran: No, really there wasn’t. Well, a few others run into it. Quite frankly, I tried to avoid that as much as possible. Interviewer: Okay. Now, your platoon—was the company still operating mostly in platoons at this point? Veteran: I remember still being in platoons and running around on some of the mountains and everything and meeting up with the, every so often, with the company. Interviewer: The rest of the company. Veteran: And then dividing up and going again (00:22:01). �Interviewer: Okay. And…let’s see. So, how long were you spending out in the field, at one time? Veteran: Well…I am trying to remember. Pretty long time. We didn’t much get stand downs. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I had heard of them but we didn’t get them. I got a stand down because I got cellulitis in my knee. Puffed up real big. And they put me on a—it was foggy, you couldn’t see anything. And they had a ‘copter come in there, a slick. Put me on that slick and sent me back. And I thought well, this might kill me. You know, fast. And then the doctor said you must stay in bed and you must have them bring food to you and I thought I am not doing that. You know? And then at the…the sergeant, the company sergeant, put me on the garbage truck you could at least work. And the physician came by, the doc, and saw me and made me get down. And raised holy hell about it. And that’s when I found out that I could easily lose my leg. And—because I had to go every morning and have a shot of penicillin. You know. And that’s, you know. So, that’s when the sergeant took a dislike to me. I think he thought I ratted him out but I didn’t. It was just coincidence the doctor saw me and said “What the hell are you doing up there? Get down.” Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know. Interviewer: So, this is just one of those infections you get in the jungle? Veteran: I don’t even know what caused it. Could have been a scratch. Who knows? But it just swelled up like a melon. You know, and I didn’t realize it was that bad. I just thought well, you take a little penicillin, you’ll be fine. Interviewer: Okay. Well, that attempt—I mean maybe, that might have been when the company first went to Ripcord. (00:24:04) �Veteran: It could have been. Interviewer: Because it was fairly dramatic in most of their stories. But if you weren’t there then… Veteran: I don’t remember it so it probably—I was back at base for about 2 or 3 weeks. Interviewer: Yeah, that could be right in there because eventually B company does go there and they are the ones who do much of the perimeter guard work. And your recollection is going to that base and picking out your bunker? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Now, describe a little bit then what the firebase looked like? Veteran: Well, it was pretty barren. You know, they had all kinds of bunkers built in various, you know, construction. I picked the one that was built the best. And there was a lot of traffic in and out. And we had a select helicopter shot down bringing in ammo. They managed to get over to the pad and set down and then they come out and took it away. They didn’t learn anything that the reason the firebase blew up was because they shot one down over it and it blew up and the ammo dump blew up and the war pits went up and then the 105s went up. It took 11 hours of concussions before it finally finished. Before that we were on a hill. 805—his company—we took that hill because they were using it to shoot onto the firebase. So, we took it away from the enemy. We had a…what do you call that? We went en masse and helicopters went in… Interviewer: Combat assault. Veteran: Combat assault. And we took that. So, it meant—interesting things happened up there at the time. One, we were constantly getting struck by lightning. I mean one time, I thought there was an explosion. Another second later, it ran up my legs and made my heart beat funny, then ran back down again. And I thought whoa. I was—I did not, I wouldn’t get in the foxhole �because it was filled with water and I was afraid. The ones that were in the foxholes when it hit—they got it the worst. So, I laid down beside it. A mortar came in and there was a great big flat faced boulder. And it hit the boulder and went up like a ball of static right over the top of me. And I woke up to that, you know, and rolled over into the…And three of them, the commander and the medic and I think the lieutenant came rushing out there, because they thought I’d be dead. And they couldn’t find a scratch on me. They’re like this can’t be happening, you know, where you get hit right, like, between me and that door. It was that close. You know? Another time, the company commander came over to me and said “Get your guys together.” And I thought get your guys together? I’m a private. And he said “And go down there and check that out because that’s where they’re sneaking in on us.” And I didn’t want to take that order and I didn’t want to disobey it either so I had a thot come with me, which is a shotgun but shoots grenades. (00:27:36) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And I imagine—I went to the edge of the thing, and I imagine the grid. And I started firing them, further and further out. The company commander comes over and says “What the hell are you doing?” And I said “Making a path, sir.” And he thought about it and he said “Carry on.” And it turned out really good because when we went down there, they had—the Viet Cong had dropped all of their weapons, including a machine gun and ran off. (00:28:07) Interviewer: So, there were Vietnamese trying to get into the perimeter? Veteran: Oh yeah, every night. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We didn’t fire back. We didn’t let them mark our positions. Interviewer: Okay, so what— �Veteran: We had a lieutenant that was great with artillery. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And he would call it in on them every night. Close. Interviewer: Yeah, so—so they basically said—would they get into the wire? Or were they outside of the wire? Veteran: Well, we didn’t put wire up on the hill 805. Interviewer: Oh, that’s 805. Okay, I am sorry, I was thinking of Ripcord in the south but you are talking 805. Veteran: Oh no, we hadn’t gone yet. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: The company C decided that they wanted off Ripcord because they were constantly getting mortars in on them. And I don’t know how they arranged it but one day we got notice that, I think company A, came in to cover for us and we got to the firebase and took over for them. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Walked over and they went off into the jungle. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, yeah, so you have your field time with—around hill 805. When—did you have any Vietnamese scouts with you? Veteran: I had a scout earlier than that. For a very short time. I don’t know what happened to him. Nobody wanted him. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: So, I said “Okay, he can hang with me.” You know. And he used to cook up all kinds of strange food and share it with me because he wanted me to taste this and try this. Well, it could have been dog for all I know. You know? But it was better than C rations. Interviewer: Okay. And was he any good as a scout? Veteran: I really don’t see that he had any input whatsoever, he was just sort of there. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know, and he didn’t advise me to anything. He figured I was doing pretty good, I guess. I don’t know. I remember that time that I used to keep all the food that they sent out, where other GIs threw their—some of their least liked food away. Because when we ran out of food and everybody was real hungry and they’d come over and want some food, I’d give them that food. And also, I was known as the library because I carried several books. And people would bring me a book and they would exchange it for another book because sometimes you’d be out there and you’d be camped out there and no place to go and nothing to do. And they would read for a little while, you know, to take their mind off things. You didn’t get to read very often but you know, it was there. And so, I carried a lot of books. Books are special—were precious to me at that time. (00:30:53) Interviewer: You were able to read them? Veteran: Well, not very much at a time. You know? I remember that when we were—when the firebase was exploding, I had a book called How Green Is My Valley. I still have it. I haven’t read it since. But I would talk to myself: if I could just read one more page, and then think about what to do, it would keep me from panicking. Because they would come around and jump into the—my little pit in front of my bunker and you could see in their eyes. They were like some psychotic horse in a burning barn. And you’d try—I tried to talk them into coming in and �staying, but after a little while, they’d jump up and run off the mountain. You know, so…I pretty much was on my own but it used to scare the hell out of me when they would just jump in. Interviewer: Alright. (00:32:00) Veteran: You know, you could see that you couldn’t reason with them. You could see that they were beyond reason. Fully panic mode. And I, every time, it made me panic and made me feel like I should run too. And I thought no, that’s not safe. Interviewer: Well, was there even a place to run to? Veteran: Well, just off the hill. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Off the mountain. And I don’t know what happened. Some of them, I guess, got killed running off the mountain. But I managed to just…I’d sit there, read the book, and I don’t remember what I read and I read the same page over and over, about 20 or 30 times that day. You know, trying to, you know…A little candle in there to read by and try not to panic, try to hold it together. Try to, you know, tough it out. And I guess I was down there—my mate for the bunker left and I don’t know where he went and I was down there by myself for 3 days. Trying to stay awake and falling asleep. Trying to figure out the enemy were coming up the mountain at any time. You know and…And I would have still been down there until the enemy come up, if somebody hadn’t thought to send somebody around to all the bunkers to make sure everybody was out. Interviewer: Okay. So, basically, you’re in the last weeks of the Ripcord campaign. There’s a period there in July of 1970 when essentially there is regular bombardment happening. And you’re pretty much pinned down in the bunkers most of the time? Veteran: Well, we came out and did stuff and then run to other bunkers. �Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I was cleaning up on the top of the hill some stuff and taking it to the side of the hill, the top of the hill and throwing it off. This was after the explosion, everything blew up. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And we’d get incoming rounds and I would run in this bunker but that one day, a series of things happened and I don’t know how. But 4 or 5 guys, I guess they are rear echelon people because they had no sense, to walk all the way down there in a group. You know? And it really irritated me. And they—we got incoming, and they ran into the bunker that I was using. So, I went across the top of the hill to the bunker on the other side and it was not a very well built one and I thought this is really dumb. Through all of this explosion, you are running across the top. And then when I got all clear and came out, they took a direct hit right in the doorway. It killed two or three and injured a whole bunch of others, and I would have been one of those. And just because I got angry that they were all lollygagging around, coming down the top of the hill like they were back on the—home on their block. You know, I knew they weren’t infantry. The infantry wouldn’t have walked all together like that. So, and I just—it really irritated me. Now, I wouldn’t go in there. (00:35:13) Interviewer: Okay. Now, was this on the last day? Or…? Veteran: No, it was not— Interviewer: A couple days before? Veteran: A couple days before, because then they told us to get in our bunkers and stay there. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And then I stayed there a couple days by myself. And I… Interviewer: Now, was it normal to have just one man in a bunker? �Veteran: No, it was supposed to have 2 but I don’t know what happened to the one that was in there with me. He may have run off the mountain, he may have gotten killed. I don’t know. There was nobody to talk to and I didn’t have a radio to contact anybody and I was just down there and that was my post. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then that’s where I had to stay. Interviewer: Alright. And…So, we get to the last day, which would be July 23rd at that point, and they evacuate the hilltop. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And so, you were just there and somebody came to get you? (00:36:03) Veteran: Yes, somebody came around to say send somebody around to all the bunkers, check to make sure everybody was out. And they come down there and say “What the hell are you doing here? We are leaving! Get up to the top!” So, I got all my stuff together in my rucksack and everything and I thought—my legs were all shaky from fear that they would leave me. And I started up the trail and I thought that’s really stupid because you can’t go around the side from bunker to bunker because you don’t have the strength in your legs. You know? And about halfway up, I looked, I was looking around, and there was no sign of anybody and I thought they had left me and I kind of gave up for a minute. And I just kept wondering why they didn’t lob something in on me or kill me, you know? I was a perfect target. I didn’t know at that time that the Vietnamese—Viet Cong—were coming up the mountain at that time. And so they stopped firing on us for fear of killing their own men. (00:37:05) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So— �Interviewer: So, there was no incoming fire then at that point, when you are scrambling up the hill? Veteran: No, nothing. It was just dead quiet. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I almost gave up. I had the moment of giving up and then I decided, I don’t know, something kicked in. And I decided this is not where I am going to die. And I cussed myself. Move it. Move one foot after the other. Come on, you can make one more step. And I did that all the way up to the top. Crawling along real slow. And when I got to the top, two guys ran out and grabbed me and ushered me into the bunker up there. Lieutenant said “Get to the back drop, everything. Get back up here and in line.” So, I went back there, I put a long range patrol in this pocket, I put my wallet with all my family pictures in this, I put on a canteen, I put two bandoliers of ammo, I grabbed my thump gun and I grabbed my M-16 and I went up there and he said “Drop all of that! You can’t take that with you.” And I said “The hell I can’t!” Now, where do you go from despair to total anger? And I said “Because if that helicopter gets shot down and I’m not dead, I am walking out of here. I’ve got my map, I can do it.” And I just knew that I would do it. I knew that I could go out at nighttime, because I had a terrific night sight. In fact, when there was only stars, I could see the enemy on another hilltop, moving around. Other people—I thought everyone could see that well but they apparently can’t. (00:38:40) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I just knew that I was going to get out of there alive if it didn’t kill me. And then the helicopter was coming in, he didn’t have time to argue. He said “Go!” and I ran out there and jumped on the helicopter before it even hit the ground. And 4 or 5 guys jumped on top of me. And they bounced and took off down the side like that and an explosion went off and I thought �we are hit, we are going down. And then the next thing I know, they were coming up and going out through the valley. And I thought wow, I thought we were hit. You know? And then everybody got off me and sat up and I was able to sit up and look around. I thought this is, you know…When I was up there, there was only about 10 or 12 people left in the bunkers, so I know that there was only one more slick coming in. Those helicopter pilots…They are the bravest people I have ever heard of. They kept coming, no matter what. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They got us out. No matter what. Interviewer: Now, were they getting fired on? Veteran: All the time. They were getting hit. I remember one coming towards the mountain and I said “Everybody get down, he’s been hit and I don’t know if he’ll make it.” He just barely made it over the lip before he—it conked out. You know. But you could tell he’d been hit. So, they came in. I don’t know, I’d never seen anything that brave before. They came in and they got us wherever we needed them. (00:40:16) Interviewer: Okay. So, when you were making your trip from the bunker back to where the helicopters and stuff were coming, so that part, you were not taking fire? Veteran: No. Interviewer: That was just quiet. But once you get over to the side—well I guess, when maybe when the helicopters came in, did they all start taking shooting? Veteran: That’s when they came in. They had it all marked out. They had it all zeroed in to that pad. And they would come in low and they would come up on top like that and set down. And I jumped on it before it even set down. And 4 or 5 guys jumped on top of me, it bounced and off it �went. And the explosion went off and I thought we are hit. We are going down. But that was on purpose; they went down low and went out through the valley. Interviewer: Yeah, and I guess before you left the bunker, when you were still down there in the bunker line, did you see any Vietnamese out there? Veteran: No. I kept thinking they would be coming up the mountain soon, because we didn’t have anything to protect us, you know, other than the perimeter guards. And they never did. I thought that was odd and I don’t know, I thought it was odd that nobody was shooting at me while I was making it to the top. Because I was a good target. You know? I was very—moving very slow. I had the most dreadful case of wobbly knees. The whole way up there I thought, you know, there’s no way, they’re gone. They left me. You know, there’s not a single person in sight, not a helicopter coming in, not a sound. I had been left. I don’t know what I was going to do. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So… Interviewer: So, now you’ve made it back, and you get back to Camp Evans. Now what happens? Veteran: I stood on the pad. We were told to go to the company but I couldn’t leave until I saw the others come in. You know, I just stood out there and I watched the helicopters come in to see if all of our men came in and everything. I just—I couldn’t leave it. I felt like why me? I’m her safe. They are still out there. So…And then we had to turn in all our weapons and everything and go to our company. And then they took us to Beatle Beach? (00:42:36) Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: For our serve—that’s the first time we got R and R. That was already in July: from January to July, you know, that’s the first time we had a set down. You know, stand down. And �that month, they sent all of my money…No, it wasn’t that month. Yeah, it was. They sent all of my money home. I had an allotment for my widowed mother. And they sent all of my money home that month and I didn’t have any. And so, the guys shared up some money. And because I didn’t drink beer because beer made me sick, one of the officers kept going in and getting me a high ball and bringing it out to me so I would have something to drink, you know. Interviewer: So, he could get liquor in the officers’ club but you couldn’t get it? Veteran: You couldn’t get it, you know. Interviewer: The enlist club. Veteran: I am 22 year—23 years old at that time. But not allowed to have, you know, hard liquor. Interviewer: Alright. Now, after the whole R and R kind of period there, do you go back out in the field again? Veteran: For a long time, we were supposed to wait until we got more people in and they kept having us do little things and training and all kinds of stuff. It was just to keep us moving, you know, and finally, I guess we went back out sometime in August. But we didn’t go all the—they had such bad weather, they trucked us out. And dropped us off out there in the foothills of the rolling hills. We didn’t go back up the mountains right then. And then, my R and R came up and I was called back in to do my R and R. And I had put down, I had purposely put down R and R for September so I could get Australia because I thought well that would be great to see Australia, but the previous company clerk sold it to somebody else. (00:44:43) Interviewer: Oh. Veteran: And I wouldn’t take R and R. I said “If I can’t go there, I will just sit here for a week. I don’t care, it’s not a big deal.” “No, you have to go someplace.” I go “I am not going to Bangkok �and I am not going to others.” Some of these guys came back with some dirty diseases that I couldn’t walk near, and I am not…Of course, I—mostly it was because I was a virgin. So, I wasn’t going to go do that activity. I just—it felt so sleazy. So, they said, “Well, if you’ve got somebody that could come meet you in Hawaii, we will send you there.” I said “The only person I’ve got is my mother and I don’t know if she’d come.” They sent out the paperwork and everything and she met me in Hawaii and we paddled around on the…Hawaii. The people there wouldn’t let me buy or pay for anything. Everywhere I went, you know, no matter whether it was a store or anything, they just kept saying “Oh no, no, no. No money.” We went to see Don Ho. And for my mother’s age, she was a good-looking woman and being a widow, Don Ho had somebody come out and ask her if she’d come up on stage with him. He had a bar in the back. So, he kept her up there for hours and I am like when do I get my mother back? You know, and he was…it looked very intimate. It was kind of embarrassing: my mother is being romanced up there by Don Ho, you know? And you’re not going to give her back? Do I discreetly leave and pick her up later or what? I don’t know what to—what’s the protocol? You know? So, eventually they sent her back and they had taken pictures up there and gave us the pictures of her up there with—so that she’d have a memento. And it was very interesting. You know. And we went to a few night clubs and saw some acts. I got to see some…what do they call that? The—it’s a famous bar there that all the celebrities went to. It was right in the…it was right in one of the main hotels or something. I can’t think of it now but I went in there and I thought this is where the celebrities meet? It’s so tiny. You know, it’s just a bar and there’s no tables and stretches on down to the end. You know? And we stayed at the…I can’t even remember the hotel we stayed in. It was right there on the beach. So, it was interesting. I enjoyed the time that we spent there, you know. It was the first time I was able to get any news of anything going on. They, you know, �I hadn’t heard anything since July of ’69. I had no idea what was happening in the world. (00:47:52) Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I had never heard of Kent State. And even to this day, somebody will say something about—in the past and I’ll think I don’t remember that…Wait a minute, was it in 1970? Yeah. And that’s why. You know, it’s like you’ve lost a year of memory. So… (00:48:13) Interviewer: Okay. And then, what was it like having to go back to Vietnam at that point? Veteran: Well, it was…it was kind of sad. With—I thought, well, you know you made it this far. Maybe you’ve got a little luck still. You know. I figured it was about fifty percent luck and fifty percent know-how. And that’s kind of modest. Well, not very modest but it’s the way I felt about it, you know. And so, we went back there, we went up in the mountains for a while and…Patrolling around and not much happening. Then next thing I know, they were calling for me to go back early. And then they put me on perimeter and they processed me and we were out there for a couple weeks, I think. And this Indian guy, Gabe Muselah. I remember his name because he saved my life. He—when I first met him, he was shipped out there and he went around and talked to a lot of people and got to me and asked me questions about things. And apparently, whatever I said was right because then—from then on, he stuck close to me in our troop, you know. He was looking for the best possibility for himself. And I understand that. I was, you know, I wouldn’t want to be with some of those. GIs are dangerous, especially if they don’t know what they’re doing or they do something stupid. You know? We had a guy carrying a clay bird, always putting it on. And I said “Don’t do that, get rid of that. That’s dangerous. You go out there one of these times, they’re going to booby trap it.” “Oh, no, I look at them pretty careful.” Went out there one time, blew it up, he was dead. It was very shocking, you know. I �shared a nighttime position with him. And they put his body in a bag and this sounds a little…little insane. I spent the night talking to him. That’s crazy. (00:50:29) Interviewer: You mentioned that fellow, you said he saved your life? Veteran: Gabe. He—some, one of newcomers came in, they thought they heard a noise and they popped a grenade. I already lost hearing. I didn’t hear it. And they threw it, only they threw it at us. Because the positions, one was out in front of the other. They threw it over onto us. He pushed me into the foxhole and jumped in on top of me. It exploded and all kinds of rocks and everything came down on us and I thought oh my god, I made it this far and then die? Because of some cherry over here that doesn’t, you know, is scared of the dark? Interviewer: So, this is stuff when you were on perimeter duty? Like at the very end? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: This is just before getting sent home and I thought this is—there weren’t—how tragic is that? How tragic is that? When, you know, you make it all this way and then some Jerry blows you away with a grenade. And Gabe got out his knife and he went out there to kill him because that’s the way you were at that time. You were just nuts. You know? And, but they, the patrol, got down there first and got him away. And he came back and said “They took him away. I didn’t get a chance to kill him.” You know. But, in normal talk like that, that would be something normally you would do. You know, you’d just—normally, you’d just kill them. Interviewer: At what point was your hearing damaged? Veteran: On the firebase. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: Well, it started over up at the explosion that went off on 805. And this—out of this ear was facing it. That’s the worst ear. But after eleven hours of concussion everything, explosions and everything, I just noticed after that I couldn’t hear my watch tick and I didn’t hear a lot of things. And I thought well, it’s probably good that we’re getting close to the end because you know. You’d need, at night, you’d need to hear your hearing. Really bad, in case anybody is trying to sneak up on you. And I had excellent hearing, excellent sight, before that. So…I would have probably—I would have probably been just sitting there until the grenade went off, because I didn’t hear it. He heard it and he jumped. Pushed me in there and jumped on top of me and I’m forever grateful for that man. (00:52:43) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: He was a Zuni Indian. And we became friends, you know, before that. We took a perimeter guard together, you know. Interviewer: Okay. Was that sort of the last adventure you had in Vietnam? Veteran: Yeah. Then they sent us on a…one of those big, fat looking planes down to Huế and processed us and I didn’t sleep for days. I have pictures of me there: the circles under my eyes, you know? And everybody was trying to be nice on the flight, you know, and you know. And they took pictures with us and stuff, the ladies on the flight, the stewardesses. And you know, we were joking and carrying on and like when they get ready to take off, everybody raise your legs. You know, like it would help you get off the air and off the ground. And it was a—we flew to Guam and then from Guam we flew to Seattle. And then they, I thought it was very funny, it was like they wouldn’t let you go anywhere. They kept you bottled up and then they escorted us to the airport and took us in there with a, you know, like you’re going to process to get them processed through and put me on a plane. And they put me on first class. And they flew from �there to Denver and I didn’t even get a chance to notify anybody. You know? And then they put me on another plane and I finally fell asleep. And apparently, I was moaning and carrying on and everything and they kept waking me up and I would go “Why are you waking me?” You know. “Sir, you’re making a lot of noise.” And I didn’t know I was making a lot of noise. You know? And I got home and found that my mother had given away a lot of my stuff because she had the idea I wasn’t coming back. Sold my baby grand piano, gave away a lot of my clothes. I had a comic book collection and I was sorry to see that go. You know, from when I was just a small kid, I collected them. And they were all in—you know, I kept them in real nice shape and everything. I just…I thought that was just odd, that she had given up hope or something, that I would come back. (00:55:21) Interviewer: So, like after she had been out to see you in Hawaii, she got rid of all that? Veteran: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Maybe she— Veteran: Maybe it was a protective thing, you know, to—that she needed to protect herself because she had bouts of depression and everything and maybe she just needed that to think that—get it done and stop worrying or something. You know, I—I felt a lot of sadness from my mother. She made a lot of trouble for herself. Life was not good to her. It could have been better but she just gave in to it. And I found that I had the opposite: I won’t give in to anything. I can’t—I didn’t know I was—I didn’t know that about myself. I didn’t know that I was just that stubborn. That I wouldn’t give in at all. You know? And when I—they sent me, I got leave to after Christmas and then they sent me to Fort Hood. And they wanted to play war games and I said “This is stupid.” So, I went over to the captain and I said “Hey, I hear you’re having trouble organizing KP help? I can take it over and I can run it. And you won’t have a lick of problem.” �You know, and he said “Okay, go ahead.” So, I did. I called in certain people from the field that wanted to come in. I had a list of more people who wanted to come in. And I made up the schedule and I said “You only get one script and you go back to the field, somebody else is in here. 3 men on, 3 men off. You work 3 days on, 3 days off. And do what you want but you better be here when it’s time. And no griping, and you work your butt off and you clean and you scrub pans and everything.” The cooks were happy. They were just…this is wonderful. You know? And then they—I was sitting outside reading, because when we finished, we would finish up our work early and go out and take a break. And the captain—the sergeant came by and said—told me to get over there and pick up this trash and take care of that. And I said “No.” And he said “Oh yes.” And I said “Oh no.” And I got up and I walked into the thing and I knocked on the captain’s door and I said “Look, if this is going to work, we are not going to be doing other duties.” And he told the sergeant “Leave them alone.” He liked that I had it arranged, you know. Where does a spec 4 get the idea to just say no to somebody? You know? Get that stubbornness? (00:58:03) Interviewer: Well, people—my impression is, when people come back from Vietnam, at least sometimes did, there were things they weren’t going to put up with anymore. And— Veteran: Yeah, you had your chance to kill me: you didn’t kill me. I expected to die. You know, I had already figured that’s it, you’re going to die over there. That’s it. Or, you’re going to come back—well, when I took that shrapnel in my back, I couldn’t feel my legs for a few moments. And I hit it and knocked it and got it off my back where it was burning through three shirts that I was wearing. And burnt me on the back and made me for a moment paralyzed. And I thought oh god, please don’t let me be paralyzed. You know? And then, they wanted me to come in off the post and I wouldn’t do it. I was like “This is not hero stuff. Don’t come out here: don’t come out �here because then everybody will know where we are at.” And they did anyway and I thought well, I can’t argue because that’s just making more noise. So, I went in, you know. They wanted me to go back. They said “Well, you won’t get a purple heart unless you go back.” And I said “Who gives a shit?” You know? Let me—just put some salve on it. If it’s not better in the morning, I’ll go back. And that’s what he did: dressed it out there and, the medic did, and that— the next day, it didn’t look so bad. And I never went back in, they just kept checking it every day. You know? Wasn’t going to do it. (00:59:32) Interviewer: How would you characterize the morale of your unit while you were in Vietnam? Veteran: Well, I don’t know about…There was some newcomers that came in that seemed to me that they were living in a kind of fantasy world. “Oh, don’t worry: it’s going to be over any week now. They are talking peace talks. It’s going to be over. I don’t need to worry about anything.” And then you know, we had one in our platoon for a while. I traded him off to somebody else because he sat down and said “I can’t climb this hill any further.” And I went up—I broke my cardinal rule, because I went back down there after I unloaded my pack. And went back down there and got him up and took his pack and I pushed him up to the top of the hill and I told him off, all the way up there, you know? And he later went down the wrong trail and got blown up. I don’t know whether he died from it. I don’t know. He certainly didn’t last very long in Vietnam. But I could tell he was in a fantasy world. And you know, he didn’t take it seriously. And I traded him off: I said “Get him away from me because otherwise I’ll kill him.” You know, I was serious. You go a little nuts out there, you know? He was a danger to us. (01:00:52) Interviewer: Yeah. So, morale was sort of—people just didn’t engage reality. I mean, did you have— �Veteran: Not morale. The people that was in my platoon was pretty good. But then, we avoided everything that we could. And I didn’t want me to die and I didn’t want any of them to die. And I realized if you take control here, now they depend on you. And if they get hurt, it’s because of you. And that—I took that very seriously. I worked 24/7 for the whole time I was there to make sure that nothing happened. Interviewer: Okay, so we had been talking. I had asked a question sort of about morale, and you were talking about your own unit’s morale. Your platoon’s morale was pretty good— Veteran: My troop was—we were pretty happy together. I used to get care packages from home and my brother would slip in some whiskey and stuff and we’d be sitting around at night and I’d share that with them. We’d all have a toast that we were still alive. I just wanted to say that it sounds like I’m bragging here, all this stuff, but I don’t really understand how a kid can grow up being pretty much a sissy, can suddenly turn in to this other person that I didn’t recognize. I didn’t know this person. This person was stubborn, this person was all “make damn sure that we’re going to do this, we’re going to…” You know, I would just become this other serious 24/7…By golly, if we’d—if it’s up to me, we are all going to live. (01:02:33) Interviewer: Now, did you never have a lieutenant in your platoon? Veteran: No. Interviewer: So, you just end up—you had the whole—you had the sergeant, now did he go away eventually and get replaced by another sergeant? Or…? Veteran: Replaced by another sergeant. Who I threatened to kill because he said “We are not going up and down any more mountains. We are going down this path.” And I turned around, took my gun out of safety and I said “Well first of all, you’re going to shut the fuck up or I am �going to kill you right now.” And I didn’t say it loud. I just said it in this voice, and I meant it. And something on my face—I know that face. That face is my father’s face that will make your bowels liquid. And I used it later when I became a teacher. Scared the principal. He came in one day to view my class and somebody decided to act up and I gave them the face. And when I gave the face, the kid scrunched down in his chair and the principal got up and left and I thought that’s funny. Why would he leave? He was only here five minutes, how can he do my class? And I went down there and the other principal said “Oh, he turned it over to me because you scared him.” I am like, “What?” And I—my son told me “I know that face! I have seen that face on you. You scare people with that face.” And it was my father’s face. I knew that face but I couldn’t ever duplicate it in the mirror or anything. I was not being brave. I didn’t see myself as a hero. I am not a hero. I am a practical thinking person that wants to stay alive, and I will do whatever is necessary, to stay alive. You know? So, it sounds like I am bragging but I just—still to this day, want to understand where that person came from. Where did that person come from, that all of this stuff happened to you, the right and left of you, and only the—the only scratch you got was a burn on the back from shrapnel? You know, people were dying right and left. And there’s times out there, I thought I had gone crazy. And 30-some years later, when they threatened to get rid of our cost of our insurance rate up real high, everybody talked me into going to the VA and seeing if I couldn’t get their, you know. And so, they questioned me about my hearing and then they started really questioning me about firebase Ripcord and what happened to your hearing and everything else out there on that firebase. And I had a flashback and a meltdown. How can you have a meltdown 30-some years later? Almost like it was yesterday. And I couldn’t make it stop. It came in waves and I couldn’t make it stop. And they kept saying, “Oh, you have posttraumatic stress.” And I am like, “No, I don’t have anything. I am okay, I just can’t make this �stop.” And they kept passing me from person to person. They kept saying that. They finally sent me to a psychiatrist. And she said—I said “I looked at the DSM. I am not alcoholic, I am not a drug user, I am not—I don’t have fits of violence, I don’t do…” You know? And she got it out and said “This is what you looked at?” And I said “Yes.” And she said “Turn the page.” I turned the page and I fit all of the sub-category. I thought oh shit: I’ve got post-traumatic stress. And I am still having meltdowns from it. How do I stop this? You know. And she said “You need to talk about it. You need to talk about it to anybody that will stand still and hear the story.” And I can do that now a lot better because at first, it would make me cry. I would cry all the time while I tried to talk about it. I’d get real emotional over it, you know. And I thought this—I don’t know whether this is any good. I asked her “Does this go away?” And she “Well, it’s kind of ingrained in your mind after all of this time. I don’t think that we can get rid of it but we can teach you coping mechanisms.” And so, I learned coping mechanisms to cope with it, you know? Coming here, I didn’t know whether I could do it. I said “I am going.” I said “It’s probably going to scare the shit out of me.” I was sick for the first couple hours of the drive up from San Diego. Then, when I got to about halfway, I started feeling better and got here and… (01:06:59) Interviewer: Is this the first meeting you have come to? Veteran: I went to the one in Fort Worth when I was living in Texas. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But to travel anywhere, I always—or to go outside of my comfort zone. But I did get stuck once in my apartment with agoraphobia. And I knew that I had to keep pushing the envelope. So, what I used to go by is that—is something I read someplace that said “What would you do if you weren’t afraid?” And then I would go out and do it. You know? But it helped. It kept me from getting—coming unglued. You know, I kept going places by myself and pushing �the envelope as far as I could push it. I didn’t know whether I would make it here. I thought this is going to be very embarrassing if I get about halfway and turn back. You know? And I was sick. I thought I am sick; I don’t think I can go. And I was like, you know, grow up. You drove here, you know. Just go. And I did and I thought, you know, I am just going to do it. I am going to do it. I am afraid. I am afraid. I am frightened. I am going to do it. And when I got here, I was just fine. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:08:14) Veteran: I was worn out, tired. Slept good that night. You know? Interviewer: Well, it’s a good group. Veteran: Huh? Interviewer: It’s a good group here. Veteran: It is a good group. These are men that I served with. Although, I tried to block out most of it so I don’t remember the names and faces like I should. You know, it’s like I—when I came back, I decided that I was going to just pack it up and put it in a corner in my brain in a closet and pretend it didn’t happen. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And that’s what I did. I had nightmares and I would wake up in the middle of the night in a panic and want to run. And no place to run. I would get up and read until morning, you know. And everybody thought that was odd. I was very dependent on the word fuck. I loved the word fuck. I used it all the time. Scandalized my family. You know? They didn’t know who I was but they—and I think I scared them a bit. You know, because they sent away this little wimpy kid and he come back and…It didn’t seem to me—I didn’t seem to be very aggressive. You know? How did that happen? When did that happen? And in a way, I am not used to saying �“Thank you for your service” and pat me on the back and say “You were a hero.” No. No, don’t say that. You want to see heroes? Look at those chopper pilots that came in there and knew they would come in there under fire to come and get us. That’s a hero. You know? I did what I did to survive. I did what I did to make sure nobody around me got killed because of me, doing something stupid. So, that’s not hero material. That’s just practicality. That’s just someone doing what they have to do to survive. (01:10:10) Interviewer: Which is, ultimately, what winds up leading you to do things that people label heroic in a lot of cases. You weren’t doing it for that reason, you were just doing it. Veteran: You are scared to death and you still do it. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, you mentioned that when you got back, and you got out of the Army, you were a different person. So, what did you then do? You got out of the Army. Was that when you went to school then? Or…? Veteran: Well, I went back to school. I got my degree. I got a regular degree because everybody at that time was saying if you got a teacher’s degree, it wasn’t really a degree. So, I thought well, because I have such stubbornness and pride in myself, that I am getting a regular degree and fill it in with my electives with teaching credits and everything. And then I had to leave that because both my wife and I got sick and we had the baby and so, I had to go work for my brother, doing aluminum siding. And then I got a job on the railroad. And I worked on the railroad for 5 or 6 years and then Reaganomics killed that. And I come back to Texas and fought through depression and you know, I got myself together and went to see a counselor who counseled me that I should go back to my original plan, which was to become a teacher. So, I got the last 12 credits and got me a job over in Fort Hood. Now, that may seem crazy, to go to an Army camp when I didn’t want to have anything to do with the Army. But they were paying the most amount �of money. Nobody wanted to teach over there. And it was great. I loved it. But I did avoid going out on, if I could, I’ll avoid it, if they had some sort of thing going on out at Fort Hood. I’d ask somebody else to take my place and go. You know, and so I didn’t go. But I got the best job I could and suffered a divorce right there at the beginning. And stayed because I wanted to make sure my son—this was my kid, I raised him. I diapered him, I bathed him, I fed him. And I did everything for him because my ex-wife was a little depressed at that time and she didn’t really want a child, you know. And so, I kind of—he was my baby. I put him in a snuggly. You had to buy a snuggly through a Woolworth catalog at that time. Covered the baby completely. You couldn’t see it unless you were taller than me, to see there’s a baby in there. You know, I had—I stooped over to get something at a store and some lady saw I had a baby in there and screamed at me and run off to tell—call the police because I was abusing that baby. And I am like “No, it’s like being back in the womb: he loves it.” You know? He’s all nice and warm in there and he can hear my heart beating and I run a higher temperature. And so, he was like—it’s like just a blanket. So, I stayed to raise him, make sure he didn’t become a dirtbag. Make sure he went to college. Became a teacher and started out teaching math but I was a little too good at that because all of my students passed the exit exam and that was not so good because there was only—everybody else only had 60 percent. And I guess they were afraid that this would cause a stampede for parents wanting their kids in my class or something, I don’t know. They asked me to move over to social studies and gave me 4 preps for, you know, 4 different classes to teach for my efforts. And I went down there and said “Do you have—you don’t have a psychology class, could I teach a class that’s psychology?” And they said “That’s 5 preps! Are you nuts?” And I said “Yes. Give me it.” And so, they gave it to me. Within a couple years, that’s all I was teaching: psychology, sociology. And then finally, just psychology. You know? And it was �not—here’s something funny: I decided that my class would be a give and take. We are not going to discuss—you’re not going to learn dates and all that. You can talk to me about Freud. What do you think about dreams? You think they mean anything? You got to have an opinion in here or get up. You’re going to have an opinion. And sometimes it felt like I was on the edge of chaos, conducting this and any minute now, it was going to be going to a riot. And the best compliment I ever got is a teacher came down and knocked on my door after lunch and said “What the hell goes on in here?” And I had been teaching—this was back when they were not teaching sex education and I was teaching sex education in the one chapter because we had already had two students turn up with HIV. And I decided nobody needs to die for lack of information. So, I was teaching a very outward everything about sex. No matter how red my face was, I was going to teach that. And I figured that she heard certain something and I probably, this is when I got fired for this. And I said “What do you mean? What’s—what happened?” And she said “I was just down in the lunch hall and a group of your students are arguing over Freud down there.” And I thought, well, is this a bad thing? “Well, they never argued in my class over anything down there.” I am like “Well, I just wake them up and send them out there into the world.” You know? I would do things to provoke them, to get them into arguments over things. To make them see that psychology is in your life every day. So, I enjoyed it. It was a little radical but here’s the thing, I read this book when I was about 18 or 19, called To Serve Them All Our Days by Rodney…Doctorfield? Interviewer: Delderfield. Veteran: Delderfield? Interviewer: Yeah. �Veteran: I stole all his ideas. And it wasn’t until sometime later I read the book again and I thought oh my god, I thought I had all these ideas myself. And I just stole them from this guy that come back from war and became a teacher. And I thought well, that serves me right. You know? Thinking that I was really something. You know, to do all this. But it was great fun. I enjoyed it. So, it was—that’ s part of what I did. I went back to school and go that degree and got a job teaching and I stayed with it for over 20 years. And then I just—we got a whole new bunch of officers in. The superintendent and the assistant superintendent and they—at that time I was counseling students and they felt that we weren’t doing enough. And they loaded us down with a lot of secretarial jobs. And I said “Have you read the state manual? It says I am supposed to counsel 55% of the time. Do you know I have 7 students who are of suicidal ideation. I had to get their parents in here and get them off to the funny farm so that they wouldn’t kill themselves. I got 4 more I check on every day, at different times during the day, to see when they cross over. I’ve got all the teachers alerted to send me anybody that is acting funny. That they might—you know, were depressed and now they’re suddenly happy. Because that means they have figured out a way to kill themselves.” And I thought, you know, I’m—nobody is perfect and I just—I don’t think I can bear it if one of my students kill themselves and I didn’t catch it. So, I just said “You know what, if that’s the way you’re going to be, I am just going to retire. I can sit at home for more than half my salary. And I don’t have to worry so.” You know? It’s a lot of worry. You don’t know how vulnerable these kids are. You don’t know. Until you counsel them and find out so many of them are fragile. Especially with your parents over in Iraq or in some distant land where they could die at any time. And they don’t know what will happen to them. So…Oh well, that’s, you know, that was—I loved the career and I would have stayed but I just couldn’t deal with not taking the time to talk to every student 3 or 4 times during the year. I had 350 students. I �had to contact them all at least 3 times during the year to make sure. Not only for college and scholarships and socioeconomic things and see how they were doing, socializing them. And you know, there’s other stuff too. (01:19:14) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So…My dad told me when I was about 21 that I was a two-spirit person. I didn’t understand it. He said “Don’t be afraid of it and don’t be ashamed of it. You’re a two-spirit person. You always nurture, wherever you go.” I thought that’s an odd thing for my father to say and I don’t know what it means and I didn’t want to—I didn’t want to ask because it was one of those Indian things, you know, that he was fond of saying at—from time to time, you know, that was just kind of creepy. You know. So, maybe I am a two-spirit person; I don’t know. I’ve mentored all my life, in every job that I ever had, I was a teacher. So, it just came natural to me. They always send them to me to teach. (01:20:05) Interviewer: Now, how much of that, do you think, goes back to what sort of happened to you in the Army? Veteran: Well, the Army changed my life radically. I think it—I really do, I think it changed my life radically. I would have never been the person I am today. You know? People say “Oh, I wish that didn’t happen to me.” Well, yeah on the one hand, it was terrible. I lived through it. And I changed. I no longer was willing to be stepped on and stomped on and pushed to the side. Now, I fought back. You know? Let’s go do city. You know, you want to criticize me? Alright. I had an assistant principal who hated my guts. She was always trying to get me fired. I kept good records. When they’d take me down to the office to see the principal about some complaint or other, and I’d get out my…And I didn’t say she was a liar, I didn’t say—you know. I said “Well, I am sorry that you have been misinformed. Here’s what really happened.” After a while, the �principal got tired of that. I guess he said “No more.” You know? “Stop this, whatever it is you’re—I don’t know why you don’t like him. But leave him alone.” And so that was the end of that, you know. It was just…I tried to teach everybody around me that when parents come in distraught, do not escalate. De-escalate. And same in the classroom. You’re a teacher; you can make it worse or you can make it better. Don’t give them an ultimatum. Say “Here’s the choices. You choose. What do you want to do?” You know? Calm down. Get back in the swing of things. You want to go down to the office? You want time out? You know. What do you want to do? But I won’t put up with anything. You know, go around any corner, I got two degrees in psychology, I’ll be waiting there for you. You know? I will outsmart you in every way. Don’t try me. I’m a Vietnam vet, you know. I’m mean. We can have it sweet as pie or we can have it mean. Your choice. You know? And I never had trouble in my classes like anyone else had. I don’t, you know, I just—I thought, give them a choice. Let them choose for themselves. They want to go down to the office? That’s fine. I’m not angry over it. Sometimes you need a time out. You know, sometimes life just overloads you. And you bring that to my classroom and maybe you need a time out. Tell me if you don’t want to be called on today. You need some time to just contemplate. Okay, I won’t call on you. Now, let’s not make it a habit but if you have an overwhelming day…just…And if you want to talk, I am here. I am always here. And my classroom is like Vegas: what happens here, stays here. And anybody who spreads any rumors, you’re out of here. You go around and share what you hear here, you know. And you have to be sensitive to where you’re going because sometimes you have to stop them and say, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. I think I know where you’re going. Think a minute. Is that something you want to share? If it’s not, we need to stop here.” And you know why? I’ll tell you a real happening. The guy across the hall taught biology. And he was having a really good time that �day and he was telling them about—he was talking about reproduction. He was telling them all the chemicals in sperm. And one girl raised her hand and she said “Mr. K—” Well, I shouldn’t say his name. Said “That’s all sugars, isn’t it?” And he’s just like, “Yeah, you get it! It’s all it really is. It’s all sugars.” And then he didn’t see where it was going and she raised her—she said “How come it tastes so salty?” He went outside, closed the door and fell down laughing. He didn’t know what to do. I said, “You’ve got to think down the road where this might lead. And I’m sure that girl didn’t want to share that and I’m sure that it was all over school that she shared that. You’ve got to stop them before they incriminate themselves. You know? Think a minute. Is that something you want to share? Because I think I know where you are going.” And they would say, “Uhhh…No.” “Then good. Move on. Let’s go on.” You know? (01:24:57) Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that one would have blindsided me but… Veteran: Well, it blindsided him. I felt sorry for him. I thought I don’t know whether you could have prevented that one. I really don’t. But I just know that you’ve got to watch out when you’re working with these kids. They say things. And a lot of them go home and kill themselves because they think they can’t face life now, because they shared too much. They overshared. You know? I closed down program after program as were—our altered programs. They come in every year with training for a week. New stuff that was going to save education. And I would sit there and I see globally. Not specifically, but globally. And I would see the flaw and I would ask—I would try to ask a question, as innocently as possible so that it didn’t look like I was causing trouble. And it would pull the tapestry apart. And they would fall apart, you know. And so, they would have to modify it and change whatever they wanted us to do that year. Well, one year they wanted us to a—have all the kids journal. Oh, it’ll be great. They’ll journal. And I said, “Oh, I think you should think about this.” By that time, all the principals from the different �schools and the superintendent and assistant superintendent was always in the back of our training session. You know, and every time I thought well, that’s going to get you fired. It didn’t. and I said, “This journaling, it could get out of hand because they may overshare and then they will go home and kill themselves.” “Oh, no. I don’t know why you think things like that.” So, we went in small groups and they tagged along to my small group and sat in the back. And the teacher—I told a joke to the other teacher when we were supposed to share something. And she came over there and said, “Well, how about sharing that with the group?” And I said, “I don’t want to.” And she picked up the paper and said “Well, what is it that’s funny?” You know. And I took it back and put it down. And she said, “Well, I mean you know, you could share this with everybody.” And I took it back. And that—and I said, “See, this is exactly what I’m talking about: you have authority and you’re using your authority to get me to share what I don’t want to share. And then one of these kids are going to share something and they’re going to go home and kill themselves because they overshared. All because of this, because you’re not trained to have them journal.” And they all got up and left. And I thought, well now you’ve done it. You’re fired for sure this time because they are going to just throw you out of here. Any minute now. Besides all that, because I am teaching sex ed too. And all that ten years or twelve years that I did it, nobody said anything and I don’t know why. Next day, we were told to go to our rooms and just work in our rooms because they cancelled that. We are not going to do journaling. (01:27:45) Interviewer: Alright. Well, the story has taken us in a lot of pretty interesting directions, so, I think we’ve gotten a pretty good idea. But, you know, it all connects which is— Veteran: Well, I am surprised I got through this without crying. That usually happens somewhere along the line. Or being overwhelmed. I’ve been trying to follow the psychiatrist that told me to get ahold of anyone that wants to hear and tell them all about it. And sometimes it does cause �tears and, you know, sometimes it shakes me up a little bit. It was an experience. I am not saying it was a great experience but it was an experience that changed my life. It made me a different person. I don’t know whether that is good or bad. You know, I certainly became adamant and stubborn. When my son wanted to quit college, I said “Oh, no. Over my dead body. You’re moving back in with me and you’ve got a place to live and a place to shower and a place to do your clothes and food that’s in the refrigerator and that’s all I can do for you but you’re going back to college. You’re going to finish.” And he did. And I said—and then he said one time, and he said to me “I am not sure college is great. I don’t know whether I can afford for my two boys.” And I said “Oh, no. I want a promise right now that they’re going to college. I didn’t raise us up out of the gutter for you—from trailer park trash to become this and then let them slip back down.” Usually, the third generation it happens to. And I said—and he said “Well, I don’t see it makes any difference.” I said “How much were you making before you went to college?” “Making $32,000.” “What are you making now? $110? $120? It’s not worth it? You make three times what I was making as a teacher. You know, when I started out. And it wasn’t worth it? Damn right, it’s worth it. And I don’t care what anybody says: education is the key to becoming something better in this life.” And I went after it: I came back from Vietnam and I went to college and I had my family pulling and her family pulling and everybody pulling the other direction. And why are you doing this? And you’re not smart enough to do this, you barely made it out of grade school and you graduated from high school with a D- average. You know? Well, there was a reason for that. I didn’t know that at the time but there was a reason for that, you know. But I wasn’t going to give up. I wanted to know everything. I thought if I went to college, I would know everything. Turns out, I don’t even hardly know anything but I know how to look it up. I know how to find out that information. I know how to research it. You know? That’s �what education does for you. And I know how to find out information so you can form your own opinion. And you don’t sit around being ignorant. You know? I had only a size ten and a half shoe when I tried to stamp out as much ignorance as I could. (01:30:56) Interviewer: Alright. Now, in the meantime, you’ve filled— Veteran: Huh? Interviewer: And in the meantime, you’ve filled in another piece of both the story of firebase Ripcord and told a very good story about what it was like to go through the U.S. military and what it meant. So, I’d like to just close this out by thanking you for taking the time to share the story today. Veteran: I still don’t know—I still don’t understand all that happened to me there. I still don’t understand all of it: what changed and when it changed and how it changed. Or, how I came to this point. But like Cher, I think that all the things that happen to you make you who you are, and if you like who you are at this point, and I do, then everything was the right thing to happen. So, I’ll leave you with that. (01:31:44) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WhiteisR2157V Title A name given to the resource Whiteis, Rauland (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-03 Description An account of the resource Rauland Whiteis was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1946 and graduated high school in 1966. Whiteis was drafted into the Army in 1969 and attended Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, as well as Advanced Individual Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. He was then deployed to Vietnam with the B Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division as an infantryman. He participated in the combat at Firebase Ripcord and was only injured once in the back while in Vietnam. After being discharged from the Army in 1971, Rauland attended Southwest Texas State University, where he completed two degrees in psychology. He then accepted a position teaching at Fort Hood, where he taught high school classes for over 20 years before retiring. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whiteis, Rauland Lee Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7290dbe22a6f358f78ea2056d5046d4b.mp4 96c0a28f9bfa2e114d4cbbe9dbf04d8b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5e4b1f70622f423842800fd8275bd9d.pdf 76f6dac90cf3960c31e475d3d9609e4d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Chet Trybus Interview Length: (46.19) Interviewed by Michael McGregor Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: Today we’re interviewing Chet Trybus of Grand Rapids, Michigan. The interviewer is Michael McGregor with the Grand Valley State University's Veteran Oral History Project. To begin Chet, when and where were you born? I was born March 16th, 1945. During World War II actually, in Highland Park, Michigan just outside Detroit. Interviewer: Okay and what did your parents do? Well my dad was a TV service repair manager For the Good Housekeeping shops in Detroit. Sort of like the equivalent to like the ABC Warehouses of today but he did the radios and TV repairs. Interviewer: Okay and did your mother work outside of the home? Nope, she never worked outside of the house. She raised five boys and lived in Detroit my whole life. I was born and raised within eyesight of the old Tiger Stadium, which is now a vacant piece of property. Interviewer: Yeah, okay where did you go to school then in Detroit? Detroit, I went to grade school at a place called St. Luke's, grade school in West Side Detroit. And then to Detroit Catholic Central. Graduated right from there in 1963. (1.10) Interviewer: Was that when Detroit Catholic Center was in Detroit? Actually, it was, yeah. Now it's in Wixom, Michigan. Interviewer: Yeah. �Yeah. Interviewer: Okay, what do you recall about growing up in Highland Park. Well actually it was West Side Detroit where I grew up. Well, I, since the age of eight I had a newspaper route. Routes plural, from The Shopping Daily News, to Detroit news, Detroit Free Press and I drove a truck for the Free Press. Basically, it was a real nice neighborhood type of atmosphere. A lot of kids play together, very different than from today, you could walk to school. You could not worry about being on the outside at night and so forth. It was a good time, I had a good time going up there. Interviewer: Okay and then after high school what did you do? (1.53) Well after high school I went to Henry Ford Community College and that was a full-time, and I also drove a truck at night for The Detroit Free Press and delivered all over metropolitan area newspapers to stations at night. I actually, when I was at Henry Ford Community College there, I had a full credit load, which was more than 12 hours in 1964. In 1965 I dropped to part-time because I had more hours at the Free Press driving the truck and then I was reclassified because that was during that time when the military would- you'd be reclassified if- you could stay in college if you had 12 hours or more and then after graduation going active duty. Well I fell below twelve hours and so I was reclassified immediately and- and so I got a notice from the draft board and I says, “oh no I'm below 12 hours what am I gonna do?” So, I went to the draft board downtown Detroit and I talked to the guy in charge of it and I says, you know trying to validate is this correct and so forth. He says, “well yeah.” And I says, “well I really can't serve on active duty,” and he said, “why not?” I says, “I got a bad case of acne.” And this guy did a double take, he kind of chuckled and he said, “no I'm sorry, you’re- you can serve in the �military.” And so, what happened was, there was four buddies of mine down the street. I lived on Ohio Street on the west side Detroit that we all got our notice to report for our armed forces physical exam, examination on July 16th, 1965 at a place called Fort Wayne. Which was an old fort, during I guess colonial times, but it was at the foot of Livernois and Fort Street in Detroit. So, we went down there for our physicals and I'll never forget during that time, what sticks in my mind, you know how things stick in your mind; I was going through with a hernia check. There was a line of about 300 of us being examined for hernias, there was a glass plate in front of us and then the doctor would examine us. The guy in front of me, when the doctor said “cough,” he would not cough, and he asked him two more times to cough and he didn't. He said look, “if you don't cough the next time to examine you for a hernia,” he says, “you're going to the Brig.” So, he coughed, and the things moved on. So, I was kind of concerned about, because everybody that I knew of went to Vietnam immediately. And I was kind of like in that stage in my life where I wanted a complete college, but how do I do that? So, I talked to someone else and he said, “you know why don’t you try the Naval Reserve?” So, there was a Naval Reserve station on Jefferson Avenue in Detroit. So, the week following my army physical I went down there and signed up for the Naval Reserve. And it was back in- to August of 65 and of course, when the Naval Reserve you get yourself the proverbial Blue Jackets manual. The how-to, everything to know about the military, how to dress, and so forth, and ships that you might be on, and so forth. So, I got that and that was kind of fun and so what happened there was, afterwards I was still in college because I was deferred through college now, they told me for the Naval Reserve you could, even though it was in 1965 my targeted graduation day was December of 68. So, I could say in The Naval Reserve with the understanding that you would spend two weeks of active duty for training every year prior to going on active duty. So, my first boot camp was actually in �December of the- of 1965. So in between my college break I went to Great Lakes, Illinois for my boot- boot camp and it was quite interesting, we're like a dorm style boot camp. Probably I think it was, I don't know probably close to maybe 100 guys here. And this happens to be me… wait where am I located here? (Holding up photo) Right here, right close to the chief petty officer there. And I was the storekeeper there, so I had some extra duties, but extra privileges because of that. And after that I went back to school of course at Western Michigan University where I got my undergraduate degree in 68. And then the next summer, which was the summer of 66, I did my first 2-week active duty for training at Great Lakes, Illinois and we were required to be on a ship for a while. So right on Lake Michigan they had a ship called The Porridge, it was a patrol craft escort ship. And so, all of us recruits went out there to training to get on the ship and of course they got me on the, they sat me in the tort of a- a 2... Interviewer: 40 millimeter? (6.35) Well it could have been. These the- the shells were about this round (showing hand motion). They had- they had a cartridge of them, about 16 of them, and so the- the guy who was the gunners mate said, “okay you're gonna aim for this 55-gallon barrel out there in Lake Michigan.” So, I was the pointer, the pointer and a trainer and I was pointing the gun and my foot was on the trigger basically to start shooting the rounds and I was getting close to the barrel in terms of trying to hit it direct, and you know and make a score. But it I just couldn't get there, so I stopped shooting and all of a sudden, the gunner's mate yelled, “clear the deck.” And I said, “what is going on?” He says, “wasn't that a jam and you're in your gun?” I says, “no I just wanted to point a little bit better.” And he says, “you could have got us all killed.” So, they never kept me on the- �the pointer round for the turret anymore. So, I just went back, for the day, we were just out there for the day. And do that little round there it was kind of interesting. The... (7.37) Interviewer: If I can interject then you- you joined the Navy Reserve. Yes. Interviewer: You- you went to the reserve center; they gave you the Blue Jackets Manual. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: And equipment … between then and one you had to go to Great Lakes the first time, did you have to go to meetings once a month? Oh, absolutely. Yeah absolutely. Interviewer: What did those consist of? Well they basically take you through the- the regiment of the military. Understand the rules of the Navy and so forth and the processes procedures if you will. The formal things on saluting and standing at ease and all that stuff. And essentially understanding the process of the Navy and how it kind of works from the enlisted guy on up so, you'd understand that. There’d be various fastest of the training month-to-month that you'd go to, so throughout the entire year I'd be going to 12 meetings. Plus, I would be going to two weeks of active duty for training and usually the summertime. (8.33) Interviewer: Now in, in- in your Reserve Component where there are other people had already served and are staying in the Navy or was it just all individuals like yourself? Who… �Yeah it was fellows try to get out of the active duty to go to Vietnam per se. But we knew we had to serve but we’re by and large everybody I was with was in college of some degree yeah. Interviewer: Okay so when you were at Western you were still going to the meetings and that and did you have to go back to the Detroit area? Nope, we had a… fortunately we had a reserve location in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay so you did that there. And one of my commanding officers there was actually, taught at Western Michigan University. Interviewer: Okay. So, we did that. It was quite easy for me to do it because the meetings I think lasted about two or three hours each night. Interviewer: Okay so you- you went there for basically two years then? (9.29) I was there, let’s see, I started Western Michigan in 65 and then 68. Oh, one more thing I want to mention to you. During this time of course, I mentioned the Free Press. Kind of the highlight of my working there was in 1967 the riots in Detroit. My particular route that evening of the riots which was a Saturday night before Sunday morning started was 12 Street where the riots started. And during the next three or four days, we'd go out on caravans in these yellow trucks delivering newspapers at night. And to our newspaper stations and the trucks were being fired upon by snipers. One guy got on the back of my truck and at 45 miles an hour he fell off because I- he was gonna try and hijack my truck when I was driving it. So, that was in 67. So, between the Naval Reserve working and so forth, quite interesting. Then in 68, July of 68 I married my high school sweetheart I met at Western Michigan and that was getting near the time of graduation at Western. Which was then what would have been active duty shortly thereafter in April of 69. �And my wife became pregnant shortly thereafter and we- I graduated in 68. December of 68 and then in February of 68 just before active duty we lost our baby she was born, lived 27 hours. And we had a barrier her in an unmarked grave in Kalamazoo which was quite a blow for the entire family, including myself. So, about that time I got notice from the Navy that you, I had a choice of serving two years of active duty in Vietnam or through your stateside. Well given the fact we went through this major trauma in our lives, I elected to do three years of active duty. Starting in April of 69 and they gave me a choice of Omaha, someplace in North Carolina, or Great Lakes, Illinois and I says, “Great Lakes.” So, that was north of Chicago. And I says, “well you know it's not too far from the family from Detroit basically, versus Omaha. So, let's go there.” So, lo and behold we packed up our bags from Western Michigan University and lived in married housing and took my car down on the interstate and of course it overheated, and we had to trying to limp our way to Great Lakes, Illinois. In advance of that we were given some notifications of where do you stay? Because we're husband and wife together. So, we had to rent a third-floor apartment in Waukegan, Illinois not too far from Great Lakes. And then till my application cleared to get base housing. We got the base housing three months later it was pre-World War II officer housing. And it was a, something you would not live in today because it has the asbestos sighting. It had compliments of mice and roaches and dirty walls and… but it was our place. We live across the street from some barracks and in the summertime, we'd hear revelry going on across the street for the recruits, but this was actually married housing. So, we live there for the entire time and interestingly enough the high cost of that to me, it was fifty-four dollars and thirty-five cents a month which included all utilities; heat, light, and all that good stuff. And we had a good time there. In fact, I can remember one of our parties of the seven other families that lived in our housing unit. We had a summertime party and we went through 47 ears of corn, had �of course roast the corn, and 18 bottles of wine. So, the next morning was kind of a highlight of our day, is waking up to corn. (13.06) Interviewer: Now before you want an act of duty, while you're still doing the reserves how much of the time of your meetings were spent on physical training and physical fitness? Actually, virtually nothing. We did do, I remember in boot camp we had to go through swimming exercise and that sort of thing but we, unlike the military, the army and so forth, or Marines, we never had, you know to the degree of physical stuff that you guys went through. I know, we never had that. Interviewer: Okay. So, we're all sizes of people that were in the Navy at that time. From the slim to the big. Interviewer: And at the time that you got your draft notice what, which prompted you to join The Naval Reserve. How aware were you of Vietnam? Oh very. Interviewer: Because it was 1965, our involvement was just escalating at that point. (13.59) We had friends, neighbors that had died there prior to me going on active duty or being drafted. So, I had an awareness of that, you know it was something that was looking ugly out there, and I was trying to hopefully out live it by going through college, but it never happened that way because it didn’t end until the seventies so. Interviewer: So now you, you're at Great Lakes, so you’re out of college, you’re what an E3? �I was an E4. I had an E4 over four years, so I had some stripes on my arms that showed every, you know every four years you get a stripe and so forth, so I was an E4 over four. And I went directly to my first assignment and only assignment in the Navy was at the Commandant ninth Naval District building at Great Lakes the building one they call it. Where they- they have all the graduation ceremonies in front of it and I was assigned to a job called a fiscal liaison accountant. Basically, in our group, active duty for training that was the assign two-week training duty for officers enlisted in which we'd process about 20,000 orders per year. And I was involved with literally just pricing out pay. Travel per diem for each one of those and then at the end of the year do an accounting of all, basically a six-million-dollar budget that I was kind of responsible for tracking. And we did that we had an office of about 35 people there. Had enlisted people, had an officer, commanding officer, and we had civilians that worked along with us. And of course, the old style we had ditto machines and all that good stuff to crank out the orders and so forth. Kind of an interesting highlight of that particular stay, we made a lot of good friends. Friends that were from Alaska, from the south, from the Midwest, we stay close to today. It was a very nice environment, collegial environment. I had one of my several commanding officers complimented me on my abilities to speak and write and so forth and do my job, but he said regarding, how’d he put it? Let's see he said something regarding my future and the Navy he said (reading,) “his potential as a storekeeper is excellent.” Which I was a storekeeper. “However, his military capabilities are lacking.” What he was- had a problem with, he had brush haircut. One of my several commanding officers and at that time there was a Chief of Naval Operations called Admiral Zumwalt and Admiral Zumwalt used to call what they call the Z Grams on what- how he felt about that- how people should work and- and participate in the Navy. And he said that basically, “enlisted people were allowed to have sideburns down to the bottom of their earlobes.” �Well, my commanding officer having a brush haircut, being a very-very military guy, he had a real problem with that. So, we would always give him a little bit of jive by, you know one day I said to my commanding officer I said, “you know what, basically you’re a radical sir.” And he says, “what do you mean?” I said, “you’ve got a brush haircut, we don't have a brush haircut.” So, I think that stuck with him, but I had a good time. I had good commanding officers there. We had- we got along well we could speak person-to-person without having the enlisted versus an officer thing. Even though I respected that position, we still had that opportunity to work with them. One of the funny things about that office I'll never forget; Bertha, one of the gals that work there. An elderly lady, she went to the bathroom one day and so she came back, and everybody was looking at her because when she walked by us, she had her dress tucked in her panties and she didn't know that until she sat down on her cold chair. And then everybody looked around. We had some good times there. It was a good, we'd get together at night and so forth, but I did also work during that time, in the Navy. At- at Citizen Lobank,I was in the credit department and an experience... I'd do that, I would be going to school... by the way I was working on my master's degree on active duty. Just one block from my house, Roosevelt University, had a program for public administration and so I wanted, I attended that to work on it. But the other nights I’d work at the credit department because I think- when I got out of the service my net, my gross pay was four thousand bucks a year. Yeah, so, I need it every penny I could get my hands around. We even bought a Volkswagen back then for sixteen hundred and fifty bucks and I needed every penny to pay for that thing. But one day in the credit department, I used to whistle like a bird and so I had seven crowns’ put in my mouth. I could do a real great sound for a songbird. So, I was in the credit department and I started whistling like a bird. My buddies knew I could whistle, and it sounded realistic and my credit manager had a big vented grate above on a �wall above him, and he thought there was a bird caught on this grate. So, what does he do? He calls maintenance and they unscrew this 50-year-old grate which falls to the floor. And he's standing there with a fish net trying to catch this bird and nothing comes out, so word got around. So, the next time I went to work the next day he said to me, “do you whistle like a bird by chance?” I says, “oh no sir.” He says, “but if you did,” he says, “never do this again.” [Laughter] (19.09) Interviewer: So, he knew. Now at Great Lakes you were- you were processing the... Orders. Interviewer: The orders for what? It was recruits that finished training there, or people who were getting out of the service, or what? No, people who had served on active duty or had the requirement of serving two-week active duty for training per year. Those were officers and enlisted people so I we- we would then create the destination, put them on a ship someplace, or a naval district someplace, and then I’d price them out from where they're coming from and to, and give them the pay for that, and the travel, and the per diem, the cost of that two-week training duty. And as I mentioned over 20,000 orders we processed per year, high turnaround of paper. Interviewer: What was the average workday like for you there? Well it- you'd get there at eight o'clock and you'd leave at five quite frankly. And then you'd have your staff watch duties. I had a couple of duties; I'd have to staff, I'd have to stand in or, it was an office, staff watch office at building one commodious office usually on the weekends like a Saturday over Sunday. One night, I'll never forget this, it was 2:30 on a Sunday morning and the base red phone rings next- on my desk. �Interviewer: What was the red phone? (20.29) That was that was the Admiral’s phone. If he called you immediately picked that up and he lived just behind our building, so I got a 2:30 in the morning got a call from the Admiral’s wife this is Admiral Renken, R-e-n-k-e-n his wife said, “there’s an intruder in our kitchen please get help.” Well my chief petty officer was on the couch, you know we had a couch, office had a couch and recliner and so forth and I says, “chief there’s an intruder in the Admiral’s quarters what do I do?” He started stuttering, he couldn't get himself together. So, he says, “talk to the Jag officer Judge Advocate,” our Attorney officer was in the next room sleeping which was the protocol. Woke him up he says, “pick up the black bass phone and call security.” Well I did that, as soon as I did that the colonel, the marine colonel who was next to the Admiral’s quarters was notified that there was an intruder. So, he automatically picked up his phone had called the Marine barracks kitty-corner to our building and- and it was like 2:30 in the morning so the Marines were just coming in off of a… a good soda pop evening. And those guys had just come in from rotation from Vietnam, and he says to these guys, “find this intruder and do not go to sleep until you find them.” Well that was 2:30 on a Sunday morning. They found this guy at 4:00 p.m. on a Monday afternoon on the ravine next to Lake Michigan. It turns out that there was a marine on the beach he was heavily drinking, and he was hungry around 2:30 in the morning and he looked up the ravine and saw this light and a- a house like. And so, he says, “I’m gonna go up there and get some food.” So, he walked up in his skivvies, was in the kitchen of the Admiral’s quarters, and Admiral’s wife came down and get him a glass of milk because he had a hard time sleeping that evening. She walks in, here's a guy in his skivvies who’s going through her refrigerator looking for food. She screamed, he bolted down the ravine and hid in the ravine for about a day �and a half. Well when the guys found them, they were upset because they were not allowed to go to sleep, they just come back from Vietnam, so they were really kind of gung-ho to do this stuff. They found the guy, worked him over a little bit, threw him in the brig, and because of his opportunity to be in the Admiral’s quarters, he had an opportunity to go back and do another round in Vietnam, because of that. Well that was my involvement with the Marines on the base. It was, we had a good relationship actually. Interviewer: How big was the Marine’s Contingent on the… (22.43) Well let's see there's probably 300 there, yeah. And I'll never forget one time during May of 1970 of all things, during, they called it ‘Mayday.’ And- and our base had a fencing around it and hippies were going to try and invade our property to quote, “show the anti-war thing.” Well I can tell you that the Marines protect us very well and that the hippies never really made it over the fence. Hippies were kind of an interesting group because I had run across them as well when I was at, I had a run the Admiral and his commanding officers and so forth to O'Hare Airport, and one day I was there and standing outside our car, waiting for the Admiral to come out to get in his car to go back to the base. One hippy came up to me and spit on the ground in front of me and started cursing me because of the Vietnam thing and anti-military talk and so forth. So, I saw that more than one time though from the hippies of that era. You know the 60s and early 70s so quite-quite fascinating. My wife had our first baby, our second baby at Great Lakes Naval Hospital, cost us five bucks. It was… and where we were in the base, we'd hear helicopters coming in from medevac, from Vietnam, guys come in for… It was a major hospital, the ninth naval district hospital. And this, so they'd fly and land on the roof of the house, we'd hear them every day, day and night, coming in from Vietnam you know injured people. One day I was �doing staff watch office call, and I got a casualty assistance call from Vietnam. A chief petty officer had died while entertaining a call girl from Vietnam and so I asked my jag officer the, Attorney, Judge Advocate General Officer what should I do? And writing up this report he says well we would just put down he died on, on active duty because then he will get benefits for his family. Because... Interviewer: He was on active duty. (24.40) Yeah. Well he was he died was smile on his face I'm sure. Let's see, what else do I have here? We had inspections the first time I was there, we had a stand in order, ranks in order. I had my dress whites on, my white jumper and so forth and my wife was not really up to speed on how to press and iron the uniforms. Even though I did that she said, “no I'll take care of that for you.” So, during the inspection the commanding officers looked at me and he said, “you've got stains on your collar, not good.” And then she did... the Navy is dressed the- the dress whites. Pants the- the creases are on the side of the pants, not like the front like very good business people would. And so, the crease is wrong and a scorch for my collar and so from that point on she said, “that's it. I'm not doing any more of your stuff, you got to take it to Mary's cleaners across the base at- in North Chicago.” So, from that point on all my inspections were very good for that from that point on, but I learned a lot during the service. Had good relationships with all the people. Understood the value of how we supported the troops over Vietnam through our active duty for training office, our segment of the business. It was quite gratifying for us quite frankly. (25.58) Interviewer: How often did you have to stand inspection? �Once a month, I would have to be usually a Saturday night over Sunday and that was a long shift, but it was in an office. I had a chief petty officer next to me and a lieutenant that would always serve along with me. So, we were just basically doing paperwork from some other contingent within that building because the building actually housed about 300 military and civilian people that actually were the headquarters for the ninth naval district. Basically, covering most of the United States quite frankly. And let's see, what else… Interviewer: Did your office function just on one shift? Or were people processing orders and that kind, on a night shift? No, we're basically a one shift operation. Rare occasion where we had the opportunity to process more paperwork, but it was very rare. You know because we had employees that had to punch in on their timecards, for these were non-military types, and then us we just show up for work on time. (27.03) Interviewer: Well in your office what was a ratio between service people and civiliancivilian employs? I would say out of 35 I think we had about 10 military, and the rest were civilians. It was- back then it was a lot of paper-pushing we did not have computers per se although that we had the first onset of the first internet through the military, but I never worked with that. I worked just basically things with ditto copies and correcting things like that and moving paper from this desk to that desk and then I would get them, and then process the pricing on that, and send it over to the building across the way from us. Which would then actually physically set up the airline tickets and so forth and get the people on their two-week active duty for training. �Interviewer: Would you disperse the cash? Or was that done in another office? We never handled any cash at all, no. It was just strictly a paperwork thing. Get the orders and get him down there and so forth. Interviewer: And that was basically your duties for the… My job. Interviewer: The years and… (28.07) Yeah, I would price it up and I would run a tally of what was being spent and then give that to the commanding officer so that he could provide it to the Admiral on an as-needed basis. One of things I've got to talk about too is the fact that I mentioned that I worked on my master's degree for Roosevelt University of Chicago. I graduated there in January of 72 and during the graduation, Secretary General of the United Nations U. Thant, U period-T-H-A-N-T, was theour guest speaker. And so, I was walking across the stage to get my diploma and I stood a little bit longer with U. Thant and some, afterwards my buddies in the audience said, “why did you take longer than the other people to get your degree?” I said, “well I asked him what the letter ‘u’ meant in his name.” All kidding aside, I had a little fun with that. Interviewer: So, you were able to get your master’s while you were on active duty? (29.03) I did, that was my… and as my mother said, “I never thought you could get a master's degree.” She didn't have that confidence, but I guess when you… you're married and so forth and you're getting into next phase of life. I wanted to go well beyond what I… you know I… Oh one thing, I try to get in the officer corps in the Navy back in 66, just a year after I was joining a reserve, but I found out I was colorblind. I could not tell the difference between red and green and of �course on a ship it’s, you see the buoy red, right, and returning or green. Or if I was on the aircraft carrier it could cause a real calamity if I didn't know the difference between red and green which I did not. So, unfortunately, I had to stay an enlisted guy and that's why I figured if I could not be an officer, which my wife wanted me to stay in the military for 20 years. Then I should do something else and I thought at one time I was going to be a city manager, that's why I took public administration. Only to find out I ended up at Xerox Corporation right after the service. So much for public administration. Interviewer: Now when you were in graduate school, did the Navy provide tuition assistance? How did it work? (30.10) They did they, it was interesting it was $64 a credit hour which I thought was outrageous back then, but they provided 75% of the- the funding for that. And I had to croft out the other 25 which meant I did work at Sears, like I mentioned at night in order to help with that, so I didn't have to leave with a loan at all. And back then there were really no student loans, back then. Interviewer: So, you were a pretty busy guy, your full-time shift at The Great Lakes, working at Sears at night, and I presume your classes were at night. I gotta tell you one thing about the classes, I was the only enlisted guy there. The rest were commanding officers and captains and lieutenants and so forth. Well during my class, I got to know the professor pretty well and what I could expect on the exams. Well one time we took an exam and I aced the exam; I got a hundred percent on it. Well because the rest of them are did so poorly he you set a curve and a bunch of the higher-ranking officers flunked the- the quiz. So, the very next class they looked at me with kind of like this sting in their eyes like how could this �little enlisted guy beat us out of our grade. You know, they'd gone to all these different schools, but I thought I was pretty proud of that, that I could smoke out the officers. Interviewer: How… going to school obviously, did you go in civilian clothes? (31.27) I had the choice, I could go in civilian but usually I walked I, I just came out of work at five o'clock and my classes started at six, so I just stayed in uniform. Interviewer: So, they knew you were a…? Oh yeah, they knew I was one of the kids. Interviewer: Yeah, and that gave you a good sense of satisfaction. It did, I said you know what, I may not be able to be a lifelong officer here, but I can sure beat them in the quizzes. Interviewer: Why did you wife want you to stay in the service? She loved it! She absolutely loved going to commissary and all the things provided for her and so forth. And- and she had no clue about the future you know per se, but she did like… everybody was congenial and- and was good, it was good toward us. And she felt really warm with the friendships we made and that this is really the kind of life she wanted… Interviewer: Okay. And I says, “I'm not gonna be full-time enlisted guy for my entire life.” But she said afterwards, “you should have joined the Naval Reserves.” In retrospect that might have been a good thing because I could have been- been getting some- some retirement benefits from that so… That's water over the dam though, turned out to be just fine afterwards. Interviewer: Okay so your tours winding down, so what ideas did you have? You said you wanted to be a city manager; did you pursue? �I did, I looked at that. There was a city manager from Glencoe, Illinois that was one of my instructors buddy, but he also was a good friend, and we were talking about getting into that kind of job but at that time city manager was making about eight thousand bucks a year, which was twice what I was making in the military and I figured well that’s not a whole lot of money. Until you got into your ten year as a city manager. So, my brother at the time worked at Xerox and he said, “why don’t you interview at Xerox?” So, while I’m on active duty one of my leaves I came to Detroit to interview for a job as a sales rep for Xerox. And eventually got into Xerox, I was told I could start a week after I got out of the military and moved to Lansing, Michigan. They had a spot for me starting the very next week after I got out of the military. So, I stayed with them for 24 years and retired from there. Interviewer: So, you left when you got out of the service that was the end of your service obligation or did you have to stay in the inactive duty for a while? (33.45) No, I hadn't fulfilled all that time from the 2 August 65 until the April 9th of 72. I had enough years. Seven years. Interviewer: Yeah you had you six years. Yeah it was good to stay, good memories about them, I’ll never forget; one time my wife was just about ready to deliver on December 27, 1970. We went to the commissary there was about 400 recruits that are in line and here she was walking down toward the commissary and the chief petty officer says, “gangway let this pregnant lady through.” And so, we had a great meal two days before the baby came. Yeah it was good, oh one other thing about the Navy; officers got a little bit better medical care than we did. In that I had a cavity in my front tooth so when I'm on �base and he says, “well your enlisted guy, so we’ll have to put a silver filling right here in the front tooth.” I said, “what do you give officers?” He says, “well we do porcelain.” So, I had to go off base and spend an extra 20- 30 bucks to get a porcelain filling put in my front tooth because enlisted guys did not get porcelain fillings. Interviewer: Oh really? I thought that was hilarious and now what other things come to mind, I can remember seeing all the graduation ceremonies in front of my office in the summertime, through my window of the recruits that are coming through. And then going on active duty from Great Lakes. It was quitequite nice quite formal. I enjoyed that part of it. Military I had no problem with actually. (35.17) Interviewer: Well now you’re at Great Lakes during the 68 on? Well technically, technically 69 through 72. Interviewer: 69-72 so Vietnam was kind of... I think we made the decision by then to kind of disengage. What was the- what was the feeling on the base about Vietnam and the...? Well we were participants in supporting that and we did not have any quote “disgruntled folks” that would show their faces. Back then that was I was a no- no you never did that even if you felt, I knew a couple guys I worked with that were kind of bent that way. Toward, you know, we shouldn't be in Vietnam, but they never voiced it in front of the commanding officers or anything else, but they never did show any kind of disdain for that at all, because we were full fullblooded military people. Interviewer: Was, was there anything like hey, if you screw up, I’m going to send you to Vietnam kind of mindset there among some of the senior petty officers? (36.21) �No not really, well let's see. In my group because we had to claim a contract for an extra year you stay there- there was never that discussion, because they knew what my contract was. Basically my- my from and to dates on my order to serve there. So, there was no talk about if you don't do this I mean. Interview: Really? Did they, did- I know in the army state side bases would get a levy if they didn’t have, you know they needed so many people in Vietnam with so many MOS’s. Sure. Interview: And if they couldn’t fill that with people finishing training and volunteering to go over or whatever then each base got a- a levy. Oh really. Interviewer: And said, “okay we need X, you know with these MOS’s.” That ever take place there? Never ever, not in those three years I was there, and there was no talk about that either. Interviewer: Of course, yeah, I think being in the Navy as well, and being in an administrative position, I don't think too much, too many administrative things happen in Vietnam in the Navy anyway they… Not that I'm aware of, other than being on ship or yeah, yeah. Interview: So, after Xerox what did you do? Did you stay in the Lansing area the whole time where you were with Xerox? (37.41) No, we moved from Lansing to Jackson, Michigan and I was there until I moved to Rochester, New York in 1980 to go at work at corporate in marketing, and then Xerox being like most big companies, we got rid of 2,000 people one Christmas eve in 1981. And I came to Grand Rapids, �Michigan for the first time and managed the office here at Xerox for several years but remain with them for a total of 24 years. Interview: And then you retired? Now one of my several retirements, yes, from Xerox immediately went to work for a company called Sun Garcon the IT disaster recovery. Going on five years, and then they were sold out to a private hedge fund and then I went to another company as a sales manager there and they werewent out of business after 138 years. So, it seems like every business I started working for and started going out of business. So right now, I teach full-time at Ferris State University in Big Rapids, Michigan. I teach business courses there. Interview: How long have you been teaching? (38.43) I started teaching in 1974 at Jackson Community College my boss at Xerox said, “do you want to teach at college?” I says, “well I've got a master's degree, where at?” He said, “four thousand Cooper Street.” I said, “that's the state prison,” so I taught for five years for the community college but three years at the prison until one day… I oh I gotta rewind the tape a little bit, my first day at the prison I walked into the guard. Interviewer: When was this? It was in 1974. Interviewer: 1974. And I still have my prison ID badge, which cause a little havoc because I had to walk in front of 200 new residents to the prison to get my photo shot before they did. But anyway, the first day I walked to, got on campus in the prison to teach for Jackson Community College. They said, “take all your jewelry and everything off. Just I want your driver's license and your prison ID �badge.” So, I walked in there and the prison said, a guard said to me he said, “well before you go in, I'm gonna have to put this fluorescent dye in your, on your, on your hands,” so he did a letter A here. I said, “what’s that?” “Letter A, look underneath the fluorescent light it shows a letter A.” He said, “well why would you do that?” He says, “well sir” he says, “assume that you're in here and your clothing was acquired.” I'm thinking one and one is two, clothing’s acquired, they found my hand in the hallway. Well I used to teach here, I stopped teaching at the prison after my work hours at Xerox when I had a major fight in my class one day where knives were pulled, blood was drawn, 30 guys were fighting and I called the Dean the next day says “get me off this campus, I do not want to die here.” From that point forward all my colleges, I've taught now at five colleges I never had a problem like at Jackson Community College, it was always better. Interview: Other than the riot in your classroom, how did- how did you feel the students received what you were trying to do? (40.29) It was fascinating, that for them was the cream of the crop to go to college while being as a resident, you're not a prisoner, you're a resident. Because here's the deal back then in 74, state of Michigan with all the fully loaded cost for each of those students, cost us fifteen thousand bucks, the state fifteen thousand bucks per student and I felt that because, here's how I saw if you were going to college in prison you would get up, have breakfast, go work out a little bit, go to the library, study, and go to class. You did not do the laundry, do license plates, or any of the menial stuff. So, this was like the creme de la creme of the population, but you could tell some people were absorbing my business courses and others weren't. I had one guy who's quote “roommate” if you will, this guy was about six foot six his roommate is about five three and he used to cheat on him during the exams and I’d look at this guy he's looking right down in his answers to the �exam. So, this big guy did not want to have a confrontation, so I figured at the end of semester the big guy got a D- and the little guy got an A. To shame for that guy, I never confronted him, although I had the power within the class like a guard to say you go here, you go there. I had a couple guys who were holding hands walking in one day and I said, “look you sit here and you there and don't say a word.” So, I had that power but with regard to having homemade knives in class and that, I was I could, I could have been a victim quite frankly. Interview: Well was there a guard in the classroom when you… No, actually when I fight started, I had a guest speaker in the classroom that was going to take over for me when I went on vacation the next week. We went right out in the hallway when the fight started and there was a guy looked like, like Leave It to Beaver type, no not Leave It to Beaver, Barney Bucks. 90 pounds I says, “we're having a fight in our class.” He started stuttering, “what are you doing.” We went back their classroom, I pointed out that people started and all of a sudden about 12 cops show up and clean out the two guys who were involved in the fight, but that wasn't, he was nearby but not to jump in on the fracas. Interview: Okay so was that your last term teaching there then? There, absolutely yeah and I went back to campus, I kissed the cement on the campus, main campuses thank you lord I’m gonna be alive. Oh, during that time I taught at the prison everybody was framed, they thought I was an attorney walking with a briefcase. You know they wanted to get sprung because they were framed. They got in prison on the wrong circumstances. They were, you know, so I- and he always wanted my phone number and my address at home so they could contact me which they never got, in today's world they could have got it on the internet but back then they couldn't. Interview: Yeah, I don't well, I, they have access to the Internet in prison now? �I have no clue. Interview: I don't think they do. I asked one dumb question the first class I went to, I was trying to find out how long your sentence would be. I says, “on average what does it take to, you know,” I meant to say time, but I didn’t I said, “what does it take to get out of this prison?” A guy said well, “I'll tell you what you jump that fence is about 100 yards to I-94 and you're gone.” It's a dumb question to ask in class. (43.47) Interview: Yeah. Okay so if you could summarize your service time, what- what do you think where your, the- the best part of the experience? I think we had people of the same or equal values that were with us. My colleagues my associates they're my commanding officers. We all had a purpose in mind we knew what our goals had to be. We achieved those goals with no problems in terms of serving our particular assignment within the military, and that was to produce 20,000 orders for people on a yearly basis to get them to train in order to be more effective in support of our, of the United States. So, I think we had a good focus is it- it was actually like a family environment, because when you were there for three years you were not going to be there for two weeks and then take off. Everybody got to know you. In fact, I was looking at my farewell cards for my party, goingaway party that the civilians and the officers gave, and I had like a couple hundred people sign this thing, it was like amazing that they knew me, and I knew them. It was a, it was a nice family environment, very different than my buddies who went on active duty in Vietnam and so forth. Very, very different. (44.59) Interview: Okay and flip the coin over, what was the worst part of the experience? �Well the worst part honestly, it was unrelated to the military. Is the fact that I was not in the workplace working, well as my quote “buddies” who did who got out because they had maybe knee surgery or something and they're making money, and I was making maybe four thousand bucks a year, at the end of three years and they were making twelve thousand dollars and I told my wife I said, “you know I don't know what it ever be like to make twenty five thousand dollars a year.” You know and say, “yeah well twenty, we could live in a mansion.” You know so I had that in the front of my mind all the time. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay well I'd like to thank you for spending time with us and sharing your story. It was very, very interesting. (45.40) It's a bit of pleasure to be with you today. And I’d like to say hello to all my military buddies out there, ex-military buddies. Interviewer: Let's hope they watch it. I hope so too. Interviewer: Thank you. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_TrybusC1471V Title A name given to the resource Trybus, Chester (Interview transcript and video), 2013 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-01-03 Description An account of the resource Chet Trybus was born on March 16, 1945 in Highland Park, Michigan. Trybus was attending Henry Ford Community College in 1965 when he received a draft notice. Wanting to continue his education, he opted to join the Navy Reserves and was sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois, for Boot Camp. While in the Naval Reserves, Trybus was able to continue his education at Western Michigan University since there was a Reserve station in Kalamazoo. After completing his degree, he was stationed at Great Lakes processing recruitment orders as part of his active duty. Since he was stationed in the U.S, Trybus was able to pursue his master's degree while on active duty. He eventually left the service in 1972 and took up work for the Xerox Corporation in Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Trybus, Chester Joseph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy. Naval Reserve Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac620a5c7458838907cdf2c4de25efa2.mp4 65bbdadab15fe252a907d1a461d01c47 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f9c7fd9c34c5084e06cee08ba358552.pdf 8c174e21af3ec005d8999fbb401aecff PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Dave Thrasher Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Dave Thrasher of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Okay, Dave, start us off on some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born on the 19th of May in 1953 in Detroit, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay, and did you grow up in Detroit, or did you move around? Veteran: We spent—I spent my first seven years in Detroit. When I was 3, my father passed away, and then at 7, my mom remarried and then we moved to Iron Mountain, Michigan, because that’s where he was from. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we were up there until I was 10, because unlike what people think today, businesses were moving out of this country even back then. The only two businesses in that area were the foundry and the Ford plant and they both moved to Canada. So, my stepdad moved back to Detroit once he found a job. We relocated back there until I went in the service. Interviewer: Okay. And did you graduate from high school? Veteran: Yes, I graduated from Holy Redeemer High School in Detroit, Michigan. Interviewer: In what year? �Veteran: 1971. Interviewer: Okay. And then what did you do after you got out of high school? Veteran: I went to work at Cadillac Body Plant, Detroit, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay, now you’re doing this at a time when the Vietnam War is going on, and there’s a draft going on. How much attention were you paying to that? Veteran: I paid quite a bit because I had several cousins that were over there. I basically come from a military family. And—in fact, at that time I had 5 cousins that were actually in country. (00:02:08) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, I did pay a lot of attention. Interviewer: Alright. And did you consider at that point just going ahead and enlisting, or were you just going to take your chances and see what happened? Veteran: At that point, it was—I was kind of undecided. Having the military family background, you know, one side of me is thinking but I am also thinking, you know, I do have some relatives over there…Maybe I should wait. But, then when the last draft lottery had me going anyway, I sat down and thought about it and talked with my stepdad, and we figured that you know, if I am going in, I might as well do it myself so there’s—I can get something out of it. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Not just be a grunt for two years. Interviewer: Alright. So, when did you make that decision? �Veteran: I actually made that decision in November of ’72. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I was still working at the factory at that time, and I started the process of going on a leave of absence. Then I spoke with all four service recruiters, and the Marine Corps recruiter was the most fair of the bunch. Interviewer: Okay, and what do you mean by that? Veteran: He didn’t try to sell a bill of goods like a used car salesman. He basically asked me a few questions, he asked me if, you know, if I had any family in the military. I told him yes. He didn’t ask specifics. And he pulled out information on the Marine Air Wing and the Marine groundside and had me go through it. He said if you have any questions, ask. And then, so I told him I would like to go in the Air Wing and he says the only thing I can do is I can guarantee you the Air Wing on the contract. What job you end up with is entirely up to you. You have to earn it. (00:04:07) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So that’s what did it. Interviewer: Alright. But you can go in knowing at that point that you’re not going to be a ground pounder at least. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay, alright. So, you’ve signed up. Now, when do you actually start training? �Veteran: Well I actually took the oath in the Marine Corps Reserves on the 30th of April, 1973. That gave me time to get my family—home situation taken care of, my stuff in storage and all that. And I actually went to bootcamp on the 9th of July, 1973. Interviewer: Okay, and where did you go for that training? Veteran: Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot San Diego, California. Interviewer: Alright, now how did they get you out there? Veteran: They flew us from the Detroit Metro. We flew nonstop from Detroit to LA, and then there was a connecting flight from LA to San Diego. And then when we got off the plane, there’s a bus waiting for us that took us right to bootcamp. Interviewer: Okay, and what time of day did you show up? Veteran: I put my feet on those yellow footprints at what the military would say 0 dark 30 in the morning. It was like 3 in the morning. Interviewer: Okay, because that does seem to be a tradition that they have, to bring people in in the middle of the night. Veteran: Sometimes… Interviewer: Well, at least, it had been in the Vietnam era generally. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Almost everyone I’ve talked to did. �Veteran: I think part of that, especially during Vietnam, was, I think, because it was so much anti…They wanted to avoid issues. Let’s get them in quietly and get things going so they don’t have to deal with all the outside influence. Interviewer: Alright, so what happens to you now? You arrive, the bus pulls into the depot, now what happens? Veteran: You get your first indoctrination to the drill instructor. When this Sergeant or Staff Sergeant, in some cases Corporal, comes on board and basically if you’ve ever seen movies like The D.I. or Tribe where they come on and start yelling, yes they do. And you’re on the yellow foot prints, and they do a head count and they make sure everybody showed up, that nobody disappeared. And then they take you to the barracks. That early in the morning, they just take you to the barracks. And then, come about 8 o’clock the next morning, everything starts. You get started fitting for your uniforms, you form up your platoon, because they have a starting number, then four platoons form into a series, and then you have three series. You have a first, second, and third series. And what they do is, it’s teaching you working together but it’s also teaching you competition because each platoon competes against each other. (00:06:50) Interviewer: Mhmm. Now, how much time do they spend just with the processing stuff? Veteran: It’s kind of an ongoing thing, because they start your physical training and they kind of mix it in in the early days, so you’re not just doing all one thing at a time. They’re trying to get you rounded into the military way of life. Interviewer: Okay. But there’s the head shaving and are there— Veteran: Oh, that’s all, that’s immediately that first morning. �Interviewer: Yep, okay. Now, did they have you take tests and things at this point? Veteran: Yes. And what they do is based on those tests is where they will place you when you leave bootcamp. And it doesn’t matter whether it’s groundside or Air Wing, the test will give them kind of a starting point. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and okay so, and then they’re getting you—they get you past all the hair cutting and uniforms and this kind of thing. What does the bootcamp then consist of? Veteran: Well, it consists of physical training. It consists of rifle qualifications because Marine policy: every Marine is a rifleman. Rifle qualifications, they teach you how to defend yourself. They have what’s called pugil sticks that’s teaching you how to use the rifle as a bayonet, with the bayonet on it. They teach that stuff because the first they’re going to tell you is: I am training you to come home. Marine Corps has always had this policy, as small as an organization as it is, we don’t want you dying for your country, let the enemy die for his. You come home. So, one of the theories was that drill instructors were so hard that you’d survive, or when you got in combat, you’d take it out on the enemy what the drill instructor did to you. But it was all designed to keep you as safe as possible. Get you through as much as they can, both physical and mental, to prepare you for what might happen. It may not happen, but they wanted to prepare you as much as they could. (00:09:01) Interviewer: Okay. And how did they go about instilling discipline? Veteran: Marching. If you messed up, then you did push-ups. Or, if it was a platoon thing, you might go out and do, instead of a 3-mile run, maybe it’s a 6-mile run. Something that—what they would do is if one person messed up, there were times they would punish the whole platoon. And �it wasn’t for you to gang up on the one guy, it was to maybe help him get better or maybe this guy needed—I mean, we started out as a platoon of 72, and at some point, at one point, we were down to only 60. Guys had either dropped out or things happened, some good, some not so good. Interviewer: Would some people get hurt, just in the process? Veteran: Yes, that does happen. It’s not as common as what like the news media would try and portray. I am not talking public broadcasting, but back then of course, there was more antimilitary. So, anytime anything happened, it would make it bigger news than what it probably was. But you also had the case, we had one guy in our platoon was the only one in the whole series pre-qual date, to go unqualified. And when he was confronted in front of the squad bay, he basically told the drill instructor that that’s not why God sent him, he sent him to join the Marine Corps to change their evil ways. And then, we never saw that guy again. We don’t know what it—but the drill instructor figured there’s definitely something not right up there, and they— that’s one of the things they’re trying to weed out. You know, you don’t want somebody that’s got problems like that. I mean, it could develop later on, but here this guy is starting this right away so. Whether he was admin discharged or whether maybe he was sent for some reviews and then maybe come to another unit later, I don’t know. They don’t really tell us those things. (00:11:11) Interviewer: Okay, now did you pick up anybody along the way who would maybe cause trouble early then get out— Veteran: Yeah, yeah we actually had a gentleman join our unit. He had gone UA. He had actually left the base in the middle of his training. He had actually gone back home and was living there. Had actually gotten married. And he sat down one day and realized, you know, one �of these days, they’re going to catch me, and then I’m going to be in jail. So, he talked to his wife, his parents, her parents, and decided to come back. So, after he came back, they reviewed the case. I mean, he came right back to the base and turned himself in. They reviewed the case, they interviewed him and he—and they let him finish bootcamp, and he joined the platoon I was in because that’s where we were training when he left. And from what I gathered, he spent another 15 years in the Marine Corps. (00:12:07) Interviewer: Alright. Now, how long did the bootcamp last? Veteran: Mine lasted 94 days, 10 hours, 20 minutes, and 30 seconds. We actually lasted a few days longer because during that time, it was hard to get recruits because of the anti-war movement. So, we actually spent an extra 4 days, and the rest of it was just basically from the time we landed on the yellow footprints to the time they put us on the bus to take us to the airport. Interviewer: Okay. How long did it take you to adjust to life in the military? Veteran: It did not take me as long as some others. But I did have family background from the military so it made it a little bit easier. Interviewer: Okay. And were you in good physical shape when you went in? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. So, you could survive the physical training and… Veteran: Yes, the—especially the running part. Because part of the PFT test is you had to do a minimum of 3 pull-ups, 40 sit-ups, and you had to run the 3 miles in 28 minutes. The catch to that was, the Marine Corps was smart, they don’t want you doing the minimums. So, if you— �they did a point system. And if you did just the minimums, you didn’t pass. They wanted you to put out effort. They don’t want you just to get by. The running part wasn’t a problem because I ran track in high school. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and I guess during Vietnam, much of the time there was sort of an 8-week bootcamp, and then they would send people off to Camp Pendleton or whatever training they were doing. Now, yours lasted more like 90 days. So, what are they doing? Did you spend some time at Camp Pendleton as well? Veteran: Yes. One, that’s where the rifle range is. And two, that’s where they did some of the war games type things between the different platoons. One platoon would be the unit on defense, the other would be the aggressor and that’s what they would do, and then you’d go back to San Diego. (00:14:08) Interviewer: Okay. Now at this point were you training, you had people who were heading for the Air Wing as well as the Ground Wing, and you’re basically just all together at that point, all doing the same thing? Veteran: Correct. Interviewer: Okay. Now once you complete that training, what do they do with you next? Veteran: Well, once you’ve graduated, of course in quite a few of our cases, there was quite a few of us from the Detroit area, and the only flight going out that day was almost immediately after bootcamp. So, our gear was put on the buses at like 5 in the morning. And as soon as the graduation was over, we were put on the bus and home. You were given 10 days of leave before you report to your next duty station. So, the flight went from San Diego to Chicago, and once I �got to Chicago, I was finally able to let my folks know I was coming home. I actually beat them to the Detroit airport from Chicago. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then from there after the 10 days leave, you report to your next duty station. In my case, I had qualified high enough to go into the avionics field, aviation electronics. So, my next duty station would have been NAS Millington, Tennessee. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do there? Veteran: There, I went through what they call AFAM and AMFA, that’s air frame fundamentals and began to learn the basics about airplanes. They don’t assume you know anything, they start you at the beginning. And then I went through basic electrician and electronics schools, and then I went through aviation electronics class A. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did these schools add up to? Veteran: I reported there the second week of October of ’73, and I left in May of ’74. Interviewer: Okay, so you got like a 7-months, or 6-7 months, okay, at that time. Now, what’s life like while you’re in these training schools? Veteran: One, the first couple weeks there, you’re on Cinderella liberty. It doesn’t matter if your school has started, or you’re waiting for the class to start, Cinderella liberty meant you had to be in by midnight. Literally, or you were in trouble. And basically, that was just to make sure—they kind of, you kind of got acclimated to the area. The other thing is, is you still had all this stuff to do in your barracks: the field days, the cleaning, the morning inspections and all that. So, most of the time you’re getting up about 5 in the morning, going to get breakfast, getting yourself ready. �If you’re somebody like me who has a thick beard, a lot of times I was shaving twice a day to get past—through the inspections in the morning, and then the class inspection at 1300. And then you would go to class. And then of course, during those school times, you don’t go like to the rifle range or anything like that, because they want you to get the education they’re paying you for—they’re paying for. Get you educated so they can get you out into the fleet. (00:17:05) Interviewer: Okay. And what kind of mix of people were you training alongside? Veteran: I don’t know, they were all green. One thing our drill instructor told us in bootcamp, he says you’re not white, you’re not black, you’re not orange, you’re not purple. You’re green, all Marines are green. We had people from all over. In fact, there were people from other countries, and the classes weren’t just Marines. There were also Navy. So, there were blue people too. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and did you get a sense of, you know, kind of just their backgrounds? Did you have people who had been to college or things like that? Or were they all pretty much young? Veteran: We had high school drop outs, we had college graduates, we had high school graduates, we had some that had had some college time. Then there was some that were like me, I graduated high school and worked in a factory for two years, and then there were people that had worked in offices. There was, it was definitely a mixture, (00:18:06) Interviewer: Okay. Now, was all of your training geared toward fixed-wing aircraft? Or was it adaptable for helicopters or…? Veteran: What it is is the schooling you go through in Memphis, whether it be, whether you’re going Navy or Marine, it was based—to get you all the basics, so that you could work either �way. And then once you got out into the fleet, Marine force or into the fleet Navy, there they would give you your basics schools for whichever type aircraft you ended up with. Interviewer: Okay. So, you’re spending this 6-months plus doing this, and you still really don’t know what you’re going to do or where you’re going to go? Veteran: Correct. Interviewer: Okay. Now, once you’ve been there in the schools for a while, I guess you could get beyond the Cinderella liberty stage, so you can go off base a little more and do more things. Did you spend much time off base? Veteran: Yes, I did. One thing I learned from my relatives that were in the service, and one thing I learned the first couple weeks there, I would hear these guys “oh, there’s nothing to do here” because Millington is kind of a little ways from Memphis, it’s kind of out in the country because it is an airfield, military airfield. And I would hear that and I’m like wait a minute. Memphis is down there. There is a history in that. So, every chance I got—in fact, third day in, I actually got 24-hour liberty. Third day, the third day we were there, they—we held formation and they brought us into the classroom, because we hadn’t started classes yet, and they asked for volunteers to go into town to the Baptist hospital to donate blood. Well, three of us did. After we did, they told us the duty vehicle is downstairs and you don’t have to be back until 8 o’clock the next morning. Then of course everybody wanted to volunteer, but it was too late. So, I took advantage any time I went, I could go into town. I went to Memphis a lot of times, just to see it. It was some place I had never been before. (00:20:02) Interviewer: Okay. I mean, did you go listen to music or…? �Veteran: Sometimes I’d go to the bar, just like anybody else, sometimes I’d go to listen to—I’d go to different bars because you’d get a different, you’d get the Memphis beat, you’d get country, you go to this bar and it’s rock and roll, this one over here was more the acid rock, there was a little bit of everything you could find down there. Interviewer: Okay, so you took advantage of that. Now, did you ever have your own car down there or did you just…? Veteran: No, I did not. Interviewer: You just used whatever transport was available. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now you—anything else about that experience in Millington that kind of stands out for you? Veteran: Not that I can think of, just it was an experience. You are getting an education and meet a lot of different people. We’ve—we met, like the story with the guy in bootcamp, we had some incidents down there of things like that. And I am thinking at that point, it’s like you’re already through bootcamp, how can this be any worse? But I didn’t understand it, but I think part of that was family background with military, I didn’t think it was that bad. Interviewer: Alright. So now what’s your first duty station? Veteran: My first, well what happened was— Interviewer: What did you do next? Veteran: Once we grad—completed schools, and of course everybody, like the class I was in, the class that the guys for hydraulics was in, we didn’t necessarily finish at the same time, so some �of the guys I had went to bootcamp with and some of the guys I was there in Memphis with, either had already left or were still there when I left. So, I left in May. I was actually on leave, went home, attended an uncle’s funeral, and then reported to Cherry Point Marine Corps Airbase, North Carolina for school, class assignments for what I was going to end up with. When I was there, the actual orders they had for me were for jets, but the orders were already overdue, so I couldn’t take them. So, I got to spend about 4 days there until new sets of orders came in. They called me in, and I was one of the rare ones that lucked out, they says “Well, we’ve got a set of orders you can have for the EA6 or a set of orders for the CH-46.” Well, I knew what an EA-6 was, but I had never heard of a 46. And they said it was a helicopter. That sounded more interesting so I took those. (00:22:26) Interviewer: You know the 46, that’s a helicopter they have used in Vietnam pretty much the whole way through. Veteran: Quite extensively. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And so, then the orders were cut and I left Cherry Point to report to Marine Corps Air Station New River, helicopter, which is down by Camp Lejeune. Interviewer: Okay, so you’re in North Carolina. Okay, so now kind of describe what you do there? Veteran: When I, I reported into what they call TME-22, that’s training group. Once you’re there, then they assign you to different squadrons. And most of the time, you’d be assigned to the training squadron, it’s called HMT-204, and there you would train on the aircraft. Now when I first went in, basically if you were an avionics man or an aviation electrician, in the helicopter �community, you were basically—it was basically open. You could train on the 46, but according to the regulations, you could work on the 46, the 53, the Huey, the Cobra, the OV-10, the C-130, the C-117 aircraft. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: The helicopters and the three fixed-wing were prop, not jets. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: It was more of an open, because even though the 46 was so extensively used in Vietnam, helicopters were still kind of common, common ground. So, I joined that squadron for training. Upon complete—now that was in May of ’74, I completed that training in September. And I was reassigned back to that squadron, permanent personnel, so now I’ve done it. I’ve made it through all my schools, I am now in the fleet. (00:24:07) Interviewer: Alright. But you were assigned to a training squadron? Or is this…? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because even though it’s, primarily, training is for the crew chiefs, the pilots, that type of thing. Because when you first go to that training school, you don’t necessarily end up there. You could have ended up in—I could have ended up in one of the 53 outfits, because you have two groups there. You have Marine Aircraft Group 26 and you have Marine Aircraft Group 29, and they both have, basically they’re mirrors of each other, so if one group had to go off, you still had something there. �Interviewer: Mhmm. And in the mean-time though, you have the pilots and the air crew there, there is still training all the time. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And you are maintaining the aircraft. Veteran: Correct. Interviewer: Okay. And so how long did you stay there? Veteran: I was actually…The one thing you kind of get used to, once you get in the fleet, sooner or later, you’re going to end up either on guard duty or mess duty, and that’s a 30-day detail. So, in Octo—I only joined the unit permanent in September. Of course, October, I went on guard duty. Third week I was on guard duty, I got called from the barracks to report to S-1. They handed me a set of orders for Kaneohe Marine Air Station, Hawaii. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, I took the month of November off. Took—they gave me 30 days leave, and then fly over there. So, went home, spent it with the family, and a little side not, I ran into somebody I had met in high school. We kind of went downtown together to kind of do the Christmas thing, like through J.L. Hudson’s, I don’t know if you’re familiar with them? Interviewer: Hudson’s was still there when I first moved to Michigan, yep. Veteran: Yeah, well they had that big store downtown where everything was on different floors, and all decorated for the holidays, especially now that they’re getting ready for the Christmas parade and all that. And the young lady I was with, we sat down for lunch and she was talking about—we had met in high school—and she was talking about how she had been on vacation in �Maine, visiting her aunt and uncle, and she—we hadn’t seen each other since high school, we get to talking together. And she thought, asked me if I knew any good place to go for vacation. So, I told her, “Why don’t you go to Hawaii.” And she asked me why and I told her this exactly, I said “Well, I’ll be there, that seems like a good reason.” She later became my wife, my better half. (00:26:34) Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so when you do go out to Hawaii, now are you basically a helicopter mechanic or…? Veteran: Yeah, helicopter aviation electronics. And when I got there, I was, because the squadron had a shortage of personnel because they just had a big turn over, I ended up in a 53 squadron, HMH-463. Interviewer: Okay, just—what’s the difference between the 46 and the 53? Veteran: 46 is a medium range, medium weight helicopter, it has the tandem rotors. CH-53 is a heavy-duty helicopter, it has 6, the alphas and deltas which I started on, had 6 main rotor blades, 4 tail blades, and it could carry an external load of about 20,000 pounds, and it could carry 33 combat troops inside. It was a lot bigger. A lot more powerful. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But you were familiar with those from your training already? Veteran: Well, the electronics were a lot similar. Especially the electronic side with the radios, navigational, and all that. Electrical, you had to learn a little more, because the wiring systems and stuff was a little bit different. And they actually sent me back to school for that. So, I got to the squadron in December, 1974. Got there about the middle of the month. Had my first green Christmas there, which was really weird. Growing up in Michigan, Christmases were always �white. Here you are in Hawaii and it’s like 65 degrees out, you know, on the windward side of the island. (00:28:12) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and then kind of—so you said they sent you to school, did you do your schooling there? Veteran: No, they sent me to—back then it was called Santa Ana Marine Corps Base in California. But, and then it was called Tustin, but now it’s closed down. But yeah, I went there for the school. They actually had schools at Tustin and El Toro. And I went through the school, and basically, it was electrician’s school. Because I already had the common av part down, but if I am going to be working, you got to be able to repair the wiring too. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, I had just finished school and got recalled back to the squadron. Interviewer: Okay, and so when was that? Veteran: That would have been in March, the first week of March in 1975. Interviewer: Okay. Things are starting to get pretty interesting in Southeast Asia by then. Veteran: Yes. That’s why I got recalled. In fact, guys that were on leave were all showing up back. And I reported back to my shop, and the first thing the NC of the shop did was say “don’t unpack.” Interviewer: So, now what happens to you? Veteran: At the end of the month, they put us on board the USS Hancock, which was on her way from San Diego, and we headed towards the Philippines. The only problem is, I had to call home and have my folks tell my girlfriend that, not to come out. I might not be here. And my mom �asked me where I was going. I said “Well, we got orders to the Philippines.” She, the first thing she asked me was, “Is that near Vietnam?” I said, “Nope.” I didn’t know how close it was really but I wasn’t going to say anything to her. We had hunches, but nobody knew for sure. So, they put us aboard the USS Hancock, an old World War 2 aircraft carrier. We left from Hawaii, we sailed to the Philippines. When we got to the Philippines, of course we got liberty for a couple days while the Navy offloaded. They offloaded all the jets. We had 16 CH-53s, and they added some 46s, some Hueys, some Cobras, from Okinawa, just for support. And from there, once we set sail, nobody knew nothing until all of a sudden, we got orders to Cambodia for Operation Eagle Pull. (00:30:36) Interviewer: Okay, and what was that? Veteran: The evacuation of Cambodia. Interviewer: Okay, and who was being evacuated? Veteran: Americans, Canadians, Australians, any Cambodians that were working with those forces. Interviewer: Okay. Now, so basically, how did that process work? What happened? Veteran: We basically—the helicopters launched, we flew in, had specific landing places, landed, picked up these people, and brought them out. And then the last ones of course, once we were down to the finals, the last would have been the embassy staff and the Marine embassy guards. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you fly or did you stay on the ship? Veteran: I stayed on the ship. We had to keep them running. �Interviewer: Alright, now in that operation, did any of the helicopters get shot at or have any damage? Veteran: No. Actually, what was surprising was how concise that operation went. It was very smooth by military standards. We went in, we got the job done, and we pretty much left. Interviewer: How long did that take? Veteran: Just the one day. Interviewer: Okay. And did you, kind of, see the people getting off or…? Veteran: Not too much, because most of them were flown to, like, the command ship, the Blue Ridge, and other ships. None were brought to the carriers. That we were on, anyway. Interviewer: Okay. So, the helicopters could go and they could drop people off on other ships and then come back to your ship for servicing basically. Veteran: Oh yeah. Yes. (00:32:09) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so that was sort of the first adventure. And that’s, was that still in March or are we in April? Veteran: We are in April. Interviewer: Okay, alright. Veteran: April 12th. Interviewer: And in April, now the North Vietnamese have begun their final offensive in the South Vietnam. So, after April 12th, now what do you do? �Veteran: Well, the ship got orders for liberty. We pulled into Singapore. Supposedly, according to the ship’s captain, we pulled in, it was supposed to be 10 days of liberty. Two and a half days later, things kind of went south in Vietnam. So they ordered the fleet up, so we had to—they had to recall people from liberty and get the—in fact, they actually had to—those that got left behind, Navy, Marines, and that, because they couldn’t wait, they had to get going by orders of the fleet admiral. What they did was they flew aircraft in to recover them and then they flew back out to the ships. Because it was kind of unexpected. Interviewer: Okay. So, it got—continue the story now. So, the ship heads back up to Vietnam? Veteran: Now we’re heading up towards the coast. It’s one of those situations, the rumors are flying like crazy. I mean, you’re hearing all kinds of stories, and most of us are just kind of like…Well, our gunny was pretty good about it, the NCIC of the shop, he basically says “Hey, you’re going to hear rumors galore. Just do your job and once we get official word, then we will make sure it gets passed to everybody.” And most of the guys just took it that way. Interviewer: Well, what kind of rumors were floating around? Veteran: Oh, there were…It’s hard to remember pretty much, but basically like “Oh, South Vietnam’s been attacked.” Or “Oh, we are having to arm the birds because this is no longer an evacuation. We are going back in.” Or, you know, there was all kinds of things. (00:34:13) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then there was some people saying “Oh, we are not even going there, we are going somewhere else.” Or something like that. I am kind of like “I’ll just wait until he tells me.” Because like I said, it wasn’t just Marines, the Navy had all kinds of stories. “Oh, we are going �back to the Philippines. You guys are going back to the Philippines and we are taking our jets back because we have to go.” Okay. I don’t remember all of the specifics anymore, because that was quite a while ago. Interviewer: Sure. Okay, and then how quickly does stuff start happening? Are you sending helicopters in right away or do you get a while? Veteran: No. No, the ambassador kept talking with the president. Kept saying “not yet” because things were starting to get—because he didn’t, he really didn’t want to end it. He wanted to continue to support the South Vietnamese people. I’ll give him that one. Finally, on the 30th of April, and we’ve been off the coast, President Ford made the command decision: launch the Marine helicopters. He did not have to have permission because, anybody who knows history knows the military was divided. The President of the United States controls the Marine Corps, Congress controls the Army and Navy, now plus the Air Force. And that was something started by our founding fathers, because they saw where someone had total control of the military, sooner or late it’s a dictatorship. And they didn’t want that. So, he can send in the Marines immediately before convening with Congress, so at least get the ball rolling. So, we got our orders at like 3 in the morning to get the aircraft ready for launch. And as soon as the sun come up, we started launching. By then, he had met with Congress, and now the Navy is also launching, and then you got the huge Air Force transports. We couldn’t use them for very long, though. Because shortly after we launched our first wave, we actually did come under some fire, because the North Vietnamese army was already at the international airport. That’s why in the movies and in the videos, you always see them landing in parking lots, on top of hotels, on top of the embassy, because we couldn’t use the airport. We had to do what we could as fast as we could. (00:36:36) �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we always thanked the President for not dilly dallying. Interviewer: Yep, okay. So, now I was going to say, is your duty essentially the same as it was for Cambodia? You’re on the ship? Veteran: I am actually on the flight deck. Me and one other avionics man. We have what they call a cruise box full of parts and equipment. And as the planes come in, they would announce “Avionics needed on spot 7.” We’d grab our tools, get over there, get it fixed, so it could launch. There’d be hydraulics men, metalsmiths, everything. Interviewer: Okay. And so now, did some of these helicopters come back with battle damage? Or were they… Veteran: There were a few that did have some bullet holes and that. Not very many but there was the occasional, I would say pot shots from the South—North Vietnamese army. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did they follow the same procedure as Cambodia? They would offload elsewhere, did they bring them back out? Veteran: No, they offloaded wherever they could because things really started happening so fast. In fact, we actually had Vietnamese pilots landing on our ship. They had never landed at sea before, so it got interesting. You know, they’re coming in in old 47s, and old Hueys that were left behind for them when we pulled out in ’73. And the only problem was, we had no room for them. So, after they would land, we would help them offload, and then we were pushing the planes out, those aircraft, out to the water to make room for ours. (00:38:07) �Interviewer: Alright. And what impression did you have of the people being evacuated? Did you see them at all? Veteran: I saw a lot of them, and a lot of them, as soon as they’d see you—because of course they were thanking all of the people for getting them out, because unlike Cambodia where the average, of course we didn’t know that at the time, but the average person wasn’t as effected as they were in Vietnam. So, a lot of these people, if they even associated with foreigners, they were possibly going to be executed. So, they were happy. They were glad. They were sad because they were leaving, because that’s their homes. But they were also looking at the other side, they were looking at both sides of the coin, basically. They didn’t want to leave home, but they knew if they stayed…who knows what might have happened to them. Interviewer: Okay. And was this basically a one-day operation? Veteran: It was basically about a 24-hour operation, but it was kind of hectic because we are flying in and, in fact, the captain of our ship—I overheard this conversation—he was being asked, they would keep seeing helicopters load. They would, when they would land, they would reload, restock. Well, they were also restocking with ammo because we all, we carried it. We didn’t know. But of course, we were under orders not to fire. And there were some news media on board some of the ships, and they actually questioned the captain of the ship and he told them, he says “Hey, those helicopters are designed to carry 33 combat troops. We are averaging about 100 Vietnamese people. We are having to throw stuff over the side to make room for these people. We are going to get as many people out as we can.” And then basically, that’s what was going on. On some of those aircraft, we did. We had over 100 Vietnamese men, women, and children on board. Because we were going to do our best to get as many that wanted out of there as they could have happen. (00:40:19) �Interviewer: Okay. And then once that 24-hours sort of concludes, what happens next? Veteran: Okay, now it’s in the middle of the night, we are starting to wrap things up. Come daylight, we are going to be heading out. That’s the orders. Though, we were having to wait because we still had one of the 46s in the air that was flying search and rescue missions, SAR, and they got a radio call from the embassy: the Marines were still there. So, we had to launch, do a hurry up launch to go get them. They kind of got, they were still doing the normal stuff of destroying documents and all that, and they kind of got missed. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But we did get in, we did get them, and bring them back out. Interviewer: So, there is one last bunch there longer than they were supposed to be. But then, the North Vietnamese didn’t come in and…? Veteran: They were actually at the doors to the embassy when we landed. I don’t think they knew anybody was in there. And if they did, they hadn’t actually come in yet. But of course they were going to go through and tear it up and…that was their whole plan. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I don’t know if they knew the Marines were still there or not but we didn’t wait, we got them out. Interviewer: Okay. Where do you go then from there? Veteran: From there, our ship first had orders, the captain of the ship first got orders ‘cause of Mayaguez (reference to the seizure of the cargo ship Mayaguez by the Khmer Rouge off the Cambodian coastline). The captain had to contact the fleet admiral. He says, “Ah, what do I do �with the almost 3000 Vietnamese refugees I’ve got on board?” So, they had to reassign that mission. So, we headed for the Philippines. Once in the Philippines, we offloaded all of the refugees. (00:42:08) Interviewer: Okay. And now, does—you stay with the fleet? Or do you go back to Hawaii? Veteran: Now, what they are going to do instead is they are going to send us back to Hawaii. So, they offloaded our aircraft off of the Hancock, and they put us onboard the USS Enterprise to go home, because she was on her way back to San Diego. The Hancock would be staying out there as part of the Pacific deployment. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, we get to ride the Enterprise back home. Interviewer: Okay, and what vintage was this version of the Enterprise? Veteran: This was the first nuclear powered aircraft carrier. She was made in 1959, but she was still the queen of the fleet, believe me. Interviewer: Now, does that mean you have better quality accommodations or anything else? Veteran: Oh yes. A lot better. And it’s nothing against the Hancock, she was just older. She was—she served in World War 2, Korea, and Vietnam. CVA-19, and you figure we are up to like 79 now, so she was kind of old. Interviewer: Okay. And then you go back to Hawaii and you go back to your base and back to your regular squadron? �Veteran: Yes. Yes, in fact we did a fly off from the Enterprise because she wasn’t stopping in Hawaii, she wasn’t going to be stopping at Pearl, she was going straight home. They had been out at sea for almost a year. And these guys wanted to get home. So, we did a fly off. And when we landed, the base has this grade school. So, as we landed, and they put us in formation, the students from the grade school were there and they come out and each one put a lei around, the traditional Hawaiian greeting, each one of us that came back. So, that was kind of nice. And then, they had customs set up right there in the hanger, and then it was liberty. Interviewer: Okay. And then how long did you wind up staying in Hawaii? (00:44:05) Veteran: I was there from December of ’74 through December of ’77. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did your girlfriend ever get to come out and visit? Veteran: Yes, she finally come out in June of ’75. And at 10:30 in the morning, on the 27th of June, on top of Nuuanu Pali Lookout, I asked her to marry me. Interviewer: I guess that worked. Veteran: Well, she’s put up with me for 43, almost 43 years now. Interviewer: Okay. Now, then, did she stay out there with you or…? Veteran: No, she didn’t stay out, she went back home because of course to break the news to the families and get things ready. And I actually took leave in September of ’75, went back, and we got married there so the families. Interviewer: Okay. And then you just had a little bit more time left in Hawaii. Did she come back out at that point? �Veteran: Yes, she come back out. And then once I was promoted to Corporal, I was able to apply for a company tour, have my family with me. And that added the year. I would have left the island in ’76, but that added one more year because I had my family with me. So, I got—I stayed an extra year. Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you stay with the same unit or…? Veteran: Pretty much. Now, I did have to—I did go on a temporary duty to Okinawa for—from July of ’77 to November of ’77. There was a bunch of us. They were short of personnel. And one of the squadrons was being retired, so they kind of just pulled people. There was some of us that came from Hawaii, some of us came from Tustin Marine Corps Airbase there. Go over and help get those aircraft ready to retire. And during that time, we also had joined war games with a Philippines defense force that were down in the Philippines doing…Playing war games. (00:46:00) Interviewer: Okay. And what kind of impression did you have of Okinawa? Veteran: I actually liked it there. The first time I was there, it was, of course aside from the Philippines, I had never been anywhere but Canada my entire life. Growing up in Detroit, Canada was like a suburb. Because it was actually easier to get to Canada than it was to get to some of the suburbs. To me, I tried to, just like in Hawaii, I’d go traveling around the island. Go visiting. Okinawa, same thing. We were at Futenma, down at the southern part of the island. The whole island is like only 66 miles long. And you didn’t need to have a car or nothing. So, we’d— I’d walk all over the place, just to see it. Interviewer: And how did people there seem to view you, or treat the Americans? �Veteran: Most—when you got away from the actual base, because you always got, I don’t care what military base you go to where or what country’s military it is, around the base, it can be hit or miss. But you get out in the public, it’s a little different. It’s just like anywhere else. And I was surprised at how many could speak English better than a lot of Americans can. But I learned that Japanese, that’s required. Not only their own language—well, Okinawa is actually, was an independent nation at one time. But they do the same thing. They teach their people English because it is a more general language. So, a lot of them could speak it better than a lot of people I know today. And they were nice. And then later on, because I visited Okinawa 3 more times in my career, so I was there 4 times total. I later on learned, I had said earlier my father had passed away when I was young, I didn’t—I knew he was a Marine, but I didn’t know what he did. Well, I found out he fought on Guadalcanal at Okinawa. (00:48:04) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, that even made Okinawa a little—and I took the battlefield tour when I was there, one of the times. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, is there still stuff left in terms of defensive works or things like that? Veteran: Oh, yes. There—a lot of the underground compounds are still there. What they do is they’re caged off so you can see them, and you can still see the bullet holes in the walls, and then they would have maps in back, some of the original Japanese military maps and stuff that you could view. They had other areas, and then at the final part, it’s called the Peace Park where they cover some of the things that went on, how the Okinawans were treated by the Japanese, how they were treated afterwards and stuff like that. �Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and so you’re doing—you also were involved in joint exercises with the Filipinos. Did you work with any of them directly? Or were you just— Veteran: We did a little bit. There was always a Philippine military. Most of the time not on the bases, but they were nearby. I met a few of them. Not a lot because we were taking care of the helicopters, we didn’t see as many. They would be out in the field more. But we would deal with a few of them now and then. Interviewer: Okay. Now, the different units you served with, did you ever train Filipino personnel or have them in some of the training units or…? Veteran: No. No. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so have you basically decided at this point that you are going to stay in the Marines or…? Veteran: At that point, I did not. Because I was over in Okinawa, I was actually thinking about getting out. But I got back in November and of course in December, I am going to be transferring. And I still had 2 years left on my contract, because I had enlisted for 6. And we were talking about it, because it has been 4 years, and I talked with the wife. And at that point back home, Detroit, of course with the oil embargo, there was a lot of layoffs. Even my dad called and says even where he was working, and he worked for Guardian Glass, he said there’s not a lot of work back here. So, I talked with her. Our son was born in ’76 there in Hawaii. At that point, I decided to re-enlist, and I re-enlisted before I left, for another 4 years. And after that, yeah. It was pretty much obvious what was going to happen. (00:50:43) Interviewer: Alright. So, after Hawaii, now what is your next assignment? �Veteran: Actually, I got orders back to Marine Corps Air Station New River, back to HMT-204. Right back to where I started, which I thought was kind of funny. Now, I did spend quite a bit of time in North Carolina, but I was with different units. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I was with 204 for a short period of time, then I joined HMM-261 which is Medium Marine Helicopter squadron. And what happens is those squadrons are a part of the float system for the deployments. It’s a squadron, they will have 12 46s, and then we supply 453s and they supply Cobras and Hueys. And then you spend 6 months out at sea, on a float, med float. Now, the one thing that happened while I was in Hawaii, to regress a little bit, the Marine Corps went to specific MOS’s, so whatever squadron you were in at the time, that’s your MOS now. So, my MOS became 6323, which was com-nav technician on the 53s. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, that’s what I am going to be working on the rest of my career. Interviewer: Alright, so you no longer get to be the jack of all trades and work on all those different airplanes. Veteran: Right. They’re advance—the electronics are advancing to the point where it would actually cost the military, not just the Marine Corps, but the Navy and—the electronics are advancing so much that, what would happen is it would cost more to keep retraining then to just put them in a specific aircraft. (00:52:14) Interviewer: Okay. So, now you’ve got that. Did you go on these cruises then? �Veteran: I went on a med cruise. We left in September of 1979 and came back in February of 1980. Interviewer: Okay. What was that cruise like? Veteran: Basically, you cruised the Mediterranean with the Atlantic fleet. They have a carrier, attack group, and what they call a helicopter assault group. You spend 6 months, you do like, when we first got out there, we did a joint operation with the Greek and Turkish Armies, called Display Determination. Of course, the Cold War is going on back then. The Russian southern fleet is down there so you’re kind of showing the Russians that hey, we are still here, we are still keeping an eye on you, type thing. And then you spend the rest of the 6 months floating around the Mediterranean. Like, we pulled liberty in Greece. When you go into Naples, one time it was a liberty port, another time it’s a working port. We’d spend a couple weeks there. But that allows you to get the aircraft worked on. We did some war games in Sigonella, out—we spent some time out in the field in Sardinia. We also saw Spain. Got to spend Christmas in Palma de Mallorca, which is basically Spain’s version of Hawaii. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. And when you go ashore, what kind of treatment or reception do you find in these places? Veteran: Pretty good. One night in Palma, after I had shore patrol one day, and then we were out one evening. We were sitting there drinking and some gentleman joined us, and we are drinking and it turned out they were from the Russian army that was on liberty there. And I made the mistake of trying to do my turn to buy. No, no, no. Basically grabbed my arm and says “No, no, no. We buy for Marines.” Most of the people, in every country I have been, if you get out and �treat them like you would normal people, don’t play the tourist or the typical party hardy military, they’re fine. (00:54:43) Interviewer: Okay. You did shore patrol. What does that duty consist of? Veteran: Basically, you’re on duty, usually it’s for one 24-hour period. And you’re basically kind of patrolling out there. A: You’re trying to keep the guys from getting in trouble. B: You’re just kind of watching them also. I mean, you’ve got both sides of the coin. You’ve got people that will try to take advantage of the military. You’ve got the military that’ll try to take advantage of a situation. And you just want to try and keep it calm. You’re not trying to get anybody in trouble, you’re just…Like, a lot of the bars and night clubs throughout, they’ll invite you in and buy you something to eat. Because when you are in there, everybody behaves, not just the military. And then when you go on to the next one, they’ll do the same thing. It’s not as bad as ‘course the movies always play it up a little more. Yes, we do have incidents but that’s what we are there for, to try and keep it calm. Interviewer: Right. Okay, a little broader question at this point. So, you—you’ve been in now for a fair number of years, you’ve come in in the mid ‘70s and you know, through the late ‘70s. Were there problems that you ever noticed with the things like drug use or alcoholism, or that kind of thing? (00:56:11) Veteran: I don’t know if it was and I didn’t pay so close attention. I mean, yeah we all partied hard but it seemed like we worked just as hard. There could have been but I’ll be honest, I didn’t pay as much attention. Or maybe instead of making a public issue out of it, they just handled it. I’m sure it was there. Interviewer: But it wasn’t something that ever kind of caught your attention. �Veteran: No, it was—no. Interviewer: Yeah. You know. And how would you characterize morale in the units you were with? Veteran: For the most part, the morale was pretty good. We did have one incident on our med cruise where a guy had a rough time, because as well as we were being treated by the locals, Americans was another story back then. And this gentleman, he was from a small town in New England. And he ran into people he had gone to school with their kids. And they treated him like dirt. He was an American Marine. He was treated better—we were treated better by the Russians there in Palma than he was treated by people from his hometown. And it was hard on him for a while, because he was younger than I was. I was 20 when I went in the service. And it hit him hard. But for the most part, we’d do our job. We’d go out on liberty. Come back, do our job. Interviewer: Alright. And how much contact do you have with home while you are out with the cruise? Veteran: Back then of course, you didn’t have the internet like you do, so it was mail. Now, my wife come up with a smart idea. Because the mail system, once you get out with that fleet, turtles go faster. So, she started numbering the letters, and then I started numbering them back. That way when letter 4 got there before letter 2…You’d here guys open a letter, “What do you mean you solved this problem? What problem?” Well here, she would put it in sequence so you could—so I would just put letter 4 away until letter 2 showed up. Or if I read letter 4, I’d say well, I’ll wait and find out what went on when letter 2 gets there. So, she was pretty good about that. And then every once in a while, when it was available, they would set up the radio on the ship where you could, they could call to a ham operator in the states, and then all you’d have to �pay for is the call from that ham operator’s house to your house. And you could talk on the radio. Of course, it was limited. And you had to do the over and out and all that. But that was kind of a joy thing to do every once in a while. (00:58:45) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now did you have just the one med cruise or…? Veteran: One med cruise. Interviewer: And did you have cruises in the Caribbean or the Atlantic otherwise? Veteran: Well, the Caribbean was the evacuation of Cuba, 1980. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We had got back in February. And next thing you know, we hadn’t, the squadron hadn’t broken up yet, it was still composite. They put us on board the USS Saipan with new LHAs and sent us down for the evacuation of Cuba. So, I guess you could call that a Caribbean cruise. Interviewer: Okay, now why was there an evacuation of Cuba? Veteran: Basically, a lot of the Cubans had finally pretty much had it. And they were leaving. And problems were that’s hurricane season. And these people were just leaving on rowboats, on rafts, on—and then of course, you had, and I am not going to say it’s any particular nationality, but you had the bloodsuckers. They were taking their yachts down and charging thousands of dollars to get people out. And we helped the Coast Guard with that too a little bit, confiscating— basically, it’s called piracy. (1:00:00) Interviewer: So, what’s—so, you’re calling it a evacuation, but it’s not like Cambodia or Vietnam where you are flying into the country to pick up people? Veteran: No. �Interviewer: Because the only American presence really in Cuba at that point is at Guantanamo, and we didn’t evacuate Guantanamo. But the Cubans—this is the era of the boat, Cuban boat people, large numbers of them all leaving and taking to the sea, and so you’re picking people up out of the water? Veteran: Yes. And in some cases, the boat was swamped, they’re all floating in the water. These are shark infested waters. We are getting them out as fast as we can. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It was an interesting time. Interviewer: Would you bring them onto the ship or…? Veteran: We would bring them onto the ship, and then because it wasn’t that far, we would fly them over to the aircraft carriers because they had planes, they could actually take them into Miami and into the airport. So, they didn’t stay with us. That allowed us to continue down there a lot longer than we probably would have been able to. Interviewer: So, how long did you stay doing that? Veteran: We were only down there about a month. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, okay. And then did you go to sea for other things or just otherwise stay on the base? Veteran: Well, I pretty much stayed on the base after that. Now we are getting—that’s 1980. So, ’81, ’82 I am pretty much on the base. Well, I am working on the base. We actually lived downtown. I joined the volunteer fire department in my area. The one thing about North Carolina, there’s a lot of volunteer fire departments. Just in the county where we lived, Onslow �county, you had 23 fire departments and only 2 of them were paid. That was the base and the city of Jacksonville. The rest was all volunteers. And you’d meet all kinds of people. There were military that—one of the guys on one of our sister fire departments was the weather reporter for channel 12 news. I mean, everybody helped out. You took care of each other. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I pretty much stayed there. Now, I left 261 in ’80. But instead of going back to 20—HM-204, I got reassigned to HMH-362. (1:02:11) Interviewer: Alright. And that, was that again a Medium Helicopter— Veteran: No, this was actually a full, heavy helicopter squadron. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then, towards the end of the year, they came out with a program. The Marine Corps was getting the new CH-53 Echoes and they were looking for people to go for schooling on it. And I submitted my name. And when I went for the interview with the maintenance chief, he told me, “You probably won’t get this because you’ve only got one med cruise.” He said “they’re, you know…” But what happened was, it just so happened I was the only com-nav tech that applied. The rest were electricians. So, I got the school. So, I got to go to the Sikorsky factory in Connecticut for schooling on this new helicopter the Marine Corps was getting. Interviewer: Okay. And what really made this one any different from the earlier ones? Veteran: The A’s and B’s—the A’s and delta’s the Marine Corps had, you had 6 main rotor blades. And if you went from tip to tip, you’re talking about 76 feet. It could carry about 33 combat troops, and then if—in combat, a lot of times you had a crew of 5: you had the pilot, �copilot, you had the crew chief who was also the door gunner, you had the first mech who was also the window gunner on the other side. But one thing we learned from the guys in Vietnam is a lot of times when the helicopters would land, and the ramps would open to let the Marines out, the enemy would fire in. So, they put tripod mounts to put M-60s so when the ramp lowered, we could shoot out and hopefully nobody shot back. We didn’t want to know, we just something they—so you could have that extra person. Well, with the new helicopter, the Echo, the first thing it was it had inflate refueling capabilities. And instead of 6 main rotor blades, it had 7. And tip to tip, it was about 79 feet. Interviewer: Okay. (1:04:04) Veteran: Instead of 2 engines, it had 3. It could carry 55 combat troops, or it could basically lift its own weight: 30,000 pounds. External load. So, you’re getting this heavier duty. And the basic reason that the Navy and Marine Corps wanted it is that it could lift everything in the Navy, Marine Corps inventory. Ground or air. So, if a jet went down, we could got get it and get it back. Not have to leave it behind. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so how long did you spend in Connecticut? Veteran: Well, there was 2 separate classes. The first time was about 2 ½ to 3 months. Then we reported back to our squadrons. And then we went back up to help finish up because once—the second time we were up, we were only there a couple of months. But that was to get things wrapped up because those planes were going to start joining the fleet. And form the first squadron, which was HMH-464. Interviewer: Okay, and did you join that squadron? Veteran: Yes. We—and then we got the first of the air frames. �Interviewer: Alright. Okay, now where was that squadron going to be based? Veteran: It was based at MAG-29 Marine Corps Air Station in New River. Interviewer: Okay, so you’re still basically at home. Veteran: Yep, just now I am on the other side of the base. From one side of the base to the other, basically. Interviewer: Now, did that squadron go on a cruise or just stay where they were while you were there? Veteran: Pretty much it wouldn’t go anywhere. It didn’t have a full complement of aircraft. And part of it was a bunch of us ended up on what’s called the FOTNE—Fleet Operational Test and Evaluation. We were sent on what they called temporary additional duty orders to Quantico, Virginia, home of Marine helicopter squadron 1. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: On the green side. The white side would be the President’s side. What we were going to do is run this new helicopter through its paces. So, we did some flight training there in the Quantico area. And one of the things we had to do was take it up to Pax River to the Navy test center, fly it there so they could run some tests on it, including this guy who zaps lightning into the planes. It’s an actual electronic machine that was created and they would actually—they wouldn’t actually put the aircraft in the air, but they would do all the simulations, right there. They would put it up on jacks and raise the landing gear so it would simulate that the plane was flying, hit this electricity with it. Because that’s something that aircraft have to deal with in flying is lightning strikes. (1:06:35) �Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then they would study the effect it had on the rotor blades, on the electronic equipment, on the fuel system, so they could come up with ways to protect it. And then from there, we flew it out to the west coast, did some mountain training with it. And then one of the things they did from—they flew it from Tustin, California to New River, North Carolina nonstop. First ever helicopter, nonstop, cross country flight. But this was all testing these systems out. Interviewer: Right, and of course this is one you can refuel in the air so that would be a good idea to test. Veteran: Correct, it just kept right on going. Interviewer: Okay, now how common was it for you to fly in these helicopters? Veteran: Once I had gotten trained enough, I ended up on avionics test stints. When planes would get fixed, sometimes they would require a test flight. So, then you would have an avionics man, a hydraulics man, a metalsmith would all fly on it just to watch those systems that were fixed to make sure everything is working. So, I got to fly quite a lot. And any chance I could, I’d fly on them. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so now how long then do you stay with that new unit? Veteran: I stayed with 464 for a short period of time, then I was transferred to the HAMS-26. That was the—basically the command next step up from a squadron. You’re going into a—and what I would do is I was sent there as part of the group quality assurance, where we kind of overseen all the maintenance on all of the squadrons. Plus, we would get tech crews in. Like, �they were designing some new systems for the aircraft, and it was our—it was civilian crews, and it was our job to oversee what they were doing, make sure they didn’t mess anything up or if they had problems that we needed—we were kind of the go-betweens. And then we would look over the aircraft, make sure everything was ready to go before it got returned to the unit. (1:08:33) Interviewer: Okay. Now, have you been moving up in rank at all during these times or…? Veteran: Little by little. I am now a sergeant. In fact, while I was with HAMs, I got orders back to Hawaii. Now of course while we were in North Carolina, our daughter was born there at Camp Lejeune. So, I got orders back to Hawaii and back to 463. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And the one thing I liked about it, aside from the military thing, because I liked Hawaii. Even when you’re broke, you can always go to the beach and go swimming. I mean, there is always something to do. But my son was now old enough to see where he was born. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: That was kind of nice. And then the one thing we always did when we got orders like that, especially when the kids were gone, I didn’t take the rush out there. I took the maximum time they would allow. And we would tour the country. Kids would see things that they would talk about in school later on, you know. Or visit relatives and stuff like that. So, we wouldn’t rush it, we would make a vacation out of it but we’d—they’d learn too. You know, Mount Rushmore, Yellowstone, all of these places that they probably wouldn’t have seen otherwise. Interviewer: Sure. Okay, so when do you get to Hawaii this time? �Veteran: Let’s see, it was ’83. I am thinking right around September or October of ’83. Interviewer: Okay. And how long will that tour last? (1:10:00) Veteran: 3 years, because I had my family with me. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It would be two years if you’re unaccompanied. I know that they have changed it since then. I don’t know what it is now. Interviewer: Okay. And now was this a fairly quiet period or…? Veteran: For the most part, yes. In fact, at that point, I had only spent a little bit of time in my MOS in avionics when I got reassigned to maintenance control. Maintenance control, just like QA and stuff like that, they would take different people from different shops. And what you would do in maintenance control, that’s just what it sounds like, you’re controlling the maintenance of the aircraft. You’re getting the information from the operations department “we need the helicopters configured for this for these operations.” Then you’re going with the shops to make sure they’re configured for whatever training. You’re making sure what they call downing discrepancies are taken care of and things like that. Keep the planes operational and safe. Interviewer: Okay. Do you go out with the fleet at all, or are you just entirely on the base? Veteran: Pretty much on the base. At one point, I was transferred to the medium helicopter squadron for a 6-month debt to Okinawa, which was common. And they would rotate people, and mine was in—my tour trip to Okinawa was in ’85.’Course, I stayed in maintenance control because once you are in, they kind of like to keep you. Well, part of it is that you have the �authority to sign a plane safe for flight. So, basically you are taking all of that information from all the work centers, the operations, and you’re saying that you have compiled it all, that you have compared it, you have talked with QA, the plane is safe to fly. You are signing that piece of paper, then that pilot and crew is going out there and flying it. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, you kind of—once you get in there, they kind of keep you there because they put some training into it. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, anything else that kind of stands out about that tour in Hawaii, that period? (1:12:01) Veteran: Well, when I went to Okinawa, I also—we also ended up aboard ship, down to the Philippines again. But that was just—and then, having to spend a couple days, just floating in the ocean, because we were caught between two hurricanes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we couldn’t go anywhere. Then going back to Okinawa. Also went up to Yokosuka air base. Interviewer: Japan. Veteran: Yes. Actually, we went to the Navy base. Spent some time there. But the bad luck was when we got there, the USS Midway pulled in and used up the Navy barracks so us with our 453s, we were forced to stay at a hotel in town. Interviewer: Gee, sorry about that. �Veteran: Yeah! That was kind of nice because you get to meet the people. Though, they did have a problem with the hotel design, and I always talk about this. Back then, they didn’t have the key cards, so you had to go get your key from the desk, and then to get to your elevators to get to your room, you had to go through the bar. Interviewer: Okay. A nice little trip. Veteran: Yeah. So, that was interesting. And then different—and then one of our officers found out we were going to be up there, so he managed to purchase a whole bunch of tickets to Tokyo Disneyland. So, a bunch of us went to Disneyland in Tokyo, which was very interesting. Interviewer: So, what did they have at Tokyo Disneyland? It just looked like a regular Disneyland? Veteran: Yeah. It wasn’t quite as big, because this was only its third year in existence, it had only been there 3 years. It was still growing. But it was kind of neat. It was—I had taken the kids to Disneyland when we transferred and a lot of it was the same. The only thing you kind of had to get used to was on the cars, the narrations were in Japanese, but all the characters, like in the haunted mansion, they’re speaking English. It could get a little confusing at times. But if you paid close attention, you could figure out what was going on. (1:14:22) Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: But other than that, it was enjoyable. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and so when does that Hawaii tour end up? Veteran: That ended about September of ’86. Interviewer: ’86, okay. �Veteran: And then I got back orders back to New River. Now of course, here’s on the other side of the coin, now my daughter is old enough to see where she was born. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Of course, I don’t know if you are familiar with the term, but both of my kids are military brats. And in case anybody is curious, it means born, raised, and transferred in the service. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, we are back there. Now this time, I get there in ’80—towards the end of ’86, but it was only a 3-year tour this time. I joined 360—yeah, 362 I went back to. And we lived in a different part of town and I joined another volunteer fire unit. And then, in ’90, it was kind of uneventful. Went on a few little debts. No more—I did in ’88, once we got back there, I did go on a North Atlantic cruise. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Called Teamwork 88. Up around Norway and then for liberty, we got to go to Ireland for 4 days. So, that was nice. But that was only, that was a short thing, just a—basically, war games with the Norwegian, Swedish, Royal Marines, British Navy up in the North Atlantic. (1:16:02) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now you get down toward 1990, now you’re getting to the point where Saddam Hussein decides that Kuwait should be the 21st province of Iraq and things get interesting again. �Veteran: Well, I was in North Carolina at the time, and I got orders to California this time. To Tustin Marine Corps Air Station helicopters. Now, this was in February of ’90 and the kids were in school so me and the wife talked about it and decided going to—now I am already to the point where I am on my last hitch, basically. But one thing we learned in the military, and it don’t matter what service, if you turned down orders, that’s an excuse for them to send you packing. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, I got orders. With the kids in school, we decided we are not going to pull the kids out of school because they would miss so much school, it would hurt them. So, her and the kids stayed in North Carolina and I headed out to California. Along the way, I kidnapped my wife’s grandmother. Well, I was traveling ahead and found out that my wife’s cousin lived in California and their grandmother was going to go out in a couple weeks to see them. Well, her cousin’s husband was going to leave on a Friday afternoon, drive all the way to Nashville, Tennessee, get a couple hours sleep and then drive back so he could be back to work on Monday and we are like, well, I am going anyway. So, we called them up to see if she could come out a couple weeks early and she rode with me. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, I get out to there and I check in the HMH-466, part of that squadron. Now, one of the first things that happened is just becoming part of it, and I actually ended up in maintenance control again. Like I said, once you are in, you’re pretty much stuck. They’re going to—it’s going to happen. You learn to accept it. And then after the kids were out of school, in July I went back and got the family. Took some leave, went back and got the family. Actually, that would have been June, because in July our unit got orders up to mount warfare training, so we took a �couple of helicopters up there to play in the mountains on the north side of Yosemite. So, now I am seeing some place else I had never seen before. (1:18:20) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that’s one of the things I will be the first to admit, all the places I went, it was enjoyable. Except one, and we will get to that one later. The place was kind of enjoyable, but the whole reason we were there made it not so great. And then the other thing I recommend to people, when you are places, enjoy the local food, see. That’s like, regressing back a little bit to North Carolina, when—the first time I was there, we lived out in town. My next-door neighbor was a Jacksonville city police officer. And within a couple months, I knew more about the area than he did. I had been to the Battleship North Carolina, I had been to the Tryon Palace, which was the original government seat of the state of North Carolina. I got out and visited and did things, I didn’t just hang around the base or hang around the house. We would take the kids, we would go places. And I think that’s one of the big things. I think where a lot of guys get turned off of the military or women, both, I don’t want to pick on one or the other, they all they do is hang around the base and then after a while they get so frustrated, when there is so much to see out there. Interviewer: Alright. So, we are going to go back in here to your story. So, you go and do the mountain training, and then what happens next? Veteran: Well, while we are up in the mountain training, we got orders back to the base. Unit is pulling out. We are being deployed. This was a little different than going on a ship. We were taking 8 aircraft, and we were going to break them down. We are going to break them down so that they can be loaded into C5As. Once broken down, you can fit two and then you put crew on �top. We had our orders, we were going to Saudi Arabia. Now, my NCIC, considering I just got my family out there, put me on the last flight leaving. He said, “I will give you a little more time to spend with your family since you just got them.” So, I was on the last plane that left. We broke down our helicopter. It takes about 12-13 hours to get them completely broke down. You got to remove all the rotor blades, you got to remove one tail blade, an upward collision light, you got to fold the tail, you got to remove the gear box, you got to deflate the struts, you got to take the helicopter tires off and put jet tires on, you got to remove the fuel probe and all the electronic equipment too, and then they can actually be pushed into the C5As. (1:20:45) Interviewer: How long does it take to break one down? Veteran: About 12 hours. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Constant work. And it takes about 14 hours—it takes about 12 hours to put them together, and then you got to do a test flight, about 2-hour test flight, once you put them back together. Interviewer: Okay, now if you are flying in a C5A, it’s a big transport plane— Veteran: Right. Interviewer: What kind of accommodations does it have for passengers? Veteran: It has a whole upper area that is—seems like an airline. Interviewer: Okay, so it’s not like being in a C-130 or something like that? Veteran: No. I have flown in some of them too. �Interviewer: Okay. So again, it’s like 12-13 hours or whatever, a long flight out to Saudi Arabia. Veteran: Yeah, we flew from Tustin, California. Being how we were the last ones, we had to go straight through, where the others got to stop at the Air Force base outside of Philly. We flew straight through to Germany, and then once they got, once the embassies got clearance for us to fly over Egyptian airspace, then we went down and landed in—at Jebel International Airport, where our aircraft were offloading. We started putting them back together. Interviewer: Alright, so when did you actually get to Saudi Arabia? Veteran: Let’s see…It would have been August of 1990. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And now once you are there, what happens? (1:22:02) Veteran: Well we were at—first off, we were in Jebel, which is the international airport. Brand new, hadn’t even opened yet. Now the U.S. military is using it, and met some very interesting Saudi personnel. Some of the Saudi Navy was there, so they were really helpful in helping us get kind of acclimated to the area. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then we start putting our aircraft together and get them tested. And apparently, Saudis are some very nice people. We had been there about a week and one of the things we used to do was take tarps to cover the windscreens on the helicopters because that’s not glass, it’s a plexiglass composite material. And in that hot sun, they would warp. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: So, you cover them to protect them. Well the one—the Saudi crew that was sharing the area that we were at inside the hang—inside the terminal, asked us where they could get some of those so we gave them the information. And a couple nights later, we were invited over to one of their hangars. They had all these tarps spread out and they brought in dinner. They treated us to dinner, and then they had a whole refrigerated semi full of coke brought in because they were thankful, as far as they were concerned, us arriving so quick kept Saddam from invading. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Now, I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I wasn’t going to turn down food. It was delicious. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now the official Gulf War per se doesn’t start until early 1991, so you got a period of months there, there’s a build-up of allied forces going on. Veteran: Right. And then our unit, once our aircraft were fully tested and built up, we were moved to Ras al Ghar, we were moved closer to the front. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, we could support the ground troops. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And the, anything else, heavy equipment, stuff like that. Interviewer: Okay. Aside from the heat, what other kinds of problems were there with trying to run a helicopter unit? (1:24:04) Veteran: The sand. Think of a sand blaster. What it would—you got this rotor head turning 20,000 rpm. So, we—rotor blades were an issue because when they are turning like that, �especially in the sand, it starts eating away at the paint and the material. So, we learned from the Israeli air force on tips to help with that problem. But I would say the biggest issue was the sand. Interviewer: Okay. And would that mess up other parts of the aircraft as well? Veteran: Yeah, it would. Interviewer: It would get into everything? Veteran: It would get into everything. And yes, it would be hard on the electronics, it would be hard on the air frame, it would be hard on just about every part of that aircraft. Interviewer: Okay. Now, while you are there this period of several months, I mean are you following news and trying to keep up on what’s happening or do you just do your job and ignore everything else? Veteran: We would hear occasionally—because once we got to Ras al Ghar, it wasn’t a whole lot of direct communication. Because, it was one of those things, in fact we had—a bunch of us had a t-shirt made and it showed the map of Saudi Arabia on it and it said “Somewhere, Somewhere Else.” You know, because you’re not allowed to say where you’re at. And we kind of made a joke about it but it was limited what we would get just because of that reason. Their thing was is if we had too much direct access, the enemy could figure out where we were. And you really don’t want them to know. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that was the primary thing, and for the most part, you know, we’re helping get the troops placed where they need to be placed, we’re doing our jobs. And basically, that was the primary. �Interviewer: Okay, so you’re moving Marine personnel and supplies to different places? Veteran: Right. The artillery, stuff like that. And then we continue our training too because you never want to stop. The more you train, the better. The more—so you keep flying anyway, keep the aircraft available because you never know what’s going to happen. We didn’t know. Today its nice, peaceful. Tomorrow, we might get the word. So, we are going to be ready. (1:26:18) Interviewer: Okay, now aside from meeting some of the Saudis, do you see any of the other coalition people there? Veteran: We saw some Australians, course we saw Israelis. They helped, they were real helpful with a lot of that stuff because they deal with the sand all the time and they use a lot of U.S. aircraft. Interviewer: Were there Israelis in Saudi Arabia? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Wow, you don’t hear about that too often. Veteran: Not in a sense that they were a part of the coalition, but they were—because they were allies. They were there to help us get through that stuff because they had their side of the fence to really watch. Interviewer: Okay, because I guess that’s the period when Saddam is shooting Scud missiles at Israel as well as Saudi Arabia. Veteran: And just shooting them everywhere. Interviewer: Yep. �Veteran: Yeah, he wasn’t too particular. Of course, the Scud missile was not one of your most accurate. Once you launched it—you could aim it at, let’s say Riyadh, and it might hit 60 miles the other way. It was not a very accurate missile, so once they launched, everybody is put on alert because you don’t know where it might land. Interviewer: Now, did any of them land in any of the areas where you were? Veteran: We had a couple of close calls. The Patriot missiles took care of that. We got put on alert. Got woke up at 0’dark thirty in the morning to go get in our bunkers because there was one headed, and the Patriot missiles took care of them. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: None that actually hit but there were a few times. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how much sort of outside news are you getting while you are there? Communications any better than they were back in the Vietnam era or…? (1:28:00) Veteran: Oh yeah, they were a lot better because a lot more computerized. And the squadron was also trying to help. Like what they would do is they’d call up—get the wives and families—over to the squadron, the hangar, and they would do a videotape. So, you could say hi to everybody, and then they would send that to us. And then they would at times—of course, we couldn’t do like the family did and meet all at one time, we’d have to do it a little bit at a time because you’ve still got jobs to do. And then we would get to return—and then they would send it back. Mail was a little bit better. I won’t say a lot because the mail system when you are…But it was a little bit better. Of course, you’re in an area where you can get more news. We weren’t too far from Aramco, the international oil company that serviced the oil rigs for the Saudis. So, you had those people. They would come and visit and they would pass things on. And there was a little, �you know, of course you’re talking in the ‘90s, now you’ve got satellites are more prevalent so. But you didn’t have like tvs in every tent or nothing like that but it was a little more accessible. Interviewer: Right. So, you’re not watching CNN or— Veteran: No. Interviewer: Or that kind of thing. Veteran: No. He did. Saddam. That’s one of the reasons they didn’t want us broadcasting where we were or getting—because he’s paying attention on those. Interviewer: Mhmm. Yeah. Okay, now as we get closer to the operation starting, how much advance warning did you have that it was on? Veteran: Well, we kind of got a sneak peek. Our maintenance, our supply chief—material control chief—had gone up to Jubail, where our group headquarters was, to pick up some supplies and he heard something was in the wind. He didn’t hear any details but he did pick up. So, when he got back—so we started prepping. They, we got everybody up at 3 o’clock in the morning, set up crews. We were going to make sure we were ready. And if it didn’t happen, well, that’s alright. But it did happen. We got orders to launch. (1:30:11) Interviewer: Okay, so now what happens? Veteran: Well, we got our 8 aircraft ready to go and we launched them. Our sister squadron launched theirs and at that point, all we can do is sit and wait. Wait until they come back. Interviewer: So, how long would they be out? Veteran: Well that first day, they were gone most of the day. And then if you’ve ever seen war movies where they all—where you see guys sitting there counting planes when they would come �back? Well, that’s what we did when they started coming back. We are sitting there counting them as they fly by, to make sure we had 8 come back. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: We sent 8 out, we want 8 coming back. And we were lucky. For the most—we didn’t lose any aircraft at any given time. Interviewer: Okay. And did you learn anything about what they actually had done while they were out? Veteran: Yeah, we would hear about it, because of course they would have to go debrief and all of that. And of course, you would hear about it sooner or later. It would be different things going on. Part of it, which I won’t go into any details—I don’t know what’s considered anything—but part of it we’d be relocating the troops. Okay the troops are at this point, now they’re over here or the artillery was here, now we are moving it over here. You know, strategic placements. Interviewer: Mhmm. But they are not involved in any kind of combat assault sort of thing or…? Veteran: In a way, because we would fly the troops to the combat zone. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then they would offload to go. To that extent, or we would take the artillery crew and their gun to a spot where they are going to start firing. So, our helicopters with their .50 cals are their initial defense when we first land. Hopefully—and one of the reasons you don’t want to keep the helicopters, because that would, as big as it is, it would give away a position sooner or later. So, you’d get them in and then get out. (1:32:09) �Interviewer: Yeah. Right. Veteran: So, they could do their job faster. Interviewer: Yeah. And I guess a lot of weapons have long enough range that that bad guy some distance away with machine guns or whatever could still target you, with missiles or whatever they’ve got. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, now the—how long does this sort of go on? I mean does it just…Because like the war, per se, the shooting war officially is only a few days. Veteran: Well, for the troops and that—ours went on quite longer because you had to move them, they had to move them to Kuwait so we had to support—keep them supplied. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then if any were—they had the helicopters to bring those that were injured, or wounded or whatever, out. Plus, you bring in fresh supplies, fresh troops. Our helicopter squadron was one of the first 53 squadrons there and most of the 53s, of all of the squadrons that were there, were some of the last to leave. Because of the versatility. Interviewer: Right. Because you are moving personnel and supplies around. Veteran: We could move personnel, we could move the cargo. We can recover a Humvee that’s broke down or been shot up. We can recover a downed jet. It’s so versatile, there’s more that it can do. So, it’s—so when you start sending the smaller helicopters back, you keep the bigger one because they can do their job plus his. Interviewer: Now, did you go into Kuwait at all yourself? �Veteran: No, I did not. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so how long then the does the squadron stay in Saudi Arabia? Veteran: We left in March of ’91. Interviewer: Okay. So, a couple months sort of after the action. Veteran: Yep. Yeah, right. Interviewer: Okay. And from there, is it back to California again? Veteran: Back to California to rebuild the aircraft. Then back…In all this time, I am still in maintenance control and sitting there and end up back in mountain warfare training with a couple aircraft for another stint. And then it was one more trip to Okinawa. And that’s when I took the battlefield tour, because I found out that my dad had fought there. It was a way to kind of connect, since I was so young when he passed. (1:34:29) Interviewer: Okay. And now with Okinawa, does your family stay back in California? Veteran: Yes. Yeah, because it is basically a 6-month debt. The aircraft stay there but they rotate the personnel. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: The basic policy was you go out for 6 months, you’re back for 12-18. And then you go out for another 6. Interviewer: Mhmm. Now, you’re getting towards the end of your enlistment though, so this trip is sort of your last. Is that your last one? Veteran: In fact, that—when I went to Okinawa, it wasn’t my last trip. �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: When I went to Okinawa, while we were there, the Stars and Stripe, which is the military paper for the bases in the far east, had an article about General Schwarzkopf announcing his retirement. A week later the next paper comes out and here’s General Colin Powell announcing his retirement. I’m like “Hmmm.” What do they know that I don’t? That was my thought. I don’t know if it meant anything but…So, I went up and put in my retirement package because once you reach 13 months, you can put in. and then I kind of thought “yeah, I think it’s time to retire” because the S1 clerk was actually born two weeks after I went to bootcamp. So, now I am thinking “yeah maybe it is time to retire, this kid wasn’t even around when I started.” But it wasn’t quite to be. I still had one more trip. Got back from Okinawa and we went to Somalia in December of ’92. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Operation Restore Hope. Interviewer: Alright, so to go out there, are you going to be in a carrier or…? (1:36:06) Veteran: We were land-based. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They did the same thing. We broke up aircraft, put them on C-5As, and we flew to Somalia. Interviewer: Okay. And what kind of facility or base did you have there? Veteran: Initially, we were at the port to get the aircraft built up. Eventually, we relocated out to the international airport, which really, aside from the buildings, didn’t really exist anymore with �everything that had gone on. But we were out there. We operated out of the international airport, or what was left of it. Interviewer: Okay, so what kind of facilities did you have there? Were you living in tents or…? Veteran: Yes. In fact, both in Desert Storm, Desert Shield in Somalia, above my tent flew the flag of the state of Michigan. It was presented to me by…My mom lived in Melvindale and the city councilman got it flown over the state capitol and then sent to me. So, I made sure to fly it. And I have pictures of it. Interviewer: Very good. Alright, and so what was going on…I mean, in Somalia, what are you seeing? What are you doing? Veteran: The first reason we were there was to help the Red Cross. The international Red Cross was having so much trouble getting aid to the people because of these warlords. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: They would hold them up for contraband. And by the time they would get in the country, they would have pretty much nothing left. So, our primary mission at first was to help the Red Cross do its job. And of course, when you’ve got Marine Cobra helicopters and Marine Humvees with machine guns, there wasn’t a whole lot of arguments from the warlords. We were able to start getting food out to the people. That was the main thing. I would, I don’t know if our job was to interfere with the warlords or that that was higher above my pay grade, I just took care of the aircraft. But I am sure there was other things we were supposed to do there but that was kind of obvious. The Red Cross needed that assistance. (1:38:06) �Interviewer: Okay. And were there people from other countries there? Veteran: Yes. In fact, on the other side of the airport was an Australian detachment. We used to trade our MRE meals. There was also a Sudanese…I am not sure, but they were to the south of us. In fact, they caught a couple of individuals trying to sneak in with weapons. So, they were kind of being a perimeter of security for all of us operating out of the airfield. I think it was—I don’t know, I am not 100% sure, but I think it was. And we met them a couple times. Met a couple others. Some Canadians. Interviewer: Okay. And were you there when the Black Hawk down incident took place or was that— Veteran: No, I wasn’t. We had already left by then. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so while you were there was it relatively quiet? Or not a lot of shooting going on? Veteran: There was an occasional incident. When we first got there, there was an incident where a local tried to rush the main gate with an old World War 2 rifle. Of course, you’ve got Marines there on the main gate. But he did actually hit the tail of one of the C5s so they had to stop him. They figure he was either on drugs or something, to do something that silly. But for the most part, most of the issues were out. I mean, no matter where you go, there’s going to always be some. Interviewer: Mhmm. And was that physically the worst assignment you had? Or was Saudi Arabia worse or…? �Veteran: That was the worst assignment. Anywhere else that we went, even Saudi Arabia, I did spend some time where we would have basically liberty. And you could see a little bit. And there was the local food. Obviously, you’re not going to try and eat local food there because there was no…anything, you lived on your MREs. And I think because it was so close to my retirement. And the fact that here is this—this country was just shambles. You got all of these warlords, and all they are doing is basically fighting each other and fighting their own people for their power. They didn’t care about anything else. (1:40:28) Interviewer: Okay. So, getting out and visiting the country is not really an option there? Veteran: No. You’re not…That would have probably been your death warrant, personally. Personal opinion. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, so when do you get out of Somalia then? Veteran: Got back in April of ’93. Interviewer: Okay. And then you retire? Veteran: July. Interviewer: Okay. So now you are sort of on the way out. Now, was this sort of standard for Marine Corps enlisted to serve 20 years if you’re going to be a career person? Or would people go longer than that? Veteran: It is kind of based on rank by DOD. Each rank—now, as a staff sergeant, 20 years is the max you are allowed. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: A gunny can go longer, which would…And then a master sergeant or first sergeant could go even longer. It’s not uncommon. A lot, especially if you spend it all in the fleet where you are gone a lot, like I was. It’s not uncommon. After 20 years, you’re kind of worn out. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, a lot of them would call it quits at that point. And then there’s others that some have stayed in only their 4 years, some have stayed in 8, some…Then one guy I knew, he was in for 15 years and called it quits. Each and—that’s an individual thing. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have prospects to go higher and get another promotion or did you…? Veteran: No, it— Interviewer: Or was that not really in line for you with what you were doing? Veteran: There was always the prospects, because you would go in front of the boards and they would review. I missed—I didn’t get it the first time. It—that happens. But again, the 20 years, I was kind of worn out. (1:42:08) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I’ll be honest about it. Interviewer: Alright. So, once you do get out, what do you do next? Veteran: Well, first off, coming back in April and then leaving in July, there wasn’t a lot of planning available. Interviewer: Right. �Veteran: But one—So, we were able to put our stuff out there in California in storage. Military put it in storage. And then we went cross country and ended up in Detroit, because that’s where my wife’s family and my mom were living. Kind of hit or miss. Now, luckily, of course you got out—had time once we got back. Now the job situation? There wasn’t a whole lot there. Not in the Detroit area. So, I was down in a Tennessee a couple times, because we thought about settling down there because most of my wife’s family is from Tennessee. Because that’s where she was born. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But one day I am looking in the papers, and there was quite a few jobs up in this area so I though, “Well, I’ll give it a shot.” So, I come up here for a couple days. Stayed at what was the Holiday Inn on Ann street, it’s now an independent. And I kind of liked it. I had never been here before. But I thought you know what, I better bring the family up. See what they think before I make this decision because this is going to be—and they liked it. And we stayed. And we have been here ever since. Interviewer: Okay, so who did you work for? Veteran: For the first couple of months, I worked for Spartan Foods at their warehouse. I was a security guard. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Then I went to work for Brinks. Armored car service. And I worked with them until I retired in 2015. Interviewer: Okay, so you didn’t go into anything aviation related or anything like that? �Veteran: No. I did work, I did eventually work my way up to their ATM manager, so I was dealing with electronics a lot. Interviewer: Okay. So, you worked up that way. Alright. And now to look back at your career in the service, I mean overall, what do you think you took out of that? Or how did that effect you? (1:44:07) Veteran: Well one of the big things, it gave me a perspective to look at both sides of a coin. You know, you go to these countries and you hear stories. Or even here in the states, you hear stories. But you only hear their side of the story. I kind of learned to see both sides of the coin. You know, you hear the person complaining about something and you hear the person that’s for that same thing that this person is against, but you kind of learn to be able to pull out the common denominators and see. Yeah, I understand what you’re saying, I understand what you are saying, but maybe we need to do this to make it work. And I think that was the biggest thing. And learning wherever you go, always visit and enjoy. You’ll be surprised how friendly people are. And I am not talking governments or tourist traps, I am talking get out. I think those are the two biggest things. Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for pretty good stories, so thanks for coming and sharing it today. Veteran: Yeah. You want to hear one good story, this is one that I have talked about a lot. Of course, we worked on the aircraft. They would have discrepancies. One of—a friend of mine, when they did the specializing, he ended up in the OV-10 squadron, observation squadron. And they had a pilot from a jet declare an emergency at the base we were at. Emergency landing. He was downing the airplane and he taxied over. I am not going to go into the whole story but �basically, when he wrote up the gripe and the avionics shop looked at it and they showed it to the maintenance officer, the pilot was in a little bit of hot water because he had written up that the radar altimeter on his jet would not work on inverted flight. (1:46:08) Interviewer: What does that mean? Veteran: The radar altimeter, it sends a radar signal from one antenna down to the ground to bounce up into another antenna to tell the jet how high off the ground he is. Inverted flight, he’s flying upside down. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We’re trying to find out what he planned to bounce that signal off of if he’s upside down. But that’s why the training. He—it wasn’t that he didn’t know what he was doing, it’s just he probably never paid attention before. And we had maintenance people that would make those kind of…You’d think “Well, that’s kind of dumb.” Well that’s why we train. Interviewer: Okay, so he really didn’t even know how his own system worked? So that if you are trying to bounce something off of the sky, maybe that doesn’t work so well. Veteran: Yeah. But that’s, there’s the reason we are training. And then the other thing I learned is don’t always assume or memorize. They actually taught us not to memorize things in the military, they taught us to use the manuals, use the books. He said the processes might not change. And one instructor spelled it out. He says “Okay, you got a rotor head. That rotor head holds 6 rotor blades. Each of those blades has 14 bolts, let’s say.” He said, “I am not going to give you exact numbers, I am just using this as an example. Now, let’s say according to the book, you have to torque each of those bolts a thousand foot-pounds, because its head is turning.” He says, “Okay, you memorize it. That’s how you do it every day, every day, every day. Now, a �year from now, the company that makes this aircraft realizes 1000 ain’t right. Maybe it’s supposed to be 2000, or maybe it’s supposed to be only 800, but you are still doing 1000. Now you are risking that crew and those troops’ lives. So, we were always taught to use books, to read, to pay attention. Not just to automatically do it. And I think those are the biggest things. Interviewer: Okay. Alright then. Thank you. Veteran: Thank you. This was interesting. (1:48:08) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ThrasherD2190V Title A name given to the resource Thrasher, David (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-08-12 Description An account of the resource Dave Thrasher was born on May 19th, 1953 in Detroit, Michigan. Thrasher joined the Marine Corps in 1973 and attended boot camp at the Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot in San Diego, California, where trained in aviation electronics and worked on the Marine Corps helicopters. After his training, he was deployed to Cambodia for Operation Eagle Pull and remained off the coast of Vietnam to aid in the evacuation effort. Thrasher also participated in joint operation Display Determination as well as efforts to rescue people escaping Cuba and Teamwork 88 military exercise in Norway. He was stationed in Somalia for both Desert Storm and Desert Shield before returning to California in April, 1993, leaving the service, and settling in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thrasher, David Ross Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c5bc38408379f9ec57e0b487f4b8697f.mp4 02650cafbe5da7bb7948d45613d08741 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4721587222fc1a272dff190177cd1662.pdf 0a2619031e0f531cd5c70f0a5b99018b PDF Text Text Tamburini, John Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: John Tamburini Length of Interview: (1:11:48) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay, John, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Interviewer: “In what year?” 1948. And moved to the town of Millstone in Somerset county. I resided in Millstone until my time of being drafted into the army. Interviewer: “Okay, and back up a little bit. What was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?” My mother was a homemaker, my father was a construction worker, and that was really it until the time I went into the service. Interviewer: “Okay. Did you finish high school?” Pardon? Interviewer: “Did you graduate from high school?” Yes, I did. Interviewer: “In what year did you graduate?” In 1966. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what did you do after graduating?” I went to a technical institute, and it was a two-year program. And during my two-year program, I would continue to go to the draft hall to find out where my number was, and when my number was getting closer and I started my second year, I really didn’t concentrate on my studies and was asked to leave. (1:12) I went out and bought a new car, and shortly after that, I got my draft notice, was drafted into the army, and gave the car to my brother. My younger brother. And was in the army in February of 1969. �Tamburini, John Interviewer: “Okay. Did you get the car back when you came back?” No, my brother kept it. Interviewer: “Oh, okay. All right. Where did you go for basic training?” Fort Dix, New Jersey. Interviewer: “Okay, and describe what basic training was like at that point.” Basic training was really—It’s funny because I trained with the—in Fort Dix in the winter of— February and March, which was kind of sort of different, knowing that I was going to be going to Vietnam probably. And we did force-marches through quite a few feet of snow and did our grenade qualifications and our rifle qualifications in the snow. Laying in the snow. (2:03) And then I left Fort Dix after my basic training, went home for a week, and then went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you were at Fort Dix, how much emphasis was there on discipline and following orders?” Quite a bit. It was quite a different change from civilian life going in there, and I thought that I was brought up in a pretty good household. And I had some—I would say—strict parents, but we were organized and not maybe regimented. But we had certain rules to follow, and I just thought I was a pretty good kid at that point until I got into the service. Then I saw a different side of life, and it was like, “You’re going to get your ass kicked.” And it kind of sort of straightened you out. Makes you a little bit more a man. Interviewer: “All right. Now did you understand at the time what they were doing?” Not really, no. I just knew that I was serving time and that I had to follow orders, and it was the military. And I knew I wanted to be a good soldier because I wasn’t about to disappoint my family and be discharged. And I was continuing to follow orders, and, again, I had the attitude to make the best of it. Interviewer: “Okay. Now the other guys that you were training with there—Did they take the same attitude, or did some of them have trouble?” I think they pretty much did. We pretty much stuck together as a group, and we knew that we were all in the same boat together if I could say that. And I guess we were all a little concerned what was down the road for us, knowing that Vietnam was going—Vietnam was active. And you didn’t really know what MOS you were going to really get, and basic training was really just basic. Interviewer: “All right. Yeah. How much did you know about Vietnam at that time?” �Tamburini, John Really nothing. I mean, other than—Maybe I shouldn’t say nothing. On Sunday night, I remember laying in the living room, and we used to watch the Honor Roll. And we used to watch who was killed in action, and I never really thought much outside the box other than, “Wow.” You know. “Somebody—A lot of people are getting killed in Vietnam.” Never thinking that I would set foot on that soil. (4:07) Interviewer: “Okay. All right, because you were saying—You used the term MOS, which is military occupational specialty.” Yeah, it’s a military—Yeah, occupation to service. Yes. Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, so you don’t know where you’re going to go, what you’re going to do. All right. Okay, and so then—But you’re now sent—Now they send you for advanced training in Fort Sill?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of training did you get there?” We not only got basic training, but we also learned about the Howitzers. We trained on the 105s, the 155s, the tanks, and other hand guns like grenade launchers, rifles, which was a M14, and we did field maneuvers. And that went on, you know, for another couple months. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re getting—In addition to the artillery training, which would be standard there, they’re also giving you some infantry training?” Yes, there also came hand-in-hand with that. Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, because the understanding is you might well wind up in Vietnam, and…” You needed both to survive. Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, and did they treat you any differently at Fort Sill than they did back at Fort Dix?” I think Fort Sill, Oklahoma was a little bit more rigid because I think they were trying to finetune you—if I could say that—for that career or for that MOS, and it was really a much more serious and concentrated—what can I say—job. That you had a responsibility. And there was a lot more to learn, especially, you know, learning all the artillery components and, you know, all about them. And, like I said, with the tanks, the 105s, the 155s, and, you know, the other handheld devices—grenade launchers, rifles—and even grenade throwing. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did they tell you anything at that point about Vietnam?” �Tamburini, John Yes, they did. As we got to the end of your advanced training, they basically brought you aside and said, “Listen. You have a very good chance of going to Vietnam as basically a Private E2.” Which is, I think, what would be our rank. “Or you can go to the NCO Academy, which you then—” Is a six-month academy. (6:03)You come out a Sergeant E5, but you were going to go to Vietnam, no questions asked. And you will serve time in Vietnam, so what I did at that time—I contacted my family and my—who is my wife today, my fiancée then. And I said to them—I says, “I think I want to go to Vietnam as a better soldier instead of going as an E2.” I said, “I think it’s better.” And, if there’s a bonus to it, you made more money, which was hardly anything. So I then went home on leave for a short period of time, went back to Fort Sill, and I did a six-month academy, which really fine-tuned me that much more beyond any expectation that I had. It was quite rigorous, very involved, and it was another eye-opener. And I thought that I was going to go to Vietnam as a good soldier, and if it wasn’t for that, I don’t think I would’ve come home alive. Interviewer: “Okay. What kinds of things were they teaching you then? The NCOSchool?” Well, it was more artillery but also a lot of advanced life-saving in respect that learning how to fight and also POW/MIA training, which was quite an eye-opener, and that was something I never thought I would experience. But it did, and I, again—The whole program made me a better soldier. Interviewer: “Okay, and did they have a leadership component to it?” Oh, yes, it did. Yeah, you had a platoon, and every time you rotated who was in charge of the platoon. And if you messed up, they let you know about it, and I did mess up one time when I left a whole battery—if I could say that—at attention for quite a while. And I paid for the—How could I say it? I paid the price for it because—And then I had to put my head in a bush and talk to the bush for a while, but, again, that was all part of the—I think, the mental. And not only, you know, the physical, but the mental. (8:03) You know, to see at what point you’re going to take it. Interviewer: “Okay. Now I know that with the infantry NCO-School one of the things that happened was after you did the training part, they sent you to work with a basic training unit or an AIT unit where you were one of the sergeants doing the training. Now did they do that for artillery, or was your six months all just training you?” No, we also had—We also had to be responsible for the other troops that are going into training in AIT or in the advanced training. Yeah, that was part of it. Interviewer: “Okay, so you did some of your sergeant stuff with them.” Yes, I was an acting sergeant when I was in even—I was an acting sergeant even in the Advanced Infantry Training after Fort Sill. Or even after Fort Dix. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, so you’ve been doing some of them all along, and now you do some more of it.” �Tamburini, John Right. I kind of sort of—I look back at it now, and when we first went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma—I don’t know how it happened, but I was designated as a—as a sergeant. And I—They give you a temporary sergeant patch to wear, and it was, at first, uncomfortable. But I said, “You know, it’s all part of learning about the leadership and the responsibility.” Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, so basically your approach is you’re going to do there, you’re going to go, you will do the best job you can, and you want to prepare yourself to do that as best you can.” That was correct. Yeah, and I wanted to go as a good soldier. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now when you complete the NCO Academy, do you get orders for Vietnam?” It was automatic. Yes, because I was part of the condition that when you signed those papers for the academy, that you were going to Vietnam. Interviewer: “Okay. Did you get to go home before you left?” Yes, for one week. Interviewer: “Okay. Now what was that like? You’re going back home, you’re not—You’re out of the military for a week, and now you know you’re going to Vietnam.” Pretty tough. (10:04) Interviewer: “Okay, because you’ve got—Now were you engaged to be married at that point or just had a girlfriend at that point, or…?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did your family view that? Because had your dad been in the military in World War II, or…?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so not easy. Okay. All right, so now how do they get you to Vietnam?” We flew from Newark Airport to, I believe, an airbase in Washington state. Interviewer: “Okay. So yeah, Travis, or—Yeah.” Yeah, and then that’s when you got changed. And then from there we went to, I think, Yokota Air Force Base in Japan and then from Yokota Air Force Base to Cam Ranh Bay. �Tamburini, John Interviewer: “Okay. What’s your first impression of Vietnam?” The smell. When they opened the door, I thought I’d put my head in somebody’s dirty underwear. I don’t know how else to describe it. I don’t know. Interviewer: “Well, there’s a lot of decaying vegetation and any number of other things making smells, but yeah, that’s a pretty common impression. All right. What did they do with you at Cam Ranh Bay?” They put you in a hooch for a couple hours, and then they arranged transportation for you in a— in a Chinook. And they took you to Camp Evans, which was up north. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did they take you—I mean, Cam Ranh Bay is a long way from Camp Evans. Did they maybe fly you to Camp Eagle or Phu Bai?” I remember going in a chopper. In a helicopter. Interviewer: “Okay, but was it a long helicopter ride?” (12:08) Not that I remember. No, it didn’t—It didn’t really stick in my mind it was long. Interviewer: “It’s possible that they flew you in a military transport to Da Nang or to Phu Bai or someplace, but…” Maybe Phu Bai, but I do remember landing— Interviewer: “But you got—But you know you went to Camp Evans in a Chinook.” Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, I did go to Camp Evans. Interviewer: “All right, and how do they deal with the new arrivals then when you get there?” Well, I guess it was reality that this is real. You’re in South Vietnam now, you’re having your exposure to the environment, and the first night I was there I had to pull guard duty. And that was a little nerve-wracking, and I could swear that some of the trees grew feet when you’re working—when you’re on guard duty. Interviewer: “Okay. Did they—At this point, did you know what unit you were joining, or…?” I believe I—Yeah, I was with the 101st at that point, and then obviously I was with the 2nd of the 319th Artillery. And we stayed at Camp Evans, and then it was that following morning that they took me to my first firebase, which was Firebase Jack. �Tamburini, John Interviewer: “Okay, so now the 101st sometimes did an orientation for the new arrivals. The Screaming Eagle Replacement Training. The SERTS training. Did you not do that?” I don’t remember that. Interviewer: “Well, if the next day you went to your unit, then you didn’t.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but you’re an artillerist, so that might be different than it would be for the infantry guys.” It might be. But they sent me right to an artillery base. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, so Firebase Jack. Now describe what that base was like. What kind of—What country was it in, and what did it look like?” (14:03) It was in the lower land—the lower lying land—and there was a very well, I guess, fortified—if that’s the right name—firebase. It was somewhat established by the time I got there, and it was a very well-arranged firebase. And I went, and that was really my first assignment. To go there. And then that’s when I met, you know, my commanding officer. Interviewer: “Okay, and talk a little bit about him.” He—The commanding officer was an E7, and he basically gave me a gun and responsibility. And I had a crew. It was already there obviously, and they were in country a while. And they taught me some things, and we got to learn each other’s ways and everything. Interviewer: “Okay, so you said commanding officer. You basically meant the—a battery’s top sergeant?” Yes, yes. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, but he assigns you to a gun crew. You join the gun crew. How do the guys in the gun crew that you join treat you?” Very well. We got along quite well. Very easily. You know, we got along because, you know, I just wanted to be a part of their team. And here they’re already in country, and I respected their knowledge and what they had. And we got to work together. Interviewer: “All right. Now how many men were in that gun crew when you joined it?” I believe in my initial Howitzer section I had five. Myself and four others. Interviewer: “All right. Now when you were back at Fort Sill, what was the official size of a Howitzer crew supposed to be?” �Tamburini, John Typically four or five. Interviewer: “Okay, so you—So you were full strength?” Yeah, probably. Yes. Yeah, you had your gunner, your assistant gunner, and then you had a couple guys that would hump ammo. So you got four and then five. You have typically five. Interviewer: “Okay. I guess, because sometimes gun crews would be under strength when they’re in the field.” Yeah. Interviewer: “All right, but at this point you’re full up.” We had a—We had a good crew. (16:09) Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then how quickly do you start—Were you firing the piece right away, or was it quiet at Jack for a while?” We had fire missions every day and every night. You know, firing on enemy positions. There was always activity. Interviewer: “Okay, and so now what month was this that you made it to Vietnam?” I believe it was February. February, I believe, is when it’s time. Yeah, I’d have—Yeah, it was February that I went into country. Yes. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, and then how long did you stay at Jack that first time do you think?” I believe we stayed at Jack about a month and a half maybe. Two months. And then we went to Firebase Gladiator. We fired onto that location to secure that hill, and then we moved from Firebase Jack to Firebase Gladiator. Interviewer: “Okay. Now how was the Gladiator different from Jack?” Jack was basically a low-lying firebase at the foothills, whereas Gladiator was really just a mountaintop with a severe grade on each side. And that’s where we joined up with the 155 Howitzers on the—We were on the top section of Gladiator with the 105s, and the 155s are down lower. But, again, Gladiator was a very tight firebase with very little room to move. Interviewer: “Okay. I guess, you have pictures of it, and it looks basically like a fairly—like kind of a long, narrow hilltop with only a limited amount of flat space to put gun positions on.” �Tamburini, John Yes, yes. Interviewer: “All right, and what kind of protection did you have?” As far as…? Interviewer: “Either other troops or physical defenses.” (18:01) No, we had ourselves and just the troops that we had on Firebase Jack, and that was really it. And then, you know, the 155s. Interviewer: “Okay, but was there an infantry unit that was guarding it at that point, or…?” Not to my knowledge. No. No, it was just us. Interviewer: “Okay, so did you have to do—Did you have perimeter—Did you have guard duty as well as manning guns?” Yes, that’s one thing we did. Yeah, I did guard duty every night, and that’s one thing that I did do. Is I let the guys sleep as long as they could. And we typically had a fire mission like two o’clock in the morning or three o’clock in the morning on suspected enemy locations. And then it went right into the normal workday—if you want to call it that—or the normal routine. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now you come in as a sergeant. Are you taking over a gun crew right away or quickly?” Yes. Just took one over right away. Interviewer: “Okay, so you come in. You’re sort of the new guy. Okay, so you come in, you’re the new guy, you’re giving orders to these other guys, but they’ve all been there already.” That’s right. Interviewer: “What kind of relationship did—How did you approach that?” Well, I think it was a very—It was a very smooth transition, and we got along. And I don’t remember anything whatsoever where we had any conflict, any differences, or anything, and we just meshed together. And I never really—Regardless of the fact that I went over as a sergeant, I didn’t put myself above them. I knew I had more responsibility as a sergeant, but I didn’t put myself above them because we were all in the same situation—if I can say that—or same—We were there for the same, common mission. Interviewer: “Okay. Did you find that there were things about just ways of doing things there that were different from what you were trained to do?” �Tamburini, John Yes, definitely. It’s a—Yeah, some of the things were—Training was one thing, and you learned a lot of the basics and the procedures. (20:09) But when you went there, your procedures changed, and your routine changed as far as like doing a fire mission or what you did because there was no way that they could ever—I don’t think there was no way they could ever create that condition to one hundred percent stateside. You know, just for what you’re dealing with, the way the battery’s set up, the entire battery. Interviewer: “Okay, and—I don’t know—were there physical conditions or environmental things that made it harder to maintain the guns, or…?” Well, because, you know, you had the high humidity and the rain, but also—Yeah, I think that was really—You know, the humidity, the rain, the heat. You know, that affected you. Again, a different routine. You’re dealing with a total battery. You now have six guns versus twenty on one. It’s different procedures. You know, you can learn everything—We learned a lot stateside, but when you go into a complete, full war type of zone, it was different. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and while you were on Gladiator, did you have that first time—I mean, did you have any North Vietnamese trying to probe the perimeter, or did you get attacked at all?” No, we didn’t. Not on Gladiator. But we were very, very close to the jungle itself. I mean, we were right there. I mean, right on the edge. But we were fortunate. Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t get mortar attacks or anything like that?” Nothing. Not that I remember. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now while you’re out there, do you have any real sense of what’s going on anyplace else?” (22:02) Not really because at that point we—Because of the guns and the firepower we had, I created a sense of security—if I could say that—and we were like invincible. You know, here we have all the big guns, we’re invincible, we have the rifles, we have everything, and we can kick anybody’s ass. And you just created a—You had a—You created a sense of security within yourself, and you feel comfortable with the guys that you’re with. And we had good leadership. Interviewer: “Yeah. Now who’s your battery commander at this point?” Captain Rich. Interviewer: “Okay, and tell me a little bit about him.” Captain Rich was a—He came from the 1st Cavalry Division and quite a wiry guy. Very active but very supportive and very involved with the troops. And he was out there with you in the thin �Tamburini, John and the thick of it, and I had a lot of respect for him. And he just added to the whole group, you know, and he just kept everybody going. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when a fire mission gets called—gets ordered—what’s sort of your procedure? What do you do if you say, ‘Okay, we have a fire mission.’ Now what happens?” Well, I was primarily a gunner, and a gunner will set the azimuth of the gun. And then you have an assistant gunner who will set the elevation of the gun, and then you have a guy that’s going to be loading the breech. And he’s going to be responsible for cutting the bags of ammo because you have different charges. You have a charge of one through nine, and you also have different type of—different types of heads that you put on the artillery shells whether it’s a time delay fuse or whatever. (24:04) And that’s what—You get those commands, and then it was my responsibility to be the—to be the gunner. That all these commands were followed. And those commands came down from FDC. Interviewer: “Which is Fire Direction Control.” Yes, yes. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so they’re giving you specific coordinates and settings and…?” They’re giving you—They’re giving you azimuth, which is the direction of the gun. They’re giving you elevation, which is the height of the gun. They’re giving you charge, which is the distance that your artillery shell will go. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and then how rapidly could you fire that gun?” It all depended upon your forward observer—how he wanted it fired—because you would do like a—Let’s say a location round, and then he would—He would adjust that. Whether he would walk it in or walk it out or make it go to the left or make it go to the right for the—You know, for the enemy positions. Interviewer: “Okay, but would there be points when the idea was to simply fire as many shells as possible at a particular target?” I think that’s when you had a good enemy target, and you were on the enemy. Then it would be like all hell breaks loose. Then you just fire as fast as you can. Interviewer: “And then how many rounds per minute do you think you could get off?” Hard to say because you’ve got to hump them, you’ve got to cut the bags of ammo, you’ve got to load them. Probably quite a few. I mean, per minute? That’s hard. I can’t remember, but, I mean, we would—We would do it. �Tamburini, John Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you now—You’re on Gladiator for a while, but at this point the firebase at Ripcord is getting established. And there’s operations going on around it, and then is that your next stop?” Yes, it was. Interviewer: “Okay. How do they get you from Gladiator to Ripcord?” (26:01) With a helicopter. With a crane. It what’s called a crane—like a helicopter where the Howitzer was hung in the middle—and that’s how we got transported. That’s how we got transported from Jack to Gladiator. Interviewer: “Okay, so they have sort of the Skycrane helicopters that’ll carry the artillery pieces, and then you ride in other helicopters?” Yes. Yeah, we ride the Hueys. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you got to Ripcord, were there positions already established for your guns that they got dropped in, or did you have to build them?” We had to build them. We had to build all the—We had to build the entire base for the—for the artillery pieces. Interviewer: “All right, so what did that involve?” Quite a bit as far as like establishing an ammo bunker again, establishing a perimeter. The ammo was the most important thing. The ammo got protected first before you protected yourself, and— Which was kind of sort of, “Okay, why are we doing that?” But that was part of the procedure, and once you’d got your ammo protected, then you could build on protecting yourself or your people who are with you. And that’s really how Firebase Ripcord grew because we kept growing—You know, because of the amount of ammunition, we had to make our ammo bunkers much larger. Interviewer: “Okay. Now this was a pretty—Basically, you’re on top of a small mountain there. It’s a big piece of rock. Did you have engineers helping you blast out holes, or were you doing all this yourself?” No, just—We really—When we landed the gun there, it was really less like a—like a rocky, sandy soil type of thing, and that’s where, you know, once—When they put your gun in, that was it. You didn’t do anything. Interviewer: “Okay. You just build around it?” No, your gun just sat there. The only thing you built around it was your ammo bunkers. �Tamburini, John Interviewer: “Okay, but was there no kind of protection for the gun crew, or were you totally exposed?” The gun was totally exposed. (28:01) Yeah, we had no protection to the gun. Just the ammo. The ammo was more important. Interviewer: “All right, and then did you have—create sleeping holes or bunkers or anything like that?” The sleeping holes were on the side of the hill, and you crawled into a culvert, which was a makeshift shelter, and that’s how you slept. Or you slept on top of the ammo, which is more protected. Which I’ve done. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re inside the ammo bunker. There’s something above you.” There were sandbags. Yeah, so you had some type of—You know, some type of protection. Interviewer: “Okay. When did you arrive on Ripcord do you think?” I believe it was May. Later on in May. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and at that point now there are infantry units kind of patrolling around the area and looking for enemy and occasionally finding them, but the fighting hadn’t gotten really intense yet. But did you still have a lot of fire missions?” Yes, we did. We did, and we had a—Again, being a sergeant, and every night we had our meeting about what was going on as far as like enemy activity or basically what we’re looking for within the next couple days. But we did have a lot of fire missions. We fired—We fired every day. Hundreds of rounds every day on potential sites. Interviewer: “Okay. Now before the beginning of July, which is when the sort of siege starts or whatever, was it pretty quiet in the sense that you weren’t getting shot at, or were there mortar rounds or rockets that would ever come in?” No, again, it was really—I kind of sort of become complacent—if that’s the right word—because here we went from Firebase Jack to Gladiator to Ripcord, and I thought that we—Excuse my French, but I thought we could kick anybody’s ass. (30:03) And, you know, we were—We were powerful, you know, and we could do anything. And every night—Because I was a sergeant, I had to go to a briefing every night, and they would tell you what the—You know, what kind of activity was going on and what to look for. And nothing really was really, you know, jumping out at you until the end of June. Interviewer: “Okay, and then right about at July 1st, you—The base starts to take mortar rounds.” �Tamburini, John Yeah, we had a meeting the last day in June, and they said that there’s a lot of enemy activity in the area and that we should be expecting some type of activity within the next day or so. And I went back, and I told my guys what’s going on. And I said, “You know, there’s going to be some activity.” And the first round came in about, I guess, 6:30, seven o’clock on July 1st, and then I realized that this is war. This is real. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did the—How close—So the—Were they using mostly mortars at this point? Was it mortar rounds coming in, or were there rockets, or…?” It was hard to say whether they were mortars or shells—you know, like an artillery shell— because there was just so much of it. You really couldn’t investigate the hole, I guess you could say, because, I mean, it was—I mean, it was blowing—It was blowing stuff everywhere. Interviewer: “Okay. Now you said that your gun was basically in an exposed position. Did the position take any hits, or did they always miss you?” No, it didn’t—Up until about July 6th or July 7th, it missed me, and then that’s when an incoming round came in. And it blew me back, and it happened so fast that when I—When I woke up, Captain Rich was standing over me, and he says, “Are you okay?” And I says, “I don’t know what happened.” Because I blanked out. (32:14) And he says, “You’ve got to get up. You’ve got to get back to your gun. You’ve got to get back on the gun.” And he says—And I was still dazed because I got—I got hit with an incoming round. And I went back, and I went back to the gun and continued fighting, not realizing that I was hit. And then that’s why—Well, I got awarded the Purple Heart, but I didn’t realize it at that time. Interviewer: “So it was shrapnel or rocks or something?” Yeah, it was shrapnel or—Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, but not enough to actually slow you down, or…?” Not enough to—No, it was—It was—I had the ability to go back and keep going. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you have—Did a medic check you out later, or figure out if you were hit anywhere, or…?” Yeah, they did. I was hit, you know, mostly in my—in my arms and my hands and stuff, and there was like, you know, this—the bleeding obviously and—But I went back and continued, you know, with your—with the gun. Interviewer: “Okay. Now on the night of July 1st or in the very early morning on the 2nd, one of the line companies—Charlie Company—got hit on Hill 902, which was nearby. Now do you remember anything about that night, or was that not something your battery—You might have been too close even to support 902.” �Tamburini, John Yeah, I don’t remember that because, again, it seems like you’re—You almost had like tunnel vision because you were focused on your gun and your battery and what—You were trying to protect the perimeter and do your own fire missions. That’s—I mean, I didn’t really—I didn’t realize, you know, the other activity on the other hills except for Ripcord. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. You just—You just point the gun where they tell you to point it and fire and just do that, and now were there occasions when you could actually sort of look out or see tracer fire or artillery shells landing in other places or air strikes? I mean, would you ever be a spectator to the battle, or were you always just at the gun?” I was always at the gun because we—You had to stay at the gun because the amount of firing that you did, and you really had to make sure that you had enough artillery shells. You were humping artillery all day, and you were firing all day. (34:14) And you were even firing at night. Again, we started fire missions like two o’clock in the morning, and we would fire for a couple hours. And then come daybreak I would get the guys up, you know, because there’s only two of us at night that fired. And the other guys would be sleeping. Interviewer: “Were there occasions when you would have everybody up at night if there was a—You had to support a unit in the field, or…?” I don’t really remember having everybody up at night. Just myself and another fellow. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now we—I guess, what was—Before the sort of—the siege— Before July, what was sort of daily life like on the hilltop?” You—You were either preparing artillery shells, you know, for your next fire mission, or you were filling sandbags. And just really your normal activity, and that’s what your—That’s what your day consisted of. You know, pumping artillery shells, getting them out of the boxes, taking care of the Howitzer, and, again, just doing your fire missions. There wasn’t a day that you didn’t have several fire missions. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. What did you do for food?” C-rations and whatever package you can get from home, and then, if you were lucky, you got a hot meal. Interviewer: “Would they deliver a hot meal to the firebase occasionally, or…?” Yes. Yes, they did. Yeah. Firebase Jack was more of a—You got more hot meals—I guess you could say—out of a canteen or out of a cooler than you did at Gladiator or Ripcord because of its proximity to the camp. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, and so now once the siege gets going, then it was— You couldn’t really move around. You wouldn’t leave the gun position very much at all?” �Tamburini, John We—Well, we obviously—I think if I follow you correctly, our guns stayed in the same location, but our fire missions were on any type of enemy location that was called in. (36:08) And it got to the point where we were actually using the Howitzer as a rifle, and we were sighting down the gun tube on—We could actually see to—I guess it would be the south of us—where the enemy was actually running around, and they’re running around the hills. And we would direct fire on them, and they were just like ants. They would come out of one hole, go back in another hole, and that just went on every day. Interviewer: “Okay. Now your battery doesn’t—has a major crisis during the course of that siege. Can you talk about that? What happens to you?” As far as the—When it came time to the end? Interviewer: “Well, there’s the helicopter crash.” That’s—That was a Chinook that was bringing in the ammo in the sling, and he would always drop it off in front of my gun. And I would always go down, and he would unhook it. And I would talk to the guy laying in the belly of the Chinook, and, well, he would always, you know, say something to me. Or I’d, you know—You know, just talk to each other for a second or two, and then he would take off. Well, that one particular day—I think it was later on in July—the Chinook came in. I was down there. He unloaded the ammo, let the sling go, and the Chinook was starting to take off and got about forty feet above the ammo bunker. And it took on fire on a tail piece, and I could see the flames coming out of the tail piece of the Chinook. And I could see it starting to struggle, and the blades—You could just see it struggling, and it wasn’t getting altitude. And then, all of a sudden, the ship came down, and the guy that was in the belly of the Chinook fell out. (38:08) And the ship landed on him and pinned his leg to the top of the ammo bunker, and I went down there. And I talked to him, and he wanted me to cut his leg off because he couldn’t get out. And I says, “I can’t cut your leg off. I’m not a medic.” And when I says, “I’ll go get a medic—” And when I went to go get the medic, which is around the side of the base, and I came back, the whole ship was engulfed in flames. And that was it. I couldn’t do anything, but that’s—That’s what happened. Interviewer: “Okay, and now you’ve got a burning helicopter on top of an ammo bunker and a load of ammo right there, so now what happens?” It was the beginning of the end. The beginning of the end is that we knew that at this point that we had to abandon whatever we could. Well, do whatever we could do, and it got to the point where Captain Rich then said, “We have to—” He called my gun out, and he said, “You’ve got to put an incinerator grenade down your gun tube.” So I popped the incinerator grenade, and I put it down the gun tube. And it melted the breechblock they got inside, and they couldn’t use it against us. And then that was really a lot of the beginning. That was the beginning of the end. Interviewer: “Okay, but was the ammunition now blowing off? I mean, was it—Were you—” Well, we had to fire—Yeah, the Chinook was on top of the ammo bunker. �Tamburini, John Interviewer: “Yeah, because that blows up.” Yes, it does. Interviewer: “Okay, and then basically that now—Did that damage your gun already, or was the gun not affected by the blast, or…?” Oh, yeah, well, the gun wasn’t damaged by the blast. The gun was damaged by Captain Rich telling me to put the incinerator grenade down the tube. (40:02) Interviewer: “Okay, so the expectation was that—I guess, at this point why were you doing—I guess I’m not sure I understand why you would be destroying the gun if the gun itself hadn’t been damaged yet, and you still hold the hilltop.” Well, because we’re being—I think at that point I think we knew that—If I—We had really—I think it was just a lot of chaos, and I think there was—At that point the organization maybe fell apart if I could say that, and we just knew that there wasn’t much more we could do because the ammo bunker started to go up. Interviewer: “Yeah, and if the ammo bunkers blow up, then wouldn’t that damage the guns, or…?” It would. It would. It was right in front of the gun. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so this is before the ammo bunker blows up. You actually already damage—destroy the gun?” If I remember that, yes. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and you think that was happening at the other gun positions at the same time, or…?” Well, Captain Rich was with my gun, and he stayed right with my gun until the end. Interviewer: “Okay, and when the ammo starts to cook off, do you get out of there and find a place to take cover, or…?” Yeah, we—We had to basically just defend ourselves the best we could, and then I think that was probably around the nineteenth of July. Interviewer: “Yeah, I think the eighteenth is the day that the crash—The helicopter crash. But yeah, and the base gets abandoned on like the twenty-third. So—And because you’re artillery, battery, what gets hit—affected that way—That had a lot to do with it. But okay, so now that—Now that that’s happened and your battery’s not there, what happens to you?” �Tamburini, John I leave because, you know—Because, again, we’re starting to—We’ve lost all—I don't’ want to say sense of—How can I put it? Like chain of command. It was quite chaotic, and basically it was like a—You’ve got to run for your own life, and people, you know—People were just going wherever they could to find shelter, and then that’s when I—That’s when I knew that we were being overrun, and I knew that I had to get—I’ve got to get away from the gun, and I had to get to another safer location. (42:19) And then that’s when—I had lost everything that I had, and I low crawled from where my gun position was to the other side of the base towards the A Shau Valley side. And I went over the side of a hill, and I found an opening. And when I looked in the opening, I saw a set of eyes in the back of the opening, and I figured this is it. This is—This is going to be my grave, and I said—At that point I had nothing left in me anyhow because we were taking on tear gas, and I was throwing up. I couldn’t throw up anymore. And then I went, and I found this hole. And in the back of this hole there was these two eyes, and I went, “Hello. G.I.?” And he goes, “G.I.” And I went in there, and I stayed in there for a while. I believe it was until the next morning. I don’t know who he was. I don’t know his name. I know he was a G.I., and it was just—We were just being overrun at this point. Just—It was complete chaos. Interviewer: “Okay, but there’s not enemies storming up the hill. You’re just running— There’s just confusion on top of the hill.” There was confusion, but there was also still incoming coming in. Yeah, and, you know, basically there was no—There was no organization at that point. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re there overnight, and then in the morning, do you go look out to see what’s happening? Or does someone come find you?” Well, I realized that—Come morning I realized that everybody’s being taken off the base on the other side of the—of Ripcord, and I knew I had to get over there to get—to get taken off of there. (44:05) And so what I did was when I thought that it was clear enough for me to get over there, I low crawled to the other side of the firebase and then got on a chopper, and I was taken back to Camp Evans. Interviewer: “All right, and then did you find—Was the rest of the battery kind of already there, or…?” We kind of sort of put everybody together. I know I met Captain Rich. I guess we met somebody other—I don’t remember how many of the other guys were there at that point, but we kind of sort of put our group back together if I could say that, got a new set of orders or a new sense of direction, stayed—I think we stayed at Camp Evans one day, and then the next day we went down to Firebase Bastogne. Interviewer: “Okay. Now were there guns there for you to use, or did you—they have to fly in new guns, or…?” They flew new guns in for us. Yeah. �Tamburini, John Interviewer: “Okay. Now Captain Rich at some point gets hit. Was that the end of Ripcord, or was that…?” Captain Rich got hit on Ripcord. He didn’t get hit on Bastogne. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so he went back, or he was back on Ripcord. Because I think he was wounded pretty badly.” He was wounded supposedly—He was wounded several times. Some of the stories that I’ve read about him he was wounded five times, but I do know that on Firebase Ripcord—I know that he was hit a couple times. Maybe three times. Interviewer: “Okay, but you remember him being back at Evans when you came back?” Yes. Yeah, we were—We were all there. Interviewer: “All right. Now—And then did he join you at Bastogne, or was he hit on Ripcord and then gone, or…?” Pardon? Interviewer: “Was—Did he go—Did he join you at Bastogne, or was he wounded badly enough that he didn’t come back?” No, he was—He was—He stayed active. Captain Rich stayed active as well. Yeah, we—Yeah, he stayed active as well with me or with the group. With the platoon. And, like I said, we met back at Camp Evans. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, but then you didn’t really get any time to—You didn’t really get any time off there.” (46:02) No, no. I got time off for maybe a half a day, maybe a day, and then we were back out to Bastogne. Interviewer: “All right. Now what was Bastogne like?” Not so much on a hilltop. If I remember correctly, we weren’t there very long. It was kind of sort of like a—I want to say like a mild terrain, but it wasn’t like Ripcord or Gladiator. It was a more low-lying type of area—not a severe hilltop—but it was elevated. Interviewer: “Okay, and was it a well-established base?” The part we had, no. No, we had established that base. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and did you get regular fire missions from there?” �Tamburini, John Yes, we did. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, and then about how long do you think you stayed there?” I think we stayed there about a month. Month and a half. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you recall if that base ever got either attacked or probed while you were there?” No, we didn’t. No. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now by the time you—Now while you’re at Bastogne, was the monsoon starting yet, or would that come later?” I think it might have started then. Interviewer: “Because you’ve got—You’ve got pictures of a Howitzer in the mud.” I—Yeah, that might be at Bastogne, or that’s early parts of Jack. Going back to Firebase Jack. Where we went back to Firebase Jack again. Interviewer: “Okay, and then is Jack where you spent the last part of your tour?” Yes, that’s where it was. Interviewer: “Okay. Now once you get back to Jack, is it any quieter than it had been before, or do you still have the same number of fire missions?” Yeah, we did. We did have—But—We did have the fire missions but not as intense as Gladiator and Ripcord. Not as many, but we did have them. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you think more of them might have been harassment and interdiction, or were there more routine kinds of fires as opposed to defending a unit or something?” I’m sorry. What— Interviewer: “Well, do you think—Well, there are different kinds of fire missions, and some of them are simply checking ranges or firing harassment and interdiction.” (48:02) I think all were enemy locations because all the fire missions we did were enemy locations that were called in. Yeah, I don’t think we ever did any like—Maybe if you want to call them harassment maybe—I never really thought of it that way or heard of it, but we always did fire missions that were called in from the— �Tamburini, John Interviewers: “Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s probably the kind of thing that the fire direction control people know about. You know, is this kind, this kind. But they’re just telling you, ‘Go fire x number of rounds at this place.’” Yeah, because all our directions came from the fire direction center. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now did you get any time off? Did you get any R&R or anything like that?” When I initially went there, I wanted to go to—I forget the name of the place. Anyhow, I had two choices—Hawaii or someplace else—and I didn’t choose Hawaii. And I didn’t choose— And I choose the other—I chose the other place, and as I got more involved, I felt more of a responsibility to the men. And I passed up on the R&R completely, and I said to myself, “I think if I ever get a taste of civilian life after being here—” I don’t think I would’ve went back. I would’ve went back probably, but it would’ve been very difficult. Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t—But you did get at least one bit of recreation in because you went to a Bob Hope show, right?” Yeah. One day. Interviewer: “Okay, and so was that around Christmastime, or…?” Yeah, it was The Bob Hope Show. I mean, I guess it had to be. Yeah. I didn’t—Everything was a—Your time element is a blur. You know, there is no—That’s one thing I thought of. There’s no Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday—There’s no—You don’t stop on Sunday because it’s a day of worship. You—There’s—That’s one thing that I’ve got to say. There was no— There was no days. You didn’t know whether it was Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Thursday, Tuesday—All you knew is the sun came up, and the sun went down. Interviewer: “All right, so where was The Bob Hope Show?” Camp Eagle. Interviewer: “Okay, so Phu Bai. All right, and what do you remember about that?” I could hardly see anybody because I was so far back. (50:02) I saw—I knew he was up there, and I forget who he was with. You know, he was with another singer. Interviewer: “Could you hear anything at least, or…?” Could I see? Interviewer: “Or could you hear anything?” �Tamburini, John No, no, because your ears are—Your ears are ringing because of all of the artillery fighting that you’re doing. Like even right now my ears are ringing. I mean, and that’s why I, you know—I have a bad hearing loss. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, but it was a day doing something different from normal.” Yes. Yes, it was. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right, and now when you got toward the end of your tour, were you keeping a short-timer’s calendar, or…?” Yes, I was, and I did have it marked off. My fiancée or who’s my wife today has sent me one, and I was marking it off. And I guess I got down to maybe the last two weeks or three weeks. You know, I’d mark down the days, and then, all of a sudden, I had a nice notice that I can go home early. So I left Firebase Jack and went back, had my re-up speech, which I didn’t take. They were going to give me another stripe, which I didn’t take. I would’ve been an E6 probably making $370 a month instead of 315, but no, I wanted to go home. Interviewer: “All right, so what’s the process for getting you home?” From Firebase Jack to Camp Evans, Camp Evans to Cam Ranh Bay, Cam Ranh Bay on a jet to Fort Lewis, Fort Lewis with a change of clothes and your uniform and… Interviewer: “Okay. What was it like flying out of Vietnam? They put you on a plane. You’ve got pictures, so what was going on?” (52:08) First of all, I think, disbelief that it was over. Interviewer: “Because you said when you got on the plane, the lights were out.” There were no lights on. It was complete darkness. You couldn’t see your hand in front of your face. They paraded you—more or less—down this walkway onto this plane. You sat in a plane that was completely dark. No lights, no nothing. Nothing. And the next thing you know the plane is taking off, and it’s taxiing down the runway. Again, no lights, no nothing. No blinker lights on the plane. And we get to—I guess it was some kind of elevation, and then, all of a sudden, the lights come on. And it’s party time, and you’re going home. Interviewer: “All right, and was there a party in effect, or were people quiet? Or how did people behave?” No, I think—I think everybody was really happy. Well, they were, but you think about—You think about who you left behind. Interviewer: “So you’re there, you’re just on the plane, and you’re just sort of thinking about whatever.” �Tamburini, John You’re—I think it’s almost like you’re in shock. It’s over. It’s behind you. (54:00) It’s over. It’s behind you. You have second thoughts of what you left behind. Interviewer: “Was it hard to leave the men from your crew?” What’s that? Interviewer: “Was it hard to leave your men behind you?” Yeah, it was because you—You were—You were really a family. You had a common—You had a common bond, you know, even though, you know, there are differences and everything. You had a common bond, and you developed a friendship. But you had a good working relationship. Again, like I was, you know, being a sergeant and stuff. Yeah, but I felt like I was one of the guys. I didn’t, you know, push around my rank. Interviewer: “Okay. Now the way Vietnam worked, people would go, and they would stay for a year. And so over the course of your year, you would’ve gone from being the new guy to the old guy, and the men in your crew would’ve been all ones who came in after you did.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did your crew take any casualties, or did you lose anybody for— Other than just rotating out?” Well, we lost the one sergeant—an E7—on Ripcord. Yeah, he was—He was a lifer. That one sticks in my mind the most. There might have been other casualties that, again— Interviewer: “But not from your crew.” No, no. Interviewer: “All right. Yeah. Okay, so yeah. So basically that’s a situation where, you know, by the time—I mean, you knew everybody, and they all knew you. And you were that kind of group.” You—Yeah, you constantly—The thing that, you know—that I remember is that when I went over there, I had a group or—You know, group—Crew of guys. And then in that group obviously some of them were there already seven months, eight months. Some of them—They were there two months, and they would rotate out. (56:09) And then it also seemed like, you know, when we did one move to another move, you know, they would change. They would maybe go to a different battery section, or they would go to a different Howitzer section. But Captain Rich always tried to keep every Howitzer section manned properly, and, you know, I can only say that I can only remember really having, I think, one or two guys with me the longest period of time, which was maybe six months because there was always a rotation. It’s not that you went in with a group and stay with that group for that whole tour. �Tamburini, John Interviewer: “And when new guys came in, how did you treat them?” The new guys? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Oh, well, I think I tried to keep everybody as an equal, but I also tried to stress to them that, you know, it’s war. And, you know, not to go backwards here, but to go back to Firebase Ripcord— Because it had so many casualties, somehow they shipped in three guys from the back from Camp Evans that had no experience, and they were in the gun—The gun crew behind me. The gun pit behind me. And we had an incoming round come in, and that incoming round went off. And I said to the guys—I says, “Don’t go looking for souvenirs.” And I said, “There’s another shell behind it.” And they didn’t listen to me, and wouldn’t you know that there’s another artillery shell coming in behind it and killed all three of them. It virtually took their faces off. It killed all three of them like in a split-second, and I can—I can still picture that to this day. And I said, “Don’t go looking—Don’t go looking for souvenirs.” (58:00) But, I mean, that was the faces of what we were up against. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so now you fly back to the States. Now is your enlistment basically up at this point? Do they let you out of the army when you get back to the States, or…?” Yes, yes. They gave me my papers at Fort Lewis, Washington. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you went home, did you encounter any protestors anyplace, or did you hear about them?” Yeah. Yeah, my own cousin. You know, and I guess he had different thoughts, and it got to the point where I kind of sort of had a fight with him if I could say that. Interviewer: “But on the trip back like when you’re at the airports or things like that, you didn’t see anybody?” No, no. Interviewer: “Did you fly home in uniform, or did you change clothes?” Yeah, I flew home in uniform. Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, because sometimes people had problems, and sometimes they didn’t. So—But you were fine. Okay, and now once you get back home, what do you do?” Kind of sort of go into a cocoon. I didn’t sleep in bed for probably—maybe about five weeks, six weeks. I slept on the floor. Didn’t go back to work. Basically, just hung out. I couldn’t sleep in a �Tamburini, John bed because I didn’t feel comfortable. I needed something hard to sleep on. And then I kind of sort of went back to work part-time and got back into routine a little bit more. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of work were you doing?” Back then I was doing engineering and surveying, but yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Is that what you had trained for when you were in college, or is it just something you—Did you learn it somewhere?” No, I went—After high school, I went into what they called a building construction technology course, which we talked about, but when I was there, I was working part-time at an engineering firm. (1:00:14) And then when I got back, I went back to work for that engineering firm. Interviewer: “All right, and did you stay with them or move around, or…?” I stayed with them, and then I felt that I wanted to do something different. I wanted to be outside more for some reason, and then I went to another engineering firm who put me outside because I wanted to be outside. I didn’t want to be in an office, and then I went there and thought that I had enough of that. I quit that. I basically stopped working for a while, and then I went to pump gas at a Hess gas station. And then some guy came in and offered me a job to do carpentry work. I took that, and I kept that my career. Interviewer: “How long a timespan was it before you wound up doing the carpentry work? I mean, how many years do you think were involved in there?” Probably about three to four years. Interviewer: “Okay. Now along the way did you get married?” Yes, I did. I got married six months after I was—after I came back. Interviewer: “Okay, and was your—Did your wife think that you were in some ways a different person from the guy who left, or did she ever notice changes, or…?” I think so. I—That’s something you’d probably have to ask her. Yeah, I—I knew she saw a different person. You know, I came back with a different outlook on life, and I know it was a different outlook on life. (1:02:00) And I was obviously—You know, I respected her a lot that— Because we got engaged before I went to Vietnam, which I thought was pretty stupid, because she was the kind of woman that—I think she would’ve stayed devoted to me if I was killed, and I don’t think that would’ve been fair to her. But it didn’t work out that way. But, you know, I think she saw a different person in me from when I left. Interviewer: “Okay. Now aside from just the business about not wanting to sleep in a bed for a while, did you have other kind of readjustments you had to make once you got back?” �Tamburini, John Yeah, I—In the service, you’re very regimented, and like one night I went for—I wanted to go get some cold cuts one night, and I remember this. And I went to a deli, and it was—The deli closed at nine—at ten o’clock or something. And I was there like 9:30, quarter to ten, and I wanted to order some cold cuts. And they wouldn’t—They wouldn’t cut the cold cuts for me because—They said, “It’s too close to closing. I don’t want to clean the machine again.” And I kind of sort of went off on him and probably said some words I shouldn’t have said because— “You’re open until ten o’clock. Why can’t I get my cold cuts until ten o’clock?” I’ve had bursts like that, so—Because, again, I just felt that I was regimented. I mean, if you’re open until ten, you’re open until ten. Interviewer: “So the world should work like the army?” Yeah. So, I mean, I had adjustments to make, and I had to adjust myself back to what was the norm here. Interviewer: “Did you have to change your language?” Yes. Yeah, I did. I had to watch what I said and who I said it to. Interviewer: “All right. Now did you ever get diagnosed with PTSD or anything like that, or have you sought counseling? Or have you…?” Yes. PTSD, yes. Right now I receive counseling every two to three weeks with a—my doctor, Dr. Morgan, who has been a tremendous help. (1:04:11) And no, he’s helped me out quite a bit. Interviewer: “Okay. Now I want to back up to some other things about being in the service and being in Vietnam. Now you spent most of your time that year in Vietnam in the field. You’re on firebases. You’re not spending a lot of time even at a place like Phu Bai or Camp Evans. Okay. Now in those situations out in the field what were race relations like? You had black soldiers, white soldiers…” I did have an incident one night on guard duty with another soldier who was black, and somehow, somewhere he got a hold of some marijuana. And I got a little upset because I could smell it, and I said to him—I says, “I know you’re—You’re a little high.” I says, “But you’re not going to be any good to me.” I says, “If the enemy comes through the perimeter—” I says, “You’re not going to be any good to me.” I says, “So I’m going to probably—You know, you’re going to probably be first, and they’re going to be second.” So—And then ever since then, we really—It was a tough relationship, but I had to do it because, again, I was in charge. Interviewer: “But in a way that particular issue could’ve been with anybody.” Yeah. Interviewer: “But otherwise basically did people just get along with each other because they’re all on the same team?” �Tamburini, John Yeah. Oh, yeah, we all—We all formed a bond because we all had a common mission. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Now when you were back on a big base like Evans or at Phu Bai or someplace like that, did the races sort of segregate themselves, or did you still stay with the same group?” (1:06:12) No. No, we were all basically—We all were in it for the same thing. It’s just that the guard duty to me was extremely important. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and aside from that one particular instant with marijuana, did you notice much by way of drug use or anything like that?” No. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, and also did you have—encounter many Vietnamese either civilian or military?” The Vietnamese—Well, obviously, other than the enemy, but back at the base camps you saw them. And I treated them with respect. I didn’t—I didn’t do anything—I just didn’t—I just treated them with respect. At that point, to me, they weren’t the enemy. Interviewer: “Yeah, and what kind of jobs do they do as far as you can tell?” It seemed like they did—Well, I was only back there like one time. It seemed like they did like cleaning if I could say that like with the hooches and stuff. But, again, it’s so—I think it was one day that I was there. Interviewer: “Yeah, and you weren’t really in places where there were villages because up in the hills you don’t have civilians.” No, no, no. No, you didn’t—You didn’t have much—No, because you were constantly on a base. Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you come back, you know, did you—Once you were back, did you follow the news of the war itself or pay attention to the anti-war movement, or did you just tune those things out?” I did follow it, and I understood more about it. And I also—I wanted to know what was going on because of the guys that I left there, and then as time went on, you know, it was really coming to an end. It was winding down. (1:08:03) Interviewer: “And when you came back, did you get involved with veterans organizations, or did you stay out of those?” Yes, I did. I went to—I joined a local VFW. I joined a local American Legion. What else? And that’s really—That’s the only two organizations that I joined, and then later on I joined the Purple Heart. �Tamburini, John Interviewer: “Right. Okay. Now where you were were the VFW and the Legion receptive to Vietnam veterans, or did they treat you different?” No, I think there was a lot of respect. A lot. And they—They had a lot of respect for them. Interviewer: “Okay, and were there a number of Vietnam veterans joining those at that time, or were you kind of unusual?” With the VFW there were quite a few Vietnam veterans. The American Legion not so much. More with the VFW. Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, because in some areas the VFW didn’t always treat the Vietnam guys well just depending on like where you were.” Yeah, I—I’ve heard that, but we even had our wedding reception at the VFW, you know, when we got married. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now, I guess, to think back to the time that you spent in the military and in Vietnam, are there other particular impressions or memories or things that stand out in your mind that you haven’t brought into the story yet?” Not right now that I can think of. I mean, you know, so much in my mind, and attention right now is focused on, you know, what I experienced at Firebase Ripcord. You know, with the reunion. And I had the opportunity to meet somebody just a little while ago. Interviewer: “Okay, and then at what point did you connect with Ripcord Association?” With a friend of mine who lives in Bridgewater. Who doesn’t live too far from me. About ten miles. (1:10:00) I knew him quite a few years ago at where he worked and never really knew, I guess, about Firebase Ripcord—the reunion—until I started talking to him again more recently. And then he’s the one that said, “Why don’t you come down? You can meet some friends of yours or, you know, some other guys that you were with.” And I’m happy I did. Interviewer: “Okay, so this is your first time down here?” Yes, it is. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. All right. Now, I guess, finally—I guess, to look back at the time that you spent in the service, how do you think that affected you, or what did you learn from it?” I’ve learned discipline. I mean, I love the country, and I would do anything to defend the country. I get a little upset with—You know, when I see some things that go on in the country. I think it would be a good idea that it would be mandatory that they kind of sort of enact—I don’t want to say the draft again—that it’s mandatory that somebody serve some type of time in the �Tamburini, John service, any branch of the service maybe for two years. And I think it would give everybody a good baseline of discipline. A lot of people out there today—A lot of young people out there today—I’m not—I’m not jealous of it, but I think, you know, they have the world in front of them. And it’s okay, but I think there’s that other line of discipline, which I know I definitely have—Which it’s given me. Interviewer: “All right. Well, the whole thing makes for a pretty good story, so thank you very much for taking the time to share it.” Yeah, you’re welcome. Thank you. (1:11:48) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_TamburiniJ2279V Title A name given to the resource Tamburini, John (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-02 Description An account of the resource John Tamburini was born in New Brunswick, New Jersey, in 1948. He graduated high school in 1966 and entered a two-year program at a technical institute before recieving his draft notice in 1969. Tamburini underwent Basic Training at Fort Dix, New Jersey, and then reported to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, for advanced training where he opted to join the Noncommissioned Officers program. He was deployed to Vietnam in 1970 where he served in the 2nd of the 319th Artillery Battalion, 101st Airborne and was stationed at firebases Jack, Gladiator, Ripcord, and Bastogne. His unit participated in the siege of Firebase Ripcord during which he recieved the Purple Heart for continuing to fight even after being hit during a gunfight. After only a year in Vietnam, Tamburini recieved an early-out and returned to the U.S. He then began part-time work at an engineering firm and later switched to carpentry, which he continued to work for the rest of his career. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tamburini, John P. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng