27 24 1541 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2fba0e8d9fad1a82586d4c45c9b89339.mp4 bd2838ebc9788ebfa27ae6194b683502 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d42db02b16e80cdb9027b93e6a9d1ec.pdf 0dddd10ee42f0d78a68f1cd3ea39df24 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II Eugene Smith Interview Length: (00:56:00:00) Early Life/ Early Military Experience (00:00:21:17)  Worked in a men’s clothing store during high school years (00:00:22:00)  After leaving job in apparel, worked in a defense plant making artillery shells (00:00:30:00)  Born in Wisconsin (00:00:50:00)  Drafted to the Army at 19 years old (00:00:39:00) o Was sent to a fort near Chicago, Illinois for a few days to retrieve some equipment (00:00:55:00)  Was then sent to Miami, Florida for training (00:01:03:00) o First went through a 6- week basic training program (00:01:11:27) o Did all training on the streets and golf courses of Miami Beach (00:01:17:00) o Stayed in hotels that had been turned into “army barracks” (00:01:30:00) o Was not use to working in the hot Florida climate after having been in the Midwestern city of Chicago and took roughly two weeks to adapt (00:01:45:00)  Had excellent instruction (00:02:14:19) o Received the “same training that a policeman gets (00:02:19:00) o Had physical training, lectures, demonstrations, practice with partners, and more (00:02:29:00)  Was then sent to fort Benjamin Harrison near Indianapolis, Indiana (00:02:45:00) o Received “advanced basic training” here, which was far more intense (00:02:50:00) o Enjoyed the training and frequently “made jokes more than we complained” (00:02:59:00) o Was extremely hot, which was used as a method of preparing the men for the climates they would have to endure when they were deployed (00:03:13:00)  Was able to visit family by train while in Chicago because of the close proximity to home in Wisconsin (00:03:29:17) Active Duty (00:03:58:07)  Moved by “troop train” from Indianapolis to Los Angeles, then to India by boat (00:04:00:00) o Their travels took them straight South down the Pacific Ocean (00:04:25:00) o Ship was a “very fast converted luxury liner” with a top speed of 32 Knots and could hold 8,500 troops (00:04:35:00) o Ship had only one 5- inch gun on its rear (00:05:15:00) o Traveled around Africa in order to avoid Japanese submarines in the Western Pacific, then traveled East near Antarctica, and stopped briefly at the island of Tasmania where they stayed for 3 days to refuel and rest (00:05:30:00)  When stopped in Tasmania, only allowed on land as a unit (00:06:13:00) o The streets of the island were barren (00:06:29:00) �         Was asked by a local if he wanted a “biscuit” while marching through Tasmania (00:06:28:00) o Accepted the offer, because the soldiers were always hungry (00:06:49:00) After returning to the boat, realized that 4 men were missing (00:07:20:00) o One man “jumped ship” to escape duty in India (00:07:29:00) o Other 3 men hadn’t realized that the ship already left and were forced to seek Tasmanian assistance to get them out to meet the ship and climb aboard. All 3 were arrested and “restricted to the boat” afterwards (00:07:37:00) After leaving Tasmania, headed Southwest of India to avoid Japanese submarines stationed in the Indian Ocean before heading North again, passing reaching presentday Sri Lanka, and finally arriving at Mumbai, India (00:09:40:00) o Mumbai was their “first look at India” (00:10:19:00) Stayed there for only a few days before being sent to a British camp North of Mumbai where they only stayed a few days (00:10:23:00) Did not have any supplies with them, so the hired camp cooks were sent to purchase food for the new arrivals (00:10:52:00) o The cooks came back with goats, which nobody cared for: both taste and the method by which they were cooked (00:11:10:00) o After finding something particularly unpleasant in the goat food, they rioted, destroying the “mess hall” (00:11:42:00) o The next morning, the Indian cooks had prepared “the most beautiful breakfast I’d ever seen” (00:12:25:00) After leaving the camp, boarded a train to present day Chennai, India (00:13:00:00) o The area near Chennai was “appalling” as children were starving, poverty was high, destructive monsoons were frequent, and famine plagued all the land (00:13:22:00) o In one particular town, donated half a plate of food to the starving children, although the child was unable to eat it because it included meat (00:14:23:00) Once arrived in Chennai, the men were put on another ship to Calcutta, India (00:15:10:00) o The ship was “a real rattle- trap boat” (00:15:19:00) o Ship was not a military utility vehicle, and was not properly equipped (00:15:21:00) o The ship took them through the Bay of Bengal to the city of Calcutta, India (00:15:36:00) o The trip to Calcutta was very difficult due to the lack of basic necessities, some attacks by Japanese submarines, and encounters with dangerous wildlife such as water snakes (00:15:47:00) When they reached Calcutta, stayed only a few days while in transit at a camp called “Dum Dum”, related to the name of a nearby village (00:17:55:00) o American Airport nearby was called “Dum Dum airport” (00:18:08:00) Then boarded some “river boats” and trucks to Coimbatore, India, arriving on Christmas Eve (00:18:25:00) o Was extremely cold when they arrived (00:18:50:00) o That Christmas Eve, around 2:30 A.M., some women from the Red Cross Association brought doughnuts for the men and a small gift (00:19:07:00) �        Were then assigned to barracks with walls made of woven bamboo and a roof made of thatch; each of which held roughly 40 men (00:19:36:00) o Were required to use a mosquito net every night, which forced the men to use rope to lace it around the barracks, consequently making it difficult to sleep (00:20:01:00) o The next day, the men were permitted to go into town to get mattresses, which costed about $3.00 in domestic American currency at the time and made sleeping much more comfortable (00:20:50:00) Was a military policeman (00:21:21:16) o In charge of base security only (00:21:24:00) o Tasks involved patrol by motorcycle, jeep, or on foot of various posts on the base such as the airstrip and finance office (00:21:31:00) o Shifts were usually 6 hours of duty and 18 hours off duty, although there were still tasks that needed completion during the free 18 hours (00:21:55:00) o Also guarded prisoners and anything else “to do with protection” (00:22:08:00) o Carried a 45 semi- automatic rifle and a night stick besides any special duties that would require additional firearms (00:22:16:00) o Patrol of the bomb site required one soldier to carry Napalm along with other weaponry (00:22:40:00) Many structures on the base were constructed with local vegetation, much like the army barracks made of bamboo, in order to keep the men cool (00:23:24:00) Roads on the base were not straight and tended to weave through the jungle (00:23:51:00) The entire base was shaded by trees for camouflage, with the exception of the airstrip. However air travel was still designed to be stealth (00:24:05:00) o The base was “primitive but very interesting” (00:24:38:00) First mission while in India was to bomb Japanese supply bases in Burma, a country in Southeast Asia (00:24:47:00) o American bomber planes, both B-25’s and P-38’s, would assemble before nightfall and fly over Burma to drop bombs, targeting particularly bridges in order to disrupt road travel (00:25:00:00) o American bombers would return to India by late morning, and repeat the process the following day (00:25:50:00) Soldiers were allowed to take leave at a “rest camp” (00:26:20:00) o This was unappealing for most because they did not want to be stuck in a camp on break (00:26:30:00) o Regardless of undesirable circumstances, took the opportunity to take leave at the camp whenever the opportunity was available (00:26:40:00) o Went a total of 2 times (00:26:52:00) o One time, went with two other men, and another time, went with 3 others (00:26:55:00) On one trip on temporary leave, went to Darjeeling, India (00:27:09:00) o Geography consisted of mostly very moist jungle along with the Himalayas (00:27:25:00) o In the mountains, it was “beautifully cool” (00:27:35:00) �o Was able to take a horse ride to see Mount Everest (00:30:00:00)  On another temporary leave, went to Lucknow, India (00:32:00:00) o Very hot, dry city (00:32:07:00) o Decided that the climate was not tolerable, instead went up to New Delhi, India to sightsee, then traveled up to the mountains and remained there for the rest of the allotted time (00:32:13:00)  Original voyage to India took 44 days (00:33:02:00) o Took 1 month to return home (00:33:11:00) o The entire deployment lasted a total of 28 months, with 24-25 spent in India (00:33:20:00)  Took a different route to get home, and after returning, had traveled around the world (00:33:35:00) o Traveled through the Suez Canal, across the Mediterranean sea, and across the Atlantic Ocean before coming ashore in New York (00:33:40:00) o All were very excited to be going home, particularly about the “very good” food that was served on the way (00:33:56:11) o Encountered a hurricane while traveling through the Mediterranean, making the route back to the United State rather uncomfortable for those onboard (00:34:45:11) o Men had 3 “meal tickets” for each day, which was punched each time a meal was taken (00:36:10:00) o Because the other men were terribly sea sick, had extra meals by asking for unused meal tickets (00:36:30:00) o Encountered the eye of the the hurricane when reached the Straits of Gibraltar. The hurricane continued into the Atlantic Ocean, causing the ship to behave violently in the unstable waters (00:37:00:00) o As dangerous as traveling conditions were, only a day of progress was lost to the storm (00:37:39:00) Post- Military Experience (00:39:00:00)  Was discharged on January 1st, 1946 (00:39:03:00) o Went back to Illinois by train and received a pay- out of $300 to “get back home” after returning all equipment (00:39:18:00)  Was able to return to job as a time keeper at the fencing plant (00:39:45:11)  Decided to go to college because the G.I. Bill of 1944 covered all veteran tuition and any additional higher education costs plus an additional $90 per month “to live on” (00:40:16:00) o In September 1946, began higher education at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin (00:40:37:00) o Each veteran received 1 month of paid college per month of active duty in the united states and 2 months of paid college per month of active duty overseas, according to the G.I. Bill of 1944 (00:33:56:11) o Earned a Bachelor’s of Science degree in Botany and a Master’s degree in Botany (00:40:56:00)  After graduating, got a teaching job at Aquinas College and moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1951 (00:42:12:00)  After retiring, moved to Lowell, Michigan (00:42:36:00) �  * Explains War Artifacts* (00:43:00:00) - (00:51:35:00) Has since lost contact with many old military friends (00:53:18:00) Service in the army was “one life, and when it was over with, it was done” (00:53:54:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmithENoID Title A name given to the resource Smith, Eugene (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Eugene Description An account of the resource Eugene Smith was drafted to the United States Army in the 1940's. He was stationed in Calcutta, India for a total of 28 months. Although the American troops deployed to India at this time were intended to attack Axis supply lines coming from the country of Burma, Smith was not actively involved in this mission and served as a military policeman. His duties consisted of primarily base patrol with occasional prisoner safeguarding. The base which Smith was stationed was highly underdeveloped and demanded fast adaptation by new recruits who had been thrust into highly dangerous positions from a previous life of suburban factory work. The 44-day voyage to India presented Smith and the other young American men with unfamiliar situations including attacks by Japanese submarines, hurricanes, and extended sea travel. Smith was discharged on January 1st 1946 and returned to his home in Wisconsin to attend Marquette University funded by the GI Bill of 1944. Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-05-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04d88fce362fa355c99f6f13ab79ad2e.mp4 aa299b3d31d0c37392ef62cde16f846d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f547cc63ad1a6d6a9553459024e8452.pdf b65b65b5767a1f97c382d4749bf1d6e7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 1:11: 25 Arthur Louis Smith WWII Veteran; Korean War Veteran United States Army; National Guard; 1942 to 1956 (when left the Reserve) (0:00) Early years • Born in Sioux St. Marie, Ontario, Canada in 1915 o Lived by huge mountains where would go and cut Christmas trees each year • Dad worked in a factory in Canada but then moved family to Detroit when got a job with his Uncle O.W. Smith, who ran a gravel pit in Oxford, MI o This gravel pit moved out 300 railcars full of gravel everyday o Arthur worked during the summers here and rode the barge o The gravel came down from the melting glaciers in Canada (4:18) WWI stories (Canada) • When Smith was a boy, would cut across his neighbors lawns to get to school. • One day Smith was walking across a yard and came across 2 medals on a chain (Dog tags). Smith returned it to the owner. The owner was so happy because it was one of the few pieces of memorabilia he had from serving in WWI • When WWI ended, Smith remembers that the Kaiser of Germany was killed [ed. note: actually just exiled—died in 1940]. In Sioux St. Marie burned an effigy of the Kaiser (6:56) Extracurricular school activities (high school; MI) • Marching band o Won the United States Championship in Tulsa, OK o John Phillip Sousa ran the competition in OK o Smith shook hands with Sousa o 1600 bands in Tulsa for the competition o This was Sousa’s last concert o Smith played cellophane and later the French horn o Required to practice 12 hours/week o Taught band at Interlochen during the summers • Football o Smith was the QB on the team • Track o Did the pole vault o Vaulted about 12 feet ƒ Had to be careful because used bamboo poles which could spit while vaulting and hurt the vaulter • Graduated high school in 1935 (13:50) College • Attended Alma College where he became the head janitor �• Played almost every sport very well • Graduated college in 1938 (15:10) Current events of 1939 • Current events didn’t really affect him; wasn’t involved in politics • Smith was in boy scouts (23:15) After college • Assistant coach for football at Constantine High School near Kalamazoo, MI • Won league a few times • Smith’s only rule was no drinking or smoking when playing on the team • The superintendent’s son (a center for the football team) was caught smoking and drinking and so Smith would not let him play on the team. Smith was going to get fired but the president of the school board stood up for him and Smith was allowed to stay o The guy who was kicked off the team became the team’s manager (28:13) Pearl Harbor • Was hitchhiking from Kalamazoo to Constantine (29:50) Wife • Soon to be wife, Kara, was Alma’s first homecoming queen • Smith dated her (she a freshman, he newly graduated) • When Smith got a job away from Alma, Kara transferred to Albion College to be closer to Smith • Smith and Kara went together for 4 years o Her dad said that she could not marry until she finished college • Married the first Saturday after Kara’s graduation in June 1942. • Called for duty 1 month later (32:20) Service • Went into the service late Spring-early Summer in 1942 • Went to Detroit then to Fort Custer, Battle Creek for basic training • Sent to Wyoming for advanced training in the mountains for the infantry division o wife followed him here and got an office job • became a Corporal • played basketball for the Army • went to officer training school in VA o became a “90 Day Wonder” o Kara followed him to VA • Sent to Boise, Idaho o First child was born here • Then sent to CA where shipped out to Australia (39:11) Australia • Stopped briefly in Hawaii and saw the massive destruction of Pearl Harbor • Big celebration aboard the ship when they passed the equator on way to Australia • In Australia, became a quartermaster (41:50) The Pacific Theatre • In charge of chaperoning the equipment • Stayed in the Philippines for a long time �o Was there when the atomic bomb was dropped on Japan • Smith was on the ship where MacArthur signed the peace treaty with Japan (45:30) After the signing of the peace treaty • On an island next to Japan that was about 100 miles long – [Okinawa?] • After Japan surrender, Smith was a part of the division that occupied Japan o Remained in charge of cars, trucks, etc. o Became a Captain (48:05) Communication • Was all done through letters • He and wife wrote each other (48:50) Dogs • Got a dog while over in Japan. This dog became like family to the unit • Smith was not allowed to bring the dog back home. Because the Japanese would eat the dog, Smith dug a hole and shot the dog. Smith didn’t want the dog to get eaten. One of the hardest things he had to do. (51:44) Home • Got on a ship that went to Seattle, from which he went back to Boise, Idaho • Discharged and joined the National Guard • Got a full time job coaching football at Boise High School • Wife traveled with him o They had their second child • Smith joined the Masonic Lodge in Idaho • Most of his career was spent in the Northwest however he did go back to MI for 2 years but then went back out to Boise where he coached football for the University of Idaho (58:11) Korea • Called up from the reserves o Served in Valdosta, GA at a base o Went in as Captain and got promoted to Major o Became a coach in the service again; they liked him so much as a coach that he was never sent to Korea but instead stayed at the base • After Korea, went back to coaching at University of Idaho (1:02:20) Michigan • 1956 began coaching at Alma College • Smith’s reputation was such that he was hired without meeting his employer • Became the head basketball and football coach; also coached some golf • Son was born • Stayed at Alma for a long time; coached until his retirement • Left the reserves when he came to Alma because there was not place to belong too in Alma (1:07:27) Masonry • Came to the Masonic Lodge in 1996, 1997, or 1998 and really enjoys it �(1:09:00) Family • He and his wife have 3 children, 6 grandchildren, and 4 great grandchildren � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmithA Title A name given to the resource Smith, Arthur Louis (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Arthur Louis Description An account of the resource Arthur Louis Smith is a WW II and Korean War veteran who served in the United States Army and the National Guard. Smith served in WW II from 1942 until 1945 in the Pacific Theatre and served his time for Korea at Valdosta Base, Georgia. During WW II, Smith was on the same ship that General MacArthur was on when he signed the peace treaty with Japan. In this interview, Smith shares his childhood recollections during WWI that included witnessing the burning of an effigy of the Kaiser in Ste. Saint Marie, his home town. Smith discusses his high school years and his love of sports, which spurred a life long coaching career. Throughout his years in the service, Smith coached the Army and National Guard basketball teams. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Michigan. National Guard Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-05-15 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0674d42312a2dff3d46d81e8ee2f920.mp4 09ed7827747381132799a252a7466120 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/19caba0c7c21bf79c1a03d6e0ac62359.pdf 05b30121bfccbc408ff6f87b45dcee68 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Transcript Earl Smestad Born: October 15, 1919 in Grand Rapids MI. WWII Veteran 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division Interviewed by: Jennifer Goven and Kelli Brockschmidt Transcribed by: Joan Raymer June 15, 2007 Interviewer: “Let’s start with your time in Grand Rapids before you joined the reserve.” “What were you doing during high school?” “What were you doing with your friends? What kind of school work were you doing?” The first school I went to was a Michigan school up on Michigan Street and they were going to tear that down and Reverend DeHaan took that church over and then we had to go to Coit School when I was about 10 or 11 years old and that’s about my grade school education. Then we went to Central when I was 12 and I graduated from there in 1939. Interviewer: “Did you have plans for after high school that you had thought of? Was there some kind of work that you wanted to do?” I always thought when I was in high school, I was in the R.O.T.C. about 3 years and that’s because we got free uniforms 3 days a week and then I got in the National Guards in 1938. Interviewer: “So, before you finished high school you went into the National Guard?” 2:27 I was in the National Guard before I got out of high school. Interviewer: “Where a lot of your friends in the guard? Is that why you went in?” They were all in; the whole neighborhood joined various companies. We had about 15 kids around there, they all signed up. Interviewer: “Why did you guys sign up? Just to hang out together or what?” We hung out and went around together, yea. We would sit up on the corner and watch the girls go by. We’d stop up there where all the girls worked in the Booth Dairy and chatted. We swam, we would go swimming at the park and play games, sports, football and baseball and challenge various teams from the “Gas House Gang” down there and then the Polish boys and the farmer boys. We would have a yearly football game with those 3 groups of boys. 3:29 Interviewer: “Did a lot of those boys also join the reserve?” Yea, there were some of them, but mostly it was boys from the neighborhood of College and Hastings Street and Union Avenue North of us there. Interviewer: “Did you spend a lot of time at the Armory?” 1 �We spent time down there when we could play pool and ping-pong and cards and they had a small swimming pool there. We would go swimming and we had to fight John English the manager. Interviewer: “You said you joined in 1938, what was the process like to sign up for the guards?” Just go up there and put your name down and sign up for 3 years at that time. 4:22 Interviewer: “Did you know what was going on over in Europe at this time?” That was one of the reasons I joined up, so I could get in with-- if we did have to go I would be in with a bunch of boys that I knew and was close to, that is one of the reasons I joined. Interviewer: “Who was one of your close friends at this time?” “My closest friend?” Oh, Ray Evans and Bill Caulkins, my brother and Louis Cane and Jim Verstay. Interviewer: “Now did your brother sign up with the guards the same time you did?” 5:07 He signed up about a month before I did with his buddy the Sherwood boy. Yea, we had hung around together all these years, we had parties all the time. They eventually all got married and we’d have reunions with the “Red Arrow” Club and the Grand Rapids Club meetings, every third Friday after a while. Interviewer: “So when did you find out you were being mobilized?” I think it was around August they were talking about mobilizing the guards. So I quit my job and I went with Bill Sherwood and Fred Ron, we took a trip out east for about 8 or 9 days and came back and we basically went south in October. Interviewer: “What did you do on your trip out east?” “What did I do on that trip?” “Oh my gosh”, we went visiting, we took pictures, we went to the Philadelphia mint and watched them mint coins there, we went to various parks and theaters with some friends of Fred. 6:33 Their daughter called up a couple of girl friends and we went out with them a couple of nights to the theater and Coke Cola stands. Interviewer: “So where did you end up going down south and how did you get there?” Well, first of all there were 15 people from the supply section, 15 enlisted men and 1 officer. They loaded us on a truck and I think that was about the 17th of October 17th or 18th maybe, and so we went to Kalamazoo and we got on the train at Kalamazoo. Our group, we went on the train down south, we stopped one time to relax our legs and get some refreshments and continued on to Louisiana and Camp Beauregard. Interviewer: “Did the train lead you to New Orleans? Is that where you got off the train? Did the train end in New Orleans that you took?” Yea, we went straight down on the same train, we didn’t have to get off except to relax and get some refreshments. 2 �Interviewer: “What unit were you assigned to?” 7:56 I was in the Service Company, 126th Infantry, 32nd Division. Interviewer: “So what were you feeling when you were traveling down there? Were you guys excited, or nervous? Oh Yea, we were talking and playing cards, whatever you do when your on a train, look at the scenery and like I said, we got off in Memphis for refreshments and went right on. It’s been a long time ago and it’s pretty hard to remember everything that happened on that train. 8:29 Interviewer: “What was your reaction to Louisiana when you got there?” Hot, it was October and it took us 2 or 3 days to get down there and it was hot and clay and we had to put up the tents, pound some stakes in and you couldn’t do it. You would pound a stake in and break it, get another stake and finally we had enough broken stakes around there to build a big bonfire, but then we got the tents up and we had to count and take an inventory of what was there. Tents, cots, mattresses and stuff like that. They had equipment there that had to be inventoried; it was lying around there in the kitchens. Every kitchen had about 3 battalions and 4 auxiliary companies down there and we had to check the property and vests, we was drawing supplies for them all the time and putting them up in their tents and stuff like that. 9:40 We were pretty busy. Interviewer: “Were you able to keep company with the boys you joined with from Grand Rapids?” Yea, in that group, yes. They were all mostly from Grand Rapids except--- the third battalion was 99% Grand Rapids, but then they had these other units from Muskegon, Big Rapids, Holland, Grand Haven, and the town south of here, not Battle Creek, but Adrian, they had a company and Holland had a company. The Massenma Company, they were from Grand Rapids and these other units like over from the 2nd and 3rd battalion. Interviewer: “Did you guys get a lot of training while you were in Louisiana or did you move on from there and have some more training in other places?” We were there and the troops came down around 10 days after, but they drove the trucks down. They came down by truck and we had training down there. They would go out in the field and train and what not. 11:17 We would just work around the warehouse and draw supplies whenever they needed them and requisition for the whole regiment. Interviewer: “What was the job you liked the most while you were down there?” “What was the job I liked the most?” Taking the weekend leave once in a while. Interviewer: “What was the worst job you had to do while you were down there?” K.P., washing dishes and peeling potatoes, that was the worst job. Interviewer: “What was your daily routine like? When did you wake up? What did you do throughout the day?” Gosh, we woke up real early in the morning I know that. They would have reveille and we would all get out there and salute the colors when they put the colors up and we had 3 �to do the same thing at night. 12:17 Some of us had to be out there in dress uniforms. We were a group of mechanics and supply people and what not and we would stand, as we were dressed. That was real a real touching moment of the day was when they would blow retreat at night and the cannon would go off everything stopped, all the trucks would stop and the driver always had to get out to salute. It was strict way back then, but I don’t think they do that much anymore; there is not as much discipline. There was a lot of discipline then, in fact if a Corporal told you to do something, boy you jumped up when he said “right now”. 13:19 They put the fear of God into you at that time. Interviewer: “What were your Sergeants like?” They were all ok, you liked some more than the other guy, but they were all pretty good, they just wanted—if you obeyed them they weren’t too bad, but if you didn’t, you got an extra job to do. So, you said “ok” and did what they told you to do, but if we had some time off we would kind of slip away once in a while. They had these bales of hay they used to stuff a mattress with, that’s what our mattress was like it had straw in there. If you put too much straw in there it was a big bundle, you had to put in just enough to lay on. I remember one time we was around there and we, about 3 or 4 of us, we fixed a little cave in that straw pile and low and behold they hollered for guys to report for a job, well, nobody is around and then all of a sudden a bale comes off the cover and we are looking up into the Sergeant’s eyes and he says, “Next time you find you r own hiding places, this is the place we always used to hang out” so, we had to search around for a different place to duck around. 14:57 Interviewer: “Do you remember that Sergeant’s name?” I remember a lot, Al Sawicki and there were guys, gosh, they were old timers. If fact Al Sawicki was a boxing champion in Grand Rapids around 1935. He was a tough little bugger. He’s the guy who gave me the nickname of Sam. We were down-- after we moved over from Beauregard we moved to Camp Livingston and at Camp Beauregard we had these Sibley stoves and once you put a fire in there these sparks would come up and every now and then you would look up there and say, “the suns coming through the tent”. We had a spark come on that spot and the spot got bigger and bigger, it was on fire. A lot of tents burned down over there. 16:02 When we went to Camp Livingston they had a stove in a tent and they didn’t have to worry about the sparks there. Al Sawicki was trying to wake us up one morning after we came back from a weekend pass and hollering at all of us to get up and everybody started getting up and I just laid there when he tried to call my name because he couldn’t pronounce it, he could pronounce Masalouski and Kozalowski and Willkowski, but he couldn’t pronounce Smestad so he just cut it down to Sam later on. He said, “get up” and he was still laying in bed and I said, “you’re not up yet” and he said, “if I get up, I’ll throw you out of your bunk” and he would, too. He was a little guy, but tougher than the dickens and so he got up and I got up and he came over towards me and I just kind of put my hand out like that and just caught him off balance on the chest and he backed up to his bunk and come at me, he was going to kill me. He said, “boy, if you don’t get up right now”---I knew he would so I got up about that quick, but he was a real good guy. 17:29 He didn’t talk to me for about a week or a while and “Big John” was his buddy. “Big John” and Al were pals from way back from the west side. I told John “do you know Al, he never says anything, he never 4 �hollers at me to get up or anything”, so I was on KP that day and I had to serve the Sergeants table and I brought a plate over there and John said, “is Al talking to ya”? He blows out a great big smile and from then on we were the same as we were before. Interviewer: “What kind of training was going on at Camp Livingston?” The troops would go out there with their machine guns and their rifles. They would go practice firing and maneuver around, like I said, I was a supply man so we stayed up in the warehouse and issued supplies when the supply Sergeant would come up with his arm artificer and whenever they needed some--- there was a ration section and another section and I was in the clothing and equipment and we would help each other out a lot. 18:53 We would have to go to the quartermaster and draw supplies and put them in a tent and call the companies up and tell them that their shoes are in or their socks are in, or their shirts are in, or whatever they wanted to have of their stuff. 19:10 Interviewer: “So where was your next stop after Camp Livingston?” Our next stop? Well, we had maneuvers down there all throughout the south and we had to go out in the field there, I guess, for probably a month. The Red Army fought the Blue Army. President Eisenhower, at that time he was a Major or Lt. Colonel, the opposition side there found out later on and then our supply guys, we just had to bring supplies through the lines at night, the companies’ rations and stuff like that. Then we went up to Fort Devens in Massachusetts. We went up there by train; our outfit went by train, a lot of the drivers drove up there, so we settled up in there. 20:18 Interviewer: “Prior to that, Pearl Harbor was attacked. Where were you on December 7?” “Where was I on December 7th?” I will tell you exactly, we was at a little tavern coming home from a small town and we said, “let’s stop and have one more drink”. I forget the name of the place, so we pulled in there and we looked up there and it looked like there was a riot going on. Everybody was pouring out of that place. We walked in and said, ”what’s the matter?” The M.P. said, “everybody’s got to go back, they just bombed Pearl Harbor”. Oh Man, so we had to go back to the camp as quick as we could get and we had to go down to the ammunition dump and draw tons and tons of ammunition to distribute to the troops. Then the troops were sent to Louisiana, bridges around Louisiana, Mississippi bridges and what not, important places. 21:21 These other companies were doing that and right after that we went up to get ready to go to Europe. We got up there and all of a sudden they changes their tactics and they took our engineers away from us and they were sent to ship out and they wound up in England, Ireland or England, I don’t know where they wound up at, so we didn’t have any engineer unit, so they drafted the engineer unit from Massachusetts to join our outfit, so we had some engineers with us. 22:02 Interviewer: “So, this was at Fort Devens?” Yea. Interviewer: “Now when Pearl Harbor was attacked, did you know where Pearl Harbor was?” 5 �Well we found out. We knew it was in the Hawaiian Islands. A lot of us knew where it was from our maps and history, but we didn’t know how serious it was. Then Sunday we heard the president speak. That famous speech he had there and I don’t know word for word what he said, but he said there was a war going on and that’s all. He declared war and then the Senate and House of Representatives had to vote on it at that time. Now days the president says, “well let’s conquer that county, we need the oil.” I could say a lot of nasty things about that, but whatever, it might cost me a quarter. Interviewer: “Where did you go from Fort Devens?” Well, then we went to—we had a furlough; they cancelled furloughs when we were down south. They cancelled furloughs and I was ready to go to the Mardi Gras with another boy and they cancelled furloughs and I said, ”oh gosh”. So, we got up there and then they let us, the groups that didn’t get furloughs, they gave them 5 days. 23:33 the group I went out with, 5 of us were from Grand Rapids. We got on the train and took off on the train and we called up some old friends, a friend that I knew when she was a little girl and I came home one night and said, “who’s talking to Helen, my sister? Go find out.” So, these girls talking to Helen were grown up girls and that was the same girl that lived next door to us way back when. So, we dated and 2 of us went together with friends around town here and what not. We were supposed to be back on a Saturday or Sunday night I think it was. I told Ted Urbanski, he was another boy with us, and I said, “I’m not going home on a Saturday, let’s go back Sunday”. Ok, so we called up another guy and he said,”ok”, so the 3 of us, we stayed Saturday and Sunday and we got back in time for reveille Monday morning. Then we all got called into the office and they said, “you guys are all busted and reduced in rank”. Ted and I were only a PFC, but Howard was a Corporal, so we all wound up as Privates. How convenient. 25:04 When I told them, “we got back for reveille”, our company commander, he got upset about that and said, ”well, the order was to be here Sunday morning”. Well, I said, “we couldn’t leave Saturday night without having a little fun”. Well, that didn’t set too good. The saddest part of it was, when we were going from Louisiana right up to Boston, he had sent his wife up there before hand and we weren’t supposed to tell anybody where we was going to go, but we got up there ands several of the officers had wives up there, but we couldn’t tell anybody else where we were going. 25:57 So, you know how much a secret amounts to. So, then for punishment we had to, Ted and I, we had to be on KP, so our supply officer said, “they’re not going to be on KP, go get em and type up some information”, I was a clerk there at the time. So, I got pulled out of KP, which I thought was wonderful, just super. 26:31 So, we got on the train and they used us as runners. I forget how many trains we had on, we had Pullman cars and we had 3 guys to a berth, 2 guys on the lower berth and 1 on top. They would get a message from there, where we were going to stop, rest stop, at the next little town. We would have to go back to the companies and tell the First Sergeant we were going to stop for x hours and for so many minutes. Well, every time you did that, everybody’s running up there to the taverns and running back with a bottle of pop or whatever they had, in paper bags and the train would pull out an you could see them running to try to catch the train. 27:29 Some of the guys never did come back. I think there was one boy in our company that I never saw after that, but we would have to go back and come back and would take turns about that. It was interesting, we would stop by and talk to the First Sergeant and take our time going 6 �back. We didn’t care if we got back to headquarters spot because there was always 1 guy up there anyway. You talk to the supply Sergeants and the mess Sergeants in there and they might have a little bottle of pop there and offer us, whatever. 28:10 Then we finally landed in California, got out, we weren’t allowed to go to town for a little while there, but we did manage to get out a couple of times. We went to a place they called the “Dog Track” and it was just a little track, an old dog track and I think we was there a day or 2 and they put us up into the coliseum where they had their Rodeos and all that and we slept in-between the benches there, our outfit did anyway. 28:46 Interviewer: “Is that what they call the Cow Palace?” Yes. Interviewer: “How long did you stay at the Cow Palace?’ Gosh, I don’t really remember. I don’t remember how many days, when we got there and it seems like we were there probably a week. 29:10 Interviewer: “Now, was that just temporary lodging because they had no where else to put you?” No, from there we went on aboard ship. Interviewer: “What ship?’ The U.S.S. Lorreline. Interviewer: “Where did you leave from?” We left from San Francisco. Interviewer: “Do you know when?” Yea, let’s see, in April---we left the 22nd of April and we landed the 15th of May, I think it was. Interviewer: “That was in 1941?” [1942] 1941, yes 1941, we had about 5,000 troops on that ship and 127 and 128, they were on 2 other ships about the same size, but the Lorreline, I think, was the largest ship. Interviewer: “Did you know where you were going?” We thought we was going to---we figured we were going to Australia, just talk you know and whatnot. 30:08 Interviewer: “Where did you stay on the ship?” We boarded—we had an advance group going on the ship to assign units different compartments in different parts of the ship. Our group was on the aft or the tail end and that is what used to be called the hospital bay. That was a 2-bunk affair, but part of us was in there and the other part was just inside. That was like 6 bunks there with about this much space between them, 5 or 6 bunks high. We were in what-- they were just 2 beds high in what used to be the hospital. The ship was on-- the tail end was right outside. We went under the Golden Gate Bridge and it was rough. 31:18 7 �Interviewer: “Did you get sea sick?” 4,000 troops got sea sick, at least 4,000. Interviewer: “How did you treat it?” We just didn’t treat it. “What could you treat it with? Nothing” Interviewer: “Now this was a luxury ship previous to this, so it was still pretty nice inside?” Well, some of them had rooms. Mostly the high ranking noncommissioned officers had rooms down there, cabins and there was a lot of them that didn’t have cabins. For 5,000 troops, you know, they had to spread them out. Interviewer: “Was the food good?” I guess if you could eat it. It was palatable, you could chew it down. Interviewer: “Now did you cross the equator?” Yes, we crossed. Interviewer: “Did you participate in the King Neptune ceremony?” That is the International Date Line, that’s not the equator, that’s a different line. We crossed that and I don’t know if we if it was the same day tomorrow as it was today or something like that, I forget how it’s changed. Then they initiated a few of the troops and out of our company they took 5 guys and you can’t guess who one of the guys was? Interviewer: “Was it you?” Yes, it was me and I remember there was Al Sawicki, Jimmy Wells, he was a golf pro in Grand Rapids for a good number of years, myself and I forget the other guys name, I think his name was Ray Dodds and it seems like there was another one, but I don’t remember. Anyway, your go and your in your “skivvies”, just your shorts on and you go down what they call a ladder, 2 ladders on each side going down the back of the ship and you get down to the bottom and there’s---on my side they had a guy with a pair of shears and they look about that long and I just had a haircut, I just had a brush cut, and the guy he would pull up a bunch of my hair like that and clip, clip, all over my head there. 33:48 I thought he was going to cut an ear off. Al Sawicki, on that side they had an electric shears and they just zipped up his head there and Jimmy Wells had that. So then you crawl along and there are some guys swatting you and spraying the hose at ya and I didn’t weigh too much and there were 2 guys there that just lifted me up and just chunked me in that barrel of water. 34:17 Those big blobs of water would just chunk you down and the next thing was say “pollywog” or “shell back’ and I was watching what was going on there and if you said “pollywog” down you went again, but if you said “shell back” they let you go. So, I was kind of wise to that, but I had to wait for the guy ahead of me to get dunked, so they plunged me in there and I said,” shell back, shell back, shell back” and they let me go, but Al Sawicki he didn’t know what he was, he was spitting water and down again he would go, I think they dunked him about 3 times before I said, “shell back Al, shell back” and he finally got wise and they let him go. Then they had 8 �guys there with sticks and when they were tired of doing that they would slap you one little lick that is about all, but then they had the queen up there in this court, sitting way up above there and they ‘re all dressed up and he’s got a rod there that shows he’s the boss and their all dressed up, their dressed up something beautiful. 35:43 Then he would say, “ok, let him go” or something like that. They let us go back and change and get some dry shorts on. Interviewer: “How long did that take?” It took all-day and part of the night. These sailors were running around there trying to get guys that dodged them. They would go around and say,” who missed it?” and you could hear them running around. Some of the sailors on board, some of them had never been over before either, so they were getting it too. 36:20 They only got a few guys from each unit you know instead of the whole gang, but I’m telling you, it was interesting. Some of the guys took pictures and I got pictures of the court and stuff like that. It was kind of fun. Interviewer: “How long did it take you to get to Australia?” I think we were on that ship 22 days all together. Interviewer: “Where did you land?” We landed in Adelaide, way in the southern part, but that was about the time the Coral Sea battle was going on and while we was on board ship there we got a note from Tokyo Rose and she said, “Well,” she said, “It’s too bad that the 36th Division was just sunk” and we said, “man o man they must have sunken one of the other ships maybe or something like that”, but they didn’t, they was just telling us how dangerous it was, but I often thought, I always thought I saw lightning all the time and come to think of it, it might have been the ships firing at each other there, but it was so far away—they weren’t even close to us there. 37:45 We landed in Adelaide at the dock there and people they got big signs down there “a loose lip causes damage” or something like that, “ bad talk or loose lips”, just don’t report stuff—that’s all you could hear for a while over there. Of course they were being attacked by Japan and they thought Japan was going to come through the mountains over there in New Guinea and attack them. 38:20 Interviewer: “How long were you in Australia before you headed to New Guinea?” Oh gosh, we was in Australia for a while and went through more stuff and we was in Adelaide and then we went up to Brisbane and got part way up to I think Armidale and we had to get off because the rails gauge changed, in every state there were different rails for the train so we had to load our baggage and our trucks and whatever supplies and stuff and then we drove the rest of the way, I don’t know how far that was. We bypassed Sydney and got into Brisbane and we set up tents in the woods there. There were no rows, there was a tent here and a tent there and whatnot, but they had a warehouse there and stuff. Interviewer: “Did you get much jungle training there? Were the troops getting trained there?” 9 �No, it was just in the woods there of that camp, Camp Cable, they named that Camp Cable after a boy from our company. He was on board ship and they were shipping some supplies from Brisbane by water and that ship got sunk and he was killed so they named the camp after him, he was from Kalamazoo. 39:59 Gerald Cable his name was, he was a mechanic. We was there for quite a while then we went on up, if I had that little “Red Arrow” book it would tell us when we left there in 1942, 41, 42. We left there and went to New Guinea and then Port Moresby. Interviewer: “In Brisbane, did you have any interaction with the Australians?” Yes, they’d go to town almost every night. There were drivers that were going to town and in Adelaide we went to town a bunch of times. We went bowling a couple of times down there and nobody knew how to score, but we just knew how to throw the ball there and how many pins we knocked down, we put them in a count, heck we were bowling 290 down there. When someone told us how to keep the score, they kept score for us and we was bowling about 90 or 100 and stuff like that. Then we wound it up and the rest of the time we just stopped, they would have an advance party to find a park for us to pull the trucks in and we had just a company of guys and we pulled in up there and in the morning, one morning, we got up and gosh, there was all snow up there, it was cold and it was all frost and everybody was frosty. It was in their wintertime by the way, it was their wintertime or getting in the fall. 42:01 We finally got up to Brisbane and went to town once in a while. They would go out and train and we would just go and pick up some more supplies and stuff. Finally we wound up in Port Moresby there. I think the name of the ship that took us up there was the “Holland”, the “S.S. Holland”, it was like a liberty ship and I think it was the “Holland”, I’m not sure, but somebody thought that was it. 42:42 Interviewer: “Did you guys know what you were getting into when you headed to New Guinea?” Well, we knew there was going to be some---that somebody was going to die up there, at least we should have known that. If there’s a war going on somebody’s going to get killed. 42:57 Interviewer: “Were you guys nervous about landing there?” No, I don’t think so, no. They didn’t get nervous until they went up to the front and I was fortunate that I never did get up there in that deal, but the Japs---we was living on the edge of an airport there and we had pup tents set up there and they had tents for the officers and the kitchen and then we would---the Japs would bomb, flying Charlie would come over every night and it sounded like a washing machine and “washing machine Charlie” came flying around there, flying around there and he would come every night, every night he would come and up on the hill they would fire at him and fire at him. 43:51 Interviewer: “Was this still in Port Moresby?” Yes, then, we was at the edge of the airport and they dropped---one night they dropped some bombs and 5 boys from H company out of Ionia, they just came down to pick up some machine gun parts or parts for their guns and machine guns and what not and a 10 �bomb hit the tree and the shrapnel came down and eventually 3 of those boys were killed, they died from that. 44:37 I had a small piece of shrapnel that didn’t amount to a pea size. Another fellow who was in our outfit, Fletcher, he was laying on his back and he had his knee raised up and it took his knee off and he lost his leg there and he disappeared from our view after that, but he got ok, he was selling war bonds in Grand Rapids here, he had a new leg and he stopped up and called our folks up there, their number and stuff. Up front there it was tough, you couldn’t see from here to you. My brother was laying up there and he heard some---if you hear some noise going out there and you didn’t know the password you took a shot at that direction and he had his rifle aimed out that way and the guy popped up and looked right at that muzzle of his rifle and finally he yelled the password and Carl, he should have fired right off the bat because he challenged him and never got a word back, but he never fired back and this guy was a friend of ours from Grand Rapids here and he came that close to getting killed. 46:10 Later on this boy, he got hit in the leg. He was all right, but he always had to wear a large shoe about that was much higher on that leg that got shot by a sniper. Interviewer: “What was the password, do you remember?” I don’t remember that, but they always used an “R” word because the Japanese, they couldn’t pronounce that word. “R” like Robin or Ruth was a password at one time or Robin and I don’t remember what some of the others might be. 46:46 Interviewer: “Now when you were hit with shrapnel, was this the first time that you had seen casualties?” Yea, because the other troops hadn’t gotten up there yet, but I went up to the hospital there and it looked like my whole side was ripped open because it burned and I just rubbed it and I bled all the way up that way. 47:14 “By gosh”, he said, “Fletcher got hit” and I went over there and he said, “were you hit too?” and he got all excited and jumped up and he was crazy. It was ok, I went to the medics and saw these other guys lying on the table being operated on and it was pretty bad. This one boy, I think he was from Wayland, his name was Ambrose, Ambrose was his name, this one boy, and the other boys name was Lester B. Sitts, S I T T S. I remember Sitts because he was in the armor for each company and he was a little short guy, he was, when we were in other camps he would come down there and try to promote little extras off us and I said, “now get outa here, you got all you got comin, now get going”. He would fight for more, they would always fight for more and we’d go down to the Quartermaster and we always had so many pieces to bring back, clothing or shoes, we’d want 5 more. 48:36 Interviewer: “Now were you in charge of handing out supplies? Is that what you were doing?” Yea, we had to keep a record of what we gave out. Interviewer: “Were you told how much you could give out to each company?” Yea, we know how much the TOD was, they had so many people, they got so many pairs of shoes or so many of this and so many of that. We knew how much they were allowed and they come back because they got so many men and they get one per man and they would say they had extra guys coming in all the time and I would say,”aw, get outa here”. 11 �Interviewer: “Where did your orders come from?” They would send in what they wanted and what they needed and we would check it out and go down and draw it, if we knew they were over we just---he said,” we ordered 50”, well you got 47 people there so you only get 47. 49:32 Everybody was trying, you know they---it’s a thing where you want to help your troops, but we were pretty good at that too down at the division there. Interviewer: “What were your orders from the time you were injured, after that where did you go from there?” We were there for a while, we was always there until we came back from up front there. Interviewer: “Was this at the time the battle of Buna was going on?” Yes, I never got up at that battle, but we got up to the rest of them with our supplies. 50:18 Interviewer: “At this time did you have any idea what was going on, on the home front? What was happening with your parents? Were you able to keep in contact?” Oh ya, guys would come back and we would hear about it. We would go down to the airport, we had to load supplies up at the airport, load the planes up and then while the troops was marching, the 2nd Battalion had to march over the mountain and I got a letter of this Al Sawicki, I got his diary of what happened on that night. Somebody should see it, but I couldn’t publish it myself because it isn’t---But then the only part about it is, he would just say, “a guy this,” he never put any names of the people in that writing that he had and it was in his own handwriting. He did that probably when he came back, I mean when he came back from there. He was a good old boy. Interviewer: “Did you have much help from the natives while you were there in New Guinea?” Yes, they called them “angels of mercy” up there at the front because they would take these prisoners, I mean wounded people and carry them back to the aid stations to get patched up and whatnot. They were really great, yea. 51:54 They always talk about that, every boy that was up there talked about them, but when the champagne came on it was just by luck that they---the Japs to begin with, the Japs were cut off to begin with, they had the blockade down and they couldn’t get any reinforcements at all and they were just blocked in there, why they had to continue the battle is---it’s in the papers that came out after the war. Why was it necessary to go up there, they had them blockaded off? They couldn’t go anyplace, they couldn’t get off the island, but that’s the way the army runs. 52:49 Interviewer: “did you have any direct contact with the Japanese while you were at Port Moresby?” No, no. Interviewer: “the natives, did they help deliver any of the supplies that you were giving out?” 12 �Oh yea, they were great; down there we didn’t need them because we had enough people there to load and unload the planes. Interviewer: “How were you able to talk with them?” We didn’t have much between us; we didn’t have much at all. We could use some words; I can’t remember just what words we used, what money was and what food was and some words like that. If all you knew was money and food, what else do you have to know? Interviewer: “During this time, where were you sleeping? How were you taking showers? What were you eating? We had a big 50-gallon drum up there and we run water. We were able to go out and swim, but it was kind of dangerous because of the rocks out there and the coral out there and it wasn’t---there were fish out there, sting fish or whatever and stuff like that, but swimming wasn’t the best thing to do, just go out there and wash and clean-up a little bit better than with the 50 gallon drum there coming down on ya. I got some pictures that you might have seen, I don’t know. 54:41 Interviewer: “Where did you go after Port Moresby?” Where did we go? We didn’t go anywhere. There was nothing there except some buildings, but now it’s a modern town. Interviewer: “After you left there, what were your next orders?” We went back to Australia; we had more training down there. We went back to Brisbane and then we had some leave time and we went to different towns around there. We traveled and on up there we met acquaintances and we went back down there again and I went to South Grafton, 4 of us went down there and we slept in a hotel out on a porch. They closed the end of the porch off and put 2 beds in there, well, they had a bed inside and out on the porch they put 2 beds out on the porch there and another boy and I slept out there and 2 other fellas slept in the bed there. I come in one night and the door was locked. I shook the door and said, “hey, it’s Sam”, Combs was there and I called him “Duck” and he said, “who’s there?” and I said, “me, let me in”, I’m shaking the door knob and all of a sudden I look up and the door knob from the inside fell on the floor so I just pushed the door open. 56:19 Well, he had a friend in bed with him, that’s why he didn’t want me to come in. Interviewer: “Did you meet people there? Did you have any relationships? Were there friends from home? Did you have a girl friend there? Did you meet any girls in Australia?” Oh, we met a girl the first night we was there. They had some kind of a carnival in town, South Grafton was a small town like Rockford maybe and it was a pretty town. We went to a bar and they were rationed with their drinking so we were drinking, I forget what we were drinking, having some highballs or something and this young couple there was running the bar, a man and his wife, they said, “we ran out ” of what we was drinking, “well”, they said, “we got a bottle of rum here” and I heard of rum and coke ya know and so we said, “we’ll buy it”, so we bought the bottle of rum and out of the corner of my eye 13 �I looked in there and there was a lady sitting around the corner there, so we went outside and opened the bottle up and this one boy took a drink out of it and said, “oh, wow!” and I took a drink out of it and it felt like it was a “boiler maker” going down and when it hit the bottom, it seemed like it exploded. Wham! 58:17 We had that bottle in our—I saw this other girl there and I started talking to her and we visited a little bit you know and found out where she lived, right up there not too far away. We walked her home and the other guys disappeared so, I met her that night and a couple more nights and I said, “I think I will stay here for a while”. While we were there, there was a boy who was AWOL and he had been there for a month already and I said, “I’ll do the same thing”. 58:58 Interviewers: “Thank you Mr. Smested and Happy Veterans Day.” 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmestadE Title A name given to the resource Smestad, Erling Martin (Interview transcript and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smestad, Erling Martin Description An account of the resource Erling Smestad enlisted in the Michigan National Guard in 1938 and served in the 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division until June of 1945. His unit trained in Louisiana and was shipped first to the East Coast and then back across the country and across the Pacific to Australia and New Guinea, where it fought in a series of battles before going on to the Philippines. Smestad's account covers all of this, and includes good descriptions of different aspects of training and of trying to fight a war in a jungle without adequate supplies. His interview is featured in the documentary Nightmare in New Guinea produced by Grand Valley State University. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goven, Jennifer (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-11-0 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4bb7675afc8d2e858dde38e74d71b9ab.mp4 a6f56c6785e10bdc7f9ab17f524f4ffd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6c379a2bfc615dc72e17a638dc21b4cb.pdf c89b525604375f7cd7f4291ee0414c6d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans Hisotry Project William Sleaford (02:00:01) (00:05) Introduction • Born in Saint Clair Shores, Michigan. • Father was a member of Michigan National Guard during World War I. • Served in World War II. (01:35) High School • 17 years old when Pearl Harbor occurred. • Relocated from Saint Clair Shores to Muskegon, Michigan in 1940. • Worked in a supermarket during high school. • After graduation, worked for Continental Automotive. (07:50) Entering the Service • December 1, 1942 began service. • Began training at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan. • Applied for cadet review and failed due to an unbuttoned button on his military blouse. • Accepted to the new College Training Detachment program and attended college at the University of Tennessee after a year of service. (11:55) University of Tennessee 1943 • Lived in dorms at the university at first, and then lived in the stadium. • Took aerodynamics classes as well as flight training. • Flew out of a WWI airfield. • Had only one minor mishap during his flight training. (19:00) Gunnery School • Panama City, Florida. • Used skeet shooting as a shooting exercise. • Was an accomplished marksman in the service, shooting 23-25 out of the 25 shots allowed during an exercise. • Used tow planes flown by WASP’s for their shooting exercises. • Notes that training exercises were very predictable and did not prepare you well for combat. (23:08) After Gunnery School: • After gunnery school was sent to a manpower area in order to create crews in Lincoln, Nebraska. • Sent by train to Mountain Home, Idaho to the new airbase. • B-24’s were the main airplane used. • Hangars were made out of wood in order to save money and resources. • Airplanes were usually housed in revetments instead of hangars. • Began flying with crew in Idaho. • Airplane commander was a 1st lieutenant, which was very rare. • Fellow crewmen came from all over the United States. �2 guys on crew had been injured and left. One member of crew was Jewish and just wanted to perform his duty like every other American man. • Worked as a flight engineer on the plane although he never had formal training on a B-24. • Knew he wanted to be a pilot since he was a child. (32:40) Jobs • Worked on both electronics and aerial photography on the B-24. • Flew on a special flight over Europe to take photographs. • Trained in Idaho for about 6 months. (34:57) Trip Overseas • Assigned an airplane in Idaho. • Flew to Topeka, Kansas for medical procedures and military orders. • Then flew to an airbase in Springfield, Massachusetts. • Flew then to Bangor, Maine in preparations to go overseas, but plane had crashed. • Two men on crew were hurt in Maine and had to be replaced • After receiving the replacements, they were sent to Topeka, Kansas to receive new orders and went to Europe on a ship. • Left New York on the Marine Robin. • Some minor interactions with U-Boats on the trip. • Arrived with convoy in Liverpool, England. • Remembers the large amount of sunken ships off the Liverpool coast that were sticking out of the water. (41:25) England • After leaving ship, the men were placed on trains and left for Halesworth, England in August. • Halesworth was a very small town. • Bombing group helped open a town library in Halesworth. • Worked on a former Royal Air Force air base. • Flew 14 missions out of Halesworth. • 49th bombing group was one of the most efficient bomb groups. Brought back to the United States to change from B-24’s to B-29’s. (46:25) Missions • Did not realize what they were getting into before their first mission. • Flew over continental Europe enduring heavy fire. • Airplanes dropped chaff in order to confuse the enemy anti aircraft fire. • One mission included 1200 allied aircraft over Europe. • The missions were included in a flight book, however they were not allowed to open the mission until a precise time and place. • Fighter planes only accompanied the bombers for a very short time. • Own airplane did not endure a lot of damage while overseas. • Flew on both B-17 and B-24 aircraft during time in service. (54:58) Position on aircraft • Qualified to work as a flight engineer. • • �• Most work was taking aerial photographs. (56:30) Mission Locations: • Flew over Frankfurt, Germany. • Very heavily protected. • Never had to fly to Berlin. (58:29) Targets • Took photographs of German ball bearing plant to see the damage inflicted by allied bombings. • Bombed only specific targets, not just bombing cities and civilians. • Also photographed submarine holding pens. (01:00:35) Carpet Bagging Missions • Likened to the modern day CIA • Worked with other allied countries. • All members were sworn to secrecy and had no idea where they were traveling. • Special navigator knew the flight plan, no one on the crew did. • Thinks they landed around the Balkans, but to this day does not know for sure. • At certain points, special navigator would let crew know when to take photographs, while they had no idea where they were. • Believes they were flying over and photographing concentration camps. • Mission lasted in the air for 5.5-6 hours. • The aircraft was fired upon at one point. • Carried fuel in bomb bay tanks and wing tanks in order to have enough to make it to destination. • On one mission, there was trouble-gaining altitude; the crew determined the wrong type of fuel was in the tanks. • They bailed out after realizing they could not gain altitude, Sleaford still carried the film with him. • He pulverized the camera before bailing out so enemy troops would not learn what it was. • Freefell with parachutes in the middle of the night out of the plane and landed on what he thought was a frozen river, but was actually a concrete road. • Right after landing, his body was in shock and couldn’t move. He then heard a diesel engine and was spotted by a Portuguese truck driver. [Their mission most likely had been to a partisan-held airstrip on Yugoslavia, where the ground crew used the wrong fuel. The return route would have avoided enemy-held territory, and thus took them across central Italy and then over Spain, where they couldn’t get high enough to cross the Pyrenees. Spain was sympathetic to Germany, which is why Sleaford had to be smuggled out of the country.—ed.] • Portuguese driver placed Sleaford in the truck and took him back to Portugal. • All seven men from plane were reunited in Portugal. • Once arriving in Portugal, he stayed in a small hospital unit until a military ambulance transferred him to the United States consulate. (01:35:00) Returning stateside • He released the film to military personnel once he reached the consulate. • Met back with his bombing group shortly before being shipped home. �They traveled from Liverpool, England to Boston, Massachusetts. They were then sent to Bradley Field in Connecticut. December 17 was the day he returned home on furlough Michigan. He was then sent to Topeka, Kansas to leave the military. Remembers friends back home complaining about the lack of cigarettes, overseas, the men had received cigarettes for free. • Sent to Buckingham Army Air Base to train to fly B-29 aircraft in the Pacific. • They would fly from Arizona to Brazil for training missions. • After training, the men were sent to Fremont, Nebraska. • When the bombs were dropped on Japan, he was serving in Nebraska and remained stagnant. • He received orders to be shipped out to Peyote, Texas where aircraft were being shipped. • He was then sent home and discharged. (01:49:08) Returning Home • Worked at Consumers Energy for six months and then returned to Continental Motors. • He then began working for G.E. as an engineering technician in Cincinnati, Ohio. • G.E. paid for him to go to school to become a project engineer. • He later worked on snap seven, small nuclear reactor engine. • He believes that his time in the service gave him an appreciation for work. • The caste system between enlisted personnel and others is a major flaw of the military he feels. • • • • • � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SleafordW Title A name given to the resource Sleaford, William (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sleaford, William Description An account of the resource William Sleaford, of Saint Clair Shores, Michigan, served with the United States Army Air Corps during WW II. He attended college courses while in the military for flight training. He flew with a bombing group in Europe and participated in dangerous covert air photography missions over the European continent. He also participated in carpet bagging missions, on one such flight, the aircraft faulted and he parachuted to the ground. A Portuguese truck driver found Sleaford and took him back to Portugal picked him up. After his service, he became an engineer with General Electric. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-01-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c90ae27bd4241c255e692c69775db2ab.mp4 cd5d3df40a17dc3da5000b94ea48b57d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/52f042a659d04533674a5e146e5dea1b.pdf fe84c775beb5637bedef1ac3c14b396c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of Interviewee: Morgan Singer Name of War: World War II Length of Interview: (00:53:40) Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (00:13) • • • • • • • Born in Pinckney, MI He had 10 brothers. (00:57) He decided to enlist in the Navy because he had two brothers that were already in the Navy. His father was a farmer. His father died when he was 14, so his mother worked in the kitchen at Pinckney High School. (03:55) He remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor on a Sunday, and going into school the next day and talking about it with his teacher. He worked in a factory that made bombers for a time before he enlisted in the Navy. Training (11:05) • • • • • • • • • • • He was sent to Great Lakes Naval Training Station in Chicago, IL for 10 weeks of basic training. At training, they did a lot of marching and class work. (14:30) He was given 8-10 days leave after he complete basic training. (15:25) After his leave, he was sent to OGU (outgoing unit) in Chicago, where he was assigned to the amphibious group. (15:55) He was sent to Camp Bradford, VA where he learned and trained on LSTs. He was there for a month (16:35) He was then sent to Ft. Pierce, FL where he trained on LCVPs. They practiced beach landings there. They trained in all weather and did a number of tasks, including night training and swimming. (22:15) After Ft. Pierce, he was sent first to Norfolk, VA and then to Pittsburgh, PA where they waited for their LST to be completed. It was completed in February 1945. (25:30) They received the ship and sailed down the Ohio River to the Mississippi River, and then to New Orleans. (27:13) They took their shakedown cruise in the Gulf of Mexico, and then moved towards the Pacific. (28:10) His ship got caught in a terrible storm on the way to the Panama Canal, which caused them some trouble and delay. (30:15) The ship stopped in Colon, Panama before they went through the Canal. �• • • • • • • • • (30:50) They had priority as they went through the canal, because the Navy badly needed amphibious forces. Once they made it through the Canal, they made it through they made their way towards Hawaii on their own. (32:55) They got to Hawaii and were piloted into Pearl Harbor. (33:39) They left Hawaii and headed for the Philippines, and landed near Manila. On the way over, they crossed the equator, which involved several initiation rituals. (36:50) Was sent from the Philippines to Guam, where they were prepped for the invasion of Japan. (37:45) Was in Guam when the war ended. (40:15) He was sent back to the Philippines to pick up used army equipment for about 6 months. (42: 05) On leave, they would go into the small towns in the area. They would oftentimes watch American movies with the Filipinos. He remembers the people being very friendly. (45:20) After the Philippines, he was sent to Hawaii, then San Francisco. They dropped anchor near Alcatraz to decommission the ship. (47:10) He was then put o a train and sent to Chicago, finally arriving home July 6th, 1946. Post-Service (48:01) • • When he got back, he tried school but it didn’t work out. He eventually got a job in the plastics industry, where he stayed for the rest of his life. He was finally awarded a diploma from his High School in 2007. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SingerM Title A name given to the resource Singer, Morgan F. (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Singer, Morgan F. Description An account of the resource Morgan Singer was born in Pinckney, MI and served in the Navy during World War II. Singer was sent to Great Lakes Naval Training Station in Chicago, IL and then to Fort Bradford, VA and Ft. Pierce, FL for training on LST landing craft. After training, he was shipped to Guam, where he was preparing for the invasion of Japan when the war ended. He was then sent to the Philippines, where he worked clearing vehicles. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-09 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/95b95e4fd6099356d8083b5b40470f7a.mp4 773b4cd1a1b4dedc09a1e0e4c0b2537b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/34dc23019f55d1647367585c53304adc.pdf 60ebcfcc6d1b9a1cbc1f69a1bc7a460a PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WILLIAM A. SIKKEL #1 of 2 Transcribed by Joan Raymer May 11, 2007 Birth date: November 25, 1920 :50 I started out as a Private and went through the enlisted rank up to Staff Sergeant. I was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in Australia, came home as a Captain and reorganized the Holland, Michigan National Guard Unit and retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. 1:10 Interviewer: “When did you join the National Guard?” On my eighteenth birthday. Interviewer: “Why?” Well, I had an uncle that was in at that time and I kind of idolized him. I had a dad who was a WW I veteran and who was a Dutch immigrant. He was red, white and blue and things like Memorial Day and any holiday was sacred. 1:45 I guess it was ingrained and I guess I, for some reason or other, took a liking to the concept of leadership and troop organization. That pretty much motivated me to join. And I imagine the tail end of the depression and a few extra dollars must have factored into it sooner or later. 2:13 My clear and dear preference would have been to fly, but once you’re in the infantry, you’re in the infantry. Interviewer: “Had you ever traveled outside of West Michigan before you joined the service?” Outside. A few trips to Chicago, I remember a group of young men took a bunch of us kids to Detroit to see a Tiger game and then we crossed the Ambassador Bridge into 1 �Canada and that was a biggie, 2:48 other than that, no. I was pretty much restricted to the midwest. Interviewer: “When you joined the 32nd Division of the 126th Infantry [126th Infantry Regiment of the 32nd Division], did you understand the history of that division?” Not that division, I understood the history of the local unit, but at that particular point in my life, that was pretty much it. I knew somewhat of the structure, that it was pretty much West Michigan, anchored in Grand Rapids, which was the 126th headquarters. 3:19 A that point in my career I stuck with the basics and that was my local unit. Interviewer: “How many of the 126th Infantry Company “D” did you know personally before you went to Louisiana?” I would suggest that I was quite familiar with at least 50 that I can say I knew quite well. There were several that were considerably older than me and we didn’t have a lot in common, plus the fact that most of them had significant amount of rank and I was just a lowly Private. 3:57 You didn’t get too familiar with Sergeants in those days. Interviewer: “How did Holland send you off when you went down to Louisiana?” The word is “you” there and I have to qualify that. We left the city in October of 1940. There were, and I am guessing, six of us who were sent early that day. One drove the unit commander’s car, another one, who eventually became my brother-in-law, he drove his car down, my 1st Sergeant drove down with his wife and we were asked to drive someone’s car down, so the six of us left in the morning. 5:00 The rest of them left that evening from the railroad station. Your question was the community, if I recall the question and let’s put it this way, “enthusiastic, emotional support from the time the unit 2 �marched out of the armory until it boarded the train.” That was all information I received from my buddies once we joined each other in Louisiana. Interviewer: “What were the fears and questions you had as you were leaving?” 5:47 That is a good question and in retrospect, I’m not trying to suggest that I am more adventuresome than most, but I must have felt a challenge, so outside of the basic homesickness, I just saw it as an opportunity. 6:13 When you go with a group that you know so well it makes it so much easier. We knew the communication was going to continue once we got there and that pretty much alleviated any anxiety. And quite frankly, from a very personal perspective, I must have seen a challenge. I had a dad who was a perfectionist and I had a very difficult time pleasing him. That doesn’t mean I didn’t respect him, I just had a difficult time appealing to what he was trying to make me and I knew there was no possibility that we were going to be on the same page or the same network. That contributed somewhat because it gave me a comfort zone 6:58 and I had to prove something to myself. Interviewer: “ Where were you when you heard about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?” I was quite frankly having dinner with a wonderful family in Alexandria, Louisiana. We were treated extremely well down there. Many of us met many, many wonderful families down there who invited us for dinner quite frequently. It happened to be a family that invited me to dinner that particular noon and I was there at their home when we heard it on the radio. 7:11 Interviewer: “What was your initial reaction to that?” 3 �That I had to get back to camp. I happened to have, I think I was at that time a Staff Sergeant, what they call a recon or reconnaissance car, which was a military vehicle and I was smart enough to know that I better get back to camp with that. 8:01 So that is obviously what I did. Your next question might be “What did you experience when you got back to camp?” and I would be happy to answer that question. Interviewer: “How did your training vary for going to the south Pacific?” It didn’t, all of our training up to that point was training for what we call open warfare. 8:33 What I mean by that is typical Michigan terrain. Hills, valleys, woods, open fields, rivers, that’s what we were trained for. We didn’t have a clue to what a jungle was like. Sooner or later you might ask the question “where did you go from Louisiana?” and that will qualify somewhat the answer that I am giving you now. Outside of the fact that we did a lot of training on our individual weapons, like pistols, rifles, mortars and the typical enemy training like chemical warfare, cover concealment, camouflage, anti-tank defense, communications all those little things, those are the things we were taught and most of those you could use no matter where you went. 9:24 Interviewer: “In terms of your training, did you use live ammunition during practice and drills?” If you interviewed many who were in active duty that early, you probably have been told that we faked a lot in those days and by that I mean, we didn’t even have weapons. 9:48 So if we didn’t have weapons, we didn’t have live ammunition. So for example, in my case, by that time I was in the 81-Mortar Battalion and we used fence posts to simulate a 81 mortar. Obviously you can’t shoot out of a fence post, but what you can do is learn the tactical deployment of a mortar because the basic principals are lob it up and lob it in, 4 �so the angle of the angle of the fence post would be proportionate to the angle of what the mortar should be and the reason that’s significant is because the mortar person selects a totally different kind of terrain than artilleryman would for example, because a mortar shell goes up and over where an artillery shell goes in flat. 10:37 Therefore, you have to hide behind a hill and shoot over it, that’s the ideal situation. Interviewer: “when you were stationed in Louisiana, did you have any funny or strange things happen in camp?” Lots of them, some are cultural and some are climatic. Cultural is obvious, a bunch of Yankees out of Holland Michigan and placed in Louisiana, plus remember it was 1940 and there were still people thinking Civil War down there and we were in the eyes and minds of a lot of people “Damn Yankees”. I recognized early on that there were two types of southerners, the rebel southerners and the southern genteel. 11:27 And those southern gentlemen and ladies, they were a fine bunch of people; they made us feel very welcome. That’s the first observation, the second, climatic, going to a football game on Thanksgiving Day in a tee shirts and umbrellas was totally foreign to me because you button up pretty good when you go to a football game in November here generally speaking. Then of course the terrain, if you have ever spent any time in the “boonies” in Louisiana you’ve heard about red clay. 12:08 We had a cliché that went something like this, “Louisiana is the only place in world where you can be up to your rear in mud and have dust in your eyes”. Essentially that’s the way it is and when that mud cakes on your shoes your carrying a few extra pounds around. So that translates into where we lived, we lived in a tent city because there certainly weren’t enough quarters for the rapid expansion of troops, so the only permanent buildings were the mess hall and that had a 5 �sand floor and the latrine or the bath house at the end of the street. In-between there were tents and wooden floorboards and a stove that burned wood, so the funny part of it is that it was not unusual to come in from field training and find two or three tents gone because the sparks would ignite on the tent and that was the end of the tent. 13:08 I could go on and on about all the weird things that happened, but I’ll just give you one quick one. We had been given a course by the doctor on what to be careful of such as Tarantulas, you always move the leaves out of the way and then you sit for a class or whatever and would you believe, I sat right on a Scorpion. 13:33 Needless to say the doctor was right there so I had first aid right now, it was a little humorous. That was a practical explanation of what first aid is, but I never planned it that way. Interviewer: “Did you receive any shots before you left and did you know you were going to the South Pacific?” No we didn’t have a clue we were going to the South Pacific, shots yes, in fact I realized that some of us older people have a crummy sense of humor but it’s not unusual for a veteran to call a nurse a blood sucker. 14:20 You may have heard that before, but we had our blood tested so often and we had so many shots that it gets to be routine. Back in those days particularly because now you get on an airplane and fly to another country and you don’t get immunized or segregated when you get there. Back in those days one way to control disease was, number one with shots and number two, wherever we went into we went in isolation for at least 3 days until we were acclimated to the country we were in or the location we were in. 14:54 Interviewer: “San Francisco, how did you get there and what was it like when you got there?” 6 �Would you mind it I went to Fort Devens Massachusetts before we get to San Francisco? There is a reason for that. The Michigan and Wisconsin National Guard were the 32nd Division and we were sent to Louisiana obviously to train for the event and in that alleged 1 year, it was extended considerably. Therefore, I believe in March of 1942, we were sent to Fort Devens Massachusetts. The obvious question is, “you were going to Australia and New Guinea, what were you doing in Massachusetts?” 15:50 The answer was, our division was sent to replace the 1st Division who were at Fort Deveins Massachusetts at the time. The “Big Red One” you have heard about and we were destined I understand, for Ireland as a staging area. 16:03 If you read in history about the time in Corregidor and General Macarthur’s situation at that time, he was promised an army in Australia by President Roosevelt. Therefore, we were diverted from Fort Devens Massachusetts to San Francisco. We didn’t know where we were going except we were going to San Francisco. My dad died that week so I hitchhiked with the 127th Infantry out of Wisconsin and ended up in California and boarded ship about 6 hours before we left. 16:39 Never the less, we didn’t have a clue as to where we were going except obviously we weren’t going to Europe. Interviewer: “Did you hear anything aboard ship, any rumors or any sort of report as to where you were going and what it was like?” We weren’t told anything and I have a short diary at home, but I think it was the fourth day out of San Francisco when they finally told us where we were going for two reasons, one to satisfy our curiosity and stop the rumors and the other was, that was the time they began our little lectures on the cultural differences between Australia and America. 17:29 You wouldn’t think there were that many cultural differences, but even their slang 7 �language is totally different than ours, so we were prepared to understand what we were getting into once we got to Australia. Where in Australia was a clue and could be a follow up question “did you go where you were intended to or did you go someplace else?” I sent you some suggestions and I don’t know if you want to get into that now or later. 18:00 Interviewer: “In terms of the transport over, what was the experience like waiting?” Good question, and the reason it is a good question is the use of what we are doing now and you are doing now is such that we are trying to convey is the difference in transportation then and now. 18:33 If you were to watch TV tonight you would probably see someone getting on an airplane and flying of to Iraq or someplace. Number one, we went from the east coast to the west coast on a train and that in itself it totally different than hopping on a plane and flying over to San Francisco and getting on a plane. The second thing is getting on a ship because that’s the way troops were shipped in those days. In our case it was a whole division, a whole division which at that time was say the Triangle Division in the neighborhood of say 9,000 – 9,600 men all in one convoy with freighters. 19:13 And slowly, slowly because we had, I guess, 14 ships in our convoy and we could only go as fast as the slowest freighter, so even though we were on the so called flag ship Matson line and she had a sister ship Mansonia, we could only go as fast as the slowest freighter which was something like 14 knots, so that plus zigzagging, it took us 25 days to get from San Francisco to South Australia. 19:50 The reason for going to South Australia, I will share with you right now, is we were headed from [for] Brisbane which is on the North East quarter, however, while we were on that timeline on that map that I showed you earlier, the timeline would suggest that the Coral Sea battle 8 �that was taking place off to the North while our convoy was headed for Australia. 20:19 I don’t recall at that point of us having any Navy escort. 14 ships and no naval escort because they are all committed to the Coral Sea battle and we could see the flashes in the distance. About this time, and this is all speculation, the speculation we all seemed to agree with is that at that point we were diverted to South Australia instead of Brisbane because Brisbane would have been right in line with chaos so we went to South Australia which is considerably farther away. 20:55 Interviewer: “Tell us about the Neptune Ceremony.” Huh! That’s a Navy tradition when you cross the equator funny things happen and I don’t know if it’s a get even time with the cocky characters who need a little extra trimming, I don’t know. I was pretty lucky, I just got thrown in a pool, but there were those should I say, you probably heard about high school freshmen or college freshmen that’s the kind of treatment they got and some of it was pretty raunchy. 21:32 After it was all over you were given a certificate having been honored by King Neptune and that you crossed the equator on such and such a date. Which brings up an interesting point, my wife’s brother at that time, who was a high school buddy of mine, and two other fellows did a lot of singing. And one way to keep from getting sea sick was to get up on deck, so we’d get up there and sing as a quartet just for fun, so we slept on deck one night and when we woke up in the morning we had nothing in our pockets. 22:07 Somebody had stripped our pockets including the certificate I had received from King Neptune, so I have never had one since. I do not have any indelible proof that I went across the equator Interviewer: “Did you carry any personal items with you on your trip over.” 9 �The few dollars we had and our personal luggage, which was in what we called a G.I. bag with all our clothes and whatever and that was it, personal stuff, no. Do you want a little humor interspersed into this, or not necessarily? Interviewer: “Of course.” We had a 1st Sergeant who lived in Holland who was what I would call the epitome of what a soldier should be. 23:03 By that I mean he knew what he was doing, he was a fatherly figure, he was considerably older than most of us, a very kind, judgmental, fair minded individual and he hardly ever, only twice in my personal experience with him, that he violated the law or rules and I was with him both times it happened. The first time was, he had this barracks bag over his shoulder and he was walking off of the gang plank into the ship and he got about the first flight down and he lost his barracks bag and in the bottom of the bag was a bottle of scotch. He sobbed over that bottle of scotch. We weren’t supposed to have personal stuff and he had that personal bottle of scotch. 23:53 Interviewer: “Did he have a name?” VanAndroy, Gordon and I, we must have talked about Sergeant VanAndroy. Interviewer: “What was you impression of the Australian soldiers?” “May I digress for just a minute here?” I’m trying to throw in here what I think is significant and if you don’t want me to do that let me know. 24:23 When we left San Francisco, we were told all about the people in the Pacific, well Gordon might have shared with you, within an hour out of San Francisco the sea sickness set in. Imagine 7400 troops on one ship and once that starts it gets contagious and so much for that, I don’t want to go any further than that. Then we went between Tasmania and Australia and we were in the wildest sea you ever saw and this is a huge ship and to this day, since 10 �I loved to skate, I thought, “wouldn’t it be wonderful if I had roller skates and when the stern came up you could just go down the hull and when it flipped back you could turn around and go back and you could do that all day long.” 25:12 Anyway, I didn’t get sea sick. Now I ducked the question. The Australian people were wonderful. Gordon was there a couple of years ago and he probably shared with you. Anytime I see or talk with anyone who’s been there recently I want to talk to them because I want to find out if my memories are the same as what things are today. I have yet to run into a person who doesn’t love the Australians. The Australian soldiers, that was an interesting case in that not only, if you watch British TV or BBC the Brits have a style of humor that is so dry well, the Aussies are like that, very much like that. 26:08 When you consider who we fought with in New Guinea, we fought with Australian soldiers who had fought in Syria, Libya, Crete, Egypt and haven’t been home. They went straight from Libya and Crete to New Guinea without even having a chance to go home. Can you imagine? Now, not only did they have an Australian, British sense to life, they also had a devil may care attitude and let me qualify that. The American army, we were trained sound discipline, tight discipline to the point where it was just gospel with us. We would even tape our dog tags so we didn’t make noise while on patrol. 26:58 Those Australians, when it came 3:00 in the afternoon, they could care less where they were or under what situation, you’ve heard of billycans, well they had to boil their tea. There were two principles we were taught and one was noise. “How do you boil tea in a tin can without making noise?” and number two “How can you conceal your location by building a fire?” That would scare us and we would avoid them at that time because they could care less. Now I often 11 �wondered if it was their makeup or if they had been in battle so long, they didn’t care. 27:36 I don’t know what the answer to that is, but they are wonderful people. Interviewer: “What training did you receive in Australia, if any?” Pretty much the same as what we had in Louisiana and in Fort Devens, Massachusetts. We were still for some silly reason being trained for open warfare and I am convinced that our leaders didn’t have a clue as to what jungle warfare was like and if they did, it took us quite a while to learn all the nuances because, just for example, coral shells, Coral hardpan, something we didn’t have a clue of and I’ll expand on that a little bit. By this time I was a 2nd Lieutenant in the pre-WWII army and a 2nd Lieutenant was pretty hot stuff. You had a G.I. to do all your grunt work for you and that particular night, the very first night we were in New Guinea, we were bombed and we were told to dig foxholes. 28:51 I figured I was a Lieutenant and somebody would do it for me until the first or second bombing and there was a Lieutenant Colonel with a pick ax digging a hole in the shale and I thought, “if he has to do it, I guess that I have to do it too”. The answer to that is, “How do you make a foxhole deep enough in shale, rock and coral to protect yourself?” That’s the first lesson in tropical warfare. The second is obvious, in addition to climbing, rain, rain, rain, mosquitoes and everything else, but jungle foliage is so thick that unless you see it on TV it’s pretty difficult to explain. 29:33 In fact it’s almost unbelievable when you do try to explain it. And you may or may not get into the story about the airplane I lost . You ask the question,” why sixteen years?” well, I can give you an answer to that. Interviewer: “What were your experiences leaving Australia? How did you reach the island?” 12 �Except for the unit that Gordon was with, Gordon Zuverink is who we are talking about and who you interviewed before, the 2nd Battalion 126th Infantry, which was comprised of 2 units from Muskegon, Grand Haven and Big Rapids, they were close to new Guinea as I think was Gordon’s unit, Cannon Compan, I’m almost certain it was, and an anti-tank company of the 126th. The rest of us went by ship from Brisbane Australia and again, I don’t know when you want to cut this off, but I think this is significant in terms of what I call logistics. 30:39 When we left Adelaide Australia to go to Brisbane Australia, we loaded everything on flat cars and box cars and at that time Australia had 3 railroad gauges. Maybe you heard this before and maybe you didn’t. We got to Melbourne and took everything off the train and re- loaded it on another train because they had a different gauge. Then, I don’t know if we got beyond Sydney or not, when we got into the 3rd gauge. 31:10 We took everything off that train and put it on the next train so that, plus the passenger cars, which were rather antiquated. “Does that answer your question?” Interviewer: “On to New Guinea. Did you understand the mission as you left Australia?” We did, we did because things were crucial at that point. The obvious question is, “what are we doing over here when were supposed to be going to Europe?” The answer is obvious. President Roosevelt had promised MacArthur troops and there weren’t any outside of the Australians so they sent the 32nd Division from the east coast and right behind us was the 41st Division who replaced us in New Guinea, so that would give you roughly 18,000 – 19,000 troops, two divisions and then the Marines. First the Marines were there and they went to Guadalcanal, so we were it as far as New Guinea was 13 �concerned. 32:23 When we left Australia to go to Port Moresby the Japanese were roughly 25 miles from Port Moresby. The significance of that is, number one, it was on the forward slope of the mountain facing Australia and number two, there were two airstrips there that would have given them the capability of taking their fighters and bombers and flying over Australia. 32:56 And whether or not you’ve ever been involved in history to the degree that I am going to share with you, the Australian government at that time had pre-determined that they were willing to give up a portion of their country for a battleground. Therefore, there was a line established from east to west. You’ve heard of the Siegfreid line in Europe, well this was the Brisbane Line and the Brisbane Line was an arbitrary line across the country yet the Japanese landed on north like in Darwin and this is where we put up our defense. Well it didn’t get to that point. They did bomb Darwin, but no one landed in Australia. 33:40 We landed in Port Moresby New Guinea as did the Australian Cavalry in that case and chased them back over the mountains to what became the Buna campaign, so that again precipitates a lot of questions. The first question is “what kind of training did you have?” Well, we didn’t have much training because as it turned out in addition to trying to live under tropical conditions, we were hit with immediate dysentery. Immediately. Plus, if you follow the field manual on leadership you will find there is such a thing as a staging area, then there’s a departure area and then there’s a final line of departure and then you go into combat. 31:31 Well, there wasn’t such a thing in Port Moresby. Port Moresby was the Port and within three miles you were climbing mountains so there was no place to train. So that was it, the disease hit us before we ever started up the mountain and Gordon’s unit as you know from the interview, they took three or four days from Port Moresby 14 �across the mountains chasing the Japanese all the way. The Australians, they took one route and we started on, in our case, November 10, the airplane incident you might want me to talk about and we chased the Japanese all the rest of the way to what became the Buna Campaign. The reason it became the Buna Campaign, we compressed them to a point and they wouldn’t give so that’s why it took them so long to get to the sea. 35:26 Interviewer: “You mentioned a little bit about the disease and terrain, but how did you deal with morale, was there a loss of morale among the men?” Not at this point, not at this point, weakness, but no, I don’t remember seeing any loss of morale until we started seeing our friends getting killed. Then the morale changed, but even then we kept on going because it’s amazing how you condition your mind in a situation like that. Most do, not all , but most do. 36:05 Interviewer: “Tell us what happened aboard the airplane. Were you aboard the airplane?” Well, I was and that is an interesting story, a story in itself. The 1st. and 3rd. Battalions of the 126th Infantry, we were involved in the first airlift into a combat zone in the history of the U.S. Army. The group that Mr.Zuverink was with went up the mountains in advance of us and they, along with the natives I’m sure because I never did find out officially how this happened, but there was a flat area in a native village called Pongani, which was on the side of the mountain and they had to take their machetes and chop grass until it was smooth enough for us to land. There had to be an officer on each airplane and I was assigned two airplanes because my platoon couldn’t possibly fit on one plane plus there were some additional troops for some other reasons that happened to be on those two airplanes. One airplane was called the “Flying Dutchman” and since I’m from Holland 15 �obviously and the pilot was of Dutch extraction, American, but of Dutch extraction, I just made up my mind that I would fly on the “Flying Dutchman.” 37:27 The other plane was called “Golden Eight Ball.” The chaplain and I were standing side by side and I said “Chaplain, I think I am going on the “Flying Dutchman” and he said “why don’t we flip a coin?” We did and he went on the “Flying Dutchman and I went on the “Golden eight Ball” and the “Flying Dutchman crashed about of a half hour after they were airborne into the jungles. 37:50 I don’t think Gordon would have spent any time on that because he was way beyond that point. There is a very, very in depth story about that, that you can embellish at a later date if you want. Out of the original 29, including the crew, there were eventually 6 survivors in two groups. One group of 4, which included my platoon Sergeant out of Jamestown, Michigan and 2 who included the crew chief of the airplane. The rest were either killed on impact or had broken arms and legs. A couple went looking for water or some semblance of a trail and were never heard from again. 38:44 those who did stay near the airplane died one at a time. They kept a diary on the inside of the door of that airplane, which partially had burned in a fire, and the first entry was dated November 10, the date of our operation and the last entry was January 1. For your information that door is on display at the Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton Ohio now and I tried to get it to Holland Memorial Day because I was the speaker there and I thought it would be ideal to get it into our museum, but even our U.S. Congressman couldn’t get them to part with it so I would encourage anyone who ever does go there to be sure and look it up. 39:28 It is on a table encased in glass and there is a printed diary and I have a copy of the diary myself, plus I have a diary of my platoon Sergeant who land navigated for, I think I sent you a copy of the story of he and I in the newspaper. He 16 �took the compass out of the dash of the airplane and he and 5 others land navigated for 30 days over the mountains until they were finally intercepted by some friendly natives who brought them back to Port Moresby. It was incredible. 40:05 The obvious question is, “Why did it take 16 years to find that airplane?” Former president Jerry Ford was our congressman at the time and I was, I don’t know, a Major or a Lieutenant Colonel in the National guard and I had written to him and said “if you hear of any airplanes that are found, because I had been reading about it, named such and such, contact me” and it was a few days later that the AP called me and said that the airplane was had been found. Now this is 16 years after it went down. 21 years after it went down another research team went in and found the airplane, took the door off and brought it to the museum in Papua New Guinea, which is unheard of when we were there, but they did and they in turn gave it to the U.S. Air Force. 41:02 That’s an interesting story, it’s a tragic story, but how they land navigated through that jungle for that many days is, and the interesting thing is that by the time Ed, my platoon Sergeant finally did get back to Port Moresby, I had been pretty much clobbered with malaria and I’m laying in a hospital bed looking out the window in Moresby and he walked by. Needless to say that having been his platoon commander, I had to send a missing in action envelope back to his wife and I said to him, “Ed, get to a cablegram as fast as you can and let your wife know where you are.” He hadn’t even gotten malaria by that time and I just can’t imagine that because 83% of us did and he hadn’t gotten malaria at that time. 41:57 That’s a long way from the airplane ride, but it did save, in our case we only had to walk 11 days through those mountains where Gordon and that group walked 34 days, so it did save us a lot of time, but it was still rough. 17 �Interviewer: “Can you explain your first experience with the enemy or in a combat situation?” I am going to proceed with caution here because the last thing you want to hear is some of the things we really experienced and you’re not going to hear that from very many people. I will tell you this; to psychologically adjust to some of the things that you might run into is a “work in progress” and that is a cliché today. Coming down the mountain, “do you have in your notes the airplane story about shooting down the Japanese Zero?” I’ve got to inject that. Were coming down the mountain now and were heading into combat. We were given absolute instruction, “no fires, do not give your position away, the Japanese are going to be looking for you, they know you’re up in the mountains, so don’t shoot at any airplanes. 43:19 We were on the forward slope of the mountain and by that time this Japanese Zero was harassing us to the point where someone couldn’t take it any longer and he had a clear shot with his rifle at this airplane coming right straight at him straight down the valley and he fired off a round. The hilarious part of it is that he must have hit the gas line because that airplane went down in flames “right now in a second”. If he was up there trying to find out where we were and radio back, he never had a chance, but you would have thought you were at a U of M football game hearing those guys cheer, it was absolutely incredible. 44:02 That’s our first close combat experience although we had been bombed frequently back in Port Moresby. Harassed. Getting back into combat, were coming down the mountain and you begin hearing the rifle shots and machine gun shots and we knew what that was. That’s when it starts getting real and that’s when you start working yourself into, it gets real. The first observation we made is this; the Japanese you may have heard many times, had a way of, 18 �let me put it this way, if your on the offense and their on the defense and they’ve had a series of defensive positions coming down the mountain, pre planned and that’s an interesting story in its self if you want to get back to it. 45:05 Why we didn’t use their locations and there is a good answer to that, anyway, once we can compress them against the sea were not going anyplace very fast. They know were coming, they’ve had lots of time to dig in under coconut logs and bunkers and I’m sure you’ve heard and read all that. They had their fire lanes and by fire lanes I mean their machine guns are tucked across this way, so you’re going to get somebody sooner or later When you’re in grass 68 feet high and you’re trying to get through it, you don’t have a clue when you’re going to be able to get through without being detected. So the Japanese would have fire lanes, pre planned, so if anybody exposed themselves, all they had to do is pull the trigger and so you had to find out where those were. 45:57 The way they operated, they were up in coconut trees and they were observing. They would telegraph who was coming and who they were and that sort of thing. The very first Japanese casualty I saw really set the tone of our attitude because remember, killing is something you’re trained not to do. The very first person that got shot out of a tree, right outside of our headquarters was a Japanese Captain. He had a saber with him and he came out of that tree and landed right in front of us, so we went through his pockets to check and get military information as fast as we could. Would you believe the very first picture I saw was USC, University of Southern California, that’s a turnoff if there ever was one. You’d think that having been in this country in itself would have kept him from doing that. That was the first one. The first experience I had taking out a patrol and I’ll qualify that. When I was commissioned in Australia, just before going to New Guinea, my assignment was to command an anti-tank 19 �platoon. Well, whoopty-do, there are no tanks in New Guinea and there are no tanks to shoot at. So what do they do with me? Well, they made me a patrol leader and that’s not conducive to good health because you never know where you’re going to go and you’re usually in some area that you prefer not to be. 47:36 The very first patrol I took out, and to this day I don’t understand with all that tension why we had so much self control, you should understand that the average trail was no wider than this table and the rest is foliage, were at a curve in the trail and here comes a string of Orientals. Now I don’t know about you but to this day I have a tough time determining who is Japanese, who is Chinese and in some cases Filipino, so when you’re in that kind of situation with that kind of tension and something like that happens, “what do you do?” For some unknown reason or other I said, “don’t shoot” and this guy had no uniform and he held up his hands and said, “don’t shoot, me no Japan boy, me China boy”, and he must have had 14 or 15 with him. Now the Japanese use the Chinese as coolies to do all their grunt work and carry all their stuff like we used the New Guinea natives to carry our rice and all that stuff. So needless to say, if you know anything about military intelligence, if you did capture a Japanese soldier there is no way your going to get any information, no way, if they were alive and they wouldn’t let themselves live and you couldn’t do anything about it. 49:10 These Chinese boys were obviously a good source of intelligence so I sent them back to our intelligence people and they interrogated them and I’m sure they learned a lot. Beyond that a question anyone would ask is “did you kill anybody personally, how many?” and that sort of thing. I’m not going to go there, but I will say this, “one of the peculiarities of jungle warfare is that if the average American, the average person knew how many Japanese they killed, they would be astonished and the 20 �reason is, we had to fire against sound. Most of the time, we didn’t see them. I will give you one example and this is later on about the time that we penetrated through. 50:05 My experience was heavy weapons, machine guns, mortars and that sort of thing. There was a Captain out of Grand Rapids by the name of Russ Wyle, who was a heavy weapons unit commander and he and I got along just famously well for a lot of reasons, but one reason was that he and I understood heavy weapons. When we were in combat, we were at the mercy of ammunition that was kicked out of airplanes. We had no other supply we didn’t have a vehicle. We had nothing, so you can imagine what ammunition looks like when it’s kicked out of an airplane that is flying on its side and food incidentally, that’s a story in itself . 50:38 Anyway we salvaged what we could of the 81MM rounds and we stacked 3 mortars side by side maybe an arm’s length apart and the Japanese were very predictable, I said for example, that as they went down the mountain they had, what I would call, a headquarters base along the trail. They figured those lazy Yankees will just use our base and we did, we went across the trail. Then the Japanese Navy would shell where they had been assuming that we were there and we were just across the trail. Very predictable. They always left stacks of rice, stacks of Sake and a lot of other stuff, which communicated that they weren’t in too healthy condition. 51:35 We didn’t touch and rice or any Sake period. It could have been poisoned or it could have been booby trapped, we don’t know so we left it alone. This Captain and I, we got our heads together one day and decided that since the Japanese had a tendency to get drunk on Sake, if you left them alone long enough. We would do that and then we would stock pile any ammo we could get and when they decided to get drunk, we just poured it to them. 52:10 And if you left them alone for two weeks they would do the same thing again and that’s how 21 �we won the war. Incidentally, I think I sent you a picture of the Japanese Colonel that he and I went to the commanding Generals staff college together. That’s interesting, very interesting. Many may not appreciate it, but I thought it was quite nice. Interviewer: “Do you remember the first casualty you saw?” Yes, I sure do. I had a direct appointment from Sergeant to 2nd Lieutenant, which is unusual, as did my wife’s brother and my cousin who became the vice President of Hayworth and died a couple of weeks ago. There were 9 of us, I think, out of 9600 who were commissioned by direct appointment through written and oral examinations and the question, I’m deviating a little bit. What was the question again? 53:16 Interviewer: “What was the first casualty you saw?” The first casualty I saw just happened to be a young Lieutenant that was commissioned the same day we were and this was maybe the second day we were in combat. I was again leading a patrol along the trail and there he was lying off the side of the road. I’m not going to explain the condition he was in, but that was the first one. Every once in a while you would run into one or you would hear about one. You get morning reports telling you who got killed and from what unit and that sort of thing. That’s the tough part. We had again, since my brother in law and I were commissioned, your natural tendency is that your enlisted buddies are your buddies, but in the military there is a line of demarcation between being a buddy and being a leader, so they transferred us out of the Holland unit into the Grand Rapids unit so we could be away from our direct contacts. There was one particular morning, for some reason or other, I just walked across the trail, maybe 100 yards and chatted with some of my buddies from Holland. 54:45 I went back to my unit and within 10 minutes, 12 of them were killed. They just 22 �happened to get hit by a Japanese Navy barrage and I was that close to being there with them. That’s tough. That is really tough. Interviewer: “I have to ask you about MacArthur. How did you view MacArthur?” I don’t think I’m in the minority, I hope I’m not in the minority, and I don’t want to create the impression that I’m a brilliant tactician, but I do think that it’s fair for me to say that one of the reasons my wife’s brother and I were commissioned Lieutenants is that we probably look at the big picture and that’s why we became officers. I heard a lot of guys complaining about MacArthur when we were in combat and we were in combat to the point we were, I think, down to somewhere around 10% of our original troops strength by the time we were replaced. 56:03 I don’t think the average person had a clue as to why and the reason why is there was no alternative. You had to hold the ground with what you had. Therefore, we took a terrible beating physically and many other ways. I personally, the very first time I heard General MacArthur speak was about a week before we went into combat. I would have gone through a brick wall for that man. No question about it. 56:30 Then once I became a casualty, I mean a malaria casualty, the first experience I had with him was, we were outside the combat zone and refresher teaching 81 MM mortar and the army regulations say that “upon a visitation by an inspecting officer, the assisting instructor shall report to the inspector.” Now you heard and seen all about MacArthur with his flag flying and all that stuff and I just happened to look up and there stood MacArthur leaning up against a tree sucking on his corn cob pipe. There wasn’t any evidence of anyone else around, so I sent my assistant instructor over to report to him like your supposed to and he said “just keep doing what your doing, I just want to see what your doing.” 57:24 That was the first time, the second time was, 23 �we were in a casualty area where we were being rehabilitated, in New Guinea and the officers, needless to say, were separated from the enlisted men and some of us, I wasn’t one of them, but some of the officers bought Australian horses. This was back in Australia and we built a corral and we rode horses. The nurses rode horses and we all rode horses. One day MacArthur came showing up and he was death on booze, really death on booze and would you believe where he met us was a junction between the officers quarters and the post and above the post was a sign “Bottle Boulevard”. 58:12 I thought, “boy were going to get chewed here” and he looked up and he said “gentlemen it looks like the morale must be pretty good here”. Now, the man had an ego that wouldn’t quit, no question about it. If you analyze why he was what he was and the condition under which he had to fight, with his arms tied behind him, because if you read history in depth, you find out the first team is in Europe, no question, two reasons, the first reason is obvious, political, the second reason was in terms of distance, the third reason was that right here in this city, you have Polish, you have Jews, you have Catholics, you have protestants, you have Dutch and in those days people could identify with their families, therefore, their families in the Netherlands or wherever were being punished and therefore, we should go and help them no question, but who ever heard of Buna, New Guinea? 59:15 That’s part of the problem. The other part of the problem was that professionally, General Macarthur had some buddies that didn’t like him too well because he bypassed them in a hurry getting promoted and he was, as one person classified him as the American Caesar. I have to throw this in, Senator Fredricks, a state Senator at that time and I were invited to a 100th anniversary celebration of MacArthur’s birthday in Norfolk Virginia and we were personal guests of Mrs. MacArthur at a dinner 24 �and Sunday morning we joined her for “The Memoirs”, the movie, the bio. We were in the bookstore and there were two books there. “Macarthur the American Caesar” and “the Memoirs” or something like that and I said “Mrs. Macarthur would you sign this, autograph this for me?” She said “I will that, but not that one.” She just despised that other book, American Caesar. Past 60 minutes to :21 on the same tape. We had a close relationship. Other than that, because of my long involvement with the military since WWII, it is only natural that I would study the tactics and strategy and when you think of what the man had to do, he did a great job and if you look at his casualty percentages for the real estate he took, he did a commendable job. :50 I wasn’t too comfortable with the Truman firing of MacArthur, but at that time I was a student at Commanding General Staff College and some of the faculty were members of MacArthur’s staff and so I shared with them what my personal feeling was and they said, “you may feel that way, but you must remember the president of the United States is the president of the United States.” MacArthur was insubordinate, no doubt about it he was. 1:21 Interviewer: “In a couple of sentences, how would you sum up your experiences in the Pacific?” The most difficult thing was time and distance. We couldn’t tell our families where we were. “Somewhere in the South Pacific” that’s pretty general, so when your family reads about what’s going on in the Pacific they can come to all kind of assumptions, they don’t have a clue if you are in New Guinea, Guadalcanal, or where you are as compared to today with videos and we have a grandson who is a Calvin student and he is sending us communications through his laptop computer. That’s the most difficult thing, worrying 25 �about the people back home and their worrying about you and your not getting you mail for 30 days, so your disconnected from the world. 2:32 26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SikkelW1 Title A name given to the resource Sikkel, William (Interview transcript and video, 1 of 2), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sikkel, William Description An account of the resource William A. Sikkel joined the Michigan National Guard before World War II and served in the army on active duty between 1940 and 1945 in the 126th Regiment, 32nd "Red Arrow" Division. He attended Officer Candidate School before the division shipped out to the Pacific and served in Australia and New Guinea as a platoon and company commander and as a staff officer. He remained in the National Guard after the war, and also served as mayor of Holland, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Van Til, Anita (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e1db11f86138980e9034c3308866116.mp4 75ee17f6255fe14b132c7f75fe83628d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7b6a8eb87b6789612c21acd97150d67.pdf 02309b6852ab298074b000f323318430 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WILLIAM SIKKEL #2 Interview Date: 11/07/05 Transcribed: May 6, 2007 by Joan Raymer The enlistment was about a hundred. I think the last numbers we had were 104 or about that. They changed it because too many were leaving. I took a patrol one day and I passed out. I don’t have a clue how I got back to port. All I know is when I came to we were a hundred and some miles away and I was loaded on an airplane. I didn’t have a clue as to how it happened. 0:31 The first thing I remember is the nurse told me I had a 105.6° temperature. Interviewer: “You were close to boiling.” That was pretty high. I was wrapped in an ice pack and Cannon towels. 0:44 Interviewer: “Were you ever injured?” That is a joke because we used to kid some individuals as being recipients of a Purple Heart because they cut their finger in a can. I was nicked so little on my leg that it wasn’t worth going to the aid station with, so I didn’t. 1:27 I remember one bullet coming by my head so close that I could feel the heat, but I wasn’t hit. I guess that is a good way to answer the question. “I wasn’t hit.” malaria and the rest of the diseases that came with it, was about all that I could handle. Interviewer: “One of the problems we keep hearing about is supplies and problems getting supplies.” “How did this affect the men?” I think what hurt us most and I’m sure Gordon must have touched on this, when you kick canned food such as corned beef out of an airplane and if it is lucky enough to hit the ground, sometimes it would miss and go into the belly of the airplane, because the 1 �temperature was such that if you didn’t eat it right away it was going to spoil. 2:30 You can imagine what condition those cans were in after they hit. The thing that bothered us the most, at least me was, “have you heard about the rice in the sock? Have you heard that?” You couldn’t cook it. We had no fire, so whatever you did have, you couldn’t cook it so you couldn’t eat it. That bothered more than anything else. 2:52 Try to eat rice that is soaked in a can all night. It doesn’t get very soft. Canned goods, whatever they were, were eaten cold is cold that’s it. Interviewer: “At night in the jungle, what was it like?” Strange, because you never know if your going to make it through the night intact or not. The biggest problem is obvious, it was mosquitoes. 3:47 There was no way to avoid them. We did have some spray cans, but we were either wet from rain or wet from sweat so any spraying you did was almost meaningless. We were given order to keep our pants on. The only clothes we had were what we had on so your hands are bare from your shirt on down and in the morning your hands and wrists were pretty raw from where the mosquitoes went to work on you. 4:21 Because the anopheles mosquito was prevalent, “How do you avoid malaria? There is no way.” That is by far the worst. I sent you a picture of an individual on a rack of branches about a foot above the water. You just can’t comprehend what some of the jungle is like. I did send you a picture of the individual walking in the mud with the boot. Once you walk on the trail with 50, 60 or 100 people, it becomes a quagmire in a hurry. 4:53 So night time, that and the uncertainty of what might happen, but you get so fatigued you get in your little foxhole and you go to sleep. There are exceptions though, I remember we threw cold water on a guy who had a nightmare and then we told him to shut up and we threw some sod at him. 2 �Well in the morning when we got up, he was dead. 5:19 He had a heart attack and died. We didn’t know that, we just tried to shock him out of his delirium. You can’t get away from the rain. There is no way you can get away from the rain and that is difficult. You can’t get away from the hot sun. That is difficult and the humidity is incredible so nighttime was no relief in the jungle. Along the shore it was wonderful. It was wonderful anyplace along the shore. 5:53 There was a nice breeze and that is where you wanted to be. But that was limited to about 2 miles. Interviewer: “How were orders given and received during the Buna Campaign?” Very interesting question and the reason it is interesting is this. How we were trained. We were trained to receive orders by message blanks, arm and hand signals and radio orders. In the jungle the first orders were to take off all of your insignia. So if you met somebody you didn’t have a clue what kind of a rank they had. The second thing we learned was that arm and hand signals were suicide. 6:37 These Japanese, being up in the trees, more often than not would see you coming and all I had to do was give a hand signal and they would know that I was the leader. So you had to think of almost a whispering campaign. I remember a Captain friend of mine, he got so paranoid that it was months after we got out of combat and he still whispered for fear of being hurt. 7:03 I guess that pretty much answers your question. It was a whole different means of communication. I can give you one humorous example, at the time it was pathetic, but it is humorous. We were going into an open field, what I call an open field was a field with 6-7 feet of grass and a trail down the middle and coconut logs here and there. I knew that because I had been through there before. When you’re around the perimeter, you’re in cocoanut trees and you don’t know from now until then if you’re going to be observed. 3 �So you run the chance of running across this open field to get in the grass. I had a guy ahead of me, usually when I had a patrol out you get to know who are the savvy leaders and who are the followers, you can say “you were a Lieutenant why weren’t you up front?”, well you can’t have control when up in front and on the other hand , you don’t want to be a coward and be the last one. 8:02 So you compromise and I would usually compromise by being the second or third one from the front. I would brief them before we went as to what we could expect, if I knew what to expect. Several areas I knew what to expect. This one guy, I don’t know how I could get through to that guy and make him listen, so I said, “when you get on that trail you’re going to see a great big coconut log across the trail.” “Don’t go over it, go around it because if they see you go over it they are going to shoot you.” Would you believe he went over it and they got him right in the rear. Well, I said, “now do you understand what I was talking about?” That’s training the hard way, but I tried to tell them in advance what was going to happen. That is one way of leadership. If you look at arm and hand signals and the mortality rate of 2nd Lieutenants, you’re going to find that percentage wise it is very high. 9:08 The reason is that with arm and hand signals you’re so trained to lead that it is almost a given, “how do you communicate without doing it?” “If you turn around to talk, you’re a dead duck so you have to figure out other ways.” Interviewer: “Were you a man of faith before you went?” “Oh absolutely.” Interviewer: “Has that changed?” “Yes, it has strengthened.” There is a correlation there that I think has some bearing. 9:42 It just so happens that the night before my 22nd birthday, which happened to be 4 �Thanksgiving day, so were coming up on that too, my now brother-in-law, who became my brother-in-law, but at that time my “buddy” who was a 2nd Lieutenant and a machine gunner, said to me “when we get back to Holland, what are you going to do?” 10:02 I said “one, I am going to buy a sailboat and two, I am going to contribute to the community to the best of my ability.” I was 21 years old now. That night I was selected to run the first night patrol on the Sanananda trail. The day patrol was suicide and the night patrol was unheard of, but for some reason or other that’s what the old man said he wanted. 10:25 So I went up to the battalion commander that at that time happened to be Major George Bond out of Adrian Michigan and my company commander and the Chaplain and I emptied my pockets and I handed everything to the Chaplain and I told him that if I don’t come back to send this to my mother. 10:43 I guess that is something that you cannot forget. The next day her brother was clobbered with a mortar shell. I survived that day I don’t know, faith maybe. Therein lies a real question of theology. Her brother was killed in Anzio , but if it hadn’t been that her brother was wounded overseas, I wouldn’t have ended up with his sister. 11:19 You look at fate in so many ways. Temporary conversions, I saw lots of that. We saw lots of that, but faith ran real silent in the individuals. You could just tell by their demeanor how comfortable they were with what was going on. “Did I send you a copy of the diary of this Lieutenant that died?” I have one with me and it is something you should have. This was a friend of mine. He was a 27-year-old Lieutenant at the time out of I Company, which is a Grand Rapids unit, but he was a reserve officer. 11:59 Now you understand that one of the things your going to end up with in this interview is the differences, communication being one, evacuation being another. Here is a man who is wounded by the Japanese; we 5 �can hear him holler for help. Someone sent a Captain, a Lieutenant, a medic and a Sergeant, all out of Grand Rapids and all killed trying to save the Lieutenant. So the order came out “no more”. Not too long after that I was sent out on patrol and on my way back I decided on my own “I’m going to see if I can find Lieutenant Horton”. Well I found Lieutenant Horton, but he had died. 12:43 He wrote a diary while he was dying and it is awesome and I have it here, but the next to the last paragraph says something like this. “I have a pistol and I could kill myself, but for some reason or other I don’t think that God has that plan for me.” Then he said, “I now know how Christ felt on the cross.” That is pretty heavy stuff. Anyway, I did find him and I did take his personal effects and I did turn it in to the next higher command and it’s now history. Interviewer: “When you came back to West Michigan, did you visit any of the families of the men who died over there?” I did, but I don’t know if I should go here. You might want to cut this off. 13:41 I am morally compelled to tell you this story and if you want to follow through on a different interview that’s fine. One of the men that left us in Louisiana, and I think I alluded to that earlier, from Zeeland, a wonderful friend of mine, I talked to you about it before we started taping, ended up as a prisoner of war in Tunisia, spent 2 ½ years in Germany as a prisoner of war and when I came home from overseas his mother called me and said, ”when you go visit him at Percy Jones Hospital”, by this time he is a Captain, he’s sitting on the floor in a hallway at Percy Jones, in a robe, staring off into space. 14:33 I stuck my hand out to shake hands with him and he jerked his hand back and he said, “Bill, for some reason I have an aversion to shaking hands.” His family was thrilled because that was the first time he had talked. He had shock treatments and all that and eventually he 6 �regained his ability, but there is a part of his life that is gone. He later ended up with a Dr. of Divinity degree out of Duke University and had a wonderful family and a wonderful career. He finished a book about two weeks ago and he sent me a copy with honors. 15:06 That’s wrong and there were others naturally. There were 2 brothers killed in one day out of our outfit and naturally I went to see that family and others. Interviewer: “Tell us what kinds of diseases you had other than malaria.” It started out with dysentery and that needless to say weakened us to start with. Then malaria, tropical ulcers, which is external on the legs, typhus, hookworm, ringworm and I don’t know what else. 15:48 Jaundice, I have never gotten a straight answer on that one. We ran out of Quinine because the Japanese had gotten a hold of it in Java so when we ran out of Quinine right about that time they had come up with a formula called Atabrine that you have probably heard about. We are convinced of one of two things, either the product hadn’t been field tested enough or there were rumors that it had been sabotaged. 16:22 We started taking that and two things happened. Number one, we became yellow and really jaundiced and whether that was a product of the yellow tablet, I don’t have any idea to this day. I do know they certainly improved the technique of controlling malaria. Interesting side here as I have shared with you before, our first campaign had 83% malaria and our second campaign, which was the Aitape Campaign, someone conceived the brilliant idea of going over with bombers first and spraying with oil and DDT. 17:06 They reduced the incidence, I am talking replacement troops, down to 6% and the third down to 1% just by going over before and killing off the mosquitoes before going in. I don’t think anything compares with malaria; I never realized how serious it was until I discovered my own personal malaria with 6 months to go and spending time in the 7 �hospital. When you consider the people in foreign countries today who die because of malaria, it is unbelievable. Interviewer: “Considering injuries and sickness, how were people evacuated?” That is a very interesting question and I am very glad you asked it. With today’s mindset of helicopters and medevac and all that stuff, we didn’t even have a Jeep. We had nothing except hand carry. 18:12 What I mean by hand carry, until we were well into the campaign when we finally did get a Jeep that was brought in with an airplane, we had a hand carry. Elaine’s brother for example, he was wounded and operated on in a thatch roof hut with a mud floor and no windows and they used a flashlight for surgery and then carried 6 miles back to another hospital out in an open field, which was bombed incidentally and eventually over the mountain to New Guinea. So most of our medevac was hand carry. Plasma was almost unheard of so the mortality rate compared to today’s combat was very high. 19:01 Interviewer: “We are going to totally change now. Who was there to meet you when you came home to Holland?” Well my dad had died a week before I went overseas so the first thing I did was check in with my mother because I was the oldest of 5 kids. I had a brother in the Air Force at the time. The second thing I did was run over to see my buddy’s family who lived a few blocks away. To greet us when we cam under the San Francisco Bridge and pulled into the dock, the band was playing and of course that was fabulous and other than that I was a troop commander of a train from San Francisco to Fort Sheridan Illinois so we were not a unit, we were all individuals on that train and we went our separate ways from Fort Sheridan home. 20:04 My mother, sisters and younger brother were all happy to see me 8 �as were my grandma and grandpa and the rest and my wife’s mother and dad because I had been friends of the family forever. That was a good homecoming and the people from my church were happy because I was one of the very first people from our church to go on active duty so after 5 years that is quite a while. 20:36 Interviewer: “You said you wanted to buy a sailboat when you returned and you wanted to contribute to your community when you returned.” Well it took me 20 years to get the sailboat, but I did join the Chamber of Commerce and I did join the Salvation Army Advisory board, in fact I’m a life member and still am. I did get involved with the community through the Chamber of Commerce and eventually the Kiwanis Club there and someone came up with the bright idea that I should run for Mayor and that happened. Also, I made U.S. history by being defeated by a youngster fresh out of college. We moved into Allegan County and I became a County Commissioner and I was that for 10 years. 21:27 I guess that I lived up to my promise that I would make a commitment to my community. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SikkelW2 Title A name given to the resource Sikkel, William (Interview transcript and video, 2 of 2), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sikkel, William Description An account of the resource William A. Sikkel joined the Michigan National Guard before World War II and served in the army on active duty between 1940 and 1945 in the 126th Regiment, 32nd "Red Arrow" Division. He attended Officer Candidate School before the division shipped out to the Pacific and served in Australia and New Guinea as a platoon and company commander and as a staff officer. He remained in the National Guard after the war, and also served as mayor of Holland, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Van Til, Anita (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b9ac65c2eaed5585d3f3d71251af9cf.mp4 0c639a377775bd52b68f75c64fe1d933 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4fec516bd3ba89b80ff9394fcdb8fc6.pdf fbe9c1f4cd3cb51ed8c140760e781e2a PDF Text Text GrandValleyStateUniversity Veteran’s History Project World War II Richard Sieglw Interview Total Time () Background  (2:40) Parents were William and Mary Siegle of BostonMassachusetts o Father’s family immigrated from Russia o Grandfather wasn’t married at the time; came to America because he didn’t want to serve in the tsar’s army  Had to marry, so he married his niece o Grandmother had relatives in Pittsburgh, so they stayed there awhile before going to Aliquippa  (4:13) Dr. Siegle’s grandfather escaped on a wagon in a haystack o Paid someone to take him to the border so he could escape from Russia o Grandmother was with him at the time  (4:45) Mentions that the Jewish people had a lot of trouble in Russia, and this was the main reason that his grandfather didn’t want to serve in the tsar’s army  (4:59) Dr. Siegle’s father was born in AliquippaPennsylvania, in May of 1889 o One of 11 children o Grandparents eventually moved to Boston o Grandfather opened up a dry goods store  (5:58) Dr. Siegle’s mother’s parents were also from Russia o His grandfather was a widower left w/6 children o His grandmother was a widow left with 1 child o They had 6 more children  (6:58) Dr. Siegle was an adult before he heard of “stepbrother/stepsister” o Family was cohesive  (7:45) Remembers walking to grandmother’s house with another young boy as a child to see her dog  (9:24) Began his schooling in Dorchester o Went to Hebrew school after day school  (10:58) Mentions that Leonard Bernstein was one of his classmates o His mother and Dr. Siegle’s mother were good friends  (11:40) Talks about his Bar Mitzvah o He was the oldest and the first in his family to be confirmed �            (12:44) Says his father had a high school education; parents couldn’t afford to send him to college o Sold encyclopedias o Became a great salesmen (13:59) The community he grew up in was mixed o At the time, the Catholic church was very anti-Semitic (14:37) Dr. Siegle went to college in the Bronx o New YorkUniversity for his first year o Was a pre-med here (17:20) Applied to transfer to MichiganState in 1933 o Sent a letter to the dean of the VeterinarySchool (18:31) Went to MichiganState for 4 years o Graduated in 1939 (19:00) Before he graduated high school [veterinary school?], he went to the Army Reserve and signed up as a 1st Lieutenant in the Veterinary Corps (19:20) While he was in school, his brother also started veterinary medicine o They lived with someone named Mrs. Alice Depper o Her late husband started the canoe service o Her son was a veterinarian and wanted them to meet o Ended up living with this guy (22:38) Heard about the death of Dr. Thorndyke in Alto o He and Dr. Depper took a ride up there o Considers Dr. Depper to be a mentor  He also worked as an attorney also (25:25) Dr. Siegle’s first job as a veterinarian was fixing a draft horse’s leg o Also took care of a cow who had milk fever (28:57) Lived with the family who bought the Thorndyke’s house; The Rankins o Then lived with a couple named Frank and Linny Klein (29:22) Dr. Siegle used to spay dogs for $4 o Mentioned that his barber was also his anesthesiologist o He had ether at the time for the anesthesia (30:35) Remembers taking care of a colt that couldn’t stand up o There was a fracture o Bandaged it and molded a little cast from a coat hanger, peg, strap iron and some leather belts o Remembers that when he came back from the war, this horse was grown up and plowing the fields �  (33:25) Mrs. Siegle worked in a bank in Alto when Dr. Siegle met her o There was a roller skating party every week o This was where they met o They got married in May of 1941 (35:10) Dr. Siegle also got his draft papers in 1941 during the fall Draft/Military Service  (36:42) After getting the draft notice, Dr. Siegle went to Chicago at the Quartermaster Depot o Stayed here for a year o He was a captain at this point o The colonel said he wanted him to go to England and watch a packing company  (37:26) At this time he had a daughter o Looked for an apartment o Found a home with an elderly lady in south Milwaukee o She was an English older lady  (39:30) Dr. Siegle went by train to PittsburghCalifornia o Got here in early February and didn’t leave until March 7th, 1943 o Then shipped on an ocean liner to New Guinea o Mentions that he was associated with a variety of chaplains  (42:48) In New Guinea, Dr. Siegle worked in food inspection o Lived in a Bachelor Officers Quarters o Said in this part of New Guinea, it was either very hot, or monsoon season o There was one morning where he woke up and his cot was touching the water  (44:20) Dr. Siegle talked about the local people, said some of them were nomads  (45:25) While in New Guinea, he had a jeep o This was one of the things he could do as an officer  (47:31) He could also commandeer a boat that went off the island o Found “cat eye” stones, made jewelry for his wife  (48:55) Mrs. Siegle has many letters to and from her husband while he was overseas o While he was overseas, she spent 6 months at her parents’ house, then another 6 months at his parents’ house, and so on  (50:26) Dr. Siegle also spent time in the Philippines o The natives here were happy to be free from Japanese occupation o But there was a lot of hunger and devastation where he was  (51:50) Met a bacteriologist who taught at a university �         o They went to a leprosarium; said it was a very revealing experience (53:45) Worked in a hospital laboratory here o Hired natives, they also had to screen them o Dr. Siegle said he microscopically screened them (56:12) He was able to ride over to some of the islands (56:32) One time he was a passenger on the General’s DC3 o The pilot made his call, and on the way back, Dr. Siegle asked him to slow down so he could get a good look o Dr. Siegle got to use the joystick o Saw an inactive volcano and other things (58:35) Remembers beautiful sunsets on the island (59:27) One time as they were leaving the mess hall, there were children holding buckets o Dr. Siegle and the others gave them whatever they had left o He said it was so bad, that the food they threw into dumps was scavenged by the people  This was food that was condemned (1:00:40) Talked about the New Guinea natives o Didn’t wear shoes o Believes there was cannibalism many years ago o Natives wore loincloths and grass skirts; upper bodies and heads weren’t covered o By walking barefoot, they developed strong calluses that allowed them to walk over many things (1:01:56) The Filipino natives were dressed differently o More modern o Says they were educated; met some doctors there o They would hire a Filipino lady to do their washing and ironing in the BOQ o Barefoot o Darker skin (1:03:16) November 1945, Dr. Siegle had accumulated points for his 4 years in the military o His wife’s birthday, November 4th, he was told to go on a Liberty Ship o It was full of machinery to take back to the states o About 6-8 of them rode for one month o They landed in Long BeachCalifornia, on December 5th, 1945 (1:06:05) He said the only time his Jewish background had any bearing was just with his �            group as an officer o The other officers only spoke to him once in the Philippines; disliked him because he was Jewish (1:08:35) Came by train to Ft. SheridanIllinois o His wife came up to Ft.Sheridan o Spent time with friends from Minnesota (1:12:12) Dr. Siegle said his time in the service gave him a better appreciation of being an American (1:13:04) He said he’s glad that he didn’t have a combatant job in the army; was away from danger o He had a brother who was in the infantry in the Aleutian Islands o His brother was responsible for opening up an officer’s club; made great food (1:15:35) Lived with his wife’s parents when he got back o Dr. Depper wanted them to stay with them for awhile o Practiced for awhile with Dr. Depper in Grand Ledge (1:17:11) Was invited to go back to Alto o Wasn’t sure if he could make a living there or not (1:19:05) They bought a barn (1:20:05) The interviewer mentions that Dr. Siegle used to take care of their cows (1:20:30) Started to remodel the garage so farmers would have an office to come into o Started to make a hospital for the animals (1:21:50) Father died in 1954 (1:24:20) Had a son who practiced veterinary medicine as well o Gave him his business and it turned out excellent (1:26:00) His son eventually built a new hospital o Got an award for hospital of the year in 1983 (1:27:00) The rest of Dr. and Mrs. Siegle’s children were successful as well � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SiegleR1314V Title A name given to the resource Siegle, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Siegle, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Siegel grew up in Boston, Massachusetts, in a Russian-Jewish family. He attended college and veterinary school at Michigan State University and enlisted in the Army Reserve as a 1st Lieutenant in the Veterinary Corps. After receiving his draft papers in 1941, he went to Chicago and stayed there for a year at the Quartermaster Depot. He then went to England to inspect a packing company. He spent time in New Guinea and the Philippines and inspected various things working in a laboratory. After coming back to the US in 1945, he had a successful life as a veterinarian. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Blough, Ivan (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Lowell Area Historical Museum (Lowell, Mich.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-07-17 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4982af0c9e1190fd2cb06dc57de38944.mp4 92de29df4ccbae1ce33ec1b17497bd59 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb9d5d73f2b20e58882e5b2610f66f3d.pdf 12649dc391ab3f2cc3964d6cbee63051 PDF Text Text Miller Siegel (1:05:31) (00:01) Background Information • Miller was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1917 • His father and grandfather were in the jewelry business • He went to Ottawa Hills High School • Miller went to Grand Rapids Junior College for 2 years then the University of Michigan • In 1939 he received his Masters Degree in business administration • He went to work in Chicago for an accounting firm until he was drafted • Miller took the CPA exam in Ann Arbor and while he was there he went on a blind date with the girl he would eventually marry • He got deferred for a couple months because of work • Miller was inducted on February 22nd and sent to Camp Grant (3:36) Training • He was assigned to the Air Corps and sent to Sheppard Field in Texas for basic training • Miller was then accepted to OCS in Miami Beach, Florida • It was miserable because of the hot and humid weather • He then went to Harvard University’s new Statistical Officer School to learn a new system using Statistic Officers, either personnel or operations • Miller served mostly in operations and graduated on September 13th as a 2nd Lieutenant • He was assigned to Fort George Wright in Spokane, Washington • They stopped and got married on the way out to Washington • Miller was assigned to heavy bombers and sent to a base in Casper, Wyoming • They flew missions with the B-17 bomber and his job was to keep track of the planes • In April he was sent to Air Force Strategic Planning • He was sent with a B-25 group to the “boon docks” for a couple weeks and didn’t really do much �• Miller then took a week long leave back home in Grand Rapids, Michigan • When he got back he was sent to Wendover, UT and flew B-17s with the 317th Bomb Group • He was transferred to Sioux City, Iowa and his wife got pregnant • Then Miller went to Mountain Home, Idaho for a month • In January he was sent to Fort Dix, New Jersey (16:32) Deployment • Miller was shipped overseas in a large convoy • The converted freighter broke down and they lost the convoy for a while • They landed at Glasgow, Scotland and then went to England with a B-25 group • His job was to write a report for every mission • They lost a lot of planes in the beginning • He went to Cambridge for some pilot funerals and got to go to London afterwards for 2 days • While in London a German Buzz Bomb hit 4 or 5 blocks away and he fell out of bed • Millers mission reports contained fuel consumption reports, injury and death reports, whether there was flack or fire, how many planes went out, and how many came back • He worked from about 10pm to 4am • Miller stayed there until spring of 1944 • When the weather was bad they would fly to “no ball” targets which, were the launching pads for the V-1 and V-2 ballistic missiles; there was little enemy fire on these missions • They closed the base 10 days before D-Day and on D-Day they flew 3 sets of missions to help out • He then put in for a transfer and got sent to the HQ of Air Force Service Command at Milton-Earnest for 2 weeks (34:15) Eisenhower’s HQ �• Miller got sent to Eisenhower’s HQ and figured out the lend-lease program for the British and the French • It was Miller’s job to try and put a dollar figure on the lend-lease • He stayed with a family in Paris until the war was over • Miller was transferred to the lend-lease office in London • In August of 1945 he was sent to Marseilles to transfer a load of money on a DC-3 • From there he took a week long leave in Cannes • When he got back to London he had some vacation time so he went to Edinburgh, Scotland • Miller had to audit the officers’ books when he got back • He had lots of points built up from the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Bulge, so he asked to go home • Miller boarded the Santa Rosa, a converted passenger ship, and went home (54:56) Back Home • He hadn’t seen his daughter in 18 months • Miller went to Camp Atterbury, Indiana for discharge • While he was overseas he was in little danger and really missed home • Miller went to work with the family’s business until he retired • He felt that being in the Military was a good experience � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SiegelM Title A name given to the resource Siegel, Miller (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Siegel, Miller Description An account of the resource Miller Siegel was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1917. He received a Masters Degree in Business Administration and was drafted shortly after. Miller was assigned to the Air Corps and became an officer in Florida. He then graduated from Harvard University's new Statistical Officer School. Miller was assigned to heavy bombers and did flight reports at a few air fields before being sent overseas. His job in England was to write a report after each mission regarding injuries, deaths, fuel consumption, how many planes were lost, and then send the reports to HQ. After the war Miller was moved to Eisenhower's HQ and had to figure out dollar amounts for the lend-lease program with France and Britain. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army. Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-11-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/acdce66941a993ce3acd73e48ad4a4fe.mp4 cadf13decba268e399ee5e4264e9d604 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a14c71f53b96f3540bf056019028927.pdf e4f32c1b9d267e0672902e6fd1099677 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Tom Sibley Length of interview: 01:22:52:00 Pre-Enlistment (0:00:09:00)  Born in Muskegon, Michigan in May, 1945 (0:00:09:00)  His father had a couple of kids before Sibley and was working in Muskegon at a defense factory, both of which made him exempt from the draft, although Sibley did have a couple of uncles who served (0:00:17:00)  Grew up in Muskegon and graduated from Muskegon Catholic Central in 1963 before attending Muskegon Community College (0:01:00:00)  Got a basketball scholarship from Northern Arizona University-Flagstaff and graduated in January, 1968 with a major in Psychology and a minor in Sociology (0:01:09:00)  After he graduated, he knew he was going to be drafted because while he was in school, he had an exemption from the draft (0:02:02:00)  After graduation, he thought about the Peace Corps, applied, and was accepted (0:02:14:00) o Had to a make a decision because a man from the Peace Corps was talking to him and the training for the location he would be sent, Afghanistan, was in Colorado and he would have to report in a week or two (0:02:26:00) o Sibley agonized over the decision because joining the Peace Corps sounded like a positive things but on the other hand, if he went to the Peace Corps, he could still be drafted and that was a long time to be tied up and in the end, he decided not to join the Peace Corps (0:02:47:00)  Went home to Muskegon and worked for a few months at the employment bureau while he waited until he got his orders to report (0:03:10:00)  Received his orders in May 1968 and reported down to Detroit for a physical before a good sized group of men from Muskegon were bused down to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for basic training (0:03:24:00)  One of his professors at Northern Arizona, Byron Fox, was quasi anti-Vietnam war who presented the information and let the students decide what they ought to believe (0:03:58:00) o Sibley had a lot of questions about whether Vietnam made any sense or not, even when he was in college, and even at Northern Arizona, there were a couple of anti-War demonstrations and possibly a small group of SDS (Students for a Democratic Society), although Sibley fell more in the middle of the discussion (0:04:31:00)  His prior views on the war was one of the reasons it was difficult to decide to let himself get drafted, because at the time, if someone had a college degree, they could teach because there was a shortage of teachers (0:05:27:00) �  o Someone at one of the local parochial schools offered him a teaching position, which also would have given him a deferment, but at the time, Sibley did not feel too ambivalently enough to do something just to avoid the draft (0:05:43:00) “Allowed” himself to be drafted and in the back of his mind, he thought that since he had a college degree, he might get a decent job since he did not want to get into a position of killing people because he went to Catholic schools his whole life, which taught him not to kill people (0:06:10:00) There was some sense of patriotism, although at the time, he had friends who opposed the war and fought against the draft board and although none of his good friends were drafted but they all went through the process of being CO’s (Conscientious objectors) (0:06:54:00) o Although a small percentage of guys were drafted, a much larger group was affected, so in a big way, all the guys were Vietnam veterans (0:07:55:00) Training (0:09:03:00)  His basic training was at Fort Knox, Kentucky (0:09:03:00)  Because he was an athlete, the physical part was relatively easy and he was number two in his company in PT, with a score of 196 out of 200 max (0:09:09:00)  He had a college degree and had just turned 23, while most of the other men were younger, around 19 and while most of the men in his platoon were from Muskegon, but he did not know them because they were younger than him, although he did know a fellow grad whom he bunked with (0:09:33:00)  Their instructors were not too high on trying to prepare the men for the war directly, but more of general PT and basic weapons, as well as Army discipline and trying to sort out who they were and where they would go (0:10:05:00)  Sibley was not “gung-ho”, although when he went in, the drill instructor chose him to act as the liaison between the DI and the platoon because Sibley was a college grad and was older and was athletic (0:10:36:00) o Although he did the PT, his heart was not into ordering the other guys to get up early to run or staying up late to prepare for inspection and so Sibley rebelled a little against that, whereas he would do it, but he would not order others to do it and soon he was down to squad leader and soon, someone else was squad leader (0:11:05:00) o He was not interested in taking leadership, although he had opportunities to do so (0:11:44:00)  Basic training lasted 8 weeks, after which he went to his Advanced Individual Training (AIT) and received his orders (0:12:04:00) o Receiving his orders was one of the low points of his life because his orders were infantry training at Fort Polk, Louisiana and he remembers calling his mother and being depressed before going to Fort Polk (0:12:20:00)  Above the gates leading into Fort Polk and all along the sides was a sign reading “‘Tigerland’, Combat Infantrymen for Vietnam” (0:13:11:00) o All the new recruits went to a large building where the base commander gave a speech and showed a video rationalizing why the United States was in Vietnam and after the film, the commander said that all the men were going to Vietnam and most, due to the film and speech, gave a cheer (0:13:28:00) �          o When going into mess hall, the soldiers counted off by fives, saying “Cong Killer 1, Sergeant”, “Cong Killer 2, Sergeant” . . . (0:14:21:00) Did not have conflict with the other guys in training because they were busy every day and he does not remember having political arguments with the others, partly because he felt ambivalence inside him (0:14:40:00) Went to the base chapel and said that he did not think he could kill anyone and whether he had any alternatives, saying he would give 10 years of service to get out of being an infantryman (0:15:12:00) o The man in the chapel listened and simply said that Sibley had to do the job and just because he did not want to fight did not mean the army would not give him another job (0:15:31:00) Arrived at Fort Polk with other men from Fort Knox whom he had grown to know well (0:15:50:00) The army said some men, Sibley included, would have a little bit of different training on some different weapons, mortars and they would be designated 11 Charlie, with 11 Bravo being light weapon infantry and 11 Charlie being mortars (0:15:57:00) o This somewhat upset Sibley because he had to leave some of the men he knew best (0:16:18:00) o Most of their training was together with the infantry, although some was different weapons training with the mortars (0:16:28:00) Only town he remembers that was close to Fort Polk was Leesville, although the fort might have been around Baton Rouge and he remembers going into Leesville only one time (0:16:55:00) Area around the fort was swampy and being the middle of summer, it was hot, both of which served as preparation for Vietnam, along with several fairly realistic Vietnamese villages the Army had constructed (0:17:15:00) Most of the cadre were Vietnam veterans and guys that Sibley respected and who were career soldiers and were fair, consistent, do-it-themselves (0:17:31:00) o Sibley does not remember having any problems with the cadre in his doing this or doing that, such as when he would go into the mess hall, he would say “Cong Swiller” as a compromise because he was not ready to say “Cong Killer” (0:18:00:00) Like basic training, AIT lasted about 8 weeks after which the men received their orders (0:18:46:00) o Sibley received orders for Vietnam and a 30 day leave, which ended in October, and he remembers standing at the Muskegon County Airport with a groups heading to Oakland with him and think that being an infantryman, there was a good chance he might not be coming back, at least in the shape he was in then, and he remembers because he was the oldest, being the first to walk out to the plane (0:19:02:00) Plane took them to Oakland, which had a large center for processing soldiers, where they received all their equipment for Vietnam (0:19:59:00) The night before going to Vietnam, he snuck out of the barracks, and knowing what would happen the next day, snuck to a bar in San Francisco while thinking, “What are they going to do, send me to Vietnam?” (0:20:16:00) � o At the bar, he told people he was going to Vietnam, but no one believed him and he snuck back into the base when it was getting light (0:20:51:00) Flew in a contracted passenger plane to Vietnam, on which he talked with the other soldiers and though about his life (0:21:17:00) Vietnam (0:21:46:00)  One of the first impressions he had of Vietnam was, when walking off the plane, how hot and muggy it was (0:21:46:00)  Flew into Long Binh and stayed in a replacement company for a couple of days before being processed again and told what division and location he would report to (0:22:02:00)  Had all his gear in duffel bag, and the Army threw it onto a C-130, which flew to one place and left some guys off and ended up in Pleiku (0:22:22:00) o When he got off the plane, the duffel bag with all his equipment was gone; someone had stolen it (0:22:39:00)  Did not arrive in Pleiku until the evening and he and several others replacements where picked up by a truck that drove right through the middle of Pleiku, which at the time was small, to get to Camp Enari, the 4th Infantry Division base camp (0:22:55:00) o They had not eaten that day, so they went to the mess hall and another man, who looked like he had just come out of the bush, was going into the mess hall to get something to eat but the mess hall servers tell him he is not getting anything and they have a large argument with the man (0:23:44:00)  Was in a little replacement unit and while in the barracks, he talked with the men on his left and right, both of whose job were to take care of dead bodies, which made Sibley wonder if he was getting a message (0:24:27:00)  Ordered to his particular battalion, the 3rd of the 12th Infantry, but remembers that before he went, they lined up in a little formation and someone asked whether anyone knew how to type, after which Sibley said he could and the man said nothing further (0:25:02:00)  The 3rd of the 12th was outside Dak To at the time, so they took a truck from Pleiku to Dak To, specifically to a base outside of Dak To with helicopters and were helicoptered to Hill 1338, named so because the Army would name hill based on their elevations, and Hill 1338 was one of the highest elevations in the area (0:25:37:00)  Hill 1338 was fairly secure because the Army had been there for a while and there was even artillery on it, both of which made Sibley assume that Hill 1338 was the battalion commander’s hill (0:26:14:00) o First hill he went to and was where he was introduced to his mortar platoon because his company was on the hill and the guys in the mortar platoon showed him what to do, although he came in by himself and the others were counting down the days until they left (0:26:35:00)  There were beautiful sunsets on the hill and he would sit outside his bunker and the first sunset made an impression on him (0:27:06:00)  Was told he would either be a mortar man or carry an M16, depending on what they needed and when he got to Hill 1338, they needed mortars, so he went into the mortar platoon (0:27:27:00) o His platoon’s job was to support an infantry platoon when they went out on ambushes and search and destroy missions (0:27:43:00) �     At that time, body count was the philosophy; see how many they could kill and Sibley did not know the overall philosophy or big picture at the time and he had a more small picture view; he was with the other guys and they had a job to do (0:28:04:00) Used 81 mm mortars at the time and they would typically operate from a hill (0:28:33:00) o They would set up the mortars on the hill and run their patrols off the hill and they did not carry the mortars into the bush (0:28:57:00) o Provided security for the hill at night by setting the mortars to defend the perimeter but also to assist any units in the field (0:29:10:00) Remembers humping the mortar on time, right before Christmas when they had to carry not only the mortar and base plate, but also their personal supplies in a rucksack, as well as shells for the mortar (0:29:39:00) o Walked the mortar uphill right before Christmas because there was a cease-fire at Christmas 1968 and the men did not seem worried at the time (0:30:14:00) o Was hot, the men where sweating, people were struggling and over time, they started dropping parts of the mortar on the side of the trail, although no one got on them about it and they walked up to where they were camping before going back to get the other parts (0:30:40:00) If they were at a place for a month, that was a long time and they traveled around quite a bit (0:31:31:00) There were campaigns but he did not know the big picture; he was told what to do and he did it (0:31:42:00) Daily Life (0:32:01:00)  Daily was monotonous and normally filled with filling sandbags but they were busy and he does not remember ever being bored (0:32:01:00)  The other guys were a decent group and they would fill sandbags and prepare their defenses and they could improve their living situation by building a bunker to sleep in, which was better than sleeping under their poncho liners because at night, night it would get cool and the soldiers only cover was a poncho (0:32:15:00)  Camps did not come under fire often and it was usually mortar fire (0:33:02:00) o They had air support and one time, after receiving mortar fire, jets came out of nowhere for support and when they bombed the position, it was a morale boost (0:33:50:00) o The guys who had fired the mortar where probably not there or had gone into their bunkers but when the jets came over a hill, they did a spin, which acted like a morale boost to have that kind of support quickly available (0:34:30:00)  They were in contact with the units in the field, who would tell them what was going on and one time, a squad in the field reported that the mortars had killed the enemy, and the others cheered (0:35:07:00) o Sibley did not cheer because he did not feel good that they had killed the enemy; he had no problem doing his job because the enemy were trying to kill him and his buddies but he could not get to the point that he was happy about killing others (0:35:37:00) o Still carried some ambivalence with him although it did not affect the duty he had to do (0:36:02:00) �          Very informal relations when he arrived, mostly person to person (0:36:21:00) Did not get any extra training when he got to Vietnam, because he was in a replacement area only for a couple of days for processing and it was up to the battalion whether or not they would receive extra training and their training was done informally on the hill (0:36:41:00) Losing his duffel bag did not seem to be a problem and although he was worried about it because he was responsible for it, no one seemed to care and they just issued him new equipment in Vietnam (0:37:25:00) In general, they were well supplied and out in the field, they usually received one hot meal a day along with their C-Rations (0:37:46:00) o Usually they tried to helicopter in hot meal at night, although it was usually SOS [(Shit on a Shingle), not steak and eggs (0:37:54:00) o Once they were established on a hill, then they could bring in a hot meal; other than that, they ate C-Rations (0:38:23:00) One time when they got hungry, there was not enough food, not even C-Rations and all the men talked about food, which was the big thing on their minds, and when they went to bed that night, the soldiers were talking about when they got home, where to get the best food (0:38:30:00) o The next day or so, they received more C-Rations and as a result of the experience, one time when they had the opportunity to get some C-Rations and store them, they went and stole a box of C-Rations, although they got in a little trouble for doing it (0:39:05:00) Another time, they were in an area where, for some reason, they were short of water and they were getting thirsty, although there was a little bit of rain because they would try to catch and drink the rainwater (0:39:41:00) o They were rationing the water for a while and although it was only for a couple of days, it still made a big impression (0:40:04:00) o It was a supply issue, which he remembers only happening once, and there was a stream nearby and they ended up sending people there to get water (0:40:14:00) Everybody in the unit took a lot of pills and he does not remember people getting sick (0:40:39:00) o Everyone carried mosquito repellant, which the Army issued (0:41:05:00) Nobody ever asked him to buy any marijuana or gave him any, although, there were a few people in the platoons that would go out on patrols who were smoking marijuana (0:41:35:00) o Smoking was not real prevalent, especially in the mortar platoon, but became more so once the unit was in base camp (0:41:53:00) They would get beer at times, which they could order with along with pop, when they were on the hill, although they took a chance because if they moved, they had to carry it with them, so they only ordered small amounts (0:42:06:00) They eventually had what was called a “stand-down”, when they came out of their area, which the Army made it seem like a reward (0:42:48:00) o They had a new deployment planned for after the stand-down but when they came into the base camp, there was a band playing (0:43:06:00) o Did not get to the base camp until later in the day and they had a steak dinner and beer (0:43:23:00) �      o The unit was a little out of control and he remembers hearing that they were such a problem, the Army sent them out early and one night, when he was trying to find his way back to the barracks, he ended up sleeping in the back of an ambulance truck (0:43:37:00) Every so often, someone from HQ would come out to the hill and say that they had some R&R and if someone had been there for a specific amount of time, then they were eligible (0:44:21:00) o Some R&R was more popular than others and there were options and the person would ask, “anyone want Bangkok, anyone want Hong Kong, anyone want Taiwan, anyone want Australia” and guys would take them and whoever had the most time in got first choice (0:44:30:00) o One time, there was one left for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and Sibley took it, saying he would go anywhere, anytime, if he could go somewhere (0:44:52:00) o Went to Kuala Lumpur and that was an experience in itself because One day he was on his hill and the next day he was on a commercial airline with a stewardess (0:45:04:00)  Bused into Kuala Lumpur from the airport and he was freed to do whatever he wanted (0:45:27:00)  Did some touring and goofed around, including going to a rubber plantation and seeing a very interesting circus, where man would drink a bowl of goldfish then regurgitate them (0:45:33:00) o Trip was about five days and then he was back in Vietnam (0:46:42:00) He had very little contact with Vietnamese people (0:47:03:00) o There were some on the base camp that did the menial jobs in the camp and the times he was in base camp there was some contact (0:47:05:00) o When they were on hills, most of the people they dealt with where Montagnards, native tribesmen (0:47:25:00) o There Vietnamese in the town of Pleiku and the other towns but out from the towns, along the main roads, were villages of other ethnic groups, most of whom aligned with the American soldiers and although the soldiers had some contact with the villagers, they could not speak to one another (0:47:37:00) Before going over, he heard stories about soldiers being involved in killing civilians and not knowing who their enemy was and one of his biggest fears was what would he do in a situation like that and what would he do if he saw one of his buddies killing an unarmed person or torturing them; thankfully it never happened (0:48:16:00) Their enemy was the North Vietnamese Army (NVA), which made it our army against their army and a lot cleaner for him and his group because their was no question who their enemy was; made it a lot easier for Sibley (0:48:53:00) While he was there, no one in the mortar platoon was killed, although Sibley did get a little sliver in his back, which he still has because the doctors told him it would go out by itself (0:49:31:00) When he got into base camp and was assigned to his unit, they asked who could type and Sibley said he could because if a unit was in the field for 6 months or more, their company clerk left and the commanders had to chose someone to replace him (0:49:52:00) �     So, their company clerk left and the commanders were looking for a someone new and the would take someone from the company who had been in the combat for 6 months or more and make them the clerk and they chose Sibley to be the new clerk (0:50:09:00) Came into base camp as the company clerk, although he still had guard duty and sometimes he would go out around the base camp on ambush patrol; the first ambush patrol he was on was while he was the clerk in base camp and he hoped that no one would walk down the trail (0:50:28:00) As company clerk, he would process in newly arrived soldiers and one time, a soldier named Willings was assigned to mortars (0:51:12:00) o He talked with Willings about how he was Sibley’s replacement and he told Willings to say “hi” to several men and to take some stuff to them and about a week later, the hill he had come from received a sapper attack (0:51:26:00)  Knew that that area was a place the NVA did not want the Americans to be in because other times while they on that hill, platoons would get hit (0:51:59:00)  One platoon got hit bad and they had to leave some men behind and the men in the mortar platoon could see the attack and were listening on the radio to the mass confusion and eventually ended up supporting the beleaguered platoon (0:52:17:00)  All day fighting and at night, they managed to get some of the men out (0:52:50:00)  This was another moment for Sibley because the morning before the patrol, a Catholic priest came out and gave a service and kneeling down in the service was a sergeant who had trained him at Fort Polk (0:52:57:00)  This sergeant was in the platoon that went out and later in the day, when they had managed to helicopter some of the platoon back to the hill, Sibley went down and saw that one of the men who had been hit badly was the sergeant (0:53:35:00) o Willings lost both of his legs in a sapper attack on their base, and some of the other men in the mortar platoon were killed or wounded (0:54:39:00) Did not spend real long as the company clerk because he was getting back problems and eventually he went to the medic but they could not do a lot for the back pain, which continued getting worse (0:55:20:00) o He did a lot of lifting and one time, a little Vietnamese lady was in the company mess tent trying to lift a large pot of water to make drinks and Sibley said he would help and when he lifted the pot, it irritated his back (0:55:39:00) o Doctors thought he was trying to get out of Vietnam, which was not the case, but the doctors did not know that and finally, they sent him to the 71st Evacuation Hospital on the other side of Pleiku, who admitted him, continued checking him and eventually noticed numbness in his foot and pains up and down his leg (0:56:20:00) Was sent to Japan and after the doctors tested him there, they administered to him right away because of the possibility of nerve damage in his leg and he had surgery there and had some contact with the other guys in the unit (0:56:57:00) �         Someone he knew from Muskegon eventually interviewed him and when asked where he wanted to go from there, Sibley said back to Vietnam, but the interviewer said that he was not going back to Vietnam (0:57:25:00) o Sibley thought it was funny because he did not want to go back to Vietnam and now he was ambivalent and thought, maybe he should go back there (0:57:41:00) o Had a physical profile as far as lifting (0:57:56:00) Did not have much longer to go and when the Army asked where he would like to go, he said somewhere in the northeast because he had never been to the northeast, so they assigned him to Fort Dix, New Jersey (0:58:01:00) Came home and his mom picked him up from the airport because he had some leave time (0:58:18:00) The hospital plane was Australian and it had Australian nurses on it and the men were strapped in and could not move and even when Sibley asked to move because of his back pain, they said no (0:58:39:00) When he was in Japan, all the injured were in a line waiting and he remembers talking to the guy next to him, who was from Cleveland, Ohio and the man talked about how he and his buddies were dealing with Viet Cong and some of the men he was with were killed and some others managed to capture some Viet Cong, one of whom was a woman, and the soldier described very graphically how he and his buddies killed her (0:59:00:00) When he got to Fort Dix, Sibley was assigned the job of being a guard at the stockade because of his weapons training but he said that he would not carry a weapon and he talked with some people and he must have talked to the right person, because they changed his MOS (1:00:44:00) They changed his MOS to Psychological Specialist because of his degree and although he still worked in the stockade, he interviewed soldiers being ordered into the stockade, most of whom were from New York City (1:01:08:00) o Slightly infamous because of the anti-war demonstrations, including demonstrations outside of the major bases, including Fort Dix and there were antiwar protestors inside the stockade that were resisting while they were in the military (1:01:41:00) Eventually, the Army transferred him to Fort Monmouth, which people told him it was the “country-club” of the army (1:02:20:00) o The food was decent and Sibley played tennis at night and was on the basketball team (1:02:35:00) o Worked in a psych clinic where he interviewed people that where in a mental health clinic (1:02:46:00) Had a little PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) but he did not realize it at the time and a couple of strange occurrences helped back up his prognosis (1:03:04:00) o When he was on the basketball team, a guy gave him an elbow and Sibley told him not to do it again; the man bummed Sibley again and Sibley punched him in the mouth in the middle of the basketball game (1:03:25:00) o Another time, the staff at the mental health clinic were talking and Sibley started crying and he could not stop; he did not know what triggered the incident (1:03:40:00) o Both incidents made him ask what was going on and when he cried, the others gave him space (1:04:17:00) �  With a month to go in his tour, he was promoted to E-5 (1:05:01:00) Does not think anyone offered him the opportunity to re-up (1:05:27:00) Post-Military (1:06:19:00)  Did as little as possible when he got out of the Army, which was another indication of his mental state (1:06:19:00) o He grew a beard and signed up for unemployment in Muskegon (1:06:23:00)  Took a trip out east (1:06:33:00) o Although he still got unemployment benefits, which supported the trip, he stayed at YMCA’s, slept outside, and slept in his car (1:06:37:00) o He did not care much and visited a couple of guys he met at Fort Dix (1:06:48:00)  When he was at Fort Dix, they could take a bus to New York City for the weekend and the USO in NYC would give them a number and tell them to come back later to know what event would be available (1:07:04:00) o Sibley saw a Broadway play, the Giants play, Al Hirt at Carnegie Hall and the Brooklyn Ballet, all cultural things that he never would have seen (1:07:30:00) o USO had a place to stay that was cheap, because he had little pay, only $90, but in NYC, he could have fun without needed a lot of money (1:07:45:00)  His old buddies were going through their situations of avoiding the draft and he could not talk with them about his experiences because of that (1:08:23:00) o However, he does not remember having conflict about the differences and he never resented anybody for not going to Vietnam and he was happy for Carter and his amnesty program (1:08:47:00)  Did not have animosity towards the people who did not go or to the Vietnamese; in fact, he had sympathy for their situation (1:09:06:00)  Never experienced negative responses while going around in uniform mainly because he never went around in his uniform; when he went off-base, he wore civilian clothes, although one time, when he was flying home for leave and sitting in coach on the plane, the stewardess must have noticed his haircut because she came up and told him to come up and sit in First Class (1:09:38:00)  Was in line in the employment bureau and they offered him a job because he had worked there for a couple of months before being drafted and when he asked if he had to take the job, they said that if he did not take the job, then he would not get unemployment benefits (1:10:41:00)  Eventually, using his degree, he applied to the Department of Social Services, where he was hired and an eligibility examiner doing interviews of people applying for public assistance, but having a case load of 180 was not his idea of social work (1:11:32:00)  Had an opportunity and applied for grad school, focusing on social work because he still wanted to help people, and was surprised when he was accepted to the University of Michigan, where he received a master’s degree in social work (1:11:56:00)  When he got out of U-of-M, he had a couple of job opportunities and he took job at the Kent County Juvenile Court as a probation officer, where he worked for twenty-eight years before retirement (1:12:20:00)  He started getting involved in the Vietnam issue again in the early 1990s (1:13:09:00) �      o He had forgot about much of it for years but he would be interested if there was an article or a movie about Vietnam, but never involved in anything (1:13:16:00) o Eventually, he saw in the paper that there was a group doing a Christmas party for some Vietnamese refugees coming to the United States and he contacted the group, a Vietnam veterans' group in Monroe County, Michigan, that was involved with helping Vietnam refugees (1:13:30:00) o Joined the local VVA chapter, which was not involved with helping the refugees, although one day, someone from Bethany Christian Services came in while Sibley was working and they offered for Sibley to take in a couple of unaccompanied Amerasian minors (1:14:06:00)  Sibley was single at the time and he liked his freedom so he declined and Bethany Christian Services said that they had some older kids that did not need a lot of mothering and were independent and Sibley ended up having a 17 year old live with him for a year (1:14:46:00) o Started more getting involved and it went from there, including asking his church to sponsor a family in helping refugees through a program that involved Vietnamese proving they had been in reeducation camps for more than 5 years (1:15:25:00) o As well, he became involved in VVA and tried bringing together the leaders of the refugee program and the VVA (1:15:55:00) In 1995, went back to Vietnam when he saw in the paper that they were offering the opportunity for veterans to go back with international aid and to involved veterans in service projects to reconnect in Vietnam and he has traveled back to Vietnam several times since (1:16:29:00) Eventually got involved with another family through Bethany Christian Services, as well as a woman in a came in Kuala Lumpur, whom he visited in 1995 and wrote letters to and who eventually came to the United States (1:17:04:00) His interaction was with the guys he was serving with and he does not remember having conflicts with individual people and although out in the field, there were some groups, including a black power movement, there were not large groups of minorities in his unit and whoever was a minority was just part of the group and everybody hung together (1:18:17:00) Experience of going back to Vietnam with the civilians was positive because they had the ability to say that it was in the past and to move on (1:19:40:00) Economically, after the United States let, the country was devastated because there was a way of life that feed on the money that was coming in from the war and when the United States left, not only was there conflict between the North and the South, but there was also economic problems (1:19:57:00) o People’s energies went into surviving rather than looking back and he did not sense the feeling the American’s were the bad guys from the Vietnamese and they did not want the American’s there (1:20:44:00) They never visited the area where he had been in; instead, they went mostly along the coast from Hanoi to Hue to Da Nang to Ho Chi Minh City (1:21:26:00) o One of the other men met somebody who was involved in a fight in which the man was shot (1:21:45:00) o He has met Vietnamese in the United States who had been in Pleiku (1:22:04:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SibleyT Title A name given to the resource Sibley, Thomas (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sibley, Thomas Description An account of the resource Tom Sibley was born in 1945 in Muskegon, Michigan. After college, he applied for the Peace Corps and was accepted, but was concerned that he could still be drafted after he got back, and decided not to go. He was drafted in May, 1968, and sent to Vietnam later that year. He served as a mortar crewman in the 4th Infantry Division in the Central Highlands for several months, and then became a company clerk before back problems took him out of the field entirely. He has since returned to Vietnam and been involved with helping Vietnamese refugees in the US. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-22 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/695a302d6d1f1926f01c3501b653e43e.m4v 0c045301d9a9bb83932f05ad4a5ff88a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/79a92a1fbaaf5655c16ef8371c6e644c.pdf 4405bc9ac88a66ba9fc79391e77ab426 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Transcript Harold Sibley World War II Interviewer: Frank Boring (1:22:17) Let‟s begin with your name and where and when you were born? (02:59) My name is Harold W. Sibley. I was born in Grand Lake, Michigan, just outside of Flint, Michigan, a little town, in 1921. What was your early schooling like? Well my first day they took me to kindergarten. Set me in that room in the middle of the room, and I started looking around and I didn’t know any of those kids there. I got up and walked out and went home. Then I waited until I knew that school was going to be out before I went home, but they had already called my parents and found out that I had taken off. But, I was taken back the next day and they made sure that I never did anything like that again. So how about high school? I understand that was a little bit more enjoyable experience? Yes, we had 4 years of high school there and I went out for both basketball and football and I ended up as captain of the basketball team my last 2 years and I was co-captain of the football team my last year. So, physical activities in a way came natural to you. You felt like.... They did, they did. That‟s great. Now you got out of high school, I believe in 1939. (04:18) Yup. So what did you did then. You had to go to work. This was not exactly a prosperous time in America. Oh no, no. They were still recovering from the Depression. But, I managed to mow lawns for people that had the money. Of course they didn’t pay much, maybe $ .25 for a big lawn or something like that, but it was still money. And, anything that I could do to earn a buck or dollar I did. Until, well in high school, I had that ice cream parlor job, but then my dad started let him help him in the cemetery, even digging graves. Today it is all done by automation. �Right, right. Which is real physical work. I mean, your muscles are aching when you dig like that. But I learned to drive. Because, I had a truck there to haul stuff around in and that is how a learned to drive, really, at 12 years of age. But soon there was a better job opportunity. Oh yeah, oh yeah. When I was old enough to get into the plant at GM. And they were starting to recover somewhat. I realize that you were very young at this time, but were there any rumblings at all of what was going on in Europe. At this time when you were at GM. Oh yeah, we knew that England was getting involved. Because you were approaching 18. You were approaching the time that something might have to happen to you. Well I graduated at 17. But I knew that as soon as Pearl Harbor was hit that my age group was going to get involved. Well tell me about Pearl Harbor. (06:15) I was at Betty’s house that day, and there were 2 other guys there for her sisters, when it came over the radio that Pearl Harbor was attacked. What was your reaction? Oh boy! This is the start of it now. So you figured out that you were going to be someway or another involved. Yup, and I thought that well maybe if I could fly I would like that better, but that didn’t work out, so. Well what you actually do... You tried to get into the Navy Air Corps. Well when I tried to get into the corps? Oh no, I failed because of my eyes. Right, but I mean you tried to get into the Navy Air Corps? Oh yes, yes. �Yeah. So basically it was because of your eyes that you not able to. And, so what happened after that? Well I went back to work at GM. And then soon a notice came in the mail, or ... how did you find out? Well there was quite a span in between because I dated a lot with her and we got acquainted all of the time. But, I knew I was going to get drafted because of my age, and actually I wasn’t married. But, by the time I went into the service I was. Because I was inducted on July 29 and on the 1st of August we were married, and on the 8th of August was my birthday. (07:41) So once you were inducted into the military, what was the next step? What did you have to do? Did you have to report somewhere? We went over to the army base over in Michigan here. What is the name of that? Fort Custer? Yeah. One week there. Got rid of my civilian clothes and got on army clothes, and... Well lets back up a little bit. You arrived at Fort Custer in a bus, or a train? On a train. Okay, and you were with a bunch of other draftees. Well yes. So you‟re off the train and you are in civilian clothes. What do you see? What was Fort Custer like when you first got there? Well, I had been to some CC camps before, which had a similarity to this. And it didn’t shock me to much with what I saw. But anyway... But there was activity going on. There were people marching, and there was a flag pole ... Yup, yup. So they brought you in. Yes they brought us in. Okay, and where did you go? �Well they put us in a group. Okay. Took a picture. Okay. And then gave us living quarters. Okay. These are barracks? Yeah. Okay. And then told us what we could expect about what we had to do. We might have to come and police the grounds or something. Or we might have to go get our new clothes ready and get rid of the old clothes. So there was something like that happening all of the time. (09:11) So, you arrived to get your new military clothes and of course they had a tailor there from New York, and he is making sure that your arm length, and your leg length and your boots are being measured. I never saw one. What did they do? Well they give me stuff that fit me. They basically took a look at you and said what are you‟re a 30 this or a 30 something and throw some pants at you. Yup, yup. So, basic training there, you said.... this was not basic training per se. Not really, but you could have pulled KP duty or something like that, too, or table waiter. But the day that I was supposed to do that, my brother-in-law brought Betty up to see me, and they excused me. Ahhhhhh.. So this is not the actual basic training. This was more of a staging area. Oh yeah, there was not big deal there. �So where did you go next? Uh, they put us on a train, and I wasn’t sure where we were going, and none did. We weren’t told where we were going at first. But, finally the second or third day out, I says - Ray was with me, my friend - I says, we are going kind of southwest. Where do you think that we are going and he said, “I don’t know”. So anyway we ended up in Texas. Okay. Now let‟s backtrack. Ray was actually somebody you met while you were at GM. No, no. I met him at our first camp there. Okay, but wasn‟t he working at GM or something? No, he worked at a bank in Flint. Oh. Okay, okay, I got confused. Okay, so anyway you both met at camp and you kind of became buddies because you were from the Michigan area and all of that. Sure did. So you arrived in Texas. And what was that like when you got off of the train there? Was it bigger than Camp Custer, or...? (11:09) Well it was in the middle of the night. It was hotter than blazes and we probably had to march over a mile and a half to get to the barracks where we were going to be. Of course we were all wringing wet by that time. Yeah, sure. And you couldn’t try to take a shower because there was no hot water left. But anyway, ah, we finally got settled into our barracks and they hauled us all out and they gave us a speech about what we were going to be involved in. It wasn’t too bad really. So, what the routine like? The typical day? You get up around 10 o‟clock in the morning, have some coffee, kind of hang around for awhile smoking cigarettes? No, no. Reveille was about 6 o’clock. And you’d better get up. And you might be a table waiter or KP. I never got caught very often on that. A couple of times maybe, but that was it. So then it was calisthenics, marching, left, right, left right. (12:17) Learning how to right, how to stroll, how to do this. What was your drill sergeant like? Was he....? �He was a decent guy, he really was. He really was. Because, you know the usually, the guy screaming in your face, you‟re a maggot, you‟re this and that. Okay, I’ve seen some of those, too. Never under them, but I ended up having to do that too for my own platoon, but..... We will get into the later. That is an interesting sidetrack there. So, basic training though, you‟re going through all- the people that were in basic with you, were they from all over the country, or...? They were, yup. Okay. So this is your first real experience with people that were not from Flint or Michigan or ...... Oh, yeah, yeah. Was there a sense of cameraderie amongst your group, you are all in this together; you have a common enemy to fight? Or were you just too young for this? There were maybe 6 of us from Michigan. Okay. Kind of huddled together and ate together? Yeah, yeah. Took some pictures together and we even had a little Mexican guy that we fell in love with. But, we took him into town one evening, when we had some free time and went rolling skating. He had never been on skates. So you can imagine how that..... (13:38) Probably the way that I would be on roller skates - all over the place. We had a lot of fun with him, but... Now, during this period of time, you happened to come upon a notice that was on the bulletin board. And I want you to ..... This was pretty close to the end of our training time that I saw that. And I got a hold of Ray and I says “Come on over and read that”. And what did it say. Looking for several good young healthy men, good physiques. Strenuous work to be done. Hard work all of the time and you also have to jump out of an airplane. But then it pays $50 extra a month. That’s �what got me there, because that was another extra $50 that I could send home. I was only getting $10 dollars a month, because I had an allotment to Betty. But that was all I needed to live on, really in basic training. Well they fed you, they clothed you, all of that stuff. Oh yeah. Sure, sure. So what did Ray have to say about this? He said, “Well it might be a good idea.” He was engaged too, by the way. But he never lived to get married. Yup. So, you guys decided that you were going to take up this opportunity. So, what did you do. How did you .....? Well they accepted 28 of us. Okay. Then were there two officers came from the special forces and each one was individually interviewed for about 2 hours. Wanted to know all about you. Like we are doing here now. And after that, then there a lot of physical fitness things you had to do and qualify in it, or they said no. But there were 28 of us accepted. Let me just..... This is going to sound like a stupid question. I imagine this was very strenuous even for a 21 year old kid. They really put you through the paces. Oh, yes. But we had been ... There were several good hills around Camp Alders, Texas where we had basic training, so I knew what climbing a mountain was. Yeah, and plus you had from basketball days, and from football days, your body at 21 was in good shape. But still, even for you this was a strenuous test? Oh yeah, it was. Okay. So how did you find out that you got this appointment? Well, after they interviewed everybody. They called us all together and told us that you have all been accepted - the 28 - and you will be coming to our base (but they never told us where it was) for some more hard physical training. (16:18) That must have been interesting sitting in the audience and listening to it - hard, I thought we just went through really hard. You mean it gets worse? �But anyway, the training group that we went with were sent to the Pacific at the end of the basic. They left us there for 2 weeks before they shipped us out. Now, had you graduated from basic yet. Oh yeah. Okay, alright. So you had graduated from that. Oh, yup, yup. But, we were just left there and we weren’t hardly doing anything. Going off for exercise I guess for about 2 weeks. And, finally they said, “Well put your stuff together, you are going to be on your way.” And of course they never told us where we were going. So, we had a First Lieutenant from there that put us on the train and he was going with us. But he had lived in a town in Nebraska, I think it was. And we got about..... Well anyway we started out and finally after about 2-3 days, I says, “Ray, I thought that we would be going to Fort Benning in Georgia for jump training. We’re not going south. We are going northwest.” And he says, “Well I guess you’re right.” But anyway, he had the train pulled off to a site in his home town there. And he says, “My mother is going to be at a hotel here and she wants to buy dinner for you guys.” Wow! Boy, we thought that was pretty darn nice, because we were eating out of cans. Yeah, this was the First Lieutenant‟s mother. Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh wow! So she did. She did. Wow! We got back on the train and took off again. Ended up in Helena, Montana. And what happened in Helena, Montana? Well the train was able to get real close to the base. So, we had to march into camp and as we marched in. They kept calling off names and they did it alphabetically because there was 3 regiments. So first regiment got so many of these guys. Second regiment got so many. Third regiment got so many and mine being S, I was in the third regiment, and my buddy Ray was also, because he was a W. He was in the company next to me. �Now, I thought that you went to Camp Harrison first, or did I get it reversed. No. We did go to Harrison. That was the first camp we went to. And that was the home base, too. And that was the ... Okay, that was when you first heard the name... First special service force. Yup, yup. And we didn’t know what those Canadians were doing there, either. (19:00) So you actually met the Canadians at that time? Yeah, some of them had the ride there, too. So, this was all in Texas at Camp Harrison when the Canadians were gathered and you were gathered, or was that in Montana? That’s Montana. Oh, okay. So now we are in Montana. Canadians have come aboard. So, did you train separately from them, or did you train with them? Yup. Some of their march calls we adopted and some of ours they adopted. So, we had fun doing it really, so. Were there also French Canadians amongst this group? Yup, Yup, could speak French. Now, I read this, and I don‟t know if this applied to you, but I read this about the First Special Force - that some of the Canadians wore the kilts. You know, like the Scottish kilts? You didn’t see that very often. Okay, alright. Especially in the winter time. So they were wearing pants, the regular pants, just like very one else? Yes, yes. �Okay. So, what was the training in Montana like? I mean, you had gone through basic training. You had gone through this kind of test to become one of this group. What was Montana training like? Rough. The obstacle course was more than twice as long as the one we used in basic training. And you had to do the whole thing. We had mountain climbing. Some mornings they would get us up and there a mountain just out side of camp, and we had to go run up that mountain before we could go to breakfast. And, we had hand to hand combat, right on the ground, too, part of the time, by this - he was an Irishman really, but he was the one that I told you was an instructor over in Japan. So he had actually learned martial arts in Japan and adapting those techniques of Judo or Karate to your training. So you are flipping people, and... Well yeah, but if you want to shut a guy up that is talking too much, you just do that to his throat and he doesn’t talk anymore for a while, which I had to do to a couple to Germans one time. Now in Montana, what was the base like? Did you have actual wooden structure barracks? Were you in tents or....? (21:28) We had tar paper huts. Okay, tar paper huts. And what about the mess tent? Well that was a regular building. This was an old base for - not the regular army, but the... National Guard? National Guard. Okay. So this was a training base for the National Guard. But then they had to make a tower for drying the parachutes, too. And a place to hang them. Now, what was the food like? Was it a chow line kind of buffet? No, actually we could make it ourselves, if we wanted to. Really! Wow! Especially on the weekend. Yeah. �But, during the week, they usually had a regular meal. But, if you wanted to go in and have ham and eggs or bacon and eggs, whatever, you could do it yourself, on Sundays. But during the week, you‟re talking about trays going down the line. Slop on potatoes, slop on something, slop on something. But the food wasn‟t too bad you say. Well, where I saw that was when we were at that Bradford Naval base, for amphibious training. We had to use the Navy for food. The first day that I went through there, I had a tray and walking along and all of a sudden I got a great big pile of beans on my plate. I said, “I don’t eat those things.” “Well if you’re here you are going to eat them.” But a..... So, the training in Montana. That included what? You mentioned parachute. This was the first time you had ever gotten involved in parachutes? (23:00) Yeah. They had the mockups for us to jump out of like you are supposed to jump out of the plane. Right. And there is stages, right? You start for a certain height and then another height and another height.. Now I have paratroopers that made it through and they talked about guys that when they finally got way up high, they just couldn‟t to it. Well at Benning they had towers, but they would take you up high and then drop you at Fort Benning. Of course, we didn’t have .... You didn‟t have that in Montana. No, no. So, this is the real basic, basic stuff. Okay. Was there any point at this period, where you thought, “Oh my gosh, what have I gotten myself into.” No not really. So, this was exciting stuff, this is ..... We had to go out on night marches too, and use a compass to find our way back and how to do that, and some nights you might not have any sleep. You work all day and go out all night. But you are 21 years old and you can do that sort of thing, especially if you are physically fit. And we were taught demolitions. That was another thing that we had to learn. Ah. And we blew up some bridges that shouldn’t have been blown up and Fredericks let us know about that. �Fredericks of course is the man in charge. Oh, yeah. He became a Major General before he got through. He was a Lieutenant Colonel when he took over the force. Then after we took Rome, he was promoted to a Colonel. But, back then, this was an experimental - this was an experiment, right? I mean this was Fredericks idea, and people bought into in the military, but this was an experiment. If you guys failed, this probably would not have continued on to become the Green Berets. That’s right. But, Eisenhower knew him very well. New what kind of a man he was and what he could do, and so that is why he was the one that picked. But they also sent him to England to see if they agreed if they had the right guy or not, and of course they took to him right away. But regardless of that, this still was an experimental force. Oh, yeah. It was the First Special Force. First of the special forces. And when Kennedy was President, he had the current Green Berets offer to wear a green beret, which we didn’t have. But we also got a letter stating that we were entitled for that green beret now. So, at our reunions we always had a memorial service for the guys that had passed away over the last year, and when we went to Rome, we decided that we should all dress alike. Which we did. We had a navy blazer, gray slacks, a white shirt and a force tie with our emblem on it. And we were able to wear our Green Berets, and we always had a little march to where we were having our memorial service and then they read off those that had passed away, and.... Yeah, sure, sure. Now your training in Montana then, the obstacle courses, the mountain climbing, demolition. You are doing really a plethora of activities. An Army infantry would be doing this, or guys training for mountain training would do mountain, paratroopers for paratrooping. Your doing everything. That’s right. Even had to learn to drive a weasel. What is a weasel? Well, it is a little tracked vehicle that could carry 4-5 men, made by Studebaker that they thought that we might have to use if they dropped us into Norway to get out, but we never had to use it that way. (26:54) So, the Montana training then eventually came to an end. And, did they give you any kind of a ceremony, like with Boot Camp, or was there any kind of a okay you guys have gotten through here, now you are going there, tomorrow we are going somewheres else. �Well, yes. But the thing that we had been training for had been cancelled. This was Norway. Yup, no, no, no. This was –yes Norway, this was Norway. Yeah, okay alright. That was cancelled by the king. So right away General went to Washington to find out what we could do and that was when we ended up in the Aleutians. Okay, I don‟t want to jump that quickly. You are finished up in Montana. The word comes to you that the original mission that you were supposed to be training for in Norway is now off. So, where did you go next? We went to Camp Bradford, Virginia for amphibious training. Because he had found this job in the Aleutians. Did you know about that job in the Aleutians at that point? Not until he came back and told us. Okay, okay. So now you are in Virginia and you are training for an amphibious landing on the Aleutians. Okay, what was that amphibious training like? Because you guys had not done this previous this time. (28:25) No, no we hadn’t. We were in the Chesapeake. Okay. For our rubber boat training. Okay. How to inflate those and how to paddle them with 6 guys in it and your equivalent. Then they had a big ship come in and we had to go up and down a rope ladder and the thing was that the Marines had already done this, but we beat them. Oh really! We did it faster than they did we were told, but then we had an actual dry run to make an invasion on dry land. That way.... �So, this is not like the D-Day thing and the big landing crafts and the thing comes down and you right out. This is literally 6 men in a boat, inflatable boat and you are paddling away and ... Yup, Yup. And, I would assume that this was done at night. This was night training, right? This is not type of thing that you would be doing in broad daylight. The 2 times we did it was on the Aleutians and going into Southern France those islands off shore. Okay. Alright so now from Virginia, you have completed your training with the landing, okay. Where do they take you next and how do they transport you? From Virginia.... We were going to be shipped out of Virginia, but then they put us in another camp, Camp Patrick Henry, I think was the name of it. We had to stay there until they were ready to ship us out. How many men, comprise of this „ship us out‟? I mean how many people are we talking about here? When we were at full strength, after we were trained and ready to go. Each regiment had at least 600 men. So we had 1800 total. I will go back to 2 reunions ago, which was in Canada and they asked how many of you guys were originals in Montana. And, I think that there were about 65 of us there. But there was a big crowd, but a lot of recruits that we had taken along the way. Right, we will talk about them later. Alright so this 1800 group is now put out to a ship, a transport ship, a luxury liner, a troop ship, what kind of a ship was it? (30:41) A Victory Ship. Ah, yeah, okay. Going to the port of San Francisco. And you had never been on the West Coast. Ah, no, no. Okay. But when we got there, they put us out on an island, so we couldn’t tell other people what we were doing. It wasn‟t Alcatraz was it? �Anyway, we weren’t there too long and we were shipped out. But, it was a Victory Ship. As soon as we got out under the Golden Gate Bridge, the prop was out of the water and it was .............and a little bit beyond there it was like this. I could stand on the deck and there was water there and the next thing I am looking 40 ft. down. I had a guy that got so sick that he never got out of bed all the way up there and turned green. How was your reaction physically? It didn’t bother me. It didn’t bother me. It is amazing the number of vets that I have talked to that came out that same - not out of your ship obviously - but out of that same San Francisco Bay and went through that same exact experience that you are talking about. And gosh it is just across aboard. Some are a little bit sick. Some violently ill. Some not. It is just amazing. Oh, yeah. They had barrels rolling all over the deck breaking loose and spilling oil. It was a mess really. But, on the way back, we were on one of the president’s name ship’s... President Pierce? No, it was an old one. Oh, okay. But it was a better ride. They had ice cream on that one too. So, the trip over - where did you land? (32:18) Uh, the name of that island was ..... That‟s alright. It was secured island though in the Aleutians. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Okay, so you are not landing into a battle zone. No. No. No. Did you disembark and actually go onto the island? Oh yeah, we lived there for awhile. In tents, and then marched through muskeg. March through what? �Muskeg they called it. You think that it is grass, but you walk down and you sink in maybe over your ankles. Then we had guards on at night and they would get lost in the dark. Oh gosh. This was an island, but what was the terrain like? Was it a jungle terrain or .....? Well there was no trees or anything, but it was full of this muskeg they called it. Just like muddy grass kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you are sleeping in pup tents? No, paramilitary tents. Okay, alright and were you allowed to have heat and fire and things like that to keep warm. Oh it was warm. It was August. Oh, okay, you didn‟t want any fires. Yeah. Okay. What about insects and things like that. No there weren’t too many there really. The only trouble it they had to bring water into us. So you were staged there for a couple to weeks or....? (33:47) Oh yeah, yeah. And were you informed about where you were going or what you were doing? Were there any briefings of any kind? Yeah, yeah. So what were they telling you? They were telling that uh, there is 2 islands there held by the Japs and somebody is already on the other mountain and taken that, but your mountain is going to be Kiska, and that is their air base also. So, the first and third regiments made the invasion there. The second regiment, who had taken Mount La Defencia, were back on the island with their chutes on and ready to come if we needed them. Of course that never happened. What some people may not know is that this is the real invasion of American land. I mean this is right up into Alaska. This is a back door into Alaska. The fear was on both and the Canadians and Americans. If the Japanese were able to move up those islands. They would be able to invade Alaska, invade Canada and then come on down. So you were actually sent out there and to really �retake American land. Now, what was the preparation for this invasion? What did you guys have to go through? I mean you are getting gear on. You are getting..... How are you going to get to that island? I mean give us an idea of the whole preparation to go. Well depending on what section you were in. What was your section? Mine was the mortar section. So I usually carried the barrel of the mortar and another guy carried the plate and another that was in the squad carried the ammunition. And of course that stuff gets heavy. Especially if you are trying to get over a 6 ft. wall. (35:33) Well I don‟t want to jump ahead to quickly. Let‟s move forward now. You are still on this island. Did you board a boat at some time? Yes we did. Okay, and what kind of boat was this? A destroyer. A destroyer, alright. And now you are moving forward to this rendezvous point ... By rubber boat. By rubber boat. Okay. So you got off of the destroyer and these rubber boats and once again used these rope ladders and down into this rubber boat. There is 6 of you in a boat and a whole bunch of other people with 6 people in a boat. Plus the ammunition and equipment. Was it a surprise, or did you encounter guns and shots as you were coming in? No. No. There was no , it was quiet. Too quiet, we thought too quiet. At night, pitch black. Oh yeah, yeah. Until we got in the middle of the lake and the moon came out. Suddenly you are silhouetted right across there. What was your reaction to that. Well my sergeant major was in my boat. I said, “What do you think Pat?”. He said, “Boy we are going to get it now,” he said. But we never heard a shot fired. �So you silently land and you get the boat up over the 6 ft wall. Now this wall was supposed to be how big, you were told? Well, they told us that there was a wall there about 3-4 ft. high. You can get over that easy enough, so. But it was 6 ft. So, you get over the wall, still no resistance. No. But we had to be real quiet so. So as you are marching forward, what happened? (37:23) We were only maybe 40-50 yards from the lake. And still no resistance. No. What did you finally come upon? What did you...? Well we got to the lake, it was a small lake too. So we were paddling. We got about in the middle of it and like I said the moon came out and silhouetted us, and I thought boy this is going to be it. Right. We got no chance now and we kept paddling and paddling. Got to the other shore and got out and took our equipment and started up that mountain and we got about ½ way up when we got the message that there was nobody up here. So some advance patrol perhaps had gone up there to scout it and... Yeah, the first regiment that was making an invasion with us over on the other side got up there before we did. Because they had an easy way to go. I see. So what did you actually find when you got up to the top there? We found dugouts. Some places we found some hot coals and a fire yet, so we knew that they had left in a hurry. And some of their equipment was there. I found a lot of post cards and things like that. I got some of them even in my scrap book today. Wow? And they had underwater vessel there. (38:54) �A submarine? A submarine base. And they had got away with those too. Those were empty. So, we backed us off and we went back to our island - no we didn’t. They didn’t even let us go back to our island. They got our stuff with the service group that we had. Always had a service group. And they got our equipment and got it on board the ship and we settled back to go to the states. This is so amazing. It must have been in many ways, I mean, I‟m sure that you were glad that it happened this way. But in many ways anti-climactic. I mean here you are geared up and there is nothing there. That’s right. Something your not to find a little later on. Alright, so now you are back in the U.S. and where did you end up.... We ended up in Camp Stoneman, California. He was giving everybody a 10 day leave. So those in that area got to leave there, then we went back to Port Island. The same place that we came from, because that base was empty. There was nobody there and then they started letting us have leave, too. So, where did you go? Pontiac. Oh, okay, alright, so you went back to meet with Betty. Yah, Yah. Oh, that is wonderful. In fact, we were there twice and she came out there two different times. She was working at GM, too. She was a secretary to an agent. And she also had a week off while I was in basic training and she came down to me there. Great, great. Now where were you assigned next. (40:47) We went back to Vermont and were waiting for orders and I think that we were to end up in Italy. But to get there, we had to go across Africa in box cars. But it was kind of interesting, because actually we stopped at where the home of Sidi Bellabeste was quartered - French Legion. And we would catch them out on dress parade and boy, they were really sharp looking. But other than that, no. Did you know where you were going? I think we all surmised that we were going to Italy, really. Because Africa had been taking by .... �Right. So when we got to the other end of it, they were on another boat and we went to Italy. Where did arrive in Italy? I forget that name of that port, but it had been bombed out and there were ships in the way and our ship had to really get us into the shore, but then they took us to just outside of this town that had been Italian Army base and we were quartered there for a couple of weeks probably. Once again, what was the force like. I mean, you were in a group..... was this a huge number, like the whole 1800 or so was gathered, okay? Of course, Yup. All right. In fact, the only entertainment we ever had was Joe E. Brown. Oh yeah. (42:30) They had him come and put a show on for us when we were there. Bob Hope didn‟t come with them? No, never saw him. But we had to do exercises and stay in shape all of those two weeks while were there. And then the next thing, they put us on trucks and took us close to Casino where we got out, and we got out where the artillery was firing up on these mountains. So, you were actually seeing combat, I mean, you are not in combat, but you are seeing it. (43:07) We were seeing it and we got to a certain location that the General picked out for us to keep cover in. And, then he took a scouting party with him really, maybe 5-6 guys and they went up the mountain. And the first night they got in under cover, so nobody could see them, and they had to keep quiet. And the next time he went a little further and scouted out this almost straight up cliff wall, and he said that’s where we are going. They don’t expect anybody to come up there. And so the very next night they went up and they got up. Now you are in reserve right? We are in reserve, in reserve. So they threw these long ropes up and the hook caught on and they could go up the rope and he got them all up there and they made their charge as soon as day break hit and they �had it pretty well secured in 6 hours, because the Germans didn’t expect anybody to come up where we did. And this is the hill that you were talking about earlier that previous groups had tried to take unsuccessfully. Yup, yup. And, I could understand why because the path we were taking supplies up on was a nice path, you could walk up that, but I found 2-3 bodies along the way that were from other outfits that were still there, so that was what was wrong. So, that’s what was wrong, they tried to get up the wrong place. The Germans then, were concentrating their fire power on the paths, not expecting somebody to come up straight up the hill. That’s right, that’s exactly right, Yup. So, you followed up then with supplies of food and ammunition and what not, your group did. Yup, Yup. And when you got to the top, what did you find there? (45:04) Well there was still a little fight going on the far side of the mountain, but they probably had it all cleaned up by then, so. Were they bringing the wounded back and ... Yup, oh yeah. So, this was not an easy battle. No. In fact we got ...........................................................instead of the pack I had on my back. I am going to have to ask you not to put your hand up there because you are blocking the microphone and I‟m afraid that we might not get all of these words. Okay. So, were you able to communicate at all back home, were you writing letters back to Betty or to your family and anything like that. I had a little code the first letter of each paragraph spelled out where I was. Anzeo. And I wondered how am I going to use that Z. Oh, I knew a kid that was nick named Zeke. So, I said have you see anything of Zeke has been around. So, she knew where I was. �So, tell me about Anzio. What was the preparation for it and what was your direct involvement? (46:16) Well they had a rough time getting on there because my platoon lieutenant was killed. The executive officer was killed and the captain was wounded severely and he never came back. So, they had a rough time getting there. But, this was across that Mussolini Canal on a couple of spots where they could get across and that is where they got it at. I wasn’t there at the time. So, when I got there, my first sergeant, who I was a good friend of was commissioned and he was my lieutenant then. And that is when he put me in charge of the mortar section, because it makes a difference whether you are a T-4 or a buck sergeant. If you’re a buck sergeant, you got control of men. With T-4 you’re just one of the guys, but it is the same pay. Right. And you were a T-4. I was a T-4. T for technical. Yup, Yup. How many people were in your immediate group - the mortar group? I had the bazooka men in my group. I had a rocket launcher in my group. I had about 6 people altogether with myself. Okay. What was your, you said that you handled the mortar, but what was your specific job? You drop the shell in and shoot it? Well, well, I did help that, but the reason why I got assigned to that was because I knew what 5 yards was. I knew what 100 yards was. Where most of these guys didn’t. So, even a lieutenant in another platoon would say, “Come on over here, I got a target down here and I know that my guys can’t hit it.” So, I would give them the yardage and they would fire it, and they would hit. But, I was proud of being able to do that. That’s why I got the job. Accuracy is important. Very important. (48:20) I remember those 5 yard line on that football field. Oh, of course! Of course! Uh you had mentioned about this Mussolini canal. advantages for you was there was a lot of dirt there you guys could dig in. One of the Oh yeah, we had good shelter. But when we got on the other side of that and across the canal you better take cover. �What happened? They would fire on you. So that was why we did so much night work. Most of out work was done at night. The shelling that was coming in, was that mortar fire as well as artillery? Mortar fire. Well not so much artillery because they knew they couldn’t do anything to us there. But, there was mortar and rifle. They would be on .... well in fact there was 3 regiments [battalions?] of Marines [Rangers?] on Anzio and 2 of those battalions went out on patrol one night and got captured all of them. The next day they marched down the main street of Rome. So that left one battalion of Marines there on the island. Well they were integrated into our outfit. It‟s strange for them to be integrated into your outfit. Well they had had more training then the regular... Right, oh yeah. So, so, we accepted then and they were with us until the outfit was broken up. Wow! But then all of them came with us into the 474, new regiment. Well, let‟s walk ourselves through Anzio though. I mean um. The battle itself - after the first group had come in. The Marines had come in. Some of them had been captured. What was the next step for you personally? What were you doing? Well when I arrived from the hospital, they were pretty well into these spots. (50:19) Alright, we jumped over the hospital part. How did you end up in the hospital? Pneumonia. And then I had an operation on my nose. I know that because we talked about it. But I want to go back then in terms of - what happened when you actually diagnosed - you were in a battle. I passed out. Okay. So, you were in battle and you passed out. Yeah. �And you passed out. I passed out twice. And so somebody came along and took you back to the aid station. Oh yeah, yeah. And that was when they diagnosed you with pneumonia. Right. No, no. They did at the first aid station. Then when I got down to the bottom there another aid station and the doctor looked at me there and the doctor looked at me there and he said, “Oh yeah, he’s got pneumonia, get him to hell out of here.” So I ended up on an ambulance and was in the hospital the next thing I knew. And they found out something about your nose as well. Seventy five percentage stoppage in both nostrils. You don‟t know why - you just developed it or....? Well I probably got hit on my nose in football or someplace. Oh, oh, okay. But when I woke up I knew it felt like it. So how long were you in the hospital? About 30 days. And then what happened after that? Went to Anzio. (51:35) But you were transferred out of there and Anzio had already been taken? Yup. Okay, so now you are coming into a secure area. And you arrived there and regrouped with your.... �Yeah, I arrived at night, so our company had quarters way back from the line really and they had a nice warm fire going in the fireplace of the house that they took over, so I slept there that night and then the next day they took me up to the front line. And what was your first day on the front line like? Quiet. Pat Harrison who had become an officer, Canadian, told me that “I am not going to send you out there right away Harold because you don’t know where to go.” So, he spent a day with me showing me where our in and outs were at and where the gates that we could get through, and the patrol when you took it out, and how to be quiet. And of course you are going to blacken face and arms before you go out there, because they have pretty good eye sight some of them. Well the first patrol I took out, he was with me. So, we got almost to the road, which is about that much higher than the ground around us, and they started firing at us. Well I laid down flat and I could see those doggone tracers going over my head. And I said, “Pat what are we going to do?” And he said, “Don’t get excited, this is kind of normal.” And I said, “Oh, is it?” And he said, “Did you bring some grenades?” And, I said, “I got 3-4, yes?” And he said, “Well how far can you throw?” I says, “Far enough to go on the other side of that road?” “Well get throwing them,” he says. So, then I threw a couple and we heard some screams and hollers and the firing stopped over there. So, he said, “Well they are taking off, so we might as well go back.” So, that was my first night out there. So, your mission, if you will, was to go out and find out where the Germans were and to engage the Germans? (53:53) Yeah, yeah, and to take prisoners really, so we could get information from them. So primarily, you were out there to try to take prisoners. Yeah, really, yeah. And this blackened face, this was burnt cork? Burnt cork, yeah, yeah. Now over time, the Germans started - you started to get rumors back that the Germans had reacted to these ...... Well they had captured one of couple of, even one of our officers. But of course, he was blackened to. But, that is where that thing came from. So the Germans started calling you what? The Black Devils. �Uh huh, and as I understand it some of your guys came up with a kind of interesting - the classical one from the GI‟s of course in Europe of course was “Kilroy was here”. But you guys kind of had a unique twist on that, and what was that? They used to leave like a message on a burned out tank, or a sticker on a burned out helmet. Yeah, a sticker. “The worst is yet to come.” I have to think every once in a while. That‟s alright. That‟s alright. That‟s alright. I understand. Germans prisoners? Did you actually capture any Yes. So, what happened? Tell me about that. Well, 2 of them had wandered away from their patrol group and we were in a gully and they came down through that gully and I jumped up and says, “Don’t make a noise. Don’t make a sound. If you make a sound, your dead.” So, I said, “Now you come. Follow this man that I am pointing to. You follow him, and don’t make any noise.” Well I got him back to camp alright so. What was their ----So you caught them by surprise? Oh yeah. So they didn‟t try to shoot you. (55:55) No, no. Their gun was slung over their shoulder yet. So, I said “Don’t make a move.” So when they go them back, they were then interrogated Yup. Were you ever part of the interrogations? No, we had a special guy for that. I think I might have said that he was from Norway and he spoke fluent German, and he came to the states, so they got him in our Army and he ended up in our outfit and in fact he went back there and married a gal in Norway, after the war was over. You mentioned earlier that he was very effective. Oh yeah. So, what kind of - well maybe you weren‟t privy to this, but what kind of information were you getting from these Germans? What were they telling you? �Where their groups were stationed at. Where their artillery was coming from, and we could practically tell that when it was fired. But, how many are in your group there? Do you have any reserves in back out you? Anything that he could pump out them. And he could make them talk. And then the information would be looked at and then decide, „okay you guys are going to check out this, and you guys are going to check out that, or you are going to take this out.‟ So, what were you doing immediately after this incident. You were just going on patrols on a regular basis? Oh yeah, unless they actually really wanted some more prisoners. Because sometimes he wouldn’t have anything to do - our interrogator. But, they were good soldiers, too. These Germans. (57:39) These were the actual German army. They were not the SS. These were not the old and feeble. The young ones that we started see towards of the war. Yeah, yeah. Regular German army. Yup. So this period of time you are going out and finding prisoners and what not. So what happened next? Did this go on for months or weeks? It went on for weeks like that really. And then where did you go from there? Rome. Ah. It was probably a good 20 miles anyway from where we were at. But there was the little town of Artina and another town where my friend got killed. Well, I don‟t want to jump too quickly here. Where was Ray while you were moving along through here? He had been in the hospital just before we pushed of from Anzio, but I didn’t know that. He had had jaundice. And when we got to Artina and we had taken that, we come down and got rid of the guys that were hurt. But then I heard somebody say, “Well you know 6 companies come under artillery attack over on Belmontone town.” And he said, “One guy was killed and the other was wounded pretty bad.” And I thought, “oh my gosh”. And they said, “That one guy just got out of the hospital, too.” And right away I knew who it was. But I never did see him. In fact I thought that his parents had brought him home to Flint and when we went back for that tour in 1984. We went out to the cemeteries. And they gave us a list of our people that were buried there. And I was going over that list when I was on the bus. “Betty”, I says, “Ray is buried here!” “What?” “There is his name”. So instead of going to the little talk they were going to give to us there, we started hunting, well guys that worked there couldn’t speak �any English. But, I showed him that name, “Oh, oh, oh” He says, and he took right to his grave and I was pleased because there was trees there and he could have shade a good part of the time. Where the rest of those were right out in the blasting sun. So, I felt better about it, but I really had thought that he had been taken home. You were part of a group that were the first ones into Rome. Yes, sure were. Well, I can‟t experience that, so please describe that to me. What was that like? (1:00:28) Well we entered at a certain gate area and then started for the river and the closer we got the more people there were along the streets. “Yay American, yay, American. Have a drink!” But we had to keep going because we had a job to do, but people just thought that is was wonderful that we were there. Now, I‟m trying to get a picture here. You were marching down the center, and people were just starting to come out and they are getting louder and louder and the celebration and all of that. Yah, yah. You are still having to move forward and there are people handing you stuff and what not. So how many men were in your group there walking through? Approximately, I am not looking for exact numbers. Well, my whole platoon was there that day and most of the company was too. So there was probably maybe 40-50 of us in one group. And then there were other groups coming after us. But we knew what our mission was, it was the bridges. But, actually when I got to the bridge where we were going to and I looked up and there was a German running way across the other side. But the bridge was still intact. So, lets backtrack. Your mission was to secure those 7 bridges because you thought that it was going to be destroyed. And so when you go there you saw the last vestiges of the Germans running away. Yah, we were chasing them so fast, I guess, that they just didn’t... they were getting out of there. But we had about almost 2 weeks in Rome, and in that time, I would walk around the river. And, one day a well dressed gentleman stopped me, spoke English. Wanted to know if he could have a little visit with me. Asked me if I was American, I said “Yes ,I am”. So we sat down and had a good talk. His son had been in the Italian Army. Of course they were all through and he was back home living with his family with his wife and little 6 year old girl. But he said, “How long are you going to be here”, and I said, “I really don’t know. They tell me how long I’m going to be here.” But he said, “Well could you come over to my place. It is just a couple of blocks off the river really.” So, went over one day and they welcomed me and I met the whole family and had a good visit with them. Finally, I says, “Well, what was your job here? What did you do?” He said, “I worked in the Hall of Justice. So he knew pretty much what was �going on, but he says, “Now, before you go, I want you to come over here and we will have a party, a dinner.” I says, “Well when is that, I don’t think we are going to be here long.” He says, “Well, how about the day after tomorrow.” I says, “Okay, if I can get away, I will be over.” So, I went over and they had a dinner. Spaghetti and bread. Nothing on the Spaghetti, just plain Spaghetti and bread. And, as soon as we finished, I thanked them and says, “Well, that was very nice.” “Well, now wait a minute. Don’t get excited,” he says. “I have been saving something all during the war. So he went down in the basement and he brought up a can of peaches about that big around and about that high. And he says, “I have been saving this all during the war for something special. Now this is it.” Well, I thought that was pretty nice. Actually, I stayed over night with them one night, and had my own room. I got on the feather tick bed and I suck down about that far. And is said, “Wow, I haven’t had anything this soft ever.” Because I had been used to sleeping on the ground and in the fox hole. But they were nice people. Now, I understand that you were friends with the cook. Around that time. (1:04:27) Oh yeah. This was in Norway. Oh, okay. This was in Norway, because we were only there 2 weeks in Rome and then we went to Lake Albano, which is where the cooks home was, right on the water there. So we had a 2 week rest there. So, where did you go from Rome then? We were getting ready for Southern France. And we had got some more recruits in. So, we... Now these recruits that are coming in now, who are these guys? Well, guys that had basic training I guess. These were not special force? No, no. Okay, these are just ....okay. But, we gave them some amphibious training in the ocean, while we had them there, because we were right on the ocean practically. But some of them worked out all right and others thought this was a hoax. But they learned in a hurry that there wasn’t any hoax, that it was the real thing. But Southern France wasn’t too bad really. Well, what was your mission there? The 2 islands off of the coast had to be taken before the main invasion came in, and again here we went in by destroyer and rubber boats and made the invasion. Had hardly any trouble really. �But there were Germans...? They were on there, they were on there, yes. So, there was a fire fight, there was a ......okay. Yup, yup. And there was several casualties, but not too bad. (1:06:11) What about the weather? Because we think of the invasion of Normandy that the weather was so bad and we had to delay and everything. So did you run into that stuff at all? It was summer time there. Oh, okay. So, as soon as we cleared those islands, they brought us back on shore and then we started going south liberating these little towns. The Germans were on the run anyway at that time. Who was in charge of this operation at the top? Well, I think that it was still part of Clark’s. But by then, Fredericks had become a General and he came in with a bunch of guys and dropped them not too far from the main landing area. So we had that cleared. And then I don’t know exactly where they went from there, because it was our group that was clearing all of these little towns out. But there were hardly and Germans left around and we ended up just outside of Nice, France, and a little town of Biot Abbé. And that was we were deactivated at. And that was not an easy moment for you guys. (1:07:30) No, no. Because one morning they called everybody out to line up in formation. They had all of out there all lined up where we were supposed to be and then they said that the Canadians were going to be moved out. So, they said, “Canadians move out.” And then when they did, then they told us to close ranks and nobody moved. Nobody moved. Because we felt like brothers, you know, to these guys by then. And we were going to lose them. But the older ones really were sent to England and became instructors there because they were getting a lot of recruits over in England for the main invasion. And the recruits that we picked up along the way, they were sent to regular Army Units wherever they might be. That also happened to out outfit. That we had a lot of recruits that didn’t have much training really, but the ones that still had the wings, the paratroopers. Part of those were sent to the Bulge, which was in the Bulge at that time - 82nd Airborne and the 101st Airborne was looking for paratroopers and some of ours was sent to the 101st because they were going to be dropped into Holland. Where did you go? To form this new unit. To form the new [4]74th. I was asked to stay in and help with that. �So, what was your specific job? What were you supposed to be doing? (1:09:28) Well, when we go these new recruits, I was an acting First Sergeant for one of the companies. Wasn’t my own company, but when I had that done, I came back to my own company. I was second in command of the platoon. Was a technical sergeant then. So, what was your mission from there? Well, that was when we got these guys recruited and we went into Germany. Okay. We went in at Aachen, I remember when we went in at Aachen. You walked in? Yup, yup. What did you find? Well we were to hunt along this quarter that Patton had gone through, because he goes through like greased lightened and he leaves a lot of the Nazis along on the sides. Well, some of the guys were real nasty, but that is the ones we had to look for and find and get and then get them to a prison, prisoner of war camp. (1:10:29) So, were yourself and your group capturing prisoners along the way? Yeah, yeah. What were the state of the prisoners that you were getting? You talked earlier of German Army people. What were you finding as you were going into Germany? Well, some of the older guys, I think, were glad to be captured, and some of the younger ones thought that they were still, ah, hot stuff. Then you had to use a little strain on them. But you are talking about the actual fighting? The action? Yeah, yeah. And they finally, they either stand up or ....how do they surrender by the way? Do they just stick there hands up in the air, or wave a flag, or.....? �Well, when they see us coming they dropped their gun and some of them will start to run, but if we fire a shot over their head, they stopped. But were you finding as you moved into Germany less and less of a quality fighting man? Tell us about that. Well, well, like I say these older guys, I’m sure felt that they wished that war was over with because they had been in it even longer than we had so, but a lot of them were ready to lay down their guns and go to a prisoner of war camp for awhile. So, once you captured them they were then.... Taken to a camp. Somebody took them to a camp. You were still going on, you were moving forward. Yup, yup. So where did you end up? Close to Nuremberg. Wasn’t in there, but close to it. Then they pulled us back and sent us to Northern France, just outside of Cherbourg, that big port there. But we made a tent city out of it and trained these recruits a little more, so we figured that they could do things that we would like them to do. We are running out of time here, but I want to make sure that we get back to this. What was the Champagne Campaign? Why did they call it the Champagne Campaign? (1:12:28) Well because you could get Champagne along the way any place that you wanted it. I guess. Really. So you are moving through a village, so they wait until you are taken out... That was wine country there. But you also mention about the lack of water. Yeah, at times we were told that we couldn’t .... well that was we was in our way into Rome really. “Don’t drink the water,” we were told so. And if they didn’t have time ...they put a lister bag up for us with chemicals in it to make it right, but that didn’t happen when you were on the run. So you were actually drinking wine along the way. Sometime, sometimes. �Now, at some point - we are going to have to continue this on at a later date because there just so much more to go - but you end up actually in Norway. When you first started out you were supposed to go into Norway and you never made it to Norway. Now you are in Norway. What were you doing in Norway? (1:13:30) Gathering up the Germans. There was about 300,000 Germans up there and they all had to be gathered up and brought to a place where we disclosed [?] them and stripped them down and took everything away from the except their clothes. Put them on a ship and send them back to Germany. So your job was basically to control this huge group of German prisoners - make sure that they don‟t have any weapons or anything like that. Yup, that’s right. And then get them processed to go back to Germany. Yup, yup. And, but the Germans have all of those warehouses. Talk about those warehouses. Well they had them stacked full of food and wine. In fact when we were in Norway, even well the first 3 graders of the non-coms got a 3 bottle deal of wine of champagne each week, and you can imagine what the officers had. But, meanwhile while all of this food and wine were at the warehouses for the occupying Germans, what about the Norwegians. They were going in for it. No I mean before, in other words they didn‟t have an access there. They didn‟t have food. They were........ Oh, not until we got there, and then they were able to start getting stuff. Now you had an actual example of meeting up with a Norwegian man. Talk about that. Well, as I told you he was a retired sea captain, he told me. And he spoke good English. He had about a 14 year old daughter and a 12 year old boy I’d say and his wife. But she could not speak English at all, where the kids could because it was required subject at that time. And, so any time I’d go, I would take them something that the cook would give me to give to me and when ever she would see me coming, she would just break out in tears. She knew I had something for her that they hadn’t had in years. What were you bringing her? (1:15:44) �Well, sugar, ah, like the Crisco stuff that they never had seen before. Maybe sugar. Hadn’t seen any sugar in a long time. So really, the basics that they would need to kind of make their meal. Yup, yup, that’s right. And a.... That‟s actually a lot better then bringing her a ham or a chicken, because all of that stuff can be used or other things. Oh yeah. Even popcorn they hadn’t seen in years, and the cook he had some popcorn and he says, “Give them some of that.” Well I took it and they popped it and thought that that was just wonderful. And I even took some real butter along to put on it. Oh my gosh, wow. So when was it that you heard that the war in Europe was over with. Close to Nuremberg. Okay, so you already new before you went in Norway. Yup, yup. Was there any thought that you might have to go to Japan? Uh, yes. But, I wasn’t letting that bother me because I had been through enough all ready and I was glad that I didn’t accept that commission, because if that had happened, I know where I would have been. So you were actually offered a commission that would have sent you to the Pacific. Yes, yes I was, yup, yup. And you figured well that‟s enough. So, you wind up in Norway - Norway is where you find out about V-J day. Was that where you were when you ........ Oh yes, yes. Okay, so now you know the war is over with. Yup, we knew it was over. And you got a chance to go home. In fact I had me whole platoon go into town and try to find something to eat or drink and they stayed out too late, and I got called in the next morning by the captain. And he says, “You are an awfully good man �Harold, but I really can’t blame you for what you did last night,”, and he says, “you guys deserved a little break, so we will just forget this. But on the way home, when we left Norway, he gave me a commendation. And I couldn’t believe how great he was in saying what I did and how much I meant to him for what I did, so. So, where did you arrive in the states? (1:18:05) New York. Oh, man! We come into New York and I thought - most of our guys were down below gambling, rolling dice or shooting craps or whatever - I says I’m going up, I had never seen that Statue or Liberty. We went right by it. And while I am standing there looking at it, my captain came up and he says. I figured I’d see you here Harold and he says. You were one of my best men that I had. Well, I said, “Thank you sir.” But he was a nice guy. He had been a teacher at college, too. Be he originally was a lieutenant in another regiment, but I ended up in his company in the 474th and, but he really gave a good recommendation. What was the......, I know that this is difficult and a long time ago, but what was the feeling of seeing that Statue of Liberty? I had tears in my eyes. That’s how I felt. I’m back home safe. Here I am and what I’ve been through, I’ve got to thank the Lord that he brought me through all of this. I’m a Christian. I‟ve got 2 more questions for you, and these are the tough ones. You finally get back home. Did you arrive by train, when you got home? I did. Was the family there to meet you? Betty was there. I had to arrive in Detroit from New York. And she was there waiting for me. You‟re in uniform. Yeah, I am. And you get off the train and there she is. (1:19:51) Yup. What was that like? �In heaven. Well, I had a bag of stuff that I brought home of souvenir type things, so I says set in the back there and I will show you these and tried to get in the car and the door was locked. So, there was a garage right there and the guy says. You left your key in the other door. So, then I got the other key and got in. But then she says, “You want to drive.” And I says, “No way! Not down these streets of Detroit. Although, I did help drive the truck a lot of the times because my driver would go to sleep on me. I says, “Pull it over”. I says, “Get on the other side”. So I would drive the 6x6 hauling the guys in the back of it. And I enjoyed it really. Now, let me get this straight. You didn‟t want to drive in Detroit because it was too dangerous. Well those cars were going like this you know. And I love to drive. I love to drive. One more. How do you feel your military experience shaped the person you are today? (1:21:16) It had a lot to do with it. It had a lot to do with it. I knew how to take orders and I knew how to give orders. I knew how to behave when I had to behave and I respected my officers and they all respected me because of the way I acted. Well sir, I want to thank you very much for taking the time. I want to thank John Friends as well, who brought you here. This has been a remarkable interview and I feel very honored that you have sat down and had a chance to talk to me. Well I appreciate it. Thank you for your kind words. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SibleyH0757V Title A name given to the resource Sibley, Harold (Interview transcript and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sibley, Harold Description An account of the resource Harold Sibley was born in Grand Lake, Michigan in 1921. After graduating from high school, he tried to enlist in the Navy Air Corps, but was rejected due to his eyesight. Later on, he was drafted into the Army and eventually volunteered for the First Special Force, the predecessor to the Green Berets. Harold was a mortar man for the special force and was sent to the Aleutian Islands, Anzio, Southern France, Rome, Nuremburg and many other places throughout Western Europe. He was in Norway processing German prisoners of war when the war ended. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-06-27 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ba89cfc927e07432ad4af3190d6fe388.m4v 5b5e569a34c9178a316503bf26d44cb7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f3536f4a5d2de3b120f4bfd44064253.pdf 5886758f57f520146a1f4e340756df8c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Interviewee: Philip Shook Length of Interview: 00:24:51 Background:      He was born in Caledonia, Michigan. Before he joined the service, he worked in a factory. He father served in WWII and his brother would serve at the same time as he would, though he would not go overseas. He was drafted into the service. He would go to Detroit for his first physical. He would leave March 1964. He did not like it, but he was not getting out of it, so he left. Training: (1:30)        He would then be sent to Fort Knox for basic training. The training itself was nothing he could not handle, but he did not like it. There was a lot of harassment. Basic training would last 8 weeks. After basic training, he was sent to Fort Riley, Kansas for AIT training. He was then put into a mechanized infantry unit. He would train daily. He had to learn to live with a lot of different guys. The food was not too bad compared to the rations he got when he was overseas. He left for Vietnam 1965. He took a troop ship over to Vietnam. The trip would take 21 days. When he got his orders to go to the South Pacific, he would load up trains to take them to California. Active Duty: (5:45)       His ship would land in Vung Tau. From there he would be taken to Bien Hoa. While he was there, he and the others would do more physical training while waiting for their orders. When they got their orders they would go to a place called Phuoc Vinh, where they would build their base camp. When he first landed, he found it interesting because it was different from what he was used to. The children were always there waving and they would take candy, cigarettes, and whatever else you would throw at them. It was hot and rainy there. When they were in their staging area, they were keeping everything ready for when they had to go to their base camp. �           When they got to their base camp, they had to set a perimeter. They would have to secure an area for them and three or four other companies who would be there with them. During the night, they would send out ambushing stakeouts. They would also set up mine fields, put up sand bags, put up tents, etc. They did whatever they needed to do to set up camp. He did have to go out on the ambush stakeouts. It was not pleasant. You were there for the night, through rain and anything else. When he would run search and destroy missions, then he would run into some snipers and he and the others would get into a firefight. During his missions he would carry a belt with ammo, a pack with basic supplies, such as steel pot. Sometimes he would carry a radio. It was about 60 pounds that he would carry. He would make friends with a lot of the guys that he served with there and would still keep in touch with a few of them today. He had some interactions with the natives, but not a whole lot. You did not get out and visit the locals very much. (11:00) He would fly out in helicopters and do search and destroy missions. If they came up against any resistance, they would call in an airstrike. He saw a few of those while he was out on a mission. They would also have artillery support, which would sometimes come in pretty close to where they were. He would communicate with his family back home via letters. He did not write as often as he would have liked to, but it was hard to write when you were out in the jungle when everything was wet. When he was of duty, they would drink beer and watch movies. There was a lot of exercising, but not a lot of time off. He spent 6 months in the service and then his time was up. Post Duty: (13:40)         After came back home, he went back to work at the factory for a while. Then he eventually made his was to Steelcase where he worked until he retired. He was pulled out in 1965 and the war was not over until 1975. So he was out for 10 years before the war was actually over. The night before he was supposed to leave, he was on guard duty. They were mortared and everyone hit the ditch. Luckily, no one was hurt. When he got home, he experienced some anti-war protests. It did not really bother him so much and most of his buddies around the area were not like that. The high school band played for him when he got home. That wasn’t the norm. While he was in the military, he learned how to get along with all different kinds of people and you learned that you could not get much done yourself. It took teamwork. There were not a lot of problems when it came to discrimination among the races. He is now part of the American Legion in Caledonia, the VFW of Grand Rapids and the 28th Infantry Association. It was very easy adjusting to life back home. �     Richard shows some of his paperwork from the Army. There are also pictures from basic training, unit picture, pictures from after the Army. (17:00) He also shows a map and where he was. He also shows his medals and dogtags. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShookP Title A name given to the resource Shook, Philip (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shook, Philip Description An account of the resource Philip Shook was drafted into the Army in 1964. He spent six months in Vietnam in a small base camp at Phuoc Vinh north of Saigon. His main duty as a soldier was to go out on search and destroy missions on helicopters. He was responsible for calling in airstrikes and artillery fire. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Coolman, Craig (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d3a0d3a951432d28b1c7f477c058ac3.mp4 642fa39d1d67d73cb01615686627e6c6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dd4cd2ec3fbca93b3bec8654ffa6563c.pdf 9995060ac045364de17fe9893c946f47 PDF Text Text Interview Notes Interview Length (16:00) Jay Shook World War II Veteran Korean War Veteran US Navy Pre-Enlistment Lived in Caledonia when he signed up for the Navy (0:35) Signed up for travel and adventure (0:47) Training Was trained at Great Lakes, Illinois (0:55) Was there for 8 weeks (1:00) Very physical training (1:15) Took a train to Detroit, Michigan for his physical, then went to Great Lakes (1:50) Enlistment World War II During WWII, went to Camp Shoemaker in San Francisco, California (2:00) Went to Hawaii aboard the USS General George Squire, a troop transport (2:20) Was assigned to a destroyer, the USS Bailey where he stayed for the next few years (2:40) Had a great experience in Hawaii (2:50) Main duties on the Bailey was to escort LST’s and LSI’s to various islands throughout the Pacific (4:00) First campaign action was at the island of Saipan (4:30) October 1st, 1944, campaign was just finishing up at Palau, but the destroyer received two strafing attacks and put it out of commission (5:15) Was sent alone to be repaired (5:40) Wasn’t able to be repaired in the Pacific, was sent back to the States (6:15) Saw action in the Philippine campaign (6:20) Kept in touch mostly by letter with his family (6:50) Traveled throughout the Pacific Theatre, also went to Florida Island, down by New Zealand (8:00) Service in WWII ended when the ship was decommissioned in May of 1946 (10:00) Still in the Naval Reserve after he was out of the Navy (12:50) Korean Conflict In the summer of 1950, he was called back up to serve in the Navy (13:15) Had 10 days to get things back in order and back to Great Lakes (13:30) Picked up a new ship, USS Bryce Canyon, in Charleston, South Carolina (13:40) Job was to service other ships with food, water, maintenance (14:20) Landed initially Yokosuka, Japan, and went around to other naval bases in Japan every few months (14:45) Took crews into the war zone, primarily so officers could collect combat pay (15:00) �Never saw action in Korea (15:30) Was discharged in 1951 in San Diego, CA (15:50) Post-Enlistment Doesn’t remember going home and going right back to work (10:30) Made many close friends in the service that have lasted through the years (10:45) After WWII, was a fireman for the Grand Rapids School system (11:30) WWII had a profound influence on his life (12:30) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShookJ0754V Title A name given to the resource Shook, Jay (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shook, Jay Description An account of the resource Jay Shook served in the US Navy in World War II and the Korean War. He served in the Pacific Theater in World War II on the USS Bailey, a destroyer, and escorted LSI's and LSG's in to landing zones. During the Korean War, Jay served on the USS Bryce Canyon, a Destroyer class maintenance ship. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Leatherman, Sara (Interviewer) Mulder, Leslie (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-06-04 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78a192e9a7c04c81e934a4384be06346.m4v b37326276a5013519744345637e78ace https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/893a9af2bd5e712b55f9efff0c1b9605.pdf 22af97059090dd58c50626106d51bc18 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Eugene Shoemaker Length: 37:31 (00:25) Background Information     Eugene was born in Byron Center, Michigan in 1927, where he grew up and went to high school He had 4 sisters, his father drove trucks and mother worked in Grandville Eugene had been hoping the war would be over by the time he was drafted After high school he worked for about a year on his grandfather’s farm, but was not able to get deferment from the draft (2:50) Moving Around  Eugene was sent to Fort Sheridan in Illinois, but then shortly moved to Fort Montgomery in Alabama  They took a day long train ride and it was the first train he had ever been on  He was given a physical and took many written exams so that they could determine where they would be placing him  Eugene was in Alabama for only 1 week receiving shots and was then sent to New York, and then Massachusetts  He never went through any real training and was just being sent from one place to another (6:45) Iceland  Finally in November of 1945 Eugene took a plane to Iceland, which seemed like it was about to break down for the whole flight  They needed typists in Iceland and Eugene had learned how to type in high school  He first worked on files for enlisted men and then began on payroll  Eugene later worked in special services, running the camp newspaper for about 8 months  They were staying in Reykjavik, which was a refueling base for aircraft crossing to ocean to Europe and back  There were only 2 permanent aircraft on the base; a B-17 rescue plane and another that was used for training pilots  There were many ground personnel, engineers, and servicemen for the planes that were constantly stopping in (10:15) Working in Iceland  It was always between 20-50 degrees and for some reason crops grew very quickly there  Eugene stayed in the same place the whole time while in Iceland �    He helped print the history of the Army in Iceland while he was there and there was usually not much to report in the camp newsletter They had a Class-A pass, meaning Monday through Friday they had to work 8-4, and then once they were finished they were free to do as they please There was not much to do on the time off and only one bar in town that the Americans could go to because the civilians did not like them There were never any emergencies or high alert situations (16:50) Scenery  Eugene and others were able to take plane trips to fly over the North Pole in B-17s  They just crossed over the area, which was covered with ice and did not have much else to see  Trees would generally not grow in Iceland; many claimed the Vikings had cut them all down for lumber and they would just never grow back  There was much beautiful greenery and flowers, hot springs in the country, and only 1 road going through it all  All the towns ran off the hot springs, but their base used gasoline  They ate their own C-rations, not the local food (22:40) Leaving Iceland  Eugene was in Iceland through August of 1946; he was no longer needed once the war was over  There was also a British base near theirs, where the men went a little crazy when they heard the news of the war’s end and the Americans had to go over there to settle them down  Eugene was sent to Springfield, Massachusetts and then transferred to the 1386 Air Force Unit before he discharged soon after  He moved back to Michigan and began working at a factory for about 20 years and then got into construction  Being in the service was an experience that Eugene learned a lot from, but he would never do it again or recommend it to anyone else (28:30) Cigarettes and Paris  The men all received a certain amount of cigarettes each month, but Eugene did not smoke so he would trade his  At one point they had to take a plane to Paris to drop off cigarettes to the service men staying there  The men were all waiting for them when they arrived and they really wanted their cigarettes �  Eugene and a few others stayed in Paris for a week and were able to go sight seeing The French people were nice to them, but Eugene suspected they just wanted cigarettes � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShoemakerE Title A name given to the resource Shoemaker, Eugene (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shoemaker, Eugene Description An account of the resource Eugene Shoemaker was born in Byron Center, Michigan in 1927 and was drafted into the in 1945. He was sent to many different states and took many tests before they could decide what they would be doing with him. In November of 1945, Eugene was flown to Iceland, without having any training at all. He had learned how to type in high school and they needed typists at the base, which was used or refueling aircraft to and from Europe. Eugene worked in Iceland thought August of 1946 and learned a lot from his experience in the service, but would not recommend it to anyone. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Forces Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7745c137177f44e212c1ef6d3453e8c2.mp4 6412b530e74b213be76c6dfa15bc92d6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/85416032e0d3f03a5969c47b205cd617.pdf 42b97b5585fe0ddd8574a90353c49f14 PDF Text Text John Shipley (7:56) -Served in the United States Army and the National Guard from 1971-2006 -Fought in Viet Nam, the Cold War, and Panama (0:30) Life Before Enlistment • He had been a student at Grand Rapids Junior College • John is from Detroit, MI (1:20) Reasons for Joining the Army • The timing was right • Many friends were coming home “in boxes” so he did what he felt was right • His father was in the Army in World War Two with General Patton (1:49) First Days in the Service • He was sent to Fort Polk in Louisiana for training • They were “fun-filled” days • This is when he first started spending time with people from other parts of the country • He found out that there was more to the world than just Michigan (2:15) Service • He was in the US Army and the National Guard, 3rd Battalion, 6th Infantry • He was in the 46th Infantry Brigade, Engineer Brigade from the 38th Infantry Division • He is now retired from the service (2:40) Most Memorable Moments • John enjoyed watching people whom he had mentored get promoted • He liked to see people succeed (3:03) How the Military Changed His Life • The service gave him great insight as to why the world is the way that it is • He learned about the actions of nation-states • He was educated on many other aspects of the world • He made many friends in the service (4:00) Duties in the Service • John started out as a combat medic in Texas • He advanced to the Non-Commissioned Officer Corps • He retired as the Command Sergeant of the Engineer Brigade, 38th Infantry Division (4:20) Experience with Combat • He experienced some combat �(4:40) Spending of Time • Many jobs were assigned to him that were extremely challenging • They spent 24 hours a day being busy • There was barely any free time, but when there was he liked to play poker • Often he trained and mentored others (5:15) Basic Training • Started in 1971 and there are many things from that time that are now out of date, such as hand-to-hand combat • He learned survival skills, how to work well with others, to respect others opinions and how to work well in a team successfully • The drill sergeants were mean (6:15) Most Important Lessons Learned • Respect others opinions • Everyone has a right to their own opinion (7:00) Post Cold War • He worked for a Michigan telephone company as a manager • He retired from that job just near the same time that he retired from the National Guard � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShipleyJ Title A name given to the resource Shipley, John (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shipley, John Description An account of the resource John Shipley was in the U. S. Army and National Guard from 1971 through 2006. He served as a Command Sergeant Major during Viet Nam, the Cold War, and in Panama. While John did not talk much of his 35 years in the service, he did say that he learned a lot about how the world works and about the behavior of nation-states. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kerr, Kathryn (Interviewer) Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b59841c393dd98a0a35e08e469aa3cab.mp4 61418d345db0934577e957136e821571 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a10c748c7a458eaf1d5e819e1d1eeb79.pdf 0832626436167eeabb3fef08615941a0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Rachel Shilakes Total Time (01:05:55) Introduction (00:00:09)  Rachel was born on November 14th, 1983 in Rochester, Michigan and grew up in Romeo, Michigan (00:00:26)  Her immediate family included Rebecca, her mother, father and brother (00:00:36) ◦ She had always been intending to go into the military and in 2005 she finally joined; her brother, father, uncles, and grandfathers all went into the military- she joined the Army (00:02:14) ◦ She went directly into the National Guard; it allowed her to follow on with her civilian career as well as provide service (00:02:57) ▪ She worked with recruiters six months prior to starting basic training; there was a lot of useful learning she gained from this experience (00:04:26) ▪ She went through basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri in January of 2006- her Advanced Individual Training was done at Ft. Sam Houston, Texas (00:04:46)  At basic training the physical training was intensive but they started relatively slow and worked their way up (00:06:04)  She was in a unit that had both men and women and ended up working out very well (00:06:30) ◦ A third of her training regiment was female (00:07:02) ◦ Basic training lasted around eight weeks plus a week of ceremonies and such (00:09:02) ▪ Triage was one of the biggest focuses in Rachel's AIT at Ft. Sam Houston; it included how to deal with the severity of injuries (00:11:28) ▪ Rachel was assigned to the 1171st Area Support Medical Company out of Ypsilanti, Michigan (00:14:12)  Rachel and her unit provide vaccinations, health assessments for all soldiers, and soldier readiness; in addition, they are required to be prepared to be deployed and operate a field medical hospital (00:14:38)  She did that for about six months and was tasked out to a regional training institute in Battle Creek, Michigan (00:16:55) ◦ Rachel worked as the medical Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) in charge (00:17:09) ◦ She put herself on the National Deployment List in hopes of being deployed (00:17:44) ◦ In November 2007 she received notice to be deployed; she would be assigned to the 1463rd Transportation Company out of Wyoming, Michigan (00:18:01) ◦ Rachel did some refresher medical training for a little over a month before her and the unit flew out to Kuwait and then to Iraq (00:20:51) Iraq (00:20:51)  Rachel and her unit flew into Camp Bucca [?] in Iraq near the Kuwait border near the Persian � Gulf (00:21:46) The first two months their Rachel worked in a medical clinic for roughly 200 detainees by providing medical care, evaluations, medications for about ten hours a day (00:23:11) ◦ She had a pretty good relationship with her detainees as far as how they treated her went (00:24:09) ◦ Her living situation wasn't too bad she lived in 15x20 steel constructed pods with four to five other people (00:26:28) ▪ The local population understood the United States wasn't going to be there forever and the situation stayed the same for Rachel (00:29:09) ▪ Rachel spent about two months working with detainees then spent the rest of her time working for the Air Force on area security (00:29:35)  The hostile activity started to ramp up as Rachel was leaving but overall there wasn't much (00:32:33)  As a medic Rachel carried a M4 Rifle and a M9 Pistol (00:33:26) ◦ The local population was mixed on the United States being there as it wasn't uncommon for bricks or rotten food to be thrown (00:34:28) ▪ Rachel mentions that sometimes the local population although very poor were very hospitable and would offer whatever they had (00:36:36) ▪ Overall the morale of the American forces declined over time- she mentions the Air Force would come in very motivated and positive but the environment they were in wore off on a lot of people (00:37:34) ▪ Rachel had plenty of opportunities to speak with family and friends due to the availability of internet access (00:38:48)  To reflect on the decreased deployment numbers in Iraq, non essential personal were sent to Kuwait (00:41:23) Back to the United States (00:41:49)  Rachel went through out-processing in New Jersey for about two weeks; she had to go through extensive briefings, out-processing for medical and then she was sent home (00:42:17) ◦ After she went home, Rachel enrolled at Macomb Community College to get back into her civilian career (00:42:35) ▪ Rachel heard from a friend that the 507th Engineer Battalion needed medics for their deployment and was given the go ahead to go around early 2011 (00:43:32) ▪ They shipped out in late Spring of 2012 for Afghanistan (00:44:17)  The operation her unit was going on was to look for IED's and supporting the engineer companies (00:44:54) Afghanistan (00:47:07)  She and her unit flew out to Manas AFB in Kyrgyzstan and then to Camp Leatherneck in Afghanistan (00:47:34) ◦ Within her battalion, the injuries were relatively low but their sister company did have a fatality and sent a couple out via medevac for blast injuries (00:49:54) ◦ The medics rotated on missions; on one of her last operations Rachel's vehicle rolled over a pressure plate IED and she was injured (00:51:17) ▪ All of the injuries sustained in that instance was from blast pressure and not from any foreign shrapnel or anything like that (00:53:33) ▪ Rachel was flown out from Kandahar AFB and eventually to Ft. Belvoir in Virginia for �surgery (00:55:08) Back to the United States (00:55:08)  Rachel was at Ft. Belvoir til June of 2013; she underwent therapy and a surgery while being in a wheel chair for two months (00:56:17)  Although she wanted to rotate back to her unit, the process is quite costly and the National Guard did not want her to (00:57:56)  Currently Rachel serves with the 1171st as a medic- she still goes to school and keeps in contact with the 507th (00:58:22) ◦ She comments that her life really started when she came into the military- the lifestyle and deployment changes people; she didn't come home as the same person and she'll never be the same person she was (01:00:45) ◦ Rachel comments that a lot of the flak the Veterans Affairs receives is quite justified and provides an example of that happening to her friend (01:03:08) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShilakesR1575V Title A name given to the resource Shilakes, Rachel (Interview outline and video), 2014 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilakes, Rachel Description An account of the resource Rachel Shilakes was born in 1983 in Rochester, Michigan. In 2005, Rachel joined the Army and went directly into the National Guard as it allowed her to follow on with her civilian career. She did her basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood in Missouri in January of 2006 as her Advanced Individual Training was done at Ft. Sam Houston in Texas. Rachel was assigned to the 1171st as a medic for the Area Support Medical Company out of Ypsilanti, Michigan. She learned in November of 2007 that she would be deployed to Iraq with the 1563rd Transportation Company out of Wyoming, Michigan. They went to Iraq and were based out of Camp Bucca near the Persian Gulf and Kuwait border. After her deployment she returned home and enrolled at Macomb Community College. She joined the 507th Engineer Battalion and shipped out to Afghanistan in Spring of 2012. Her deployment was cut short as her vehicle hit an IED. She went through multiple surgeries to her feet and head. She rehabbed for about eight months at Ft. Belvoir in Virginia. She currently serves the 1171st as a medic. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American United States. National Guard Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-03-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c1d6a608bdc26f81f329a8ac2b970e0.mp4 037974ae2b2b2e0527a0656750fe78c8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/919114b4f51d034d98f244ffa55188cb.pdf ce3001cd8386a49925f7c3f49260043d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II Don Sheridan Length of Interview (00:48:10) Background Born in Allendale Township, Michigan, lived on a farm; 1926 Attended Tuttle School until 8th grade, then to Allendale High School (1941), and Coopersville High School (1943) Had to ride with a cousin to Coopersville until they finally got their first school bus It wasn‟t uncommon for most kids to graduate in 8th or 10th grade; during the depression, more would drop out Had an uncle who had ten children and had their land foreclosed on them during the Depression; Sheridan had a brother and two sisters Farm was self-sustaining Would trade goods with stores for groceries Finished high school in June 1943 Had already signed up with the Navy before graduating Was aware of what was going on in Europe, but not deeply involved Remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor when in the barn listening to the radio Navy (00:03:30) Enlisted in his senior year in high school; Navy V-12  A program for graduating students, led to officer‟s training  Didn‟t go through with it, needed higher marks Went into the Navy  Was a member of the Sea Scouts in high school, had little boating experience After enlisting, sent to George Williams College in Chicago; YMCA college (00:04:45) � There for eight months  Training, basically, equivalent to one year in college  Still was in the officer training program, at the time  Much more confined experience  Did some physical training: marching, etc.  Others in the program were from the mid-west, right out of high school  His grades took him to boot camp Sent to Great Lakes for basic training  Since he grew up on the farm, acclimating to the early hours and physical training wasn‟t too hard  Discipline was never an issue Pre-schooling for Radio Technicians in the Naval Armory in Michigan City, Indiana; 4-week course (00:07:20) Was sent there even though his weakest subject was math Bottom third would be sent back to Great Lakes to choose another school Chose signal school, better at communicating Learned Morse code, Semaphores, flag signaling, etc.; mostly visual Radio was still in its early stages, no short range radio Primarily used Morse code (with a light) Had to be able to decode 15 words per minute Fall 1944, completed training �Assigned (00:09:20) Sent to another 4-week school for specialty training in Merchant‟s signaling system for convoys; in Great Lakes More specialized in civilian communication, different protocol Assigned a crew at the Armed Guard Center and sent to a ship at the harbor of a loading dock in Philadelphia Went to the armed guard center for about a week (Boston) Naval Guards performed gunnery and communications Needed to know codes for both merchant marine ships and naval ships, communication in a convoy S.S. John M. Harland, liberty ship: 450 feet long 10,000 dwt, “Kaiser Coffins”, mass produced (five days from start to finish), highly expendable (00:11:35) A new group of Naval Guards going in, about 12-14 men  Two 3inch 50 caliber machine guns, eight 20 mm anti-aircraft guns  Some other ships had heavier guns, 4 inch or 5 inch, with a crew of 20-25 people  Led by “90-day wonders” (Ensign or Lieutenant J.G); one was a lawyer and older gentleman  Four bunks in the compartment, not too crowded Went down the river from Philadelphia to Chesapeake Bay stayed there for three days to assemble a convoy (100 ships) (00:14:25) Early November, headed for Straits of Gibraltar; some of the stormiest weather when first heading out Fortunately Sheridan didn‟t get seasick, but most others did; not too worried about capsizing Had morning and evening watches, alternated signaling hours  Still on duty during storms; preferred being able to see the waves than feel the motion Remembers the crew being calm about it, was routine The rest of the voyage was relatively smooth afterward, no U-boat scares �Very little communication with the escort Would get messages, had to pass the messages „down the line‟ Ships were usually several hundred yards apart Middle East, North Africa (00:18:40) After the Straits of Gibraltar, the convoy broke up to sail independently Went through the Suez Canal, never lost steerage way until the Red Sea  Entered at Port Said, Egypt  Saw incredible sights of other smaller boats sailing, primarily skiffs and rowboats  Continued down the Red Sea Stopped at Aden, Captain and Lieutenant went ashore Proceeded around the Arabian Peninsula and into the Persian Gulf Made port at Khorramshar, Iran (Persia at the time) where cargo would be sent to Russia  Trucks, crates, lubricating oil, etc.  Everyone allowed ashore  Segregated from the civilian/local population, not a very populated location  Spent two weeks unloading Proceeded upriver Shatt al-Arab River (juncture of Tigris and Euphrates) up to Basra, Iraq and loaded barley destined for Sicily (00:22:18) Iraq was considered the „bread-basket‟ of the Middle East While there, the merchant crew demanded they be paid if they ran the life boat as a liberty launch Instead Sheridan steered the life boat himself Seldom went ashore (in Basra) Went reverse route and through the Suez again, never set foot on the African continent (Egypt) (00:23:50) �Sent to Catania, Sicily and unloaded barely, then to Palermo, Sicily where an Army Truck Tire Plant there Proceeded to North Africa, for one night, to load ballast; then home Catania [Sicily] was a lovely city, about the size of Grand Rapids, during spring Bum boats would buy cigarettes from the men for $20 a carton (they cost only 50 cents), had a lot of spending money Merchant marine sailors were a congenial crew, sometimes worked with them; 40 men Close to Mt. Etna, didn‟t do much sight-seeing Pacific Northwest (00:26:30) Went back to the States, picked up a convoy in Gibraltar  A routine voyage; when entering the Gulf Stream (visible due to the water‟s change in color), the convoy would move into a diamond-shape pattern due to its strong currents, then back to a square-shape pattern Back in the U.S. April ‟45, given a four-day leave; the ship had to be fumigated because cockroaches were in the barley Went to Norfolk Naval Supply Depot, to get essentials for the ship Back to a convoy down to the Panama Canal Three days west of the Canal when the War in Europe ended (00:28:25) Went to a Naval supply depot in Pearl Harbor, there for a week Back to the Pacific Northwest, Puget Sound area Started to load lumber around that area, several small towns Down to the Columbia River area, then in the Washington area 4th of July ‟45, headed west, again by themselves  Didn‟t have much to do as Signalmen Beautiful voyage, very peaceful, would sleep on deck on a hammock Didn‟t do much, had a record player, would read; nothing organized �All the stewards‟ crew was from mainland China (00:30:30)  Steward‟s Mate would deliver them food, would order food from them, as well; ate very well  Had a totally different culture from the other crew, but got along very well  Rest of the crew were generally Americans Took the lumber to Manila (Philippines) (00:31:45)  Arrived 1st August, went ashore  Anchored out in Manila Bay  Knew a high school buddy who was in the Army there; stayed with his bunch for a few days  Manila was badly damaged, Japanese snipers still there When the war ended, was a lot of commotion; bells, guns, etc. Unloading lumber (same night as the end of the war with Japan) and a ship across the pier was unloading beer (00:33:33) Had quite a party with them Didn‟t see much of the civilian population there, except when he was with his Army buddy A couple weeks afterwards, loaded Army equipment (trucks, tanks) and took it down to Panay Island in a city of Iloilo Then loaded 1500 troops with no provisions for passengers; soldiers had their c-rations and Lister bags  Took them Tacloban, Leyte; saw some of the biggest poker games with that bunch Took on some saltwater-ballast, then headed to San Francisco (00:36:30)  Tied up to the pier for 5 days, stayed on the ship Took the ship out to Anchorage, Sheridan wound up being the helmsmen on that voyage because the crew were on leave �Went home on 30-day leave  Had a good time, spent time with friends and family; very relaxed Discharged (00:38:15) Reported to Detroit then to a train in Chicago, then the Civilian Pullman Deluxe Train back to Seattle Bremerton Naval Operations in Puget Sound There for two a three weeks, put on the MA Force (police force in the Navy) Many men assigned to a Battleship Maryland, which was being mothballed (00:38:50)  Rated people usually don‟t do the work, but there were so many of them that they had to  There for a couple of months March (‟46), sent to Great Lakes to be discharged Civilian Life (00:39:40) Went to work for a cousin who was a plastering contractor after being discharged (‟46) Bought a ‟26 Model-T Sedan Saw a friend from the Navy (met in Honolulu), went to a high school baseball game Met his wife at that game, been married to her for 61 year Worked as a laborer in a Reynolds‟s Metals Company, Aluminum Extrusion Plant Crane-follower for a while, then Crane Operator Then went to another company in Coopersville (Air Control) after a strike in the previous closed it down Worked maintenance labor for the summer, then back to Coopersville Korean War broke out and Reynolds‟s reopened, worked as a Crane operator, 15 years Worked his way up to Production Scheduling, then Accounting 1963, offered to go to White Bear Lake, Minnesota as Management Opened the first production company for aluminum beverage cans �There for a year, then decided to go back home Big Dutchman, Purchasing Department Involved in the local schools; schools were trying to bring together a high school district Eventually it was passed, got bonds to build a school; Sheridan was put on the board Third year on the board, no administrative staff, asked Sheridan to come in for ½ days Began full days and became Business Manager and Treasurer for 20 years (public schools) Retired in 1991 Afterthoughts (00:46:15) Service made him more worldly and aware; at ease with people, broad education No individual incidents that stand out in his mind; very peaceful in the Pacific Saw many interesting things (Suez Canal, etc.); poverty in Middle East was more prominent � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SheridanD Title A name given to the resource Sheridan, Donald (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheridan, Donald Description An account of the resource Don Sheridan enlisted into the Navy in 1943 after graduating from Coopersville High School. He eventually trained in becoming a signalman and served as part of the Naval Guard on a Merchant Marine cargo ship. His first voyage went to the Persian Gulf via the Mediterranean and the Suez Canal. His ship then went to the Pacific, taking a load of lumber to the Philippines and bringing soldiers home at the end of the war. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-07 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5eb9a8f43d0c1382a8ef01aa4b029187.mp4 3ee1aa05cc6b0b71512d89b8e91cc71d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b9bf97a8f22d4b8f0d63571fe0fdbcd.pdf 829e87db835168f2f7a3c6797ea056ee PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee: Richard Shaull Length of Interview: 00:53:12 Background               He was born May 16th, 1921 in Lansing, Michigan. His father was a cabinet maker. He owned his own store and during the 20’s and 30’s, his cabinets would fill 2/3 of the stores in Lansing. With some difficulty, they did make it through the depression, but lost their home in the process. He would live with his grandparents until they were able to get on their feet again. Richard was born a twin but his twin died as an infant. He did have a sister too, but she died several years ago. He would graduate from Central High School in Lansing in 1939. After he graduated, he would attend Lansing Community College, which is now Davenport. He would go for business administration. It would be while he was in college when the war started and he would enlist into the Army Air Force. He was always interested in what was happening in the world and knew about was what going on in the war before Pearl Harbor. He knew that he would be a part of it and was surprised that it took as long as it did. He had heard about Pearl Harbor when he was out visiting a friend. He knew then that that was it. His dad was in the Air Corps during WWI and he knew right away that he wanted to serve in the air force. While he wanted to be a fighter pilot, his dad served as a ground crew. He had experience in an airplane before he joined. He took a ride in an open cockpit in Lansing, where they were giving rides. He went to Kalamazoo to enlist on October 31, 1942. Once he was enlisted, he had to take a physical and mental exam. The mental exam he would pass with flying colors. His physical did not go so well. He had glasses and an overbite. The doctors told him that he would never be a pilot, but suggested artillery spotting. Training (6:00)   He would take training for this at Hoosier Field, Indiana, near Indianapolis. There he would learn how to fly a Piper Cub. In that training, he had to do ground flying. He had to fly over haystacks, barns and had to stay as close to the ground as possible. During combat, the lower to the ground you were, the safer you would be, as you were not such an easy target. �      He learned out to fly it over the 500 racetrack [Indianapolis Brickyard]. He would also learn how to fly a plane in a winter storm. He would get conventional basic training after he completed the Piper Cub training. He would go to the Jefferson Barracks in St. Louis, Missouri to get his basic training. They would give you exam there to see what you would do best. He ended up going to radio mechanic school in Madison, Wisconsin. He stopped the training in the Piper Cub training because there were too many people. From there he would be transferred back into the regular air force and then to radio school. While at radio school, he would learn the radio system on a B-17. He graduated from that and sent to Europe. Europe (8:45)  He was put on the Louis Pasteur in the NY/NJ area.  It was a French ship and was very interesting. There was a great big opening that they would use to get to their quarters and the next three days were horrible.  Many of them had never been on a big boat and the ocean. Seasickness really took over and it was a mess. The weather wasn’t bad, but the swells were enough for most of them.  The ship itself was converted in order to carry its passengers. The officers and higher up would stay in state rooms, while anyone lower would stay in big rooms below.  In one room, there were probably 100 men. There was about 3000 on the boat total.  They would travel by themselves on the ocean. It was a late model French ship that was quite speedy.  He arrived in England about 8 days later.  They would go up to the northern part of Ireland and came down by the Isle of Man and landed at Liverpool.  Along the way there were not U-boat scares.  He landed in England around March 1944.  When he got there he was assigned to a general air force unit, in a small town near Bristol in Wales.  From there they would give different assignments throughout the Air Force.  It would be then that he would find out that they had too many radio mechanics, but they did need a typist in a photo intelligence detachment. He certainly did not mind as he was a decent typist. So he was assigned to the 20th Air Force Intelligence Detachment.  He would go by Stonehenge on his way to London for his new position. (12:30)  He was quartered just outside of London. His office was at Cromwell’s headquartering in London.  There he was a chief clerk of the outfit and he had to do the morning reports and all that office work. He would also learn what they were going to do once people got over to Europe.  He would be taking bombing pictures and see if they had to bomb again.  He would also help in creating a mosaic of the coast from Norway down to France. This would help them in determining where they were going to send troops into Europe. It would also be used in helping identify bombing targets along the coast as well. �            He was working in his office and all of a sudden the intercom when off and told them all to go outside and look at the sky. He did and they sky was covered with planes, gliders and dirigibles. You couldn’t see the sky at all. It was awe inspiring. (14:25) He did not get a lot of information in the office that he worked in. He would also move around a lot too. He spent 7 months in England, 7 months in France, 7 months in Belgium and 3 months in Germany. While he was in England, he would meet a nice lady at the USO office. She would often invite him to her house to visit with her husband and son. This is what he would do most of his spare time while he was in England. During that time, there would be many buzz bombs that would fly over England. If you heard a buzz bomb motor stop, you had to take cover. One night, he was on the way to the house for dinner with the family, when he heard a motor stop. He did not know what to do and took cover behind a bus. He remembers there was broken glass all around him and he was knocked down. He suffered no injury. He would continue on to the home, where he would find the wife under a large, heavy table, and the rest of the family in a bomb shelter. She had claustrophobia. He has a lot of nice memories of the time he spent with that family. The family would migrate to California after the war and he would see them a couple times after that. One evening on leave, he and a couple of soldiers got a hotel for the night. Suddenly the sirens started going off and they did not know what to do, so they stayed in bed while bombs went off all around them. Fortunately, none hit their hotel. All the big cities in England would have dirigibles [barrage balloons] outside the city that would have mesh lining hanging down in order to catch and stop the buzz bombs from entering the city. Some of them were higher than the dirigibles, so some got through, but it did stop most of them. At the time he was doing his normal office work. It would be later that he would get his training for bomb assessment. He would then head to France 7 months after he was in England. France (19:15)  He flew on a B-24. That was the first time he had a gun issued to him and he didn’t know how to use it.  He was flown to Chartres, France.  He would sit at the cathedral nearby and watch the people. It was there that he decided that he wanted to learn French. By the time he got back to the US, he could speak it fairly fluently.  He was based at Chartres for only a short time. He would then be transferred to Reims. Just as soon as they would capture the places, they would be about 35 miles behind the lines.  His father had been stationed in Reims while serving in WWI. At a souvenir shop there he would purchase a drawing of a cathedral, because his dad bought one during WWI. He grew up looking at that picture and wanted one of his own.  He would begin doing his bombing assessment work here. �                      A P-38 Lightning that had camera in the nose of it would go with the bombers on their mission. Sometimes during, and always after, they would take pictures of the bombing that had taken place. It would be determined by the pictures if they needed to go back and bomb again. His job would be to type of the negative that went with the photos. He would not do any of the interpreting. Instead, he would take the data and type it up. There were about 8 enlisted men and about 10 officers working at the office. Major Porter was the CO of the office. His rank at the time was Staff Sergeant. All the people working there had special skills and were of a higher rank. The buildings he would stay in had decent living conditions and he would have time, especially in Reims to wander the town. He would become acquainted with a French man who was in the French Air Force at the USO. The man would invite him to meet his family as well. He would go there a lot for dinners during his stay in France. He would be able to practice his French there. Reims was in fairly good condition, not a lot of damage done, unlike England. While he was there, he would write home every other day or so. And once in a while his mother would send him a can of spice cake. (24:30) Before he went over, he set up a code so they would know where he was. He would use family names to let him know where they were. For example, Aunt Daisy was England. He was never caught. He would only have names for bigger towns. He did get to go to Paris. While he was in Reims, he took an R&R down to Nice and he would go through Paris by truck. On his way back, he would stop in Paris. He loved it so much he would ask his CO if he could spend a week there. He was allowed. They had hotels where he could stay. He would go through the Red Cross, who would assign him to a hotel. While he was there he would see the Eiffel Tower, Napoleon’s grave, and all the sights. He would also go to a brothel while he was there too. It was something very new for him. He was pretty good at staying out of trouble. He did not drink, smoke or sleep with the prostitutes. There were no discipline issues in the office that he worked in. His CO had actually attended college in Paris. That was one reason he was allowed to stay for a week in Paris. He enjoyed his work very much and does not regret not going into a combat assignment. After places were captured he would be part of a group that would go and inspect the area. One of them was the Maginot Line. After that area had been bombed, he took his CO out to the nearest pill box. While they went out there, there were signs saying “MINES” “DANGER” and there were dead cattle all over. He CO got a long branch and waved it along the front of the jeep while they headed toward the pill box. Richard did not want to go in when he had gotten there. His CO would go in and inspect the place until he was satisfied that the reports he got were correct. �   The officers would also inspect things like railroad facilities and bridges. He would go out on some of these missions, but not all of them. While he spent time in France, he would constantly be moving while the line moved. He would spend the longest in Namur, Belgium. Belgium (30:50)      There he was stationed in a vacated German office building. There, one day he was out on a path, taking in the sites he came across a young Belgium man near the railroad tracks. He did not know if the man spoke English, so he asked him if French where a particular tourist site was. The man, who eventually pointed him in the right direction, was so happy that Richard spoke French that he invited him back to his house to meet his mother and sister. He would go there all his spare time. He would have a room of his own all weekend and the mother would press his uniform and polish his shoes for him every night. They treated him like a king. He would also meet the son of Belgium’s peacetime Minister of War. He was killed during a battle while he was serving in his tank. Battle of the Bulge and Germany (33:15)            He remembers he was stationed in Reims during the Battle of the Bulge. He remembers they were dropping barrels of gasoline that exploded on impact, so they had to hide in the shelters. It was very scary. He spent Christmas in Reims, during the Battle of the Bulge. They tried to have a nice dinner, but had no spices. But they did have the turkey, mashed potatoes and gravy. The unit he was with always flew combat. They would mainly focus on bombing factories and bridges and things. When he went into Germany, he would stay in huts with a mesh fence all around the camp. The local population would line up with empty pans to take any leftover food that the soldiers had. He thinks that the mess hall was put near the fence on purpose for this reason. He can’t remember where he was stationed in Germany, but the war was still going on when he got there. It was highly advised not to leave camp and wander around. He did have orders not to fraternize with the locals. He remembers now he was mistaken. He was still in Belgium when the Germans officially surrendered. So all of the warnings that he got were after the German surrender. While he was still in Belgium, he had accumulated enough points to go home. He was transferred to an Air Force weapons unit to go home. He was sent to Germany to meet up with them. From there he traveled from Germany by cattle car. It was a terrible smell. They were in the cart three days before arriving in Cherbourg, France. It was there he was shipped out. �Back to the US (39:05)        He was shipped out in the Fall. He arrived home just after Thanksgiving. They put them on an old Greek ship manned by French sailors. It was so old, that three days into the trip, it had sprung a leak. He watched them fix the leak by building a form around the leak and pouring instant concrete into it. About three more days, in about mid-Atlantic and the motors went out. They turned edgewise, toward the waves, which was dangerous. They went up to the deck to get onto the life rafts, but they were all washed off. They finally got a motor started and they took them home to NYC. When they passed the Statue of Liberty, there was not a dry eye on the whole boat. None of them thought they were going to get there. The next voyage the ship went through, it was scrapped. He was sent to Camp Atterbury where he would spend almost 20 hours a day processing discharge papers. He ended up staying longer than a lot of them. After getting all the work done, he was sent home by train. Post Duty (42:40)              On the way back to Lansing, he ended up wandering up to the first class observational car and meeting a nice businessman, who then asked him to stay. He was there for the rest of the trip, and it was very nice. Once he got home, his parents met him at the station and took him home. He started working with his father and was in the line of work for about two years. He went skiing in Cadillac and met up with a set of twins. After a bit of talking, they invited him to church, and he went the following Sunday. He met their sister there. He went up there every weekend for a month and it got to be too much. So he asked her to marry him. Four months later they were married in Cadillac. He’s been married now for 63 years. After they got married, she worked for the civil state department and discovered an opening for a clerk in the agriculture department. So he applied and got the job. He worked there for a while and then applied for a position of office manager at the labor mediation board. He got that as well. Then came an offer as an office manager in the highway department, which he took. In the highway department, he handled all the paperwork and the interviews. He believes that the job he had in the photo intelligence department in the army helped him learn how to be organized and helped him to learn how to work with people. Along with the interview, he is giving some documents as well. (47:15) He tells a story of his father while in WWI. Looking back, he feels that the service gave him a lot more confidence. He learned that he liked being around people. And he also found out that he liked to do office work. He remembers when he was taking training in St. Louis, there was a parade for President Roosevelt. It was hot, and they were wearing wool. A few of them fainted, including himself, right in front of the president. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShaullR Title A name given to the resource Shaull, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shaull, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Shaull was born in Lansing, Michigan, in 1921, and enlisted in the army in 1942. He wanted to become a pilot, but his vision was not good enough for the Army Air Corps, and he enrolled in a course for artillery observation pilots, but was then sent to radio repair school instead. When he arrived in England in the spring of 1944, he was again reassigned, this time to an office in London where he worked with aerial reconnaisance photographs. After the Normandy campaign, his unit moved first to Chartres, then to Reims, France, and then to Namur, Belgium, and finally into Germany after the war ended. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8c82fbb79cf1ae996a22e38b218f7ee3.mp4 27d59c9aa8551e9ce631d8f552f6196b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fd994e0e5e1f73ed51f0e4fc1e35a40.pdf 761cce097de9fd063095a5cc2b833f2d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Charles Shapin (01:11:27) Childhood (00:10:18) born in Brooklyn, raised in the Syosset Bay neighborhood near the ocean (00:26:10) his father was in the wholesale fish business, his mother was a housewife; both parents were born in the United States Pre-war Atmosphere (00:51:15) on Sunday morning, December 7, 1941, he came home from a handball game to listen to the Brooklyn Dodgers play the Giants; they were listening to the game when the news broke: Japanese were bombing Pearl Harbor (00:56:20) the atmosphere changed � British battleship Prince of Wales and British battlecruiser Repulse sunk � the Japanese invaded the Philippines � his darkest moment was when Singapore fell; Singapore had been the “fortress of fortresses” � his parents sent him out that night to a delicatessen and he realized the world had changed � the atmosphere, the idea of the war, it was “very bad” (02:20:29) when he was 13 or 14 years old, Chamberlain made "peace" with Hitler: “we knew it was temporary, you can’t make peace with a dictator” (02:56:14) he knew about Nazis, the concentration camps—but not death camps—the persecution of Jews, Gypsies (03:17:27) they had some German refugees—Jewish kids—coming into his school and neighborhood (03:54:23) Roosevelt speech: “your sons will not be sent overseas to fight in a foreign war while we are being shelled” � Lend Lease was going on, Selective Service and National Guard had been established � Gerald Pershing: 50 destroyers for naval bases � “convoying ships is an act of war” The United States and Mr. Shapin enter World War Two. (05:10:00) Germany declared war on US 2 days after Pearl Harbor � "one of Hitler's biggest mistakes" � he passed by a newsstand on his way home and saw the news; “it was a shock” (06:15:01) graduated from high school at age of 17 and half, started college a couple months later; finished a year of college (07:01:10) he went to the draft board: a bunch of people there wanted to get deferment, while he wanted to sign a waiver to get in, and he did (07:47:05) a fellow he had been in many classes with at high school went into the �army with him on the same day and they came out on the same � he still communicates with Ken, Kenny (as of the time of filming) Mr. Shapin’s Military training and experience prior to entering the European war theater. (08:33:15) spent 4-5 days at Camp Upton on Long Island before receiving his shipping orders (08:56:24) put on the Long Island Railroad, a local commuter train to Penn Station; at Penn Station a troop train was waiting; the train headed south through Baltimore, Washington DC, Richmond, and the next afternoon it ended up in field; the train went off on a siding at Fort Bragg, NC (10:21:14) he had passed the physical at Camp Upton: he had a perforated ear drum, and the doctor called over a second doctor who blew on it—it moved, and therefore, it was OK (10:57:27) he was designated “special assignment” and put into field artillery using the 240mm howitzer—the biggest gun in the field artillery (12:20:03) there was drilling and field exercises, he was in the survey section; one of the exercises was “taping”: � a 100-foot steel tape was handled by a team of two, with the second guy winding up the guy in front: metal pins, each with a hole or loop in it, were dropped and the tape was passed through the loops; the second guy was supposed to count the pins � the purpose of surveying was to locate on a map targets, observation points, and gun positions—all part of gunfire control � the army had grid maps of all of Europe: “grid north,” not the magnetic north was used (16:08:10) his first unit mainly from New York, average people, some “characters” � in basic training they learned military courtesy and also about gas masks (17:53:04 ) he was at Fort Bragg until Nov 1943; he had applied with his buddy for “ASTP”, the Army Specialized Training Program and they went to John B. Stetson University in Florida; next, they were sent to Rollins College for basic engineering training, and then to CCNY in New York � the program folded in five weeks, there were so many casualties in Africa � he was put into the infantry (19:55:06) sent to Fort Polk in Louisiana, where they faced wild pigs and ticks � they would take their clothes off and remove each others ticks using matches: they held the matches to the ticks derrieres � he has tick scars (21:31:24) opposing them was the 92nd infantry division, an all Black division that shot blanks at them when they would cross the Sabine River in assault boats (21:50:16) he got himself back into artillery; they returned to Camp Refuge in Kentucky, and he was interviewed by the warrant officer, Mr. Tucker; volunteered for overseas service and the orders came through � given furlough that night, he hadn't qualified with the .45 pistol � he had to fire one before he could go on furlough—his ears rung until he got home to New York �� you have to be in the outfit six weeks before they can send you overseas, so he had to return to camp from New York, after furlough The War in Europe (24:07:25) in November of 1944, he went overseas with the 75th infantry division � his first “outfit” was the 551st Field Artillery Battalion � he had transferred to artillery, but he had ten months infantry experience as a rifleman, and he was put back into the survey section (25:23:15) crossing the Atlantic Ocean in November of 1944 � it was as “smooth as glass” � they went over unescorted on the HMS Aquitania � he remarked on how the Englishmen "destroy any food," and “guys were complaining” • the general of the division, “followed by an army of flunkies,” walked down the second row and stopped, asked a soldier how the food was and was he getting enough to eat; to the dismay of the others, that soldier answered "Oh yes sir." (28:40:00) they were worried about U-Boats but made it to Scotland safely, to Greenock in the north near Glasgow; he was put on an LST ship and sent to Cardiff, in Wales, for a couple of weeks; Cardiff had “the worst climate in the world”—it rained every day (29:40:10) his impressions of Britain: they got passes and took taxis around London; once they even saw Churchill getting into a car as they passed a gate on Downing Street (30:36:23) one day at Paddington Station � he met a “very pretty girl” he described as an English WAC, the equivalent to an American WAC � MPs asked where his pass was, and he was taken to MP headquarters; he apparently didn't have the right kind of pass, it wasn’t supposed to mention his outfit � the girl’s name was Molly Fletcher—he remembers her name “to this day” (31:27:28) in early December of ’44, he rode the train to Southampton, where he was put on an LST ship again, and he met a sailor who was a neighbor of his; they were on the LST for three days, riding around in the [English] Channel (33:26:14) riding through France, near the Belgian border � people were waving, cheering, giving them flowers as they rode through France � “the [Battle of the] Bulge” broke out on the 15th,” but they didn’t know that � he manned a machine gun in the truck—he had been sent to machine gun school at Fort Fisher, in NC � the weather was sunny for a couple of days and then cold; the clouds broke, B17s came over and he saw them being shot down � finally they were told about “the Bulge,” and they would be opposing the 1st SS Panzer division that had “massacred a bunch of [Allied] soldiers at Malmedy” (39:00:08) one of his favorites in Belgium was the “grease gun,” a submachine gun �(40:04:02) the artillery was used immediately, “you don’t keep artillery in reserve, you keep infantry in reserve” � they had to “register” the battery: they would fire, and if the shell landed where they hoped it would, “you’ve registered the battery” � they had what was called a “K,” a correction: if they thought they had to aim “here” but the shell wasn’t landing “here,” maybe off by five degrees, they were given a “K” � their captain “registered” the battalion, “I think it took him God knows how many rounds” (40:51:28) it got bitterly cold and the snow cracked under their feet; they slept in houses or barns; the battalion commander was “very solicitous” and always tried to get them houses; the gun crews had to sleep in tents near the guns (42:23:21) his duty was in the survey section and he went out with a survey party, after the guns were set up � the other guys were jealous because they would go out on the first day and take the best house; they would choose the kitchen among the rooms if they could, because they could cook � when the survey was done, they would hide, or they were put on guard duty until the guns were moved again; how often the guns were moved varied (45:55:01) Shapin read “later” that Patton wanted to attack the flanks of “the Bulge” but Eisenhower wanted “a head-on assault,” and there were a “lot of casualties” � the Germans fought them house to house back to the German border (46:39:20) he was then sent to Holland, a "quiet sector" then moved out to the Rhine under Montgomery’s control � there were 56 battalions of field artillery running through their fire direction � the next morning 600 guns opened fire; they did “such a good job” that two days later they ran short of shells Race Relations in the military and in civilian life. (48:46:09) the Dutch had very rarely seen black soldiers; Shapin described how, in one town, black soldiers driving trucks noticed that the native people were “very curious, and they gunned the engines to make them backfire; the people asked, regarding the black soldiers, “What are those?” and the Americans explained that they were black soldiers; then the Dutch asked what the black soldiers were “good for” (49:28:20) his parents had visited him in Fort Bragg, NC: his mother had relatives in the South and had been in the South, but his father was “amazed” by “colored” waiting rooms, fountains, etc. (49:58:24) on a public bus once, they were not on duty, and a black soldier got on and sat in the back; a bunch of soldiers, mostly from New York, asked why he had to sit in the back, he wore the same uniform as they did (50:26:28) at Camp Refuge, black soldiers were not allowed to guard the nurses quarters because the nurses were white; three white privates had to guard the nurses, and he was one of them �(52:04:00) it was culture shock for northern whites, and southern Blacks as well; most training camps were in the South Impressions of Germany and Germans (53:05:04)crossing into Germany in the spring of 1945: � it was richer, their houses were much nicer � bedsheets representing white flags of surrender were hung out � according to Shapin, referring to the Germans, “you never met one who was a Nazi”; they were all “nicht Nazis”; there was a “no fraternization” rule (53:56:00) he mentioned guarding some hostels, after the fighting ended, that were full of German wounded; he had very little contact with Germans after the war though they would ask questions sometimes (56:02:20) they [Germans] were digging in garbage cans, they were in “bad shape” The war ends. (56:24:02) “we didn't know about the concentration camps”: � while in France waiting to go to Japan, Eisenhower ordered everyone to watch films about the camps � German prisoners there who watched the films believed that it was “Allied propaganda” (57:01:00) he was in Germany until late spring, until VE day in May, and not long after that they were sent to France to a redeployment camp � he had a three-day pass to Paris—a couple of times he had passes to Paris (58:01:28) he was offered an all-expense-paid, seven-day trip to Switzerland, on furlough, and he was on a train to Switzerland when Japan surrendered on VJ day � the trip to Switzerland was very nice; he stayed in a nice hotel in Lucerne, where they were asked if they wanted to various other hotels, and next time they ended up in Hotel Stocken, a “very fancy” hotel in St. Gallen,; later, he went to a hotel on Lake Geneva A Choice between school and a resort. (01:00:55:02) in September of 1945 they had an offer, if they had been in college before, of choosing between two “colleges” the army ran, where they could earn credit while waiting to go home � he and his buddy, Kenny, both had this option, and they decided in favor of Shriffen in England, because “the French don’t like Americans”; he found out that the other school, Biarritz, in France, was a resort; they had passes to London on the weekends Returning to the US. (01:02:15:08) they were supposed to go home on the aircraft carrier Wasp � Wasp got damaged in a storm, and the Lake Champlain was sent to them � they “hit five storms in ten days”; this was in January of 1946; sailors were vomiting � they landed in Staten Island; his parents and Ken's parents had passes to �meet them at the ship (01:03:17:25) they had to go to Fort Dix “to get out”; the army lost their papers (Shapin’s and Ken’s) and they had to spend seven days in Fort Dix instead of two; (01:04:55:22) there were German prisoners in Fort Dix Reflections on Europe. (01:07:03:14) “soldiers like to loot,” looting was “a problem” (01:07:11:16) the Germans gave "mutter medals": Americans would try to bring these home if they could find them in the Germans’ houses; Shapin himself “looked and looked” for one of these (01:08:29:25) in England the prostitutes were everywhere; in Paris they [prostitutes] were everywhere Reflecting on the war. (01:10:03:06) it gave him a view: he is conservative, pro-military (01:10:13:08) he can understand opposition to war and the Iraq war, but regarding the attacks on recruiting stations during the Iraq War: “it’s treason” (01:11:27:15) his feeling is that is that there are people who hate this country [United States]; he loves it: "my fellow Jews aren't persecuted here" � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShapinC Title A name given to the resource Shapin, Charles (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shapin, Charles Description An account of the resource Charles Shapin served in the US Army during World War II. He trained both as an artillerist and an infantryman, and eventually shipped over to Europe with an artillery battalion attached to the 75th Division. He saw action in the Battle of the Bulge in Belgium, and later in the Netherlands and Germany. He provides detailed discussions of training and army life, as well as of his experiences in Europe, both in and out of combat. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/704b01ac9e06e892a86a21db6571cd74.mp4 c6cf01e536acce91745764f8d47e77f1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d4f6197f3f6650cd22f12dbd2bf322d.pdf 55ec58af287c4ad41f4c8ea22174738f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project James Shannon (02:04:00) (00:05) Background Information • James was born in Galveston, TX in 1928 • His family owned a dairy farm • He graduated high school and went to college for electrical engineering • At night he worked as a fireman • James enlisted in the Merchant Marines (06:09) Training • He went to boot camp in Catalina, CA • There were 30 people that he trained with • Boot camp lasted for 6 weeks and then he signed up for radio school • He was assigned to Hoffman Island, NY [Merchant Marine radio school] and it took him six days to get there • They got off the train and got on the subway at Grand Central Station and took a boat across to the island • They learned Morse code and had to get 16 wpm to pass the requirements to get their 2nd class radio telegraph license • Monday through Friday they had 4 hours of theory and 4 hours of code training • On the weekends they were able to go to New York City • James went to Times Square and did a bicycle tour of Manhattan • Radio school lasted 20 weeks including the Navy training part • He stayed at the island to get his first class license and he heard that Japan had surrendered • After receiving his license he was released �(36:39) T2 Tanker • James was assigned to a 500 foot T2 tanker with a crew of 42 men • He was the only radio officer • His first message diverted him to Pearl Harbor and then to San Pedro • James received his purser’s license and was sent back to San Francisco • He went to NY to try and find another assignment • While he was in NY he found out he was going to be drafted, so he appealed to a General • The General said he would get him out of it and on a boat (43:40) Cargo Ships • James went to Norfolk, VA and boarded a Liberty Ship to the NW coast of Africa • They unloaded half of their coal and went to the Cape Verde Islands of Portugal to unload the other half • Then they went to the bulge of Africa and picked up troops that cleaned the ship • Their next place to load was Cameroon and they picked up cocoa beans • After that they went to the French coast to load logs • They took the cargo back to the US • Every time they came back they had to sign another contract • The Merchant Marines had the highest death rate • In 1946 James went home for leave on a DC-3 (01:00:07) North Sea • On his next mission he went across the North Sea • He went to Denmark and France • The North Sea still had mines in it so they had to follow a specific route • After picking up wheat in Scotland they went down the St Lawrence River and unloaded it in Montreal �• When they went back out to sea it was winter and there were some storms • They went around Florida and into the gulf to load grain in Galveston, TX • The next stop was Trinidad and then Cape Town, South Africa • In Cape Town the captain went to town, had a stroke and died • A new captain came aboard and they went to Mombasa, Kenya • Then they crossed the Indian Ocean to go to Malaysia, but they didn’t want the grain • One of the oilers on the ship was an alcoholic and was going through withdrawal on the ship; he later died of alcoholism (01:21:25) Back to School • James got back to the US and went back to school to work on his engineering degree • On summer break he got on a ship loaded with grain that was headed for Europe • They went down the Weser River to Bremen to unload • Bremen had a lot of rubble and they were told not to buy from the German stores because they didn’t have much, but they could get stuff from the Army • In the fall of 1948 he went back to school and the next summer he got on another boat to Italy • For Christmas break of 1949 James went to Hamburg, Germany • He went to college for one more semester and got married in 1950 (01:48:06) Korean War • James went up to Seattle, WA and was escorted through processing because they were in need of radio operators • He was assigned to a C4 troop transport ship in San Francisco • They loaded 3,000 troops and set off for Yokohama, Japan • The boat broke down at sea and James had to help the chief electrician fix one of the evaporators • James visited Yokohama and Tokyo • They loaded people that were going back to the US and headed to Seattle �• His wife was going to school in Ann Arbor, MI and he went to visit her • James then finished school and got a job as a field development engineer in Key West, Florida for General Electric • He worked for 20 years in anti sub warfare for GE � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShannonJ Title A name given to the resource Shannon, James (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shannon, James Description An account of the resource James Shannon was born in Galveston, Texas in 1928. He enlisted in the Merchant Marines while in his first year of college. He had boot camp in Catalina, California and went to radio school on Hoffman Island in the New York Harbor. He completed his training just as the war ended, and served on merchant ships carrying relief supplies and other cargoes to Europe, Africa, and Asia, alternating voyages with terms in college. During the Korean War, he served on a troop transport ship. He eventually completed his degree in electrical engineering, stopped sailing and worked as an engineer designing anti-submarine warfare systems. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Merchant marine--United States World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75f28afb70a9f50ee0b4fc5e7bf87436.m4v 80ce4cb4cddda57ab8633fcda6c85c56 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a662b20ecfc4c8e12f156ff9b880ac7b.pdf 1a9d8ad4884230cf3d8e330ea64f10b7 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW EDWARD J. SERAFINO Born: January 16, 1948 Resides: Interviewed by: Terry Wainwright, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 24, 2014 Interviewer: Today is November 9. 2009 and we’re at Lake Michigan College in Benton Harbor, Michigan and we’re talking to Edward J. Serafino. We are interviewing for the Library of Congress Veterans History Project and my name is Terry Wainwright, lest we forget. Let’s just start at the beginning. What is the year of your birth? I was born on January 16th 1948. Interviewer: What branch of service were you in? I was in the Marines. Interviewer: What was the highest rank that you reached? I was an E4 when I got out. Interviewer: Could you tell us a little bit about your family and your original background before. Well, I was born and raised in a small town just west of Chicago and I had three younger sisters and my father worked in construction. My mother was just a house woman, a housewife. 1:10 Interviewer: What high school did you go to? I went to Morton West in Berwyn. Interviewer: When did you join the military? 1 �I joined on a hundred and twenty delayed program they had going, so I signed up in May and I went in right out of high school in August. Interviewer: What made you chose the Marines? I wanted to be a draft dodger, so I joined the Marines, and I knew I was going to Vietnam and I wanted the best training I could have, so I could come home. Interviewer: Could you pick what work you had in the military? I was an 18-33. It’s an amphibious assault vehicle called an Amtrac. It’s roughly thirty feet long, ten feet high, and ten feet wide. 2:05 And has a top speed of about ten miles an hour on hard packed, and about two miles an hour in the water, and it floats. Interviewer: Do you remember the first few days in the Marines, what was it like and what was it like during basic training? Well, I remember going down town and they put you in this big room and you stand around and wait. They took us on a bus and took us to O’Hare Airport and it was the first time I was ever on a plane. Our next stop was San Diego. We got off the plane and there were two drill instructors standing there, very nice gentlemen, and they talked real nice to us until we got in the bus. We got in the bus and the good times ended. 3:02 We got to MC area D, stood on the yellow footprints and went in there and got a haircut. All twenty of us walked through the barber shop in about ten minutes. Then they walked you into different rooms, they give you a yellow T-shirt, a pair of pants that almost fit, shoes and socks, skivvies, they marched all twenty of us into the shower. You came out of the shower and put all of your civilian clothes in a box, put this other stuff on, they gave you a blanket, sheets, pillowcase, and then you finally went to bed about four in the morning. You get up at six and you start over again. 2 �Interviewer: What was boot camp like? I was in pretty good shape when I went to boot camp, because I played sports in high school, and it was rough. 4:03 A lot of calisthenics, a lot of classrooms you go to, different things you learn, how to shoot a rifle, how to march, how to pay attention, how to just grow up. Interviewer: How long did that last? Nine weeks, and then right out of boot camp they give you what you’re going to do in the service and then yo go to ITR, which was two weeks and then yo went home on leave for twenty days. Then I went back to California, learned what an Amtrac was , how to drive it, graduated from that in thirty days, went to staging, and then I went to Vietnam. Interviewer: Do you remember anything about your trip to Vietnam? 5:00 They took us on school busses to El Toro Air Force Base. We got there in the afternoon and we all went to the theater and the movie we went to see was Born Free. The next morning we got up, they had a civilian airplane and took us to Okinawa. In Okinawa we got our shots, we gave blood, collected our uniforms there and then went to Da Nang and from Da Nang you just went to your unit you were with. Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam, what did you think? It was like a town that was a hundred years old. You didn’t see any street lights; there was no electricity where we were at, no ice, no anything. 6:10 Interviewer: You said you went from there, further north, and where did you go from there? 3 �From Da Nang I went to Dong Ha where I was stationed with a four deuce [4.2-inch] mortar battery for a while, because they needed more people there than they did in amtracs. From there I went to Camp Carroll. Interviewer: Stepping back a little bit, what was your job in Dong Ha? In Dong Ha it was in a four deuce mortar battery where I worked with a supply person for two weeks and then they had an outpost with about, I believe it was, ten 4.2 mortars, and I ended up out there with them. 7:00 We’d just shoot the mortar at different areas they’d have a shootout at night. I don’t remember where the base was at, the only way in was by Huey gunship, you’d go to an airport and they’d put you on a Huey gunship, they’d take you in and drop you off and you’d just do that, and then you’d have to stand security at night during the monsoons where it was so dark you couldn’t see anything. Interviewer: How many people would be at this outpost? There would be three of us in there, two would be awake and one would be sleeping. Interviewer: How long did you stay there? All night, and you’d do that, maybe, one or two days a week, and different people would just rotate with you. 8:01 If you were not doing that then you’d be on gun watch all night, or if a fire mission came in you’d have to drop the rounds into the tube and shoot them. Interviewer: You said you went to Camp Carroll, what did you do there? Well, they needed bodies up there, so they had us digging foxholes, bunkers and filling sandbags—moving sandbags and then we’d stand security at night in there, also. That was the first time we ever got hit—mortars and rockets, it’s like a beautiful 4th of July 4 �coming in. You see nothing but red and blue and silver sparkling things going over your head at night. Interviewer: Were there a lot of casualties? There were quite a few up there, but not a lot. 9:00 Interviewer: You still hadn’t had a chance to use your specialty? No, then from there we went to Quang Tri. They got over run, so they put more marines over there to stand security with the ARVNS, and then finally I got in the amtracs. They took us down by an LST to Cocoa Beach down by Phu Bai/Hue, and from there we went five miles over the river to a cemetery between three villages. We stayed there for about a month and a half as security. Interviewer: What was it like there? It was very boring, you would just stand security. We made a couple trips with the Amtracs and on one of these trips we were starting to get mortared. 10:03 With the AmTracs not moving too fast we had to call in for an air strike and they brought two jets in. They came in so fast and so low, dropping napalm that nobody knew where they were coming from, or how they got there. But when you go over the top of the Amtrac and you see those silver canisters come rolling out from the bottom, you know they’re close. Then they come back on the radios and tell you, “you better duck, here we come again”, and they did. Interviewer: I see where you actually lived in an active cemetery? Yes, one day—one Sunday every month, the Vietnamese, they were allowed to come on our base and bring food for the dead. 11:05 They would set up a little blanket on the grave and put vegetables and fruit on the grave, so the person that passed could eat. We 5 �always helped them out with that and made sure they ate good. From there, that platoon was the third platoon, they were going back to Okinawa and since I didn’t have enough time to go back to Okinawa with them, they transferred me to the fourth platoon. From the fourth platoon I went back to Cua Viet again and from there we went to Cam Lo, parked in another cemetery for a month, and from there we went to Con Thien. 12:00 We’re up in Con Thien to haul supplies, because it was so muddy up there you couldn’t get trucks to move, so we had to haul ammunition, water and food, and take the water tank down to the creek and fill that up and bring that back every day. One day up in Con Thien they had a bunch of infantrymen who got shot up real bad. They had ten, or fifteen wounded, ten, or fifteen, dead and they called in for helicopters to medevac them out, they tried and they couldn’t get them out because they were getting shot at, so we had to put three doctors, the corpsman and a preacher inside the amtrac and take them out, and pick-up the wounded and dead. That was the day we were driving through the high elephant grass. 13:03 I was driving and you sit up in the front corner, and I looked down and I ran over one of our bombs that didn’t go off and for some reason it did not blow again. A few minutes later there was a Vietcong lying in the grass with a gun, I saw him at the last minute and ran over him, I couldn’t avoid him. Interviewer: That was the only one in that area that you knew of? The only one that we knew of, yes, and then we went up there and found out where they were at and we started loading up the wounded and the dead. I was helping them carry the wounded on stretchers back to the amtrac. Went back to Con Thien, the helicopter’s there waiting for us and they took them from us. 14:00 Interviewer: Were you under fire at that time, or was the squad at that time? 6 �We were under a lot of fire at that time. Interviewer: During that whole period? Yes, and months later I was ready to come home and I was in Da Nang, and this fellow Marine comes up and grabs my hand and shakes my hand and he says, “Thank you”, and I said, “I don’t know you”, and he said, “Yes you do, I was one of the wounded you carried. I told myself I’d never forget your face”. Interviewer: You were telling me about a priest that was with you? The priest that was at Con Thien with us his name was Father Lyons and we had our amtracs parked right next to their makeshift hospital up there, and Father Lyons used to come into the amtrac with us and talk to us at night and enjoy having C rations with us. 15:07 I was explaining to them that I was born and raised in a town in Illinois called Lyons, and he looks at me and he says, “I used to be the preacher in the church in Riverside”, which was three or four miles from my house. Interviewer: How long were you in Con Thien? I believe I was there for about a month and a half. We were there for the Marine Corps birthday and they did us a favor, they brought in real food for us that day, but the weather was so bad they couldn’t get the helicopters in right away and all the food went bad and we all got sick up there. 16:03 They had to fly in medication for us, so we could still operate. We also spent Thanksgiving up there too. Interviewer: What was Thanksgiving like? They brought fresh food in for us again too, but I don’t think any of us ate it. Nothing against the cooks, but the C rations were much better. Interviewer: Was that what the food was normally? 7 �Yes, we carried a lot of C rations, and we did not have mess halls too often, because we were out in different locations with the amtracs. Interviewer: What did you think of the food in the C rations? You got your favorites and your ham and lima beans were one of the best. You took the ham out very gently and you threw it as far as you could. 17:02 You took the lima beans and you mixed them up with a little hot sauce, cheese and crackers, heated them up and they were good. The apricots, you never ate. Interviewer: So you get to be a real cook there. Yes you do, and you learn what’s good and what’s not. Interviewer: Did you have much contact with the local people? Most of the time no--because anybody that came near the fence knew the wires were free game to shoot, and when we were in the cemetery that was time when people could come through us and that was about it. Interviewer: So, were you pretty much stationary? Did you go out with your AmTrac on any missions? We would take the amtracs out every third day. 18:01 One day we would drive a patrol and the next day we would walk the patrol and the third day we would work on the AmTracs. If we drove, we’d take the other people from our platoon and we’d drop them off at one side of a village and we would drive to the other side of the village and sit there and wait for them to come to us. If anybody came out we’d have to check their ID cards to see if they were north or South Vietnamese. If they didn’t have an ID card, they were north and we took them back to the base. Interviewer: How many would go on a mission? 8 �There would be about twenty of us. Interviewer: What is the capacity of the amtrac? I believe it would hold thirty on the inside, but you never rode on the inside, you always rode on the top, because on the bottom of the AmTrac was all the fuel. 19:05 It held almost four hundred gallons of fuel, of gas, so if you hit a bomb it would just explode and burn everything up inside. Interviewer: How safe was it when you were in the amtrac then? One .762 a round would go through the side of it, so they weren’t that safe. Interviewer: Did one ever do that? We had quite a few that sunk and burned, and got blown up by different mines and bombs. If you were lucky and hit a small bomb, you’d just blow the track off of it. Interviewer: What weapons did the amtrac have? What did it have to fight back? We had one thirty caliber machine gun that would be mounted on the front and it had a three man crew. 20:04 You had a driver, a machine gunner and a crew chief. Interviewer: So where did you go after Con Thien? From Can Tien we went back to Cau Viet for the first of the year, January of 1968, and then we went aboard a ship. We were part of a BLT battalion landing troop. They loaded us up on the Cleveland, which was an LPD. We were supposed to take the amtracs and swim them out to the ship, but the waves were so high they had to bring mike boats in. They put the amtrac on the boat, took that out to the ship, unloaded it, and came back. 21:00 I was the crew chief of four zero, so that meant that I was the first on off the ship, the last one on. We finally got on the ship, got the amtrac tied down with the dogs and this officer comes up to me and said, “How did you like the Navy food?” I 9 �said, “I don’t know sir, we just got on here and we’re ready to go back to the amtrac and have some more C rations for supper”. He said, “No you’re not”, and he took us to the officers’ mess and fed us that night. That was the first time in months that we had milk that was cold and not powdered. From there we went to the Philippine Islands, we were supposed to be there for a month with the battalion landing troop and that ended up to be about four or five days. 22:00 Then they had us load back up and go back and made a landing in Cau Viet when the Tet started. We stayed on the beach for another couple weeks, the ship came in, and my Lieutenant knew I was getting short, so he had me get back on the ship to go back to Da Nang and back home. Interviewer: You said you were in country in early 1968. Were you there during Tet? Just the start of it Interviewer: What was that like? There were a lot more mortars and rockets that came into our base. Interviewer: It was more active? Yes, and we always listened to Hanoi Hannah and she said, “I will have New Year’s dinner in your mess hall”, but she didn’t. 23:00 Interviewer: What other kind of entertainment did you have? I saw one USO show. On the night before I was ready to leave for Da Nang--that was the USO show we saw. We were so far north that Bob Hope wouldn’t even send us a card. We didn’t have any up there, we didn’t have week-ends, and it was just another day to work. Interviewer: You mentioned about Bob Hope. 10 �When I got out of the service, I went back to the night club I use to work at in my small town, and I was in there working one night and Bob Hope and a couple of his friends walked in there. The waiter knew I was back from Vietnam and he told Bob Hope. 24:01 Bob Hope called me over by him to say “hello” and he asked me how great his shows were and I told him, “I don’t know, you wouldn’t even send us a card”. He shook my hand and laughed. Interviewer: Any other things that were memorable in the usual happenings that comes to mind? Well, the worst thing that happened to me when I left Vietnam, I was in one of their local watering holes in my home town and the police were looking for me that night. So, when I went back home I went to the police station and they informed me that my driver got killed right after I left Nam. 25:02 His parents wanted me to come up and see him, they were up in Palmyra, Wisconsin and his name was Chuck Duel. Interviewer: What was the best experience you had with regards to Vietnam and your military service? When we left the Philippine Islands with the amtracs--we had them—the ship was parked out, maybe, a quarter mile in the bay and we had to take our amtracs and swim them out to the ship. If anybody went to the Philippine Islands, especially Subic Bay, you know what’s there. There are a lot of taverns and a lot of loose women. 26:00 We wanted to see who could buy the most women’s skivvies to hang on the antennas when we went back to the ship. That was great—one of the Colonels or Generals from Subic Bay wanted to have his wife and daughters watch the amtracs go back to the ship. He did not 11 �care for our flags that were flying off the antennas and we ended up with no liberty for thirty days off the ship. Interviewer: While you were in Vietnam, how did you keep in touch with your family back home? We would just write letters, and what was nice about Vietnam, you never had stamps. 27:01 We use to just write across the top where a stamp would go, “free’. That was— and being away from our base most of the time, sometimes it would take a month before we got a letter, and then you’d get a whole stack of them. Interviewer: Were you awarded any medals, or citations? No, not that I can think of Interviewer: Tell me about your trip home from Vietnam, what was it like? What kind of experience did you have? We went back to Okinawa. We ended up landing there—well, first when we were aboard the ship, the Cleveland, they got my records and then they said, “Okay, we’re not going to Da Nang”, so I flew on a small helicopter from the Cleveland to Iwo Jima. 28:11 Before we got on you’re standing there with an envelope with you papers in it. They tell you that if you lose your papers you’re not going home. So, you’re sitting on this airplane, this helicopter, with no doors on it and they fly you from one ship to the other. Then we went on to Iwo Jima, from that they went on to Da Nang. They took all of our paperwork and put it on a small boat and said, “Okay, climb down the rope ladder to the other boat”, and they’re going up and down. When they say, “jump”, jump. 29:02 then we got into Da Nang and they said, “Your plane is not leaving for a day and a half”. That was the night we saw the USO show and they played the Marine Corps. Hymn and 12 �everybody stood up. We went back to the airport, sat on wooden benches and left Da Nang. We got to Okinawa and we were there for six hours, got our sea bags, got on a civilian plane and went back to El Toro. We landed in El Toro and we had a big party waiting for us, maybe five people. 30:03 We walked in this building, sat down, they signed our orders and they said, “If you go to the airport be careful and stay in groups”. We piled in a cab to the airport and we stayed in a group watching people and walking us to different gates. It was three o’clock in the morning and I was by myself, everybody else was gone. I went to the washroom and the next thing I know two guys are trying to push me through the wall, and all of a sudden they were gone. Two guys walked in and started thumping on those two. I said, “Can I stay and help?” They said, “No, get out”, so they threw me out of the washroom. 31:00 I see these guys a half hour later, they were both in the navy and that was their job, to stay at the airport and protect military people. Interviewer: Where did you go from there? From there I went back to Chicago. I stayed home for thirty days, for thirty five days, because I had to get a five day extension to go to my driver funeral. His parents wanted me to be a pallbearer, in uniform, which I did. I came home, drove out to California and I was stationed working in the brick, in Camp Pendleton. From there, I was discharged out of there, and I went back home. 32:00 Interviewer: After leaving the military did you keep in touch with the guys? No, I didn’t, except we had a reunion eleven years ago in a big town called New Town, North Dakota. They have one casino there, it’s Four Bears, and one of the marines that was in our platoon, he was from that tribe and he wanted to have a reunion at the casino. 13 �He said, he was talking to some of us and he said, “When we come home from the war, we meet at this arena”. There is a big hall there and they go there and everybody from the village and the tribe, they come back and they welcome you home. 33:06 He said, “Sometimes it takes two, or three, days before all the food and booze is gone”, so that was it, so he wanted to have the reunion there. So, we had the reunion there, we had a good time and that was the same week they had a Pow Wow, and there had to be over a thousand Indians there. He had it arranged so the thirty of us would carry the colors in for the opening ceremony. So, I tried to get at the end of the line, which I did, we carry the colors in and set them up and as we’re marching in the Indians are coming in behind us in full dress. 34:00 We made a big circle and they were still coming in, so we get out there and all set up and he gets up there and he does his prayers and everything, and he says, “When we were aboard ship we were talking, what happens when these people come home, the bartender might buy them a drink if they’re lucky”. He said, “You will be welcomed home today”, so he excused all the Indians and he said, “Okay, welcome them home”. They start off by having all the old women come up to you, they give you a hug and a kiss and a squeeze and say a couple nice word to you. Then you get the ones that come up and give you a hug and a kiss and a squeeze and say, ”I’m happy you made it home, I wish my son, or husband, would have made it him too”. 35:02 Now you have thirty marines up there with tears running down, and everybody came up and welcomed you home. Indians in full dress, the kids, everybody and it’s one thing I’ll never forget. Interviewer: Did you use the GI Bill at all? 14 �A few months after I got out of the service, I went to work for the telephone company and I used my GI Bill for on the job training, which wasn’t too much, but it helped out back then. Interviewer: So, what kind of an impact do you think being in the marines had on your life? 36:00 I believe they should activate the draft and have everybody join the service. We were sitting in a restaurant one night when--one Sunday morning, me and my wife, on two busy streets and the restaurant was packed. I saw this young girl sitting in a car, this guy jumped off the sidewalk, tried to get in her car and she was smart enough to lock her doors, and then he went and sat on her hood, so she couldn’t move. Nobody from the restaurant would do anything about it, so I just walked out and asked him very nicely to leave and he did. 37:00 I walked back in the restaurant and five or six people came up to me and asked me what I said to him. I said, “If you wanted to know, you would have walked out there too”. Being in the military you’ve got to look out for other people and that’s why I feel I did it. Interviewer: Anything else you would like to say? This is a lot harder than you think it is, being on this side of the chair and I thank you very much, you did a great job. 37:40 15 �16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SerafinoE Title A name given to the resource Serafino, Edward (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Serafino, Edward Description An account of the resource Edward Serafino was born in Illinois in 1948 and enlisted in the Marines Corps right after graduating from high school. They were sent to San Diego for basic training for 9 weeks, which was very rough on him even though he had played many sports in high school. Edward then trained with amphibious vehicles called Amtraks for another 30 days before being shipped to Vietnam. While in Vietnam Edward worked for a while on supplies, guard duty, and then spent most of his time traveling along water ways in the Amtraks. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wainright, Terry (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca02ef3519352edbad4b7448fb6cf672.mp4 ca133a071577631a5c455c213046bc28 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ac26916e5452a6df9974cdda710077f.pdf c7b68142c3bbe73a8de3036cc322b9dd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Peter Senft 1:13:00 Introduction (00:23)         Peter was born on August 27, 1948 in Dallas, Texas. He only lived there a year or two before his family relocated to northern New Jersey. After some additional cross-country travel, the family finally settled in Ridgewood, New Jersey. His father was a textbook publishing executive who traveled a lot for his job. Peter graduated from high school in June 1967. After high school, he attended Marsh Army College in Charleston, South Carolina for one year. He majored in drinking and chasing women. His father brought him home and made him go to Fairleigh Dickinson University in Wayne, New Jersey for another year. His father told him he had to get all A‟s for him to continue to pay for his school and Peter got a B+ average. He then went down to the Army recruiting station and eventually enlisted for a career in intelligence. Peter enlisted in the United States Army in March 1969. He had been paying attention to the conflict in Vietnam so he knew where he was going once he got in the service. (02:45) To get into the intelligence field, he had to take a test prior to going in to see if he qualified for the MOS, which he did. When he enlisted, he was given 90 days before he had to ship out. Military Training (03:09)         Peter went to basic training in June 1969 at Fort Dix, New Jersey. Everything in basic training was geared for Vietnam such as a 20 mile hike that they would do in Vietnam and to shoot their rifle because it would save their life in Vietnam. All of his instructors were Vietnam vets, and most of them were E-6 or above. Adjusting to military life was easy for Peter because his father was a very strict disciplinarian growing up who fought in World War II and emulated General George Patton. (04:56) About 60% of his training company were draftees that just wanted to stay alive in Vietnam so they learned as much as they could. During basic, they never left the base, but once towards the end of training they were able to have visitors on base. Basic training lasted for eight weeks. after basic training Peter was sent to Fort Holabird, Maryland to begin his intelligence training. (06:23) The atmosphere was much more relaxed at this school. It had very little weapons and survival training but more emphasis on his job which was a combat order battle intelligence analyst. �         His job was to analyze the enemy on the battlefield and present that information to the commanding officer. The instructors for this course came from all branches and a Marine captain stood out to Peter as a great guy. They lived in a barracks and went through the normal military protocol such as inspections, but it was much more relaxed. The work was largely classroom, and the course lasted 8-12 weeks. Peter was then volunteered to become a Shake & Bake NCO. Since Peter was second or third in his class, he was told that after the program he would come out as an E-5. They could also be sent all over the world wherever they were needed. All of them were sent to Vietnam. (08:47) The NCO training was very interesting to Peter, because they were able to do things that most soldiers don‟t normally get to do. They had to infiltrate an island that was set up like Vietnam and they had to swim to the island and work out things once there. This program was 16 weeks. His training was completed in May 1970. Along the way, he took some weekend trips home by train while he was still stationed in New Jersey. Peter‟s next stop was Vietnam. Vietnam (10:21)         Prior to being sent to Vietnam, Peter was given a 30 day leave to go home. After his leave, he reported to McChord Air Force Base and boarded a World Airways DC-10 and flew to Alaska, Japan and finally to Bien Hoa, Vietnam. His first impression of Vietnam was that it smelled horrible, it was hot and wet. They landed during the night because he remembers seeing flashes in the clouds and wondering if it was thunder or artillery. The men were put in a hooch and had to wait for two days before they were given their orders. Peter was assigned to S-2, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division. (S-2 is the intelligence office of the unit) He was then flown in to Phu Bai and then trucked up to Camp Evans. Once he arrived at Camp Evans, he went through SERTS (Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School) which helped the replacements learn the basics they needed to survive in country. This school lasted for five days. (12:40) During the school they learned how to rappel and they also dealt a little bit with dealing with the locals. The first task that Peter was asked to do was to complete a combat order battle intelligence report. This consisted of several reports that he had to combine into one. When Peter got to his unit, he was the only trained intelligence person in the brigade; he had two E-7‟s above him, a captain and then his CO, Major Andre. (14:12) Ripcord (14:24)  When he was looking over the data and maps, he realized that Firebase Ripcord, which was being held by the 101st Airborne, was surrounded by two fresh NVA divisions at 110 �             to 120% strength. In addition to the two divisions, they also had an artillery regiment and a reinforced sapper unit; which made the enemy numbers around 20,000 men, against a battalion that was at about 60-75% strength. That American unit was the 2/506th, 101st Airborne. In June, Peter started working a 12 hour shift at the brigade operation center manning the S-2 radio. He would call in the requested air support and anything else the men in the field needed. (16:30) The mood in the headquarters was very business like, even when things were bad in the field. On one occasion, Generals Westmoreland and Abrams came in to see how things were going and Peter had to give them an intelligence briefing. Peter also had to brief the Division commander. (18:55) The first week he was in country, he had to go up in a Nighthawk helicopter at night that flew around the wire. That night they saw something in the wire, and the door gunner opened fire with the mini-gun mounted on the chopper. It jammed, and the gunner yelled for Peter‟s M-16 rifle. The gunner lost his balance on a tight bank and he lost the M-16 out the open door and it landed outside the wire. The next day a patrol was sent out and retrieved it for him. (21:28) A week before Ripcord was evacuated, Alpha Company found a Hungarian folding stock AKM modified rifle. Major Andre came in and told Peter that he was going out to Ripcord to pick it up. He flew there on a supply chopper and when it landed at Ripcord he jumped off and ran into the operations center and then run back to the chopper. Only when he returned with the weapon, they helicopter was gone and he had to stay there for a day or two. (22:30) Being on Ripcord sometime around the 15th to the 18th of July, Peter was scared to death and he stayed in the operation center the whole time. It was cramped and hot, but he slept down there and worked the radio a bit; he was brought back the next day. They received 40-50 incoming rounds of mortar fire each day. The impression that he got from the men stationed on Ripcord was that they were going to get the job done. (24:08) There was a lot of drug use, but Peter did not do it because he always wanted to be able to react on a moments notice. He did drink a fair amount when he was not on duty, but it never interfered with his job. (26:25) Peter knows that the drugs and things were around, but he never recalls seeing it. Peter was in country for almost a year, around 40 days shy of the full year. While there he would do briefings, accumulate information from various sources and he worked with the RNS platoon (Reconnaissance Surveillance) going out into the field and showing them what he was looking for intelligence wise with things that they would encounter, such as bunker complexes. (30:43) When the order to evacuate Ripcord came through, Peter thought the political situation dictated the order. Peter‟s impression of General Berry [assistant commander of the division], was a by the book leader who was not well liked. (34:51) General Smith however, understood the different situations that the men would encounter in the field and he usually did the right thing instead of going by the book. (36:06) �               During interrogations of enemy POW‟s, Peter learned that they were a good source of credible information and no torture or mistreatment of any prisoners were done that he witnessed. At the Division level, if they could not get any answers from the prisoners they would go for a cup of coffee and come back fifteen minutes later. The prisoner would then tell them anything they wanted to know. This was probably because of the ARVN soldiers that did something to the prisoners while the Americans were away. Prisoners were usually just ordinary Viet Cong or NVA soldiers. Ripcord was evacuated on the 22-23 of July. After that, Peter worked at Firebase Nancy. It was on the road, nine clicks south of the DMZ. They shared the base with the ARVN‟s that did not go into Laos. (38:38) He was there in spring 1971. Another job that he did was to provide targets for Arc Lights B-52 strikes, flame drops and other aircraft strikes. On one of these flame drops, Peter knew that Americans were in the area and he radioed the unit and instructed them to pop a smoke. Peter saw the smoke and called out that he saw “Goofy Grape” (purple) but the soldier on the ground said that he had popped “Banana” (yellow) so they dropped their explosives on the goofy grape position and killed four or five enemy soldiers. (40:58) During Lam Son 719, they lost a lot of aircraft, most of which were attached through the ARVN units. Peter knew very little about the campaign because they were not that involved in it. While on Firebase Nancy, they brought in 8in SP (Self Propelled) Guns to support Lam Son. They shook the whole base and when they would fire, rats would fall dead from the rafters just from the concussion. (44:05) They would often eat what they called „mystery meat‟ which Peter believes to be water buffalo that were taken with mortars from the base. It was far better than c-rations. About once or twice a year he wakes up having screaming nightmares. He can usually suppress most bad memories and he likes to remember the good times. (47:31) When he had five days left in country, he was so short that he could sit on the edge of a dime and his feet wouldn‟t touch the ground. The only obligation that he had was to be at the 5 o‟clock briefing. He was ordered to go out and get some pigs that Colonel David Grange had shot outside of a firebase. Peter told him that he only had five days left and he didn‟t want to go back out in the field. Colonel Grange ordered him to go out and gave him his helmet, flak jacket and Remington 870 shotgun. He went out and found the three pigs and brought them back and had a great party afterwards. (50:15) On another occasion, they shot a Vietnamese elk and brought it back to base tied underneath the chopper. Peter took his R&R in the spring in Bangkok. After Ripcord, not much happened in country. Peter also came back to the states for a two week leave and he landed on December 26 back home. He had a lot of fun that two weeks and has many stories to tell. It was okay for him to go back to Vietnam afterwards because he looked at it as an incomplete job. (52:39) � He saw very little of the civilian population, but he was also ordered not to have contact with the locals out of Camp Evans. He did do some work with local officials, but not much. Back in the States (53:56)           Peter came home in mid May 1971. He was given a month leave and then returned to Fort Holabird and was assigned to United States Army Intelligence Command. He worked in the security clearance adjudication center. Peter also applied to become a special agent for the United States Army Intelligence, and was accepted. He was sent to Fort Huachuca Arizona for training and was trained as a special agent. He learned about counter-intelligence and how to collect intelligence, conducting interviews both friendly and hostile, how to investigate and pursue different crimes such as sedition or sabotage. After he completed the training, he was assigned to Garden City, Long Island to run background investigations. (55:37) Peter got to Garden City around June and was there for six months when they closed his office in October. He was reassigned to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, New York. When he reported in, he was told that they had too many agents and to go home and they would call him when he was needed. In December, he was called and asked if he would like to learn how to pick locks (DAME; Defense Against Methods of Entry) back at Fort Huachuca in January. He agreed and was sent. After that, he still did not have an assignment so he stayed for another course before being sent to Fort Riley, Kansas where he did some background investigations. Because of his DAME training, he was selected to conduct penetration inspections. For this, he would dress up and try to gain access to restricted areas to test their security. (57:56) One such inspection was at the G2 of the 1st Infantry Division. He was eventually found and detained. While being detained he had to lie face down on the ground spread eagle with a cocked .45 pistol at the back of his head for ten minutes before they verified who he was. For a month, Peter was sent Anacostia Naval Air Station to learn computer security. His instructor there was Grace Hopper, who coined the term „bug‟ for things that go wrong with computers. (59:44) Peter was then transferred to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri where he was involved in an organized crime investigation. The investigation led him to Springfield, Missouri about several organized crime groups fighting over the Fort Leonard Wood area. (1:03:30) After giving his report to the state attorney general‟s office, he kept a copy for himself and it was later discovered, which is a huge breach in military conduct. He was given an Article 15 and he decided to get out of the service. (1:05:10) When he got out of agent school, he extended for six months. He had given it thought about staying in for a career. Civilian Life (1:06:14)  When he got out of the army, Peter got into the publishing business. His father sold textbooks, but Peter got into the advertising and marketing side of the business. He retired about five years ago. �     Now he runs a small antique business that sets up a booth at a flea market twice a week. Looking back at his military service, it reinforced the discipline that he had when he was growing up. Having a plan and staying organized was also a benefit. His service also gave him the survivor mentality that he applied to the jobs that he had when he got out, he always had an out and nothing that his bosses could do to him was as bad as what he already went through in Vietnam. (1:09:44) He doesn‟t have many psychological problems, except for some survivor‟s guilt. In Vietnam, he lost two very good friends, but he hasn‟t been to the memorial wall. After he got home, he began living his life and buried everything about Vietnam. Now, he is very active with his chapter of Vietnam Veterans and is proud of the men he served with. (1:12:45) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SenftP1550V Title A name given to the resource Senft, Peter (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Senft, Peter Description An account of the resource Peter was born August 27, 1948 in Dallas, Texas. He graduated from high school in 1967 and after trying a couple of colleges he eventually went to the United States Army recruiting station and enlisted. He signed up for intelligence and after basic training he went to intelligence school where he learned how to become a combat order battle intelligence analyst. Peter was sent to Vietnam in 1970 and was assigned to S-2, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division. He spent time on Firebase Ripcord and made it home in May 1971. After returning from Vietnam, Peter became a special agent with the United States Army Intelligence before being discharged. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-10 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df50b30af2668fb9ce8bde368d2f15bf.mp4 0c639a377775bd52b68f75c64fe1d933 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f4031b0f84ca51404819b73ba46c03b7.pdf a00b8df3317aba2fc5e5b1c13056e5a2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 24:18 Ronald James Seigel United States Air Force; 1979 - ? Air Force Security Specialist (0:00) Personal information • Born in Greenville, MI in 1961 • Joined Air Force in 1979 at age of 18 • Basic training in San Antonio, TX then sent to Kelly Air Force Base, TX for service (1:05) Why joined the service • Seemed like a good idea • Nothing else going on in life • Job as Air Force Security (2:06) Typical day • Would work 3 second shifts and then 24 hours off; then would work 3 third shifts and have 3 days off • Kind of like a civilian job but under military control • Air Force Security o Physical security of different buildings, aircraft, and personnel o Keep people from unauthorized areas, etc. o Carried automatic weapons like M-16s and pistols o Authorized to shoot people if necessary (3:55) Training • Training in weapons • Advanced training which dealt with exotic weapons • Went to an air base defense school where learned how to handle the “big” weapons and tactics (4:27) Most memorable moments (story 1) • Nearby auxiliary base • Provided physical security for a squadron that listened to Latin American radio traffic for intelligence purposes o Cuba, other socialist countries • Down the road there was a nuclear weapon storage facility • He was on duty during the third shift. At 3 am, he and other Air Force Security policemen were in the guard house when heard a huge explosion. Everybody hit the floor; the sound came from by the nuclear facility o Explosion was loud enough to “stunt you out of 20 years growth!” • Turns out, somebody had set off a detonator by accident • Luckily, the detonators and warheads are stored in two separate units (6:06) Most memorable moment (story 2) �• • Doing a walk-around a B-52 airplane B-52 landed on base o Kelly Air Base was a linguistics base, meaning that repaired avionic equipment for all types of military planes o Many planes flew in from all over • This B-52 was uploaded with bombs and weapons and thus Air Force Security was required to walk around the plane continuously while it was on the base • In the middle of the night, Seigel was circling the plane and heard a ticking noise; looked up and saw 4 – 50 caliber machine guns following his movement • Someone had accidentally left the tracking system on in the plane and the guns were tracking Seigel's metal in his gun • The four 50 caliber machine guns were not loaded but still a bit unsettling • Radioed somebody; a cornel came and shut off tracking system • Seigel got to go inside and have a look around! (8:04) Iran hostage incident • Served during peacetime, however, in service when Iran hostage incident occurred • 1982 and the ex-Shah of Iran had cancer; ex-Shah was flown to the US for treatment; landed at Seigel’s base – Kelley Air Force Base, TX • Lots of demonstrations around the base • Everyone was on high alert • Seigel and other men in his unit were authorized to shoot to kill (9:16) If had to go to battle • Felt ready • Did so many exercises that wasn’t nervous • Air Force Security Specialists o They are like the ground troops of the Air Force o Defend the air bases o In Vietnam, never lost an air base because of security specialists ƒ “air police” (10:20) Life in the Air Force • Got a little homesick • Went on leave 2-3 times per year • Food was awesome • Barracks were a lot like college dorm rooms o 2 per room o Community bathroom or suite style living (11:52) Hardest part of training • Mental stress because never knew exactly what was going on until half way through • On the run, not a lot of sleep • Training was geared toward seeing how much pressure/ stress someone could take before breaking • Motivation = patriotism • Protect country �• No regrets about enlisting • Favorite part about experience was the people he met (14:15) Most influential person on the base • Staff Sergeant Hubner o Their squad commander • Good guy, a little nutty o Would go dumpster diving to collect cans for money from the recycling plant (15:30) Relaxation • Stereo wars • One guy would turn up stereo a little bit and then another person would turn up theirs a little bit until the barracks area sounded like a war zone because it was so loud (17:00) Rank • Air? – first class o In army comparison, he was like a corporal (17:29) Impact on life • Before the Air Force, felt like the king of the mountain • Service made him stop and think (18:01) Political stance • Middle of the Cold War when served • Early 1980s, things were tense • Needed to put up a tough front for the rest of the world (18:50) After the service • Got married • Career • Had kids (21:00) Final stories • While in the service, got to see extraordinary planes o F-15, Navy fighter plane o Went at super ballistic speed down runway o Once wheels left the group, pilot tilted it straight up like a rocket and it shot up out of sight • Used to stand on top of the buildings at night and watch planes take off (22:50) Steps to achieve rank • Rank is based on time in service • Promotion depended on 2 things o 1. proficiency (done through testing) o 2. positions available � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeigelR Title A name given to the resource Seigel, Ronald James (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seigel, Ronald James Description An account of the resource Ronald Seigel served in the United States Air Force as an Air Force Security Specialist at the Kelley Air Force Base in Texas starting in 1979. Although technically serving during peacetime, his personal account of his time in the service is very interesting. In this interview, Seigel shares stories from the third shift like hearing a nuclear detonator explode at nearby facility and getting accidentally tracked by a B-52's four 50 caliber machine guns. Also, while at Kelley Air Base, Seigel talks about how he witnessed the arrival of the ex-Shah of Iran who was flown to the base to begin cancer treatment at an area hospital. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carey, Lynda (Interviewer) Belaya, Elena (Interviewer) Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military United States. Air Force Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-05-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/21eee94040d833679d76e75554e9ff04.mp4 7adba0e067f043afb57b257e618e315a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5229bb5a1241ff46e0afd36a314a3a0b.pdf 72d7a95f8bea8e5af44519f561ca7bb0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Officer in U. S. Navy Cathy Seifert Length of interview - 02:40:51;02 (00:06) JS: We’re talking today with Cathy Seifert of Kapolei, Hawaii, and you served as an officer in the U.S. Navy for about twenty years here, so why don’t we begin, sort of at the beginning. Where were you born and when? CS: I was born in Os…well, you know, that’s not true. My mother would despair of this but I can never remember whether I was born in St. Mary’s or Blodgett. In Grand Rapids. JS: Grand Rapids, Michigan, then. CS: Grand Rapids. December, 1952. JS: Okay. And what did your family do? CS: My father was in the Army, actually. My mom was a typical ‘50s stay at home wife, at least for about the first seven or eight years of my life. JS: Now did your family move around a lot because your father was in the Army? CS: When I was small. That I can remember, when I was small, we lived in Indiana. Fort Benjamin Harris for a while. One of my brothers was born there. And we lived in Germany. The other brother, the one that’s next to me in age, was born in Germany. But after the Indiana tour, my father moved us to live with my grandparents. My mother’s parents in Alaska, over in Caledonia township. JS: So Alaska Michigan, as opposed to Alaska, Alaska? (01:25) CS: Yes. And then he went on to detached duty at his next duty station and my parents divorced after that. So. We stayed where Mom was from, basically. Moved within a twenty mile radius for quite a while. JS: All right. Now where did you go to high school? CS: I went to high school in Wayland. We moved from my grandparents locality in Caledonia Township to Allegan county when I was in between fourth and fifth grade. JS: Okay. And then, once you graduated from high school, what did you do next? �(01:59) CS: I went to Hope College. For four years, of course. And after I left college, I was kind of at a loose end. I wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to do. I’d taken a couple of examinations, Civil Service examination, Foreign Service examinations. Some of them don’t even exist anymore, in that form. And I was up, called up for interviews, a couple of times. The Social Security Administration skimmed the top one percent off the top of the [PACE] list back then. And, while I was waiting, I worked in a family owned business, over in Barry county, which most people around here probably know. Middlevilla. Worked for the family for a couple of years and lived with my grandparents. In Alaska, Michigan. And I got tired, of just waiting, for something to happen. And the next time I was called for an interview, from the PACE examination, for civil service, it was for the Army. At TARCOM, in Detroit. Warren, technically. And I was hired off that interview. That was in late 1976. And I went there, and I came home on weekends. To my grandparents. And still worked at the same place for extra money. Because basic civil service entry level didn’t really pay very much. (03:26) JS: So what kind of work were you doing at that point? CS: I was a supply cataloger. And the work was okay. It wasn’t particularly interesting, after about the first six months. (laughs) There was no mental challenge left. And TARCOM is an unusual installation in military terms, because at the time, in an installation of about 5000 people, because TARCOM was linked to RADCOM, which was the research division side. There were only about 80 military personnel. Everyone else was civil search. And it represented the amalgamations of functions across several different areas in the country. For instance, the supply cataloging function. Which was quite small. Represented the amalgamation of a group in Ohio. And a group in Detroit. And a group from somewhere else. There were people…there were older guys who commuted to Ohio from there. JS: So was the military basically contracting at this point? Sort of post-Vietnam, and… CS: Yes. And the interesting part of it was, it had been so long that they’d hired civil servants, at this particular installation, everybody had been there for a long time. That the contracts were Vietnam-era contracts. So they were written in such a way that if you were drafted it wasn’t breach of contract. But it didn’t say drafted. It said if you went into, if you were in military service, it did not constitute a breach of contract. And they had to hold your job open for you, for five years. Because of that. Well, I wasn’t particularly happy in Detroit. You know. I didn’t grow up in a major urban area. I grew up outside town. And Detroit was a fairly miserable place, unless you have a lot of money and can live in a good area. And a basic entry level civil servant can’t do that. So I started poking around and I found out this little loophole in the contract and I went down and I talked to a Navy recruiter. Never even considered the Army, because I had bad associations with my father’s military service. But I’d always felt safe in a military environment. Living on post, and that kind of thing. I was just old enough that I could remember that. (05:41) JS: Right. �CS: Last time. So I talked to the Navy recruiter. I considered the Air Force. And I was looking at recruiting materials. And at the time, it was in 1977, and my grandfather had died in January, as the result of an accident. Had the accident and went in the hospital. And then had the heart attack while he was in the hospital. And so my grandmother was by herself. She was not happy with the fact that I was considering military service. She did not say “oh, you shouldn’t do that.” She didn’t lecture. The only thing she said to me was “you know you’re not going to be entirely happy if you do this, because if you start moving around, you’re never going to be able to have anything that’s nice.” (laughs) Everything gets battered in moving. So I put it off for a while because I knew she didn’t like it. And then I looked at it again. Went and talked to a recruiter. Basically went through all of the interview process that was done at the recruiting station, for officer personnel. And, I was accepted…I found out that I was accepted about three weeks after my grandmother died. So I never had to tell her. (pause) I was sworn in in February of 1978 But I didn’t have a class date, for Officer school, which was in Newport, Rhode Island. For most people… (07:10) CS: In those days, officer school was split between Rode Island and Pensacola, Florida. The folks who went through Pensacola, were aviation candidates. And selected officer specialty groupings that did a lot of work directly with the aviation community. So, like the intelligence community. Those people went through aviation officer school. Which is what you saw in “Officer and Gentleman,” with the drill instructors that yelled at you. And the dunker tank and all of that. That’s aviation officer candidate school. Officer candidate school in Newport did not have Marine Corp drill instructors. I went in March. I reported on St. Patrick’s Day in March. And they deliberately do not tell you what is going to happen to you. Because they don’t want you to know that there’s actually a set time frame during which they’re going to treat you…I don’t want to say badly, but in a way that people would interpret as badly. (08:17) JS: Now when you’re going out there, are you starting, is there a whole group of you starting at the same time? CS: Yes. JS: All right. CS: Um. And at that time, there were several different ways to do that. In Newport, Rhode island, you had the entire range of military personnel. In those days, there were still four destroyers. In Newport. So you actually still had some active forces there. You also had the Naval War College, so you had very senior officer personnel who were going through classes there. You had Surface Office Warfare School, which was a post-commissioning school that in those days only young men went to, before they were allowed to go to sea. It basically taught them more than you learned in Officer candidate school about rules of the road. And what you were allowed to do. And more of the technical things you needed to know in order to be a ship driver. And then you also had Officer candidate. You also had “navsters,” which were a precommissioning level at the high school level. In the summer, they would be in there. For �several weeks. And you had what we would refer to as “oysters,” Officer Instruction School. Officer Instruction School was for people who already had medical qualifications. Who were direct commissions. They did not have to go through officer candidate school. But they did need instruction on how to wear their uniform and what the hair regulations were, and some sort of minor physical training. (laughs) Officer School, the normal officer candidate school, could run anywhere from 200 people to a thousand, at any one time. (10:05) JS: How many started with you? CS: We were quite small. And the reason was rather unique. The 200th candidate school class went through just before us, so they were still there. When we got there. And there was a class ahead of them that was being commissioned. The 200’s were commissioned in June, and they deliberately left a gap. So that there would be a four week period where there would only be one class on board. Not something they usually did. That was because, traditionally up until that point, the were two classes…two companies…the classes were divided into companies… JS: Right. CS: Quote, military companies. That were associated with each other all the time. Two of the companies were all female. The rest of the companies were all male. During the four week period when we were the only class on board, they integrated the companies. They scrambled all the people. And put…integrated them in teaching sections. They were divided in half so that these…four of the companies usually had the same classes together and the other four companies had classes together. So they took a women’s company in each group and they inserted men into it and took women out of it and out them in other companies, and taught us what the men had been taught up until that point. Which was how to carry weapons properly. And do the manual of arms. For parades and that kind of thing. (11:35) JS: Now what proportion of your class was female? CS: Approximately, one quarter. JS: Okay. Now, is it your understanding that prior to this integration that there were a lot of things that they taught the men that they did not teach the women, or… how did that work? CS: It may have been that women were doing things that women had never been expected to do. In a full duty status. That involved, mainly, handling of weapons. Okay. The real split was after you were commissioned. Because you did not go to warfare qualification schools. You only went to a more limited range of duty assignments. They were planning to change that. That was one of the reasons that they made the shift at that point. They were already planning to integrate the military academies at that point, but they had not done so. JS: Right. �CS: The class before us, the women had had to sign paperwork that indicated that they knew that it was possible in the future they could be assigned to sea duty. We did not. They limited the numbers for a while. Because they knew it would be difficult. They would have to do it in very small numbers. Initially. So they said, okay, it’s not going to be necessary for this class or the next class. We’ve already got enough women in the previous class that we’ll have enough people to experiment with, basically. (12:59) JS: Now how long was the Officer candidate school session? CS: When I went through, it was sixteen weeks. It changes over time. It’s ranged, to my knowledge, while I was in, any place between twelve and sixteen weeks. JS: Do you have a sense of how long they had been admitting women into Officer Training School by the time you got there? CS: Not a really good one. I had a supervisor later who had been in the first group of women that they had sent through to the more remote duty stations. And they did it the same way they did ship integration later. They sent pairs. And they sent the officers first. Before they started amalgamating enlisted women. Mostly because it’s easier to change officer quarter accommodations than it is to change enlisted accommodations. So that you have isolated bathrooms and that kind of thing. JS: Right. You’re not packing large numbers of officers together in a barracks or something like that. (13:59) CS: Right. Right. You might have two. You might have four, that have to share. Depending on where you are. And you can…whether or not, it’s an accurate summation, it was, it was believe there was less of a problem to have them using the same bathroom if they were officers. JS: Okay. CS: A bit silly. But I know it was pre-1972. I’m not sure how long before that it was. JS: Now, in general, when you’re in officer candidate school, how well did they seem to deal with having women candidates? Was it something they were used to? Did things flow pretty naturally? CS: They were fairly used to it. Some of the instructors were female. The company officers, the officer that was in charge, taking care of problems or informational needs, in each of the companies, for the female companies, the company officers were also female. As a matter of fact, they were combined forces because we had two British officers, who were company officers. One male and one female. And so we had comparative information on how other countries handled their service integration. �(15:15) JS: And what do you think morale was like, with the students? Were they looking forward to this? Were they excited about it, or… CS: Mostly. They found it interesting. You know, it was an all-volunteer force. It was enough post-Vietnam that nobody was worried about that kind of thing. Um, some people were more nervous than others. Some people were just miserable at school and wanted it to be over. I remember, during the timeframe when I went through, um, you basically had your classes. And your PT, and everything during the week. And you also stood duty. They taught you that as part of your schooling. So they had watches that you had to stand, so that you learned how you were supposed to handle those and what the penalties were if you didn’t do it properly. We… at that time, we were allowed Saturday and Sunday off. And you had permission to leave the base. And you did not have to wear a uniform, if you were an officer candidate. Unlike enlisted personnel, who when they finally received permission to leave the base while their still in basic schooling, still had to wear their uniforms. And, allowed without supervision. And that was okay. That gave you a break. You could go to MacDonald’s or something like that. And just not worry. If you wanted to, you could get a room in a local hotel and trash the place out instead of keeping it neat. The way you did. You were subject to inspection at any time. There were restrictions on it. But you were told what those were. One of the interesting things that I found about it, and when you first reported, they made sure that on every desk, and in every room, there was a notebook that had a piece of paper in it already, that said “priorities.” And, so that you understood that if you were ill, a medical priority came before anything you had to do as part of Officer Candidate School. They didn’t want people pretending to be tough. And making a situation worse. Sometimes it was a little hard to remember. (17:33) CS: So you had regular classes. Taught you things like celestial navigation that no one ever uses unless they go to sea. And none of the instruments work. Um, basic engineering concepts. Just things that had to do with Navy administration, how the paperwork works. How ranks and so forth are structured. You had regular PT. You had things that changed intermittently, you know… JS: PT is physical training? CS: (shakes head yes). Um hmm. Because you had to be able to pass what in those days were referred to as “JFKs.” Because he was the one that instituted the standard of fitness. If you remember. Everyone should be able to do certain things. So they had a similar set of things for the military and you had to be able to pass your “JFKs.” So it was a mile and… actually that was one of the differences between men and women at that timeframe. Is the number of things you had to do was different. For instance, you had x amount of time to run a particular distance. For men, it was a mile and a half. For women, it was 1.35, in the same amount of time. (18:42) JS: Okay. �CS: So I was always very proud of myself, I was never terribly physically fit, but I managed to do the men’s distance and a little more, in the time we were allotted. We also had mandatory swim training. This was the Navy. JS: Right. CS: So, that’s where I learned to swim. (laughs) And as part of your swim training, you also had particular sessions where you had, they had you jump off from a high level, in uniform. And basically, to be able to take your clothes off to inflate them so they were floatable, in case you didn’t have something like that. And you also had drown-proofing, which was how not to expend energy in the water. So it was to teach you to float upright, without treading water, any more than absolutely necessary. So that you didn’t expend energy doing that. It was interesting. (19:44) JS: So how well did you hold up under all of this kind of training and stuff? CS: I had no problems with classes. I was fairly miserable about some of the specific aspects. I remember actually giving up and calling my mother at one point, just to tell her I was miserable. (laughs) It’ll be over soon. It can’t be over soon enough. I had a compatible person that I shared the room with, fortunately. She and I were the odd balls in the bunch. At that time frame, commissioning programs tended to attract, at least for the women, people from very stable, traditional backgrounds. So two parent families, who’d never had any hardship. Um, that did not apply to me, coming from a divorced family. And after they divorced, my mother worked in a factory. It also didn’t apply to my roommate. She had been married, before she came into the program. And divorced. And she smoked, oh, absolutely unacceptable. Which did not bother me because my mother smoked. So…we were okay when we were together. (20:59) JS: Now were you allowed to smoke in the room? CS: Yes. You were. Back in those days. The buildings didn’t go non-smoking for a very long time. JS: Were the people in your class from all over the country? Did they tend to come from certain areas, or… CS: No. They were from all over the country. JS: And were a lot of them from the Navy families? CS: No, actually. Amazingly enough. Most of the ones from Navy families didn’t happen to go through in my group. Now most of the ones from Navy families, or other military families, did go through officer training candidate school, cause you couldn’t get into the academy. JS: Right. �(21:39) CS: They had all looked at that. Now one of, not my classmates, but the class before me, and she wound up being with me in my first duty station, was from a Navy family, a military family. Her father was a Marine corp colonel, her mother was an Army corp nurse, and her brother went to the Navy academy and was a Navy colonel. So she’s still in. She’s a captain. She’s had command twice. JS: All right. Now, um, what did you do then after you completed officer training school? CS: There’s a selection process that’s run by detailing personnel, assignments personnel, if you’re in the Army. That figure out what to do with groups of people, by their rank. They know what the requirements are, at the very basic level. They might take a minor look at your background, but the assumption is that you know whatever it is that you learned in officer candidate school. A lot of the men, out of my officer candidate school, were assigned to do surface warfare training, because they were going into the surface fleet. There were specialists that went through, I think there was one guy in my class, who had a different…officer designator tells you what subject community you’re in, and there are different communities. So there are warfare communities. There are surface warfare communities. The aviation warfare community. There are special subsets of that. So the special forces guys fall into that group. And then there’s restricted line, as opposed to unrestricted line. (23:14) CS: Restricted line people did things like civil affairs and oceanography and intelligence. A number of things. And then there were staff officers, who were supply corp officers. And people who went into the medical community. Specialists like that. Medical community was handled separately, because they weren’t commissioned as ensigns. They were commissioned at a higher pay grade. But everyone else went through this process where their detailing community, which was in Washington at the time. It’s in Tennessee now, would look at them and say, okay, I have requirements for, in these areas, with these kinds of backgrounds. And they would…you were allowed to fill out a sheet that said where you would be interested in going or what you would be interested in doing, and they would try to take that into account, but then the Navy came first. You got assigned wherever. So in my case, the assignments list was posted and I was going to be going to Naval Facility, Guam. (24:19) CS: Now I’m sitting there and scratching my head, and one of my classmates was a SEAL, prior enlisted who was being commissioned, and he knew what it involved. And he said well, they won’t be able to tell you anything about it because what they do is classified. But you’ll enjoy it. And he was right. I enjoyed the work very much. So much so that I basically stayed in that subset of the community for about twelve years before I did anything else. JS: Okay, now how did they get you up to Guam? CS: Oh, they issue you a plane ticket? JS: Did you fly a commercial plane or fly military aircraft? �CS: That particular case, it was a charter flight. I mean, they flew me from Baltimore. Well, from Newport to Baltimore to the west coast. And then picked up a charter flight that went out to Guam. From there. (25:12) JS: And how did Guam strike you when you got there? What did it look like to you? CS: (smiles) It was fascinating. You know, being from Michigan, here you are on a tropical island for the first time. It was actually kind of a good way to do a non-mainland first duty station. Because you didn’t have to adjust language. You didn’t have to adjust money. But it was still a long long ways from home. It was a totally different climate. I discovered that I adored tropical islands. (laughs) The only thing that truly truly annoyed me about it is that it had nothing but the most wretched bookstore you’ve ever seen in your life. (Laughter) And they didn’t even do much in the way of ordering for you. But back in those days, the Navy exchange system was still associated with a bookstore chain called Stars and Stripes, that didn’t belong to the exchange but that was what they did. They brought books into overseas installations. So, you had some choice there, even though you still couldn’t order. It was a very small installation that I was at. There were only 100 people where I was at. I did enjoy the work. I didn’t particularly respect my boss. Not my immediate boss, but the commanding officer. He was an early select for command. An aviator. Who really wasn’t interested in what we did for a living. He had flown in an electronic collections bird, and that was what he was really interested in. even the junior enlisted folks noticed. I remember that one once said something to their section officer, who was the Navy family officer I mentioned earlier. And she told me about it afterward. She said, Seaman so-and-so looked at me and said, why doesn’t the skipper care about anything we do? (27:12) CS: Now the XO did. He was from a more diverse background in terms of his assignments. And he was actually senior to the CO, and he did care about what was going on. And he didn’t really care about the format you had for giving it to him. He was more interested in whether you knew what was going on and could just tell him. JS: Can you describe what it was that you were doing? CS: To a much greater extent than I used to be able to. They just, in the early ‘90s, they decided to declassify the basic mission statement. So what we did was, when I first went in it was referred to by the acronym SoSys, the Sound Surveillance System. And became the IUSS, the Integrated under Surveillance System, when they added different sensors to it. But basically what it amounted to was passive anti-submarine warfare. So we had sensors in the water that were permanently there. And we listened. Back in those days, “listening” was an accurate verb more so than it became later. Because in the first generation systems, you could still plug a set of sound powered headphones into the machinery and actually listen to the microphones that were in the ocean. But they lost that capability later as the machinery that supported it and displayed the signal in a visual format, so that you could look at it and make a determination of whether you were seeing submarines or something else. It became more computerized. It �passed through more paths. In order to be processed. And you lost the ability to listen to the microphones. (29:02) JS: Now, did you detect much of anything? Could you… CS: Oh, yes. Yes. JS: Could you tell a submarine from a whale and things like that? CS: They taught you how to do that. After I left Officer Candidate School, because of where I was going, I was sent first to a school in Norfolk, which was why I was flying out of Baltimore, to go there. And it was basically the same information they taught to the enlisted personnel, in the school that they went to. Anti-submarine warfare was big business, from…shortly before that point. About five, six years before that point, well, a little longer than that. It existed, they started putting in the sound surveillance system in the early ‘50s. that’s when they started snatching land from people that didn’t want to give it up. And putting the stations there. Running the cables out to sea, with the microphones, with the cable layers. And listening. But it became…there was a lot more emphasis on it from about the mid ‘70s until the early ‘90s. and once the Soviet threat went away, as far as blue water capability, they de-emphasized it extremely rapidly. It was part of the amalgamation of forces as part of the drawdown. (30:23) CS: But we saw a fair amount of activity. Not a lot where we were. The way we pointed wasn’t toward major Soviet activity, although we picked it up in certain areas. What was important was that there were stations in different locations and because you were a passive system rather than an active system, the way that you located things was crosshairs. Between, you know. And it was still a probability area. It was still some place in this area between this area, there is a probability that there is a submarine of this kind because it’s making this kind of noise. (31:06) JS: Now, do you have a sense of what the larger purpose of all of this was? What good did the data actually do us? CS: Actually, we were fairly well informed for junior people, that way. Because at a very junior level, not my first duty station but my second, because I was on Guam for seventeen months and from there I went to Norfolk to the processing center. The next level up. Where they got the information from all their stations in their basin, looked at the data and made a determination as to where they thought submarines were. So you got to watch the reporting process and who it was reported to, and they made sure that it was pounded into your head, with a mallet if necessary, that if you make a decision that says the center of the probability area for what you believe to be a submarine is outside this particular area, if it’s any closer to the U.S. mainland, you are going to push a button to release a message that’s going to cost the United States government a million dollars. Be sure that you know what you’re doing. JS: Okay. �(01:32:18) CS: Because if we pushed that button and said the submarine was this much closer, they would move the entire East Coast strategic bombing force back, away from the East coast farther. So, yeah, their information got used. JS: Did that kind of thing happen? CS: Oh, absolutely. It was always a big deal. You had to call and tell the chain of command, when you were moving, when I say outside a certain area, it was normal for Soviet submarines to patrol within a predictable big ocean area. If they came closer than that, then they were violating their own normal patterns, then, potentially, and there could be a reason to be concerned. JS: How regular a thing was that? CS: Not regular. It might happen once every couple of years. I can remember it happening twice, while I was in Norfolk. JS: And how long did they have you in Norfolk, that first time? (01:33:23) CS: That was twenty seven months. It was an odd length of tour, because it those days…it went up and down. Sometimes it was, you were automatically looked at for accession from the Naval Reserve, which is what you were commissioned in, to the regular Navy, and sometimes you had to apply. At a certain point in your career. And it was between when you were an 02 and an 03, that you did that. Well, because you didn’t have a commitment beyond your original four year commitment, usually, it made your tours a bit odd in length. The second time around. Normal tours aren’t like that, unless you’re extended for some Navy reason. You get assigned somewhere for a year, or twenty four months or thirty six months, especially if you’re married. Or it’s an especially good duty station. Like Pearl. JS: What sort of duty station is Norfolk? It’s a lot of Navy there. CS: The Navy defines things as, in two different parameters. In two different axes. One is inconus/outconus. And the other is preferred/non-preferred. Okay. And within preferred/nonpreferred, there’s preferred shore/non-preferred shore, and preferred sea/non preferred sea. At different times. This changes from time to time, the way they define it. And things drop in and out of it, with categories, so. I’m not in touch with what’s going on with it right now. I haven’t been for a while. But Norfolk was considered preferred shore. Because it was a fairly developed area. It was, there were a lot of different things that you could select from, and stay in the area, if that met the needs of the Navy. Unlike the Air Force, which allowed you to homestead. The Navy discouraged that. (01:35:24) CS: The Air Force allowed it. You simply had to accept the fact that if you were going to homestead at a place where there wasn’t a slot at the next promotion level, for you to be �promoted into, you weren’t going to be promoted, as long as you stayed there. The Navy was transitioning in the early ‘80s out of the mindset that you see in a lot of the old movies, where you had the old salt who was still very junior in terms of responsibility, had been in the Navy for a long time and was the “sea daddy” for the young guys coming in, to make sure they knew what was going on and the way things worked. They were trying to discourage that. They wanted, they wanted progression and skills. And “up or out” for them. So there was a lot of legislation, which also affected the officer community in the early ‘80s. There was an act called DOPMA (The Defense Officer Personnel Management Act of 1980) and it changed the rules. The rules up until that point had been, if you came into the service, in a commissioned status, and you went regular, once you went regular, you didn’t have any time limit on your contract, your first set of four years commitment. Then you had to ask to leave. You were, you were considered at certain points for promotion. But if you made it to 04, you were safe. (01:37:06) JS: Now, what do 03, 04 refer to specifically? CS: The pay grades. It’s easier when you’re talking multi-service type things to use pay grades when you’re talking rather than use ranks because of course the Air Force and Marine Corps and the Army all use a set of ranks that are similar to each other, in the way that they’re verbalized and the Navy’s is different. JS: Yeah. To be a Captain in the Navy is quite different from being a Captain in the Army or the Marines. CS: Oh, absolutely. So, an 01 in the Navy is an ensign. 01 in the other services is a 2nd Lietenant. Of course, if you want to get really screwed up, you started throwing the British Navy in there. (laughs) But, 04, which is a Major in the other services, is a Lt. Commander. If you made it as far as that, then they had to let you stay as far as 20. Once you were, accepted a promotion under the DOPMA Act, if you didn’t hit a gate and you were selected after two opportunities for selection, they could force you out. (01:38:19) JS: Hit a gate? What does that mean? CS: Ah, meet a certain…make it to the time frame where you were going to be considered for promotion to the next rank. I tend to use that term, even though it really isn’t used that much in the U.S. military. It’s a British term. But it amounts to the same thing. You’re considered for promotion at particular lengths of service. Basically, it stays the same but it varies a little bit on a curve, depending on the size of the grouping available at any given time for a consideration. As an example. In 1978 when I was commissioned, the maximum age for commissioning, you had to be before commissioning, before your twenty-sixth birthday. That was the last year, by the way. I was 26 that year. Not until winter. But in ’79, ’80, and I think ’81, they raised the maximum commissioning age to 30, or … I think it was thirty, before, for some of the limited type duty assignments. And one of my friends, who is my age, came in a year later, because they had changed that. Well, that has an effect on how many people you have available in what’s called a ‘year group,” all of the people that were commissioned that fiscal year. So year group �’79 was much larger than year group ’78. So they didn’t consider all of them at the same time, when you start getting into the higher ranks, it hasn’t thinned out as much, so you have more people for consideration. So they may choose to split that group and consider part of them in this year (gestures with hands) and part of them in this year (gestures with hands). For promotion, to the next pay grade. (01:40:38) CS: In my case, it’s almost automatic to make 02, Lt. Junior Grade. It’s two years from your commissioning date. JS: Right. CS: And, when I went through, 3% of the people didn’t make it. Whether it was for some specific reason, medical, performance, very bad performance, not to make 02. Guys in those days would actually react, “my god, I knew a three percent-er.” (laughs) Cause nobody knew somebody that didn’t make it. And, it was almost that high, for promotion to 03. Then they started cutting, because at 03, then people could get out. They didn’t normally, they didn’t have to go over and become regular Navy. So you’d lose a group of people that way, who didn’t go beyond their original commitment. And, but that wasn’t enough people for the number of people, which they’d make a determination based on the number of slots the Navy had at that grade. And in those communities they needed to promote. How many aviators do I need to promote, how many surface warfare guys do I need to promote to 04. And so they had boards, in those days, in Washington, and in Tennessee, now. Who look at your performance. And they rank everybody. Who was eligible. And they’d put everybody in three piles. I never sat on a one but I know people who have and they do it the same way all of the time. These obviously make it. These obviously don’t make it. Okay, let’s talk about these guys, which is the huge amount in the middle. (01:42:00) JS: Now, if you don’t make it, can you still stay in at your current rank? I mean, can you still stay on indefinitely or do they try to push you out? CS: Not indefinitely. That was the change that was made under DOPMA. You could stay, before DOPMA. You could stay after the first look, even after DOPMA. Cause you got two primary looks. When you were actually considered to be in the zone. And they actually looked at you sometimes below the zone, the year before that, and above the zone, the year after that, pre-DOPMA, but once you hit the second look after DOPMA went into effect, they could force you out within six months. (01:42:41) JS: And did you know people who had that happen to them? CS: It happened to me. I was in the general unrestricted aligned community. A lot of the women who were commissioned, most of them as a matter of fact, who weren’t in specialty groups, couldn’t go into warfare community units at that point. You couldn’t become a surface warfare officer or an aviation officer or a submarine officer. But you were still an unrestricted �line officer, meaning you were in the line of secession to command. If there were catastrophes going on. So they would send you to support positions that were defined as needing any unrestricted line officer, because some of the jobs were defined that way. And that’s how you got into integrated undersea warfare, and training commands, and administrative duties, of various kinds. And communications. Because communications officers were not a specialty at that point. And eventually, as we progress and there are more people, more women are being allowed into the academies. They reached a point where they said, okay, we now have a viable pipe that goes into the warfare communities. So do we actually need unrestricted, general unrestricted line officers anymore? And the answer was, well, maybe not. Let’s look. What functions do they perform that are vital to what we are doing. And that’s the way they came out in four groupings. (01:44:20) CS: There was administration, communications, and specialty services, like anti-submarine warfare, and we, on the technical side, anti-submarine warfare and communications, were much smaller than this big group of people who did administrative things. JS: Right. CS: And they said, okay, these are viable, but we need to figure out whether we’re going to change the community to be something else. What size does it need to be. How many people do we need in it, and at what levels. And that’s going to take us a couple of years, cause we have to do it as a study. Cause they talked to the Chief of Communications and Admiral [Kelso] said, okay. This was in the early ‘90s, when the drawdown was happening. (01:45:01) JS: Right. CS: After the (Berlin) Wall fell down. And the Navy, the…all the services were cutting and everybody did it differently. The Air Force just went “Whack,” and got rid of a whole bunch of pilots, all at once. They didn’t let people who were going through [ROTCI], which is one of their training programs, they just didn’t let them go into pilot programs, unless they were superb at what they did. The Marine Corp did it, it all fell at different points, depending on what part of the service you implemented. The Navy did it in very measured fashion, with cuts over five years. But the community I was in had an exemption, because they were trying to figure out what size it was going to be. And what they were going to call it. Eventually, they decided to call it Fleet Support, and it, instead of being a designator for a number for a unit…Surface warfare officers were an 1110. General and restricted line officers were 1100. They were going to transition us to a restricted line community, 1700. And they did that so that the last three or four years I was in, I was a 1700, but they switched it back after I retired, because it didn’t work well, and are doing it differently now. But, at the point that the five years ran out, it was the last year that the Navy was going to make any cuts. And they looked at it and they said, okay…I was already an 05 by then, so retirement eligible, the whole works, they said we’re going to need to cut, I think it was thirty three 05s, and half a dozen 04s, this year, that’s our share for the Navy. So that’s the way things stood, without retirement papers being in. So a whole bunch of �retirement papers went in. And I was in the zone that year. For selection to 06. And I was also in the zone for cutting. JS: Right. (01:47:10) CS: So if I had made 06, on the first look, I would have still been in for another, whatever I decided to stay, three, four years. But I didn’t. And the boards met at the same time, that year. The 06 board and the selective early retirement board. JS: So you got downsized. CS: I got downsized. JS: Okay. Well, let’s back up a bit, off of the bureaucratic angle quite so much. You were based, you go to Guam, you go to Norfolk. Where do you go after that? CS: Japan. JS: All right. And where do they send you in Japan? CS: I was, I worked out of the Naval base in Yokosuka. And I worked with a special operations detachment that was part of the staff. It was really very interesting in a physical environment sense because it was before a lot fo the new structures were built. You got to watch the way the relationship worked between the Japanese forces and the U.S. forces, and the two governments, about which had permission to do. Because the base officially belongs to Japan and they own all the buildings and so they have to agree with what you do with the buildings. I worked with the rest of the operations department…most of the headquarters staff worked in a building, maybe a quarter of a mile inside the front gate. Including the Admiral. But the Operations department worked across the parking lot. In a cave. With the construction on the inside. And it was one of the caves that the Japanese used to protect forces from bombing during World War II. There were lower level of the cave. I think there actually used to be a hospital facility there. That were flooded. And the Command Master Chief, the most senior enlisted person on the staff, had permission to take small groups down, a couple of times a year. If you wanted, he’d take you below on a little tour. So you could see the scorpions in the water. (laughs) Or whatever. (01:49:11) CS: So, I worked for a commander who was a surface warfare qualified gentleman, who had been in Vietnam who had been [Rivereen] forces. Mostly, there were four officers who worked for him. Two women, two men. We traded duties with each other because we had to go TDY on a regular basis. Temporary Duty in another location. So one of us would be there, of each group, and the other one would be away, doing other things. JS: And were you doing similar kinds of work as before? Listening? CS: Yes. �JS: And what was the environment like just to live in, in Japan, at that point? (01:49:53) CS: Fascinating. It really was. I had the best of both worlds because if you were in Yokosuka, you had quarters. Bachelors quarters. And you kept those, while you were gone. So your stuff was there. And while you were away, you actually lived on the Japanese economy. So I lived in what would have been a residence big enough for three or four people, a family, a small family in Japan. But it (looking around), it would fit in this room. The entire thing. So, so I had to live with what was typical Japanese country plumbing at the time. I had a wonderful bath. I had an ofuros, which was kind of cross between a bathtub and a hot tub, the way we understand. It didn’t work the same way. You would fill it up with water and then it had a gas supplied heat to the piping underneath, so it was incredibly hot. And you left that on the whole time so it stayed hot. So it was a soaking tub. And you had a shower head in the wall besides that. Because you cleaned off before you got in the tub. I learned how to do public bathing in Japan because, you can. And it’s isolated by sex, so it’s not expected to be a problem. However the toilet facilities were interesting. Basically, an indoor outhouse. So it was a little addition on the exterior of the building and you accessed it from inside. But it was separate enough that it wasn’t an issue. It was a standard fixture, but it didn’t have plumbing attached. JS: Okay. (01:51:54) CS: It worked just like an outhouse and someone would come in once a year, the landlord had someone come in and pump the thing out. (laughs) So, it was interesting. I had to learn enough Japanese so that I could buy groceries locally. It was very frustrating. You couldn’t buy anything to read. Everything of course was in kanji. Usually traveled by the national line trains, when you could. Except for places where you knew where you were going. Because there are the publicly owned national lines. And then there are lines that are privately owned. They’re in competition. Well, the public lines, because they are publicly owned, nationally owned, have to have the characters that identify the station in both Japanese characters and in English language characters, in romaji. So you could read the station name. JS: Right. (01:52:53) CS: so where the private lines share the station, it’s not an issue. But there were a few stations that were only on that private line, and if you didn’t know where you were, you wouldn’t know where you were or how to get off. The base trained you in how to get around. It was part of intercultural training. It was interesting. They would, they had you for three days when you first reported and they would expose you to various things that you could expect and tell you what not to do. You know, the standard gesture you make with babies. You know, I’ve got your nose (illustrates this). Don’t ever do that in Japan. JS: Okay. �CS: Never never never do that in Japan. It’s obscene. Some mother will lose her cool and call for assistance rather than whack you over the head, like an American mother would with her purse, for doing that to her child. They taught you the difference in physical characteristics. Body language is different in Japan. (Illustrates by pointing back and forth) This is me and you, talking. In the U.S. if you wanted someone to come to you, you would do this. In Japan, that’s only for animals and small children. JS: Okay. (01:54:07) CS: This is for grownups. This is not bye-bye. This is come. (can not see hand motions on video.) JS: In general, how well did the Americans on your base seem to get along with the Japanese? CS: Fairly well. Most of the guys were assigned to ships that came in and out of Yokosuka. They liked the fact that they could out on the town on the [Hunch], which was the main street that had small restaurants and bars on it. Just to have a good time. But most of them adjusted quite well. The stuff that you see in the news occasionally, is, as shocking as it is, is that shocking because it’s so unusual. JS: You mean, like attacks on girls or things like that. CS: (nods head) Yes. The neat thing about Japan in those days, one of the common things that was discussed was, and they’d even tell you in intercultural relations, that a lot of Japanese society in the early ‘80s, cause I got there in ’82, and I left in ’84, were still like the ‘50s, in the United States. One of the things they taught you, and I don’t remember it anymore, was the phrase to yell if anybody bothered you. Because every man in the area would converge and shoo him away. (01:55:25) JS: Now, how long were you based there? CS: A little over two years. I was actually due to rotate in July in ’84 and stayed until November so that they could have an overlap with the person coming behind me. No gap. Interesting. JS: Okay. And where did you go after that? CS: Back to Norfolk, to the exact same place I had left. But to a different job in the organization. So I was doing similar things. And I was there for a little over two years. And then I transferred to Pearl Harbor. JS: Okay. And what was working in Pearl Harbor like? �CS: Oh. Pearl was great. It deteriorated in terms of being a tropical island environment since then. Because urban area, ten lanes of traffic on the freeway. Most people don’t associated that with Oahu, but it wasn’t like that then. The freeway was only four lanes in its busiest location. I lived a ways outside town. (01:56:30) CS: There’s all of the history associated with Pearl. I mean, when I was first stationed there, the Missouri wasn’t there yet. But, because she was still running around…because they’d recommissioned that battleships during that time frame. But you know, got to go look at the Arizona, and climb Diamond Head, and look at the emplacements up there, where the guns were. The bullet holes are still in the building, that Pacific Headquarters is in on the Air Force base. And you can look at them. One of my friends who lives there, Connie, was born there and spent a large amount of her youth there. Her father was an Air Force chaplain. And she ran the local USO facility, for a while, at the airport, and has all these old post cards of where the old facilities are, and World War II pictures of different things that used to happen then. (01:57:28) CS: It was Guam, only it was much better. It smelled a little better. It had a greater variety of vegetation. It had gorgeous beaches everywhere. The traffic was not bad. Then. JS: Better bookstores? CS: Oh, yeah. As a matter of fact, when I was living in Japan, one of the guys who was on the staff, but not in Operations. He was in Intelligence. He used to come to Hawaii four times a year to go to the bookstore at Pearl Ridge Mall. (Laughter) He would buy like five boxes of books and they’d mail them all to him. But yes, definitely better bookstores. (01:58:06) JS: And were you continuing to do the same kind of work that you had been doing? CS: No, actually. I was assigned to the PAC Fleet staff. So the senior operational Navy officer on the island, he was a 4 star…there was another Navy 4 star on the island but he was in charge of the joint command up at Camp Smith, and had Army and Air Force and whatever working for him, and was in charge of a geographical area at the time, as opposed to being in charge of all of the fleet forces in the Pacific Ocean. So I was on his staff. But I was in intelligence. I wasn’t in operations. I had asked for… I tried to figure out a way to describe what I wanted on my duty preference sheet, and I described it as technical intelligence. So my literal minded detail went through and hit on something that was defined as something that was label “technical intelligence” on the Fleet staff. So I wound up there, on a job where I eventually handled the control of what intelligence was disseminated to fleet units, afloat. You know, if you wanted to be added to a message distribution for something, you came in with a message and said...dah dah dah dah. And I would say, okay, or, no, you’re not supposed to have that by policy. And if I said yes, I would just send a message saying okay, and send it to the right people. And the person who had release authority would sign it. That was my Navy 06 that I worked for. (01:59:41) �CS: And, if I said no, I had to add justification paperwork to it. And get the Admiral to sign it. Because you weren’t allowed to say no. Without permission. You had to have a very good reason. So I did that. I handled Intelligence Exchange Conferences, the coordination of them. So any foreign arrangements we had with foreign Navies to share information, usually involved having a conference once or twice a year, to talk about common concerns. JS: Right. (02:00:15) CS: And I would handle those up, for the 06. JS: What countries were involved in that? CS: We, ah, we had formal relationships with Japan, of course. And with Korea. We have mutual defense treaties with both of them. As a matter of fact, five of the seven standing mutual defense treaties that the United States has are in the Pacific. And those are two of them. We also had a regular meeting with Thailand, one of the other formal defense arrangements. And a regular meeting with our Four-eyes allies. Canada, Great Britain and Australia. That was the fun one. (laughs) Everyone spoke English and got into all kinds of mischief. (02:01:05) JS: Was it generally interesting work, relative to what you had been doing, or… CS: I found parts of it more interesting than others. There were things about setting up Intelligence Exchange Conferences that were vastly boring and were basically secretarial work. But you had also had to make the decisions that went with them, which secretaries weren’t allowed to do. Some of it was… I enjoyed the exposure to the Intelligence community. Enough so that I…and because I was in this job, I… the secondary, technical skill that you earned with what I did in passive anti-submarine warfare was also intelligence related, it gave me what was called a sub-specialty, in intelligence. Two of them, one for joint intelligence and one for technical. So I was allowed to list intelligence in a section on my duty preference sheet for things that I would like to do in the future. And I kept myself on that list for a long time and it wound up affecting my final duty assignment, too. (02:02:12) JS: Okay. Now how long were you in Pearl Harbor? CS: Longer than I was supposed to be. We ended up going through a time frame while I was there when they were doing fiddly weird things with the budget and they wound up extending everybody in the Navy where they were for an additional two months, and then there was an additional two months besides that that got added on to me, so I was actually there, instead of thirty six months, I was there almost forty. I was there for thirty nine. I enjoyed myself. JS: So when did you leave there then? CS: I left at the end of April in 1990, and went to California. �JS: And where did they base you there? CS: Naval Facility, Centerville Beach. Which is the same type of duty that I had been doing, but I was an Operations officer rather than someone who was directing the watch. And that base…well, it’s silly to say it’s not there anymore, but it’s not there anymore. Physically, it’s still there but it was decommissioned as a base shortly after I left, three years later. (02:03:12) JS: All right. And as a place to live, did you like it better than Hawaii, or Norfolk, or wherever? CS: I liked it better than Norfolk. Far less than Hawaii. I thought I was going to freeze to death. After I’d been in Hawaii for three years, I’d lost all of my resistance to any kind of cold. Well, believe it or not, the area that I was in was 250 miles north of San Francisco and on the coast. And if it got up to 75 in the summer, it was considered quite warm. I remember in desperation a couple of times just getting in my car and driving inland, or somewhere south for an hour, to warm up. (laughs) JS: Right. CS: It was fairly isolated as a location, for California. Not what you think of as being California at all, because of where it was. It’s up by, uh, I actually lived in Eureka, so Eureka was about half way between Humboldt State and Arcada, and the base was outside a little tourist trap Victorian style town. So I lived in a town that was the biggest thing for a hundred miles around, basically. It was 20,000 people. (laughs) So, and it actually had a mall. It’d had a mall for five years, by the time I got there. A little one, about the size of one wing of Woodland (Mall, in Grand Rapids, Michigan). So it was okay. I had enough shopping there. (02:04:43) CS: I liked the physical environment. We could, we were by Trinity Alps and the state parks all through there. And Redwood National Forest, and the California state parks that are redwoods oriented. We were surrounded by all of this. So it was nice in that respect. It was very difficult for me to swim, which was what I did for my physical training testing every year, that I’d taken up in Hawaii, when it became legal to do that instead of only running. I had to do it at the local community college, which had very limited hours. So, I… it was okay. It wasn’t special. There were things I disliked about the environment a lot. Not about California itself. I wouldn’t go back there. There are things… JS: What… CS: a couple of things that I have bad associations with there. My mother died while I was there, for one thing. JS: And then, from there, where’d you go after that? (02:05:56) �CS: War College. Newport. JS: Back to Newport? CS: Back to Newport. Which granted me my Masters degree. The Navy War College is a degree granting institution. Because, at the time, I don’t know if they still are or not, they kept the same guy in charge there on for quite a while longer than they normally did, until they came up with another Admiral who had a PhD. Who therefore met the requirements to keep the degree granting status. So, I was there for ten months, for school. And had a wonderful time being with classmates, who were, basically, my peers. And from there, I went to Portugal. (02:06:36) JS: All right. And what did they have you doing there? CS: I was the officer in charge of the U.S. unit that supported personnel attached to a native staff. So it was a NATO staff in Lajes, Portugal. Cinciberlant. And the 3 star in charge of Cinciberlant is Portuguese. The deputy, 2 star, is American. And operations officer, a one star, is a Brit. And we also had a couple of German officers on staff. And a couple of Spanish liaison officers. We technically had a French liaison officer, but he was never there, cause it was in an additional duty for him. He was actually an attache’ at the French embassy. JS: Right. (02:07:12) CS: And he was in Lisbon most of the time. That was…that was fun. The unattached people my age, who were sort of my peers, were Brit. So I wound up hanging out with the unattached Brit officers on the staff. One of them is still a friend. She was the nursing sister in charge of the, who worked in the medical support unit. The Americans owned the dentist. The Brits owned the doctor. And nurse. So we were all treated by each other’s medical people. And she retired about five years after that, after she got back to England. And lives in Bath and I’ve visited her a couple of times. JS: Now what kind of work were you doing there? CS: Basic administrative work. Um, I owned the postal clerk, who was a subset of the Air Force Post Office that ran out of the embassy. I owned a small detachment of people that actually belonged to Rota, Spain, one of who was a personnel specialist and two of whom were dispersing people, who made sure we got paid, and who had money so that we could change U.S. money into Portuguese money, rather than keep local bank accounts. In Portuguese money. And lose money all the time. (laughs) (02:08:32) CS: I also owned a couple administrative personnel. A yeoman, a yeoman seaman who kept records. Cut orders, if I needed to send people for specialized medical treatment. To Spain. Where the hospital was. And I owned the dentist and the dental technician. I also had two civilians who worked for me, who were technically Portuguese national, one of them was �actually Scottish, who was married to a Portuguese national. One of them was a housing specialist. She did two things. She ran the Admiral’s quarters. Which we rented for him. And took care of dealing with any maintenance issues, and dealing with the landlord. And she also helped U.S. people coming in find places to live. Because we didn’t have military housing. Everybody lived on the economy and had a special allowance for it. (02:09:26) CS: The other civilian helped with logistics, transporting people’s property in and out. So, and she was, she had worked for the embassy. In South Africa, for a long time. The U.S. embassy. Moved home. Technically, both of my civilians worked for the embassy system. Because the entire group of U.S. support people that were there originally started out as an extension of the embassy staff. Attached to the attache’. And then when they put a NATO staff there, they took the flag billet away. Put it there and some of the people went there. And so they still technically owned my civilians. We didn’t have hiring ability locally. It was a confusing situation because the person who had all the oversight over me was the Deputy, the U.S. 2 star. But technically, I worked for the Admiral in London. For the CINCUSNAV Europe. (02:10:25) JS: Now was it a group who worked together pretty well? CS: Pretty much so. It was interesting when you did Hispanic Heritage while I was there because at one point, my postal clerk’s wife was Mexican. My yeoman was second generation Mexican. So was his wife, high school sweetheart. My personnel-man was Spanish. My DK chief, my dispersing chief, was a Hispanic extraction Pilipino. And my dental clerk’s husband was Portuguese. JS: And could they all talk to each other? CS: Oh, yes. Yes. It was fascinating. Belinda, who was the yeoman’s wife, used to whack him over the head occasionally. His first name was Fidel, by the way. And he had a goony sense of humor so he took advantage of it. Um, he would chatter away and think he was speaking more Portuguese than he was, and she would just go, “you’re not speaking Portuguese, Fidel. You’re speaking in Spanish.” She was learning more of it. As they went along. (02:11:39) CS: And I had radio yeomen who were on the NATO part of the staff, I supported, one who was from South America some place, one who was from Puerto Rico. (laughs) It was very interesting doing Hispanic Heritage day with all those guys there. JS: Right. Okay. Now where did you go after that? CS: I had orders out of there to the Defense Intelligence Agency in Washington. JS: Was that your last assignment? �CS: That was my last assignment. I did not work at DI proper. I worked in the Pentagon in the section that belonged to the joint staff. DI provides all of the intelligence personnel who are part of the joint staff J2. So they don’t count against the limitation on the number of people you can have on the joint staff. The legal limitation. And I worked with those people. So I worked in the Pentagon the whole time. (02:12:27) JS: And what kind of work were you doing there? CS: I did two different things. The first two years I was there, I was the Deputy Division Chief of the group of people who were, oh about, 60/40, sixty percent civilian, forty percent military, who handled response to crisis in intelligence issues, in support of the joint staff. The last year that I was there, I swapped out with one of my Marine Corp compatriots and went from one division to another division. And went to the group that stood watches and directly supported the General on the Operations side, who was also standing watch for crisis situations. So I handled the team of people that had area specialists and subject matter specialists, like guys who belonged to the National Security Agency, who were electronic intelligence emissions specialists. A CIA guy. Service desk officers, who I had a Navy desk officer, and then I had a guy who handled Eur-Asia, and a guy who handled the Pacific area, and a guy who handled Latin America. Specialists, and about a dozen people in a team. (02:13:38) JS: Okay. Then, did you have crises to respond to? CS: Oh, absolutely. During that time frame, there was always a bunch of nasty stuff going on in Africa, that you were keeping track of. You were also…it was post-Desert (Storm), but we were still flying watch over southern and northern… JS: Iraq, right? CS: Right. So there were things that you had to watch about what was going on with the flights. Reasons that you would have to call the J2, or notify the General who was standing the watch on the other side of the wall. There were things to do with monitoring missile launches. Either announced or unannounced. That you had to deal with. And you had drills, about what to do if it were the real thing. Those were interesting. (02:14:30) JS: In general were the people from the different branches of the military, and the civilians, did they work together effectively in these units? CS: Yes. In an environment that joint, they did. When you go back to Navy culture, you are exposed to someone who’s in a part of the Navy that has a lot of community prestige. Say the naval Aviation community. You’ll find guys that had a joint tour that just hated their joint tour. But there was legislation in the late ‘80s, about joint experience being a requirement for promotion to levels beyond a certain point. So they all have to do it, if they want to be promoted. �(02:15:13) JS: Then, over the course of your time in the Navy, did the atmosphere sort of change at all, for what it was like to be a woman in this service there? I mean, did it get easier or did attitudes stay about the same? CS: I don’t know that you would describe it as being easier. There are differences. The ability to go to different types of duty assignments changed. Increased. I remember my first duty station when they were going, on Guam, was when they were first looking at sending women to flight school. And they were taking applicants from active service, also. My commanding officer at the time asked me if I was going to apply. Well, I have corrected eyesight. And I hadn’t been wearing glasses for very long at that point. I didn’t start wearing them until about a year before I went in the service. And he didn’t realize because I was always wearing tinted glasses and my glasses were in fact prescription. And they weren’t taking anybody with eyesight that wasn’t corrected. So that was one thing. Um, I watched as they expanded the number of types of float units that women could be assigned to. Both officers and enlisted. The friend that I mentioned that was one of the first people that I knew that was from a Navy family, who had command twice, she went from our first duty station on Guam to an assignment on a submarine tender. On the east coast. And stayed surface Navy after that. And all of her commands have been in that community. Different types of ships, both times. (02:16:53) CS: Um, it’s far less restrictive than it was, in terms of duty assignments. Attitudes. It was bumpy, for a while. Because of course, no one really expected to have to take in to account what they should of expected to take into account. Which was how do you deal with a force that’s getting pregnant? (laughs) So, they’ve learned to cope with that. And there were some very negative vibes about that. For a while. They had to change all the rules, at one point, about pregnancy discharge. Because at one point, the only time in fact that you could get a pregnancy discharge was if you were pregnant. And then later it became not a cause for discharge. Voluntary or involunatary. (02:17:45) CS: I remember when I was stationed in Pearl, a guy in a restaurant, I had gone some place for lunch in uniform, asking me…there weren’t very many customers in at the time so he was idle, whether I had any problems with authority. And you say, no, if there are people with authority issues, they’ve mostly weeded them out, by the time you have to start dealing with them, except as a very junior officer. But, I noticed a major difference when I took the uniform off. (02:18:25) JS: What do you mean? CS: Much much harder to get things done. Because, eventually, it sank into the culture enough that they didn’t look at the person. They only looked at the uniform. And the rank. So, yes, it made a difference because you had different physical requirements. But it didn’t make the kind of difference it did when I first came in. There were still restrictions, still restrictions. Places you can’t go. There are no women in submarines. And that was really the only thing I would �have been interested in, personally. Would be duty at submarines. Aviation didn’t interested me. Neither did surface warfare. (02:18:59) JS: Now did you have a sense that there were Naval officers, especially when you came in, men, that didn’t really think that women should be there in the first place? CS: In the combat forces? Oh, yeah. It’s still a problem. I think. Some places in the Army. And it’s very hard, to deal with, on a public relations basis. When you have people under attack that is in fact related to the fact that they are women. In areas like the desert. JS: And were you aware of problems like this, sexual harassment and things like that going on? (02:19:30) CS: Yeah. We would talk about it. It was a subject of discussion. Have you ever been sexually harassed? I was surveyed a lot of times, mostly because I respond to them, when they send them to me. And…I never personally felt sexually harassed. But I knew people who did. I just was luckier. JS: Now you were based in California during the point that the Tailhook scandal came out? CS: Um hmm. JS: Now what sort of response was there, on your base, or how did they deal with that? (02:20:12) CS: Oh, that was interesting. Um, we had a junior officer that was a lieutenant, an 03, she had just made it. And she had come from an Aviation unit, even though she was not an aviator. So she had gone to Tailhook one year. And she actually knew the woman who was the prime point of contention. During what was going on. She said very privately, in discussions, that she probably brought it on herself. To a limited extent. No should have still have been no. but her behavior tended to be a bit wild and it led to things it didn’t need to lead to. Also my assistant operations officer…because in California, I was the Operations officer for the base, was a Navy aviator, who was a lieutenant, who had been to Tailhook in the past but had not been to that one. So you would have discussions about what people went into Tailhook expecting. And your basic response from most people who weren;t involved in the actual Tailhook convention, where the problem occurred, was Tailhook started out as a professional association where there were no seniority rules. Okay? (02:21:37) CS: Anybody could say anything to whoever was there. So if you were an 02, a lieutenant AG, you could tell it the way you saw it to the 06 aviators, who were there, who could influence the community. You had…one of the organizers were responsible for the getting of the venue and the details and setting up the professional seminars. Because they had very very good professional seminars associated with Tailhook. And the other thing that you went in expecting was a lot of drinking. Okay. You expected that. You didn’t necessarily expect misbehavior. �You did expect a lot of drinking. I had to certify that none of my subordinates had been in attendance at Tailhook. In writing. To the Navy. So that was… and that went into their records, that said they were not there. There was a service record entry on it. Later, when I was at War College, one of my classmates, who was also not just a classmate of the larger class, but was also in my seminar, was the guy who organized that Tailhook. He told us right up front that that’s who he was. At the meeting. (02:23:04) CS: At the time, he had been on a fast track for flag officer. He had assignment as a CEG. The person who runs all of the aviators afloat on a carrier. That he was about to go to, after this was over with. And, there was an inkling that there was an occurrence. At the conference. Which he knew about, only from having been told. It wasn’t something he witnessed. He had his wife at the conference. A lot of the guys brought their wives to the conference. And I met her, and she said the most serious thing that she endured while she was there was being pinched. And she just turned around and whacked whoever it was. But, um, he went ahead and he’d asked his chain of command if they thought that there’d be a problem if he went ahead, he was supposed to deploy. And they said, no no, go ahead. And he deployed. And then it started. Constant constant interaction with legal. They wound up having to fly him back from sea, assign him to a shore staff. He was never going to make it beyond the level that he was. And it was a terrible burden to them emotionally. To go through this over and over and over, at each level of the investigation. (02:24:26) CS: And I remember running into her, I’d gone into the uniform shop for something. And she was there getting out the car, probably picking something up for him, and I looked at her and she had the funniest look on her face. And I went over to her and said, “Are you all right?” And she said, “yes, it’s over. It’s finally over.” And she just bawled, for half an hour. It was bad that it had that kind of effect on somebody who did nothing wrong. (Wipes away tears. Shakes head) (02:25:07) JS: Something that seemed to kind of have a fallout beyond that in the Navy, were there policy changes or directives coming in, that… CS: Oh, yeah. There was. There was, of course, a much greater emphasis on harassment training. They revamped the program, re-did all of the standard training. Um, I think that the training itself became more effective, um, in that it was pointed…it was slightly modernized. They did a lot of work to try to make it more readily understandable. Pertinent to a different age group coming in. It had negative effects too. Tailhook was a very, a very valuable forum. The aviation community has a couple of things going for it in the Navy. (02:26:09) CS: One of them was the fact that it had this professional consortium where people could learn things together. It was a very, um, I don’t want to call it a bonding experience, it sounds so touchy-feely. But it didn’t make them tighter as a community and better able to trust each other as far as professional judgment, to what they’d been exposed to. It also exposes structural and functional problems to the entire chain of command, from a junior point of view. That was one �of the reasons it was a safe location. Nothing…nothing went out of there. I mean, you could be disrespectful to whoever you wanted to. And have it handled the way it was supposed to be. It was similar to, in a way, the way that the Naval Aviation community handled safety incidents. There’s no blame. You tell everything. So that they can make safety determinations properly on the equipment. That became much more limited, in terms of trust. (02:23:22) JS: Now, from where you were, did you kind of have the impression to the certain degree that there was excess, whatever, that it was in part kind of characteristic of the Aviation community as opposed to the rest of you. Uh, pilots are different people… CS: Pilots are a different bunch of people. You have to have a totally different kind of personality to operate successfully as a pilot. You put pilots in a group and pilots tend to behave like herd animals. JS: Yeah. CS: Submariners tend to be loners. They have to be. You’re in an extremely isolated situation where if you can’t make your own privacy around you, you can’t function for long periods of time underwater or deployed. Aviators also tend to be of an age group. (02:28:18) CS: Young. I had a friend who was an academy grad, who was a surface warfare officer. And in the academy, because your there for four years, in the summer they give you exposure to the different warfare communities, so you can see where you might have aptitude. They really wanted him to go into aviation. He had the reflexes for it, you see. But he didn’t care for the environment. He was not a herd animal. And when he was out, deployed at different points, he always had a plan for when they were going to be in port, for something that he was going to do. And the junior aviators, that was never the case. It was always, well, what’s the group going to do? Well, I’m not going to wait for the group to decide what to do. I’m going to have a plan to see something that I want, that I want to see in this strange area. Or that I want to experience. And if you want to go with me, that’s fine. (laughs) (02:29:24) CS: So, yes. Aviators are different. They tend to be extrovert personalities. In the very clichéd sense of the word. Needing the other people around for interaction. They can function on their own. They have to be able to function on their own, especially if they’re fighter pilots. That’s not how they socialize. When I was a lieutenant, JJ, I think his name was, the first time I was in Norfolk. I went to a class that was developed for the entire Navy in, for junior officers in leadership. Education and leadership training. Well, in Norfolk, it was a combined class of the version for Aviation and the version for everyone else. Cause there were slight differences. But they didn’t have enough people to handle it separately. So they combined the instructors. So I went through, I think at Naval Amphib base, but we had a lot of aviators in that particular class. So at lunch time one day, they put on a tape that was by a flight surgeon, who had been searching the topic for several years. And he had produced this instructional video that was kind of �controversial as far as the aviators were concerned. And these guys, this was their first opportunity to see it. (02:30:52) CS: Well, he had developed a theory that you could predict stress problems, in aviators, soon enough to be able to catch them in a safety related sense, if you watched their behavior patterns. And they, the behavior patterns, varied on a scale, he used 1 to 10. Rated from 0 to 10, but the P3 guys objected to being a zero (laughs) so, he had to change it. But the example he used was P3 guys, you judge a party, excellence, by the quality of the food and wine served, at the party. And he went up a level. And these guys, they judge a party’s excellence by the amount, the quantity of money that was consumed, spent on the party. And then you get to the fighter guys, just short of fighter pilots, the next level up, and that’s by the size of the bar bill. And then you get to the fighter pilots and they judge a party by the size of the damages to the bar. (Laughter) And then he said you get to helicopter pilots and they don’t have parties. (Laughs) So the level of stress goes up throughout. (02:32:20) CS: Really, it’s true. Because pilots have to be able to compartmentalize. And that’s what he was using to predict stress. To fly my plane, is the compartment in the middle. It’s the last one to go. So if you want to predict a safety problem from somebody, you have to look at the other compartments. Are they having family problems? Are they having stress problems in this area? Are they having other problems in their work? What going on with this and this and this… He said, now I’ve had a lot of guys ask me, thinking it would be a good idea if their spouse’s saw this particular film. I want you, before you ask that, to consider if you really want your wife to know that she lives only in a compartment of your life. (02:33:10) JS: You have your twenty-odd years in the Navy and then you eventually get downsized. Where do you go from there? CS: The only place that I ever cried when I left was Pearl Harbor. Every place was interesting but that was the only place that mattered that much to me, and I wanted to try living in Hawaii. It’s very expensive. It’s not easy to do on retired pay. So, it’s not really even possible to do it in any comfortable sense on retired pay plus working at some service job. You know, like McDonald’s or a bookstore, or something. So I knew that I would have to have another income. I have a lot of friends that are still in Hawaii, so I went out and stayed with one of them for six weeks, then moved into an efficiency and applied for positions. And I had figured out that I had enough money at I could stay there for about ten months. And if by then I did not have a job that could pay enough that I could stay, that I could ship my express shipment back to the mainland. I put everything else in storage. (02:34:15) JS: Right. CS: In the D.C. area. I had my car and about 800 pounds of express stuff, clothes and records and books, whatever, and I managed that. I applied for a civil service position in September, and �I got there in July. And the position closed. They called me for an interview in December. Told me in January that if I cleared, I had the job. I cleared in March and went to work for them in April. I had been working for the Census Bureau. That was census year. (02:34:50) CS: A little extra income coming in. And I work in intelligence. JS: So, now you do that as a civilian rather than… CS: (nods head yes.) Um hmm. JS: Now how do ou think your, ah, time in the service wound up affecting you as a person? Or how do you view the world of things? CS: It is very different. You have to learn to think in much wider terms. Both geographically. Issue-wise. In terms of…just in time zones. I mean, that’s one thing that being stationed in the Pacific does for you. If you can’t think in time zones, you can’t figure anything out. Cause you have to talk to D.C. in the morning and Japan in the afternoon. JS: Right. (02:35:28) CS: Um, we change very gradually. You notice at first that it changes what you eat. What you find acceptable. And then you notice that the things that you pay attention to, in the terms of the news, are not the same things that everybody else pays attention to. At home. I cannot talk to my brother about anything but family. I have no relationship to anything in local politics. And I still haven’t developed much of one, though it’s coming back. After being in Hawaii since 2000, so, almost, over eight years now. You pay attention to national elections, you pay attention to what your senator says. What your representative says in terms of international things. (02:36:30) CS: General domestic policy things on tax. You don’t pay attention to anything local, road systems, construction. Whatever. If your single. Now if your married, to tend to be able to take that skill set out and plug it in in a different location because it’s going to affect your children. JS: Right. CS: That stuff to do with the school systems and transportation and that kind of thing. You have different concerns. Portability of skills for your spouse. What’s a new area going to be like that way. So your much more aware of the differences in geographic areas, in terms of what the housing market looks like. In terms of what the job market looks like. (02:37:19) CS: Um. Especially the housing market. Even if your single. Somethings to do with the transportation pattern but not the transportation infrastructure, usually. Costs. I had a guy I was talking to in Hawaii when I was stationed there. I said, “where do you want to go when you �transfer, Ed?” He said, “Norfolk.” I said, why Norfolk? He said, because of the five or six big places that I could be stationed as an intelligence officer, which is what he was, that’s the only one where I can afford to buy a house. (02:37:52) CS: Cause all of the other areas were high cost areas. And he had a family, couple of little kids. You pay attention to different things in the weather. I mean, you start looking at patterns that affect much farther out. Then local weather reporting, it’s much different than when I first went in. You do see things in the satellite patterns in the local area, in regionally. And if you watch the weather channel, you see it. It’s become a skill that the civilian community also has, looking at weather in terms of travel. (02:38:36) JS: Um hmm. CS: But you develop that really quickly in the military, moving around, having to check things like that. The availability…you get very inventive about being able to get things that you can’t find, wherever you are. For a long time, every once in a while I would just go absolutely bonkers. And I would call my sister and say I need you to go to the grocery store and buy me two rings of bologna, freeze them solid for two weeks. Call Federal Express. Find out when the shipment goes out. Put it in a box and deliver it to Federal Express abot an hour before the shipment is going to go out, so they can pack it in dry ice and they can send it to wherever I am and it’ll thaw out just about the time it gets here. (Laughter.) (02:39:20) CS: it’s just like that silly episode of MASH, where they went crazy trying to get some food that they could only get in Chicago. Yes. You could figure out strange things like that, eventually. Of course, if you’re in Aviation and you know someone whose flying from one point to another, that helps. But I’ve never been able to take advantage of that sort of thing. You learn flight patterns. You pick up the habit of having the airline mileage accounts much earlier than most people do, so that you can do something with it. You have the time zone map in your head. I never have succeeded in telling anyone in my family, having anyone learning what time it is, where I am. And that implies, that also includes when I was stationed in Virginia, both in Norfolk and at the Pentagon. And I was in the same time zone as they were. They still could not remember where I was and where they were. (laughs) (02:40:21) CS: My cousin would call me. What time is it? Three o’clock in the morning, Charlie. (Shakes head.) But yes, it does, it changes your priorities too, because you can see wider patterns internationally, than a lot of people who don’t do a lot of traveling, can see. So you worry about different things. JS: Well, it makes for a pretty remarkable story. And thank you for taking the time to tell it to us. CS: Thank you. �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeifertC Title A name given to the resource Seifert, Cathy (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seifert, Cathy Description An account of the resource Cathy Seifert was born in Grand Rapids, MI in 1952. After graduating from Hope College, she entered the civil service in 1976, and then went to the Naval War College for officer training in 1978. She then served as a naval officer in various capacities until retiring in 1999. She served in Hawaii, Guam, Japan, Portugal, Norfolk, and finally at the Pentagon, serving with the Defense Intelligence Agency. She describes her different assignments in detail, and also says a good deal about life in the Navy and issues confronted by women officers during the period in which she served. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-13 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives