23
24
1541
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be63b4eb66ab790f3f1d9b59ba599369.mp4
f250b2c4fec05ce44cc0af4da7fb46a7
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d451e040cefbbe809cf7d67510edd46.pdf
3d08e964b4be08186460f12f76a89250
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Jack Valkenier
(28:10)
Born 1928 December 18th, in the Netherlands
Anne Moene Falconeer
Born 1925 August 13th
Zeeland, near Belgium
(00:00)
Childhood
- Father was a minister. (A)
- Troublesome (J)
- Describes riverine produce transportation (J)
- Graduated 12th grade in Holland, later Calvin college (A, A+J)
- Married 53 1/2 years
- Graduated college '41 '33
(13:10) Germans
- May 1940 attacked while in High School
- Worked Odd jobs during occupation and completed HS
- Battle for air superiority. Initial German troops arrived via air
- Father (A) was a preached against the Nazis, member of underground resistance
- Germans came in the middle of the night looking for father
- Boys hiding in house to avoid forced labor in Germany
- Father(J) part of resistance and hid Jews within house
- Father(J) caught by Germans sent to concentration camp
- Scarce food. Asked neighboring farmers for food
- Buried and hid valuables. Often in compost pile
(25:15) Liberation
- Canadians and Americans arrived in motorcycles and jeeps, 1945
- Gave free rides
�- Some people starved and died in the street.
- Married in Canada, 1952
(28:10)
- Drafted into Dutch Army(J), engaged in Indonesia against Japanese and Guerillas
- 1948-50, Java, arrived via sea
- Fought in rice fields, incapacitated by vitamin deficiency
- Lived in Hamilton and Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
- Decided to attend Calvin College, 1957
- Taught in parochial grade schools in Canada, returned to States in 1961
- Worked as mechanic(J) and lab worker(A)
- Employed by Grand Rapids Doctor
- Joined the masons(J) in 1982; Scottish Rite; Eastern Star; Shriner. 33 degree
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ValkenierJA
Title
A name given to the resource
Valkenier, Jack and Anne (Interview outline and video), 2005
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Valkenier, Jack
Valkenier, Anne
Description
An account of the resource
Jack and his wife Anne Valkenier are both ethnically Dutch. They describe the experiences they had during their younger years and the Nazi occupation. They describe their familial involvement in the Dutch resistance. Jack also depicts his later service in the Dutch armed forces in Southeast Asia.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2005-09-01
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2cb1840a3f0714068701b3bfa15069cd.m4v
ba7ebc3e344426bf3a930c631fc3eb05
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1706066f11a64ef74246842b31db307f.pdf
bf41fd65d91f578fc7e51644f0d80025
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Korea
John Sampson
Interview Length: (01:07:37:00)
Pre-enlistment / ROTC (00:00:39:00)
Born in Detroit, Michigan on December 29th, 1942, meaning he was a “war baby”
(00:00:39:00)
He originally went to school in Detroit but his family ended up moving to Grosse Pointe,
Michigan because their house was in the middle of newly-constructed Edsel Ford
Freeway; from Grosse Pointe, his family moved to Birmingham (00:00:48:00)
o Sampson graduated from Birmingham High School in 1961 (00:00:59:00)
He went to college at Western Michigan University where he signed up for ROTC as a
freshman because students had to either take two years of ROTC or two years of Phys.
Ed. (00:01:02:00)
o At the end of the second year, he had to decide if he wanted to commit and
become an officer; Sampson did commit to going on to the advanced program
(00:01:18:00)
Sampson’s father was drafted to go into the service but the military would not allow him
to go because he was skill-traded as a tool- and dye-maker (00:01:42:00)
o Therefore, during World War II, his father was in war production, which included
machining B-29 bomb sights (00:01:51:00)
o As it turned out, Sampson’s father-in-law flew on a B-29 bomber and flew out of
Guam on one of the last missions over Tokyo in 1945 (00:02:01:00)
Before joining the ROTC, Sampson had given some thought to joining the military
(00:02:22:00)
o However, Army ROTC was the only program at Western Michigan; there was no
Navy or Air Force programs (00:02:25:00)
o Sampson enjoyed the ROTC and decided to go on and he was the first in his
family to go into the military (00:02:31:00)
o When he made the decision to continue, Sampson’s parents were very supportive
of whatever decision he made (00:02:41:00)
o Therefore, in his junior year, Sampson decided to continue in the ROTC, knowing
full-well that in the summer of 1964, he would have to do the ROTC summer
camp at Camp Funkston at Fort Riley, Kansas (00:02:49:00)
Sampson had no idea what would happen once he completed the ROTC training; when he
went to the ROTC summer camp, meet a captain who was a signal corps officer with a
history background and having degrees in History and Political Science, Sampson
thought that would be a fit for him (00:03:16:00)
o In the spring of 1965, before he graduated, the major in charge of the ROTC unit
wanted to change Sampson to either infantry, armor, or artillery (00:03:33:00)
�
When Sampson told the major why he selected signal, the major thought it
was a good reason, so he left Sampson alone and Sampson became a
signal corps officer (00:03:41:00)
The commissioning was done at graduation in Waldo Stadium and the keynote speaker
that day was Sargent Shriver, who was head of the Peace Corps (00:03:50:00)
After graduation, Sampson decided to go to graduate school, although he did not know if
it would work (00:04:06:00)
o He went anyway and the Army gave him a three-year deferment to go on active
duty so Sampson could go to graduate school (00:04:11:00)
o Sampson checked out different schools and ended up choosing the University of
Massachusetts at Amherst for a graduate program in American History
(00:04:19:00)
During the junior year of ROTC, Sampson was taking on responsibilities as an officer in
the unit (00:04:40:00)
o At the later part of their junior year, Sampson and the other men in the unit went
to Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan for a weekend, where they did training
under senior supervision (00:04:52:00)
o In the summer, the men spent six weeks at Fort Riley with about fifteen hundred
other officers going through training; Fort Riley was the home of the summer
camp for the ROTC in the Fifth Army area out of Chicago (00:05:06:00)
The men did everything as basic infantry, including: guard duty, KP
(Kitchen Patrol) duty, went through different scenarios, group activities
where the men had to function as a group and activities where the men had
to make decisions based on past Army combat experiences (00:05:22:00)
The men also fired all the weapons and did all the things that they would
be expected to do (00:05:57:00)
It was really hot Kansas at the time; one day, at four o’clock in the
afternoon, it was one hundred and fifteen degrees in the shade
(00:06:03:00)
The men had different assignments depending on the week, based on a set
schedule (00:06:26:00)
Sampson meet people from all over the Midwest, including Nebraska and
the Dakotas; this was his first experience of what the military was really
like (00:06:34:00)
o The ROTC back at college involved the whole thing, including: instruction on
how to give presentations as an officer, marching, and classroom instruction
where the men dealt with weapons and logistics (00:07:03:00)
o The men were paid twenty-seven dollars a month as a stipend for being an
advanced ROTC (00:07:24:00)
During his senior year in ROTC, Sampson had to “double-up” in his second semester
because during his first semester, he student-taught in Allegan, Michigan (00:07:31:00)
o During the second semester, Sampson doubled-up his classes so that he could
graduate in June with his class (00:07:44:00)
Sampson never sensed the aspect of military discipline because the instructors took the
men through all the things that the enlisted men did, so the men understood about
�
cleaning the barracks, etc. and they knew what a private did; the men had a feel for the
enlistee (00:08:09:00)
o It was not that the men were better than the enlistees, it was that they understood
what the enlisted men did (00:08:33:00)
o Sampson believes one of the strong-suits of the military is they training the men
in a way that they understand how other people have to think and act
(00:08:39:00)
o Sampson does not feel that he got the standard drill instructor experience because
the officers and senior NCOs at the summer camp came from the university
settings and they understood where the men were coming from; they were not
people directly out of the field (00:08:56:00)
There was a different mindset with the instructors (00:09:22:00)
During the ROTC summer camp, the scenarios the men faced were based on previous
Army involvements from World War II and the Korean conflict (00:09:48:00)
o These were meant to show if the men were given scenarios and how they had to
react; the instructors then told the other members of the group how they were
supposed to act, which the other men did not know (00:09:57:00)
o There was a set scenario and each man was only given a select amount of
information and had to make decisions based on what they had at the time; they
never had all the information and they had to make the decisions (00:10:09:00)
o The men did the scenarios in 1964, which meant that the Vietnam conflict had not
mushroomed; there were advisors in South Vietnam, but not ground troops
(00:10:34:00)
Regular Army Training (00:11:01:00)
It only took two years for Sampson to complete his Masters, which was interesting
because the second year he moved into the graduate dorm at the university, his roommate
was an armor officer originally from Norwich University in Vermont (00:11:01:00)
o Therefore, there were two military officers in the same room on military
deferment (00:11:14:00)
When he graduated in June 1967, Sampson was given his papers to sign for his “dream
assignment” (00:11:21:00)
o Everyone had to sign up for a short tour-of-duty and at that time, there were only
two assignments on the paper, South Vietnam or South Korea; Sampson decided
he would like South Korea, although he knew nothing about it, because it was a
cold climate and he was from Michigan (00:11:31:00)
He signed up for South Korea and they told him that he would not be on active-duty until
March 1968, which meant that he had to find something to do (00:11:46:00)
o Therefore, Sampson became a temporary substitute teacher for a semester at the
sixth-grade level in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan (00:11:57:00)
o At this time, Sampson went to see his roommate from college, who was down at
Fort Campbell, Kentucky, because he wanted to know what his assignment was
(00:12:11:00)
Sampson knew that he was going to Fort Gordon, Georgia for signals
officers basic training for nine weeks and then on to Fort Monmouth, New
Jersey for signal officers communications centers operations training;
�
however, he did not know where the final base was because there was
APO for San Francisco (00:12:22:00)
The roommate checked the information out and Sampson’s assignment
was one hundred and eighty miles outside of Seoul in [Yong Ju] as a
“KMAG” officer, a job Sampson did not know about (00:12:42:00)
The roommate explained that “KMAG” stood for Korean Military
Advisory Group; Sampson was going to be an advisor for the South
Korean army (00:12:54:00)
When he made is decision about his “dream assignment”, Sampson had been so
enveloped in his graduate program that he did not look at one assignment or the other; he
just saw Korea and picked it (00:13:24:00)
o He had no feelings about Vietnam one way or the other (00:13:41:00)
o When he made his decision to go to UMass, there was not a large peace
movement on the campus; there was probably some but it did not affect the
people going to the graduate school (00:13:51:00)
Sampson served as a substitute teacher for about a couple of months, a couple of days a
week before he went onto active duty in March 1968 (00:14:24:00)
When he went on active duty, Sampson drove down to Fort Gordon, which was an all
new experience (00:14:29:00)
o Once he signed in, he lived in a barracks with the thirty-five other officers in the
class; some of the other officers were field-commissioned officers, some were in
the National Guard, and the rest were ROTC officers (00:14:41:00)
o The training lasted nine weeks; because he was a signals corps officer, Sampson
was considered a “combat-support officer”, which meant that half of the training
was infantry and the other half was communications (00:15:03:00)
o The training was everything from throwing hand grenades and firing recoilless
rifles off the back of jeeps to running a remote communications site for forty-five
hours (00:15:15:00)
o Fort Gordon was a unique experience because now the trainings was getting more
in-depth; the men went through a battlefield indoctrination course where they
would crawl on the ground over logs and barbed wire while live machine gun
rounds were fired over their heads in an effort to dissuade the men from standing
up (00:15:34:00)
o They were a class of thirty-five officers and next to them was a class of two
hundred raw recruits because there was also infantry training at Fort Gordon
(00:15:53:00)
Those were eighteen and nineteen year old kids who had no military
experience; the training was different for them as compared to Sampson’s
class because all the men in the class were college graduates
(00:16:04:00)
Mentally, Sampson was better prepared through maturity and other
experiences in life (00:16:30:00)
At that time, a number of the officers had been through law school,
which meant that there were men who had been through a large
amount of college; even the field commissioned officers had had
experience in the military (00:16:42:00)
�
A lot of the raw recruits were out of the mountains and had never
experienced those types of events (00:17:11:00)
o At that time, all of the officers in his class were white and a lot were from the
South although there were men from the North; the military tradition had a lot of
the men in the officer’s corps coming from Southern universities (00:17:33:00)
When he went into the military and was commissioned, there was not a
draft, so the men in the class came from all over the country (00:17:54:00)
The men got to the class based on education, willingness to serve and
overseas experience for the field commissioned officers (00:18:03:00)
There was not the diversity in 1968 (00:18:27:00)
However, from information that Sampson has gathered, there was more
diversity in the other parts of the army, such as infantry and armored,
because of quicker promotion (00:18:36:00)
The signal corps was a smaller operation; there were maybe two
signal corps generals and if someone wanted a military career, they
would go into a field where they would gain promotion faster
(00:18:43:00)
The military was an experience that Sampson wanted; when he started college in 1961,
he wanted to do four years of undergrad, get a masters degree, and a military commission
(00:19:09:00)
o It all played out that way but he had no thought of a military career; he liked
working with kids and wanted to be a high school teacher (00:19:24:00)
Fort Riley was a facility in which Camp Funkston was set up every summer to house the
ROTC, so there was a separate unit on the post and it was somewhat isolated
(00:19:45:00)
On the other hand, Fort Gordon was an active base; it had signal corps, MP school, civil
affairs school and some infantry training, so there was a different make up of the base
(00:20:04:00)
o At Fort Gordon, the facilities were barracks and nothing was air-conditioned; still,
the men learned to live with it and Sampson found the base very adequate for his
needs (00:20:25:00)
Following Fort Gordon, Sampson was going on to advanced training, although not all the
officers in the class were advancing to the next school; some were going to duty
assignments right away (00:20:57:00)
o Sampson went on to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, just outside of New York City,
where he went through communications operations center training; the training
was basically in the classroom because there is no pistol or rifle range at the base
(00:21:09:00)
o Some of the training was also working in classified, i.e. working with crypto
equipment; the men were locked in a vault room working with classified material
and special equipment (00:21:30:00)
Out of the thirty-five officer in the class at Fort Gordon, thirty were assigned Stateside
and then short-tour, which meant that they would be going to Vietnam; for the remaining
five, two went to Korea, one went to Panama, one went to Thailand and the final one
went to Germany (00:21:50:00)
�
Sampson trained to run a communications operations center, which included long-line
(telephone), satellite communication, dealing with classified information and
broadcasting; there was a range of types of communication and the objective was to run
the center, which was what Sampson was training for at Fort Monmouth (00:22:30:00)
o At the time, Sampson had been promoted to first lieutenant (00:23:06:00)
When he was at Fort Gordon, Sampson would go into Augusta, Georgia (00:23:24:00)
o Augusta was the home of the Masters’ golf tournament, so he drove past to golf
course to see what it looked like and he would go to church on Sundays; he could
get off the post and was not restricted (00:23:23:00)
o One unique situation at Fort Gordon was one night, when the men went to bed,
the next day, thirty officers were gone; the Army had shipped out (00:23:45:00)
The men were at the base when Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated
and because of the tension in the country, the Army shipped out the
officers to another part of the country (00:23:51:00)
This made the men realize they could be shipped out at any time
(00:24:05:00)
While at Fort Monmouth, the men had to live off-post because they did not have enough
housing for all the officers going through training (00:24:13:00)
o Sampson lived in Freehold, New Jersey, about a half an hour drive west of the
base, where he lived with three other officers; the four officers commuted every
day to the base and were off-duty every weekend (00:24:21:00)
o Sampson only went into New York City once; he had to get some information
because he know that he was going to Korea and he wanted to pick up some
books about Korean culture and language (00:24:48:00)
The military at that time, even though Sampson was going to be a KMAG
officer, did not give him a lot of information (00:25:03:00)
o While he was at the base, Sampson had to have his KMAG patches sewed onto
his uniforms, so he went to a lady who did that who worked just outside the base;
she had never seen the KMAG patch, a bell-shape with the work “KMAG”
underneath (00:25:15:00)
o Being a KMAG officer meant that Sampson had to get a passport, so he got a
quasi-diplomatic passport that did not cost him anything; he had a red government
passport which gave him quasi-diplomatic immunity (00:25:38:00)
Deployment (00:26:05:00)
Once finished at Fort Monmouth, Sampson was supposed to ship overseas by flying out
of Fort Lewis, Washington and McCord Air Force Base (00:26:05:00)
o He left Birmingham, Michigan, flew to Seattle, and got to the post; however he
could not fly out the next day because for some reason, the government had sent
his passport to Oakland (00:26:18:00)
o They had to ship the passport from Oakland up to Seattle because Sampson
needed it for going overseas; he had another day or two in Seattle, which he used
to take the bus to downtown Seattle (00:26:33:00)
o When he shipped out with his passport, Sampson went on a contracted Northwest
Orient Airlines plane with probably one hundred and sixty other servicemen; the
officers boarded the plane first and got off the plane first (00:26:50:00)
�
They flew first to Tokyo, Japan, where they refueled, and then flew to Seoul and Kimpo
Air Force Base, which was where the Seoul International Airport is (00:27:09:00)
o Sampson had no pre-conceived notions of Korea and no thoughts one way or the
other; This was his first experience being in Asia and being out of the country,
outside of going to Canada (00:27:39:00)
After landing, they took the men to the processing center and because Sampson had his
KMAG patches on, a sergeant in the KMAG detachment in Seoul saw him and brought
him into Seoul to find out where his duty was (00:28:01:00)
o This was when Sampson found out that his assignment changed; He was now
assigned to Eighth Army G4 because his slot was filled by a classmate who got
into Korea before Sampson (00:28:14:00)
o Sampson had to put in a bid for a room and because his rank was a captain, he
ended up being in a dormitory in the Young Song compound, the home of Eighth
Army, right next to Seoul American High School (00:29:19:00)
It was a brick dormitory just like any on a university and it was where
Sampson lived for the next thirteen and a half months (00:29:38:00)
Each man had his own room with a group shower and bathroom area;
there was also a Korean woman that cleaned his room every day
(00:29:47:00)
He paid her so many won (the local currency) per month but he
had to buy the soap and whatnot (00:30:03:00)
o Sampson found out that he was in electronics and communication G4, which was
commanded by a general (00:30:22:00)
The commander of logistics was a quartermaster colonel named James
Bond (00:30:33:00)
Sampson worked in a office with a lieutenant colonel, two civilians, and a
Korean secretary (00:30:57:00)
Near the end of his tour, they needed someone to replace another soldier in an office
down the hallway, so Sampson became head of an office and he had a sergeant working
as a clerk and they dealt with excess supplies out of Vietnam (00:31:14:00)
The military was shipping one million dollars in excess supplies from
South Vietnam up to South Korea for the 2nd [Battalion] of the 7th Infantry
[Regiment] (00:31:32:00)
During his first job, Sampson was looking at the flow charts of equipment and if there
was anything suspicious (00:31:55:00)
One time, Sampson was at a meeting on the other side of Korea and had to come back to
the post because he had to go out to depot command and get radios for the South Korean
Army; the North Koreans had just come down the east coast in Spring 1968
(00:32:03:00)
o The North and South Koreans got into a firefight and Sampson had to go and get
radio to send out to the South Korean forces (00:32:28:00)
o The men were not supposed to be out after midnight because of the philosophy
that one shot first and asked questions later; Sampson was a little nervous about
doing the job, but it was part of the military, so he did it (00:32:37:00)
At the time, South Korea was almost like a dictatorship; Park Chung Hee was president
and the government was very stringent and military controlled (00:33:13:00)
�
o The country was still picking itself up economically but the democracy that the
United States envisioned was not yet existent (00:33:30:00)
While he was in Korea, there were two divisions at the DMZ as part of I Corps and today,
it is still one of the most fortified areas in the world (00:33:39:00)
o There were a lot of concern because in Christmas 1968, the Pueblo crew came
over the “bridge of no return” from the North (00:34:07:00)
o There was shooting at the DMZ but a lot of people did not know about it; the
average loss was one soldier per day (00:34:39:00)
One time, Sampson was next to a captain who was on the DMZ and he
had lost four soldiers during his tour (00:34:49:00)
o The deaths usually did not come from North Korean infiltrations but exfiltrations
as the North Koreans tried to return to the North; the soldiers were looking North
and being shot in the back (00:34:59:00)
o They considered it a live-combat area and the soldiers on the DMZ received
combat pay just as if they were in Vietnam (00:35:12:00)
In March 1969, Sampson had gone to Hong Kong on vacation in which he had planned to
learn more about Asia when the North Koreans shot down a Navy reconnaissance plane
over North Korea (00:35:44:00)
o The Army called Sampson back to Korea, canceling the vacation, and the men
went into shifts of twelve hours on and twelve hours off (00:36:01:00)
o Sampson called his parents from Japan at a time when it took half an hour to
make a call just to reassure them; all they knew was that the men had gone onto
high alert (00:36:33:00)
o There is no natural barrier between the DMZ and Seoul, so if the North Koreans
came down, then they were going to go straight through Seoul (00:36:38:00)
The base had KATUSAs, Korean soldiers attached to the U.S. Army, and Sampson dealt
with them (00:36:59:00)
He did not have a lot of contact with different commands in the Korean Army; the only
real contact he had with Koreans was when he worked at the YMCA, which was where
the English club of Korean college students met (00:37:11:00)
o There were about thirty-five students, the upper level of Korean students, and he
got to know them and they would invite him into their homes, to the university
and on outings (00:37:35:00)
o The students did not talk a lot about politics; with the structure of government in
the country, the students’ goals were to learn more English, which gave them a
tool (00:38:10:00)
o Sampson learned that Seoul was the political and religious capital of the country
and people would go there for economic reasons; however, if someone learned
English, then they could leave (00:38:31:00)
The objective was to go from the country to the capital to overseas and
whether someone learned French or English did not matter (00:38:43:00)
o The Korean students knew what they were looking at and they did things to
protect their family; the family was the basic social structure and they never did
anything to ruin the image of the family (00:39:06:00)
Seoul American High School was a typical 1950’s / 60’s high school (00:39:34:00)
�
o A number of officers and civilians were stationed in Seoul for two years and when
someone had to live in Seoul for two years, they could bring their families with
them; these were the kids that went to the high school (00:39:44:00)
o At one time, the dorm that Sampson lived in was used to house the students
whose parents were stationed at Kunsan, south of Seoul; eventually, the Army
built a school in Kunsan so the students did not have to commute (00:39:57:00)
o Sampson did not have any contact with the American students (00:40:24:00)
One time, Sampson went with the Korean college students on a picnic to the mountains
(00:40:36:00)
o Other times, he went to the university for a play, to the home of a professor for a
formal dinner, and a James Bond movie which was in English with Korean
subtitles (00:46:45:00)
o The Korean language was interesting because it used a different alphabet from
Chinese or Japanese, which meant different characters (00:41:05:00)
o Sampson learned a little Korean, enough to use the local transportation so that he
could go to downtown Korea (00:41:15:00)
He was lucky because he is a Christian Scientist and there was a Christian
Scientist Church in downtown Seoul, so he went to services conducted by
a Korean and an Englishwoman (00:41:30:00)
o Sampson got out and did not stay just on the base; he also took some USO tours,
including going to a plastic flower factory and a car factory (00:41:58:00)
o He also took a course from the University of Maryland; the University had an
extension program in Korea with American professors and Sampson took a class
about Asian culture (00:42:21:00)
Sampson did not notice the damages from the Korean War but he did notice the use of
manpower; he would see Koreans walking down the street with an A-frame on their back
and a stack of materials fifteen feet high (00:42:56:00)
Sampson took a lot of pictures during his tour and he learned that photography was
something that eventually became normal for him to do (00:43:32:00)
For his trip to Hong Kong, he flew down on SAS (Scandinavian Airways) (00:43:58:00)
o When he went to the airport for the flight, the plane was sitting down in Taegu,
which meant that the flight did not leave on time; there was fog and the planes
would not fly up near the DMZ (00:44:13:00)
So, they left late and it rained during the entire flight; they landed at
Taipei to refuel and then went into Hong Kong (00:44:28:00)
o Sampson stayed on Kowloon and while he was there, he signed up for some tours;
he did a small bus tour of Hong Kong island, went to a pier to purchase goods,
etc. (00:44:34:00)
o At that time, Hong Kong was still a British colony and Sampson went to the
British PX to buy souvenirs (00:45:06:00)
o He enjoyed the trip and just wished that he could have gone back when the
weather was nicer (00:45:26:00)
o For the trip, Sampson worked with a lady who worked for the travel bureaus and
she helped set up the trip and rescheduled his trip to Japan (00:45:46:00)
�
Sampson had no idea what to do because it was both his first time out of
the country and his first time in Asia; he just wanted to see the country
(00:46:12:00)
Sampson’s trip to Japan was rescheduled to June and he flew from Seoul into Fukuoka;
he stayed there and eventually went over to Beppo by commuter train (00:46:40:00)
o Sampson was with JTB (Japanese Travel Bureau) and they helped him to get in
and out of different tours (00:47:01:00)
o He hooked up with the tour on Beppo and did some things there before taking a
cruise up to Kobe; the tour eventually bused over to Kyoto, the religious capital of
Japan, and they had a tour there as well (00:47:14:00)
o From Kyoto, he took the bullet train to Tokyo, where his travel agent had set up a
hotel; on different days, he had free time which he used to purchase more
souvenirs, which he sent back to Korea, and went to several different places on
tours (00:47:45:00)
While in Tokyo, he went to a show similar to the Rockettes (00:48:44:00)
Sampson maximized his time and really felt that he got a lot out of the trip
(00:48:57:00)
o All the souvenirs were sent back to Korea because whenever he left the country,
all his stuff shipped to the United States duty-free; if he shipped them, then he
would have had to pay money (00:49:08:00)
There were sixty-five thousand troops stationed in Korea while Sampson was there and
there was no thought of shipping any of them to Vietnam because Korea was also
considered a hardship tour (00:49:35:00)
o They would send soldiers from Vietnam to Korea for recuperation but never from
Korea to Vietnam (00:49:50:00)
Korea was unique because the was also a UN command next to where Sampson was
stationed; this meant that there was a UN officer that Sampson interacted with
(00:50:12:00)
Sampson was not really following the Vietnam conflict apart from the Stars and Stripes
newspaper (00:50:33:00)
o He gained news from home through letters because there were no telephones or email (00:50:41:00)
o Sampson was more worried about North Korea (00:50:56:00)
They went of field exercises, including moving the entire command south, which they did
once (00:51:03:00)
o Sampson did not always understand the protocol; he was learning as he went
along (00:51:23:00)
o They gave him a book with all the procedures he had to do as an officer but the
other stuff he just learned as he went along (00:51:36:00)
Sampson really enjoyed working with the Korean college students and he also bought a
few books on Korean history and read them, which was nice (00:52:07:00)
One event that stands out was in August 1969, they had reopened tour guides to
Panmunjom and Sampson had the opportunity to sign up; the tour was on a Sunday and
he had to go in uniform (00:52:17:00)
�
o Panmunjom was in North Korea, so the tour went through checkpoints and they
went to see where the armistice halting the Korean conflict was signed
(00:52:37:00)
o It was still an armed conflict because there was never a peace treaty
(00:53:03:00)
o Being on the grounds of North Korea and where an armistice was very special
because not everyone had ever been in the situation (00:53:12:00)
Around Christmas time, Sampson was able to do something that officers normal did not
get to do, he watched to a Bob Hope show on the television (00:53:37:00)
Return to the United States / Post-Military Life (00:54:04:00)
Sampson was supposed to leave Korea in the middle of September but his replacement
had not arrived (00:54:04:00)
o They asked him if he would extend his time for a couple of weeks and Sampson
said sure because he had no commitments back in the United States; his next tour
of duty involved a choice by him as where he wanted to go, either Fort Huachuca
in Arizona or back to Fort Monmouth and he chose Fort Monmouth
(00:54:18:00)
o He knew Fort Monmouth and he enjoyed being on the east coast (00:54:40:00)
During June, the Army asked Sampson if he would extend his tour for ninety days and be
promoted; he was going to get out in March 1970 but as a school teacher, March was not
a good time to get out, so Sampson said “sure” (00:54:53:00)
o Because he was going to be in the service for another year, Sampson was
promoted to captain (00:55:17:00)
While in Korea, Sampson was also the United Way collector of funds for the G4
(00:55:30:00)
o When he was asking for donations, Sampson met a sergeant who had been
stationed at a Nike missile base in Grosse Pointe Farms, Michigan during the
1950’s, only a mile away from where Sampson lived for five years (00:55:48:00)
o It was a unique situation to talk to someone who had been stationed near where
Sampson had lived (00:56:14:00)
He finally shipped out from Korea in October along with seven crates and a steamer
trunk of stuff (00:56:26:00)
o All the other stuff was sent to Selfridge Air Force Base in Mt. Clemens, Michigan
and it was trucked over to his home in Birmingham (00:56:41:00)
Sampson was not at home when it arrived and his father wondered what
he had been doing (00:56:50:00)
o He had gone on to his new station at Fort Monmouth and he wanted to teach at
the school but he did not have enough time left, so they made him the S4 of the
signal brigade, the logistics officer, which was an interesting job (00:56:55:00)
o This was the time when things were dicey with the public because of the situation
in Vietnam; the men were cautioned as to where they should wear their uniforms
(00:57:32:00)
o When he flew out of Korea in October, Sampson left at 10:30 in the morning,
local time, and arrived back in the United States at 5:30 in the morning on the
same day (00:58:56:00)
�
From Seattle, he got on a plane and flew back to Michigan and arrived at
6:30 in the morning, again, on the same day (00:58:24:00)
He had flown across the International Date Line; going to Korea, he lost a
day and coming back, he stayed on the same day (00:58:31:00)
There were a lot of protests going on at the time and the men did not know what the
statuses were of the different officers on the base (00:58:45:00)
o Sampson did not have any feeling about the protestors because he was about the
business he was in; being an officer meant that he was volunteer (00:59:20:00)
Because he was an officer, when the draft did occur in the 1960s, his draft
number was eighteen; if he was not an officer, he was going to be in the
service (00:59:29:00)
o Unbeknownst to him when he was getting out, Sampson had been an officer for
five years and he still had a year of service but he did not have to go to meetings
(00:59:52:00)
His commitment of active duty ended in June 1970 (01:00:04:00)
o The typical commitment for an officer is six years, so when they counted time in
grade and Sampson went on active duty in March 1968, he had been an officer for
two years and nine months (01:00:22:00)
The officers had to either be three years reserve time or eighteen months
of active duty to be promoted from their first grade to their second grade;
Sampson went from 2nd Lieutenant to 1st Lieutenant in June 1968 and then
to captain in September 1969 (01:00:38:00)
If he wanted to do field grade to major, then Sampson would have had to
go to career school, which included either having to go to ranger school or
jump school; Sampson had no desire to do either one because if he stayed,
then he would have to become a regular officer, not a reserve officer
(01:00:54:00)
o Three years after he got out of the service, when the Vietnam conflict ended, the
Army let go of nine thousand officers and at that time, the men did not receive
any type of pension from the military unless they had twenty-four years of service
(01:01:16:00)
Sampson checked out of the military when he wanted to (01:01:46:00)
o He was working at a summer camp at the time and he briefly looked at going into
military intelligence; it would have been a summer camp and then once a month
and was based out of Detroit because Sampson was teaching at Bloomfield Hills
at the time (01:01:55:00)
o He waited but eventually decided to go for a second masters because he could not
become a school administrator without a Masters degree in administration
(01:12:15:00)
Sampson taught at Bloomfield Hills for five years while doing an administrative
internship; he got a Masters in administration from Wayne State University and after he
had the degree, he was in the position to look for an administrative job (01:02:43:00)
o He eventually got a job as an administrator at East Kentwood High School, where
he spent the next twenty-seven as an administrator (01:02:58:00)
�
o When he moved to take the job in 1975, Sampson decided to go for a PhD in
school administration, which he got from the University of Michigan after four
years (01:03:08:00)
His specialty was facility planning, how to renovate and build facilities
and he believes some of this came from his training in logistics
(01:03:23:00)
o He enjoyed the job and working the engineers and architects (01:03:31:00)
o The total cost of his higher education was five hundred dollars for his PhD
because the GI Bill paid for everything else (01:03:42:00)
Because of his upbringing and the work ethic that his parents instilled in him and his two
sisters, the military showed him a certain type of structure and things that he wanted to do
and things he did not want to do (01:04:29:00)
o He felt that he had to give his best every day, no matter the situation was
(01:04:49:00)
o The training also taught him about computers which helped him get the job at
East Kentwood; at the time, they were going to computerized scheduling and
there were not a lot of people around who had any knowledge of computers at all
(01:05:04:00)
Sampson taught in what he considers two of the best school systems; both Bloomfield
Hills and East Kentwood were outstanding (01:05:45:00)
Being over in Korea did a couple of things for Sampson (01:06:03:00)
o First, it made him realize how hard people work to move forward (01:06:07:00)
o Second, he learned it was not whether he was right or wrong, it was just that
things were different over there (01:06:16:00)
o He also learned about a culture that was totally different from western culture,
such as how they communicate and relate to each other (01:06:30:00)
The opportunities that someone gets out of the service comes from how much they want
to give; a person can make it a great experience no matter where they are or they can
make it a disheartening experience (01:07:02:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SampsonJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Sampson, John (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sampson, John
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Detroit, Michigan in 1942, John Sampson joined the ROTC while at Western Michigan University. Following graduation from Western Michigan and graduate school at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, Sampson went through signal corps training at Fort Gordon, Georgia and Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. After completing his training, he shipped out to Korea, where he served in the G4 for Eighth Army, working with both the Korean and US military. Following his tour in Korea, Sampson returned to Fort Monmouth and served until March 1970.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-10-28
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/299409470e911ab0e443dfaff83ab24b.m4v
00c04b44418a97a9669657d751674274
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b97df8ab4324a1d97bc113c12eec2649.pdf
74e2e97f9a3d6d776295f950089622eb
PDF Text
Text
Interview Notes
Interview Length (8:13)
David Wyma
US Navy
Pre-Enlistment
Born in South Korea in 1963 (0:15)
Adopted by an American soldier and his wife (0:20)
Enlisted in the Navy the summer after high school (0:30)
Father, 3 brothers and sister have served in the military (0:45)
Went to the Navy because the Air Force recruiter never showed up (1:15)
Training
Boot camp was enjoyable (1:30)
Competition between different companies in different areas (1:45)
Good physical training (2:25)
Not hard to adjust to physical training (2:35)
Enlistment
Served in Norfolk, Virginia, for 3 years, then Iceland for 2 years (3:00)
Flew to Iceland via Iceland Air (3:25)
Stayed in touch with family through phone and mail (4:15)
Had many opportunities for recreation (4:35)
Flew home via commercial airliner (5:25)
Post-Enlistment
Formed several friendships while in Iceland (3:50)
Had no problems adjusting to civilian life (5:40)
College began several weeks after he got out of the military (5:50)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WymaD
Title
A name given to the resource
Wyma, David (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wyma, David
Description
An account of the resource
David Wyma was born in 1963 in South Korea. After high school, David enlisted in the US Navy. He served 3 years in Norfolk, Virginia and 2 years in Iceland.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Wright, Chelsea (Interviewer)
Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-06-01
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fae593a2da2fbb7ca50fadd1af553bac.mp4
0d6d1736690d93030db0a5c8d90d225d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d8f37e7b70682b8a58b225a2fa14164.pdf
dccdd4a594971b6394da0f3d16750acb
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Vietnam War
James Wykstra
Interview Length: (01:32:05:00)
Pre-enlistment Life / Training (00:00:09:00)
Born in Cutlerville, Michigan in 1947 (00:00:09:00)
Growing up, Wykstra attended Cutlerville Christian School and South Christian High
School and after graduating, decided to attend community college at Grand Rapids Junior
College (00:00:20:00)
Wykstra attended junior college for a year and was not doing great and when it looked
like he was going to get drafted, he went and enlisted in the Navy Reserves (00:00:45:00)
Growing up, Wykstra mother stayed at home and his father worked at a hospital
(00:01:02:00)
o There were five children in the family and Wykstra was right in the middle; he
had an older brother and sister and a younger brother and sister (00:01:10:00)
When he enlisted, Wykstra knew the Vietnam War was going on and figured that he had
a duty to enlist and serve in the military (00:01:42:00)
Wykstra finally enlisted in August 1966 (00:01:52:00)
o He selected the Navy because he did not want to crawl around in the mud and he
wanted nice meals and a good bed to sleep in (00:02:01:00)
While growing up, a friend of Wykstra had a speed boat and Wykstra had a hydroplane,
so he had some experience on the water before he joined the Navy (00:02:20:00)
Basic training was two weeks at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Chicago and
then two weeks aboard a ship in Chicago (00:02:52:00)
Before he left for basic training, Wykstra wanted no one in his family to know that he
was leaving (00:03:11:00)
o Wykstra had a little party the night before he left and the next morning, he
accidentally slept through his alarm, consequently, missing his bus to Chicago,
and woke up when his mother called him to go to church (00:03:16:00)
o Wykstra’s brother had just bought a new Mustang and he drove Wykstra to
Holland, Michigan, where Wykstra was able to catch the bus (00:03:45:00)
o Wykstra finally told his family he was joining the Navy that morning and
naturally, they were a little upset that Wykstra had not tell them earlier
(00:04:04:00)
o He chose not to tell his family because he viewed it that they did not need to
know and because he was only going be gone for a month, it was not a very big
deal (00:04:24:00)
The training at Great Lakes for Wykstra was strictly for the Navy Reserves (00:04:35:00)
o The basic training went well and when Wykstra boarded the ship, he had to get
tours of it to orient himself aboard it (00:04:40:00)
�
o Some of the other men who came aboard the ship with Wykstra had already been
in the Navy and they explained different things to him and helped ease the process
for him (00:05:04:00)
o The ship was a smaller one and the men were supposed to sail it to near
Muskegon, Michigan to fire its guns; however, when the ship left port in Chicago
and made it past the barriers, it had to turn around because Lake Michigan was
too rough (00:05:21:00)
o During the training, Wykstra does not recall how much emphasis they placed on
discipline, although it was something that he always had trouble with
(00:06:01:00)
After completing the four weeks of training, Wykstra went back home and continued
going to the Reserve meetings (00:06:27:00)
o Eventually, he asked if he could go into active duty early or would he have to
complete the year of Navy Reserve first (00:06:37:00)
o They said Wykstra could get in early and he told them that the end of May,
beginning of June would work for him; however, when the middle of June came,
Wykstra still had not been called (00:06:46:00)
The Navy eventually wanted to know if Wykstra had gotten some girl
pregnant and that was why he wanted to leave early but he explained that
he just wanted to get the year done and over with (00:07:04:00)
o When the Navy told him they would get him on active duty right away, Wykstra
asked for a couple of weeks off from his work before he left, so at the end of June,
he basically quit work (00:07:16:00)
He was kicked out of the apartment he living in, so Wykstra took the next
month’s rent, bought a tent and lived on the beach (00:07:41:00)
o However, after about three weeks, Wykstra still was not in the Navy, so he went
back to his old job and asked to come back to work at a print shop (00:07:53:00)
o Wykstra only went back to work for a couple of weeks before the Navy placed
him on active duty (00:08:08:00)
Deployment (00:08:23:00)
Once Wykstra was on active duty, the Navy sent him to San Francisco (00:08:23:00)
o While Wykstra was in transit waiting to be assigned in late August, someone
woke him at four in the morning, said his father had died and Wykstra was going
home on emergency leave (00:08:31:00)
When Wykstra went down to get his orders allowing him to go home, the
man said he thought Wykstra was lying, which caused Wykstra to jump
across the desk and started beating the man (00:08:57:00)
Wykstra had to go talk with the commanding officer but he did his orders
and flew back to Grand Rapids for fifteen days (00:09:23:00)
o After the fifteen days, Wykstra flew back to San Francisco and stayed there for
another week or two before the Navy flew him to the Philippines (00:09:45:00)
While waiting for his ship, the U.S.S. Davidson, in the Philippines, Wykstra went into a
nearby town to drink (00:10:10:00)
�
o One time when he went into the town, a dog bit Wykstra in the back of his calf
and Wykstra asked the owners to tie to dog up for ten days to make sure it did not
have rabies (00:10:32:00)
o In those ten days, the Davidson had unfortunately already come in and left but
after the ten days, Wykstra checked and the dog did not have rabies (00:11:10:00)
The Navy eventually flew Wykstra to Japan to board the Davidson (00:11:46:00)
o When he got to Japan, Wykstra checked in on the base and was given bedding and
told where to go spend the night; however, as he left, they called his name for him
to come back and when he did so, they told him the Davidson was pulling out in
two hours and he needed to get aboard (00:11:51:00)
The Davidson was a destroyer escort, meaning it was a small ship, only about a football
field in length (00:12:35:00)
o The ship was armed with depth charges, missiles, two 5 inch guns and torpedo
tubes (00:12:41:00)
o Different departments on the ship had different sleeping areas (00:13:09:00)
o The ship had just been commissioned in 1965, which meant it had air
conditioning and other modern amenities (00:13:17:00)
Wykstra was put with the deck crew when he first got onboard, which consisted of:
painting, sweeping, cleaning and washing walls (00:13:49:00)
At one point, a weapons yeoman was leaving the ship and Wykstra and another man
applied for the job (00:14:19:00)
o While he was home on his emergency leave, Wykstra met a girl who happened to
be from the hometown of the weapons yeoman who was leaving, they knew each
other, and the yeoman allowed Wykstra to take the typing test three or four times
(00:14:44:00)
On the typing test, Wykstra had to type thirty-five words a minute and
every mistake was a deduction of ten words (00:15:01:00)
o Wykstra took the test three times before he finally passed it and he does not know
how the other man faired but he ended up getting the job (00:15:09:00)
As a weapons yeoman, Wykstra would type up the orders of the day, what duties the men
were supposed to do that day, and any weapon reports, which were logs of how many
shells had been fired, etc. (00:15:30:00)
o Once he had typed up the weapon reports, a lieutenant would read it, make some
slight changes, have Wykstra retype it and then would give it to his superior, who
would make other changes (00:16:04:00)
o There were no computers and would end up having the type the same report or
document around eight times at least because everyone in the chain of command
would make changes to a report (00:16:18:00)
o When they pulled into ports, Wykstra missed liberty time finishing the reports
(00:16:47:00)
o There was always something for Wykstra to type (00:17:08:00)
When he first got aboard the ship, Wykstra was told who he would report to and who
would be giving him orders (00:17:38:00)
o There was not much of an introduction or orientation (00:17:43:00)
�
o One time, while on the deck crew, one man was painting a yardarm and asked
Wykstra if he saw any holidays; not knowing what that meant, Wykstra told him
that he did not see any (00:17:49:00)
When the man came down, he yelled at Wykstra for telling him there were
no holidays, spots where he had missed, when there were (00:18:14:00)
There were a few men on the deck crew that Wykstra fell in with and got along well with
(00:18:42:00)
o After he became yeoman, Wykstra had his own little office on the ship and in
Japan, he bought turntables, speakers, and recording equipment so that when they
were at sea, they could listen to music, mainly rock and roll records (00:18:48:00)
o When they pulled into port at Formosa, the records were a dime an album and the
men came to Wykstra to play them (00:19:33:00)
Wykstra got onto the Davidson in October 1967 (00:20:13:00)
The Davidson’s home port was in Hawaii, so after Wykstra boarded in Japan, they sailed
back to Hawaii (00:20:24:00)
Wykstra did not have any major problems adjusting to life at sea even though when the
Davidson left Japan, the seas were quite rough (00:20:52:00)
o Wykstra only got seasick twice: when the Davidson first left Japan for Hawaii and
another time in rough seas, also near Japan (00:21:02:00)
The second time he got seasick, Wykstra was at the helm of the ship when
a man on the lean helm said he needed a bucket; a messenger got a bucket
and the man threw up in the bucket (00:21:21:00)
The messenger emptied the bucket and when he brought it back,
the man working the status board asked for the bucket and ended
throwing up in it (00:21:59:00)
The pilothouse was beginning to smell like vomit and the
lieutenant in charge of the pilothouse asked Wykstra if any of that
bothered him and Wykstra said “not yet sir” (00:22:11:00)
The lieutenant then lit a cigar and blew it in Wykstra’s face,
causing him to vomit (00:22:28:00)
o When the ship was in rough seas, Wykstra did not worry about it capsizing
(00:23:01:00)
One time, a cook had just made fresh donuts when the seas were rough
and he came up to the pilothouse to see if he could bring up some of the
crew (00:23:06:00)
The men held onto ropes during rough seas and the cook accidentally let
go of the rope and slid, head first, into a steel footrest and split his head
open (00:23:28:00)
When the Davidson arrived in Hawaii, Wykstra was able to go ashore (00:24:03:00)
o Although the ship was only a couple of years old, it had to go into dry-dock
because one of the boilers was not working properly (00:24:17:00)
They ended up cutting a hole in the side of the ship so they could put in a
new boiler (00:24:27:00)
o Because of the sheer size of the repair, the men were in Hawaii for quite a long
time, all the way until August (00:24:35:00)
�
However, even while the ship was in dry-dock, the men stayed aboard it,
instead of in barracks on land (00:24:51:00)
o A friend of Wykstra from high school was in Hawaii at the same time, so the two
met up and went out to drink several times (00:24:56:00)
One time, one of the men went ashore, got extremely drunk, and when he
returned to the ship, got the keys for the gun locker room; the man
unloaded guns and ammunition, went on the deck, and began firing them
before taking off (00:25:23:00)
Shore patrol went looking for him while shining large spotlights and
Wykstra friend, who was part of the Shore Patrol, commented on how
stupid it was; the Shore Patrol was looking for the man with spotlights but
if he wanted to, he would shoot them (00:26:12:00)
They finally caught the man and the others never saw him again
(00:26:34:00)
Once the repairs on the ship were finished, the ship left Hawaii and sailed to several other
locations but Wykstra does not remember them all (00:27:14:00)
o The ship would spend thirty days sailing off the coast of Vietnam then a week at
some other location, such as Bangkok, Hong Kong, Japan, the Philippines, etc.
(00:27:21:00)
When the ship was sailing off the coast of Vietnam, the men had their regular job but
they also worked in a secondary, combat role; the men would normally go six hours on,
six hours off for their primary job (00:28:01:00)
o Sometimes, Wykstra worked in the fire control room for the ship’s guns relaying
orders between the lieutenant stationed in the fire control room and the gun
mounts, everything from where to fire to how much to fire (00:28:35:00)
o Other times, Wykstra worked in the pilothouse while the ship was off the
Vietnamese coast (00:28:51:00)
o The ship ended up firing a lot of ammunition onto the shore but as far as Wykstra
knows, while in Vietnam, the ship never received any return fire (00:29:10:00)
There were times when the ship had to sail from one location to another
quickly past small Vietnamese boats; the men did not know if the boats
could possibly be filled with explosives, so they did not slow down for
them (00:29:21:00)
If a boat got in the way, the ship kept going (00:29:40:00)
At one point, the ship received orders that it had to sail for Korea as fast as it could get
there (00:29:59:00)
o When the ship arrived, the sonar picked up a submarine; the men told the
submarine to identify itself and surface but it did not (00:30:06:00)
o The ship followed the submarine for eight days before it finally surfaced and
revealed itself to be a Russian submarine (00:30:16:00)
o When the submarine surfaced, the men took pictures of it and the Davidson ended
up escorting it out of the area (00:30:33:00)
They ended up confiscating all the film taken of the submarine and the
next day, Wykstra looked out and saw a torpedo floating in the water
(00:30:41:00)
�
When divers went to get the torpedo, there were snakes in the
water, so sharpshooters were posted before the divers tried again
(00:31:00:00)
Once they got the torpedo aboard, it was placed in the hanger bay, covered
with a tarp and again, everyone’s film was confiscated (00:31:20:00)
o At the time, the men did not know why they were ordered to Korea; all they knew
was that there was trouble near Korea (00:32:06:00)
The men did not know much about what was going on onshore in Vietnam; the
commander would get the orders and the men would follow them (00:32:27:00)
o One time, the ship pulled into the naval base at Cam Ranh Bay and the
commander and XO went ashore while the ship remained anchored in the bay;
when they came back, the two men said the ship was going to pull its anchor and
leave the next (00:32:38:00)
However, the next day, the men could not raise the anchor and after trying
several different ways to raise the anchor, they finally ended up cutting it
off and leaving it in the bay (00:32:57:00)
o When Wykstra worked in the fire control room, the lieutenant in charge of firing
the guns would receive an order, then tell Wykstra what adjustments needed to be
made, and Wykstra would relay the information to the gun crews (00:33:24:00)
o One time, the men heard two secondary explosions when they fired the guns,
which made them happy, but for the most part, they did not know what their
targets were or whether they had hit them (00:33:44:00)
o When it was firing, the ship normally worked alone (00:34:06:00)
However, the Davidson was also attached to the U.S.S. Hornet, and
aircraft carrier, and at any one time, there was between four and seven
destroyer escorts and other ships with the Hornet (00:34:11:00)
Aboard the U.S.S. Hornet (00:34:55:00)
At one point, Wykstra did go aboard the aircraft carrier Hornet (00:34:55:00)
o Wykstra was having trouble swallowing, so he went and saw the corpsman, who
told him it was no big deal and to wait until the ship got into port, then the
corpsman would send him to set a doctor (00:35:01:00)
o It got so bad that Wykstra went back to the corpsman and explained that it was
difficult to talk and he could not longer even swallow water (00:35:20:00)
o The aircraft carrier sent over a helicopter, picked Wykstra up, and took him back
to the aircraft carrier, where doctor diagnosed the problem as a wisdom tooth
(00:35:27:00)
The dentist said they needed to pull the tooth, but they had trouble pulling
it because as it turned out, the tooth was hooked around Wykstra’s
jawbone (00:35:59:00)
They ended up breaking the tooth apart and taking it out in pieces; once
they finished, they took x-rays again, found more pieces, and took those
pieces out as well (00:36:12:00)
They had given Wykstra a lot of pain killers and he stayed in the dentist’s
office for a long time (00:36:24:00)
�
o Wykstra wanted to get back to the Davidson and kept complain when the dentist
staff would not let him because of the amount of painkillers they used; finally, a
messenger came down and brought Wykstra up to the pilot house, where he asked
permission from the commander to fly back to the Davidson (00:36:32:00)
The commander checked and told Wykstra that by the time they got a
helicopter ready, it would be sunset and they could not transfer personnel
after sunset (00:37:15:00)
The commander had the men get Wykstra a bunk and told him to come
back the next morning (00:37:36:00)
o The next morning, Wykstra again asked permission to return to the Davidson but
the commander said he could not; when Wykstra why, the commander explained
that the Davidson had sailed for Formosa and the Hornet was sailing to the
Philippines (00:37:46:00)
The Hornet ended up staying in the Philippines for a week and because it was an aircraft
carrier, there were a lot of benefits for the men (00:38:17:00)
o Everyday, the men were able to grill hot dogs and hamburgers, they had boats
they used to go water skiing, there were women around, etc. (00:38:29:00)
o In the Philippines, they did not want the men to go into town because it was
dangerous for the men (00:39:03:00)
When the men went into town, they could only go down the main street
and between one and three blocks in either direction off that street;
everything else was out-of-bounds (00:39:18:00)
It was basically bar on top of bar and there were enlisted men’s clubs, with
one playing country music and the other playing rock and roll
(00:39:41:00)
Off to one side would be sitting a mamma san and several girls and if a
man wanted to dance, he would go talk with the mamma san, sign his
name in, pick a girl, and dance with her (00:40:15:00)
The government paid these girls well and when Wykstra ended up
meeting a girl whose parents owned the restaurant / bar, she said
she wanted that job because it paid the most money (00:40:37:00)
o Never the less, the Navy tried to keep the men on the base (00:41:13:00)
o One time, Wykstra went ashore because he had the day off and he bought a
couple of butterfly knives (00:41:19:00)
Whenever he went into town, Wykstra walked back on the left hand side
because when he drank, he back a little loose and on the right hand side
were many more prostitutes (00:41:39:00)
This time, he saw two nice looking Filipino women who always tried to
get him to go with them and that time, he said okay (00:42:02:00)
The three ended up hopping the back of a converted World War IIera jeep and on the way through the town, they begin fooling
around in front of the other people (00:42:24:00)
They ended up in an out-of-bounds area and Wykstra followed
them back their house (00:43:11:00)
�
o After Wykstra finished fooling around with another woman
in the house, he put his clothes back on and discovered his
knives were gone (00:44:18:00)
Wykstra then looked outside and saw at least three men standing
on porch of the house; he cannot see the other side of porch, so
Wykstra decides to run and jump out and when he does so, he sees
two other men standing on the porch (00:44:33:00)
o He assumed that they were going to get him and although
they did follow him for a little while, he did eventually lose
them (00:45:10:00)
As he was walking down the street back to the base, some kids came out
asking for money, which Wykstra did not have (00:45:26:00)
The kids started throwing rocks, causing Wykstra to run again and
luckily, a Filipino cop came, causing the kids to scatter
(00:45:40:00)
Wykstra eventually made it back to the ship, but it was bad because he
should have known better (00:45:54:00)
o Before the ship had pulled into port, the men went to a little meeting, where it was
explained how dangerous it was for the sailors in the town (00:46:02:00)
There was a river that ran next to the base and the men had to cross it to
get into town; the river was filthy and kids would stand next to it, trying to
bum cigarettes and other things from the sailors (00:46:15:00)
Just before the ship arrived in port, they had found the body of a sailor
floating in the river with no head (00:47:18:00)
The next day, on the desk of the base commander was a box and inside
was the head of the sailor (00:47:26:00)
o The prostitution outside the base was really bad, although the last time Wykstra
was there, there was a female mayor and she was attempting to clean it up
(00:47:66:00)
Wykstra finally made it back to the Davidson after about six weeks (00:48:46:00)
o While aboard the Hornet, Wykstra did not have any duties and although there
were movies to watch, he was still bored (00:48:53:00)
He would sit up on the flight deck and watch planes take off and land and
he eventually helped the man who was supposed to clean the barracks
because he was so bored (00:49:03:00)
Travels around the Pacific (00:49:31:00)
Wykstra was also able to go ashore in Japan several times but he did not spend too much
time in bars there; mostly, he bought china and other items that he wanted (00:49:31:00)
Going ashore in Hong Kong was fabulous (00:49:54:00)
o When he first came aboard the ship, Wykstra hung out with the men in deck crew
who he worked with and even when he became a yeoman, he still hung out with
them because he worked in his own little office by himself (00:50:07:00)
o One time, four of them were in a bar and another man who had just been
promoted and was not treating the others fairly walked into the bar (00:50:23:00)
�
They invite the man who and he sits between Wykstra and another man;
the other men tell him that he has to start straightening up (00:51:04:00)
The man was dismissive and the next thing Wykstra knew, the other three
men were beating him (00:51:30:00)
The man who was being beaten was in his late twenties / early thirties,
meaning he had been in the Navy a little longer than the other men
(00:52:01:00)
The men warned him that if he went back to the ship and reported them,
they might go to the brig but they would eventually get out of it and they
would find him (00:52:11:00)
Instead, the man reported that he had been jumped by some
Chinese people (00:52:23:00)
o Where the men were at, the city was clean and nice (00:53:11:00)
While Wykstra was aboard, the Davidson spent seven months of the Vietnamese coast
and every month, the ship would travel someplace different (00:53:53:00)
Going to Bangkok was a different experience (00:54:09:00)
o While there, a man would hire a cab for the day, not just one trip because it was
cheaper to hire a cab for the day (00:54:20:00)
o The Davidson stopped in Bangkok after about six months, making it one the later
stops, and it seemed like everyone aboard ship “lost it” around then (00:54:40:00)
Wykstra knows of only one man who did not “screw around” with
someone, even the married men who swore they would not cheat on their
wives (00:54:59:00)
o Wykstra and a friend hired a cab for a day and went touring to different locations
while other men from the ship sort of took over a hotel (00:55:17:00)
People who actually lived in the hotel ended up leaving because of how
the men were acting (00:55:41:00)
One man was on a second or third floor balcony and decided he was going
to jump into the hotel’s swimming pool; the pool was only three feet deep
where he wanted to jump but he did it anyway and ended up hurting his
head (00:56:30:00)
The man continued to beg the others to let him leave the ship and
go ashore again, so the last day they were in city, the men relented
and let him go ashore (00:57:04:00)
The man started drinking again and decided he was going to climb
a tree and grab the coconuts in it; he had to hop a fence to do so
and ended up landing onto of a broken beer bottle and split his foot
open (00:57:13:00)
Some other soldiers at the hotel wanted to put a tourniquet on the
foot, but the sailor said no and to just call an ambulance; the man
did eventually pull through (00:57:49:00)
Morale aboard the Davidson was not bad (00:58:19:00)
Wykstra did end up getting into serious trouble once (00:58:44:00)
o While in the Philippines, he was in a bar drinking and an ensign who had just
come aboard the Davidson walked in; Wykstra had introduced himself when the
ensign came aboard, so the ensign sat with Wykstra in the bar (00:58:50:00)
�o Wykstra questioned the ensign, saying that he was an officer and was not
supposed to be in town and not supposed to be seen associating with an enlisted
man like Wykstra (00:59:12:00)
o The ensign told Wykstra not to worry about it and he continued buy drinks for
himself and two Filipino girls, although Wykstra warned him that the girls were
not drinking alcohol, they were drinking tea (00:59:24:00)
o When they got into the bedroom, the girl Wykstra was with said she was from
Manila and Wykstra said he wanted to go there (00:59:51:00)
However, no one on a ship, not even a commander, was allowed an
overnight; a sailor’s rank determined what time he had to be back aboard
the ship (01:00:08:00)
Wykstra had to be back by ten o’clock, a petty officer by eleven, and a
regular officer was midnight (01:00:24:00)
o The girl said she would take Wykstra to Manila, so they planned to meet up later
and go (01:00:38:00)
o Wykstra figured he was going to get in trouble but his brother had been stationed
in Manila and Wykstra figured he could go there then tell his brother how much it
had changed in eight years (01:00:50:00)
o When Wykstra went to the designated spot, the girl was not there, so he had a few
drinks and decided to return to the ship; however, on the way back to the ship,
Wykstra saw the girl and together, they walked and boarded a bus (01:01:11:00)
o When Wykstra and the girl got off the bus, they got into a taxi, which took them
through several small villages before stopping in one and the girl explained that
that was where she lived (01:01:48:00)
o The girl’s house turned out to be a hut made out of bamboo and while Wykstra
was sitting there, almost everyone in the village came up to see him; it eventually
reached the point that they placed him by a window so everyone could see him
(01:02:16:00)
The girl’s father was the chief of police and when they all went to bed,
Wykstra could not belief that the father would send his daughter to be a
prostitute in order to help the family (01:03:19:00)
o The next day, Wykstra and the girl went to the village’s marketplace and when
Wykstra saw kids running around the streets naked, he bought a bunch of
underwear and handed it out to the kids (01:03:52:00)
o The village mayor lived next to the girl’s family and they ended up throwing
Wykstra a dinner that all the men in the village showed up to; when the men
finished eating, the women could eat while the men drank alcohol (01:04:37:00)
The other villagers wanted Wykstra to sing, so they got a guitar and
started playing for him (01:05:52:00)
o The next day, they went to a movie before Wykstra said he had to get back to the
base and the girl had to take him because he did not know how (01:06:11:00)
o The girl eventually took him back and when he boarded the ship, an officer told
Wykstra he was in trouble, although Wykstra explained he had paid someone to
take his place (01:06:32:00)
The officer said he knew Wykstra had an upcoming liberty leave and he
suggested Wykstra stay on the ship, which he did (01:06:56:00)
�
The Davidson eventually left the Philippines and headed back to Vietnam; on the way
back to port, the commander wanted to talk with Wykstra and hear his story and Wykstra
explained that he did more than any ambassador ever did (01:07:11:00)
o The commander said he did not care what Wykstra had done, he knew better and
as punishment, Wykstra was confined to the ship for the next ninety days
(01:07:48:00)
o After going to Vietnam for another thirty days, the Davidson sailed to Hawaii,
where Wykstra was supposed to get off because his tour was ending
(01:08:16:00)
o Wykstra knew some of the men in personnel and when they typed up Wykstra’s
orders, they left off his punishment, he was supposed to go to the barracks for
thirty more days to finish the punishment, and the ship’s XO signed it
(01:08:28:00)
When he was in, Wykstra did not give any thought to staying in the Navy (01:09:04:00)
o To him, if someone wanted to stay in, that was fine but being in the service meant
that someone did not think for themselves and if they did so, they got in trouble;
the men did what they were told and Wykstra could not continue to do that
(01:09:08:00)
Wykstra never actually went ashore in Vietnam (01:09:35:00)
Off all the men Wykstra served with, he wants to know what happened to one man, who
was from Wichita, Kansas, the most (01:09:57:00)
o The man suggested when Wykstra and he get out they go and tour the United
States together (01:10:10:00)
o However, Wykstra said he could not afford it because he needed to save money
for college (01:10:17:00)
o Wykstra got out of the military in 1969 and in 1972, he and three other men did
decide to do a little tour of the country, although one guy eventually dropped out
(01:10:25:00)
They were gone for three months and when they stopped in Wichita,
Wykstra looked the man up and discovered the man had gone right to hell
(01:10:48:00)
He and another man were renting an apartment above a store and
delivering cars to car lots (01:11:03:00)
o Wykstra and the other man spent a lot of time together while in the service; they
would be paid every other weekend, after which the two men would go ashore
(01:11:51:00)
The first weekend they were in Hawaii, both men went ashore and the
second weekend, they were low on money (01:12:05:00)
If Wykstra had duty on a Friday, he would give what money he had to the
man, who would play cards and would usually win, although one time
they had to spend the entire weekend aboard the ship because he lost all
the money (01:12:23:00)
o One time, the two men went to a piano bar and one of the women there was
gorgeous; Wykstra said something to her and after her reaction, Wykstra told the
other man that they needed to go to church (01:13:31:00)
�
After church, the two men went back to the bar and the woman was still
there; Wykstra’s friend started playing pool (01:14:27:00)
At some point, Wykstra had bought a car, an old Chevy that almost always
had something wrong with it, and Wykstra managed to convince the girl to
go with him, his friend, and a man the friend had been shooting pool with
(01:14:41:00)
The four went to a beach they thought was deserted and they decided to go
skinny-dipping (01:15:23:00)
The girl was so drunk that she passed out on the way back and when the
men got her to where she had said she lived, they pulled her out of the car
and left her on the sidewalk (01:16:06:00)
When Wykstra was first on the deck crew, the lieutenant junior-grade who was his boss
did not like him and one time, ordered Wykstra to sandblast part of the deck
(01:17:19:00)
o Wykstra said he had a liberty leave upcoming but the lieutenant canceled it and
made Wykstra do the sandblasting (01:17:49:00)
Most of the time, the enlisted men and officers were kept segregated (01:19:04:00)
o Wykstra never saw an hostility between the two groups except for one time when
the ship was going into port (01:19:12:00)
The commander and XO were both in the pilothouse and at one point, the
commander told the XO to take over because the XO needed to learn the
stuff; the XO was giving the orders and the commander corrected on him
two occasions (01:19:30:00)
After the third time he had to correct a decision, the commander began
yelling at the XO in front of the enlisted personnel in the pilothouse
(01:19:53:00)
o Generally, the officers treated the enlisted personnel okay (01:20:31:00)
The officers tended to throw their weight around and on some occasions,
their decisions were questionable but the enlisted crew could do nothing
about it (01:20:34:00)
The men could definitely tell that some of the officers were career military
(01:20:59:00)
When there was a ship’s reunion, it felt somewhat awkward for Wykstra because he had
only served for two years whereas many of the others had served longer, often four years
and they were much more “gung-ho” for the Navy (01:21:25:00)
When Wykstra was nearing the end of his tour, he had the opportunity to take a test and
become a yeoman but he declined; when asked why he declined, although he would in all
likelihood pass, Wykstra explained that there had been rumors circulating that some of
the sailors might get and early discharge and if he passed the test, he would not get an
early discharge (01:21:47:00)
o Wykstra ended up flunking the test but he did not receive an early discharge
(01:22:31:00)
Had he enlisted a month earlier, Wykstra would have gotten the early
discharge (01:22:48:00)
o When the Davidson sailed back to Vietnam, Wykstra had the opportunity to take
the test again but he told the officer he was going to flunk it again (01:23:02:00)
�o When the men finally got to San Francisco to be discharged, they were waiting in
a large gymnasium when there was an announcement for all the men in personnel
and yeomen of a certain rank to stand up, but Wykstra was not high enough
(01:23:32:00)
All the men who stood ended up receiving at minimum a month-long
extension on their enlistment to help process all the other sailors’
discharges (01:24:34:00)
Post-Military Life / Reflections (01:20:31:00)
Once he finally got out of the Navy, Wykstra returned to working full time and attending
college (01:25:15:00)
o He took as many credits as he could at a local college before transferring to Ferris
State University (01:25:28:00)
o After taking the required courses at Ferris State, he transferred again, this time to
Grand Valley State University, where he took the majority of his elective classes
in law enforcement (01:26:01:00)
o Wykstra ended up with a two-year degree from the local college and a business
degree from Ferris State (01:26:42:00)
After getting his degrees, Wykstra worked as a 2nd shift manager (01:26:52:00)
o It eventually reached the point that his children would be going to school, so
Wykstra asked to start workings days, even if that meant doing less skilled jobs
(01:27:01:00)
o The company honored his request and moved him to working during the day
(01:27:31:00)
Looking back, Wykstra was glad he was in the Navy, he saw a lot of the world, and if he
had to do it again he would, but he still would not enlist for four years (01:28:03:00)
o Had he originally go in for four years, he probably would have taken the yeoman
tests and passed them (01:28:20:00)
When Wykstra left, he had a going away party at his parent’s house, who were going to
visit his brother-in-laws family; everyone knew Wykstra had the party and when his
parents got home, they found out (01:29:09:00)
o The first letter Wykstra got from his mother said that she was disappointed that he
had the party (01:30:19:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WykstraJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Wykstra, James (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wykstra, James
Description
An account of the resource
James Wykstra was born in 1947 in the town of Cutlerville, Michigan. After graduating from high school, Wykstra felt it was his duty to serve in the military. In August 1966, he enlisted in the U.S. Navy Reserves. Following completion of basic training at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Chicago, Wykstra returned to Cutlerville and regularly attended the reserve meetings until going on active duty in the summer, 1967. Assigned the to destroyer escort U.S.S. Davidson, Wykstra patrolled along the Vietnamese coast and sailed to numerous locales in the Southwest Pacific, including Japan, Hong Kong, Bangkok, and the Philippines.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-01-13
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/642b2a8595a025b2e2a25e692f7f7dd7.mp4
5166f5dc7424dc4fd7f5b8a9ac8b707f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/17402006c999fbba3ef5559f29ec2c03.pdf
c9d789483733fcd85b1ea1bfb4f8ea12
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
William Womer
(17:37)
Background Information (00:13)
Born June 29th of 1941 (00:15)
Served in the Vietnam war and during the Cold War (00:22)
Highest rank was Sergeant Major. (00:30)
Born in Niles Michigan. (1:02)
He has 2 younger brothers and 1 younger sister. His brother Pete was in the Navy for 7 years.
(1:15)
His father attempted to enlist during World War II but was unable do to his job at a plane
factory. He was later drafted in 1945. (1:33)
Before he was drafted, William was an aquatics director for a YMCA. (2:24)
He was processed in Chicago. At this time the men were divided between Marines and Army.
(2:44)
The men were then sent by train to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri by train. (3:10)
Basic Training (3:22)
William was at Fort Leonard Wood during May-July of approx 1966. Due to the heat, some
physical training had to be cancelled at times. (3:30)
He enjoyed the basic training due to his excellent shape. (4:00)
As a result of his performance in training, William was made a squad leader. As a result, he was
given a room with 2 other roommates. (4:30)
The men were given hand to hand combat training and bayonet training. (5:00)
William did not find adjusting to military life to difficult. (5:32)
After his basic was completed, William was sent to California for Advanced Infantry Training
(AIT). (6:00)
Service in the Army (6:28)
After completing Advanced Infantry Training, William was sent to Germany where he served
with Company B, 2nd of the 509th Airborne Mechanized, 8th infantry Division. (6:34)
From Germany, part of his unit was deployed to Vietnam for the Tet Offensive in 1968. (7:00)
Because France dropped out of NATO, the men had to fly around France to Turkey, than
Thailand, than via Helicopter to Vietnam. (7:19)
A month after the Tet Offensive broke out, the unit was moved back to Germany. (8:00)
William served in the military for 26.5 years. (8:50)
While in Vietnam, William’s unit’s duty was to ambush enemies along the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
(10:10)
Often times the NVA that he encountered were too big of a group to fire upon. (10:34)
Effects of Service (11:00)
�
William has multiple military friends that he still keeps in touch with. One has PTSD. (11:12)
He has been awarded the Meritorious Service Medal 3 times, an Army Achievement Medal and
was select as the 4th Army NCO of the year. (12:20)
As a result of his service, William has a greater appreciation for life and the value of good
opportunities. (14:04)
William believes he is blessed due to the caliber of men that served over and under him. (15:17)
He would never want anyone to go into combat; he does not however, regret his experience.
(15:56)
Over all his military experience was good. (16:56)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WomerW1369V
Title
A name given to the resource
Womer, William (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Womer, William
Description
An account of the resource
William Womer, born in 1941 in Niles Michigan, served in the U.S. Army for 26.5 years. During his service, William was stationed in both Germany as well as in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive in 1968 where he organized ambushes on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. William had the honor of being selected as the 4th Army NCO of the year and spent the later part of his service stateside training solders.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jozwik, Heather (Interviewer)
Pontlous, Brooke (interviewer)
Catalano, Dmitrius (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-11-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb6752640ffee6ded69947d77009286e.m4v
46fbf805cf4a8951cd3c8ebb15be92ef
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/929f2ab8353b933b1b3ce3821266258e.pdf
9d169cf716152924a9297f5a667eaed3
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Bob Wright
Length of interview (49:00)
(00:05) Background
Born in Worcester, Massachusetts, on February 26, 1922. (00:13)
Father worked in a company that made looms. (00:37)
Family struggled during the Depression. Describes some of the odd jobs his father took.
(00:53)
Dropped out of school halfway through his senior year of high school. (01:42)
Worked as an apprentice [tool and dime maker] in 1940. (02:09)
Received deferments because he worked in a defense industry. (02:32)
Decided to enlist in the Air Force in Boston, Massachusetts, before leaving to Fort
Devens for processing. (02:56)
(04:02) Basic Training
Traveled by train to New Orleans, Louisiana, for basic training. The train traveled
through
Canada, Detroit, and Chicago first. (04:05)
Describes the uncomfortable living conditions on the train. (04:35)
During the drills, he would get nosebleeds. Consequently, he became a ‘gopher’ and
delivered messages. (06:01)
First went to school there for machine work. During an interview after his schooling, he
indicated that he was interested in working on airplances and was sent to the Aircraft
Institute in Kansas City, MO. (05:16)
Stayed in a hotel while in Kansas City with three other men. Stayed there for six months.
(06:30)
Worked from 3pm - 11pm. Were allowed to go out to bars for about four hours. (07:33)
Worked on electrical and mechanical aspects of aircraft. (08:13)
Was sent to school at the Douglass Aircraft plant in Los Angeles where they made A-20s,
which was an attack
bomber that fit a three person crew. (09:03)
Within weeks of graduation, the government was criticized for sending people into action
without adequate small arms training. Their outfit was sent back to basic training in
Kearns, Utah for two weeks. (10:20)
Traveled to Kissimmee, Florida by train to serve guard duty before the decision was
made for
him to go overseas. (12:03)
Traveled to San Francisco, California, by troop train. Stayed there for a couple weeks.
Describes his activities during his stay. (13:49)
Departed from California by victory ship. The ship traveled alone and traveled in a
zig-zag pattern and arrived at Guadalcanal on November 5. (15:14)
(16:28) Service Overseas
Describes policing the area around Henderson Field. (16:28)
One of his friends was a carpenter, so he constructed platforms and frames for their tents.
�(17:53)
Describes the living and weather conditions. (18:15)
Describes Japanese air attacks at this time. At one time, the Japanese had bombed an
ammunition depot. (18:44)
Their planes arrived in December. (19:12)
While serving guard duty on the beaches, he was sleep deprived because he worked all
night. When he confronted the first sergeant about it, he was written up for ‘trying to
shoot
him.’ (19:40)
Was transferred to 68th Fighter Squadron. Was supposed to join them in Bougainville
which was being taken at the time. Describes staying on the Treasury Islands for three
weeks while waiting to meet his squadron. (21:57)
Worked on P-39s with a crew chief. (25:06)
The plane he had worked on never returned from its mission and he was sent to work in
an ordnance unit until another place was ready to be worked on. (26:21)
Requested to stay with the ordnance unit. While working there, he helped clean the guns,
reload the ammunition and bombs as planes returned. He primarily worked on P-39s and P38s. (26:40)
Describes the difficulty of living on Bougainville due to constant Japanese attacks.
(27:33)
Didn’t lose many men during this time. (29:53)
Stayed in Bougainville for a few months before moving to New Guinea. (30:40)
Describes accidentally burning his hand while staying in [Hollandia] for a few weeks.
(31:00)
Outfit traveled to New Guinea. Rarely saw the locals. (32:19)
Their main base was on Middleburg Island, New Guinea. (33:10)
Was based on Middleburg for quite a while. (35:04)
Charles Lindbergh personally taught their P-38 pilots how to conserve gas that allowed
them to
travel as far as China to drop bombs. (35:16)
Traveled to Mindoro Island in the Philippines during the Invasion of Palawan. Signed up
to be a truck driver. (36:33)
By the time they had arrived, Palawan had already been heavily bombed. There were no
Japanese, but they had left several booby traps. (38:48)
The natives were very welcoming. (39:28)
Describes his reaction to the end of the war. At the time, they had received orders to go to
China but never went because of the conclusion of the war. Describes their relief. (40:35)
Left Palawan and went to Leyte in September. (41:45)
Nine men were sent home on a B-25 which exploded in the sky. Recalls that it was the
worst thing that’s ever happened to him. (42:11)
Returned home on a very small boat called an APA. (43:05)
(44:49) Life after Service
Landed in San Francisco, CA. Recalls that the troops weren’t received well. (44:49)
Enjoyed eating real food, especially fresh milk. (45:21)
Had to wait for a plane in Oakland for a couple weeks. Finally landed in Texas and had to
wait longer due to fog. Returned home two days before Christmas. (46:04)
Returned to his old job in February. Regretted that he didn’t go back and finish high
�school. (46:59)
Has five daughters who are all happily married now. (47:36)
Recalls that he “learned how to drink” while in the service. (47:46)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WrightR
Title
A name given to the resource
Wright, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wright, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Wright was born in Massachusetts in 1922. Enlisted in the Air Force during World War II after dropping out of high school. He was trained to work with the electrical and mechanical aspects of military aircraft in Kansas City and at the Douglass plant in California. Overseas, his service began at Guadalcanal and involved "policing Henderson Field" and guard duty. He was transferred to the 68th Figher Squadron in Bougainville where he worked on P-39s. Eventually, he requested to work with a difference ordinance where he primarily worked on P-39s and P-38s. His subsequent service was in New Guinea and the Philippines.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army Air Forces
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-16
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bd79b9c5b9a382e1cad25e63eef0d1ba.mp4
518a004e3ba621b6d7ccb90eca8ffd85
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb39d8abf117ce1a1590f29c35b68c82.pdf
160864586cbf7ec2d299df8709eac64d
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
MICHAEL WOODS
Born: Natchez, Mississippi
Resides: Alto, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 18, 2012
Interviewer: Can you begin for us by filling in a little bit of your own background?
To start with, where and when were you born?
I was born in a small town called Natchez, Mississippi, and it‘s famous today for tourists
who like to tour southern mansions, and it‘s called the pilgrimage. I was born in 1943,
and my family left Natchez and moved to New Orleans when I was about seven years
old, so I grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana. I dropped out of high school in the twelfth
grade. The principal and I had a discussion on how the school should be run, and I lost.
So, I-Interviewer: Up to that point had you been doing relatively well in school or...
I played football, and sports kept me in school. The schools were in poor neighborhoods.
The idea of not being able to dress appropriately for school was embarrassing to a
number of us, so the sports kept us in school until something happened and then we
dropped out. 1:11 I tried to join the Marine Corps when I was fifteen, I came from a
very poor background, and when you live in poor neighborhoods it‘s extremely difficult
not to be in trouble. My friends were being killed just before I got there, right after I‘d
left, so I knew it was a matter of time before I would be involved in something, so I
wanted to get out of New Orleans as quickly as possible. The only escape for me, as I
could see it, was the Marine Corps; so at fifteen I went down to enlist. I had to fill out a
1
�mountain of paperwork, of course, and I had to lie about my birthday. I was caught
because I put two different dates on two different pieces of paperwork, so obviously I
didn‘t go. 1:59 As soon as I turned seventeen--Interviewer: Let’s back up for just a moment. What motivated you to chose the
Marine Corps?
My dad had been in the Marine Corps, was in the Marine Corps, and he had been one of
the longest serving black Marines at the time. He had gone through the Marine boot
camp during WWII, so he was a role model for me. My family wasn‘t together, but my
dad, I saw him twice a year, at Christmas time and during the summer, so that was the
motivating factor for me in choosing the Marine Corps. Besides, the group of kids that I
hung around with were tough kids, so that was a challenge for us.
Interviewer: Go back to seventeen.
At seventeen, if my mother signed for me I could enlist, and I talked her into signing. I
enlisted and went to San Diego for Marine basic training. From there to Marine recruit
regiment, which teaches you infantry tactics, and from there into a Marine Corps warrior
combat outfit. 3:07
Interviewer: Describe a little bit the actual physical training process. What are you
doing at these different stages and how well did you do with the different parts of it?
I actually graduated from Marine Corps boot camp as a platoon honor man. The platoon
honor man is awarded a set of dress blues by the Leatherneck Magazine if you were the
top recruit in your platoon, and I was. Coming from the segregated south, the
psychological experience of basic training was extremely challenging. Here‘s a white
guy with a ―Smokey Bear‖ hat who's in your face twenty-four seven. What I didn‘t
2
�realize at the time, of course, was it wasn‘t just my face he was in, he was in everybody‘s
face, but I took it personally, so it was a psychological challenge. Physically, I‘d been an
athlete, played football, basketball, and ran track, so it wasn‘t challenging physically, but
certainly psychologically. 4:05 At that time Marine Corps basic training was sixteen
weeks, and I think the infantry training regiment training may have been six weeks. That
was the period of time that you were away from home before you could return.
Interviewer: What did you do to sort of cope with, or deal with, the stress of that
situation you were in? I mean, being treated in this boot camp fashion. How did
you handle that?
In my platoon there were—I think we may have started out with about forty-eight
recruits. Of the forty-eight recruits there were only three blacks, maybe eight Hispanics,
two native Americans, so human argues [?], when you had opportunity, you talked to
others who were going through the same stressful situation as you were, and that helped.
5:02 Letters from home, that helped, and being put in a leadership role early, believe it
or not, also helped, and as the platoon honor man, that was the right guy position, the drill
instructors held you accountable for the behavior of others. So, there wasn‘t a lot of time
to concentrate on your situation. It was a busy time, and I‘m not sure that boot camp isn‘t
set up for—in just that manner, you know, to keep the recruit's mind off those things that
don‘t have anything to do with the Marine Corps, and you are busy twenty-four seven.
You are told when to sleep, when to eat, etc.
Interviewer: Do you think it helped to have recognition? You're being treated in
badly on one level, but somebody must have thought you were worth something at
the same time. How early did they single you out a little bit?
3
�When you initially report into the recruit regiment, you are in a holding situation until
there are enough recruits to form three platoons to start training. 6:15 One of the things
that you recognize early on is, if you are assigned the task, you are held responsible for
doing that task. If you fail, you are punished to some degree, and if you succeed, you are
rewarded to some degree. The system, in the military, though stressful and demanding,
was the fairest system that I had been exposed to at the time. I think when you look back
at that, that‘s really what you‘re looking for. You‘re looking for—where can my ability
take me? Just based on my personal ability, nothing else, just my ability. 7:04
I think
boot camp is one of those places, or the military itself, is one of those places that operates
under that principle.
Interviewer: So you caught on to that fairly quickly and then used it?
Yeah, sure—it was a matter of getting over having this guy in my face twenty-four seven,
and that didn‘t happen right away. About halfway through training you started to
understand that you weren‘t in that boat by yourself, there are forty-eight people here,
and some of them are hurting worse than I am, and they‘re not black, ok? So once you
catch on to that, then you understand you‘re being judged on your leadership qualities,
your perseverance, and your ―can do‖ attitude. Those were the people that were awarded
the promotions to PFC, and given the responsibilities.
Interviewer: So you had sixteen weeks of basic and some additional infantry
training beyond that. You did six weeks, or whatever, and that’s all in one place?
8:13
No, basic training was in San Diego, in the city of San Diego, down town. Infantry
regiment training was at Camp Pendleton, in the mountains of Camp Pendleton, if you
4
�can think of California having mountains in that area. That training was about infantry
tactics. What are the duties of a squad leader? How does a squad work as a unit of a
platoon? What is the smallest unit in the Marine Corps, which is the fire team, how does
interlocking fire work? How is that integrated into artillery fire etc? So, you go through
six weeks of that, and you are exposed to the gas chamber, and you understand that right
quick. So, it was quite different and you were treated a little bit above a recruit, and you
are now called a Marine, but your activities are still controlled twenty-four hours seven.
9:07 You did have the opportunity to have liberty. That means to go into town, and I
think of the six weeks we may have had the opportunity to do that two or three times.
Interviewer: Once you complete that course, what happens next?
Then you are given twenty days leave, so you can go back home. The experience of
leaving this training and going back to be with your buddies after this period of time is
amazing. You find you don‘t have anything in common with them any more. You find
that the things they are doing seem childish and not grown up, so you lose that
connection that you had with these friends, they‘re still your friends, but you look at them
in a different way, and you start feeling differently about yourself. You see yourself as a
cut above, maybe, and maybe that‘s arrogance, but it‘s true. 10:08 It‘s true not only
from my perspective, but form others that I‘ve shared this with.
Interviewer: You have that moment—did your family notice the difference?
Yeah, they did, but my mother thought I should still be in my ten o‘clock at night, and we
had to have a discussion about that, you know. Yeah, the difference was noticed by my
family, and obviously they were pretty proud. I graduated from one of the toughest basic
5
�trainings in the military service and I had done it with honors, so not only were my
parents proud, but they managed to get it in the local newspaper.
Interviewer: Now where did they send you next?
From there I was sent to –I‘m trying to remember—each battalion, or regiment, has a
different area of Camp Pendleton, so I went to Camp Pendleton to Delta 1-7, which is
Delta Company, First Battalion, Seventh Marine Regiment, which is part of the First
Marine Division. The First Marine Division home is at Camp Pendleton, California.
11:11 Bur there are different camps. There‘s Margarita, which is the home of the 5th
Marine Regiment, there‘s Onofre, which is where Seventh Marines were located, and
then there‘s another area for the 1st Marines, so I think I was at camp Onofre. During this
time I‘m a new recruit reporting into a combat unit, and there‘s a cycle that you must go
through, and the way that cycle works is that the guys that had just come from a thirteen
month tour, in Okinawa, or in the West Pac, stay behind to train the new recruits that
come in, and that‘s called a six-week lock on phase. Again, it‘s integrating the squad
tactics into platoon tactics, into company tactics up to battalion and regiment. So you
pull operations, combat operations against other units at Camp Pendleton. 12:04 That
lasts about six weeks during this lock on phase, and you are actually preparing to make
your thirteen-month tour overseas. Once that six-week lock on phase is over, then the
guys that stayed behind to train you are transferred out of the infantry into support units.
So, after we finished the lock on phase, I was then transferred, the whole unit, was then
transferred from the 1st Marine Division to the 3rd Marine Division, which is in Okinawa.
The company then became I Company, 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marines.
6
�Interviewer: Ok now, when you were in this lock on phase doing this six-weeks,
when you were with the returning back from overseas, what was this, 1963 or was
this still 1962? Do you remember roughly when that was?
Yeah, I said we actually left to go over to Okinawa in January of 1963 because I was
married and my daughter was born several days before I got on the ships. 13:13 We
went overseas in 1963.
Interviewer: The reason I’m asking that—when the veterans giving you additional
sort of tactical training etc., these were not really people that were combat veterans
yet, were they? They had still been on peacetime duty--had anybody been to
Vietnam by then?
No, there was a presence in Vietnam, but it was mostly Army and they were trainers
rather than combat troops. There was a term used by them, which I can‘t remember right
now. No, they were not combat troops, and I don‘t think the Marine Corps had seen
combat, maybe since the Korean conflict.
Interviewer: So, that would mean that the kind of tactics you were learning were
still conventional warfare, what would have been done in Korea or even in WWII.
That is correct. 14:01
Interviewer: All right, so now you’re sent over and you go to Okinawa. How did
they get you physically out to Okinawa?
The USS Mann, which is considered a troop transport, and at that time everyone that
went over, went over by ship, and you were part of a fleet, which was usually carriers,
battleships, and the troop transport ship. So, the whole regiment went over by ship.
Interviewer: What was that trip like?
7
�For a person that had never been on a ship before it was exciting, and it was sickening.
One of the duties—when you‘re on ship, of course the navy is in charge, but the Marines
have duties on ship. I was assigned to the laundry, and the laundry is in the very bottom
of the ship where it‘s always hot and sweaty, and steaming. On the way over you go
through what‘s called typhoon alley, so if you take this trip at a certain time of the year,
you can pretty much bet that you‘re going to hit a typhoon, and we did. 15:06 When
you hit a typhoon the ship‘s bow moves up and down in the water, and if you‘re down in
a very hot steamy area, you will learn quickly what seasickness really is. So, needless to
say, I got seasick, and I was in my bunk, and I thought I was going to die, and I was so
sick, it was the first time I refused an order. When I was told that it was time to go to
work, I said, ―I‘m not getting out of this rack‖. Well, they figured out I was sick, so I
didn‘t get court martialed or anything, and I was sick for two days before I could finally
get out of bed. So, that was a thirty-day voyage, I think, and it‘s a straight through
voyage, and after the storm, and after the seasickness, then you spend your time on ship
playing Whist, that‘s the card game of choice until you get over. 16:05 You bond
during that time, with a lot of people.
Interviewer: You get over to Okinawa, then what kind of a setup did you have
there, what kind of duties did you have?
Okinawa‘s an island that‘s about twelve miles wide and about sixty miles long. I actually
think it‘s the most populated area per square mile on earth. During that time your money
had to be converted to Yen, and there was 360 Yen to a dollar, to show you, with the way
the economy is now and how far they have come. There were no paved roads, and most
of the roads—the main road was paved, but all the other roads were dirt roads. There
8
�were areas in Okinawa that catered to white military, and areas that catered to black
military. There was only one area for the blacks and it was called ―4-Corners‖, or Koza,
Okinawa. 17:08 Koza was quite a taxi drive from where my unit was, so the idea was to
make sure the last taxi doesn‘t leave at night, so you can get back to the base before
morning. It was the first experience with a foreign culture, primarily Japanese, but they
are really Ryukyus not Japanese. I picked up a little bit of the language, enjoyed the
people, but at seventeen or eighteen you are about learning the wild side of life, so not
too much cultural experience, but certainly some. From Okinawa you will become
what‘s called a float battalion. The Marine Corps had a battalion that‘s on the water
twenty-four seven year around, and they‘re ready to hit any hot spot in the fat east, so you
are a ready battalion. 18:03 You‘re floating with the fleet and some of the stops that
you would make would be, maybe three days in Hong Kong for R&R, rest and relaxation,
you may pull jungle warfare problems in the Philippines, so you may be there for three or
four weeks, so there is an opportunity to got to the Philippines, Taiwan was another port
of call. That‘s exciting, so you‘re exposed to many different cultures. Cold weather
training at Mount Fuji, Japan, so you get an opportunity, and at the base of Fuji is a little
Japanese village called Moji, Japan, and you get a chance to pull some liberty there, and
get exposed to the cuisine, which I really enjoyed. It took me a minute to eat Sushi, and I
didn‘t find anything in Japan that I wouldn‘t try. I didn‘t particularly like seaweed, but in
the Philippines I ran into something that I couldn‘t force myself to try. 19:03 There is
what we would consider a delicacy, but they eat it on a regular basis and it‘s called a
Balut. A Balut is an embryo that‘s not complete, that‘s in the egg, it‘s buried in the sand
to mature, and the way you eat it is to crack the shell and there‘s this little guy looking up
9
�at you and you suck it out. So, regardless of how much Sake I drank, I couldn‘t bring
myself to eat that. So, that was interesting, so I tell that story quite often.
Interviewer: Did you also go to Korea, or did you not get there?
We did go to Korea. We pulled a problem in Korea as an amphibious landing, we were
there for maybe a week, but not outside of the field, we didn‘t pull liberty in any of the
towns in Korea.
Interviewer: So, you were practicing amphibious landing. Is that climbing down
into landing craft?
Yes it is, another experience, especially if the waters are rough. 20:12 You come down
off a ship on a cargo net. Now, you are fully combat loaded, at the time I think I was in
machine guns, so not only are you carrying, probably, a seventy pack, your rifle, and a
machine gun, if that‘s what you‘re doing. You are fully loaded, and as you come down
the waves bob up and down, so It‘s a possibility that you can put your left foot down off
of this cargo net and it‘s touching the bottom of the boat, but by the time you get your
next foot down the boat is down there, so needless to say, a lot of people fell off. The
boat‘s interesting because they had old life preservers that you put on. The kind that was
so big that the back of your head tilted forward. 21:02 The PT boats that you get in, the
amphibious vehicles, they circle in the water, and they have to wait until everybody‘s
loaded before they start to the beach. That‘s always good for seasickness, if not from
you, from the guy that‘s pucking on you from behind or next to you. Once that signal is
give, then to the beach you go. That can be another interesting experience, remember
you‘re carrying this heavy equipment, and depending on how far the sand barges out,
depends on how close to the beach the landing craft can get. If the sand barges out when
10
�you jump off you could be in water to your chin, or land right on the beach, and I was
always the unfortunate guy.
Interviewer: Now, were these kind of old-fashioned WWII style landing craft with
the door that drops down in the front?
Yes
Interviewer: So, you weren’t going in on tracks or amphibious vehicles?
No, this was 1963 and we were still a conventional warfare force. 22:04
Interviewer: So, did you spend a full year based in Okinawa or were you using it as
your central base and then going out? How much time do you think you spent on
the ships as a battalion at sea or in foreign places rather than on Okinawa?
I think the floating battalion phase of that tour, maybe three or four months. I don‘t
remember exactly, maybe three or four months, and during that floating phase you stop at
these different ports, Hong Kong, Korea, the Philippines and Taiwan. The time that you
spend ashore was really based on how long the operation would be. It wasn‘t—you
weren‘t there any great length of time, most of your time was actually spent on the water.
When President Kennedy was assonated we were a floating battalion at that point. 23:03
I remember being woke up early that morning, two or three o‘clock in the morning, and
being told that the president was assassinated, and I rolled over and went back to sleep. I
didn‘t—guys were playing jokes on each other all the time, so I didn‘t believe it. Of
course, the next morning there was a formation on the deck to tell us that had really
happened. Now, during that floating battalion phase also, is our first introduction to
Vietnam. The new regime was in place, they had just overthrown the old regime, junta,
that was there, and because we were the floating battalion, our mission was to go in and
11
�pull out the American civilians. We had actually been transferred to an aircraft carrier, we
had been issued five rounds of ammunition and flack gear, we were on the deck of the
Oriskany and ready to board helicopters when the new regime had promised American
civilians safety, and we called off the operation, and that was 1963. 24:09 So, that was
our first experience with Vietnam, and I had never even heard of the country before that.
Interviewer: How much longer were you in Okinawa after that?
After the floating battalion, you come back and you are probably the senior residents on
the island in your preparation for leaving. When we came back and I was involved in
track and field, I ran a relay, I was a member of the Marine Corps, they had three football
teams over there, the Streaks, the Strikers, and the Royals, and I played for the Streaks.
So, it‘s sort of a down time, you do some operations, but you‘re not in the field nearly as
much. It‘s a good time, a time to get out and mingle with the public, and if you‘re an
athlete you can participate, and that sort of thing. 25:07 So, maybe we were rotated
within the next three or four months.
Interviewer: Now, when they rotate you out, what happens to you then?
Remember, at this time you‘re part of a unit. You‘re a regimental unit that‘s moving
from place to place, so on your rotation back to the states, the first thing that happens if
you have thirty days leave coming, so you‘re on vacation for twenty or thirty days.
Interestingly enough, I found if I took a twenty day vacation and went back to New
Orleans, I was so bored that I would stay fifteen days and go back to the base, you know,
or if I took thirty days, I would maybe stay twenty and go back. Once you get back you
are the senior people in the company and you are waiting for the recruits to come in, so
you can take them through their six-week lock on phase, so you have completed a cycle.
12
�26:00 Now, once that cycle is completed, what is supposed to happen is you are to now
receive orders out of a combat unit and into a support type unit, a truck company or
supply type unit. Most of my friends that came back with me—we had taken the new
recruits through their lock on cycle and we were waiting for orders, and most of my
friends had received their orders. I was waiting, kind of alphabetical, I guess, Woods,
you know—well, while I‘m waiting for my orders—BOOM—Vietnam, so the first
combat unit of any size to leave, Marine unit to leave, was about to happen. They were
now filling these units. We weren‘t the first unit to go to Vietnam; the first unit had
come from the Brigade in Hawaii. They had already gone, so this was the stateside unit,
and what they were doing was beefing up the 7th Marine Regiment. That‘s where I
started off, I had gone to Okinawa and I had become a 3rd Marine Regiment, I came back
and I was in the 5th Marine Regiment, and now I receive orders right back to the same
company, the same battalion, and the same division where I started, Delta Company, 1st
battalion, 7th Marines. 27:16 So, a tour of duty overseas is thirteen months, and at this
point I had about eight months to do in the Marine Corps, so how can you send me back
over for a thirteen month tour? So, when I reported in, the first thing I did was request
―mass‖, that means you want to see the CO, and my complaint was that I had just come
back from an overseas tour, I shouldn‘t be here, I have only eight months to do, and he
looked up from his desk and said, ―I‘m in the same boat, report in to your platoon‖, so I
did. The Marine Corps solved the problem for me though, what they did was to give
everyone in the Marine Corps a four month involuntary extension, so I had my thirteen
months to do. 28:04 From there I reported in to Delta 1/7, obviously, and back to
Okinawa we went. Because we were the first group to leave the states to go over, and
13
�remember, as I mentioned before, we were a conventional warfare organization, we had
to quickly learn jungle warfare tactics. There is a part of Okinawa that‘s in the northern
portion, in the hills, and it‘s called the Northern Training Area, NTA. So, NTA had
trainers set up to teach guerilla training, expose you to what a punji pit is and some of the
booby traps that the Vietnamese had set up. My company was the first company to go
through the training, and as a result of that we became the host company; we trained the
rest of the battalion and the regiment that moved up. After NTA, we then went to
Vietnam, and the area for us was Chu Lai area in Vietnam. 29:07 Chu Lai was on the
Song Tan River and our job was to control the river. The river had a small island in the
middle, so boats going on the river would go one way on one side and come the other
way on the other side. We had a 106 [recoilless rifle?], which is a big artillery piece, set
up on a hill, and the way you aim a 106 is with a .50 caliber [machine gun] that sits on
the top and fires tracer rounds, so if you want to hit something, you shoot the 50 caliber
with a tracer round, and wherever that tracer round hits, you fire the gun, and that‘s
where it will land too. To give you an idea of the impact of a 106, if you are lying on the
ground next to one that goes off, you rise up off it, so it‘s a heavy weapon. There would
be a squad that‘s down on the island and they would search the boats and check
identification. Occasionally, you would get a boat that would run the block, so you
would call up to the 106, and you would identify the boat and then the 106 would take
care of that. 30:17 So, we stayed on the Song Tan River, and pulled operations from
there, and he interesting part about that set up is that the first night that we moved in to
relieve Charlie company, who had been there before us, the VC came over our radio
signals and told us that they would see us tonight. Well, we haven‘t had combat, and we
14
�were young and ―gung ho‖, so we welcomed them. That night they came in, they came
in through barbed wire, conertina wire, trip flares, Claymore mines, mosquitoes as big as
helicopters, and they came in nude with the exception of their cartridge belts and
weapons. 31:08 They reason they were nude is because you can feel what touches your
skin as you move, so they didn‘t set off anything. We knew they had come in. They
were in our command post throwing grenades into tents, and needless to say, that was a
tense night. The next morning there were bodies everywhere. We repelled them with a
minimal amount of casualties. From there we went on two sweeps where we backed the
North Vietnamese up to a river, they had no escape, so they came out and that was
conventional warfare, that‘s a Marine Corps game, so that was over. Another operation
that we went on that sticks in my mind more than the others is—one morning we were to
mount the helicopters in a battalion size operation, hit a LZ, a landing zone, and sweep an
area. 32:16 Well, we got to the landing zone about dusk, we ran some patrols to see
what was in the area, we ran into a unit, and this was my squad that was on patrol, and we
couldn‘t tell how large it was because we were approaching a rice paddy dyke and
turning left. One of the guys picked up a Vietnamese unit on the other side of the dyke
turning left also, going in the opposite direction. Got on the radio to find out if we had
friendly troops, we did not, so we engaged them in fire, they did not return fire, so we
didn‘t know what size unit it was. You have to report that to intelligence, after, our
patrol, were back in the area, and some snipers fire is coming off the hill, my team goes
up, we look for the sniper, we can‘t find him, but he knows where we are because you
can hear bullets whizzing past your ear, and even hear them as they cut the air, it makes a
whizzing sound. 33:19 So, we thought that he won that day, so we came back off the
15
�hill without finding him. When we gave our report we saw the Hueys some miles away,
over a hill, and there were about five of them and they were lighting the hill up, so we
knew somebody is in trouble. There was a term used in Vietnam, and the term was called
―Sparrow Hawk‖, and ―Sparrow Hawk‖ is a rescue unit, and that title is assigned to
different units at different time. What that means is , if there is an organization in the
field and they run into more than they can handle, they get on the radio and they call
―Sparrow Hawk‖. Your unit then is supposed to go to their rescue, and we were the
―Sparrow Hawk‖ for this unit that was being hit. 34:04 So, even before we could eat,
we had to pack up and start up that hill. As we moved up the hill in the twilight, it‘s a
good thing we had to move because we could see that the unit that we had shot up was a
massive size unit, and they were moving in on our positions as we were moving up the
hill. We held most of the night and those hills were extremely steep. The guy in front of
me was carrying a three front fire rocket launcher, and I know he was hurting because in
addition to that he had to carry his rifle and his rifle ammo and stuff, so at times I thought
I should help him, but I was hurting myself. We took several breaks and we got to the
unit at dawn the next day. These guys had walked into, or been lured into and ambush
that had been pulled off by a battalion the size of Vietnam, and they had destroyed this
unit, there were bodies everywhere. 35:04 There was one guy in this unit who was
hiding behind a rock and he was saying, ―don‘t go over there, they‘re over there too,
they‘re all over the place, they‘re everywhere‖, and when the corpsmen got to him, they
had to evacuate him, he was—you know, what he had seen upset him quite a bit.
Interviewer: Was this a company size unit?
It was a company size unit.
16
�Interviewer: How much of it was left do you think?
What we saw, what I saw, were maybe eight guys. What we picked, my squad, I was
squad leader at the time, and we were assigned an area to pick up bodies and load them
on the LZ. We must have picked up eighteen bodies. Now, there were other squads
doing the same thing, and you didn‘t see the whole area. 36:04 My memory hits me
because I thought I had assigned my squad to do—everybody had an assignment and we
lost one that we later saw in the bush, so a team leader of mine and I had to carry this
guy, and we carried him on a poncho. I was in the front and his arm fell out of the
poncho and every time I took a step his arm hit the back of the leg. His arm was hanging
by a thread and he was shot from his feet to his head. It must have been one hell of a
battle because no one had any ammo left. This was a serious fight. For a long time I
would wake up at night and feel that arm hitting in the back of my leg. Where his blood
had gotten on my utility, it was there, and when I got the opportunity to throw it away I
did, because I could always smell it. 37:06 You can‘t get rid of the smell of death.
Another incident that sticks out in my mind was maybe a week before it was time for me
to rotate out of the unit—when we reported onto the 7th Marines out of Camp Pendleton,
and proud of going to Vietnam, your unit cohesion was broken because you‘re pulling
Marines from all over the Marine Corps to fill a unit, not a unit that you have been with.
So, you go overseas with some new guys that you have to bond with, and the ones that
you bond with best are those that you work closely with, which is your fire team, four
guys, and your squad, which is thirteen guys. So, my squad, before I was promoted to
squad leader, which was a result of an ambush, my team consisted of a guy named
―Tihi‖, a native American from a reservation in Arizona, I think, John J. Gianelli, a
17
�boxer, Italian, from Hoboken New Jersey, O‘Brien, a big real strong Irish guy that
smoked cigars, and me, so they kind of called us the ―mod squad‖. 38:18 We were real
proud of that, and in fact; we would volunteer to take the duties that others didn‘t want
because we knew a secret. We would volunteer for point on all patrols, and we ran
patrols every third day. The reason we volunteered for the points is because when you
walk into an ambush, unless it‘s an L shaped ambush, they usually let the point pass and
hit the main body. In addition to that we are the eyes and ears of the squad or the
platoon, so you know what‘s going on and you have control and direction, and we
enjoyed that, so we volunteered for the point. This patrol that we went on was an
interesting patrol because the last time we had moved into this same area we could see
where the VC had been improving their position, and we got hit every time we went into
this village. 39:16 this time it was different. The hit us, and you could see that the
position were being improved. So, the night before the patrol is when the squad leaders
would meet with the platoon commander, we would get our marching orders, who‘s
going to be flank, who‘s going to be point, what direction we‘re taking etc. When the
squad leader came back to meet with the team leaders, me, he gave us this patrol route,
and I said, ―Does Lieutenant remember they‘re improving their positions, and we‘re
walking into this stuff? ―If we take this route it‘s going to be Purple Heart day did you
tell him that?‖ And the squad leader said, ―No, you go tell him‖, and I said, ―Ok, I will‖,
so I did. 40:02 I went to talk to the Lieutenant and made a suggestion on how we might
avoid this, and he gave me a lesson on military tactics, and my suggestion, we were going
to split machine guns, and you never split your machine gun, so we‘re up and we have
point again. So, I met with my team, and we had to go across this rice paddy dyke, which
18
�is only three feet wide, maybe, and once you‘re on the other side of the dyke you‘re in the
village. The idea was for us to run as fast as we could across this dyke. As soon as we
get on the other side, rather than proceeding to the core of the village, we‘re going to set
up a perimeter until the rest of the platoon gets over, and then we‘ll pick point up again,
but we don‘t want to get this separated, not with these improvements that we‘ve been
seeing. 41:01 So, we set up on the side of the dyke before the run, and I said, ―go‖, and
for some reason Gianelli‘s the point, Tihi‘s behind him, and they ran halfway to the dyke
and stopped, and as soon as they stopped the 4th of July happened, and everything just
broke loose. The first round got Gianelli, we use to wear our magazines upside down, we
had M14s, not 16s, and it was easier to get them out that way. The first round hit him
and took the magazine guide into his leg, so it got him right in the—hit the femur vein,
bleeding quite a bit, and when things calmed down we—it took us a while to get the
helicopter in, it was extremely hot, like it always was, gangrene had already started to set
in, and finally we got him evacuated. 42:09 I never saw him again, but it is my
understanding that he lost part of his leg. The reason that bothers me is, Gianelli came
from a fighter family. His dad, his uncle, his cousins, they were all boxers, so when his
tour was up that‘s what he was going to do. Now, he had been training since he was a
young kid, and he was good, he was good, and Gianelli never realized his dream, you
know. The squad leader got killed that day, so I got promoted to squad leader. Before
the day was over we walked into three ambushes, two going out and one coming back.
The one coming back was the one that was a surprise. We had taken the route out several
times, but we had a different route coming back, because it looked like they were setting
up for us again, so we changed the route, and they still hit us. 43:00 What we found out
19
�later was that our interpreter was a VC, so they had signals and knew everything we were
doing. That was maybe four or five days before we were supposed to rotate. At that time
you rotated by numbers. If five new guys came in, and your number was one to five,
then you were on your way out. If your relief was in, then you didn‘t have to go on this
patrol, your relief would go on that patrol. So, for my team, all of us had a relief that was
in, so this was it, this was the last patrol for us. So, to be on your last patrol and it was a
weird time in America.
Interviewer: So, you were there, in this area, for thirteen months?
No, out of the thirteen months came the training cycle on Okinawa, so we probably
actually did, in country, maybe ten months. 44:04
Interviewer: And over the course of that time, were you kind of repeating all of the
same activities, patrolling the same areas, and doing the same things?
Yes, most of the time that we were there. A day went like—you came off patrol, and
there was always a poker game or a dice game or some sort of a gambling game going.
Many guys would come off patrol and sit in a game, and they may stay there until its time
for the next patrol. If you were in a quiet are, and we did move to other areas from time
to time, and engineers had blown out a swimming hole for us, so you could go
swimming. There was a softball field that was set up back in that area, so unless
intelligence was telling you that your unit is going to be attacked, you try to make life as
normal as possible. 45:00 Occasionally, like when they came in through the barbed
wire, you would be hit, and occasionally you would get snipers or mortars. There was a
village that was maybe a half-mile from us, and occasionally we would send a squad out
to set up ambushes to see if we could catch anything coming into the village.
20
�Occasionally on their way out to set up an ambush, they would walk into an ambush.
Sometimes we would go on a patrol and drop off part of the unit, say maybe in a
hedgerow to set up an ambush, and then you come out that way. You were supposed to
be fooling the local populace, so they didn‘t know you were dropping them off, but five
minutes later the kids are out looking at you, so they knew that you were there. Then
occasionally there would be a large operation that your unit would be a part of, so some
of your unit would go. We were also doing some stuff in Laos at the time, and we
weren‘t doing this as a unit. They were pulling some people out of units, putting them in
units, and sending them to Laos, and we weren‘t supposed to be there. 46:11 In fact, if
my rotation replacement hadn‘t come in I was scheduled to be one of those. There were
occasions when we worked with what was called Katusas, which was with the South
Korean military, we pulled operations with them, and they were an interesting group.
They were extremely disciplined, and we worked with the ROK Marines, its what they
were called, it was the Korean Marines. We would exchange emblems, and theirs were a
little different than ours. That was an interesting experience.
Interviewer: Did you have any sense whether or not you were really accomplishing
anything or changing anything, or did you not have enough of an understanding of
the larger political situation to think like that?
I was an eighteen year old that was uneducated, that had the broad stroke, and was here to
stop communism so there wouldn‘t be a domino effect. What does that mean? I don‘t
have a clue, and neither did anyone else, you know. 47:25 You got more of a picture of
what Vietnam was about when you came back to the states. No, I had no clue; I
remember I was in Vietnam when Ali refused the draft. I said, ―If I‘m here, he should be
21
�here. I don‘t know what the heck they‘re talking about‖. Of course, we were getting
daily news of what was going on back in the states; you were getting bits and pieces of
the news. So no, from a political perspective, I had no clue. I was eighteen years old and
an uneducated person. 48:04
Interviewer: Now, what impression did you have of the Vietnamese population
generally? Did they—was it positive or negative, or just didn’t understand them, or
what?
I didn‘t personalize the war against the Vietnamese people. I did understand that these
are governments that went to war for whatever their government ends are. The
Vietnamese that we worked with, I didn‘t treat them any differently than I would treat
anyone else. In fact, I will give you another funny story. Highway One was the major
highway through Vietnam, and there were a lot of buses that went through, and we had a
check point there for a while. Everyone had to get off the bus and we had to check their
ID cards, check the bus, and let them go on their way. We were set up near a village, our
campsite was set up near a village, and the Mamasans would have to go out and gather
wood, and they had these yokes that would go around their neck and they balanced them
with their hands. 49:05 There were big baskets on both ends of these yokes, and they
would fill them up with firewood and bring them back every evening. Well, one evening
this Mamasan had this big heavy lead of wood, and I can‘t let this woman carry this big
heavy load of wood up that hill, so at least I can carry it to the top of the hill for her. She
couldn‘t speak English, but through gestures I told her I was going to carry the wood for
her. She gestured no, no, no, but I communicated that I would carry it to the top of the
hill and then she could have it. I got under this yoke, and I couldn‘t lift it, and I couldn‘t
22
�believe that. I tried, and again I couldn‘t lift it, she laughed, got under the yoke, and
trotted to the top of the hill, so I was real impressed.
Interviewer: So, when, then, did you leave Vietnam off that tour? 50:02
Well, when you leave Vietnam is based on your number. You go to Okinawa, and from
Okinawa is when you come back to the states.
Interviewer: Was it 1964 when you left, or was it 1965 by then?
I‘m pretty sure it must have been 1964, yes 1964 [Presumably 1966, since the Marines
did not land until 1965]. So, processed out of Okinawa, and then flying back, I think I
came in through San Francisco, and then on leave before you‘re put into your next unit.
The next unit was Quantico, Virginia. The rule was, you got on this four-month
extension, and when you got back to the states, and I can‘t remember exactly what the
time frame was, but it was either if it was less than thirty days you had left to do, you
could be discharged or it was less than sixty days you could be discharged. I had either
thirty-four or sixty-four days, so I couldn‘t be discharged, so they sent me to Quantico,
Virginia, to the Casual Company there, and there were two events of interest there. 51:10
Disbursing is where you settle all the pay issues, so once I got to Quantico I had some
pay issues, and I had to turn in my records. I‘m walking to Lejeune Hall where
disbursement is, and coming toward me are two women Marines. There‘s a car parked
on the curb, and right across the street is the 45-pistol range. So, as I‘m walking toward
these women, going to Lejeune Hall, they open fire at the pistol range, and under that car
I went. The women thought that was funny, but that was survival reaction. Initially I
was a little bit embarrassed, but after—I really wasn‘t because that was what I had been
doing for almost a year. Another thing that happened at Quantico was that they made me
23
�this cross-country chaser. 52:03 I was given an assignment to go and pick up a deserter,
so they give you a little history of why the guy deserted. This guy was a tough guy and
he had attacked some guards etc. You have to go to the armory, you check out a weapon,
you had five rounds of ammo, but you‘re not supposed to load the ammo etc. So, there is
a driver of the vehicle, when we picked him up, the vehicle is covered in the back, and
you and the prisoner sit in the back. They told me about how bad this guy was, so I put a
magazine in my chamber, jacked around and took the safety off. By this time the guy is
panicky, ―hey, you‘re not supposed to do that‖, and I said, ―just sit in the corner and be
still, and you don‘t have anything to worry about as long as you are still‖. When we got
back and I turned him in he reported me, and they asked me if I put a round in the
chamber? Did I take the safety off? I said, ―yeah‖, and they said, ―Why?‖ I said, ―This
guy has attacked other people, and he‘s a bad guy, and I just wanted to make sure he
wasn‘t going to attack me, you know‖. 53:06 That was the last time they sent me out to
pick up anyone. I just waited for my thirty-four days to be up, and I was discharged. I
got out of the Marine Corps, and the Urban League got me a job at D.H. Holmes, which
was a large department store. What I did was finish shoes that had been purchased and
returned, so you had to sand the bottoms and put them back on the shelf. The first
payday came around and you didn‘t get a check, you got a pay envelope. The supervisor
that I had gave me the pay envelope, and when I looked at my pay I was missing money.
I said, ―Don‘t we get x amount of dollars an hour?‖ And he said, ―that‘s right‖, and I
said, ―Other than taxes is there something else being taken out? 54:02 He said, ―no‖,
and I said, ―this isn‘t right, that‘s not enough money‖, and he said, ―I don‘t know about
that‖, and he turned around and walked away. The guys told me that occasionally this
24
�guy takes money out of your pay envelope, well, I worked one more week there and I
quit. The next job that I got was at the top of the International Trade Mart at the end of
Canal Street, a big tall building, as a dishwasher. We had to argue whether or not I
would be paid minimum wage because for that sort of job you don‘t have to pay
minimum wage, and I‘m not going to work for less than minimum wage. Even minimum
wage was not enough to get paid on a Friday, take a girl friend to a movie, give my
mother some help out money at home, and have a nickel left in my pocket, that didn‘t
work. The only thing I could think of was, ―let me go back in the Marine Corps to kind
of figure this out—what am I to do in life? This isn‘t working. 55:03 So, I came back
into the Marine Corps for a change of MOS, Military Occupational Specialty is O-311. I
came back in for O-361, which is postal. I was sent to El Toro California, which is no
longer there, expensive property, stayed an El Toro for a while and from there another
overseas tour.
Interviewer: Where did you go on the overseas tour?
You go to Okinawa, but let me tell you what happened. Most of the Marine Corps that
serves in the Far East is from Okinawa, but there‘s a wing in Iwakuni, Japan. By this
time I have been overseas three or four times, and they have all been in Okinawa. This
set of orders is for Iwakuni, Japan, and I‘m happy because I‘m going to see something
else. 56:04 I was to transfer, go to Okinawa, transfer to another jet that‘s going to take
me to Iwakuni, Japan. When I get to Okinawa I‘m met at the airport by an old postal
friend of mine by the name of Guy Olegallo,, and the last time I saw Olegallo he was an
enlisted man, and now he‘s a warrant officer. He said, ―Woods, man, I‘m glad to see
you. I heard you were coming over, and that‘s why I came down to meet you. Guess
25
�what I‘ve done?‖ I said, ―What have you done?‖ He said, ―I got your orders changed‖,
and I said, ―You what?‖ He said, ―I got your orders changed and you‘re going to work
for me‖, and I said, ―look, look, I got a chance to go to Iwakuni and you got my orders
changed?‖ He said, ―Yeah, yeah, let me tell you what I‘m going to do for you. You‘re
going to be the postal inspector for the island‖, well, that calmed me down a little bit.
That was an interesting job, and I had two guys working for me, so I ended up staying in
Okinawa. 57:03 My last overseas tour was in 1979. From there I came back to San
Diego, and from San Diego I was discharged. I had some interesting duties, I was a
recruiter, so you go to recruiter school in Parris Island, South Carolina. It was my first
introduction to the Midwest, my original orders sent me to Chicago, and Chicago had a
sub-station in Michigan City, Indiana, so they sent me there, and I was there for about
four days, and because it was called Michigan City I didn‘t realize I was in Indiana, so
the first letter I wrote home I told them I was in Michigan City, Michigan. From there—
Michigan City had a permanent contact station in Benton Harbor, Michigan, so I ended
up spending three and a half years in Benton Harbor, Michigan. 58:04 Once you have
done independent duty, which is the drill field, I had been on drill field, I was hand
selected to be an instructor at drill instructor school, I taught the leadership package, and
once you have those kind of duties you can pretty much choose where the duty station is
that you want, so San Diego was the choice for me. I enjoyed the environment, the
economy was bad, my wife to be, had visited me there for a number of times, and she
wanted to leave Michigan when I got out of the Marine Corps, and live in San Diego, but
she was not really mobile here. We had gas lines, Carter was the president at the time, so
we decided to settle in Grand Rapids, Michigan until we decided where we wanted to live
26
�when the economy got better. Once I got here I saw how far a dollar could go and this
was a community unlike others in Michigan, so we built a home and got a job at Grand
Valley, and here we are. 59:06
Interviewer: Let’s back up a little to the point where you had re-entered the Marine
Corps etc. You’re in the Marine Corps, kind of the late sixties on into 1982, and did
you ever have any pressure to go back to Vietnam, or was there any prospect of
going back to Vietnam in say the late 60’s, 69, 70, in there, when we had a lot of
soldiers over there?
There were a lot of things going on at that time and there was some pressure to go back to
Vietnam. There was an old saying that said, ―there are only three types of Marines, those
in Vietnam, those leaving, and those coming‖, so it was pretty much like it is now. There
were not as many tours, guys spend as many as five tours in Iraq, but three and four were
not unheard of in Vietnam, it was the same situation.
Interviewer: You managed to stay out of that.
I didn‘t, actually, and once I got back to camp Lejeune, North Carolina I was there for a
while stationed with my dad. 0:06
My dad was in the Marine Corps for a while. I‘m
in postal, and I got orders to go overseas. Now, there had been a gunnery sergeant I had
been working for that he and I did not get along at all, I mean not at all. In the morning
when I was sitting at my desk doing the mail, out of the corner of my eye I could see this
guy standing in the door watching me, and he would find something to say to me daily.
If it took me too long to find a parking place he would be waiting for me at the door.
Well, he got transferred to Washington D.C., and he became a monitor in Washington
D.C. A monitor the person that makes assignments for all of the people in the Marine
27
�Corps in their field, so if you‘re a postal monitor and there needs to be a person in Japan,
your monitor will pick a person to go to Japan, ok? That would be based on how long
you have been in the states and the rotation cycle etc. 1:03
I got orders to go back to
Vietnam, but before I left Camp Lejeune my orders were modified to put me back into an
infantry unit. I went to see the colonel and I told him that I had just come back into the
Marine Corps for a change of MOS from infantry to postal, so this is a mistake, and to
put me back in postal. He agreed, and changed my orders back to postal. The staging
station for everyone going back to Vietnam is Okinawa, you leave the states, you go to
Okinawa, and from Okinawa to Vietnam, and when I got to Okinawa my orders had been
changed back to infantry. Now you‘re in a casual company, you‘re waiting for a flight to
Vietnam, so every morning you fall out for formation, the people that are going to leave
that day, they call your name and tell you what time to get your gear ready and where
you‘re going to depart from. 2:04 So, the lieutenant that was running the information
called me and told me what infantry outfit I was going to etc. I said, ― wow, mistake‖,
and he said, ―what do you mean mistake?‘ I said, ―I‘m postal, and I just got this changed
before I left stateside, so somebody changed it back, so we need to change that back‖,
and he said, ―take care of that when you get in country‖, and I said, ―no, we‘re going to
take care of this before I get in country, we‘re going to take care of that right here in
Okinawa‖, and he said, ―Marine, I‘m not asking you, I‘m telling you‖, and I said, ―yes sir
I understand, but if you don‘t take care of it here then I‘m going to request mass with the
President of the United States, and it will be thirteen months before I see him and then I‘ll
rotate, so we take care of this here or I‘m going to ask to see the president‖, so he put me
in a casual company until they could work this out. The casual company was a postal
28
�casual, and what we were doing was handling the mail from the deceased people in
Vietnam, and there was loads of that, so I spent that thirteen months in Okinawa, and I
had a monitor that was trying to get me killed, I‘m sure of it, but I tricked him and I‘m
still here. 3:06 A number of things were going on at that time. We can‘t talk about the
Vietnam experience without talking about the environment that that operation took place
in. That was only one thing that was happening in America. There was the civil rights
movement that overlapped this, we had a president who had been assassinated, a
candidate for president assassinated, two major civil rights leaders that had been
assassinated, the woman‘s movement was burning their bras, there was a hippie
movement that was taking place, the Democratic National Convention in Chicago was a
siege, people were demonstrating against an oppressive government as they saw it.
Every serviceman that came back experienced the hatred that many Americans showed
them. For the black serviceman it was a little different. 4:06 The difference is as
Muhammad Ali said, ―I haven‘t lost anything in Vietnam, and there‘s a civil rights
movement going on here, and there are dogs being put on black people, and there are
hoses being put on black people, you fight is here on the streets of America, not in
Vietnam. You‘re fighting for Vietnamese rights when you don‘t have those same rights
here at home. Why are you in that uniform?‖ So, your own community had ostracized
you. Processing that was not easy. On the one hand you had to understand that didn‘t
really have a lot to do with the military. The military was just seen as the symbol of
American power, so you are attacking the symbol, it‘s not the war, and it‘s the symbol
that you are attacking. I kind of worked my way to understanding that. 5:02
The other
thing I understood was that what I‘m seeing here was a better equal opportunity program
29
�in the military than the one that I have in the south, but you still have to deal with being
ostracized by your own community. It wasn‘t an easy time for black military people. I
guess people handles that in different ways, some went AWOL, some would have stayed
in the military, but got out, some turned around and demonstrated against the military,
from a civil rights perspective, not from a Vietnam perspective, some did both, and it was
an individual thing on how you processed that and how you dealt with it.
Interviewer: And you of course stayed, once you went back in. You went back in
and you stayed in.
Yes, I stayed for—I got a twenty-year retirement, but you could actually retire on twenty
years, at that time, with nineteen years and six months. If you had a four year enlistment
and you re-enlisted at three and a half years, then that other six months was given as
admin time, so it counted, but you can no longer do that. 6:14 That was grandfathered
in, so I retired at nineteen years and six months. I had planned on staying longer, and I
enjoyed the military, some of it. the spit and polish, the competition, who can look the
best at formation in the morning, I had friends, you had fourteen set of utilities, you had
one set that you would get in on a foot locker and step in, so you wouldn‘t break the
crease in the back, you spent all night spit shinning your shoes, you had starched and
blocked your cover, and then at the one o‘clock formation you would change out of that
into a new set. That was for me, and I really enjoyed that, and my friends did also, so we
ran that competition. When I decided to get out of the Marine Corps I had a moment. If
you are a field grade officer you have awesome responsibilities. 7:12 Major, Lieutenant
Colonel and Colonel, a full regiment or battalion, and the lives of everyone of theirs is
right in the palm of their hand. Not only do you control the lives of these people, but the
30
�amount of equipment, the tactics that you could put—it‘s awesome, it‘s really awesome.
So, I have always thought of these guys as super smart guys, right? When I was in San
Diego I ran the non-commissioned officers school when I got there. I was given a choice
of three positions, go to my field postal, run the field house, or I could run the NCO
school, so I selected the non-commissioned officers school, and I had five young
sergeants that worked for me. The non-commissioned officers school will take corporals
and sergeants and teach them how to be non-commissioned officers. The school was six
weeks long I think, so we would run a six-week class, a two-week break, and run another
six -week class. 8:10 There were other schools in San Diego, there was drill instructors
school, which I had been a part of that, I had been an instructor there, there was recruiters
school, and I had been a part of that, there was C school, spit and polish, these are the
guys that put on a performance when you‘re base is visited by heavy brass, shoot the
canons etc, and the lost school on that totem pole was the non commissioned officers
school, and that doesn‘t work very well for me. So, I thought, ―what can I do to move the
school into the spotlight, so when people speak of schools, they will speak of us in the
same breath they speak of the other schools?‖ So, what I decided to do is—right next
door to us was an Air Force station, and the ships come into San Diego, and there are
Marines on ships, so if you‘re in port and that coincides with our school cycle, and then
send your guys to our school. There was also a Navy group that was close to us. 9:06
so, I went to them and said, ―if you want to send your guys to our school, send them‖,
and the very first group that took me up on that was the Air Force. They sent a young
man over that embarrassed all of the Marines. We went to the rifle range and fired and
he fired the highest at the rifle range, he wiped them all out on the PFT test, right? So
31
�that was newsworthy for the base paper, so my boss wasn‘t aware of what I was doing,
and when I reported in he had two hats. One hat was C school, and one hat was NCO
school. NCO school-- he said, ―Gunny, you run the NCO school, keep me out of trouble
and it‘s your school, I have to focus my attention over here‖. He ran the C school, so
when he read about this in the paper he said, ―What‘s going on?‖ I said, ―I invited the
Air Force over and I‘ve invited the Navy over, and my people have to learn their
regulations for inspections, and I‘m trying to get some publicity for the school‖. He said,
‗this is great, this is great, you know‖. 10:07
Well, the commanding general got a hold
of it too, so during an officers meeting the colonel, who reports to the general, asked my
boss to come to the next meeting and explain to the general what‘s going on. Well he
couldn‘t, so he said, ―you‘re going‖, and I said, ―ok‖, so I‘m on the agenda to go back,
and I‘m the last person on the agenda. There were Majors, Lieutenant Colonels, and
Colonels, and at the time there was a Professor Bloom that I think was out of Wisconsin
and come up with a learning program that was called the Bloom's Theory of Mastery.
Students didn‘t compete against other students; they competed against a list of learning
objectives. The Marine Corps had said, ―this is what we‘re going to do‖, and I had
instituted that into NCO school, but many of the schools didn‘t like it and they hadn‘t
instituted it, which is interesting to me because there was an order that you do it. 11:03
At this meeting we had people telling the general why this wouldn‘t work. I had been
working that for six months, so what do you mean why won‘t work; it‘s a perfect
program? So, my mouth kind of fell open, and first, I never would have dreamed these
guys would give any sort of excuse, second, they certainly wouldn‘t have been accepting
that kind of excuse from me, so I found that these Captain Kirk Star Trek guys had clay
32
�feet. On that day I decided, I had to get out of the Marine Corps because they make more
money, they have more responsibility, and the only difference between them and me is a
sheepskin, so I got to go do that, I‘ve got to go do that. At that point I had seventeen
years in the Marine Corps, and I never thought of myself as college material. I came
from a poor background and we never talked college in my house. I thought you had to
be a real smart guy to go to school, but if these guys can do it, I can do it that standing on
my head, so I had seventeen years in and I had three more years to do. 12:08 I did it
and by 1980 I got out on Friday and enrolled in college on Monday, so my life changed.
Interviewer: Did the Marine Corps itself change at all during the time when you
were in it? Was it a different sort of organization, or attitude, or way of doing
things in 1980 than it was in 1963?
There was some change going through the Marine Corps, but you had older guys that—
and the Bloom Theory of Mastery is an example, it‘s an order, but this is the way we‘ve
been doing it for a hundred years. It had to be jammed down their throat, so change was
real slow. You could see some changes at the top, and one of the changes that took place
because of the Marine Corps TO pride of tactical readiness number, the pride of Vietnam
was 175 thousand, and of course, the Marine Corps number went up to over 200 thousand
during the height of Vietnam. Well, prior to that, the commandant of the Marine Corps
sat as a joint member of the chiefs of staff, but didn‘t have a vote unless it was a matter
involving the Marine Corps, so he wasn‘t a co-equal at that point. 13:11 Once the
Marine Corps strength went up over 200 thousand, then he became a co-equal partner on
the joint chiefs of staff, so that was a change, and put much pride in the Marine Corps
forward to see that happen. There were other changes taking place, certainly we had to
33
�adapt to jungle warfare training, and I heard some officers talking on time, and I don‘t
know if this is true, but this is a story I will relate to you. When we first got into Vietnam
we went to the French and asked the French for the manuals that they used to fight to
fight the insurgents in Vietnam. Well, the French were using the same manuals that we
were using to fight jungle warfare in WWII. It was jungle warfare, but it was a different
type, for example, if you were fighting jungle warfare in the Philippines, you were a
foreign power fighting another foreign power in the Philippines. In Vietnam you weren‘t
fighting a foreign power, you were fighting the people in that country, the indigenous
population. 14:09 So, it wasn‘t the same. We had to kind of learn on the job, so there
were some changes, but a lot of things died hard, and over time, so there was some
change, but not a lot of change by the time I got out of the Marine Corps.
Interviewer: Was there change, do you think, in the sorts of people who were
joining the Marines, or why they were going in or anything like that?
There are recruit categories, there‘s a category three, a category two, and a category one,
I guess, and that‘s based on the score that you make on an ASTRAP test. When I came
in the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps was taking people that scored in the lower
percentile, cat fours is what they were called. Anytime there‘s a military buildup the
requirements change. There was also a draft during Vietnam, so the kind of people that
were coming in may not have been the most desirable. 15:11 The Marine Corps was
processing people out of the Corps for bad conduct discharges on a regular basis, a
regular basis. Casual companies had just about every base that was filled with
undesirables that would be let out. Some of that had to do with the civil rights things that
were taking place. There was a rebellion within the Corps, and some of it was that. I
34
�think now you have a more educated military. There may even be a requirement for
senior enlisted men to have some college, maybe even an associates degree for certain
ranks. If you don‘t make a certain rank by a given time in the military, you have to get
out. That‘s good and also poses some questions, and it‘s good because you can think
through tactical situations better for your unit leaders. 16:13 At the same time that you
start to think through these tactical situations, it poses questions if this is the best thing to
do, that you‘re being told to do. So, I haven‘t seen this, but I would assume, given the
way that I think, even when I was an uneducated person I raised questions of some of the
things we were doing, and now as an educated person now, I raise a lot of questions
about things that should be done, so that may be a double edged sword, I don‘t know, I
haven‘t seen any reports to see how the military responds to that. Let me give you an
example of that let me give you an example of that. The Marine Corps has a silent drill
team and these guys are sharp. They do sunset parades in Washington D.C., and they
perform all over the country. If you haven‘t seen them, you should because they are
seriously impressive. 17:11 Each member of the silent drill team is probably five deep,
make a mistake and somebody‘s going to take your place, right? But they only take
young Marines for this because of the discipline that‘s required and the demand that‘s put
on them. the younger they are, the less they will rebel against this, so you have to think
about that, and that‘s why the military, up until recently, we‘re in combat, take a person
that‘s a certain age to go through basic training. Once you get older and more mature
there are things that you rebel against. I think the education process is like that too, and I
would be interested to see any reports that the military may have done on something like
that.
35
�Interviewer: If you look back on the career that you had in the Marine Corps, what
do you think the main effects of that experience were on you? 18:08
The Marine Corps makes you responsible. I find that responsibility is something that a
lot of people try to avoid. I don‘t mind being held accountable. I am responsible for my
actions, and what I expect as a result of being accountable is recognition when I do well,
and if punishment is necessary when I do poorly, it‘s all on me. It gave me self
assurance, it gave me early exposure to leadership, it made me understand the real
meaning of friendship, everybody is not your friend. Friends are a special category, and I
met people in the Marine Corps that are my friends today. It made me know that I am
capable of competing in any environment that I decide to compete in. 19:12 Before I
went in the Marine Corps I had nowhere near that type of insurance. Society had told me
that there were only certain things I could do and a lot of things I couldn‘t do, and the
Marine Corps changed that for me.
Interviewer: All right, the whole thing makes for a very good story, so I would like
to close here by thanking you for coming in and telling it today.
Thank you very much for having me.
36
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WoodsM
Title
A name given to the resource
Woods, Michael (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Woods, Michael
Description
An account of the resource
Michael Woods grew up in a poor neighborhood in New Orleans and enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1960 at the age of 17. He was based on Okinawa in the early 1060s, and was sent to Vietnam with one of the first Marine units assigned there, and participated in a number of combat actions of varying size. After his tour in Vietnam was over, he stayed in the Marines until 1979, but did not return to Vietnam.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.)
WKTV
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-08
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29b418a1b255ed191acfc79d142fbc2d.mp4
5b8941e2ccd747a83e5adae108434533
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/52e7e6032ff1efc16721fb286672d851.pdf
07004ed830f37171b9c75b8f2baa0195
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Cold War
Name of Interviewee: Loyd Winer
Length of Interview: 00:44:32
Background:
Born April 23, 1929.
He served in the Navy during the Vietnam War and achieved a Lieutenant rank.
He went to Grand Rapids South High school and went to Junior College. When he went
to college he belonged to the US Marine Reserve.
When he went to Michigan State University to finish his studies, he left the Marine
reserves as well.
During those times, there were selective services, which meant that he would be drafted.
While he was a MSU, they made him go to Detroit to get a physical exam to see if he was
physically able to serve and he was.
The only way he could not go into the service right away was to stay in college. And
they called him when he was in college to see if he met all the requirements needed,
grade-wise and such to make sure that he could still remain out of the service.
He got near the end of his senior year and he knew that he was either going to go into the
Army or something else
The Navy recruiting office came to the college and they said if he passed their physical
he would be a candidate. So he passed everything fine, except his blood pressure, which
he had never had a problem with before.
So they told him to lie down and they kept checking it, but it was still high. He explained
to the doctor that he had never had this problem before and if they did not take him he
would have to go into the Army, and he did not want to go. So the doctor wrote down
that his blood pressure was ok.
So then he was in a group of 10,000 applicants, of which 1,000 of them would go to
Officer’s Training School.
When he graduated in June of 1952, he thought he would have a chance to go, but he
never heard from them. The draft board told him that if he doesn’t hear from them, he
would have to go into the Army.
His dad suggested that he go see Gerald Ford, the representative at the time, so he did.
Mr. Ford told him that he could either pay him to call down and find out, or wait until he
can send out a telegram and come back tomorrow to find out. So he waited.
Then next day he went back and there was the telegram. He had been accepted in class 8
and was to leave in October or 1952.
So Mr. Ford signed the telegram and he brought it to the draft board.
He would work for the highway department for the next couple of months, until he went
into service.
When it was time for him to go into service, he took a bus to Detroit, a train to Boston, a
bus down to Rhode Island.
That is where Officer Candidate School was.
�Officer Candidate School/CIC Officer Training (4:40)
Officer Candidate School lasted from October to the following March.
Only 600 graduated. A couple committed suicide because they did not graduate.
From there he had two choices: he could go to an electronics school in California, to
become and electronics officer or go to a Naval Air Station to become a CIC Officer,
which was Combat Information Center Officer.
Since his future wife was still in school at MSU, he picked Chicago because it was
closest to home, not necessarily knowing what would happen.
When he got there he would train to work in a combat information center. This would
include radio, radar, control equipment. You learned to navigate the ship, you learned
how to use the countermeasures equipment, radios, radars, etc.
When he graduated from that he was given two choices again: Atlantic or Pacific, and
what size of combatant ship you want to be on.
So he picked the Atlantic and an aircraft carrier.
So they assigned him to the USS Gilbert Islands, a "jeep" carrier that was stationed in
Boston.
Active Duty on the Atlantic (7:15)
At the time, this ship was an anti-submarine aircraft carrier. This means that they looked
for submarines with the planes.
On the ship he was the CIC Officer and was also in charge of the electronic
countermeasures, photographic lab and a few other things.
He took this ship on a tour overseas to the Mediterranean, he was there for 6 months and
then came back and out again to the Atlantic several times and it was finally decided that
the ship was to be decommissioned.
The ship was a former freighter that had been turned into a small aircraft carrier.
So again he was face with two choices: Atlantic or Pacific and the size of the combatant
ship.
Normally, after you have 18 months at sea, you get a shore duty job. At the time, his
expertise would only allow him to go at sea. So he picked another aircraft carrier and the
Atlantic.
Just before he picked that, his wife graduated from college. In June of 1954, he drove
home on a Friday night, got married on a Saturday, and on Sunday they both drove back
to Boston.
He was then assigned to the fleet carrier USS Ticonderoga. At the time this ship was
being re-commissioned in Brooklyn, NY.
So he and his wife lived in Boston for a couple of days but then moved to Brooklyn and
he went on the ship.
Because it was still in the harbor at the time, he was assigned to be the senior shore patrol
officer on Manhattan Island. So every third night, he slept at the police station.
He was there mainly to take care of any drunk officers that the patrolmen came across
while working.
�
Every night, in the Navy car, two enlisted men would take him to places that were off
limits to Navy personnel. So they would go and check these places out.
Because they were off limits, the manager of the bar would beg him to let their place be
on-limits, but he had no control over that. He was only there to check.
This one night, there was a fight at Yankee Stadium between a couple a famous fighters.
So they went to the fight and drove up to a police officer and said that they were the
official shore patrol and they needed to know where to park. He blew his whistle,
stopped all traffic and told them to park in a no parking spot.
They go into the stadium, figure out they need to enter in the police entrance and walked
in.
So they were up, behind 3rd base, but the fight was near 2nd, and there were people in
folding chairs on the ground. Police were all around the outfield making sure more
people don’t get in.
So they went over to the gate and said they were the Official Shore Patrol Contingent for
the field, and the man let them through. So they stood behind the people with chairs and
watched the fight. (13:15)
Anyway, they lived there until October until he was assigned to go to another base at
Boca Chica, FL, to learn how to be an all-weather air controller and would be there for a
month.
By this time, his marriage was 4 or 5 months old and his wife was still in Brooklyn. So
her mother came and stayed with her for the month he was gone.
So when he came back and the ship was to move to Norfolk before heading on to the
Caribbean.
So, on the night before Christmas, he and his wife packed up all of their possessions and
they drove home to Grand Rapids. From there, he would fly out to meet the ship.
Then the ship was going to leave Norfolk, which would be its home base, to an Airbase
on the Atlantic Coast just south of Georgia. So he flew down there, got on the ship and
went down to the Caribbean.
He was down there for 2 months or so.
Since the ship had just been re-commissioned, he and the others went down there to learn
how to run the ship.
The ship would come back to Norfolk around April and his wife came out to live there.
From then he would go out to sea and back, out to sea and back, etc. Either in September
or October 1955, the ship was going out to seas again.
So, they packed everything up in the car again, drove home to Grand Rapids and he
would return and go overseas again.
He was in the Mediterranean until February of the following year.
They did the same thing as they had always done before. Flying the planes, practicing
the intercepting, and other general practicing.
There were a couple of accidents. One time, when one of the pilots was getting ready to
launch, the cables that help bring them to flying speed did not let go of his wheel. He
would go under the ship in front and pop out behind them.
He was alright, but the destroyer behind them tried to pick him up and they cut his
stomach. (19:00)
�
He would practice shooting bombs of using the catapults that normally launch the planes,
to see how far they would go.
The second tour of the Mediterranean he would stop by Rome, Sicily, Athens, and
several other places. He spent Christmas in Naples one year. He got a chance to really
visit Rome. He also got a chance to visit the acropolis while in Athens. He really got
an opportunity to see history.
After seeing all these places, history really comes to life.
Anyway, his time would come to an end. He would finish serving his three years of
active duty.
After they dropped him off, he had to go through a bunch of physical examinations and
he was discharged from active duty, but still had to serve inactive duty.
Post Duty (22:30)
He had graduated thinking he would be going into civil engineering, but instead he
graduated OCS.
When he got out, he had not done any civil engineering for a while, so he went back to
MSU.
His wife was then teaching in another city, but finished up and moved back to Grand
Rapids.
He would join MSU in March to finish his graduate degree and move back to Grand
Rapids as well
They did not have any kids until November 1956.
The Navy kept after him to “improve himself.” So one time when they offered to help
him to improve himself, he sent in his degree and they promoted him. He would be in
inactive duty for 10 years until he was honorably discharged.
Remembering Stories (25:30)
When he stopped at the French Riviera one time, he had gotten the chance to tour the
mountain. As Naval Officers they were not allowed to wear their uniforms ashore, so
they always had civilian clothes on.
He took to this tour in France up in the mountains. They ended up at a perfume factory.
He came out with a headache and his clothes smelled so bad, he almost had to hang them
outside to air out.
When he was in Nice, France, he took a train into Italy, to Venice. He and a couple of
friends stayed in this hotel and toured Venice. He ended up getting a liquor bottle and
glasses as a remembrance. It was an amber color with silver patterns on the outside. He
never used it.
While he was touring Athens, he saw the Acropolis and saw the area where the first
Olympics were held. He also saw the Parthenon.
He also went to Sicily and saw Mount Etna. A neighboring mountain was erupting when
they went by.
They also stopped by Gibraltar. He says you have to know a lot of history of Spain.
There are lots of tunnels and interesting places to visit.
They would also go to the Sargasso Sea, twice.
�
They were supposed to stop in the Azores, but there was an epidemic going on, though he
does not remember what it was exactly.
He also remembers that the Atlantic can be very rough sometimes. One time when they
were coming into NYC for the weekend, they got involved in a hurricane before coming
in. The destroyers of the convoy were told to go their own way to get out of it the best
they could.
Water was coming over the top of the ship and getting into the planes. The planes, which
were tied down for the storm, were so damaged from the salt water that they could not fly
them off, but had to have them lifted off instead.
It was so strong that some of the metal doors were ripped open and the elevator pits were
filled with water.
The officers had very good conditions. He lived in a room with one other officer. Each
had a bed, a desk, and a closet to store stuff. They did not have a door, but a curtain.
Whenever they wanted their shoes shined, they would put them outside the curtain. They
would also have people who would make their bed and take care of the room for them. It
was very nice. (34:20)
They had to wear white shirts and ties and were dressed pretty formally most of the time.
When they ate, they had a ward room where they would eat. You had linen table clothes,
linen napkins, and a silver napkin holder with your name on it. They were served by
stewards and taken care of by them as well.
When they were ready to eat, they would wait for the executive officer to tell them to be
seated and eat.
When you brought guests on, and he brought his wife on a couple of times, you would be
seated at the executive officer’s table. First the executive officer would have him seat his
wife, and then the rest of them could be seated.
You had very good conditions. His wife used to say he was spoiled.
When you went to OCS, one of the classes you had was Naval etiquette. When you
graduated from this school, making sure that you took this course, you would get a
certificate saying that you were now an “Officer and a Gentleman”
The first time he got aboard a ship, they lined up 80 guys that he was to be responsible
for. In front of these guys, there were three petti officers who would help him run these
guys.
Because of the responsibility he had and the experience that he gained, he would help to
run the Kent County Airport Landing Field.
You gain so much knowledge doing this it is like another graduate degree.
He ended up signing off for millions of dollars of stuff. It was really different.
Some life lessons that he learned while in the service was to be honest, to be fair, do
things right and do the best you can always because people’s lives depend on you.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WinerL
Title
A name given to the resource
Winer, Loyd (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Winer, Loyd
Description
An account of the resource
Loyd Winer served as a Naval Officer in the Atlantic from 1952-1955. He was assigned first to an escort carrier, and later to the fleet carrier Ticonderoga. He cruised in the Atlantic and Mediterranean, and also had to supervise shore patrol in New York City.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Goodman, Ashlee (Interviewer)
Mabman, Sadie (Interviewer)
Marsman, Samantha (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-05-01
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db72f38e22a52a749468f370bc8d5610.mp4
d78179edddf9096469064e45c7972317
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/65391226d6626c0cd68b015c94749205.pdf
af7be1e7ce1f5148e3e6cc987b1cb2d0
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Charles Windisch
(30:55)
(00:10) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
Charles grew up in Allegan County, in Gibson, Michigan
His father was a gardener and his mother was a housekeeper. Neither of them lost their
jobs during the depression
He grew up in Holland, Michigan during the 30s and it was rough
He was finished with school by the time that Pearl Harbor was attacked
He had went to school through sixth grade and then began working on the coal docks
(1:50) The National Guard
•
•
•
•
•
He was already in the National Guard when Pearl Harbor was attacked
He had joined the National Guard when he was only sixteen years old
He had been too young for the National Guard to ship him overseas, so he then joined the
Navy
He had been in the National Guard for 1.5 years and had trained in Wisconsin
The other men he had trained within the National Guard were shipped out to New Guinea
(3:30) Naval Enlistment
•
•
•
•
He trained in Newport, Rhode Island for only 7 days
Charles and other men left on the USS Nashville for Europe and they continued their
training aboard the ship
Charles had specifically joined the Navy because he did not want to sleep in a foxhole
Most of the on the ship were fairly new to the environment
(6:00) The Ship
•
•
•
They left in December and were out at sea for nine months
They traveled to Hawaii though the Panama Canal
Charles spent most of his time on the ship in the carpenter shop
(7:30) The Raid on Japan
•
•
•
•
They were 500 miles from Japan when they finally were told the details of their mission
He saw all the planes take off from the air-craft carrier
They went back to Hawaii afterwards
Charles traveled through the Pacific to Guam, the Philippines, Okinawa, and Iwo Jima
(9:40) Guam
�•
•
•
Their ship was involved in naval battles
There was a major battle at night that was very scary; they were losing the fight at first,
but they made their way out of it
They had been hit by heavy Japanese shells
(11:10) Okinawa
•
•
•
There were kamikazes dropping all around them
Lots of smoke was put out by destroyers so Kamikazes could not see them
The smoke worked well because you could not even see your hand in front of your face
(12:15) Ship Life
•
•
•
The men had to take care of the water-tight doors and control the pumps
There was lots of work to keep them busy
They were shot at many times and took lots of battle damage
(14:50) Making Alcohol
•
•
•
•
•
The men made their own drinks on the ship and then a huge storm hit when they were all
drunk
The ship officers found out who had made the alcohol
The men were transferred and had to go to Frog-man school
They went to the Philippines and planted TNT along the beach to keep the Japanese off
the beach
He was sitting on the beach hiding under grass when the Japanese invaded
(19:40) Iwo Jima
•
•
They had finished with their Frog-man work
Charles was here while the invasion occurred and they were helping fight kamikazes
(21:35) Philippines Kamikazes
•
•
The back of their ship was hit and some of the men died
It took two months for the ship to be fixed
(22:50) Okinawa
•
The people here were jumping off cliffs
(23:40) The End of the War
•
•
•
•
They went from Pearl Harbor to San Francisco to be released
They dropped the ship off at a ship yard to be repaired
Charles ended up in Norfolk, Virginia and was released
He headed straight home on a train and everyone was happy and drinking
�(26:50) After the Service
•
•
Charles went back to working for the coal docks
He said that being in the service gave him a lot of experience
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WindischC
Title
A name given to the resource
Windisch, Charles (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Windisch, Charles
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Windisch grew up in Holland, Michigan during the depression. Although times were rough, his parents were both able to hold on to their jobs during the depression. Charles went to school through the sixth grade and joined the National Guard when he was only sixteen. He eventually enlisted in the Navy and traveled through the Pacific to islands such as Hawaii, Guam, and Okinawa. He served between 1941 and 1946 primarily on the USS Nashville, but also did a stint as a demolitions frogman.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Navy
United States--National Guard
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-06-29
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/496fd374585cb081a7100dc471f1ca53.m4v
fb17102d2e60166d6dad92d3ccfe0213
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/948a3f70078c644ee3e79bd7799000fe.pdf
6cb5490a3e041c10b45c582da6a10336
PDF Text
Text
Interview Notes
Interview Length (47:55)
Forrest Winchester
US Navy
Pre-Enlistment
Born in Kent County in 1925 (0:30)
Father was a tinsmith (0:45)
Was able to keep his job during the Great Depression (1:30)
Finished high school in 1943 (2:00)
Heard about Pearl Harbor while he was at his grandparents' house (2:15)
Thought he would be a part of the war (3:00)
Drafted straight from high school (3:05)
Training
Reported to Detroit, Michigan (3:30)
Went to the Navy because his cousin liked it (4:00)
Went to Great Lakes, Illinois, for basic training (4:45)
Adjusted as well as possible to training (5:05)
Didn’t do anything vigorous because of poor weather (6:00)
Took tests to determine what specialty (7:15)
Went to radio technician’s school in Gulfport, Alabama (7:30)
Never ridden a train before he went to Gulfport (7:45)
Lived in Quonset huts in AL (8:40)
Specifically trained to repair radios and radar (9:00)
Had no prior experience to this (9:10)
Stayed there for several months (9:40)
Went off base several times (10:00)
Was sent back to Great Lakes, then to San Francisco (11:40)
Boarded a troop ship, then headed out to Hawaii (11:50)
Was on the Lurline, a luxury passenger ship (12:00)
Came down with scarlet fever on the voyage (12:30)
Took 5 days to get to Hawaii (12:45)
Was in sick bay on the base for 2 weeks (13:20)
Service overseas
Took liberty in Honolulu once out of the hospital (14:15)
Was put on a British carrier afterwards, ferrying planes to the South Pacific (14:30)
Offloaded on the island of Manus, a supply island (15:40)
Worked there for several months, moving supplies on to ships (16:55)
Mainly went from the barracks to work (16:15)
USS Formoe
After, he was assigned to the USS Formoe in the engine room (17:20)
Was seasick for 3 days, but was not relieved of his work load (17:45)
�Read gauges and other basic things (17:50)
Formoe had been in the Atlantic, now was in the Pacific (18:10)
Ship had convoy duty between the Philippines to Okinawa (18:50)
Most danger came from submarines and floating mines (19:50)
Floating mines were taken care of by a rifle crew (20:45)
Chased several submarines, but never saw one surface (21:20)
Took close to 12 convoys across (22:30)
Had to take some convoys to Formosa, but terrible storms came up (23:00)
Came close to flipping, but never did (24:00)
Had worked his way up to the radio shack by that time (24:30)
Was great need for repair work (24:50)
Radio shack was a portion of the bridge (25:40)
Had a communications officer that kept tabs on all the personnel working in the radio (26:20)
Mostly slept when he was not on duty (27:20)
Had his own bunk, but had to share a rack with 2 other guys (27:45)
Showed movies only when in port, when they could put up a screen (28:20)
Had tables that would fold down in bad weather, only got soup then (28:50)
Food got them by, but wasn’t anything great (29:10)
Spent several weeks in each convoy (29:40)
East Asia
When they were in port in Okinawa, they would make smoke to disguise the ships from Japanese
air raids (30:40)
Saw some of the destruction from the harbor (32:00)
Offloaded many Australian troops in Tarakan, an island off of Borneo (32:45)
Were the artillery for those troops invading the island (33:40)
Had quite a few ships there (34:10)
Australians were pretty gung-ho veterans (35:00)
Stayed there several weeks, but never went ashore (35:10)
War ended on his way back to the Philippines (35:30)
Spent a week in Tokyo after the war, and could see the damage from the fire bombing (37:00)
Went ashore on liberty, and the Japanese were not friendly (37:30)
Wore a flag embroidered with the ship and his name on the back lining of his jacket (39:30)
Spent a while in Shanghai, everything was in good shape (40:00)
Also spent time in Hong Kong (41:00)
Once finished in Tokyo, he headed back (41:45)
Stopped at Midway Island, navigator stayed up all night to make sure they didn’t miss it (41:50)
Went to Hawaii next, then to San Francisco (42:35)
Should’ve been discharged at Great Lakes, but was discharged in San Francisco (42:45)
Post-service
Met some Air Force pilots who had just bought a plane and were flying from San Francisco to
Chicago (43:15)
Flew home with about 12 other guys (43:30)
Made it all in one trip, didn’t have to stop to refuel (44:10)
Took a train home to Grand Rapids (44:20)
Parents didn’t know when he was coming home, surprised them at the door (44:50)
�Applied to MSU and used the GI Bill (45:45)
Graduated with a degree in Chemical Engineering and went into the industry (45:50)
Worked for Kelvinator doing quality control, then moved on to consulting (46:15)
Retired twice, kept going back (47:20)
Military was a good interruption in life, taught him many things (47:45)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WinchesterF
Title
A name given to the resource
Winchester, Forrest (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Winchester, Forrest
Description
An account of the resource
Forrest Winchester was born in Kent County in 1925 and was drafted into World War II from high school. Forrest joined the Navy because his cousin enjoyed it, and left basic training as a radio repairman. He served on several ships in the Pacific, and during and after the war sailed to Borneo, Okinawa, China and Japan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-03-31
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80f57708de4785f062f78c272e1442d9.mp4
1635a50133631e0c0e07ae233ebe5712
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/353ab2fdc8719651453b2ca6d436a8d4.pdf
f848fb381162f8575727703c0dd7105b
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Morley Wilson
(01:28:03)
(00:15) Background Information
•
•
•
•
Morley grew up in a small town in Northern Michigan and went to school in Cadillac
His father was a farmer, working a small plot of land and he really enjoyed living on a
farm
Morley graduated in 1933 and then went to college in Cadillac for business
He graduated in just one year and then began working in Detroit
(03:50) Joining the National Guard 1937
•
•
Morley joined the National Guard to earn some extra money, but had not expected to be
fighting in any wars
He went through training in the summer and worked his way up to staff sergeant
(05:45) Resigning After Three Years
•
•
•
•
•
Morley resigned from service, but rejoined and had to start back as a private
He went to Louisiana for training, which was very rough and muddy
He worked for a signal company, helping the division and regiment to communicate
They helped to set up schools for radio training that held 50-60 students
Morley did not do much actual physical training because he was busy with office work
(14:15) Pearl Harbor
• After Pearl Harbor was attacked, training became more serious and most of the men then
realized that they would soon be sent overseas
• After the attack he became a supply officer
(17:00) The Trip Overseas
• They left on a ship from San Francisco and ran into a bad storm
• This caused even more people to be sea sick and everyone on the ship was in terrible
shape
• Morley had never been on such a big ship before and it was very frightening
• They stopped in Hawaii and then went to Australia
(20:30) Adelaide, Australia
• This area was a planned town that was very nice
• It was 30 miles away from their base and they often went there to visit and drink
• The Australians were very nice and let many service men stay at their houses
• They stayed in the area for 4 months
• While in Australia they still had not heard much about the Japanese or what they might
be doing in the future
�(23:40) Brisbane, Australia
• Here they established a camp
• Morley worked on establishing communications system
• They were preparing to go into New Guinea, but did not know much about the area or the
operation
• They also worked on practice landings on the beach
(25:50) Port Moresby, New Guinea
• They traveled by ship and Morley soon became a supply officer
• He was with the 126th infantry traveling through very rough and mountainous terrain
• Port Moresby was in a very small town
• General MacArthur placed his headquarters in a hotel while everyone else lived outside
in tents
• They were getting bombed by the Japanese at night
(31:20) A Visit by Eleanor Roosevelt
• Morley went back to Australia with his division
• In Australia they were visited by Eleanor Roosevelt, which boosted everyone’s morale
• It was a good experience, like a visit from your own grandmother and all the men loved
her
(36:40) Back to New Guinea
• He had been in Australia for about six months waiting for replacements for wounded
troops
• Many men had malaria and about half of his company was in the hospital
• He went back to New Guinea and helped to build the air strip with engineer companies
• Many planes had to take emergency landings on the strip before it was even finished
(50:40) The Philippines
• These were the first civilized natives that Morley had met and the living conditions were
much better than in New Guinea
• He became acquainted with many locals and still keeps in touch with some of them
• In New Guinea he did not have much contact with the locals
• Morley was working with the Joint Assault Signal Company and it was led by an
excellent executive officer
• He was in charge of shaping up the company and had to court martial some men that
were running a whore house
(01:01:10) Preparation for Japan
• Morley had to help requisition all new equipment because all the old stuff was weathered
and rusted
• He worked with 616 enlisted men and some officers that were employed as lawyers; they
were much harder to work with
• Near the end of the war Morley had to go to the hospital for hepatitis
• He was chosen in an allotment to return to the US, but was told that he would have to
return when they started to invade Japan
�•
•
He returned on a banana boat and the trip took 32 days
Japan was bombed 7 days after he had left for the US and he was very glad that he would
not have to return
(01:07:50) Back in the US
• Morley arrived in San Francisco and then took a troop train to Chicago
• He was the leading officer on the train and in charge of all the other men
• He became administrator of Kent Community Hospital and worked there for 20 years
�I have hesitated to include this poem be
cause I had a lot of help in writing it. A
very good friend who served with me in
New Guinea supplied much of the wording.
Tragically he was killed near the end of
WWII. Therefore, I dedicate this poem to
the memory of CWO Burl Chase.
CURRICULA REVISED
Though dull in academic Arts
And somewhat slow in simple math
With Grammar onlygrasped in part
My answers drew the teacher's wrath.
I never learned to calculate
In fact my Latin wouldn't pass;
I just declined to conjugate
My marks were lowest in the class
How Economics worried me
(appropriations ne'er sufficed)
No matter how I tried to see
My feeble mind was not erfticed.
If students had a stronger voice,
And all my classmates share this view;
Unanimously we make this choice
The subject most desired is youl
5
As my friends already know, I am very much
against war yet I realize that it may be forced
upon a people. I just do not believe that we
have done enough to prevent it and sometimes
we have deliberately provoked it.
THE THING ABOUT WAR
by Morley Wilson
It has such few attributes:
Comradership of a valorous sort
Self-sacrifice and loyalty come to mind
And maybe marching music.
It's not easy to think of others now
Weigh that against the odds:
Senseless destruction and waste.
Using our resources and
Waste of the.young-both friend and foe.
Impoverishing our heirs with debts
They did not contract.
Grief and suffering beyond belief
Fostering' hatred that lingers
Generations beyond the conflict.
And always blameless bystanders
Pay the price, for their leaders perfidy.
�I have always had a fondness for limericks.
If that's a sign of my intellect, so be it. This
was written in early 1943 somewhere in
New Guinea.
AHYOUTH
A lovely young lady of fashion
Was overloaded with passion.
To her lover she said
As she leaped into bed
Here's one thing, thank God,
They can't ration.
6
This was written in New Guinea in early
1943. Since then, my religion has become
more liberal and my desire for peace
stronger.
NEW YEARS DAY PRAYER
This day of resolute that brings
New calendars and bells that ring
With horns that blow and notes that chime
Another milestone passed by time.
This introductory day of cheer
Bears tidings of the coming year.
It carries all our hopes and dreams
Our wishful thinking and our schemes.
It represents our every prayer .
(For often more than just our share)
And while in reverence we're bent
Our selfish aims are all repent.
Material things we cherished dear
Have lesser value than last year.
Instead we ask for faith and love
And if our words are heard above
The prayer I want my God to hear
Is one for peace, this day, this year.
7
�These lines were written in July 1944 during a lull in
Then we'd like it, that's for sure,
operations. They express my distaste for military life and
for behind each palm tree peeking
for war in general. SWPA is an acronym for South West
there'd be natives "A-La-Mour".
Pacific Area, a zone of military operations, in World War II.
Let me tell you something, fellas.
Two long years since I left Frisco,
and I'm where it's hot as hell is,
SWPA
eating bully-beef and bisco.
And the buxom bosomed native
When they spoke to us of service
she's as black as shot-gun powder.
Under neath the Southern Cross,
But if you get ideas "Mative"
they said "No need to be nervous
she's protected by her odor
where McArthur is the boss".
There are coral snakes and vipers
Said that coconuts and oranges
and mosquitoes carry tanks.
grew like weeks in victory gardens.
Swaying palm trees hide Jap snipers
And the girls would all be gorgeous
dealing death to homesick Yanks.
without help from Lizbeth Arden.
It's a land where Aussies ravage.
Gullibly we heard them saying
Pilfering for them is lawful.
that our lot would be of ease
SWPA in any language
As they painted palm trees swaying
Stands for Somewhere Pretty Awful.
softly in the tropic breez.~\ioo'
Now if Tojo wants New Guinea
We were told that we'd be greeted
I'll not be the one to covet;
by lush natives bearing leis,
give it to the Nipon Ninny
and that we'd be dined and feted
with directions where to shove it.
"Save our dough for rainy days".
Now, if we were romance seeking
�r"'' ;"·.. ''":;'---- -,
I"I
WPN·1l4
2880 B.C.-1964 A.D.
The ex-Oldest Livitlg
Thing on EArth-
Was ancient wh#lJ Vwuz
conquered Mexico.
Wal berrt with ye'lrl wh,,,
CAesar entered GII.I,
Was old beyona ""INI1".
u·/J,Il Moses delivered
the Law,
Was Time's plSti",t watch.
mall whetl Cb~Rl built
his p)'ramid,
W 4S sliced by 4 chainuUl
to see boUi olJ it W/l.S.
Requiescat in Pacem
j
J
~~t' ;" .
jool.1f.OUI
-t
110m
MORLEY R. WILSON
---0--,
Local Teacher's
Husband Host to
Mrs. Roosevelt
\
:.-- ....+-'
t
Capt. Morley Wilson. husband
of Mrs. Mary Wilson. a local wom
an. who is teaching' the second
s;rade at Ferry school, is the com
manding' officer of a company in
Australia. which was visited by
"
Mrs. Franklin D. Roosevelt in her
swing trip to the southwest Pa
.r::» cific,
Mrs. Wilson was not sure of the
location of her husband until she
saw a news dispatch from that
part of the world stating' Capt.
~, Wilson had been host last Thurs
~ day to the famous lady. Mrs.
Roosevelt, had lunch at the Ameri
can Army company mess hall and
was served by Corp. Jacob A.
Young' of Caledonia. The post is
located neal' Brisbane.
Mrs. Martha Golden. a Red Cross
worker of Grand Rapids was
a mon, Ii: the service women Wh, 0 met
Mrs. Roosevelt and Sitts. Gerald
"Foley and Joseph DeMaar also of
Grand Rapids were two arrnv ser
s;eants who lunched with the fa
mous guest.
Mrs. Wilson was formerlv Miss
Mary Pellezrom and her husband
is a native of Ynsilanti.
t
r
------{)---,-
--
I
�PART II: THE WAR YEARS
The Company motored to Alexandria, Louisiana, taking about
seven days enroute. It was the first time most of the men had
seen people picking cotton and was a complete change in the
lives of about 300 young men. It was still hot during the day,
but nights were much colder than expected. Camp Beauregard was
a quagmire, not really prepared for an influx of 30,000 32nd
Division troops which arrived within days of each other.
Morley was assigned as clerk in the Division Signal
Office. His job was to do typing, filing and work on the
Standard Operating Procedures for the communications system of
the Division. This was a great experience and did much to
familiarize him with all the units in the Division.
The first winter was very cold, and there never seemed to
be enough blankets. The monotony of army life was occasionally
broken by trips to Alexandria or to honky-tonks. One night
they had the good fortune to hear Satchmo Armstrong and his
band. Another time, Morley accompanied Captain Oyler in the
command car driven by Private Cobb. On the way back to camp,
captain Oyler ordered the car to stop in the middle of the
bridge crossing the Red River. Oyler climbed up on the back
seat and urinated over the railing and into the Red River. He
said, "There, by God. I always wanted to piss in the Red
River." The stream of cars behind waited impatiently, and the
captain slept off his drunk on the way back to Beauregard. He
was, indeed, a character. He really was not a chronic
�alcoholic, but he occasionally went on a binge. He was very
popular with the enlisted men because he always put their
welfare ahead of everything else.
Mardi Gras time came, and Hank Farrell, John Langer and
Morley went to New Orleans. They managed to crash one of the
balls, and John Langer found himself a girlfriend. Morley and
Hank were a little shocked when she asked us to wait while she
changed her sweater. This she did in our plain view, and it
turned out that she had no undergarments. While Morley was in
New Orleans, Art and Josephine Wilson came from Detroit, and
they were treated to some good food -- perhaps the best they
had experienced.
In the spring, the Division moved from Beauregard to Camp
Livingston, a distance of about 50 miles. After the move, the
,.. .. ,.....' troops were very busy preparing for the "Louisiana Maneuvers."
One day, Lieutenant General Drum sent a teletype that he
would visit the Division at an early morning hour. He would
arrive at the airport at 800 hours. Corporal Sinclair was in
charge of the Division Message Center, and the message was,
unfortunately, pushed off the desk and onto the floor. Later
that day, you could hear Colonel Arnold (the Division signal
Officer) berating Sinclair. It went something like this,
"Private Sinclair, and I do mean BUCK-ASS Private Sinclair. Do
you realize that a three-star general arrived at our air-strip
today, and he rated a lS-gun salute!? Due to your ineptitude,
there wasn't even a private there to let a loud fart!"
�When Col. Arnold was angry, the veins always stood out on
his neck, and this time it seemed that the veins would burst.
Col. Arnold must have had a pretty good reaming from the
General to have been that agitated. There is a lesson here: if
you are in charge of a function, you are automatically to
blame for all errors, even if you didn't know about them. Of
course, the opposite is also true. Most people are willing to
take the credit even if they do little to earn it.
One day while filing Army Regulations, Morley happened to
run across one which stated that if a vacancy in a unit
occurred, a member of such a unit, with permission of his
Commanding Officer, could apply to fill that commission. It
also provided that the candidate must be examined by a board
of senior officers, and be appointed to fill that vacancy.
,," .• ,.;.0'
Morley knew there was a vacancy for a lieutenant, so he
immediately wrote a letter to Captain Oyler, asking to be duly
examined and appointed to fill the vacancy. This letter was
endorsed to Corps Headquarters, and a Colonel Leon Ryder was
appointed to head the three-man examining board. He was an old
"horse-cavalry" officer, and tough as a mule. Col. Ryder spent
about two months at 32nd Division, and really rode the
applicant every day. He would say things like, "You don't look
like officer material to me," or "What ever gave you the idea
you might become an officer?"
We happened to have a private in the Signal Office whose
name was Priestly. He was responsible for filing, and he never
managed to understand the Army filling system. Consequently,
�when something was lost, Priestly was always blamed. It was
standard to say, "Priestly must have misfiled it." One day
Col. Ryder asked Wilson to accompany him on an inspection of a
telephone cable which had been laid through a swampy area and
out to the airport. Col. Ryder, as always, was neatly dressed
and wearing his shiny cavalry boots. As often happens, when a
cable is buried, it leaves a soft area along the axis of the
cable. Col. Ryder inadvertently stepped into one of these soft
spots and fell face down in the wet mUd. He got up, wiped the
mud from his face, hands and uniform and said, "God-damn
priestly, anyhow." At this point, Morley literally cracked up
laughing, and he knew, at last, that Colonel Ryder had a
marvelous sense of humor. When the Colonel completed his
rating recommendations, Morley had a 98(+)% on his
" .......·examination, and his commission as 2nd Lieutenant was assured,
though it took several months to clear. He was greatly
pleased, because not many direct field commissions were given
without the benefit of Officers Candidate School or ROTC.
In May, 1941, Morley asked for permission to return home
to marry his love in Grand Haven. It was granted, and he
caught a train horne. Mary met him in Holland, Michigan, and on
May 17th, the minister, who had been Mary's landlord in Battle
Creek, performed the ceremony. He returned the unopened
envelope containing the money for his services, and the whole
world was to change for both of them.
In late May, 1941, Mary returned to Louisiana with Morley
in their "new 1941 Plymouth 2-door sedan". After much
�difficulty they found a place to live, but unfortunately,
Morley was in the field on maneuvers for weeks at a time. Mary
was miserably lonely, as she knew no one, and living
arrangements were not great. In August she decided to return
to Grand Haven. Mary drove the car home, and Morley, of
course, had to stay on.
Finally, his commission was approved, and Morley was
assigned as Motor Officer, Mess Officer and Supply Officer.
Anyone of those was a load, but it was usual that the new
officer get all the less desirable jobs.
One of the privates in the kitchen was variously called
"Hollywood", or "strawberry", or by his correct name,
"Smallwood". He was a willing worker, but there seemed to be
some missing rungs in the upper section of his evolutionary
" .. ,....' ladder. one day he asked for a week's furlough to visit a
girlfriend whom he wished to marry, up in Arkansas. He
returned on time and told this story around the campfire while
the men were out on Louisiana Maneuvers.
He said that he caught a train north, but had to make bus
connections to the town where his girlfriend lived. The bus
didn't leave until the next day, so he found a hotel room and
decided to explore the little town. While strolling along the
street, he noticed an attractive girl on the opposite
sidewalk. He gave her "the eye", and she gave it back, so he
motioned for her to cross the street and join him. She
motioned back for him to cross over, so he did. He asked her
several questions, only to discover that she was mute and
�totally unable to speak. So he invited her up to his hotel
room. She agreed, and they proceeded up to his room. At this
point, he removed his own clothes, but she declined to
undress. When pressed by "Strawberry", she held up five
fingers. He responded by holding up 2 fingers, meaning two
dollars. She stuck to the original price, and he upped the
ante to 3 fingers. She held firm. "Hollywood" said, "Well, she
could see that she had me, so I gave her the five dollars."
The next day he caught the bus to Arkansas and was met by
the sister of his girlfriend. It seems his prospective bride
could not get off work at that time of day. He reported that
the sister was quite attractive, so he said to her, "Why don't
we get married?" She agreed, and he came back without ever
seeing the girl he originally intended to marry. But he
~'-'reported,
"Lootenaw Wilson, I ain't never been sorry because I
have slept with a lot of women, but none better than this
sister that I married."
Mary returned to Louisiana in September, and she and
Morley managed to find a place to live. A vote in Congress
extended the tour of active duty of all enlistees and National
Guard units. By then most of the men realized they were "in
for the duration."
On Dec. 7, 1941, Bob Bethke and Ella Bethke invited Mary
and Morley for a drive around the Alexandria countryside. When
they returned to Camp Livingston, the guard at the gate said,
"Did you hear that the Japs just bombed Pearl Harbor, and that
all leaves are being cancelled?" Thinking at first it was just
�a joke, the foursome soon found out what a serious event this
was.
During December, Morley was ordered to Fort Monmouth, New
Jersey, for a three month course in telephone and telegraph
installation and repair. He managed to find a furnished
apartment in nearby Bradley Beach, located right on the
seashore.
There, he and Mary met and liked Lt. Jim Batson and his
wife, Jane. They had an adorable baby named Penny and lived in
the same apartment building. Thus started a long friendship.
Jim talked with a Texas drawl and used phrases the Wilsons had
never heard. One morning, when out in the dusty field, a big
black convertible driven by a beautiful blonde raised a lot of
dust and scattered the troops along the road. Jim dryly
u·
.
stated, "My, she's so sweet I'll bet her shit candies." That
is just one example of the type of humor he was often
spouting.
Another time, Mary and Jane Batson (Jim's wife) went to
New York City. Jim and Morley stayed with little "Penny"
Batson, and when the women did not return at the appointed
time, they figured out a plan. They emptied the whiskey bottle
into an empty milk bottle, and when the car pulled up they
gave Penny a bottle of milk. Then as the women came up the
steps, they took the bottle away from her to start her crying.
Then Jim and Morley laid down on the floor beside the empty
whiskey bottle and pretended to be "out cold." You can imagine
how angry the women were until the men burst out laughing.
�f
l
While at Fort Monmouth, Mary and Morley visited New York
city several times and saw several shows. Among them were
"Hellza Poppin" and the Rockettes. They were thrilled by the
glamour of it all.
Then one night they looked out the apartment window and
saw a tanker burning out in the ocean. It brought one up
short, and they knew there was a war on. A few days later,
they visited NYC dock area and saw the Normandy, a large
French passenger ship, sabotaged and lying on its side at the
pier.
Morley did not find the course too difficult, and one day
captain Frank Lidke, who had been transferred to Ft. Monmouth,
and the Wilsons took a ride in the countryside. They visited
the spot where General Washington crossed the Delaware. This
N ......
recalled a cartoon in which Sad Sack is looking at all the
orders on an Army bulletin board. He keeps tearing off the top
memos until he reaches the one at the very bottom. It says,
"Fallout and cross the Delaware." Signed: G. Washington.
While at Fort Monmouth, Morley took his bride of less than
a year to visit Captain Oyler, who had been transferred to the
Signal School area. Mrs. Oyler answered the knock, and Leon
sat on the commode with the bathroom door wide open, and in
plain sight. Mrs. Oyler said, "Leon, shut the door!" He
replied, "What for? She's seen more than I've got." He had not
changed.
During the wire course at Fort Monmouth, the 32nd Division
moved to Fort Devens, Massachusetts. Everyone speculated that
�the next move would be to fight the Germans in Europe. Morley
returned to his unit and found a rather unsatisfactory place
for Mary to live with Gene and Flossie Hutchinson in Athol,
Mass., near the Fort. They had stopped at a gas station while
looking for a place to rest, and Gene Hutchinson said, "Come
and stay with us." They accepted on the spot. Flossie was good
company for Mary.
Morley was given the job of getting the Company and
Division equipped with signal equipment. One trip to located
needed supplies took him out to the very tip of Cape Cod. In
other times he would have appreciated it much more.
Soon, in April, the men were loading their equipment on a
train, and Mary had to leave again for Michigan. Eileen
Kidder, Betty Worden and Mary drove back (in convoy) to
#' .. ,....
Michigan. Betty drove much too fast, and Mary was fearfully
trying to keep up. Such was the Army life, always saying,
"Good-bye" with no certain knowledge that they would ever see
each other again.
The train was loaded, and men of the 32nd Division were
soon in San Francisco. Morley was assigned to be loading
officer for our troops on the converted passenger boat, the
Ancon. His responsibility was to get the equipment on the
ship. From there, the Merchant Marines were responsible for
placing it and securing it. The loading was done very quickly,
and the reward was 2 days of freedom while the other boats
were going through the same process. Two days to explore San
�56
Francisco! He made the most of it and took Mary to some of the
same spots twenty years later.
Finally, the convoy of nine ships sailed under the bridge
and out into the Pacific. They started zig-zagging and stayed
fairly close to their lone escort, a corvette. They were not
far from land when the sea became very rough. Since Morley had
just come off from a day's rest, he was assigned as duty
officer and went down two decks where the men of the 32nd
Signal Company were quartered. The ship began to toss and
roll, and no one relieved Morley until the next day. The seas
were so rough that all the men were sick, and most of them
used their helmets for up-chucking. As soon as the helmet was
put down, it went rolling across the deck spilling its
nauseating contents and making it very difficult to walk
", ....... without slipping and falling. Finally, it began to grow
calmer, and relief came, but almost all the men and officers
were desperately sick. Most of the ship's crew were also sick,
and many said it was the worst storm they had ever
experienced. A lot of the dishes in the dining room had been
thrown out of their racks and were broken. Morley was quite
frightened when he tried to get back to the dining room,
because big waves rolled across the deck. One l05mm Howitzer
and one 2 1/2 ton truck broke loose from their moorings and
went overboard. When Morley finally reached the dining room,
he had it all to himself. No one was able to eat, so he
enjoyed a good meal.
�After the storm cleared, it was found that the nine ships
were scattered, and only occasionally did one see another
ship. They rendezvoused at Oahu in plain sight of Waikiki
Beach and Diamond Head. None of the Army personnel was allowed
to go ashore, and after a few hours the re-assembled convoy
again headed southwest. They crossed the equator on April
30th, and saw no more land for several days. News was released
that Corregador had fallen and that McArthur was in Australia.
By this time, the men were quite certain of their destination.
One morning someone called attention to a huge land mihe
bobbing along beside the Ancon. It was perhaps 100 yards on
the port side. The pilot kept a safe distance, and the
corvette escort circled back. The men were told that it was a
Japanese mine, and that the corvette destroyed it, though it
~"''-''''
was impossible to see the action.
On one cool May morning, after 20 days at sea, the convoy
pulled into the harbor at Adelaide, Australia. They were
welcomed warmly by the Australian townspeople. Most of the men
were impressed by this beautiful city in a remote part of the
world.
After the boats were unloaded, the Signal Company trucked
its men and wares to a camp near Sandy Creek, about 35 miles
from Adelaide. It was rustic, slightly mountainous and rather
primitive. The troops soon settled into a routine of training
and preparing for what was assumed to be a conflict with the
Japanese. Already, the Japanese had bombed ports in northern
Australia, and it was assumed they would attempt to land.
�McArthur and the PT boats from Corregidor were in
Adelaide. One evening, Morley and several other officer went
to a pub and several of the nurses from Corrigedor were
perched atop the piano and lustily singing. The song went
something like this.
"We're the battling bastards from Bataan
No Mother, No Father, No Uncle Sam."
They were a hardy crew, but they had already seen more
action than the men of the 32nd, so they were respected.
The men were welcome in Australian homes. Some even
bragged that they had a key to someone's house and that they
could go there any time, eat, drink and sleep, whether the
family was home or not. Needless to say, some of these
privileges were abused by the troops. They had never seen such
,.. .. ,....'
openness and generosity as offered by the grateful Australian
hosts.
One of the homes visited by Morley and some other officers
of the Signal Company was that of a very wealthy banker,
sheep-station owner and collector of fine arts and also fine
wines. Tom was never noticeably inebriated, but he almost
always had a glass of champagne in his hand. His home was a
very large, many bedroom type, by far the plushest Morley had
ever visited. He gave several parties and loved to show off
his many paintings and tell you about his vast land holdings.
It should be added that he did this in a matter-of-fact way,
not as a braggart. He was thoroughly likeable.
�It was not until about 1981, when Morley and Mary were
hiking in the lower flats of the Grand Canyon, that they met a
couple from Adelaide, Australia and asked about Tom. The woman
knew immediately to whom Morley was referring and said that
her sister had been Tom's private secretary. She also said
that he had died a few years previously. This is related
simply to support the "small world" theory. Tom's last name
has long since been forgotten by the writer, but he was one of
the most generous persons Morley ever encountered, and that
was in a country where generosity was endemic.
After a couple of months in the Adelaide area, Morley was
assigned to an advance detachment of signal and Engineer
personnel to go to Camp Cable, about 30 miles from Brisbane,
Queensland, to set up communications for the 32nd Division.
i-f'., .... ~_.
Trucks and personnel were loaded on the narrow gauge trains,
and they started north. Eventually, they unloaded and
travelled by convoy for a few hundred miles, across some very
memorable parts of Australia. Later, a novel by Colleen
McCullough, Thornbirds, described the very area through which
the convoy travelled.
At one point, the convoy encountered a group of Aborigines
who were tearing apart stumps and logs in an effort to obtain
grubs and ants. It was startling to witness a naked native
sitting on a log eating the unwashed grubs, without caring
that his genitalia had been in direct contact with the quarry.
The flies were so thick that sanitation was pretty non
existent.
�Finally, the convoy reloaded on another rail line and
arrived in Camp Cable. Morley's task was to install a
switchboard, telephone lines to major units of the division,
organize a message center and set up a radio station. This was
accomplished before the arrival of the main body of troops.
A great deal of training was initiated during the next few
months, and in September, 1942, units of the Division were
moved to Port Moresby, New Guinea, by airlift and by boat.
Some units were airlifted and some came from Brisbane by boat.
Morley was placed in charge of Signal Supply operations and
helped to load cargo planes (mostly C-47s) for air dropping
supplies to units who were in the Buna area or who were making
a valiant effort to cross the Owen-Stanley range. This was one
of the epic marches of WWII, and casualties from dysentery,
,..··..·malaria, Dengue Fever and so-called jungle rot outnumbered
casualties from enemy action.
Morley accompanied some supplies "over the hump" for an
airdrop which was as frightening as anything he had ever done.
The C-47 pilots were magnificent and knew just when to tilt
the wings through the narrow mountain passes. A day later,
Morley learned that a similar air drop had failed when the
chute tangled with the plane's aerlon controls and all were
lost, including a Lt. Col. who was a friend.
Lt. General Eichelberger arrived and was sent to take
charge of the Buna campaign. He sent a radio message (through
out radio facilities) back to McArthur saying that Col. Mott
was to be decorated for heroic action in the Buna area.
�Subsequent investigation apparently proved that Matt had not
represented his actions accurately, and Eichelberger sent a
later message sending Matt back to McArthur's headquarters for
"reassignment". In one of the few humorous moments of this
whole campaign, McArthur sent a radio message to Eichelberger
saying, "You decorated him, now what do you want me to do with
him?"
In a less humorous tone, McArthur sent repeated messages
to Eichelberger saying, in effect, to "capture Buna today" or
else. Under that kind of pressure, Eichelberger relieved the
beloved General Harding and replaced him with General Gill,
not so beloved.
Two of the men of the 32nd Signal Company were decorated
with the Silver Star during this campaign: Lt. Philip Winson
# .. _ .
and Private Eddie Miller. In the case of Eddie Miller, a
former ballet dancer from New York city, it was interesting to
note that he was slight of build, quiet and something of a
loner. Some of the 'macho types" in the company had fun
kidding about having a date with Eddie. At Buna, one unit was
cut off around Buna Mission. It was important to maintain
communications with them, and this was made difficult by the
fact that the Japanese had machine gun fire covering the Kunai
grass flats leading to the unit. No one wanted to volunteer
for the runner's job of carrying messages to these forces.
Eddie Miller stepped up and carried the message canister,
running like a deer through the Kunai grass being raked by
enemy fire. He made several trips. From that dayan, Eddie
�Miller was never the butt of any wisecracks by his fellow
soldiers.
It was at this time that we learned that a friend, who
happened to be an aide to the General, had been hit by
Japanese fire, and he eventually died. Sadly, he was injured
and our troops could hear his pleas. for help. Several attempts
to reach him only caused more casualties, and after the second
day, his voice was stilled forever. All of us wished that he
could have been killed outright.
Another acquaintance, Sergeant Herman Boescher, was a
German by birth and escaped from Germany early in the war. He
came to the USA by way of French Morocco and was known to be a
very brave soldier. At Buna Mission, he found his unit cut
off, his commanding officer killed, and himself fighting for
#···-his life. His heroics won the day, and shortly after his unit
was re-united, he was busy preparing for further action. At
about this time, General Eichelberger was in the area and idly
talking with some of the men. Boescher, not aware of the rank
of Eichelberger, is reported to have said, "Come on, get off
your ass and help us." The General was so impressed that
Herman Boescher was promoted from Sergeant to captain on the
spot. It was a wise step, as he was later to be a thorn in the
side of the Japs. More about him later.
Morley spent all of his time at the "rear echelon" at Port
Moresby. Finally the 32nd Division was able to secure the Buna
area, and the company was awarded the Presidential unit
citation.
�The Japanese sent frequent air raids over the Port Moresby
area, and while it did disturb their sleep, none of the signal
Company personnel were battle casualties. It became fairly
easy to detect the "Washing Machine Charley" sound of the Jap
planes from those of the Allied Forces. Occasionally, a bomb
was dropped near the Signal area, and a lot of ack-ack
shrapnel fell. Morley remembered one night when Lt. Jack Clark
and he raced to a bomb shelter. Morley won the race, and Jack
landed on top of him. The shelter had a corrugated steel roof
(makeshift) and just after they both got into the crude
dugout, several pieces of ack-ack shrapnel fell on the roof.
The pieces were very hot and could not be handled for several
minutes.
Burl Chase, a Warrant Officer who did a major share of the
""-.+0- loading of Signal supplies for the Buna area,
often shared
books to read and became a very good friend to Lt. Wilson (now
a 1st Lt.). Burl taught him how to play cribbage. They spent
many a long evening enjoying this game, and Morley found it
very relaxing. In fact, he won quite a few hundred dollars
over the course of several months. Sometimes the card games
would be interrupted by rats trying to get into personal
belonging~_
One person would hold the flashlight and the other
would attempt to stab the rat with a pocket knife. Only once
was Morley successful, but neither Burl nor Jack Clark had
better success.
One evening, Burl found a long, large piece of rope -
about 12 feet long and perhaps four inches in diameter with a
�knot twisted in one end. It made the rope look like a large
snake, which gave them an idea. They tied a small fishing line
onto the "head end" and ran the fishing line through Jack
Clark's tent. Later, when Jack was resting on his bedroll,
they gently pulled the fishing line, dragging the "snake"
through Jack's tent. Of course Jack heard the commotion, saw
the fake snake, and raced out of his tent screaming. From
their secret hiding place, they pulled the fake snake on out
and quietly disposed of it. No mention was made of it, but
several weeks later, someone from the Detroit area (also
Jack's home) posted an item on the company bulletin board from
the Detroit News, telling how a giant python had come through
Lt. Jack Clark's tent. It seems Jack's wife had given Jack's
letter to the Detroit News, and they had made quite a news
item out of it. Those who knew the real story got a big laugh,
but no one dared to tell Jack the truth.
Those were the kinds of things one did to keep from going
crazy. What with lack of progress in the Buna area, frequent
air-raids, boredom, and infrequent mail delivery, everyone had
his own favorite diversion.
One evening, a number of Jap planes came over, and a group
of new P-38s spotted them. A dog-fight ensued, and the Jap
planes had finally found their match. The P-39s and P-40s
could not climb as well, and certainly could not maneuver with
the Jap Zero, but the P-38s shot down several Jap planes and
routed the rest of them, until they were out of sight of the
ground troops.
�Finally, after the battle for Buna had been won, the
General's Aide passed through Port Moresby on his way back to
Australia. He stayed in Port Moresby overnight and regaled the
Signal Officers with stories about the battle. He said that he
accompanied General Gillon an inspection trip right after the
fighting ended. They came upon a small grass shack, far
removed from the fighting. The General walked into the shack
where a T-5 corporal was sorting mail. The Corporal was
befuddled and mumbled something like "Hello, Sir." The General
said, "Corporal, didn't your commanding officer teach you how
to report to a General?" The corporal replied, "I guess he
did, but I am a little bit rusty, and you surprised me." with
this the General said, "Now, I'll be the Corporal and you
pretend you are the General. Go out, and I'll get behind the
" ....... mail counter and show you how it should be done." So the
Corporal obediently walked out and then re-entered the mail
shack in a rather sloppy manner. General Gill snapped to
attention, clicked his heels, saluted the Corporal and said in
a voice that could be heard for a city block, "ATTENTION!"
The Corporal replied, "That's O.K. corporal, go ahead with
your work."
One day, Burl Chase located an airman who had somehow
obtained some beautiful Oriental pajamas. Morley purchased a
matching pair of woman's pajamas and robe. When he mailed them
to Mary, Burl insisted that he should say that they were from
Burl Chase, because Morley had recently won more than 50
dollars, the cost of the pajamas.
�General Gill felt that he had a special mission to make
the 32nd Division into a "spit and polish" outfit. He
frequently relieved officers for what seemed like very minor
deficiencies, and his Chief-of-Staff, Colonel Hettinger, was
even more bent upon the strictest discipline.
It is doubtful if more than one out of a hundred had
escaped the dreaded malaria. Morley was very lucky. When
quinine supplies ran low, he decided to conserve the company's
supply and to use the new sUbstitute called attibrine. As was
later proven, attibrine was more effective than quinine, and
it was a lucky thing for Morley. He did develop a fever and
was sick for about two weeks. It was finally diagnosed as
dengue fever, better know in southern states as "Bone-Breaker
Fever". While it was quite painful, it was not a recurring
se, .......,
illness, like malaria. At any rate, he recovered. Malaria is
spread by the Anopheles mosquito, and Dengue by the Aedes
variety. Both were in oversupply in New Guinea.
The Signal Company rode a Dutch tramp steamer back to
Australia. It was a very old boat, the anchor hoist was
broken, and the troops had to "hand up' the huge anchor by
manpower. The food was poor, but Burl Chase did manage to
obtain a large round of genuine Roquefort cheese from the
Dutch officers' mess. They shared this wonderful specimen for
the entire trip back. The troops landed in Brisbane and went
immediately into quarantine to a beach about 40 miles south of
Brisbane near Southport. After about three weeks of fenced-in
�seclusion, the Division returned to Camp cable, west of
Brisbane.
Just before leaving New Guinea, Morley learned that he was
promoted to Captain and would now command the Signal Company.
It was a busy time. Replacements soon brought the company back
up to strength -- over 400 men and a dozen officers. The new
troops had to be trained. Schools were set up for Morse code,
radio and telephone repair, and new procedures had to be
written for future operations.
Many of the troops ran high fever (104-105 degrees), and
some were so sick that they were sent home. General Gill had
little sympathy and ordered Col. Warmenhoven, the Division
Surgeon, to discharge everyone from the hospital whose fever
did not exceed 103 degrees. Warmenhoven was so upset by this
order that he wrote to Washington, D.C. The letter was
intercepted by censors, and Warmenhoven was apparently fearful
of court martial. At any rate, he took his ~ life with his
Colt 45.
On a lighter note, Colonel Lester Dorr, also from Grand
Rapids, Michigan, was the Division Chaplain, and a very fine
person. A group of officers was sitting in the mess hall one
evening, when he started to tell a story about his son back
home. It seems the son took his date for the evening to the
movie. He stood in line to buy his ticket, but inadvertently
dropped the tickets after leaving the window. Another large
fellow picked up the tickets, and Lester's son said, "Say, I'm
sorry, but those are my tickets." The overbearing stranger
�said, "Oh, I have as much right to them as anyone, and
possession is 9/10ths of the law." At about this point in the
story, General Gill walked into the mess hall and immediately
showed a strong interest in Lester's story. Well, the big
bully was too much for young Dorr to fight, so he just got in
line again and bought two more tickets.
It just happened that young Dorr and his date were seated
right next to the couple who had stolen his tickets. Since
Dorr and his date had been late in being seated, the bully and
his date left before young Dorr did. Dorr noticed that the
bully's date had left her purse in the seat, so he took it
home with him. General Gill said, "Good for him. What was in
the purse?" Lester hesitated and then replied, "Three dollars
and sixty cents." Some of the people at the table, including
Morley, knew that the answer was supposed to be, "Bull shit,
same as the story." Of course, Lester had to change the punch
line, and nobody let on. Lester did get roasted after the
General departed.
An unusually tough inspection of various companies was
conducted by the Chief-of-Staff, and Morley was told to
prepare for a visit from a VIP. He was not to mention her
name, but almost everyone knew, because Eleanor Roosevelt was
currently reported to be making a tour of the SW Pacific area.
In censoring the letters of the men, it was noted that
most of them were upset by the extensive preparations being
made for the "secret visitor". Some made remarks in their
�letters, saying, "Why don't the wives of famous people stay
home where they belong."
Eleanor Roosevelt was escorted by Lt. General
Eichelberger, and Morley met her at the road leading into the
company mess hall. He had pre-selected a group of battlehardened non-corns to eat with her. He introduced each one, and
while the meal was far from typical army food, no one
complained. After eating, she spoke to the me\n and chatted
informally with the men and officers. She said her husband had
asked her to make the trip as he was unable to do so himself.
She had been into other theatres of war, and soon the men were
completely won over by her simple motherly charm and sincere
interest.
Mrs. Roosevelt recounted how she had been in London
,.. .. ,.....' recently, which was being heavily bombed at the time. She
asked one woman about her husband, and the lady said he was
"doing fine, the coward joined the army." That brought quite a
laugh.
During the visit it started to rain, so Morley went
outside and got the chauffeur of Mrs. Roosevelt's car to
maneuver through the trees and get as close to the mess hall
as possible. General Eichelberger came out and saw what Wilson
was doing. He said, "Wilson, what in hell are you doing?"
Morley replied, "Sir, I am moving the car as close to the
building as possible so Mrs. Roosevelt will not get wet."
General Eichelberger said in a loud voice, which could easily
be heard in the mess hall, "Hell, she's human, just like the
�rest of us. Put that car back where it belongs." It was plain
that he did not like his assignment of being the First Lady's
escort, and she must have known it. McArthur should have
honored her by accompanying her himself, but short of that, he
should have provided a respectful escort.
It was a day Morley would always remember. He would see
her again in better times, but her dignity and gentle calm
were very special. It was noted, after her visit, that the
tone of the letters which the GIs wrote home were entirely
different. Some of them said, "it was like a visit from your
own family." She had completely won their respect in the
couple of hours she had visited the company. She was a truly
beautiful person and so gracious.
Lt. Col. Lidke was the Division Signal Officer. For many
"'........ reasons, he shunned meetings, and when General McArthur held a
planning conference, he sent Wilson to represent the Signal
interests. The Chief-of-Staff walked out on a small stage and
yelled, "Attention!" Everyone stood, and after a considerable
pause, McArthur strode (or strutted) out on the stage, and
after another rather lengthy pause, he said, "At ease,
gentlemen." He was obviously an actor. Most Generals do not
pause for effect. At least one officer felt it was theatrics.
It did not generate respect, but it did cause resentment.
It was Morley's first of two encounters with the four-star
General. The second was under similar circumstances, and a
carbon copy of the first. He was later to know some hospital
�Co5
administrators and a few school superintendents who were
almost as pompous.
The elements of the Division were being trained in landing
exercise. It was obvious that they were going to be island
hopping from here on in. Finally, they were loaded in ships
and, after a brief stop, were dispatched to Goodenough Island.
The Japs had abandoned this island shortly before the 32nd
landed in September of 1943.
within a month, several of the
men became ill, and some
died with typhus. A field hospital with nurses was sent to the
island, and they cared for those unfortunates who were ill.
That was the first time Morley had seen a nurse in the combat
area, and he was impressed by their conduct.
Lt. Clark and Morley pitched their shelter under a very
#'., . . . .'
large tree. One day, the Division was ordered to get ready to
move. After a brief stop in Finschhafen, part of the Company
was sent to accompany a task force to Saidor. The rest of the
Division, now stationed at Hollandia, followed within a few
days. This was the first time Morley had crawled off a liberty
ship and down the net onto a landing craft. He was not a very
good swimmer and, with about 50 lbs of gear, it was well that
his timing was correct and he jumped squarely into the LCT.
When the rear echelon caught up, it was learned that a
storm had toppled the huge tree back on Goodenough Island, and
surely Clark and Wilson were lucky to have moved the day
before the storm.
�The Division stayed at Saidor for a few months. Their
mission was to cut off the retreating enemy. The Japanese
tried to by-pass Saidor, and went deep into the swamps and
mountain ranges. The Americans went far up the trails forcing
the Japs further inland. Since their supplies were cut off,
many starved to death, or were so ravaged by disease that they
died. Seldom did they just surrender.
One stormy day, Col. Lidke called Morley. He had been
listening to a radio in his command car and learned that
American pilots had been bombing Rabaul and were running out
of fuel on their return trip. The two officers rushed out to
the partly completed air-strip about a mile away and sat in
the car adjacent to the air-strip. The saw several planes
crash land, both fighters and bombers. Some were out of gas,
some were already damaged from ack-ack fire, and some were
just looking for a place to land. As they watched, they also
listened to the frantic pilots' conversation on the radio. One
P-38 pilot refused to make another circle around the strip,
saying he was out of gas and if anyone got in his way he was
going to shoot them down. He belly-landed, and they wondered
about his lack of fuel because he left a burning strip of
gasoline for a half-mile down the air field.
Another fighter plane almost landed on top of a huge B-24
bomber. As the bomber taxied down the very short runway, the
crew opened up the doors and waved to those who were watching.
They celebrated too soon, because they ran head-on into
another smaller plane, and both exploded in a fiery ending.
�After watching the loss of several planes and personnel,
Morley re-thought his envious attitude towards the Air Force.
True, they usually had choice food, drink and entertainment,
but theirs was a hazardous career and as uncertain as the
infantryman's. Something like 40 American planes were lost
that day, and it was hard to estimate the number of bright
young men who died on this terrible Thursday.
A PT Squadron was based down the coastline about 20 miles,
and one of the naval officers called on the Division to
furnish telephone communications. Of course, they had radio
but needed an alternate in case of radio failure. Wilson
arranged for a telephone cable to be run to them. It turned
out to be the "millionaire squadron", with a lot of names like
Vanderbilt. He was not then familiar with the Kennedy name and
would always wonder if it could have been him or someone else
who rewarded him with a rubber mattress (pure gold) and two
bottles of genuine Scotch (pure platinum). One of the Division
officers was taken out on a night patrol by the PT Captain and
witnessed the sinking of several Jap barges. He told a
gruesome story about the Japs being tossed a rope and, as they
approached the PT Boat, being disposed of in an efficient
manner. They then went just out of range of Jap guns, and
blinked messages to the Jap positions ashore. The content of
the messages did not vary much from their favorite, "Fuck
TOJO~"
One always wondered if the Japs could read the uncoded
English messages.
�The Division decided to make an amphibious landing about
40 miles up the coast at Yalou, New Guinea. The second
battalion of the 126th Infantry was chosen for the assault,
and a team of Signal personnel was dispatched to augment their
communications. Morley was to ride in a PT Boat along with
General Gill, Col. Bradley (Omar's nephew), and a few other
brass hats. Morley took two carrier pigeons and some pre
written messages, from which to select the appropriate one,
and he had a wonderful view of the landing. Fortunately, there
was no enemy opposition, and the troops waded ashore with no
casualties. Morley selected the prepared message which read,
"Landed successfully -- no opposition." This was arguably the
last combat message sent by carrier pigeon, as the Army signal
Corps discontinued their use of pigeons after WWII. Anyway,
t<"- .....~,
the pigeon returned to Saidor and delivered the message before
the field units could set up their radios and make contact. It
was not a very exciting day, excepting for the light shelling
that some smaller navy vessels did just before the landing. It
was fortunate that there was no resistance because the PT Boat
came within a few hundred yards of shore and would have been
an easy target for a mortar shell or even a 50 calibre machine
gun.
One night, some of the main telephone lines went out
between Division and the regiments. since the Japs frequently
operated at night, Wilson, Lidke, and a wire repair team set
out in Jeeps to find the break. Wilson took along one of the
bottles of Scotch, and it was not long before they found the
�trouble. It was not the Japs who had done the damage, but
their own Tank Destroyer units. They were happy, in more ways
than one, because repairing lines in the dark is neither fun
nor without peril.
The Division next moved to Aitape where they were to stay
for several months. At first, the Company was located in a
thick jungle area where they had to cut their way in with
machetes. Dead Japs were scattered along the shore, and there
were damaged landing crafts, guns and equipment strewn around
the area. They finally bulldozed roads through to the ocean,
where a picture-perfect tropical setting awaited them. The
beach was mainly sandy, and the waves were ideal for surfing.
The weather was warm. One could inflate the cotton mattress
covers and ride a wave in for several hundred yards. A coconut
~.'-"~'
plantation had been partly destroyed, but there were enough
trees left standing so that one had to be careful at night or
a huge coconut might fallon him while he was sleeping.
The enemy was very stubborn, and our troops pushed them
back into the treacherous jungles and into the mountainous
interior. It was here that Col. Bradley's command met serious
opposition. General Gill went up to the river's bank where
Bradley's regiment was stalled, and inquired as to what was
holding up the progress. Bradley replied that the Japs had a
machine gun set up on the other bank. He told Gill that he had
a company dispatched upstream to cross the river and do a
flanking movement to wipe out the Japs. Gill walked out to the
bank of the stream and turned to Bradley and said, "I order
�you to cross this stream at once. There is no sign of the
enemy on the other bank -- nothing but some native pigs." Gill
went back to Division headquarters. Soon, the Division message
center delivered the following message from Bradley to Gill.
"As directed, crossed the Driniumor River at 300 hours. No
contact with the enemy, but Lt. Col
and 17 enlisted men
killed by native pigs." The next day Bradley was relieved of
his command and sent back to the States. There ended the life
of a west Point officer and 17 enlisted men, who were
needlessly sent to their deaths by a general too anxious to
make a name for himself. Bradley later became a 2-star
general, himself, and was assigned to the Pentagon where he
had charge of the promotion of general officers. Needless to
say, Gill never got his third star, and neither did his son
in-law colonel get to be a brigadier general. It was a sad
farewell for the troops and friends of Bradley. Morley always
felt that Bradley was the best officer he had ever known.
Wilson had rolled up the second bottle of Scotch (given to
him by the PT Squadron Commander) inside his bedroll. When the
bedroll finally came off the ship, weeks after troops, the
bottle was broken in a thousand pieces. Every night when he
went to bed he could smell the Scotch which had saturated his
bedroll. There is a lesson here somewhere.
One day, a message was received that one of the combat
teams was in need of some signal equipment. It was decided to
drop the equipment from a Piper Cub plane. It was also a
chance to tryout some portable radio equipment. Morley and
�'71
the pilot flew over the interior and found the drop area,
without difficulty. The equipment was dropped, and they
circled until they could see it being recovered by the ground
troops. It was a beautiful day, and they kept testing the
range of the portable radio set. Frank Lidke, from the home
base, kept saying, "Can you hear me?" The radio was working
perfectly, so Wilson would answer, "Four By Four." Then Lidke
would say "All right, come on down, then." Wilson would reply,
"We have lost contact, please repeat." After going through
this routine several times, Lidke finally caught on that the
set was working, but the pilot and Wilson were enjoying the
joy~ride.
When they finally landed, there were some bullet
holes in the fuselage of the plane. They had not been aware of
anyone firing at them, but they had been over enemy positions
and apparently picked up some small arms fire.
It was about this time that Morley was promoted to Major,
and Lt. Walter Merrit was promoted to Captain. Wilson was now
the Assistant Division Signal Officer, a staff officer instead
of a command position. The biggest advantage was that it gave
him more time for learning the "big operation" instead of
working on his own Company's problems.
As the fighting subsided, there was time for swimming,
surfing and fun. Morley had a ten-day leave with others from
the Division for rest and recreation. He flew in a converted
light attack bomber from Aitape to Sydney, Australia. On the
way over the Great Barrier Reef he was allowed to sit up with
the pilot. Suddenly, they spotted a submarine, and the pilot
�7z
literally put the plane into a steep dive. The sub disappeared
long before the plane pUlled out of its dive. The pilot did
not know if it was an enemy or friendly sub, which didn't make
much difference to the frightened passenger. He was too
frightened by the sudden dive to think much about the
nationality of the vessel.
They touched down at Carnes and again at Townsville. At
the air-strip at Townsville, Morley saw his first WAAC. She
was smoking a cigarette and talking with another GI. Her
expletives rivalled any GI Wilson had ever heard. He couldn't
help wondering if this was what American womanhood was coming
to. Fortunately, she was not the rule, but a lurid exception.
When they reached Sydney, the Red Cross found a house for
them to rent. It was easily accessible from downtown, and they
stocked up with fresh meat and goodies. Actually, fresh
vegetables were almost as much craved as steaks. Two other
officers shared the house, and they did a lot of sightseeing
and visited places of entertainment. They also toured the Blue
Mountains, about 40 miles from Sydney, and went to shows and
pubs.
Morley had his teeth cleaned -- the first time in about 3
years and, strange as it may seem, no cavities!
When they returned to Aitape, they were loaded down with
beer, liquor and anything that would not spoil or mold. It was
during this time that several traveling
usa
shows came to New
Guinea. Part of Morley's duties were building a stage, setting
up the sound system and, of course, seeing and talking with
�73
several of the entertainers. Among those who came were: Joe E.
Brown, Gary Cooper, John Wayne, Bob Hope, Frances Langford,
and always a bevy of good looking dolls.
Of those that Wilson met, Joe E. Brown was by far the most
natural and sincere. He had just lost a son in the fighting in
another theatre, and he did not make a play for the big brass.
The same can not be said for most of the others. Hope only
seemed to associate with the Generals, and Cooper and Wayne
were just as anxious to please the Generals.
The Japs did drop a few bombs one night during a movie and
injure some of our troops, but otherwise there was a respite
in the fighting.
One day, the General ordered Wilson to go down the coast
of New Guinea to the Milne Bay area to get some special
equipment. The General's boat was about 35 feet long and was
equipped with sails and a diesel engine. The skipper had a
beautiful black scottie dog, and every time he had been ashore
for a few days, he was prone to seasickness. It was pitiful to
see the poor dog lie, foaming at the mouth, head between his
paws and hating everyminute of it. Some of the others also got
seasick but, fortunately, Morley enjoyed the cruise down the
scenic coastline. They did put in at Hollandia and other ports
for brief stops.
When Morley returned to Aitape, he was given another week
of rest and recreation. He headed for Australia again, with
the same group that had accompanied him on the previous trip.
Along on this trip was a General's Aide, who carried a parrot,
�and Morley talked with him most of the way. He was a writer
who earned extra money by writing trash stories for Best
Western and True Romances. His adventure stories were sent to
name writers like Max Brand, and he was paid by the number of
words. His ambition was to write something worthwhile in his
own name.
They rented a house and had just returned from stocking up
on provisions when someone knocked at the door. It was the
pilot with orders for all of the vacationers to return to
Aitape at once. Unfortunately, they lost their rent deposit
and the provisions, and it was the shortest R & R anyone of
them had ever had.
When they returned to Aitape, they planned an invasion of
the southernmost Philippine island. Lt. General Kreuger was
". .....' now in command of the sixth Army, and the 32nd was placed
under his control. Much planning and practice went into this
phase, and suddenly, the whole operation was cancelled. Morley
was not sorry, as he would
have been in one of the first
groups to land. Japanese air power was not dead, but American
air power was beginning to have great effect.
One day, the 32nd Signal Company area was raided by some
Jap planes. They were strafed, and a few bombs were dropped.
The Engineer Company stationed nearby had machine guns, and
all of the men fired whatever weapons they had at the planes.
One of the planes was hit and went down in the woods only a,
couple of hundred yards from the Company. Lt. Jack Clark
salvaged a Jap camera from the plane's wreckage. Little did
�75
they know that, in 20 years, the Japs would be selling cameras
to Americans. Anyway, the Engineers claimed credit for the
downed plane, though for all anyone knew, it could have been a
shot from any rifle, tommy-gun, or even a lucky pistol shot.
The other planes were finally driven off by American fighter
planes.
One night, one of the Signal Company radio teams was up
with a regimental combat team located on a beach. Some Japs
with empty gallon pails strapped to their waists came out of
the water and threw a grenade into the radio jeep. It killed
one man and wrecked the vehicle. This was the first time
Wilson had to write a letter to the family, and it was a very
difficult thing to do.
One officer who Morley happened to know was about 6'9"
,,··'....'tall, wrote to a friend back in Wisconsin complaining about
McArthur. He was a First Lieutenent, and his letter read
something like this:
"Dug-Out Doug, the pink-robed bastard, his fox hole was
only 6 feet deep and 10 feet long, and he made them dig it to
10 feet deep and 20 feet long," etc. The letter was detected
by the censor, and the writer was arrested. He had an
excellent young defense counsel who convinced the court
martial Board that the Lieutenent was really talking about a
friend of his and not about McArthur. He was found "not
guilty", and the entire Court Martial Board was summarily
dismissed by General Gill. A new Board was appointed, and that
is how Wilson came to serve on a Court Martial Board.
�During this rather quiet stretch, Wilson sat on several
court martials. Often, the President of the Board was Colonel
Merle Howe, from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Merle was very tough,
and Morley often found himself unwilling to agree with the
severity of the sentence. Merle was an infantryman who had
seen many men die, and he had no sympathy for anyone who was
accused of cowardice. Fortunately, most of the severe
sentences were shortened at the end of the war. None was
actually executed.
It was also during this period that Sergeant George Fries
from Kalamazoo, Michigan, was granted a lO-day furlough to go
to Sydney, Australia. George was a young, handsome swain, and
he was walking down the street when he saw the most beautiful
girl he had ever met. He approached her and told her he was an
,.. .. ,....' agent for a movie studio. After a few drinks he took her to a
Sydney studio where they just happened to be casting for a
movie about Australia's part in the war. She auditioned and
actually got the leading part, and she gave George all the
credit. The story made Australia's equivalent of Life
magazine. As a result of the story, George received a great
number of letters from girls allover Australia. He generously
shared the letters with other men in the Signal Company. As a
by-product, many men who went to Sydney had wonderful
furloughs. The story has a fairy tale ring to it, but in this
case it was true.
At this time, Col. Lidke went back to the States and,
within a few weeks, Lt. Col. Garlick came to the 32nd,
�assigned as Division signal Officer. Burl Chase took a 30-day
rotation back to Michigan and, much to Morley's dismay, word
was received that Burl and his wife were killed in an
automobile accident. Mary had met Burl's wife, Valerie, at a
cottage party that the wives of signal Company men had
arranged. She had especially liked Valerie, and Morley had
hoped they would remain friends after the war. It was a severe
shock, and he would remember Burl fondly for the rest of his
life.
Occasionally Morley would write a poem or two and send
them to Mary. A few of them will be added by the end of this
story.
Col. Dayton Garlick proved to be a good officer. He loved
to swim, and one day a wave caught him with such force that it
turned him over and broke his shoulder. His arm was
immobilized and in a cast for several hot, uncomfortable
weeks. He and Morley became good friends and they played a lot
of cribbage.
Dayton had worked for Bell Telephone in the utica area of
New York state. One night he told Morley that, as a trusted
manager in the Bell system, it had been his responsibility to
install and service the communications equipment for the
mountain vacation home of J. Edgar Hoover. He further said
that Hoover had a "boyfriend" who always accompanied him, and
that it was more than just an ordinary friendship. Because of
J. Edgar's peerless reputation, Morley didn't know whether to
believe the story, but Garlick was not one to exaggerate, and
�he was later to learn that, indeed, J. Edgar lived a
clandestine life. It is ironic that he was so severe on
others. Who can forget his treatment of Martin Luther King,
for reportedly similar reasons?
The Division was getting ready to move again. This time,
everyone knew it was for the big one, the return to the
Philippines. After a short stop at Hollandia, a convoy of
ships moved north into Leyte Gulf and came ashore to relieve
the 24th Division. For several days they were stationed near
Tachloban and gradually fought their way north and west
towards Ormac. It was particularly difficult fighting. The
Japs were dug in to roadside caves and had to be eliminated
with grenades and flame throwers.
When the Signal troops first came to Taclobin, most of
# .. , ....'
their equipment was still in the ship's hold, including
latrine canvas. This was not serious in New Guinea, but now
they were in a more civilized country, and reasonable and
modest steps had to be taken. One day, Morley sat on the
latrine, and a young Philippino lady walked up to him. He
tried to get rid of her, but she needed some laundry to wash.
He said, "See me later,' but she persisted. Several of the GIs
noted Morley's embarrassment and, no doubt, enjoyed it.
Finally, he completed his personal chore and gave her some
laundry to do. She was totally unaffected and displayed no
concern at his discomfiture.
One memorable day, Morley decided to visit some of the
units about 3 miles closer to the front. As he was about to
�leave, Col. Garlick asked it he could use Morley's rubber
mattress for his noon nap and, of course, Morley was glad to
make it available. Morley loaded his pockets with chocolate,
carried his Tommy-gun, and started out. He had not gone more
than 2 miles when he happened upon the eeriest sight he would
ever encounter. The previous day, one of the infantry units
had blasted a dozen or so Japs out of some roadside caves. As
they came running out of the caves, they were literally
roasted by the flame throwers. Many of them were still in
running or upright positions, but blackened beyond
identification by the scorching flames. It was a haunting
sight that Wilson was not able to erase from his mind. The
stench was so bad that he did not linger long.
A little further along, he came upon a couple more dead
Japs. A GI was sitting on the bloated stomach and going
through the pockets of one man. He asked Wilson if he had any
chocolate, and Morley gave him a large bar. He was generous
because he knew he would not be able to eat anything himself.
While still sitting on the dead body, the GI ate the
chocolate, still continuing the plunderous search for booty.
Maybe one can become inured to almost anything, but this was
more than Morley had bargained for. He left this scene, trying
not to gag, and feeling that war was a pretty horrible
influence on the human person.
Wilson arrived at an area where some Japanese tanks had
been destroyed the previous day. The GI who had destroyed 5
tanks was Dirk Vlug from Grand Rapids. For his heroic action
�he was decorated with the congressional Medal of Honor.
Although Morley did not know Dirk, some years later he would
work with him at the Veterans Administration.
Morley had seen enough for one day (or for a lifetime),
and he hurried back towards Division Headquarters so as to
reach it before dark. One the way back, he was aware of
several artillery shells going over his head. They were not
close to him, so he hurried on. When he reached the
headquarters site, he found that the artillery shells had
arrived ahead of him. Several men were wounded, and a
switchboard operator had been instantly killed. A tiny piece
of shrapnel had entered his body by way of the armpit, and had
cut a vital artery of the heart. He had been operating the
switchboard, and there was no outward sign that he had been
"""~'
injured.
Col. Garlick had been taking a nap on Morley's rubber
mattress and had been hit twice. One piece cut his shoelace
and ankle, and the other went through his earlobe. The rubber
mattress was completely shredded. He had warned Morley that
morning "not to try to win any purple hearts." Morley did not
begrudge Garlick this medal, and he often thought how
fortunate he was to have been up "at the front lines" on that
particular day.
Mopping up continued, and the Signal Company moved across
the Limon Valley to high ground not too far from Ormoc. A
communique from McArthur's headquarters informed the units
that a shipment of fresh turkeys would be received by
�f{1
Thanksgiving. The holiday came and went and no turkeys.
Finally, about ten days later, the turkeys arrived, and the
troops gorged themselves on the first fresh meat they had seen
in many months. sometime after midnight on that very black
night, Morley had stomach cramps and knew that he had to find
the latrine. He knew that the troops would be trigger-happy
because the Japs had frequently infiltrated their positions.
He nervously started in the direction of the latrine, calling
out, "Hold your fire, this is Major Wilson." SUddenly he
bumped into someone, and the person said, "You have to go back
to the end of the line. The whole company is down here." The
turkey had been enroute too long, and half of the Division was
sick that night.
At about this time, Morley lost another friend. Captain
,.. ........ Herman B?O.echer, the German soldier of fortune who had fought
in the Spanish civil War, the hero of Buna and the person who
had lived far behind Japanese lines for months, was hit by a
mortar shell and bled to death before help arrived. If any man
ever deserved the congressional Medal, it was this man who
chose to fight for freedom even when his homeland was being
destroyed by Allied Forces. He hated tyranny, and he did
something about it. It is almost certain that Herman would
have been awarded the Congressional Medal, if he had not been
a German immigrant. Such is the way of politics. His men
worshipped him and followed him through many hellish
situations.
�r'-~
2:> L
Finally the mopping up ended, and the Division was once
again loaded in ships and sent off, this time to Lingayen Gulf
on Luzon. There must have been around 100 ships, including
cruisers, destroyers, and perhaps battleships guarding the
convoy. Morley rode on a communications ship, easily
identifiable by its many antennas. Unfortunately, the Japs
must have known, as several Jap planes attacked the convoy
coming in. Some Navy Hellcats were in hot pursuit and were
firing away at the Jap planes. A radio message came to the
communications room saying, "Two Rats downed by one cat." As
they got into the harbor, a dive bomber dove straight down, so
close that you could see the pilot's facial features. When he
hit the water his plane exploded, and it was like a slowmotion picture. Water rose many feet into the air and even
tf""L~>
splashed on the deck of the communications ship.
A Jap torpedo bomber dropped its huge torpedo, and it
seemed to bounce right over the bow of the ship. You could see
its wake as it sped through the maze of ships, miraculously
missing all the ships in the harbor.
Next was the unloading. Troops climbed over the side and
down rope nets, hoping that the bobbing landing craft would
stay in one place long enough to catch the tumbling troops. It
didn't help that each person carried from 50 to 100 lbs of
equipment on his back.
Finally they reached the beach, a coconut plantation, and
unloaded the landing craft as quickly as possible. Morley's
troubles were not over. just before sunset, Jap Zeros made
�several runs over the area, strafing each time they made a
pass. Jack Clark and Morley would crouch behind the large
coconut trees. All of a sudden, Jack jumped out and hollered.
Morley thought he must have been hit, but he had crouched in a
hill of ants. When the Japs made another run, Jack decided the
ants were the lesser of two evils.
To make matters worse, the American Navy launched an anticraft attack upon the Jap planes, and Morley and Jack were
more frightened by the ack-ack fire than by the enemy. There
was hardly a frond left on the palms, and shrapnel damaged
some of their equipment.
The troops slept on the beach that night. The Japs had a
very large cannon mounted on a rail car several miles up in
the mountains above the beach. You could see it fire at the
""''''''beach area, but their aim was not very accurate. Eventually,
the cannon was silenced, presumably by ship fire, and the
troops loaded the trucks and started off for a village in
Pangasinon Province, some 70 miles inland.
When Wilson arrived in Tayug, four little girls, ragged,
dirty and absolutely precious, came out to greet him. They
sang "God Bless America", and it was hard to hold back the
tears. Thus started an association with the Mamenta family
that was to last the rest of his life.
Mrs. Mamenta owned and directed a school from kindergarten
through a four-year college. She was. a remarkable person. At
least one of the girls had been born out in the fields during
the Japanese occupation. They were not allowed to teach
�"English" and thus books had been confiscated and burned. Mrs.
Mamenta had buried some of her books in boxes and managed to
deceive the Japanese and survive. Mr. Mamenta had been a "sort
of " District Attorney for the area. A good story could be
written on the life of Mrs. Mamenta.
The Mamentas gave the use of their partially bombed out
school buildings for Division Signal installations. A
switchboard and radio facilities were established. Message
Center was located nearby.
The Division was fighting its way up the Villa Verde Trail
towards Bagio. It was very hard going, but everyone began to
feel that the end was in sight. The war in Europe had released
men and material, and nothing could stop us now. The only
trouble was that the invasion of Japan, itself, posed a very
heavy shadow on the horizon.
A call came for Wilson to go to General Gill's quarters,
and he reported there promptly on March 19, 1945. General Gill
was not prone to pay compliments to anyone, but he did tell
Wilson that Army did not ask for him or he would have said,
"No Way." He said they ordered the transfer, and he had "no
alternative." That was as much of a compliment as
J j.. ~J\ Iv1lH LEi' W<,U~";Jt1(L{) Ct>
Titt?
ever gave. ~l.h., 1::.. f L
'- G' \
IVH) sr HAVf 'llit"V 6li"'i
,.J\r1 tr"t> 4=l-) ~ (1 £:;{J..lt: (,A L
.,., L. l _ . .
I'
Wilson left the next morning, March 20, after
General Gill
fllL{) ;If 'l-~ 'So Til
Wi:L L
cf-
bidding the
32nd Signal Company adieu. A formation of the troops was held,
and it was a very emotional time. He had eaten, slept and
served with these men since October 15, 1940.
[L..
M··';),\.
�Morley drove into the bivouac area of the 293rd Joint
Assault Signal Company on the beach, not too far from where he
had landed a few weeks earlier. The scene was sickening.
Vehicles with flat ties, radio equipment that was inoperative
from exposure to salt water, and an attitude of indifference
by both enlisted men and officers was everywhere to be seen.
There were over 550 enlisted men and some 53 officers from
four different branches of the Armed Services: Signal Corps,
Artillery, Navy and Air Force. The former Commanding Officer
had become a chronic alcoholic and was sent back to the
States. Two officers and three enlisted men were AWOL.
Interviews with key personnel indicated that most of the
personnel felt that they should not have been sent to the SW
Pacific. They had participated in the Omaha Beach landing with
,.. ......... some casualties and in the early assault on the towns near the
beach. Although they had many stories about the good times in
France, and later in Paris, they felt they had "done their
part". It was difficult for Morley to work up a wave of
sympathy. He listened and then started the process of
organizing the Company. Many of the officers were from the
professional services. For instance, there were 13 attorneys,
one professional football player, and one basketball player,
several mechanical and electrical engineers, one Hollywood
script writer, one radio announcer, and an unknown number of
college professors.
Morley did the obvious thing; he placed the Navy personnel
under the Senior Naval Officer, the artillery men under the
�Senior Artillery Officer, etc.
(Prior to that, the men had
been assigned to officers of different branches.) Then he
started a maintenance program, getting rid of equipment that
was not repairable and requisitioning replacement items. He
put out a report on the AWOL personnel, and when they were
found (operating a Philippino whorehouse), he placed them
under arrest and asked Army Headquarters for instructions on
how to court martial Navy personnel. Since the Army Judge
Advocate did not know the answer, Wilson put his request in
writing and followed it up weekly with telephone calls.
He organized the company into teams for air, naval and
artillery fire control. This was a lucky move, because shortly
after they had conducted practice maneuvers, the 293rd JASCO
was called upon for support to some of the Infantry Divisions.
"'.c....' The Army Inspector General paid a visit to the company and was
very pleased with the changes made.
Lt. Oakes, a naval officer, was a great help during these
difficult days, and at about this time a Signal Corps captain
was assigned. Morley depended upon Oakes and Captain Fred
Huffsmith for advice, support and for help.
One day, a telephone call came in from an admiral saying
that, if Wilson didn't turn the Navy personnel loose from the
brig, he was going to have his ass in trouble. Wilson again
called Army and was told "not to worry."
. They organized a volleyball team, and the officers were
never beaten. The professional athletes were so good that they
were able to beat every team around. They would let Wilson
�;)l
play if they were far ahead, or for a minute or so when he was
in the back court. He was not tall enough to play the net, but
he was fairly good at "setting the ball up" for others to
score.
Wilson began to have health problems. He could not eat
anything without severe nausea. After a week or so, he went to
see a doctor, and he was not even allowed to go back to his
unit. He had infectious hepatitis and was sent to a field
hospital. There, he lived on sugar wafers for about 10 days,
and very slowly began to regain his strength.
In the bed next to wilson, the hospital had admitted a
black GI who was enjoying himself. The RN came in and asked,
"What's your trouble?" Without a smile he answered,
"Gonderputis." He kept the ward in good humor. On a more
serious note, several children were in the next tent. They
were among the survivors of the liberated Japanese st. Thomas
prison. They were so starved that one could almost cry just to
see their emaciated bodies. Most of them spoke English with a
British accent. Some of them were children of the diplomatic
corps. It was wonderful to see the fast improvement that just
a week or so brought about.
Capt. Huffsmith visited Morley and brought the exciting
news that the unit had been allotted one person to be rotated
to the
u.s.
Since Morley had more than twice as much time
overseas than the next eligible person, he instructed Fred to
submit his name as a candidate for rotation. Suddenly, he felt
cured or at least happy. Forty-two months is a long time to be
�away from the ones you love. He wrote the good news to Mary,
and then came the waiting period. He was discharged from the
hospital and went back to the Company.
He drove down to Manilla to see the ruins, and someone
called his name from across the street. it was Major Jim
Rahrer, one of his men, who he had sent to OCS about three
years previously. Jim had a full bottle of Four Roses that he
had brought from the states, and Wilson celebrated, even
though the physicians had warned him not to do it for "a few
months." Morley ended up driving Jim's jeep back to his unit.
Jim was in no condition to drive. Morley pointed the jeep in
the direction of Manilla, and went to his quarters. When he
awakened at about 800 hours, the jeep was still in the same
position. Jim had "slept it off."
#'''.'io<'
The Army Signal Officer told Wilson that his rotation
might be short-lived. He said they would need him for the
planned invasion of Japan, and to "enjoy yourself while you
can." Finally came the day, Wilson was taken to Manilla by
Fred Huffsmith and found that his transportation was to be an
ancient banana boat. He slept on deck the entire trip back.
On August 7, a radio message gave the news of the first
atomic bomb drop. And then the second bomb! Everyone hoped
this would shorten the war and save many lives. Wilson thought
about the warning from the Army Signal Officer and, for the
first time, felt he might not have to face another long tour
of fighting.
�The boat pulled under the Golden Gate Bridge on about
~ -, ","
(jr :,!"
August/Bad, 1945. Morley always did love that location, even
before Tony Bennett. After a meal of fresh meat and green
vegetables, he was placed in charge of a train heading for
Chicago. Of course he called Mary, and she agreed to meet him
at the Congress Hotel. She had arrived before Morley. It was
quite a reunion!
sometimes it takes more character to stay home during a
war than it does to be a part of it. The one who is at home
has all the worry and never knows if the other one is safe or
even alive. Mary had saved the money which Morley had sent,
and they were two very happy people. They began the life that
had been interrupted by his call to duty on October 15, 1940..
For all practical purposes, the war had ended. Morley was
in Cadillac, Michigan, on August 14, 1945, and Mary joined him
there. She had stayed behind because her father had surgery in
Grand Haven. It was a joyous day, and Truman's decision to
drop the bomb was applauded by Wilson. He felt that may have
saved his life and the lives of thousands of others.
�90
PART "' THE POST-WAR YEARS
It was so good to be home! Morley and Mary stayed for a few days at the farm in
Moorestown. He went to church on Sunday and was asked to talk about the war. He
did not tell them what they wanted to hear. Mostly they wanted to be told that "God
was on our side", and that there were "no atheists in fox-holes". He tried to say that
war is not glorious and that he doubted the value of a religious conversion which
happened under such violent stress. I He also tried to side-step polite but curious
inquiries about his own beliefs. Mostly, he did not want to embarass his parents.
A curious thing about his home-coming happened when Morley drove up to the
farm gate. The old dog "King" came out to greet him and literally did acrobatics with
joy. Remember, he had not seen the dog for over four years, yet the dog yipped,
rolled, tossed and showed his pleasure plainer than any words. It was unbelievable.
Morley was aware of the aging of his Mother and Dad. They were approaching
their mid-sixties and the years of strain, hard work, and worry had bequn to take its toll.
Fred would quietly take Morley to one side and inform him that Minnie was "slipping".
Minnie would confide in Morley that Fred was "getting childish". Actually there was
some truth in both statements but not as pronounced as either of them maintained.
"'....,....
One evening, Morley went "down-town" to Moorestown. The popular gathering
place was Whipples' grocery store and post-office. As he stood out on the cement
porch, someone quietly came up behind him and covered Morley's eyes with both
hands. Then this prankster said, "I bet you don't know who him are, do you Morrie?"
Who in
hell~ Morrie?"
Morley said, "GEORGE GOODALL". At this point George
said, "How in hell you know who him are, Morrie?" If anyone had ever heard George
talk, they could never mistake him for anyone else.
Morley's stay at home was short; he was still in the army and was ordered to
San Antonio for dUty with the Air Corps. The Air Corps was still a part of the Army but
in the process of becoming a separate branch of the service. He was asked if he
wanted to be discharged and was directed to be processed for separation.
He
expected to be a civilian the next day but was told that his "paper" had been lost. He
waited and finally he and Mary rented a room in a motel near Breckenridge Park in
San Antonio.
Each day he would drive about 20 miles out to the Air Base called
"SAAC" (San Antonio Air Cadets) and was told that his papers had not been found.
�91
This continued for almost three months. He played golf, visited the countryside and
grew more impatient. Finally, it was learned that he had been sent to this base for duty
instead of for discharge. His papers were not lost but were next door in the base
headquarters. They had been carrying him AWOL for all this time when he was within
100 feet.
It seemed a logical question. How did we ever manage to win the war?
Anyway, he was finally discharged but did not get the separation promotion to
Lieutenant Colonel which would have been almost automatic if he had been
discharged from an Army ground unit. At that time it did not seem important.
Morley was on terminal leave from November to March, 1946. Mary wanted to
go to Mexico City so in late November they contacted Jean Mitchell (later to be Jean
Kooiman) and she came to San Antonio by train.
She and the Wilsons spent a
delightful 3 weeks in Mexico. They stopped overnight in Monterey and in a small town,
then called Nantes. They stayed in a small motel and ate green salad, drank goats
milk and did everything that one should have known was a "no-no".
That evening, after dinner, the natives came into the spacious hotel lobby
carrying guitars, violins, and other instruments. They sat upon the steps of the large
open stairway and serenaded the guests with some of the most memorable Mexican
t<-.....~,
music that Morley would ever hear. Among the tunes was "Fascination" which Jater
became quite a best seller in the United States.
In Mexico City, the Wilsons stayed at a small hotel where the owner took a
personal interest. He arranged for tickets to special events, bull fights and provided a
driver for the 1941 Plymouth. Mary had purchased the car, new, for under $800.00
and they were quite proud of it. The driver said, after testing all the extras, "This car is
no good. In Mexico City you need a loud horn. The brakes are no matter!"
The hotel owner, came to our room and made Morley play the part of the bull
while he demonstrated the adeptness of the toreador. He used a large red
handkerchief and he was almost as exciting as the actual bull fight. He explained the
various maneuvers so that they were better prepared for the actual performance.
Unfortunately, a long love affair with horses took the edge off the fight for Morley. He
felt very sad when a horse was gored by the bull.
Mary got quite ill with Montazuma's revenge so Morley and Jean did quite a lot
of sight-seeing on their own. They did the usual things like climbing the pyramids,
�92
Xochimilco Floating Gardens, and interviewed the leading Artist of Mexico at
Guernavoca. He quickly corrected Morley's statement that Diego Rivera must be the
greatest Mexican Artist of all time. He was not humble. They also went to Toxco and
then returned to San Antonio.
The Wilsons motored back to Grand Haven and Morley began to investigate the
job market. He went to Ypsilanti and his old boss Alex Seedorff told him that he was in
the process of selling the factory to some New York investors. Morley was to be the
controller.
Morley talked with other employees and decided to decline the offer.
Another acquaintance, Larry Johnson, had arranged for an interview with the
Personnel Director of Philco Corporation. He was offered a job as credit manager of
the Detroit Branch but also turned down this opportunity. Next, he was told about
some jobs at the Veterans Administration in Detroit.
He finally accepted a very
mediocre job there with the promise that he would be "moved up" in a short time.
Mary and Morley stayed with Mary's brother and sister-in-law in Dearborn and
he drove to work. One cold wintry day Morley and Mary were driving down Fort Street
in Detroit when he got behind a large truck. The truck was in the middle of the street
and after following him for several blocks, Morley swung out over the center line and
passed him. A police siren sounded and one of the two patrolmen came up to the car
with an intimidating swagger and demanded to see Morley's driver's license. Morley
puned out his very moldy New Guinea wallet and showed the policeman his Army
license. He had applied for a Michigan license but it has not yet come. The policeman
said, "Where did you pick up all that mold?" Morley said, "I just got back from New
Guinea." At this point, the policeman called his partner-in-crime-prevention, and said,
"Hey Stan, wasn't your brother in New Guinea?" "Yes" said Stan. Trying to seize on
anything, Morley said, "What was his name?" "Joe Kryzinski", Stan replied. Morley
said, "Oh yea, wasn't he with the The Air Force?" It was a lucky shot in the dark. The
policeman put his ticket pad back in his pocket and said, "Be careful now."
Wilsons were aware that property values were on the rise and soon (too soon)
bought a 2 family brick home in Melvindale. It was a very good house and they soon
furnished it. This took most of their savings, over $11,000, yet neither of them were
quite content with living in the Detroit Area.
Morley did meet George Wilson, coach of the Detroit Lions, and through him
obtained tickets for several football games. He would continue this association for
�93
several years after George came to Grand Rapids and Morley was later transferred
there, also.
The Veterans Administration was located on the top 5 floors of the all-brick
Guardian Building in downtown Detroit. The Wilsons wanted to get out of that area but
the problem was to find a suitable job. One day, he was called into conference with
some of the VA Brass and told about the need for rehabilitation specialists for seriously
disabled veterans. The idea sounded good and after some "in-house training", Morley
was assigned to this area and transferred to Muskegon.
The Wilsons put their
Melvindale house up for sale and stayed a few weeks with Mary's parents.
Muskegon, he met Frank DeYoe, and formed a life-time friendship.
In
Frank was a
liberal, a Democrat and a wonderful person. His wife, Mildred, was a schoolteacher
and they had many enjoyable conversations.
Morley and Mary rented a house in Muskegon from a family that Mary had
known. so it was a happy situation. They considered buying a home in that region but
in the spring of 1947, he was transferred to the Grand Rapids area. With that promise,
the Wilsons sold their Melvindale house and bought a home at 121 Manchester Road,
Wyoming, a suburb of Grand Rapids. It was a small but comfortable 3 bedroom home.
Morley continued in the "Special Rehab" assignment and one of the first clients was
;i"'L~'
Dirk Hollebeck, a quadriplegic. They formed a social relationship with Dirk and Jean,
in addition to their relationship through the VA. Dirk was a most unusual person and
his wife was a sweet and kind person who looked after Dirk's needs.
Morley liked the personnel at the Grand Rapids VA office, especially Charlie
Doyle from Lowell. Charlie resembled Mickey Rooney and had a sense of humor that
surpassed anyone Morley had ever known. More about him later.
Mary was happy in Grand Rapids and since they did not have a baby they
decided to try to adopt one. They applied at the Kent County Probate Court and were
advised that they would have to join a church to qualify. So they started "shopping", as
it were.
After visiting several churches which were mostly of the "Born Again"
traditional type, Frank DeYoe, suggested they try Fountain Street Baptist Church.
About half-way through Duncan Littlefair's sermon, Morley leaned over and said to
Mary, "I think we have found a home." There started a life time affiliation and it was,
perhaps, the most influential thing they would ever do.
Morley had some clients at a local Stenotype school. The director of the school,
�94
(
Mrs. Leach, told him that her daughter was in the process of adopting a baby. The
baby had not been born yet but the family had agreed to let this daughter have the
baby as soon as it was born. He kept nagging the Probate Court Agent and advised
him that the Wilsons had joined a church. He said "Which one?". Morley replied "A
Baptist Church". This seemed to satisfy him.
One day in early November, Morley learned that Mrs. leach's daughter, who
had been planning to adopt a baby, was pregnant; this meant that the baby might be
available. Morley and Mary made a fast trip to the Northern Michigan hospital right
after the baby was born. She was a real doll, long curly hair and she really smiled and
cooed. A lot of paper work had to be cleared but the Wilsons were the proud parent of
Ann Dee. They brought her back when she was two weeks old, and she never cried all
the way to Grand Rapids. Talk about walking on air! She was a delightful loving child.
They felt so lucky and spent many hours playing with her. She was also the.object of
her grandfather Pellegrom's affections.
Morley frequently ate lunch with Charlie Doyle. One day, as Charlie was driving
down Jefferson Avenue, Charlie spotted a parking place near the restaurant.
He
pulled up near the vacant space when a young lady in a top-down convertible slipped
in and literally "stole" the spot away from him. It was a obvious ruse and to make
matters even worse, she smiled and gave him a little "ta-ta", waving her fingers in a
teasing gesture. Charlie found another parking spot, and walked back to a service
station, right beside her convertible. He said to the attendant that he had been having
trouble with his battery in that red convertible and asked him to pull it out and put it on
the charger. He said, "There is no hurry, I'll be back in a hour or so, after I eat lunch."
We never went back to find out if the young lady got her car started.
Morley and Charlie were bemoaning the fact that they were not benefiting from
the G.1. Bill so they enrolled in the Dale Carnegie Course through Davenport Cottege.
Morley won a couple of awards but Charlie was a natural. He won several awards
and could mimic every speaker in the class. One lesson required students to give an
impromptu speech. On the way up to the lectern, the speakers were given a slip of
paper containing the subject. Charlie's subject was "Good Sportsmanship".
Adopting a very serious pose, Charlie said, "Whenever I think about good
sportsmanship, I think of dear old Lowell High School. Emblazoned in gold letters,
above the door to the football locker room were these famous lines from a poem by
�95
Grantland Rice. "When the game of life is over and the maker calls your name; it isn't
whether you won or lost, but how you played the game." And then after a pause
Charlie added, "So the next fall, the school would hire another new football coach."
That brought the house down and easily won Charlie another award.
Many of the clients assigned to Morley's care were scattered. He frequently
traveled to cities like Petosky, Charlevoix, Traverse City, Ludington, and he would be
on the road for two or three days at a time This left Mary alone. About this time the
Kent Country Probate Court Officer learned that the Wilsons were members of
Fountain Street Baptist Church. Fountain Street was not admired by the other Baptist
churches and certainly not by the other fundamentalist religious organizations in
Grand Rapids. He paid a visit to the Wilsons and told them he felt they had deceived
him. He said that by placing Ann in their home, he had condemned her "stra.ight to
hell".
You can imagine their surprise when the same Probate Court Official called a
few months later to let them know that he had another baby to place with them. It was
a boy and the Wilsons eagerly accepted him and named him Jeffrey Lynn. He was
about 10 daysold. Now there was great joy at 121 Manchester Road.
Jeffrey had a period (about 5 months) of "colic", a term his Grandmother Wilson
used to describe his stomach cramps and inability to digest his food. The ooctor, Dirk
Mouw, did not seem to be able to recommend a suitable formula. GrandmaWilson
visited us and it seemed she was better at calming Jeff than Mary or·Morley.
Mary had a group of Grand Haven friends that took care of the Wilson's soclal
activities and Fountain Street Church also supplied new friends. Morley's earliest
memory of Fountain Street Church was being greeted by Jack Darrow. In his
personable salesman-like manner, he put out his hand and said, "Hi, I'm Jack Darrow."
A long and pleasant friendship followed.
One morning Morley got up early and started the monthly trip to Northern
Michigan. He got just North of CedarSprings when 3 deer crossed the ~Iighway (Old
US-131) in front of him. He braked sharply and narrowly missed the deer. Two of
them jumped the fence but the third one ran into the fence, and fell back, dead from a
broken neck. It was only about 7 A.M. and Morley decided to load the deer in his trunk
and driveback home. In his mind, he would skin the deer, and have a healthy supply
of fresh venison. Just as he was dragging the deer to his car, another vehicle pulled
�96
(
up and three men got out. The conversation went something like this:
"Where are you going with that deer?" "I'm going to drop it off at the Rockford
State Police Post." "We are going right past the Post so we will drop it off."
Morley sized up the odds. He knew he didn't have a chance, so he pretended to
write their license number down to bluff them into letting him keep the deer. It did not
work and he headed North towards Cadillac. He was sure that they enjoyed their
venison and, of course, he never informed the police.
On another trip North, Morley stayed in Cadillac. He was driving a very old
Studebaker which he had just got from a garage after it was tuned up. That night, in
Cadillac, the temperature dripped to 42 degrees below zero. The car started at once,
and he pushed one Cadillac, one Uncaln, and several other cars which wouldn't start.
It made him feel very rich to think his old junkyard jalopy was a more reliable car than
the later and more expensive models he had helped.
As Ann and Jeff grew, Mary made attractive clothes for them. Ann was the shy
one and Jeff was the one who introduced himself and was very active. Morley liked to
take them shopping because they always were the centers of attention: Ann with her
smile and long curls and Jeff with his "Jack Darrow kind" of socialability. Grandpa
Pellegrom really doted on his grandchildren and it was always a pleasure to see his
face light up when we visited them in Grand Haven.
The work at the Veterans Administration began to slacken and there was a lot of
time for horse-play. One of the workers, Art SCUlly, told of his experience with the
Alcohol and Tax Division. He said that during prohibition, he was working out of the
Grand Rapids office and he had confiscated a car loaded with liquor (contraband). It
turned out that the car was destined to Grand Rapids as a part of the "rum-running"
operation related to or at least known by Frank McKay. This man was also a power in
the State RepUblican circles.
Scully reported that he received a telephone call at
home from Frank McKay. The caller informed Scully that another car was to come to
Grand Rapids and he didn't want it stopped. SCUlly replied, "I don't take my orders
from you. I don't see your name of my paycheck." McKay said, "Maybe you don't see
it, but it's there." According to Scully, the next day he was transferred to Cleveland and
didn't get back to Grand Rapids until the mid-1940's. Morley had no reason to doubt
the details of this story and it serves to illustrate how corruption can filter into every
facet of our government. This story is cited for those who are apt to think that it
�97
happens only at the National level.
There were two medal-of-honor winners in the Grand Rapids office of the
Veterans Administration. One was a hard working, conscientious fellow name John
Sjogren. Charlie and Morley made up a dummy file on a phony veteran WAAC whom
they dubbed "Wanda Leigh". They contacted Charlie's cousin who was active in Civic
Players and groomed her for the part of Wanda Leigh. They then put the phony 1:i1e on
Sjogren's desk with a note to call Wanda Leigh at a given number. John fell for the
ruse and called her at once. The cousin played the role perfectly telling John that she
was diagnosed as "having a service-connected tumor at the time of her discharge".
Less than nine months, later, she said the tumor turned out to be an eight pound baby
boy. So what was she supposed to do now? Charlie and Morley were watching from
the next office and listening in on the extension telephone.
Wanda Leigh· was the
subject of much joking after that episode. When John learned of the trickery, he took it
good naturedly.
One day Charlie came into the office after witnessing our own Doctor Kenneth
Gamm being a victim of a minor traffic accident. A city owned bus had rear-ended his
automobile. Charlie got on the extension phone and called Dr. Gamm, identifying
himself as the "City Attorney".
He informed Dr. Gamm that there had been some
damage to the city bus and that the Doctor would have to make restitution to the city for
about $200 worth of repairs. Dr. Gamm's face and neck grew red and he cursed the
"City Attorney" out. Half of the office were watching and suddenly Dr. Gamm looked up
and realized that he was not only the victim of an accident, he was the butt of one of
Charlie's jokes.
The assistant to the manager of the Veterans Administration office was one of
the finest persons Morley would ever know. Jack Van Vessem was the man that kept
things on an even keel. Jack was kind to the extent that he would go far beyond his
duties to help anyone and he would become a life-long friend to Morley. More about
him later. This is mentioned now because he was living proof that one didn't have to
"believe in God" to be kind and be a "Christian" in the finest sense of the word.
Another Congressional Medal of Honor winner was Dirk Vlug. Dirk sat around
talking with Art SCUlly and Charlie one afternoon. A very pretty, shapely employee
name Edwina walked by and Charlie said, "Gee, Dirk, how would you like a little of
that?" Dirk said, "I don't know. She's not very'friendly," Art SCUlly scoffed, "Not very
�98
f
\
friendly? I wouldn't care if she never spoke to me again the rest of her life."
As V.A. programs tapered off, it became evident that some employees would be
terminated or transferred.
People like Sjogren or Vlug would be assured of a
permanent job according to certain policies of government. Always looking for ways to
agitate, Charlie said to Dirk. "Do you think you might get laid off, Dirk?" Vlug replied,
"No, I think I'll have a job as long as I want it." Charlie said, "Yes, but the policy doesn't
say where. You might get transferred to San Francisco, San Jose or for that matter, to
San Salvador." Dirk looked worried as he went back to his office. After a brief interval
he returned and said very seriously, "Charlie, where is San Salvador?"
One of the employees whom Morley respected was Kenneth Downes. He was
a psychologist and he sometimes accompanied Morley on trips to evaluate a disabled
veteran. On one such trip, in the area south of Traverse City, they were looking for a
particular veteran's home and were unable to find it. They spotted an
along the road, smoking a corn-cob pipe.
olde~
woman
Kenneth asked, "Do you know where
veteran John Doe lives?" She looked suspiciously at Kenneth and said, "I might or I
might not. It all depends." It turned out she wanted to be sure that no harm would
come to her neighbor and Kenneth assured her that we were only interested in the
,;.~~-
',?
veteran's welfare. After spitting and chewing on her
pi~tem,
she directed them to
"John Doe's" home. It was one of the dirtiest abodes Morley had ever seen. After
interviewing the veteran, they were just getting ready to leave, when the wife
announced that lunch was ready. After watching the 'flies swarming around the kitchen
and smelling the odor from the baby that was long over-due for changing, Ken was not
about to subject his squeamish stomach to more torture. He suddenly remembered
another urgent appointment. They escaped without having to eat the black greasy
fried potatoes and the colorless turnip greens.
Morley had joined an Army Reserve unit and participated in weekly drills at a
local armory.
He also attended two weeks of active duty training at schools,
government departments or at summer encampments. One week-end he brought his
father and mother to Camp Grayling to see the troops march as a
Guard Field Day.
part of the National
A very young governor "Soapy" Williams noticed Fred Wilson
holding his grandchild. The governor patted the child and visited briefly with Fred.
Now Fred had always been a hardcore Republican but on the way home, he said, "I
never thought the governor would be such a nice down-ta-earth fellow." It's a safe
�99
l
guess that Soapy picked up more than one vote that day and it helps to explain his
reelection, time after time.
Charlie found a job with the Social Security Administration and Morley
transferred to the U.S. Labor Department. Ward Parks was the manager of that office
and almost immediately gave Morley the new responsibility of administering the wage
control program. This was to help control the upward spiral of wages and prices.
Other restrictions were placed on rental rates and prices during the Korean Conflict. It
was a most difficult program to administer but controls did have an effect on the strong
inflationary forces. One must admit that it was not a perfect solution.
One day Morley received a telephone call from the Kawneer Corporation in
Niles, Michigan. They proposed to have him come to Niles to explain the wage control
program to their staff. Ward Parks agreed to accompany Morley and Kawneer sent a
small 5 passenger plane to Grand Rapids to transport Ward and Morley. -It was a
windy day and Ward got "air-sick". The President of Kawneer met the plane at the
Niles airport in a huge limo with a built-in bar and luxurious velvet cushions. Ward
was impressed. He asked the President, "What kind of mileage do you get with a car
like this?" The President smiled and said, "Who gives a shit about the mileage?" After
much wining and dining, they went back to Grand Rapids. The wind was so strong that
tt""L~'
the plane landed quartering into the gale at a 3/4 angle. Ward's face was a soupy
green color and Morley felt he has a lesson in how big corporations operate.
Jeff and Ann were grOWing and the Wilsons were healthy. One night they gave
a party for their Grand Haven friends. During the party, the telephone rang and the
caller identified herself as "Western Union". She read a telegram which ordered
Morley to Camp Custer to take a pre-induction physical examination for the Army.
Morley suspected that it was a practical joke, a la Charlie Doyle. He immediately
called Western Union back and asked if there was a message for him. The operator
said, "I just read it to you." So much for horse-play.
Morley reported for the physical and the Doctor said after his examination that
there was no chance the he would be called. A week later he got another telegram to
go back to Fort Custer and repeat the physical. This time the Doctor said, "You won't
have to worry now, I will report to the pentagon in no uncertain terms that you are not fit
for active duty." He cited Morley's liver damage from hepatitis and his chronic skin
condition from the so called "New Guinea Crud". So again, he came back to Grand
�100
f
Rapids and three days later he was ordered to report to Fort Monmouth for active duty.
In the meantime, he received a telephone call from a Major George Kirjean in the
pentagon.
It turned out that Morley had sent, then Corporal, Kirjean to Officers
Candidate School back in 1942 and George honestly thought that he was doing
Morley a great favor. He went on to say that he would order him to Germany after a
refresher course at Fort Monmouth. He said, moreover, that the Wilsons would live in
luxury. Housekeepers were very cheap and Mary could "play bridge every day."
It was during this time that Morley got word that his oldest brother, Art. had died
from a fall. Mary went to the funeral but there was not enough time for Morley to go by
the time he got the word. Morley never knew exactly what happened but he suspected
what might have caused the accident. Art and Jo had been very kind to Morley and he
certainly grieved this loss. Art could have been a wonderful person if only he could
have shaken the alcohol. In those days they did not have AA or other organizations to
help. Jo certainly did all she COUld. and stood a lot of abuse in the process.
Morley went to school, studied hard and was near the top of his class. He came
home for Christmas. bought a one-wheel trailer and found that his friend Jack Van
Vessem had built a rack on the trailer so that he could haUl a larger load.
They found an apartment but the landlord wanted a one year lease. Morley
explained that his orders were only for 3 months. The landlord finally relented and
gave him a 1 year lease with a provision that is could be broken with one month's
notice. The apartment was not first-class but it was convenient and they permitted
children.
Ann went to nursery school and Jeff (now 2 years old) found plenty of
mischief. He could ride Ann's 2 wheel bike (with training wheels). Morley attended
school in the old Martin Bomber plant.
The course Morley attended was called "Signal Supply". The students were
mostly from the regUlar army ranks which included officers from Captains to Colonels.
Some were West Pointers whom Morley felt were clannish and even snobbish. There
were several field trips to places such as Bell Laboratories, and RCA factories. The
instructor was a brilliant young officer who was long on teaching and short on military
demeanor.
The Wilson family got to visit Washington, D.C., and the Maryland, Delaware,
Virginia country-side on weekends.
Morley paid a visit to General Bradley in the
Pentagon. He spent over two hours escorting Morley inside some of the "forbidden"
�101
areas of that architectural monstrosity. He had not changed from the keen, insightful
officer that he had been as G-3 of the 32nd Division and as the commander of the
126th Infantry Regiment in the New Guinea campaign.
He smiled when Morley
reminded him of the radio message that he had sent to General Gill which resulted in
his being sent back to the pentagon but he was still regretfUl about the needless waste
of life that prompted him to send the message.
The training in Baltimore ended and Morley was still on orders to the Korean
Zone. Even though his marks were near the top of his class, nothing happened to
change his orders. He asked for a 1a-day delay en route to accompany his family
back to Grand Rapids, which was readily granted. When he got back to Grand Rapids
there was a radio gram awaiting him changing his destination to Fort Hood, Texas.
Happy Day!
Morley drove alone to Fort Hood and found there the answers as to why his
assignment had been changed. He was assigned as the Post Signal Supply Officer
because his predecessor had been an alcoholic and the Signal Supply Depot was in
shambles. The Civilians (Civil Service) employees were generally fine people but it
seemed that they were deliberately "messing up" in order to get rid of the Supply
Officer. In a way, that is an ideal situation to inherit. Whatever steps you take to
improve the system makes you look mighty good.
The Commanding General was Lt. General Bruce Clark, a rather strict
disciplinarian but qUite fair. Morley was assigned quarters in a row of brick homes that
were built for Non-Commissioned Officers. The quarters were modern, comfortable
and adequate. There were two problemsI
1. No air-conditioning because it was 1953.
2. Cockroach infestation because bug bombs were not as effective then.
Mostly the spray only chased the roaches into the next adjoining apartment and
relief only lasted until the neighbors sprayed their quarters.
Anyway, Morley arranged for Mary, Ann, and Jeff to fly to Temple, Texas and for
the furniture to be shipped down at government expense.
Wilsons had a variety of neighbors including the Post Executive Officer, Col..
Thomas, General Clark, and Lt. Col.. Imsande, a quartermaster officer.
They
immediately became good friends with the Imsandes. Marie Imsande grew to love Jeff
and he spent many hours with her. She was always buying him presents, taking him
�102
{
t
to various events and feeding him candy and goodies. He loved her, partly because
she was to good to him and partly because he was able to escape the discipline of
home. Marie owned a dashound whose name was "Auga". Jeff promptly renamed
him "Doga".
Ann was still very shy but enrolled in kindergarten. She learned songs and we
laughed when she sang about the crocodile on the Nile River.
Meanwhile, Morley was very busy trying to straighten out a mess in the Signal
Supply Depot. The outfitting and supplying of two armored divisions with radios,
telephones, and other signal equipment had to have first priority. The warehouse,
which was several hundred feet long, was a complete jumble. In fact, pigeons and
sparrows were roosting on the bins and their droppings made the place look like a
huge chicken coop. The civilian crew under L.R. Taylor, worked very hard to get some
kind of order restored to the post Signal Supply Depot. The Inspector General paid a
visit to the depot just before Morley had arrived and found it unsatisfactory in almost
every respect. It was another case where the previous officer-in-charge had a severe
drinking problem and Wilson was lucky to inherit a situation that could only get better.
L.R. and his crew worked hundreds of hours of over time and in a month the
improvement was very significant. Just in time, too, because Lt. General Clark paid a
rare visit to the depot. He was very complimentary and asked how the crew had gotten
rid of the birds. Unfortunately, he put his hand up on one of the shelves and into the
only bird droppings that had been missed by the clean-up help. Talk about life's
embarrassing momentsl
Among the civilian help was a young lady who had been in the "Miss America"
contest. In fact, she was a very beautiful lady and when she worked overtime, it was
no problem to get other volunteers to stay overtime. She only stayed a few weeks after
Morley arrived but in the meantime, the area had a serious flood which caused all
kinds of problems. Streams over-flowed with flash flooding, some lives were lost from
one of the Armored Divisions when a small truck was washed off a bridge and, of
course, much equipment was damaged.
L.R. Taylor was working late at the depot on this very rainy night along with the
beautiful Miss Texas. Her car would not start so he dutifully gave her a ride. About a
block from her residence, they found her street completely flooded. He removed his
�103
new shoes (a present from his wife). Miss Texas carried his shoes in her hands and
he proceeded to carry her. About half way to her home, he stepped into a newly
excavated sewer. Both went completely under water and he never did recover his
shoes. They went to her home, he took a shower and dried out his clothing and since
the water recedes very rapidly, he managed to return to his car and go on home. For
weeks afterwards, Mrs. Taylor keep asking L.A. what ever happened to your new
shoes. He would say, "I'll be danged if I know." So when Morley would want to make
L.R. squirm, he would ask in the presence of Mrs. Taylor, "L A. , did you ever find your
shoes?"
Mary was not very happy with Army life. At parties, all of the Officers wives
would gather around General Clark's wife and tell her how beautiful she looked. In
fact, she was not a pretty woman, however, she may have been very friendly. Mary
could never force herself to join in this so called "brown nosing" and the Wilsons were
left out of most of the social affairs. There were bridge parties, and dances at the
Officers Club but Mary did not choose to enter into most of these functions. She is a
very private person and only socializes after she knows people for a long time.
Mary did some substitute teaching and so she hired a cleaning lady who did the
ironing. Some of the neighbors cautioned the Wilsons about not paying "too much" for
such help. This lady happened to be black and, at first, she wanted to eat alone in the
kitchen. Morley insisted that she eat with the family. He finally said, "If you are good
enough to work for us you are good enough to eat with us." While the Wilsons were
not flush with money, they also paid more than the "going rate" pretty much decided by
some of the higher ranking officers and their wives.
One day, Jeff bit Col. Thomas' daughter so hard it left his teeth marks in her arm.
It seemed he liked her tricycle and she did not want to give it to him. A lot of tricks were
used to break him of this troublesome habit. Reasoning, rewards, threats, physical
punishment, and even biting his arm but all to no avail. More later.
One night it snowed about two inches and the results were unbelievable. Car
after car skidded into the ditch, and there were bent fenders all over Fort Hood. The
Texans talked about it for weeks afterwards. They called it the day of the "big snow".
Lt. Col. David Becker was the Post Signal Officer and as such, an important
officer on General Clark's staff. He was Morley's boss but seldom exercised any
supervision over the operation of Signal Supply. One day the General had his aide
�104
{
phone Lt. Col. Becker to have him put a special radio in the General's Command car.
Lt. Col. Becker replied that he was not sure he could issue the radio since it was not
allowed in the Tables of Organization. The next day Lt. Col. Becker received his
orders for Korea and Morley suddenly found himself promoted to the position of Post
Signal Officer, in addition to his supply functions.
It was amazing what a difference this made. No longer did he have to grovel to
other staff officers. It even changed Mary's social status and a few women went so far
as to tell her how pretty she looked in her old party dress. Such was life in the Army.
One weekend the Wilsons motored to Galveston, Texas. They went swimming
in the gUlf and Mary was far out on a rubber-raft.
Morley was pushing her, and
suddenly he saw a large fin approaching at a high speed. He naturally assumed it was
a shark. Talk about fear! They finally realized that it was only a friendly dolphin.
It was about this time that President Eisenhower cut back on the
this forced the release of many civilian personnel.
finan~ing
and
Among those terminated were
several long-distance Civil Service switchboard operators.
There was a Signal
Battalion on the post and Morley contacted the Commanding Officer to see if he could
"borrow" about ten of the enlisted personnel to help operate the post switchboard. A
crash training course was set up and ten enlisted men, all black, were detached to the
Post Headquarters for this purpose. All of the civil service employees were white. The
only problem was that the women were used to striping down to the minimum amount
of clothing to be more comfortable in the intense heat. It was over 100 degrees for 30
consecutive days. Morley was proud that there was not a single incident involving the
black detachment and they did a very satisfactory job on the operation of the
switchboards. Morley wondered if this were the first integrated switchboard operation
in the South????
Shortly after this change, it was decided to install an automatic dial system,
eliminating a fairly good percentage of the operators. This took several months to
complete and the contract was not quite completed when Morley left the post for his
home in Michigan.
Before this a very important thing occurred. Much to everyone's surprise, Mary
became pregnant. If there were any doubts about staying in the Army this removed
them. Mary wanted to get to their home in Grand Rapids. Morley was elated and he
hurried to finish up some Army college courses he had been halfheartedly studying.
�105
'1
He finally completed the associate degree course.
Col. Thomas, acting as an emissary for General Clark, approached Morley on
staying in the military.
He said General Clark would be going to Europe as
Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe (the equivalent of NATO) and he was sure
Morley would be chosen to be on his staff if he agreed to change his category from IV
(17 months) to III (36 months). Morley was flattered and agreed to consider this
change. In fact, he had no intentions of staying in the service, but knew that if he
declined it would effect his relationship with the brass. It was not a difficult decision,
but the pressures made it a touchy situation. Hints of an immediate promotion, free
health service for the family, and other carrots were dangled, and all the time Mary and
Morley knew that they just wanted to get back to Michigan. Meanwhile, he pretended
to be seriously considering the opportunity.
Eventually, he announced his real intentions and the Wilsons started packing.
They shipped their household goods by van and after a gala farewell party, they
started back to Grand Rapids.
They arrived in Grand Rapids just before their
household goods. Unfortunately, the cockroaches arrived with the furniture and it
would be months before they were finally eliminated.
#., .....~_.
�106
(
PART IV - THE MIDDLE YEARS
Clarence and Edith Phillips had rented the Wilson home while they were in
Texas. They had treated it very well and gradually they became good friends. Edith
was a sister of Grace who lived in Chicago. Grace was a room-mate of Mary when she
taught school in Battle Creek, right after her college days. She was a very close friend
and they sometimes went to Chicago where they had wonderful weekends with the
Grossens. Often Clarence and Edith were a part of this delightful group. They usually
attended a play on these occasions and they always ate at one of the better
restaurants.
Morley found a job with "Plywood Grand Rapids".
It was interesting and
educational but he could not control some of the rather objectionable practices, so he
eventually took a position with Empire Lumber Company. He was to learn that this
company did much of the same and he was somewhat disillusioned with the ethics of
wholesale lumber. "Get the order" and worry about the details later, seemed to be the
basic religion of management.
In the meantime, Jeff had continued to bite the neighbor kids until he spotted a
bow and arrow in the store. Morley explained that such toys were for children who
were old enough so that they never resorted to biting. He said, if he could have the
bow and arrow he would not bite anymore. Much to everyone's joy, that proved to be
the cure. He never bit anyone again!
Morley became involved with the Godwin School District, and helped promote a
new physical education building which included a large swimming pool. This lead to
his election as treasurer of the school board. Roscoe Miner was the superintendent
and was one of the best administrators Morley would ever know These were the busy
years juggling school board meetings, out-of-town trips and church board meetings.
Jeff was not easy to control and Mary was frequently unhappy with Morley's inability to
say "no" to lots of causes.
One early morning Mary awakened Morley and said she thought the baby was
coming. They made a dash for the car and Morley "over-shot" Blodgett Hospital. He
finally located it and not any too soon. The nurse let Morley hold the wet bloody baby
and he was elated. Afterward, she said it was against the rules but she could not
�107
refuse the anxious father. Later that morning Morley went out to the Blodgett Parking
lot and started up the car. It went about 25 yards and died--out of gas! That was a
close call!
Morley located a local Army Reserve which provided programs that enabled
him to earn retirement credits. The main drawback was that it required two weeks of
active duty training each year. Sometimes he could do this at Camp Grayling, other
times he was assigned to the State Department in Washington and once he was on
duty at the Pentagon. Later he would go to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and graduate
from the Associate Command and Staff College. He even spent a couple of tours as
instructor after his associate degree was earned.
One evening Morley was dressing to attend a drill at the local Reserve Armory.
Dr. Lewis's son Todd was about 5 years old and very interested in the Army. He asked
Morley, "Were you in the war?" "Yes", Morley replied. The next question was, ,"Did you
kill any Germans?" The answer was "No." "Well, why not?" Todd asked. Morley
explained that he was in the Pacific Area and was fighting against the Japanese.
Then Todd wanted to know, "Did you kill any Japs?" Again Morley said "No." Todd
said in his 5 year old lisping speech, "Well, Why not?" Morley said, "I wasn't mad at
any Japs." That did not satisfy Todd. He asked, "Thay, you were on our thide, weren't
#,' ....J.~'
you?"
The Church offered a lot of pleasure for the Wilsons. They went to many dinner
dances. Dick Brooks adapted some of the Musicals, such as "South Pacific" to the
local situation and a group of aspiring thespians staged some wonderful productions.
Morley stayed active as an usher and Wilsons formed some lasting friendships,
including Jack Darrow, Ben Peterson, John Kay and others.
More and more, the
church became an important part of their lives." Duncan Littlefair was voicing the
philosophy which they had already believed bUt~had not been able to sort out the right
concepts. He was a master at articulating the religious ideas which were waiting to be
expressed in reasonable words. In fact, he was, without a doubt, the most outstanding
preacher that the Wilsons had ever heard.
Morley's job of selling lumber involved a lot of travel. While the company was
not applying pressure, a self-imposed pressure was always present. One day, Morley
received a telephone call from his friend Jack Van Vessum with whom he had worked
at the Veterans Administration. It seemed that Sunshine Hospital had lost their
�108
Business Manager and Jack thought Morley should apply. At about this time Morley
and another friend, AI Boscher, decided to quit their jobs because they were unhappy
with some of the ethical problems at Empire lumber. Both quit 011 the same day and
Morley applied for the job at Sunshine Hospital.
There were about 40 applicants and many of them had masters degrees in
hospital administration. Morley was interviewed by Dr. Ireland and by the Board of
Trustees, Larry Callahan, Ralleigh Stotz, and Phillip Buchen. It did not hurt that Dr.
Ireland and two of the trustees were members of Fountain Street Church. At any note,
Morley was hired and would continue to work for Kent County which owned Sunshine
(later Kent Community) and Kent Oaks Hospitals, until his retirement 20 years later.
Here he formed some of the closest and most important friendships. It is only fair to
say that he also made a few enemies.
The ushers of Fountain Street Church were chaired by Bill Dolle, and he asked
for ideas for a project. Morley volunteered to contact Eleanor Roosevelt who had been
active in the United Nations and international affairs after President Roosevelt's death.
She told Morley that she would come to speak at Fountain Street Church in January,
1958 for a fee of $1,000.00 if he could work out the details with her agent. At that time,
$1,000.00 was still a large sum of money so Bill and Morley agreed to underwrite the
U"···L~'
cost, in case the program did not raise enough money.
June Dolle was to present Mrs. Roosevelt with a bouquet at the airport, but she
became ill and Mary had the delightful task. Morley escorted her in a limo donated by
one of the local auto agencies. He had almost forgotten what a gracious lady she was.
Me did not anticipate the demands that would be made for her time by every political
..\~C)(
l"aeter who had ever known her.
A dinner was held at the Pantlind Hotel that evening with all of the ushers and
she spoke for over an hour at Fountain Street Church. Every seat in the 1750-seat
sanctuary was sold, the choir loft waselso sold, and an overflow crowd was able to
listen to her in the church dining room. Earlier in the day, a telephone caller caused
quite a bomb scare but the evening was a whopping success. She spoke about her
trip to Russia and about the Russian Educational system. Morley knew then that he
wanted to visit Russia and that some day he would go there.
During the time that Morley was escorting Mrs. Roosevelt he asked her how she
felt about the up-coming Presidential elections. She said she favored Adlai
�109
Stevenson but doubted if he would get the nomination. She said he lacked the grass
root earthiness necessary to capture the American voter's imagination. She indicated
that John Kennedy had that appeal but "might not be as dedicated to the job as a good
president should be". She talked about the challenge our country would face from the
communist countries and said we needed to keep a firm effort if we were not to be left
behind. After Mrs. Roosevelt returned, Morley did exchange a couple of letters with
her and she autographed a picture of herself taken when Morley was introducing her
to some noncoms in Australia. She later used some of his pictures in her books,
including one that had appeared in the Saturday Evening Post and Life Magazine.
Morley would never forget this marvelous lady.
The Godwin School Board elected Morley as Treasurer and sent him to New
York City in an attempt to upgrade their Standard and Poor rating for the bonds wtlich
they would sell. It was a good experience but otherwise unfruitful.
Rene Hobeke and Morley attended a seminar in Miami, Florida for
Administrators and Board Members, dealing largely with financial problems and
administration. One evening, they went down to the hotel bar for a night-cap and
struck up a conversation with a pretty lady. When she learned they were from Grand
Rapids, she asked if they knew Frank McKay. It was not long before she confided that
she was his girlfriend and lived at his hotel in North Miami. They bought her a couple
of drinks and her tongue got looser and looser. McKays political enemies might have
capitalized on some of this information, but neither Rene nor Morley ever used it.
Rene and Morley returned to Grand Rapids via Chicago on the first passenger
jet night between those cities. The owner of the airline rode in the plane and bought
champagne for them, several times. They were happy when they got back to Chicago.
At about this time, the Wilsons decided to build a new house. They wanted a
walk-in basement and found a lot within. Godwin district which met their needs. On
Thanksgiving Day, 1959, the Wilson famly moved from Manchester Road to 1225 Van
Auken, and almost immediately were faced with another problem. The City of Grand
Rapids wanted to expand and promised the residents in the new residential area, that
their taxes would be lowered and that their services would be expanded if they would
annex to the larger city. The voters fell for it and it later proved that both promises were
false.
Morley had to resign from the Godwin School Board and the School Board
threw a farewell party for him. When he returned home that night and opened his
�110
(
garage door, a huge sign (about 4' by 10') shown in his headlights. The sign had
been stolen and carried there, presumedly by his Godwin friends as a prank. It read,
"Grand Rapids, the All American City". He hid the sign in his garage for several years
and later built a dog house for Jane's "Nikka", an Alaskan malamute.
Ann and Jeff by agreement were allowed to continue in the Godwin system until
graduation. Jane did not meet the grade criteria so after a couple of years in the city
system, Wilsons paid her tuition so she could graduate with her friends at Godwin.
In about 1960, Morley was asked to join a golfing group. Ben Peterson, John
Kaye, and Gare Totten played once or twice a week for the next several decades.
They rotated between Saskatoon and Alpine with occasional games at Palmer Park,
the Elks Country Club, Grand Rapids Country Club, Hickory Hills, Broadmore, and
other area courses.
One day Morley was playing a short executive course on 28th Street with Ann.
Ann was not particularly athletic and her tee shot on a 135 yard hole went astray.
Morley was trying to teach her and he said "Now watch this shot. If I hit it right, it
should land on the edge of the hill, roll down the slope and into the cup." It happened
exactly in that manner for his first hole-in-one Ann was totally disgusted and said, "I'll
never play golf again with you."
.:;.-
.....
~,
Later in that same year, a group from the hospital went to Orchard Hills course
in the Gunn Lake Recreation Area. The group was playing "Bingo-Bango-Bongo". On
the 1Oth hole, near the club house, Morley again hit a hole-in-one, and he made the
mistake of thinking golf was an easy game. In 40 more years, he never again came
close. He should have qult while he was ahead, but few things in his life gave him
more pleasure. It also caused quite a lot of distress. Mary objected to the long hours
spent of the golf course and especially to the card games following the golf. She had
a point,. and their only serious arguments came on Sunday evenings, when she
carried the responsibility of raising the family.
Every summer, Morley attended 2 weeks of active duty in the Army Reserve.
One of his assignments was with the State Department. A good friend who was a
college professor from Michigan State University also happened to share this
assiqnrnent. Morley's work was pretty routine and dull but Lt. Col. James work was to
review and comment on the Cuban Bay-of-Pigs episode. His conclusion was that the
C.I.A. and the State De artment helped finance both but opposite sides of the fiasco.
�111
He studied thousands of classified documents dating back to before the ousting of
Batista and the rise of Castro.
Every evening he would discuss his findings with
Morley and he made a pretty strong case that the U.S. taxpayers financed both sides
of the Cuban revolution.
Morley enrolled in the Army Command and General Staff School and attended
several periods of active duty training at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Each time he
went, he became more thankful that he had not stayed in the active service. He did
teach Command and General Staff both at the Local level and at Fort Leavenworth.
He finally graduated and shortly after, he was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel, a rank
which he might have had immediately after World War II, if he had not been short
changed by the Air Force assignment.
Years afterwards, he applied for retirement
from the military, and was surprised that his retirement pay was so generous.
After Morley resigned from the Godwin School Board, Mary transferred her
teaching from Kelloggsville School District to Godwin, where she taught first grade
until her retirement.
Morley and Mary took the childen up to Moorestown to visit his parents. Jane
loved to ride horses-even the old farm animals She rode around and around the barn
and on one trip, she was gone a long while. Morley became anxious and ran around
:<-'.•
L . . . .'
the barn to discover that she was standing on the ground and the horse was rolling
over and over. He said, "How did you get off the horse?" She replied, "It was simple, I
just waited until the horse laid down, and I stepped off."
Later Morley's parents gave up the farm and moved into a house in
Moorestown. After a couple of years there, EI4Cm bought a house in Lake City and
they moved there. This would be their principal residence for as long as they lived.
One day Charlie Doyle asked if Morley's father and mother were getting Social
Security. He volunteered to visit them as a part of his job and in a few weeks they
were granted a small monthly pension.
They managed to "payoff" the $600.00
mortgage on the farm and live in meager circumstances, though never really
comfortable.
The family went East for vacation trips a few times when the children were in
grade school. Ann had a remarkable ability to remember routes and places of interest.
One year they stopped at a Homestead Restaurant in Ohio. It must have been 3 or 4
years later that they were going East on the same 11ighway, and Morley remarked that
�112
he wish he could remember the name and location of that restaurant they had like so
well. Ann said, "Dad, it was the Homestead Restaurant just off Exit 13, a few miles
ahead." The family could not believe that she had remembered this information so
precisely.
As the children grew older the family would go West to places like Estes Park,
Colorado Springs, the Grand Tetons, Yellow stone, etc. Each child was given an
allowance and encouraged to save it for the summer vacations, and they were very
frugal with their small savings. On one of the early trips West, Jeff went to an out-door
bathroom in a park where they had stopped. He came crying back to the car, saying
that he had dropped his pocketbook with all of his money down the toilet. Jeff said, "If
you hold me by my feet, I can reach it." Morley held him rightly around the ankles, and
Jeff actually picked up the wallet with his money still intact.
Fortunately, the
pocketbook and the money were not seriously contaminated and the incident would
provide the family with laughs for years to come.
On one trip to Wyoming, the Wilsons visited Fred Huffsmith in Casper, Wyoming.
He had been Morley's Executive Officer when he was commanding the 293rd Joint
•
Assault Signal Company on Luzon. They attended a rodeo, swapped stores
about the
/'
war and revived an old friendship that was deepened and ripened by the experience
of being in combat together. That is one of the few good things that can be said about
a war.
Morley was asked to run for the City of Grand Rapids School Board and was
narrowly defeated.
Mary was delighted and did some campaigning against his
election. She didn't want him to be away from home and the problems of raising the
children. Morley was not aware of her activities until long years afterword.
Morley became quite active in population control and became the founding
president of the local chapter of Zero Population Growth. Later, he was elected to:.ttle
Board of Planned Parenthood.
At about this time, Mary's father became quite ill and 'finally he was diagnosed
with terminal cancer of the prostrate.
His condition deteriorated rapidly, and he
passed away February 17, 1965. He had been a great help to Morley and was as
good a father-in-law as anyone could have. Morley missed him, Not just for the things
he did, but for his friendship and support. Peter had loved Ann, Jeff, and Jane and
Morley would never forget how his face would light up with joy whenever he saw his
�113
grandchildren. He regretted that he had not taken the children to see him more often.
He was such an unusual person. With only a third grade education, he had developed
an appreciation of classical music and he liked fine literature. What a person he might
have become with the opportunity to have had a fine education!
He ad intellect and
was a hard and skillful worker, all his life.
Morley's father, Fred, fell on the ice in Lake City during the late winter of 1966.
He had lain in the road for awhile until a minister and his wife discovered him. She
came out of their car and approached warily to within about 30 feet of him.
The
conversation went something like this:
Minister's wife: "I don't want to come any closer because I am afraid of you."
Fred: "Hell, Maam, you don't have' to be afraid of me. I've got a broken hip and I
couldn't do anything to you if I wanted to."
Anyway, they called for help and Fred went to Mercy Hospital in Cadillac. His
good nature and sense of humor made him a favorite of the musing staff. For instance,
when the nurse brought him a wash cloth and suggested that he try to wash himself,
He said, "What for, I haven't done anything dirty." He praised the hospital staff highly
and this, in turn, assured him of even better care.
~'
........
Morley and Mary visited him and were embarrassed at the manner in which he
-,
talked (in a loud voice) about someone who shared the ward. He ventured an opinion
about everyone elses illness and their dire
chanced of recovery. He was finally
discharged but on the way home from the hospital, apparently suffered a stroke, and
had to return shortly after. Unfortunately, Fred's condition worsened and he passed
away while still in the hospital. He only lived a short time. Eldon did the major part of
making the funeral arrangements and an old Methodist Minister, Roland Puffer, did a
masterful job of preaching his funeral sermon. He had a large funeral
becaJ.!~.ps
well liked by all who knew him. The minister (Puffer) did a masterful j09!~.ur:lting
his many attributes. Fred enjoyed his life and Morley could never remember of him
complaining about his poor luck. He accepted his role with relish and with a unique
sense of humor.
He was always honest and if there is any comical slant to this
biography, it surely comes from the genes passed down by Morley's father.
He
qenuinely liked people.
In 1966, Morley had the opportunity to visit Russia for 3 weeks with the Citizens
Exchange Corps. Mary said, if I can have a swimming pool, I think it would be a fair
�114
tradeoff. The Russian trip cost about 1200 dollars and the swimming pool several
thousand, but there were other considerations. They wanted to encourage Jeff with
his swimming team aspirations.
Minnie agreed to come to stay with Morley and Mary for a few weeks. On the
way back to Grand Rapids, it became apparent that she was getting much more senile.
SI1e repeated the same incidents many times, sometimes within two or three minutes,
and they began to realize just how much she had aged. Fred's death was a severe
shock to her. In that same period about 3 months after Morley's father passed away,
while Minnie was in Grand Rapids, she intended to sit down on the cedar chest
bedroom. She misjudged it's position and fell on the floor breaking her hip.
i~
the
He~w~s
was set in Blodgett Hospital and she seemed to be making an excellent recovery, so
she was transferred to Sunshine Hospital. Morley was undecided what he should do
about the Russian trip. He talked with the Doctor and felt reassured that she would
recover without incident, so he went to Russia.
In Brussels, Belgium they transferred from an American plaQ.e to a Russian
plane. What a difference! Seating, baggage racks and other amenities were very
sparse and the pressure controls were so bad that Morley's ears pained for several
days. They landed in Moscow where they were based in a large hotel. They visited
t/'., ......
several hospitals and found that the medications and equipment were very
inadequate-almost primitive.
Dr. Kenneth Nickel and his wife Marge, as well as
several other people from Grand Rapids were along on the trip. One thing they all
agreed upon, the loving, tender care given by the nursing staff was as good as. . they
had ever seen.
They interviewed several Doctors, news media and government
department heads. Morley and Marge Nickel walked several miles and let themselves
into an old Russian cemetery. The pictures of many of the departed souls were affixed
to the tombstones. Finally, they decided to return to the hotel, and when they tried to
get directions, the man-in-the-street, would not talk to them. After a struggle, they
found their way back to the hotel.
r
1.
(1Il.A.Y-\lA~4:' ~
They lined up to see Lenin's body and the people GOwrte5y insisted that they go
the the ~f the line. This avoided a 1/2 hours wait in the rain.
They visited a school and talked with some of the most attractive children one
could imagine. Morley gave away several packages of bubble gum which captNated
the children but n.Q1 the teacher. The children were obviously gifted and very curious
�115
about their visitors. They were very well behaved.
They next flew down to Sochi on the Black Sea. It was like another country,
The people were friendly,' informal and fun. Each morning Morley took his stock of
ball point pens, pictures and a small Sears catalog out to the beach.
Within 15
minutes a crowd of 75 to 150 people gathered around to ask questions, look at the
pictures and exchange views.
One persistent question kept coming up: "If the
Americans want peace, why are they going 10,000 miles to attack Vietnam?" Morley
finally developed an answer which went something like this: "Not all American agree
that we should be in Vietnam. Just like not all Russians would have agreed that your
should have attacked the students in BUdapest, Hungary in 1951. Perhaps when we
both grow enough to trust each other we may not have to resort to war and killing to
protect what some government officials think is their safety." It was risky to confront
them with this idea but it seemed to surprise them and he was sure some.did not even
know they had gunned down the students in their own neighboring countries.
One attractive young lady always sat in the front row of these meetings but
never contributed to the discussion. Morley was afraid that she might be with the KGB
so he tried to draw her into the conversation. He asked, "What do you thinj.about the
Berlin Wall?" She only smiled and he kept pressing for an answer.
#",,,~,
Finally, she
replied very slowly, "I love you." Needless to say, Morley was shocked because even
........
---.
in his younger days, no girl had ever said that excepting Mary after a long courtship.
The very muscular, tall Russian who seemed to be her friend said, "Do not be alarmed.
Those are the only three words she knows in the English language." Then he leaned
over and added, "Frankly, she doesn't know a hell of a lot more than that in Hussian.a
either."
Next they flew to Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) and visited a mental hospital.
It was a rather dreary experience. The building reminded one of some of our very
poorest State Hospitals. The lawns were kept mown by goats and one wondered if
many of the patients were really sick or were some being punished. There was a lot of
"work therapy" going on and perhaps that wasn't all bad.
The entire group took a day to tour the Hermitage, the former home of the Tsars.
It brought back pictures of the revolutionists storming through the gates and palace
grounds during the Red Revolution. The exhibits were fantastic and one could have
spent another day without boredom.
�116
l
{
Another day was spent visiting Peter The Greats' summer palace about 40
miles outside Leningrad.
It was interesting to see the restoration of the ceiling
paintings in progress. The artists were lying on their backs on flimsy scaffolding, 30
feet above the floor, a-la-Michael Angelo. The grounds were absolutely marvelous, if
slightly run down. The cascading fountains were a sight to behold and Morley tried to
imagine what it must have been like during the pre-revolutionary era.
A huge banquet was given by the Russian Health Department. Morley was
seated next to a no-nonsense lady doctor who headed up the hospitals they had
visited. His 8 ounce water glass was filled with vodka and many toasts were offered.
The Doctor kept insisting that Morley "drink up" and Morley kept looking for a place to
empty the contents of his glass. They had a rather heated discussion about freedom
and lack of freedom. She reminded Morley that it was one of his own presidents had
said freedom from want was so important.
She opined that unless one had
experienced severe hunger under the Tsars, they had no right to criticize lack of
freedom now. She recounted how she had been punished by being allowed only
bread crusts and water for three days-all because she had eaten one of the potato
peelings that she had been paring. At the time, she was only 5 years old and it helped
explain why she so readily accepted the communist restrictions.
The last night in Leningrad, Morley with his 35mm camera, strolled down one of
the main streets taking pictures. He saw a group of teem age boys about the age of
his son, Jeff and asked if he could take their picture. The reply was a harsh "Nyet".
Another pair of young Russians, about 20 years of age, overheard and approached
Morley. One young man said, "I wish to apologize for the poor manners of my fellow
countrymen. Please take my picture, if you wish." Morley did and after a pleasant
conversation, invited them to come to his hotel that evening for a drink of wine he had
been hoarding. They said they would try but cautioned that it might be dangerous.
They did show up at the hotel and after visiting in the cafe, they reluctantly accepted
his invitation. Morley was sharing a room with Rev. Jack Bowers, the leader of the
group, so it was a pretty fair bet that the room was bugged. The first thing they did was
to turn the radio volume very high but even then it was plain to see that they wer
uncomfortable. It was decided to "walk the streets" in the rain. They asked question
that indicated they were hungry for freedom and it goes to show
ho~.js~ed
drive people to take disparate risks. Morley asked why they didn't apply for a
wil
�117
passport and visit the United States. They replied that the moment they asked for a
passport they would be a "marked person", and nothing but trouble would follow. "It is
just completely out of the question," they said. "It is absolutely hopeless."
He said a very sad and troublesome farewell at about 2:00 AM and he has
nothing but his pictures of these two young musicians to remind him of their plight. If
Morley ever gets discontented with his lot, he drums up the memory of these two
young men living out their life of desperation. He wonders what ever became of them.
We should never take our freedom lightly.
The next morning, they ended their stay in Russia and flew back to the United
States. When Morley landed at O"Hare Airport he called Mary and she told him the
sad news. Morley's mother has passed away while he was in Russia from a massive
stroke. She had lived only a little over three months after Fred had died. Morley had
some guilt feelings that he had not been there during her last days, though the medical
staff did their best to reassure him the it was unexpected and that he could have dome
nothing if he had been present.
Mary had called Eldon and he had taken care of all the arrangements. Fred
and Minnie cared deeply for each other and they had lived together for well over 50
years. Morley had never known them to have a serious argument. their livelihood left
a lot to be desired but they had each other and their family. The lack of money and
things did not keep them from being happy. Minnie had many bouts of severe illness,
and there were medica.l bills, always medical bills. Yet, they never accepted welfare
assistance and were as proud as could be of their independence.
After Peter Pellegrom had passed away, Dena(Mary's mother) sold the house
immediately and she lived most of the time with Mary's brother and sister, Gare and
Ruth. She would come to stay with Mary and Morley for a month or so at a time but it
was not always easy. One of the children or Mary and Morley had to sleep in the
basement. They often wished that they
~ finished another bedroom.
Mary was still
teaehinq school ,and Mother Pellegrom did~tlike to be left alone. Sister Ruth was
an angel, and never complained about ~.fnC6nvenience of have a mother-in-law
disrupting her life.
The Wilson's 'finished their swimming pool and it was Mary who really loved it.
She used it almost every sunny day and many that were not so sunny. Jeff dropped
out of the Godwin swimming program but all the children would continue to come
�home
,(
118
for many years and it was the pool plus Mary;s good cooking that acted like a magnet.
Jeff was learning to drive and had a series of accidents that worried his parents.
After
being~ounded
for 30 days, he took the car to one of the local malls. He spotted
some of his friends and while waving to them, back-ended another car. One night, he
'Flipped over the Volkswagen beetle and the Wilsons found themselves in the
emergency room at 2:00 AM. At least, the Wilsons did not own a motorcycle, so they
lived through this phase.
Ann graduated from Godwin High and had to choose a college. Her advisor,
Mrs. Thibodeau, had informed her that she was not "college material". She came
home weeping and told Morley and Mary that she wanted to be a teacher. Morley
said, "Why 'r'On't we ignore that advise and try it for a year. You are a year younger
than your classmates, so if you waste a year, it won't make that much difference." She
enrolled in Central Michigan University and it was soon apparent that she was an
excellent student. So much for student counseling.
Godwin High School held an open house and Mary and Morley visited the
teacher's rooms where Jeff was assigned. One such room was the "History class".
The teacher, an athletic coach and part time teacher, addressed the parents. He
explained that he didn't know what to tell them because "History is such a dull SUbject".
One has to wonder why they assign such a person to teach one of the most interesting
and important subjects.
During these years, the Wilsons would put a down-payment on a house and
then rent it. While they never experienced huge profits, it was a profitable venture and
it kept Morley occupied evenings and weekends. When they had the opportunity they
would sell the house and usually reinvested the money in another one. Altogether
they owned four rental properties, but usually only one or two at a time. Eventually
they sold all of them as the maintenance time became too much of a burden. Such
things as repairs, cleaning and painting and showing the property
to,p~,ctive
renters, got very burdensome.
Meanwhile, the job at Sunshine Hospital kept Morley very busy. He studie&,
visited other facilities and attended seminars at University of Indiana, University of
Michigan and University of Chicago.
He applied for admission to the College of
Hospital Administration. At first he was rejected because of insufficient scholastic
�119
credentials but later was permitted to take the examinations and had no difficulty in
passing the written and oral examinations.
Sunshine Hospital had passed the
accreditation requirements thanks to Dr. Ireland's efforts as well as a very efficient staff.
Morley was happy in his job, though he was severely shaken when his secretary was
caught in an insurance billing scam for which she was convicted and incarcerated for
approximately one year. It was not easy to testify against someone whom he liked and
trusted so completely.
A new hospital, Kent Oaks, was built on the same campus and the
Administrator, Ben Jones, became very ill, almost immediately. Morley was asked to
assume responsibility for the administration of that mental health facility.
So for
approximately three years, he supervised both hospitals. Unfortunately this built a little
resentment on Dr. Ireland's part but it was a catch 22 situation. There was no way
Morley could refuse the added duties and stay in the good graces of the county
officials.
Vollie Jones was the head nurse and fortunately, she did a lions' share of the
work. She was a great person with which to work. She never resented Morley's
impositions and soon they became good friends. In the meantime, Ben Jones passed
away and the job lasted longer than was anticipated.
Ann spent her summers at home and she worked as a waitress in order to help
finance her college expenses. Her ability to organize and to remember apparently
stood her in good stead as the Wilsons had very good reports about her work. Morley
used to pick her up after her work at about 11 :00 PM. He usually waited outside the
restaurant. On one such occasion, he was waiting in Holly's parking lot on Jefferson
Avenue when he heard a public telephone ringing. It kept ringing so he finally climbed
out of his car and answered it. A creepy voice said, "I have the back of your head in
my rifle sight. Morley suspected it was someone trying to frighten him so he replied,
"Well, why don't you go ahead and pull the trigger?" After he had time to think it over,
he decided that was a very stupid suggestion but fortunately nothing ha,med. The
next year Ann worked at Sayfees restaurant where the neighborhood was different.
Her true character began to shine through.
Another waitress had served several
people at a table and the diners had left without paying the check. The policy of the
restaurant was to deduct such losses from the tips and wages of the waitress. Ann felt
so sorry for the waitress that she and some of the other waitresses voluntarily shared
�120
in the deficit. It seemed an unfair policy to Ann but it goes to show that corporate greed
can happen at any level.
The Officials of Kent County decided to close Maple Grove Medical Care Facility
and to enlarge Sunshine Hospital from 180 beds to 540 beds. There had been a
gradual reduction in tuberculosis patients from 180 down to about 50. In order to
utilize the empty beds, the hospital started admitting chronic medical patients. These
were mostly, but not entirely, stroke cases, heart cases and cancer cases.
It was not long before there were for more so-called chronic medical patients
than tuberculosis patients.
After several meetings with out Board and County officials, it was decided to
build a large addition to Sunshine Hospital. It was to be a 370 bed addition totaling
550 beds. A local architect, Robert Wold, was contacted and given a contract to draw
up the plans. Morley was named the coordinating person to assist in the planning and
development of the new facility. It would henceforth be known as Kent Community
Hospital.
Many meetings with staff and architect were held. Morley sensed a resentment
on Dr. Ireland's part which grew. He felt that was, in part, because the county was
consultinq with him instead of with Dr. Ireland. He was not able to breach this growing
se, .......,
schism. He finally decided that he would ignore it and held many staff meetings in
which he needed medical input but managed to get along by consulting with others.
This only served to exacerbate the situation and just before the County Board
appointed their own hospital board, Dr. Ireland resigned. He was certainly a pioneer
in tuberculosis treatment, and Morley respected him for that. He had reduced T~B in
Kent County more than any other person and he should always be honored for that.
He had a paranoia about county supervisors, mostly based upon his experience at
other governmental facilities. He was not all wrong but he let it gnaw at
hi~
psyche
until it affected his ability to perform his principal task. He called Morley into his office
and said that the two of them should resign at the same time. Morley said that he
could not afford to do this. From that day on he did not speak to Morley again. He
carried out his plans to resign and Dr. Boet acted as temporary medical director. To
Dr. Ireland's credit, it should be mentioned that he was under an enormous tension
during his last two years. His wife died with cancer and he simply did not have the
patience to endure a building program, government red tape and the uncertainties of
�121
reimbursement from Medicare and Medicaid. Morley felt like he had lost a friend but
he did not quite know what to do about it.
The next few months were hectic at the hospital. The County "Axed" the old
board by the simple expedient of not reappointing them. This was a terrible blow to
people like Larry Callahan who had given so much of his time and had truly donated
thousands of hours of his time. Phil Buchan had already resigned to take up his duties
as chief legal advisor to President Gerald Ford. The County let it be known that the
new Administrator would not be a physician and invited Morley to apply for the job.
After due consideration, Morley said he would accept the job if appointed by
recommended that the new Board hire a graduate from the Hospital Administration
program.
It wasn't long before the politics of the situation began to evolve. Howard Claus
called Morley to say that he was interested in the job but would not want to apply
unless Morley indicated that he would be willing to act as assistant. Claus further
stated that he had an inside track for the appointment if he submitted his application.
Morley assured Howard that he would not oppose him and would be willing to stay on
in an assistants role, if that was the decision of the new board. It was all pretty much
cut and dried. Fred Winter was appointed chairman of the new board and from that
#", ...~.
date, Morley soon learned that Fred Winters was the Administrator, Howard was the
. , Associate Director and Morley was the 2ncf Associatea with little influence.
The housekeeper complained to Morley because the activity/chapel room was
taking so long to set up. Howard had objected to the ceiling mounted movie screen
being mounted in the front of the room (over the pulpit).
He had ordered the
housekeeper to move it to a more obscure place in the rear of the room. This meant
moving and turning all of the chairs twice a week. Morley was incensed and felt that
Howard was wrong in interfering in his departmental operation.
Howard seldom
made prompt decisions. He usually said, "I want to sleep on it." Deciphered, that
meant he would ask his wife about it and if he was still in doubt he would check with
Fred Winter. Morley confronted Howard and Howard said he would think about his
decision. The screen stayed in the rear and the only point gained was that he agreed
to discussion before interfering with those functions assigned to Morley.
Another time, the Gideon Bible representative asked Morley for permission to
place one Bible in each of the patient desk drawers. Morley replied that he would
�12Z.
accept a dozen Bibles to be kept in the Patients' Library and the patients who desired
them could have them in their rooms. About a week later, a large shipment of Bibles
arrived (approximately 550 Bibles).
The Gideon representative had gone over
Morley's head and obtained permission from Howard. Again, Morley confronted
Howard and again Morley lost the argument.
One day, Howard informed Morley that Fred Winter had a friend who was a
medical social worker and Fred wanted the hospital to hire him as Chief Social
Worker. Morley stalled to check the applicant's credentials. He found that they were in
order but his references were very shaky. He had been discharged from two positions
because of his penchant for improper physical contact with the female staff. Morley
checked with Kent Community Social Worker. She knew the applicant and said she
would tender her resignation rather than work with this person.
Based upon this information, Morley went to a meeting with Fred Winter and
Claus and took the firm position that he would not hire this applicant. Fred Winter was
incensed and said that he didn't care what information Morley had, that he knew this
man to be a fine Christian gentleman and that Howard should go ahead and hire him.
After a very heated discussion, Fred said, the "This man goes to my church and I say
hire him." Morley said, "I don't give a
s'~jt
what church he belongs to, I simply do not
want him as my employee." At this point, Fred rose from his chair and said, "Well, I
care what church he goes to and don't your ever forget it." Morley said, "Alright but if
you force me to hire this man I will go public with it and this argument could end up on
the front page of the Grand Rapids Press." The meeting ended, and the next day,
Morley was transferred as the new director of Kent Oaks Hospital. He was relieved of
his duties at Kent Community Hospital. The never did hire the applicant in question.
You can fight City Hall. but sometimes it is not financially rewarding. Howard was
(IV
given a generous raise .pay and Morley received a 2% increase instead of the 5-'-- /0 -Z....,
increase other employees received.
Morley was warmly welcomed at Kent Oaks by both the employees and the
medical staff. For the next seven years,m he was pretty much isolated from Kent
Community Hospital happenings and was allowed to run Kent Oaks as he saw fit.
Morley had a difficult time recruiting Medical Directors. Eugene Sevensma was first
but after about three years he went into private practice. Finally, Morley persuaded
Kenneth Nickel to accept the job and 'from that day , his life was easier.
�12~
Betsy Vandercook was his secretary and she proved to be like his right arm.
Vollie Jones was Director of Nursing and was wonderful i:> work with. When Vallie
retired, Sharon Ward took over her duties. With only very minor problems, Kent Oaks
became a first rate hospital for the treatment of the mentally ill. It became the eecond
mental hospital in Michigan to become accredited by the Joint Commission, and life
seemed too good to be true.
One day, the Chairman of the Board of county Commissioners visited and upon
leaving said, "Morley, we have always been good friends so I want to give you a.tle
advice. We were both in the military and you know how important it is to polish the
brass. When members of the Board of County Commissioners call on you, be sure to
roll out the Red Carpet. It doesn't hurt to serve a nice steak or do whatever you can to
get on the right side of them."
Morley thanked him but continued to serve the same food that the patients were
served. He felt that it would have been dishonest to have done otherwise.
During this time several programs at Kent Oaks were enlarged. In particular,
the out-patient treatrwnt and the day care programs were increased and yet the
patient care continued to grow.
Mary's Mother became quite ill and had to be placed in a nursing home. She
was only there a few weeks and had serious problems. She died in the night and her
family missed her
~:rgf~1
Her good work ethic, her counsel, her wonderful cooking
and her respect for what is good and true fill memories which will last as long as her
family lasts.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WilsonM
Title
A name given to the resource
Wilson, Morley (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wilson, Morley
Description
An account of the resource
Morley Wilson joined the Michigan National Guard in 1937, resigned briefly in 1940, and rejoined to serve in World War II in the 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division, in Australia, New Guinea and the Philippines. He served most of the war as a supply officer, but also worked with engineers and had other administrative duties. On one occasion he served as host to Eleanor Roosevelt when she visited his unit in Australia. Poems and personal narrative appended to outline.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States--National Guard
Video recordings
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-02-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b76d741867f4a1d251f44243cdc9394f.mp4
1dae2ff1357659f8364199ea9814807e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/baa250354e4d03528faad2c84b23e297.pdf
3f9a6f4becf15e4737ce353bc3973c6f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Tommy Williams
World War II
(11:53)
Background Information (00:11)
Born August 26th 1920 (00:12)
At the age of 18 before he joined the Army, Tommy worked in the field. (1:02)
He was raised in Mississippi. (1:25)
Military Service (1:49)
His basic training included emphasis on physical activity as well as a lot of peeling potatoes.
(2:00)
Tommy was in Germany when the war ended in 1945. He does not recall what town. (2:40)
Tommy served in combat in Italy and Germany during his service. (2:53)
He served as a loader. (Possibly for artillery or another large gun). (3:28)
The gun would fire at tanks or men. (4:24)
Tommy spent approx. 2 years on the front lines (Approx. 1943-1945). (4:44)
There were some casualties in his unit but not a drastic amount. (4:50)
When not on the front line, the men commonly spent their time doing pickup sports games.
(5:30)
Tommy frequently wrote home to stay in touch with his family. (5:55)
He was not taught any new skills through his service. (6:36)
End of Service (6:53)
He exited the military in October of 1946. (7:16)
After the war ended, Tommy returned to Mississippi where he spent much of his time resting.
(7:29)
He moved to Michigan in 1951 (7:48)
Effects of Service (8:17)
Tommy made some close friends while in the military. He is no longer in touch with any of them.
(8:17)
He worked picking cotton after he returned home from the war. (9:00)
His military experience exposed him to a lot of different people and cultures. (9:45)
Tommy is a member of the American Legion. (10:00)
Tommy is in the Legion for the same reason he was in the service, he likes to help people.
(10:58)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WilliamsT1368V
Title
A name given to the resource
Williams, Tommy (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Williams, Tommy
Description
An account of the resource
Tommy Williams, born August 26th 1920 in rural Mississippi, served in the U.S. Army from approximately 1943-1946. During his service, Tommy worked as a loader for a heavy gun and served in combat in Italy and Germany. He was discharged in October of 1946 and in 1951, moved to Michigan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Barron, Kayla (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-10-04
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ba5f97b176dffec193c0212fdc5d7075.mp4
66f5de71a763809b5b33e52fd34454fd
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75fcad0eb4e0119d74693edc4129cda9.pdf
82d7b1e08ccefd6414c61021d6dd8ed8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam
Name of Interviewee: Roger Williams
Length of Interview: 00:27:10
Background:
He spoke in his native language to the interviewer.
What he said was that his name means “little fat pig.” His grandmother gave him that
name. He also has a spirit name.
He feels very honored for being invited to participate in this project.
He was born August 1940, in Holland, Michigan.
He served in the United States Air Force. His highest rank was E4.
He served two periods, from 1957-1961 at San Antonio.
He served at a hospital there for some time.
He got out in 1961 and got back in to serve in the Vietnam War in 1962 and would serve
until 1967.
He did not go to Vietnam and was not in combat.
He enlisted in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
He was raised in Holland until he was 12 years old. Although he has a Native American
heritage, he is mostly Dutch. He would have loved to take part in the Tulip Time parade,
but that never happened.
He went to high school in Muskegon but did not finish. He would finish high school
while he was in the service and started college while he was in the service also.
He made a great number of friends while he was in the service. He actually was able to
reach out to a friend who he went to medical school with in Montgomery. His daughter
would find him over Facebook. He doesn’t know what will happen but he hopes to
reconnect with him.
He had quit high school and things were not going so well for him. He had great work
ethic, but the jobs were not that good.
At 17 he was starting to get in trouble.
When he was still in school, he went into his school’s counselor’s office, and asked about
what he should do. The man told him that if he graduated with a B average, he would
help him get into the US Naval Academy.
As a poor kid with little support, it didn’t occur to him that it was a wonderful offer. So
when he was 17, he started to think about it some more, and thought the military was a
good place for him to be.
So he joined the Air Force.
Training (6:54)
When he first went into the Air Force they had a 12 weeks basic training program.
He was a pretty unrestricted man, so basic training was very good for him. It gave him
discipline, it gave him boundaries; it gave him a better way of life.
Following basic training, he went to a medical prep school for about 8 weeks.
�
In this he learn the basics of how the hospital is run, the history of medicine, etc.
Following that he went to a school in Montgomery, Alabama. He thought about being a
field medic, but they wanted him to be an Administrative Medic.
So when he got to San Antonio, he was basically helping to run the hospital.
Adapting to military life was a big change for his life. It was a little difficult and it kind
of stressed him out. He wasn’t a very big guy, but he did what he had to change.
Active Duty (9:30)
During the first part of his career, most of his time was served at the hospital, in San
Antonio.
He did a lot of administrative work, such as choosing which patients to admit. He was
responsible for sending telegrams when someone died.
There were responsibilities for taking inventory of who came in and who died in what
way.
One of the most traumatic experiences he had was when he had to do an inventory on
dead person’s personal effects, which was zero. The guy had crashed a plane and his
body was in a lot of different pieces in the rubble and dirt.
Opening the bag up and seeing the dirt, he thought they were playing a joke on him at
first, but it was quite a shocker for him when he found out a body was actually in there.
Another one was a Mexican boy’s body came in and he had to do inventory on him.
When he pulled the sheet back, the boy looked exactly like him, with his head caved in.
And that was a shocker.
The second part of his service was spent in Miami. It was party city for him.
The Cuban Crisis came along and he was at the Homestead air base.
He had first-hand experience with his time during this time.
Following the Cuban Crisis, John Kennedy came to the base and awarded them a special
award.
He would then go to Germany, which was also a lot of fun. There was still a lot of work
to be done.
While there, he was the administrator.
He would then move to France, just outside of Paris. He was able to Paris in his off time
and go to the Paris Opera House. He got to see a lot of artistic things he got to see
including the Mona Lisa and Cleopatra’s Needle.
He would also go to museums there as well. (15:20)
While he was there, the war was still going on. He would be there prepping guys for war
and taking care of those who came back from war.
He would read the newspapers and read about how so many of those guys were dying and
it bothered him tremendously.
The people of the USA were starting to speak out against the war.
It was his time to get out and he did.
He feels bad because the job was not getting done and it was the soldiers who were
paying the price.
Post Duty and other stories (18:05)
�
It is always difficult when a friend dies. When he was in France, a buddy of his was
driving to Paris one night and had a seizure and he and the passenger died. It was a pretty
bad time for him because he was on duty when they brought the bodies in.
They came in and he didn’t know about the accident yet. He walked in and saw their
bodies lying on the slab and that’s when he found out.
He was not mistreated when he came home from the service, while serving in Vietnam.
His family was there for him when he came home and they were very supportive. He has
a way in his community where they truly honor veterans.
The guys who came home from Vietnam were treated badly. It was horrible and quite
real.
One of the things that the community doesn’t know is that natives have a higher rate of
enlistees than the whole. 1 of 4 compared to 1 of 10
Part of that is no so much that we are loyal, but they have a real sense of connection to
the earth around them. Veterans are represented in a different way because of the culture.
In order to honor the customs of his community, he gives the interviewer some items
from his culture, in exchange for letting him be a part of this project.
He continues to serve his community; to show it he collects buttons, awards and other
patches.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WilliamsRo
Title
A name given to the resource
Williams, Roger (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Williams, Roger
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Williams is a Native American who served in the United State Air Force as a medical Administrator in two separate tours between 1957 and 1967. He was stationed in Texas, Florida and Germany, and was at the Homestead , Florida, air base at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Kimes, Emily (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Air Force
Indians of North America
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-04
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8654b417ebfcbe7ffd1d69c541a959f9.mp4
c923c370bc32bf7d5d99302ce37c41de
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac2c0518c15933cf0afd1a9b130c3596.pdf
b35674114ec9931e93ce5b94c1f4075b
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Robert Williams
(1:14:13)
(00:25) South Bend, Indiana
• Born May 22 1917
• Robert was an only child
• Graduated in 1935 from South Bend Central High School
• Worked for the Northern Indiana Public Service Company after graduation. He worked
as a customer service representative when he was drafted
(1:49) April 9 1941 Drafted into the Army
• Robert knew before being drafted that the United States needed to do something about
the war
• Had his physical in January in a building with volunteer doctors-passed the exam
• Took train to Columbus Ohio. They picked up guys on the way in other cities. Arrived
at 2 a.m. and assigned beds to sleep in for the night.
• Robert was on KP duty, day before Easter
• (5:00) Robert pulled off KP and told he was departing. Took train to Camp Shelby,
Mississippi
Camp Shelby, Mississippi
• The men were housed in tents
• Indiana national guard was there
• 700-800 people there total
• Told to wash mess kits
• Training-went to communication school for two months
• (7:20) Battery D of 491st field artillery
• Built up to maneuvers in Louisiana in 1941
• 155 Howitzers trained on
• Tornado hit their camp
• Given leave
• Everyone over 28 years old were released from service
• (9:30) Robert was promoted to Corporal
• He was Corporal of the Guard the day Pearl Harbor was hit-utter chaos
• Orders received for those with high IQ to sign up for officer candidate school
• Robert qualified-sent to school in early May to Fort Sill Oklahoma
�(10:30) Fort Sill Oklahoma-Officer training school
• Went thru class 23 of officer training school
• First large class they had go thru
• Every week 500 more arrived
• Passed OCS
• A week or two before leaving charts were posted on walls of vacancies in class 500
people down to 375 people-the rest washed out
• (12:50) Tac Officers were training the soldiers
• Told officer he wanted to join the 11th artillery division-felt there was opportunity for
promotions in the squad
• Went on leave
(14:00) Camp Polk Indiana August 1942
• Assigned to Battery D of the 471st field artillery (6 guys from the OCS)
• Robert was Executive Officer because he was in the longest
• A combat command was forming-they wanted a field officer to join-Robert was excepted
as the artillery officer for Combat Command A for the 11th Armored Division
• Robert was the company commander of the unit
• They company went to Texas then onto desert training then into California
• May 29 1943-Robert was married while still stationed at Camp Polk-She came with him
until California and went home to give birth to daughter-stayed home while Robert went
overseas
(18:50) Left for New York City
• Received orders to report to England
• Didn’t have equipment till getting to England
• Left in the middle of September 1943
• Left England in early December-half of division was on land half was still coming when
Bulge happened. Pocket of Germans kept them from getting there. Heavy fighting.
• Arrived at the Bulge on Christmas Day-they didn’t do much but did help out
(21:00) Attached to 3rd Army-12th Corps
• Robert saw Patton a few times-says it’s a lot like the movie of Patton-it was in a parade
• Robert was an assistant to G3 training camp
• Worked a G3 section while traveling-includes communication work picked up
information and get it to headquarters. Worked with liaison officers also.
• 4th armored division was massacred-sent combat team(infantry men, tank, engineers,
artillery) camp was bulging-all of the sudden it was gone-heard platoon was down to 5o
men by the end of the battle
• (27:29) Robert said the resistance was there but they were able to make 35 mile
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
advancements everyday. His group moving a little faster than the infantry divisions.
Squad leader joined the G3’s because he couldn’t handle anymore fighting-he became the
driver for the G3’s. He said it wasn’t the combat but more the anticipation of going
around hills not knowing what was on the other side.
(29:40) Early May they were ordered to stop advancing.
6 star boundary-between U.S. troops and the Russian troops. They waited for the
Russian troops to arrive.
Russian soldiers were trying to get to the American Zone
(32:57) Robert saw civilian population everywhere in Germany-there were ruins
everywhere-When Robert flew over Cologne there was no roof tops that he could see left
Relationships with civilians were good; they mostly left the soldiers alone. Robert could
feel the mood change a little to resentment but not substantially.
His company relieved Camp Mauthausen, a concentration camp, where there were a stack
of bodies. Guards fled as they arrived. The people were so ill that they died anyways.
Afterwards they had strict orders that if they liberated a concentration camp not to feed
them because it would kill them. They needed to eat broth slowly.
Robert didn’t feel anger toward Germany people but the first time he seen an SS officer
he wanted to shoot him but didn’t
(36:20) On one occasion they sat on side roads watching prisoners come back-he fired a
round on commander’s orders and 12 SS soldiers came out of the woods
They were stationed in Austria when the war ended. Most of the men were scheduled to
go to Japan. Very few had enough points to go home. They were all split up into
different camps.
Robert went to the 4th armor division to head back home instead of to Japan
At Camp Lucky Strike, France before leaving-they packed up to get on the boat-boat was
damaged so they guys had to wait for a new boat to arrive
(39:00) Robert was at Camp Lucky Strike when war in Japan ended
Robert was promoted to Major before heading home
(40:00)Back to the states-Michigan
• Went back to the electric company he had worked for
• Left and worked for an appliance repair company in South Bend Indiana
• Went to Morley Brothers for 10 years
Wholesale appliance company-1952. Williams Kitchen and Bath
• Annual sales were $451,000
• (43:00) Became a distributor for Amana-this was before they were a popular brand-1956
• Son came to work for him for a year-is now running it
• Company is split up with his sons now
• Robert has been retired for 25 years now
�•
Grandson now works for him
(46:00) Service in the guard
• Took a reduction in rank till Majors job opened up
• Became S1 126th infantry regiment-stationed at headquarters 10-11 years
• During the Korean War-he was scheduled to go but Truman turned them down
• Became Executive officer of the 2nd battalion of the 126th infantry
• Became Battalion Commander then Combat Commander
• Became Assistant Commander of the 46th infantry division
• (48:20) General Simmons was the Commanding General
• The division broke up and Robert went to Brigade Commander
• Stayed in the guard for 26 years till they retired him in 1982
• Total service of 31 ½ years
• (51:00) Robert says it was rewarding receiving the General’s star. This was a strenuous
procedure. Robert’s friends told him that the FBI came to them asking about him.
Reflections on the War
• When Robert heard about the bombing in Japan he says they were all disgusted by it. At
that point their invasion money was taken away and eventually given back because of the
men were all upset about it. Things settled down as they knew there was nothing they
could do about it
• (55:10) One of the saddest moments was when his division commander was relieved
because they had come to a line awaiting another infantry division and they never showed
up. Commanders were upset that he didn’t go in and take the hill and so they relieved
him of his duty. This happened shortly after the Bulge.
•
(57:30) Robert feels that the reason they were able to push the Germans back was
because they simply over powered them. He said that there were graves of German
soldiers and all that died were between 16-18years old.
•
Robert and Jane have been married for 64 years. They have 3 children and many
grandchildren all of but one live in Grand Rapids. From the Time Robert was drafted till
he was off the military board, he put in a total of 60 years of service in the military.
•
(1:00:33) Robert talks about meeting the Russians after the war was over. Russians came
over on the 4th of July for a celebration and all that came could speak English. He says
they were very friendly people and they ate dinner that night and they left for home.
Robert seems like it was a good experience but they never saw them again.
•
Robert joined the National Guard because as he talked to a man who came into his
�appliance store that was in the National Guard, he was instructed he would get paid for
coming in one night a week. For Robert it was enough to pay his house payment at the
time.
•
(1:04:00) While Robert was Assistant Division Commander they went to Detroit in 1967
in charge of 3000 troops on the hot spots. This was during riots. They took firepower off
of the streets, which took pressure off. First time there was for 10 days, the second was
for only 2 days. They received riot training after this episode.
•
(1:10:15) Austrian military was equipped with horse drawn vehicles. Across the road
you could see dead horses just laying there, hundreds of them. When the U.S. came
across and shot at them, they couldn’t get the horses across fast enough. Many had
frozen there because of the temperatures being so cold.
•
Toward the end of the war, food was becoming scarce. The commander would trade
horses that they found for food from the farmers to keep everyone fed.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WilliamsR
Title
A name given to the resource
Williams, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Williams, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Williams served in the U.S. Army and National Guard for nearly 50. He served during WW II in the 11th Armored Division and saw action in the Battle of the Bulge and in Germany and Austria, where they were ordered to halt and wait for Soviet troops to arrive. After the war, he remained in the Guard, commanding a unit sent to respond to the riots in Detroit in 1967 and eventually retiring at the rank of Brigadier General.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-07-09
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4bcd711490e9aca7250a65a337a31a25.mp4
8b80c822e284d6c6bd266e7794d6a819
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/349e6de5cc6e848443bc302342da8ab4.pdf
ee17e41b86ab846207075de9dfa8fc42
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Jane Williams
(22:58)
(00:20) Background Information
•
•
•
•
Born in Indiana in 1915
Jean was born during a flu epidemic
Her grandfather died from the epidemic
Her father was a farmer, but lost the farm in the depression and then went to work in
South Bend
(2:02) After High School
•
•
•
Jane attended at Purdue University in Indiana for one year
Afterwards she worked at Northern Indiana Public Service Coompany at a telephone
operator
Later she worked for an insurance company
(3:30) Marriage
•
•
•
•
•
•
She got married to Bob and then they moved to Louisiana
She met him at a gas company in Indiana; he was a meter reader
She got married in 1943 after they had been dating for 7 years
They were dating while he was in service and they did not get to see each other that often
Jane lived with her parents until she got married when she was 28 years old
Jane and Bob moved from Louisiana to Texas, Nevada, California, and then Jane moved
back to Louisiana while Bob was overseas
(5:40) Louisiana
• In Louisiana they shared a house with another couple that was very nice
• There lots of nice people in the state
• Jane had a baby after they had been married for one year
(6:20) Texas
• They stayed in the state for less than a year
• They lived near a grocery store and there were crickets all over the sidewalks
�•
•
Bob was not home very often and Jean cooked a lot to stay busy
Cooking was not that difficult even with the rationing of goods on the bases
(9:30) California
• They lived in a trailer with lots of chickens in the yard
• They had no heat except a kerosene stove that made everything smell bad
(11:50) While Bob Was Training
• Jane was worried about the progress of the war
• She was very busy after having her baby and was not working
• Her sister lived across the street and they many days having dinner together
• She heard from her husband quite often with his letters, but he never mentioned anything
regarding the war
• It was difficult for Jane to raise their baby by herself and her mother lived with her for a
while to help her
(14:30) Finances
• Jane and Bob received money from the Army even after he had came home from service,
but they had to send it all back
(16:30) An Overall Positive Experience
• Though it was difficult, Jane said that she benefited from the experience and that she met
many nice people while traveling
(17:15) The End of Bob’s Time in the Service
• It was very exciting when she got a letter from her husband saying that he was coming
home
(19:50) Pearl Harbor
• Jane did not have a good memory of the incident
• Her husband was already in the service at the time
(20:50) Roosevelt’s Death
• She does not remember the incident very well, but she is a Republican and did not care
for either of them
(21:50) Dropping of Bombs in Japan
• There was much celebration and lots of talk
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WilliamsJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Williams, Jane (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Williams, Jane
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Williams was born in Indiana in 1915 and was the wife of a man in the service during World War II. Bob and Jane had been seeing each other for seven years before they got married. Because Bob was in the service, their relationship was not average. They traveled all over the country before they got married and Jean did not have her first child until she was 29 years old.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Civilian
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-07-16
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/13dabf9fe3324d3422eaca92206cfbf2.mp4
d93fe5575a4bebc92d914abf7a862fd1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be0df397b8dfec2396aa46eedbcd2531.pdf
aba96552cf94e79b7883673c513ff13c
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Colin Williams
Total Time – (57:00)
Background
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
He was born June 9, 1927 (00:11)
He decided to enter the war because he had four brothers that were in the service
(00:47)
o Everything during those days was very patriotic
He was 17 years old when he entered (01:10)
He chose the Navy because he did not want to sleep in the mud like the Army
soldiers did
There was an expectation that men of his age would join the military (01:42)
Different branches of the military would go to high schools and put on
presentations
There were 52 men from Michigan that enlisted
Enlistment/Basic Training – (02:25)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
He went to boot camp at Great Lakes, Illinois (02:53)
In boot camp, they were trained with high discipline
o They would get yelled at in their face
o They would be woken up at 2 A.M. (04:03)
There was nothing that was too difficult about the training
He immediately missed home and his girlfriend (04:31)
Before the war, he had never traveled out of the state (04:52)
His experiences at boot camp helped prepare him for what he would experience in
the war
There were classes where they had to learn spotting of different planes and ships
(06:35)
The trip from Great Lakes, Illinois to the west took nearly five days (08:07)
o He had never been out west before so he traveled with the windows open
on the train every night and day
When he first saw his ship in the west he said, “Oh mamma, what did I get myself
into?” (09:26)
He never had a feeling that it would be the last time he would see America
(09:52)
�Active Duty – Part I – 14 Voyages Across the Pacific (09:56)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
When he first went on, he was a deckhand until he worked in the chaplain's office
The ship was a transport ship – Nearly 11 million men were transported by that
type of ship (11:09)
o The ships also carried gasoline
They landed on Eniwetok Island
His first trip across the Pacific carried nearly 2,000 troops (13:31)
o The ship was not outfitted for that kind of trip
o There was a lot of rough weather on this trip
o He was called out on deck to look for other ships
o Many of the men got sick on board (14:29)
o The transported troops got very sick as well
The first 2,500 miles going to Hawaii was very rough weather
He made nearly 14 trips across the Pacific Ocean (16:14)
At one point he was on an Attack Transport Ship Amphibious Assault (16:35)
o There were many mining craft, 32 landing craft, etc. (16:46)
o His ship was named after Charles Carroll
o There were typically 600 sailors attached to this kind of ship
Some of his landfalls were on Hawaii, Marshall Islands, and Eniwetok Island
o After Eniwetok, they returned to the United States where they picked up
2,000 troops and headed to Ulithi Island (18:54)
o In Ulithi, they dispersed troops
After Ulithi, they returned to San Francisco, California where they picked up
more troops before heading to the Philippine Islands (19:25)
o They landed in Mindanao, Philippines (19:39)
After dropping off troops in Mindanao, they returned and picked up more troops
from the United States
o Coming back from the United States, they went into Leyte, Philippines
where they dispersed troops before returning home again (19:48)
Once he had picked up more troops in the United States, he went into Samar,
Philippines
His ship then traveled to the island of Mindoro and Luzon (20:20)
o They then traveled to the capital of the Philippines, Manila
It was supposed to be the most bombed city in the world
o From Manila, they traveled to Corregidor Island (20:53)
It was the last island to surrender and where MacArthur departed
from
They heard about the atomic bomb when they were in the Philippines, but they
did not believe it (22:15)
o They heard about it through newspaper articles
o They were told that the bomb could possibly end the war
o However, they were preparing themselves to invade Japan (23:19)
They expected 1 million casualties during an invasion of Japan
�•
•
•
•
•
•
Once the war was over, he traveled to Nagoya, Japan (24:09)
o When they landed, they threw some bread into the water for the birds, but
local people began jumping in the water to get it because food was so
scarce
After spending time in Japan, he then traveled to the United States before
returning to Tientsin (Tianjin), China (25:52)
o After leaving Tientsin, he traveled to Qingdao, China before returning
once again to the United States
On the trip back to the United States, they transported some troops
to Guam (26:07)
He then went back to Sasebo, Japan where they dropped more troops off (26:50)
o Sasebo was a ship building area
o They left Sasebo for the United States to pick up more troops
On the trip back from the United States, they dropped the troops in the Philippines
While on this trip, he went to Shanghai, China where they traveled to the Yangtze
River (28:21)
After leaving China, his ship sailed for Manus (28:52)
Active Duty – Part II – Other Memories of the War – (28:59)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
There were soldier initiations in islands that were south of the equator
o If you had never crossed the boundary, you would have to be initiated
His ship had been through six invasions before he had been on it (31:06)
o It started in Africa and went to Salerno, Italy, Southern France,
Normandy, Omaha Beach, and Okinawa
While on the USS Charles Carroll he had shifts of guard duty – 4 hours of watch
(34:22)
o They were watching for submarines, airplanes, and other ships
There was an instance that they believed a submarine was nearby
One time they had a stand-by for an air raid
They were always in a zigzag maneuver (36:33)
He believes that he was near the sinking of the USS Indianapolis (36:51)
o It was destroyed by a torpedo (38:28)
There was a great deal of controversy around its sinking because
he was not zigzagging
• The Captain felt so terrible about what happened that he
had committed suicide (39:29)
o The ship was missing for five days before anyone knew it was missing
o The zigzag maneuver was to avoid torpedoes from submarines (40:53)
By the time the submarine could get a location on the ship, it
would have changed before they could get hit
He was never very worried about his ship being torpedoed (41:35)
While on the ship, he was able to stay in touch with his family through mail
The food on the ship was not very good (42:47)
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
o The ship was not built for troops which made the kitchen facilities hard to
operate in
When transporting troops, the transported would be on the 3rd deck
o It was extremely hot on the 3rd deck (45:23)
o They had racks of beds that were stacked seven high – they were only 18
inches apart
His bed was only in a rack of five high
o He always liked the top (46:05)
There were generally 10 men sleeping in a 10x10 area
There was a lot of pressure on him as a transporter (47:19)
They were allowed to have soft water or salt water for showers
When he was in the Philippines, he was able to go ashore sometimes (48:33)
He believes that Manila was the most impressive city that he went to because it
was so bombed out
o He was very impressed with China as well (49:12)
He was in the Philippine Islands when he heard that the war was over – they were
picking up troops (50:17)
o The soldiers had been there for three years
They were extremely silent – there was not very much celebration
o When they dropped the soldiers off, they were all very happy when they
saw the Golden Gate Bridge (51:41)
Soldiers did not know where they were going during the war (54:15)
o They never really guessed – they put it out of their mind and kept busy
(55:09)
His last time on the ship was an extraordinary feeling
o He was wondering what was going to happen with the ship and where it
was going (55:45)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WilliamsC1320V
Title
A name given to the resource
Williams, Colin (Interview outline and video), 2005
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Williams, Colin
Description
An account of the resource
Colin Williams was born June 9, 1927 and decided to enlist into the Navy due to the expectation that men his age served their country and because his brothers had also served. He was sent to Great Lakes, Illinois for boot camp where he learned a good deal of discipline. After boot camp, he was sent west to get aboard the USS Charles Carroll where he then made fourteen voyages across the Pacific Ocean. Colin traveled to Hawaii, Marshall Islands, Eniwetok Island, Ulithi Island, Philippines, Japan, China, Guam, and Manus during his time in the service.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Weber, Mark (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2005-04-11
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b59fcb6a4943a971d35bcb530b6fa5cb.mp4
6200240748770ef8d622d42df91fdef6
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be48a1c44270e9dad322de80fb89d599.pdf
9f3a343ddd27dd9d68d65c09f483f05d
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
JEFFREY WILCOX
Born: Nyack, New York
Resides: Saugatuck, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 1, 2013
Interviewer: Mr. Wilcox, can you start by giving us a little bit of background about
yourself, where and when were you born?
I was born August the 23rd 1946 in Nyack, New York.
Interviewer: What did your family do?
My father was into heavy industry and in those days you were moved at will, and we
rather quickly ended up in Gary, Indiana with the U.S. Steel Company.
Interviewer: How old were you when you moved out there?
I turned seven that summer, so I went from there through high school in Gary.
Interviewer: Did you go to public school, or Catholic?
Public schools
Interviewer: What were public schools in Gary, Indiana like in the 1950’s?
Ozzie and Harriett or Leave it to Beaver would be the way to categorize the city at the
time. Prosperity was high, the mills were producing more than any place on the planet,
my wife says, “We don‟t trust air we can‟t see”, and you could see the air real clearly in
those years. 1:09 It was an interesting place to grow up.
Interviewer: I remember being a kid and driving past Gary coming out of Chicago,
and at seven years old asking my mother, “Mom, where’s Gary?” She said, “See
that big black cloud over there? That’s Gary”.
1
�A red cloud usually
Interviewer: At that distance, at the time, you remember that, but on the whole that
would be a period when wages were good, so you have a pretty good middle class
existence even at the worker level. Was your father in management?
Yes, sort of mid to low level management and he was a superintendent in yard and
transportation, moving stuff in and out of the mills. Everybody either worked in the mill
or prospered from the people who worked in the mill, so it was the life blood. Our school
was a WPA project and it was really rather gorgeous, I now know. 2:01 It had these
extraordinary murals in it of American industry, which have now, I understand, been
obliterated by subsequent remodeling of the school. We were “baby boomers”, there was
an elementary school built for us, so we were the first kids into an elementary school.
Gary, actually, has a history of innovation in education and I now know that in the midfifties for a woman to get a hold of a school, as the principal and go through the school
system and pick the teachers that she wanted made for a—it was really a very exciting
environment in elementary school. We loved it.
Interviewer: Then the—let’s see, when did you finish high school?
1964, June of 1964
Interviewer: Now, you went straight into West Point.
July 1
Interviewer: Tell me, what made you decide to go there in the first place?
That‟s a good question. I always was attracted to the rigor, the notion of the rigor. 3:07
I always—growing up in the wake of WWII saw military service as the just and right
thing and it just had a hold on me from about the sixth grade, and I started working on it.
2
�Back then, the only was a sort of political process. You had to see how many letters you
could stack up on the congressman‟s desk and I didn‟t have a lot of connections, so
basically it was trying to meet people, go on a sales call, and ask them to write a letter on
your behalf. I ended up lined up in third place for a spot. The number two guy didn‟t do
quite well enough on the College Board, so I was moved to second. The number one guy
was—he was really a talented, rounded guy, and I was told, when I got my letter two
weeks before I was to report, that something had been determined about an injury to his
elbow. 4:10 I later learned I had a much worse injury to my knee than had ever
happened to his elbow, so I have this distinction of lying my way into the army in the
1960‟s.
Interviewer: There were not that many of you doing that at that point.
So, who knew, but the deal was—my brother had to drop out of college because of
money and he was working at the local windshield wiper factory, and he was a good kid.
They said that when I graduated from high school I could have his job, so he could go
back to college. So, I was going to be a life guard that summer and he was going to go
back to college and I was going to go into the windshield wiper factory and I was saved,
just totally saved.
Interviewer: Now, did you actually have to have a letter from a congressman,
ultimately, was that still part of the process? 5:05
You had to be appointed, and I received a telegram saying that I was the second alternate
to a position, and then I gave up.
Interviewer: Who did you have support from? What kind of people did you go visit
to do this?
3
�My neighbor was the private secretary to the mayor. I called on people who were in
business who were graduates and I don‟t recall how I learned who they were, and then
my high school coaches and my minister and people like that wrote things on my behalf.
To some extent it was, “how high is your stack” and to some extent it was who wrote it,
so I did well enough to get on the list anyway.
Interviewer: so, when do you actually arrive in West Point?
July 1, 1964
Interviewer: What was your first impression of the place when you got there? 6:01
It pretty well comported with my image, and we were all, of course,--you take
accomplished kids and it‟s all about, in minutes, convincing them that they have no right
to be there and that they are the worst person in the world, and whatever made me think I
had the ability to do this, and sort of even people out and rebuild them the way the
institution wants.
Interviewer: How do they go about doing that, a lot of sergeants yelling at you?
Yeah, the people who are conducting this are the third and fourth year guys, so it starts
very rudely with, at least in that era, with reporting to a guy in a red sash who‟s standing
out in the middle of this open space and you walk over to him and kind of want to say,
“Hi”, and he starts disciplining you right there. 7:05 He said, “Drop that bag”, so I put
the bag down and he said, “I didn‟t tell you to put it down, I told you to drop the bag, so
pick it up”, so you pick it up, and pick it up, and start right then with not questioning, just
doing exactly what I tell you. I broke a bottle of cologne in my bag doing that. Later,
when I was one of those guys, I remember peeking out of a window just as the first of
4
�them were starting to come in that I, actually, welled up, I felt so badly for these guys, but
we delivered anyway.
Interviewer: What did the first year curriculum consist of? What were you doing
or how were you spending your time?
Well, we carried an academic load of around twenty to twenty-two hours in today‟s
standard, and then there was reveille, marching to breakfast, going to class, marching to
lunch, going to class, parades, and intermurals are a big part of West Point. 8:09
Everyone‟s is always involved with sports in a wide range of them, not just football,
basketball and baseball, but squash and thing like that to teach you these games. PE in
the first year was a major challenge. There was wrestling, boxing, survival swimming
and gymnastics, and it was all rigorous stuff.
Interviewer: How did you hold up through all that?
I made it, and I had been trained as a life guard in high school, so I had a little bit of a leg
up on the survival swimming thing, although mostly you‟re in a pool with boots and
clothes on and it‟s just exhausting. So, then there‟s staying awake at night enough at
night to study and the class rigor was rigorous, you know, every day, in mathematics
especially, every day you recite at a blackboard, or standing in front of the instructor.
9:10 It was daunting, but it gets you to think on your feet, and speak on your feet, and
that‟s really what the training was about, and in my day, the curriculum was general
engineering, basically, applied mathematics.
Interviewer: Were the instructors’ military, civilian, or both?
Military, I never had a civilian instructor, but there are some now, I think.
mostly grads who were back after graduate school.
5
They were
�Interviewer: Now, during the course of that first year, do you get a chance to go
home or get out of there, or did you have breaks?
Yes, actually, ours was the first class that was permitted to go home at Christmas, and I
really wish we had not, because it was horrible coming back, so that was the one break,
and then in the spring break, where the upper classes take off for, basically, an extra-long
weekend, and the fourth classmen, the first year people are left in charge of the place.
10:13 My girlfriend, now wife, came to visit during that, but generally speaking it‟s a
pretty cloistered existence.
Interviewer: How does the experience change from year to year while you are
there?
Oh dramatically, as soon as that first year is over you‟re a real person and then every
summer, as different training things associated with it, that first summer afterwards, the
whole class is out at a camp on the reservation, for pure military, for sixty days, and each
summer we got thirty days off, we were paid by the way.
Interviewer: What would you do with your time off?
I usually came out here to Michigan to visit my future wife‟s family and sponge off the
family. 11:06
Interviewer: So, you’re there, so how long, total, were you then at West Point?
Four years
Interviewer: 1964 to 1968, now this is, of course, an interesting time in terms of
American history and what’s going on with the military because the Vietnam War
was ramping up significantly. How much attention were you paying to all of that as
you were going through West Point?
6
�It was constant, I mean because we all knew people who were dying and that would be
reported at the evening meal. The instruction began to change to accommodate the kind
of tactics that were being called for, just as it‟s been changed now for Iraq and
Afghanistan, so it was a constant topic.
Interviewer: Did you have people coming back from Vietnam and kind of talking
about what they were experiencing and doing and so forth?
Very much so, the faculty was all guys who had been to Vietnam and were back, so they
had a lot to impart and it was really useful, actually. 12:04
Interviewer: What was the morale of the cadets like as they’re going through this
and the war is escalating?
It was high because we knew we had volunteered for this, and so, you take your lumps. I
don‟t remember if it was 1966 or 1967 when General Westmoreland came back to
address congress, basically, attempting to get more troops assigned, and since he had
come all that way, he came up for dinner one night, because he‟s a grad, and he addressed
us all. The way he put it was, “Don‟t worry men, if they call it off now, it will take long
enough to wind down, that you‟ll all still go”, so what we had in Vietnam, in my opinion,
was a great live fire exercise in which people could prove their mettle and build their
resumes and make their careers and that‟s the way a lot of people looked at it. 13:09
This is my chance to do what I‟ve trained for.
Interviewer: Was the general message coming out, one that we were winning, that
we were doing it right? What was presented to the public and the congress for quite
some time was that everything was a great success, at least up until Tet. That was
7
�the public impression that you were getting from the veterans and from what you
knew within West Point?
You know, I don‟t remember there being any drum beating. Most of the time you would
be talking to a young Captain, and then you‟re talking about the sort of nitty gritty
aspects of tactics and that sort of thing, so we didn‟t have a lot of conversation about the
global purpose and so forth. 14:01
Interviewer: Right
That had to sort of dawn on me along the way.
Interviewer: So, at that point you’re focusing much more on just the physical,
practical and immediate problems with what you going to do when you’re out there
in the field in this situation you’re at, and small unit tactics and leadership and that
kind of thing.
Now, there was a great sentiment among us for people who were our age, college age,
who were protesting the war. We understood what they were saying and no one held
them in any disregard, which was interesting. We actually practiced, our color guards
practiced, defending the flag with these ceremonial bayonets in the event there should be
some disruption of sorts, but none of us felt any animosity toward these people, and I
don‟t recall anyone speaking in those terms, we‟re just in a different pack. 15:04
Interviewer: What sort of contact did you have with people, maybe, who were
protesting or things like that?
Personally not that much, although back then Armed Forces Day was a big deal in New
York and there was a huge parade down 5th Avenue, and in the order of march, the cadets
at West Point go first in any military parade, and it just so happened my third year, my
8
�junior year, I was in the front rank of the front unit, there were just a few people out
ahead of us, and we were coming right along Central Park down 5th Avenue and a bunch
of students, or young people, rushed out and plopped down in the middle of 5th Avenue
with flowers in their arms and we went into marking time. It took about that long (snap
of the fingers) for the New York City police to grab them by the arms and haul them off
the street. 16:02 Then we proceeded, and here we were marching across all these
flowers that these kids had dropped and we felt badly about it, because you can talk out
of the side of your mouth or talk without turning your head and there was a lot of
conversation about it, and we felt badly. It was on the front page of the New York
Times.
Interviewer: Did you have occasions to be kind of in New York on your own while
you were a cadet in the middle of all of this?
Yeah, there was the occasion where we had a thing called “the fine arts forum” and we
called it “the culture club” because it was a way to get out for the weekend so, we had to
go the Huntington Hartford Gallery, and we had to go to the ballet. You learned to like
ballet in the process, but at the time it was just a device. So, we went in the Huntington
Hartford Gallery, which is at the south west corner of Central Park, and we went up and
down in there real fast and out the door, I did it. 17:02 When we came out the door was
the gathering for the great “hippie” rally in Central Park, and these young people
streaming into the park all being really pleasant with us, and if I‟d of had my wits about
me I would have gone and witnessed it, but I was more interested in getting back to the
hotel and changing out of my uniform.
Interviewer: Right
9
�We went off, so I came that close to a historic event.
Interviewer: When was in terms of the war?
That would have been in 1966
Interviewer: Okay, was that the start of your junior year?
Spring of 1966
Interviewer: It might have been 1967
It might have been 1967
Interviewer: It depends if it was actually fall or spring I guess.
I think it was spring
Interviewer: Probably early 1967. So, at that stage then there was not necessarily
animosity, or hostility, directed toward men in uniform, because part of the postVietnam story later stuff is, people didn’t want to be seen in their uniforms. 18:00
People would say bad thing and so forth, but if you go back there, at least early
1967, even in New York, which is a place where you might expect people to do all
sorts of stuff, it wasn’t really working that way, at least not for you.
No, it never worked that way for me. I later discovered there were some people who
were uneasy about me in the business setting, but nobody ever said anything to me. I was
actually hired at IBM because I was a veteran, because the people at IBM that do the
hiring, are the managers for whom you‟re going to work, and the guy who hired me was a
veteran and he liked it, so I actually benefited from it in that respect.
Interviewer: All right, when did you then graduate from West Point?
June of 1968
Interviewer: So, the Tet Offensive---
10
�The day Bobby Kennedy was shot
Interviewer: Okay, and so what was going through your head at about that point in
time? 19:01 You’re finishing up and all this stuff is going on.
I was getting married too and it was very interesting. In January of 1968 our branches
were already determined. I was going to be in the infantry and I‟m still not sure how it
works now, but back then you would, by branch, be herded into a room and there would
be a map of the world there with assignments, so that you could pick your first
assignment. The guys who weren‟t getting married were all picking the glamour units in
Vietnam and I‟m sitting there listening to General Westmoreland tell me, “Don‟t worry,
I‟m going to go”. I was looking at the map and there were three assignments in Berlin, so
it came my name and I said, “I‟ll go to Berlin”, and so, for the first year of being married- and then there was a lot of training after graduation, and Ranger School, Airborne
School, those tickets being punched. 20:05 We got to Berlin in January of 1969 and
this is probably more detail than you want, but tours in Germany were three year tours.
They were still called three year tours, if you were cut short of a tour by less than a year
the army owed you money for the relocation of family, so I stayed 365 days in Germany.
I got my orders at ten months to leave on the 365th day, so they didn‟t have to pay any
money, but, Berlin was a fascinating experience.
Interviewer: Let’s backtrack a little bit. You’re talking about going through
training schools and so forth. They put you—basically you were at that point not
assigned to a unit yet when you graduated from West Point?
I was headed for a unit, but went into a training phase. 21:02
11
�Interviewer: Was it just for that unit and it’s type of work there or for different
things?
No, it was officer basic training, there was a great—the army is smart enough to not give
West Point people any real advantage. Our four years at West Point we carried active
duty ID‟s, but the time didn‟t count, and we went through the same track that everybody
did, so we went to an officer basic course at Fort Benning, which led into Ranger School,
which then Airborne School and then off to wherever you were going to go, so that was
very general training.
Interviewer: What kind of interaction relationship was there between the officer
candidates who were coming from other programs, or whatever, and the ones
coming out of West Point? Did you all just mix together?
Yeah, people from the Citadel, VMI, and ROTC programs, we were all mixed together
and everybody got along great. No one ever, I never saw any friction in that regard.
22:06
Interviewer: The West Point people were not holding themselves up as higher, they
weren’t being viewed as being a bunch of snobs by the other ones?
No, not that I ever experienced
Interviewer: How much integration was there in the officer corps at this point?
Not much, are talking about racial integration?
Interviewer: Yeah
Not much, we had several African Americans in my class, several Asian Americans, and
then the military academy has always drawn from protectorates and foreign countries, so
there was a fellow in my company the year behind me who was Costa Rican, for
12
�example, so there was that degree of integration. The integration that you mostly felt was
being with people from all fifty states and all the protectorates that was fascinating.
23:01 But no, the army was not—it was headed that way, but it wasn‟t there yet.
Interviewer: So, you work your way through all of this, did your wife go down to
Georgia with you?
Yeah
Interviewer: Did you live on base or off?
Off
Interviewer: What was that experience like? You’ve been living in Indiana,
Michigan, New York, those kinds of places, how much of a culture shock was there
to go down there to Fort Benning?
In most respects not much, but it‟s interesting that you brought up the racial question
because we were downtown in Columbus Georgia one Sunday morning, we‟d gone to
some breakfast place, and we walked out on the sidewalk and an old black man wearing
bib overalls leaped off of the sidewalk to get out of the way of my wife, who was shaken
by it, and still I am. We both went running over and dragged him back up onto the
sidewalk. 24:06 I mean, we grew up in a town that was sixty-five percent black and we
were not accustomed to being around black people, but we were sure unaccustomed to
that kind of behavior and that was shocking. Otherwise, it was mostly hanging out with
the other young marrieds and going to work.
Interviewer: Okay, so you work your way through that phase and then you go over,
you go to Berlin. Now, what unit were you assigned to there, when you went to
Berlin?
13
�The 18th Infantry, it was an infantry brigade in Berlin, an artillery company and then there
was us, the French, and the Brits, and if you looked at the—we actually had the arrogance
to suggest that this force was holding back the five Russian divisions that were around
the city. I mean, they would have hung a “prisoner of war” sign on the wire and that
would have been it. 25:02 If you looked at the perimeter of Berlin, down the center,
east and west, and then the sector border between West Berlin and East Germany, the
defensive plan, we took up, the French, Brits, and Americans, took up about a third of it
and the Berlin police force took up the rest, they were trained militarily, they were
something else, those guys. I did have the experience of patrolling the wall and the sector
border, and because we had the rite to cross the wall, the military did, we were
encouraged to do it so as to not lose the rite. At that time you exchanged one American
dollar for four western marks, you exchanged one western mark for four east marks, so
when you went across it was at sixteen to one on the dollar. 26:03 the lowliest private
could go to the best restaurant in East Berlin and you couldn‟t help being an ugly
American throwing money around, so there we were in our 1968 Pontiac working our
way through “Checkpoint Charlie” to get over to—my wife and I, you had to go in
uniform and then cruising around in East Berlin, which was a somber and sobering
experience because West Berlin was vibrant and multi-cultural and just a high energy
place, and East Berlin was gray and very somber. Kids would speak to you out of the
corner of their mouths and that kind of thing.
Interviewer: I’m not sure that people even knew that sort of thing went on, that
American soldiers were going over into East Berlin. The assumption is there’s just
this very—now did Soviet soldiers come over into West Berlin then?
14
�No, they didn‟t so much-- they did, but not in any numbers. 27:05 One thing that we
did do, the American, French, Brits and the Russians guarded Spandau Prison and
Rudolph Hess was still alive at the time. He was the only prisoner, and the game was
for—to report one another for infractions and not handling the guard duty properly. Hess
himself enjoyed drawing people into that; you weren‟t supposed to speak to him. One
time I was the officer of the guard there and I called up to one of the towers and said,
“Tell me when he‟s out taking his constitutional because I want to go and look at this
guy”, and so, he was walking ahead of me, going in the same direction, and I was
walking to overtake him, ostensibly checking the guards, and as I reached him, to
overtake him, he whirled around and looked me right in the eye. 28:08 I was this close
to saying, “Excuse me”, for which I would have been reported to the Russians, so that
kind of thing was rather fascinating. A strange guy, Hess, and the whole prison was a
kind of medieval sort of structure.
Interviewer: How did he conduct himself, as far as you can tell? Was he passive?
A very passive guy, he gardened and he walked and I don‟t know what he did, I never got
in actually to the cell, just the shell of the place.
Interviewer: Strange business—now while you’re in Berlin, were the people in
Germany paying attention to things like Vietnam and that sort of stuff, were they
aware that was going on?
I don‟t know—I mean, I was fairly oblivious, and I was more interested in my own
experience. 29:03 The people in Berlin all spoke English. You would try to speak
German and they were appreciative of it, but they‟d lapse right into colloquial English, so
I never engaged much in any of that kind of conversation with them. Another interesting
15
�thing about Berlin—our little measly battalion was headquartered in what had been the
headquarters of communications for the Third Reich and there were no infantry Captains
in Germany, so these young Lieutenants, we all took company commands. I had an
office, possibly, half the size of this room with a ceiling about this high that was totally
wood paneled and our brigade headquarters had been the headquarters of the Luftwaffe
and it was like a movie going in that place. This rising cobblestone drive up to the big
circular thing and you walk into this enormous rotunda, and it was an infantry brigade.
30:11 It was pretty amazing.
Interviewer: You talked about your interactions with the German people and so
forth. Were they interested in any kinds of things American and that sort of stuff?
Oh yes, very much—I mean you could buy American culture on the streets and that‟s
where I bought the “Hair” album, and that‟s where I saw “Hair‟, in Berlin, auf deutsch,
and Donna Summer was in it. And yeah, it was a very cosmopolitan town. It felt like a
prison after a while though, you were very aware.
Interviewer: You couldn’t go anywhere really.
You could, but it was a process. The army actually had a train that went down to West
Germany and it was like the Orient Express. 31:06 Mahogany paneled, these heavy
sheets and these sleeping compartments, and at each stop along the way the Russians
would come barging onto the train and look at your ID and my wife‟s passport and that
kind of thing. It was all show, but it was exciting.
Interviewer: How much of a cold war atmosphere was there? Was anybody
thinking that a war could actually break out?
16
�Yeah, Czechoslovakia, for example, there was—the Russians were holding
Czechoslovakia while I was there and we were alerted for that, but we wouldn‟t have
been involved, it would have been units from the states, but there was a high sense of
jeopardy. Of course, we‟re people who came out of high school in a highly industrial
area, where the day of the missile, that crucial day of the missile faceoff, we all expected
to be obliterated. 32:06
There was no sound in an otherwise adolescent cacophony. It
was dead silent in the halls of our high school , so cold war was part of all of our
mentality , and it was part of our instruction at West Point because that was still—the
holding back the Russians was still part of the mentality.
Interviewer: You get to the end of the year there in Berlin and now you’re heading
back to the states?
On my way to Vietnam, yeah
Interviewer: And you had orders for Vietnam already. You knew where you were
going?
I knew I was going there, I didn‟t know what unit.
Interviewer: Describe the process then of going over, going from Berlin to Vietnam.
What stages are there, there?
Just the trip, getting my wife resituated so she could wait out the period of time and that
took us a couple of weeks, and then I was gone. 33:07 She said to me when she took
me, this was now 1970, took me to the plane, she said, “You don‟t have to do this, we
could go to Canada”, because she had been awakening during this period of time. When
I came back—well, to step back—the high ranking, academically high ranking, members
of each class at West Point are given the choice, or were, to go directly to graduate school
17
�and then go into the active army while owing two years for one of graduate school.
When I was on my way back I saw one of my classmates on the evening news, he was at
Harvard, and he was announcing, “I‟m not doing this, I‟m not going to go and participate
in that war, I want out”. 34:03 He was allowed out and that impressed my wife. I still
had this idea. “Look, I asked for this, it saved me from oblivion, I owe this time and I
have to go where they send me”.
Interviewer: She’s thinking about the possibility that you’ll be coming home in a
bag.
Right, and so I went
Interviewer: Where did you leave from? Where did you settle her?
We settled her back home in Gary, and she was teaching at our old high school. I can‟t
remember the name of the air force base in northern California, but I went out through
San Francisco back out into the valley and there was an air force base there and we took
off from there to Alaska.
Interviewer: So, you were in a military jet then and not a civilian?
No, it was a modified commercial, full of nothing but troops. 35:04 It was a stretch
eight and they put extra seats in it, and I was in the back seat, with this thing bobbing all
over the place on the way over there. On the last two hours on our way into Vietnam,
some guy locked himself in the bathroom right behind me and no one could get him to
come out, so the first thing, when we landed, up come some MP‟s pounding on the door,
forced the door open and took this guy out in handcuffs, so that was my first experience.
My next experience was stepping out the door and being hit with this heat and humidity.
My knees almost buckled, of course I had been seeing just how much beer I could drink
18
�in Germany and how much food I could eat, so I was overweight and I lost about thirty
pounds in two weeks. 36:03
Interviewer: Now, where did they land you in Vietnam?
At Tan Son Nhut, Saigon, and then put us on a bus and took us to a place to sleep. Then
officers were allowed to say what unit they wanted to go to, so I thought, “Gee I‟d like to
go to the 1st Cavalry Division, I really like that patch”, and my second choice was the
101st Airborne, my third choice was “The Big Red One”, and I got the 101st.
Interviewer: How soon did you get sent up there?
The next day, and the transport then was a C-130 with cargo pallets, with straps on the
cargo pallets, and you sat cross legged and held on to the strap and that was the comfort
of military travel.
Interviewer: When you were first there in the Saigon area, and so forth, what
indications did you have that there was a war going on? 37:01
Very little, by that time Tan Son Nhut was very domesticated. My great regret is that I
never got into the city of Saigon; I never really had much to do with the people. I think
it‟s odd that I went over there with sort of a sense of alienation from things Asian, and I
came back with this abiding regard for things Asian, without ever really interacting with
people that much, but they were gorgeous people, and I thought resourceful and strong
people.
Interviewer: Where was the 101st based at that time?
In the far northern most region, the city of Hue, just outside Hue was the division
basecamp, my brigade was farther north, just south of the demilitarized zone, and our
area of operation, fortunately, depending on how you look at it, was a national forest
19
�preserve, so there never had been people living there. 38:11 So, we didn‟t have this
difficulty distinguishing civilians from combatants, so from our perspective, if it moved
you would shoot it, and we never had to confront that notion of—my brother, in the navy,
did, he was a swift boat skipper and he some real difficult calls to make trying to
determine if they were shooting civilians.
Interviewer: What was your first assignment once you got up there?
I was a platoon leader of the Alpha Company of the 2/506 Infantry. We had just begun a
campaign that was involved in establishing a firebase, a fire support base called Ripcord.
39:03 It was picked because it was in proximity to the main supply route that brought
things down from North Vietnam, down in Laos and then into South Vietnam. Our
purpose was to disrupt this supply line.
Interviewer: So you have what’s a potential check point on the Ho Chi Minh Trail I
guess is the way to look at it.
Yes, it worked that way. It was interesting that this was during the period of
Vietnamization, which was a term the Nixon Administration coined, which was, “Get the
Vietnamese to handle while we‟re in the background”, which was not the case where we
were. What was the case though, was that we weren‟t going to be reinforced because that
would have put more Americans into this fray. In fire support bases the principle was,
artillery units are on top of these hilltops, secured by infantry, and infantry units operate
within range, fire support range, of this artillery. 40:11 So, we were out moving around,
off in platoon size units, and in Vietnam the target was the enemy, not terrain, which is
why so often you saw things like “Hamburger Hill”, which was the year prior right in that
same area, where at great expense you take a hill and you walk away from it because the
20
�idea was to fix and kill the enemy, so that‟s what we were attempting to do. What we
now know , my commanding officer at that time had gone back and really researched all
this, he‟s met with commanders from the other side, is that there were parts of three
divisions of the North Vietnamese Army. 41:00
They were regular soldiers whose task
it was to get us out of there. So, from the period March to July of 1970, was that set
piece battle, almost. It did culminate with a massive assault on the firebase that drove us
out of the area. In fact, on that day the firebase was just overrun and as it was overrun it
started to be air struck because the artillery tubes had to be left, a lot of ammunition had
to be left, and it was just a, “get the humans out of there” evacuation. So we just struck
it, and struck it, and struck it for days, and guys I know have been back. Shortly
thereafter, one of the senior officers was on leave in Hong Kong, R&R, and actually saw
a display with photos, from Ripcord, declaring this victory of the people‟s army. 42:14
It was true.
Interviewer: What sort of a reception did you get when you arrived? You’re flying
over there in a C-130, they land you at Hoe, do you go out on the ground, do you go
out to the base by helicopter--how did you get out to the position?
I was trucked up to the basecamp for our brigade and then helicoptered out. I went out
actually, with our new battalion chaplain; he was going out to visit my unit.
Interviewer: Now, was the post you were at, was that a battalion size post or
brigade post, or what was it?
Brigade, Camp Evans
Interviewer: So, that’s what you were physically defending?
21
�No, that was—that was a base camp, in the lowlands, out near the coast. 43:02
Vietnam starts at this gorgeous, gorgeous coast, works its way through very fertile land,
at least in our part of the country, and then goes immediately into very rugged mountains
all the way through Laos, so our area was out in those mountains. The lowlands were
well controlled by ourselves and the South Vietnamese Army. It was the highlands that
were in contention, so I was helicoptered out to my unit.
Interviewer: The Ripcord camp itself, I guess that’s what I was saying, that base
was that a battalion base or brigade base or what was it?
That was a battalion headquarters, it had one company of infantry, two artillery batteries,
105‟s and 155‟s, and a 4.2 mm mortar platoon, and had these quad fifties that were an
invention in Vietnam, which was four, 50 Caliber barrels on one device that would fire
simultaneously. 44:02
Interviewer: Of course, they had a version of that as far back as WWII.
Yeah
Interviewer: It was initially designed for anti-aircraft, but they could use them also
as fire support for the ground troops.
Right
Interviewer: That’s not a whole lot of infantry to defend a position with.
A company could do it.
Interviewer: How many men in a company when it’s—
Full strength?
Interviewer: Or at least as full strength as you normally had?
22
�Well, a full strength company would have been a hundred and forty four. Most of our
companies were a lot less than that, about half. At one point my company, later when I
was a company commander, got down to seventeen and they sent us thirty-four
replacements in one day, all at once, on Ripcord, and they said, “Get out of here”, and all
we could do was say, “Okay, new guy, old guy, new guy, old guy”, so we put it-- and just
got off the firebase. 45:00
Interviewer: Now, what was your first impression when you got to the firebase,
when you arrived there?
Actually, I went straight out to the field to my unit, so it was some time later, we were
actually on a hilltop across from Ripcord, that I first beheld it and it‟s an interesting thing
because it looks like an industrialized hilltop in the middle of the forest, because the first
thing you do is denude it of trees, and then all kinds of wire and obstacles around it, gun
emplacements for the infantry and then the artillery tubes sticking up on top. It was
prehistoric looking, almost, out in the midst of that forest.
Interviewer: Where was your platoon when you joined it then?
On some hill 46:00
Interviewer: So, they just helicoptered you out there?
To a LZ, a landing zone
Interviewer: Why did you have that particular assignment?
I don‟t know that was luck of the draw by the time I got to the battalion and the prior
platoon leader had been killed on the initial assault on firebase Ripcord. That company
was the initial assault and they got blown back. It was secured later by a different
company, so I replaced the young guy who was killed.
23
�Interviewer: What impression did you have of the men in the platoon you joined?
I loved these guys. One of the things I really loved, I was never in the all-volunteer
army, I‟m sure these are great soldiers, and I loved draftees. They would speak up, they
would object, they would question, and I would answer them and I always thought that
was kind of healthy. 47:06 One of the things I learned at West Point was, that when the
Hessians were supporting us, I mean when the Prussians, supporting us in the revolution,
one of the things that most infuriated them was that American soldiers always wanted to
know why we were doing what we were about to do, which is something they were
totally unaccustomed to and there later testimony was, they felt that was the strength of
the Continental Army, and I agree. I just enjoyed their company.
Interviewer: What approach did you take? You’re a new platoon commander, you
have no combat experience, you’re joining a unit of men who’ve been in the field for
a while, and how did you deal with them, or try to win them over? What did you do
when you got there?
To their great credit, they weren‟t out to test anybody; they were out to support me
because we were all in this mess together. 48:00
There was a young sergeant E5, who
was the platoon sergeant, who was extremely supportive and helpful, and because of him
we managed.
Interviewer: And you had the good sense to listen to him.
You bet, and my company commander coached me and I‟d been training for six years for
this job, so I knew a lot about how to conduct myself and I knew that being respectful of
them was the way to be.
24
�Interviewer: Because one of the sorts of stereotypes of the whole Vietnam situation
is that you get these newly minted officers, Lieutenants, coming in and because
they’re Lieutenants and they’re in charge, they just go and do things their way.
How common do you think that actually was?
Not terribly, I think once you get out there you realize the geo-politics has nothing to do
with what were up to here. My aim was for them to survive. 49:03 I felt sorry for them.
I volunteered for this and they got stuck in it, and I wanted to do the best I could to make
sure they could make it home. Now, you can‟t be reluctant, because that could make
matters worse, but you can also avoid trouble where you can. Now our method when
moving around--dawn would arrive, we‟d have a mission to get from here over to there
and see what you can find. So, we‟d wake up in the morning and cook up some instant
coffee and just start firing artillery where we were going to go and airstrikes, I mean, we
spent huge amounts of money for an afternoon walk to get from here to there. So, that‟s
a way that you can see to protect these guys, clear the enemy out before you head into
where they are. 50:02
Interviewer: Did you have occasions to go into places that weren’t so clear, kind of
into jungle proper and that kind of thing?
Oh, very much
Interviewer: How did you operate when you were doing that? How did you deal
with the men?
How did we deploy them?
Interviewer: Yeah
25
�In a platoon size unit you‟d have a point element, a point man, and a slack man, just back
from the point man, and then there was a choice about the next few people, typically the
platoon leader would be no farther back than the fifth guy and then you‟ve got your radio
operator who, when there is line of sight, is a pretty clear indicator of who the Lieutenant
is. We wore no rank in the field, but you could figure it out if you could observe the unit
and I think that why, in all wars, this one included, there was high mortality. The fellow
that replaced me was killed and then when I was promoted to Captain, I replaced a guy
who was killed and the fellow that replaced me survived. 51:05 So, there was high
mortality in the junior officer ranks.
Interviewer: Do you think it helped you to have been in Germany for a year first?
So you were in a position where you were commanding, you were used to working
with enlisted men and dealing with them acting like Americans, so you had
experience on a practical level that was working with these guys and getting along
with them and still expecting to do that and then that works that way for you
Interviewer: Yes, I‟m sure it helped. Berlin was very interesting because they
handpicked the enlisted men, and because what we could not have was some international
incident with Russians, so there tended to be a lot of—I had a college graduate driving
my Jeep, you know, a lot of really interesting, broadly experienced, young soldiers and
plenty who were returning from Vietnam.
Interviewer: Describe a little bit how the situation developed there at Ripcord.
52:05 Now when you got there were things relatively quiet at that point?
We were operating in platoon size units and there was regular contact. We did—various
elements would contact the enemy fairly regularly. We would then sometimes group into
26
�a company size unit and most of the time we were just searching through the areas
looking to make contact with the enemy.
Interviewer: What were they doing?
They were moving supplies and harassing us largely. Ambushes, and that sort of thing
and that began to grow over that period of time and they would go from very small units
to fair sized units. Night attacks on firebases. I sat on a hill one night and just watched a
different firebase just light up with a major attack on it, and we were just sitting there, a
beautiful night, starlit, just watching the show. 53:09
Interviewer: Did the artillery at your base support them?
Oh yeah, and the air, we had these C-130‟s that were modified with quad fifties, and
mini-guns that would fire like a hose of machine gun fire, and they would get a wing on a
place like that and they would hose it down, just hose it down. And, of course, the
defensive positions had a thing—have you ever heard the term fougas?
Interviewer: Yes
It was a mix of oil and jet fuel in a barrel with a claymore mine behind it and you
detonate the claymore and it would shoot a flame out into the wire to burn people
attacking. 54:00 So, there would be a lot of explosives going off at a time like that.
This just built and built and built until we were in fairly regular contact, all of us, all the
time.
Interviewer: Were you still able to go off the base and conduct patrols?
Oh yes
Interviewer: So you weren’t being held in the perimeter the whole time?
27
�No, we were always out, building our own perimeters at night, and there were a couple of
events. There was a Hill 805, so called by its elevation. I was there several times and
one night, listening on the radio, while a different company was on this hill and being
attacked and they kept them there and they were attacked again, and they kept them there
and they were attacked again, and then they moved them out, and they moved a different
company up there. They made it okay, and we were assigned to go up and take their
place. 55:08 As we came up on top of this hill, they were going off of the hill, and their
lead element was ambushed. So, the first thing you do in a scenario like that, is you call
for fire support, gunships and artillery, and the best way to do that is to get the long
antenna up on the radio for the best reception. We were busying ourselves and we‟re
looking over here and here comes—it looked like something out of a cartoon, a black
cloud with lightning going out of it like this, otherwise a beautiful day. We were looking
at it and we thought, “That is coming right at us”, and sure enough it did. 56:00 I was
standing with one of the sergeants and the tree about twenty feet away just blew up,
totally consistent with the rocket propelled grenades that the enemy would fire at us, so I
figured that‟s what it was in that instant, but in the next instant I was doubled over at the
waist and the sergeant next to me was sitting on the ground with his legs straight out in
front of him and the guys from Bravo Company, who gathered around the long antenna,
were all just all flat out on the ground. No medevac, because you could not see in that
moment more than twenty feet, and the driving rain and this socked in environment.
Interviewer: Was it a lightning strike in the tree?
Yes, it was a lightning strike. We‟re standing around and the medics are running around
with smelling salts, and basically we just waited and they came to, and they were okay
28
�and they shook it off and walked off the hill. 57:03 That was an interesting experience
and for me, it felt like I‟d been punched in the gut and I doubled over.
Interviewer: Now, when you’re out there on these patrols and you take casualties,
people get hit, or whatever, what was the procedure? How would you deal with
then?
Get to a landing zone and get a medevac, and if you couldn‟t get to a landing zone, you
would drop what was called a jungle penetrator from the medevac, which would hover
and it would come down through the trees and you‟d strap the guy onto this penetrator
and haul him back up. Medevac pilots were unbelievable.
Interviewer: Were their helicopters basically targets for anybody on the ground?
Yeah, and there was constant helicopter traffic, it was constant; you could always hear a
blade somewhere. It was very interesting to do—they would often move us by
helicopter. Our mission would be to get to this landing zone and then you‟re going to be
choppered over there. 58:02 That was part of the principle of the division, was mobility
to keep the enemy guessing, so you‟d get up on these LZ‟s and here come the helicopters,
so you‟d wait to see if this was going to be a contested take off, and organize yourselves,
get on these choppers, you know the young Lieutenant would always be on the first
chopper in to the new location. The platoon sergeant on the last chopper out and then
when you‟re going into these LZ‟s, they‟d always prep them with fire, artillery fire, often
airstrikes and then as you‟re going in aerial gunships right alongside the first chopper,
just firing and firing and just pouring fire into these LZ‟s, and it was exciting. When
you‟d get to the LZ you couldn‟t exactly land because there were tree stumps, and so
we‟d spend a fair amount of time airborne out of the chopper with these sixty-eight
29
�pound packs on our backs. 59:10 I used to say, “By the time we‟re forty, we‟re all
going to have bad backs”, and I had a bad back by the time I was thirty.
Interviewer: Now, was that kind of method for preparing, was that effective? I
mean did you tend to not get much ground fire at least when you first showed up?
Yeah, it was pretty effective and the enemy knew it was going to happen, so why would
they volunteer to stand around for that, but every now and then you would get fire from
another location and it would be hard to identify.
Interviewer: Now, did the North Vietnamese have a lot of artillery and things like
that, or heavier weapons?
Yes, rockets and recoilless rifles, and they were superb soldiers and they had an ample
supply of small arms, the RPD machine gun was a great machine gun and the AK47
automatic weapon. 0:07 They—their hand grenades were not as good as ours. I was
wounded by one of their hand grenades and if it had been one of ours, I‟d have been
killed, and then they started to bring more and more of that—heavy mortars, you could
sense it coming into our area and Ripcord would take fire at all times. They had light
mortars, I was standing on the helipad at Ripcord one night with a couple other young
officers and we heard “poof, poof”, and we looked over and here were these black smoke
things from the ineffectual mortars, and so the way you get at the time—we were just
standing there, “Who cares”, unless it sounds like something heavier.
Interviewer: When they were using heavier weapons, do you have any means of
using counter battery fire? I mean, could you shoot back at them? 1:03
Yeah, you could—you‟re guessing a lot in that kind of terrain, in that kind of forest. We
were certainly better equipped and we had these light observation helicopters, another
30
�bunch of crazy young guys flying these things, crazy. They would go “whoo” right down
into those little valleys and they‟d look—“Oh, over there”, and they‟d fly away and then
they‟d start to direct fire, but there‟s a very mobile enemy, they knew that was our mode
and they‟d pick up and move out after firing a few rounds, usually ass this began to heat
up. There‟s one thing in particular that I want to get on record, and that was, there was a
time when—after I was in Alpha Company as a platoon leader, I was the Charlie
Company commander and we were down to about thirty people, at this point. 2:08 We
were sent on a mission to retrieve what was called a mechanical ambush. This was—
mechanical ambushes would be set out away from a nighttime perimeter with a tripwire
that would fire claymore mines, which fire pellets, ball bearings. Bravo Company had set
one--they had been hustled out of that area before they could dismantle it, so they sent
these guys from Bravo Company to us and we sent a patrol down to retrieve this
ambush—they were ambushed, and we had a guy with three days left in country who was
just blown in half by a RPG in that event. That was a real blow to the morale of our
company because he was a very popular guy and very willing, he could have gotten out
of there. 3:07
When they came back our medic had been wounded with them, our one
medic, so now we have no medic. I reported this fact, so they sent us a new medic. So in
that same afternoon in the passing of resupply and medevac‟ing comes this new medic.
So, he was trotted over to me and I looked at him, and you know, medics weren‟t infantry
men, but they were armed, and this guy had no weapon. I said, “Where‟s your weapon?”
He said, “I don‟t carry one, I‟m a conscientious objector”, and this guy was for real. He
was so innocent and so willing and I thought, “Oh, this—this is wrong” 4:01
Somebody, the system, is doing it to this guy; this guy could have been at Walter Reed
31
�or someplace, he would have been a great guy in a hospital, but no, they had to go and
stick him in an infantry unit, an undermanned infantry unit, in a combat situation. I just
thought it was horrific. Well, the next day our mission was—we were helicoptered right
near Ripcord, there was a hill with an easy line of sight of Ripcord and the enemy was
pouring fire into Ripcord from this hill [Hill 1000]. The day that the medic had shown
up, on that day Delta Company had assaulted that hill, they had left two dead bodies on
the hill, and had been repulsed. So, the idea was, Delta Company would go back up,
retrieve those bodies, there was much done about retrieving bodies, which I never saw.
5:07 I figured if I‟m out there and I‟m twitching, I want everybody to do whatever they
can. If I‟m dead, I don‟t want somebody else to get killed because I got killed, but
there‟s something in the mentality, and I understand the theory, I just don‟t subscribe to
it. Then we were to go around the base of the hill and come up behind this emplacement,
so the two pronged attack. Well, they started prepping that hill first thing in the morning,
everything, and Ripcord, they put the tubes at zero elevation and they were just firing
rounds into it. They air struck it, gassed it, continued with every form of artillery, naval
artillery, and we realized, this is an intense thing, so we left our normally heavy
equipment in a secure spot at the foot of Ripcord and took off with just canteens and
ammunition. 6:10 We worked our way around, got up on top of this hill, Delta
company‟s coming up this way, and we started across, there was a saddle, you know—a
high point here, Ripcord, and a high point here, which is where we gained, and we started
across and just immediately, very, very heavy small arms fire, and we ended up in a
bomb crater. In that first burst, one of the guys was just cut down, dead. This medic just
walked out, he just walked out there. Now, that kid should not have been there. 7:02
32
�Anyone else would have had a greater sense of self-preservation than this young man did.
He walked out there to help the guy and he got killed, “boom”, he lasted twenty four
hours and it was wrong. So, there came a point where one of the other guys—we had
another guy in the company who came this close to being a priest and decided he wasn‟t
going to go all the way. A highly religious fellow, he still is, so as we‟re walking along
the base of this hill, at the top of his voice, he‟s reciting The Lord‟s Prayer, I mean it was
dramatic. Well, we‟re in the bomb crater and he takes his helmet puts it on a stick and
peeks it up over these logs and the machine gun fire is right on it, so we were really
stuck, because we had nothing but open space between us and them, and we were ordered
to do it. 8:00 Actually, I got my sequence incorrect, it was when we were ordered to do
it that we began the assault and it was so intense that‟s when the guy got cut down and
that‟s when the medic walked out, and then we ducked back into this crater thinking
about, “What are we doing here?” Delta Company was making no progress.
Interviewer: Now, you’re in a situation where the Americans have been using fire
power all the time, heavy weapons and so forth, now, you’re actually in a position
where you found someone that’s shooting at you. At this point do you have air or
artillery support?
Well yes, except we were too close and that was one of the real tactical errors of this
whole operation. You got Delta Company right there, and you got us right here, and so,
air support, if it had come over us, might have shot us, might have shot them. 9:01 No
matter how you looked at it, it would have come into us. While we were there trying to
think, “What are we going to do now?” One of these little observation helicopters came
in and our brigade S3 in the helicopter and he said, “You‟re being maneuvered on by a
33
�mass of enemy troops coming around behind us”, so then we got the order, “Ok, well get
off”, thank God, so we started down the hill and I was, you know—the guys were going a
little bit more, I was afraid, toward the maneuver element coming around behind us. I
wanted to go more below the military crest, so the guys on top of the hill couldn‟t shoot
us, so I was urging them this way, carrying two dead bodies, which are extremely heavy
and unworkable—and hot, really hot. 10:06 The prep of this hill had been so intense
that when you stepped on it, it came up over your ankles, and I was urging them to come
this way and there was a moment when I realized, “Oh my God, I stuck my head up too
far, and I thought, “I‟m dead”, but I ducked and I wasn‟t. We ended up then back at the
LZ that we came in on grouped with Delta Company, and my battalion commander came
in on his chopper and he jumped out and said, “When can you be ready to go back up?”
And I was just angry, so I responded angrily and I said, “That is crazy, how are we going
to go back up under these circumstances when these guys are exhausted?” I mean, they
had sweat every drop of water they possibly could. 11:03
I mean, hard to walk after a
day and it‟s late now and he‟s thinking about going back up, so that‟s where he and I
started to get crosswise. Another interesting thing, then we went into a joint perimeter
with Delta Company and my big pleasure was boiling water and making instant coffee.
You did this on this small can with holes cut in it. Did you talk to guys about this?
Interviewer: Yes
And then with heat tablets in it and then a pear can, which is a larger can, with the lid
crunched as a handle. So, I was boiling the water and I was leaning against my rucksack,
and during this, from Ripcord, they‟re firing direct fire over us just to continue to
suppress the hill here. 12:01 And you hear ttttt,ttttt, shrapnel going through the trees,
34
�and my pear can shifted and I said, “Oh, no”, and I leaped forward to get my pear can,
and when I did a piece of shrapnel, about that big, came wheeee, and whacked right
against my rucksack.
Interviewer: Right where you had been sitting.
Right where my chest was, and that is the essence of combat, you know, you‟re dead,
you‟re fine, it‟s amazing, the tolerances—why--and this is where survival guilt comes
from in my opinion. “How come I made it and the guy next to me didn‟t? Was it skill?”
It‟s not, its pure random luck.
Interviewer: How far into your time there, at Ripcord, do those events take place?
That was July
Interviewer: You’re getting close to the end then, at that point?
Yes, it was 13:01
Interviewer: Did you get wounded there or did that come later?
It was prior, when I was a platoon leader, and in that instance we were in a company size
perimeter and then we were the point platoon, so we took off down this ridgeline and
we‟re ambushed. Point man is killed right away, and what you do in that circumstance,
basically—first you get out of this damn pack, because we carried so much with us,
water, ammunition, food and all very heavy, and I went down on my back. I think this is
also interesting about combat, because other guys have told me this kind of thing, as I
lurched forward, I was seen watching grass just jump, jumping next to me, and it was
machine gun fire, and I saw something out of the corner of my eye. 14:03 And I knew
in that instant it was a chicom hand grenade, because they had this stem that came up out
of them that looked like a can with a stem, where ours were more like a baseball. So, I
35
�knew it was a chicom grenade, I knew I was going to be hurt, I figured I‟d be okay, and
this is all as I‟m moving—so the world gets so slow, unbelievable, and this grenade went
into a little bush and when it blew, it was sheared by the earth and it hit me like this. I
use to bitch every day, because I wore glasses then, about keeping my glasses clean. It
was just a game I played, trying to keep my glasses clean, but I bitched about them all the
time. Well, these fragments hit my glasses and my helmet. 15:00
One of them nicked
me here, in the side of the face, and one went straight into me—hit me in the head and
knocked me for a loop. Head wounds bleed like mad, so my glasses were all covered
with blood, and I knew I‟d survive, but you medevac a head wound because you‟re not
sure, so I did get medevaced, patched up, and then sent back to my platoon, so that was
that event. I‟ve heard people tell me—I had a guy tell me one time, he looked and there
was an enemy soldier right there and he saw the spin of the round and he missed it, and
he killed the guy. I had that experience in a traffic event one time where I was doing
360‟s on 1-96 our here, just watching the other drivers, and it‟s weird.
Interviewer: Sometimes when I try to tell people about how this process of
interviewing veterans works, I’ll talk to combat veterans and they’ll talk very
casually about gun fire and its effects and things like that, and they’ll treat it just
like driving on an icy road in Michigan and you’re the first person to actually do
that. 16:11 You mentioned at this point where you’re in that bad situation there,
and the battalion commander came in and so forth, and that you were kind of at
odds with him. Had you and he been working together for that period of time, or
was he new?
36
�No, he wasn‟t new; he was there when I got there. He was a good man—you know I felt
very badly for that field grade rank. They had by then invested most of their adult lives
in their career, and a guy like that is given six months to make your name, and I felt that
was very inappropriate, but there are these guys stuck in these situations. 17:01 His
commander had six months, and his commander had six months, and this pressure comes
down and down and down for results, for something sexy to write up about the unit, for
body count, for whatever it was, and it just felt like it was, collectively, we had our eye
off the ball, so to speak, and by this time I did question the purpose of the war. I said to
him one night on a firebase, I said, “Don‟t you think”, I thought we were just having a
conversation, “Don‟t you think that if there were an election held today, that Hoe Chi
Minh would win?” Guys who were boxed in like this could not allow that kind of
thought, and I was just musing out loud, so that deepened his, I realized later, his dislike
for me. 18:08 He was killed on Ripcord, of course, right on the last day, during the
evacuation.
Interviewer: You described that ended it. How was it—what was it that led to the
evacuation of Ripcord?
We were overwhelmed by numbers. We were a brigade and they had three divisions.
They wanted us gone from that area, so they really committed to it.
Interviewer: How much of your brigade, at the time, would actually be out there,
just one battalion?
No, three battalions
Interviewer: Three battalions, so, at a certain point you had all three battalions at
Ripcord, or in the immediate vicinity?
37
�We had two, and one was more focused on lowland security, so we really had two who
were out there and we were—there was a thing called operational control, OPCON, we
had a couple companies from another battalion, OPCON. 19:08 In fact, five of my
classmates were killed in that battle.
Interviewer: Did you eventually get to the point where you were getting large scale
conventional assaults?
Yeah, and that was really the—the indirect fire really picked up at Ripcord. By this time
I‟m at the brigade headquarters, I‟ve been banished by this guy. He came out one day
and said, “You‟re out of here”, and I said, “What are you talking about?” He said, “I
think the men have lost confidence in you”, and I said, “Why don‟t you ask them?” he
said, “Don‟t give me this, go”, and there‟s my replacement standing there. I will wrap
around to this, but as I got in the helicopter I felt terrible, but I never got to say, “See ya”
to these guys. 20:05 So, I had been banished to brigade headquarters, and I‟m standing
in the tactical operations center, an underground bunker, in a safe area basically, and I‟m
listening to this radio traffic, just the intensity growing, and then the decision—I‟m
standing there when the decision is made and we got to get everybody out of there, so
that became a real logistical issue. The Captain, who had been an enlisted man for years
was on his second tour, he was our S3 heir, he‟s the who warned us we were being
maneuvered on, he managed this whole thing from the air, he was brilliant.
Interviewer: So he, basically, had to lay down fire support to keep the enemy away
long enough for you guys to get into the helicopters and get out?
Right, and that didn‟t work so well on Ripcord. 21:01 There were choppers shot down,
and the battalion commander was running his chopper when a mortar round hit and killed
38
�him and the guy with him. That‟s when this fellow, Bob Kalsu, who had played for the
Buffalo Bills was killed. They put thermite grenades down the artillery tubes and
thermite grenades just burn with incredible heat and fuse the block, and getting the
artillery guys out of there, I mean it was an aerial ballet under intense fire that this fellow,
Fred Spaulding, he ran it, so there‟s this Captain really running the show, but, the
Generals up in the higher level.
Interviewer: So, what did you do after that was over?
After Ripcord was over?
Interviewer: Yes
I settled—I was the evening briefer for the brigade commander, I was in the intelligence
office at the brigade headquarters. 22:05 And the rainy season came--it‟s in the dry
season when supplies and stuff can really be moved and that‟s why they needed us gone,
because the rainy season was coming, and the rainy season tends to be less contact
moving around out there, booby traps, the occasional—a lot more booby traps in the wet
weather, and the occasional contact, and the South Vietnamese Army moved heavily into
our area then. We were doing a lot of coordinating with them, so I rode in a lot of
helicopters, went to a lot of basecamps, and ran radios.
Interviewer: What sort of impression did you have of the South Vietnamese Army,
or the people you dealt with?
I didn‟t deal with them much, what I was aware of was that their hygiene was horrible.
On our firebase rats were a terrible problem and I thought rats were city critters, but
they‟re everywhere. 23:08 At Ripcord, for example, you would use these sleeves that
artillery tubes came in and fill them with earth, or something and make them part of the
39
�security of the emplacements. Well, they would use them for garbage, and pee in them
and otherwise—it was pretty nasty, so there was a time our brigade headquarters, me
included, were on a firebase that was secured by ARVN‟s, and it was an ARVN artillery
battery, and, man, I did notice the rat population was much higher on that firebase than at
Ripcord, or others I had been on, or basecamp, for that matter, but I couldn‟t judge their
competence, I never really worked with them in the field. 24:03 I think there was a lot
of hope, by then, that the war would somehow find an end other than what ultimately
happened, and both countries were running low of young men, the north and the south, so
probably the quality of the ARVN Army went down, but I don‟t truly know.
Interviewer: So, how much longer did you stay in Vietnam after Ripcord was
finished?
Another five months
Interviewer: And it was basically this kind of duty at that point?
Yeah, on radios talking to the battalions, doing briefing on a big—in another bunker
with a big illuminated map.
Interviewer: Right, and once you were doing that, did you have a better sense of,
really, what the overall picture, or scheme of thing was and what was happening in
the war, or were you still kind of just focused on the sector that you were
responsible for?
Yeah sure, and then I was just counting my days. 25:02 That‟s what kept people sane in
Vietnam, was counting the days.
Interviewer: One of the observations that gets made a lot about Vietnam, and how
things were handled, has to do with the system of rotating men in and out of there
40
�and its effect on unit morale cohesion and things like that, because people got sent in
and out individually rather than as whole units. Do you think that was a problem,
or did it have benefits that balanced out the problems with it?
Well, I think to some—I think the way you put it is pretty good, I do. There was a
problem to it, but at the company and platoon level, the interest was to make this person
competent, not maybe my pal, because he‟s likely to get killed and I don‟t want to lose
another friend, but generally, I thought the troops assimilated the new people really,
really well, because it was in everyone's best interest, and they all knew they were once
that guy. 26:02 So, I don‟t think that was a great detriment, and when the world war got
going that‟s how it went, replacements came and went, so I don‟t think that was any great
detriment.
Interviewer: How long did it take to get acclimated, and to learn enough of the
ropes to have a reasonable chance, as good of a chance as anybody else of surviving?
Pretty quick--I remember the first night that I was with my platoon sort of staring into the
dark, and it wasn‟t totally dark and you can convince yourself that something is moving,
and there‟s enough stuff crawling around that there can be sound effects. There were two
critters that were most interesting, when you see like a centipede running around by the
toilet. 27:03 The centipedes were about this big and they had this brilliant, brown
shinny shell and orange legs and huge pinchers. I mean, if a guy got bitten by one of
those you would have to medevac him. I got up one morning and there was a little baby
on my arm and I flicked it off and “Ow, that hurt”, and I‟m thinking, “Whoa”, it‟s going
down my arm and up my arm and I‟m sitting there thinking, “Now, should I be doing
something about this?” After about an hour or so, it subsided, but that was an infant, and
41
�so we spent a lot of time hacking those things in half with the trenching tools. Then there
were these lizards, and I never saw one, but you would hear them at night. Have other
people told you about these lizards?
Interviewer: No
The “fuck you” lizards?
Interviewer: No
That‟s what they said, “fuck you, fuck you”, like that and they‟d be in the trees and
around. 28:04 You could swear, the first night that you‟re there, that somebody‟s out
there yelling at you, you know. The night they gave us twice as many replacements as
we had seasoned guys, there was a lot going on and we got into it and we barely made it
to a place, by nightfall, to get into a perimeter. We were very disorganized and one of the
new guys was spooked and he threw a grenade and it hit a tree and bounced back, so you
could think it was actually incoming, and that was really a disconcerting night. I had to
just yell and you wouldn‟t normally do that to everyone. To just settle down, this is
just—quit throwing hand grenades, you‟ll know it when you see it. 29:02 We were in a
place that was in sort of line of sight from Ripcord, and the quad fifties started firing out
in the trees and came right into our position, shooting up the trees and everything, so that
freaked these poor guys out—freaked me out, but I mean, but at least I knew to get down
in a hole. We were shot by everything except naval gun fire, I think. You know we were
shot by—we took friendly fire from just about everything, because you can‟t control it.
We never took a casualty from friendly fire, but it can “pucker” you when that kind of
thing happens. You asked me a question and I digressed.
42
�Interviewer: Actually you were doing fine. You get to the end of all this now, and
your time of your tour is finished okay, so describe, sort of the departure. 30:00
Well, while I was in Vietnam I said to myself, “I‟ve got almost three years left of my
commitment”, and by then I was bitter enough that I knew, “I‟m not going to do this for a
career”, and in fact, the only thing I can think of worse than the army in Vietnam would
be the army at Fort Benning, the infantry I mean. So, I said, “What is the wimpiest thing
that the army‟s got? Ah, the Adjutant General Corps.”. They put out the post
newspaper, they lead tours, so I wrote a letter to the branch and I requested a branch
transfer, and they sent it back and they said, “Sorry son you don‟t have any applicable
experience”, and I said, “Well, of course I don‟t”, but, I thought, “Okay, the
Transportation Corps., even better, because they actually do something”. 31:00 So, I
wrote to them and they said, “Welcome to the Transportation Corps”, so when I got back
and took a little leave, then branch transferred the Transportation Corps. , so I went
down to this little pastoral post in southern Virginia, home of the Transportation Corps.
To the officer advance course and I got my Vietnam stuff and my Ranger tab and my
101st patch and nobody messed with me, because they were pretty well—guys in the
Transportation Corps., not that they didn‟t run risks, but most didn‟t, and so, you just stay
away from---you give berth to a guy who clearly had combat experience, so it was sort of
like a protective shield that I had. From that course I was assigned to a place in D.C. It
was the worldwide headquarters of transportation for the military. 32:06
It was run by
Civilians from WWII, and they did not want the military—they way outnumbered us, and
they did not want us messing with their systems.
Interviewer: So, what did you do?
43
�Nothing
Interviewer: You were just decoration?
Yes, just hung out in a room with other desks and career civil servants. One night one of
these civil servants—these trade magazines would go around with a buck slip on it and
you‟re supposed to acknowledge that you looked at it and I looked at him toward the end
of the business day and he took one of these magazines and stuck it in the center drawer,
and he looked up and I was looking at him and he said, “Just so I‟ll have something to do
tomorrow”, so basically we went for coffee and went to lunch. I was under the wing of a
retired Air Force Colonel, who was one of these functionaries who showed me D.C.
33:04 I wore civilian clothes and one day a week I would wear my uniform.
Interviewer: How long did you do that?
A year and a half
Interviewer: Did that finish out your time in the service then?
Yeah
Interviewer: Did your wife come and live with you then, in that area?
Yes, and, you know, the aftermath of all of it is interesting, to me I think, because my
wife---by then we‟d moved from D.C. to New York, and we were both hired by IBM at
the same time, the first time a man and a woman cohabitated at an IBM training facility,
and our managers had to get involved to make it happen. She knew I was—and I live
today, I believe, because she knew that I was a different person, because I‟d known her
almost all my life, and she began to question me, and I was having nightmares and that
sort of thing and in the middle of the night she made me tell her. 34:03 She made me
tell her the story and that‟s a first step in the whole process. There came a time when I
44
�met a fellow named Bobby Muller. Have you ever heard of Bobby? Bobby and Kerry
and those guys were Vietnam veterans against the war, and Bobby decided to work
inside the system and he founded the Vietnam Veterans of America. He‟s the guy who
led it to the point of federal charter status. At this time he‟s in lower Manhattan, in an
office full of boxes of junk, and a guy I knew said, “You ought to go and talk to this
guy”, so I dropped in on him one day and he---interesting man, in a wheelchair. He was
in the ward that was featured in a cover article in Life magazine in the Bronx VA
Hospital with Ron Kovic and the dripping pipes and the rats and all that stuff, the spinal
cord ward 35:06 Bobby—tremendous energy, and he gave me this piece of paper with
these lists of behaviors on it, and he told me about guys he knows wearing pieces of their
uniform and talking like they‟re in Vietnam. I went home and said to my wire, “Man, I
talked to this guy today and he was telling me about these guys he knows—wow”, and I
gave her the piece of paper and she looked at it and she said, „Well, which one of these
aren‟t you?” I said, “Give me that”, “No”, “Yes”, “Well, maybe you got a point there”.
Interviewer: Were you getting any kind of, sort of, support from the military?
Were they offering counseling or anything like that, or was it more like everything
will be fine, you’re back now?
No, I mean they figured that and you know, I don‟t want to blame, I blamed at the time. I
was angry and I was alienated, but when you look back at it you can look at a continuum.
36:04 I know Native Americans when there were societies of Native Americans that
when warriors went out and engaged in combat, they weren‟t allowed back in the village
until they went through a process. You take the Civil War—a person who could not go
forward on the battle field was called a coward, and by WWI we had a more elaborate
45
�theory of “shell shock”, pressure and all, and no matter how you cut it, when a guy can‟t
go forward it‟s as though he‟s been shot. WWII we had a term, phycology had occurred
between WWI and WWII and we had the term “combat fatigue” by Korea they came up
with that point system, which worked pretty well in Korea to keep psychological
casualties off the battle field. 37:01 By Vietnam they had “DEROS”, date of estimated
rotation from overseas, which worked. The day you got there you knew the day you were
going to leave, so all you had to do is just contain yourself, and it really did keep
psychological casualties off the battle field.
Interviewer: You knew it would be limited and it wasn’t indefinite, so in that sense,
perhaps the whole rotation system made a certain amount of sense.
A tremendous amount of sense
Interviewer: Better than leaving the same unit in place for as long as it had to be
there and you just stayed with that unit, at least you had a chance of getting out.
Right---so it did work from that perspective.
Interviewer: What kind of job did you take at IBM?
Large systems marketing representative
Interviewer: How did you wind up with that job?
A guy I knew in the army had been hired by IBM and he knew I was thinking about
getting out and he called and said, “Why don‟t you come up to New York and I‟ll
introduce you to a couple guys”.
Interviewer: Did you know anything about computers at that point?
Yeah, I knew—actually ours was an applied engineering degree and we were working
with computers. 38:03 I never was fascinated by them, but I was---
46
�Interviewer: You had enough familiarity, or whatever, and enough training that
you could go in there and understand, basically, what you were doing?
Really, they didn‟t want you to know too much, they wanted to teach you what they
wanted you to know, so there was a lot of training, both technical and marketing. We
figured, if this isn‟t a life career, at least it‟s a great segue from nine years in the army,
back into the world.
Interviewer: Did you stay with that or did you move on to something else?
Four years I stayed there, and that was when I was really discovering that I had a lot of
unresolved conflict and I had this point of view, I had made this decision, I have
problems with authority, so I never butted heads with people, but I worked around them.
I‟d be sitting in a meeting talking to people, you know, sitting in a business meeting
looking at a point about halfway between me and the other guy, reworking, “gosh, if I‟d
only done it this way”, and that kind of thing. 39:10 Having startle response—I was
walking down the street one day with my wife and her girlfriend and a sound went off
and I was on the ground. Our friend thought it was funny, and it was, but that sort of
thing stays with you and just this whole reworking, reworking, and then becoming
alienated, you know, I was really disgusted with the government trying to give-- the state
that I was from was paying a bonus and I tried to turn it down and they hounded me so
much that I took the money, it was three hundred dollars, or something like that. The
IBM years were great, it was a wonderful company, and they treated us very, very well.
40:04 I learned a tremendous amount, but I just wasn‟t engaged in it.
Interviewer: Incidentally, where were you actually working for them?
In Manhattan
47
�Interviewer: So you decide you need to move on to something else at that point? So,
what do you go onto from there?
Well, I‟d gotten myself into therapy during this time, and I decided I wanted to be a
„shrink”. So, I got enrolled at Columbia in a graduate program for counseling, and I had
been working out with a guy who owned—a kind of remarkable guy who kind of
invented personal training and his gym was the gym to the stars, you know, Arthur Ashe,
Billie Jean King and guys from the Giants and the Jets would rehab there. 41:07 Well, I
had been a paying customer and I said, “I‟m quitting IBM and I can‟t afford it anymore”,
and he said, “Well, why don‟t you work here?” So, that became what I was really doing,
was working half a day for him while I pretended to go to graduate school, because I
realized fairly early on I was working on my own case. Then my wife and I decided,
“Let‟s get out of New York”, and we sold this condominium that we owned in the
suburbs, we had long since been living in the city, and went on a trip to California.
While we were out there, we were in the San Francisco area, we saw a lot of information
going on about people reaching out to veterans, and we said, “What the heck, let‟s move
out there”. So, we went back to New York, put some furniture in storage, put a bunch of
book in boxes, went out to JFK and moved. 42:08 We got a futon and rented a
houseboat in Sausalito and we said, “Our lives are now about unraveling this post war
upset.
Interviewer: When was this roughly?
1980 or 1981, and it turns out that San Francisco is just a wildly political place, and so
you take the veteran subset and it‟s that way too. In 1967 I remember being at Fort
Hood on a training thing and every night, in the officers‟ club, someone kept playing, “If
48
�you‟re going to San Francisco be sure to wear some flowers in your hair”, and I used to
think, “San Francisco, “flower power”, all those people, it‟s kind of interesting”. Well, I
ended up in a vet center rap group in Haight- Ashbury, so I finally made it; I‟m a
“hippie” in San Francisco. 43:04 Because of the people I fell in with, there was a top
forty radio station in San Francisco that had run afoul with the FCC and had to do
community service, and they picked veterans. So, I get trotted up and I‟m working for
minimum wage for this radio station, to put on an event at Fort Mason in San Francisco,
which is a port through which GI‟s shipped out and back in WWII and Korea. Now a
bunch of public interest groups—so we did this big event down there. It was a job fair,
music, art, “Country Joe McDonald” lived in Berkley and he was a great supporter of
veterans, and he was on an aircraft carrier off Vietnam. I then segued from that job to a
job in the Reagan Administration, which wanted to do away with as much of the VA as
possible. 44:07 Their theory was, “Find veterans out here in the world who are
succeeding and get them to do volunteer efforts and support to those who aren‟t doing so
well”. I was good for that because I‟m a West Point graduate, verbal, IBM trained, I got
into a lot of corporate environments out there, crazy guys, functioning at a very high
level, so this was the misapprehension that I think the whole program had. You‟re either
okay, or you‟re drooling in your socks, and there is this entire continuum, and plenty of
people who are functioning at a very high level who aren‟t okay at all, so I got a lot out of
talking to these people and sort of opening them to the idea, principle idea, that this kind
of upset is predictable and normal and transcend able. 45:10 There is a way through it,
but it doesn‟t just happen with time. Witness the WWII veterans who just came bilging
out in horrific numbers when “Saving Private Ryan” hit the theaters. They had been
49
�sitting on this for so long and no one wanted to hear it, that‟s the difference, nothing.
This experience does this to a sane person, the crazy people don‟t experience it, but
you‟ve got to work your way through it. The guy who introduced me to Bobby Muller
was a psychologist; he had worked with a lot of veterans. He had a theory that I
subscribe to, and I‟ve handed this article out to a lot of people, and that is—you‟ve got
the diagnosis, diagnostic manual that describes post-traumatic stress disorder as people
who cannot function. 46:06 Then you‟ve got the rest of us who have unresolved
conflict, and it affects intimacy, the ability to get along in the world, but not at the level
of can‟t function and most of us are in that category. The way to transcend it, the best
way, the model, is to be among others, who shared the experience, communicate about it,
and take on some constructive activity. That‟s where all these memorials came from, I
believe and it was a very healthy thing. I wasn‟t so focused on tangible things; I was
focused on just alerting people to this. I felt my job was to tell them what this is and that
something can be done about it, and hope that they would take the direction. My territory
was northern California; I saw a lot of places, a lot of people, and a lot of circumstances.
47:08
It never really amounted to much programmatically in helping people, but it did
awaken a fair number of people. One guy told me he didn‟t kill himself because I‟d told
him how to predict, and this guy was—he taught phycology at the college level. So, no
one ever presented it to anyone in this way. They‟re still not doing it properly I believe,
but at least they tell people when they‟re getting out now that this could occur, but when
you‟re young and you‟re tough somebody‟s got to come after you to get you
reprogrammed, so to speak, so o it‟s a long, long process. My next job, when that was
drying up, my wife and I looked and we weren‟t finished yet. 48:02 We saw there was
50
�an opening in Seattle for the director of what was The Seattle Veterans Action Center,
and it was one of the really old line, store front, counseling centers, national, Urban
League and National Council of Mayors, and it was the one thing we set out to do, was to
get that job, and we got it, so we moved to Seattle. I managed that place, and principally
what I did, was I publicized it. We had a lot of interesting—it brought a lot of attention to
it, and I learned a tremendous amount. The first thing I was in, with the radio station,
they put on a concert for us, Bill Graham, remember Bill Graham? So, they had a great
relationship with Bill Graham and he did an evening at the Moscone Center to benefit our
little 501C3. 49:00 Jefferson Starship, Grateful Dead, Santana, Boz Scaggs, and Joe
McDonald, so we walked out of there with 200,000.00 that night, so some of that was
back pay that I was owed, but most of it went to support other grass roots organizations,
that was our purpose, to support these grass roots organizations. I‟m bouncing, but when
I was in that center, this rap group, the guy who was assigned to be our facilitator, was a
guy who‟d had his arm shot off and reconnected, and on a prior occasion had been the
sole survivor of his unit. This guy was not facilitator material, he was group member
material, and I didn‟t know I was thrown in with these guys who were very, sort of,
charged. Nobody wanted to tell them what to do or anything and I didn‟t know that.
50:03 I‟m in the group, I like these guys, but nobody would touch us, so we, one night,
said, “Mike, we‟ve decided you‟re not the facilitator anymore, you‟re in the group”, so
we became this leaderless group sitting around talking, smoking dope, in the rap center.
What I began to realize was, what people do, as they tell the story over, and over, and
over again, it almost never varies. It never gets on to, “This is all my nickel analysis”, it
never gets on to, “What decisions did you make about yourself as a result? Like, my two
51
�best friends died, so I‟ll never love, because when I do they‟re taken away from me”. No
wonder people come back from these wars and can‟t form an intimate relationship, or
don‟t get close to their kids, or go down in the basement at night, whatever it is they do.
51:05 In my case, I think I have trouble with authority, that‟s the decision I made about
myself, so if you don‟t get on to expression in that level and get onto yourself, you don‟t
get through it. That‟s where that model of, at least take something on, and seems to aid.
One of the guys in the group actually had been in my unit a year prior, at Hamburger Hill.
He was a buck sergeant and he was the son of a Colonel. He basically, and more or less
said, he‟s committed to a life of misery as a gesture to those who didn‟t survive. I said,
“You know, Brian that just doesn‟t make sense. You would have wanted the guys to
survive so they could be miserable?” 52:07 I said, “I like the idea that I would lead the
life I would have wished for them, because I want out of this, because I can‟t stand what
this is doing to me”, and he was a little offended at that. I never knew what became of
Brian, but I hope he surmounted it, but generating this point of view is really what
worked for me and my wife, and so there did come a time when we felt like we were
really on top of that, and of course, we had gone flat broke during this whole process, so
we decided to move back to Michigan and start a whole different phase of our lives. I
really do think, and I credit my wife mostly, but I really do think, for me, this is now the
best thing that ever happened to me. 53:06
Interviewer: So, what are you doing now?
I‟m in the real estate sales business.
Interviewer: It’s not the best time to be in that right now.
52
�Oh no, but I had some good years and I will again, but you know, and I say what I do is,
“I listen to wealthy people complain about their money”, because they think that really
matters, and to some extent I sort of float like a bug on the surface of a consumer
economy, because it all looks a little bit like a joke to me, but you know, I do an honest
professional job. I just think drawing lines on the earth, and saying I own it, is a little bit
comical.
Interviewer: One of the standard questions in doing this sort of interview, and you
get around to the close, is to ask veterans something along the lines of—How do you
think your time in the service affected you as a person, or whatever, and a lot of the
WWII vets and things like that, that often hasn’t necessarily been touched on. 54:08
It seems to me much of the course of this interview had pretty answered much of
that question. If you were going to try to, sort of pull it together and say, overall
what effect did that whole military experience have on you, or how would you
characterize it, do you have a way of saying that, or expressing it?
Well, it made me who I am, and I‟m happy with who I am. If I had not gone to West
Point—when I showed up I was seventeen, I turned eighteen and they started beating my
mother‟s door down, “Where is this guy? Why isn‟t he down here registering for the
draft?” she said, “He‟s in the army”, “Oh bologna”, well that went on for a while until
they settled that, so looking back on it, I figure I would have taken my brother's job at the
windshield wiper factory and then been drafted. 55:03 Now, I could type like a demon,
so I probably would have been one of these stories—about ready to ship out and they
said, “Can anybody type?” But, I might have been a snuffy private and wiped out early
on in Vietnam, so I feel like the army saved me, oddly enough, and I got to be around
53
�remarkable people and learned a tremendous amount from the people I was around, so I
look back very fondly on the whole experience. If I hadn‟t been drafted, if I could have
gone to Indiana University, I would have spent the first semester trying to get into a
fraternity, the second semester on probation, and then been drafted. Instead, they locked
me in my room and made me study. So, generally speaking, the army experience I value
tremendously and I feel sorry for people who don‟t have something like it, and which is
why I feel strongly about a national service sort of component, because most people got a
tremendous amount out of it. 56:10 You get out there, they cut all your hair off, put you
all in the same outfit, and now, who are you? Better said, you start taking everyone else
for who they are and not what they look like, it‟s a wonderful experience, so I feel really
lucky that it all went the way it did, even though it was really painful for a fair number of
years there.
Interviewer: Well thank you for coming in and taking the time to talk to us.
Thank you, I‟m glad to yak.
54
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WilcoxJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Wilcox, Jeffrey (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wilcox, Jeffrey
Description
An account of the resource
Jeffrey Wilcox was born in New York and moved to Gary, Indiana as a youth. After high school, he attended West Point, and graduated in 1968. He was then assigned to an Army unit that was stationed in Berlin. He stayed there for a year, and was then shipped off to Vietnam. He joined the 101st Airborne Division, and operated for some time in the Ripcord Fire Support base. There, he frequently encountered the enemy, getting a minor wound in the process. After Vietnam, he spent a year and a half in the Transport Corps in Washington DC. After his time in the service, he worked for various different veterans support and advocacy groups on the west coast.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-07-31
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33ad5f045f95a10c1a16334a585e324a.mp4
e787edd9b920ffdd5a6e77c3446db4f5
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2e4c781d2b3425148c97231804f5bcf.pdf
6f3bc6ec20c6dcb2f71576438dcd9fed
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II and Korea
Interviewee: Ed Wikander
Length of Interview: 00:38:30
Background
He was born in Detroit in 1915.
His father worked as an engineer over in Detroit.
He and his brother were separated when he was 2, when his mother moved to Muskegon.
He went to Muskegon High School and graduated in 1934.
During the Depression things were bad for his mom and her three kids, so he joined the
Navy.
He joined the Navy because he wanted to die where it was nice and wet, not in a dirty
hole.
She did not have much to say as he was 19 and could join himself.
So in 1934, he joined the Navy. He went to Detroit to take the exam. He was one of 16
of 72 that were taken that day. He received a letter in July of 1935 stating that if he still
wanted to join the Navy he needed to go to Detroit.
Before he joined he worked at a wire company.
Training (2:51)
He would train at Norfolk, Virginia.
He would hitchhike to Detroit and from there take a train to Norfolk. That was the first
long train trip he had taken.
The trip itself would last overnight, and he would get there the next day. It was a regular
passenger train, and there were only the 16 men who had made it through Detroit that
were going to boot camp.
While he was in boot camp he did a lot of marching and discipline while he was there.
He would adjust fairly well to those conditions.
From there he went to aviation school in San Diego. He ended up being a battleship man.
San Diego and Active Duty (4:13)
He would go to Aviation School there.
It would be here that he learned how to use torpedoes and bombs for planes.
He worked aboard an aircraft carrier and ended up staying there to work.
He would be assigned to the USS Tennessee.
The Tennessee was a battleship built during World War I.
She was in Pearl Harbor while it was attacked. He had just left the Tennessee in July of
1945 [1941].
�
When he first saw the ship, he was not so impressed. He had heard that the battleship
was huge, but it seemed quite small compared to the other ships sitting at the docks.
He had to leave his Division for two days.
At that time, he had only been out to sea once, while he was in Norfolk. He would take a
ship to San Diego, going through the Panama Canal.
He caught hell for taking pictures of the place.
While he was on the Tennessee, he cleaned decks and painted things, just regular seaman
duty.
He would take long trips while serving on the Tennessee. One time, they had crossed the
Equator to get to some place, and they had a celebration when they crossed the equator.
New guys were called “pollywogs” because they had not crossed the equator before, and
they had a sort of special thing they did for the new sailors on the ship.
There were a lot of new guys on the ship because of what was happening in the war.
He got a certificate to prove he was a shellback, so he did not have to do that again.
He would travel from Long Beach to New York, again through the Panama Canal. He
would go back through again and go to Seattle. There the ship would have an overhaul.
While the ship was getting an overhaul, he would still be there, working and cleaning.
He got shore leave anytime in the afternoon, 1600.
When the guys got to shore, they would go to a movie or grab a couple beers, or even
visit some people, if they knew any.
He would travel to Pearl Harbor in 1935 or ’36.
Before the war, he thought Pearl Harbor/ Hawaii were a place of beauty.(9:45)
It was very busy there; a lot of political ongoing.
When he got to Pearl Harbor, he would get some R&R before leaving.
While he was there, there were many different ships, aircraft carriers, and other military
tools that were gathering in Pearl Harbor.
He knew that there was something suspicious going on because there were Japanese
aircraft coming and going from Tokyo.
They were there with other carriers, including the California, the Colorado and the Utah.
He would meet his wife there; this would be December 1941, just after he got out of the
Navy.
During his time on the Tennessee he did not go to any other islands or places. Later on in
his career, he would go to Korea.
When he first got to Pearl Harbor, he did not know where the oil tankers were, because
they were so well camouflaged.
Life on a battleship was just like living in a city. You could literally live on it.
He would leave the Navy in 1941 to take care of his mother, as she was ill.
He was thinking pretty strongly about staying in the Navy. If you could get through
those first couple years, you could make it through anything. But due to his mother, he
left.
So he had left the Navy and he thought he was done, but after the bombing of Pearl
Harbor, he would receive his draft notice in early1942.
Back into the Fray (15:55)
�
Once he was called back into duty, he would report to Great Lakes, Chicago. He would
stay there for about two weeks before being sent out to a small base near San Francisco.
No one had ever heard of the place.
There, he would help marines learn amphibious beaching. He would bring the crews up
and lay them on the beach. He would do this for a while.
He liked the training, he was his own boss. It was interesting work.
He was not married at the time, but he had met her earlier, in 1941.
He would go right out from there, and was not allowed to leave to go home.
Transported by the USS Seawolf, a liberty ship, he would go to Tinian.
59 Days is what it took to get over there. They would often zigzag, so it took so long.
He would travel with a convoy.
There were no problems with submarines on the way out there and they did stop in Pearl
Harbor before getting to Tinian.
Pearl Harbor was very different from when he last saw it. The Tennessee was still there,
as it had been repaired.
They stayed there for two days before heading out to Tinian.
Tinian (21:20)
Tinian looked like a wreck. The American military that was there had really taken over
the place and there were tanks everywhere.
His job in Tinian would be to build a new 1,000 bed hospital. Men would stop by there
to get treatment before heading back to Pearl Harbor.
He was in charge of the seaman’s guard and the laundry.
While he was there, he and the others would get news of political talks going on back
home to try to find peace with the Japanese. The US military would even move more of
its fleet in California to Pearl Harbor to intimidate the Japanese.
It was hot there, but it was just another place for him.
There were lots of Japanese left, who were put to picking up garbage.
These prisoners looked like any other Japanese to him.
He was on Tinian when the war ended. The bomb dropped on August 5, and they all
thought that would bring an end to the war.
He was one of the first ones to actually leave Tinian, due to his time served from ’35-’41.
It was credited to his total time there.
He would go home on a ship and it would take a straight line home, taking much less
time.
Korea (27:20)
When he got back the states, he went back to his job working with cranes.
He would get married in 1946.
He would work there for forty years.
He was working there when the Korean War started and was drafted into that war as well.
He was drafted in 1951.
He would go straight to the ship this time.
�
He would arrive in San Francisco and go straight to Saipan, Korea.
He would take the USS Prairie to Korea; it was a destroyer.
He would work on the ship as a deck hand.
When he headed out to Korea, he would retain his rank of Boatswain 2nd Class. During
his time in Korea he would be promoted to 1st class.
While he was on the ship he had 18-20 men working under him.
By this time, there had been some integration of black in the army, but most kept to them.
They would land in Sasebo, Japan. He would live on the ship, but go on shore often.
It would be here that he would learn to appreciate where he lived. He looked at how the
people there lived and especially took notice of the sewage that filled Tokyo Bay.
He did not do much for site seeing, as he was told not to wander around too much.
He would visit Yokohama and other cities, but not Tokyo.
Some people did get in trouble while they stayed there.
He did not go to Korea at all, but he just stayed in Japan (34:20)
He did not really pay much attention to what was going on in the war. Instead he just did
as he was told and waited for the time to pass.
Although he was a WWII veteran, he did not pay attention to see if there were any other
ones there.
In 1951, he would finish his tour and go home.
They were trying very much to get him to stay, promising position and money.
Post Duty (36:00)
The trip from Japan two about two weeks.
He would get home September 1951.
After he was discharged, he would go back home to his family and take up his work
where he left off.
His time spent in the Navy taught him a lot of things, including an appreciation of what
he had here.
He says that if you thing you have it bad, go to a different country and you will change
your mind. It is very different!
He learned how to work with people from 1935 on.
If he could have done it over again, he would have.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WikanderE
Title
A name given to the resource
Wikander, Ed (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wikander, Ed
Description
An account of the resource
Ed Wikander joined the Navy in 1934 and served as a seaman on board the battleship USS Tennessee until leaving the Navy in the middle of 1941. After Pearl Harbor, he was drafted back into the Navy, and spent about two years working at a Marine base in California before being sent to Tinian to help build a hospital. He was called up again for Korea, and served on a destroyer based in Japan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Navy
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-10-18
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fa934ddac1ce763d03474b38ea9de7d4.mp4
ea81a77ffef742b6280e5ee2f30db527
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/190078ae1331571130ddb8f44f0c5407.pdf
883e52c69b58e7aafc1e6740269f9302
PDF Text
Text
GVSU Veteran’s History Project
Operation Iraqi Freedom
Christopher Wiers Interview
Total Time: 21:08
(00:25) Enlisted when he was a junior in high school
(00:44) Boot camp was eye-opening for him
o Physical and mental challenge
(1:40) While he was in Iraq, during the first year, they built bases
(2:00) The convoy rolled out at 6 am; had to get up at 4:30 to prepare
o They went to get the Iraqi interpreter
o Then went to motor pool for the morning formation to hear what the company
commander wanted them to do that day
o Test-fired weapons
o Remembers giving village kids treats like muffins and Gatorade
(4:07) Worked 16-17 hour days for 7 days a week under extremely hot weather
conditions
(4:30) They didn’t run into civilians often, but mostly they were happy to see them
o At first the kids were scared, but not after awhile
(5:40) When they first arrived, they had to clean and rewire their barracks
(6:00) Mentions different food they had
o First Sunday of the month they had lobster and steak
(7:40) The second time he was in Iraq, he did convoy security
o 4 Humvees in their security convoy
o If they found anything, they would get out and clear it
(8:45) Enjoyed serving; didn’t ever feel scared
(8:55) There was a time when he was injured after they hit an IED
o They hit an IED that was made of mortar rounds and a rocket
o It was set up to take out a tank or troop carrier
(10:00) Describes some injuries of his friends due to the IED
(10:40) When he was ejected from the Humvee during the explosion, he had a bad brain
injury, shrapnel in his face and eye, broken left arm, shrapnel in legs and 1st and 2nd
degree burns on one side
o Doctors in Iraq weren’t aware of the extent of his injuries
o Brain injury affected him for a while; short term memory loss
o Still has small memory problems but has greatly improved
(12:30) Had a hard time adjusting to civilian life knowing his friends were still in Iraq
�
(12:55) Says that the military changed his outlook on life
(13:30) Showed some Pepsi cans from Iraq and his honorable discharge certificate from
the Marines
o NCO papers
o Purple Heart
o Pictures, memorabilia, videos, etc.
o (continues until the end of the video)
o One of the videos included footage just two hours before the crash occurred
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WiersC1008V
Title
A name given to the resource
Wiers, Christopher (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wiers, Christopher
Description
An account of the resource
Christopher Wiers enlisted in the Marine Corps before graduating high school. The time he served was from 2002 – 2006. During his second tour in Iraq, he worked in convoy security. They would clear explosives when they were detected. Mr. Wiers was involved in an IED explosion accident and suffered brain damage along with other injuries.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Rodriguez, Nicole (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-03
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f9c8322df25bb558bf6c3bf8dc7d1673.mp4
6648b7ec991abcbcb556502f8985b497
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb236fb3bb3b04f8ad74394f3f0ae7db.pdf
d05a6ec873757ff7ba89c090a738ab23
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Dr. Richard Wierenga
(25:01)
(00:10) Introduction:
• Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
(04:30) Air Force:
• Joined the Air Force after two years of college.
• Basic training was in New York.
• Flew F-86, Sabrejet airplanes.
• Became an officer.
• Remained stateside during Korean War.
(12:00) After service:
• Became a state champion in three cushions Billiards.
• Went to school to become a dentist, one semester cost only twenty dollars.
• Married while in the service, had 3 children.
• Dentistry school was four years.
• Contracted Multiple Sclerosis after working for 7 years.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WierengaR
Title
A name given to the resource
Wierenga, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wierenga, Richard
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Richard Wierenga, of Grand Rapids, Michigan, served in the United States Air Force during the Korean War. He joined the Air Force after two years of college and became a pilot. He was never sent overseas, but remained stationed in the United States.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Air Force
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-06-29
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01a9b72c8e38b8bf64dc9851d46395c0.mp4
adafe6ce687dddf0aa90a1b5f2c21fdb
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/460550fadb17eb06437e669c506767af.pdf
f146a0902b7cd84808890b6738d6dbe3
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
BRUCE WHIPPLE
Born: Lansing, Michigan
Resides: Lansing, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 5, 2013
Interviewer: Bruce, can you start us off with some background on yourself. To
begin with where and when were you born?
I was born in April, 1949 right here in Lansing. I went to school in Lansing and I spent a
little time in my early years in Holt, we lived in Holt for a while and then we moved to
Lansing. I went through the Lansing schools, my mother was an assistant to the principal
at Dwight Rich, so I knew all the teachers and could get away with a few little things and
she was always quite behind me with everything I did. She was always pushing me to do
better and to know people and that. I graduated from Everett High School in 1967. I‘d
gotten my draft notice just prior to that and went down for my first physical. 1:01 In
February of 1969 was when I had my actual draft induction notice, and at that time I went
out to a Red Cross Center and took a bus at 5:30 in the morning down to Detroit and went
through the induction process.
Interviewer: Okay, at this point, how much did you know about what was going on
in Vietnam and all that?
Absolutely nothing—in high school I was into cars and girls and just having a good time
and partying. I never paid any attention to the newspaper or the television or anything
like that; we were just out to have a good time.
Interviewer: Did you know anybody who had been drafted or had gone off to
Vietnam already?
1
�I had, because I was working at an auto trim, Schubel's Auto Trim. 2:00
And my
neighbor across the street, his brother had just been drafted and inducted and he asked me
to come down and help him out at the shop and doing that, I had no idea, I was still in
high school. I went down there and talked to Jack and this was on a Friday and I told him
I came down to help out if I could. Ken‘s brother was being drafted and I was going to
take his place and Jack said, ―Okay‖, and handed me a key to the door and said, ―Come
in Saturday and open up for me‖, and I‘m thinking, ―I don‘t know anything about this‖,
and he said, ―Just answer the phone and tell them I‘ll be in when I get in. Sweep the
floors and take care of things‖, and that‘s how it all started, and I‘ve been there over forty
years now. It was in 1965 that I started, and Ken‘s brother came back and I had a real
good friend of mine that I grew up with, Dale Hildebrand, he had joined the navy. 3:06
he was just getting out of the navy, he was actually in the reserves, but he needed a job,
so I said, ―Come down and work with me‖, so there were the three of us that were Jack
and Doc and I.
Interviewer: So, when you when you finished high school you didn’t have any plans
for college , at that point, or anything like that?
No, I had this job that I loved doing, and I loved working with cars, I loved—I mean it
was just such a natural, I mean, I couldn‘t believe that I could do this and they paid me
for it. I made money doing this and I just loved working on ―hot rods‘ and custom cars,
and meeting all the big guys from the custom—you know, Carl Casper and Big Daddy
Roth, I mean all these guys, they‘re California people, all these big names you see on TV
and you know, I can do this and enjoy it and I don‘t even have to work the weekends if I
don‘t want to, you know. 4:05
2
�Interviewer: But, they don’t give draft deferments for that.
No, they didn‘t. At the time, when I first got my first induction notice, my girlfriend
worked down on Main Street at the draft board down there, and that‘s where you went to
sign up and get all your papers and that, and she said, ―Well, I‘ll just put your card back‖.
It wasn‘t a number lottery thing, but just your name on a card, and she put my card back.
Well, that lasted about three weeks and I ended up getting my notice to go. 5:00 The
guys that I went to school with , Bob Taylor, his father was big in the National Guard, so
at the time, towards the end of—we‘re talking about graduating, and now we‘re
hearing—we got our draft notices and our cards are all 1-A and we‘re just waiting for our
induction papers and Bob was trying to get everybody to join the National Guard, and
just down the street from my house, two blocks, and thinking about it, we were all
thinking seriously about it, and think out of the five of us that ran around as a group—of
course Bob enlisted in the guard and his dad was a commander there and I think one or
two of the other guys joined the guard. Well, I‘m thinking, ―If I join the guard, that‘s six
years, and if I get drafted that‘s two years‖. 6:06 In high school I was taking up
architecture and engineering and drafting and that sort of thing, and I thought maybe they
could use somebody like that. I did auto upholstery and I thought they‘re going to need
people to patch tents and fix Jeep tops and seats and that. I thought, I‘d take a chance,
and I could do two years standing on my head, now that‘s what I thought. I got to
thinking, ―Six years, two years, I can do two years standing on my head‖, and boy was I
wrong.
Interviewer: So, now you go down and you get the physical and so forth, now where
do they send you for basic training?
3
�We went down to Fort Wayne in Detroit, that‘s the induction center and we were all
processed through, just naked guys in a line getting shots. We‘re all fine and they
couldn‘t find anything wrong with anybody, I don‘t think. 7:00
Interviewer: At that point, were there any people trying to find ways to beat the
physical?
Oh, everybody was trying to beat the system. Everybody, I mean, ―I got one leg that‘s
shorter than the other‖, and it doesn‘t make any difference. ―I can only see out of one
eye‖, ah, it doesn‘t make any difference, and we ended up going through that process and
then they put you in a room and have you raise your right hand and swear you in as being
enlisted in the service and they have you count off, 1,2,3. They had everybody in line
and had you count off 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, and 3 and then they said, ―Everybody who‘s a number
three step forward‖, and they said, ―Congratulations, you‘re a marine‖. They talk about
the marin‘s never drafted, well, yes they did, and I was lucky to be a two that day,
because all these guys, and I didn‘t want to be a marine, they were really in the deep
stuff, you know. So, we left there and got on a prop plane at the Detroit airport, Willow
Run, and it was the first time I‘d ever flown in a plane. 8:08 I‘d never been in a plane
or ever been near one, and we get in this prop plane and one of the kids, the guys I want
to school with, Craig Redman, we rode the bus down to Detroit together and talked and
we sat together on the plane. I mean, he was like, even, my big brother at that time, I
mean he was the one I---held me together, the first time I‘m on a plane, I‘m a nervous
wreck, we‘re going—and I‘m just totally wiped out. We fly down to North Carolina
because, normally, people from Michigan would go to Fort Knox or Fort Campbell, or
someplace like that. Well, they were full, so we ended up at Fort Bragg down in North
4
�Carolina, nothing but sand and pine trees and I‘m thinking, ―I‘m kind of used to this
being a Michigan guy, going up north, being at the beach, sand and pine trees‖, and man,
was that a workout, sand and pine trees. 9:05 To this day if my wife says, ―Let‘s go to
the beach‖, or ―The family‘s going to the beach‖, I said, ―Well, once they get all that sand
cleared off the beach I‘ll be happy to go‖, because I do not like sand.
Interviewer: What is the basic training experience like down there?
Oh, I was a little guy, I only weighed--I was about five eleven and weighed a hundred
and ten pounds and it was scary, I mean I was the small guy and you know, you gotta do
all these big guy things and something you‘re really not used to. Big guy things being
things like being able to do all these ladder bars and all these push ups and I wasn‘t
conditioned for that. I did grow up out in Holt, on a farm, so I was used to farming and
hunting and fishing and being in the woods. 10:03 As a kid we‘d go out and spear frogs
and fry frog legs or catch some—swim in the river and catch fish, or go ice skating down
the river and as a kid that‘s what I did. I was good with a rifle and we‘d go out with the
bows and arrows and sling shots, and everybody had their twenty-two rifle, and that‘s
what you did. That was my big downfall, I‘m thinking, I‘m not going back on my
experiences as a kid, I‘m going on my experience as going through school and the job I
had, you know, that would keep me out of being in the infantry. Well, needless to say,
my youth came into play and I was good on the rifle range, so I ended up in the infantry
unit.
Interviewer: Now, when you were doing the physical training parts was there stuff
they were telling you to do that you couldn’t do the first time? 11:00
Oh, definitely, yeah
5
�Interviewer: What happens to you at that point?
You just try to do more. I mean, you‘re in this barracks with—this huge building with
two floors and somebody‘s got to be up at night watching to make sure a fire doesn‘t
break out. You get up at five o‘clock in the morning and go out and do calisthenics, then
you run to a class, then you run to that class and then you come back for lunch and do
calisthenics before—you have to do calisthenics and ladder bar before you can even get
in the mess hall, and then you eat and run to wherever your next class is, and then you‘re
out on the rifle range or some other range practicing, or you‘re doing pugil sticks where
you‘re battling one another. You come back to the barracks and you‘ve got to clean, you
got to scrub the floors, clean the latrines, and everything‘s got to be spotless. You‘ve got
to polish your boots and then when the lights go out, then you have to write your letters
home. 12:04 Just to put something in the mailbox, because there‘s not enough time,
there‘s just not enough time, you‘re running just ragged.
Interviewer: How much emphasis did they have on military discipline?
Oh, everything was military discipline. You didn‘t talk to—you had to go through your
little chain of command even from—you had to go to your squad leader, to your platoon
leader, you couldn‘t just voice something unless you were asked, you didn‘t speak to
anybody higher than that, you spoke to them first. The squad of five to seven guys, your
squad leader was the one you went to, but your squad, everybody had to hold everybody
together, because if one guy didn‘t then the next guy didn‘t do well. 13:05 The whole
squad then falls and that puts you on another list and then you‘re doing KP and you‘re
out picking up cigarette butts, just every nasty little thing you can think of they got you
doing. You‘re trying to sneak food in because you‘re hungry and you want something.
6
�You know, I got caught sneaking in a can of coke to the barracks and had to do pushups,
and then they tried to take the can away from me and at that point I‘m so annoyed that
I‘ve done all these pushups and I want this can of coke. I grabbed it out of his hand and
started drinking it, and, of course, that made things even worse, so that put me on KP for
a while and a few more pushups every time and at that point I learned, ―Just be the little
quiet guy in the corner‖, you know, keep your mouth shut, just follow the guy in front of
you and don‘t look around. 14:01 That was what they wanted, that‘s what they wanted
you to do, you follow the guy in front of you and do what he does and whoever‘s in front
of him tells him what he going to do and the biggest thing was kill this and kill that.
Everything you did was scream, holler and kill and that just worked you into that form,
that form that they wanted you to be. I mean, at nineteen you‘re so—you‘re taking in
everything you can and you‘re so impressionable that you just eat that up and then they
tell you how big a man you‘re going to be and you‘re invincible, and that just sticks with
you. The guys that are training us, the guys that are running us through all this are
Vietnam vets that have just come back. 15:00 So, when you‘re having your breaks and
you‘re sitting around and having a little BS session, these guys are in the middle and your
eyes are this big around and just glued on them.
Interviewer: Were they trying to give you some idea of what to expect?
Oh yeah, and they said, ―What you learn here is nothing, you‘ll end up not using what
you learned here, but you want to remember what you learned here because by being in
that group is safety‖. If one guy does something and you know that‘s what he‘s going to
do then that covers you, because if he‘s going to do this, you know he goes right and you
7
�could go left, you know, that‘s the way it‘s going to be. You had to have this line of first
guy, second guy, everybody does what they do and you follow what they‘re doing. 16:00
Interviewer: They’re trying to prepare you to learn the stuff that you’ll really need.
What they‘re preparing you for is the fact that things are going to die, people are going to
die, it‘s going to be a lot going on, but they‘re preparing you just to be tough, I mean
everything‘s about fight and kill and even the guys when you get in with the punji sticks
and that fighting, you‘re out there to kill that guy, to do him harm and he may be your
friend. He may be your friend, but if he can‘t take it, or you can‘t take it, somebody‘s
going to die, that‘s what they put in your head. You gotta be physically fit and the road
guards they had when you ran down the company—you ran everyplace you went, nobody
walked, you ran. You ran down the company street and at the cross of it, where the street
crosses, you had to have a road guard. 17:00 And he‘d run out, block out—one on
each side of the road to block any vehicles or any traffic, so you guys could run through.
They took the real big guys, the guys that were overweight, they were the crossing
guards, so they had on these vests that lit up, reflected, but they‘d have to run up to the
street and block it then you‘d run through. Well, they had to run up to the front again and
catch everyone , so you could get to the next street, there wasn‘t the next guy in line that
did that, those guys, that was their whole thing, and that was how they got them in shape.
These guys, I had a guy that, Dipple was his name, I can‘t remember his first name, he
was our crossing guard, I mean he was a big guy and he got into fantastic shape. Twenty
years later I‘m out mowing the yard at home and he‘s moving into the house across the
street. I looked at him and I thought, ―Gosh that guy‖, and I looked at him and it came to
8
�me, you know, here we are neighbors, you know, twenty years later I think it was at that
time. 18:08
Interviewer: Now, were most of the men who were training along with you from
Michigan and the Midwest, or were they from a lot of places?
No, that was my biggest downfall as far as getting to reunions and that kind of thing. By
being in North Carolina there was only one platoon of us that were from Michigan.
Everybody else was from Tennessee, or Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, so that
was all their area, so then when you went on with your service you were still—everybody
was still in that same block. So, when we got done at Fort Bragg for basic, we went up to
Fort Dix in New Jersey for AIT, which they called Advanced Individual Training, but it‘s
Advanced Infantry Training, I mean that‘s all Dix was, and so, I‘m still with all these
guys from down south. 19:03 I don‘t like sweet tea and banjo music, and I wasn‘t a
country fan, country music fan, but here I am in the middle of these guys, you know.
Interviewer: What kind of backgrounds did they have? Did you learn much about
them?
Oh yeah, I mean the guys from North Carolina, Bennett, Lyman Bennett, he saved my
behind. He worked in a furniture factory. They had huge furniture factories and they
would take up four or five blocks and they just built all this furniture. He worked in a
furniture factory and a lot of them were just there because there was nothing else for them
to do. We had guys that just got bumped out of school and the judge gave them a choice,
you can do thirty days or three months or whatever, or join the military the end of the
month. 20:05
9
�Interviewer: Did you have any guys that were a little bit older, maybe in college for
a while and then out?
We had-----in Vietnam and John Henrich was his name, but most of the guys I was with
in basic and that, we were pretty much all the same age. Not too many college graduates
in the south and maybe that was because we were in the south, but most of them, we were
about the same age. I can‘t think of anybody, actually, that was a college graduate.
Interviewer: There were a lot of guys that I run into that had done a year or two of
college and then left for one reason or another, or their grades get bad and they
wind up there, but in the south, even among the white population, not too many
were necessarily going to college at that point, so that wouldn’t happen. What
proportion of them were minorities do you think? 21:01
I would say, all but one or two of our drill sergeants were black. I guess I‘d have to go
through and take out a picture. At that time I was just basically a farm kid that moved to
Lansing and race had—I had no perception of race. I mean, one of my friends, Terry, in
school, Terry, and just a few years ago we got back together for a class reunion and he‘s
telling me he‘s black and I‘m thinking, ―Wait a minute, you were my best friend in
school and you‘re not—―, well he was mixed race, yeah, and he said all the kids gave him
a hard time in school and I said, ―Terry, I don‘t remember any of that. I don‘t remember
us being that way‖. 22:01 I would say, in basic, probably a third were colored and it
made no difference. They ran right along beside you, they crawled over mud right along
beside you, they puked after coming out of the gas chamber with you, and like I say, our
drill sergeants, all but one or two of them were colored and they were the nicest guys in
the world. I mean, they were hard on us, but we knew shy they were hard on us. They
10
�were trying to prepare us for what they had already been through and they did a heck of a
job.
Interviewer: Now, how was Fort Dix different from Fort Bragg in terms of the
training you got and the experience you had?
Fort Dix was more parties, and Fort Bragg was by the book, straight up. At Fort Dix we
flew home every weekend. 23:01 I mean, we‘d only have like a fifty mile pass and
we‘d fly back to Michigan and there were five of us that flew back and forth to Michigan
every weekend.
Interviewer: How could you afford to fly back to Michigan?
The ticket was sixteen dollars and fifty cents and it was thirty three dollars going back
because coming to Michigan we‘d fly standby, so we‘d go on military standby for sixteen
dollars and fifty cents. Coming back we‘d buy a regular ticket.
Interviewer: You had to be sure you’d be back on time.
Yeah, we had to be back on time. We got stuck in the air one time in a snow storm and
we got back late, but nobody stayed on base as far as on the weekend and if they did, all
they did was drink. I mean, you‘d come back on Sunday night and it‘s like being in a
park atmosphere. 24:04 They got picnic tables and benches littered with beer cans and
that kind of thing. Everybody at that point, everybody knew where they were going,
because when you go to Advanced Infantry Training you‘re definitely low man on the
totem pole. Two of my friends from basic, one guy, Don Wilhelm, slept above me and
Steve Woodard slept in the next row of bunks, and Don was always upset, he lived in
Petoskey, he was a ski instructor in the winter, his dad had a housing construction
company that was there, so he worked there in the summertime building homes and had it
11
�made. Lived in Petoskey, beautiful, ski instructor in the winter, how much better can you
have it? He was all upset about going. 25:00 When we got our orders to go, Steve and
Don both got orders to be engineers and go to Alaska. I was pleased because of Don, you
know, that‘s what he needed, somebody‘s looking out for him was my feeling.
Interviewer: So, once in a while the army does something intelligent.
Yeah, and the bad part is that it doesn‘t necessarily work in your favor. I got in
probably—I was at a car show, of course working at the trim shop after coming back,
probably about five years later, I was at a car show and ran into Steve. Weird, he was at
the car show and we were talking, hadn‘t seen each other, and he said, ―You heard what
happened to Don didn‘t you?‖ I said, ―No‖, and Steve-- it was the first time I ever seen
him or wouldn‘t know Don, or have seen him, because of him being in Petoskey. 26:00
He said, ―Well, he came home on leave to get his car, he‘d just bought a new El Camino
and he was driving it back up to Alaska and was hit by a train and killed‖. I still have
pictures of the three of us outside the barracks. I still have that picture that I always set
out and I always think about that.
Interviewer: What did the training at Fort Dis actually consist of? What were you
doing there?
Well, at Dix I trained more into mortars, so most of our time, again, was physical,
running here to there, learning to shoot the mortar, going to classes to shoot the mortar,
learning to shoot the [M]60 machine gun, your rifle, qualifying with your rifle. 27:00
We didn‘t get to throw grenades, we threw rocks because the group that went through in
front of us, the group that went through in front of us, somebody dropped a grenade in the
pit and the guy was killed. They have a sergeant in there with you and he‘s teaching you
12
�how to throw the grenade because you‘re not supposed to throw it like you‘d normally
throw something, you‘re supposed to do this special movement and everything. One
went off and it killed the trainee and the sergeant was badly wounded. So, at that point
they wouldn‘t let you throw grenades anymore, so we threw rocks out of the pit and see
how close you could get to whatever it was you were throwing the rock at.
Interviewer: Did you get to go to New York City at all?
No, we went into Philly. We missed our flight once and we went into Philly. Not the
good part of Philly. Around an airport you figure it‘s pretty much—but you can‘t believe
the row houses, house on house, on house, and there‘s street, sidewalk, house and nothing
between them and nothing that I‘m used to. 28:06
I‘m figuring I‘m a city boy, but the
houses here in Lansing, they got room between them and you can move, and you‘ve got a
little greenery, you know. There it was—and it was a pretty rough place there, but we
spent most of the time going from bar to bar and being in uniform, we had to be in
uniform to fly standby, military standby, and the bars, as long as we were paying they
would give us beer.
Interviewer: Now, this was 1969, did you ever get hassled by anybody because you
were in uniform?
No, because we weren‘t really out in the open. I mean the people in the bars, it was dark
and they didn‘t—I don‘t think we went to the bars, actually, dressed in uniform. 29:00
I‘m trying to remember, I think we all had a ditty bag and we had shirts and pants in
there. We had to go through the—well, after they got to know you, you didn‘t need to be
in uniform, but we always—it was a race, there were five of us that always went from
Michigan, so we‘d get in a cab outside the base and tell the cabby, ―There‘s an extra
13
�hundred dollars in it if you can get us to the airport on time‖ , because we just minutes
from the time we got out until five o‘clock on Friday when the flight left. We flew
Alleghany Airlines most of the time and we‘d run past the counter and toss our stuff to
the ladies and they‘d have waiting there for us at the counter, because they got to know
us, you know, eight weeks of doing this. We‘d run for the plane and they said, ―Hurry
up‖, because they were getting ready to pull the boarding ramp. We‘d run to the gate and
get on and there were only about three or four stewardesses on the plane and us, so we
just, on the way back to Detroit, drink and talk to the stewardesses. 30:08 There would
be nobody else on the plane.
Interviewer: Now, was AIT sort of your last stage of training before Vietnam?
Right
Interviewer: So, at the end of AIT did you get to go home first?
We got a thirty day leave. Towards the end they run you—they have what they call a
mock Vietnam village, so they run you through that and you kind of do a little war game
and that‘s sort of the highlight of your training at Fort Dix. Yeah, then we went home.
We graduated from that, flew home and had a thirty day leave, and then my orders had
me—I had, on this particular date, go to Fort Lewis in Washington and I was on my way.
Interviewer: Now, at this point are you going in as a replacement, so you don’t
know what unit you’ll go to or anything like that? 31:04
You have no idea, you‘re just a guy in an army uniform and they could be—even when
you process. I went to the airport, got on a plane and flew up to Seattle, Washington,
we spent the night in ta hotel again, there was the five of us, and we ended up going to
the hotel for the night, and then the following morning we had to report, like six o‘clock
14
�in the morning, at the Fort Lewis, and at that point they process your paperwork and
make sure your inoculations are all up to date, and give you—I don‘t think they give you
any fatigues, I think you‘re still in your dress greens when you get there. 32:00
Interviewer: How long did you spend at Fort Lewis? Did they get you out right
away or did you stay around a few days?
We were gone that night. Yeah, we were out at the airport late in the night, one or two
o‘clock in the morning.
Interviewer: Where did it stop, or did it stop?
It did, it stopped and I don‘t know just exactly which ones we stopped at, most of the
time I slept. When I get on a plane I sleep most of the time. I know we stopped at Clark
Air Force Base, and we stopped in Hawaii, I believe. Other than that, the only thing I
remember is coming into Cam Ranh Bay.
Interviewer: Were you on a military aircraft or was it a commercial one?
It was a commercial aircraft and the stewardesses were all about sixty years old, because
going into a combat area it was a high priority, high paid flight, so here you are a
nineteen year old and you‘ve got all these forty and fifty year old stewardesses. 33:05
We were kind of bummed. You have to kind of laugh, because here we are going to a
war zone and thinking, ―I‘m never going to see another woman and I‘ve got to spend
twenty-two hours on a plane with my grandmother‖. That was the feeling.
Interviewer: What kind of a day was it when you got into Vietnam? Did you land
during the day or at night?
We landed during the day, and I‘m not sure, but it was in the morning, I guess, around
ten.
15
�Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there?
Oh, it stunk. It was hot, and it stunk. The humidity, I mean they opened the door to this
plane and it just hits you right in the face and would like to blow you right over. The heat
is unbelievable, the humidity--and again, nothing but sand. Cam Ranh Bay, all you see is
these huge sand dunes and everyplace you look is just all sand, nothing green. 34:08
You step out of that plane and the smell hits you and that place just stunk. I mean, it was
the nastiest smell; it was like walking through a garbage dump, that‘s what is smelt like.
Interviewer: Now, what time of the year was it? Was it about June or July?
This is in July, July 12th.
Interviewer: You get in and what did they do with you once you get off the plane?
Basically they ran you through a place to get—kind of like a big—they call it a pole
building now days, a big steel roofed building, and they give you clothes. You know,
you got jungle fatigues and you‘ve got to get out of your dress greens, which was half the
reason why you were sweating. 35:01 They gave you a duffle bag, clothes, underwear,
socks and stuff. You could work through the line and get that and they had you go
someplace, wherever you wanted to go, to barracks. Well, they didn‘t really have
barracks, but they had like a big latrine washroom, kind of, where you could go and
change and put your other stuff back in the duffle bag and it was just gone at that point.
Interviewer: How long did you spend there?
We were by that evening, I would say four or five o‘clock in the afternoon, we were on a
bus out of there headed for—we went to Bien Hoa. You got on this bus and the first
thing—all of a sudden you‘re dressed as a soldier now, and you‘re not looking spiffy, and
you‘re thinking, ―They gave us all this stuff, but they didn‘t give us any weapons.
16
�What‘s going on?‖ 36:11 I heard how bad this is, we‘re in a war and they put you on
this bus and it‘s got steel mesh, chicken wire, over the windows. You‘re wondering, and
everybody starts talking, and all the rumors you hear, ―Well, that‘s so somebody doesn‘t
run up and throw a grenade or something in the window‖, or whatever, and okay, were
taking this bus and we ended up going to Bien Hoa and that was starting—it was
outside—it was a big base camp and there were villages all around it outside of town.
They had like these wooden hooches that were raised up off the ground a little ways and
there‘d be about three laps of board and the rest of it was screen with a metal roof. They
had these big old army tents, the JP Mediums and whatever is the largest they can get.
37:05 If they have the same sizes everywhere, I don‘t know, but it was like having to be
in your underwear there, because inside the temperature is hot and those tents don‘t
breathe. And again, we spent the night in there, no weapons, and this whole planeload of
guys inside these tents and all this stuff going on around you and things. That night the
ammo dump got hit, they mortared the ammo dump and that went up. You have nothing;
you‘re running around, everybody‘s---Interviewer: What did you guys do?
You just sit there and shiver and wonder what‘s going to happen. I mean, you pucker up
real good on that, everything gets real tight.
Interviewer: Nobody sends you to a bunker or anything like that?
There‘s no bunker, you‘re in a compound and the bunkers are way out beyond where you
can see where you‘re at. 38:02 We were in those tents all night long, bugs, mosquitoes,
the heat, it was just nasty. Everybody was hot and sweaty and you couldn‘t hardly get a
breath it was so heavy, the air was so heavy. The next morning came and they started
17
�lining us up, and you know, and say where you‘re going to go and who you‘re going--they‘re checking your paperwork again and filling out all your paperwork. You‘re going
to be assigned to—Greg ended up being assigned to the 1st Cav, he was the one that I
buddied up with and we were both from Lansing and our wives new each other. Our
family—we knew from thirty days of leave time we spent a lot of time picnicking and
cookouts at his house and his parents‘ house, and my parents‘ house, so we got to know
each other and we got split up at that point. 39:03 He went with the 1st Cav and I ended
up with the 101st. Then it was a matter of, you have your group, ―you guys are going to
the 101st, wait here and the truck will come and get you‖. They put you on a plane, they
put you on a cargo plane, and we ended up going up to Camp Evans, which was up by
Phu Bai, and that was out major basecamp for us. We got there and everybody—people
were there, there was a clerk, five or six of them, calling out names, ―You go with this
company, you go to this side‖, so I ended up by myself, going with Echo Company, the
2nd of 506 [2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, 101Airborne Division]. That‘s how
I got to that company. Then I got in there and they—into the company area, and then I
started getting all my equipment. 40:02 They started loading me down with all my
equipment, rucksack, finally got a weapon and, ―What do you want to carry? My stupid
behind, I picked a M79 grenade launcher and thought that would be really neat. I was
trained in mortars and I was one of the best that went through the class, and I‘m thinking,
―Bump gun, mortar, things blooping out of a tube, I got it made‖.
Interviewer: Did you get assigned to a mortar unit?
Oh yeah, Echo Company was mortars and recon and crew served equipment, light crew
served thing, meaning it took more than one person, like with a machine gun you had
18
�your gunner and your ammo bearer, so it was that kind of a thing. When I got to Camp
Evans , I got assigned to Echo Company and they loaded me up with all my gear and
stuff and said, ―go out to the chopper pad, they‘re going to take some mail out to the
firebase, a firebase called Berchtesgaden in the A Shau Valley. 41:05 It was the worst
place you want to be. On a firebase in the A Shau, the only thing worse than that is
walking through the A Shau Valley, no different. Got you out to the helicopter pad, you
wait for the helicopter, and go out with the mail. I‘m setting out there and some guy, one
of the guys that were out there had come in for medical reasons, or something, or came in
to get something, I don‘t remember, but we sat and talked. He‘s telling me, ―Oh, you‘ll
love it out there. I‘m going to introduce you to Suzy when we get out there‖, and I‘m
thinking, ―Suzy, a female?‖ On the firebase he‘s always telling me about Suzy, he‘s
always telling me about Suzy, and finally--we sat there like three days until dark and then
we‘d go back to the hooch and spend the night. 42:02 Then we‘d come back out and sit
on the chopper pad. Now, this is steel planking you‘re sitting on and it‘s called PSP,
perforated steel planking, it‘s got holes in it, so when the helicopters land on it they don‘t
blow stuff around, dirt and that. When you‘re sitting on that it‘s a hundred and seven
degrees and there‘s no shade.
Interviewer: So, you’re just sitting there waiting for a helicopter?
Just waiting for a helicopter and sweating. Getting used to the atmosphere and sweating,
and getting a little more used to the atmosphere and sweating and trying to find
something to drink.
Interviewer: Didn’t you get sunburned sitting out there?
19
�Oh yeah, you get sunburned and you get dark and you just stay dark after that. Finally
we got a helicopter to go out and that‘s the first time I‘d ever flown in a helicopter. I‘m
thinking, ―Hop in the helicopter, close the doors, no big deal‖. That‘s not going to
happen either. The stuff goes in and then you go in and then you‘re sitting on the edge of
the helicopter with your feet hanging out. 43:01
Interviewer: so this is a Huey or a smaller helicopter, not a Chinook?
It‘s a Huey, not a Chinook, and most of the time we flew in Hueys, but you‘re sitting
there and just hanging out, and you got your rucksack on you. When you tip you‘d think
you‘d fall out and it‘s a weird feeling, but you‘re hanging on and your knuckles are
turning white. You‘re hanging on and the door gunner is just getting a kick out of it
because we got a newbie, we got a cherry here, everybody was called cherries when they
first came in country. Scared shitless, I mean, just unbelievable, and you‘re flying along
at treetop level and you got nothing out there but the tops of trees and the jungle. Flying
along and up all these mountains, and Berchtesgaden was up there and I think it was like
870 meters high, and that‘s pretty tall. 44:02 You get out on the chopper pad and you sit
out there and you‘re in the middle of two mountain tops with a saddle in between it and
artillery was on this side and mortars was this side with bunkers around it and concertina
wire, and that‘s where all the grunts pulled guard, that‘s where you pulled guard and
stuff. You get out there and finally get to meet Suzy, which his name was actually
Roland and everybody just called him Suzy, and that was the big joke of the—everybody
had the big laugh on the new guy, ―Oh yeah, he thought we were ―, okay. So, they put
me in hooch and I buddied up—they put me in my squad, which George Bourdwyn [?]
was the squad leader, and he was the gunner. There were only like four of us on the gun.
20
�45:00 There were three mortars on the mountain top, on our side of the mountain top.
Two H-E with high explosives in it and we had, down in the saddle where the helicopter
land, we had a mortar pit down there, but that just fired lamination, so when something
happened you‘d fire lamination to light it up and see what was going on. The H-E pits
didn‘t have that and they didn‘t have H-E down at the lamination pit, but I worked with
George up in the mortars and H-E pit. It was right on the side of the mountain, I mean,
you look over the side, concertina wire, and just nothing but air, right straight down the
mountain. George and I got along really great, you know and he was the best there was
at the time. Then we had Bennett who came in with me, he was already out there, we
went through AIT and basic together. 46:04 Bennett was from North Carolina and he
worked in a furniture factory. He was my ammo bearer, I ended up being the gunner, and
George ended up being the squad leader.
Interviewer: At what point did you become the gunner? Was that right away?
It was that day, right that day. This whole thing—at that point, right then, it was in top
pitch with George, he was the best, and I‘ll get to George in a minute, but I had a lot to
live up to. I mean, he was the best, and of course, I just came from the states and I was
the best, so I was the gunner that day. Bennett, he would fire, he‘d cut the charges off the
rounds and drop them down tube, I‘d set the gun up and we fired right from that moment.
I‘ve got a picture of George and I standing together because we both carried our thump
guns. 47:02 The picture was taken on George‘s birthday and he had just turned
seventeen and he‘d been there six months.
Interviewer: How did that work?
21
�His parents signed him up, and he‘d turned seventeen in the picture, and I‘d just gotten in
country and he‘d been there six months, but George was good. He taught me everything
I could possibly know about Vietnam. If you didn‘t buddy up with somebody when you
were there your chance of making it was, maybe, two weeks.
Interviewer: Not everybody got a very good reception when they joined a unit, and
had a lot to do with what unit you were with and what the guys were like. In this
case you had people right away telling you what to do and giving you some
responsibility and so forth. Were you firing the mortars from the very first day?
From the very first day, yeah, and what we had out there, we had a thing called a mad
minute. 48:03 At this particular time every night you‘d fire everything, so that‘s where
I got my experience. You‘d just fire a mortar just to fire it, it didn‘t make any difference,
chopper in some more when you got done the next day and you‘d fire it. Our pit was
built right along the edge of the mountain and like I say, it was right straight down to the
valley from there. We‘d fire them up at zero charge and try to catch them as they went
by outside the pit, which the stupidity of a nineteen year old the first thing is if you hit the
end it‘s probably going to explode, and if you do catch it, it‘s probably going to rip your
arm off because there‘s fins, tail fins and those things are going to mess you up. I was
just the idea, you know, that maybe we could do this. We‘d have a mad minute, and it
would be dark, usually around nine or ten o‘clock at night. 49:02 Everybody on the
bunker line would start and open up, throwing grenades, firing their 60‘s and their 16‘s
and thump guns, I‘d fire my thump gun and fire the mortars.
Interviewer: Did they tell you what the logic was in doing that?
22
�No, we just figured it was so we could get practice firing things and maybe whatever was
there we might scare away. This went for—I was there less than a month and we did
that, and I had the bright idea, ―Okay, we‘ve been doing this every night‖, and this came
down from the big guys, and artillery‘s firing too, ―If we do this every night at the same
time. Let‘s screw them up and do another one‖, so they decided ten minutes after we do
the first one, we‘ll do another one, just to screw things up. Sure enough—we always sat
up a bunker line every night and watched Kirby down in the valley, they‘d get overrun
every night, and they‘d get hit every night. 50:04
You‘d watch the green tracers, and
the mortars, and the red tracers going in and out, and all the flashes from the grenades
and artillery and everything. We‘d sit on the bunker line and watch that every night
down the hill. They were down in the valley and we‘d sit and watch them every night
and this night it didn‘t happen and we were all bummed and we were back in playing
cards. Mad minute time, time for our mad minute came up, we had our mad minute and
we all went back in the hooch and we were going to play cards again. We‘d get five or
ten minutes and we‘ve got to get back out and everybody‘s getting everything, and
getting back out there, and we started having our next mad minute. Well, the gooks were
coming after us that night and when we had our mad minute, they thought we‘d spotted
them, that they‘d been seen, but they hadn‘t. They were coming up through the garbage
dump and all around the mountain and coming up after us. 51:02
Interviewer: So, how did you know they were there?
When they started shooting and when things started coming back. You know, ―Wait a
minute; this isn‘t all something going out‖. I could actually sit and hear the mortar
rounds come. They were walking like a zee down the mountain and they got our number
23
�one gun at the top, the A-T gun at the top, and they were trying—mine was kind of over,
but they missed it and were coming down, and I don‘t know if they ran out or decided to
change, but they just—that‘s as far as they got. So, they‘re coming after us, coming up
the hill, and a matter of fact, they‘re in the light, they‘re so close you could see the
muzzle flashes. Now that our number one A-T gun is out, it‘s been hit with the mortars,
Bennett and I now went down to work the illumination, and Bennett‘s popping
illumination and I‘m running up to the A-T pit and getting some mortars and bringing
them down to that gun so I could help fire that gun besides firing illumination. 52:08
So, I‘m running up and down the side of the mountain and we got ammo crates put in like
steps, and the pit wall is about yea high and it‘s sandbagged. I‘m running up and
grabbing three rounds and running down and putting them down there and George is
firing that gun and I‘m running back up and getting three—Bennett‘s firing the
illumination while I‘m bringing the rounds down too. Things get tight, you know, we
could get from the other pit and do that, and I‘m running back and forth, I come running
down with three and throw them down and go to run back up and somebody grabs my leg
and I trip and fall on these boxes we‘ve got for steps. I mean, I‘m hurt and I‘m pissed,
what the hell, you know; somebody grabbed my leg and tripped me and put me down.
By the time I got done rolling around Bennett‘s looking around the corner and he said,
―You can‘t do that, they‘re shooting at you every time you run up that hill. 53:05 Sure
enough, there‘s the dump and it‘s right where I‘m running, the opening for our
illumination gun. So, by him tripping me he probably saved my life.
Interviewer: How did you know what to shoot at with the mortar at that point?
24
�You have what you call D-T‘s, delta tangos, and they‘re designated targets. So when
you‘re not doing something, which is not very often, but on a firebase, you‘re shooting
these delta tangos and you got them all numbered. Somebody will say, you know—you
don‘t have to have it, you got it on your board, you know where this one—they‘ll say, ―I
need a double tango right‖—whatever, and you know where that is and you got it right
there. I need it a yard from there or two yards, whatever, so you just fire it, because
everybody out there‘s coming at you and there‘s nobody out there you‘re going to kill
that will make any difference to you that could get you into trouble. 54:11 You set them
up and fire, you don‘t necessarily wait. What you do wait for is if you get a call and they
say that they‘ve seen a mortar, or somebody—an area where there‘s a group of guys,
Vietnamese coming after you, or coming up there, or if they see a mortar tube that‘s
firing at you, then your job is to take the tube out, to take that stuff out, so in all of this
you‘re doing all these things. You‘re shooting illuminations that light up the firebase, so
the grunts can see, the guys in the bunkers can see if somebody‘s coming up, and then
you‘re firing the other ones to keep whoever‘s coming up away from the edge of you, but
you know how far out you can fire, I mean you don‘t have any friendly‘s out there, so as
long as you clear the bunker line, you got to be so many yards out past the bunker line,
―danger close‖ is what they call it for the other ones and you can‘t fire within that area.
55:10
Interviewer: How long did the fire fight last do you think?
It started around dark, probably about—we wrapped our first things—probably around
ten o‘clock, I think it started, maybe and lasted until about daybreak.
Interviewer: It was a pretty serious ongoing thing?
25
�They were sending a good sized group came up and we ended up with thirty seven bodies
inside the wire. They were going after artillery, so that was the other mountain top, so
they were coming up from that [side] trying to get over to artillery, although they were
shooting everybody. They had thirty seven guys in the wire, bodies inside the firebase.
They were going after the artillery TOC, which is the control. 56:00 They did wound
the artillery commander, but most of them, a good share of them were found around our
artillery, but there were thirty seven. Then in the morning you‘re out policing everything
and cleaning everything up. We took all the bodies and laid out cargo net and piled all
the bodies up on the cargo net and I mean it was probably six or seven feet tall with all
these body‘s we had piled up there and it was like mannequins, wax mannequins, you
don‘t think of them as being anything more than that.
Interviewer: You had never seen a dead body before had you?
No, no, other than in a suit and tie in a coffin. That‘s quite a—this was—I had only been
in country maybe a month. You go through a week of P training when you first get there
and that‘s when they get used to you sending you to your unit when you‘re at Bien Hoa
and then setting on the chopper pad for three days and then getting out there. 57:02
Yeah, about a month and we were overrun. I was in a place and, of course, now I‘m not a
cherry because you‘ve been in a firefight and that.
Interviewer: Was that the only major fight you had while you were at
Berchtesgaden?
Yeah, right after that they pulled everybody. The monsoons were coming, so they pulled
everybody. They were taking everybody off of the valley, out of that area of the country
because they couldn‘t get helicopters in. it would cloud up so bad that you couldn‘t see .
26
�I mean, you could stick your arm out into a cloud and it was like your arm was gone.
You couldn‘t see from your elbow down that was a cloud. That‘s how thick it got, and
between that and the rain you couldn‘t resupply you. It was really hard to hump in the
jungle in the rain and everything was just so slimy, dead and slimy and rotted and
everything was just crummy. 58:06 Back to the guys—we put all the guys, the bodies
we had we put them in a cargo net and put our death cards on them, and hooked the cargo
net up to a Chinook, a Chinook came in and we hooked the cargo net up to the Chinook
and had them fly them out over the valley and let go. It rained bodies for quite some
time.
Interviewer: You said death cards, what?
You had a—at that time, before they banned them, it was a card saying who you were
and a lot of them were—they were like playing cards. Our playing cards had—they were
all the same card, the ace of spades. Wow, being the 2nd of the 506 our unit designation
is a spade, like the 502‘s is a heart. During WWII this happened, they had it painted on
the backs of their helmets so they could designate the unit that you were from. 59:04
Ours was spades, so we had the ace of spades.
Interviewer: Sending a message to the enemy, in effect, by attaching the cards to
them and then just depositing them.
Literally, through the whole jungle because I‘m sure they covered a fifteen or twenty
mile area by the cleaning. Yeah, we put them in their mouths. Once we‘d done that and
collected a few odd items they were taken away and then the next day is when I got my
really best sunburn, my whole body, I mean, I was sunburned because they brought in all
this ammo and it is helicopter after helicopter bringing in ammo and a new gun. We had
27
�to rebuild the pit and you‘re talking humping up these stairs we built from these ammo
boxes up the side of the mountain. 00 :04 Your carrying a carton, a box—mortars come
in a box that weighs fifty six pounds and there‘s three mortars in there and you‘re
carrying one on each shoulder and when you got good, you got one crossways, so you
had three mortar boxes on each shoulder once you got your strength. I could do two, so
the thing goes on, the physical part of it. You‘re running these all day long, opening
them up and putting them in—all out tubes—all our guns were –one wall was nothing but
mortar tubes, empty tubes, and you put new mortars in them, so that way they were all
open and they were covered with a sheet of plastic, but then you‘d pull them out to fire
them.
Interviewer: Now, did you run through that ammunition before they abandoned
the firebase? If you leave the firebase did they blow it up behind you? 1:05
Yeah, we left the firebase and it was just—it was probably three weeks to a month after
we were overrun that we left and they took us back to Camp Evans
Interviewer: About how long, overall, do you think you were there? Six weeks?
I don‘t even think six weeks. No, I would say four or five; maybe it was close to six, I
don‘t know how long we were there.
Interviewer: After that big attack, did the enemy try again?
I don‘t recall anything going on after that.
Interviewer: Would they just periodically lob mortar rounds at the base, or snipe at
it? 2:05
Generally they‘d send in—they‘d hit you with mortar rounds and then they‘d send in
sappers. What they would do-- these guys would run up to the concertina wire and one of
28
�them would just lay himself on top of it and the rest of them would run up in back to get
through the wire. That stuff about them crawling through the wire, that‘s, maybe, when
they were first starting to do it and they were trying to be a little bit sneaky, but when it
came to a sapper attack, they‘d just run up and one guy would throw himself on the wire
and if he had a satchel charge , or something, they‘d blow it, but generally speaking they
all just carried satchel charges and they‘d run from hooch to hooch or where they
thought the TOC was at, you know, to get bigger name people rather than just the lowly
grunt on the bunker line. 3:01
Interviewer: Okay, so they didn’t necessarily attack you on the perimeter, they
would go in and look for the main TOC?
Yeah, they‘d kind of get you going on one side or the other and then kind of sneak in.
It‘s a lot like when you get into an ambush. I—after we did Berchtesgaden, they closed
that out, and then they probably just bombed most of it into oblivion. Then we went to
Eagle Beach and spent a week at Eagle Beach and that was just—it was during a
typhoon. They have these big towers you‘re standing in and they‘re like these huge
telephone poles, there‘s four of them and then there‘s a deck with a little thatched roof on
it and I don‘t know if you‘re watching for submarines or what, but you had to pull guard
and I happened to get it the night the typhoon came through. So, we just tied ourselves to
the big poles and went through the typhoon that way, and I mean, everything was
blowing over. 4:03 At Eagle Beach there were Seabees and there were large petroleum
containers and that‘s where they kept a lot of the fuel and that was down by Hue, that‘s
south.
Interviewer: So that was basically in country R&R or was supposed to be?
29
�Kind of like in country, yeah, but that was actually—they‘d have these Vietnamese and
Korean groups come in and sing all these American songs and free beer, all the beer you
could drink. It was good food because there was a Seabee base there, so you could go
through their mess hall. We broke into it a couple times to get stuff from there. Then we
ended up going back up north and going to different firebases. We worked out from a
firebase Jack and that was kind of in the lowlands with mountains on one side and
flatlands on the other side. 5:09 Waiting for the monsoons you‘d kind of--then we came
and kind of circled our area of operations and headed up and took over for the marines up
at the DMZ. So, we worked the Rockpile and Camp Carroll. The marines were pulling
out at that time, and the 3rd Marine Battalion [Division?] was leaving and we were taking
over for them, so we ended up being up there at the Rockpile, which supposedly the
marines had been overrun four or five times, or six times, or something. We couldn‘t
even stay on it, let alone have somebody running it. It was just straight up and down with
this red clay and if you got out of your foxhole, or your bunker, you had to tie a rope
around your waist. 6:04 We‘d have guys that slipped right down the side of the
mountain, through the concertina wire and everything, it was just so slippery and you
couldn‘t get a footing, so how—there was only one way up there and that was on a
ridgeline, there was only one way up it and I don‘t know how they built a huge chopper
pad on top of it. Well, they had to build this—it looked like a deck, a huge deck from
now days and enough to land a helicopter on because it was so pointed you couldn‘t land
a helicopter on the top of this mountain because it was just so steep. So, they built this
huge chopper pad on top of the mountain, so they could just land and drop supplies off.
Interviewer: How long were you staying at these places?
30
�It would all depend, we‘d go in there and work the area and see how much activity was
going on, what we‘d run into. Like at the DMZ you‘d kind of see how many—if there
was a big force building up there, then you‘d go and work on that, then they‘d rotate you
out and bring in another unit. 7:06 The way we worked our unit is we went in first and
set things up as far as securing the area, so just recon the area to find out what was going
on, and find out if—well work was—well, that was your job. Your job was to walk
around the mountains and walk around the jungle and find out who was out there. Find
people and kill them, basically that was work. That was what the government was paying
us for.
Interviewer: As a mortar crewman, would you normally stay on the firebase when
the men would go out, or would you go out with them?
Well, normally we‘d go from firebase to firebase, we‘d be one of the first ones out to set
up the firebase, as far as for security. 8:01 I mean, they‘d bring other people out there
digging bunkers, but you‘d go out there and dig a hole to put your gun upon, or your
tube, and you‘d just be out there with the line company and they‘d start bringing people
in and you‘d move off, and we used to hump our mortars with—we helped a lot with
Chuck Hawkins from Alpha Company, and Chuck liked us and he called us his mobile
artillery, so we did a lot with humping mortars with him. But, we‘d go out and hump and
you may be out for thirty days or four, five, six weeks, and then they‘d bring you back
into a firebase and that was kind of our little R&R, and they‘d send another tube out to be
with them, so we kind of—we‘d get—it was kind of our refresher kind of thing. Get a
break and get our act together, clean clothes and a shower, maybe, and just some normal
food sometimes. 9:06
31
�Interviewer: Now, would this just be your squad that would be attached to a unit,
or would the whole platoon go?
No, it would just be my squad.
Interviewer: So, you bring one mortar tube with you and the four guys, and you’re
just attached, so you’re the portable artillery for the companies that are out there
patrolling, you are out there with them.
So, then you had all these people you‘re out fighting against, the Vietnamese, that didn‘t
like you, but you‘re with all these U.S. Army guys that didn‘t like you, because every
grunt, all the line guys, had to carry two mortar rounds. We had to carry the same thing,
but everybody had to carry two hundred and fifty rounds of machine gun ammunition.
That came down to us too, we had to carry a rifle, and I started out with a thump gun and
then I went to a sixteen, I went to an XM-203 over and under. We had to do the same
thing; we had to carry a full load of ammunition, a twenty one magazine if you had an M16. 10:06 Twenty one magazine, a dozen grenades, two blocks of C-4, two claymores,
a law, if you were humping the mortar you had to—I was the gunner, so I humped the
sight, and Bennett humped the base plate and Dave McCain humped the tube. I mean
you're talking—the base weighed sixty pounds, you put that in your rucksack and your
rucksack‘s already eighty five to a hundred pounds, so you‘re carrying a lot of weight. It
doesn‘t—you get on a helicopter—you get on a helicopter with that stuff and you get off
with that stuff, it doesn‘t come later, it‘s not individually wrapped. If you don‘t have it,
you don‘t have it, and if you‘re missing one of the parts of your gun, you might as well
have left everything behind, because you don‘t have everything. So, we went out with
Alpha Company, with Chuck Hawkins, and we humped that and everybody would hump
32
�two mortar rounds and they didn‘t like it, so they didn‘t like us. We really didn‘t get to
know them. 11:07 We didn‘t know the line guys that we were with, we were out with
them for months at a time, but, basically, it was more along—the only way you really got
to know them was trading food and cigarettes, you know, that kind of thing.
Interviewer: When you’re out there in the field with the line company, about how
many soldiers would these companies usually have?
A normal company would have a hundred and twenty I‘d say. We were never normal,
you might be out there with forty five, not very many guys.
Interviewer: You were also involved in the Ripcord operation and some of the
companies that were fighting around that firebase were down to thirty and even
fifteen at certain points, not really big groups.
We got down to where it was just three of us at the mortar. George left and then it
became—Bennett left, they took him out of my squad and took him down to the 1st Cav.
12:05 They needed guys down there and we needed them too. I lost Bennett, and I
had—it was my self and McCain.
Interviewer: Did they give you a replacement at that point? Did you get a new guy?
No we didn‘t, we dealt with who we had, so you became everybody. ―Pops ―was a—
―Pops‖, I was going to tell you about the older guy, he was our FDC, fire direction
control, and he was a college graduate, so when he came, we were all nineteen and he
was twenty five, so that‘s how he got the name ―Pops‖. To this day when he calls, ―Hey
this is Pops‖, whenever we get together everybody calls him ―Pops‖, it‘s him that‘s the
whole thing. But, most of the guys that we were with; ―Pops‖ didn‘t hunt for the best
spots at the fire range. 13:00 I was trying to remember, he was at the last reunion and
33
�we had dinner with him, Kilgore, James. I didn‘t know his first name until we had a
reunion. Kilgore, everybody called him Kilgore and everybody had a nick name, nobody
was called—I was always called ―Whip‖, and even today. Everybody had—
―Tennessee‖, I think his name was ―Tennessee", and McCain, we just called him McCain
you really didn‘t get to---you were close, but yet you were distant. You didn‘t want to
know anybody that well because they were just going to die and you didn‘t need that
extra burden, and for me, my burden being the squad leader and those my guys. 14:04
It takes a real load, I mean you don‘t want to be a squad leader because then you‘d have
to—I had to not only take care of myself, but I had to take care of them and make sure
they had what they needed and I didn‘t want them to get hurt, it‘s a real hard thing.
Interviewer: Did you spend a full twelve month tour in Vietnam?
I spent twelve months in Vietnam, I had an R&R, a week's worth of R&R, which actually
ended up taking up ten days. My ―P‖ training, which was a week coming in country, the
three days I sat on the firebase, and the seven days I spent—at the middle of my tour they
brought us back for what they call a refresher training to tell us what was going on in the
area and who we were up against and what they were doing, the kind of booby traps they
were using, and weapons. A total of all but thirty one days I was out in the jungle. 15:00
Interviewer: Now, after that initial assignment down by the A Shau, were you
pretty much in that northern part of Vietnam the rest of the time?
We just—we took over for the marines up there , cleared that area, got things back in
kind of operating order and then they brought in ARVNs, and they brought in people
from other parts of the 101st or different units to take over up there and then we‘d go to
someplace else. We rotated back down—the problem with the monsoons, the monsoons
34
�kind of go around the country, and now were kind of at the top of the country, in the
north and the monsoons are coming back down, so we‘re coming back into the valley, so
now we‘re working—coming in like Camp Carroll and then Khe Sanh, and we started in
at—actually we started in at the bottom of the country and they wanted to build a road up
through the A Shau, so we started out at Birmingham and went to Bastogne. 16:05 All
the 101st firebases were named after WWII battles. The firebase, when you first came to
it at the bottom of the valley was Birmingham and then you went Bastogne, and we went
up the valley. We went up with the line company and they were going to try—we were
going to clear the area and they were going to come in with engineers and build a road
after we checked out the area and made sure that we got whoever was in there out and
find out who they had to fight against, the of battle they will have.
Interviewer: That’s still pretty far north in South Vietnam, so you’re not by Saigon
or the Cambodian border, you’re pretty much up north?
No, you divide the country into five different courts and we were in I court and actually,
we were in northern I Corps, so if I Corps is this big we were just in this part of it, and
that was just---from way north. 17:04
Interviewer: Now, over the course of this year that you’re with the unit, how would
you characterize the morale of the men in the ranks at this point?
We were good, we were so good that—we loved what we were doing. The morale—we
were never in the rear where we had problems. The cooks and the guys in the rear were
the ones there were problems with, the guys in the field; it was a family, and again, you
didn‘t want to be close, but you couldn‘t help it, you‘re a family. I don‘t care if you
didn‘t know the guys first name, if something were to happen to him—you‘d be torn up if
35
�something were to happen to him. You were close, you were a family and we were good,
the whole unit. We went through and we did what we were supposed to be doing. 18:04
Interviewer: Over the course of the year some men will become casualties, others
will simply rotate out, so you’re getting the people coming in and you go from being
a cherry to being one of the old guys and so forth. Did the unit’s performance stay
pretty much at the same level the whole time?
Yeah, and because we were good, not because of the quality of the guy coming in, it was
because we were good and we could teach him, ―This is how you do it, and this is how to
be good‖. How you‘re good is your morale is up, you know what you‘re doing, and
you‘re family, I mean a new guy comes in and he gets a ton of ribbing, everybody‘s on
him about being a cherry and all this other stuff, and he always gets—the big thing we
did with them when we were out with the line companies, or even on the firebase, when
you get a new guy in you tell him all these stories. 19:03 This one guy came in and they
came in and cut off his—and did this, and all these nasty things, you know, and you got
sleep because this guy was up all night, you didn‘t have to worry about pulling guard.
This guy was so scared he wasn‘t going to sleep for a week, and that‘s what you did with
a new guy and you actually cheated him out of his sleep, so you could have sleep.
Normally you‘d get—you‘d be on guard for an hour and then you‘d be off for two and
then you‘d be back on, and that was kind of a rotation. Usually there were three guys in a
foxhole, or when you‘re out, and eight on the bunker line, generally three guys, so that
way you got an hour on and two hours off. That was the total amount of sleep you get
because when you‘re in daylight you‘re moving you‘re not able to and when it‘s
nighttime you‘re not able to sleep any more than that. 20:01 So, when you get a new
36
�guy you use him and just give him everything to carry. ―Oh, you‘re going to need this
and this‖, so you‘d load him down with everything you could find.
Interviewer: You were giving him attention. Sometimes new guys would come in
and get ignored.
No, I don‘t think any of them got ignored, not in our set up, we were different, we were,
like I said, we were really different.
Interviewer: How much of a sense did you have of what was going on in the larger
war or conflict during the time you were there? Did you have any sense of how
what you were doing fit into a larger plan?
We‘d get newspapers. I‘d usually get a newspaper in the mail and you‘d get an idea of
what was going on in the world and what they were talking about, but it never matched
what was going on. I always had to write letters home to let them know that this isn‘t
really what‘s going on here. 21:00 It might be other places, but where we‘re at—but
you never could tell them what was going on either because you didn‘t want to scare the
heck out of everybody and in most of my letters I sent home I said, ―Oh, it‘s raining here,
the weather's terrible, we don‘t get any sleep, things are nasty, the bugs‖, that‘s all you
really dared to say. You couldn‘t tell about what was really going on.
Interviewer: Now, did they send you stuff from home?
Yes
Interviewer: What kinds of things did they send you?
Cookies and crumbled cakes and, oh, the church would send you cookies. By the time
you got them it was just one big jumble of—but when somebody got a care package from
home everybody was there to eat it, and like I said, that was family. You didn‘t—―You
37
�can‘t have any because you‘re not part of our group‖. No, when that was opened up it
was gone in a heartbeat. 22:00 It didn‘t make any difference what it was, it could be—
we‘d get Kool Aid because the water came in water blivets and it tasted like rubber, so
you had to have something to pour in it, so you‘d get Kool Aid, gum, candy, just about
anything. If it was food or anything like that, it would be destroyed before—nothing that
couldn‘t put up with the weather would make it, because your mail wasn‘t necessarily, it
wasn‘t a quick thing and you might get mail once a week rather than once a day. I don‘t
think we ever go mail once a day. On the firebase you might get mail once a day because
the choppers come in and out. They throw out a mail bag and clean clothes. One of our
pictures inside one of our hooches you can see we got fresh onion and catsup and
Tabasco and that was some that McCain had gotten. 23:02
Interviewer: Did you normally just eat C rations and K rations?
Just C rations, that‘s all we ever had. We‘d get—if we had a body count we‘d get clean
clothes and ice cream and that was—you‘ll see on one of my helmets, and on the other
guys helmets, everybody had their own little slogan, or saying and mine said, ―We kill for
ice cream‖, which was true, because if we had a body count they‘d send out helicopters
and they‘d generally send out ice cream and clean clothes. Ice cream would come into—
ice cream would come in marmite [cans] and by the time you got it, it was pretty much
melted away. The clean clothes would come in a big bag and they‘d kick the bag out of
the helicopter in the middle of the landing pad and everybody would run out there and
grab it and dump all the clothes, so what you got was what you could grab quick, so if
you were the last guy there, your clothes didn‘t necessarily fit you. 24:02
38
You may be
�a big guy and have on some smalls until you can find somebody to trade with you wore
what you had.
Interviewer: Would the clothes deteriorate in that kind of climate?
They would rot like there‘s no tomorrow. You didn‘t wear underwear, you‘d get socks. I
never took my boots off ever. At night you always had your boots on and your clothes
on, even going in the stream, you might take your shirt off to shower in the stream.
Interviewer: What happens to your feet if you never take your boots off?
Well, you‘d take them off as far as to clean your feet and to wash your feet in the powder
room, but then you‘d put your boots right back on. The biggest thing you‘d want is
socks. Socks were the biggest thing to have, but the clothes, in a matter of weeks your
shirt and pants would be shredded. If you got into any kind of ―wait a minute vines‖, or
anything like that—like these humongous rose bushes, no flowers, just thorns, and if
you‘d get in those it might take two or three guys to get you out. 25:06
If you happen
to walk into one of those and you get trapped it would take two or three guys to chop you
out of there with machetes, and you don‘t dare move because you‘d get torn up and
anytime you got a cut it got infected. That was one thing, and that‘s why you always had
your shirt sleeves down and always covered up, just to keep from getting infected. You‘d
get into leaches—you walk through the jungle and you‘d think it was raining, you‘d hear
this pitter patter on the leaves and the floor of the jungle, and kind of darker than normal,
you think it‘s raining and it‘s leaches falling from the trees.
Interviewer: How do you get rid of the leaches?
You have a real good friend, because you get leaches in places you don‘t want leaches
and you can‘t reach the leaches sometimes. You got some friends and generally you can
39
�put a cigarette on them and make them let go, or you pour our insect repellent on them.
26:06 Our insect repellent was seventy five percent Deet, well now you buy insect
repellent and it doesn‘t have more than seven percent Deet. You pour those on the
leaches and it would make them get off, but it would go right into the sore that you have,
so that would get infected, so that‘s why some guy‘s skin just rots away. They tell you
this is going to happen. Because you don‘t have chlorine in the water your teeth are
going to go bad and they tell you that, the government tells you this, and if you use the
stuff--but you got to use the stuff to keep the bugs off, the leeches off of you, and you‘d
see a lot of guys with stings, laces tied around their knees and that and their boot bloused.
Of the leeches got past your boots and got up into your secondary defense, which was the
string around your knees. 27:06 So, that‘s why you see a lot of those—they weren‘t
holding anything on, it‘s protection to keep the leeches out.
Interviewer: Is that the kind of thing the other guys teach you pretty quickly when
you get there?
Yeah, oh yeah, leeches, and checking you helmet and you take your boots off to check
those for, not tarantulas, but scorpions, we had some guys bit by scorpions. You set your
helmet down and you sit on it, normally, and if you don‘t they crawl in there and you put
it on and they sting you. They weren‘t the kind that would kill you, but it would affect
your nervous system, and you‘d go into convulsions. We had quite a few guys that they
had to ship back and call in a medevac to get them out of there and get them back to the
hospital--we didn‘t have the care for them.
Interviewer: So there was a lot more out there that was dangerous. Not just the
Vietnamese themselves? 28:00
40
�Oh yeah, everything
Interviewer: Now, did you ever have South Vietnamese service men working with
you either as interpreters, or anything else, that you can recall?
At some of the firebases we did, some companies did, but we didn‘t. At one point we
had one chieu hoi when we were out on Ripcord. There were Vietnamese out there.
They tried to bring in ARVN‘S, but they never went out with us, we never—I never dealt
with an ARVN my whole life over—my whole time there.
Interviewer: What phase, or part, of the Ripcord operation were you involved
with?
The whole thing, from April when we went up the mountain—that had been a firebase
before and then they abandoned it, and now we‘re coming back to work the valley again.
Interviewer: The A Shau Valley?
The A Shau Valley and that was the thing, you work an area and then you move because
of the monsoons and gave it back. 29:05 At this time when we went back for Ripcord,
they had stopped the bombing and the Vietnamese were bringing down a lot of big stuff
and that was actually, what they called their warehouse area. We hit some cave‘s where
there were brand new clothes in the caves, bunkers, the roofs on bunkers would be three
great big logs on the top of the bunkers and three logs this big around stacked on top of
one another, so a five hundred pound bomb isn‘t going to make a dent in that thing.
That‘s the kind of things you ran into, a lot of bunkers like that. They came in through—
they didn‘t mind the monsoons, they weren‘t flying helicopters, so they were building
and they built this warehouse area in there and they built all these huge bunkers and they
brought all these--122 mortars is what they brought down, big guns, artillery, and they
41
�were bringing artillery down. 30:06 They were bringing tanks down. We were out—
one time when we were out with Chuck Hawkins we ran across a phone cable this big
around running along the jungle floor. It was that heavy of an area and they had that
much communication. I mean, it was huge. We ran into one cave and we found brand
new Mickey Mouse sweatshirts. What are the odds you‘d find something like that?
Mickey Mouse printed on the front of them.
Interviewer: How intense was the fighting around there, in that operation?
Ripcord was the worst we‘d ever had. They wanted it bad and we were a big thorn in
their side. We had Ripcord and I think Ripcord was about eight hundred and fifty meters
high [officially 927]. They had Hill 1000, so they were a thousand meters high. 31:02
We tried to get on 1000 and got nailed quite a few times, got booted back. I‘m going up
Ripcord and got booted out quite a few times—finally got up there and they started
building—we secured it basically, and they started building the firebase. They brought in
another set of mortars, so we took our mortars out and went with Chuck and worked that
area. I mean, everyplace you went—we flew in, helicoptered in, we‘re making a combat
assault onto this ridgeline, and this huge mountain went this way and the ridgeline came
down and the mountain was little on this side and went back that way. The ridgeline was
only this wide, maybe a third of the skid would actually set on the ground, and the rest
would hang over each end. We‘re getting out, and we‘re getting mortared as we‘re
getting out of the helicopter. We‘re getting mortars and we‘re running out and the first
thing we run into is bunkers. 32:02 We find mortar rounds laying all over the place,
their mortar rounds, and they just left. We came in and they hauled ass, you know. So,
we came in and secured that for a little bit, took a bunch of mortar rounds—we had a—
42
�they called in some—I thought it was a marine airplane. It was a prop plane like they‘d
use in WWII. They called in a couple two hundred pound bombs, or something, and this
ridgeline was so steep you could watch the waterfall, one of the most beautiful things you
could see, like we‘d seen in Hawaii, this beautiful fall coming out of the mountain. I
mean, it was steep and there was a stream down below and this mountain slid down to it,
all just beautiful. We were getting mortared when we came in on that, so they called in
this plane. I don‘t know who it was or who—I wasn‘t privy to that sort of thing, but he
had a couple of two hundred pounders, I‘m guessing. 33:03 I thought they were both
supposed to land out in front because that‘s where we were taking all the fire from. One
landed out there and the other one landed behind us and fortunately this thing was so thin
and narrow-- if it flat we‘d all have been in big trouble, but fortunately it just went down
the mountain and blew up the side of the mountain a little bit, put a little pock mark in it.
We went from there—we secured that, and the next morning we got up and we‘re starting
to walk out through the jungle and we‘d gotten a new point guy and I find out later by
reading in the book Ripcord, reading Chuck Hawkins‘s account of everything, we had a
new point man and he‘d only been in country a few weeks and why they even had him up
there at point wasn‘t real sure, but it was Wieland Norris, Chuck Norris‘s brother. 34:11
He walked up to a bomb crater and they had a 51 caliber set up on the other side and they
killed him and the next man, so I know everybody went down and that was when I really
got my first—we‘d been in situations like that before, but that was the first time I‘d got
where I could actually see them—they were going to flank us. This was to take
everybody to the front, everybody ran up to the front and everybody‘s hollering, ―Shoot
up their weapons‖, the two that were down, shoot up their weapons and get up there, but
43
�they were running through the jungle down the side of the mountain and going to come
around to the side, and that was the first time I‘d really seen that in action. 35:08 It‘s
like a football play on TV, you know, you hear about this play and it was the first time
I‘d actually seen something like that work out. We got a medivac in and nothing ever
came of it. There was a little bit of fire fight, but I don‘t know how long it lasted or
anything. I don‘t remember much about it other than getting the medevac in and getting
those guys out. We were out again with them—it was just a rough time at that time. I
don‘t remember much about that one.
Interviewer: It’s kind of a blur, you’re out there trudging around in the jungle, and
you’re under fire periodically?
Yeah, because I don‘t know why, I don‘t remember leaving and getting back to the
firebase. We went out again because we went out with the line company and I don‘t
think it was Chuck Hawkins that time that we went out with, but we went out with
another line company. 36:03 I could never figure it out, there was an illumination
parachute in the next mountain over, in a tree. We were on Cuoc Mon Mountain and this
was another mountain in the valley in between us. We were out there with a line
company and it just got to be—they didn‘t like us, we knew they didn‘t, we got a bet
going that we can shoot that, we‘re so good we can shoot that parachute out of that tree
with three rounds. Everybody‘s putting their money together and just the three of us, we
probably couldn‘t come up with more than seventy five or eighty bucks, or something
and they were betting all this money saying, ―Hey you can‘t do that you guys‖. I always
tell the story that we took it out in two rounds, pretty impressive when you do that. We
were down to the Ripcord reunion and Pops was there and I was telling him that story
44
�and Pops looks at me and he says, ―You took that out with the first round‖, and I said,
―Yeah, but that sounds kind of brazen to say that I got it with the first round. 37:01
It
sounds better if I say I got it with the second round, it makes me feel better‖. But that
was just one—why of all—and I asked him, to this day. One of the things that really got
me going when I had my PTSD was the fact that I went back to that day and here we‘re
around Ripcord and why are they letting us shoot mortar rounds at a parachute? Now,
some way or another we had to get some kind of clearance from above to be able to—
unless you under attack in a firefight where you need to fire and waste three rounds.
These guys hump these rounds out there, they don‘t like us anyway, do they just want to
lighten their load three rounds and why were we even able to do this? 38:00
Interviewer: I’m not sure how tightly a company was going to be supervised when
it’s just sort of marching around. I mean, you’ll get orders from above, or
something, but you weren’t in an area that had civilians in it, so that restriction
wasn’t there.
It wouldn‘t have been anything like that, but it was at a time where, when you got into
something they said if you call for more artillery they‘d say, ―You‘re almost at your limit,
your allotment for the time‖. It doesn‘t make sense, you got all these Vietnamese around
you why would you want to—I mean, I—granted we don‘t have lights up there showing
them where we‘re at, but I think if a mortar going off don‘t tell them where to look for
you what‘s going to, you know. It doesn‘t make sense, it never has made sense. That‘s
one of the things I asked Pops and it must have come down from somebody that we could
do that. 39:02 We didn‘t have, other than the—whoever was the—I can‘t remember his
name, but it seems like it was Charlie Company that we were with. Whether the Captain,
45
�the commander of that company—why would he even do that? None of it made any
sense at all.
Interviewer: Company commanders rotated through there pretty quickly too, so
maybe the guy didn’t know any better. You remembered that it seemed rather
strange. You mentioned in the process that you’re starting to see kind of rationing
of ammunition and resources, you have a quota of artillery that you can call and
that kind of thing. Now, was that true throughout the whole time you were in
Vietnam, or did that change over time?
At that point in time at Ripcord they were really trying to downplay Ripcord. There was
no mention of Ripcord until thirty years later. 40:00 I mean nothing , and now all of a
sudden in the VFW magazine we were number one at being—having seventy one guys
killed in one battle, more than they had at Khe Sanh and all of a sudden more than were
killed at Hamburger Hill, we were number one, Ripcord was number one, in one battle
we lost seventy-one guys, and I know for a fact that we lost a lot more than that, we lost
almost five hundred, but it went on from April until July. So, in that time, I know for a
fact, I got the paperwork that shows the names and places and what happened, but, why
the distinction all of a sudden? You never heard about it, but they were trying to keep it
low key. They were trying to make it look like the ARVNs were taking over, and the
ARVNs weren‘t out there. There were four hundred and fifty, I believe, of us on the
mountain top, on the firebase at Ripcord. 41:05 It was about the size of three football
fields and I never really seen the other side. You get up and you take a tour, you go down
to whatever you have to do, to the latrine or hump ammo from the chopper base, so I only
got to see my side of the mountain. But according to books now, that have come out,
46
�there was like four hundred and fifty of us on the mountain and we were surrounded by
7800 NVA from their—and, of course, without the bombing all these things were coming
down and we were being mortared regularly every day and every night. Tear gas, every
day, every night, rocketed, shot at, sniper fire, every time. I built my hooch underneath
the chopper pad. Pretty good thinking, they got PSP planking for the deck , steel roof—I
got a picture of me laying there and there‘s the steel roof, while we were building our
hooch underneath this chopper pad. 42:07 You build on the side of the mountain and
fill sandbags and build walls out in front, so you‘re mountain on the sides, and I got a
steel roof and mountain all around me and off at the front.
Interviewer: Now, do you have places where you would be actually on the firebase
and firing a mortar from there?
Oh yeah, you‘d come back—you may go out with a line company and be out a week or
two weeks or three week and then you‘d come back to the firebase and they would rotate
another gun out if they wanted another gun out. I had the fortune or misfortune, we were
liked, they liked us and we were good. I mean, just absolutely good and that was the
beauty of it and why—it was hard to leave, leave the country and leave those guys there.
I mean, you‘re such a good family and we were just good. 43:03 Chuck Hawkins didn‘t
take anybody else, just us and we kind of volunteered, I guess and we liked him. We
liked to get out beyond the firebase, on the firebase you‘re always having to do
something, where out there it was like boy scouts, you‘re out camping and getting shot at
a little bit more.
Interviewer: What was it like to be out there at night though? You’re out there on
patrol there’s a lot of enemy around in the area.
47
�What you do is you go out and you hump down a stretch of the jungle, depending on if
you‘re humping up the mountain or down the mountain, across the ridgeline, or whatever.
You‘d hump along and you had the line guys out in front of you and they‘re out there far
enough you can—they‘re just not quite out of view, I mean that‘s how far spaced you are,
you‘re not bunched up, so you‘re maybe, probably, fifty to seventy five yards apart
individually. 44:01 You‘re humping along and you got your weapons and you‘re
looking and watching everybody‘s—nobody‘s talking, it‘s all hand movements, hand
gestures and that and then you‘d go by a spot and somebody would make the gesture and
you‘d remember that spot. Then you‘d keep on going and you‘d wait for dusk and when
dusk came you‘d set up, you‘re going to setup your perimeter and this will be your
basecamp for the night. Well into, once it got dark then you‘d move back to that spot that
everybody pointed to, so that if anybody had seen you set up you wouldn‘t be where they
had seen you, you‘d be in a different area. So, in the middle of the night you‘d set up and
you‘d spend all night setting up. You‘d set, generally, you‘d sit back to back, so if the
guy you were with on guard went to fall asleep and doze off you‘d feel him, he‘d either
startle you awake or you‘d startle him awake if you happened to fall off. 45:05
Generally speaking there‘d be three guys and everybody, when you‘re on guard, sat back
to back depending on—if you‘re out on something like that you‘d have two guy out so
you had less sleep and then you‘re out—you get up in the morning and have your
cigarettes and fix your coffee and start on your way to someplace else.
Interviewer: Did it matter which company you were out with in terms of how
careful they were with all the security provisions and things?
48
�Some were a little lax on the—it didn‘t make any difference to what you did, but it made
it a lot more tense and that‘s why we probably volunteered to go with Chuck and his
company. We knew what they were and they knew what we were and we just meshed
and worked together, because I know a lot of them were lax with the smoking and the
noise, noise was a big thing, noise was a real big thing. 46:01
Interviewer: When you’re out there in the Ripcord area would you get attacked at
night? Would the enemy try to come in after you?
Oh yeah
Interviewer: What would you do when that happened?
Get as close to the ground as—wish you‘d dug a deeper hole. You dig your little foxhole
and wish you‘d dug it a little deeper. ―I wish I would have made this a little deeper and I
wish I were a little closer to somebody else‖. If something started happening your
adrenalin starts pumping and you don‘t know what you‘re doing, I mean you just don‘t
know what you‘re doing. Some guys don‘t do anything, some guys have their weapon
and will be firing and some guys will just hold their weapon up and shoot, just to say they
shot or something, I don‘t know. I was always leery about not having enough
ammunition, so I was pretty conservative. 47:00 When I had the sixty [M60 machine
gun] most of those guys, they didn‘t like it because I didn‘t—I was too conservative with
it. I was always afraid of running out of ammunition and it‘s not like you can just go to
the next corner and pick up—the chopper can‘t get in, you‘re in the triple canopy jungle
and you don‘t know if they‘re going to drop it where you‘re at or what you‘re going to
have and really you just need to lay down a basic firing when things start happening.
You don‘t know what‘s going on, all of a sudden things just get so wild, nothing like in
49
�your wildest dreams. We‘d eat—everything you carried was on your back and most of it
was water and ammunition. You didn‘t take a lot of food, everybody, usually, would get
a case of C rations and you‘d trade off what you didn‘t like and your cigarettes, or
whatever. 48:00 I usually carried mostly fruit and then you ate, maybe, once a day,
make coffee and hot chocolate, you‘d have packets of hot chocolate and coffee. You‘d
make those and you‘d eat up whatever you could find. Maybe somebody might have
killed a snake and you have a little fry, snake fry, or monkey, or something, because you
didn‘t—food wasn‘t that big an option and it wasn‘t something you really relied on that
much. I mean, you could go a whole day without eating anything and then late in the
afternoon have something, a pound cake and some crackers and that would pretty well do
you. I think it also made for the fact that you were not always having to take a crap in the
woods, you know, you‘re kind of on your own on that. 49:06 That one you have to kind
of—―I‘m going to go over here while‖ and ―Be sure to holler this word before you come
back‖, you know. I think your body kind of says, ―If you don‘t eat you don‘t crap
though, so let‘s hold off a little bit‖.
Interviewer: Now, in the time when you’re hit in the I Corps sector there by the
Ripcord or elsewhere, are there particular kinds of events or incidences, things that
happened to you , that kind of stand out in your memory, or have come back to you,
that you haven’t brought in here yet?
No, the shooting of the parachute was the biggest thing, I‘d always remember that and
there were a few things that happened on Ripcord and I don‘t usually get into them.
50:00 We were getting hit and we were always getting hit, it was just a matter of—
things start coming in and how quick you could get--- you‘d start firing back, so you‘d
50
�start firing—we‘d have the mortar up within seconds. It was already set up the guns and
tubes are set and the rounds are setting there. They‘d call, ―We need‖, and we‘d have—
Delta Company called in and they were pretty much annihilated. I think the CO got a
satchel charge in his chest and I don‘t think, at the time we were talking to them on the
radio, I don‘t think there were more than two of them that were actually alive at that
point. That got you going and then Chuck Hawkins called in, I don‘t think it was Chuck,
somebody called in for Alpha Company and they had some gooks coming after them.
51:10 They were fighting them off the best they could and then somebody else was
coming along—I don‘t remember how that went.
Interviewer: There were units patrolling around Ripcord all the time, so they would
get into trouble and they would get fire support from wherever they could get it.
Would you talk to them?
They would call in for the TOC. The TOC was setup in its own bunker and we had these
land mines that came out. The phones like the one I got in my trailer, in fact the picture I
got in my album shows that phone and that‘s why I‘ve got them. Those are actual things
we—the same things that we used.
Interviewer: Would enemy bombardments take out the land lines periodically?
Would those get cut or were those well buried?
I guess it could happen, it never—nothing like that ever—most of your land lines and
stuff were right in the ground along the edge of the sandbags, so unless it hit right on
there—52:10 We had a lot of them, the top of my hooch—I‘ve got pictures of the top of
my hooch, it was all sandbags and all this dirt would have been inside these green
sandbags and the whole top of my hooch was brown because the sandbags were blown
51
�away, so it‘s all covered with just brown. The way we had built our hooch, I could
stand—this was the chopper pad—I could stand in my hooch and my head would just
barely be just a little bit to the chopper pad, maybe my chin could touch on the chopper
pad, and the chopper would be—and you‘d be looking at the bottom and the tail rotors
were going there and blowing all this stuff, but we could stand in there and our pit wall
was here and the mountain went down like this , but we could stand in our hooch and
watch the helicopters on top of the roof be shot up, watch the tracers come over our head.
53:04 You could turn around and watch the tracers come in and shoot these things up,
but because of the angle they couldn‘t get us because of the way we were setup. All
these choppers they‘d be up there—a Chinook came in one time and the whole side of it
just started popping open and it just shuddered and set down, and then they brought in
another Chinook and were going to take it apart so they brought in this other Chinook and
they hooked up these big straps, pull straps, up to this big rotor on, four blades on the big
rotor on the back end of it and the another Chinook came in and a guys standing on the
other one and he clicks it onto the bottom of the Chinook and the Chinook pulls up and
disengages the rotors and starts taking off. They got to have a kind of downward motion
to get a forward motion to come off the mountain, that‘s why you‘re up so high, so they
can get going, and they come off from that and this is trailing behind them. 54:05 It‘s
probably a three or four inch strap, nylon belt strap, doubled up and everything. They
come off the mountain and we‘re watching them and they start leveling out and this
rotor‘s behind them, well, it‘s turning the whole time it‘s behind them and that strap is
knotting right up like a rubber band knot up, and all of a sudden you could see the tail
gunner, the guy on the—they got the back deck down and they got a 60 mounted on it
52
�and the guys laying on it as protection coming into Ripcord. You could see him and I
think the whites of his eyes are like this and this rotors right behind him and it‘s getting
closer and closer and he must have called in because all of a sudden the guys from the
guns on the side, because they got 60‘s out the side windows on the Chinook and the
guys from the side are out looking and looking and the rotors coming. 55:05 All of a
sudden the Chinook did one of these, and it just nosed up like that, and the propeller
from, the props from the other Chinook, came down underneath and you could see the
release when they released the cable and that thing just fluttered through the air. That
thing would have taken them out and the thing fluttered through the air and almost made
it back to Ripcord. At that point they decided to just push them off the side of the
mountain and burn them up. They were full of fuel-- they would shoot off a burning light
for three seconds because it‘s made out of magnesium and they just tear up right away.
That was one thing; you didn‘t want to be in a Chinook that crashed.
Interviewer: Did you hear a lot, was there counter battery fire? Did you hit enemy
mortars if you could, or figure out where they were?
Yeah, if we got a call in--Pops would get the call and they‘d say ‗Troops in the open‖, or
grouping, or mass of troops. 56:07 If we already had a VT set up for them, and they
were in our VT, we were on them like that. One time they setup on a hill across from us
and they were firing mortars at us and we were firing mortars at them. We tried to take
out anything. We tried to take out anything, not necessarily troops, because the big
things, the mortars and that would do more damage than just troops because everybody‘s
fighting with just rifles.
53
�Interviewer: Would they move their mortars around and fire a couple rounds from
one spot and then move it?
Yeah
Interviewer: Were they just trying to draw a bead on your mortar pits and take
those out?
They were trying to do any kind of damage they could. I don‘t know, generally—at
Berchtesgaden they came down the mountain, they would zee the mortars down there, so
they were planning on—I don‘t think they were moving their armor, they were on
another mountain watching us and they came down the mountain in a zee fashion like
that. 57:06 That‘s basically the way our guns were set up—we had a number one pit
here and a number two pit, which was George and I, here and the other one was kind of
directly below it at the illumination pit, I think that‘s what they were trying to do, just
blow anything that was there whether it was a person, a gun or mortar, it didn‘t make any
difference, they were trying to cover as much as what they could.
Interviewer: Do you remember leaving that?
The worst day of my life, it was terrible to leave those guys, I mean I felt bad. 58:03
Interviewer: Did you go out by yourself or did your whole squad go together?
No, just, Oscar Utley and I came in together, he was from Texas and he worked for Dr.
Pepper down there. He worked for Dr. Pepper, so he used to get a lot of care packages
with Dr. Pepper in it, but him and I came in together, same day, and he ended up being a
FTC and a matter of fact, I got a picture of him and I leaving my hooch and of course
we‘re getting—to bring a helicopter in is life threatening, they had so many of them shot
down, I mean just a bundle. What they did, the helicopters would come in and just be
54
�about a foot, or so, above the deck and they‘d kick the ammunition out if you needed it,
when you needed ammunition, kick ammunition, food, or grenades, whatever you have to
have. 59:02 Oscar and I are standing in my pit and we got everything and we‘re ready
to go. We have two days left in country, we‘re leaving on the 12th and this is the 10th.
Interviewer: Even though you’d become a short timer you were still out in the field.
Normally a short timer is when they have forty five days left and you get a clerk's job or
whatever. No, we were out there and we had two days left in country. Now they‘re
worried about getting us out of there, because I don‘t know what comes up if you over
extend somebody, I don‘t know what happens. I know your tour is three hundred and
sixty five days and that‘s pretty much set in stone it seems like. We had two days left in
country. They were bringing in some ammunition, some supplies, so Oscar and I ran to
the helicopter and we dove over the ammunition they‘re kicking out and got on the Huey.
00:06 The pilot looks at us and says, ―You can‘t go, we‘re too heavy, you can‘t go‖, and
I pointed my rifle that way and I said, ―We know how to lighten it up‖, and he took off
and we were too heavy. We came down that mountain and the skids were in the treetops.
The skids were in the treetops when we came down that mountain, and we went treetop
all the way back, because it was too heavy.
Interviewer: How long was that before they shut down Ripcord?
That was on the 10th that I left and by the time I got home on the 23rd, Ripcord had been
over run and they took everybody off and they left everything behind. 1:00 I got a letter
from David that I‘ll show you and David tells what they could carry, what they had in
their hands. A lot of guys didn‘t get their rucksacks out, they left all the radar units, all
the equipment, all the big guns, the mortars, and then they brought in the biggest B-52
55
�strike ever, the United States has ever done, and just blasted the top of the mountain
away. There were six guys left behind and they were killed. They were hiding
somewhere and didn‘t get out. Then they went back in—I guess after they, even after—
there were Vietnamese running all over the place when they were blowing it up, and even
afterwards when they went back into there, there were Vietnamese all over the place.
That was it—I got home, flew into Washington, Fort Lewis, and I was there twenty four
hours sitting in the airport trying to get a flight back to Lansing. 2:06 I couldn‘t get one,
we were flying military standby and there was a group of Girls Scouts that were flying
just standby, but we bumped two of the Girl Scouts. Well, you‘ve never been cusses out
until you‘ve been cussed out by a Girl Scout mother because she either has to stay behind
with one of the girls or two of the girls, but they got bumped and they were irate. I said,
―I‘ve been gone a year, I‘m going‖---we got into Detroit like two in the morning, I think
it was, it was foggy, it was so foggy you couldn‘t see even across the street. No planes
were flying, you could have thrown a bowling ball through the airport, and there was
nobody in the airport at two o‘clock in the morning. I mean, this is way back, I mean,
this is nothing; nobody, and we got a cab ride home. 3:01
There were four of us
coming back to Lansing and we got a cab and we each pitched in for the cab.
Interviewer: So, we have basically gotten you out of Vietnam, back to Detroit in the
fog and you took a cab from Detroit to Lansing.
There was nothing flying and we were in the Detroit airport. We‘d been gone a year and
at that point we would have walked. We all got together, pooled our money that we had
and found a cabby and asked him, ―How much will it take to get us back to Lansing?‖
He told us and we all piled in his cab, and you couldn‘t see the car in front of you, and
56
�he‘s trying to go down the highway like forty or fifty miles an hour because he wants to
get his money, get to Lansing and get back. We told him, ―Hey, we just all got back from
Vietnam, take your time‖, and we all had our heads stuck out the windows feeling for
curbs and it‘s just amazing we didn‘t have somebody sitting out on the front bumper
watching the car in front, you know. 4:12 You couldn‘t see anything—it took us—we
didn‘t get back in town, in here, until like five o‘clock in the morning. One of the guys
lived out on Cavanaugh, so—I can‘t remember, we dropped them off as we came in and I
was—Greg lived out on Cavanaugh, his mother-in-law lived there and still does, so I got
out when he got out and took my duffle bag and I lived over here next thing and started
walking home at that point. I get home and it‘s probably quarter to six in the morning. I
got home, walked up on the front porch and the newspaper guy was delivering the
newspaper, so I‘m sitting out in front reading the newspaper. It was my in-laws house
and my father in-law came out to get the paper with coffee in his hand and just lost his
cup of coffee, he spilled it. 5:05 I was sitting out there reading the paper and that was
―cumin home‖. I went over to visit my folks and Greg got back about the same time. He
was the one I went through basic with and we drove home. We met up again, everybody
got together and we had a little cookout and cake. I used to hang around with Greg quite
a bit and then we both got divorced and he went his way and I haven‘t talked to him in
quite a few years. I talked to George, I had—I went over to my mother‘s house, she
called me one day, and she said, ―I got a letter here from a Boardwyne, Amy
Boardwyne‖, and I never put two and two together, I didn‘t have any idea, and I said,
―Okay‖. Well, when I was in Vietnam, George Boardwyne, he didn‘t have a girlfriend,
so I had him, the same age as my sister, I had him sending my sister Joy letters and they
57
�were writing back and forth. 6:05 Well, Amy, his daughter now, was going through
some of his stuff and found the address and wrote a letter to me, to my old address,
because that‘s where I lived, and my sister lived, to ask if I would mind if George called
me, or would I call him and she‘d pay for the call, just call collect, or write a letter or
whatever. I finally, about a month later I called him and what do you say to somebody?
This is thirty years later, and we talked for a little bit, but we really had nothing in
common and I haven‘t talked to him since, and now it‘s been another fifteen years. I was
at a reunion and I happened to see a guy at the reunion that said, ―You were at Ripcord
weren‘t you?‖ I said, ―Yeah‖, and he had a Ripcord newsletter, one of the first ones and
Pop‘s name was in there, John Henderson. 7:06 I said, ―I know Pops‖, and he said, ―I
thought you might‖, so I got his name and address from that and I called him. I called
him and I‘m laying up in bed talking to him on the phone and ―Pops can tell you every
minute, anything that went on. He was right in with André Lucas, our battalion
commander and all the higher ups; he was right close with them. There‘s an article that
was in Stars and Stripes, I‘ve got in on the trailer, where André Lucas, our battalion
commander was setting in Pop‘s chair, which was made out of some ammo boxes and
Pops was giving him a haircut. Pops gave everybody haircuts. André Lucas said,
―Where else can you get a haircut and watch an air strike at the same time?‖ He‘s sitting
out there at Ripcord during a bombing run, you know. 8:06
André was killed on top of
my hooch. His TOC, of course, was right behind the chopper pad and he and his XO
were killed on top of my hooch. He was a great guy. From talking to Pops and I didn‘t
know André personally, but just from in passing and the fact that his place was on top of
my place, being tenants on the same mountain, he was a soldier‘s soldier. I mean, he
58
�looked out for his guys; he took care of us really well. When we needed something he
was there for us and you don‘t get that from a lot of them. Like I say some of them above
him—we got clean clothes and ice cream from our company commander if you had a
body count. 9:02 Other than that, look at you, you can do without food and water for
three or four days at least. We did that, we had that happen where they wouldn‘t
resupply us and we had to eat whatever you could find.
Interviewer: Now, when you got back home, did you talk to people much about
what you had seen or done in Vietnam, or did you kind of put that in a box
someplace?
I went to a couple parties with some friends that we neighbors of—we‘d partied a lot of
times before I went, when we were younger and stuff. We used to go—we‘d always have
all these parties, and I went to those and nobody wanted to hear about it to being with and
a lot of them—there was a gal from Ann Arbor, her and her husband came to parties and
she called us baby killers. 10:10 it may sound strange, and I know you hear it, and you
may think this is just another Vietnam vet saying BS and I hate it when people say it, that
they called us that. She called me that, Greg and I were together partying at Mike‘s
house and she was from Ann Arbor—she was a student at the U of M. We never got with
the group after that. My kids all went to Everett High School where I went and Nick
played baseball and he was a batboy for a kind of AAA ball team here in town, or ABC
whatever they call it, so we‘d go out to the municipal, the ball park, and families would
be there. 11:09 These guys were older than me and Nick was just a little guy, probably
only six, seven, or eight years old and he was the batboy, he was kind of their little
mascot kind of thing. He loved ball, he loved baseball so I got him in Raymon, I knew
59
�Rich and Rich, they played all over, we went to Battle Creek and we‘d go all over to play
ball. I could go to the ball park and wear my jungle fatigue shirt and nobody would sit
anywhere near me; I‘d have the bleachers to myself. There is a real stigma that goes with
it. The first psychiatrist I went to see when—I had a bad time with my heart and blood
pressure and I went—started in with the VA seeing—getting medicine and stuff and
seeing a psychiatrist and my first psych told me, ―Well, you shouldn‘t wear green and
you shouldn‘t watch war movies‖. 12:06 I‘m thinking—this is just like six or eight
years ago and I‘m thinking--for thirty years before that a friend of mine was in—he
didn‘t make the military because he was 4F, he had a hunchback and he was collecting.
He collected from the Civil War on up, military things, and he‘s got all kinds—just tons,
huge barns full of it, so he would take me to these gun and knife shows because he
wanted to authenticate what he was buying for his Vietnam collection. So, it‘s not that
the Vietnam—I would buy a few things, we were raising kids, and for three or four bucks
I‘d find a dummy grenade or, you know, a patch or something like that and that‘s what
started out the collection. Then it just kind of got out of hand, but we would do air
shows. He got me—he had a deuce and a half and the trailers and everything and he got
me taking my collection—I was helping him basically, I went along to help him. 13:07
then he said, ―Why don‘t you bring some of your stuff?‖ Well, we‘d unload one of the
trailers and I‘d put a poncho liner down, or a raincoat, or something like that and I‘d put
some of my pictures down there. Well, when you went to the military side , all of a
sudden all the military people, and the people who were coming to see the military were
coming to look at my stuff, and I thought, ―Well, that‘s really nice‖, they were interested
in my things, you know, and ever since I got back and he got me going, I was always
60
�looking for something, and I don‘t know if it was a person, somebody to say something
particular, or a piece of equipment, I never—ever since I got back I‘ve had this problem.
I‘ve been hunting, hunting, hunting for this thing and that‘s how I kept buying all this
stuff, thinking that—I‘ll go to these shows and run into guys and I run into military guys
all the time. 14:07 I‘ve been just talking to them for thirty years, but I could never find
that answer, but that‘s how everything started and then my second, the VA Psychologist I
ended up with, the second one, her and I got to talking and I told her, ―I‘m hunting and I
don‘t know what I‘m hunting for‖. I could never figure out what I was hunting for, but
what‘s this thing that‘s eating me up and has for forty years? I can‘t get peace; I have not
found that thing that draws the line and says it‘s ended, it‘s over. I‘m looking for this
thing that finishes it. It‘s like a book and somebody ripped off the last page or chapter,
what is it? What is it and how does it end? 15:00 I got to talk to her and I didn‘t like
talking to her at the beginning because she was young. I‘m thinking—I‘m going through
all this heart stuff and all these problems, PTSD‘s got me, my wife and I are—I‘m trying
to kill myself—I mean, yeah, at two o‘clock in the morning I‘m leaving the house here
and walking down through the worst part of town carrying a knife, just looking for
somebody to fight. I would drink, I drank a lot and I‘d go out and I was funny when I
first started drinking, but it just went away and I would drink and not drunk, but really
drunk and trying to find this peace and whatever I‘m looking for and then I got ugly and
all I wanted to do was fight, so then I had to stop doing that because Jennifer wouldn‘t
leave when she was with me. I‘d toss her the keys and say, ―Go home, I‘ll be home in a
little bit‖, and then I‘d go on about my business of getting into a fight. 16:05 At one
point in time she said, ―No, I‘m not leaving‖, and at that point it clicked in my head that
61
�something‘s got to change. I can‘t do this anymore because now I‘m endangering her
life, and that‘s what I‘m—all my life I‘ve been trying to protect people, you know, and it
just carries through, it never leaves you, that being drilled into your head back when
you‘re nineteen, it never leaves you. I went back to the same thing, so I quit drinking and
started going to PTSD groups, and seeing a Psychiatrist. I see one a week, and Angela
was the one, I told her, ―I don‘t have time to educate her‖. I told her at the beginning, at
the first, I said, ―You know, people who deal with Vietnam veterans usually die. You
should really find some other line and get away from the vets, it‘s not healthy‖. 17:00
When I came back my doctor, who was my age, died and the next person I got in touch
with, he died. Not knowing, I‘m talking with Angela and she‘s getting me through this
thing, she has cancer and she dies, and this was like just a few years ago. I was really-she found my answer and I lost her. Now I‘m starting in with, I got Bill, a new guy that
has taken over our group, but if it wasn‘t for the group, I‘d of been back out there on the
street walking with my knife again.
Interviewer: And you wouldn’t be in a place where you can talk to me.
Yeah, and any of the others, you know, that‘s what hold me to my firm space, is I think,
―All the guys that went through this and didn‘t come back, that‘s what my trailer‘s
about‖, and that‘s what Angela told me. 18:03 She said, ―Your treatment doesn‘t make
anything different for your PTSD, that‘s not the cause of your PTSD, that‘s not bringing
on your PTSD, you could get rid of all the green in the world and it wouldn‘t stop your
PTSD, that‘s not the problem. The problem you have is in your head‖. We started
talking and I said, ―I know when we were in one of the firefights, everybody around me
is getting shot or dying‖. I said, I told her, ―I talk a lot to God. I really feel bad because I
62
�don‘t dare to step into a church because I‘ve got a lot of promises I knew I couldn‘t keep
and I think he knew I couldn‘t keep them too—God get me out of this, get me to—give
us another day—give us something, somehow help us through this‖. 19:03 We were
talking about the trailer and that and she said, ―That‘s what you‘re looking for‖. I said,
―What do you mean?‖ She said, ―This is your promise to god, in the trailer. That you‘re
keeping all these guys alive, you‘re keeping them well, you‘re keeping them
remembered, and that‘s what you promised God. This is your payment; this is how
you‘re repaying him by doing this. That‘s why the trailer, you won‘t get better getting rid
of all this and staying away from it, that has nothing to do with it. You can meet all the
veterans you want, you can wear all the green you want. This is your promise to God and
that‘s what‘s in your brain and that‘s what you‘re looking for‖. And I finally found
peace.
Interviewer: That makes a pretty good place for us to close this out, so I want to
thank you for taking the time to talk to me today.
I‘m glad we had this time to tell the people. 20:05
63
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WhippleB1172V
Title
A name given to the resource
Whipple, Bruce (Interview transcript and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Whipple, Bruce
Description
An account of the resource
Bruce Whipple was born in Lansing, Michigan, and was drafted into the Army two years after high school. He trained as an infantryman at Fort Bragg and Fort Dix, and went to Vietnam in July, 1969. He was assigned to mortar platoon Echo Company, 2/506 Infantry, 101st Airborne Division. His unit fought in the A Shau Valley, then near the coast around Camp Evans, then in the Ripcord campaign. He spent nearly all of his tour in the field, much of it attached to line companies rather than staying on firebases.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-07-27
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e94a1dc22bdcca681b9b3670a9ea3ed.mp4
8c30c0c0f1470bf49bfa106c339c5e61
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c141d5c16fef24b943e9878e3c1486c2.pdf
4a37c52b6b0d9bafc88d1785756f4776
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Jacob Westra
Length: 1:25:23
(00:20) Civilian Conservation Corps
Jacob was born in Kalamazoo, Michigan on November 18, 1918
He grew up during the Great Depression and it was very difficult for him to find a job
once he had turned 17
Jacob signed up with the Civilian Conservation Corps for one year and was sent to Camp
Silver Creek
It was a very beautiful area and Jacob really enjoyed his time there
He often planted trees and also worked at the ranger station in the fire tower
At one point a girl scout camp caught on fire and it was a real mess; it took them 3 weeks
to put out the fire and clean the area up
Jacob signed up for another year with the CCC and was sent to a lumber jack camp in the
Upper Peninsula
Jacob then joined the National Youth Administration and went to Forestry School at
Michigan State University
The classes were only 16 weeks long and Jacob was still bored when he was finished, so
he signed up for another year in a CCC Camp in Grand Haven, Michigan
(12:15) Enlistment
There were rumors that the US would be getting involved in the war and Jacob did not
want to end up getting drafted
He had been under Army control in the CCC, so he was used to marching and drilling
every morning
Jacob enlisted for a term of 1 year in 1939 and would not be called up until 1941
He was sent to Fort Sheridan in Illinois where he trained for 2 weeks and then went
through more training in California with the Ordinance Department
�
Jacob was then sent to Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri for 1 week and then a staging area
in Virginia
(15:40) England
The men were supposed to go to Africa, but got orders at the last minute to stay behind
They waited in Virginia for 1 month and then took the USS Argentina to England
The trip only took 1 week and they followed a zig zag course with nice weather
They landed in Liverpool and then took over a GMC factory that they were going to use
as a supply storage facility
Jacob worked with the assembly and inspection of tanks, trucks, Jeeps, ambulances, and
anti-aircraft guns
They worked with the supply line in the factory for 2.5 years
(21:45) France
The men were called out of the factory shortly before D-Day in 1944
They were put on a Navy ship and brought to Normandy after the battle
They set up a supply depot on the beach and put up their tents on a base 2 miles from the
beach
Jacob took inventory on the beach every morning
He later received orders that he was to go through infantry training for 3 weeks
They were shipped in box cars through Belgium and Luxembourg, to Germany
(25:10) Germany
Jacob became part of the 78th Infantry “Lightning” Division, 310th Regiment, Company A
They were fighting back and forth with the Germans over control of a town that had a
dam in it; eventually the Germans surrendered
�
They moved along through the valleys, fighting along many rivers and taking small
towns on their way
They received orders that they were to capture a bridge over the Rhine River to stop the
Germans’ supply line
(31:50) Rhine River
They attached to the 9th Armored Division and went ahead to find the bridge they were
supposed to destroy
The Germans knew of their plans and were shooting at them and trying to block off their
way
The Armored Division began blowing up the bridge and it slowly began sinking on its
pillars
The engineers took out the demolition wires after the majority of the Americans had
crossed and the bridge was destroyed
All the time they were being shot at with rifles, machine guns, and artillery from the hills
(39:10) End of Service
They went North and found many German soldiers hiding in ditches; they took many
POWs
The men continued through Germany for 128 days taking more POWs and small towns
Jacob then found out that he had enough points to return home
Many of the men had enough points and they were all very excited and so sick of eating
food out of cans
They took trucks to Paris and then went to Camp Lucky Strike where they waited to be
shipped back to the US
Jacob had furlough in England for 14 days
(50:40) Reunions
�
After arriving back home Jacob had thought about going to Penn State for forestry, but
his wife and daughter missed him so much and convinced him to not go
He got acquainted with the 78th Infantry Division and went to many reunions with them
all over the country
On June 6, 1948 Jacob went through a D Day Reunion Tour in Europe
He spent 1 week on Omaha Beach where they was a big ceremony with the Queens of
Holland and England, Duke of Luxembourg, and the Presidents of the US, France, and
Prime Minister of Britain
There were many speeches and a parade with bands from all over Europe
Jacob also visited some cemeteries from WWII, traveled to Britain, Germany, and
Holland
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WestraJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Westra, Jacob (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Westra, Jacob
Description
An account of the resource
Jacob Westra was born in Kalamazoo, Michigan on November 18, 1918. He grew up during the Depression and was not able to find a job once he had graduated from high school. He joined the Civilian Conservation Corps and was sent to Camp Silver Creek where he worked in the ranger station for one year. Jacob really enjoyed working in the CCC and signed up for 2 more years until he enlisted in the Army in 1939. He was not called up to service until 1941 and went through basic training in Fort Sheridan Illinois. Jacob was then sent to England where they took over an old GMC factory and used it as a supply storage facility. He worked there for 2.5 years until right before D Day when Jacob joined the 78th Infantry "Lightning" Division. They traveled through France and Germany taking many small towns and POWs for months until many of the men earned enough points to return to the Unites States.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
McCauslin, Kelly (Interviewer)
Spring Lake District Library (Spring Lake, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-05-17
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4084378ac2a5eb6ee3f7b819905d24f0.mp4
e93c66fa5badca0536dd01613d4536d1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d414131540ed74fb9032e6338eee8fc.pdf
0c4220105c2cdda158740303267c176f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of Interviewee: Clyde Westra
Name of War: Vietnam War
Length of Interview: (01:36:50)
Pre-Enlistment
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Born in Grand Haven, MI in 1948 (1:50)
Attended Grand Haven Junior High, got interested in the Marine Corps at this
time (2:20)
Took a week off of school to make up his mind about quitting school and joining
the Marine Corps (3:15)
Ended up joining (3:20)
Marines appealed to him because of his brother in-law’s involvement in the Corps
(4:15)
Did not have to wait until he was 18 to join because of his score on the aptitude
test and his parents signed off (5:20)
Joined on January 27, 1965 (5:30)
Training
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Went to Detroit for the basic physical, then home for 2 days and off again to
California (5:45)
Flew into San Diego and went to the Marine Corps Recruitment Depot (MCRD)
(6:30)
Took the enlistment oath and 16 weeks of boot camp there (6:45)
Thought it was the worst possible thing in the world (7:05)
Day started at 5:30 am, and got done whenever the drill instructors decided to be
done (9:00)
Came home for 30 days after boot camp was over (11:50)
Already had orders to go back to Camp Pendleton, and knew he was being
shipped overseas (12:10)
Active Duty
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Two weeks after his leave, he received final orders to go to Okinawa (12:20)
Scored well enough on his tests that he was a Combat Engineer (12:50)
Was in Okinawa with an Engineer company for 4-8 weeks (13:15)
Was shipped to Vietnam (13:45)
Arrived in Vietnam via transport ship (14:25)
First duty station was at a resupply company in a secured area (14:45)
Stayed there for 6-8 months, training and doing support and logistics (15:15)
Moved to Danang, and was trained to be a radio operator (16:25)
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Life expectancy of a radio operator in combat is about 15 minutes (16:35)
Was attached to different outfits as a Helicopter Support Team Member (HST)
(17:00)
Would go out into the field and call in resupply operations, bombs, food,
whatever was needed for the outfit (17:30)
Also had to call in Medical Evacuations, which was not his favorite job (17:45)
Always two HST members tag teamed the radio, in case one was injured or killed
(18:55)
Saw all kinds of action: involved in all sorts of fighting (19:40)
Traveled the A Shau Valley at least 6 times, nicknamed it the Valley of Death
(19:45)
Carried a map with him, marked all the places they had been (20:00)
Would clear out the Valley, return home, but then something new would come up
(20:25)
During the Tet Offensive, he was sent to the city of Wei to set up an ammo dump
(20:45)
Was then sent to Khe Sanh during the seige of the city (21:00)
Was shelled for 77 days, nonstop (21:15)
When choppers were called for resupply, they wouldn’t land for fear of being
shelled (21:30)
The C-130’s wouldn’t land either, just slide their supplies out the back door and
fly away (21:45)
During the shelling, they would stay as far underground as possible (22:15)
Stayed armed at all times. When he started out in Vietnam, he carried an M-14
and a .45 caliber pistol (24:00)
Over time, he went from carrying the M-14 to the M-16, which he didn’t like
initially (24:40)
Never fully liked the gun (26:25)
Slept on the ground in the field, but slept in a cabin on a cot while on base (26:45)
Learned that war is mostly boredom, followed by 5 minutes of sheer terror
(28:00)
Would do anything they could to relieve the boredom (28:15)
Played cards, had different clubs you could join, or just writing letters home,
cleaning gear, etc (28:20)
Could go into the field at any moment, night or day (29:50)
Gear was always packed for 2-3 days (30:15)
Carried his pack, weapon and a 25 pound radio (30:40)
R&R
•
•
•
Was in-country for 26 months (31:20)
Was ready to go home at 13 months, but had a 6 month involuntary extension
because he was a radio operator (31:45)
Packed up to go home again, but got extended again because he was a radio
operator (33:00)
�•
•
•
•
•
•
Put in for R&R to go to Australia, then to Hawaii (34:10)
His dad met him in Hawaii (35:50)
Flew into Hilo, where his dad met him at the gangway (36:15)
Tried to rent a Camaro convertible, but he wasn’t 21 years old yet (37:45)
His father rented the car for him (38:20)
Won a Purple Heart, Bronze Star, Vietnam Campaign and Service ribbons (39:00)
Purple Heart
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Purple Heart was from Operation Swift (39:30)
Was in the A Shau Valley, and came to a rocky outcrop and the VietCong started
mortar attacks when they got there (39:40)
Ended up separated from his unit when everybody ran for cover (40:40)
Was hit by shrapnel, and took off through a hedge (41:25)
Found 26 of his unit, finally found the rest of his unit (41:50)
Despite the medic’s order, he tried to stay with his radio (42:30)
Medic injected him with morphine and he followed orders (42:55)
Found one of his good friends dying with the rest of the wounded (43:45)
Was lifted out on the first chopper out of the area, then spent the next 4 months at
the 12th US Air Force Hospital in Chu Lai(45:55)
Doctors stopped counting at 17 holes full of shrapnel (46:45)
Bronze Star
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Setting up a new base, had trenches and tents set up (47:50)
Vietcong started shelling from the hills (48:05)
Had a brand new lieutenant who was standing in the middle of the compound
(48:20)
Clyde jumped out of his hole, tackled the lieutenant and brought him back to his
hole (48:30)
Received the Bronze Star for his actions (48:45)
Was a TAV for a Vietnamese unit (49:00)
Never had a whole lot of interactions with Vietnamese people, but generally
found them to be friendly (54:10)
INTERVIEW ENDED, PICKED UP LATER
•
•
•
•
•
Some drug use in the Marines, not as much as the movies would have one
believed (49:30)
Could buy beer in secured area once shift was over (50:45)
Had a beer ration of 6 beers (51:10)
Cigarettes were very common, at least 90% of enlisted men smoked (52:00)
Occasionally knew exactly what was going on, but sometimes would only be
given the information necessary to proceed with his mission (55:50)
�•
•
•
In Danang, the USO came to put on shows (56:50)
Favorite show was from Martha Raye, who had a high fever at the time (57:00)
Loved listening to rock and roll while in country (58:20)
Post-Service
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Came home, got a job (59:30)
Started hanging out with a motorcycle club, drank too much (59:50)
A friend called him out on his change in attitude (1:00:50)
During his second marriage on a home improvement project, almost hit his
granddaughter with a hammer (1:03:20)
Came back the next day, but has no recollection where he went (1:04:30)
Wife suggested that he find help (1:05:20)
This occurred 20 years after he was discharged (1:05:30)
Started at the DAV, but it wasn’t helping too much (1:06:20)
Then went to the Veterans Center, got the help he needed (1:06:35)
They sent him to Chicago to a PTSD clinic for 35 days straight (1:08:40)
Lived with 26 other veterans with PTSD (1:09:10)
At the end of the clinic, started to realize what living with PTSD means (1:13:45)
Continued with counseling at the Disabled Veteran’s Administration (DAV)
(1:17:00)
Has learned to control his rage (1:17:15)
VA came out with a newsletter wanting Vietnam veterans tested for Agent
Orange (1:18:40)
VA later listed illnesses that stem from Agent Orange, of which he has one
(1:19:20)
Also has heart disease, poor eyesight, neuropathy of his legs stemming from
Agent Orange (1:22:15)
Has had some issues with the VA, but generally a good experience (1:22:40)
Never took advantage of the GI Bill, and belongs to the VFW and the American
Legion (1:30:00)
Feels his military experience was both good and bad (1:31:35)
Made him grow up, maybe too fast. Gained knowledge and got to travel (1:31:50)
Only bad part was spending 26 months in Vietnam (1:32:15)
Feels that everyone should spend some time in the military, but it takes the right
kind of person to remain in a combat zone (1:34:40)
Would do it again if he had to (1:35:10)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WestraC
Title
A name given to the resource
Westra, Clyde (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Westra, Clyde
Description
An account of the resource
Clyde Westra was born in Grand Haven, MI in 1948. He dropped out of high school to join the Marine Corps at the age of 17. Clyde was initially trained and worked in Vietnam as a Combat Engineer, but was shipped to Danang and trained to be a radio operator. He served in Vietnam for 26 months, including at Khe Sanh and in the A Shau Valley. For his service in Vietnam, he recieved a Purple Heart, and Bronze Star. After Clyde came home, he was diagnosed with PTSD and other illnesses as a result of exposure to Agent Orange.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Moore, Deb (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-06-17
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bd16c2d85fd0a20bb957cfd49ae09996.mp4
0a9991351cb79c1257a2073706ed9906
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5afcc72d25cbeca645a656d04567b0bd.pdf
a308ee048f290252ed586e3d5a08c9cc
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Virgil Westdale
World War II
Total Time: 2:10:10
Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (0:00:40)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
His father was born in Japan, and immigrated to the United States because his
stepbrother gave him money to do so in 1906 when he was 16. He started in San
Francisco, California, moved to Denver, Colorado, then to Ohio after he married
Virgil’s mother, then on to Indiana.
Born in Millersburg, Indiana.
Family raised peppermint in Indiana.
His father then bought a farm in Michigan where they raised alfalfa.
There were 5 children in his family all together.
Finished high school.
Played football in high school.
Worked in trucking, and then attended Western Michigan College beginning in
1940 and Graduated after World War II in 1949.
Obtained his private pilot’s license in 1942.
Joined the War Training Service in 1942.
(0:28:40) Legally changed his name to “Westdale” from “Nishimura” in 1942.
Participated in air acrobatics in South Bend, Indiana as well.
(0:30:10) Participated in a aerial acrobatics tour around the United States
Lost his pilots license due to racial prejudice
(0:33:30) Taught ground school before he went into the service.
Training (0:35:06)
• Went to Romulus Field, Michigan to join the Air Corps.
• He got his license back in November 1941.
• His training was very intense. For instance, he took commercial and instrument
flying at the same time.
• He took commercial flying because he wanted to become an instructor, and this
required commercial flying.
• He was chosen to be a flight instructor after training.
Active Duty (0:39:58)
•
He instructed for 3 or 4 months before he got a letter stating that he was being
transferred to the Army and that he would be given the rank of Private, which was
essentially a demotion.
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
(0:42:29) He was placed in the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, which consisted
entirely of Japanese-Americans.
(0:45:45) Had basic training with the unit and then went to Unit Training.
He learned to operate the M1, BAR, and Flamethrower.
Their unit ate a lot of rice. Many of the men in his unit were from Hawaii, until
the 100th Battalion unit split off.
(0:52:30) Right before he was shipped overseas, his sister wrote a letter to Eleanor
Roosevelt requesting that he be transferred to some pilot position. He then
received notice that he was being transferred to the Artillery Battalion attached to
the 442nd to fly the observation aircraft for the Battalion.
(0:54:40) He was then selected to be in the fire direction center, because it turned
out he could not be a pilot due to his rank.
(0:59:00) He was shipped over to Europe in 1944 on a Liberty ship with around
500 men. They were in a very large convoy.
(1:01:45) They landed in Brindisi, Italy, and moved to Anzio, and then to Naples.
(1:04:15) They move through Rome, where the group in front of them
encountered some resistance.
(1:06:35) Their unit first entered combat just after leaving Rome. He was usually
a stretch back from the line. His job was to work in the fire coordination center,
where they would receive and give coordinates for firing artillery.
They would usually shoot smoke shells into an area to gauge where a target was
in relation to wind.
(1:12:09) He was engaged in Italy and then were moved to Southern France,
landing in Marseilles, France.
(1:14:00) While still in Italy, he was involved in an assault on Hill 140 where his
artillery unit participated in a bombardment, which killed all of the 120 Germans
that were on the hill.
(1:22:10) They were moved to Southern France from Italy specifically for the
invasion of Germany.
The 100th Battalion had so many casualties they earned the nickname “The Purple
Heart Battalion.”
One of the main things that he noticed when he moved through France was that it
seemed to be a cleaner place than Italy.
(1:29:05) He remembers moving through France being very difficult.
(1:30:55) His unit fought to free a battalion of the 141st Regiment when they
became lost and cut off from the rest of the Army. It took them 4 days total to
break through, and it cost them 800 casualties.
(1:39:40) Right after they broke through and saved the 141st, they continued on
without a break.
He did get sick on one occasion with flu-like symptoms.
On one occasion while he was ill, a house he was staying in was hit by artillery
fire..
(1:48:10) Oftentimes, they would fire so fast that captured Germans would ask
where the automatic artillery was that they were using.
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
(1:49:35) They were eventually brought back from the line, to the Nice area,
because of the losses they suffered rescuing the lost battalion. They stayed there
for the winter of 1944-1945.
(1:52:25) The unit was split in two at this point, with the artillery going into
Germany and the infantry going into Italy.
(1:52:45) He was sent to Worms, Germany where he crossed the Rhine on a
pontoon bridge.
(1:54:30) They fought through Germany however the fighting was more sporadic
than they had been previously used to. They encountered heavy fighting at times,
because the Germans saw this as their last stand.
(1:56:20) There was a moratorium on talking to German citizens over the age of
12, however he got to know a 9 year old girl, her mother, and her father, who was
a regular infantryman in the German Army.
He was hospitalized for some time, and he was supposed to be sent home, but he
didn’t want to, and left the hospital to return to the unit.
(1:59:19) His unit worked as part of the occupation force in Germany after
hostilities had ceased. His unit was also sent home without him, and he lost touch
with many of the people in his unit. He stayed on until late November 1945 after
his unit had left in late September 1945.
Post-War (2:08:40)
•
Worked as a Chemical Engineer after the War, and he also worked at the TSA. He
is also working on an autobiography.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WestdaleV
Title
A name given to the resource
Westdale, Virgil (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Westdale, Virgil
Description
An account of the resource
Virgil Westdale was born Virgil Nishimura in Millersburg, Indiana and served in World War II. He was trained as a pilot but because his father was Japanese he was demoted to an infantryman and placed in the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, which consisted primarily of Japanese-Americans. He worked in the Fire Direction Center for his unit, and spent time in combat in Europe. His unit also worked in occupied Germany after combat.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-05-28
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives