2 24 1541 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eaa7fa4d20ae63d3d7bd0709ecdc5233.mp4 63b10382748c085f22efef9488bfbfbc https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bfb05c56b1dd255e386fe86c5a590ef3.pdf 4c4fa70ebed4df3f89379b5f0484a0e3 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Interviewee’s Name: Susan Strum Length of Interview: 1:04:25 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman Interviewer: This interview is a co-production of WKTV Voices, and Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project, and the Silversides Museum in Muskegon, Michigan and we are in fact on the campus of the Silversides Museum today conducting this interview. We’re talking today with Susan Strum of Muskegon, Michigan, so Sue, why don’t you start off with some background and to begin with: where and when were you born? Okay, I was born in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada in 1951 to a Canadian father and my mother was a US citizen. She was at that point in her late 20’s and for those times was considered a spinster, so she and her mother were traveling by train around Canada visiting various relatives to see if anybody knew, you know, anybody who might be eligible. And my parents actually met at a tea leaf reading. He had taken his mother and her friends, and she had taken her mother and her cousin, and you know they’re both apparently “I’m only here because I brought them” and, you know, the rest is, as they say, history. They came back and forth, mom was, you know, a school teacher in Michigan and he was an engineering student working for the phone company in Edmonton, and after back and forth for a few years they ended up getting married in Muskegon. Moved back to Edmonton where mom said goodbye to all of her friends and her bridge club that she’d been in from high school, and off she went 2,000 miles away. Well, in 1953 we ended up moving to Owosso, Michigan with the phone company. Edmonton was, at that time, one of the largest cities in North America with the dial telephone system outside New York City, so everyone who was looking at putting in dial telephone systems was, you know, stealing people from New York and Edmonton to various places and with mom having family, especially elderly parents in Michigan, that was the best we could do and by 1955 we were in Muskegon, mom was back on her bridge club, I started first grade in North Muskegon elementary school and I graduated from there in 1969. Interviewer: Okay. Now, as you’re kinda going through high school things in this country are getting kinda interesting. �That puts it mildly! Interviewer: You’ve had a civil rights movement, you’ve got the counter-culture thing, you’ve got the war, a lot of this stuff and all the craziness in ‘68. How much of that were you paying attention to? (3:12) Paid a fair amount of attention to it, but it was not… didn’t really seem to affect us, North Muskegon had at that point and probably still does a reputation of to sending 99% of its students on to college, so, you know, we weren’t terribly—the guys weren’t terribly worried about the draft. We followed it, had a school teacher in 7th grade who, you know, to dismay of 97% of the class said we had to watch the nightly news and write reports on it, and my cousin and I are going, “We’re gonna get credit for what we do any how?” Our parents, we always watched the news so this was like, this is a bonus, so. You know, we were aware of it but, you know, it really—you know, North Muskegon to this day only has 3-4,00 people and it’s a mostly doctor/lawyer/indian chief zone. It was out there, we ready about it, we knew people who went. By that point we actually also knew someone who had died, so you know there was a gold star family in North Muskegon which, thankfully I believe is still one of the only gold star families. But, no, just really… we knew it was there, but… Interviewer: Yeah, and since you were a woman and not subject to the draft anyway. Right. Interviewer: It would make less of a difference. Okay, so what do you do after you finish high school? I enrolled in Muskegon Community College and discovered that I really didn’t have the… attention span needed to, [you know, pay attention.] I had more fun playing poker with some of the veterans and active in student government, I was the treasurer of student government the second year I was there, and so as a result my grades didn’t quite meet muster. The employment, you know, rate in Michigan was absolutely abysmal, there was very little opportunity and so I said, “I need to do something and right now college is not it.” So I started looking at the military, looked at all four branches, pretty well immediately crossed out the Army and Marine Corps as they only offered a two-year opportunity and with the two-year opportunity you get very little in the way of training. Interviewer: Okay, so they weren’t offering longer—cause if men enlisted they could enlist for longer hitches, but that wasn’t being offered to you? �I don’t know whether they, you know, the Marines and the Army basically were pretty much two-year, you know, active duty and then you probably—especially the men had, you know, others who were a six-year commitment, you know, because of the draft. But the Air Force and Navy… Navy required 3 years, Air Force four years but offered far more, you know, opportunity and I ended up, you know, joining the Navy, you know, because at three years but, you know, in a clear twist of fate I ended up extending to go to school and ended up spending just about four years in the Navy, so. You know, it really didn’t, you know, make that much of a difference in the long run. Interviewer: All right. Now at the point when you were enlisting, now what year was this? (6:36) 1971. Interviewer: Okay, and what was your citizenship status then? At that point I had dual-citizenship because my father being Canadian, having been a Canadian citizen, born in Canada. My mother a US citizen, so for years both countries recognized, you know, our citizenship either one depending on where we were and we just, you know, had friends and family in both places. We just went back and forth across the border, you know, and it wasn’t until my enlistment, you know, paperwork was fairly well underway and we were starting to discuss departure dates that the recruiter was brought up short with the realization that I needed to be a US citizen, but having been in this country since I was 3 it wasn’t any real big deal. Interviewer: But having dual citizenship, that wasn’t accepted? Was not acceptable for women. Men could join and use their time in service to become a citizen, but they said, “You’ve lived here 17 out of 20 years, you know, what are the chances of you going back to Canada?” which turned out to be somewhat ironic later on but because I’d been here as long it was a fairly simple process. I had ended up with a private meeting with a federal judge in Grand Rapids who swore me in and I was able to make the original, you know, deadline we had anticipated for enlistment. Interviewer: All right. So, where did you go then for your training? Everyone from, you know, Michigan is processed then and I assume now through Detroit, so, you know, they sent us over in buses to Detroit where we spent the night, we were sworn in the next morning, given our orders and sent weekly by plane to Washington, D.C. and then a Navy bus picked us up and took us to Brainbridge, Maryland. �Interviewer: All right. Now, as you’re going through this processing are men and women together? Or do they separate women out at some point? As soon as we got on the plane we were separate. Women’s training back then was completely separate from men, we saw men in the mess hall and during the church service on Sunday, we were not allowed to talk to them, they were not allowed to talk to us. We were told to consider men as trees and everyone knows how much in love with, you know, trees women are so, you know… Interviewer: Okay. So, back when you were processing in Detroit, for instance, or that kind of thing. We were all just, you know, lined up together and then they just, you know, parceled us out to the various, you know, places. You know, lot of the guys probably got back on buses and went to Great Lakes or, you know, potentially could have gone to Orlando which was very real for men at that point, I believe. Interviewer: Yeah. And then San Diego otherwise, probably. Yes, that’s right. Interviewer: But they’re farther west. Okay. But in your case, okay, Bainbridge, Maryland. Where in Maryland is that? (9:39) It is in the middle of nowhere. It is still apparently in the middle of nowhere. I’ve had by chance recently connected with a girl who actually was into a Facebook group for former WAVES, connected with a women who had actually been in my company and she has been back to Bainbridge in a couple of occasions, that she lives in the area and she says it’s still as nowhere as it was then. Interviewer: As a naval base is it actually on Chesapeake Bay somewhere, or is it inland? It doesn’t exist as the base anymore. It has not for many years. It was near Havre de Grace and someplace else, but you know, we were there we had no opportunity really to, you know, if we went someplace else they took us in a bus and it really didn’t matter cause we weren’t going on our own. Interviewer: Yeah, but that’s sort of the upper end of Chesapeake Bay and there’s not really that much there. �No, the closest city of any size is Lancaster, Pennsylvania where they took us during one of the weeks where, you know, to pick up new things that we needed still for our, you know, required uniform. You know, underwear, you know slips, etc. that we hadn’t brought with us or they just didn’t have, you know, available on base. Interviewer: Alright. Describe basically the training process itself: when you get there what happens to you? (11:03) Well, it was pretty strange because we apparently got there on Halloween. We got there late, everyone else had gone to bed, you know, luggage did not come with us it disappeared some place, arrived a week or so later so we wore the same clothes for a week. Never did wear that outfit again, and I had loved it so much before. But, you know, we’re just sitting on the stairs in the main barracks known as Hunter Hall while they sorted us out and figured where we were supposed to go since we were all assigned to, you know, the few of us that were there I don’t remember how many of us there were, were assigned to various companies and they gave us a sucker. Well, this is pretty strange, you know… well little did I know that was one of the last sweets I was going to see for several weeks. It ended up making a rather larger impression on me than I, you know, simple little lollipop with a little paper hoop in it would do in any other circumstance, but eventually got us sorted out and… the main barracks for women, as I said, was called Hunter Hall and it held, I believe, 8 companies of women. Since they were getting a—we didn’t know this but, you know, in highsight, you know, they were getting ready to transfer the women’s training to Orlando, which they did in July of 1972 and so knowing there would be some lag time they kind of multiplied the number of companies going through ahead of time and put two companies in a barracks that had not been used probably since World War II. It was indeed a World War II barracks that was two floors, it was condemned while we were living in it, when the company upstairs moved out we thought we might, you know, have won a lottery and got to use their bathrooms and laundry and we were told it wasn’t safe to go up there and if there was a fire to don’t worry about the exits, try and, you know, go out the windows. Just remember to go out the windows on the street side because it was built on a ravine and there was a two story drop on the other side. Fortunately we never had that, but you know, it was winter and it was a cold winter for Maryland and the furnace kept going out, the water heater kept going out and, you know, they issued you one blanket. It was a little gray wool blanket and it was your fire blanket you were supposed to use in case of fire, but it had to be folded just so. Well, when there’s no heat, you know, there was like do I unfold this thing? It’s not worth the hassle. Our company commander, to her credit, did try to get us additional blankets so we could keep that one in its pristine shape, but she was unsuccessful so we spent a great many nights sleeping in our winter, you know, what they called great coats which is a wool overcoat, over our pajamas just to try and, you know, curled up trying to stay warm. You know, while the people in Hunter �Hall had, you know, lots of, you know, hot water and, you know, heat and all kinds of things, so. We were special, we were tough. Interviewer: Alright. And we did get some special, you know, considerations because of it. Interviewer: So basically the group that you came in with, did you all get put into that new barracks or were you split up? (14:42) No, we all got split up. I’m not sure that there was anyone besides me, you know, that went into, you know, that company. Interviewer: So you were just lucky. Yes. Interviewer: Alright. Story of my life. Interviewer: So, what does the actual training consist of? Training at that time was mostly, you know, paperwork learning, you know, the various ranks, how to march. It wasn’t a whole lot of physical training because at that point most of the assignments available for women were office related with the exception of corpsmen or dental techs, although literally daily new positions were coming open. Interviewer: So they were starting to— We were learning about the various professions and a great deal of that was taken doing aptitude testing, you know, what we were capable of and then therefore what jobs we could be assigned, you know, once we, you know, graduated. Interviewer: Cause I guess this wasn’t when the—of course over the course of the 70s they open up a lot of opportunities for women in the military, so was this kind of the beginning end of that, when more things would be coming potentially available? Very much so. Very much so. When I, you know, I qualified for a number of, you know, categories that, you know, many women were not eligible for and some that were but did not �have any vacancies at that time. So they said, “You know, we’re just going to put you in the next most qualified,” you know, “Training opportunity there is, but keep an eye open we’re gonna note it in your file that when and if one of these other opportunities comes open, you know, we encourage you to apply for it. Cause chances are if there’s an opening you’ll get it. Especially because by that point you will have some prior service.” So I ended up as a result being trained as a dispersing clerk, I went to a training center in San Diego and trained there for… again, approximately 10 weeks. But at that point, you know, once we finished basic training, you know, men had ceased to become trees and they were back to being human beings again and we had classes with guys, we could talk to them on a regular basis, we could, you know, associate with them. Interviewer: Okay. I’m just gonna back up into the Bainbridge part of things for a little bit. Sure. Interviewer: What kind of women were in your company, what were their backgrounds or…? (17:12) We had everything from, cause you had to be 18, so we had, you know, women who were 18 on up to, you know, some were in their mid-20s and just from, you know, all various backgrounds. The girl who actually had the bunk below me was salvation army and she brought her bugle, and so once they found out about that the unit who was on night watch would come in about 5 minutes early and wake her up—though they always seemed to wake me up instead! It’s like, “No, lower bunk!” And she would get up and she would blow revelry. Well it gave me a little bit of—it, you know, gave those people in our little cubicle a bit of a heads up so we could, you know, hit the ground, you know, we were running. Interviewer: And when they do that was there a sort of set of things everybody sort of has to do XYZ within a certain number of minutes, so you had the advanced warning in waking up, that was helpful? Yes. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and what sort of people were training you? Oh, we had the old bus, it was all women, first class petty officers of various gradings. My company commander was the aviation store keeper, I don’t remember the others but they were always first, occasionally second class petty officer in training, but usually first class or chief petty officers and of course then the officers commanding, but again it was all female. �Interviewer: Okay. And how did they treat you? They treated us very well except for the food. The food was absolutely horrible and almost everybody got food poisoning and instead of worrying about gaining weight pretty much everybody lost weight, a lot of weight. Interviewer: So much for the reputation of the Navy having better food. Oh they had much better food other places, they just didn’t have it in Bainbridge. Interviewer: Alright, And so how long did you spend in Bainbridge? It was approximately 10 weeks. Interviewer: And then from there you went out to San Diego? Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And what did the training there consist of? (19:14) Training there consisted of primarily using—how to calculate payroll, how to use, you know, a calculator. Some of them they had electronic calculators, some of them were behemoth mechanical monsters that had probably been in use since war two. Some of us distinctly used our heads to figure it out until we got caught and said, “Oh, you have to use the machines.” So it was just kind of a repetition, this is what you do, you know, if they go on leave; this is how you process the, you know, various scenarios of pay, of leave time, sick time, if they get transferred this is what you have to do, etc. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you spend training there? That was, again approximately I think it was, I said about 10 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. And were there men in these classes now? Yeah, oh yes. Yeah. The majority were men. Interviewer: And what kind of dynamic was there between the men and the women in a class like that? �Mostly, you know, helping and sharing. We’re all in this boat, we’re all in—pretty much for the most part—all need to do it. So it was just, if you help me I’ll help you because everybody had their own strengths and weaknesses and yeah, we were all in this together to get our company, you know, through to graduation. Interviewer: All right. And then did you get to go off base in San Diego? We did, mostly, you know, we did some exploring, you know, Balboa Park. You know, the beach. Biggest thing was there was Disney, you know, buses that would run up there, you know, especially on weekends and back then they had the old e-ticket type things. So you bought, you know, you got your entry sheet along with a whole bunch of coupons and, you know, what you didn’t use you brought back, you know, it’s kind of put in a pile and then so somebody else would come and they’d take this group of coupons with them, and they’d have to buy the entry in it but then, you know, you would just use and then you bring it back and just, you know, it went on until some poor sucker when they went to the general admission was stuck with a whole bunch of coupons that didn’t work, but uh… That was, you know, the big thing because, you know, we were from all over the country most of us had never been to California, you know. We’d come out, especially those of us coming out of Bainbridge where it was miserable cold and icy and, you know, being in the warmth in San Diego in February and it was really pretty wonderful. Interviewer: Alright. Now once you complete that course what do they do with you? Well, if you graduated they shipped you out. It seemed like everybody who graduated got transferred someplace else and those who failed got to stay in California. But nobody was willing to intentionally fail, and we were all mostly new to this stuff and just, you know, but ended up going from there to a station in Charleston, South Carolina. Which really was a wonderful place but, you know, it wasn’t San Diego by any stretch of the imagination and there were, you know, probably oh a half-dozen, dozen of us who all [were] from various training who met in San Diego all ended up in Charleston and we used to get together in the Enlisted Club, you know. I think we wore out the jukebox playing California Dreaming by the The Mamas & The Papas and we’d just sit there and play pool and, you know, sob that we weren’t still where it was nice and wonderful and warm, you know. Yes, we were still with someplace where it was gorgeous with plantations and, you know, wonderful things but, you know, it just, you know… for kids, most of us in our, you know, late teens and early twenties, you know, it just didn’t have the things that, you know, San Diego’s surf culture, you know, seemed to offer. Interviewer: Alright. So what was your actual job? (23:19) �My job there was handling payroll, I started out handling payrolls for submarines in the main office which actually was stationed off base. There was a fairly large facility and we had, as I said, submarines. Back then the submarine stations in Charleston were some of the early nuclear subs and they had what we call blue and gold crew; so you’d have a crew that was out at sea for 6 months, crew in training on land for 6 months, and then this, you know, the sub would come in, get refitted, the other crew would take off. And it did that for several months and then I got transferred, promoted, I’m not quite sure exactly what but to a small office on base where I handled payroll for minesweepers, and they pretty much stayed put the entire time. They thought they were pretty lucky and for the most part they were, although, you know, our office there was a one experimental cement minesweeper which was more just outside our office. Which meant we had very little daylight, you know, and the minute the sun went over, you know, noon it went behind this enormous cement thing and we were in the shade all the time and, you know, of course the Vietnam War is winding down. Things were looking up, we’ve managed to miss out on everything. Little did they know, little did we know, the orders came through to send all the east coast minesweepers to Haiphong Harbor to clean out the mines in North, you know, Vietnam. Interviewer: Yeah, it’s a part of the peace settlement or whatever. Yes. Interviewer: Yeah. And so their leisurely, you know, tours of duty came to a fairly abrupt end for reasons that, to this day and this happened in 1973, and I still don’t know why this many years later filling out the paperwork required somebody with a security clearance. I’m the only one in the office with the security clearance. I’m a naturalized citizen and the only girl in the office and I’m the only one with the security clearance, so I fill out all this paperwork. Well, the Navy, and I’m assuming the other branches had similar, had a five digit code, you know, that was attached to the name of whatever place you were going to be or, you know, if you were in transit there was a separate code for these. Well, there was no code for enemy territory, so that part of the paperwork all had to be left blank. So I fill the stuff out, well, to back up slightly: while I’m stationed down there the rating aerographer makes, which is weather observer forecasters, which they had originally hoped that I would be able to become, opened up. So, following orders from previous I applied for it and was accepted, you know, to even become an aerographer's mate. But it meant an automatic change from a seaman rating to an airman rating, but I still kept my rank as a dispersing clerk. So instead of being a DKSN I was a DKAN which does not exist, except on me. So, you know, we get all this paperwork done, Lieutenant Commander looks it over and everything’s fine, we send it off, sometime later I don’t remember exactly when the phone rings, he picks it up, next thing I know, “Susan, there’s an admiral so-and-so from Washington wanting �to talk to you.” And I’m like, “I don’t know any admiral so-as-do, I don’t know any admirals at all.” “Well he asked for you.” So I go up there, I’m literally standing at attention next to Lieutenant Commander’s office which is where the phone was and he, you know, this man who says he’s admiral we have no way of verifying is reading me out for this horrible job I had done at this paperwork and this fictitious, you know, signature and I’m going “What?” so I had explained to him that I was in the process of transferring between being a dispersing clerk and an aerographer’s mate and the change in rank had come through before the change in rating and I was told I would still wear my dispersing clerk emblems as a dispersing clerk until my orders were cut and I left Charleston to go for further training, at which time that I would just simply become an airman. He bought that, but then he’s still fussing about the paperwork and there’s no codes. I don’t know who this person is, you know, I’ve got a security clearance which I’m not about to divulge, my lieutenant commander is staring at me and so I’m trying to think of way to hint to this gentleman how he can come up with the answer himself, and I realized from being a fairly neurotic newspaper reader that the biggest thing in all the papers lately had been, you know, emptying Haiphong Harbor of mines and so, you know, I just finally, you know, “Do you happen to have today’s newspaper handy? Please humor me a minute, would you please look. Tell me what the headlines are?” Well the headlines were “The Removal of Mines from Haiphong Harbor” and the lightbulb went off, and he immediately became very apologetic, you know, and said that the paperwork was great and he wished me, you know, the best wishes on my future endeavors and hung up and I’m standing there shaking like a leaf. And my Lieutenant Commander looked at us like, “You look like you need a drink.” and I said, “I think I need two.” Interviewer: So basically, the other people in your office didn’t know what the assignment was going to be, or you didn’t know whether they knew it or not? (30:01) I don’t think they did. Interviewer: Okay. I’m not sure. Part of it was a—there’s somewhat of a—I was, you know, again I was the only girl in the office. We had, most of the rest of the office were Filipino, for some reason becoming a dispersing clerk was one of the easiest ratings for them to get into and for the most part they all seemed to excel at it. But there was still a bit of a language barrier and for reasons that I can only guess our first class petty officer, who I would have thought would have been… it was a black gentleman, who for whatever reason could not get a clearance. So that left me and Lieutenant Commander, and the Lieutenant Commander’s not gonna do the paperwork. Interviewer: But in the meantime I guess, did you have anybody else hearing you talk except the Lieutenant Commander? �Oh yes, no, the whole office could hear. Interviewer: Okay, so you couldn’t just blab these things in front of that audience. No, because, you know, plus I didn’t know him and this man says he’s an admiral but I don’t know that it isn’t somebody trying to test me to see whether I’m divulging this information or not. You know, so it was. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. And the initial stuff that he was fussing about, that was because you had listed your new creative rank? Yeah, I had signed it as a DKAN, you know, rather than a DKSN, you know, this part of the paperwork on where they would be going to was blank. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So it was just kind of a multitude of, you know, compounding errors. Interviewer: Now, did the minesweepers leave before you did? Oh yes, they left, yeah. They were leaving as I was processing their paperwork. Interviewer: Alright. And did the cement minesweeper go away? (31:58) It did! We actually, I managed to see a little bit of sunshine before I departed. Interviewer: Alright, now what… one of the things about Charleston, you know, you’re in the south and it’s now made it into the 70’s but there are aspects of segregation, discrimination that kind of last a long time. Did you notice any racial issues at all? No, not at all, again we basically associated with, you know, other people, you know, we worked with and the women’s barracks were actually right next to the Naval hospital. They had actually been women's officer quarters up until sometime, I don’t know where they, you know, I mentioned they probably ended up giving them an allowance to, you know, have housing off base so they then turned it over to enlisted and we only used, you know, a small portion of the building but, you know, it was for enlisted persons, you know, it was, you know, it was kind of heaven. You know, if you’ve gone from sharing with 70 women in basic training to, you know, 4 women while you’re in a school and now you’ve got a room to yourself that you share an adjoining bath with somebody if that room happens to be filled. There were a few of us, enough of us there, that most of us there had bathrooms and rooms completely to ourselves. �Interviewer: When do you go out into the community, I guess, is the question. I guess we usually went with the people we were with. We went, you know, there really wasn’t, you know, I mean the bases provided pretty much all the entertainment and everything you needed. Go off base was usually to go, you know, one of the fellas that I, you know, where we stayed at the time had a motorcycle and we’d go out and go off on a motorcycle ride but usually we rode with, you know, somebody else who was also in the Navy. We really didn’t have too many opportunities. Now my parents did come and visit me a number of times and we went out and explored, you know, Charleston and some of the plantations, but to be honest I didn’t see any overt signs of racism until I was working in a planning office in Lake County, Florida in 1995 where, sadly, my supervisor pointed out that if you looked you could still see where “Blacks Only” had been painted over on the water fountain, and that was just… you know, that was sad and sickening. To think that in that day and age someone could still be proud of it, and proud of the fact that we had a former, you know, imperial wizard in Lake County. Interviewer: Alright. So I’m gonna go back now to your training. So, how long then did you spend in Charleston? I spent about a year in total there. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and now do you get your new rating and then you have to go to school for that? Yes. Absolutely. That school was in Lakehurst, New Jersey which is… you know, about halfway between Philadelphia and Atlantic City, a little further north than that. It’s where the Hindenburg crashed and the hanger, you know, that was used for the Hindenburg and other blimps is still, you know, was still there in the 80’s and I understand is still there. I’m assuming, and now it as a historic preservation designation to protect it, but it’s just unbelievable to picture the scale, you know, of the blimp until you see the hanger. Interviewer: Cause the blimp would fit inside it. (35:57) Yes! Most of it would fit in, the tail oftentimes didn’t, but when my dad found out I was going to Lakers he was just, he was so excited. He had a recording of various events in history and, you know, he dug it out and he played a copy of the recording of the gentleman who was covering the landing, it was the first landing of the season and, you know, the classic “Oh, the humanity!” and just to see it for real… I mean today it still sends chills up my spine. I got to know one of the base photographers and I have four copies of original, you know, photographs of the Hindenburg while it was crashing. They said, “You can take anything you want as long as you don’t take the �last one or the negative.” Those have been proudly hung in pretty much every apartment I’ve had and are, you know, it’s horrible but it’s exciting and it’s history. And I could say I’ve actually been there, I’ve been in the hanger, I’ve been in the back of the hanger and stayed in the back of the hanger. While I was there they had a big airshow with the Blue Angels and the Blue Angels were doing some practice runs, and one of them crashed and the pilot was killed, and one of the women from our barracks who was permanently stationed there happened to be on duty that day and had to go out and take the pictures of the, you know, of the scene and she was naturally, extremely shook up and so we took turns literally staying with her 24 hours cause she did, you know, she says, “If I go to sleep I see it again.” And so when they, you know, encouraged us students to help out with this thing and we’re all going, “We’ll help but we’re going to be in the back, we don’t want to see, you know, we don’t want to risk seeing another plane crash.” You know, they didn’t have any plane crashes but, you know. You see four go over and three come back and your gut tells you, you know, something’s wrong and then the alarms start going off and, you know, so… Interviewer: Okay. So what else goes on, what action was going on at base besides training people for your job? There was, it was actually a, you know, there was, you know, a station there. We weren’t the only people being trained there, I don’t remember what the other training was but there was an actual duty station. It, Lakehurst, abuts, is it McCoy—it’s a big Air Force base just, you know, adjacent to it and I want to say there’s an army facility there too and so they did all kinds of, you know, joint maneuvers and when I went back up in the late 80’s, mid 80’s, to Philadelphia for graduate school, I took time and drove out there and at that time, and from what I’ve heard from other people, the base is now and has been for many years a top-secret facility and… you know, there’s basically a place where you can turn around at the gate and, you know, if they’re not busy they’ll talk to you and, you know, yeah I was stationed here once upon a time and all those buildings are long gone but, you know, the hanger is still there and you can see it from the road but beyond that, you know. They have super top-secret clearance well beyond anything I ever, you know, had. Interviewer: Alright. So what did the school consist of? (40:03) School consists of teaching you various cloud-types, precipitation types, everything from rain to snow to sleet to hail to hurricanes to, you know, tsunamis. Various weather patterns, you know, what various winds mean, how to plot them on a map and then how to make sense of it what you’ve got the information on a map, you know, and just every hour observations are required to throughout the entire, you know, not only the Naval system but the entire meteorological, you know, world and back then, once you did it you took your observation, you put it in your log book, put it on your maps and then someone else usually had to be—you’d take turns to do it, �there’s always at least two people in the office, print it up on a teletype machine, you know, one finger at a time or so and send it out so that everybody else knew what you had so they could add it to theirs and that was how we developed, you know, an idea whether fronts were coming through, we had some very very basic satellite images that, you know, sometimes you can see something and you know sometimes the satellite was just not gonna cooperate and you had nothing. Interviewer: Yeah, I guess there was a nationwide radar system by that? Or? Very little for weather purposes, it was still, you know. Interviewer: It was still early enough in the 70’s it's not as common as it would become later on. No, you know, and the satellites were not nearly as, you know, efficient as a main, you know, now they can, you know, they can pick out the license plate on your trailer and, you know, if you’re staying out there what brand cigarette you’re smoking. You know, we would be lucky to say, you know, “Is that a cloud or is that a ship?” You know, or is that just a blip in the satellite download? And sometimes you literally, you know, had to guess and go back and look at the previous reports because they only came in like every 6 hours, and well based on that it’s still in the same place it probably wasn’t a cloud it really was a ship. Or, you know, a sandbar or, you know, who knows a whole island. You just kind of got seen by, you know, guess and by God will you figure it out, you know, what was what, you know, and to think that, you know, we would spend hours doing this stuff which today they, you know, it all comes in to computers and prints out and you know, five minutes everything that we spent a couple of days doing. Interviewer: Did you have computers at all? (42:57) No. Interviewer: Not there yet? No. Interviewer: So what year is this now? This is ‘73 through ‘75. Interviewer: Alright and… and you were living on the base at that point? �Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay and could you get off the base or do anything else? You could get off, in Lakers we could get off the base and go to various places when you weren’t studying but, you know, it was a fairly, you know, it was a far more intensive, you know, training program then to become a dispersing clerk so, you know, a lot more time was spent studying. Cause there was, you know, there was a lot more material. Interviewer: You had to memorize a lot. Yeah. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and that’s still the school so once the school finishes where do you go? (43:46) Well, you know, as with any other school the postings come open as to what has become available. Well, turns out hurricane hunters had an opening. It required someone with prior service time, two of us qualified: he had been in the Navy 28 days longer than I have. He got first pick. I mean it’s every weather guesser’s dream to be in the hurricane hunters, at least, you know, we thought. So he picked it. Second choice was between Adak, Alaska or Roosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico. I chose Roosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico. Before my orders were cut he had bailed on the hurricane hunters, he decided that was not for him, they tried to get my orders recut and, you know, it didn’t work so somebody a couple classes after us, you know, potentially got lucky, I never did, you know, did hear. But Roosevelt Roads being warm was definitely more interesting than the land of horizontal snow. Interviewer: Okay. So what was at Roosevelt Roads? Roosevelt Roads was the largest, area wise, base the Navy has ever had. Most of it was underwater at high tide and barely above water at low tide; air field was miles from anything else. I was only the 12th woman ever assigned to the base and the first woman in the weather office, so, you know. But it was, you know, it was a city unto its own, which was, you know, rather fortunate because at that point we weren’t paying a whole lot of attention to Vietnam because we were more concerned with the political problem in Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico had probably 20, 30 political parties all of which were warring with each other to the point of bombing and shooting, you know, there were a great number of times where we were restricted to base because of the danger and there were a couple of times the powerlines to the base got cut. We were re-established very quickly but, you know, you couldn’t go too far. Fortunately there was a really good Puerto Rican restaurant literally at one of the gates, and so, you know, if you �couldn’t go anywhere else you could go there. Oh my God, they had the best rice and beans. You know, I’ve only managed to make it like that a couple of times but, yeah. So, you know, if we went we went as a group, usually, you know, a couple of times the weather office, you know, anybody who wasn’t working and the Lieutenant Commander in charge, you know, got a van and we went out and explored El Yunque, the rainforest which was right near the base and then we, you know, took a trip inland—Arecibo, which is where the big radio telescope is, and I did end up seeing the other end around where Air Force had had a base on a visit with a group of SEAL team who were visiting from Norfolk but it was pretty strange, especially the rainforest, you know, they had been trying to repopulate it with birds but the poverty was such that the people were killing the birds for food even though, you know, the brightly colored birds really have very little meat on them and, you know, their value is in their looks. But you go into a rainforest and you’d expect to hear, you know, birds chirping and, you know, all you’d hear, you know, were the little coquís, the little frogs, you know, like this, you know, and almost nothing else. It was almost spooky. Interviewer: Alright, and were there any kind of distinctive events that took place while you were there or things that disrupted the routine other than worries about the Puerto Rican violence? I think I disrupted the routine more than anything else. Once again, I get down there and every time you take an observation you log it in the book and you’re supposed to initial it with your first and last initials, which in my case would have been SS for Susan Strum. Those initials were already taken, so then we look at “Well, what about your middle initial, last name? To be MS?” already taken. This is an office that’s only got, like, less than 20 people in it! So, “Okay, what about first name, middle initial? SM?” It’s taken. I don’t know what I’m supposed to—they had to get special permission from someplace else for me to use 3 initials and to this day I sign everything with SMS, you know, it just became ingrained in me during my time there. “Why do you use 3 initials?” I can’t do it any other way. But it was interesting being the first woman in the office with some adjusting, but, you know, everybody was really helpful and we all, you know, you kind of worked as teams and, you know, especially if you worked 11 hour days and 13 hour nights so you kind of take turns literally, you know, curling up under the drafting board, you know, one of you would stay awake the other would take a nap, you know. Couple hours later, you know, you’d switch. Only, you know, problem that came with this is in somebody’s infinite wisdom the weather office was located on the parking lot side away from the air field. We had to go out and, you know, we were responsible for maintaining reports on the weather on the air field. Well we couldn’t see it! We either had to, you know, wait for our equipment which was out in the air field to start, you know, if it was raining, you know, we had measured, you know, we had equipment that would measure it and it would—we did have computers, it would come in and measure into the computer and we would read off the measurements, you know, etc. but they were, you know, giant ENIAC type things and, you know, all they did was tell you what �happened but nothing beyond that. You had to figure out what the numbers meant or, you know, the air traffic controllers who fortunately did have a view of the air field, you know, would say, “Hey guys, it’s raining out here, you wanna come take an observation?” and then depending on what the situation was, especially, you know, because the land was so flat you get a lot of, you know, it didn’t take oftentimes much rain to cause major flooding and there were several instances while we were there of people trying to, you know, do what they tell you to this day: if you see running water across the road, don’t try and cross it. Well, somebody was all “I gotta get back to the base” or “I’m meeting somebody” and get washed away and drowned. So, you know, we could send out our reports to the other weather stations through the teletype in the office, stay nice and dry. Unfortunately for flood warnings and things like that had to go to the communications center, which it was about the opposite end of the base. On my shift I was the only one with a military driver's license, the guys had all managed to lose theirs. One of them by passing the base commandant’s car, I mean… guys, its got flags on it! He’s got an escort, what were you thinking, we’re lucky he was able to stay in the Navy without losing any rating! So that was always real fun because the only time that you had to do it was if the weather was really nasty, and so you’re going to the, you know, you’re doing, you know, water’s over the road? Doesn’t matter you gotta get to the comms center, you know, and then you gotta get back. Interviewer: Now were you driving Jeeps or regular cars or pickup trucks? (52:19) Pickup truck. Interviewer: Okay. You know… stick, on the column. Interviewer: And did you ever drive through running water? Oh absolutely. And over land crabs—they had these huge crabs that I don’t think were edible, I never knew of it, but they were, I swear to God, the size of plates and, you know, the rain would wash them up and you’d just hear them cracking under the wheel and there were times I’d come back to the office and I would just be, you know, I’m sobbing because I’ve killed so many of these crabs and of course by the next day the rain has washed them all away or somebody has eaten them, you know, and the road’s clear again and I’m like, “But it’s gonna happen again! I don’t wanna do this, can’t somebody get another driver’s license!” Interviewer: Alright. Now thinking about the time you spent in Puerto Rico are there other aspects of that experience that stand out for you? �It was fairly calm for the tropics. We had no hurricanes while I was there, we had, you know, some winds but fortunately for me I decided when my time to get out came I had, you know, saved up a 30 days leave and I chose to, you know, you could either, you know, stay to your end and cash it out, you know, or you could use it or a portion thereof. Well, I chose to use it and, you know, came back to Muskegon and enrolled in community college and got all set for, you know, I could star the Fall semester which had I stayed there for the 30 days the semester would have already started and it would have, you know, I could have tried to play catch up but, you know, just didn’t feel like that would be a real good idea so I got everything done here and then went and spent about a week and a half at Great Lakes in a transitional barracks while they processed my paperwork, came back and jumped into classes at MCC and… got going. Well in the meantime, during those 30 days a hurricane developed and there were 2 or 3 guys who were supposed to be getting out at the same time I did and they all got their time in service extended for a good 6 months and experienced a hurricane. Because we were on the far, you know, eastern edge so we got the first full brunt of anything coming through the tropics and… Interviewer: So if you had stayed there… It’s an experience that I really, you know… Interviewer: Were they extended because it was just a lot of work to be done to repair the base? Yeah because the weather office, you know, we still had to do something. I ended up, you know, spending about 30 years in Florida so I ended up with enough experience in the tropical storms and close to hurricanes that, you know, made up for missing one in Puerto Rico. Interviewer: Now had your plan always been to just do one enlistment and then leave? (55:25) I really wasn’t sure, you know, my original plan had been to do the three year but then in order to get the additional training I had to add an additional not quite a full year, but it was close to it, so I actually ended up spending close to 4 years, you know, which made the Navy and Air Force practically identical in the end run, but I decided finally at the end that since they said, you know, “Sign the paperwork then we’ll talk.” I think I’m like, “Eh, I’d really rather like to talk first.” But in the end I said that it’s not what I’m going to do, I’m gonna get out and use the GI bill to go back and I think I know what I want to do and I think this may be an area that I’m really interested in so, you know, I came back to community college because living at home didn’t, you know, JC didn’t cost that much so I used very little of my money. Then after I got my Associates degree and went back up to Edmonton where I was originally from to the University of Alberta, which is the university my father had gone to, thinking I was going to major in �meteorology cause they—it was between them and Michigan State and having been gone for 4 years Michigan State was just a little too close, you know. Mom and Dad would want me home every weekend or they would be showing up to school every weekend and then I just, you know, I was not ready for that. I had moved on, so, you know, 2000 miles worked out. As it turns out, you know, I decided it really wasn’t, I enjoyed the social sciences more than the others so I switched to Social Geography, ended up with a degree in Urban Geography with a minor in Sociology and then came back to Muskegon where the employment was a little bit better but not a whole lot. So I spent some time working for my father and his engineering office and he designed electrical-mechanical for buildings and was also very active in the initial renovation and restoration of the Hackney and Hume houses here in Muskegon, so, you know, any time anybody was home we got hauled in on that, you know. As a separate thing and then I got hired by Muskegon county in their planning department, but after just about 2 years they decided to eliminate the department and so basically said, “Use our resources to find yourselves other jobs.” and they had one fellow who they transferred to working for the bus garage as a planner and the other two of us were just kind of left to our own devices to find things and I decided at that point it was a good time to get a graduate degree, so I ended up going to the University of Pennsylvania in City and Regional Planning and while I was there I was offered a job by the city of Orlando as a planner and I took that job and then spent pretty much the next 30 years working in Florida. Initially, you know, doing a little bit of everything: housing, law enforcement, fire planning, some environmental and then ended up specializing in affordable housing, working with first time home buyers and non-profits that provided housing for disabled and very low income households and that was real rewarding. Interviewer: Yeah and I guess how much building goes on in Florida, there as populated as everything else and it’s probably a lot of business there. Yes, yes, yes. And the program I worked for actually was a grant program, but it was funded through the sales of property. A certain portion of the taxes went into a trust fund which worked really well for awhile until the governor discovered, you know, and several governors discovered that they were allowed to scoop some of the money out to balance their budgets and the money became less and less and fortunately—or unfortunately that kind of tied in with my retirement date and considering that my supervisor also did historic preservation, which I had some knowledge of but was not, you know, the expert she was so I couldn’t take her position and the other person in the office made about half of what I did and plus I was the only one at retirement age, so it just worked out, you know, provincially that the money ran out, my time, you know, was, you know, clicking as well. I retired in 2012, moved back to Muskegon, 2013 became a volunteer here at the Silversides and the rest is history. Interviewer: Now, back at the time that you spent in the Navy, how would you characterize the climate for women at that time? (1:00:26) �Most of the time it was very good, there were a couple instances where individuals themselves, you know, caused problems but overall the Navy was really pretty receptive, at least where I was. We did have one incident or a senior chief petty officer at Lakehurst who was stationed there for some other reason, had nothing to do with our school, but he insisted on coming to the graduation parties and he outranked pretty much everybody in the program and the officers had told him to stay away and what are you gonna do? And he would go, you know, fondle these poor—and these kids, you know, I don’t know they’re 18, 19 years old they’re terrified of this guy cause they should be, and, you know, our instructors and everything just kind of, you know, when it gets time for our class to have the parties, you know, I’ve heard about this guy, I’m watching and I’m trying to keep him away from some of the younger ones but hey, well, he grabbed me and I bit him. I bit his arm, and I bit him hard, I drew blood. Interviewer: I take it that actually worked? It did. I got congratulations for months after that when people found where I was because he never came back, he had to go to the, you know, to the base hospital cause I had broken the skin and he had to explain to them what had happened and I had, you know, lots of witnesses and he never bothered, you know, the AD school again. You know, I mean I was sorry it came to that, you know, but I’m glad I, you know, was in a position to do something however distasteful it was. Cause talking to this guy didn’t work but other than that everybody I worked with, you know, for the most part was—I mean there was always some hesitancy first, when you’re the first woman in the office, you know, “What’s she gonna be like?” But, you know, hey I went to the same school and, you know, learned the same things you guys did, knew the same training and had the same opportunity. Interviewer: And I guess the working environments that you worked at were ones where usually that many people make a small group, like some of these meteorological things, or even with the disbursement thing here in the office where the Lieutenant Commander’s right there, and the Filipinos were they female, male? (1:03:11) Male. I was the only female in that office, there were other females stationed in the main office but I was the only one in the sub-office. Interviewer: But in those places you might well not have had a subculture that was conducive to harassment or anything like that. No. Interviewer: Cause it pops up periodically and it happens in service. �Oh absolutely, yeah I mean, I have heard horror stories. Fortunately nothing other than that one instance which I just relayed to you, you know, was affected by it, thankfully. Interviewer: Alright. I mean, to look back on it now, what do you think you took out of your time in the Navy or what did you learn from it? I mean it was a great experience. I learned patience, you know, I learned to focus. When I went back to MCC I teased, you know, there were a lot of the same professors and staff there and I went from, you know, the Dean’s uh-uh list to the Dean’s mmhm list, you know? And he recognized it and, you know, it was encouraging. Interviewer: Alright. Well the whole thing makes for a good story so thank you for coming and sharing it today. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context StrumS2310V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Strum, Susan Margaret Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06 Title A name given to the resource Strum, Susan (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Susan Strum was born in Alberta, Canada, in 1951 and grew up in Michigan after her father’s work moved to the United States. Her father was a Canadian citizen working for a telephone company in Edmonton and her mother was a schoolteacher in Michigan. After graduating high school in 1969, Strum enrolled into Muskegon Community College, but the poor job market deterred her from completing her degree and she began looking into the military as a viable alternative. She enlisted into the Navy in 1971 once she earned her full American citizenship. For Basic Training, Strum was sent to Bainbridge, Maryland, where she described the induction process as oddly organized. She was trained as a Dispersing Clerk and was transferred to a Naval Training Center in San Diego, California, for another ten weeks of training on how to calculate payrolls and use calculators while in sexually integrated courses. From there, she was stationed in Charleston, South Carolina, for a year where she handled payrolls for several Navy detachments on the base. Strum later began training in recognizing precipitation types, meteorology, and weather patterns in Lakehurst, New Jersey, from 1973-75. After graduation, she was transferred to a Naval base at Roosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico, where she was assigned to the base’s Weather Office. While at Roosevelt Roads, Strum was more concerned with the unstable, violent political situation in Puerto Rico than with the ongoing war in Vietnam. She was also the first woman assigned to the Weather Office at Roosevelt Roads. From there, Strum decided to leave the Navy since she had accrued enough service points, was discharged, and returned to Muskegon, Michigan, where she re-enrolled into Muskegon Community College. She graduated with a degree in urban geography and a minor in sociology and went on to study regional planning at the University of Pennsylvania for her graduate degree. Strum was then hired by the city of Orlando as a regional planner and proceeded to spend the next thirty years of her career in Florida before retiring in 2012. She then moved back to Muskegon and began volunteering at the USS Silversides Museum. Reflecting upon her service, Strum believed the climate for women in the military was, for the most part, good despite some isolated instances of gender conflict. She ultimately believed her time in the Navy was a great experience which taught her the values of patience, focus, and discipline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3cebada9049ed0b1cbcf50af3158f256.mp4 2cdf3e7a994d05ee081265ffb4fb640e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ff415ce19c7b91f96a75fde73b02402d.pdf 1b50a7e5e47d02ce760ac207f873a156 PDF Text Text Stelter, LeeRoy Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Interviewee’s Name: LeeRoy Stelter Length of Interview: 1:23:49 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman Interviewer: We’re talking today with LeeRoy Stelter of St. Joseph, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with where and when were you born? I was born in April 7th, 1948 in Coloma, Michigan. Interviewer: Alright and did you grow up there? (00:21) Pretty much, graduated– Actually transferred my senior year from Coloma to St. Joe and graduated high school in St. Joe, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid? Basically my father was pretty much a mechanic, a maintenance man, and he was steadily employed at a couple of different places so. Interviewer: Okay, alright and so then what year did you finish high school? 1966. Interviewer: Okay, and what did you do after you graduated? Went to work in a factory making– A factory that made record players. Interviewer: Okay back when we still did that, I guess they still make them. Alright and now at this time how aware were you of the Vietnam war? �Stelter, LeeRoy When I graduated from high school it was a topic we about amongst ourselves because of the draft. It started and everybody had to register and it was on the news at night, that was pretty much the extent of the awareness. Interviewer: Okay, and then how did you wind up in the military? I had a cousin ask me what I was gonna do for a career, at that point in time I had no idea, I felt that I would continue to work in a factory and he suggested that I might consider joining the Army as an opportunity to help my career enlist– Get into a program that might be beneficial to me after I left. So I went down and talked to the recruiter and he showed me this opportunity to become a microwave radio repairman. Which is basically AT&T military version, we would send basically battalion level communications back and forth between battalions just as their means of communicating with one another. So I figured that would give me a background in electronics, that’s late 60s electronics were coming of age and I thought that would be an excellent opportunity for me, besides it took seven months of training to become a microwave radio repairman and I had no idea, you know what the likelihood was of me ending up in Vietnam until I completed my training. Interviewer: Yeah, so maybe if you trained long enough the war will be done and I’ll go home. That was a thought. Interviewer: Oh well, okay so when did you start basic training? (3:00) In August of 1967. Interviewer: Okay, alright and where did you go for basic training? Fort Knox, Kentucky. Interviewer: Okay, I guess back up a little before that, you had a physical, a draft physical or did you get it initially? When I– Because I had enlisted there was a delay because I actually had to synchronize my time in basic training with when the microwave radio school started. So they started me out a little bit after I was initially enlisted so I had already accumulated some reserve time, then I went in, like I say, at the end of August and that timed by basic training so that when I got out I was in sync with the microwave radio school. �Stelter, LeeRoy Interviewer: Okay, I was asking in part about did you have initially a draft– A physical when you first signed up for the draft or was your first physical after you enlisted? My first physical was after I enlisted. Interviewer: Okay, alright and then where do you go for basic training? Basic training again was Fort Knox, Kentucky. Interviewer: Fort Knox, right. So we’re at Fort Knox and then what did they do when you get there? Basically issued us our attire, gave us haircuts, assigned us to a company area, and we kind of got introduced to basic military practices. Interviewer: Okay, and you know often showing up for basic training it gets depicted as a bunch of guys with smokey bear hats yelling at you and things, some of that’s from the Marine Corps but did you get that kind of treatment when you showed up? (4:57) Absolutely, my drill sergeant looked like Smokey the bear, he happened to be a black gentleman, very highly decorated staff sergeant– Or actually sergeant 1st class, I’m sorry. He was a member of the Green Berets, supposedly had a field commission as a major when he was in the field, had been– And he stated this to us, when he put his dress uniform on he had been awarded every medal or citation he could have gotten at the time, he was an extremely well qualified individual. Interviewer: Alright, and how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Army? Fairly simple, my parents raised me to follow, you know do what you’re told and keep your mouth shut and I really didn’t find it with much difficulty at all. Although there was an issue and I don’t completely understand exactly what happened but my training company ended up being very special. There were a lot of different exercises that other people went through that we did not go through and I didn’t completely understand that until we got towards the end of the cycle, but at the time that I went in in ‘67 they were pretty much trained to, if you will, clean out the inner cities. So there were a lot of very rough individuals, if you will, in my company, there were a couple that went AWOL they served on a detail out picking up trash, a couple of them made a run for it. The guard of course yelled “Halt!” They didn’t halt, he fired a warning shot, they continued, he leveled on them and I don’t remember whether one or two was killed. So that brought our training company under scrutiny by the Army so we didn’t– Most other training companies marched or ran to their– From training activity to training activity, we took buses. There was very few times we wrote, bivouac, some people spent two or three nights out in the �Stelter, LeeRoy bushes, we were out for one night and then I guess we were under tight surveillance. I didn’t realize it, they were very concerned there might be some, I guess some further AWOLs or what but so it was a different experience. Interviewer: Okay, now were there tensions or conflicts among the recruits themselves? Not really, you know there were just normal things we had in my platoon. For instance there was a couple guys that started mouthing off to each other and they ended up settling it by– Like a dance off, “I can dance better than you can.” You know we do it better in Philly than you do in New Jersey. It was interesting but even though it was quite a diverse group from a large part of the country they got along pretty well. Interviewer: Alright, and then I guess the other thing would be the physical training side of things, I mean was that easy enough for you or did you have to get in better shape? Well like I said we were not required to run and march as much as the other groups so we may have been a little deficient as far as physical training went but I think we participated in most normal physical training activities. Interviewer: Okay, and then how long did basic last? How long– (9:00) Two months. Interviewer: Okay and then what did you do next? I was– When I left Fort Knox I was put on a, and I remember this very well, it was a constellation the plane with three tail fins up and we flew that from St.-- Louisville, Kentucky to Newark Airport and I distinctly remember the plane circling over the New York metropolitan area. I saw the Empire State Building for the first time in my life, it was an experience. I had flown before so it wasn’t my first flight but it was memorable because we flew over the New York skyline and landed in Newark. Interviewer: And where were they taking you? To Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. Interviewer: Alright, and then what did you do there? There I received my training as a microwave radio repairman, basically they start you out teaching you basic electronics and that goes on for several weeks, once you get the basic �Stelter, LeeRoy electronics then they teach you how to operate the microwave radio gear. It was interesting at that time the equipment that we trained on was left over from the Korean War so it was tube type equipment, although the military did have solid state equipment. At the last week or two of training they introduced us to solid state electronics so in case we might serve somewhere where that was the equipment that they were using but in it’s– That’s interesting as well because the solid state stuff was in other parts of the country, it was also microwave radio was also used as missile guidance radio equipment. So some of the guys left Monmouth and went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma to join up with the, I guess they call them artillery but they were– Artillery was missiles. So they received the same training that we did for that but the tube type equipment that we worked on in school was primarily used in Vietnam. So if you were being trained on the Amtrak 29 you were going to Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay, so they were at least teaching you on the equipment you were going to use as opposed to switching you at the last minute. Correct. Interviewer: Okay, so it sort of makes sense and for the Army I guess that’s good. Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, alright now what was daily life like there? (11:45) At Fort Monmouth it was pretty plain and simple, very much a lot closer to civilian life, very laid back, it wasn’t as military as you might expect although there was a period of time where the individuals that were training to learn about the microwave equipment came from other areas of the military where career soldiers were changing their MOS, their– Interviewer: “Specialty.” Specialty to another field and so there were some career soldiers that were blended in with us. At a point in time there were a couple of gentlemen from Airborne, they had a whole different idea about how we should do things and we actually had a little difference of opinion at a point in time. I was one of the three guys that dissented, we went through the military chain of command, went and saw the 1st sergeant, the XO, finally ended up in front of the old man, the Airborne fellas felt that our barracks wasn’t strack enough so they wanted a little more spit and polish. We obliged them, they came back they didn’t find our barracks spit and polished enough they found a few grains of dust here and there and they pulled our passes for the weekend and at that point we dissented and when we got to the old man, the captain that was over our company, he kind of like “What the heck are these guys doing? This is a microwave school, this isn’t Airborne.” So �Stelter, LeeRoy he reinstated our passes and we didn’t see those guys for a couple of weeks and that was towards the end of our training so we left. Interviewer: So the Airborne guys, they were just other people who were going through the school right? Correct. Interviewer: They were not there as instructors, they didn’t have authority over you. That’s correct, they were basically peers even though they were higher rank, they were buck sergeant and I think an E6 hard stripe sergeant that were basically put in charge of our platoon and then you know as platoon leaders they wanted to set the standard and didn’t fit. Interviewer: Lovely, okay now did you get to go off base much? Yeah every weekend and evenings, we were quite free. We could wander about I went– I was there at a bad time of year through the winter, New Jersey is relatively mild winter climate, so we could get out and about pretty easily. There was times when that winter of ‘67, ‘68 it was kind of snowy so it was interesting because the military issues everyone a snow shovel and you went out and cleared the walks and driveways, just manpower but it worked rather well, had a nice clean area when it did snow but– (15:05) Interviewer: And would you go to New York or Philadelphia? I was in an odd situation, I had broken my car that I had before I went in the military and that car had to be paid for, I was making payments on it, besides the fact that I broke it which cost a whole lot more to restore it and then they ended up selling it and it didn’t quite cover what I owed on it. So I spent probably two thirds of my military career sending most of the money that I made home so I couldn’t venture out too far but I did go to New York City once and that was an experience in itself. Interviewer: Okay, now you’re also there, you’re getting into 1968 a lot of kind of interesting things are happening politically at that point. You’ve had the Tet Offensive had happened, Johnson decides not to run, King gets assassinated, now were you at Fort Monmouth when those things happened? Yes, and to that point the activity that I saw on base there was a group, because we were there for training it didn’t involve us but it involved the people that were permanently assigned to Fort Monmouth, they had a drill one weekend and loaded the troops onto the helicopter and evacuated �Stelter, LeeRoy them or relocated them. So they were basically drilling and preparing for riots, so we had the experience. Interviewer: Alright, but on the base itself there wasn’t a whole lot of trouble or regulation. No trouble, no demonstrations, I think at one point in time there might have been like five or six people outside the base with signs and you know people just said “There’s demonstrators out there.” And it’s like, really, so but nothing notable. Interviewer: Alright, so when do you finish up at Fort Monmouth? In May of ‘68. Interviewer: Okay, and what happens to you next? I went home for a 30 day leave and then made my trip over across the pond. At one point at the end of training we sat down with an individual that talked to us about where we were going to be assigned. I was asked at the time if there was anybody else in my family that was in the military and at the time my brother was and indeed he was serving off the coast of Vietnam on a destroyer with the– He was naval reserve, spending his time in active duty with the Navy off the coast of Vietnam. (18:05) So at that point I really didn’t have to go to Vietnam, I was told that but then I asked when my brother left the coast of Vietnam how long would it take for me to be assigned to Vietnam, they said “For your MOS which is very critical in Vietnam, you would go immediately.” So I said “Well let’s just go and get it over with.” So that’s what got me to Vietnam. Interviewer: Alright now what’s the process of shipping somebody to Vietnam? Basically they make sure you have all the necessary immunizations and shots that you need, there was a very brief period of training like a day. That was done at Fort Dix just prior to me shipping out, I think– I don’t really remember exactly how that happened but basically they took you into a room, sat you down, explained a few things like there were some things in basic training that were pointed towards the Vietnam war, the night fighting and different things but we really didn’t do any specific training in basic, that was all to come in your AIT but like I say for us being radio men they put us on the back of a deuce and half, we drove down a road on Fort Dix Army Base there, they simulated an assault, an ambush if you will. We were told at the beginning that should you run into an ambush you jump off the other side of the truck and hide in the bushes, you know. So we’re to work our way back to a certain point and we just walked through the woods and got back to where we were supposed to be and that was our training. �Stelter, LeeRoy Interviewer: Okay, alright and then do they fly you out of Fort Dix or do you fly civilian aircraft? When I went over for the first tour I flew out on civilian aircraft, stopped over in– I believe the first time I went stopped over in Hawaii and then I think it was either Wake Island or Guam to refuel and then we landed directly into Bien Hoa Air Base. Interviewer: Okay, alright and what’s your first impression of Vietnam when you get there? When– On the plane, you know we’re talking to each other and we’re wondering you know are we gonna jump off the plane and run to a fox hole or what’s gonna happen and it was very uneventful. The plane landed, we got out, the Vietnamese civilians were all over outside the airport, once we landed at the airport we were transported by bus to the 90th replacement. The bus had wire screening on the windows so it’s like “Okay what’s this all about?” Well it’s to keep them from throwing hand grenades in the bus, you know it’s like “Oh, okay.” But we just, you know drove down the road and Vietnamese civilians were all over the place so it was a little strange, I mean we always– Growing up you always heard the World War II stories, the front and stuff and that didn’t exist in Vietnam, that was a different kind of thing but we went to 90th replacement, it’s funny in a way that I was there for a couple of days they knew where I was gonna be assigned to 327th Signal Company was at Long Binh and Long Binh’s only like five miles away from Bien Hoa Air Base which is where the 98th replacement was. (22:05) Took them a couple days to come over there and pick us up and take us to the 327th Signal Company and get us acclimated so. Interviewer: Alright so you start out then based in Long Binh? Right. Interviewer: Okay, and what were you doing there? Basically most of the people that I went over there with, the microwave technicians, were brought to the headquarters company there in Long Binh and then immediately shipped out to a detachment. Personally I was left there for like three months and basically we pulled– I pulled details, we went out and got a truckload of dirt to fill sandbags with, there was some sandbag filling, there was some painting, sprucing thing up around the company area. I spent one day in a commo bunker, basically every hour on the hour you’d make communication contact, somebody would call you, you would respond, they would affirm that you were where you were supposed to be and nothing was happening on the base. The idea being if something did happen people would come to the bunker, it was like a command bunker, and at that point in time they would’ve �Stelter, LeeRoy set up a command center and stuff but basically all we were doing was keeping a communications web functional. Interviewer: Okay so you’re really not doing very much of what you were trained for at that point. Not at all, not at all. So that was another thing I thought “Gee, what am I doing here?” So it took like I say about three months and then every morning you’d fall out into formation, you’d be assigned to do something and then you might go out with a couple other guys or a dozen guys depending on what the detail was going to do and it was kind of odd in a way, I never served KP, you know I could’ve just as well as anybody else but the things that they had me do were pretty common simple stuff. So and then one day I fell out in formation, 1st sergeant said “Stelter I wanna see you in the headquarters office after the formation and need to talk to you a little bit.” So when the formation was dismissed I went to the 1st sergeant’s office and he told me that I had been reassigned and I would be transported down to a base called Vinh Long to replace a soldier that we had lost during a mortar attack. Interviewer: Okay, now during those three months when you’re at Long Binh did you spend that whole time on the base or did you ever go off it? Always on the base. Interviewer: Alright, okay so where is Vinh Long? (25:10) Vinh Long was— It’s the Mekong River came into Vietnam, it split into three prongs, basically Vinh Long was on the middle prong and it was on the south bank of the river and it was part of a radio relay set up for my signal company between Dong Tam, Vinh Long was the relay and the eventual site that the signal went to was Can Tho. In Can Tho they did have solid state equipment, they had a piece of equipment they called track 90 which was tropospheric scatter, it had a huge dish and they bounced the radio signal off the troposphere and then down to Saigon. So that was the delta’s communication link to Saigon, the Dong Tam, My Tho was the closest Vietnamese village, was the base for the 25th Infantry Division. That base was the fellows from our outfit that were stationed there were pretty much under very regular mortar attacks, the Vietnamese really didn’t like the 25th Infantry Division and as a result that base was attacked regularly. Interviewer: Okay, now what was– Okay how did they get you down to Vinh Long? That was another experience, the first day I grabbed my duffle bag and jumped in a jeep and was taken to a heliport, I went to get on the helicopter and as we were arriving the helicopter took off, �Stelter, LeeRoy I got left behind. Went back to the 1st sergeant said “Hey you know you told me I was supposed to catch this helicopter and it left.” And he said “Yeah I know, I got a phone call the helicopter was full and we’ll get you down there.” And I thought “Okay, fine.” So the next day they took me to a nearby base, I left Long Binh and went to place called Bearcat and there I got on what they called an otter which is a fixed wing aircraft, extremely slow flying, it was an interesting experience just taking off in it because it just didn’t seem like it got up enough speed and it took forever, must of ran the full length of the runway before it got off the ground and another thing because it flew so slowly it didn’t have a lot of power, they circled Bearcat a couple times to gain altitude before they flew out over the jungle where they may have been shot at and rode that down to Vinh Long and found myself reunited with a buddy from radio school and then also met a gentleman from up north here in Michigan, Grand Haven. He was very excited to see me so I thought that was pretty good but the change from Long Binh to Vinh Long it was like I was kind of in a somewhat more civilized, clean, organized area. There were actually like three bedroom ranch homes that were built in a little development in an area, I’m sure they were occupied by field officers or whatever but then Vinh Long was kind of a ratty little nasty base and at that point in time– And I never really had it explained to me or what but Vinh Long was under attack every night. The first night that I got there, it was like the 4th of July, the whole place was incoming rounds, outgoing mortar fire, we didn’t– There weren’t any rockets it was mainly mortars, Huey, Cobra gunships were flying around the perimeter spraying minigun fire into the perimeter. (29:23) We sat and listened to the radio, there were people crawling into the wires and stuff around the place, it was like they were, you know trying to over run the base and that went on probably for the first couple of weeks and I tell people I just really don’t have a good recollection, I don’t recall what went on during that period of time because just all hell broke loose every night. Interviewer: So what’s the basic time frame for that, when do you get out to Vinh Long? I’m guessing, and I don’t really have a record of it, but I– Like I say I think I spent three months in Long Binh so that would’ve been, got out of school in May, June I was home for a 30 day leave prior to going so it must’ve been July, August, September. So late September, early October I was first arrived there. Interviewer: Alright, now so how long did it stay that intense? Probably for at least three or four months but it was gradually deescalating, like I say the first two weeks it was all hell broke loose every night, then it got to be where it was like every other night, then it got to a couple times a week, then it got to a couple times a month, and by the time I left, which was another decision point in my career with the military, I thought “You know it’s getting pretty quiet around here, why don’t I just go home and come back? I’ll spend eight months and I’ll get my five month early out and I’ll be out of the military and you know this isn’t �Stelter, LeeRoy so bad it’s getting quiet here.” So that was the thing, during Tet I guess the fighting around Vinh Long was quite intense, as a matter of fact the fellows that were there with the 327 Signal Company carried their weapons, served on the guard post, they were an active part of the fight. By the time I got there it had settled “Oh this is quiet.” It had settled down we were no longer, you know, pulling those kinds of details. So got away from the but the fighting was still, to me, fairly intense. Interviewer: Sure, and you were replacing somebody who had gotten killed so–” Yes. Interviewer: Okay, now what else was on the base, you had the signal detachment and then what else? Well we were there as a relay site okay but we were also supporting a– I’m thinking a battalion, maybe infantrymen, there was an airstrip there, that was of interest to the enemy because that was their primary target when they hit us with mortars was to tear up the airstrip but that was about it, you know a small group of military folks. Interviewer: And then do you have a sense of what size unit you had for perimeter guard, did you have a rifle company or a platoon? (32:35) Probably something like a company, the area was expanded by the airstrip we did protect the airstrip, at some bases they just protected the living quarters and mess hall and stuff like that, at our base we were protecting the airstrip as well so it was a little bigger. Interviewer: Alright, now what kind of physical quarters did you have there? Actually what we called the Hooch was a wood frame building with a corrugated metal roof and we were told that that roof was stout enough to protect us from a direct hit by a mortar. The idea was the mortar would hit the metal roof and it was stiff enough where it would set the mortar off and the shrapnel would go up and out as mortars were designed to do. So after the fella that I replaced that had been killed left we– Actually he was killed leaving the Hooch to go to a bunker, had he stayed in the Hooch he would’ve been fine. So they told us you stay in the Hooch and crawl under your bunker and cover yourself with your flak jacket. So we always had our flak jackets hanging on our bunks and we just the top guy would roll out first, get under the bunk, the bottom bunk would roll in and pull the flak jackets in. The perimeter of the Hooch was filled with 55 gallon drums filled with sand so that and they were stacked one on top of the other so we really didn’t have visible– You know you couldn’t look out a window, you saw a steel drum so we were kind of living in a bunker, if you will. �Stelter, LeeRoy Interviewer: Okay, now were they right about the roofs being mortar proof? We didn’t– We never had the opportunity to find out for sure. Interviewer: Well good, okay so now were you still taking casualties? You know in those first weeks when you were there were people still getting hit? Yes, and I can’t– I don’t know how many were killed or injured or what but there were people that were being medevaced. Interviewer: Now do you know if any of the enemy actually managed to get into the perimeter? One evening I recall listening to a PRC-25 basically a field radio, we got one from somewhere and so we were on the same frequency as the perimeter security group was and they were communicating back and forth with the command bunker and they talked about sappers in the wire and he’s in the first wire, he’s in the second wire, whatever. So they kept calling back and forth asking to shoot the guy and they kept saying “No, observe, observe.” Like they wanted to see how far this guy was going to penetrate the compound before they did anything about it and I don’t remember the outcome but he didn’t penetrate the perimeter so at that point in time we were okay. (36:10) Although south of us the Vietnamese– The southern end of the relay was Can Tho which was a larger base, better protected, the Vietnamese pulled a shenanigan down there where they somehow got a hold of one of our ambulances, loaded it with guerilla fighters, fired up the sirens, came to the base after an attack had started like “We’re here to pick up wounded.” Or whatever, they threw open the gates, these guys drove into the flight line, they got out of the ambulance, they ran down the flight line, they were throwing satchel charges into the revetments where the helicopters and aircraft were parked blowing up aircraft and stuff, jumped back in the ambulance, turned around, fired up the sirens, and drove out the main gate. So it was a suicide mission, they didn’t expect to get away but you know under normal circumstances I mean here comes and ambulance what do you do? Wow, open the gate, let them out, take the guys who are wounded to the hospital, they didn’t realize it was the same ambulance that brought the bad guys in. So there were those types of attacks that took place but thankfully not at the base I was at at the time. Interviewer: Right, now the enemy that was around you, do you know if they were Viet Cong or North Vietnamese? From what we were told basically it was Viet Cong, they were local people, at that point in time– Now this is after Tet of ‘68, Tet kind of extended itself at Vinh Long. The other compounds like �Stelter, LeeRoy I say, Dong Tam they were under constant attack all the time, whatever the Viet Cong or N.V.A had they were throwing it at the 25th Infantry Division. We weren’t quite that much of a target although it took them quite a while to wipe out or cut back the troops that were coming to try and overthrow us but we didn’t have that sophisticated of a group and they really didn’t have the fire power either because our normal attacks were like 60 and 80 millimeter mortars. There was one event, one time where they got a hold of some 120 millimeter mortars, they dropped three of them and they fell within, I would say, 100 meters of our Hooch. It was very loud and shrapnel– With the other attacks we never had shrapnel land on the roof or anything, it came down like shovelfuls and so we knew it was very close and it was a scary situation. Interviewer: Does that just happen once? Does that just happen once? That happened once, yeah. Interviewer: Okay, alright so does as time sort of goes on do things kind of settle into a routine for you there? Pretty much, yeah you know we’d do our social things, we’d get together, sit around, play cards, drink beer. It kind of varied whether– Because we’re a detachment we’re so small we were under an NCO, the officer that was in charge, the next person up in our chain of command was actually stationed in Dong Tam, which is another story. (40:00) So we had an NCO in charge of us so we were laid back, one sergeant was a little more adept than another and he made a deal with the mess hall people and got us some steaks and we made some potato salad and drank some beer and, you know we’d have a little party maybe once a month or something but that gentleman was only with us for a short period of time. So he made us work hard, we resandbagged bunkers and refortified our facility and stuff, it was a lot of work to do that but it kept us busy and gave us something to do and then we were rewarded with a party. The following sergeant that we had wasn’t quite as resourceful and matter of fact he was pretty reluctant to even fulfill his military obligation, he was incapacitated a good part of the time, so another experience. Interviewer: But you guys basically knew what you were doing and just went about and did your jobs anyway– Absolutely. Interviewer: Regardless of that, okay now did you have any Vietnamese who would come into the compound? Absolutely, every day. There was a civilian group that came in every morning, most of the other– Your Hooch would have basically a person I guess assigned to it, we paid them out of our �Stelter, LeeRoy pockets to do our military things, shine our boots, clean our clothes, press them, so that stuff, clean the Hooch out, sweep it out, make our beds, you know just a housekeeper basically. We were a little exceptional, all the other ones had mamasans, we had a papasan, so we had a guy that took care of us and he was– He was able to help us out pretty well, he had some good contacts, he was an older fella so he knew where to go to get things and get things done and stuff, so it was kind of interesting. Interviewer: So by getting things, getting things that are on the base or from off the base? On or off, he knew where to get certain supplies and stuff so that our uniforms were maybe better cared for than others and just he made– You know you forgot to throw something in to be washed and he could get it taken care of in a matter of a couple hours, little amenities. Interviewer: Did you have concerns that any of these people were Viet Cong? We did not at the time but over time we began to learn that, you know– And we weren’t the ones to watch, I mean that wasn’t part of our deal, we just heard things after the fact but there were a couple of things that were significant. One our radio site had a tower, like a scaffold 147 feet in the air, and that’s where our radio dishes were mounted, that tower was the aiming point for the mortar attacks, so there was no way they were going to destroy our radio site, we had no idea. (43:35) The other thing was that from time to time you might see somebody, and they were very discreet about it but they walked by the radio site, well while they were walking by it they were counting their steps to measure the distance from the radio tower to targets around the base and we were oblivious to that I mean, but you know that’s something we learned after the fact so. Interviewer: Okay, now was there any kind of village nearby or was it just– We were on the, basically on the south edge of town and the town was right against the shore of the middle branch of the Mekong River, as I stated earlier, and then we were just south of that with our airbase or air strip. So you could basically walk out the gate, although we didn’t walk we’d hitch a ride and go into the village and I did that on several occasions it wasn’t something that we did on a daily routine but from time to time and that was and oddity, I mean here we are in a war zone, you walk off the base, you go into the village and mingle with the natives and then there was a curfew. You had to be gone and back, I can remember on one occasion that I did get into a little trouble for it, for some reason there was a MACV, the command group in Vietnam, had a little compound between the base and the village proper. It was a– I don’t know, a villa if you will, on the river so it was kind of a nice setting and they had a bar there so we went down to the bar to have a few drinks and spend the evening. Well in the course of the evening I had wandered away from the bar and I mean it wasn’t– There were no fences, there were no restrictions, just walked out of the bar and walked down the street into the village and not– You �Stelter, LeeRoy know I was oblivious, I didn’t realize that there was a problem or anything and ran into some of the villagers and they confronted me and you know “What you do?” “I’m out for a walk.” “Oh okay.” You know and a few people gathered around me, you know just asking you know “What’s going on?” And “I’m just out for a walk.” And stuff and then I thought “Well I’ve been here long enough I guess I better go back to the guys.” Well by the time I turned around and went back the guys had already left and they didn’t know where the heck I was. So I stayed there for a little bit and pretty quick here the guys came back and “Where the heck were you?” I said “I just went into the village for a little bit.” “Oh you’re not supposed to do that.” So I got in the jeep, we went back the base, we were confronted by the military police at that point in time because the– My sergeant and another fellow were confronted and they said well we had a troop and you know they’re past curfew and I didn’t even think about a curfew. It’s just the way it was there and it ended up they wanted to arrest me and everything and the sergeant was able to talk them out ofit and they took me back to the compound and you know “Don’t do that again.” Interviewer: Alright, now in some cases villages near bases provided a variety of resources for soldiers, including potentially women, or bars, or other things. Was that the case there? That was in town, you’d leave the base, go into town, and there was a little bar district. Interviewer: Was that considered to be dangerous or you had to be careful what you were doing there? (47:31) Never any concern. There was one occasion a guy from the 1st Signal Brigade, a photographer, came down to photograph Signal Corps personnel and what they encountered during the monsoons. So he was taking pictures of us while it was raining and it stopped raining and he stopped taking pictures, I said “Well let’s go to town and get a beer.” You know, so okay so we hitched a ride, got into town, we were sitting in a bar having a beer and commotion erupted outside and the people that owned the bar went over and closed the doors and stuff and we’re sitting there drinking beer and we didn’t think anything of it. Some guy banged on the door, the guy opened the door, and he’s yelling “VC in the village!” And it’s “Yeah right.” You know and he had somebody hit him in the head, he had blood on his face and stuff and I thought “I’m not getting into that.” The guy, the owner, pushed him out, rebarred the door and I thought “I’m safe in here, I’m just gonna stay. If there’s some fighting that breaks out I’m gonna be in here not out in the middle of the street.” The commotion escalated, it got noisier and stuff and the owner of the bar came to us and said “You go now.” You know it’s time for you to get out of here. So alright fine so me and the guy got up and went out in the street and hitched a ride on a truck and instead of going to the base we went further into town and we found another bar and sat down and had another beer and we kind of left the street stuff and went to the other bar and then it’s like the commotion followed us. So we thought “Well we better get out of here.” So we came out of the bar and saw an MP in the streets, so we went over to the MP said “Hey look we gotta get �Stelter, LeeRoy out here.” And he said “We’ll get you a ride.” You know cause there were military vehicles passing once, you know every so often. So we stood by him, well while we were standing beside him Vietnamese, what they call, QC came up beside him and he’s yelling and pointing at us and speaking in, you know Vietnamese we had no idea what he was doing but in the meantime he’s trying to get ahold of the MP’s sidearm. And he’s (Stetler makes a gesture like someone pushing a hand away) gotta be a little more than that, he’s like “get out of here!”. Interviewer: QC is a Vietnamese policeman basically. Yes, yes. And they’re pointing at us and saying things, and we never really did find out what happened, you know? They did, I think, you know some GI offended some barkeeper or something and then some ruckus broke out or whatever but we got out a deuce and a half and went back to the base and that was the end of that. So there were—there were incidents. (50:40) Interviewer: Alright. But uh a lot your exposure really to the war parts was simply the bombardments of the base, especially early on. Yup. Interviewer: Okay, so now how long did you stay then at Vinh Long until you went out? I was at Vinh Long until June of ‘68 Interviewer: Or ‘69? Or I’m sorry ‘69 it would be, yeah. Interviewer: Alright now then you basically extended— I had extended because it was quiet and I felt that I could come back, so I went home for a 30 day leave in July of ‘69 and in August returned and served out. Interviewer: Okay. So what was it like to leave Vietnam for a month? Actually that 30 days you know, as I think back, is just pretty much a blur. I came back home, met with some of my buddies and friends but a lot of them you know they had gone off to start careers and jobs and certain things, and here I am home when they’re working, so we didn’t have that much time to get together. Of course I’d meet some friends at bars and party and carry on a little bit, and I did the 4th of July, I went up to Saugatuck at that point in time Saugatuck was like a big party on the 4th of July and there were a lot of… hippie types, if you will, and there was �Stelter, LeeRoy some kind of a festival up there then. I went up there just to see what was goin’ on and just— bikers and different group of people, it was kinda different. (52:31) Interviewer: Okay. Now the people, people could look at you and know you were in the military or? Nope. My hair was shorter than most people but I just put on a tshirt and some levis and went on. You know, nobody really singled me out or anything. Interviewer: And when you were going, like flying in the US, were you going in uniform? Civilian attire. Interviewer: Okay. And was that recommended to you when you were coming over? No. It’s a personal choice from based on things that I was hearing and seeing at the time, I guess there were—there was a little—some comments made, you know, when I left that hey some things aren’t completely normal over there and of course the only information we got was the one television we had presented by the military and the stars and stripes newspaper that we got. I think it was a weekly publication and, you know, they didn’t put all the pictures of the demonstrations and stuff that were going on. A little bit but they didn’t play it up so I never really thought too much about it and actually coming home, going through the major airports and stuff, ya saw some people. Hippie types if you will. Running around and it’s like, eh, I just didn’t think too much of it at that point and time. Interviewer: Yeah, they weren’t bothering you any. No. Interviewer: Alright, so now you go back again, back to Vietnam, now where do you get assigned? Okay. When I went back to Vietnam I had some problems at Vinh Long with the Sergeant, as I was saying he wasn’t doing his job and that kind of upset me and him both so we were both reassigned. When I got back at that point because I was returning the First Sergeant said “Where do you wanna go?” you know, I could go to any one of the bases that we were at and I found out a friend was at Can Tho, I was familiar with their set up because it was in our relay, so I thought “Well, I’ll just go down there.” It was a bigger base it was nicer, although I found out that it wasn’t—I guess that was something that I didn’t really understand but in Vinh Long, as primitive as it was, we had running water, we could take hot showers daily, you know the mess hall the �Stelter, LeeRoy food was halfway decent we only got food poisoned a couple times there. When I went to Can Tho it was a bigger facility, a better laid out buildings were in better shape and stuff, it did not have hot and cold running water. There was a water heater there but nobody knew how to operate it so we just took cold water and dumped it on ourselves out of a slop-sink, so it was kinda primitive. The mess halls, the food was honestly so bad that you couldn’t eat it a lot of the time. It was poorly prepared, the utensils and stuff, the Vietnamese ran our kitchens and stuff so they didn’t wash well or whatever so you, I was in dysentery most of the 8 months I was there. We tried to find, there were nearby bases where we were allowed to go to eat. One base we could go to it’d cost us a dime to have a meal but there you could get something good that would stay in ya, so we kind of did that. Plus on base their was a Vietnamese concession that made their egg Mcmuffin, bacon egg and cheese ya know? Little sandwiches they’d make for breakfast or you know, they’d make you a hamburger kind of thing, you know. But again I was short on funds while I was there so I didn’t have the money to buy meals, so I just kinda supplemented my eating with that. It’s another thing too that’s kinda odd if you didn’t think about it, but I told you in Vinh Long we had parties and we had steak. We didn’t have steak at the mess hall, we had steak if the Sergeant went and negotiated with the cook, then we could have steak. I didn’t understand, the army didn’t run that right. On my second tour I had to take some radio parts down to a radio site on Phu Quoc island which was 80 miles off the coast of Vietnam. We had a radio site there supporting a CB detachment, they were building an airstrip and securing it. There was also a very large NVA prison camp on that island so they would, there was always concern somebody would break loose there so the CBs were, as well as construction providing security, we provided the communications for them. I went down there and spent a couple of days and it would just shock me, I went into the mess hall and they were having steak. So I did have steak in one mess hall, but like I said I probably weighed 150-160 lbs most of my time over there on my second tour. By the time I rotated out I weighed 125 lbs, I was skin and bones I just—because of the food and stuff. Interviewer: Did they treat you medically for the dysentery or give you anything? Didn’t bother to ask. You know as a 20 year old kid, a 21 year old kid, you know you just don’t think about it. And everybody was doing the same thing you know, and it’s like “This is life, this is the way it is.” ya know. Interviewer: So it didn’t get to the point it was debilitating. No, no. But it, you know, I just like to say if I was hungry and felt, you know, they would go off base and find a meal someplace else so. �Stelter, LeeRoy Interviewer: Alright. Now did you have—I mean before you left in the first part of Vietnam where you had kind of observed and things seemed to be getting quieter over time, did that continue where you were at Can Tho? Yes. Interviewer: Was it relatively quiet? It was all, in my whole 8 months, never a mortar attack, never any incoming rounds in Can Tho it was—it could’ve been state-side and you know and 2, we were free to come and go to the village. There we had more vehicles that we had access to, we had a Jeep, a Deuce and a Half, and a ¾ ton truck. You could jump on any one of them, run into the village, get something to eat. drink, carry on with the natives, come back. It was pretty open, pretty simple. Interviewer: Okay. Now were you aware at this point of Nixon’s plans of Vietnamization and all that sort of thing? Good point. Yes, very much so and actually the war in the Delta region had started to escalate because we were starting to hear of different outposts where our radio sites were that were starting come under attack again because the whole Delta region had well kind of calmed down there toward the end of my first tour, right? And it was pretty quiet when I returned, and only— I’m gonna say maybe the last couple months there was talk. Now my base didn’t get hit but some of the other bases were starting to get hit as the Vietnamization was taking place. So it was noticeable. (1:00:38) Interviewer: So essentially as the Americans were turning things over to the Vietnamese the Vietcong come back? Was that the impression or assumption, or is that something you don’t really know? Well they—my understanding of this is that apparently there was more of an effort to bring things down the old Ho Chi Minh Trail and resupply the Vietcong and kind of get ‘em going again from the North Vietnamese. There was one incident that I heard of and we were never really sure, we had a civilian contractor from Collins Radio that oversaw our radio equipment and any major maintenance he was there to perform, we weren’t able to do it. Interviewer: Okay, I’m gonna pause you right here because this tape is about up. (The screen fades to black as the tape is replaced.) Alright you were talking about a fellow from Collins Electric? Collins Radio. �Stelter, LeeRoy Interviewer: Radio, yeah. Basically there was an incident: he was at one of our radio sites servicing the radio gear, so he spent a couple days there. It was what place we called Rock Jaw which was down in the southern end of Vietnam. He was socializing with other civilians one evening so curfews and things didn’t really pertain to him. He carried a sidearm for his personal protection, he was out like I said socializing, on his way back he wandered the streets of Rock Jaw and for some reason—maybe he had a little too much to drink or what—he decided to take a break and he took a seat in front of a building and rested for a moment and a gentleman came by in black pajamas with a straw hat carrying an AK-47. And the gentleman confronted him and pointed to his sidearm which was like a, I think it was a Browning 9mm that he’d had in a shoulder holster, and he threw sign language basically telling this gentleman he wanted to make a trade: his AK-47 for his sidearm. And he wasn’t quite sure, I mean the Vietcong didn’t really have uniforms, of course we always talk about black pajamas and stuff but that was clothing that the people wore, were black pajamas. So he denied the guy the swap and the guy just turned around and walked away. Well after he left the civilian gentleman from Collins Radio sat there and just all of a sudden you could feel the blood draining from his body like he was ready to pass out, he thought “Oh my god that guy could have been a Vietcong or what and shot me and taken my sidearm!” But of course he probably didn’t want to start a fracas in the area and draw attention to the fact that he was there so he just left him be, but he may have dodged a bullet, if you will. So. (1:04:10) Interviewer: In the time that you were there, were there any problems with drug use on the bases? I don’t know that you’d call it a problem. It was prevalent, the plate—the hooch if you will—that I was billeted in Can Tho there was a bunker right outside the room that I slept in and that seemed to be a favorite spot for the people that smoked marijuana every evening. And there were, it’s not like there were one or two, there must have been fifteen, twenty guys up there smoking dope and you know the cloud just rolled right through the hooch. There were—-a couple doors down there a couple guys with my outfit had a room, and our officers in charge of our detachment there every night went there and sat and played pinochle and drank scotch while the guys sat out the bunker and smoked, so. You know, if it was a problem nobody knew about it I mean. Interviewer: So you had what could get labeled as recreational use of things. Basically, yes. �Stelter, LeeRoy Interviewer: But not things that really interfered with people doing their jobs as far as you could tell. That, you know, not noticeable. There were rumors and stories that different things said; there were, in that group of people, of course a couple of guys from our outfit were involved with that and they had told about one individual and 15-20 guys did get into harder drugs. And when it came time for him to rotate out he didn’t go straight home. I was told they sidetracked him and kind of detoxed him before he went back to civilian life, so. But yeah just, you know, some guys drank, some guys smoked. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now did you notice any kind of racial tensions in that time out there? The black guys in the bases that I was stationed at—there weren’t that many—there were… in one group of guys that I was friendly with and we hung out, there was a black guy that was part of our group. And I can remember in one instance where, you know, we’re sitting outside on the sandbags talking, listening to music or something, and a couple other black guys walked by and they said something to him. And it was their slang or what. And you know “What’s the matter?” “Basically they’re calling me Uncle Tom.” but so there was racial tension but where I was at, what I was involved with, we really didn’t see that much of it. (1:07:07) Interviewer: Okay. Alright now I think you had mentioned you wanted to tell a story of somebody you knew out there? Well, yeah there was an incident when I was in Vinh Long towards the end of my first tour. I was the maintenance man at the radio site, I had kind of taken things over, if anything went wrong go get Stelter, he’ll fix it. And so I basically kept the gear operating. I had trouble with a piece of equipment—there was a guy in our Northern site Dong Tam that I knew was very well qualified, he was educated at a higher level, he was a microwave radio repairman technician or something. There was an additional description at the end of his title because he actually did detailed maintenance work on equipment. I knew he was there, I knew he had the knowledge. I asked him to come to our site because I was having trouble with this piece of equipment. He agreed to do that, he was supposed to be there the morning of the next day and he didn’t come, didn’t show up and eventually we got a call from the site that they didn’t make it, there had been an incident on the road between sites. There were the maintenance man, a driver, and then our officer in charge—like I said he was stationed at Dong Tam. He decided to accompany them to come down to visit us, I mean it was nothing going on but he thought he ought to see the base he’s in charge of so he joined the group, they left the base, they were headed down the road if you will to Vinh Long. They were detained by the MPs, they were told that the road ahead hadn’t been cleared, he would not advice going; there was some discussion, the officer basically told the �Stelter, LeeRoy MP “Look, we’re not a target we’re just a Jeep, so we’ll just go on our way” and it’s like (Stelter shrugs.) your call. So they took off. Well, on the way they, as I understand the story there was a 2 ½ ton truck. They came and were overtaking the 2 ½ ton truck, they were beside it, and apparently a command-detonated mine was set off. It blew up the deuce and a half and took the back corner out of the Jeep, it wounded the driver’s right arm, there was the maintenance guy sitting in the back seat he was basically blown in two, and the officer was sitting in the passenger's seat of the Jeep he was decapitated. So the next day, or later that day, the engineers brought the Jeep and the remains: rifles, helmets, flak jackets, personal possessions of the people involved in the incident back to our base and left that there. And I guess that’s the one thing that, if you will, still bugs me about the war: that I had asked them to come, they wouldn’t have come if I hadn’t asked, of course they put themselves in the situation by going down the road that wasn’t cleared and they knew it. Lost their lives, so. That was a little tough. Interviewer: Alright. And now, are there other incidents or particular memories or impressions you have from your time in Vietnam before we bring you back home? There was another incident: fella was about to leave country because there had been incidents with other people in the signal corps. We were told that 10 days before you rotate out of country you will be at headquarters in Long Binh, cause that was considered a pretty safe place to be. This guy that was from the (sounds like “Rock Jaw”) site decided that, you know, he knew what the routine was so he purposefully left his rifle in Rock Jaw. Left Rock Jaw to be in Long Binh 10 days before he was to leave, started the clearing process to clear post as they put it, when he got to supply he didn’t have his rifle and he was “Gee, I forgot my rifle.” They said “Well, that’s not something we can just have somebody hand to somebody, that’s a very personal possession. You need to get it.” so he agreed to go back to Rock Jaw. Well what we did then is you could get a helicopter ride, a fixed-wing aircraft, something and just fly from base to base and hop around. Well he decided he was—he had this in mind that he would drop off at the various 327 Signal Company detachments and visit. He stopped by our detachment in Can Tho, which we were like the last leg of his trip on let’s say for instance on Wednesday. Spent the night with us, Thursday he left for Rock Jaw, Friday I left for Rock Jaw to take some supplies down there it was, I don’t know 40 or 50 mile ride, so on the way down we pass by the air field and lookin’ out in the field and there’s people standing the rice paddies out there, and the tail of a C1-23 cargo plane sticking up out of the rice paddy. I’ve got a picture of it. And I went on to the base and I said “Well, where’s this gentleman?” and they said “You see the plane?” and I said “Yeah I did.” They said, “Well he was on that plane.” So he was like, you know, 2-3 days from leaving country and the plane just crashed. I mean it wasn’t like it was shot out of the air there was something mechanical that went wrong. It went into a steep climb, one of the engines crapped out, it rotated nose down into the ground, accordioned into the rice patty and he lost his life just days before he was supposed to go home, so that was kind of a tough incident, but. (1:14:10) �Stelter, LeeRoy Interviewer: Alright. Now, so did you go to the base then with ten days then you go back to Long Bonh? Yes I did. Interviewer: Okay. And so how did you spend those last 10 days? Sittin’ around twiddling your thumbs. They really don’t—there’s no need to pull any details or anything, the other guys are pulling the details and stuff. You have to go to finance and go to supply and various other places and clear your records, make sure you’ve turned in everything you’re supposed to turn in. Weapons, what have you, your great and make sure you don’t owe anybody anything. Clear personnel and that your records are straight, so I find out what medals you’re due and stuff, campaign ribbons or whatever til all that gets worked out and you just basically sit around. Visit with the other troops that are there and make plans for home. (1:15:11) Interviewer: Okay. And then where did you fly out of? Flew out of Benwire base as I came in. That was the thing, I flew in a commercial air flight back to the world if you will. That’s interesting too—we didn’t mention this but when I returned to Vietnam for my second tour I left initially from Oakland the first time, and then the second time because I was East of the Mississippi I left out of Fort Dix. When I went to Fort Dix they didn’t have a commercial flight available, I ended up on a air force super-strato C1-41 I think it was. Cargo plane with jump seats and here I am going on my return trip to Vietnam in a cargo plane. It was an adventurous trip: you sat with your knees interlocked, you had to crawl over each other, they put a big container on the plane one side of the container was the restroom the other side was your meals. So it was an adventure. Interviewer: Alright. And then once you take off on the way home is there any kind of celebration as you get out of Vietnamese airspace? Oh, everybody on the plane yells hooray and stuff, there’s a lot of excitement and feel-good kind of atmosphere and too at the same time most of the people on the flight are also gonna be discharged from the service when they arrive in Oakland, so there was some excitement about that. Happened to be April 1st and then part of the discharge process we were in a large room, a person came to the podium explaining the procedures that we were gonna follow and said “Oh by the way, we’re not gonna discharge anymore people today this is it, we’re done.” and he starts to turn and walks away from the podium. And then he does an about-face and come back “All right, April Fools.” It’s like yeah, that’s not a good joke, you know? (Stelter laughs.) �Stelter, LeeRoy Interviewer: Yeah. But then we continued with the discharge process and got out of there. Interviewer: Okay. So you’re out of the army now at this point? Did they discharge you? Right. You’re in dress when we left, I was in jungle fatigues, and then when you arrive Oakland then they issue you a Class A uniform so you’re discharged in a dress uniform. Got that uniform when I left the base, got a cab, went to a hotel and the first thing I did was put civilian attire on. There were plenty of stories floating around about the possibility of being confronted by protestors, what have you, people being spit upon, stuff like that. I didn’t wanna have anything to do with any of that, I just get the military stuff hopefully. It's kinda let my hair grow out a little bit and… something like that and just put civilian attire on and went to the airport Oakland. Actually I was flew home with a friend to his home in Washington and then made it back to Michigan from there. Interviewer: Alright. But that was the idea, get rid of the military stuff immediately. I don’t have anything to do with this. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you get back home in April, 1970. Now what do you do? Basically went back to work. Went back to the same company I worked at, I mean I had been short on money all this time. You know, wanted to get a car, or course lived at home initially. It was just to try and work my way back into the civilian life. I ended up going to college which was kind of an extension of my being a microwave radio repairmen. The people that were involved in that training—a lot of those guys were drafted initially and then decided to enlist because they could go to radio school. Lotta ‘em had some college level education so that was the talk of the day, you know. “What are you gonna do when you get back?” “Well, go to college.” There was a delay, I got a job in a factory making record players again and went to school and basically that was another thing that kind of helped me get back into things. There were a lot of other Vietnam vets that were going to Lake Michigan Community College here. We formed a little social group and we kinda had each other to lean on if you will, and we better understood each other than some little high school kid. There was a difference—just a total different experience. (1:20:35) Interviewer: Yeah. And did you have any kinda trouble transitioning back into being a civilian? �Stelter, LeeRoy I didn’t think so. But talk to my wife, there was problems. Interviewer: Now were you married when you were in Vietnam? Or did you get married afterward? I married when I got home. I got home in ‘70 and married in ‘72. I met my wife in ‘70 so her and I were dating within I’m gonna say a few months of my arrival back here so… she kinda helped me get back to some degree of normalcy, so. Interviewer: And then what kind of career did you go into? Actually went to LMC and transferred to Western Michigan University and ended up with a degree in Industrial Engineering. Worked in manufacturing for probably 30-35 years, so. Interviewer: Alright. Now if you look back on the time that you spent in the service, how do you think that affected you or what did you take out of it? I… you know it’s interesting I’m finding out now, 50 years later, that it affected me more than I thought. But it was kind of a struggle, the whole thing. Getting back and in how I lived my life and how I behaved was kind of set up by some of my—pretty much my military experiences. It kinda turned me into a certain type of person or what and I kinda worked through it. I thought I did a pretty good job. Interviewer: Okay. Were there positives that you took out of it? Well… The reason I went in was to get the training to get into electronics, my initial attempt in college my thought was that I was gonna be an electrical engineer, I ran into an electrical engineer at LMC and after discussing with him what an electrical engineer’s career was like I decided to become an industrial engineer. It probably—like I said the people that were in microwave radio training there were high level people than the other folks in the army. We had some folks that tried to become microwave radio repairmen but they just didn’t have the necessary skills and abilities to carry through the training. And so they kinda washed out. So it was a different group of people who were microwave radio repairmen, I’ll say that. Interviewer: Alright well the whole thing makes for pretty good story, so thank you for taking the time to share it today. Certainly. (1:23:45) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context StelterL2166V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stelter, LeeRoy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10 Title A name given to the resource Stelter, LeeRoy (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource LeeRoy Stelter was born April 7th, 1948 in Coloma, Michigan where he grew up and stayed until transferring his senior year from Coloma High School to St. Joseph High School. He graduated in 1966 and immediately went to work in a factory making record players. Stelter enlisted in the military after his cousin suggested it might help his career, taking an interest in the potential for a background in electronics as a microwave radio repairman. He started basic training in 1967 in Fort Knox, Kentucky and says he had no trouble adjusting to the army because his parents raised him to do as he was told. Two months later Stelter was flown to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey to begin his training as a microwave radio repairman learning basic electronics, how to operate gear, and solid state equipment. In 1968, Stelter recalled watching other groups perform drills preparing them for evacuations and riots in the wake of several political events. Stelter finished training at Fort Monmouth in May. He was deployed to Vietnam after a 30 day leave, assigned to the 327th Signal Company in Long Binh. After several months he was then reassigned to Vinh Long to replace a soldier who was lost in a mortar attack. Vinh Long was part of a radio relay set up by the signal company between Dong Tam and Can Tho, and Stelter recalled that it “was under attack every night…it was like the 4th of July, the whole place was incoming rounds, outgoing mortar fire” for three or four months, gradually deescalating. Stelter stayed at Vinh Long until June 1969 after which he took a 30 day leave before returning to Vietnam for a second time and being assigned to Can Tho. In all 8 months of his second term, he never heard any mortars or incoming rounds and was free to come and go from the village. In April 1970, Stelter returned home from Vietnam on a commercial flight and went back to work at the same factory he had as a teenager, making record players. In 1972, he married his wife who he said helped him return to some degree of normalcy. He attended Lake Michigan College before transferring to Western Michigan University and obtaining a degree in Industrial Engineering, after which he worked in manufacturing for the next 35 years. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Lest We Forget Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5e993c43c71c52c1f3f7dc06846d5aac.mp4 9359e18425cdd64ec46492111f8787df https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8573335095b62a35865987b46551b0a8.pdf 091927f32eb1317b0abde17d28d2a8ac PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Chuck Stark Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Chuck Stark of North Muskegon, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Alright, start us off with the easy stuff. Where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born in 1948 in Muskegon, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay. And did you grow up there? Veteran: I did. Interviewer: Okay. And what was your family doing for a living then? Veteran: My father was a machinist at Continental Motors and mom was the housewife. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: As happened during that time period. Interviewer: Alright. Now, as you—you were born in ’48 and so you are still in high school when Vietnam starts to ramp up— Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: --in ’65. Did you pay much attention to that before you went in the service? �2 Veteran: I did. I did. I have always been very active in governmental affairs and just very interested in that whole field. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you graduate from high school? Veteran: I did. 1966 from Muskegon High School—Muskegon Senior High. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do after you got out of school? Veteran: I did a number of things. I had—I have always enjoyed learning things, so I was a Brunswick pin setter mechanic, I did bartending, I did—worked at Continental Motors, the same place that made military equipment. So, a number of things. Interviewer: Alright. Did you consider going to college at that point? Veteran: I had. It was going to be expensive, and it would have taken me a couple years to get some cash together, but yes, I had planned on—I had no idea what I was going to do. But yes. Interviewer: Okay. Now, in the meantime, did you figure that sooner or later you were going to get drafted? (00:02:23) Veteran: There was that possibility. I knew that I had some choices. I decided to stay and if it happened, it happened. Interviewer: Alright. So, when did you wind up entering the service? Veteran: I went in…I believe it was in April of ’68. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, once you go in—now, where do they send you for basic training? �3 Veteran: I was in basic training at Fort Knox. And then AIT, which is Advanced Individual Training. Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Well, I want to talk a little bit about some of that. I guess, before you go to basic training, one of the things you get is a draft physical. Do you remember taking a physical when you went in, or ahead of time? Veteran: I do, somewhat. Interviewer: Okay. And do you remember, did it seem to be something that was very serious or pretty cursory or…? Veteran: I thought it was pretty cursory. And they didn’t even discover some of the things that I have. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Pretty obvious things. Interviewer: Alright. So, if you had a, you know, a more alert doctor at home, you might have gotten deferred for some reason or other? Veteran: There would have been a possibility of that. Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were doing the physical, did you notice anybody trying to game the system or find ways to…? Veteran: There was all kinds of talk when I went down and for that physical. And people were, even on the bus ride, were talking about gaming the system. Interviewer: Do you remember any ideas they had about how they could do that? �4 Veteran: Not right off hand. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you do that but then you go down to Fort Knox, Kentucky for your basic training. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: What kind of reception do you get when you arrive there? Veteran: I was not used to the…that type of screaming and yelling and hollering and basically bullying. I understand why they maybe thought they had to do it, but… Interviewer: So, it was a shock when you got there? Veteran: Very much so. It was definitely a cultural shock. (00:04:29) Interviewer: Okay. Were you in good physical shape when you went down there? Veteran: I was probably in fairly decent shape. I used to hike and canoe and that type of thing so… Interviewer: Okay. And then, how easy or hard was it for you to kind of adjust to life in bootcamp? Or did you not really? Veteran: I just—I…Yeah, I don’t know that I ever really adjusted to it because…Yeah, I don’t know that I ever adjusted to it. Interviewer: But you did get through it. Veteran: I never treated people that way when I was in the service. So…You know, I always tried to do it with respect. Obviously, there has to be some authority. And I guess I did that quite well, but I never treated people with disrespect. �5 Interviewer: Right. Okay. But did you kind of just go with the flow and do what they told you? Veteran: Yes, I did. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And how long was the basic training? Veteran: I believe it was 8 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. And then, was that—do you remember anything about the people who were your instructors? Had some of them been to Vietnam by then? Or do you not know? Veteran: I guess I didn’t know at the time. Interviewer: Okay. Now, your—did you notice any of them being not much older than you were? Like some of the junior instructors? Veteran: No, they were pretty much…I mean, I am a teenager still at the time and so none of them were at that point in time. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you go on now. Where do you go for advanced training then? Veteran: I stayed at Fort Knox. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And advanced training was for recon. And for anybody that doesn’t know what recon is, it’s look without being seen, hear without being heard, and run without being caught. So, it’s out there scouting. (00:06:27) Interviewer: Okay. �6 Veteran: So… Interviewer Because Fort Knox is primarily an armor school. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And so…but you weren’t using—you weren’t riding around in tanks or things like that at that point? Veteran: At that point, no. Interviewer: Alright. And the people who were training you to do the recon, were these people who had field experience? Or did you—they not tell you? Veteran: There was no discussion about that. Interviewer: Does any of it seem to have been geared toward Vietnam? Veteran: I am sure it all was. I am sure it all was. I can’t see—in going back, I don’t know about World War 2, but I know about the stuff in recon, and it is applicable in all wars. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so it’s kind of a core skillset or whatever that you learn that’s helpful. Veteran: Absolutely. Interviewer: Okay. Now, is that another 8 weeks? Veteran: I believe it was. Interviewer: Okay. And then where do you go next? �7 Veteran: Well, I went from there. I was selected to go to the Non-Commissioned Officers’ Academy. And— Interviewer: And where do they do that? Veteran: That was at Fort Knox also. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And at this point in time, there was more—it was geared more to armored and did a lot with armored vehicles and stuff at that point in time. And I…seems to me—I don’t know for sure—it could have been 12 weeks. There’s some spots in there that are a little blank. Interviewer: Yeah. But that is about right for an NCO academy so that would be consistent with what the infantry people did— Veteran: I think so. Interviewer: --at Fort Benning. Okay. So, what—were you basically—were you working with tanks or armored personnel carriers or both? (00:08:23) Veteran: Both of them. We were working with the Sheridan Tank, also. And they did that also in the AIT, worked with the Sheridan Tank. That was a particular one that had both conventional rounds, and the case actually was burnt up during the firing, so they didn’t have to worry about the case—the metallic cases and how to get rid of them. And it also fired Shillelagh Missiles. So, we—right out of the same tube. Interviewer: Now, did it have an anti-personnel round? I mean, like a beehive round or something like that? Veteran: Yes, they had all types of rounds. �8 Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And the Sheridan was—it had like an aluminum hull or something? It’s a lightweight tank? Or that—you didn’t really use that. Did you not use those yourself in Vietnam? Veteran: No, did not use those ourselves. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: But they were a composite material, so…In fact, those vehicles, if there was any damage to the vehicle, it had to be re-painted immediately with some special paints so they would know if anybody was playing with the—scraping some scrapings and…So…. They had to be taken care of immediately, any damage. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Within hours. Interviewer: Doesn’t sound like a great thing to have in a war in the tropics but okay. Alright. But then you also worked with armored personnel carriers… Veteran: Right. [M]113 primarily. And then I did training, instructing for the 114 and the 113. Interviewer: Okay. The 114s are the command version or…? (00:10:17) Veteran: It’s the lower version, the super low profile one. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Both vehicles were supposed to be amphibious. Didn’t work real well so it was a court martial offense to try that stuff. They had a board that came out in the front and that was �9 supposed to be the splashboard to keep the water from coming up and over the top and inside. But didn’t work real well. Interviewer: Alright. Now, you are doing that. Now, you’re getting kind of down toward the end of 1968 at this point. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: By the time that you finish all of that, do you get a leave to go home for the holidays and then off to Vietnam? Or what do they do with you? Veteran: Yeah. There was a leave to go home. And then sent over. Interviewer: Okay. Now, what was it like to go home at that point? You have been training, you are gearing up for Vietnam. And you’ve been paying some attention—I mean, the war has been going on, it’s been pretty ugly and so forth. So, what was that like for you to be back home and knowing you were heading to Vietnam next? Veteran: I can actually remember knowing that I had to project confidence for the family members back home. Interviewer: Now, had your father been in World War 2 or are you the wrong generation for that? Veteran: No. No, he was not. He was actually at this factory that was doing the tank engines. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And he was a key person there. So, he was not drafted. �10 Interviewer: Okay. So, how did your parents feel about your being in the service and going to Vietnam? (00:12:11) Veteran: Completely freaked. You know, both parents very, very gentle; very, verv loving souls. But just would be designed, you know…Anybody would have to describe them, it would be very gentle and a really beautiful human being. Humanity. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So now, what’s the process to get you to Vietnam? Your leave is up, now what do you do? Veteran: Went to California. Was there for a short period of time and then hopped on a big plane and flew to Alaska. We overnighted in Alaska and flew the next day. It is interesting because I just was looking for some things and I found a card that I wrote to my mom and dad during that flight. And there’s my appreciation for them, so incredibly deep, because they raised me right. And so, I found it yesterday. Interviewer: Wow. Alright. And now, did you go land some place else before you got to Vietnam? Did you go to Japan or…? Veteran: No, just straight—no, directly to Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay. Do you remember where you landed in Vietnam? Was it near Saigon? Veteran: Tan Son Nhut. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Tan Son Nhut Airport, Saigon. Okay. And at this point, did you know what unit you were joining? Veteran: No idea. Interviewer: Okay. �11 Veteran: They put you in a group and they just start—it’s like indoctrination into the country to get you used to some, you know, temperatures and just a whole bunch of stuff. And then it was just a few days later, it was probably 5 or 6 days later, and then they said, “Poof! You are going to D Troop, 17th Cav. You are going to be assistant platoon sergeant. And oh, by the way, there is some—” Interviewer: Well, before we get there, I just wanted to fill in a couple other details. (00:14:46) Veteran: Oh, okay. Interviewer: Because this was a good piece of the story that we have coming. Veteran: Sure. Interviewer: Okay. What was your first impression of Vietnam when you landed? Veteran: Extremely hot. Extremely dusty. It was not the monsoon season yet. And it was extremely dusty. And a lot of activity. A lot of high fractured energy. It was just on the edge. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you land at Tan Son Nhut. Now, did they move you to one of the other bases in the area for your orientation? Veteran: No. Well— Interviewer: Or do you think you just stayed right— Veteran: Well, no, it was the…Yes, it had to have been. I don’t remember. Interviewer: Because there’s large bases at Long Binh and Bien Hoa. And— Veteran: I had been to both of them. �12 Interviewer: Okay. And then there are also some divisional bases that weren’t too far away. Veteran: I was at Long Binh... Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: …and Bien Hoa, both. Interviewer: Alright. Now, and then I guess as you are kind of—do you remember anything about kind of going back and forth between them? Or what the place looked like, generally? Veteran: No, it is just a lot of sandbags, a lot of bunkers. When you see those perimeters and you see the barbed wire, and you see nothing outside the barbed wire. There is not a blade of grass growing and it’s quite a large depth to the perimeters. You see a lot of people running around. You see a lot of activities in and out. (00:16:38) Interviewer: Okay, so it’s still kind of a blur in some ways. A lot of that going on. Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Alright. So, you get—you’re assigned, okay, D Troop, 17th Cavalry. And what kind of unit was that? Veteran: That was an A cav vehicle—armored cav vehicle. So, unusual. There’s a lot of…lot of times, the recon is with a grunt outfit. This particular one was our vehicle of choice, was an armored cav vehicle, was a 113 vehicle. And crew of 5. And I was in the cupola. I was the commander of the vehicle. And crew of 5. �13 Interviewer: Okay. You said—now, they gave you an assignment and then they gave you some specific instructions. Veteran: Yeah. Specific instructions were there is some behavior that needs to be modified. These guys are outside the box, and they parade body parts around on the vehicles and parade body parts out the firebases that they go to. And if there is fire fights, they decorate the facilities or the vehicles with body parts. I found it horrifying. I still do. Interviewer: So, what did you do when you joined the unit? (00:18:15) Veteran: Well, I said—you know, I went there. I said, “Guys, I am it and I have been assigned to this particular unit with specific instructions. Don’t kill the messenger. This behavior is going to stop. And this is what I have been assigned to so don’t kill the messenger.” Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you joined the unit, do you report to a company area on a base first and then get assigned by somebody? Or how did that work? Veteran: It was for a short period of time. And I met the platoon leader. And like I said, it was a very small unit. And… Interviewer: About how many men in the platoon? Veteran: There was 39 guys in this unit. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And… Interviewer: And how many vehicles did they have normally? �14 Veteran: We had about 6. There were probably 8 vehicles there, but we had 6 that were probably running so that would be, you know, 30 guys. Interviewer: Yeah. So, 5 to a vehicle. Veteran: Yeah, 30 guys. You know, and there’s some other people, support and platoon leader, got the motor pool. Interviewer: Got mechanics or whatever. Veteran: Yeah, whatever. You know that type of thing. But we had generally about 6 vehicles. Interviewer: Alright. Now, what area were you operating in? Veteran: Well, we were assigned to—the D Troop, 17th Cav—was assigned to the 199th light separate brigade, which their mission was reactionary force. Where stuff was happening, got dumped in. Interviewer: Okay. (00:20:12) Veteran: And we were assigned to them. Interviewer: Alright. And what—were they operating in the III Corps area around Saigon or were they…? Veteran: Around Saigon, III, just wherever it happened. Wherever it happened. I did get to see, going through Saigon—so, traveling in and out back to the—back to our base back there. So, I got to go through Saigon on a number of occasions, which was really interesting. It’s like steroid or New York on—New York or Chicago—on steroids. And they would have all these little motorbikes running through. And they would have—the most we ever saw were 5 human beings clinging on a moped, going through traffic, in and out of traffic. It was just insane. And the �15 vendors, the food vendors, sometimes they had newspaper underneath their food. Other times it was just laid on the blacktop. And the stench of going through there with this food and…It was completely intense. The one thing I tried to do—I like to make light at times—there was a Shell gas station, and I had a Shell credit card. I tried to make a purchase so that I could have the receipt, but they declined it, for me to make the purchase. But that was one of the fun things in there. Interviewer: Because normally, the military personnel wouldn’t go into Saigon proper. But you would have orders at certain points to drive through it? Veteran: We had to go through, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we were just going through. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did your—did the 199th have a base camp in a particular place? I mean, were they at Long Binh or one of the bases? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yes. Correct. (00:22:14) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And it was there and then we would go out and we would go out to these firebases. The firebases loved to have us come in. They would have a horseshoe shaped impound for us to fit in and that was made out of multiple layers of sandbag. And we’d come right up to the top level of the deck so that the guns were just above it. The reason they loved to have us come out and they �16 would cater to us is the fire support. You know, the M-50 and the two M-60s and grenade launcher. And they loved that. Interviewer: Okay. And so, if they had that extra fire power, were they less likely to get hit if…at least not— Veteran: Yeah. I was, you know…But again, the reason that the sandbags were there is because we were bullet magnets, and RPGs. Interviewer: Yeah. Because an RPG could go right through an M-113. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Had one one time at a firebase. And a small skirmish started and the—it was probably…I am in the queue below and ducked down but it was probably about 5 feet over the top of my head. The thing—and in situations like that, there is so much energy. There is—I mean, when that stuff starts happening, that sense of humor pops out of the dumbest things. And I just remember, you know, just screaming to the guys. I said, “You see that one? It said made in Japan stamped on it!” You know? And everybody completely cracks up, which you are still in a firefight. And it’s just…that kind of thing, I mean, that’s what that stress…that’s the only way it can come out, at just dumb things. (00:24:15) Interviewer: Now, when you went out to firebases, you’ve got armored personnel carriers. So, you are driving to these, right? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Yeah, you are not going around in helicopters. �17 Veteran: No. Interviewer: Or anything else like that. Okay. How common was it for the roads to have mines or IEDs or things like that in them? Veteran: We were on the main highways. Much of the time, except when we would get out to these outlying areas, and they were there. You know, we had the one vehicle that got hit, you know. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then typically, what—if you are given—would you have patrols or actions that would just last a day or so? Or would you be out in the field with a group for an extended period of time? Veteran: We could be out in the field an extended period of time. We would be a day activity. Sometimes it was night ambushes, sometimes it was day setups. And when we are out there then, we were doing recon out of those places, so we weren’t just parked. We weren’t just parked someplace. We are out, we are doing recon. Interviewer: Okay. Now when you are doing the recon, are you doing that on foot the way you were trained to do it or are you going recon with the vehicles? Veteran: You’d go out to someplace and maybe it gets parked and maybe there is 4 vehicles and maybe 1 vehicle dismounts. Maybe 2 vehicles dismount. The other is there, and they are close enough that they can get to you within a few minutes to give you support. So, it just…whatever was presented to us. Interviewer: Alright. So, if you are out there and you are actually sort of doing recon, then how does that work? Physically, what are you doing? (00:26:03) �18 Veteran: You are out there to see what type of activity. You are out there…you are out there, and the recon may be, again, maybe it’s an ambush. Maybe you have got ambush set up. Day or night. And activities on trails. We are going out to see what type of…We had—you know, we have been out trying to get through triple canopy. Triple canopy is just unbelievable. It’s impenetrable, basically. So, they would send us out to see if we can bust through in certain spots and... But you are looking for activities. You are looking for…and you are looking for fortifications, you are looking for tunnels, you are looking for any type of activity. Interviewer: Okay. Were you operating in areas that had a lot of tunnels under them? Or did certain sectors? Veteran: Yeah, you don’t know. Because until you found them. But yes, there was, and we found a number of them. And yeah. Interviewer: And when you find them, were they usually unoccupied? Or…? Veteran: Unknown. But you just start, and you stay there. You maybe mark it and maybe they bring out some troops and maybe they start bringing tunnel rats in. Maybe they just say, “Have fun.” You know? So, you are using C-4 and just devastating sections of them. Interviewer: Okay. So, your unit didn’t have tunnel rats with them. You didn’t have guys who went in? Veteran: The 199th did but ours didn’t. Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, your job was just to go out and find what was out there? Veteran: Absolutely. Interviewer: And then it becomes somebody else’s problem. �19 Veteran: And yeah, sometimes we dealt with it and sometimes we didn’t. Interviewer: Okay. And how common was it to actually get into a fire fight or run into the enemy when you are out on one of these patrols? (00:28:16) Veteran: It’s…It depends on the area, depends on what we were doing. If we’re running roads, there would be a little bit of skirmish periodically. You just never knew. It wasn’t 100% of the time, but you didn’t know. I mean… Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you operating in areas that had a civilian population in them? Veteran: Absolutely. Interviewer: Alright. And what kind of impression did you have of the Vietnamese civilians? Veteran: I always—you know, and I did not have any problems with them. But I knew that when you get into villages, that there is sometimes sleepers that are in these villages. I always tried to treat with respect. And it was very hard for me to watch when some of the infantry guys would go out and interrogate and how these people were treated. It was very difficult for me to watch. I kept quiet. We would discuss things afterwards. But it was heart wrenching for me. Interviewer: Now, would the infantry— Veteran: Inner pain. Interviewer: Yeah. And would these guys have Vietnamese interpreters with them or— Veteran: Yes. Absolutely. �20 Interviewer: Alright. Now, they were—when things were kind of quieter or calmer and so forth, would the civilians be trying to sell things to you or that kind…? Veteran: Yeah, a lot of times the places that we were at, we were parked right next to—some of these civilians would even be inside a firebase. So, I spoke very, very, very little Vietnamese. I still remember some of it. And but I spoke very little of it. It was difficult. I knew the ones that spoke English. And we would have communications, we would have discussions. (00:30:36) Interviewer: Okay. Because there were reports that certainly—particularly in the armored cavalry units like this and so forth, you are driving along, people would come up and they try to sell you things or you would encounter prostitutes or things like that. Veteran: One of the things that surprised me was a young man came up, probably 10 or 11, something like that. And just, you know, he had a pillowcase and he said, “GI want to buy? GI want to buy pot?” You know? And I was like, “No thank you.” But it was—I used this young man later because I really, really like coconut. And they eat their coconut completely different. It’s green and they cut it open and it’s still—it’s like liquified jello inside. It’s not coconut that I am used to. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And I—that…My tastes, my textures? That just didn’t fit at all. I said, “Number 10. Number 10.” They rate everything; number 1 or number 10. He said, “Number 10, number 10.” So, I said, “Go get me some…” You know? And we tried this multiple, multiple times. One day when I was out, I actually found a piece of the brown coconut shell with the hair still attached to it. I stuck it in my pocket, and I get back. Next time he is there, I said, “Go buy me coconut. Number 1.” He goes, “Number 10. Number—” I said, “No, number 1. Number 1.” He said, �21 “Number 10.” I said, “Go get me some number 10 coconut.” And he came back with a pillowcase of coconut. So, at that point in time it was great. But they did sell things. They also enjoyed—we would toss them stuff. But the tropical bars? They hated them. And many times, they would throw them back at the vehicle when we were driving. Interviewer: Can you explain what a tropical bar was? (00:32:41) Veteran: A tropical bar was a treat, but it was just this horrid conglomeration that was just…And it was the tropical bar because you could have it in 120-degree temperature and it wouldn’t melt. Interviewer: Okay. Was it some kind of chocolate? Veteran: Yeah, there was—I think so. But it was just horrid. I mean, I don’t know anybody that ever enjoyed a tropical bar. Interviewer: Alright. Now, would you carry stuff along in your vehicle, sort of food of your own choice, or just a lot of C-rations? Or…? Veteran: C-rations. And my coconut. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And one day we had one where we were out—actually, cutting trail—and there was a banana tree. And we were in a fairly secure situation, had other vehicles, and I just said, “You know, hold up. We are going to…” So, I went over. We pulled up underneath this thing and there was a large bunch of bananas that was probably I am guessing about four and a half to five feet tall. Just this huge, gorgeous bunch of bananas. Pulled up underneath and I grabbed the machete, and I am whacking away at this thing and it just fell. It dropped on the deck. I was still supporting it, trying not to smash anything. The whole thing was loaded with a fire ant nest. �22 Interviewer: Oh… Veteran: So, the guys weren’t real happy with me. Everybody is swatting and I was just completely stung up and it was like, “No. No more bananas.” Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so you mentioned being at the camp sometimes and they might get attacked. Would the attacks be mortar attacks or— (00:34:33) Veteran: Mortar attacks. Start with mortar attacks, yeah. Mostly mortar attacks. Just with that kind of firepower that we had sitting here, they were not about to start coming in through that empty… Interviewer: Yeah. Or they might take a few RPG shots and then go away? Veteran: Absolutely. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: You know, it was difficult because in the one situation, the fire—I think it was Firebase Sue that we were at—there was some hooches with families living in them right outside. And it was right in my fire lane, you know, so I had to be very, very, very careful. But you never knew. And everybody is just like just don’t worry about it, just mow it down, but you never knew if they were informants or part of it or anything like that. So, nobody was coming over the wire, so I didn’t have to worry about it. But you always felt like—and in one situation, I just remember hearing people crying. Just sobbing intensely. You know, across this little bit of open area. You know, just because they were so terrified because it was not in a fire lane so…You know, it wasn’t that anybody was hit but just the terrified people. So… Interviewer: Alright. �23 Veteran: That stuff was so hard to deal with. Just…You know… Interviewer: Now, did you have any kind of orders or instructions about how you were supposed to treat or deal with the civilians, or did you just make stuff up? (00:36:24) Veteran: There were…There were situations. There was one…we had been out, and we had been running some trails and stuff, some roads, and I spotted some area that had fortification in it. It was basically a small bunker, and it was right on the edge of a waterway. And we had sampans going up and down in that all the time. And when we were approaching it that one day, a sampan took off. And it just like started scooting. We couldn’t even begin to catch up to it because we were in some real thick stuff. So, I just made a report. And the next day, they said, “Okay, go out there and check it out. If it’s fortification, it’s yours. Go play.” And so, when out and going out there. But on the way back that day, we ended up with a blown head gasket on our vehicle. So, I just said, “Okay, we are deadlined.” Told the guys, I said, “Put in an extra couple 5 gallons of water in just in case we have to move it,” because it was leaking. And I said—and I selected another vehicle and another crew— “You guys go out there.” Gave them the locations. And they went out. They were out there probably about three and a half, four clicks out. Something like that. And all of a sudden, you just got his—you know? They got hit in an ambush and just as you are approaching that area, it was through a small village. There’s probably 5 or 6 huts just along the edge of the road. And they got hit. So, I just said, “Light it up. Head gasket or not.” We went out there and I got out there right away. (00:38:34) Veteran: And I called in, I secured the area. And then I called in medevac. We had a couple guys that were injured. None of our guys but they always would send out 8, 9, 10, whatever they could load on top of the 8 cav, infantry guys to go out. So, they are out there. We have got it secured. Medevac is coming in, and the platoon leader came out. And he just said, “We are going to teach �24 these pricks a lesson.” He said, “Shoot anything that moves. I don’t care what it is. Anything that moves, shoot it.” And I am like wow. I am not used to this. Never happened in my family back home. Never happened in my circle. So, lo and behold, probably 15 minutes later, Papasan, who I thought was really old, me being a teenager at the time. He was probably in his late 30s, maybe even 40s, but I am thinking he’s ancient. Came out and walked over to the well—just a few short feet over to the well—and grabbed the bucket sitting there and poured some into a pot that he had and went back in the hooch. I didn’t fire. At this point in time, I was up for court-martial. And I just remembered the thing that came out of me at the time was do whatever you need to do, because I can live with myself. And so, fortunately, this had happened just shortly before my exiting the country. Interviewer: Okay. (00:40:42) Veteran: So, things never progressed to that point. And said, “I don’t care.” Interviewer: Now in general, was this the same platoon leader that you had started with? Or had he— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Same one. Interviewer: And did you—what kind of impression did you have of him, generally? Veteran: Lieutenant Kim…nobody ever gave him any grief because Lieutenant Kim was actually a sumo wrestler. Interviewer: Okay… �25 Veteran: Okay. I mean, his neck came right straight. He physically was a sumo wrestler and did that. And so, nobody ever gave him any grief. Nobody ever gave him any back talk. So, yeah, it was like oh, this ought to go over well. But the situation was is that it did resolve itself but—and it never really came back up again until on—just a few years ago. And I am talking time frame. I can’t tell you… Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran…Three years, maybe? I was at Battle Creek at the VA. And they were evaluating to see where I was at. And this was the psychiatrist, who was actually an officer. And asked me, he said “I know that you apparently didn’t have a lot of good things to say about your time in the Army.” And I said, “I did not.” He said, “Wasn’t there one single incident that maybe brought you a little bit of happiness?” And it didn’t take me more than a couple seconds to say, “You know, actually there was.” And I reiterated that story to him. (00:42:35) Veteran: And then he said, “Well, I understand that you think that you did something really good. In your heart, you believe that you did something that was great.” I said, “Actually, yes. I will agree with that 100%.” He said, “I have to tell you I disagree.” He said, “You taught your guys that they could disobey a direct order. You taught them that.” And I said, “I didn’t think it was illegal.” He said, “You taught them that.” And I had a large discussion with him. And I reiterated some of the things. And I said that “I even watched when Lieutenant Calley—the My Lai Incident—I actually stayed home and watched that when it was on CNN. We know what happened to him. I know I did something right.” And he said, “No.” He said, “I will give you this,” he said, “it was an unjust war but,” he said, “you know the reason it was an unjust war?” He said, “Because not enough people prayed about it. If more people in the United States had �26 prayed about it, then they would have gotten God’s attention and He would have heard them and then He would have made it a just war.” He said, “I will give you that.” Interviewer: The VA knows how to pick them. (00:44:10) Veteran: I am just like…my mind is completely destroyed. It just was…I…My thought process…He said a couple other things during that interview. He said one thing that—and he didn’t mean it the way it came out. I am not a violent person. I was on my feet. He was about twice the distance from me to you. He was around the other—a quarter of the way around the other side of the desk. And I was on my feet and it just like, at that point in time, my brain was gone. But—and I didn’t—I stopped because he just said, “What I meant was—” and I stopped, and I apologized. But it just—that was so much beyond my experience in this world. My experience that each and every breath is such a gift. I don’t get to—I don’t know if there is even one more. They may come in pairs, they may not. I don’t know, I have lost track. But that those breaths are so completely important and that I get to experience the Creator while those are happening, that was so completely above and beyond, I can’t even crack what his experience was. Interviewer: Yeah…And really doesn’t sound like he is following his own job description very well. I can’t think that he is. Veteran: I never knew, because I have asked a couple people, you know, are they supposed to tell me I am—did something wrong? I don’t know. Or are they just supposed to ask me questions? I don’t know. �27 Interviewer: They are just supposed to get information and evaluate you. Yeah. That’s pretty bizarre. But yeah, in the meantime, now you have refused to commit a war crime. And by and large, that’s really—soldiers do have that option. (00:46:18) Veteran: I thought so. And I still do. Interviewer: Okay. Now, before we get to sort of the big incident that sort of ends your stay in Vietnam, are there other memories or impressions that you’ve got from your time there that you haven’t brought into the story yet? Veteran: The country was very beautiful. I loved it. You know, I saw the people. I was very reluctant to engage with people, I think, until they engaged with me. I would throw a little dog bone out and if they came back with something, you know, and a couple times? Then I would engage with them. But I didn’t really know because somethings that had happened, somethings that maybe they had experienced with other soldiers, I didn’t want to try and force it. But so, I always wanted to talk to people but very reluctant to. And one thing that—when you say interest—the thing—the country was very beautiful. The scenery was very beautiful. I am an outdoor person. I am an avid outdoor person. And that was gorgeous. I would like to go back at some point in time. And the other thing that—the first thing that struck me when you said it was lightning. I mean, we get crack! Boom! The lightning in Vietnam is a ball of fire that goes across the sky, and it splits like an atom. It doesn’t come down and hit the ground. It splits like an atom, and you get these fire balls ricocheting across. So, that was absolutely phenomenal. I mean, that one, you know, I think of is—that was outrageous. But the country was gorgeous. Interviewer: Okay. Now, there are lots of stereotypes that people toss around about Vietnam and what went on there and so forth. One of them has to do with drug use. I �28 mean, did you observe any of that? I mean, you had said how the guy was trying to sell you pot at one point. Was there much of that going on? Did it create any actual problems for the unit or was it just— (00:48:33) Veteran: There was—I don’t know about the 199th. There was some in my unit. And I was just like, “Guys…” you know? “No. I mean, our life depends on this thing.” I am totally convinced that 3 o’clock in the morning—I didn’t smell it but totally convinced that they walked out to the perimeter someplace. They could have and I wouldn’t know about it if I didn’t see them for 5 hours or something like that. So, not—and I never saw it used in the field. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But it was used back at the bases and stuff like that. Interviewer: Okay. And what was the ethnic mix of the troop you were in? Veteran: Golly, we had everything. We had all types. We had some Asian people and we had Hispanic people and we had some blacks and we had…Trying to remember…But just—it was a good mix. It was, it—my particular crew was Caucasian, with three hippies. But so, no. I just had a really—just a—my crew was very responsive, and I knew I could trust them. Interviewer: In general, the guys in the company got along with each other? (00:50:17) Veteran: Yes, they did. I don’t ever remember…There was one night, we went back for stand down. And I remember this was a—these guys were partying. And three of the guys in D troop jumped the company commander back in the barracks. And there was quite a ruckus and I remember one of the guys running for help. And he hit—the powerlines on these things were maybe 7 feet off the ground, maybe. It was just a forked pole like somebody would put under �29 their mother’s clothesline, holding these pine lights. And he hit one of those poles and the wire started going and knocked out the power in half of this whole complete base. And so, these guys jumped the commander. And the same—just before that, guys—our unit—had this reputation for being a really rogue unit. And they closed down the place for these guys to go and have entertainment and drink. When we were coming in, two of the A cavs went down, surrounded the place, not crossfire, but they surrounded it and said, “You have 15 minutes to get this open or we will open it.” And the general did not appreciate that when he heard about it. So, he decreed that we would never come in for stand down again. And we were actually sent out the next day to herd some rogue elephants. Interviewer: Okay… Veteran: We didn’t find them, but we were sent out there. And they actually do have elephants running around. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: But it was just like this was a rogue unit. Interviewer: Okay, jumping the captain—were they just drunk and silly or did they not like the captain? Or…? (00:52:27) Veteran: We never spent that much time around him, so I don’t know. I don’t know that situation. Interviewer: And it wasn’t your guys who were doing that part? Veteran: No. No, it was not. �30 Interviewer: Okay. Because there are—you have occasionally incidents where they do attack officers or frag them or that kind of thing. Veteran: Absolutely. It was a situation. I didn’t have really any problems with it. The first sergeant was an ornery, ornery, ornery guy. And at one point in time, he just said, “Stark!” So, I went over there, and he said, “I don’t like your mustache.” He said, “On some people it looks good.” And I actually had a trim mustache. I mean, before I went in the service, I had a handlebar mustache that I could put behind my ears. But so, I said, you know, I said, “You know Sarge, I keep it trimmed.” He goes, “I know.” He says, “That—there’s guys here that have mustaches. On you, it just—personally, I don’t think it looks very good, so I think you should shave it.” I said, “Sarge, I am not going to do it. I am just not going to do it.” He said, “Really?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “You’re going to tell me you’re not?” I said, “Yeah.” So, then he just came out with a couple things and suggested that he could talk me into doing it, and I just said, “You know, Sarge,” I said, “Vietnam is a heck of a place to try and threaten a guy.” I just walked away. It wasn’t me…Apparently, well…I took offense at it, but it wasn’t me. Apparently that night, I understand, that somebody left the pin in a grenade and lobbed it into his bunker. And I am sure he thought it was me, but it wasn’t. Guarantee it. But he never talked to me that way again, but I just—it was like I am glad that it wasn’t something different. But… Interviewer: Right. Consider that a part of the climate. Veteran: Yeah. (00:54:37) Interviewer: Now, did—as you are—you did a stand down, which is just you go out of the field for a while, and you are—you can drink, and you don’t have to be on guard duty for a little while. �31 Veteran: Three or four days. Interviewer: Yeah. That kind of thing. Did you ever get an R and R, or did you leave the country too soon for that? Veteran: I left the country too soon. Interviewer: Alright. Alright, now…So, how does your tour come to an end? Veteran: Well, on the 23rd of June in ’69, which has always been a very infamous day. I will have to tell you about this. Grabbing a runway motorcycle that was going to run down my niece and nephew. My sister decided she wanted to try my motorcycle. And so, I grabbed that, got a broken arm. A car accident riding with a friend of mine. And he pulled out and a truck nit the front of his Mustang, tore the front of the Mustang off. Several different things that occurred, always on the 23rd. My family would always say—not my mom and dad but my sisters and brother-in-laws and the rest of—would say, “Well, we won’t see you tomorrow, but we will see you on your birthday.” My birthday is on the 24th. So, we won’t see you tomorrow, but we will see you on your birthday. They wouldn’t even come around. So, 23rd of June…But it was like, you know, on the 22nd that night and we get to this place. And we went up to—we were going up to support the Big Red One Division. (00:56:14) Veteran: And so, spent the night in the barracks at a base up there. And we were at Xuan Loc. And so, we are there. And I just got this feeling. And I wrote this letter to my mom and dad. You guys have been great, love you a whole bunches, thank you for what you have given me, what you have shown me. If nothing happens, it’s okay. Just keep it. The next day, 23rd, and it wasn’t something where I was aware of the 23rd and this always happens, so I am overly cautious, I caused something to happen. We are out there, and we had found a bunch of—I had spotted �32 some tunnels. I had this ability, and I would—and I spotted these air vents. So, I called it in, said, “What do you want to do?” And they said, “Have fun. We are not sending anybody out right now.” So, they said, “Have fun.” So, we played. And this happened and then probably we received a little bit of fire. Probably 20 minutes later. Just a few rounds. It did actually shoot the antenna off that was sitting next to—when we are riding in those things, the driver is inside. I have got a board. I am behind an armored guard, with a 50 there, but I am out of the vehicle. My feet—I have a board across the top of this thing. I am sitting on this thing. I put a tractor seat on it, so I had a spring and everything. Sitting on top of that. And the guys—my grenadier is riding on the hatch alongside of me and my two guys are up in the back. (00:58:24) Veteran: Everybody just slides in when this thing happens. And so, the antenna got shot off. So, we stopped for a few minutes, and I repaired the antenna. I am a ham radio right now, ham radio operator. I would have to actually look up the formula for remembering how to cut match a length of wire because it is busted. It is completely—so, I wired this thing together, I stripped the wire off a light inside the vehicle, cut and matched it, taped it on and put a splint on it just like you do for a broken hand or something like that. And it wasn’t until I saw the pictures of the devastation that I remembered that happening. I mean, Rick was right there, and the round was shot off. And it shot it off—he was within probably 12-13 inches of where that thing got shot off. So, now we are riding along, back on the road again. We got radio communications; we can talk with everybody. And we got hit and ambushed. The ambush was triggered. They went back afterwards and pieced it together. They needed to know what they were using to do this devastation. What they found out was frags from—it was one of our aerial 500 pounders that was obviously a dud. It didn’t land, it didn’t go off when it—or detonate—when it went off or landed. Interviewer: Yeah. �33 Veteran: It lifted that thirteen and a half ton vehicle up in the air eight and a half feet, according to the crews behind us, spun it around 180, blew it backwards and deposited it 40 feet away from where that thing went off. It ripped the bottom out of it. It stayed upright. It didn’t tumble because it hit right underneath. (01:00:32) Interviewer: Now, were the men inside the vehicle at that time or were they on top of it? Veteran: I don’t know for sure. I am guessing they were probably on top of it, except for the driver. That whole floor just came completely out of that thing. There is pictures of it that are just—it’s phenomenal. And one of the pictures was taken through the back hatch. You’ll see a long piece of metal that looks like a U channel. That’s actually the floor that was over the left tread. And the bogie wheel used to ride inside of it. So, I was in the queue below. I was the cork in the bottle. When that pressure blew up and the whole thing—I got launched 45 yards. I don’t remember it. I apparently stood up out there during the firefight. I don’t remember it. It wasn’t me because I don’t do things like that. And this really wasn’t me because I apparently stood up for the second time during the firefight. And don’t remember it. My driver crawled out there, because he yelled at the crew behind. He said, “Where’s Chuck? Where’s Chuck?” and he said, “They told me the general direction in which you exited the vicinity.” And when you see the pictures, the grass is probably 5 feet tall. And I am out there someplace. And when you look at it with looping, you can actually see the trail that they went out and brought me back. So, they brought me back. And another picture is when they are bringing me back and they are just carrying me back and setting me down. I am behind part of the vehicle so you can see my upper torso and head. And my wife, my lovely lady of all these years now—we were married in ’71. (01:02:33) �34 Veteran: She looked at that picture and she said, “Just like you: always have to be the center of attention.” So, thanks, love. But my left gunner was blown off: a 45-degree angle backwards. That vehicle went up, went over the top of him and came down and the back half of the vehicle hit his leg and broke his leg. It was soft and swampy and everything like that so it just pile drove it in. And then when the treads started hitting, the rest of it—or any of the bottom of it—just started hitting it. So, it didn’t cut his leg off or anything. He had a broken leg. But to have thirteen and a half tons of vehicle come over the top of you, literally over the top of you, and land and break your leg. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were the—any of the other guys hurt too? Veteran: My left gunner was. Had that busted leg. My right gunner had a little bit of a crease. And my driver was inside, Rick was on the hatch alongside of me. Rick flew forward. Driver— the whole floor came out and pushed him up in one piece. And so, it protected him. And they collided in mid-air about eight feet up and then kept each other together. And right gunner went off the right side so my left gunner got the broken leg and that was it. Interviewer: Okay. Now what kind of injuries did you have? (01:04:04) Veteran: Well…First of all, landing headfirst, my helmet was crushed. My—I had TBI: Traumatic Brain Injury. I do well. I do well. I had torn diaphragm so I couldn’t breathe real well. Busted left arm. And I had propelled shots, left arm and left side. That’s apparently from standing up. Scorched my left side. Actually, went in the flak jacket, came out the flak jacket and so it slowed it down enough that it went into my elbow. It hit the bone and tore up some bone and stuff like that. The lead was still inside. So, going through probably this much length of flak jacket instead of just through it, it saved it, my left arm. So… �35 Interviewer: So, you are in pretty bad shape at that point, once the initial shock wears off. Veteran: I don’t remember any of it. I don’t remember any of it. In fact, when I found my driver, we talked the very first time afterwards. And he said, “What do you remember?” And I said, “Nothing.” And he said, “You kept asking me what happened,” and he said, “I would tell you.” And he said that he actually thought that I was going to move my—lose my left eye. It was completely blood, and it was sort of moved in a real weird angle. But he said, “You kept asking and I kept telling you.” He said, “Couldn’t be more than 15-20 seconds later, you were asking what happened.” I didn’t remember it. I didn’t remember anything until the—being thrown into a chopper. And they had been at a previous firefight. And I was just loaded in on top. (01:06:24) Veteran: So, that was—that one I choose not to remember. And but I got to the hospital, and I remember getting there. And this was the time of Ben Casey, where you see—you are laying on a core—and the gurney hits the doors, the doors open up and all you see is the hospital from the ceiling view. I don’t remember anything until late that night. And it was hours, hours, hours later. And it was at nighttime, and I kept asking what happened there, what happened to Rose, because I knew he had that broken leg. They loaded him in at the same time. So, I kept asking and they couldn’t tell me. They couldn’t tell me. So, I went looking for him. I just got up and went looking for him. And it’s all the Quonsets like you see on MASH. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: All these adjoined. I am walking through all of these things and just looking for him. And I finally saw him in a bed, and I woke him up. And he was okay. He had a broken leg. And I was talking to him and all of a sudden, panic broke out in this hospital. They are hollering and screaming, they are yelling. And this is, you know, it’s just like I had no idea what was going on. �36 And this goes on, it goes on, it goes on. Finally, somebody realized I was the one they were looking for. I apparently pulled my IVs, my breathing, and was walking around. And they were screaming at me. They are just furious. And all of a sudden, it was just like they have sort of realized then that yeah, maybe it wasn’t all my fault. But I think it was funny at the time. And I still think it is funny. I didn’t mean to freak them out but just that that happened. So, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so how long do you think— (01:08:24) Veteran: Knee; torn knee. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: So… Interviewer: So, how long are you in the hospital in Vietnam? Veteran: That time frame I don’t know. I can’t— Interviewer: You’d guess days as opposed to weeks? Veteran: Oh no, it’s probably weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I was medevaced out. The reason they couldn’t let me go before was I still had a torn diaphragm. They did nothing to—they never did anything to fix it. But they couldn’t—I couldn’t breathe real well so when you are in an aircraft at altitude…So, I stayed there enough that they could—they figured I could handle the short hop to Japan. So, they did a short hop to Japan. And then I was there for—in Japan—for a while. And I was there through a good part of July probably. �37 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I don’t know for sure. And then I could—at that point in time, I took the big hop back, which was horrendous. I was on a stretcher, and you are stacked up in these ships. Literally, you are this high. I couldn’t turn over because my shoulders were too broad. I couldn’t even get on my side. So, from Vietnam all the way back to Indiana, Illinois, maybe it was—I was probably in Illinois. Interviewer: Did you go to Great Lakes Hospital eventually? (01:10:11) Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Then they took a short hop to Great Lakes. But they did this thing, and I am laying—it is probably 27 hours. Interviewer: Wow. Veteran: Laying, and you can’t do anything. You can’t turn, you can’t…That was—and then being just still in a lot of discomfort. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: That was horrendous. Interviewer: Did they have people tending you at all? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Or just—you are just stuck on there and— �38 Veteran: You are there. You are there. I don’t remember seeing a single person during that flight. Yeah, you are just strapped in. I couldn’t turn; I am strapped in. Interviewer: Wow. Veteran: So, that was not fun. Interviewer: After your original incident in the Vietnam hospital when you got up out of bed, did they strap you down there or did they just tell you don’t do that again? Or…? Veteran: Yeah, they were—they did not—they never tethered me down. And I think probably because at that point in time I was probably somewhat lucid. Probably mostly lucid. But yeah, they did not. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, when you get back then and you are at Great Lakes, now were you confined to a bed, or can you get up and move around or…? Veteran: No, I can get up and move around. I am still having difficulties. I have major back injuries from that. I have retrolisthesis where the—if you think about the spine lining up like this, but then if you go like this and it doesn’t line up, which is retrolisthesis, now that spot in between where the cord runs is starting to pinch. So, I have neuropathy of both feet, lower extremities, and hip and stuff like that. So, yeah, it…I am there. I am actually able to walk around. I asked, “How did I get to Great Lakes Naval Hospital?” When I was at Japan, they put me in a bed there and I looked down and looked at this guy and it looks like a chief warrant officer that I knew. And he’s got the blanket sort of pulled up and he, you know, at some point in time he rolls over. It is him! He wakes up. “Frank!” “Chuck! What are you…”? You know, it’s just like…So, we are talking. He says, “You know where you heading?” I said, “I don’t have a clue.” (01:12:34) �39 Veteran: He said, “Where do you want to go?” and I said, “I’d love to go to Great Lakes Naval Hospital because I have family, I have cousins, that live about 16 miles away.” I said, “That would be so cool.” I ended up with orders cut for Great Lakes Naval Hospital. So, I am the only Army guy in a Navy base. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I had to be there at Monday morning at 7 o’clock. And if I needed to see the doctor, I had to be there at Wednesday at noon. The rest of the time I was signed out. And I spent the time with family. So… Interviewer: It does remind me…Before we came into the session, you mentioned that when you were in Vietnam, you actually ran into somebody you knew on the same firebase? Veteran: Oh yeah. I think it was Firebase Sue. And mortar attack, everybody cutting loose. And they are doing free fire in this. I am staying away from the village part of it. They are in my zone if I swing but I am staying away from it because there was nobody coming over the wires. And called cease fire, called cease fire the second time. It just comes down the chain. And called cease fire the second time and probably not more than 10 or 12 feet to my position where we are in the vehicle inside of that barricaded area, call cease fire the second time. And when I look over to the bunker there and a guy looks at me at the same time. Up on top of this bunker is Tom Deary from my graduating class in Muskegon High School. And we are just both like, “Chuck!” “Tom! What are you doing here?” So yeah, that was the only person I ever ran into there that was definitely from Muskegon. (01:14:30) �40 Interviewer: Alright. Go back now to the main story. So, basically you spend several months at Great Lakes, kind of recuperating. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Now when you got out, were you listed as disabled or partially or…? Veteran: Oh no. Interviewer: Did they—you’re just out? Veteran: I am out. And now I am at the hospital, and I am seen at the hospital for my torn knee. I am walking with a cane. And back treatments some of the time, most of the time not. And they are trying to figure out what to do with the neuropathy, this type of thing. But I was assigned to a training unit. So, now I am training new troops. Interviewer: Okay. Where were you doing that? Veteran: At Fort Knox. Interviewer: Okay. So, you go back to Fort Knox after— Veteran: Back to Fort Knox, yep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that’s where—and I am being looked at at the hospital. They are not really doing anything, but I am being—I am in and out. And I am walking with a cane. And so—and I am training troops, with a cane. Interviewer: Okay, how did that go? �41 Veteran: Unusual, but I could impart a little bit of things. I tried—if I saw somebody that had a horrible attitude—I can’t envision why anybody being drafted would ever have a horrible attitude, but anyway. And I could maybe make a little bit of difference. But I could—and I would see people, you know, maybe handling a weapon differently or doing something differently. You know, hey, think about this. So, maybe I did some good. I don’t know. Interviewer: Okay. So, you weren’t really in charge of a group of people, you were just kind of helping out with various training sessions and that kind of thing. (01:16:19) Veteran: Yeah. And I was part of this group also. I was selected as an aggressor. Somebody has to be the aggressor for training. And the aggressor—I took it easy on the new guys, but we also did the aggressor for the NCO academy. Interviewer: Now, when you say aggressor, do you mean someone who is playing the enemy when you are doing training exercises? Veteran: Absolutely. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Veteran: And I did not take it easy on those guys at all. It became…There was a decree that I would never go out in the field as an aggressor again. Interviewer: Okay... Veteran: There was an exercise. And there was a full bird colonel on this exercise. And I just…I can hide really, really, well. I really can. And I hid well, and the pine tree was not any taller than you sitting in that chair. And I was hidden underneath this thing and curled up underneath and to the side. They were coming right at me. I knew they were going to have to turn. And they turned �42 and went right past me. They were probably 6 feet away. Everybody was inside the vehicle. I came up behind them, popped the smoke grenade and threw it inside the vehicle. Apparently, the full bird colonel did not appreciate this, and my people did not rat me out. But it was decreed that the person that did this will never ever go out as…I sort of got revenge on the full bird that time. Interviewer: So, how long do you think you spent at Fort Knox? (01:18:25) Veteran: Altogether? Interviewer: Mhmm. Well, no I mean that last stint. Veteran: Oh, in that last group? I think I probably left there maybe like in…September. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Or maybe October. Interviewer: Alright. So, because I guess when we were doing the original laying out, I thought you had initially said that you got out in—I guess you finished in June in Vietnam. That was when that ended, but then you have…So… Veteran: January 20th I got out, in ’90. Interviewer: Okay. Or…’70. Veteran: Or not—yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, you basically did still have your two full years, or… Veteran: Real close. Interviewer: Or there abouts. Okay. Yeah, but the last months of that were spent at Fort Knox. �43 Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Now, I am a little surprised that they kept a guy with a cane, but…Or did you eventually not need the cane by the time you were done? Veteran: I did not need the cane by the time I was done. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And I assume they didn’t make much of an effort to get you to re-enlist? Veteran: They saw no need for me because not only did they not do anything, they did not repair the knee. They didn’t repair anything. They didn’t even repair the torn… Interviewer: Your diaphragm. Veteran: …diaphragm. I am still sucking air. I am still. You know? That was not fixed until much later. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: That wasn’t fixed until—the first time that it was attempted was by a civilian doctor in 2010. So, I went all those years with a torn diaphragm. Eventually, in 2010 the stomach ended up above the diaphragm in the lung area. So, it was figured at that point in time somebody should try something. (01:20:24) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So, that was the first of four operations to resolve this. Interviewer: Wow. Alright. So, what do you—now, once you get out then in 1970, now what do you do? �44 Veteran: I went to school. And I—the only way I got out early was I applied for an early out for education. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: They are still keeping me. They can’t do anything with me, but they are still keeping me. And so, at that point in time then, I applied for an early out. And went to school in Muskegon. And decided that, at that point in time, I started doing some computer stuff. And that’s back when the computers were humongous, and they were still doing cards. And I learned Fortran and COBOL, stuff like that. I did a couple sessions there and then I decided that I wanted to do something differently. And really, really good friend of mine—just a very, very beautiful soul—had mentioned something about well, maybe you could do something with…because you like the outdoors, how about doing something like conservation officer? Or something like that. There was nothing available at the time, but I did choose environmental. I have always been very active in environmental stuff. So, I went and I got two degrees in environmental. And when I left there, then I was hired as a health officer for Lapeer County in Michigan. And was there for a number of years. And I have been multitude of—multitude of jobs and vocations. Security, personal security, and just all kinds of stuff over the years. (01:22:34) Interviewer: Okay. Now, you have also done…You were telling me a little bit about a program you were involved—helping with prisons, or…? Veteran: Oh! Oh, that’s something that I have been asked to do recently. Interviewer: Okay. Explain that. Veteran: Yeah, that one there…It’s…We have a friend that just actually wrote and is directing this program. And it’s being accepted. It was done originally for prisons. We actually got to �45 interview a prisoner from Texas. And we had a videotape from the warden of this particular prison. And it’s the real hole in Texas. And he just—he’s putting this word out to other people and saying, “Hey, what you need to do is you need to look at this program.” And it’s a tensession class. And I have been asked to think about being a facilitator and take each person through the class. The second half of the class is reflection from what you just heard. And the thing that has really baffled everybody is the thing that people are talking about: what was your favorite part of this class? The reflection. Now, can you envision hard-core criminals—one included, which is—that I know of—is a murderer, saying, “I get to tell somebody about what I feel now. I get to tell, and I get to help other people understand what they are feeling.” So, there is a possibility of this happening. It just was sort of approached to me this last week. And I am going to go through the training and… (01:24:38) Interviewer: Well, what is the class itself? What does that consist of? Veteran: You and your feelings and you being a human. Teaching people humanity. And when they understand… Interviewer: Don’t play with your microphone. It makes noises. Veteran: Oh, sorry. Understanding, you know, what they are feeling. And these people are actually graduating from this class. And now, I have been told that the director has said, “Let’s look at going to vets’ groups because why not?” You know. I mean, and I have been very active with Purple Heart Groups and stuff like that. So, I am excited about it, and I will keep you updated, and I will let you know how it works. Interview: Okay. So, it is basically geared toward people who have gone through very traumatic or difficult things. Just sort— �46 Veteran: Absolutely. Interviewer: And then, just finding ways to sort it out or make sense of it. Veteran: And were they feeling comfortable with themselves? And I guess I don’t need to have these drugs right now. I mean, how often do you hear this kind of stuff? So, I will keep you posted on that one. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, the psychiatrist there in Battle Creek had, I guess, asked you the question about did you find anything positive in your military time. I would, I guess, put it in a different way. I would ask well, overall, how do you think your time in the service affected you? I mean, you have talked about the physical side of things and stuff you have carried. But otherwise, how do you think it affected you? (01:26:15) Veteran: There’s really no way to get rid of it, the stuff that you are holding inside. So, even seeing how others were treated, I mean that stuff just stays with you. It was not a positive experience. Yeah, a lot of experience about doing the job. A lot of experience about understanding even more than what I had. I have always had an excellent way with nature. I can see something that doesn’t belong there. Maybe it’s a color and maybe it’s a pattern. Maybe it’s a straight line. Mother Nature doesn’t have straight lines...Something like that. So, sharpening that? And that even came in: understanding and visually—visual acuity. Some people call it hypersensitivity. In this case here, my hypersensitivity has really allowed me to pick up on visual cues or stuff like that. When I was doing personal security for individuals, hypersensitivity is a good thing. Interviewer: Okay. �47 Veteran: If it is used properly. So... There is that. But it wasn’t something that I relished at all. I will tell you how much I didn’t relish it: when I was not in training, even when I was in training, and when you are cooperating and doing well, they allow you to have the weekends off. I actually took off and would go from Fort Knox to Muskegon, Michigan. We are supposed to be within about 50-mile ranges. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But I didn’t. I was gone every—I think I only—figured out one time—only spent 3 weekends on Fort Knox. I—it was nothing there for me. It just wasn’t anything I wanted to do. So, it was...I gained some positive things like the hypersensitivity and maybe understanding people a little bit more. When you see people that are going through—and I know when I am going through, maybe I have a little bit more patience. So… Interviewer: Yeah. (01:28:41) Veteran: Maybe? My wife might not think so, but I do. Interviewer: Well, you managed to stay married since 1971, so… Veteran: Absolutely. She’s been the…. she gets the—all of the kudos. Interviewer: Right. Yeah. All the credit for that. Alright. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Well, it does make for a very good story, so... And you actually told it well. So, thank you very much for coming in today and sharing. Veteran: Well, thank you for the opportunity. (01:29:13) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context StarkC2183V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stark, Chuck Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02 Title A name given to the resource Stark, Charles (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource Chuck Stark was born in 1948 in Muskegon, Michigan. He graduated from Muskegon Senior High School in 1966. He joined the Army in April 1968 and completed his basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Chuck remained at Fort Knox for his advanced individual training, which was focused on reconnaissance. He then attended the Non-Commissioned Officers’ Academy at Fort Knox as well. Chuck was sent to Vietnam in 1969 and was assigned to the D Troop, 17th Cavalry Regiment. While in Vietnam, he was involved in various skirmishes and reconnaissance missions. On June 23rd, 1969, Chuck sustained several injuries when the vehicle that he was riding in was ambushed and blown apart. Due to his injuries, he was sent from Vietnam to Great Lakes Naval Hospital in Illinois to recuperate. Once he recovered sufficiently, he was assigned to a training unit at Fort Knox to finish out his time in the military. He left the Army in January 1970. Chuck is currently actively involved with a reformative program that is designed to help people in the prison system. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/10190d6feae8910cecff64eae9cfe2b7.mp4 5cd4ce39265193aa12b0d81a823f6449 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5837637979ad7c2360bfdff1950811b8.pdf aea8d81526bf151132d7e65c631e3d10 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Wesley Spyke Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interview length: 2:12:37 Interviewer: We are talking today with Wesley Spyke of Norton Shores, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Wes, start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: Well, I was born—I am a native of Muskegon, Michigan. Born in 1948 to Delores and Frank Spyke. I have two older sisters of which have been deceased now, but they too are also natives of Muskegon. Interviewer: What was your family doing for a living when you were a kid? Veteran: Well, actually, my mother was a registered nurse, and my father was a journeyman tool layout inspector for Continental Motors at the time. So, I came from a well-educated family, I guess. Interviewer: Alright. I mean, did your father have a college education or just a lot of technical training? Veteran: There was a lot of technical training in there. You know? �2 Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And did you finish high school? Veteran: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Interviewer: What year did you— Veteran: 1966. Interviewer: Okay. And then what did you do when you graduated from high school? Veteran: Well actually, I went—I graduated when I was 17. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, when I turned 18 years old, the lure of money, you know, grabbed me and I went to work for Brunswick Corporation, as a matter of fact. And I got laid off of there and then I bounced from Campbell, Wyant and Cannon Foundry to, you know, and I tried going to MCC and I realized that I was not college material. Interviewer: Okay, that is Muskegon Community College. Veteran: Muskegon Community College, yes. So, I didn’t really get involved in the apprenticeship until after Vietnam. So, I was raised in the housing projects in Muskegon. My mother got cancer early on and I remember as a very young child that she couldn’t work anymore. And so, with that being said, of course my father was the main breadwinner. But we were not poor in the sense of being poor. (00:02:40) Interviewer: Yeah. You had a roof over your head, you had food to eat. Veteran: Yeah, yes, absolutely. Even in the projects. And you know what, I always had clean clothes. I always got a new set of clothes before school. New shoes and that type of thing. But �3 my sisters, my oldest sister is 13 years older than I was. And my middle sister was 9 years older than I was, so I was kind of the baby of the family, and I was spoiled rotten by them. And I mean literally rotten. So, they were very good sisters. And I love them dearly. Interviewer: Alright. So, in that period, kind of ’66, ‘7, ’68, before you go in the service, how aware were you of the Vietnam War? Veteran: Well, the media of course…In the media, I should say, Vietnam was raging at that time. ’67, ’68…Tet Offensive in ’68 was probably one of the bloodiest years in the Vietnam conflict, if you will, the Vietnam War. And I knew that my draft number was going to come up, so I started looking at all the other branches of the service. Well, I didn’t want to go in the Marine Corps because I knew where they were going. And I didn’t want to go in the Army; I knew where they were going. And the Air Force…and I don’t know why I didn’t look at them any further, but I really didn’t. I have always wanted to be in the Navy. (00:04:15) Veteran: So, I had gone down, and I talked to the recruiter. And he said, “You know, we have a reserve program that if you decide to enlist, we will keep you here for a year and allow you to get some type of rank before you go active duty, which is a 2-year stint in the regular Navy.” And I thought, well, that doesn’t sound bad. He says, “However,” he says, “if you get the greetings from the U.S. government,” he said, “do not open that envelope.” He says, “Bring it down here and we will get you enlisted in the Navy.” Well, at that point in my mind, I said, “I am not going to Vietnam. I am not going to do it. So, I am going to enlist in the Navy.” Interviewer: Right. �4 Veteran: Thinking that I was going to get onboard the USS New Jersey or something, the big battlewagon and all this business, and go to the Med. I was going to go to the Mediterranean, and we were going to go on goodwill tours and all that. Ah, no; that didn’t happen. Interviewer: Okay, so when did you sign up? Veteran: I signed up in April of ’68. And it was for a 6-year jaunt, but they said 2 years of it would be active— Interviewer: Right. Veteran: --and 1 year kind of semi-active. You’d go through your training. And then whatever time was left over, you would do that in the Reserves, should you come back. I remember going in. They said—because in the Navy, you have a rank and you have a rate, or a job what they call you. And I—my mom was an RN, so I thought I will be a hospital corpsman. You know. So, I started my studies. They sent for a book, you know, and you have to go through this book, and they would give you testing. And I remember these guys teasing me. (00:06:24) Veteran: On the drill weekends, they’d tease me, “Hey, you are going to go with the Marines,” and all this other kind of stuff. I said, “No, I am not going. No, I am going to be a corpsman.” He said, “That’s what we mean. You are going to be with the Marines.” He said, “Because that’s what the medics, for the Marines Corps, that’s where they get their medical.” I said, “No...” So, I had gone into the administration office. I told them, I said, “I…wait a minute,” I said, “a hospital corpsman,” I said, “are they—do they go to the Marine Corps?” He said, “Well, the Marines are a division of the Navy.” He says, “That’s where they get their hospital training, their medical.” And I said, “Well…” I said, “Would you go to Vietnam?” he answered, “Well, you—Wes, you probably will go to Vietnam.” And I said, “No, no I am not going there. No, you don’t �5 understand. I didn’t sign up for this. I’d have gone…” And they said, “Well, you’re allowed one change.” I said, “Okay.” I said, “Give me the form.” So, like an idiot, you know, I signed the form. And they said, “And we will give it to you—we will let you know when you finish your drill for the weekend.” I remember walking out the door and I stopped, and I turned around and I said, “What—by the way, what did I sign up for?” And he said, “Well, gunner’s mate, guns.” And I said, “Well,”—this was a shoe in gym for me. I am going to be on the USS New Jersey or a heavy cruiser or something like that. I am going to work on the big guns. Well, no; that didn’t happen either. Interviewer: Alright. Let’s—to kind of pull the story together a little bit. So, you enlist in April of ’68. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Do you go off to bootcamp right away? Or does that take a while? Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And so, where do you go for bootcamp? (00:08:09) Veteran: Great Lakes. I went to Great Lakes, Illinois. Interviewer: Alright. And what did bootcamp consist of at that point? Veteran: Well, basically it was drilling and taking care of your uniforms and basically a lot of stuff to get you to fall in line with the disciplines of the United States military, from a naval standpoint. So… Interviewer: Alright. And how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to that? �6 Veteran: It was easy for me. I mean, I liked the military life. It wasn’t as hard as the Army or the Marine Corps, I don’t think. Certainly, the Marine Corps it wasn’t as hard as. But yeah, I did well in boot camp. Interviewer: Okay because you mentioned that you were the baby of the family and spoiled rotten. I was wondering about the transition from that to being in Navy boot camp. Or had you just done enough work and things like that that you were used to doing what you were told? Veteran: Well, doing what I was told didn’t really do much but…I liked the military, and I just never had a problem with it. I could see what the disciplines were and why they were the way they were. You know? So, you know, I really didn’t have a problem with that. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did the boot camp last? Veteran: Probably about 3 months, I guess? Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And what kind of act—did you get any training in anything? Veteran: Oh yeah. You know, they bring you through the gas houses you know and all that business. But for the Navy, part of that training was on the USS Havre, which was docked at…and at some point, it was supposed to go out for a 2-week cruise and that never happened. It was being worked on and all that, so it just really didn’t happen to do the cruise. However, we did have to do the shipboard training: where the compartments were, the ladder ways, you know, and bulkheads. Of course, the armament that was on there and all that business. But a lot of it consisted of painting. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:10:20) �7 Veteran: There as a lot of painting involved. Interviewer: Alright. And what type of ship was that? Veteran: That was a PCE, a patrol craft escort. So, it was a little bit smaller than a destroyer. We put the rigging up for the flags, you know, for Memorial Day. And then we were allowed to go into Chicago. Well, we didn’t have any money. I was there with a guy from Jackson, Michigan. And he was like, “Well, let’s go into Chicago, Wes.” And well so anyway, we went into Chicago, and we stayed at a mission there because we didn’t have any money. He did; he had a little bit of money. But that was an eye-opener: being in Chicago basically all night and finally stumbling upon this mission and going in. But we were only there for probably, I don’t know, a couple nights. Spent a night there and then came back to the base. It was just easier to come back to the base. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: You know, the meals were there and all that stuff. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Alright. So, when—once you finish that, what do you do next? Well, after boot camp. Veteran: Well, we came back to, you know again, civilian life. And then you’d continue your studies until you go orders to go to active duty. Interviewer: Alright. And so basically, you were now assigned to a Reserve unit in Muskegon and so you show up for the weekends or…? �8 Veteran: Yeah. Basically, that’s the way it was. And then of course when we got orders, my orders were to go to San Francisco, Treasure Island, and wait for wherever you were going to go with it. You were going to go to the fleet or whatever. Interviewer: Okay. Now so the part where you were reading your manuals and you make the switch from corpsman to gunner’s mate, was that while you were with the Reserve unit? Or— Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Alright. Now, at what point do you get to gunnery training? When does that come in? (00:12:17) Veteran: Well, that’s interesting because you don’t get gunnery training until you go to active duty. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Physical gunnery training. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And that’s a very good point, Jim, because I didn’t gunnery training on the big guns. Once I got out of or received orders to Da Nang, Vietnam, after 3—and I spent 3 months in San Francisco. While I was there, they put me in a geedunk or a sandwich area where you had to maintain the vending machines and mop the floors, all that. And I got my orders to Da Nang and my heart sank of course. I was thinking oh my gosh, you really got to be kidding me. Because �9 you don’t look at Vietnam at that time as being—any areas—being peaceful or being wellprotected. The first thing you are thinking of is I am going to be in the field, and I am going to be in fire fights all the time. And the possibility of getting killed or injured always enters your mind. Well, then we got…we got orders to go home for a 30-day leave before you went to Vietnam. And I did that. But before we left to do the 30-day leave, we said, “You’re going to come back and your orders are going to go to Coronado, California. And you will receive further training there.” And I am thinking wait a minute: Coronado, California is a UDT SEAL base. I am—they don’t get this. I am not going to be a SEAL. And I am not going to be underwater demolition. But what I didn’t know is that they were setting up training at that time for riverboats. And the majority, from what I understand, of the riverboat personnel there were Reservists. So anyway, we—I came back to Coronado. Interviewer: Okay, I want to actually back up a little bit. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, you spent 3 months in San Francisco. Veteran: Yes. (00:14:34) Interviewer: Did you go into town at all? Veteran: Yes, I did. And it’s funny: most of the time when I went into town, I went in alone. And I never got bothered and a lot of these guys would come back all beat up and everything. And when I told them that I would go into town, I said, “No one ever bothered me.” And I would go in full uniform. Of course, back then, it was summertime or spring, and we were in whites then. And I said—I remember going into town. I went into Chinatown and that’s where a lot of these guys were getting beat up. And never came back—I never had a conflict with anybody. But I �10 remember going into town by myself and I remember going into a bar that was an all-gay bar. And of course, coming from the Midwest, we didn’t have that here at the time. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Veteran: And I remember, and I thought gosh, these women look awful strange…You know? And they were dancing on the bar and all this kind of stuff. I thought…And I am looking and one of these gals had a mustache. And I am thinking I am in the wrong place…For me, I am in the wrong place. And one of them asked me for a date I recall. And I just got out and moved out and I never went into town again. I went back to the base. But I was so close to going to, again, down to southern California. Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, let’s go down now back to Coronado. You get there. Now what happens? (00:16:21) Veteran: I get there, and they tell us that we are going through—they say we are going to go through small arms training, and we are going up to Camp Pendleton and the Marine Corps is going to train you in small arms. Now, I am really getting a little bit…you know, I am starting to think something is happening here. This is not the big guns in the fleet. This is small arms and gunner’s mates in the fleet don’t mess with any of that. Well, they do but not very often. And I remember going up to Pendleton. And I had a little Snoopy pin, a little gold Snoopy pin that I wore on my cap. And these Marines were saluting me, thinking that I was an officer. And I sat down in a 6x with the rest of the crew, and they said, “Wes, you need to take that off.” He said, “If these jarheads see that that’s a Snoopy pin, they’re going to beat you senseless.” So, I did; I did take it off. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I am not going to, you know, risk a beating because of that. Anyway, we stayed out of the camp in tents and all that business and �11 then we went to the firing range, and they were training us on M-16s, Remington Wingmaster shotguns. We didn’t get too much training on the M-60. That was more of a self-taught thing later on. but you know, 45 pistol. And I remember that the DI was setting me up with this 12gauge shotgun. And I had shot this so many times that I was really getting sore in my shoulder. And I made the mistake of holding that away from my shoulder, because it was so sore, and touching that off and that the butt of the gun came up across. Blackened both of my eyes and my nose was bleeding and that’s all that DI needed. That. And he called me out in front of everybody and dressed me down as an idiot and the whole nine yards. And never forgot that. I haven’t forgotten in 40-some odd years. But with that being…and I was stuck with that weapon for the rest of the day anyway, Jim, so by the time—I mean, my whole shoulder was black and blue. (00:18:47) Veteran: But it was something that I never forgot, and I thank him for that to this day because it was part of the discipline that you received that could have very easily saved my life, in some course of my time in Vietnam. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, now…So, then—so you do that weapons training at Camp Pendleton and then how much time did you spend at Pendleton, do you think? Veteran: I think we spent probably a week; I am guessing. Now, in the course of that time, I was supposed to receive to go to what they call SERE training. Have you ever heard of that? Survival, evasion, resistance, and escape. And in my records, they have that I went to that class for 3 weeks. And they are classes. They are set up. Interviewer: Yep. �12 Veteran: And it was signed off by a lieutenant. I never went. Never went, they just signed it off. They needed bodies for Vietnam, and they weren’t going to mess with taking the time to do that. Well with that being said, we went back to Coronado. And I remember one of the last classes we had was—they said, “You’re going to get a 10-day protocol leave. Go home, make arrangements with insurance and everything and blah blah blah…” And that’s when it registered. I had talked to the fellow next to me and I said, “What is he talking…?” I said, “Don’t they have insurance?” I said, “Don’t they take care of their own here?” And he looked at me and he said, “You really don’t know what’s going on yet, do you?” I said, “Well, I know I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer,” I said, “but no, I don’t.” He said, “Dude,” he said, “we’re going to Vietnam.” He said, “You’re going to be in combat on a naval support activity base or something.” This guy was fleet, so he had been in the Navy for a while. (00:20:57) Veteran: I said, “Well, go take care of your—what do they mean?” He says, “Life insurance in case you get offed or whatever, you have insurance to help your folks or whatever, should you desire.” And my heart sank. And I have to tell you, Jim, I was afraid. I was afraid. Because with what you had seen on the media through all these years was just nothing but heavy fire fighting and villages burning and all of that. And I thought of myself, coming out of the projects, as a fairly tough kid, you know. But that didn’t appeal to me one bit. Now, I don’t mind servicing my country or anything, but I certainly didn’t want to go to Vietnam. I mean, we are halfway around the globe. You know? And it’s not as though it is today where you can pick up your cell phone and call home from a war zone. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:22:06) Veteran: That—no, you can’t do that. So… �13 Interviewer: Okay, so what was it like to go back home that last time? Veteran: Well, of course you went out and got drunk a few times with your buddies. Now, what buddies were still there because a lot of them had already gone. And I guess it really—you still don’t really realize until you’re ready to step on the plane to go. And that did happen. I boarded in Muskegon. It’s a funny thing about the Navy is that we went over one by one. We didn’t go over as a group like—not like the Army and the Marine Corps where they would go over in a group. Interviewer: To Vietnam, most of them went one by one too. Veteran: Yeah? That’s crazy. And of course, you are getting on the plane and as the plane is taxiing down and you leave your hometown, and you look out the window and you are looking down at Lake Michigan. And of course, over on the other side is Mona Lake. And you are thinking am I ever going to see that again? You know? And so, you are afraid. You know, it’s the unknown. You are going into the unknown. And this is—it’s an adventure but it’s not the kind of adventure that you want. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know, so…Anyway. Interviewer: So, you go up. And then, do they fly you to Vietnam? Veteran: They did us. They—some of the Marines and everything were taken over by ship and everything. But they did us; flew us over there. And I can remember landing in Da Nang. And we had made one hop too on the way over there. Now that I recall, I think it was in Guam. Refueling or whatever. �14 Interviewer: Right. (00:24:04) Veteran: And we got into Da Nang. And I remember stepping—my first stepping out of the fuselage and breathing the tropical air and there was a different scent about it as well and it was humid, and it was hot. And I remember going through and back—just kind of backing up in San Francisco, they gave us a shot called the gamma globulin shot. It was a big shot, and it was a painful shot. But when I got of that plane, I was glad that I had that shot because it supposedly was supposed to thin out your blood and get you more acclimated to tropical. And I remember getting off the plane and looking around, thinking that there was going to be a fire fight. Of course, I am in Da Nang. Da Nang is big by then, and I mean they are just occupied by tons of American soldiers and sailors and airmen and all that business. So, we were there probably in Camp Tien Sha. This is northern I Corps now. And I can remember they were sending us to detachments. They had given a lot—we were in a…I think we were probably in an area about as big as this room. It was outside and there were benches set up. And I remember myself and two other swabbies getting over in the latter corner, way over there. Why? I had absolutely no idea because, you know, where we were going and what we were going to do was already determined. And as some of these guys stayed in Da Nang. Some of them were going out to an NSA Detachment—Naval Support Activity Detachments. And I remember they had gotten down to us. We were the only 3 guys there. All the rest of the guys had gotten up and took off to their barracks. (00:26:24) Veteran: And he said, “You 3 guys,” he says, “are going up to the northernmost detachments in South Vietnam.” And I thought oh my God, you have got to be kidding me. The very last place in the world that I wanted to go. So, 2 of them got—we got our orders and got our sea bags packed and we went up by what they call a “ski lack”. It’s a YFU. And it’s a flat bottom scow. �15 And I mean, you are going along the South China Sea, up north. And you are hitting all these waves, like this, and it’s an overnight stint. And I remember we entered the Cua Viet River, Dong Ha River. Some guys call it Dong Ha River, some guys call it Cua Viet River. But I remember going inland. And Cua Viet was right on the mouth of the South China Sea and the river. Two guys got dropped off there. One was a cook; I can’t remember what the other guy was. And then for me, I am the last guy. And we are going up by YFU in the rivers. And I am looking on the sides of the rivers, of course, and expecting to be hammered at any time. And we got up to a little place called Dong Ha. Well, Dong Ha was quite a bit bigger than what I envisioned because we were going—unbeknown to me at the time—we were stationed with the Marine Corps. (00:28:07) Veteran: Well, the ramp, or where these YFUs would pull up with—they would drop the ramp and there were supplies onboard. And this area that they called the ramp was all cemented and they had rough terrain forklifts that would come in, lift off the supplies. And it was more or less a staging area for that. There—of course, it was all fenced off. Three strand barbed wire, you know, all that business, with bunkers in certain areas. And I remember getting off and throwing my sea bag on this 6x, this truck. And they proceeded to take me up to the base. And when we had gotten up there, there was no one that I could visually see in the naval part of this. And I remember them dropping off my sea bag and jumping off of this thing and looking around. And I could see the mountains in the distance of Laos. And the truck had pulled away and there was no one there. And I see these little dust devils out, these little, you know, along there. And I remember looking up and I said, “This is the very last place on your green earth that I want to be.” And so, I did happen to see someone. And of course, you had to go to the admin building to check in and all that kind of stuff. �16 Interviewer: So, when was this? Approximate date, yeah. Veteran: This would be July of ’69. Interviewer: Okay. (00:30:03) Veteran: So, the war is still going pretty— Interviewer: Oh yeah. Veteran: --pretty hot and heavy. Or the conflict. To the guys that were there, it is a war. It’s not a conflict. Interviewer: Right, right. Veteran: It’s not a conflict, it’s a war. Our duties—I was assigned to a certain section. They had sections of people that would—basically the security people, because I was a gunner’s mate striker wanting to be a, you know, a petty officer gunner’s mate, I was assigned to security. And security there was—they had like I think it was 4 sections, Jim, if I am not mistaken, where we would rotate. You’d have a day shift and a night shift and then you’d rotate to a night shift and do a day shift, all that kind of stuff. And I remember being assigned to the ramp. Security on the ramp. And you get to know the guys in your section pretty well because you are basically in the same hooch, or the same housing. Which made sense. So, you’d become very tight with these guys. But you lose your sanity when you are over there because these guys are crazy. They do crazy stuff. And I laugh at it now, but I can remember—now, Dong Ha was one of the northernmost areas in South Vietnam. And they would get rocketed pretty regularly. I think I had been there for 2 or 3 days. And they had instructed me that in the middle—well, right by where �17 my ramp assignment was, there was a trapdoor. And this trapdoor was probably…Well, it was a 4x8 sheet of plywood. (00:32:14) Veteran: And underneath the hooch, they—the Seabees had dug trenches for us to be in too. And I can recall probably the second—again, the second or third night—you hear this whoosh! Whoosh! Whoosh! And the siren would go off, which meant we got incoming. And I can remember the leading petty officer of my hooch saying, “Incoming!” And all I remember is opening up that trap door and jumping into the trench. It was water in the trench. So, that was a real eye-opener in the middle of the night. When the all-clear siren sounded, I remember getting up off of there and the LP, or the leading petty officer, turned on the light. And he said, “Who was the first one in the trench?” I said, “I don’t know. I guess it would be me.” He says, “Did you rip the door off of the floor?” I said, “I don’t know.” I said, “I guess I probably did.” He says, “Then you get your ass down there to the Seabees and have them come up here and fix it.” “Now? Right now? It is in the middle of the night.” He said, “It doesn’t have to be right now,” he said, “but…” And he was a little warm at me but…I can remember rats running across my chest. And I hate rats and I hate them to this day. But that’s what I recall about that. Jim, we—various times out on the ramp, we would get incoming down there where we got into—some of the guys exchanged fire and all this other kind of stuff. We had fire fights. That’s where we got our combat action ribbons. All of that. I do remember spending time…we had gotten a shipment of black powder on a barge. (00:34:39) Veteran: And we were coming into Tet. Kind of a stupid time to be moving black powder and not removing it off. But for whatever reason, they had me standing watch: the mid watch on this black powder. And I remember going out there, and I had 2 bandoliers of M-16 clips and all of that stuff. And I had taken tracer rounds and did a couple of full clips of tracers in there. Because �18 I had no idea, you know, if we were going to get attacked or whatever. Maybe this would scare them or something, which it probably wouldn’t have anyway. And I remember standing watch on this and I was screaming and yelling all night long and singing. And I’d take random shots, you know, with the…And we had the XO on, which was a younger guy. And morning came and I remember Lieutenant Beatty coming in. This—of course, this was secondhanded I am hearing this, but I heard it from a guy that was in the admin building there. And he said, “Beatty came on,” he says, “and he said he wanted to know who the lunatic was that was out on the barge.” So, he told the XO, he says, “Go on out and,” they told, they said, “go on out and get Spyke and bring him in.” He said, “With all due respect, sir,” he says, “you go out and get him.” He says, “Well, what do you mean by that?” He says, “Do you hear him? This man is insane.” (00:36:25) Veteran: And anyway, for whatever reason, I came back in, and they wanted to see me. And he sat down. He says, “Spyke,” he said, “come on in. Sit down.” So, I did. He says, “What are you doing?” I said, “I am protecting myself.” He said, “You’re just crazy.” He says, “You know,” he said, “there could have been a whole frickin’ army out there of NVA,” he said, “you would have stood them off.” And I said, “Well, that really wasn’t what it was about.” I said, “Here is the thing,” I said, “the Vietnamese,” I said, “are like our American Indian. If you kill somebody that is dinky dow,” I said, “or,” I said, “it is very bad for you to kill someone that is insane.” He said, “Okay.” He says, “I got you.” And I said, “So, if I went out there,” and I said, “and I am spending all this time on that black powder,” I said, “there wouldn’t have been enough of me,” I said, “to put in a thimble,” I said, “should they have gotten me.” He says, “Well that’s really…” he says, “That’s pretty smart.” I said, “I don’t know how smart it was.” I said, “But I am still here.” Interviewer: Yeah. �19 Veteran: So…That’s one of the things that I remember. That and being blown off of the, you know, by that 175 Long Tom we were talking about earlier. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that was an off-camera story. So… Veteran: Oh! Interviewer: Why don’t you talk about that. Yeah. Veteran: Okay. Alright. Well, we had—in this—on the ramp, they had a, what they called a point bunker, which was next to the river. But it was out a ways. And because of its distance from the rest of the, you know, the sailors there, we had two people that would man that bunker just because of its logistics and all that business. (00:38:28) Veteran: So, myself and this other swabbie jockey was in there one night. And because we had a mid-watch, there were two guys out there, we decided that I’d sleep a few hours, he’d sleep a few hours, vice versa. In that bunker—it was a double bunker, so in that bunker on the top part of that bunker, there were fire ports. And the fire ports were generally I am going to say a foot by three or four feet long. And we had them—there was one on this side and one on this side. And then we had two in the middle that we could—that we had a—that we could defend from. And it was my turn to sleep, and I remember, obviously going to sleep, but when I woke up, I found myself on the floor with a bloody nose. And of course, I had no idea how I got there. I was still disoriented. After I got my bearing, I asked this guy. I said, “What in the world happened?” He said, “I probably should have woke you up.” He said, “But the Army pulled up with a 175 and I am thinking it is probably from 16 feet, maybe 20 feet away.” He says, “And when they touched it off,” he said, “you fell on the floor.” He said, “You got blown off of the sandbags.” And I am thinking: what just happened? You know? (00:40:12) �20 Veteran: Of course, you don’t report things like that. I mean, you are in a combat zone. I mean, I figured this happened probably to everybody that was too close to a cannon that went off. But later on, talking to the guys that I associate with now, some of those guys were on tracks that had Long Toms. And I asked them that, “Are they powerful? Will the percussion of that knock a man off of…?” And they said, “Oh my gosh, Wes, if you were 100 yards down from a 175,” he says, “the percussion of that would knock you over like,” he says, “and you’re a big guy.” He said, “It wouldn’t have any problem knocking you down at all.” So, he said, “You really got away kind of lucky, you know, that you got blown off the sandbag but that is all that happened.” Well, of course I lost my hearing because of that. But you don’t report that stuff. So, that was… Interviewer: So, about how long did you spend doing security there? Veteran: About 5 months. I think about 5 months. Let’s see…It was about 5 months because flatter part of January of this following year now, February, January, I went to river security. My billet had opened up. Dong Ha Naval Support Activity was being turned over to the Vietnamese. We were no longer going to be a presence there. Interviewer: Now, what was the basic purpose of the base during those first 5-6 months when you were there? What was going on? You are security, but what’s the Navy doing there? Veteran: Well, the Navy is bringing in—we are bringing in supplies to the Marine Corps, the Army, Air Force, all that business. Air Force generally flew in their own business, so we didn’t get that. I shouldn’t even include them in that because I…But we would bring in supplies. Everything from wristwatches to C-Rats, C-Rations. So, we would have everything from �21 clothing to groceries to all of that business. And they would disperse that from there, wherever they were going with it. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have your own landing craft or river craft that were based— Veteran: Not at that time. Interviewer: Don’t play with your microphone, please. Veteran: Oh. Sorry. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, so it is basically just a supply base at that point, yeah. (00:42:33) Veteran: It’s a supply. Interviewer: And you are parked there as security because they are waiting to assign you to boats but then it hasn’t happened yet. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Well, it’s not only security against the Vietnamese, it is also security against our own guys, you know. I hate to say that but that, you know, there was pilfering. Interviewer: Okay, now on a base like that, I mean, did you have people using drugs or do they have a way of getting drunk or anything else like that? Veteran: Oh, absolutely. You know, it is kind of amazing when—of course, now we are dealing with a lot of that those years following Vietnam. A lot of these guys were drunks; they turned into drunks. Well, you know, they would bring it in by the pallet loads. You know? Beer and all �22 that stuff. Of course, the officers would more or less get the, you know, the goods, the liquor, as opposed to beer. But oh my goodness, yeah. Whatever you wanted. I didn’t know too much about drugs there. I never got involved in drugging there, with the exception of I had a station with a fellow from Tennessee. His name was Will Glidewell. I will never forget him. He is deceased now. But I was always having trouble because during the—staying awake—because during the day, we would fill sandbags and stuff like that. Well, then you’d go on watch at night. Well, you are tired. And I would fight that. Oh my gosh, I would fight that. And by this time, this was my section. (00:44:11) Veteran: And I remember Will telling me, “Look,” he says, “I got some people from home that I went to college with.” He dropped out of college to go to Vietnam. Go figure. And he said, “Take a couple of these,” he says, “and it will keep you awake through the night.” Well, I resisted that and resisted that and resisted that because drugs scared me. And coming from a family whose mother was an RN, you know, we knew the danger in drugs. I finally took them. They were called black widows and they were amphetamine. Boy, you want to talk about uppers. Jim, oh my gosh. I was awake for three days. But boy, when you crash, you crash big time. And I remember telling Will, I said, “Don’t you ever, ever ask me to try these again.” I said, “These scared me to death.” Well, it’s about really all I can remember, Jim, about… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: …about that. Well, let me tell you one thing. We were going—we were coming off of a watch down there and we were on our way back in a 6x and I remember being overrun. And I can remember that—now, this is between the ramp, which was about 3 miles away from the base, and I can remember getting underneath the 6x, up over the axles. I am a tall guy now, but I am only like 206 pounds, and I was 6’4’’ then, so I am about that big around. And but I �23 remember getting up over the axle and I remember that there was fire fighting going on. I remember black pajama bottoms running by the truck. (00:46:25) Veteran: And then I hear machine gun fire, which is our machine gun fire because you can tell the difference between Chinese communist weapons and ours. And it died down. I mean, it was quiet. So, I crawled out from underneath the truck. The other guys had come who had been gone over in the brush. And there was an Army duster that was there. And a duster is a—like a 6x with a set of—some of them even had 40-millimeter guns mounted on them. But this one I think had a quad 50 on it. Interviewer: 50 caliber machine guns, which our powerful enough. Veteran: Oh, absolutely. And generally, there were 4 of them in a quad 50, so quite a bit of fire power there. And boy, you want to talk about scared then because that really could have been a casualty then, particularly when you’re ambushed because you have no idea when it is coming, you know. That’s the element of surprise. Interviewer: Okay, so basically, it was possible for—now, do you think these were North Vietnamese sappers that came in or…? Veteran: No, I don’t think sappers or North Vietnamese— Interviewer: Or is this Viet Cong? Veteran: I think it was Viet Cong. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. �24 Interviewer: And was it common for them to come into that area? Or was that kind of attack pretty rare? Veteran: It was pretty rare for us. You know, one of our biggest allies there were the kids because we would always give them food, you know, and we’d chat with them through the wire, you know, and all this business. And being in security, of course, you walk the wire all the time, you walk the fence all the time, so you would, you know, you’d talk to these kids. And oftentimes, they would tell you they couldn’t pronounce my name Spyke. They would call me Sa-byke. Sa-byke. And they’d come up and say, “Sa-byke, the VC come tonight. You watch.” Of course, they spoke broken— Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. (00:48:23) Veteran: --English. And but they were a tremendous ally to us. Of course, we gave them food, we joked around with them, made them laugh. And they made us laugh. But they would let us know if something was going to come down. They said, “They may come, they may not.” They said, “But…” one of the things the kids would tell us is, “Wait for the dark of the sky.” No moon. You know, watch for that. Or if it is raining at night, when it is wet, because you don’t hear them, you know. And so, they were a real asset to our living through that ordeal. But to remember all the things that went on there… Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you got us to the first half of your—in Vietnam—is kind of spent doing that kind of work. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay. So, now the orders come. They are turning that Dong Ha base over to the Vietnamese. And now, where do you go and what do you do? �25 Veteran: I remember that my CO came, called me into his office. He said, “Spyke,” he says, “we are going to be leaving Vietnam.” He says, “We are going down to Da Nang,” he said, “because we are in shipping, we are in Lighter G.” And he said, “I see that in your chit,” which you can see that in my orders, that—your chit is a request. That’s what they call it in the Navy. “That you wanted to go to riverboats. You are a gunner’s mate,” he says, “however, your billet was not open at the time and we needed qualified people here. So,” he said, “that’s why we didn’t let you go.” And I said, “I read that on the chit, sir.” (00:50:20) Veteran: He said, “I am going to give you a choice.” He says, “You can—your billet is open down river at Cua Viet or why don’t you come down with us. We will party.” He said, “We are going to be in Da Nang, dude,” he says, “it’s party city. We will just party down for the rest of our tour and we will go home.” And I said, “No. No sir, I’d really rather go.” In one of my stupider moments. I know there isn’t such a thing as stupider but regardless of that, in one of my stupider moments, Jim, I said, “No sir,” I said, “this is what we trained to do. This is what I want to do.” Which, really, when I first came in the Navy, that’s the last thing that I wanted to do. So, he said, “Are you—do you know what you are doing? Are you sure you want to do this?” he said, “Do you know what those guys do?” And I said, “Well, I hear them and,” I said, “I can see them downriver when…” he said, “But they…” he said, “If that’s what you want to do then so be it. I will sign your orders.” So, he did, and I went down got assigned to an LCPL. They had taken the PBRs, the—really, the work horses for the—was a fiberglass boat. We restored one in Muskegon today, you know. And anyway, my boat was not a PBR, it was an LCPL, which was a World War 2 converted rivercraft. The first riverine people there were the Coast Guard and they had LCPLs. (00:52:19) �26 Veteran: They later came out with a fiberglass version, but we had a metal version. And we had a 50 caliber, fore and aft, 60 calibers on—you know—M-60s on the side. Plus, our small arms which consisted of 2 M-79 grenade launchers. I had an M-16, 12-gauge shotgun, and an M-14 with a night scope. Interviewer: So, that’s a conventional rifle. Veteran: It’s a conventional rifle but set up for night and sniper— Interviewer: Right. Veteran: --stuff. My job was to make sure that the guns were operational, that they were kept clean, that we had the ammunition we needed onboard, for any type of thing, whether we were going to use an M-79 grenade launcher or whether we were going to use the 50 calibers. The 50 caliber was a very, very good weapon. I mean, it’s a very old weapon but it is…Browning did his job when he designed that. But and we used that many times. Interviewer: Now, were you assigned to an individual craft or did you— Veteran: Yes, I was assigned—they went by—the PBRs were boat numbers. Ours were call numbers. The base was Big Dance and our boat, my boat, was Sierra. So, when they called us, you know, Big Dance, Sierra, and we’d call back Sierra, you know. It was a—where the PBRs were a twin water jet, double-engined rivercraft, with a draft of probably 9 inches to a foot on full power, under way, whereas the LCPLs had a draft probably about 3 feet. Single prop, single engine. Diesel. (00:54:39) Veteran: In a way, it was a better craft than PBRs. Not so much where I was, but in the delta, PBRs—the engines are hooked to huge jacuzzi pumps. Well, in order to get the jet craft like you �27 see on the kids driving them on the lakes today, there is a suction that is on the bottom of that. And these engines turn the pumps to—it sucks in the water into the impellers and the impellers shoot it out through nozzles, which are controlled. They don’t have rudders; they control them with the jet nozzles, where we had a rudder. The bad part about the PBRs is that the Vietnamese knew this, and they would cut up weed beds, send them down river, and they’d get caught up into the suction thing and they are dead in the water. Whereas, we didn’t have the speed that they did. I think top end, Jim, probably about 17 knots, about 23 miles an hour. Whereas the PBRs could hit 29, 30, 32 miles an hour; that’s cooking pretty good. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:56:07) Veteran: So, with that being said, it wouldn’t make any difference whether we had weed beds or not. The screws on our thing would just chew them up and, you know. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So, we weren’t as fast as they were. PBRs had twin 50s, single 50 mounted aft, M-19 grenade launcher, automatic grenade launcher on theirs, and then they probably have an M-60 as well, where we had the 60s on the side and a 50fore and aft. So, fire power, they may have had a little more fire power than we did but when you are shooting 50 caliber, that’s a lot of fire power. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: So… Interviewer: Now, what kind of reception do you get when you arrive at the base? Because you are kind of the new guy coming in. Veteran: I can’t remember. It couldn’t have been traumatic because I don’t remember it. �28 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They just assign you a rack and boat and you are to report there at such and such a time for a briefing or debriefing or whatever. Interviewer: Yeah. And you had been in country for 6 months, so you maybe looked like it by then. Veteran: Oh yeah. You are starting to—but it—you go into a point of…you are seasoned for that job and now you are breaking into something new. Even though you are in river security, it’s a completely different environment. I mean, there are no sandbags to protect you there. You are just an absolute sitting duck in the middle of duck season, if you will. But with that being said, there were boats that got dressed down pretty good…not so much as in 1968, during Tet, which is understandable. And the PBRs were the ones that were picked on the most. Why? I don’t know. But they seemed to be picked on the most. Again, I can only remember a couple of days or weeks that I was there, Jim. And it was River Division 543, PBR. And they used to have swift boats there as well, but they were long gone before I got there. Swift boats being PCF: Patrol Craft Fast. (00:58:39) Veteran: But they too had a large draft. So, for river patrolling, that’s not a good thing. That river was controlled by tides as well. So, you had to watch what you were doing there. I remember one time at night, we got caught onto a sandbar. And we just couldn’t get off of that thing. So, I finally had to jump in the river with a line and try and pull us off of that sandbar. I remember one night we were motoring up and it—for a night patrol. And there were two times—there were 12hour patrols. We’d call it port and starboard: one was night, and one was day. And they were 4hour patrols or longer. It could be longer. If there was a boat that was down or something, it �29 could get into a 24-hour patrol or whatever. But we didn’t have a lot of river to patrol. Probably 10, maybe 11, miles. And back then, there was a curfew on the Vietnamese. (01:00:08) Veteran: When the sun set, you were not to be on the rivers. And this one night, we were motoring upriver and just kind of barely cruising. And we happened to see what they call a bumboat. A bumboat is a sampan. We’d call it a bumboat because it would come around the boats when they came in and they’d bum stuff, cigarettes, stuff, off the other guys. And we saw this bumboat coming downriver and it was dark. I mean, we could have shot them. We could have opened up on them because you have no idea. I mean, they could be loaded with the, you know, explosives to get rid of the boats or whatever. But I remember there were torches on both ends of that bumboat. And we had another boat come up with what we call traffic cop, which was—generally had an officer onboard. I was down below. And I think I was napping or whatever. And our boat captain said, “Well, go on down there, grab some Z’s and…” you know. And I remember him telling me that the traffic cop came up and tied up alongside of us. And he said, “Wake up, Spyke.” So, he woke me up and brought me up on deck. They said, “You have corpsman training.” And I said, “No, I don’t.” They said, “It says in your record that you had corpsman training.” He said—but I said, “It doesn’t matter. The boat that is coming up here right now,” he says, “Has got a pregnant woman on it.” He says, “You’re going to look at her.” I says, “And do what?” And he said, “Look, I don’t think she’s going to pop a kid yet,” or something similar to that. An officer generally wouldn’t talk like that. But I says, “So, what are you—what do you want me to do?” They said, “Well, we can’t bring her on to—” our base was next to a Vietnamese Navy—what they called a junk base. They had junk walls. (01:02:42) Veteran: They said, “We are going to put you on the bank,” he says, “and we are going to take these other two guys in with us, get them clearance,” he says, “and then we will come back to get �30 you.” And I said, “Well, but—wait, wait. Wait.” I said, “You’re going to put me where?” They said, “Get over on the bank, Spyke, with this woman. And we will come back and get you.” “What am I supposed to do with her?” They said, “Just be with her. Protect her.” I am thinking now, we are in hostile area up here, Jim. I mean, we’re—the NVA is not far away. You can see their campfires at night. So, here I am on this riverbank with this woman, and she is as big as a house. And she’s holding on to my fingers, my two fingers. These two fingers, because I had an M-16 in this. And she’s going through labor. And she’s, “Ohhh!” like that. And I am thinking oh my gosh, I said, “I am in hostile territory and she’s screaming out here.” You know? Black as pitch again. And you’re here, all you have is a sampan, a pregnant woman, and she’s going through labor pains. (01:04:10) Veteran: And I can feel for her, but I am scared to absolute death. And I am thinking—because you’re alone. They didn’t—both boats took off. So, they left me with a sampan. Of course, they doused the torches, you know, so we are black. Anyway, she didn’t deliver, thank God. And I mean literally, thank God that she didn’t deliver. They came back up, of course, and put her onboard the chug boat and brough her back down to the base. Apparently, she was breeched or something. Or she was going to have problems and… So anyway, got back onboard there and I thought well, you ought to get a Silver Star for this one. But that didn’t happen. But you remember things like that. I mean, that was one event there. There were several. Interviewer: Okay. So, now you are up at the base at Cua Viet, and you are now in these converted landing craft conducting patrols. What types of missions were you carrying out? Veteran: Basically, our job was deny the waterways to the enemy for contraband, whatever they were running. Arms generally. And/or food supplies. That was basically our mission. However, we would do extractions of troops, insertions of some troops. Basically, being in a special ops �31 unit, which we didn’t know at the time. We would insert Special Forces personnel. We would work with Green Beret. We would work with the recon Marines, SEALs. We didn’t do too many SEALs. But Army snipers, Marine Corps snipers. (01:06:34) Veteran: And then of course, after their mission, you know, we would—at such and such a time, at such and such a location, so many clicks upriver, we would pick them up at such and such a time. Sometimes that was peaceful. Sometimes it wasn’t peaceful. For the most part, I can honestly say that it was peaceful. I do remember being in—well, just a little thing that goes along with this—I can remember being in Washington D.C. and we were going through—well, with these veterans, other veterans—we were going through the Vietnam part of the American history part of Smithsonian. And I was bringing my—to go into the Vietnam era room, you have to walk through the fuselage of a plane. And when you get in there, of to the righthand side there is a Dustoff helicopter or a medical helicopter. Mannequins are putting a stretcher onboard and there are various artifacts from Vietnam in there. And I was explaining to my wife, “This was…” and, “This was a, you know, Dustoff helicopter. Chopper.” There were 4 gentlemen in there with red satin jackets on and they had such and such Ranger outfit and all that stuff. And one of them looked over at me and he says, “Sir,” he said, “were you in Vietnam?” I said, “Yes, sir. I was.” And he said, “Well,” he says, “where were you?” And I—or “What branch of the service were you in?” I say, “United States Navy.” And he said, “Oh,” he said, “So, you were in, you know, shipping and all that stuff?” I said, “Ah, no.” He said, “Well, what did you do?” (01:08:36) Veteran: I said, “I was a river rat.” He said, “What year were you there?” I said, “’69, ’70.” He says, “Oh my gosh.” He says, “We ought to get down and kiss this guy’s feet.” And of course, these guys peeking—got their attention with that. He said, “Why? Why?” I said, “Why would you say that?” and he said, “We were under a horrendous fire fight in Northern I Corps.” He �32 says, “The Dong Ha, Cua Viet area.” He says, “That’s where you were at?” and I said, “Yes.” And he said, “They were unable to come in and get us.” And this guy says, he says, “I remember this boat coming around the point,” he says, “and they were just blazing.” He says, “His guns were just blazing.” He says, “They came up onto the—they beached it, grabbed us, pulled us onboard, took off,” he says, “and that rear 50,” he says, “was just singing.” He says, “Was that you?” I said, “I don’t know.” I said, “It could have been.” He says, “Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.” And you have to think, Jim, I said, “What were these guys thinking?” In their minds, for a split second, they were going to die. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And you realize how important that was to them. We were brothers. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: You know, at that time, the joking around, being a ground pounder and you being a squid or a fly boy and a—all that, or jarhead—all that stuff stops. You’re brothers then. And it isn’t that you are fighting for the red, white, and blue: you are fighting to get your brothers out of there. (01:10:28) Interviewer: Okay. So, did you have fire fights like that occasionally? Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah, occasionally, yeah. Well, probably more than occasionally. More than I wanted. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had mentioned off camera another incident that is worth noting. And you took one of these teams coming back and one of them having a strange aroma about it. �33 Veteran: Oh my gosh. That was…We were to meet a reconnaissance Marine. Recon Marines. Again, so many clicks upriver at such and such a point, at such and such a time. And we had gone up there and they were on time. They were waiting for us. And we pulled up and our boat wasn’t like a PBR. We couldn’t get—if we beached it way up there, we wouldn’t have been able to get it off. So, we were back a little ways. And I remember pulling these Marines onboard. And I pulled this one fellow up and sat him down. And I remember we came off the bank, headed back to Cua Viet. And I remember this sickening, putrid aroma coming from this guy sitting next to me. And I turned to him, and I said, “Dude, what is that smell?” and he said—and he had a bandolier, a necklace, of ears that they had cut off the Vietnamese. Now, if it was a fresh cut, Jim, it would have been one thing. (01:12:25) Veteran: But that rancid smell? He had to have these on for a while. And he said, “We just came on to whatever the North Vietnamese would call their patrols or whatever.” And he said, “They didn’t have anybody standing guard.” He said, “So, we killed them and cut off their ears.” And I am thinking to myself: what have we turned into? I mean seriously, what have we turned into? And it may not necessarily been right at that moment but you have a chance to process that on the way to the base or whatever. And it was the same philosophy: if they don’t have all their parts, they don’t go to Vietnamese heaven or Buddha or whatever that is. And I thought what have we turned into? And those thoughts…as you go back in time, you wonder about that. Would these guys have done anything like that if they wouldn’t have been in that situation? I mean, you have to think about that stuff, Jim, and I do to this day. You know? What did I turn into there? Because like we said before, you know, taking the lives of men, particularly those where you see their face and you have the decision of killing them or allowing them to live for �34 possibly a split second or whatever to kill you, that decision lies in a second. And sometimes not even that. And it’s a hell of a thing to take a man’s life. (01:14:33) Interviewer: Alright. Now, most of the situations when you are firing, would you even be able to see who you were firing at? Or was it usually gun flashes or…? Veteran: Well, I—the two that I did were in the river, putting in a percussion mine—a pressure mine, I mean. And what would happen is that they would sink these two below the surface of— probably a foot or so—just below the surface. And when the boats would run over them, of course, it would push that trigger down and blow the boats up. One of our mail carriers, as a matter of fact, was in one of those boats at one time and he almost died. He survived. He got thrown clear of the boat. So, I didn’t—this particular night that that incident happened, I didn’t see them. We had come around the point of the river and we were—it was like a snake. And we were going up toward Dong Ha, as a matter of fact. And it just so happens the two Vietnamese trainee gunner’s mates that I had on my boat happened to be looking in the starlight scope, which is—I don’t know if you are familiar with those or not, but they magnify the light so that you can see at night. And they happened to spot them. And they called me there and I verified that, you know, what they were doing. And I told the boat captain, and I said, “You know, we can’t let—I need to…” Well, anyway…we killed them and—I killed them. And in a sense, it is a thing that you have to do, but in another sense: what have I become? You know? So, that was another incident that you never forget. (01:16:48) Interviewer: Sure. Veteran: One day we were going—we were going to go out—water was a big thing because we’d get this water and it had so much chlorine in it because of the bugs and all that business. �35 We were going out seaside to the gunline, which we called the gunline which was our destroyers and all that stuff, 3 miles out. No big deal. But what we—we were going over the bar. Do you know what the—the bar is a sandbar— Interviewer: Sandbar at the river mouth? Veteran: --at the river mouth. And it can get pretty wild out there. If you have ever seen what the bar is like in the…I am trying to think of the name of the river. It’s what they train the Coast Guard in. It escapes me right now, but waves are huge. They are just absolutely huge, and I remember going—we were going up to go out to get fresh water and our boat captain decided to turn around. He said, “It’s too rough.” I was up in the forward mount, holding on to the butterfly, the handles of the 50, just to hold on. And he had made the turn on a wave and as we were coming down, we surfed down. And now, that boat was 32, 33 feet long. We weren’t at the bottom of that yet. And we surfed that down and I am thinking we must have mellowed out because we didn’t go under the water, but it came up over the prow. (01:18:39) Veteran: And brother, if that doesn’t make you a believer. Because in that surf, you wouldn’t survive in that surf. I mean, we didn’t have life vests on. All we had on—we didn’t even have our flak jackets on, which would have been detrimental anyway if you would have fallen in the water. So, that was another incident. But there are times—and I don’t know whether other sailors thought about this—but there are times, Jim, when you just get so tired of it, you think: if I jump in the water here, it’s only like a 7,000-mile swim. Serious. I am serious. And the South China Sea is loaded with hammerhead sharks. But you get so sick of it and tired of it. And you think: I want to go home. �36 Interviewer: Okay. Now, you were mentioning having Vietnamese trainees on the boat with you— Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: So, were you starting to—you working a lot with Vietnamese personnel? Veteran: Yeah. I had two of these guys. Phuc and Phan were their names. I don’t know if that was their first name or their last name or whatever it was. Phuc and Phan. And they were gunner’s mate trainees. And we attached ourselves very closely. And I can remember picking up these squirts because I’d have them under both arms. And they—of course, they’d tease me, and they’d laugh. And most of the time, I couldn’t understand what they were saying. But they’d say, “Sa-byke, boocoo mop,” which meant ‘big’. Very big. You know? And you know, you’d tickle these guys and all that stuff. And we became very close. And I have often wondered what happened to them when we left. (01:20:45) Veteran: But yeah, they’d—you’d train them on, you know, because they were going to inherit all of our stuff. Our boats, our armaments, everything. They were going to inherit that. So, they should know how to operate it, you know. And that’s what my job was: to train them. Interviewer: Okay. And were they learning anything? Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. They were—the Vietnamese are quick studies. They are very smart, for the most part. And there may be a lot of GIs that don’t agree with me on that, but you know, for the…for what they had, they were fierce fighters. And justifiably so. We were in their �37 country. And I am not trying to make an un-American statement there. I am glad that I served in our military, but probably not in that event. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: You know… Interviewer: Aside from the pregnant woman, did you have much contact with civilians at all? Veteran: Once in a while I’d remove a fishhook from one of the fishermen out there. They’d— and they used a tobacco to—one of them was in the lip, I remember one time, and I—we had cutters onboard because you never wanted to pull it back through with the barb. So, you know…But this one guy had one caught in his lip. And I remember removing it but I cut the line and pulled it through the other, because they are very poor. You have to understand that. They were very poor. (01:22:36) Veteran: So, to buy these kind of fishhooks—we are not talking about the little fishhooks here, we are talking about hooks like this. And I remember cutting the line and pulling that through his lip, through the other way. And then he—just without even thinking, Jim, he had tobacco there or whatever that he was—I assumed it was tobacco. And he just put it on and thanked me for it and they went about their way. Oftentimes, if we had the patrol where we were in the harbor in front of the base, we’d be checking what they would call “con cucs”, or their identifications. And we’d call them over, you know, which means ‘come over here now.’ And they’d show us their identifications. Oftentimes, they would give us fresh shrimp. And I mean, this shrimp was still swimming around. And they were—it was a funny thing about those people. They had nothing but they shared nothing. Does that make sense? �38 Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: You know, it didn’t make any difference if they had—if they had one shrimp, they’d cut it in half and give you half. That’s just the way they were. I can’t say that I fell in love with them, but I fell in love with the peasants’ philosophy, if that makes sense. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But you didn’t have them working on the baser with you or— Veteran: They did. Interviewer: Okay. (01:24:13) Veteran: They did work on the base. They would come in and they would clean the hooch and stuff like that. Not so much in river security. We didn’t have that there. In Dong Ha they would. They would have them do laundry and stuff like that. But when we were on the river patrol boat base, when it was an ATSB, they weren’t on there at all. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay. Now, are there other particular incidents from the time at Cua Viet that stand out for you? Either on missions or in the base or…? Veteran: Oh… Interviewer: Funny or serious. Veteran: We had a boat captain that came onboard. Came out of the fleet. He was a new guy. An FNG, what they called them, I am not—a Frickin’ New Guy. And he came onboard. He was a Bosun’s mate. And second class petty officer, I think. I can’t remember his name now, but I remember he came in out of the fleet, and he was going to—and most of us were well-seasoned by this time. I mean, we were—had been on the rivers for—I think I was in probably my 11th month maybe. And we were on a patrol, again, a night patrol. There was an island that was north �39 of the base but west. And we had—he had decided that he wanted to patrol this. The northwesternmost of the island. We were turning around, heading into—back to the main river. And we received small arm fire. (01:26:18) Veteran: And this guy being new was looking at the map at the dash of our boat. It was in red lights, so it didn’t impede your vision, your night vision. And he was calling in Army artillery. Now, you got to remember, this is a village. Civilians are in this village. He’s going to call in Army artillery. And keep in mind too, Jim, we are motoring out. We are in constant motion. And he gets on the map, and he calls our position—our position—in. And you can hear this coming in and whoosh! Right in the back of the boat. I am going to say—it was in the water, thank God, but right in the back of the boat, probably…I am going to say 50 yards. And I remember our mechanic, our engineman, getting up and he was already at a machine gun mount. And I remember him going over to him and ripping the microphone out of his hands. And I remember him saying, “Give me that!” And he called in and had them stop the firing. And of course, the boat captain wanted to know what was going on, you know, and he said, “Never ever call in our position.” He said, “The Army will put that in your back pocket.” He said, “They will calculate,” he said, “they will put it right in your back pocket.” He says, “These guys are that good.” So anyway, he was…He kind of got reprimanded from the engineman. But he wasn’t a very good boat captain. He was a guy that would assign duties to the boat, painting and stuff like that, and he’d go up to the hooch and go to sleep, where the rest of the crew would be down there turning to. (01:28:33) Veteran: And we had an ensign there that was similar to that. And he had talked to me, and he says—I had come in from the night patrol. He says, “Spyke, I want you to work with the ship fitters here. We are going to mount a new mortar on here, a 60-millimeter mortar.” I said, “On �40 the boat?” He said, “Well of course on the boat. Where else?” And I said, “The superstructure will never hold the recoil of that.” He said, “Don’t worry about it. It’s a trigger fired mortar.” He says, “No big deal.” I said, “It won’t hold it.” He says, “Spyke, if I want you to mount a field Howitzer…” I remember him to this day, “You’ll do it.” And I said, “Yes, sir.” So, I worked on it with the welder. Ship fitters are the welders and all that stuff. They mounted the transom on there. We are going to be…we are going to be enlightened before we go out on a night patrol. We are going to get training. So, they had put the round in there and of course this—I remember our ensign looked like Howdy Doody. I mean, he had freckles all over, the glasses like that, and you know, that kind of a smile, and you know, and all this stuff. And his name was Ensign Mayer. I will never forget him. And he said, “We are going to have a demonstration and all this stuff.” Well, I am in the back of the pack. I am in the back of some guys. And they put the round in there. Like I said, it was trigger fire. And they trigger fired that thing and the whole transom went like that. And I began to laugh, and I said, “I told you so! I told you so!” Well, I—as a result of that—I got EMT, which is extra military—EMI: extra military instruction, which means that I had to go out and I had to burn the crappers. Are you familiar with that term? (01:30:37) Interviewer: Yes, but you should explain it for the benefit of the audience. Veteran: Well, for the benefit of the audience, we have 2 or 3 whole outhouse that would have 55-gallon drums cut in half and slid, or in thirds, and slid underneath these holes for the outhouse. And when you did your duty in there, when it became full, we would pull this out and they were full of kerosine. And we would torch that and burn the waste. I think I got that duty for 2 months, besides the rest of all of that. And…But it was worth it. It was worth it. I got caught one time surfing behind the boat by Commander—Lieutenant Commander—Nicholson. And we were out one day, and it was horribly hot because there I think the highest we had in our hooch �41 was like 123? Something like that. Because they are Quonset huts, Jim, and they heat—they are like an oven. They heat up in the summer. And but we were out on day patrol. And I said, “Hey guys,” I said, “let’s throw in a life preserver, a life ring. I will hold onto it.” I said, “You can it and,” I says, “I’ll hold onto it.” I said, “If it gets too much, I will just let loose.” “Okay.” So, like I said, these guys are nuts anyway. And so, we did that. And of course, my idea, I was the first one to do it. And he motored out until we had the slack out of the line. (01:32:25) Veteran: And then I just—I had my arm like this. I just told him to can it. So, he did. And you are going along, you know, in the water and it formed a bubble over me so you could breathe in there and you’re doing almost like a body surfing behind this boat. Unbeknown to us at the time: Lieutenant Commander Nicholson was flying over to check the rivers on that day, and he had never did it before. Why he did it this time, I have no idea. Divine intervention or something maybe. Lord probably thinking well, this guy is really stupid. He needs to be caught or something. Whatever. Anyway, when we got back in, the person from administration came down as we were docking. And he says, “Commander Nicholson wants to see you guys.” Okay. We had no idea that—what was going to happen. We got in his office, and he said, “Close the door boys. I want to talk to you.” So, we close the door. And he said to us, he said, “Funny thing happened to me today.” He says, “I was going along the rivers,” he says, “and checking the riverboats, seeing what you guys were doing.” He says, “And I came upon this boat,” and he says, “and there was a wake behind it like a bubble.” He said, “Almost like a whale or something, or a dolphin, was following this boat.” He said, “And the funny thing was about it…” and he had to have this all set up in his mind. He says, “The funny thing about it,” he says, “is that this dolphin or whatever it was never got any further away from the boat and it never got any closer to the boat.” (01:34:31) �42 Veteran: He said, “Did you guys see anything like that?” He says, “I think it was your boat.” Well, he knew for sure it was our boat. And boat captain looked over at me and he said—he says, “Spyke,” he says—or Commander Nicholson says, “Spyke,” he says, “do you know anything about that?” I said, “I don’t remember seeing a whale or anything behind our boat.” And he said, “Well, let’s cut the crap.” He said, “Do you guys know that there is a war going on here?” And of course, I said, “Well yeah sir, I know.” He said, “If you weren’t one of my best gunner’s mate,” he said, “I’d have you’re a-s-s tacked up on the wall.” I said, “I have no excuse. It was hot.” He says, “I don’t care.” He says, “But there is a war on, guys. No more.” He said, “Do I make myself clear?” I said, “Crystal.” He says, “Okay. You are dismissed. Remember: I am going to be watching you guys.” Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Okay. Interviewer: Okay. So, was your unit sort of small enough that somebody like that lieutenant commander knows you by name? Or did he just— Veteran: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there was only I think 61 guys at the time left on the base. He knew who the crews were. Remember, there was only a crew of 4 guys. Interviewer: Right. (01:36:17) Veteran: You had a boat captain, you had a seaman that would take care of most of the deck stuff, the lines, the ropes, you know, that kind of stuff. You had an engineman whose primary job was the engines. And then of course, you had a gunner’s mate. Now, when you are in combat, everyone is assigned a firearm. And the boat captain generally, you know, rocks the boat. He’s the one that is what we would call the coxswain of the boat. He drives it. And so, I think there �43 were…I am going to say maybe 8 crews that were still there. Now, also, Jim, you had minesweeps, which were MSMG. Have you seen the war movies where the front of the thing drops down and the boat drops down and the guys get off? Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Excuse me. Those are river sweeps. And they would have two of those on each side of the river and it would come back to a float which would drag the river for mines. We did have those there as well. In fact, another guy from Muskegon was on a sweep. So, you know, you had incidents like that. It wasn’t all full-time combat. It just wasn’t. So, we did have some good times there. Not—few and far between but nonetheless there were some good times there. But…Go ahead. Interviewer: I was just going to ask with good times, did you get an R and R while you were there? Did you get to leave the base? (01:38:12) Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, I went on R and R. I never went outside of Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I could have but I didn’t. In fact, one guy even said that he’d pay my way to go with him down to Australia, which is one of the R and R places. And I said, “No. No, no, no. I don’t want to do that.” So, because I was crazy enough probably to not even come back. I would go out in the bush and stay there, you know, in the outback. But anyway, no I didn’t do that, but I went down to R and R, and I made the mistake of—this was kind of like an R and R combined with the corpsmen had sent me down there for dental. And I said, “Well, why don’t I take a few more days and just do R and R as well?” They said, “Well, if you want to do that, that’s fine.” So, I had contacted my old CO from at Dong Ha. Because he had told me, “If you ever want to �44 come down, don’t come down by ship.” He says, “I’ll send a chopper up to get you.” I am thinking well, that’s pretty cool. So, I contacted him, and he says, “Don’t get on a ‘ski lack’.” He says, “I am going to send up the coachmen to come get you. They are going to—they make runs up there and Cua Viet is just a little bit out of their way. They will do it.” So, they did. And I had—I got onboard this Huey. And these two guys, the pilot and, the copilot, were laughing back and forth. They were chatting while I was getting in and I remember the copilot looking back into the chopper and he says, “Buckle up, squid.” So, I did. (01:40:10) Veteran: You know? And then my gosh, Jim, I got to tell you: that was a ride from absolute hell. These guys took off and they are laughing. I mean, they are “Ahhh!” and all this other stuff. And they are chasing Vietnamese. Now remember we are on the South China Sea now. So, it is like being out at Pere Marquette in Muskegon. Sugar sands. And they are chasing the Vietnamese. Now remember, these guys are only about 6 or 8 feet off of the ground and they are shooting along. And now, the fastest I have been in Vietnam here for this past year has been maybe 30 miles an hour, 25 miles an hour, at best. These guys are doing 100—over 100 knots. And I mean now you got a feel for how fast you are going because you are that close to the ground. And they are laughing, and these guys can turn these things on a dime, these Hueys. And they are going up and they are making a sweep and they are turning this thing around on a dime and my stomach is up into my throat and I am sicker than a dog. And these guys are really laughing. They finally get me down to Da Nang and I am at Camp Tien Sha. I spent my time there. My CO went out and got me so drunk that I was throwing up green bile fluid. Because he knew all the speakeasies and all this stuff, you know. All the illegal places. When you are in shipping, you get to know all that stuff. Well, he had made arrangements for me to get a ride back up there. Up back up to Cua �45 Viet. Lo and behold, I get on the chopper and these two same clowns are in there, this pilot and copilot. Same guys. (01:42:09) Veteran: Same thing. They finally set me down. And I said, “You know,” I said, “With your rank and everything being considered,” I said, “I’d like to take you on a boat ride sometime.” I said, “Come on up some time,” I said, “let me give you a boat ride.” They said, “See you later, squid.” And away they went. Never saw them again. But they knew exactly what they were doing. And yeah, you have to laugh about it now but back then I was pretty warm about that. Yeah, things like that sort of as we talk, things like that surface. Interviewer: Sure. Alright. Now are there other particular things that stand out for you, before we move you back out of Vietnam? Veteran: There probably are but I am not thinking of them. Interviewer: Okay. But you think we have kind of characterized pretty well what you were doing during that year in Vietnam? Veteran: Yeah. Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, when do you leave? Veteran: I left…When did I, gosh, when did I get back…? I got back in July of 1970. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We came back on July 3rd because I remember there was a guy that was getting off the plane. And of course, there were firecrackers and stuff going off and all that stuff. And this guy got off and he’s huddled down like he is dodging bullets. And come to find out, this guy was stationed in Cam Ranh Bay, which was an R and R place for— �46 Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Veteran: And he was an admin. You know? Phony guy. And anyway, we got into…trying to think of… Interviewer: Did you go to San Francisco or Seattle or somewhere else? Veteran: No, I went to Long Beach. Interviewer: Okay. (01:44:11) Veteran: I flew into San Bernadino. Went from there to Long Beach to separate. They were going to separate us. So…which was cool. I was all about that. And it was a long weekend because of the 4th of July. Most of the base was going to be shut down, other than, you know, getting your food, stuff like medical and all that stuff. And I remember this guy from—he came out of the administration building. I think he was a yeoman, which was a Remington Raider. And he was—he said, “What are you doing, you know, over the weekend?” I said, “I am just waiting to get out of here.” He says, “Well, why don’t you…” he says, “You know, they got a thing like they have in New Jersey where they have the, you know, the Ferris wheels and all this other stuff.” Interviewer: An amusement park kind of thing. Veteran: Yeah, it was an amusement park, but it was…Yeah, but it was a smaller one, but they had arcades there. And he says, “If you’re not doing anything,” he says, “let’s go on in and screw around with that.” I said, “Okay. I am not doing anything else.” So, I went in with him and we went into this arcade, and I was playing pinball, which I never really play, you know, but I was playing pinball. And the next thing I knew, this guy was not there. Two other guys had come in �47 and they were watching me play, you know, pinball and stuff. And so, they kind of introduced themselves as, I don’t know, some kind of a name—Rocky or something. Blah blah blah. They said, “I understand that you might be looking for work.” And I said, “I am going back home.” I said, “I have a job secured at Brunswick Corporation, which incidentally, Jim, I forgot to mention this, that mortar that we did on the boat? Manufactured by Brunswick Corporation. I said, “Oh my gosh, I hope these guys weren’t taking a coffee break when they put this together.” (01:46:30) Veteran: But anyway, I said, “No, I am going—they are holding my job at Brunswick. I am going to go home.” And they said, “Well, we got work for you here.” And I said, “Doing what?” And they said, “Well, we know that you are a pretty fair marksman.” And basically, I am sifting through this, and I am thinking yeah, so what do you want? What does that mean? They said, “Well, you know…Would you like a job?” Without committing to what. I said, “No, I am going back home. I don’t want anything to do with this.” Well, after I began to think about this: who would know more about—and I don’t know whether these guys were government. I don’t know whether they were mob. I have no idea. But who else would be able to tell them that, other than the people that are working in the administration building and what you had in your records? If this guy is a marksman, we can use him for something. No. No, I am going home. I am going home. So, you know, that triggered while we were talking here. And I have told this to my wife, you know, and she…But I am here. I am here. You know, I didn’t want anything more to do with any of that business. So, came home. Went back to work at Brunswick and… (01:48:13) Veteran: Met my wife. And she knew I was a Vietnam vet. She didn’t know much about—some of her friends had come home in body bags. She’s a graduate of Mona Shores and some of her friends had come home in body bags. And she said, “You know Wes,” she said, “I used to be �48 cranked on, rah rah, United States, blah blah blah, at the beginning of this.” And she’s a schoolteacher. She’s college educated. Very smart gal. And she says, “As the war raged on and my friends were coming home in body bags,” she says, “it turned me so against that war. Not our soldiers but the war.” She says, “We could see…” I said, “One of the defining moments for me was Kent State. Fire upon your own people? Here are these people,” I said, “all they are there for was an education. Well, you gave them one.” And so, it kind of soured me that way. Like I explained to you before, it isn’t the war, the people that were involved in the war, it was the suits that put us there. And even though I have forgiven them, I will never forget about them. And I told my wife after we had our children, I said, “I will never ever allow my kids to go to war unless they are on our ground. If they are not a direct threat, there is no way on God’s green earth.” I said, “If I have to go to Alaska and raise potatoes and corn, you know,” I said, “no, it’s not going to happen.” (01:50:15) Interviewer: Okay. So, what kind of career did you go into? Veteran: I am a—actually, I went back to the Reserves. And my training officer was the union president at Story Chemical. And he had seen my progress and my stuff that I was studying and everything. He says, “You know,” he says, “there are some openings coming out at Story Chemical,” he says, “for a millwright and,” he said, “why don’t you come out and take a test.” I said, “What the heck is a millwright?” He says, “Well,” he says, “they are—” he says, “they are mechanics and,” he says, “but you have to go through a battery of tests to do that, to get into the program.” I said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you what…” His name was Darryl, Darryl Whitaker. I said, “I’ll tell you what Darryl,” I said, “I’ve got a couple weeks vacation coming from Brunswick.” I said, “If it is okay with them,” I said, “I’ll take a week out.” He says, “It’ll be about 3 days of a battery of exams over 3 days.” He says, “Not all day long.” He said, “But just—” I said, “Oh, okay.” I �49 said, “Like what?” he said, “Well, math.” He said, “General aptitudes, you know. Mechanical aptitude. Stuff like that.” I said, “Okay.” So, it was in—so, I took the exams and they called me up and said, “Well, we’d like to hire you to go through our apprenticeship.” And it was through the U.S. Department of Labor. The whole nine yards. And I said, “Well, I have another week.” I said, “If it is alright with you,” I said, “I’d like to come out there and work in it for a week and then make my decision based on that.” They said, “That’s fine.” So, I did, and I did and I, you know, got into the program and three and a half years later, I became a journeyman. And I worked in that probably for…as a mechanic mechanic…they closed down in 1973, I think. (01:52:35) Interviewer: So, not too long then. Veteran: Not too long but we worked a tremendous amount of overtime, and they applied our overtime hours. Because you have to put in a certain amount of hours to become a journeyman. And that consists of—I had ICS courses, I had Dupont courses, I had courses at Muskegon Community College. So anyway, you had to take these courses. And I completed all that before my time anyway. And the U.S. Department of Labor waived that time. They said whether its overtime or whether it isn’t, it’s OJT: it’s on the job training. You know, so I got my card. And I worked in that trade for probably 40-some odd years, Jim, but not always as a millwright. I went back to school, went back into advanced MIG and TIG welding, metallurgy, machine shop, stuff like that, because these were the fun courses. These were. And I realized that I wasn’t college material, but I wanted a higher education in technology. But I am going to say probably for the last 30 years, before I retired, I was into supervision. (01:54:11) Veteran: And some of these—and I was in supervision at—I became the maintenance manager at Brunswick. I worked at various jobs. And I was kind of—I can see where my PTSD came into it. �50 I was an angry guy. And I mean if that supervisor—if I didn’t like his tie that day, I’d just quit, go on to something else. In that day and age, you could because skilled trades were just—you could go anywhere. Walk across a street and get a job there. Well, my wife and I were figuring this out here a while back and I had—over that course—I had 54 jobs. And part of the…When you have PTSD, a lot of that accompanies that. Being very, very restless. And I didn’t need an excuse to quit or anything. Sometimes I just quit. Got fired from a couple of jobs. In fact, one of them was Story Chemical. A guy was trying my patience for probably 3 months and I finally…I mean, I busted him up pretty good. And I am sorry for that now. I didn’t get fired because he had just gotten into on the golf course with the personnel manager the night before. So, I got out easy. Well, my punishment was I couldn’t drill anybody for 6 months, but this guy couldn’t shoot his mouth off to anybody for 6 months. So, I don’t know which one was worse. I think he got the worst of the deal. Interviewer: Alright. Now, you mentioned the PTSD. At what point did you recognize that you had that? (01:56:15) Veteran: I didn’t. Didn’t recognize it until—because back then it wasn’t a buzzword. Interviewer: Sure. Veteran: We had no idea, you know, that that was a—one of the common characteristics of post traumatic stress disorder. Gotten into fights…And I mean at one time, before my wife and I were married, before I met her, I mean, my big deal was pizza, beer, and fight night. You know? And that’s kind of a sad thing to say, you know. Again, what did I turn into? You know? And you go through this elf analysis over the years, you know, of why did I become what I became? What prompted that? And but after—of course, after we had met and, you know, we had our kids and �51 all that stuff and—I think I was very nice to my kids. I was very tolerant of them. My wife and I had a very rocky first seven years. Very rocky. But the Lord bless. And I knew that I loved her. I wasn’t so sure at that time whether she liked me a whole lot, but we held it together and we are extremely happy now. Both of us are involved in ministry right now, one of them being in the Veterans Treatment Court from Muskegon County. She works with the veterans’ wives of us crazy guys that, you know…And quite frankly, Jim, they are suffering from secondary PTSD. Interviewer: Oh yes. (01:58:08) Veteran: You know, for the most part a lot of the times in self defense of the guy that—or person—that they married. We were fortunate that our marriage worked out. What breaks my heart is there are a lot of them that don’t. Sometimes you can get to them in time, sometimes you can’t get to them in time. But when I made the move—I was ordained in 2007. And at the time, the church that I was—I was a pastor of visitation in evangelism. And we had decided to start a campground ministry. And we did that. We bought a trailer and a truck, and all that jazz and we went out to the campgrounds. And I made a little display of all the flags, you know, the United States flag and the flag of Israel, and the Vietnam flag and the POW flag. And these guys would always come by, and they’d ask me about some of these flags and all that stuff. The majority of them were veterans. And of course, they’re—a lot of them were baby boomer veterans, same age as me or within a couple years one way or the other. And I told my wife, I said, “You know, I am wondering if the Lord is really directing us to minister to combat vets?” And my wife in her infinite wisdom, she said, “Well, Wes,” she said, “what a shoe in.” She says, “You are a combat vet. Who can they relate to better than someone who’d been there, done that?” Interviewer: Yeah. �52 Veteran: And the majority of them—she was right. The majority of these guys will not talk to people unless you are a combat vet because then their whole thing is, if I can quote, “You ain’t been there, you ain’t done it.” Well, okay. Interviewer: Yeah. (02:00:20) Veteran: You know? And so, a boyhood friend of mine at the time was the director of the Veterans Affairs for Muskegon County. A fellow by the name of Dave Ealing. Very good friend of mine. We were raised together. And he said, “Wes,” he said, “you have been a pastor for a while now and,” he says, “I know that you are not pastoring in that position in that church anymore.” I said, “No.” I said, “You know,” I said, “I feel my—that the Lord is directing me outside of the church.” I said, “Because you know Dave,” I said, “a majority of these guys don’t go to church.” And I says, “And I am not saying that the answer,” I said, “is in religion, but it— for me—it is in the relationship with Christ, not the church.” And I said, “I see the downfall in manmade rules, manmade things,” I said, “that aren’t really Biblical.” And I said, “And I can’t do that.” I said, “When I deal with these guys,” I said, “I am constantly reminded these are my brothers. These are souls. And I can’t help them if I don’t believe in what I am doing.” I said, “If that makes sense.” He says, “It makes perfect sense. When are you coming down?” Well, we went through that for about 3 years, Jim. I finally relented and I said, “Well, Dave,” I said, “if you got a place for me down—” he says, “I got a room for you.” And he says, “And we can set you up.” And he did. (02:02:16) Veteran: And we started ministering on a counseling basis with other vets. Then we had a new wave that was sweeping in the judicial system, dealing with vets. It was called Treatment Courts. Dave had gotten some people together to go down to—or over to—Washington D.C. It was their first boot camp. And we went and we got our prosecutor to go. We had the sheriff go. The judge �53 went. Myself, my wife went. Of course, David. And what an eye opener that was because you’re rubbing shoulders with people that want to make the difference in a veteran’s life and give them a second chance for those that are dealing with post traumatic stress disorder, traumatic brain injuries, or closed head injuries. And it just made perfect sense to us, and we did that. We had a group of people that would come in—before we went to Washington D.C.—we had a group of people that was doing this out in Oklahoma, you know, places like that. Which made a tremendous amount of sense to all of us. And we did that. And we were getting veterans in there and, Jim, it was making a difference in their lives. What we found over the years that—what’s happening with these guys—first of all, they go in for care to the VA. And thank God there is a VA, by the way. I have never gotten poor care from them. And I am 100% disabled through them. But what would happen is that a lot of these guys would be put on psychotropics. (02:04:30) Veteran: And they would get out and they would mix these psychotropics with alcohol or drugs or both. And that turns into a very toxic cocktail. And they run in, and they have brushes with the law. And it’s usually DUIs and all of that. Some of them are domestic disputes. We generally don’t take cases that are violent cases. Murder, rape, that type of thing. But we have taken some that have gotten into domestic violence. And we found that it made a big difference. One of our key, star guys tried to commit suicide twice by bullet. He was so drunk he said, and Dan will laugh at this time about, you know, when he talks about this. He said, “I was so drunk.” He said, “I had it in right at my head,” he says, “and I was so drunk,” he said, “I passed out. The gun fired. The bullet went into the wall.” And he said, “What I am here for is that a discharge of firearm inside the village limits.” And he turned out to be a world class guy because he is a �54 mentor now in our court. And we are getting more and more people that have gone through that court to become mentors in helping these people. (02:06:16) Interviewer: Are you dealing mostly with sort of your generation? Are you getting younger veterans now? Veteran: We are getting—oh yeah, we are getting young vets. Because now, the Iraqi vets are the older vets. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: You know? And the Afghan vets not—they are coming in but not like the Iraqi vets did. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, we sent rather larger numbers of people to Iraq than Afghanistan. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: I mean, we were in Afghanistan first but— Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: But in relatively small numbers to start with but yeah, but it is still ongoing. Yeah. Veteran: And but at first it was Vietnam vets. You know, that’s what got around. Of course, we are baby boomers and that seemed to get around. But when we came to the Iraqi vets, boy, what a treasure trove of guys that was. Lots of them. Lots of them, Jim. And a lot of them are dealing with moral injury. A lot of them. One of the guys was telling me, he said he was involved in armor. And he said and we would go by, you know of course, they had this Republican guard and all this and blah blah blah. He says they didn’t stand a chance, he says, against our �55 firepower. Not a chance. He says our tanks were so much more advanced than theirs. Laser lockon and all that business. And he said, “You know, you’d go by on your way to Baghdad, and you’d go by these tanks that were just burned-out cinders. And,” he said, “sometimes the bodies were still on there and…” And I say, “You know, the sad part about that is is that that’s somebody’s brother.” Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Or…That’s the thing that I always come back to, Jim. And I know dealing with moral injury…I know how that feels. So, I can relate to these guys, how that feels. And how to approach them about that because you know a lot of these guys, they harbor that. They hold that in, and they harbor that, thinking that if I—same way I felt. If I tell that to my wife, is she going to think differently of me than when she first met me, even though I am the same guy? (02:08:28) Veteran: You know? And so, they harbor that, and they continue to live with it. And so, that’s the point of that ministry is to help. Not to beat them up with the Bible. You know, they don’t need that. They already know who they are and what they are, you know. They need to know that there is something outside of that. And the only way…And we used to hear all this business about psychology and this and that and the other thing. And I say, “And that’s okay to a certain level.” I said, “But sometimes, you’ve got to get to the inner level and that is the spirit. You can’t get there psychologically. You can only get there through faith.” And some of them disagree with me, and that’s okay. But I have seen in with my own eyes. I have seen what works. That coupled with psychology? Now you are doing something. You know? You are dealing with forgiveness; you are dealing with why you did what you did. You know, and when psychology comes into it, now we can help you from here. Now that you have recognized you have this �56 problem, now we can help you with this. And I thank the VA for doing that. And of course, the medical issues that they are dealing with. I am dealing a lot with the Agent Orange thing, which is concentrated in the rivers because of storm water runoff. Interviewer: Right. Right. (02:10:04) Veteran: So, we are dealing with that. We host a—several veterans events where they can just come and let their hair down. We were facilitators of a PTSD group for probably 7 years. And now, one of my best friends is now doing that with his wife. We just became so busy that…I attend this thing every once in a while, but, you know, and I should probably attend it more. Interviewer: Well, it’s a pretty long way from enlisting in the Navy to stay out of Vietnam and go on a battleship. Veteran: It’s a long ways. Interviewer: But you have kind of brought it around full circle and put yourself back into a good place and you can do positive things from where you are. Veteran: Well, it’s a good place for me. And I hope it is a good place for them. We try to. I am a cross between a pacifist and a patriot. I know that there is going to wars, and I know that there is going to be rumors of wars, Jim, I already know that. But where do we go from here? Where do we go with—in the wake of that? Where do we go? Do we become staunch and say we will just live with it, guys? And that’s just the way it is? Or…Are we going to be compassionate? And understand okay, I know why we went here is to protect our families and our grandkids and our freedoms, and all this business. But what about the wake of that? Because there—even though there is collateral damage, a lot of that is with our own troops. A lot of it is with our own troops. �57 Interviewer: Yeah, very much so. Alright. Veteran: But anyway, I…We are where we are, and I am where I am. And I am comfortable in that. We—I would like to see more veterans comfortable with that. And my wife and I are both working toward that. And sometimes, that’s a long struggle, Jim. That isn’t something you get over overnight, particularly when you have been dealing with it for the last 47, 48, years. 50 years for some. Interviewer: Alright. Alright. Well, thank you very much for coming in and sharing tour story today. Veteran: You are welcome. You are welcome. Thank you for having me. (02:12:37) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SpykeW2350V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Spyke, Wesley Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-02 Title A name given to the resource Spyke, Wesley (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Wesley Spyke was born in 1948 in Muskegon, Michigan. He graduated from high school in 1966. He enlisted in the Navy Reserve in April of 1968. Wesley completed bootcamp at Naval Station Great Lakes, Illinois. He became a gunner’s mate in the Navy. He received additional gunnery training in Coronado, California. Wesley did small arms training at Camp Pendleton, California. He received orders to Vietnam in July of 1969. He was initially stationed at Dong Ha, Vietnam. Wesley did river security on riverboats for about 5 months. He then was moved to a base at Cua Viet, Vietnam, where he continued to do river patrols and aided in extractions and insertions of Special Forces personnel at various points along the riverways. While in Vietnam, Wesley was involved in various skirmishes. He returned from Vietnam in July of 1970. He is now actively involved in ministry. Wesley and his wife currently work with the Veterans Treatment Court of Muskegon County. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6047d0e3342a839288b688f3c5468c81.mp4 7a7347c5a3837d8f9df0316e01dc29b1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/88707897ccffc54fe45b6782e416358c.pdf b27ee2365bab6550dd7fd1d1c30605ed PDF Text Text Slager, Kenneth Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Kenneth Slager Length of Interview: Interviewed by: Wallace Erichsen Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman INTERVIEWER: Today is March 15, 2019 and we are at Ray Brooke Retirement home in Grand Rapids, Michigan. We’ll be interviewing Reverend Kenneth Ray Slager who served in the US Marine Corps in World War II. Kenneth Ray Slager was born on June 11, 1925 and his residence is: 2111 Raybrook Avenue Southeast Apartment 1006 Grand Rapids, Michigan 49546 And I, as the videographer and interviewer and also the audio person, my name is Wallace Erikson, and I’m a volunteer interviewer with the history department at Grand Vallery State University, Allendale, Michigan. And this interview is being done as part of the Veterans History Project at the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. Now Ken, what is your full name and your date of birth? (1:48) My full name is Kenneth Ray Slager, I was born in June 11th, 1925. INTERVIEWER: And where is your place of birth, city and state? Kalamazoo, Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Okay, thank you. Which war did you serve in? World War II. Second world war. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And what branch of service and what was your highest rank? I was in the Marine Corps and I became a Corporal. INTERVIEWER: Okay thank you. Where did you serve? What theater of the war? What theater? �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: What theater. Pacific. INTERVIEWER: Pacific, okay. Island hopping. INTERVIEWER: Well if you’re born in Kalamazoo then, Ken, where did you grow up? Just east of Kalamazoo in a community called Comstock. INTERVIEWER: I see and what did your father do for a living there? He did a variety of jobs but he ended up working for Upjohn Company. (2:55) INTERVIEWER: Oh I see, what did he do for that? He worked in the lab where they ran their first run to see how it would work in the production. INTERVIEWER: Sure. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Biological laboratory then, I assume. Something like that. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. How many siblings did you have, brothers and sisters? I had 2 sisters and 1 brother. INTERVIEWER: Okay. I was the oldest. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And where did you go to high school then? Well after graduating from Christian school in Comstock I went forward to Kalamazoo Christian High School. We rode our bicycles four miles. INTERVIEWER: Oh my. To and from. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: You also went to Comstock Christian Elementary School, is that right? Mmhm. INTERVIEWER: I see. Mmhm. Two room school. INTERVIEWER: Oh my, was it out in the country or in the little village of Comstock? It was part of the community. INTERVIEWER: I see. Went to church there too of course. INTERVIEWER: What church did you go to in Comstock? Comstock CRC. INTERVIEWER: Christian Reform Church? Right. INTERVIEWER: I see. (Long pause) Did you have any employment when you were in grade school or high school? (4:38) Well when I was in my early teens I was working for my uncle in the celery field. INTERVIEWER: I see, what was his name? Jacob Slager. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Okay. And then were you draft into the military? Yes. INTERVIEWER: I see. So you got a draft notice I assume? I just signed up for the draft on my birthday in June and in early September I was sent to Detroit for physical. INTERVIEWER: I see. How long after high school was that when you were drafted? �Slager, Kenneth Three months. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Did you go to Detroit then, did you take a train or how did you get there, do you remember? I think by train. INTERVIEWER: Okay. I don’t remember but I’m pretty sure that’s the way alright. INTERVIEWER: And that was the entrance station then at the draft station there for the military. And what happened there, then? Well as I was being processed they asked for volunteers for the Marine Corps, they needed a few extra men and if you would volunteer you could go back home for two weeks and that sounded pretty good to me so I signed up. INTERVIEWER: Do they give you any assurance of any sort of military occupation or MOS or at all? No, no. INTERVIEWER: The drafting at the draft board there. No. INTERVIEWER: So you had two more weeks of the civilian life, is that right? Right back to work. (6:27) INTERVIEWER: Okay. Did you go back then to Detroit after the two weeks or did you go someplace else? No, no. We boarded a bus for Chicago and in Chicago they put us in the Pullman car. I had an upper berth which was pretty nice and we clickety-clacked across the country to Los Angeles. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Where did you go through basic training then? �Slager, Kenneth San Diego. INTERVIEWER: San Diego. Marine Corps Recruit Depot then. Right. (7:03) INTERVIEWER: Okay. How long were you there at the basic training? About four months. Two months in boot camp and two months in infantry training. INTERVIEWER: I see… where was the infantry training, was that at San Diego also? The what? INTERVIEWER: The Infantry training? Was that at San Diego? Right. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember any of your drill instructors, what they were like or what they were named or anything by chance? Well I know he had a strong voice. I’m trying to recall his name but I can’t recall his name now. He put us through our paces, he was an excellent DI. INTERVIEWER: You could hear him across the drill deck I bet. That’s right. INTERVIEWER: You could probably still hear that voice sometimes. Yeah well I… when we were in the rifle range, we were returning from an evening program, four or five platoons and he was calling the cadence for all five platoons. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, haha.. What were the first few days of your service, and your training your basic training, what were they like? What do you remember about them? I really don’t remember much at all. Nope. I’m drawing much of a blank there I know I got rid of my civilian closed and got GI clothes, sent the other clothes back home. That was it. INTERVIEWER: But any particular instances that come back to your mind as far as, you know the drill instructor yelling at you or hollering at everybody trying to get you to line up? �Slager, Kenneth Yup He was very strict and one fella, instead of washing his clothes he would just take one of his briefs and get it wet and hang it up and he got caught at it, so the DI told him to throw it on the ground which is red clay. Then he marched the platoon back and forth over it, he said “Now you get it clean.” INTERVIEWER: So you had to wash your own clothing in it? Oh yeah, every evening. INTERVIEWER: I expected you to use soap and water I suppose. Yeah, whatever they had there. At least our underwear, yeah. (9:55) INTERVIEWER: What did it feel like, then, the first few days in basic training? I probably felt lost. I wasn’t at home and I wasn’t completely comfortable there either, I guess. Took a while to adjust. INTERVIEWER: Yeah you weren’t really used to it yet. Yup. But they didn’t give you a lot of time to think about it. INTERVIEWER: That helps, probably. Woke you up early in the morning and kept you busy all the time til it was time to get back in the sack. INTERVIEWER: Even the evenings, was that pretty much regimented as far as the trainings with the drill instructor? The what? INTERVIEWER: The evenings after the evening meal? Were you busy at that time also with the drill instructor? During the infantry training you mean? INTERVIEWER: Well in basic training after the evening meal or did you have these evenings to yourself? Oh they found things to do, yeah. INTERVIEWER: They kept you busy, yeah. �Slager, Kenneth Polish your rifle or polish your shoes. INTERVIEWER: Right, yeah. Clean your rifle as you would say, polish your shoes. INTERVIEWER: Well how did you get through the basic training then? How did I get through it? INTERVIEWER: How did you get through it, yeah. I did what I was told! INTERVIEWER: You followed instructions, right? (11:19) (Slager laughs) INTERVIEWER: Okay. Your rifle training then? Where? INTERVIEWER: Where. I don’t remember where, I know it was up in the higher elevation and it got very cold at night. INTERVIEWER: But near San Diego, is that right? Not too far from San Diego, nice general area. When we’d go out to the rifle range in the morning we had to have plenty of clothes on to stay warm. But the time we came back at noon we had most of it off, it was pretty warm. INTERVIEWER: And how long were you there? Three weeks of rifle training. INTERVIEWER: Three weeks, okay. And the first full week was only the snapping and we never did any firing. INTERVIEWER: But they taught you how to hold a rifle and adjust the swing properly and all that? Right. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: It’s an interesting turn, snapping in. They still use it in the Marine Corps. I suppose. INTERVIEWER: One of those things. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… where did you go after basic training? Did you go to advanced training after that? Infantry training, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Oh I see. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And that was also at San Diego? Mmhm. INTERVIEWER: How long were you at infantry training? Two months. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yup. We were… INTERVIEWER: Backing up just a bit here, Ken, when did you enter the military then or when were you drafted, what date? September… let’s see… two weeks after the 9th, anyways. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so you were at the entrance station there. About 23 I guess. INTERVIEWER: On the 9th. September 23. INTERVIEWER: On the 23rd, what year then was that? �Slager, Kenneth 1943. INTERVIEWER: ‘43, okay. Okay. What did you do in infantry training when you went to infantry training in San Diego. Well, um… INTERVIEWER: What sort of things did you learn? Mostly just… do as your told, I guess. INTERVIEWER: Did you learn about specific weapons like machine guns or? Oh yeah, several. INTERVIEWER: Bazookas and that kind of thing? (14:07) Yeah that was on the rifle range. INTERVIEWER: Oh I see. Oh, the rifle range was part of the infantry training is that right? Mhm. INTERVIEWER: I see. Yeah. Three weeks. INTERVIEWER: And then at the end and infantry training thats, I assume, when you graduated is that right? Yeah you had, after the near the end of the three weeks they had you fire four a record and the fella next to me his target didn’t have any holes and mine had a lot of ‘em so… I think I got his shots, credit for his shots. INTERVIEWER: You had more holes in your target then you had bullet casings is that right? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: That would give you a good high score. It did, unfortunately. I was qualified as a BARman, Browning Automatic Rifle. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Oh I see. When did you graduate though from basic training, do you remember that? It’s usually a big parade isn’t it? I don’t think it was that much for us. It was war time and they were just interested in getting us overseas. INTERVIEWER: I see. I suppose there was some kind of ceremony but I don’t remember it at all. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Where did you go after San Diego then? Well we got aboard the SS President Tyler, 2700 of us, and took a 28-day trip to Guadalcanal. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Stopping at New Caledonia on the way, we crossed the pacific all by ourselves, no escort, no protection. INTERVIEWER: What sort of ship had the SS President Tyler been? Had that been a passenger ship? I guess so, and probably retired. INTERVIEWER: What was your—did you have a regular stateroom? Oh no no no, we had about 4 bunks in a tier. INTERVIEWER: Four bunks stacked up one on top of the other? Right. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And I was not on the top but I was not on the bottom either, thankfully. INTERVIEWER: So you went to Guadalcanal and you mentioned you stopped on what island? Actually went over as a replacement of a battalion. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yeah. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Do you remember what your battalion designation was? The battalion or regiment that you were in? No I don’t. INTERVIEWER: Okay. No… it was just a replacement battalion I don’t remember the number. INTERVIEWER: And you eventually went to guadalcanal, but I thought you mentioned you had also stopped at another island? (17:09) New Caledonia. INTERVIEWER: New Caledonia, okay… What did you do in New Caledonia? You know, they unloaded some fresh fruit which we never had. INTERVIEWER: Well that was a treat I’ll bet, at least for a few days anyway. Right. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… They managed to break a crate or two I think while they were unloading. INTERVIEWER: And at this point as you’re going overseas what was your military specialty there, were you a BAR? Yeah. Browning Automatic Rifleman. INTERVIEWER: A Browning Automatic Rifleman, okay, so Infantry then, right? Yeah, that was my [specialty]. INTERVIEWER: Okay… and when you’ve got to Guadalcanal what sort of a situation did you encounter there then? When you got to Guadalcanal? Well… we just were assigned to a particular place where they had tents set up for us and we were waiting to be assigned to specific units. INTERVIEWER: You were replacement personnel then. �Slager, Kenneth Right, and after a few days they put up a notice that everyone 6 feet or more tall to fall out at such and such a date and I did of course. And a short captain came and asked a few questions, and a day or two later I was assigned to an MP company. INTERVIEWER: I see… when you first arrived on Guadalcanal, Ken, was the fighting still going on? No, no, it’s secure. INTERVIEWER: The island was fairly secure? Yup. Yup. (18:54) INTERVIEWER: Okay… So you joined the MPs then, what was your unit designation at that point? It was MP Company and H&S Battalion, 3rd Amphibious Corps. INTERVIEWER: Okay. General Geiger was Commander. Roy S. Geiger. INTERVIEWER: That’s a famous name from… Yes! INTERVIEWER: World War II, yeah. Okay. Did you go through specific training at all to be an MP? I don’t remember, I suppose they taught us a few things. I remember one thing they said, “When you’re wearing that Brizard you’re just like Jesus Christ.” I didn’t quite agree with that, but what they meant was you were in charge. INTERVIEWER: Yeah that’s probably why they wanted people 6 feet or over. Right. INTERVIEWER: So that you could be in charge, you would look like you’re in charge. What was your actual job assignment then as a military policeman? Well, we did various things during invasions. We would sometimes escort admirals and generals who would come to view things, we would take care of the main gate if there was such a thing, we’d raise and lower the colors every day as part of our tasks. Supervise work in the brig, make sure everybody stayed there. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: The brig or jail, right? There’s no place to go if they got out, so, wasn’t too much of a problem but… and direct traffic. INTERVIEWER: We’re you broken up into—the company, were you broken up into platoons or did you have squads? No, not in the MP Company, no. I suppose we fall out in formation but they didn’t have us working separately as platoons or anything. INTERVIEWER: Would you be assigned like two, three, or four to a detail like the main gate, or? Yeah, they give us assignments every day or so. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yo wouldn’t be on your own specifically you probably would have two or three other MPs helping ya. Yeah, very often. (21:48) INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Did you see combat when you were in the Marine Corps? Well yes and no. I was not involved in combat as such. We were close to the front lines more than one occasion, once we were close enough that the cook was killed by a… I had the word and now I forgot. INTERVIEWER: Mortar round? Mortar dropped right in his fox hole. INTERVIEWER: Oh. Yeah. But for the most part we were behind the lines cause we were headquarters battalion. INTERVIEWER: No other than the cook you just mentioned, were there any other casualties in your unit like in H&S Company here? No, nothing too serious. The only thing I can remember is there was a fella by the name of Joe Sokolowski and he always walked with a rudy sticking out of his chest, and going through the line to get a shots and he keeled over. He wasn’t such a… INTERVIEWER: He wasn’t such a He-Man at that point. �Slager, Kenneth No. INTERVIEWER: What was Joe’s last name—what was Joe’s last name again? Sokolowski. S-o-k-o-l-o-w-s-k-i, I think something like that. INTERVIEWER: S-K-I… you recall where he was from? I think Chicago area. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. Yeah… did he eventually revive himself? I don’t remember. INTERVIEWER: Okay. He stayed. INTERVIEWER: He stayed dead, okay… Can you tell me about any other memorable experiences you had there? (23:55) Yes. INTERVIEWER: Maybe in policing the other Marines or other Navy personnel or whatever. I remember when I was on guard duty guarding the general's tent and about six o’clock in the morning he came out of the tent and his question was “How did the boys do during the night?” Which, in reflecting on that told me he was concerned about the personnel and their safety. Of course I had no idea how they had… but there had not been much firing that I had heard. INTERVIEWER: That’s probably a surprise question to you. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: As if he thought you had just come from the intelligence tent or something. Right. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. And another outstanding thing in my mind on Okinawa was I was directing traffic after… well let me get back up a bit. We had a season of rain, almost three weeks of continuous rain where they couldn’t get through on the roads, they had to bring things up to the front on the beach �Slager, Kenneth using amphibious tractors. So once it dried up they had to remove lots of bodies, and I remember a truck—a four by six truck coming by loaded with bodies on it like cordwood taking them from the front, and that was quite traumatic of course. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Some kind of stock and trade questions here then, Ken. Were you ever a prisoner of war? Was I a prisoner of war? No. INTERVIEWER: Okay… I guarded a few prisoners but I was never a prisoner of war. INTERVIEWER: Were you ever wounded in action? No. INTERVIEWER: Okay. No. INTERVIEWER: Were you awarded any individual medals or citations for individual bravery or anything like that? No, nothing like that either. INTERVIEWER: Okay… We stop— (Tape is changed.) Okay Ken, how long did you stay on Guadalcanal before moving on? I don’t know, it was not very long before we went on our first push which was Guam. INTERVIEWER: Mhmm.. So after Guadalcanal you went to Guam then, is that right? Well that was the invasion of Guam. INTERVIEWER: Okay, okay. Then we went back to Guadalcanal and then was the invasion of Okinawa. INTERVIEWER: How long were you on Guam? I don’t recall. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and again that— �Slager, Kenneth It didn’t take long because it was a small island and the people there knew what the American troops were like and so they gladly welcomed us. (27:22) INTERVIEWER: So they welcomed you ashore? The Okinawan Japanese had told them we were terrible people but on Guam they knew better. INTERVIEWER: Surprise, that wasn’t the case. Because of the US position. INTERVIEWER: So you went to Guam and then you went back to— Okinawa. INTERVIEWER: Guadalcanal? Back to Guadalcanal. INTERVIEWER: For a time. And then from Guadalcanal a second time where did you go after that? Then we did an invasion of Okinawa. INTERVIEWER: Okay Did you actually participate in the invasion or was that shortly after the invasion? Well, part of the invasion, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. You know, we went in D-Day plus one or two. INTERVIEWER: Okay… How was that? What was that like once you got ashore in Okinawa? Well… INTERVIEWER: Cause you were quite close at the time of the invasion. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Only a day or two after. �Slager, Kenneth Nothing comes to mind right now except what we talked about earlier of course, some of the things we talked about were on Okinawa. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember what part of the island on Okinawa that you landed on? No I don’t. INTERVIEWER: Okay. I know that the Marines landed next to the Army and we swept north but there was no opposition and in just a few days we were back on the line on the south end of the island. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: But again at that point you were still, you were in the military policemen then at that point. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So you’re directing traffic… Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And guarding the main gate and things like that to the compound. Guarding generals and admirals. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Escorting them. (29:23) INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Let me ask you a little bit about that then, Ken, escorting the generals and the bigwigs. Did they travel around a lot or just some? They would come just to see how things were going I guess, get fairly close to the front lines, check things out. Our job was to protect them, they didn’t get fired on by any enemies. INTERVIEWER: I assume they were in a Jeep. Yeah. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Most of the time, and did you have a convoy, did you have other Jeeps? Yeah usually. INTERVIEWER: Or trucks that you had? We had one Jeep ahead with several of us in it. INTERVIEWER: And then probably a Jeep or a truck in the back? Yeah, right. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Okay. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So they would at least get to the front line and did they visit other commands with other units? Well I imagine that was the idea, we didn’t get involved in that, we were just there to make sure they were kept safe. INTERVIEWER: You just went wherever they told you to go, right? (Long pause) So I’m assuming you guarded the Commanding General for the 3rd Amphibious Corps. Mmhm. INTERVIEWER: And that was General Geiger, is that right? Roy S. Geiger. (31:01) INTERVIEWER: What was he like? What kind of a General was he? Pleasant? Was he a hardnose or? No, he wasn’t hard nosed, no at least as far as I didn’t see that much of him, but what I did see of him he was… pretty much of a personal person, I guess I would say. INTERVIEWER: Personable? Personable. INTERVIEWER: Now that's a famous name, what was he really known for? Did he go on to command and Army or? �Slager, Kenneth He became Commandant, I think, of the Marine Corps. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and would that have been after the war then? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Vandegrift was Commandant during the war. INTERVIEWER: Okay… And he had been Commandant of the 3rd Amphibious Corps as well. INTERVIEWER: Was General Vandergrift, was he commanding general during the invasion of Guadalcanal, do you remember? Geiger was. INTERVIEWER: Oh Geigar was, okay. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So at that point then— Oh, no, at Guadalcanal? I think Vandergrift was it. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER: And then he became the Commandant of the Marine Corps, and then after the war General Geiger became Commandant. That’s where I recall the name from, I guess. Yup. INTERVIEWER: The list of Commandants. He was Commander of the 3rd Amphibious Corps. (32:36) INTERVIEWER: Lemme just ask you then, how did you keep in touch with your family then? By letter or telephone or what? �Slager, Kenneth No telephone, just by what they called Vmail. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I’ve heard of that. You’d write it and they would— INTERVIEWER: What was that like, the Vmail? Take a picture of it and they could get it on film on a very small space and then when they got to the states they would… INTERVIEWER: Develop it and print it. Enlarge it again, send it to the family. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Then were you able to get mail back then from the states, too? Oh yeah? INTERVIEWER: In the same way, by Vmail? Mhmm. Or regular mail too. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? Took awhile, often, to catch up with us. INTERVIEWER: What was the food like overseas? What kinda food did you have? Rations most of the time. Good cereal the time, I should say, but for the most part we had good warm meals. INTERVIEWER: So hot meals and… did you have like, mess halls? Not the first few days of an invasion but after you got set up, set up the kitchen, we had pretty good meals. INTERVIEWER: Did you have like, a regular mess hall or a vehicle or like a tent? Probably a tent, yes. A large tent. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. �Slager, Kenneth Yeah. INTERVIEWER: But the important thing was at least the meal was hot, right? Right. INTERVIEWER: And did you have plenty—or did you have enough supplies I should say? Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: As far as clothing? When we were on MP duty we could go to the front of the chow line. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. That was nice for us but the other guys didn’t appreciate it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah but if you go through the chow line real quick then you gotta go back on duty, isn’t that right? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yup, that was the idea. Probably get a half hour for meal time. INTERVIEWER: Did you feel any stressful situations when you were deployed overseas? No. I suppose at times I did but the most difficult experience for me was… right after Okinawa was secured my cousin was in the Army and was assigned to Okinawa, he came to shore a day or two about the time it was secure, and he was standing guard duty two days after the island was declared secure and a sniper shot him. My folks sent me a letter telling me he was on Okinawa and where he was and asked me to look him up, which I did. I did, I caught a ride detail to the other side of the island and found his Sergeant and I said “Do you have a Jim Slager here?” and he said “We had a Jim Slager.” INTERVIEWER: He was killed in action? Yeah, by a sniper while he was standing guard duty, like I said just a couple days after he was on Okinawa and the island was supposedly secure. INTERVIEWER: Secured at that point. �Slager, Kenneth But I could not write that home. INTERVIEWER: Yup. If I had it would have been blacked out INTERVIEWER: They would have deleted it out of it. So my folks kept writing me, “Do you know anything about Jim, do you know anything about Jim?” and I couldn’t answer til about… I suppose 30 days they notified the parents. INTERVIEWER: So eventually—Jim’s parents eventually were notified by the military. You’re right. INTERVIEWER: And the word probably got back to your folks. Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: That he’d been killed. They lived a few blocks from each other. INTERVIEWER: Oh. Oh my, no… (pause) How did you and your fellow Marines entertain yourselves overseas? Oh, well we played a lot of volleyball. Which makes sense with everybody 6 feet tall or taller. That was one way. (37:48) INTERVIEWER: It must of been games of the MPs verses the Infantry, right? No, usually just among ourselves. INTERVIEWER: Oh! Yeah, and usually once the island was secured you’d have a day on and a day off of duty, and the day off you could play volleyball, polish your shoes… INTERVIEWER: Rest a little bit. Whatever, wash your clothes. And they often had programs in the evening—movies of some sort, take those in. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Did you have entertainers like the Bob Hope Troupe that visited you guys? We never had the Bob Hope, no. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Any other entertainer groups? Not that I can recall, no. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Okay…. Okay, after Okinawa where did you go then, Ken? After Okinawa was secured we went to Guam, back to Guam. INTERVIEWER: Back to Guam. And we were preparing to invade Tokyo Bay, that was our next assignment. INTERVIEWER: And that would have been Japan, then. Right. INTERVIEWER: What happened to stop that? Well, President Truman, Harry Truman, decided to drop the Atomic Bomb and subsequently the Japanese surrendered. INTERVIEWER: Were you on Guam at the time that happened? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: When the bombs were dropped and the Japanese surrendered? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Then after V-J Day, where did you go after that? Then we went to Tientsin, China. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And we were there four months. INTERVIEWER: Were you on duty there then or was that? �Slager, Kenneth Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: On duty? Okay. Yeah. I guess they were afraid that the Russians were going to invade China, and we were there to see that didn’t happen. (40:13) INTERVIEWER: Were you posted at a military base or? Well we had… no it was not a military base. It was converted into a military base but it was just a large building, what it had been before I don’t recall, but we were—the headquarters were right in the downtown area in another building which we had to… INTERVIEWER: You guarded that, then, as an MP, too? Make sure that was secure. And, uh… INTERVIEWER: Okay… Were you there with other large infantry units, too? I mean a lot of other military personnel in China? Tientsin? Well that I don’t really know. I’m sure there were but we didn’t really see many of them. We had, basically, Marine Corps and Navy personnel on our base and they… some of them would see the town in the evening, we had to make sure they got the right treatment after they came in, if they were obviously had taken too much alcohol. INTERVIEWER: Get them to their barracks. Directly to the sick bay. (41:45) INTERVIEWER: Were you able to travel at all in China on your own or on leave or anything? Not on my own. They did give us one week where our unit, or a good share of our unit, went to Beijing for a week. INTERVIEWER: I see. Did a lot of looking around the city. INTERVIEWER: It was like a period of R&R, of rest and recuperation? Right. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Okay, yup. And then after your four months in China, where did you go from there? Then we boarded the USS Roi and sailed for San Diego. We stopped in Pearl Harbor for 12 hours. Nobody got off ship but we saw our first Coke-a-Cola truck in 2 years which was kind of interesting, and then we went right into San Diego. INTERVIEWER: And how long did you spend in San Diego, then? Not too long, just a few days and then they shipped me to Great Lakes Naval Training Station for discharge. INTERVIEWER: Okay. So that’s where you were discharged was in Great Lakes, Illinois, then. Right. INTERVIEWER: Okay. What date was that, do you remember? The date? INTERVIEWER: Or even the month and year. Early March, I think I got home about March 5th or something. INTERVIEWER: And what year was that? That would be… ‘46. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And after that did you come back to Comstock, Kalamazoo? Went home. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Gladly, haha. Yup. INTERVIEWER: What do you remember about your first few days out of the Marine Corps and out of the military? Anything particular there? No, I don’t have any recollection. I guess I went back to work? INTERVIEWER: Okay. �Slager, Kenneth For my uncle, on the celery farm. And then in the fall, September, I enrolled at Calvin College. INTERVIEWER: In what college? In Calvin College? Mhmm. INTERVIEWER: I see. Yeah. Pre-sem course, pre-seminary. I decided while I was overseas—well actually, while overseas that I became a committed Christan and decided to go into the Ministry. INTERVIEWER: What sort of a conversion experience did you have there when you were overseas, anything specific about that? No, I just know that when it happened I was… well, just, there were other fellas who were also committed Christians and we soon worked together at different times when we were off duty, especially in China we went to different Youth for Christ meetings that they had there. That’s where we met a lady by the name of Mrs. Fan. INTERVIEWER: Mrss Fan? Mrs. Fan, F-A-N. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And she had us for dinner several times. Didn’t hurt that she had two or three young daughters, but it was a very nice family. She had been in the states for a while so she spoke very good English. INTERVIEWER: So that was a connection, then. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, the language. Her husband was in South China overseeing some mining operation and we never met him but. Anyway, she even wrote a letter to my mother, to my folks, yeah. A very nice lady and… (46:23) INTERVIEWER: Did you take any photographs when you were overseas? I did not, no. INTERVIEWER: No photographs, okay. �Slager, Kenneth I did get pictures from other people but I didn’t have a camera myself. INTERVIEWER: Ken, when you enrolled in Calvin College as an undergrad did you know at that point that you wanted to go on and go through Seminary and become a pastor? Oh yeah, I was—my course was a Pre-seminary course, along with a lot of other vets. INTERVIEWER: Did you have the GI bill to help pay for it? Yes I did. INTERVIEWER: To help pay for that? Okay. For all the seven years except for one semester and then my wife was teaching so we could live on her, quote-unquote, “salary”. INTERVIEWER: I see. And you went through Calvin Seminary also, is that about right? Right. INTERVIEWER: Okay. For three years. INTERVIEWER: And you became an ordained Christian Reform Minister? Right. INTERVIEWER: Alright. Willmar, Minnesota. W-I-L-L-M-A-R. INTERVIEWER: Minnesota, that was your first church then, am I right? Right. INTERVIEWER: And was Willmar CRC? Christian Reform Church? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. It was just a new congregation, I was a new resident pastor. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Let me back up, you gave me a little clue here that you were married. When did you marry and what was her name? My wife’s maiden name was Alice Klein, K-L-E-I-N. INTERVIEWER: I see, and when? And we were married August 26th, 1949. INTERVIEWER: ‘49… was she a fellow student? Yes. INTERVIEWER: At Calvin, that’s how you met her? We met on the first day I was on campus. She had grown up in Detroit and had worked for Sanders Candy Company for several years and then came to Calvin, she had been there about a week I think, helping out with enrollment and so-on, working in the office and… another fella from Kalamazoo and I were walking together, we had just signed up for the GI Bill and I was telling him they had to—they were gonna send our applications to Detroit, as she was coming down the steps. And she said “Detroit, Detroit, did you say Detroit?” Well, that’s when we met. INTERVIEWER: That’s how you met, talk about Detroit. But I—we didn’t date until the following March. INTERVIEWER: I see. And then I had asked Mike Harvey Bulchum, my roommate, exactly who she was I couldn’t recall which gal it was, I knew I wanted to meet her but I couldn’t remember who she was. He told me. INTERVIEWER: Yeah…Well, backing up just a second here back to your time after the military then, Ken, did you make any lasting relationships with the people that you served with in the Marine Corps? For a year or two we did, and I don’t remember how many years it was afterwards we had a gather in the Illinois area, but that was the only time I did keep in touch with the few individuals. INTERVIEWER: Oh, do you remember their names? Especially one in California… The name won’t come to me now, but… INTERVIEWER: That’s alright. �Slager, Kenneth Russ Carver. INTERVIEWER: Ross Carter? Russ Carver. INTERVIEWER: C-A-R-V-E-R? Mmhm. INTERVIEWER: Okay… and he was in California then, right? He lived in Northern California. INTERVIEWER: Okay… Did you join any veterans organizations? No. INTERVIEWER: Okay. No, I was busy enough without. (50:58) INTERVIEWER: Alright. Then you get the church affiliated organizations keeping you going. Okay. I kinda thought I would have you speak a little then about where you served as a minister in the Christian Reform Church. You mentioned Willmar, Minnesota as your first church, where did you go after Willmar? A church called Lincoln Center which was in Grundy Center, Iowa. INTERVIEWER: I see. And then to the northwest Iowa town called Sibley. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And from there I went to Vancouver, Washington where I was an initial pastor of a new congregation. And then— INTERVIEWER: Was that Vancouver, Trinity? Vancouver, Washington. INTERVIEWER: Was that Trinity Christian Reform Church? �Slager, Kenneth Yes. INTERVIEWER: I see, okay, in Vancouver, Washington? Yeah. It’s right on the Columbia River across from Portland, Oregon. And then we went to Monroe, Washington which is northeast of Seattle. INTERVIEWER: Okay… was that New Hope Fellowship? That’s what they call it now. INTERVIEWER: Okay. That’s the name now then, I understand. When did you retire, then? INTERVIEWER: 1983. Or, 19… my pension began in January 1 of 1983. I see. INTERVIEWER: Did you retire in 1988 then? Pardon? INTERVIEWER: Was it actually 1988 when you stopped working? Well, it was actually just November of ‘87. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. For as far as Social Security was concerned. INTERVIEWER: Okay. As far as the pension it was January 1 of ‘88, so. INTERVIEWER: Okay. After you served your last church and retired from the Christian Reform Church as a minister, Ken, where did you move from there? We moved back to Michigan to my hometown into the house I grew up in and we were there about 19 years, then we moved to Grand Rapids. INTERVIEWER: I see. Did your parents lived in the house when you first moved back? �Slager, Kenneth No. My father had died and my mother was in assisted living and the house was vacant. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. So, I retired a little bit early and moved in and kinda helped take care of my mother. INTERVIEWER: Right. Ken, let me just ask you about your military experience and how that might have influenced your thinking about war and about the military in general. And let me also add your later experience as a minister—either of those things, you know, the experience the military, any particular thing. (54:11) Well, I think the one thing that I got into because of my military experience was chaplain for the Civil Air Patrol. INTERVIEWER: I see. And that was for… ended up being about 35 years in different locations, including Vancouver and Monroe; Everett, Washington and Kalamazoo and Battle Creek, Michigan after I moved back here. INTERVIEWER: Were you able to fly with some of the pilots with civil air patrol? One time. INTERVIEWER: One time, okay. You were mainly a chaplain, then. And my wife and the youngest daughter went along, too. INTERVIEWER: Oh, good. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Good, yeah. But then did your experience in the military and later as a minister, that particularly affect your thinking about the military and the war in general. Probably. I don’t recall that it, you know that I specifically applied military experience, but I’m sure that it affected me. INTERVIEWER: Okay. (The camera view changes to show a patch and three medals on a white background, from left to right. The patch is red and shaped like a shield, with the numeral III and what looks like snake or dragon embroidered in yellow. From left to right, the medals appear as: navy, yellow, white, and red stripes with a medallion with the image of a woman; yellow, white, and dark red stripes �Slager, Kenneth with a medallion featuring [UNKNOWN]; yellow and two thin red strips with a medallion featuring [UNKNOWN]. Erikson is pointing at the items individually with a pen.) INTERVIEWER: Now, Ken, we have several medals and a patch here. What is this patch? That’s the designation of 3rd Amphibious Corps. INTERVIEWER: And you wore that on your uniform? Yes. INTERVIEWER: Is that right? On our sleeve. INTERVIEWER: Right. And what is this medal? World War II medal. INTERVIEWER: World War II medal, right. (Erikson points to the second medal.) This is the Asia-Pacific campaign? Yes. (Erikson points to the third medal.) And China. INTERVIEWER: And China service, okay. Mhmm. (56:02) (The scene changes. On a white piece of paper are two objects: a religious service brochure for the III Amphibious Corps (left) and a booklet detailing the activities of the III Amphibious Corps in World War II (right).) INTERVIEWER: Okay, this brochure looks like a religious service Order of Worship, is that right? Yes, at the conclusion of the war, gratitude for peace. INTERVIEWER: I see. That the war was over. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: And this booklet here, what is that? That’s just telling about the first activities of the 3rd Amphibious Corps. INTERVIEWER: I see. Up until the Invasion of Guam. INTERVIEWER: Okay. (56:40) (The scene changes. A garrison cap sits on a white sheet of paper.) INTERVIEWER: Now the garrison cover here, again, was that yours during the war? Yes it was. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yes. INTERVIEWER: With the— Part of my uniform. INTERVIEWER: —Eagle, globe and anchor here. That’s right. Eagle, globe and anchor. INTERVIEWER: Alright. (The camera view changes. It is a headshot of Slager, but the background has changed.) INTERVIEWER: Well Ken we’re about at the end here, let me just ask you is there anything else you would like to add to the interview? That I’d like to add? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, right. Not that I can think of right now. INTERVIEWER: Okay. �Slager, Kenneth Thankfully got home safely. INTERVIEWER: Well we’re glad that came about. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And we’re glad the Lord watched over you while you were overseas. Right. INTERVIEWER: Watched over your family throughout your career as a minister here in the United States. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Well I wanna thank you about your sharing your recollections with us about your military service, and I want to add that the interview is going to be part of the Veterans History Project at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. and also will be part of the archive at Grand Valley State University in Allendale, Michigan. Again I want to thank you for participating in the Veterans History Interview. No, thank you for asking me. INTERVIEWER: You’re quite welcome. Including me. INTERVIEWER: Thank you, Ken. (58:25) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SlagerK1767V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Slager, Kenneth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05 Title A name given to the resource Slager, Kenneth (Interview transcript and video), 2015 Description An account of the resource Kenneth Slager was born on June 11, 1925 in Kalamazoo, Michigan, where his father worked for Upjohn Pharmaceutical Company. Slager was the oldest of four children in his deeply religious family, attended Kalamazoo Christian High School, and worked for his uncle’s celery field during his early teenage years. He received a draft notice in the summer of 1943 and opted to volunteer for the Marine Corps. He underwent Basic Training in San Diego and spent two months in Marine Boot Camp before graduating onto two months of Advanced Infantry Training. He was then shipped to New Caledonia and then Guadalcanal aboard the USS President Tyler, without escort, in a Replacement Battalion. Slager arrived at Guadalcanal after the fighting had receded and was assigned to a Military Police Company in the Headquarters Battalion, Third Amphibious Corps. As an MP, he escorted Admirals and Generals, guarded gates and entrances, directed traffic, guarded the Corps’ Brigg, as well as raised and lowered the American flag each day. From Guadalcanal, Slager was involved in the invasion of Guam in the summer of 1944 and was also allocated towards the invasion of Okinawa where he escorted high-ranking personnel. Slager’s cousin was also serving in Okinawa in the Army, but he was killed by an enemy sniper while on guard duty, which was devastating for Slager. From Okinawa, he was transferred back to Guam in preparation for the proposed invasion of Tokyo Bay, Japan. However, the invasion was called off after the use of the atomic bombs leading to its unconditional surrender. Slager was then sent to China for four months under fears that the Soviet Union would stage an invasion of China. Afterwards, he was shipped back to the San Diego aboard the USS Roi and was transferred to Great Lakes Naval Station for discharge in March of 1946. Slager then returned home to Kalamazoo, enrolled into Calvin College, became an Ordained Christian Reformed Minister out of Willmar, Minnesota, and married his wife in August of 1949. He fully retired by January of 1988 and decided to move back to his childhood home to take care of his elderly mother before moving to Grand Rapids, Michigan and partaking in the Civil Air Patrol. Reflecting upon his service, Slager did not believe that the Corps left a lasting impression on his character other than exposing him to a personal religious awakening in China. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5efeab1d4c059ad954c6fc3fc808691.mp4 28c198443a28e90d5a1ca9fd2ed93990 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5df9fc3d8cb089a875b32137e66b1c7.pdf 08a687c24f0f46a4a0d057bdb1693714 PDF Text Text Senior, Alan Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Alan Senior Length of Interview: (50:53) Interviewed by: Tony Lupo Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “Here with Alan Senior, February 20, 2003. Served in World War II, Sergeant in the U.S. Army Air Corps, and he was a waist gunner on a B-24. Could you describe when you heard about Pearl Harbor and what effect did it have on you and your family?” I remember very distinctly what I was doing on December 7, 1941. I was riding in a girlfriend’s car. I was sitting in the middle next to her and there was another girl on the other side, and we were just driving around visiting some friends. The announcement came over the radio about the attack and the reaction, as you can imagine, to some juniors in high school was wondering what’s going to happen. What’s going to happen to us as we were of the military age, coming up. It wasn’t any great feeling of despair, shock, and worry. We just knew that we were going to be at war and we were going to win it. It never occurred that anything else could be the outcome. (1:36). Interviewer: “Were you drafted or did you enlist?” I came close to being drafted but I did enlist in the Voluntary Induction Program. I wanted to be a flyer and the only way you could assume that you were going to be in the Air Force was to join the Air Cadets. So I proceeded to take the exams and did that all. I even had my service record with me except— the one part that wasn’t accepted and completed was the weight and the physical. Being a skinny kid at 17 at the time, I only weighed 121 pounds and I had to weigh 128 to get in. Here I was, with the countdown to my 18th birthday coming in May and I couldn’t gain any weight. So, we worked around that. A friend of mine told me about drinking a gallon of water because of “the pint a pound the world around.” We got in my dad’s car, drove to the post office in Buffalo. New York and parked outside on the street— early morning— and I proceeded to drink as much of that gallon of water as I could except for maybe an inch or two on the bottom. I just couldn't hold anymore and told my friend, “Let’s go.” He steered me across the street up to the fourth floor of the federal building and when I got up there— I had been up there several times before trying to get weighed to pass. There was a line stretching down the hall around the corner and I said to my friend that I’ll never make it if I have to stay at the bottom of �that line. So I went up to the Sergeant who knew me by sight— by that time— and he said, “Senior, what are you doing here?” I said, “Sir, I want to get weighed.” He said okay, so he stopped the line, I stepped on the scales, and he asked me how much I was supposed to weigh. I said, “128.” He said, “You just made it. Now get the heck out of here.” You can imagine how happy I was at the time and I have to say, we never passed a gas station on the 14 mile ride home. (4:18). Interviewer: “Why did you pick the service branch that you joined?” Oh. I always wanted to fly. I wanted to be a pilot and I just couldn’t imagine being in the Navy or the Army, I just had to do that. I would not have— I can’t imagine what life would have been if I hadn’t been to the Air Force. Interviewer: “Do you recall your first days in the service and what did it feel like?” There were two of us from— that were going into the Air Force. I was living in a small town of under 6,000 people outside of Buffalo, New York. So my two friends would board the train at night, going to Greensboro, North Carolina where we had basic. That was the last I saw my two friends. They went their way and I went mine. They both became— I think— navigators, and I didn’t quite make it through the Air Cadet program. I became your aerial gunner. So basic training was in June in North Carolina— wasn’t any great hardship. It was quite a change of life for me. I was the only child and there’s not too many accommodations you have to make. The biggest one I had to make in the service was eating the army food because it wasn’t all good, in my opinion. (6:12). Interviewer: “After boot camp and gunnery training where exactly were you stationed? What unit were you attached to?” Well the basic training, and then I went to a couple training schools, and then after that I made it to Laredo, Texas for gunnery. Like the Army does things, I attended the winter in Vermont and the gunnery school in Texas [for] June, July, and August. And it was hot. In fact, I have the clipping that was taken out of the base paper that said, “The mercury skids to refreshing 113.” Talk about gaining weight, I lost what little weight I had then and when I left I weighed 115. It got so hot that we couldn’t fly the airplanes because they couldn’t be serviced. Physical training was canceled, which the Army never does, but it just was miserable. That’s where I learned how to drink iced tea. We were out on the gunnery range and they had a big wash-tub there and they’d throw 100 pound cakes of ice in there and then throw the tea in there. Then you— at break time— you took a canteen cup and elbowed your way up to the wash-tub to get yourself a cold drink. �Interviewer: “What unit were you ultimately attached to?” At that time we were still in the training mode so it wasn't a unit so much. From there we went to Lincoln, Nebraska where we became assigned to a crew. There was a pilot, a co-pilot, and all the other elements and jobs assigned. The way it turned out, I’ve been trained as a nose gunner. Come to find out they had two nose gunners, so they didn’t have any turret guns. [With] my enthusiasm I said, “Well I’ll do that.” I didn’t realize that was going to mean considerably more hours training to use the ball turrets. It’s not claustrophobic for me, it was just the idea of being isolated that bothered me a little bit, but all my work and worry was mitigated when we went to England because the Second Air Division had decided to take out the ball turrets. So, I became a waist gunner which was much better. I knew what was going on as a waist gunner because I could see more than the pilot or anyone else. Although, statistically the waist gunners suffered the highest casualty rate of any position on the airplane, which I didn’t learn until later. It wouldn’t have much difference because you’re there. You’re either going to make it or break it. (9:27). Interviewer: “Do you remember arriving at your base in England and where was this base located?” Well first let me say that we flew overseas. We picked up a brand new B-24 and flew— we picked it up at Topeka, Kansas and flew it to Grenier Field, New Hampshire. Then on our way overseas we flew to Goose Bay, Labrador [and] Bluey Islet, Newfoundland. Then, from there to Iceland— and because of the weather we spent two glorious weeks in Iceland— and flew onto Wales. From Wales we left our airplane, were picked up by transport, and taken to another supply base for a few days. We were assigned to the 446 Bomb Group in Bungie, Norwich which is [in] East Anglia, sort of northeast from London. Interviewer: “Could you describe your living conditions at your base?” It was the usual barracks with the cots. What was different from the barracks in the states was they had three little charcoal stoves and the mattresses, instead of being all one piece, there were three different separate pieces— they were called biscuits and they were always separating while you slept, and you sagged down in between the biscuits. But, it was fine. It wasn’t a hardship at all. I didn’t feel that it was bad. (11:22). Interviewer: “How many missions did you fly, and over what period of time?” We arrived in England in January and we started flying, I suppose, in March. We only flew ten missions and the war ended. I flew— the last mission that the 8th Air Force flew on April 25, 1945 to Salzburg, Germany. It was my second trip— or our second trip to Salzburg, which is in �Southern Germany bordering the Alps. So we flew ten missions from March, no maybe it was February to April 25. We were flying quite regularly, so we would have had our 30 missions in pretty soon if the war had not ended. Interviewer: “Do you remember or could you list specific or typical mission targets or objectives?” Well as the war was winding down, the Air Force was asked to concentrate on transportation; which would be the trains, the synthetic gasoline, and airfields. Really, the way it turned out afterwards, if the United States–– or the Allies–– had concentrated on those targets the war might have ended earlier because the railroads were rebuilt over the next few days and were in operation at night; but the bridges, the airfields, and particularly the oil and the ersatz gasoline. They couldn’t move without the oil, and they produced just as many airplanes when the war was ending as they did at the start of the war–– some 8,000 units–– but they didn’t have enough fuel or enough pilots to fly them. They couldn’t practice, they couldn’t teach anybody to fly the Me262, which was a wonderful airplane–– 100 miles faster than the P-51–– and it was fortunate for us that they didn’t because it would have devastated the bomber train. (14:17). Interviewer: “Could you describe your duties during the mission? For example, what tasks did you perform, what were the problems encountered, and how do you feel your job contributed to your bomb group’s success?” I was trained as an armorer and I was an armored gunner for the group for the crew. A lot of the training for armor was taken over by the ground crew, so my duties didn’t involve the installation of the guns or anything with the gun barrels because the ground crew did that. I did the distributing of the escape packets and the rations that we would use if we had to bail out. Primarily, my biggest job–– the most responsible job–– was arming the bombs, which was the method of putting in arming wires attached to the bomb racks and taking out the cotter pins. In the tail fuse they had a propeller [which] was held in place by a cotter pin. My job was to collect all the cotter pins so I could show the pilot afterwards that I had–– that the bombs were armed when they left the airplane–– then [to] insert the wires. In one particular mission–– the weather was always bad and in this mission it was bad. As we approached 10,000 feet–– we had to go on oxygen at 11,000 [feet]–– I was told to go ahead and arm the bombs, which I did. I [had] just sat down and in about 15 minutes the pilot said, “The mission is off, go put the cotter pins back in.” By that time we’re passing towards 11,000 feet–– it gets a little bit cold and you can’t take the cotter pins out with your gloves on, and you can’t have an oxygen mask there. I was one of those people who–– I required my oxygen before 11,000 feet–– I felt better with that. I put the cotter pins back in, took out the arming wires, and put the carbons back in. Then went back to the waist and sat down and in ten minutes I was told the mission was on again, take the cotter pins out, put the arming wires in. This time it’s close to 11,000 feet and it’s getting colder because this was �still in the wintertime or springtime. I did that, collected my cotter pins and sat down again and it wasn’t ten minutes more and I was told to put the cotter pins back in. By that time the cotter pins looked like a snake–– they were bent out of shape, I couldn't get them in the holes, it was getting cold, and you had to be careful because desperation started to take over and you couldn’t let the crew down. I said, “I’ve got to do this,” and the cotter pins kept dropping on the bomb bay and then I’d have to move over and I couldn’t reach it with one hand, so I’d have to reach it with two and that means propellers start turning. Just by force of will I was able to get those bent cotter pins for the third time back in the tail fuse. What made it difficult was they were having a sort of cluster bombs–– they weren’t large bombs. It might have been 250 pounds or not over 500 pounds and they had the tail fins, and they’re sharp and you have to get your hand down and around. You know, you just say, “I’ve got to do this. There’s no substitution for failure. You gotta do it.” I can’t call up the pilot and say, “Hey, I can’t do this.” You would never think of doing that. It was done and I went back and sat down and at that moment I would have given up a week’s, or better yet, a month’s pay for a pair of three dollar Sears pliers to straighten those things up. We proceeded to turn around and come back to base, and the worst part about it is we didn’t get any mission credit for all that. We just had another nice long airplane ride. (19:33). Interviewer: “Could you tell me about a couple of your most memorable experiences of your missions flown over Europe?” Well the one I just described was the main one. There never were any real scary situations. We did lose an engine over a target. We came back on three engines–– I think that was more due to engine malfunction than through enemy action–– and we had to pull out and fly alongside the bomber stream. On our way back it was uneventful. The fighters came over and let us know that they were watching us and taking care of us. Then another time we had a bomb rack for some cluster bombs hit our wing and it was embedded in the wing, so it caused a little drag but didn’t, fortunately, hit an engine so we were alright there. We didn’t have to fall out of the formation there. Looking at the other airplanes and seeing the flak that someone had to go through–– we really were fortunate. The anti-aircraft guns couldn’t fire at everybody, so they’d either pick your group or the group behind you [or] the group ahead of you. The same is true of fighter interceptions. We’d get an alert, the pilots would say, “Okay. Gunners be on alert, the group ahead of us is experiencing fighter attacks.” We’d get all ready and there wouldn’t be any–– they’d hit the group behind us. There were a lot of groups or planes that weren’t so fortunate. I remember seeing the battery of four anti-aircraft guns tracking a B-17 group, I believe it was, about maybe half to three-quarters of a mile flying alongside of us. The last plane in the formation–– there’s this burst of four, fire would be a little closer each time and then we turned for our initial point to make our bomb run, so I never did learn to see what happened–– it didn’t look good because there was the flak which was very heavy. It was more of a danger than fighters were at that time because of the Luftwaffe was beaten except for the Me-262 attacks. A crew member and a bunk member–– not a member of our crew, but another gunner–– he did get �credit for shooting one down that flew in his formation. I wasn’t on that mission but it was one or two days before or after mine. (23:06). Interviewer: “Was there something special you did for good luck?” No. I really don’t believe in those things, but we always went to mass for the Chaplin. It didn’t make any difference to me whether it was Catholic or Protestant. We went and you just tried to be alert and do the best you can. I don’t think luck has something to do with after the event, but in getting ready for it luck plays no part of it. Interviewer: “Were you awarded any medals or citations and if so, how did you get them?” My service time was pretty uneventful. Like many others we got the Air Medal and that was the extent of it. We had it very easy compared to the men who went over in 43 and 42. They were writing the book because they went along there. Our group went over in 40 through 43 and had one of the best safety records of any group. That was partly due to the tight formations we flew and as a tribute to that our group was chosen to lead the Eighth Air Force on D-Day because of bombing accuracy and known for our on-time performances which means that we were formed and ready to go with the proper time and reached the rendezvous point at the proper time. It’s a tribute to the crews, at that time, that we did that. (25:26). Interviewer: “During downtime how often did you or were you able to stay in touch with your family?” Five letters, that was all. Fortunately, I didn’t have any girlfriends and I wasn’t married, and I wasn’t even close to being married, so I didn’t have any girl problems about not hearing from them or any “Dear John” letters. I was just a young boy having a great adventure and I can talk about it and I’m proud of the service–– a lot of it–– and of course it is because I was not hurt. I didn’t suffer, I know some other people did. They don’t want to talk about it and I understand that, but it was a significant part of my life that I remember. I didn’t win the war by any stretch of imagination but–– Interviewer: “What did you think of officers or the fellow soldiers that you served with?” I’d say the Air Force officers were good. One part about it, they were highly trained and therefore well educated and did their jobs well. Not everybody in the crew was a bosom pal of mine. Seems like we were all from different states, but the pilot and I got along very well. We had a relationship after the war until he passed on. One interesting factor about that [is] his grandson never knew his grandfather, so he wanted to learn more about what his grandfather did in the war and he was smart enough to figure out how to do that. He went ahead and on an �internet site, got an email address, and this is luck. He went ahead and emailed this individual over there and wanted to know, “Do you know Alan Senior? He was with Bob Drake’s crew.” And he–– out of all the people he could have had to see his email, was an English man who I’d met in England and he and his wife had come over and visited our house here. He wrote back and he said, “Of course I know Alan Senior. Here’s his address, his telephone number,” and that young man–– Michael Anthony–– I’m his surrogate grandfather. I just recently came back from attending his wedding at Jekyll Island, Georgia and he and the family just treated Joyce and myself like family. He is a wonderful young man, just wonderful. He’s a former Eagle Scout, graduated from Valdosta College in Georgia. The whole family is, you know, they wanted me to tell them about their father. There’s a son and two daughters, so at Jekyll Island–– I’ve previously sent them quite a few pictures–– but it just made me feel good that I could help them connect. (29:36). Interviewer: “How would you perceive the American attitude towards the local civilian population?” In England it was just wonderful. The local people were somewhat standoffish because they’re more conservative than we are, but after a while they liked us. We shared some of our rations with them–– some good times with them. If I’ve got time I’d like to just tell you a story, and it’s another coincidence. When I was in about the tenth grade, the English teacher said we needed to get pen pals. I got a pen pal from a girl from England. So, we corresponded back and forth and I told her that with the war, I might come over to England, you know. I might be over there in the Air Force and the way it came about, I did–– I went to meet her. She lived in Todmorden which is up near Manchester in the industrial section. Her name was Florence Britain, if you can believe that, and we just had a wonderful weekend. I took one of my crew members–– the other waist gunner–– with me and I had somehow gotten a box of Whitman’s chocolate, some lipsticks, and some stockings and took them up there and met Florence and her mother and her father and sister. We had a candlelight dinner because of the blackout and Mrs. Britain the next morning–– we stayed in a pub–– so after breakfast she came by and picked us up and walked us down to the market holding my arm. She introduced us and she said, “This is Florence’s friend from America, Alan.” It was just a wonderful experience. Who would have ever thought that that would have happened, you know. That’s like the lottery odds are now. But, that was another nice experience that I had and I corresponded with them when I got back to the States and then we’d started drifting apart. (32:17). Interviewer: “In general, with your interactions with other British civilians, how did you perceive their attitude towards you and your crewmates?” There was some rivalry there and it was partly our fault. We had, you know, the old expression. We were overpaid, over sexed, over there, that was part of it. A lot of it probably was accidental, �I don’t think any of us tried to do that. I know my friends didn’t. On one of our one or two or three day passes we had in London, you’d go into a pub and there’d always be somebody there wanting to challenge you somewhat. In fact, I got in a taxi–– another crew member and myself–– and there were two Americans in there and they got after us. They said, “You damn guys bombed us,” and named some city and I said, “Well, it’s really hard to tell at 20,000 feet who’s down there and your leaders–– your officers–– should have been in touch with the Allies to tell them ‘Don’t bomb here.’ You folks did a great job, you moved so fast, and we had our orders. We dropped the bombs there as ordered.” Needless to say we were dying to get out of that taxi. I don’t think they really bought my story very well but that’s understandable as well. (34:07). Interviewer: “In addition to some of the stories you’ve told us, could you describe any more memorable stories of events in England during the war?” No. I think that covers it. We were all very happy, of course, when the war ended and then we started to think about going back to the States to be trained as B-29 crewmen to go to the Pacific. Which–– you know–– that’s the way the war is. As we went from–– we got a three day furlough then we reported to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for reassignment. While we were there, of course, they dropped the two atomic bombs, the war ended, and we were dispersed all over the United States. I went to Marshfield, California and had some little job. I was a part of another group–– we safety wired a part on a B-29 engine, you know. It was just a make-work type of thing. Then the point system came along and I argued a little bit and they agreed that I had enough points to get out, so I got out in December. I remember walking–– I had my barracks bag and headed down towards the train station–– and I walked past a restaurant and they were playing “I’ll Be Home for Christmas” and sure enough, I was. (35:49). Interviewer: “Do you recall where you were when–– exactly where you were–– when the war ended?” Do you mean when the bombs were dropped or–– Interviewer: “Yes. Or both if you recall.” [When] the bombs were dropped, I was in Sioux Falls, South Dakota waiting for reassignment. That’s when the war ended but the surrender documents were not assigned until September, I believe. Interviewer: “How about V-E Day?” An interesting sidelight to that–– the war ended on, I think, May 8. May 9 we were allowed to make a tourist flight, I guess you would say, to Germany in some of the bombed out cities at �maybe 1,000 feet. We flew down the Rhine River and I could look out my waist window and I didn’t see any sky, I just saw the bank of the Rhine River–– we were that low. It was so interesting, I just wish I’d had a video camera or could’ve taken some pictures because there’s so much you’re seeing that you can assimilate at all, but it was wonderful. We saw planes that had been forced landed, we saw where there had been tracks of big tank fights, trenches. The devastation of the German cities was terrible, just terrible. (37:34). Interviewer: “Did you work or go back to school after the war?” I came back and started immediately to go to school and everybody had to have a part-time job doing something. I did that, went to school three days a week, and then I got married somewhere along the line, and got my degree–– I’m trying to think of the year. It was probably 1950. Interviewer: “Did you receive the benefits from the GI Bill and go out to school?” Yes, and that was a great benefit. I think also for our country because it raised the educational level of the average man/woman in the street several notches over what it would’ve been. I was the first part of my family to go to college and graduate. My dad went to the ninth grade, my mother finished high school and was a rural teacher for one semester I think. I think that was one of the great things that happened, the GI Bill. (39:05). Interviewer: “Did your participation in the war contribute to your making this decision beyond the GI Bill? Did it motivate you to want to go back to school in any way?” Oh, yes. [When] I was in high school I had been a very poor student and I wanted an opportunity to do better. I realized that I needed it to go on and do all these grandiose things that 20/21-yearold people have. Interviewer: “What did you go on to do as a career, after the war?” Well, with a degree in Psychology–– which was a waste of time–– I went into the property casualty insurance business and stayed in it all of my adult life. Interviewer: “Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or the Military in general?” Well it would have too. If you had any sensibilities at all, it gives me an appreciation for the people who are in the Military–– even today, particularly today. Nothing was more saddening to me than what the Vietnam boys went through. The American people should be ashamed of themselves for what they did to those veterans. �Interviewer: “What are the experiences that stand out after all this time, that you’re most proud of?” (40:56). My perseverance to get into the Army–– the Air Force. If you want something badly enough and [you] make a commitment, it can happen. Although I didn’t go on to be the pilot that I wanted to be, I did the next best thing [which] is being a crew member. So I made my donation or participation. I think that, to me, is personally what I am proud of. That I did my job the best I could. Interviewer: “Is there anything you’d like to add that we have not covered in this interview?” I think we’ve covered quite a lot. It’s just that’s the most significant part of my life. I’m proud of what I did, I’m not bragging about it, but I’m proud that I opted to do what I had to do. (42:57). Interviewer: “We’ll conclude this interview, Alan. I’d just like to state, before we kill the camera, that Ryan and I would like to thank you for taking the time for the interview and we appreciate everything you’ve done in this country and because you were actually in World War II, we enjoy the freedoms from the fruits of your labor. Thank you very much sir.” You’re welcome. I think at my age I realized that and how times have changed so much, and that our great country is not being–– its virtues are not being taught, explained, expounded and it just saddens me to think how this country is being destroyed from within. Weakened. Interviewer: “You know, what amazes me is [that] I can only pretend to know what life was like in 1943 because I wasn’t there, but I know it was a lot different from what I’ve read and heard. I think about you being a young man back in 1943 and being thrust into this great conflict, and going through all the things you went through and everything you experienced. One thing that I’m always shocked at is how were you guys able to settle back into civilian life after experiencing all that? I mean, you were flying in B-24s across Europe in part of the strategic Air Force. How? It always amazed me that how could you come back and settle in after such–– having to participate in something like that? Was it difficult for you or did you just take right to it?” (44:54). I never even thought about it. You just did it. I think growing up in the 40s was probably the greatest experience that anybody could have. Life in the 40s, in a small town, I am so thankful for that. We had one high school, a little town, and friendships. The friendships we keep today. We’re having our 60th high school [reunion], if you believe that. 60th high school reunion. I �can’t believe I’m that old until I look in the mirror every morning. But it’s–– I’m not much at conventions/reunions and all that. We never had a high school reunion till 1993 which would be 50 years. So I agonized about that, over going. I went and did you know that some of the people that were my friends–– because we had a small school–– after 15/20 minutes it was like I never went away. One of the folks came up and he said, “You know, watching you and Hank talk over there, it’s like you had never been away.” And I hadn’t seen him for 50 years. But those values–– and you know, that’s multiplied around the United States I’m sure–– but the things we did in the fun. In fact, I’m going to–– in the last week of March–– I’ve got a condo that we’ve rented in Hilton Head, South Carolina and three couples are going to be there. (47:10). Interviewer: “That’s great.” One was in the Army, one was in the Navy, and the other one is my cousin. He wasn’t in anything. He was in the service but he didn’t get any combat or anything. It was just a great time in the 40s. In fact, I’ve been asked to work-up a program for the museum. Fort Bend County Museum on life in the 40s. I’ve been a little hesitant to do all that. I’ve got the research done, now I just have to write it. One of the things that we did participate in as a member of the Confederate Air Force [was] Texas Southern University here had an aviation program for four years, I believe, and we were asked to provide speakers and I spoke on the development of air power from World War I through World War II. That was interesting. I had to do some research on that myself and it’s usually the case that the speaker learns more than the students do from listening. I did that until the program was–– they lost their funding for it. But, that was good and some of those young people could care less but one or two of them, I think, were really interested, which is about average. I try to teach my son about the importance of being responsible for your own behavior and your decisions. You make a bad decision, you work like hell to correct it or learn from it. His son–– I’ve got videos of the war and books. I said, “When Corey gets to the age of being a junior in high school, I want you to play these things and talk it over with him because he’s not going to get it in the school books.” He’ll think World War II might be a paragraph like it is now. (49:32). Interviewer: “That’s true. It’s interesting you mentioned that. One of the primary motivating factors for me to get involved and try to record and archive living history, you know, was the birth of my two sons and hoping that at least one of them will appreciate history and the lessons we must learn from it–– as much as I do. I was thinking the same thing that you were thinking. It’s like, what can I show them? What resources can I direct them towards? I’m hoping that someday if he really wants to learn the real deal, as they say, he can access information like this at the Library of Congress and get a more meaningful picture of the real people who participated in World War II and in other foreign wars. �Don’t overlook the fact that there are some good videos that he can look at, and some good books that will direct the thinking. I must have 200 books out there and I told my son, “If you ever place any of those in the garage sale for 25 or 50 cents, I’m going to come back and slap the hell out of you.” Interviewer: “You’re going to haunt him.” (50:53). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeniorA2363V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Senior, Alan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-02 Title A name given to the resource Senior, Alan (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Alan Senior was born May 19, 1925 and grew up in a small town outside of Buffalo, New York. Senior was just a junior in high school when the bomb was dropped at Pearl Harbor, leading to questions about what was going to happen to him as he approached military age. Around the time Senior turned 18, he enlisted in the Voluntary Induction Program due to his dreams of becoming a flyer, therefore, joining the Air Cadets to guarantee his spot with the Air Force. Senior attended basic training in Greensboro, North Carolina where he didn’t quite make it through the Air Cadets program. Instead, Senior became an aerial gunner. This is when Senior went down to Laredo, Texas for gunnery school. Finally, after months of training Senior and his crew headed overseas to England where they were stationed. During their time in England, Senior and his crew were only able to fly ten missions before the war ended. Due to his time with the Air Force, Senior received the Air Medal and his crew was recognized for their particularly strong safety record. After being sent home from England, Senior went to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for reassignment. However, this is when the final bombs were dropped and the war thus “ended.” Eventually, after Senior was discharged from the service he went back to school and pursued a degree in Psychology. He then worked in the property casualty insurance business and stayed there for his entire adult life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lupo, Tony (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6830d7f494dc9a00939e0a9358c8765.mp4 cdae61877bfeb92cee8b4a6640af6eb5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75181e864878d99a26c82d9f04bdf50d.pdf 3be3bafc7cb839c72c57d00b4f2f66f8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Cold War Interviewee’s Name: David Scherer Length of Interview: 2:42:08 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Sam Noonan Interviewer: “We’re talking today with David Scherer of Allendale, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born November 27th, 1960, in Newburgh, Indiana. Small little farming community next to the Ohio River. We’re just outside of Evansville, Indiana, and— Interviewer: “What was your family doing for a living then?” My dad was a self-contractor plus [he] had a farm. My mother was a nurse for St. Mary’s Hospital in Evansville. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. And as you’re growing up, when you’re a kid the Vietnam war is going on, did you pay any attention to that or was that not really on your radar screen?” When we used to eat supper, TV would be on, and the news coverage on television, I remember them doing, showing the body counts. How many wounded for a day, how many killed in action, how many enemy… was killed. You’d see them chopperin’ the wounded off by helicopter, [there would] be a general or a captain talking about that day’s battle. Same time, eating supper. And my dad wouldn’t say much because my dad was a World War II veteran, Seabees. So of course, being young, [I thought] ‘Ooh, military! Something military on the TV!’ Had a friend, his son was in Vietnam. And he didn’t talk about it very much, I never knew what happened to his son growing up, nothing was said so that family moved out, never saw them again, and – but still, to talk of Vietnam… the protesting on TV, I remember watching them burn their draft cards. I was in my teens, very early – thirteen, fourteen – and then once the end of Vietnam, you know, just kind of went away. Except for what you saw on TV about the veterans, the veterans that were upset – veterans that, they’ve had it with America, they’re gonna move out west, out in the mountains, get lost. That was it. And my dad did belong to [the] American Legion, what veterans there were, Vietnam veterans, they stayed to themselves. To me they were young guys, and the World War II veterans, I’d still remember my dad and his friends, couldn’t understand why these guys… I remember the word ‘selfish’ was being used. The World War II veterans said it. And I could understand… and I do remember these guys, when they did �get drunk they were hostile. Especially toward the World War II veterans. But then high school rolled around, Vietnam wasn’t talked [about] in history, still everything in history was World War II – very little was talked about Vietnam. Graduated high school in 1979, and still there was no talk about Vietnam at that period, if you were a Vietnam soldier - they kept very quiet. And then I do remember the news talking about the [casualties], and then Agent Orange. That was starting to become a big thing in the late ‘70’s. (4:40) Interviewer: “Now so what did you do after you graduated high school?” Worked on a farm. Bunch of us guys used to hang around, you know, being a small town, go to the river, frog around there, had our cars, had our pickup trucks. Farming was starting to become very bad, my dad’s business wasn’t doing very good, and back home it was either working – either at a coal mine or farming, or the military. 1980 rolled around and… actually the reason – if my wife was here she would tell you exactly why I joined the military, besides the work. I was dating a girl and things weren’t working out very well between her and I, and I got this thing in my head, ‘Join the army! Maybe she’ll come and stop you.’ Well the day came to get on the bus, she didn’t show up at the bus station. By then I’d already raised my right hand, I was sworn in. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you – at the time you enlisted were there a lot of guys from your community who were going in or did you just walk into a recruiting office and you’re the only one there or…” I was the only one there, cause by then everybody was either [in] college or still working on the farms. The recruiter said, ‘Not too many people from your area…’ Cause everybody was still talking college. (6:20) Interviewer: “Okay, now when you enlist were you given options for what kinds of training you could take or did you have to – did that all just depend on aptitude tests?” Aptitude tests. And everything turned out mechanical. Interviewer: “Alright. Now did you know that before you went off to boot camp or did you take a lot of these tests at boot camp when you got there?” I knew that before I went to basic. Interviewer: “Okay. So where did you do basic?” Fort Sill, Oklahoma. �Interviewer: “Alright, and describe that place, what did it look like at the time?” When I got off the bus at the reception center, everything was nice, clean, tidy, drill instructor got on the bus, course they’re yelling and they’re screaming and I’m thinking, ‘What did I do?’ And they rushed us through, ran us through the mess hall real quick, and the mess hall was huge, food was fantastic, I’m like, ‘This is pretty cool.’ Once we got our uniforms and… it was almost like that one scene [in] Stripes you know, getting the uniform, they’re fitting you, and this and that. Then they got us in the barracks, there’s one barracks. And… I arrived at Fort Sill July 2nd, by the time I got to the permanent barracks it was July 4th. Open-bay barracks, never saw nothing like this before. There was bunk beds, we’re all… bald-headed bunch of guys in our underwear and t-shirts trying to fill each other out, drill instructor said, ‘Time to go to bed.’ Fourth of July, we’re figuring okay, we’ll get to see fireworks - no. It was hot in Oklahoma, and you’re laying in bed, you’re sweating, and you hear the fireworks, they did have fans and by then we were already tired from the hustling around, getting everything together. So laying in your bed, sweating, hearing the fireworks thinking, ‘What did I do wrong?’ Everybody else was thinking the same thing too. Well, made it through the night, 5:00 the following morning, drill instructor’s throwing trash cans down the hallway. That was an experience, hearing trash cans, [being] called every name that you can think of that they could call you. We’re standing up, some guy’s still laying in bed and they’re flipping the mattresses off the bunk bed. So we’re getting… get dressed, showered, shaved, PT and all this. We still had the green uniforms, that’s before the fatigues. So we wore white tee shirts. And so then basic [started]. And drill instructor – both my drill instructors were Vietnam vets, I mean I was impressed with their shoulder patches, cause both of them [were] 7th Cavalry. That’s the big patch with a horse, and one was a white drill instructor, the other one was Puerto Rican, Sergeant Vega. Short. Man, the looks that these guys could give you… stop your heart. And they laid it out to us, being mom, dad, preacher, the whole…. But they’re also here to get you through basic training. Well they were still old school, how they were trained. They had no problems of putting you into place by.. I want to say a little more firmer grab, but you’re still called every name [in] the book. So they taught us the marching, the drills. We’re like, ‘okay, marching, drills.’ Then we went out in the fields. And taught us weapons, everything. The grenade throwing, how [to] set up your fire points and all this, and I was thinking, ‘well I’m [going to be] in maintenance, why do I need to know all this?’ No, no, no, no, this is it. But in the process I felt comfortable with my drill instructors. My father was a depression child, and plus a World War II veteran. Navy. There’s only one way, the right way. His way, the Navy way. You didn’t moan, groan, complain, and you took a butt chewing. Just, I mean, you took – well it was a basic drill instructor sitting there screaming [at] you, I found myself finally comfortable. [I thought], ‘Dad! When’d you turn into a Puerto Rican?’ I mean, I was comfortable though. And turned out the other guys who had fathers that were in the military, World War II, depression child, they’re hardcore. They didn’t know nonsense. (12:02) Interviewer: “So about how long did it take you to kind of come to that realization?” �I probably have to say within the third week. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. So on some level at least, did you understand what they were doing or were you just in a comfort zone at this point – did you know why they were doing this?” Yes. Cause talk to other veterans, World War II veterans, they’re more or less telling you how it was. If you didn’t pay attention to your training, you could lose your life. And my father, when he was in the Navy he was also a Seabee, so they were doing construction. Do it right the first time. And that’s how it was in basic, do it right. Interviewer: “And you’ve done farm work and stuff so you could probably handle the physical side of It pretty well?” Plus playing in high school football. I’m still in pretty good shape, compared to now, but yes – the running, the physical training part? It was easy. Interviewer: “Alright. So how long was the basic?” Six weeks. Interviewer: “Okay. And then what do you do after those six weeks?” Then we graduated. Then you gotta wait for orders to go to another school, your AIT – Advanced Individual Training. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and what was yours?” Mine? I was a forty-one Charlie. Considered fire control repair. When you look in your sight, you had to make sure what you’re looking at, your barrel of the armored vehicle was looking at the same thing. There was a lot of optics and mechanical gears involved. Interviewer: “Did you do this at Fort Sill or did you go somewhere else?” Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland. Interviewer: “And how was being there different from being at Fort Sill?” It was a different animal because we didn’t have drill instructors there, we had platoon sergeants. We still had the marching, but they marched us to school – where our barracks were. And where the school was, I’d say a good five, six blocks. And these were old barracks that we stayed in, but we still you know, had to keep our things extremely clean, did inspections left and right, but still being marched to school. Look forward to the weekends, we had weekends off, it was like ‘wow!’ And got to explore Baltimore, we were allowed to leave post. But Monday �morning, marching back to that school. And at school… was at first very basic, our instructors, they had the same M.O. as you, and so that’s when we started working on optics and the mechanical gears – on tanks and artillery pieces. From the most simplest things to binoculars. Then at the most complicated thing, a ballistic computer which belonged in an M60 tank. And everybody was excited, ballistic computers – this was still 1980. You know, inside a tank was a white box, cast aluminum with a lid. Took off the screws, had [a] couple handles on the outside, two mechanisms coming on the top. Popped the screw on this thing, excited – a computer! Looked in it, it’s ran by a bicycle chain. (laughter) I’m telling you, it’s true. Then it had a cam system and what the gunner would do, he’d turn a knob for what round they were shooting and what distance. Well, turn all this with the … and electric motor and the bicycle chain would turn the cams, which elevator to press the gun to. But still, the shock of seeing a bicycle chain in a ballistic computer. (16:30) Interviewer: “Now was it a computer only [in the] sense of being a machine that calculated things, as opposed to you know, having all the integrated circuits and all—” Circuit cards and everything, yeah. But that was the technology for the M60 tank from 1960 ‘til they started modifying the tank to an A1, A2, and the fire control systems got a little more complicated but not by much. And… but everything was still being dealt with optics. Nice, clean environment, no grease, no dirt. Interviewer: “Okay, now how much – was there a lot of math involved with what you were doing?” There was quite a bit of math involved, especially when it came to the mechanized gears – cause you had to make sure you had everything tolerated, count it just right, how many revolutions, broke down by… what it required for. There was also a lot of electricity involved too, so you had [an] oscilloscope, multimeter, rheostats, and all this that we were replacing. Interviewer: “Okay. So then you’re … electronics at the same time?” Mhm. Interviewer: “Now was there enough math that you got to use a calculator? I mean the handheld calculator existed by then, but was that part of what you used at that point?” That’s what we used, or if not we did the old math. Wrote our thing down inside the turret with a pencil. Interviewer: “But no slide rule?” No slide rule no. �Interviewer: “Yeah, they stopped teaching us that. Okay, alright. And how long was that training session?” That was a year. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. So daily life was basically just get up in the morning, march off to breakfast, go to school—” School, did our P.T. and then typical military life you know, barracks and then we started watching the numbers of the guys that weren’t around no more, cause we were also having testing quite a bit. And what the instructors used to love to do, as soon as you work on something, they would come in later on, take screws out, take this out – well you’re so confident that you worked on the piece earlier, you knew it was gonna be fine. Well all of the sudden it’s not working. Why is it not working? So you’re freaking out but you didn’t think about them sabotaging the part. You’re panicking, and can’t find out what’s wrong, so they might take a unhooked wire that you knew was hooked earlier, so they kept you on your feet like that. Then they started introducing Soviet stuff that was captured. We couldn’t believe how basic this Soviet equipment was, their sights compared to our sights. Interviewer: “I did once interview somebody who was serving in Germany in the ‘70s and they got to see inside of a T-72 tank, and he said a lot of it was of wood.” Their stuff was very crude compared to our stuff. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you would go into town into Baltimore or whatever, I mean you’d be going in there and you’d have short hair and so forth, would people know you are military to look at you, or…” (19:58) Cause long hair was still popular… you would stick out like a sore thumb. Interviewer: “How did people treat soldiers at that point?” We didn’t brag that much about – I mean they knew we were soldiers, only time… when you went back home on leave, somebody would- ‘Hey, you’re in the Army’ [and they would buy you a drink.] Interviewer: “So you weren’t getting any kind of old Vietnam backlash, or.. I suppose being [in] Southern Indiana you wouldn’t hit a whole lot of that anyway, but there were some areas where if you were in the military people might look down on you or—” �I got that at Chicago O’Hare Airport, cause I was in uniform. And I had a woman, wanted to know, ‘are we still trained on killing babies?’ And I looked at her and I just walked away. Then a couple of us went into a bar at O’Hare, and we were just minding our own business. Couple of guys told us about Vietnam and they told us about their experience walking through that airport and – early ‘70s, and they’re like, ‘You shouldn’t be walking through here in uniform.’ And you know, they told us about their experiences. Yelled at, screamed at. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so there’s a little bit of that left over but clearly not like it was-” No, nothing like what it was. Interviewer: “Okay. So now you kind of, you get to the end of this year’s training, now how long had you enlisted for? What was the length of enlistment?” First time, four years. Interviewer: “Okay. And so you’re basically a little over a year into it at this point, once you complete that training what do they do with you?” It was the waiting game, just like being in college. When you took your final exams and it’s posted on the board. There was orders posted on a board, and when I enlisted, first thing the recruiter says, ‘Where you want to be stationed at?’ And I said Fort Knox and Fort Campbell, or Hawaii. Okay, that’s all on the paperwork. So we ran up to this bulletin board, saw orders. You know how excited … when you’re in college, ‘I passed!’ All of the sudden I hear guys, ‘Germany! Germany! Korea! Aw, I got Fort Hood, Fort Bliss, Fort Lewis,’ and I’m looking, looking, looking, ‘Scherer!’ Germany. My recruiter said, ‘I will get you Fort Knox, or Fort Campbell. For sure Hawaii.’ I’m still looking. Interviewer: “Now Fort Knox and Fort Campbell, why did you prefer those at the time?” They were 150 miles away from my home. Interviewer: “Yup, close to home.” Close to home. Interviewer: “If you’re gonna go anywhere else, go to Hawaii.” Hawaii. (23:08) Interviewer: “So you get Germany.” �I got Germany. Interviewer: “Alright, and now what, if anything do you do to prepare to go over?” Got a thirty-day leave and [went] back home, hung around my friends, you know, your typical.. like when you came home from college. Hang around your friends and you know, try to pick up some stuff, and the thirty days was great until probably the last week of that. And I still remember to the day, all of the sudden it’s time to go. And I had to fly out the local airport, then fly into JFK. And [I] still had never been to a big city, that big of a city. So got in JFK, big ‘ol wide-eyed, saw a bunch of other soldiers, we had a station area we had to stay at. Was going overseas. And just looking at the people at JFK and still In dress greens and excited, it was time for us to board. Eight hour flight. But there’s no preparation to get ready to go. Interviewer: “So they’re not teaching you anything about life in Germany or anything else like that?” Knew nothing about Germany. To tell you how naïve I was, when we landed at Frankfurt I was still expecting to see the Hansel and Gretel style homes. That’s how naïve I was! Still seeing German girls in pigtails and got in Frankfurt and… McDonalds. ‘Where’d these big buildings come from?’ Where’s the little Hansel and Gretel style homes, and all this? We had a reassignment area we had to go through, where a unit came [to] pick you up. Spent a day there, and then I’m noticing everybody’s speaking German. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks, my dad and family spoke German. One day my [dad] said, ‘You might want to learn how to speak German.’ Psh! He was right. And my unit came, picked me up. Interviewer: “And what unit was that?” The 19th Maintenance Support Battalion. Interviewer: “Okay. Alright, they come and get you and now what happens?” They came, got me, and you know the whole ABCs, welcome to Germany, we’re going down the Autobahn and heading toward the barracks, and I was shocked on how these cars were driving. We had a military jeep, and just seeing all these cars – how fast! Still, where’s the bricklined roads, cobblestone streets and all this. All of sudden I saw a sign, ‘Welcome to Hanau, Germany.’ And so I get to my company, 19th Maintenance, old World War II German barracks. So I got the introduction, had a process and still checking out the barracks, still had marble floors. But you go down the hallway and it had gun racks in the walls. And homesickness [was] kicking in by then, I wanted to go home, and… nope, stuck there. Was introduced to everybody, my platoon sergeant and my squad leader – both of them Vietnam vets. ‘Welcome to Germany, you’ll have fun, you’ll have a blast.’ Well in the process while we were talking, big … in their head. ‘We’re gonna have fun, we’re gonna have a blast.’ (27:21) �Interviewer: “Alright, so now what do they do to kind of orient you or get you up to speed when you join the unit?” Well so got into the unit, signed in, then Frank …, he was in the squad I was assigned to, so it’s his job to get me everything I needed, from all the equipment and make sure all the paperwork’s signed in, showed me where the PX was on post and all the places that I needed to go. Now the post still had the cobblestone streets, and the barracks, like I said they were German barracks. But our motorpool was about five blocks away, and Frank told me about the history of Hanau. The city of Hanau, during World War II, the city was sacrificed – the lights were left on during the bombing, during WWII, to save Frankfurt. Nighttime bombing. So we got the history of Hanau, then the history of [the] 19th Maintenance Battalion. And we were the highest maintenance battalion you could go to next to the civilians. And the 19th Maintenance Battalion had a very proud history on turnaround for maintenance, that goes from wheeled vehicles to track vehicles, weapons, of course armor. Interviewer: “Now were you supporting units within an Army corps or a whole army or?” Army corps. We – they had to bring their stuff to us, what they couldn’t fix. We had several armor battalions we supported, we… their maintenance people brought everything to us, if we couldn’t fix it then we had to send it to Mannheim, that’s where the civilians were – to repair. But we were the last stop for them. And we saw some tore up things. Broken optics, how can you break this? And it’s stuff you never thought of, but we’re still in this nice, clean environment. And stayed busy, extremely busy. Interviewer: “And do they ever – do you go out and do field exercises or have other duties besides just the maintenance work?” (30:05) When the armor rode to the field, we rode. And when there was alerts called, then we went to our rally point out in the field. But we also did a lot of training out there too. You know, setting up… the general area which we were assigned to, if something would’ve happened, we did a lot of time in Freiberg, Germany. And my platoon sergeant asked a bunch of us, ‘You guys ever seen Roman ruins?’ ‘No!’ ‘Ever been to Rome?’ ‘No, never been to Rome.’ Well we’re in a field there, and he said, ‘You guys want to see Roman ruins?’ I thought he was yanking our chain, all of the sudden there’s these columns laying on the ground, chiseled columns. It was from when the Romans were there. Indiana, thinking… Romans? Shows you how much I paid attention, how much Romans conquered the world. There were these beautiful columns laying there, and we were eating our meal there, but it was just – I just couldn’t believe it – how far history went. And… but we did a lot of training out there, sloshing through the mud. And then still working on the stuff that they brought to us, we worked out a big large truck, and … got dirty, muddy, and all of this. Lot of practicing on NBC – chemical warfare, and of course nuclear warfare. That was drilled to us. And constantly drilled, that was our death threat from [the] Soviets. Warsaw Pact. �They had, we were taught if they do invade it’s going to be chemical warfare – they doubted that they were going to nuke us. ThenInterviewer: “So for chemical warfare, I mean what – was there protective measures you would take or?” We had chemical uniforms. And they had us – I mean, drilled on how to put on a chemical uniform, how fast can you put on these chemical uniforms. And your mask. And to the point, I mean you were timed, there we learned all the signals. Then they wanted you comfortable in these things, walk around with them in a day, you couldn’t pull your mask off. The cigarette smokers were going through hell. I mean you’re doing everything possible. And they didn’t give us a break, eat chow or smokes, but then they came up with a brilliant idea – let’s play baseball in these things. Cause they wanted you to get used to them, and they were charcoal activated – look inside a chemical suit, it’s all black. Then we were still wearing white t-shirts, so we played baseball, we played volleyball, and everybody’s sucking wind left and right, time to take our tops off and so what was the nice white t-shirt? [It] was black. We had to wear rubber gloves, your hands are pruned, but this, they kept drilling in our heads over time after time and time, that when an alert would come, how fast can you get your gear together, get it to the truck, have your weapon ready? This went on and on and there were sometimes where we’d get to the trucks, we’re moving out. And probably about [the] third month I was there I was on my.. probably fourth alert. And they’d call these things at one o’clock in the morning, never during the daytime but one o’clock in the morning. It was a race, get everything together that you were issued. Pile in the back of a deuce and a half, off we went. And then you knew we were going to go for a longer distance when they put convoy numbers on the trucks. (34:48) Then I became a driver, and had a convoy number on my truck. First time driving on the autobahn, so geeked up. Well [we] had a long drive, we ended up in Grafenwoehr, ‘where is Grafenwoehr?’ And got there, set up, and same thing all over again, chemical, train, train, nuclear, they – somebody walked around with a flash on a camera, ‘See the flash? That’s nuclear!’ Hit the ground. Put your butt toward the flash, cover your head. And so that went on, ran around [in] MOPP suits. Train with your weapon, still do your job – they’re still bringing parts to you. ‘Get it out, get it out,’ cause by then the tankers and artillery battalions are at the ranges – they have to qualify. They wouldn’t need their stuff so you’re getting everything out, still make sure your job [is being done.] Cause one of the things you were [threatened with] was you screw it up, that round falls short, kills somebody, your name’s all over that paperwork. And working on optics was – you know, no more … getting an optic cleaned, set just right. Looking through the thing there’s a smudge, ‘where did that smudge come from? Where did a piece of dust come from?’ And of course with being a mechanized gear it had to – everything was set. And still, had to be put out one hundred percent. And so this went on for a while, and still, chemical, chemical, chemical, and then one night things changed. That’s when the Soviets shot down that Korean airliner. And we were put on an alert. None of us knew nothing about the Korean airliner. But that gotta [have] happened probably two days before we had our alert. So we’re going to the �motorpool, all of the sudden we’re going a different direction than our usual where we would. ‘Where we going?’ ‘Fulda.’ ‘Where’s Fulda?’ ‘Fulda gap.’ That’s where the estimate the East German army and the Russian army comin’ through. ‘Nawww.’ ‘Yeah.’ By the time we got there we were the fourth battalion, they already had the armor ready to go. So they told us where we were going, we set up. And you look where we’re setting up, you saw the gap. We had our M60 machine guns and our fifties ready. And ‘you’re telling me we’re going to war?’ ‘No we’re not.’ ‘Yeah, we’re going to war.’ And… that was the first time I – while I was there, [that] it was scary. I was scared. And we were out there for three days. And my old platoon sergeant that was a Vietnam vet came up to us, he goes, ‘If we get overran, if I’m around I’m gonna make sure to shoot you guys,’ cause he said ‘the communists get a hold of you guys,’ cause he’s remember, from Vietnam, ‘it’s gonna be ugly.’ I don’t wanna be shot! But we were ready. Then, find out how big of a cluster it was, these other battalions run into their point. Then there was accidents left and right, left and right. And… but it never happened. We packed up, went back to where we came from, unloaded, broke out the beer. Beer was the biggest band-aid, and there was a lot of beer, there was a lot of drinking on your down time. (39:17) Interviewer: “Alright, now would you go off base or just stay on base?” Off base, local guest houses. Interviewer: “And how did the local Germans deal with the American soldiers?” I was hoping you would ask me this. It was like [an] age divide. The older Germans, that I would say was our parents’ ages when we were over there, they remembered American GIs, how well the American GIs treated ‘em. They said … they were starving for food, GIs always had food. [They] would give them the rations, they’re … and treated ‘em, even though they were Germans they would treat ‘em fantastically. They had nothing but praises [for] the American GIs. And it was the German… was our parents ages that we were what, say teenagers and younger. Then the older Germans would ask us - you know, treat us like we were kings. We had a rally point, was out in the boonies where we had – with our two trucks – it was at a farm, German farm. To me a home farm. It was this old German and his wife, they had a deal, contract where we would set up with the government – so they were used to Americans being there. They treated us like kings, they would feed us. And we would give them cigarettes here and there, and his wife always brought bread – fresh German bread. And he knew we couldn’t drink, but he was still – smuggled us a couple bottles of schnapps. But still, he remembered the Americans. Americans. And he hated communism. And the only ones that would not talk to us – and we figured, those were the ones that were in the war - the soldiers. German soldiers. They stayed away from us, and we discovered too, the older men would always wear long sleeves. No matter how hot it was. And somebody told us once, they think they were SS. Cause the SS marked on arms, and everybody else would run around with short sleeves. �(41:57) Interviewer: “What about the people your own age?” The younger kids, the college kids. They wanted us out, cause of nuclear weapons. And we were warned several times, careful in Frankfurt, might be a riot. And the younger kids by then, they wanted us out. No more nukes, that was hot and heavy in the mid ‘80s. And you see the protests, we got caught up in the protests in Frankfurt. There was four of us, and we were like… scared, ‘what are we gonna do?’ And it was this shop owner, pulled us in his shop. He knew we were Americans of course, with the haircuts. And we waited ‘til that protests went through, they were burning American flags, screaming, yelling, we ended up having five more buddies down the way got caught smack-dab in the center of that thing also, and they couldn’t get out. They were running trying to get away from there, by then the Germans said, ‘These are American soldiers,’ they pinned ‘em up against the walls and by then the Polizei were right there with their German shepards, but we’re still in that shop. And to this day I still remember that shop owner, we thanked him and thanked him and thanked him, and every time we went in Frankfurt we made sure we’d stop off at that shop. Of all things, it was a toy store. Interviewer: “Cause that’s somewhere where in the United States, when all that stuff was going on, I mean the Korean airliner thing attracted a certain amount of attention but at home it wasn’t really something where you really thought that that was gonna get you into a war or whatever else, and of course you – while there was an anti-nuclear movement of a sort that had been around, born really in the late ‘70s, you know, rioting, things like that now – I mean maybe over building a nuclear powerplant someplace-“ Exactly. Interviewer: “But yeah, it was just a different set of experiences there. Right.” Growing up, what rioting I remember seeing on TV of course, was down south. With issues down there, that’s where you saw the rioting – firemen with the fire hoses and all this. Interviewer: “Yeah, and there were antiwar – the antiwar stuff that went on the late ‘60s, early ‘70s too, but yeah, but for this whole other stuff going on in the ’80s, yeah it doesn’t affect us here. Okay, now are there other things that went on when you were in Hanau that kind of stand out in your memory from that tour?” Flag burning. We had a rec room, we used to watch news. It was stars and stripes, and then it was CNN news, they would have a partnership with CNN news. Bunch of us in the rec room watching TV, it was late, they’re talking about flag burning. ‘Flag burning? … burn flags in the US. What?’ Then they’re showing it. ‘The hell’s going on?’ Then they said it was okay to burn flags, [the] American flag. ‘Nawww, no way’ If somebody would’ve told me, ‘yeah, they’re burning flags in America,’ I wouldn’t have believed it ‘til I saw it on TV. And then AIDS, that’s same time about the AIDS breakout. And I remember a lot us saying we’re not going home, I’m �not going home, I mean what’s going on? Had the AIDS breakout, then ‘course the flag burning. ‘Course President Reagan, reassuring everybody everything’s gonna be fine. And we’re at Grafenwoehr when the Challenger exploded. Watched that on TV. It was cold, and I walked into the area, just got back from the range working on some tanks. Everybody’s gathered around the TV, ‘what’s going on?’ ‘Space shuttle exploded.’ And we were just at awe at that. Still, all our graphs, cause what news coverage we got wasn’t all that big – that was from the states. (46:39) Interviewer: “Now what was the time frame when you were in Germany for that tour?” From 1981 to ’84. Interviewer: “Okay. So I’m trying to think when the Challenger exploded I guess that was ’84, yeah. Okay, alright, so those things go on, then at this point now you’re running into the end of your original enlistment. At what point do you – did you decide to reenlist while you’re in Germany or?” No. When I was at Fort Polk, Louisiana. I got orders to go to Fort Polk, but right before I left – I would say a year before I left we started getting the M1 tanks. And the Army’s phasing out the M60 tanks. And I got orders to go on M1 – deprocessing team. What we were doing was receiving the brand new M1s, there was forty of us from all over Europe, got the orders. And the Army’s phasing out the M60s. So we had to work on the M1s, get them ready for issue. Finish working on what the plant didn’t finish putting on. And same thing, crash-course learning – cause we didn’t go to school for M1s. And by then [the] M1 was all computerized. Very few optics in the thing, all relied on circuit boards. I can say it now, cause all of this stuff is – I probably wouldn’t even recognize a M1 tank today compared to what we had. So you know, we were taught how to drive ‘em, fix ‘em, everything on these things. This went on for a year, and so like I said we’re phasing everything out. Start seeing accidents with these things. Especially wintertime, if anybody’s been to Grafenwoehr or Hohenfels, driving on a tank trail [in] wintertime, a sixty-ton tank and ice [don’t] mix. I mean, just out of the blue the thing would take off on you. You’re standing on the brake and you’re sliding, even though you’re not going that fast. Well … takes over. Had one guy, slid so hard into a tree he died. And then we had a couple guys in the motorpool, one got too close to another tank – and we had to line the tanks up front to back, front to back, where you’re almost touching. Well one guy traversed so fast, he didn’t think someone was on the outside and caught the guy between two tanks. And then you know, we knew about war but they didn’t teach you on fatalities. Anything was… get everything cleaned up, go back to work. Get drunk. And shake it off. So you know, we’re using a high pressure hose to get rid of the blood and on the new tanks, still that battalion coming in for this new tanks, … get these things out. And there was still a lot of accidents, people don’t realize, you know we didn’t fire a shot over there, you know how many casualties [there] were over there just in the ‘80s alone? Covered all four US wars. Nobody knows about the casualties we had in peacetime. We had explosions, vehicles overturning, vehicles in wrecks. Short rounds, guys getting hit by a mortar that fell short. The last year I was in Germany, Grafenwoehr had an engineer battalion, �combat engineer battalion working on landmines, how to set landmines – one exploded, killed seven guys. (51:45) Interviewer: “Yeah. I mean sometimes news of military accidents comes through, but usually it’s a helicopter crash or something like that.” Very brief. But when there was a explosion in the turret of a tank, no one knows – compared to today. And that sticks in my gull. Interviewer: “Okay. Now we had gotten into this, so you spent the last year in Germany on that tour, you’re now working with the Abrams tanks and so forth and you get orders to go to Fort Polk.” Fort Polk, Louisiana. I knew for sure I p’d off somebody to send me there. Who did I make mad? I was running through my mind – must’ve been my first sergeant, ‘come to commander!’ Got down there in Louisiana, drove down – it was July, hot. I mean now where I’m from Indiana, it got hot, extremely hot, the humidity wise. Louisiana, completely different animal. Get a sign, maintenance battalion, now when I left Germany I had a four-man room – still World War II barracks. Get down at Fort Polk, open bay barracks. Interviewer: “Now what rank were you at this point?” Sergeant. Interviewer: “Okay.” So I got my little – MY room. The only ones who got the rooms were in Seals, still open bay barracks. And being sergeant green, he you know, did all - what he had to do, get me signed in, processed, and got my equipment. And he said, ‘you guys get jungle fatigues.’ Why? Cause we were – we had to buy our BDUs, weren’t issued. And the BDUs at the time were heavy fatigues, he goes, ‘Down here we wear Vietnam era jungle fatigues.’ Now I don’t know personally if you’ve ever seen the fatigues – very light, very airy. Breathable, compared to what we had for the BDUs. (54:13) Interviewer: “What does BDU stand for by the way, is that battle dress uniform?” Correct. A woodland camouflage. So went to buy my jungle fatigues, they were olive green, and put my camouflage uniforms away, and then the new guys are coming in from basic, same thing. They’re buying jungle fatigues – we even had the jungle boots too. Look, I came from Germany! And was issued a window fan and a mosquito net and I was like… I want Germany, I �want Germany. And it was so hot down there, the Fort Polk day for armor and artillery, they weren’t as big as in Germany. The whole time I was there, fifteen months there, I worked on one tank. An old M60. You’re inside that turret and you’re sweating, sweating, I mean… hot. Now I did get to work on optics you know, binoculars and some sights, but nothing like in Europe. Now they didn’t have no M1s there, not yet. And this M60 had to be moved, so the platoon sergeant I had then, he goes, ‘You’re from Germany aren’t you?’ ‘Yep.’ ‘You know how to drive a tank?’ ‘Yeah I know how to drive a tank!’ ‘M60?’ ‘Yes!’ I showed him my driver’s license cause everything, what vehicle you drive… I moved this dinosaur, and the last tank I moved then was an M1. Now the M1 compared to the M60 – imagine you have a Volkswagen, all of a sudden you got a BMW. That’s how the M1 was, everything. But down there in Fort Polk, best way to describe it – just imagine somewhere in the country you see a bunch of people on a porch just fanning themselves, Fort Polk – while I was there, I think we had two alerts. And the guys from Germany and Korea, who went through alerts all the time, we got our stuff quickly. Now the guys who were stationed in the states, alerts? They’re still him-hawing around, yelling, screaming, ‘Where’s my backpack? Where’s my tent? Where’s this, where’s that?’ And you learn, especially from Europe and Korea how to have everything you need in that rucksack, everything. From extra pairs of socks, underwear, t-shirts, your sleeping bag, your tent, everything. And there’s these guys, they’re going, ‘I can’t find that stuff, what’s up?’ Well us guys from Germany and Korea, we’re already at the arms room, we’re ready. And these other guys are just finally showing up. Waiting at the truck, I got assigned a truck. Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, where is everybody? Cause you know in Germany, it’s ‘go, gotta go, gotta go.’ Lose the …. Finally they showed up, alert’s over with. So some other people said well, ‘how come you have all this stuff, you’re carrying all that stuff?’ Man, you need it. And I taught ‘em. ‘Alright, this is called a tanker drill. This is what you put in your rucksack, and it stays 24/7, don’t touch it.’ ‘Why? I wanna go camping?’ ‘Buy a tent then.’ And they couldn’t understand why you needed everything, cause in Germany you needed everything. From your mess kit to… the Army still used [a] two-man tent, one guy had one shelter half, [the other had] the other shelter half. So everything, in Louisiana, trying to get these guys figured out. Except for the guys coming in from overseas, we were ready. Then we were told, ‘Slow down.’ ‘Why?’ ‘We’ll never see a chemical attack here, nuclear attack. We’ll never be deployed.’ Battalion commander, when they had their incident at Grenada, he did everything to volunteer that battalion to go to Grenada. And most of the Vietnam guys were laughing at them, ‘these fools are gonna get us killed.’ I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that one movie with Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge? (59:19) Interviewer: “Yeah, mhm.” How him and that battalion commander and the old first sergeant you know, how they talked. That’s how it was. And I was still listening to the Vietnam vets, cause they still know what they’re talking about, but the guys from Germany are like, ‘We’re in trouble,’ especially with how they’re pushing chemical warfare, nuclear attack and all this. So then every Wednesday it was training day – we gave classes, would give more or less a refresher of what you were taught from basic and all this. And I’m telling the honest truth, I have the certificate to show you, and it was �bugging me – nothing on chemical warfare. So they encouraged you to give a class. That’s part of your job. So I said I’ll do a chemical warfare [class], how to decontaminate. They’re like, ‘decontaminate?’ ‘Yes!’ How to decontaminate your vehicle in case you’re – for chemicals. So my company commander said ‘Fine, write me up some index cards on the class.’ And the – our chemical NBC NCO wasn’t too keen on chemical warfare, and with all his time spent at Fort Polk – and like I said the training for that was… so I gave him a class, like I said that day, was more or less like a round-table thing for classes, from CPR, weapons, common map-reading, how to communicate on radio. Well mine was outside, and I had my truck – which was a 5-ton truck. They did have decontamination bottles there, which was charged by CO2 canisters. I laid out everything, and then everybody was going outside to my station. Had to introduce [myself] to ‘em, who I was and what the class [was]. And my company commander says, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ We were drilled, and drilled, and drilled, to the point [where we could] do it in our sleep. So I was giving my class, everybody’s like, ‘okay, so you have to clean it,’ you know, with this canister you had to soak, hose down inside the cabin of the truck, everything you would imagine you would touch. From the outside, inside, if you’re hauling troops, the backside. Went and [decontaminated] that truck. They’re saying, ‘Why? What if you’re separated from [your] unit?’ You see a vehicle, and you’re trying to make it back to the back. There’s a bunch of you, you see a vehicle that’s still working? You want to decontaminate that, get you and your people back in the back. By then you’ll be decontaminated. I told them how it had been done and how we were taught, and so this went on for all day, I think I probably had eight classes that day. Battalion commander showed up, and he very suddenly shows up – well there’s other units, he showed up to mine. So he wanted to know how I learned all this. I said, ‘In Germany this is – we’re training on this 24/7, besides your weapon.’ And he goes – and he was stationed in Germany, he remembers all the training. He says, ‘Stateside units are weak on this.’ He said, ‘Well run me through your class.’ I ran through my class, and everything, him and his aide and his first sergeants went through the class. It was over with, he said I gave a very nice class and he said, ‘You should be proud of what you were taught.’ That was it, left. Week later, all of the sudden we had a formation, battalion commander was there. And that’s when I got the Army achievement medal for my NBC classes. Now, if it had been Germany it’d have been another ‘oh god,’ there… and the funniest thing was listening to people say, ‘I can’t drive his truck!’ Cause they didn’t know how to drive stick shift. You’re gonna learn, guarantee. But they’re like, ‘will it save lives?’ They’re saying it will save your life. And so I got back to the barracks feeling kind of proud of myself, and this sergeant … in front of me, and he said ‘Showoff.’ You know, and he’d been to Europe. But it was just funny how stateside units… and it was getting’ time for reenlisting. And I liked [the] Army, I really did. I liked the structure. Everybody in the military was your family, I don’t care who you were – I think you heard this from other vets, when they get, use the term ‘brother,’ it’s true. With your best friend, you know everything about him, he knows everything about you. You almost feel like you’re part of his family, way he would talk about his family, vice versa. But at Fort Polk, soon as everything was done, boom, get in your car, go. There weren’t that very many people to hang out, like there was in Europe. These guys complained about how much they hated the Army, I’m like, ‘you got it made here!’ There’s no alerts, you’re not in the field. Went to the field once at Fort Polk – and nothing like Germany. �(1:05:46) It’s time to reenlist. ‘I’ll do it for another four years, what the hell.’ I’m having fun. By then, my dad had lost the farm – that’s when farming was taken out. Nosedive. I didn’t wanna work in a coal mine… The girl who I had high hopes [for], the reason why I went into the Army? Pffft, forgot about her, long time ago. So I reenlisted. Reenlistment NCO said, ‘Alright, where you want to be stationed at? Your dream sheet.’ First three places I chose the first time – Fort Campbell, Fort Knox, and Hawaii. ‘Okay.’ So it’s Knox, Campbell, Hawaii. Waited around for about two-three weeks, got orders. ‘Germany!’ ‘What happened to..’ ‘Well, those slots were filled.’ ‘Germany!’ He goes, ‘Could be worse, [you could] go to Korea.]’ I heard too many horror stories about Korea, no no no no. Then my thirty-day leave, and this time I knew what to expect. Leave went by fine, fantastic, got on that airplane and got [to the] reception station in Frankfurt. Same thing. So they said, ‘You’re gonna be assigned to the third infantry division.’ And I told them ‘I’m not infantry. I’m maintenance!’ ‘No no no, they got tanks and artillery there.’ ‘Can I go back to originally where I came from, 19th?’ They’re like, ‘No, no. Third infantry.’ So they came down, picked me up, and then they told me the history of third infantry, Audie Murphy. Okay, it’s cool. And got there, Wurzburg. Again, German barracks. Expected that, and so I expected everything, what I went through the first time I was in Germany. So I said, ‘What shop am I going to?’ Figured I’m going to a shop. ‘You’re not going to a shop, you’ve been assigned to a armor brigade.’ And that was the death knell, cause guys in armor brigade, their maintenance people, when the tanks moved, they moved. And they didn’t work out a nice, clean, sterile shop. They worked out of a van the size of a moving van. Said ‘this can’t be too bad,’ so I got there, platoon sergeant’s explaining everything, this is what my duties were – and we had … which was the computer to [run] tests on the computers on the tanks. Would tell you what was wrong, mostly circuit card, diode, all this. You won’t see no optics, I guarantee it. ‘It’s you and this one guy.’ Okay, fine, no problem. And this guy was like, ‘Oh, welcome, da-da-da,’ he was my roommate. We had nothing to do for about a month! Next thing I know, I’m busting track on a tank – which was not my job. They needed help, and they came to the truck, ‘you doing anything today?’ ‘Nope.’ ‘Yeah, you are.’ (1:09:37) Interviewer: “Mhm.” ‘You ever bust track before?’ ‘No. I drove tanks before.’ Ended up, for that whole month, they were reshoeing the M1s, busting track. Didn’t get to work inside the turret hardly. Interviewer: “Alright, you had no experiences with that at all?” No experience. Learn as you go. And so all the sudden, the recovery driver, which drives the M88 recovery vehicle, he was getting out. No one really – they had a hard time finding a replacement for him, and they looked at [me], and they said, ‘You’re a pretty big guy, you like heavy equipment?’ ‘It don’t bother me.’ And one of them said, ‘You’re a farm boy, aren’t you.’ ‘Yeah, no problem.’ ‘You’re our new recovery operator.’ Never recovered anything before in my �whole life, this thing is big enough, flip over a truck without even breaking a sweat, small APC, they usually use it to pull engine packs out of tanks. Learn as you go, never went to recovery school. But again, when the tanks moved, that thing moved. They would get stuck in the mud, we had to hook up to ‘em, try to pull them out. Wading through the mud, you’re muddy. In the process I ran across a friend of mine who was still at 19th maintenance. And there we were always proud of our uniforms, everything was always starched. Boots, spit-shined. Ran across him, saw his uniform was [the] same rank, he said ‘You look like a ragamuffin!’ ‘I don’t have time! We don’t do looking pretty no more!’ Boots and mud, and when you’re at Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels I hope you run into a veteran, you’ll find mud [where] you never thought you could find mud. Summertime, dust. This real fine dust powder. And so again, you never dreamt [where] you could find dust, and the mud. But my friend’s like ‘Yeah, I’m still in the same truck we used to have back then!’ That truck, you could eat off the floor cause everything had to be clean. I said, ‘Well have you been working on the M1s?’ ‘Not much! What do you do on them?’ So I told him, ‘Well, in my unit you bust track, you help ‘em pull engine packs out.’ Course you’re working a turret, are you pulling a turret out or replacing a gun barrel?’ He goes, ‘we weren’t taught that in school.’ ‘I know, nothing.’ But they – you did everything when it came to the armor. Also I think for the artillery. And, ‘Can you replace the barrel in an M1?’ ‘Yeah.’ Takes two guys. ‘Can you do this on it?’ ‘Yep.’ ‘Can you pull that motor by yourself?’ ‘Yup.’ Still takes two guys. When we first started processing the M1s in [the] mid ‘80s, they discovered everything was in metric. And we had nothing but U.S. standard toolboxes. Now these are coming in from the states, metric. We couldn’t pull – everybody had their own certain job with a brand new tank, mine was to climb underneath there, drop these two plates, look for serial numbers. Couldn’t drop ‘em. They were 17mm, was there a 17mm in Germany that the Army issued? Interviewer: “Nope.” They had to go [an] auto parts store, German auto parts store, get a 17mm socket. That thing could’ve stopped if we would’ve had a war… it was the funniest thing I’ve ever seen, 17mm. (1:14:00) Interviewer: “Alright, okay. So you do this second tour, you join this armor brigade and you’re doing all these different kinds of things, and so what else kind of stands out about that tour for you?” How they would take people out of their MOSs and teach ‘em to do other jobs. We were so short-handed when we went to the range, desperately hurting for people. And I told [my] platoon sergeant, I said, ‘look, I need another person to-‘ My roommates then, Mark and I, we had this one tank [that] was giving us fits. Electronics. Need somebody to help us, you know, run to the truck, run the part on …, while one person is still in the turret. But we needed a person, once that part was fixed, run that part – or that piece of equipment to the person in the turret. Losing time! ‘I’ll get you somebody.’ They pulled a company clerk, a PSC. Not his job, never been in the field before. He’s just standing there, never been in mud. But that’s how it was, they pull somebody, and by the time I left – even though I’ve never been to gunnery, the tanker showed �me. Cause we had – what they were having problems with [was] fixing their sights. So we had to work on that. Then all of the sudden once you finish working on it at the range, they’re lobbing ‘em downrange. And you learn. I was on another deprocessing team for the second time around, and these were the new M1s coming out – there’s M1, [and] M1A1. Same thing, but this time we were at the ranges with these new tanks. And I didn’t see my company, my original – that armor brigade for a year. And back doing the same thing, but this time I had more experience cause there was some times we had to replace track. ‘Ooh, I know how to do that!’ Learnt that from them. And then when they came with the new M1A1, they were having problems with the hydraulic system. … put the wrong hydraulic fluid in the turret, and they put original hydraulic fluid instead of organic. And original was eating the O-rings worse than… you know, these are sixty million dollar tanks – and ready to be issued. But what really – I mean there’s one thing I did forget to tell you about, I don’t know if you remember when the Marines were bombed in Lebanon? We had an alert for that. And had to go get the M88, drive it down to post, put it at post, we already had the thing staggered and everybody was flipping out you know, ‘we’re gonna get bombed, we’re gonna get bombed,’ and they’re trying to reassure us, ‘no, we’re fine, we’re fine.’ At the same time, we’re starting to deal with terrorists. In the ‘80s, in Germany. They blew up that nightclub, that killed Americans. And then also there was a bombing in Frankfurt, airport, at Rhein-Main. And then when Reagan – President Reagan visited Libya over the bombing at the nightclub, and that really put everybody on edge. And they were saying, ‘Anybody who has a personal vehicle, this is what you need to look for, especially parked on the streets. Look at your gas cap filter – make sure the door’s closed, open it up, look at your gas cap. Make sure your doors are shut, none of them are ajar.’ And so everybody’s getting really paranoid, driving to the main gate, the MPs are out there with their metal detectors and the mirrors, looking underneath the vehicle. And my roomie and I went to Heidelberg just for fun, and.. walking back to his car, and all the sudden he noticed the passenger door. ‘Did you shut the door?’ ‘Yeah I shut it.’ ‘Was it ajar?’ ‘(‘I don’t know’ noise) Well I didn’t shut it all the way.’ But he was so paranoid, ‘You were sitting in that seat, not me!’ God, and that was the thing we were paranoid [about]. The terrorists. Plus the Soviets. And then the bombing at Beirut, we never thought of stuff like [that]. Then all the sudden the busses that we had on post, regular school busses – they had metal over the windows – mesh. (1:19:45) Interviewer: “Like being back in Vietnam.” It’s like what the… But we were still laid-back though, once we convoyed through the cities, the smaller towns – get to either Hohenfels, Grafenwoehr, and we still had to stop in these small cities. Had to stay by your truck, Germans would walk up to us – nothing like today, worry about suicide vests. Or somebody mucking around with your fuel tank like they did in Vietnam, would do the grenades with the tape where the fuel would loosen up the tape on the handles on the grenades, and off they went. Germany, the Germans come up to us and offer us coffee – especially if there’s a deli, the deli owner would come out with brotchens, and lunch meat – ham. Feed us! Left and right, nothing like it is today. There was always, would be somebody by the vehicle with – but our weapons were usually in the cab of the truck, were never loaded �anyway but… so it was always fun driving through these little towns because the Germans would look at your vehicle and stuff, they’d snoop around. They’d tell me how when I used to drive the 88 going through the towns, cobblestone streets – you know, this is a eighty-ton vehicle, and you know, [they’d] tell me how many years they’d been seeing American tanks run through here and all this. But very nice people. But it’s a shame today’s troops can’t do that like I said, going through Afghanistan. Interviewer: “Yeah, very different thing.” Different animal. And the troops in Vietnam, they were on their feet. If they stopped off at a little village or what there is of a town, they had to worry about the guerillas there, sabotaging. Interviewer: “If we can kind of steer back here toward your second tour – cause we’ve kind of gone and you’ve had kind of a flashback into the first tour and that kind of thing and that’s a good thing to have filled in, alright. So are there other main duties that you had or other things you did in Germany in that second tour beyond what you’ve talked about here?” (1:22:16) Well once I became an NCO – full time babysitter, which.. when I was a private, when an NCO told you to do something - from a Vietnam vet - NCOs we had, they said something, we’d listen to ‘em. Once they started to leave, there [were] very few Vietnam veterans still in the service. So a lot of those guys [who’ve] been in for a while, we remember what they taught us. Especially even though it was Germany, what to expect in a firefight. How to set up the claymore landmines, they were – or how to shoot your 203 grenade launcher. If you were an M60 crew or M50 crew, they were – they drilled that in, this is how you’re… your line of fire, everything. What they – but it was still taught to us. Then when it came – like I said earlier, they were old school. When it came time for room inspections they would flip out. I mean, god forbid they see a dust bunny floating underneath your bed. But it was still drilled into us, the new guys coming along. I mean, I feel bad now because I used to call some of the old Vietnam vets that I got along with ‘Pops, Grandpa,’ just wait, just wait, you know. And you knew the ones who you could monkey with and you knew the ones – especially once they’re drunk, no - leave them alone. Now, I was becoming an …, became a squad leader. I had kids under me. So I, you know, we had the room inspections. Keep your equipment [in] excellent shape, make sure everything worked. Make sure you had everything, especially when it came to the backpack like I told you about, Fort Polk. ‘I can’t find this, I can’t find that,’ but we also helped out the ones that were lagging behind, that’s what the Vietnam vets taught us. You don’t leave nobody. No matter what. So even though you went through something a thousand times that day with a certain person, you’re still helping ‘em. And so we – even out in the field we always had two canteens with us, with our gear. You have water in your canteen. It’s one of the things they’re always preaching, do you – make sure you have water. Then it got to the point, these new guys – the new privates. We’re getting after them, and… but then [in] the back of your head you’re still hearing the older guys, and… like I said, with then, with the older Vietnam guys – lipped off to one of ‘em, he might not �do nothin’ in front of you, minute you cross that corner he’s got you. And he would drill, ‘you don’t lip off, you listen.’ Cause you didn’t listen, you got so-and-so killed. … something sneak in. Nighttime, out in the thing, perimeter, these guys would wig out over the perimeter. When we had to string up Concertina wire in our area – this is when we were still having C-rations in cans. ‘What’s all this for?’ And when it’s time [for] posting guards, ‘don’t go to sleep, don’t go to sleep,’ even though it was Germany! And sometimes I think they were reliving their experience. Interviewer: “Probably were.” (1:26:39) And.. but still, the training. You gotta make sure you look out for your men, cover your men, and – like I said, then toward the end, lot of ‘em were gone. But then I guess you could say the new generation, we inherited their ball. And it was an honor, really. Interviewer: “So we were kind of talking about, kind of the later stages of your military career and your time in Germany, the point where you’ve kind of become the old guy, the Vietnam generation has gone out. How do you characterize the kinds of people who were joining the Army and coming in after you, in terms of their backgrounds or aptitudes or..” The people, [who] I went in with, from basic to probably about middle-time, we were all the same age group. In basic training [you] might as well figure you had your eighteen-year-olds and your nineteen-year-olds, maybe a couple seventeen-year-olds sprinkled in. I still remember we had twenty-year-olds and a couple Vietnam guys came back in, and so we were – except for some of the twenty-year-olds, us – the younger guys, we’re all still in the same mindset. High school, that big football game, that big pass that you caught and all this, or dating a cheerleader, or ‘my car is this fast,’ and all that. And there are small-town guys, still hung out together, you know. Still the same mindset. And even in Germany everybody was still almost in the same age group. You know, you were stationed with people from different parts of the US, and – but still the same mind group, except for what - the training. We were starting to take things a little more seriously, and I guess you could say it’s more or less going through college: freshman year, you’re green, you’re running around banging your head on ‘which direction do I go, what am I doing, what did I do.’ By the time your sophomore year, ‘okay, I know not to hit that wall no more, cause it’s gonna hurt.’ But you’re listening more to instruction. Following the direction. Now by then the older kids – I would say the Vietnam vets, for me, were starting to.. ‘okay, this guy’s alright.’ They will lead you through that – to get you going in the right direction, but they’re not gonna hold your hand all the way, they’re gonna let you fall. Same thing for college. By the time you hit your junior year, if you haven’t figured out what you’re gonna do or get your assignments on, you’re gonna fall. Well, in the Army, after… for me, I think the sixth year I knew where I was heading in the Army. Toward training, toward leading troops. It was all because that senior grabbed me by the neck, ‘it’s gotta be done this way,’ and his thing – I remember one of the Vets told me, ‘The Army’s been doing this for 150 years, they’re not going to change because you think it’s a better idea. Forget it.’ And once I got my five and I was, like I said, put into a squad leader position, then the ones that I was with – they were gone, out of the Army. �Same age group, they did their four years, three years, two years, they were gone. By the time I was twenty-six, I was considered the old guy – except for my senior NCOs. Then, I’m dealing with eighteen-year-olds, nineteen-year-olds. And trying to teach them what I was taught – by then the Army was changing their ways, where discipline-wise, wasn’t as harsh. (1:31:31) Interviewer: “Okay.” And so… you’d sit there and talk ‘em through more stuff, hold ‘em through more stuff. And I still remember a smart-aleck kid, I was climbing out of the turret of a tank and so help me, every bone in my body cracked, cause I twisted a certain way - goes, ‘Man, you’re old!’ I’m only twenty-six! ‘You’re an old man!’ When he said that from that day – like you know … came through PT, doing.. trying to prove I can still do more things than he can do. I can still take that ball and run, later that day, once I got back to the barracks, ‘Oh my god, I’m gonna die, shoot me now!’ These guys were (breathing heavily) ‘til it dawned on me and my roomie, we were talking – we were like that too, young and stupid. And.. but it was a different era, came in. We had suicide problems. Young guy, with sticks in my head… young kid, he was from Iowa, I won’t say his name – and we used to call him ‘Opie,’ had a girlfriend, he was the high school quarterback, by then the Army was teaching us to get more involved in your soldiers’ [lives]. Leave your door open, if you have a problem, talk to ‘em. Now this was getting away from working on tanks and running through the woods in Germany and all that, so... had this kid, and [he] got a Dear John letter – got used to getting Dear John letter[s], get the guy drunk as you can or take him to Frankfurt. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Frankfurt – at the time there was a red light district. You know, everybody always paid out of their own pocket to make this kid happy again, and we did everything with this kid. And the girlfriend, Dear John letter, and I guess they’d been together for god knows how many years. And one day he walked in the motorpool, and he hung himself. I didn’t see him do it – actually, nobody did. Then one day somebody was walking through the motorpool, MPs were showing up, ambulance and first sarge grabbed me, and let me know what’s happening, he’s growling at me. ‘What happened with this kid?’ And I’m like, ‘I don’t know!’ ‘Why did he hang himself?’ I didn’t know. And my door was open, but it was the way I was taught – you had a problem, you worked it out. And… I let that one slip through my fingers, not knowing. And took that one hard, and first sarge had been a Vietnam vet, 2nd 11 Cavalry. He said, ‘You know, this hurts worse than having one get shot.’ And so, still had [an] open-door policy but I wanted to walk up to you if you had a letter from your family, ‘lemme read it!’ And ‘specially if you had got a Dear John I doubt… if you let me read it. Of course we did give the big brother advice, if somebody did get a Dear John, ‘oh, to heck with that girl, you can do better, let’s get drunk.’ And you know, try to make ‘em feel better. (1:36:05) Interviewer: “Alright, now were there any women coming into your unit yet, or?” �We had women in our unit, the first time no women. Second time, that’s when the Army – we started having segregated barracks. And that was – I’ve personally, myself, never been in college – but I can image what college dorm room life was like. With females. They still couldn’t work on the tanks, the armor – but they mostly were for supply, paperwork, administration. And couple of ‘em did small arm repairs, and they’d beg and plead, ‘can we go out there on the tanks?’ ‘No, no, no, you can’t, you’re a girl.’ Interviewer: “Mhm.” Well that’s the worst thing to someone who’s hellbent on… okay, got permission from platoon sergeant, had her come out there and help us. Small girl, figured after a couple days lifting all these components out, then all of a sudden she could get in these areas where us big guys were struggling to get in. She loved it! Every minute of it. And we had a howitzer that needed the fuel cells replaced – diesel fuel cells, they’re bladders. Not ever worked on the artillery pieces ‘cept for the sights. One of the guys says, ‘Do you think you she could climb into that fuel cell and start pulling it out?’ Everybody else was too big. ‘Okay fine, no problem.’ She got into that thing, started busting her butt – we nicknamed her Mouse. She – everybody was in, the big guys were in love cause she could squirrel through that thing, and she was puttin’ some of the regular guys to shame. And.. but she loved it. And when she reenlisted, she reenlisted to be a mechanic. And.. but to this day they still don’t let women go into artillery brigades, or tank brigades. But the two I saw, oh yeah they’ve been great. I saw female truck drivers, could wheel around some of those deuce and a halfs - deuce and a halfs didn’t have power steering, these are still the manual steering. I don’t know if you’ve ever drove a manual steering vehicle, you know, lifts you out of your seat when you try and turn. Some of these women I saw were palming the steering wheel like it’s… ‘Okay sister!’ And they could hold their own, but still having a barracks of women, that was really weird. Extremely weird, couldn’t get used to it at first. But like I said, then it [became] college dorm life. It was fun. Interviewer: “Okay. So you kind of adapted to that, so it wasn’t a great morale problem to have the women there or?” (1:39:29) No! Still had some hardcore NCOs – female and males, they didn’t like it. And the younger guys, oh it was paradise to them. I mean, so... guys are sneaking down to their floors, girls were – my roommate was notorious, [would] always bring a girl in the room. I would wake up and see a toe from underneath the blanket, ‘alright that’s not his toe.’ Cause he better not be wearing red nail polish! But you know, just blew it off. Our, when new girls would show up at the barracks that had been assigned to us, I think every window of the barracks was open and these guys were like, ‘that’s gonna be mine, guarantee it.’ So yeah. Interviewer: “Do you know if there were problems with harassment or guys pushing things too far?” �If there was, it was taken care of in the barracks – it was nothing like that big Navy scandal in the ‘80s – Tailhook, I think. Interviewer: “Tailhook, yeah.” No, there was – I mean, if somebody did cross a line either they stayed away from each other very well… being an NCO I never heard nothing, nothing like it was with the drug issue. But usually you would call the – that’s what I was just telling Cody, my neighbor that brought me. A military romance, after a couple weeks, move on. Interviewer: “Alright, now were drugs an issue in the Army in the ‘80s?” Yeah. Everybody would leave Frankfurt, go to Amsterdam – hash. And cocaine was starting to make a big deal. Somebody would bring back pot and they would get laughed at, ‘why I got hash here! Why would I want to smoke pot?’ ‘Course drinking was a big issue. Still had your annual urine test, and then couple days later all the sudden MPs [would] be lying down in front of the barracks, calling names, or they would bring the dogs in. And guys would, had brilliant ideals on throwing the scent off on the dogs, they swore up and down, black pepper and all this. But once the dogs came in, searched your room, and – but like I said, the urine tests – but yeah, drugs were a problem. Interviewer: “And did you see occasions where it sort of affected anybody’s job performance? Or was this really kind of an off-duty issue?” Off-duty issue. We had one guy, flipped out – turned out he was doing coke. And flipped out in the motorpool, somebody was doing something and flat-out caused him to flip out. But in the ‘70s, I think, since you’ve been doing Vietnam vets, drug problems, very bad. So the military kind of got a handle on it – what to look for. I don’t know if any of your Vietnam vets told you about – with their NBC mask, their carrier. They used to have a EpiPen with them. And the EpiPen was speed that you would jab in your leg, if you had a chemical attack. So they were using their Vietnam – that EpiPen left and right, left and right. Well the military decided to take that EpiPen out, so by the time the ‘80s rolled around, we still had the same gas masks and all, no EpiPen. Cause the Vietnam guys would get stoned off the thing. Being speed. And… but then they got really hot and heavy with the drug testing stuff. Interviewer: “Okay. Now were there racial issues at all in the ‘80s?” (1:44:00) No. As you and I talked earlier about my southern drawl, when it does come out – basic training, where I’m from back home there was no African-Americans, no Hispanics, no Asians – all-white community. For high school football, we played this one – our first all-Black football team. We didn’t know what to do. And coach was getting after us, ‘They’re people! Hit ‘em! They’ll hit you back!’ And all that stuff. And man, these guys could run. Could never catch ‘em. We got our �butts handed to us. First time experience with African-Americans. Now, growing up, TV, you saw the protests with the fire hoses and all that. That was left at that, we go into other towns that had African-Americans, you looked at ‘em, all this. And you hear the violence on TV. Well, basic training starts. We had a mixture of… couple Asians, lot of Cubans that – their families escaped. And the boat people. Interviewer: “Right.” ‘Course, African-Americans. So [I was] assigned this bunk, guy sittin’ above me, and his name is Roro, black – a black man. Blackest man I’ve seen! He had his shoes and socks off, he’s sitting above me and his feet… and I just couldn’t keep from staring, and I kept staring. And staring, and finally he looked over his bunk – ‘Never been around a black man before, have you?’ And I’m like, ‘oh yeah, yeah.’ ‘What you staring at my feet for then?’ And the bottom of his feet was the whitest, as white I’ve ever seen my whole life. First words out of his mouth, ‘you’re a hayseed.’ ‘What?’ So he broke down hayseed – okay, and we became good friends during basic. And yeah, we had problems – we had the boys from the South, there was a couple fights in the barracks. And it got nipped in the bud real quick, and you right away knew who was racist. White and black. So basic went through, there was no major shooting, behind doors, yeah you heard the N-word quite a bit, from both sides. And I could never understand why a black man would call another black man the N-word. But I asked ‘em, ‘Why can you do that and I can’t?’ They’re like, ‘well you just can’t.’ ‘Why?’ I never got a definite answer. So I made it through basic training, AIT, same thing, everything smooth as silk. Then when I got assigned to 19th Maintenance, I had a four-man room. By then they were starting to segregate the rooms, white and black, white and black, white and black. No more all white, no more all-black. Interviewer: “So they’re de-segregating the rooms then.” (1:47:42) Exactly, thank you, de-segregating. And so this corporal took me to my room, he goes, ‘Good luck with your roommates,’ and he opened the door, guys were sitting there, all three of ‘em were black. One of ‘em said, first word, ‘hell no!’ And I… oh my lord, I’m… so got in there, introduced myself, they introduced themselves. Two of ‘em [were] from Detroit. That one was from Los Angeles. And got settled in and all that, these guys made me feel comfortable. And after a week or so, once we really got to know each other, just imagine being stationed, or in a room with two Eddie Murphys and a Chris Rock. Cracking jokes all the time, everything. There [was] more laughing and giggling in that room, and these guys – especially the two from Detroit, and finally they’re calling each other the N-word – they looked at me, ‘long as this stays in this room, you can say it.’ I was like, ‘what?’ Well, okay… well then it was… everybody was the N. Now once we left that room, go to the mess hall… and then other black guys would show up into the room and the N-word was floating around, and I finally said it – well these other black guys – “Ohhhhh, well here we go.’ They’re like man, ‘that’s not cool, that’s not cool.’ So… but yeah, the guys from the South still – you could tell the ones that walk around with a big belt buckle and the stars and bars and everything. Now the thing in Germany, everybody bought �stereos. The biggest stereo you… I bought one. Now I’ve always loved country music, well actually, a variety of music. And I bought this Lynyrd Skynyrd decal, and it was stars and barsstyle. But instead of stars it said “Lynyrd Skynyrd.” Well then the… Lewis, that’s the one from L.A. – he could’ve been a diehard Malcolm X. There was days he would flip flop. Walked into the room, he [was] playing my stereo – we had to have headphones – he’s just sitting there listening. Walked over to see what he was playing on the turntable, a Willie Nelson song. Goes, ‘This is pretty cool!’ (laughter) And you know, back in the ‘80s all the rhythm and blues are African-American groups, you know, you had Peaches and Herb and… then they got me listening to music, and Gladys Knight. And Aretha Franklin, the Commodores, and Stevie Wonder, so the music thing, you know, by the time I left, the first time? My variety of music, instead of country, was [expanded]. But those three guys made my first tour in Germany great. And before – if I would not [have] gone into the military, if I would’ve seen three black men… I would’ve steered away. Honestly. But these guys – like I said, they’re the ones that, when they told me about life in Detroit, [at] first I thought they were yanking my chain. Since I’ve lived here in Michigan I was like, ‘Wow, that was rough.’ That was almost a war zone itself. But… and then Los Angeles, Lewis – that’s happened right at the time of the riots in L.A.— Interviewer: “Yeah, the whole Rodney King thing and—” (1:52:34) Exactly. And ‘course that was covered on AFN – Armed Force Network. And you could see the gears in his head just turning, and… I got concerned, cause right away he said, ‘See how you F’n white people are?’ And I’m like, ‘Not everybody’s like that.’ ‘Aw, bullshit.’ And then that’s when the Malcolm X side, slash… the one gentleman who wears the bow tie, Farrakhan. Interviewer: “Yeah.” That side came out. So we got into a discussion about it and all this, and by then the other two guys came into the room, and they heard him just going off and all this about whites. The other two guys yelled at him, and that’s when the N-word… go outside, play on the Autobahn, we don’t care. That’s over there. And ‘course I wanted to stand up and say the same thing, and you know… ‘Keep your mouth shut Dave, keep your mouth shut,’ but the other two guys… so he got mad and he took it out of the room, probably went to the club. Those guys [were] saying yeah, ‘People from New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, [they’re] different.’ And… but that’s, that was the hesitation. You heard behind the doors, ‘Oh, you’re after me, you’re out for me!’ But no, no… then I had to be careful on how I talked, with that drawl. Picked my words very carefully. And then I, when I got orders those guys were – the two guys were gonna head back to Detroit, work at the plants. They had family working at the plants. One was Ford, one was Chevrolet. Now with Lewis, I know he was heading back to Los Angeles, I don’t know what his plan was. I had orders to go back to Louisiana, and… Louisiana, where I was stationed there was more whites than anything. Now we did have the African-Americans from Louisiana tripping people [out], believed in voodoo. They’d touch that little bag around their neck. But racism was bad in Louisiana, they were still burning crosses. You didn’t really wanna get caught if you walked �downtown Leesville, that’s just outside of Polk – walk with a black guy, they look at you and you feel the hair on the back of your neck, and so it was… and I fooled around – this is way before I met my wife – starting dating a girl in our company, and she was black. She was from Jackson, Mississippi. It was good times, very good times. Her dad, mom, fantastic people in Jackson. They welcomed me into their home, they were drilling me, where I’m from. All this, and… they were very open-minded. Now her brother, on the other hand, [thought] ‘what was I doing in their house?’ Oh they used to get after him for one into another. And so this girl I was dating, things were getting pretty hot and heavy, and the thought of reenlisting wasn’t going to happen. ‘Nope, I’m with this girl.’ Well by then her enlistment was coming up, but she wanted to go back to Jackson. Well then that reenlistment NCO put a bug in my ear, and that’s when also, he guaranteed Fort Knox or Fort Campbell. Well I could finish my career [in the] military close to home. So this woman and I, or girl, talked about it, nope, she’s getting out. She wanted me to get out with her. And I was going to, then like I said, reenlistment NCO – and then too, the Army was throwing money at you too. Okay, wow. She got mad when I raised my right hand. So, that’s when I got orders. I knew for sure, Evans… you know, in that general area - Germany. (1:57:51) Interviewer: “Yeah, alright. Now Germany then, you’re kind of coming to the end of the reenlistment period. And at this point are you ready to get out?” I was… I was looking [forward to] becoming staff sergeant. All the sudden, there was a point freeze. And there was a freeze, they said it’s going to be a long freeze. And so I wanted to be a staff sergeant. Did everything possible [to] get my points up but still, there was that freeze. And so then they started plucking through the ranks, to be warrant officer. And actually my first platoon sergeant – he was a staff sergeant, very first one I ever had in Germany. He became a warrant officer. And he was talking to my roommate and I, he said there’s one slot open. He said, ‘I want you two to become warrant officers, forget about being staff sergeant.’ Mark and I, my roommate – like I said, we’re laughing and giggling about it, and I figure, ‘Aw heck, he’s not going to be [a] warrant officer,’ cause by then he was becoming anti-Army. Anti-government, everything. Alright. So [without] even pursuing it anymore I figure it’s gonna be a shoo-in. And so my warrant officer, he’s chief warrant officer three. ‘Still serious about being a warrant officer?’ ‘Oh yeah, I’ll do it, I’ll do it.’ ‘They’ll send you back to Aberdeen for warrant officer school,’ dadadada. ‘Okay.’ I left it at that. Week later my roomie was acting really weird, the conversation of warrant officer wasn’t brought up no more and I still didn’t think… he came out, he said, ‘I’m going to be a warrant officer.’ ‘What?’ ‘I want to take that position.’ ‘What the—’ You know, we’re both the same rank, had the same points, I said, ‘You? You’re anti-government, you hate the Army, everything!’ ‘Nope, I want to take it.’ ‘Aw,’ just… by then, just imagine, you know the sound a semi makes when it’s locking up its tires? So saw [the] warrant officer, chief, went ahead and I said, ‘You got that position?’ Then he looked me dead in the eye, ‘You want to be a warrant officer?’ ‘Yes!’ ‘Well why didn’t you say something?’ Well I said, ‘You said to Mark and I…’ He said, ‘Yeah,’ So I said, ‘Well,’ and I told him, ‘I figure Mark wouldn’t want the position and it [was going to be] easy walking.’ He goes, ‘I waited for you to say something but your roommate said [he wanted it.]’ And this is the guy who hated the Army, every time we had an �alert— (unhappy noises) Hated rules and regulations, and he took it. And so then being a professional babysitter, I was starting to get frustrated, because when you’re telling a grown man – and this is when we still polished our boots. ‘Dude, you gotta put polish on those boots.’ They expect you to spit-shine your boots, put on a clean uniform. Make your bed. So, that’s when the old-school discipline, by a couple years, out the window. You’re writing up action reports. And I’m writing up this guy left and right, spending time in my room, writing him up and explaining to him, trying to tell him… still. And it wasn’t [just] him, it was a couple of guys. When we got called out on alerts, first thing I always say – make sure you’ve got water in your canteens. Well we’d get where we had to go, all of a sudden one of them’s crying, ‘I don’t have water.’ ‘Why don’t you have water?’ ‘I forgot.’ Still I’m dealing with this guy that didn’t want – you know, his room was always a mess. That’s one thing they still flipped out, out in the military – they want polished floors, nicely-made rooms. And it was getting old. Then he pulled a stunt on me – when I went to the first sergeant, first went to the platoon sergeant then the first sergeant. ‘Discipline him, discipline him.’ Their version of discipline was talk, not physical. He pulled a stunt where after chow was over with, we were heading for formation, started complaining – ‘I didn’t eat.’ ‘Why didn’t you eat?’ ‘Didn’t have time to eat.’ ‘What were you doing?’ Gave me this big him-haw story, I said, ‘You know, there’s that snack bar going toward the motorpool.’ ‘Are you refusing me to eat?’ ‘There’s the snack bar.’ And I left it at that. Someone else said, ‘There’s a snack bar on the way.’ They served hot dogs and chips and pastries. Later that day, he went to Chaplin, told Chaplin I refused to let him eat. He said, ‘He denied me – where I couldn’t eat at the mess hall, said I couldn’t.’ Well, then Chaplin listened to his story, got a hold of my first sergeant. First sarge is like.. by then, battalion commander found out, sergeant major found out. I got a phone call to go battalion, and my platoon sergeant was there, company commander there, and my first sergeant. ‘Why are you denying so-and-so to eat?’ I’d forgot all about [it.] Then, I said, ‘We were marching to the motorpool – he told me he didn’t eat,’ I said, ‘there’s the snack bar,’ we always stopped off at the snack bar. And no, mess hall was closing. And they said, ‘Would he have had time to eat at the mess hall?’ ‘No,’ cause you marched out at that time. And they said, ‘If he would’ve eaten, could he [have] caught you guys marching?’ I said, ‘No, we’d probably been at the motorpool by the time he caught us.’ Well, sergeant major was just going off on me and my first sarge, like, ‘yeah yeah yeah yeah,’ my platoon sergeant… didn’t ever getting after him and by then I was the last one. And I explained to these men that I was having problems with this guy. Only thing to do to this guy before the mess hall incident was court martial him, but that was out of my powers. I suggested it, have charges brought against him – for unbecoming a soldier. Well by the time all this thing with the mess hall and all this, I got written up. And… for not following through. But the reason why is how I was trained, for… over the years. Cause the NCOs I had from over the years were the Vietnam vets, couldn’t stop that war cause you didn’t eat. (2:07:18) Interviewer: “So is this moving you into a direction toward thinking it’s time to hang ‘em up?’ �Yeah. Cause my best friend was becoming a skilled craft ink-pen, which is a government inkpen, and a Webster’s Dictionary. And plus you know, getting everybody in line, that’s why I use the term heavily - babysitter. Well, I came home here to Michigan, my mother moved up here. And so I came home to visit her, and my mother met this waitress. And so a couple years [later], my mom was badgering me about this waitress. ‘You have to meet her!’ ‘Okay, whatever, just…’ So finally it was time to take leave, and the guys were going to gunnery, my roomie that got accepted [to] warrant officer school, he was gone, so… and feeling kinda bummed out, kicking a rock around, you could say. Still doing my duties. Then they stuck me in headquarters. And usually when you start copping attitudes they stick you in headquarters. But the headquarters was in charge of maintenance, so they stuck me upstairs. Then I got to wear my nice pressed fatigues, and spit-shined boots, feeling pretty good. And they said, ‘This is going to be your job. We want you to find parts.’ ‘What kind of parts?’ ‘Anything dealing from tanks, trucks, jeeps, anything.’ Cause it was headquarters’ job to make sure all the parts came in, and make sure everything got done at a certain time. Okay, fine. They put me at a desk, this lieutenant tossed me [a] United States Army phone book, of Europe. ‘Start finding parts.’ ‘Okay, what the hell.’ So my first duty station was Hanau, and actually it was also the Army junkyard of – every vehicle you can think of that’s been destroyed some way or another, collision or… But they needed truck parts. And called up Hanau maintenance, you know, explained to them what I need, ‘Well you gotta try this Corps because they’re running the junkyard, call them,’ and all a sudden, ‘Yep, we got those parts and all this.’ Went to the major that was running headquarters, told him, ‘Fine, how long’s it going to take you get down there? Sign out your deuce and a half.’ Gotta go back to Hanau, which … completely direction. Got the parts, brought back, all a sudden, ‘Can you find these parts?’ ‘Okay,’ called up. And it was nothing like … ‘I’ll trade you for … rows …’ cause believe it or not we had to pay for these parts. So then I knew about Mainz, Mainz was the civilian repair. And I got to know them fairly well while I was in headquarters. So we had to get parts from them, but we had to purchase the parts, even though it was going to U.S. military equipment. So that was going back and forth, Hanau, then we dealt with German contractors. I went to John Deere and I went to Volvo, carrying jacks and all these. And getting parts, that’s how I finished out my last year. I never touched a M1, had people come up to me, ‘How do you work— we got this problem, dadada,’ and they used to get mad at headquarters. I don’t know how many times I tried to make a great escape to the motorpool. All the sudden I hear on the window, cause headquarters [was] above the motorpool. I hear on the window, ‘Get back! Get back!’’ So I’m at a game, they’re start— they’re purposely walking back, slow. ‘Get your truck, we need these-‘ Okay. Then like I said it was becoming fine, cause also headquarters, when we’re out in the field, that’s how they’d go to the different mess halls and check out the food preparation so… the one lieutenant did so we went to the different mess halls out in the field, you know, got to eat already, soups and pastries. Then we had to pick up fresh produce from a German market. Which was fun, and then I seen a couple of guys again from – I worked with during that whole eighty-eight I had, they’re looking so tired, I’m looking so nice and fresh— we had showers, cause then when we had showers, if they brought out showers to you. Well in headquarters where we stayed there were showers. Living it up, honestly. And I got a medal for that job also, but getting back to my wife. (2:13:10) �My mom met my wife. And when I got home on leave, my mom handed me a piece of paper, ‘This is her phone number, don’t screw it up.’ ‘Alright.’ Well when you have a mother that’s hellbent – she wants [a] daughter-in-law and a grandchild. My wife already had a daughter from her previous guy, she was a little girl. So called up this – my wife, I said, ‘is Martha home?’ She goes, ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘I’m Dave, I’m Sharon’s son. Would you like to go out on a date?’ So I’m already figuring, I heard it in the conversation in my brain, ‘No that’s fine, that’s okay,’ and I remember telling her, ‘Thanks’ you know, figuring, she goes, ‘Yeah, I’ll be glad to go out on a date.’ Well by then my wife’s like, alright – her dating scene was zero, because she already had a little girl. And my wife came from a very.. a Catholic, Hispanic family. So she’s already in hot water because she had a child, but still, very strict Catholic and Hispanic. So I met my – then, [I’d] say new girlfriend, and we went out on a date. Couple dates. It was third day on my leave, I asked her to marry me. Where that came from… she looked me dead in the eye, she goes, ‘Are you sure?’ ‘Yeah! I’m sure.’ She said yes. Now, what was I thinking? It just [slipped out.] ‘Okay!’ Went back to my mom, and my mom’s like, ‘Oh, great,’ cause she loved Martha already, which is my wife’s name. And Martha’s daughter, Amanda, she was two at the time. So after I realized what I did, okay. But like I said, we still dated while I was home on leave, and right away people thought Martha and I were married cause of Amanda. And all the sudden those thirty days – pew, gone. Head back to Germany. Then things just.. wouldn’t click, it did not feel right. And we had a big inspection. So we still had to get all the guys together, get all their stuff together, make sure things – the same routine over and over and over. Then I heard, ‘Can’t find my tent!’ ‘How do you row this?’ ‘How do you pack this?’ ‘Why do we-‘ It was like, oh my god… in the process I was thinking about then, my fiancée, and her daughter. This isn’t fun no more. Honestly. Time [came] around to enlist. Eight years under my belt, twenty-seven years old. Still thinking of Martha. And Amanda, cause when I was home with Amanda, the two-year-old, damn she was fun! You could tell her to do something, she would do it! No question, or tell her find something? ‘I can’t find..’ God, this is fun! Like I said, people were already thinking we were married. Well I was still staying at my mom’s house, there was no staying at Martha’s house – like I said, her mom and dad, very Hispanic. ‘Better be a wedding ring on that finger before you stay in our house.’ I mean, I’m getting out, so I called her up, ‘Martha,’ I said, ‘I’m getting out.’ ‘When?’ ‘Well, I still have to talk to the reenlistment NCO,’ and they brought down the battalion reenlistment NCO. ‘I’m getting out.’ ‘Why, you got a career in the Army!’ And… said, ‘Go to Lima, Ohio, guarantee you’ll be hired in a tank plant.’ I’m done. That’s all I told him, ‘I’m done.’ I had sixty days of leave accumulated, that’s back then – reason why no one really went home, cause you still had to pay for your airline ticket, compared to today where they have free flights. (2:18:24) I saw all of Germany that I wanted to see. Dachau, and Munich, Berlin, got to go to East Berlin, which was very scary and unnerving. Cause being to me, was like walking into a black-andwhite movie. Still war-damaged. Interviewer: “And this is now like 1987 or something?’ �Pardon me? Interviewer: “This is still like 1987?” No, this was 1985. Interviewer: “Okay, so a little earlier, but not that much—” Before I went to Fort Polk. Interviewer: “Okay.” They were offering tours by then, go to East Berlin, there was forty of us. We had to take the troop train to go over there. Went through checkpoint Charlie, most of our uniform – all of our uniforms, we had to wear dress greens, everything from our ribbons, nametags, and our battalion insignias, and our patches had to be taken off. Here’s the rules. Don’t start no trouble, if you start trouble you’ll cause a war. Visit, go to a guesthouse, look around. Okay, we did that. Once we got through checkpoint Charlie and on their side, there was no color. I swear to god there was no color. Everybody looked depressed, they were so war-damaged. And we were told, ‘You’re gonna be spied on right away, there’s cameras around. They’re gonna be looking at you, please don’t do nothing stupid.’ So we went to the guesthouse, we’re all hungry and… the German that was running it, East German, she was glad to see us. One, she knew we had money, and we had exchanged our money for East German marks. But she knew we had money. And got into the place, and noticed there, still for the longest time, there’s still the same people sitting in there. And told that to the NCO that was in charge, he goes, ‘That’s KGB. So don’t talk about your job, if they ask you about your job, just tell ‘em you’re in the United States Army. Don’t tell ‘em you worked on dadada, you know, or poppin’ pimples. Don’t tell ‘em nothing, don’t tell ‘em what state you’re from.’ And they didn’t.. off the street somewhere, ‘You have a cigarette?’ They.. for American cigarettes were black marketed over there. But they would exchange you East German and Russian cigarettes. You ever heard this old slang, ‘A certain part of your body will get knocked to the floor,’ I’ll tell you once we’re done here, I did smoke a Russian cigarette. Remember Granny from Beverly Hillbillies, way she drank the moonshine, the smoke, and… aw. But we ended up having soup, drank beer, we walked around East Berlin, and they were still showing us war damage, very little rebuild from after the war. Then we saw Russian soldiers, they were around, but they knew we were Americans, but we were there for a day. Just walking around, just absorb— but everything just, we saw the Russian cars, saw the sickle and hammer everywhere. And still was able to see the Berlin Wall and if you’re on the west side you see nothing but graffiti along the west side. On the east side, grey concrete, and blocks. And barbed wires. And you saw the barbed wire where it was a gap, then another section of barbed wire, then the fence. There was mines, and you saw the gun towers. So when our time was up, went back through checkpoint Charlie, exchanged our marks, we all had McDonalds in Berlin. We had two days in Berlin, we partied. But then you always heard people complain about how much they hated the U.S., you saw it on the news at the time. ‘I hate the U.S.,’ especially when they started burning the flags. We used to say, if you hate it �that much, East Germany will take you in a heartbeat, Russia will take you, move there. You got it made! And cause if you spoke negative of the communist government, you’re put in prison. Or disappear for good, so when I heard Americans complaining, ‘Go to Russia!’ And said that one time when I was home, to a friend I went to high school with. ‘Go to Russia! What’s holding you here?’ ‘I’m not gonna go over there.’ ‘Go! They’ll welcome you with open arms.’ (2:24:15) Interviewer: “Alright, okay. So you, then that was a useful sidetrack there but it’s basically you, basically you’d seen Germany, you were done with that, you were done with the Army, so you go back home, so you have your sixty day’s leave, so you get to leave essentially early?” Exactly, early. Plus with cash. And so I out-processed and I got orders for Fort Dix, New Jersey. And so there [were] a lot of people at Fort Dix out-processing, which is a process [of] getting out of the military. And get all your paperwork filled in, then you’re cashing in your leave, and they’re counting out how much money you got and all this, which turned out to be a nice, some pocket money. You get one more physical, get your teeth cleaned, eyes examined, and everything. But you’re in such a hurry where… I want out. And they run you through, past the reenlisting NCO. ‘Still got a chance to stay in,’ and my biggest beef was the – I knew the warrant officer chance, that was my own fault for not jumping – but what still hurt was staff sergeant, the points, the freeze on the points. Still, there was no letting up on the points. And he said, well, the reenlistment officer or NCO at Fort Dix, told him my MOS, he’s looking through, he said, ‘Change your MOS.’ ‘To what?’ ‘Go to a combat, be combat.’ ‘A grunt?’ ‘Guarantee you’ll make your rank.’ He’s rambling off different MOSs, MOSs – now what I learnt in Germany? No. I was tired. I didn’t want to go to back through AIT again. I mean, I knew guys who got out of the military then came back in, and they were very fortunate to get into their MOS. No. So they put us all on the bus, we had our papers, and everything. We were free. Didn’t look back, get to the airport in Jersey, there was another reenlistment NCO there – for all of the branches. Climbs up on the bus, ‘is this the Army bus?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘Who wants to reenlist, who wants to stay in?’ He’d come up to me, ‘I know you want to stay in.’ ‘Sit on your— NO. No.’ Already in civilian clothing, nope, nope. Cause I was tired. Not… I was physically, emotionally drained. Cause the fun was gone, I know being in the military’s not supposed to be fun, but… when you have to watch out for other people, ensuring they do things, when you have somebody commit suicide and you know, you saw the training accidents that were going on… but there was my wife. And a little girl. So got out, got out in May. Then we, my wife and I, well, we always include our daughter, got married [on] September 7th, 1988. Got a handshake from Fort Dix, New Jersey, ‘Good luck!’ That was it, good luck. (2:28:22) Interviewer: “And then did you go work for General Dynamics or what did you do after that?” �No. Cause had some money left over, I frogged around in Holland, we got married, started an instant family with [a] little girl. And after a while I had to get a job cause money didn’t last long, learning to live with a little girl in the house, that’s a different animal. I learnt how to shut bathroom doors. There was no bathroom doors in the barracks, especially in the latrine. So when you got a little girl [who’d] be bopping around through, ‘Dad’s at the bathroom door!’ ‘What are you doing Dad?’ ‘I’m urinating.’ ‘What is that Dad?’ And now I’m shouting, (laughter) and I was still a clean fanatic. Bathroom and all it, couldn’t get used to after she’s brushing her teeth, spitting in the sink, that was a no-no in.. especially in the latrines, you’d clean up after yourself. Finally my wife said, ‘She’s a little girl, a three-year-old little girl, she’s not a private.’ Cause I was still in that military mindset, everything had to be set. So I got a job, busting down truck tires. I had a tire shop, I knew how to do that already and… these guys… I was still disciplined military for work, get it done now. Do it right the first time, get it done. Then we can play later, first [time] working with civilians. They moaned, they groaned, they cried, and I’m thinking of the days working on those tanks in wintertime in Germany, didn’t get to complain. Your best friend in the wintertime, trying to unlock a vehicle, is a cigarette lighter to thaw out that lighter. These guys were complaining here in Michigan, being cold, had to work out in the cold. I remember helping busting down track down in snow, reattaching track, pulling barrels off.. and just, then the drug use. If there was overtime they would complain about overtime. We were on call 24/7 you could say, in the military. And I discovered I hate working with civilians. Then also, I’m this happy guy with [a] handful of medals. And certificates, I mean medals and certificates. Went to my father-in-law, said, ‘Why don’t you go to the, join the VFW? There should be other military people you know, guys you could talk to – you know, tell lies and all that.’ Went to the local VWF, told ‘em I’d like to join. Right away, that post commander said, ‘What years were you in?’ I told him, ‘Were you in a war?’ ‘Yeah, the Cold War?’ ‘Did you fire a shot?’ ‘At a enemy, no?’ ‘You can’t join.’ ‘What?’ ‘I did eight years!’ ‘That’s great, that’s nice, you can’t join. Cause you were not in a conflict.’ The Cold War was not considered a conflict. Now more than likely the post commander was a Vietnam vet, I respect that. You know, ate the same food he ate. (2:32:44) Interviewer: “It is Legion versus VWF, American Legion if you’re in military.” Same thing. Interviewer: “Well the Legion would take you, wouldn’t they?” Nope. Interviewer: “Really?” Nope. Cause American Legion is a foreign war. Now they said, ‘You can join auxiliary but you gotta pay.’ Auxiliary? I can’t go stand at that bar and shoot the breeze with… cause a lot of those Vietnam vets, either once they got out of Vietnam they went home or if they still had time on their – they went to Germany or Korea, or Japan. And when you’re told, ‘No, you can’t join.’ �And I had these medals and the certificates, and you had these Vietnam veterans, fifteen months at the most in the country, twelve months, might as well say I did six years. And so, when— so I told my wife, my wife knew I was… and so I kinda put it on the back show for years, and when Memorial Day rolled around, I… Veterans’ Day, not going to participate in nothing. And when my kids were going through school they always say, ‘Hey, have the veterans stand up!’ I would sit down. Cause, all because I [was] not good enough to join the VFW and the American Legion. And the thing was, I never ran across a Cold War veteran in Holland. And I guess they’re like me, just kinda low-profile. Then when 9/11 happened, and then all the sudden that patriotic feeling hits you in the gut and all that, and well even with the first Desert Storm… and I did receive letters, I got a notification from the local recruiter office, just be prepared, just in case. Well, nothing came out of that. Then when 9/11, and how they were welcoming back the troops. Like heroes. And you know, they get the free phone cards, free flights and all this, I’m like, ‘why didn’t all this happen with us?’ Then reality kicked in, what about the Vietnam guys? Of course World War II, but how they make a big ordeal then… where I lived in Holland, we’re next to Tulip City Airport. The jets, drive past there and all a sudden one of the jets [was] idling, and there was a kerosene smell [that] hit me. Cause on the M1 tanks, they were diesel. They had turbine engines, has that same exhaust smell. ‘The hell?’ First year my wife and I were married, being by Tulip City Airport, and National Guard helicopters used to land there. And they were Hueys, and I don’t know if you’ve ever been told, Huey – the Huey helicopter has a certain sound with its props. Once you hear it, you know it for life. Then Cobras, the same thing. I would run out the front door and look, tell my kids, ‘that’s a Huey UH-1, I rode in those,’ which I did. And no matter what the weather was, could’ve been cold as hell outside [in] Holland, I would run outside since I heard that Huey. Or I hear a Chinook. (2:37:02) But then ten years ago I tried to commit suicide. I… it was that fast-paced life from the military, Germany. So this kid, walking through our neighborhood, looked like that kid that took his own life. And my kids, my boys were playing Call of Duty. Then the smell of the exhaust, and seeing this kid. Already pulled the trigger, then my wife and kids flashed in my head. So I spent some quality time at the hospital, and then the V.A. got involved, and I had to go talk for a while and… but the things that I learnt while I was in the military, especially Germany, like the chemical issue, and radioactive fallout, and that stuff stays with you. And they didn’t tell you how to shut it off. Interviewer: “So you had your own version really, of PTSD?” Yeah. Interviewer: “And this came back to you at that moment when all those things came back together.” And then that’s what the V.A. diagnosed me with. But I kept telling them I didn’t fire a shot, and then they explained… so, and right now I have a son, my youngest – the one who used to make �fun of how I used to talk, I have a southern drawl – he’s in the Army. He’s been in for six years, and he’s going to reenlist. [Of] all places he’s stationed in Germany. And one of the training centers, so I was asking him all kind of questions, and of course, how many alerts, and all that stuff we went through. ‘We don’t do that stuff over here.’ ‘What?!’ ‘Not chemical?’ ‘No.’ ‘What’s an alert, Dad?’ Oh my god, he’s in Germany! Now he came from Fort Lewis, Washington. And they were very busy at Fort Lewis for being MPs. Now where he’s at, Hohenfels, they nicknamed it Mayberry – because it’s so slow, nothing. At Fort Lewis, speeding tickets, burglaries, assault, drugs, and he’s just sitting there going, ‘I’m at Mayberry.’ But still, you got that training area back there, ‘You guys ever go out [to] Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels?’ ‘No.’ ‘Okay.’ But I have to admit though, it’s the honest truth – I did grow up quite a bit. Now to this day, could I go – if I could go back to that small town where I came from? In a New York minute. Cause I know everything that was farms or either subdivisions, they redid a portion of the highway, I know the place I grew up on – gone. But that lifestyle, you know when you hear these old country songs, pickup trucks and all that? But the experience I learnt in the military? I would never trade that in. Interviewer: “Alright.” I mean, there was a lot of laughing and giggling, there was a lot of crying. There was a lot of anger. But the people I served with, I haven’t seen in thirty years. I still think of ‘em. Especially my very first roommates from Detroit. Still think of ‘em. And.. trying to hook up with these guys, you know the horror story after college, after you met your friends in college, you guys go your own way. Then they’re involved with their lives, you get things going in your life, then it’s… you know, but the memories are good. Interviewer: “Alright, well, the whole thing makes for a pretty remarkable story, even if you didn’t get shot at. And I’d like to close this out by just thanking you very much for taking the time to share the story today.” Well thank you very much for having me, I should’ve warned you though – being from the part of Southern Indiana, we do have a knack to yak. Interviewer: “Hey, well if we were still using tape I could say to you right now, tape is cheap. But anyway, thank you very much.” Well thank you very much. [END] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchererD2287V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Scherer, David Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11 Title A name given to the resource Scherer, David (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource David Scherer served in the U.S. Army from 1980 until 1988. He served as a sergeant in the 19th Maintenance Battalion, 302nd Maintenance Battalion, 705th Maintenance Battalion, and the 3rd Infantry Division. He was stationed primarily in Germany and the U.S. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f7fc2df550a341d3d6db8fb275039615.mp4 3ebbf5d53f408315da53f21f5bc3bdcf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2ad1d59ec00543af33f4d8d685b2a19c.pdf f9eaf97e586797fbf0b3496a3bf74f7e PDF Text Text Ryman, Donald Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee’s Name: Donald Ryman Length of Interview: 1:18:00 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman INTERVIEWER: We’re talking today with Don Ryman of Buchanan, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley Veterans History Project. Okay Don, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with: where and when you were born? Well I was born at Brady Lake, Ohio, April 1st 1928. My father at that time was going to Kent State University and he was given a life certificate as a teacher in Ohio, so they had rented this cottage at Brady Lake. Well my father had a degree in Mechanical Engineering from Carnage Tech but he liked to teach school. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Well, he changed jobs all the time. We moved 11 times until finally we were able to buy a home in East Canton, Ohio and we landed there, well, August 9th 1939. Well just a few weeks later World War II started and it wasn’t too long after that that we had Pearl Harbor and I lived through all those things. INTERVIEWER: Just kinda back up a little bit and fill some of this in. So did your father have teaching jobs all this time? Well, he… No, he didn’t, because the Depression. But he did have teaching jobs—he taught manual training and other stuff at Lewisville High School, but the Depression came along and one of the school board members said “Well I’m a carpenter, I can do manual training.” so my father lost his job, and my father during the 30s was in and out of employment. And that was a pretty rough time for us. Well, when World War II started the demand for engineers increased and so he was able to have a job. INTERVIEWER: Right. During World War II. (2:14) �Ryman, Donald INTERVIEWER: Right. Now you were kind of young at the time but do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? Oh, oh yes. (Ryman laughs) We had some friends from the First Christian Church in Canton and they came out to our house after church and they said “Oh, there’s been this attack at Dutch Harbor!” So we looked on the map and that’s in Alaska, they got it wrong! Well then later we found it was Pearl Harbor. INTERVIEWER: You know that Dutch Harbor got attacked too? Yes, and I didn’t know Pearl harbor any better than I knew Dutch Harbor to tell the truth. But then well the war started and I was thinking, while I was 13 years old, well I wasn’t that brave a guy I thought “Well maybe this will all be over” because by the time I’m old enough to go into the service. And that’s with Hiroshima, that’s what happened. INTERVIEWER: Alright, now during the war years how did the war kind of affect daily life? I mean, did you notice rationing or things like that? (Ryman laughs) We didn’t have gasoline, we couldn’t drive our car very much! Yeah well, they rationed shoes and food and everything—my mother had problems getting money, food for the table, and I’d only get maybe one new pair of shoes a year. Yeah we knew that. Well, there were these boys I knew in high school who were a little older who got in the service, and some of them died in the service. And that made an impression upon me. And I was pretty mad at the Germans because—you know people use the term ‘collaborate’. That irritates me. A collaborator is somebody who cooperates with the enemy and I never use that, and I don’t like it. There’s all other kind of synonyms are used for collaboration so that’s just one of the things I got out of the war. Well, the war kept going on and on and I was in high school and it just happened and I had skipped a grade, so my classmates were a year older. And in 1945 they turned 18 and they were going into the service. Well for one reason or another most of them joined the Navy; I did have one classmate who was involved, he was a couple years older, and they picked him up in December of 1944 and he got into some of the last combat in France and Germany. So there I was, well, I was 17 years old I was gonna turn 18 April 1st 1945, so what should I do? Well my parents they didn’t like war very well, they were pacifist, but their parents had been involved in the Civil War in the Shenandoah Valley and I guess both sides forged and took their food and things like that, they didn’t have much for war but their attitude was “Okay, when the draft war comes and gets ya, you will go.” In the meantime though I figured I’d get a year of college. (6:01) INTERVIEWER: Right. �Ryman, Donald So I started Ohio State University in June of 1945. INTERVIEWER: Okay, now how were you able to afford college at that point? Well, my father was employed. I worked and I did get a job in the summer in the factory in Canton, Union Metal, and I saved that money. My mother cleaned houses and my father worked and so we managed to scrape by although it was a near thing, but there was only $15 a month, $15 a quarter for tuition, $45 a month room and board, so I was able to scrape by. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah. You had more state support for universities in those days, a little bit cheaper. Well I think maybe so. Well, then I got there and these fellows from Cleveland said “Well, you know, if you took 15 hours, 20 hours a quarter you could graduate earlier.” And you don’t wanna go to Ohio State University law school. That’s at the bottom of the lake tech. You wanna go to one of the big (sounds like “bee-sir”) law schools like Columbia or Harvard or whatever. So I set my cap to go to Harvard Law School and I did; I would take 20 hours a quarter and graduated in 10 quarters, which was from Ohio State, which was just it, you know, that was at the end the 48th, in June of ‘48 I got admitted to Harvard Law School, I had a full tuition. I did well in school, I’m Phi Betta Kappa and so I was going well and with full tuition I had to have my room and board at Harvard Law School. Well we able to keep up with it for our first year but then I just had a 69, if I had a 70 I could have kept my scholarship, but I didn’t have it and so in the last two years I think I ended up owing Harvard $2300. Which in 1951 was quite a bit of money. I was driving used cars for quite a while then to pay off that debt. Well also the Korean War started in June of 1950 and I was just getting ready to go to my last year of Harvard Law School. Well immediately I had a physical exam notice and I passed it and then I had a draft notice. Well what do you do when you get a draft notice? You take your mother down the draft board. Well fortunately they had a policy of giving you a stay of induction to the end of the academic year if you were going to be back in school before the date of induction. Well I qualified on that so I managed to get through the year but I thought they would insist on going the infantry—well they liberalized that because the Navy and the Air Force and the Marines were complaining they were getting all these college boys out of stays of induction, so I got another draft notice! And I’ll tell ya that really impresses you, getting your draft notice from the President of the United States greeting. It’s just one greeting! So I was able to enlist in the Navy, so I went to San Diego and. (9:55) INTERVIEWER: Now, when you were in college back in Ohio State did they have ROTC there? �Ryman, Donald Oh yeah. I had to take two years of ROTC. INTERVIEWER: Okay. That didn’t give me that good an impression of the army either, to tell the truth. INTERVIEWER: Well what did you actually do in the ROTC training there? Well, we were, as I recall, we were taking classes, we were reading manuals, knowing things about that. In the Summer of ‘45 while the war was still going on we were doing a lot of marching. It seems to me we didn’t do so much marching from there, but I thought the quality of teaching in the quality of rating wasn’t up to as good as Ohio State University. I hadn’t been pulled down by pain [but] by point average, which kind of irritated me because the girls didn’t have something like that pulling down their point average but I didn’t think it mattered for me getting into Harvard Law School or getting the scholarship As a matter of fact that was the first year they had the Law School Admission Test and at that point they said “Well, we won’t pay any attention to it except if you’re on that—on the edge.” The school said “Okay well we’ll look at that, maybe look at that and decide [if] we’ll admit you.” But yeah, that, probably I learned some good stuff in the ROTC but I wasn’t that impressed with it. (11:30) INTERVIEWER: Right, okay. But now you’ve chosen the Navy, and then where and when do you report now for training? Well, I had enlisted in Canton, Ohio and they sent me over to Pittsburgh and a bunch of us they put us all in planes and flew us out to San Diego to the Naval Training Center there, and that’s where I spent about 16 weeks in boot training. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Now that was, I thought “Oh gee, the Navy’s kinda mediocre.” but really they had this thing set up, they were training us as enlisted men to do what we would be doing and they were thinking we’d be on the Destroyer. All their training at that time was set up [as] what you would do if you were on a Destroyer and you were dealing with 5 inch, 38 caliber guns. So I got that. I also had a deal that I could go to a service school and learn one of the ratings. So mine was I picked, for some reason, Personnel Man. A Personnel Man was a yeoman who worked for a personal records. In those days I thought “Oh Personnel things, that’s pretty good. Working in Personnel.” I changed my mind later but I did get my rating, but then I was sent to Newport, Rhode Island, I went to Naval OCS. Well it was called Naval School Officer Candidate, now during World War II they had midshipman school but this is a whole new thing in the Korean War and I was in the 6th class that generated from that. Well they did give us an absence commission and a regular �Ryman, Donald commission and we were eligible to succeed command, we could go all the way up to Chief of Naval Operations this was a regular line commitment and we have a star on our cuff. And you know over the years I’ve been kinda proud of going through that. (13:55) INTERVIEWER: So basically this is a regular commission as opposed to a Reserve Officer commission? Basically? Yeah that’s right. Well I was in the regular Navy as a matter of fact but enlisted. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. When you originally enlisted was there an expectation that you would train as an officer? In the academy? I didn’t know. INTERVIEWER: Okay. I didn’t know. INTERVIEWER: So the boot camp really just was the standard enlisted man’s bootcamp? Yes that’s right. And I did the Personnelmen School and on board the Destroyer I would be typing up personnel records. One of the things I did learn from it though was how to type. (Ryman laughs) And that was useful, that’s been useful ever since you know I still type on Microsoft Word or whatever it is. It’s useful. (14:47) INTERVIEWER: Okay, and in the boot camp was there a lot of spit and polish stuff and emphasis on discipline? Well, to an extent. As a matter of fact the fella—the officer in charge at San Diego at that time kinda was, he was known as a Martinet but oh okay to an extent we would get inspections where we’d have to have our shoes shined and stuff like that. I managed to get through that okay but the thing was I was right out of Harvard Law School and I really got good grades on the exam. I did the best in my whole , you know we know the kind of whole outfit of many companies and I got elected honorman of Company 705! (Ryman laughs) I saw somebody’s obituary recently that they put that down that they have an honorman. Well that had some significance but the reason I got it was because I think I’d done so well on the test. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And was it hard to adjust to the life in the Navy? �Ryman, Donald Oh yeah! Well, being in boot training was like being in a concentration camp, to walk any place away from the barracks you had to get a walking chip. Oh yeah that adjustment was hard but there I was, I had signed up for it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, okay. So basically you just kind of went with it and did what they told you? Oh yes, yeah, yes. I was smart enough to know that I didn’t have any alternative. (16:35) INTERVIEWER: Now were you one of the old guys there? Or were there a lot of other college boys? Yeah I guess I was! Well there were a couple guys from Pittsburgh who maybe were 20 years old but I was 23 and it was interesting a lot of these guys were 17 years old. And I just observed how they adjusted to the Navy because when they got out at 21 they would be younger than I was at 23. It was an interesting experience being in bootcamp, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay, alright, and then the officer training then in Newport, what did you actually do in that training? Well, we had mostly academic studies. We did a little bit of—we did a lot of marching in bootcamp but we had paved roads and the Marine Corps Recruit Depot was just a little way away from us and we’d see the dust coming up from those guys marching. They were marching on dusty roads. (Ryman laughs) Yeah we did a lot of marching but, well in OCS we did some marching. I was never a big guy for marching to tell the truth, but we were taking courses: Navigation, Operation, things we needed to do as Junior Officers on the Destroyer, as an officer of the deck. Or if we were assigned below we were an engineering officer what we would do. But that’s what we had, those courses, so we could become a good officer of the deck. Well one of the things I always had against McCain was that Indianapolis and I was paying his education and he was trying to be the last guy in his class so the President would give him his diploma. Now he’s wasting my money. I was trying to be the best I could, well I thought I’d better know this stuff if I went out there some place and I’m officer of the deck and I have to make quick decisions as to what to do to navigate the ship! Now this is not too long after the Missouri ran aground and I think there was an ensign on that and he didn’t follow the rule as to buoys: Red, Right, Returning. If you’re going into port you keep the red buoys to the right, well he didn’t pay attention to that and he ran the ship aground and the Navy was terribly embarrassed about all that. Well in those days we were getting books like Mr. Roberts and The Caine Mutiny, well you know they made Junior Officers look good and not bad but they didn’t encourage us to be very spit and polish as Junior Officers and I wasn’t, I probably should have been—you know I was trying to dumb, not to be more spit and polished but I did what I had to do. I know the smart �Ryman, Donald salute and all of that and keeping my uniform nice and those things I did, but one of the things I would get in trouble for was I wouldn’t, when I went to a new post, I wouldn’t go and introduce myself to the officer in command. That’s something I got I think from Mr. Roberts or The Caine Mutiny. Well that was kind of dumb they didn’t like that when I didn’t do that but you know generally I was trying to be a good officer like I was going to make a career of it, I really was. I did make statements like “Well I don’t care what’s in my fitness report.” you know I was going how long, I was gonna be there for 3 years and that was the end of it which was pretty stupid. But you know when I got my commission I was just 24 years old and I was supposed to be able with that commission to guide people who had been in the Navy almost their whole life. Quartermasters and all these enlisted men who had made a career after it and really, but I thought I saw better than others, that I had a certain position but I didn’t know as much as all these Petty Officers aboard the ship and we would work it out together. I think the Petty Officers respected me. I had a good relationship with them. (21:44) INTERVIEWER: Alright. So when do you finish training at Newport? Well in July, around July 30th. INTERVIEWER: What year? 1952. We got our commissions, now that was an interesting thing they hadn’t figured out if they had to discharge us from the regular Navy and we could have walked, and they told us we could walk. Well, if we walked, you know I had 1 year, the draft board #110 would have picked me up again you see. So and the next day we got sworn into the Navy Reserve as ensigns and went to our next post which for me for some reason was the Eighth Naval District. Those really surprised a lot of people because they were turning out these ensigns to go on board destroyers and larger ships. INTERVIEWER: Crew. Okay but you got—so where was the 8th Naval Headquarters? The district headquarters? It was in New Orleans. And they though “Gee, that’s great you’re gonna go to New Orleans they got jazz!” Well I didn’t like jazz I liked classical music and when I got to New Orleans and I found it was this very badly managed city, and I had grown up in the north Canton, Ohio, Cleveland, they originated the city manager I was used to well-managed communities, or Boston where I had been in Harvard Law School so I was disdainful I probably didn’t think “Well, okay, just enjoy New Orleans for what it is.” but I was judgmental. And I was right, when Katrina came along it finally caught up with them and they didn’t fix that levee and they got flooded! INTERVIEWER: Okay and so that’s something you’re looking at in 1952— �Ryman, Donald Yeah that’s right! INTERVIEWER: And then, you know, 57 years later it happens in New Orleans. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay now what was your actual job in New Orleans? Well I, they first had me in another job or some statistical… well as a security officer one of the things that I had was the Commander of the Headquarters of the Naval Guard. We had the guard and I was put in charge of that, that was my experience being a policeman it was very useful. All of a sudden I found out “Oh this isn’t such a good job, having to tell people they have to follow the rules.” and ever since I’ve had a better relation, I think, with policemen on account of that. Well we would make security inspections in the East Naval District and I would go along with them through Corpus Christi or other places, I remember making an inspection into the consolidated western steel at Orange, Texas. Well they had their fences and other stuff left from World War II. Well, I was supposed to make a report as to what they should do, well I could have said “Oh, well you gotta fix up those fences there and all of those things in case the North Koreans come invading Orange, Texas.” Not very likely. Well we had adopted the Navy fortunately, common sensically adopted the idea of perimeter security. Having security where you really needed it: where you had your classified information in safes and things like that. So on my report covered that and sometimes I would go with some of the more senior officers, I remember we went over to Corpus Christi and we went over to Kingsville, Texas which was right on the edge of the King Ranch which was very interesting. Well I remembered one day, and they have there at Kingsville, they have a place where they were training pilots. Well one of the them landed on the King Ranch, or crashed on the King Ranch, so we got to go on the King Ranch and see that so we were saying “What do you have to have in the way of security at Kingsville, Texas?” Well you didn’t have perimeter security, you had to protect any registered publications you had and you had to protect classified matter, and you had to be very careful about it and it’s set too with Hillary Clinton, I was really shocked at some of that but you know, she’d never been in the military. (27:03) INTERVIEWER: That’s okay the government servers were out of date and not very useful so they were cutting corners. Well, yeah. They perhaps, I can’t imagine treating classified matter in that way but that’s just my thing. I was very very much school in handling classified material, realizing that a lot of us overclassified. Whoever had it would make him look better if he classified it secretly than to be declassified and confidential. But nevertheless when it was classified secrets you handled it �Ryman, Donald accordingly. So really no excuse for not properly handling it, but that’s another subject. Well, I apparently did well at that, well after I got out of service I didn’t have quite enough promotion points for Lieutenant–for Senior Lieutenant so I took a Correspondence course. Well I took it in Naval Security and I got a 400 perfect score. So apparently I learned something about Naval security. INTERVIEWER: So about how long did you do the naval security thing? About two years. INTERVIEWER: Okay so that pretty much was your time in New Orleans, then. That’s right, that’s right. Well, New Orleans, at the Unitarian Church at coffee hour I met Martha, my wife. Around 65 years ago and we got married, so that’s one of the great things I got from New Orleans. (28:48) INTERVIEWER: Alright, now did you, doing the security stuff, deal with kind of criminal issues or people stealing things or what was that? Nope, no, no. I was. I was irritated that I wasn’t put in the legal department and I knew those lawyers who are in the legal department, well I wasn’t and they had me as Assistant Counsel but that didn’t go over very well with the general court-martial. And they did, I was on a general court-martial for a month, so I got that kind of experience but no, I wasn’t getting any legal experience while I was there. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Well then, but the deal was if you had shore duty you could get sea duty so they ordered me to the USS Coral Sea, which at that time was the newest carrier in the fleet and one of the three largest. And I was just ordered that well, in those days they didn’t have a Naval JAG, and court martials, the junior officers handled his trial and defense counsels, but the senior who had been senior captains who would be commanding officers of a carrier like the Coral Sea said to the Bureau of Naval Personnel “You’re gonna order somebody here who is a law school graduate and he’s a member of the bar and he will be a legal officer.” Well I didn’t realize that was the situation but when I got there I was legal officer. Well I had no experience navigating your ship but I was an unrestricted line officer so I had to stand those watches. So I stood watch as the Junior Officer of the deck, that’s private experience. INTERVIEWER: Okay back up here a little bit again. Okay, you… to go back to New Orleans about just, just life down there at the time, I mean it was a segregated society. �Ryman, Donald Oh yeah, yeah… that of course bothered me a lot. But we didn’t have a Civil Rights Act, in those days I was a political liberal and the Unitarian Church was integrated in New Orleans, and the Unitarians are working in the south or working to do what they could to get rid of, well they call it South Valley segregation but it was quite an experience riding on the bus to go to work and you had to sit cause the bus was segregated. There was a, actually there was a thing you’d put in the back of the seat because we’d go through black neighborhoods and then white neighborhoods so we’ve had a lot of black and a lot of white. And so we would switch that wooden… INTERVIEWER: Partition or bar or something? Partition! INTERVIEWER: Yeah. And you know I felt bad about putting that in the face of these blacks and saying well, well in effect saying, well you have to stay back there. No, I wasn’t, it didn’t make me love segregation. And I was there when Brown v. Board of Education was decided and oh boy there was, a lot of those people didn’t like it very well. People whom I thought should know better really. I mean, Ulysses S. Grant tried to enforced the 14th and 15th amendment and it’s unfortunate the Hays election where they, well as a Republican, they backed off their position and you know you had them until Lyndon Johnson put through a civil rights for blacks. You know, you could say stuff about Lyndon Johnson but that was a tremendous thing he did and maybe his motives were to right things but so what? INTERVIEWER: Okay now the military was in the process of desegregating when you were interviewing, Truman had started that back in ‘47. Yes, that’s right. Well in the Navy they weren’t going very fast, the blacks were stewards. They had black stewards and they had a lot of Filipino stewards. In my OCS class there were some blacks, there were some black officers but as I recall that was few and far between. INTERVIEWER: Now on the Coral Sea did they have black seamen or were the seamen all white? Yes they did. INTERVIEWER: Okay. �Ryman, Donald They had black seamen, matter of fact, in my boot company. They were gradually but I’m not sure what the Navy was doing then some of the rest of them on that. Well I had two captains on the Coral Sea, in those days those captains immediately became your admirals. The second one I got to know quite well, David McDonald, but he was from the south he was from Winder, Georgia and he had the usual southern view of it. He had… he didn’t like the black stewards he had two Filipino stewards, well but that ended up with some of my experience: we were in Gibraltar around Easter of 1955 and his two stewards got charged with beating up on the merchant. When they were coming back to the ship these merchants were lined up trying to sell ‘em stuff. Somebody did beat up on one of them and work ‘em over with a broken bottle and they were held there. Well, what were we gonna do? Well, I got word back I was supposed to stay ashore and try to do what I could for ‘em. In those days, you know, I was a young guy. Really I was supposed to cope with it, spring him loose and get him back to the ship. Well I hired two solicitors who were his little brothers there in Gibraltar. Now as a matter of fact they did say, with the Navy relief thing for enlisted men was to pay my expenses there. Now that was kind of interesting. The enlisted people wanted me to stay there. Anyway I got the word out I was supposed to stay there, it wasn’t direct from Captain McDonald and thinking back I should have said “Well, what does Captain McDonald, the CEO think?” Well I didn’t. Well they started— they did their research very well and they had something that went back to World War II and still goes on: the Status of Forces Act. Well under that act the Gibraltar authorities had no jurisdiction over these stewards. They were to be returned to their unit, the unit would do any kind of discipline that was taking place. Now this came up in the Iraqi thing when Obama said “Well, I can’t leave these people here cause we can’t get a Status of Forces agreement.” Well, you know, that’s political. I doubt that that’s true. (37:14) INTERVIEWER: But you knew what a Status of Forces Agreement was. But I can see how you need that because otherwise these US forces will be there and wanna get the justice of the peace or somebody want to get some business they’ll start accusing him of crimes and things like that. That went back to World War II in England. So we did get him loose, brought them back to the ship and I was a hero. And that started a good relationship with Captain McDonald; prior to that he had me and the repair officer for lunch. When he came aboard he was having some of the department heads for lunch and he was talking to me he said “You know, Ryman, I wanted to be a lawyer but there wasn’t that money in the family, but in those days they called a lawyer Colonel and he was respected in the community.” he said “Today I don’t know the lawyers, they're not as good, you know, when you applied to be a lawyer you had to be dishonest.” I said, “Captain” I said “If I can’t make an honest living as a lawyer I’ll do something else.” Well I think that cemented our relationship when I said that. And I had, you know I had other things with him I’m just trying to think… Well I was you know I had the legal officer and he was the convening authority and he was the one who was in charge of discipline, but that work I did, you know, he had captain’s mast that was written, and these guys well in the states �Ryman, Donald they’d all go—well a lot of ‘em would go AWOL—these dumb guys they go AWOL. What they wanted to get was a bad conduct discharge and kicked. They weren’t thinking about how that would affect them getting jobs or stuff later but overseas they’re getting, always, drunk and disorderly charges. So I was working with him on that. Oh, and of course I was standing these deck watches on the bridge too. Well I remember one night one of my classmates in class 6 were there and he was Officer of the deck and I was Junior Officer of the deck and that. You know the doctors and dentists they would immediately get a commission as lieutenant junior grade, we had to sweat through OCS and we might end up not getting any commission at all and we’d be ensigns, well, and we’d have to stay on as ensigns for a year and then we’d probably move to Lieutenant Junior grade. Well those guys would come up on the bridge because that was interesting: watching me, you know, being there going up and down the Mediterranean. Well one night the officer of the deck, my friend, I’m not gonna mention his name, he said “Well, you know, let’s have a mail buoy.” and he said to the dentist, “They’re gonna drop a mail buoy in the Mediterranean and we need somebody out, we need a lookout on the end of the flight deck to see where this landed.” Well of course mail buoys are like—there wasn’t any such thing. INTERVIEWER: Snipe hunting. Skyhook’s another thing. You know, I wasn’t entirely sure I was kinda a naive, young guy so I helped officer deck we fitted him up with a .45 pistol and he went out on the end of the flight deck to look for it. Well the lookouts and other people on the bridge knew all about it and they were kind of buzzing about it, Captain was in his at sea cabin and he heard the buzzing, so he got up and got on the rigs and somebody pointed to the dentist on the end of the flight deck. Well, he wasn’t a profane man, but he said “Well I’ll be a god damned son of a bitch, get that guy back up here before he kills himself!” which we did. That was quite an incident, but you know of course he could’ve put both of us back but I was a legal officer, maybe that helped me. But that was quite an incident. But Captain McDonald was a very skilled officer, we would refuel destroyers that came up against the ship and then you have to fuel them. Well that was kind of a tricky thing, you had the hose and you could separate that hose if you didn’t navigate well. Well with Captain McDonald on the bridge, well one of my friends who was a Supply Officer talked to him about it. He said “Well, when I was in Indianapolis I got the floor for navigation.” He was very good at navigating ships. Well that was interesting. Well he showed us one morning while I was there, with the same—it just happened—I was Junior Officer of the deck with the same guy from the other time and the Admiral changed the screen. On the screen determined your location but you had to give orders to the helm and so that you would be in the right position. Well, Lieutenant Junior—the guy that was officer of deck—had gotten the props. He was trying to use something we had and the maneuvering board to figure it out and the Captain came on the bridge and it was just chaos. Ships bow to stern and they were all over the place, Destroyers, aircraft carriers, we usually had another aircraft carrier with us. Well, McDonald said, he said, “Throw away that maneuvering board! Tell me where you wanna go and I’ll get you there.” and so the �Ryman, Donald Lieutenant Junior gave him what position we had and in, it seemed to me like about a minute, he had everybody on our station. I was really impressed. Well, see we had a maneuvering board thing we learned in OCS and we’d figure it out on that, well that’d take a little time particularly for us inexperienced guys. But I was very impressed with that and he was a great guy, when I came to Park Equipment Company I had two years of practice with Smith & Schnacke in Dayton plus the time I had on the Coral Sea. Well I wanted to be getting a minute in Michigan on motion—I had three years though, so I had to count the time on the Coral Sea. Well I wrote the then Admiral, John, and I wrote down well I said “Admiral, I have this letter here. I’ve written it describing what I did on the Coral Sea and really with the law practice I was the only lawyer on there, and I was doing it for better or for worse, including the guys who’d come up with their own personal problems and that was part of my job.” So I sent it to him and he signed a letter, he said “Well, that’s accurate enough.” I signed it and sent it to the Board of Law of Examiners and they didn’t accept it. I had to take the Michigan BAR exam, I was 8 years out of law school on account of that. Well I passed but he did that for me. He was just super person, you know some of the retrained officers from World War II they weren’t that great but he was, in all respects he was very good. He didn’t put on a lot of airs, you know, “I am the 4 striper Captain vs. Lieutenant Junior” you know. So I kept in touch with him for quite awhile after that and eventually he became Chief of Naval Operations. The top guy in the Navy. (46:53) INTERVIEWER: Now I want to wind your story back a ways cause you started getting into things on the Coral Sea and one of the things we didn’t talk about was how you actually got from New Orleans to the ship, cause you told me it took about three months. Well, oh, of course. Well we drove. I had some leave so we visited with my mother in Canton, my father had just died a couple years earlier, then we went to Culver, Indiana, she was from Culver and we were there for awhile. Then I took the train to Norfolk. Well, the Coral Sea, it was in the Mediterranean so they had to give me or arrange for some way. Well they put me on the Shewauken, which was a gasoline—it was a tanker. INTERVIEWER: An oiler. Gasoline and equivalent, they had aviation gasoline on it. So I got on that, well, I worked up a good relationship with the Captain on there. He was a good guy, I think he was a teacher, he got recalled he was a Lieutenant Commander. And turned out I was the oldest of the Junior Officers aboard—he liked to play Scrabble and I did too so we’d play Scrabble at night. Well, he had a guy, John Shilling Kanavan, a guy, an Irishman from Boston and he had these guys when we got into Norfolk they’d just leave. Well, unfortunately Kanavan came back so he had to tried him for AWOL. So he asked me if I would help him do that. Well, of course I’ve been in New Orleans and unknown General Court Martial so I did that, I served the President of the Court Martial and took care of all that for him and he really did appreciate that, and I didn’t have anything to do so �Ryman, Donald that was a great thing to do. So we, yeah we cross the Atlantic, I remember Hurricane Carol was coming up the east coast at that time and the communications officer was worrying we were gonna get caught in that. Fortunately we didn’t. Well I remember one night we were crossing the Atlantic and, oh god I suppose we were going 20 knots—at 22 miles per house and this ship came up over the horizon. It was an ocean liner; it was the Independence and here it was, we watched it go by and we thought of all of those people on that ship having drinks and all that stuff and we’re on this great vessel. (Ryman laughs) And of course from Josephus Daniels in World War I there was no liquor on naval vessels. (Laughs again.) So then there it went, speeding past us, they were probably doing about 20 knots or 25 knots, 30 knots. 30 knots is probably not the top that the Coral Sea could do; 30-31 and it’s 35 miles an hour for a thousand foot vessel in the Mediterranean, that was quite a lot. So I ended up at Cannes and switched over to the Coral Sea. (50:24) INTERVIEWER: Okay and now describe the Coral Sea a little bit for people not familiar with aircraft carriers, just size or what it's like to live on it. Well it was roughly a thousand feet long, on an aircraft carrier of course on top of it is a flight deck and underneath it is the hanger deck where you have the planes, where you have the planes when usually you’re not operating. You might have some of them on the hanger that you’ve tied down and I remember the legal office was on the port side up under the flight deck. So that was okay but it was, you know we had to go up and down some ladders to get where we wanted to go and if we wanted to get to the bridge of course, you see on the starboard side was the island with the bridge at the top. The navigating bridge was at the top, underneath it was the Admiral's bridge, we carried an Admiral on the bridge. His name was Crruise, Admiral Cruise, he was Commander of Carrier Division 6 and he had his bridge lost but we were up there on the top and navigating and, you know, arranging for the dentist to go down and lookout for the mailbuoys so. And that was about 13 flights to get up there. Well I remember the sad story there was one officer, he was a Lieutenant and he was what you called a Mustang, he had enlisted and he got promoted and became an officer. He was racing up those stairs one day after I left and he had a heart attack and died. You gotta be in good physical shape to do that. And I guess it’s still true. I don’t think they have elevators up to those things; they did have an elevator for the pilots for one flight up into the ready room as I recall, so yeah well, okay. Then we would be there on the bridge and the flight deck was filled with these planes, these guys in different colored uniforms were playing pushers, I mean we’d be watching them take off and landing, very interesting. Well at night time they’d get those things on the bridge and they’d be running up the engines, those things are screaming, and with that I got 20% hearing loss (chuckles) which I’m being paid for finally, now that I’m DA. Oh! It was, you know it was really good to be an unrestricted line officer, these days the legal officers and the jag, well they’re below deck all the time. They’re kinda like the dentist, they wanna get above deck on the flight deck and on the bridge and watch what’s going on! Ah man, I suppose when they go in there Lieutenant Junior grade they’re staff �Ryman, Donald officers. Well, perhaps that’s the best way to run it but I got the chance to be a line officer and actually I’d be in a position where I was helping in navigation of the ship. If I’d been there long enough you see I would have qualified for Officer of the Deck and here you have these guys, 25 years old, in charge of this thousand feet long ship going up and down the Mediterranean. The Navy set it up that way and it worked then, I’m remembering they were having some trouble with collisions out in the Pacific and I never could understand that but it could. Well they said the Officers of the Deck that hit that weren’t properly trained; well we just had 16 weeks of OCS so it weren’t ours. INTERVIEWER: So you were talking about that incident with your captain coming in and correcting everything that was kind of a mess. (55:23) Yeah, right! INTERVIEWER: And so if that goes on a little bit longer maybe somebody hit somebody. Well yeah, right right, yeah. But John… yeah. Could’ve been bad, well everybody had turned off their engines when and they were just they weren’t moving. INTERVIEWER: Okay. But still… yeah that’s kinda tricky. Well those submarines, the destroyer commander is usually Lieutenant Commander or Commander. They prided themselves on their ability to control those ships, so did everybody down to the ensigns on the bridge, so that was fortunate but you know some other Annapolis graduate who hadn’t got the sword might have gotten into trouble in that situation. INTERVIEWER: Alright, now during the year when you’re with the Coral Sea was the whole time spent in the Mediterranean or did you come back to the states at some point? Oh no we came back to the states, we came after December. And Martha had rented a house in Oceanside and so I was out trying to 9-to-5 because they took the Coral Sea into the Naval Shipyard at Portsmouth and they had it in there, and they were working on it, so I drive to work every day in my 1947 Studebaker Commander. Oh god that was a nice car. And so we were there until March and our first daughter was born February 2nd, which was about two days after the government declared the Korean War over based on an armistice which still holds today. No, I was stateside and then we left in April—March? You know, March of ‘55 and I was slated to get out I think July and I did. I asked to go back by ship. Well the captain thought, you know, he was a pilot himself. I think he thought a little less of me that I wasn’t flying. Well… I left Martha and the baby in the US and there was a consolation flight from Norfolk to Portland, Oregon that was �Ryman, Donald lost and this one Chief Petty Officer lost his whole family on that. So I’m just figuring realized I didn’t wanna try flying on the consolation across the Atlantic. So they put me on a ship that was the Everglades that was a Destroyer tender. Well most people don’t know what that is—well they had all kinds of stuff aboard there. They come up alongside the destroyer and they fix up their motors and I know one guy who was a Destroyer tender, all he did was work on the night covers, things like that. Well I was on that and we traveled and that was interesting in one respect, we got down by Cape Cod—now this was in July of ‘55—and we had fog all around us. It blotted out the radar. That was the early radar days, one of the things of Junior Officer of the Deck is to watch that radar and see who is close to us so we wouldn’t run into them. It is important. Well it blocked out! It just got all white so they stopped the ship and put on the foghorns there. That’s the best they could do. Does that interest you? Well about a year later a pastor vessel called the Andrea Dorea going through the same place and I thought he’s gonna make it into New York regardless; well unfortunately the Stockholm was there too, I think how that crash happened. Kinda interesting. INTERVIEWER: Now when you were in the Mediterranean what ports did you stop at? Well that was the nice thing about it. Barcelona once here, Lisbon, Athens, oh… God. INTERVIEWER: Well you went to Gibraltar. Oh there’s real good duty in that respect. I had good duty with the Navy, they have to say, well Beirut and Lebanon! Beirut at that time was kind of the Paris of the mid-east, nice place. And something else I had: I was appointed in each port as a foreign claims commission. That was an officer who had the authority to to pay up to two hundred and fifty dollars in damage to somebody that sailors had damaged their property, I remember that these guys would get drunk and break up a taximeter and I remember one case these guys were skylarking around and one guy threw the other guy’s sailor cap up on awning. Well the other guy climbed up on the awning to get it and broke the awning. So we paid for a new awning, that sort of thing. Well, everybody envied that duty because I could get a hotel room like in Lisbon or other places and, you know I would have to hang around the shortage role headquarters but I did that, yeah. I did that several times in various ports. I kinda got to like Lisbon, well there were just wonderful restaurants there and you could get the local cuisine. Well I remember this guy, I think he had been in my class he was…I don’t know, he was a Bosun, he did the Bosun’s mate training but I was standing watches with him and he says “Geeze, I don’t like it here I can’t get a hamburger” and you know “I can’t get a hamburger and a malted milk” and I thought “My god you’re gonna spend the rest of your life in Pittsburgh! You have a chance to go into all of these restaurants.” Well I guess he missed out on that, I didn’t. (1:02:16) INTERVIEWER: Okay, well this tape is about up. (Screen fades to black as tape changes) �Ryman, Donald I suppose sooner or later I’ll have to get into the thing. INTERVIEWER: Alright, okay so let’s see we were kind of closing out your stories about service time on the Coral Sea, we had been talking some—I guess the last thing we had been talking about was how one of your fellow officers wasn’t interested in actually the local cuisines (Ryman agrees) in the port, so you know they didn’t quite get that. Now you were talking a little bit about Beirut. Beirut was an area that in certain periods of the 50’s had a lot of political trouble, I think ‘58 or so. But when you were there in ‘55 things were quiet? Well, yeah. Of course we didn’t get into local politics but not too much, I do remember an incident in Beirut. We came in there November 11th, 1954. Well, the Coral S… they didn’t have a slip or place where we could—they didn’t have a port we could get into with our big ship, so we had to anchor out. But the destroyers came in and right into the slips. Well, one of the destroyers, the guys got off and they went immediately to the various houses of ill-repute. Well we already had a foreign claim when I got on shore—what the story was, there was a sailor— yeah it was a sailor in one of ‘em—and they set the shore patrol. The houses of ill-repute were off limits. Well, the shore patrol guy was knocking on the front door so this sailor went running out the back door, but one of the pimps was standing there and he stepped on his leg and broke it. Well so, there was a claim for the broken leg. Well… I went out to the hospital to visit this man who had a broken leg; well, he was a Palestinian. I didn’t know much about Palestinians and Israel and everything but he claimed to be displaced by Israelis. Now, I don’t wanna get into that kind of politics, well there was this woman sitting there in this beautiful, nice red satin dress, well she was a man. So we had this thing “Well, what are you gonna do for this guy, he’s got a broken leg.” Well, they were gonna check and see if he had rickets. Maybe they could have operated and fused the leg but it turned out he had rickets and so they sent him off some place and I guess the US caused it, the US paid for it—well, to have the bone knit but he had a stiff leg. It didn’t end up very nicely. By that time I was long gone but that was one of my foreign claims, Beirut. Well I remember Lieutenant Junior Grade Jack Drabkin, he was a Harvard graduate. He had gotten a supply commission and he was limited in what he could do, he had the wardroom. He had the officer’s mess in those days but he got hold of a guy, a driver at the embassy, and we drive around in his truck and he had a limo, well he had a Chevy Suburban as a matter of fact! And we’d go around to these places where they had belly dancing in Beirut and that was quite a skilled thing, belly dancing, it was kind of interesting. You know I majored in a little history in the last thing, I was trying get in as much of the local culture as I could and so was Murray, I think he majored in history too before I went to law school. But that was an interesting thing in Beirut. And that was all peaceful, if there was some kind of problem or some kind of bad thing in the government of Lebanon at that time, we didn’t know about it. (1:07:07) �Ryman, Donald INTERVIEWER: Yeah, it was a major crisis in ‘58, but that was well after you were gone. Yeah, right, yeah yeah. That’s four years later. INTERVIEWER: Now when you think about the time that you spent on board the carrier, are there other particular incidents that stand out in your memory that you haven’t talked about yet? Lemme think… Oh I remember, the engineering officer on the Coral Sea, Commander Carlton, he was a senior shore patrol officer of the Mediterranean, a very interesting guy and I worked with him all the time as a legal officer on the biggest or one of the biggest ships. I remember him quite well. I remember one afternoon at Genoa and I was talking to him and he said “I was over here on the Italian lines, I was looking at some of their ships.” he said they ran a real interesting one, the Andrea Dora. (Ryman laughs) so that was kinda interesting. Well I remember at Athens he and I went over to, well to the port of Athens and I’m trying to remember the name— INTERVIEWER: It’s Piraeus. What? INTERVIEWER: The Piraeus? Yeah, the Piraeus! And we had breakfast well that wasn’t too good in the long run I got a greek thing from that, but he bought my lunch. And I was the foreign claims commission in Athens and we, I don’t recall that we have any there. Maybe the pimps got out of our way. INTERVIEWER: Yup. (Ryman laughs) Well, at Athens I’m trying to think… we were anchored pretty close in to Piraeus so it wasn’t quite the same situation as in Lebanon. INTERVIEWER: Well, you’ll think of things after we’re done because that’s how it works. Yeah, I know! I know. INTERVIEWER: So basically you have, so what you had done was you had gone originally to join the Coral Sea and come back to the states, stayed there, and then you’d gone back with them again and then you sailed back the second time and that was the fog off Cape Cod and on the way home. �Ryman, Donald Yeah, well then that was on the Everglades. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah, and that was sort of on the way home, so then you basically were turned back to Norfolk at that point and do you get discharged from there? Well, yeah. They spent—I spent a couple weeks doing physical exams to be sure I didn’t have any service related disability. INTERVIEWER: Right. (1:10:24) And then yeah they released me to inactive duty. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and then once you’re out, then what did you do? Well, I had to get back to Culver, Indiana where Martha was with our baby. And I went to the railroad and then to the Greyhound, and that was quite interesting. Greyhound had these buses that ran overnight and they ran from Norfolk to Chicago and they ran right through Culver, Indiana. Now the trains even in those days you had to change several times from Norfolk. The problem was getting to the train running east and west and well, you know, what’d they have? The Broadway Limited but that went through South Bend, you get the PennC trains but to get to those was kinda involved as I recall. Well so I just bought a bus ticket to Plymouth, Indiana, got off there, took off my uniform and that was the end of my service. I never put it on again. INTERVIEWER: Alright, and then how long before you got a job? Well, it didn’t take me too long. I had written to Harvard Law School about it. Well I had, what I was talking about being was they had a thing where they had recent graduates who advised the new students about things and I thought “Well maybe I’d like to do that.” Well, and I had worked for Professor McGuire and he gave me a good recommendation, and I wrote part of his case book as a matter of fact and he put in for me but I didn’t get that job. They supplied people and I hooked up with Smith & Schnacke in Dayton and that took just about a month, and then we moved to Dayton. Stayed there for two years and then we came here. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Alright and then how did you wind up leaving Dayton and coming up here? Were you looking for something better or what happened? Well… it wasn’t working out in Dayton for various reasons and so they said “Well, you probably oughta go some place else.” So one of the things I noticed was our big client was Mead Corporation and if Mead Corporation had a problem the President would go to the Senior Partner and tell him what the problem was and then he’d come to be, and he didn’t like to be cross- �Ryman, Donald examined. So I wouldn’t be quite sure of it, I didn’t think that maybe the traffic manager had the problem, a legal problem. So it would go up through the president of the company, the CEO of the company, through the Senior Partner and back down to me. I thought it made more sense if there was a lawyer working in Mead who could talk to the traffic manager. So I wrote to all kinds of Fortune 500 corporations and other people and said I was available and said I’d like to be a lawyer on their legal staff. Well one was Clark Equipment Company. Well I knew Clark, I’d worked in a factory in World War II and all these Clark forklifts were there. It was in Buchanan, Michigan. Well, gee, I thought, Buchanan, Michigan… Gee, I didn’t realize that. The truck said Battle Creek but actually this is where Clark, for all practical purposes, started. And until about 1990 it was a nerve center of Clark. So I wrote here and heard back from the General Counsel who wrote and said he’d like to meet me, and so I came and met him in Niles and he drove me over to Buchanan. That’s one of the funniest things. I just got in this town and it seemed to have magic, and going up the front street here was kinda like the garden district in New Orleans. So, you know, I’ve got the Buchanan disease and stayed here the rest of my legal career. (1:15:16) INTERVIEWER: Alright. And now to think back to the time that you spent in the Navy what do you think you took out of that or how did that affect you? Well… I think I learned leadership, although as a lawyer in park I wasn’t really leading, but on the other hand that’s, someone on the general counsel said “Legal and business decisions are inextricably co-mingled.” So I was able to understand what a businessman was trying to achieve, but one of the things I was very careful not to get involved in was business decisions, because you don’t want to. You won’t be objective about it. It’s like the old saying a man that serves as his own lawyer is a fool for a crime, so I did that. I had a great time, I had a lot of fun, I at one time had said there’s been an amusement tax and it’s taking up my whole pension. Yeah, I had a great time being—well here we have Fortune 500 corporations and later up to 154 in a Fortune 500 list at one time, Clark Equipment Company was. But I could walk to work and those I didn’t want much more. I had a 51 Chevrolet so I don’t know, but I didn’t have to tie up the car and I could walk to work and all the time I was here as a lawyer. Well we got a guy out at General Motors who didn’t like it, he wanted to be on that 10th floor or something, he could only be on the 3rd floor in Buchanan because the zoning code doesn’t allow you to have higher than 3 floors, so he took us to South Bend and actually what happened then was the takeover guys noticed this. They’d look at us, but they’d say “Oh, well they’re in Buchanan, Michigan. Little town, if we come try to take them over the people will come at us with pitch forks.” and we would have! But, so the company got taken over but that’s after I’d retired, I’d hit retirement age. It was a very interesting company. INTERVIEWER: Alright. Okay. well you’ve got a pretty good story and certainly an unusual one. �Ryman, Donald Oh yeah, well, thank you. INTERVIEWER: So I’d just like to thank you very much for sharing it with me. Oh yeah, yeah yeah, I’m happy to do it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RymanD2307V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ryman, Donald F. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-05 Title A name given to the resource Ryman, Donald (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Donald Ryman was born on April 1, 1928 in Brady Lake, Ohio, into a very mobile family, moving eleven times before settling into East Canton in 1939. Ryman’s father pursued a degree in education in addition to his degree in mechanical engineering, and with the outbreak of the Second World War, his father was finally able to get a job as a mechanical engineer. His mother struggled to acquire food for the family and there was little fuel to use for their car due to stringent wartime rationing. After graduating high school, he attended Ohio State University in June of 1945 with the expectation that he might be drafted into the war. He briefly joined the university’s Army Reserve Officer Training Corps and Ryman graduated from Ohio State in 1948, moving on to Harvard Law School where he encountered financial difficulty and accumulated some debt with the university. In June of 1950, he received several draft notices before enlisting in the Navy. Ryman was then flown to San Francisco, California, for Navy Boot Camp and was later transferred to Newport, Rhode Island, for Navy Officer Candidate School. Ryman finished his training at Newport in July of 1952, was sworn into the Navy Reserves, and was transferred to the Eighth Naval District, headquartered in New Orleans. He was frustrated that New Orleans seemed to be so poorly managed, and by the persistent racial segregation of the South as well as lingering racism in the Navy. Ryman was then assigned to a gasoline tanker vessel out of Norfolk, Virginia, on which he participated in routine deck watches on the bridge and helped refuel destroyers. He was then transferred to the USS Coral Sea, operating primarily in the Mediterranean. After serving aboard the Coral Sea twice in the Mediterranean, Ryman was shipped home on the USS Everglades to Norfolk where he was officially discharged. He then returned to Culver, Indiana, where his wife and baby were living. He eventually moved his family to Dayton, Ohio, and later up to Buchanan, Michigan, where he acquired a job on the legal team of Clark Equipment Company. Reflecting upon his service in the Navy, Ryman held his later experiences with Clark’s legal team in high regard since he appreciated the fact that he could walk to work as well as the success of the business during his tenure. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ade9e132fa36898888710358135d8629.mp4 fd90bd5780920385eb90fde8c63b63c4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a2eaba9a6760e2b094cf59d2ed0f5522.pdf a9172b9d8f95408ed38b1c237b1b205d PDF Text Text Rowland, Daniel Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Iraq War Interviewee’s Name: Daniel Rowland Length of Interview: (1:09:57) Interviewed by: Koty Leroy Rollins Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “I’m here with Daniel Rowland from Comstock Park and the interviewer is Koty Leroy Rollins of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Alright Daniel let’s just jump into this, when were you born and where at?” Well I was born in Grand Rapids in 1975, July time frame, at least that’s what my parents told me, they could be wrong I don’t know. Interviewer: “You never know. So what was your early life like? What–” (00:57) Ah pretty mundane, I mean pretty common, went to school, grew up, had an older brother who liked to, you know be an older brother we’ll just leave it at that. Nothing too exciting. Interviewer: “Alright, when did you enlist and what led you to that choice?” My brother had enlisted in the Marine Corps and I’m like “Oh that’s cool.” Then I– The sad fact was I actually applied for an ROTC scholarship and got a full ride to North Carolina State University and my lack of discipline led me to drop out and enlist. Interviewer: “Okay, so you enlisted after spending how much time in college?” Three semesters, cause apparently if you go to college on the government’s dime and don’t finish, you owe them money, or you enlist. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “Sounds about right, did your brother like, tell you all these cool stories, did he prep you for boot camp or anything?” Nah, he only went in about a year and a half before me, I mean he told me things but in retrospect I think he was just messing with me. Interviewer: “What type of things did he tell you then?” Oh it’s not that hard, it’s fun and you know typical big brother taunting the little brother things as you follow his footsteps. That makes it not as enjoyable as one would think. Interviewer: “Okay, so what was boot camp like then were you prepared for it at all?” In general yeah I mean it’s not– Physically it wasn’t that hard but you know coming from three semesters in ROTC I kind of already knew the drill of stuff. (2:30) So this is gonna sound self aggrandizing to a certain extent but like I think it was about two weeks in they made me the guide for the platoon and I ended up doing that because I already knew a lot of the stuff like ranks and all that because like I said the three semester in ROTC kind of gave me a head start on everything that they teach you, common Marine Corps history, Navy ranks, Marine Corps ranks, how to march, of course that might of been nine years of marching band too but either way– I was a geek. Interviewer: “So you were pretty prepared.” For the general knowledge and physical aptitude but I’m sure as you know being a former Navy is– No matter how much you know being prepared is not as easy as it sounds especially when you’re the guide, somebody messes up you get punished. Interviewer: “And stepping back just a little bit one thing I forgot to ask, did you have any family history of military or were you and your brother like the first.” �Rowland, Daniel I had an uncle serve in Vietnam but he died there and I never knew him so I couldn’t say, and then my other uncle was in the Air Force for two years but he went to Germany, came home and he had some pretty weird stories but we won’t go there, Germans are weird apparently. Interviewer: “Yeah, so it was just you and your brother then for the most part?” Yeah from the immediate family, nobody– Yeah, nobody else I knew served, I know my dad tried but got 4Fed cause bad feet or something and then I know my grandpa tried and “We need you home!” World War II but nobody– Nobody seemed to be able to get in until me and my brother. Interviewer: “Fair enough, now when you say 4F you mean like medically.” Right, yeah between his eyes and his feet I guess they didn’t want him. Back then– They weren’t as accepting back then of medical– Of any little medical condition where nowadays anybody– Cause they can fix most things, here have some new shoes. (4:22) Interviewer: “So going back to the boot camp thing you said you were the guide, was that like the leader of the cadets or what was that?” Yeah, I don’t know what did they call it. Yeah it’s you’re the head recruit, I guess you could say “in charge” but you really weren’t, you were pretty much the top– You’re pretty much who the drill instructors told to get stuff done and who to delegate. Interviewer: “And you were the one that got in trouble when someone else messed up.” Oh yeah, there were mornings I would be up before the rest of the platoon getting thrashed because someone messed up during the night or something, I don’t know, I don’t remember. Interviewer: “When you say getting thrashed do you mean like PT or like–” �Rowland, Daniel Yeah, no they don’t– They were not allowed physical contact but they could make you run in place, do push ups, there were four exercises, funnel kicks, push ups, run in place, don’t remember the fourth one off the top of my head but basically you did it until your arms were jelly and you couldn’t do anything else. Interviewer: “And this was in ‘95?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay.” I’m sure they still kind of do– I mean it was the Marine Corps, you gotta be hard ass I guess would be the term nowadays. Interviewer: “So pretty much everything else other than that you were good at, you knew.” (5:35) I wouldn’t say “good at” but I knew enough to not have to, you know worry about it, how's that sound. Interviewer: “Did you have any issues with the other recruits, I know sometimes they don’t take–” Well being the guide yeah sometimes like you’d have the one they just couldn’t get anything right or was moving too slow and you either had to help them out or get trashed more, I was in pretty good shape when I got out of boot camp. Interviewer: “Alright so when– Once you graduated boot camp what did you move onto?” �Rowland, Daniel Marine combat training which is three weeks of just basic cause every Marine is a rifleman so we had to basically go somewhere and spend three weeks in the field and living in tents and walking through woods, nothing amazing. Interviewer: “Nothing fun happened there?” Well one time it rained so hard that we had to come back from out of the field, when we went back the next day finding all our gear in the mud was fun. Yeah it was out in California, oh joy oh joy.” Interviewer: “So it was out in California.” Yeah it was the one with flashlights, I think it was I don’t know. Interviewer: “So you– Where did you go to boot camp at?” (6:42) San Diego, I was a Hollywood Marine as they call it. Interviewer: “So you went all the way from Michigan to San Diego for boot camp?” Yep and I came home for ten days, went back out to Camp Pendleton for the combat training. Interviewer: “Alright, and where’d you go after that?” Went to North Carolina for my job training, which I was initially an administrative clerk, yay. I know right I got to learn how to type. Interviewer: “That’s fun.” And file things. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So nothing exciting happened there?” Well it was kind of fun, my brother was stationed at Camp Lejeune and when everybody else had to stay on the base when we got there I got to leave for the weekend and it really pissed people off because, you know reasons and then well I ended up meeting– I ended up getting married at a job training, I met a female Marine that was going to school as well, let’s just say that didn’t end well but I’ll just leave that at that. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” What if we’re gonna talk about it might as well just throw it all out there right? Interviewer: “Hey, it’s your story.” Then I drove cross country and went to Hawaii for three and a half years. (7:50) Interviewer: “Why did you have to drive cross country?” Well I bought– See that was one thing my brother was good for he was a tia– Traffic management office or whatever, he’s the guy that ships stuff around and when we graduated job training they’re like “You can only take like two sea bags with you.” And then I asked my brother and he’s like “Nah man you can ship whatever you want, car or whatever.” So I bought a car, drove across the country, had it shipped out of San Francisco and went to Hawaii cause I’m like– Cause you know how they are they want to tell all the new guys “Oh no you can’t do this or that.” I mean if I was gonna be there for three and a half years I’m gonna have some stuff. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” For some reason cars in Hawaii are way overpriced. Interviewer: “I can confirm that.” �Rowland, Daniel I assume it’s shipping costs. Interviewer: “That and just everything is expensive in Hawaii that’s just how it goes.” Oh yeah, it was expensive 20 years ago when I was there I can only imagine today. Interviewer: “So, where’d you get stationed at in Hawaii?” Camp Smith, it’s a little ho dunk base right above Pearl Harbor in a residential area, nice view though I’ll give them that. When you look down you can see Pearl Harbor Hickam Air Force Base which is right in the middle of Pearl Harbor, it’s pretty nice. There was like– It only had four barracks on the base and like ten houses, it was commander in chief’s Pacific headquarters and Marine force Pacific headquarters, it might have been 4 or 500 people stationed there. It was interesting and small, I don’t know it wasn’t too bad. (9:20) Interviewer: “And you did what there?” I was an administrative clerk, I worked in the force adjutant when I first got there doing– But before everything was electronic we got to actually file all the orders and stuff. So ooh that was fun, and then I worked down in the classified vault for a couple of years, then ended up in the security manager’s office doing background checks and all that fun stuff, cause you know somebody’s gotta do it. So a nice wide array of things, went to Korea a couple times for exercises, got to go to Seoul and Joseon and, you know, see other countries and have some fun. Interviewer: “And what time frame did you go to Korea?” ‘96, ‘97, they were only for like a month or two each time, it wasn’t– Just some little exercises to annoy the North Koreans I guess. Interviewer: “Were you on like ships there or were you–” �Rowland, Daniel No we’d fly over and then work in some office, in some base, I don’t remember. The one time we were in the Korean Marine Corps Base living in GP tents on their dirt soccer field in the middle of summer and it gets hot over there and to boot the plumbing doesn't take toilet paper well, yeah you’ve never been to Korea have you? Interviewer: “I’ve been but–” And when you wipe you throw it in the trash can next to the toilet and then they would take it out and burn it. Well we were right downwind from the burn pit, so needless to say that one of my times in Korea was not the most fun. Interviewer: “So were you feeling some animosity from the South Koreans or was this just all by…” No, that's just the way they did it, I mean they had space– Because their little headquarters was like on a hill so any flat land you could get was amazing, so we just happened to be right downwind from the burn pit. (11:07) Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.” Oh yeah cause we had to walk through the bulk of it on our way to chow so by the time you got there– It was a great dieting technique I guess, you didn’t have to feel the urge to eat. Interviewer: “So were you working like hand in hand with the South Koreans?” They were just joint exercises, I mean we were the command element so we didn’t actually go out and do stuff we were just doing like the fake information would come in and then we would process it and then disseminate down to lower command of guys actually doing stuff, so nothing amazing. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “And were you like sitting with generals and doing all this or were you just like sitting in a little tent typing on a thing.” Well I was representing the security manager so I basically was the guy running around shredding classified material, nothing too pressing. Yeah my job was not– It sounds all nice but it’s not as glamorous as one might think. Interviewer: “Were you like– Did you not enjoy this job? I’m assuming you didn’t sign up with the Marines to be a clerk.” When I signed up they gave me one of those job option packages that was air field service support, so like air traffic control or something, it was legal clerk or administrative clerk. So I’m like– I was fine with two of them but not the third and I’m sure you can guess which one I got because I’m like “Woah, hey legal clerk and air traffic controller that sounds kind of fun.” And based on my scores I’m like– Admin is like, out of three, the dumbest people go to admin and I don’t know why but whatever, I’m not gonna complain, needs of the Marine Corps. (12:43) Interviewer: “Fair enough.” So I got stuck there. Interviewer: “So your time in Hawaii was pretty uneventful?” Yeah for the most part, I went to school, I was there because, you know– Of course when I dropped out of college the first time you know my dad’s like “Oh you’re never gonna finish now!” So I had to prove him wrong cause I’m just that stubborn. Interviewer: “What did you get your degree in?” Associate’s in business and a bachelor’s in social work and then spent my last year, got divorced while I was there too, let’s just say as a single guy with a year left on the island I had some fun �Rowland, Daniel but we won’t go into that because this is a family program apparently and then I got out in– Went on a terminal leave in ‘98 and came home and got out, went to the IRR, individual ready reserve and hung out for a while. Interviewer: “Okay, and–” I’m just gonna roll into the next part I assume. Interviewer: “Yeah.” So employment was like I was trying to– I guess I think of that time that’s when they actually changed– In Michigan it was weird, you only needed a bachelor’s of social work to work in the field and then they changed it master’s degree and all that stuff so I’m like– Needless to say trying to get a job in the field I wanted wasn’t that great so during that time as a reserve Marine I could volunteer to do active duty every now and then. (14:05) I went a couple places just for like oh we need somebody here for a month or a month there so I dabbled around and then in 2001 there was an opportunity to go down to North Carolina for six months and I’m like “Okay, I’ll go down there.” So I signed up and they flew me down and needless to say you know in September stuff happened and at that time then we went over to– Well I didn’t go but the military went to Afghanistan and since I was there it was– I volunteered for six months and then since I was there when 9/11 happened they started calling up all the reserves like “Well while you’re here, here’s some orders to stay another year.” And then I was officially involuntarily recalled and for the next– Till 2004, every year I would get additional orders to stay another year, so I was basically involuntarily activated for two years. Interviewer: “And how did you feel about that, were you upset?” I was fine, it’s not like I had a job back home I’m like “Well hey” and yeah when I got there I was working at– I was originally working for the Marine reserve unit out of Lejeune and then I got moved up to the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force Command Element cause a guy I worked with in Hawaii he’s a colonel now and he’s like “Oh you’re here.” I’m like “Oh, how are you �Rowland, Daniel doing?” Cause as you know the military’s actually kind of small, especially the Marine Corps, so having worked in the security manager’s office in Hawaii he stuck me in the security manager’s office in Lejeune so– Because they were just starting the office so I’m like “Okay” and by that time I was a corporal and I basically got to set that up. So that was fun, learning– Basically doing my old job again which was kind of weird because as an administrative clerk you can work in pretty much any– You can work with any unit, every unit rated an administrative clerk, you know they say you do 30 years you don’t do the same job twice so but apparently I got stuck in the same job again, but you know it pays off in the end. Interviewer: “So when you were recalled– Or not recalled but when you went down to North Carolina for the six months was the to do administrative work or were you doing something else?” Well yeah I was– They were– They were just, from my understanding I don’t know for sure, they were– What was it called it was like the Marine augmentation command element, basically it’s where a bunch of reserve guys, like older higher ranking guys that are retired and were still reserve. (16:37) It’s like if the command element ever went to war these guys would get called up to fill in key positions back in the rear. So they were just setting up and they just needed people to come down and help them set up their infrastructure and stuff so I’m like “Oh, okay.” Six months, I’d be doing admin stuff no big deal, I needed a job, they needed Marines, I’ll just go and then like I said 9/11 happened and stuff just got real and you know I was cheap to call up because I was already there. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” And so, then what happened? I don’t know, that was 2001, 2002, then I was dumb and got married again in 2003. Yeah I got married in February of 2003, they’d just gone over to invade Iraq in December and my office sent a Marine who apparently doesn’t know how to jump, got injured getting off a helicopter and they’re like “Oh hey, you’re going over to replace him in deployment.” I’m like “Okay.” So after being married three weeks I got whisked away to Iraq for 2003 and I worked with the– Well I guess it’d be more commonly called Task Force Tarawa the �Rowland, Daniel 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade and when I got to them in March it was the Battle of Nasiriyah and I was tasked as the assistant security manager of the– Basically the tent where the general and all his command stuff were and to got over sea this little security element we had and all this other fun stuff– Oh yeah I was a sergeant by then too, and I would stay there for the next seven years, we’ll get into that later. Interviewer: “When you say stay there you mean stay a sergeant, not stay.” Right, yeah. Yeah not in Iraq, though I was there enough I should’ve bought a summer home. So yeah just to gloss my own ego more I was a meritorious sergeant yeah. Interviewer: “Oh okay.” That’s for the record, because I was such an outstanding jarhead. Interviewer: “Not astounding enough to be an E6 but–” (18:37) Oh no but they give E5 and unders away as like candy, like “Oh here, get promoted.” So I was over there and got in some– Because we were responsible for the bulk of the forces, the Army, and the 1st Marine Division, went up through Saudi and went north– West and then swung around to Baghdad, we were supposedly tasked with mop up operations, heading in right south of Baghdad and then swinging east. So we had all these little small towns and crap but Nasiriyah was the worst fighting of the invasion. I was not actually in the fight but we were right behind them, you know command element we basically tell everyone what to do and you could see all the crap coming back and all the casualties,this, that. I mean it’s not– Nowhere near like a World War II or Vietnam scenario I think our casualties were only like 100 or less if you do MIAK– Or wounded and killed so the WAK, I don’t know we gotta work on our acronyms, there’s so many of them I don’t know. Interviewer: “So you never saw any of the actual fighting, no one ever attacked the command element?” �Rowland, Daniel Well you could hear and when you went outside you could see cause a lot of it was at night you could see the, like the artillery, the LAV, the tanks. So the fire fights and stuff because we were just on the other side of– There’s a river that runs by the bridges and we were on the back end of it and we could kind of see down you could like see it all going on. So not the same as being obviously in it so I can’t make any grandiose claims like that but anyway after that then we moved on. We ended up in some old Iraqi air base by Al Kut, hung out there for a couple months after the invasion ended, sweat a lot because the desert’s hot in the summer. Interviewer: “I had no idea.” Really? You learn something new everyday. Interviewer: “Exactly.” And then came home. (20:33) Interviewer: “So during the actual fighting I’m assuming you weren’t working on security clearances and that sort of thing.” No I mean most of it there, most of my job at the end of the day was just making sure the area was secure, people that came and went had clearances, we didn’t actually process– clearances were for the rear, you showed up you either had it or you didn’t so it’s nothing amazing. Though I did get to see how things happened at a command level, you know it was like the fly on the wall I just like walk in the tent and see everybody doing their jobs like the three shop who is operations and then all the other guys are like “Oh we need this, we need that, tell them to do this.” You know like you see war movies and you just see the soldiers are out fighting but you know actually seeing the puppet masters I guess you’d call them, cause you know if you’re the down on the front line fighting, you know you just go where you’re told, but seeing how they make those decisions at the higher level I guess was pretty good for an experience level. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “Did you ever have any issues with officers?” Who doesn’t? No, no not at that time really it was actually– Again the Marine Corps would end up being small again later on in my career but no at the time no. Well everybody’s so focused on the job at hand which is, you know war which is kind of why we exist then, you know personal animosities between each other. Though there was one captain, he was the general’s aide to camp and he was kind of a douchebag. Interviewer: “What did he do?” No he was just a dick. Interviewer: “Oh, fair enough.” Well because you know here’s the general making all the decisions and this is basically his lackey, carry my briefcase and crap. (22:05) So he had nothing else to do but harass us, there was me, the general’s terp and his driver and we assumed he was crap for no reason. He’s like “Oh, you know you need a haircut.” And I’m like– Right, right. Interviewer: “We are at war.” There are some people, no matter what you’re doing, that want to stick to military protocol like it’s gonna be the end of the world if you don’t. Interviewer: “Got it.” I mean we’re talking about a guy– So like we’re in a town trying to take it over and stuff and he would find some Iraqi out in town to like, press his camis and pay them like a couple bucks. Interviewer: “Wow.” �Rowland, Daniel Yeah, this– Don’t get me started on it there’s just some people that are like, what? I mean we were in MOP gear for like over a month, the– I forgot the actual acronym, the biological weapon cause we were still “Oh he’s got a WMD.” You know so we had on this mop gear for over 30 days, no– I mean we were invading, no showers no– You know baby wipes became our friends. So we were pretty nasty so like I didn’t get a haircut, really? But anyway that’s– He annoyed me but that was about it. Interviewer: “So when you were over in Iraq, other than the administrative work, you know what did you do after the invasion?” We sat around for– Cause the invasion was late March, early April and we were there till like the beginning of July, end of June and we just sat there, that was it. I mean you’re not– I mean because they’re still having to figure out what they’re gonna do with the country and we’re just like– We’re hanging out and doing nothing, played lots of spades. (23:48) Interviewer: “After that what happened, when did you leave?” We got back on the ships– See they went over in December on the ships and then I, like I said, I flew over mid deployment and then we had to take the ships back so that was fun, but I got on the boat and took the longest shower of my life, maybe, but it was nice and then we got to float home. Yeah, stopped in Lisbon on the way, that was fun. Interviewer: “What ship were you on?” The– Was it the Nassau? Yeah I think it was the Nassau, we had the Nassau, the Kearsarge, and I forget the third ship in our little fleet but it was a hootenanny. Got to go through the Suez canal and man the guns, hey we’re jarheads what else we got to do right? Interviewer: “I’m assuming nothing tried to attack you.” �Rowland, Daniel No, that’s standard protocol when you’re going through the canals and the stuff is to man the guns on the side. So whatever but got to go past the rocket gibraltar, that was fun looking, I guess that you– There’s– I mean you know you’re Navy, all the little weird things like the shell back or if you cross the equator and this, we got one for going through the city waters and ooh. Interviewer: “So the military traditions where they kind of haze you and you get a little reward afterwards.” Not for that one, you just got it for going through the Suez and the Med, yeah I’ve heard of some of the things they do and sea bats and all that, we’ll leave that for you to explain for the people to hear. Interviewer: “Shell backs a whole different beast.” No you never heard of the– “Hey we got a sea bat under that container.” And then you go– Never mind. (25:24) Interviewer: “Yeah the old, the hazing techniques to make you go just waste your time.” [overlapping chatter] Hundred yards of flight line I got. Interviewer: “Go wait for the mail buey, that sort of thing.” Hey, get me some blinker fluid. No? Okay, keys in the humvee. Interviewer: “So the Navy was kind of messing with you guys a little bit.” Well– But that was it though and man I tell you what the Navy cooks are actually pretty good, I don’t know. Well compared to eating MREs for three months I guess anything was good. Interviewer: “So after–” �Rowland, Daniel And so I get back and, you know that’s it for– So by then I’m married, got a kid on the way, and I’m still on involuntary order so I’m like “Well, I should probably go.” Cause by this time I had almost seven years and I’m like “Oh maybe I should go back to active duty.” and that took a year cause recruiters suck. Interviewer: “So where were you at for this year? Were you just–” I was– No I was still recalled reservist back at my old job at Camp Lejeune and that’s when I got my Navy achievement medal and all the other crap for a job I didn’t even know what I did and they give them out like candy so like “Oh hey everybody gets one” unless you’re infantry, then you don’t get anything. So then I try to come back in, takes them a year, I tried going officer too, that didn’t pan out I don’t know. So apparently– Well whatever, so then I go back then they let me back in in June of 2004 and I tried going back in as an intelligence analyst because I’m like I’ve already got the clearance. (26:57) I mean I kinda needed high clearance for my old job and then I figured– They made me retake the ASVAB and scored perfect and I’m like “Oh okay, I can get in, this is no problem.” They’re like “Oh, we want you back in but only as infantry.” I’m like “What?” “It’s the only thing we have open.” So of course I took it cause I got a kid on the way, I’m marrying, and I gotta provide for my family and then I come to find out later there was still like openings for the intelligence. Apparently recruiters even treat Marines like 17 year olds and just meet their quotas, I don’t know but I’m still a little bitter about that. Interviewer: “That’s understandable. So when–” I had two college degrees and a 99 on the ASVAB and a top secret clearance, I was like “Why couldn’t I get the job?” Anyway. Interviewer: “That is a bit on the ridiculous side.” So I guess I went in as one of the smaller grunts, that was– Yeah June of 2004, I got to my unit in August of 2004 2nd Battalion, 6th Marines, 2nd Marine division blah blah and then they stuck �Rowland, Daniel me in weapons company. I was going to become an anti armor assault man, 0352 basically we shoot rockets at tank and at that time they told me “Oh they just got rid of on the job training.” Which means you could like work work with a unit for six months and get your new job designation. “So you have to go back to training.” So I’m a sergeant with seven years in and they sent me to basically back to combat training with a fricken 18 and 18 year old privates. Interviewer: “That sounds fun.” Oh it was hootenanny, it wasn’t really that bad there were two corporals over there too and the instructors pretty much let us like not do all the dumb crap. Interviewer: “They knew you knew essentially.” Well considering I outanked most of my instructors I was like, okay you know– Like you know like no cell phones or no smoking for the privates but then we go hang out with the instructors behind the buildings and call our wives and smoke cigarettes cause if it wasn’t anything essential, like especially the first three weeks were basically a rehash of combat training and then the last four weeks you break up into your specific jobs, they train all the infantry there. (29:05) So we just went to class and then graduated and went back to our units, it was still fun though, and that’s when I found out I lost all my time in grade as a sergeant. Yeah I was promoted June 2003 to sergeant, was it? No, 2002 and then when I came back to active duty they reset my date of rank, which being in the military one of the important parts of getting promoted was time in grade. So you have to be a certain rank so long before you’re even eligible for the next rank, so I lost like two and half years' time in grade, that was fun. Interviewer: “And you couldn’t fight that at all?” No, even though I was involuntarily activated, that comes in later, this is a big whine fest I think. So I graduate in October ‘04, go to my unit and then the next– What was it? Yeah it was the next October, October ‘05 but in that time they send me to sergeants course, some counter terroism course, all these frickin courses cause apparently they thought I was smart or something, and �Rowland, Daniel then October ‘05 we head over to Fallujah, Iraq this was after the push through I think it was Phantom Fury is what is was called. We’re the first unit to take over the area after the push through, and at the time I’m like “Oh, I’m gonna be a platoon sergeant.” Because you know I’m a sergeant and then they’re like “Nope, you’re going to headquarters company.” “What?” And then they stick me in an entry control point in the middle of Fallujah, basically the city was– I don’t want to say quarantined or blockade, but to get in the city you had to go through one of six checkpoints, you know they had to search you, we had a little vehicle. All these, you know kind of like the TSA but you know not as stupid, so I got stuck there for the deployment. Nothing too exciting, I had a little satellite outpost where we did commercial traffic, semis and crap, we got into a fire fight a couple of times because we’re like right on the main highway and right behind us was like this big gully, I don’t even know. So somebody could just like walk into the city through it if they were somewhat evasive and they’d walk up and take pot shots at us and that was not as exciting as it sounds cause you’re on– We did 24 on, 24 off so you’d be bored most of the time “Ooh search the– Search the big truck full of stones!” We had the long like rebars we had to stick in their and we’re looking for bombs or something, I don’t know, and then pretty quiet till March of ‘06. (31:37) Then our main checkpoint got blown up from one of those orange dump trucks, google it you’ll see them, and somebody decided to blow it up and we only lost one Marine and a couple of Iraqi guys because we had the Iraqi army and police working with us too, about 30 wounded because the concrete barriers they like to use like to turn into microscopic shrapnel, once you have you know a couple thousands of pounds of explosives go off next to it. So then a couple days all the guys would have the fragments in them from the explosion, started becoming sick their body was rejecting it, but since I was at the little satellite outposts I went over– Cause the explosion was– So we were 600 yards from them and it knocked me on my ass, that’s how big the explosion was and then I got to go over there with some of the Iraqi guys and it was just like the little building, everything was just knocked the hell down but most of the– And I don’t– Did they over teach you OPSEC? I assume they teach you OPSEC when you’re in, you know like if you travel change your routes and stuff. Well our brilliant bosses every day at the same time was the changeover, when the one team would come out and go off so after six months of doing the same thing every day they knew when to hit us. So needless to say it was kind of– And I pointed this out months before but you know I was just an E5 what did I know? It’s not like seven years being in a security office going to, you know, the naval criminal �Rowland, Daniel investigation security managers course, the DSS security managers course, I got certificates a mile long but no, I didn’t know nothing. Being a security manager for the invasion for a general, no what did I know cause– I’m gonna try, you know those clover leaves when you get on the highway, they like wrap around, we were like right in the middle of one so when somebody hits the on ramp they can look down and it was just– This is something a frickin moron should be able to look at and be like “That doesn’t seem that secure with the on ramp open.” So whatever, so I started building an animosity towards officers, more so after that because you know when they don’t listen it’s like “Really?” But anyways that’s besides the point, and that was the first time I lost somebody under my command so– Cause technically I was second in charge of that unit, I had an E7 and then me and then we had like 15 guys under us or whatever so still a little haunted by that, anyway [unintelligible] Interviewer: “So stepping back a little bit when it comes to working with the Iraqi police and–” Yeah they were pretty good, nothing weird about them just dudes trying to make a living. Interviewer: “You didn’t worry at all that they might be with any of these groups?” (34:28) Not at that time, cause we’re talking a couple years after– They, I guess the local government they had a pretty good way of vetting you know I mean I never had a problem with them. Hell usually when we closed down the post we’d go– Cause we had a little trailer and these guys, I don’t know if you ever saw the big shipping containers, they would basically– They built bunk beds and stuff in there for them because those guys were out there for like a month, they weren’t– Like after 24 hours we go back to our little base, have our nice little beds and these poor guys are out there but we’d go in there and we’d smoke hookahs with them and have some tea, play cards, whatever you know just dudes. They were some– Well let’s just say they loved cellphones too because they would show some nasty– They’re just red blooded dudes like anybody else man, they were just trying to make a living to support their families. So for the most part, no I never had to worry about them, plus yeah I’d also gone through an Arabic course �Rowland, Daniel I can even speak the conversational toddler so that was fun too. That’s the way I look at it, I was never that great at it. Interviewer: “Did any of the guys under your command have any issues with them like pick fights with them or anything?” No, I think initially some guys were worried but after a month or two you find out they’re just regular guys and there’s nothing bad about them. Which is I guess counterintuitive from what people have been told but like a lot of guys that would even put the bombs on the side of the road it’s not like they were fundamentalist terrorists, someone’s like “Hey, here’s a couple hundred dollars go put this–” But this is the point where they were stop setting them off themselves, it was the ones where, well the full term would be victim actuated improvised explosive devices, pretty much like imagine a pressure plate and when you drove over it it would complete the circuit and blow up. So some of these guys would go and just set them up and the ones that we would caught they’re not terrorist or anything they’re just like “Oh hey someone paid me X amount of dollars to do this.” (36:22) Interviewer: “And what would– Did you ever catch any of these guys yourself?” Well I mean we didn’t other like units, we were pretty stationary so we weren’t even mobile but from what I heard a lot of the ones they did catch in the act they were just doing it cause they were paid, because you know that– During that period of time you know that was before the full rebuilding effort, it was hard man I could imagine a guy “Hey I need to get food for my family.” Here a dude “Here’s some money man go put this over by the road.” “Okay.” So it’s– I wish it was as clean cut as that, oh here’s a bad guy shoot him, but is he a bad guy or just someone down on his luck, I don’t know. It’s very– It’s always a lot more complicated than people make it out to be in the media, but anyway but at the end of that then we came home in April of ‘06 and we did what Marines do, you know run a lot, train a lot, and get ready to go back over the next year so then we went back in October– I’m sorry April of ‘07. That was the standard fair, go for seven, eight months, come home for eight or nine and then go back over but eight or nine at �Rowland, Daniel home wasn’t– You weren’t home, we had to go to California for a month or two, then we had to go to Virginia, all this training, go in the field every other week it seemed like, train train train. Interviewer: “Now going back to the orange dump truck, did you guys– Did that at least spark some change?” Not really. Interviewer: “Like did you guys move the security point at that point, better off site?” No they had it rebuilt within 24 hours, they closed the on ramp, that was it. We were gone within a month so nobody seemed to care. Interviewer: “Okay, and–” The prevailing attitude is if you’re a lower rank you’re expendable, I mean that’s the– (38:08) Let’s call it what it is, your job is to die for the cause and if you do they’ll just “Hey, we got guys back at the base we’ll just fill in the roster.” Cause that’s all they did, when everybody got his I think four or five of us out of 30 people between the two crews, like three or four of us stayed out there and they just replaced them with a bunch of other dudes, it was like we didn’t miss a beat, you know can’t stop operations man, mission accomplishment and all that crap. So yeah they closed down the ramp, engineers rebuilt the place in like a couple of hours and hey we’re up and running again. Military efficiency, whooo! I mean that’s just the way it works man, which I understand but then it seems like the lack of– I understand that you have to do what you have to do, I get that but then it seems like even afterwards when you do have time to breathe, no one else really seems to give a crap, is that? Now obviously in old school conventional wars when you had to push through, push through yeah you didn’t have time and I get that but like what we were doing, out of seven months you know six and a half of it was pretty damn boring. So needless to say we– You know but there’s always downtime especially when we’re home within a month it’s like, okay thanks for not giving a shit. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So, you went home, you did your year of training.” Yeah and then we went back, this time I actually was a platoon sergeant and I got my own 24 guys, six we were a mobile assault platoon, five gun trucks in a high back, basically a pickup truck with big walls and we got to travel around and try to find interesting people and shoot them. So that was a hoot but things are really quieted down by that compared to the last time, I think the first time I was in Fallujah everything was blowing up and there were roadside bombs like every five feet it seemed like but the second time it was actually pretty quiet. Interviewer: “Were you again near Fallujah?” We were in the same exact spot. Interviewer: “Same on ramp and everything?” (40:10) Well no that was entry control point, this time I was actually with the weapons company with an actual mobile assault platoon but I mean we were on the same forward operating base, some of us were sleeping in the same beds we were a year before. We were exactly back, the only difference was the first time we were there the city was like divided up into three areas and all these different units had a different area of responsibility. When we went back we had the whole city to ourselves, it had calmed down that much, so we’re like “Okay” and for the most part, like I think the first time we were there we lost ten or 12 guys maybe, there was actually a sniper out there in January too when we were there, he killed a couple guys, mostly Iraqi police, Iraqi army. I think we lost a couple guys and so we had– So we lost about ten to 15 guys and I think we had about 20 wounded, the second time we were there I think we lost two, maybe three, but one of them was a– We were there like not even a week and some engineer that had been attached to our unit, new guy, went to a porta chuter and offed himself. Interviewer: “Jeez.” �Rowland, Daniel Not– And then another one some dude was driving down the road really fast and his humvee hit a dune and the guy got thrown out the back and killed, so two of our KIAs were through accidents or self-inflicted injuries. So I guess you don’t count those when you’re talking killed in action which is normally enemies but this time no. Interviewer: “I mean it’s still people dying.” I understand the sympathy from regular but when you’re in that scenario it’s like– Well one died cause they were stupid like don’t speed in your humvee down the road, you know so he was a casualty of stupid and the other was, you know I guess he got there and he couldn’t hack it, we had only been there a week. So is it sad? Yes but can I feel sympathy towards him? Not really, I mean if you don’t want to go I understand that but like we had guys that were more creative, they were like self inflicting injuries before we left like dropping weights on their feet and breaking their feet. Oh that’s fine, then you get charged for malingering but still you don’t have to go. Interviewer: “I mean–” (42:22) I’m just saying if you don’t want to go to Iraq there’s things you can do before we even leave where you’re not offing yourself, I’m just saying callous but when you’ve been over the multiple times and you’ve seen your friends die from enemy action and crap, it’s hard to feel sympathy for other people, like you knew what you were getting into when you signed up especially in 2007, 2008 I mean we’d already been at war for like six, seven years it’s like if you signed the dotted line and didn’t think you were going why’d you sing up? It’s not like they were drafted it was still all volunteer force, it sounds cold but given the circumstances you probably know what you’re getting into, and besides he was like a– He was a motor team mechanic or an engineer it’s not like they ever left the base, again not trying to be a dick but you know from my perspective it’s like oh I gotta go out into town two, three times a day and potentially get shot at and you’re sitting here, you know on the base really not doing anything, and by then we had a nice chow hall, I mean like salad bar, sandwich bar nice even brought in the guys from Indy to work it for us, it was pretty swank. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So when you were going out and, you know as you said it, searching for interesting people to meet and shoot did you have a lot of action?” Not as much as one would think but it seemed the other units–Or the other platoons always got the fun stuff, hell it was our first week, we got there and then we ripped with the unit we were replacing which is like ride along, riding along, basically like they go out and then like your leaders will ride with them and then you’ll slowly phase in your guys and replace theirs. I think it was about the second week we’re driving down the road and we get called to go to an incident and somebody had been driving on the road, some idiot and I use these terms with endearment, had an accident in the convoy and wandered off onto a dirt road and gotten belly shotted. By this time the insurgent tactics had moved to burying IEDs in the road so, you know general protocol was don’t drive down dirt roads. Well somebody did and belly shotted a humvee and we got to go clean it up. Interviewer: “By that you mean they drove over it and the bomb went off under?” (44:47) Yeah the– If I was– Me standing in the blast like my head stuck up, I don’t know if they buried it that deep or it was the explosion cause I mean I don’t even know what ammunition they used we were just there for clean up. So most time you think the 155 shells or whatever, you know where the charge could blow up but this could’ve been one the blew up and down and made the hole deeper, I don’t know, but yeah we got to pick up a couple guys in ziploc bags, take them to the main base morgue, and I think half of our guys were like new, so we kind of like left them over the road while we collected things and them brought them back but like it was– It was just sloppy, it always seemed– Cause as a mobile assault platoon we were more– We were too fast for like them to just sit down and ambushes, that’d be more for like the foot patrols. We were more reactionary so we always showed up when things were going on or just finished that was kind of our job, or to project a military presence. Interviewer: “Basically you would go around.” �Rowland, Daniel Is that the correct term that they use, or projecting force, I don’t know. So and then another time, this one’s funny, we had a– There was a big intersection of Fallujah and the Iraqi police, I don’t even like know stoplights, they made like this little plywood– I’m trying to think of what you– You know just imagine like a little plywood like tool booth if you would, a little bigger with a roof on it and surrounded by sandbags and you know they’re out there directing traffic or whatever and somebody takes– I guess sidestep, our commander, the battalion commander, they basically more effectively cinched off the city to prevent you know ammunition and bombs coming in. So– And it worked because eventually the insurgents in the city started making their own, it was some yellow powder I don’t remember, but anyway this little bongo truck– It looks like a roller skate, just google bongo truck and you’ll see they’re ridiculously small, this thing was loaded with barrels of this explosive and he’s rolling down the road, runs into this Iraqi police post and detonates. Now the one thing apparently insurgents can’t do is make their own explosives, so the stuff in the cab went off, nothing else did. So he hits this little post of these guys, I think one dude ended up breaking his leg just from the force of the impact but that was it. (47:23) We get called up and we gotta cordon off the area and secure it, cause you know it’s still explosive, so we’re just sitting there looking at this little blue bongo truck and inside the cab it’s just messy because the guy managed to blow himself up and it’s just, you know guts and gore over the– All over the windows and of course we found it hilarious, it’s like if you’re gonna die for the cause fine but you know i expect you want to take more than just yourself with you. Of course the downside is all this stuff spilled over the road, we had to wait for explosives ordnance guys to come out and clean it up and I think we spent like 12 hours out there it was so boring. One time like a dog runs by and runs away with a guy’s hand and yeah go ahead and laugh it was– Now at this point you’re in country a few months, you’re just bored, you’re just laughing so hard cause they open the door to try to, you know check the detonation device and all that other stuff and it’s– So yeah we had fun too. Interviewer: “Were you still on pretty good terms with the Iraqi police and military there?” Yeah I mean they were– Well I mean the police are from the area, the Iraqi army would normally be from a different part of the country cause I guess you’d look at it like– If you think back to the �Rowland, Daniel Civil War they’d have like, you know the Michigan whatever unit, they’re all from the same town wherever, and that’s the way the Iraqi army was. So– And they would bring in guys from a different part of the country because they didn’t know anyone locally but the Iraqi police were local. Yeah they were pretty good guys, no problems there I mean– Interviewer: “What about the civilians?” You know what they’re just people trying to live their lives man, for the most part they just did what they did and we just went around. I mean it comes to this, if you weren’t dicks to them or you weren’t, you know if you weren’t overly– If you just treat them like people you got along fine, you know there’s a lot of– I’m sure we’ve all heard stories of the military that were over there and like being over dickish, I don’t know if it was just because the Middle Easterners in general were dehumanized or because they were just– I mean I don’t know but no they were just regular people. Hell we would normally stop for– Grab lunch from a little place down on– I mean we name the streets after like– I mean you can’t pronounce Iraqi but like north to south– Yeah north to south had female names and east to west had male names but like the main drag was called [sounds like “Frayen”] and there’s a little guy running a kebab shop there and we’d pop in and get some lunch every couple of days whenever we’re around. (50:03) He was a nice guy, give him money, we get food and it was pretty good food, jeez wonder if there’s any good kebab shops around here, anyway– Hey man. Interviewer: “Now you’ve got me wanting kebabs.” I know right cause, you know what cause the stuff was fresh like right next door was an actual butcher’s shop. I mean all our stuff is processed as hell, and here you are, you know you pull up to the kebab shop, you hear the cows and goats mooing next door like okay I guess it’s fresh. Interviewer: “So you didn’t ever really worry that one of these guys is gonna attack you or anything?” �Rowland, Daniel It comes down to two mindsets, you can either– If you’re gonna worry about it you’re gonna worry all the time and you’re just gonna go crazy or you’re gonna be so hyper tense all the time you’ll snap, or you’re just like if it happens it happens, you know if you’re comfortable in your training– I mean they call it muscle memory when you do something enough but it also applies to other things like if you hear a gunshot or you hear an explosion you should instinctively know how to react and if you trust that training, then you just don’t worry about it. I mean you’re worried but you’re not– You know, otherwise you’re that paranoid guy who thinks the FBI is listening to his thoughts through the, you know dentures in his mouth and that’s not a good way to go or you’re– It’s gonna be a long ass seven months, he just eventually if it happens it happens. Interviewer: “Were you guys ever ambushed?” Directly no, I mean we had a couple IEDs once, nothing huge like I hit one and blew out the tire I think was unconscious a couple minutes but by then we had the new humvees like the doors were like thicker and all this crap. So it like scratched the paint cause it was– Because it was where we were driving on the main street and we would like go down to one end of the city and come back, it really wasn’t that big but we went down and by the time we came back apparently somebody put it there. (52:00) I mean it wasn’t like hey cause we drove and then we turned around and came back driving the same path that we did and then drove over it and it blew. So it’s like somebody– It’s like when you’re watching T.V and somebody throws out those little spike strips that the cops do, that’s how quick he must have done it because it was right next to an open field. So the guy must have sprinted out– After we drove by the first time must have sprinted out, dropped it, ran back, I don’t know it was weird. Interviewer: “And no one got injured in that cause of the–” No, we blew like two or three tires on the humvee but we just pulled into one of our little bases, swapped them out, and on our way again. Nice and quick, nice and painless, that deployment was actually pretty laid back except for, you know stupid lieutenants but, you know. Oh my lieutenant was an idiot, oh I know I have to explain it. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “Yeah– I mean you don’t have to but–” He’s the kind of guy– Like we go out and do two or three patrols a day, and he would “Okay” show up 45 minutes early to our staging area and then he pulled out the map and he’d be pointing “This is the route–” We would get objectives, like “Oh, we want you to check this spot, this spot, this spot by the command– By the head shed.” And then he would map out all the directions and we’re like “Why don’t we just go as long as we make all our checkpoint?” And he started like “Oh let’s drive down this road, this road.” “Those are dirt roads.” You know hey didn’t we first learn this lesson when we got in the country, and then– So I was the kind of guy I would tell my lead truck guy like– Cause all of my vehicle commanders had been there before, this like I said this is their second time in Fallujah and I’m like “Yeah just as long as we’re making the checkpoints drive however you want to get there.” That created a lot of tension between me and the lieutenant, I didn’t give a crap because I don’t want to get belly shotted. We saw how this works, so screw him, and he was one of the pretentious assholes, pardon my language. Interviewer: “Did he try to get back at you for this?” (53:57) Oh yeah I mean they always do that, you know you get in trouble for– I don’t know about this, you get in trouble or you do something they don’t agree with but it’s not against the rules so then they make up some shit to get back at you later. I mean nothing bad like I didn’t get a bad fitness report or anything but yeah he was one of those guys. He graduated from one of those prestigious schools and he didn’t– Whatever, I don’t care, he was a dick. So he– Yeah that created a lot of crap between me and him but I didn’t care, all my guys made it home, I mean I think the worst thing to happen to one of our guys is he got appendicitis, whoop-dee-doo, but then you always have the commanders and like we had a 1st sergeant that was really bored. I love this rule, so we lived in this old– It’s called Camp Baharia, it was an old bath party luxury resort it had like man made lakes in it and stuff. Apparently Saddam used to have like race boat– Or speed boat races and crap so all these little huts and stuff and you know after the war all the Iraqi siblings came and like stole it all like the plumbing, the windows, all this crap. So we just have these shells of �Rowland, Daniel buildings and they have the porta crappers across the road from where we live and our 1st sergeant’s like “Don’t leave your little house unless you’re at least in PT gear!” So one day one of my guys he woke up, goes to the bathroom, he's just in his shorts, and he got a page 11 for doing that. Interviewer: “Page 11 is?” Basically a reprimand in your file, so yeah cause he woke up and had to pee he got in trouble for not putting a shirt on to go across the street in the middle of summer, in 130 degree weather, yeah I know right. Interviewer: “Seems legit.” These are people that, again goes back to the kind of person, I got– Cause everything we did was at a platoon level or lower so the company staff, they got really bored and they would do stuff like enforce stupid ass rules. Alright maybe not– It– Whatever I think they’re stupid “Hey we’re in a war zone! Don’t forget to put your shirt on.” Cause you gotta go to the bathroom (56:15) Interviewer: “So pretty much nothing really that eventful happened at that point.” Nothing, nothing exciting, or at least not to us I mean other of our platoons they’ll get into firefights. I guess one time they were driving– One guy– One unit was driving down a road and they have a– Fallujah’s got like a little industrial section in the southeast like all warehouses and stuff, they were driving down there some guys come out of a building wearing suicide vests and they were looking at each other and then our guys just turned their guns and started shooting at them, see we missed all the fun stuff, I don’t know. Interviewer: “That’s–” Alright it’s not fun in general but when you’re in an armored vehicle and somebody’s shooting at you with AK-47s and is still far enough where the suicide vests won’t actually do anyhting and �Rowland, Daniel all you have to do is rotate your 50 caliber machine gun down the alley and fire. I mean 50 caliber bullets are pretty– They’re lethal for like, you know small armored vehicles let alone people, there’s not much left of you. So you always hear those stories and you’re like “Why wasn’t I there?” Interviewer: “So when did you leave?” We left October of ‘07, got back and then that was pretty much the highlight of my career. I reenlisted a couple months later and my choices were I could stay with the unit and get a $20,000 bonus or I could pick my own duty station. Well my dumbass picked the– My own duty station cause who needs 20 grand? Well also the mentality of I’ve been over three times and managed to still be alive, I don’t want to push my luck. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” Plus at that point my son was about four or five and I basically missed half his life, like when we got back my third time I went to pick him up and he was crying because he didn’t know who the hell I was, that’s depressing. (58:07) So I’m like “Yeah I’ll stay stateside for a while.” And then I ended up being– Where the hell was it? Camp Johnson which is kind of a weird cyclical thing, that was the base I went to originally to learn to be an administrative clerk. Interviewer: “Where was that at?” It’s like right next to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, there’s like Camp Lejeune and then there’s Camp Johnson, Camp Geiger, the air station. Camp Geiger is where they train the infantry, Camp Johnson’s where they teach the mechanics, the administrative clerks, the financial clerks, and the box kickers– Warehouse guys, their school’s two week it’s like “Why are you even here?” So I basically ended back up where I started and the only jobs there for grunts were sergeant of the guard, basically before a Marine goes into job training if there’s not a class starting they stick them in a barracks and make them little crap jobs like, you know like “Oh hey go help the maintenance guys.” Or go to– Well we got 40 guys to stand around and tell �Rowland, Daniel the Marines their shirts are tucked in, it was pretty mindless but I was fine with that because I didn’t– I wanted mindless I wanted to be home and, pretty much not that exciting, I just sat around with a bunch of other– Of course the problem was is the mentality, there were like seven of us there, there were guys from 1st Battalion 6th Marines, 3rd Battalion and me and we’d all– We’d actually all been in Iraq together, all of our units around, so our mentality was different than a bunch of guys learning to be, you know accountants. So needless to say there were multiple classes, though my first year there was probably my greatest year in the Marine Corps. My immediate– My commanding officer was a guy I had served with during the invasion, so again back to the small world. So yeah I got to basically get away with murder and I’m not saying I did anything wrong but we had pretty lax guidelines at this point. When guys you had served with in combat are your bosses, but it was all– Our sergeant major was about the top enlisted guy, was actually with 3-6, he was like 5”1, his actual last name was Meanie, he was single and he rode a Harley. Yes, everything you can imagine, he would have like an NCO call for all the corporals and sergeants and he would be like “Well first two kegs are on me.” You know the kind of senior enlisted guy that you only hear of in like fantasies and like I think he was within six months. We were at a physical training thing and some 1st sergeant pissed him off so he laid him out. (1:00:52) Interviewer: “Like hit him?” Yeah, from what I hear, and then he got transferred to a deploying unit which I think in hindsight is what he wanted, I mean he was those kind of guy he could– You could like just drop him off in Iraq and he would live there because he’s that kind of guy, but yeah but once those guys started leaving then we got the pricks and that’s essentially where my career ended because I couldn’t get promoted to staff sergeant. In the Marine Corps if you don’t make E6 by 13 you’re out so. Interviewer: “Okay so you were forcibly discharged.” I was– I was unable to reenlist, but and then that goes back to when they took my two and half, three years time in grade because as an infantry Marine you normally had to be in a sergeant for �Rowland, Daniel two or three years before you’re even eligible for promotion and by the time– So that was ‘04 so I was, I think it was in the– In the Marine Corps you have Marines in the zone, below zone and above zone so like they need a hundred dudes, they’ll put 200 guys in the zone, and that’s all based on how long you’ve been and E5 and I think my first year I was in the below zone. That’s basically like “Oh we can’t find enough good guys we’ll go down here and look.” So by the time I was– And that just happened to coincide with the downsizing, they were gonna cut 20 or 30,000 Marines. They were promoting 400 Marines in my job a year, the year I was finally eligible they cut it down to 90, it was like– So that along with my lost time in grade, you know I should’ve been eligible for promotion two years earlier but now it was like, it was just a cluster fudge and it kind of– Came to and end, which I was fine with because I was unable to reenlist through no fault of my own, they gave me a nice severance package which was fun. I mean if you’re gonna get out– Interviewer: “You might as well get a severance from it right?” Yeah but at the end of the day I, at that point I think I had 15 years in, a year and half later they offered 15 year retirements. Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.” (1:02:55) Oh I know right, but anyway that was pretty much the bulk of it. Interviewer: “So that was your last duty station then you separated? What’d you do after?” Farted around a while, I bought a house in Jacksonville where Camp Lejeune is and of course in 2010, guess what happened in 2008. I went with downsizing, the housing market was just– So I couldn’t leave, it was so sad because living in a military town when you’re no longer in the military is like ehhh. Bummed around a while and then I finished my first master’s degree, I’d started when I was in Iraq the third time, I was bored and like “I’m going to school.” And then I don’t know, stuff just happened, I got sick of living there and then you learn the whole “It’s who �Rowland, Daniel you know” adage, like I would try to apply for the jobs on base and never seem to get them, but now it’s just me whining. Interviewer: “I mean the transition from civilian– Or military to civilian is hard.” Well in a military town like that the jobs paid crap because there’s always an overabundance of workers, military spouses and stuff so they can pay you less money because if you quit or you get fired they got ten more lined up in the back. So the jobs just sucks and any good jobs on base it’s who you knew, like one time there was an educational counselor job open at the base education center, you know I had a bachelor’s in counseling and a master’s in education, I didn’t get an interview. Things like that you know and after that I just gave up and eventually “Well let’s just pack it in and move.” So when my marriage started going south, my second one, I just grabbed my kid and moved back here to Michigan and said “Hey let’s go back to school again.” Cause they gave me an extra year free, G.I bill so nothing amazing. Interviewer: “And that’s what you’re doing now?” Yeah I’m going to school and running into people like you who ask me to do things like this, which isn’t bad I guess, taking worthless English classes. (1:04:50) Interviewer: “So nothing– The military didn’t really prepare you for the civilian life?” I’m– In the general context they do not, for me it– I mean this is gonna sound egotistical again but I didn’t need them too because I’d done four years and gotten out the first time, then I went back in, then when I got out the next time, you know– I think the best thing that prepared me for transition was still living in a military town and knowing how it is, and then by the time I get back up here it’s a totally different community like for one you know people around here actually like veterans. Well when you’re in a military town they’re like “Who cares you’re a veteran get the hell out of my face.” So no they put you through like a three day class when you get out “Here’s how you do a resume, this is how you do this, this is how–” You know there’s no– They give you information that you can find on your own they don’t actually– It’s like �Rowland, Daniel coming back from combat, they’re like “hey don’t beat your family members.” You know they don’t actually transition you from a combat scenario back to, you know peacetime or back to life back in the states, it’s done really poorly. Interviewer: “Was that hard for you?” Not for me but for everyone cause I mean having the– I think it was easier for me because my first time in Iraq I didn’t really see combat but I got enough of it to know what was going on so when I went back the second time I knew what to expect plus having, you know the self– Cause having like the degree in social work I already knew the generic psychological aspects, all this and that so I could help prep myself but it was just one of those weird things where what I already knew just happened to fit what I was going to do. It’s really weird how it all came together but I could also see at the same time that for the regular guys coming back that it wasn’t anything special, it wasn’t anything– It was one of those dichotomies it’s like you know come back if you’re feeling sad or whatever talk to somebody but yet at that time if you went and like saw a shrink your career is pretty much over. They’ve destigmatized a lot in the last five, ten years but at that time they’re telling you to do but everybody else knew if you did you’re pretty much done. (1:07:18) So, I don’t know, that’s where you see the transition of what it was like to what it is and I know– To my understanding it’s still not that great now but yeah from military to civilian life good luck with that. I mean they don’t really– They tell you a lot of things but they don’t actually tell you– Help you– Having the information and using that information in a meaningful manner are two different things, so it’s like you know you come back “Here, have a book. Get the hell out.” You know it’s like it’s not the same thing as actually helping someone transition. So once you get those discharge papers, you know go away, I don’t care anymore you are no longer under my command, get the F out I don’t care. So now you’re out there alone you’re like “Who do I go to?” You have to find out all this on your own, like nobody tells you that there’s veterans service officers, that you can go to the American legion, the VFW, the DAV and all these other accessible things. They may mention them in passing but they don’t actually tell you what they do, what they can offer, all this other stuff but whatever hey that’s just the military. Once you’re no longer able to die for your country they don’t give a crap. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So are you– Would you recommend the military to someone?” It depends on the person, what you want and what you’re willing to do. Interviewer: “How would you feel about your son joining the military?” I’d tell him to join the Air Force. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” If he joined the Marine Corps I’d smack him upside the head, like I was stupid you don’t need to be stupid, or if you could do it in a capacity which you can maximize your benefits but minimize your risks, I mean again that sounds kind of selfish or something but at the end of the day, you know I don’t want my kid signing up and going off to die, I mean I don’t think anybody does, but if he wants to join, get some job experience, some military expereince, and some money for college well that’s great but if that’s all you want out of it– Like don’t join and enlist in the Army as a soldier you know as an infantry. That’s the dumbest thing but some people like that and again that’s why I’m saying it depends on the person. (1:09:30) If somebody’s all gung ho I want to serve my nation and go to war well hot damn sign up, become infantry if that’s what you want but some people– And it’s the aptitude as well, some people just they could be the smartest person in the room but if they’re unable to listen to authority and keep their mouth shut, not a good choice but that’s just me. Interviewer: “Alright, that just about wraps us up, was there anything else you wanted to say?” No, I’m good. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RowlandD2291V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowland, Daniel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-12 Title A name given to the resource Rowland, Daniel (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource Daniel Rowland was born in 1975 in Grand Rapids, Michigan and decided to enroll in the Marine Corps after his third semester in college. In 1995 Rowland attended boot camp in San Diego, California where he acted as the guide to recruits, After basic training, Rowland was sent to Camp Pendleton to complete Marine combat training. After completing Marine combat training, Rowland was sent to job training in North Carolina where he received training to become an administrative clerk. Rowland then spent three and a half years stationed in Hawaii at Camp Smith working as an administrative clerk. During this time, Rowland would be sent for occasional brief missions in South Korea. While he was stationed in Hawaii, Rowland also received his associate’s degree in business and bachelor’s degree in social work. In 1998 Rowland returned home and left active duty, joining the individual ready reserves where he did occasional active duty. One of these active-duty missions was a mission to go to North Carolina in 200. Due to the events of 9/11, this resulted in Rowland being involuntarily activated for two years during which he worked in a security manager’s office as an administrative clerk. In 2003 Rowland was deployed to Iraq as part of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade as the assistant security manager. After returning from Iraq to the United States by boat, Rowland decided to return to active duty as an infantryman in 2004. In 2005 Rowland’s unit was sent to Fallujah, Iraq working in headquarters company, and in 2006 Rowland came home for a year before being sent back to Fallujah, Iraq for a third time. Rowland returned home to the United States in 2007 and was stationed at Camp Johnson as a sergeant of the guard before being forcibly discharged and going on to return to school and resume civilian life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/920d53d619eb4441d5de63866960116b.mp4 aa97fbd7bb28aa1ce3dfe0ed901ce2f7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74964602f277700bd23d0182b9f54116.pdf 659a7ab980a63a69a921ebb29fbc3bda PDF Text Text Rowe, Burt Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee’s Name: Bert Rowe Length of Interview: (1:19:36) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Burt Rowe of Niles, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Burt start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born on April of 1930. Interviewer: “Okay and where were you born?” (00:32) Where I was born was Saginaw– Or, no– Off camera voice: “Saginaw, Michigan.” Yeah, it was Saginaw. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you grow up there or did you move around when you were a kid?” I grew up in– I followed my mother, she divorced my dad, and I followed her into Muskegon Heights and we joined the Marine Corps in Muskegon Heights and I flew a number of airplanes. Interviewer: “Okay, now I want to back up a little bit and fill in some more of the background. So how old were you when you moved to Muskegon Heights?” �Rowe, Burt Probably I was– Well I was a teenager. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you were still living in Saginaw then kind of through the 1930s?” Through the 1930s yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and what was your family doing for a living in the 30s? What kind of job did your dad have?” My dad had a job in the Navy he was a– Let’s see I think he was a– Seems to me that he was a television– Or a color– Interviewer: “Like a teletype operator or a radio operator?” (2:53) He was a communications operator. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and–” And he was that in the Hawaiian islands and he remained that a communications officer. Interviewer: “So he was off in Hawaii and your family was back in Michigan?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did your mother work outside of the home?” Yes, she taught. She taught grade school and also she taught primary education and she was a very good teacher. She taught me, I was one of the lucky ones that I had her for three or four years. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, now you were kind of young then but do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” Well I heard Pearl Harbor, the nasty Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and they included the city of Honolulu and Pearl Harbor and they came out of the north and they seemed to migrate southwards and they bombed Pearl Harbor and they also bombed the famous– Yeah just trying to think of what the famous– Interviewer: “Well they bombed the Army base which was Schofield Barracks and then the movie From Here to Eternity shows a scene of them doing that, they bombed the air fields and so forth too. Now was your father in Hawaii when Pearl Harbor happened?” No, he went later. Interviewer: “Okay, alright just gonna go back then to sort of your main story, so you graduated from high school in ‘48 and then a little– About a year later you decided to join the Marine Corps. Why did you join the Marine Corps?” (6:55) Because they were begging for– I wanted to bring the Marine Corps home, I probably did that as I’ve mentioned before I’ve flown a number of airplanes, aircraft, Sinclair aircraft. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were doing this before you joined the Marine Corps?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, so you took– Did you take flying lessons then?” Yes, I took flying lessons and I also– I flew airplanes during the war. Interviewer: “You mean during the Korean war?” �Rowe, Burt Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright.” The Korean war and I flew aircraft up to the time I joined the Marine Corps and I quickly— I didn’t fly during the combat. I flew airplanes and that– Moved a lot of aircraft and we also flew airplanes. I always wanted to take off on a corsair, I had one incident that I flew an airplane and I got the tail up and it was snowy and it was cold and I flew with the tail in the air and I crashed into a fence and I managed to finish the Spanish– Not Spanish, but I had the tail in the air and I managed to– Interviewer: “Well you hit a fence.” Demolition of a land house and nothing happened to me, nothing happened materially, it scared the hell out of– Interviewer: “Now I kind of want to back up again here and try to kind of put your story together in order if we can. So you enlist in the Marine Corps in about 1949, I think that was what you figured you did, and you did that voluntarily you weren’t drafted. They were looking for volunteers, now when you enlisted did you hope to be a pilot or did they tell you you couldn’t be a pilot?” (12:15) No, I didn’t hope to be a pilot, I wanted the ground troops and I kept pretty much the air wing, I was air wing for– Oh, probably two or three years. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you first– Now after you enlist, first thing you do would be to go to boot camp right?” Yeah. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay where did you go to boot camp?” I went to Parris Island. Interviewer: “Okay so you go to South Carolina.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, now what kind of reception did you get? When you arrived at Parris Island what did they do first?” Well we rode a train into Parris Island and I had control of some of the– I had control of a certain number of people. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were keeping an eye on some of the recruits or keeping them together?” (13:50) Yeah and I– had a major that was pretty salty and he gauged my confidence and he knew I flew on airplanes and so he kind of cheated a little bit, don’t ever– I won’t even mention his name but he made sure I flew a little bit. Interviewer: “Okay, well on Parris Island they weren’t flying though.” No. Interviewer: “Parris Island– That’s what I was kind of asking about was what was the experience at Parris Island like?” Oh it was rough, it was– Probably made a man out of me a lot quicker and I was stationed at Jacksonville and I also flew unofficially. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Now when you said Jacksonville, do you mean Jacksonville, Florida?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, because there’s also a Jacksonville, North Carolina that’s close to Camp Lejeune so– But you were at a naval air station at Jacksonville.” Jacksonville, Florida. Interviewer: “Right, okay.” And we had two or three guys that belonged to the same group and they also work for Michigan, Mint Michigan, and we had a jolly good time and we kind of mixed it up and we had a good time in service and I was still a sergeant and I had a crew that maintained, I think three planes. Interviewer: “Now was this at Jacksonville or in Korea or?” (17:45) That spread over to Korea. Interviewer: “Alright, now what kind of aircraft did your men work on?” They worked on Corsairs and the AU-1s, not the old fighter but we maintain AU-1s and they were pretty much a bomber– Interviewer: “Right, so ground attack aircraft rather than fighters, yeah because they used a lot of those for ground support in Korea.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so about how many men did you have in your crew?” �Rowe, Burt I had three men. Interviewer: “Okay so three men, but they would take care of three aircraft?” Yeah, they would take care of one another’s aircraft. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did they train you as a mechanic in Jacksonville or as you– You had boot camp at Parris Island and then if you’re gonna learn how to work on aircraft you need to be on an airbase.” Yeah. Interviewer: “So was it in Jacksonville where you kind of started to actually work on planes?” (19:15) Yeah I was at an aircraft base during most of the war and I maintained– Under a staff sergeant I maintained a– Three planes. Interviewer: “And then you mentioned you also got to fly them some of the time. So was that taking them from like one base to another or just to check them out to make sure they flew properly?” They allowed me, thanks to flying experience that I would move airplanes around the base. Around the base and pretty much– Flew planes occasionally, that when I could steal a ride and I would find some combat but not trained combat but higher– We had a couple of bricks– Or planes and they would act as taxi pilots and then they would do more flying than I would and I would clear the runway cause it would snow and it was pretty much land planes and corsairs. Interviewer: “Okay, now the snow– Was there snow in Korea?” Yes. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, I don’t think they have a lot of snow in Jacksonville, Florida all that often. Okay now do you remember where you were when the Korean war started? Were you in Jacksonville at that time?” I was in Jacksonville. Interviewer: “Okay, and then after it started about how long was it before you got sent over to Korea, because the war starts in about June of 1950 and how long then after that did you go to Korea?” Oh I probably spent maybe two years– One year, I probably spent one year in Korea– Excuse me. Interviewer: “So after the war started you stayed on in Jacksonville for a while before they sent you to Korea, you didn’t go right away.” (23:50) Partly. Interviewer: “So you didn’t go to Korea right away after the war started?” No. Interviewer: “Okay it took a little while and then when you did go did your– Did the whole unit go or just your group of guys who were mechanics go? Did all the pilots and the aircraft all go together or was it just a smaller–” Yeah they went by train and sent us over by train, managed to fly a little bit probably 10-20 hours– Excuse me Off camera voice: “Here. Would you like one?” �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Oh no thank you.” Off camera voice: “I beg your pardon I should’ve asked you first.” Interviewer: “I don’t drink and interview. So now you’re– To get you— Now did you go to the west coast and then go to Korea from there? So you’re talking about taking trains, do you take a train to the west coast or did you fly the planes over?” No I didn’t, I didn’t come into the west coast until I came back. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you went over to Korea then where did you ship out– Or did you fly over or are you in transport planes or did you–” I went– Transport boats. Interviewer: “Okay so you went by sea, so where did you ship out from?” (25:55) We shipped out– Hmm. Interviewer: “It could have been Jacksonville.” What? Interviewer: “It could have been Jacksonville, it could have been, you know–” No, it was San Francisco. Interviewer: “Okay well that is the west coast.” Yeah. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “So how did you get to San Francisco?” By train. Interviewer: “Okay so you did– So you take the train cross country, get on a boat in San Francisco and what do you remember about the voyage from San Francisco to Korea?” Oh it was– It was a humdinger. It was a passenger boat and it had– It had– Oh my. Interviewer: “Did they still have cabins or rooms that they put a bunch of guys in?” Yeah, they had them down underneath in fact they– I had a rude awakening one morning and the six inch cannon fired outside of Japan. It fired several rounds of ammunition and it scared the hell out of me, I was abruptly awake and it was mostly Marine Corps, it was a mixture of airmen and– Interviewer: “Ground troops?” (28:50) Ground troops and it scared the crap out of us, it was– Interviewer: “So you had the cannon firing which was bad enough, was it– Were the seas rough did people get sick?” Yes they were rough, in fact I think I went over on– I was thinking most the time we were on– I was trying to think of the name of it and I lost that. Interviewer: “Okay, but you said it was a converted passenger ship?” Yeah. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get to spend a lot of time on deck or do they make you stay below?” Well we spent a lot of time on deck and it was because of storms and they would let us into Japan. Off camera voice: “You had a hurricane or something didn’t you?” Yeah we had a hurricane and it was– What the heck I can’t remember the name of it, it was– Seems like it was the Ward and it was a– It was a boat– Or passenger boat and it was splashing and it was diving and– Interviewer: “Did you think you were going to sink?” (31:55) I thought we were a couple times and it was a– It was– I was trying to think also what port we went into and I just forgot it. Interviewer: “Well it can be a lot went to Yokohama some went to Sasebo or Osaka, there’s different bases you could’ve gone to but you think you were in Tokyo Bay somewhere or Yokosuka or– Anyway, now when you got to Japan did they let you get off the ship?” Under guard, under guard and there was quite a few– There was quite a few civilians that were on board and they also got off from that ship cause it wasn’t very comfortable. It got us with the hurricane and they wouldn’t let us go in shore, it was a hurricane so we stuck around if you can imagine and I know I got sick. Interviewer: “So they kind of had to clean the ship before you got back on it.” Yeah. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Alright, now how long did you stay in Japan? Were you just there a few hours or a few days or?” I was there a few days and– Interviewer: “Okay, alright so we were talking about– Okay you were kind of briefly in Japan and then do they put you back on the same ship to go to Korea or do you get on a different one or?” No, we flew. Interviewer: “Oh you get to fly now, okay.” We flew over to Korea in a passenger plane. Off camera voice: “From where?” From Japan, Atami– Atami, Japan. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then–” (35:16) That was an air force base. Interviewer: “Right and then where did you land in Korea?” I ended up on– Well it was pretty tough but we ended up on a flight of trainers and I fell asleep and above the mountains and I’d fallen asleep and all of a sudden I got a change of pitch in the airplane. It was a fallen– It lost its power on the engine and it kind of startled me out of my sleep and I said I’d never jump from an airline and I did, I was probably about half way down the plane and I proceeded to say “I’m gonna jump.” I thought the airplane had changed pitch and it did and it kind of scared the hell out of me. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, but they got the power back though?” Yeah, oh yeah they got the power back cause I was halfway to the rear to jump out the tail end of the plane but I suddenly, red face and all, and afterwards I– Off camera voice: “I don’t know how much time he had but it’s been about an hour do you want to go on or do you want to– Because–” Interviewer: “Well, my time is actually pretty flexible.” Off camera voice: “What?” Interviewer: “I’m pretty flexible I mean were here probably like to just finish–” Off camera voice: “Okay, I was just trying to make it go a little faster–” Interviewer: “No, no we’re okay it sort of– It takes however long it takes. Okay, so the flight to Korea was interesting. Alright but you land safely in Korea, now where did they– What base were you at in Korea, so where were you working?” (39:10) I was appointed sergeant working for staff sergeant and I was– I had control of two fighter planes– Three flight planes and the crew that I had was– Interviewer: “These are the same guys you had in Jacksonville?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now where were you based, what air base were you on?” Ata– I think it was Atami. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “But that’s Japan.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay but in Korea though you were on a base?” Yeah, I was on a base in Korea. Interviewer: “But you don’t know which one?” No it was– Interviewer: “Were there any towns nearby that you can remember or?” No, it was– We had a Japanese– Some teenager and they– Off camera voice: “Didn’t they work for you?” (40:47) Yeah, they worked for us. Interviewer: “Were these Japanese or Koreans? You’re in Korea, you'd have Koreans.” It was Koreans. Interviewer: “Right, okay.” Yeah, it was Koreans they were washing planes and they weren’t mechanically involved in the planes, that was our job but we had a few Koreans that were– They were probably farmers, most of them were farmers and they also carried bazookas and they were– We kept an eye on them and killed a few of them but we got along with them mostly. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, you said you killed a few of them?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Were there people who were attacking your base or trying to steal things or?” They were stealing and they– A few of them were pretty reliable and they would be– Sometimes they would be caught out in the field and they would have firearms and they were actually farmers and this was in– This was in Japan. Interviewer: “In Japan rather than Korea?” Yeah. Interviewer: “So they were Japanese farmers carrying weapons around?” (43:57) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay…now but I guess– I’m trying to sort out here but basically your time overseas, did you spend a lot of time on a base in Japan or were you really just in Korea?” I went to Korea. Interviewer: “Okay, so you shouldn’t have been seeing a whole lot of Japanese farmers.” No. Interviewer: “If you’re in Korea. Okay so the guys carrying the guns would have been in Korea?” �Rowe, Burt Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, I’m just trying to keep that straight for the benefit of the audience here, okay alright.” Yeah that is correct. Interviewer: “Okay, now the base that you were on was this just Marine aircraft there or were there Air Force planes too or just your guys?” There were some Air Force planes, there are some fighter groups that were on ground. Interviewer: “Alright, now who provided security for your base? Did you have Army or Marines or?” (45:05) I don’t know, I don’t really know. Interviewer: “So it wasn’t you?” No, no but we had a sergeant of the guard and they were Marines and they furnished most of security around the base. Interviewer: “Now did you have any trouble with anyone ever trying to attack the base whether air attacks or artillery or anything?” No, there was nothing like that and there was one incident where we had to shoot the Japanese out of the air and that was– They were some bombers that would bomb the Koreans that were active against us. They would bomb outside of– Geez, trying to remember. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “So they were attacking whatever stuff closer to the front lines or would they attack your base as well?” Well they would attack the base, they were Japanese. Interviewer: “Or Chinese maybe, the Japanese weren’t fighting in this war. There were Koreans and you had– Let’s see the North Koreans and there was Chinese who were fighting you.” They were Chinese or Jap– They weren’t Japan but– Interviewer: “They were the bad guys.” (48:10) Yeah. Off camera voice: “You want a kleenex?” Yeah, they were– Interviewer: “Now would they send just a few bombers at you or a lot of them?” They would send fighter bombers and there would be patrols throughout the day. Interviewer: “Now were these– The fighter bombers were those the Chinese or Korean ones that were attacking you or are those the ones that you sent after them?” They were ones that we sent after them. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and so was it your aircraft that shot down the enemy bomber or was it anti aircraft guns? Cause you said you shot one down.” �Rowe, Burt Yeah we shot– We shot our share of them. Interviewer: “Okay, but was it your aircraft that shot the enemy aircraft down or did you have anti aircraft guns that were shooting?” We had guns that would– We would shoot and also we played baseball against– Interviewer: “Some of the Koreans?” Some of the– No the G.I’s, the G.Is and they would– I played first base and hard ball and I– We had Marines shooting at hurricanes and some of these cases we fired on Korean fighters and they– And sometimes they would happen during the ball games and there’d be strafing, that type. Interviewer: “Okay, so a little bit of seventh inning stretch at the wrong time. Okay, now most of the time was it pretty safe on your base?” (51:22) Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, now what kind of living quarters did you have? Did you sleep in tents or in barracks?” We slept in tents. Interviewer: “Okay, how big were the tents? Were they two men or six men or?” They were probably about six men tents and we’d get shot at once in a while and fact is in Korea I had a sergeant try to clean my clock and he tried to– Tried to impose his ugly body and I ended up trying to run through the door, you know it was– There was a little hand to hand combat. Interviewer: “Okay, now see, were you there– So you were there at least a full year, so were you there during the winter in Korea?” �Rowe, Burt Yes. Interviewer: “And what was winter in Korea like?” It was cold, it was cold and snow. Interviewer: “Did you have any kind of heater inside the tent or did you just have sleeping bags?” We had sleeping bags and cots. Interviewer: “But was there a stove or anything like that or?” Yeah there was heat and they were either kerosine heat and it was– Fact is I crashed through a door trying to get out the tent and we had a little bit of tent and quonset huts and we had fire pits outside, it– Pretty shaky sometimes. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you ever get to go into Seoul or into any of the larger cities or towns?” (54:40) Yeah, I got into Seoul and we didn’t really get anything in Japan. Fact is we got along with the Japanese probably as well as could be and we didn’t really have any hand to hand combat with the Japanese. Interviewer: “Of course you weren’t in Japan, but with the Koreans either though, I mean you didn’t have trouble with the Korean civilians.” No, no we didn’t have any combat with the– Not any known combat with the Koreans because we were– I like to think that we were too good for, but that wasn’t the case. We had some aircraft skirmishes but it didn’t– It wasn’t that much combat. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, so the planes that you were working on, would they come back with bullet holes or battle damage?” Oh yeah, yeah we would repair our aircraft and it had bullet holes. Off camera voice: “Didn’t you have some night time visitors?” Oh yeah, we had night time fighters that would– They would attack during the night time and they would share a good part of the combat. Interviewer: “And would they just send one or two of those at a time to kind of keep you awake or bother you?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, the bed check Charlie thing, yeah.” (58:25) Yeah, the bed check, accurately portrayed. Interviewer: “Now when they came at night, I mean did you have any aircraft that would fly at night to chase them off or did you just have the anti-aircraft guns? When the enemy attacks at night would you fight back or just let them go?” They would occasionally have night time fighters and they would try to– They would, the Koreans would, try to fight them off but they never completed any casualties but they– There wasn’t too much, there wasn’t probably too much combat between fighters. Interviewer: “Now if you think about the time that you spent in Korea, are there other kinds of memories you have of that, that you haven’t talked about yet?” �Rowe, Burt Yeah. Interviewer: “So what other stories could you bring in here?” Not to tell stories but there probably weren’t too many– Too many of approaches by women but they always get in the picture. Interviewer: “Okay, so there were women around looking for business.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah that was part of life in then, now were there– Would they be off of the base and men would go find them or would they come onto the base?” (1:01:25) Well sometimes they come onto base but they didn’t have too many. Interviewer: “Well there wasn’t a big town close by or anything.” No. Interviewer: “You were kind of out in the country some place, so lost a whole lot of business.” Yeah, we were probably– It was probably combat free if you figure out what I mean, they were non-combatant. Interviewer: “Alright well we were talking about just sort of what life in Korea was like and that kind of thing and you would talk some about encountering locals of different sorts. You had business women, if you will, who were around the base and so forth but you also had Koreans who worked for you on the base, they cleaned the planes. Did you have people who cleaned–” �Rowe, Burt The clothes? Interviewer: “Yeah the clothes and that kind of thing for you.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay alright now while you were in Korea did you pretty much stay with the same group of guys the whole time? So you came in with your crew and then stayed with them?” Well you pretty much– You pretty much stayed with them. Interviewer: “Right, because it wasn’t like you had– Sometimes you had people who rotated in and out of units and would kind of come and go but your guys all pretty much were with you the whole time?” (1:03:27) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did you leave Korea before the fighting officially ended? So there’s an armistice in 1953.” Yeah, well I would say the armistice of ‘53 was probably– Did I serve in Miami? Off camera voice: “Did you what?” Did I serve in Miami? I can’t remember well. Interviewer: “Well when you enlisted did you enlist for three years or for four years?” Three years. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, and if you went in ‘49 that would take you to ‘52, but you might have come back from Korea, had some time left on your enlistment and then they gotta put you somewhere. So you think you went to Miami then?” I went to Miami, yeah. Interviewer: “Now do you remember anything about the trip from Korea back to the U.S? How did they get you home from Korea?” Boat. Interviewer: “Okay and was that ride any better than the other one?” Yeah, it was a lot more peaceful and that was also a lot more wind and so we had the factor of wind. (1:05:20) Off camera voice: “And then he had to stay offshore.” Yeah, we had to stay offshore pretty much in place and it was– Interviewer: “Now was that when you were waiting to land in the U.S you had to stay offshore?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so kind of like when you went to Japan you had to stay offshore, but this time there was no typhoon.” No, there was some wind but nothing like what was going over. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did you land in the states?” San Francisco. Interviewer: “Okay, now did they give you a leave to go home or?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then after that you went to Miami?” Yup. Interviewer: “Okay, now was it your same group now at Miami or or did they put you in a different unit?” (1:06:32) Different unit. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what were you doing in Miami?” I was doing the same thing except I had civilian– Or not civilian but it was a lot quieter, we didn’t have any Japanese or Koreans or anything like that but we found our own contact sometimes with officers. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you’re off duty you’re out there having a good time and sometimes too good a time.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now were you still working on corsairs or did you have different aircraft?” �Rowe, Burt We had, probably different aircraft cause we had a lot of– Particularly in california and we had a lot of characters. I still say I lose it, the term, they– We had our skirmishes but we didn’t have any bullets coming back. Interviewer: “Alright, I was asking about the aircraft you were working on, what kind of planes did you have in Miami?” Seems like they had– They had more jets. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah cause jets had come in in a big way.” They had more jets protecting either practice missions or regular, a lot of that. Interviewer: “Okay, so did you get to work on the jets?” Yes, I did. I worked on jets and I didn’t fly any but– Cause we had foreign, well we didn't have foreign but we had– We had [unintelligible] and it didn’t amount to much of anything but there were a few fighters and most of them were– Most of them were flown by– (1:11:00) Interviewer: “Well you have Navy pilots or Marine pilots.” No, they were down in Southern Korea, most of them were corsairs. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay I guess we’ve been talking about– We kind of finished what we were talking about so the last part of your enlistment when you were in Florida and when you’re there you have jet aircraft and so forth to work on.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and that kind of thing. Okay, and then so basically– Now was that the last duty station you had?” �Rowe, Burt Yes. Interviewer: “So you finish that, okay.” Well I had– Interviewer: “Did you have any time in California or just in and out?” I was in and out of California and I probably– Maybe I have more liberty but we didn’t have the combat planes we had before cause most of them were has beens. Interviewer: “So you had older aircraft?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so now as you were getting to the end of your enlistment did the Marine Corps people encourage you to stay in? Did they want you to reenlist?” (1:13:23) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did they offer you?” They– I think that’s probably when I made sergeant. Interviewer: “Well, haven't you been sergeant already?” No, I was probably sergeant working under a staff sergeant. Interviewer: “Okay, but they offered you a promotion to staff sergeant?” �Rowe, Burt No, they didn’t– They didn’t combat or they just left us alone. Interviewer: “Okay, so they didn’t really try that hard to get you to reenlist?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so then when you left– So when do you leave the Marine Corps then? Is that ‘52 after three years?” Three years. Interviewer: “Okay, so ‘52 and what did you do after you got out? Did you go back to Michigan?” I bragged about the Marine Corps. No, I came back to Michigan and it was pretty calm. (1:15:00) Off camera voice: “And he married me.” Interviewer: “You got married, okay what year did you get married?” Oh I’d say– Off camera voice: “Go ahead, tell him.” Interviewer: “This is a test.” Off camera voice: “Tell him. What year did we get married?” I got married I think– I don’t know, I can't remember when we got married. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Oh that’s not good, okay. Okay but did you meet after he got back from Korea?” Off camera voice: “Yes.” Yeah, I got married back in, well I think it was back in Miami wasn’t it? Off camera voice: “Mhmm. Well we actually got married in Benton Harbor.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so you knew him while he was still in the Marine Corps? Okay, alright we’re sorting that part out. Okay and then what kind of work did you go into? What kind of job did you have?” Well I think I turned down a job of– Didn’t I? Off camera voice: “Well he went to work for Clark Equipment Company.” Yeah, that’s the most work that I did as a civilian. Interviewer: “Alright, and what did you do for them? Was it manufacturing or sales or repairs?” (1:16:40) I had a division– Or not a division but I had a– I can’t– Koreans? Off camera voice: “Nothing to do with Korea, he said what kind of work did you do for Clark Equipment Company?” Yeah, I ran the– What the hell was it? �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Well you’re operating a machine or were you leading a group of people?” No, I don’t– Leading, I was leading people. Interviewer: “Okay, so like a foreman?” Yup, general foreman. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you think back about the time you spent in the Marine Corps how do you think that affected you or did you learn anything from it?” Well I bragged about the Marine Corps, other than that I probably, I went to school I finished out the– Off camera voice: “Well you got your college degree.” Yeah my college degree. (1:18:43) Interviewer: “Okay, so you got G.I benefits from it.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now do you think you also grew up a little while you were in there?” Yeah, I didn’t brag quite so much. Interviewer: “Very good, alright well you’re not the only person to be proud of having been in the Marine Corps. So let’s close this out by thanking you for taking the time to talk to me today.” �Rowe, Burt Off camera voice: “We are here and there’s a lady that works here at this place and she brought her three sons up to meet him since we’ve been here because her first son wants to be in the Marines. I thought that was, you know, very, very special that she would want him to meet a Marine.” �Rowe, Burt � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoweB2177V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowe, Bert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12 Title A name given to the resource Rowe, Bert (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Bert Rowe was born in April of 1930 in Saginaw, Michigan, and grew up with his mother in Muskegon Heights. Before graduating high school in 1948, Rowe attended civilian flight school. After graduating, he enlisted into the Marine Corps in 1949 with the expectation of being placed into the infantry. Rowe attended Boot Camp at Parris Island, South Carolina. After Boot Camp, he was stationed at a Naval Air Station in Jacksonville, Florida, where he began flying for the Corps. He was assigned to a crew of three other mechanics and worked with the Marine Corps’ Corsair ground attack aircraft. When the Korean War broke out in 1950, Rowe’s unit was eventually sent to San Francisco, California, before being shipped to Japan. From Japan, Rowe’s crew from Jacksonville was flown to an airbase in Korea where he was appointed as Sergeant overseeing the maintenance of three fighter planes. The airbase would occasionally come under attack by groups of North Korean or Chinese fighter bombers, which prompted the personnel on the base to launch patrol squadrons in pursuit. At night, the base lived under threat of being attacked by a few, sporadic nighttime fighter bombers. In their free time, Rowe and the other troops played baseball while living in six-person tents. During the winter months, the troops relied on their sleeping bags, tent stoves, and outdoor fire pits for warmth. Rowe also recalled briefly visiting Seoul where he and the troops got along well with Korean civilians. Overall, his unit experienced little combat and spent much of its time repairing battle worn aircraft. After being shipped back to the United States in 1952 toward the end of his three-year enlistment, Rowe spent some time in Miami, Florida, serving with a different crew. In Miami, his crew maintained jet fighter aircraft--a newly introduced technology to the U.S. Armed Forces. Once officially discharged from the Corps in 1952, Rowe returned to Michigan, got married, and went to work for Clark Equipment Company as a General Foreman. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Rowe was proud about having served in the Marine Corps and was grateful for the GI Bill for helping him complete his higher education. He also believed that the Marine Corps helped him mature as an individual. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d1192d8dfceb69b8236926e873e1a46.mp4 46fcc7987e4b79b924cbcc1dc82a9504 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/48df6d4a0f2ad8851d6d47adaeb3b051.pdf dcd34ee67162417a3e427524aeeb0497 PDF Text Text Rosin, Jim Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Jim Rosin Length of Interview: (02:22:01) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Jim Rosin of Wyoming, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Jim start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born?” Okay, I was born in 1947, September, in Bay City, Michigan. And lived there all my adolescent, adolescent life. And went to high school at Bay City Central High School, graduated in 1965. And, in the summer of 1966 I went to work for a company in Saginaw, Michigan that sold bakery equipment. And then in the summer of 1966 I was asked to come down to Detroit for the physical for the military, for the draft. So, went down to Detroit, had the physical, came back, got the notice I was qualified for military service. Didn’t know when, at that time, Vietnam in 1966, early 66’, Vietnam was starting to ramp up. And there was a lot of publicity, but I don’t think there was the animosity towards Vietnam at that point. You know? So. Interviewer: “To back up a little bit, when you did the physical, how serious a physical was it?” Oh it was, it was serious. Yeah, they stripped you right down and took x-rays and did the whole work. I had appendicitis earlier that year and I had the scar on my abdomen and they were quite curious about that, what that was, you know. And all that, so. But again I was, I was cleared physically to be able to do that, so. (2:33). Interviewer: “Because I guess later on a lot of the descriptions are more cursory. They just, you know, “can you breathe?” Yes. Okay. But at that point they did not need the huge numbers that they would need. Even late in 66’ there was a huge–- very large draft out of Michigan. But you were doing your physical a little bit ahead of all of that. So, at the point when you’re actually called for the physical you don’t actually know whether or not you’re going to be drafted at all. This is just part of the system.” �Yes, correct. I was a part of a system and they didn’t have the numbers then–– the draft numbers then or anything like that. You were considered, I guess I was considered 1A, or something like that. So, which was fine. So I went through the summer, and waiting for the letter to come. And it finally came, I believe, the end of August of 1966 that I was to report for transfer. And going into the army in October 20, 1966. Interviewer: “So where do you report first?” I reported to the courthouse in Bay City, first, and they checked us off and then they loaded us on a bus, and took us down to Detroit again. The same place we had the physical–– Interviewer: “Through Fort Wayne?” And–– yeah at Fort Wayne. I couldn’t think of the name of it but that’s it, you know? And it was a really, kind of, a dilapidated place at that point. Interviewer: “It is” It was very rundown. And in fact, when we went down for the physical, we had to spend the night. And they put us in this hotel in downtown Detroit that was really nasty–– you know, in 1966. We didn’t even–– in fact, the guys wanted to go out and get a drink and get a beer and all of that stuff. Of course we weren’t of age or anything like that but, but we went–– we stayed in the hotel needless to say. And some guys snuck in some beer for us so we did have a couple beers that night, but, but yeah it was, it was an interesting start. And then–– go ahead. Interviewer: “I guess I was wondering, you know, you were, did you just accept the fact that at some point you were going to be in the service? You weren’t looking for ways to get out of it or––” No I, I had, I had, I did have some back issues when I was in high school. I had a infection in my lower lumbar vertebrae. But, they took x-rays and they said that’s all cleared up. You know, you’re not, you’re good to go. So, I said okay fine. I, you know, of course you’re a little hesitant about it but uh–– Interviewer: “And did you know anything about Vietnam before you went in?” Yeah we just thought–– we knew what we heard on the news and I didn’t study it, you know? We knew what we saw on TV and some of the fighting going on over there and some of the reasons we were there, you know? The reasons we were building up over there. (5:40). �Interviewer: “And what were those reasons at that point?” Well, it was just they think, I think they thought they would go in there and just take over. Clear ‘em out. But, it was a lot stronger force, you know, the NVA, the North Vietnamese Army, the Vietcong, and the, the influx of the Chinese weapons from China––from the communist China into Vietnam. You know, artillery, infa- artillery––smaller arms––and all that type of thing. So it was, it was interesting because, you know, there was no, when we got on the bus and we went down to Detroit, there was no dissension among the guys. You know they were all saying we got to go and do our best and hopefully we’ll get home, you know, in, in one piece. Interviewer: “Did you see yourself as going off to fight communism or just to because Uncle Sam was sending you?” Yeah in a way we did. We, we saw that communism was taking over in that part of the world and if we could nip that in the bud and help them, you know, that would be, that would be great. Interviewer: “Okay, so we’ve got you on the bus heading on down. Where are you going? I guess you got to Fort–– that was on the way to Fort Wayne.” Yeah well that’s when we, when we, where we took our oath. And that’s, that was an interesting, the way they did that. Have you heard of how they did that? Interviewer: “Go ahead.” They, they lined us up. We had to be in a straight line and then we took our oath, raised our hand, and took our oath as a service man for the, for the army. And then they said, after we had our oath, they said lower your hands, take one step forward. So, as a line we all took one step forward and then we were then in the military. We were then in the army. So–– Interviewer: “And now that you’re in, what did they do with you?” (7:43). Well, now that we were in, that evening they loaded us on a train, and in Detroit, and again the train itself was sleeper cars because we had to spend the night and it was pretty dilapidated as well. And it was noisy, and they gave us, I think, the last couple cars on the train–– the overnight cars. So we slept, or tried to sleep on the, on the train going down to Lexington, Kentucky, where our destination was for, eventually to go to Fort Knox. So the morning we got up, they said everybody shave and get ready to, get ready to get off the train and in Fort Knox. Oh, we did stop in Cincinnati. They brought some food on board and we stopped at the big train station in, in downtown Cincinnati. And it’s a big round building, I don’t know if it’s still–– I think it’s still there–– but I don’t think it’s a train station anymore. But it was interesting, the tracks were not in �good shape and the bathroom we had was kind of like a single stall. It had a metal floor in the bathroom, so you fill the sink–– when you’re going on a straightaway down the tracks–– you fill the sink with soapy water so you could get washed down a little bit and as soon as the train hit a curve all that water splashed out of the sink, onto that metal floor, and it was like an ice skating rink in there. And they were, guys were laughing and falling all over the place, and you know nobody got hurt but it was, it was kind of hilarious really. I mean it was you know, unbelievable. So then we, they offloaded us the next day in Fort Knox–– or in Louisville. (9:48). Interviewer: “Yeah, Louisville.” So then we got on buses again and they took us from there to Fort Knox. Interviewer: “Okay, was it Louisville or Lexington?” Lexington, sorry. Yeah, Lexington. Yeah it was Lexington. Interviewer: “Yeah okay, the bus was bussed to Fort Knox and what kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox?” Well, I can’t really remember. I remember we were getting off, we had to line up and there were a few gawkers there looking at us, you know? Laughing at us. You know, “here comes another group.” You know, that kind of a thing. But they were having such a build up at Fort Knox at that time the first thing they told us, they said, “you probably won’t be staying here long.” They said “Well where are we gonna go? This is where they have basic training.” “No, they got other plans for some of you.” So, we went, had something to eat. Then, they issued us our clothing. We had the long lines to issue us our clothing including our underwear and our fatigues, and all of our boots. Two pairs of black leather boots and the whole works. And then, we went and slept in a barracks for one night and then the next morning they took us out and they lined us up again, in three lines. And these were a lot of my friends–– we were still as a group–– a lot of my friends from Bay City, kids I went to school with, kids I knew, guys I knew, were with us. You know, I was thinking “Oh this is going to be pretty cool, we’re going to be going through basic training together” and all that kind of thing. Well, the army had other plans. And I kind of think they maybe did it on purpose a little bit. So, anyway, they lined us up and they, they count off “One, two, three.” So we start on the front line “One two three, one two three, one two three, one two three.” Second line the same thing, third line same thing. So, we were essentially breaking us down into–– with–– to thirds. So they said, “number one is staying here at Fort Knox for basic training, number two is going to Fort Carson in Colorado for basic training, which was a pretty nice place to go. And number three was going to Fort Hood, Texas for basic training. Well, I was number three. So you know, I had a couple friends that went with me down to Fort Hood, but I think we spent a day or two in or Fort Knox. Just getting indoctrinated and told what was going �to happen and what we were going to be doing. And then they took us to the airport, excuse me, and they flew us to Dallas. Texas. And from there, we took buses down to Fort Hood. So, again, it’s all kind of a blur right now. (13:08). . Interviewer: “Right” It’s been a few years ago. Interviewer: “Okay, and so where in Texas is Fort Hood?” Killeen. The city is Killeen. It’s not too far from Waco. Kind of–– Interviewer: “It was west Texas?” Southern central of the you know, south of Dallas, central Texas. Right off of one of the main highways so Fort Hood at that time was the headquarters of the First Armored Division, the First A.D. And so, they brought us in, we went into our barracks, we unpacked, they gave us foot lockers and bunks, and the first thing they did was, told us, showing us how to make our bed and they would be inspecting that bed every morning to make sure it was done right, and the blankets were tight enough that you could bounce a quarter on. You know, and all that stuff. So we had, one thing I remember I was smoking cigarettes at that point, and one thing I remember is the butt cans. What we had on the posts in the barracks filled, half-filled with water, that’s where you threw your cigarettes in when you were done smoking them, so. But, yeah I never thought about cigarette smoke at that point in time, everybody smoked. Interviewer: “Yeah, it was a little bit before the surgeon general’s report came out on that.” That was an interesting time. We––they would–– we were issued M14 rifles, the old M14s that had been around forever. We were instructed on how to take them apart and clean them and we were, we were timed. Once when they were apart we were timed on how quickly we could get them back together again and if you didn’t do it in a certain time, you did it until you, you got a certain time done. Interviewer: “Now did you have any experience with guns before you got there?” Yeah I–– my, my–– our family was, were hunters and my brother would take my deer hunting and that type of thing so I was, I was familiar with rifles. I would go pheasant hunting so I was familiar with shotguns, you know, but not to the degree that we did there. And you had a choice: you could, you could qualify with the rifle, the M14, or you could qualify with a .45 pistol, the 1911 pistol. So, we were issued pistols in case we wanted to qualify with that but these pistols–– �you know, I didn’t know anything about pistols–– but I could tell these pistols were well used and a lot of of the guys, me included, you could, you could stand five meters, 15 feet from a target and never hit it with these .45s. So we thought “no I don’t think we want to, want to qualify with a .45. So, later on when I became a medic, the medics could carry the .45 if they wanted to, but I carried the M16 so, but anyway. (16:53). Interviewer: “All right. Now one of the standard things about basic training is the assumption that you get yelled at and treated rather badly. Did that happen with you?” Oh yeah, very much so, very much so. They would–– we had one guy that was, unfortunate for him, I think they let him go after. But he was a bedwetter and they went, they got on him big time, you know? And it wasn’t his fault I think it was a medical–– it was a medical condition, you know. “How did you get this far?” and all this stuff, you know. They, they railed on him big time and all of a sudden he was gone. I think they–– they took him–– they took him out of the service. But–– Interviewer: “Did they get physically abusive or just yell at you and make you do weird jobs?” Well they would–– the only physical abuse we got was if they didn’t like what you were doing, you had to drop and give them 10 or 20 push-ups. You know, that was the physical abuse. There was no, there was no hitting, there was no. None of that stuff but it was intimidating enough and you know, if it was–– the infraction–– was serious enough rules wise, you know, you had to do 50 push-ups, you know, so. We––PT–– physical training on the field was, was interesting. We had a, a PT instructor that stood on a platform and we all lined up out there and we did PT every day. At, at Fort Hood, it was out in kind of the boonies a little bit. And there was an artillery battery there as well, and we would–– we would go out in the field and two fields over they would be shooting live artillery, you know. So that was–– that was interesting, you know. Big howitzers were firing and so we went out on many bivouacs overnight and the last bivouac–– I think basic training was eight weeks, I believe. (19:06). Interviewer: “Yeah, that was standard at that point.” Yeah, eight weeks. Well the first few weeks we–– they–– of course they cut your hair off, you know, which is not a big deal. And you had to get used too, in the barracks, there were no part–– stall–– partitions. You had to get used to sitting, you know, with everybody around you. You know, and the same thing with the showers, were wide open. So, you got used to that but the––I lost my train of thought. Anyway, we, we would go out on, on these bivouacs, you know. We would march out and the final bivouac was, I think it was a five mile march out with packs and rifles. Marching and running part of the time and then you would spend the night, two �nights, or three nights in the field. You would do more–– you would do more things in the field. More training and then you would come back. The night bef–– I was having some tooth problems. I had a molar that was bad, so the night before we went on this big march, they got me into the dentist and that’s an interesting experience too, for military dentists. They got me into the dentist chair and I had to have the tooth extracted, the molar. And apparently I had an unusual tooth that had two straight roots and one that was on a, on a curve. You know, so they numb me up as best they could and they got in there–– and with pliers–– and they started pulling and it went snap. It snapped. One of the roots broke off. And the dentist said “uh-oh” and I was, I was gone. I never fainted in my life but I was gone. So next thing I know they’re smelling salts under my nose and I’m, I’m waking up and they say “well we got the––we got the–– root out, you know, while you were sleeping. I say “Okay, that’s good” and they sewed me up and then they said ``Well you can’t, you can’t march tomorrow.” So I was lucky, I was–– I was taken out by, by truck to where the other guys were and of course they gave me a hard time. And then that night we had–– they just had issued us brand new beautiful olive drab colored sleeping bags, down filled, first class stuff all the way–– and I woke up that next morning and that whole top of that sleeping bag was blood. The tooth had–– the tooth had things. There’s a–– I just flip it over and do it the other–– go, go from the other side. So anyway, I cleaned it up as best I could but we did go home. Was in basic training for, I guess, maybe six weeks. Christmas came. And our hair was starting to grow out, they said “you’re gonna, you could go home on leave for, for a week and Christmas.” Our hair was starting to grow out, we thought “oh this would be good” you know? So, the night before we were to go on leave the Sergeant said “got a surprise for you guys, we’re taking you all to the barber tomorrow.” So that morning we had to get shaved again. Our whole head got shaved again. So, so needless to say, I wore a hat for two weeks when I was home on leave for Christmas. But then we had to go back to Fort Hood. And then finish our, finish our basic training, you know, in Fort Hood, so. (23:16). Interviewer: “Okay, so then once you get to the end of that, then what happens to you? Okay, well–– yeah, you, you–– during all this period there is an aptitude test that they, they gave you a couple times and they scored you a certain, a certain aptitude. And I guess I scored maybe a high enough aptitude that I qualified to be a medic. Medical training. Some were qualified for the mechanics, some were qualified for just straight leg infantry, you know, and that type of thing. So I think I was chosen, or not chosen, but I was told I could go on AIT, advanced individual training, down to Fort Sam, Houston and San Antonio. So, as a, to be a medical corpsman down in San Antonio. Interviewer: “Did you have the option to say no and just be in the infantry?” No. No, I thought this was a good deal. You know, in fact, my brother was older than I was with 10 years, and he was in the army, and he went to Korea but the war wasn’t on–– �Interviewer: “Right.” ––in the late 50s. He was in Korea and they made him a medic as well. So, he was, he was a medic as well in Korea for a year and my sister, again she’s older than I am but she’s an RN. She was never in the military but she was a registered nurse so it was kind of, you know, unusual that all of us in the family–– all the siblings in the family–– would become, would be going in the, in the medical area. So Fort Sam was, was a great place. It was ten weeks of training, we had an upscale barracks that we, we stayed in and they even had a swimming pool there you could go to. We didn’t go to there right away but it was interesting because the, the, the WAVES the women air, the woman air force or the women, whatever it was, the women army, whatever–– Interviewer: “Yeah.” ––Army corps, they had their basic training at Fort Sam and we would be, you know, we would be marching out there or doing, going to our classes and stuff like that and there would be, you know, these women marching by. They would be going through their routines and all that stuff and it was, you know, we, we of course gave them a hard time from the sidelines but, you know, so it was pretty intense training down there at, at Fort Sam and we even went to a point where we had movies of, you know, taking care of patients and stuff like that and we had a, a movie on baby delivery–– delivering a baby. It was probably, you know, a half an hour film on delivering a baby. What to look for and what not to look for, so. Little did I know that would come and–– come and help later on. But, anyway, we were there and after–– I think it was after five weeks of the ten weeks–– we could then go out to the surrounding area and leave the compound. Leave the base. It was an open base, it was a beautiful Fort and they had a polo field in the middle and at one end was the Brooke Army Hospital, which was the burn center for the military. That wasn’t very pleasant to visit there, but I can–– you can–– you never get that smell out of your nostrils when you went into that hospital. And we had to go in there and look at some of the burn patients and like I said, you never get that, that odor out of your nostrils. I can almost still smell it today, you know, of those poor guys that–– but it was good training that was–– (27:34). Interviewer: “How much of it was geared towards specifically combat stuff?” Well, a lot of it was–– not, not very much–– emergency stuff, you know, but most of it was geared to hospital care, you know, taking care of patients in the bed. You know, how do you change when they have a patient in the bed, you know, how do you put a catheter in? You know, how do you, how do you do, how do you take blood, how do you give shots, you know, and that kind of stuff. That was the majority of the training was and there was a lot of lectures and a lot of testing. You know, they would give you a lecture and then two days later, you would better take notes because there would be a test, you know? In fact, I still have those documents. I got them �out yesterday and I was looking at them, I think “did I write all this stuff?” Unbelievable. So, yeah it was good. It was good training. We knew we were–– a bunch of us knew we were going back to Fort Hood after the medical training and had a nice graduation ceremony down there. We all got our certificates and, but again, like you say, it was geared towards hospital training, not necessarily emergency training that we, that we went too, so. Interviewer: “Okay, so then after the ten weeks, so you go back then to Fort Hood––” Fort Hood. (29:16). Interviewer: “–– and do you get assigned to a unit at that point?” Yep. We went to the first of the 46th Infantry. It was a mechanized, it was a mechanized Infantry Division. Interviewer: “That would’ve been a battalion.” Or a battalion, yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “Because you’re a part of the First Armored Division at that point.” Yes and then–– I wasn’t there very long and we were changed to the 198th Infantry Brigade. So they told us, you know, any, any training we did then after, after AIT at Fort Hood. We were in these APCs, the All Armored Personnel Carriers, they took us out and we’d chase cows more than anything else out there in the fields, you know, we had a good time with that, so. But, anyway, yeah that was–– then they said “no you’re going to be–– you’re going to be straight leg infantry and you’re going to Vietnam.” This was in probably May or June of 1966 they said. Everyone wanted to know “when, when, when are we going.” Interviewer: “We’re in ‘67 now.” ‘67 yeah. “When are we going” and they said “well probably in the fall you’ll be deployed to, to, to Vietnam.” So, okay, so we did training and the bunch of us medics, there in the aid station, we had to give vaccinations and shots and they used the gun, the air–– air supplied gun, you know for figuring the shots, there were no needles. First time I got in line to do that, the medics were inside the aid station. They had an open window and on, on the window they had boxes of empty insulin, you know, containers and they would sit there in the aid station and they’d shoot these, these injection guns and they’d shoot these boxes off the sill in the aid station, and of course everybody turned white, you know, and you had to be sure–– we, we, we were instructed and told and trained how to do that–– you had to be sure, you had, they kept their shoulder still, you �know it was all shoulder no rear-end stuff. And a couple guys didn’t, they went like that, and it ripped them open and they had to get sewn up, you know. It was that, you know, that pressure that, that air pressure was strong enough that it ripped them right open. So, so we did that then we said “well––” they said “some of you medics we’d like you to, to get further emergency training.” We said, “Yeah, that’s probably a good idea.” You know, so they had Darnall Army Hospital on, on the base at Fort Hood, and so they said “we’ll, we’ll get you in the rotation and you’ll go into the emergency room at Darnall five days a week, twelve hour shifts.” Mostly the graveyard shifts, six a.m. till six p.m. or six p.m.–– Interviewer: “P.m. to a.m.” –– six p.m. to six a.m., overnight, and that was, that was very, very enlightening and we learned a lot. (32:55). Interviewer: “Now was it–– did they have a lot of business?” Yes they did and they–– was mostly guys were being foolish, of course, they were. One guy, I remember, once came in, he was driving his motorcycle, got on [33:11] asphalted road. He flipped his motorcycle on a freshly asphalted road and rolled into that asphalt and he, he had that stuff–– he was screaming–– he had that stuff embedded in his skin. He was in shorts and his legs and all that and the doctor came in, looked at me, says “clean him up.” I said “what,” he said “clean him up, scrub him up, get him ready to go, get him ready to go to surgery.” I said, I said “well okay” so I started to try to scrub this guy, you know, his arms and stuff and he was screaming so loud. They finally, they finally came in and they had to put him out to get this embedded asphalt out of his, out of his skin. So that was–– there was also one night–– there were also dependents on the base, wives and kids of these people that were assigned to Fort Hood–– and one night this, they brought this little boy in, the guy brought him in his arms, and he was blue, you know. I said, you know, “what happened?” Well he had, was blowing up a balloon and the balloon burst and part of it went down his throat. So, you know, we were able to get his mouth open and we just saw a piece of his, of the balloon in his, in his throat–– Interviewer: “Right.” –– and we reached in and pulled that out and it was–– it was amazing that as soon as we got that out his color came back, you know, he started crying, but it, but it was interesting. Then, another time they were doing parachute jumps and we always had to go out–– they took the, the, the ambulance from the hospital always went out to the field where they were landing and so we went out with them, working in the–– in fact that morning, I think was early morning jumps so we, we went out at 6 o’clock in the morning and one of the guys, unfortunately, his chute didn’t deploy until about–– they said about 20 feet off the ground–– so he landed on his feet but he was �dead. You know, so, we had to pick him up and take him back and that was, that was horrific, that was really bad. So, you know, and–– and then they made us watch autopsies. We had one in particular was a, was a woman they brought in and she was mustard yellow–– young woman had cirrhosis of the liver, she died and when they opened her up all her internal organs were the color of French’s Mustard, you know, so. A couple guys got a little woozy, you know, in there watching this, watching when they went through the process but again it was–– it was good experience, you know, looking back on it. It was good experience for what we were going to get into–– in a, in a few months, so. (36:46). Interviewer: “Alright, and so how long then did you spend at Fort Hood once you were there as a medic?” I was–– well at Fort Hood I was there after AIT, which was probably in May of ‘67 until, till, October of ‘68. Interviewer: “Alright, well ‘67 still.” Still ‘67 yeah, sorry. Interviewer: “Okay, alright––” Through the summer. Through the hot summer in Texas. Interviewer: “And at this point now do you get orders for Vietnam?” (37:21). Yeah, at that point in time they said we’re going to–– you know, normally people were getting orders to Vietnam as individuals. They said “we’re going to take you over as a unit, as the 1st of the 46th Infantry, 198th Infantry Brigade, as a unit” and we said “well how does that work?” So, they said “well we’re working out the details right now, go home for a couple weeks.” So we went back home, this was probably in August of ‘67. We went home and then came back to the Fort Hood and they had made up their mind what they were going to do at that point. Interviewer: “Now, what was it like to be back home there? You know you’re going to go to Vietnam. It’s now the summer of ‘67 and things have heated up some more, I mean.” Yeah. We were–– we spent a lot of time watching, watching the news. And then the protests, were already starting at that point, you know, and in fact we had to wear–– in order to get a military discount on the, on the airlines, we had to wear our uniforms, so we were a little bit hesitant at that point in time, September of ‘67, or August, of wearing our uniforms to the airport. You know, thinking that we may have, we may have problems. But, it really wasn’t an �issue. There was only one time, going down to Texas, coming back from Michigan from Bay City. I think we landed in Kansas city and we were kind of like the last ones to board, where they had open seats. So they actually took a couple of us military off the airplane in Kansas City to fill it with a paid passenger. We were a bit upset about that and one of the–– I met, even a man, remember one of the guys from American Airlines gave me his card. He felt so guilty, so bad, he gave me his card. He said “you ever have trouble, you know, in another flight, you give them this card and I guarantee you won’t have any, anymore problems.” So we were concerned that we were going to be–– we’re going to miss our bus, you know, to Fort Hood and we were going to be late, you know. We didn’t want to be late. So, and it, it worked out well. We got, we got, we got back, yeah. It was hard to say goodbye to your parents and, and my girlfriend at that point. So, yeah it was–– it was difficult. It was difficult. (40:15). Interviewer: “Okay. So, but then they figured out how to get you to Vietnam and what method did they use?” Okay, they–– they said “this is going to be a little unusual, we’re going to take you as a brigade. We have two merchant marine ships lined up in Oakland, California and we’re going to ship you over the Pacific by merchant marine ship and it’s going to take about three weeks, we’re going to cross the Pacific for three weeks.” Yep, and of the guys raised their hand, his hand right away he says “does that count as our time overseas?” You know, he was concerned about the 12 month–– the 12 month stay overseas. They said “Oh yeah. As soon as you clear the international day or the international border outside in the Pacific, your time starts, your overseas time starts.” So they–– they loaded us, and we had to get all packed up. We had our big duffel bags and we had our M16s at that point. We had qualified for using our M16s and they packed us up and they took us to the airport, commercial flights, and I think we filled that airplane. And they took us into Oakland Airport in California and Oakland Airport at that point in time, in 1967, was, was kind of like it wasn’t a real busy airport. It wasn’t well known, but they unloaded us off the, off the plane onto the tarmac. We had to wait under the plane to get our duffel bag–– the big, long duffel bag–– and then we had our rifles and they lined us up and they marched us through the terminal. I bet–– I think that everybody thought they were being invaded, you know, the looks that we got of the, at the airport were interesting. Again, they loaded us onto buses sitting in front of the airport and we took a short trip to the harbor in Oakland where they loaded us on two ships and we had–– they already had us, you know, names and, and they checked us off as we, as we boarded the ship and then I think we spent one night on the ship and then they–– we–– shoved off and they had a band playing and, and all that stuff. It was kind of, it was kind of interesting. It was kind of nice, you know, so. It was exciting to go underneath the Golden Gate Bridge, you know, but the sleeping accommodations and the ship was–– like I said it was a merchant marine cruise ship is actually what it was. It was a converted cruise ship. It was called the Upshur, u-p-sh-u-r, the Upshur. USS or the U.S Upshur. So, anyway they had it fitted out for a troop carrier and we were down in the lower, in the lower bilges of the ship and they had us stacked four high �and you had barely enough room to–– I was a lot smaller than I am right now. You know I was probably only 120/130 pounds at that point–– and you had barely enough room to roll over before you bumped into the guy, you know, above you. So, and we had to sleep with our rifles. They didn’t have a safe place to store them. There was no ammunition but you had to sleep in the bunk with your rifle. You know, so we spent three weeks in bed with our rifle so–– (44:23). Interviewer: “It’s a good thing you were small.” Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. That’s right and that was, that was–– it was warm down there and a lot of the guys ended up going up on deck to sleep, you know. It was stuffy, smelly, you know, it was all the above. Interviewer: “Okay, now a lot of people–– I’ve talked to a lot of people who shipped out of San Francisco and one of the things that comes into a lot of the stories is once you kind of, you know, get out to sea, you start to hit swells coming in and the sea starts to roll and everybody gets sick.” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Did that happen with your guys?” Well, we were–– we were in the infantry battalion and we were the medics. We had a doctor that was that–– doctor… I can’t remember his name now. He was with us. So we set up for sick call every morning. There were 1100, 1100 of us on the ship and we set up for sick call every morning on the ship and we logged in 700 cases of seasickness. What was very–– I mean, the ship–– when we first started out the ship would roll side to side. Port to stern, port to–– Interviewer: “Starboard.” Starboard. Port to starboard, which was–– you know, everybody kind of got used to that. And as the fuel was used up on the ship they told us “it’s now going to be started. It’s now gonna start going bow to stern.” So we had–– once it started going bow to stern–– we had everybody get sick again. You know, the same, the same thing. There were–– on that ship what do you do? You had PT, you know, physical training. You ever try to do a push-up on a ship that’s going up and down? That’s an interesting exercise, and they did give us the, the order of the golden dragon when we crossed the International Date Line. They took–– they had cranes on board and they took a couple guys and strapped them in the cranes and they dipped them in the ocean, you know. That was their initiation to crossing the International Date Line. So, but we played cards, you know, and then in the morning–– I never got, never got seasick, woozy, but never got seasick. Except one morning when we had these tables that had little ridges on them and we had �metal trays and the trays would slide back and forth. And you were eating breakfast and there was a guy scraping trays and there was a port–– there was a hole there in the, in the counter and that would go right out, right out of the ship. Well, he would scrape two trays and then he’d throw up into that hole. He would scrape two trays and then throw up into that hole and that kind of got to me. I finally had to turn around and not watch him, you know, but so we, we stopped and we called it. It was–– the ship was called the USS Upshur–– like I said it was a, it was a cruise ship that they used to run cruises from Miami to Cuba so the interior of the ship, the upper decks, were quite, quite nice. You know, they were–– they were very, very nice, and that’s where the officers stayed, of course, in those bunks and the officers. About halfway over, three quarters of the way over, before we got to Taipei or to Taiwan where we stopped, we ran out of fresh water for showers. Oh man, I don’t know if anybody’s ever taken a shower in salt water, but the soap turns to grease, is what it does. The salt water turns the soap to grease. So you went into the shower and you came out feeling dirtier than when you went in. As a medic, we were very lucky the–– we were complaining to the doctor that was on the ship as an officer–– he says “I’ll sneak you up to the officer’s quarters.” So he snuck us up one at a time and we were able to use their showers which was–– they still had fresh water. So, that was one of the perks I guess of being a medic on that, on that ship. But, we stopped in Taipei and they refueled and then we went from Taipei–– it wasn’t very long after that to Vietnam. You know, so. (49:23). Interviewer: “Okay, and how do you go ashore in Vietnam and where do you land?” Okay, they took us–– they took us off the ship–– I can’t remember, I think it was Da Nang. No it wasn’t, it was Vũng Tàu which was South, quite a way South. And we had to climb down the rope ladders on the outside of the ship and you threw your gear–– they brought our gear to us, you know, they, they’d taken that out of the ship. But they loaded us onto an LST, which is a big, hollow, you know, ship. What is it? Something, whatever tank. A tank–– (50:07). Interviewer: “Landing Ship Tank is the––” Landing Ship Tank, right. The big, big room that was about a hundred, hundred–– seems like it was 100 yards long by, you know, 50 yards wide by ten yards high. And as we were going onto that LST they issued everybody live ammo for the first time, for the M16s. I’m thinking “they’re gonna put all of us in this can and they’re gonna give us some of–– give all of us live ammo. What’s going to happen if somebody lets loose some shells or, you know, fires some shells in this–– in that LST.” But thankfully nothing–– nothing happened. It was hot–– it was early–– late–– September, early October–– in Vietnam. It was still very warm. So we ended up, in the LST, we didn’t sleep inside. We ended up going up on deck and sleeping up on deck, you know. It was hard but it was, it was–– at least it was cooler, cooler so. Interviewer: “So you’re going North along the Vietnamese coast––” �Yes. Interviewer: “–– and how long did that trip take, do you think?” That took–– I think we were on the ship a couple days. It took us, it took us a while to get up there. You know, we had two days and two nights on the ship eating sea rations. They didn’t have, you know, hot meals on board. You know, so we got our first–– we had some sea rations, dehydrated food and stuff when we were in basic training and, and that so. But yeah, it was–– there are no showers, you know. Some bathrooms, but no showers. And so they unloaded us as a unit in Da Nang. We came off the LST, they actually rolled it kind of up on shore like they do the tanks. The doors down and we walked, we walked out as a unit, flags waving and all that stuff, so whatever, you know. Interviewer: “Alright, now were there media there taking pictures?” I think so because I–– there were some pictures that I got from the paper, the newspaper, showing the guys coming ashore, so. Interviewer: “So we’ve now successfully gotten you as far as Da Nang in Vietnam.” Yep. Interviewer: “And at this point what is your initial impression of Vietnam?” We were coming up the coast, it was a very beautiful country. It was green, you know, we could see the Central Highlands at one point, in the background. You know, the mountains and it was a, it was a beautiful country. You know, we couldn’t–– we didn’t see, of course, the interior of the country at that point. The rice paddies and all that stuff, but it was very green and, and a lot of military activity going on as we were coming up the coast. I mean a lot of flights, a lot of airplanes, a lot of helicopters, you know. Didn’t hear much shooting at that point in time but, you know, we came, you know it was–– kind of an interesting tour to begin with, I guess I should say. So yeah. (53:23). Interviewer: “Okay, and then you land at Da Nang and then what happens from there?” Okay, in Da Nang we were offloaded off the LSTs and then they took us on–– I think they weren’t, we didn’t have buses–– I think, we–– they put us in the big trucks. The deuce and a halves with the, with the canvas covers and we were loaded in there with our gear and we went to Chu Lai, which kind of like, was like a holding area. [Chu Lai was a major base south of Da �Nang] Maybe something near the airport there at Chu Lai and we spent a couple nights there. I don’t think they quite knew what they were going to do with all of us and they were still building. There were two hills there. They said “some of you are going to be on Hill 54, some of you are going to be on Hill 69.” Okay, so what does that mean? Well it means that the highest part of that hill was 54 meters high or 69 meters high–– Interviewer: “Right.” –– you know, so. That was fine, so we ended up–– I think they were, the engineers were still building that, that base on Hill 69. Putting the huts up, you know, and doing all that stuff. So we were probably one of the first ones into Hill 69. We had a perimeter, it was a fenced perimeter. We had a–– we had a manned gate, you know, an armored gate–– a guy at the gate. And it was interesting because as you were coming into the, to the hill, there was a little village there, and kind of had been set up there to help the GIs with laundry and you know, all that kind of stuff, so. Which was–– which was fine. You know, we were right off of, I think it was Route One, Highway One in Vietnam and lots, lots of traffic, you know, lots of military. A couple of the guys–– they shouldn’t have done it but they did anyway–– we’d be going–– they’d be going down in a Jeep down Highway One and the Vietnamese had these little three wheeled carts, you know, and they’d come up next to you and they’d push ‘em, you know. And the carts would almost tip over and they’d laugh, you know. They were–– they were just being a typical, typical teenager at that point in time, so. Interviewer: “Now, before you went to Vietnam did you get any kind of information or indoctrination about the place or the people or how to behave?” (56:11). Yeah we had–– we had all those lectures and all those briefings when we were at Fort Hood before we–– before we left. And you know, they–– they told us–– I think they had some ex people that were–– had been there come in and talk to us and told us, you know, what to expect. You know, they didn’t know where we were going to be or what we were gonna do at that point in time. But, if you were going to do this, this is what you–– you’re going to expect. You know, expect that if you’re infantry you’re going to be out in the field. You know, they indicated like 100 percent of the time, you know, which guys were really concerned about that, but, yeah. They gave us, you know, politically what was happening over there, who was in charge politically, and what the communists were–– were planning to do–– that we knew, or tried to know what they were trying to do, and who the leaders were and not that we were in that area, but–– but, you know, it’s–– it was–– they were pretty good about giving us, indoctrinating us, as to what was going on over there, so. Interviewer: “Okay. And did they tell you things about how to treat the civilians or anything like that?” �Oh yeah. Yeah, they–– of course they did. I mean you have a–– you have a military code of conduct, and that’s applies to all servicemen, you know, that to have respect for the people and the civilians and respect for your own servicemen, you know, and–– and that–– and that code of conduct, they kept drilling that into us, you know, and I think it stuck, you know. In fact, it still sticks today, you know, they drilled us–– they drilled that into us, you know, that–– that thoroughly, so. Interviewer: “Okay. Now, you’ve gotten as far as as Chu Lai and that’s a place near the coast, that’s been described to me–– it’s got a very sandy and flat––” Yeah it was sandy and flat. They had a very large–– there was a air force–– there was an air force base there and we had–– there was a very large PX there which had everything in it. It was very, very nice. It’s very, very large. In fact when I was there at Chu Lai at the PX, I bought a movie camera. A Super 8 movie camera and the guys “what are you going to do with that?” I said “I’m going to take some pictures when I can.” You know, so it ended up–– the movie camera I bought, the Kodak Super 8, fit perfectly in an ammo pouch, you know, on my–– on my waist. So I got an extra ammo pouch and I tried to take that, that movie camera, whenever I could, out in the field. I didn’t take it so much during the monsoon season, but yeah, the area was, was, was very nice. I mean, you had the beach, you know, you could go swimming on the sandy beach and the waves were very tough. We did a lot of–– tried to do a lot of body surfing at that point in time. We didn’t have surfboards, we had–– we tried to do body surfing in the salt water, but yeah, it was a, a–– Chu Lai was, was, was quite nice. And you had the backdrop was the Central Highlands behind it, so. (59:52). Interviewer: “Okay. I guess I might have been told like at least in the summer or whatever, it got very hot though, didn’t know, the sand got very hot.” Yeah. Interviewer: “But you’re there because you’re coming in, at least towards the end of–– toward the end of the year, at this point––” Right. Interviewer: “–– so you’re based on, on Hill 69 at this point.” Yep. �Interviewer: “Now are you assigned specifically to a company or are you with battalion headquarters or––” Yeah I was in headquarters. Headquarters company because I was a medic and we had the–– we had the aid station. We had the aid station there so I was in headquarters companies. (1:00:24). Interviewer: “Okay. Now, did you stay in the aid station or would you go out within–– No. Interviewer: “–– the field with, with the line units?” I was with Company E when I went out in the field. That was my assignment and Company E was a mortar battalion and we–– we usually, because the guys carried these 81 millimeter mortars, very heavy. They had one guy carried the base, one guy carried the tube, and a bunch of guys carried the ammo. We were usually the last ones to go into the LZs, so all the other companies went in first–– into an LZ, on a helicopter and, and then they brought the mortar platoon which is us in there, so. We had lot of training with mortars there off of Hill 69–– they had an area where it was uninhabited. We would train for the mortars to go off and the guys used to like–– I used to go up and watch them and they’d always like the medic to, to drop the 81 millimeter mortar in the tube and I think that’s probably that and the LAWS, the Light Anti-Tank Weapon, like a, a small bazooka. I think that’s where I lost my hearing. I’ve, I have two hearing aids, you know, but that’s where I started to lose my, my hearing–– for, for those exercises. Because we never–– you never wore headphones, you never–– you never put earplugs in. I mean we had them, but nobody used them, you know, so, but–– Interviewer: “Okay. Now on Hill 69 did you have–– did you–– were you in tents, were you in kind of cabin things?” Yeah we were in–– yeah in–– on Hill 69 they had an assortment. They had officer’s quarters which were corrugated metal, you know, and wood framed buildings and then we had a church there, down in the gully. And that was again plywood and corrugated metal. And the huts that we stayed in–– the aid station was corrugated roof and wood sides. The huts that we stayed in had screens on the sides. I think they had a metal roof and then a wooden floor, you know, that we stayed in. The huts that we stayed in–– with the bunks that we stayed in, they all had mosquito netting, you know, in the–– so to keep the mosquitoes at bay, so. And then just down from us on the–– at the aid station, up on top of the hill there was the mess hall and the cooks–– the cook’s barracks there, and then we had bunks all over–– all around–– Hill 69, where they–– where guys would go for guard duty. You know, barbed wire and then bunkers, barbed wire, bunkers all the way–– all the way around. �Interviewer: “Sorry, now was this a battalion sized base or company sized or––” (1:03:46). I think it was company sized base. It wasn’t the whole battalion. Interviewer: “So a lot of the time battalion–– the companies would be out in the field. They would maybe rotate in and out.” Yeah. Yep. Interviewer: “Okay. But you went out in the field with companies at different times, yourself?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay. Can you describe your first time going out in the field?” Yeah, we–– the first time they took us out we walked from Hill 69–– would be probably going West towards the Central Highlands–– and they purposely took us, you know, into some very wet areas. Rice paddy areas we had to go through and all that, and that was, you know, that was a very enlightening experience as to what you were going to be going through. And then, before that, as a medic we had to make sure everybody in our, in our company or whatever, they had malaria pills and there was a–– malaria was, was very prevalent over there. And so we had to make sure that they had, had malaria pills. And the first thing you learn over there is: once you go through a rice paddy your boots and your shoes and your socks are wet, you know. What do you do with that? You slog through the day and then you better have a second pair of socks at night. So, you try to rinse ‘em out with water and then the only way to dry them, you know, we– – you stuff ‘em inside your shirt where it’s warm and you sleep and hopefully the next morning your socks are fairly dry but they’re drier than the ones that you, that you took off, so. So, but–– (1:05:43). Interviewer: “Now, when you went through those places would you get leeches too or was that somewhere else?” Yes, very much so. Not–– not so much in the lowlands, the leeches. We had a lot of guys–– a lot of guys were scared to death of leeches, you know, and–– but the lowlands was mostly the rice paddies and you tried to go up on the berms, you know, for the rice paddies and walk along and you go through villages and of course the–– the kids would come up and come up to you and the words they knew was “give me gum.” That’s what they wanted, you know, or “give me candy, give me gum” you know, so. First couple times we didn’t run into any trouble, you know. Not–– �I wasn’t there too long and one night we heard some shooting off the hill, towards the Central Highlands, and my first experience to see illumination rounds overhead, you know. We launched illumination rounds from our hill, out, you know, phosphorus rounds, and it was amazing how, how much that lighted everything up, so. And at that point in time the starlight scopes was just coming into play. The–– a lot of the infantry guys–– they were very expensive at that point, somebody said they were like $4000 a piece for these starlight scopes. But you look through them at night and what it does, it magnifies the starlight or the, you know, the moonlight. And everything has a green cast to it–– a green–– so it’s quite, quite interesting to see, so. Interviewer: “Now, by way of weapon arena is your unit equipped with M16s at this point?” Yeah, we were–– we had M16s. I was equipped with an M16, I could have carried a .45 but I didn’t want to carry a .45, so. How many times I used the M16 to fire–– when we were in firefights? Not very often. I was kind of sitting back waiting if somebody got hurt, you know, so. A couple times I did, you know, you fire into the–– into the jungle–– you don’t know what you’re hitting, you know, but, so. It was–– then we had a–– the automatic machine guns. We had one guy–– was a machine gunner, and what I always was amazed at is these guys' walking point, you know. They were the head of the column, you know, walking point and they rotated, you know, not the same guy all the time but they, they rotated so yeah. They were–– it was something to watch those guys. How careful they were, you know, not only were they stepped, but looking and watching, you know. They had all those people behind them, they were–– they were point. They were–– they were the ones responsible. (1:08:48). Interviewer: “Okay. Now you had mentioned before that you’re assigned, at least initially, to the–– to the mortar company and they wouldn’t be up front but did–– would within each company though did you have your own point?” Yeah we had our own. We had our own rifle, we had our own machine gunner and we still walked in the column even though we weren’t, we weren’t the first ones to go through, go down, but we were–– we were there and we were usually in the back and the–– the point guy would give us a, give us a grid or whatever. You know, somebody would give us, give us a grid of where to shoot in. And then later on in the year, we got paired up with an F.O., forward observer, and his radio man–– out of the Hill 54, was the artillery hill. And I got to know those guys very well. In fact, we shared a tent when we were out in the field, three of us. So, they would call in artillery for us, so. Interviewer: “Alright. Okay. Now to kind of go back to the earliest, in the first few months of your tour–– before the Tet Offensive starts in early ‘68–– what were those first few months like?” �Well we were–– we were very apprehensive, you know, we didn’t know what to expect. You know, you thought as soon as you left the hill that you would be shot at, you would be, you know, you would be–– they had mortars too, you would be mortared or whatever. But it was very rare at the first couple months, off the hill, but then when we started–– maybe we were there a month after we’d done a couple, a couple walking patrols through villages and stuff like that. Search, searching and clearing the villages, making sure there were no weapons in there and, and all of that. People weren’t real happy with us coming into their huts, you know. And, you know, we did some–– they knew we were a medic, you know? They–– we did some civic action there as a medic to try to help some local people. You know, try to get on their side, try to show them that we’re here to help them, not to–– not to hurt them, as far as the villagers were concerned, but you never–– you never knew. They were concealed very well, the VC–– the Viet Cong were, were very well concealed and you were, you were very skeptical about any, any young man there. That was he a VC or was he just a, you know, was he just a regular villager, you know. You didn’t. You didn’t. Or a farmer. You didn’t know, so. Interviewer: “Alright, now you initially were walking out, but then you would start to go out and combat starts, you go out in helicopters.” (1:11:54). Right. Right. They–– once, I think once they figured we were used to what the thing was like out there, what the situation was like, they started bringing helicopters in and we had to go out on combat assaults. I think I counted 13 combat assaults that I went out on and most of the LZs, the landing zones, that we were into were hot LZs. That meaning they were shooting, there was some–– that’s the reason we were there, as we were going out to try to, try to, try to take care of that. And we would go in with the helicopters, with the hueys, and the door gunners will be firing the whole time until we got well off, well off the hueys into cover. So, then we would go–– usually landed in like a rice paddy or something like that, some place where they could get the helicopter in. Then you went into the jungle from, from there, so. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right, and now as the medic how–– how much of a pack did you carry?” I carried my, my–– it was probably about all my bandages and all the stuff I carried. It was probably a package of about, you know, maybe 16 inches long by 12 inches high by 12 inches wide, and pretty heavy. Plus you had your normal pack on your back, and it was the whole thing–– somebody said the whole thing weighed about 70 pounds. So you, with your rucksack and all your gear and your water bottles and your ammunition and the medic stuff. So they said “You can–– as a medic you can wear a red cross armband on your arm, if you want in the field.” And he said “No, that’s just a target,” and we figured that was just a target for, for the for the enemy. And, so I also carried–– as a medic I carried morphine and we had to, we were drilled in into our head that we had to guard that morphine, keep it on our bodies at all times because guys will be guys and they will try to get high, you know, with morphine. So that’s the other, the �other, the other area of Vietnam which is marijuana. Marijuana was very prevalent over there. You could go into a village and they would be sitting outside their huts and they would be selling marijuana. And you could buy a pound of marijuana for $16. And–– which the guys were pretty good about not smoking that when they were out on patrol or out in the field, but going back to base camp, you know, it was a different–– it was a different story. You walk around the base camp at night and you can smell it big time. What happened later on in the tour the–– the VC, the Viet Cong, started lacing the marijuana with heroin. And they wanted to get the guys addicted, and then they pretty much–– the army pretty much shut all that down. I mean if you smoked marijuana it was–– it was almost a crime, you know, it was a felony. So, yeah, so that was–– that was interesting stuff. Interviewer: “Did that policy have any effect?” It did. Yeah. It stopped–– it stopped probably 70 percent of it, you know, but there’s still guys that still wanted to–– wanted to do that. I tried it, you know, we all tried it, you know, and it didn’t–– it didn’t do anything for me. So I’d still rather have a can of beer, you know. (1:16:19). Interviewer: “All right. Now how long was it before you had any combat casualties to treat?” Initially, one of the–– probably within the first month we were on patrol and we were walking a single column along a hedgerow and the, the sergeant told us “Walk down the edge of the hedgerow, come around, and come back up the other side.” So the guys are looking at that, you know, some of the guys go, “We’re not going to walk that extra block down to the edge of the hedgerow, so let's cut through the hedgerow right here. That looks like there’s an opening.” And yeah, they had booby-trapped and–– or they had put booby-traps, explosive booby-traps, or they would put false ground with holes with, with punji sticks. I don’t know if you know what a punji stick is. It’s sharp and bamboo dipped in–– dipped in feces, you know, so that would cut through the, the combat boots over there. Were canvas on the sides, they had steel toe, steel bottoms, but they were canvas on the sides. But the punji sticks were designed to go into the upper ankle and lower leg, you know, and so that was–– once they got into that–– they weren’t necessarily–– we lost a couple that were blown up when they, they tried to cut across these, these hedgerows. And then you had to bring medevacs in, then you had to surround the area to make sure that the medevacs wouldn’t get shot at. But yeah, we had–– we had a few–– had a few guys like that. So, we lost–– I think as far as a battalion goes, we had 25 medics that went over there. Five of us came back unhurt. The other–– there was a few, there was a few killed over there killed in action and then there was, a lot of them were wounded. Some of them–– some of them got sick, they mean Dysentery and, and that type of thing over there was very prevalent. You know, there was no sanitation. On Hill 69, I could go back a little bit. �Interviewer: “Yeah.” Visualize no bathrooms on Hill 69. Outhouses and urinals were–– were round rocket tubes they had taken off the, the helicopters, buried in the ground and so that was your urinal. And the outhouses were outhouses, and no plumbing. So, what we had to do was, we had to set up. We took 55 gallon drums, put ‘em in the outhouses and that’s where you went into. You sat down, you went into a 55 gallon drum. What do you do with that? There’s no plumbing, so every day or two we would pull those drums out and the medics were in charge of seeing that this was done properly. We would pull those 55 gallon drums out from behind the–– from behind the outhouse, throw kerosene in there, and then newspaper and light it and burn the stuff until it was ashes. Then you’d move ‘em back in and then you’d start again and so–– (1:20:04). Interviewer: “You have a sense of smell left after that?” Yeah well you, you tried to stay down, you know, down wind or away from the wind blowing and that stuff. But what happened was during the monsoon season, which was winter months, those things filled up with water and they wouldn’t burn. So then you had to bury the stuff. You had to go out there with shovels and try to bury the stuff and it was not–– that was probably–– the guy said that was probably the worst duty that they could ever have, you know, was taking care of the crap, you know. Interviewer: “Did you let any of the Vietnamese onto the base or they have to stay outside?” Yeah, no they had some workers there in the–– in the mess halls and that type of thing, so. Serving–– serving, you know, meals and all that kind of stuff, so. Yeah there was–– yeah and they were vetted, you know, supposedly they were vetted, you know, before they came in. And, you know, they would line up every morning at the gate. You could see ‘em out there on the gate and they would come in and work. They were paid. You know, they were paid and a couple of ‘em I think worked in the–– a couple of ‘em worked in the motor pool there that we had, you know–– mechanics and stuff like that. So, yeah. (1:21:33). Interviewer: “Okay, alright. Now I think one of the incidents that, that came up and I think was this in December? There was a point where you got to put your obstetric training into use.” Yeah. Interviewer: “When was that?” �Okay. In December we were–– we had gone out on a combat assault quite a ways out on the–– on the foothills of the, of the Central Highlands, near a river. And one morning we were walking along and along the river, it came into a small village and they–– a couple people ran up to us “Mamasang having baby, Mamasang having baby.” I said “Okay.” So they call me “Doc,” they say “Doc go take a look.” What’s going on? So, I go and take a look in the hut and this woman is–– is in labor big time. She was in labor and you know I’m thinking “Oh, why didn’t we carry gloves?” You know, we were concerned about diseases. Why didn’t we carry gloves, you know? So I had–– they have, what’d they call it? The real sharp edged bushes, you know, in the field. And of course you get going through–– pushing through that, you get cut on your fingers. So I’m, I’m standing there going to help this woman, so I’m putting band-aids on my cuts on my fingers so, you know, I–– you know, what do you–– what do you do? So now I’m thinking one thing they told us–– this movie that we saw in fort, Fort Sam–– if you see feet, you know, you’re in trouble. You know, but you know, I got her, got her set. Got her laid down and saw the top of the head, you know, and the–– the guys were all on the outside of the hut and the villagers were all around the hut, watching what was going on and this woman–– she was going through pains, you know, and she never uttered–– never uttered a sound. It was just amazing to me that, that they could hold that in. And then, all of a sudden we were getting fire, sniper fire from across the river. So that scattered everybody and we started–– our guys started shooting back and of course then I had, I had two worries. I had the woman giving birth, then I’m thinking “What happens if somebody gets hurt or wounded in our–– or other villagers get wounded.” (1:24:23). Interviewer: “Yeah.” But fortunately none of that. Nobody got wounded, nobody got hurt from their–– from their sniper fire. We actually ended up bringing–– the baby was born to the sound of artillery shells coming in across the river. You know from our FO, ordered artillery into the, to the where–– that where they thought the VC were but of course they weren’t. Once the shooting stopped they were long gone and so yeah it was–– it was exciting time. Then we had the, the afterbirth of course. And they said, you know–– the Captain came up to me, Captain Wolf says “What are we going to do with her?” I said “Well, we’re going to take her to a hospital,” you know, it’s the only thing we can do. So I said “Is it safe to bring a medevac in at this point?” He said “Yeah we haven’t had any shooting for a while,” so he said “We’ll bring a medevac in.” So they brought–– it was a baby boy, by the way, came out good. And I tied off the umbilical cord like they told me to, and cut it and, you know, they, they took her. The medevac arrived, they put her on a stretcher, and they put her on the helicopter, and they took her into Chu Lai Hospital, you know, to be checked out, so. They were, some of the villagers were a little concerned like, like I said–– you mentioned earlier–– that she wouldn’t be coming back but we tried to–– we usually had an ARVN, Republic of Vietnamese Interpreter, with us so he was able to tell the villagers “No, she’s just going into the hospital. She’s going to be cleaned up and taken care of, make sure she’s alright and then she’ll be–– she’ll be brought out. She’ll be brought back out here.” So, a few �days later I inquired and they–– that’s what they had done. You know, it was a healthy baby boy, you know. Quite an experience. And then after that–– I didn’t realize it at the time–– but our, our Captain put me in for a Bronze Star Award, valorous award, for that exercise, so that experience. (1:26:41). Interviewer: “Alright, now before the Tet Offensive started did your unit get into any largescale firefights?” It was pretty quiet. This–– I think I delivered the baby on the 19th of December, just before Christmas. After that, when we went into base camp, the Bob Hope Show was there and a couple of us were able to go to see Bob Hope and Raquel Welch. That was quite an experience, you know, right before Christmas in Chu Lai. And then after that, through Christmas and the New Year–– our New Year–– it was pretty quiet. It was not much fighting going on. You know, little probably did we know that there was–– this was the time during the big buildup of the ARVN, or the North Vietnamese––the NVA coming down. And so that was through January–– we went on a lot of patrols but there was sporadic firefights and, but nothing–– nothing real, nothing real major, you know, at all. So January 30th was their Tết New Year, their, their New Year. And we went out in the field at the base of the, of the Central Highlands camping overnight. Bivouacking, bivouacking overnight and the guys were on guard duty and that type of thing and all of a sudden we get a report from headquarters that there were a thousand NVA troops within two miles of our location. So, we didn’t go. It was the middle of the night, we didn’t go out after them. We launched as–– as a mortar platoon we launched a lot of illumination rounds to see if we could see any movement out there, but we didn’t. About four o’clock in the morning or so, still dark, all of a sudden we hear “woosh” out of the Central Highlands. The NVA were launching rockets into Chu Lai. Into the air base. They were aiming for the hospital, they were aiming for whatever they could do, so. The next morning we watched these rockets go off from the Central Highlands, you know, maybe halfway up the mountain and it was–– it was a frightening experience. We didn’t know what was–– if these a thousand NVA was in our area or whatever, so. (1:29:34). Interviewer: “Now were you with a company sized unit at that point?” Yeah. Yeah, a company sized unit. So they took us to–– they brought, they brought helicopters and gunships in in the morning. They picked us up and they said “You’re going up in the Central Highlands where the rockets came from.” Okay, so–– so we loaded into the helicopters and they took us up into the Central Highlands. Well the problem was the helicopters could not land on the side of a mountain. So, the NVA had cleared out an area where they had the rockets launched and of course they were–– they were gone. The NVA were gone. They weren’t there anymore. So we, we tried as best we could–– the helicopter pilots tried as best they could, with their propellers, to get us as low as they could onto the side of that mountain. Then we had to jump out �of the helicopter and most of the guys–– a couple sprained ankles–– most of the guys did fine. You know, one guy was sitting–– you can imagine–– he’s sitting on this, on the edge of the helicopter floor and there’s the strut down there and he had his feet on the strut. Instead of standing up and jumping, he just kind of–– he just kind of slithered off the helicopter floor and his rucksack got caught on this, on the strut where the helicopter lands. So, he hung there for a few minutes and then he got free, then he flipped 180 degrees and land on his rucksack, on his back, on the side of the mountain. So I went over to see him and he had the wind knocked out of him but he was okay, thank goodness. He, he didn’t have to–– we didn’t have to evac him out, so. But yeah, we stayed up there. We did patrols from that area for a few days. One time, it had cleared out–– it got pretty quiet for a while right there. One day, we were–– had–– a patrol going out to try to find some fresh water in the streams up there in the mountains. So, one of the guys– – I think it was a radio man or somebody that wasn’t really infantry trained–– wanted to walk point. So, six of us went down this trail and he was walking point and all of a sudden I look up and he’s running back. You know “Let’s get out of here, get out of here.” I said “What’s going on?” He says “I just ran into a column of NVA coming the other way on the trail.” Both point men saw each other, they turned around, and they ran. They ran in both directions. So, when they–– when we got back shaking a little bit, a little scared–– back to the, to the group, they sent a column out to try to look for these NVA on the same trail, but of course nobody found anything, so. So, yeah. Tet Offensive was an interesting time. They, they blew up–– they blew up a bridge in Chu Lai on Highway One and it was funny because later on they brought in a crane to repair that bridge and on the back of that crane was Bay City. You know, that was where I was from in Michigan. The government had purchased from Industrial-Brownhoist that crane and they had shipped it over to Vietnam and they were using that to repair that bridge. But, yeah there was–– it was a very tense, tense time. Lots of firefights, lots of guys–– lots of guys injured, lots of guys hurt, you know. We had–– we had a lot of casualties in our unit, you know, but. I took a note yesterday of a book that I had about how many–– how many injuries they had during, during Tet and this is the U.S. Forces. In the 30 days–– the first 30 days of Tet, okay, that would’ve been the whole month. Probably the month of February 1968, the U.S. killed in action: 2,371, wounded: 11,664. Of those wounded 5,500 will return to duty in, in country and 155 missing in action. The NVA counted 25,000 killed in action, and 16,000 lost weapons. There was no stats on the wounded that they, that they encountered, so, yep. (1:34:49). Interviewer: “Wow. Alright, now somewhere along the line you picked up another Bronze Star?” Yes. Yes. That was–– we went–– after I was in the field for through Tet and after I was in the field for for six months, they’d like to rotate the medics back into the aid station and then send, send new medics or send other medics out and take their place with, with the companies in the fields. So, I was one of the lucky ones. I was rotated back to the aid station and then I believe it �was in June or July of ‘68. The Tet thing had calmed down but the Laos thing had gotten pretty hot. There were lots of stuff going on in Laos, across the border. (1:35:43). Interviewer: “We weren’t doing officially too much there but we were doing–– there was a lot of fighting going on further up in the Highlands, in the hills, and close to the Laos ocean border.” Yeah. We were told, our group–– our battalion–– was told “You’re going to Laos.” “You’re going to–– to–– to deploy to Laos for at least 30 days.” Was like “Oh man.” And that scared the heck out of us, you know. To go into a green site, you know, and they said “You need to have, you know, your weapons, you need to have, you know, food. You need to have medical supplies.” Well, I was in the pharmacy at that point and the government had put out lists of–– of what they required for a battalion moving to a new site. And they–– you had to have bins full of bandages and medicine and, you know, shots and all this stuff that we, that we–– sutures–– and all this stuff that we had to, we had to use over there. And I did an inventory in our pharmacy and we had a quarter of what we needed.So the doctor said “Do you think you can pull this together?” I said, “Well, give me a driver and give me a jeep and I’ll see what I can find.” So I spent three weeks scouring the countryside–– Chu Lai, the hospital, other, other–– other hills. Hill 54, our hill, other, other military bases there. I think I even went to the air force, you know, on the–– on the airport, and was able to pull together, I would say 98 percent of the necessary supplies that we had to take into Laos. So we got that all–– we got that all inspected, got that, you know, all quantified and, so, and then of course, a week later–– two weeks later–– your trips canceled. But what the, the doctor wanted to do–– or what he said, he said “You went over and beyond your duty to–– to pull all this together.” So they gave me a second Bronze Star for meritorious–– for meritorious service. So. (1:38:10). Interviewer: “Alright, so what was your–– what was life like then on the base, now that you’re working at the aid station? What kinds of things were you doing?” Well, we had–– of course you had the little villages down at Chu Lai and the guys would go down there and have a good time and of course they’d come back with a VD. So we had a pretty healthy supply of penicillin on, on hand and then if guys couldn’t take penicillin, they had antibiotics like tetracycline and that type of thing that we used to–– and we had–– the aid station was open for, for cuts and bruises and you know, minor wounds and taking sutures out, and you know, all that kind of thing. So that’s what we did on a day-to-day–– on a day-to-day basis. We inspected–– another silly story but we inspected all–– our job was to inspect all the latrines on Hill 69. There were probably, oh I’m guessing there were probably a dozen or six, six to 12 latrines. And some of the guys that we had on duty for the inspection and cleaning these latrines– – the medics were just overseers, they didn’t, we didn’t actually had to do this. We needed to make sure they burned the stuff and, and all that. And then one time, one of the medics got a �hold of some methyl salicylate. I don’t know if you know what that is. You ever smell wintergreen? Interviewer: “Yeah.” That’s the wintergreen oil and that’s what you put on, you know, swellings and that the heat makes it, makes it heat. Makes it warm and it reduces swelling and all that stuff. Well, one of the medics thought it would be funny if we sprinkled some of that on the officer’s latrine seats, and we got in big time trouble for that. You know, they came, they came right at us, you know, wanted to know who it was. Well of course we didn’t–– we didn’t know who did it and of course whoever did it didn’t–– didn’t volunteer that they did it. So we got a severe reprimand that this would not happen again, you know, so. So, but that was funny. So that was–– that was life on the hill, you know. Interviewer: “Now when the units out in the field took casualties, would they come to your aid station or would they get taken to Chu Lai or something?” We had a–– we had a helip- helicopter pad right there. If they weren’t too serious, you know, injuries–- cuts, and, you know, or you know, whatever–– they would land there, then we would go up, you know, kind of like they see on M.A.S.H. We would go up and, with a Jeep and then bring them back to the aid station, evaluate them, and if they needed to go further from there we would take ‘em by ambulance or by Jeep from there into the Chu Lai hospital, you know, just down the road from us. So, yep. (1:41:20). Interviewer: “Alright, and then you also did some work out in, in the community from there?” Yes. That was–– that was a really good thing that we, that we ended up doing. Later–– later in my tour, probably during the summer and it was hot, it was really hot and we did these MEDCAPs which is Medical Civic Action Programs, where we would go into a village and we would set up a mini aid station. And we would bring in the, the, the people from the village–– the kids–– if they had any ailments, we would try to–– we would give them medication. Most of them came in with, with dental problems. A lot of it self-inflicted dental problems. They would chew a narcotic called Betel Nut and they would chew that–– it turned their gums red, their teeth red, and they would chew that to numb the pain in their mouth from their, from their rotted teeth, you know. Especially the older people, the senior’s. And of course we couldn’t do anything about, about that. We’d give them–– we’d give them aspirin or we’d give ‘em Tylenol or whatever to try to kill the pain, but I think it helped a lot and then one time we were in a village and it was late in the afternoon. We’d gone through the villagers and helped them, you know, with medication and minor injuries and that type of thing, and the–– and the chief of the �village came up to us, and we’d had our interpreter with us. He says “I’d like you to have–– we’d like to give you dinner.” He said, “Okay, he’d like to give us dinner.” So we said, “Yeah we can– – we can do that.” We had our Jeeps, we were–– it was a drivable thing, you know, where we take our supplies–– Interviewer: “Yeah.” –– with us. So we stayed for dinner and the interpreter–– I think he was pulling our chain, maybe he wasn’t, but he said, after the dinner he said “How’d you like the meat?” We said “Oh well it was–– wasn’t too bad.” He said “Well those were some old dogs in the village that they had left over and then they, they decided to cook them up and serve them to you with––” You know, he was kind of smiling a little bit, but I don’t think it was. You know, but they did–– they did eat–that was considered a delicacy over there. That was–– dog was considered a delicacy. (1:44:01). Interviewer: “Alright–” So. Interviewer: “–– and did your system complain about the meal later?” Can’t remember. Yeah, I think it probably did because it was rich food, was highly spiced food, and yeah it was–– we had a couple guys from the southwest on our base camp and they planted a garden, and they planted jalapeno peppers, you know, and all the hot peppers. And so they would eat that to spice up their food while they were on the hill. And yeah, they would spend the morning in the latrine, the next day, you know, getting rid of that hot food. Interviewer: “So, alright. Now one of the kind of standard things people in Vietnam, was they would get an R&R. They’d get to go leave the country for a while and go somewhere else and––” Yeah. Interviewer: “–– did you get that? And where did you go?” Yeah I was–– I was very lucky. I had signed up to go to–– you sign up where you want to go. You could go to Thailand, you could go to Bangkok, Thailand. You could go to Japan, you could go to Australia, and you could go to Hawaii. Most of the married guys that were there ended up going to Hawaii and they flew their–– their wives flew over to meet ‘em in Hawaii. So we didn’t mess with going to Hawaii. It would’ve been nice but we didn’t mess with that. So, I signed up to go to, to Australia, and I think it was in April of that year I went–– I was able to go to �Australia. They–– they took us by Braniff International Airlines from Da Nang to the north part of Australia. I can’t think of the name of it, a city there, to refuel. And while they were refuelling, they had to have the plane emptied of soldiers. We all had to get off the airplane. So they took us off–– they were concerned about drugs. You know, marijuana and whatever else. They took us off three at a time, three seats across. They took us off three at a time, they had MPs there at the airport, and they searched our seats, they searched us, and then they let us off the airplane. It took quite a while for 160 guys to get off the airplane and, and they refueled and it was northern tip of Australia–– Interviewer: “Like Townsville–– Townsville or––” No, it was–– Interviewer: “Darwin, which is in the middle [of the north coast] of the country?” (1:46:45). Yeah. No, this was at the tip on the, on the–– I can’t–– Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah. It’s closest to kind of New Guinea sort of thing but––” Yes, right up at the top. And then they–– we flew from there to, to Sydney, Australia. Then they inspected us again. They did the same thing. You know, oh man. You know, this is what it’s going to be like, what’s it going to be like when we get off, you know. We had–– they had booked us a hotel in downtown Sydney and it was fabulous. It was absolutely–– the Australians love the Americans, you know, and the–– I think the Americans love the Australians, and we had–– we had a few down the street from us, our hotel, there was a park and they had a few people demonstrating down there but nothing real–– real serious. Nothing’s–– nothing violent, you know. And then, what the Australians–– what the Australians did–– well I, I was lucky. I had gone to a bar, like the first night I was there, downtown Sydney, and I had met this Navy guy that had been there for three weeks. So, he knew the lay of the land in Sydney. And he says, “Okay.” He said, “Guys write this down.” So we were sitting at a table, having drinks, and he wanted us–– he wrote down all the places in Sydney that were giving free drinks to the U.S. Military. And they would open their clubs, you know these, these, you know, these private clubs. They would open them and they–– they had discos then, you know. That you had to pay to get into. And he gave us a list of all those places to go to, where we could get free drinks, you know, listen to music, you know, have a great time, and they also–- the secretaries and the, and the girls downtown, that work downtown, they would let them in, you know, for happy hour as well. So, we got to meet a lot of people, you know, and we had a–– we had an absolutely fantastic time down in–– and we went into the country without a passport because, you know, we went in as–– on with military orders–– (1:49:16). �Interviewer: “Right.” –– you know, so. We left. We left the country, went back to Vietnam and then a month–– a couple months later I said “Gee, I’d really like to go back there again.” And I found some of the guys were actually taking a leave. You could–– you had accrued some leave time, you know, so I said “Well I want to go back to Australia.” So they said “Okay, if you know–– if you go back to Australia this time, as a civilian, not a military, you had to have a passport.” Oh, crap. So I said “Okay, what do I need? What do I need to do to get a passport?” “Well you have to apply, you have to send it in, and you have to go to Saigon and go to the Australian Embassy and get a Visa. I thought, “Oh gee.” I mean it’s a long ways from, it’s a long way from Chu Lai to Saigon and, and then we had to–– we had to take military flights down there, which I did. And then I think the Vung Tau was the place where the–– some of the flights took out of for, for the R&R’s, so I got my–– I went to the Australian Embassy, I got, got my Visa, my passport. Went to the Australian Embassy, got my Visa, you know, was right–– it was right near the, the U.S. Embassy in, in Saigon. The one they showed the pictures of when everybody was leaving and everything and it’s one that was–– was run over almost during Tet. There were still a lot of guards there–– there was a lot of, a lot of damage there, so. But they held it for what, six hours or something like that? They held the U.S. Embassy for six hours and so I went back to the base of the–– where their flights were going out of. And it was–– I could only go on standby, if anybody canceled. Well, of course, I didn’t. I didn’t go. I didn’t get to get on any flights to Australia. So I’m two–– two days into this seven day leave and I’m thinking “Got five days left, what can I do?” So they said “Well you can go to–– you can go to some other country.” I said “Okay, where can I go?” They said “Well, you could go to Taipei, Taiwan.” I said “Oh, interesting.” All by myself–– wasn’t with anybody–– any other military guys. So, I caught a Northwest Orient flight out of the airport to Taipei, Taiwan. All by myself and went to Taipei. Had the best pizza I think I’ve ever had in my life in Taipei and didn’t really–– had civilian clothes, didn’t really dress in military. I think they knew I was military, but didn’t–– didn’t dress that way. But you know, toward the–– toward the countryside, got–– took, took taxis out to–– I said “Take me to a park where there’s waterfalls.” They take me to a place where there’s waterfalls and, and all of that and toured the–– toured Taipei a little bit, you know, so, it was–– it was fun. It was fun. (1:52:37). Interviewer: “Okay. Now, did you stay a full year in Vietnam?” Yes. I landed there–– I think we landed there on the 22nd of October, a year and two days since I’d gone into the army and then, I think I rotated out the 1st of October 1968. So I was literally in the army for, for two years. Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you counting down the days to––” Oh yes. �Interviewer: “–– to leave?” Yes. I’m glad you brought that up. Yes, we were–– everybody was–– everybody had a short timer calendar. Okay, and this was my short timer calendar. Can you see that? Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so you got your, your army helmet there and the boots underneath––” Yep. Yep–– Interviewer: “–– counting down the days.” –– and I had First of the 46th written on the back here, but yeah it was–– you colored in everyday and then you became next. That was on September 30th, so. I put Red Cross girls down here. I don’t know why I put that down there, but who knows. It was probably part of the thing when we had the USO come to the base and the USO troops would come in and they would give us some entertainment, so. Interviewer: “Well there were Red Cross girls or, then in previous wars they were called Donut Dollies sometimes, but there were–– there were women volunteers who would go out. Did you ever see any of those in Vietnam?” No–– yeah I did, but they never went out in the field with us. (1:54:13). Interviewer: “Well no––” Yeah. Interviewer: “–– that was not a part of it. They would come to the bases or whatever. Yeah.” So we were–– you were a short timer. How short can you get? So that’s–– that’s what we had and the other thing is of–– this is an actual–– in our, on our Hill 69 ths was an actual flag that flew over our med station on the hill, and that was a combat–– combat medical badge that somebody had gone to a village and had made up for us. You know, so they took our CMBs and made that white plastic thing, so. I forgot that I had it.I was going through some stuff and–– Interviewer: “There it was.” –– it’s still in pretty good shape. �Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, now are there other things that, that happened in, in Vietnam that kind of stand out in your memory or things that you haven’t covered? Check your notes there if you’d like.” Yeah. I’ll check my notes quickly but yeah, I pretty much covered a lot of the stuff that, that–– with your help–– that I had gone through, so. It was funny our–– when we were deploying out of Fort Hood, our Sergeant was a–– we called him a lifer. He was in–– he had been in for five and three-quarters years, you know, so, the guys did not like him. He gave us a hard time. In fact, it was kind of interesting. We had–– we had ministers come on the base and come to our, our area, where we were, our–– our bunks were and stuff. You know, are in at Fort Hood and anybody–– they would announce it, you know, over the intercom system “anybody wants to see a Catholic priest or a Lutheran minister” or whatever. And apparently the–– the clergy would go through the list, you know, of people that were there on the–– at that time. And they came on my name, which was my last name, which was Rosin. And I was–– my last name is spelled with an i-n and the Jewish people spelled their name with an e-n. R-o-s-e-n. So every time a rabbi would come on the base, you know, they would call me over to the, to the–– to the office and I’d have to go over there and I said “Sorry, Rabbi, that I’m not a…” You know, I’m not–– Interviewer: “Not Jewish.” –– not Jewish. But every time they would–– every time they would do that and you think, I think “Sergeant, you know–– this is the third time this has happened.” You know, “Oh, I forgot.” You know that kind of thing, so. But he left. He actually got out of the army before we deployed to Vietnam, so. So. I didn’t tell you about the other thing. Before we were–– the night before we left, did I say about we all went to the PX and–– (1:57:38). Interviewer: “You don’t–– not on camera.” Okay. Not on camera. Okay, we all–– the night before we were going to leave Fort Hood, we all went to the PX. We had gone to the bar and got, you know, a few beers in us. Then after that we went to the PX and we said “Now what can we do that would be different?” So we said, “Oh! Lady Clairol.” You know, hair dye. So we went–– we went and picked up boxes of Lady Clairol hair dye and there were, there were six of us. I dyed my hair blonde, completely blonde. One guy, Ray Jones, had pink hair. Another guy had blue hair, another guy had silver hair, you know, another guy had blonde hair. So, we went up the next morning, we had to–– every morning he went off a reveille–– and they called your attention. When they showed the colors we had to take off our hat, you know, and the Sergeant was standing there and he looked and he looked again. He did a double take, you know, he says “You can’t do that.” We said “Well, it’s done.” You know, we did it. He’s–– he was really flustered. He didn’t know–– he didn’t know if it was legal �military wise to do that or not. So, a little while later he came back to us, he said “You guys are going to have to go to headquarters and get new IDs taken.” “What?” “You know, yeah. You have a different hair color. It’s not the same hair color that you have on your ID, so you’re going to have to get new IDs taken.” The guy–– one guy says “Well what about–– what happens when our hair grows out?” “Well, just keep your other ID and you can use that at that time.” So, it was hilarious, you know, we had a–– we had a really good time. And then in the three weeks we took the ship over, just before we landed, we all got haircuts, you know, before we landed in Vietnam and by that time the blonde hair was, was pretty well–– was pretty well gone but it was, it was hilarious. So, we had a good–– we had a good time. So, you gotta–– you gotta do those things, you know. The guys–– guys–– and we all knew each other. You know, we had gone through–– a lot of us had gone through basic together and everything else, so. And that was another great thing, we went over as a battalion so we all trusted each other and then they trusted me as their medic, I trusted them as having my back, you know, when we needed too and the confidence level ramped up a little bit after I delivered the baby. You know, the guys were very, very happy that–– that I was with them and they were very confident of what I could do. So that–– that helped that situation a lot. (2:00:42). Interviewer: “Okay.” So we had–– a lot of times at night we would be sleeping or whatever and next morning the guys would come to me and that. One guy, one morning, came to me and says, he says, “Doc, I got a– – I got a Tootsie Roll in my mouth.” I said, “What? Where’d you get a Tootsie Roll?” He said, “Well I don’t think it’s a Tootsie Roll.” So during the night we were sleeping in a very wet area, on the side of a hill, and a leech had crawled in his mouth and his whole front of his lip on the inside, there was a leech in his mouth. So he said, “Doc, you gotta get rid of it.” I said, “Okay.” Usually we–– when the leeches, if you touch them with a cigarette butt they would, they would let go. So we–– this, then we had the, what they called, the bug juice. The stuff that you put on, you know, like Off, you know, and it was pretty strong stuff. So I said, “Well” whatever his name was, I said, “The only thing that I can do is, you’re going to have to grin and bear it. I’m going to put some of this bug juice on that thing, you know?” And as soon as I hit it with the bug juice it–– it, it let go. And, so yeah. So yeah that was where–– those were interesting, those are interesting times. And then one night we were walking on patrol. We’re on one hill and then–– it was moonlight–– we could see another group of guys walking the other direction, on another hill maybe 100 yards away, you know, a column of guys. And I asked one of the guys, I said, “Who are they?” They said, “Oh. They’re not us.” You know, it must have been–– it must have been the NVA over there. We never–– never had an issue with them but they were, they were–– they were night walking just like we were doing, so. So yeah. (2:02:54). Interviewer: “And when you were living in the base camp, would that ever get hit with mortars or rockets or anything like that?” �Well, the–– yeah. The–– the night we were supposed to leave the country, the 30th of September. So the 29th of September on base camp, on Hill 69, we turned in our weapons because we wouldn’t be needing them anymore. We turned ‘em all in and we got ready to go. Got ready to pack and then one of the guys said, he says, “Wow.” He said, “You don’t wanna–– you don’t wanna go to, to the airport.” He said, “The Chu Lai airport,” he says–– or Da Nang, wherever we were going. I guess it was Da Nang. He said, “They’re putting the guys–– all the army guys are being put to duty down there. They’re either painting, they’re doing KP, you know, they’re cleaning, cleaning latrines, they’re doing all this stuff for the people that I just left the day before.” You know, I said, “No, we don’t wanna do that.” So we said, okay, what we’ll do is spend the night here on Hill 69. One more night shouldn’t be a problem, you know. So, about, about midnight that night we start hearing small arms fire. And then we got–– then we saw mortars were incoming into this hill, which had never been attacked the whole year that we were there. So, they snuck in through some areas. The Viet Cong snuck in, they had satchel charges with them. They blew up one end of the, of the cook's place, where they were staying, you know their–– their hut–– and they were hurt. They were hurt so we had, we had to treat those guys. We’re saying–– we’re there, no weapons, you know, didn’t have any extra weapons, you know. The NVA was–– or the Viet Cong were coming in. They were trying to overrun the hill. Well, they fought ‘em back. They were hoped–– they were–– they were hoping for, since we were–– we were leaving the country or had left the hill–– the experienced troops that had been there a year, that they could overrun it without any trouble. So–– Interviewer: “Were there new guys there manning the perimeter?” New guys that had just got there. They got indoctrinated real quick. Interviewer: “So did the whole battalion worth of people go at the same time or did they do you in staggered groups or not––” Yeah. There was probably 50 of us that went at one time. (2:05:49). Interviewer: “Yeah.” We didn’t do everybody, but enough. And we said later, we said–– we wrote these guys. They said, “How did they–– how did they determine this?” Well, they said they went and interrogated the people that were in these, this village, just outside the gate. And they had apparently given the Viet Cong information that we had–– we had left the hill. The experienced troops had left the hill, they could overrun it, you know, if they wanted to. So, yeah. That was–– so the night before I flew home, all hell broke loose. But luckily, none of us got hurt , that were leaving. And those that got hurt, weren’t real serious, you know, so. Yeah. It was, it was an–– �–– interesting, interesting time. Interviewer: “Alright. So the next day you successfully get out.” We successfully get out and when the–– when the Braniff International 707 lifted off the tarmac in Da Nang, you heard the biggest cheer you ever heard in your life. So. We flew to Japan and refueled and then we got everybody off the airplane again. And then, then we flew to Seattle, Washington. We–– we got out of the army at Fort Lewis in Seattle, so. Interviewer: “Okay. And then how did you get home from there?” There–– then we flew. We flew home from Seattle to Minneapolis and then [from] Minneapolis I went to Bay City and a lot of guys–– a couple of guys came to here to Grand Rapids. So. Interviewer: “Yeah. Did you fly in uniform or in civilian clothes?” Yes, we flew in uniform. We didn’t have–– I didn’t have any civilian clothes at that time. So one interesting thing was they promised you a steak dinner when you landed at Fort Lewis. “Welcome back to the U.S.” So, we stood in line–– four o’clock in the morning–– and we stood in line at this mess hall at Fort Lewis. And they–– I saw them take the steaks out of the freezer, literally, and throw ‘em on the grill. You know, on the hot griddle and that was our steak dinner. You know. And it was good, you know, it was good. Potatoes and, and all that stuff. And you know we–– guys didn’t feel real good, you know, because we weren’t used to eating that stuff. After they, you know, after they fed us that meal. That was our breakfast. So I had some–– some compazine tablets along so I–– still being the medic–– I handed those out to some of the guys that didn’t feel good, so. So–– (2:08:40). Interviewer: “Alright.” –– yeah. Interviewer: “So, and then once you get back home, what do you do?” Well, once I got back home I went–– I took a few weeks off–– then I went back to work for the company that I’d worked for before I went to Vietnam. And they actually, or actually went–– before I went in the service–– the two years that I spent in the Army, they gave me credit for–– �as, as time within the–– for the company. So the pension and everything was, went on from there. Interviewer: “What kind of work were you doing for them?” Well, I started out as a draftsman in the engineering department and then went into the sales layout department where–– the company that I worked for sold commercial bakery equipment to companies like Nabisco and Pepperidge Farms and Keebler. The big long ovens and the–– that–– and the bread lines also to Tasty Bread and all that type of thing. So I graduated from there, or not graduated, I went up in the company and I eventually became a salesman in the cookies and crackers side of the business and sold that equipment. Traveled all over the country, traveled to Europe, traveled to Mexico and selling–– selling bakery equipment. My biggest accounts were Pepperidge and Keebler. Got to know how to make Goldfish crackers. So. And then in 1995 when I was working there, one of my bosses came up to me and said, “We’ve been contacted by Bien Hoa sugar company in Vietnam and they want to put an American cookie line into their plant in Vietnam. I said, “Okay, well guys,” I said, “been there and done that. I don’t really wanna go back there again.” So we went back and forth for a few weeks and eventually I agreed to go back to Vietnam in 1995 for ten days, and flew from–– to–– San Francisco and then flew all the way from San Francisco to Hong Kong. And then flew from Hong Kong into Ho Chi Minh city, or Saigon in 1995. It was a very interesting experience because when you were in Hong Kong, it was like being in Las Vegas. You know, the lights of the city and that. Everything was lit up at night, we took off at night. When we landed in Vietnam it was like total darkness. There was no lights. Even the city of any–– even the city was not lit up. You know, and we were–– we were coming in to land and I’m thinking “Where’s the airport?” You know, it’s total darkness and so, they didn’t give us too hard a time going through customs. We stayed in–– we stayed in downtown Ho Chi Minh City, I guess it’s called, and just the life–– the lifestyle difference of the people, you know. They were, they were nice people. They were all very courteous and nice. We appreciated with Bien Hoa Sugar Company and I–– we had to have interpreters. I think the people at Bien Hoa could speak English but they wanted–– they only spoke Vietnamese. You know, so. So we got the order. We built the equipment in Grand Rapids, here, and the ovens and the forming machines for the cookies. And before they shipped ‘em over to Vietnam, they wanted to send their representatives from the factory over here to test the equipment. (2:12:51). Interviewer: “Yeah.” So they sent their representatives over and we had a lab and we set the equipment up, we ran it, we made cookies. So they were all happy. One morning I went in there into the lab and I could see feet out from under one of the machines. I said, “What is he doing?” So, you know, I don’t know who they had negotiated or purchased the equipment from in the past, but they were–– �there was a guy in there with an electric engraver and he was engraving in the frame of the machine, underneath, a code that so they were sure that when the machine got over there, that it was the same machine that we tested over here. So, and then it was funny because one of the lab managers, he had to pick him up every morning at the hotel and he said, “Oh,” he said, “those guys” he said, “that’s all they did was watch X-rated movies.” We had to pay for this. We had agreed that we would pay for this and then they would, they would go to the supermarket and they would buy all fresh fruit. That’s all they would eat. They were vegetarians. That’s all they would eat, is no, no meat. So. Interviewer: “Did any of them know that you had been in Vietnam?” Yes. I think they did. Yeah, I think they did. They knew it and in ‘95 when I was over there, you know, these big deuce-and-a-half’s–– these big trucks that they ran–– they were still running them. The diesels were still running. And a couple of ‘em had–– going down the road with telephone poles from one end of the truck to the other, out the back, right next to the–– right next to the driver. There was no way he could see to the right when he was driving this truck, you know. There you go down, down the highway with these–– with these trucks. So. But the people were very nice over there. They were very courteous. There was no animosity towards the Americans, you know, at that time. So, you know, it wasn’t bad. Interviewer: “They won.” What’s that? Interviewer: “They won. Be generous at that point.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so look back at the time that you spent in the service. What do you think you took out of that or how did that affect you?” Well, I think what I took out of there was some friendships that I made with the guys. You see the world from a different perspective, you know. You look at things differently. You look at what you have differently. All the conveniences you have–– ice cream, you know. You look at those things. You know, cars and dental care. You know, you look at–– you look at all those things and you’re very thankful that what you have here. And you still feel, you know, you feel sorry for those people over there, that have to go live with that day-to-day. Even though the communists took that back over again, their lifestyle improved a little bit, but they were still going down the street–– walking down the street–– there were still live utility wires, you know, at head level, when you were walking down the street. You know, so. But yeah, like I said earlier �the code of conduct, I think, was something that we should all live by, you know. And the help that we gave to those people, you know, stemmed communism for a little while anyway. You know. And I think that made, personally, and made us feel good and made us all feel good over there. It was–– there was really not much, you know, objection to being over there by the guys. They–– they were there to do a job, they did the job, and they came home. So. (2:16:52). Interviewer: “And was it–– what was the ethnic mix in your battalion? Were there a lot of black guys or just a few––” Yeah there was–– I would say we were probably 30 percent black and then there were, there were some Orientals, you know, as well. There were a few guys from Mexico that were, you know, are Americans. But mostly it was, it was white guys, you know. So. Interviewer: “And were there any racial issues that you noticed in the––” No. Interviewer: “–– time there?” No. I didn’t see any racial issues at all when I was there. So–– Interviewer: “Because you were there at the time when Martin Luther King was killed and– –” Yeah. Interviewer: “–– and that kind of stuff. And so, but that was not reverberating at least where you were?” No. I remember when–– Interviewer: “Bobby Kennedy––” Kennedy. Robert Kennedy was killed. You know, that–– which shook everybody up. You know, and the Martin Luther King thing never, never–– at least I didn’t pay any attention to it, if it was bad. (2:17:54). Interviewer: “Well you had other things to worry about at the time––” Yeah. �Interviewer: “–– I suppose––” Right. Interviewer: “–– but because that was still in the aftermath of well that, that stuff. Where the stuff was still going on at that point.” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “There was plenty going on. Yeah. Now today are you involved with any veterans groups or things like that?” Yeah. I’m involved with the, the Veterans of America group. We meet once a month in Grand Rapids. We meet at Marge’s Donuts. And I figured I should give back a little bit of my training that I had from the military, so once a week I volunteer at the VA Health Clinic in Wyoming and I–– I’m not doing any medical things but I’m in the administrative section where when the people get back to see their patient advocate or the release of information or the eligibility thing. I–– I’m kind of the gatekeeper there to let people back. I do that once a week, four hours in the morning on Wednesdays. Yep. Interviewer: “Alright. Well you’ve done a fine job for us here today, so thank you very much for taking the time to share the story.” Well, thank you for allowing me to do this. I appreciate the opportunity. I’d like to say, when we came back, you know, just because of the animosity towards the Vietnam veterans–– the Vietnam War–– we didn’t say too much. You know, but as time goes on now I think it’s important that the people hear this from a history standpoint. You know, I don’t know if there’s even–– if they even study the Vietnam War in schools anymore. Interviewer: “There’s not a lot in the Michigan state high school curriculum.” Yeah. Interviewer: “You can get a little bit and it depends on what the individual teachers do, but yeah. Not, not a whole heck of a lot. Yeah.” But we appreciate–– I appreciate what Grand Valley State University has done to do this and the veterans that I’ve talked to all appreciate what you guys do. (2:20:01). �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RosinJ2356V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosin, James Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-05 Title A name given to the resource Rosin, James (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Jim Rosin was born in September 1947 in Bay City, Michigan. Rosin lived there all his adolescent life and graduated from Bay City Central High School in 1965. Upon graduation Rosin went to work for a company in Saginaw, Michigan that sold bakery equipment. However, in the summer of 1966 Rosin was summoned to Detroit where he had to get a physical for the military. Eventually Rosin was cleared for military service. October 20, 1966 was the day Rosin was to report for military duty. He then began the trek down from Bay City to Detroit to then Fort Wayne. Eventually, Rosin and his peers were taken down to Fort Knox in Lexington, Kentucky. Rosin and the rest of his group were eventually split up and Rosin was selected to head to Fort Hood in Texas to complete his basic training. Here Rosin took an aptitude test and was selected to be an Army Medic. In the summer of 1967 Rosin traveled to Vietnam where he served in the 46th Infantry. Because of his time in Vietnam, Rosin was awarded two Bronze Stars. One for putting his obstetric training to use and delivering a baby, and the other for meritorious service. Rosin service ended when he eventually rotated out on October 1st 1968. He returned back home and continued to work for the company selling bakery equipment. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4c24ae5f4c6a7dad0d75296bdd97563.mp4 545dc391bd77a6d6b5755330fe43b4ec https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/299438e5db3d5c1a753737e33eb8dfd0.pdf 70866fdf5f04abb26cf7a7250ca78b80 PDF Text Text Rensi, Edward Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Edward Rensi Length of Interview: (1:00:28) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Edward Rensi of Woodsfield, Ohio and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, start off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in– Pardon me, I was born December the 7th, 1925 in a small town called Parlett. Ohio. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you grow up there or did you move around?” No, in fact my mother came to her mother’s house to have me, you know, and after about six weeks we moved to a small town called Wintersville, Ohio. So actually you might as well say I was raised in Wintersville, Ohio. (00:52) Interviewer: “Alright, and what was your family doing for a living?” My dad was a coal miner and also he was on the rail force for a while, railroad– Basically he was a miner, coal miner. Interviewer: “Okay, so what part of Ohio were you in?” It was the eastern part of Ohio, Jefferson country. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Alright, now did your father have steady work during the depression or was that on and off?” No the depression was rather tough, you know it was really something but we survived and that’s about it. Interviewer: “Okay, and how many kids were in the family?” Just another brother. Interviewer: “Alright, and then do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” Yes I do, I remember vividly. I was 16 years old and my uncle and dad and cousin we always went fishing walleye and it was– Even though that it was that time of the year we were still fishing for walleye. (2:00) Okay we were fishing and we broke camp, we had a cabin, and we broke camp and we were going home and then we heard over the radio that Japs attacked it and my dad and uncle well they just said– They just said “Well that won’t last long.” And my cousin, he was four years older than I was and they said “Well maybe Jim will go the service but Ed he won’t have to, that’s for sure.” And they just took it as a grain of salt, like most of them they thought the Japs would be a pushover and they would even joke about it say “If we see any Japs don’t forget we’ll run over them.” They were really joking about it, it was really serious. Interviewer: “Alright, now did life change at all after the war started, because it’s gonna be a while before you go in the service yourself?” Yes. Interviewer: “So what changes were there in your community or your area?” Well most things was the regulations, you know naturally since the war they’ve got restrictions and stuff like that you know but other than that it just seemed like what it would be, you know. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Okay, now did you decide to– Did you consider enlisting or did you just wait until Uncle Sam called you?” Well I wanted to enlist right away, you know but my dad and uncle both they just told me to– You know get on me and tell me, in fact after I did sign up for– And I always wanted– They didn’t call me, see I was born in December, okay. So that was the latter part so the draft board didn’t hear any notice from them, you know and I kept telling them “Maybe I ought to go up there and check on it, they’re not calling me yet.” And boy they’d get on me, they’d give me hell they’d say “You just sit tight, they’ll call you.” So finally– They finally did call me. Interviewer: “So when did you get your draft notice?” Well really I can’t tell you when I got my draft notice for sure, you know but I can tell you when I was called up. Interviewer: “Right, yeah.” (4:13) Was March of 14th, 1944. Interviewer: “Okay, okay so at that point now, let’s see were you 19 then or still– Let’s see, you’re still 18.” Yeah, 18 that’s right. Interviewer: “That’s right cause it’ll be December of ‘43 that you turn 18.” I’d be 19 that following– Yeah. Interviewer: “Right, okay so you’re still 18. Okay, so you didn’t really have to wait too long after your 18th birthday. �Rensi, Edward No, not really yeah. Interviewer: “They caught up with you pretty quickly, okay now where did you report to first?” Well first report was small town Cadiz, Ohio and they took us to Cleveland for, you know our introduction there. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you– How did you wind up in the service branch that you joined, I guess which branch of the service did you enter?” The Navy, I was in the Navy but I was considered a selected volunteer. Selected, I have a choice, so I picked the Navy. Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you pick the Navy?” (5:17) Well I just thought it’d be better and my dad and uncle they were like my tutors, you know and they more or less said the Navy because my uncle, the uncle I’m telling you about, he was in World War I and so he probably knew what it was like to be on the ground, you know so he said that and I took it. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you sign up for the Navy and then where do they send you for training?” Great Lakes Naval Training Station, Chicago. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how did you get there?” By bus. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Okay so you took a bus from Cleveland to Chicago?” Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t take a train to Chicago and then a bus?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and describe what basic training was like.” Boy it was something different I’ll tell you that, little country boy you know, once you’re with a group of fellows all at once you know, close quarters you know, and– But I fell in with it you know I thought it would really affect me but I don’t know I just did what I had to do, you know. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of stuff did you do in training?” (6:38) Well we’d have a lot of physical running and calisthenics and things like that. Interviewer: “Okay, now it’s the Navy so did you have to learn how to tie knots or that kind of–” Yeah we had– Not too much of that, yeah and we had recognition, you know of enemy ships, aircraft, things like that visual training. Interviewer: “Okay, now did they do a fire fighting drill?” We had that, in fact we went to fire fighting school. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did that consist of?” �Rensi, Edward Well that was something, we went to actual happenings, you know we was in gear and we had nozzles and everything and they had fires like we had to spray in front of us, actual fire training. Interviewer: “Okay, and let’s see did they have you try gas masks or breathing equipment?” Yeah, we had that too, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did the drill instructors treat you?” With discipline you know, yeah. Interviewer: “But were they, I mean–” They weren’t mean, no. Interviewer: “Okay, so they did things for a reason?” (7:51) Right. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long did basic training last?” From March until– Damn there it goes now, let’s see– Interviewer: “Well did you–” Okay after our basic we get on a troop train and about six weeks about it was, so after our basic we get on a troop train and we went to California, called Camp Shoemaker. It was an embarkation point where they gathered and then when they’re ready to ship, when they need people they draw from there. So we were there for, oh I bet you over a month and a half, that was �Rensi, Edward really good duty then. We had it made, nothing to do really, you know so we’d go to Frisco, San Jose, and you know had a good time, you know. Interviewer: “Okay, and how were you able to travel around, did they run buses from the camp?” Yeah buses, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright but you didn’t really have to do– Did you have any work to do, did you ever get KP or clean up the place?” Yeah I’m trying to think what I did, yeah we had to take care of the barracks like that, I think I worked in a post office for a while and also, like I said, we used to have for about six weeks or maybe more than that, we even went to Oakland and tried to get a job, get some extra spending money, that was great. Interviewer: “Alright so by the– So when then do you actually ship out, that’s in June?” (9:43) Yeah, yeah had to be June, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of ship do you go on?” It was a troop transport but I can’t tell you the name of it now. Interviewer: “Do you have an idea of how many men were on it?” Oh there was– Had to be 12 to 1,400 at least. Interviewer: “Okay, now was this like a Liberty Ship or a Victory Ship or was it bigger than that?” �Rensi, Edward It might’ve been called a U.S.S. Scott but I wouldn’t say that’s right or not but something like that, it was a big one yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now and then when you left San Francisco did people get seasick?” Oh boy, that was one of the bad features, I’ll tell you that was– That wasn’t a very good experience on that troopship just like flies packed on, and boy you got there in the morning first thing you want to do is get the hell up on the top deck cause boy there’s– And it’s all kinds of spray and everything you know from everybody– Not everyone but everyone was really heaving. Interviewer: “Alright, so did you get seasick?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, a lot of guys say they don’t and I’m never sure I believe them, so okay that’s one for you. Alright, and did your ship sail with an escort or were you by yourself?” (11:10) Oh yeah, yeah we had an escort, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and then so when you leave California, what’s your next stop?” Eniwetok, Marshall Islands. Interviewer: “Okay, so you don’t get to visit Hawaii or anything like that.” Well no not in a troop transport like that, we– Directly there. Interviewer: “Alright, let’s see now when you go out to Eniwetok, let’s see did you cross the equator or the dateline yet?” �Rensi, Edward Well when we did cross, this was when– Let me think now. Interviewer: “Well because when you’re a troop transport I don’t know if they mark that kind of thing.” No, I think after we got to Eniwetok when we headed back to the Marshall– I mean Saipan the Marianas, I think that’s the time we went through the equator and then that’s when we went through that ceremony, that was something I’ll tell you man. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so let’s kind of back up, so basically– Do you have a sense of how long it took you to get from San Francisco to Eniwetok?” No I don’t, it’s probably in my cruise book but I don’t know. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the weather like once you–” The weather must have been normal because, you know nothing stood out in my memory about the weather, yeah. (12:37) Interviewer: “Alright, and did people get used to being at sea? So did they stop all getting sick or did people–” Yeah, before we got there it tapered off, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and when you get to Eniwetok do you get to go ashore?” Oh no, no, no, no. Interviewer: “Okay, probably not a lot to do there anyway but–” �Rensi, Edward Yeah, right. Interviewer: “Okay, so how long do you think you were in port at Eniwetok?” Well not very long, when we got on the ship they had just rope ladders and we had to climb up the rope ladders with our gear, you know to get on the ship. Interviewer: “Okay, so what ship were you assigned to?” That’s when I got to California. Interviewer: “Okay, and describe the California, if someone doesn’t know what that was, what kind of ship was it?” It’s a battleship and it was 600 and some feet long– I’ve got the tons and everything, it had a 14 inch main battery and five inch 20 millimeters and 40 millimeters armaments, so it was heavily armed you know. (13:45) Interviewer: “Alright, and what kind of history did it have?” Well it’s– It was an old ship and it was at Pearl Harbor December the 7th, it was partially sunk, it was brought up and taken back to Bremerton, Washington and retreated, and that was it. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and so you’re now joining the ship’s complement.” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and when you join the California, what is your job when you get there?” �Rensi, Edward Well at first cleaning compartments, you know our division, it was division A, we were assigned to our division and cleaning compartments for a while, you know and I can’t tell you how long before I was assigned to the air compressors, wasn’t very long. One of the other fellas that was there before, you know petty officers, would take me under his wing and teach me that. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you came on there– Because you didn’t have any specialized training at all.” Oh no. Interviewer: “You were just an ordinary seaman.” Oh a little kid, yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay now what proportion of the crew do you think were new guys, were there a lot of young guys there?” (15:03) That’s a good question, I’d say that basically we were just replacements, you know and I’d say with a small percentage at that time, small percentage. Interviewer: “So a lot of the crewmen had been with the ship for a while?” Oh yes, yes definitely, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you join the ship and then you head out to sea and where are you going when you leave Eniwetok?” Well there’s Saipan, finishing up Saipan. Interviewer: “Right, so you’re going up to the Marianas. So this is the point then when you cross the equator and you have the ceremony?” �Rensi, Edward It had to be before that, between that Eniwetok and gone back to Marianas, I’ll have to look it up but definitely. Yeah that was quite a thing, you know you become a shell back then, boy you take a beating then too I’ll tell you that is some ceremony, I’ll tell you and then we crossed the equator more than once. The second time we were shellback, you know we were cocky, you know you could even come to an officer then like me being a fireman first– Second class man and make him do simple things, you know that was something. Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s kind of like a giant fraternity hazing?” Oh yeah we’re really hazing and not to forget one time this officer he was really cocky and he didn’t want to go through it, you know he tried to say stop. They had a gauntlet, a bunch of seamen like that and they had canvas bags soaked– You know they’d be soaked with water and you’d run through that and you better run damn fast because they beat the hell out of you and this guy tried to fight it, this officer, they got him down and beat the hell out of him. (17:00) Boy and everybody was just clapping because he was trying to be a big time officer, but they had to go through it too, and you had to cross through a sleeve, a big canvas sleeve and they had a fire hose, when you’d come out it hit you and they had all kinds of stuff in there like gooey stuff, you had to crawl through there and as soon as you come out they hit you with the fire hose and knock you right down, it was quite a ceremony. Interviewer: “Right, okay so you survived all that.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you got to the Marianas did the ship do any firing there?” Oh yeah that’s what is was we was– Shit, I want to say we were shelling– At first it was, it was Saipan, Tinian, then Guam and we’d just soften the beach that’s our battleship’s main objective to shell the beach and one time we had a sugar refinery and one time we had an ammunition �Rensi, Edward dumping, you know that was odd to make it a little easier for the Marines when they landed, you know. Interviewer: “Right, okay and the fighting on Saipan went on for a while, I mean Guam and Tinian were pretty quick.” Yeah. Interviewer: “So did you do any ground support– Did you do any supporting fire after the Marines landed on Saipan or were you pretty much done after landing?” No it was pretty much just more of, you know just cruising, you know yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you were in the Marianas did you see any Japanese aircraft?” (18:45) You know I don’t think we did, we had a couple bogeys, I remember that first– About one of the first– The first month I was there we had a couple at– What a bogey is is that when something’s reported unknown and you know then you go to battle stations, you know and I remember the first bogey I got hair stood up on my– Because I had a battle station and you know I kept wondering when [unintelligible] Little concerned, you know? Interviewer: “Okay, so a bogey would be an enemy aircraft or at least an unknown aircraft?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now where was your battle station?” �Rensi, Edward I was in the– They say [unintelligible] like a 20 millimeter group, that’s where 20 millimeter guns are and right off the side they’ve got like a little compartment with an opening and my job was to hand out the magazines when they needed them. Interviewer: “Right, okay so you’re basically– You’re kind of– You’re not quite a loader but you were moving the ammunition, giving ammunition to the loaders.” Yeah, right but I never had to do it, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so that’s kind of your introduction, now how much noise do the battleship guns make?” How much what? Interviewer: “How much noise do the big guns make?” (20:10) You’ll never believe it, you better have cotton and ear plugs, nowadays they got [unintelligible] but boy it is something, and oh damn when it was the main batteries ship, 14 inches the whole ship rocks, yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, I think after the war a lot of the gunners had hearing problems.” Oh yeah, I’ll bet a lot of them did, no kidding. Interviewer: “Okay, so after the Marianas do you go back to the Marshalls or what do you do after Saipan?” Let’s see now– Now we were around the Philippines then I think. Interviewer: “Well Philippines that starts I think in October, so you go–” �Rensi, Edward Let’s see, September– Interviewer: “Now there’s a point in the ship’s history where you had– The California had a collision with the Tennessee?” Oh yeah, that’s it we had a– In fact I was on watch I was on watch that night with, I had the phones on you know and main control says– You know they’ve told us that “We’re having trouble, the Tennessee is having steering problems, stand by.” You know and pretty soon they said “Stand by for crash!” And I yelled it, you know so everybody would be up cause a lot of times even though we’re under gun mounts like that guys are laying down, you know through night time and so everybody jumped up and got ready and they hit us you know and they tore a big hole in our, starboard side? I think it was starboard side, tore a big hole up there and it killed several boys up there too, it ripped a big hole in there. Interviewer: “Alright, and then how much of a shock was it, you’re standing at your station, did you get knocked over, did you hang on?” (22:10) It wasn’t really abrupt it was real just– Saw it like you know boom boom! Like that you know it wasn’t like– Interviewer: “Okay, so it was kind of almost grinding into the hull rather than a big crash.” You could hear it coming, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so after the collision where did you go? Where did you go to get the ship fixed?” Yeah, after that went to a place called Espiritu Santos, it's New Hebrides Islands, they had a floating dry dock there, a little one you know so they passed us up there. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Alright, and then while you were in the New Hebrides did they let you go ashore there?” Yeah, oh yeah they had a place they called– I forget what it was, anyhow we had it nice there we could go ashore, have a beer, throw a football, play softball so we were there– I can’t tell you how long, I can’t remember, but we enjoyed ourselves there. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay so you get a little bit of a break and– But then your next combat mission then is going to be for the invasion of the Philippines.” Philippines, that’s where it was, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you leave the New Hebrides where do you go to join the fleet or do you meet them just approaching the Philippines? Did you go to the Marshalls or Palau or any of those places?” (23:45) I think Palau, I think. Interviewer: “Yeah because we use that as a launching pad.” Yeah that’s where we got– Yeah I think that’s where it– And then the Philippines, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now at this time have you– Has your job on the ship changed, because initially you’re up there and you’re helping the gunners?” Yeah, yeah oh yeah, no I’m back in the compressors yeah, we’re with the compressors then. Interviewer: “Okay, so describe a little bit what your regular job was.” In doing battle stuff like that we’re with the compressors you know, and one time to show you how much that main barrel could shoot you– Like that we had a leak and boy on our compressors �Rensi, Edward you know, we had water lines up. Boy that was hectic everybody’s running around we finally– Had wrenches and stuff and we finally got it stopped, you know so that was exciting there that time. Interviewer: “Okay, now what were the compressors for?” Well the low pressure compressor was just for general usage around the ship just when we needed a little air, like air tools and stuff like that. Interviewer: “Okay so just for power tools.” Intermediate would be for heavier equipment stuff like that but the high compressor– High pressure compressors they would– When a main battery would shoot you they had to blow all that gas and stuff out like that. (25:28) They had to be damn sure that was out of there because if they go and try to reload, put a powder keg in there when there was heat there’d be a misfire. So had to blow that out, that was important. Interviewer: “Okay so you’re doing ventilation and you’re providing power for air compressor tools and a lot of other things but you need to push a lot of air.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay, you’re gonna run in with a ship that big in particular that would be a lot. Okay and then so was your job– What were you actually doing when you’re on watch with the compressors, are you just looking at dials?” Yeah, right, yeah you have to have gauges and make sure everything is okay you know. Yeah and then you had your station, naturally you had to keep it spotless you know, that wasn’t too bad joining the action unit because regulation was secondary then you know. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Alright, now your ship gets involved in some serious fighting in the Philippines.” Yeah. Interviewer: “There’s a battle in the area called the Surigao Straits.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now what do you remember about that?” Oh boy I remember– Before it happened the chaplain got on the ship and told us about these cities, he said “We’re gonna have the engagement area.” He said and he actually said this cause it’s in the book, he said that “Make sure you’re clean, you have a shower and clean clothes on because there could be infection.” You know he said that, you know really. (27:05) So there’s probably logic to that really, so anyhow we got thinking– Well I got thinking “Damn” seeing everything it made you think, little scary for a while. Interviewer: “Alright, and then when the battle happens what was your experience of it, are you just down in the hole?” Yeah I was in– Then I was– Interviewer: “Were you with the high power compressors or?” I was with the high power compressors then you know and so I was way down in the hole, down, way down, way back. So I couldn’t hear much or see much you know, thankful you know, so I was glad it was all over. Interviewer: “Do you have an idea of how long the battle actually lasted?” �Rensi, Edward You know what, no I don’t think it lasted that long to me. Interviewer: “Probably not.” I kept thinking “Boy oh boy when the hell will these lines break?” Interviewer: “So at that point you’re just doing your job, now could you feel sort of the rumblings of all the guns firing, do you get some vibration?” Yeah there’s some vibration even down there yeah, but not like it would be if you were up on top. Interviewer: “Right, okay so what did they tell you about the battle afterwards?” Oh after it was over they come on the P.A system and said “Secure, battle stations secure.” You know you get to relax and, you know. (29:00) Interviewer: “And then at what point do you find out what actually happened?” Well we didn’t know– You know we did get credit for, I think it was a cruiser? Interviewer: “Cruiser or an old battleship because the Japanese had a bunch of old battleships there and cruisers, so you think you sank something.” Yeah, we got scoreboard for something out there and we– See we were the old type too and the other type– Interviewer: “The Iowa class.” Yes, the Iowa class they were new but we did our part. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Right, okay now after that battle did you go up to Leyte Gulf or did you go up to the area where the landings were?” Yeah, we had to yeah, right. Interviewer: “Yeah because there’s pictures of that I think in the ship’s book but by then the landing has already taken place and the battle was already fought there because that was the area where the destroyer escorts and things were fighting the big Japanese ships.” Okay, yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, and then–” Okay, no we– Yeah. Interviewer: “And that was going on while you were having your battle?” (30:18) Yeah, right. Interviewer: “Right, okay and so you– So this is now October of ‘44, do you just stay in the Philippines area or do you go away and come back? Because you’re engaged with Lingayen Gulf and that’s January.” That was January, I remember that yeah. Interviewer: “So November, December, do you remember where you had Christmas 1944?” You know I think that’s when we were in the Philippine area but there wasn’t any action cause, you know, because I remember we had a good Christmas and a real good meal, no interruptions, and so that must’ve been that going until we got to Lingayen Gulf, that was January. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Yeah, okay let’s talk a little bit about life on the ship, what was your daily schedule like?” Well we’d go to our stations of course, you know and we always had– Just always things to do, shine up and stuff, and the main thing is you make sure everything’s operating, that was the biggest thing. Just like a watch, you know it’s like a watch you know. Interviewer: “Well how long would the watch be when you’re on duty?” About four hours. Interviewer: “Okay so you have four hours on, and then–” And then maybe eight hours off, you know and then you’d start and sometimes you’d get to four, well we had different times for then you know different ones. (32:00) 12 to four, four to eight and stuff like that and then also after a while too every once and a while we’d have to clean the compartment be like us firemen’s second one we’d have to clean the compartment for a while, take turns you know swab it and you know, so we worked. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you have your own bunk or did you have to share?” No, we had our own bunks. They were, you know tiered, you know like– You know like three bunks here, here, and here and then they folded up during the day, folded up and had your flies cover over it you know then you had the passageway. Interviewer: “Alright, and how much head room did you have, how much space was there?” Not too much, you know I was on the bottom bunk a couple times and you’d, I guess you’d hit the top, wasn’t too much you know. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Alright, and how do they feed you?” What? Interviewer: “How do they feed you, what was the food like and how did you get it?” I never complained about the food too much, you know but a lot of them did you know, but we had baked beans sometimes. Our food– That’s one thing we always had food and that what was in the engagements you know and then we would have whatever we had after that you know, but no I won’t complain about the food. Interviewer: “Okay, but you had your own cooks–” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “And that kind of thing.” (33:31) Oh yeah and have chow lines, you go and line up for chow line you try to get up there as quick as you could, if you didn’t the chow line would be from here to about maybe a couple hundred feet long or so. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah I mean how many men were in the ship’s complement?” A total of 1,200 I think, yeah 1,200. Interviewer: “Alright, so then if you’re in the wrong part of the line that can be bad, even if you’re eating in shifts.” Yeah, and I forget how many officers there were, you know. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Okay, alright so and then did you have– I mean did they show movies on the ship or have other entertainment?” Oh yeah, I mean when we were out of the battlezone, oh yeah. They would have, they called them smokers you know, and they even had movies certain times, and had boxing matches sometimes. In fact one of the chief petty officers in our division wanted to train me to box but I backed out. Interviewer: “Yeah, that'd be a good idea. Okay, alright yeah so and then I guess how many men would sleep in the same compartment?” Good question, well I’d say the whole division would be. Interviewer: “Okay, so that’s like 40 guys, 50 guys?” See our A division wasn’t that big, you saw the pictures. (35:04) Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s true. Okay, alright and of course you would sleep at different times right because some of you are on watch and some of you aren’t?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, so not too bad. Okay, alright so you have a relatively routine life there for a while after the Leyte battles and then basically describe what happens at Lingayen Gulf.” In Lingayen Gulf? Interviewer: “Yeah.” �Rensi, Edward Yeah we were there and I think it was January the 6th, I looked at the book before, I think it was January 6th and that’s when– That’s when that suicide plane hit us. Interviewer: “And what part of the ship did it hit?” It happened at the superstructure around one of the upper control towers and it was really something. Interviewer: “And that was close to your old battle station?” Well yeah, I mean you know when it hit like that the gas and flames and everything, all that stuff would come down that way you know if it was higher it would’ve hit, you know I was like here and it was up here more than superstructure where he hit. Interviewer: “And what happened to the man who replaced you?” (36:30) Well he was burnt real bad, I mean he didn’t die but he was burnt real bad, but maybe without that maybe I wouldn’t have been there, he was sticking out or something, anyhow I was at the same station. Interviewer: “Okay, now when it hit you were down below right? When the kamikaze hit you were down at your duty station?” Yeah I was in my clip room. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then did you feel or hear anything when it hit?” Oh no I think– Oh when it hit yeah. No I just, you could tell something happened you know I’d gotten– The information center put out you know we were hit, you know and you could hear stuff going back and forth but you could, you know but yeah. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Now was the damage just to that one part of the ship where it hit? So you didn’t have big fires or–” Oh yeah, oh mammoth fires you know the stuff, oh so many guys got burnt– God, you see those guys and you talk about blisters, they had blisters like that on them, see them laying around, it was after [unintelligible] of course, you know and boy what a smell, flesh. Interviewer: “Alright, and did it take a while to put the fires out? Was there–” They did a good job, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you just stay at your post the whole time?” Oh yeah, I was under that guy giving me orders. I wasn't topside, I was– Yeah, we just stayed in our place. Interviewer: “Okay, and then so afterwards now the plane has been hit, you put the fires out, now what does the ship do?” (38:38) Well I don’t know where they went then, you know I don’t know probably had to go out someplace, you know. Interviewer: “Well you had to go someplace to get repairs right?” Oh yeah, I mean so then after that naturally we– After we get squared away I don’t know how long it took we headed back to the states to get patched up in Bremerton, Washington. Interviewer: “Washington or Mare Island? Did you go to Washington or to California?” No, went to Washington. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Okay, alright– Alright and how long did you spend there do you think?” I’ll bet you we were there at least two months, two and a half months. Interviewer: “And now while you were there did you stay off the ship or were you still quartered on the ship?” We were still on the ship and the yardbirds, that’s what they call the workers yard birds, you know they work– Do their work but we– And we would go to get liberty and we’d go to Seattle a lot of times, you know we would get on the ferry from Bremerton to go to Seattle which was a nice, nice city. Interviewer: “Okay, now how did the people there treat the sailors?” What in Seattle? Interviewer: “Yeah.” (40:00) Good, good. Interviewer: “Okay, how about in Bremerton?” Good, well I’ll tell you one thing there was a restaurant there run by– I don’t know if they were Jap or some kind of oritental– Interviewer: “Probably Chinese.” Chinese maybe, okay and then he had a couple of beautiful daughters all us guys trying to go there trying to pour the– I’ll tell you what they didn’t appreciate us doing that, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, now did some of the guys get drunk and get in trouble or?” �Rensi, Edward Oh you never heard of a sailor getting drunk did you? Interviewer: “Just once and a while.” Yeah, even though we had– Hitting it pretty heavy, that’s the first time I was ever around it, the first time I had a beer was when I was in the Navy. Oh yeah, that was something, I never got in any trouble. Interviewer: “Okay, alright but and then you’re getting kind of– Now did you think the war might be over before you got back into it?” No I don’t think– We hoped it would be you know and then you know that’s when Iwo Jiwa was there, you know we missed Iwo Jima. Well that was bad and after that was over we started feeling a little better, you know we thought– You know in that respect about the war being over, not about– Yeah. (41:31) Interviewer: “Okay, so when did the ship leave Washington then? Is it now in April or–” Yeah, boy that was down in that book more. Interviewer: “Okay, let’s see well you went to Okinawa right?” Yeah, yeah from Bremerton we went to– From Bremerton went to Long Beach, I think Long Beach, California and then we had a shakedown cruise, you know just to make sure everything’s okay you know and then there went back to Okinawa, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and when you go to Okinawa had the battle already started?” Oh yeah, yeah we got there I’d say in the latter phase of it yeah, but we were there you know we still done some bombarding and stuff but yeah we go there. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Alright, now did your ship have problems with kamikazes at Okinawa, I mean did you get attacked by air?” No, not to speak of no, but they had a lotta trouble, a lotta trouble but that was more or less for the destroyers and smaller craft you know, yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah I think they were targeting the transport ships and things like that. Okay, so now while you’re there and you’re off Okinawa are you getting any news or any information about what’s happening in that battle or do you just do your job and mind your own business?” Yeah from time to time we’d get reports, yeah. Yeah in fact they would have like a bulletin time on the ship you know and they would have some write ups about so and so and they would have some write ups about the ETO, you know so we’d know what was going on in the ETO you know, so that was– (43:30) Interviewer: “Okay, now were you still in the states when Germany surrendered cause that would’ve been May, early May, of ‘45?” May of ‘45. Interviewer: “Cause you might have made it to Okinawa by then or you might have still been–” May of ‘45. Interviewer: “But you remember hearing about Germany surrendering?” Yeah, I know what you mean yeah, you know I can’t tell you. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Okay, alright now the other thing that happened along the way a little bit before that President Roosevelt died.” Yeah. Interviewer: “You remember hearing about that?” Oh yeah, that was big and that came on the PA system, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you’re there for the latter part of the battle of Okinawa and that’s over officially in early June or something like that. Now did you stay around Okinawa for the rest of the war or did you go someplace else?” Well we stayed around till the– Till they occupied Japan and then we stayed there and we covered the troops for the land unit, the troops you know? They had a big deal that was big [unintelligible] that was something big. So we covered the troops and then after that we sort of– We anchored of course after that for a while and then we got to go to shore. (45:00) So I got to go ashore twice, once in Tokyo and another province in Japan I got to go. So I was really fortunate because most of them only got to go one time but this one time this other person didn’t want to go so I said I’d go, so I got to go twice. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you went ashore what did you see?” Just observe you know, what would tickle me this one province we went to we saw these little kids, they were so cute running around and they had like a big bamboo, a big long bamboo stick and it had tar on it and they would catch dragonflies on it, you know and they’d get the dragonflies and they’d tie a thread around them and they go around with a dragonfly with a thread on it. It was clever the way they did it, you know. Interviewer: “Alright, how much– How did the Japanese people behave towards you?” �Rensi, Edward Someone asked me that the other day, when we went to Tokyo we’d walk along, you know– You know there’s still some people in those little huts you know, shacks and stuff and some of the, couple of them, even had a bottle and was grinning at you like that you know but we had strict orders: Do not fraternize, do not have anything to do with them, don’t even talk to them. You know but we don’t know maybe they were grinning, you know but what were they thinking, maybe once you take a drink that would be it, you know, we never did. Interviewer: “Alright, and how much evidence did you see of the bombing?” Oh it was something, in Tokyo you know there was different sections, you wouldn’t see anything but these big safes. So it’s a big long safe you know, you see them in different places that’s all you see and just dog burned out but that was it, the leveled it, but still there was places on Ginza Street where it still had some stores open, stuff like that. There were some sections but basically the most of the parts we’ve seen, boy they were really, I mean hit. Of course they were known for that. Their structures weren’t, you know weren’t really– (47:24) Interviewer: “Well they were made of wood and paper.” Yeah, yeah, that’s it yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah so a lot of that burnt and there were some areas that we avoided targeting so they didn’t bomb the Imperial Palace and they mostly didn’t bomb the Ginza and that kind of thing. Now when you went into the other province was that more in the countryside?” Yeah, right, yeah it was different. Interviewer: “Okay, and there was less damage there?” Right, yeah wasn’t too much there, yeah. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Okay, now were you allowed to go into any of the stores or restaurants?” Oh yeah, in fact I bought some things like I’ve got a few things for my mom and I forget just what I did get, there wasn’t too much really but there was a few things you know. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you first got to Japan were you in Tokyo Bay at the time when they signed the surrender agreements?” Oh no, no. Interviewer: “You came in later.” Yeah, yeah we did. Interviewer: “Okay, now to back up a little bit do you remember hearing about the atomic bomb?” (48:23) Yes. Interviewer: “And what kind of response was there to that or did you understand what that meant?” Well really I don’t think it soaked in right away, you know we just thought well “The war’s over boy oh boy!” We didn’t realize, you know what it actually, you know– It was sad really but it’s war, war is war you know. Interviewer: “But when you first heard about the bomb did you think that would win the war?” Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Okay, now aside from going to Japan did you sail anywhere else in the far east, did you go across to China or anywhere else?” Well after the war was over– Do you wanna hear about that? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Well after the war was over we was heading back– No we was on a goodwill tour which was great. Okay now we went to the Philippines in Lingayen Bay where that area happened, some of that stuff happened we stopped and had– Interviewer: “Did you have a memorial service?” Yeah, yep couldn’t– We had a couple of services and then there we went to Singapore and we were there for a couple days and got ashore which was really great. That was beautiful Singapore and there where people wouldn’t pay any attention to you, man I’ll tell you boy they would shun you. (50:15) Anyhow it was really nice and then from there we went to Ceylon which is Sri Lanka now, you know changed and it was really nice to and we got to go ashore a couple of times and we went with– The British were there and they had these, what they called their truck lorries, you know their big vans, big troop trucks. So we got in one of those one day and they took us inland in Ceylon to the capital Colombo you know, and it was really scenic because it was hilly you know and you would see all kinds of elephants and different people and rice paddies. It was really something and after that we went to Cape Town, South Africa, beautiful boy that was something. We got ashore there a couple of times, up on Tabletop Mountain and you take– Especially me a little kid, you know never left the county, hardly you know and boy I’ll tell you that really impressed me and we enjoyed that. So we had a wonderful time after the war coming home, now we landed in Philadelphia. Interviewer: “Okay, so you cross the Atlantic then come back.” �Rensi, Edward Yeah actually we– Oh how do you say that? We circumnavigated the globe, we really did the entire round like that and then we were in Philly from December the– I think we pulled into the states December the 7th we had planned it so we– December the 7th, you know and we were in Philly from December the 7th until May the 5th, 1946, so I had a good time in Philadelphia too, so I was one of the lucky boys I survived and had some good times. Interviewer: “Okay, so the ship was just sitting in the harbor at Philadelphia at that point for all that time?” Yeah and our job was clearing mothballs you know we had to get down and we’d be at work then and we had to get down in the bilges and scrape and put chromate paint and, you know get ready for mothballs and they get it ready for mothballs, they keep it for a couple years, and then they scrap it. Interviewer: “Right, yeah because it was an old battle ship.” Oh yeah, they should’ve scrapped it but I just was– You think they had to say “Well she did a good job, just let her go.” (52:40) You know but they put all that expense into it you know but that's right, so that was it. Interviewer: “Okay, now if you think back over the time you spent on the ship are there other memories that stand out for you that you haven’t talked about yet, other things that happened or people you knew?” Yeah there’s like some other band members you know, I haven’t thought about them you know. Interviewer: “So how much work did the band do, did they play regularly?” Yeah they played, yep and they’d even go like when we would go they would– Like when we went to Espiritu Santo they played there and sometime I think they went ashore in the Philippines one time, and we went ashore in the Philippines sometime they called it Osmensa �Rensi, Edward Beach, you know he was a politician or something for something Ahmanson and they all had all kinds of crass you know for us boys to come by. I bought a big ‘ole hat one time and bought stuff like that and you could go and buy, you know things like that. So we’d got out on shore then and I think about this one boy, he was a singer in the band and– Tell Washington he used to Linda Darnell, she was a movie star you know, I don’t know if that’s was right or wrong maybe he did cause he was from California and he was a singer you know, but he was killed. So I thought about that you know cause– And there’s a guy called Harry Gin and he was an Indian from one of the Dakotas and he was one of the guys on our Tennessee he was up there, he got– Oh there’s different things come flashing back at you, you know. Interviewer: “Okay, now you brought along a few artifacts here and maybe you can kind of show them and explain what they are, so we’ll start with this one.” Oh that’s a Navy blue dress hat, it was part of our uniform you know. Interviewer: “Can you hold it up a little bit higher? Hold it up a little bit higher like that, yeah. Okay so that’s part of the dress uniform.” (55:26) Yeah, blues, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so how often did you wear it?” Well it depends where we was, what zone you’re in, if you’re in a zone that’s real hot we had whites, usual whites. This is the hat, this is in other times but basically this is most of the time, this would be, you know like in California or something like that you know. Interviewer: “Alright, okay and then here we’ve got–” That’s a whites yeah. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Not quite as white as it used to be but alright, so that’s sort of the shirt part and then here. Now are these– Is that from the dress uniform?” Yeah this is dress blues. Interviewer: “Okay, a little higher, yeah.” And see they had that, there’s supposed to be 13 buttons there for the 13 original colonies. Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s all across the front.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, let’s see and then just a blanket here?” Yeah that was my cover blanket. (56:32) Interviewer: “Just a sort of standard issue, blanket material. Alright so– See how I’m doing here. Okay, so once you get out, you make it to ‘46, you’re discharged from the Navy, what do you do after that do you just go home?” Yeah, when I got out in 1946 I naturally came home and then I didn’t do anything for a while and then I went to Michigan, Detroit, Michigan you know in 194– Later part of ‘46, anyhow and I got a job in auto plants and I stayed there for a while and I had this one job in an assembly line for Dodge Motor’s you know and they changed models in August, so they laid me off. So I serve for just maybe three or four months, and I really liked that job but then I mean I got laid off, I went over to the Ford Motor Company and got a job over there, and I stayed there for several months and then then my dad called me and he told me he could get me a job in the coal fields and I’m a country boy you know so I come back home, which better off I stayed there really. She’s still here, she heard that, oh boy. Anyhow I come back and got a job in the coal fields you know. �Rensi, Edward Interviewer: “Now when you say coal fields are they doing strip mining there or is it underground?” Well yeah strip mining, open, I got a job there you know and I worked there for five years, I was in supply house in charge of supplies and after that I got a job as a purchasing agent and I stayed there for five years and then the company sold the mine, but the company sold the mine I work for they kept me on and sent me down the deep mines, you know down in different locations and I was down there for– I was there for– When they sent me to the deep mines they put me in charge of the supply house and I was there for 12 years, and then I retired in 1985. Interviewer: “Alright, let’s see and when did you get married?” Wait no, let me think. Got married May 13th, 1950. Interviewer: “Did he get that right?” (59:43) Off camera voice: “Right.” Interviewer: “Okay, good, okay seal of approval there. Alright, okay and to think back on it I guess to the time you spent in the service how do you think that affected you or what did you learn from that?” I think it made me realize a lot, you know what life’s all about and it can be short but overall it was really a great experience, really. Interviewer: “Alright, well it makes for a good story so thank you very much for taking your time to share it today.” Oh boy, I survived! �Rensi, Edward � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RensiE2306V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rensi, Edward C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03 Title A name given to the resource Rensi, Edward (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Edward Rensi was born on December 7, 1925 in Parlett, Ohio, and grew up in Wintersville. He received his draft notice on March 14, 1944 when he was eighteen years old and chose to enlist in the Navy. He was then bussed to Great Lakes Naval Training Station near Chicago for Boot Camp. After graduating Boot Camp, Rensi was trained off to Camp Shoemaker, California, where he awaited assignment. In June of 1944, he was shipped out on a troop transport ship from San Francisco to the Marshall Islands. Rensi was then assigned to the USS California. His duty was to clean compartments aboard the ship as well as maintain the ship’s air compressor units. The California sailed to Saipan and then up to the Mariana Islands. Offshore from Saipan and the Marianas, the California fired shells upon the beaches, inland factories, and Japanese ammunition dumps in support of the ground troops. Rensi was on watch the night the California collided with the USS Tennessee, after which he sailed to Espiritu Santo, Vanuatu Island, for repairs. The California was then prepared and redeployed from Palau to support the invasion of the Philippines. In the Lingayen Gulf, the California was struck below the upper control towers by a Japanese kamikaze plane, above Rensi’s former battle station, causing severe fires and damage to sailors and ship alike. After two months of repairs in Bremerton, Washington, the USS California traveled back to California before redeploying to Okinawa in the late spring of 1945. With the end of the war, the California anchored near Japan and Rensi was able to make it ashore twice. He recalled visiting Tokyo and a postwar memorial service in the Philippines, as well as taking other trips to Singapore, Sri Lanka, and Cape Town, South Africa. The California returned to the United States in December of 1945, docking in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where the crew prepared it for scrapping. Rensi was then discharged on May 5, 1946 and proceeded to drift around before deciding to move to Detroit, Michigan, for work on the automobile assembly lines. He was laid off several times and eventually went to work in the coal fields near his hometown before retiring in 1985. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Rensi believed the Navy was a tremendous experience, teaching him the value and meaning of life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Afghan War, 2001-2021—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc8d6a7c4e9eec05a2803aaba6e3cd92.mp4 3b85a953a65a580373de3448d1b24a38 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c386ffdc7030e7c74b0aa3566b733e2e.pdf 53f0c43b0d251afe8142da025b10e283 PDF Text Text Reeves, Cody Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Interviewee’s Name: Cody Reeves Length of Interview: (46:46) Interviewed by: Koty Leroy Rollins Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “Hello and welcome, I’m interviewing Cody Reeves of Kentwood, Michigan for the Grand Valley State Veterans History program. My name is Koty Leroy Rollins and let’s go ahead and get started. So we’re gonna start off with where were you born and what was your childhood like before you joined the military.” So I was born in Grand Rapids, local here and then I was raised in a small town just outside of Belding called Smyrna. My mother and I lived with my grandparents, my father wasn’t in the picture and it was a little bit of a broken home. I got along with my grandparents very well, I didn’t get along with my mother very well she was busy with college and work but overall I had a good childhood. (1:18) We weren’t below the poverty line or, you know, we didn't struggle or anything like that but I didn’t have many friends growing up until about high school when I started participating in sports and after school activities. From Smyrna we moved to Orleans when my mother got married to my step-father Aaron who was a Marine veteran himself and I think that’s partly what helped me choose the Marine Corps when I was determining my branch of service, cause I looked at all the options. I sat down with a recruiter from every branch and I saw what they all had to offer and the Marine recruiter was the only one that told me it was going to be difficult and at that point in my life I was trying to challenge myself to become better. I had just graduated high school with, I think, less than a 2.0 gpa, I didn’t even go– I didn’t even walk at graduation, no college would take me and my only option was a dead end job at this local grocery store, which it’s a great grocery store but there wasn’t much room for improvement there. So I joined the delayed entry program for the Marine Corps and it took me about a year before I could get to boot camp because I was so overweight and out of shape and there was also the ASVAB that we had to study for, they still do that testing. �Reeves, Cody Interviewer: “That’s the Armed Service Vocational Aptitude Battery, right?” Yes, yes that’s the test that will help determine which MOS best fits you, some jobs have certain score requirements based off of skills and abilities that you may have but the– During the delayed entry program I recruited out of Grand Rapids north and the north and the south both had their own recruiting station but we met every wednesday for what we called warrior training and it was a little bit of a precursor to boot camp. They– We started learning our knowledge about Marine Corps history and getting into physical shape, we called it PT which is just physical training and it was fun. Whoever was the most physically shaped for that day or could do the most pull ups for that session would be called the guide and they got to carry the flag for the run and then we always ran in teams of two. We would do exercises, team building workouts, competitions, we did all sorts of things, we ran 5k’s together like the river bank run, we did lots of things and it was two to three hours once a week and then we would do a Saturday once a month for like a fun event where we would do like frisbee golf or ice skating in the winter or whatever. (4:30) Interviewer: “Did they ever make it like extra difficult for you because you were out of shape or were they like understanding?” Well it wasn’t like they were extra difficult, it was more of they gave you the information that you needed and they helped you along the way but it was ultimately your drive and your motivation that got you where you wanted to be. They pushed you but you were never pushed so far that you would break but they have to push you because your mental state will stop before your physical body if your physical body ever stops so you need the push to actually get the improvements that they need but after about a year I’d lost like 60 pounds and I went from doing no pull ups to 23 pull ups and I went from doing like 40 sit ups to 120 sit ups and– Interviewer: “That is quite the improvement.” �Reeves, Cody And then I got to basic training and I was no longer– Like I thought I was in great shape but by the time you get to basic training you’re not in as great shape as you think you are. I had made so much progress but the standard for the Marine Corps physical fitness is pretty high. Interviewer: “Where did you go to basic training at?” I went to basic training in San Diego, California which was great because after I had finished basic training they changed the method that they use and I would have had to go to Parris Island if I enlisted any later. Interviewer: “Where’s Parris Island at?” That’s in South Carolina. Interviewer: “Yeah, California is definitely the better option.” (6:08) Oh it was way better but going into basic training I had to– I was still trying to cut weight cause I was still over the weight limit because I was so short that the weight limit was like 160 and any muscular guy will tell you it’s hard to maintain 160 at 5’6, you’ll almost always be over that but the Marine Corps has procedures like body weight percentage and that you can tape out but to get to basic training you had to actually make weight. So I was cutting weight and then it was the flight over there and then before you actually do your initial physical testing there’s three to four days of processing where they already start the psychological games by not letting you sleep and you’re just put in lines and you wait in line to go through dental, to go through health screening, physical check ups, they get you all the admin paperwork done, next of kin, you’ve got the SGLI, and then gear issue and the whole product– Because there’s so many people being processed it takes a couple days and kind of breaks you down which is what they’re going for, the whole goal of breaking someone down to build them back up to what you need them to be and you go into what’s called a holding platoon before you’re actually in the platoon that you’ll stick with through basic training and it was kind of funny. So when you’re in the holding platoon they’re not quite like drill instructors then, they still lead you around and they like– You get �Reeves, Cody everyone– The drill instructors get everyone dressed together and showered together quickly and efficiently but they’re not quite yelling at you or drilling you or they’re not– Cause you’re still in that processing state, but as soon as that’s over you do your initial test and then they call it black Friday when you actually meet your drill instructors and it was a pretty life changing moment for me. That was– Up until that moment I had only thought that okay this is gonna be hard but you know I can do this, and then black Friday came and my opinion changed and I was like this is terrifying, this is not what I knew, this is nothing like I expected and I had heard many storied and watched YouTube videos but once you’re actually there it’s quite different. It’s a lot of controlled chaos, looking back at it now if I had to go through it again it would be easy because I know all of the psychological games and I know the tricks and I know what they’re doing, but at the time just 18 year old Cody was terrified. Black Friday starts off with your senior drill instructor introducing the four sub drill instructors– Interviewer: “Okay, so you had five overall.” (9:12) You had five overall, or I had five overall it differs from platoon to platoon, each– So the senior drill instructor is in charge of all of them while as each drill instructor has a specific duty. There’s one drill instructor for actual drill, marching, there’s one for rifle marksmanship, there’s one for knowledge like studying history and passing the final test at basic training, and then there’s another one that doesn't actually talk and just goes around yelling and it’s great that actually serves a very good purpose. Interviewer: “So would he be like going around correcting people–” Yes, correcting people Interviewer: “Or is he just yelling at people for no reason?” Well no, no one’s ever yelled at for no reason, if you’re not doing anything wrong and a drill instructor is yelling at you it’s probably because he’s trying to stress you out during some sort of event or test because nothing in the military is ever done without stress. So they have to simulate �Reeves, Cody some sort of level of stress to know that your body can adapt and handle and there’s– It’s nothing– There’s nothing that’s ever too much or too far, it feels like a lot and it’s difficult but these are trained professionals. There’s a whole medical branch in– On the base, they have a hospital, there’s ambulances, there’s fire trucks, they have their own police department, their own fire department, and their own hospitals and there’s many professionals that go into creating this program that’s structured to create a Marine from a regular civilian and I enjoyed it. It was by far the most challenging thing I’ve done in my life up until this point. One thing I can remember was you always got enough sleep but it wasn’t like you got to– You didn’t get to choose when you slept but you got enough sleep, they were required to make you sleep for eight hours but that meant that everything was rushed. So– Blank, everyone in the platoon made their bed at the same time, in the same way, got in their bed the same time, the same way and went to sleep at the same time, it the same way. Interviewer: “Okay, so how long was your camp?” It was three months, I can’t remember exactly how many training days, I think it was 70 training days. (12:00) Interviewer: “Okay, and is this like broken down into segments like here’s your basic stuff, here’s where you focus on rifles?” Yes, it is broken down, there’s a really good calendar online that breaks it down day by day and it shows you the receiving period, the transition period, then it tells you when black Friday is and then there’s rifle week, swim week, drill week, knowledge week. There’s a bunch of different sections and there’s even a– There’s even the last week after you’ve passed basic training but haven’t finished basic training where you graduate from calling yourself, or referring to yourself as a recruit to now referring to yourself as a Marine and it’s one of the most satisfying feelings that I can remember because just as recruits you weren’t allowed to walk around by your own but once you were in that last final week you could go in pairs to the store or the barber shop, you know just in pairs and if you went by any drill instructors instead of calling them a drill instructor you would call them by their rank or instead of calling them sir you would call them �Reeves, Cody by their rank and they would refer to you by your rank and name or no longer as a recruit, as a Marine and that was like the first moment that I had a sense of pride in what I had accomplished and at that moment I hadn’t realized what I would go on to do later but I was still happy that I had made it. There was a few times where it got rough and this was the first moment that I had ever been away from my family so it was a little more difficult than I thought. We always had Sundays off, if you didn’t do anything on Sunday then you had to stay in the platoon– Or stay with the platoon like studying or you know working out or doing something like that but it was free time, it was just structured free time you know they still wanted you to be constructive. Interviewer: “That little bit of freedom makes it even more strict once you get to it but it makes you more accepting of that strictness right?” Yeah, I went to church every Sunday even though I wasn’t religious it was just nice to go and it was actually really interesting. The way that church is set up is you would– So a whole platoon of 80 people would sign up for whatever their religion was and then you would write your name down and then you would all go together and you’d have to march there in a group of the rest of the people with the same religion and then we were given directions to the church and people would be watching us as we went there but once we got there it was like a whole different environment. (15:18) People were singing and cheering and there was just this overall sense of a really strong bond between everyone, and I didn’t know any of these people they were just all strangers that were doing the same program that I was doing and that alone through hardship was enough to create a bond between us and a lot of people cried, a lot of grown men cried. Interviewer: “Hey, nothing wrong with that.” It was powerful. Interviewer: “Now I know with Navy boot camp there’s lots of different denominations of churches. Was it just like you know the big religions like Christianity and Judaism and Islam, or was there also like smaller religions like Hindusim and Confucianism there?” �Reeves, Cody They covered any religion. Interviewer: “Okay.” If your religion wasn’t covered then there was like a fall-to church you could go to where they would let you do self practice on your own in a room. Interviewer: “Okay so like a non-denominational one.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, that’s really interesting. So once you got out of boot camp what did you do after that?” So the first step after boot camp is to go to Marine– It’s called MCT which is Marine combat training and there’s two different ways that the MCT follows on school goes. (16:37) You’re either an infantry MOS or you’re a non infantry MOS. Interviewer: “What does MOS stand for?” Military occupation school, so the Marine combat school is the precursor before MOS school and if you’re a non infantry MOS your MCT is 30 to 45 days and then you actually go to your job schooling, whereas if you’re an infantry MOS your MCT includes your combat– Includes your MOS school and it’s right there in the same place so because I was a radio operator I didn’t have– I had a non infantry MOS, my MCT was about a month long, it was in Camp Pendleton and that was when they really focused on the combat aspect of the Marine Corps and that was where we learned the strategies for war fighting and how to properly maintain and fire a multitude of different weapon systems. I learned how to shoot the M-4, M-16 variants as well as the Mark 240 Bravo machine gun, the 50 caliber machine gun, Mark-19 grenade launchers and that was as much as I got to train on. If you had an infantry MOS you would go even more detailed in those training and then they go on to do a few other weapon systems as well. �Reeves, Cody Interviewer: “Okay, and did you go there with your platoon from boot camp or were you sent there individually?” So you’re sent there individually but you end up seeing a lot of the people that you were in basic training with, some people are actually lucky enough to go through basic training, MCT, and MOS school all together and then hit the fleet and get their first duty stationed together. It’s rare but it does happen. Interviewer: “Okay, so after your combat training– Well during your combat training was there any interesting things that happened, like did they make you simulate like being in a week long battle or anything like that?” We did– We did lots of drills with blank rounds and we did lots of practicing in the field but there were no– There was no actual week long field experiences. (19:00) Interviewer: “So no like simulations or anything.” No, going back to basic training though there was a three day long crucible where we were in the field for three days with only one meal that you had to ration out and you had to carry your own– All your own supplies and you had to travel between location, location and that was sort of the culmination of all the events where all knowledge was tested and the final hike on the last day after barely sleeping and barely eating and doing all this training and team exercises and tests and after finishing all that because we were in San Diego there’s this pretty monumental location at the top of a hill that you hike to and that’s when you receive your eagle globe and anchor and it was a pretty emotional time for a lot of people there too. Interviewer: “So that’s where you officially earn the title Marine.” That’s when you officially earn the title. �Reeves, Cody Interviewer: “Okay, so after that you had your combat training and where was your MOS school at?” So my MOS school was in 29 Palms, California and that’s where all communication schooling is, 29 Palms is also the home to Camp Wilson which is where they do ITX which is integrated training and that’s when you– That’s where all pre-deployment units go. Interviewer: “Okay, what was your MOS school like, was it as strict as boot camp?” I would say MOS school was less strict than boot camp but more strict than MCT. We still had to march everywhere, you weren’t allowed– You were considered a student status now so you couldn’t have a vehicle, you couldn't drink, you weren’t allowed to like wear civilian clothing yet, you know classes were every day Monday through Friday, all day from eight to five with 15 minute breaks between classes, you were required like some sort of max set of pull ups between classes or something to keep you in shape between classes because there was no– (21:25) There wasn’t as much physical training in MOS school so to stay in shape we always did something, whether it was a morning run or some fun activity after classes before studying or just like little workouts between classes, the desert heat was rough. Interviewer: “I’ll bet, so that’s in Northern California then?” No, that's Southern California. Interviewer: “Okay, oh yeah deserts are in the south. So nothing really eventful happened in your MOS school?” Nothing eventful, I just remember that the material was hard to learn it was the equivalent to taking a college exam every week for about a month, month and a half straight. Every week was a subject they called them annexes, annexes A through F and the annex would be a radio system that we’d have to learn to include every detail of how to operate, troubleshoot, fix, and maintain �Reeves, Cody and the amount of knowledge was about a semester’s worth of information stuffed into a week and then tested. Interviewer: “Okay, that’s pretty intense.” The failure rate was not super high but that’s because if you didn’t pass you just got sent back a week and got picked up with a different platoon to try again. Interviewer: “Was there like a limit to how many times you could be sent back before they just like sent you somewhere else?” I’m sure there was a limit but when I went through they were trying to get people so they would send you through as many times as you need. Interviewer: “Okay, and so it was about six weeks, you said for annex.” (23:10) I’d say it was 45 training days. Interviewer: “Okay, after that where’d you go?” So the last week of MOS school you get your first orders and my first duty station was Camp Lejeune and I got sent to 8th Regiment which is one of the highest companies you can be sent to, I was at the H&S company for the whole regiment. Interviewer: “What does H&S stand for?” Headquarters and support company, and then I spent my first couple months at 8th Reg training just for whatever. At that point there’s really no expectations it’s just kind of like a day job, you show up in the morning, run with your platoon, with– And then we were all radio operators because it was broken down by section. So all the radio operators would show up in the morning at 6:00 a.m, we’d run together, we’d go get breakfast, we’d be to work by nine, we’d work until �Reeves, Cody noon, we’d eat until one, then we’d work again until four and go home and then you were free until the next day and then after a couple months 8th Reg sent me to 1st Battalion 8th Marines. They were preparing for a deployment to Romania for Black Sea rotational– B surf, the Black Sea rotational force. Interviewer: “And what year was this?” This was 2015, about mid 2015, the work– They call them work ups before deployment, you do about six to nine months of training for the nine month deployment and I arrived at 1-8 about a month or two into their training, which was fine because I had been training so hard on my own that I was already at their level, and then I trained with them for the rest of their three to four months before deployment and then we went to Romania about early 2016 and we were there for about eight months. Interviewer: “Okay, so were you in Romania or were you like on a ship near Romania?” (25:26) We were actually stationed in Romania at an old Army air base, it’s called MK it was a really nice base I have a lot of good memories there. Deployment life is a little bit different than fleet life, we were eight to room with four bunk beds and four lockers, with shared showers and shared bathrooms but it was– Again that was a lot like a day job where you would PT in the morning with your section, work until– Work from nine to five or nine to four and then go home but when you were done with work you were still confined to the base until a certain time that they would let you go out in town and that was fun, seeing different cultures is great. I got to do a lot of volunteering at an orphanage nearby, it was more of a foster home there two parents took care of about 18 kids in varying ages from newborns to 17 year old kids and we did a lot of volunteering with them just spending time with the kids or painting building or played a lot of sports with them, was a pretty good experience. Interviewer: “So the locals were pretty happy to have you then?” �Reeves, Cody Yes, they were. Interviewer: “I know this was during kind of a tense period between America and Russia.” Yes this was when everyone was sort of concerned with what Russia was doing and we were there to deter Russian aggression and I guess we succeeded because nothing ever happened. Interviewer: “That’s a good way to look at it and yeah I know a lot of places aren’t too happy to have Americans there but it sounds like the Romanians were pretty happy cause– ” Yeah, yeah they definitely wanted us there they were glad, we did a lot of training with like the Romanian military as well. Interviewer: “Was that difficult due to language barriers or anything or did they speak–” (27:40) A lot of them knew English, so I would say it wasn’t that difficult. Interviewer: “Okay, did you guys have like a Romanian linguist or anything?” Yes, we did, we had a Russian linguist and a Romanian linguist. Interviewer: “Okay, so did anything eventful happen in that deployment other than working at the orphanage?” Nothing, nothing that I can say. Interviewer: “Fair enough, and afterwards you went back to the states?” �Reeves, Cody So yes, coming home from deployment was– It was an emotional time coming home, everyone waits for you and then you come in on buses and you have to go to the armory first to drop weapons off. So you drive by everyone waiting for you and there’s like a huge party that’s got a gazebo set up with tables and food and they got a bouncy house for kids and there’s hundreds of parents here and yeah from there I went back to 8th Reg because I was only temporary with 1-8 but I was only with 8th Reg for another couple months before I got sent to 2nd Battalion 6th Marines. Interviewer: “And this was in 2016 right?” This was in– Yeah this would’ve been the middle of 2017, early to middle 2017. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do there?” So at 2-6 it was the same thing I did at 1-8 except now I was two– You know two and a half years of experience with the deployment as an E3. (29:30) So I was already, you know top of the game there were not many other people that already had one deployment overseas with two years experience and got the type of training and experience that I did because when we were in Romania we were always working and challenging ourselves to do better and we were talking to Germany and we were talking to Turkey and I got really good at what I did. Interviewer: “Yeah, so we were working real close with all of our ally countries over there essentially.” Yes, and we also worked with the Army. Interviewer: “Okay, did you have any Navy support out in the Black Sea or is that sort of– ” Yes, so we as a Marine Corps we take Navy with us wherever we go but there’s also Army medical on the base but the Navy corpsmen that we take with our platoon they carry all the �Reeves, Cody medical supplies that we need for a company or a platoon or whatever but going back to return from deployment into six, when I got to 2-6 H&S company I knew by this point that I wanted to be with the infantry and I requested that and they told me which infantry companies had platoons that needed radio operators and because I was the most experienced radio operator in the company I got to choose where I wanted to go. I chose to go to weapons company, CAT platoon which is the combined anti-armor team for the weapons company. The weapons company is the company that has like the heavy gun support for the line companies which is the ground troops. So we rolled around in humvees and gun turrets, I won’t get into specifically the strategics of how our CAT platoon worked but we were in humvees and it was convenient but it was also a curse. We had to sleep in the vehicles and you had to maintain the vehicles and they broke down so much and carrying around ten guns that large not any fun. Interviewer: “Where was this at?” So this was in– This was still in Camp Lejeune and I got– I went to them just before they were doing a work up for the 26th MEU so that work up was a little bit different and I hit that company a little bit later. (31:54) So they were about– They were over halfway done with their training but I had just, you know recently came off a deployment and was still pretty knowledgeable.So I wasn’t really worried the only thing I had to learn was how to apply this new knowledge and experience I had to a mobile, you know vehicle based unit that they were which wasn’t too hard. The jump in responsibility was crazy, I went from being just one of many R.O in a section to being the only radio operator in charge of the whole platoon and that meant signing off for a lot of gear, handling my own crypto, doing all my own programming, and I also had to teach everyone in the platoon how to use the gear because we were in vehicles, we would split up. I’m only in one vehicle I can’t see and operate all, you know 24 radios that we had not to mention all of the personal radios that the important people carried and so I had to do a lot of teaching and explaining and– Interviewer: “Oh, sorry–” Go ahead. �Reeves, Cody Interviewer: “I’m assuming these were not just like walkie talkie shortwave radios right.” Oh no, these were complicated encrypted brick radios, they were old school but it was complicated enough to where it was secure. That– It was the precise complication of crypto that made them so difficult to operate, just the radio itself isn’t that hard to operate but once you start encrypting and you know securing the net then it becomes– There’s many factors that you have to troubleshoot. Interviewer: “Okay, and you were in charge of all of that.” Yes. Interviewer: “So that’s a lot of pressure for, what were you 20 at this time?” I was 21. (33:50) Yes, so I went from not being in charge of anything, just operating and doing my job to actually being responsible for millions of dollars worth of gear and I maintained a secret clearance working under the NSA, getting crypto from them and putting it in the radios and doing all the proper procedures there. Interviewer: “So that was probably a pretty work intensive part of your life huh?” Yeah, it was the most stressful job I’ve ever had. Interviewer: “Did you ever deploy with that unit?” Yes, so we deployed on the 26th MEU and– So the 26th MEU was, that’s like– I’m trying to think of how to put this. So the way the MEU works is there’s three ships that travel around the ocean and it’s pretty classified but what I can say is that it’s a force in readiness. The MEU is just, they don’t have a purpose beyond the purpose of just being ready for whatever the world needs, �Reeves, Cody Interviewer: “So it’s a reactionary force.” It is a reactionary force, you know the Marines live by the fact that we can be anywhere the United States needs in 24 hours, anywhere in the world and that’s because we have like a MEU which is the Marine Expeditionary Unit that’s always out somewhere doing something, and that’s mainly just training. We got to stop in Italy for training, Greece for training, Jordan for training. Interviewer: “Did you ever get to spend any time in these wonderful locations or were they just sort of taunting you?” Oh yeah, we did lots of, we called them liberty calls, where you get to come off the ship and just do whatever you want in town as long as you’re back by the right time and don’t break any laws. That’s when the language barriers really did get a bit rough but it’s not that bad, it can be overcome. (35:50) Interviewer: “So how long were you with the MEU?” That was a nine month deployment. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you went back to Camp Lejeune?” Yes. Interviewer: “Alright, what happened then?” After that deployment I started doing my transition to like the civilian world, went through TRS, started like turning in my gear and getting the paperwork ready to actually leave the Marine Corps. �Reeves, Cody Interviewer: “What’s TRS?” TRS is the transitionary readiness seminar. Interviewer: “Okay, do you feel like they actually got you ready to be a civilian?” I feel like it is a step in the right direction, they never used to have these programs and now they do and they’re helpful yeah but I feel like me personally didn’t learn much because I was taught in high school how to do resumes and a lot of what they taught us I had already knew but you know everything can be improved and they are– They’re working on it. Interviewer: “So after that you just transitioned out and came back to Grand Rapids?” Mhmm, then I signed up for Grand Valley and pursuing a degree in Psychology. Interviewer: “Okay, and what are you gonna do with that?” (37:07) Well I’m interested in taking my psychology degree and joining the National Guard to do some sort of behavioral health science as I work towards a master’s in psychology. Interviewer: “Okay, so you want to go back as like an officer then?” Yes. Interviewer: “Alright, why the National Guard and not the Marines?” The National Guard officer offers programs that I can do while in college locally and– Interviewer: “Marines just don’t have these programs?” �Reeves, Cody Well they have the programs but like the specific program that I’m looking for is– National Guard they’re the only ones that offer a specific officer commissioning program while still in college. There are many programs in every branch and specifically for what I wanted to do I’m thinking the National Guard is the best fit. Interviewer: “Okay, and are you gonna try and retire out of there?” Yes I would like to retire out of– I don’t know if I’m gonna retire out of the National Guard, once I commission as an officer I can transition to any branch, it’s just the program to commission as an officer when I graduate is only offered by the National Guard. Otherwise I’d have to get my degree and then go to officer candidate school and I don’t really want to do that. I’ve already been to basic training and all these other schools, going back again and being the lowest man on the totem pole and working my way back up just isn't required. They have these programs where once I get 90 credits I can start doing an officer candidate school part time for 18 months and then I’ll graduate as an officer with a degree and then I can commission full time into the National Guard, the Army, the Navy, wherever I want to go as long as I, you know fit their requirements. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah maybe we can do this interview again in about 20 years.” (39:10) Maybe. Interviewer: “So I’m just gonna go over a few more things.” Okay. Interviewer: “Now that we’ve got pretty much the timeline set up, can you tell up a little more about your job or is that too–” No, I can do that. So as a radio operator you’re in charge of maintaining, operating, and like taking care of radio gear. There’s many different radio systems, the different radio systems have �Reeves, Cody different jobs and that’s based off of the radio frequencies. There’s a couple different radio frequency bands, there’s high frequency, very high frequency and ultra high frequency and these frequency bands overlap a little bit but typically once you get into a different frequency band you’re going to need a different radio system. So the trucks work– The trucks had vehicle mounted systems that sat in the front seat in the middle between the driver and the passenger and it was two radio systems side by side. They were powered by the vehicle so they had a high amount of wattage and that produced a stronger signal and my job was doing– To do the programming, to get the vehicles talking to each other and then talking to whoever we’re working with and then I had to have radios for each individual person that wanted one and those were on different channels and different frequencies with a different encryption so that they could talk amongst each other but it wouldn’t interfere with anything that was coming on the radio and the vehicles and then like if we’re a hundred miles away from the ship a very high frequency radio system’s not going to reach that high whereas a high frequency radio could so you’d have to have a different portable radio system that you could pull out of the truck, set up and talk back to the ship, you know once and while and then pack it back up, get back in, and leave. So on top of being able to operate these radios I had to teach everyone else to operate the radios I had to teach everyone else how to maintain the radios, they broke a lot so we did lots of preventative maintenance, cleaning, troubleshooting, and many classes of just sitting down and like trying to teach them what I learned in a couple months. (41:55) Interviewer: “Okay, I bet that was pretty stressful cause these were just general infantry Marines that you were teaching to do this.” They were all infantry MOS’s yes, they varied from machine gunners to riflemen to missile men, they all learned very well it’s just it’s not material that they were used to seeing and it wasn’t their job so it’s hard sometimes to make someone passionate about something that they don’t understand and that they don’t see a use for. A lot of them see their job as being a sole operation which means the infantry can operate on their own, when in reality the infantry is supported by the rest of the Marine Corps. �Reeves, Cody Interviewer: “Yeah, did you ever have any like issues, like confrontations with them or any of the officers with them or anything?” I didn’t personally have any confrontations but I mean there was always drama that’s just natural to life and society, there’s gonna be drama. Nothing that was so bad we couldn’t overcome it. Interviewer: “Okay, and I know with the Marines they kind of hammer in the whole one single cohesive unit.” Yes. Interviewer: “You guys are like an interlocked family almost.” Yeah, and I’d say overall that was pretty true, everyone maintained a pretty close bond, we all knew everyone very well, first name basis. I knew everyone’s hobbies, what they like to do, what they didn’t like, I knew where they were from, I knew their families, their sisters, their brothers. I was really good friends with their girlfriends, their wives, we were all really close we all worked together as a team and supported each other. (43:55) Interviewer: “Okay, that’s good. Was it hard to be away from your family?” So when you’re deployed to a base it’s easy to get on wifi or and get on facebook or make a phone call or video chat or whatever, it would be no more difficult than being away from your family back in Michigan you know. I may not be able to actually go see them but I can pick up the phone and call them whenever I want. It’s a little bit different when you’re on ship, the internet's shaky at best, we go in a lot of different security settings where the ship’s not allowed to talk at all, no incoming or outcoming traffic, you go weeks without being able to communicate with anyone other than on the ship and it’s hard sometimes but other times it just goes by so quickly, that you’re so busy you don’t realize you haven’t talked to your parents in months. �Reeves, Cody Interviewer: “Yeah, especially on the ship where you don’t even get any off days right, you’re just kind of going, going, going.” Yeah, I mean you get off days but like even your off days are still, like you’re still on ship and you still have to contribute to ship life. Interviewer: “Yeah, how bad was the food on the ship?” It was terrible, they tried their best to make good food and sometimes they did, sometimes we would stop in Italy and they could pick up some steaks or lobsters and it was great, but for the most part it was just pretty standard– I mean it wasn’t terrible or inedible but it’s not a five star meal. Interviewer: “It’s about as good as you can get with powdered eggs.” Yes. Interviewer: “Did you have any issues with the Navy while you were on there?” (45:45) I personally didn’t have any issues with the Navy, I enjoyed the Navy I made a lot of friends, there were issues between the Marines and the Navy just because of different culture and just the way that we were brought up I guess the differences, but we didn’t have any huge issues. Interviewer: “Okay, alright was there anything else you wanted to talk about?” Not that I can think of. Interviewer: “Alright, so you got out in 2018 right?” Yeah I got out in November of 2018. �Reeves, Cody Interviewer: “And I can tell you’ve been going to Grand Valley State so that’s good. One last question that we always try to ask everybody, knowing what you know now would you do it again?” Yes. Interviewer: “Just in a heartbeat, yes?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, well that’s good to know maybe we’ll sit down and talk again some other time but looks like that’s it for us today.” Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ReevesC2296V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reeves, Cody Michael Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02 Title A name given to the resource Reeves, Cody (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Cody Reeves was born in Grand Rapids and was raised in Smyrna, Michigan, by his mother while living with his grandparents. When he and his mother moved to Orleans and she married his stepfather, a Marine veteran, Reeves was greatly influenced to join the Corps. Since he never earned sufficient grades in high school, no college was willing to admit him, so he opted to join the Marine Delayed Entry Program as a way to challenge himself towards improvement. For Basic Training, Reeves was sent to San Diego, California. He spent three months in Basic Training before graduating onto Marine Combat Training at Camp Pendleton and then Non-infantry Military Occupational School in Twentynine Palms, California, through which he became a radio operator. After graduating from MOS, Reeves was sent to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, with the Headquarters and Support Company, 8th Marine Regiment where he trained for later assignment. He was then transferred to the 1st Battalion, 8th Marine Division in preparation for deployment and stationing in Romania in 2015 to deter Russian aggression in the region. In Romania, his unit was stationed at an old Army Air Base and lived a very routine life of exercise, work, and leisure. He also recalled friendly relations with both the Romanian military and civilian population. After his tour in Romania, Reeves was transferred into the 2nd Battalion, 6th Marine Division in 2017 and was sent back to Eastern Europe. He then began close work with American military allies before opting to join the infantry platoons as a radio operator, assigned to the Weapons Company of the Combined Anti-Armor Team out of Camp Lejeune. As a member of the greater Marine Expeditionary Unit, he and his platoon were deployed, without objective, aboard ships traveling around the world. After this tour, Reeves left the service in November of 2018 and began transitioning back into civilian life, although he found the Corps’ assistance relatively basic and lackluster. He then moved back to Grand Rapids where he enrolled into Grand Valley State University and pursued a degree in psychology. Reflecting upon his service in the Corps, Reeves believed he formed close bonds to the men in his units and that the internet and cell phones made communicating with home far easier. Ultimately, if he were given the option to enlist again, Reeves would do so in a heartbeat. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1645c14563bf28ad2ff66ba34ecc2c9c.mp4 6bdd4d9f16ad89ec4873a215b78e8237 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f8830e891b4b868c95d859dcdb6c8a5.pdf ffd231e7d19f933bddfe1e84e5524289 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Bruce Nelson Length of Interview: 53:54 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Sam Noonan Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Bruce Nelson of Hutchinson, Minnesota. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Bruce you can start with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were you born?” Born in ’49 in Wabasha, Minnesota. Raised in Kellogg, just seven miles south. Interviewer: “Alright, and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?” Dairy farm. Yep. Interviewer: “And then did you grow up on that farm?” Grew up on that farm, my father died when I was fifteen. Interviewer: “So did you stay on the farm at that point?” No, I didn’t. I was sent to a private school, in Hutchinson, Minnesota, and that’s where I met my wife – future wife. Interviewer: “Okay, let’s see – when did you graduate from high school?” 1967. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you’re graduated?” Oh, I don’t know – set the world on fire like any other graduate. Got married the following year and got drafted the year after that. Interviewer: “Okay, did you have a job at that point?” Yes I did. Interviewer: “What were you doing?” I worked in a foundry. In the summertime, we made castings. And my job was a shaker, they called it. And I’d take the castings out of the molds that they were in and take the sand, and that would be reused. �Interviewer: “Okay. So that period there… ’67, ’68, ’69, were you paying much attention to the news from Vietnam, and that kind of thing?” (1:34) Um, I was going to a trade school at the time to become an auto mechanic, so during the second year I became – you know, broke like everybody else, and had to go work, and that’s when Uncle Sam sent me a letter. I was no longer - had, have any student deferment. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you were – because you were in school at that point that’s sorta why you didn’t get drafted right away?” Correct. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. So now you get your draft notice, and when do you have to report?” Boy, I don’t remember the specific dates, but it’d be in June sometime. Interviewer: “Of ’69?” Yes. ’69. And we were married at the time, and.. [my] wife drove me to Wabasha, you know, date of birth, and I rode on a bus to Minneapolis. And then I got sent on a train to Seattle. Interviewer: “Okay, now did they process you in Minneapolis?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay did you have a physical there?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay. Now how serious a physical was it?” Ha! I don’t know, basically you strip down with a bunch of other guys in the same room, and you know, you do the cough test and basically if you’re warm, you’re in. Interviewer: “Right. Did you notice anybody trying to get out of it one way or another?” No. Interviewer: “Okay. Some places that happened, some that didn’t.” You know, [we were] just mostly farm kids. Interviewer: “Mhm. Alright. And so where did they send you for basic training?” Well they tried to send me to Seattle, but I had written down on, I don’t know, one of the forms they have that I was a conscientious objector. Which meant I automatically became a medic. Which is what I wanted to do. And so after a few weeks of harassment in Seattle, they flew me to Dallas and I took a bus to Fort Sam, which is [in] San Antonio. �Interviewer: “Yeah, okay. Now had you ahead of time done anything – I think we were talking before, off-camera a little bit about your church or whatever you had, some idea that you were—” (3:51) Yeah, um… Desmond Doss, who was a medal of honor winner in World War 2, was kind of my… I don’t know, hero – as far as a medic goes, and I went to training at the church offered to, how to become a, you know, a good medic and what to expect. Interviewer: “Okay, now when did you do that?” I went two years, actually – one I was a junior in high school during that summer, which would’ve been ’66, and again in ’67 right out of high school. Interviewer: “Okay, and so was that kind of in anticipation that you might get drafted or…?” Yeah. I mean, everybody I knew was getting drafted so… Interviewer: “Okay, so you had that in your background, you kind of knew what to ask for and what to put on the form, and—” Sure. Interviewer: “Alright. So how did spend – so you were actually at Fort Lewis then, for a couple of weeks first. How did you spend your time up there?” Trying to explain to the people in charge that ‘I was right and you were wrong.’ Which is very difficult. Interviewer: “So how did you manage to win that argument?” There was no choice, in my mind. It was either I was [a medic] or I wasn’t. Very direct, you know and then they had to go through their records and make sure that I was, you know telling them the correct story. And I eventually won. Interviewer: “Okay. Alright, so now onto Fort Sam Houston, San Antonio – what was the basic training like for medics?” More harassment – oh, for medics? Interviewer: “Well, I guess what did you get first?” Takin’ me a while to boot this up in my head. The first few months is just you know, drills and more harassment and that sort of thing. So the real training for medics didn’t start ‘til the latter, I think it was a three-month course. And then we were taught the basic emergency medical procedures, you know how to stop the bleeding, how to put splits on fractures and that sort of thing. And we gave each other shots, so we used each other as guinea pigs. �Interviewer: “Just to back up a little bit to the first part, the basic training part – were all of you there – you’re all gonna be medics, was that…” Correct. Interviewer: “Now, did you do weapons training?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, now did they just kind of exempt the conscientious objectors from that, or did you just not do it at all?” I don’t think we really did it at all. We weren’t all conscientious objectors, so I can’t speak for everybody but I did not receive any weapons training – born on a farm in the woods, out in the river and you know, coon hunting as a kid and all that, so I was familiar with weapons, just not weapons of war. Interviewer: “Right. So that wasn’t part of your training program, now did they in those first weeks there, you said there was a lot of harassment, is this the kind of spit-andpolish discipline stuff or?” Yeah. You know, you gotta have your shoes polished, and spit-shines and all that good stuff and your clothes wrinkle-free and… so yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to just being in the Army?” (7:45) I was just doing my time. You know, it was – I don’t know, there wasn’t much of an adjustment … it was more of a duty. Interviewer: “So you just did what they told you to do?” Yeah. Stay out of trouble and you’ll be fine. Interviewer: “Now were there people that you were training alongside who were having more trouble or were trying to push back?” Well there’s always show-offs. Yeah, just let ‘em go and they can make fools of themselves by themselves. I usually stayed clear of those kind of people. Interviewer: “Okay. And then from there you’re getting – the training that you’re getting as a medic, are they preparing you really to be a combat medic or is this more hospital duty stuff?” Combat medic. Interviewer: “Okay. What would they – do they take you out into the field at all?” �Yeah, but that was mostly for endurance. There were no actual… everything was like make believe, it was all pictures. There was no real hospital work or anything like that. Interviewer: “And they didn’t have you out on a mock battlefield or anything like that?” Towards the end they did, and then there was live fire that you had to, you know low crawl through and – but everybody did that. Interviewer: “Now did they tell you anything about priorities, for sort of ‘who do you treat first’ or that kind of thing, the triage or did that not come there?” No. That was not addressed. Interviewer: “Okay, cause I guess the Navy corpsman serving with the Marines that was part of what they got, but they had a different program than what you had.” Yes, they were more hospital trained – my brother was a corpsman in the Navy for four years, and he’s fourteen years older than I am, so I got to be raised on his stories. So I probably had a better idea of what to expect than most. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. So how long did your training last?” Well all of it together was six months. Interviewer: “And then you get to the end of that six months then what happens?” (10:14) Get your orders! My entire class got sent to Vietnam. Don’t remember the correct number, probably a hundred-and-something, my class. Interviewer: “Okay. Now do they give you leave to go home first?” Yeah. Was it one month, I believe. Yeah. Interviewer: “Now had your wife come down to Texas while you were in training, or did she stay up in Minnesota?” Basic was, she stayed in Minnesota. AIT she came down, so we had a little apartment off-base. Interviewer: “Now were you able to live there, or just go there on weekends?” Weekends - you know, when I could sneak off. (laughter) Interviewer: “Yeah, I guess you have a little more freedom in AIT than you do when you’re in basic.” Little bit, yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and now alright – then did you go back to Minnesota before you went overseas or did you—” �Yes. Went back there and you know, just spent time with family and that kind of thing. Interviewer: “Alright, now at this point I mean how much did you know about Vietnam?” Just what was on the news. You know, didn’t really watch the news – I knew of it and you know, didn’t know what to expect at that time. Interviewer: “So when do you actually go to Vietnam?” It was before Christmas, so middle of December somewhere. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. And how do they get you to Vietnam?” I flew from Minneapolis to I believe it was Oakland, San Francisco area. There was a base there that we flew to, the – took to Hawaii and then Wake Island and then Vietnam. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get to get off the plane on those – when it stopped over?” No. On Wake Island we did, cause there was a fuel stop and it took time to refuel the jet. It was a regular commercial jet, United Airlines. Interviewer: “And what did Wake Island look like?” Well, when we landed we were wondering if there was any land there to land on, because we just could see the waves, we got closer and closer and just before touchdown there was some land, and yeah very small. So we walked around there, and I knew my history and what had happened there. Interviewer: “Well, you can’t really get lost there too easily.” You can’t get lost, nope. Interviewer: “Alright. So then back in the plane, where do you land in Vietnam?” (12:48) I can’t remember the exact name, it was next to Saigon. Interviewer: “Okay, well Tan Son Nhut is the big airport, and there’s bases that long been in Bien Hoa, and so you probably landed at one of those.” Yeah. Really didn’t know where I landed at the time. While we were there we were kind of corralled, you know, and into a – kind of a warehouse setting where we would receive our orders. And the friend I had made during basic training, he and I stuck together like twins. So we always stayed in the back, we didn’t hear everything that was going on and we wound up staying there for several weeks, avoiding things like you know, K.P. duty and all that stuff. (laughter) Interviewer: “Well did you have to sort of report for roll call in the morning and—” �Yes! And then we would, you know – always in the back, you know, always kind of go with the crowd and then we kinda, you know slip into a bunker ‘til everything was calmed down and… Interviewer: “So how were you gonna be notified of your assignment?” That was the problem. Finally we went and asked why we hadn’t received orders and well, we hadn’t heard the part where we’re supposed to turn in our records. Interviewer: “Oh!” So he and I, got sent to the 101st together. Interviewer: “Okay. So basically you were just allowed to kind of drift around on the base for several weeks, and this just—” We were almost like tourists. And without any money, you know, cause there was no pay if you don’t have a location. Interviewer: “But I guess you could still eat? Cause you’re not paying for your food, yeah.” Yeah, sure. There was a mess hall. Interviewer: “Alright, and nobody in particular noticed you?” No! Nobody cared. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. So now you finally do get assigned, you’re sent to the 101st, now once you are assigned do they just send you right up to where they’re operating?” You bet, it was a quick trip. Interviewer: “Okay. And how did you get up there?” We flew in a C-130. Yeah, very noisy plane. Interviewer: “Yeah well it’s a cargo plane.” It was a cargo plane, there was canvas seats that had been folded down from the outer wall and we’d sit on those. Interviewer: “While you were at the base outside of Saigon, did it ever get mortared or rocketed or was it quiet?” There were occasional – they’d try and hit the airfield, to blow holes in the tarmac – which was corrugated steel. Interviewer: “But was that some distance away from where you were?” I thought so. �Interviewer: “So it didn’t bother you too much that that was happening?” No, it’s kind of along the perimeter and yeah, it’s… yeah. And we were in a bunker when that started happening. (15:59) Interviewer: “Alright, now you go up – when you are assigned to the 101st airborne, do you know what unit in the division you’re gonna go to, or is that still up in the air?” No. Interviewer: “Okay. Now what part – I guess for people that don’t know anything about Vietnam, what part of the country were you operating in?” We were probably thirty miles north of Hue, the old capital. Interviewer: “Okay, so kind of the northern end of South Vietnam? But still south of the DMZ by some ways.” Yep. Interviewer: “Do you know what base you landed at initially? Camp Eagle, or did you go to Evans, or?” I think it was Camp Eagle. Interviewer: “Yeah probably, cause there’s a big airfield—” Cause it was a bigger base, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. So you land there, and you get there and you don’t know what your assignment is yet. What do they do with you once you arrive?” There were a few days of in-country orientation. Interviewer: “So what did that consist of?” Boy, you’re really digging in the cobwebs here, huh… just what and what not to do. You know, don’t go the villages, stay away from the local ladies, you know that kind of thing. Interviewer: “Okay. Did they take you out on like a little patrol or something like that? Or have you stand bunker guard?” No, we stayed pretty much on base. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. So it was just a welcome to Vietnam orientation. And then from there now do they give you your assignment?” Yes. �Interviewer: “Okay. So what unit were you assigned to?” (17:37) 2nd 319, Artillery. And out of Camp Evans. Interviewer: “Okay, so 2nd Battalion, 319th Artillery, and which battery were you in?” I was in headquarters battery. But I bounced around with the other ones, depending on needs. Interviewer: “Alright. And of course, you’re there as a medic?” Correct. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you joined the unit, what kind of reception do you get, what happens with you?” Um, I was assigned to a doctor. And I pretty much stayed with him by his side for nine months, that’s where I learned a lot. Hardly ever left Camp Evans. You know, [I] was introduced to medics that had been there for ten months and they’d tell their stories and I’d sit and listen, you know, taking it all in. So my duties are pretty much: I ran the pharmacy, I did sick call, with the doctor we would – at that time they were holding MEDCAPS, that’s where we’d go out into the villages around Camp Evans and hold clinics, I guess you’d call it. And I would screen the Vietnamese that were there, as to their needs, and they were the ones that got to see the doctor or I’d take care of them if I could. Interviewer: “Alright, so you got up there – so you’re with the MEDCAPS for instance, okay so would you go out into the villages or do you..?” No we went out into the villages, me, Doc, and one guy for security. So, you know, we wouldn’t go real far out, I guess the longest we’d be is maybe an hour drive in a jeep. Interviewer: “Alright, and what kind impression – what did the place look like if you’re driving out there in Vietnam outside of the base, what were you seeing?” In the villages it’s… [a] shantytown. I mean everything was just kind of… put together halfassed, you know it’s just… open markets, smelly, and then the nicer villages had built us kind of a – well it had a roof. You know, so you were out of the sun. And you would have the cross for… you know, that was their hospital basically cause there was none there. So we treated anybody that came. Interviewer: “And what kinds of ailments or things were you seeing—” Lot of it was rashes, there were some injuries from, you know, shrapnel, those needed to be cleaned and I usually got that kind of job. And Doc would get the serious stuff, coughing, you’d go see Doc – I didn’t do coughs. (laughter) Interviewer: “And the people, were they mostly old people, women and children?” (21:33) �A mix. Interviewer: “Okay. I’d probably do thirty immunization shots for the kids, you know, twenty to forty in each village. We’d probably see around thirty adults, adults would be you know, teenagers and up. Interviewer: “Now how did the Vietnamese sort of treat you or behave toward you when you’re doing this?” Respectful. We didn’t know if they were you know, on the right side or not cause there was no identification so you know, we could’ve been treating the enemy for all I know. I know in some of the villages when we’d – we’d usually leave Camp Evans about ten in the morning, and after sick call. And we’d get to the villages, they’d have their nighttime kills displayed on the outskirts of town. You know, kind of where you’d put the sign of the name of the village in the States, they’d have their dead displayed. Some were in full rigor. Interviewer: “Okay, so the rigor mortis – stiff, yeah? So these were sort of the Viet Cong they had killed the night before?” Supposedly, yeah. Interviewer: “So you know you’re in a war zone.” Yeah it’s… yeah. Interviewer: “Did you ever have any problems when you were out doing those MEDCAPS?” No. There was never any, for me anyway, any – I didn’t feel threatened, and yet we were very cautious. Interviewer: “Okay, so that’s one piece of that job, alright. Now what was daily life like on the base?” (23:36) Routines. You know, same thing, same place, everyday. There was none of the, you know formation stuff you got back in the States. I don’t know, I felt as though I had won a prize getting’ to be stuck with Doc cause you know, we actually had a permanent spot. Interviewer: “Now did the base – I mean, did the base get attacked at all?” We’d get a few rounds every now and then, more of a harassment, so you know, I basically spent most of my time in… it wasn’t really a bunker, and yet it was several layers of sand on corrugated steel for our roof. And then we had ammo boxes filled full of sand for the walls, and then between the two would be a little screen and some canvas we could roll up and down. Interviewer: “And so how many men would sleep in a place like that?” �Never really counted ‘em! The only time I really had any interaction with other men is if they needed help, other than that I pretty much stayed available. Interviewer: “So there wasn’t a team of medics there together?” No, generally there were two. As they came in, or were going back home, they’d come in and they’d spend a few weeks and we’d either say goodbye or orient new guys. Interviewer: “And were there different shifts, so that there was always a medic on duty or were you just kind of it?” It was me, me and Doc twenty-four seven. Interviewer: “Alright, and you were really just treating the people who were serving on the base?” Yes. Like if they went out [on] R&R I’d have to make sure shots were up to date, nonemergency issues were dealt with at the aid station, so they’d fly in on their own rather than us going out to the base. Interviewer: “Okay, so if you’re dealing with men from the different batteries in the battalion, that would be when they would come back to Camp Evans?” They would come when they needed help. You know, something that the medics out in the field couldn’t fix they’d come in to the aid station. Interviewer: “And would this normally be illnesses or non-combat injuries that you’re treating?” Correct. Interviewer: “Cause I guess there’s a whole separate process for the ones who get wounded badly.” Yeah, usually they’re dealt with by the medics and then they’re helicoptered to you know, medevac into the – wherever they need to go. Interviewer: “Yeah, they go to the hospitals and those kinds of things. So you’re, to a certain extent, insulated from some parts of the war so you’re a part of—” (26:37) Yeah well, one of the – don’t remember the name of it – anyway, the casualties would come in, they’d drop ‘em at the.. I wouldn’t call it a hospital, but they did surgery there. Emergency surgery, so yeah they were constantly flying in and out. And I’d go over there and talk with the guys every now and then, so we knew who belonged where. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you or the doctor ever sort of help out if a lot of casualties came in at once?” No, we pretty much stayed available for our guys. �Interviewer: “Alright, so to what extent did you pay attention to what was going on in terms of where the batteries where and what they were doing?” Well once or twice a month I would visit each battery and make sure that the supplies were, you know, were adequate for their needs. You know, stuff like that. Interviewer: “So would you fly out to the firebases then?” Yeah, in a helicopter. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember which firebases you went to?” Did I know? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, which ones – where did you go?” I went to all of them! In rotation, depending, you know – I’ve been on Ripcord before the final days, so… Interviewer: “Were you on – did you go to Ripcord at all in July of 1970 when the siege was going on, or had you been out there just earlier than that?” I had been out at least once a month, from when they – the 2nd 319 took over. They were only one of two batteries on the hill. Interviewer: “Right. And that battery was the one that got blown up on July the eighteenth, when the Chinook crashed there.” Yeah. I don’t remember exactly where I was, somewhere around the aid station, I wasn’t – I don’t think I was in the aid station, I was in the housing bunker, you know. Interviewer: “Were you on Ripcord when that happened, or?” Oh yeah. I was right there. I was probably within twenty-five, thirty yards. Interviewer: “Okay, so what do you recall from that day? You said you were in the housing bunker, so you were just…” (29:15) Well I knew where it had landed and I thought, ‘oh boy, this isn’t good.’ So ‘course right away they hollered ‘Doc!’ you know, so I go running over there and there’s already one running away and I took him into my bunker and was treating him and pretty soon another guy dove into my bunker, and then there was another one, and another one. And stuff started cooking off, so it seemed like a half hour or more but I’m sure it was just minutes, cause it doesn’t take long to cook off that stuff. The last guy that dove in was covered in blood, and I had a can of coke, and �actually he was the door gunner of the, of that Chinook that got shot down. And he had jumped out and slid down a hill, you know, he got all kinds of – that was our dump, you know, we’d walk it to the side and just throw it over the hill, so he was cut up from all the debris. And he’s in the book, and I had issues with his recall. And so I was on a mission on the first Ripcord reunion I went to, he wasn’t there. So the second one I landed on him. (laughter) Interviewer: “Alright, so did he just tell a story differently there?” Well yeah, you know everybody views things differently, and what had happened is we could see the rounds, from the ammo dump flying by the opening in our bunker and I thought, ‘boy, we’re in a bad spot,’ so didn’t take us too long to – we have to leave. So, and none of the other guys knew where the headquarters was and I says ‘I know where it’s at, follow me and we’re not stopping for nothing,’ and we’re going as fast as we can. And the guy that was the door gunner from the Chinook was last out the door, and he didn’t get any more than out the door maybe five feet, and boom – he gets blown into the concertina wire. Well I’m already you know, at least a fourth of the way to the headquarters bunker, and I turn around and look, and he’s pulling himself out of the concertina wire, he got cut up kinda bad, but he’s okay – scratches. And he recalled that I had left him there – and that wasn’t the case. Interviewer: “Did you go back and check on him, or did you just look and see how he was doing?” He was free from the wire, and he could run, and we were on our way in. So that whole thing took you know, five seconds maybe, but it’s a memory that’s burned into my head. Interviewer: “Sure. So basically helicopter crashes, and it’s carrying a load of ammunition – kind of lands on the ammunition—” Lands on our ammo dump, yeah. Interviewer: “And then the ammunition is kind of right near where the gun positions are, and so then the ammo blows up?” Well yeah, the ammo blew up and a lot of rounds landed in the … where the … were, you know. Interviewer: “So you heard the initial crash, and then did you look out to see what was happening, or just hunker down and?” There was no hunkering, there was – heard the crash, and ‘Doc!’ and away I went. Interviewer: “Okay, that’s right, they call – and that’s a standard thing they train you as a medic right, somebody calls for Doc, you go. So you’re going out, rather than back in. Okay, so once you get your group now back, did you get taken to the talk, or did you [get] taken to bunkers in that area—” Stayed and talked. And I went out when needed. That’s where I first met Doc Harris, we had a surgeon on Ripcord which was very rare. And we went on a casualty, and I thought we kinda quit working on him too soon, and he seemed, ‘well, there’s nothing more we can do,’ and he passed. Never saw him again, ‘til a reunion. (34:12) �Interviewer: “Alright, now did you leave Ripcord that day or did you stay on it?” Nope, stayed that rest of that day and it was afternoon when I went down. And the stuff was cooking off, CS gas, in my haste I’d left my gas mask so we just you know, hunkered down. Interviewer: “So did you stay overnight there, or did you..?” Okay, yeah… stayed overnight, stuff cooked off for quite a while, including the – you know, where the guns were. And I’m thinking to myself, ‘we got nothing to protect ourselves with.’ That was our ace in the hole, so just kind of – all night kind of waiting for the end. Interviewer: “Now were you able to fly off the next day?” Yes. I was the last one off of 319, along with the company commander and a couple of other guys, I don’t remember who they were. But I was stuck next to the used to be Captain Rich and he was replaced by someone I can’t remember. Interviewer: “Mhm. Right, cause Rich had been wounded at some point.” Yeah, he got wounded all the time - he got something like six or seven purple hearts. Interviewer: “Alright, okay. So then, you’re flying off – when you flew off, was the enemy shooting mortars at you at that time?” Yeah, they were trying to hit the pad where we were getting on and off, so… I was never so glad to leave any place in my life. Interviewer: “Okay. And then were back at Evans then, when the actual evacuation [of the base] took place?” Yes. We flew back and I remember it like a cow tank, you know, they’re kinda rectangle? And it was full of ice and beer when we got back. You know, sort of, ‘here you survived, here’s a treat.’ Interviewer: “That’s of course – so the battery personnel—” That’s at Camp Evans. Interviewer: “Yeah, and that’s sort of for your battery—” For our battery. Interviewer: “—they come back. And then a few days later the whole base gets abandoned.” The next day. You’d have to ask someone else who was there at that time. I think the engineers were there and they had bulldozers, you know, finished off what was left and— Interviewer: “I’m not sure they did that, the sequences seems to be they evacuated everybody on the 23rd of July and they bombed the place.” �Yes. To smithereens. Interviewer: “From where you were did you observe anything of the whole process, all the helicopters coming and going to evacuate the base, or did it seem like business as usual then?” (37:38) It was business as usual. Helicopters would be flying in and out of the camp hospital. Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s happening all the time anyway.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. And then after that as far as you could tell did things quiet down, or did your job just stay the same?” My job stayed the same. Back to normal. Interviewer: “Okay. How much communication did you have with people back home while you were out there?” None. I called my wife twice, through the hand radio. Interviewer: “Okay so explain how that works, if you wanna call home and you’re in Vietnam?” Yeah, well you have to call home when it’s daytime there so that means it’s nighttime in ‘nam, so about two or three in the morning, you know, I’d get on the phone and wait for the ham operator to get the connections and then it was … over, so it was inconvenient. Interviewer: “Okay, well did you write back and forth a lot?” Yeah, some. Mostly, ‘I’m still here.’ Didn’t give any details, ever. The only thing I ever said about Ripcord is, ‘I got a good story for you when I get back.’ That’s all I mentioned. Interviewer: “Okay, now were you able to take an R&R while you were there?” Yes, but it was before Ripcord. I met my wife in Hawaii for our second anniversary, so we spent the week together. Interviewer: “Alright, and what was it like having to turn around, go back to Vietnam?” Not good. I’d already been on Ripcord, so I knew what was going on. Interviewer: “Yeah, you just gotta do it.” Pretty quiet ride, going back. Interviewer: “Alright, okay – now did you work with the same doctor the whole time or did he—” �First nine months. Total respect for him. Replaced by another doctor, who thought he could walk on water, and we didn’t get along very well. So the last three months were not as nice. I don’t remember his name. Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean – what kinds of things would he do that were…” Oh he had it on… you know, menial things for me to do. You know, just trying to keep me busy rather than doing nothing, just busy, nothing. Interviewer: “Alright. Now did he go out on the MEDCAPS too?” (40:18) No, he did not. Just me and the original doc. Interviewer: “Alright, now did the MEDCAPS continue after the first doctor left?” They did. Interviewer: “Okay – but the doctor didn’t go on them?” No. Interviewer: “So were you still going out yourself, or were other guys doing it?” No, it stopped. Everything changed. You know, new boss. Interviewer: “Alright. Now did you go into any of the larger cities or towns in Vietnam, did you get into Da Nang or any place like that, or did you just stay at Camp Evans?” No, I got into Da Nang but that was usually when I flew somewhere else, got to see my wife in Hawaii and fortunately I got to do another leave and I went to Hong Kong with one of the medics from B battery. Interviewer: “What was Hong Kong like?” A relief. Lots of bars, so just exploring the town. We booked a train thing up to the mountain and you know, touristy stuff. Interviewer: “Yeah. But some place where no one wants to shoot at you.” Correct – well, it was a week. We stayed a week yeah, so a week with nobody shooting at you was good. Interviewer: “Alright. As you’re thinking over the time that you spent in Vietnam, are there other memories or events or impressions that kinda stay with you that you haven’t really talked about yet?” We’ll leave ‘em buried. �Interviewer: “Okay. That’s entirely up to you. So now as you were getting toward the end of your tour, [were] you counting down the days for – keeping a calendar or anything like that?” No, it’s in my head, you know. Two digit midget, one digit midget, that sort of thing – countdown. I never got to one digit midget. I got two weeks early out, and I took it. They dangled an E6 in front of me, and I went before the board to get an extra rank and I would’ve had to extend… nope, I’m out of here. Interviewer: “Okay. So basically they were offering you a promotion if you stayed longer.” If I stay, yeah. (laughter) Interviewer: “So you’re gone. Now how do you get back to the states?” (43:06) Flights. We’d go to Japan and then to Seattle, on you know, a regular airline again. Interviewer: “Now where did you fly out of Vietnam from?” I believe it was Da Nang. Don’t know for sure, but one of the bigger airbases. Interviewer: “Okay, and when you get on the plane and it takes off is there a point when everybody cheers, or was it quiet?” It was quiet until we felt secure from getting shot down, yeah. And then we pretty much collectively gave the nation the finger. (laughter) Interviewer: “Okay, and so you go to Japan, and then from Japan…” To Seattle. Interviewer: “Alright, and what do they do with you once you get to Seattle?” We were issued new clothing, and I believe we were issued orders of where we were to go. And then we had another leave, I know we had time to get to that destination. I have one thing that my wife reminded me of this morning – you make friends on the plane. You know, similar experiences. So we decided to go out to eat together, don’t remember if it was breakfast or dinner, supper, but we went out to eat. And we were sitting there and the waitress was taking our order, and all the sudden what seems to be the manager comes over to our table – he says, ‘Gentlemen, we’re gonna have to ask you to leave – we don’t serve your kind here.’ That was my welcome home. Interviewer: “Wow.” We were in uniform, cause you had to wear your uniform to get your flight, and so yeah. Interviewer: “Welcome back to the United States. Okay – now at the airport, were there any problems – did you have troubles in the airports or was it just this guy?” �We weren’t there that long. It was like you get off the bus, you go to the terminal, and you wait and off you go. Interviewer: “Okay, but you didn’t see any protestors when you got there?” No – just the manager of the restaurant. Left a foul taste of Seattle in my mouth. Interviewer: “Alright, and then you go back home to Minnesota at that point, and then…” They weren’t all that way. I sat next to a lady that, we had a little talk and before we landed she asked if I had a ride to where I wanted to go, I said no, and she says, ‘well, I’d like to take you.’ So there were good people. Interviewer: “Good happens too. Okay, and now what is your next assignment? Cause you’ve still got some months left on your enlistment.” I tried to stay in Minneapolis cause they actually had need for a medic, but no, … Fort Sam. So we go down there and there’s medics crawling out of the woodwork, and I get initially stuck on a warehouse with two other, or three other medics and we comped gas masks once a month. Rest of the time we played cards. Interviewer: “Wow – how long did that last?” Three months. And the last three months I transferred out of that bunch and got into a group of guys that, once a day we would give a film – whatever they were learning that day, to new recruits. And occasionally we would have hands-on stuff. These were, I think they were Green Beret guys, I don’t really recall. They were not medics, but they learned our craft. And we would have goats and we’d put ‘em under sedation and we’d shoot em, and then they would practice you know, trying to keep em alive – keep it alive. And then at the end of their training, we would dispose of them. And for that we’d get the rest of the day off. ‘Course we were held to secrecy like everything else. (47:25) Interviewer: “What impression did you have of these guys that you were training?” They’re guys just like me. They got a better education than I got. You know, they were better prepared. Interviewer: “Cause I guess all of the special forces types had to have medic training cause they wouldn’t have any—” They worked in smaller groups, to my knowledge at that time. Yeah, the training that we had was wholly inadequate for what we actually experienced. Interviewer: “So there wasn’t really enough in terms of – cause you weren’t mostly treating combat casualties.” No. �Interviewer: “But—” On Ripcord I was. Interviewer: “Yes. Now for the rest, so your regular duties at Camp Evans was your training adequate or were you still a little—” It was adequate for that. But I was by a doctor, so I learned a lot from him. And we did have some casualties at Camp Evans you know, on the occasional mortar that we’d get. Interviewer: “Yeah. And did you have to learn things about tropical diseases and so forth once you were there?” Oh yeah, yeah. So I got to know what kind of creams and ointments and pills and – never was very good with the names but I could identify the.. by sight. Interviewer: “So when do you actually get out of the Army?” June of ’71. I’m in a hurry to leave. (laughter) Didn’t get my medals, barely got a uniform, you know dress screens I think I left with – I still got the coat, and they finally let me go and I was officially gone. I drove nonstop home, from Texas to Minneapolis. Interviewer: “Alright, so your wife didn’t come down while you were—” She was with me for the last six months, yeah. We rented an apartment which took half my – you know, we didn’t make that much. My whatever they call it, pay stub or… that’s all fuzzy stuff you know, it’s— Interviewer: “Now did she have a job while you were down there?” She did, yup. Interviewer: “And did you have any kids yet, or did that come later?” Nope, no kids. We waited quite a while, I had to kind of – for lack of a better word, stabilize. Interviewer: “Yeah, what’s the readjustment process like, just being back in the States and civilian life?” (50:12) Cold. I’ll give some instances – I was embraced by my father-in-law when I left. So I was expecting that same embrace coming back. Never got it – it’s almost like I had a disease. Trying to find employment was interesting. I don’t know, after about a dozen applications I finally realized that I should not put down my time in service, that I was a Vietnam veteran. Then I got a job. So that was interesting. Interviewer: “Did you have any of the kind of PTSD reflexes about things or was that not a problem for you?” �I was a bit skittish, yeah. Still I’m somewhat heightened by surroundings, and little things get my attention quickly. Still don’t like getting in corners. Interviewer: “Now what kind of work did you go into?” Well actually I took the first job I could get which was sweeping floors in a cabinet shop. They couldn’t keep me busy, so I went to the bench. And pretty soon I was on my own, then I entered an apprenticeship program and three years [later] I was a journeyman and I’d had enough of being cooped up in a room. So I went to management, didn’t like that, and I started my own shop and stayed with that for almost twenty years. Interviewer: “Alright, now as you look back at your time in the service, how do you think that affected you or what did you take out of it, positive or negative?” Attention to detail – which was important in work. Didn’t really talk about it for twenty years, I mean it just didn’t happen. So didn’t start talking about it ‘til I was installing a set of cabinets for a customer, and at the tail end he says, ‘you’re a Vietnam veteran, aren’t you?’ Yes I am – and so was he. And we talked for two days, and that was when I started to begin my journey out of my secret life I held in my head. Interviewer: “Alright, well I appreciate your willingness to share this story now, that’s—” 2011, you wouldn’t have said ‘hi’ to me. I mean, I wouldn’t have said ‘hi’ to you – I would’ve denied this interview. Interviewer: “Okay, well, … keep coming back. Actually it does make for a good story and one that adds some more pieces to the puzzle, and gives a view – one kind of set of duties people had in Vietnam, so thank you for taking the time to share it.” Ripcord was only, you know, ten days of my life. But it was a game-changer. Interviewer: “Yeah, alright. That should be a wrap.” [END] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NelsonB2321V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nelson, Bruce Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07 Title A name given to the resource Nelson, Bruce (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Bruce Nelson was born in Wabasha, Minnesota, in 1949, and graduated high school in 1967. After he graduated, Nelson briefly attended a trade school to become an auto mechanic, but could no longer afford it, so he went to work in a metal foundry. Without a student deferment, he was drafted in June of 1969. He identified himself as a conscientious objector in his Army paperwork and was then sent to Fort Sam Houston, Texas for field medic training. In December of 1969, he was flown into Vietnam near Saigon where he drifted around the base for a while until he was assigned to accompany the 2nd Battalion, 319th Artillery, Headquarters Battery of the 101st Airborne Division operating just north of Hue at Camp Eagle. His duties included running the base’s pharmacy, working as a doctor’s assistant, and helping screen Vietnamese civilians who wanted access to local American Medical Civilian Action Programs (MEDCAP). He also made routine flights out to all the major forward fire bases to deliver supplies via helicopter to the troops. He was at Fire Support Base Ripcord in July of 1970 when a supply helicopter was shot down and crashed into the base’s ammunition depot only a short distance from the bunker he was operating in. After the crash, and exacerbated by diminishing ammunition, Nelson and the men at Ripcord felt as though the end was near for them. So, they hunkered down to survive the chaos before being evacuated the next day. After nine months, he was assigned to a different doctor to assist for three months. Towards the end of his deployment, Nelson declined the Army’s offer of promotion if he was to extend his service and was soon flown back to Seattle, Washington. For the remainder of his service, Nelson remained at Fort Sam Houston, working sparse hours in a military warehouse and training recruits for the Special Forces. In June of 1971, he officially left the service and, in his rush to leave, did not collect his military medals or his full dress uniform. His status as a military veteran hindered his ability to acquire a job, but once he began neglecting his military service on job applications, he got a few small jobs before opening his own shop. Nelson believed the service taught him to develop a greater attention to detail while repressing his wartime experiences to the outside, civilian world. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf18dc26efcad9fb3f821b2d48967ac3.mp4 6634ce8a80faa3a1ddbcf0ecb2404092 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b8b0bdcaa2db20c1144ec9ad6e2ec05.pdf 385f19eb59bb3bfb2536f0cb470b2fc9 PDF Text Text Mitchell, David Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: David Mitchell Length of Interview: (59:32) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with David Mitchell of Show Low, Arizona the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay start us off with some background on yourself.” I was born in a small town, basically a farming community Auburn, Indiana. The industry we had there was all centered around the automotive industry out of Michigan for the most part. Interviewer: “What year were you born?” (00:27) 1949. Interviewer: “Okay and then did you grow up there?” I grew up there, graduated from high school. Interviewer: “What year did you graduate?” 1967, ventured off to Purdue University, after the first semester of my sophomore year they felt that I was probably the smartest person in the world and I didn’t need to come back. So in other words I pretty much blew it off, but I wasn’t ready for college. I didn't know that, but I wasn’t. Interviewer: “Now why had you gone to college to begin with?” �Mitchell, David That was primarily my mom and dad’s wish because neither one of them actually had an opportunity to go to college, even though my father should’ve he was a brilliant man but– Interviewer: “What kind of work had your father done?” He was a journeyman electrician. Interviewer: “Alright, now so when do you actually– When do you get drafted then?” April 3rd, 1969. Interviewer: “Okay, at that point I mean how much did you know about Vietnam and all that?” Some, not a lot but the interesting thing is my father was inducted into the Army April 3rd, 1942, same day. (1:49) It was an ongoing thing Vietnam but remember I was born and raised in a small town Indiana, right Fort Wayne was the biggest city within any distance. There were almost– You know there were no racial issues to speak of at the time 1969. When I went to college it was my first induction– Introduction to the fact that some kids hated their parents, right? I never heard that before, you kidding me? Not in Auburn, didn’t happen, so– But after my stellar performance at Purdue I pretty much figured out what the inevitability was going to be in the near future, so yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, so and now I guess while you were at Purdue did you– Was there a kind of counter culture on campus there, did you have hippies or things like that that you noticed?” No, Purdue was an overgrown Auburn you know it was a farming– Primarily an agriculture school right and the only thing they cared about was soybeans and corn and wheat, and they had some other good programs. Engineering is what I started in and they had a wonderful engineering program I just didn’t excel at it enough. �Mitchell, David Interviewer: “Okay, so we’re now– We’ve made it now to April of ‘69, now you’re reporting for basic training so where do you go?” I left Auburn at like four o’clock in the morning, took a bus to Indianapolis, from there we were assigned whatever we were gonna do. Some of them went to the marines, it was a scary thing for them poor boys but– And I ended up in Fort Knox. Interviewer: “Did you notice how it was determined who went to the Marines?” I think I’ve got a pretty good idea, they never said specifically but I think a lot of it had to do with criminal records, speeding violations, drug and alcohol problems– [Shuffling] Interviewer: “Make sure you pass in front of the camera. Okay, alright so basically it wasn’t a system like every third guy goes to the Marines or anything like that there were just certain lucky people.” (4:13) They might like to think that’s what they thought it was but that’s not what it was. Interviewer: “Okay, so where did you go for basic training?” Fort Knox, Kentucky. Interviewer: “Okay, what kind of reception did you get when you showed up there?” It was typical like everything else, I can remember we didn’t get there till late in the evening right and so they fed us and you know we had our first police call and basically the drill sergeant said “Boys here’s the first lesson you gotta learn, if God didn’t put it there it’s got to go.” I mean you police the barrack area right, cigarette butts, paper, it didn’t matter what it was and then we �Mitchell, David were issued our fatigues and boots and you know Army only has two sizes, too big and too small. Interviewer: “Alright, and then how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to Army life?” It was pretty easy for me from the standpoint that I grew up working right, I mean I worked a lot on the farm. So you get up at dawn, you go to bed at dark and in between it was whatever, probably the thumb on discipline was probably the hardest thing for me to get used to. I was not used to that, I pretty much was given a lot of freedom and flexibility when I was growing up. Interviewer: “Alright, now were there other guys who were training alongside you who were having trouble?” A lot of them. Interviewer: “What kinds of things?” (5:50) They were– One thing they came from broken families, some of them, they didn’t know how to work, they were overweight, they didn’t want to exercise, they had a bad attitude right. I mean I went into it with the outlook of this, you know it’s inevitable this is going to happen so you might as well make the best of it. You screwed up college so you got another chance to do something in your life that isn’t a blooming failure. So that’s what I did you know I tried, I tried to do the best I could I maxed my PT test you know. Interviewer: “Alright and then what impression did you have of your drill instructors?” I hated them right until I got into my first firefight in Vietnam. Interviewer: “So what was it that– What did you recognize once you had that first firefight, what was it that they had done for you?” �Mitchell, David They made you be aware of what you were going to face and experience and how to deal with it. The hardest part about– And I was talking with Bob or somebody last night, you know anyone who was in Vietnam in a firefight or in Vietnam in the infantry who professed not to be scared, they’re not telling the truth. Now the fear– As soon as you started the firefight the fear went away right and then when it was over you gradually moved back into that “Well here we go again.” Right but when you’re in the middle of a firefight you just, you do what you gotta do, you know and there was a saying that was in the 101st at least in my unit and probably yours too. When somebody got killed, okay this is one of the hard things to learn, when somebody in your unit was killed on a firefight they went from an asset to a liability okay and there was a phrase that was coined, or at least was there when I was there, that said “Don’t mean nothing, drive on.” And it took people a long time to understand what that really meant and that is a lot of where survivor’s remorse comes in because you used to have to step over dead guys, your brothers, to go finish the mission and you always had it in the back of your mind that “We’ll come back and take care of you, we’ll come back and get you but right now we don’t got time.” Interviewer: “Alright, let’s roll back now so you get through your basic training.” (8:35) Yeah. Interviewer: “And how long was that?” Eight weeks I think. Interviewer: “Okay, what’s your next stop?” Fort Polk, Louisiana AIT. Interviewer: “Alright, the Advanced Individual Training and describe what that program was like.” �Mitchell, David It was hot, it was sweaty, it was July and it was just a step above what basic training was. Basic training was basically a fitness training program with, you know, some tactics thrown in here and there, AIT was a little more advanced. They assumed that you lost the weight you were gonna lose and developed the muscle you were gonna get and so it was more of a tactical process if you will. Interviewer: “So how were you spending your time?” Working in the field, we did a lot of physical therapy. Interviewer: “Or training?” I mean physical training, well physical therapy too but we spent a lot of time on the rifle range, we spent a lot of time going through basically map skills and understanding what we had available to us as an infantry soldier in the field. What, you know what we had, do we have machine guns, we had aircraft, we had jets, we had you know pistols, we had bayonets. Thank God we never had to use those, except to kill the spider and so it was just a continuation on with that. Interviewer: “Okay and how much of it was geared for Vietnam?” (10:15) Every bit of it was geared to it, the problem at the time I went through it a lot of the tactics were World War II tactics and they weren’t really jungle warfare type stuff. Interviewer: “What would be the difference between those?” Basic– One of the basic differences was we never– Unless you were going to cordon off an area you never got online and attacked in Vietnam we walked single fire, much separation, point man, slack man, rear guard. So it’s not like we were fighting in the trenches in Germany or storming the beaches in, you know, in France or wherever they were. It was you had to figure out how to tactically move in the jungle environment and that’s what when I went to NCO school I learned. �Mitchell, David Interviewer: “Okay, how was it that you wound up going to NCO school?” I volunteered. Interviewer: “Okay, and how does that work within the Army, they want people and what– Do they put out a call or?” They ask for basically anybody who was interested and then they, I think I’m gonna guess, I think they do a review of your performance because in every aspect of the military there’s always a performance rating that goes along with it. Sometimes you know what it is, sometimes you don’t. Interviewer: “Okay now was this at Fort Polk where they did that?” No, Fort Benning. Interviewer: “No but I mean in terms of when they were–” (11:55) Oh yes it was right at the end of AIT. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and so what motivated you to sign up for that?” I’ll be quite honest with you, the more I could learn, the better information I could have, the better I was gonna have a chance of coming home from Vietnam and that was basically the motivation. Interviewer: “Alright, so now Fort Benning now becomes your next stop and describe a little bit what the NCO school was like.” �Mitchell, David It was a graduate program in– For us, in leadership skills, tactics because that’s what we were being trained for, basically front line supervision right, and so it was just– It was a compounding of what you had learned in AIT with a new more advanced aspect of the training and I found it was more designed around Vietnam because all of the instructors had been there at least once if not twice, sometimes three times. Interviewer: “And so now you were learning to operate differently rather than line up and charge.” Yeah, I mean you still had the fun opportunity of crawling through mud and barbed wire and all that stuff but that’s just part of what we– What you still probably do, I don’t know. Interviewer: “Alright, and how long did you spend there?” I think it was eight or ten weeks. Interviewer: “Okay, and now once you complete that do they give you any additional work before they send you to Vietnam?” (13:40) Yeah then we went to– I went back to Fort Polk as a training sergeant in a basic training unit– Or an AIT unit in that case. Interviewer: “Okay, and what were your duties?” We were basically, we called them barrack sergeants, you know you were responsible for everybody in that barrack. To make sure they were up, trained, you know disciplined properly, physical train properly, and then you would lead them in a lot of the exercises that you would do. So that’s where we developed the hands-on leadership skills that you don’t always get by doing it in a group. �Mitchell, David Interviewer: “Alright, so here you’re actually giving orders to other people in order to make them behave.” Oh yeah, you have to I mean it’s part of the discipline program. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you had gone through basic and AIT yourself, had you noticed those guys? The new sergeants do they kind of stand out from the other ones?” I didn’t see any of them until AIT, in basic training everybody that– Our drill sergeants were all– Interviewer: “Veterans.” They’re veterans, been in Vietnam and they only had one mission in mind and that was to try to get you in a position where you can come home. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so now you’ve gone through all of this stuff, so by the time you finish– How long was the stint then at Fort Polk as a trainer, how long did you stay there?” (15:22) Eight weeks. Interviewer: “Okay so it’s another eight weeks so basically you work with one group–” One rotation, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and now do they give you time off before going to Vietnam?” Yeah I was off 30 day leave I believe. Interviewer: “Okay, and then where do you leave the states from?” �Mitchell, David Fort Lewis, Washington. Interviewer: “Okay, and at this point did you have orders for a particular unit or you’re just going to be a replacement?” We went to a replacement company in Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: “Alright, now how did they get you to Vietnam?” On a Flying Tiger airline. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember where they stopped?” Stopped in Anchorage, Alaska and Yokota Air Force Base in Japan. Interviewer: “Okay, did you get off the plane in Alaska?” (16:05) Yeah, they were refueling, I got off, it was pretty brief I mean we didn’t have a whole lot of time to go to the bar and drink or anything so, but yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you go there and Cam Ranh Bay you said is where you landed?” Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: “Okay, did you come in during the day or night?” During the day. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your first impression?” �Mitchell, David David what in the hell are you doing here? It was hot and it was just like stepping off the plane in Fort Polk in July, you know it’s a stark realization that, and I think Bob had mentioned it, this is if you can’t get back on the plane they ain’t taking you home today right. So that was basically it, I mean you had an inkling about what it might be about, you didn’t really know. Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you spend in Cam Ranh Bay?” Oh we were probably there three days, two or three days before we were given our assignment and then we were sent up north. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember anything about how you spent your time in those couple of days there?” I don’t really. Interviewer: “Okay, but do you think– They didn’t give you bunker duty or anything like that?” (17:20) No, they didn’t give us anything to do initially and we went up to Phu Bai in northern I Corps and we went through our in-country training search, is what they call it. Interviewer: “Okay, so 101st Airborne you get there so you got there for Screaming Eagles replacement training and for a newly minted sergeant, now what was that experience like did the training school there do you any good?” Not really, the best– The best training that I got in my entire career in the Army was the first week in the field with the sergeant that I was replacing, Jerry Bull. Interviewer: “Alright, so what unit do you join?” Delta company the 2nd 501st. �Mitchell, David Interviewer: “Alright, and where were they when you joined them?” They were just getting off a stand out so we were getting ready to deploy. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of reception do you get when you join them?” Like any other brand new cherry that comes into the country, you know it’s– You know the things where you know give it a week or so and you’ll stop pissing stateside water, and the only thing they didn’t tell me that you figure out pretty quick, you don’t wear underwear in Vietnam unless you want to live with ringworm. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you first join the unit do you get any responsibility or you’re just supposed to watch?” I just basically spent my time with the sergeant I was replacing. Yeah it was not like I didn’t do anything but it was basically at his direction and discretion what he asked me to do initially. Interviewer: “Okay, so now when you go out in the field do you fly out, walk out?” (19:13) We were airmobile, we flew in helicopters. Interviewer: “Okay, and so you first go out in the field with the unit– What do you remember about that first week?” I remember that the only mountains in Vietnam go up, they don’t go down, you climb to the top of one, they fly you to the bottom of another. On my birthday, April 8th, I got that ARCOM medal for valor and then on April– Interviewer: “How did that happen?” �Mitchell, David It was in a firefight that– We actually had gotten ambushed and we just– My squad was the one that was in– Walking point for the platoon and so we maneuvered and removed the threat, if you will, and then on April 15th I got my first purple heart and that was on a place that you’ve heard of before called [sound like re-uk-hill] cause we were Delta Company 2nd 501st was actually a swing battalion for the 101st Airborne. What that meant was wherever there was trouble someone in that unit would go, Delta Company happened to be selected as the swing company for the swing battalion, at least while I was there. So Bravo Company was on [re-uk-hill] and they were in a bit of a bind and so we went in to try to help them. Interviewer: “And so, what happened to you?” I got shot, well shrapnel actually. Interviewer: “Do you know what it was from, was it mortar or RPG?” It was an RPG. Interviewer: “Okay, and when you’re in one of these firefights do you see the enemy at all or just?” (21:07) Sometimes but not very often. Interviewer: “How long would these things last?” They could last anywhere from 30 seconds to 15 minutes basically, as Bob had explained earlier, trail watchers a lot of times they were there only to delay you right. So they’d fire a magazine or two and then they were gone because they knew what they Americans would do right. We would set up a defensive position, we’d fire, their whole intent was to hit somebody that way you had to stop, set up a perimeter, call in a medevac, whatever and they knew that’s what we’d do and so a lot of times it was we were moving into a position where they might have set up a camp, or a base camp, or a cache of ammunition, or whatever and so they wanted time to move all that stuff �Mitchell, David out of the way cause– Because they just sometimes knew and it was– It was interesting sometimes. Interviewer: “And how badly were you hurt?” Not really all that bad. Interviewer: “Did you stay in the field or go back?” Yeah, oh yeah, I still get shrapnel in my back from that, not big pieces but I still get it. Interviewer: “Alright, now did that get infected or did you have other problems with it?” No, it was good we had one of the best medics that you could ask for I mean he just didn’t let you ever not take care of things, jungle rot, Phisohex soap and gauze pads, scrub it out, he said “I don’t care if you cry, get rid of it.” Right, and salt tablets back in those days we took salt tablets and he made you take them every day. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you got into that first firefight that was happening for real did that– Is that sort of where the training kicked in where you–” (23:12) It became instinctive at that point based on the training basically, you know I mean one of the first things you realize is you don’t stand up and run towards the enemy in a firefight in the jungle, at least I didn’t. Interviewer: “Maybe the marines did.” Well it depended on what their IQ was but– Interviewer: “But it was not what you were doing.” �Mitchell, David No, that’s not what we were doing. Interviewer: “Okay, and now did your unit normally function as a platoon or company or what side–” Mostly as a platoon. Interviewer: “And about how many men were in the platoon?” Probably around 18 to 20, I mean that’s what was physically there, it’s not supposed to be that small you know it’s supposed to be more like 45 to 65 but attrition and lack of replacements just over time dwindled what was available for us. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you stay with the same unit the whole time you were in Vietnam?” I did, yes. (24:21) Interviewer: “Okay, and so how much turnover did you see when you first got there?” A lot, a lot. Being swing battalion and swing company we were in contact a lot, not necessarily Ripcord firefights and stuff but a lot. So you get a guy that gets wounded when he goes out you don’t know if he’s coming back or not right and there was just the repetitive turnover from people DEROSing and going home, I mean it’s just an evolutionary type thing that that’s what happened. Interviewer: “Yeah, now part of the logic of all that was supposed to be that you always have an experienced group of certain people in the field and then the old guys train the new guys, then you maintain your effectiveness, is that how it actually worked?” �Mitchell, David It was intended to work that way, a lot of the time it did– Some of the hardest things to instill in the new young kids, and I know you’ve heard this before from probably a lot– And I was not real I was only 21 but I’d been there for a while right. I had a lieutenant, Frank Bass, and his philosophy was this, well number one he was a hard stripe and promoted to lieutenant, in your rucksack if you couldn’t throw it, shoot it, or eat it, it didn’t go. No radios, no cameras even alright, yeah you can have an air mattress but I get it first, and he’d slit it. It made a great ground cloth but couldn’t hold any air in it right. No smoking at night, no zippo lighters at night, I mean it sounded like a Liberty Bell going off and I don’t care how well you cover up with a poncho lighter or something you can still see the glow, but aside from that, I mean walk down through this casino you can smell smoke a mile away, a mile away and it was just a dead giveaway. Interviewer: “Well would the N.V.A still smell you anyway?” Oh they do, we smell like sour milk, they smell like dead fish to us but you know there were different philosophies about how you set up a night defensive position and that’s one of the other things that we ended up teaching our guys and was taught to us, is we never dug in at night, never ever ever. (27:01) We would stop sometime in the three, four, five o’clock in the afternoon, change your socks, let your feet and boots dry out, change your T-shirt if you were lucky enough to have an extra one, eat right and then we’d send out a patrol to find our night defensive position and then at night right at dusk we would move into that position but we would have a predrill, where we had set up at say five o’clock, of where your positions were gonna be, who was gonna be where, how we were gonna cover what, who was gonna set out the mechanical ambushes, where we were gonna set them and so we’d move in at dark and I had a friend in 1st 501st Charlie Company, they dug in every night and I just could never figure out why you wanted to sit there and give away your position with shovels and– Interviewer: “So it was a noise issue?” It was a noise issue, and I have actually gone into areas where that was their philosophy was they wanted to dig in and if you do a perimeter walk after a firefight or something, you know what an aiming stake is right? An aiming stake is something the N.V.A will set up outside of a position �Mitchell, David where they know where it’s at. So right at predawn or wherever it is that’s where they would focus their fire on and they would use it for their mortars too. Interviewer: “Alright and so I guess kind of take us through– I mean there’s sort of several months there– Did you go in and out of the Ripcord area kind of April, May June, July?” We were– We were in that basic AO almost the entire time through July, we were around Firebase O'Reilly, Granite, Henderson and it was– Like our company commander would say when we would get together, he said “You guys don’t have to go find these guys, they know where you are.” They’ll find you, you don’t have to go find them and pretty much he was right but the thing that kept us alive, most of us– And the company commander was Captain Chris Stroud, was he said “We will always do the unexpected.” Right, we will only walk on trails when there’s no other way to do it, period and he was– It was his second tour he was with the 25th Infantry before so. Interviewer: “Alright, now elements of your battalion got into a couple fairly ugly fights and I believe it was Stroud’s company that wound up in a place called Hill 805.” (30:05) That’s where we were. Interviewer: “Okay, can you talk a little bit about that action?” Yeah I can, there were three basic hills that were strategic points around Ripcord, 902, 1000, and 805 they were just strategically placed with access to Ripcord, I think it was on April 12th– Interviewer: “Sounds right.” We were in the O’Reilly AO and they actually choppered out a hot meal to us in the field, only time I ever had one right, and we looked at each other and we said “This shit ain’t good.” Right, the next day we flew into an LZ below Hill 805 and our orders were to take 805 and fortify it and we were anticipating an extremely hard fight. We ran into no resistance, not one, not one bullet �Mitchell, David was fired until that night and then for basically from then until the 18th, we got hit every night, we got probed every day, we didn’t sleep for those five days or six days, I mean you just couldn’t. We were up all night pulling basically a 100% guard duty cause we’d get hit anywhere from ten at night to three in the morning right. Interviewer: “I guess in terms of the chronology April 12th that’s about when Ripcord was originally established so–” No, I'm sorry it was July. Interviewer: “Yeah July.” I’m sorry, July. Interviewer: “Yeah, right there we go, just making sure we have that.” (32:00) I’m sorry, yeah you’re right. Interviewer: “The 12th thing rang a bell, okay yeah so this is the same time when Ripcord was under siege–” It was. Interviewer: “Being bombarded, it’s the same time when some of the stuff is going on with Hill 1000–” 902, yeah. Interviewer: “And then I lost a little order but yours was kind of distinctive because it was how many days running did you stay up there?” �Mitchell, David Six. Interviewer: “Okay, and what– Do you happen to know why you were there that long?” I’ve got a suspicion that they had it, okay most of the time we take a hill and we leave it right, I mean that was just Vietnam, Hamburger Hill, the Ia Drang Valley, all of that stuff it was basically the same thing but for this time they took it, we occupied it, and it was an interdiction point to Ripcord cause it sat right there and looked right down the throat of it. Matter of fact half of the fire support we got from Ripcord, artillery, was basically point blank fire it was not high angle or anything it was low– Interviewer: “It was direct fire pretty much.” Yeah, they lowered them down, pulled the trigger and when we were ordered to pull off Captain Stroud didn’t want to go, he said he’s lost 13 guys, well 11 at that time, he said “I don’t want to give it up, I don’t want to give it up.” But he didn’t have an option, he just didn’t have an option so. (33:30) Interviewer: “I guess my impression from reading about it was that he was upset about having to stay there as long as he did and not get out earlier.” What he was upset about was staying there as long as he did and not getting the reinforcements that he needed. That’s what the caveat was right, I mean we lost two lieutenant and in one night, Terry Paul and I forget who the other one is right off the top of my head but yeah he was not– I mean nobody wants to stay in the damn same place in Vietnam more than a night if you don’t have to, it’s just suicidal and it was really evident every night we got hit, you know we got hit from three different directions, a different one each time, but their mortars were pin point accurate, their RPGs were pin point accurate. We ate satchel charge after satchel charge after satchel charge, even 122 millimeter rockets they’d hit that hill with pretty accurately. �Mitchell, David Interviewer: “Now did you just kind of keep moving around and changing positions while you were up there?” No, when we were there, we were there, everybody– Except for when we had some people killed, you know we’d backfill obviously. Interviewer: “But you were dug in there?” We were dug in, most of the bunkers were actually in some form N.V.A bunkers that we just reoccupied but we improved them and made it, you know we cut fields of fire so we’d clear out some stuff a little better so you could actually see and the other thing was is they were sneaky little guys. Very good at what they did but if you give them, if you give them a bush to hide behind they’ll disappear in it, I mean just the way it was. Interviewer: “So how did you manage to survive all that time?” (35:29) I don’t know. Interviewer: “Or the unit itself, I mean was there–” I don’t– Honest to God it’s just you went every minute of every hour of every day, you just you know we would prepare to fight at night, we’d get hit, we’d have that firefight, the next morning we’d do a patrol, you know they were ultimately interested in body count and all that BS that went along with it. We come back, the log birds that come in and resupply us with ammunition and food and replacements if we could. If there were guys that were wounded but not bad enough to call a medevac in at night we’d do that during the day, and so you just regear for that night. Interviewer: “So basically the enemy would lie low during the day–” Yeah. �Mitchell, David Interviewer: “When I guess we control the sky and the air and could see things–” Yeah. Interviewer: “And then at night they’d come out again.” Yeah, that’s just typical of almost everything we were in unless you happen to run across a trail watched or you know if they knew you were there and they wanted to set up an ambush but most of the incidences we had were either at– Almost always at first leg, before– Right before first leg. Interviewer: “Alright now through that time did you get hit again?” Yeah, July 13th, it was an RPG. Interviewer: “Okay, but again not badly enough to take you off?” (36:58) If you weren’t dead you didn’t leave, that’s just what Captain Straub’s theory was you know. Interviewer: “Alright, so once you finally do get off there I mean was it quiet, did they shoot at you as you were leaving?” Oh yeah, matter of fact when we left 805 we left on, I believe it was the 18th or something like that, and we actually piled up all our extra munitions, combat loss rifles, and the M-79s and some ammunition that was left for the recoilless rifle we just couldn’t pack and we moved off and we left one platoon back and they blew that stuff. Well as we were moving off we had what was known as a Kit Carson scout with us and he pulled the pins on his grenades and killed another guy and wounded Captain Stroud, moving off and so we ended up setting up right above the LZ that we were gonna be picked up on and those were other N.V.A bunkers that we found but we had seeded them with CS crystals and– But we spent the night there anyway and then the next �Mitchell, David morning when the birds came in to pick us up they were running– They were running off the 805 right towards us, burning up whatever they had AKs or 51 cals or whatever. Interviewer: “Alright, now please explain for the audience what is a Kit Carson scout?” It was an N.V.A soldier that was captured or surrendered, it was what was known basically as the Chieu Hoi program, and if there was a value or if they were willing to turn supposedly against the north they would send them off to a school and they would become what was known as a Kit Carson scout which meant that they would come back and be reassigned to a line unit and they were supposed to be the eyes and ears and know what was going on in the jungle and in and around that area, sometimes it worked, most of the time it was not real successful Interviewer: “Yeah and in this case counterproductive.” Counterproductive, but you know it’s another lesson learned. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you finally get out of there do they give you any downtime or are you right back in the field again?” (39:30) We went to Eagle Beach for I think two days. Interviewer: “And what do you do there?” Decompress– Well the first thing we did– That’s the first place I ran into hot running water showers was at Eagle Beach and when we went in to take a shower our medic was there with a stack of gauze pads and a bottle of faisal heck soap and he said “I wanna see you guys come out raw.” Okay well we came out and Captain Stroud was there and he handed everybody a bottle of whisky, or whatever they wanted to drink, but the caveat was you had to go sit down in the South China Sea because basically what you were doing scrubbing off all that jungle rot and stuff right and without that whisky you couldn’t do it, it would be like torture I’m serious, but we did that for a couple days and then you know it was back to business as usual. �Mitchell, David Interviewer: “Okay, now by the time you got back, had Ripcord been abandoned by the time you got back in the field?” No. Interviewer: “It was still all going on okay.” It was, but we went into, I believe it was Firebase Granite I think that’s where we went I don’t remember exactly but I do remember a comment from Fred Spalding at some point in time and he told everybody in the rear who was– Which was primarily the 506 that that B-52s were already in the air and they were gonna be hit that night. Now if they had done that on 902 or 1000 like they did Ripcord there probably wouldn’t be any safe place but I don’t think that we ever hit them with B-52s. Interviewer: “Well it would’ve been too close to Ripcord, B-52s–” (41:28) It would’ve been pretty close but you know. Interviewer: “Yeah and there’s usually the sort of minimum distance everyone had to be away from–” Oh yeah they wanted you to be five miles away, do you know how far that is in the jungle? Interviewer: “Well still bombs– I think even if you strike 1000 is so close to Ripcord that probably you’re not gonna do that.” You’ll get a flier. Interviewer: “But it’s what it would've taken.” �Mitchell, David That’s what it would’ve taken, you know I mean that’s what we did to Ripcord and we did that to Ripcord to basically destroy everything that we had left up there and Bob had gone back and he said it was like a ghost town. It was denuded all the way up and down the hills. Interviewer: “Alright, now after the Ripcord campaign was over at the end of July do things quiet down at all?” Yeah they got– Small skirmishes right but they had actually executed what their new mission was going to be when we rebuilt Ripcord. Again I know– I’m a believer that there was another offensive headed in the north similar to Tet of ‘68 I mean they just– But they had to change their focus initially and then not all that much longer after Ripcord, you know the monsoon seasons would start and that’s when they did a lot of their resupplying and their refortification and because we didn’t spend a lot of time in the field, we pulled people off fire bases, you couldn’t resupply you know and so we basically turned whatever we had back over to them and then next spring we go get it again. Interviewer: “Alright, during the monsoon season then how are you spending your time?” (43:25) Wet, cold, muddy, and we were not as deep into the mountains, we weren’t in the flatlands necessarily but we still would pull patrols but they weren’t as deep or as concentrated but it was miserable, it was miserable. Interviewer: “But how many months of that?” Seemed like a year but it was probably three or four months of pretty wet. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you get an R&R anywhere?” �Mitchell, David You know what I was scheduled for an R&R and then ended up in the 85th evac and then I was scheduled for another one and I ended up in the 95th evac and they asked me about another one and I said “Thanks but no thanks.” Interviewer: “Okay, and these are evacuation hospitals?” Yeah, one's in Danang, one’s in Phu Bai. Interviewer: “Okay, and why were you going there?” Well I had shrapnel from 805 so they sent me there for two days, come off of Eagle Beach and then I went there and then I had cellulitis in my leg and they had to go and scrape shrapnel off my shin bone and you know it was two days here, three days there but no thanks don’t give me an R&R I don’t want it again, I can’t afford it except for maybe dead. Interviewer: “Alright pause this here and– Alright so I was gonna ask at this point what’s morale like in the unit during this period now when you don’t have a lot of activity or whatever, you’re getting rained on a lot?” (45:13) It was pretty low from an overall morale standpoint but at the same time most of the problems that people have alluded to in Vietnam, the racial problems, the disorganization most of the, not all of it, but most of it occurred in the rear and a lot of it occurred in the rear because there just was not enough stuff to do during that period for a lot of people to do it right, I mean our supply sergeant he could only supply us when the helicopters would fly. If they didn’t fly there wasn’t shit to do and so that– And plus there was the, just the building unrest from the racial aspect, the political aspect was going through the roof. Interviewer: “Yeah, all the stuff from back home comes over.” I mean my brother was going to Ball State University and he’d sent me the Indianapolis Star or whatever it was and you can go through that paper whenever you got it and you could find a �Mitchell, David story in favor of the war, you could find a story against the war, you could find a story about apathy, they didn’t give a shit right. It was almost every time I saw one that was kind of where it was our country– You think it’s divided now? It was really divided back in the early 70s, maybe not as vocal about it but it was divided. Interviewer: “Because by the time you finish in Vietnam, Kent State has happened–” Kent State’s happened, Woodstock has happened. Interviewer: “The Calley trial comes up at some point, My Lai and it was about that comes out.” Yup. Interviewer: “All that kind of stuff going on, but basically did you spend your time either at forward firebases or in the field? Was that pretty much where you were?” (47:05) That’s all I ever was for the most part. Interviewer: “Yeah, now aside from your stray Chieu Hoi scout did you ever see much of the Vietnamese themselves? Were there civilians–” The civilians? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Anytime we were in the rear we had mamasans cleaning the hooches and they had duties around the base. So that was basically most of it, if we take a convoy somewhere, we go through Phu Bai or DaNang, well not even DaNang we went north of there, Hue. You’d see the indigenous people there then you know they’d be lining the streets and stuff when we were riding a deuce and a half but other than that it was primarily N.V.A. �Mitchell, David Interviewer: “So you’re really not seeing much, getting really acquainted with the local population at all the kind of stuff that you’re doing and certainly not seeing them when you’re out in the field.” No, there were no villages where we were, I mean almost virtually none in the mountains. Interviewer: “Yeah,I think even a lot of the Montagnard population had moved on or was hiding some place.” They were pretty remote, I mean they were an interesting group, we were taught about them a little bit, you know basically they wanted to be left alone. Don’t bother me, don’t screw with my women, you know you’re welcome to pass through but don’t try to change us, influence us, or whatever. That was just their culture. Interviewer: “Alright, okay now are there other particular things that stand out in your mind about the time you spent in Vietnam that you haven’t brought into the story yet?” (48:43) Yeah there’s a few things, before I went to Vietnam I went out to dinner with my mom and dad, and my uncle who had fought in the Philippines in World War II as an infantry soldier and he said “Davey I’m gonna tell you three things that can get you killed.” He said “Don’t ever ever ever make close friends, don’t ever think about home, and never ask anybody you’re in charge of to do something you won’t do yourself.” And that was a lesson that I tried to pass on to my replacement and anybody that was in my squad, it just, you know it filters down, it's a lesson in life learned. I had– In my life I had three significant events, Vietnam was one okay, marrying my wife was two, and the birth of our children. Those were the things– I married my wife June 5th, 1971 shortly after I got home, I was engaged to her before, the other thing was patriotism. Her dad, whom I was engaged to his daughter, was on the draft board when I got drafted. Never said a word, not a word, he was a Navy pilot in World War II. So it was the patriotism but the patriotism and the camaraderie and the respect for each other primarily existed in the field, there �Mitchell, David was not a lot of it in the base camp or in the rear, that’s where the division– That’s where I saw the division and experienced it whenever we were back so. Interviewer: “So as far as you were concerned you’d rather be out in the field?” Oh I didn’t like the base camps, I didn’t like the firebases, you’re captive you know, you’re just captive and at least in the field you had an opportunity to maneuver and move and in some cases you had some part of destiny on your side as well as on the enemy’s side, but on a fire base it was theirs, it was theirs for picking. Interviewer: “Yeah, you’re a target.” You’re a target and you’re always gonna be a target on a firebase. Interviewer: “Alright, now as you get to the end of your time in Vietnam, are you gonna have to go back and stay in the Army in the states or were you able to get out or what was the deal for you?” (51:31) I got out. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get an early out?” I got an early out to go back to school. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did that work, I mean you’re supposed to be on active duty for two full years when you’re a draftee?” Well, yes. Interviewer: “Okay, so how does it work that you can get out early?” �Mitchell, David You put in a request for early out to go– For whatever reason, school was the primary reason and I know you know this but you gotta realize that back in 1970-71 we started to really withdraw troops. So when you only have a month left, or a month and a half left, you know and it was near the end of the monsoon season, hadn’t even begun the spring build up process yet that hell they were glad to get rid of a lot of people or it seemed like it at any rate. So it was not at that point that difficult. Interviewer: “Okay, so when do you actually leave Vietnam?” January 10th. Interviewer: “Okay, ‘71?” 1971. Interviewer: “Alright, and now what was leaving like?” (52:40) Heaven, I mean I flew home on the most beautiful airplane in the world, it was a Pan American Stretch DC-8 right and the pilot we had, I can’t speak for everybody else, but there were two things– Three things that happened, the crew that was on, there the stewardesses, this was their first flight into Vietnam okay, the pilot had been in several times and so when he took off– Out of Cam Ranh, when he took off out of Cam Ranh Bay he tilted to the left so everybody could say goodbye and then he tilted back to the right so everybody could say goodbye and about as soon as he hit cruising altitude, if there were 250 people in that airplane I swear there was 240 bottle of whisky came out of AWOL bags, and the stewardess was running up she was in a panic, running up and down the aisle screaming “You can’t do that! You can’t do that!” There was a little– He was a black 1st sergeant, he grabbed a hold of her and set her down on his knee, he was sitting on the aisle, and he said “Honey, just let them go.” She said– He said “In about an hour you ain’t gonna have any problem with anybody.” We landed in Yokota Air Force Base in Japan, five of us walked off the airplane, five, the rest of them couldn’t walk if they wanted to. �Mitchell, David Interviewer: “So where’d you reenter the states at?” Fort Lewis. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then do they discharge you from there?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now when they did that did they give you anything, tell you anything, watch out for protestors, don’t wear a uniform, anything like that?” Well I had to wear a uniform to fly military standby but when we went into Fort Lewis and then they always put you in a room, see if anybody’s got any drugs, leave them underneath your seat and they will be prosecution or anything right. So you go through that, they load us on buses, they took us to an orderly room and we were standing outside milling around and the company clerk came out and said “Is there a Sergeant Mitchell here?” and I said “Oh shit what’d I do now?” (54:57) I said “Yeah.” and they said “Well somebody wants to see you in the back.” It was a sergeant that had been in my unit that had come home a month and a half ago and he was out processing people. I was literally out of the Army in 45 minutes, he took me back to his barracks, I got a shower, civilian clothes, he did his thing with those guys, we went out and had a few drinks. Next morning he gave me a set of his dress greens, took me– Got me paid, took me to SeaTac. That was it, I was done. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you have any trouble getting home? So nobody hassled you or anything like that?” Oh yeah, they did in SEATech there were instigators and you know the problem is? Well what I saw, most of it was the younger generation that was– And it’s the same thing today about the protest of some things they don’t know what they’re protesting or why, they just don’t. It’s just “The thing.” Right and if you want to protest a war, go to war, see what it’s like, and then come back and protest it but so yeah there was that but see I had– He had given me a pair of jeans and �Mitchell, David a shirt, whatever right my friend, and so when I was on the airplane I just went in the restroom and took off all the dress greens, the class A’s, put them in my AWOL bag, and put civilian clothes on. When I got to Chicago that was the end of that. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now once you finally get back home what do you do?” I went back to school at a local– At a regional campus, I.U Purdue and then in June we got married and we moved to West Lafayette and I finished up one semester there and then I just was not comfortable in the big university setting so I ended up transferring to Tri-State University. Which is a small private school in Angola and I ended up graduating from there with a degree in mechanical engineering. Interviewer: “Okay, and then that became your career at that point?” I went to work for Dow Chemical in Midland, Michigan for five years, left there and went to Alaska to work for– It was [unintelligible] BP at the time which ended up being BP Exploration, for 18 years and then I bought a spill clean up business with a friend of mine, and we sold it to a native corporation, moved to Arizona, went back to work as a maintenance superintendent at the papermill and then when they closed it five years ago, I retired. (58:00) Interviewer: “Very good.” But that’s basically what I did, I was in engineering almost all my life. Interviewer: “Alright, and then I guess to close here, when you look back at your time in the service how do you think that affected you?” It was a life changing event for me, to frame it up in a few words my wife told me about five years ago she said “I haven’t told you this but the boy who went to Vietnam was not the man that came home.” I mean you know it put a whole new perspective on things because if you can’t fix �Mitchell, David it don’t worry about it and don’t worry about anything because words never solved a damn problem in this life. Interviewer: “So for you in a way it helped you learn how to move forwards rather than just–” Oh yeah, oh yeah it was a great experience, it was a great experience, tortuous at times but it was a great experience. It taught you that you only imagine what your limit is, you have no idea what it is till you find it and you know even on Hill 805 with no sleep for five or six days we never really found our limit, never really found it. So that’s it. Interviewer: “Yeah, thank you very much for sharing the story today.” You bet. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MitchellD2158V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mitchell, Charles David Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10 Title A name given to the resource Mitchell, David (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource David Mitchell was born in Auburn, Indiana, in 1949 where he graduated high school in 1967 before attending Purdue University. Unfortunately, Mitchell did not acclimate well to college life and soon left the university and was drafted into the Army in April of 1969. He was then sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for Basic Training where he was first introduced to regimented discipline. After Basic, Mitchell was transferred to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for Advanced Individual Training. He then volunteered to go to Noncommissioned Officer School at Fort Benning, Georgia, to learn tactics and leadership geared toward Vietnam. Before deployment, Mitchell briefly served as a Drill Sergeant at Fort Polk before he was shipped out to a replacement company in Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam. He was then assigned to D Company, 2nd Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. He received his first Purple Heart after receiving rocket shrapnel during a firefight. As a ‘Swing Battalion,’ D Company encountered a lot of firefights and, thus, had lots of soldier turnover. His Company Commander stated that the Battalion managed to stay alive by doing the unexpected, navigating the jungle and avoiding official trails when possible. During the fight for Hill 805, there was no enemy response during the day, but at night, his Battalion was hit regularly, forcing the men to stay awake at night. Mitchell, again, was hit by rocket shrapnel during the fight and received his second Purple Heart. Overall, Mitchell recalled how morale was low amongst his men and that the monsoon season left them wet and miserable for months. He remembered only seeing North Vietnamese civilians while in the rear or while moving by villages in the field. Most racial and political divisions were only seen in the rear base camps. Toward the end of his tour, Mitchell requested and received an early-out of the military to go back to school, leaving Vietnam in January of 1971. Landing in Fort Lewis, Washington, he was officially discharged and quickly shed his military dress uniform for civilian clothing to evade antiwar protesters and instigators. Mitchell went back to Purdue University, married in June of 1971, and then transferred to a smaller tri-state university campus where he graduated with a degree in mechanical engineering. He then went to work for Dow Chemical Company in Midland, Michigan, BP Exploration Incorporated in Alaska, and several other mechanical engineering jobs before retiring. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2878f13b81293cb79952f6f6f5c4f070.mp4 48cba395d252b56f33a6a0eb57f78b5a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f35326d18cd05f977d0d5295e4ebef2e.pdf 645fc4f028c97b227f10aedf3ef179c4 PDF Text Text McCarthy, Stacie Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Iraq War Interviewee’s Name: Stacie McCarthy Length of Interview: (26:59) Interviewed by: Koty Leroy-Rollins Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “Hello this is a joint production between W.K T.V Voices and the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. My name is Koty Leroy-Rollins with the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project, and I’m here with Stacie McCarthy of Grand Rapids, Michigan. Alright, let’s go ahead and start, when and where were you born?” I was born March 10th 1985 back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, in Framingham Massachusetts. Interviewer: Okay, so what was life like? How did you wind up joining the military?” (1:03) Well it’s interesting, I had about six years of a fairly normal childhood in a suburban neighborhood and then my mother and father split up, basically mother took us kids and unfortunately we had 60- we lived in a pretty bad situation. My dad got custody and married my current mom who used to be in the Navy, so I was raised in Michigan from 12 to 20 and around 18 my mom started mentioning that the Navy might be good for me, and then I did a little research and said “Hell yeah I wanna do this.” Interviewer: “Alright, before we get into your Navy career with a lot of the younger veterans we like to ask, do you remember 9/11? Do you remember what it was like seeing that moment?” �McCarthy, Stacie Yes, I was in high school actually my junior year, and it was between- it was between classes, I’m walking from one class to another and I noticed the T.V’s are on and there’s two buildings and one of them’s on fire, and so we just- No classes happened the rest of the day we just sat there in each class and just watched everything unfold and it was a shock at first. I didn’t know how to feel and then the more we watched it the more everything like, the reality of it came and it was pretty terrifying and devastating. Interviewer: “Did that have any influence on your wanting to join the military?” In a way yeah, I kind of wanted to help keep people safe, but I also wanted to get the hell out of Michigan. Interviewer: “That’s fair, so you moved from Massachussettes to Michigan with you dad right?” Mhmm. Interviewer: “Okay, so what year did you enlist?” (2:48) I enlisted in 2005, two years after high school. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was boot camp like?” It was interesting, it was very active, it was very stressful, I already had post-traumatic stress disorder without realizing it so the yelling was not very well received by me, but I did my best to kind of, you know bite down and keep going. So that was actually more stressful than anything else, I didn’t mind the physical aspect at all because I was already running a lot beforehand, the push-ups obviously were difficult and I ate so much food and lost weight. I kept having to tighten up my shorts because we were moving all the time, you know got shin splints from running in boots, the little shin high boot, we didn’t even have the big combat boots yet. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “Yeah, so after boot camp where’d you go?” I went to the Presidio of Monterey, the Defense Language Institute, to learn Korean. Interviewer: “Okay and did you- when you signed up did they tell you you were gonna be a linguist or did they kind of spring it on you?” I told them I wanted to be a linguist, so I took the D-lab, the Defense Language Aptitude Battery Test and got- scored really high on it, I got a 140 out of 140 on that particular test, and so they didn’t have any spots so- but I was delayed entry so we had me sign up as a sonar tech just in case, and then within a month I was signing a new contract to be a linguist. Interviewer: “Okay, and you were a Korean linguist?” Yes. Interviewer: “How long did that school take?” (4:30) That one was…the schooling itself was a year and a half but I was there for two years because I had to wait for the class to start. Interviewer: “Okay, so that was quite a long time.” Yeah I was in a school for way longer than a lot of people. Interviewer: “How was that though?” It was kind of awesome, it was stressful because you know, there’s a lot of aspects of military that aren’t so great, but I loved learning the language, I loved making friends, I loved being able to explore Monterey, and it was very interesting I’d wake up- I used to live in, when I lived in �McCarthy, Stacie the barracks on, at DLI we used to- I’d come out and the seals would be arf-ing away down at the bay, you could hear them all the way up the hill. Interviewer: “So what didn’t you like if you don’t mind me asking?” There were certain chiefs and petty officers who were- they were a little overzealous and some of their approaches they didn’t- they weren’t very human, if you know what I mean. Interviewer: “Kind of like ‘Do this-Do that be on time all the time I don’t care’ that sort of thing?” Yeah exactly, they weren’t as open, they were more intimidating. When I went- actually after a stint in Hawaii as a Korean linguist I went back there as a second class petty officer for Tagalog, and that one was a little more fun because I lived off post, I had a car, but we had a really crappy chief and I was a junior, or an assistant leading petty officer so that was kind of a nightmare but the class part was great. Interviewer: “Okay, so we jumped a little bit ahead-” Yes we did, sorry about that. Interviewer: “So let’s swing back, after your first stint in DLI that was two years you learned Korean. Are you fluent in Korean or?” (6:25) I wish, I was proficient to a point, I have lost a lot of that skill but I can retain it- I can regain it. It’s not completely lost. I still have study materials at home if I wanted to pick it back up, I know the basics so I can jump right back in. Interviewer: “Did they teach you just like, how to actually speak Korean or is it just interpreting certain things?” �McCarthy, Stacie Well they taught us how to actually speak Korean from introductions to- and ordering food all the way to discussing news items and complex thoughts. They wanted us, the highest level they were aiming for was a three which is discussing opinions and etc. Interviewer: “Okay so after that you went to Hawaii?” Yes. Interviewer: “That was your first duty station.” (7:18) That was my first duty station. Interviewer: “What was that like?” It was awesome, before I got a car it was kind of horrendous, because I always had to ask people for rides to work because we didn’t have a busing system or anything like that, and I was fiercely independent so it was really hard for me to ask for things. So I finally got my license and moved off post because I was a third class and they didn’t want us in the barracks because they were kind of overflowing, but the training was cool, getting the security clearance was really easy and I got in- Well, easy for me, no issues, but we, we started to learn our job and it was discouraging at first cause my job didn’t 100% involve language. So I was really frustrated but after a while I got into the groove of things, I bonded with my coworkers, I enjoyed Hawaii and started training par corps towards the end of my enlistment, my first enlistment. Interviewer: “Yeah, so what was your job, can you talk about that?” I was an analyst. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were just listening to things and interpreting them?” It was more of a- It was more of analyzing traffic. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “Okay, okay so just like a flow of information?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and were you working out of Pearl Harbor?” At first I was working out of, what did we call it, it wasn’t NC time it was…the tunnel. Interviewer: “Yeah the little offshoot.” Yeah it was the original NSA building there and we were, we were joint we worked with everybody, worked with civilians, we worked with Navy, Army, Air Force, Coast Guard. Interviewer: “Okay, and you just did your- how many years were you there?” (9:15) I was there for three years. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you reenlisted after that?” I did because I didn’t know what the heck I wanted to do, after that first enlistment realized I needed more time and I wanted to go back to California, and actually return to Hawaii so I- They said “Okay well you have a choice between Indonesian and Tagalog” and I’m like “Oh well they both sound great.” They said “Well we got a Tagalog class starting now or around this time.” I said, “That’s perfect.” and the chief was funny he goes “You know you’re gonna come back to Hawaii right?” As if I didn’t want to come back. Interviewer: “Right cause why would you want to come back to Hawaii?” Why would I- Well there were a lot of people who hated it there but I never understood it I always, I never had an issue with the people in Hawaii. So, and I absolutely loved going to the �McCarthy, Stacie beach at any time of the year when I had time. Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s the best part about Hawaii. So you learn Tagalog, that’s the language of which country?” The Philippines, it’s the main official dialect. Interviewer: “Okay, was that harder or easier than Korean?” It was harder for me to speak because there’s a lot of conjugations but it was easier to learn and it’s easier to understand because it was a bit simpler. It had some roots in Spanish because of the Spanish occupation of the Philippines, so that was helpful too. Interviewer: “Okay and after- how long was that?” (10:40) That was just a year. Interviewer: “Okay, so not as intensive as Korean.” No, I mean they were both- it was six to seven hours a day, five days a week, plus homework and speaking. We had a lot more fun though because I was less scared. Interviewer: “I mean it’s basically you’re cramming four years of language study into a one or two year span right?” Exactly, it's like drinking from a fire hose. Interviewer: “Yep.” Learning how to talk. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “So you have immersion training after each of those stints at school right?” We have immersion training during those stints. We had like many immersions where we would take everyone to Fort Ord and we’d spend the night, and we’d have like this whole couple days of just straight up nothing but that language, and the Tagalog immersion wasn’t quite as extensive as the Korean immersion but- So that was just a full day but it was funny because ourwhat was she, our department head was a Korean woman and she was also a Korean teacher at one point and she knew that I was also a linguist in Korean, and so when I was working with her on this one thing she had me translate between Filipino- or Tagalog, and Korean which was a lot of fun. It was hard but it was a lot of fun. Interviewer: “Yeah because you’re going from Korean to English to Tagalog to English to Korean right?” Exactly because- and that’s not how you’re supposed to think about it but that’s still how you think about it because I was in my mid 20’s. I understand when you’re children, it’s a lot easier to just absorb them as if it’s just another way of speaking, it’s harder to do that when you’re an adult. Interviewer: “Did you notice a lot of your classmates struggling with language?” (12:29) I mean we all struggled, most of us- in my Tagalog class most of us excelled, we were very apt. In Korean it was a little more difficult, I had a speaking partner in class at one point who just stared at me when I said something in Korean and then it would just make me like exhausted and frustrated because I wasn’t getting anything out of working with them. Like dude come on, help me out here. Interviewer: That’s funny. Say something simple. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: So, they sent you to Korea after your Korean class right?” No. Interviewer: “Was that during?” There was an opportunity but I didn’t take it because I was an idiot at the time, I was a young woman in love with an idiot. So I’m like “No I don’t wanna go.” cause I don’t wanna be away from him that much you know that long, it was stupid, but when I was stationed in Hawaii I got to go to Seoul for a refresher course where I studied at Kyung Hee University, and it was so cool. Interviewer: “How far into your first tour was that?” That was towards the end of my first tour, that was my last language training before I took the last D.L.P.T Defense Language Proficiency Test and because I went to Korea I did really well. Interviewer: “Okay, what was that like going to Korea?” (13:53) It was cool, I mean I could read everything even if I didn’t understand everything so I was able to ask “Hey what does this mean?” There were- There was Dunkin’ Donuts everywhere. Interviewer: “That’s really weird.” I know, but they had these really cool, they had really cool stuff that you didn’t really have here like lentil filled croquettes and all that, it was actually kind of awesome. Interviewer: “I’m sorry that sounds terrible.” It sounds- you know I’m a weirdo with- I’m a big foodie so almost anything sounds good to me but, I would take the subway and or the bus, or walk, there was a lot of that. During off time I just- a lot of the time I just went off on my own and explored. Sometimes went with friends to �McCarthy, Stacie see some movies, friends that I came with, and we did- I went to the spa a lot because it’s really cheap. You could just go in there and you hang out in the hot tubs, maybe get a body scrub or a massage, and it was perfect because it was winter, it was cold as heck. So I went there a lot. Interviewer: “That’s pretty cool.” And then the school itself was- it was intense because you only spoke Korean. I was in a class by myself with all these people from other countries who did not speak English. One of us knew English, so she was actually pretty awesome, well she was awesome anyway but it sucked because I was- I made friends with these classmates but couldn’t maintain a relationship with them without having to declare it and it was really difficult so I had- I basically cut ties cause someone freaked me out about it they’re like “Oh you’re gonna lose your clearance.” and I’m like, it’s just easy for me to make friends. Interviewer: “So how long were you in Seoul?” (15:44) Six weeks. Interviewer: “Okay so month and a half that sounds.” Yep, I stayed in a dormitory with a heated floor. Interviewer: “Oh, a heated floor.” That was the heat and it actually kept the room really warm, and you had slippers for this- the bathroom was this- there was a glass wall or what not like a shower wall, and you had your toilet and sink and everything and then the showerhead was right there. So, and they expected us to clean, you know keep the place clean so when I cleaned it I just sprayed the whole bathroom down. Interviewer: “So the other people in your class, did they know you were military?” �McCarthy, Stacie No, they weren’t supposed to know, the only people who knew were the people I came with and we had a separate class in the afternoon that was just military topics. Interviewer: “Okay was that taught by-” That was taught by a Korean teacher, he’s a civilian but he knew, like the teachers were all in the know, but yeah we were supposed to kind of keep it quiet forInterviewer: “For obvious reasons.” Yeah. Interviewer: “You didn’t want people to know you were U.S military because then they’d be like, trying to follow you or get information or something, the paranoia.” (17:00) Exactly, that was the thing you never knew who is going to be that person, and I had classmates from Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, she was a, what they called a “kyo-po” she was ethnically Korean but she lived overseas, and she worked at the Seoul embassy. She was awesome, I loved Elena, I miss her. We had people from Japan and China, everyone was just really sweet so it was really hard to be suspicious. Interviewer: “Yeah. So, just so I got the timeline right, you went to Hawaii for three years, then you went to Korea for a month and a half.” Correct, Korea was during the three year stay. Interviewer: “And then from there you went back to Hawaii for a little bit, then you went back to Monterey to do Tagalog.” Yeah, yes. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “What happened after the Tagalog?” I went back to Hawaii for three and a half years and for a month out of that I was loaned out to a ship. Interviewer: “So what did you do in Hawaii the second time?” Pretty much the same thing except for in the beginning I was placed in the defense travel system portion of our command. I was the one in charge of getting sailors their government credit card accounts and making sure that their travel vouchers were good to go and all that fun stuff Interviewer: “And this was when you were back with Nyack naval information operations command.” (18:27) Yes they put me in direct support. Interviewer: “Okay and what is direct support?” These are sailors who are, they work intelligence but they are, they can be loaned out basically to the shore side like the national side in Hawaii, or out to ships. Interviewer: “Okay and for most of your time there you did the DTS and then you went to work-” I got hurt. Interviewer: “How’d you get hurt?” I got hit by a wave. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “How very naval of you.” I was on the beach and I was goofing off in the water and I got lifted up by a very big wave up at North Shore and it dislocated my knee, so I had to have a full patella reconstruction. They put me in the transient personnel unit on Pearl Harbor cause I wasn’t deployable, and when I was back from limited duty, even though I always had pain after that, they put me back in direct support but I didn’t get to go back to DTS. Which was something I knew like the back of my hand at that point, and so that was really frustrating because half the time we were either doing some dumb training or just sitting there bored out of our skulls cause we didn’t have a job to do, and I needed to be utilized. They sent me to the…what did we call it, they sent me to the watch a few times where you and I hung out quite a bit, worked together and I loved being there because I had something to do. Interviewer: “Yeah, and this was on NCTAMS, right?” Yes Interviewer: “Which is naval…it’s a big acronym.” (20:12) It is a big acronym and that was where the new NSA building was. Interviewer: “Naval something telecommunication and…we should’ve looked this up before this.” We really should have but it’s okay, they’ll understand it was, it was intelligence things. Interviewer: “It’s the second naval base on Hawaii.” Yeah, it is. Interviewer: “And you worked on the watch floor pretty much on and off for how long?” �McCarthy, Stacie Oh my goodness, a couple years, pretty sure. Yeah and they, during my last year they deployed me to the Shiloh. Interviewer: “Okay, and what is the Shiloh?” It’s a cruiser. Interviewer: “Okay and what did you do on the Shiloh?” (20:54) I read a lot. Interviewer: “Okay and you were off of South Korea right? But you never-” We met- I met them in Singapore and we just kind of cruised around the Pacific, and we docked in Singa- I know that’s not right, we docked in Korea and we docked in Japan which was kind of awesome. Interviewer: “Okay so you got to experience Korea one last time right?” Right, yeah, yep. I would love to go back for vacation if and when I have enough money. Interviewer: “So your second tour in Hawaii was a lot less eventful than your first one other than getting injured and sent to a boat for a little bit.” Yeah, although I did enjoy it a little more, except when in, you remember direct support, we had a couple leaders that weren’t really good at what they did and kind of made our lives miserable. Once I became a first class petty officer it was evident. Interviewer: “Yeah we had some truly terrible leaders, if you’re watching you know who you are.” �McCarthy, Stacie But we had really good leaders too. Interviewer: “That’s true.” There was a new master chief, I met him when he was a senior chief and I was first coming to Hawaii and a Korean linguist, and he messaged me on Facebook and said “What can I do to keep you in?” When I was getting out, I’m like “It’s already too late but thank you.” Interviewer: “So when did you rank up actually? When did you get third class?” (22:20) Third class…oh I got third class upon graduating Korean, that was the deal. Interviewer: “Okay so it’s an automatic thing.” Yeah it was an automatic thing. Now the second class I had to take a test, and first class I had to take a test and I ranked up to second class pretty quickly too. I was, I think I was a second class almost as soon as I got on the watch floor. Interviewer: “Okay, so that was during your first-” First yeahInterviewer: “Sorry, go.” They ranked us up really fast especially Korean linguists, we had like 100%Interviewer: “Rank up?” Yes, promotion. �McCarthy, Stacie Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you make first? Was that during your first tour?” No, it was during my second tour when I was coming back from the transient personnel unit. I was injured and becoming a first class. Interviewer: “That’s kind of funny. Why did they rank you up then?” Because I did well on the test and it was my turn. Interviewer: “Alright then.” It’s not- you know my injury wasn’t exactly, it wasn’t 100% my fault, but yeah of course some of our duties, being on the ship and having to run in formation and other things did aggravate the condition so. Interviewer: “So what made you get out?” (23:39) I was ready, I needed to move on, I wanted to go to music school and be a musician, and so I’m working on that. I was tired and yeah I needed to do something else, and I was already planning on getting out, I just didn’t get out as early as I initially planned. Interviewer: “Okay, and what’s life been like on the outside?” It’s been pretty awesome, I mean there’s a lot less undue stress. I mean I still get stressed out because school is a lot of work and life is- life can be pretty difficult. It’s expensive, I do miss that paycheck, and those allowances but- and I do miss some friends from, you know certain duty stations, and I miss having a guaranteed job, but overall I’m actually really happy with where it’s, where I’ve been lately. Interviewer: “Alright, have you maintained Tagalog at all? I know you said you didn’t do much with Korean but-” �McCarthy, Stacie Little bit, actually my Tagalog is not as good as my Korean. It doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily, although I can figure out what’s going on. Interviewer: “Okay, few more questions then we’ll get outta here. Has your military experience really affected you now that you’re out, like have you noticed anything like that?” Well, I feel like I have a higher work ethic in some cases, in others I stress certain things a lot less cause it’s not as big of a deal. When I first got out, I think the biggest part is addressing people who are higher ranking than you in the civilian world as far as jobs and school classes. It’s a lot different, it’s a lot more relaxed, I don’t have to be as formal. People used to laugh at me because I was so formal. It hasn’t been that hard of an adjustment. Interviewer: “Okay, knowing everything that you know now, would you do it again?” (25:55) Yeah, actually knowing everything that I know now I would’ve gotten, I would’ve gotten some psychiatric help for my PTSD and depression. Interviewer: “Okay, and in the future if you have a kid and they come to you and they say they want to join the military, what would you say?” Depending on the kid, which isn’t happening by the way, but if I were to be caring for a kid or anyone that came up to me I would look at who they are, what their disposition is, and advise based on that because it’s not for everybody. I mean I did well, I was frustrated a lot but I did well, and someone like me I would say “Hell yeah, go for it.” Interviewer: “Alright, so anything else you wanna talk about? Anything cool that happened that I missed?” �McCarthy, Stacie I don’t know, eh that’s not that cool. Nothing that cool happened after that. Interviewer: “Okay, well I guess that’s it for that.” Thank you very much. Interviewer: “Thank you.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McCarthyS2300V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McCarthy, Stacie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04 Title A name given to the resource McCarthy, Stacie (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Stacie McCarthy was born on March 10, 1985, in Framingham, Massachusetts, where she lived a normal suburban childhood. When her parents divorced, her father married her stepmother, who was in the Navy, and moved his family to Michigan. McCarthy was in her junior year of high school when she watched the televised 9/11 attacks on her school’s televisions. This influenced her later decision to join the Navy so that she could help protect people as well as escape a mundane life in Michigan. McCarthy enlisted into the Navy two years after graduating high school in 2005. Boot camp was very stressful and strenuous for her since she had preexisting Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, making the yelling and vocal discipline difficult for her. After Boot Camp, she chose to become a Navy linguist and attended the Defense Language Institute in the Presidio of Monterey to study Korean. For her first assignment, McCarthy was deployed to Hawaii for three years where she worked as an information analyst between all military branches and civilian society. While stationed in Hawaii, she attended Kyung Hee University for six weeks in South Korea for a refresher course in Korean. McCarthy then reenlisted since she was still unsure about the direction of her career. For her second assignment, she learned the Tagalog language, a prominent dialect in the Philippines, for deployment to Tegale, Indonesia, for a year. After her assignment in Tegale, she returned to Hawaii for three years where she worked as an analyst for the Navy’s Direct Support program. She was also briefly injured after being hit, ironically, by a strong wave while visiting the beach. During her last year of deployment, McCarthy was transferred to the naval cruiser USS Shiloh where she traveled around the Pacific, docking in various countries across Southeast Asia. When she made the decision to leave the service, McCarthy felt it was the appropriate time for her to move on and pursue a higher education in music performance. She enjoyed reentering civilian life, even though she missed her military friends, her assured employment, and consistent pay. Reflecting upon her military service, McCarthy believed the Navy installed in her a greater work ethic, ability to endure stress, and a recognition and respect of authority. She also concluded that she would join the service again if given the chance and would recommend entering the service to anyone able and willing to commit. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/49c2a77f3f7c813041145db83c354a58.mp4 91f1e549f5a80852b37463d1acebbf03 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e6ba4ec4717e2b4df24ee8471a23587.pdf d67300a16d90ffd7d7a893c93d95283f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Mathias Mapes-Pearson Interview Length: (1:31:22) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're talking today with Mathias Mapes-Pearson of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History project. Okay so begin with some background, where and when were you born? I was born July 16th, 1995 in Burlington, Vermont. Interviewer: Alright and how long did you live there? We were only there for about a year and then my family moved to the West Michigan. Interviewer: Okay and- and then did you grow up in West Michigan then? Yep I grew up in Rockford, Michigan for all my life, went to Rockford high school. Interviewer: Okay and what we were parents doing for a living when you were growing up? My mom is a high school teacher and professor at East Grand Rapids High School and Grand Rapids Community College and my dad works for Wolverine Worldwide as a, like a software business, kind of like run supply and demand for their system. Interviewer: Okay, okay something that pays decently. Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, okay alright and where'd you go to high school? I went to Rockford High School. Interviewer: Okay and when did you graduate? 2013. Interviewer: Okay now you were pretty young when 9/11 happened but what do you remember about that event? I remember everyone's being, was really scared. I was in first grade and my mom picked me up from school early that day. I remember everyone was- was running around and- and was scared, I didn't quite understand why at the time and I didn't learn until a few years later exactly what was going on. But I thought it was kind of a free day off from school so. (1:26) Interviewer: Okay now as you were getting older though we had wars going on in Afghanistan and Iraq, did you pay any attention to them by the time got in high school? Before high school not really, we did some, a little bit in middle school and stuff and I didn't quite understand why everyone hated Saddam Hussein and other people like that so much and like most Americans at the time, I actually did believe that Saddam had something to do with 9/11. But I didn't pay attention much to the wars, I did what, I would watch like documentaries on 9/11 and the planes hitting the towers growing up on National Geographic and Discovery Channel and they would put them out usually around the anniversary. (2:04) Interviewer: Okay so how did you wind up going in the military? I was coming out of high school and I really didn't enjoy school. I struggled in high school academically, I just- just wasn’t a good fit for me. I wasn't focused and I didn't really want to do it and I also didn't on the flip side want to be a guy who just sits in his hometown, works, and �you know is there forever. So, for me the military was kind of the best option, I had a close friend of mine that I played rugby with in high school that was joining the military and he came from a military family and he suggested I talk to a recruiter and talked to a recruiter and liked what he had to say and brought it home to my parents. Interviewer: Okay and then which service did you join? United States Marine Corps. Interviewer: Okay and why did you pick them? I always knew, I knew of the Marines growing up. I kind of knew the prestige and kind of the ‘we’re kind of better than everyone mentality’ they had kind of more discipline and stuff like that and I didn't talk to any of the branches and so when I heard what the Marines had to say, I liked what they had to say and I just, I decided I, that was what I was gonna do. Interviewer: Okay now when you were first talking to the recruiter where they offering you options for what kinds of training you could get? Or how do they present things? (3:14) He made you pick certain traits from like, almost like a deck of cards that had words on them and- and then you would kind of sift through them and figure out where he thinks you would fit. They obviously had quotas for certain jobs that they still had to push you towards, but I told him first I, at first I wanted to be an MP when I first went in but unfortunately that quota at the time was full and the best they could give me was Security Forces. And so, he offered that, you can go do a Security Forces for two and a half years and get solid training and actually get better promotions and then we'll go to the infantry for two and half years. Interviewer: Okay so what's the difference between Security Forces/ Military Police? So Military Police are strictly base guards and they run what the base security of running the- the checkpoint, stuff like that, and respond to call, you know issues on base. Security Forces is a- a group that was created in the ‘80s that was used to, for deployments in certain situations around the world to strategic locations to reinforce embassies if they want extra security or need help. (4:16) Interviewer: Okay so you’re one kind of step past, so you're doing things that are equivalent of what Marine Guards would traditionally do with embassies or? Yeah, we would reinforce them and they, but mine, Marine Guards, there's only like there's only half a dozen of them at each embassy. We had a platoon of 32 and we were fully equipped with squads and- and we were infantry Marines at heart but then we also had later on training thatthat allowed us to be in a fixed site type of environment. Interviewer: Alright and so when do you actually go in? I actually leave for boot camp in- in September 2013. Interviewer: Okay and where do you go for boot camp? I went to San Diego, California. Interviewer: Okay now how did they get you there? We flew, I flew from Detroit, Michigan straight to California. I went through the MEPS process in Lansing and then they send you to- to Detroit and they fly you out and then you land and as soon as you get off at the airport you get picked up by buses and they bring you to the, there's an area the USO right outside there. They bring you to there where you mill around until the general structure show up and then they put you on a bus, and then the game, then the- the boot camp begins. (5:29) Interviewer: Okay what time of day was it that you actually got on the bus? �When we got on the- to go to boot camp or to go? Interviewer: To go to boot camp, yeah from the airport, yeah. It was- was maybe nine o'clock at night something like, it was dark out I remember that it was about nine or ten. Interviewer: Alright now once you get on the bus what happens? You're told to put your head between your knees and not to look up, where, no matter what and supposedly they drive around in circles to kind of disorient people, because the airport is literally right next to me the MCRD right there. So, supposedly they do that, I don't quit remember how long the trip was but yeah you just put your head down and wait for the bus to stop. Interviewer: Okay and when the bus does stop then what? A drill instructor comes out and he’ll give you a set of instructions that you're gonna yell everything you say, you're gonna move quickly, and you're gonna refer to them by sir and ma’am, and then you’re gonna get outside and stand on the yellow footprints, and then we get another set instructions, and then says “go” and everyone gets up out of their seats as fast as possible. (6:31) Interviewer: Okay now the recruits on the bus, were there some women there or, because women means I guess go to Parris Island normally? Yeah no, but we still had some that- some women there that were personnel there. So, if you ever encountered them whether they were officers of some kind or something like that, but no at- at my- my time there was strictly men, that was all- all men there. Interviewer: Okay and then what kind of processing do you go through? You're up for about 24-48 hours after you get there. You are constantly, you get your haircut, they go through- they go through all your stuff, you call your family and tell them that you made it there safely, and that you'll contact them through a letter at some point. And then you start getting issued your gear, start getting put into basically you're holding platoon for- for a week where they’ll kind of get you a little bit acclimated to what the- what military life is about to be like. And it's just, it's a long 24-48 hour process where you don't get sleep, you're up the entire time doing something. (7:26) Interviewer: Okay how much of that were you expecting? I was expecting some sleep deprivation, the initial start I didn't quite expect it to be quite so constant. I thought they would get tired and we would get breaks, but you don't and they, it was constant. I mean you were just trying to fill out paperwork with no sleep is a- is a difficult process to do. Interviewer: Alright and then- and then are they giving you, are you doing any kind of tests or did they do all that already before you got there? They did all that at- at- at MEPS they do all your phys- all your blood work, make sure everything with you is healthy. You eventually do, once you get to your- your- your platoon you do your- your physical fitness tests and stuff like that. And that's when they start keeping track of you know who needs more work out, you know PT and who doesn't. Who can, you know manage themselves and stuff like that. (8:19) Interviewer: Alright so now how is the boot camp set up? How long is it? Does is it have phases? �It's three months long and there's- there's three phases, might be four now. First phase is- is just drill and it's- it's constant and it's you're- you're building that discipline and they're teaching you how to be a Marine, you know- you know that you're one together, you can't do everything on your own and stuff like that and the drill instructors are with you all the time, 24/7. They will never leave your side, there's always one that is up and around with you and they're not a setup, you know called Fire Watch and the squad base, stuff like that and you're just you're with- with them the entire time and it's a lot of physical training, breaking you down and constantly getting yelled at, working with your rifle and all that stuff. Then the second phase they start to build on that, they teach you about your uniforms, you go through rifle qual, stuff like that. Then you start going through the obstacle courses and you start doing martial arts and stuff like that and so you start building what you, the basic Marine needs to be. And then the third phase is the kind of culmination of everything, you do your rifle range and your qualification and then you do a qualification for your- for your tan belt for your martial arts and do your final drills and inspections and stuff like that. And then at the last bit of it you have The Crucible which is a three-day long event, where you, basically you essentially are sleep-deprived and food deprived for three days, while you do various events that Medal of Honor recipients in the past have had to do. And they set them up to build camaraderie and kind of build that Marine that you mount. And then you hike up a massive mountain or hill, I guess depending on how high you think it is but you hike that to the- to the edge of the water and then you- you finally receive the Globe and Anchor and your officially made a- a Marine. Interviewer: Okay now is all this at the Depot in San Diego or are parts of it at Camp Pendleton? The first- first phase and that is at MCRD and then the second phase and part of third phases isis out at Camp Pendleton. (10:18) Interviewer: Okay now how easy or hard was all this for you? For me it was fairly easy, I come from a- come from a family where it’s kind of structured so I- I took to authority pretty well, some other people didn’t, and I was already physically fit after playing rugby in high school and stuff like that going into it. So, I didn't have any issues with that, the biggest issue I was just constantly getting yelled and treated like nothing, you know, you do the right thing, you still get in trouble and I think one of the things I came to hate the most about it was mass punishment. When one guy messes up everyone gets punished and trying to keep people in line and in check within your platoon. But overall, I did, it was a lot more of a mental game than physical game. The physicalness of it was, they build you to that, to that standard. Interviewer: Yeah, okay and then how well did the other recruits respond to that, I mean were there people who wash out or get hurt? (11:11) Yeah you do some people that end up getting hurt and having to stay. Some people just decide they don't want to do it and almost that process is longer than going through boot camp. They tell you at the beginning the quickest way out of boot camp is you don't want to be there is to graduate, just to get through it and do it. You get guys that don't want to do it, the like we had one guy that just refused to do anything, and he ended up, I don't know what actually happened to him, they just took him away. But I mean they- they filter out and even ones that do struggle they don't- they don't let you fall. Like you'll, they'll keep you around unless you physically can't �do it, or you just mentally won't do it. But if, even if you're struggling with certain things, they help you and you'll- you'll graduate if you want to. Interviewer: Alright, yeah, I mean in- in the old days at least say Vietnam era and that kind of thing, there was a certain amount of physical violence that went along with it too. I mean the drill instructors officially didn't hit people, but they did, was that a thing of the past or was that still around? (12:11) Some of it was, I mean obviously on paper nowadays you can't lay your hands on a recruit, but I know that some instances where if they were being extremely insubordinate or just they were just doing it to cause trouble and just do what they wanted, they would- they would do it and they would sometimes get their hands thrown on you but most of the time it was just a guy spitting and screaming in your face. I mean the amount of times I was spit on in boot camp it was just, yeah. Or had dirt kicked in your face when getting ITEed, stuff like that so it was, I was, there wasn't much physical violence and even among the recruits either that when they would get mad at each other. I mean some people would get in each other's faces and- and get close to fights but there were never anything- anything too crazy. Interviewer: Now when you had the sort of mass punishment situation, I mean would the other recruitments kind of get on the guy who had screwed up or? Yeah I was a- I was a squad leader in boot camp for a little bit and they come and go very quickly, but one of my jobs was to make sure my squad was squared away for the next day and so the amount of times I would have to get my other team leaders and my squad up in the middle of the night to square away at one of our guys or two or guys that didn't get their stuff done and wanted to go to sleep, and didn't think anything of it because they were gonna in trouble regardless but then we all didn't want to get in trouble the next day for it. So, we would stay up whether it's like, you know tightening pack straps or taping ‘em down, stuff like that, you getget crucified for, we would- we would end up having to do it and so we tried to help ‘em along but it was honestly it was just they either got it or they didn't and some people just, they slipped through the cracks and just never again. They just they- they go through boot camp just messing up the entire time, but drill instructors can't fail them I mean for just messing up. I mean they get the program eventually, but they were not the- the most stellar Marines coming out of boot camps sometimes. (13:52) Interviewer: Okay now did you understand the logic, did you realize they were trying to break you down and build you up again, or do you just figure that out after the fact? I think partially both cause we, cause when I was part of the delayed Entry Program beforehand for quite a while and that whole thing is geared towards getting you to boot camp, getting you ready, the knowledge base, and all that stuff. And so, we had Marine, guys that grad- that wouldthat were in the- the dep with us that then would grad- graduate boot camp and come back and see us. And they would tell us stories about it and how- how to do it, they wouldn't tell us everything cause it’s you know also the experience of it. But I could see like the change in them and how they carried themselves and stuff so I kind of understood what it was, what the purpose was and just was a lot of anxiety and stress going through it that wasn't so much fun. Interviewer: Okay so you get through the first three months, now what happens to you? I actually got out at, or I graduated boot camp at a really good time, it was right before Christmas. And so they gave us, you get ten days of leave right afterwards and so it just worked out that the- the leave blocks for the Marine Corps at then so since you're technically like a �Marine you rate those leave blocks with the- the new year and Christmas. And so, ours got extended, I think I got extended like two weeks or something like that to be with my family and stuff but then January 3rd or 4th I flew back to California to Camp Pendleton and there I went to School of Infantry. (15:09) Interviewer: Okay and what was that like? That was hard, that was three months and that was- that was difficult, that was learning how tohow to truly become a grunt. I mean boot camp you get some taste of that by living in the field but the infantry or Infantry School is a lot different, the- the other MOSs that aren't combat related go through MCT for a month long and ours is three months and I would say major- about, probably ten weeks out of that, those twelve weeks is spent you live in the field. Interviewer: Okay. Two weeks is about classroom training and stuff like that and the rest is you’re on a range running different types of maneuvers or you're patrolling or you're setting a, you know learning different things that you need to become an Infantryman. And hiking all the time, everywhere you go and just, it teaches you how to- how to do the job of be an Infantry Marine and it sucks, and you deal with whatever you got to deal with. (16:04) Interviewer: Okay. But I would definitely take it over the East Coast. Interviewer: Okay lower humidity maybe. Yeah and not as many swamps or marshes you have to walk through, and I'd rather be dry than wet, and I'll take the- the desert heat and the- the swamp and humidity and sand fleas and stuff like that. Interviewer: Right, okay what- what kind of people were training you there? They were combat veterans, three of- three of my instructors all both have been to Iraq and Afghanistan. One was a Marine, was MARSOC, he was MARSOC at the time and came back and went- went back through, he got it's called the hiss list and it’s basically a list that pulls people around the Marine Corps to come be instructors, whether a drill instructor, recruiter, or combat instructor and he got pulled to do that. Interviewer: So, the acronym, he was a reservist basically who got called up or? (16:57) No so he was- he was MARSOC so what that, he was Special Forces in the Marine Corps. Interviewer: Okay. And then he got, came, got pulled down to that because he was injured and then he rehabilitated there and he, yeah, he told us a lot of stories. And I mean they were all combat veterans whichwhich helped a lot with- with painting the idea that you’re, if you're an Infantry Marine at some point in your career you're probably gonna be at war. And so they- they treat you and they- they make the scenarios as realistic as they can and they really make you understand that yeah you're sitting on a hilltop in the middle of California patrolling and you think it's, you know a fun time, but in reality you're training for what you might have to do in- in Afghanistan. And they would tell stories about guys I mean back in Iraq and stuff where they would get out of school theirtheir Infantry School and two months later they're in Iraq and driving a Humvee or you know patrolling or whatever they’re doing. So, it was, they tried to paint the scenarios realistic as possible and they were very good instructors for us. �Interviewer: Okay what was the kind of hardest or most challenging thing you had to do there? (17:55) I think adjusting to the way of life of living dirty and in the field. I- I very much enjoy a hot shower every night and so having to- to clean yourself with baby wipes or you know eat MREs all the time was probably the hardest adjustment for me. The hikes hurt after a while just cause your body kind of breaks down but it's, it was definitely getting adjusted to what that life was like and what the next five years of my life where gonna be like because you know you are an Infantryman, you take pride in that and so as a Infantryman you train like one constantly and so understanding that living in the field was going to be my way of life for the next five years. Interviewer: Okay alright now do you get specialized schooling after the Infantry School? Yes, so I went from San Diego direct lab tours I got orders to Chesapeake, Virginia for basic security guard school. Which is not the same as what Embassy Guards go through, they go through a different school, this is for called 81 52 Security Force Marine. And that schooling was- was a lot of hands-on with pistols, we were issued pistols the M10 shotguns, semiautomatic shotguns. We had more extensive work with machine guns, 249 and 240, and then we had work through basic procedures of how to run guard mount, how to set up, you know your, line up your Marines for guard. Make sure they have all their gear, you know go through all the procedures, all that stuff. How to run a fixed site security, how to basically how to function as a security officer and- and understand that you're gonna be entrusted with a lot of power because you're gonna be alone most of the time when you're on post. (19:40) Interviewer: Okay was there much classroom for this or was it… It was a lot of classrooms- a lot of classroom, a lot of range time, and a lot of physical training because there was a lot of classroom time, they- they would- they would whoop us and- and ourour, we’d PT in the morning and then we would have classroom in the afternoon or in the late morning and afternoon. And the mornings were always it was- it was rough stuff. It was- it was bear crawls with buddies on your back, I mean it was just, it was constant- constant PT and stuff like that to keep you in shape. Interviewer: And was this facility just a Marine facility? Where there Navy people there too? No, it was an actual Navy base, I think it was a communications base but there were Navy sailors that were there and stuff. It wasn't a very big base there and then our school was just there, we literally just had the schoolhouse, the barracks there, and then they had the ranges and stuff like that, and that was all that we had there for our- our disposal. (20:37) Interviewer: And how many of you were going through that program at that time? There were quite a lot, I was actually in holding for three months to get into training there. Interviewer: Okay. I graduated from SOI in March and I didn't get to training for security guard school until about end of May/ June/ Ju- or June about that. And I was stuck there just waiting and you're just, the hardest part was kind of waiting for your time to come and maintain your kind of physical training because they can't watch everyone the entire time. So, some guys kind of lose their- lose their edge after coming from entry school and aren't- aren't in too hot of shape, stuff like that, or don't keep up on their knowledge. �Interviewer: So how did you spend your time while you were holding? Sometimes you would- you would try to avoid your higher-ups and hide out and relax for the day or they would- they would do like Brailler classes with us called kind of like hip-pocket classes, really just a Marine that has been in for a while will take a lot of the newer- newer guys and- and go over things that you- you’ve already know but you need to perfect them over time and you need to know them, whether it's weapons handling or how to do some of the training you're about to do. They would give us some of the manuals and stuff like that that you're gonna need to know to graduate and so some guys tried to hide out all the time and or you just do what they call working parties where you're helping out around the base whether you're cleaning the barracks or the bathrooms stuff like that, so. (21:57) Interviewer: Okay and could you get off base? We could on the weekends, but you only had an extended amount of time you were allowed to be gone and then you had to be back at base. We had formations every Friday afternoon and then Sunday night there would be a formation that you had to be that. Interviewer: Okay. So… Interviewer: And if you go off base, how do people in the community treat Sailors and Marines? Well we were, yeah Virginia that portion of the area, of Virginia, Chesapeake and then up to like Norfolk is all- all Military. It's the whole area is just one giant Navy base, so a lot of people treat everyone pretty much with respect there. I don't think the civilians in the surrounding area really, really enjoyed the Military because they usually destroy stuff, or you know are kind of mean to everyone or think they’re the best. But overall, I mean the, I would say the majority of the people that live in that area are all Military themselves so they- they kind of know how the games played with- with dealing with everyone. But I mean you always get the- the sleazy car salesman trying to sell you a car, stuff like that or the mall trying to sell you crap you don't need, trying to appeal to you, but next point in the Military something new, nothing new. Interviewer: Yeah, so they- they could look at you coming down the street… Oh yeah. Interviewer: …with your hair cut and they know who you were. Yep, they know exactly what you're doing. There's been a million guys before you. Interviewer: Alright so then when do you actually finish the school itself then? (23:21) I finished in July right before, yeah right before my birthday. Interviewer: Okay now what year? Oh 2014. Interviewer: ‘14 okay, yeah so you've been in about, yeah about nine months at that point or ten. Okay, alright so you do that and now what happens to you? After graduation my- my next unit platoon Sergeant was actually at our graduation and Charlie Company and Alpha Company FAST were housed together in the middle of Norfolk at a place called Camp Allen and I think it's condemned now, gone. Condemned when we were there, but anyways so he was there, and he loaded the guys that were picked for- for FAST for those two units. Load up on a bus and we went there and we did our started our in-dock process where we process all our paperwork, we do our audit of where what unit we're with now and all that kind of stuff, got issued our rooms, and then the next following days’ we got issued our gear from �there, stuff like that. And then my unit was- was rebuilding essentially my- my platoon and so they were, they just gotten the- the platoons started, and a few NCOs and they were still kind of gathering the ‘us’ from- from the training house. Interviewer: Now explain what FAST is. (24:30) FAST, yeah stands for Fleet Anti-terrorism Security Team and it was created in the ‘80’s and their job was to for deploy to- to strategic locations to reinforce embassies. So, my area for Alpha was Rota, Spain and our area of operation was Europe and Africa. Charlie Company went to Bahrain and they were kind of the- the Central Asian step there in the Middle East and then we had a company in Japan, and they did Asia. Interviewer: Okay now you were talking, your- your company - is rebuilding. Why are they rebuilding? It would, our company wasn’t rebuilding, it was just our platoon, sorry. Interviewer: Okay. Just our platoon was rebuilding and so how it works is the platoons rotate out through Spain and there's two platoons that, at Spain at all times, but there's like four or five platoons back in Norfolk. And they constantly are in training and they're constantly rotating out and moving around, and so our unit just got done. The guys that just finished their deployment where now on PCSing to their- their infantry units. So, we were replacing them and so the unit at that time barely existed, there was maybe just a handful of us that were in it and so over the next few months, I got there in July and September is when our training started, really kicked off. So, for those two months we would PT with NCOs, get to know our NCOs and they would kind of train us on what we’re gonna need to know soon, but during that entire time we were getting guys that were behind in training that I knew, that- that eventually caught up to me, or guys that were from the- the schoolhouse that were in classes behind me that got- that got orders to our unit. And so, we were constantly getting influx of guys and then by September we had our- our platoon of about thirty, thirty-five guys that were gonna be our- our, that was gonna be our family for the next two years. (26:17) Interviewer: Okay now when you're training with- with this group, what are you doing with them that's different from what you've had already? This train was much more specialized, once we started in September we immediately went to non-lethal course, which was riot control techniques to work with riot shields, you work with non-lethal ammunition, from shotguns, M203s, all that, and then they also used the- the spike ball grenades which are not fun when they get thrown at you. And on top of that we also got O.C. sprayed which is the most painful experience I’ve ever had in my life. After that we went to Advanced Urban Combat School back in Chesapeake, Virginia which is where I was at and there, we shot more rounds of my entire Marine Corps career than I ever have. The entire week from sunup to sundown we got up at like 4:00 in the morning to be at the range by the time the sun came up and we didn't stop shooting until the sun went down and you shot all day, all the time. It was just constant rotations of close quarters shooting and then you did house clearing and then we did live- live ammunition house training and stuff like that which really helped kind of build a lot of cohesion in the unit and when and it's very nice when everyone's on the same page and understandinging and knows what's going on to make it look fancy. After that, beforehand I was- I was very good at PT and I was really good with my knowledge, I was selected before that to go to Des-A Marksman School and there were only four of us out of our platoon that got �selected to go to that. And that was directly after Advanced Urban Combat School in November. My unit was in the field training and we went to Des-A Marchman School in Dam Neck, Virginia which is a- a Special Forces like Navy SEAL base there. And we trained, we were trained there under a bunch of snipers that had served in Afghanistan and Iraq and they, it wasn't, you weren't a sniper and they make sure you knew you weren't a sniper, but it was only a month long. I think snipers’ course is like- is like six or seven months long, but it was only a month long, but they trained you like you're a sniper. They taught us how to- how to make ghillie suits, how to stalk, how to precision style shoot, how to be able to shoot you know with the wind, you know stuff like that, how to make adjustments like that. And we shot up to about a thousand yards away and our- our weapon system was the M110 SASS which is a semi-automatic scout sniper rifle that- that the scout snipers used, but you ruck ran everywhere with a pack on your back, you learned how to, you know crawl on the beach, water, all that stuff, through the swamps, and all that, that's probably the best course I ever went through with the Marine Corps. And then after that once I was a DM, that's when my weapon system changed to that in the actual unit itself, I would carry an- an M4 with me, but I would also have the M110 with me. (29:10) Interviewer: You said you were a DM? Yes. Interviewer: That's a beta marksman? Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Yes. Interviewer: Alright and now by the time you get through all of that schooling, what date roughly are we at? Through that so, non-lethal was September and then Advance Urban Combat was October and then Des-A Marksman School was November. And so, November of 2014 yeah it was right after Thanksgiving, or right before Thanksgiving we finished and then directly after that is when we were getting ready for our four-month deployment to Cuba, so. Interviewer: Okay, alright do you get off for the holidays in there anywhere? We did, we got off for Thanksgiving. I got to go home for- for the allotted time they gave us and they accompanied- they accompanied the, I think it's a 96 you get with the- with our pre deployment leave for that and so they gave us I think only a week off so, I got to go home for a week and get ready for my- my first deployment. Interviewer: Alright so Cuba, how do you get down to Cuba? We chartered straight from, there's an airbase that's right next to Norfolk there, we got on a- on a plane there and flew straight to Gitmo, there's a landing strip on the other half of the- the… Interviewer: Guantanamo. Guantanamo Bay, yeah. Interviewer: Civilians, yes okay. (30:30) On the other side there and yeah, we got on a ship once and then we got on a little boat there that ferried us to the- the main side of the base. Interviewer: Alright and what's your first impression of Guantanamo? It was hot and I didn't realize it was, there were two sides of the bay, I thought we only owned half of it, but it was- it was a lot more kind of built up than I thought it was. I thought it was kind of, there wasn't gonna be much there, but I mean there was a whole giant massage [mass of �buildings, not massage parlors] in there, bars, everything. I mean there was a lot on that base, but other than that I just noticed it was really hot and it was nice because it was winter back in Virginia and it was kind of cold and rainy, so I enjoyed the- the weather. Interviewer: And so what do you actually do while you're at Guantanamo? Our job there was to guard the perimeter fence line, part of our basic security guard training was to be able to stand post and we guarded the- the fence line between the Cubans and- and the base itself and these massive towers they had, I mean my tower’s probably- probably a hundred, almost 200 feet up in the air on a bluff. And it would, basically your job was to track and you kept a log book, you kept track of the Cuban’s movement, stuff like that, and then you also were lookout for Cuban asylum seekers that would try and cross through the- the fence line. Usually they try to cross around the ocean or through the bay, so and that was basically your primary mission with that. And when you weren't on post, you're on post for eight hours when you got off you were on what they call QRF, Quick Reaction Force and you were basically the- the Quick Reaction Force for if we got a Cuban asylum seeker, you would drive out and you would have to go deal with that- that- that person at that time and we would run scenarios almost every time you run on it where one of our NCOs would probably end up being the Cuban asylum seeker and you have to tackle him or yeah trying to fight grown men like that is, grown Marines is not the same as you’ve had to do with some starved Cuban. (32:27) Interviewer: Why- why would you have to tackle an asylum seeker? They- they, well they want us to- to- to search them and stuff like that and so for whatever reason the scenarios they would paint us were they were trying to fight us, or they were trying to be dangerous, and they would be swinging logs, or throwing rocks at us, or trying to run away and so oftentimes when we were doing these drills we would just end up tackling the guy into the ground. Interviewer: Alright was there ever anything that wasn't a drill? We didn't always, now we didn't have anything really crazy happen. They had at one time, it wasn't a quite a BMP, it was like a Soviet-style gunboat truck thing that they had driving at one point and that caused an alarm for the base because they drove that right next to the- the- the fence line, but other than that we didn't have any asylum seekers while we were down there, we were only down there for four months. Interviewer: Okay now were there a Cuban military personnel on the other side looking at you? (33:24) Yep, they, the Cubans just like, I don't know who built the towers first, but the towers usually look directly in front of each other. And yet big ole binoculars on posts that you would look at ‘em all day and they would look right back at you and you knew when their chow trucks came and brought them food every day, and they knew when ours came, and they probably logged it just like we did so, it's very structured. Interviewer: Alright and then did you ever get sent anyplace else during those four months or were you just there the whole time? We were there the whole time, there was a another platoon that was down there with us and they would, we would rotate on- on post, so one week we would be on post and we would be doing everything, running the base, and then the- the next week the other unit would do and then that week you're not doing post, you're training in the field, so. �Interviewer: Is there field training at Guantanamo? There's a little bit, there's some abandoned buildings we would use and then you would just do, you’d do other training like rifle range, stuff like that, and PT a lot- a lot and stuff like that and then you would, you’d get one or two weekends off a month, so every time you were off you got the weekend off after that and so those were times where I got to like spearfishing, and you got to go swimming, and stuff like that, and then they had you know pools and gym and stuff like that you could go to. And if you could drink which most of us couldn’t because we were 19 at the time there were bars there that you could go to. Interviewer: Alright what did you think of the leadership in your company? I really liked my- my leadership, we actually went, I liked my leadership when we left Cuba, when we first got there we went through a platoon- a platoon sergeant who had to- who had to deal with some hazing incidences and tried to- to cover it up in our platoon. And he ended up getting caught by our- our captain, we don't have- we didn't have lieutenants at the time, we had captains for us which is a little bit different from the rest of the- the Marine Corps. (35:18) Interviewer: So, the- the platoon was commanded by a captain? Yeah and I think they do that because you go to embassies if you get deployed and so they kind of want someone that has a little more expertise. Interviewer: Right. And experience and time and grade there, versus a fresh lieutenant and so and then you generally have a pretty senior staff sergeant which is what ours was at the time. But he tried covering up an all- a hazing allegation within the platoon and he, yeah, he- he disappeared really quickly. And then we had another guy come in who was gonna deploy with us to Spain. Interviewer: Okay was hazing an issue in the Marine Corps at that point? Yeah I would say a lot, our- our NCOs would- would, some would were worse than others, I mean some were just kind of sadistic with it and- and they ended up getting in trouble too when the- the whole hammer came down and they ended up going away too and getting kicked out of the Marine Corps. But there were small things where you just had to do a lot of PT or stuff like that, it was kind of almost a little bit of kind of boot camp thing with it. But some of them werewere like they would hit- they would hit guys, or one instance was these guys were drunk and they smashed these bottles in front of this guy's room and then woke him up and made him clean it up and then dumped a beer all over his rack where he- where he sleeps and it was just- it was just stupid stuff like that that it’s just, you just don't get why people do it, it’s just kind of a power thing I guess. So, they- they went away but after that we really didn't have any hazing, I think the other NCOs that were in our platoon learned really quickly that if- if, everyone's got to be on the same page, you know, so. (36:50) Interviewer: Okay anything else about the stay in Guantanamo that kind of stands out for? We had to search for a dead guy at one point, it was in the news that the base commander therethere I guess was sleeping with a contractor’s wife there and then he ended up dead floating in the Guam- in Guantanamo Bay. And so that was, we had to the search for him at one point when we were on liberty which was not fun because we all got called back and had to go literally just walk through the countryside of Guantanamo Bay looking for this guy, that we didn't know who he was and stuff. But other than it was- it was pretty uneventful, it was actually pretty nice, it was, a lot of time you got to work on your discipline and you were alone in a- in a box for eight hours a day with a loaded pistol and loaded rifle and as a 19 year old you're expected not to �shoot, you know at another foreign person that’s at- at an international border and so it train- it made us become very disciplined in what we did. (37:50) Interviewer: Because you have to stay alert at that point? Yeah- yup and we were there 24 hours a day and so I was- I was the day shift so I actually got the better shift, which was nice because the weather was nice but at night, I mean it's- it's pitch black. I mean you have a red light up there that you can use but you're alone in the dark for eight hours, so. Interviewer: Alright, did you get false alarms? No, not really the only thing that would happen was someone would- would call out a vehicle that- that, you had like a list of vehicles that were kind of like higher alert if you saw them on the Cuban side and some guys would call out what they thought they would, what they think they saw and everyone would kind of scramble and figure out what's going on and then NCO or a captain would come out and look at it and stuff like that, so. Interviewer: Alright okay so four months there and is Rota, Spain the next stop? Yes, we got back in March and then directly after that we started our- our training again for, we did like VIP training with Humvees which is an experience in itself trying to, basically you have to guard the van with these Humvees but it's, it was- it was kind of like you have to practice going from like an embassy to where the- the- the ambassador would live, maybe out in town or something like that in the city. So, you have to protect both locations, so we had to train to transport him there while also protecting his- his residence there and also protecting the base itself, or the embassy itself there. So, we had a lot of training with that, a lot of training with FIX X security and then we went to our evaluations where we were evaluated both by our company and then the regimental level and those ones were big exercises where they had role players and everything like that and all- all every type of scenario; riot scenario, sniper scenario for the designated marksman's, drones scenarios, I mean everything. All these scenarios preparing you and then- then you pass and then- then you get your- your stuff ready and you- you head to Spain. (39:42) Interviewer: Okay do you fly there, or do they put you on a boat? We flew charter through Virginia the same- same airstrip we took off from Cuba and then we landed in Rota, Spain two or three in the morning, so. Interviewer: Okay and what was the duty there like? It was really relaxed, you have two platoons there and just like in Cuba you have one that's on call and then you have one that is training and were doing things for- for liberty and it was- it was a very relaxing deployment, it was we, oh I got put on- on alert for the Paris bombings in 2015. That was the only time we ever got put on alert, the rest of the time there were never ever any times, and we paid attention to- to like the news and stuff like that to- to check out what was going on in- in our areas. But overall we trained a lot and we trained just infantry tactics because we knew after that deployment, our NCOs knew after our, after that deployment, that we would all be going to infantry units and by that time you're an NCO pretty much by the end of your time in that unit because you get extra points being in security forces to be promoted and so you know that you're probably going to be a team leader or a squad leader when you get to infantry and so if you don't know your stuff, your lance corporal is gonna be in charge of a corporal in the infantry and that's not a good look and it makes you look bad if you're not leading Marines as an NCO. So, we spent a lot of time there working on land nav, working on patrolling, working on �everything you, the in- the basics of the infantry because the last year and a half you haven't been training with those, you’ve been training with, oh I need to go to a certain area I'm gonna put up C, you know C wire and- and barbed wire and I'm gonna defend this perimeter and that's what you've been trained to do. But yes, Spain was a lot of a- lot of drinking, I played rugby there on the- on the Navy team against Spanish leagues and stuff like that and met a lot of Navy sailors there, became good friends with them and yeah it was a very lowkey… (41:39) Interviewer: Now here you could go off base, like Guantanamo I guess you couldn't really go off base. Yes, yeah here we could, you could actually put in special liberty if you were trusted enough to go and you can actually take leave at times when you're off rotation, to go to places around Europe if you wanted to. No one really did, mainly because they, I don’t think we really initially had all the money to do so, or really wanted to, but guys yeah, every, I mean Thursday nights people would go out and get drunk on the town. I mean it was a, if you’re on, if you're not on rotation or on call then you can essentially do what you want as long as your- you have a curfew. Interviewer: Okay but there is- there is a town there, it’s not just a base. Yes, yeah Rota, Spain's a- a very big beach town for the Spaniards and they, we were there in the summer and that place is nuts in the summer but- but by the time when we left in November it was like a ghost town usually. And so, but yeah it was- it was a big town and I mean you have the Strait of Gibraltar right there, I can, I saw the bridges and stuff there. I would- I would, we would travel around a little bit too with the- the- the Navy team when they would go play rugby and stuff so I got to see a little bit of southern Spain but other than that people just- just drank and hung out and played video games, sports, stuff like that so. (42:47) Interviewer: Alright okay and then so now you go- you go back home again and then start preparing for the next deployment. Yep, right at the end of Spain is when everyone got orders of where they were going and originally I was supposed to go to 1/7 out in Twenty- Twentynine Palms, California but I wanted to stay on the east coast and I had a buddy of mine that had family in- in California and really wanted to go back there and he got stuck with East Coast and so since we were essentially on paper the same Marines, your- you have the ability to switch orders. And so we- we were able to do that and I got orders, we got back in November and I didn't leave for my next unit until about March, yeah and we got, you saved up our leave and you get PCS leave and you can take up to a month off which I took I think three weeks off and I was home for three weeks before I went to my next unit. Interviewer: Okay but in the meantime did you spend time on another base or? Nope we were back home or back in Norfolk and we would help out, train the next units by like playing- playing as role players, stuff like that, but the majority of time was you were just, you were just getting ready for your next unit, you were doing what you needed to do personally to get yourself ready. Interviewer: Alright, okay and so what- what unit do you join then? I ended up going to 1st battalion, 2nd Marines in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. Interviewer: Okay and when you come into that unit where they also in the process of rebuilding and rotating people in and out? (44:17) �They were- they were- they were really low on NCOs at the time when I first got there. I think they were only probably like eight of us in the entire, our entire company and there's three platoons so there's not many of us for each platoon. And they were still getting guys that were fresh out of Infantry School that went straight to the infantry and they were getting guys and it was our job to take them and help process them into the unit and- and start kind of training them and building our- our camaraderie and stuff with them and understanding, and you know the guys that you're gonna end up deploying there in about a year and a half. And you get same thing as the last unit, you get patrolling gear issued and you go through your audit and all that stuff and you get everything set up so you're ready to- to be in the unit and that took, I think it took us about two months to get all the- the guys we needed for our unit. Interviewer: Okay and are your training together in the meantime? Yeah we would go on field ops, we would go do patrolling on the- the North Carolina Forest which is whole ‘nother beast, and we would do, they were, they had that whole training regimen set up for us by the division that you have standards you have to meet as an infantry unit before you can deploy and so it's very, very structured and it- it wasn't as intense as- as FAST because FAST is such a short rotation, where like every month you're doing some, here you would haveyou would have some weeks off where you'd have a medical stand down where everyone has to get the shots, or to go to dental, or you know whatever, or like an admin standdown where you getting everything set up for training stuff like that. Which you didn't have very often in- in FAST but you were training majority of the time, every- every other week, or every two weeks you were going to the field and doing a range of some kind, or working on marksmanship, or whatever tactic you were working on at the time. (45:58) Interviewer: Okay what proportion of the unit had actually gone into a combat zone before? When I got there, there was only the platoon sergeants, the gunnies, and the first Sarge and the NCO, all that higher echelon officers and staff, NCOs there had all been to like Iraq and Afghanistan and then there were a few NCOs but the majority of the unit was just like me theythey joined after 2013 and they- they were as fresh as I was when it came to going to a combat zone. Interviewer: Okay alright and now at what point do you find out where you're going? We knew first, you know kind of, almost kind of the- the deployment prior knows where the next deployment’s going and so at first they were the, it's called the Black Sea rotation and it's where you have, your unit goes to, we had one unit, one company that went to Norway, one company goes to Romania, and then the other one goes to you Africa. And my unit was supposed to go to Africa or my company was and we had trained all year- all year long in 2016 and we were going through our culmination event just like in FAST where you get evaluated at a place where it's called Combined Arms out in Cal- Twentynine Palms, California. And it's like a- like a six to eight-week month exercise where you're working with tanks, and tracks, mortars, artillery, everything, even close air support and stuff like that. And right at the end of that was when General Kneller, our commander at the time got the word that they wanted to send 300 Marines back to Afghanistan to help trai- help train and advise. And we were the- the unit that was the most ready and I guess it was kind of cliché that 1/2was the last combat unit in Afghanistan in 2014 when the Marines left, and so it was kind of I guess cliché to be the first, you know, 1/2’s the first unit back to do any type of Marine operations there. (47:53) �Interviewer: So, we had army personnel over there… Yes. Interviewer: …still, but not Marines. Yep- yep- yep, the Army ran everything along with the- the OTAs and Rangers ran everything there as well. So, we, but the rest of our unit was just our company that was going, Bravo Company and Alpha Company of our unit were still going to Norway and Romania. Just that Romanian forces getting broken in half to help cover Africa as well. Interviewer: Okay. And as soon as we found out we were going there, everyone was trying to come to our unit. Everyone in the Marine Corps was trying to come because we were the first Marine Corps unit to go into comb- like at least go to a combat zone since 2014, unless you were MARSOC of some kind. And so, you had infantry guys from all over trying to- trying to get orders to come to our unit because in the infantry it's kind of a- a pride thing, you want to go do your job and so youyou want to go to war. Interviewer: So, you have morale at a high enough level you've got people who willing to go and take the dangerous assignments. Oh yeah, it's, I would say morale in the Marine Corps is at least in the infantry, you- you really aren’t anything until you've been to comb- until you've been to combat in the infantry. And so, you get guys that are- that are straight infantry men that are young and hungry and they want, I mean I- I remember one of the- the most ridiculous things in boot camp, me and my buddies were asking each other like you know, “why- why'd you join?” And I was like, “oh you know, kind of joined for college, stuff like that.” And this guys like, just straight up told me, was like “I just want to kill people.” And I was like, “joined a good place to do it. Glad you're doing it here and not the- not on the streets or anything like that,” but he, that's what he wanted, he wanted to be a machine gunner in- in the Marine Corps and do that and- and so you had guys like that, allall of our unit that they- they were all gung-ho about it, they wanted to go and they're excited to go and they were, you know I remember my- my platoon Sarge, he was in Marjah in 2010 and the push for Afghanistan. I remember him pulling out cigars and we were all smoke cigars because we found out we were going to Afghanistan and that was kind of like the- the best thing that could happen for us at that time, so. (49:47) Interviewer: Okay now did, what did they do to prepare you to go to Afghanistan? Right afterwards we got, we had to like, they kind of like described our mission, kind of got centralized for us, you know. At first, we were like, we didn't really know exactly what we were gonna go to do there. We didn’t know if we were doing combat operations, they only told us we were taking our company so we kind of had a hint that it wasn't gonna be like heavy combat operations cause you would take the entire battalion if you were gonna do something like that. And then it came down that we were doing, then we were gonna be security for an adviser package that was going there and so they immediately started shifting that towards kind of what I did in- in security forces which was you're security, you’re guarding, and you have to, you run post, you run the base, you have to guard personnel, and so they did rely, there was a lot of our security force guys were in my unit with me and they relied heavily on us to help train and kind of describe what you're going to have to do as a security Marine. And so we did big oper- we did a lot of ranges and- and fixed size security stock type of stuff, kind of stuff that we did in- in security forces and then we also trained with the advisor group a lot that was gonna be with us and they were all, I don't want to say there was any, well there might, there was probably only �two lieutenants and the rest of it was either a captain, major, lieutenant colonel, colonel, Master Sergeant, gunnie, all- all very high ranking personnel that have a lot of experience in differentdifferent jobs in the Marine Corps, and they- they were all good people and we trained with them extensively beforehand. We did big operations in- in Camp Lejeune where we would take over a very, an area like the base we were gonna be taking over from the Army and- and running in, running operations, going through different scenarios, like an IED or a V bid trying to blow up, or- or entry control point, or sniper, stuff like that so. (51:34) Interviewer: Okay so how long did you spend training before you went? We got the word in November and then we left in April, so we had only about four months to train. Interviewer: Okay. But we- we still had the basics down, we- we had gone through ITR or Combined Arms and we had done all the training in the year prior, the training regimen that- that infantry has to go through. So, they knew all the basic- the basics it was just getting that kind of security mentality, you know you're not going to Afghanistan to hunt down the Taliban, you're going there to make sure the Taliban can't touch these advisors that are trying to help out so, and then we’d had extensive training with- with like green-on-blue attacks, you know a Afghan Taliban member infiltrating the Afghan Army, getting to the base, and then getting a weapon and trying to- to kill one of us, or- or another coalition member there. And so, we had a lot of training, that was our biggest threat in Afghanistan was that happening and the base we were, when we went to Leatherneck, I can save that story for when we get there. Interviewer: Okay, alright so you're doing this, so now is it 2015 that you go over? (52:38) Oh no this is 2016 with the training. Interviewer: Oh 2016, okay yeah. And then 2017, April 2017 is when we left. Interviewer: Alright. I was part of the advon package that was sent before our unit got there. Interviewer: Okay so you're an advanced party? Yes. Interviewer: Essentially, okay now how- what's the process for getting you out there? We flew, my unit, my guy, since we were the advanced party, we took a different route- a little bit different than they did. We went to, we drove to Washington DC and we flew out of DC to Germany and then Germany to Incirlik, Turkey, or the big- the big Air Force Base in Turkey. Interviewer: Yeah, Incirlik or… Incirlik, I don't how to say it but in southern Turkey there and then Turkey to Kuwait and then we spent about two weeks in Kuwait, just kind of getting acclimated to the desert and kind of finalizing everything with your gear and stuff like that and figuring out the timeline. And then we flew to Kabul, Afghanistan in Kandahar and we stayed a day there at the Kandahar Air Base and then from there we got- we got in Chinook helicopters and flew to Leatherneck in Helmand Province. Interviewer: Okay and describe Leatherneck as a base. It was really big and it was like a ghost town because the Afghans when they took it over they didn't upkeep the maintenance of it because they don't know how to and so you have these giant tents everywhere with just giant holes in them because the Afghans ripped into them to see what �was inside of it not knowing that they were like thousand dollar tents that were actually good for keeping them safe in the desert. But they, it was just, it was really rundown except for the portion that we controlled and then to our north about a half mile away there was an ODA base called Antonek that was just north of us, that an ODA team was embedded there with training, with the goal of training Special Forces type of infantry unit for the Afghans to have. And so, when we flew in it was, I didn't realize how small our portion of the base was. It was only about 500 byby 400 meters that our base was actually a part, that we controlled. The rest of it was all Afghan and they had their own checkpoints and everything around the entire base and they ran the security into the base as well. But we also had our own security to our portion of the base as well with cameras everywhere and stuff like that, so. (54:57) Interviewer: Okay and so what are the first couple days like there? First couple days were kind of getting acclimated to it. They- they took us around and showed us where everything was, they showed us where like the- the indirect fire bunkers were you know, this is the- the drill if you know we- we're getting over ran or VBID, it's the- it's the ECPs. They would go through the kind of those procedures, show you where everything was, the gym, chow hall, and kind of what the daily routine was, and then after about two days we kind of our- ourour highest-ranking, our Gunny was with us and he was starting to figure out, okay what platoon is going to take over which portion of the base, which one is gonna be base defense, which one is gonna be flight line security, which one is gonna be you know, the advising security and- and all these things. And figuring out that and then once he figured out where everyone was gonna go then he had leadership from each platoon that would then go talk to the Army and work with the Army and figure out how they run operations so that way when our unit got there we can immediately get them- get them acclimated, show them, kind of give ‘em a day or two to get- get used to everything and then you start doing the, what they call the RIP which is where you're sitting alongside the Army guy doing the same job you're gonna be doing for the next six months, so. Interviewer: Okay alright how long does it take for the rest of the unit to show up? I think we were only there for about four or five days when they finally got there and they- they came in on the flight line on a- on a giant C4 plane and they, yeah they loaded them all and then they came and- and it was immediately just got ‘em their sleeping quarters and then show them where everything is, they literally had a day or two to kinda acclimate and get used to everything and then we immediately started getting to our Army counterparts that we were gonna be working with for the next week to- to conduct this RIP, to- to- to change roles with them. (56:50) Interviewer: Okay and then how does that play out? That played out well, some of the Army was not very good, it would, it was an artillery unit that was guarding the base. Interviewer: Okay. It was not an infantry unit, it was- it was weird, and they had females there and some of them did not have the same mindset we did. We were all about like anything could happen at any time, they have obviously gotten a little complacent and kind of knew how things ran. I remember being outside, we always had to wear gear when we left the base, our full body armor and helmet and there was a helicopter pad next to the Base Antonek and a month prior an Afghan Army soldier that was actually Taliban took a machine gun and shot a bunch of Special Forces guys over there and they, none of them died thankfully but we saw the guard post where that guy was �at and this Army woman was just hanging out outside with no gear on, calling in this helicopter, and it was just kind of like a mind blown for me, I was like that's where the guy shot at everyone and you're sitting out here with nothing on, acting like nothing's wrong, and we're not in Afghanistan in Helmand Province, you're acting like we're you know in California right now. And so that was a little odd to see how they do things and we kind of changed the procedures up that we didn't like that the Army did that we thought we could improve, but overall went well with them they taught us everything that they had learned over the- the previous time that they were there, and they- they made a lot of improvements to the base and stuff like that but. (58:17) Interviewer: Okay and were you staying on the base while you're training, or do you go off base for anything? We would go off base, like we had one unit, one platoon was Flight Line Security and so they would go secure the flight line which would bring in supplies, and all that stuff and then my- my platoon at first was base defense and so we ran the helipad that was next to our- our base where we would get supplies and then personnel would come as well. And so we had to train securing that LZ and- and making sure the Afghans stayed off it and you know that process for controlling the helicopters and stuff like that with our- with our base defense operations and working with the air officer and working with all these moving components at the same time while also then your- you guard the base at night. And- and just running through those procedures of- of you know if someone's trying to come over the wall, you know if you're being surrounded, or you’re being you know a V bid hits the wall and then they're rushing in fighters’, stuff like that, you go through all those type of procedures as well with them and train with them and how they do things. And it's actually kind of odd, we only did, we only guarded the- the posts at night, we had a contracting company called Triple Canopy that had Ugandan Nationals that were our base that would- that would sit in our posts during the daytime and they would sit up there with a 240 machine gun and their AKs and they were our base defense turning the day. (59:40) Interviewer: Okay what- what impression did you have of those people? I enjoyed them a lot, they were really- they were really fun guys, they were, a lot of them, as- as bad it may sound, they, a lot of them were child soldiers from Africa. And they- they just did this job for a living because they made good money and they- they, a lot of them had combat experience fighting Boko Haram in- in Africa and they were like a lot of, they remind me a lot of infantry Marines because they wanted to do a job where they got to just- they got to defend and kill people and that's what they had said, they would tell us some crazy stories and that's what they were and it was- it was wild to, I mean they were good friends with us and we really enjoyed them but it was interesting to have that. We also had cameras and stuff throughout the entire day so and they had handlers too that were America that would, that were in control of them basically. Interviewer: Yeah. That were usually retired Rangers or Special Forces and kind of got into contracting. And those guys were awesome to work with and they did really well there, but we would still be in charge of base defense… Interviewer: Right. Throughout the day, we would have an officer in there, and we had massive cameras all around the base that could see for miles around the base, as well as automated 50 caliber machine guns around the base as well. We had three of them, one at each ECP and then one on one of our �southern corners that were remote controlled from our base defense area it was almost like it was just a big joystick and it was just, it was a 50 caliber machine gun that you could shoot from there. (1:01:05) Interviewer: Alright, well this tape is just about up, so we're gonna pause here and reload and rewind. Okay so we've gotten to the point in your story now where you- you've made it to your piece of Camp Leatherneck out in Afghanistan and Helmand Province and your, the rest of your unit has arrived, what kind of just physical accommodations did you have on that base? We had a gym, we had Wi-Fi, and they had a small USO there that just had like video games and TVs and stuff that you could use, and then the chow hall which was actually really good. I don't know what company exactly they contracted for, but it was- it was pretty good food there, we weren’t MRE- eating MREs unless we- we left our portion, called Shore Ave, for any extended period of time. There's like a basketball court there and stuff like that but beyond that, we had our own repair shop there as well for our vehicles. Interviewer: So how many Marines were based there? Just you guys or? It was just us, where there were some Air Force personnel that ran some of the flights there, there was a- a few Navy and some Army that were there but I would say overall I think there was probably only 400, probably 400 actual US service members there, 300 which of were Marines and there was a, quite a few number, probably another 50 to- to 60 contract, like civilian contractors. (1:02:33) Interviewer: Okay and then your Ugandan friends? Yeah, then we had the Ugandans there as well that- that they were probable- there was a whole, there was a platoon of them that was probably like 25 strong and they rotated the posts day and night 24/7. Interviewer: Alright and- and what kind of, what did you sleep in? We slept in these big case pans that had, we didn't have AC for the first two and a half months and then we got these massive square ones that had really made the place cold which was nice but the first- first two and a half months there it was- it was hot. Interviewer: Okay well are you in- in- in tents or containers or? Yeah, they were- they were like half, like half a silo kind of thing that stuck out of the ground. It was a metal, little metal half a cylinder that would, that had a door on each end and- and some windows and that was it, with electricity, so. And then there were racks inside of there that everyone lived on and then squad leaders inside of that, and platoon leadership like myself, they had plywood walls set up for like rooms and so the squad leaders would share a room and then our platoon’s Sarge and our platoon commander got their own room. Interviewer: Okay so were you a squad leader at this point? I was. (1:03:45) Interviewer: Okay, alright so your middle management basically? Yeah, I- I make sure everything happens is my job. Interviewer: Okay now once the people, once the rest of the unit shows up and you got these higher ranking people who are supposed to be the actual advisors or whatever, once they get there, now what are they doing and what are you doing? So at first I was- I was base defense and so what my job was- was at night I was part, I would �help the watch officer and at times I was a watch officer and we ran the base. We, anyone coming in or out of the base we made sure the posts were good, I would tour the post to make sure they were awake and alert and you know the weapon was, you know in good order and they had all batteries they needed for all their optics at night and stuff like that. We would monitor the cameras in- in- in the area as well and as well as the- the caliber machine guns that were around the base and then we were also in charge of the flights that would come in. The- the air operator with us would tell us when these flights were coming in and it was our job to make sure our- our guys were ready to go provide security and- and get whatever necessary, whether it’s a forklift or a truck to carry any cargo coming off of it that we needed. And we did that for about- about three months, no about probably about two and a half months and then all the platoons rotated, except for one. Interviewer: So, during that first phase did you have any kind of problems develop? Or interesting situations? Yeah, since we weren't allowed to patrol a General actually came and talked to us and told us the worst thing that would happen would be a Marine gets killed here and I'm like, we're infantry like I understand that that would be bad but at the same time it's like everyone here is, we're doing a job and so we weren't allowed to patrol the area around Leatherneck that was dealt to the Afghans and the Afghans didn't do that. And so probably every two weeks we would take a rocket attack of some kind from the north, they would shoot off rockets and then we would send our drones to go find them and if we found them we would blow them up but usually we just find the- the site and they would just launch rockets the- the alarm would go off and you run to thethe bunker and essentially hope that the rocket doesn't fall on you. Most of the time it always hit the Afghans and would either kill some of them or they would wound some of them. But other than that we would constantly get the threats that they're trying to put, bring a dump truck with high explosives onto the base and blow us all up, or they're trying to blow a hole in the wall and flood fighters in from you know, Afghan youth, they’ve been infiltrated stuff like that. Which never came to fruition, as much as we really wanted it to kind of come to fruition, gave- gave us something to do. But on the other flipside of that if you didn't have a whole lot to do that meant you were usually doing your job pretty well. (1:06:26) Interviewer: Yeah. Security. Interviewer: Yeah so what impression did you have of the Afghan military to the extent that you observed them? The extent that I observed them to that point, was they were- they were not great, they were not very good. They were, didn't have much discipline and were really just doing this job because there was really nothing else to do in the country. Some had some pride I could tell but a lot of them were just walk around and fling the riffle wherever or not even wear body armor of any kind when on, you know when- when controlling a checkpoint or something like that. And they were just, they just weren't very disciplined, and I mean they didn't have obviously the same type of training that we did. But it was, or just they didn't really seem like they wanted to be there. (1:07:11) Interviewer: Yeah, okay so the advisers you're guarding are they going out off the base and going to other places to work with the Afghans or? Yeah so on the base itself they had a- they had different types of schools set up with some of the Afghans or with our advisers, some were like mortarman, some were regular infantry guys, and �we- we ran some of their they’re called khandaqs, which is their units there, their infantry units, we run through them kind of like a- a sped-up boot camp in a sense. They would go through rifle training, how to use mortars, and different systems like that, and we would have units that would guard that area, some of our- one of our par- our sister unit platoons would guard them. And then they also had like logistics officers, and admin officers, and intelligence officers that they would go out to different portions around the base and would work with their counter- Afghan counter partners. Interviewer: Okay. Usually an officer and part of your job they called it Guardian Angel duty which is where you'reyou're guarding this- this officer that is protecting, you know is working with this- this- this other Afghan officer and your job is to make sure no one is trying to kill him or you know bust in the room with a gun to try and kill him, stuff like that. And I think- I, every day I mean I’d say we'd have almost 15 to 20 missions that would go out and different locations around the base, all over the base that would, some of them were carrying a- a lot of advisers, some of them would just be one or two advisors, stuff like that. (1:08:36) Interviewer: Okay, but a lot of that work is being done right there on the base because you've got all the Afghans right there. Yep, yes all the Afghans there, they have the infrastructure there that we left them, like maintenance base, stuff like that, and so that's, it's all there and so they would go around there and- and conduct those operations with them and- and work through them, try and work through the corruption that was there, or you know supply, stuff like that, so. Interviewer: Okay, so after the first two and a half months when you're doing base guard duty, what do you do after that? We rotated and how it worked was we had- we had four platoons, usually you only have three in a company, but we had four with some extra guys that we needed for the- for the mission. We rotated to Guardian Angel and then the Guardian Angel rotated to flightline security, and the flightline security rotated to base defense and then we had a, our fourth platoon was in Lashkargah which is the capital of Helmand Province at a police, small police base there with a group of advisers that would advise, that were advising the police and trying to maintain some kind of stability in- in the capital. And they were, they weren't too far away from us, it was probably like a 15-minute flight by helicopter. But Guardian Angel duty, we assume the roles and my personal job was I was a personal security detail to my colonel which his name’s Colonel Gross. I had another Marine with me and then his interpreter and he was the highest-ranking adviser to- to the general of the actual infantry unit that was at- at Leatherneck and he was a really good general and he really liked him a lot. And he was a- he was a really good non-corrupt general. Interviewer: Okay. That was trying to really fix Afghanistan and really try and make progress and- and he, I- I sat in because I was guarding him, a lot of their- their operation talks on doing different operations in the province, on pushing the Taliban out of certain districts to- to gain them back that we had once owned back in 2010 to 2014. (1:10:36) Interviewer: Okay alright now did they go out on any kind of- of operations with the Afghans or do they just stay on the base? We would just stay on the base sometimes we would go on, what- what is called Expeditionary �Adviser Package and basically what it was is, we sent a very small group of Marines, usually like 25 to 30 to specific locations to help out with either operations or help try and do what we were doing at Leatherneck which was fixing kind of the- the Khandaq, the- the infantry unit that was there. So, the big one that I went on was- was to Sangin Afghanistan and we were there for about a week, helping, I was guarding them but we were in a, right- right outside the riverbed there and we were on the base there trying to help fix basically this Khandaq that had been there for years and was just basically just decimated at this point. But we went other places around too like to Marjah, a place called Fiddler's Green in the middle of the province and just different areas where they would go to different districts and- and work on them. And then they also did run big operations to kick the Taliban out of certain districts and try and- try and hold them as best they could. (1:11:50) Interviewer: Alright did you have any sense yourself of how well things were going? Or if you were making any kind of progress? They did make a lot of progress; it was just the- the idea of whether or not in six to- to ten months whether they kept it. While we were there they conducted I mean like five or six operations where they kicked the Taliban out of certain districts like- like Nawa and- and Garmshir and all these other districts around us and- and that was relatively easy because now the Taliban had kind of figured out that, oh we just run away while the Americans are here, once that, it's just the Afghans and we can just kill them because they don't patrol, they don't have the discipline that the Americans have. And so they just wait till we leave or our presence isn't there as well and then they just go and attack ‘em again and so we accomplished a lot, I haven't heard a whole lot recently about what was kept but we did take a lot of districts there and did disrupt the- the flow of- of the fighting season by being there and- and helping them, in terms of like Sangin and Marjah I don't think we had much of an impact. When they saw us, they really were like happy to see us and I think they thought like it was gonna be like 2010-2011 again where we were bringing in thousands of Marines to systematically, you know take out the- the Taliban which we were not there to do. A lot of them were happy to see us but they were not happy with the fact that we brought maybe 20 or so guys. (1:13:20) Interviewer: Yeah. And not a whole lot of firepower with, other than drones and Apaches so. Interviewer: Okay so- so- so you did the base security, you did the Guardian Angel duty, and then did you rotate into other duties after that, or did you go back? No, we just switch, yeah we just switched back to base defense duty and we just rotated like that and it was- it was kind of a good mix. It got you, the- the base defense didn’t keep you on base the entire time so you get super complacent which was nice and then the Guardian Angel duty kind of kept you on your toes because you would be out with the Afghans and that's when really things would happen is if you were- if you were gonna be attacked it would have been when you were with an adviser and a Taliban member that disguised himself got a hold of a weapon somehow. Interviewer: Okay and did you unit have any incidents like that while you were there? No we got, we I mean we would constantly be getting intel from our- our human intelligence guys that were with us about them trying to do it and they would pick up- pick a little icon chatter which is the little- little telephones that they like to use there, about them trying to do it but we had- we had one big attack that wasn't us, but it was a base that was by Lashkargah where �it was four Af- Taliban put on just regular Afghan uniforms, walked onto an Afghan base andand blew up their mess hall and it- it killed like I think over 50 Afghan soldiers. And so I mean we knew it was a threat and- and I mean the- the March prior to us going there, I mean they had that attack on the- the base itself by Antonek where a soldier tried to kill the- the Special Forces guys there so we knew it was a threat, but we never really had any intimate issues with it. (1:14:57) Interviewer: Okay and did see much of the civilian population at all? Not really, there were none on base unless they worked for the government. When we were out in Sangin and Marjah we saw a little bit of the population and they would just go about their daily lives, I never interacted with them personally because we never left really the confines of our- our area there. But as far as I saw they went out- out daily life despite the fact that a war was still going on, I mean they would, women and children just walking around, walking with water, stuff like that. And they usually knew when to- when to hide when they heard gunfire and stuff like that coming off. Interviewer: Now when you were out there traveling around where IEDs a problem there or not? No, we flew in to everywhere we went and we didn't have, we had some vehicles with us that we would get from the Afghans they were like these little dingy Ford Ranger things that had no armor on them, that we would ride around in usually around there. And there were some stretches that they told us to avoid because the Afghans knew that there were IEDs on them, but the majority of it was we would be walking around on- on a actual Afghan base. So usually IIEDs weren't our big threat for us there because if they were there than someone else probably would have hit ‘em by now. Interviewer: Yeah, and you- you weren't doing road patrols and things like that? No, we weren't, yeah, we weren't- we weren't allowed to- to conventionally patrol like the Army was allowed to for whatever reason they were allowed to. To the south of us there's a base called Dwyer that they were at and we would get calls all the time about them hitting IEDs down there at our base defense and it was frustrating for some of us, it was like why does the Army get to patrol and we don't, we’re getting shot with rockets, they're not, it was just, it was an interesting political kind of concept. (1:16:40) Interviewer: Alright so how long was this total stay in Afghanistan then? April to October so about six/ seven months we were there. Interviewer: Alright, anything else stand out in your memory from that particular stay? When talking to some of the- the Afghan soldiers they would often, I mean they- they, a lot of them had learned English over time from- from us being there so long, they- they would ask about your family and I remember asking one guy about his family and he mentioned how when he's home, when- when he goes on leave and it's not fighting season he sees his brother there, his brother fights for the Taliban, but he fights for the Army. And when they're home, they're fine, they’re friends, you know they're brothers, but once fighting season kicks off his brother leaves to go fight and he is in the Army, and it was just an interesting complex almost, you know have a family where it's divided, that one fights for you know the Taliban and the other fights for the Army and you know, both fight against each other. Interviewer: Yeah. And it was interesting, it was also cool to have a lot of very high key figures come to our base, like we had General Dumfer come to our base, we had a German general that was in charge of all �of Operation Freedom’s Sentinel which was the operation that we were there with, that's the coalition force. And speaking with them it's kind of seeing their different points of view with Afghanistan and- and listening to the General and kind of see what the Afghan General there, what his actual, what he saw was the problem, he didn't see that the fight, he kinda, he understood that just pushing the Taliban out wouldn't work, you know just push ‘em out like this they were just always gonna come back. And he would always constantly complain a- about Pakistan and the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is very free-flowing and what he always complained about was- was how in- in Afg- in Pakistan there the- the called Mujas thethe clergy there. Interviewer: Mullahs. Rad- yeah, radicalize the- the youth there and then in fight season they’re, you know get- get their weapons and stuff and hop the border to Afghanistan to fight and then unless you are able to stop that then the war in Afghanistan is probably never gonna end. And it was just kind of an interesting insight into… Interviewer: Yeah. As much progress as you wanted to make, you kinda in the back of your mind are just, can only do so much. You know I did my job there and that was the best I could do, so. (1:18:52) Interviewer: Okay, alright now when you come back to the States from that kind of situation does the- the Marines they do anything to kind of help reorient you to being, you know back in- in this end of the world? Or coming off a deployment like that or they just bring you back and leave you to your own devices? No we- we had some formal training afterwards kind of, you know- you know if you needed treatment of some kind for mental issues, if you had ‘em, or PTSD issues, which I don't- I don't know any of my guy- my buddies that have any issues there, we didn’t get shot at that much there. But I mean they had resources, stuff like that, but afterwards you- you have about a- a few months where it's kind of you're winding down and- and at that point everyone is starting to leave, it's whether you- you know like for me exam- my example was like I'm- I'm getting out and so I, but I still had close to a year left. Interviewer: Yeah. At that point, a little bit less and so for me it was I can't go to another unit cause I don't have time to deploy again with another unit so I will be stay in this unit, but I won't deploy, but I will train, help train the next group of people that you know are gonna come through and stuff. And it's- it’s kind of an interesting mixture you constantly have in an infantry, you have the guys that are going to deploy and are training their new Marines, and then you have guys that are essentially waiting their time to get out. They'll help train and they'll do different things for the unit, but they help. They- they- they just essentially sit there and- and basically wait their time. And so, at that point once we got back everyone's just kind of figuring out okay am I gonna reenlist? You know, for like my- my platoon Sargeant and- and officer which have longer contracts and they’re obviously some of them were lifers, they were figuring out what unit they’re gonna go to next. And my o- and my- my lieutenant was, got orders to go be a- a platoon commander down at Parris Island and stuff like that. And so, you get guys, everyone's doing different things at this time, and old all you're also still getting, you're getting new- new- new Marines from Infantry School. Interviewer: Sure. �That you're gonna start, you gotta start building up and we trained them initially, we went on some ranges and some- some field ops with them but then eventually we started getting the NCOs that were gonna be going on the next deployment and stuff like that. And then essentially hand off the reins, being like here this is your platoon now, this is your squad now, you need to train with them because I'm leaving in eight months. Does me no good for them to get used to my leadership style and how I operate when I'm not going on the deployment with them, and so. Interviewer: Okay. Some of it’s just sitting around, I mean you kind of do your own thing and you- you do your own device which is nice too because it kind of lets you get to your transition. Interviewer: Okay. It kind of lets you set up things. (1:21:29) Interviewer: Now at some point in- in your- your time there you wind up in Ukraine, don't you? Yeah so that was back in Rota, Spain. Interviewer: Okay. We, part of an operation there was, what was it called? It's basically, it's a- it's an annual operation with Ukrainia, with Ukraine and Moldova in central Ukraine, we were essentially a big training operation and we were training them and it was kind of big deal because it was- it was recently after Putin had invaded Crimea and a lot of the Ukrainian Marines that we were working with there were, right before they, right after us they were going to Crimea to fight the- the Russian separatists and they had veterans there that were, that fought there before and told us how the Russians operated. And working with them for a few weeks was really awesome, I, it was cool to kind of, it was interesting to see them having to go fight someone that was as powerful as the US and their military is a complete mess, I mean it's not as bad as the Afghans but it's not much better. And seeing them try and go fight a superpower was- was insane and kind of like the courage that they, that those Marines had because knowing that a lot of them were probably gonna get killed because the- the Russians were essentially supplying these, Ru- you know separatists and I, still convinced they use unmarked soldiers but. (1:22:46) Interviewer: Oh, but that- that- that seems pretty likely… Yeah. Interviewer: Given the- the full range of available evidence but it… they do seem to limit how far they go or- or what they do if you look at the size of Ukraine as a whole it’s still, but yeah, they're still invading somebody else's country. Yeah, I remember yeah I was talking to one Marine and he was, when we- when we would ask him about Crimea he would start crying because his family was there and he couldn't go visit them, if he went and visited his family, he would get killed and then they would kill his family. And so, you know, it was a you know it was extremely personal for- for people like that that live there. And- and talking with like their- their- their EOD techs there was interesting because thethe Russians did, at least they would tell us did some really crazy stuff to them, like put, they put stakes in a field there, and they would run, they would put grenades and they would run fishing line on them and then the- the fishing line would hold the spoon of the grenade, and they pull the pin. As soon as you walk over and you hit the line, it’s clear fishing line you don't see it, soon as you notice it- it falls off the spoon and falls- and the spoon falls out and the grenade explodes. They- they showed us this, how it worked, and it was pretty effective, and it was kind of- kind of �crazy to see like a conventional military using very insurgency type tactics to attack and- and stuff. So, it was- it was interesting, and it was- it was a really good learning experience for me and kind of opened my view of the world up and how crazy it can be, so. (1:24:10) Interviewer: Alright so we've got, in the meantime so you're basically back at- at Camp Lejeune at this point and…. Yes. Interviewer: Yeah and- and just kind of waiting… Waiting my time yeah, I yeah, I would help training then once the NCOs got there that picked up for- for where I was gonna leave ‘em. They went on their training route and I essentially just made sure that I was accounted for every day, and did my process for checking out of the Marine Corps and made sure I set myself up for success by getting a job or going to school, stuff like that. Interviewer: Alright now how long did you actually enlisted for? Eight years, so you do, I- usually it’s four and four so you do four active and then four in the inactive reserve. Interviewer: Okay. Or you can do Reserve Component if you want to, but mine since I did five, mine was five and three. Interviewer: Okay. So technically right now I'm still part of the inactive reserve, but they as long as you, I mean if you're going to school or you're doing whatever you want you don't have to do anything for them, they don't, you're basically just if World War three kicks off and we need everyone you're getting called up… (1:25:10) Interviewer: Alright, now why did you, now did you assume when you went in you were just gonna do the one hitch and then that would be it? Or did you consider staying longer? I considered, after training the Ukrainians in Vietnam I kind of, or not Vietnam, Ukraine I had a lot of I guess motivation to kind of maybe do it- maybe do another enlistment but after- after the enlist- after being in Afghanistan and kind of getting back and- and some of us weren't treated so well by our unit afterwards, it kind of reminded me that, yeah the Marine Corps will still find its way to- to mess you over. And so I decided I was like I did my time, I got what I wanted out of it, you know I decided I was ready to go back to school and I think I had the motivation and thethe right mindset to go to college and- and actually pass verses going right outta high school and possibly just flunking out. And I mean you can't really beat the GI Bill which is a nice incentive to going. Interviewer: Alright so when do you actually get out? I got out, I actually ended up getting out before my actual date because Hurricane Florence hit in September of 2018 and so I was supposed to get out the 16th, but the hurricane was supposed to hit like the 13th or 12th or something like that. So, I ended up actually getting out about a week prior, and they were pushing people out to get ‘em out before the storm hit. And so that's why I got out and immediately just tried to get out of Dodge because everyone was evacuating and so I was just flying through North Carolina and West Virginia to get home. (1:26:40) Interviewer: Alright and then what did you do once you got back home? �I immediately, I- I moved in with my parents, I didn’t have that much stuff, but so I just stayed with them, stayed with them for about a month, and then I got my own place in downtown Grand Rapids. I got a job with Loomis Armored in Comstock Park. And then I decided- I decided that in January I was gonna go back to school and the- the summer prior to that, summer 2018 I came home for leave and actually went to school- toured colleges and stuff like that. Interviewer: Okay. Figure out where I was gonna go, and I decided on Grand Valley and they actually offered me to come here in September, I would have started really late and they said they could work around that somehow, but I wanted the time to kind of decompress. Interviewer: Yep. And- and you know transition a little bit and just work and kind of just enjoy- enjoy the freedom that I, you know I kind of being able to do what I want, when I want now. But yeah and then in January I started school. Interviewer: Alright now what are you majoring in? Right now management information systems is what I'm doing. (1:27:44) Interviewer: Okay and- and you bravely signed up for an upper-level history course your first semester. I did, I actually, when I signed up for it the person that was- my advisor that was helping me was asking me like, “are you sure you want to take that?” It was History of Warfare”, I was like, “I was just in the Marine Corps, like this is right up my alley, what do you mean?” And she was like “you're- it's not gonna be easy.” And I was like, “well it’s college, right.” And yeah and then getting in the class, it- with you speaking about it in the beginning I kind of knew I was, a little bit tougher than I was expecting but I think overall it helped me out a lot, kind of getting into college. Interviewer: It was academic boot camp. Yeah, yeah it's getting into it and kind of being able to write bigger papers that I'm gonna have to do later on and kind of, versus like writing 150 which is you know three five-page papers I was writin’ those while I was writing the- the 17 pages for this class, I was just like these are nothing. Interviewer: Yeah okay so, I guess now do you, you- you said- talked a little bit about that already, what do you think overall you sort of took out of the Marine Corps experience? I think just a sense of purpose in life and kind of a- a- a view of life that- that it's not really a, every day’s not a given type of thing, because you see around the world all over how quickly and how bad things can be very quickly and it kind of makes you, you know appreciate everything you have in America where you don't have to worry about a constant war you know or anything like that. It just gave me a sense of purpose and I think really kind of drives me to- to want to graduate and stuff like that. And kind of just, you know always be striving for something better and you know in the Marine Corps you're always working towards your next promotion, or you're always trained to- to, you know perfect, or you know, so you can't get something wrong and I kind of take that to my daily life where every day you kind of try to improve in some- some aspect of your life every day whether it's just simply working out or you're doing school or someyou know working, school, or something like that… (1:29:36) Interviewer: Do you still see much of the people who were your friends before you left? Or have they all gone off in different directions now? �A few, I think that's- that is also one thing that I did enjoy about the Marine Corps is that it really did show me who my true friends coming out of high school were, because when you're gone, there's only so many people that really want to reach out to you and actually care about you. And I have a core group of friends here, about five or six friends that I played rugby with and was very close to in high school and they kept tabs on me while I was gone and even would send me stuff when I was deployed and wrote me in boot camp and stuff like that. And- and I'm still friends with them and they're still around here, a lot of them graduated now and are doing, are working and stuff like that, but a majority of the people that I knew in high school I've never heard of from again and don't really care to. Interviewer: That can be true- true for a lot of us, I guess. Do you find there is sort of a gap between you and them in the sense you've gone and done all of this stuff or do they, did you, do they know enough about what you did that that gap isn't so big? I've told them a lot about things and stuff I've experienced throughout my entire time and I talked to them throughout the time too so they’ve kind of seen me evolve over- over the time too as well. But I- I don't think there's a huge gap, I think they, if I were to sit down and like have a conversation with a Marine and them there's a very distinct difference in what we would joke about, what we would talk about, and you know things like that, but I don't feel like I can't relate to them in any way, I mean I still feel like a normal, you know 23 year old just like they’re a normal 23 or 24 year old. (1:31:07) Interviewer: Yeah, I think speaking as your professor you seem to be highly functional. Yeah. Interviewer: So, yeah, no, okay look this is- this is a very good story and you tell it well, so just thank you very much for taking the time to share it. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Mapes-PearsonM2304V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mapes-Pearson, Matthias Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04 Title A name given to the resource Mapes-Pearson, Matthias (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Mathias Mapes-Pearson was born on July 16, 1995 in Burlington, Vermont, but grew up in Rockford, Michigan. He immediately enlisted in the Marine Corps after high school. After basic, he went to Infantry School and then Basic Security Guard School. For his first deployment, he was flown to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, later serving in Spain and Ukraine. He was deployed to Afghanistan in 2016. After two and a half months of guard duty, his platoon rotated to Guardian Angel duty in Lashkar Gah, the capital of the province, to advise the local police, maintain civil order, and work to push Taliban forces out of the area. He believed that the American military made significant strides to better and pacify the region, but that the long-term stability of the region depended upon the continued presence of American forces and discipline. Mapes-Pearson was in Afghanistan for six months before opting to help train the replacements for his platoon back in the United States for his last year of service. He left the service in September of 2018 and flew back to Michigan where he moved to Grand Rapids and began work for Loomis Armored transport services. He then attended GVSU, majoring in management information systems. Mapes-Pearson believed that his service gave him a sense of purpose in life and appreciation for his fortunate life in the US. It also helped him realize who his true, core group of friends was. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011—Personal narratives, American Afghan War, 2001-2021—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f6ed42806443c16a774c5ddc51c3edce.mp4 8abbb7b720d51f69562682e4e05e59c8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6fb682216d71457b607f93b37e9b9f24.pdf 749d19d975a94f7186d54b39ad30d33a PDF Text Text Mancil, Gabriel Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Afghanistan War Interviewee’s Name: Gabriel Mancil Length of Interview: (1:14:43) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Gabriel Mancil of Woodridge, Virginia. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with: where and when were you born?” I was born July 16, 1990 in Valdosta, Georgia. I lived there for about five years. My parents relocated to middle Georgia, near Robins Air Force Base. My dad went back to school and my mom worked. Interviewer: “And what were your parents doing for a living as you grew up?” My mom was a RN and my dad went back for electrical and he worked at the Robins Air Force Base for a while, working on the targeting system for the F-22 Raptor–– repairing that stuff. Interviewer: “Okay, so he was kind of a civilian working for the military at that point?” Yeah. Interviewer: “And then when did you finish high school?” My parents homeschooled me, so I did a little bit of homeschooling for a while. I got behind a little bit when my dad went back to school, so after a while I decided to go to my GED for a placement test. So, I went and took that and got my GED. Interviewer: “What year did you do that?” I got my GED in March of ‘08. Interviewer: “Now, along the way, 9/11 happened. What do you remember about that?” �I remember my mom–– I believe my dad was at school–– my mom had a meeting at work, so we had a babysitter. It was pretty early in the morning and I actually went to turn the TV on to watch cartoons and they interrupted the cartoons for a news announcement. I was 11 at the time, so I knew a little bit about it but not a whole lot. It was on for the whole morning so I watched, I believe, the second plane hit. And then I watched it most of the day. Then I started trying to watch the news more and more to understand a lot better. Interviewer: “Now, at what point do you think you might be interested in going into the military?” My grandad was in the Marines for 20 years. He served two tours in Vietnam and drove tanks and stuff like that. And, I always looked up to him a lot so it was always something that I wanted to do. I had an uncle that was in for a while–– another uncle that tried to get in but had bad eyes so couldn’t get in. So, it was always something that I wanted to do. (2:15). Interviewer: “And then when do you actually decide to enlist?” I tried signing up right before I got my–– I got my GED and tried to sign-up when I was 17. They weren’t really taking anyone at that time. And because I had a GED instead of a high school diploma, they considered me a high school drop-out. So, whenever I went to talk to the Navy, Army, and Marines they said they considered me a high school drop-out, so they wouldn’t take me. Interviewer: “So, what did you do about that?” We lived out in the middle of nowhere, so we didn’t have any computers or anything like that. So, I started working a part time job–– right when the recession hit–– at a local grocery store for a little while and I would go to the recruiters every couple of weeks and talk with them. I would get conflicting stories and then after a while I went in to talk to one recruiter at the Army. He told me I could go get some college credits at a local community college and that would count as furthering my education and they would let me in. So, I signed up for classes the next day [and] did two semesters at a local community college and then signed right up. Interviewer: “Now when you did enlist, did you have the opportunity to pick possible specializations or at least express a preference?” I scored pretty high on the ASVAB when I took the ASVAB. I believe I qualified for everything except military intelligence and a couple other jobs. I remember my recruiter was telling me MP or something higher, [but] I told him I wanted to go infantry because that’s what I always wanted �to do. I always dreamed of going to sniper school. He tried to convince me otherwise, but I told him I wanted a four year contract in infantry. That’s what I signed up for. Interviewer: “So, where do you go for basic training?” Everyone goes to Fort Benning. I went there for 16 weeks and after I graduated from that I got hometown recruiting. So, they sent you home and you worked with recruiters, trying to recruit people. I got there right after everyone went on spring break, so there was no one there. (4:18). Interviewer: “Okay. Let’s back up to the basic training. You’re in the military and everybody knows what that is, but less than one percent of the population goes in these days. So, describe the process. What happens to you over the course of those 16 weeks?” I went to OSUT which is One Station Unit Training. So, you go for your initial eight weeks of basic training, like everyone else does, no matter what branch you go into. I believe the Air Force varies a little bit, so it’s a little bit shorter. After that, you get a 36-hour pass–– you get to hang out with family and have a small ceremony. Then, you come back, and you’ll actually have the same drill instructors, and then you go for another four weeks. Interviewer: “But that’s infantry training at that point?” Infantry training. It’s more of a continuation–– you start off at the basics and start working together, and then once you come back for the last four weeks it’s pretty much the same thing, it’s just more advanced tactics. You’re kind of going up to applying everything you learned in the last four weeks–– you start applying it. Interviewer: “What do they do in the first couple of weeks?” The first couple of weeks they call it “shark week.” You’re filling out lots of paperwork, getting issued all your gear, and it’s just a lot of chaos. Everyone’s still trying to get integrated–– you get your head shaved, shots. Interviewer: “And then when the training itself begins, what do they emphasize first? Like a lot of drill and discipline and that kind of stuff, just following orders.” When you first go in, where I went in, everyone starts off at 30th AG which, at Fort Benning, is the in-processing station. So, [you] actually start there for about a week. You come in and you start going through your in-processing stuff. So, that’s when you get your shots, your haircut. They don’t wanna really hurt you or do anything when they first start off. So for me, when we got off the buses at 10 or 11 o’clock at night, it was pretty relaxed. They yelled a little bit, but �nothing like you would see in the Marine training videos like I had anticipated–– it was all getting everything going. And then after about a week or so, right after Valentine's Day, is when the drill instructors actually came up. We all sat down on duffel bags to get lined up, they picked off who they wanted in each platoon, and that’s when we actually made our march to our barracks and everything else started. That’s when the shark attack–– I guess you could say it started. (6:42). Interviewer: “How does that actually work? You said it was different from old movies and that kind of thing–– but how do they turn you from civilians into soldiers?” I guess it’s hard to explain it, just thinking about it. It’s more of just–– you’re experts at the basics. So, they’re pretty much trying to strip everyone down. You don’t get to pick who your friends are going to be, who your bunkmates are going to be. It’s kind of like [in] Full Metal Jacket when you go in. We had a bay–– there was a zone painted in the middle of the room. You were never allowed to touch it. You had to walk all the way around the bay to get to different bunks. So, I was on the far end so if I wanted to speak to my friend, I had to walk all the way around if they weren’t on the far end. And then you just start at the very basics. You’re shaving everyday–– some people don’t want to shave everyday. If you need to shave or not. There were some guys that could get away without shaving for a week, and they would have to go in there and make sure they shaved everyday–– everything’s correct. Interviewer: “And what happens to somebody who doesn’t play along or do what they’re told?” It’s more like group punishment. If one person messes up, then everyone is wrong. Some stuff–– if it’s more of a tricky situation and you’re not really sure what’s right, we were always taught that as long as everyone was together and everyone could make one group decision, then a lot of times we wouldn’t get punished as badly. And that changed and got less and less as we got on. So, it’s more of an emphasis on one unit versus individuals. (8:16). Interviewer: “Then, over the course of the 16 weeks, what range of training do you get in terms of equipment or tactics or things like that?” The first couple of weeks is just going through the basic movements. For me, it was just kind of going through and trying to survive, I guess. Getting used to PT every morning. You get in a routine where you get up, brush your teeth, shower–– I remember showers. We only got one or two showers the first couple of weeks we were there–– we got 30 second showers. We were trying to get used to showers. We figured out pretty quickly that you could turn the showers on and heat them up first, then send the guys in. Because I was first in line the first couple of times and I got cold showers. So, they figured that out. After the first couple of weeks you get your �rifle. For safety reasons they would lock them up for us every night. But, whenever we had our rifles we had to carry them around with us everywhere–– just getting used to marching around. Interviewer: “And what model rifle were you carrying at that point?” It was the M4. And then at some point, I believe towards the middle/towards the end, you go through some combat training–– basic combat training. You go through weapons training where you get trained on the different machine guns, rifles, rifle qualification, and some of the Claymore rocket launchers. Interviewer: “How long did it take you to get with the program or kind of get as comfortable as you were gonna get with training?” I always struggled at running, so that was one of the biggest hard parts for me. But once I got that down-pat, everyone else was pretty much in the same boat. There had been a couple of people who went to ROTC and kind of had an idea of how it went. My bunkmate had actually quit about three weeks into it and we got some other people who enlisted. The guy who slept next to me in my bunk, I ended up getting paired with, was prior service. He had been in the Marines for four years and he came in after like week three and got to skip the initial training phase. They have red, white, and blue phases. So, you start off in different phases. The first phase is just getting everyone integrated and then he came to that second phase. He helped a lot, as far as just helping us get it together. (10:48). Interviewer: “And, in general, how do you think that the drill instructors treated you?” I thought they were pretty relaxed–– pretty fair. After the first couple of weeks we got to know everyone and them a little bit. We had three different drill instructors. I believe one was artillery, one was infantry, and I believe the third one was infantry as well. They said they did two year cycles, I believe. But, the company before us, they had completely destroyed them. No matter what they did, they were wrong. With us, as long as we were right and acted as a group, then, for the most part, they left us alone. Interviewer: “Were those different sets of instructors then?” It was the same instructors, but they do different training cycles. So, the company that graduated before us–– they just got destroyed. I know the platoon that was upstairs above us, they got destroyed. They would do jumping-jacks, get smoked, get in corrective training sometimes where the whole building would shake. I had to go up there a couple of times to get someone and you could feel and smell the sweat coming out of the room. For us, it was more [like] whenever you screwed up it [was] more like a parent mentality. �Interviewer: “Any idea or sense of why there was a difference?” They said they just kind of got bored [with] how they wanted to do each cycle. The drill sergeant would come in sometimes and you could tell when he wasn’t having a good morning or we screwed up too much in one day. Then we had the PG–– he was the platoon commander–– and they would take the guy who was the worst at that time and make him the platoon commander as part of a punishment. So, they tried to make the punishment fit the crime to an extent. (12:34). Interviewer: “But, basically, you got relatively lucky then.” Pretty much. For the most part. Training-wise it stayed the same, but the severity of the punishment would vary. Interviewer: “So now, you get through that 16 weeks. Now, do you get further training or do you go to an active duty assignment?” I got two weeks of hometown recruiting, so they sent me home. Then after that I got sent out to Fort Riley for the 128, and that’s when I first got to my unit. Interviewer: “Now, explain to people who don’t know–– first of all, where is Fort Riley?” Fort Riley, Kansas. It’s the home of the first infantry division and I was in the 28th Infantry Division. Interviewer: “So first battalion. And which company were you in?” I was in [the] Charlie company. Interviewer: “And that’s an old, regular Army unit.” Yes, it’s an old, regular army. I believe Audie Murphy was in there. They had an Audie Murphy board every couple of months where you could go through and try to get the Audie Murphy Award. Interviewer: “And what was the unit doing at the time you joined it?” When I first got there, everyone was on leave from Iraq. They had just gotten back, reintegrated, and they all went on leave. So, it was really relaxed for the first couple of weeks. There’s not a whole lot out there, so I would go to work and there wouldn’t be a whole lot to do. It took me �almost two weeks to in-process, so it’s just a lot of sitting around. It was definitely a lot different once everyone got back because they were all gun-ho to get back into training. Interviewer: “Now, they do come back. Do you have a sense that there were–– how many people do you think were new guys? Or what proportion of your company were maybe new people?” A good bit. I was [the] third or fourth person that was pretty new. Some of the other guys that I ended up deploying with got in there a couple of months before me. One of my friends that showed up the day after me, was actually from the same company as me in basic training. He was just in the platoon that lived above me. So, I had seen him around and I recognized his name and recognized his face when we got there, and we ended up getting put in the same platoon. Then, over the next couple of months we got more and more people. (14:44). Interviewer: “Now, when a unit has come back from Iraq, do they pass through different stages of training or activity? Are they expecting to have to go and deploy somewhere again or do they just have a standard routine that you do indefinitely?” For the most part, when I first got there, I heard the company that I was going to had just gotten back. I don’t recall how soon they had been back, if they had been back a couple months–– six months–– when they went on leave or if that was the block-leave period that had rolled around. But, I know, when I first checked-in–– before I even made it to my company–– they told me we were getting ready to deploy. They told me in February, which only gave us a couple of months to get ready, so I was pretty nervous about that. Then, as February approached, they started pushing it back a little bit farther. But, we [did] a lot of–– when the ranges were available–– we would go out. Since we’re infantry, sometimes we would just go out in an empty field and just do land-navigation and stuff like that. And then some days there [were] training exercises. After I was there for about six weeks, we went out and did a two weeks FDX where we went through and really got a lot of training. Interviewer: “Now, how much did the experienced people tell you about what had happened in say, Iraq, or what goes on when you’re in a place like that?” (16:15). As far as stories and stuff like that, not a whole lot. It was more like, “You’re the new guy. You don’t know anything.” And I knew that, so I just tried to keep up the best I could. I still had a lot of trouble with running, so it was just PT everyday. It was a lot of–– not so much endurance, but it was just a lot more running–– moving long distances over short amounts of time versus endurance. A lot of the guys who had just got back from Iraq still had their Iraq mentality versus Afghanistan mentality–– where you could go building to building and then once you got to Afghanistan they didn’t really understand that you had to go long distances over longer periods �of time. You’re going to carry more weight. You’re not going to be able to move as fast and you’re going to be [at] a lot higher altitude. You’re going to have cold weather versus hot. Interviewer: “So, they’ve got a reasonable idea about what conditions they were preparing for.” Mentally, they knew what they were doing. There were still some arguments about how best we should train. Towards the end, about six months into it–– because I got to my unit and everyone got back about August of 2011, and then I deployed in May of 2012. About six months into it, I got a new team leader who had transferred from a different company, and he’d actually been to the same post that we were told we were going to. And he was one of the guys who actually, originally helped set it up. So, he tried to help some of the other team leaders and squad leaders understand the difference between going to Iraq–– building to building–– and then going to Afghanistan where you’re at 8,000 or 9,000 feet. Interviewer: “Now, had he been to both places?” Off the top of my head I can’t recall. Interviewer: “But, he had been to Afghanistan and he knew that part of it. Did you notice any kind of friction between a team leader who is below the level of a squad leader or a platoon sergeant or something like that? So, was he telling people higher up than him how to be doing things?” Not trying to tell them how to do it. He was a team leader–– he was an E5. Some of our team leaders, at the time, were Private First Class, so they weren’t very senior in rank–– and some of them were the new guys who had excelled in the training and stuff like that. So, we’re always short of people, so it’s more of we know what you need to do, but it’s going to be a little bit different than you think. I know I had some of them that had just gotten back from Iraq who had told me when you step off the airplane it’s going to feel like a blow-dryer in your face. I don’t think they exactly understood how much different it was going to be. When I first stepped off the plane, in Afghanistan, I thought it was going to be like a big blow-dryer in my face and it was like 69 degrees [and] a little bit chilly. (18:58). Interviewer: “If you show up at the wrong time of the year, you might still get the blowdryer thing, but not there. Now, do you do all of that preparatory training at Fort Riley or do they move you to different places to train?” We did all of our preparatory training at Fort Riley until the very end, then we did FDX which you went from [a] big training movement out into California. And that’s more of all the �companies and stuff get together and work together, so it’s more of like a leadership course for them and that kind of allows us to work together. Interviewer: “Now, do they do that in a desert environment?” Yes. It’s a desert environment. It’s pretty cool. A lot of the training stuff we saw over there–– out in California, out in the desert–– was very similar to what we actually saw when we deployed. It wasn’t quite as flat, but there were a lot of small mountains and stuff we got to go on. The environment–– as far as the sandy conditions and sporadic buildings all over the desert, convoys and stuff like that–– was actually very close to what we actually encountered. Interviewer: “Now, over the course of training for Afghanistan, did they try to teach you anything about the culture or the society there or how to deal with the people?” Yeah. You go through a lot of training stations that they have set up, so you go through specific scenarios where you’re doing down casualties and stuff like that. You’re going through and moving through communities and stuff like that. And they have actors who can actually speak the language to get you used to walking through cities where you have people just running up and trying to grab your pockets, wanting to come up and touch you, throw stuff at you. They’ll pretend to throw rocks at you, they’ll yell at you, and try and communicate with you. And you have to learn to, kind of, communicate nonverbally. (20:40). Interviewer: “So there’s some idea of what you’re going to do out there or what might happen to you.” Right. Interviewer: “And it doesn’t always happen, it depends on the circumstance.” And they try and base the training that you’re doing off of where you’re actually going to be deployed to. Some units aren’t up for rotation, so they aren’t going to be deploying. They’ll just come in and do a basic training scenario in the current world environment of where they could possibly be deployed to. [With] us they tried to critique it to where we were actually training for– – what we would see down range. I got a much better understanding of what I was going to be going into once I deployed. Interviewer: “Now, once the time comes, how did they get you to Afghanistan?” We actually went to Topeka, Kansas. We got Greyhound shuttle buses that drove us up there. It was only about an hour away, and there’s a small airport and they actually shut the airport down. �So, after we packed all of our gear up, jumped on some Greyhound buses, and rode out. Then we just walked right through the airport terminal–– which is only 100 yards or so–– right onto the plane. Interviewer: “Now, did you fly military aircraft or charter civilian?” It was a charter civilian. We did have, I believe, two purple F-15s/F-16s that actually escorted us. I got the window seat, so that was pretty interesting. Interviewer: “Now, you fly out of Topeka. Then, where do you go?” We went to Topeka and we had a layover in Holland, Germany at an old Air Force Base there. So we got to see–– I believe–– some of the old World War II hangars and stuff there. And then they just refueled for a couple hours. Went there to Kyrgyzstan in Manas, which is like a small little base there. We were there for a couple of days until our transport came and I believe we went on a C-130 out of there to Afghanistan. Then once we got into Afghanistan we went to a much smaller Forward Operating Base–– Sharana–– FOB Sharana. Then we went from there and took Chinooks out to our actual COP–– our Command Office. (22:43). Interviewer: “So, you’re getting to smaller and smaller places.” Yep, smaller and smaller. We actually went from FOB Sharana and we got on Chinooks two or three different times and the weather was too bad, so we had to turn around. So, I believe, it was the third or fourth try we actually made it. So, it took about a week, week-and-a-half, to actually get all of the way. Interviewer: “And then, as you’re stopping in these places–– when you get to Kyrgyzstan and get to Afghanistan or at Sharana–– what kinds of things catch your attention?” Driving into Kyrgyzstan, we got there late at night and I thought it was pretty interesting. It looked like something out of Call of Duty–– the old abandoned buildings and you’re driving through the checkpoints. It looked like something just out of one of the Call of Duty games when you do a–– there’s one where you go Chernobyl. It looked really eerie like that. And you know you’re getting closer and closer, and after a while you actually get really excited to actually get there. Interviewer: “Did you spend much time at Sharana or was that just a transit point for you?” It was pretty much a transit point. We were only supposed to spend a couple of days there. We had some guys who had actually left before us–– a couple days before us–– and we ended up �bumping into them. They got held back with weather. So, we were supposed to be there for two or three days, they told us, [but] I think we were there for almost a week–– just waiting for the weather to clear. Interviewer: “What sort of facilities did they have at Sharana?” It’s like a small tent-city. They have different sections. We only stayed in our small section with some tents. And it’s just rows and rows of tents. Interviewer: “And do you know if there were Afghan soldiers there or were they all American soldiers?” Not there. Just all Americans from what we saw. I believe it was [in] Sharana when we were walking around–– we got to walk around for a little bit–– we had to go find some blankets. So, we ended up getting stuck there for a couple of days [and] most of our gear was still packed up. So, we actually went and got some blankets and bumped into some Marines–– saw some Air Force people walking around–– and that was really the only interaction we had with anyone. (24:41). Interviewer: “But, now you finally get out to your Command Op Post. Was your whole company based there?” We had two platoons, so two out of four of our platoons were stationed there. Interviewer: “How many men per platoon?” I want to say there’s about 46 or so. 45-50 per platoon and then we had–– I believe–– another, at least, half a platoon, if not a platoon, of support. So, we had the company commander, two mechanics, two cooks, [and] some other personnel there to work the command center. Interviewer: “Now, you said mechanics. Did you have vehicles there?” We had four vehicles. I believe it was a four-wheeler that got blown up before we got there, and there was a small utility vehicle like a Gator that you could put in some small cans of gas or something like that. Interviewer: “And did you have any trucks or humvees?” We had four MTVs and we had one MRAP. �Interviewer: “And describe what those are.” I know we had a M-ATV and that was more of an off-road vehicle. It carried four people, plus a gunner. And we had four of those and it had RPG netting all around it. And it was more designed for off-road use. You could deflate the tires and it had different settings, more for mobility. Then, we had one MaxxPro that wasn’t functioning all the way and we’d just use that to keep the gate shut. So, if anyone tried driving in the front gate, they would just hit the truck. That was more of a personnel carrier and that had the gunner, driver, passenger, and I believe it could carry up to six people sitting down, in the rear. But, that was not designed for the terrain it was in. (26:52). Interviewer: “And what sort of defenses did the Position have?” We had our small COP based on–– it was positioned more on the side of a valley, and then we had a small hill that was over beside us that we used for the outpost, and that was manned with a camera that could look around 360 degrees and see just about anything near us. Interviewer: “And did you have concertina wire or anything else like that?” We had HESCOs which are just big–– small fencing with mesh netting on the box spring on the inside, and you can just pop them up. They can airlift them in, pop them up, and then just use a backhoe to fill them up with dirt, and then you just stack them on top of each other. Interviewer: “And then, were you dug in? Did you have bunkers or sandbags or anything like that?” The unit before us–– my team leader that I previously had, he left right before we deployed because he got out. He was supposed to get out, [but] he ended up getting called back and then deploying for three or four weeks, so he went to a different company. But, he had helped build it up. They had hard structures where they had five or six layers of sandbags and concrete and some dirt they had thrown up on the roof. So, our barracks area was halfway secure and then we had at least one bunker for each of the sleeping quarters and then over near the command center that were hardened concrete with sandbags that could withstand a mortar round. (28:20). Interviewer: “So when you got out there, what was your unit’s job?” Our main job was just to support the Afghan National Army–– the ANA–– and some of their patrols. Then, just do foot patrols of the actual surrounding areas. It was pretty remote. I believe we were at 7,000 feet in elevation and we were more at the entrance to a small valley. So, we patrolled everything that was towards the west of us. There were a couple small villages and we’d just patrol around there and help the ANA in whatever they were doing at the time. �Interviewer: “And what was your impression of the Afghan National Army?” The first guys we got were really good. I remember the first day or two we got there they had seen a light in the Bazaar [in] the small town. It was about a mile away from us and one of the guys in the ANA–– up in the guard tower–– opened up with a 0.50 caliber machine gun, just shooting into the city. And I believe that might have been the first or second night we were there. So, my first impression was we were getting overrun and something bad was happening. So, we threw all of our gear on, ran to where we were supposed to, waited for further instructions, and it ended up just being–– some of the other guys that hadn’t left yet–– that we were getting ready to replace–– said that they did that from time to time. Interviewer: “They just get a little bit trigger happy.” Yeah, they get a little trigger happy. But going on patrols and stuff, they were very good. They would help us a lot. Interviewer: “What were they good at or what were they doing well?” Just working with us, they were good. They would come up and try to talk to us. They were really friendly. Further on, after the first couple weeks, they left and we got a new set of guys that would come in. It’s a lot different than it is over here. There are no background checks and stuff. A lot of the time it’s like you show up and [you] want to help, and they just give you a gun. A couple of times, on the OP, my team leader was walking around looking for them and found one guy that was doodling in a notebook, a map of our entire little COP. He had all the barracks quarters, our main command post, and everything sketched out in a notebook. So, a lot of them–– you can’t prove it–– but you know they’re not as friendly as they seem. And they had a lot of green-on-blue situations where the Afghan National Army were going around and shooting people, so you always had to be on your toes. (30:47). Interviewer: “And how much Taliban activity was there?” Our COP was actually–– we’re about two miles from Pakistan. And, from what we were told, we were the training post for the new, incoming Taliban that were training on their mortars. So, we would actually go out there and we would be the target for the new recruits, as we were told, from the guys we were replacing. The first mortar rounds they would shoot at us–– we got probably five or six a day at minimum–– and it would just go every single day two or three times a day. They would shoot five or six and wait, and then shoot five or six more. And it started out being 200 or 300 yards apart and then would be 500 meters away from the COP. It was just really sporadic and then everyday they would just get closer and closer. Towards the end they �were shooting them, probably, within 50 feet of our barracks that we were staying at. And it would hit right on the edge. Our barracks were backed up against one of the back corners and it would hit on top of or right over outside the HESCOs–– probably within 100 feet or so. So, it got pretty good. And then, all of the sudden it stopped for three weeks. And then it started back up again and they were terrible again. Interviewer: “Did you have any means of responding to the mortar fire?” We could respond to mortar fire, but in order to do that–– for safety reasons and stuff like that–– where we were at, everything had to be airlifted in. So, all of our food, mail, everything else got airlifted in. So, the gunners would have to–– the crew operating the mortar system–– would have to go and get permission and send it up to the top. They would have to send it to the battalion and would have to get permission to fire. It would have to get relayed back to us, and then they would be allowed to fire. (32:37). Interviewer: “And how long does that take?” It seemed like an hour but sometimes it’s only a couple minutes–– five or six minutes at the most. But, a lot of times–– sometimes we thought they were using mortar tubes with ice. They’d put ice in the tubes–– just a little bit–– to keep it from firing and would slip it in and walk away and then 20 minutes later would shoot them off. We heard reports that they were using timers–– we never found any timers. But a lot of the times at the mountain pass, they would just drive-up in the back of a pickup truck, and they would drop them down the tubes and shoot them off two or three at a time. Then, they would take off again around the pass. And we would never be able to actually, physically, see them. We could shoot back off before they came back around. Interviewer: “Were they firing from within Afghan territory?” It was in Afghanistan. Interviewer: “And would they just come in, cross the border, shoot at you, and leave?” I think they were in the same area. We were a couple miles–– I believe they were north of us. They would come in from the north and they would shoot–– we were south [and] the border would be over towards the east. So, they would come in, shoot at us, [and] turn around and drive back. So, they weren’t coming across the border. We believe some of the fighters were coming from Pakistan into Afghanistan and working out of Afghanistan. Interviewer: “Now, would the Afghan Army then try to go into the areas where the firing came from, just to patrol and see what they could find?” �I believe sometimes they would just shoot at them. Most of the time it was just them jumping down behind rocks and stuff like we did. There wasn’t a whole lot they could do. They would be far enough away [that] small arms fire and stuff wouldn’t really do it. You’d have to reach out with close air support or mortars. And by the time anyone got a chance to actually shoot back at them–– for the most part they would go back. As time went on we got an idea of where they would shoot from, and they would have the coordinates already loaded in. Then, the second they would shoot them off, someone would be standing by it. They tended to do it early in the morning or in the evening–– around four or five o’clock–– so they would be ready–– the mortar team would be ready and the seconds the shots went off, they would have the battalion on the phone. And, we got a couple of them doing it. (34:58). Interviewer: “But I was also thinking more generally, I mean, would you patrol other times of day or would you patrol the places they were shooting from?” Originally we were told we were going to be going out only in the day [and] we weren’t going to be doing any night missions. And then we tried going out in the morning–– there was a small hill a mile away and you could actually crawl up on the back side of it and see just over the HESCOs. You couldn’t see everything, but you could see whenever we were leaving. And we were at the side of a valley, so the only way to actually get out was through one gate and they could see us coming out every time. So, after the first couple of weeks we started getting shot at– – every single time we left the gate. So, we started getting outside the gate before they could shoot at us and then they would just wait for us to come back in because we had to come back in through the same gate. So, no matter how you switch your pattern up, eventually you have to come in to the front. So, we ended up switching it up and just doing strictly night patrols when we could. We nicknamed it the “Mortar Mile” because we’d get in before we’d enter the base again every time we went out throughout the night. Or, if we ended up getting stuck out during the day–– trying to come in at seven o’clock in the morning. You’d have someone out there spotting us and they would try and shoot mortars at us as we were coming in–– the last mile. (36:20). Interviewer: “And would you leave anybody out there to try to interject the place they’d spot you from? Like did you occupy that hill or?” The hill–– we were told–– had IEDs all over it. So, we were told to stay away from it. We walked around the base a few times. There were a couple of other hills where there were more civilians where we thought they didn’t have as many IEDs, so sometimes we would just send a gun team out with the heavy weapons and they would actually go out 20-30 minutes before us and set up an overwatch position and then we would move out. But, we found the fastest way to usually do it–– the easiest–– was just to wait till 10 or 11 o’clock at night–– depending on the �moon–– and we would just quietly run out. We could get outside of the gate before they could do anything, and we would vary our times when we came back in. Sometimes we would circle around, wait a few minutes, and then go back in. And they can’t shoot at night, so they couldn’t really do anything–– it kind of became a cat and mouse game. Interviewer: “Yeah. That’s what it sounds like. Now, did you spend your whole time in Afghanistan working out of that one base?” We went out of that one base the whole time–– for the first six months or so, then they shut that COP down. Then we moved, I believe, about 15 miles away to FOB Boras, which was a much bigger base and there were a lot more people there. So, we spent a couple of months tearing everything down and then we ended up spending five or six days sleeping in the actual sand-built bunkers and stuff–– waiting for the go ahead to actually finish moving out. So, once we left they had a wrecking crew that came in and they bulldozed everything–– dug big pits and buried anything that was valuable. Moved all the food out, burned everything we could. (38:15). Interviewer: “During the first six months, did the situation change at all? Or was it pretty much the same when you left as it was when you got there?” It seemed like it changed a lot because we went through the small town that was there and the civilians could see the patches were different–– we did our patrols different. We tried to work with the civilians a lot–– as much as we could. So, we did a couple of patrols around the area. We’d have some villagers that would come out and they’d walk up a couple hundred yards to the gate and we’d send someone out there to talk with them–– usually an interpreter, to see what they wanted and try to talk with them as much as we could. It seemed like the presence and stuff–– we tried to be proactive as much as we could to keep the Taliban away from that area. And then, from what I understand, once we left, they just came right back. Interviewer: “Now, basically, do you think the civilians were happy to have you there because they didn’t like the Taliban or were they just trying to get along with you?” From what we could see. We talked to some of the interpreters who knew the town a lot better and they said they liked us being there, but it’s tricky for them–– they get punished if they help us. So, they don’t really want to interact with us and then, just where we were at and stuff, we weren’t able to actually just walk through the bazaar and talk to people randomly–– or actually get to know them a lot better. And I wasn’t in a leadership position, so I don’t know the actual thought of the leaders that were there–– whether they strongly supported us or not. Interviewer: “And who were your interpreters? Were they Americans or Afghans?” �We had two Afghan interpreters. I didn’t really work with them as much. They would work with a lot of leadership and stuff, when we would go on patrol. We had one guy who was National Guard who operated a communications surveillance system, where you can listen in to incoming traffic from the Taliban. So, we could listen to their radio traffic and a lot of the times he would repeat stuff that he heard. I believe he could speak Pashtu and Dari a little bit, which was the dialect they used. Then, sometimes we would have the interpreter with us, so we could understand a little bit of what they were saying. (40:31). Interviewer: “What kinds of things were they talking about?” They would always say, “If they come over here, we’re going to attack them,” [and] “if the Americans do this or that.” And a lot of the time we would turn around and go right towards them. Sometimes it was warranted that we would skip that area, or we’d circle around and avoid a certain area. They would always say, “We have an IED here,” or “we did this.” Very rarely would they ever follow through. We think they knew we were listening to them and sometimes– – maybe they were trying to hype their guys up and they just couldn’t follow through, or they were just trying to toy with us. Interviewer: “Now, did you have any means of detecting IEDs? Or did you just try to stay away from places that had them?” We had some trucks that had a detector on there that would jam any incoming signals. We’d have mine detectors and stuff like that, but terrain we’re in–– I guess it’s almost like an ocean or like a raisin. There were just small hills and valleys, so it was really hard to actually plant. We could see everything that was going on–– for the most part–– right in front of us. It was really hard to hide any IEDs. We did end up having one truck that drove over one–– we weren’t sure if it was a pressure plate or command detonated, which you can’t stop. The only way to stop it is to catch it before they set it off–– if it’s command detonated–– or if it's a pressure plate, catch them before they put it in–– or try not to drive over it. Interviewer: “A command detonate, would that be––” A command detonated is if someone has a wire. I think some of them call it “angel hair wire.” It’s like a small copper wire and it can be like a thread, and they’ll stretch it a mile or two. Interviewer: “So, if you had a wire, you can’t jam it.” You can’t jam it. A pressure plate–– went through a lot of the training where they showed us the different IEDs they had built, and there’s a lot of different types of pressure plate IEDs. They’ll try to use springs and stuff like that. They are only detonated if you’re over 140 pounds or so, �because most of the troops, with their gear, weigh significantly more than a lot of the population. So, a teenager might be able to walk right over it not see it, then someone else comes by and steps on it, it’ll set it off. (42:51). Interviewer: “And if you think back to those six months at the small base, are there any other particular events or impressions that stand out in your memory–– from that phase?” I thought after a while–– I’m sure my wife thought it was nerve-racking, but I would try and call her every evening. A lot of the times when I would call her–– because of the time difference–– they would shoot mortars at us and I would have to hang up on her. We never knew when they were gonna–– my team leader was there. They ended up trying to get overrun, at least once. We were told every unit before us–– sometime in the spring–– had tried and overrun us. So, the whole time we were there, it was just [like] waiting for an attack that never really came. A couple of small, sporadic attacks, but nothing like the 300 people or so that they had attacked a couple of times before. Interviewer: “Okay, so when they sort of ‘probed’ you or approached you, what happened?” For the most part, they wouldn't really fight us up front–– it was just shooting mortars at us, RPGs, and stuff like that. We thought it was pretty funny. For a while, when they got pretty good, it was around seven o’clock in the morning, every single day. It was like an alarm clock. They would shoot mortars at us and we would jump up in our t-shirts and PT shorts and just run out to the bunker and just wait, and they would just go back. But, after a while we did get good enough to where we could go out and we did ambush them once. (44:13). Interviewer: “What happened then?” It was pretty good. We actually went out and it was a textbook ambush–– linear ambush–– where we went out early in the morning near one of the wading systems that was about a mile away, on the opposite side of the bazaar. Civilians would drive trucks and stuff back and forth [and] go into the different little towns. And we knew that they were traveling up that early in the morning to shoot RPGs at us–– mortars and stuff like that. We walked out there before they saw us, and we were out there for about a half-an-hour before we saw some walking by. It was just like a textbook ambush–– they never even saw us coming. Interviewer: “How close do they have to get to use the RPGs?” They don’t really have a specific distance–– they’re not accurate more than a couple hundred yards–– they start to fishtail a lot. They would shoot them from 400/500 meters away–– 600 �meters away. I can’t remember off the top of my head what the actual distance is–– they’ll only go so far and they’ll just kind of–– Interviewer: “So, it’s harassment rather than aimed fire at that point?” Harassment. We did have a couple of guys–– three or four days after they had gotten there, from what I understand, there was two or three guys had snuck up and were trying to probe us, a little bit, and shot a couple RPGs at us at probably like two o’clock in the morning and they ended up calling close air support in and drop two JDAMs–– two 500 pound laser-guided bombs. So, it was a pretty firework show we saw that night. After that, they never really messed with us, it was just more [like] they’re going to throw everything at us, as soon as they can. So, it was more just harassment. Interviewer: “When you would patrol and go out with the Afghans, did you have any kind of air support or anything like that?” Our company commander was really good about that. Every single time we went out we tried to have Apaches on station. We did have a Predator that was on station a lot of times and they could see us. From what I understand, there were Special Forces–– the Green Berets had a base that wasn’t too far from us that they would operate out of. So, we never had to go out there and we never messed with them–– never saw them. But, usually, the SF and they guys like that will have Predators and stuff like that on station. So, he would always have stuff come by. We did have at least two different times where the Taliban did try to ambush us, and we managed to get back over and they just shot a couple of RPGs at us and some smaller fire. I did feel a couple bullets go by my head, saw it by my hands. Went over the hill and the ANA shot some RPGs back at them and we had a couple F-15s that did the show of force–– they would come in 100 feet off the ground and come screaming by. So, that was pretty cool. One came by one day, going super sonic, because we had radio traffic that they were getting ready to ambush us. So, there were a couple of close calls but for the most part–– some of the other documentaries and stuff I’ve seen, it wasn’t nearly as bad as what we were expecting. (47:16). Interviewer: “Yeah. If they were going to ambush you, were they going to do that as you were coming out of the base? Or, into it?” We usually would set up and then take off before they could actually see us come out–– and it was usually so fast that they couldn’t get us. So, they would usually try and wait if it was during the day and try to ambush us as we came back. We were far enough away from any hills or anything like that–– they really couldn’t get close enough to us to actually attack us with small arms fire. The only option for them was, really, to shoot mortars at us. So, that was really their best option. Sometimes at night they would try and do something like that, or if we’d tried to go �through or right near the bazaar or some of the other small towns in the area. They had a lot better chances in the city. But, it was more of a cat-and-mouse game. We would hear radio traffic and we’d scoot a different way–– try and outthink them. We’d never take the same route twice (48:17). Interviewer: “Do you have any sense that they kind of backed away some in the latter part of your stay there? Or were a little more careful about what they did with you?” It seemed like the farther we got, the closer the cat-and-mouse game got. We–– proactively–– tried to go after them, the best we could. But, it was more like we would step their way and they would just step around us. So, no matter which way we turned, we could never really go head-tohead. One day we ended up going through and taking pictures and fingerprints of a lot of people, and we did it all morning. Then, we tried to go straight through one of the small villages and they shot at us with a couple of RPGs. Then, we tried taking off and actually going back to our COP– – [it] was midmorning, probably 11 o’clock–– and that’s when they actually started trying to shoot small arms fire at us, which was one of the only times they shot small arms fire at us. That was pretty effective, for the most part–– but it only took a couple minutes for the return fire. That surprised them enough to back off. Interviewer: “Now, did your unit take casualties while you were there?” We were the only company that didn’t take any casualties. We lost six guys out of our battalion, so out of the four companies. We did have some guys that stepped on a couple of IEDs [and] one guy that shot in the arm. Interviewer: “You got wounded but not killed.” Not killed. Our company was the only one. Interviewer: “So now when you move to the larger base, what are you doing from there?” From there we were getting ready to shut FOB Tillman down–– they were getting ready to shut that down. And it was more out in the open, there weren't really a whole lot of foot patrols that we could do. We did a couple of mounted patrols and then after that I stayed and pulled gate guard for one of the entry control points for the Afghan National Army–– some of their guys would come through. They had cooks and stuff–– people that delivered food would come through. Some of my friends got handpicked to go on security patrol [where] they’d walk the mountain–– they’d walk the ridge tops–– kind of escorting the wrecking crew that was driving through. So, they were gone for a couple weeks and they operated out of another base, and then they came back. One of the last big patrols, I went with them–– escorting the crew out when they �actually got done and were ready to come back after about a week-and-a-half/two weeks. Then, we escorted them back out. And that was about it for another two or three weeks and then we came home. (50:51). Interviewer: “And during this period, would the Taliban attack you at that base or harass you with mortars?” They would shoot a lot more mortars at us. That was a lot bigger base and we had three or four 155 Howitzers that were out there, so they could actually shoot back. Their incoming radar detection was a lot better. We had one at our small base that we had, but from my understanding they could either have the warning system on or they could track the incoming mortars. So, when we were at our smaller base, for the first couple weeks they would have the warning system come on, so they would shoot the mortars at us and we’d hear the warning. The classic siren going off and we’d all take off running, duck down, and then would shoot back. At the bigger base, they had it down a lot better. As far as I know, they don’t have any anti-mortar systems that could actually shoot it out of the sky. But, there were a couple sporadic mortars that would hit–– nothing like we were used to. They actually shot mortars at us one day when me and my friend were first walking around. We heard the mortar hit and we threw ourselves on the ground and then we looked around and no one else had done it–– and it wasn’t even anywhere near us. So, we thought it was kind of embarrassing. (52:09). Interviewer: “And while you were there, could you actually learn to tell a little bit better if it was going to be close to you?” After the first couple of weeks in country, you can, kind of. It was a really faint pop. One of my friends actually had some hearing damage from some machine gun fire. He couldn’t hear–– he would always ask you to repeat yourself. I know I talk pretty low sometimes, but he would constantly have people have to repeat stuff. He would hear that pop go off every time. Sometimes he would take off running and you would just take off running with him. So after the first month or so, you could hear the definite “pop” and there’s probably an eight to ten second delay before it would actually go off. And they could usually shoot a couple off at once, so you would hear a “pop” [and] everyone would take off running, and you could usually get behind cover in time. Then you’d have two or three go off pretty close to each other–– within a few seconds. Then, sometimes there might be a couple minute delay and they might try to shoot a couple more at us before we could shoot back at them. Just to see if anyone would come out of cover and then we would always have to wait, I believe, 20 minutes or so–– we would wait around for the all clear, just to make sure they weren’t trying to wait us out and try and catch someone out in the open. Interviewer: “Do you know why you were shutting these bases down?” �To start and pull all of the troops out of Afghanistan. They started closing all of the smaller command posts and just trying to draw everything back. Ours had been there for a while and it wasn’t of much strategic importance, as far as I know. So, we just started closing all of those down. Interviewer: “So you’re not turning it over to the Afghan military because there’s not really a point to that, or?” No. I was still a Private then–– I don’t remember a whole lot about exactly why we did everything we did, but I know ours wasn’t important enough for them to want to keep it manned. There were a lot of other bases that were a little bit further away from us that were manned by the Afghan National Army–– strictly them. So, as far as I know, they just kept those open and we were one of the bases that wasn’t needed. So, we tore everything down and tried to make it as close to it as when we got there. It looked considerably different within two weeks. (54:25). Interviewer: “And then kind of shutting that down, that’s pretty much the end of your tour in Afghanistan?” That’s pretty much it. Interviewer: “And how do they get you back?” We got back and we pretty much went in reverse order. We went back to Manas, then we went from there back to Bagram. Then, once we went to Bagram–– after we actually got to leave–– then we flew from there back to Kyrgyzstan and Germany–– in reverse order. Interviewer: “Now, [do] you get a leave when you get home?” We got back, we had to turn all of our equipment in. The ceremony when we got back was pretty fast. I was actually one of the first people to come back. So, I flew back with some guys who were out of Fort Campbell, Kentucky. So I actually flew back to the base with them and was in the other room when they all did their–– they got off the plane and went onto the runway and all their family met up. Then, they took us into the big hangar and we stayed there for probably six hours. They told us something was wrong with the airplane and they had to fix it. So, we were there for a while and got back on the plane and flew from there back to Kansas. Interviewer: “Now, does the Army do anything to sort-of help you back with the transition to being back in the States or seeing your family again? Or, is it just, ‘Here you go?’” �Pretty much, “Here you go.” I know you hear some stories–– it might’ve been a little different when we deployed. We did nine months [with] no leave. Some of the other guys at the beginning of the war did longer deployments, but they usually got to come home to leave for at least a week or two. I could see where that was a lot harder where you go from–– in Iraq one day, 3 or 4 days later you’re back stateside, and you gotta turn around and go right back after a week or so. So, for us, I guess it was a little bit better. We weren’t there quite as long, but we got no leave so our decompression–– the amount of time it took us to come back, which was probably a week or two. (56:38). Interviewer: “And then once you do get back, how much leave do you get?” I think we could take at least a month. I think I took three weeks. I broke my foot when we did one of my last patrols, so I came back early to try and get it looked at because I knew something was wrong, but I didn’t know exactly what. So, I had to come back. Interviewer: “How did you break your foot?” We were doing one of our patrols. When we shut FOB Tillman down, I was doing escort for the guys who were driving the dozers and stuff back. I was probably about 135 pounds and I was carrying probably 120 pounds or so, and it was probably one of the hardest patrols I had done. From what I know, it was just the sheer weight and rocky ground and stuff like that. I fractured the bone on the bottom of my foot, and it got worse. It wasn’t bad enough to get airlifted out–– I know one of my friends on a previous patrol, escorting them in, fell down and broke his leg and he had to get air vacced out. So, me, I just walked on it for a while, came back, had about a week off, and then we did one last foot patrol where nothing happened. That was probably 10 or 12 miles and it just kept compounding on itself. It would heal up a little bit, then I’d walk on it, the bone would rub against the nerve, and I would go back and it would heal up enough. An x-ray didn’t catch it. I went on leave for about three weeks and came back, and then spent about six months trying to figure out what it was. It took a little while to get a bone scan and then the bone scan caught it. (58:11). Interviewer: “So, when you come back from leave, you’re at Fort Riley again, at this point?” [I] went back to Fort Riley and it was pretty much the same as when I had first gotten there. Everyone had just come back from leave. I believe we had one or two new Privates that were waiting on us when we got there. Then, over the next couple of months we got more and more. As people get promoted, they get transferred out to different companies. That way there is no conflict of interest, when possible. Interviewer: “At what point do you get promoted?” �I got promoted about six months in, when I hit my year-and-a-half mark. I got promoted from Private to Private First Class. And then, I believe, a day or two after I got back is when I actually picked up Specialist. Then, I was in-and-out of the hospital, trying to get my leg looked at, so I never went to get Sergeant. Usually you have to pass a PT test and go to the promotion board and stuff like that. And if you’re on profile, trying to get your foot looked at or any other thing, they don’t send you to the promotion board. Interviewer: “Now the foot–– did that have anything to do with your leaving the Army, or were you ready to go anyway?” It took about six months to figure out what was wrong. I got back February 2, 2013 and it was probably August of 2013 before I figured out what was wrong. Then, I believe it was December 6 of 2013 when I got my first surgery, and that took about a month to heal up. I was in sneakers for a while–– couldn’t get my foot into a boot. Then, it was a lot of healing up afterwards. They went into my foot and took the bone out from my big toe, so my big toe just kind of flopped around. There was no tendon. I had no muscle, so I still couldn’t really walk or run. And then, after about another three or four months, probably going into March of 2014, they decided they were going to med board me–– and just do a medical discharge. After I tried getting better and it just wasn’t working. (1:00:24). Interviewer: “But, you still wind up being in, officially, until 2017.” That took about almost nine months to go through the med board process. You have to go through and do your medical evaluation–– after they’ve decided that they wanna start the med board process. There’s a lot of paperwork you have to go through. You have to do all your discharge paperwork and then all the information you submit to the med board claim has to come back after it’s processed, and you have to agree to it. When I first got it back, I believe they only rated me at ten percent. I had gone and seen a doctor right before I came back from deployment to try and get my foot looked at, but they didn’t have any x-ray equipment or anything like that. So, I just came back to get looked at and they told me their computers had crashed [and] they didn’t have anything on file. So, I had to go over to another unit and talk to somebody. Interviewer: “So, we were kind of talking about the end of your time in the service. So, you get back and you have the foot injury and so forth, there’s this extended process of having you muster out and so you’re not going to be able to reenlist. Was the original plan to reenlist and do another hitch?” I had been talking about it with my wife. She had just found out that she was pregnant and she had our daughter right before I got out–– June 18 of 2014. So, it was right around the time I found out that I was getting med boarded. I was kind of on the fence if I wanted to reenlist. My �granddad did tanks for a while, so I was considering reenlisting to go–– I was kind of at the point where I wasn’t sure if I wanted to stay in or try and do anything else. And that kind of got made up for me. (1:02:16). Interviewer: “The medical thing kind of took over at that point. While we were off camera, you were talking a little bit about another situation. You said there was a point when a General would come out and visit the base. What happens when that goes on?” The COP I was at–– the latrines and stuff like that, we just had little outhouses and we had wagbags. Some people might use them for camping–– it’s almost just like cat litter in them. You’d just open them up and that’s where you would use the bathroom. If you had to take a leak, it was just a tube that was buried a couple feet in the ground. We didn’t shower very much and our uniforms were pretty dirty–– we only got to do laundry a couple of times. A lot of it was washing socks in an ammo can and wiping with baby wipes and stuff like that. So, especially being in the infantry, no women were allowed in at that time. So, they didn’t allow women out there and there were only two or three women the entire six months/seven months we were there–– where women had actually come out. And just, the women, just using the shampoo–– or even some of the Generals and stuff, just being clean–– even from a couple of hundred yards away, just walking by that area, you can just smell the–– not even like perfume–– you can just smell the fresh shampoo and the clean clothes. We thought it was pretty funny when someone would come out–– and I walked by one day–– and even after they left, you could just smell it for hours. Just the smell of clean. Our CO commented a couple of times that we all smelled pretty bad towards the end. Interviewer: “Well, you didn’t really have any way of washing yourself because you didn’t have a regular water supply.” They would airlift in pallets of water. They would actually air drop them off and push the pallets off of the back of a C-130 that would come in to do a resupply drop with food and stuff like that. So, we had pallets of water to drink with and with bottled water, you can do about anything you want with it. We would have non-potable water that the Afghan National Army would go down, every week or two for us, and pump some water out of the well in the community bazaar. They would bring it back and put it into big blivets. (1:04:30). Interviewer: “What do you do with that water?” You can’t drink it, but you can use that for showers. So, I got four or five quick, 60-second, showers–– including lathering up. And then we would use that for laundry and stuff like that. But, after a while, the water ran out and it was too much trouble to actually go get the water. So, a lot of the time we would go a week or two without washing our uniforms. We could wash clean �socks and trying to wash the clothes the best we could with just some soap. We’d have our own laundry detergent that we brought with us, powdered stuff, so it wouldn’t spill or leak everywhere. Then we’d have ammo cans and just dump some soap in there–– bar of soap–– or something like that, and wash it in an ammo can and rinse it out. I would set bottles of water out in the sun, let it heat up all the way, and then at night I’d walk out there and wash by myself behind one of the buildings. Interviewer: “What did you do for food?” We had pretty different food. We had pretty good food. We had two cooks who would come out and they would cook breakfast–– we didn’t do lunch–– and then we’d have dinner. That was usually pretty big. There were some snacks and just bags of M&Ms and Skittles in the–– we called it the chow hall. It was just a big room with some picnic tables and you could go in there and grab some cookies or drinks. (1:06:06). Interviewer: “Did you have Army cooks or were these civilians?” We had two Army cooks. We had one cook, Shelby–– I think it was Sergeant Shelby–– and he was really good. He really liked actually going out to the Operating Post that we had up on the hill. He thought it was really cool to go up there and he wanted some pictures and stuff like that. He wasn’t too big on gunfire and stuff like that, so he thought it was cool, the couple of times they let him go out and actually walk up the hill when we would do rotations. We would do three days of patrols, three days of guarding the OP or security with the ANA at our compound. I was up there a couple of times where he would actually load our backpack full of some energy drinks and cookies and candy and small packs of beef jerky and stuff we would get. He actually carried it up there himself to give us something, as a thank you. And he always–– he did a really good job of giving us some really good food. He really put some effort into it. Interviewer: “So it wasn’t just life on MREs the whole time you were there.” Not the whole time. Interviewer: “Now when you were at Tillman, was there more or better food or pretty much the same?” I think the food was about the same. It was a lot bigger there, from what I saw. I was only there [for] a couple of days. I think the food was about the same. And then we left and went back [and] we pulled security on one of their OPs–– [and] for about a week, we just had strictly MREs. Then, after that, we got picked up by Chinooks again and we got taken out into the valley ahead of the convoy, and we lived out there for about five or six days. I remember I was out there for �Thanksgiving day, 2012, and I was up on the OPs when I saw my friends were out doing patrol. And the Little Bird came in and the Pilot swooped in and I thought he was going to shoot at me or something like that–– because I didn’t have a radio, he scared me. He came in and hovered a couple of feet over my head and reached out and gave me a bag of Kit-Kats. And that was our Thanksgiving dinner. So, I saved all the candy and gave it to everyone else who came back–– let them have it. That was pretty cool–– getting to reach up and grabbing something from somebody. (1:08:14). Interviewer: “And you’d mentioned calling home. Now, did you have your own cell phones or–– what did you have?” We didn’t have cell phones. We didn’t take cameras out with us. The CO didn’t want any cameras out when we were on patrol, so I had a couple of pictures within the COP and then we had–– I believe–– four to six phones, land-lines, inside of the Command Post. Then we had, I believe, eight to ten computers. Interviewer: “So you could send an email home?” We could send emails, calls. I usually tried to call every day or two–– [to] talk to my wife for about half an hour. Say, “Hey,” and “what’s going on?” Interviewer: “What time of day would you call. I mean, was there a civilized time to call, because the time difference was so big?” I wanna say there was a six or seven hour time difference, so I believe I would call towards the evening–– probably around three or four o’clock–– before I ate dinner. Sometimes later in the evening if I waited late enough. We didn’t really have a specific bedtime unless we were on patrol or something like that. Later that night I’d call her at eight or nine o’clock my time–– a couple of hours before we went on patrol. If we were going out for more than a couple of days I would be like, “You won’t hear from me for a couple of days.” [You] could order stuff online. The Wi-Fi wasn’t good enough–– we didn’t have Wi-Fi but the computers weren’t good enough for Skype or anything where I was at originally. So, I only got to do that right before I came back–– but I would order flowers and stuff like that. Interviewer: “Now, when you do get discharged–– so we’ve made it into 2017–– what do you do from there?” I had about 40 to 45 days of leave, so I got out in the beginning of December 2014 and then I was on terminal leave until January 30, 2015. And then I got some disability check–– that was pretty small–– and I got severance pay when I got out. I knew I wanted to go back to school and �school had started in January, but because I had terminal leave I didn’t calculate that in. I couldn’t get registered for school and then summer classes they weren’t really doing. So, I decided just to wait till August of 2015 to actually begin school. I didn’t have a whole lot of time with my wife and daughter in between training and deploying, so I just spent the whole summer with them. We went on a road trip to Georgia and up through North Carolina and got to go to the Belmont Estates [and] spent some time together. (1:10:55). Interviewer: “Now, did you have any trouble or odd things as you’re readjusting to civilian life? Or was it so gradual in a way because of all of the medical stuff and what you were doing that it kind of eased you out?” It was definitely a lot different when I came back from deployment–– trying to reintegrate. Even though I had that decompression time, just getting readjusted to civilian life. I remember driving a car after I came back. I’m used to driving pick-up armored trucks and stuff. My wife had bought me a truck when I came back–– a small pick-up. So, it was just trying to get used to driving a pick-up and being able to actually get up in the middle of the night and I want something to eat, I can go get whatever I want. But then it was–– when I got out and we came up here in Michigan, it wasn’t a whole lot of–– to me, it wasn’t a big difference. I was kind of ready to get out and ready to sleep in whenever I wanted. But, then after a while I got bored pretty quickly–– you get used to that routine. Interviewer: “And then, where did you choose to go to school?” I chose to go to school at Ferris State University. I took a placement test right before I got out to see where I would place education wise and decided to go to the Heavy Equipment program up here. (1:12:11). Interviewer: “And now you’re basically graduating?” I’m almost done. Next week will be my last day of classes and then I’ll be walking at commencement on May 11th–– about two weeks from now. Interviewer: “And then you’re going to move up from here?” I took a job with Hewitt Construction and I’m going to be going out near Washington D.C. for the first couple of months–– working on a project there. They’re actually set up a lot similar to the Army, where I just move as the work goes. So, I could go from D.C. to Washington state, Texas, pretty much anywhere in the country. So, working long hours, a couple days off, so it’s a lot similar to the Army. �Interviewer: “Now, to think back over the time you spent in the Army, how do you think that affected you or what did you take out of it?” I got to learn a lot, especially being in the infantry. It’s a lot different than some of the other MOSs, your job speciality, where you just come in and you’re doing legal work or something like that. You’re just with a bunch of different guys [and] you get really close to each other. Then, when you get out, there’s nothing else to compare it to. I know some of my friends got out and tried to do a lot of sports and stuff like that–– to try and find something else that matches it. Even being here with all the other veterans, it’s hard to relate to anybody else. There’s not anyone else I have really met that has really gone through the same thing as me. I did meet one guy for a couple months, and he graduated. So, it’s hard to readjust. Interviewer: “So, unless they’re in the infantry in that kind of thing, they’re not going to have had those experiences. But, they’re also not the guys who you spent that time with.” Right. Interviewer: “Because that’s where a lot of the bonds get formed.” Right. And even when I have met some of the other people, even before I got out, who were infantry, it’s kind of like a small brotherhood. You meet a lot of guys who did the same thing. Sometimes I find that I can talk to other veterans–– especially Vietnam vets–– who were in the infantry and had a lot more [an] active role, I guess. It’s kind of hard to relate to someone who was a mechanic or a pilot–– where we still have something in common, but something’s missing. Interviewer: “Well, you’ve done a very good job telling your story for us. Thank you for sharing it today.” Thank you for having me. (1:14:42). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MancilG2305V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mancil, Gabriel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04 Title A name given to the resource Mancil, Gabriel (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Gabriel Mancil was born on July 16, 1990 in Valdosta, Georgia. He was homeschooled and acquired a GED in March of 2008. After an Army recruiter requested he acquire some college education to qualify for the service, Mancil attended two semesters at a local community college before enlisting. From there, he was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia, for sixteen weeks of Basic Training. In Basic, Mancil attended One Station Unit Training (OSUT) for his first eight weeks before graduating onto Advanced Infantry Training. Mancil was then transferred into Hometown Recruiting before going to Fort Riley, Kansas, where he was assigned to C Company, 28th Infantry Regiment, 1st Battalion, 1st Division and prepared for deployment. In May of 2012, his unit was deployed to Afghanistan and was flown from Kansas to Germany and then Manas, Kyrgyzstan, before transferring to a military aircraft for the final flight into FOB (forward operating base) Sharana, Afghanistan. His unit was stationed at a Command Operating Post (COP) and was tasked with supporting the Afghan National Army (ANA) in addition to patrolling. After six months, his unit was relocated to another nearby, larger COP where it conducted armored and security patrols. Since it was a larger Post, the Taliban fired a greater quantity of mortar rounds at his position, but now, his unit could return fire more effectively since they had field artillery and radar at the Post. At the end of his tour in February of 2013, Mancil was flown back to Manas, then to Germany, and then back to the United States. Back at Fort Riley, he was promoted to Private First Class and then Specialist, but never applied to become a Sergeant because of a foot injury he sustained from the strain of his gear. Due to the severity of the injury, he was deemed medically unfit for service and started the long process of medical discharge in March of 2014. Once discharged in 2017, Mancil returned to college in August and spent more time with his wife and newborn daughter. When he and his family moved to Michigan, Mancil believed he was ready to leave the service lifestyle and enjoy civilian life. He attended Ferris State University for its heavy equipment program and graduated in May of 2019. He then acquired a job with Hewitt Construction near Washington D.C. which, ironically, followed a similar work mentality to that of the Army. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Afghan War, 2001-2021—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cac4aef110206fe59c46d6dcb10c6ee3.mp4 68a1e8e1f95f4e892e6ef7d48e14cf4e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e081c8c3e4a46eec61fb585ca49717ad.pdf 4fb705ea42c1d95b77ed932c2dd0beb5 PDF Text Text Lyssy, Walter Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Walter Lyssy Length of Interview: (1:44:06) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Walter Lyssy of San Antonio, Texas and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born at home in McCook, Texas, a rather remote area. Interviewer: “What part of Texas is that in?” (00:25) Very southern Texas on the Mexican border near the Rio Grande Valley. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you grow up there or did you move around?” I grew up there and then after high school attended A&I University in Kingsville, Texas. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you were growing up what was your family doing for a living?” We were dryland farmers in the 50’s in Texas, which was the time of the drought. So it was pretty tough, we were very poor. Interviewer: “Alright, how were you able to afford to go to college?” �Lyssy, Walter Didn’t really– Couldn’t afford. I had enough money to pay my first semester’s tuition and live for a month or two. I tell everybody I’ve held every job in Kingsville, Texas. Interviewer: “How large was the school in those days?” About 4,000 students and they had ROTC and I joined ROTC and– But basically just had odd jobs running, filling stations and so forth and finally got me a good job at the Kingsville Naval Air Station driving fuel trucks and fueling jets at night. Had a 40 hour week job there and went to school full time. Interviewer: “So you didn’t do a lot of sleeping then.” My joke was I got off from midnight to eight o’clock, the next morning was free time you can do anything you want, like study or sleep. Interviewer: “Alright, now the ROTC program you were in was that an Army ROTC?” (1:58) Army ROTC and back then they were actually by branch and it was Signal Corps. Interviewer: “Okay, so what did the ROTC training actually consist of?” Well you had to take obviously military courses through four years, drill and ceremonies out in a parade field, see Sergeant Martin and clean your M1 rifle every week till he was satisfied, so you got really good at cleaning an M1, disassembling, assembling, and so forth and of course between your junior and senior year you go to a summer camp for six weeks for the intensive training and when you graduate you’re commissioned. Interviewer: “Alright, now was this a place that had a four year ROTC?” �Lyssy, Walter Yes, four years ROTC but it was small compared to like Texas A&M or someplace back then. I don’t remember precisely but on graduation night I think five of us were commissioned, very small. Interviewer: “Alright, and now did the military pay for any part of your education or was this just–” You got– At your junior and senior years I think we got $40 a month, paid for cleaning your uniform and haircuts so no they didn’t– It wasn’t for money. Interviewer: “Okay, now then how did you feel about the prospect of going in the Army, was that something you wanted to do?” Yes, it was a job back then things were tough. Interviewer: “Alright, so what year did you graduate from college then?” (3:42) 19– In May of ‘65 I graduated from Texas A&I. Interviewer: “Okay, interesting time to go into the Army at that point, how– Were you aware at all of what was happening in Vietnam with the Vietnamese?” Yes and back then people were in ROTC and they saw Vietnam coming and they figured out how to get out of ROTC and then the Army changed its policy and you had to sign up some paperwork that you were a private in the Army reserves and if you decided to, for some reason, just quit you end up being– Coming into the Army as private. So there was incentive but that didn’t affect me, I was hoping to get commissioned and go into the Army. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so now once you receive your commission, what do they do with you?” �Lyssy, Walter Well the first thing you do is go to officer’s basic training at Fort Gordon, Georgia and then you get your first assignment. My first assignment was Fort Knox, Kentucky and training center. Interviewer: “So then just to back up a little bit, what do they do in officer’s basic training?” Most of it is related to Signal Corps, the equipment and that sort of thing, plus you know the normal PT tests and training and so forth. By then you’re pretty well trained as far as drill and ceremonies and all that, that’s already done. Interviewer: “Okay and what kind of equipment was the Signal Corps using at that point?” Well actually the radios at that level were the PRC 25 which it had one vacuum tube in it which eats a lot of battery and that was changed to the PRC 77, or the transistors version, it did the same thing although you’ll talk to almost all of the Vietnam vets and they’ll all tell you about the AN PRC 25. (5:55) They were actually carrying a PRC 77, it looked exactly the same everybody thought it was a PRC 25, that’s what they called it. Interviewer: “Well they also talked about carrying around extra batteries, did the 77 still need those?” Oh yes and the batteries were big and heavy and were really an important thing to make sure that everybody had a fresh battery, but even before that when they were still PRC 25s they ate the batteries a lot faster because they had a vacuum tube which uses a lot more power so the Army changed that to a PRC 77. Interviewer: “Did you also do stuff, learn things that had to do with coding and anything like that, encryption?” �Lyssy, Walter Oh yes, yes and in my time the 2nd 506, which we’ll talk about, that was a big deal having a secure radio and codes. Interviewer: “Alright, so now you– And so how long was the training at Fort Gordon?” I don’t know, six or eight weeks. Interviewer: “Okay, so not a big thing then.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so then Fort Knox, Kentucky then is your next stop?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, what do you do there?” (6:55) It was– Fort Knox was a major training center back then for basic training, that sort of thing, but I was in what was called radio school or teaching radio operators, 0-5-B was the MOS, they became radio operators and many, many of them went to Vietnam. Looking back at it now I think it’s silly cause the majority of the time was teaching them international morse code and well if I had to do it all over again I would go back and take that training time and teach them how to be a company commander’s radio operator and do stuff like calling in airstrikes and– Cause that’s what the real job was almost none of them used international morse code and that was probably 2-300 hours of training. Interviewer: “So where would they use international morse code, that if you went to Europe or something for a big headquarters?” Basically most radio operators didn’t do it, now Special Forces did it a lot, and we’ll talk about that later, but most Army radio operators did not use international morse code but it was still in �Lyssy, Walter the training program and they had to pass 13 words a minute international morse code and it was taught to them in a very rudimentary way, was pure memorization, dit dah- A. Okay and then write dit dah- A, dit dah and then you had to write B dah dit dit dit. Interviewer: “Okay, now how long did you spend at Fort Knox doing that?” Two years. Interviewer: “Okay, and during that time I mean did you want to go to Vietnam or not go?” Oh I was fully expecting to go to Vietnam, my commitment was for two years I could’ve just left for Knox and I’d fulfilled my military obligation and I’d probably been put in the reserves and sent home. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay but you stayed in?” (9:00) But I stayed in. Interviewer: “Alright, why did you stay in?” I liked the Army and patriotic reasons and so forth and time to go do my thing. Interviewer: “Okay, so what thing did you go do next?” Well I got orders for Vietnam, except it didn’t say “Vietnam” it said “Thailand” I said “Where’s Thailand?” So the summer of ‘67 at the Travis Air Force Base and get on this contract airplane which is totally full of Air Force and there was I think four of us Army people on this airplane and we fly to Bangkok. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did they do with you once you get to Bangkok?” �Lyssy, Walter We got to the airport in Bangkok, everybody unloaded, all these little blue Air Force buses came and picked up all the Air Force guys, they left, we stood there looking at each other “Well what do we do?” So we finally figured it out. Interviewer: “Well did someone come for you or did you just stand around?” They told us to take a taxi and go to Chapya hotel in Bangkok which we did and that was a contract hotel for Army and we went in there and made contact and pretty soon started getting assignments. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you get assigned to?” Well my initial assignment was to go to Korat 501st Field Depot, which is a large depot operations, logistics, bringing in supplies into Thailand and they found out that I had secret clearance, which was unusual back then. (10:52) So the depot petroleum officer and I had to get together and spend the first month writing a secret plan on how to distribute petroleum to the air bases in Thailand which is– Lots of air bases in Thailand, yes so we did that and when that was finished then I was sent to Sattahip, Thailand which is on the coast south of Bangkok, where the U.S was building a large port facility and all the supplies were coming into Sattahip. So I joined, from there I was– I’m still a 1st lieutenant and I joined a 596 quartermaster company petroleum depot. There were only two petroleum companies in the Army and that’s one of them and I was the signal platoon leader, company’s supposed to be spread out 200 miles of pipeline with teletype and all this sort of thing. Well we weren’t deployed like that at all, we were all in one spot, you really didn’t have a lot of signal to do so next thing I knew I was also the company motor officer running the motor pool, which is a big motor pool. Big 5,000 gallon petroleum tankers, deuce and a halves, rough terrain forklifts for moving large drums around, and just a lot of equipment. Interviewer: “Okay, was that all staying on the base or was that going back and forth along the pipelines?” �Lyssy, Walter Well when I first got there what the mission– Well our mission was to handle all petroleum products for Thailand but our real mission was bringing in JP-4 for the Air Force and they would come in in tankers and when they first got there you used submarine cables to attach to the tankers to pump the JP-4 off the tankers and into pipelines and Utapao air base and then just at Christmas time we got our petroleum pier built which is a new modern pier and port pipelines you can actually drive a jeep out on it and had the big anchor points for tankers to come in and get tied up and we’d pump off of that but this is– What’s interesting is that a lot of air power came out of Thailand for the Vietnam war. Places like Udorn, Subang, Takhli, Nakhon Phanom, Korat, and all these basically fighter bombers scattered out throughout Thailand and they burned a lot of fuel but in southern Thailand next to us, next to the port, was U-Tapao Air Base and UTapao had B-52s and KC-135 tankers, and these tankers would take off and be airborne and there was really basically no fuel at all these air bases in Thailand. They only had minimal amounts for testing engines and emergencies, so that F-105 took off out of Korat loaded with bombs and so forth, he took off and immediately went to the tanker which came out of U-Tapao, got a load of fuel, he went north, did his mission, came back, hit the tanker, got fuel and landed and the whole war went like that. (14:33) So we were pumping U-Tapao and we averaged 1.2 million gallons a day pumping JP-4 to U-Tapao that was our main mission and we– When we first got there– Eventually we had electric pumps and we had a very large tank farm, one tank it was 100,000 barrels, huge you know other tanks and we handled, you know other products too, gasoline and diesel and that sort of thing but it’s primarily JP-4 and ships would come in, we’d offload them, they’d take off go back to the Persian gulf and get that load of fuel, another ship would come in. They’d hold about ten million gallons each and that was a week’s supply and we’d pump that all to U-Tapao. So we just basically I had the signal platoon, the motor platoon, and then I became the company commander, totally out of my field but that’s what it is. Interviewer: “And were you still a 1st lieutenant at that point?” No, just got promoted to captain and became the company commander. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Very good, yeah now what’s daily life like out on– You’re on the big base right?” No. Interviewer: “Oh somewhere–” The Army had a small camp at that point called Camp Vayama, it basically didn’t even have a fence around it, water buffalos just wandered right through our area. Interviewer: “Okay so they build you a fort facility but not really a base.” Yeah, eventually there was a new Army post, Camp Samae San but at this point it hadn’t been built yet. So ours we just had wooden hooches, pull a rope it lifts up a piece of tin for your window but compared to Vietnam it was super good. We had showers, a little building called the officers club where you could eat, it was okay. Interviewer: “Do you employ local people to work for you?” (16:35) Yes, every hooch has a house girl that shined shoes and took your fatigues down to the river to beat them with rocks and cleaned them and brought them back and, so yeah it was– Life there was okay. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have any security concerns?” Yes, particularly at the air base in fact there was, if you read back in history, they actually got onto U-Tapao and damaged some B-52s. Interviewer: “Okay, now were these Thai communists or were they Vietnamese infiltrators or do you not know?” �Lyssy, Walter I don’t know a lot about that. Interviewer: “Okay, but where you were there wasn’t any particular worry.” No, we were probably 30 minutes away at our Army camp, eventually the new camp was over closer to U-Tapao but our little camp was kind of remote and all by itself. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so how long did you spend there?” I stayed there about– I have to recall, eight or nine months and then I went to– Well what happened the Army petroleum officer out of the Pentagon came, some Air Force colonel, and he found out that he had a signal commanding one of his petroleum companies and he was very upset about that and so pretty soon there was another captain, took over and I went to Korat and worked in logistics and maintenance, finished my tour. Interviewer: “Okay, so when did that tour finish?” (18:16) In July of ‘68. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’d been in Thailand at the time of the Tet Offensive then?” Yes. Interviewer: “Alright, did that have any reverberations where you were?” Not really, no. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so July ‘68 now you go back to the states and you– Had you decided by this time to really make a career of the Army?” Yeah, I was pretty well staying in. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Okay, alright so what’s your next assignment now?” I got orders to go to Fort Bragg to the special warfare school which is the Special Forces school. Interviewer: “Okay, so did you take Special Forces training or were you gonna work at the school?” No, I was just assigned to go there and I got there and the next thing I know I’m in the Communications Committee of the Special Forces school, back then called Special Forces training group. We have Special Forces groups there’s 1st group, 2nd group, 5th group in Vietnam so forth, and then there’s a training group at Fort Bragg that teaches the officer training and the various skills in Special Forces, weapons, engineer, signal, operations, those sorts of things and we were doing the communications portion of that. Interviewer: “Alright, so what does that actually consist of?” (19:37) Soldier comes, there are exceptions to this but, basically a soldier comes in the Army goes to basic training, then he goes to Airborne school, and then he goes to Special Forces basic training and then after that then he goes to his MOS training, then he’d come to us now and he’s already been to Airborne school, he’s had some jumps already and then he becomes a Special Forces radio operator. Now he’s learning international morse code but he’s gonna use that cause when you go to a day camp in Vietnam you’re sitting there using international morse code and he’s– And so that was really important training for them there and an important thing is at the point I got there this was already going on but, you know how do you learn international morse code, the dits and the dahs and so forth. Well there was a fellow out in California, his name was Judson Cortish, he was not a communicator or anything else but he was– Had a PhD in how the brain works. So his way of explaining this is he says “You know if I said do you know music?” “No, I don’t even know how to read music.” “But if I played Happy Birthday on the piano and hit all these keys and so forth and made a mistake you would know it wouldn’t you?” I go “Yeah.” He says you listen to a song on the radio and you like the song by the second time without even �Lyssy, Walter thinking about it, you know the words, how’d that happen?” So he came up with this mnemonic method of teaching international morse code and you basically put on a headset and there’s a male voice talking to you and he says “Alone” and you write down A and he says “Brake cylinder” and you write down B, says “Daredevil” you write down D and what it is like the world “Alone” it’s a short syllable and a long syllable, dit dah. Then you hear “Brake cylinder” which is dah dit dit dit, but you don’t pay any attention to the color, you just listen, write them down, you know. Very few people in the world know this story by the way, okay so you listen to this male voice telling you this and you’re writing it down you have an attenuation knob and while he’s saying the words there’s a little bit of code synchronized with this and as you’re bringing the voice down you bring the code up. Okay and you get to a certain point and you start out at 13, 15 words a minute this is not boring I mean just– You’re writing and then you changed the male voice to the chipmunks, little chirpy voice [chipmunk noises] and the code is there and then pretty soon you bring the chipmunks down, you bring the code up and pretty soon the chipmunks go away and you’re copying code and I actually did this at lunch hours and I don’t know two, three weeks I learned code and you know most people struggle for many, many hours trying to learn this but it all ended up that he had his way of doing things and some Army people had their way of doing things and they were not the same so they told him to take his toys and go home and the world lost that. (23:10) So guess what? Now our teaching today’s back to the old way of doing things, yeah but it’s just an interesting story. We had one soldier, he was a prize soldier, he learned at 15 words a minute solid in 12 hours of training, now most people would take probably like 7,500 hours this guy just– It worked for him–Boom! He went through the tapes, learned it said “He’s ready.” 12 hours of training that guy he could code, very unusual but at the school not only do they come in, they learn the code and then they learn equipment basically they learn a lot of basic how to build antennas, how antennas work, which antenna to use because they’re going to be using an AN/GRC 109 radio transmitter and a receiver with a hand crank generator. There’s no microphone there, this is all to build an antenna and tap out your code. In the last– I got there with my boss the Colonel Johnson he had just finished commanding CCM in Vietnam which is back then very classified, putting the guys in North Vietnam and all the recon teams and so forth. So I get there and he’s there and he says “The last two weeks of the course is a field training exercise in the mountains of North Carolina called Windmill Falls, Pisgah National Forest and Colonel Johnson said “Why are we trucking these �Lyssy, Walter soldiers up there? These are Special Force soldiers, you go up there and establish your drop zone.” “Yes sir.” Sergeant [unintelligible] He knows that area, knows people, we go up there and make relations with a farmer John Dooley, not Tom Dooley but John Dooley he has a farm and it’s small, it’s in the mountains how do you find a drop zone hid in the mountains but the train would drop down 600 feet, go across the farm and then go back up 600 feet and you’re flying at 1,200 feet to drop you know and it’s a nice farm, kind of flat but it had barbed wire fences criss crossing it with steel posts, creek on two sides, an old apple orchard but– So we established that drop zone and Air Force could never find it, cause you’re flying low it’s just mountains you know but I knew how to find it so I could direct them and we’d find the drop zone and then we started jumping. You’d only get four guys out the door though that’s how quick it was, so did that for a couple years using that drop zone and, I don’t know, imagine nowadays what it would take to do something like that. Well back then you’d just go out there and do it, that’s the way it was. Interviewer: “And then did people have problems with the barbed wire fences or things like that?” (26:37) Nope, these guys were– Had enough training by now, we had MC-1 maneuverable parachutes, kind of maneuverable, had like a 42 square feet hole in the back and you could slip your risers and they were well briefed and they knew this was a challenge for them. First time they’re not on a great big drop zone, you know at Fort Bragg or something like that, nobody ever got hurt, we all got them in, jumped in and then from there they would go out to the field and they had a four man team, build their own shelters out of ponchos, they had to get on the ground with that hand cranked generator, build antennas and translate a message encoded back to their buddies at Fort Bragg, on an a frequency at a time, and then on a different frequency at another time, they had to receive a message and decode it and if they were successful in this it would give them some grid coordinates and a password for them to get food because they only had three meals, no C rations. So their next meal was in their copper slab and there’s a lot of funny stories there but they did it and they had to learn to communicate from high ground, low ground, down in Linville Gorge, different situations, different antennas. It was good training, they learned a lot. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Okay, I’d expect a group like this would have pretty high morale, probably motivated guys?” Oh yes, they’re all volunteers. I guess I was the captain in charge but I had a group of NCOs that were all Special Forces, trained, experienced, I learned more from them from any school would ever teach me. So I got a lot of training while I was with that unit, all kinds of stuff. Interviewer: “Alright so you’re there now, you know late 60s, 1970-71?” Yes this was still– This is ‘68-70. Interviewer: “Okay, but that’s a period when the anti-war movement at home was heating up quite a bit. Does that register with you or where you are or were you not really worrying about it very much?” It registered with me but it didn’t really affect me that much at that point, you know we had a war going on and we had a lot of good soldiers getting hurt and killed. Interviewer: “And the community around Fort Bragg would’ve been– Was that fairly pro military?” (29:23) That’s no– Yeah, that’s Army community. Interviewer: “Right, okay so now you’ve got this for two years and so– Now did you want to go back to– You want to go to Vietnam because you hadn’t gotten there?” Oh I fully expected to go to Vietnam, and I got the orders. Interviewer: “Alright, so when do you go to Vietnam?” �Lyssy, Walter July of ‘70, course individual replacements, get on airplane, go to Vietnam, get off the air plane and go to this place, Bien Hoa I guess it was and there were three signal captains on this air plane and we go there and there was another signal captain that was there already and a big bulletin board. You go look at the board when your name comes up it tells you what your assignment’s going to be. Well that captain was there already he got an assignment 101st Airborne Division, woah poor guy. So we go back a few hours later, we go back and there’s all of our names, oh we’re all going to the 101st. Interviewer: “Alright, so why is it poor boy if he’s going to 101st?” Well 101st we knew then was the only division left in Vietnam that was fully engaged in fighting war, everybody else, the 4th Division was being taken down and you know people were going home. Nixon’s bringing the troops home, except for the 101st was still up in I Corps and fully engaged. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so how do you get from Bien Hoa up to I Corps?” (30:58) Well at night they wake you up in the middle of the night and grab your duffle bag and you get on the C-130 and we took off and we started flying north for a long time I said “My God we gotta be in China by now.” Well they flew us all the way to Dong Ha and we stopped there and some people go off and then it flew back to Phu Bai and got off the air plane and there we were at the Camp Eagle. Interviewer: “And that’s the headquarters for 101st?” Headquarters for 101st, next thing they do is transport you north to Camp Evans and you’re gonna go to screaming eagle replacement training. Everybody had to go to service training before you can join a unit out in the field, which when I look back now it was important. Interviewer: “What did that training consist of?” �Lyssy, Walter Firing weapons, even like the 90 millimeters recoilless, the M-60 machine guns, your basic M16s, getting refamiliarized with all these weapons, a lot of air mobile as we knew it back then, you actually jump on helicopters and fly out and do air assaults just to learn how that’s gonna work, get familiar with artillery, bringing in artillery, cobras, rockets, all the things that are gonna be happening to you once you go out to the field. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long does that last?” A week, and at that point Ripcord was going on this is– I think I got out of service training on the 21st or 22nd, you can see– You could actually when the chinook crashed at Ripcord we’re sitting in the stands looking at this column of smoke up there. In the evening you’re watching chinooks haul in damaged helicopters, a lot of activity going on. Interviewer: “Okay chinook crash is July 18th and then–” That would make sense, 18th, 19th, 20, 21, yes. Interviewer: “And then the 23rd is when they actually pull off the base entirely.” (33:34) Yes, 23rd is when they pull of the base, on the 23rd I was finished training and I had to go to Camp Eagle to see the division signal officer who does all the assigning of signal officers and so we went there and it was Colonel Smart was his name was his name and he says “You’re going to the 2nd 506th Infantry.” Then he told me about Colonel Lucas being killed that day and all the casualties and Ripcord and how they pulled off and so that was the 23rd, next morning I joined a unit. Interviewer: “Alright, so let’s– So basically what happens, you go out to join the unit?” You go to Camp Evans and you go to this unit and they had just pulled off Ripcord the day before and things are not normal. You start hearing all these statistics and stories and talking to people, they’re all talking to each other and first thing that happened was a memorial service, �Lyssy, Walter lined up the battalion, had a little stage, Chaplain Fox, the battalion chaplain gets up, the rifles stacked, boots, half the battalion crying they were just an emotional wreck, I mean it was bad. Interviewer: “Who was in charge of the battalion at that point?” John C. Bard was our new battalion commander. Interviewer: “Okay so he’d already been installed, or just arrived?” Just arrived, back– Major, I’m gonna say, King was the XO of the battalion, he had just come back from R&R in Hawaii, when I got there I reported in to him Colonel Bard was just, I don’t know if he was there yet but he was coming aboard that day. So I go to report to the XO, the battalion XO, he looked at me and he looked at my signal flags and he jumped up and ran out the room. I look around “Well what’s this about?” Because prior to that John Darling was the signal officer, he was a West Pointer and he got killed, Ripcord, and Captain Hopke was sent by division temporarily to fill that slot. (36:18) Well Hopke was short, he was going home so I’m there to replace him but you can imagine this major what his dying commanders did, what his operations officers did, all these people are injured or scattered to the four winds and of course personal accountability is really an important thing and he looked at me and he says “Oh my god, what did I miss? Where’s my signal officer?” So he ran out and he came back saying “Okay, Hopke’s going home. Okay, good on you guys.” Yeah so he got that done, it was crazy there was a little officers club, you go in there and you hear all of these stories and names and experiences and “Good lord what kind of unit did I join here?” The last 23 days there’s something like 72 guys killed and 250 injured and I’m gonna be in this unit for a year? Course it wasn’t like that after that it– Interviewer: “Alright so what was Colonel Bard like?” Colonel Bard was a Rhodes Scholar, Westpoint graduate, Rhode Scholar, brilliant man and I wanna say a few things but I want everybody to know that I admired him, he’s a super guy just a brilliant guy but he had very little common sense. Okay and you’ve seen it, you’ve seen like �Lyssy, Walter brilliant people who had a hard time tying their tire but he was– And don’t get me wrong he was a good commander and he really cared for his troops and that sort of thing but I thought he was in the wrong place, he was put there to punch his ticket, get his ticket punched and he didn’t last I think I’d have to go back and review the records but he was there long enough to get to know who we are and move up to be a divisions operation officer, a big job and I’m sure he’s very good at it and brilliant at it but he wasn’t a dig in the dirt infantry guy, you know type of guy. Interviewer: “So what actually now happens with the battalion once you join it, do they rebuild for a while or?” Well you have to understand now about half the battalion is new, truckloads of soldiers are coming in and we got a new battalion commander, a new operations officer, super guy Frank Willoughby is now the S3 and he is– Go back and start the Battle of Long Bay which is way up north, he was the A company commander, Special Forces guy at that camp, at that battle where he got attacked with tanks. Interviewer: “Yeah, they were overrun at that point.” (39:22) Overrun, had the tanks sitting up on the top of his operation center, Marines wouldn’t come and get them, Army had to come in there and dig them out of that, it was a terrible battle. Yeah but he was my boss, he was the S3, so you have all these new people and we’ve got– Your orders now are really only stand down which is– Try to take some of their troops to the beach to give them a little break, time to clean your weapons, clean your radios, make sure everything is working right, new batteries. Refurbish the battalion but one thing you can’t do is let this battalion sit in this emotional state now, sit in arrear. So I don’t remember– It was just days later that we air assaulted out at Katherine, Firebase Katherine, so here we are again out in the jungle’s twisted way. Interviewer: “Alright, now were you normally going to be with battalion headquarters wherever that was or would you be in the field with the battalion?” �Lyssy, Walter I was– I spent almost all my time in the field with the battalion at the battalion headquarters at the firebases. Even– I mean to the extent of even when they went one back on– Back to base camp for a week I actually stayed with– At the firebase to keep things– One thing I could always tell was this little story, when I first got there the idea was to have electricity done by little gasoline generators 1.5 and 3 KW generators and those generators were never designed to run 24/7. They’re little, you know pull a rope and crank them up and, you know but that’s what supposedly what’s going to power our radios and all that sort of thing in the top. So it wasn’t– Can’t tell you exactly how we did this but I can up with a 45 KW diesel generator. We stayed there about a month then we moved to Rakkasan and I brought that generator into Rakkasan under a chinook and placed it, sand bagged it in, got droves of diesel fuel and we ran– I provided– I was providing electricity for the firebase, I had fluorescent lights at the TOC in Rakkasan and then you make sure you put your lights in important places like with your artillery, in your operations center and so forth cause they can do a much better job if they have lights and so forth. So yeah besides commo I did lights. Interviewer: “Alright, now what was the battalion doing at that point, I mean they’re on these firebases just general patrolling?” (42:37) Yes, the typical thing you established a firebase, put the battalion headquarters on the firebase, bring in the 105 and 155 artillery plus the various other sundry things that happen, engineers and that sort of thing on the firebase, primarily working on the bunker line and I had to learn with my fellow officers– And don’t get me wrong now when you join an infantry battalion, particularly there in Vietnam, and you’re the commo officer, yeah you’re the commo officer but you’re infantry too. You’re gonna be right in the middle of it all, filling sandbags, getting your crew, and securing things and after the lessons of Ripcord perimeter defense is pretty important and you have to learn how to do that. You don’t just go out there and throw some concertina wire, you know it’s– Rollie Rollison was Delta Company commander in Ripcord and right after that he became the S4 but I considered him as one of the experts on knowing how to build that perimeter defense, taking three strands of concertina and nailing it down to the ground about yay high and then putting more concertina on that and nailing it down and down so it’s a solid barrier, plus the claymore mine and the fougas and the fighting positions, you make it really– �Lyssy, Walter Because we’re dealing with sappers, as the Ripcord story goes sappers were a big part of that too. So you have to really learn to do perimeter defense and I was a big part of that. Of course I did all sorts of things at the time I was the TOC officer at night, walked the bunker line inspecting fighting positions, doing all those infantry things too besides being commo, you know you just don’t sit there going “Oh no I’m the commo officer.” That doesn’t work, so you learned to do all that sort of thing. Interviewer: “Alright, now how long did you stay in that job?” Well I started in July and until the next spring, I believe till about the 1st of March, something like that. Interviewer: “And then what did you move onto from there?” I became a signal officer for 1st Brigade, 1st Brigade signal officer. Interviewer: “Okay, and where were they based?” (45:15) Camp Eagle, 1st Brigade Camp Eagle, 3rd Brigade is Camp Evans, 2nd Brigade was off wandering some place. Interviewer: “Alright, now what do those duties consist of now?” Where at? Interviewer: “At the brigade.” The brigade? Interviewer: “Yeah.” �Lyssy, Walter Well you’re overwatching the various battalions and what they’re doing, and of course distributing all the codes for secure radios and what we called back then the S.O.I, signal operations instructions, making sure all that gets done, talking to the bridge commander, future operations which, well he’d call me in and tell me what we’re going to be doing six– A month, six weeks from now we had big operations that went out back to the A Sau and so forth that he had me pick where he should put his brigade headquarters out there so he can talk back to Camp Eagle and cover their end and he was going to– Which took a lot of work because you’re doing basic map reading and profiling mountains and we’re predicting where the radios are gonna work and not work then actually jumping on the helicopter and flying out there and sitting down on the ground and testing it, you just sort of did that. Interviewer: “Now were you still there when the Lam Son 719 operation took place?” Oh yes, one of my additional duties while I was with the– Well after we first got to Katherine, Colonel Bard said “Get on a command control ship and run over to this sister firebase and you’re gonna learn how to be a beacon drop officer.” “What’s a beacon drop?” So I go over there and the commo officer there was a beacon, and he taught me to do beacon drops. (47:22) Interviewer: “So explain what a beacon drop is.” It’s a way to drop bombs in your area, your AO, when the weather is bad and there’s clouds and the normal sets of air can’t come in and bomb for you. The Navy Marines flew A-6s out of the main and that air plane would carry 22 500 pound bombs and then I would be at the firebase and the beacon drop officer has a PRC 41 UHF radio, a weird looking thing with a big fat antenna, to talk to them directly and a transponder. A transponder simply works with radars just like the air liner flights today they have a transponder in the airplane where they beat the signal and it shows up on radar. Well this is the opposite, I’ve got the transponder with me and it’s A-6 you know there two people in that airplane, the pilot and there’s the electronics officer with radar screens and they’re very sophisticated electronics, and it’s off set bombing from my transponder and I would feed them data, direction to the target and degrees, minutes, distance, and feet– Let’s see if I remember all this, elevation, differentials, and his flight path that I wanted him to fly on and �Lyssy, Walter he would gather all this information and go out about 15 miles and then turn– And you also had to authenticate the transponder to make sure you’re looking at the correct transponder but I would switch codes, you could switch codes from alpha through foxtrot I believe it was, and it’d come back at you and you’d do that a couple times “Okay, got you.” They’d go out 15 miles and start heading in and you’d see them on radar sweeping your transponder, it’s beeping, you’re talking, and then they had 22 bombs and you could vary things like you could drop all the bombs on one spot at one time or you could have a set length of 3-400 yards. You could have first bomb on target, center bomb on target, last bomb on target, you can vary all these sort of things and he would drop bombs and it’s the way you get a lot of bombs through bad weather and I got because– now the secret of this thing is that your batteries are charged for your transponder and your radio. Either one of those failed and mission’s gone, well I had my 45 KW generator and I knew how to charge batteries. So I was always ready and I got a reputation of being a reliable beacon drop officer because they would, you know– It’d go someplace else and if it failed they’d divert them to me, so I was just dropping bombs all over the place. Interviewer: “Alright, now this came in response to my asking about Lam Son 719–” (50:35) 719, okay 1st of the 506 was up north already, 2nd 506 where I was at was still, I think we were at Firebase Jack at that point but all of a sudden word came down for Captain Lyssy to get your beacon drop equipment together, select one soldier to help you carry equipment. Helicopter coming you’re gonna go north to the 1st of 506 because they don't have a beacon drop officer and they’re completely surrounded and they’re getting bordered heavy and they need bombs. So it’s Freddy Pitts a black soldier from Mississippi, good soldier “Ready? Pack your ruck, let’s go.” Sure enough first they flew us to Rakkasan, next morning we got a huey and we went into the battalion headquarters up on a ridge by the rock pile and sure enough we were surrounded. You could actually hear the enemy talking at night, claymores going off all night and we’re digging our hole and get there. So I was there to put in beacon drops and Freddy Pitts told me if I could ever get him back to Camp Evans, he’s stay the rest of his life and never complain, get him out of there and it was pretty bad I remember bringing in an eight inch artillery just over our shoulder, same ridge, there’s no enemy on the next one. Just pounded that thing with eight inch �Lyssy, Walter artillery and sent a squad or two down there and boom! They got hit with homemade claymores and so forth, vivid memory of the medevac hoisting up and injured soldier with border rounds flying, dropping through his blades. He took off and turned hard and the injured soldier hanging on it into a jungle penetrator about 45 degrees, then you don’t know I don’t know what happened to the guy you know, and a couple guys got killed that day bringing it back. It was a bad place. Interviewer: “Okay, now was this sort of– Was this battalion in a position where it was kind of supporting the operation into Laos at that point?” Yes, Americans were up north fighting the enemy while U.S helicopters and the south Vietnamese Army were heading into Laos. We finished that mission and funny, you know things were crazy we caught a huey back to Dong Ha [unintelligible] lot of traffic and flagged down my trader truck, Army, the cab was full of junk I climbed in there Freddy sat on the fifth wheel and we went back to the front gate of Camp Evans and came back to Camp Evans and I remember we had captured some homemade claymore, big I mean explosives just full of all kinds of nails and stuff. I brought that back just to show and tell cause sure enough the 2nd 506 went up there later, it was a pretty bad place to be, yeah. (54:10) Interviewer: “Alright now during the course of the year you had in Vietnam did you get an R&R?” Yes. Interviewer: “Where’d you go?” That was in April of– After I’d gone to 1st Brigade, it was towards the end of my tour and went to Hawaii, meet the wife and she’ll tell you I was the last guy on the last bus, she had just about given up. I finally wandered off and that was I guess pretty bad emotional situation back then, seeing everything I’d seen a so forth. We actually got to Honolulu, took a flight, went to Kauai to Hanalei Bay on the north shore and woke up the next morning and it was raining and there was �Lyssy, Walter jungle everywhere, turned on the T.V and there was John Wayne with a machine gun so hold on, I’m supposed to be on R&R. No, it was good, we had a good time in Hawaii. Interviewer: “Alright, are there other things about that Vietnam tour that kind of stand out in your memory?” Well of course you see and do a lot, all kinds of situations where you come close to being killed and also that was not from enemies but just being there, when you have that many soldiers, that many weapons, you know and RPG firing across the windshield of a loach. We had to distribute what we called the funny papers because everyone was required, specifically right after Ripcord, to have a secure radio and there are codes that they have to punch into this– Well we call it the gun the KYK 20-A and you punch it into the KY-38 that provides the encryption for a secure radio but you could only give out seven days and each unit including recon team had to have a secure radio. So you have to visit every unit every week to give them these codes and usually, typically you take a smoke grenade which comes in a cardboard canister, you open it, you take the smoke out, you put the funny papers in, tape them up and tape them to the smoke so when you’re in the helicopter and you see the guy on the ground you pop the smoke and you try to hit him with it because if you lose it, you got a big problem. (57:05) Now the division’s gonna have to change, so you don’t lose these funny papers. There’s some stories of myself and another fellow commo officer hanging in a tree get down and skid, get down in that tree to get it back, yeah so distributing those, all that, it took a lot and then helicopter guys come up and you show them all the locations, you can’t just go pop smoke at every friendly location cause you just located all the friendlies. So you do a whole bunch of false ones too you just throw smoke out everywhere. Yeah, so yeah getting that done a lot of helicopter time, a lot of helicopter time just constantly flying in your AO and so forth and the pilots show up and they get their briefing and when you show them where the 51 cals are the enemy the enemy has they don’t like to go there. For good reasons, but yeah you spend a lot of time doing that, no one ever– Well the division didn’t keep battalions in those mountains in the winter time cause you get the winter months, but boy this year we’re gonna keep one battalion out at Rakkasan, and of course that was us and the 1st of October is started raining and it rained for all of October and all of November and in the middle of that you look back at your weather history, there was a typhoon, a big typhoon that �Lyssy, Walter came through at the same time and the reports are it rained 104 inches on us and we ate C’s almost the whole time and we didn’t get out of there till the end of December. December was all fogged in too and basically we had to walk out to get out of there and brigade commander– At that point we had a new brigade commander and he was upset with soldiers not having dry socks. That’s always been a thing in the Army, always keep a pair of dry socks and started to have foot problems and you tell your sergeant major to go out there and teach those soldiers how to have a pair of dry socks and sergeant major comes back and he says “There may not be any dry socks.” When it rains constantly, day after day, week after week, and then he says “Okay, Bard you go out there and show them.” Pretty soon he sent his own sergeant major and his own sergeant major came back and told him “There’s no way, nothing’s going to be dry, everything is wet.” And it sure enough was, we came out of there at the end of December and I remember particularly Charlie Company having to carry him off a helicopter to the aid station her feet were hamburger. Yeah, took ten days before they could walk again without us, gosh there’s so many things that stick out in your mind about that, I guess first casualties, that sort of thing. Interviewer: “How much contact did you have with the South Vietnamese military?” (1:00:10) Not a lot, we pretty well operated independently and they were wary in this sort of thing but specifically us the battalion headquarters, I don’t know what even Vietnamese people because there’s no population in these mountains, it’s us and North Vietnamese. Interviewer: “When you were on the big bases were there South Vietnamese there?” They’d go on big bases, that’s how– Well at Camp Eagle when I was brigade signal officer there was some Vietnamese there but not many. Now Camp Evans there was no, what you call, house boys or house girls or any of this, we didn’t have any of that– Interviewer: “And there’s no villages outside the base or anything like that?” �Lyssy, Walter There were and I guess they ran a laundry some place, amongst us soldiers even in our base areas nuh-uh didn’t have them. Interviewer: “Okay, this tape is about up so we’re gonna pause right here, rewind and reload. Alright we were kind of tying up some pieces of your Vietnam tour, one question I’ve got is about the morale of the troops in the field when you’re there. What was that like because you joined them after the battalion had been decimated and rebuilt and so forth, what impression did you have of the soldiers?” Well, you know it was a mixed bag, we still had really good soldiers with good attitudes and so forth doing a good job but then there was always the element of commanders having a hard time with who’s gonna be in the field and who’s gonna have to get not to be in the field. That was a really big deal if you could get back to the base camp but stay back there so they play that game and your problem with of course marijuana was back in the base camps was a big deal but in the field, I won’t– I’m not gonna sit here and tell you there was none but the troops pretty well policed themselves out in the field because they knew they were in a situation where, you know if you screwed this up you’re gonna have a sapper come in there and get you killed. (1:02:37) So they wanted those fellow soldiers to be on their toes and so forth. So it kind of took care of itself out in the field but problems back in the base camp. I spent very little time in the base camp, I pretty much stayed out in the field, I take a small crew with me but of course you had to run the switchboards, run the battalion and brigade radio nets with my radio operator sitting there to talk and keep the battalion logs going and that sort of thing. So that was a big job of keeping that going and I had some really good signal guys radio operators that did that sort of thing. Interviewer: “And were you aware of problems in the base camps with racial issues or harder drugs or things like that?” Yes, there were, I remember one soldier going berserk and shooting their area up and so forth and you know those sort of things but I’d just hear about them because I was out in the field. Interviewer: “Yeah, it’s not really what you were seeing out there.” �Lyssy, Walter I’ll tell you another little story, was right after Ripcord we were at Firebase Katherine and we were only there for– I don’t remember precisely, maybe less than a week when– And I was out trying to get a light bulb in the artillery battery area for them to help them out and of course we didn’t really have any supplies trying to use copper wire to put some lights, give them a light bulb and I do it myself. We’re digging trying to bury this cable and a huey helicopter which was working for a battalion in an adjacent area DARS got disoriented at night, saw a light on our firebase and decided it was the enemy with flashlights. So he came through machine guns blazing and strafed our firebase and I got caught right– That was my first time getting shot at, I didn’t know what was going on I had all these little red firecrackers bouncing all over the place all around me and so forth till about a second later I figured out this is not good and I rolled over and got inside a bunker but that day we had received our quad 50 which was each firebase were so far north that you had a quad 50 for 50 caliber machine guns for air defense. If something does come over to DMZ it’s getting some fire power and that nervous quad 50 team just test fired their quad 50 against the side of the mountain and the disoriented helicopter went around for another pass was coming in. (1:05:45) The quad 50 guys were on the quad 50 ready to shoot this enemy helicopter when a radio operator who had some experience he was monitoring brigade net and he put two and two together, he heard what was going on outside he’s real sharp and he gets on the radio and calls him off, or else we would’ve had a helicopter shot down that night. They did hit one soldier who had just survived Ripcord, he was in a fighting position, he had seven days to go before he goes home and he took an M-60 round in his groin and up through the intestines and Dr.Harris, Jim Harris was out battalion doctor. So run down there, I’m helping with the stretcher, we pulled him up through the barbed wire and get him up by the battalion headquarters for medevac coming in. Nothing a doctor could do for a guy with that type of injury but the medevac was there, it’s dark now, it’s night and we get him in the medevac and as they’re taking off they’re barely 10 or 12 feet in the air when they start– Hovered into the clouds, cause clouds come down at night and they just did that, of course they just fly down the mountain and go away and they got him in and Dr.Harris a few years ago from now found out who that soldier was and that he lived, and of course in these times a guy gets injured he’s gone that’s the end of story, you don’t know. Well apparently that soldier lived and I’ll always remember that soldier laying on the stretcher and he grabbed his buddy by the shirt, pulled him �Lyssy, Walter down and said “You find out who’s flying that helicopter.” I don’t know whatever happened to that but he was a little hecked that he survived Ripcord, was getting ready to go home, here comes a helicopter, shoots him. There’s lots of those stories, terrible. Interviewer: “Okay so now you kind of get to the end of the Vietnam tour and so when do you leave Vietnam?” July of ‘71. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and where do you go next?” I go to the signal officer advanced course in Fort Thomas, New Jersey and almost everybody in that course– And now there’s 50 of us– Boom! So we’re gonna have I think it’s nine months, ten months of advanced course, signal advance course. Interviewer: “How do they fill that nine or ten months?” (1:08:30) Do what? Interviewer: “What do they do?” Oh well all the branches of the Army have those advanced courses, that’s how you go from captain to major and gosh you get classes on all kinds of stuff, you know from basic electronics through all the signal equipments and organizations, you know all that sort of thing it’s just a normal thing but by then it’s not getting to be– Going into ‘72 and after nine months of training the Army is having a reduction in force and half that class got rifted. After nine months of class they’re gone. Interviewer: “Now did you have some seniority on them because of when you got your commission?” �Lyssy, Walter Yes, I was late getting into the advanced course because of my assignments, the way they went, so I was actually the class leader as a senior guy in that class. So yes, when you take all these guys that just got back from Vietnam and put them in a class interesting things happen. They’re not the best behaved students around, most of them funny things happen you know. So it was a lot of fun and then following that I became an instructor for a few months and then I got selected and attended the course that was basically taught by AT&T but at Fort Monmouth to become a communication systems engineer where you study everything from telephone switches to microwave systems, triple scanner systems, cable systems, that sort of thing for, you know the opposite of the green box with the tactical equipment now you’re talking about the commercial equipment. Interviewer: “Okay, and was this a period where they were computerizing things or miniaturizing things or not so much yet?” (1:10:55) Not so much yet, although yes we had the old IBM 360s I guess they were with the punch cards, that sort of thing it was that phase, it was– During that course I remember we had some civilians with us too and we had one from Hawaii and his unit gave him a calculator, calculators had just come out and pretty soon we all had calculators but he has a sophisticated one you know and so “Wow look at this thing!” Just punch numbers and it calculates for you, what was that Texas instrument set up? T– Something or other it was just– Yeah, so that was a big step in technology there just to get a calculator. Interviewer: “Alright, and now with this training once you’ve got it what do you do with it?” Got assigned to the COPAC, communicationations, electronics, engineering and installation– Interviewer: “Pacific?” �Lyssy, Walter Pacific, so we’re stationed in Hawaii, some military commanded by colonel, lieutenant colonel, deputy commander, a bunch of captains, and about half civilians, several service people engineers and so forth. Interviewer: “Were you still a captain at this point?” Still a captain and our main mission was to rebuild comm systems in Korea because Korea had been neglected all during the Vietnam war and all of their systems were really old and falling apart and so forth, we needed to rebuild Korea. So a lot of equipment was taken out of Vietnam and Thailand, sent to Okinawa, refurbished, and we bought lots of new stuff and we basically rebuilt the backbone of Korea. This is before satellite and so it’s– The world’s split up by Army, Navy, and Air Force as to who’s responsible for communications and so forth but we had our troop system coming out of Japan, shooting across in the southern part of South Korea. Did a microwave system that went throughout Korea mountaintop to mountaintop and down to post camp stations and telephone exchanges, cable systems, you know I’ve been to almost every place in South Korea that a G.I can go to, every mountaintop, every post camp station, so I got a lot of Korea. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you went to Korea how long a– Would you go for a few days at once or weeks?” (1:14:00) Sometimes it’d be two weeks and I remember one time it was I think three months, you’d go in and yeah you’re chasing down projects. You do site surveys, see what’s there, come back and get into the big plan of what needs to be replaced or equipment, once equipment comes in you have installation teams that come in and install, then Q&A people behind that to test things, get everything going, cut over from old systems to new systems. Pretty complicated process to fix a country like that. Interviewer: “Now how did Korea compare with Vietnam in terms of your impressions of the place?” �Lyssy, Walter Well to me Vietnam was just my unit in mountains, infantry unit fighting the war, as far as the country goes I know very little about it except that spot you know. I didn’t travel around Vietnam at all, I don’t think I ever went to a village or had zero experience like that with the, you know you see a lot of other G.Is “Oh yes.” and they go to dinner and they– You’re the guest of honor and you have to eat the head of the chicken and all that, I don’t know anything about that. We were out there in the mountains eating C rations. So Korea of course I experienced a lot with the local people cause we’d go to areas where G.I aren’t normally there, they had a town with a mountaintop next to it with a microwave system and so you’d intermingle with them and they were– G.Is don’t normally stay so forth, so yeah. Thailand was to me where I really related with a lot of people, totally different, that’s my favorite place those people really loved their country and they loved their king and their queen and it’s just a different place you know. Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean do the Koreans seem to recognize why you were there?” Oh yeah, sure they, you know you hear all the stories about Korea, what they are is they are strong people. (1:16:22) Physically strong, those short legs and put an A frame and lift up a drum of fuel and walk off with it, it’s unbelievable. Interviewer: “So at that point it wasn’t really developed in the manner that it is now, now it’s a very modern industrialized country with better internet than ours.” They didn’t have cars and so forth, now they all have cars but they don’t have roads so– But no it was– But we traveled and we had some Toyota Land Rover type vehicles that we drove ourselves. We took the blue train from Seoul down to Busan– Actually flew with Korea airline from Seoul to Busan, strange because you put the people in the back of the airplanes and there’s no door to the cockpit, solid wall, bolted, they come in through windows. Nobody can hijack that airplane with doors like that, take the Greyhound bus and then you take what we call the kimchi bus in the remote areas that– Really rough roads, get back in there, get all that stuff accomplished, yeah so got a lot of Korea time. Interviewer: “Okay, now how long did you spend in Hawaii?” �Lyssy, Walter Three and a half years in Hawaii, loved it. Interviewer: “Okay, and were you going back and forth to Korea the whole time or just for part of it?” Korea and other places, Taiwan, guys would go to the Philippines, Japan, Okinawa. Most of my work was Korea, I became the deputy commander after a while, I got promoted to major and became the deputy commander, the last year I didn’t travel much other people’d be going out, staying in Hawaii at that point. Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re in the Army in this period when they’re kind of– Vietnam is over, the Army is downsizing, shrinking and so forth it’s become an all volunteer Army. Did you notice any effects of those things aside from other officers getting rifted?” (1:18:33) Oh sure, after Hawaii command staff college and then at the Fort Ord, California 127 Signal Battalion was obviously part of the 7th Division and lot of soldiers, big battalion and one of the, it’s now full armed volunteer Army, standards for coming in the Army, what do we call that Cat IV? The category IV soldiers. Interviewer: “What does that mean?” Low IQs, very low standards, all kinds of soldiers coming in, the Signal Battalion was one of the battalion in the division who had females. So we, in our battalion of maybe 600, we had– We were at actually I think 110 females. So you had that mix also, so yeah lots of troop problems, I always thought it was silly but the division commander required the battalion commanders to have a 3x5 card in their pocket with every soldier who was coming up for reenlistment. We had to know all their names and interview them and beg them to stay in the Army, and a lot of them we didn’t want in the Army, so it was kind of nutso. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Now did the Signal Battalion get better qualified personnel than one unit or?” Not really, they were poorly trained, come out of the schools– We had all our– We had, you know, all our troop problems, lots of troop problems and good soldiers too, don’t get me wrong we had great soldiers, male or female they all come like the same. I remember our soldier of the year in our battalion was a female soldier, she was great she got out of the Army and a few months later she married the platoon leader. Oh, didn’t know that was going on. Interviewer: “Did the female soldiers, I mean did having them available did that help you in terms of having people with talent to get stuff done or did they perform about the same level the men did?” Same level, really really bad ones, really really good ones, just like the guys they come in big and small, smart and dumb, all kinds yeah. Interviewer: “So what years was this that you were there?” (1:21:20) ‘78 to ‘81. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the attitude– You’re out in California, what’s the attitude of the people in the community to the soldiers and the military?” Well of course this is Monterey, California they’re used to having the military the Naval Postgraduate School was there, beautiful facility, basically I guess they really enjoy having the economy of the Army there but would just as soon not have the Army there. I remember all the meetings you’d have to go to to see if they would give permission to shoot mortars, forget artillery that makes way too much noise you can’t do that. It’s a silly place to have an infantry division, it rains in the winter time, the grass grows up 18–Two feet high in turns brown in the summer it’s crispy, any little spark is gonna set off a forest fire so you can’t shoot any weapons, you can’t do anything like that. So all the training has to be accomplished far away at Yakima, �Lyssy, Walter Washington or Fort Irwin, California and it takes a set of tires just to get there. So I mean it’s just– So yeah it’s a nutso place and guess what? It’s closed and it’s gone and if that makes sense, it’s not a good place to have a real Army infantry division, training was– Basic training, that sort of thing yes but not, you know you really can’t do very much out in the field at Fort Ord, California without burning it up. Interviewer: “Alright, and then now from here what do you do?” Well then I got assigned to Fort Sam Houston, Texas going to Texas finally. Always volunteered for Fort Hood which no one wanted to go to and I could never get into but that’s typical of, you know requesting something in the Army. So then I got assigned to Fort Sam Houston and I was director of telecommunications for Army’s Health Services Command which is the command that control the medical school plus all the hospitals from Alaska to Panama in the continental United States, that sort of thing. Interviewer: “Now has the technology advanced some for you?” (1:24:00) Oh yes, so now we’re in the early stages of computers, desktop computers, and let’s see I got– I think I had a desktop computer in ‘83, our commanding general at Fort Huachuca basically send us all signal guys a message saying “Got these things called desktop computers are coming, there’s gonna be one on every desk and there’s no school. I recommend you go get one and start training yourself.” And the Army had just had one of their first contracts out with Zenith– What was it called the Z-100? It was a dual five and half inch floppy disk computer, you had to load the operating system each time you turned the computer on and you could do word processing and a couple little things. So we started from there, just yeah train yourself cause you know you’re out there in the leading edge and nobody else knows either. So I was bringing in the first computers in the Army and then we– I guess my main accomplishment there was to do the early work with our computer guys and the medics had their own ADP corp at that point to do medical automation and working together with them we did trying to bring on systems in hospitals. First ones were a pharmacy system, an appointments system, a system called CAPOC, computer assisted practice of cardiology where you could actually do an EKG and send the EKG to �Lyssy, Walter somebody that knew how to read it and send the results back so you could use his expertise other than being there where he was. So we had these basic systems and we were installing them at various beta sites and hospitals, testing them and getting them going, those were early stages to what today is the composite health care system I believe it’s called, something like that which automates everything in the hospital, medical records to pharmacy to whatever. So it was a lot of work and we enjoyed it. Interviewer: “Sounds like an interesting job.” Oh yeah, it was good. Interviewer: “And was the Army getting a lot of– Were you getting kind of better quality people in there to do things?” Oh sure, well now you got a big medical headquarters that you’re dealing with, pretty top notch people. Interviewer: “So it’s not a single battalion.” (1:27:00) And the– Yeah the Army’s getting better too, yes in the early days of volunteers and category IVs and that sort of thing those were tough days trying to– And the turn over back then, our turn over in the 127 Signal battalion late 70s early 80s it was 125% a year. Interviewer: “Which means people are staying on average less than a year, isn’t it?” Yes, so you get this company, platoon and start training them and three months later half of them are gone, all these new people are coming in and you start training all over again and you just constantly– And this was at the point where it was decided that we’re gonna show the Russian and we’re gonna have, what was it? 16, 17 full divisions, we’re gonna be a big army. Well it’s kind of a fake army because I mean you didn’t have your basic equipment even issued to you. Those battalions didn’t have some of the major elements of multi-channel equipment that we �Lyssy, Walter needed, it wasn’t even issued. So what do we have here, you know but it worked I guess, we won. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so when do you finish then at Sam Houston?” ‘85 and I had my 20 years in and I was thinking I’m gonna retire and so forth and then the Army gave me this, put this little carrot out there to go to Belgium to NATO headquarters, SHAPE Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, with a specific job. Interviewer: “Okay and what was the job?” To go over as a comm systems engineer now to be in charge of building basically the bunker for SHAPE, SHAPE war headquarters. Huge project, three buildings, 80 meters long, four stories high, buried under ground under very tough conditions and to be where NATO was going to fight it’s war, fight the Russians from basically what that was all about and so. Interviewer: “And what sort of team did you have to work with there?” (1:29:40) Well this is a joint assignment, we have Army, Navy, and Air Force from 15 nations all together in one headquarters. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did that go?” My joint team was all U.S Army Signal Corps officers, so that was– It was– Yeah we were all U.S Signal Corps, had a great team, very complicated project. There was an Air Force lieutenant colonel who was the head of it before I got there and I took over from him, he was born in Russia, he was an electrical engineer, very bright and did everything in his head and he left. It was basically like that, probably overstating that but gosh there was no master plan. All these contractors bringing in all these boxes under their arms and all these sophisticated systems going on all over the place and now we got to put it all together and everybody was laughing at us saying there’s no way in– This is not gonna happen, you know there’s no way you can do it. We �Lyssy, Walter did it, basically it’s built just outside SHAPE headquarters, got the above ground headquarters for all 42 generals and staffs, our offices, and now you’ve got this underground bunker next– It’s right next to it cause when General Bernie Rogers was the SACEUR the decision was we’re gonna go and hide this thing in the den in the forest and so forth with satellites and we’re going “You’re not gonna hide this thing not with a project that size.” And he said “Build it right there.” and pointed out his window and that’s where it was built and so basically you have these doors, a lot of security and when the balloon goes up certain people from the above ground headquarters come into the bunker, close the doors I guess everybody else is expendable and they fight the war from there. Luckily we haven’t had to do that, I have no idea what the situation has to be, I don’t think anybody knows how much it cost to do that project because you’re basically dealing with– And the budget guy that worked for me too, he’s a great, super guy, Notre Dame graduate he would have to go to Brussels and appear before the committee to get the money to do the next step sort of thing and he just did a terrific job of it, he never failed to come back without– You know and it was all done good and we finished it, we got that project finished before I left in three years, it was cut over and ready to go. Interviewer: “And this is another case where you’re living in a different country, how did people there view you?” (1:32:50) Well you’re living on the French border in southern Belgium, french-speaking who pride themselves a little bit better than French in cuisine. It was no problem at all, very good, good relations yeah but you know when you work at a place like SHAPE with all of these generals and people from all over it’s funny because they all laugh at the Americans cause Americans are working like crazy and they’re not working so much, taking their one month vacations. I know when we first got there I had my desk across the other’s, desk to desk with an Italian lieutenant colonel and of course Americans for lunch time we go do PT, we go run, you got a PT test coming up and you gotta stay in shape so you’re out there and this Italian said “Oh about 11 o’clock I think it’s PT time. Pasta time.” So he goes off to eat, we go run, he’d laugh at us crazy Americans. It’s true I mean when you observe the Americans they’re just working their tails off. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Now while you’re there was this getting to be the point– Was Reagan president at the time?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay and then a lot of the push against the Soviets or the face down sort of thing.” Oh yes, we were really head to head with them, we like to think that our building that war headquarters and getting it completed and ready to go might have had a little bit to help accomplish that because we had a pretty secure place to fight a war from. Interviewer: “And it was at the point where our technology was kind of getting ahead of theirs.” (1:34:55) Yes and we were out spending them and our military was growing strong and this is a compartmented facility where you had a job and you’re allowed to go to that part of the bunker but no place else. Security was really a big deal, took a half an hour just to get in the place and– But I had a go anywhere pass because I was giving the tours because you’re gonna get very high ranking people come from various countries and find out what’s going on, where’s the money going, what are we building, that sort of thing and at one point Margaret Thatcher and President Reagan were supposed to come together, said “Oh my God.” It didn’t happen, you know how those schedules go, it didn’t happen but yes I’ve given some tours to some very high ranking NATO personnel from various countries come through and I take them on a tour of the facility and show them what’s where. It’s a very interesting facility, we don’t talk a lot about it but a lot of stuff is classified yet today I’m sure. Interviewer: “And then when did that tour come to an end?” In ‘88. �Lyssy, Walter Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then you’ve got one more assignment after that?” Yeah from there I was sent to Fort Knox, where I first started, where my daughter was born and baptized in the chapel there and during that tour she was married in the same chapel, one Army career later and became the director of information management for the armor center Fort Knox. Interviewer: “Alright, on a practical level what did that mean?” You’re the chief signal officer but they’re giving you a whole lot more stuff under your wing, ran a printing plant with about 52 employees. The Army has a few printing plants that was one of them still going, obviously you ran the telephone system for the post, every telephone switch and all of those people, you’ve got a communications center sending messages in and out, the library, the record management. Just all sorts of things, anything to do with information is sort of under your purview, a lot of people so yeah. So that’s– That was what you wanted in directors at the armor center, and armor guys are good guys to work with, enjoyed it. Interviewer: “Alright and then the Gulf War happens towards the end of that assignment.” (1:37:35) Yes. Interviewer: “What was your perspective on that?” Well, Gulf War was an armor war and I’m at the armor center so that’s a very busy place, I mean we were working hard trying to assist, you know here, there, and yonder. Everything from personnel to equipment to logistics to tracking stuff, sending people. So it became a very busy place and of course it turned out great and those armored guys would come back and give their speeches, yes they were– Some of them were classified but you learned some, what happened, they did a good job. The big thing of course was our tanks weren’t ready to go and why Saddam allowed the U.S Army to bring all these tanks in from Germany and all these other places and retrofit them in Saudi Arabia and sat there and watched all this till they were ready to go and �Lyssy, Walter finally– You know it took a long time when we first started until we actually came across the border but they all had to be retrofitted not only with some weapons and so forth but primarily chemical warfare, all that sort of thing, it was a lot of work that had to be done so– And it got accomplished and it happened. Interviewer: “And was over very quickly.” Yes, a couple of days and it was over with. Interviewer: “Alright, so what finally motivates you to retire?” Oh it was time, I had done 26 years in. Interviewer: “And it gets harder to go up from each level doesn’t it?” Oh sure. Interviewer: “So lieutenant colonel to colonel was a fairly big jump.” (1:39:30) I don’t know if it’s– The early days in Vietnam and like my job petroleum in Thailand I said “My gosh if this is– I just made captain if this is what I– That much responsibility what am I ever gonna do if I make major?” Well I probably had more responsibility then than I did later because, you know the Vietnam War started and we were all just young guys and lots of work needed to be done and you got a lot of responsibility very quickly just to go get stuff done. I think it worked out pretty good, Americans are good at that. Interviewer: “So when you did finally retire out of the military, what did you do after that?” In ‘91 with the economy the way it was and so forth jobs were very difficult to obtain, I mean you know finding jobs, but we went back to San Antonio, Texas that was, you know we didn’t �Lyssy, Walter go to a job we went to the place we wanted to be and the wife was, even before I had retired, a few months she had already moved to San Antonio and she was a librarian. While we were at Fort Knox she got her master’s degree in library science and got a job in the school system and in San Antonio she was there already, then I came. Our youngest son was– Has already left Fort Knox for Texas A&M University, so we had no children with us anymore and I went back and long story short I invented a chemical paint stripper, I’ve always been a wood worker and that sort of thing and was quite successful at it and actually got it patented and kind of got into that business and did a lot of assisting and not only lead paint removal but historical restoration, Texas spent I don’t know $500 million I believe it was, something like that, restoring old courthouses and the architects would use me and my product but I’d have to go teach the contractors how to restore these beautiful old courthouses. Which were basically built with a lot of beautiful wood work, doors, windows, wainscoting, that sort of thing, it was all varnished, the varnish turned dark and people started painting them, maybe they might have 15, 20, 30 coats of paint. Showed them how to remove all that and restored all the woodwork and then I did a lot of historic buildings across the country. (1:42:25) Did the Calhoun house at Clemson University where they were trying to restore– That’s a historic building in the middle of Clemson with a lot of tradition to it, Calhoun was vice president under Grant and that property became Clemson University and they couldn’t figure out how to do it and I helped that. I actually worked on Robert E. Lee’s house at Arlington National Cemetery taking paint off those columns up front, I thought that was quite an accomplishment. So did that then– Always been a woodworker interested in that and basically now I’m fully retired and I do mesquite woodworking where I harvest mesquite trees in Texas, mill them into lumber, and then build high end furniture items from that which is quite popular in Texas. I’ve just completed a project for a church, an old church in San Antonio building the chairs for the priest and the altar boys for the church and I guess a week from Saturday we’re having a big blessing of the chairs and that sort of thing. So tough project though, God I worked myself to death on that one. Interviewer: “Alright, well the whole thing makes for a pretty good story so thank you very much for taking the time to share it.” Thank you. �Lyssy, Walter � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LyssyW2160V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lyssy, Walter Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10 Title A name given to the resource Lyssy, Walter (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Walter Lyssy was born in McCook, Texas in the early 1940’s and attended Texas A&I University in Kingsville, Texas where he was a part of the Army ROTC’s Signal Corps for four years. Upon graduating from college in May of 1965, he was commissioned. Lyssy was then sent to officer’s basic training at Fort Gordon, Georgia for eight weeks. Following his basic training, he received his first assignment at Fort Knox, Kentucky teaching radio operators. In the summer of 1967, Lyssy received his orders for Thailand and traveled to Korat to work in the 501st Field Depot distributing petroleum until July of 1968. Once he returned to the States, Lyssy attended a Special Forces school at Fort Bragg, North Carolina until he received orders to go to Vietnam and left for Vietnam in July of 1970. In Vietnam, Lyssy was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division and received service training at Camp Eagle where he also saw the events of the Ripcord Campaign. The day following the campaign, Lyssy was sent to Firebase Ripcord as part of the 2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry working as a communications officer for a few months before being sent back to Camp Eagle as a 1st Brigade signal officer and later additionally as beacon drop officer. Lyssy left Vietnam in July of 1971 and went to a signal officer’s advanced course in Fort Thomas, New Jersey for ten months. He then left for Hawaii, where he worked in communications, electronics, engineering and installation in the Pacific. While doing this work, Lyssy frequently traveled to Korea to rebuild communication systems and did so for approximately three years before going on to command staff college and Fort Ord, California in the 127th Signal Battalion until 1981. Lyssy was then assigned to Fort Sam Houston, Texas where he was director of telecommunications for Army’s Health Services Command until 1985. After that, he worked as a communication system engineer building a bunker for NATO headquarters until 1988. After that, he was sent back to Fort Knox for his last assignment, where he remained until he retired in 1991. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01c8ade2d2aa658810e857ee0e39b9d7.mp4 e46488a260b7a74ee3c51d663758950a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97edd028f5d50108a9344456848923ca.pdf cb41375c154e83b050a149ca0e10a923 PDF Text Text Lutz, John Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: John Lutz Length of Interview: (1:02:08) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with John Lutz of Grosse Pointe Shores, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay John start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Brooklyn, New York on May the 24th, 1919. That puts me a little over 100 years old. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you live in Brooklyn or where did you live when you were a kid?” (00:37) When I was kid– Actually before Brooklyn my mother went down to Brooklyn to have her baby, which was me, but actually my mother and father were living in the Bronx, New York at that time. We were there for about four or five years and then moved to a house out in what they call Queens, which is another borough of New York city and I stayed there until I went to college in– I went to MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Interviewer: “Alright, now what was your family doing for a living, what kind of job did your father have?” My father was a manager of a textile company with headquarters in New York City and manufacturing was done, I think it was Passaic, New Jersey. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go to high school?” I went to high school in Queens. Interviewer: “Do you remember which high school you attended?” Yeah, Newtown high school still in operation, I still bring it up occasionally on my computer to see what’s going on there and things are still going just the way I left them. Interviewer: “Alright, and what– When did you graduate?” 1936 and that’s when I went to college. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were just 17 at that point?” Yes. (2:15) Interviewer: “Okay, alright and now did you finish a year early or did you just time it right? Because normally graduate– You start college at 18 but you were still just 17, anyway.” I didn’t time it, it was just the way it came out. Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you go to MIT?” Well basically I guess it was I always wanted to be an engineer and I always wanted to go to the toughest school and my advisor in high school would always ask the students where they want to go, what they want to do, and when I mentioned to them that I wanted to go to MIT I can still hear them laughing and their “Oh you’ll never get in there.” That kind of a thing, and actually I graduated from Newtown high school in Queens with an extremely high grade average which got me right into MIT without any further examinations. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you were good enough after all. Well was Newtown a good high school as far as you can tell?” Yes, at the time it was very good. It’s of course, like many inner cities– And that I’d consider kind of inner city– Interviewer: “It is now.” The quality of education has, I think, deteriorated I don’t think the high school is quite as good as it used to be. Interviewer: “Okay, but you did well enough that MIT just went ahead and took you. Okay, now and then when you got to MIT did you find that you were well prepared for the classes or did you have to catch up?” (4:18) No, I wasn’t well prepared but I had to really work at– Work very hard in order to keep up, most– I would say a good percentage of the students that went to MIT went at least a year, maybe two years, to another college and then transferred in. So they had quite a background advantage over me, but I squeezed through. Interviewer: “Okay, you got through, alright and what degree did you take?” I think it was just a bachelor’s degree, basically in automotive engineering. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and what year did you graduate?” 1940. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you graduated?” �Lutz, John The funnest job I took was with a company down in Providence, Rhode Island called The Universal Winding Company and they had quite a program for new graduates where they would train them in all the different aspects of the manufacturing. We work in the machine shop, we work in the drafting department, we work in the foundry, we do all sorts of– And the background sounded good to me so I went down there until… Let’s see I’m just trying to figure out now what happened then, this, that job was in Providence, Rhode Island and just about every weekend I used to go up to Cambridge and see my old buddies and visit and so forth, and the word got around up there that one of the professors that I had, his name was Carl Fenstrom, was appointed the general manager of a newly formed shipyard sponsored by Newport News shipbuilding company, which was in Newport News, Rhode Island but– Interviewer: “Well Newport New is in Virginia.” It was Virginia, but this ship yard was being built in Wilmington, North Carolina and when I went down there to look at it the gentleman that was showing me around pointed to the empty acreage down there and said “We’re gonna build a shipyard there and we’re gonna build liberty ship because we’re gonna be getting in a war and we’ll need all the ships we can to get the personnel and the war material over to Europe.” (7:40) So that sounded interesting and I stayed down there for three years until I got a little antsy, I wanted to get involved in the war, not build ships back home. So I went up to Raleigh, North Carolina and signed up at the Navy station up there as an ensign, and they sent me to Princeton officer training school. Interviewer: “Okay, I want to back up a little bit and fill in some of that time period.” Sure. Interviewer: “Alright, so were you already in North Carolina when Pearl Harbor happened?” Yes, I was, December the 7th I was there. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “And do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” How I did? Interviewer: “Yeah, how did you learn about it?” Basically over the radio, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright now yow were already– Now because of what you were doing you were already aware of the possibility that we could get into the war cause they told you that.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now were you expecting a war with Japan or were you just thinking about Europe?” (8:49) Would you say that again? Interviewer: “Were you expecting a war with Japan or were you mostly thinking about Europe?” I guess we were thinking of the entire picture, Europe, of course we had already– We hadn’t been officially in the war with Europe but you know we were helping everybody over there, certainly helping Great Britain and then I got– Then I wanted to get involved in that. Interviewer: “So the job that you had basically gave you a deferment?” Oh yes I had a deferment, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, stay there as long as you wanted to.” �Lutz, John Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, now do you think it was still in 1943 when you signed up or would it have been ‘44 before you actually went?” I think I signed up in ‘43, at the end of ‘43 and I think I was called for active duty in ‘44, the beginning of ‘44. Interviewer: “Okay, and now take us back, so where did you do your Navy training? You sign up as an ensign but then they have to train you don’t they?” Yes, I went to officers training school in Princeton– Princeton, New Jersey, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did that training consist of?” Well we had to know all the aspects of navigation and all the other things that went along in trying to become a, you know, satisfactory officer. (10:35) Interviewer: “Alright, on a practical level I mean did they teach you– Were they teaching you anything about seamanship and navigation, that kind of thing?” Yes, absolutely. Interviewer: “Alright, and then did they also– I mean the enlisted men when they come in there’s a lot of emphasis on drill and discipline and all this kind of thing, did they do that with the officer candidates?” Well the officers all went to college and enlisted men went to naval training schools, one where we went to finally pick up our crew was in Camp Bradford outside of Norfolk down in Virginia, that’s where we put the crew together. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Right, I guess I was asking if when they were training you as officers did they do any of the spit and polish stuff that the enlisted men had to do, you know how you wore your uniform, that kind of thing.” Oh very much so. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you finish– And how long did your training at Princeton last?” I think three months, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright and then what did they do with you after you finished that?” Well they sent us down to Camp Bradford down in Virginia. (12:10) Interviewer: “And what were you doing there?” Well we got out, we put on– Well they put our crew together. So we had the crew that was going to be on an LST plus all the other officers that were going to be there, and we trained together. Not only did we have like classroom studies but we had went out on LSTs out in the Chesapeake Bay and practiced running the ship, until finally they send you on your own and we were underway for– Well down the Mississippi river. Interviewer: “Okay well that was when you got your own LST right?” Yes, we got on a train at Camp Bradford and went to Seneca, Illinois where they were building LSTs and then took it down the river Mississippi. Interviewer: “Alright, now at this point what is your actual assignment on this ship? There are several officers so what job do you have?” �Lutz, John I was the engineering officer cause I was the one– I had more engineering training than anybody and some officers you know, and we had a gunnery officer, we had a navigation officer and we had a general officer who was in charge of supplying the ship for example. Interviewer: “Right okay, and so what does the engineering officer do?” Well he personally doesn’t do anything, he tells all the guys what to do but our job was to keep all the machinery running and because and LST’s basic function was to carry troops and vehicles, tanks for example, and just go full speed ahead and ram them up on the beach, open the big doors in front and disembark them. Interviewer: “So you’re responsible for those kinds of– All the machinery and the doors and all of that stuff.” Everything, yes. (14:57) Interviewer: “As well as the engines themselves?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now what do you remember about the trip down the Mississippi?” I guess getting the first taste of being down in the engine room and watching how things operated, what had to be done to make sure they were doing in good shape, couldn’t afford any breakdowns. Interviewer: “Now what time of year were you on the Mississippi? I think you’ve got that I guess in your chronology there.” �Lutz, John It’s probably on here. Interviewer: “Yeah, so I guess you– So it looks like the end of October when you actually started sailing.” I guess October. October, 26th of October we started down yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright do you remember if the– If you had to watch out for running aground or anything since you were sailing in the fall?” Yeah we weren’t allowed, and rightfully so, to navigate it ourselves. The Mississippi is a very tricky river, got a lot of twists and turns, a lot of sand– Interviewer: “Shoals.” Shoals, so you have to take on a pilot, so a pilot stayed with us the whole time steering us down the river. Well his particular section which he was most familiar with, then we get another pilot to take the rest of the way until we go to New Orleans. (17:08) Interviewer: “Okay, now were all of your crew new men or did you have some experienced sailors with you?” Oh I would say 90% of them were new, we had some guys that came from another ship but basically putting the crew together most of them are brand new. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and now you get down to New Orleans, do you get to go ashore there or do you just go off to sea?” No we had to store the ship up because going down the Mississippi we tried to keep the ship as light as possible, I mean there were no guns on the ship, anything with any weight was removed. Any of the dry goods or anything we had was taken off, the guns were taken off, the ammunition �Lutz, John was taken off. So when we were in New Orleans all that had to be put back on again, and then when that was all done we went down– New Orleans is about, I guess, 50, 60 miles up the river, so we had to go down the river into the gulf and we practiced steaming around the gulf in convoy with some other LSTs, practicing landing on the beach, until everybody– Whoever was in charge figured “Okay, you guys can do it by yourselves now.” And they sent us off to the South Pacific. Interviewer: “Okay, now before you left for the South Pacific did they load up the LST with all what you’re gonna take with you across the ocean?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Because on a shake down cruise you probably weren’t carrying a lot of troops and extra equipment.” Yes. Interviewer: “Yeah, so you’d have to go back and get those and then leave.” (19:11) Yeah. Interviewer: “Right, okay now was there anything– Do you remember what you were carrying as you crossed the Pacific, did you have any unusual cargo?” Part of the unusual cargo was whole things telephone poles, we had a bunch of them on board. Interviewer: “And then did you carry– Okay, I guess– So initially you go from New Orleans, you go to the Panama Canal? Did you go through the Panama Canal?” Yes, oh yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and what do you remember about that?” �Lutz, John Well it was very interesting maneuvers going through the canal with the locks and everything, filling them up with water and then emptying them in order to get over the ridges in the terrain. Interviewer: “Okay, now did any of the crew get to go ashore at one end or the other?” Oh yes, everybody got ashore and had a few days down there. I remember taking the train from where we were docked on the Atlantic side, you could take a train and it could take you all the way over to the Pacific side. It was an interesting little trip, it wasn’t a big trip, I don’t know 50 miles or something but it was very interesting. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you have to worry about some of the men going into bars and having that kind of thing?” Well I think we always worry about them and you’re always pulling some of them out and you have to go down the next morning and get them out of jail. (21:05) Interviewer: “Now was that something a junior officer would do sometimes?” No, they had MPs that are permanently stationed there, you know wherever there’s a bunch of sailors around and even the officers, watching out for them that they don’t get in trouble. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you get to Panama and then from Panama what’s your next stop?” San Diego. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you load anything new at San Diego or was that just fuel and food?” �Lutz, John That was pretty much– We were pretty much loaded up by that time and then from there we went over to Hawaii. Now in Hawaii the biggest thing that happened there is we took another amphibious landing craft, an LCT, and hoisted it and it was hoisted up on the main deck and we carried that little landing craft all the way over to Okinawa actually where we had to tip the ship over on it’s side and slide it off into the water. Interviewer: “Because it’s an LCT it’s a flat bottomed craft with a ramp on the front–” Yeah. Interviewer: “But it can carry four vehicles or something or four tanks something like–” Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “So it’s bigger than the little Higgins boats the men land in, so more substantial landing craft but it’s not an ocean going craft.” (22:47) No. Interviewer: “So you were carrying it?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, well–” Well actually they did take them over the ocean individually too. Interviewer: “Okay.” Yeah. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “They’re probably not very fast.” But it took a long time and it was a pretty rough ride I imagine, I never was on one. Interviewer: “Right, okay you’ve got that kind of sitting right there in the middle of your deck, now inside the ship did you have vehicles or– Cause I think there’s something here about having LVTs on the tank deck and those are amphibious landing vehicles.” Yeah, which one was it? Interviewer: “The LVT.” LVT yeah that’s the smaller one that would take maybe just only one. Interviewer: “I think an LVT is a tracked vehicle, it’s like an amphibious tank almost but carries men.” (23:42) Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you’ve got plenty of stuff and– So you leave Pearl Harbor and we’ve got that and then you head across the Pacific from there so kind of late January you leave.” Yeah, down to the Solomon Islands. Interviewer: “Okay, now in the process you cross the equator?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, did your ship have a ceremony for crossing the equator or did they not do that?” �Lutz, John A ceremony? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Oh I’ll say. Interviewer: “Can you describe the ceremony?” Well I think if the Japanese had seen us with the shenanigans that went onboard the ship, they would have surrendered right then and said “Those guys are crazy.” But oh they sprayed you with different solutions like mustard or something like that, wash your mouth you with soapy water, all the Halloween kind of stuff you know, and I know I had to put on some long underwear– We carried long underwear by the way in case the LST was assigned to, say the Aleutian Islands or something like that and I was given the long periscope so I could– Telescope, and my job was trying the find the– What is it, the equator. (25:50) So my job was trying to find that but I never did find it, but it was all those kinds of shenanigans and the flag that was flown was a pirate’s flag, yeah. We would have scared anybody that saw us, wondering what’s going on. Interviewer: “Alright, now did the captain have to go through this too or had he been across already?” No, no, the captain and the executive officer was probably still up on the deck– In the wheelhouse making sure we weren’t running into any other ships because we weren’t by ourselves we were– I forget how many were with us but maybe a half a dozen LSCs. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re sailing in a convoy?” Yes, and we got down to the Solomon Islands by then. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, and what happened once you got there?” Once we got there we again did an awful lot of practicing with other LSC in getting ready for the inevitable landings that were going to take place on the islands MacArthur’s goal was to proceed to Japan with an island jumping process rather than take every island as he went up he was going around the islands. So what we were doing, we were practicing and practicing and practicing again until we finally loaded up with some Marines, I guess they were Marines at the time rather than Army, and went up to another place in preparation for the– Interviewer: “Yeah, Ulithi Atoll is what you’ve got listed here, Ulithi is in the Caroline Islands.” Ultihi. Interviewer: “Yeah.” (27:56) Yeah, Ulithi. Interviewer: “Alright, that’s kind of an assembly point and now–” Yes, very big atoll and a lot, a lot of ships could be anchored in there quite safely and that’s how we were ready to go to Okinawa. Interviewer: “Okay, now tell us about the trip to Okinawa. How large was the fleet around you or what did you see?” Oh it was a tremendously large fleet, I never saw any gathering of ships that was quite that large and were getting ready for April the 1st and then we were– I think they called it Yellow Beach One or something like that. Interviewer: “So they’re listing Yellow Beach Two on the chronology here.” �Lutz, John There’s a two, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and so what does your ship do, what does your LST do initially?” What we did, in that particular case, we had big pontoons on the side of each side of the ship which– Well first thing we do is, I guess get rid of that LCT, and then we dropped the pontoons ff and the pontoons were tied stern to– You know, head on and then there’s bulldozers in the front and they get as close to the beach with the pontoon as you could and then bulldozers would make a ramp like up to these pontoons and if you had tanks the tanks would roll of, if you had armored vehicles they would roll off. Interviewer: “Alright, and you had your LVTs and your Marines to unload.” Yes. (30:16) Interviewer: “Okay, now on that first day did you get fired upon or see enemy aircraft or was it quiet?” No, it was quite quiet the first day and then later on the kamikazes then started coming over. Interviewer: “Well after you unloaded the Marines and the LVTs and so forth, did you just stay at Okinawa or did you go back and get more supplies and come back?” No, we stayed there for a while so that we could– So if the need arose that we could take the Marines off one section of the beach and go around the other end of the island, which we did to another section and dump them off there so that we could go around the Japanese. So we kept doing that for a month I guess it was and then we left there. We damaged our propeller at one place when we were trying to get in on a beach and we ran the ship into a reef and bent several blades I guess on the propeller and we couldn’t maintain full speed. We had to cut back on the speed quite a bit to prevent some further damage to the internal combustion engines, which was �Lutz, John the same engine used in locomotives by the way, about 1,000 horsepower, so we had to go back, I forget where we went after that. Interviewer: “It says the Philippines.” To the Philippines? Interviewer: “To Leyte, yeah.” And had to get into a dry dock and the, I guess the propellers were either exchanged or repaired, in some way they were fixed. Interviewer: “Alright, now before that you had been under attack by kamikazes.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, can you describe what that was like or what happened to your ship?” (32:34) Well that was the most dangerous thing was the kamikazes and of course in the day time they fired on them all the time and actually those LSTs can put up quite a wall of fire. If you can get a whole bunch of them out there shooting at those airplanes you can knock quite a few of them out of the sky and at nighttime when they came over we had what they call fog machines and you put up a blanket of fog where you just, you hid in the fog. They couldn’t see you, you couldn’t see them so you just sat there covered with a whole bunch of fog. Interviewer: “Okay, so what did the Kamikazes do at that point, do they just drive into the fog and hope to hit something?” Well they were just dropping bombs down at that time I would imagine, I don’t imagine– �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Well a kamikaze was designed to go one direction and not actually land anywhere. Now they had regular bombers as well, so they had regular aircraft, maybe that’s what they used at night. So if you don’t remember much of kamikazes plunging into the water at night–” No. Interviewer: “Then probably that was bombers they were using.” No, no. Interviewer: “Yeah, but the kamikazes were going to fly directly into your ship?” Yes. Interviewer: “Now how close did your ship get to being hit by a kamikaze?” (34:00) Quite close, it was a Sid Lenger that his gun crew, he and Goldie as a matter of fact, were on the gun crew that shot down a kamikaze that almost got us and I think as he was– As it was coming towards us the pilot apparently was hit by something and pulled back just to check back on the reaction from the gun and went up and over the ship actually or we wouldn’t be sitting here talking because he would have come right into the side of the ship right where the engine room was and right where John O. Lutz was. Interviewer: “Okay, so as the engineering officer your job general quarter station would be within the engine room?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did you ever observe kamikaze attacks from on deck or were you always down below?” �Lutz, John No, once in a while when it seemed to be a little bit slowing down in the activity we would, a couple at a time would go up and take a look around and then when it got a little more active they scoot down the engine room again. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you kind of– So you’re off of Okinawa during April, you go back to the Philippines to get repaired, now it looks like in your chronology here that you’re there from 29th of April to the 23rd of June. So how did you spend your time in the Philippines then, did you have duties on board ship or did you go ashore?” A little of both I guess, I remember going ashore and the men went ashore. They had a little time in Manila and a couple other– Couple of other islands there, Cebu was one, Mindanao was another one, there was a few islands that we visited. Interviewer: “Yeah, did you see much of the Filipino population or–” (36:40) Yeah, they were going out about their business and– Just trying to think of where, I think things were– I think the people tried to get as long as much, as best they could. In the villages and the towns around there little shanties, little shacks were open for selling goods and fruits and vegetables and things like that. Interviewer: “And did they seem to like the Americans?” Well I think they looked at us like their savior, you know after all it was either us or somebody. Interviewer: “Yeah, or the Japanese.” Right, and they didn’t have much love for the Japanese. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get to Manila yourself?” �Lutz, John Did I what? Interviewer: “Did you go to Manila?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you see there?” Oh a lot of the buildings were just in shambles really they were, as a result of our gunfire and the Japanese gunfire. Japanese had– Was in charge there and then when they evacuated it they blew up a lot of the buildings. Interviewer: “Alright, so you have some time in the Philippines and then you load back up again and so how do you spend the last month or so of the war? So kind of July of ‘45 into August, were you moving supplies?” (38:37) Well we were getting– We were really getting ready to go into Japan you know, the– I guess it was on the schedule we had the next one until they dropped the atomic bomb. Interviewer: “And do you remember hearing news of the bomb being dropped?” Yeah it came in over the radio of course. Interviewer: “Okay, and at the moment it happened did you understand what that meant or was it really only when the Japanese surrender that you figure it out?” I guess we didn’t realize how devastating something like that could be, the biggest thing in our minds was the war was over, we were gonna go home, that was number one. Interviewer: “So before that were you moving supplies around to get ready for the invasion?” �Lutz, John Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now after the Japanese surrender now what does your LST do?” Well then our task became to get the Japanese soldiers back home, the quicker they went back home, the less of a problem Japan would be. They could go to work, they could go back to farming if they were farming, they can go back and try to rebuild some of the factories and they wouldn’t be quite the burden then if we just left them alone. So I think it was a wise mood to get as many as you could, get them back home, and that little booklet that I made there is one whole trip from Palau, which was some islands down there in the South Pacific, taken home this whole group of Japanese soldiers and depositing them outside Tokyo actually. Interviewer: “Alright now in your chronology here that comes in December of ‘45 but you’ve been to Japan already before that cause you went to Yokohama earlier, cause your chronology says that you went to Manila at the end August, picked up the 118th engineer combat battalion and took them to Yokohama.” (41:12) Uh-huh, okay. Interviewer: “Do you remember doing that?” No, I don’t. Yeah and then we went up to another island called Hokkaido, we did that and took a group up there and then from Hokkaido we got a little shore leave. The war was over by that time and I took the train over to Sapporo, Sapporo by the way was headquarters for the winter olympics at one time. Interviewer: “Right, back in 1972 or some six or something like that.” Yeah, you’re pretty much up on your stuff there. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Well I’m old enough to remember that.” Yeah. Interviewer: “So I watched that one on television but yeah okay, so you– Now when you go ashore in Japan how did the Japanese people behave towards you?” I thought they did very good, we had some jeeps that we had confiscated along the way, we had three jeeps on board the ship. We grabbed one to go for a little ride and I remember we were going along, something happened to our jeep, they come running out of the house and fix it or whatever it was, change a tire and– No they were very– When the Japanese emperor said “Stop fighting” they stopped fighting right then and there and we could drive all over with no problems at all. Went downtown Japan, downtown Tokyo, and went through several of the big stores that was still operating. Most of Tokyo was destroyed by the fires, we used to drop incendiary bombs on them, by far we killed more people that way than with– (43:35) Interviewer: “The atomic bomb.” Explosives, yeah. Interviewer: “Did it surprise you at all that the Japanese were as friendly as they were?” I guess it did, it really did because I really– They could have killed any one of us and nobody really would’ve known it, only that we didn’t show up on the ship that night and I remember we– On one little jeep expedition that we were driving around we put a couple cans of sardines in a knapsack and so that if we got hungry along the way we could stop and eat, which we did, I think there’s about two or three of us in a jeep and we sat down on a curb and opened up the sardines we were eating, and the Japanese ladies in the house that was there came out with tea, served us tea, didn’t know whether to take it or not but they were very, very courteous. You’ll find out �Lutz, John reading that little write up that I have there what a perfect gentleman the– I think he was a colonel or a lieutenant colonel– Interviewer: “The Japanese– The commander of the Japanese unit you were moving out.” Right, what a perfect gentleman he was and kept his troops on board ship under control and wrote a nice little letter there, which I got a copy of the original, thanking us for bringing them home even though I think he said three of them died on the way, couldn’t put them all on the tank deck, that was full, so a lot of them just had to stay up on the main deck and the food they had was rice and you’ll see pictures there of our cooks with the help of their cooks scooping out rice into the little containers. Interviewer: “Alright, let’s talk a little bit more fully here about that last trip. So you go down to Palau which is gonna pass the Philippines I guess, or south of there a little bit, and Palau that larger set of islands, one of the islands in that area was Peleliu.” (46:17) Yes it was. Interviewer: “Where the Marines fought a very tough battle but the main island of Palau itself I guess is where you went to and there was a Japanese unit there that had been the garrison that was still there at the end of the war.” Right. Interviewer: “So your job was to take that home?” Right. Interviewer: “Okay, so just sort of take us through the sequence of events, the LST comes into the harbor at Palau.” �Lutz, John Right. Interviewer: “And then what happens?” Well I guess nothing much, they all came down to the docks there and their officers, you know directed them on board the ship, and you’ll see one of our guys there telling them, directing them to go here, go there, and so forth and no problem at all and that’s the interesting thing, when they said “Stop fighting.” They stopped fighting. Interviewer: “What physical condition were they in, did they look healthy and well fed, were they kind of thin?” I guess I didn’t look too closely, at that time I was looking at other things but I would think that one of the problems on those islands where they couldn’t get supplies from their own fleet would be lack of food, although I don’t know why they didn’t fish. (47:38) Interviewer: “Well they might have.” They might have in addition to that but no they were just packing up their gear, folding blankets, you can see them folding blankets and just going on board ship and one little space would be they’d sit down there and I’d be there till they got home. Interviewer: “Alright, now did any of them speak English?” Not that I recall. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have anybody on board who spoke Japanese?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, so you just had to kind of communicate as best you could?” �Lutz, John Now I say anybody, the colonel did, the one in charge did, he did there was two of them that were in charge actually and you can see his picture in there, he’s a very distinguished looking guy and he spoke English, he may have even gone to school in the United States as a lot of them did you know. Interviewer: “Yeah, alright and then when you were taking them back up to Japan did you have bad weather or–” Yes, we did, we had– And I got some pictures of the bad weather we got there and everybody got sick as usual, they more frequently than sailors who are more used to that than the land based troops you know. Interviewer: “Right, so when you first went to sea did you get seasick?” I never got really seasick, no not really bad, I’d feel a little queasy but some guys got really seasick and of course all they wanted to do was lie down. (49:34) Well if they lie down somebody else has to take their watch so we wouldn’t allow that, no lying down the only thing you could do is– And they did that quite often, is they take a gallon– A lot of the food came in gallons, tomatoes would come in a gallon canister and we’d tie a gallon can with a string around their neck so they’d have some place– We didn’t want it in the bilges you know or on the deck, but after a few days of getting used to rolling around– There were a couple lessons, they were either fooling or not, had to be transferred off on occasion, not that particular place but any other place because they were just allergic to it they couldn’t stand it and of course we had a pharmacist made on board ship and he’s the guy who used to dole out the shots and check everybody to make sure they were alright, do what he could for them, he was even also trained to do minor operations. The ward room which is the dining room for the officers had a big table on it where we ate, course that became the operating table, we never had to use it thank goodness but if someone had appendicitis he was at least trained to do something about [unintelligible]. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Now did the ship ever have any combat casualties, did anybody ever get hit with shrapnel or bullets or things like that?” No, they never did. Interviewer: “Okay, so after you dropped off the Japanese prisoners, you get back to Tokyo Bay, unload them, now what happens to you and the LST?” To me? Interviewer: “Yeah.” We were just sitting in the harbor up there, I think we made one trip up to Otaru which was a port near Hokkaido where you could get a train actually and go up to Sapporo and that’s about it. Made one trip up there as I recall and just hung around the harbor a little bit, for a few days until we got word that the Japanese merchant marine was gonna take it over. (52:22) Interviewer: “Okay, so we’re helping rebuild Japan by giving them the LST.” Yeah, they got the LST and our guys spent half the time switching gauges around trying to fool them so they wouldn’t know what gauge to watch in the engine room, sort of nasty but– Interviewer: “Yeah, okay so now from there do you get sent back home?” Yes and I came right home. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did you get home because your ship is still in Japan?” Well yeah, let’s see now… I was– I asked my captain to give me a pass to discharge me right there in Tokyo and I used that to go over to the airport and I bummed a ride home on a transport that was going taking some Washington officials back to Washington actually and I got a ride all �Lutz, John the way to Midway, I guess it was Midway and then the next hop I got was the Philippines and then from the Philippines I got another hop over to outside San Francisco, someplace over there, I forget what the name of the airport was. Interviewer: “Do you think you– So you went from Midway to the Philippines because that’d be the wrong direction?” No, I went to– Interviewer: “Or did you go Philippines to Midway and then home?” Yeah, Philippines– No I didn’t go to the Philippines, no I went to Midway right over, I think it was from Tokyo to midway. Interviewer: “That would make sense, yeah.” (54:37) Midway to Hawaii, Hawaii over to San Francisco, some place over there and then from there to Kansas, Olathe– Interviewer: “Olathe, Kansas.” Olathe, Kansas and from Kansas was the last hop I got and that landed in Washington, D.C, yeah. In Washington, D.C, yeah where I took the train, where I took the train up to Philadelphia because that’s where I was living at the time I went into the service. Interviewer: “Okay, cause I guess I thought you had been working in North Carolina or had they–” No, I had been working at Baldwin locomotive works where we were making engines, actually the same engine was made in these locomotive companies as appeared in a lot of these ships. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Alright, okay so now that you’re out of the Navy, 1946.” I’m out of the Navy. Interviewer: “Now what do you do?” I went to work at the Baldwin locomotive works, yeah I went back to them. Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you stay with them?” Not too long because I had a job offer to go some place else to a company that offered me a chief engineer job and we made piston rings which was in Philadelphia. Yeah, which was finally acquired by Ex-Cell-O corporation, and Ex-Cell-O corporation was finally acquired by Textron which is still– I guess they’re still active in the area here, the Detroit area, supplying parts to the automobile company and that’s it, I retired from there. (57:30) Interviewer: “Okay, now along the way though you stayed in the naval reserves when you came out.” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what happens when the– After the Korean War starts?” After what? Interviewer: “When the Korean War starts.” Oh yeah, well I was in the reserves of course and the reason you stayed in the reserves– I did it for the money actually, I was young and had just got married and every dollar that you could make was welcome. So basically I stayed in the reserve and but then when the war came, you know they grabbed me and put me on the Adria. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of ship was the Adria?” The Adria was a refrigerated cargo ship and that was one big ice box, you know and the job was to go around the Atlantic. The furthest away we went was I guess down in– We went to Africa and we went down to Trinidad was a base, Bermuda, Argentia which was up in Newfoundland, picking up supplies in the Norfolk area, there’s a big naval supply depot in Norfolk. We pick up the frozen goods and everything and take it up to whoever the next stop was. Interviewer: “Yeah, did you go to Europe or just Africa and the Caribbean?” No, we went to– Africa was like Casablanca. Interviewer: “Okay so Morrocco.” Yeah. (59:35) Interviewer: “Okay, but you didn’t go to England or France or Italy?” No, no, no. Interviewer: “Alright, and what was your job on board that ship?” Same thing, engineering officer. Interviewer: “Okay, now were the other officers World War II veterans or were they younger?” Some were and some weren’t. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long was your obligation to stay on that ship?” �Lutz, John Two years. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what does your family do during those two years?” What? Interviewer: “What did your family do during those two years, did your wife just stay at home and–” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have much contact while you were away?” Oh yeah, well see the Adria’s headquarters was Norfolk, Newport News is in that area, that’s where the big naval supply depot was but we would– We were tied up at the Norfolk Naval Base quite a few times. (1:00:54) Yeah, quite a bit and I was in charge of– I guess I was the senior watch officer, I used to assign watches, when officers stood and I always worked it out that I had the weekends of because while their families were in Norfolk because a lot of them were Navy men, my family was in Philadelphia and I used to leave Friday afternoon and don’t get back until Sunday night, or Monday morning early. So I got home quite a bit then, put in my time until the two years was up. Interviewer: “Okay, now you stayed in the reserves after that?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay now– So how long did you stay in?” 22 years. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, because like I said it had you retiring out in 1964.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LutzJ2326V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lutz, John Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08 Title A name given to the resource Lutz, John (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource John Lutz was born on May 24, 1919 in Brooklyn, New York, and attended high school in Queens. He graduated high school in 1936 and went on to attend the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to become an engineer. In 1940, he earned his bachelor’s degree in automotive engineering and eventually went to work for the Newport News Shipbuilding Company in North Carolina. After three years Lutz wanted a more active role in the ongoing Second World War, so he traveled to Raleigh, North Carolina, where he enlisted into the Navy in late 1943. For Basic Training, he was transferred to Officers Training School in Princeton, New Jersey, for three months. He was then sent to Camp Bradford, Virginia, where he practiced operating in an LST (tank landing ship) crew as an Engineering Officer. From there, he and his crew shipped out to the South Pacific. When traveling through Hawaii, Lutz’s ship also took on the cargo of a smaller LCT (tank landing craft) which they transported to Okinawa. For the invasion of Okinawa, Lutz’s LST was outfitted with pontoons, which helped during the unloading of the LCT. Once all the men and gear the ship was carrying had made it ashore, kamikaze pilots became more of a threat as Lutz’s LST began transferring Marines between different beaches and landing points along the island’s coast. Despite a close encounter, his LST was never struck by a kamikaze pilot. While transferring troops to another beach, his ship struck a coral reef, damaging one of its propeller’s blades, and were forced to travel south to Leyte Gulf in the Philippines for repairs. After the Japanese surrender, his LST transferred troops and supplies into mainland Japan to help with the rebuilding process. His ship was also assigned to help transport a Japanese unit, originally stationed in Palau. Lutz was then discharged at Tokyo Bay and took a series of flights back to the United States. In 1946, he went to work for Baldwin Automotive Company and joined the Navy Reserves. After the outbreak of the Korean War, he was called up again and was assigned to the USS Adria. Lutz remained in the Navy reserves for 22 years before retiring in 1964. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/79c9c7e37237def88a26b4dddd194ff1.mp4 8aafa5150e8f9cca9d9560be3429fbc7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f640390f574880e15eacebf7096b9e5.pdf bc87c76a19a01123448af1d4279a5dfb PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: WW2 Interviewee’s Name: David Low Length of Interview: 41:25 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Sam Noonan Interviewer: “Now David, begin with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were you born?” Well, I was born in Hebron, Illinois, on a farm that my dad worked at at the time - well, actually I was born in the town, but my dad was the hired hand at a farm that - big farming community there, big milk producer at that era. Interviewer: “And what year were you born?” 1927. October 29th, 1927. So that makes me 93 years old right now. Interviewer: “I can safely say that you don’t look it. Alright, so you were on a dairy farm. Now, did your family own the farm?” No, no. My dad was a hired hand on the farm, and he got at that time what they called milk fever. Milk would cause his hands to swell up, [or at least] that’s the story that I got. I’m not sure how true it is, but that’s what I was always led to believe. So he could not work on the farm anymore, and his wife at the time was Irene Lowe, and her father owned a celery farm in Muskegon. And that was just before the depression started, so he decided he would come out and work on the celery farm, because he couldn’t work in the dairy industry anymore. So they moved to Muskegon. I was not very old, I couldn’t have been over 18 months maybe or something. We moved in, and then he worked on the farm for a little while but then the depression hit and then my grandfather, my mother’s dad, couldn’t afford to hire him, but at that time they started to get some oil in Muskegon - drilling oil wells. So my dad got a job, in the oil fields and worked in the oil field at that time. Sometimes he’d work and he didn’t get paid, either. So, it was pretty tough when we were kids. We grew up pretty poor, but we didn't know we were poor and we had a good time. I had a good childhood, I can’t say anything bad about my childhood at all. Interviewer: “How many kids were in the family?” There [were] 4. Interviewer: “And where were you in the order?” �I was [the third child.] I have an older brother who was in the Marine Corps, and then I have a sister that is two years older, then I have my brother who is three years older - then I have a younger sister, eight years younger than I am. And then the oil field kinda played out in Muskegon, and the company that he worked for was Sohio Oil Company, which was, uh, transferring some people from Muskegon over to Burnips. And they were discovering oil over in Burnips so he was transferred over there, and we moved to Burnips for a couple of years and then the oil field played out there and he was told that he could either move to Ohio and follow the oil field or he could lose his job but stay in Michigan. So, he lost his job. He didn’t want to leave the - he didn’t want to leave the state. So then we went from Burnips, he moved to Wayland. That was in 1939. Interviewer: “Okay. Now, in Wayland was he doing farm work or something else?” No, we happened to move in next door to the construction contractor who was building a new school in Wayland - now it’s called Pine Street School. So he got a job in construction on the Pine Street School. Interviewer: “Alright, now then did you go to high school in Wayland?” I went to high school in Wayland, yes. I went, well the first two years - then my dad passed away in 1940, so my mother was left with three, four kids, and no real experience [or help] of any kind in getting a job, so she had to do manual work and the war started about that time. There was an egg plant, what they called an egg plant in Wayland, where they candled eggs and there was a … company and what they did was they candled the eggs, they beat them up, and they took them over to the … factory and they made powdered eggs. So during the war she made powdered eggs for the service, and I worked there at the … factory. I was only 14 years old but I got a special permit from the school to work, and we had prisoners of war come over from Fennville - they had a prisoner of war camp over there, German. And they brought them over, we worked in the plant with the guys. (5:34) Interviewer: “Now, what impression did you have of those prisoners of war?” Very good! They were very nice people, they weren’t any different than you and I, we had a little difficulty with the language problem but we were able to communicate with each other. They would bring a busload, two busloads of prisoners over every day and we would work in the warehouse loading cans and milk cartons and things like that, but they weren’t any different from you and I. Interviewer: “Okay. Did that affect how you thought about the war at all, just to see that the Germans were regular people?” �No, not, - not really. I guess I just didn’t, wasn’t cognizant of the fact that that maybe, should color my judgement but it didn’t. All I knew was that they seemed no different than what we were. Interviewer: “Okay, now to back up just a little bit, do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” Not - not really. I remember hearing it on the radio, I don’t remember where I was at the time because I was still pretty young yet, but I do remember them on the radio. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you said you had a brother who went into the Marine Corps.” Yes, he went in, I think in ‘43 he went into the Marine Corps. He went in at 17 and my mother had to sign for him. And he was overseas and in all the Pacific battles: Taiwan [Tarawa], Tinian, Saipan. Interviewer: “And was he just an infantryman or did he..?” An infantryman. He carried a bazooka for a while, and he also carried a flamethrower. That’s about the only two things he told me about his experience. One thing he did tell me that’s a little bit gruesome, I don’t know that I should say it or not, but anyways on one of the campaigns that they had he said there were so many dead Japanese that they took a bulldozer, dug a great big long trench, and just took a bulldozer and pushed them into the trench and covered them up. That’s about the only thing he told me about the service that he was in. Interviewer: “But he did come back in one piece?” Yep, he came back in one piece and he was not affected by the war at all. He seemed to adjust back to civilian life very easily. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you finish high school?” Well, that’s another story. I, uh, end of my sophomore year I decided that I was 17 and I was gonna be drafted, if I kept on, I decided that I wanted to join the Marine Corps. So at the end of my sophomore year I talked to my mother into signing [the papers] for me to go into the service. Which I did, and I went and served a little over a year in the service, and when I came back out of the service I had taken a, what is it, GInterviewer: “GED?” GED, and the service … my high school diploma, got that. So I went back the high school and Mr. Stevie, Rudy Stevie, was the principal, er, the superintendent of the school. And I asked if I could get a high school diploma because of what I did in the service and he said, ‘well, I really �can’t give you a high school diploma but I’ll tell you what I will do -’ he said, ‘you missed your junior year, if you maintain a B or better average for your senior year I’ll give you credit for your junior year and you can graduate with your class.’ So I did, and I maintained a - matter of fact I graduated tied tenth in my class with another gal. And so I did get my high school diploma, only having three years of high school. Interviewer: “And you had to do it after the time in service?” After I’d gotten back from the service, yeah. Interviewer: “Was there anybody else in your situation, were there some returning veterans?” Yes, there were four other servicemen that started school with me, but they all dropped out. I’m the only one that completed - so as far as I know, I’m the only veteran that completed high school in Wayland. (10:07) Interviewer: “Okay, at least in that fashion. Now, was there a reason why you wanted the diploma and not just the GED, did it make any difference?” Yes, I felt that later in life that it would be more important to have a sheepskin, as they called it back then. Interviewer: “Okay. So let’s back up a ways: 1945, you’re 17 years old, you say ‘okay I’m just gonna go in the service and do it.’ So you talk your mother into signing the papers to let you go in a year early, and so when did you enlist?” July - I think it was July 12th when I enlisted, I’m not exactly sure I think it was July 12th that I actually was inducted into the service. Interviewer: “Okay, and when you were enlisting were you able to choose which branch of service to go into?” They said we could, but when we got in line and the guy says ‘you’re going to the Navy, you’re going to the Marines, you’re going to the Army’ and they got to me and they said ‘what branch do you want to be in?’ and I said the Marines, and luckily he did put me in the Marines, but you didn’t really have a choice. But he did put me in the Marines. Interviewer: “Well the Marines had taken a lot of losses in the Pacific, and they needed bodies for what was to come.” Yep, that’s exactly what I was. �Interviewer: “So they were happy to take you for that, okay. And so, after you sign up, then what happens?” Well, we stayed in the hotel there in Detroit that night, then we got on a train - I always called it a coop train, and from there we went right on down to Parris Island. I don’t really remember much about the trip, I don’t remember staying overnight anywhere, to me it was an all-day allnight two-days and two-night trip down to Parris Island. Interviewer: “And were you just in regular coaches where you’re sitting on seats?” No, we weren’t just in regular coaches yet. Interviewer: “No sleeper cars, or?” No sleeper cars or anything, we - you slept wherever you could sleep, and I don’t remember now what time of the day or night we got there, I remember unloading and I remember they told us to unload, stand in line, and we had a drill sergeant came out and started talking to us. Here again there’s maybe something I shouldn’t say, but we all stood up - I went in with a fellow by the name of Bob Dove from Ludington, which I had known before I was in the service, and he and I - he was a little guy, not very big. This big, Polish guy - great big guy - walked up and down and all the sudden he called us every name that he could think of, and get us in line, and he walked [up to] Bob Dove, he hit Bob Dove in the stomach and curled him over. I thought ‘oh my gosh, this is not for me.’ But anyway… Interviewer: “Now, was that where you got off the train or was that when you got to Parris Island?” That was at Parris Island, we got off the train. Well, we got off the train [and] I think we were bussed in. Interviewer: “You’d have to take the bus there, -” You gotta take the bus to Parris Island, when we got off the bus at Parris Island where we took our boot. Interviewer: “Yeah, so that ‘welcome to the Marine Corps’ was pretty much the same still in the Vietnam era, where you’d come out and get abused by the drill sergeant, that was the first exposure to life in the Marines.” Then the second exposure was [when] we got to our barracks, and they had a big 2x4 nailed to a post in there, he ripped that 2x4 off and it had a big nail in the end of it, and he walked up and down the barracks and told us who we were and what we were there to do. One of the first things that I remember him saying is ‘whatever you do, you do on the double. I don’t wanna see �anybody walk, when I tell you something you run. You do it on the double, everything is on the double.’ And he would, I don’t know how much detail you want me to go into on this, but they would go into town on the weekend and they would come back pretty well… uh, lubricated. Interviewer: “Right.” And it could be 2:00 in the morning, or anytime they decided to come in, and they would tell us to fall out. Sometimes it was locker boxes, … drawers. So we had to pick up our locker box at the end of our bunk, take it outside, hold it, stand at attention until he decided to let us go back in. Another thing they would do when they [came] back on the weekend [was that] they would have the bucket brigade. We always had a bucket to wash our clothes and stuff in, and we would take the bucket out, stand at attention, put it over our head and holler ‘Attention!’ until he decided that he had enough, and then we’d go back in again. Just all - all discipline. (15:22) Interviewer: “Did you have the impression that all the different groups who were training were getting the same treatment?” Yes, yeah. Everybody got the same… abuse. Interviewer: “Alright. At the time, did you understand why they were doing these things?” No, not - not really, not really. But by time I was finished with boot camp and then back out after the war was over, then I realized what they were doing. Interviewer: “Alright, now what actual training did you get, in terms of military training while you were at Parris Island?” Well, mostly marching with the pack on our back, it was mostly physical training for us. We didn’t get an awful lot, we got some bayonet training and we got some climbing-the-fences and crawling on our bellies through the swamp, and wading in the swamp up to our armpits. Things like that, but it was mostly physical training. Now we were supposed to have six weeks of basic training, we only got four weeks because of the rush – they wanted the invasion of Japan to start, and so we only had four weeks of training. So we didn’t, we didn’t really have much more than just rugged physical training. Interviewer: “Alright. And at that point, while you were still at Parris Island, were they telling you anything about what was going to happen to you – did you know you were heading for the invasion of Japan?” No, we didn’t know anything until the day before we were to board a ship. They told us that we were shipping out on a certain date - I don’t remember what exact date that was now. But they �told us we were going to be shipping out, and that we would have a general meeting [the next day,] so then they [told us to] pack our bags, told us what to have in our duffel bag, and that we’d be shipping out the next day. And they had a big room they put us in, and they had all the papers if we wanted to change our beneficiary for life insurance - at that time each of us had a $10,000 life insurance policy and I had my mother as the beneficiary. If anybody wanted to change it – cause they came out and told us that there’d be a lot of us that wouldn’t come back – so if you wanted to change something, [that] was the time to do it. So then the next morning we went back to our barracks, next morning while we got all of our equipment on, went out to the … field to get ready to board the bus to take us to the ship, and they said that our orders had been delayed. They didn’t tell us… that they were just delayed. So we had no idea, we were sequestered so we didn’t have any idea what was going on, so then I think it was three days later they dropped the second bomb. And then they told us that there was something called an atomic bomb, and it was dropped twice on Japan and that Japan had surrendered and that the war was over with and we didn’t have to go anywhere. So I was really happy about that. Cause you know, you stop and think, you know - am I gonna be a hero, or am I gonna be a coward? You really don’t know until you get into it. You do what everybody else [does,] you’re assigned a job and you do the job. You don’t think about anything else. Interviewer: “Okay. Now during those few days, where you were just there waiting and you didn’t know what was going to happen, what was the mood or the attitude of the guys you were with?” You know, I don’t really remember. I – I don’t remember much of anything, we were wondering, you know, ‘what’s going on, what happened?’ but I don’t remember the mood of the group of people that I was with at all, just kinda seems like a blank to me right now. Interviewer: “So you were all focused on what might happen to you and you weren’t really talking to each other or doing other stuff.” Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “Did they keep you busy during those days?” Can’t re- I, I don’t think so – March! Oh yeah, we went out on the … field and marched. We kept our, we kept our discipline up. Interviewer: “So now you’ve, you’ve had your four weeks of training, you’re supposed to ship out, you don’t ship out, what do they do with you next? You’ve signed up for the Marine Corps, so now what happens?” Yeah, well – they shipped me into, they shipped me to Camp Lejeune. So I went into Camp Lejeune - and I was a projectionist, when I was back in Wayland, there was a theater in Wayland and of course I had to work because my dad had passed away, and I got a job in the theater as an usher, cause I was tall and I could look – look older than what I really was. So the �guy there was named, Neiman Frank was his name. And so he gave me a job - I had to go to the school and get a permit again because I was too young to work, and so then I did pretty good as an usher so he trained me to run the projection machines upstairs in the projection booth. So when I went in the service I had that [experience] as a projectionist so I was put in the special services. And I – they assigned me to bringing in the … shows I guess is what you might call them, but there was… oh, Louis Armstrong and so I met quite a few celebrities on that, it was my job to bring them in, show them where their quarters were, show them where the stage was, and what facilities that we had for them to put their performance on. So that lasted for a little while, and then we had to requalify for the rifle range. So I requalified and I shot expert. And very, very difficult circumstances. We uh, we were there for I think a week shooting. And I didn’t know it at the time, but there was a team being organized to shoot a national competition for the Marine Corps and they were looking for people that could shoot accurately, and I happened to shoot expert – I shot at a thousand yards, hit the bullseye. And so I was assigned to the, to represent the Marines – on the team of the Eastern division of the Marine Corps, and they shipped to me to Quantico, Virginia – Washington D.C., and people from – really good shooters, from all over the United States are all in the service to shoot in this national competition. (22:35) Interviewer: “Now, when you were a kid did you hunt or shoot at all or was this all new to you?” No, no, I hunted. Yeah I was familiar with a shotgun, and rifles and things. Interviewer: “Yeah, a shotgun might not help you.” Just .22s, yeah – well yes, [shotguns do help you learn how to] carry a weapon, and how to position it, and what you should do with it. So [shotguns do] teach you, even though it was no good in the service. Interviewer: “Yeah, well it wasn’t a long range weapon though, I mean in the sense of a rifle – you’re not going to hit something at a thousand yards with a shotgun.” Yeah, no. So we shot with an M1, Browning. [the M1 was called the Garand—the Browning Automatic Rifle was a different weapon] Interviewer: “Okay. And then did you find that you were about as good as the other guys on your team?” Yes. Yeah, mhm, I was surprised. We also had to shoot with a .45. So we had the M1 and the .45. Now, it’s a funny thing cause I don’t remember where we ended up – where my team ended up in the competition, I don’t know whether we were first, second, third, or last, I don’t remember. �Interviewer: “And was the competition held at Quantico or was it-“ Yeah, mhm, Quantico. Every morning we would get up and we’d go shoot, by nine o’clock we had to be on the range ready to, ready for the competition. We’d fire until noon, and then we were turned loose. We could do whatever we wanted to, we had free range of Washington, we could leave the base, we didn’t have to have passes or anything, we could just do whatever we, whatever we wanted to do. Interviewer: “Okay. So did you go into Washington then?” Oh yes. Yes, I spent a lot of time – I had a friend that was – my schoolteacher, her sister lived in Washington, and I stayed at her apartment on the weekends. And she had a pass to the, all the streetcars, cause she worked there for the government. So she would give me her pass and I could go anywhere I wanted to, didn’t cost me any money. Interviewer: “Okay, and were they giving servicemen free admission to various places?” No, no I don’t remember that – most everything was free back then anyway, there wasn’t any charge for anything. But I visited everything that was of any interest in Washington. Interviewer: “About how long did you spend at Quantico?” Probably a couple of weeks, maybe three weeks. Then I went back to Camp Lejeune, and there was a lot of people – Marines or servicemen coming back, and they put me in charge of a barracks – a two story barracks. And all these guys were coming back from overseas, and they had been fighting over there … they had a point system then, and I think that – I think if you had around forty – I don’t remember now exactly – but forty-some points or something, you got released and didn’t come back first, and then they went on down the line [numerically.] And here I am, a seventeen year-old kid, they put me in charge of a barracks – these Marines that have been overseas crawling in the mud and fighting, killing people – and I’m supposed to maintain the barracks, have these guys come out, fall out in the morning, have roll call, and then tell them to police the grounds and to polish the brass and to clean the heads – the head was the toilet. And I thought, ‘this isn’t going to work.’ The first time I tried to get to somebody to do something, they told me where to go. So I decided that, well, it’s gotta be done, so I did it. I picked up all the cigarette butts, I let the guys do whatever they wanted to do, they could… I was not in charge of them at all. So I picked up the cigarette butts, I polished the brass, and I cleaned the heads. These guys had no business picking up cigarette butts. I realized that, I knew that – instinctively, I said ‘this was not going to work.’ So I was there for a little while, and then they put me on guard duty on a little island just off the coast of North Carolina. I was there for a little while and I got an ingrown toenail, so I couldn’t walk the guard duty. So I went to the hospital and I had pretty good duty in the hospital, I kept – I played that for as much as I could for a while. Finally they released me, and then I got discharged right after that. �Interviewer: “Okay. Let’s back up to the early part where you were a projectionist – did you actually work as a projectionist in Camp Lejeune?” Yes. Interviewer: “And were you just, were you showing like Hollywood movies, or training films?” No no, Hollywood movies. These were for guys that were coming back from overseas and they were stationed at that time, they called it Tent Camp. There was five of us, or four of us, that they assigned to this one theater. We showed one movie a night, so we only – every fourth night, I had something to do. We didn’t do anything at all during the days, except play pinochle all day. Interviewer: “Alright, now you mentioned Tent Camp – were you actually staying in tents at that point, rather than barracks?” No, I was staying right at the theater. They had rooms at the theater, they had a big office and a lounge right there in the theater. So all I did was show a movie once every four days. (28:26) Interviewer: “Alright. Now do you remember any other famous people who went through with the USO? You mentioned Louis Armstrong, who else came through?” Well, Harry James came through and then there was… it wasn’t Lana Turner but there was another gal that came in there – that was the only three that I remember that had any real fame. Interviewer: “Okay. Now while you were at Camp Lejeune, did you get to go off the base at all?” No, I don’t remember going off base much at Camp Lejeune. I did go into Raleigh, North Carolina a couple of times – we could get weekend passes if we wanted ‘em. Interviewer: “Cause, I mean, you were in the South, and the South was still segregated at that point – inside the camp, I mean aside from [a] visitor like Louis Armstrong, everybody there probably was white. But did you notice that –“ No we had, we had colored people in my unit. Interviewer: “Okay.” Oh yeah. No, we had, in boot camp – I had, there was two people of color. �Interviewer: “Were they black?” Yeah. No no, they were African Americans. Interviewer: “Okay. Cause that’s the kind of thing that isn’t really expected, because black Marines would normally train on their own at Montford Point, rather than Parris Island with the rest of you guys. And your unit at Camp Lejeune, there were black Marines there too? Or just when you were training?” I don’t remember – no there was… cause I, the fellow that I was in boot camp with was also at Camp Lejeune at the same time that I was. Cause I talked with him several times after that. So we were integrated, I didn’t even realize that we were [supposed to still be segregated] at that time. Interviewer: “Cause you weren’t officially integrated at that point, but it was happening – and I’ve actually heard that from a few other people in other service branches, that there was a little more of that kind of thing going on than you might expect.” Mhm. Interviewer: “Alright – now, thinking over the time that you spent in the Marines, are there other memories that stand out for you?” When I was on guard duty one day, there was a colored snake – it had rings – red, and white and black, rings around it. It was about [two feet] long, and so I killed it. And there was a black guy that was a … of the guardsmen there that took care of the boilers and the furnace and stuff, so I took it in and I put it on my billy stick and I took it in and showed it to them, and it was a poisonous, very poisonous snake. I don’t know – they called it a milk snake, or a – Interviewer: “It could be… it was a coral snake maybe?” A coral snake or something, and he just about had a fit. And then one other time, while I was on guard duty there, I got awful sleepy and I thought, ‘well I’m just gonna lay down for a minute, I can’t walk anymore’ and of course I had a sore foot at that time, and so I laid down and I thought, ‘well I’ll get up in a few minutes.’ I fell asleep. Luckily the guy that was to relieve me, the sergeant did not come with him – he came by himself. And I wasn’t at the post where I was supposed to be so he came into the barracks, woke me up, and then took over. But if the sergeant had [come] I’d probably still be in jail. (32:12) Interviewer: “Alright, once you were out of the basic training and you were at Camp Lejeune, how did sergeants treat people?” �Fine. Yeah, entirely different. Interviewer: “And… but you wound up then essentially going out early, you were supposed to be in, do you think, for two full years or at least eighteen months or something?” Mhm. Yeah. Interviewer: “So you got out there early, alright. So once they decide that they’re done with you, what did you do after you’re discharged? Did you go back home, or-“ Oh yeah. I came back home and then I went to high school, and then I went back to the theater and worked in the theater. And I did odd jobs around, I worked for different carpenters and built houses and things like that as a laborer, but that wasn’t something that I really – and I did work at General Motors for a little while, and then I decided that probably working at General Motors wasn’t something I liked because I stood at a machine, I put a part – I put two parts together, I put it at a spot welder, and spot welded it, threw it over my shoulder, that’s all I did all day long. And that, I guess my personality was not that type so I decided that I better, I better go to school. So I quit General Motors and then I went to Parsons Business College in Kalamazoo – they had a private business school there, and I took up accounting – business administration and accounting. And I, I did that after [General Motors.] Interviewer: “Okay so, then that was kind of your career from there?” No, I came back – I didn’t really like accounting very much, and a friend of mine was a painter in Wayland – he did painting and decorating. And I worked with him for a while, and he decided that he was gonna leave town, he didn’t want to stay in Wayland anymore, he was going someplace else, so I took over all of his equipment and I did painting and decorating in Wayland. I took a job, there was an outfit called Kessler’s Undies and Woolies that had come into town, there was a … works in Grand Rapids and they made lollipop pants for women, cotton pants – they owned a factory there in Wayland. And the Kessler company came out of Chicago, and he bought the lollipop pant factory, moved his operation into Wayland. They manufactured baby clothes and sleepwear and underwear for infants. And I contracted a job for them painting their office, and I saw the salesman come in and I heard what they were talking about and everything and I thought, ‘well you know I might like to try that’ and I liked that better than painting, cause painting was difficult. Sanding and scrubbing those walls and stuff, I didn’t like that. So I asked Mr. Kessler if I could have a job as a salesman, he said he wanted to know if I had any experience, and I said ‘no, I don’t have any experience.’ Well he says, “I can’t hire you unless you have experience,’ so I thought ‘well, alright, how am I gonna get experience?’ So I got a job with Fuller Brush Company. Interviewer: “Oh, okay.” �And I don’t know how I even contacted them and got a hold of them, but I did and I worked for them for a year, and I was very successful then, I did pretty good at it. Interviewer: “Now a lot of people today won’t even know what Fuller Brush Company was or how they operated, I mean I’m old enough to remember them – so what did they do?” Oh really? Well Fuller Brush Company had a catalog, and they sold all – very similar to Amway, in many ways, today – and they had salesmen that would go out and knock on doors. At that time you could knock on doors and people were home! And you could talk to them and they had always – we had what they called a vegetable brush that we gave to the housewife, or whoever answered the door. And then we gave them a catalog and told them who we were, and to pick out something and then we would take an order. And then we would fill the order, bring the merchandise back the next week when we came, when we came through. So I worked for them for about a year, and so then I went back to Mr. Kessler and I said ‘well, I have sales experience now, I worked for Fuller Brush, and I’m one of their top people in our area,’ I said ‘will you now consider hiring me?’ Well, you know he says ‘we do need somebody in Michigan right now, our salesman there is leaving,’ and he said ‘you can go out with my son tomorrow if you want to, can you go tomorrow?’ I said, ‘yeah, I’m ready to go,’ so I went out with his son, they had a sample case of goods and we went out and we sold about eight or ten hundred dollars’ worth of stuff, and so the next day he says, ‘well, you want to go out with my son again today?’ And I said no, I said ‘I’ll try it on my own.’ So I had a little plan figured out that I was gonna do, and so I took the sample case out and I went to a couple of small stores and told them that I was new with the business, I didn’t really know whether the products was any good or not, but would they take a look at it and see if there was a product there that they could use? And they let me open up the case and I sold them goods, I got back with fifteen hundred dollars’ worth of goods. The next day [Mr. Kessler] says we’ll hire you. I ended up being there, either their number one or number two salesman – I was with them for ten years. (38:03) Interviewer: “Alright, so you’ve done all sorts of stuff in your lifetime, alright. … primarily about your military career, let’s go and circle back a little bit now. Think about the time that you spent in the Marine Corps, what did you take out of that or how did that affect you?” I think probably discipline. Knowing what you want to do and how you want to do it, and to plan – things don’t just happen, you have to kind of plan as to what you’re going to do and what’s expected of you. Probably decency is a thing that stood out more than anything else – be fair and normally people will treat you fair if you’re fair. But I think discipline, is probably the biggest thing. Your weapon was, that was a rifle. And it was called a rifle. And they said, ‘do not call it a gun or you’re in trouble.’ So I don’t know any… one of our discipline… our marching… something came up that, I said, ‘my gun,’ something or other. And the drill sergeant picked up on that immediately - I slept with nine rifles that night. So that was my, that was my reward for calling my rifle my gun. Yeah, when they first got in, the… mess hall, I would, I think it was �[during] the evening meal, I was still hungry – cause I was a pretty good eater. And so I went in and had my meal and I went in for seconds, and the sergeant that was in charge of the mess hall said ‘are you a chow hound?’ I said ‘yes sir!’ He said, ‘well get up on the table and bark.’ So’s about three hundred people in the mess hall at the time, so I get up on the table and I barked. I never went back for seconds again. Interviewer: “Alright, now I guess – that led me to think a little bit, so in boot camp when people messed up, did you normally get disciplined like that, just doing something-“ K.P. Kitchen police. Yeah kitchen duty, they called it K.P. at the time. And sometimes even if you didn’t mess up you got K.P.’d, because they needed somebody and they made it kind of around so that everybody got K.P. And I did get K.P. for a week – no, not a week – three days, I think. And I was what they called a bread and butter guy, and all I had to do was make sure there was bread and butter on the table. So that was pretty good duty. Interviewer: “Okay. But they didn’t – so they weren’t beating people up, or doing any really abusive stuff at that point?” No, no. Interviewer: “Periods where you get stories like that, sometimes coming out of Marine training-“ The only, the only physical thing was hitting Bob Dove in his stomach. And Bob Dove just passed away here a few months ago. Interviewer: “Alright.” (41:25) [END] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LowD2355V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Low, David Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04 Title A name given to the resource Low, David (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource David Low was born in Hebron, Illinois, on October 29th, 1927, and his family moved to Muskegon, Michigan before settling in Wayland, Michigan as he started high school. When Low was 14, he helped make powdered eggs for the military at a local factory, where he worked alongside German prisoners of war. Near the end of his sophomore year of high school, Low decided that because he was going to be drafted, it made more sense to join the Marines outright. Low arrived at Parris Island for boot camp shortly after enlisting and received four weeks of training in boot camp instead of the typical six weeks because of pressure surrounding the invasion of Japan. Fortunately for Low and his fellow soldiers, the atomic bomb strikes led to Japan’s surrender just before they were to depart. Following this confusion and sudden change of plans, Low was sent to Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville, North Carolina. Here he worked as a projectionist due to his past work experience. Low was able to meet celebrities like Louis Armstrong due to his work helping the USO entertain servicemembers and enjoyed the time he spent living in the theater. Afterwards Low was required to requalify at the rifle range, and shot at an expert level, gaining him a position on a Marine team that was sent to shoot at a national competition. This led him to Quantico, Virginia, where he was able to live near Washington D.C. and enjoy the local sights and events. Low was eventually able to return home to Wayland, MI, where he resumed school and work, he was able to find a position at General Motors and worked there for a while, but grew tired of the repetitive work and desired something more enjoyable. To solve this problem, Low attended Parsons Business College in Kalamazoo, MI, studying business administration and accounting in order to further his career. Though he did not enjoy accounting work as much as he hoped, Low was able to find work in sales after finishing school and enjoyed it significantly more, working for Kessler’s Undies and Woolies for ten years. Reflecting on his time in the service, Low feels that he gained a greater sense of discipline due to his experience. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/57bc71e8bebd89e5f1c77da0bfff842d.mp4 dafea19dc014e081e9547c2b8776d3ea https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f82eee0c4919b91804cbc394a34e8e3.pdf 68222c5695aadd2f0820e6140f419046 PDF Text Text Leet, James Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee’s Name: James Leet Length of Interview: (53:24) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with James Leet of Grand Haven, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Jim start us off with some background and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Manistee, 1930. Interviewer: “Did you grow up there or move around?” (00:22) Pardon me? Interviewer: “Did you grow up in Manistee or did you move around?” Yes, I grew up in Manistee and– Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living when you were a kid?” My– I could guess. My mother was widowed– Or divorced and we lived with my grandmother and her father and graduated from Manistee high in 1947 and– Interviewer: “Now before we move forward what was life like during World War II in Manistee, I mean in what ways were you kind of aware of its effect?” �Leet, James Not really, not really I was a sophomore in high school then. Interviewer: “Was there rationing in place and that kind of thing?” Oh yes, but I– With the parents that were there they took care of all that stuff and yes but from my point of view it was not critical. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so then when did you graduate– You graduated from high school then you said ‘47?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you got out of high school?” I started working for my step-dad doing carpenter work, everything from putting roofing and finish carpenting. (2:10) The winter, the first winter, was kind of slow working with just the two of us, sometimes three, but we survived and worked crazy through the summer and I started to wake up a little bit and I said “I just don’t want to go through another wait and see in the winter again.” So I decided to join the service, I went down to the Navy and there was a three month waiting list. I said “Well.” Air Force wanted two months and I said “I can’t wait that long.” She says “Go upstairs.” So I go upstairs and the Army’s there, I said “I wanna join.” They said “Raise your right hand.” Three days later I was gone. Interviewer: “Alright, where did they send you for basic training?” Fort Knox. Interviewer: “Okay and what was– What did Fort Knox look like to you or what kind of facilities were you in?” �Leet, James Well it looked great, the bills– The barracks were fairly new, probably built back in World War II and everything looked great. Interviewer: “Okay, now how did they treat you when you got there?” Probably a little strictly, the first night there in those barracks, lights off 9:00, 9:15 somebody ran the full length of the second floor which is just above the heating ventilator, very soundy and ten minutes later we were all bundled up and they had– One was Agony Hill and the other one was similar. That’s the only time I really got disciplined but the whole barracks was and it settled in, you know they didn’t try it again. Interviewer: “Okay, so you said Agony Hill?” Yep. Interviewer: “Is that something they made you run up and down?” (5:08) Yeah it was just normal hills at night if it got ahead of you. Interviewer: “So they actually took you out of the barracks at night and made you run?” Oh yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then what else– What did they actually teach you in basic?” Well just– It’s basic needs, how to shoot rifle, dismantle and– I didn’t– We only had eight weeks of basic, went down from the 13 and of course war was over so it wasn’t necessary to dismantle the rifle. Interviewer: “And they would teach you to follow orders right?” �Leet, James Oh yes, very much so. Interviewer: “Okay, was it easy for you to adjust to that?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, were there some other guys who were having more trouble than you were?” The only one I know of was a fella dealing with the Red Cross, his mother or father supposedly was dying and he couldn’t get the dominoes connected and he went AWOL, of course we didn’t see him again. Interviewer: “Okay, alright but basically otherwise everybody was getting through that fairly well?” (7:00) Oh we had one fellow, a farm boy– I’m assuming very much, he could not keep step with everybody or anybody else you saw just one head bobble but he took longer strides, he took a three foot stride. Interviewer: “Now you’re there and this is 1948 now, officially the military was becoming integrated. Were there any black recruits in your training unit?” Yeah– No, not that I– No, I don’t think there were but when I moved to Okinawa base then we got a few. Well it’s only one that I really remember, real nice guy and we had probably a– Maybe a platoon– No, no, not a platoon but a squad at least, of Filipinos who survived the war. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so to kind of go back– So Fort Knox was basically kind of standard marching, drilling, shooting for eight weeks, and then what did they do with you after that? Did you go was– Was that–” �Leet, James They didn’t ask me until I got out of the trade that they said “You want to do ship fitting or carpentry?” But that was after I was designated as ship’s fitter and that’s just ship carpentry, I know something about it. Interviewer: “Now did you get training– Let’s see was Fort Eustis, Virginia your next stop then?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and there you are training to be a shipfitter?” To start with, yes. Ship’s carpentry was we learned to plug holes and [unintelligible] Interviewer: “Alright, now was this just a training assignment there?” (9:25) Yes. Interviewer: “Okay and how long did that last?” I think it’s supposed to be four weeks altogether. Interviewer: “Okay, so not very long.” No, no they could’ve called it the first week and still had five days left, for me some of the guys never did get to be able to do it. Interviewer: “Okay, well when they were training I mean would you actually work on the holes of PT boats?” No, just a piece of plywood. �Leet, James Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re just patching holes in plywood?” Mhmm. Interviewer: “What do you patch a hole with?” Plywood. Interviewer: “Okay, and then how do you seal it?” Well they show you what it looks like, then all you have to do is make one similar. If there’s a hole here, you make a hole bigger and if you’re on the outside figuratively speaking, you chamfer all the way around so it’s bigger on the outside than the inside and then you do one or the other first then– Either the hole in the boat or the plug. (11:00) Plug would be just the opposite you’d fit it in best you could and there'd be another larger plate and fasten that on the inside. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now while you were there did you get to go off the base at all or look around anywhere?” Not really, the option was there but I didn’t take it, I was going there and working. Interviewer: “But I guess going as far as say Washington or Richmond or something like that was not really an option?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so now you’ve had your training exercise there, where do they send you now for regular duty?” �Leet, James Oakland Army Base, California. Interviewer: “Okay and how do they get you to Oakland?” Train. Interviewer: “Okay and how long did that take?” Who remembers? Interviewer: “Well do you remember if you had to just sit around a lot and stop and wait for trains to go by or you got to roll pretty much straight through?” Well if you’re on the train half the time it was at night, didn’t pay any attention. Interviewer: “Okay I guess in the World War II era there was often a problem because there were so many trains going back and forth and troop trains sometimes went off to the side. This is peacetime and maybe they’re integrating you better into the regular schedule and it’s like being on a passenger train.” (12:30) No, [unintelligible, but seeming to suggest that the train went straight through]. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and now once you got to Oakland what did you wind up doing?” First chore was in the firehouse receiving stuff that’s virtually useless but stuff that returned from overseas, old beams or whatever. If I may go back to Fort Eustis, the first or second night I was there, we urged at night, we had a little fire. The warehouses were mixed with water and they’re a quarter of a mile long and one end was OOX supplies which was– Which burned and– But it didn’t really affect us except there was– Yes it did, we had fire duty for quite a length of time, till we shipped out but there was not much of a need for purchasing cigarettes, they survived but yep �Leet, James they got back to the warehouse stuff and they think we’re idiots but that was the intent of the powers that be and decided that we’re gonna patrol the California coast with PT boats. That’s why we were there, that didn’t materialize so I spent more time in warehouses again until I heard that they were in need of mail clerk and I held that. Well I went home for detail– Got to street– I don’t know. Interviewer: “Well you were I guess– So you were at your mail clerk there, Oakland Army Base and initially that's still peacetime. Did you get a chance to kind of go into town in Oakland or over to San Francisco?” We went to ‘Frisco once with a buddy, brought his car back there was three of us we jumped in there and crossed the bridge and first turn off the main road he turned right, one way, the wrong way so he turned left on the road is what he did, two more turns and we turned around like that but– Let’s see, yeah I stayed there and it’s the only time I spent time– Catholic organization that girls come over for dancing and it went– Not serious but the next evening I came home on furlough and it was a good break I guess, I never went back. (17:27) I was home and all my friends were either in college or working, it got kind of boring so my grandmother mentioned something about a roof, I said “Yeah, hey that sounds great!” So she ordered the roofing and I started on it, it’s an old four gable house that’s got a big valley like probably near the size of this table, of course you know battered, and heard a voice from down below. Fellow with a bicycle, and he said “Hey, are you Jim Leet?” I said “Yes.” “Telegram.” and that was the telegram that they gave me four days to get to Fort Eustis and my report was a telegram in so then it goes and they didn’t know what to do with me, they found something to do with me though. Interviewer: “Now to back up when was this? Was this now summer of 1950, of July or so?” No, ‘51. Interviewer: “ ‘51 okay, alright I guess– You have an itinerary or some notes written down in places in the documents you had and it looked like 1950 was when that started and when �Leet, James you got that message to go to Fort Eustis because the Korean war starts in June of 1950. Okay, do you remember hearing about that at the time?” Yes, yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and did it occur to you that you might get involved in that?” Not really actually I was still on furlough then. Interviewer: “So Uncle Sam found you.” Yeah, they found me. Interviewer: “Alright, so now– Okay you’ve been called to Fort Eustis, so what did they do with you after you got there?” (19:55) Not enough, not much except shuffle me around, they gave me a full duffle bag and I think it was probably the next day that it happened, at night actually. The supposedly organize groups and I was in one unit long enough to set my bag down and pick it up again and you had no idea where were and finally things settled down and higher up say “Go be here.” Or whatever. Oh well, they had to follow somebody, went down to the train station “What about the trucks?” Then take the trucks over to Fort Lee and trained from there, northern route I’d already been on the southern route. Interviewer: “So this is across the country?” Right, to Seattle and I don’t remember going on land freely and like I said I really think that people just went on the way. Interviewer: “Were you in a unit now, had they formed–” �Leet, James Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, so what unit were you in?” 714th, TROB, this says 12th. Interviewer: “That’s a 712, but that one’s wrong?” Not entirely. Interviewer: “Okay, alright but basically it’s a railroad transportation battalion now that you’ve been assigned to and where are they sending you to?” Well I think we probably didn’t know wherever we were going but we left, our first day out was a little rough but we landed in Japan, although don’t think– We may have stopped in Hawaii but not to stay, we didn’t get off the ship. (22:55) Went from there we went into Japan and nobody got off the ship there but we left a few, maybe a platoon I don’t know whatever, there and picked up some more troops and then we went to Pusan. Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you get to Pusan?” The next day. Interviewer: “Okay but I mean in terms of calendar do you know when you actually landed– I think you’ve got that in your notes.” It was– Interviewer: “Beginning of August now of ‘50?” Yes. �Leet, James Interviewer: “Okay, alright so at that point– And then did you know anything about the situation in Korea when you got there?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you get there and you get off the boat now what happens to you?” Well this is probably near the end of June we were already in the outfit we were in and we got off the boat and vehicles traffic to Pusan Hotel, Pusan Broadway Hotel and that’s where we stayed just for a while and first information was– At that point it was just a few of us and this was during the Pusan Perimeter and on the boat, we woke up, got up, and thick fog you couldn’t see from one end of the ship to the other but it gradually came up and there’s another ship, and another one. (25:10) During the course of an hour or two there were hundreds of them out there, I found out later some were full and some were empty, whether they were going to disband or surge. Interviewer: “Okay, so they could potentially be there to evacuate people and that’s what all the extra ships were for.” I think that was determined maybe the same day or the next day because from there then we met– the Korean railroad people and out of all the names, Colonel Lee, but the room was like this, it’s an imaginary line down the middle this is their operations and this is yours. Which was fine, that worked out real good and we had to keep– Well it appeared they struggled on what to do and was to keep myself and somebody else at one station over here and they had the same set up and what we did the trains originated in the yards at that point– Actually the ending, and we would get the information, a train number and when it would leave and somehow we had to know where it was headed. There’s a double track up through all the way to Seoul, a single track on the east coast, went to Yeongdong or someplace and I still haven’t figured out how they operated that train, train’s going across– �Leet, James Interviewer: “Sightings.” So we just– And then we monitored them going up the next station up was monitored and they were just about five miles apart and there was only probably four or five stations active at that time and they would say “Trade number–” Such and such by at 02:35 or arrived and then you had the departure and you kept track of them cause they had a nature– The Koreans had a nature of slowing down and passing off the coal and things. Interviewer: “So you would keep track of how long it took them to get from one place to the next and you could figure out how fast they were going?” Right, at which you’d get on the grid, say “Hey!” Interviewer: “Alright, now how did you communicate with each other if you’re on the rail line someplace, were you using radio or telephone or wireless?” (29:08) Well it was a little radio system which they could insulate the copper wire in that– I remember, up until now I remembered the sergeant's name that used to come in and shake with us, run a cable. Interviewer: “Okay so if you tried to run telephone cable or something like that people would steal it?” Yeah, they’d probably sell it back to us. Interviewer: “Alright, now what– So were you based– So you were not yourself then based in Pusan, you would be out someplace else along the railroad or would you normally be in Busan?” �Leet, James Main station I never left, when I got as far as Taegu I moved up there and then went over to Andong on the east side and back up to Daejeon but first winter I was in– I think I was in Daejeon– Or pardon me seems I was in Andong but I didn’t sleep for two weeks, so went to a Swedish hospital and they put me by a pot stove and I don’t remember anything until I woke up around suppertime. I got there in the morning, late morning, and hungry but I was too late didn’t have those little snack machines or anything but I survived but they tried– They said they did everything but bounce me on the floor, did everything they could to wake me up. I must’ve spent, oh at least four or five days there and then they let me go. Interviewer: “Okay, so do you know why you hadn’t been sleeping?” I found out later I think, we moved into a woman’s school and they had dollar rooms and nice closets, not the deep but just a cot fit in there real nice but there was always a little draft coming down plus all of the mice and rats but– Because I slept before we got there and I think that’s what it was. I emptied my duffle bag, spray all the whatever out and then put the sleeping bag down and then the overcoat and stuff, the heavy stuff on the top, couldn’t sleep. (32:53) Then I have nerve enough to get dressed and go sit by the stove just to go to sleep, well I still run into that. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you got back from the Swedish hospital did you change how you slept or did you do things differently or could you sleep now?” We moved, if nothing else I’ll go out into the main room there. Interviewer: “So what did you do when you’re in Korea, what were you doing day by day? I mean was it just going on duty and checking trains, I mean what was a typical day like?” I was 12 on 12 off except every other weekend or on Sunday it was 16-8 and 8. I don’t know, never did much but walked on Pusan. No, I don’t remember even playing card, must’ve been reading. �Leet, James Interviewer: “Okay, now what impression did you have of the Koreans themselves?” Well first of all thrifty, got a new cigarette lighter, one simple, put it right there, when it’s light enough to see “Where’d it go?” Every time they’d walk right in, you wouldn’t hear them but some of them you’d get to know. Interviewer: “Well did you work with any of them or did you have them working on bases where you went?” The communication was not there and I don’t really remember associating with them except once when they cut our lines, I got on the phone I said “Mouse on our tail, mouse on G.I” That’s as far as you had to go and I talked to one of our guys he said “Okay.” “Thank you.” There was nothing frictional between– You know just that I know of in– Not necessarily units we had at each town– Not– At the designated towns they had major stations at maybe 30-35 miles apart but there’s other little stations between and in the beginning the front line moved just a little bit and encompass another little town, a place where there might be a sighting and then we’d operate that way. (37:00) Interviewer: “Now in the time you’re there when you land in the middle of 1950 and the Americans and South Koreans have been pushed back to the area around Pusan and that perimeter and then in September they start pushing back out and going north and MacArthur lands at Incheon–” Before that. Interviewer: “Well it was kind of attacking that most of the real larger scale movement starts about the same time as the Incheon landing at least in terms of– But basically regardless after you got there they could keep pushing forward and so you were adding stations. Okay, now eventually though the American forward forces get well up into North Korea and then they get chased back out again and the Chinese and North Koreans start �Leet, James coming back into South Korea. Did that ever affect your operations or were you always far enough in the rear that you didn’t notice?” Well I was in 714th and we controlled the tracks up to Daejeon which is still quite a ways from Seoul and 712 took over up there. We did run a– We ran the– We kept up to the front until they moved into another territory but– What was your question? Interviewer: “Well I was just asking if you were– Your operations were affected by the communist counter attacks.” No. Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t have to suddenly move south or anything like that?” Well we were aware of it but because of the evacuation running on the trains. Interviewer: “Okay, how much contact or communication did you have with people back home?” (39:03) Very little, very little. Interviewer: “I mean would it just be letters?” Just with my mother and that was occasional. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and did the military provide anything to entertain you with, I mean were there movie theaters on bases that you could go to or were you just in these small groups?” �Leet, James No, we didn’t have that privilege that I recall, just the mess hall and everybody spent time there, oh and in the Korean hotel, their breakfast menu was open around the clock, I had at least four meals a day. Interviewer: “Alright, and was this all standard U.S Army food?” It was, yes. Interviewer: “Okay, so did you ever get a chance to sample any Korean food?” I was not interested. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did you get any leave time or R&R or anything like that?” R&R. Interviewer: “Okay and where did you go for that?” (40:20) Japan. Interviewer: “Okay, and what was that like?” Oh great, got a whole week. Interviewer: “And where did you go?” Just Tokyo and I didn’t do as much scurrying around as I should have but hindsights always great. Interviewer: “Right, how did the Japanese people seem to view Americans or treat them?” �Leet, James Oh, they're great. Interviewer: “And was it easy to get around Tokyo, could you find your way around?” I didn’t do much of that either, I kind of relaxed although, you know that was probably a misnomer, this was designed for the troops but that was– Next question. Interviewer: “Okay, it was just a nice break from being in Korea. Okay, now when you went to Korea did you have an understanding of how long you were going to be there?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, how long did you wind up staying there?” Eight months extended, typical was 17 months. Interviewer: “Okay, because they had– During the Korean war they did get to a point where a lot of combat troops would be in for probably not more than 12.” (42:10) Oh yeah. Interviewer: “But you were– Because you were in a support unit then you might potentially stay longer but in this case you stayed a shorter period of time. Okay now when you think about the time you spent in Korea, I mean I guess are there other memories or impressions that you got that you haven’t brought into the picture yet?” No but to back it up to Pusan, I was there about a week and someone relayed information say we got a car of ambulatory down there and the guys might need help. They happen to view my outfit from Oakland, they recognize me being the mail clerk and they were not clean and class A uniforms, so this’ll do, one size. When they told you their name then you could relate but– �Leet, James Interviewer: “Now were they a combat unit?” No that’s where– That was the problem when the war broke out they shipped everybody over there, if I had a rifle or anything such basic, most of them are like desk jobs and you know put them in the midst of an aggression. Interviewer: “Right because they had to fill out the ranks of the combat units they were sending over and they scraped up whatever personnel they could find in Japan and on the west coast and just sent them over. Okay, so they were put into combat units?” Oh yes, that’s all that was left but the bulk disarmament was from Japan, of course I’m not directly related to their functions while in Japan but I’m sure it was like stateside. Interviewer: “Well sure because the unit you were with I mean you were supposed to be repairing PT boats or that was the original idea. So yeah well they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Okay, so you kind of got lucky there.” (44:50) Oh I’ve been lucky all the way. Interviewer: “Alright, now how did you find out when you were going home?” Well probably by order. Interviewer: “Okay, now were you kind of going home by yourself or was the whole unit gonna go at the same time?” You know that whole area is misty, I can’t remember. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you went back home did you go on another ship? Did you go by sea to get back to the states?” �Leet, James Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember anything about that voyage?” Well one big part was going under the Golden Gate Bridge, I expected an uproar, you could hear a pin drop, very quiet. Interviewer: “Do you remember if men from your unit were sailing home with you?” Pardon me? Interviewer: “Were men from your unit sailing home with you?” Yes, but there was not very many men to start with. Interviewer: “Yeah, about how large was your battalion?” (46:30) Well very small, at most two men or four if it was– Interviewer: “Okay well that’s not a battalion that would be a pe….” That’s per station and well it builds on– We had I guess– If I had that little map I could– We only went up as far as Daejeon. It’s Daejeon and Taegu and Masan, one time [unintelligible] but– Interviewer: “So you had all– So if you had all the battalion together would you have a hundred men or 60 or 80?” 4-16-20 I’ll say a neighborhood of 30. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah so that is a very small unit.” �Leet, James But they don’t– We had replacements and so the original number, I think it was probably about 15, 20. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you got back to the states did you still have time left on your enlistment?” No, I was extended. Interviewer: “Okay you’ve been extended just to stay in Korea as long as you were. Alright so then I guess on your record here you indicate you’re actually discharged in the end of March 1952. Is that when you got back to the states or did you get back a little earlier than that and this is how long the processing took?” Oh processing was– Right along. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then– So were you actually discharged in California or did they send you back to a base in the midwest to discharge you?” (49:00) I was discharged in Michigan. Interviewer: “Okay, Fort Custer?” Custer, coming back we landed in the city of central Augusta. Interviewer: “Okay, now once you get back home– Okay you’re out of the Army now what do you do?” I did nothing for maybe a week, my neighbor approached my mother, says something to the effect of “Is Jim looking for work?” And she came and asked me and I went right next door, gave me employment and an interview and a job, took about 10, 15 minutes. �Leet, James Interviewer: “Okay and what kind of job was it?” Drafting. Interviewer: “Okay, had you had training for that?” I did it in school. Interviewer: “Okay, and did this lead to a career of some kind or did you try different things?” I stayed on that for six, seven years and somebody– The leader of the Instrument Department came over and he says “Got an offer.” He says “Would you be interested in joining our group?” Which was five guys and he said “You’d be training, and learning, and maybe go to school and you can go back whenever you want.” I did all that in the state till I retired. Interviewer: “Alright, now to look back at the time that you spent in the military do you think that that affected you at all or did you learn anything from it?” (51:41) No, I learned things that I didn’t want to, vileness, even overseas when you’re working but the only real activities is that you gotta pick up a call, or you gotta call somebody else and it’s not happening that fast, you can’t get worn out maybe mentally but there’s no head rush. Interviewer: “Okay, so you decided you didn’t like that.” Well, yes I did, I certainly did like it. Interviewer: “It was a bad habit then. Okay, but otherwise you don’t really figure that– In a way just being in the Army was kind of just another job?” �Leet, James Well yes, I raised my right hand– Interviewer: “And there you were.” So I belong to you. Interviewer: “Alright, well it gave you steady employment anyway for several years when you were looking for it. Alright, okay I guess I’ll close this out now and just say thank you very much for coming in and sharing the story. Oh, you got something else?” Oh I already mentioned it, I’m good. Interviewer: “Okay, thank you.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LeetJ2180V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leet, James Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11 Title A name given to the resource Leet, James (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource James Leet was born in Manistee, Michigan in 1930 and graduated from Manistee High in 1947 after which he spent a year doing carpentry work. In 1948 Leet enlisted in the Army and was sent to Fort Knox for eight weeks of basic training, after which he was sent to Fort Eustis, Virginia for training exercises as a shipfitter for four weeks. For regular duty Leet was sent to Oakland Army Base, California where he became a mail clerk, but took a brief furlough. During this time Leet received his orders to return to Fort Eustis and join the 714th Battalion, a railroad transportation battalion. After a stop in Japan, Leet’s battalion headed to Busan, South Korea in August of 1950 where he worked manning railroad stations. While working Leet visited cities such as Taegu, Andong, and Daejeon during his eight months in Korea. He was discharged at the end of March in 1952 at Fort Custer. After the Army, Leet worked doing drafting until he was approached to join the Instrument Department which he worked with until he retired. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dfcfc8bda9440cca8696d46f532004c9.mp4 6b77546bb7d90055cfa7522d37c97ec8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3dc88f5604c8937bf9f3a7ae3a3adb0d.pdf aa433c65a7ca456f1f48f13ac275deb9 PDF Text Text Lancaster, Duane Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Duane Lancaster Length of Interview: (56:22) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Duane Lancaster of Fort Lauderdale, Florida and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Duane, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” Okay. I was born on Burlingame on August 16th, 1942. Interviewer: “Okay. That’s Burlingame Avenue as in Grand Rapids?” Yeah. Yeah. It was known as Grand Rapids and it used to be a hill there and now it’s–– Interviewer: “Well how far south on Burlingame were you?” Well it was–– we were at the top of that, what used to be the hill. You see, it was 28th so it was probably around 36th or something. Interviewer: “Okay, alright.” Rogers Plaza [on 28th St. SW] is there now. Interviewer: “Alright.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so a whole lot less there then. So that was largely still farms at that point for the area?” Yeah. �Interviewer: “Okay. Alright, and then did you grow up in Grand Rapids?” I grew up in Grand Rapids. I went to Michigan State and then I–– my first job was as a sports writer in Saginaw. Interviewer: “Okay, so let’s back up here a little bit. What did your family do for a living when you were a kid?” Well my dad was a–– he worked at Kelvinator and he sprayed enamel on refrigerators. And the poor guy did that for 34 years. Then they, I guess, his last couple years there somebody thought it’d be a good idea if they wore masks. So he died of emphysema. He had in–– 34 years he was there. My mom was a housewife. She never did have a formal job. (2:14). Interviewer: “Okay. Alright, and so you’re born during World War II?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and so you would’ve been too young to really remember any of that probably.” That’s correct. I don’t remember the surrender or anything, and I missed Pearl Harbor. That’s a big history event that I missed. I also missed the Magna Carta but–– Interviewer: “Okay, alright. So when did you graduate from high school?” I graduated from high school–– and as a matter of fact I’m up here for our 60th class reunion–– but I graduated in 1961 from Wyoming Park High School. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. You went to Michigan State from there––” Well no, I went to Grand Rapids Junior College Center and then I graduated from Michigan State in 1965. When they were actually good in football. Interviewer: “They have been periodically, even in more recent years. Alright, okay. So you do that and then you got your job as a journalist in––” Saginaw, Michigan. Interviewer: “–– Saginaw, Michigan. Now, have you registered for the draft by then?” �No I hadn’t. No I hadn’t. In fact it all started, it was July of–– about a month after I graduated and I got a notice from my draft board that asks, “How come we no longer have a 2-S deferment for you?” And I, being quite gullible, wrote back, “Because I graduated.” Within three days I got a notice that said to report for my physical at Fort Wayne. Interviewer: “Okay, and that’s in Detroit?” In Detroit there. Canada was right across–– I remember looking at it and thinking about it and I finally was more scared to do that than I was to face whatever would come down. (4:05). Interviewer: “Alright. Well that’s still 1965, so––” Yeah. Yeah. This was the June of ‘65 so–– Interviewer: “–– so Vietnam has only just really started to heat up in terms of the ground war. We don’t––” Correct, yeah. Interviewer: “–– and we don’t have a lot of casualties coming back or things like that. It’s just something in the news. Okay? Alright––” And when I was at [Michigan] State I was never a big, vocal protester of the war. I did my best to ignore it as a matter of fact. So I never like laid across the street in protest of all that. Interviewer: “Well there wasn’t too much. Most of that stuff, at least what is famous, came later.” Yeah. Yeah. Right. Interviewer: “So at the time you were there–– I mean while you were still in school were you aware that, what was going on?” I was aware of Vietnam but like I said, my biggest concern was just to ignore it. I tried to pretend it didn’t happen, and I didn’t have any great political feelings about it. The only thing was I don’t want my butt to get involved in it. I didn’t have any strong feelings one way or the other about how the government should be run or anything like that. It just–– just count me out. Interviewer: “Didn’t really want to be bothered with it?” �That’s correct. Interviewer: “Alright. Okay, so now when they did the physical at Fort Wayne, how seriously did they take that?” Well, I remember telling them that I had a lot of things wrong with me. I told them that I had a criminal record–– that I bought beer for my little brother once. I told ‘em I had a really bad knee and I got to do an extra knee bend before he said, “You’re alright.” And I told ‘em I wet the bed, which nobody believed. The funny thing about that was that when I got out, all these things had cleared up. I said, “No. The Army must’ve really fixed me up” because I don’t have any of that problem anymore but–– (6:08). Interviewer: “Okay, so they passed you just fine.” Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, sure. Interviewer: “Alright. So you’re going to get the okay, but you have the physical, then you just go home?” Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: “Now did you get a draft notice?” Yes I actually did. I did have the greetings. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when did you get that?” That was probably in maybe September of that year. Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you got that notice?” That, then I says, “Hey, I better find a Reserve unit somewhere.” That’s the first time I started thinking about it. And I was really fortunate because I was a sports writer, and they still do it–– newspapers have a football tabloid where they prepare stuff for the high schools and all that. And it just so happened that one of the stories I did was with the Midland High School Coach Greer, who happened to be the Captain of the local reserve unit. And he–– he’s obviously the one who got me in. But the basic training logs were so backed up that I didn’t–– I was in the Reserves for about six months before I had to go to basic training. �Interviewer: “Okay, so once you enlist in the Reserves, now are you–– do you not do anything until after basic training?” No I–– no. I got the six months and it counted towards my six years. Interviewer: “Okay, but did you go to the local Reserve meetings?” Yes. Yes. I had to go to the drills and I guess I was a private which is a non-rank. I wasn’t–– (8:01). Interviewer: “Yeah. It’s sort of–– you have, you know, the Buck Privates or whatever, well you’re not even first class.” No. No. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. You had to get out of basic I think to be given PFC. Interviewer: “At least. If not, something like that.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Usually, you know, but by the time anyone who went to Vietnam was at least a PFC, but anyway, yeah. You’re not really–– so what did you do at the drills and stuff there in those first six months?” Well we would drill. We would go out into parking lots and drill. And that was another thing I wasn’t very proficient at, was drilling. I remember in basic a drill that–– it was something like first Squads to the Rear March and second, and you’re supposed to end up all together at the end, and we ended up streaming all. Yeah. So, no I didn’t like to drill but that’s what we did. I don’t– – I don’t think we had any particular classes or anything. It was mostly drill and what you had to do was two days a month or we could go four days at a four-hour drill at night. They were usually on Saturday and Sunday and–– or Thursday nights for four hours. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of mix of people were in your unit in terms of how old they were, their backgrounds?” Well, there weren’t very many Blacks I remember. In fact, I remember no Blacks. They were all from the Saginaw area. Interviewer: “And did you have people who had been active duty veterans who were back or were these––” �I ran across those only when we went to summer camp. And we’d have attachees, which I always thought was unfair because these guys had actually been in the real game. And they would always get the crap jobs of barracks or KP detail or something. And wear the yellow berets–– and the captain or whoever the head of the unit was, knew we had to go back and drill with these guys. So they always took care of us and he crapped on the real ones. And I always thought that was a really lousy thing that a guy who had actually been in and would have to go back and mess with us candlestick makers. (10:55). Interviewer: “Right. Okay, now what kind of unit was the one at Saginaw?” It was a military police unit. So after basic I had to go to Fort Gordon to military police school. Interviewer: “Okay. Alright, so you’re military police now, did you–– but you’re only–– so when you were doing those drills, before you went off to basic or to your advanced training, did you do anything with your unit that actually related to what MPs did?” Well during summer camp we would act as the police force for the–– we could give a speeding ticket and all such things. Interviewer: “But you hadn’t gone to summer camp yet, before you went to basic because you went––” No. No. I’d gone to basic before. Interviewer: “So when did you go to basic?” Finally–– I know it was in the winter so it must’ve been like January of that year, and I went to Fort Leonard Wood. And probably the thing I remember most about that was that the only thing that they seemed to spend much time on was the rifle range. We went out for three of our eight weeks on the rifle range and again I was pretty horrible at that. We had M14s and I got a black eye because I’d flinch every time, when I would shoot. True story: we had to qualify, I think 35 was a marksman out of maybe 120 shots. And the targets we shot at were pop-up targets, anywhere from 50 to 350 and they’d stay up for ten seconds. Interviewer: “That’s 50 feet away?” Yeah 50. Maybe–– no it was yards. It was either 50 yards away or 350. And the first time I went out there, I looked down at my barrel and I crossed and I got a 12, which might set a record for the lowest number of–– a 12. And they obviously wanted to know what was wrong and I told ‘em about seeing two barrels. So the next day I go out and they put a patch on my eye so now �I’m like John Wayne in True Grit, hunting for these dumb things, and I got a 17. And I just imagined this now, they’re saying “Hey! The basic training units are all backed up and we got this clown from the reserves who can’t hit the broad side of anything. We got to do something.” So the third day I go out there and I don’t think I fired 30 times. I got a 49. So I got the rifle with the little sling on it and everything and I was a sharpshooter. So when I went back to my unit and couldn’t hit the broad side of anything I just said, “It’s gotta be the weapon because it says here I’m a sharpshooter.” (14:04). Interviewer: “Now when you were in basic were you in a group that was all reservists?” Yes. 80 percent of my unit was–– were–– reservists, and so we won the mule for the next cycle by being the worst unit. Like I said, about 80 percent of us were ERs and NGs. “ER 7748074 Sir.” Yeah, we won Zeke the mule for the next unit that goes there. And, we were all pretty good on the written test, but the PT test and the drill tests were just horrible. Interviewer: “Okay. Now were–– had a lot of these guys been to college?” Yeah. Most of ‘em were. I–– almost, you almost had to be in college to get into the Reserves. So yeah. And then–– and most of us were a bit older, in our 20’s, so I didn’t have the big thing of missing home and things like that, but I wasn’t in shape like these 17 year old guys and everything, so that was really hard for me. I think you had to run a mile in six minutes or something and I did it in eight or something. Yeah. So I was not very physically up on- and I smoked then, so. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did the drill instructors treat you?” The biggest thing I remember about our particular Sergeant Fada was he could not say a sentence without using the “F-word.” Everything was “Effing outstanding” and there was one I, for some reason, I really feared. His name was Sergeant Purcell and he was–– he must’ve been a Native Indian or something but I was really afraid of him. When he spoke, I listened. The other ones kind of went in one ear and out the other, but. Purcell I was quite–– yeah. (16:15). Interviewer: “Alright. How much of an emphasis was there on discipline there?” Well, there was quite a bit of emphasis. I didn’t take it that seriously, but yeah there was–– well there was–– they didn’t put up with too much back talk or mouthing off. Yeah. Interviewer: “As far as you could tell, did they treat the people who were actual draftees or ones going onto active duty–– do they treat them any differently from you or––” �Well, we thought so. We thought we were picked on because they always ask your service number and if you were regular Army it was RA something, and I’d say ER and right away that was ten push-ups. Interviewer: “And were, I think, draftees maybe U.S. or they had something––” Yeah.Yeah. Interviewer: “–– but a draftee is still going in for, you know, real action.” Yeah. Interviewer: “But the enlisted–– but ERs, Enlisted Reserve, and so that’s––” Oh yeah. I thought we were picked on anyway. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get disciplined in different ways yourself?” No, not personally I don’t remember getting–– no. I had my regular tour at KP and watching a brick building–– a fire watch–– at two in the morning but everybody did that. Interviewer: “There’s the regular rotation of duties and things everybody does. Now with the whole platoon or group you were training with sometimes be punished for something doing extra push-ups or whatever?” I don’t really remember that happening. The whole unit was–– Interviewer: “Yeah. And were there men in your unit who were–– who screwed up in a way that they got attention from the drill instructors or was it all fairly––” It was all fairly. Yeah, you know. (18:08). Interviewer: “Okay because I think that experience varies a lot just depending on what unit you’re trying––” Oh yeah, and if I had taken it seriously I guess it would’ve been kind of bad. But, one of the reasons I just couldn’t take it seriously is we would have classes–– probably up to 50 people–– and I remember our instructor one time saying, “Alright, you’re sitting in a rice paddy and a Viet Cong comes up. Charlie comes up behind you and puts a weapon on you. What are you going to do?” Well, geez. I’m going to surrender and tell them whatever they want. And he said, “No. �You go ‘Ha!’ and you carry his rifle with this hand.” Are you kidding me? Are you serious? So I just couldn’t take that and that was an introduction to hand-to-hand combat–– which we spent an afternoon on. And that was the thing that–– I think that if they’re going to send me to Vietnam, I would have demanded to go through it again. And I’ll pay attention this time because the rifle range was the only thing we spent any amount of time on. A half-day on hand-to-hand combat, a half-day on throwing a grenade, and just brushing over things. And I said, “They really sent people with this kind of training to [Vietnam].” Yeah it was–– Interviewer: “Well the Infantryman would have had at least advanced individuals––” Yeah, right. This, of course, was going on before I went to military police school. Interviewer: “This is just general for everybody.” Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: “And at that point they didn’t have that many people back yet from Vietnam who actually knew what was going to happen.” No, that’s true. Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, so how long did basic training last?” Eight weeks. Actually ours was nine because we got started a week late because there was a snowstorm in Michigan and our plane didn’t take off. But I was there nine weeks and then they sent me to Fort Garden for another eight weeks. So a total of 17 weeks, and the week that we didn’t train they just sent us around the camp and we had to pick up litter and things like that. But I was–– I guess it was alright. (20:32). Interviewer: “Yeah. So you were late, so you missed the start of your regular training.” Yeah. And then they had to start with the next third cycle to start. Interviewer: “But they’re starting every week––” Yeah. Interviewer: “So what was Fort Leonard Wood like? What do you remember about the place?” �Well, I went there in February. I remember it was cold, very cold. And I remember before breakfast we had to swing on the monkey bars and I couldn’t do that. I’d have to go in and hang there and I got blisters from doing that. So I thought I could get out of it by not going to breakfast but they made me do it anyway, to go to breakfast. The only thing I heard a lot of gripes about that I didn’t think was so bad was the food. The food wasn’t that bad. It was–– called it Shit on a Shingle and that was pretty good, I thought. Yeah, but everything else they said about it was true. Interviewer: “How did they get you from Fort Leonard Wood to Fort Gordon?” We flew. Interviewer: “Okay, and were you flying on commercial planes or?” Yeah. We were on commercial planes. Interviewer: “Because I guess your class would have split-up and gone in different directions from basics so you’re not going as a group somewhere.” Yeah. Most of us had been–– because we were in the Reserves–– were predestined to where we’d go after that anyway. Interviewer: “Now, did you pick MP or did they pick that for you?” No, that just happened to be the Reserve Unit. And I never did get out on police duty. I was a clerk typist. They had enough sense to keep me in from that, and the cruddy thing about that I always thought was patrol, you had to learn when an officer’s car was going by so you could salute it. And I wouldn’t know that, I’d look around and look for a blue sticker on that foot. No, I was just a clerk typist, so I didn’t have to–– (22:35). Interviewer: “So describe the training at Fort Gordon.” The main thing I remember about Fort Gordon’s training was we practiced with a .45 and for some reason I wasn’t that bad with a .45. I actually, legitimately, qualified with that. And–– now let’s see, what was–– the classes. The classes on the Uniform Code of Military Justice. They were so boring and I remember there was a guy that stood in the back with a big, long stick and he’d bonk you on the head with it if you’d dozed off. And that got to be so bad that–– and then by then I had not totally gotten over, but I wasn’t as scared then as I was when I first went in. So us and maybe another five or six of us decided we weren’t going to those classes anymore. So when the column went around the corner, we went to these woods and slept the afternoon away. �I know we finally got caught doing that and we had to spend a day chopping down the wood and chopping down the woods in there, so that others wouldn’t do it. But yeah. I remember those classes just being just horribly dull. (24:03). Interviewer: “How did you do on the test?” Again, on the written test it was–– I did okay, but on the PT and of course, the answers wasn’t quite so much on PT there as it was in basic. Though, one of the things it reminded me of–– when I was in basic we were going to have an inspection general, where a general comes through, and I can remember it. Two in the morning, lying on my back under my bunk, straightening the wires on there. And of course when he came through he didn’t even look at us. He just drove by without–– and that’s the only time I ever saw a general, so I don’t know what they’re like. Interviewer: “Alright. What were the instructors at Fort Gordon like? Were they any different from the ones you had at Leonard Wood?” Well again, most of the instruction I had in AIT, Advanced Individual Training, was lectures in classrooms. Yeah. Whereas the one in basic was–– Interviewer: “More physical––” ––yeah. More physical stuff and–– Interviewer: “–– and that kind of stuff.” –– one of the things I remember about AIT was I did a lot of things with a Black kid named Percy–– what was his name? Percy Lam. We threw the grenades together and did hand-to-hand combat together. And I can remember at graduation they said his name and they said, “Percy Lamb–Saigon.” And he said, “Duane Lancaster–Saginaw.” And I don’t know if Saginaw sounded like Saigon or what but I could just feel that kid when we went back in line, staring at me and saying, “How come I’m going to Saigon and this white dude is going to go back to Saginaw. I always kind of wondered about Percy. I went to the Vietnam Wall and I didn’t find his name on it so hopefully Percy got through–– Interviewer: “If he went as an MP, odds are pretty high that he came through in one piece. A lot of the combat casualties––” Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Yeah. Yeah. �Interviewer: “Yeah. And that early–– if he had gone that soon, gone in ‘66 then it wasn’t–– might not have been as bad as it would’ve been later. But yeah. Okay, yeah. He got through. Of course, he would’ve been a draftee or a regular enlistee though.” Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. He was one of the few that was–– yeah. (26:38). Interviewer: “Yeah, well now when you were at AIT did you still have a lot of reservists or did you have more guys who were going full-time?” Not as much as–– it wasn’t basic but yeah, there was maybe about half of us were ERs and NGs. Interviewer: “At AIT did they treat the reservists and others differently?” No, I actually–– not. Well I–– I sure thought they did in basic but I–– yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah. AIT could be a different set up there. Now, did you get to go off base at all when you were at Fort Gordon?” No. And that’s one of the reasons I always felt sorry for the squad leader, because we were so bad we–– they took away the privilege. So the poor squad leader would have to go to the thing and buy stuff for us, and keep track of the money, and go there and get toothpaste and have to bring your 79 cents back from your dollar. Interviewer: “So you couldn’t even go to the PX to buy stuff?” No. No, we were–– they considered that a privilege. Interviewer: “So even in AIT you were with a unit that was messing up badly enough––” Yeah. Yeah. We were not–– Interviewer: “Asking that in part because before Gordon, you’re down in Georgia and that’s still mid-60s and there’s a lot of racial tension or issues going on. A lot of the Civil Rights Acts have passed but places still segregated but I mean–– did you notice any of that at all with the segregation or racial issues or were you so isolated––” Again, most of our–– both in basic and AIT, most of them were whites anyway. So it really wasn’t–– Percy was one of the few Blacks that I knew there. �Interviewer: “And you weren’t out in the community, so you couldn’t see what that was like.” No. No, I got to Augusta once and went to a brothel there, but I never got to see wrong. I never got to see the Masters Tournament but–– and I was only once I remember. I think it was eight weeks, I had one and I’m not–– I must have spent overnight there because that was about 20 miles from Fort Gordon, so I must’ve spent overnight there. And in basic I did not leave our barracks at all. (29:12). Interviewer: “That was fairly common. Okay, so when did you finish AIT?” It was in April sometime, and then they flew me home. And I went back to my Reserve Unit in– – was it Saginaw? No. By the time I got out of AIT I had–– no. I was–– I went back to Saginaw and got credit for the six months that I had waited to get in and the 17 weeks. So, I went back to Saginaw with–– I think I was a PFC by then. Interviewer: “And then with your unit at Saginaw, did you get a regular assignment or were you just a guy?” I was. Yeah. Even though we’re an MP unit we obviously didn’t do anything in this–– in the town. The only time we did that was in summer camp. Interviewer: “Okay, so talk about summer camp. Where do you go, what do you do?” Well, I was in two different units, like I said, and no matter what I ended up at Camp McCoy, Wisconsin. I guess it’s a Fort now. Like I said, when I went as a military police unit, we were the MPs for like two weeks. When I went with the transportation unit, I don’t really think we served a function except our own training that we went there [for]. (30:52). Interviewer: “Alright. So then,with the MP unit–– I mean–– what do you remember about the first camp you went to?” I remember we took a caravan from Saginaw around Lake Michigan, and we stayed overnight in some little town in Indiana, I remember. We were supposed to pitch our pup-tents and–– but–– I didn’t want to do that, so I crawled on top of the truck to try to sleep. And it rained at night and I rolled around and I was just a filthy mess when I–– by that morning. I had grease all over my face and hands. Interviewer: “So were you in the back of the truck or were you up––” �No, I was on the top of that. Well if I had enough sense to sleep in the cab I would have probably been alright. When I went on top of that–– maybe somebody else was already in the cab. Interviewer: “Alright. It starts to rain, you don’t go to find a place where you can––” Well by then–– but I was shafted by then. Yeah I just gutted it out. Interviewer: “Then once you got there what was it like?” Well, there are two things I remember–– and for some reason all of the things we went through [in] basic training I hated, the gas chamber was not one of them. I didn’t mind that. You took your mask off and said your service number in the gas room. Interviewer: “And that’s when they’re sending–– putting–– tear gas in?” Yeah. Yeah. Either it didn’t bother me or they had a weak thing but it didn’t–– it really didn’t bother me, but we were going to do it and we did again, a couple other conspiracies and I decided we didn’t want to do that. So again, when they went around the corner we broke off and went back to the bus and told the bus driver that we were through. So we got on the bus and took off and we look out the back and there’s Captain Clipboard. He was an ROTC guy from Central Michigan. He’s running after us and when we got back to camp finally, he was gonna tear us up. We said, “You mean you’re going to tell your superiors that you let this whole group of men–– lost track of them?” So he signed our things that we had gone through anyway. Captain Clipboard. By then I was, like I said, not quite as afraid. I was scared to death in basic, I’ll be real honest with you. The worst time of my life was when we crawled the infiltration course. I remember it was about six o’clock when we started, and there were these big rumors about whether the bullets were real or not. And they said the machine guns were cemented in place, but I swear I saw something go by at night. So I started with group B and I ended up with group G. I found a hole and just stayed there. That was the most terrifying thing I ever went through was that, and I–– to this day–– don’t know if they really–– but it sure looked real to me. I saw some kind–– and it was quite dark out by the time I finished it, so I think it was an hour-and-a-half from the time I started and finished. (34:38). Interviewer: “Well they would have at least had tracers, so you could see little streaks of light go past.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah. Whether they were otherwise blank rounds or not, who knows, but yeah.” �And then I wanted to tell you this. This is–– this now maybe I’ve been in for five years, this is at a drill. When we had an all-day drill they had to feed us and we decided, a few of us, that we were going to skip lunch and play basketball. But while they were setting up for lunch, I went by this table that had these little pies on it. I thought “We’ll, I’ll have one of those before we play and I won’t be quite so hungry.” So I started eating it and I got juice running down the side of my face and everything, and I guess it was a sergeant who came over and saw that I was eating this pie. He said, “What’s the name soldier?” And in a moment of brilliance I said, “Apple, sir.” That was my best line ever. And I think I got an Article 15 for that–– Article 14 or 15 or something. I know I again–– Interviewer: “You got written up for it basically.” Yeah. I had to go in and type it myself, but it was worth it. That was the best line I ever had. (36:08). Interviewer: “So about how long did you spend with the Saginaw unit?” About a year-and-a-half and the only reason I transferred was I transferred jobs. I went from Saginaw to Ferris. Ferris State College as a–– as their Sports Information Director. Interviewer: “How did you wind up with that job?” It’s funny how when you’re young, you don’t like to get pushed around. But there was a guy that was on the sports staff who announced that he wanted to be a city side reporter and so for summer he went over there and I was told that I would take his place. Which meant instead of covering Central Michigan and Alma, I’d get to cover Michigan State and Michigan and that. So I got quite excited about that, and then he decided near the end of the summer that he wanted to go back to sports. And they told me I was back on the Alma and–– so I started looking around. It could have been for another newspaper job, but I saw that there was an opening at Central Michigan, so I went over there and applied for that job. In the meantime, I guess Ferris must’ve contacted different people to see and they said, “Oh there’s this guy from Saginaw who interviewed with us.” And they came and actually recruited me, which is an uncomfortable thing to be in. When they want you and you don’t care whether you get the job or not too much. But, I went over there for $9,100 a year, a 12 year contract. Which is better than $125 I was making at Saginaw. But, I guess one of the neat things about that [was] this was in 1968 and Ferris had it’s only undefeated football season. I took credit for that. But that’s how I ended up there and then my other thing wasn’t–– then I had to find a unit and I found one in Grand Rapids. And that was kind of a pain because every–– well at least one weekend a month–– I had to drive down to Grand Rapids and–– (38:44). �Interviewer: “Well was US-131 a proper highway then?” Yeah. It’s not like it was now. It was only two lanes. But my folks lived in Wyoming so I stayed overnight with them when I came down, but. Interviewer: “Then so the transportation unit, I mean what kind of work did that involve or what did they do?” I really don’t know. It was a transportation unit–– I guess we hauled stuff, equipment to different places but again, I was in the office most of the time. They had enough sense there to not make me drive a truck or something silly like that. Interviewer: “Now when you’re with these units, did you get to know some people well or make some friends in the group or just kind of hang out by yourself?” I can’t say any of this. Oh, there was one kid–– what was his name? Kipnis I think. He and I were supposed to be partners. He had one half of the pup-tent and I had the other. And he was pretty–– Wendell. That was his name. He was pretty good, I never did learn how to put up a puptent. So if we ever did camp, he’s the one that put it up. Yeah. Joe Wendell. Interviewer: “And then how long did you actually stay in the Reserves?” Your obligation is six years. So from 1966 to 1972. And I can remember my last drill. The government said I owed the $350 because I lost a pup-tent and maybe some boots or something. But I didn’t quibble, and I told ‘em that all those problems I had, my bad knee and bed wetting, were all cleared up thanks to the Army. So I paid ‘em $350 right on the spot and got out of there. (40:53). Interviewer: “Now, you’re in during i–– because you’re in basically the whole time when Vietnam was kind of a large scale––” Oh, yes. Interviewer: “–– in any way did kind of that atmosphere at home or the anti-war movement or the rest. I mean did that affect you or your unit in any way or were you totally disconnected?” Well, the only thing that I got really serious about–– as much as I made fun and disliked the meetings, I made sure I went to them because if you missed two unexcused, you could be activated. So, I was very serious about that. I would–– I never missed a drill. �Interviewer: “And did you have to keep your hair short?” Yes, yes we did. Interviewer: “Okay, so people could look at you and figure you were military or were there enough people with short hair in Big Rapids––” Well, when we went to–– obviously taught drill, they knew. Up in Big Rapids they didn’t know that I was and I never made too much bones about it. I wasn’t terribly proud of anything. (42:04). Interviewer: “Now did you do all of your field stuff at Camp McCoy or did you ever go to Camp Grayling or––” No. No, like I said no matter what it was always Camp McCoy. And I can remember it was about 70 miles from La Crosse, Wisconsin and I recall skipping out a few afternoons to go to La Crosse and spending that–– because I did finally come to the conclusion that the punishment never equaled the crime. You were always better off doing something because they never–– they threatened you with an Article 15 and I guess that would have been an issue if you were looking for a job, but you’ve already had employment. I didn’t care if it followed me the rest of my life or not, yeah. Yeah that was the one lesson I learned. “Don’t play it by the book cause you’re a lot better off” and that’s why I said I was probably one of the worst soldiers that ever went to–– because I didn’t take it seriously except for the infiltration course. That was the only thing I took there–– well all the basic training I guess I took pretty seriously because I was afraid of what–– Interviewer: “You were afraid of it, although you had said earlier––” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “–– you wish you would learn more while you were there.” Oh, I would have demanded to go through it again, and like I said, this time I’ll pay attention to what you’re saying but how they could send people over there with that little training, I–– oh–– wow. Like three weeks on the rival range and everything else was like a half-day of something, right? Straight over. Interviewer: “If you think over your six years in the service are there other particular memories that stand out for you that you haven’t brought into the story yet?” �No I can’t say. I can’t–– Interviewer: “Is she nodding okay or–” She’s not even there now. Interviewer: “So as far as you know that––” Oh, there she is. Interviewer: “So then, what’s the process when your time comes to an end? I mean do you just stop showing up or what happens at the end, when you’re discharged?” I’m not sure what you mean by that. Interviewer: “Well, okay. You get to the end, I mean, is there paperwork to fill out?” Oh yeah. You had to fill out this form, I guess because the government doesn’t want you to come back and sue them for anything. So yeah, I just signed. I had to sign this form saying all these problems I had cleared up miraculously. It was a tough army life. (44:39). Interviewer: “Now, are there any benefits to being in the Reserves?” No. As a matter of fact, I’m trying to find that out. Like I said, I really don’t know if I am a veteran or not. If I am supposed to— and I asked a Reserve unit once, and if I wanna get a loan to go to college or buy a house they said I could. But I don’t know the medical thing, I don’t know if I got really all of the government— Interviewer: “Could you get VA benefits?” Yeah. I actually don’t know that yet. I don’t think I deserve them. Interviewer: “You’ve already been to college—” Yeah. Going to college they wouldn’t— well I went to Michigan State, I don’t know if that’s considered going to college or not. Interviewer: “Now did you continue with a career in media or public relations, or did you go onto other stuff from there?” �Yeah, I finally got really sick of the winters, so when I finally got out of the Reserves, and I can remember around October saying, “Oh jeez, here it comes again.” And I finally decided that I can’t live like this, this is awful. So I applied for jobs nowhere north of Atlanta. I kept it on the East Coast but nowhere— and I was lucky enough that there was a job opening in Fort Lauderdale with the Sun Sentinel. I thought the worst that I can get or the least I can get out of this is a free trip to Florida, but they hired me over the phone. And so I moved down there and I worked for that newspaper for about five years. And then I took a job with another, smaller, paper called The Hollywood Sun Tattler, and I worked there about seven years and it went out of business. And so now here I am about 50 and I had to go get a real job, and I got a job with a roofing company until I spilled some tar on my wrist, and then I quit that and I ended up being a truck driver for an oil company. I lost that job because I wrecked the truck and I ended up being a janitor for the city of North Lauderdale. I spent the last seven years there. I finally found out that a city job is a pretty good job for a loaf because there’s no private motive involved, so if you don’t do it Monday, we can do it Tuesday. The benefits were pretty good— the pay was not that great but— I ended up as a city employee. (47:32). Interviewer: “Now, when you were a sports writer in Florida, did you cover things like, sort of, major league type events?” Yeah. The best thing I got to do was I covered the Dolphins for about six years, that was way before Marina was even there. And the best thing I got to do was I covered the AFC Championship game when the Dolphins beat the Jets, and then went to play the 49ers in the Superbowl. When I say I covered them, I got to go to the practices in the hot afternoon and get a story. I got to cover the home games but the boss, the sports editor, made the trips and I usually had a game. Would have to go to the losing locker room because he always wanted to go to the winning locker room. Which means I didn’t interview Shula that often except at practices. I’d usually have to go interview the Bills coach or something. I like that, that’s what I really wanted to do all my life, but it went out of business. Here we are, little Hollywood, with a Miami Herald south of us in the Fort Lauderdale paper and north of us. I tried to argue once that the only way we could stay in business is to be a ma-pop people report. The little league scores and don’t worry about the dolphins, but they went the other way and they went out of business. Then I had to go find a real job. (49:07). Interviewer: “All right.” I still am a sports writer at heart, only because I am a frustrated jock. I would not have been a police reporter or court reporter or anything like that. It’s just because when I was about 11 I got cut from the little league team [and] I realized I wasn’t gonna be the center fielder for the Tigers. I thought that might — and I found out I could put a word in front of the other without messing it up too badly, so I was a sports writer for about a total of 20 years. �Interviewer: “Think back a little bit to your service experience— what was your view of the whole anti-war movement and the stuff going on during that time when you were in the service?” I didn’t have any strong feelings either. Like I said, as long as it didn’t involve me I don’t— Interviewer: “Just kind of minded your own business?” Yeah. Just keep me out of it. I mean, what was it? All these things— I had no quarrel with no kong? Kind of how I was. Interviewer: “Except you went in and he didn’t want to.” Yeah. Interviewer: “But I guess he was drafted, they were going to take him and make him— because he did not get in the Reserves. Then I guess, finally, to think back in that time in the service, what do you think you learned from that or took out of it?” Learn as far as? Interviewer: “Anything. Life, practical skills, people skills.” Well, it made me real— how should I say? Self-preserving. That I really wanted to look out for old number-one. It made me see the futility of war, I thought that was the dumbest thing mankind has ever attempted. Because it doesn’t seem to change things. If you look back to World War II, and I’m not trying to pretend I’m a history major or anything, but Japan who was our enemy is now our— not friends, certainly not— (51:33). Interviewer: “They’re our friends pretty much.” I never thought war ever solved anything, including the Civil War. That’s one thing I fancy myself, I really like the Civil War. But I think things would have worked out anyway, we didn’t have to have a war. Just as I think we would have— didn’t have to fight the Revolutionary War/ I think eventually England would have to let us go. Whatever was solved in Vietnam, I don’t know. Interviewer: “Not a whole-heck-of-a-lot.” �It’s funny because the closer the wars are to us in years, the less I know about them. Desert storm, I don’t know what that was supposed to solve or anything. Interviewer: “Now we’re just finishing up 20 years in Afghanistan having accomplished basically nothing.” Yeah. Interviewer: “The whole thing makes for an interesting story in its own way and a good counterpoint to ‘Oh, this is what happens to the people.’ The Vietnam veterans will often talk about those guys who went into the Reserves.” I’ll bet you they hold us in a little bit of contempt. I think I would have. Interviewer: “Well, some of them are envious and some of them are envious, and some of them would hold you in contempt.” The one thing that most of them have said is that they do consider me a veteran and that means a lot to me because like I said, I still don’t know. If we have Veteran’s Day services or something and they say, “Veterans stand” or something, I don’t know if I should or not. I have on sometimes and other times I haven’t. Interviewer: “Well, my measure in part is: did you go to basic training?” I went to basic training, and I do have a— maybe it’s gone now— but I do have a hunk of paper that’s an honorable discharge. (53:14). Interviewer: “There you go. But I mean even that experience by itself, that learning something of the military life is something that 99 percent of Americans under the age of 70 don’t have.” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “So you’re in that kind of select group that’s right—” Yeah. My little brother never went in because he became a school teacher, just to avoid it. Interviewer: “That trick didn’t always work.” Yeah, it didn’t. �Interviewer: “It depends a little bit on local draft boards at that point, I suppose. Because I’ve known school teacher people who got jobs as school teachers who got taken anyway.” I sometimes wonder if, and I doubt it seriously, if any of my ancestors were very military like and I don’t think so. My dad was not in the service because he was too young for World War I and had three kids, four kids, by the time World War II came around, so he missed it. Interviewer: “Your brother was in?” Yeah. Dale was in. And it’s kind of funny because I didn’t really talk to him much about it. I don’t— until I saw his tape that you did with him. Didn’t really know how and what he thought about it. Even though he didn’t see combat, at least he was in the real game. Interviewer: “He was in it. He went overseas and he had interesting—” Yeah. The best I did was the Battle of Camp McCoy. Interviewer: “There we are.” I can remember once, and it must have been during a summer camp, that they didn’t give us weapons or something. I remember standing guard with a big stick once thinking, “What are you— are your tax dollars at work? What are you training me for? To be a forest ranger? I guess I can ask, were you in the service there? No. Interviewer: “I grew up with Vietnam on television.” So how did you become kind of interested in veterans? Interviewer: “I always was interested in military history and I have no idea why except maybe it was so foreign to my own experience. But then as you start to read it and you learn more about it, then it all just kind of keeps going.” (55:32). I’ve always kind of wondered what kind of man it would take to be a General. To have that many lives and make decisions. I just— I think you gotta have an ego that just won’t quit. So I have become kind of interested in that. I like Patton, I have been to his museum a few times, and I do wonder “What made him tick?” Interviewer: “Well I can recommend a very good biography for you, but that’s probably getting a little bit off course.” �Oh yeah. Interviewer: “So now as you think further again, are there any other stories that ought to be on record here that we do—” I don’t think so. Interviewer: “Okay. Well, very good. Thank you very much.” Well thanks for your time. (56:22). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LancasterD2369V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lancaster, Duane A. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-08 Title A name given to the resource Lancaster, Duane (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Duane Lancaster was born August 16, 1942 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Lancaster grew up in the Grand Rapids area and lived there until for most of his adolescent life. He graduated from Wyoming Park High School in 1961, and from there he attended Grand Rapids Junior College Center. Later he transferred to Michigan State University, where he graduated in 1965. Upon graduation, Lancaster began his first job as a sportswriter in Saginaw Michigan. However, in July of 1965 Lancaster was called for the draft and in September of that same year received his draft notice. This is when Lancaster decided to begin looking for a Reserve unit somewhere. He was able to find one locally and eventually began the process of basic training in Fort Gordon. Within the Reserve Unit, Lancaster was assigned the job of MP or military police, within the Saginaw, Michigan area. Lancaster had an obligation of six years in the Reserves, serving officially from 1966 to 1972. After his service ended with an honorable discharge, Lancaster moved to Fort Lauderdale, Florida where he began working as a sportswriter at a local newspaper. In more recent years, Lancaster has spent his time working for the city as a janitor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46e76177bf4bad76c8ed62c2bab42ddb.mp4 8f808669c7f25f4611510fdc70dfafb9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1ae86c8895cf896f1d085fc3932a4876.pdf 6b9b9c6bc6e4e3866fb497939ab903ba PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Interviewee’s Name: Ronald Konyndyk Length of Interview: 1:10:32 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman Interviewer: We’re talking today with Ron Konyndyk of Muskegon, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, so Ron, start with some background on yourself and to begin with: where and when were you born? I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan into a very good home, with a very stable home; a father that went to work every day and a mother that stayed home and took care of us kids every day, and ended up going through high school and then going on to college after that. Probably the biggest reason for going to college was to avoid the draft. Interviewer: Okay, let’s back up a little bit and fill in a couple of things. What year were you born? In 1944. Interviewer: Alright. And where was your father when you were born? He was in the Army, he had been drafted a little later on. I even had an older brother, too, so they were taking just about everybody at that time. Interviewer: Right. And you don’t know a whole lot about your father’s service career? Well, we’re digging now where we’re starting to find out some things. I have a brother and a sister that are very diligent and working to find out more. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and then what was your father doing for a living when you were growing up? He worked as an executive at a furniture company. �Interviewer: Okay. And when did you finish high school? Finished highschool in 1962, June of ‘62. Interviewer: Okay, and where did you go to college? (2:13) I went to Ferris State College in Big Rapids, Michigan. Took a few courses once and awhile at Davenport College because they would transfer back and forth. It was a little cheaper to do it that way because then I could live at home, too. Interviewer: Alright. And just divided up the college time a little bit that way, but the last two years, three years, something like that was all at Ferris State University. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you take a degree in? It was business. Interviewer: All right, now did you work while you were in school? Yes. Worked very hard because I paid my entire tuition bill myself. I guess my folks weren’t happy with the way I didn’t apply myself in high school like I probably should have, and weren’t real willing to support me in my college endeavors so I had a job, a lot of different jobs but the primary one was I was working a night shift at Keeler Brass Company two nights a week and one of the nights was Friday night, so went and did it that way. Paid very good so I was able to pay for my own car and my own tuition and my own room and board. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and when did you graduate? I graduated in May of 1967. Interviewer: All right. Now, had you already had a draft physical or something like that early on? They were constantly hounding me because there was one term where I didn’t take any classes and because of that they really started getting on my case, I just worked. I had a fella in our church that was in the real estate business—they knew I took a bunch of real estate courses and he said “Come to work for me for a while” which I did. Enjoyed that very much, should have �gone back to that after my Vietnam experience but I didn’t. But I enjoyed that and had to go back to college because the draft people were all over me at that time. It was amazing the way they kept track of me. Interviewer: Okay, so, basically did you have to demonstrate to them that you were in fact returning to school the next term? Oh yes. They had to see copies of everything. Interviewer: All right. So you knew you were already basically on their list and once you graduated you were going to get drafted. (5:00) And that’s why I was in no hurry to finish and I kept thinking that the Vietnam War was going to start to wind down and they weren’t going to need as many people but unfortunately it kept ramping up the whole time to the point where in 1967, when I graduated, boy—they were after everybody they could get. Interviewer: All right. And when did you get the draft notice? Well, I got the draft notice probably the week after I graduated, but what I was trying to do to stall things was I was trying to enlist in the Air Force, but I only wanted to do that if I could get in this specific area in Officers Training School, and I even had Jerry Ford who was my representative at that time try to help me out, but he couldn’t even get me in Officers Training School because everybody that was graduating from college was doing that. Interviewer: Right. And so then I thought, “Well, my only hope is just they’ll find a good job for me and I’ll be out in 2 years instead of 4 years.” Interviewer: Right, cause if you’re drafted, in the Army anyway, then it’s two-years. Two years, yup. Interviewer: Okay, so you are able to delay induction for a while by doing this. So when do you actually have to report for training? I reported for training, I think it was on December 7th of 1967. Interviewer: Okay. At this point what did you know about Vietnam? �I knew it was kind of a nasty war and it was escalating and… it was kind of a little bit before all the protests were coming in and that kind of stuff. Right after I got here, then that just started to explode. Interviewer: All right. Now, what’s the sequence for processing you? Where do you report initially and where do they send you? Well… I got on a bus right at the draft board in downtown Grand Rapids and they took us on a bus down to Detroit, I think it was Fort Jefferson or something like that. Interviewer: Yeah, or Fort Wayne, maybe? (7:15) Or Fort Wayne, something like that, I knew it was on Jefferson Street, I think. Because then you had to go through all your physical stuff for pretty much the whole day. Interviewer: Okay. And I always tell the story that I was on the bus with a fellow that I knew a little bit and he was determined, when he got off the bus in Detroit, that he was headed for the border because that was another way to avoid it, and never saw him again. To this day, I’ve never seen him, but he was not on the plane that night headed to Fort Knox. Interviewer: Alright, did you consider going to Canada or were you just do your thing? You know… I had pretty much made up my mind ahead of time that I had to do what I had to do and I’m sure my family would have been disappointed. There was no end to, at that time, people going to Canada. You didn’t know when you could ever come back. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now when you do the physical there at Detroit, how serious a physical was it? It was… not all—I was disappointed because they were giving me a test for colorblindness and they flipped through all the things, you had to read the number on every page and, you know, I couldn’t see a lot of them cause I do have colorblindness and the guy slammed the book shut, he said, “We’re going through this again.” I get done and he says, “Anybody ever tell you you’re color blind?” I says “Yeah, I couldn’t tell a brown uniform from a green one or a black one.” and he says, “You still pass.” Interviewer: When Uncle Sam needs you… �He needs you, it was off to Fort Knox. Interviewer: Did you notice anybody trying to scam the system in one way or another? Or do anything that would get them kicked out? No, not really. Interviewer: All right. Some people do, some don’t, so I ask. Well, if you were doing that you had to do it way ahead of the physical. Interviewer: All right, so now you basically spend a day and then they load you on up? (9:30) A charter plane… Interviewer: Okay. To Fort Nox. Interviewer: All right. That’s down in Kentucky. Yup. Interviewer: What kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox? Your world is completely changed. You gotta do everything an E-2 Corporal tells you you have to do or your in trouble, and you learn discipline that way, so and, you know, they really enforced a lot of things because what they needed was discipline. So. And then you have to go through the thing of getting all kinds of shots and getting issued all your equipment and your clothes, that kind of stuff, and assembled into different companies and your barracks. Interviewer: Were you one of the older guys there? Yes. Interviewer: Were there some other guys like you who had been to college and got drafted? �When we were in the big room with all of us—there were 180 of us and they asked how many graduated from high school. Only about half the hands went up, and then they asked how many graduated from 4 years of college and there were 4. That really told me right there. Interviewer: Okay, now then, what does the training itself consist of? We had to go through all kinds of different things. Every day was something: one day that really stood out was when we had to go in tear gas and take off our mask and tell them what our name and what our army number was and all that, and then put the gas mask back on and clear it before we could leave out of there and that was not a pleasant experience. But one of the other, we had to march up to the rifle range a lot and do a lot of different training and learn how to set all the settings on your rifle. Interviewer: And what kind of rifle were you training with? We were actually training with the… it was not the M-16, I think it was the M-14 or something like that. Interviewer: Yeah. So they didn’t have enough M-16s and it really wasn’t until much later before I was going to Vietnam that I had to go spend a day with an M-16. Interviewer: Yeah, because the M-14 is a very different weapon, it was kind of an improved version of the old World War 1 M-1. It was an antique compared to the M-16. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, and now what kind of physical shape were you in when you went in? (12:23) Not too bad, I think I weighed about 190 lbs. By the time I got out of Vietnam I was down to about 170 but by the time I was home for about 3 months I was back up to 190 in a hurry. Interviewer: All right. And how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to the army way of doing things? Actually, it was easier then what I thought it was gonna be because our drill sergeants were all from Alabama, and being at Fort Knox in January and February that year they had a ton of snow, and these guys didn’t wanna go out and get their shiny boots and their pressed pants all messed �up, so we got out of doing a lot of stuff other people had to do if they were there in better weather months. Interviewer: All right. And then what about the discipline part, did you figure out what they were doing? Oh yes, I could just see that immediately and I really looked at that as being a good thing because I think a lot of these guys ended up needing some real discipline training. It didn’t bother me, I could handle it, I had to be disciplined anyhow going through college, paying your own way. You had to get up for class, I had to come up with enough money to pay the bills, all that kind of stuff. Interviewer: So if you just did what they told you to do… Right. Interviewer: Okay, you could get through. So how long was basics? It was about 8 weeks. Interviewer: Okay. And now, at that point what happens to you? (14:06) Well, after basic then you get orders as to where you’re gonna go for your next level of training, and of course at that time most of the guys were going on to Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana and I was kind of fortunate because they had done a lot of testing on us before we really started on basic training, and one of the things in one of the tests at the very end of the test, the last item was diagraming a cathode ray tube and I had just gotten my last course at Ferris was a physical science class where we learned all about a cathode ray tube. So I could just draw that thing out and early on in basic training a captain came over one night and asked to see me in the barracks, and of course you’re scared when that happens because you think what happened, did one of your parents die or, you know, are you being accused of something you didn’t do or what’s going on? And he took me over to the day room and he put some money in a pop machine and bought me a coke and had a bunch of papers there and he says, “Yeah,” he said, “I’m in charge of testing and we have never had anybody completely diagram that cathode ray tube that I can remember, but” he says, “You did” and he says, “I got an offer for you you can’t refuse.” he said “I can send you, at this point, for” I don’t know what it was, it was almost 8 months of training at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey which was kind of known as a country club among army bases, “For electronics school, and here you have to sign for another year.” and I had to look at him and say, “No, I’m not signing.” and he says, “Well, they’ll you’ll probably go on with the rest of these guys to Fort Polk, Louisiana.” and that was the end of it. And so I went through the �rest of basic training and shortly at the day we’re all getting our orders, I open up mine and it was for Fort Monmouth, New Jersey for radio school and I didn’t have to sign up for the other year. Interviewer: How about that. And that was nice because it was like going to college. Interviewer: Okay, so what was it like? It was… going to classes and we were being tested every week for what we knew and some of the tests were they had radio stuff in front of us that we had to troubleshoot, it was always kind of funny because some of these guys were putting their tester in and they were just getting a shock and getting blown right off their stool, you know, they were kind of distracting when we were having these tests and you’re trying to troubleshoot and here the guy next to you is got blown off his stool by a shock. But, and if anybody didn’t pass they would have to go take that previous week over again and I don’t know how many times you got to do that before they booted you, but I went through right on schedule but what they told us right up front was half the class was gonna go to Aviano, Italy and the other half was going to the 52nd Signal Corps Battalion in Vietnam. So I knew I was in the Aviano, Italy part of it and the last week one of the guys that was going into the Vietnam part didn’t pass and my name being K was right in the middle and I got transferred into the Vietnam side, so all the time I was going to class there I thought “Man, I’m going to Aviano, Italy, I’m gonna enjoy this army thing.” so it’s a little devastating to get that change at the last minute. Interviewer: All right, now did they treat you differently at Monmouth than they had at Fort Knox? (18:23) Oh, totally. Totally. They just left you alone, come Saturday or Sunday, if you wanted to sleep in the barracks you could sleep in the barracks; if you wanted to go to New York, which was close by, you could go into New York; you could go out surfing, you could check out even a surfboard and go surfing at Longbranch, New Jersey if you wanted to. It was that nice. Interviewer: Okay, and how long is that school? Well, it was from February until August. Interviewer: Okay. So it wasn’t quite as long as the school they were gonna send you to with the extension cause I think they said 8 months? Or do you think it's— �Well, I was saying it’s 8 months, it was maybe 6 months-something. Interviewer: Okay, so you go the same course basically. I got the same course. Interviewer: Now what were they actually preparing you to do? Well, they wanted me to operate in microwave radio, which was kind of a line-of-sight good for maybe 40 or 60 miles depending on the terrain but when I got over to Vietnam they unloaded a whole bunch more on me and it was—we had tropospheric scatter communications and we were relaying stuff between our, you know, for the 9th infantry division and they would send guys out to a little fire base somewhere, they had to have some communications and that’s what we had to wire in so that they could be talking to whoever they needed to talk to for air strikes or ammunition or food or, whatever. Interviewer: All right. So, you have this nice extended period of training and then now you get to the end of it and you find out at the end okay, you’re going to Vietnam. Now what did they do to prepare you to go to Vietnam? (20:16) They sent me out to Fort Dix for a Saturday learning the M-16, which I did well in because I ended up getting my expert badge and I was not a big guy for guns, I didn’t hunt or didn’t collect guns or anything like that. Interviewer: But they weren’t teaching you anything about Vietnam as a place or anything like that? You were constantly hearing about it, why you were doing this and why you were doing that. Interviewer: Okay. All right, so it’s sort of integrated in your training in that sense. But that was just while you were doing the rest of your training? Training, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. All right. Now do they give you a leave home before they ship you to Vietnam? They did. Yup, I went home for a week or two or something like that. Interviewer: Okay. And now what’s the process for getting into Vietnam? �Well, I had to fly to Oakland, California where they loaded you on a plane and it was kind of a three-legged flight to Tokyo or to Yokota Air Base or something like that, and then to Okinawa and then to Vietnam. Interviewer: All right, and where do you land in Vietnam? We landed north of Saigon in Long Binh. What’s the name of the place… Interviewer: Okay, and what’s your first impression of Vietnam when you get there? The smell. It was not like anything I had experienced, so, but… it wasn’t where you were immediately cast into battle. I, you know, had to go through a few things—they even sent me out to a communications base in Vũng Tàu which was right on the South China Sea to become a little bit familiar with the equipment that I was gonna be using and then I got sent to a place called Dong Tam where they were moving the 9th Infantry Division from Bearcat into Dong Tam and so they were still building barracks, they were still clearing land. I went the first three months there without having a shower to stand under, I had to stand under the tin roof when it rained and try to scrub myself, or I had to go down to the Mekong River which was right there which was a dirty, brown river and try to bathe in there but shortly thereafter we, you know, and it could have been almost 3 months before they put a tank up in the air painted black that they would come and fill up with water, and you had this little chain you had to pull when you wanted some water on you. Interviewer: All right. So you landed in Long Binh, how long did you stay at Long Binh? (23:19) Maybe a week at most. Interviewer: Okay. What do you do during that time? Time? You’re just going to different orientations and things like that. Interviewer: Okay, and now are they trying to explain Vietnam to you or? Yeah. Interviewer: All right, anything about that training that stands out for you? �Well, they really didn’t tell me about the basics, you know, the fact that how all these communist countries were trying to expand their territory and why North Vietnam wanted South Vietnam, and they didn’t explain to me what the problem was in South Vietnam which was corruption in the government. That was never explained, figured that out on my own by what I was reading in the news and things like that. Interviewer: Okay. But they didn’t teach you anything about the local culture or customs or dos and don’ts? Not much because you did not get into those kinds of areas. Interviewer: Okay. You were separated from it. You really didn’t want to, cuz you didn’t know who was Vietcong and who… you know, who was a good Vietnamese citizen? Interviewer: And then how did they get you out to Vũng Tàu? (24:36) By helicopter. Interviewer: Okay. Had you been ridden in helicopters before or was that new? That was the first. First of many, had a lot of helicopter rides, that was the workhorse there. Interviewer: Okay, and then what was the facility of Vũng Tàu like? It was on top of a pretty high hill and it was an old French outpost, and the bunkers were still there in the side of the hill as you rode up to the top, you could see where the old cement bunkers were from the French. Interviewer: And was that area fairly quiet while you were there? That was the quietest area you could ever be in. Interviewer: All right. Because it was at the end of a long peninsula so it could be controlled. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you stay there? �I think maybe a month, something like that. Interviewer: And now what equipment were they training you on for that? They had—that was where they had the tropospheric scatter set-up. Interviewer: And explain what that is. That is where they take signals and they bounce them off the ionosphere to get a bigger distance. And there was not a direct cable between Washington D.C. and Vietnam and they were always needing secure communications that could not be interrupted, and that was just a new way to go a very long distance, whereas the microwave was very limited. Interviewer: Okay. And so you’re learning that and then was there—what facilities did you have there, what kind of barracks did you have? It was just the regular barracks that we had built the same way in Dong Tam is what there were already in Vũng Tàu. But Vũng Tàu is the main center for bouncing everything back to the US and what we ended up doing in Dong Tam really was just connecting into their stuff, we did not have as many tropospheric scatter things in Dong Tam. Interviewer: So your job was just reporting kind of from the division back to Vũng Tàu and then Vũng Tàu would send stuff. (27:07) Well we had—we did have some direct circuits going back to Washington. Interviewer: Okay. All right, and then on the base at Vũng Tàu did they have Vietnamese working there, were they all Americans? Don’t really remember Vietnamese there. Interviewer: Okay. All right, now you’re sent down to Dong Tam and describe that area. Well it was along the Mekong River, probably… I would say about 5 miles, that’s my estimation, west of a town called Mỹ Tho which was a fairly significant town. I got through it several times during my stay there, we had a little outpost down in Bến Tre that I had to go down there several times, you know, by Jeep or by truck and we did have a little outpost, too, of communications at Mỹ Tho. It was in an old…I heard it was a seminary building, but where I was in Dong Tam there was nothing there. The Marine River Force came in there and dug a little harbor for all of their boats and then beyond that they cleared a whole area for the 9th Infantry �Division. 9th Infantry Division had a lot of helicopters, too, so it was a base for a lot of helicopters. I would say 100 or 150 of them and they all had them parked between bunker walls so that if mortar rounds came in they were halfway protected, and that was what was the problem at Dong Tam was mortar rounds coming in all the time. I kept a diary while I was there and there were 183 mortar attacks during my time there. Interviewer: And that’s in… In Dong Tam. Interviewer: And how many months were you actually there, were you there a full year? I was there—I was in Vietnam a whole year but probably a good 9 or 10 months in Dong Tam. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, so that’s a pretty regular mortaring then. Yes, that was… you know, and when I say that, we might get a mortar attack and we might get one at night, you know, so that counted as two even though they were on the same day but generally we had to really take cover when we heard the first round come in because the Vietcong were burying tubes to send those, so they didn’t know if they were gonna hit our base or not, they just put them at an angle where they figured it might hit and, but if the first one hit in the base we set off the siren which told them, “Hey, that’s a good tube!” so here would come another but by the time they had the third one on the way we had something else on the way back to them to wipe out their mortar turret. So then they have to start all over. Interviewer: And so, typically in one of these attacks how many rounds would they fire? (30:28) Generally 3. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, so these were not heavy bombardments. No—well, there were some nights where you would have that happen maybe four or five times during the night. Interviewer: Did you ever get hit by rockets or anything bigger? Well these were kind of like rockets, really, I mean when they exploded that shrapnel went just everywhere and we had it come right through the walls of the barracks, I wasn’t there but two weeks and I figured out I wanted to be on the first level of the barracks, that’s where the �sandbags were around, because the guy sleeping in the bunk above me one night, his arm hanging out just above my head and a piece of shrapnel came through right through his hand and wiped out all those bones in his hand. Just. Boom. First round, hit right outside of our barracks and… that told me to move downstairs in a hurry. Interviewer: Okay. Now, lets see, you were part of a signal battalion and you were attached to the 9th Division. Yes. Interviewer: How many men from your battalion were there? I think probably only about 15. Interviewer: Okay. And was that the group that you hung out with? Yeah. Interviewer: Did you associate much with the other army guys of the 9th Division? Nope. Never—we talked to them on the radio but that was about it. Interviewer: But would you, I mean, eat with them or? Yeah we would eat with them but we never got to know them because we were always with our own people, and a lot of times were we didn’t get a lunch break; we’d have our tin tray with our food brought in to us. Interviewer: Okay. And… so what do you remember about the guys who were in your unit, are there any particular ones that stand out for you? (32:21) Well there were three that I went through my training in Fort Monmouth with. Two of them—no, three of them that were with me over there. Interviewer: And did you get along with each other? We did. We did. Got along very well. In fact one of them even after I got home, I was out in California and I stopped in to see him but the other one that we were real close to, I looked him up on the internet and he still lives in Arizona where he was from but I haven’t made any effort to contact him. �Interviewer: Okay. So, did you have a daily routine there? Well, our routine was we were on 12 hours and we were off 12 hours, 7 days a week, so if we were writing letters or doing tape recordings or whatever we had to do it in the 12 hours that we were not on. And we kind of alternated back and forth; we’d work days for a while and I would work nights, that was like from 7 am to 7 at night or you started at 7 at night and worked till 7 in the morning. Interviewer: Okay. And so how much activity do you have on a shift? Were you constantly sending or resending messages? Yeah. There were all kinds of new things that had to be wired in to our communications man and things that—circuits that were not working that we had to troubleshoot, find out what was wrong, that sort of thing. And we had to do enemy activity reports. We had small equipment repairs and sometimes we would even have to take a piece of equipment back to Vũng Tàu because that’s where the repair shop was and get it repaired. Then we got to stay there a day or two while they repaired it and they had the nice beach there where we could hang out, so that wasn’t—we kinda fought for that, to be able to take a piece of equipment back. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you have a sense of, given what you were doing, of sort of how the war was going or at least how the war in your area was going? (34:40) Well, you know, every report we got was that we were just knocking em dead, we were stacking up Vietcong body bags and, you know? But we were losing people, too. But, you know, we had to rely too much on information from the news media back in the states and I know from the enemy activity reports that we sent in that they were not being reported accurately and I can remember one that we typed up during the night, I mean we got hit by I think it was 4 bazooka rounds. Hardly made note of it, you know, but so we sent that in that way that during the night at various times we got hit by four rounds of bazooka but no damage, no casualties. Then my parents send me the clipping back from the newspaper and it says that Dong Tam weathered an all night bazooka barrage, so, you know, the news people were starting on that then already and really started turning the country against the war. Interviewer: Well that’s a piece of a rather bigger puzzle but yeah, after the Tet Offensive coverage… Ramped up. �Interviewer: Ramped up a lot, yeah. And that’s something I heard from a lot of different people who were there, even somebody who was at Dong Tam talking about talking to journalists and stuff and finding out what they were doing, what would the editors wanted and didn’t want and everything else, so that’s all going on but from as far as you could tell it was kind of being successful at what it was trying to do? Well they had kind of not concentrated on that area much, and as a result the Vietcong kind of infiltrated it and then the Navy's riverine force came in there to that river because they were coming down through Cambodia and taking all their supplies into the Vietcong down that river, and I remember flying over it in a helicopter and I mean it’s just, pothole after pothole after pothole where the sides of that river had been bombed. So. Interviewer: All right. Okay, now at Dong Tam do you have Vietnamese working on the base there? We did, yeah. But what they generally were was the wives and kids of Vietnamese who were serving in the army of the Republic of Vietnam, that’s who they trusted to do that and we had absolutely no problem with it. Interviewer: Okay, and what kind of jobs do they do? They, in some cases, washed our clothes, they shined our boots, changed our bedding. Yeah, we had it pretty good, really. Interviewer: Oh so did you…where you were quartered were all 15 of you basically in the same building? (37:57) Yes. Same barracks. Interviewer: And then did you have any of these, you know, women working for you as hooch maids or do you have somebody who washed your clothes or things like that? Yeah it was pretty regular, we had an older woman and her daughter that serviced our area, so. Interviewer: Okay. And… Paid ‘em just about nothing. You know? Interviewer: But in Vietnam it was something. �It was something, yeah. Interviewer: All right. Now, what was it like to go out to some of these smaller bases, what do you remember about that? That was… you know, it was scary. Cause you were out in the open and we had it one time where somebody did take some shots at us from a tree but in the back of the truck were guys with M-16s and next thing you know his body’s falling out of the tree. So. Interviewer: So that’s when you were en route from one place to another? Yeah. Interviewer: And did you have to worry about mines or IEDs? Yup, cause we had several guys that were in our barracks that were not in our unit but they had rode over them and lost arms and whatnot, even got killed some of em. Even got killed. And we had one group, you know, from Mỹ Tho that was trying to bring some equipment, I think it was, over to us and they did it at night and they should have never been out at night, and they got shot right out of their Jeep. Just… they own the night. The Vietcong own the night. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did the pattern of enemy activity change much over the course of the year you were there? No. Interviewer: Okay, so it’s still pretty much the same. (39:45) Yup. Yeah it… it just didn’t seem like there was great progress. Interviewer: Yeah. Were there ever incidents where sappers tried to get into the wire or get into the base? There was one time that was during a Tet Offensive where they wanted—they tried to come over the barrier along our little air strip, and our air strip was all these sections of metal that were pieced together. Interviewer: Right. �And I can still remember a Cobra helicopter come down along that berm that was right along the runway there and as he was shooting down it was like somebody was throwing a bunch of shiny tin can covers up in the air because they were bouncing off that metal work, but that pretty much got stem, they did get to an oil tank and set that off but that was really about the extent of it. Interviewer: Okay, and that was Tet ‘69? Yes. Interviewer: Yeah. Cause normally when we say Tet Offensive we think ‘68 but the fact was that there was one that day. That’s one’s talking about ‘68 was the one… there was one in ‘69 too, but it was much much weaker than the on ein ‘68. Interviewer: Right. So for the most part you could kind of go about your business on the base except for dodging the mortars. Yup. Interviewer: Now, when the mortar attacks came could you go into a bunker? We had a big, heavy duty bunker and there was one instance where… I forget where I was but I wanted to get back to the bunker, I knew rounds were coming in, so I was out in the open with another guy and we were running to get to the bunker and he got to the doorway of the bunker and I was, you know, three or four feet behind him so I was not to the doorway yet and one of the rounds hit our ammunition dump. And when that thing went up that was a concussion explosion I just will never forget, I’ve never experienced anything like that. It curled up the tin, our corrugated tin on our roofs; it blew the screens out of the window and the fella that was ahead of me got pushed into the bunker by the force of the concussion. I got knocked off my feet, I was laying on the ground, but he felt all kinds of stones and stuff hit him in the back, which he thought a mortar round had landed right behind him and blew him in and that his back was full of holes. And I kind of crawled into the bunker and he saw me crawl in and he thought I was gone and I was fine. And we had took about five minutes to convince him he had no holes in his back, but he was good, it was just stones that had hit him, so. Interviewer: Alright. And… did you get—so when you went into other places, what would you, if you went to Ben Het or you went to Mỹ Tho or something like that, what were you doing? (43:07) �Bringing equipment. Exchanges, that sort of thing. A couple times I went with our commanding officer with the payroll, that was probably the most, and a lot of times I wouldn’t mind doing it cuz if I went down to Ben Tre the nice thing about being at Ben Tre was they had flush toilets. Something we didn’t have, that was a treat. Interviewer: Now, did you do anything in the villages or towns outside of the bases or did you kind of just stick to bases? No, just didn’t trust everything. Interviewer: Now was there some kind of village or settlement outside of Dong Tam, did the Vietnamese congregate there at all? No. Nope, it was out kind of in the middle of nowhere. Interviewer: So the people who worked on the base, did they come in from Mỹ Tho? They came in from Mỹ Tho, they had their motor scoots with five, ten people piled on a motor scooter. It was hilarious to see how many people they could fit on a motor scooter. The only thing we did once and awhile was we would have to leave the base to go to the garbage dump, because when these mortar rounds would come in there would be a bunch of tin that was chewed up and screens that got stuff and a bunch of wood with holes in it and it would all get loaded on a truck and we’d take it to the dump, and that was always interesting cause the stuff never made it to the dump. When you were turning down the road to go into the dump the grandmothers were all sitting along the side of the road and they had all these little grandchildren that would come up running for the truck, and they would wanna be on that truck while it was still moving and start sorting through what was on it and throw it off, and then somebody down on the ground would take it and drag it back to grandma and she would guard it. But by the time we got to the actual dump there wasn’t much to unload. Sometimes there wasn’t even anything. Turn around and come home, and I actually saw houses built out of wood that when our mortar rounds came in these wooden boxes and homes were built out of the lumber from those wooden boxes. Interviewer: All right. Now, did you get any R&R time while you were in Vietnam? (45:39) I did. In fact I managed 2 of them, and the way I did that is I took the first one to Singapore because I thought, “Boy, Singapore is some place that’s gonna be very hard to get to later in life.” so I went there and spent a week there and it was wonderful, it just blew me away what a modern city that was, was more modern than anything I had seen in the United States. And then shortly before I was leaving, it was really at the beginning of August, I found out that all the R&R slots we had for our company weren’t being used because some of the guys, you had to �show you had a certain amount of money before you could go, and these guys they couldn’t save any money or they were sending it all home to their wife or whatever, but there was a slot open at the beginning of August. I thought, “I got the money, I’m gonna take it.” so I took an R&R to Australia which was their winter but I was a skater so I got on a plane in Sydney and I flew on to a town called Kuma in the mountains and went skiing at Thredbo, and that was a real treat. Had my nose dripping and it’s cold after having been in Vietnam, so. Interviewer: All right. But I wasn’t sending money home to my parents or a wife or anything like that, so. Interviewer: And you weren’t squandering it in gambling or…? There really wasn’t much chance to do that because you could go to PX, you could buy beer for 10 cents a can, a pack of cigarettes for 20 cents not that I smoked, but I did buy some stereo equipment through the PX in Japan and had it sent to my brother, but that was about all I could spend money on and I was getting hazardous duty pay, I was E-5 and all that, so. Interviewer: Okay. And I guess without a town there, there weren’t as many opportunities for people to squander their money on things they shouldn’t be doing. No. But a lot of guys were, you know, they were buying a bunch of junk out of the PX, junk food. So we did have a PX on our base. Interviewer: Right. You could get a lot of stuff from. Interviewer: Okay. Now, there are a variety of stereotypes about what we on in Vietnam and so, I kind of asked just to see what your take was, but one of them has to do with the use of drugs. Were there people on the base who were using different things? Yeah. Interviewer: What did you observe? (48:21) There were a few. There were a few and marijuana was the thing of choice but I to this day have never touched marijuana, never wanted to because I guess going over there, my whole thing was I wanted to come home. I wanted to make it home and if you’re drunk or you don’t have all your facilities about you and something happens, I want to have my wits about me at all times and I �saw this happen one night, that one guy he had had way too much beer or marijuana or something but we were watching a movie on the side of the building, had painted one of the sides of the building white and we would get movies every so often and they would show a movie. And during the movie, oop, hear a mortar round comes in not too far away and once you knew one was coming in there was gonna be the two more following and they’re going to be right in that same area, and so this one was close and on the way to the bunker which wasn’t that far away he tripped because he didn’t see one of the things that we were sitting on—we had a bunch of big timbers that we were sitting on and he didn’t see it and he tripped right over it and he caught a lot of shrapnel. He survived it but we never saw him again, but he ended up going to Japan for treatment and that just enforces it in your mind that you wanna take a drug like that? And risk not having all your facilities about you when it comes time when you need them? Interviewer: Okay. Another thing that comes up is the question of race and racial tensions, I mean, was your little unit all white or did you have a mix of guys? We had a mix. And I was, you know, the army was really one of the places where I really got thrown in the mix because when I was in School of Commerce there at Ferris there weren’t many people of color or even different ethnicities there, I mean it was just mainly white guys. Interviewer: Yeah. So, but got along beautifully we had no problems no issues and if they were in the signal battalion they knew how to live, they knew how to act, there weren’t those kinds of problems. Interviewer: Right. Okay, and I mean that’s typical of units like that in Vietnam as far as I can tell. (51:08) I don’t know what it was like in an infantry unit. Interviewer: Okay. Now, to think back over the time that you spent in Vietnam are there other particular incidents that kind of stand out in your memory or things that you think of when you think of being there? There were a lot of hazardous, you know, I would say close calls. You don’t get them out of your mind, I mean they stick with you and some things you never found out what happened. For instance, one time I was taking a piece of equipment in to Vũng Tàu to have it repaired and I was in a string of helicopters, there were probably 3 of them and I was in the last one. And the first one, all of a sudden, boom big old cloud of smoke, and then we went around and came back towards where that smoke was coming from and they dropped down to a level that was right at treetop and they old helicopter was just moving up like this, you know, so it couldn’t get shot at. �Where it’s like the helicopter was hanging on the end of a rope and just going all over the place, and one of the pilots said to me, “Unhook your seatbelt and lay on the floor, cause we’re gonna be landing.” and just as we landed I could see a helicopter coming from the other way that put a smokescreen across the opening and then we were right up against some trees and we weren’t on that ground for four or five seconds, and here these two guys come running out of the trees with their helmets on, with their cords hanging in it. They jump in the helicopter and they plug in and they’re talking to the two pilots. In the meantime that helicopters all of a sudden taking off, they didn’t tell me to get back in or fasten my seatbelt, all of a sudden I’m laying on the floor holding on to the supports of the seat keeping from sliding out because they took off on a real slant, and when I got to Vũng Tàu the helicopter never landed. They hovered at about 3 feet off the ground and had me jump off with the piece of equipment. I never found out what happened—did they get shot down? Did something blow up in the airplane or, you know, what happened? I have a feeling they got shot down, but I don’t know. Interviewer: Yeah… all right. So, other incidents that kind of stand out for you? Yeah it was just the damage that was done by that ammo dump blowing up. It was all over the base, it was just tremendous. You know, I never knew where the ammo dump was, I never knew what was in it, nothing like that. Interviewer: Was it just a single explosion? Single explosion. Just absolutely rocked everything. Interviewer: Alright. Now as you got close to the time for your year in Vietnam to end, were you counting down the days or keeping track of it? Oh, everybody had a calendar with it marked down and I had a decision in June that—I don’t know who it was, was it Nixon?---was gonna be removing some people and wanted the Army Republic of Vietnam to take over some of the areas, and our base was one of them and so at the beginning of June they said, “You can go outta here early and go back to—” it was Hawaii to the Schofield Barracks, “and serve out the rest of your year over there, or you can stay til the end of August and get out and go home.” So I thought, “Well, you know, if they’re doing this chances are I can survive it here and then I’m out four months of three months early.” and that really worried me after I made that decision, I was committed, and the Army of the Republic of Vietnam was coming in and they just didn’t have it, you know? I was worried for my safety. Interviewer: So they were now coming on to the base and providing base security and that kind of thing? (55:55) �Right, right. Interviewer: What did you see of them or what impression did they make on you? Well, one thing we noticed is one morning, outside of our barracks, we had a nice drinking fountain—-it’s gone. So. We were worried about our stuff being stolen and one thing that I had there was. when somebody was rotating out of the country they had one of these small refrigerators that they had just come out with and they were the neatest little things, and the guy was getting out at the end of the month when nobody had any money so the price that he was getting for that refrigerator was going down, down, down. Finally I got it for $25 but I had that thing there and I would sell beers in the bunkers, you know, after a mortar attack really calmed down and we would have to wait for the all clear and sometimes we’d have to wait a half an hour even though we knew everything had calmed down. Well I could sneak in and get a couple of beers, I could sell em for a couple bucks a piece in the bunker and so I more than got my money out of it, but I was afraid that thing was gonna be gone. Interviewer: A little bit different question—your radio equipment that you were using, was that in a bunker or a building or a trailer, what was it in? Part of it, most of it, was in a bunker which we had 10 by 10 timbers over top of us with sand bags all the way around it, and then we had another communications trailer that was not bunkered very well with sandbags outside and most of our communications stuff was on a couple scaffold towers, and we had the antennas up there and about halfway up a couple spotters would sit in there all day, too, to spot the rounds that were coming in, so they used it for that. One of the times there, it was kind of funny that somebody went and had a bulldozer, I forget what they were doing, but they backed into one of the guy-wires holding up that scaffolding and it just twisted right down to the ground. There’s two guys in it, they just rode it right to the ground, unfortunately all of our antennas came down with it and it wasn’t that hard to put it back up, which we did and you know started hooking everything back up, and I went for a 36-hour stretch there with not a break, you know, getting everything hooked back up because these guys out in the field were just absolutely dependent on our communications and we got it back up in 36hours and our commanding officer was bringing us our food so we weren’t gonna take time in the mess hall, and we get the thing back up and operating I already said within 36-hours and he gets the brown star. Interviewer: Well… Yeah, I figured out that’s how the army works and, you know. �Interviewer: All right, now your story is featured in a book by a local author, Rick Vuyst, who met different veterans and so forth and talked with, and one of the things he noted in the book was that you took a lot of pictures. Yeah. Interviewer: How did that come about? (59:29) Well I bought one of these little small Instamatic cameras that came up, they were really neat and I could carry it in the pocket and, you know, if it was bad weather or whatever I could even have it in a little plastic bag just to keep it dry. Interviewer: Right. But yeah, I was out snapping pictures all the time, I was having a good time doing that and they were on a little plastic—there were like 20 pictures on a little plastic case, and then you would send them in to have them developed and I would have them sent back to my parents and they’d send them back to me first, and now what I would do is I would look at them and I would give a description as to what was going on on each one of them and then I ended up doing that with about 600 slides, and unfortunately today I don’t know what happened to most of them, I’ve still got about 150 of them. You know, I tell a good story but… I’m just baffled as to where they went. Interviewer: But when you got back from Vietnam did you just put all that stuff away? Yup. Yeah, it all… like I said, it got packaged in a box and…that was it. Interviewer: Okay, so when you’re winding down, getting into the last days, how many days in advance did you know when you were leaving? (1:00:53) You left right on the—the day was already assigned. Interviewer: Okay. Now, I kind of cheated and wanted to get out of that base so I kind of went there to the outprocess, I think, two days ahead of time hoping I could get out 2 days early. They wouldn’t let me. But we left out of that Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon and that was quite a trip when you got a plane loaded of guys and you clear the coastline of Vietnam, there was just cheering and there wasn’t highfives back in those days, same kind of activity. We were all very happy that we were on the way home, we’d cleared the airspace, but then when we got back to Oakland nobody �was ready for us. It was Friday night of Labor Day weekend and everybody had the weekend off, so we’re sitting there: no food, no physicals, no nothing and finally one of the guys—I don’t know if it was on Saturday or whatever—went and called his congressman. And all of a sudden on Sunday, boy, there were a few people starting to show up and we started to get processed out Sunday afternoon, and I got on an airplane—they held the door for me at the San Francisco Airport, if you can imagine, to make a flight to Chicago. So I never even had a chance to call my parents until I got to Chicago. Interviewer: And then did you— And I had to fly out to Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Alright. So, but they did at least outprocess you—I mean it was some kind of discharge process for you on that Sunday? But it was very minimal, you know, I didn’t get a physical, I didn’t get a dental check, all this kind of—I didn’t get my medals, you know? None of that. That was just bare basics, just enough paperwork so that you could get out and get on an airplane. Interviewer: Okay. And now, once you get back home again now what do you do? (1:03:02) Well, the job that I had I could go back to, so my parents had a bunch of people over on Labor Day at their house so all the relatives were there, and then come Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday I had the luck to buy a car because I wanted to start work the following Monday and went right back to my job that following Monday. Just put everything behind me and… all done. Interviewer: That was with the real estate job? No this was when I graduate from Ferris, Keeler Brass Company in Grand Rapids wanted me to work as a production controller cause I’d worked on a lot of different departments there or the time that I was working there part time, you know, going to school. Became production controller for a few months, went to Vietnam, came right back to that job again. Stayed in that job a couple months and then I got transferred to customer service, and then I got moved to High Point, North Carolina as their salesman in High Point, North Carolina because they made furniture and hardware. Interviewer: Okay. So go on to a career from there. Yeah. �Interviewer: Alright. Now, lets see, and somewhere along the line you get married too? Yes. That was after I got back from Vietnam, you know, every girl I’d ever known was married and had a couple kids already, you know, but I did met my wife Mary and she was 8 years younger than I was but we got married and we gotta celebrate 47 years here in another couple months. Interviewer: All right. So how did you wind up back in Michigan? Keeler Brass moved me down. Keeler Brass Company got sold, and after they got sold I wasn’t real happy with the new people that bought the company, and in the meantime one of my big customers for Keeler Brass that I worked with down there was the Lane Furniture Company, and they wanted me to be their rep back in Michigan. So they moved me back to Grand Rapids with my 3 kids. Interviewer: All right. And then has… did the Vietnam experience have any kind of lasting side effects, mental or physical? Well the physical is when I was age 60 I came down with the prostate cancer from the agent orange because that’s how they cleared that whole base where I was, and I didn’t really realize it at the time, all of a sudden I’m in for a physical and my doctor says, “Boy, all of a sudden you PSA number took a good jump. But it’s not danger level, “ he says, “I think something’s wrong.” So they sent me to a urologist, had it checked, says yeah your prostates about 40% cancer and I says, “What do we do about it?” He says “Well, you can do seeds but I won’t guarantee that,” he says, “You could just let it go and die,” he says, “Or, we can do robotic surgery but that’s not always a sure thing either,” he says, “Or, I can just cut you open and do it by hand because, “ he says, “I think I can do the best job that way.” So 8 days later my prostate was gone, but unfortunately after a few years the cancer was back again, so then I went in for 8 weeks of radiation, every day for 8 weeks, and it got through that and looked good for awhile. Couple years later, back again, and that’s what they said about it is, you know, comes on early, you know, at age 60. Comes on very aggressively and it’s very hard to knock it out, so I’m still living with it today, here—what is it. 15 years later? Interviewer: Right. Okay, now does the VA recognize this as… Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. (1:07:26) They did right away. �Interviewer: All right. Right away. I didn’t realize the VA was even in existence until this happened and then everybody kept telling me, “Well you gotta contact the VA.” Interviewer: Okay, and have you had any PTSD type issues? Well I got tested for it right afterward. You know, I was feeling a little depressed after the surgery because, hey they take a very important part of you away, and they tested me and I should have taken in how long the list, but it was a whole bunch of things that I suffered from, but, you know, I never thought they were bad but my wife realized she didn’t like some of them. But, you know, so it helped us meet and figure out why I was doing the things I was doing and when she could understand it and, you know, gave me a little better understanding of why I was doing these things we ended up getting along a lot better. Interviewer: Okay, so, now were these—there’s a lot of different kinds of ways in which the PTSD manifests itself. Sometimes people get angry, they get violent, they just have peculiar behavior patterns. Can you give an example of what yours was like? (1:08:47) Well, you know, the one thing that bugged my wife, you know, we’d go to a motel or hotel or something like that and I was always checking out how many steps it was from the door to the fire escape, you know, and she couldn’t understand that but for me I always had to know the escape routes, I always had to know directions, I was very nutty about directions, maps, which way was north, you know. A lot of crazy things and my ever-vigilance was just driving her nuts because I was always trying to plan what we would do if this happened and then what we would do if that happened and have it all planned out that way. So. Interviewer: And you kind of lived with that all those years and then you kinda figure it out. Years, and then all of a sudden here it was in black and white in front of me: why I was doing what I was doing and she could see why I was doing what I was doing and what it did for our relationship was a lot better as a result. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were there positive things that you took out of your service time? Yeah… it was the discipline part of it. I knew what I had to do, why I had to do it, and that people depended on me when I was in service and in business it was gonna be the same way. �You know, if the company I was working for wasn’t making a profit I wasn’t going to advance, I wasn’t going to advance, I wouldn’t be getting a better job. Interviewer: All right. So, the whole thing makes for a pretty good story, so I’d just like to thank you for coming and sharing it today. No, thank you for the opportunity. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KonyndykR2315V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Konyndyk, Ronald Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-06 Title A name given to the resource Konyndyk, Ronald (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Ronald Konyndyk was born in 1944 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where he lived a comfortable childhood and attended local schools. Konyndyk’s father had been drafted into the Army during the Second World War and later worked as an executive at a furniture company. He graduated high school in 1962 and attended Ferris State University for a degree in business, which he achieved in 1967. A week after he graduated, Konyndyk received a draft notice, and on December 7, 1967, he reported to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for Basic Training. After Basic Training, he was specially selected and transferred to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, for a year of Electronics School during which he learned to operate and repair radio communication systems. He was assigned to an old French outpost in a quiet sector of Vietnam before being transferred to the Signal Battalion of the 9th Infantry Division at a more active forward operating base. When he visited smaller forward operating bases in the field to conduct equipment exchanges, Konyndyk remembered being frequently out in the open and working in fear of being fired upon from the jungle. During the Tet Offensive in 1969, North Vietnamese sappers attempted to breach the barrier alongside his base’s airstrip and were successful in destroying one fuel tank before being apprehended. During enemy mortar attacks, he and his peers retreated to an enormous bunker built on the base. While on the base, Konyndyk noticed several cases of drug use amongst the troops, particularly with marijuana, as well as how the units were well integrated without much racial tension. He also purchased a small personal slide camera which he used everywhere he went in the field, accumulating approximately 600 photos over his tour in Vietnam. When his tour ended, Konyndyk was flown from Tan Son Nhut Air Base near Saigon back to the United States where he began the process of leaving the service, where some soldiers never received a physical or their military medals. At sixty years old, Konyndyk developed prostate cancer from his exposure to Agent Orange during his service in Vietnam. Reflecting upon his service, Konyndyk believed the psychological impact of Vietnam contributed towards his paranoia concerning safety, direction, and planning associated with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. He also believed that the service taught him the positive values of discipline and responsibility. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng