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Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam War
Ron Oakes
Length of interview: 01:52:08:00
Pre-Enlistment (0:00:20:00)
Born in Grand Rapids, MI on March 21, 1949; grew up in Grand Rapids and graduated from
Grandville High School in 1966 (0:00:20:00)
Father worked for Sears and Roebuck for over 30 years (0:00:33:00)
5 kids in the family, 3 girls and 2 boys (0:00:45:00)
After high school, he went to Grand Rapids Junior College for a year and at that time,
Vietnam was going on and all his friends going off to war, either through the draft or
enlisting, he was the last one left (0:00:57:00)
In June, 1967, he went to Detroit for what he thought was a physical and as it turned out, he
raised his right hand and was on a plane going to San Diego for boot camp; thought he was
going home that night and instead he was going West (0:01:12:00)
He enlisted and was not drafted because he felt it was the right thing to do (0:01:35:00)
o He is a volunteer person and when Vietnam was there, he would not wait (0:01:42:00)
o He had a high draft number because of college but college was not working out and he
could not keep his mind on his studies and he enlisted in June (0:01:48:00)
o Rough on his parents because at the time, his father was only 38 or 39 at the time and
when Oakes turned 38 or 39 and his son turned 18, he knew how his father felt at the
time when Oakes took off (0:02:00:00)
When he enlisted, he knew Vietnam was in Indochina and we where fighting the communists
who were trying to take over the country and we where helping a smaller country, much like
South Korea (0:02:23:00)
In the back of his mind he knew it would be dangerous, but being 18, he did not view it as
such (0:02:53:00)
Enlistment / Training (0:03:15:00)
Basic training was in San Diego, California at the Marine Corps recruit depot, where he went
through boot camp and then he went up to Camp Pendleton for the rest of his training
(0:03:15:00)
Went out to California on a commercial airline from Detroit to Chicago and the aircraft was
late getting into Chicago, so they held the next flight waiting for the 12 men going to San
Diego, although the other people on the plane were understanding because they did not get
upset (0:03:38:00)
o In Detroit they gave them airline tickets and picked someone to be in charge and make
sure everyone got on the plane (0:04:03:00)
o Recruit depot had a bus at the airport to pick everyone up and the Marines knew who
was coming and they checked everyone’s name off a list; from that point on, they
belonged to Uncle Sam and they did not go anywhere without a check list
(0:04:15:00)
�
At that point in time, the arrival was different from today; there was a lot of screaming and
hollering, such as “you're in the Marine Corps, you're not at home anymore, and you belong
to me” (0:04:29:00)
In boot camp, they went through a lot of training, such as how to use a rifle and how to
maneuver, and a lot of physical training, as well as classes on how to put on battle dressings
and sanitation and hygiene (0:04:50:00)
The drill instructors were Vietnam veterans that already had a tour or two in Vietnam and
returned and went to DI school and at that time, the drill instructors could be abusive and
harsh depending on what their attitude was (0:05:23:00)
o Oakes grew up saying “yes sir” or “no sir” to anyone older than him, and this made it
so he had no problem with authority while going through boot camp but some of the
people he was training with could not get the grasp of “yes sir” / “no sir” and they paid
the price for it (0:05:50:00)
If someone was overweight, the DIs placed them in a separate platoon to lose weight and they
had one instance when they were training, the fat platoon came by and one straggler collapsed
(0:06:23:00)
o They put him against a tree and being the middle of summer in southern California, it
was hot and he was suffering from heat stroke but they did not call medical attention
for the man and instead went on their 4 mile march and when they returned, he was
dead (0:06:40:00)
o Oakes's unit left and when they came back, all they saw was some people carrying a
body away (0:07:06:00)
In boot camp, they learned hand-to-hand combat using pogo sticks (0:07:16:00)
o Two guys would start and when one was knocked down, another would step in and the
man at the end had the best chance to be number one (0:07:25:00)
o Pogo sticks were long sticks with padded ends used for fighting and training for using
a rifle with a bayonet (0:07:44:00)
The original training was basic because they received more input from the instructors in the
Infantry Training Regiment at Camp Pendleton (0:08:24:00)
o Received their heavier training there, such as rifle qualification (0:08:38:00)
o Had staging battalion where they put the soldiers through a mock-up Vietnam village
which showed them how the bobby-traps were developed and what to look for and
what not to do (0:08:47:00)
o What they normally did, the American way of doing things, they changed, because
they enemy learned to use them against the American soldiers (0:09:12:00)
If there was an opening in the forest, that was where they would go because it
was easiest and the Americans did not want to take a machete and hack a new
path (0:09:24:00)
However, most of the time the opening was bobby-trapped and if you wanted
to get through a tree-line safe, you cut a new path and made sure it was away
from the opening (0:09:30:00)
Boot camp was 8 weeks and about 8 weeks in infantry training and after about 16 weeks, they
were allowed to go home on leave (0:09:54:00)
o Went home on leave in October and at that time, they went home in their Class-A
uniforms because the anti-Vietnam sentiment was not strong yet in 1967 (0:10:03:00)
o Being the first time he had ever been away from home, he was glad to get back and he
went around and visited family, slept in and ate a lot of good food (0:10:44:00)
�
The food in the mess hall was not bad and they could eat all they wanted and
while in boot camp, Oakes had to serve the officers and the DIs their meals
which caused him to miss out on the really dirty jobs in the mess hall
(0:10:59:00)
o Already knew where he was going because his orders already told him that he was
returning to Camp Pendleton to a staging battalion (0:11:38:00)
In boot camp he trained on the M1 and qualified on the M14 and in the staging
battalion, they trained on the M16 (0:11:46:00)
o On his last Saturday at home before returning, a buddy from junior college asked
Oakes if he would go on a blind date; Oakes agreed and went on the date, a canoe trip
in the Pine River with a woman named Cathy and they got along well, he took her
home that night and the next morning, at 7 o’clock, he was on a plane for Chicago
then on the Camp Pendleton (0:12:02:00)
Normally the staging battalion lasted 2 or 3 weeks but they had only been there for a week
before a list of people came out (0:13:02:00)
o Every morning they would fall out for formation and roll call and one morning, they
said that the following Marines step out and stand aside (0:13:13:00)
o Oakes was one of the six or eight chosen; they dismissed everyone else and told them
to get on the trucks for training and they then told the small group to get their gear
because they were returning to the main part of Camp Pendleton (0:13:24:00)
o Told that their named had been pulled and they were going to language school to train
to be interpreters, which got them out of training (0:13:39:00)
Went back and spent two, almost three weeks waiting for the Marines to get enough people in
because they need 150 men with the right test scores and when they had enough, they bused
the men up to Monterey, California (0:13:54:00)
o On the way to Monterey, some motorcyclists saw that it was military people and they
began gesturing and messing with the bus drivers but they eventually made a mistake
and getting in front of the lead bus, they slowed down too much and the bus driver
floored it and the last thing Oakes remembers was seeing the 3 motorcycles going into
the sand and the riders going flying, to which all the men on the buses cheered
(0:14:37:00)
Was not really great on language (0:15:39:00)
o At that point in time, they had cassette records with 8 inch tapes that they would listen
to and their instructors were 18 year old Vietnamese girls who trained in the
traditional clothing and who could speak enough English and naturally, very fluent in
Vietnamese (0:15:41:00)
o They went through the 12 weeks, had a good time in school, and everyone graduated
because at that point in the war, everyone passed (0:16:06:00)
o They were told by the Marines that the more they used the language in country with
the dialect, the better they would get and the Marines were right (0:16:18:00)
o While they were at the school, they were adopted by a Chinese family in Salinas,
California, who had four of the soldiers over for Thanksgiving (0:16:31:00)
A lot of families in the area were adopting military people for the holidays and
one weekend, the family took the 4 soldiers to San Francisco, where they went
to a very fancy restaurant and the soldiers played the roles of “guards”, with
two in the front in their Class-A uniforms and two in the back, also in their
Class-As (0:16:56:00)
o Language school lasted until early 1968 (0:17:45:00)
�Deployment (0:17:51:00)
Flew from Travis Air Force Base, north of San Francisco, to Okinawa, where they were for
four of 5 days getting shots (0:17:51:00)
o The only gear they were carrying was their clothes and the gear they would normally
be issued; they were not issued any combat gear or rifles (0:18:08:00)
o The time in Okinawa was getting their paperwork and shots done and because they
had to work on typewriters, the process took a long time and whereas nowadays, a
person will normally receive their orders with only their name on it, then, they might
put 200 names on an order because they would only type it once and then make copies
for everyone else and they always carried multiple copies of their orders because they
did not know when they would need to show someone their orders (0:18:17:00)
One day, the Marines took the men out to a Continental airlines jet, which was contracted at
the time, and flew them on a short flight to Da Nang and when they landed in Da Nang, as
soon as they opened the door there was a stairway down and they hurried the men off the
plane because Da Nang airfield was always getting hit with mortars or rockets (0:18:55:00)
When they were off the plane, they were taken to transit barracks, two story, wooden barracks
which were not air conditioned and only had screen windows, where they spent a day or so
there while the commanders decided where they would go as replacements; Okinawa was just
processing and the Marines did not know where they would send him until he was actually on
the ground (0:20:47:00)
Every morning, they had a formation in the rear-area to make a head count and keep track of
people (0:21:17:00)
o One morning in formation, they began calling names off, Oakes was one, and they told
them to get their gear and be in formation at another spot in 30 minutes (0:21:26:00)
They got on a truck and started heading south on Highway 1 (0:21:41:00)
o Around 20 minutes passed and they arrived at their new position at Camp Dong Song
Two, a Vietnamese village that was replaced by the Marine camp along Highway 1,
just south of a bridge south of Da Nang (0:21:45:00)
o The compound was the rear-area for the 27th Marine Regiment, as well as the 1st
Battalion of the regiment, with Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, and Delta companies
(0:22:02:00)
Once the soldiers were off the truck, the commanders divided them up amongst the companies
and some of the guys were the same guys Oakes had gone to language school with
(0:22:15:00)
The base was rudimentary (0:22:40:00)
o Some of the buildings were a 2x4 frame with canvas sides and others were a frame
with screen windows and wooden flaps that would come down at night and all had
corrugated roofs (0:22:48:00)
These were the offices, mess hall, barber shop, and med center (0:22:58:00)
o Living quarters were GP medium tents and they had bunkers, wire, and claymores on
the perimeter and 50 meters behind that was the living area (0:23:05:00)
o There was also a berm which made it harder for the enemy to shoot at the tents
(0:23:24:00)
o If they incoming fire, they had bunkers that they could jump in, most of which were
made out of sandbags and some had corrugated metal or railroad ties (0:23:34:00)
Assigned to 3rd Platoon, Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 27th Marines (0:23:54:00)
�
Was there as a regular rifleman that knew Vietnamese, but at that point, they were short of
radio operators (0:24:03:00)
The 27th Marines had just gotten to Vietnam themselves just a couple of weeks before and
they were short handed, which was why a lot of replacements were going to them
(0:24:16:00)
o They were on a float out of Hawaii and the President diverted them to Da Nang and
they were understrength, so they were building back up because they did not have the
critical MOS jobs: the radio operators, squad leaders, or machine gunners and as
replacements are coming in, they were filling in the positions to get up to full strength
(0:24:23:00)
o They never got to full strength; they were always around half (0:24:44:00)
The morning after he arrived, the platoon Lieutenant came out with the platoon sergeant and
asked who did not know how to operate a radio and four guys, including Oakes, raised their
hands, which was a mistake that Oakes learned, because they were now radio operators, even
through Oakes had never even seen a military radio before (0:24:54:00)
o They put them through on the job training; telling him to report to a corporal and he
would show them how to use a radio and they had a little class that showed them the
radio, how it worked, how to operate it, what to do and what a radio report was, all for
about an hour (0:25:20:00)
The next day, they were out on patrol and Oakes had eight or nine other guys out there and he
was the only one with communication and the others were in trouble because he did not how
to operate the radio (0:25:37:00)
o However, it only took him a couple of days to learn how to use the radio because his
and the other guys' lives depended on it and every chance he got, any question he had,
he asked somebody about how to use the radio properly (0:25:55:00)
Was a squad radio operator for two or three weeks and they would have two patrols a day, one
in the morning and one at night (0:26:03:00)
They were in what was termed “the rocket belt”, the area where the Viet Cong and the NVA
would shoot 120 mm rockets at Da Nang (0:26:23:00)
o All they needed was a mound of dirt to lay the rockets on a shoot it; they did not aim
it, they just pointed it at the airfield and hoped that it hit something and it was mostly
HI (Harassment and Interdiction) fire to keep the people awake (0:26:32:00)
The Marines’ job was the patrol and at night, they would go out just before dark and set-up a
position with a perimeter and would rotate as guys ate their C-rations (0:26:46:00)
o After dark, they would move from the position because the enemy saw they dig in and
the Marines had to keep it in the back of their mind that they were always being
watched, especially around Da Nang because of its civilian population (0:27:02:00)
o They would move around 100 meters and set up an ambush site because if the enemy
knew where the Marines were in the day, then they would be coming at night and the
Marines would set up on a likely trail down which they would come so instead of the
enemy ambushing the Marines, the Marines would ambush the enemy (0:27:24:00)
o Some nights they did not set up ambushes and they would just have a two to three
hour patrol in the dark (0:27:39:00)
They always had check points to report back to the company commanders and
the radio operator had a map, knew right where everyone was going and in his
log, he would report where everyone was and then everyone knew where the
patrol was (0:27:47:00)
�
o Did it day and night mainly to keep their presence in the area and to keep the enemy
off guard (0:28:02:00)
o At night, they would go down set paths but they never went down the same route two
nights in a row (0:28:10:00)
o On a map, it was divided into 1000 meter quadrants and they tried to have a patrol in
every quadrant, every day, so they could be on one side of the base patrolling at night
and be on the opposite side the next day (0:28:23:00)
o Occasionally, they would have movement and the point man would alert everyone
else, who promptly “hit the ground” (0:28:41:00)
o During the first couple of weeks, he does not recall much in the way of contact; other
units had contact but Oakes’ patrols did not and it was not unusually to have
something going on every night (0:28:52:00)
Was with the squad for a couple of weeks and was then promoted to platoon operator because
their original platoon radio operator had tipped a bobby-trap and was medevaced out and
Oakes was the next in line (0:29:20:00)
o When they had a platoon operation, then he would go wherever the platoon leader
went, whether it was to inspect a patrol base or the lines and he stayed with his
original platoon leader until the Lieutenant tripped a booby trap (0:29:37:00)
o Oakes became the platoon radio operator at the end of March (0:30:11:00)
In the first part of April, they moved up to Hue to take over some territory formerly held by
the 3rd Marines and they were still doing a lot of clean up from the battle of Hue during the
Tet Offensive (0:30:21:00)
o There were still a lot of North Vietnamese in the area and they did not care about
getting into firefights with Marines (0:30:34:00)
o Over the years, they had built a lot of heavy bunkers and a lot of fortifications in the
villages and the fortifications could not be seen from the air because the vegetation
quickly overgrew it (0:30:46:00)
They were in Da Nang for a couple of weeks and the first week of April, they were moved by
truck convoy to the Huế area, to a position south of Huế by about 6000 meters (0:30:58:00)
o They were still along Highway 1 and Oakes’ platoon was assigned the job of guarding
a bridge and part of the oil line that went from Phu Bai to Hue and their main patrol
base was across Highway 1 about 500 meters (0:31:16:00)
The base was built on one big mound of dirt, almost 100 meters tall, from
which they could see a long way and everyone knew that they were there
(0:31:36:00)
While they were at Huế, they did a lot of “no-name” operations when a couple of companies
in line would push the enemy towards another company, essentially catching them in a net
(0:32:04:00)
During one of the operations in the 2nd week of April, around the 13th, Oakes’ platoon was
detached to stay behind and protect the company area and the other two platoons went with
Bravo and Charlie companies to sweep through a Vietnamese village (0:32:30:00)
o The units swept through the village and got ambushed and Oakes was on radio watch
at the bridge and he could hear the ambush over the circuit (0:32:52:00)
o They had 26 killed and 46 wounded on that operation alone (0:33:24:00)
o Was in more combat in his seven months with the 27th Marine Regiment than in the
rest of his tour with the 4th Marines (0:33:29:00)
�o They could hear the fighting on the radio, as wells as screaming and hollering and they
could vaguely hear gunfire because, although the ambush was a ways away, it was
flat, so the sound echoed (0:33:41:00)
o Reinforcements eventually arrived and they managed to pull the Marines back during
the night but Oakes’ company was totally decimated (0:34:20:00)
They left 3 or 4 bodies on the battlefield because they could not get to them at
night and the next morning, they went to retrieve the bodies, which had been
stripped, mutilated, and had their equipment taken by the Viet Cong
(0:34:30:00)
o In the days following the battle, they took a third of Oakes’ platoon and put it into the
other companies and pulled the rest of Oakes’ company out of the area and into a safer
area to regroup (0:34:49:00)
They transferred people in from other companies to beef up Oakes’ company
because they were half the strength that they should have been before the battle
and after, they were even worse (0:35:02:00)
o That was the worst time because being in the hooch and hearing the battle and not
being able to help their friends was hard (0:35:17:00)
Close Calls (0:35:36:00)
There were few times when he got into dangerous situations while with the 27th Marines, such
as having his radio antenna shot off twice (0:35:36:00)
o One instance, they were on a patrol, it was raining and they started taking sniper fire
and there were only eight men in the patrol (0:35:50:00)
They hit the ground behind some logs and when Oakes went to use the radio,
he could not; the Viet Cong had a captured radio on the same frequency and
they kept flicking the microphone and when Oakes heard that, he knew that
they had been compromised (0:35:59:00)
He went to go to the secondary frequency and he heard the same thing; the
NVA were effectively jamming the radio signals (0:36:15:00)
The 8 men were in a circle, in the rain, taking sniper fire and they sat there for
two hours and because the NVA did not know the Marines’ true strength was,
they did not rush them (0:36:21:00)
After about 2 hours, the sniper fire stopped and they retraced their steps and
got out of the position (0:36:34:00)
o That was the first time that Oakes was a little leery of how long he was going to be in
Vietnam (0:36:42:00)
o Another time, he stepped on a booby-trap 105 round that did not go off and Oakes was
very fortunate because it would have taken out four of the Marines (0:36:50:00)
They were on a patrol in the 327 area because the Marines had moved them
back to a desert / sandy area near the coast and they were keeping fifteen to
twenty feet apart (0:36:58:00)
Oakes was always behind the Lieutenant, either to his right or his left,
so that he could get the radio to the Lieutenant as quickly as possible of
they got attacked (0:37:18:00)
They were walking and the Lieutenant must have just missed stepping on the
bobby-trap (0:37:35:00)
They never walked on the paths because that was where the Viet Cong placed
the punji sticks and trip wires (0:37:43:00)
�
Oakes was on one side and the Lieutenant was on the other and Oakes’ side
was where the hole was and Oakes stepped on the trap, a C-Ration sleeve, a
105 round, and a board with a nail in it, and if he pushed down in the cone, the
round would have exploded (0:37:54:00)
He stepped on the edge and pushed the round away and as he felt himself
going into the hole, he instinctively fell to his left because he had the radio on
his back and as soon as he fell, he crawled away as fast as he could in case the
trap had a delayed fuse (0:38:25:00)
Oakes made a noise and Lieutenant, seeing what was happening, dived as well
and soon everyone else on the patrol was diving for the ground (0:38:52:00)
The Lieutenant and Oakes crawl back to the hole and seeing what was in the
hole, move away because they feared a Viet Cong would be waiting nearby
with a detonator but as it turned out, nobody was around (0:39:07:00)
Oakes took a couple of pictures of the trap with a camera that he carried and an
engineer with the patrol had some C4 with him and he put C4 around the cone
(0:39:32:00)
Nearby was a trench that a bulldozer had dug because whenever they had
finished a firefight, a small bulldozer was helicoptered in to dig a trench for the
Viet Cong bodies (0:39:56:00)
There was nothing in the trench and after setting up a perimeter with soldiers
look in every direction, they yelled fire in the hole to alert everyone to what
would be happening (0:40:15:00)
While they were in the trench, someone suggested that it would be
funny if the Viet Cong had rigged the trench to explode when the
booby-trap did (0:40:34:00)
Everyone got out of the trench and after lying flat on the ground, the
Lieutenant had the engineer explode the booby trap and luckily, the trench did
not explode as well (0:40:56:00)
o Booby-trapping the hole would have been something that the Viet Cong did because
they knew the patterns of the American soldiers (0:41:06:00)
Americans always took the easiest way and this got a lot of people killed in
Vietnam because either they were not think or they were thinking Stateside, i.e.
the easy way (0:41:27:00)
o Had a B-40 rocket impact a wall near him (0:41:50:00)
During Operation Allenbrook, they had a unit in the middle of the rice paddies
with a perimeter and some amtraks and the unit got hit during the night and
Oakes unit was about 500 meters away in a hamlet (0:41:57:00)
A Viet Cong fired a B-40 at an amtrak and the rocket went over the top of the
Am-Trac (0:42:19:00)
Oakes’ unit was watching fighting because the commanders feared that the
Americans in the rice paddy would mistake them for the enemy and shoot at
them and they watched as the rocket came towards them and impacted on a
wall behind them (0:42:23:00)
o Within twenty-four hours after the rocket incident, after the battle in the rice paddy,
Oakes’ unit received intelligence from a village that about fifty NVA were moving
south and since they had not been in a battle, it was their job to sweep the battlefield
and move south and attempt to capture the fifty NVA (0:42:42:00)
�
About Ninety minutes after they started, they were two klicks south and they
had contact with an aerial observer who tells that he sees the NVA moving in
the open and he says that he is calling in some fixed wing aircraft (0:43:05:00)
They were watching at the edge of rice paddy dike and Oakes is listening to the
observer, who gives him the coordinates of the NVA, which Oakes showed to
his Lieutenant, who told him that those are the unit’s coordinates (0:43:26:00)
The unit turned and watched as a pair of A-4 Skyhawks came around and
towards them and the Lieutenant yelled for everyone to get down and the first
A-4’s bombs impact in the woodlands beyond the dike and the men can hear
the shrapnel sailing over their heads (0:43:51:00)
As the second A-4 came around, Oakes was yelling into the radio and
everyone else was popping their smoke grenades (0:44:25:00)
The pilot must have got the word because he did not drop the bombs and he
began wiggling his wings (0:44:46:00)
The flyboys would protect the infantry and the infantry would do
anything to protect them (0:45:25:00)
On Go Noi Island, his platoon was in a company perimeter for the night during another “noname operation” an at about 1 o’clock in the morning, he got a radio call from one of the
squads saying that they saw campfires to the north (0:46:02:00)
o The Lieutenant and Oakes went out the perimeter and got into a foxhole with one of
the soldiers and sure enough, about 1000 meters out, they could see the campfires and
it was obviously not Americans (0:46:31:00)
o Right off the bat, the Marines know it is a ruse because the NVA knew where the
Marines were and they would not build campfires; the NVA were just trying to get
someone’s attention to see what was going on (0:46:43:00)
o First, the Marines alerted the other units at the south end of the perimeter to keep their
eyes open because there was something going on and it might have been heading their
way (0:46:56:00)
o Meanwhile, the Marines called in “Puff the Magic Dragon”, who saturated the
campfires and if anyone was building the campfires, they did not survive (0:47:05:00)
“Puff” could put down one round every square foot and could cover the area of
a football field in four seconds (0:47:12:00)
At that point, “Puff the Magic Dragon” was a C-47 converted with Miniguns in
it that would fly at a bank and in such a way that all the firepower was
concentrated in one position (0:47:21:00)
They could see a red line from “Puff” to the ground, this was from tracers, but
in between every tracer were four other bullets and from a distance, all they
heard was a “whirring” noise (0:47:41:00)
o “Puff” fired for about 10 minutes and there was no chance that anyone was alive down
by the campfires, if there was anyone to begin with (0:48:01:00)
o Believes that the NVA knew what the Marines would do, so they lit the fires and got
the “heck out of Dodge” and they knew that the Marines would retaliate with artillery,
aircraft, or something (0:48:10:00)
o The whole perimeter was then on alert and nobody was sleeping and around three
o’clock, they received a call from the squad on the south end; they had movement in
from of them (0:48:25:00)
They figured that something would happen somewhere and here came the
movement (0:48:39:00)
�
o The squad on the perimeter kept watching as the movement got closer and they started
seeing crawling bodies in the moonlight and at three o’clock, someone blew a whistle
or a horn and the enemy all stood up and charged (0:48:48:00)
o The Marine M60 gunners were ready for them and all the Vietnamese had homemade
grenades wrapped around their waists, so as soon as the first Vietnamese stood up, the
machine gunner hit him in the belly and exploded the grenade and started a chain
reaction and they later learned that the first Vietnamese was blown in half
(0:49:02:00)
o As Vietnamese were attacking, Oakes was sitting in a bomb crater holding two radios
because the other radio operator went with the Lieutenant to the line and leaves were
falling around him from the bullets flying over him (0:49:45:00)
Had one radio in each hand talking to both the company and the battalion to let
them know what was going on and he was trying to be as calm as he can while
ducking into his flak jacket (0:50:03:00)
Looking back, it was slightly comical how he was able to be so calm in the
middle of the fight (0:50:24:00)
o While the fighting was happening, the battalion was preparing a reaction force to
come at first light, 5:00-5:30 in the morning and the firefight continued for the rest of
the night (0:50:50:00)
o The NVA never got into the perimeter and apart from a few scratches on some guys,
Oakes’ platoon came out of the fight okay and the next day, they counted 24 dead
NVA (0:51:05:00)
o The tragic part about the fight was near the tail-end of the fight, they called in their
own 81 mm mortars and the first round dropped inside the Marine’s perimeter
(0:51:25:00)
The unit’s corpsmen had been moving around the whole night and when they
returned to their position, the mortar round struck the tree above them and
blew both their heads off (0:51:37:00)
Oakes knew them and he collected their bodies (0:52:04:00)
Does not think that they ever got use to what they saw; they buried it, which is why there are a
lot of soldiers are with problems, and they did not have time to think about it, only time to
react (0:52:28:00)
Go Noi Island / Operation Allenbrook (0:52:52:00)
During Go Noi Island, they were at another base / patrol area with a perimeter, it was raining
heavily and 81 mm mortars were shooting illumination rounds out because there was
movement outside the perimeter (0:52:52:00)
o Oakes was on radio watch with the platoon sergeant and they had dug a small hole for
2 people that had begun filling up with water and all of the sudden, a mortar misfired
and the round went straight through the poncho covering the hole and landed between
Oakes and the sergeant and although it threw mud into the ears of the sergeant,
causing him to be medivaced out, it did not detonate (0:53:07:00)
o When the round landed, both men said a few quick words and they got out of the hole,
leaving everything behind, even the radios (0:54:01:00)
Go Noi Island was south of Da Nang during Operation Allenbrook (0:54:24:00)
o All companies from all battalions in the 27th Marine Regiment eventually rotated in
and out of the island (0:54:34:00)
�
o Was an NVA staging area for attacks on Da Nang, with the 36th and 38th NVA
Regiments there, hardcore regulars not apt to run away like the Viet Cong; they would
stand and fight, which cost the Marines a lot of battles (0:54:38:00)
o The NVA would wait until the Marines were right on top of them and then ambush
them (0:54:57:00)
They knew that the Marines could not call in air strikes and were reluctant to
call in supporting fire and they would envelop the Marines and come around
the sides (0:55:03:00)
During Operation Allenbrook, the company radio operator was wounded and Oakes was
chosen to replace him (0:55:19:00)
o The next day, the man that Oakes chose to be his replacement in the platoon went out
on a platoon patrol and they were not gone more that 30 minutes before they heard an
explosion; the replacement had tripped a booby-trap (0:55:32:00)
The trap exploded behind him and the radio absorbed most of the shrapnel, but
the back of soldier’s legs and arms were torn up and the trap also took out the
platoon Lieutenant and the corpsman (0:56:04:00)
Operation Allenbrook was an effort to eradicate the NVA from Go Noi Island, what
intelligence called a “second Tet” (0:56:53:00)
o The Marines rotated units in and out if the area, with the 3rd Marines going first,
followed by the 27th Marine Regiment, who at one point, had all the battalions in the
regiment in the area because the fighting was so heavy (0:57:26:00)
o There was fighting almost every day (0:57:47:00)
o The “island” name was kind of bogus; it was in the rice paddies south of Da Nang and
a river went around one side and canals went around the other (0:58:01:00)
o There was easy access to the island and NVA troops had been on the island for a while
because during the Marines’ search and destroy mission, they found hospitals, R&R
centers, barracks, mess halls, caches of rice and weapons (0:58:32:00)
o Eventually, the Marines finally sent in engineers with bulldozers to flatten the island
because all the villages on the island were fortified with a fort underneath and the huts
on top (0:58:54:00)
“No name” operations were hammer and sickle operations when two companies would sweep
in different parts of the island that intelligence said had a large force of movement of NVA or
Viet Cong in an area (1:00:36:00)
o They would move a company in behind the NVA, either with helicopter or marching
at night and the other two companies would march and sweep (1:00:55:00)
o On Go Noi Island, just about every sweep was successful; they had contact on all of
them and everyday on Go Noi Island they heard gunfire; somebody on the island was
fighting somebody (1:01:11:00)
o Has pictures of his unit in a tree line watching as F-4 Phantoms dropped napalm in
assistance of another unit (1:01:22:00)
They did not know who the other unit was because they were on their own
radio frequencies (1:01:33:00)
o The only frequency he had was with battalion and he could hear the other companies
calling in and asking for assistance (1:01:35:00)
He could also hear the platoons talking to the company and the squads talking
to the platoon (1:01:47:00)
They had good coordination although occasionally, in the heat of battle, there would be
misidentification of units (1:02:21:00)
�
o More than once, friendly fire would take someone out, whether it be an aircraft, as
what almost happened to Oakes at the rice paddy, or 81 mm mortars (1:02:34:00)
o More than once, they heard “cease-fire, friendly fire; your firing on friendly troops”; it
did not happen all the time but it was not unusually to hear about it (1:02:44:00)
o When they put in a call for support, the response from the air depended on who was on
station; most of the time it was not hard to get because it seemed like the air was full
of aircraft (1:03:21:00)
The only problem was that artillery could not fire if aircraft were in the area
(1:03:32:00)
o Any operation they had, they were covered by artillery (1:03:44:00)
They could be within 20 miles and still cover the Marines (1:03:48:00)
They were attacking a tree line one time in Huế and they were taking fire from
a pagoda and they called in artillery, which was the first time Oakes had seen
their artillery firing (1:03:54:00)
The artillery was firing air burst rounds and some of the rounds were
detonating behind the Marines, instead of in front of them (1:04:08:00)
Any time they had artillery firing over them, the Marines got flat on the ground
(1:04:16:00)
Artillery had several different rounds (1:04:23:00)
Air burst rounds looked like fireworks with a puff and the shrapnel was
away (1:04:25:00)
Rounds that detonated 3 feet off the ground and acted like daisy cutters
(1:04:31:00)
Hard rounds that just dug a hole in the ground and exploded
(1:04:38:00)
They were never denied fire, although sometimes, it was really quick and
sometimes it took a bit because the artillery might have been supporting
another mission and they were never told that the artillery was out of ammo
(1:04:51:00)
At Da Nang and Go Noi Island, the camaraderie was always there (1:05:17:00)
o Did not matter if it was Marines or Navy flying the aircraft, there was always
something up there, whether it be jets or helicopters (1:05:19:00)
o If helicopters were making supply runs and the Marines called in for medivacs, the
supply helicopters came in (1:05:37:00)
o One time during Allenbrook, they called in for a medevac and the helicopter that came
in had the highest ranking Marine Corps general in the theater on it (1:05:58:00)
o If there was a medevac, everything stops and they got the wounded soldiers out
(1:06:21:00)
Believes this was why the casualty rate was a lot lower than World War II,
because they did have good medevac capabilities (1:06:24:00)
When he was on a hospital ship, he would see medevacs come in every hour
with Every kind of helicopter, from the old Korean era to Hueys to Chinooks
to C-46s (1:06:31:00)
o Depended on whether the medevac call was routine, priority or emergency
(1:07:03:00)
Routine was when they got a chance, stop; such as the platoon sergeant with
the mud in his ears who was not critical and in danger of death (1:07:08:00)
�
Priority was when the soldier was not in danger of dying then but their was a
possibility i.e. getting shot in the leg (1:07:22:00)
Emergency was when the soldier was in dire straits i.e. sucking chest wound
and if they did not get the soldier out immediately, he was gone (1:07:37:00)
o The fact that the helicopters were always there gave the Marines a sense of safety and
it took the edge off of being alone cause they knew that they always had someone to
help them (1:07:58:00)
o When he first got to the squad, he was in a foxhole one night and the platoon sergeant
came up and Oakes asked when they would be getting more people in the foxholes
(1:08:10:00)
The sergeant said to just remember that for every 1 Marine, there were 16
others in the supply chain to supply them with everything that they needed and
Oakes said that all he needed was about 3 of them in the foxhole with him
(1:08:27:00)
4th Marine Regiment / Khe Sanh (1:09:01:00)
On September 12, 1968 the 1st Battalion of the 27th Marine Regiment folded their flag and
went home as part of President Johnson’s de-escalation (1:09:01:00)
o Everybody that still had a long time to go on their tour in Vietnam transferred to the 1st
Marine Division at Quảng Trị (1:09:13:00)
o Everyone on their second tour and the short timers went home with the 1st Battalion
but only twenty men from the battalion went home with the flag (1:09:25:00)
However, as they stopped in Hawaii and Okinawa, the Marines added more
people to the battalion so that when the battalion was on parade in San Diego,
hardly anyone was originally from 27th Marine Regiment (1:09:42:00)
o On the 12th, they flew to Quảng Trị, specifically Dong Ha Air Force base and they
were trucked into Quảng Trị (1:10:01:00)
Quảng Trị was the rear-area for the 4th Marine Regiment and Oakes was
assigned to Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, where he
stayed for the remainder of his tour (1:10:14:00)
In Da Nang, it was a lot of rice paddies, villages, and interactions with villagers; in Quảng Trị,
it was the North and any villages in the jungle had been evacuated and the area was a free-fire
zone (1:10:34:00)
o If they saw somebody, no matter who they were, the soldiers shot them and all the
villagers knew that the areas were free-fire (1:10:49:00)
After they landed, they spent the first couple of days getting acclimated and being assigned to
units and Oakes had to take a convoy up to his unit at LZ Stud, Vandergrift Combat Base, on
Highway 9 and he happened to get into a truck carrying artillery rounds (1:11:18:00)
o LZ Stud was the jump-off point for the relief mission to Khe Sanh to break the siege
(1:11:54:00)
o The trip to LZ Stud was through the mountains and on dirt roads and every so often,
they would see a squad protecting a bulldozer that was repairing a hole in the road
(1:12:08:00)
When they got to LZ Stud at twilight, the unit Oakes was assigned to was a mile further down
Highway 9, right where Highway 9 made a direct turn to the west and at the turn was a
platoon base camp with wire surrounding it and a heavy communications bunker (1:12:46:00)
�
o Right away, Oakes was assigned to the radio section because radio operators were
high priority targets and they were short and he ended up working with the platoon
radio operator (1:13:45:00)
o They never got hit in the camp because there were no NVA units in the area
(1:14:06:00)
o The second night Oakes was in the camp, he was on radio watch and a Marine came
into the bunker with a loaded weapon, intending to kill everyone in the bunker
(1:14:16:00)
Oakes was in his bunk while the Marine raved about how he was not going to
do it any more, that he was not going back out and that they could not make
him (1:14:35:00)
Oakes fell off his bunk and crawled out the door with the man next to him and
they went around and got the platoon sergeant who was checking the perimeter
and brought the sergeant to the door behind the crazy Marine to jump him
(1:14:49:00)
They eventually disarmed the man and sent him to the rear and when Oakes
went to the rear in February, the man was still there (1:15:06:00)
How the man survived Oakes does not know because there was more than one
fragging incident with men who put other men in jeopardy in the field
(1:15:38:00)
The platoon eventually got pulled back to LZ Stud with the rest of the company and a few
days later, they were out on a combat mission south of Khe Sanh, doing a search operation
looking for ammo dumps, mass graves, or current troop locations (1:15:52:00)
o Did tours like this for the rest of his time in Vietnam (1:16:31:00)
o The first time the Marines hit they did not have any contact (1:16:42:00)
o They were helicoptered into a cleared hilltop and after setting a perimeter and
receiving more troops, they would single file through the jungle on a certain path
(1:16:53:00)
o One day, the 60 mm mortars were lobbing rounds down the hill in case someone was
forming and they hit at an enemy ammo dump; they sent a patrol after the explosions
ended and they found a hut with 60 mm mortar rounds lined up on shelves and they
had hit it (1:17:0:00)
Eventually, they were pulled off those operations and back to LZ Stud for a couple of days
(1:18:14:00)
o There were three fire bases in the area: (1:18:24:00)
o LZ Russell, which they closed (1:18:26:00)
o LZ Gurkha, which was as far north and west as they could go in South Vietnam
(1:18:28:00)
From LZ Gurkha, they could look to the west at night and see the NVA troops
moving down the Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos, however, they could not attack
them, even though they were supplies and troops going south to the enemy
(1:18:39:00)
This did not sit well with the Marines and one time, they decided to run an
ambush to the west, so in the early morning, they went out past the claymores
and as it was, to a knoll that they though was hay but turned out to be elephant
grass (1:19:01:00)
When the Marines were walking through the grass, they could not be
more than 10 feet apart or they would lose contact (1:19:32:00)
�
Going along a trail in the grass, one of the other Marines alerted,
“beware of hole”, a three foot diameter hole that they could not see the
bottom of and that they surmised was an undetonated bomb dropped
from a B-52 (1:19:45:00)
Someone suggested that they drop a grenade down the hole in case it
was an enemy hole but when Oakes suggested that he could not out run
the explosion if it was a 2000 lb bomb, the man changed his mind
(1:20:11:00)
They always tried to make levity of the dangerous times just to break the ice (1:20:30:00)
While he was with the 4th Marines doing the searching, resupply was hard and they were
going days without getting resupplied and they eventually ran out of water and halizone
tablets (1:20:44:00)
o If they came across a fast running mountain stream, they could drink it because it was
pure; Oakes came across a stream that he thought was moving fast enough to be pure
and he filled his canteen and a few weeks later, he had dysentery (1:20:59:00)
o After doing their searches, they put the Marines into a firebase rotation; they would be
at one base for a while then move to another (1:21:37:00)
o They were in the later part of October / beginning of November and Oakes remembers
having “bloody shits”; he could not eat or drink anything because it would go straight
through him and he lost a lot of weight (1:21:57:00)
o Oakes knew something was wrong and the only thing that the corpsman could suggest
was taking his malaria pills along with his salt pills (1:22:21:00)
o Went for a month to 6 weeks and it ended before Thanksgiving (1:22:32:00)
Mid-November, Oakes received orders to report to the rear because he has been chosen to be
the mail orderly and Oakes was glad because the job got him out of the bush and the rain
(1:22:49:00)
o He went to the rear and while waiting for the supply helicopter, he told the men that he
will get them their mail (1:23:02:00)
o After spending the night in a tent, Oakes reported to sick call because he was still not
feeling well and when he walked in, there were twelve people already there, so he got
in line (1:23:15:00)
After being examined, the corpsman handed Oakes a form, told him to sit on a
bench and told Oakes that he had dysentery and that he was going to a hospital
ship (1:23:28:00)
o Oakes did not know the Americans even had hospital ships (1:23:48:00)
The ships would rotate with one up near Hue taking casualties for three days
and then returning to Da Nang for fuel while the other took its place
(1:23:58:00)
o The next helicopter that came in, they put Oakes and a couple of other men on it and it
took them out to the U.S.S. Repose, where they checked Oakes in, took his clothes,
made him take a bath, gave him a hospital gown to wear and made him go to sleep
(1:24:13:00)
o For the first 3 days, he was fed in bed and he did not get out of bed, but eventually, he
became ambulatory so that he could help feed the other guys in the ward (1:24:51:00)
o Spent 4 weeks on the hospital ship, including Thanksgiving, and he saw an Australian
USO show (1:25:11:00)
o While he was on the hospital ship, his platoon was pulled out of the bush and was put
on the U.S.S. New Jersey with 3 days liberty and they were on the New Jersey waving
�
at Oakes on the Repose and he was waving back, although he did not know it was
them at the time (1:25:24:00)
Was on the hospital ship for thirty days, was left out in Da Nang and eventually returned to
Quảng Trị where the regimental rear-area was, but before going back to his unit, the regiment
was in the middle of an operation and they were grabbing everyone that could fire a weapon
and putting them into an ad hoc group (1:26:09:00)
o They were going to circle a village that they had reports of deserters in a village with
Viet Cong and NVA and in the middle of a rainstorm during the night, they got off
their trucks some led the soldiers around the village, which had a perimeter at least a
mile long (1:26:44:00)
o When daylight came, they had tanks plus the soldiers, who had dug holes when they
first arrived and improved them during the daylight and they stayed for three days
(1:27:21:00)
o It was neat watching the tanks fire, which had Starlight scopes on the tank, meaning
that they could fire at night and one night, Oakes, who had gotten to know the tankers,
was called over to a tank and they showed him the Starlight screen (1:27:41:00)
On the screen, Oakes could see a log about a mile out from which behind
enemy heads would pop up and telling Oakes to continue watching the screen,
the tankers maneuvered the turret and fired, destroying the log (1:28:04:00)
When the operation was over, the Marines were sent back to the rear and Oakes rejoined his
unit, where he served as platoon operator again (1:28:45:00)
o Rejoined his unit on Firebase Gurkha, where they went on the patrol in Laos and from
Firebase Gurkha, they returned to LZ Stud for rest, recuperation, and resupply then
went to LZ Neville, which, while at the north end of the Khe Sanh valley, was further
east and just south of the DMZ by maybe three or four klicks (1:28:59:00)
o Spent the rest of his time at LZ Neville, his last 3 weeks in the field in March
(1:29:26:00)
o Whereas LZ Gurkha was on a grass knoll and on the slope to the east was a trail that
went down to water, LZ Neville was on a mountain that was all rock that came up like
a shoe where one side was really steep and the other was sloped (1:29:44:00)
They built a command bunker when they got there, although it was only empty
ammo boxes, steel rails, ponchos and rope and whenever a resupply helicopter
came in, the bunker blew over because the firebase itself was so small
(1:30:21:00)
If they did not come in right, the pallet of C-Rations would go down the
cliffside (1:30:55:00)
o At night, they would drop grenades to deter anyone from crawling up the side of the
cliff (1:31:16:00)
o They thought that they had activity one night, but they never got hit and only after
Oakes left did the LZ end up getting hit (1:31:42:00)
o On the sloped part, they put out listening posts out at night, much like every night he
was in Vietnam and one night, they heard noises and threw some hand grenades
(1:31:47:00)
The next night, about a dozen rock apes came up and started throwing rocks at
the men in the post, who could not fire back, lest they give up their position
(1:32:15:00)
o They did a run a patrol into a ravine and up a hill, and halfway up, the point man
signaled; they had run into an NVA bunker complex (1:32:45:00)
�
The complex was older and no one was there but they had walked passed and
did not notice it, thus indicating how well they were concealed; they reported
the complex, turned around, and returned to base (1:33:11:00)
Around March 1st, he got pulled off of LZ Neville because he was a short-timer with thirty
days left and the Marines took him out of combat and placed him in the rear and he spent his
last thirty days as the NCO in charge of transit (1:33:31:00)
o Every other night he had perimeter guard duty and during the day, if someone new
came in, a replacement, Oakes took them to supply to get their weapon, flak jacket and
everything to get them ready to go and when they time came, he took them down to
operations so that the replacement could get on the next resupply helicopter
(1:33:44:00)
o One night when Oakes was not on guard they got hit by 82 mm mortars (1:34:35:00)
Oakes heard the first round thump and explode and he then stuck his head out
the bunker flap and the next round landed in front of an Army bunker in front
of Oakes’ bunker (1:34:51:00)
Oakes went looking for some new soldiers at the other end of his bunker and
he could not find them and he eventually finds them huddled in another bunker
shaking (1:36:04:00)
o Another time, when Oakes was on guard duty, they kept hearing movement in front of
them, so one night they reported it and the next night, they had an Army “Duster”, a
tracked vehicle with four 40 mm cannons, clear all the trees off of the bank
(1:36:38:00)
o Another night, they heard more noise and Oakes told the M79 soldier to fire a couple
of rounds onto the bank, as well as their machine gunner and when they do, someone
on the radio demanded to know what the firing was (1:37:29:00)
Oakes told him that they heard noise, fired and he asked what the man was
going to do about it (1:37:49:00)
Oakes was short, so he did not care (1:37:54:00)
o As a parting joke, on his last night on perimeter, he took out an eight man patrol with
him on point and they just went around the perimeter and returned in thirty minutes
(1:38:02:00)
The Marines flew him and a couple of others down by C-130 to Da Nang and in Da Nang,
Oakes met up with some of the men he had come in with (1:38:22:00)
o They figured out what happened to the other guys they came over with and they spent
2 days in Da Nang waiting for transport out (1:38:42:00)
o Went back through Okinawa for more shots and from there, some of the men went to
El Toro Naval Air Station in Los Angeles (1:38:57:00)
o Because Oakes was a short-timer, if he had gone home on thirty days leave and come
back, he would have only had two weeks left; instead, if someone had less than two
months less, they just discharged him (1:39:09:00)
Once Oakes got on the radio, he used his language training once; the rest of the time was used
learning how to use the radio and how to call in reports, air strikes, and artillery strikes and
they did have an interpreter with them and they used him most of the time (1:39:36:00)
He had a lot of contact with the civilian population in Da Nang but when they were in the Khe
Sanh area, they did not see any civilians (1:40:05:00)
o In Da Nang, the relations depended in the area; on Go Noi Island, they could sense the
hostility (1:40:17:00)
�
o In Hue, it was totally different; when they were guarding the bridge, Oakes went to
check on the guards and when one took a break, Oakes took his place (1:40:25:00)
Oakes heard screaming and hollering coming from the village and a lady
walked up on the roadway and came running towards the bridge carrying a
baby, that was blue and ice cold (1:40:46:00)
The baby was dead, it had fallen into a bomb crater filled with water and
drowned, and this was Oakes’ first encounter with death and although he felt
bad, there was nothing he could do except explain in his broken Vietnamese
that there was nothing he could do (1:41:12:00)
o There were times when they would sweep through a village and everyone would be
waving and when they turned around, the Marines would trip all the bobby-traps
(1:42:00:00)
o They never went through a village where they did not find booby traps (1:42:23:00)
o When they surrounded the village looking for the deserters, the children would come
out the perimeter looking for candy, although looking back, Oakes realizes that they
were just scoping out the location of the soldiers (1:42:35:00)
Whenever they had an operation with the Vietnamese Army, they never found anything, and
if the ARVNs suddenly disappeared, the Marines knew that they were going to be in combat
(1:43:12:00)
o Oakes met some good officers in the ARVN but for the most part, their commanders
were bad (1:43:41:00)
o Worked with ARVN mostly around Da Nang and Hue (1:44:03:00)
At the time that Oakes was in Vietnam, the morale of the units was high, partly because they
were isolated from news about back in the United States, with no newspaper and radio and
they had to rely on people coming in, although they did occasionally receive Stars and Stripes
and there they read about the riots (1:44:31:00)
o For the most part, the morale of the troops in the field was good, apart from
complaining about the lack of food or water, the muddy conditions (1:45:03:00)
o As far as fighting in the war, there was very little, if any, anti-war sentiments
(1:45:14:00)
He got more worn down with the 4th Marines because it was always wet and subdued and they
were always walking and climbing (1:45:32:00)
o In Da Nang, it was not as intense, although they were under fire all the time and in the
DMZ, they were fighting mother nature more and picking up the remnants of the battle
of Khe Sanh (1:45:53:00)
Going Home (1:46:35:00)
Landed at El Toro Naval Air Station and got discharged out of there and he went with 5 other
guys that he went with through Chicago, where they split (1:46:35:00)
o The bus driver recommended that they take off their uniforms and travel in civilian
clothes because of the strong anti-military sentiment (1:46:52:00)
Got home and his whole family was waiting with a big sign on the house (1:47:16:00)
o He was in Vietnam and in combat one day and a couple of days later, he was at home,
so there was not a lot of transition time; the family could be sitting talking about less
important things and he could still be think about Vietnam and the patrol and the
firefight from the night before (1:47:24:00)
o Was lucky because he came home to a stable family (1:47:53:00)
�
o His father was a deacon with the Baptist church and being in the Marines had changed
Oakes’ vocabulary, so he had to watch himself and he was very cautious about what
he said (1:47:58:00)
Getting back to normal took a while (1:48:26:00)
o During a church softball game, a friend who had only been back from Vietnam a few
weeks was on first base and Oakes was on third and a car backfired in the parking lot;
instinctively, both men hit the ground while everyone else laughed (1:48:30:00)
Got back to dating girls (1:49:03:00)
o One time, he asked one girl out whom he had dated before leaving, but her father,
meeting him at the door, said that he did not trust Oakes anymore because they had
heard the stories about returning soldiers and how they treated girls (1:49:05:00)
While he was in Vietnam, he would have to write to someone about everything that was
happening and he would write to the girl he went on the blind date with before leaving for
deployment (1:49:37:00)
o Never wrote anything to his parents because they would worry (1:49:43:00)
o Eventually met up with her when he got home and they dated off and on and
eventually, they were at his parent’s house with another couple and they were going
for pizza when Oakes asked if she wanted to get married (1:50:05:00)
o She thought he meant go for pizza and he said “no”, and she said, “yeah okay” and
they got married eighteen months after he returned from Vietnam and they have three
children and five grandchildren (1:50:41:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OakesR
Title
A name given to the resource
Oakes, Ronald (Interview outline and video, 1 of 2), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Oakes, Ronald
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Oakes was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in March 1949. After briefly attending junior college, he enlisted in June 1967 and received training at the Marine Corps Recruit Depot and Camp Pendleton, California. He then received instruction in the Vietnamese language before being sent to Vietnam. Once he arrived, he was trained as a radio operator and assigned to a squad in the 27th Marine Regiment in the Da Nang area, soon becoming his platoon's radio operator, and saw extensive combat experience. When the 27th was rotated home, he was reassigned to 4th Marines at Quang Tri, and operated between Quang Tri and Hue before being sent inland toward Khe Sanh. While in this area, he contracted dysentery and was sent to a hospital ship where he spent a month aboard a hospital ship before being returned to his unit. When his tour was over, re was sent home and discharged in 1969.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-15
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8b4ee45089ee0fd932ce8039f7c4eda.pdf
d3622a115befe57327166e75abb82d90
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Gregg Larabel
Interview Length: (1:23:32)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We're talking today with Greg Larabel of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project. Okay Gregg begin with some background on yourself and to begin with where and
when were you born?
I was born in Grand Rapids, St. Mary’s November 2nd, 1944.
Interviewer: Okay now did you grow up in Grand Rapids or did you move around?
Yes, I grew up, went to St. Francis Grade School, Catholic Central High School and- and then
into the Air Force.
(1:04)
Interviewer: Okay and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
My- my dad was the yardmaster of C&O Railroad and my mom worked various part-time jobs,
but she was mostly a stay-at-home, raising six kids.
Interviewer: Okay and had your dad been in the service or was he a little older or?
Yeah, he was in World War II, Army Air Corps. Never went overseas but was stationed in
Pennsylvania, Indiantown Gap and it was a war- prisoner of war camp.
Interviewer: Okay and did he ever talk about any of the experiences there?
No but he did write a journal and he's got, I have a journal of his that he wrote for one year when
he went in and while he was at Indiantown Gap so it was pretty interesting.
Interviewer: Okay alright so basically when you, after you graduated high school you
joined the Air Force?
�Yes sir.
(2:06)
Interviewer: Okay and what led to that decision?
Well my dad was a- a amateur radio operator and fixed radios and TVs for everybody in the
neighborhood and everybody in his circle of friends and I always was interested in- in electronics
so I thought I would go into the Air Force and- and learn electronics, and fortunately… you
never know what you're gonna do when you go in the Air Force but I scored high in- in
electronic aptitude and I was put into autopilot systems.
Interviewer: Okay so when do you actually join the Air Force?
October of, October 10th, 1962.
Interviewer: Okay and once you sign up now what happens to you?
Then I go to Detroit and take my physical and from there we go to Lackland Air Force Base.
(3:06)
Interviewer: Okay now was the physical a fairly serious one or a fairly cursory one?
No, seemed cursory there was a lot of guys that rejected for flat feet, asthma, and so on, but it
was kind of a routine. I was in pretty good shape from running cross-country.
Interviewer: Okay because it- it was probably a different atmosphere in 1962 than it would
have been in ‘66 or ‘68 with Vietnam going on.
Right.
Interviewer: At this point people who were there probably most of them wanted to be
there.
Right, that's correct it was pretty much volunteer.
�Interviewer: Yeah alright so where is Lackland?
Lackland is in San Antonio, Texas.
Interviewer: Okay and how did they get you down there?
We went by train, let's see what did we go by? Train and went, yeah, all the way.
(4:02)
Interviewer: And what do you remember about that train?
My- my first train ride.
Interviewer: Okay.
My dad worked for the C&O Railroad for years and years and I had never been on a train other
than on an engine looking at it, but I’d never been on a train ride and…
Interviewer: Okay.
So, it was my first experience.
Interviewer: Okay how long did it take to get down there?
A couple days at least, I don't remember a whole lot about it, but it took a couple days.
Interviewer: Okay so you get down to Lackland and then what happens once you arrive?
Then they start yelling at you and you go through the routines and you go through getting your
uniforms and getting yelled at again and then going doing a lot of paperwork and a lot of yelling
and finally you get to your- your dormitories and meet your technical drill sergeants and start
going through the procedures.
Interviewer: Okay so what did Air Force basic training consist of when you were there?
(5:06)
It was, I- I look back at it, it was pretty easy. It was eight weeks we had our obstacle course
which I can remember going through the obstacle course and going ahead of my flight and into
�the next flight and when I got through I kind of got my butt chewed for going too fast. I had ran
cross-country in high school and so it was pretty easy jumping over obstacles and going into the
water and I just enjoyed doing it but yeah I was doing it too enthusiastically.
Interviewer: Alright and how much emphasis do they put on discipline and following
orders?
(6:00)
Well that's where they- they break you down, they, you want to become a team member as
opposed to an individual and so it's a daily routine of shining your shoes, shining the floor,
making sure your bed is, can bounce a dime off of it. All of these insignificant things are all part
of a discipline team building and putting you into a- a group of men that are all doing the same
thing for now and that's I think that's what one of the most important things about basic training.
Interviewer: Okay now did you understand that at the time or figure that out later?
Not really you- you wonder, you know I looked back now and I- I understand why and just like
going to college it's a discipline and that's the- that's the key the discipline.
(7:06)
Interviewer: So, for us it's just do the reading, well in your case it’s make the bed, right.
Okay how long did basic training last?
It was eight-week course and it was a lot of in-class study, learning about the flag, learning about
the history of the Air Force, learning how to salute, how to march, it's… going through the gas
chamber, and shooting the M16 and that time we shot the M1 rifle.
Interviewer: Okay.
The M16 hadn't come out yet.
�Interviewer: Yeah, I mean the standard rifle for the army actually in ‘62 was gonna be still
the M14 which is improve… but you had the original World War II vintage M1s?
Right to start with, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now what was the gas chamber for?
(8:02)
I- I really don't know it again that's probably the discipline cause you would go in there, they
would turn the- the gas on and you would just stand there, it was tear gas and they would wait for
you to beg to get out of there and everybody would be crying and yelling and screaming, and
finally when they- they know when you've had enough and you'd run out of there and you'd be
eyes would be dry, crying, and…
Interviewer: Okay because sometimes when people talk about this in other branches of
service, I mean there's a gas mask they get to put on at some point.
Right.
Interviewer: Did you have that or?
We- we did at the very last minute they get the gas masks put on, but it was still traumatic you
know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
But it was part of that discipline.
Interviewer: Okay now had you already selected what your training was your- your
specific training was going to be, or did they determine that once you were there?
(9:08)
They determined that's one of the classes that you go through and interviews and so on. I- I had
to assume that I was going into electronics because I scored real high in that and so I, at the end
�of basic training they tell you where you're gonna be going and mine was Amarillo, Texas for
automatic pilot school.
Interviewer: Okay and how long would you stay at Amarillo?
I went through Amarillo it was basically a- a twenty-eight-week course.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I got halfway through it and there was a- a glitch in the paperwork somewhere so I ended up
in another class and I finished that up, so I was there probably thirty-two weeks and finally got
through it.
(10:13)
Interviewer: Okay what did the training there consist of?
Again it was, the dormitories, the routine, keeping your dorm clean, spit-shining your shoes,
inspection of your uniforms, but then during class time you would go to school in the morning
and they would teach you elect- basic electronics and then they would go into your primary
automatic pilots and, but it was sort of like basic training with the regimentation going to the KP
in the- in the cafeteria and then we had more free time in base- in technical school on the
weekends as opposed to basic training.
(11:11)
Interviewer: Okay so what were the living conditions like there?
World War II dorms a lot of the- the wall board was unpainted but the- the dorms were spotless
because we kept them that way and no air conditioning but it was you know down in Amarillo,
Texas it- it gets kind of hot and it gets cold and hot and so we had our blankets and so on, but it
was- it was fairly good compared to what I hear of the Army.
�Interviewer: That would depend on where you were with- with the Army but that's you
know did you at least have stoves or heaters of some kind in the barracks?
(12:00)
Yeah it- it had furnaces.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: And were you beyond the level of using coal, or were you?
Oh yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah it was- it was heated but it was cold.
Interviewer: Yeah and probably not very well insulated or anything else.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Okay and so what were you actually learning to do? They're training you
something with auto pilots?
Yeah you're first learned electronics and then you learned all about airplanes, the wings and the
fuselage, and so on, and then the- the autopilot system the pilot flips a switch and it'll fly by itself
until it gets to a- an airport and then it'll, pilot lands it but it pretty much took care of the airplane
in flight.
Interviewer: So you're learning basically how it works and how to maintain it?
(13:02)
Yeah, changing servos that would put the ailerons and the elevators
in certain positions and at that time we were still using tubes if I can remember it correctly and
solid state had come at a- another time but we learned G limits- monitors that the aircraft would
�fly in a particular attitude and if it went, took too many G's it would flip off the autopilot system
and- and things like that that we would learn.
Interviewer: Okay now did you have, did you work with actual aircraft or just with the
parts?
(13:56)
In the, in Amarillo we just learned the parts and the mach- the equipment we didn't go into the
actual aircraft until we went to our next base.
Interviewer: Okay now at least un- until the last few weeks were you pretty much with the
same group the whole way through?
Yeah you were with a- a class and- and then you were assigned to a dormitory and a squadron, a
flight and we stayed pretty much as a team.
Interviewer: Okay now when you went off the base what did you do?
Down in- down in Amarillo I had a- a chance to go out with my lieutenant, executive officer we
went out to some of the ranches and we would explore Indian Ruins and it was pretty interesting
and I'd never done that before out in the deserts and out in the pastures out there on the ranches,
we'd look for a circle of rocks, an old circle and it would, you’d sift through there and you'd
contain arrowheads, it was pretty interesting.
(15:23)
Interviewer: Okay now was it normal for officers and enlisted to hang out together off
base?
No, no that was forbidden.
Interviewer: Okay.
�I think this relationship there was pretty much professional and it's something that was done, I- I
don't know how we ended up starting it but we both had the interest in arc- archaeology and so
on and so that started that.
(16:00)
Interviewer: Alright now if you think back over the time in Amarillo are there any
particular events or experiences or broader impressions that kind of stay with you?
No, other than I remember the- the, our drill sergeants would say, “you're welcome to go AWOL
in Amarillo if you want, because we could see walking in Amarillo for four days and you'd still
be seen because it's so flat,” and that was a- a big joke that you could go AWOL in…
Interviewer: Okay was there much to do in the town? Was there much of a town there?
Well at the time there was some parks and we went out on, in some, there were some rivers that
we'd go to and just have a little fun at, but it was mostly everything on base.
(17:00)
Interviewer: Did they have bars?
I don't recall because I wasn't old enough.
Interviewer: Okay.
And they do on all- all of our bases we have Airman's Clubs…
Interviewer: Right.
NCO Clubs, and Officers’ Clubs.
Interviewer: Okay so the drinking age there was 21 at that point or?
Yeah, yeah and I wasn't much of a drinker to start with.
Interviewer: Yeah, you’re a good boy from West Michigan.
Yeah.
�Interviewer: So of course not.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah okay alright so you're there… okay so that's like close to eight months I
guess, alright and then where do you go once you finish that course?
Well I got my orders and all of us as a- a team members we don't necessarily travel to the next
base, we all go out as individuals and I think there was probably four of us that went to Luke Air
Force Base in Phoenix, Arizona.
Interviewer: Alright.
And that's where we learned our auto pilot skills.
(18:02)
Interviewer: Okay, working with actual aircraft now?
Actual aircraft, we started with the F-100, that was called the lead sled and they used that
extensively in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright now describe that aircraft a little bit.
It was a one of the first what they call a Century Series aircraft, F-100 and had a big nose to for
the intake on the- on the jets and as far as my job I, we would lift up the hood on the- on the
aircraft and our equipment was right inside. And then some of them had two-seater aircraft and
some were single. We would go in, have to lift the canopy up and go in and set in the- in the
canopy or in the cockpit there and play with our instruments with the- the ones that we were in
charge of and that was interesting setting on an ejection seat with the power on and that was
another thing that we learned
about in school, there's a separate class in that so you always want to be careful as to what levers
you're pulling.
�(19:30)
Interviewer: Alright now did you ever get a chance to go up in an F-100?
No I didn’t, no I the- the closest I got that we would run ‘em and the we wouldn't run ‘em but the
crew chief would run it and then we would test our- our system by running the ailerons and the
elevators and the rudders and making sure everything worked correctly, properly.
Interviewer: Alright and how long did you stay at that base?
I was there for about a year and one of the things I remember about Luke Air Force Base is
you're at, near the Mojave Desert and you'd get these sandstorms coming through. You're out on
the- out on the runway and there you can see from the distance sandstorms, so you jump in the
cockpit and you close the cockpit canopy and- and there you set until the sandstorm runs over. Itit's quite a- it was quite an experience.
(20:45)
Interviewer: Okay now how was life on this base different from life while you were
training?
That, completely different, you still had dormitory inspections probably a couple times a month,
and you had roommates, and you had a, we were in a two-man room. We were free to go around
the dorm- around the base, we had first couple months, we had to get permission to go off base
and that was kind of a liberty thing but on base you had the libraries, you had the cafeterias, the
bowling alleys, the Airman's Club, and there's plenty to do on an Air Force Base.
(21:42)
Interviewer: Okay and what kind of aircraft were you working with?
That was the F-100 only on- on the at Luke.
�Interviewer: Okay and was there a particular squadron or a wing that was based there that
you were with or were you…?
Yeah, I wanted… the Air Force is kind of different from the Army and the Marines, we were in
a, I was in an A&E squadron, armament and electronics they call it. I don't recall 314th seems to
be the… but we were just members of that squadron and we worked on the aircraft but when we
left the base, when we rotated to another base we rotated again as individuals. We- the squadron
didn't move from one to another.
(22:37)
Interviewer: So, the squadron was essentially part of sort of the staff of the base.
Part of a base, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah so you're just in- in that ball game there.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Alright now so what year is this then that you’re…?
This would be in 1963.
Interviewer: Okay so at this point it's still pre-Vietnam although actually air assets are
already.
Yes.
Interviewer: Getting over there.
I had volunteered for Vietnam that- that year and I was single so I put in a volunteer statement
and nothing ever happened and- and then the only thing that happened to me was I got engaged
and from Luke Air Force Base I was- I was reassigned to the 33rd Tech Fighter Wing in Fort
Walton Beach, Florida, Eglin Air Force Base. During that time between Luke Air Force Base
and going to Eglin Air Force Base I got married.
�(23:41)
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I withdrew my Vietnam request.
Interviewer: Alright okay now at that point for a while there- there was a rule that- that
said that the married personnel didn't get sent overseas.
Right.
Interviewer: Or then- then later it was if you had children you didn't get sent overseas and
eventually all of those went away but I think some of that depended on when you started,
so you were early enough that…
I was early.
Interviewer: That those rules may just apply to you automatically.
Right.
Interviewer: And then be in place afterward.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and so when- when did you go to Eglin then?
In April of ’65.
Interviewer: Okay.
We had just started a new wing that, it was an old wing brought up from World War II but 33rd
Tac Fighter Wing was the F-4c Phantom jet and that was the newest thing introduced to the Air
Force, it was brought over from the Navy. The Navy had had the F-4s and we adapted them for
the Air Force and that became, that replaced the F-100 in Vietnam and became the- the go-to
aircraft.
(25:02)
�Interviewer: Okay and so for people who don't know a lot about that kind of thing what
separates the F-4 from the F-100?
All, the F-4 was all integrated systems, transistors, and diodes, and all you- you take a box out of
the aircraft and you put in another box. Whereas in the F-100 we would take the box out of the
aircraft, go back to the shop, fix it, put it back in the aircraft. These were all, the F-4 was all
modular everything was state-of-the-art.
Interviewer: Okay and then in terms just what the aircraft could do what's the difference?
The aircraft was much faster, more maneuverable, the F-100 like they called it the Lead Sled it
had- it had some good bombing capabilities but the F-100 was able to carry more of a payload
and was much faster than new F-4.
(26:15)
Interviewer: The F-4 was- was much faster.
F-4 yeah.
Interviewer: Okay alright and as far as you were concerned as a mechanic did working on
the F-4 make the job easier? Harder? Or was there new challenges?
It was- it was much easier again it was a brand new- brand new wing and so ever, we were, we
even had to build our- our shops and everything was right from scratch. We were issued tools,
new tools and the maintenance, it was we probably worked for three or four days a week because
it was a brand new, we didn't even have all of our airplanes in. So, we were that new building up
the- the wing but working on the aircraft itself was, we learned, had to learn all about it. We went
to school because it was a brand new- brand new thing to us.
(27:29)
Interviewer: Alright and then so you had gotten engaged. So, when did you get married?
�Got married just before getting to Eglin Air Force Base.
Interviewer: Okay now at that point could you and your wife live off-base or out of
what…?
What we did is we lived, had our honeymoon right there at Eglin Air Force Base and then she
went back home.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I stayed there and- and learned the job. We didn't plan on living together until I got out of
the Air Force in a- a year from then.
Interviewer: Okay.
And at- in ‘66 when I got, before I got out, I had a choice of going with the- the wing to Oslo,
Norway for a fire power demonstration or getting out and I decided to get out of the service.
(28:31)
Interviewer: Okay.
And from that point, from Oslo then the wing went to, not the wing but the squad went to
Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I would have gone to Vietnam had I not gotten out of the Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay so at this point the Air Force for you that was just kind of one stage in
your life and now you were moving on.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay and so you go back to Grand Rapids so what year is that now that ‘66?
That was in ’66.
�Interviewer: Okay and once you got back to Grand Rapids what did you do?
I had the GI Bill so I was able to, I went down to Grand Rapids Junior College and then I went
over to Kendall School of Design for a semester and during all that time I was raising our first
child and going to work for Lear Siegler.
Interviewer: Okay.
(29:28)
And we're working seven days a week, 10 hours a day doing almost the same job for Lear that I
was doing in the Air Force but with Lear I was testing the equipment as opposed to actually
using it.
Interviewer: Okay and so how long does that last?
About a year, let's see I got a little over a year and March of ‘68 I got itchy feet and I wanted to
go back into the Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so, I had to get into the Air Force before my second child was born because they had the
restriction you couldn't go in with more than two children or more than one child. So I went in in
March of ‘68 I went back into the Air Force.
Interviewer: Alright now that the climate in the country has changed quite a bit in- in that
time but then you get into early ‘68 you know the Tet Offensive is- is started, and anti-war
movement is ramping up, and you have a lot of stuff kind of going on. You also have a lot
of people who are trying to avoid the draft or at least stay out of the Army or the Marines
by trying to join the Air Force or- or the Navy. Now do you have a special status because
you were, you had prior service and training?
�(30:53)
No other than I was prior service so I was able to- to keep my rank of I- I believe I was E-3
Airman First Class and so I went back in but I couldn't get into autopilot systems, and I could get
into electronics and I went into what they call inertial navigation systems, Doppler radar.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so, I had to go back to school at Keesler Air Force Base in Mississippi.
Interviewer: Now when you went down there did your wife stay in Grand Rapids or did
she come down?
She traveled with me there.
Interviewer: Okay.
And we gotta, had a trailer to start with and I can remember moving into the trailer, into this park
and we were right on a bayou and we had talked about the storms coming through, the
hurricanes, and so on. And I asked the landlord, “when was the last hurricane or the highest
water?” And he pointed up on a tree the water level and it was above all the trailers there. He
said, “that's been a while,” and so we were there like I said on the bayou and we, my daughter
walked out to the dock I can remember and there was a water snake that went right in front of her
and my wife saw that and by the next day she had packed up and went back to Michigan.
(32:36)
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I was there for a while for two or three months on my own and till I finally got a house and
we brought her back down.
Interviewer: Alright now how long were you at Keesler?
Keesler was from March of ‘68 till about to about ’70. It was, I got orders for Korea.
�Interviewer: Okay and the mean time so but was all that schooling or were you now
working on the base?
I- I was going to school for about six months and because I had prior electronics experience I
self-generated through the school and finished early and then I was selected as an instructor for
electronics and so I became an instructor there for probably a year and during that year we had
Hurricane Camille. And I can remember if you lived off base and they had a hurricane you had a
choice of going onto base because of the security and- and storm shelters and so on, or you could
stay off- off base. We elected to stay off base in our house and we were far enough off the beach
that we weren't gonna get flooded but I can remember looking out the window while Hurricane
Camille was coming through and the eye of the storm passed just to, in Gulfport just down from
us. And I could look out the window and saw all the trees going one way and then an hour or so
you could see the trees going the other way. And in the morning when we woke up, I had all- all
of us in the middle of the house, in the morning when I woke up the nails in the woodwork were
all out about a quarter of an inch from the house going back and forth and…
(34:57)
Interviewer: Now did you lose your windows or did they?
Nothing was damaged.
Interviewer: Okay.
We had limbs and so on around but I got out and I drove down to the beach and on the highway
was an ocean-going vessel sitting there and you could look down on the beach and there would
be dead cows because far out on an island there was a dairy farm and all those cows got
washed…
Interviewer: Wow.
�On to the beach. And there was, the water side of the highway was just leveled, the motels, the
bars completely leveled.
Interviewer: Okay now was this Biloxi, Mississippi?
This is in Biloxi, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay alright now when something like that happens the Military often gets
involved in clean up and support and other things like that so…
(35:53)
Right we had gotten out, the Air Force Base all the guys from the Air Force Base were assigned
to different groups and we would go out and police up the area and help in any way we could.
And probably the Air Force Base anywhere in the world, Army, Air Force, Marines there'sthey're there to help the communities and they certainly helped Biloxi.
Interviewer: Alright now are- are there other things that kind of stand out in your memory
from that time aside from the hurricane?
That, I would say pretty much no, we raised wire-haired terrier, but Biloxi was pretty much
getting family- family organized.
Interviewer: Right.
The kids were young, we were learning all about Military life, family life, and- and so on
meeting new friends.
(37:10)
Interviewer: Okay so did you just sort of socialize with other people who also had young
kids and things like that? Was there some kind of network there?
There was a camaraderie of that, we learned that when I was in Florida, we got together with
young couples because we had one child and there's, we had neighbors across the street from us
�that kind of took us in, they were older, and took us in and showed us the ropes. But meet a lot of
new friends, I wish we had Facebook back then so I could keep track of them all but, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright now you're also in- in the South in the 1960’s and you'd come down
from Grand Rapids I mean and you had a civil rights movement going and there had been
segregation and things like that, I mean to what extent were you aware of any of that kind
of stuff?
(38:11)
Such naive kids, my wife and I who, we had no idea that there was things like that going on. We
grew up at Grand Rapids in a- a pretty much all white school, we had two or three black students
in our class and didn't think anything of it. And we went down there and we saw these old shacks
along the road and we didn't see any of the white and black it was pretty much a community that
we didn't see any of that racism and so we didn't understand that that was really going on so we
were pretty much naïve kids.
(39:04)
Interviewer: Alright okay, alright now the orders for Korea, was that a surprise or were
you expecting something?
Pretty much like I said in- in, we all go into our individual place- areas and- and there was five of
us out of the school, out of the instructor school that got orders. Three of us went to Korea and
two of ‘em went to Vietnam, so I could have gone to Vietnam very easily, but my assignment
was Osan Air Base, Korea.
Interviewer: Okay alright and how did they get you out to Korea?
(39:52)
�Flew, we went from Washington, Fort Lewis Washington, Tacoma to Korea that was quite a
long- long ride you'd fly it into Alaska and then from Alaska to Korea.
Interviewer: Okay and where is Osan in Korea?
It's below the 38th parallel it's in probably the middle of South Korea, it's kind of a, there's
several air bases around there but Suwan and- and Osan were pretty close together.
Interviewer: Okay alright and now your job is essentially what you had…
My- my job is a little different this time like I said in- in Mississippi I was
working on Doppler radar, inertial navigation systems. We had I believe it was three or four CT
29s and they were used strictly to monitor the DMZ zone, so when they flew we didn't work, we
worked when they were- when they landed and if there was anything wrong we would go fix thethe Doppler radar.
(41:26)
Interviewer: Okay.
But if there's nothing wrong we didn't work and so we spent a lot of downtime in Korea not
working and…
Interviewer: Alright now the aircraft itself was- was that propeller-driven or a jet?
Yep, it was propeller- driven it was a C-47.
Interviewer: Okay.
I believe C… CT 29s, it was a above the C-1, C-23s. This was a four-engine turboprop and
camouflage paint and strictly used for recon on the DMZ.
Interviewer: Okay so it had radar systems, so basically it would fly over and try to monitor
any kind of activity there?
Had- had cameras, big cameras and it’d take pictures of the DMZ.
�(42:24)
Interviewer: Alright now at that point in- in time I mean was there much tension there
along the border? Where their incidents are things that happened in that period?
Daily, they would rake the beach every day and you would walk down the street and every
intersection had a anti- aircraft in- encampment there. They took it very serious, you didn't,
Koreans themselves wouldn't- wouldn't walk down the street without carrying an ID card. The
ID card was their freedom and that they took the North and South very serious.
Interviewer: So, they were always concerned about infiltrators or anything else like that.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Now you said, “rake the beach,” where you near…
Yeah near the… I think it's a Yellow Sea, China's…
Interviewer: Was it on the western side, south of Seoul? Or where you on the other side?
No we were south of Seoul.
(43:34)
Interviewer: Yeah.
But when, on the beach they would rake it so they could tell whether somebody landed or swam
or however and they could tell whether somebody was on the beach infiltrated, so.
Interviewer: Alright and now did you have Korean military personnel working with you at
all?
No, we had, this was all Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay.
Back at Luke Air Force Base we had civilians that would work with us, but this was all Air
Force.
�Interviewer: Okay but you still had contact with at least the civilian population that area…
Oh yeah, oh yeah we have papasan for our dormitories and we would have, we'd go off base and
fraternize with the locals. Our big thing was going to the orphanage, most every weekend we'd
take a Air Force vehicle and go to the orphanage and they would treat us like kings. We would
play with the kids and then they would put on a little skit for us and they would put a display of
fruit and vegetables and we'd eat, just it was very touching the orphanage.
(45:05)
Interviewer: Okay now did you bring things to them or give them support of one kind or
another?
I don't think we brought anything to them, there was, it- it was more just going there and playing
with them, watching them, them having somebody. Koreans love to have a conversation with an
American, they- they like that English, learning English conversation that was one big thing that
stood out with me.
Interviewer: Okay and did some of the single guys have Korean girlfriends and things like
that?
(45:46)
Yeah that was- that was part of a lot of- a lot of the Orientals that you see in the States nowadays
were from the Korean and Vietnamese and so on. It would be a thing, young ladies were kicked
out of their families at a young age 13, 14, 15. They had no use, these are stories that I've been
told and that I've seen, the- the boys in the family could produce, they would farm and so on but
the girls were not too much use. So they were sent off to the city, big city and Mamasan would
take ‘em in because they had no place to go, so Mamasan would have them work in their club,
tend bar, waitress, and buy ‘em clothes, feed ‘em, give ‘em a place to stay and before you know
�it the young lady is there for a year or two and she owes Mamasan several thousand dollars
because interest rate is so high and she could never pay it off. So, she's indebted, Mamasan takes
her ID card and she can't go out onto the streets and so she's pretty much an indentured slave
right there. So, a GI comes along and meets her in the bar and they start seeing each other and
before you know it, he pays off Mamasan and buys her salvation and then they move into a- a
little hooch themselves and end up getting married.
(48:00)
Interviewer: Or not probably.
Transferred to the… what’s that?
Interviewer: Probably some of them don't get married.
Oh yeah, yeah but the ones that get married are transferred to the States.
Interviewer: Right.
And it's a whole- a whole new story.
Interviewer: Sure, okay and I guess I mean of course some of them would, they would wind
up, they’re working for Mamasan they wind up in prostitution in some cases.
Oh yes.
Interviewer: Now where there also drug problems at that time?
I didn't see- I didn't, the only thing I can remember is a few of the guys would smoke marijuana,
but as far as drugs no.
Interviewer: So, heroin hasn't gotten there or anything like that?
No, no it was- it was pretty clean there was the venereal disease and so on but then AIDS wasn't
there yet.
Interviewer: Right.
�(48:54)
And but it was pretty utopia, you'd go to the, you go down to the village and you'd go to the bars,
you'd drink, have fun, go back to the dormitories, you have to be off the streets by 10 o'clock at
night. And if you weren't off the streets then you would end up in a- a hooch with a girl and that
would be your life saving until the morning when you could get back out onto the streets.
Interviewer: Right, now did you learn to eat Korean food?
Loved it, I was 185 pounds when I went to Korea and when I left, I was a hundred and forty-five.
I ate everything, I'd go out to the farmers, out to the farmland and they would be welcome you in
and you'd sit around the table and they have about ten different items, they just ate tremendously
but it was dried fish, kimchi, which was very hot and everything was irrigated with human feces
and so you have to clean it real well and I would have all kinds of diarrhea and parasites and you
name it that but I- I went out and I enjoyed it.
(50:29)
Interviewer: Okay now did you develop any resistance to that stuff after a while or?
Evidently I could go down to the village and you'd go through the market and there would be
squid, dried squid hanging, you’d pull the tentacle off and you'd eat it like rawhide, you know
like jerky. And you'd go in, I- I'd eat the octopus, I’d eat it all. I pay for it.
Interviewer: And you’re still alive.
And I'd still pay for it, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright now I take it your, while you were in Korea your family was still back
in the States.
Right that was an unaccompanied tour.
Interviewer: Alright so how long total did you spend in Korea?
�13 months.
Interviewer: Okay.
I did come home for Christmas and saw my grand- my son for first time he was talking. Boy that
really tore me up.
Interviewer: Now- now when- when you got back, I mean did he know who you were?
(51:31)
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Good because he wasn't afraid of you?
Yeah, we kept in touch you know through telephone and letters and so on.
Interviewer: Okay now when you called home could you just use a regular phone line for
that or?
Yeah.
Interviewer: Was there…
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay so it wasn't like in Vietnam where you had to have a ham radio operator
in the middle or whatever.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Okay now I'm looking at your sequence, I thought one of the things that you
did before Korea was you spent some time as an Air Force recruiter?
Yeah that was your right we went from, well we went from…
Interviewer: Eglin?
Mississ- from Eglin to… how did we go?
�Interviewer: Or was it, or did you go from Mississippi to Grand Rapids?
Went from Mississippi to Korea.
Interviewer: Okay.
And then from Korea to Grand Rapids as an Air Force recruiter.
Interviewer: Okay and was that your first stint as a recruiter?
Yes, it was.
Interviewer: Okay so before we get there, other things that stand out in your memory from
time in Korea?
(52:36)
Pretty much the orphanages, the, I did fly on the CT 29 and we were able to fly along the DMZ
and the pilot and navigator and told us what he was doing and showed us everything. That was a
very interesting, but the life in Korea was pretty much on base, working, we went we- we met
some college students from Korea, and they were just interested in talking, they want- they want
in the most way to learn conversational English.
Interviewer: Right.
And so, we did that and…
Interviewer: Did you go into any of the larger cities like Seoul or any place?
(53:31)
Oh I was in Seoul with the friend of mine we- we walked, we were walking down the street in
Seoul and just enjoying, looking at different sites and so on and all of a sudden we went into this
teahouse and the lady told us, “you know you’re not supposed to be in this area,” and it was in a
trucking area, and I guess it was off-limits to either United States, U.S. people or it was off-limits
�to military and so we scurried out of there real quick, had no idea, we just walked, enjoined, and
so that was our tour in Seoul and then we, you go back and forth on a bus, a military bus.
(54:33)
Interviewer: Okay now were there ever actual- any actual incidents involving you know
North Koreans or people trying to get on your base or anything else like that?
No, it was pretty much peacetime, nothing to write home about.
Interviewer: Okay alright so you have, you finished Korea now you get to go back to
Grand Rapids and now you're working as an Air Force recruiter and now this is like early
1970s here, okay so describe what- what was that like?
Being an Air Force recruiter was one of the proudest moments, proudest times in my career. I
was, went to Lackland Air Force Base for recruiting school and then I came home, and I was
assigned to Allegan County, South Kent County, I had several about 20 schools that I would go
to each, I would make my rounds of all the schools. And the- the big thing that stands out is
some of the teachers and counselors that I had met complemented me on the fact that I would go
to the school and present myself and ask to see so-and-so student to recruit and unlike the other
Military services they would come in and they would demand this, and demand that, and I want
to see this person and that person, but mine was a low-keyed approach and I made a lot of friends
with the counselors, friends that I have today I even bowl with one that I talked- talked to about
going into the service and he ended up joining the Navy as an officer. So, these are the types of
friendships and- and things that I did as an Air Force recruiter.
(56:46)
Interviewer: Okay now did you encounter any kind of anti-war sentiment or would there
be people in some of these places who were hostile to you because you were recruiting?
�No, I- I always and this was in the- the height of Vietnam, I was always proud to walk around
with my uniform and I had never been harassed except one time I went into South Christian High
School and there was a very liberal female teacher that said something about it and her other
teacher they said, “just ignore her, she- she doesn't know what she's talking about.” But that was
the only thing that stood out because I had- I had never been harassed, never been spit on.
Interviewer: Well this was not exactly a hotbed of radicalism.
Right.
Interviewer: Especially outside of the City of Grand Rapids itself probably.
Right.
Interviewer: You would not encounter a lot of that too much, alright now what kinds of
things motivated people to join the Air Force at that point?
(57:49)
Jobs and schooling, the when I was there that my first tour, women were being accepted into the
Military to do non- non female roles. I had put in the first jet engine aircraft mechanic that was a
female. Beautiful little girl from Wyoming- Wyoming High School and she- she was a model, I
mean she was just gorgeous and I says, “you want to go in a jet engine?” “Yeah I want to do
something that is, that women don't do,” so she did go into the Air Force and she did go in to jet
engine mechanics and after about three years she says, “I'm tired of being one of the guys and
getting grease under my fingers,” and so the Air Force offered her any job, she was qualified for
everything she- she scored high and she decided that no I'm gonna get out. And so, they offered
you know one or the other, she decided to get out and to this day she had, I still see her from time
to time and she says, “I wished I had stayed in.” And that's the- the type of person I think that I
was putting in the Air Force I have a- a log scrapbook then when they come back on leave and I
�encourage them to stop in and see me. I have ‘em sign-in and take a picture and see how they're
doing. Several of my recruits have retired from the Air Force and the ones that stayed in for four
they said, “it was great time, I enjoyed it, I learned a lot but I'm not gonna do it again,” you
know.
(1:00:06)
Interviewer: Yeah at this point did you have some people who were doing this to stay away
from the draft?
Yes but most of them were I would say most of them I recruited myself. They- they didn't
necessarily come into my office to get out of the draft.
Interviewer: Okay.
But yes, some of them were motivated to- to do that but most of them were coming in to look for
a job.
Interviewer: Alright now how many people would you get in a month or did you have
quotas or?
I had quotas, we would have maybe four or five men a month and then they started putting
quotas on us for the females and I did very well, and I think I won an award for recruiter of the
month for female. They also had prior service quotas and a lot of the prior servicemen that I put
in I still see today and communicate with them today. The quotas were met without any problem,
the Army, Navy, they would always, we were in the same offices all together and would always
see if they had any- anybody that I could give ‘em and we did, a lot of the kids that didn't qualify
for us we'd send ‘em over to the Navy, and the Army, and the Marines.
(1:01:47)
�Interviewer: Yeah, I guess how tough were the rules or the expectations?
Our- our expect- expectations on qualifying mentally were strict. We would require on a Air
Force qualifying test a score of at least I believe it was 31, I'm not exactly sure but the Army and
the Marines could go down a- a couple points and so we’d send ‘em over. Physically if they
didn't pass our physical, they pretty much couldn't pass the physical for the other services either.
Interviewer: Yeah right did you have people who didn't pass the physical who’d go away,
get in better shape, and come back?
(1:02:36)
Yeah had a young lady that had to lose her weight and she lost it and she's retired, stayed in. I
just communicated with her a- a few weeks ago on Facebook and…
Interviewer: Okay now how long did that first stint in Grand Rapids last?
Four years.
Interviewer: Okay.
It was a four-year tour at the end of it I was the tester, I would travel around West Michigan up
to Traverse City and give the ASVAB Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery.
Interviewer: Right.
To schools, to the Air Force offices, to give the tests to the students.
Interviewer: Okay now do you, did they, did the Air Force just rotate you out of that
assignment or did you ask for something different?
(1:03:28)
No, it was a normal rotation and from there I was assigned to Arkansas.
Interviewer: Okay.
Little Rock, Arkansas.
�Interviewer: Alright and what were you gonna do there?
I was working on C-130s in my inertial navigation Doppler radar.
Interviewer: Okay.
And it was like a duck out of water going from recruiting back into the maintenance and that
time they went from transistors to solid-state, they hadn't gotten into what they have today yet
but.
Interviewer: So, it wasn't computerized yet?
It- it was, we were always computerized we had kind of like an analog computer as opposed to
the digital age. Looking back at- looking back at Little Rock was, it- it still old-school electronics
but the C-130 aircraft is- is still going today and it was a workhorse in Vietnam and that's whatthat's what we use.
(1:05:00)
Interviewer: Yeah so that's the big cargo plane.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now where some of the C-130s fitted with extra equipment because a C130 can do different things.
It can, we used it strictly for cargo.
Interviewer: Okay alright and now did you have to learn new technology or upgrades from
what you had worked with before?
Pretty much I just learned it through this squad, through the shop. I was assigned to work with a
few guys, and we learned C-130, we had a- a classroom set up for a couple weeks.
Interviewer: Now what rank were you at this point?
I was a staff sergeant, E-5.
�Interviewer: Okay so when you come in and you join this particular group you have some
seniority or…
Yeah, I was in charge, I had two or three people under me that would work.
(1:06:02)
Interviewer: Okay now did your family move with you to Little Rock?
The family was with me, took the dogs and kids and jumped in a, I think we took a U-Haul to
Little Rock and got a house. We lived on base so that was kind of nice.
Interviewer: Now was there a school on the base or did the kids go off base?
Yeah, on- on base housing and they had the school right on the base and some of the high school
kids would go off base but there was a- an elementary school on base.
Interviewer: Alright and how long were you there?
(1:06:50)
A year, about a year and a half and one of the things that I- I forgot about was I was a bowler and
I started, I've always been a bowler all my life but in 1972 when I was a recruiter I started getting
active in bowling and I was a- a junior bowling coach, my daughter was one of my students, one
of my bowlers and I became active in the Association, the Bowling Association and became a
director of the Grand Rapids Bowling Association. So, when I went to Arkansas, I was a junior
bowling coach there because all of our Air Force bases have bowling centers and entertainment
like that. As a matter of fact, a bowling center on an Air Force Base is the community center that
everybody goes to to have coffee, to eat, to socialize, and so on. And so, in Arkansas I was a
junior bowling coach and then became a member of the, their association board and this is where
I met a lot of people that I would be eventually stationed with in another base.
(1:08:34)
�Interviewer: Okay.
And so, in Arkansas we went out to the Diamond Mines in- in Arkansas, one of our things to do,
activities. And I did a- a lot of metal detecting out there besides our, we in the Air Force you
work about eight hours a day and you have Saturdays and Sundays off unless there's activities.
So that's how I sold the Air Force too as a recruiter, was it was like a job, full-time job that you're
on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but you only work just like at normal, normal job.
Interviewer: Okay now what brought the Arkansas assignment to an end?
(1:09:35)
From there we went to, I went to Omaha, Nebraska for a school to learn- to learn the KC-135
and we were on our way to Okinawa and so I- I learned the KC-135 that's a big Air Force tanker
and that's what I was gonna be working on in Okinawa.
Interviewer: Okay so when do you get to Okinawa?
That I went there in ‘77 and from ‘77 to ’80.
Interviewer: Okay.
And there I had my family and we were able to bring our dog and flew over with the family on a
big 747. That took quite a while.
(1:10:37)
Interviewer: Yeah.
I remember the kids laid out the 77…7…
Interviewer: 747, yeah.
…47 was empty in the back so we were able to put all the armrests out and we would sleep on
the eight seats across and that was quite a - quite an experience.
Interviewer: Okay so what base were you at in Okinawa?
�We were at Kadena Air Base and overseas they call them Air Bases as opposed to Air Force
Base.
Interviewer: Right.
In the United States and we went to- got to Kadena and we had a little house off base and met
helicopter pilot as our neighbor and became real good friends with them. And did a lot of
hanging out, again he was an officer and I was an enlisted man but that, the fraternization there
was we were neighbors, you know. And so eventually we moved on base to a brand-new house
on- on a hill and it was pretty neat, everything is made of concrete because of the sy- the
typhoons.
(1:11:59)
Interviewer: Right.
And spent three and a half years on Okinawa and kids went to American school there and we
worked KC-135s.
Interviewer: Okay so what were you doing in your regular job then?
We'd go out and we'd work on the- on the airplanes. The pilots would fly ‘em and if there was
any- anything wrong with ‘em they’d write it up and we'd go out and take care of the write-ups,
go back to the shop.
Interviewer: Were you still working mostly with radar systems or?
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
I'd be working with Doppler radar and…
Interviewer: And was this basically the same that you'd had on the C-130s in Arkansas?
Yes, pretty- pretty much the same.
�(1:12:55)
Interviewer: Alright and your, what was the relationship between the Americans and theand the locals in Okinawa?
Very, very good the only trouble we ever had was a- a few of the people would be against the B52s coming into land because they were nuclear capable.
Interviewer: Right.
And we had the SR-71 and there was a- a few protesters but other than that Okinawa was a small
island, about fifteen miles long and about two miles wide and we were there for three and a half
years you know just enjoying it. It was like subtropical, not as tropical as Hawaii, but this is
where all the mainland Japanese would come and honeymoon and- and visit, it was just a
wonderful place.
(1:13:59)
Interviewer: Okay alright so and of course this is all, now this is all post-Vietnam, so you
don't have anything… Cold War tensions are not really high at this point.
No Iran was one of the…
Interviewer: Yeah.
One of the problems there. Matter of fact one of our- one of our squadrons was lost in- in the
Iran when they went to rescue the hostages and all of a sudden I was involved in bowling again
and I was the island secretary treasurer of the Okinawa Bowling Association so we had an
intramural squad, a- a bowling league and one day one of the sq- one of the teams was gone and
that was the team that went to Iran to rescue the hostages and it was all top secret, we didn't
know a lot of it but you know the word gets around.
(1:15:13)
�Interviewer: Because I guess what there was that that was a sort of a failed attempt to get
in there and rescue, I think it was a heli- collision of helicopters I think, so it was a
helicopter unit or whatever that you lost.
Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And so that was the- the era of when we were there.
Interviewer: Right and how old were you, were your kids by the time you left?
Let's see in ’77, ‘80 my daughter was fourteen and my son was twelve.
Interviewer: Okay.
And from there we went to recruiting duty.
Interviewer: Okay and was that back in Grand Rapids again?
(1:15:58)
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah, but back in Okinawa against, my it seems like my career had a dual career with the Air
Force and bowling. On Okinawa I was the island secretary treasurer.
Interviewer: Right.
Like I had said, before but we had seven bowling centers in Okinawa, on the Marine base and
Army base and once a year I had to have to go to all of those bases and inspect the pins, the
lanes, the, that's what I did and so everything was geared around bowling. My commander and
myself, and my wife, and- and his wife, we vacationed together, we bowled together on four
different leagues, and my commander was a- a major and still are friends today. He got called on
the carpet a few times for fraternizing but it's something that we did.
�(1:17:04)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Our- our kids and their kids vacationed together on the- at the recreate- the recreation site on
Okinawa and that’s what we did.
Interviewer: Yeah, alright well I’ve always had the impression that- that the Air Force was
at least a little more casual about that than the other branches.
Yes.
Interviewer: But they’re, they still frown on it though.
Right, right it was kind of an unwritten rule, but you know as- as long as you don't get involved
with the- the military operation and insubordination and so on.
Interviewer: Right, okay now you had talked earlier about helping recruit women into
some of these different occupations so when you were in Arkansas or Okinawa were there
women in any of your teams at this point?
(1:17:57)
Oh yeah, yeah I was in charge of young lady that was in Doppler radar with me and severalseveral women were out there on the flight line pulling aircraft equipment around, and being a jet
engine mechanic, and being an aircraft mechanic, being a cop that's one thing that women
weren't allowed to do at one time, and I put several of them in as security policemen.
Interviewer: Alright now were you aware of any issues of harassment or other kinds of
problems because they were women? Or was that not on your radar?
No, again it was kind of a unique thing, new thing and I would imagine I didn't hear anything,
you always do know that some of the old-timer’s, “women aren't allowed in here” and so on but
it was never out in the open.
�Interviewer: Okay.
(1:19:04)
If somebody didn't like it, they kept it to themselves.
Interviewer: Or if it was happening it wasn't getting reported to you.
Correct.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay alright so now you're going back, now would the Grand Rapids
recruiting assignment would be the last- would that be the last thing you did or?
That's the last thing I did and unfortunately, I couldn't get into Grand Rapids I was assigned to
Kalamazoo.
Interviewer: Okay.
So for a year I was in Kalamazoo and kept fighting my way to get back to the Grand Rapids
office but I would travel from Grand Rapids to Kalamazoo every day and because I had a house
that we bought when I was a recruiter the first time and we just rented that out while I was gone.
Interviewer: Right, okay now so you do this for about four years?
Four year.
Interviewer: In Michigan again, okay and now what leads you to retire out of the Air
Force?
(1:20:01)
Well my kids were in high school and I had an option of going somewhere else I didn't know
where, but going somewhere else or retiring and I thought as long as the kids now were in high
�school they had had friends before when we were there in- in ‘72 and so I wanted to keep
stability there.
Interview: Right.
They were- they were good in every school that they went to in the Military, they adapted well
but I thought it was time that we just settle down.
Interviewer: Okay and then did you find a job, a civilian job then?
I changed my uniform on Friday and put on my suit on Monday and sold real estate.
Interviewer: Okay.
And this is where I met Bill Schraeder and my…
Interviewer: So what- what led you into- into real estate?
Bill Schraeder, I was in the- in the office and recruiting office and Bill being the Military guy
that he is he would come into the office and he would talk to me, “I'm in real estate now, you
want to get into it.” So, him and I got into, I got into real estate with him in another office and we
became friends from that point on.
Interviewer: Alright so I guess when- when you look back now over your service career
what do you think you took out of that or how did that help to shape you?
(1:21:39)
It definitely made a man out of me like they all say going into Military, make a man outta you.
The- the probably the biggest influencer and so on is bowling. I bowled a lot in the Air Force as I
had explained and after I sold real estate, I bought a bowling center, I went, I graduated from
Davenport college the same year I retired from the Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay.
�And the Air Force paid three quarters of my tuition all the way through twenty years and I finally
retired or finally…
Interviewer: Graduated.
Graduated from Davenport College and I did a- a business plan on a bowling center and not
knowing I was gonna buy one six years later when I retired, I sold real estate and then I went in
1990 bought a bowling center. And one that I grew up in and…
(1:22:48)
Interviewer: So, which- which one is that?
Paragon Bowling Center in Burton Heights.
Interviewer: Okay is that still up and running?
It's still up and running, I've remodeled it from the early retro 1945 era to present and I had it for
sixteen years, sold it in 2006 and now I just drive Uber, work for the Christmas light show, and
metal detect, I'm a ring finder.
Interviewer: Very good. Alright well the whole thing makes for pretty good story and
definitely a distinctive one so thank you very much for coming in and sharing.
I appreciate it.
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9920bdcd91f789c2e0bf7264933e8c7.mp4
a5fdbe7f2dd43ba56543a8220446cc78
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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LarabelG2325V
Title
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Larabel, Gregg (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Larabel, Gregg
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Gregg Larabel was born on November 2, 1944 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. After he graduated high school, Larabel joined the Air Force on October 10, 1962 due to his interest in electronics. He attended basic training in San Antonio, Texas, and was then transferred to Amarillo, Texas for a thirty-two-week Pilot School where he was taught basic electronics and flight technology. After graduating Pilot School, Larabel was transferred to Luke Air Force Base in Phoenix, Arizona, where he was assigned to the 314th Armament and Electronics Squadron and worked on military aircraft, particularly the F-100 Super Sabre. After his training at Luke Air Force Base, Larabel was reassigned to the 33rd Tech. Fighter Wing at Eglin Air Force Base in Fort Walton Beach, Florida, where he attended more schooling to help work on the more technologically advanced and easier to maintain F-4 Phantom II. In 1966, Larabel left the Air Force and returned to Grand Rapids where he married, had a child, attended Grand Rapids Junior College and then Kendall College of Art and Design before going to work for the Lear Siegler Corporation testing automotive equipment. Two years later, he went back into the service, attending schooling and working at Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. When Hurricane Camille struck Biloxi, he and his Squadron were tasked with providing relief to the devastated local population. Larabel was later transferred to Osan Air Force Base in South Korea where he worked as a mechanic on aircraft which monitored the DMZ. Back in the United States, Larabel worked as an Air Force Recruiter for schools across Kent County, Michigan, then was rotated to Little Rock, Arkansas, where he began work as a radar mechanic on AC-130 cargo planes at the rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. In Little Rock, Larabel also became the Junior Bowling Coach for the on-base Bowling Association. He was then sent to Omaha, Nebraska, for a course on the KC-135 Stratotanker before being deployed to Kadena Air Base in Okinawa from 1977 to 1980. Before retirement, Larabel transferred back to recruiting in Michigan and later went to work selling real estate and purchased a bowling center in 1990. Reflecting upon his service in the Air Force, Larabel believed it made a man out of him and joked how bowling continued to capture his attention and influence his side careers while in the service.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-08
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a67bf7b5d4ae83e9bd62cb4c314e3282.pdf
fabd1e1e78ec54cc5378800eb20b79f4
PDF Text
Text
�������������������������������������
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Garland, Dudley Hoare (Interview transcript), 1945
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Garland, Dudley Hoare
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Garland, George (transcriber)
Description
An account of the resource
Dudley Hoare Garland served as an artillery officer in the Ninth Infantry Division during World War II. Assigned to Battery A, 26th Field Artillery Regiment, which normally supported the 39th Infantry Regiment, Garland eventually became its commanding officer, and then moved to the staff of the divisional artillery when promoted to the rank of Major. Garland landed with his unit in North Africa and served in North Africa, Sicily, France, Belgium and Germany. He was assigned to return to the US in March, 1945, and while there, he visited the office of his brother George in New York City, and recorded some of his experiences on his brother’s office Dictaphone. The original recording was not preserved, but George’s daughter, Kent Garland McKay, had the transcript, which she has shared with us for posting to this archive. This file also includes information given to Garland by his former commanding officer, Lt. Col. Lewis Lockett, when Garland visited him in a hospital in 1943. The transcript covers a variety of topics, including having his ship sunk off the coast of Algeria, fighting in Tunisia, Sicily, Normandy, Belgium and Germany, relationships with other officers and civilians, meetings with high ranking generals and political figures, and different aspects of daily life in the countries where he was stationed.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03-12
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GarlandD
Format
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application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/914e4667ff45e2db00d15b988a7c9971.pdf
c5b31590280fdb881f8a30a772042938
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Moises Nazario
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 39:41
Interviewer: Alright, so we have gotten you now…Okay, so you had been talking—you
were talking about how you didn’t really want a Bronze Star, you just wanted to go back
out and—
Veteran: No, I didn’t. I turned them down, you know. I turned them down. I said, “No, I don’t
want Bronze Star. I didn’t get hurt.” You know, and the funny part is, when Obama started
handing these out, I was reading through some of the citations on these people and I said,
“Damn,” I said, “I did more than this thing, you know?” And they cheapened the award, you
know. Anyway, we got back there, you know, and we just continued our—through the sweep.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: One guy stepped on a mine. I was maybe from here…Maybe, well, close to 15 met—
not even 15 meters apart. You know? This guy got lifted off the ground. And I was right next
to—close to him. But luckily, I didn’t—nobody got hurt except this guy. And this guy only had a
laceration of the leg. I said oh man, I didn’t know at the time that the landmine, if it gets buried,
it continues to go up and then goes—and this mine that he stepped on, huge, huge, huge mine
because it really—all of us were covered with dirt. All of us were covered with dirt. It would
�have wiped us out if we had been all riding together. It would have wiped us all out. So,
somebody up there has been watching me, you know. Watching all. Well, whoever it was must
have been watching me. And I just—all I had to do on this guy was just put a butterfly bandage
on this guy. You know? I was the first one to, because I was close to him, I was the first one to
go to get to him as a corpsman.
Interviewer: Alright. And now, one other thing that you had mentioned kind of in passing
earlier—you said you spent your 30th birthday in Vietnam under not very—
Veteran: We had just got there. I just got there, and we were on the battalion sweep.
Interviewer: Okay. So, that was on the sweep, yeah.
Veteran: Okay, on the battalion sweep. We were at Hill 400. You have heard of Hill 400, right?
Interviewer: I have heard of a lot of hills.
Veteran: Yeah, we were there. And we found graves of North Vietnamese soldiers. We dug
our—we were supposed—we were sweeping that area to find out where some were left over.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:02:29)
Veteran: But there was no more leftover Vietnamese. Instead, we found graves of these North
Vietnamese. There was about 15, 20 bodies in these graves.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I didn’t bother to really get close enough to, you know. I didn’t want any part of that.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, what was the terrain like that you were operating in? What
kind of country were you moving and patrolling in?
�Veteran: Hills, rice paddies…
Interviewer: Did you get up into the mountains?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, we were like I say, the Ho Chi Minh Trail is right up there.
Interviewer: Yeah, well that is sort of over in Laos and coming out of Laos in Vietnam.
Veteran: We were there.
Interviewer: But you were up along the border in that area?
Veteran: Yep, up around that area. I think that’s what it was. You know, because—although we
came—could we have walked that far from Phu Bai?
Interviewer: You probably wouldn’t have walked the whole way. You would have taken a
helicopter for part of the way.
Veteran: Well, we did go by some helicopter but…I don’t know. Maybe we did.
Interviewer: Well, there were a lot of—well, and there were branches of the Ho Chi Minh
Trail that kind of come into the South Vietnam. One goes down to the A Shau Valley and
there is other places in there. But anyway, but you were in some mountain country, hill
country, lowlands with rice paddies… A bunch of different kinds of terrain.
Veteran: Yeah. That’s where we were ambushed that first time, that ambush that I was—
experienced. I wasn’t involved in the ambush, you know, but it was on that hill. In that—we
were up—and I was sitting in the mountain with my feet hanging and that’s where that chaplain
�and I were sitting and then we heard the chopping by the Marines—the head—they were cutting
the head of the…
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Alright, I just wanted to make sure we had that in there.
Veteran: I don’t know. Maybe that was at the Ho Chi Minh Trail?
Interviewer: Well, could be. Yeah and…
Veteran: I told you…
Interviewer: Well, the different—well, it will be possible—it’s possible to trace the route of
2nd of the 9th and kind of know where it was when exactly and tie it in. But yeah. But
basically, you are overall—you were in a variety of different kinds of areas. (00:04:44)
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you operate in any areas where they still had civilians?
Veteran: No. No, I just—the battalion that I was attached to had been known—all the burning of
the villages? This kept—the battalion did it. These are the ones that did it. You know, and by that
time, I was at Da Nang when they were doing that. But that—by the time I got there, they were
sent up north. They were sent up north to the…
Interviewer: Okay, because there were areas up there where they had taken the civilians
out. I mean, there were still some up in the hills, some that—
Veteran: No, I never…
Interviewer: But you were—
�Veteran: Well, I did. This is—saw some. We were in one of the…It looked like a city, you know,
looked like a city. We were walking on this Highway 1. I think that’s what they called it:
Highway 1.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, along the coast of Quang Tri—either south of Quang Tri or near
Hue or…
Veteran: Yeah. We were walking there. But—and I—we saw some of those civilians. But we—
there was not—there was no fighting there.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: No, nothing.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you ever work at all with the South Vietnamese military?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you ever see them?
Veteran: If I did—I probably did but I am not—they are not significant enough for me to
remember, you know?
Interviewer: Alright. How would you characterize the morale of the Marine units that you
were serving with?
Veteran: The which one?
Interviewer: The morale.
Veteran: The Marines?
Interviewer: The morale of the Marines, yeah. Their attitudes. (00:06:17)
�Veteran: Very good. Very good. All of them were in a very good mood. Although, one of them
that we had eventually got cracked up, you know, and I had to send him back to the rear. We
were out somewhere in the village. Not in the village…Around a mountain close to the rice
paddies. And I heard this howl like a dog. And I thought oh my god, the—you know, we just got
out of rice and rice paddies. And I have very poor direction, so I travel with the radioman all the
time. I was close to him, violating the 15-meter rule.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was falling down in the rice paddies and the guy came down along with me at the
time. And he’s like, “Get off me.” And when we got up there, all of a sudden, we hear this—I
hear this sound like a dog howling. What would you think when you hear something like that?
That somebody is around there close to you, you know? I said, “Oh man…” But it turned out, he
called me. He said, “Doc, come here.” So, I went in there and saw this guy. This guy was just
rocking on that ledge, or wherever he is sitting, cracked up. And later on, I found out that he felt
guilty because he’s one of the Marines that have probably raped some of the civilians and burned
the hooches, burned all these villages.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And he cracked up. But what I heard from the other Marines, you know, this is one of
the Marines that did it. And it’s too bad but I have to send him back to the rear.
Interviewer: Sure. (00:08:12)
Veteran: I had to call the medevac in the middle of the night. I called them. You know, that’s the
worst you could do is get somebody a—get the medevac. So, they asked me in one of the
situations that I was in, because they could see that the helicopter light right away.
�Interviewer: Yeah, that was not standard practice to send those helicopters in at night.
Veteran: No, but they did, you know. The…You know, maybe I didn’t call—maybe I didn’t call
a medevac on that one. I called the medevac right at the—where the defoliation happened where
1/9 got wiped out. And when we relieved them, we got a couple of Marines that…That really
bad. This one laceration on the neck, you know, with a—but I was able to stop the bleeding with
that one. And the other one, I don’t remember that one. And he threw a grenade, and it went back
to him. He threw a grenade; it went back to him. It hit a tree and went back to him. And the
captain asked me, he said, “What do you want? Do you think we should medevac him?” And
“What happened to him?” “I think he may have something else beside that, you know.” And I
said, “I think we better medevac, get this guy out of here. Get this guy out of here.” So, what we
did is I had—we had a party of Marines take these two guys way away from us so that the light
would be a good deal in there. And we medevaced in the night.
Interviewer: And do they get them out?
Veteran: They took them out.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The chopper came in, but I don’t even know whatever happened to the guy, to those
two guys.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you finish your Vietnam tour with that company, or did you
get reassigned before you left? (00:10:15)
Veteran: Okay, I finished it. My time was up in July, okay, July of ’67. My time was up in July
of ’67. Well, in between that, the captain was going to be transferred. Okay. In July…Well,
�maybe even…Yeah, July, somewhere in there, he knows he is going to be replaced. So, he came
over to me. He said, “Hey doc,” he said, “why don’t you stay with me?” Now, he is asking me to
extend in the line of fire, you know. “Why don’t you stay with me?” he said, “I know what you
can do. I don’t know what these bozos coming in is going to do.” Yeah, I like this guy, you
know. This is the thing, you know. You probably—I don’t know if you’ll hear this from anyone
there, other soldiers that you do an interview. So, I told myself: I like this guy and I sure would
love to repay him, you know, because he seen all the wrong around that I did, in spite of all of
this, without taking a bullet, without even thinking about what is going to happen to me, you
know. So, I told him, I said, “You know, I will make you a deal.” I said, “I will make you a
deal.” I said, “Send me on another R and R to Manila and when I come back, I will stay here
with you until they pull you back out.” “Oh,” he said, “We can arrange that.” He called the guy
to get back down with the plane the same day. The same day, he send me to Manila.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, so I was one of the probably few guys there that were able to go on R and R
twice. Normally you only have one R and R.
Interviewer: Yeah. Not without good connections. (00:12:12)
Veteran: I had to do—I was able to do it twice because of that thing.
Interviewer: And you knew where to go. You went to Manila both times.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, I went. My grandparents were still alive at that time.
�Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And so, when I came back, I came back to him and fulfilled my promise.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, I extended my time but luckily, he is—that guy was really smart. That Captain
Long was really smart. And I guess the top brass in Phu Bai have a use for him there.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, about two weeks later, they pull him out. So, now I am free. I was free but I stayed
two weeks of my time there. And luckily, that happened within my two weeks of time.
Yeah…And but how many people would you hear that extended their time in the field?
Interviewer: I have met some who have extended for different reasons, and some of them
went back in the field. And some of them got two R and Rs if they had the right
opportunities.
Veteran: Oh.
Interviewer: But it is unusual.
Veteran: Yeah, you know, and I said, “Oh man.” I always got—I had no regrets about any of
those, you know.
Interviewer: Alright. Now when you think about the year that you spent in Vietnam, are
there other particular stories or memories that you have that you haven’t talked about yet?
�Veteran: Well, I had some contact with a—with the RMK company, a U.S. company that had
some Filipino surveyors, surveying some areas, you know. So, I was able to hang out with them
on the outside—outside of the compound.
Interviewer: Wait, hang out with who?
Veteran: With the Filipino civilians.
Interviewer: Oh okay. So, you did see some of the civilians. (00:14:08)
Veteran: Yeah, I see some civilians. I was able to hang out every so often because of the
surveyors. They are under contract to RNK.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And you know, we played mahjong with—eat some Filipino food with them, you
know.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you are going out with Filipino contractors and hanging out with
them.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. That’s good. Alright. So, we get now—originally when we were doing
your paperwork, you said you were in Vietnam from October of ’66 to October of ’67. Is
that right? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, right exactly to the day. But the night before I was leaving, it was scary because
there were a lot of rounds…That’s what I hear. And one of the rounds I thought I was incoming.
It was an outgoing round but boy, I ran to the bunker. I ran to the bunker. And I was the only one
at that, you know…I—that’s another thing too: when the people are ready to go, they become
very cautious, you know. Yep, I run to the bunker. After a while, I was looking around. There
was nobody running except me. And I said—I laughed at myself. I say, “You fool.” It was
very—there is some humor in some of the things that, you know, that we did there. But not too
many. Otherwise…And I was never…you know, it never dawned on me that I was going to get
killed. All the time I was there, I thought—I know—I was coming back, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Whereas, in Cuba I was more tense, and I was more—it’s more harder for me in Cuba
than in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you finish your tour in Vietnam, you come back to the
United States.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Are you planning on staying in the Navy at that point? (00:16:08)
Veteran: Well, I had ten and a half years. Okay, I got—they said they would transfer me to
Cherry Point, North Carolina. All of my requests was the Philippines. They transferred me to
Cherry Point, North Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: And I didn’t even know where Cherry Point, North Carolina was until I go there. Well,
while I was there, see I was going to night school. I was attending night school, taking some
courses to fill out the credits that I need for medical technology.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Well, one of my classmates was the Command—Lieutenant Commander in charge of
personnel. Well, him and I got along really well while we were classmates. But the chief that he
was—that he had in charge of the personnel department…At the time he was chief, I was E-6.
Him and I…He’s just a typical redneck. You know? Him and I just didn’t see eye to eye. He’s an
alcoholic and all, you know, just a…So, I requested to go to lab tech school. The regular lab
tech.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, the one that you see, you know. And so, they send out—I got the orders, but
they want—my transfer is in December. The start of school was January 6th. This moron wanted
to transfer me December—middle of December. I said—so I asked him, I said, “Can you transfer
me on the 1st of December, so I don’t have to be looking for a house for Christmas? I have
two…” We had one kid and my wife was about to deliver. My wife was about to deliver. He
said, “No.” He said, “You are going to reenlist.” My enlistment was expiring. “You are going to
reenlist anyway regardless of when I transfer you.” I said, “Okay.” So, the commander and I
were talking at the classroom.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:18:16)
Veteran: I mentioned this to him. He said, “Why didn’t you come to me?” By that point, I
have—I have already gone out. I was decided to go out. The orders were already there for our
�goods to be picked up to be sent here to Milwaukee. So, he said, “Why didn’t you come to me?”
He said, “I could have transferred you even long before that.” I said, “Well, I see you got
somebody in charge of your department, I thought he knows what he’s doing, you know. So,” I
said, “I didn’t want to bother you with something like that.” You know? Boy, he chewed that guy
out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: He chewed that guy out. You know, and he said, “Well, I’d like you to stay.” I said,
“Too late.” I said, “I got 50 day—I mean, 90 days to reenlist.”
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Veteran: I got 90 days to reenlist. I said, “If it doesn’t work out…” because I never—I was really
mad at the Navy at that point because of them sending me to North Carolina, you know. I said, “I
don’t really, you know, I have no intention of staying.” At that point already, I was wanting a
nice civilian life. So, I got a job as a—at the time, I was only a lab assistant. I got a job at the
Milwaukee [unintelligible] as a lab assistant. And but then, Hong Kong Flu hit all of the family,
you know. Jeanie got Hong Kong Flu. The young—Becky…I mean John, our oldest son, got the
Hong Kong Flu. We only had two kids at the time. Becky and I got the Chicken Pox. So, we are
all sick. And I just got out of the service. I don’t have any—if you don’t work, you don’t have
any vacation, you have no money. So, we got bills to pay. I said, “You know, if I can get back
that school, maybe we should go back. I will talk to the recruiter and see if we can get—check
with Washington if I can get that school back. Then we could pay all these bills, you know.”
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:20:33)
�Veteran: We didn’t have any—much savings at the time, you know. Heck, I was 31 years old
you know, with nothing saved, nothing—you know? So, I went back and talked to the officer.
They called Washington. They didn’t even know I left. They didn’t even know I left. This is
already in December. So, Washington told them that that school I was supposed—that class I
was supposed to go to is already full, but they could put me in August. I said, “Is that a guarantee
that you’ll do it?” “It’s a guarantee that you are going to go to that school.”
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, I told to my wife, I said, “August? Yeah, we could go to—I will go in now then
maybe they will put me on a busywork schedule here, just picking up cigarette butts and all that
thing, you know.” So, I went back and reenlisted December 30th. December 30th, I reenlisted. I
joined the reserve in the meantime in between. I joined the reserve so I wouldn’t have any
broken service.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, I joined back. And I asked the lieutenant, I said, “What do you want me to do?”
Well, he said, “Nothing. Just stay home. I will give you a call. Just call me every morning, let me
know that you are still around. And when the orders come in—” we were waiting for my orders,
“—the orders come in, I will call you.” So, I went ahead and continued to work at the
[unintelligible]
Interviewer: Right. (00:22:25)
Veteran: --at the same time I was already getting my salary from the Navy. You know, so…I—
then they, in March, I got the order in March. So, I went from December to almost three months.
�Didn’t work in March, so almost three months. In March, they sent me back to—they send me to
Batista, at the research station in Batista.
Interviewer: Okay, so in Maryland.
Veteran: In Maryland. Awaiting for that class in June. So, I work at the research station there for
a while. And then, when that class in August started, they called—I got my orders to transfer
back there. In the meantime, the guy that trained me at Great Lakes in—I mean, the guy that was
the director of the laboratory at Great Lakes, who was responsible for the medical assistant
program, became the head of the training section of the pathology department in Maryland. And
at the time, he was soliciting people with the credits to college degree to apply for medical
technology program. It was just a higher level…
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: …than the—okay. So, I said, “Well, you know, I got—” he didn’t promise anything. He
said, “I will try my best to get you guys to take the national exam, the board exam, after you
complete this training.” He said, “I don’t want to—the ASAP, the CAP, to approve this to get
their approval because I don’t want them controlling the curriculum of the program.” And he was
a successful study of the CAP at the time, you know. So, I said, “You know, I got nothing to
lose, you know. I got a lot to gain but nothing to lose.” (00:24:38)
Veteran: I said, “So, I will apply.” I went ahead and applied. There were 21 applicants. All of
them with bachelor—two of us had a degree. We had over 90 credit hours. And out of the 21, a
lot of them are English majors so they didn’t have enough sciences in the…But I had a couple of
them with a master’s in microbiology. You know? And I was 1 of the 11 that was picked. The
other guy got picked too, the one with the, you know. And of the 11, 2 dropped out. They didn’t
�want to—they didn’t want the hassle of going through that program. They got—they were scared
of the—because he said this is going to be a very intensive study. This was really intensive
study. You know, unless you are—I read more books in that course than I have ever read in my
life, you know. You know, and so I went through it for a whole year. And that’s when I met, you
know, I met some other high energy people. One of them became President Nixon’s doctor.
Doctor Jacoby. And I was pretty tight with that Doctor Jacoby. You know, anywhere he seen me,
anywhere we met, he always stopped and shake my hands and, you know. And shake my hands.
He was very—I guess he—when I worked, I gave the best job that I have in my work, you know.
And that’s the same thing that happened with anybody that carried a tool, you know. And plus,
me going to school and doing all of that, he was very impressed that I had found this time to do
this. You know? So, at the time he was only a commander when I met him at Great Lakes. Then
he became a captain and then he became an admiral and became Nixon’s doctor.
Interviewer: Right. (00:26:47)
Veteran: You know? So…I got accepted to that program. I went to the program for a whole year.
And I finished at there too. One out of nine, I finished there. But we did—they gave us a sample
exam like the ASAP exam. I think I was 2nd out of the 9.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: I beat the other guys. You know, so I thought oh boy, this is a snap. This is a snap. This
is solely going to be like this. It’s a snap. It turned out much worse than what was…That year,
the ASAP was moving from Muncie to Chicago. Yeah, so they were all in a mess, you know.
And the exam that they gave us that year was really hard. The cutting score was only 88. You
�know? I said, “Oh man, it was really hard.” I didn’t find out that I pass it. I took it in November.
I didn’t find out until June.
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: And I found out I scored 111. So, I said, “Oh man, that…” So, barely…So, I became a
medical—I was a—you know, became a registered medical technologist. And so, now I have
something to market outside when I leave the Navy, you know?
Interviewer: Right. (00:28:22)
Veteran: So, in the meantime, Southern Illinois University came into the—to Camp Lejeune
campus. They started that program, the on-campus program, they had one that actually started
that I think. Because other universities eventually started doing it too here. And so, they came in.
I gave them my transcript, whatever I had. They said, “Okay, you are qualified for that 18
months program and you get a bachelor’s in healthcare administration.” You know? I said, “Oh,
I’ll take it. You know, I will go ahead and go for it. I got nothing to lose. I have more to gain
than to lose, you know.” So, but Jeanie was really saddled with the kids. At the time, we already
had four kids, you know. So, she was taking care of the kids while I was at—most of the time.
Plus, I was working part time, you know. And I got my degree in hospital—in that healthcare
administration when I left Camp Lejeune.
Interviewer: Okay. So, what year was that?
Veteran: 1978. February 1978.
Interviewer: Alright.
�Veteran: And when—I got a job waiting at the Milwaukee County Hospital when, you know—
that’s that chief that I was telling you I got run in. We almost got into a fistfight at the time. And
I embarrassed him in front of a whole bunch of young kids. You know what, I don’t know what
started it. He said something…He would have decked me or something, you know, the way I
was—at the time, I was E-7, he was E-8. He was the officer of the day, I was the—I mean, he is
the officer of the day, I was the chief of the day at the hospital administration lobby, you know.
So, I told him, I said, “In our younger years,” I said, “I would have put you in the hospital.” I
said, “You know,” I said, “you know why you are staying in the Navy? You got nothing to offer
outside.” I said, “You have got nothing. You may be the best personnel officer in the world,” I
said, “but without that piece of paper, you ain’t worth a damn. You know, I got something I can
market. I don’t need you. I don’t need anyone of you to do anything for me.” (00:30:58)
Interviewer: So, when did you have this encounter with him? Was that in ’78?
Veteran: That—this is ’78, before I retired.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Before I retired.
Interviewer: I guess you…Okay, yeah, okay because that is—so, basically now you—so,
now you really—
Veteran: No, maybe even late ’77, right around.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right.
Veteran: After late ’77, I put my application in to retire because I heard you need to put it in a
year ahead of time, see.
�Interviewer: Okay. So, you have lined up yourself a proper civilian job. And you know
where you are going and so—
Veteran: Yeah. And he doesn’t have anything. And he is nothing but an alcoholic, you know, just
a…He made E-9 because he is a bootlicker, you know.
Interviewer: But you have gone off—okay, so now did you have a career in hospital
administration? Is that what you did?
Veteran: No. I went to medical technology because I already had the experience there.
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: And then I went to [unintelligible] for the master’s in hospital administration.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I was one semester—one credit short to get my master’s, but I got mad with the
dean. Him and I got—you know, I was accused of unethical research. You know, I was—I
wanted to break the union that came into Milwaukee County for medical technologists. But it
was really 49 to 51 split, you know, in favor of the union. But a lot of these people claimed they
didn’t really want the union. You know? (00:32:32)
Veteran: So, I wanted to break the union but how do you go about that? It’s been done. I found
out later on it has been done because I did a lot of this research. And there is a group in
Philadelphia that got out of the unionization, the medical unionization. But they went to court.
They went to court. So, in my research, I found this out. But for me to do the research, my
advisor advised me to survey the medical technologists under assumed name.
Interviewer: Oh…
�Veteran: You know, because if I put my name, they know me. I was supervisor of the blood bank
already at that point, see. I was supervising the blood bank there already. You know? So, he said,
“Go and survey them.” He said, “There is a practice survey, check the survey.” Everything
passed, everything that I did passed. But then, somebody from laboratory administration went to
the dean and, “Find out who this person is.” They didn’t know. Well, I was on my second reader,
and he held the paper, but they didn’t tell me why. They didn’t tell me why they didn’t. So,
before the end—the semester was almost ending, you know. I called them. I did call them
because I wanted to see how I was doing, you know. But he should have given me the reason
why he did that. I could have—I would have went to him right then. So, I called him and he told
me that was the reason and so we started—I went to his office. He called me to his office, and we
talked. He said, “Some—” I said, “You call it unethical research? Why would your professor
advise me to use the assumed name?”
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:34:28)
Veteran: “If I had known that I would have used my name.” So, we got an understanding that it
was…Now, when he asked the professor, he said that I must have heard—he didn’t actually
directly accepted it. But he said he said that I must have advised him to do that, you know. But
you know, so—but at that point, I was already mad.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, the dean said, “Well, if you want, you can go ahead and finish it, but you are going
to—you are out of time. You are going to have to start again.” I said, “I am not going to pay you
another money for you to be able to control what I am doing.”
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: I said, “Give me something I can control, and I will do it. Give me maybe two more
courses instead of the thesis. I will go back and finish it. Otherwise, I don’t need that thing.”
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I already reached what I wanted to do. You know? So, that’s where I left it and I left it
there.
Interviewer: So, you went back to medical technology—
Veteran: I had always been in medical technology. At that point, I was already promoted to
supervisor of the blood bank. You know, I started some of the first stuff here in the city. You
know, like have you ever heard of Doctor Messerschmidt in Oregon? In Washington State? At
the cancer center? He developed a procedure. See, I was doing a job that no medical technologist
was doing. I was the only medical technologist. I had to train some of the other medical
technologists because I wanted the medical technologists to learn it because it could be done by
medical technologists. Usually, it is done by the nurses. And I was the only one that was doing it.
So, I trained some of these people. Well, Messerschmidt came out with this procedure where it
was a column absorption. (00:36:47)
Veteran: It was a column absorption where the—it’s an immunology thing, but the anti—the IgG
are absorbed by the column and the good IgG is then sent back to the patient. It’s a very effective
ITP, you know. And it came to Milwaukee because one of the things that he was selling was it
could cure some of the liver cancers. And I was doing this process—procedure—for the, you
know, I set up the section at the county.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now the main focus of our interview here is really your
military career. We have now kind of—
�Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: --come to the end of that and we see that it has launched you into a career in
medical technology.
Veteran: Yeah, that’s where I ended up.
Interviewer: And that’s the field that you stayed in. Alright. And basically, I’d like—so we
have kind of gotten to where we need to go for the purposes of our project. You have got a
truly remarkable story here. When you think back about the time that you spent in the
Navy…I mean, I guess you have told us a lot about this already, but how would you sum it
up? What do you think you took out of the Navy service or how did it effect you? (00:38:03)
Veteran: I grew up, I think. I think I grew up. I really…I think whatever we have now—we have
a very successful family, I believe. You know? And I have 9 grandchildren, 4 or 5 of them
finished college. One is in a PhD program at the WUM. This one just got his bachelor’s in
biochemistry and is going to be in the Air Force. And I have all the kids finish their college, you
know. So, I got that without the discipline that I learned from the Navy, that…you know, that
wouldn’t be there. I don’t know. Maybe it could have been better because I could have been a
millionaire in the Philippines as a gopher for the politician, you know. You know, I have my
uncle died and left his children, 6 children, a million dollar apiece in cash, plus the properties
that they all own in Manila, you know. And one of them became a billionaire in Manila
[unintelligible]. So, we don’t know, but whatever I have now, you know, is because of the Navy.
Because of the Navy.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to share the story
today.
�Veteran: Yeah. And you know, I hope there is something in there that could help maybe the
other veteran that… (00:39:41)
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/841b2544ae8f9d19e09916f8146faf6d.mp3
3bf1cdf3c289b919b64bf256cb7af5db
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_NazarioM2333V
Creator
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Nazario, Moises G
Date
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2019-08
Title
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Nazario, Moises (Interview transcript and audio, part 2), 2020
Description
An account of the resource
Moises Nazario finished his tour with his company in Vietnam in July 1967. After helping his captain in the last few months before the captain was to be transferred, Nazario was sent back to the United States in October 1967. He was then transferred to Cherry Point, North Carolina, where he attended medical technology courses at night school. He reenlisted on December 30th, 1967, and was sent to work at the research station in Batista, Maryland in March 1968. That August, Nazario began laboratory tech classes and applied for an intensive medical technology program. He was accepted into the program, passed the exam, and became a registered medical technologist. He then completed his bachelor’s degree in healthcare administration at Southern Illinois University, taking classes at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. He left Camp Lejeune in February 1978 to work at the Milwaukee County Hospital and work toward his master’s degree in hospital administration. However, just when he was about to finish his master’s program, he was accused of unethical research by the dean. Fortunately, he was able to continue his career in medical technology and work as a supervisor at a local blood bank. He believes that the Navy taught him discipline that helped him and his family become successful.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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Sound
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sound/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
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In Copyright
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4611680583ee7e7e0714e5f7f120a4a.pdf
63dc17d120ff2bcbd0b12d62309ca012
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Moises Nazario
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 1:15:18
[Note: The opening section of the recording is conversation preparatory to the start of the
interview, and is not transcribed here, which is why this transcript begins six minutes into the
interview.]
Interviewer: So, you are officially beginning the interview at this point. We are talking
today with Moises Nazario of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The interviewer is James Smither of
the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. And we are actually at the
2019 Milwaukee Irish Fest. And well, Mr. Nazario, you are not exactly Irish yourself… Tell
us where and when you were born. (00:06:42)
Veteran: I was born in Manila, Philippines, on October 25th, 1936.
Interviewer: Alright. And did you grow up there?
Veteran: I grew up there up to my 21st birthday.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you were living in the Philippines as a child during World War 2.
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Now, what—
�2
Veteran: I saw that too.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I saw some of it.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, what was your family—what did your family do for a living
when you were a kid?
Veteran: The job descriptions over there is really not commensurate to what we have here. And
my grandmother—my grandfather is a court stenographer. And my grandmother was…she is in a
buy and sell business of jewelry.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And she inherited some money from her parents. She’s pretty well to do.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: At that point, she, you know…And then she had one store, a kiosk store—a clothing
store that they owned. They have a few of them. And that sustained them for whatever…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, did you live with your grandparents?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I—after I—when I was born, my mother left me with them and took off and, you know,
just…
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:08:16)
�3
Veteran: She was an actress there and she pursue—she left and pursued the acting career, or
whatever it is, you know. And I didn’t meet her until late in life.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Maybe I was already 10-12 years old.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Now, so what do you remember about the war starting and the
Japanese coming in?
Veteran: Well, my uncle was in the Bataan Death March. So, they were there. And I didn’t really
know—I think I was… I was 6 years old. I was 6 or 7 years old…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: …when—1941, so I was 5 years old. And I remember when the Japanese took over. I
remember the air fights, the dog fights. I used to watch them in the street. I would stand there in
the street watching them, just like in the movies. And there was a guy there that—Jonathan
Wainwright was one of the generals that—and I always thought before one of the pilots there
was Jonathan Wainwright. I didn’t know that Wainwright was in Corregidor with MacArthur.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then there’s a Filipino fighter, William Moore, I think, he was one of the
aces…Filipino aces fighting there. I never saw any plane getting shot down, though.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now do you remember the Japanese coming in and occupying
the city?
Veteran: Yeah. They…It wasn’t really—there was really not…All I remember is they are right in
the city right away. I don’t remember them coming. I don’t—I never saw them come in.
�4
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, there wasn’t any fighting. The Americans had left.
Veteran: Well the city—there was no fighting in the city.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Veteran: There was no fighting in the city. But the fighting happened in the previous year.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. But now the Japanese have taken over. And now, they rule the
Philippines for the next several years. (00:10:29)
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Do you remember what life was like or was your life effected at all by the
Japanese being there?
Veteran: Not—my family wasn’t really directly affected, other than my uncle with—he was able
to escape the Bataan Death March and came back to the house.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we took care of him. He had malaria at the time. I remember the Japs as being
cruel. You know? I remember going to the province with my aunt and I was sitting next to my
aunt. One of the Japanese soldiers grabbed me by the arm. This is maybe about ’42, 1942 or ’43.
Grabbed me by the arm and yanked me out of—get out of the seat so he could sit next to my
aunt. You know? And there was a good Japanese officer—looked like a Japanese officer; at the
time, I didn’t really know anything much—a good Japanese officer saw what he did. And this
officer came over to this guy and called the guy and slapped the hell out of this guy. You know,
and he is bowing to the officer. And the officer set me back down with her. But that’s my
exposure to them.
�5
Interviewer: Yeah. So, some of them were—some of them behaved properly and some of
them didn’t.
Veteran: Probably. You know, probably.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: But my exposure showed that, you know. This one time. You know, but the problems,
from what I hear from stories from some of the people we know, they are actually killing people.
Actively killing people.
Interviewer: But within the city, I mean your grandparents could basically go about their
business? Your grandmother could run her kiosks or…? (00:12:18)
Veteran: Well, they didn’t have that kiosk yet at the time.
Interviewer: Okay. Okay.
Veteran: They—she was selling jewelry.
Interviewer: Okay. Okay.
Veteran: Buying and selling jewelry. And that supported us, so we were able to have a fairly
decent meal.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, with that…Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. And then do you remember the Americans coming back?
Veteran: Oh yeah. That was very memorable to me. I remember right in the city where I live,
they were marching in two columns: one of the street—on each side of the street. You know,
�6
they were coming in and initially before this happened, there was a truck loaded with Japanese
and Filipino traitors screaming, “Ha! You guys are going to be under us for more years!” They
said, “They are coming right behind us!” and we got the U.S. troops after that. That truck
disappeared. I never know where it went, you know. But the guys—the U.S. troops—this is in
the afternoon, maybe around 4 o’clock in the afternoon. And when we saw that as a kid—they
were giving out chocolate bars. So, as a kid I run out there, “Victory! Victory! Victory!” You
know, we were really excited, you know. And we followed them all the way to the main street.
Quite a long ways. Probably about 10 blocks away from where I lived. You know, 12 blocks
away. You know? And right around that one area, there’s a hotel where they have a 50-caliber
machine gun, a Japanese setup there, and they started firing. And that—in the meantime, some of
the troops were taking some of the booby traps…Some of the troops were taking some of the
booby traps out on the road. You know? Some of the booby traps on the road. And when they
start firing, the soldiers told us to go back home. You know, they did want us to go back. At that
point, I didn’t know at the time, that they had gone—see, that’s separating the city from the
southern part of Manila. The bridges—all the bridges—
Interviewer: Right. (00:14:47)
Veteran: --they blew away all the bridges. You know, they blew away the bridges and one of my
uncle’s wife’s family lives on that part. And they—because of this war, you know. And they
started this shelling, actually. And where the U.S. setup is maybe about 3 blocks away from
where I was. And you could hear the mortar—the rounds—coming in, you know, just out…So,
we were—they would just watch—we didn’t do anything unusual, we just stayed in the house,
you know. We continued playing in the street during the day, like what a kid does, you know.
Interviewer: So, how long did that shooting last?
�7
Veteran: Quite a while. Quite a while. And by the time it was over, there’s a lot of houses that
were destroyed in that area. And the one that landed right around the city hall—all the really
structured buildings that we had were all destroyed. You know, they were all destroyed. But I
didn’t—you know, being at that age, you know, you don’t really know, pay much attention. But
other than we know they are fighting. The fire fights—when they come back, there’s a lot of dog
fights. A few—once, I was out in this—to this store that sells candies, you know, things like that.
It’s the kind of store that’s all owned by Chinese, you know. And when this shooting started, we
ran out in the street and we saw this—all this thing that really, you know…And one of the 50caliber machine gun bullet landed in our house. My aunt was pregnant. There was—and she
delivered a baby then. It landed around the foot of the bed.
Interviewer: Wow. (00:16:44)
Veteran: Foot of the bed. You know? Yeah, and so, it was…At that point, I think I was maybe 8
years old already. Maybe 8 years old already. So, ’44? Yeah, I was 8 years old already. And that
one, I remember vividly because we named the book, ‘The Child Bombing.’ You know, that
was…He is still alive now. He is in Las Vegas. And we but, here, we didn’t do anything unusual.
We just used to go on with life. You know, if it hits you, it hits you. It doesn’t…
Interviewer: Alright. And then, did things quiet down a little bit after that? What are
you—as you are—now you are growing up and you are getting older…?
Veteran: Oh, the—another thing too, okay, when they came in…See, right where the U.S.
prisoners are held in Santo Tomas, I live close to that.
Interviewer: Okay.
�8
Veteran: I live close to that. Yeah, and around a block—south of—west of that, school—is
another school I went—where I went. You know, and we went to school that the Japanese used
as headquarters. When the fighting start, they were looting in there, you know. And being at that
age that—the concern at that point is the water. So, my first stop when I ran out was to go to that
building and get some of these canteen cans for water. (00:18:27)
Veteran: So, I ran into that school. The school—the building was on fire. I ran to the building.
There is a guy that I know that got killed, that wasn’t able to get out of there. Well, I was able to
get out, but then I got—I think I had almost a burned out movie projector, I had a bunch of
cans…You know? Maybe about 4 cans; 3 or 4 cans out there. And instead of coming back to—
going back to where I came in, I went to the Quezon Boulevard, the main street that is going
north and south. And in there, all the Japanese bodies was in there. And then oh, I will tell you, I
had to jump out of that thing. They scared the heck out of me. You know, all these dead bodies.
That’s one of the exciting things that at that time I remember. After that, you know, when all this
yelling start, everything was fine for what, you know…The water likes to—the water was the
one that…And the U.S. soldiers stationed some water bottles in that area and I was able to use
the can that—after I cleaned it up, I was able to use it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So now, once the excitement is over, now do you go back to going
to school regularly? Or what happens?
Veteran: Yeah, I went back to school. As a matter of fact, I went back to school and one of the
GI’s dropped a wallet. I don’t know who that GI is, and I never know who it belongs to. And
there’s some money that—really lots of money. Probably at least a couple hundred: $200-$300,
you know? I don’t know how much is in there. And being a young kid, honest young kid, I gave
that wallet to my teacher. After, I say, I didn’t know whatever happened to it, you know. But I
�9
turned it in. I said that somebody dropped this. I said maybe by now who…And I never heard
anything more about that. You know…And I never truly paid much attention to it because it
didn’t matter to me at the time, you know. Yeah, I was able to do what I wanted to do on my
grandma’s money.
Interviewer: Right. (00:20:56)
Veteran: I wasn’t really that concerned about any of that.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, you—not too long after that, the Philippines become
independent. You have your own country and so forth. How did you wind up in the United
States military?
Veteran: Oh, okay. I was in medical school.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was a first year proper—see, you go to—in the Philippines, you go to undergraduate
school for 3 years.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then you go to medical school.
Interviewer: So, when did you start medical school?
Veteran: I started in October. It was at the very end. I needed two and a half years of
intermediate to go to medical school. October 1957.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I left in July of 1958.
�10
Interviewer: Okay. So, you only went for like one year or part of one year?
Veteran: I had one semester. First semester.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: And I was—I played varsity basketball for the school. I got picked by the coach, but
then after when I got with…I—you know, at that age, at that time, I have a very restless mind.
You know? And I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t—I wanted to play basketball, I wanted to be a
doctor, I wanted…So, I decided well, maybe I will—I wanted to be in the Navy. I started
applying to the Navy actually in 1953, when I was in high school. (00:22:25)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But that didn’t—that disappeared from my mind for a while, but then I wanted—after
that, when I was in medical school, I said, “Well, maybe I could go ahead and apply for…”
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, had you gone to college already before medical school?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I had two and a half years of pre-med.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know?
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: And that’s what I used later on with the Navy.
�11
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Anyway, some of the people—I was given—they get—university, Southern Illinois
University gave me credit for some of it and finally got—I started college in 1955 and finally got
my bachelor’s in hospital administration in 1978.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But you went to school in the Philippines first. And so, you did
some pre-med there and then you at least started medical school. So, why did you leave
medical school? Were you just restless?
Veteran: To join the Navy.
Interviewer: Just—okay. Now, so was the United States Navy actively recruiting in the
Philippines?
Veteran: No, they have rumors that they are accepting people that live by that area that they
come to the city in. You know, it’s in the province. It’s only people that live in the province, and
they talk about this. So, while I was going to school, I have some classmates that were from that
area. So, I said, “Well, maybe I’ll write the letter.” So, I wrote the letter in I think maybe around
October of ’57.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I got the response in December saying that I need to get a physical. Yeah, they
accepted me.
Interviewer: Alright. So, where did you go to get a physical?
Veteran: At the Sangley Point.
Interviewer: Okay. So, there was an American base there?
�12
Veteran: Yeah, that’s where the biggest base that they went…That was the biggest base that
the—Navy base in the Far East.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. I guess the Americans talk about Subic Bay? Is that where—
(00:24:16)
Veteran: What? No—that’s one of them.
Interviewer: Okay. But this was bigger?
Veteran: This—yeah, Subic Bay is the biggest. Sangley Point is more an auxiliary. It’s a dry
dock. They use this at…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, there’s an American base there so you are able to go there,
you get your physical. Now what happens?
Veteran: When I went there for the—I think sometime in March. I stopped—I didn’t register for
the second semester.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I didn’t register because I didn’t know whether I was going to be there or not, you
know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, I didn’t register. So, some—March of ’78, I—
Interviewer: Or ’58.
�13
Veteran: Oh, ’58. March of ’58 I went to—for the physical. And they said, “Well, we will let you
know.” You know, I went back home. And not long after that, I got a letter that said you are
accepted to the Navy.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And you have to report July 25th.
Interviewer: Alright, now did they train you in the Philippines? Or did they send you to the
United States for training?
Veteran: They just took us there. They put out—just the busy work type thing. And on August
4th, they got—we were one of the groups that didn’t fly to the U.S. We were put in a—are you
familiar with the U.S. military transportation service? Military MSCs? Are you familiar with it?
It’s a ship like lots of other ships…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: …that are owned by the Navy that ferry the dependents of soldiers back and forth.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:26:05)
Veteran: To the U.S.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Now, well—we were the…I don’t know if we were the first group, but we were the
group—one of the group—that boarded that ship from Sandy Point to the U.S. And we were at
sea for 17 days, you know. Now, maybe not 17 days. Almost 4 to 15 days.
Interviewer: Okay.
�14
Veteran: 15 days. We were—but as a recruit, we couldn’t get out of the ship. So, they stopped in
Hawaii, they stopped in Guam; we were stuck in the boat.
Interviewer: Well, they wouldn’t let you off. Okay. Now, was it a good—was the weather
good on the voyage or did you have storms?
Veteran: I got seasick. I got seasick and then I didn’t know at the time that I was seasick. I didn’t
know at the time I was seasick; you know. But the feeling…I was sweating. I was cleaning the
stairwell. “Damn,” I said, you know. And I didn’t find out that I was seasick until I was already
onboard the ship. Years later.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, where did you land in the U.S.?
Veteran: We landed in San Francisco.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: At Fort Mason.
Interviewer: Alright. And then what did they do with you after that?
Veteran: Nothing. We were just in a temporary holding.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And this was 0017 when we landed there. Then we flew out of San Francisco August
21st.
Interviewer: And where did you fly to?
Veteran: To San Diego; that’s where the bootcamp was.
Interviewer: Alright.
�15
Veteran: So, now at bootcamp, we would—we were low priority as a recruit. But the priority of
the other recruits were higher than us because at the time, Great Lakes was closed, the New York
Recruit Center was closed. And the only open training center was San Diego. So, the people
coming from this area were—had the priority with getting into the training right away.
Interviewer: So, you were kind of just waiting to be able to start? (00:28:14)
Veteran: And from August 21st, I didn’t get into a company until September, September 21st;
almost a month.
Interviewer: Okay. So, where—
Veteran: But we were just there doing busywork for that time, you know.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you together as a group of Filipinos who were going to
train together? Or were they going to—
Veteran: We…No, they separated all of us.
Interviewer: Okay, so they didn’t—they put you in other companies.
Veteran: Yeah. But there was maybe a couple, 2 or 3, in one company, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They separated us.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what was bootcamp like for you, once you started the training?
Veteran: I’ll tell you, I wanted to get the shirts. I wanted to get discharged when I was in
bootcamp. I got really—we got into a lot of fights just to get discharged. You know, we’d pick a
fight, so we’d get discharged. But no luck; we didn’t get discharged, you know. So, I figured
�16
damn, I gave up a good life for this? You know. And I finished but see, I don’t know if you are
aware that when the Filipinos are recruited, they are only recruited to be a steward. Are you
aware of that?
Interviewer: I wasn’t. I knew that that was true for a long time with the black sailors and
then that stopped. But yeah, I knew that they did use Filipinos as stewards, but that was
the only job you could have at that time?
Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, and when you are in, you can change rate.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: If you are good enough for the—if you have a good officer that will—a more
humanitarian type officer. You know, but then you got some of these officer that thinks that they
own the world, you know, they own you. You know? (00:30:10)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And so, I started…I went to steward school, you know. After bootcamp I went to
steward school. And one day they had us fill out a transfer sheet—a drill sheet—there was an
aircraft carrier that’s going to the WESTPAC of the USS Shangri-La. And I put all my requests
on that ship. I wanted to go back there. They sent me to Annapolis, Maryland.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, tell me a little bit about life in bootcamp. I mean, why—what
made bootcamp bad for you?
�17
Veteran: The discipline. Discipline. See, I was never really big on discipline, you know. I
became a little bit disciplinarian, you know, maybe because of what I learned. You know?
Interviewer: But I guess you grew up kind of on your own?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: You were just kind of out in the streets doing what you wanted.
Veteran: I actually…Yeah, because I never worked while I was back home. I never really…I
was, you know, in school. But see now one of the reasons I stayed in school is because…I still
stayed in school because my grandparents supported me. They gave me—they allow me to—
anything that I need. And maybe some once, you know…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And if I leave school, I don’t know what they would have done.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, were you able to do all the physical stuff? The physical
training and those things?
Veteran: Oh yeah. There’s no problem there. You know, we are, you know, we are really
good…As a matter of fact, our company won some competitions that we were sent on a—
whoever win that week, they go on a picnic, you know? And that—we went maybe 3 or 4 times.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, talk a little bit about the steward school. What did you actually
learn in steward school? (00:32:15)
Veteran: Are you familiar with what the waiters do?
Interviewer: You should explain that because a lot of people might not have any idea.
�18
Veteran: Okay. Yeah. Well, the steward school was geared to train the Filipinos to serve with
high level people. It’s not just being a steward: everything that you do is by the book. You know,
like you pass your meat on the left, put your plate on the right. All this. You set all of the—they
teach you how to cook, just in case you have to cook for the officers. And mostly cooking and
serving, you know.
Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you spend in the steward school?
Veteran: Steward school? I don’t…I am not sure now. I don’t know if it’s…Of course, I got
transferred. I started in November and I got transferred in December. So, maybe about 6—4 to 6
weeks, maybe.
Interviewer: Okay. So not too long. Alright.
Veteran: Not too long.
Interviewer: And then you got transferred?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So where—what did you get transferred to?
Veteran: To a Naval Academy as a steward.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Have you ever seen the Naval Academy mess hall?
Interviewer: No.
Veteran: They seat about 5000 people.
Interviewer: Wow.
�19
Veteran: You’ve got all these Filipino stewards serving all of these midshipmen.
Interviewer: Alright. So, how long did you do that?
Veteran: Oh…From January ’59 to January ’61.
Interviewer: Okay, so 2 years.
Veteran: And I was transferred to a ship by that time.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, when you were working at the Naval Academy, were you living
on the base? (00:34:15)
Veteran: No. I—well, I lived at the APL. There’s a—we don’t have a barracks there. They have
a floating ship. I live on the APL.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, I live on the APL.
Interviewer: Onboard a ship.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. And did they have all of the stewards living together?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah. That thing is really something else. That ship doesn’t have an engine.
It’s a floating barracks. It’s a floating barracks, you know. Just a…
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Now, and do you have any particular memories of what it was
like to work at the Naval Academy? When you think of that time, what do you think
about?
�20
Veteran: Oh, the Naval Academy is probably…I would have liked to have seen one of my kids
or even my grandkids—he almost went, you know, went there. I would have liked—I liked the
academy. I liked the way the midshipmen live, you know, the way they were…It’s hard life.
Okay? It’s a hard life, but it’s not all work. There’s lots of fun times at the…it’s really…I don’t
know how to explain it, but it’s really good.
Interviewer: Alright. So, were you treated well by the petty officers?
Veteran: No. No. No, they are not—well, they…I used to get in trouble almost every day
because of that, you know. I had some guys, you know, remember now coming off the 2nd World
War, okay? Some of these people couldn’t even read and write. And some of these are your boss.
What do you expect from those kind of people?
Interviewer: So, some of the petty officers in the Navy who were supervising you were like
that?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was always in trouble almost every day. I was almost—I went extra duties.
Scrubbing all of that wall, all of the marks out of the wall every day. You know? And but I still
wanted to get out at the time, you know. But then, you know, you do something stupid, you
know. You do something stupid here, they keep me in longer.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you—but you do that for 2 years, and now you are
transferred to a ship. (00:36:37)
�21
Veteran: Now I got transferred in January. I went to the commissioning school at Rhode Island
because the ship was a brand-new ship.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, they had to send you all to learn all of this thing. And we…I was in Rhode Island
from January until June maybe?
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we went aboard the ship.
Interviewer: And what ship was this?
Veteran: USS Sampson, DDG-10. A guided missile destroyer.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The ship, it’s new at that time. I don’t think they ever—it took them a long time to get it
really working. And it was funny: when we were moving our training group in Cuba when we
were doing the briefing…You know, they fire all these missiles. They got the pre-training people
observers. And part of the missile comes back to the ship. It really is funny. You know, and
but…it ended well. We had a…we had some officers that—well, I was okay, fine, with the
officers that we had there. And it was, you know…That’s where the—I started working on trying
to get out of the stewardry because at that point, I said, “I really don’t want to be a steward.” You
know?
Interviewer: Right. And did any—were any of the officers on that destroyer?
Veteran: Not one. Not on that one, no. But it wasn’t long I was there before it was, after it was
commissioned, because I went back on release with leave in ’62, in June of ’62. So, it—before
�22
June that it was commissioned. Or immediately. And I got to—when I went to the Philippines,
when I came back, I went back to Boston. We were in Boston at the time.
Interviewer: Right. (00:38:47)
Veteran: I went back to Boston and they put me on the USS Johnston. It’s the DD-821.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was that just a regular destroyer or…?
Veteran: Yeah, regular destroyer.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: An older destroyer, 821. And that’s where I started to get, you know…When I got back,
we were drinking and all these things you know. Some of the officers are just a redneck, you
know. Just really really…you know. And we were—the ship was on leave of FRAM job. Have
you ever heard of the term FRAM? It’s Fleet Rehabilitation and Modernization program.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They—so, we were living in a barracks there because we worked on the ships during
the day, taking all the asbestos thing out and replacing it with, I don’t know, whatever they
replace it with.
Interviewer: Okay. And where were you based? Was this in Boston or somewhere else?
Veteran: In Boston.
Interviewer: Still in Boston, okay.
�23
Veteran: Boston. And we were there…oh, from the time I came there in June or July. I was in the
Philippines for a month. July to maybe sometime in October. Because we pull out to go on the
Cuban Missile Crisis blockade.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:40:15)
Veteran: That’s where we pulled out of. But in the meantime, I was in trouble there. I was
AWOL when the people pulled out. I was AWOL for 4 days, you know, and…But I had no
intention of leaving. I wasn’t—I know I had a pending court martial. If I go back, they will—I
know I will be disciplined. Not the court marital—Captain’s Mast.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It’s just a minor thing at the time.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, and if I go back, I know that I was going to be disciplined, so I decided I
will stay 4 days before we leave. I will stay out, you know, and then go back with all my
belongings at that time, because we weren’t going to end up going back to Boston. We were
going to Charleston for after—from there—from Charleston to Cuba. You know, it’s October
now.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you—the idea is you get back on the ship and they don’t have time
to deal with you, so you just get back onboard and sail with them?
Veteran: Oh, which one?
Interviewer: Well, you said you had talked—you went AWOL. You stayed off the ship for
a while.
�24
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, was that to avoid punishment?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, because I knew—I figured I was going to be punished. And I figured if I go back
and they put me under citation, we will be at sea. So, I won’t be under—able to get—
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Anyway, but that trouble just keep going, following me wherever at that point, you
know. And everywhere. And when we went to Cuba, by the time we got to Cuba—see the
blockade started October…25th, I think. But we were in Charleston with them still not
sure…Maybe they are not sure about the fitness of the ship at the time because we just got out of
the yards. (00:42:10)
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: So, when they finally decided, we went there…I don’t know, a couple of days to get
there. It was December 6th when we got to Cuba, and we started the blockade at that point. And
not long after that, that’s when they boarded the Russian trawlers, not long after that. Not our
ship, but we ended up…we ended up saving a Puerto Rican refrigeration ship. That one, we
were…all of us couldn’t even go in our bunk. But then—we were not allowed to stay in our bed
because we were trying to get all the water out of that ship. We were sleeping on the deck, you
know. And if we are not there, we go down to the battle station, you know. So, we couldn’t
sleep. And it was really rough. It was hard. It was really hard.
�25
Interviewer: Okay. You have met now the peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis. It’s October
1962. That’s when the final—the sort of the showdown happens and they…
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: And it ends. But it was building up a long time before that.
Veteran: Oh yeah. I didn’t know—I was unaware of that until Kennedy went on TV.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I was able at that time—when that television thing came out.
Interviewer: Now, you said…So, basically, you are down there after that. Or were you—
Veteran: No, I was still in Boston. We were still in Boston.
Interviewer: Well, there was a lot of back and forth about what the Russians were doing in
Cuba. And we were sending ships down to a blockade before October. So…
Veteran: The whole flotilla went in there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Around…in October. And our group joined this flotilla in December.
Interviewer: Okay. But there was still a blockade going on around Cuba at that time?
Veteran: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you told me before we started the interview that you thought that
your service during the Cuban Missile Crisis, or that period, was sort of the scariest that
you have had. (00:44:23)
�26
Veteran: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Why was it scary?
Veteran: Well, it…if it went down, none of us would be talking today. And every—sailorsthat
were there, I bet you, you know, feel the same way.
Interviewer: So, you were worried this might really be World War 3, or something like
that?
Veteran: Yeah…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, by this time—at what point are you able to get out of
being a steward?
Veteran: Sure. Okay. When we came back from Cuba…When we came back from Cuba, I had a
gallon of different style type of whiskey. And at night, one of the—first night, I think I finished
one of that whiskey. And the chopper took me back to the ship. And this officer—he threatened
me, you know. And I got—in the meantime, I was getting mad. I was getting really mad.
Eventually, I hit the guy. I hit the—after I chased him all over the ship. He went down to the
engine room to get away from me. I hit the guy, you know, after the incident. And that one, I
went to court martial. I was court martialed. They sent me to the brig for 20 days.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And so, that’s when I—when I went in there, I said, “I don’t want to be a steward
anymore. Either you discharge me now,” I said, “or you change rate.” And the XO—he’s from
Milwaukee or used to be from Milwaukee…He used to see me almost every day in front of him
for a hearing, you know. He came to me; I said—I came to him and I said, “I want to be a
�27
hospital corpsman.” I said, “If I can’t be a hospital corpsman, then give me a BCD, whatever.” I
said, “Send me back home.” (00:46:33)
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay, so you say this and what kind of response did you get?
Veteran: He said, “Okay.” He said, “I will give you 6 months. If I don’t see you in front of me
for the next 6 months,” he said, “I will write to the bureau.” Six months? Boy, that’s a long time,
you know. I said, “Okay. You’ve got a deal.” So, we went to the Med that August, you know.
Interviewer: To the Mediterranean?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: We went on a Med cruise. And wow, I was really…Even then, you know, almost had
that—seen him, you know. But we went to the Med and I was clean all that time I was in the
Med.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I…comes—it was a—I don’t remember. It was 6 months later. It was October. The 6
months was October. So, I went to him. I said, “You know, the 6 months is up.” I said, “I have
been good to you.” I said, “You promised to write the bureau.” He said, “Oh yeah, I did.” And
so, he called the yeoman and the yeoman sent a letter. And the approval came in December.
Came and said that I was going to corps school in February or March of ’63.
Interviewer: Okay. And so, where was corps school? (00:48:09)
Veteran: At Great Lakes.
�28
Interviewer: Okay. So, now you go to Great Lakes, Illinois. Alright. And what was corps
school like? What did you learn there?
Veteran: A lot. A lot. Things that I, you know, that I never…See, when I was going to school, I
was a goofball. I was already skipping classes and all that thing. So, I did really—I hate reading,
for one thing. I hate to read. And I read more books than I had ever seen. I read in school in the
Philippines and I went to—when I changed rate. And I learned first aid, anatomy and physiology.
I had a good review of nephrology. And the math, you know. Things like that. And I did learn a
lot in the school.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you were able to get through that training course?
Veteran: I…Yeah, I finished 3rd in the class of 39 or something.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I was promoted right from school to 3rd class.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: So, I…I got stationed at Great Lakes for the hospital.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It was my best duty station in all my time in the service.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what were you doing at that assignment?
Veteran: Initially, I was like an LPN only better than an LPN. We have more training. The only
thing I can’t do—I was doing all the job of the RN—and the only thing I can’t do is to pass
�29
narcotics. And as far as knowledge, I think our knowledge—the RN’s knowledge and a hospital
corpsman’s knowledge almost on par.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:50:11)
Veteran: Depending on the person, though, okay. If a person is really dedicated to what he is
doing and decides to pursue really more…he can be farther than an RN. You know? And as a
matter of fact, some of the RNs—corpsmen became an RN, you know. And some of the
corpsman—the first PA that…You know about PA, right?
Interviewer: Are we talking about—
Veteran: Physician assistant?
Interviewer: Yes.
Veteran: The first 6 were the corpsmen. That started at Duke.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, you are getting a pretty good medical training there at this
point.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, how long did you stay at Great Lakes?
Veteran: Well, I was at Great Lakes from ’63…I graduated in July of ’63. That’s schooling.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I graduated July of ’63 and got stationed at the hospital. Then I went to lab assistant
school and they transferred me to building 109. This is still at Great Lakes. I don’t remember the
month now.
�30
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But then in June of ’63…Oh, not ’63. June of ‘’65.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was out in ’65.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: In June of ’65…Maybe I bet you…They send me to—I was…Yeah, that’s right. June
of ‘65 I went to lab assistant school. And then right after that—this is about 8 weeks course—I
went to the building 109 as a lab assistant, doing regular laboratory work, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, and from there I ran into another SOB, an officer, but I didn’t rebel against
this guy. Eventually, I would have—I rebelled against this guy because, at the time, when he
decided…Oh no, the Navy had me to stay ashore until ’66. You know? But this guy decided
well, you’re not a Marine force corpsman, so you’re going to go to school in the Marine force.
So, they send me to Camp Lejeune to train as an emergency medical technician. Like I knew
better than an emergency medical technician—
Interviewer: Okay. (00:52:52)
Veteran: You know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, they send me there out on temporary provisional duty. Then I came back to
work in the lab again.
�31
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But I know it was a matter of time before they were sending me to Vietnam.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: At the time, she was expecting our oldest son.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I asked him if I could go on leave if she delivers. And he said I had to take this guy
to request a Captain’s Mast—to take this guy to see the captain. And they again, you know, they
allowed me to go see—the chief called me, and he said, “If your wife delivers, give me a call, let
me know.”
Interviewer: Alright. So, when you went to Camp Lejeune, were you doing what was
basically combat training? Or combat medic training?
Veteran: They have a 50-caliber set on the ground and you are crawling underneath electric live
round. That’s how you train.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did they also give you a lot of physical training there? Did you
have to be basically—you have to be like a Marine?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I got to—I have a Marine uniform. See, a back up Marine
uniform. I have a Navy uniform too. I have 2 or 3.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, how—now you were getting close to 30 years old at this point.
Veteran: I was 30 years old.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�32
Veteran: When I went to Vietnam, I was 30 years old. I made—no, I was 29. I swear I turned 30
right at Hill 400, starving to death.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: If we were not resupplied.
Interviewer: So, at this point, were you older than most of the corpsmen getting sent to
Vietnam? (00:54:27)
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, along the way, I mean at least among your…I guess, among
your corpsmen, once you are at Great Lakes and you are working there and training there,
now you are out at Camp Lejeune. Did people give you trouble because you were Filipino?
Or did they accept you?
Veteran: No. No, because I—you know, like I say, I was a rebel and all that. And I—if you fight
them back, they leave you alone.
Interviewer: Okay, so they respect you.
Veteran: Yeah. You know, they leave you alone most of what—yeah, I probably am one of the
few Filipinos that you’ll hear that never gave any discrimination. Because I don’t—I never felt
that I was discriminated by anyone. Aboard the ship, maybe. During the time that I was trying to
become a corpsman.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I asked a chaplain to help me. Okay…He talked to the executive officer. The executive
officer I think was from Tennessee or somewhere in the south. Georgia? And the response he got
�33
from that— “Oh no, I can’t let him go. Nobody is going to cook for us. Nobody is going to serve
us.”
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know? But I didn’t even think that as discrimination at this point, because he’s got
a point. That was, I—that was what I was sent there for.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. Alright. But in the meantime, now you have trained. Now, were
there—was the training that you got at Camp Lejeune, did that turn out to be useful for
you?
Veteran: In medicine, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. But at Camp Lejeune, you were—
Veteran: In the—in Vietnam, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. So, you do the training, you go back to Great Lakes again, and then
you get orders for Vietnam after that? (00:56:13)
Veteran: Yeah. I went to Vietnam in October 6th. I got there…
Interviewer: Okay. Now how did they get you to Vietnam?
Veteran: By plane. They took us with a plane—on a plane.
Interviewer: Okay.
�34
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Now, was it a military plane or a chartered civilian plane? Were there regular
seats and stuff in it?
Veteran: From Travis Air Force Base, we were on a civilian plane.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And then from Okinawa to Vietnam, we were on a C-130? I think a C-130.
Interviewer: Okay. And where did you land in Vietnam?
Veteran: In Da Nang.
Interviewer: Okay, you landed in Da Nang. And what’s your first impression of Vietnam
when you get there?
Veteran: I was afraid. I was in—I was in—that’s one of my conclusions too: people—the
corpsmen that got killed there most of the time just got there. And that…When you are afraid,
you are not able to think right. Okay, or if you are excited, you are not able to think right either.
You know? And when I—the first time I was on a battle sweep on the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
Interviewer: Okay. But let’s—before we get into that story…Okay, you arrive at Da Nang
and then what did they do with you once you get there?
Veteran: They assign me to the battalion.
Interviewer: Okay, and what battalion do they assign you to?
Veteran: 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines.
Interviewer: Okay. 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines. Now that—the 3rd Marine Division?
�35
Veteran: The 3rd Marine Division.
Interviewer: Alright. And where was that battalion operating from?
Veteran: In I Corps.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: That’s up north.
Interviewer: Yeah, the northern part of South Vietnam. Were you near any particular
towns or bases that were—
Veteran: Yeah, we were at…We were at Dong Ha.
Interviewer: Dong Ha. Okay.
Veteran: Dong Ha. We were at Dong Ha. And that’s where the—no, wait a minute…It was—we
went to Dong Ha. No, maybe we were in—I don’t know? Maybe we were in Phu Bai because
when—as soon as I get assigned with 2-9, they went on a sweep right away.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so they are going on a sweep and you are going along with
them. Now, what was your job with that battalion? Were you in the battalion aid station?
(00:58:27)
Veteran: I was at the battalion aid station. I was a general corpsman.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know…
Interviewer: Alright. And you say the battalion goes on a sweep. What was a sweep?
�36
Veteran: Hmm?
Interviewer: Explain what a sweep was.
Veteran: A sweep is—you go out on patrol where you expected the enemies to be. And you
counted them. That’s how all those—have you ever heard of Operation Prairie?
Interviewer: Mhmm.
Veteran: I was out—we caught the tail end of Operation Prairie. But they were starting there
already at the time. Well, that’s how they find that: on a sweep. The recon company—the recon
squad—found that on a reconnaissance. And then they send somebody to sweep that area to look
around and found that unit, that…
Interviewer: Right. I guess usually they try to have the companies work together to push
the enemy together and capture them.
Veteran: Yeah. The whole company is spread out. You know, if you—I don’t know if you are
familiar, you know, the instructions to us is you are supposed to spread out 15 meters apart on a
sweep.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: Okay, and so you figure—picture it in your mind: a whole hun—let’s see…We have 1
company. We have over 1000 people in the battalion.
Interviewer: Battalion, yep.
Veteran: Picture that in your mind: 1000 people at 15 meters apart. That’s a long…Probably all
the way to Chicago.
�37
Interviewer: Well, they are not all in one line. Some of them are in the back. There’s some
people in reserve or support, but yeah. But it’s still a long—a long line of men.
Veteran: Right. By the 4th platoon in that, you know…
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, you have got a hundred and some men maybe in the company
and there are only— (01:00:12)
Veteran: 200 maybe?
Interviewer: Yep. Sometimes. A lot of times companies were smaller. But anyway, you are
out there, you are in the field. So, did anything happen during that sweep? Did...
Veteran: We got ambushed the first time.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, at the Ho Chi Minh Trail. And I didn’t see the fighting. I was initially—we
don’t really go into any until somebody call for corpsman.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know. And we took—6 of the Marines were killed right way. And I was sitting
down at the bottom of this hill with—next to the chaplain. And I woke up in the morning to this
Marine cutting the head of this Vietnamese that they killed. They are cutting the head, you know.
And that—after they cut the head, they took the head out and put it in the bamboo stake on the
bridge.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know, and it’s gross.
�38
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: It’s gross. So, yeah…
Interviewer: How quickly did you start treating casualties?
Veteran: Hmm?
Interviewer: Were you treating casualties right away?
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: As soon as they called in, you know, we would take them out. If they were dead, you
know, we helped bag them. You know? But if they are still alive, then we—whatever injury they
have, we have to take care. The first thing, the important thing, is stop the bleeding is the main
thing.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. But you are at this point, you are working at the aid station, so
the casualties are coming to you?
Veteran: Well, no, we—the company is a battalion, so on a sweep all the battalion, all of the
men, are out there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, we are out along with them.
Interviewer: You are out there with them? Okay. And were you divided up among the
companies to support all of them? (01:02:06)
�39
Veteran: Well, the companies are assigned 2 per platoon, so you got, you know, 6 different
corpsmen, 2 per platoon. They were—those are the ones that are actually right at the fight, you
know. Now, the battalion aid travels with the colonel.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I traveled with the colonel.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, whatever it—that could be the same—the admin group get hit, we are the one that’s
going to be taking care of it.
Interviewer: Right. That’s kind of what I was asking. So, you are sort of staying with—you
are at the battalion aid station to begin with, so you kind of follow the colonel when they
move the headquarters, so you are not up at the very front.
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: At that point.
Veteran: No, we are not at the front. We are not in the front.
Interviewer: Alright. Now how long did you stay with the battalion aid station?
Veteran: I was to go—supposed to go—to relieve some corpsman. I was second class at the time.
And as a second class, your assignments are senior corpsman, in charge of the other 6.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I was supposed to relieve a second class…either middle of January or February.
But I ended up taking the company ahead, you know. Before that—okay, on that sweep that
�40
we…I was so scared. At the time, I will tell you, I was really scared. And I was seeing ghosts. I
was seeing monster coming out of the mountain, you know. This really scared me. Well, after we
got back to the rear—this was in October, okay. I wrote a letter to the Bureau of Naval
Personnel. I wanted out of there because you have no business sending me here. I am the sole
surviving son of my father, I said. They already have that law.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yep. (01:04:22)
Veteran: I said, “I want to get out of here. I want to come back.” Okay, in the meantime, life
goes on. I have to do whatever I was assigned to do, okay, as I am doing that. And I kind of got
adjusted to it.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, I got used to the idea of being there. The response from the Bureau came in
December. By that time, I said, “I don’t want to go back anymore.” You know? Because at that
point, the chief called me. He said, “You want to go back? Think it over,” he said, “because if
you want to stay in the service, they may not let you stay here anymore.” You know. But then I
started thinking. I said, “You know, if I go out, I am chicken. You know, I don’t know if I can
live with myself doing that.” You know? It’s not a matter of staying in this military, you know,
it’s just myself, my personal…I said, “A coward, you know? If I left.” I said, “No, I don’t think I
want to have that on my mind.”
Interviewer: Alright. Okay.
Veteran: So, I turned it down. I turned it down. I said, “No, I am not going back.” And instead,
one of the guys that came to me was offering me $150 to take the company because he was
getting scared too. He was getting scared. And at the time there, he’s got a family problem in the
�41
states. His house burned down in Norfolk. And so, he got to see the spine. And those are the
guys that get killed. And I feel sorry for the guy. He was giving me $150 to take his company
area.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so now—
Veteran: So, I said, “I don’t need your money.” I said, “I will take your company.” This
happened in January already. “I’ll take your company.” No, the 1st of January…
Interviewer: Okay. (01:06:12)
Veteran: I do. I did, I took the company at the 1st of January.
Interviewer: Alright. And so, you are there with that company then.
Veteran: That whole company too.
Interviewer: Until October of ’67, when you go—
Veteran: Until…Not October. Until 6 month, July? July maybe. Late July.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But now you are—you have got to this time. There are 6
months sort of in the field with a line company. And what was that job like? What were
you doing during those 6 months?
Veteran: That’s where I patched a whole bunch of guys that they were—wherever they got. I had
to make—I had to—it was up to me to make the decision to medevac. I have to make that
decision. Like, we got ambushed. Two of the guys got hit. We have to be at a certain point at
noon. And on top of that, what time it was…and we were really pushed for time. The captain
asked me—he said, “Doc,” he said, “take a look at this guy to know if we need to medevac
them.” But we have to be at this point. We don’t—I don’t know where they are going to assign
�42
us. This time, this one we know got to be there as a perimeter guard. You know, and so, I went in
there, look at the guys. The guy’s got a leg wound, and the other was an arm wound. But it’s not
critical. And I didn’t want them to carry any—I didn’t want them to carry any backpack or
anything. I want them a walking stick. Based on what I know at the time, a walking stick would
help them ambulate back.
Interviewer: Right. (01:08:04)
Veteran: So, I told the captain, I said, “Give me a fire team. Go ahead and go. I will stay with the
guys, just the two guys, and we will be behind. So, that’s 4 of us going into this…” You know,
and the captain said, “Okay. You have got the Marines that can carry their backpack.” And I got
the 4 guys and the 2 wounded and myself. So, it’s a long walk; really long. But I didn’t know
how far we were at the time. And they got to that point. They made their appointment there.
Their…Oh, whatever I was looking for. They got their appointment there that…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, by the time I got…We were so far away. We were so far away that they had to send
a Jeep. They had to send a Jeep to pick us up. So, I got ready. I got a ride on the Jeep to go back.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, at least there was enough of a road or a trail that you could take
a Jeep down it.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright.
�43
Veteran: And we got…As it turned out, it was a good decision that I made because had we
missed that appointment, we would have been sent to Hill 881 and 882. That’s one of the big
fights.
Interviewer: Okay. And those are the ones—
Veteran: That we—2 corpsmen got killed in there.
Interviewer: Was that near Khe Sanh? Was that the…
Veteran: Which one?
Interviewer: Was that near Khe Sanh? Those hills.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You said Khe Sanh. We were at Khe Sanh at the time.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: We were at Khe Sanh; 881 and 882. And because of the decision that I made, we were
able to be—the captain would have sent us there. And we would have missed it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Because at that day, I am the only one that’s available. They sent out Echo Company to
that place.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, your battalion was the one—was at Khe Sanh in late 19—
(01:10:15)
�44
Veteran: They were in—I think—
Interviewer: In the middle of ’67?
Veteran: That was in ’67.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I think…I think the battalion was…maybe we were in Phu Bai already. We were in Phu
Bai already. The battalion was in Phu Bai and we were spread out with the going around.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we were going—that was where the sweep come in. We were going on a sweep
every day. We were going on a sweep.
Interviewer: Alright. And what kinds of casualties were you taking in this period? Were
you losing a lot of men?
Veteran: No. No, we were just sporadic fire. You know, an ambush here and there. And there are
times that I was at the ambush. That’s why I couldn’t rest because I was so tired at the, you
know… And I—there was a—one area where we were ambushed. And the call got up all the
way to me. Normally, that doesn’t—that’s not supposed to happen. The corpsmen in the front are
the ones. But the corpsmen in the front got scared. They didn’t run to the casualty. So, I ended up
doing the—it was an arm wound and a neck wound. But I stopped the bleeding and, you know,
had…When I came back, I talked to the 2 guys. They were scared. They were young kids, 18year-old kids. And the captain was really mad. You know, the captain was really mad. I said,
“No,” I said, “don’t.” He wanted me to punish these guys. “No,” I said. “Don’t. It’s—no big deal
happened so,” I said, “we are lucky that nothing happened.”
�45
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Nothing happened. I said, “Let go.” I said, “I’ll talk to them and make sure this doesn’t
happen again.” And let me tell you, they turned out to be two of the best corpsmen that I had in
that company later on as they learned. But one of the ambush that we had, that we got—one of
the corpsman was so scared, he and another guy—when I called for a medevac—they jump on
the chopper with the casualties.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:12:25)
Veteran: And you know what I did to those two guys?
Interviewer: What?
Veteran: When they came back, I sent them all out on all the patrols that this platoon was—I sent
them all out. You should—I told them, I said, “You exposed those people to additional danger
that they should not have. You go in there and take your chances.”
Interviewer: Alright. And now, over the course of the time that you spent with that
company, did you have any close calls yourself? I mean, did you get hit or nearly so?
Veteran: Well, we were at Gio Linh, right at the Freedom Bridge. This is sort of North Vietnam.
A rocket was—I don’t know, maybe it was just a mortar. It landed right around our bunker. And
when we jumped into the bunker, I got hit on the knee with the shrapnel. I got hit on the knee.
The other two corpsmen got there ahead of me. They were faster than I am. I got hit on the knee.
And…You know, they stitch—I went to the BAS, at the battalion aid station and the corpsmen
over there stitched me up. Eight stitches on my knee. It was sent in report to Washington. That’s
how I got the Purple Heart. I didn’t even want that Purple Heart at the time because I don’t
�46
need—I didn’t get hurt bad, you know. That’s just nothing—that’s nothing, you know? But
because I did—because of their reporting, Washington was obligated to...
Interviewer: Yep. (01:14:01)
Veteran: You know? This captain that I was with—okay, I will get to that. Along this—while I
was in this company, we hit a battalion base camp of the North Vietnamese. Is that where it was?
I don’t remember where it was. It was pretty close to where the [untelligible] where our—right
around that area. Because we went over there too to that area. And there were North Vietnamese
in there, but we didn’t see any of them. But they were laying mines all over the place. We took—
I took maybe 21, 22, casualties and maybe ours were 22. Maybe I patch about 8 of them, you
know. The leg wound, you know.
Interviewer: Is that all from mines?
Veteran: All the mines. You know, some—not really that bad. But I was running all over that
field, not knowing—I wasn’t even thinking about the mine. I wasn’t even thinking about the
mine, I was just thinking of the patient, you know. I was just thinking of the patient that was
laying in there. And when we get back to our base camp, you know, where we were staying,
after—by the time, that time, we called in the tanks to, you know, they—we got there in the
morning and we left around at night. You know, we left right—and when we got back to the base
the following day, the captain wanted to put me up for Bronze Star. And I said, “No. I don’t
know, I don’t want the Bronze Star.” I said, “I didn’t get hurt. I did my job; that’s my job that I
was trained to do.”
Interviewer: Alright. Now, I need to take a break for just a moment. I will be right back.
(01:15:55)
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e696c7bbedbf0e099a8d064c93c7b27.mp3
27d9df77e24d246a5d95ad0b802abaa2
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_NazarioM2333V
Creator
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Nazario, Moises G
Date
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2019-08
Title
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Nazario, Moises (Interview transcript and audio, part 1), 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Moises Nazario was born in Manila, Philippines, on October 25th, 1936. He recalls his uncle fighting in World War II when he was as young as five years old, and he remembers when Manila was occupied by Japan. Once the Philippines gained independence, Nazario attended college and medical school before enlisting in the Navy in early 1958. He got his physical at an American base in the Philippines, Sangley Point, and was accepted a few months later after which he was shipped from Sandy Point to Fort Mason, San Francisco. In August 1958, he flew out of San Francisco to San Diego for basic training. He was assigned to a company in September. After basic training, he attended steward school where he was trained to cook and serve before being transferred to Naval Academy as a steward. He served as a steward from 1959 to 1961. After that, Nazario was transferred to the USS Sampson and attended commissioning school in Rhode Island. After five months on the USS Sampson, he went back to the Philippines on leave before going to Boston where he assigned to the USS Johnston. While on the USS Sampson, he traveled to Charleston and then Cuba for the Cuban Missile Crisis blockade in December 1962. After a Mediterranean cruise, he was sent to Great Lakes, Illinois for corps school. In July 1963, he graduated corps school and was stationed at the hospital in Great Lakes. In June 1965, Nazario was sent to lab assistant school, and he worked as a lab assistant in Great Lakes after finishing the 8-week course. After that, he was sent to Camp Lejeune to train as an emergency medical technician. After a brief return to the lab in Great Lakes, Nazario was flown to Vietnam in October 1966, landing in Da Nang. There, he was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines, 3rd Marine Division and served as a general corpsman at the battalion aid station. His battalion went on a “sweep,” or patrol to look for enemies, and it was his job to take care of casualties in the field. Nazario himself was injured when he got hit on the knee with shrapnel and got eight stitches on his knee at the battalion aid station.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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audio/mp3
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7f44ec977048fb668b2003ec615e376.mp4
6acb643cc6ada924a414eddadf96f089
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e972b3adb1cd5be457d83c410d38c494.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Christl, Roland
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Roland Christl
Length of Interview: (52:07)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Roland Christl of Richmond, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay now start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where
and when were you born?”
October 29th, 1924 Berrien Springs in the farm house that I stayed in till I retired.
Interviewer: “Alright and– Now born in the 1920s and of course the depression starts not
too long afterwards, did your family own that farm?” (00:39)
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay and you’re able to keep it through the depression?”
Oh yes, well that’s your livelihood you can raise about anything you need besides salt and
pepper.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t have– Some people got foreclosed on and that kind of
thing but you kind of made it through. How many children were in your family?”
There was four of us.
Interviewer: “And where were you in line?”
�Christl, Roland
I was the last born.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long did you go to school?”
I went through high school and graduated.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate from high school?”
1943.
Interviewer: “Okay, now do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?”
I didn’t know anything about Pearl Harbor, you know as a kid “What’s Pearl Harbor?” You
know, is it a harbor of the United States? You know I had no idea where Pearl Harbor was.
Interviewer: “Okay, but do you remember how you first heard the news? Okay, at what
point did you understand what it meant, a couple days later?” (1:50)
Sure, after you find out where Pearl Harbor was and what really actually happened.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when the war started did things change at all in your community
or with the people you knew?”
Well nothing that I know of because I’m like 15 years old, you know and you’re more interested
in what you’re doing than what the country’s doing really I think.
Interviewer: “Okay, now I mean did you have a radio, could you listen to news and
things?”
Oh sure we had a radio.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Now did you consider– Did you know a lot of people who started to enlist in
the military or get drafted?”
Well sure, most of the people that went to school see we had 35 in our class so you know
everybody pretty well, even in the other classes. Our neighbors, you know they had, oh I don’t
know, four or five boys I think, four of them went into the Air Force and learned how to fly. So
we knew all that.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have rationing?”
Sure we had rationing and things on the farm, you know you have your own butter, my mother
used to make butter and take it down to Herman’s grocery store and sell it to him, then he would
put it in saleable sizes and sell it to the people, and so farm is– When you live on a farm we had
meat stamps that would expire, people were upset when they saw those expired meat stamps
“What, you let those expire?” And they’re short on meat, they get a little bit every day.
Interviewer: “So what kind of stock did you have on your farm?” (3:57)
Well everything that we needed to support a family really, had chicken, we had cows, we had
horses and no tractors at that time. We did get a tractor in ‘39 it seemed like, or was it ‘41? I
think it was ‘39.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you had some animals and then what were you growing on
your farm?”
Well we grew mostly things for the livestock and then fruit, it was a big fruit area here and
mostly fruit. Anything from strawberry to– You know and you’re 15 you’re out there picking
every time something out there starts to develop, you’re out there working with it.
Interviewer: “Did you get an extra gas ration because you were running a farm?”
�Christl, Roland
My brother went into the service, he was drafted in ‘41– Or before ‘41, for a year, In a year– “In
a Year I’ll be Back, Darling” The song but soon as Pearl Harbor happened well then you’re in
there for the duration, but he had a model A Ford car and he left it to me. So we both– My dad
had a sticker– I think he had an A sticker but my tire size was sort of over sized, I could buy a
new tire, my dad could only buy a used tire.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you did reasonably well there, now did you only have one
brother?”
Two brothers.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what– Was the other brother younger than you or older–
Older he was older than you.”
Both older, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did he go in the service?” (5:43)
Well my eldest brother– I was four of, he got several– Two bad operations that disqualified him
and he became a dentist. My second brother was the one that was drafted for a year and he
became an officer and he was working in California install– Overseeing the installations of the
anti aircraft in California, making sure if the Japanese try to land they have to have something
over there to shoot with, and so after that expired– You know that threat expired, then he went to
France and became a major, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now as for you, did you have a deferment because you were working
on the farm?”
Oh absolutely, there were several boys that farmed and had deferments so I could’ve stayed out
but I decided well I’m gonna go in, see what happens, see what’s going on.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Okay, so was it you were just kind of curious at that point or?”
Well of course I knew what’s going on, we had friends and I was in the service and I said “Well
other than just loafing around, you know and–” I said, told the draftsperson, I said “I think I
wanna go in and see if I can be of any use in there– Out there.”
Interviewer: “Alright, so I’m sure they’re happy to take you at that point.”
Oh absolutely.
Interviewer: “Alright, so when did you enter the service then?”
Well– It’s right there, that was April 11th, 1945.
Interviewer: “Alright, and where did they send you for basic training?” (7:47)
Camp Robinson, Arkansas.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did they get you down there?”
More than likely by train I think.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you don’t remember much about the train ride?”
No, not the train ride.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what was Camp Robinson like?”
�Christl, Roland
Well it was the middle of summer and it was really hot and I was pretty fit, I played basketball in
school and I was pretty fit and working on the farm I was pretty able to do about anything and so
other than being hot and tiring it was endurable.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what about the discipline part, what was that like?”
Well nothing like you see in the movies or on the T.V that’s for sure, had no problem with that.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the drill sergeants were okay?”
Reasonable guys, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright now were you used to taking orders, I mean was that easy or hard to
do?”
Well it was pretty much a unit order, it wasn’t an individual order and I was squad leader so I
had a few benefits and– Like no KP.
Interviewer: “So how did you wind up a squad leader?” (9:20)
I guess I was tall, they put all the tall men in the front and the small guys in the back and we go
out to the rifle range, we’ll do six miles and the little guys had to run sometimes to keep up.
“Slow down, slow down!” Well we’re 2nd platoon, 1st platoon is already getting ahead of us,
we’re trying to keep up with them and the little guys in the back are hollering “Slow down!”
Interviewer: “Alright, how long did you spend at Camp Robinson?”
I think it was 11 week basic, a long basic, a long basic because I was training for a replacement
now. So I was trained in mostly all the hand weapons.
Interviewer: “So you’re expecting to be just a replacement infantryman at that point?”
�Christl, Roland
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and did you figure you were going to go to Japan?”
No, no I had no idea until I got to Fort Ord and I said “Well, must be going across the Pacific.”
Interviewer: “Okay, of course the war in Europe ended while you were in training.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Cause that’s in early May so Japan is about the only place left to keep
fighting. Okay, so you finish your 11 weeks, now by the time you finish that, let’s see had
Japan surrendered yet or were they just about to?”
Well they surrendered in–
Interviewer: “They surrendered in August.” (10:53)
August 15th.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so do you remember where you were then?”
I was still in the states I hope, they– We stayed there, I don’t know when we left Camp Robinson
but then we went down to Hampton, Alabama– I can’t remember the name there, then from there
we went to Fort Ord, California, we didn’t ship out there either cause now the war’s over and
they needed to figure out where to put these guys so they sent us up to– I think, Lewis–
Interviewer: “There’s Fort Lewis in Washington.”
�Christl, Roland
It was in Washington, and then we shipped out from there. One day while we were there they
had us file out and the officer came out and said “We need 1,000 volunteers.” Now what? What
do you think goes on in your mind “Are they gonna send 1,000 back home? Are they gonna keep
1,000 here?” And so we didn’t know until one of the fellows that lived in Eau Claire, which is
about five miles from Berrien Springs, but I knew he volunteered, so I didn’t know until I came
back and talked to him, they all went to Germany, took them all the way across the country, sent
him to Germany. Yeah, so we went and ended up in Japan.
Interviewer: “Okay, now how did they get you to Japan?”
On a troopship the–[unintelligible]? A troopship, forget the name of it though.
Interviewer: “Okay, now do you have a sense of how many men were on this ship?”
I think it was the General [unintelligible], I have no idea.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the ocean voyage like?” (13:03)
Well it was not too bad until we got out of Puget Sound then all– We said “Well this isn’t bad at
all.” You know, but we were still in Puget Sound, when we got out in the ocean then it started
rolling and then we got, I don’t know, maybe half way across and run into a storm. We were–
You look over the rail and the boat wasn’t going through the water, it was just practically
standstill because of the head winds I guess. So they called for a change of course and they went
south and you could see the boat going through the water. We got close to Japan, they spotted a
mine so everybody battle stations and they shot until they said “Stop shooting.” Yeah and a fella
who worked in the mess hall, a Navy personnel, and I got acquainted he was– And then there
was another friend who ran a 20 millimeter gun and then just kept shooting. We couldn’t see the
mine, they couldn’t either but they’re all shooting in that one direction and so it was kind of
interesting to see how they operate that. They got a barrel 20 millimeter and that’s a pretty good
size and they had an extra barrel and a container and I don’t know if this was water or what it is,
probably water, they shoot the canister, empty, they take the [unintelligible] that barrel hole, drop
�Christl, Roland
it in this container and it starts boiling. Then you get the other barrel, snap it in, put another
container on there, start shooting again, keep doing that until they make the order to stop but it
was very interesting to see how that was operated, you know and then not long before that we
stopped another mine, it wasn’t all the far away from the one. On the way over during the storm
in the third hole we were getting leaks through the seams they said– The G.Is “Just stay down
there, just stay down there.” Well they didn’t stay down there, wasn’t my hole but I’d say they
come up and they couldn’t stay down there, water seeping in, if that broke open any larger than
that you know it’d be a lot of water gushing in.
Interviewer: “Alright, so where did you land, in Japan where did you go?”
We went to Osaka and couldn’t get off because there was a bunch of Marines out there on that
area, there was no place for the soldiers, the Army and so we stayed on the boat. Well that was
28 days before we ever got off that thing, a very long time.
Interviewer: “So how did you spend your time?” (16:15)
Well everybody has a job doing something or other, we were to clean up down in the mess hall
and they had cafeteria style of course but when you have– When you have mess you have a line
of people going in the mess hall and it goes up this ladder and up that ladder and down this way
and that way, very very long line and so we’d get down there early and eat and then because
we’re in clean up we’d get in the line again that’s like two and half hours later, you know we’re
hungry again, go through the line a second time. First time you gotta get your card punched,
second time we’re in clean up so they let us through, we ate standing up.
Interviewer: “Okay, so did they let you go ashore at all or were you just–”
No, we didn't go ashore at all.
Interviewer: “Okay, so now did they finally let you go ashore in Osaka or did you go
somewhere else?”
�Christl, Roland
Got to go to Osaka, from there it must have been Yokohama, got to a big port there and we got
off and we were in the Tokyo area now.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have a unit assignment yet or were you just still a
replacement?”
Trying to think, I got into the 98th Division, I was 8th Army. Somewhere I got mixed up but
anyway I got into the infantry there for a while and they needed a truck driver, well I drove truck
on the farm and so I got a truck driver’s license and drove. Well the 98th Division was made up
of people from the New York area, never saw a day of combat, floating reserve through the
whole war. The fella that was driving the truck going back home I took his place, he was a bus
driver from New York.
Interviewer: “Now what was it like to drive a truck around Tokyo?” (19:00)
Well, as long as you’re following someone not too bad, sometimes these roads were only about
as wide as this room, the truck has got this much space on either side and the people are riding
bicycles on both sides. So you know you drive it the best you can, I guess if something happens
it happens you keep going, it was some– And then we went to the Yokohama– Forget what they
call it where they had most of the supplies came in and they’d have supplies backed up, you
wouldn’t believe. Barrels, 55 gallon barrels like from here to that other building, about 10 feet
high and about that wide, two of you, you know and they had motor ships I mean a lot of stuff
comes off and we’d go in there for supplies and they’d load our trucks and take it back to camp.
Well after that–
Interviewer: “Well, now just a little more here, what did Tokyo itself look like at that
point?”
Tokyo downtown wasn’t too bad, they didn’t really destroy it because of imperial palaces,
they’re located really right there. They didn’t drop any bombs on that but later on when I got
�Christl, Roland
transfered over to Sugamo prison, all you had was cement slabs here and cement slabs there and
I got a picture of desolations. Unbelievable, just you know they have these houses, smaller
houses, even probably the bigger ones they’ve all got these sliding doors, you know with sort of
a paper windows in them and very very fragile buildings. So when the many pom-poms hits I
mean it goes, the fire extinguishing system they had, we had one there at 720th and we had a fire
there and so they called the Japanese fire department and we had a reservoir or a tank a little
bigger than a swimming pool probably about 10 feet deep, concrete, full of water, that was their
water for fighting fires. They drive their truck up there, throw a hose in, start the pumper up and
then that’s the way they fight the fires. Well when they got all the water pumped out, you look
down there in the bottom, there’s a napalm bomb there and it had busted open and the napalm
was kind of run out on the bottom, but if that thing were to hit ground and splattered that whole
camp would’ve– It was a Japanese military camp at one time, we took over– Took it over and
lived there and seeing that down there if it hit bare ground it would’ve splattered and that’s what
happens, you know they hit a residential area, nothing left, burned the whole thing down.
Interviewer: “Now how long did you spend as a truck driver?” (22:19)
Oh not too long because they needed someone in the telephone section so they transferred me to
the telephone section. Well when I got to the 720th MPs I worked in the telephone section, then
they transferred me to Sugamo prison. Well if you know wire, you know electrics wire so they
transferred me to the electrical department. Well then they needed some refrigeration work so
they sent me to a battalion of engineers to learn refrigeration. So I did learn refrigeration and
then I was discharged as a refrigeration service man.
Interviewer: “Okay, now let’s back up a little bit, let’s go back. You had your initial
assignment as a truck driver for the 98th Division and then you switch and your next unit
is–”
The telephone.
Interviewer: “Okay that’s– For which that was 720th?”
�Christl, Roland
No, that’s still the Army.
Interviewer: “But it’s still the 98th Division at that point?”
98th Division, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you work telephones?”
I don’t know, I got my T-5 there, they just jump from private to T-5, they were gonna jump me
to sergeant but, I don’t know they stopped it.
Interviewer: “They stopped promotions after a while?”
Well they stopped promotions for a while, I really don’t know how long I stayed there but–
Interviewer: “Were you just a telephone operator or did you lay wire?” (24:05)
No, no– Yeah, I even climbed poles, I was up on a pole we were supposed to tag all the wire that
came in there, before we got there the first bunch of G.Is got there they strung all these wires and
so we got all these wires up there, I went up the pole I’m gonna tag all these lines. Well so you
have a double E8 phone, you hook it in, crank the crank, and see who was there “Colonel Bork
here. Colonel Bork, who are you?” “Well I’m Corporal Christl, I’m up here on the pole checking
these lines.” “Tag that line, never get on it again.” He had a private line to–
Interviewer: “America’s headquarters?”
America’s headquarters. So one day they come in, called me into the day room, they said “Well
we’re looking for an honor guard for General MacArthur, and would you like to accept that?”
Well probably would’ve been interesting to accept that but I didn’t and– Too much spit and
polish man, you know you shine them every minute you were up there and it was kind of
�Christl, Roland
interesting and I always thought I probably would’ve done nice and seen him, maybe even
spoken with him, you know.
Interviewer: “Did you ever see MacArthur or see MacArthur’s car?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you’re stringing telephone wires and then how do you end
up changing jobs?”
From, well when I got out of the– When I got into the 720th I’m still in the telephone section,
you know it was just four of us and we didn’t have much to do because most of the other wire
stuff was all installed already. There was one line between us and some prison that they were
renovating and over out there stringing wires to get line from where we were to the prison and all
of a sudden here comes all these Army trucks full of prisoners, and we’re backed up against the
building and the road’s about like from here to your window and these guys are kind of swatting
see if they could hit us, you know all the prisoners. I won’t tell you what color most of them
were but–
Interviewer: “Okay, so these were American servicemen who were prisoners?” (27:05)
All American servicemen.
Interviewer: “Okay, so people who had been acting up in Japan and got themselves
arrested.”
That’s right, we had a few people come from Europe– European campaign that had bad time,
now if you have bad time in the military after you get you, you gotta make up that bad time. So
we had people over there and couldn’t get them to do anything, they did what they wanted
mostly. Sergeants in charge they give up and there wasn’t really that much for them to do and
most of what we did have to do they just didn’t do it. So now comes time to send stuff home and
�Christl, Roland
anything Japanese you could send home, the machine gun, anything. This fella that was in– I
think it was our group, saw him all the time, he was sending home boxes full of Japanese
military stuff, a flare gun, and at the warehouse you could get that stuff and no one said anything
about it.
Interviewer: “Alright, so well why did you change from the 98th Division over to the MP
unit?”
Well the 98th Division was coming back to the states and I hadn’t been there very long so I’m
not going back with them.
Interviewer: “Okay, those guys most of the rest of them had been in the division longer
during the war itself and so they rotate home but you’re still there. Okay and now they
gotta rotate you into a different unit and so you wind up with the MPs.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay with that MP company?” (29:02)
Well I really can’t say because we had that bad fire and the building was completely practically
destroyed and the colonel came out and– I think he’s a colonel, and– But he was intoxicated
“Someone get the hose on that fire!” “Well we’re waiting for the Japanese fire department to
come.” “I don’t care, call them again.” Well after him coming out like that he got transferred to
Sugamo prison. So then he had the MP battalion overstaffed, so they wanted to get us down to
what the staff should be. So some of us got transferred out and he had a way of getting some of
us over to Sugamo prison where he was at. So we’re in review at Sugamo prison some time, he
came by and he asked where we had been in service– Stationed before, and so I told him I, well
was at the MPs and he said “Well how do you like it here?” Was only about four– Three, four
miles difference between one and the other, so I said “Very good sir.” So that’s where he ended
up and where I ended up.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Now what was your job at the prison, what was your job?”
Well then I would become an electrician because I knew wires, so wires are wires, telephone
wires, electrical wires, that’s the Army, and so I’m in the electrical. Well then the– We did all
these odd jobs and like Tokyo Rose’s switches and other things. We had a short one of those big
barracks now we’re in the Japanese campgrounds. They had these buildings, two story buildings,
long ones like from here way over to that other building there and so it short and blew the fuse.
Well you pull out the wooden box and there’s a terminal here and there with a lead wire in
between, so every time you flip the switch the lead wire would melt. So it was a short and it’s not
working in the middle of the day, ”How you gonna find a short in a big building?” I said “Well
one way we can find out– I’m an electrician, one way we can find out we’ll put a copper wire in
there.” And down at the other end of the building they have a small section sectioned off for a
guard house and they had a bulb hanging down on the wire and pull the chain, you know and
then you have electricity, have a light. So all of a sudden that thing was shorted out and started
smoking and they sent in the fire alarm. So we quickly, you know, knew where the short was, so
well then they had two elevators in the prison, one was working fine the other one was not
working. (32:40) So, work order comes in “See if you can get the other elevator in operation.”
So went up on the roof, opened the door, looked in there and I don’t think I’m going to try to do
a thing in there, close the door back up, you know all these copper, brass switches and poles and
what not. So that was one experience, now the officer’s latrine didn’t have hot water. “Fix it
and– Fix it and hurry up.” Well, so we took a look and the electrodes would come out like that,
spark and set off the oil. They were burned out, there’s no replacement “You ain’t gonna fix
something? Hurry up.” Well I says “You know we have these welding rods, they got a flux on
them and so let’s try one of those.” Well we put those in and sure enough it worked, for a week
and then burned out again. So now the officers are really hot, you know “You guys fix
something it don’t stay fixed what’s the matter with you!” You know, blah blah blah. So I forget
how we ever resolved that but I think they did finally find it. See I wasn’t in charge of the
electrical department, we had an old man who was in charge of that, he was regular Army come
to think about it, and so that was another– Then the– How I became a refrigeration repair man,
they brought in–
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Hang on before we get there, before we started the interview you told me a
story about Tokyo Rose and if I could record that on the cam here. First off, could you
explain who Tokyo Rose was?”
Well she was an American citizen and she went to Japan to visit her family and the war broke
out, she couldn’t come back. So she’s an American citizen just like we are, she speaks– Probably
spoke Japanese too, I have no idea but she visited her family so she probably does and so they
asked her, or told her one or the other, that they wanted her to broadcast on the radio to the G.Is
in the area and they would give her what she should say, and so she said “Well you know how it
goes.” You know, we know where you’re at, we know where you’re going, you’re not gonna
make it, you know and things like that.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so it’d been basically a propaganda broadcast during the war that
became very famous that way. Alright, so how was it that you met her?”
Well as an electrician the order came in, Tokyo Rose needs her electrical switch fixed. (36:00)
So we had a young Japanese electrician and an older one and so if we had anything that needed
fixing we could either try to do it ourselves or take the Japanese, I took the old Japanese man
with me and we went all the way to her prison cell, they had four or six cell blocks– The last four
or six cells was boarded off by the door. That was where the two women were in there, Tokyo
Rose is one and there was another younger one from Saipan they said, and so we got up there
and a guard let us in and I said– Told the Japanese fellow to fix the switch and I sat down at the
table like this and talked to Tokyo Rose and so I asked her if I could have her signature. She said
yes but I don’t have anything to write on, so I had a ten yen note in my pocket and this is the ten
yen note and on the backside there’s her signature Iva Jade Toguri which was her name then. She
got married I think in the states after that and Tokyo Rose in books.
Interviewer: “Alright and then you left the room.”
Definitely left, well I went through and told her that– The guard left and I’m sitting there with
her and she said to me “Are you gonna– Are they gonna leave you in here alone with me?” I said
�Christl, Roland
“I won’t bother you.” She said “That’s not the point.” She says “I haven’t been alone with a man
for a long time.” Well that kind of interested me and so then I got her signature and fellow fixed
the switch and we left. They had a guard right outside of her door all the time.
Interviewer: “Okay, now were there other Japanese prisoners being held there?”
Oh yeah, Tojo and all his bunch were– Bunch of them, there was a lot of them there and I had
this picture showing the bus that they took him on and down to Tokyo to the war crime trials just
like they did in Germany. They had several they took on the bus, they had escorts in the front
and the back and away they went and we couldn’t get into the prison until they were out. When
they were loading the bus I got someone sitting up there I said “Well one day I’m gonna take my
camera and take a picture.”
Interviewer: “What kind of impression did you have of the Japanese people generally?”
Oh they were wonderful, wonderful people, they were not a bit aggressive or unruly or anything
like that. If you went downtown Tokyo and walk down the street they would part, they would
part to let you walk through. They were instructed by their emperor what to do.
Interviewer: “Were you surprised that they were that well behaved?” (39:48)
Oh absolutely, I surely think the young men would heckle or say something, none of them ever
did because we were out there– Well at the prison you lived in a quonset hut, it was outside the
walls of the prison, the wall was like six feet from the quonset hut about 30 feet tall and our
quonset hut now is about this far from the sidewalk and the sidewalk is right next to the street
and the Japanese living on the other side they can’t walk– They’re not supposed to walk on our
side, they were walking back and forth across the street. So being in the Army most everyone
smoked after we ate, sit down along the wall of the quonset hut and smoke our cigarette and
when we’re done we’d flick the cigarette butt out in the middle of the road, about ten little kids
would jump on it, really. When we got done at the mess hall we dumped our trays, that was like
service, self service, and when we got done we had something left, went into the 55 barrel and
�Christl, Roland
we dumped our trays into two or three different barrels and left but when we were done eating
they took this 55 gallon barrel of leftovers, pulled it across the street and little kids are lined up
there with their little pails to get what they could out of there. It was two little girls, must’ve been
twins, and their folks live right down the street, I could see them down there looking out the door
waiting for them to come back. They lived in little shacks it’s all they had cause this is a couple
months after the end of the war, and one day the two little girls didn’t get anything were too late
and so crying boy oh both of them crying walking back with their empty pails, that was pretty
sad and a lot of people in the big parks they had– There was people always crawling under the
buses and dying, yeah.
Interviewer: “So there was starvation, there was a lot of other problems. Alright, now one
of the things that went on I mean there was also a lot of prostitution and things like that
going on, were you aware of that?”
Yeah, oh sure, I don’t think I’ll get into that.
Interviewer: “Yeah, wasn’t a personal question more just were you aware that was going
on kind of thing.” (42:45)
Well there at Sugamo prison we had a little walk, like from here to where I live, to get to the
train station to go any place, was mostly all cement slabs and every night there’d be a bunch of
girls out there waiting for anybody that came out. We were getting battle rations at that time so
we’re getting a lot of stuff for free and when we did buy cigarettes out of the PX I think they
were one carton a week because, you know cigarettes is real high, you know I think it was 60
cents per carton of cigarettes, ten packs. You could sell them to Japanese for $20 and so 60 cents
for a carton of cigarettes, you know how much is one pack worth, and I’m thinking it’s ten packs
so each pack is worth six cents and to the Japanese it’s worth 30 yen which is $2 and that’s all it
took, you could have one of the girls anytime you wanted one for one pack of cigarettes, for the
price of one pack of cigarettes.
Interviewer: “Did that create health problems in the unit?”
�Christl, Roland
Well sure, would any place it would be that way in the United States.
Interviewer: “Okay, now were there also, I mean were there– The downtown area, did they
have regular restaurants and things that were open that you could go to?”
Not too much, we weren’t allowed really to eat anything or not to drink anything either when I
was back in the 98ths a couple guy went to town to drink some– Something that the Japanese
gave them, which was wood alcohol, and almost died, yeah almost died.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you were going to talk about becoming a refrigeration
specialist, how does that happen?”
Well then we had a walk-in cooler that they used when they are out in the fields and it was
gasoline driven and now they wanted us to convert it to an electric motor. So how we gonna do
that? (45:27) Well nobody in the electrical department that I’m in there could figure that out so
they sent me to work at an engineering battalion to learn refrigeration. So I learned quite a bit
about refrigeration, how to test refrigerators that are not performing properly and how to convert
one to electric. So I got the old electrician, the old man, and tried to explain to him what we
wanted and he got most of everything and we got it going. Yeah, we did convert it.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when you were in Japan did you know how long you were going
to have to stay?”
I had no idea, no.
Interviewer: “Okay, now while you were there were a lot of the other men rotating home or
once you got to the prison did those people stay pretty much the same?”
Well everyone has points and you’re on a point system, when you get so many points then you
go home. Yeah so some people left, when I left I think two of the people that were in the MP
�Christl, Roland
battalion were– Still stayed. Then you get down to what they call the repple depple which is a
replacement depto where you go to get shipped out. We had chow lines, must have been almost
from here to Eric’s barn over there long, single file. “What are we eating?” “Well we’re having–
” This and this and you get about halfway there and guys they’re coming back already “What are
they eating?” They changed the menu already, that’s how long– How many people were there
and then of course when the boat comes in and we’re ready to load up then we go, going back
was easy yeah.
Interviewer: “And when did you come back to the states?”
Well we came back to Fort Lewis, Washington and didn’t stay there all that long they– Got
discharged there.
Interviewer: “Okay, I guess you’ve got a discharge date, January 4th, 1947. Now do you
remember where you were Christmas of ‘46?” (48:07)
I remember going down to Tokyo to the– What’d they call those clubs, G.I clubs and I think it
was run by the Red Cross, they had a big Christmas tree and I went down there.
Interviewer: “That must have been right before you left then, unless that was the year
before.”
I wasn’t paying much attention to dates.
Interviewer: “Alright, now once you do get back home, you’re out of the Army now 1947.
What do you do?”
Well before that I got to Chicago, wanted to catch the Twilight Limited to Niles, they said “No,
no G.Is” So my brother lived in the suburbs in Chicago and I called him and he said “Well come
over and stay overnight and I’ll take you back to Berrien Springs tomorrow.” I was surprised that
they wouldn’t– Twilight Limited is a faster train to Detroit, Chicago to Detroit stops at Niles but
�Christl, Roland
they wouldn’t let us on, wouldn't let us on. I thought that was a fine “How do you do?” You
know?
Interviewer: “Yeah thank you for your service, maybe some other G.Is got in trouble.”
Yeah, so after I got home well I just sat right back in, my bed’s still there.
Interviewer: “So you just went back to farming and then–”
Well I worked at Studebaker for about a year I think, I know I spent one summer there because
we didn’t have all that much crops because my dad cut back and so I spent about a year a
Studebaker’s making $3 and something an hour and that was a high paying place in this area at
that time.
Interviewer: “So why did you leave Studebaker?” (50:20)
Well, needed a little cash, I sent mine home from Japan, and I think I needed a little operating
money and there wasn’t much coming in at that time.
Interviewer: “But then after a year at Studebaker you left?”
Yeah, I left yeah and start farming with my dad.
Interviewer: “Okay and is that basically then what you did as your career, were you a
farmer?”
Absolutely, and then we started putting in orchards and you know only takes about three years,
especially peaches you start getting production and grapes and pears. Next family expanded on
those acreages, we raised a lot of fruit. We had a hundred ton of grapes, had to plant them all by
hand, picked them by hand, hold them in our– Mostly in the wineries at that time.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Alright, now to think back at the time you spent in the service how do you
think that affected you or what did you learn from it or were you just the same guy when
you got back?”
I figured I was.
Interviewer: “Alright, you certainly saw and did some interesting things so thank you very
much for taking the time to share the story today.”
Well you’re welcome
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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ChristlR2164V
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Christl, Roland
Date
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2017-10
Title
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Christl, Roland (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roland Christl was born on October 29, 1924 in Berrien Springs, Michigan, where he graduated high school in 1943. Since several of his friends and brothers were in the service, he decided to enlist into the Army to offer his contribution to the war effort. Enlisting in April of 1945, Christl was sent to Camp Robinson, Arkansas, for Basic Training. Both the war in Europe and the war in the Pacific ended while Christl was in training, and he bounced between camps in the United States awaiting postwar orders. From Fort Lewis, Washington, he was deployed to Japan on a troop ship, dodging several ship mines in the Pacific during the voyage. The ship landed in Osaka before transferring to Yokohama. In Yokohama, Christl was assigned to the 98th Infantry Division and volunteered to be a truck driver, operating supply lines between the port and Tokyo. Later, he volunteered and transferred into the telephone section of the 98th Division alongside the 720th Military Police Battalion. Eventually, Christl accepted a job renovating a prison that held American servicemen from both theaters who were being penalized for insubordination. Since most of his division rotated home shortly thereafter, he was transferred to the 720th Military Police Battalion, working in a detachment at the prison. He, again, became an electrician with the MPs and worked electrical maintenance duties around the prison. Christl also had the opportunity to meet the famed wartime broadcast host Tokyo Rose while fixing her cell’s electrical switches. While talking with her, he managed to get her autograph on a ten yen note. The prison also held several Japanese officials who were being put on trial for war crimes. Overall, Christl thought the Japanese people were wonderfully respectful toward American troops despite the heightened poverty and starvation rates they suffered after the war. He was also briefly transferred to an Engineer Battalion to be trained as a refrigeration technician. He worked as a refrigeration technician until he accrued enough service points to rotate back to the United States in January of 1947. After leaving the service, he moved back onto the family farm and briefly worked for Studebaker Automobile Company before returning to farming. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Christl believed he left the Army as the same man or character that entered it.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Lest We Forget
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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video/mp4
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ae9c8c2ba3880edf22312455d2630655.mp4
08104161569f100d03eccdc2d1ed8e79
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2452dee325560cc7fa79fde2a0515c88.pdf
acb9d5f545322589cd11fa5a5a7ade68
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 1:37:52
Interviewer: Alright, we are continuing Roger Talmadge’s interview and we had worked
our way through most of your military career. Now, we had gotten into what I gather was
your last assignment. You were based in Alexandria, Virginia. You were essentially in
charge of the whole set of computers that the Army used on various bases with individual
units around the world. So, you were stuck kind of outside of Washington, outside of the
Pentagon? Okay. And you had been developing systems in the last piece of the last episode.
You were talking about how you had already done a system for the 24th Division that
General Norman Schwarzkopf was in charge of down in Georgia. And you had gone back
to him and asked, well, can we come back and sort of upgrade or fix it and he didn’t want
anyone to touch anything.
Veteran: We wanted to go to a war time system and leave the peace time system. So, he rebuffed
us and threw us out of the office.
Interviewer: Alright. And then, somebody that you knew, or knew of, from your 1st
Cavalry days was commanding a division elsewhere and he agreed to let you come in. So,
sort of who was that? Where were they?
�Veteran: Alright, what General Schwarzkopf did: he complained to Washington D.C.
leadership—somebody, I don’t know who it is—that, doggone it, he’s over here, he’s in a
combat zone. I think it was in 1990s time frame. And one of the sergeants that is here this
morning went with the warrant officer. And so, to respond—Washington’s response was to send
some subject matter experts to the General’s headquarters and, wherever it was, in the war effort
in the Middle East. And they gave a briefing on the system generally. And as they got to a point
where okay, fine, and just general information got out. And so, General Schwarzkopf left and as
he was leaving, one of his aides had waved to Steve to come on. And so, they went with the—he
went with the general back to his office and there is where he told him, “This system that we’ve
got for you is very, very simple. It is easy to use.” And he started bellowing about it, “Well,
that’s fine but I expected a war time system and I don’t know what you are talking about in the
briefing just now but I want to see it.” (00:02:44)
Veteran: He said, “Alright. Well, it’s so simple that any simpleton can run it. It doesn’t matter
who you are.” He said, “Now, what you want on—what I want you to do is hit this key and this
key and over here, push it all the way down together at the same time.” And when he did that,
the screen of his computer blinked and it came up: war time system. What it did: it was a faster
system than the system he was using because it dumped 30…66% of his database and refreshed
it with—keeping the names and units where people were assigned and such pertinent information
about the soldier. But it also included acronyms and things like that that you don’t use in
peacetime, in war time, like WIA: wounded in action; KIA: killed in action; MIA: missing in
action; and other kinds of things that did not appear in peacetime system. But all of it,
dependents data and things like that was gone. Detailed information about his training, past
assignments, all gone. Had a skeleton and it was like a form: you just read it and you are done. It
�was one page. So, I think the general was pleased but he still threw Steve out of the office. Steve
was [unintelligible]
Interviewer: Alright. Now, I guess you were…as you were kind of setting this up, you were
net referencing being in a warzone in the ‘90s. Now, Gulf War is 1991. You had retired in
’89. (00:04:27)
Veteran: Yes, so I found this out after—
Interviewer: So, you were aware of this later. Okay, so there was sort of an epilogue to the
story about Schwarzkopf not wanting the upgrade to his system when you tried to give it to
him.
Veteran: And then when he got it, he was complaining he didn’t have it. And sure enough, it was
on his system all—it was laying in the background. And all he had to do was hit it.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Now Ed Berber, who tested the system when he went over there, he knew the system. I
mean, he practiced this in person in his own office. And so, he didn’t have that question.
Interviewer: Okay. And then what unit had he been commanding when you sent your guys
to him? Was he on the west coast at that point?
Veteran: Well, Ed? Or…?
Interviewer: Ed. Because you were—basically, because Schwarzkopf wouldn’t take—
didn’t want to be the one—
Veteran: He was in Georgia.
�Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, we went…we took our case and pleaded with the commander of the 7th U.S.
infantry division and he was in California. And so, it was a subsequent assignment to that. He
was a 2-star; he moved up to 3-star and so forth, eventually 4. But at his later assignments, when
he was out in the war time environment, he knew the system because he tested it. And he went
down there with his brigade commanders and battalion commanders. Well, in the gymnasium—
and they broke it down into little cubicles—and they would communicate with each other. And it
worked. And they used satellite communication. They were sitting there in one building. The
satellite was still communicating. But interesting thing about the box: two men could carry it and
it finally became a laptop. But the box itself. If you are in a combat situation or even a training
situation and you dropped it off the 2 ½ or 5-ton truck, it could survive that. If a tank drove over
it, it wouldn’t survive that. So, let’s say it was my computer and the tank drove over it and in
maneuvers it just happened to fall off the truck and the tank was making a turn and it got wiped
out. All’s I’d have to do is go down to the supply room, get myself another command lift
computer, bring it in, plug it in, type in my username and my password, and 1 of 2 satellites
would reload that thing to my last finger touch on the keyboard. (00:06:49)
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: And that was universal.
Interviewer: And today that doesn’t sound so surprising with everything in the cloud
somewhere but we are talking late 1980s at this point and…
�Veteran: 1980 technology and but it was 21st century philosophy. And all’s we did is we updated
all along the way. And when they finally got the laptops, they were able to get all that stuff in
there and had 1 baseline instead of 3.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, roughly when did this happen? When did you have to start using
that system?
Veteran: They—we started using it in live in peacetime mode.
Interviewer: Yeah. But I meant in what year was it that you were going to the 7th Division
and…?
Veteran: Oh, the 7th Division was…I think it was about ’85-’86, maybe ’87, in that timeframe.
And so, I’d fly out to California and we’d have our little soldier back and forth talk and then we
would scope out with him and his folks. They worked directly with us because he couldn’t spend
a lot of time with us. And how we need to organize and command post exercise, on post, in one
of the gymnasiums. Later on, he put it out in his training areas and they are separate physically
but they are doing the same thing they’re doing in the gymnasiums. They would practice in the
gym, took it out here, and it still worked. And he’d walk around and…just look around, see
what’s going on. (00:08:29)
Veteran: So, the peacetime system worked very well and that’s where we got our statistics of
99.6% accuracy. And I ordered them in 48 hours. So, the wartime system was super fast because
it had a lot of room. It could expand if you needed it for something. So, that started the show up
as I was leaving in 1989 but it didn’t get into the battlefield until 1990. Now, they used it when
they went into Panama. I was already out of the service. They used it when they went into
Panama and but they also had the backup system working at the same time. So, they learned
�something from that which helped them further improve it before it went overseas to the Middle
East units deployed.
Interviewer: Alright. So now, what other kind of initiatives and projects did you run while
you were in that last assignment?
Veteran: The last assignment I was…when I reported in, there was a 2-star general, commander
of the Army personnel command. And I just went up there and I just checked in like I would
anybody else. “I am just arriving and I am your senior chaplain.” He said, “Well, that’s fine.” We
visit a little bit. He was at Fort Bragg in the 101st, or one of those, and 82nd airborne. And so, we
heard he injured himself on one of his parachute jumps. So, we were watching him when
eventually they retired him out of that because he did, he really did, hurt himself. But in the
meantime, he was just a place where he could be functional in a positive way because he was a
very good motivator and knew about everything that was going on, including he got involved
with what we were doing. (00:10:40)
Veteran: That was part of bringing the personnel management system into reality in the 21st
century. Various employees. So, we continued our several Bible studies, and he was aware of
that too, in the confines of those office buildings, the 2 buildings. And so, that worked out very
well. The second time around—this was the second time I was in that command—and in my
organization the first time, where I was in officer’s management, we had a situation. One of my
folks who lived in Maryland…husband took his life. And so, I got involved in that and I traveled
from Alexandria, Virginia to where she was at her mother and spent some time with her. She was
just absolutely come undone. And the—she had a survivor assistance officer but nobody would
listen to her so we took care of that. And I kept in touch with her. And she slowly got perspective
on it; she was grieving. Well, I was faced with the same situation here. The gentleman that took
�his life in a second tour there, General Ralph and myself and others, we went to the funeral and
General Ralph drove. And I think it was in West Virginia; I am not exactly 100% sure. But it
was some distance. Took him an hour and a half or two to get there. And we went to the funeral
and we listened to all the little stories and what everybody had to say. (00:12:35)
Veteran: And what happened was he seemed to be disturbed and we got close to him. One of my
warrant officers who is really close to everybody, he helped me by recruiting a lot of these guys
that came in with their skillsets. And really tried to encourage them and he seemed to bubble up.
He went home to spend…oh, I don’t know? Maybe a week or month, whatever it was, his
normal time off on his vacation time that is authorized. And towards the end of it, he took his
life. And so, we were absolutely shocked by that. So, we went to the funeral and we had military
honors at the graveside. And the general had me present the flag to the…I guess it was his
mother. I don’t know what the deal was with the wife. I forget that part of it but son was there.
And so, we spent some time with him. But gosh, what they told us was that he came there and he
was fine and he went fishing with him. I guess they even went hunting together. They just—
normal things that you do when you’re out in the wonderful, beautiful countryside of West
Virginia. And once in a while, the guys would call and he’d say, “Yeah, doing great.” But then
they went shopping one day and he put signs on the back bedroom door, ‘do not enter,’ ‘do not
come in this room,’ all that kind of stuff. I don’t know what else he put on it. And he took his life
and they came home to that. And so, that was…that was a hard trip to…that was a hard trip to
build…to support them and it took a long time for them to get perspective on that. (00:14:28)
Veteran: Very, very difficult. So, that gave me a little background before we visited that other
fellow I think I told you about, David Duckworth. And we did some investigating and there was
nothing to substantiate that he took his life. So, that was not a suicide. These were definitely
�suicides. And of course, the police got the weapons and all that stuff and they checked it,
fingerprints, and it took a while for them to—they had primary faced evidence to support their
conclusion. The other one had nothing. So, that—this was a heartbreak for us and that was a
shock at the same time. So, we had normal things that took place and we worked side by side
with everybody to do the work of those things.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, is there a point here where you start to think that maybe it is
time to retire? Or is that a signal being given to you by anybody else? Because eventually
you do go out in ’89. So, what leads into that?
Veteran: Well, so I had been there 5 years and they figured that I was homesteading or
something but we were getting—we were trying to birth a project that needed that extra…it
needed consistency of leadership in order to get ‘er done. Plus, the rapport we had with
commanders everywhere—they would go into a division, a corps, and then later on the battalions
and whatever else. And so, they trusted what we were doing and such a point where we would
suggest that this is what—this is kind of a thing you ought to do and as a training exercise. And
we would either have somebody go over there and help them or we would go over and help.
(00:16:22)
Veteran: But mostly our guys would go over and assist a unit. It doesn’t matter what size it was.
And that what’s made it rain and we found out a lot of mistakes or things that we just didn’t
understand, we figured them out in the field. And so, that really was a plus for the unit and us.
Well, at some point we got a new general in and he was going to clean house. So, okay. They—
when I got in that position in 1984, they upgraded from a lieutenant to a full colonel. I think I
mentioned to you I had a couple secretaries. The last one came on as a volunteer and finally I
hired her. Sherry Marinoff.
�Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And because she talked directly, I’d go to the Pentagon and I’d talk directly to the
office of the secretaries. In other words, Navy, Army, whatever. Because we networked with the
dependents—the DR system where they get their benefits because they are bonified and
validated dependent. So, but all the services are connected with that same system. So, we’d get
with the Navy and then we’d get with the Navy, the Marines, and we’d get with the Air Force
and the rest of them with the idea that our data that goes into our database needs to have the same
structure. Now, one of the things that didn’t work for the other departments was the fact that they
still had a 6-digit field for date and we fixed that. And so, what you have to do, you have to go
through all your software development and you have to move it and it impacts stuff down here so
you have to move that stuff too. Anyway, it takes—it’s a structural problem. (00:18:24)
Veteran: And so, we did that and so they did it too. And their systems are different than ours.
They might have that block somewhere else in the total of their software but as long as it is the
same, it is compatible. So, we worked on differences. I worked with the captain or 06 of the
department of the Navy, Marine Corps, and I worked with the 06 colonels in another department.
Well, my secretaries would call on all of them. One side would do this or do that or maybe we
are going to have some kind of a combined thing and somebody is pushing it, an outside agency
we need to get involved and they need to be with us, they need to be in it too. And so, because of
her direct contact, because that was in her job description, they promoted her to secretary to be
for a general officer. That was cool. So, she…so then she left me. The Navy recruited her out
of—right out of my office. And I pretended like, “Oh, everything is going to be fine.” I don’t like
her being gone because I would just hand stuff to her and walk away; it was done. And the other
guys that would travel too, not just myself, but they’d come in with these notes and she had this
�shelf. She would just take the shelf, insert it, and then put in the changes and it was done. She
could do it really well. Well, the person that replaced her…we just had a volunteer in there for a
while. So, 6 months went by. I got a phone call and this real sheepish voice says, “Can I come
back?” I said, “Well, it’s vacant.” So, we got her back and then we, a couple of us, went in my
office and sat down with us. “Now, what happened?” Somebody in the Department of the Navy
had hired her. Personnel management kinds of things and it was fine. (00:20:32)
Veteran: And they didn’t give her a job description. They gave her a desk and she was out here
with several ladies, 1, 2, 3, whatever, 4 of them. And so, one of the…lieutenant commanders, I
guess, he came up to her and she said, “I need a job description. I want to know what I am
supposed to be doing here. I am earning all this nice money and I want to contribute.” And he
says, “You are contributing. Just come to work and look good.” And he walked away. So, she
put up with that for a while, then she called us. She came back working for less money but she
was one of the men, one of the boys, and that kind of stuff. And so was her husband. But they
didn’t care about her husband; they didn’t care about Pete. They were interested in her. So, that
was a hard lesson for her. When I left, when I retired, she went over and worked for either the
Navy or Air Force, the inspector general office. And she was looking at the west side of the
Pentagon when it blew up on 9/11/01. The reason I got out was…they wanted me to stay in.
General Ralph was gone and a replacement came in and he wanted to clean shop. And so, what
they were telling me is, “Well, we could send you to Europe and you could be the chief of
automation for the United States Army there.” And I thought about that. (00:22:20)
Veteran: Do I want to be moving the family and all that stuff for 3 years? And I’d come back
here a foreigner almost and try to look for a second job. “I don’t think that would work very
well.” “Well, we will send you back to Fort Huachuca and you can run their computer system.”
�They didn’t want—they wanted me to stay in computer systems, not personnel or intelligence or
anything with the infantry. “So, you know, this is a good wind down. You can earn big money.”
Whenever I got promoted, I had been in so long, I just went to the top level pay scale thing. So,
that was, you know, that was nice. And I was thinking about that. Well, that’s really nice too.
That was kind of far from everything. So, they’re thinking of all these things and I—they could
send me to. One of them was become the deputy chief of staff for personnel, work for General
Elton, who was in Panama. And that’s the Southern Command, whatever you call that. And they
were under lockdown because of the rebels and all that stuff and there was a large military
facility there. And all the dependents were placed within that thing and couldn’t really go out to
do what you normally could have done before because of the rebels and their lives were in
danger. And I don’t want to get in danger. I got into some intelligence reports, finding out just
what the depth of this stuff was. So, finally I said, “I don’t know.” The Lord said, “Why don’t
you just go to Rowan Oak?” Rowan Oak, Virginia. Rowan Oak. Two words. I don’t know. So,
we went to Roanoke in May—I mean, March—of 2000…I mean, 1989. We went looking around
and we found a house that was out in the city but up in the mountains and it had this…I wanted
trees and be next to water, like I was in the lake. Well, the best of—the closest we got to was a
swimming pool. (00:24:27)
Veteran: 19,000 gallon swimming pool. Everything else was there, so—and it was inexpensive.
It was the cheapest house on the block. So, whatever it was, we needed to fix it up. Okay. So, we
put a contract on that rascal and got it and we are still in it today. But when we got that thing and
moved our—we moved out, down there, and I retired out at the end of July in 1989. And then
there we started a new chapter in our lives. One of the first things we did is work on the house
and when I ran out of money, I needed to find a job. And Disabled American Veterans got ahold
�of me and not only did I become one of their volunteers, but they hired me to start running one of
their fiscal operations in the Roanoke Valley. And so, after about a year, year and a half of that,
they called me to Ruthville where they had a Virginia, Department of Virginia, conference of
some sort. And they interviewed me and they hired me also, at the same time, to run several
thrift stores in the commonwealth of Virginia. And they had rules but some places just ignored
them and there was a lot of stuff disappearing and there was—they were not making money.
They went out of business 2 or 3 times and hired the same people back because they didn’t know
anybody else. And I didn’t know anybody except for those guys. So, I told them, “If you hire me,
you also get my consultant. And if you don’t like my consultant, you don’t need me.” “What
consultant?” I said, “The Lord Jesus Christ.” “Okay. Meeting adjourned. We will call you later.”
(00:26:34)
Veteran: They called me, they hired me. So, they had to put up with the Lord and myself. And
that was a problem because some folks were really doing some bad things as far as business
management. Accounting was needing upgrading. My hands were tied; I had to use their
accountant and their banks. And some mail came into me in Roanoke. It was missent. It should
have been going to Richmond, somebody in Richmond, but not me. And I opened it up and what
it was was a bank account in Richmond some accountant had. It was $64,000 for Disabled
American Veterans’ fiscal operation. And he was using the money to lend out to high risk folks
that needed loans. So, I got that money and then we leaned on him and I got another $17,000 out
of him. And then a local accounting service, we got with them, and the guy that I talked to was
one of the partners of it. His name was David Rowan and he used to be the president of the
Society for Accounting in a college in north Virginia. So, he coached me. He said, “You know,
you’re going to have to do something.” And so, we looked around and so we got involved with
�him and he straightened all this mess out. And once it got straightened out, the first clear year we
made over 1.3 million, we grossed. The next year was 1.5 and, all of a sudden, that disappeared.
(00:28:19)
Veteran: There was a clause in my contract that said when I worked—anybody working for the
division—the Department of Virginia—for the…Any residual at the end of the year they got
10% off the top during the year. And if there is anything leftover, they got that too. Hmmm.
$365,000 was redistributed amongst 44 chapters. My backup money for growth was gone. And
that happened about—after about 5 or 6 years I was with them. And so, I struggled to get that
squared away. Did some other things and finally, after about 21 years in that, I just bowed out of
it. It was…the leadership was coming in; they couldn’t read reports. The—David Rowan would
come over and try to educate them. They were uneducated. They weren’t—they didn’t have
business or accounting or anything where you’d get it in college, you’d get it in your—as an
undergraduate. And so, I just got out of that mess. In the meantime, in 1992, I was elected as the
Department Chaplain for the state of Virginia, and I kept that until 2013. And I was the only one
that did that. But what we did: we brought a team on board. It wasn’t a one man show. And
everybody got involved and so that made it a community. And when we had problems within the
community, in other words, the growing pains of society, and we had that amongst ourselves, we
would treat it. and we would have the folks that were—it doesn’t matter who it was—they would
get involved in it so it was a community resolution. (00:30:18)
Veteran: And we didn’t violate our mores or our person at all. And so, that was helpful. And the
idea was that we would become faithful and work for the good of our veterans through this
organization that has tentacles in various solutions out there, like the VA medical center or
various programs. And the government has things that they do to help veterans and families. So,
�we got involves with that so that gave me a strong background with working families. And I got
involved with quite a few of those through the thrift store operation. But it was a—it was a very
high-end challenge. I was paid for that and for the thrift store. But as far as whatever I did as a
chaplain, that was gratis to them. And but it was educational for me too. I even got the
opportunity to speak in various churches around in the commonwealth of Virginia, color or not,
and then that was excellent. One family of color adopted one of my sons and then they’d go
shopping together and carry on and just like a parent would a child and it’s acting up in the
shopping mall and they’d—their dialogue was just hilarious. But you know, “Mom, I want that.”
“No, you can’t have that.” That kind of thing. But that was good, that was positive, because we
needed that. A lot of folks are—they stay away from problems like that and why don’t you just
treat them. Just come at them full bore and but with a bit of grace and make those things change.
And so, that helped. We didn’t have that as a normal fare but my golly after about 3 or 4 years
we started, it started blooming and it stayed with us for as long as I was in there. (00:32:23)
Veteran: And I brought in a lot of folks. They came onboard and we had a tremendous choir and
those people were also giving as far as helping people that would come into some of our
meetings, conventions, throughout the year. We had 3 of them a year and so that was educational
and very rewarding doing that. I had open heart surgery on October, 2012, and I learned about it
in 1984. A flight surgeon in the Pentagon said, “You have a heart flutter. They call it atrial
fibrillation. And your liquor is also messed up. It’s going the wrong way. And so, the left side is
malfunctioning and it’s going to impact your heart somehow.” And what it was…Research
indicated that the Agent Orange, which was found in my blood, was causing that left electrical
false transmission. And it got strong that way so they put me on some medicine to help but it
really didn’t. And so, I went to…I had pseudo heart attacks a couple times in 1990 alone and
�they even sent me down to Duke to the VA there because it is a higher-level capability. And they
said, “It is your electrical problem.” And so, they cardioverted me and it went to a normal sinus
rhythm. Boy, I had a surge of power. (00:34:05)
Veteran: It’s amazing because I had a good, oxygenated blood flow. That was great but it only
lasted about a couple weeks and then it would shut down. And the medicine they gave me I
became allergic to and it, in one case, my eyes and my lungs started silting. So, I got off that
stuff quickly and I didn’t get on anything else. So, by and by, I retired and of course in 1990 I—
during that early retired years—that’s when I had some of this 1990 stuff pop up. And then later
on, I kept up with the civilian end of VA Salem. VA Salem really tried to help but they didn’t
have the talent that the local hospitals had. So, finally my mitral valve failed. I—it wouldn’t
close properly so I had half. If you are supposed to have X coming in, I had half an X when this
thing failed. So, I was tired all the time and my chest hurt me some time. I mean, there was
nothing wrong with it except it was—didn’t have enough blood. My head, it was hard to do
anything seriously cognitively because it didn’t have the oxygenated blood that you should have.
And these are things that they were training me. So, we got into the decision: do I have open
heart surgery? And we did and they took it out and they took the—it has 3 little feathers. They
were extended and they just cut, twisted, and so it was coming this way. So, the doctor, he’s a
little guy, he had to get on a soapbox to stand over me while I was in the operating room. He had
been there for years. And so he took it out, cleaned the place where he took it out, and then he
took the—got rid of the—he trimmed it, he sculptured these…the end of it, and then put a
composite ring in there and put it back and then he put full pressure on it. And when that thing
was like this, nothing got through. (00:36:15)
�Veteran: It got through when it was open but it didn’t when it locked up like that. The left
ventricle didn’t flush back. I had a surge of energy on that one. And that worked very well. so
that was—and so, I have been increasing my…I guess you call it exercise. Walking and toning as
far as that kind of thing. So, that’s been good. Now, in this time, when we first moved into
Roanoke, our children were—one of them was finishing up high school and the others were
coming along behind him. So, as soon as Andrew turned—the eldest—turned 17, I took him
down to Reserve Boulevard to the National Guard and we signed him up. He got in the National
Guard when he was 17 and then he went to Virginia Tech and got in the ROTC program and he
was also had his National Guard training, same time. And then he got into Highty-Tighties,
which is a really superb military marching band. They are on the caliber of what West Point has
or BMI. And so, they even marched in one of the inaugurations. I think Mrs. Roosevelt put the
lanyard around, inside out, on the uniform. And today they wear it inside out on the uniform. The
lanyard from her. So, that’s kind of a little tradition. So, he did very well and such and then
Shawn came along and he had allergies so he couldn’t get in at 17. So, he went into the Virginia
Tech and we checked him out with various doctors because I almost got—I almost didn’t get my
direct commission because I had this chronic whatever it was, sinus, and really it was seasonal
hay fever. And once they determined he had the same thing, then he got in the service.
(00:38:28)
Veteran: Now, David was—tore his—number 3 son, tore his leg up in a lacrosse game. They put
metal in it and the military will not take you because you’ll be a problem. And then when
Daniel—soon as he was itching to go down there—and so, he went down there and also got in
the National Guard at the age of 17. So, we started off the boys that way and then some time later
on, not very many years later my oldest grandson from my first marriage joined the Navy, went
�to Annapolis and now is serving in special operations. Married a woman who is also graduated
from the Naval academy and she’s a facility engineer at Portsmouth Naval Hospital. And so,
between them they gave us great grandbaby number 6 and 7 and each one is named after a Navy
Seal that has died recently. And that’s what they do. There’s a ring of them—not all ladies do
this—and that took our unit but many of them do so they are keeping their beloved comrades that
they have known alive.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, another side of things, I think before we began the interviews or
somewhere in there, you mentioned something about having multiple different academic
degrees. I think you talked about you had a bachelor’s degree, you had an MBA. Did you
go on to others at different points? (00:40:11)
Veteran: When I was at the Command General Staff College, I was teaching management and so
some of the leadership within the faculty would say, “Well, why don’t you work…You’ve got all
the basic stuff done and you came out with—at the top at the end of your class. So, all’s you
have to do is write a thesis that will cover something, either the science part or the arts part.” So,
I talked to them a little about this surveillance in depth thing and the arts part is knowing military
lures and postures and the implications of those things and the strengths and weaknesses and so
forth. And but the arts part—the science part was knowing how to use…and I used math as a tool
to structure the basic concept that implemented the surveillance in depth process. So, you take
knowledge of how to deploy the military forces within the context of what the math was telling
you. Because it would—you’d set the terrain up into little cells based on the geographic
structure. And then, you’d give it a unique alpha numeric number and then you’d run a…you
could run a…and I had a numbers book full of random numbers and you could randomly
everyday change that, the alpha numeric number, and you’d just send that out in classified mode
�and in there you would also drop in…you had a list over here and you could run the—run a
random alpha numeric number against that to figure out where to put these different things. And
if you have something that is duplicating here, you’d get rid of one and move it over here. So,
you’d have—you’d have some—you could make a decision. And when it was published, they
had the breakdown of the people and then whoever was going out into anywhere into this area
that you have restructured into alpha numeric portions of real estate. (00:42:50)
Veteran: Then, they would be told, “Well, today in this area we are going to have people and in
this, this area, we are just going to have surveillance. And at sundown, we’re going to have a
machine gun around here. We always have an aircraft helicopter drive by and just shoot the place
up and leave because it was an all-fire zone. If we had no fire zones, we’d make sure that those
were always blocked out. We just put visual on them and we would tell the enemy they didn’t
know the difference. And—or, if we were going to put somebody out and then we would do
something else and pick them up over here. So, we’d have no fire here and no fire here and while
they are moving, this stretch of real estate they are coming through we would just have visual but
no contact.” So, we tried to figure in all that. I wrote a paper on it. And it was voluminous, it was
terrible, it was unbelievable, but I was able to get it down to with charge graphs and a sampling
of the mathematical structure for all this in 125 pages. So, I got a master’s degree of military arts
and another master’s degree of military science. (00:44:09)
Veteran: So, I left that and then when I got out of the service in 2002, I was attending First
Baptist Church in Roanoke, Virginia and we got—our pastor had retired after 40 years? I don’t
know. Long time. And so, we got a new pastor in and he was an evangelist; he wanted to do
things. So, he appointed me as his mission minister and I didn’t have any formal training in that,
I just read the Bible and had Bible studies and all that stuff everywhere. And I belonged to the
�Gideons International, so I was out doing things and learning how to do those things too.
Speaking in churches about what God is doing around the world and the impact of having access
to over—into 215 countries, speaking 93 different languages fluently. Because they are all
natives. We just recruit natives and then turn them out. Alright, so he wanted me to do that. So,
what I did is I got into that and after…I got in 2002, so after 2003 or 4, I connected with a large
church in Atlanta, Georgia. Woodstock Baptist Church in Georgia. And I hung out with them for
2 years and they were training me, and several other guys around America, how to become
mission pastors because nobody—there is no training for that. You go to the seminary and
they’re talking all this other stuff, but they don’t touch on—they just say—they structure that and
then walk away. They don’t tell you how to do it. And so, they are teaching me how to do it .and
so, one of the things that you do is you motivate people in the pews to get involved. Okay…And
so, you tell them? No, motivate them. You have to get—you have to sort of get alongside of
them and stand up with them. (00:46:20)
Veteran: So, one of the first things we taught them was—and I went to the International Mission
Board in Richmond. And so, they gave me outlines of training that they trained missionaries, so I
brought that back and I started implementing that. So, they’d come out and I…one of the things
we teach everybody is how to be an intercessor prayer person, but walking. So, prayer walking
they called it. And but you could do it in your car when you were driving, eyes open of course,
and there’s all kinds of things you can do with it. And you’re not walking up to people and
saying, “Hey bub, my name is Roger. I am…Do you know the Lord? If you don’t, you’re going
to go to hell.” No, no, you don’t do that. What you do is you see people and you talk to God
about people instead of talking to people about God. So, some folks really got interested in that,
so they tried it. Maybe about 15 of them. And they went out trying this stuff and then we took it
�to Berlin, and we took it to different parts of Asia. We took it to China, Taiwan. We took it to
Canada. We did some other things too. In Canada we built a missionary center in Prince Edward
Island and also in Alberta. And then we came back to Alberta and built housing for students. But
we still went out in the community prayer walking. And the result—some things started
happening. So, they came back and told their buddies, “I did this; all of a sudden, that
happened.” “Really?” And so, all of a sudden, 15 became 30. (00:48:15)
Veteran: And then the other thing is that they taught the international level missionaries you got
to have a servant’s heart. So, if you were the missionary, say—it doesn’t matter where you were.
You could be somewhere in Kenya or somewhere in the world. And so, we’d go there. We could
be in South America with you. And you had a schedule and we had a schedule laid out but
sometimes, either weather or opportunity would change and so we’d get up one day and we were
supposed to go to the hospital and instead, we went to the schools. And you’d change that
because of the opportunity popped up. You don’t get that every day, so we’d go to the schools.
And the attitude of the men and women who went was we can do that. And so, that got out. And
they liked that. The other thing that happened was in doing that, we didn’t have always an
ordained minister in charge of the team. We had somebody that was interested in the country,
maybe had the language, something. Maybe they had an interest in it because their background
ancestry came from wherever. And so, they would be in charge, but they would have to come
back and let us know what was happening. And that became inflammatory after a while. So, then
the other thing that we did, when we had people visit our church, we would visit them. And some
people would visit, you know, for a week and go back a second week and then drop it. What we
did: we put them in by zip code and we built—we eventually built 20 teams of 2 or 3 people.
�And every Wednesday we would send out at least 10 teams. And it wasn’t the same 10 teams.
Well, some folks would go maybe twice a month, once a month. Whatever. (00:50:14)
Veteran: And so, that worked out very well and they liked the result. Same thing, prayer walking.
And then we had a 3 step way of approaching: you open the door and let them do all the talking
and you look for the hook and wherever the hook was lying, we’d try to share with each other
back and forth and that’s what helped build us into an even stronger group of people who went
out on the street. But you’d look for hooks and we’d learn—we’d share them with each other.
Somebody would say something about having trouble with a child or maybe they are having
difficulty with work or maybe they’re having a health problem or an anger problem. Or life a life
is boring problem. And so, those were hooks so we could open it up and show them some—a
little bit of scripture and a personal testimony. And they’d say, ‘Oh, that’s different.” “And
would you like to know this Jesus?” 80% of the time they said yes. It didn’t matter what
language it was in either. So anyway, that was working and worked that along up until about
2005. And while I was doing that, I finished two years with Woodstock and I still have
connectivity with the mission pastor. Still have it. I mean, I’ll see him 10 years later and I
haven’t seen him, he knows who I am because I will go to the International Mission Training
Center for something, maybe we are going to support something because we go there and we
encourage candidates that will become missionaries. And we love on them during part of their
orientation when they are first arriving. So, we get them set up in their five villages at different
parts of the world. And so, we get them settled in there. And so, I bump into these—this
gentleman once in a while. So, that worked well. (00:52:08)
Veteran: Then I went to Indianapolis, Evans Indianapolis—the Trinity Seminary—for two years.
And then I came back with all that background and writing and research and whatever reporting
�and infiltrating that into what we are doing in this mission outreach to the world. And got
involved with a New Life Bible Seminary. Whatever it was. A buddy of mine, he happens to be a
maintenance man at the Salem VA Medical Center, and he was the chancellor and creator of this
seminary. He’s a black guy so I was the only white guy going through the school. And they liked
that because I taught them prayer walking and he knew that and wanted me to do that. So, later
on I continued to do that. But I got a PhD in theology out of that, all that experience, plus writing
a thesis for him. And what I did is I basically summarized what I just told you about being in
these other places and what I picked up from the International Mission Board. And I did some
stuff for the North American Mission Board also. One of the things that Charlotte and I did by
ourselves: we went up to Prince Edward Island and—we planned this, we had been up there
before and I said, “I want to bring my wife sometime but I need some help.” And a fellow by the
name of…I think his last name was Welch. He was born in Entry Island and that island is in the
Saint Lawrence Gulf. It’s part of a chain of 6 islands and they call the 6 islands, the Isle de
Madeleine, Isle of Madeleine. And depends on the size of your map, you won’t even be able to
find the islands but if it gets large enough or whatever it is, you could see them. So anyway, what
we did: we spent 72 hours. We flew to Prince Edward Island, got on a boat for 5 hours. We spent
72 hours on 5 islands that connect with bridges and the Entry Island was here. Entry Island is
British and these were French. Now, it is all Canadian, but it is still English speaking here and
French here. (00:54:33)
Veteran: So, we landed over here; we speak French. Now, my friend, Brother Welch, he speaks
English, but he has—he also can speak some French. When we were boarding the ship, we were
going there with the intent of finding out how do you win those 14,000 people to the Lord? What
is going on on the island and then try—if it’s anything of value we can capture, we’d share it.
�Okay. So, on the 5 hour trip, we—Brother Welch bumped into some guy he knew and the guy
hated Americans and he thinks everybody that’s in Vietnam—or, not Vietnam…Well yeah,
Vietnam and later on places—should—good for them if they get killed. You know, doesn’t
matter where they are in the world, whether it’s Vietnam or Panama or some other place. And he
was just really mean so at—towards the end of the trip, we finally revealed who we were and he
just…he was just kind of quiet. He didn’t get pushy or change his decorum. Anyway, we didn’t
tell him a whole lot. You get on that island and you sneeze and 6 people will sneeze or say
“Gesundheit.” So, we—by the time we got there and we got settled in our little hotel, next
morning we came out and we were trying to figure out where do we go next? And a loud truck
went roaring by on the highway just right next to the hotel and squalled his breaks back down,
came down the drive, slammed on the breaks, jumped out and here is this guy that hates
Americans. He says, “You need to see my boss. I am in ship building.” Welch knew that; I didn’t
know that. (00:56:20)
Veteran: “I am in ship building. I build these sea-going fishing boats.” And he’s really—he goes
to this umpty ump Baptist church over here and I’ll bet you he can give you some leads.” Now,
when did that happen? So, we said, “Okay.” So, we went there. So, we went up the island and he
was way out. There’s this little, little thing that stuck out like that and then the building was real
long and the boat started with the hull here and when it came out the other end, it went out in the
water. And big—I don’t know how big they were. But that was how we got started on the island.
And so, what…Brother Welch knew everybody; he really did. I mean, he grew up on Entry
Island, went to school over here and he was with these people in business. And so, we met all the
leadership in any position. We met captains, sea captains now, this kind of trip. They also came
down the Saint Lawrence River to the Isle de Madeleine. And so, we met some of those in their
�homes and I took pictures of everybody. And then there was a Catholic church there. There was
a Jehovah Witness church there. And then this Baptist guy. And the Baptist guy, he was very
open to us and we interviewed him too. And we got information. We talked to everybody. And
then, we visited some of his relatives. They are in the fishing business. And one of them, when
we arrived in the morning about 7, he was just unloading his rig. He had been out there since
about 2 or 3 o’clock this morning and got a load of lobster. So, he unloaded, we went to his
house. And nice, modest home. It was well-built, could fight the weather because everything
froze—would freeze up—during the winter months and you—the only way you can get in was
by air. (00:58:19)
Veteran: The guy that was beating up on us was the pilot. So, he would fly in and he’d—we
engaged him and found out what he—he’s bringing supplies or haul out people that needed to get
a doctor’s appointment in Prince Edward Island or where. But anyway, so we met with him and
my wife said, “Oh, I saw those lobsters. Oh, it’s so wonderful.” And he said, “Do you like
lobster?” “Oh, yeah.” “Come back at 4:30.” So, he left. We left. And so, Brother Welch called
back to the house. What happens? “Oh, I am back. I brought back some of my fish. So, that’s
what I am going to cook now. I am putting them to boil now. It’ll get time to get—it’ll be ready
when you get here at 4:30.” And that happened to us over and over and over again. Everybody
was glad to see us. We met some people with some long, great stories. And they had good
contacts. The last person we saw was probably the most influential islander, person on the island,
was the editor of the Raraguerra [sounds like], which was their newspaper. And he’s kind of a
risqué kind of fellow. So, we walked in on that and he has one of his girlfriends there and so we
just greeted her like, you know, and she brought us some, I guess, coffee or tea. I don’t know
what it was. But he was really excited to find out what we were doing. We’ve come to
�evangelize the island. He says, “Oh yeah, this is a great place to come. And I have been here
since…” We knew this because we were briefed, and we took pictures of him. We didn’t take
pictures of his girlfriend. And he said, “Now, here is what you do: you want to evangelize the
whole island? What you need to do is Sam Lachlan, and he died, he was a millionaire. Had a
business in Canada but he—this is the place that he relaxed, went fishing, and relaxed with his
family. He left several millions of dollars and is downtown in our Department of Community
Services. And Sue Greenbridge is the director. She is the executive director of that operation. I
will call her and make an appointment for you. What you do is you volunteer. You volunteer for
her and you help people and as you are helping people, share your story, and you go from
helping to introducing. But if you just go and knock on the door and say, ‘You’re going to go to
hell unless you know the Lord’ that’s not going to work here.” (01:00:49)
Veteran: And he’s right. It doesn’t work in Poland, it doesn’t work in Czechoslovakia, it doesn’t
work in South America. That just does not work. But if the—India especially. If you show them
some truth and touch their lives, then they will be interested, and they’ll explore that. We aren’t
trying to start a church; we don’t need your money. None of that stuff. So, alright, so we got
then—he was really a hoot. He was a big help. So anyway, we wrapped that up, came home. I
wrote a 22-page paper with photographs and I sent it to the North American Mission Board,
because they’re in America, not just in outer area. So, that’s how I took care of that.
Interviewer: Okay. Now at this point, we have now taken a look at some of your postmilitary career and discussed your mission work and you kind of closed off the story of
going up to the Isle de Madeleine, Prince Edward Island, I guess, province but separate
islands and that work there. And I guess how do you…I guess, how do you see things
�coming together? What are you doing now or whatever that builds on all of that military
and post-military experience? (01:02:12)
Veteran: Ah, well while I was in the mission field for the church, even when they moved
somebody else to absorb it into his organization so he would be happy, whatever that is, takes
work to keep up with this stuff. But we got into Berlin several times. I speak the language and
that helped. And some really interesting miracles happened in our face during our prayer
walking. Why, it’s amazing. People walked up to us out of the blue and they said, “There’s
something different about you and we want to know what it is.” And they were foreigners, they
weren’t Americans. And that’s kind of interesting to se that happen. And so, that carries over
into what we are doing now in the sense that these people that were now touching in this ministry
we call—it’s not ministry, it’s a secular organization but it turns into a ministry and it’s called
Military Family Support Centers Incorporated. The reason why I am calling it centers, it’s with
the anticipation that it will grow in other states. Now, we have connectivity certainly throughout
the commonwealth of Virginia. But we are serving people in Maryland, West Virginia,
Kentucky, North Carolina, California, Texas, Arkansas, Pennsylvania. And because they get
ahold of our website and that’s how they get the people outside the states. But we also have
people in the surrounding states of Virginia who are members of our—either our reserve units,
our Navy Reserve, Marine Reserve, Coast Guard Reserve, Army Reserve, Navy Reserve, and
that kind of thing. (01:04:14)
Veteran: Or, are Air or Army National Guard in the commonwealth of Virginia. They live in
other states, but they are part of us here in the commonwealth. So, what we did in settling up this
Military Family Support Center, I was over at the church in my office doing whatever I was
doing and I got a call from the secretary, the pastor’s secretary, and this happened about 2004. I
�think it was in maybe summertime. I don’t know; can’t remember. And what it was: somebody
from the local armory caked and they were looking for a pastor to help them because they were
creating a new organization and they wanted to have some kind of a spiritual guide to round out
their team, whatever that is, whatever. And it is something to do with families. That was all I got.
We didn’t have a name. So, without telling anybody anything, the command sergeant major,
Tony Price, was the guy that was making the call. His immediate supervisor, superior officer,
was a lieutenant colonel by the name of Lapsa Flora [sounds like], a Vietnamese. And what was
interesting about his boss is his boss was in—grew up, born and raised, in Vietnam and when the
war came to an end, he had to flee to the jungle with his family. He was a child. And they ate
bugs. They ate anything. They just ate off whatever they could find in the land to eat. And so,
when he got old enough or threatened enough that he was now 18 years old, they would put him
in the transition schools they were putting people in, trying to get them converted to communism
or central government or whatever it is that they were doing. (01:06:18)
Veteran: And so, he left. He got on a boat and he came to America. He is a boat person. So, here
he got—he was adopted by a couple in…Boones Mill, I think, which is in…it’s a small town just
south of Roanoke. The Flora family adopted him and gave him their name. and so, they grew
him up in their local high school, I mean, local public school. And he qualified. His father had
been an officer or…I think so. He was a graduate of Virginia Military Institute in Lexington.
And so, whatever he did, whatever happened, he got him involved in that and he was a superb,
superior student. He just…he was just an outstanding student. His English was impeccable; he
got that way with it. And so, he was commissioned also in the Army. And I think at that point, he
was in the National Guard but nonetheless in the Army and through the years, he served
exceptionally well. And one was chosen to command the local battalion that was in Roanoke
�Armory. So, he was doing that and so he let his command sergeant major recruit this team, but
he was a major supporter. So, his unit is the founding unit and his upline was in desperate need
of help for military families. There is nothing out there for them because all of them mostly are
away from military posts, camps, stations, and forts. And so, if something goes awry…When I
was on active duty for so many years, I’d just go down to the local whatever it was and they
either had it there or they had the technician there or I could—somebody would show me how to
repair my car or where I could get…I could buy food or there was a food pantry or if I needed
something for the house, I could get a desk or a bed or whatever. And all of that—there was
something on post, camp, or station. There is nothing for these people. 67% of military families
live in rural areas. (01:08:45)
Veteran: So anyway, so they were enthused about this unit taking on this, exploring it. So, I
showed up and I didn’t tell them who I was, and they just knew I was from a local church. Hey
you. And so, the command sergeant major briefed him, introduced us to the commanding officer
who waved at us and walked away because he wanted that command sergeant major to get his
work—go to work. There must have been 35 people there: businessmen from all walks of life.
Some of them—I think 2 or 3 of them—had former military experience but everybody else was
just a civilian in some business venture. And the idea was—and some of the testimony we got,
there was a woman who lived not far from where Virginia tech is, 5 children, her husband was
deployed, and she was pulling her hair out. I mean, she was losing it. She was loud, aggressive,
and vocal. And so, to fix that, what the command sergeant major did, he went to the local church
and 4 or 5 of the ladies rotated at being a household helper with the everyday load just being a
good listener, a good conversationalist. And sometimes they went into stuff and then somebody
else would go get whatever they needed. And so, that kind of helped. That would be…that was a
�good example for others because they were sure there were others in then woods someplace, not
made known. So, that was passed to us. (01:10:22)
Veteran: And we talked about whatever our experiences were with neighbors that might have
problems, but they are not military. And then others talked about their military experience. And
then he asked me if I had any military experience and that’s when I got the bird floated out. And
so, I told him my experience as an enlisted man, also as an officer, and not only getting the help
in America but when I was in any foreign country. Same thing. And so, that means when I was in
combat, my wife was in a military facility, a family military facility. And only one time she was
off, she was away physically, out of the facility, but it was still she could go back on post, camp,
or station, and get something. So, she still had an umbrella. But these people Anthony was
talking about, they don’t have anything. So, alright, so I went to the men’s room, came back, and
I found out I was elected president. I am still president. And bottle washer. And I sweep the
parking lots and everything else. So, we started with that notion that we would do something. So,
we had to figure out first a name that would pretty much reveal who we are. And then at the
same time, we had to present it not only to the lieutenant colonel who was all for anything that
was positive like that but get together with various groups that were pro-military. Well, one
group is…The 29th division is a National Guard unit that is spread out. Part of it is in Maryland,
the rest of it is in Virginia. (01:12:16)
Veteran: And so, we had to go to the…we went to the leadership of that organization plus in
Virginia and Maryland, you have an adjutant general who is separate and distinctive, and that’s
structure. So, we had that to contend with. But a social organization they had called, ‘The 29th
Division Association’—the 29th Infantry Division—29th Infantry Division, none of that, just ‘29th
Division Association.’ So, we went to the 29th Division Association and they gave us the Post 64
�in Roanoke, and they are still around, gave us seed money. Our first seed money. We got several
thousand dollars from them to start something that nobody had out there. We looked on the
internet and there were no such nothing. And 98% of the organizations out there had all kinds of
things going on and maybe 2% had some reference to families but nobody was dedicated to
families. So, we thought that was interesting but also sad. We put this thing together with the
idea that, okay, we need money. We had to write job descriptions for who is going to—what are
we going to do and how are we going to do it and who are we going to do it with, and such like
that. And so, one of the first things that happened: we couldn’t stay at the armory because they—
that was under contract to be destroyed, eliminated. And plus, it might be some folks don’t want
to come to the armory to pick up groceries or pick up…maybe have a counseling session or
whatever they were looking for. So, we wanted to get into the community but still we were
limited. So, we went and got into Salem and we originally located our organization in the Post 3
American Legion, which is out in the community, a lot of room around it; it is really pleasant.
(01:14:28)
Veteran: So, if we had somebody come that needed a counseling, they could do it inside, or
sitting under a tree for more casual, and that kind of stuff. And in the basement, we had a food
pantry, a very modest food pantry that had clothing in it, bits and pieces of furniture and maybe a
few appliances. And I mean, it was a very small space. Very small, less than 1000 square foot.
Very small space. And so, we started with that and then we had a lot of activities. And the
activities—we would have the—to give the mothers a day…a break. We would take the
teenagers down to Adventure Land and wear them out. And then there was things to do. They’d
blow a whole day down there and we would feed them and all that. And the babies, we had
people who were qualified that we background checked. Everybody got background checked.
�And so, we’d take care of the babies. And so, the ladies—one time, some local Dodge dealer
gave us 5 vans. And we had drivers that were cleared. And they took them to some—one place
and they had sort of a breakfast thing and Belk’s or somebody had a fashion show for them and
then they went from there to some…I forget where it was. It was a shopping center, but they had
a couple places where we could, partial amounts, where some of them could start off getting a
pedicure while the others were over doing something else and then we would switch. So, we did
that for a while. And then we brought them in for lunch and dressed them up and they went to
one of the other ladies’ shops and got some things they liked, and they modeled those. And we
also gave them, each one, a $100 gift certificate to one of the—another place. (01:16:25)
Veteran: And that was the next place we went to. And so, we had a day like that. They had a lot
of time laughing and just carrying on, enjoying each other’s company, which they never got
together as a unit. And we were sort of just there. We didn’t…we were just there. We were the
driver or the…introduced the next point of contact where we go, where we headed. That—it was
a day of surprises for them. So, at the end of the day they were wiped out. So, we brought them
back to the American Legion building and had made a last cup of tea and got them quieted down
and reacquainted them with their children and then said goodbye. And we got some good
feedback from that, excellent feedback, very positive. But some of them would come back to us
because they started to mention some things to their lady friends in the unit and then they
decided to follow up with us. So, we don’t have counseling, but we have referrals, so we get a
baseline for them and refer them to somebody who we have vetted. We saved three—we saved—
we would have had to have insurance for at least 3 million dollars if we counseled.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Veteran: We just didn’t do that. And our guys didn’t want to take a chance; they didn’t want to
do that. So, okay. So, that worked out fine. So, we had referrals. We helped them with the
children. Sometimes they needed extra assistance and so we would maybe coach the school staff
about this particular child. We would go in there and sort of advocate for the mother. And that
was very helpful. Then the next problem was what do you do…they are getting ready to have
dad come home. We had some ladies, so mom to come home, but mostly guys. (01:18:29)
Veteran: And so, the National Guard had some programs to help us with that. And so, we
brought them in at the right time, get ready for…it really is going to be different, you are
different, and you are going to have to work your differences out. And here is what is available
to you when those differences arise and that was important. That really paid dividends. One of
the things that was extremely important was that when the soldiers, sailors, Marines, whatever,
came back, we needed to acquaint them immediately, and they were told to do this, with the
Veterans Administration. They changed it to Veterans Affairs Medical Center. They had their
last dental check-up and a physical and questions. And that was important to get that done and
they got signed in. Some of them didn’t do that and it created a lot of problems later on. Some of
these guys became suicidal and we didn’t see anybody do anything, but we know that there was a
lot of guys…there was a number of guys that had terminated their lives when they came back.
And so, we eventually got them in the VA and the VA was able to do something or refer them to
some civilian, somebody that they trusted or whatever. So, we continued that. And then, there
was some financial problems going on at the American Legion. They needed space or they
wanted more of whatever. We didn’t have any more of finances to help them. So, some church
adopted us and so we moved into a church for about 7 or 8 years. (01:20:15)
�Veteran: And we occupied some empty…I think they gave us 2 offices and all their warehouse.
And we turned the warehouse into a food pantry, and they would come into us and we had hours
at least four and a half days a week, and phone calls. And they could get ahold of us otherwise.
And so, we provided food, we provided—we got out of the clothing business. If we could hunt
something for them furniture-wise, we would help them with it. If their car broke down, we had
somebody that would repair something for them, or we could get a discount and somebody in the
family could change the tire if they wanted to or whatever they did. So, that helped. And we
helped a little bit with utilities. We didn’t have a lot of money, so we had to be careful. So, we
did those kinds of things. We were there to listen, certainly. And then we had…and we continued
some of these other things where we had education. And we educated them on how to fill out
their tax forms and paying bills on time. One woman came into us and she was bankrupt, and
they were going to take the house or the car, I don’t know what it was. They were going to take
something. And she was married to a lieutenant commander of the United States Navy and he
was in the intelligence unit in Stuttgart, Germany. Boy. We didn’t know what to do with that, so
a local banker said, “Please refer her to us. We have a financial wealth management office and
one of our ladies will coach her and find out what the deal is.” Come to find out, she had a
checkbook and as long as she had checks in the checkbook, she had money in the bank. The
other thing is, she also had a lot of mail and some of it was opened and some of it wasn’t. The
stuff she knew maybe was from a friend or maybe from her husband or something like that, she
is opening that. But these other ones for—there were people that were dunning her, and she
was—they were hitting her with penalties and all kinds of stuff; she didn’t open those. (01:22:37)
Interviewer: Okay…
�Veteran: She had a pile of them. So anyway, the lady that talked to her was a professional. So,
what she did: she took—went through all of her stuff. And the personal stuff from hubby gave to
her and then took everything else and worked out a schedule to pay it all off. She was making—
she was getting $7000 a month and bankrupt. So, we took that as a key so then we started
offering that kind of orientation and referral to everybody because we figured I bet you there are
some others out there the same way. They might not have $7000 a month but they got $325 a
month or $479 a month. And so, maybe this would help. I don’t know. So, we started doing that
too. And then we started having games on any place that we haven’t opened a space, we would
try to have some kind of…you know, the bounce houses and some cooking and so they could
have a little family get together. We found out we needed to do some things with the units. That
battalion that battalion commander was in that we told you about in the armory? His battalion got
ready for deployment. 450 guys. And so, they went up to Wisconsin. We have a base—a training
base—up there and they were up at the training base for quite some time. And when they got
finished with the training, they had a 2-week break and then they would deploy. So, when they
finished with the 2-week break, they needed 8 buses to bring them back to Virginia for the 2
weeks and then they would be driven over to the regional airport and eventually end up in Iraq.
Kuwait and Iraq. (01:24:34)
Veteran: So anyway, they had enough—Guard had enough money for 2 buses. Now, I don’t
know what happened. Somebody bought a bus, we bought 5. We did. Cost $8000 and we didn’t
have it. So, we went around with a tin cup and we got $8000. And so, they—the bus company
went up there in Wisconsin and picked up the rest of the battalion, brought them all back, they
are all together. And they worked out an arrangement between themselves or some—one of the
bus companies, it’s a local one, Abbott was involved with this—and so, they said, “Okay, now
�when you are ready to go to the airport, we will pick you up at the armory, take you to where you
are going to say goodbye.” There was a church that said, “We will help you. And we are going to
have your farewell.” And they provided all the food, and the ladies cooked these really neat
things, you know, these little finger food things. Oh man, those were great. And those went
quick. And then, other things that they made…It was really nice, and they brought their families.
Can you imagine what 400 plus families? That was a large group, about 1200. And they brought
in a senior ranking general and I don’t know what he was doing but it wasn’t a farewell, we love
you kind of…I don’t know what he was talking about. Maybe the new armored piercing round
that they would get. Nobody was interested in it and it was terrible. But other—that was the only
thing that was wrong, didn’t fit, but everything else was liter—the community in that church and
the surrounding showed up and then just loved on these people getting ready to leave. (01:26:17)
Veteran: So, the guys got on the bus and were taken down to the airport and flew out. And I
don’t think we paid for that. They, somehow, they did it amongst themselves, that bus company.
Talked to the adjutant general; at that time was a guy by the name of Williams. And he said,
when we visited him in his office at Fort Pickett. My executive vice president and myself, and I
went to visit him, and he said, “We need what you are doing. That battalion commander can’t do
it without you. And we can’t stand at a street corner…You all are in civilian clothes. You might
have been in the military once but you are in civilian clothes today and you can stand out there
with a cup and get some money or something, or maybe somebody can volunteer something in
kind, whatever it is, and you can help our families. So, please keep it up.” So, we tried to keep
that connection. Although they can’t advertise us, they can certainly refer folks to us. Now, in—
there are some other organizations like the Wounded Warrior Project. That’s a national
organization. John Melia started that some years ago. And he was one of our national service
�officers; helped people to get benefits that they earned when on duty. And he developed that
organization and fielded it. First, taking backpacks to Walter Reed Hospital up in Washington
D.C. area. Wanted me to get involved in that. And we were just starting this, and he was just
starting his and his is going to the guys and ours is going to the family. Everybody was wanting
to send stuff to the guys but not to the families and so I declined. (01:28:17)
Veteran: He eventually moved to Florida and he is making very well. I get all volunteers except
one part time administrator. That’s it. And so, he went his way. But when they need food, they
come to us. The state of Virginia, after we got started and we went to some of their meetings in
Richmond where they are talking about strategies and stuff, about how to work things in the
commonwealth to include the military, the…They put some kind of appeal to the legislature and
they formed a commonwealth of Virginia Wounded Warrior Program. Not project, program.
And what they did, they paid for all the administration to run something that mimics us, pretty
much, not completely though but pretty much. And then so every dollar that was donated to the
Wounded—Virginia’s Wounded Warrior Program—went to the client. That’s excellent.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: But it is limited. So anyway, over the years we have worked with them, we work with
the other organizations that are invented for military and/or their families. And we are involved
with all of that but none of them feed. They do a variety of things, but feeding is not—they can’t
sustain it. So anyway, moving into current times, in 19…or no, in 2015, we had to move out of
that church because their youth program was growing so big. And we were enthused with that;
we thought that was great. So, we closed—we closed our food pantry and gave it all away to the
Roanoke County Salem Foodbank. It was worth $16…no. I think it was worth $23,160. Wow.
(01:30:43)
�Veteran: Non-perishables. We didn’t have anything perishable. So, we moved out of that and
moved into the Blue Ridge Public Broadcasting Services Campus, and we are there today. We
moved there in…and we opened up in June of 2015 and been there ever since. 2016 we decided
we would help veterans. We didn’t focus on the veterans, we just—people were actively
involved in the Guard and Reserve, in training and/or mobilization and deployment for…what is
it? Disaster relief? Anything. And so, we were there and then sometimes, even when things
were…they were in just a training mode, something would happen. So, we would try to help out
there too. So, that was good, so we invited the veterans. In January 2016, we had 1 or 2 sessions,
but 12 families showed up. Okay. By December, it was up to 30 families and so we had about
500 families that we fed, maybe, ballpark. And if—and we gave them at least 7 to 10 days’
worth of food. (01:32:08)
Veteran: So, I back it down and calculate it. If we gave that much food to these families of, some
of them only 3 to 5 persons in it, and we kept data on the adults and the children, we figured out
that we fed so many people 22,000 meals. And that does not include the special things that we
did. When the headquarters 29th division went to Kuwait on October the 30th, 2016, they had no
food for the 800 family members that showed up to say goodbye to their loved ones, so we paid
for that. And Wounded Warrior paid $200,000 and we picked up $51,000. Then we paid for that.
That’s where I met the governor. That is coming. Okay, so that’s fine. So, we continued on and
we came into 2017. In January, we had 30 families. August this year, we had 127 families.
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: We have blown almost $90,000 and provided for…it is approaching now 700 families
and we have fed over…over 30,000 meals and we figured by the end of the year it will be 44,000
meals and 795 families. So, that’s where we are right now. And we are stretched. We didn’t—we
�were not prepared for exponential functional growth. So, we are operating under a thread as I
speak to you.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, is this in part because the division headquarters deployed and so
you had more? Or was it just people learn about you and… (01:34:13)
Veteran: Word of mouth.
Interviewer: Yeah. And so, it never—it just expands.
Veteran: We have two things that are causing it. First of all, there are more veterans than active
folks. Somebody that is actively involved in the Guard or Reserve or an active unit, active duty,
full-time unit, that was the active community.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Okay, that was, in the commonwealth of Virginia, maybe 8000. Veterans are half a
million plus. And so, we are getting that. And that’s just touching the folks that are here in
Roanoke Valley and the 5 counties around us, primarily. And then it leaks after that to start
touching the other people that come in. But…So, that’s where we are. And so, what we are
trying to—we are really struggling to—we don’t have a grant writer. I mean, I scribbled a couple
things and one of them hit and another one that was just kind of small hit, but I got one big one
that helped us. That’s the only reason we are through. And it’s kind of neat people give us stuff.
And I’ve got over $10,000 of income stuff and I am still picking up stuff from that—by the end
of the year, it should be $15-$20,000 of income. But once you get in it, it’s gone. And still in my
budget, we have—everything is automated now. I got an accountant that handles that. I don’t pay
him much. But what happens when I make an entry, I send him reports monthly about what I
am—I think we did money in and money out. The bank sends him a report and he computerizes
�the whole thing, hits some magic buttons, and it produces a budget. I have overspent $26,000 and
yet I got no bills outstanding. Now, how do you fix that? (01:36:09)
Veteran: It is paper. You can live on that, but the thing is what you need to do is have some
funds come in because this exponential function hasn’t stopped. And so, if I run out of income, I
have $12,000 dollars in hip pocket. That’s all I got left now out of a bunch. I had $55,000 in
2016 and we burned it up in 2017. But the idea is to keep the faith and folks…and we are trying
to—I am bringing a sergeant first class who is my first administrator. She is still on active
reserve unit. So, I am hoping she will be able to get good writing grants. So, that’s where we are.
So, all this stuff in the background is developing an environment for family. And where the
military can’t—where they have no—legally, they can’t…You can’t stand out on a street corner
on 10th and Middle in New York City with a tin cup so you get enough money to buy a new B52. You can’t do that. So, that’s what we are trying to do. We are trying to buy a new B-52,
locally.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for a really pretty remarkable story overall with a lot
of different pieces that interconnect in a lot of very interesting ways. So, I just would like to
close here by thanking you for taking all of this time out of your reunion this year to share
that story with us. (01:37:48)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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TalmadgeR2152V5
Creator
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Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
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2017-09
Title
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 5), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge was based in Alexandria, Virginia for his last military assignment. He was responsible for managing military computer systems. He served as the senior chaplain at his base and ran several Bible studies. Roger retired from the military in July 1989. After retirement, he and his family moved to Roanoke, Virginia. He was hired by the Disabled American Veterans Organization. Roger was also responsible for running several thrift stores located throughout Virginia. In 1992, he became the Department Chaplain in Virginia, a position that he held until 2013. Throughout his time in the military, Roger was able to earn various academic degrees. He earned a bachelor’s degree in computer science, a master’s degree in business, a master’s degree of military arts, a master’s degree of military science, and a PhD in theology. After his retirement from the military, Roger became actively involved in volunteer international mission work. Roger eventually helped form a program that aids military families in fulfilling their basic needs. He has been the president of the program since it first began. Roger is committed to helping veterans and their families.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/392ee2a0b0be54183b13f0bccd7ccebe.mp4
f8c2d24eed3cce4b2ee2c9ee12894923
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69c4b3a443f63ae36508c89e470a016e.pdf
74bc9b4eb3293c2d81320fb1a687c5ee
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: Alright, now we have gotten in your story—in your tour in Vietnam—in ’71’72 and we talked about a variety of your activities there. And rescuing orphans at the time
of the Easter Offensive early in the year. What else would you like to add on that?
Veteran: Well, as I was departing, I did discover I didn’t know who was on the ground but I
found out in later years who it was but I did find out that the Air Force, the 2-star Air Force
general—a commanding general for Air Forces in that part of the world. It was the…I guess you
call it Asian Air Force defense system or…But anyway, he was relieved because he ran bombing
interdiction runs into—over the DMZ, into North Vietnam, and destroyed a lot of those fuel
bladders. And I think that slowed down the assault of those T-76 Soviet tanks, amphibious tanks,
very effective tank, but couldn’t stand up against our light anti-tank weapon. But anyway, that
was a travesty because he saved a lot of American lives.
Interviewer: And then there was always that tension of what one could and couldn’t do.
and by this time, there were an awful lot of political handcuffs on military operations, even
more than earlier, because the country itself was essentially disengaging by then.
Veteran: That’s right.
�2
Interviewer: Okay. And then, anything else that kind of stands out in your memory about
that second tour in Vietnam?
Veteran: No, not really.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so now you get into the middle of ’72. The offensive was
stopped and they did manage to hold on. There were some parts of the country that were
occupied and weren’t regained but they did push all the way back up to the DMZ, around
Quang Tri. Okay, so things were stabilized, at least for the time being, by the time you left.
Okay. So, when you come back, now what do you do? (00:02:09)
Veteran: Well, I picked up my family. I had orders, a couple things, and I was transferred to the
Army’s military family…what? No, not military family—college for general and staff officer
development. So, I was—that was me. I got there in August of 1970…
Interviewer: ’72 now.
Veteran: …2. And it was basically a year long.
Interviewer: And where is that college?
Veteran: That’s in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Still there today.
Interviewer: Yep. Alright. Now, was this part of a stepping stone to become a colonel or
lieutenant colonel? Or was this just…?
Veteran: It was a progression towards—for further assignment and evaluation to be potential—
did you have potential to be promoted. And so, and yes indeed. So, when I got there, I got in my
class. The class was a—there was 50 of us in each class. I think that’s correct. And we had
broken down into 4 groups. Somehow, they do that with that number. And so, we stuck together
�3
as sort of a team. And then you had within the team, you had sub-teams. So, you could say that
was a company with 4 platoons or that was whatever you want to call it with 4 elements to it.
And I think we had majors and lieutenant colonels in that class. And that was fine. Just about
everybody was a Vietnamese… Vietnam experience. There might have been one or two Korean.
I can’t remember. And so, they wanted to do things right. They wanted to tidy in and make us a
family. Not only a network of officers that could cooperate, work together in small groups. We
didn’t know that part. We knew that they were going to train us in something. And we weren’t
lined up in a regular schoolhouse formation. (00:04:27)
Veteran: And so, that went by and began to include the families in whatever we did socially. So,
we were all—pretty much all—living on facility. Had built some new housing. It was not the old
barracks. It was new barracks, in other words, for military families, not just the barrack kind of
configuration. So, I became a social…the—whatever you want to call it—chief of social
operations and activities. And so, we had some experience in that travel agency so here we have
another opportunity based on our past experience that my wife and I could work on. And we
tried to have something for the families, the students and the families, together or separately
throughout the year. So, we got started on that and there was other aspects that needed to be done
too. And so, those—whoever—each one of those elements had their own little leader. So, that’s
how we started. And then, we would…I guess our senior person was a class leader and so he
would have to report to the Command General Staff College cadre or commandant if the
commandant was interested, a 1-star, of what we were doing in all these areas to improve the
social side of it. They don’t want to lack that because you need to keep that. And certainly, that
would play into—as they were assigned to command and staff positions around the world, to be
that orientated towards having that building rapport side of the house. (00:06:26)
�4
Veteran: So, that turned out to be an adventure. One of the first things we did as an icebreaker:
traveled down to Kansas City and got ahold of their party boat and put about 100 people on
that—100 or 200. And rented the whole thing; everything. And then, so we planned that out and
advertised it and everybody signed up for it. All—couldn’t bring the children. You just had to
figure that out yourself. So, you had to get babysitters. We ended up with about 35 to 37 carloads
for all of us. And that was—some of them were vans jammed and all kinds of things. And so, we
got that ready and then I went to the military police and I said, “You know, we are going to leave
at a time when the traffic is kind of tough right on the Fort—military fort. We are going to have
to get out of here. So, I’d appreciate it if you’d just get that arranged.” Then I got ahold of the
Leavenworth city police and I said, “You know, we are going to be coming out of there and we
are going to hang up all your lights.” And they said, “Where are you going?” I told them. And
they said, “Oh, we know exactly where that is. Let me get back to you.” Alright so we get to
maybe a week later. They told me, “We got you covered. So, all’s you do is you come out of the
school parking lot. You got an assembly or something. Come out of the school parking lot and
you’ll have an escort to the boat.” (00:08:17)
Veteran: So, the military police were on the back end of that thing and on the front of that thing.
I had my two-way walkie talkie. You know, I figured I am going to get in here and talk. I had to
lead. I was in the lead car and the guy in the back was going to—I was going to talk to. It didn’t
even work. It didn’t work. It was a piece of junk. It wasn’t that stuff I was using in Vietnam. So
anyway, so we took off and the military police took us into—out onto the main road that comes
out of the post. And you make a left turn and you are in Leavenworth city. And the city police
picked us up there. And we made a right turn and came down alongside the river into Lansing,
Kansas. And they dropped off and the Lansing police took us down to the next place and the
�5
state police picked us up over there and crossed over here. And we finally got there and they had
us set up. They had a large parking area so we rolled into the parking area. And the only thing
they cautioned us: now you are getting on a party boat—you’re going to have a good time, good
food, good drinks…no drinking and driving. No drinking and driving. Gotcha. So, we got
onboard and it was a nice icebreaker. Folks got to know each other. Some of them were new. We
had some guys that were several—in a number of classes at the college at the same time. And
then, so they could get—they reacquainted themselves and we got close to each other and spent
most of the time with our little group. But still, knew some other people. And that was really,
really positive. But those other people were—they sort of showed up but it was mainly for our
folks. And but that helped us a great deal and also built some bridges for future engage—
activities. (00:10:14)
Veteran: So, that was a good start. And then the idea is when you do something like that, that
big, you got to outdo yourself the next time. Well, we had some smaller things that weren’t quite
as robust and didn’t stir up the place. We kept them on the facility or we would move it some
place and let them infiltrate. In other words, leave their house and meet us over in such and such.
So, we had a couple of things like that going on in the Leavenworth greater area. And also,
shopping opportunities. Set them up and possibly get them to discounts. And one of the things
that we had, which was tradition for the Command General Staff College, we would have dads’
night out shopping alone, just before Christmas. And this turned out to be a real challenge. I had
nothing to do with that but I was falling in line with advertising it and telling them where to go
and there was a lot. Kansas City opened the door that night just for these guys and they barred
anybody else from coming in the place. And just like when we went—I went on R and R to…in
Asia there. Where’d I go? I went to…
�6
Interviewer: You were in Taiwan once and you were…or…Did you go?
Veteran: The other place.
Interviewer: Bangkok?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: Bangkok?
Veteran: Yeah, I went to Bangkok. And you go into places and you’d just be looking around,
because I’d like to get something for my wife, and I got some nice things. But they wanted to
show me—they wanted to give me drinks all the time. And I wouldn’t—I didn’t need that. So, I
drank a lot of tea and I had maybe a drink or something. But that…I wasn’t interested in that
because of the hot. You’d get sick. (00:12:21)
Veteran: So anyway, all these guys had been exposed to that same thing. Here we go to Kansas
City, Missouri, and we are being exposed to that. They’re just looking around. They are going
and looking at dresses and things, negligees and all…who knows, and jewelry. And they had
these bargains. And oh my goodness and I didn’t realize. And two police cars were sitting out
there. They’d been through this before too. And but our guys, the ones that drank, didn’t drive.
And that was the difference. They had some in other classes. They had arrests when they got
down there because other folks picked up and did that too before us years ago. And okay, so not
on our watch. So, these guys did pretty well and all of them came back. We didn’t have anybody,
quote, missing, unquote, for a day. None of that stuff. And so, they came back and we passed the
muster of being good, whatever that meant. Our wives weren’t mad at us for…They got upset
because of the money that was spent, so some things went back but that was later. The intent was
okay but it was a little bit overwhelming. So, I was very careful when I was shopping because I
�7
was short budget. But these other guys were also a short budget and they just really overdid it. So
anyway, that was really, really excellent. But we did some things with the kids with various
scouting programs. We had the Coast Guard cutter. We could get on that and do some things
when it was docked. Sometimes, later on, my wife and I joined the Coast Guard auxiliary and we
would take folks from our class with us. We bought a 25-foot cruiser that could sleep folks on it,
so we’d take folks on that. (00:14:20)
Veteran: Or we could do something alongside with the Coast Guard as auxiliarists and we’d go
rescue a buoy that got away and was floating around in that great big Coast Guard, which was a
tow boat vessel. It wasn’t—it didn’t have storage for hauling things but it had the strength to
push barges. So, we’d go into these sloughs and pull these things out. So, they liked that. That
was kind of adventurous. We had a hunt club, a fox hunt club. No fox. And they had maybe a
couple dozen of really nice horses and so we got them involved in that. You know, we would try
to get them involved with the local stuff and then do this with their families. And we kept doing
that. And then maybe we would have something special in the officers’ club. If not—in other
words, keeping on the post pretty much. And that was pretty much what we did to keep the—
building the morale and encourage each other. We also coached each other before each exam.
And I got pneumonia before a final exam, my tactical examination. Only once. A 4-hour
examination and I got pneumonia. And I didn’t know it; I was coughing and hacking and all this
stuff. And I got—I medicated myself and I went in there like this. And so, took the examination
and I didn’t think I did well at all but I had learned something when I was an enlisted man in
1957 when I took the intelligence course. They had a model for writing an order of battle report
to teach, or help, the commander understand the enemy weather and terrain. When I came to that,
�8
I memorized all of that stuff. I just—I had a core dump. I didn’t know what I was writing but I
got it down. (00:16:31)
Veteran: And I filled all the blanks too. I was probably the only one that did that. I got out of
there. I got a B+ on that. And I was half lit. I mean, all that medicine. Finally, they had to really
do some serious thing because I had—it was in my lungs real heavy. And that’s the first time.
And it opened the door for a series of repeats in years later. Got through that. Then, we got into
electives and I got into—one of the electives I was in had to go a year long. And it had to do with
systems analyses and other kinds of things using…systems analyses and operational
methodology. Something like that. It’s an executive level think tank skillset. And what it does: it
organizes your work in such a way that you can…you put it out in a plan and you work out some
of the details of it and then you execute it, keep adjusting it here and then when this comes along,
it will shape up and you finish with what you started with. And you might not be exactly where
you want it to go but you—it’s done. When you get finished, you have a better solution than if
you didn’t organize. So, I got that done. And got through the course rather well and graduated in
June of ’73.
Interviewer: Okay, so basically you have a year—you have an academic year, essentially, at
Leavenworth. Okay. (00:18:14)
Veteran: Now, they said—just like they did in MI school—you—some people in the course here
didn’t get orders. There were several of us. We’ve got an assignment for you you can’t turn
down. I heard that before. But I had no clue what I was going to do. So, what they wanted me to
do, and these other guys, they sent us all to a different university. I went to the University of
Kansas to get a master of business administration. I didn’t see that coming.
�9
Interviewer: Alright. Was this a 1-year program that you did or 2-year?
Veteran: It was 18-months.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: 18-months.
Interviewer: So, it was 3 semesters? Or…?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: Did they have 3 semesters, essentially? Or…? So, you do fall—
Veteran: Oh no. Well, it was 2 years but I got it done in 18-months.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you finish in early ’75? Or end of ’74?
Veteran: End of ’74.
Interviewer: Yep. Okay. And now, what does your family do at that time? Did you buy a
house or they provide housing?
Veteran: I was in government housing and I rearranged some things and they have never seen
anybody come in and rearrange foolishness. They were this brand new. One of the things that
was foolish is you had a front door that opened this way, like this, and you had a storage room
where you put your gardening whatever that opened indoors. So, okay, so this is fine. This would
bang into this but you’d open it up and whatever and you could get in. But this took up all this
room. And so you—if I had a lawnmower, I had one of those push mower things, I’d push it over
here and have to shove it over here, do this, and then how do you get back in? (00:20:20)
�10
Veteran: So, that’s—I took it off the hinges and that thing opened up or came like this. So, this
would open like this and you got that out of the way and you’d go in there and open it up. You’d
go in and out so the door opened where you could get in and out direct to the lawn. And then I
put some fake—these squares, fake squares, on it and I painted the door one color and the
squares some kind of other complimentary color, but different. And I did that and I thought that
looked so good. So, I did that to the master—the front door of the house and boy the place
looked sharp. And then inside, we moved a few things around. Same thing: the faucets went the
wrong way because it would be hitting something. I changed it. So, they sent in—they inspect
everything. And we know that; we learned that in Germany. We always, every house we were in,
any apartment we were in in Europe. But we passed with flying colors. I was enlisted and now I
am an officer. I knew what to do. I mean, spit-shined everything. They looked under stuff and it
was clean, it would shine. Everything. It doesn’t matter what it was. So, they sent an inspector
over and he got halfway in the living room and he stopped. He said, “Now, I got to get my boss.”
And he said, “I’ll see you later, I think.” So, he left. So, his boss, the post engineer himself, came
by. And he walked through the whole place. Everything, even the pipes underneath were
polished. Everything. And so, he said, “I am not supposed to do this. This is a violation of every
code that we have. But you improved this place. Here’s your clearance. Good job.” He walked
out. (00:22:16)
Veteran: So anyway, my kids were involved in that stuff. I mean, they liked that. And Charlotte
was too. We repaired all the walls. You couldn’t tell where any pictures were hung. We repaired
everything. So anyway, so we left there and we bought a house in Lansing, Kansas. It was a
brand-new house. And they had bulldozed the property around it and it was clay. What do you
grow on concrete? It had no trees. It had a nice driveway. It was…I think it was 3 bedrooms. It
�11
had a bedroom downstairs and a bath and an upstairs that had another bath. I think that’s how it
worked. And a two-car garage. And I thought it was a rather sturdy house. We didn’t pay much
for it. So, we got it. And so, the whole family pitched in; everyone got involved. Now, while we
were getting pitched in, working on that, and while I was at the Command General Staff College,
the former spouse was causing trouble. I had to go to court and do this stuff and answer that
question and go over there and do this and do the other. And the—her husband would, to save
money, went and got himself a lawyer’s degree. I don’t know how he did it. And so, he tried to
represent himself and they let him do it. And everything was convoluted and she admitted to
molesting my two daughters. But anyway, during that process she was allowed to have visitation
with the children at her house. I didn’t trust that so I was very reluctant. I was upset. I didn’t
have plan B to go raid the place. So anyway, the first time they visited, they came back and they
didn’t come back with my son. (00:24:13)
Veteran: And nobody did anything. The judge said, “Is he in danger?” “Yeah.” But he didn’t talk
about value systems. They were teaching him how to be a pervert. Well, wait until you find out
what he was doing: he was doing the same thing that my dad did and he did the same thing that
his step-dad was doing. He’s an adulterer and an alcoholic with uncontrolled rage. That’s not
good. That is not healthy. My children were confused with all that and they learned how to—
accounting. My wife taught my first son, Michael, accounting and he remembers it today on his
paper route: how to account for everything, account for your money. And she helped him with
that in that process. So, he never really was long in that Lansing house. Our first year there he
was gone. So anyway, the rest of them we worked on the property. So, I went back on Fort
Leavenworth to the hunt club. Guess what they have in the hunt club? Great big manure pile.
And they mix it with dirt and then they mix it with—have to do it about 4 times because that
�12
stuff is hot. It’ll burn everything. And so, we put about 6 inches of that around the property. And
we lived there 6 years. And that—and the lawn just was—it was lush, it was beautiful. My boys
could cut it, I could cut it, my wife could cut it. It was really not difficult. And we put in a variety
of trees that were local. Even a willow tree that got 50 feet tall before it was struck by lightning
and then it blew up. It was gone. I had to cut it down, dig it out. But the trees were wonderful,
different kinds of trees: shade trees and flowering trees. And I put bushes all around and then
repainted the house. And then, we had the inside foamed. You could put a candle, in wintertime,
the candle on the dining room table and it’d heat the room. Really great stuff. (00:26:29)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And we did some other things but everybody did it together. So, that was really good.
And then they did well in school; the children did well in school. And about, maybe, in our 3rd
year in the house, we bought a 25-foot cruiser, a Starcraft whatever it was called.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And so, we could cruise the Missouri River. We learned how to fish. We’d swim in that
water and that kind of stuff. So, that was a very positive time despite all this interruption.
Interviewer: Right. And so, you said you spent 6 years in that house. Now, did you go to
different duty stations? Or were you able to stay in Kansas the whole time yourself?
Veteran: I was at one assignment: 6 years.
Interviewer: Okay, and what assignment was that?
Veteran: And that was the…I was—well, actually a little more than 6 years. I was 1 year—2
years—at the University of Kansas. Or, close to 2 years. And 6 years plus, a little fringy, plus
�13
in—as a member of the…staff. So, I had one year as a student at Command General Staff, 2
years in the college, and the rest of the time 4 plus so I had 6 plus years that were in Kansas. As
long as I was in that Lansing house, I was on staff at the Command General Staff College.
Interviewer: Okay, so now you are an instructor, basically? (00:28:07)
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Now, when I finished the University of Kansas, now I am bringing up a name now that
we heard before. And I have known this guy since 1963 or -4. But I got orders to…I think to go
to the Pentagon again. So, the commandant was a guy by the name of John J. Hennessey. So, I
went down to see him. I spoke to his secretary, “Can I see the general?” “Sure. Just a minute.”
And he hollered in, “Hey Roger, get in here.” I went in there to see him, sat down. And we
talked about things. And this is when Colin Powell was in the communication section of the
White House. He was being vetted. And the last time he commanded something he was a platoon
leader. He never commanded a company, a battalion, a brigade, or chicken. And he was being
raised up to general officer rank and also considered for 2nd star almost immediately. And John
knew about it; he told me about that. I don’t even know why he did that but he felt close to me
that he could tell me anything. He said, “What are you doing?” I said, “Well, I graduated from
here and then I went to the University of Kansas and here are my orders.” He took those orders.
He said, “Well, what would you like to do?” I said, “Sir, I’d like to—I’d love to be an author,
instructor, and do some stuff around the college here.” He said, “Do it. I’ll keep you posted.” A
week later, I got a phone call from his secretary: you are now going to be transferred when you
leave the college—you’ll be transferred and you’ll report to duties at such and such. I don’t
�14
know what they did but you know what they did. And I worked for him in the college that 4
years. 4 plus: some odds and ends added to that.
Interviewer: Right. (00:30:15)
Veteran: And so, I was teaching anything to do with management. And then I had elective
courses that had to do with computer science, team building, and some basic courses I had to
teach too that was part of the core. And I can’t remember what it was. But it still had something
to do with computers. Some technical thing. And I worked for a department and, you know, I
always had a lot of good close friends from West Point. So, my full colonel—I was a major at
the time-my full colonel was a West Pointer and he was itching to become a brigadier. And that’s
all I knew about him. Nothing. I’d see him in the morning, I’d look at him and he’d look at me.
And I did that for a while. And remember now, when I came back home, I had this new
beginning that I was in basic training, trying to learn what the Bible says. Anything. Anything.
And so, I got involved with some of the people: a George Kirkendall, a lieutenant colonel. He
was an artillery officer, I believe. And see, he took me under his wing. And he worked on
administration. I was in the teaching staff; he was in administration. So, he got me involved with
groups and post chaplain, and then a guy by the name of Jim Emmerman. You’ll hear about him.
He was a full colonel. So anyway, so I got involved with them and then they were teaching me
ethics and all kinds of things that the Bible teaches. And I started teaching these various classes
and I tried to learn some of the new things that I had learned in the core courses that I took when
I was a student. Plus, in some of the things, I got in touch with a PhD who was in the
management division also. (00:32:26)
Veteran: A very senior civilian. And he had me and a couple other fellows, 3 or 4 of us, to be his
understudies. And so, we taught a couple of—a pile of programs for small group dynamics and
�15
how to solve problems in small groups. And they were all straight forward. I mean, you looked at
things and you just sort of arranged them and you’d come out this way or that way and all of
them made sense. All of them were correct. It’s the idea—the process had to be correct to make
it—to get anywhere. He knew it and we knew. Well, we thought that was neat. And so, I started
teaching some of the things like that. Other things, you couldn’t do that because we were
teaching Fortran, COBOL. I had learned those before but I still had to teach them again. And
basic. And basic is what we used all the time but the others were—Fortran you needed for your
math stuff but the basic was good anytime. You could—and you could mix. So, then in teaching
the management courses, they gave me some latitude and but the course had to be approved. And
so, finally with that, I even used the Bible for references and never got in trouble. And Moses
was taught don’t waste your—by his son—by his father-in-law—don’t waste your time by
fooling around, having everybody come see you. Why don’t you delegate it? And I got—I nailed
that. And so, I introduced some of this stuff and then at some of the examinations we gave, it was
broken down into groups and the group had to work on something and then they get closer to
something as a solution. And then, they keep going until you come up with something. And
thank you. (00:34:26)
Veteran: And so, with that, on one of the occasions they allowed—they gave me an allowance
and I’d go to places and I’d buy toys. I’d buy some really weird stuff. And these guys are—these
are adult men: combat killers and all that stuff and whatever. And so, in one case I got Tinker
Toy sets. But I had—like every other collect—I had 4 groups. They were smaller. They were less
than 50. But anyway, maybe there were 28 of them in there or 40 or…but not 50. Anyway, so I
would give these 3 groups the regular Tinker Toys and I’d pour them out like that. I’d say, “I am
going to give you 3 questions.” And then I’d come in with this monstrous Tinker Toy set and
�16
dump it and it’d fall all over the place. “Okay, now what I want you to do, and you have 7
minutes, I want you to model yourself.” It went pretty quickly. I mean, they just zip, zip. A
couple things—the big guys, they must have had a hard time but they…model yourself. So, you
couldn’t do much with it but you did something. “Alright, now one of you tell us about
yourself.” So, he did and nobody—the rest of them didn’t say much. Alright, and this is what I
really got surprised about and it’s very, very real today. Take those kids and you’ll get the same
results. Connect with somebody next to you. “These are mine.” The other guy said, “Yeah, and
these are mine.” I didn’t say—I was getting mad at him. I had to walk out of the room the first
time I went through this. I came back. I said, “You have 3 minutes.” And all of a sudden,
they…so, they did something like that. Alright, so they did that. (00:36:29)
Veteran: Then I said, “Alright, the last question is: now, connect with your group.” That went
quickly. They really got busy with that. And not every year did it the same way. Each week—the
hallmark of this whole mess was when I said, “Make a model of yourself,” with the big ones,
they did something. “Connect with somebody else,” they took a chair and put it on the table and
put a guy in it and touched it. And then I said, “Now, connect with everybody.” And they put the
model all around him. The individual is key to the team. They got an A. The others did too
because they had rational stuff but it was different. Nobody built anything like that. Another
time, and the commandant was a brigadier and he was just a very gentle person with a keen sense
of humor, but he was dry. And so, he came in and I don’t care what you did. Here are the
questions. And I said, “You could present it any way you want. No Tinker Toys.” One guy came
in with a banjo and he was singing a song to Wild Bill. Wild Bill used to be a 3-star general that
ran trade oper—training command for the entire United States Army. Wild Bill come around
with me. Absolutely off the wall stuff that we couldn’t figure out because it was just…it was not
�17
developed. It was half thrown and grown. So, he was there and he’d have a refrain. All this Wild
old Bill, we are just going to get together, we are going to mash our teeth and we are going to get
‘er done, oh yes, oh yes. So, this general came in and nobody saw him. He came in back. I was
sitting back here and I was just…So, he sat next to me. He started doing this with his foot.
(00:38:32)
Veteran: He looked at me, he gave me a punch and said, “Good job. Tell him that.” And he
walked out. The guy that replaced…that was at my combat battalion, at the time that I was S-2
and I was leaving, a guy by the name of Louisell [sounds like], Lieutenant Colonel Louisell. He
came in during one of my—one of these last sessions. And we were getting ready for and then I
was giving them instructions, getting them ready, and we had some definitional things that they
asked before the final exam. So, he walks in and I am trying to finish those up. He said, “I got
something to share with you all. You don’t mind, do you, major?” “Oh no, sir, I don’t mind.” I
said, “You idiot.” Because I was furious because these guys were on a roll. They were getting
real—they were going like this. I said, “You couldn’t study for this thing. I don’t care what you
do, to go to bed if you get drunk or you stay sober. Whatever it is you do just know you can’t get
ready for this exam that you’re going to face tomorrow.” Anyway, so they were getting ready.
And so, he talked about how important management stuff is and this is an excellent course and
you got the best instructor we got. I don’t know where he got that from: best instructor we got in
this subject and stuff like that. And so, I expect y’all to do well. And as he walked out, he turned
to the group and said, “I don’t know anything about management,” and he went out and closed
the door and I said, “Amen,” and the place exploded. He never got promoted. He never got
promoted. (00:40:13)
�18
Veteran: But they had their exam and they all did well. So, that…so, I did a lot of that kind of
stuff and that was kind of fun and serious stuff was we had some people that were over stressed
and so I also had a—I taught the entire class on stress management. And I didn’t know anything
but I did a lot of research and I had stories. And we went in the auditorium and we taught that
and one of the former…one of the former leaders we had, the generals we had, over the school
was…he was obnoxious and he was loud and aggressive. It wasn’t Louisell but he was like
Louisell but he still had a side that was really…he meant what he said, in other words. And he
came in and I said, “Oh my goodness.” And so, he said, “Let me introduce your instructor.” He
was a 3-star at this time or something. And so, he mentioned me and talked about yeah, you got
the best instructor we got to teach this subject. I never taught it before in my life. And so, I don’t
know what he was talking about but he was in one of those moods. He was a 2-star and he was
the colonel I told you about when I was working in that same—okay, this guy left as a brigadier,
got promoted and came back. And one day, I came in and I had been through some of these
courses about forgiveness and so I decided I got to take the initiative to build rapport with this
colonel who wants to be promoted. He got one—I think he got that one promotion. And then he
got another one. So anyway, I came in one morning. I came in about 6:30 and he was coming
upstairs, came in and walked into his office and I hollered down the hall, “Good morning,
Colonel—” whatever his name, “—Jones.” And I walked in the office and I thought, well that’s
embarrassing. I just made a jackass out of myself. You don’t holler at anybody down the hall.
Whoever heard of that? (00:42:40)
Veteran: Anyway, I went home and I shared that with Charlotte. She said, “What do you call
that? Progress or failure?” I said, “You know, I got to think about it. It was progress. I was
getting over myself.” Well, I did that for about 6 weeks. Every morning that I’d see him; I didn’t
�19
see him every morning but every time I saw him in the morning, “Good morning, Colonel
Jones!” And he’d look, you know, as if nobody was there and I’d go in my little office. Alright.
Time passes and I am walking down the stairs from the second to the first floor. I said, “Good
morning, Colonel Jones.” He said, “Good morning, Rog,” and I almost fell down all the stairs,
boom-boom. And had a good rapport with him. Now, on one of these occasions, I gave an
examination based on synergy. And every—the class I taught, they all got lousy scores. And he
counted that as a training event where I would learn something. And he gave them all high
numbers for putting up with it. Oof. I didn’t know that that existed. I didn’t know that that
existed. So anyway, that was kind of fun. But he said, “This is very important because we are
having trouble coming in the ranks with stress management. We don’t know how to handle stress
management.”
Interviewer: Now for context here, now we are talking kind of mid-late ‘70s. That’s a
period when the Army, I believe, is reducing itself in size. You had phases—
Veteran: They had a riff going on that would choke a horse.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, these people who are trying to make careers in the Army, you have
to keep moving up or you’re out, essentially. (00:44:23)
Veteran: That’s…no, that’s right. And the mediocre and some of the really sharp ones were
eliminated.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, there’s—there are reasons for the stress issue beyond maybe just
the normal ones at a regular time. Okay.
Veteran: But this PhD was a good, good…he was a good source of encouragement. He’s a
mentor. I didn’t have a mentor. He was one of them. And so, that was important. One of the
�20
other thing is in 1976, I was still teaching there but these guys—this George Kirkendall—okay.
He called me to a meeting and they were having a—some kind of a Bill Glass crusade in Rona
proper and they had a group going in to the U.S. Disciplinary Barracks on post and also the
Leavenworth big house downtown. And also, the ladies’ and the men’s prison, state prison, in
Lansing. And so, George said, “Why don’t you go over to the Disciplinary Barracks. Come to
our meeting and then go over to the Disciplinary Barracks.” He already coached everybody
because he…George knew all of us. So, I went over there and I met Bill Glass and also Roger
whatever his name was. A football player.
Interviewer: Staubach?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I mean, I was with him about 3 times, a couple of places. Anyway, went over there and
I wore my bib overalls. My number was 65. They didn’t know I was an officer at all. And so,
went through a couple of days of that. It was a great learning curve and these people that are star
athletes would get up and give their testimony and then we would sit with the guys and process
that. And then you’d go to another event where somebody would do the same thing but a
different kind of a presentation, same format, encouraging guys to get out of themselves and get
into something that would give them some really hope and courage and stamina and energy.
(00:46:42)
Veteran: So, all the right things. And so, the Lord laid it on my heart to show up on Sunday in
my uniform. I was in my dress A uniform. You know, my cord and combat junk and stuff that
you wear. And I wear my bloused boots because I was airborne qualified and I used that. So, full
�21
blast he saw me coming. He said, “I was praying for somebody in a military uniform to show up
but I didn’t know who it was.” So, I gave my testimony. And that helped. And that helped me to
get out of myself but it also helped them to get out of themselves. So, for the last 2 years I was at
Leavenworth as an instructor, I was on Tuesday nights in the prison. And at some—one point, I
got close to a guy by the name of Sonny Knight. He comes from New Mexico—Albuquerque. I
think what he did is he had a disagreement with his first sergeant and he cold-cocked him and
they put him in prison. I don’t know how long. Threw the key away. But anyway, so he was in
there. And so, he said, “You know what?” after being with him for 8 or 9 months, he said, “It’d
be nice if…could you come and see me on a…you know, the weather’s getting kind of nice,
could you come see me sometime?” So, I gathered the kids and Charlotte, took a picnic basket.
They checked it all out and we went inside the compound and had a picnic with Sonny. Did that
about 4, 5, 6 times. And I always sign in: it would be Sonny Knight, his name and my name,
Roger Talmadge. Relationship: family member. (00:48:27)
Veteran: And the guards? Yeah, okay. Because they’d see me on Tuesdays too. And the chaplain
would come over there and wave. He never came in; didn’t monitor anything. So, those guys
taught me more than I ever taught them. They were reading the Bible every day. I read it when I
could but I couldn’t—I never did study it to that depth. So anyway, just the last year while I was
there, some months later after I was getting ready, before I left in ’78. Okay, so before I left, and
that was in June or July, but anyway I came in that Tuesday night and it was raining out and just
really not a very nice night. And some—I heard this voice that says, “Hey bub.” Oh, it’s a
military policewoman. I said, “Yes, captain? How may I help you?” “Well young man, you come
in here and I have some questions for you.” “Alright, yes ma’am.” “You visit—you come
visiting, don’t you, on Sundays?” “Yes, ma’am.” She said, “Well, the record shows that you’ve
�22
been coming in here several times on Sundays visiting Sonny Knight.” “Yes, ma’am, that’s
correct.” And she said, “You bring in your family too, don’t you?” Where is this going? “Yes,
ma’am.” “Well now, you marked down it’s your family, all of you, family to Sonny Knight and
he to you.” “Yes, ma’am.” “But he’s black and you’re white.” I said, “Captain, took you 3 or 4
months to figure that out.” I walked away. (00:50:20)
Veteran: That was stupid. But that’s the kind of thing—and that really helped me too because I
got some other situation that I am going to get involved in. My wife went to the women’s prison
and I’d go to the men’s prison in Lansing. I got in the big house and those guys are older than
me, all white-collar workers. I mean, they extorted some money I couldn’t even count that high, I
don’t have that many feet and toes. Toes and fingers. And they said, “Well young man, you came
to see us? We don’t care what you tell us but just as long as it’s from the Bible.” And they were
mentors. They were really good mentors. That’s a hard place to get into unless you’re in trouble.
But that—I don’t have anybody follow—I never got a follow out of them. While I was at…No, it
was later. Okay, we left. We closed shop and put the house up for sale and headed towards
Washington D.C. for an assignment not to the Pentagon but to the Army Military Personnel
Center. Personnel Management Center. And that’s in Alexandria. So, I came up and just before I
left, my Jewish boss, who replaced the colonel, called me up and said, “Hey Rog, I want you to
put your blue, you know, your green uniform, your class A uniform and come over to the
college. We are having a little formation; we would like you to be there.” “Yes, sir.” I didn’t ask
him why. And I got there. My wife is there, my kids are there. Alright, well maybe we are going
to have ice cream and cake together. And they promoted me to lieutenant colonel. (00:52:19)
Veteran: And so, my boss was Jewish. And I used to greet him in Hebrew and he’d answer back
to me in an appropriate manner. And I’d send him…what is it? Gifts for Passover and he’d send
�23
me plates that had the 10 commandments or something about Jesus is risen or something. You
know, he’d send me this Christian stuff. Anyway, so he said, “Roger, you got something to say?”
I said, “Sir, praise the Lord.” He said, “I knew that. I knew you were going to say that.” And that
was the end of it. I didn’t say anything else. So, that was that. And we still have that friend. He’s
a wonderful man. And when I got sick there, I thought I had something really wrong with me.
He’d come visit and his wife would say, “Mazel tov,” which means “Well.” And so, they were
really sweet to Charlotte and myself. So, I left them and ended up working for a gentleman in
Alexandria. He was a Signal Corps officer, a very fine gentleman. He was a Signal Corps officer
that…he was a colonel and he had commanded large units, small ones, bigger ones, and bigger
ones. And this is one of his staff assignments. And he had been in the Army a long time. So,
that’s why I started working for him. And my job was administration. In other words, taking
all—taking anything to do with computers and reducing whatever they are doing to some usable,
readable form. So, I did that. They were processing: there were 5 different skillsets that they
were asking for in the combat support arena. That meant corps of engineer, chemical, military
intelligence, and two more. And so, those—they would recruit those and vet them and study
them and recommend them to boards for a promotion or school. (00:54:32)
Veteran: And I would process. They’d come up with this work and I’d process that and give it to
them and they’d send it to the place where that would happen. And I did that from ’80—I mean,
from ’78-’81. I was in that as a brand-new lieutenant. I mean, they just shined. It was ridiculous
how bright they were because there was no dust on them yet. So, I got in—I was in there for
about 10 days and remember this—remember I mentioned Jim Emmerman? That word is coming
back now. So, I had a mission to do and so I sat at my little desk and these guys are over here
and my ladies—I had a bunch of ladies that did all this administration—and they were a hoot.
�24
Later, I moved my desk over there because why would I want to be on the outfield when all the
work was going in here? And the executive officer was here and the division chief was here, the
full colonel. And this was under a director, which was directed by a brigadier general. So, he had
the officer’s director and then these guys had combat service and combat service support
assignments, education. So, I—that happened later. But anyway, here I was sitting at this desk by
myself and these guys are charting away and they ignored me because the interaction was with
this. This people were crunching their work. So finally, the 10th day I came to work and I got up
enough guts and I dialed a phone number to the commanding general’s office, General Heinz.
Hayes. Haines, Haines. And the secretary answers, “General Haines’ office.” I said, “Ma’am,
this is Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge. I am new to the command. I need to speak to the
commanding general.” (00:56:27)
Veteran: She says, “He’s busy.” “Yes, ma’am. I still need to speak with the general personally.”
“He’s busy. I’ll take a message.” I said, “Ma’am, you will not take a message. I do have a
message you can give him though—you can give him. Tell him Jim Emmerman has sent an
ambassador to see him with a special message and it is Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge. T-A-L-MA-D-G-E.” And I hung up. Three minutes later our phone rings on my desk. I pick it up.
“Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge.” “Sir, he will see you now.” So, I went up to see the general. He
was on the what floor and I was on the 4th floor. I’d go up wherever he was. Walk in, introduce
myself to her. She said, “Just go right on in.” So, I did. I opened the door and said, “Good
morning, General Haines. How are you, sir?” “Have a seat, son.” I sat down. And you know how
soldiers are: they talk about soldier stuff. He was airborne and he did his stuff and I didn’t have
my stuff on but—and he didn’t chuck me out. I just told him where I had just come from and he
said, “Oh, you were at—yeah, you were teaching at…down there and doing those things. Yeah,
�25
yeah, John Hennessey used to be the commandant there.” I said, “Yes, sir. I served with him.”
And okay so… “Now wait a minute now, you have a message for me?” I said, “Yes sir, I sure
do. It’s a personal message and I got to eyeball you to tell you. I got to look in your eyes and tell
you this message. And it comes from Jim Emmerman” “Yeah, he was my chaplain when I was
brigade commander as a colonel, that lieutenant colonel at the time, lieutenant colonel chaplain
would call me up and remind me every Friday about what my priorities ought to be on Sundays.
So, what did he tell you?” (00:58:25)
Veteran: “Well, just basically the same thing, General. Be sure this Sunday to be in chapel.” He
said, “What?!” he started laughing. He said, “That’s the message?” I said, “Yes, sir.” “Well, I
believe it.” I said, “I got another purpose for being here. You know that?” He said, “Yes sir, I am
sure.” To me, he said, “Yes, I know. I am sure.” And I said, “Well sir, it is: I also learned that
you assess, you train, sometimes to a full retirement, your enlisted and your officer chaplains.”
“Yeah, that’s their job.” “It is but you don’t have a chaplain assigned to this command. This
command has 2500 people in it. Half of them are civilian, the other half wear this uniform.” And
so, the general said, “What? And? So?” I said, “Well, I am your new—I just came up to tell you
that I am your new senior chaplain.” He says, “Great, Colonel. Get out.” So, I left. I don’t know
how many days passed. The secretary calls and says, “I am still sitting there. And furthermore,
the general wants to have a prayer breakfast in January like all the big boys in the Pentagon.”
“Hmm. Okay.” You know what happened in January, 1979? In Washington D.C.?
Interviewer: I should…
Veteran: It locked down all of the metro system.
Interviewer: Okay.
�26
Veteran: Knocked out a lot of electric lines. Caused absolute bedlam in the city and the county
areas.
Interviewer: Was that a blizzard? Or…? (01:00:13)
Veteran: Absolutely. And 200 people showed up at our little boys’ prayer breakfast. The general
was happy with that. He thought that was cool. And what they did, the office did, ordered up
some lieutenant general—I don’t know who it was—and he came in to give a talk. And so, we
had some music, we had a guy give a little introductory introduction and prayer, we had another
guy get up and offer another prayer in Hebrew. Sing some more. And then he was introduced
and he got up. He says, “I come from the desk—I mean, the desk operations side of the house.
And I am one of the executives there.” I don’t know who would outrank him; I don’t know who
it was. But nonetheless, he was in operations. And he said, “I am prepared to give a presentation,
about 25-30 minutes, on the deterrent measures we are taking against the Soviet armored threat. I
think I am in the wrong place.” He gave his briefing and they applauded him. It was dead. I
mean, many people who really didn’t care about religion were really attentive. I don’t think they
made notes. So, he left. Anyway, I went back up the front office and I also bumped into a general
who was in—he was another director. You have the director for officers, you have a director for
enlisted, and then you had a director for something else. This was the guy, I think, for enlisted.
His name was Mitchell and he had his aide get ahold of me and so I came over to see him. He
said, “Can I be your helper?” (01:02:10)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, so we made it now to January of ’79. You have made yourself
essentially the head chaplain of the unit you are working with. And you were talking now
about having tried to stage a prayer breakfast and then an officer from another unit has
�27
now asked to be your assistant, named Mitchell. And if you can pick up the story from
there?
Veteran: Yeah. Okay, so I was the senior chaplain. I had no administrative help whatsoever from
anybody, or any juniors. So, I had to recruit those. Also, General Mitchell was a director of one
of the enlisted directorate and my senior on my side, on the officer’s side, was also a brigadier
general but he was in charge of the officer assignments and stuff. But General Mitchell put out
the word that he would— “Oh, I’d love to assist with what you’re doing and maybe coach you.”
His first advice to me was, “You’ve got to go up to that front office and tell them that you will
make recommendations. They will choose from those recommendations because you know what
the program looks like and how the flavor of it will carry the day. Sending somebody from the
deputy chief of staff of operations would have been good to send to Fort Knox to the armor
school. Or Fort Benning to one of their schools. That kind of environment.” So, after that for
quite a while, the following years I was there, I’d make those—make some of those
recommendations and it worked just fine. And we had no trouble. Let’s see now…
Interviewer: Just for reference at this point: so how long were you in that job? How long
were you at that place? (01:04:06)
Veteran: I was at that place until 1981.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: Alright, now I then received orders to Fort Huachuca, wherever that is, in Sierra Vista,
Arizona, which is 70 miles…I think it’s southeast, I think I have that right, of Tucson, Arizona.
And I was to be the deputy chief of staff for personnel and community activities. It had a payroll
that exceeded any—well, exceeded the state of Arizona, for one. It had everything to do with
�28
personnel management, civilian and military. It also had to do with morale and anything what
you could do to improve the morale of not only the military personnel but maybe civilian
personnel that were working there as regular folks, and then the families. And then it had
anything else that would come along with that, such as—well, in the morale area, as part of it,
they managed all the clubs: officer and enlisted clubs. The…what is it? The pro golf course.
They had the skeet business. Skeet shooting. You also had the only military, Army military, herd
of horses and a mule, the one that’s in the parade when the boots are in backwards of our
president when deceased. And that one is out there. And then, you also have 5 bulls that you use
for…you make a lot of money on those, they said, in your rodeos. And people pay good money
to get bucked off those so you can make a lot of money on it if you know how to handle it.
They’re also in charge of the library and the post exchange and anything else we can think of that
would be having to do with personnel wellness and so forth. (01:06:21)
Interviewer: Okay. Did you take this job?
Veteran: Oh yeah. I didn’t know what it was. It was equivalent to a battalion assignment. I got 10
divisions with over 11,000 personnel, civilian and military, working for me directly. And some
of the—two of these civilian positions outranked me. I was lieutenant colonel and they were
SES-14s. I mean, GM-14s. I should have been a full colonel. I took it. I was a young lieutenant
colonel. So, I took over that job and when I got there, we bought a house right away because
there was nothing on post. Everything was too small. I had all those children. I had 5 children by
then. And so, we bought a house with a little swimming pool in it and then set up camp. I didn’t
know how long I was going to be there. Who knows? I could retire. And then, they sent me to
school for this particular type of work. And General Elton, who was the deputy chief of staff of
personnel now, he was a 3-star. He wanted—he was putting a lot of emphasis on that in order to
�29
solidify the health and wealth and whatever you call it, progression, of our military and civilian
communities, but their families of all things. And so, all of these had something to do with that. I
was even involved with a hospital from a gentleman’s standpoint. But I had no authority but I
certainly took—I got involved with them as—trying to—what can I do for you role? So, I’d ask
them what can we do for you? Same thing with the chapel program: all morale. Your health is
important to us and, spiritually, your growth. So, I got into all of that, and even the school
system. Now, I was in charge of some things to do with the school system. (01:08:21)
Interviewer: Did the base have a school system? Or is this the one just in—
Veteran: Oh, we had an elementary school that was very good. We had a middle school
downtown and a high school downtown. So, the elementary school was something we took—we
didn’t direct anything but we just oversight that the facilities work well, the right kind of people
were recruited and competent, and also were very, very positive towards our military and civilian
family. And that’s a remote site. So, they get special attention. And he wanted to make sure that
he had that kind of an environment going on; he demanded it. So, I went to school for that and
did quite well in the course, got through it. And networked with people who were really good at
this stuff. I wasn’t in personnel management; I did other stuff. Yes, I was in the personnel—
Army personnel command there, center, and but that was pushing paperwork. Other people knew
what they were doing. I didn’t know the indices or policies but I knew of what I needed to do to
process, to ensure, the success of it based on the recommendations of those who authored those
kinds of documents and the seniors supporting it. They’d give me guidance and our people
would—we would respond to that.
Interviewer: Okay. And now, Fort Huachuca is—one thing it is stilled used for—they do a
lot of training of intelligence officers there and there’s a lot of that kind of thing going on.
�30
Veteran: That was one of the—intelligence was one of the branches that we serviced. So, I knew
a lot about them but not the process of getting them into it and so forth.
Interviewer: Alright. And how long did you stay in this position? (01:10:11)
Veteran: I was in that position…until 1983.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, that is ’81 to ’83.
Interviewer: Alright. And when you look at that time, what in particular stands out about
that experience or things that you did there?
Veteran: Well, we invented a few things. I was learning and I really networked hard with
anybody that I knew in Washington D.C. in morale welfare kinds of things. And also, financial
matters. I got close to one full colonel in the Pentagon, in these matters, and with his support and
guidance and stuff like that, we put together proposals and we won 43 million dollars worth of
improvements to Fort Huachuca. We rebuilt everything that was standing still, basically. Took
all the pools down to ground level. I mean, kept the shell but—and rebuilt those. And instead of
having 5 corps of engineer people walk around, testing the water multiple times a day, we put
these drip line computerized systems that if an inkling of anything changed, it would put the
right chemical in at the right time with enough leave time that by the time it was noticeable in a
whatever scale that was that it was watching, it would be back to it’s normal. It didn’t take long
for all of those. And we had I think two outdoors. At least two outdoors and…and one indoor
pool. The one indoor pool was an Olympic pool. We redid the whole thing. We put baffles in it
to make a difference. So, you could do—you could work your laps and you put the baffles in it
and you could work it as a measured lap. So, you couldn’t go this far but you could go half and
�31
back and still get your practice. And then, when you were in any kind of competition, you could
swim the full length and have that experience. (01:12:30)
Veteran: And the first thing I did, I started with the enlisted fieldhouse and made an enlisted spa
out of it. The officers were really…ooh, they were really…They thought that was alright. But the
enlisted men gained by that because it had tile in it, it had a great shower system for that, it had
good, good equipment for all kinds of ways of exercising. We put in an array of…what is it?
These…solar system? And it heated the entire water system for them for showers and a pool and
all that stuff. We could regulate all that. And it was just absolutely like a spa. And colorcoordinated. It really looked sharp. The only thing that the general, the 2—I think it was a 2-star
general—he wanted security in that place and nobody could figure out how to secure the place
while it was open. I didn’t have enough people to be on duty to keep them from coming in all the
doors because they had a lot of fire doors in there. So, finally I traveled different places in the
United States and I went to one place and they had these doors like you have here, with a—
handles on them. And—the ones with the push handles? And they simply put a U in it, dropped it
in there, and you couldn’t open the doors. So, I came back and we made a whole bunch of those
and all the doors were closed during what had that hammer down on it when the place was
closed. When it opened, it would open because it would be off because you had to have easy
avenues of egress. (01:14:17)
Veteran: So, people couldn’t sneak in there anymore. They came in the regular way and then
these doors would lock so they’d come in the regular way. And if somebody wanted to go out
those doors, they could go out the doors. We’d keep the U’s out of them. So, we met the fire
code. And there were some other things that we did too. But I got eaten up on that pretty badly.
The food in the officers’ mess was always a mess. We redid that color-coordinated because I had
�32
some artillery officers—I had some stuff that looked like Irish or Scotch design, whatever it is,
bright red for runners. And those officers liked it, especially a retired major general who lived
downtown. He came in and he loved it. So, he became my consultant. He said, “Can I be your
consultant?” I was a lieutenant colonel at the time. He said, “I don’t care about that. I want to do
this.” So, he helped me with all of it. We redid the non-commissioned officers’ club. He was
interested in that. And then, we redid the enlisted club too. And we made a feature in the noncommissioned officers’ club: we want you to make your profit in food, so we got after some
folks that knew how to cook well. and we started making money on that stuff. You always can
make money on alcohol. But we were trying to downgrade alcoholism and so that began to take
form. And the chapel program, I brought the Gideons International onboard. I was a member of
that already. And I used to pass out Bibles at the elementary school, when they’d come to school.
And the military police came to arrest me. So, I asked them, “Please call your—” I guess it was a
major— “please call your major and have him talk to me.” So, they got on the line and called
him. They said, “Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge would like to talk to you.” “What’s this for,
Sergeant?” “Well, he’s passing out Bibles at the elementary school.” He said, “Leave him
alone.” (01:16:24)
Veteran: And they drove off because I was authorized. Every post, camp, or station you come in
it has a guardhouse at the entrance. Betty Cottrell, her husband Colonel Cottrell was a
commanding officer of the post. He was the post commander for Fort Huachuca years ago and he
died some 12 years or more before I got there. So, she became a coach of mine, a self—whatever
you want to call it—proclaimed advisor about how to engage and assist widows. Alright, so
she’d come visit me whenever she had a case to jaw about something, especially what they
would butcher somebody—some deceased. She’d have me get involved with it. I had no
�33
authority but I’d get involved with those that did the medical side of it, where they’d take
somebody down as a cadaver and find out why they died and all that stuff. But they wouldn’t be
so mean. But whatever else that she was interested in. But she taught me a lot and I just kept my
mouth shut and learned a lot. So, what we did together, based on her meeting, went to the
commander and we created an organization called ‘Widows Information Center.’ And that
was—and we moved the military police out of that building and put them in it and put a great big
sign, ‘Stop here.’ And so, the widows were there and so the people would stop for information
and they could give them information down to the cat’s meow, particularly for families with
children.
Interviewer: Okay, so ‘Widows Information Center’ means information center run by
widows rather than information for widows? (01:18:13)
Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: Okay. Good. I just wanted to—
Veteran: Information for the world.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So anyway, that—now, for the information for the widows, she had meetings and I’d
sometimes come there or just sit there and say nothing. And she had different kinds of things that
she would have them do. Some of them were good at crocheting and so they made things. They
made blankets for people in the hospital or something for their lap. Whatever. We had many of
those became grandparents, adopted grandparents, and they’d go after our nursing home, you
know, their care. And they’d adopt black, yellow, red, China—doesn’t matter who they were—
children and they became the grandmas and they come in and help out and level off some of the
�34
edges that a family might have. Because there—we had some of our cadre were in the
intelligence business and there’s a lot of spiky stuff going on there. And the others were in a
large signal brigade. We only have two of them in the world—United States, I should say. One
of them that takes care of the east, west, and the other one takes care of the east. And so, in the
west that—those families—sometimes they’d deploy to do things to do some work in an area
that’s been hit by maybe a storm. So, that kind of stuff. Or overseas for some operations. Put out
maybe some unit has deployed and they need that set up their base operation. And they are real
good about that stuff; they are really smart and fast. And the intelligence community is the same
way; they had this support. But the intelligence school had training in a wide variety of things. I
was trained in every field they got except for one. I was glib in that. And they thought because I
was working for the post that I was single corps and they shunned me until they found out who I
was. (01:20:14)
Veteran: One of the schoolhouse buildings in Fort Holabird is named Benjamin Talmadge. He
was General Washington’s coordinator for 6 spy rings along the eastern Atlantic coast here
during the Revolutionary War. He’s my great, great, great, great grandpa. His son, Richard,
would spell Talmadge with one L. He spells his name with 2 Ls. He’s still one of us, or we are
one of him. Anyway, so we got along just fine. So, I left with the intelligence school as I did the
brigade.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And so, they tried to keep things that way but I had 24 other units—Department of
Defense or other units—on post doing some very important work. And they were operatives and
all this other stuff that was there to take care of their, either the civilians or the military, in their
regular routine daily work. So, I worked on that and tried to keep up with it and I depended on
�35
the skillset of the people who were running it to make it right. I’d get in there and mix it up and
got helped to change folks around that were not functioning. I got after people that got sick. Got
sick a lot. And one guy we relieved and put him in personnel management arena and relived him
from his job because the doctor told me, “If he drinks one more drink, his kidneys will
crystallize.” His wife left him and they sold the house and he lost his family because of that and
that broke my heart. So, I was sued for…I don’t know… maybe a 180 million dollars for that.
And I was represented by the Army and during the court case—and they were trying to figure
out what to do—and his attorney was trying to get the money because of he’d…racial stuff. He’s
one of my black brothers. We had a Bible study together and all that stuff. So, I was his relative.
Why is he coming after me with that stupid thing? So, I saw him in the hallway with his new
girlfriend and I—his nickname was doc—I said, “Doc, I know you’re here for what you think
you need to get done. And this young lady, I don’t know who she is. But I love you, brother.”
And I walked off. (01:22:46)
Veteran: And I thought man, that was stupid. But the Lord protected me. And so, that job was
made open and other folks went to fight for it. And so, that would—I recommended the 2 ladies
because they were sharp, they protected them, they covered them. So, they sued me for 360
million because neither one of them.. we got a Native American in there to run the EEO shop.
And I didn’t tell them anything. That—they cleared that before it—it was the day before we were
supposed to gather. I flew in from my next assignment. And so, they canned it. I never went to
that proceeding.
Interviewer: I am trying to understand here: why were you being sued at all?
Veteran: Because they didn’t get selected for the position and they thought I just recommended.
And the upstaff—that’s all I could because he was a DM-13 and I could recommend that position
�36
for the 2 12s or 8—anybody who qualified. And these 2 women did. They did excellent work
and I could prove it. And so, once they found out what I did, their representative, they dropped it.
So, that was 2 for 2. I said, “That was crazy.” One of the things that happened when I was there,
the Army ran out of money as far as morale and welfare and they decided we are not going to
fund morale and welfare. You figure it out on your own. I am at a remote station. How do I get
it? (01:24:19)
Veteran: How do—who is going to give me any money? So, I talked to some of my buddies in
other post camps or stations and I researched across the United States and found 3 carnivals. And
they had triple ratings. And I found one that was available and hired them. I brought in a
carnival. And then, I had—he had to make—it was for 4 days. On day 3, if he didn’t bust a
million, he was in trouble and I was in trouble. It cost me $5000 to rewire a place for people to
come and do things. I had a herd of over 125 horses and 5 bulls and that mule was…he’d get up
and anyway. Did nothing much but get up. But nonetheless, so all that time we had rodeos and
people would pay 5 bucks to try to ride those bulls. And then we put about 40 or 50 of those
horses out too. You know, 6 or 7 or 10 at a time and back and get them all cleaned up and put
them back. We’d teach them how to clean them up. And then the post exchange came across
with 10 of thousands of dollars of savings on porcelain ware and appliances and oh my goodness
stuff. Yeah. And then, they also had clothing at the dry goods side of it. So, they had the
commissary and the dry goods side of it at the post exchange provided all kinds of absolute
wonderful things. And so, I just thought to myself: that’s not enough. So, I went downtown and I
got 3 banks at half of 1% interest and I got 5 automobile car companies, give me maximum,
maximum, unbelievable military discounts. (01:26:27)
�37
Veteran: And they connected with the bank. I don’t care; buy it, make a deal on a car, and come
to one of these 3 banks. I don’t care. I am out of it. I don’t want to hear about it, I just want to
know are you going to be there or not? And let me know how your business went. So, those are
the things that we set in place while we had other things going on too. So anyway, we started it
and then the governor of Arizona sent a notice and he was mad at me because they were having
some kind of a annual event in Tombstone. Their annual shootout. And we missed that out.
Come to find out, they went to that and they came to us. Or they went to us and went to them.
And the underground silver mines were open and they had people that went there, came to us, or
vice versa. So, they really made out on our advertisement. We got a television and we got
everything multimedia. We grossed over 1.5 million dollars. And so, we got a piece of that and
put that into all the things that we were doing. We had a GPA, absolutely wonderful golf course.
We had a million gallons of water on it every night. Where can you get a million gallons of
water?
Interviewer: In the middle of Arizona, it might be tough.
Veteran: And we were 5000 feet above sea level. What we would do is I got half the water out of
the water treatment plant that had really been processed as best we could, mixed it with well
water, and then every so many months, I—when we put up—when we fertilized, we also
included in there a spray that would melt down the buildup because you always get buildup when
you mix the water treatment stuff. It crusts. So, we took care of that. (01:28:29)
Veteran: And then we had the right equipment and mowed the areas pristine. Absolutely
wonderful. Downtown golf course really got upset and we had some many stars that would want
to come to see me and I never talked to any of them. I had them go down and talk to the post
commander. Post commander called it ‘Talmadge Follies.’ And he’s the one that got rid of it.
�38
How about that? So anyway, one of the fun things, we had a female black bear show up, about
300+ pounds. And the first time we found her, one of the ladies came out to pick up newspaper
and heard this…And the black bear was drunk in a tree, sleeping. And one of us got in an apple
tree. I didn’t notice what happened to the bear if he eats too many apples. They get kind of
woozy. So, he climbed the tree, she climbed the tree, passed out and she was sleeping. I mean,
she was in a dead sleep so she called the corps of engineers. What are they going to do with that?
So, we had to call animal control downtown. And so, animal control had to call somebody else a
little bit higher than them. And they had ways of handling that kind of thing in the natural
environment. And so, they hit it with a tranquilizer and the thing whimpered down the tree and
broke everybody’s heart. They took pictures of it. Oh, there’s the bear. The bear? I don’t know. It
crashed and passed out. Put her in a vehicle, drove her up to the…to the top of the mountain
there, somewhere away from us, in that area, in the Huachuca Mountain range. (01:30:21)
Veteran: And so, everybody breathed a…it was really great. And I thought to myself: isn’t that
interesting? That was Colonel’s Row. The best garbage is in Colonel’s Row so the bear was after
the garbage in Colonel’s Row. Three weeks later, we got another call. Same bear, different tree.
Same problem, same routine: haul her off into the Huachuca Mountains. Third time, they said,
“We got to—it’s time—we might kill her. We don’t do that.” So, these guys were from the
federal service, you know, the park service. Okay, we are going to fix her this time. Put her out,
drove her to the Huachucas. And they are way down on the other side of the valley. We haven’t
seen her since. But so, that was one of our stories and we made the newspapers and people were
laughing. But we didn’t want to hurt that bear. We didn’t want to hurt that bear so we learned a
lot on that. So, we had some really fun things that happened and we had some sad things that
happened. People die that we were surprised at, that took their lives. One of them went home and
�39
there was drinking buddies and took an early morning—or, took an early afternoon off—and we
found her floating in one of the…what do you call that? Jacuzzi tubs in somebody’s backyard?
The widows went down there and cleaned the place up. I mean, they got her holed up, and
cleaned the place up. We couldn’t keep up with it. Betty Cottrell tried her best. We tried our best.
The military police tried their best. The chaplains tried their best to keep up with this stuff. These
are civilians, work for us. And then another situation…I don’t know the…I never did get the full.
I don’t understand it, but another person shot themselves. (01:32:30)
Veteran: Betty Cottrell and the widows show up. And the brains are blown all over the room.
That room. They cleaned that up. So, the family didn’t have to put up with that. That was
interesting and that was sad. And we didn’t know—you know, you don’t have—how do you
interdict those things? I am in the midst of several situations even currently but it’s different than
that. All of them are different; every one of them are different. Before I left, the last thing—one
of the last things that happened was…No, I had left. In July of ’70—no, July of ’83—I was
reassigned. And I just felt like I didn’t fit in and I wanted things to be done where you could
audit it and you could say this is an ethical, proper operation. And there were some things that
were going on that I rebelled against. And maybe I goofed up at the same time, so I have to take
that. But I was made available for reassignment and I was told my assignment was to come up
into here, Michigan somewhere, or Minnesota, right next to the Great Lakes. A cold assignment
for my retirement assignment. And so, I told my grading officer, who recommended me for this,
I said, “I am taking this that I am being made available to reassignment and I should take that
with a very positively.” And I told the 3-star general that commanded the whole outfit that
Sunday that I said my farewells to him. He said, “For what?” He was livid. (01:34:21)
�40
Veteran: I said, “I am going to work this out and I am going to keep you posted.” Well, I don’t
know what he did but I got a new rater and I got people to write stuff. I approved it before it was
sent in. What a was—that’s stupid. I don’t like that either. So, I called a secret—remember, I was
there before? I was in an Army security agency but I had single units working for me. I was
really administration but I told them what to do to keep out of trouble. So, I talked to some
young captain in the single group and that’s that same group that had combat support. That was
one of the areas that we assigned. So, they found me a job working as an executive officer of a
computer management director in the Army…Army material command. And those computers
crunch all kinds of…what was that? Barcode equipment. And the equipment is valued at over 81
billion dollars. Everything the Army has has got a number on it, somehow. And so, they
managed that plus they had small—they had logistics—12 of those little units or organizations
working for them, underneath them, and I was the executive officer for the director of computer,
like I say, management. And there was an SES, senior executive service, gentleman and I don’t
think he ever had—his name was George—I don’t think he ever had military service. But he was
rebelling because I didn’t go to war college. But the guys in the personnel Army personnel
command said, “Try it.” Anyway, so I got in there and—
Interviewer: So, where was this? (01:36:29)
Veteran: So, I became the executive officer for the…automated management directorate.
Automated—using automation to…equipment. I mean, huge stuff. And in 12 different sites. So,
but I would—for my administration, I’d help him keep his staff straight and somethings are
going funny, I’ll—like for instance, he’d get somebody going on a trip and buying—have lunch
and it’d cost $85. He didn’t like that. So, I was going to—I was a straight man for him.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what was your home base?
�41
Veteran: Home base was in Alexandria again. I was right down the street from the Army’s
military personnel command.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Same neighborhood, different building. Well, alright. So, we got started and while I
was there, I kept getting interrupted because I had to go do something and if he found out I was
doing chaplain—doing something somewhere—trying to help some of the employees. So, at
some point he invited me up to the flag officer’s—at that command—flag officer’s weekly Bible
reading and prayer session. We prayed about everything. And I was the only—I was always a
lieutenant colonel and they were either SES, according to a 1 or 2-star, or brigadiers or higher,
and the commanding general was a 4-star. I was sitting in there. And I sat in there and I went—
sometimes, when George would travel, he would take me with me to St. Louis or to different
commands. And I’d go back and visit and follow up on something. (01:38:23)
Veteran: But it had to do with handling your personnel and goal-oriented behaviors instead of
looking at it and you get the product and you don’t know what you got. You never evaluated
them; you never said, “You know you need to plan. Rog, you need to look at this harder. Here
you are strong, here you are making headway, but you are not doing a thing here. Or you need to
be harder. This is what I want you to do. This will meet my vision if you can do this.” They
didn’t do that. So, I got after them on that. Some of them called them up and they, finally, they
backed down and they said, “Yeah, I guess we need to do it,” because I was…When I…I had
been a consultant with the hospital I got involved with to stop sexual harassment. And we had
one guy from the training who reported to the medical doctor, commander of the hospital, out at
Fort Huachuca, and apologized. He was calling the nurses and some of his staff at all of 2 in the
morning, propositioning them. And he quit doing that. And I guess he was a colonel or lieutenant
�42
colonel, something colonel, as a medical doctor and he was so pleased. So anyway, I got
involved with. And so, he invited me up to that meeting and I got to know some of the close,
really serious, things about them. One of them commanded our biological, chemical and such
laboratories across the United States. And he was really grief-stricken about it because all that
stuff would kill you. And in some of the science laboratories they had this thing cordoned off and
that’s where you had your working with the chemicals or whatever else. (01:40:12)
Veteran: And then you had another chamber and then you had another chamber and you
showered and changed, showered and changed, and then came out showered and changed. And
he was afraid if any of those doors got jarred and a little bit leaked out, it would take out the
whole community. And some of it was very persistent and others were very pervasive, which
means it would multiply. He said, “No control.” He took his life. And that was a rock. I mean,
that was not a happy time. That was terrible but that rocked the entire operation. Large command
just rocked by that. And so, I was up there praying with the rest of them. And we were weeping
together. The senior man up in at Army material command was a civilian. I don’t—he was a—
also, an SES and I don’t know what rank he would have been. But he worked just—he worked
directly as the aide or assistant technician, science technician, to the 4-star in the Army material
command. Came to one of those meetings and he got a call and left. We waited; he came back.
And the report was somebody was driving down a major boulevard…I wish I could remember.
Washington Parkway, or something like that. Traveling at 107 miles an hour, being policed by
the…chased by the local police and drove through his car, throwing his wife through the
windshield. Now, when she hit the pavement, she was dead. So, he came back to us. (01:42:10)
Veteran: The guy that was arrested had an armload of DUIs. Been in jail, been sobered up, been
in jail. Was just out again without a license and I don’t know where he got the car from. And he
�43
was drunk. Anyway, I guess it was within a month or a month and a half I was still there. He told
us what he did. He and his entire family of 7 children went down to the detention center, I had
been in there before, and sat down with the guy, wept with him, and forgave him and walked out.
About a month or so later, a guy by the name of Jim Ralph came into the office. I was on the
promotion list to become a full colonel. I had to be reassigned. At the time that that was
announced, a couple of my home study Bible boy—fellows—said, “Boy, Fort Huachuca was
quiet.” Nobody was talking. So, we just left that fly. One of them was a guy by the name of Bob
Gray. Remember that. So anyway, he was a young black guy. He was a…same rank as myself.
He was one of my students; I taught him at Command General Staff. So anyway, I…George
introduced me to Jim. “I like you to meet General Ralph. This is Roger Talmadge, sir. He is
going to be promoted shortly.” He was talking to Jim. So, I “Nice to see you, sir. Hope you’re
having a good day.” “Yeah. Sure. I hope to see you soon.” Walked out. I didn’t know what that
meant. (01:44:12)
Veteran: So then, I don’t know who did it, but I got a phone call for an interview back at the
Army material—Army personnel command. So, I walked into the office and it was his office.
And he didn’t see me. I talked to his colonel. And the colonel said, “You’re here for an interview
and also evaluation. And we are interviewing and evaluation somebody to take over—be the
director of field systems.” Field—you had in house computers like in this hotel and then you
have those out there that communicate with the hotel and keep up on stuff and feed information
or update outdated stuff. So, that would be the job. Anyway, so I didn’t know it but I talked to
everybody in this little division or group, whatever you call it, because like the other, you had
brigadiers that were in charge of the officers, you had another brigadier for enlisted, another
brigadier for other things, and another one for computer science stuff. Everything, in and out,
�44
externally. So anyway, got all finished up and I didn’t know what to think of it. I had no clue
what I was doing. People were nice, they were polite because they will all be polite to you. And I
just came in the same, talking about everything. And so, I came back to say goodbye to the
general and he was still busy or out. And the colonel said, “Well, it’s nice talking to you. We are
going to visit with others and you have a nice day.” Well, before I went over there, George had
told me you’re the only game in town. I said, “For what?” He said, “Well, I don’t know.” He
didn’t know what to—what was on Jim’s mind. He knew what Jim was doing because he
networked with him. His stuff does what his stuff does, only his is on material and Jim was
people. (01:46:18)
Veteran: So anyway, I said, “Yes, sir. Hope to see you soon.” Walked out. Next Monday, walked
in, “Hi, Colonel. I am back.” And I went in my office. And so, when I got into that office, I had a
couple secretaries. One of them left me and she got promoted. Anybody—any female—that
works for me will get promoted within 18 months, at least 1 grade. She got promoted and went
and worked for somebody else. Some other lady wanted to work to get that promotion where
there was vacant. And so, she came in and she told me, “I don’t fetch things for anybody.” “Oh.
Okay. So, I fetched coffee for her.” But there is other things she didn’t do either and the one that
left was—had a nice personality, was interested in doing a modicum amount of work, and that’s
what we needed. I developed reports and I needed help with those reports. I couldn’t develop my
own reports and—well, I could but, you know, I couldn’t do that. That’s just…I had too much.
So anyway, I talked to some of the—I had a warrant officer by the name of Steve Hagen. He was
brilliant. He was a W-4; he had been around. He’s an old dog. That’s before they had a W-5.
They had just come out. He wasn’t one of them. So anyway, he’d been in this business since he
was a…and he came up through the ranks. He was in combat in Cambodia behind the enemy
�45
lines for a long time, and nobody knows that. I was on this side in Vietnam and he was on that
side in Cambodia. And he was destroying lines of communication that was vital to our survival.
Anyway, I met him. And so, we sat down and said, “We got to get you a new secretary. Well,
let’s get rid of this one first.” I don’t know what they did but she found a better job. Who knows?
(01:48:22)
Veteran: But she never got a promotion. So, then it was a lady…she’s tall, about your height,
slender. Her name is Sherry Marinoff. And she said, “Well, do you mind if I sit here and I will
just sort of look after things while you look for somebody?” “Sure.” I don’t know what to do;
they didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know what to do. Anyway, so any secretary that works for
me has got to be, in that job, had to become and office manager. Now, I wasn’t looking for a
secretary. I don’t need somebody to really bring me coffee or hold my hand or anything else. So,
she was nice and she’d bring coffee to me. And one time, when I came in and I got my coffee
and I sat down, she came in my office and put her hands on her hips and says, “You ever touch
that cup again, I’ll break your fingers.” Walked out. I said, “I think she’s going to stay.” I didn’t
know what to do with her. So, here is what happened: we started training her. Steve was training
her what he knew and I trained her what I needed help with. So, Steve would go on a lot of trips
and gather information and they taught me that interior and Steve taught me how to gather
information from the worker. And then, if I was with them, I wouldn’t go talk to the workers per
se, I would talk to the ranking personnel and keep busy so our guys could go down and talk to
the workers uninterrupted. No—none of this filtering stuff. And what they taught us were things
that we repaired the current system. In 1984-85, we solved the X2Y Program problem. You
know, where you go from 6 digits to 8 because you have to put the full year, not…02 could be
�46
1902 or 2002. Okay. Or 2002. So, we solved that. I had time to put that on the new C machine.
(01:50:28)
Veteran: They designed the physical…the physical hardware for the new field machine that you
could pick up and actually carry. And it had a communications system in it with 2…we had a
minimum of 2 satellites, or a maximum of 3, on each—wherever you put one of these devices.
We wrote a million lines of code from the bigger system and loaded it in because this thing had a
lot of capability, storage capability, and compute power to move that stuff around. And Steve
was in the middle of all of it. The physical and the software side of it, the hard and soft. And I
had a guy that was willing to assemble these. And he built the old system and when they wanted
punch cards and all kinds of weird systems and they had a million lines of codes on 11 base
lines. Eleven—I mean, 7 different compilers that were made by different manufacturers and they
didn’t agree with each other. Now, remember I have an order of battle background. I said, “We
are going to get rid of those baselines.” So, we got down to 3. We killed 2 of them. And the other
3 became amenable to each other. I’ll put it that way. And I am smiling like a Cheshire cat
because the idea is whichever one gets weak is the first one to go but these would crunch it down
so all these were the same, all the field ones. And then, we tested. We went to Fort…wherever it
was, in Georgia. And the 24th infantry division and General Schwarzkopf. Ever hear of that
name? He was a 2-star there. Very fine gentleman. Smoked a cigar, swore like a sailor. And that
was the kind of guy he was. (01:52:26)
Veteran: And so, we helped him get a blue star rating for accuracy and timelines of personnel
data. He loved it because all of his systems were catching up just by us building the new system,
the everyday system would catch up with it because, all of a sudden, these changes would appear
and we wouldn’t tell anybody. We’d announce it and the guys down here got it but the upper—
�47
they didn’t understand. And if they got it, they wouldn’t know how to read it anyway. I didn’t. I
didn’t read it, I just—they told me what it was, I believed them. You know, it was magic. So
anyway, so we worked on that and that worked out very fine. Then, the project manager that was
on retired. And here I am, 2 years into this thing, and I now have—I am now the project manager
for a 2 point—I mean, for a $4.6 billion dollar project. And I don’t even know…I don’t know
even how to spell some of the words these guys used to communicate with each other. I had
Steve and his buddies—his buddies—recruit everybody that worked for us because we had
access to the top one half of all civilian or military, doesn’t matter what their rank was,
technicians in the United States Army. And we got them from the National Guard. I had working
for them, I rated them, and the Army Reserve. So, the National Guard bureau recognized what
we were doing and knew me personally. I also worked with the office of the—you know, the
chief of the Army Reservist became the U.S. Army Reserve command in the Pentagon. That’s
now a 4-star. So, the National Guard bureau was a 4-star but the Army Reserve was a 3-star until
it was commanded by this man. Okay, so that’s that. (01:54:27)
Veteran: So, Sherry came in and we traveled around the world and do stuff and I took Europe
and Steve took a little bit with me too. And but he sent the teams at other parts of the world
because I knew the languages there, I am comfortable there. I have never been in Asia except for
Vietnam or wherever and that kind of stuff. And they trained me how to give a briefing on this
stuff. So, finally I started briefing this stuff. I come into Germany for a world-wide personnel
briefing and conference and we talk about detailed stuff so these guys could get the latest but
they learned it through their supervisor line. And their top guys would show up and I don’t know
what they do because they didn’t understand what was going on. One of the things that we did
was General Knopf—he didn’t hire me for my functional knowledge but for my knowledge to,
�48
1., build teams and love that team. That’s it. And he never bothered me. So, Sherry got to a point
where she felt sorry for him. And once in a while, he’d come in and he’d be, you know, he
worked long hours too. And so, she went out and bought him a beautiful porcelain cup and
saucer and little spoon that went with it. And so, he—she was a lovely lady. Lovely to look at,
lovely to talk to, had a brain in her head. And so, she’d bring that and put it on her desk as he sat
down. And he said, “Oh, you can’t do that for me.” She said, “You know what, you don’t want
me to tell you what I told to your—that friend—do you? Good. Enjoy. Goodbye.” And she’d
walk out. (01:56:15)
Veteran: And her husband was this tall and she was this big. And so, whenever I got in trouble
with somebody, Peter would tell me, “Tell my wife, Sherry. She’ll take care of that for you.”
Because she was mean when things went nuts. Okay, so Jim permitted us to cheat. $4.6 billion
dollars…How do you spend that stuff? And everything is uphill. Nobody has ever done this stuff
and you have to test it and make it work. It took a while for General Schwarzkopf’s stuff to work
perfectly well. I mean, because it was just as perfect as humanly possible. Anyway, so what we
did on Highway 50 coming out of Washington D.C., it’s what we called the Mill Par Building.
We rented the whole shebang, the Army did. And we had a piece of it. I don’t know how many
square foot it was. A couple thousand square. And we put 35 men and women in there with lots
of space between them. And all’s we do is once in a while—and Jim knew we were doing this—
we’d back a truck up, open up the chute and dump the money down it, pick it up, and drive
away. Carte blanche--buy what you need. And they bought the first laptops that cost $14,000 and
it had 8 megabytes of something. And then look what we got now. And so, we went from that
and we started with those and they would test stuff and send us side—electronically—side stuff
that we went in and put in our in the building system that impacted all the other desktops. So, we
�49
did that. And then, then we go to—every year, we had to defend our budget. And they couldn’t
figure out—Congress couldn’t figure out when our button was pushed to report. You’re always
ahead of time within your budget. You weren’t always this way. Something funny is going on.
I’d send a sergeant E-6 over there sometimes, or maybe Steve or somebody else. I wouldn’t go.
(01:58:27)
Veteran: What do they need me for? I am busy; I got things to do. and I don’t know—I didn’t
even know those people. do you know anybody? I don’t know anybody in Congress. And the
sergeant—and the reason they did—the sergeant, I mean, the general and Jim Ralph supported
that because they had the answers. I don’t. I’d have to ask them. Why ask them? And I got in
front of them once, a couple times, and I told them who is going to brief them when they came to
my office, these high ranking, mostly military. And I said, “Staff Sergeant Jones is going to talk
to you about A, B, N, F and Warrant officer Jones over here, or Steve, is going to talk to you
about the intern—everything in between plus G. but you have to have it in sequence, I just told
you, because they told me that’s logical and if you do it sequentially like this, you get lost and I
am lost and so please trust me what I just said. If you have any questions, I am still—I will be
sitting right here.” And so, they got finished with the sergeant and they asked him his questions.
He said, “That’ll be talked about in so and so. That’ll be talked about in so and so. Yes, I’ll
review that for you right now.” And then when Steve or the warrant officer did, they walked
away with a confidence that this system was complicated and it’s building—being built—
systematically with strength and conviction and it’s going to work. And when your underlings
get it and you start seeing the results yourself, you’ll be able to—by those clear facts, receive it
and support it and watt it or help the people so when they come into—the new ones will learn
�50
because the new system and we had people that were retiring. So alright. So, they got that
started. (02:00:18)
Veteran: Got that started. And let’s see…what else did we do…I remember one time—one time
we had to go in and we had to turn on a lot of…almost all the satellites because we had all—we
had 22,000 of those boxes out there. 22,0000 would replace all the stuff that’s in the building.
Any building in the world, we had to test. You know what the light bill on that was? $81 million
dollars. Getting back to Sherry Marinoff. I’d come back from a trip and I had a framework and I
just filled it in with a few words: this is my report. I walked away. Later that day, she would give
me the full thing and very seldom did I even have to change any because we had some basic
things that we’d been talking about all along. She had that, all she had to do was take this out,
move this over here and put this in to say this satisfies are with it. So, we got across the board
with these 22, 000 machines. We got—it was 99.6% accurate and no older than 48 hours. When I
inherited, they were sometimes 18 months old and one standard deviation accuracy. That’s 28%.
That’s trash.
Interviewer: So, what kind of data or information are we talking about here, when you are
getting this? (02:02:09)
Veteran: The information that I have on you, we’d pull it up in 99.6% accurate. And the latest
data we have when you got that new car and registered this morning. And what color it is. And
by the way, you haven’t had it inspected.
Interviewer: Very good.
Veteran: That’s nuts, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Mhmm.
�51
Veteran: Now, let me tell you what happened to Schwarzkopf. Went into—Steve had a nice
relationship with General Schwarzkopf. General Schwarzkopf would scream at Steve Hagan and
Steve Hagan would return in like kind. So, everybody was up on plane. So, went in there and
said, “You know, we have got this system and you have told us that you have evaluated yourself
and all your people reporting to you that it’s doing well for you, it’s fast and it’s accurate and it’s
usable. It’s a usable form for you and your team. And you’re getting good grades from those that
grade what you do here. We need to start developing our wartime system.” And right in the
middle of that, he says, “You can’t touch it. You touch it and I’ll have you run off this
installation.” Well, going back to the 1st Battalion, 8th Cav, 1st Cav Division in Vietnam, our
operations officer was a guy by the name of Edward Berber. He was a major in the United States
Army. At the time that General Schwarzkopf blew his top, we made a couple phone calls out to
the 7th Division near Coronado, out in that area in California. Major General Ed Berber was
commanding. “Say, General Berber. I am from your old battalion. You were the operations
officer. I came in later. I need a site to test this system.” He says, “Come on out. Let’s talk.”
Interviewer: Alright. (02:04:17)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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TalmadgeR2152V4
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09
Title
A name given to the resource
Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 4), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge returned from his second tour in Vietnam in 1972 to receive training at Command General Staff College in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. He graduated in June 1973 from Command General Staff College and then attended the University of Kansas to earn a master’s degree in business administration. Roger graduated from the University of Kansas at the end of 1974. He worked during this time as an instructor at the Command General Staff College for 4 years. During his last 2 years at Fort Leavenworth, Roger was actively involved in prison ministry. He then was transferred for an assignment at the Military Personnel Management Center in Washington D.C. By 1979, Roger had become the head chaplain of his unit. He received orders to Fort Huachuca, Arizona in 1981, where he worked in personnel management. He remained at Fort Huachuca until 1983. Afterwards, he worked as an executive officer of the automated management directorate in Alexandria in Washington D.C.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: Okay, we had got in your story to the point where you had finished your
intelligence training at Fort Holabird, Maryland and then they are sending you to college
now to actually get a Bachelor’s degree finally, like officers are supposed to have.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was there another piece or two that you wanted to fill in before
continuing?
Veteran: I wanted to recall a time in April, 1966. We were deployed and we were engaged with
an enemy that was moving and I think it was in the Bong Son area again. We went back there
several times and I was the intelligence officer and I still had my connectivity with the G-2 and
other people. And very sensitive about certain things. I counted it a real blessing that the rifle
companies were really on to it because one day I got a call on my radio that one of the companies
had shot a man riding a bicycle and he was wearing a palm beach suit. And he wouldn’t—when
they hollered, “Dong lai!” he didn’t, which means “Stop!” And he kept going and they did it 3
times and then they shot him. Well, it was a good thing they did because when they got him, they
frisked him and they got some papers from him and it was just columns of numbers and words
and letters and just didn’t make any sense. But it was in good condition. It wasn’t muddy or
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nothing. So, I asked him, “Get a runner to me.” So, it took a while but they got a runner to me
and he gave it to me and my Vietnamese interpreter looked at it and he read it. He looked at all
the pages and says, “I don’t know but this is very, very radio secret.” I said, “Top secret crypto?”
“I don’t know. Very, very secret radio.” So… (00:02:10)
Veteran: I forget what Colonel Hennessey, the one—the lieutenant colonel. He is now a colonel.
He is a brigade commander. So, I got on his frequency. I said, “Left Half 6, this is…” you know,
whatever, ‘Vitamin Pill 2.’ “I’ve got a document that you need to get from me now.” He says,
“Roger, out.” And so, his bird came in and I handed it to him. I said, “This is a top secret crypto
document. I can’t tell you anything more about it. I just don’t know. But it needs to get to Saigon
immediately because they can decipher this silly thing. I—we can’t.” So, I gave it to him.
Alright, so they have to blank all that out; just put it somewhere. So, that was one thing. And
then the other thing that I was told by interrogation: that we were in a valley and it has little
rising mountains and it had these little gulley kind of things that went up between the mountains.
And I was told by some of the folks we captured that, “Oh, we got all our storages in those
places because you never check them.” So, I got ahold of the artillery and I asked them if they
could deliver us a little support and I gave them a couple coordinates. And they hit those
coordinates and there was a single explosion. It was an artillery piece. And then there was
secondary explosions and followed by secondary explosions. And they just blew the side of
that—I don’t know what was in there but can you imagine that would have fed the bad guys
some things. Okay, so that’s recollection of what was happening in April.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Now, did I already talk about June of ’66?
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Interviewer: What was going on June of ’66?
Veteran: We were in the same general area. Back again, only this time the unit—no, we didn’t
talk about it. The unit also was a unit that was—had fresh, fresh troops. I got this by
interrogation after we had captured someone. It was a fresh unit from the furthest reaches close
to the Chinese border of North Vietnam. (00:04:29)
Veteran: And they had moved into the area and we were outgunned so we hid. I had 180
helicopters that we were guarding. I mean, that’s a large force. And it was our battalion
primarily. I think I am correct in saying that. They were some—those helicopters were
somewhere in the neighborhood and we were using them for apparently fighting the fringes of
that organization. Had no clue how really big it was. And the reason we finally got involved was
the 101st had gotten into that area and they lost a lot of troops and there was an under strength
rifle company, I think 1 rifle company, from the 101st. And I had the name of the battalion
commander but he lost control. He didn’t have any communication with him. And so, we were
going to go in and try to do something, whatever that was. So, my battalion commander and the
operations officer were doing something else and I flew in to set up the forward battalion
operation center. And I was by myself with whatever, whoever, was with me. And so, we kept up
with that and watched that carefully. But we put a bird up there with all of that electronic stuff
hanging out the back. And one of those 2 engine aircrafts that could loiter for us. So, we could
communicate—we communicated with that unit on the ground. And we were able to put Bravo
company…They snuck in and they came down at night and they infiltrated it and reestablished
where there were shallow defense of that area. It had an area down here that was shallow and
then there was a kind of a lifting area here that had backed off and then up here was a mountain
but it was some distance. (00:06:22)
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Veteran: So anyway, alright. So, they got in there. So, the next morning, we usually have a mad
minute: we take two magazines full of ammunition and just let it go out there anywhere. So, they
did that and, all of a sudden, we heard bugles. They had bugles and they attacked on line. I
wasn’t there but this was the report I got from Bravo company when I got on the ground as soon
as I could get there. (00:06:48)
Veteran: But anyway, they came assault and they smashed through the front line there and the
commanding officer, who I know quite well, was very, very astute. Commander Roy was
wounded in April and we took him home so we had a new commander of Bravo company and he
was very, very excellent. And so, he had one of the platoons in reserve and pushed those bad
guys out. And so, by the time that the dust cleared and the enemy left, because they were soundly
beat up, but they were 2 reinforced companies on line. That’s most of a battalion. And we pushed
them back. But we ended up with 239 killed that we got that they didn’t pull away. So, I got on
the ground there immediately and I knew most of the guys and I was hollering at them because
they had dead soldiers in water and we needed to use that water. I had them pull them out. They
had cows that had been shot, water buffalo, and they were beginning to stink. I mean, it was hot
and so I covered them with a layer of dirt. Don’t bury them, just cover them with a layer of dirt.
And for the soldiers that were killed, a shallow grave. Get them covered up so the bugs and all
that, whatever, wouldn’t get into your food or on your body. So, they did; they cleaned all that
up. (00:08:19)
Veteran: And…Alright, so then some of the other units came around us but they didn’t—we still
had just Bravo company in the valley situation and all these dead bodies to contend with. A lot of
equipment and some we pulled off the soldiers. We pulled off the ammunition and it has
Cosmoline on it. Brand new. And we had a light machine gun and they let me use it. And you
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just laid it on your hand and it wouldn’t even lift. It was excellent; well-made light machine gun.
Kalashnikovs all over the place as well, the assault rifle. That was amazing. And their uniforms
were wonderful. They had excellent, fine—they weren’t worn out and moth eaten. They weren’t
falling apart. They weren’t rotten. They were in good shape. We captured one company
commander and a battalion commander and another company commander was killed. So, we
started interrogating them and got rid of them quickly because we are not really fluent in that
stuff. And so, we got that off to brigade. And then, I got in a helicopter bubble. I got up about 6
or 7—5 or 6 or 7 thousand feet above the—above what was going on, trying to get an
orientation. And by then, we had—whoever was down there left of the 101st and ourselves—we
were in full strength, our two other…well, two plus almost a third company that could put fires
on an enemy force. (00:10:04)
Veteran: They were really unbelievably busy. We had 7 firing batteries, 6 cannons each, and they
were full busy trying to engage these people. They were…It was a huge—we found out they
were called ‘The Black Knights’ or some code name like that. That’s what they called
themselves. And they were well trained and their daddies must have been Chinese but they were
living in North Vietnam. And they were reserve forces. That tells you they were running out of
people. Nobody paid attention to that. And this is 1966. They should have paid attention to that.
The thing that I got worried about is they were bigger than you. Their officers were small but the
soldiers were as big as you. We had women in the third line. Two lines had attacked through and
the third line were nurses or I don’t know what but they picked up the weapons and they got
killed. And that—our guys threw up over that. We don’t like—we don’t do that. We don’t do
that kind of thing. So, hmm. Seven firing batteries and Butch Boyette was in Charlie Company.
And they—Charlie company had just come over to burn. It was getting ready to come down the
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steep slope into where the valley is and then there was a gulley here. Of course, you don’t want
to go down in there; you will become a target. And then there was a large—high ground and a
ridgeline on the other side. And he was reporting that he’s pinned down and can’t move and he
can’t sneeze. He can’t stand up and, you know, sneeze because there was one or two rifle
companies over here that pinned him down. And he needed help. So, somebody on the ground
said, “Well, get Talmadge out of the air. He don’t know how to fire artillery.” And I thought to
myself, “You idiot. Everything is firing: on the ground or standing on my head. Nobody is—you
can’t engage—you don’t have any more guns.” So, I don’t know who did it but it must have
been—the Lord used somebody. But somebody got ahold of some ship that was sitting out on the
water and I heard all of this horrible, horrible squawking and squealing and I don’t know kind of
noise twisting. And somebody said, “You got a fire mission? Over. I repeat: you got a fire
mission? Over.” (00:12:44)
Veteran: And I asked them, “Where are you?” Because I knew all the firing batteries were busy.
He says, “Do a 180. Over.” So, I did a 180 and it was only one boat out there. Hmmm…What
could they do? It’s only a 3-inch gun. That’s about it. I said, “Roger, over. I see a boat.” He
started laughing; he says, “Yes, this is the United States Ship New Jersey. Send your fire
mission. Over.” I said, “You’re a battle wagon.” He said, “Roger, that.” I said, “Where’s your
flotilla?” He says, “Do you have a fire mission?” I says, “Yes.” I mean, he said “Yeah,” I said,
“Yes.” He said, “Okay.” I said, “Can you do—can you work a 10-digit coordinate? I have never
fired naval gunfire. I don’t even know what you do.” “Roger.” So, I gave him a 10-digit
coordinate. And so, here was Butch Boyette and here’s this gulley about two football fields
away. And here are these guys over here. And they are standing up and shooting them and they
got some—they got all kinds of ammunition. I mean, they could stand there all day. So, I said,
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“Give me one Willie Peter.” Not only will that tell me that they landed in the right place but that
will set the place on fire. A little piece of that will burn you up. (00:14:07)
Interviewer: Because that’s white phosphorus?
Veteran: That’s what it is.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That’s white phosphorus. So, he said, “Roger that.” So, he dropped it in the middle of
there and I didn’t know any better. I said, “Roger. TOT, excellent fire. Fire for effectful
broadside.” Well, they didn’t do that. I was told later by some Navy guys they were laughing at
me. Well, they fired their 5-inch because they can get in there. And they—what they did, they
fired maybe one or two of the tubes because Butch told me that when it hit, it was nothing but
rocks and elbows and eyeballs and all of this all over the place. And just decimated that hill but
didn’t touch him. He said he stood up, and he’s a tall guy like you, and he went down the hill.
So, I thanked them for their excellent work and I didn’t know what—I never knew. The thing is
that bothered the pilot and myself both: I looked at him—I was a little bit closer to him than I am
to you—and I said, “What is the trajectory?” Willie Peter is different. It’s a lower trajectory. I
mean, they might fire it this way but it comes in lower. But when they fire a…with a high
explosive round, I mean it will maintain a high exit. It’s going to go through the helicopter or
under it or over it. I don’t know. I never did find out. I didn’t hear anything. All’s I—when it
exploded, I knew it hit. And it decimated—they didn’t—there was nothing there. There was
nothing left. So, they came down the hill and then I came down. And okay, so I was there and I
went up again because I—we were still receiving fire and we couldn’t figure out where it was.
And so, I had a forward air observer who had been with us about 30 days from the Air Force. So,
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I says—he was flying a little beemer. And he says, “I’ll fly around. I’ll see if I can pick up
something.” He sure did. Somebody shot at him. That hill that was all the way over here? Some
idiot shot at him. (00:16:09)
Veteran: And he flew out of there like a—he was on fire. I didn’t know what was happening.
And then within minutes, two 104s appeared and they hit it with Napalm and it burned the thing.
I mean, 2/3 of that mountain was nothing but flames and black. So, my friendly exec officer
comes up on line and he says, “2, this is 5 from the battalion headquarters. Get your ass down
here.” So, I did. “I am going to court martial you. Nobody calls in that. You had no authority to
do that whatsoever.” I said, “Sir, before you court martial me, do you mind if we send a little
patrol out? And when they give their report, then go ahead and haul me away.” “Alright.” So, I
sent 5 guys out. They come back. It took them a while to do it because they had to climb that hill.
It was all a mess. And he came back and he says, “Sir, there’s an antiaircraft gun up there. 14.5
whatever mike. They had a 5-man crew and they had enough ammunition here to kill everybody
in the valley.” And the major didn’t even say, “Well excuse me,” he just, “Huh!” and walked
away. But what happened is, I talked to that captain that was flying the Beaver and he said, “Oh,
they fired at me and when I found out what it was, that’s the only way I knew for sure that we
could get rid of the target without doing something that would really disturb you. It was
concentrated in an area away from you.” And he thought that out because he had been on the
ground with us enough to know that if he would have come in there with ordnance, some of that
might have gotten in our face. And so, that was well-thought out.Well-thought out. And so, when
I left that place, I left that and we’ll get back to him again after I bumped into him again. But I
left that place with a big sigh. (00:18:18)
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Interviewer: Alright. Now, let’s kind of steer ourselves back to the main line of the story
now. So, you finished Fort Holabird. So, when are you at the University of Maryland, then?
Veteran: I worked part time when I was at Fort Holabird. I worked in the defense index for the
whole Department of Defense. And we had over 600,000 records. We had people in
there…Douglas MacArthur? His records were still in there. We could run a background check on
him and run rabbit trails on who he knew. So, I became the deputy director for that for a couple
months. Now, I didn’t know anything. We had punch card machines technology at that time in
1966. But anyway, the staff—really brilliant people; men and women, civilians and some
military. I forget who the lieutenant commander was, or the lieutenant colonel. But I was just a
captain. And so anyway, they loved on me and they taught me everything and they knew I didn’t
know what I was—they knew I was lost. But I was going to get trained in it. So, they had a
baseball team and they were really good at it. I’d hate to arm wrestle with any of those women.
They were tough women. And but—they were also brilliant. So, they sent me off with a—you
know—all that hugs and stuff. And I got to University of Maryland and I started I guess in the
fall of 1966.
Interviewer: You mean, just a couple of months after Vietnam? Or…? (00:20:10)
Veteran: Well, maybe…
Interviewer: Or was it fall of ’67?
Veteran: Maybe it was ’67…
Interviewer: Yeah, because you had to do the training course at Fort Holabird first.
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Veteran: That’s right. You’re right. So, I had…it was the next year, ’67. And so, I went to the
University of Maryland and they were very kind to me. I struggled with the math. I did well with
a lot of it but we had differential and then integral and after a while, I didn’t know if it was
whatever. But math. And then, you worked computers. And I found out in that computer system
that if you’re writing documents, you’re publishing—you want to publish something and you’re
going to take this and you’re going to put it in some kind of format so somebody can enter it into
a document and then you publish it. Now, if you’re going to run mathematics against that…Let’s
say you had a mathematic situation where you wanted to run statistics in it. It was a different
kind of a program that would run that and a different kind of compiler. Well, they taught me how
to write computer programs in 3 different languages. I knew how to write the math stuff; I knew
how to write the word processing stuff. So, what I did—I spent months and almost flunked the
course—I spent months building a bridge between the two compilers. I’d take in a bunch of
material, information you gave me, and I’d store it, send the specific mathematical data that
needed to be calculated over here to be crunched, dump it back in the word process and print.
And I got the thing to work. I was not say—they thought I was just a freshman in it. Well
actually, no. I started off as a junior, a senior, and then I was out. (00:22:17)
Veteran: But some of the stuff in August of ’68…So, I got in there in ’67. The next year, in
August of ’68, my former spouse left; hasn’t been back since. And so, I turned myself in—
because I don’t know why she left—I had top secret crypto special intelligence background. And
I knew stuff or could decipher things. So, I turned myself in to the commandant, who knew me
from the advanced course. And he assigned me a family, a counter intelligence agent school
student. And he was a set up because he was going to be drafted so he signed up in the military
so he could not be in the infantry. So, they put him in the intelligence business. And so, he used
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to be the youth pastor at the largest Methodist church on Highway 50. And the only time I heard
Jesus in my household when I grew up as a youth, up until the time even I got in the military
when I go home, Jesus was something when you hit your hand or you went to the…you’re going
to eat something or you’re going to go to bed. And that’s it. It was a godless house. My dad was
an alcoholic and he was also an adulterer so that kind of kept things busy around the house. So, I
had nothing and I wanted out of the house; that’s why I got out. And you’re right, I—thanks for
educating me—I was 17 when I got in the military, not 16. But I wanted—I started getting out of
the place when I was 15. Took a while to qualify. So, thanks, that helped me out a lot. So,
then…So, he moved in and he thought it to himself, “Well, I better have my wife…” his name
was Bill Nairjus [sounds like], “…I better have my wife Bonnie come in and say it’s okay. We
are going to take over the household, take care of Roger and the three children. We are
responsible for their safety and that he’s fed every day properly. And he’s goes to school every
day, gets his lazy buns out of bed.” (00:24:46)
Veteran: So anyway, so she showed up. And she was a born-again Jew. She was a Jewess who
loved Jesus. That really helped my children because they needed loving on. They were so
confused with all this back and forth and noise and racket. And when I was in Vietnam and they
were in Columbus, these strange men were in the house a lot, I found out. What a mess. So
anyway, so they stayed with me and I continued on my education. So, one professor hired me to
write two international, I guess, economic courses. And I had exposure to something that might
be of assistance to him. So, I laid out a schedule of putting that together where you could start off
with A and you worked to the conclusion here. And so, he gave me some high points for that.
One guy sat down with me and listened to me about—and I gave him an oral report with all the
statistics on how to develop this surveillance in depth using mathematical tables instead of using
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computers that could zap out and could give you everything that you wanted to be able to change
the identity of different geographical regions. So, that helped me. So, I got through that course,
barely. All of them. Well, I graduated in June of ’69. (00:26:22)
Interviewer: Okay. So, you were in—now, were you on the main College Park campus
taking courses? Okay.
Veteran: Then, I was—I took some courses in Frankfurt, Germany—
Interviewer: Yeah, but—
Veteran: --for two years and then the rest of them at College Park.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, so you’re in a major American university in 1968. There were a
lot of things going on in this country in ’68. You had the King assassination, you had Bobby
Kennedy, you had riots, you had the democratic convention. A whole bunch of things going
on plus an active anti-war movement. I mean, how much of that registered with you at the
time? Were you paying attention to the news or did it effect life on campus?
Veteran: I very much had attention to the news. You had two things that you were working
against: you had the stuff going on internationally, so that was in particular where we had just
left. But I had spent a lot of time in Europe so I always kept an ear for what’s going on there.
What was going on in the United States…Didn’t really understand what happened to Kennedy. I
just knew he was assassinated. Didn’t understand why Robert Kennedy…but kept my ears to it.
There was a lot of race riots in different parts of the world, America world. and we had some
people that came in from Detroit and I can’t tell you how we infiltrated them but we did. We
knew what they were going to do before they did it. And I even—when I was going to college, I
always even got down there and I was armed and I knew how to use the—I wasn’t—I didn’t
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have a BB gun. But I never engaged anybody. I hauled some people out of the black community
who were very well-respected by the black community. And what the black community did on
the radio antennas of those ones that they liked, they put a black little flag on it and they were not
touched. So, the rioters came in and destroyed the place. Also, the SDS on campus. I’d be
walking along with my short hair cut and I’d have a business suit on or whatever I was dressed
for college. (00:28:42)
Veteran: And all of a sudden, I felt a hand on my right arm and another on my left arm. “Just
keep walking straight, sir. There’s a riot over at the—where you are headed right now to the
where the computer building is and we will take you in the side entrance. Just keep walking with
us.” They did that about 3 or 4 times. And every one of us veterans were—somebody picked us
out and watched us. Boy, I’ll tell you…You know, I was unarmed. And I didn’t know that stuff
was going on but they did. They were part of the student union. The student union kept them
informed of this. But I didn’t go to any of there meetings. I don’t know. But I do know from my
connections back from Holabird that they had a good handle on some of this stuff. Still do. and
also, I took an oath of office to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
And that’s one of the reasons why my boys are where they are right now. So, I finished that up
and then I was—I also in December—I was a mess. Physically I was really a mess. And so,
Bonnie used to call my doctor at Fort Belvoir at the hospital and ask him, “How is the captain
doing today?” And if the doctor wouldn’t give her a report, she’d hit the ceiling. So, finally the
doctor says, “Get him out of town. Take him anywhere but this town for Christmas.” So, they
took me home to Cleveland. (00:30:27)
Veteran: I didn’t know that they were scheming. They were schemers. They had women lined up
for me to meet. And one of them that I met was, you know, one of these bouncy kind of bubbling
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all over the place, round like a tear, shapely thing, and I cringed in the corner because I knew
what that was and fact is, that’s out of my house and I don’t need anymore of that. So, that was
done. So, then on the 23rd of December, 1968, went downtown. Downtown in the middle of
town, they have the Higbee Tower and they have a great big department store in that facility.
Also, the metro comes in underneath—a train—comes in underneath and they load and unload
and…So, that’s a pretty high traffic place. So, that evening it was dark and there was a slight
wind with a little bit of snow in the air. And this cute little blonde girl came right up to my face
and said, “Hi, Bill!” and Bill Nairjus came around on the other side and she looked at him and
she looked at me. Said, “Oh my goodness! You’re not Bill!” So, we went on our first date. And
we went to some place in the flats. And that’s where they still show still movies. I mean, quiet,
silent movies.
Interviewer: Silent movies, yeah.
Veteran: Not still—silent movies. And had a beer or whatever else, maybe a little snackie. And I
thought, boy this is—this lovely lady is just absolutely fine. She’s not all wrecked by—the world
hasn’t destroyed her. So, I took her home and of course Bill or somebody was with me. I kissed
her on the forehead and I said, “I will see you soon.” I just left it at that. And so, I was trying to
get in my head because my heart was going like this at the possibilities. Wow. I had never met
such a lovely woman. I’d seen some others that would throw themselves at you but you don’t
need that. That’s destructive. And I was thinking about my children too. They need a real
mother, not a vacationer. (00:32:44)
Veteran: So anyway, I wanted to impress her. How do you do that? Well, you send flowers. So, I
got ahold of some florist and I said, “Gardenias. Beautiful. A nice gardenia plant.” So, we sent
her a gardenia plant and it said, “Charlotte: enjoyed last night. Warm regards, Roger.” So, a
�15
disaster strikes the house. The flowers arrive at the Bolz residence and Ruth Bolz receives them
and begins to sneeze. Hmmm. So, she opens up the card and it says—whatever it said—dearest
or…I don’t think I said Charlotte. I left that out. “Enjoyed last evening. Warm regards, Roger.”
So, she puts the note down and she hollers and everybody in the house heard, “Roger! You have
never sent flowers to me! What is this?” You tell that—that was a double disaster. He comes
down and starts sneezing. All of them are allergic to that—the things. And gardenias I found out
is a very energetic aggravator. So anyway, they got through that and finally Charlotte comes in
and she confesses, “I met some guy last night.” “What?! You didn’t even know him and he sends
you flowers? Tell me about him.” And all she says, “Army.” And she says, “Well, when they
called me and asked if I’d like to go out with a blind date with a major,” I found out she said,
“Well, what’s a major?” (00:34:29)
Veteran: Had no clue. They were not in the military. He had been in the—he had done some
things for the government but he never was in the military so they were skeptical of that. So, by
and by, they invited—she invited—they wanted her to meet me so they invited me over. And
then they found out I was a divorcee. They didn’t know when. They probably thought maybe two
years ago; it was months ago. And I had three children. And they were very polite to me. And he
was very stern and she was more gracious, if you know what I am saying. And hmmm…So, I
left and they told her, “You just walked into a mouse trap. You know that’s—don’t get involved
with that. You’re going to ruin yourself. You have a nice life, you’ve got a good job, you’ve got
a great education and you’re going places. And what happened to your Jewish boyfriend?” She
said, “I cancelled the time with him and am spending it with Roger on New Year’s and the three
children.” “What?!” So, she caused a—they were supposed to go somewhere in Las Vegas and
she called him up and said, “I have to cancel.” And that was the end of him. And so, we went to
�16
the movie and watched Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. And that was New Year’s Eve. And so, I tell
people that on the 29th of December, she begged me to marry her, so I did. It was the other way
around. I said, “I’d like to take you with me to Europe when I go this spring or summer.” And I
didn’t have orders. I knew that I could go there but they were going to send me really to the
Pentagon and I wanted to get out of Maryland. So, she got up and walked out of the room. I
thought, oh man, I blew it. What did I do wrong? (00:36:28)
Veteran: And so—no, she came back. She put a calendar in front of my face. She says, “When?
When are we getting married?” So, we settled it February. So, we went down…we went down to
the local magistrate because I had to get her on orders in order to move the children with her and
we did get orders because the Army was sympathetic to what I was being exposed to. And
Colonel Smith at the military intelligence school reinforced that. “He’s under gun and I’ve got
him under security. And so, send him back to Germany. That’ll break the—get him out of
Maryland and Virginia and everything else.” Okay. So, we went to the magistrate and so the
guy—well, I don’t know what he said. And he said this and then he said that and I said this and
she said this and they said, “Now, here is this. I want you to sign it. Sign it your regular name
and you sign it your new married name.” So, Roger Stuart Taldmadge. And she signed it
Charlotte Rose— “How do you spell your name?” And the judge exploded. He said, “What?!
How long have you known each other??” So, she said, T-A-L-M-A-D-G-E and signed it. And he
said, he just, “Young people.” So, what I did, and this is a—they ask you questions. Sometimes
you get in a couples’ group and they ask you some kind of questions about yourself that might be
personal. So, what I—so, I told them, “Which one of these things I am going to tell you is true or
false. You know, I married this woman after—I agreed to marry her after 9 days after she begged
me? Or…” I forget; something else. And what else I said, “And the third thing is: on our
�17
honeymoon, the first thing we did is inventory. We went over to Higbee Company and
inventoried their wares that they were going to sell in there stay, their military items.” (00:38:34)
Veteran: And that’s the one they missed. That’s what we did. She had me in there and I was in
there writing stuff down and she’d get it and line it up and I’d write it down. We did that for a
while. And then—and then I took her home and introduced her---well, see the children were
there when I first introduced to her. And then I took them to…Well, I lived in Linthicum
Heights, Maryland during while I was in college. And we were going to clean the place up and
leave. But anyway, and then we set the date to get married in the end of March, like the 27th. So,
okay, so the church she had been going to, a United Methodist church in University Circle,
which is still there. So, that pastor married us. He was kind of miffed because I was already
married so he wouldn’t give us a marriage certificate. And the parents were miffed. They
thought, “You know, some couples get married and their first child is—the gestation period is a
little bit shorter than regular children.” So, they were waiting for that to happen. I didn’t know
that; I found it out later. So anyway, we got married, we moved to Germany. And everything
worked fine. We were kind of sneaky as we left America because we didn’t want to have my
former spouse doing some mean things or blocking us legally or just causing trouble like she
likes to. She was always starting some trouble. He called me up and begged me to help him
control her. (00:40:07)
Interviewer: Who did? Her new husband?
Veteran: Husband. Yeah, she married—she had to marry right away otherwise she would have
been deported. The IRS—the INS got her, got ahold of her papers, and said she doesn’t qualify.
But she got married and then they—that took care of that problem. But anyway, when we got
�18
to…We got to Europe then. Then we were able to settle down and I took command. Well, I was
supposed to take care of Army Security in Europe. All of their automation activities. Everything.
Interviewer: Okay. And where were you stationed?
Veteran: I was in Frankfurt, Germany.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was in Frankfurt, Germany. And so, that would have been Army Security AMC
Europe Headquarters.
Interviewer: Okay. And the dates when you are there?
Veteran: Say again?
Interviewer: The dates when you were there?
Veteran: I arrived there…I think it would have been June of 1969.
Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you stay?
Veteran: July of 1971.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, talk a little bit about the duties there and what you
were doing there.
Veteran: Well, you know, I had been an outcast everywhere I had been so I was an outcast there.
I had never been in the system. They didn’t know me from chicken man. The Army Security
Agency worldwide has their own infrastructure and their own click and what family and I was
not part of any of it. They had a guy that commanded the headquarters and service company,
which was a large organization that was stationed ahead and had concerns in different parts of
�19
Germany but mostly in the Frankfurt metropolitan area. And took care of all of the housekeeping
of those troops, including court martial authority and keeping the records squared away, all of
the logistics for the headquarters. Millions of dollars in property. And then the unit was spread
from Berlin to Izmir, Turkey. (00:42:28)
Veteran: That ran by the airfield in Frankfurt. The airfield there had two rotor-wing helicopters
and two fixed-wing aircraft that we used for whatever they—going to the meetings because they
had to go to some meetings in the weirdest part of Europe sometimes and it was high level stuff
that my general and his staffers were involved in. So, they were operators and I wasn’t. In
Frankfurt, Germany, not far—we had a huge former IG Farben building. It was the highest
business building in 1932-33 in Europe. And it was built by IG Farben who had a chemical plant
just outside of town about 40-miles. And they manufactured the materials and gas that killed the
Jews. They also manufactured things that we use in this country to abort babies. They’re still in
business in the murder business. Anyway, we renamed that building the Abrams Building, after
General Abrams. That honored him and the Germans were pleased with that because Abrams
was—when he was in command in Europe, was very helpful and considerate and things worked
well under his tour. So anyway, right next door to that there was a building that had high fencing
security around it and thick walls. And we had a worldwide communication relay place that
came out of…from America and it ran around the world and it came through this site. And so,
the Germans had to protect that from—nobody was allowed on the other side of the fence.
(00:44:24)
Veteran: On each of the 4 parts of the roof there, we had 50 caliber machine guns. Anybody that
got in the fence got killed. Germans knew it. When the SDS showed up, they showed up with
water cannons and they just blew those guys away from that compound. So, they would come in
�20
regularly. Now, when I had been there in Germany years ago, I was over there in ’57, as you
know, to ’62, I lived in housing in Frankfurt and I got to know the Germans and a lot of the guys
that worked on stuff. And I had beer with them and I traded things like a carton of cigarettes,
maybe I could get a gallon of paint or something. And so, those guys were still there when I got
there as a major. I had been promoted. I was promoted at the age of 30. I was up a 5%. They
picked me up and my infantry duty did that. But when I got there, the Army Security Agency
looked down upon a lowly infantryman. So, they pulled Major England out of the headquarters
in service company and put me in charge of it and said, “There. We will get him out of the
building.” So, I had a muster of all the troops. I had a signal corps company in that building, plus
our headquarters people and I told the enlisted men, I said, “If you act strange, I’ll move you out
of the building into—there’s concrete blocks all over the floor on the ground of the motor, you
know, where their motor vehicles were parked around the building, and you’ll live out there.”
My first sergeant was as mean as a snake. (00:46:07)
Veteran: The military police? First sergeant? Perfect. We talked the same language. So, I had
very few people that I knew that understood what I was saying. We started with that. Those guys
destroyed that building, between the two units: the headquarters unit and the security unit.
They’d go in there and they’d take something and they’d smash the porcelain urinals. Or, they
would take the washing machines in the building and put something in it and clog it up and it
would destroy the machine. They’d bring their motorcycles inside the building and change the
oil where they slept. They threw things out through the windows instead of opening the
windows—threw them out the building.
Interviewer: So, why were they doing these things?
Veteran: Because nobody was in charge.
�21
Interviewer: Oh.
Veteran: Once they left the headquarters, they’d act like animals. Now, I knew what animals
were. I’d lived like one for a long time. And we got along just—you see them here—we got
along just very well. But we clean up after ourselves. That’s the difference. They didn’t clean up
anything. And what they were were spoiled brats. Most of them, maybe 90% of them, were draft
dodgers. And how could you—you say, “Well, how could they get in the Army?” When they
found—when their number came up to get drafted, they’d sign up for 4 years and they got in the
Army Security Agency
business because they were brilliant. All of them had brilliant, high IQ
idiots. All of them. And I got along with very few of them. So anyway, I was and outcast.
Anybody that worked with me was an out—they didn’t like that military police first sergeant
either. So, I forget who was commanding. There was a general officer that was in commanding. I
had a polite relationship with him to start with. And they had lost over 50,000—I ran inventory.
You always run inventory of everything you have whenever you change command. (00:48:13)
Veteran: And they had never done that. And I found at least 50,000 dollars missing. And the
supply officer that was right on it—in other words, he was willing to…he was not a brilliant—
one of those smart guys. So, he was an outcast. So, we planned ways of fixing that. And what we
did is 2 things: we went and looked other places besides where we were. I had teletype machines.
What would anybody steal those for? They were outdated but they were gone and they were on
our books. Well, we found some in Berlin, we found some at Asmara and all the outstations,
because Army security had outstations that were not doing things. And they had reports but they
weren’t using them. We found everything except $5000. Everything. And the general had a…he
could sign for $5000. We wrote that baby off; got rid of it. We did that. And in the end, I got
together with my buddies; my German beer drinking buddies. I got my favorite drinking buddies.
�22
I also went to the 3rd Polizeiregier, The third police district of Frankfurt, of my city. Talked to
them; we had an understanding. Then I went to the military police and I had an understanding
with them too. You pick up any of my boys for anything, I don’t care what it is, you call me and
then we can pick them up. And then we take care of them. We don’t want them in your system
more than anything, that way we can protect whatever. If they were drunk and they want them to
say something we didn’t want them to. They said something about how they can keep things
secure, anything. So anyway, those turned out to be very…they were excellent. So, I went up to
the general and we had staff meetings and everybody would report certain things. And he had
battalion-size and other detachment-size senior officers would come in to…monthly or
bimonthly staff meetings and talk about various administrative things as well as operational
things. (00:50:31)
Veteran: One of the things is safety. And they all had these low, low accident report reports. And
mine were coming up and theirs were going down. And 50% of mine, whatever staff, was in
some kind of altercation. And so, the general called me in the office, closed the door, and said, “I
want to know what’s happening.” I said, “Well general, want it on a nutshell? You’re being lied
to. Somebody goes out there and has a fender bender, even if it’s $50, I report it. They have a
fender bender they are covering that stuff.” He said, “Dismissed. Thank you.” And he and I got
to know each other real well. Now, he found out about Charlotte. Charlotte showed up in there
and she got in the ladies’ club. And they thought she was a—they thought I was a lieutenant. Oh
no, a second lieutenant or first lieutenant. They never saw me. And so, this is a lieutenant’s wife.
And so, when the general’s wife came in and she sat down, my wife said to her, “Hi Heloise.
How are you?” “Oh fine, Charlotte. Jeez, I am glad you’re here.” The women just about died.
Because the lieutenant colonels’ wives and all that other stuff in there and they tried to go after
�23
her. And so, she turned—she turned them around and she said, “You go check it out with
Heloise. Don’t you talk to me.” And she was her own woman. (00:52:03)
Veteran: And she’d go, “I don’t want to hear your stuff.” So, they got wise and they found out I
am a commanding officer of the place and I am in charge of all of their personnel that worked for
their husbands and shut your mouth. So anyway, they got along with her but they found out that
she is a priceless cook. She worked for Stouffer’s before they froze everything. She has every
one of their recipes and fondue was the thing that was in in ’68 and ’69 and all that stuff. I mean,
’69 and ’70.
Interviewer: ’70, yeah.
Veteran: So, the general had…I had a guy, I think he was kind of a little bit…But anyway, but he
was a good cook too and so they were having get togethers. And so, the general’s wife got ahold
of Charlotte and says, “Do you have any fondue recipes? You know, I’d like them.” So, she gave
them 30 of them; take your pick. There was nothing for her to do. All she did was change one
ingredient. Stouffer required one ingredient changed so it’s never ever the product that they have
registered.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then she helped the cook with some...some things you could do with steak. And
some other things you could do with some other kinds of food and to fish. And so, then that went
on for a while. So, the general—the wife was so thrilled with that that the general was just beside
himself. We didn’t live in their house but we certainly occupied it with the food side of it. And
we tried to slow this guy down because he was dressed kind of funny. He really needed to be
focused on cooking and acting strange. But anyway, so that went along very well. Now, one of
�24
the things I inherited, along with this accident stuff, we had a guy that got drunk one night and he
went down an up ramp going from the major road into a major highway. And a tanker truck
plowed into him and exploded and killed him. So, all of a sudden, safety became a big issue. And
that’s when I had this thing with the general. So, his other people started reporting right and oh,
you should have seen their records. Mine were—he went and gave me a hug and a kiss.
(00:54:24)
Veteran: Mine—compared to theirs. And then okay, so then the other thing that happened was
we ran a little club and it was very loosely done. I mean, we sold beer and I don’t know what
else. Maybe hard alcohol. I am not sure about that part. But we had little snacks and we would
call it ‘The Speakeasy.’ Or ‘spook easy’ or something ‘easy.’ But anyway, one guy went upstairs
and he was drunk out of his mind and he drowned. I had inherited that. How do you stop that?
Well, I knew exactly how to do that. But this other guy says, “Boy, I am glad I am not down
there anymore.” He didn’t know what—they didn’t know what to do because they were an elite
class; they didn’t have to worry about trash. So, we worried about trash. We knew what to do
with trash. So, what I did is I hired some guys off duty and they were my bouncers and they
could handle anybody. Fact is, when I went in there dancing with Charlotte, they picked me up
and hauled me out of the place when it was time to go bed bye. Get out of here.
Interviewer: But in the meantime, you had mentioned at the beginning of taking over this
particular job, you had all these guys making a mess of the place and trashing it. Were you
able to get them in line by threatening to evict them? Or did you and your sergeant manage
to get them to behave?
Veteran: Well, there’s other little things that we had up our sleeve. First of all, we changed the
order of discipline for things. So, I had room leaders that could discipline to a certain level. And
�25
then I had senior non-commissioned officers that could discipline to another level. Then I had a
first sergeant that disciplined and they stayed away from me because they knew that I was ugly
and I had an imagination that would kill a snake. (00:56:13)
Veteran: So, they didn’t—and it was hard for them to get an article 15. That was us
administrative. And I’ll tell you about that later. We used it once. Once. I was there two years
and we used it once? I had a couple hundred troops in there. And I went after that captain that
had that signal outfit. Went after them too. They had to listen to what we are doing. Haircuts had
to be done right. I moved a barber inside or they could go down the street. The one inside had to
take care of them and they’d get personal care and all that stuff. This was a facility. They called
them in Germany kasernes. It was a military compound. I had about 4 or 5 of those. The other
ones were all named and I kept certain things in those other places. Like trucks, I kept them one
place and other things, supplies at another. And the stuff at Rhineland airbase was all avionics
and things like that. So, what this compound had—new name to it. And it had been around for a
long time. I don’t know what that was but it was certainly not there when I left in 1962 and it
must have been installed after that. So, I went downtown to my buddies, my drinking buddies,
and I said, “What do you think?” They said, “I don’t know.” “Do you have anybody you like?”
“Oh, we like President Kennedy. We thought he was very good man.” I said, “I think you’re
right.” So, what we did: there was a—every concrete wall has a—an indentation of a certain size.
And what they do, they build a frame and then they have a flat piece and then they paint it and
put the letters on it and jam it in there and seal it. So, what we did: we used military intelligence.
It was gray and teal blue. That’s a nice, nice combination. Looks great. So, they built a sign for
me. (00:58:19)
�26
Veteran: It didn’t cost me anything, I don’t think. And they put that ‘Kennedy Kaserne’ and they
installed it. Now, we didn’t involve the mayor. When you have one of these things I found out,
and I will tell you about that in a minute, but we didn’t invite anybody. We didn’t invite the
commander, the general, down. We didn’t invite the leadership of Frankfurt, Germany. But we—
our drinking buddies came, my German drinking buddies, and some of the other guys that
worked for me. And we had a little ceremony. And we went in and we had soda and cupcakes or
something that somebody made or bought. And that’s how we celebrated that. Years later, I
found out from somebody who commanded the unit after me. Oh. So, he wrote that down and
put it outside his commanding officer building, how the building was named. What we failed to
do is…The unit command of the general was supposed to send to the USFE, the United States
Forces of Europe, a recommendation to name a compound the ‘Kennedy Kaserne.’ They would,
whatever, consider that and they’d discuss it with some of the ambassador people. and they’d
say, “Okay, well go ahead and ask Bonn.” And you’d send it to Bonn and they think it over.
Would that be compatible? And with our society, would they be receptive and whatever. And
then they send it back to USFE. USFE send it to the United States, they’d rule on it. I think
congress would give their blessing and then it would be sent over and a year and a half later, you
might get a sign. We did it in 3 weeks. (01:00:09)
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Now, the building was a mess. So, I asked these engineers to come into the building.
And these guys are craftsmen. I mean, if the building—something wrong with the window, they
could build a whole frame and everything, put that in there. So, they went through the building
and in 1969, $20,000 worth of—minimally—minimum damage in a 6-story building. It had 2
elevators, it had a laundromat that was just terrible. It was—it stank. It was terrible. And the on
�27
and on and on story. And downstairs in the basement, they redid what I call the ‘spook easy.’
They redid that, put in a nice bar. And the ceiling was made out of you know those egg cartons?
You turn them backwards and you paint them black? Well, that was a fire hazard. I had them rip
those out and it’s still black. It didn’t matter. There were white dots where they removed the egg
cartons so that was stars at night. So, we left it. And then, I had my bouncers. And then we
earned so much money from the ‘spook easy.’ And also, I had Coke machines throughout the
command. And I’d take all the money from it and I’d use 50% of it. So, Charlotte and I created a
travel company called ‘The Red Bull Express.’
Interviewer: Alright. We are now on session number 3 with Roger Talmadge who is
threatening to be the longest interview I ever record but so be it. We had followed your
military career into your second tour in Germany in the early 1970s and you had been
talking in the last piece about having taken money from the club that you ran in your
building to help finance what you referred to as a travel agency that you had labeled ‘The
Red Bull Express’ well before the caffeine laden drink that came later. Now, with that
you—was this something where you paid for the trips? Or you just organized them and the
servicemen who went on them had to pay themselves? (01:02:24)
Veteran: Oh, let me back up a little bit. First of all, as the commander—commanding officer of
the headquarters of the service company of the United States Army…I guess service command.
Anyway, whatever it was, the…It was administrative in nature. And so, I had court martial
authority. I also had the authority to be one of the—I could approve or disapprove promotions
even though they worked in staffs that were all over the place but they were on my morning
reports. And I had to keep that current. And I discovered that the men had very high IQs, very
low interest in serving in the combat side of the Army or any other service, but they wanted to
�28
avoid the draft. So, this whatever—I had a whole company full of draft dodgers assigned, like I
had mentioned before, in Berlin, all the way across bits and partials of Europe and into Asmara,
Turkey. And so, what I wanted to do is save them from themselves. And when I was first there as
an enlisted man myself in Europe, working in the intelligence service, I really did a lot of dumb
things. I still do but not to the line that I did then. So, what I wanted to do was give them an
alternative so they could find something that would attract them and they’d do that instead of
these other things, which we will sort of touch on a little bit. So, my wife and I created the travel
service. (01:04:16)
Veteran: And that’s the reason we embellished or created the ‘spook easy’ so people would—
they could have a drink and a nice little snack. Nothing big, not a restaurant style thing, and go to
bed after their service—their work shift completed. And there were other things that we did that
was kind of interesting for them and we went a step further. We even—to get their wives or
families and take them places. And we could use Army equipment. So, that means I could use an
Army bus. But these things with them, with the enlisted men primarily, we used 55 passenger
buses to go to places, and such like that. We—one of our favorite places was Amsterdam. And in
order to put one of these things together, we had to first know how to do this. Now, we didn’t
know; we had never done it before. But we knew that there must be some way to do it. So, one of
our advisors was Amexco. And that’s a travel agency in Europe and other parts of the world. and
they’re rather inexpensive and they’re thorough and they do their really excellent work in putting
together really safe and fun travel spots that are favorites. So, they coached us a little bit and
we’d go out and experiment with that. And then something come along and we’d trade from
buses to something else and then we kept on going. So, the—one of the first places we went to
was Amsterdam. And we went there…I forget when it was. It was in the fall of ’69 I think it was,
�29
or later. But the idea was we went to a bunch of restaurants, we went—we visited a diamond
factory. A diamond factory? My goodness. (01:06:22)
Veteran: And then we went to a place where they had the goats or whatever that produced the
milk and from that they made different kinds of cheese. Oh, that was away from Amsterdam but
nonetheless. So anyway, we got into the detail of a whole bunch of stuff and collected
information. Then we went back and we tried to work out, okay, what could we do to have a trip
and you needed a place to stay, so we worked out 2 or 3 alternatives. Mixed in 2 or 3 restaurants.
And then we mixed in the rivers and canals in Amsterdam. We connected them and we would
not rent 1 but 3 or 4 of those things and we’d set up—they would tell us how to—where to go
because we were going all the favorite places that they knew that the visitors and tourists like.
And some of them were not so tourist places too, which meant that that’s where they went with
their family. So, we tried that. We were going to make that up. We advertised—we never did this
before—we advertised in the organization and it was enlisted men. And when I ran out of
enlisted men, we’d go to the 87th Evacuation Hospital, or whatever it was called, in Frankfurt,
Germany. It was a full service hospital. And we’d pick up the rehab folks as long as they were
ambulatory, could feed themselves. And we’d baby them. And so, everybody paid something but
if a trip cost $400, they only paid $200. And the rest was paid by our Coke machines in our
various facilities in Germany. And then the Amexco would give us an idea how they negotiated
for better prices in the restaurants. So, the first trip we made to Amsterdam, the restaurant—it
was 26 entrees, just samplings. And so, you’d come in and you’d sample; you’re not having a
real meal. (01:08:40)
Veteran: So, you’re not paying for a real meal. But I mean to tell you, after you’ve sampled half
of 26, you are absolutely loaded. I mean, you have too much to eat. And then they’d have nice
�30
drinks. They could be alcohol or non-alcohol drinks. And very nicely done. And you’d have
enough food that nobody got bloated and that was important. So, alright, we did that and we tried
that. So, we tried that a couple of times. And then, we ended up with 2 buses going to
Amsterdam. Had to make sure everybody had their passports and all that administration was
taken care of. And everybody had money. And so, we continued that and that worked very, very
well. And so, then we tried other little trips. We took them to a lot of castles, some very
interesting places where events took place in antiquity. They thought that was wonderful. We
took them also to the Hague and other places. We got away from Amsterdam and some really
neat small, just very small fishing villages. And then we’d go from the fishing villages to the
northern portions of where they had a variety of corporations of factories that developed gouda
cheese and oh my goodness. And the samplings there. We didn’t have to go to lunch there
because we had all the samples they had. (01:10:19)
Veteran: And there was—the people were really glad because we were so interested. And the
young people they really took an interest in because young people were coming and asking a lot
of questions. And some of them had their wives and some of them didn’t. And so, that was
superb. So, that was motivating for us. Then we’d say, alright. We took them some more
different places around Germany. And not far distance; we didn’t cross any borders
because…Actually, the Russians didn’t like us going in the different parts of the world with—
their world—with bus loads of people with—
Interviewer: Down into Eastern Europe.
Veteran: Eastern Europe, that’s right.
�31
Interviewer: Now, did you ever travel to Switzerland or did you stay just in Germany and
the Netherlands?
Veteran: We could go into Switzerland just fine. We went into France but we didn’t go east
Europe at all because we had high security people. these people would have been worth a lot of
money if you get them to talk. And so, and they knew a lot. They were very well educated but
they are also very well entrenched in our systems and how our systems worked. So, we’d protect
them in every way but they needed to keep—get off the streets and get away from the bad stuff.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, then we continued to do that and then, one occasion, we set up—we bought two
German railroad passenger pulling cars. We rented those out and they hauled those on a regular
trip to where they took other visitors from around the world to France. Normandy was the area.
And they had the guys and their wives. We took some people from the hospital on that one.
(01:12:18)
Veteran: And we filled up the train. We wanted to fill up the train; that was our goal. And again,
they only paid 50% and the other percent was that Coca Cola company, or whatever we sold out
of there, vending machines. I called it—my boss the general said, “I don’t care what you do with
that thing. That sounds like a good thing, keeps them busy.” And our incident rates started
coming down significantly. Because they’d get in Frankfurt and they’d get in trouble with
something and it was just problematic and we didn’t want them to lose their security clearance
because some silly event that they got involved with. So, this took—this really helped. So, I
called the embassy and I talked to I don’t know who it was. I said, “We are sending 2 railroad
cars worth of these fine technicians.” I told him who we were so that made this sensitive; they’ve
�32
all got clearances and they need to be really looked after and watched and encouraged and kept
away from somebody that might want to give them a special trip—tour trip—to somewhere off
in the countryside. And sure enough, they—the embassy said, “We will have somebody to greet
them. Would that be alright?” I said, “Yes, yes if you can welcome them to Normandy, they’ll be
all ears, there will be a lot of questions. And I know you have places that have restaurants and
good food.” And the guy said, “Yeah, you heard right. Absolutely.” So, the guys went on the trip
and I was very pleased because they were safe on the railroad train. The folks were very attentive
to them. And they…But I don’t know what happened in Normandy. And so, they came back and
they were really excited. And these private first class and corporals and maybe a couple of
sergeants. And here they got off the train and there’s a 2-star general in uniform, “Welcome to
Normandy! I am so glad to see you! My, what a pleasure! What an honor.” And those guys just
about died because everybody thinks that—thought that as an enlisted man, I am just mincemeat.
(01:14:25)
Veteran: This guy thought—they thought they were all 4-star generals and he was trying to greet
them but he was really nice. He was a right guy. That’s probably why he was the attaché. Really
is. Probably why he was the attaché. So, we thought that was kind of neat. One of the things that
we did when we brought them to various restaurants also in Germany, we would go to every site.
If we were taking them to a series of castles, we would catch—the tour guides would tell us. We
didn’t exactly go through the whole tour. But we went to some places like Neuschwanstein and
places like that that everybody has heard about. And I lived in those places on and off for about 6
years. On and off 6 years when I was there in the ‘50s. So, I was familiar with them but I didn’t
have the detail. I knew that they were beautiful and well-appointed and the guys spoke several
languages so you never had a problem. So, what I tried to do is link—what Charlotte and I tried
�33
to do—is link the castle or the place that we were going with various restaurants. And we’d
investigate those restaurants and we tested the food. And we had a great big plaque, it was a 2foot by 2-foot plaque. And those that they plaster on one of their—one of their windows facing
the roadway as you approached the restaurant. And it was this 6-legged red bull and it said, “Red
bull approved,” in English and they were so proud of those things. We just leaved it at the
restaurant, we never ever came back. We’d drive by maybe a year later and that thing is still
hanging on the wall. And then it encouraged, they told us later, some people drive by that place,
Americans or English-speaking people, and they’d stop at that restaurant because they saw that
approval sign. (01:16:14)
Veteran: And that was nothing. That was something we just made up out of the blue. And it
wasn’t some nationally known…So, that worked out well and so we were so pleased. But we
worked very diligently with the police, the military police and the German police, because
anytime these guys got picked up, I had an arrangement where the lieutenant colonels, the
majors, the senior sergeants, and myself would pick them up off the street and we’d get them off
the street and get them settled down and out of the danger of compromised. And the Germans
understood it and the military police understood it. So, that helped us. As far as…I think—I
don’t know if I mentioned anything else about our vehicle safety record.
Interviewer: Yes, you did.
Veteran: Okay, so that helped that because it—they helped us there too because sometimes
they’d—if they had too much to drink, we didn’t want them driving and that was one of the
reasons why our report went way down and our incident rate with it because other things they’d
get involved with. They didn’t get in any fights. They’d get in the main railroad station and then
they would be very polite instead of being weird. And the soldiers would bring each other back
�34
sober or at least if they were funny, they’d help bring them back safely to their quarters. So, that
was self-service and they were busy doing some positive things. We introduced them to some
classical music. We sent them to the border, close to Czechoslovakia. There is some wonderful
small towns down there where the music—that was written, authored, and continued to play
there years now and centuries later from Wagner and beautiful stuff from Beethoven and all the
other—Mozart. All kinds of classical things and they weren’t—these guys were regular folks but
when they got into it, they got hooked. So, that worked out well and we spent a lot of time doing
that. (01:18:29)
Veteran: Now, the other stuff I was doing is absolutely boring. But we had a rebellion in our
headquarters. The military police rebelled because they worked long hours and sometimes
double shifts. You know, after an 8-hour shift, you run another one because you’re short or
something is happening and they were not treated with respect. And the general wanted that: he
wanted everyone to be respect. You know, find out what was going on. And so, one evening they
were—I was tipped off they were meeting in the conference room where the officers and they’d
have their officers have meetings for the staff. So, I walked in, I took my jacket off and said, “I
am Roger. What’s your name? I want to know what’s going on.” And at first, they were scared,
they didn’t know if they should run. And they told me what was going on. It was small stuff.
Small stuff that communicated, you know, you are valuable and we need you and you’re not
doing what I am doing because you do it and you’re called to do it and you’re trained and I am
not. and that—I could have been the lieutenant colonel saying that, I could have been one of the
majors, I could have been a command soldier major. But they needed these guys to do work well
and not be a forgotten entity because they were administrators and they are low grade. Well, that
spooled into some really great things. I mean, I bump into them even now and it’s still Roger but
�35
we respect each other. But they really looked after me too. I mean, there is nothing I couldn’t
need. My car messed up and so I took it to one of my kasernes and my supply sergeant, who used
to go with us on these trips to get them ready, he got some guys together and they rebuilt my ’67
Chevrolet motor and it ran well. (01:20:25)
Veteran: And then it blew up so I got rid of it and got a new one, a Volkswagen bus. But they
were trying to help out and so I paid for all the parts and I tried to pay them. They wouldn’t have
it; they were insulted that I would even dare and suggest such a thing. So, I had to move our—I
was told I had to move quickly in June or July of 1971. And they wanted to send me back to the
United States to do some work in the Pentagon because of my background training in computer
science. And I told them that we were moving our headquarters from Frankfurt, Germany to
Augsburg because they were consolidating some of the Army Security Agency assets and they
wanted to have a composite site that would function for all of your—from that location. And it
had lots of ground around it to facilitate this. And what I found out, okay, when they lost $50,000
worth of equipment and they had a poor job of keeping up with it, I had everything marked and I
had it barcoded so if it got lost and anybody else got it, we could find it. I did that to the office
too because those clever people, they thought just because I was sleeping in this office building
across the street, I’d go into one office and inventory it and then the next day, they knew the next
office to be inventoried was coming up. So, when I left the place, they would move the stuff over
here to the other place. And so, I was inventorying the same stuff the next day. So, what we did,
we took a—I would still have my hands on that computer outfit so I worked up a barcode system
for everything. I went back and I’d start all over again. And all of a sudden, the furniture wasn’t
moving and we found out where the holes were. (01:22:31)
�36
Veteran: Once we got that done, then we started working on some other smaller equipment,
which was very vital to our operation and got that done. And then what we wanted to do is then
as we got ready to go to Augsburg, we put them in our trucks. And I had a guy that had a sheet
that—inventory of what’s going on, what series of barcodes went into that vehicle. And they
wanted to ship me out of the place. I said, “No, I can’t do it. I am not going. I am helping the
general.” And the people in Washington D.C. and the Army Security Agency headquarters said,
“Well, let’s retire him if he doesn’t want to go to the assignment we’ve got for him.” So, the
general got online and says, “Blow it out your backside. We got to move and we got to move
which makes sense.” Because you take this truck and you unload it in in an orderly fashion. You
don’t lose anything and your inventory is up and you have it right here and you can double check
it. And then you come back to Frankfurt and you load another truck or railroad car. It doesn’t
matter. But there’s always a sergeant there that’s going to inventory that stuff. So, we stayed for
that and then I left. In the meantime, some things changed. I got ahold of my military intelligence
branch and I said, “They are making me available.” They sent me to Vietnam a second tour. And
so, I arrived in Vietnam I think in July of 1971.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you got yourself out of the Pentagon assignment entirely at that
point? (01:24:14)
Veteran: That’s the second time I did it. First time was to go to Germany. Second time was to go
anywhere.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It didn’t matter.
�37
Interviewer: Alright. Now, but they still needed people…I mean, ’71 they are drawing
down. Vietnamization is going on but they needed people with your kind of specialization?
Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, they needed—they were looking for people to work it. I found out later I didn’t
go to a combat unit. I figured I would. I didn’t go. I was wearing my military intelligence brass. I
was getting into military intelligence, if you will, direct or unassigned assignment. And the
unassigned assignment was these are round out assignments, management assignments out of the
normal course of your travel or career development. So, that’s what this was.
Interviewer: Okay. Were you still a major at this point? Or you—
Veteran: Yeah, yeah, I just made major. I made major after five and a half years being a
lieutenant, second lieutenant.
Interviewer: Okay, because you were a major back when you met your wife, right? I think
that was—
Veteran: I had just been promoted in October of ’58. I was promoted to major and I met her in
December.
Interviewer: ’68. ’68.
Veteran: ’68.
Interviewer: Yep. Okay,
Veteran: ’68.
Interviewer: There we go. Okay. Alright, so now what does—you’re going to Vietnam.
What does your wife do?
�38
Veteran: That was a problem because we still had the—we had 4 children then. Andrew was
born the first of our 4 boys. And I still had a son and 2 daughters from the first marriage. I had
custody of the children and my wife signed up to raise them. So, we coordinated with the Army
and what the Army did is they stationed her in Salina, Kansas, which was at a former B-49
bomber shaped…No, what’s…Anyway—
Interviewer: Strategic Air Command? Or…? (01:26:21)
Veteran: Yeah, that. Thank you. Strategic Air Command site. And it was still operational for
training purposes. In other words, people would come in and use it and leave. But there was no—
there was nothing there. Nothing in the hangars. So, they were put in a home, a nice home for the
family, and a nice community. She got in with the ladies and we knew the base commander at
that site was Lieutenant Colonel Prince and we knew him from Germany because he counseled
us with the family because he knew the situation, why I was there early with her and I wanted to
make sure that we had counseling for the children and ourselves as we needed it. So, I let him
know…I let him know that I am leaving and he said, “Okay. That’s good and we will take care
of them like we did in Germany.” And so, they knew him; that was easy. And so, she set up
housekeeping. I purchased—I took my…I bought a brand new 1971 Chevy station wagon and
the reason I am saying that: I wanted her to have some good transportation. And there’s a little
story behind that that will come back later. Okay, so she had a new car and the place was superb.
The schools were fine also. So then, I departed for Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright. And now, where are you sent to in Vietnam? (01:28:03)
Veteran: I am sent to Saigon itself. And I was part of the…it was the Army’s major command in
that area for Vietnam and…
�39
Interviewer: Well, there’s the MACV, Military Assistance—MACV: Military Assistance
Command Vietnam. That’s the main operation.
Veteran: That’s the over—
Interviewer: That’s the overall one, yeah.
Veteran: That’s it. And then specifically, I was assigned to the embassy and I worked in U-S-AI-D, USAID: United States America—
Interviewer: Agency for International Development.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was in facility two. And I was in the management directory. My boss was a
retired brigadier. I think he was in armor. And—but he was a—one of the embassy—had an
embassy rating, whatever grade, I don’t know what it was. What it would have been—it’d have
been a high level, a senior officer within the embassy complex. And our job was to fund, find
funding, or at least get budgets, work with budgets, in such a way that everything was
accountable. So, we could—whatever monies the embassy received and if it was in an area of
construction, we could see what was allocated. And allocated and follow the trail from beginning
to end and be able to report on that in a sensible way. That means that the director would go to
the upline with those reports, maybe using one of us as the source. Of course, we went on—we
visited the sites sometimes when necessary. So, we built field hospitals and those field hospitals
were kind of unique in a sense that they weren’t manned by American personnel. They came
�40
from Australia. Australia sent in military personnel: surgeons and doctors and nurses and all
kinds of things. (01:30:23)
Veteran: And but they didn’t bring any guns. And so, they got in there so we traveled around,
we’d visit those hospitals as they were operating and give a report on that. So, the money was
used to pay for that but also to run, to operate the thing later on. Now, we also a lot of equipment
came in there and we wanted to see it operational. And if something wasn’t operational, we
wanted to replace it if it couldn’t be repaired. So, it would be state of the art and operational. And
we had people come in there from Cambodia, everywhere, Laos, different places. They would
come in. That was where they could walk in or somehow get into our area of Vietnam, which
would have been III Corps, which is the Saigon complex. And of course, we took care of the
babies and any surgery from the folks that were living in that general area. I think if somebody
were even the enemy that got hurt or banged up or torn up or whatever, they would try to help
them and transfer them to where the next place they should go as they regained their health. So,
today it was one of those efforts that it was inclusive instead of exclusive and it also was wellrounded with the proper attitude towards life. And we liked that. We’d build airfields, we’d build
secure compounds for units to operate their logistics function. We also paid for Air America.
Interviewer: Can you explain what that was? I know what that was but can you explain
what that was. (01:32:12)
Veteran: Well, we had two kinds of airplanes. We had the silver kind to travel around the
countryside and they were our day time operation and they were kind of out in the open but they
handled our essential travel of our embassy personnel, military personnel, as the embassy
coordinated to accomplish anything within the, I guess you could say, Asian part of the world.
The black aircraft were cargo and personnel carriers and they went to unexplained places at night
�41
and the next day they’d come back at night and we cleaned them up—had them cleaned up—and
they were parked mostly at the Tan Son Nhut Air Base, which is just on the outskirts of…
Interviewer: Saigon.
Veteran: Saigon. I lived in two places. The first place I lived was in 5 oceans. It was a bachelor
hotel, if you will. And we were contiguous to an outdoor shopping center for Vietnamese. And
it’s amazing who came in there. We—I don’t know who, but it is still there today. And all kinds
of materials would come in there and the reason why it was important to us: because it was a real
interesting and easy place for them to get somebody in there that could blow something up. And
maybe disturb the Vietnamese but mostly disturb us. So, we had security on our facilities that
was very strong. It was American as well as the Vietnamese security forces. And in this complex
marketing area, we had them there too. And we had them in these little towers that didn’t rise but
maybe a half a story and they were strategically located throughout the entire shopping center
area. (01:34:22)
Veteran: And at night, I know when I was on duty, I really thought that some of those guys were
sleeping so I’d throw rocks at those tin roof things and they’d make a horrible noise and I’d hear
some guy, “Ahhh!” falling out of his chair. I don’t know if he was sleeping but I wasn’t going to
let him sleep because that was dangerous. And we had other hotels that didn’t have that kind of
connection so their security was more direct and evolvable. And then later on, I was moved out
to near Tan Son Nhut, near the air base, so that security was a change We had security around
our hotel but we were also within blocks of the security that was around that Tan Son Nhut. And
that was important to us likewise. My buddy and I had earned some extra money. I kept—I sent
all my money home. So, I earned some extra money running the movie house at night and that’s
how I lived off the month. So, if I didn’t—if I ran out of money, well I didn’t eat anything. And I
�42
liked those little twisty cigars. I smoked one of those once in a while. The food was excellent.
We had it in different places and it was cooked by a mixed staff but I think they did a really
superb job. And so, that was kind of neat how that worked.
Interviewer: So, what’s the time span when you were there? So, July, ’71 to July, ’72?
Or…? (01:36:03)
Veteran: I was there from July, ’71 to July, ’72.
Interviewer: Okay. So, one-year tour. Okay. Now, a variety of things happened during that
time span, including the Easter Offensive in ’72. I think things had been relatively quiet
militarily much of ’71. No big campaigns except for Lam Son 719 in the north. But did
you—did things stay pretty much the same in terms of how you observed the way the war
was going or the way your job worked? Or did you notice changes over time?
Veteran: There were changes and they were predictable. We just didn’t know where. We knew
that when the New Year came and Tet, translate that into a time where the Orient is in some kind
of a mode of expansion and assuring themselves and in this case, they’d start…They’d start huge
amounts of personnel in the various areas, concentrated, and it had been happening everywhere. I
mean, I was over there ’66 when it’s the turn of the years, around January time frame. And they
came—they were coming over the border in different places and coming at us. And other places
were kind of blank. So, they had concentrations. And over the years ’67, ’68, almost decimated
the country. All the beautiful, wonderful religious architecture and other things that made
Vietnam very unique were destroyed. And then in ’69 and ’70 and ’71, and then I got in there
after that in July. But that—certainly in January and February, hear they come again. And they
were coming out of—this time, they were coming pretty heavy over the DMZ so they were
�43
coming out of North Vietnam, into South Vietnam and instead of 2 or 3, they had more troops to
help them. And also, they came across at some time around that time or after with tanks, T-76s.
Interviewer: Well, that was a big offensive in the spring, so it would have been after Tet.
There I mean—they call it the Easter Offensive because it is when it happened. And
that’s— (01:38:32)
Veteran: March. March or April.
Interviewer: Yeah. And they came in with heavy force, which was really something new, in
part because the American presence was a lot lighter than it used to be.
Veteran: That’s right. And also, it made our protection of these orphanages vulnerable. Now, the
Catholic Relief Society? We funded them. We gave them everything they needed. They needed a
truck, a car, whatever, vehicles, food, anything, we provided. We didn’t provide them any real
security. They might have had maybe one or two folks there or maybe more. I am not sure about
that but I do know that those are important to us and we had them marked and we would debrief
with their leadership and I was part of that. It was about that time, about March or April, that I
became the director of refugee operations for the embassy. And what they did, because of us
military, whenever the got short, somebody transferred out because I am sure it was over after,
whatever, 3 years while we would be the interim. We would cover the position as long as we
were supported by our upline. And so, our support said, “Okay, let him do it.” And the access I
had to how that system worked was excellent so I got some good information, in other words.
And I found out that these forces were going into those orphanages and they’d kill the men and
they’d ravage the moms and they were running the children of various ages. And they came
from—we don’t know who their daddies were but some of them were Americans. (01:40:27)
�44
Veteran: And so, that’s all you could tell them, you could know that they are. And nonetheless,
they were run into the jungle and tigers would eat them. I found that out my first tour, when you
get out in the jungle. So, we put two large Marine units. This is a holding force; you couldn’t
stop them. But there is a holding force and then put landing ship, tanks, ships on the beach and
emptied out I don’t know how many orphanages but as many as we can. We got the nuns, we got
the priests, and everybody out. And then, we tracked the Marines as best we could and took those
vessels and came down the coast of South Vietnam and into up the river in Saigon itself. And
then, we confiscated all of the state department housing. And everybody became foster parents,
whether they needed to or not. And so, we had C-130s that could combat aircraft coming in from
the west coast of America with powder and baby wipes and diapers and all kinds of stuff. And
also, our hospital got support. We needed support because some of those children were ill. And
so, that got them stabilized. Basically, that’s what happened. Meantime, through the embassy,
they were able to negotiate with 7 adoption agencies from Oregon to the southern tip of
California and they geared up. I mean, I don’t know what they did but they threw money at those
agencies and people and then we loaded our aircraft up and we’d fly in with whatever supplies
for Vietnam and fly the babies out. And they had people on board to keep them stable and
alright. (01:42:27)
Veteran: And as far as I know, all 2500 of them made it to the states safely and they are in this
country in 3 generations right now. Now, something happened in that tour too, which changed
my life. About that time, while that was going on, my former spouse had sent her husband over
to where we were living in Salina, Kansas, to the air base, and convinced my wife that my
former spouse, their mother of the 3 children—my son and 2 daughters—was there and she was
just feeling not too…She had a headache or something but he was going to pick them up and
�45
take them down to visit mom and bring them right back. And we had such altercations with her
and her new husband and he was having trouble with her anyway and he’d asked me for my help
and I hung up on him. I wouldn’t talk to him. I didn’t—I wasn’t nasty and saying, “Well, shame
on you.” So anyway, the sheriff came over to the house and took a statement from him that yes,
she’s downtown and take her to visit and bring her back this afternoon. Well, this afternoon
arrived, evening arrived, the next day arrived…The sheriff was livid and he put an APB out for
those children. And he kept close to them and it was only the husband that was with the children
and he was rather forceful with him. And he only got the girls. The son was in school somewhere
else in Arkansas or Oklahoma. (01:44:17)
Veteran: And so, they got into Baltimore and we found out where they lived and we got my
attorney and the authorities there got ahold of one of the Baltimore County police. They went to
the house and knocked on the door and they were told, “Oh, well we got permission.” “Oh,
okay.” And they walked away. My wife was getting ahold of me. My wife was thinking I am
going to divorce her. She lost—she weighs normally 125 or 28 pounds, she got down to 90
pounds. My—our baby Andrew was throwing up all the time; it was such stress in the house. So,
the Red Cross called me home. The commanding general that I was working under allowed me
to use his private phone to call home every night. He wanted to get a report every morning. And
sometimes, the operators would call up and “What are you using official lines for? I am going to
report you. You’re talking trouble.” They didn’t know what I was doing. And I said, “Fine. Make
sure you spell my name right but here’s the contact for this phone.” And they said, “Well, we
know that.” And I hung up on it. So anyway, I got home and, you know, we had a…it was a
crying welcome, I’ll tell you that. And so, somebody babysitted our son, because that’s all we
had in the house, and my wife and I traveled 1500 miles. Made a phone call in to find out where
�46
they were and it was a confirmation phone call. My daughter called the house to talk to my wife
and when she was on the phone, the mother came and slapped her and took the phone away so
we knew that we had a confirmation they might be in that house that they called out of. Didn’t
have caller ID but you could use some other ways of getting that information.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:46:19)
Veteran: So, we drove around, we found the house that night and then we drove around. It was a
holiday so the next day was Monday and then after that it was Tuesday, which schools were
open, and we found the elementary school they ought to go to. We weren’t sure. So, what I did: I
dressed her up as a house wife and I put big curlers in her hair and she had a set of—she had a
gown on, a nightie—a nightgown—and a coat because it was November; it was cold. And I was
down the hill with the engine running, that same Chevrolet. So, and what’s interesting when you
run an operation like this, people don’t pay attention to the unusual and the usual. She looked
like everybody else. The only thing is, she was walking away from the school with the girls
instead of towards the school with the girls and nobody noticed it for three and a half hours. And
that’s how we have done some other little operations like that when I was over there in the ‘50s.
When different things would happen, people wouldn’t understand. So now, I was trained to do
that.
Interviewer: So, why wouldn’t the authorities help you? I mean, if you have been
established, shouldn’t they know that the permission thing was a lie? Or wouldn’t they
have been told that when they had gone back, and gotten them?
Veteran: The judge in Baltimore County didn’t care.
Interviewer: Oh.
�47
Veteran: And later on, when I still had the children and I got the girls back, he cut a court order
that I would pay…I would pay child support to them. So, I was persona non grata in the state of
Maryland, starting in 1972 and it stayed that way for a while. So anyway, so we got her back.
We—I got into Pennsylvania and I phoned Salina, Kansas to my attorney and got a bench order
that protected me. (01:48:25)
Veteran: I wasn’t doing—it wasn’t illegal and nobody was hurt and any of that stuff. Got them
back home and it was very difficult. I mean, my older of the two daughters was wetting the bed
and all that kind of stuff and really messed up psychologically and that’s where I got, again, we
talked to Colonel Prince, because he knew us already. And when we were in Frankfurt so now
that was a—so, he could attest to before and after. And so, he showed up in a court room. So,
after that—and of course the police were told it was okay and they did nothing and yet it was
civil authority against a civil authority and so we were stuck with that. So, we got her home, got
them home, and Colonel Prince sent over to me, to us, a male Army nurse who was a counselor,
an advisor. Psychologist. And Willis Succorto, Captain Willis Succorto. And I was desperate. I
didn’t have any answers. I was mad, I was furious. And I didn’t know what to do with that either.
I had responsibilities and I had to leave the next day. I couldn’t stay home to protect my family.
So, this guy was going to do two things: protect the family but, also, he was going to go through
some kind of a process that would help them get stable again. And then also, the son was in
Oklahoma? To protect him. (01:50:09)
Veteran: We didn’t want any shenanigans with that either. So, all that was set up. And then what
he did: he gave me a New Testament. He was a Gideon. I didn’t know that and he wrote in it.
And I’d say, “Oh, I need one of those.” So, he wrote his name, to me, and he signed it his name
�48
and the date was 18, November, 1970…in that case, it was ’71. It was before that when we
evacuated the babies.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And so, I got in the plane the next day and the 3 things you do on an 18-hour flight: you
either sleep, read the testament, or eat. And that’s what I did. I got into Saigon and I went back to
work and it was a mess and I still had this connectivity using the general’s phone just to check up
once in a while. I didn’t have to do it every day anymore. And so, I finished up with…He said
start in chapter—it started with page 179. It’s the book of John. I didn’t know where it was. So, I
finished that. I didn’t know what to do with that. And you or nobody else were there to tell me
what do I do next. Well, I went to the front of the book and that’s Matthew. And I went and I
read the book of Matthew slowly. I was reading it for myself. I had heard it before. I had been to
church many times but I knew my heart and I wasn’t good enough. And all these wonderful
people around me? They are good people but I have a dark heart so I just never made any
decision ever. Ever. Never. I’ve been in a synagogue, I have been in a Catholic church, I’ve been
in Protestant churches in University City. Nothing. So, read the book of Matthew and I was
startled to note that Matthew must have known John because a couple things in there are the
same. That was interesting. So, I kept reading and I got in the book of Mark. And the book of
Mark I found out is just like this device here. It takes pictures, just snapshots, of Jesus doing
stuff. He was busy. And there was no—it didn’t—it had no real explanation. (01:52:20)
Veteran: Something would happen and you could see it but there was no…it didn’t have any
words there to embellish it. So, I went through that and I get into chapter 15 and they already
crucified him. They had him hanging on the cross and he was bleeding and he was dying and he
gave up the ghost. And the centurion who was also a soldier that rose from the ranks, now I
�49
could relate to that, and he was in charge of the cohort or the detachment of this very important
crucifixion. Now, I didn’t crucify anybody but I came out of nowhere, out of the bottom, and
here I am a major. And I could have…Be—I had already been in charge of hundreds and worth
hundreds of millions of dollars in all that equipment and stuff and I thought hmm…And he said,
“This truly is the son of God.” So, I got on my knees on the 25th of November, 1971. I said,
“Lord, I can’t handle this. I can’t do it.” So, I came to the end of myself in 1971, November the
25th. And I have not been the same since. And I am still in basic training. So, I let my wife know.
She was thrilled. She thought I was a believer already because I was already a nice guy. Nice guy
doesn’t get you anything. Okay, they were pleased with that. And so, the embassy people took
me into their—under their wing because they do have things that go on on Sunday and other
things that go on and they got me involved. And so, I’d began to learn to read that Bible. Then
I—okay, so, then I went through the—moving the babies and there was some other things that
we did that were very helpful to local communities. Because I had lived with the Montagnards
on and off for weeks. (01:54:24)
Veteran: We were a combat unit and so we tried to do some things, again, leaving the door open.
One of the things that we did, and this sounds—this is wild. Ben…what was it? Uncle Ben’s
brown rice. Whatever you call that stuff. We—the folks planted that in our agricultural programs
and we tested it and then we proliferated that as much as we could across South Vietnam. And
for the first time, towards the end of my…before I went home in 1972, we became self-sufficient
enough to export rice and feed all of North Vietnam. And that broke our hearts when they came
down and started destroying those paddy fields. We got that far and that was excellent. In other
words, we were able to get—the money we had we didn’t have to go in and ask for seconds. We
used what we had well and had leftover because some of the stuff was really beginning to work.
�50
Our construction work was caught up. We had hospitals that were all functional. Everybody was
basically safe.
Interviewer: Now, as you were engaging in these various projects in different parts of
Vietnam, now are you dealing with local South Vietnamese authorities as you did this? Or
did you just stick with the Americans?
Veteran: No, I worked with the Americans and did not—I got reports from the field or from the
whoever the site contact was but I didn’t speak. I had somebody with me as a driver but not—I
didn’t have an interpreter with me anymore. I was on my own. And so, I traveled different places
and we’d go into a village and didn’t know anything in it. And so, whoever was there would take
us down to some Vietnamese restaurant. I don’t know what I ate. I might have eaten snake and
wouldn’t have known it. But I knew I was afraid of that stuff so I ate a lot of things that were
boiled and it was wholesome. It tasted great but it—I made sure it didn’t have any meat in it
because I don’t know what it was. I wasn’t going to do something that was going to get me.
(01:56:52)
Interviewer: Alright. Because the part of—I guess part of what I was interested in was I
mean there were substantial problems with corruption in the South Vietnamese regime and
with what happened to funds that the Americans sent over and where they went and what
happened to them. And so, I was kind of curious: were you aware of that kind of thing? Or
was the nature of your operation different so it wasn’t an issue?
Veteran: We were sensitive to it, not really aware of it in the sense that we caught that stuff
going on. But the people we contacted and we looked at the product that was laid down or raised
up, whichever. Or we’d get…I didn’t go to any rice paddy fields but we got these field
�51
photographs from our sources and we put in X and got Y plus out of it. So, we didn’t have to put
in X again. That kind of stuff. And so, those reports were positive. And yeah, I had very little
contact with the Vietnamese. I stayed away from downtown because a lot of our guys went
downtown for entertainment or whatever, food and stuff. And the places would get blown up.
(01:58:13)
Veteran: And they came—they retook—we hauled—they were hauled out in body bags right
through Tan Son Nhut. And so, we stayed away from that. One night we went over to Tan Son
Nhut to watch a movie. One of these adventure films that were being sent around a few times. I
forget what it was. It was a motorcycle movie. It was kind of fun to watch that. And doggone it,
those idiots hit the airfield with 120-millimeter mortars. We had to run. Never did get—we never
got a raincheck on that.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you have a sense of how the larger war was going? Are we winning,
losing, treading water? Or were you not even thinking about that?
Veteran: Wasn’t thinking about it but kept an eye on it in the sense that when they were dropping
B-52—making an arc-like raid in the mountains around us, we knew that there was problems.
And that—but that was recurring. didn’t know what the build up was looking like but it was
coming. And we were very concerned about that. But we also had some modicum of assurance
that, well, just keep busy and you’ll be fine. So, I played…My roommate and I played tennis.
And so, we didn’t have any weapons except a tennis racquet. No pistol, nothing. And so, we just
got through the day. We ate and did the things you did. You got up early and you worked all day,
about 10, 12, 13, 14 hours a day. and then we took an hour or two and we played tennis with the
popular forces, these 15 and 16 year-olds, young men that would have been equivalent to our
junior National Guardsmen. And they were trained. (02:00:10)
�52
Veteran: They were trained. They were sharp, they were fast. They had a great smile. A lot of
them spoke English. To me, they were a good skillset bunch. And they were in Saigon itself and
I am sure that they would have connected with any military unit, Vietnamese unit, they needed to
if they needed them. But we put the word out to the—we also played tennis with the president’s
helicopter pilots. All 4 of them. And then we put the news out: do you tell the president that
these guys, and you have their names, you know we go down here every afternoon and we
played tennis with them. You put their names down and make sure that they never, ever become
ambassadors for this country. And of course, they asked us why. And they knew the answer but
the answer was this: they never let us win. We’d get ahead and they’d duck their heads down and
feel bad. They said, “Oh, we are losing.” And then they’d just tear us up and be, you know, like
whatever it was and we were zero. But we did it a whole year, that. A whole year of that.
Anyway…
Interviewer: Okay. Now, as a large-scale offensive was going on in early ’72, was there
some kind of concern that this might be it? Or things were going to go south? Or...?
Veteran: As the director of a refugee operation, I was very concerned with what happens with the
DMZ. They would come across a large group. I don’t know if it was two or three divisions and
that’s a large group.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That’s what I was—we were facing in the Ia Drang Valley in ’65. And that—those
three didn’t do so well. But we hadn’t been bombing anything in the North Vietnam. Again, our
numbers were beginning to drop. My unit pulled out in ’71. My complete division; all 15-16
�53
thousand of them were gone. And so, I—that’s probably why I didn’t go back to them. Plus, I
was an MI officer on an assignment, a management assignment. (02:02:27)
Veteran: I also had my security clearances so I was aware. I was given—I had privy to
information so when we built something or we supplied something, we knew how to handle it
because it was classified for those silver or those black aircraft at Tan Son Nhut. And the
equipment that went on board. Or the people that went on board.
Interviewer: Alright. (02:02:56)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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TalmadgeR2152V3
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Talmadge, Roger S.
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2017-09
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 3), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge started college at the University of Maryland in the fall of 1967. He attended college while also working at Fort Holabird. Roger was promoted to major in 1968. He graduated with his bachelor’s degree in computer science in June 1969. Roger was then transferred to Frankfurt, Germany in 1969 to take charge of Army Security there. He remained in Germany until July 1971. Roger and his wife Charlotte created a travel company while in Germany that they called ‘The Red Bull Express.’ They traveled throughout Europe with soldiers and their families via the travel agency. Roger was sent to do a second tour in Vietnam in July 1971. He was stationed in Saigon, Vietnam and worked at the United States Agency for International Development in management. He left Vietnam in July 1972. While in Vietnam, he was engaged in various projects throughout the country, including rescuing Vietnamese orphans during an Easter offensive early in 1972.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/755e3c99418fc989c91261b9dfe200ae.mp4
93fff3d2d38ec3203b4b52518769c509
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80a559f62bf7447c9150f6c45fe9996f.pdf
bc0ab18a8590f0e16763a9ecddeabb95
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 2:02:50
Interviewer: Alright. Now, we had gotten in your story to your beginning of time in
Vietnam. But I guess there was one more story from Fort Benning that you wanted to plug
in here before we forget it.
Veteran: Yes. When I was executive officer of B Company, 1st Battalion Airborne 188th Infantry
Battalion, Winged Attack, we were in Harmony Church, that’s in the Fort Benning complex, and
we received an assignment. Bravo company received an assignment that eventually I became the
officer in charge and I knew nothing about what I was supposed to do. So anyway, the
assignment was this: there was a sister battalion in our—we were the first brigade-sized in the
11th air assault and we had 3 battalions. And I think the 187th or something—another battalion—
was commanded by a guy by the name of Lieutenant Colonel John Hennessey. And keep that in
mind because you are going to hear that name again. He retired as a 4-star general. And this is
how we became intimate friends. I knew exactly nothing what to do but the assignment was this:
he was going to have a battalion parachute jump into a designated area. This was a training jump
and what they were going to do is parachute into that area and then proceed off their drop zone
into their maneuver. And what we were supposed to do is assist them where they need assistance
�2
but mainly pick up their parachutes and just pile them up somehow and that’ll be fine. And you’d
have a day—a certain amount of hours. You’d get there early on and you’d get orientated. And
so, we get together with some of his people and they want to give us some high points on what to
look for. (00:02:14)
Veteran: We were a leg unit. Or if not that, non-parachutists. There were some parachutists in it
that understood but still, we were going to get the orientation. The orientation was this: come out
of the air and some will land on the ground and maybe some of them will have a rough landing
and they might need a little bit of help getting up and getting started so they can get out of their
parachute and then proceed with their unit forward. Others might land in a ditch and you have to
sort of help them out of that. But most dangerous for them would be if they landed in some of the
ponds that are out there because the chute tends to deploy again and it’ll begin to just come apart
and land all over the individual and pull them under water and he’ll drown. So, we need help
with those. But in any event, the idea is to get them all—help them out, no matter whatever is
necessary within the environment that they land in. And then, allow them to go ahead forward
and then you clean up. And then we have vehicles coming out; we will pick up our parachutes
and so forth. So, alright. So, we went out to the field and they pointed out certain areas there:
there’s a waterhole there that you need—okay. And this is over here and this is sort of a gulley
kind of a thing with the tree stumps in there so that’s a hazard. Alright, so then he left. And the
vehicles were out of sight because they didn’t want anybody to parachute into them. Alright, so
what I did is I talked to my NCOs, I said, “How would you organize this?” and my—some of my
very senior NCOs, E-6s or above, would say, “Okay, we’ve had this exercise before when we
were in the airborne so what you do with that hole over there: you put extra people there. Don’t
put two people, you’ll put 6 people there. Now over here, this area where maybe 20 or 30 people
�3
will drop into or more, you might only need 3 or 4. And so we are spread out and then they will
form but don’t let them crash land on you. Just get out of their way.” And what you said—and
what they didn’t tell us but our guys were telling us that had been in airborne, “What you do is
you then start—they’ll start—they’ll take the parachute and they will start making a figure eight
with each other. So, you go out there and you do that and get the dry parachutes in one place and
if there is anything wet, don’t mix them in.” (00:04:49)
Veteran: “You just pile them together. Don’t go setting them in because they have to be hung
and we showed you where the towers are. Well, there’s towers just for parachutes to dry. And
they’ll clean them up and check them up and see if they’re torn and all that stuff. So, they’ll be
inspected particularly. And or if they get in that gulley and get something ripped or just—that’ll
be separate too.” “Gotcha.” They didn’t tell us what would happen. So, they came over and the
first stick came out and they came in and they land beautifully, just like you see in the movies.
And the second stick comes in and one or two will land in the pond and everything else was
beautiful. Then the last stick comes in and they’re gone; that’s the end of the flight. And they
went and landed in that hole and another one or two landed in the pond. So, we go about our
business. And before the trucks show up, we get all the dry ones—we had so many in each pile.
And then the wet ones were all just piled up here and the only ones that got maybe shredded a
little bit were over here. What they didn’t tell us about—and of course my intelligence
background, I worked in signal intelligence operations where we would use that for gathering
information but we also used it for just for regular communication. There’s such a thing as a
classified document: it is called a signal operating instructions, SOIs. So, those were coming
down from the sky. They just—it was snowing. It was snowing SOIs and it was snowing wallets
that had come undone. (00:06:44)
�4
Veteran: And all kinds of credit cards coming down. And they were just everywhere, even in the
pond. So, we saved every one of those. All of them. And I said, “Now, the SOIs or anything that
has any signal stuff on it, you give to me.” So, they very carefully—all the non-commissioned
officers and the privates and whoever else, because our whole 180 of us were all out there except
the commander, he was having tea with the general or somebody. I don’t know what he was
doing but he was busy. So, they were wonderful. And everybody I made double check and if
somebody had SOIs, somebody would be with them and give them all to me and I had a duffle
bag and I filled up my duffle bag full of SOIs. And then I had another duffle bag of all this other
junk. And it was, like I say, pictures of girls and family and whatever monies they had. Don’t
know where that came from. And wallets with their ID cards and all that stuff in there. So, we
got all of that. So, they maneuvered and went in the field with Lieutenant Colonel Hennessey.
And so, he was out in the field and then—so, I took all of that stuff with me and then I went out
in the field. (00:08:09)
Veteran: And our units were out there maneuvering, doing stuff too. They got there by air and
we got there by air assault but we came in with the helicopters or something else or maybe by
trucks but we got there differently than they did. Well, after they got good and settled, I got with
one of my men and we went over and we hunted down where the…I think it was 187th
battalion—infantry battalion—where they were located. And so, went to the tent to see the
commanding officer and I was a first lieutenant and the guy with me was a corporal or
something. And so, we walked in with these big bags and the sergeant there said, “Okay, how
can I help you?” And I said, “I came to see the colonel. I got to see the colonel; it’s a pressing
matter.” He said, “Well, he is busy.” “Tell him I got highly classified documents that only he can
receive. Does he want them or do I take them to the G-2 for the division?” And the colonel came
�5
out and says, “I’ll see you now.” So, I took in these bags and I opened them up and I said,
“These are your SOIs. I worked in the intelligence service for a couple years and I know that you
didn’t want to have your buttons swing because you have…I mean, my goodness: this would
probably be worth thousands—tens of thousands—or I don’t know, a lot of money to somebody
that is not friendly to the United States of America. And over here, I can imagine the wives and
the, whatever, girlfriends in the neighborhood or whatever, your soldiers are missing their
wallets and they’re probably going to be embarrassed to stand in formation and not have a
wallet. So, here is this stuff and we don’t know what belongs to what. Okay, we—there’s money
in there and maybe you use it for goodwill or something. Don’t know what to do with that, sir.”
So, he said, “Well Lieutenant, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I will not forget this. You
have a good day. Goodbye.” So, I left. Watch out what happens after that. (00:10:18)
Interviewer: Alright. Now we will return from that interruption back to Vietnam. And
you’ve gotten there and you had gone out to Vietnam with sort of the advanced party of
what is now the 1st Cavalry Division Air Mobile and were building the camp at An Khê?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: And you talked about clearing areas and doing different things and
discovering that you had been bathing by a minefield and all those sorts of things. Okay.
And then, at what point now—is there other stuff that happens before the rest of the
division comes in or is that…?
Veteran: There is one—one funny thing; it’s a small thing but it’s funny. There was this
gentleman that was with me, this tall man of color. You didn’t want to cross him so I made sure I
had the biggest guy in my unit with me and he and I could take on anybody: I’ll hold his jacket.
�6
But anyway, so here we are and we looked after each other and he wanted to call me by my first
name. I said, “No, we’re not going to cross that line. Not going to do that.” So, anyway…But I
know a couple times at night, we’d be up to watch the movie but next day we knew that we were
going to really pay for it because we’d have to get up around O dark thirty and get out there and
whack weeds together. But he’s real good at it and I was…like I said, I had my Viet Cong buddy
that helped me. So, we were going to mess then at night and I’d say—whatever his name was,
we will call him Jones— “You know Jones, the lieutenant would really do well if he had a
peanut butter sandwich.” And the mess sergeant would say, “Well, we are closed.” “You know
Jones, you didn’t hear me, did you? The lieutenant would really do well if he had a peanut butter
sandwich.” And the mess sergeant would say, “Well, we are closed.” So, Jones went over to the
mess sergeant and says, “If you want your brains rearranged, refuse him again.” “What did you
say, Lieutenant?” “The lieutenant would really like to have a peanut butter sandwich.” So, the
sergeant said, “Wheat or rye?” (00:12:40)
Veteran: So, then they showed up. Now, our folks showed up and they came off the USS Jaguar.
Oh, what a horrible time they had. I think the food was pretty good but they had some rough seas
and sometimes they’d get sick and they’d get bored and they had a lot of training. They didn’t
waste their time. They were refreshed all the survival skills and that kind of stuff. They could
have tested the weapons out too and fired off but I don’t think they did that. But they did
everything else that was important to make a soldier very strong in any environment to improve
what they are going to get into. So, they arrived and we received them and then for the first time,
we moved out…We moved away and across the river to the area that we had cleared off and we
set up—so, when we had the 1st battalion area, the…What was it? The…It slipped my mind.
Interviewer: Of your unit? Or someone else’s?
�7
Veteran: Ours. Our unit.
Interviewer: 8th! 8th Cavalry.
Veteran: Yeah, yeah. My mind is messed up. 1st battalion, 8th Cav for our 1st Cav Division so 1st
Cav battalion set up their area and there is headquarters A, B, C, and D. And so, we set up camp
and while we were there, we had already gotten some training too on you got to watch out for
certain kinds of snakes. And the coral snakes—if you get bitten, they’re two step. You get bit and
two steps later, you’re dead. But also, snakes will come in pairs. I didn’t know that. And so, we
were whacking away, getting things reasonably level so we could get our little pup tents in and I
came across one coral snake and whacked that one. (00:14:39)
Veteran: And so, the guys around me are with me and they got the second one. So, we were
pretty certain that that was good and we kept being very careful about that. And I am grateful to
say that nobody got a bite. But we did get all the men down and we got ourselves down. And
everybody in the companies were in pup tents. Two men to a pup tent. And we took care after
each other. We set up one of our GP medium tents, general purpose tents, and each company had
a dining facility so we’d go through that, rain or shine, we’d go through there and eat out of our
little tin plates. And then, the division started getting some equipment where we could put some
of these general purpose medium tents and fit a whole platoon of 30 men in one. And then you
had bunks, so that means you didn’t have your own shelter above you but you were off the
ground. You weren’t on the nasty old ground where whatever could—a centipede could crawl in
your ear or something like that. And they had that and these little inch worms would get in your
ears too. Yeah, that was kind of fun. But anyway, so that aligned them. My company commander
had a different idea. Everyone in our rifle company was a non-commissioned officer before they
became an officer. So, what we did: the men got the GP medium tents and the officers slept in
�8
the two man tents. And so, we got that squared away and then we took one of those and made an
orderly room for administration and operations and whatever else. (00:16:27)
Veteran: And then finally, we got another sizeable tent and we put all the lieutenants in that one.
But the company commander and me, we still had our pup tent. We were in the pup tent
business. So, the men got together and they got a truck and they drove to Pleiku, which was…I
mean, it was almost a day’s drive. And they got some mahogany and they came back and a
couple of these guys, we had used them in B company anyway, to build the best mess hall in that
part of the world: Fort Benning Harmony Church. So, they built us a house. We had a house off
the ground. And we had that. We also had a cot and we had electricity. And so, I would get up in
the morning and I was the commander’s servant. So, I took care of him and so nobody else
would brown those and none of there business. So, I took care of him. And that was my job: to
take care of him. And so, he was just Mr. Wonderful with the troops. And he was embarrassed
that I was cooking for him. But anyway, you can’t do much to kill C-rations. Anyway, so that’s
what he had. When he was in the field, he cooked his own stuff but when he was there, I cooked
something right there for him. And then he’d go to the mess hall and have the big meal. So, that
was kind of neat: a mahogany house. Amazing. And we have pictures of that and nobody else—
none of the other commanders got anything. They got a GP medium portable whatever.
(00:18:10)
Veteran: Even the battalion commander. Our two guys helped build an officer’s club. And some
once—some years after I left, the termites ate the whole thing so that was kind of…They were
kind of working on it when I left in August of ’66. Okay, so we got settled in and got our routine
around and got our security in. We performed some of the security around the division so we had
a sector that we had and other battalions had part of it and so forth. Just line troops would take
�9
care of that because they knew how to spot. They’d patrol the front of the area and such like that.
We put out the word, although we were told differently by headquarters in Washington D.C., but
we put out the word nobody moves at night. Nobody moves at night. Anybody that moves at
night, they’ll get shot. So, that was good. That kept us safe. And only the people that worked for
us in the daytime would show up at night. And so, that helped us segregate that stuff. And one of
the things that I introduced or had worked on with my NCOs—it wasn’t my idea but the NCO
says, “Why don’t we put a trap out there for these guys?” “Good. Tell me what’s on your mind.”
So, what we did: we took bamboo shoots and we cut them in half and they showed me at night
how you put those down, even in the dark night, and it looked like a highway. Now they said,
“Now, put that aside. Now, when it gets dark tonight, go in front of our machine gun positions
and see what you see.” And sure enough, they had put a trail. Our—the guys that worked with us
in the day had put a trail down to our automatic weapons. So, what we did when, as soon as the
sun set and it was dark, we’d move them all over. (00:20:11)
Veteran: And we put an ambush team at each end on those sites. We captured these rascals. The
fact is, they would go out with just their bayonets. Our guys would go out with a bayonet and
we’d capture—because you didn’t have all that other stuff that could bang around. And these
small units would come up with something to either slit the throats of us who were on duty or…I
don’t know. We didn’t have much trouble with bombs or hand grenades but we could have. So,
we’d capture them or they’d smell us out there and they’d hit the wood. Pretty soon our sector—
we didn’t get any of that anymore. And then later on, they’d shoot. They’d start shooting at us
and so we’d get—same guys would go out and sneak up on them and take the weapon away from
them. And they said—after a while, they just left us alone. They quit shooting at us. I don’t
know. They just…They got tired of it. Also, we put trip wires everywhere. I mean, we would
�10
take them down as the sun was coming up. We’d take them down; we’d move them around. But
then we’d put them out at night. And one of my platoon sergeants, an E-7, went out there and
this is what privates do, private first class maybe—rarely a corporal. But here is this master
sergeant, an E-7, and he…Well, he is…Yeah, an E-7. And he was setting up one of the night
flares and he caught himself on fire. And he burned the front of himself. And so, around where I
was with the company commander, we get a new company commander in and he was a desk
jockey in the brigade in the midst of fair weather. And he didn’t know what to do. (00:22:06)
Veteran: And I went berserk. So, I left. I got in the jeep with the driver and he drove me down to
the MASH. We had a MASH with surgeons in it. And they were having a meeting and here I
was, a first lieutenant, and I had all my junk on and the driver had all of his junk on. And you
know, it’s our weapon, hand grenades, and whatever else, and flares, and we interrupted their
meeting and they were upset with that. So, I referred to them as to their ancestry in a loud voice.
And they didn’t like that either. And I said, “And they need to get out of there now and get an
ambulance up there and get this E-7 out of the place because he has caught himself on fire. We
put the fire out but he’s burned badly.” And they just didn’t like me. I said, “Spell my—get the
name right and get in the jeep and we are leaving now. Otherwise, we are going to take you
down.” And they didn’t like either one of us. So, we did; they got him back. Got him back and
evaced him to Guam. And he tried to tell folks that he was fighting something and that set this
thing off. So, we had to squash that. That was a bold lie. So anyway, that was kind of…Didn’t
know what to do with that. So anyway, just going back just about a month or two later—a month
or two earlier, whe I was in Fort Benning. When we got notified that we were going to be a
combat unit in Vietnam, and this guy showed up and we went out on maneuvers. One of the
maneuvers, we found out how apt and how shiny he was. He was going to train us on reaction
�11
drills. You get ambushed, you attack it and you lose less people than if you sit there and shoot it
out with them. You attack it and you get more enemy kills and fewer friendly kills. (00:24:08)
Veteran: So, he was going to train the troops. And I suspected that he was a problem. I am not
disrespectful to my officers but I like to know who they are so I was trying to identify this
gentleman. I will call him Wendell because that’s what we called him. That’s his first name. So,
I went—Wendell called me in the office and he said, “Alright, Talmadge, what I want you to do:
we are going to go out and I am going to train these guys and I am going to go to area 6D.” I
knew exactly where that was, where the Rangers trained out in the jungly woods of Fort
Benning. Very rough, very overgrown. “And you pick any 6 guys.” I said, “Sir, any 6 guys?” he
said, “Yes, you got that right, lieutenant. You heard me. Just go on; get going.” So, I got these 6
NCOs that helped me out with a lot of other things on inspections and they were Ranger trained.
And we went down to the Ranger department, sat with them and said, “What do you think?”
So…Okay, so they armed them with machine guns and also, I left them. I didn’t tell them I was
going to do this and there are some other things that I coordinated with them. I went over to the
9th cavalry squadron and I asked the lieutenant colonel if I can have one of his platoons. And
they come with helicopters and 30 killer infantry solider assault soldiers and all their ammunition
and all their stuff and whatever else they have. “Oh sure, absolutely.” Then, I went over to the
reconnaissance area of reconnaissance battalion of whatever company and I asked them if I could
have two bubbles. They said, “Absolutely. You can have those observation helicopters. When do
you want them?” I said—I told them I wanted them at O dark thirty on such and such a date and
they’d pick me up at the airfield and I’d appreciate that very much. (00:26:04)
Veteran: So, then I went to the company B baker, the guy that, the drunk who was still there.
And I said, “I need 40 bags of baking powder. In paper bags.” So, he said, “What for?” “I can’t
�12
tell you. It’s a classified mission.” So, he did that; he got those bagged up for me and I took my
bag of those baking powder for cooking and stuff and got in my helicopter and then we took off.
And then we called the military police to stop the copter because somebody had a low—one of
his tires were low and we were too slow. We missed that. So, we couldn’t get to that but we
knew exactly where they were coming. So, the 6 guys showed up and they dropped a tree right in
the middle of the dirt roads where they have to come in and there was other stuff over here to
block them so they couldn’t go forward, they couldn’t even turn around. And they had all these
troops, 150 troops, we were out there. So, and then, my guys hid in the woods. And I was hiding
back here and watching. And so, and the 9th was a radio call. And I was listening to my
commander on his radio so I could say something or he could say something to me. And so, so
once in a while, I’d have a radio check and find out where he was on the highway because I was
watching him and then when he made his turn, I was able to turn my radio off and alert my 6
NCOs we are coming in and he’s going to stop. And then, when he stopped and he disembarked,
I flew over and I bombed him with all of these—I made a couple of runs, about 3 runs, dropping
the paper sacks. All this white stuff was all over—it was everywhere and it got in everywhere
and he was…I could see him: his face was turning red. He was screaming, trying to get ahold of
me. I don’t have my radio on in daylight. I couldn’t hear a thing. I didn’t know what he was
doing and he’s making all this racket down there. I knew he was. I couldn’t hear anything but
you could look at him and tell he was screaming. (00:28:16)
Veteran: So anyway, I turned my radio on and I started making shhhkawwkawww. And so, he
came up on there and I said, “This is Warrior 5, over.” “This is Warrior 6. Stop your bombing
runs. I am trying to train these guys.” “I can’t hear you. Speak up.” “This is 6.” “This is 5, over.”
And I kept that up for a while and finally I heard him and so I pulled out. And so, he started just
�13
training. But everybody was—everybody looked funny with all that white stuff all over. And it’s
amazing he was so squeamish. He never said anything to me. He should have chewed me out,
raked me over the coals. Didn’t do it. Didn’t do it; didn’t touch me at all. So anyway, so they
went into the woods. They began to deploy and so one of the NCOs…There is three of them over
here on one side and three of them over here on the other side. One of them opened up their
machine gun and, all of a sudden, it was just like you see in those soccer games where all the 7
or 8 year-olds—everybody is on the ball. Everybody on the field is on the ball. 22 people are
running after that stupid ball. But a whole bunch of these guys went there. I don’t know what he
did. I have no idea what he said. It wasn’t organized. They should have been in a platoon
formation of some kind and moved as a unit. And they weren’t organized, they just went
everywhere. I should have gone back with my helicopter, with my bubble helicopters. But
anyway, so they went after that and as soon—and then there’s these other people started milling
around, going that way. So, then one of these guys opened up. All of a sudden, its oh, they were
going this way. I could watch them that—I could be up here and watch them for a while.
(00:30:06)
Veteran: And then, the NCOs on the ground were telling me what they were doing too. So,
finally I got rid of the bubbles and but anyway, so they had—they were split and this one opened
up and then they’d go over here and do something and then they’d go to this way over…Had that
fire unit and they were split up all over the place. By the time they got to this open field, and they
came on line and all my NCOs were up there and I was on the ground with them. And at this
point, they got on the firing line. Oh, they…If we had mortars, we could have killed them all. We
didn’t have mortars. But anyway, they were going through mortar runs and doing this. I don’t
know what they were doing. It doesn’t make any sense. But anyway, while they were doing that,
�14
here comes a platoon of the 9th Reconnaissance Squadron and they land with their helicopters
right there and they dismantle the platoon. And with the fighters in there, they are shooting at
them and all that. All of a sudden, they had to get organized and they returned the fire. But by
that time, there was nothing left. And the commander is screaming like a—he was like a turkey.
One of those turkeys that get out there and you could just see all of this stuff going underneath
the chin. I don’t know what happened. Anyway, so then we stopped. And then we regrouped and
those guys got in the birds and flew off and we got in and we finally left. Got in our vehicle. And
I don’t know what kind of a briefing they had after that. But the commander told them because
this guy, Captain Livingston, had been with us for a couple years. And he taught us how to react
to stuff. Well organized to ambushes, to anything. So anyway, we got alerted to go to Vietnam
and we had a short time to quietly do that. And then they—within two hours after, it was
announced who would be in the advanced party. All 4 of my platoon leaders came up to me and
begged me to get this guy Wendell relieved, because he is incompetent. (00:32:22)
Veteran: I said, “I will do my best. But I’ll promise you: it will be taken care of.” So, they got
on—we got on our boarders a couple days later and came to An Khê and you know that story.
They showed up in September. He gets out there with the security thing. The first thing he did
and he gets relieved. So, he wrote efficiency reports on all of us. Now, the battalion commander
and the exec and whatever else went through the operations officer—went through the
organization and relieved a bunch of our…some of our folks as well. My first sergeant stayed, I
stayed. I don’t know. My real good guys stayed. My real sharp, wide-awake—the guys that kept
the weapons clean all the time, even when they came back from our practice stuff that we did,
little encouragements out there and back again. And so then, when he was relieved, Captain Roy
Martin came from the operations officer position to take his place. And he is a non-
�15
commissioned officer. He formally served in…I know he served in Korea. He might have…I
think that’s it. But he also served for many years all over the world in airborne operations and
very thoroughly, thoroughly well-versed, well-respected, known by very senior people across the
Army. (00:34:04)
Veteran: So, he comes into our unit and he starts and that’s where the unit grew closely together.
We removed some folks. Beyond that, we got some folks in that broke our heart. I got a black
lieutenant in, I got a white lieutenant in. And when September, late September, early October, we
deployed for the Ia Drang Valley, took a lot of hits. We had 3 North Vietnamese divisions
fighting our one and our field artillery and everything else we could find. Just drove them back
into Cambodia and when the congressmen got off the helicopters, they wanted to know are we
firing into—outside the limits of Vietnam? South Vietnam? Into Cambodia or anywhere else.
“Oh no, sir, we wouldn’t be doing that.” So many of them had to say from the fire direction
center, “We got them on the run! We got them 20-15 clicks inside the—we got a barrage running
right after them and we are pushing them out.” So, we told the representatives to get on the
helicopters and get out of here. So, they left. Didn’t hear anything about that but that was
terrible. We had to do that otherwise they’d regroup the company; we took some heavy hits. And
one of our battalions was ambushed. I mean, all the leadership was taken out. It was Hal
Moore’sunit. And I can’t tell you what he did but I know what he didn’t do. That battalion was
the only battalion that was moving from Pleiku, going from point A to point B, and they had no
flank security, no forward units’ patrols and nothing in the rears. And he certainly didn’t have
artillery flanking him all the way in, left and right. That unit, when it was decimated, I had to
give up some of my lieutenants and my non-commissioned officers to completely restore that
�16
battalion. And I lost my black officer and later on, I will tell you about the white lieutenant. But I
lost my black officer. I wanted a black officer in my command. (00:36:25)
Veteran: I have a fetish for black people because of Mary Wilson, who raised me as a youngster.
I think I mentioned that earlier on and I loved Mary Wilson. And I didn’t even know she was a
woman of color. I mean today, I don’t care. Anyway, that’s what happened.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Let’s try to organize this stuff a little bit. The full division
comes out. And once, then, you get them organized and established, how long is it before
you actually start to kind of go out into the field for full operations?
Veteran: The Ia Drang Valley was our first operation where the division deployed.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And they went late September and into October, November, we were in the Ia Drang
Valley in constant contact with North Vietnamese. They had 3 divisions, later on I found out,
and we even found their headquarters. Their front headquarters. So, I kept that in mind for later.
And so, we were able to push them. We had some of the people here at this reunion were there
and some of our people who were wounded, some of them—they had—they set up triage for us.
When we brought back these guys, and the ones that were easy to fix, they got that taken care of
and the next ones were the ones that would live probably and then the last ones were…They
were lost. And sure enough, they got some of those saved. (00:38:02)
Veteran: And that was a miracle. But that was our first time and we didn’t take a lot of hits in
Bravo company, or even the 1st of the 8th Cav. We didn’t take a lot of hits at all and so we
brought most of our people back with us. But we had some and they were—we lost a couple.
They were killed in action but most any other—there were just some that were wounded severely
�17
and they are still around today. And so that was kind of a neat blessing. We really didn’t take
much of a—okay, so we came back from that and there was a guy in Bravo company; his name
is Rodriguez. And he was known in the 18th Airborne Corps as a chef. And here he is: an infantry
staff sergeant platoon leader. Very, very—the generals knew him; he was that kind of a cook.
And so, General Johnson was one of them. And so, we came back and we were licking our
wounds and such like that and we had a situation happen and I got a picture of this guy I’ll tell
you about. But anyway—so, Rodriguez cooked food for our battalion and I think we had a bunch
of visitors come in to help themselves because they wanted the fine food that he produces. But
we had a situation where when the guys came back, we weren’t very observant. I had a—this
tall, black gentleman I put in the 1st platoon. And I got an Italian; his name was Spino and he was
my number one man so he did everything. I taught him everything I know. So, when I was busy,
he went out and made the deliveries of food, ammunition, water, anything, into the field. They
asked for something, we’d try to get it. Maybe some sleeping bags or maybe some boots. And
that was one of the things we got into right after the Ia Drang Valley in December: our boots
were falling off us. They rotted right off our feet. (00:40:15)
Veteran: And so, we had to send out and make urgent calls to get not only the uniforms that were
jungle fatigues but also those cloth boots that the water would come in and go out. And—the
jungle boots. And so, those began to come in and, again, the enlisted got theirs’ first and then we
got ours second. And somebody stole all of mine so I didn’t—I was out of uniform for a long
time. So anyway, so that was happening. But one of the things that happened was when they
came in, yes, they cleaned their rifles right away and yes, they did this, that, and they got their
stuff in order and got themselves finally some food after they got all this stuff put away. But one
of the things some of them didn’t do: they didn’t take away their hand grenades. And so,
�18
everybody was tired. I don’t know what we were doing. We were busy trying to get organized
too and one guy laid down in his bunk and blew himself to pieces. Which is what—he was just
resting and two of his grenades—the trigger things were wrapped around his web gear and he
just slept there with it like this and he must have rolled over and one of them dropped and the
other dropped and they both exploded. And the one must have done this because the shrapnel
went like this. My first sergeant and myself—I don’t know where the company commander
was—but all the shrapnel went like that: tore up everything but it didn’t hit us. And it did that
pretty much around. A couple guys got wounded but we got them fixed up. So, we took care of
that. We—when they come back, we just strip them. And we…I guess we learned a lesson from
that. (00:42:03)
Veteran: So, that was our first time that we went out in hard combat. What Spino and I did, we
developed what you call the Aerial Red Ball Express. We didn’t ask anybody. Aerial Red Ball
Express. We didn’t ask anybody’s permission. We went to one of the lift…helicopter lift
battalions, air assault battalions, and we asked for two Huey helicopters. And what we wanted to
do, and they provided their gun support, we would fly over where Captain Roy Martin was with
the B company and we’d hover about 5000 feet above them and then we’d keep in radio contact
with everybody and then at some point when they could pin them down or the shooting kind of
died off, we would come down and we would drop off the ammunition and we’d drop off food
and water. And then, if something else, we’d have to—and gunships were here to support and
make sure that nobody bothered ourselves. And then so, we created that and then pretty soon a
battalion like that. So pretty soon, Bravo company was coming in and reload and we’d go out to
C company and we’d go out to A company; A, B, and C primarily. Delta company was our
mortar outfit so we used—they didn’t get out that much so they were—they still helped perform
�19
many things when we set up in a defense in the field. Because those mortars drove off the
enemy. Excellent. These guys were quick and they were excellent. Our spotters knew what they
were doing. We had Air Force, foreign observers, and our own. And we could really get after
them with mortars and also with our 105s and 155s artillery. Excellent. We also had a 175, that
one we could fire a long distance and that’s what would drive the enemy away from us in Ia
Drang Valley. (00:44:07)
Veteran: So, we had a couple of extra—a number of exercise—after the Ia Drang Valley, we had
some small exercises but along Highway 19, which comes—Pleiku comes over the Mang Yang
Pass, where those guys got ambushed when the French and the…when they were fighting
the…Viet Minh, whatever they call them. And all the way down to Da—no, Nha Trang, the port.
Anyway, so on the 17th of December, we deployed forward into Binh Dinh Province, which was
down here quite a distance. And there was a corps that kept ambushing all the—everything. And
they were killing a lot of our people. And that’s—all of our supplies were being absolutely
stopped. So, we were given a mission: our battalion was given the mission to get these folks and
drive them off. They go into a village and do bad things. They’re going to kill the men and do
bad things with the children and the women or run the children into the woods and lions—I
mean, tigers—would eat them. And that’s where I first found out—I didn’t know that. So
anyway, it was a village lined up like this and the island was here and we were on the other side
with a forward supply, whatever you want to call it, organization. So, I was involved with that.
And so, two of our rifle companies were in line, and one of them in reserve, and fighting these
people that they had pinned down. They got them stopped in the village. They already shot down
one of our helicopters where we couldn’t do anything with it. It was too close to the situation.
So, we sent in a medevac with gunship support. (00:46:05)
�20
Veteran: And some snipers shot through the canopy and blew the brains of the co-pilot all over
the interior of that aircraft, that helicopter, so he pulled out. And there was a major in charge of
the medevac unit with us forward and I begged him to go back in. He says, “I am not going to do
it, lieutenant.” I am not—I wouldn’t…I didn’t—I was angry. I was confused and…because I had
heard some of my folks had been wounded, maybe even killed. And in fact, there was guys I had
served with for two and a half years. Some of these guys had taught me how to be a man in the
infantry, how to do airborne things and be safe. So anyway, I went to the lift battalions again and
they gave me two helicopters—no, one helicopter for lift and I got two gunships so we made a
pass through that whole mess and I talked to Roy Martin on the ground, I had his frequency. I
could talk to the forward base and to him. So then, so it—the gunships when we came around
and I was able to take a moment to talk: “Yes, we can give you coverage. They’re here, there is a
lot of space here. We can put fires on them and we are confident that we will not disturb either of
your rifle companies on the front line.” “Good.” So, I had a pilot, co-pilot, crew chief and
myself, we got in this lift. No guns on it. In fact, as our weapons were—we just put them away
because you can’t be—you can’t do—we are going to load. It was a hot day so we only could
pick up 6 people at a time. There was 18 to pick up. So, we flew in and set down. My first
sergeant, Roy Pointer, came over this way with these guys. Every one of them was hot, was
dirty, and bloody. And they weren’t saying anything. Nobody was talking. (00:48:13)
Veteran: They didn’t say hi or…And so, we loaded the 6 on and we pulled out. As we were
loading them on, it seemed like somebody got in the back of the fuselage. You know, these
helicopters were—sound would carry. And somebody got there with a stick and was beating on
that fuselage, the tail assembly. I hollered at—I don’t know if top could hear me but the only
thing that I could see here was this: if I wanted to do something else, I had to move like that. I
�21
couldn’t hear anything either way and I couldn’t see anything either way. I could hear this but I
couldn’t see it or hear it. But I heard that. And I hollered at him, “Get that idiot out of here!” And
so, we pulled out and we dropped them off as quickly as we could. Swept out some of it and then
went back and got the next load. And we came back with the next 6: hot, bloody, sweating. And
that guy was still there and I said, “Top, shoot him. I don’t care who he is. Shoot him!” because
he kept beating that fuselage. And so, we pulled out a second time and unloaded, got whatever
out, and came back in the third time. And that idiot was back there again. I don’t even…I don’t
know, I can’t explain it. But we got the last 6 and the first sergeant says, “Get out of here and do
not come back.” And my last remarks to him was, “Shoot the bastard.” And I pulled out—we
pulled out—and we landed and got rid of them and they counted 27 holes in the helicopter. It
was a magnesium-built helicopter. Had one of those rounds been a tracer, it would have blown us
away. I mean, that’s the way it was. The point I am trying to make is when you live together and
work together, you don’t plan to die together but you do it together. Whatever it is, you do it
together. (00:50:11)
Veteran: One of the guys that was killed in that was—I had 7 dead men out of the 18. The other
11 are somewhere. One of them would have came from Detroit and I have his name upstairs. He
was a private first class. He was an excellent infantryman. Knew how to use all of the infantry
equipment for combat. And put him in a body bag, send him to the United States, and we can’t
find him. As of today, this is—that happened on the 18th of December, 1965. We first—that’s
when we first drew blood in a very sufficient, well-documented day; Ia Drang Valley we didn’t.
We had some but not that many.
Interviewer: Right.
�22
Veteran: And not 18 in the battalion and Bravo company. So, I come here today and one of our
folks has looked, and I have looked, and we can’t find him anywhere. Not so far. So, I can bring
that information to you tomorrow. And we don’t know where he is. So, we left that with a new
tightness. That was a terrible experience for us all. I remember going back to the battalion
headquarters when we got in a couple new skirmishes but we drove those bad guys out. We
decimated them significantly and we drove them out; went into the village and did what we did.
And then we flew in another bigger helicopter. Took the Huey out that had been shot down. And
we cleaned up that. And tried to…whatever you can. Anybody we captured, we always checked
for blood first. We’d give them water and food. And we are the only army that does that, even
under these new circumstances. So, that ended our operation to clean up Binh Dinh on the 18th of
December, 1965. (00:52:25)
Interviewer: Alright. And do you get a lull, for a while, in activity? Or is it right back out
toward the Cambodian border? Or what next?
Veteran: What we did, we had a…Usually some of these things that are going to take place—
what I am going to share with you. When we got back, one way of quieting us down was to put
us on peripheral duty and we had our sections back again. And we operated just as with the same
vigor as we did when we were learning how to do this stuff. And so, alright. So, we did that and
it was kind of funny but it’s not laughable. We get up the next morning and the next several
mornings and there’d be at least 2 or 3 of our infantry over on one of the other sectors with a
throat slit. No bombs, no shooting. Or over here. It didn’t happen to us. What happened was
when we brought them in, we gave them two beers. And they’d have their two beers, had a really
Sergeant Rodriguez meal, you know, it’s absolutely gourmet and I mean that. He could take a
pig and make a banquet out of it. Anyway, so he was really exceptional. And they’d sleep it off
�23
and then we would have a 5-mile run or something. Something diverse from everything without
all their junk and then put them on the line and they were awake in the morning. Nobody got to
them and they, after a while, they didn’t like us because we do bad things to them when they
come into our sector. So, they would get established. And then we’d get the division and the
corps level were working their next plan of whatever we would do. So, once in a while, they put
us on Highway 19 as security. So, we had division perimeter security, then you had highway
security. (00:54:26)
Veteran: And the same things would apply as far as staying awake and no alcohol in the—well,
any time you left the base camp, no alcohol whatsoever. Never. And so, that and then other times
we would go onto an area. We’d go back to the Bong Son, which is closer to the ocean, or go
back to the Ia Drang, next to Cambodia, doing some things and shoot them up. We had an
occasional holding action, but not very much. And so then…So, I was the XO up until March.
And we kept delivering things. And one of the things that was kind of interesting: my NCOs did
everything except call me by my first name. They didn’t cross over. They called me everything.
You know, they hit me in the butt but other than that…So, we’d get along just fine. And that’s
fine. You know, I let—I am doing this so I can relate more to people. When I have a tight
haircut, I look mean. But anyway, one of the things that they jokingly said to me, “Strawberry
shakes would be nice, lieutenant.” And so, that word got out. So, I kept landing and I kept
getting that saying. They’d be calling each other, “He’s coming! Tell him.” So anyway, I got that
all over the place. Well, about that time…And this is before that. Okay. So anyway, they had a
unit come in…the 4th infantry, I think it was. (00:56:24)
Interviewer: Mhmm. Yeah, they were at Pleiku, yeah.
�24
Veteran: Okay, they came in and they had some really neat supplies. They had tents with wooden
sides to them. And it had the tent and the wooden side and the screening and oh my goodness.
What did they also have? Hot and cold waders and you know that whatever, house boys? I don’t
know but I do know this. So, we found out about that and we provided some security and
encouragement to them. We shared our things that we were involved in about infantry tactics and
things that you don’t do. One of the things you don’t do: you don’t go to—you don’t go down
the path, you make a path because a path that has already been made is ambushed. It’s either
ambushed with weapons that’ll blow up and kill you. I have a mahogany cross bow that wide and
that long at the tail and when it went off it would have hit somebody in the sternum and killed
them. And the thing—the line or whatever that they use wore out and it didn’t do anything. So, I
got the souvenir; I took that home. So anyway, we went down to Nha Trang when the boats
come in and they had 4th Infantry Division on it. And we traded a few things. And so, we went in
to get some items that might help, that might be a morale builder. (00:58:04)
Veterans: And what it was—they had these boxes…they were dry. You had to put liquid in them
to make them come alive. Malted milk, dry, and you add water. So, we traded something and I
got a whole bunch of that stuff. Enough for the battalion, not just for Bravo company. And so,
we brought that in and Sergeant Rodriguez was busy, he was deployed doing something with our
troops out there and beyond there. And so, we got all this stuff put together and mixed it up,
followed the directions. Boy, it smelled just—it smelled like the real stuff. So, we got it frozen
and we tasted it. Tasted real too. So, we put it in marmite cans and those marmite cans are
bulletproof and, also, they hold cold or they hold heat. So, I had about…I don’t know how many,
but we loaded the Huey helicopter and it was just Spino, myself, the aviator, and the pilot and the
co-pilot, nobody—there wasn’t a crew chief. And so, we flew out there and the heat was so
�25
intense: 140 degrees or warmer. And we flew out there and by the time we came in and we were
going to deliver this load, we told them what it was and they were there to get it so we didn’t
have to—we didn’t want to put our—we didn’t want to touch the ground. So, we just wanted to
get here and they unload it. And they unloaded those things and they were leaking and all of it
was sticky, gooey, all over the floor of the helicopter. And all of these—the struts that were
underneath it were drooling. You know, you could see this long thing coming down when we
were lowering it to the company area and then when we pull out and then go to another area and
do the call ahead and then they were ready for it. Man, they didn’t care if it was hot. And so, we
delivered that and then we went out and delivered the rest. So anyway, that got quiet until they
got into the base camp and then they said, “Man, that—” it did this to our morale. That was just
unbelievable because they were hot and dry. And on patrols at night, we had a guy…we had
some guys that came back from malaria. And they apparently had done well and they got back
on duty. (01:00:36)
Veteran: And I—and so, I was told my buddy, my sidekick, was Corporal Spino. And so…we
tried to please them and find out…so, they came back with warming stories of what this did for
them and then one of our guys, one of our pick-ups we made, there wasn’t a medevac around but
we picked up one of our sergeants and brought him back and flew him to Nha Trang. He took a
bullet right here. And he was alive. So…
Interviewer: Alright, we are continuing our conversation with Roger Talmadge. Now, we
had followed your career in the first sessions, through your initial service in the Navy
Reserves, which included the Army, doing Army intelligence work. And eventually,
connecting with the 11th Division, which is Air Assault Division. Was that their official
title?
�26
Veteran: Air Assault, mhmm.
Interviewer: Yeah. Which became then the 1st Cavalry Division, Air Mobile, in 1965 and
was sent to Vietnam. And as we followed him kind of through that, through helping set up
the division’s base at An Khê and some of the operations he was involved in. By this time,
he has gone from enlisted to officer. Now, and so we kind of got to—around to the end of
1965, early ’66, in terms of your story. Now, before we kind of get into more specifics, you
were serving as the executive officer of your company, is that right? (01:02:26)
Veteran: Right. Of Bravo company.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, and so the job of an executive officer is a little bit different from
a company commander or a platoon leader. Can you explain a little bit the nature of that
job?
Veteran: You can say he is probably the executive or the administrator or the logistician. Also,
the morale officer. Anything like that that would keep the company functional. And of course, it
meets the needs of the commanding officer, the platoons, platoon leaders, the lieutenants. It
doesn’t matter. Whatever they need, you try to meet that. And it becomes very acute and very
pointed when you are in combat. And so, that’s why we created…I finally met this gentleman in
my battalion, a fellow called Spino, and he was a corporal at one point. Finally made that. And
so, we provided supplies as the battle was roaring. We’d really take a load and then come down
with the helicopters and dropped off supplies in the combat zone.
Interviewer: Right. Now when the unit is out in the field, where are you, normally?
Veteran: Back in home base.
�27
Interviewer: Okay. And then, your job there—are you communicating with the people in
the field to figure out where they are, what they need, and keep track of things?
Veteran: Yes. And then also, sometimes when the unit deployed, I would go to the forward
logistic base but still in the administrative support. And looking for opportunities—if anybody
got wounded, we’d try to figure out a way to get them out. And usually, they were picked up by
our medevac evac. That medical evacuation unit and that helicopter-borne unit. And they would
pull them out and bring them to some place that they can get immediate care and then hauled
back to the division headquarters, which had a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital, the MASH. And
it worked out very, very well. And so… (01:04:35)
Interviewer: Okay. So, it’s an essential part of keeping the company functioning. It’s not
necessarily as glamorous as leading people in assaults and so forth but it needs to be done.
Veteran: No, command of nothing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So—but you had to use a lot of creativity to keep the thing alive. Especially when we
brought in the strawberry milk shakes. You know, that was a morale thing. And even though it
turned out to be hot strawberry milk shake, the message got through. And that was key.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And that was very important.
Interviewer: Yeah. The men had told you they wanted their strawberry shakes and you
produced them.
�28
Veteran: So, you try to close those loops. And of course, we bring in mail and then those things
are important. You don’t want to—food and mail are two very important items.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, relating to morale and such issues, do you remember how you
spent Christmas, 1965?
Veteran: Yes, I do. I told you our first day of blood was on 18 December, 1965 and I was located
in a forward base and I operated out of that forward base to haul out those wounded personnel.
And so, right after that, 18, 19, 20, but anyway, right after that we moved to New Pleiku, which
is—you have Pleiku and New Pleiku was created because we put in a large air base there. We
could land a C-141, a large aircraft, that brought in either supplies or personnel. (01:06:17)
Veteran: And so, they’d land at that field. It was run by the Air Force. And it was also—they
didn’t realize they were supplying us with our generators. Because every time they had a raid
and mortar attacks, the air men go running: they go running for the shelters and we go running
for the generators. We had no light. We didn’t have a light system at all. We had no vehicles.
And on occasion, we would find a jeep nobody was using so we’d repaint it and we had a jeep.
And when my jeep was—Spino was driving the jeep one day and he drove off the road. He
missed something so he avoided a problem and it destroyed the jeep. And so, we were on foot.
And these were the same military policemen that came to my B company mess hall for donuts at
12 or 1 o’clock in the morning when on duty. So, they drove up one day and the first sergeant
was there and I got a call on my radio, because I was up forward. I was doing something and
then I’d come back to base camp. And so, he called me and he said, “Somebody brought a jeep
here. Said some logistics supply or whatever organization.” I said, “Repaint the front and rear
bumpers.” And that’s what we did. I had a new jeep. And the military policemen brought it back.
They said, “Thanks for the donuts. Here is a little donation.” So, they disappeared. And then later
�29
on, the first sergeant called me and we had an executive officer that was really a pain on things.
And one time I came back and he was painting all the rocks white like he did at Fort Bragg.
Interviewer: Okay. Was this the executive officer of the battalion? As opposed to—
(01:08:13)
Veteran: The executive officer of the battalion, a major, would come down and—
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: --and give them all these orders. He didn’t have any authority either but he’d give them
the orders of do this and do that and spit shine and stuff. One day, the first sergeant called me.
He says, “You know, we got 10 or 15 dogs around here. They’re wild. They’re just running
around and they’d get food and so they tell their buddies and they show up. So, we’ve got about
10 or 15 of these things.” And the executive officer, the major, told him, “Well First Sergeant,
you get rid of them.” So, I said, “First Sergeant,” he says, “Yes, 5?” “Get ready on your next
load 4 for each canine creatures: load them in.” So, it took about 4 airlifts; we got rid of all of
them. I had to be creative with this because they’d drive him nuts because he was supposed to—
he was important. If I were to bring in somebody dead, you know, if we were bringing somebody
to grave registration, we needed him to be there to receive them. Otherwise, I would take them to
grave registration. But he would take them to grave registration. But I—we documented he got
them from me and then they got them from him. And so, the wounded died en route or whatever,
killed in action, were never left alone.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, I—we had started this bit with my asking about Christmas ’65.
So, nothing particularly special about it but you happened to just be at New Pleiku? Or…?
�30
Veteran: Oh, okay. So, we went to New Pleiku and I changed the subject. Well, when we went to
New Pleiku, we were rest and relaxation. And so, there was a unit that gave us security so we
didn’t even have to do that. Well, Sergeant Rodriguez showed up and he cooked a meal that
would—oh my goodness. And we had quite a few visitors. And also, General Johnson, I think
his name…General Johnson showed up and when the word got out to Rodriguez that Johnson is
showing up, he quickly ran out of the back of the tent where he was cooking a big turkey and a
bunch of other things and he had some help, so he wasn’t alone. When he put his regular uniform
on, he was a platoon sergeant. He was one of our platoon sergeants and went out in combat. So,
Johnson showed up and says, “Where’s Rodriguez?” and so, he came out of behind something.
“Here I am, sir.” “Are you in the tent cooking?” “Oh no, sir. No, I am a platoon sergeant.” And
so, when he left, he put his apron back on, went back in there and did the cooking. (01:10:46)
Veteran: But he—now, General Johnson had lunch with us and it was wonderful. And he
enjoyed it and he says, “I still have remembrance. Rodriguez is in here somewhere, doing
something, but I can’t catch him.” So, that was his comment he left. Then, the chaplain had a
service. We had 21 killed in recent times. Seven that one day and another 14 scattered over a
little bit of time during the month of December and the end of November, because we came out
of Ia Drang Valley with some kills. So, we had that. And in my orderly room, and this is kind of
vulgar, in my orderly room I had a Christmas tree. And I had beer cans hanging on it and
condominiums—
Interviewer: Condoms.
Veteran: Condoms. A whole bunch of trash like that. And he was going to report me to the
executive officer and court martial me for being sacrilege. I said, “Chaplain, let me tell you
something: that’s today. By spring, this is going to be a beautiful tree because we brought
�31
freedom to these people. And it’s going to be wonderful and all this other stuff. You’ll even see
it: it’ll go away.” “Really?” So, what did he do? Here he is honoring these 21 souls that have
passed, that have given their lives, have given it everything, they were good soldiers. We loved
every all of them. From all the companies. (01:12:14)
Veteran: And so, he said, “Let me tell you what Vietnam, South Vietnam, looks like today and
what it will look like in the future because of your sacrifice.” And so, he kicked off and he had
Bible references and all that other stuff that I didn’t have. I just, you know, we were just running
that way because we were mad at everything. We really were upset. Our hearts were broken.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, the mention of the decorations of the tree and so forth reminds
me of another question that I wanted to bring in and that is that 1st cavalry division, when
it set up its base at An Khê, had some unusual accoutrements I believe. And one of them
was there was a brothel right outside the gate that the division itself managed. Do you
recall that? Did that kind of thing…Did that keep problems under control or did it
contribute to problems? Or…?
Veteran: What it did: one of our soldiers painted that big sign and it said ‘fun, travel, and
adventure.’ That’s how he signed them. And I said, “Good. There are several ways you could
interpret that.” So, it was a beautiful sign and the generals left it alone. But all of us knew. We
came in, that was one of our high spots. We came—we left from that and went and came back to
it. A little bit of a rebel in each of our troopers.
Interviewer: Okay. But on the whole, were morale and discipline pretty good at that point?
Veteran: Our battalion…we were busy. We were almost in the field all the time. We came back,
cleaned up, shaved up, you know, got our act together, picked up new guys. And when I got a
�32
lieutenant, I assigned him to one of our platoon sergeants. And the platoon sergeant was in
charge for at least a week or two. And the lieutenant did everything the sergeant told him;
otherwise I’d have him for lunch. And he wouldn’t like it. And that kept them alive. So, very,
very well. (01:14:19)
Veteran: When they came back, they know that after they cleaned their weapon and got their
uniform and the other accoutrements that they carried cleaned up, they’d get a nice meal.
Rodriguez would show up and cook them a wonderful feast. And they got beer and that was the
end of that. And then, they’d get ready for the next assignment, either perimeter duty or another
assignment out on the highway, which is also a defense or assault into some area that needed
restoration and feed ‘em… introduced to that area. So, no. We got along well with each other.
We had no fragging. None of this stuff. No crossing over. At least, in Bravo Company
particularly but other companies too. We had no fragging whatsoever. And one of my soldiers
got in trouble. He rebelled against something and I think I told you that we brought him to the
tent and we had him dig a 6 by 6 and put a quarter in it and I went and inspected the quarter and
said, “Now, bury it.” And he finally wised up. He was a really fine, non-commissioned officer.
But we took care of them while we were back at Benning and we kept doing that. And we kept
doing that. And we didn’t take—we didn’t let little problems…We didn’t ignore them. Because
it—and we didn’t baby them either. So, that was important. So, we left—we pulled out of New
Pleiku in January and went back to the field and got engaged in some forward looking, or
forward, areas. One of the areas that we went into a couple times was in Bong Son, which is up
along the sea coast there. (01:16:10)
Veteran: And there was a…Every time we went in there, we had to start afresh because the bad
guys were in there and they’d leave after we ran them off and then they’d come back and do bad
�33
things. And so, we did that a number of times. And then also, down Highway 19, had…just south
of Binh Dinh, where 18 December battle took place, we landed at Phuket and that was a forward
base. And while I was there, some of our wounded guys were in different places. I did not go to
the field but they ended up in that hospital in that town I keep forgetting on the coast.
Interviewer: You have Quy Nhon and Nha Trang.
Veteran: Quy Nhon.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: They had an evacuation hospital there. Excellent surgery unit and all that stuff. So,
they’d end up in there and that’s where the one guy that was shot close to his heart…I’d go visit
him and the doctors went crazy because Spino and I had all this—we had our automatic weapons
and hand grenades and we are walking in, seeing this sergeant, and I am cooing over him. And—
but I said, “My goodness, he fell asleep. And I am not going to say anything. That’s a court
martial offense. You came back. You were deathly ill when you left us and you came back and
you were exhausted.” And what happened was the enemy patrol came right through where they
put their foxholes on a trail. You never do that. Well they did and the AK was pointed right at
him and he went like this and it missed his heart by that much. And that’s what saved his life.
And of course, they took care of him, the bad guy, and ran him off. But no, we didn’t—just
cooed over him, loved on him, and left. And of course, there was captains that outweighed me
and so I—you know, we got in our jeep and took off. But we…But that was—that’s what we did.
But also went back to Phuket. (01:18:14)
Veteran: We ran out of jungle fatigues. We’d rip them up, mess them up, and all that stuff and
our leather boots were falling off. So, I gave Spino one private first class and I said, “You take
�34
him and I want you to go down to the 80, whatever, 5th evac and get in their supply room where
they have all the stuff that soldiers have come in and they leave their equipment because we need
equipment. And just tell them that you were directed to come here and clean the place up and
help the nurses out by doing so.” So, they did and the nurses were so pleased and patted them on
the back for being so helpful. And man, we got uniforms for a lot of the guys that didn’t have
any in our battalion. And we also picked up some pouches that we needed and web gear and
odds and ends. But that thing was a mess, that supply point. It was just terrible, so we cleaned it
all up and it ended up where we could issue it immediately. Also, that’s when I went blind. I lost
vision. It was fog over my eyes. And so, I went down to the same evacuation hospital in Qui
Nhon and the doctor measured each of my corneas and then prescribed a cream that I think, as I
mentioned before, that in a couple weeks that went away and that was just fine. So, I got back to
duty and I didn’t get stuck with anything.
Interviewer: Okay. So, did you have to stay in the hospital for those two weeks? Or you
just got the cream and went back to—
Veteran: No, I was out in the field as soon as that started clearing up. It kept going and got
clearer and it got really well. So then, right after that, sometime after that, I was moved from
Bravo company into the battalion headquarters and became the intelligence officer for the
battalion. Now, the intelligence officer provided information on the order of battle, composition
of not only your forces but possibly the enemy, if you could capture that information. Well, you
had two types of enemy. You had the regulars that had formations and then you had the
irregulars that showed up everywhere. They’d ambush you anywhere, at any time. (01:20:34)
Veteran: Indiscrete at all, at best. And so, I started with that and I got—I had a conference with a
commanding officer so the executive officer didn’t get me. I said, “I am not going to be the bond
�35
control. I am not going to sell bonds, war bonds, or anything else bonds, or run the officers’ club.
I am going to do my job. And this is my primary job. I am not going to carry the map for the
lieutenant colonel either.” So, they put the word out and he was fine with all of that. Fact is, he
enjoyed the intelligence service kinds of stuff and he was a close—he kept watching me because
I was the only direct commissioned mustang in the outfit. I was a misfit. And so, without his
support, I would have been lost. But he was our first battlefield commander. And so, he took
good care of me and so I came up to the staff and all the documents that were messed up were
taken care of so he wouldn’t get in trouble. Then, 2 E-6 sergeants—I got with them and they
were sharp guys and I said, “You want to try something new?” Because I also was familiar with
the Soviet…what they call ‘defense in depth.’ And what it is: they start out here and have some
defense and as you—the closer you get to the core gets intense. And it’s maximum when you get
to the perimeter of their headquarters, your unit or whatever was out there in their field location.
(01:22:06)
Veteran: So—and what we did, we reversed that and called it ‘surveillance in depth.’ And so, we
experimented with that. We had—and we also needed some way of generating random numbers.
Now remember, I didn’t have a college education but I knew somebody told me or whatever—
but I said, “Get me a math—one of these math books that has numbers in it.” And one—sure
enough, there was a place where you could pick a set of numbers and you just scramble them.
And it told you how to do it. And we started that and we laid out everything around us for about
10 or 15 kilometers and we started this way and went like this. And then we broke them out
according to the geographic stretch around it and we gave a unique number, alpha numeric
number, for each of these sites. And then we’d change it every 24 hours. And so, each one was
given a symbol and some symbols meant that the patrol would come out like this. And I got in a
�36
helicopter and I looked at the division base camp and they had these trails that went out a
kilometer and they came across here and they came back in like that and they were all over the
place. And that—by the time they went out, the enemy knew that they were coming so they’d
ambush them here. And they wondered why. “Gee, every time we go out, we get ambushed.” So,
what we did, we were in the same situation, but I’d fly them out and dump them in here and
they’d be listening close at night and then they’d slowly move in this way and they’d catch these
guys in some kind of a mode of ambush and we’d ambush them. They couldn’t understand that.
And then sometimes, some were marked where, indiscriminately, usually it was after dark. I’d
have two gunships go by at this area, this geographic area, and they’d just shoot it up. No—it
was a—we kept out, away from it. Or, I’d mortar this place and do something else over here.
(01:24:13)
Veteran: And usually when we had these listening posts at night and we’d shoot up something,
we’d catch folks come in and we’d capture them. And after—and the other thing that we did,
instead of, as you’ve heard in some of your presentations, you’d have half the men in rest and
half the men on security. We broke it in thirds. We’d have half—30% on security and 30% on
reconnaissance, and 30% sleeping. And they got more rest that way. And then after a while, I
had permission again from the same battalion commander, I raided all the rifle companies in
Delta company, which is our weapons company, and I had 5-man teams that’d go out 15 or 20
kilometers away from where we were. And again, this outer ring had its uniqueness too and it—
that would change. So, we couldn’t fire into it with anything unless that changed or somebody
moved laterally out of it somehow. And so, I went up to the G-2, which is the lieutenant colonel.
And he knew me because I was the first direct commission in the military intelligence service.
And so, they watched me very carefully and they—whatever we wanted because I could ask
�37
them specifically about stuff that none of the other guys that had that job that was an S-2 knew
about. And so, I had heat-seeking aircraft loaded with heat-seeking equipment. And so, at night
I’d put somebody out here or out here and so I’d—we’d run a line, knowing where the Ho Chi
Minh Trail basically is a bunch of trails, right off it, 15-1600 of them. And so, what you’re
looking for: any kind of heat mass. And if it got near to us, our guys would click and let us know
okay, they are passing. And they’d just sit there and do nothing. They never shot a round. And it
was 6 or 7 months that I was doing this. (01:26:24)
Veteran: But anyway, and then we’d wait until they got way down here where we had a
registration point and we’d hit it with a massive artillery and then we’d wait two hours, put the
birds back up. And if the heat mass was moving, we left it alone. If the heat mass was still
moving, we’d set up an ambush down here. And so, I didn’t lose any people that way. I don’t
know what they lost; I have no idea.
Interviewer: Now, 15 to 20 kilometers out is an awfully long way for an infantry battalion
to do business, isn’t it? And I don’t recall that as being—normally, we leave that kind of
thing up to long range reconnaissance patrols or special forces types or other things like
that. But you were just kind of improvising that with the battalion?
Veteran: Yeah. We cheated. Yeah, we had these aircraft that we purchased from Canada. They
were 2 engine aircraft that could loiter a long time. And—but they didn’t fly fast and out the tail
assembly, they had all these antennas. And we could talk to the world. and so, these guys here go
ploof and we get it immediately. Or get it into one of our major systems and it could go across
the division or some place else. And so, we always had it. And then when the plane was—had
been on station for a while, another one would come in and take over and this one would shut
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down and fly back to where we were and refuel. So, they always had close communication all
the time. But we didn’t let them talk.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Because you could pick them up but if they click-click or there was somebody, nobody
knew what that was. We did but they didn’t.
Interviewer: Right. So, you never had to go and extract some of these people? (01:28:09)
Veteran: Oh, yes. Oh, we’d extract them. We’d have some kind of a faint kind of a thing. We’d
fly in birds sometimes and do this and then fly out. And then, so we’d come again as if we are
going to land the second time with troops and the enemy would assault. When they did, we’d just
blow the landing zone away and pull back out. But sometimes we’d fly and we’d check the area
and we got no heat mass and so we’d come in and we had gunships to support them and we’d
load them up and pull them out. And picking up 5 guys is real simple.
Interviewer: Because one Huey could do that? What do you think? Would one Huey be
enough to pick up the 5?
Veteran: Usually. Worst case, worst scenario, hot weather with a high humidity, we could carry
6. That’s what the rescue was in December.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, it was very hot and also the humidity was up. So, we could use one Huey but we
brought the other one anyway. And so, they’d do this and then fly up. But the enemy thought oh
boy, he’s bringing more troops. We are not; we didn’t bring anything in. And so, after a while we
captured these guys and we couldn’t figure out what we were doing. We’d ask them…We’d try
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to get a sense of what’s going on with them and whatever little unit they had out there, trying to
ambush us. And they’d say, “You everywhere. We no find you.” That’s right because we just
raided the area and left it and, of course, we had people somewhere else. But they never could
find us. So, we documented that thing and it’s registered in the Department of Defense archives.
And its ‘surveillance in depth.’ And it stopped surprise attack of the 1st Cav Division
headquarters. And when you go the field and in May we went to the field and Operation…Gosh,
I forget the name it had. Crazy Horse. Crazy Horse and we landed in a valley. (01:30:17)
Veteran: And the first thing is I was screaming at him, “Companies! Get your patrols out.” So, B
company put their patrol out, Alpha company put their patrol out, and Charlie company was in
reserve. And whatever they were doing back was covered. And I was in the headquarters down
in this valley and up top side must have been elements of a regiment. And they were dug in.
They were dug in: they had a headquarters underground and tunneled and everything else. They
had already raided a couple areas over here and over here to our flanks and killed everybody. All
the Americans—the unit was lost. And we started taking fire. And so, what these two, Alpha
company and Bravo did, they assaulted up the hill and engaged them and actually destroyed their
communication system. And we lost some people there. I lost a lieutenant in that one. We got
one…one…what do you call it? We got a Medal of Honor out of that and a bunch of Silver Stars
and so forth. And the only thing that I was concerned about is we were setup in a trap. We should
never have gone in there. Why do you go—tactics tell you you don’t go in a valley. You go—
you take the upper level and move out from there. We didn’t do that and so what they did,
they—right after this thing started and it got quiet—they came in heavy. Our forces came in
heavy and pulled us out and then they bombed the place out of existence after we left. (01:32:05)
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Veteran: And so, Spino was up dropping stuff, food and ammunition and water and who knows
what to them. They didn’t know that I wasn’t on the helicopter. Well, he learned how to do it
well so I made sure he got a special Bronze Star for that. But now that—that was a mess. So, that
was a…one situation where it just…surveillance in depth paid off handsomely for us. And then
we—our battalion became corps reserve. We were placed in corps reserve and we are sitting
somewhere in the highlands. And the Navy had helo-ed in from the…it’s the helicopter borne
landing ship. And so, they put in a battalion-sized unit in the Bong Son and they were ambushed.
They were really surprised. And so, they called on us to come alongside of them. You know, we
trust our Marine buddies. We don’t say anything about them. What happened was, and as an
enlisted man, a former enlisted man, I was furious. I exploded on the officers. And that was at 2
in the morning. They all went and got up for breakfast. And they had their milk shakes and they
had their bacon and they had their eggs and all this stuff and then a couple hours later, they heloed in there in 140 degree temperature and they were throwing up. Now, they are brave soldiers
but somebody in command allowed them to make them immobile. They were ineffective. And
so, until they go ahold of themselves, we just secured the area and moved the enemy forward.
The enemy was wiped out by 500 Snake Eaters because our battalion was bad news when we
showed up. And but we were together and we were tight and our officers made sure that
we…After our two beers when we got back, nothing. And then you filled yourself up with water.
That was a big deal and food; whatever you could. We only ate one meal a day. That’s all we
had. (01:34:36)
Interviewer: Right. Now, did you get an R and R during that tour in Vietnam?
Veteran: I got an R and R for about a week and I took that in Thailand.
Interviewer: Okay.
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Veteran: And I had one of my buddies, one of my platoon sergeants, with me. Elrod was his
name. And he was a guy that was so obstinate for all the right reasons. When we inspected his
barracks, all the other barracks you walk in there and the floors are spit-shined, you know? You
see the glare in your face. His were nice and clean. He said, “I don’t want to waste time cleaning
this stuff when my troops—they need to be well trained and refreshed to do their primary job,
and that’s become a fighter.”
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was that back in the states when that was going on?
Veteran: That was back in the states and then we deployed to Vietnam together. He was still in a
rifle company. He was one of the ones that came to me and said, “Get rid of the commander.”
And so, he and I went there and enjoyed quite a…Well you know, I ate food I never ate before. I
don’t know what was in there but it was all good. And then we left; we came back home. And it
was kind of funny: in the Navy I flew in C-54s. And what it was was a passenger/logistics
aircraft with 4 engines. And turbo prop. And this one had a problem on the starboard side. One
of the engines just wouldn’t start. So, what they did, they took a—we were—we had to stand
away from the craft and the pilot and the co-pilot…I don’t know. They cranked up the engines
just absolutely and then they, what I call pop the clutch, and they let go of the brakes and went
roaring down the field and at some time they put the magneto over on that starboard engine and
the thing just began and it kicked in. Then, they came back with everything turned off except that
one engine and then we loaded on and they flew us back. But that plane—I don’t know how long
they flew it that way. It was the admiral’s personal plane. It had beautiful wood in it and all that
stuff. A little desk. But he let us use that to go on R and R. (01:36:54)
Interviewer: Alright. And so, when do you leave Vietnam?
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Veteran: Oh, I just…one other thing happened.
Interviewer: Oh, I am not—I am just using this for reference so answer that question and
then we go back.
Veteran: To answer the question, I left in August, ’66.
Interviewer: Okay. So, kind of go back now to where you were.
Veteran: Okay. Now, what I want to remember is the time my company commander, Roy
Martin, went on R and R. And he was a fighter. He said, “If I am not in a war, I am going to get
out of the service. I am just not going to do it. I did World War 2 and Korea. I have always been
in the military in the front line.” He was an Airborne Ranger and all this stuff. He did 1300
parachute jumps. In World War 2, the parachutes were like this. And he was testing—that was
the T-7. The T-10 would come in like this and you could do something like this and it would go
this way. If you dumped the air out that way, it would go that way. And so, you can maneuver
with that thing and get away from stuff. And that’s what saved my life because I almost crashed
into an ambulance, a steel ambulance, on one of my jumps. But anyway, so the battalion
commander got ahold of me and the exec officer and he marched Roy Martin out to the little
airstrip where the helicopter came in and he stood him to attention and he had me take away all
of his web gear, everything, except his wallet and whatever. And so, he gave him a direct order
to board the helicopter, get out of there, and I will see you next week. So, he left. (01:38:26)
Veteran: Soon as he left, and before he cleared the area, I called the rifle company. I said, “This
is left tackle 6. A former left tackle 6 is now airborne out of the area. I am in charge. Out.” So, I
took his signal, I took his command. So, one of the things I commanded was when the 25th
infantry division came in, they were to go to the 3rd brigade into the New Pleiku area and they
�43
were on kind of a hill. So, they had a commanding view. And General Westmoreland came in
and fired the first artillery round. We—our rifle company provided their security. So, we ran
these patrols like a…we ran patrols right. We did some things but we were still kind of…I
couldn’t get the G-2 involved yet. But we still did some things to make sure that this village
didn’t get involved with us. So, we kept them safe. And nobody shot at us and we were fine.
Problem was I was a first lieutenant still and I go to the staff meeting and Colonel Stautner—oh,
of course he had been around for a long time and his battalion commanders would meet and his
company commanders would meet for a briefing that evening about the enemy situation,
weather, terrain, anything. And so, then they’d ask me—say, “Okay now, our guest who is
providing our defense, would also like to have some room for a briefing.” So, I had briefing. I’d
brief them on how we are deployed and what we are ready for and our experience. And we
had—we were trained by the 173rd Airborne Brigade about what you don’t do. (01:40:19)
Veteran: So, I am going to give you some lessons about that. And especially these…I know West
Point captains, they hear that they just—they didn’t know who I was. They didn’t know if I was
West Point or Shang Soo, whatever. But they knew I was a first lieutenant and here I am talking
to them that way. And I said, “One of the things you need to learn right off is that you’ve got
your inside perimeter and you have your privates and corporals and all that pretty much out there
and the sergeants are in charge of their fire teams and squads and so forth. Now, they are to keep
their weapons unloaded. Ammunition handy but unloaded. And then, if we get overrun, when
one of our privates or sergeants come running through and jumps in one of your foxholes, he will
tell you when to load.” And one captain stood up and said, “Lieutenant Talmadge, I heard what
you said but I am not going to do that.” And I said, “Sir, I’ll shoot your ass.” And I walked out.
So every—from that day on, Stautner referred to me, “And tonight we will be briefed by Little
�44
Caesar.” And I could say anything after that because he was a danger to us. I’d have had him
relieved. We had no choice. And then, in my clever, I tried to—it was New Year’s. So, what do
you do on New Year’s? You have fireworks. So, we had fireworks. I said, “Okay. Mortar
platoon; fire mission. Over.” And they went straight up, as far as they’d go, and they’d go poof.
Well, the wind caught it and it flew into the village and caught part of it on fire. So, I thought:
well, there goes my commission. (01:42:06)
Veteran: It was out the window. And my guys—our platoons went down there and put it out and
the lieutenant, the second lieutenant, I remember he came in. he chewed me out. He just—he
said, “That was irresponsible. What’s wrong with you? You lose your mind?” And he just ripped
me up. But anyway, I said, “Okay, thank you. Forgive me. I am sorry.” But anyway, everything
was safe. But everyone else was laughing. And then, one of the things: foxholes are for people.
Interviewer: Yes.
Veteran: That’s a rule. And so, I got in one foxhole—I was dead dog tired—and I just needed 15
minutes. I took my poncho, put it over me. All of a sudden, it started raining and I discovered
one of those idiots is pissing in the foxhole. And I screamed at him; he took off. I don’t know
who it was but I had to go wash that thing out. I didn’t get a direct hit but still, it’s the idea. That
was a lesson. The foxholes have got to be available for use, not for using it for a urinal or worse.
You know, you take care of that out somewhere else. So, it was a man—I don’t know if it was
one of the new guys and he didn’t understand. But there’s an orientation we all have to go
through. So, that was kind of a remembering thing.
Interviewer: Okay. Were there other larger operations you were involved in, or your unit
was involved in, once you were doing intelligence work?
�45
Veteran: Right. When I was…I got promoted to captain in March, whatever it was. And so after
Bong Son and this other thing with the Marines coming into that area, so we were there several
times, but we were somewhere in the forward base. And so, I went forward and I was walking
with my old rifle company. We were on patrol. And they made sure they had—I had machine
gunners. This black guy I told you about, he was over on my flank. He had a machine gun and
nobody was going to touch his lieutenant to be made captain and working at the headquarters.
And so, they watched me like a hawk. (01:44:21)
Veteran: And the brigade commander found out that I was out on the front line. “What is a
staff—” He just exploded. He couldn’t get me; I was out there. What are they going to do? So, I
stayed out there and then we came up to an area where some guy was out in the farm field and he
was harvesting corn or I don’t know what it was. We told him…and so he got down and we had
him come to us. And so, one of our guys—the G-2 from the division got me a South Vietnamese
soldier who was fluent in 5 different languages: English, French, and dialects of Vietnamese.
And we are in with Montagnards and some other things had happened and we got involved in.
So, we talked to the guy and we told him: “This is a peaceful mission, we want to bring freedom
and quietness to your village.” And he bought into that. So, when we came in, he got the chief
with us and the chief said, “Okay, tonight I will show you where the ambush sites have been set
up.” So, we captured that whole outfit without firing anything. Nobody got hurt. So, that was
one. One of the things that I used to do is I’d go in with the hamlet chief. It was a great honor for
them for me to come to them. And my Vietnamese was terrible. But anyway, I took this guy with
me and so I’d drink their rice wine and after a while, I wasn’t worth anything. So, I’d make sure
a helicopter was out there for me. I’d get up above 5000 feet, it’d take me about a half an hour
and I could be completely sober. (01:46:05)
�46
Veteran: So, a couple things happened with that. I remember one time we were in the field and I
was just doing my normal job: to make sure our perimeter was safe and that our troops had
deployed out to do something but we still had our patrols. And even the hamlets used to give us
personnel to lead our patrols, and that is dangerous. But these guys have fought in the ‘50s
against the Viet Minh and so, “We will keep you safe.” And they did. They’d do this and
“Everybody get down.” And they’d bring back a Claymore mine that had been rigged to go off
and explode its 1000 BBs at us. And that’s where I got—in one of those, I got my mahogany
cross bow. And that would have killed us. The other thing that they—if you tripped a little thing
on the ground, this ball, this mud ball full of bamboo sticks dipped in feces—human feces—
would come down the trail and tear you up. And the feces would get—not only were you torn up
but you had that infection in your system and it could kill you. So, they’d go in and bring that all
back as souvenirs. So, we did that for a while. And then in one place, we knew the enemy was
around us. That’s when I put out folks in the heat system. We knew they were around us. It was a
fresh unit and they had a lot of supplies and a full complement. And so, one of the hamlet chiefs
sent a runner to where I was because I had the medical folks with me too. And the hamlet chief’s
wife has got a terrible cough. I am not a doctor; I don’t know what that means. So, I got ahold of
my chief medic. He is really a super guy. I mean, he is a real good meatball surgeon. (01:48:08)
Veteran: And so, he went out and he was gone a long time. So, we—I was there in the
morning—so we—I was in the chow line, waiting to get fed and this—he comes back, this
sergeant first class and he talks about my ancestors loud. I mean loud and aggressive, calling me
all these horrible names. And I said, “What’s wrong, sergeant? What’s got you?” He said, “The
baby was breech and I had to turn it around and it was born fine. But you should have known
better, captain.” I didn’t know better. I don’t know. So anyway, that was a crazy thing. Another
�47
thing was we went to another chief’s…We drove there and I had my medical team with me. And
so, the chief met us there and he knew we were coming. They knew everything. And so, we
came in and we had our, you know, our greetings to each other. And my guy talking about how
are things going, enemy activity? Yes, there is but you are safe. There is nothing around right
now that will…that will get to you. And that’s fine. And we are glad you are here and thank you
for helping us. Some of them had leprosy and all’s we could give them some cream to take the
pain away. But we couldn’t help them. They’d just eventually die. So, we’d get there one night
and they died so we gave them room so they could have their funeral. We didn’t disturb
anything. And so anyway, I got back to where I—where the tents are, where our mess hall was—
and the runner from that same village came running in and he told my interpreter, he said, “The
hamlet chief just wanted you to know, captain, that the ambush that was set up to kill you they
were sitting on, 3 huts down from where you met.” They were sitting on them. Took their
weapons away and were sitting on them. (01:50:07)
Veteran: Isn’t that crazy? So, that was kind of nice. But we really got along with the
Montagnards. We had a South Vietnamese full colonel who was an artillery officer. I don’t know
how we got ahold of him but he was…he came to visit. And there was a full row company. Are
you familiar with them? It’s a bunch of renegades. It’s a bunch of Vietnamese, Cambodians,
Laos, whatever. Rebels. And they were fighting for freedom for South Vietnam. So, if they’d see
us and we went by them and they set up an ambush, they would just do this. We never saw them.
Then they’d just shush. And we’d walk right by them. And it might be 150 of them in that area
and they’d just sit there and watch us and we’d go through. Anyway, they had several groups and
they’d set up so they couldn’t be wiped out all at once. And they had good security. This guy
�48
ordered a fire mission against them. And so, what we did: we put them on a helicopter and we
arrested him.
Interviewer: So, which guy…the Vietnamese colonel?
Veteran: The South Vietnamese colonel.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we arrested him and dined him and wined him and showed up him up and then we
told our headquarters who was out there. And what happened was they put up their full row flag,
they were so bold. And that’s what got us attacked. Otherwise, he didn’t know. So, we sent a
note to him. We didn’t go there ourselves but we stayed away from him. And that was an
unusual encounter.
Interviewer: What impression did you have of the South Vietnamese civilians, to the extent
that you saw them? Ethnic Vietnamese as opposed to the Montagnards or…
Veteran: We had…The villages that we were in when we got—went in to free a village—those
are hamlets too—but many of them were not…Montagnards were mountain people, whereas the
villagers were in a valley and they were farmers mostly. I don’t know anything else they raised
except they had rice paddies and some of them really good. My second tour to Vietnam, we fixed
those up in a really unique way but these guys were working hard and they didn’t cause us any
trouble. Maybe some were Viet Cong; we didn’t know it. But if they come around at night, we
took care of it. (01:52:43)
Interviewer: Right.
�49
Veteran: So, they didn’t get us. And we generally were well received, just like the one where he
was quiet in the field and they gave us hot corn. We were hungry, we were hot, and we needed
water and this hot, really hot, fresh corn was…oh, what a treat that was. I don’t know if we had
gotten poisoned or not. we were going to go and great, great shape. That—none of us got sick
with that stuff. They cooked it. Whatever was in it was dead so it didn’t bother us. So, those were
excellent. But the Montagnards really went out of their way and they’d give us intelligence
briefings and everything. These guys would never tell us anything except for that one after we
left. They knew that that ambush site was going to kill me. They already knew before anything I
did. I’d sneeze and down the road they would say in Vietnamese “gesundheit” or something
because they knew what we were doing. But the Montagnards were very sensitive about us being
in their area. But very helpful.
Interviewer: Alright. Other aspects of the latter part of that first Vietnam tour that kind of
stand out for you? Or do you think you have run through most of them now, or…?
(01:54:05)
Veteran: I think I ran about—I think I hit…There’s one. We came into a town and you come
down 19 and you go off to one side. I forget where it was. It’s a mountainous area and it’s called
Ban Me Thuot,and that’s a resort. It was in the ‘50s. Actually, all of Vietnam was the pearl of the
Orient. It had some beautiful mansions, wonderful service, and gracious people. And it was
just…with that French flavor to it. And then the French went in there and shot the place up. And
the fact is, I met a French attaché driver in—when I was in Oberammergau. I could dance in
French dance steps and all the guys drool and here’s this punk with this beautiful woman, French
woman, she was airborne medic. And if you messed with her, she’d break your arm. She didn’t
mess with me and those guys were drooling. But anyway, so we went to Ban Me Thuot, and the
�50
idea was when you come in, you leave your weapons some place so the North Vietnamese who
were there had their weapons somewhere not with them. So, I don’t know. We might have had a
mule with some of the North Vietnamese but we were talking back and forth. I don’t know;
talking about family or talking about the weather. Anything but war. And I remember some of
our pilots in the 1st cav, if you were an officer or somebody and you’re flying in one of the
bubbles, they’d teach you how to fly that thing. And so, somebody was teaching one of our high
ranking officers and they came in with a bubble and what you are supposed to do is fire up
gently and then you set it down. You don’t do this.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:56:02)
Veteran: And what happened was he did it wrong and the skids hit this way and it just wrenched
everything apart right underneath him. And he took the apparatus that steers it and he threw it
through the windshield. We had to go pick up that thing and take it away. The reason I didn’t get
that—I could fly them when we were up but I wasn’t allowed to fly them because I couldn’t keep
it steady, just like it was all over the place. No, you can’t land or take off these things. If you
want to do that, you can do that up here. But we—I’d go out on reconnaissance with them and
we’d look around and the enemy would shoot at us. They could shoot—they had anti-aircraft
guns that could shoot 1500 feet in the air. And I thought they were flies. “Look at the flies!”
They said, “They’re not flies.” They were gray things, long gray things. They were tracers.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: I didn’t know that. But anyway so, I can’t think of anything else.
Interviewer: Alright. So, we get down now to August, ’66…
Veteran: ’66, yeah.
�51
Interviewer: So, that’s time to rotate home. So, what’s the process now for getting you back
to the states?
Veteran: Well, basically, I was in good health; that was good. And I didn’t—all the documents
that I had were turned in properly so there was accountability there. The weapons and equipment
I had were all accounted for. That was basically it. And then, they took me to New Pleiku, to the
airfield. And I got on a C-141 Starlifter and flew to San Francisco.
Interviewer: Okay, so again, you don’t get the chartered civilian jet thing. You are on a
military aircraft.
Veteran: I am on a military aircraft and boy, when it hauled the wheels up, we all hooped it up
because we were homebound.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, are you still married at this point? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, I got married when I was in Germany. I married a German girl and we had 3
children together.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you get leave home once you come back? When you come back
from Vietnam, do you get leave home for 30 days or do they just send you to another base
or what happens? (01:58:15)
Veteran: Well no, they gave me—I think I had 30-day vacation or leave. My wife was there. She
really didn’t want to have anything to do with me when I got there. Hmm…She made friends
with one of my brother’s friends and propositioned him, I found out later on. And so, that
marriage was on the way out and I didn’t know it. She had told her friends in Fort Benning
where I had left, I left from Fort Benning, went to there and I was coming back to the Fort
�52
Benning, Georgia area. I landed in San Francisco and then she and I flew to Columbus, Georgia.
My mother was still alive so she spent a couple days there. Then my brother Richard, oldest
brother, was there. He’s the one that was in the Navy for about 4-5 years. And so, we had some
time. And then I got into Columbus, Georgia and everything was just sort of strange. I couldn’t
understand it. The kids seemed to be okay. But that was where it ended. And I found out, later
on, I found out that she had talked of what kind of a mean person I was. I don’t know. And
whatever it was. But she was very unfaithful while I was gone. And I think she had a miscarriage
while I was gone too. I didn’t know about it. When we had that battle on the 18th of December,
she wept during that time while I was gone. Because that was the time she could look out the
window—she was living in a civilian house because we had to move off post. And the Army
brown, you know, Army brown sedan with a white star on it would come in the neighborhood
and it had a survival assistance officer and a chaplain in it. And she was crying because it never
stopped at our house. (02:00:21)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That was a terrible welcome home. I just kept that to myself. But that was…I don’t
know how many of our guys went through that but at least that pain I can share with those that
have gone through that too. So, alright, so I got back into there and then I had orders to report to
come back to Fort Holabird, Maryland. And I was going to get back into the intelligence advance
course. And so, I bought a house because I was going to be there for a while. And what happened
was I went through the advanced course and did well. And then from that, they sent me to get my
college education. Now, know—remember I talked to you about this surveillance in depth that I
had to get a math book?
Interviewer: Right.
�53
Veteran: Math is not my subject and I only had a high school diploma, whatever, certificate. And
so, they sent me to the University of Maryland to learn computer science.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Information systems management. I liked the word ‘management.’ I didn’t understand
the rest. But I got in there and it almost killed me because it was all math. It was all logic. The
fact is, computers are nothing but a logic machine. It’s either on or off. and you put it in parallel
series depending on what you are doing. So, I learned an awful lot about that. And during that
time, I came home one day and there was a note on the refrigerator that said, “I am leaving to
find myself.” Hmm…Nobody was in the house. Nobody was in the house; 3 children are gone. I
found one downtown, one was with my mother back to San Francisco, and the other was in
Germany with grandpa. And so, I notified them and the grandpa disowned his daughter.
Interviewer: Now, how old were the kids at that time?
Veteran: 10, 7, and 5.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The boy was 10, and the 2 girls were 5 and 7.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. (02:02:45)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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TalmadgeR2152V2
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Talmadge, Roger S.
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2017-09
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 2), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge went to Vietnam with an advanced party, the 11th air assault division, which became the 1st cavalry division, air mobile in 1965. They were tasked with building a camp at An Khe. Roger later was deployed with his division to the Ia Drang Valley, where he was involved in several skirmishes. He would also deliver supplies to various companies during combat as well. Roger helped medevac men from combat zones when necessary. He was involved in an operation in Binh Dinh, Vietnam, on December 18th, 1965. Roger served as an executive officer of his company during his time in Vietnam. He introduced a scouting technique that was referred to as surveillance in depth. He took part in Operation Crazy Horse and was eventually promoted to captain. Roger went on R and R in Thailand. He left Vietnam in August 1966. After leaving Vietnam, Roger returned to Fort Holabird, Maryland and received additional intelligence training. He attended the University of Maryland to study computer science.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7340d2fbbd56f5485a781b8e15fba4ad.mp4
76cb0f518e9858aa59e8817fe3026e7c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c0dc0ce31c26eb6ab68a3a4a02598e4.pdf
461e90df9df5f530fc3f80b4e5b13a2f
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge (Part 1 of 5)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 2:00:32
Interviewer: We are talking today with Roger Talmadge of Roanoke, Virginia and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, start us off with a little bit of background on yourself. And to begin with,
where and when were you born?
Veteran: I am Roger Stewart Talmadge. I am one of three sons of my dear mother and father. I
was born in Glen Ridge, New Jersey on the 16th of October, 1937.
Interviewer: Okay. And then, did you grow up in New Jersey? Or did you move around?
Veteran: Well, I was raised by Mary Wilson and I found out years later that she was a woman of
color. I never knew the difference. Anyway, she loved my brother and myself and I grew up to
about four and a half years. And then, of course, the war had started and my father was
transferred. He was a salesman and he sold materials for making uniforms so he was—when I
was about four, four and a half—we moved to Dallas, Texas. And we lived there a year. And
then after a year, about ’43 or early ’44, we moved to St. Louis, Missouri where I grew up, until I
joined the military.
Interviewer: Okay. And how much schooling did you get initially?
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Veteran: When I first got in the Navy on the 23rd of October,1954 I had 10 years. And then I
went to—I got in the Navy Reserve and became an aviation electronic technician. And when I
went to boot camp, it was a special training unit because in the Korean War when the Navy hit
the beach on that invasion of North Vietnam, the LSTs were sunk by artillery and so the blue
jackets with Navy personnel would dismount the ship and pick up an M1 Garand that no one was
using on the beach—beach that the Marines had landed—and try to engage to join in the battle.
And the gunny would say, “Over the hill.” And the big guy would stand up and get hit and of
course I had to haul them away. So, in my Navy boot camp, I learned Marine infantry tactics and
other kinds of things that Marines do. (00:02:28)
Interviewer: Okay. When you were telling that story, you were referencing invasion of
North Vietnam. Did you mean North Korea at that point?
Veteran: North Korea. Thank you. North Korea.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Not Vietnam, North Korea.
Interviewer: Now, to back up a little bit. So, you basically—you went through 10th grade
and then you enlisted in the Navy? Okay. And what motivated that?
Veteran: Well, my brother got in and he was a college graduate from I guess MIT or some place
like that. And so, he was flying some kind of a circuit. He called it a weatherology kind of thing
from the United States across the Ozarks and back again on a regular tour. And I found out later
on he was also…they were hunting submarines. My brother 2 years older than me also got in the
Navy. But he got in both—that was active duty. And my brother Larry got in the Navy also. And
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but—he got out immediately because they found out he had epilepsy and so he got out. So, I got
in the Navy Reserve, trying to see what I could do and still finish my high school training.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you enlist in the Naval Reserve…Now this is 1954, so you
were 17 years old at that time?
Veteran: I was—my 16th birthday, it was a week after my 16th birthday that I joined the Navy
Reserve.
Interviewer: Okay. I think you had told me you were born…Let’s see, in ’37? And…
Veteran: This is ’54.
Interviewer: You’d be 17 years, I guess. I don’t think they would take you at 16. They
would take you at 17. (00:04:09)
Veteran: That’s good point.
Interviewer: Yeah. That’s the math. That’s also the math but okay.
Veteran: It is also an error. And my parents had to sign me in, because I was 16.
Interviewer: Okay. Well, they would have to sign you in if you were 17 too.
Veteran: They would too but I was 16.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Alright, so anyway—so you have gone and you joined in and so
once you have signed up, now what did they do with you? Where do you get your initial
training—your basic training?
Veteran: I went up to Wold-Chamberlain Naval Air Station up there in Minneapolis and I got my
basic training, my boot camp training, there. And then, I returned back to my…it was an attack
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fighter squadron at Naval Air Station Lambert Field. And stayed there until the…until…I guess
it was June of ’56, 1956. And I went back up to Wold-Chamberlain and got my electronics
training. I also had a 60-man drill team that we took around the state of Minnesota for display or
whatever. Whatever they wanted for when they wanted a military unit. And the only reason they
did that is because of my Marine drill training—drill master training.
Interviewer: Okay. So, and that was what you had gotten at the original boot camp when
you were started training?
Veteran: Yeah, I learned that in the original boot camp. When I came back, they recognized me
from my former time and so they—the 60-man team—there I promised them girls and drinks.
And every place we went, they met girls and had drinks. (00:06:03)
Interviewer: Yeah, there they were. Alright, just to clarify here: you joined the Naval
Reserve so does that mean that you’re…Is that the weekend warrior thing initially?
Veteran: It’s a weekend warrior. I went to training once a month at Naval Air Station at Lambert
Airfield.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then once a year, 2 weeks out of the year, I would live there and continue the
training. I worked on F9F attack fighters, aircraft. They folded up their wings at night. And also,
worked on P2V Neptunes, which was a Hunter-Killer multi engine turbo jet.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Aircraft.
Interviewer: Now, were you being given specialized training for that?
�5
Veteran: Yes, absolutely. I was in electronics. I was a certified electronics technician. I worked
on navigation equipment.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did they give you that training in St. Louis or did they send you
other places for that?
Veteran: I got the initial—the basic—training at Wold-Chamberlain.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then the experience where I had to practice it in Lambert Airfield.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you got to the technical training up in Minnesota too along with the
drill training and the rest of it?
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now then, how long do you stay with—in St. Louis?
Veteran: Well, I stayed with the Navy Reserve and also, I got involved with recruiting. I went to
the Armed Forces recruiting station, whatever they called them in those days, and so I could get
in high school where they couldn’t because I was a high schooler. And so, I got in all the high
schools in the Webster Groves area, which is one of the suburbs of St. Louis. And beyond,
surrounding that area. And so, I could—when they had some kind of event, I could hand out
pamphlets for the Army, the Marine Corps, the Navy, and Air Force. So, and that’s how I got to
know the Army recruiter. And the Army recruiter said, “You know, we read your scores. When
you got in the Navy, when you joined on the 23rd of October, ’54. [so he really was 17—chalk up
one for the interviewer] You got high scores on that. Why don’t you take our little test and see
what you think.” (00:08:28)
�6
Veteran: So, I went and when it came out, they said, “We could send you directly to officer
candidate school right now.” And I thought to myself: I don’t know anything. You got to know
something to…You know, I had made petty officer which was moving up into the—that kind of
environment. But I just had to be honest with him. So, I…They said, “Well, how about some
other job?” And I didn’t know anything about infantry or any of that stuff. But they said, “How
about the intelligence service?” So, I did a little bit of homework on it and I said, “I will sign up
for that.” I didn’t know what I signed up for. But they did ship me to Germany. I went to basic
training. And when I went to basic training for the Army, it was in the engineers’ school in
Missouri. And again, the first—when you get there—you have a couple of days and you get sort
of organized. And then, they know that they have counted the number of people and they’ll put
you in—they’ll assign you to a rifle or rifle company of some training battalion. And you go
through 3 months of training. Well, when we—after a weekend—we showed up on a Monday
morning at our training site. And they put us in formation and they pulled 6 of us out of the
formation. And they had us line up next to each other. And we are looking at each other and said,
“Oh boy, we’re in trouble. Maybe they are going to put us on a truck and take us out a ways from
off the post.” And what they said, the sergeant said, “Gentlemen, these 6 men are your leaders.
You might not know that but I—there is one difference between you and them. Anybody want to
know why?” Somebody raised their hand, “No, sir.” “No, you call me sergeant. I can see my face
in their boots.” See, the Marines taught me that. (00:10:38)
Veteran: So, my boots were spit-shined like the rest of the guys. And I was one of the squad
leaders in a rifle platoon. There was about 3 platoons there. But also, I have a knack for
mimicking folks. In other words, I could—and that really helped me in that and learning foreign
languages later. What I did—my platoon training sergeant, he was a sergeant…I guess Sergeant
�7
First Class. And he was a boxer. He could have been professional for all I know but he wasn’t.
But he was a boxer and he represented the United States Army in some really interesting things
in boxing. And he got hit right here and it messed up his box—his voice box. And so, he had to
take a breath like this when he’d tell us what to do. And so, I got mimicking that. My
commanding officer was born and raised in New Jersey and he came behind the formation with
the platoon sergeant and he said, “What do we do? Court martial him or shoot him?” So, I just
ran into the formation, pretended like I didn’t move. But I had them—that’s the only—that
platoon was standing tall. Nobody else was, you know, goosing each other and messing around.
But I got after them. But anyway, that was kind of fun to…I didn’t realize that that would come
in handy later on. When we left the cantonment area, they pulled me outside the company, and
that’s 120 men, and they had me sing Marine in cadence songs. But some of them were
inappropriate for the cantonment area. So, we did that. (00:12:25)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, this is Fort Leonard Wood that you were at?
Veteran: Fort Leonard Wood.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, because you mentioned Missouri but I just for the record here I
wanted to make sure we had that on there. Because that’s where the engineer school is.
Okay. And then about how long did that basic training go on?
Veteran: 3 months.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and then once they finished that, did they give you intelligence
training? Or what happens next?
Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, I left that place I think it was June of…It must have been June of ’57. And
I progressed to Fort Howard Park, which is located just outside of Baltimore. And so, I was there
�8
another 3 months. And what they did, they covered the major military occupational specialties
for—that you would have as an enlisted man, just to sort of get sort of an introduction. So, I went
through that. And then, they said, “Okay, you’re going to be an order of battle specialist.” I went
through there and when I was talking to the sergeant trying to figure out what could I do in some
of those fields. I didn’t want to get hung up in technology because that is limiting. So, he said,
“Well, our managers are order of battle specialists. They organize. They look at things and they
organize things and all these skillsets come to work in those areas, depending on how it is
organized.” So, I signed up for that. And he promised me, he said, ‘Well, when you get your next
assignment, you go to your senior intelligence officer and have him give you a brief of the area
that he’s concerned about.” You know, I would probably get assigned to something and the
senior officer could give me that briefing. So, I said, “Well, is that a promise?” He said,
“Absolutely.” He didn’t know any—I didn’t know that that was one of those things. (00:14:28)
Veteran: So, I got aboard a ship and went across the Atlantic Ocean on the ship and they dropped
me off in Hamburg. And that was in June, the end of June, 1957. And I was transported there to
Oberursel, which is just about 11 kilometers outside of Frankfurt and Mainz.
Interviewer: Okay. And once you get there, now what happens to you? How are you
received?
Veteran: Well, I was processed in and they noted my specialty. And they gave me some
equipment, not much. And because when I was assigned to a unit, I would get whatever field
things that you need. So, I was getting oriented. So, I go downtown and I didn’t speak any
German. So, I just go downtown and go to the restaurants and I didn’t know what I was getting, I
just ordered food. And some of it I liked and some of it I had no idea what I was eating. But that
didn’t last for very long. And then they did assign me to the 7th United States Army with the
�9
525th MI [Military Intelligence] Battalion. And when I got in with them, that was further
orientation. And I went downtown with whoever the GIs were there. And trying to expose
myself to Germany. And so that lasted for a couple months. And eventually, I finally got—it
was—I was assigned to the 207th, the 207th MI Detachment. I was in error before. And there I got
all my frontline stuff. You know, whenever you have to maneuver, you have frontline stuff you
have to wear. I got my weapon. I don’t even know what it was. I guess it was an M-14. I used—
qualified with the M-1. I could hit a target at 1100 yards away. (00:16:54)
Veteran: But that is just a once in a lifetime thing. You don’t do—I’ll never do that again. But
they did train us at Fort Leonard Wood to do that. So then, I got to know some German—I lived
in a German safe house. And what it is, it’s a known facility but it is just away from everything.
And it used to be the servant quarters to some German who was a wealthy, wealthy land owner
or something. And the house was a mansion and we were in this small guest…guest whatever
you call it. Workers that cooked and took care of the property. To me, that was a mansion. It was
lovely. We had German ladies that would cook for us and that is where I learned different kinds
of foods. And we had some—our only vehicles were Army jeeps. We didn’t have any civilian—
any civilian, all military. (00:18:00)
Veteran: And so there, I went out along the Czech western border. And my first encounter was
probably July or August. I was on the Czech border and two German border police came up to
me and they said, “You come with me.” And so, they were saying, I guess, come with me or
something. I don’t know. But they—these guys were kind of bigger than me. I was going with
them anywhere. And so, they got me behind a big tree and then they said, “Now, show all.” And
they pointed to a tower and there is 3 towers: there is one right in front of me and 2 here. And
they had a 14.7-millimeter anti-aircraft gun that they were watching me. They were tracking me
�10
and they told me this in German. I translated that in English. I was in trouble. I didn’t know what
they said but they said that I should not move this way but move this way and away. And I did
do that. But I was within 100 yards of their border. And so, they wanted to get me away.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, why were you there? What had you been sent to do?
Veteran: Well, I was being oriented on my job. My job was to organize things but you had to be
familiar with what you’re dealing with. And there, I was able to—and I can draw it out to you, I
remember it still—the layout of the several—there’s 5 walls of barbed wire and it goes way high.
And then they have some fields that have land mines and then they have other kinds of things
that…And then they have the towers and the lights and all that other stuff. And one tower can
see two towers, the old Roman way of defense. And so, they had the place well-covered. They
also had some gates once in a while. And they’d come across and laugh at us and go back during
the winter months when it was skiing and they would close the gates up. I wasn’t there for that
but at least I was introduced to what it looked like all the way from west Germ—the complete
border from west Germany. And our section, that was sort of the southern portion of it where we
had our—we had people monitoring what is going there all around the clock. (00:20:23)
Interviewer: Yeah. So—
Veteran: My headquarters were back here and those little offices were all along the German
villages. What I did when I was in my detachment house, I’d go out with the German citizens
and these fellows were sons of some wealthy people. Like a great big furniture clearing house,
they built furniture, beautiful stuff, and then they would put it in a retail environment. Well, they
would take me downtown with me. And this was in Stuttgart. And April, 1944, the British and
the American bombers had leveled the city except for the old city. We always kept the old city so
�11
we could re-orient ourselves when they flew in there. And so, and that was the transportation—
north, south, east, west, crossing. So, they just tore out and bombed all of that stuff away. When I
got there in June and—well, July or whenever it was, August—they had already demonstrated
something and they killed some of our GIs. Put their heads in the fountain. So, when I went
downtown with these guys, and I would go into the Old Stadt and go into cities, restaurants or
places where you get drinks, the people from the opera house used to come in and perform. I
really heard some wonderful music and I was used to that from home. And so, now I got to see it
and hear it. And so, I was really thrilled with that. But they told these guys that I was deaf and
dumb so I said nothing. (00:22:11)
Veteran: But I learned a lot of language. And I would ask them about it later. And we got in a—
the police called us one night. We were driving along and that general area, I guess it was
Nuremberg this time. We were driving in the general area and I started making the sound of the
German police when they are after you, the doo da sound. And it sounded realistic and a police
car come up along side us and fined them 50 marks. He thought it was funny. I didn’t think it
was funny. It scared the willies out of me. But anyway, so I picked up a lot of words. In the
meantime, I worked on some crypto stuff. I had one of the old—it was a German cipher system.
And so, they had me work on that and do a little administration here, odds and ends, and they
also had me be the clerk, the company clerk. And you have to type everything first time correctly
and I made a lot of mistakes. A lot of papers I was throwing over my shoulder. Anyway, one
time when I was there, a Lieutenant Colonel Marratti shows up and he is the commanding officer
of the 525th MI Battalion. And he was out of Stuttgart and I was in Nuremberg so I got them
mixed up when I was talking about that other earlier about Stuttgart. But anyway, he asked me is
there any needs I have? Yeah, Nuremberg. And I asked him, I said, “Really, this job here is—I
�12
am really having a hard time with it but I am trying my very best, sir. Very best. I do have a
need: one of my recruiters promised me that I should go to the senior intelligence officer in my
local command and get a brief on what he is confronted by and that way I could organize for my
detachment commander. I could organize this great big roll up map to reflect what he is facing
and then change it because we got reports every day. And very seldom did it change anything on
the other side but once in a while, they caught something moving and that—then I had to
interpret what that meant. If they went this way, sideways, that was one thing but if they are
coming towards you, that is different.” (00:24:38)
Veteran: So, the Colonel laughed. He said, “Okay. I’ll get back to you on that one.” So, about 3
weeks or 4 weeks, I don’t know what it was, I forgot about it. My detachment commander, who
was a major, called me in the office and he said, “Sir,”—I was a private—he said, “Young man,
Colonel Marratti has set you up with a briefing with the senior intelligence officer for the
command. It just so happens to be the G2 of the 7th United States Army in Stuttgart. You’ll take
a train there and stay over-night and get briefed by him, take a train and come back and tell me
what he tells you.” Oh man. So, I made sure my uniform—I wore the old Ike jacket and all that
stuff—made sure it was—I had it tailor-made so I looked pretty sharp. I didn’t weigh anything so
it didn’t matter. So, I went in, got settled in my little barracks. And then the next morning I went
over there at 9 and reported in to the secretary. And so, the secretary, or whatever the sergeant
there, took me into the office and sat me down in the briefing room. And the briefing room could
hold about 30 people and I was the only guy in there. And he sat me right in the middle up front
and here is this huge board with this map on it and—of Germany. And so, I just sat there. And
this tall guy comes in: he is a full colonel. (00:26:09)
�13
Veteran: And he said, “Son, I have come to brief you. Your sergeant said that you—I am going
to give you that briefing.” And I didn’t know what to do. He says, “Now, you just sit right here.”
And so, he started at one end and went to the other end and he explained to me that if you have
something that’s armored, it is painted yellow. If it’s tanks, it is something else. If it’s engineers,
it is something else. Infantry, you got several types of it and it is blue. And if it’s airborne it has
got one symbol and if it is mechanized it’s got another symbol. If it is just for soldiers, it is
another symbol. And they have certain rank—each one is different strength and so forth. And
depending on what is happening, they will get them in combinations of groups, a task force. So,
they will have a lot of stuff. They will even have artillery and some of it is mobile. You know, it
is mobile artillery. And so, he went all through that stuff and that is red. He asked, “Any
questions?” So, I asked a bunch of questions. And I made notes. I mean, I was making notes, I
had my notebook and I was going and all this stuff my mind was trying to figure out how to
make—how to take what he did and duplicate that for the major, Major Brown at the
detachment. So, I got finished with that and he said, “Well son, I want you to know something.”
I said, “What is that, sir?” The lowest rank I’ve ever briefed this briefing is a 2-star major
general. I hope you enjoyed it. And if you have any questions, son, you call me.” Well, I left. I
saluted and left. So, it took me a while but I got it. And his office had one of these jail gates in it,
you know? Steel bars. And his map was classified because of that knowledge. It would confirm
to some outsider that we knew more than what they knew that we knew.
Interviewer: Right. (00:28:13)
Veteran: So, I looked at that monster, I said, “Well sir, I think I am going to need some time in
here.” “Fine.” So, what I did is I color coded the whole—everything was black and white—I
color coded the whole thing and you could tell where the armored was located and if they
�14
moved, that is very sensitive stuff. If the artillery moves behind them, that’s really big stuff. I
mean, not only does that cause interest in our battalion, which is intelligence, but also for our
division, our corps, and our 7th United States Army. And I wanted him to know whatever, I could
figure it out. So anyway, we color coded all of that and you could look at it and you could see
where that stuff was and when it moved, he was able to do things to it and they could see when
something was happening. So, when the Berlin Wall came up on the 13th of August in 1963,
50,000 tanks moved closer to the border. So, that was kind of neat. I was in Italy at the time. I
had to come back quickly for that. But anyway—
Interviewer: I think that would have been ’61?
Veteran: Was it ’61?
Interviewer: Berlin Wall, yeah.
Veteran: ’61…
Interviewer: Yeah, Cuban Missile Crisis is 1962.
Veteran: 1961—
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: 13th, ’61. You’re right. I am glad you caught that.
Interviewer: I am a historian.
Veteran: Good, because you—see, I still was there.
Interviewer: Right.
�15
Veteran: I stayed there. I was there in country until ’62 so not ’63. Okay, so that is when the wall
went up. And so, that was significant. After putting up the wall, they moved themselves to—it
was a show of force. And that was one of the things I had to learn: what some of these
formations mean. I didn’t know that part. But I knew that it meant it’s a show of danger. That’s
all I could figure out. So… (00:30:13)
Interviewer: Alright. Now see, you kind of laid out for us what it meant to be an order of
battle specialist. You’re identifying where all the enemy forces are and keeping track of
them and so forth. And so, you have done that by creating the map and this kind of thing.
What other kinds of jobs did you have while you were in Germany? When you did that
part—
Veteran: Okay, so that part I was very diligent with that and I spent a lot of time downtown on
the weekends. I bought the commanding officers old 1949 Ford and did whatever to it to, not
spruce it up, but to make sure it was running right. And then I would look at the little money I
had—I didn’t have a lot of money, I was still a private. They lost my prior service records or
didn’t, whatever, and that money came in later. And but anyway, so I looked at the little money I
had and the exchange rate to German marks was good then, very fine, so I would figure out what
that meant and then I’d go out. I’d go north for a while and stop, go to some village and I’d go to
the local Stube, which is a restaurant, and I’d look for a bunch of old guys and I would sit down
with them. And I’d tell them, “Ich bin Amerikaner. Ich will Deutsch lernen.” That’s all. That’s
all I told them. I said, “I am an American and I want to learn German.” And so, they would tell
me some off the wall stories and I would get but part of it and but they are all laughing and
having a good time. And they enjoyed it: a young man that wants to have a heart for Germany. It
�16
goes back to this guy with a throat thing, figure out where he lives. I didn’t know that I was
doing that but I was doing that. (00:32:14)
Veteran: And so, then I would go east and then I would go south and different places. And I still
went to these guys that I got in trouble with when the Germans come over in Nuremberg. So, I
continue that. I work with this crypto thing and whenever it failed, I figured some kind of
algorithm. I didn’t know it was an algorithm but I figured some mathematical way to fix it. I’d be
deep into a message, deciphering it, and the thing would, I don’t know, maybe I hiccupped or
burped or something. And so, I figured a way to catch back up where it messed up and then go
form there. I mean, that was a sequential thing but nonetheless. And I was able to do that quickly
because the machine was a quick machine to catch up. So, I did that for a while and then at some
point, the detachment commander would call 2 of us. There was a guy that had a really
intelligent fellow. And he came from North Carolina. And his name was Bill. And so, Bill and I
were called in the office to the detachment commander, Major Brown. He said, “They’re looking
for 80 men to get some special training and we would like you to apply for it. We will support
you. And you might not get it but, you know, there is a lot of people that will be applying for it.
They’re going after people in Europe because they are already here. They have some kind of a—
and also, they want to know if you’re teachable.” And I didn’t know he was looking for
something specific and he couldn’t tell me. Teachable? Okay. So, here’s this little detachment so
he and I put in our stuff. And he has a nice resume, did well in college, all the right kinds of
things, met all the right kind of people. His uncle was the commanding general of 7th U.S. Corps.
he is a—I mean, he was a lieutenant general. I even went down to see him, just for the heck of it.
(00:34:22)
�17
Veteran: So, anyway, so alright. So, we put this stuff in and I am guessing 100-150 people put
their names in it. And the 80 were selected and Bill and I were—we were both PFCs at the
time—we got promoted. And so, they—we went down there. And these other guys are sergeants,
lieutenants, and captains, and it stopped at captains. There is a reason for that. And alright, so we
got down there and then they selected the language. I don’t know what Bill got but I got Polish
and that is a real blessing. Remember, I was the most uneducated one of the bunch and I needed
everything that would help me. Polish is the only Slavic language that is written in Latin letters. I
didn’t know that. But it really helped. And as the letters are laid out, that is exactly how you
pronounce it. So, that was—so, pronouncing it was also good. Now, I had a couple of really good
teachers that pushed us hard and such like that. So, I learned Polish and I got—I think I got a B+
or something in that course. I had to do a couple of things and that was reading, writing, and also
to be able to use my skills in interrogations. You may have to do that too. Now, I was the
youngest guy in the class and there is a lieutenant, at least a couple lieutenants, that thought I was
a problem because I was different than anybody else. I wasn’t quite strack, as you call it, and
refined was the other word. And so, they would get after me for all kinds of silly things. I also
had a terrible allergy and so in bright lights like this, I had to wear sunglasses in my classroom
and they—little things like that really upset them. But nonetheless, got through that course and
did fine and survived them. And then, then we took a maybe a couple days break and then
switched to go into German. So, the people that were taking Slavic language the first time were,
first half of the course—6 months , would take German. The others—they switched the others
around so you—so the Slavic language folks had always a new bunch every 6 months.
(00:36:54)
�18
Veteran: So, we got into class and 2 of our classes were set aside. And you walked in the
classroom and I had 12 or 13 or 14 other fellows in there. And this other class had the same thing
and I don’t know what else happened. Or maybe less, maybe we had 10 in those. Small class.
And so, I thought oh well, hmmm…So, he came up and he said, “I am Mr. Walters. I got in the
service in…” whatever it was; 1940 or something like that. And he learned English. He could
speak all kinds of dialect whether in Chicago, St. Louis, New York, California, doesn’t matter.
And he demonstrated that for us a little bit. Now, I was supposed to land on the shores of New
Jersey in 1944 but then we had some visitors that showed up at Normandy so I was changed to
that. So, I was fighting the American and British and anybody else forces on their borders. And
of course, I was in Germany for a long time. He was in—we only had one German fighting us
because everyone else was still fighting the Russians. (00:38:13)
Veteran: That’s what they told me. Everybody I met said, “Oh, I was fighting the Russians. I was
always on the Eastern Front of…Well, hmmm.” So, he was the only—so, what he would do: he
would listen to the battalions as they are talking to the companies on their radio and he’d mimic
them. Oh, I can relate to that. And then, he sent bales of hay to the artillery units and the artillery
ammunition to a transportation unit. And then the war ended and I don’t know where they picked
them up but they hired him to be our teacher. And then he went on to say, “*speaking German*”
[what he says translates to “From now on we only speak German. No more English.] So
basically, he shut us off and we didn’t speak English in the class ever again. But he took
advantage of that to take us out on the town to different things to introduce us to instead of me
going there and saying, “Ich mag essen,” I’d like to eat and sometimes it was good and
sometimes it was bad. I learned the good stuff was schnitzel and the other stuff you don’t eat
because it is something else. But he helped us with that. And let’s see…Nothing in particular.
�19
Interviewer: Did he do German dialect at all or different parts of Germany?
Veteran: Well, what happened—what really helped me is I speak a kind of a German, it’s not the
Hoch Deutsch, I can’t do that. But basically, I would speak in Dusseldorf. When I was able to
pick up Schwabisch, and it’s a difficult language. It is close to Stuttgart. And I used to go to the
restaurants. And I could pick up their dialect. I just sensed it. (00:40:06)
Veteran: And then I go to Bavaria and they speak completely different. Bavaria is completely
different. And for instance, you’re walking down a street and they say, “Ris Gott,” which means,
“Greet God” you know and you do this. And no, it’s just a hi, hello. And but nobody else says
that. And they had these little colloquialisms. And I had a whole book of them that I had learned.
The fact is, I got so good at it I couldn’t even translate it. I just used it. And so, that was kind of
interesting. But no, the German—it came along well. And I had at least 4 or 5 dialects I could
use. Now, if I were to ever use—I was told that by a captain—that if something happens…In
other words, we go to war? You’re going to be assigned to the Pripet Marshes. And the Pripet
Marshes is the marshes of 5 rivers. You know where that is located?
Interviewer: Yeah. But that’s a good ways east of where you were.
Veteran: Well, the thing is that’s where the irregular forces would gather.
Interviewer: Mhmm, in World War 2 yeah. The partisans against the Germans were there.
Veteran: That’s correct. And that connectivity was still there. And so, what they would do with
us: they’d drop us off some evening, and then we had all our communications that we could use
to bring in supplies or whatever else, or anything that we could pick up intelligence-wise would
help the effort to interdict the long lines of supply coming from Russia into the east. I mean, into
the west. And I was told—and the Russian tactics were—that once they run out of something,
�20
they forage for it. Fuel, basic things. They couldn’t get parts for their vehicles but they could
certainly get other things. So, we’d interrupt that as much as we could. (00:42:14)
Veteran: There was no pick-up plan though. It was a one-way ticket. That was it. Didn’t have
any German. Didn’t have any English—anything with me. I have no markings whatsoever. And
that was the other reason for all of us—no tattoos that they could relate to anything. And so, my
second story and last story was I was a German citizen in a foreign country. The captain told me
that. I said, “How will I get—how do you get there?” I am over there now, in Bavaria. “How in
the world do I get there? You know, the road is probably going to be blocked. The trains are
going to be blocked. You can’t go by train. There is no boats I know you can get into Poland.”
So, he said, “Well, we are going to drop you off airborne.” I said, “But I am not airborne
qualified, Captain.” He said, “Son, I understand, but you will be when you land.” And that was
when they introduced—that’s the only time I heard of it. Now, supposedly that assignment
continued for a number of years afterwards and then it dissipated because the equipment that we
now have, we can pick up all that movement activity or whatever else and try to interdict it way
before it becomes a threat. So, that—I stayed that way and then I moved after my training—I
went back to the 513th MI group and I worked in the debriefing interrogation section. And people
would come across on the borders, any of them, East Germany to West, Hungary or
Czechoslovakia primarily. And I could slur my Polish and talk to the ones from Czechoslovakia.
It was close. I couldn’t write it. And so, I developed reports and that was turned into
Bundesnachrichtendienst, that was the—that’s right, German intelligence service. And what they
would run is background checks and then the ones that were kind of interest, they would come
pick up. And that was at our facility. (00:44:27)
�21
Veteran: The other ones were filtered out to where they were integrated into the German society
to get them jobs and places to sleep or you know, whatever. And become German citizens. On
one occasion, I once in a while would fly out of Wiesbaden and I’d fly into Berlin into…I forget
the name of the airfield.
Interviewer: Is it Tempelhof?
Veteran: Yes. Thank you. And we’d fly by those buildings. We flew over—they flew over the
same buildings when carrying coal in ’49, ’48, ’50 and so forth at Tempelhof. And I picked up
some people and then flew back in a turbo top U.S. Air Force bird. Got him in to—debriefed
him. And found out he was a major general in the East German Air Force. He was the assistant
chief of staff for them. And he got out by himself by coming through Berlin. Came by the SBahn. And so, we noted all of that because we needed to know how to go the other way. So,
they—the Germans were really interested in him. And so, we turned him over to them and it took
about 6 weeks and we got his family out with the children, no losses, out of Potsdam. And they
haven’t figured out today how that happened. That was before the wall came up. So, alright, so
about 5 or 6 months pass. And I really got to know this guy. He helped my German a little bit. I
picked up what he—how they operate in East Germany. And so anyway, I was—I don’t know
where I was. I was at some kind of a social gathering, dance or something, with the unit. And 2
military policemen came in and they come up to me and said, “We have a visitor at the gate and
he wants to speak to Roger and you’re the only Roger we know.” (00:46:33)
Veteran: “Okay, fine.” So, I excused myself and went out to the gate and here’s this guy and they
said, “Oh, you know him?” “Yes, I know him.” He was driving a tractor for an 18-wheeled
vehicle but he left a trailer downtown, wherever that was. And so, we—I got him on post and we
sat down, had coffee, and visited. And he told me, “I can’t tell you but I got a new name. you can
�22
guess what I am.” He was in the Dusseldorf area. He had a new name, he was a truck driver, his
family was up there. They are all in school and doing well. Of course, they speak the language.
That’s not a problem. And he said, “I used to be in charge in the East German Air Force of all
this and now I just drive an 18-wheeled truck anywhere they want me to drive it. I get paid a
whole lot more and I am free.” So, he just wanted to thank me. Isn’t that neat?
Interviewer: Wow. Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, that’s neat.
Interviewer: That’s pretty impressive.
Veteran: That is neat. So then, from there, I left that assignment and I worked for—I still was
associated with the 513th. But I can’t go in any detail about it. It was a forerunner to…It was an
off-shoot of the OSS. And so, we—I got into human intelligence side of the house. And I got
involved with connectivity with just about anybody in Europe, including that side. But…and I
stayed in that position from 1960-62. And it was during that time, one of my supervisors got
ahold of me and said—and I was going to school at night. I had already got a half a—I got two
years of half a degree. Associate degree from the University of Maryland. (00:48:31)
Veteran: And so, he said, “You ought to go to Officer Candidate School. And so—but you have
to go through—we have to talk to you and discuss things and vet you and just check you out
before they even recommend you for that kind of thing. So, why don’t you—to get practice at
being interviewed and that kind of thing—why don’t you go through this effort.” So, I signed up
to become a direct commission. And I did. I went through that stuff and they would tell me to
read the newspaper, read particularly the sports section and know the players by name and find
some way to make them laugh. Hmm…Well, and I was just a brand-new sergeant. What do I—I
�23
didn’t know anything; I was about 25 years old at that point in time. And so, I started the process
and I got through one board and that turned out nicely. And I did all those things. So, I really
studied. I was encouraged and I kept doing—reading more and looking at things. I am trying to
find out what I was slow on in the first round and dig more, get more of that stuff. Tell some
personal experience that were hilarious and possibly shouldn’t be mentioned, meaning it wasn’t
classified, it was compromising. (00:50:06)
Veteran: So, they liked that. And I continued on. And then, I got to a point where they said,
“Okay, now we got to…You seem to be a good candidate. So, we are going to start—we are
going to put you through the physical stuff. Check you out physically and whatever else we need
to do.” So, I went through that. And the only thing I got hung up on was my allergies. They were
so…I used the word that says they are all the time and a doctor from Heidelberg wrote back and
said, “Does he want a direct commission or not? Really. Tell him to write seasonal hay fever.”
And I did. And that actually—when I started taking care—they told me how to take care of
myself, it became seasonal hay fever. I just was not taking care of myself. So, anyway, I got that
direct commission in June of 1962. And then, so I was transferred out of this assignment I had in
downtown…Downtown Frankfurt. Frankfurt is close, or like I say, 11 kilometers apart. And
while I was in there, my—it was my first wife and myself, we created a touring…No, it wasn’t.
No, we didn’t. It wasn’t then; that comes later. But anyway, I left that assignment and I came
back to the original place that I came in June of ’57. And they made me a deputy executive
officer and they are getting ready for inspector general. Now, you know and I know that I have
been through a lot of stuff on how to get ready for inspections and how to look like something.
And of course, your room has to be right and everything in your locker has to be orderly and it’s
a certain place and all that. So, I went in there and tore the place up and got everybody mad at
�24
me. And the captain was West Point. And I don’t know what in the world—I don’t know what
his executive officer was. He didn’t know what to—he did not know what to think of that. And I
told him, “Sir, if you’re not blunt, they’re not going to do anything. They’ll flunk out. If I were
the inspector general, I’d have given you an F. That’s what I would have done.” And that’s what
I would have done. Anyway, so he—okay, alright—he listened to that. And I thought a West
Point officer was a little bit different than that but I found out you have West Point officers and
other officers and the other officers usually know how to relate to you but the West Point officers
are a little distant. And in some cases, rightfully so. (00:52:52)
Veteran: They need to be. They’re officers. But anyway, they need to communicate too. But
anyway, so then we had an inspection one time and the outfit was out there. He wanted me to
walk behind him, next to him but behind him, and inspect the troops and then he would critique
me and the first sergeant on what they might want to do. and quite frankly, they looked really
sharp, except this little guy about this tall, about 4 foot or so tall, was walking next to me dressed
in a captain’s uniform. So, we get finished with all of that. I was just—I was just—I was really
upset but I was really moved by that but I just had to really bite my tongue. So, we get in the
building and I chewed him out. “As a West Point officer, you just insulted everybody out there
and you’re not kidding anybody. You don’t dress your child up as an officer where they have—
you salute the uniform, not the person. And if you think they are saluting you because you are a
West Point officer, there is something wrong with this. And I hope I didn’t upset you.” He said,
“Oh no, that’s fine.” Well anyway, they looked sharp. They really looked sharp. The only thing
that—I said, “Don’t show up to a formation with him dressed like that ever again. He’s your son,
let him follow you in other ways.” (00:54:08)
�25
Veteran: So then, the other thing I did, which is kind of unique, before I left that command in
’62, September, I walked into the non-commissioned officers’ club with my hat on. Do you
know what that means? You buy the drinks. So, I put $200 on the counter. I said, “Yesterday it
was Roger. Today, it’s sir. Drinks are on me. When I walk out of here, I am Lieutenant
Talmadge and blow it out your butt otherwise.” And so, that’s how we took—they grew up with
me. These guys were teaching me stuff or getting mad at me because of whatever. And it’s
normal things. And so, that’s how I ended that tour of duty. I came back to the United States and
then into Fort Hood, into the 203rd MI detachment.
Interviewer: Okay. Just to back up a little bit. I mean, you mentioned sort of your human
intelligence assignment was one you can’t say a whole lot about. Did that involve actually
going into Eastern Europe? Or did you stay within West Germany and our side?
Veteran: I stayed on the west side. I didn’t cross over. I had plans…if I did, it was under wartime
conditions.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The only time I was compromised in 1960, one of my Polish instructors, a lady, had me
over for supper. And she kept…Oh, she kept asking me a lot of questions. She must have had a
tape recorder somewhere. But they got my photograph, they got everything. And so, I changed
jobs right after that. I mean, when I came into Oberammergau, I was nowhere. And then, when I
worked in downtown Frankfurt, I was also nowhere. And whatever I did was 1 time but I never
did it again. In fact, that’s how I was working on operation. And I wasn’t trained in this human
stuff. But I understood that you never did something twice. And I caught about 20 of our folks
who were…I was doing the sergeant major’s administration. All these master sergeants and all
�26
that stuff that were trained and really good in their languages, they were out there making
contacts and monitoring the guys that did kind of go over there. (00:56:37)
Veteran: But we didn’t go over there. Bottom line is they were using some of the same cars, the
same apartments or other buildings that other people were and built a network. I compromised
the whole thing so I turned it in. They shut that operation down. They were on us. They were on
us. They could tell who we were. So, I went some place I closed out, which I was a newbie. I
was given a .32 caliber pistol with 5 rounds in it. One chamber had to be empty for safety
purposes. I went to one place and cleaned the place out. And I left. I was wearing a kind of a
sporty jacket, tie, and all that stuff. And these 5 guys, these well-developed older gentlemen were
outside waiting for me. And I came by and they just…and I kept going. And another time—so I
thought that was close. Another time, I borrowed one of the cars that we got from some agency
here in the United States. And it was a Saab. an S-A-A-B, and it has a shifter system. I could
drive any foreign built, European car, but I hadn’t driven this. And I drove it out of the motor
pool and I had a hard time gearing down and then I….And I came to a stop sign and rolled
through it and I was trying to get it in gear and these two horsemen rode up, came up next to me
and knocked on the window and I rolled the window down. And they said, “You rolled through
the—” in German—no, in English, they told me: “You drove through that stop sign.” And I said,
“I am having trouble with this car. I haven’t driven it before.” In German. And then so—I got it
in gear and I jammed it in whatever—first gear I could get it in—and I said as I drove away, I
said, “You can just go use this 10 marks or whatever it is to go by coffee.” And I roared out of
the place. (00:58:52)
�27
Veteran: Now, he could have written my—they could have written my—they were laughing.
They could have written my license plate down. It would have been easy to find me. There was
really nothing to—that was an easy one. But anyway…So, that was sort of wound down that.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, this…So, now we have made it into ’62 and now you complete
that assignment. And now you’re going to move on to your next assignment in Fort Hood,
Texas.
Veteran: Which was at Fort Hood.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Let me tell you when I went to Hood.
Interviewer: Okay. So, we have gotten to the point in your story where you have now gone
back to the States, you go to Fort Hood, Texas. What are you doing there?
Veteran: I am a second lieutenant and this is my first official assignment as a second lieutenant
of the military intelligence. They didn’t have a branch insignia but they were going to have one
so I wore engineer brass. That was a cover. But it didn’t mean anything. And then they put me in
charge: I was a detachment commander and I had command status of prisoner of war,
interrogation of prisoners of war detachment. And my detachment was unique. They have
detachments on the east coast that are geared towards Europe, that part of the world, Africa. And
on the…in Texas, against Asia. Well, mine? I had one of my Russian speakers with me that I
served with. He was a master sergeant. (01:00:34)
Veteran: But it was really neat. So, I had him as my number two man. He was a really excellent
gentleman. Just a fine gentleman. Wonderful family. Now, when I was in Germany, I did get
�28
married. And from that marriage, we had 3 children. So, they were born…2 of them were born in
Europe and 1 was born in Fort Hood. But in the 203rd MI detachment, we had a regular
housekeeping training and the things that you do. And then, we would also gear up for field
exercises. And I participated in 2 rather complex field exercises that took place in South—North
and South—Carolina. And we would…One time, we went there and the aggressor forces was the
5th Mechanized Division. The second time we went there, it was, I guess, elements of the 101st
Airborne and some other mechanized division. I forget who it was. So, we had to prepare for
that. And so, that’s where we pulled our—pulled out our bag of tricks. And these folks I was
with, every one of them was either reserve officer, maybe regular Army, but I don’t think I had
West Pointers in that. And so then, my commander was Lieutenant Colonel Rose, a very find
gentleman. Thought through things very well. And so, he wanted to do things correctly. The
stuffy people were at Corps headquarters. (01:02:27)
Veteran: Now, the G2, which is the intelligence officer for 3rd United States Corps, he’s kind of a
stuffed shirt. And so really, you know what my background is. When I passed him, I’d salute
him; give him a nice high ball. And he wouldn’t return the salute so I turned him in. And I was
probably one of the only officers he’d return the salute. I could care less. I am not there to make
friends. And I didn’t realize it: that’s probably my downfall. But anyway, so getting ready
for…So, we were a strack unit, which means if bad things happen, the 18th Airborne Corps over
here in North Carolina, and the 3rd Corps in Fort Hood, Texas would gear up and get ready for it.
And of course, that comes up. When I was in the Fort Hood unit—when things kind of got messy
and the Cuban Crisis…But meantime, we went to this training. And so, what we did is I went out
there and we maneuvered. We landed in Columbia, South Carolina. We were the red forces. We
were the bad guys. And I didn’t pay attention to a whole lot of stuff. But I do know that some
�29
people in South Carolina didn’t like the bad guys. So, they sprayed our equipment with graffiti
and all kinds of odds and ends. You know? “Pigs go home” that kind of stuff. I don’t know.
(01:04:04)
Veteran: They did that. They did. And of course, the blue forces were the good guys and they
went out there with coffee and donuts and we didn’t get any coffee and donuts. But I
befriended…I befriended—one guy came down to bring us coffee and donuts. We went down to
the river and maybe took a shower down there because we had to shower in that unit. And so, he
would bring little treats that somebody baked. I think like that. He was a very nice gentleman.
And he was an comptroller there for the Kershaw County. And so, he got to know us and I don’t
know, I can’t remember his background military-wise but gosh—he was a Marine, that’s what.
And so, he said, “Is there anything I can do for you? I love coming down here and visiting with
you fellows and I appreciate what you are doing. This is a war game and I understand you have
to do the best you can and some of our local folks have taken advantage of that.” And so on. He
was trying to ask forgiveness for them on their part. Anyway, so he introduced—he took me one
evening to the meeting of the Kershaw County Marines, or Marines of Kershaw County…Post?
Something.
Interviewer: Right. Like a Marine Corps League or something like that?
Veteran: Yeah, a Marine Corps League. And so, we chatted for a while. And they said, “Yeah,
lieutenant, what can we do for you?” And so, I said, “I think we need some help.” So, what we
did…Didn’t know exactly the rules but we were supporting this operation with what we had
from Fort Hood. We had some…I forget the forces we had. But nonetheless, we had—with
permission of Lieutenant Colonel Rose—we had about 5 guys grow beards. (01:06:19)
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Veteran: And then we sent them to the Carolinas 2 months before we got there. And all they did
was just get to know people. And these were—these guys were seasoned soldiers. They knew
what they were doing. They had had some infantry background and that kind of stuff. Airborne.
And bottom line is got to know some very key people in South Carolina. And parts, only certain
parts, of North Carolina. And there is a reason for that. So, we showed up and we really didn’t
talk to them. Nobody ever saw us stick together. I was in my little unit and I was in my little MI
group unit and we did our work and we…housekeeping things and whatever. I’d go out and
interrogate. Sometimes we would capture somebody. And we’d interrogate them. So, we had that
kind of thing going on. There’s a unit that came into some place where they were close to us.
And so, I had my jeep, I had a PPSH, which is a 1941 Soviet machine gun, I had one of those
with me. And so, I captured a deuce and a half and all the equipment on board and 2 soldiers and
found out where the commander was. And he was down the road a piece in a restaurant with his
20 or 30 soldiers. Captured all of them. And he was mad. He was really—he said, “Don’t point
that thing at me.” And so, we wrote that all up and turned that in…
Interviewer: Alright so you… (01:08:16)
Veteran: And turned that information in. And we did that for whatever—a while it was. But that
was good training for our guys. And what happened with—one of the things I found out—so this
is where I needed to know this later on. There was an area, and you could mask it, it was large
and large area. And for some reason, from 2 o’clock on Thursday morning to maybe the next
day, 2 o’clock in the morning, that large field was going to—all of that electricity was going to
be turned off. Already been coordinated with the neighborhood. And there was no lines in that
area but there was electricity in that area. But they were open fields for farming. So, we
surrounded it with a bunch of tanks. Next day, here comes some brigade and they parachute in
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there with the general and we captured the general. And he pulled rank on us and we said, “Sir, I
wasn’t really—” I wasn’t with the capturing party but—“sir, with all due respect, get in this
damn jeep.” And so, we hauled him into the place and brought him to General Dunn, who was a
3-star general, 3rd Corps. And he said, “I am sorry, general, but you are my prisoner.” And so,
that was one of those—I didn’t realize. I knew they would need to make contact but I didn’t
know what it was. In the meantime, these folks from the Kershaw—the Marine Corps League
from Kershaw County made me an honorary member. And they would take their vehicles out
and then they’d come back and report order of battle. And they’d read the—they knew how to
read the numbers on the jeeps and the tanks and the…whatever they had. And so, they would
report where they were located and I just reported that up directly as much as I could. (01:10:17)
Veteran: And so, we sent bombing raids over them to get their supply points. Or we readjusted
ourselves because a whole bunch of people from over here looked like they were going to do
something mean soon. So, we had to either beef it up or leave. So, we did that and on one
occasion, when we were doing this, the second time we returned, we got worse. I mean, we
really did some bad things. So, we did—had the same intelligence, activities, and such like that.
But on the second round, we got them really engaged in a lot of…they almost drained the
military basin in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And they had all the troops down where we were.
And so, we sent a contingent of about 15 guys and they captured the flag off the City Hall of
Fayetteville and brought it back down to us. And the 3-star general of the 18th airborne corps was
livid. And so then, we had a formation and whenever it was, the judges…what is it? The umpires
around them keep things safe so they don’t do something stupid. But also, they—different
tactics. And so, at that time, our units were the 1st and 2nd armored division. This was armor
against armor. So, it is a little bit different but nonetheless they said that we won the second
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round, the second time we were out. So, that means that protocol says the commanding general
of the unit, or his representative, will bring the sword out to the commanding general of the other
unit. So, General Dunn showed up with his staff and somebody showed, up but the 4-star general
didn’t show up, on Fort Bragg. And so, we got that sabre. And of course, you know, General
Dunn had a little party over that. So, that was kind of nice. And he was a very personable
individual. (01:12:28)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had mentioned earlier the guys who went and grew the
beards. The guys who grew the beards?
Veteran: Yeah, they—
Interviewer: What did they…Did they give you information or do you have no idea what
they did?
Veteran: Oh, exactly. We ran those operations in Europe. We’d dress people up and do
something and they’d go do it and then come back and report it and never be seen again. In other
words, they would go somewhere else but they were new there. And so, if we dressed up in some
mood, we had to go to accoutrements to confirm that. So, they came in town and introduced
themselves and got to know people. And they were inspectors maybe of farm land or some
agriculture or something off the wall. And they had enough information on it to be believable.
And so, they just looked like everybody else and they spoke their lingo to a point. It really wasn’t
that important for what they were going to do. So…But they wanted to keep up with current
events. But they had sensitivities that I didn’t know about. You shut an area off, I found out later
when I got in the infantry, we’d shut down an area and bring in 25 helicopters. And you needed a
certain area. Or 10 at a time, whatever. Well anyway, they ended up dropping a pretty big unit in
�33
the area. That unit was…that could be a battalion of 500 or a brigade of 2000. And they dropped
a brigade in there. (01:14:10)
Interviewer: Right. Okay, so they were doing kind of advanced scouting for you,
essentially?
Veteran: That’s—oh, well…advanced infiltration of the local community for intelligence
purposes.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So now…So, you have the field exercises periodically. Now,
what played out when the Cuban Missile Crisis happened? How did that effect things for
your base or your unit?
Veteran: Right. What we did is we went on alert and I stayed in the—I stayed at Fort Hood. And
we briefed. We had briefings in the Pentagon. Not—we weren’t involved but they called up all
of our lieutenants and all of us had to become good at something quickly. And then, we’d get
almost the same kind of information. But we were doing: we’d interpret the photo interpretations
of all the vessels on the high seas that were coming from Russia. And then we’d run our U-2
pilots over Cuba more than once a day. And we’d compare what is going—see what is going on.
Very time sensitive. And they would be marked up quickly. And then that transposed to our
organization. So, I had general officers coming to Fort Hood and other general officers going to
the Pentagon. So, east went there and west came to us. And so, we briefed a forward divisions,
commanding generals, and that kind of stuff. And also, some of the uplying, higher level general
officers. And some of these guys had been in World War 2 and all that kind of stuff and they
could really see between us. So, we didn’t make many mistakes; they would catch them and
make sure they were saying the right kind of things. So, we briefed them all during that time. In
�34
the meantime—I don’t know if America knew this or not, maybe they did, but we stationed both
of our armored divisions in a tactical posture in Texas. We also stationed, and I wasn’t aware—I
didn’t get in the ground on this one—we also had several airwings postured the same way.
That’s just in Texas. And then we had our two airborne divisions in Florida and the
communications between the two. And we knew that President Kennedy was getting some
advice and we were hoping that we weren’t going to go to war but we knew what we needed to
do and so we’d do it. (01:16:56)
Veteran: We had also—I didn’t know that but I learned later—that a lot of Cubans had been
coming here and they had been trained to do things. And the fighter pilots in country, that were
friendly to keeping it a free country, were also available to come to the war…the beach? Or
whatever you want to call that whole Battle of Pigs. Whatever it is called. Area. So that was all
set up and when you—when they attacked and the President cancelled our operation so we stood
down. We were in—I was still physically in Fort Hood. And the folks in Florida stood down.
And so, the Cubans that went in got wiped out pretty much. They had no air cover because we
cancelled all of that. Because we could have really put them in a back brace. And so, I don’t
know what that saved. Did that save World War 3? I am not sure. But I do know that the Soviet
ships turned around and went back. We had such a fine relationship with Cuba. That was not a
problem. But when the Russians got in there, they turned it into a problem for us. So, that’s
something we were very sensitive about, even today. So… (01:18:27)
Interviewer: Alright. But basically, when a lot of this was going down, your unit was
involved in a lot of the intelligence work and preparations for what the military response
would be if we had one.
�35
Veteran: And we kept organized what the fleets were doing and what they were doing on the
ground. Because they had a missile capability that could have reached the United States. At least,
that’s what we were told. And so we’d watch. And what they would do: they moved the stuff that
could hit us out and then they put them in their shelters. So, we watched them every day while
they are doing all that stuff. So, they kept structurally changing it. Threat level now is X; it is
now going back to Y. And so—and the Pentagon and us, we did the same thing. And basically,
all of our sea, air, and ground forces were all informed, because we had a lot of stuff at sea at the
same time, as you know. But during that time…During that time, I put in a request—because I
was being coached by Lieutenant Colonel Rose and also his applying to put in a request to
become a regular Army officer. So, I wouldn’t be reserve, I’d be rifted. And so, I went up for
interviews and I lived at 209 Dunn Street in Killeen, Texas. And so, when I—I was briefed by
the 1-star, whatever he had to say, and then I had audience with Lieutenant General Dunn. And
he laughed. He said, “You live on my street.” He was laughing at me and all that stuff.
(01:20:07)
Veteran: And when he had one of his parties—he’d have a party every year—he made it a
point…He and his wife—his was wife was miss straightforward. She was wearing—here is the
commanding general of 3rd Corps Armored biggest unit in town, and he’s running around and his
wife is wearing a cotton dress that has got flowers on it. Very down to earth. And he hunted me
down, he embarrassed everyone around me. He said, “I want to meet you because you are one of
my commanders.” He went down…He didn’t care who you were. You commanded a chicken
food, he went down to see the chicken food commander. So, he was very personable. Very
personable. (01:20:47)
�36
Veteran: So, I don’t know what he did but it was strong enough to get me into orders to move in
November, 1963 from Fort Hood to Fort Benning, Georgia and to get my infantry training.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, had you made that move when Kennedy was assassinated? Or
did that come while you were still in Texas?
Veteran: I was on the road. On the 23rd of November, 1963 I drove just south of Dallas, Texas. I
forget what highway I was on? I think it was 10 and I was heading east. I pulled into a gas
station. And this is terrible. See? Burned in my mind. I pulled into a gas station to tank up. I was
driving a Volkswagen bus with my family: wife and 3 children. And somebody said, “Somebody
shot and killed the president,” or “Somebody shot the president.” I said, “Well, it couldn’t
happen to a nicer guy.” I said, “That’s a stupid thing for somebody to say. Why would they want
to say a nasty thing about our president? He’s our leader, he’s commander in chief.” And I get in
the car. I was furious. And I drove to the motel and it was on there. I just—my heart just went
ahh. So, when I arrived in Fort Hood, we lived—we were some place, a hotel or whatever—
everything was shut down for a number of days as you know. (01:22:15)
Interviewer: And you arrived at Fort Benning?
Veteran: Yeah, I drove right to Columbus and I got in some place. The Army put me in some
kind of a hotel situation until I found a place I could rent downtown. And but—everything shut
down. Everything was shut down. And so, we went through that whole process of grieving. My
wife is German. She didn’t understand a lot of that but she knew that that was problematic. She
just didn’t understand it. My kids? They were too young to understand anything. So, that was
how dare them? How dare anybody do that? And that turned out to be—so, I did some research
on that sometime later and…But that? I don’t know how you would prevent that kind of thing.
�37
And that’s what I am concerned about: what we’ve got now. We’ve got to keep our president, as
we did him, in prayer every day.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, eventually you get into Fort Benning and you can start picking
up what you are supposed to be doing. So, what is the assignment there?
Veteran: Okay, I was as a—I was a first lieutenant because I had enough time and grade to make
first lieutenant. And I moved into the first battalion airborne, 188th infantry regiment, winged
attack. And the 11th air assault division, which was a training division. It was training in air
mobile concepts. The generals of the World War 2 were trying to figure out how can we move
people and keep them organized and still have the ability and flexibility to move them quickly?
There’s no—historically speaking—there is no successful airborne operation of any size. Small
units but not—they always get scattered all over the place. That is why they had these clickers in
Normandy. (01:24:09)
Veteran: So, they wanted to eliminate that problem. So, what they did? They formed this—I
think the 11th Airborne Division was called back on active duty, because they had come out of
Europe, and made an air assault. And…But everybody—the generals—were all airborne
operators. They knew the things there. But they experimented with helicopters. And then they
kept getting them smaller and smaller where we could fly everybody in helicopters and we could
either jump out of them on the ground, jump out of them in parachutes, or in some of them, you
could hover and you’d come down in a ladder. All kinds of ways of doing it. And so, I got into
there and I was the executive officer for B Company, 1st Battalion, 188th Infantry Regiment. And
that was—they were physically in Harmony Church within the Fort Benning complex. So, I
started there and then I went through…The orientation I had to go through officer infantry school
first. Now, I had been there as an enlisted man, you know, when I was in Missouri at Fort
�38
Leonard Wood. So, this is essentially the same thing, only it had some different kinds of twists
and changes. And they—I remember one situation I thought I blew. You had to make decisions
on stuff, on crossing areas that were what they called danger areas. They had a little water there
so if you made the wrong decision, you would fall in the water. And so, they changed it around
real quick, moved us around when we were in that. And if you made the wrong decision, they
would say well, you just got shot in the head Harry, or lieutenant, or whatever they called us.
You’re in charge now. And I had one that I couldn’t figure out what to do. I usually had a team
concept and but I—get it done. (01:26:12)
Veteran: And so, the poor guy fell in the water. So, my briefing was when I got with the sergeant
and whoever it was that was evaluating what I was doing. I just raked him over the coals. I raked
him over the coals. I was not prepared and I don’t care to admit that. I think that is important to
know. This is new. I have been…I have had assignments before that are a lot more dangerous
than this. And if they fell in the water, they were dead. They were killed or hurt or something.
And so, I just smoked him. Maybe I got a point on that because I got through that course. And I
went back to the company and I found out all the officers were either West Point or officer
candidate. You know, cum laude. And here’s this triple bang who is a direct commission
mustang and I don’t know anything and I still don’t have a college education. And I am in B
company. Well, the B company commander there was very straight and he was rigid straight.
Hard to do anything with. But he was consistent on certain things you need to do. so, I focused
on those. As the administrator, I tried to take a lot of the administrator harassment off his back.
He had a drunk that would make PFC and get busted the next month because he went out and got
drunk. So, I fixed that problem. Nobody talked to anybody where they lived. Why do you do this
or what’s going on? They didn’t get into that. And what do you have to offer? This guy was a
�39
baker. And he used to get up at 2 in the morning and he would bake his stuff that the military
police in the cantonment area would drive out to test it for us before we got there at 6:30 after
our 5 mile run. And so we made—military police were our friends in B company mess hall. So,
what we did to fix him: we’d pay him. Every pay day, he’d show up. We’d take all his money
away. We would drive him downtown to a nice hotel. We would pay his bill and his food and his
alcohol and leave. And Monday morning, we’d pick him up again, bring him out, wash him up,
put him back in the dining facility and he was there until the next pay day. (01:28:37)
Veteran: And he made corporal. And it stuck. But they didn’t know how to communicate with
him. I thought that was far better than the way—the straight way to handle them is just to drag
him out of the service. But he made friends. And later on, I will tell you what happened in
combat because of what he did.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, do you start working and using helicopters and things? Is this
part of what you’re going to be doing once you’re with a unit? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, even though I was executive officer, I had to jump off a 44-foot tower, I had to
jump out of a helicopter hovering 120-feet off the ground, 90-feet off the ground.
Interviewer: If you’re jumping off from 120-feet up, do you climb down something or just
free fall?
Veteran: No, you’re on two—for safety purposes—you’re on two ropes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And it’s a certain kind of a new—or whatever it is—it’s a mixed material. I can’t
remember what it is but it was very strong. It could hold 3000 pounds, each one. So, we’d double
�40
hook them into the helicopter. We had 4 guys or 8, depending on what’s going on. And you got 4
out on the…On the…
Interviewer: On the runners? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah. On the runners there or whatever. Yeah. But anyway, so at that time, you go.
And you go together because otherwise the helicopter would go crazy. And then if there is more
on there, then you hook—you hook them up. But anyway, the idea was once you jump—maybe
it was just 4 when we did this. You had one guy that was a crew chief and what he would do,
we’d be hooked in there with these things that you use in mountain climbing and all that stuff.
He unhooked that and that would come down to us. (01:30:36)
Veteran: So, we would have to collect the rope and take off. If we were in a combat situation,
that was important because we didn’t want the enemy to get ahold of that stuff because it was
still good and we could use it for any numbers. We could put…trip people coming after us or
something else. Or get rid of it. So, I had to go through that. And then later on, we had these
helicopters; the chinooks had rotors at the front and the back. And we would hover and you’d
come down on a ladder that’s maybe 60-feet or so off the deck. And that means you—we
could—if we were in a area that was had a lot of foliage, you could get in the foliage that way.
You could get through and then you would drop the ladder because it would hook up the air—the
helicopter and mess it up. I was a safety officer on some training. Our cav unit—we had a—9th
cav was in there and they were fighters. They were like infantry that had all kinds of stuff that
they could do. And they had their helicopters were part of the program, part of their organization.
So, we—I trained with them and helped them do well. And that was a real responsibility and a
delight to do. We got to known the folks in Columbus. They got to live with us and when we get
back from some of our exercises—we went to the Carolinas to do that too—and that’s where my
�41
connection from my 3rd corps days paid off because the Marines showed up right away and they
said, “Okay, how can I help you?” So, they tried to help us. And we didn’t win any battles. I’ll
tell you that. We didn’t win anything because that’s when the 5th armored came in—the 5th
mechanized came in—and we couldn’t defeat them. (01:32:37)
Veteran: But the intelligence was helpful for us because at least we had an idea of what we were
against. And what we did…we could hide. And we could be in some place they couldn’t find us.
And can you imagine a large infantry unit with helicopters, trying to hide? And what we would
do is we would get our chemical unit out there and they’d build a... this ground fog. And you
couldn’t find us. And it would just sit there; it wouldn’t go anywhere. Just sit there. And we just
wouldn’t move, wouldn’t communicate. You know, radio silence. And we did to some level but
we didn’t get—we didn’t pull any stunts. We couldn’t do any funny things. When we got—
sometimes we would get captured. And so, we would be very careful with…Because they—
some of them got rough with us. They shouldn’t—we are American soldiers. So, I got after them
on that too. And didn’t make any friends but I didn’t get hurt and that was good. But we couldn’t
have that. And you know, that was it. Those were straightforward, strictly infantry stuff. And I
did everything: I reported the wounded in action and all that stuff. I got that training while I was
out in the Carolinas because we had to go through that process of what do you do? And so, that
was excellent. So then, our commanders changed. The West Pointer left and another guy came in
and he was OCS, officer candidate school officer, but he had been in Vietnam. (01:34:20)
Veteran: Very successful. Name was Livingston. And he trained us combat action drills. So,
when something would happen, it was scenario number 1 alpha or something, whatever, we got
that, we could get it down like that. So, it depends on if we were ambushed, we would do
something. If it were some kind of a passing thing and we were overpowered, we would do
�42
something else, call in help. If it was a long-range reconnaissance of finding something and
hiding out and being still and don’t let anyone run over us but report what they are doing. That
kind of thing. So, we went through all of that and I had to do that too, right with them. I walked
in the swamps in Fort Stewart with the mortar platoon. And I wasn’t good at it because I couldn’t
carry the big stuff but I carried whatever I could. And sometimes I would be with my own—the
mortar platoon, you have your infantry platoons up here moving forward in front of you.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, I think we were talking about you have joined your battalion
now with what is now the 11th Air Assault Division—
Veteran: The Air Assault Division.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. And you were kind of talking about some of the different things
that you had done with them and are there other pieces of that story at your first stage as
you’re first kind of learning the ropes and working with these guys? (01:36:18)
Veteran: Yeah, learning how to become an infantry officer. When I was in the Army working in
the intelligence service, sometimes I wore civilian clothes. I mostly wore a uniform but then
again, it was more casual. In some cases, we had some serious things where people got hurt.
Some of them disappeared, that kind of thing. Of course, I don’t have a whole lot of detail on it
anyway. But here it is a regiment and they have rules and regulations that we complied with and
here whatever I was working on, those didn’t apply. You just did your job. So, here I am in the
infantry and so I got in and there was 180 men in that bravo company at that time. And that’s
average. And so, I had a really tough, sharp first sergeant. And I didn’t know what to do with
anything. And but I knew how to where a uniform. So, I got that part right. So, what the noncommissioned officers did by and by: they trained me how to become a good, strong leader as an
�43
infantry officer. And I needed to have the technical stuff done well. So, that means I learned how
to fire all the—everything. All the weapons. I didn’t have—I did, I fired the mortar. Boom! You
know, the tube. But all the weapons I could take them apart, even in the dark. Every hand gun
and rifle and stuff like that. Machine gun. (01:38:02)
Veteran: And so, they taught me that and they taught me tactics and how to communicate those
kinds of things. They also in Harmony Church, right next to the Ranger department. The Ranger
department trains everybody in the United States Army, that wants to and qualifies, the Ranger
techniques of warfare. That’s the officer and enlisted personnel. So, these guys were all Ranger
airborne, jungle experts and had been in airborne units a long time. Some of them had been in
airborne units a long time although we were not airborne. The unit was airborne but we were not
at the time commissioned as that function. And but anyway, just like I mentioned to you before
about how my shiny boots getting attention? Well, when we had our annual—you had field
inspections and they had maintenance inspections annually. And a company commander could
rise well with superb reports, so I knew how to work those. And so, I got with the supply people
and my supply sergeant hoarded all the brand-new stuff. Look how wonderful my supply room
looks? And he was a senior, non-commissioned officer and I respected him but I said, “It’s the
worst one I have ever seen.” And so, within a week, he had all the clean blankets that had been
repaired and all the new stuff they had on the shelves was with the troops as it should be. If
something breaks, you replace it. Okay, so I got that squared away and all his books reported
all—everything I just said. (01:40:05)
Veteran: We did that up front, properly. Then, took on the armory. The armory is a place where
you can lose your can in an inspection. And so, what we did there is everybody had to do what I
did. You clean your weapon, you make it right, turn it in at the armory, armorer and I had two
�44
armorers in there and they were really sharp corporals. And they did the best job they could and I
gave them breaks and extra plaudits and, you know, whatever. Good benefits at the mess hall.
And so, they did an excellent job in keeping us squared away. And then, one of the things I
found out about security: you could break into that place without a whole lot of effort. So, I put
double breaks. I also doubled the walls. The walls were built with an outside but I built an
internal inside. So, you break the outside wall off, it’s going to take a month of Sundays to get
further beyond that point. So, the walls themselves became fortresses and the windows and
doors, you would need unsettling force to get through to the armory. So, we got that done. And I
remember one time we had a field inspection or maintenance…I am sorry: a maintenance
inspection coming up and so I don’t know who was thinking this through but this was a brigade
sized unit. We were a brigade, so 3 battalions, so we were going to go out and do something and
another battalion was going to go out and so forth, rotating around, and so each one had their
time. Our time landed when we had this maintenance, annual maintenance, inspection coming.
The other battalions didn’t have that problem but nobody could change that. Of course, I was not
happy with that. So, what we did—the sergeant’s—when I came to my sergeant, E-6s—they
were all squad leaders. They had 10 men that worked for them and they did things right and they
were sharp. And so, a couple of them, about 3 or 4 of them, got ahold of me and said—so, we sat
down and had coffee with nobody around us. He says, “We are going to take you down to the
Ranger school department. And they have equipment and they also have the instructors and all
that fun stuff. And what we are going to do is we are going to get a table of organizational and
equipment issued of all our weapons.” (01:42:44)
Veteran: “Okay.” “Now, what we need you to do, Mr. XO, executive officer, we want you to
appoint, and we will give you the names, 6 men to be on vacation out of town during these days
�45
that we are out in the field. And when we come back. Actually when—mostly when we come
back so they are out of the field to start with and they are still in this area in our compound.”
Alright. So, we went out to our exercise with those weapons and they worked fine. And so then
when we came back, when the guys came back into the cantonment area, these 6 guys were there
and they each collected by serial number every one of those weapons. Machine guns, mortars,
you name it; whatever we had. And drove them down to the Ranger department and they spent 6
days cleaning them. The inspectors came by and one of my corporals was there for the inspection
to salute and open the place up. And they went through and they couldn’t get dust off anything
because he spent the time that was climatized—to climatize the facility for that event. (01:44:06)
Veteran: And we passed. They thought it was amazing. Everybody else was all messed up. There
was a little bit of goo here and this is stuck here. This didn’t work over there and all that stuff.
So, they couldn’t—they never did—I don’t think they found out how we did that. They probably
thought we were cheating. Yeah right. So anyway, that was the first lesson I got from them. And
so that was very helpful. As far as when the annual—part of that—I guess they went to the
supply room and gave him high marks. Oh man, this is the way all supply rooms should look. It
serves the company and the personnel and yet its up to date, it is current, its clean, its orderly, all
the books are—and your supply sergeant is sharp looking. Puerto Rican. He was great but he was
a hoarder so we had to watch that. Then also during the inspection, inspector general’s annual
inspection, where they went through the barracks and all that stuff? We had two guys that had
emergency leave and they had to leave for two days with one of my deuce and a halfs because
they had no transportation. In that deuce and a half was all of our paraphernalia, our junk, and
whatever else that we shouldn’t have. And that—they drove—I don’t know where they went. I
had no idea. So, we got through there and then everything was fine, inspections were laid out
�46
fine, floors were fine. There was no extra stuff because usually you would have a little something
extra and it doesn’t fit in your locker, you just lay it against the wall. So, all of that was gone,
including the headquarters where I was. So, that worked out. And so, we did that kind of stuff.
And the other thing we did for morale, which the other companies never thought about, well we
used to go on 15-mile marches, forced march, and they’d have pretty much their combat gear
with them. That gets heavy after a while. And I had a Volkswagen bus I told you about I came
back with from Germany. So, what I used to do: I’d go to B company and I’d get these—I’d get
the—I’d get these coffee urns with 100 cups of coffee in it, or whatever it had, and then I had all
these little…I had these bakery items that our baker made that morning. I had lots of them.
(01:46:28)
Veteran: So, what we would do is we would go out there and I’d get ahead of the—they are
coming down the road like this so I would get ahead of them, I’d stop, and as the troops would
walk by, we’d hand them a coffee and a pastry and then a coffee and a pastry, coffee…And then
when they got past us, we’d go in front of the line and pick all of that trash up and they’d leave
and then I had a truck behind them go up to the next formation and do the same thing until we
got the company done. All hundred and whatever that was out there. So, that was really—that
was a morale builder. So, the battalion said, “Boy, that’s nice. We got to—” So, we had to
expand that to help the battalion do that too. So, we did that. So, that was fun. And of course, we
made friends with the military police because they had gotten very close to us because they
would sample our stuff around after midnight. And so, they helped us out when things got kind
of stuffed. One of the problems I had—I’m a Talmadge—and one of the problems—Talmadges
are fine in general but you had little groups that are in the south, little groups in the north, little
groups in the west. And sometimes those little groups of Talmadges get in trouble. Or they cause
�47
trouble. And one of the things that I had to fight was the racial business. The difference in
Georgia between a black man and a white man, or such. Now when we went on one of our
maneuvers, we took everybody, told them we would have this inspection waiting for us. But we
went out and had to have our formations and understand a quick response to different scenarios
that we’d be exposed to and hit hard and be evaluated on it and then maybe do it again and again
until we get it down, then wait a while—a month or two—and do it again and see what we
remember. (01:48:27)
Veteran: One of these times we were getting ready. And we were going to be gone—this was one
of those Carolina things—we were going to go for maybe a month. And so, one of my NCOs has
his vehicle and I noticed his headlight was out. And so, I said, “Okay, I want two of you guys,”
because they are black guys, “I want two in case I needed a witness.” And I didn’t know I
needed a witness. Drove downtown. Got a phone call; Sergeant Jones. “Lieutenant, I am in jail.
Come get me.” “Okay Jones, I am on the way.” So, I went down there and sure enough, Jones
and his buddy were in jail because Jones’ car’s light was burned out. So, I talked to the desk
sergeant. I said, “Sergeant, I am Lieutenant Talmadge. I am executive officer of rifle company
and these two men work for me. I gave them a direct order to come down and get that car fixed.”
He said, “You’re darn tootin’, lieutenant, and we got them. And what do you want?” I said, “I
want them out now.” I says, “You can’t have them.” I said, “May I have your phone please?
Here, just bring your phone over here. Put it right here because I am going to call my Uncle
Herman. Uncle Herman is the governor of Georgia. He’s also a brigadier general in the Georgia
National Guard and he’s my uncle. I am his favorite nephew. Give me this phone.” He said, “Just
a minute, please.” Chief of police came out and said, “Sir, when would you like them out?” So, I
walked out of the place with those sergeants and I told them, “You guys, you flatheads! What’s
�48
wrong with you? Getting in trouble with those police like that. You should treat them with
respect. Afterall, they are white people.” And we got in the car and drove off laughing. Well, that
should have never happened. (01:50:12)
Interviewer: Of course not.
Veteran: Because those same guys were with me in combat. Because shortly thereafter—shortly
thereafter there was an order that came out to us. We were in the field training locally and we
had to come in from the field because our order—our division was going to turn in their colors
and we were going to be appointed as the 1st Cavalry Air Mobile. And so, Mother Dorcy came
out and accepted the flag and all that stuff and what she said and we hugged her and we thanked
the Lord for her and all that, whatever we did to her, because she is the mother of the 1st cav.
And so, we did that on 1 July, 1965. So then, we had to get ready for our combat assignment. We
didn’t know where we were going. And if they did, I can’t—I don’t know what it was. It was in
Vietnam. That’s all I knew. So then, they selected some folks to be the advanced party. Oh,
advanced party? Hmm. Wonder what they do. I don’t know. Nobody ever trained me in that. So,
what they did: they took all of the executive officers of anything, including a 1 star general. And
they sent the 1 star general and about 2500 of us over there in August of 1965. And we flew out
of Georgia and we landed at San Francisco. I was able to say goodbye to my brother and my
mother who lived there. And then, we continued on to Hawaii, to Guam, and then into Vietnam.
And that’s where the 5th—the 3rd Marines were located there. They were located there and we
stayed there for a couple days. (01:52:22)
Interviewer: That might have been Da Nang?
�49
Veteran: Yes, thank you. I forgot that. So, we were there for—we had no idea what was going
on. We were still in our nice, clean—you know, ironed—jungle fatigues. They weren’t jungle,
they were regular fatigues. Whatever…dungarees or not dungarees but they were the old, old
field—
Interviewer: Were they greens or khakis or—
Veteran: Yeah, they were greens. Khakis and greens. But greens. So, and we had leather boots
and all that stuff. So, we finally flew into An Khê. It was a short strip. It was owned by a rubber
plantation owner and wealthy man. The mansion was still there. You had the airfield that ran in
front of it. And we could—that one C-130 could land on there very nicely without going off the
end of it. And there was about 60 of us in there for the whole time we left Georgia. You either
sat, stood, or laid on the deck to make up the time because it was a very demanding flight.
Nonetheless, our executive officer was a major promoted to lieutenant colonel. He was a very
kindly gentleman but tough. And our commanding officer was a guy by the name of Ken
Martell. He was an aviator, a very accomplished soldier. I don’t know if he was West Point or
not but he was one of the rising officers in this process of air mobility. (01:54:08)
Veteran: So, he just—a sharp career, a lot of neat things. So, he was our commanding officer.
We didn’t get to know him until—because he came on board when we got anointed as the 1st
cav. So, we were in Vietnam for that month of August pretty much by ourself and into the first
part or two weeks of September. And there was a brigade of the 101st airborne that was our
sheltering organization. They provided us security, they fed us, did everything. Helped us set up
a water point so we could go get our little showers and generally trying to teach us how to be
safe. And the reason I say that is because some nights—some nights we’d get a sniper shooting
at us and if for some reason we wouldn’t have had automatic, every other bullet or every 5th one
�50
was marked so you could actually look at it. So, you get down and they taught us how to react to
that. But don’t do any shooting. You don’t shoot anything; they take care of that, because we
might shoot one of them accidentally. So, we did that and that was fine. And then we found out
what our job is. And the 1 star got out and he gave us this rollicking speech that we are going to
stop the communists here. They are trying to come, stepping stones across the Pacific and
eventually get us in our homeland so we are going to stop them right here in this Indochinese
area. Okay fine, general. Great. What are we going to do tomorrow? So, tomorrow we showed
up and they suggested wear a hat to cover our eyes because it was going to be bright out. We are
going to work all day and so we had our green little fatigues on, whatever you want to call those
things and our leather shoes, boots. And so, this big guy, he must have outranked the general or
something…Well anyways, whatever rank he was, he must have been really up there because he
showed up and he is from the corps of engineers. And he’s going to show us what to do today.
And so, he explained the layout of the facility and one large area had to be cleaned and we—
“They should have sent privates but they sent you all so you’re going to have to learn how to
clear the area so you can land 453 helicopters.” Or whatever. (01:56:40)
Veteran: So, we went out there that day and we worked out tails off. He made sure we had water
breaks and he was up there checking our work and make sure we go down there and get it right.
And then we had some Vietnamese go with us. They probably worked with us in the daytime and
were Viet Cong at night. I have a picture: I was standing with my Viet Cong buddy. He had one
of these—I still have my bamboo whatever…machete. But anyway, he worked us like dogs. I
mean, it was a long day. We were all dragging and sweating and then we took off our shirts and
the t-shirts were all wet. So, finally we put our shirts back on, he put his t-shirt on and we all
looked at him—we just about fell over—he was a corporal. And he had all of us driving—he
�51
drove us nuts. And he just—I don’t know where he went. We didn’t see him again but he was
sent probably to get some other group going. But he knew what he was doing. We didn’t know
what he was doing. All of us had calluses. We didn’t have any gloves. So, we did that and we did
that and did that. And they had bulldozers and all kinds of stuff. And where we had our tents
near the airfield. One side of the airfield we had the tents, then you had the airfield, then you had
some more…it had a blank area, then you had the river, the Bong Son River. (01:58:05)
Veteran: So, we had to walk across the airstrip and across this open field to get down to the river.
And so, this big black guy—I assigned everybody a buddy and I said, “You’re not my buddy.
You’re my body guard. So, we are not buddies. None of this chummy-chummy stuff.” He was a
neat guy. I forget where he came from but he was a very personable gentleman. He was a…he
was in the fire team so he was very good with a rifle. Very good with a rifle. So, we were out
there together. So, I walk with him across the field and next to the mansion and while he was
bathing, I had my rifle. I had ammunition and I was ready. So, I’d be looking around my little
sector. And the defense was way down here. I wasn’t going to shoot anybody but the defense
was—they really had to watch the river and watch us. But I watched for him and then when I got
my little bath while he did the same thing. And then we’d come back, walk across that area. So,
we did that for a couple of days. Then about the third or fourth day, all of a sudden, the area was
cordoned off and it was bulldozered with these thrashers in front of it. And every time they hit a
bouncing betty, it would pump up about this high and go off and it would hit an area about 30
meters out. And had one of those things going off with this gentleman and myself, we’d have
been dead. We walked across that time and all of us did. For 2 or 3 days. And they finally
figured out. So, they got them all. They got rid of all that stuff. They just kept doing—and it
would rock the machine and then they’d adjust it and then they’d go continue on. So, we did that
�52
for…well, whatever it took us. And then they finished that up. Then…Oh, I was up at night.
There is always something to do at night. I don’t know what it is, but they had something for us
to do at night. We had movies at night. And even the Viet Cong watched the movies. And then
every once in a while, they would shoot at it. (02:00:27)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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TalmadgeR2152V1
Creator
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Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
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2017-09
Title
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 1), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge was born in Glen Ridge, New Jersey on October 16th, 1937. He joined the Navy Reserve on October 23rd, 1954, at the age of 17. Roger completed basic training and boot camp at Wold-Chamberlain Naval Air Station, where he also received training to become a certified electronics technician so that he could work on navigational equipment. During his time in the Navy Reserve, Roger also helped with recruiting. He then joined the Army and became an intelligence officer. He completed 3 months of basic training for the Army at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri. Roger then completed an additional 3 months of intelligence training in 1957 at Fort Holabird. He became an order of battle specialist. Roger was transferred to Germany in June 1957. He was first assigned to the 7th United States Army with the 525th MI battalion for a short time and then joined the 207th MI detachment. Roger did a lot of crypto work while in the intelligence service in Germany. He also worked in the debriefing interrogation section. He received a direct commission in 1962 and worked as a deputy executive officer. Roger then came to Fort Hood, Texas, to the 203rd MI detachment as a second lieutenant of the military intelligence. He moved to Fort Benning, Georgia, in November of 1963 to receive infantry training. He became a first lieutenant and was the executive officer for B company, 1st battalion, 188th infantry regiment. Roger went to Vietnam in 1965.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c1c4311f80fd91c87c8f6df7c4fe518e.mp4
fd90bd5780920385eb90fde8c63b63c4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a832471d08964179a01a9da0de3e357d.pdf
a9172b9d8f95408ed38b1c237b1b205d
PDF Text
Text
Rowland, Daniel
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Iraq War
Interviewee’s Name: Daniel Rowland
Length of Interview: (1:09:57)
Interviewed by: Koty Leroy Rollins
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “I’m here with Daniel Rowland from Comstock Park and the interviewer is
Koty Leroy Rollins of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Alright Daniel let’s
just jump into this, when were you born and where at?”
Well I was born in Grand Rapids in 1975, July time frame, at least that’s what my parents told
me, they could be wrong I don’t know.
Interviewer: “You never know. So what was your early life like? What–” (00:57)
Ah pretty mundane, I mean pretty common, went to school, grew up, had an older brother who
liked to, you know be an older brother we’ll just leave it at that. Nothing too exciting.
Interviewer: “Alright, when did you enlist and what led you to that choice?”
My brother had enlisted in the Marine Corps and I’m like “Oh that’s cool.” Then I– The sad fact
was I actually applied for an ROTC scholarship and got a full ride to North Carolina State
University and my lack of discipline led me to drop out and enlist.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you enlisted after spending how much time in college?”
Three semesters, cause apparently if you go to college on the government’s dime and don’t
finish, you owe them money, or you enlist.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “Sounds about right, did your brother like, tell you all these cool stories, did
he prep you for boot camp or anything?”
Nah, he only went in about a year and a half before me, I mean he told me things but in
retrospect I think he was just messing with me.
Interviewer: “What type of things did he tell you then?”
Oh it’s not that hard, it’s fun and you know typical big brother taunting the little brother things as
you follow his footsteps. That makes it not as enjoyable as one would think.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what was boot camp like then were you prepared for it at all?”
In general yeah I mean it’s not– Physically it wasn’t that hard but you know coming from three
semesters in ROTC I kind of already knew the drill of stuff. (2:30) So this is gonna sound self
aggrandizing to a certain extent but like I think it was about two weeks in they made me the
guide for the platoon and I ended up doing that because I already knew a lot of the stuff like
ranks and all that because like I said the three semester in ROTC kind of gave me a head start on
everything that they teach you, common Marine Corps history, Navy ranks, Marine Corps ranks,
how to march, of course that might of been nine years of marching band too but either way– I
was a geek.
Interviewer: “So you were pretty prepared.”
For the general knowledge and physical aptitude but I’m sure as you know being a former Navy
is– No matter how much you know being prepared is not as easy as it sounds especially when
you’re the guide, somebody messes up you get punished.
Interviewer: “And stepping back just a little bit one thing I forgot to ask, did you have any
family history of military or were you and your brother like the first.”
�Rowland, Daniel
I had an uncle serve in Vietnam but he died there and I never knew him so I couldn’t say, and
then my other uncle was in the Air Force for two years but he went to Germany, came home and
he had some pretty weird stories but we won’t go there, Germans are weird apparently.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so it was just you and your brother then for the most part?”
Yeah from the immediate family, nobody– Yeah, nobody else I knew served, I know my dad
tried but got 4Fed cause bad feet or something and then I know my grandpa tried and “We need
you home!” World War II but nobody– Nobody seemed to be able to get in until me and my
brother.
Interviewer: “Fair enough, now when you say 4F you mean like medically.”
Right, yeah between his eyes and his feet I guess they didn’t want him. Back then– They weren’t
as accepting back then of medical– Of any little medical condition where nowadays anybody–
Cause they can fix most things, here have some new shoes. (4:22)
Interviewer: “So going back to the boot camp thing you said you were the guide, was that
like the leader of the cadets or what was that?”
Yeah, I don’t know what did they call it. Yeah it’s you’re the head recruit, I guess you could say
“in charge” but you really weren’t, you were pretty much the top– You’re pretty much who the
drill instructors told to get stuff done and who to delegate.
Interviewer: “And you were the one that got in trouble when someone else messed up.”
Oh yeah, there were mornings I would be up before the rest of the platoon getting thrashed
because someone messed up during the night or something, I don’t know, I don’t remember.
Interviewer: “When you say getting thrashed do you mean like PT or like–”
�Rowland, Daniel
Yeah, no they don’t– They were not allowed physical contact but they could make you run in
place, do push ups, there were four exercises, funnel kicks, push ups, run in place, don’t
remember the fourth one off the top of my head but basically you did it until your arms were
jelly and you couldn’t do anything else.
Interviewer: “And this was in ‘95?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
I’m sure they still kind of do– I mean it was the Marine Corps, you gotta be hard ass I guess
would be the term nowadays.
Interviewer: “So pretty much everything else other than that you were good at, you knew.”
(5:35)
I wouldn’t say “good at” but I knew enough to not have to, you know worry about it, how's that
sound.
Interviewer: “Did you have any issues with the other recruits, I know sometimes they don’t
take–”
Well being the guide yeah sometimes like you’d have the one they just couldn’t get anything
right or was moving too slow and you either had to help them out or get trashed more, I was in
pretty good shape when I got out of boot camp.
Interviewer: “Alright so when– Once you graduated boot camp what did you move onto?”
�Rowland, Daniel
Marine combat training which is three weeks of just basic cause every Marine is a rifleman so
we had to basically go somewhere and spend three weeks in the field and living in tents and
walking through woods, nothing amazing.
Interviewer: “Nothing fun happened there?”
Well one time it rained so hard that we had to come back from out of the field, when we went
back the next day finding all our gear in the mud was fun. Yeah it was out in California, oh joy
oh joy.”
Interviewer: “So it was out in California.”
Yeah it was the one with flashlights, I think it was I don’t know.
Interviewer: “So you– Where did you go to boot camp at?” (6:42)
San Diego, I was a Hollywood Marine as they call it.
Interviewer: “So you went all the way from Michigan to San Diego for boot camp?”
Yep and I came home for ten days, went back out to Camp Pendleton for the combat training.
Interviewer: “Alright, and where’d you go after that?”
Went to North Carolina for my job training, which I was initially an administrative clerk, yay. I
know right I got to learn how to type.
Interviewer: “That’s fun.”
And file things.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So nothing exciting happened there?”
Well it was kind of fun, my brother was stationed at Camp Lejeune and when everybody else had
to stay on the base when we got there I got to leave for the weekend and it really pissed people
off because, you know reasons and then well I ended up meeting– I ended up getting married at a
job training, I met a female Marine that was going to school as well, let’s just say that didn’t end
well but I’ll just leave that at that.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
What if we’re gonna talk about it might as well just throw it all out there right?
Interviewer: “Hey, it’s your story.”
Then I drove cross country and went to Hawaii for three and a half years. (7:50)
Interviewer: “Why did you have to drive cross country?”
Well I bought– See that was one thing my brother was good for he was a tia– Traffic
management office or whatever, he’s the guy that ships stuff around and when we graduated job
training they’re like “You can only take like two sea bags with you.” And then I asked my
brother and he’s like “Nah man you can ship whatever you want, car or whatever.” So I bought a
car, drove across the country, had it shipped out of San Francisco and went to Hawaii cause I’m
like– Cause you know how they are they want to tell all the new guys “Oh no you can’t do this
or that.” I mean if I was gonna be there for three and a half years I’m gonna have some stuff.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
For some reason cars in Hawaii are way overpriced.
Interviewer: “I can confirm that.”
�Rowland, Daniel
I assume it’s shipping costs.
Interviewer: “That and just everything is expensive in Hawaii that’s just how it goes.”
Oh yeah, it was expensive 20 years ago when I was there I can only imagine today.
Interviewer: “So, where’d you get stationed at in Hawaii?”
Camp Smith, it’s a little ho dunk base right above Pearl Harbor in a residential area, nice view
though I’ll give them that. When you look down you can see Pearl Harbor Hickam Air Force
Base which is right in the middle of Pearl Harbor, it’s pretty nice. There was like– It only had
four barracks on the base and like ten houses, it was commander in chief’s Pacific headquarters
and Marine force Pacific headquarters, it might have been 4 or 500 people stationed there. It was
interesting and small, I don’t know it wasn’t too bad. (9:20)
Interviewer: “And you did what there?”
I was an administrative clerk, I worked in the force adjutant when I first got there doing– But
before everything was electronic we got to actually file all the orders and stuff. So ooh that was
fun, and then I worked down in the classified vault for a couple of years, then ended up in the
security manager’s office doing background checks and all that fun stuff, cause you know
somebody’s gotta do it. So a nice wide array of things, went to Korea a couple times for
exercises, got to go to Seoul and Joseon and, you know, see other countries and have some fun.
Interviewer: “And what time frame did you go to Korea?”
‘96, ‘97, they were only for like a month or two each time, it wasn’t– Just some little exercises to
annoy the North Koreans I guess.
Interviewer: “Were you on like ships there or were you–”
�Rowland, Daniel
No we’d fly over and then work in some office, in some base, I don’t remember. The one time
we were in the Korean Marine Corps Base living in GP tents on their dirt soccer field in the
middle of summer and it gets hot over there and to boot the plumbing doesn't take toilet paper
well, yeah you’ve never been to Korea have you?
Interviewer: “I’ve been but–”
And when you wipe you throw it in the trash can next to the toilet and then they would take it out
and burn it. Well we were right downwind from the burn pit, so needless to say that one of my
times in Korea was not the most fun.
Interviewer: “So were you feeling some animosity from the South Koreans or was this just
all by…”
No, that's just the way they did it, I mean they had space– Because their little headquarters was
like on a hill so any flat land you could get was amazing, so we just happened to be right
downwind from the burn pit. (11:07)
Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.”
Oh yeah cause we had to walk through the bulk of it on our way to chow so by the time you got
there– It was a great dieting technique I guess, you didn’t have to feel the urge to eat.
Interviewer: “So were you working like hand in hand with the South Koreans?”
They were just joint exercises, I mean we were the command element so we didn’t actually go
out and do stuff we were just doing like the fake information would come in and then we would
process it and then disseminate down to lower command of guys actually doing stuff, so nothing
amazing.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “And were you like sitting with generals and doing all this or were you just
like sitting in a little tent typing on a thing.”
Well I was representing the security manager so I basically was the guy running around
shredding classified material, nothing too pressing. Yeah my job was not– It sounds all nice but
it’s not as glamorous as one might think.
Interviewer: “Were you like– Did you not enjoy this job? I’m assuming you didn’t sign up
with the Marines to be a clerk.”
When I signed up they gave me one of those job option packages that was air field service
support, so like air traffic control or something, it was legal clerk or administrative clerk. So I’m
like– I was fine with two of them but not the third and I’m sure you can guess which one I got
because I’m like “Woah, hey legal clerk and air traffic controller that sounds kind of fun.” And
based on my scores I’m like– Admin is like, out of three, the dumbest people go to admin and I
don’t know why but whatever, I’m not gonna complain, needs of the Marine Corps. (12:43)
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
So I got stuck there.
Interviewer: “So your time in Hawaii was pretty uneventful?”
Yeah for the most part, I went to school, I was there because, you know– Of course when I
dropped out of college the first time you know my dad’s like “Oh you’re never gonna finish
now!” So I had to prove him wrong cause I’m just that stubborn.
Interviewer: “What did you get your degree in?”
Associate’s in business and a bachelor’s in social work and then spent my last year, got divorced
while I was there too, let’s just say as a single guy with a year left on the island I had some fun
�Rowland, Daniel
but we won’t go into that because this is a family program apparently and then I got out in–
Went on a terminal leave in ‘98 and came home and got out, went to the IRR, individual ready
reserve and hung out for a while.
Interviewer: “Okay, and–”
I’m just gonna roll into the next part I assume.
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
So employment was like I was trying to– I guess I think of that time that’s when they actually
changed– In Michigan it was weird, you only needed a bachelor’s of social work to work in the
field and then they changed it master’s degree and all that stuff so I’m like– Needless to say
trying to get a job in the field I wanted wasn’t that great so during that time as a reserve Marine I
could volunteer to do active duty every now and then. (14:05) I went a couple places just for like
oh we need somebody here for a month or a month there so I dabbled around and then in 2001
there was an opportunity to go down to North Carolina for six months and I’m like “Okay, I’ll go
down there.” So I signed up and they flew me down and needless to say you know in September
stuff happened and at that time then we went over to– Well I didn’t go but the military went to
Afghanistan and since I was there it was– I volunteered for six months and then since I was there
when 9/11 happened they started calling up all the reserves like “Well while you’re here, here’s
some orders to stay another year.” And then I was officially involuntarily recalled and for the
next– Till 2004, every year I would get additional orders to stay another year, so I was basically
involuntarily activated for two years.
Interviewer: “And how did you feel about that, were you upset?”
I was fine, it’s not like I had a job back home I’m like “Well hey” and yeah when I got there I
was working at– I was originally working for the Marine reserve unit out of Lejeune and then I
got moved up to the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force Command Element cause a guy I worked
with in Hawaii he’s a colonel now and he’s like “Oh you’re here.” I’m like “Oh, how are you
�Rowland, Daniel
doing?” Cause as you know the military’s actually kind of small, especially the Marine Corps, so
having worked in the security manager’s office in Hawaii he stuck me in the security manager’s
office in Lejeune so– Because they were just starting the office so I’m like “Okay” and by that
time I was a corporal and I basically got to set that up. So that was fun, learning– Basically doing
my old job again which was kind of weird because as an administrative clerk you can work in
pretty much any– You can work with any unit, every unit rated an administrative clerk, you
know they say you do 30 years you don’t do the same job twice so but apparently I got stuck in
the same job again, but you know it pays off in the end.
Interviewer: “So when you were recalled– Or not recalled but when you went down to
North Carolina for the six months was the to do administrative work or were you doing
something else?”
Well yeah I was– They were– They were just, from my understanding I don’t know for sure,
they were– What was it called it was like the Marine augmentation command element, basically
it’s where a bunch of reserve guys, like older higher ranking guys that are retired and were still
reserve. (16:37) It’s like if the command element ever went to war these guys would get called
up to fill in key positions back in the rear. So they were just setting up and they just needed
people to come down and help them set up their infrastructure and stuff so I’m like “Oh, okay.”
Six months, I’d be doing admin stuff no big deal, I needed a job, they needed Marines, I’ll just
go and then like I said 9/11 happened and stuff just got real and you know I was cheap to call up
because I was already there.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
And so, then what happened? I don’t know, that was 2001, 2002, then I was dumb and got
married again in 2003. Yeah I got married in February of 2003, they’d just gone over to invade
Iraq in December and my office sent a Marine who apparently doesn’t know how to jump, got
injured getting off a helicopter and they’re like “Oh hey, you’re going over to replace him in
deployment.” I’m like “Okay.” So after being married three weeks I got whisked away to Iraq for
2003 and I worked with the– Well I guess it’d be more commonly called Task Force Tarawa the
�Rowland, Daniel
2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade and when I got to them in March it was the Battle of
Nasiriyah and I was tasked as the assistant security manager of the– Basically the tent where the
general and all his command stuff were and to got over sea this little security element we had and
all this other fun stuff– Oh yeah I was a sergeant by then too, and I would stay there for the next
seven years, we’ll get into that later.
Interviewer: “When you say stay there you mean stay a sergeant, not stay.”
Right, yeah. Yeah not in Iraq, though I was there enough I should’ve bought a summer home. So
yeah just to gloss my own ego more I was a meritorious sergeant yeah.
Interviewer: “Oh okay.”
That’s for the record, because I was such an outstanding jarhead.
Interviewer: “Not astounding enough to be an E6 but–” (18:37)
Oh no but they give E5 and unders away as like candy, like “Oh here, get promoted.” So I was
over there and got in some– Because we were responsible for the bulk of the forces, the Army,
and the 1st Marine Division, went up through Saudi and went north– West and then swung
around to Baghdad, we were supposedly tasked with mop up operations, heading in right south
of Baghdad and then swinging east. So we had all these little small towns and crap but Nasiriyah
was the worst fighting of the invasion. I was not actually in the fight but we were right behind
them, you know command element we basically tell everyone what to do and you could see all
the crap coming back and all the casualties,this, that. I mean it’s not– Nowhere near like a World
War II or Vietnam scenario I think our casualties were only like 100 or less if you do MIAK– Or
wounded and killed so the WAK, I don’t know we gotta work on our acronyms, there’s so many
of them I don’t know.
Interviewer: “So you never saw any of the actual fighting, no one ever attacked the
command element?”
�Rowland, Daniel
Well you could hear and when you went outside you could see cause a lot of it was at night you
could see the, like the artillery, the LAV, the tanks. So the fire fights and stuff because we were
just on the other side of– There’s a river that runs by the bridges and we were on the back end of
it and we could kind of see down you could like see it all going on. So not the same as being
obviously in it so I can’t make any grandiose claims like that but anyway after that then we
moved on. We ended up in some old Iraqi air base by Al Kut, hung out there for a couple months
after the invasion ended, sweat a lot because the desert’s hot in the summer.
Interviewer: “I had no idea.”
Really? You learn something new everyday.
Interviewer: “Exactly.”
And then came home. (20:33)
Interviewer: “So during the actual fighting I’m assuming you weren’t working on security
clearances and that sort of thing.”
No I mean most of it there, most of my job at the end of the day was just making sure the area
was secure, people that came and went had clearances, we didn’t actually process– clearances
were for the rear, you showed up you either had it or you didn’t so it’s nothing amazing. Though
I did get to see how things happened at a command level, you know it was like the fly on the
wall I just like walk in the tent and see everybody doing their jobs like the three shop who is
operations and then all the other guys are like “Oh we need this, we need that, tell them to do
this.” You know like you see war movies and you just see the soldiers are out fighting but you
know actually seeing the puppet masters I guess you’d call them, cause you know if you’re the
down on the front line fighting, you know you just go where you’re told, but seeing how they
make those decisions at the higher level I guess was pretty good for an experience level.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “Did you ever have any issues with officers?”
Who doesn’t? No, no not at that time really it was actually– Again the Marine Corps would end
up being small again later on in my career but no at the time no. Well everybody’s so focused on
the job at hand which is, you know war which is kind of why we exist then, you know personal
animosities between each other. Though there was one captain, he was the general’s aide to
camp and he was kind of a douchebag.
Interviewer: “What did he do?”
No he was just a dick.
Interviewer: “Oh, fair enough.”
Well because you know here’s the general making all the decisions and this is basically his
lackey, carry my briefcase and crap. (22:05) So he had nothing else to do but harass us, there
was me, the general’s terp and his driver and we assumed he was crap for no reason. He’s like
“Oh, you know you need a haircut.” And I’m like– Right, right.
Interviewer: “We are at war.”
There are some people, no matter what you’re doing, that want to stick to military protocol like
it’s gonna be the end of the world if you don’t.
Interviewer: “Got it.”
I mean we’re talking about a guy– So like we’re in a town trying to take it over and stuff and he
would find some Iraqi out in town to like, press his camis and pay them like a couple bucks.
Interviewer: “Wow.”
�Rowland, Daniel
Yeah, this– Don’t get me started on it there’s just some people that are like, what? I mean we
were in MOP gear for like over a month, the– I forgot the actual acronym, the biological weapon
cause we were still “Oh he’s got a WMD.” You know so we had on this mop gear for over 30
days, no– I mean we were invading, no showers no– You know baby wipes became our friends.
So we were pretty nasty so like I didn’t get a haircut, really? But anyway that’s– He annoyed me
but that was about it.
Interviewer: “So when you were over in Iraq, other than the administrative work, you
know what did you do after the invasion?”
We sat around for– Cause the invasion was late March, early April and we were there till like the
beginning of July, end of June and we just sat there, that was it. I mean you’re not– I mean
because they’re still having to figure out what they’re gonna do with the country and we’re just
like– We’re hanging out and doing nothing, played lots of spades. (23:48)
Interviewer: “After that what happened, when did you leave?”
We got back on the ships– See they went over in December on the ships and then I, like I said, I
flew over mid deployment and then we had to take the ships back so that was fun, but I got on
the boat and took the longest shower of my life, maybe, but it was nice and then we got to float
home. Yeah, stopped in Lisbon on the way, that was fun.
Interviewer: “What ship were you on?”
The– Was it the Nassau? Yeah I think it was the Nassau, we had the Nassau, the Kearsarge, and I
forget the third ship in our little fleet but it was a hootenanny. Got to go through the Suez canal
and man the guns, hey we’re jarheads what else we got to do right?
Interviewer: “I’m assuming nothing tried to attack you.”
�Rowland, Daniel
No, that’s standard protocol when you’re going through the canals and the stuff is to man the
guns on the side. So whatever but got to go past the rocket gibraltar, that was fun looking, I guess
that you– There’s– I mean you know you’re Navy, all the little weird things like the shell back or
if you cross the equator and this, we got one for going through the city waters and ooh.
Interviewer: “So the military traditions where they kind of haze you and you get a little
reward afterwards.”
Not for that one, you just got it for going through the Suez and the Med, yeah I’ve heard of some
of the things they do and sea bats and all that, we’ll leave that for you to explain for the people to
hear.
Interviewer: “Shell backs a whole different beast.”
No you never heard of the– “Hey we got a sea bat under that container.” And then you go–
Never mind. (25:24)
Interviewer: “Yeah the old, the hazing techniques to make you go just waste your time.”
[overlapping chatter] Hundred yards of flight line I got.
Interviewer: “Go wait for the mail buey, that sort of thing.”
Hey, get me some blinker fluid. No? Okay, keys in the humvee.
Interviewer: “So the Navy was kind of messing with you guys a little bit.”
Well– But that was it though and man I tell you what the Navy cooks are actually pretty good, I
don’t know. Well compared to eating MREs for three months I guess anything was good.
Interviewer: “So after–”
�Rowland, Daniel
And so I get back and, you know that’s it for– So by then I’m married, got a kid on the way, and
I’m still on involuntary order so I’m like “Well, I should probably go.” Cause by this time I had
almost seven years and I’m like “Oh maybe I should go back to active duty.” and that took a year
cause recruiters suck.
Interviewer: “So where were you at for this year? Were you just–”
I was– No I was still recalled reservist back at my old job at Camp Lejeune and that’s when I got
my Navy achievement medal and all the other crap for a job I didn’t even know what I did and
they give them out like candy so like “Oh hey everybody gets one” unless you’re infantry, then
you don’t get anything. So then I try to come back in, takes them a year, I tried going officer too,
that didn’t pan out I don’t know. So apparently– Well whatever, so then I go back then they let
me back in in June of 2004 and I tried going back in as an intelligence analyst because I’m like
I’ve already got the clearance. (26:57) I mean I kinda needed high clearance for my old job and
then I figured– They made me retake the ASVAB and scored perfect and I’m like “Oh okay, I
can get in, this is no problem.” They’re like “Oh, we want you back in but only as infantry.” I’m
like “What?” “It’s the only thing we have open.” So of course I took it cause I got a kid on the
way, I’m marrying, and I gotta provide for my family and then I come to find out later there was
still like openings for the intelligence. Apparently recruiters even treat Marines like 17 year olds
and just meet their quotas, I don’t know but I’m still a little bitter about that.
Interviewer: “That’s understandable. So when–”
I had two college degrees and a 99 on the ASVAB and a top secret clearance, I was like “Why
couldn’t I get the job?” Anyway.
Interviewer: “That is a bit on the ridiculous side.”
So I guess I went in as one of the smaller grunts, that was– Yeah June of 2004, I got to my unit
in August of 2004 2nd Battalion, 6th Marines, 2nd Marine division blah blah and then they stuck
�Rowland, Daniel
me in weapons company. I was going to become an anti armor assault man, 0352 basically we
shoot rockets at tank and at that time they told me “Oh they just got rid of on the job training.”
Which means you could like work work with a unit for six months and get your new job
designation. “So you have to go back to training.” So I’m a sergeant with seven years in and they
sent me to basically back to combat training with a fricken 18 and 18 year old privates.
Interviewer: “That sounds fun.”
Oh it was hootenanny, it wasn’t really that bad there were two corporals over there too and the
instructors pretty much let us like not do all the dumb crap.
Interviewer: “They knew you knew essentially.”
Well considering I outanked most of my instructors I was like, okay you know– Like you know
like no cell phones or no smoking for the privates but then we go hang out with the instructors
behind the buildings and call our wives and smoke cigarettes cause if it wasn’t anything
essential, like especially the first three weeks were basically a rehash of combat training and then
the last four weeks you break up into your specific jobs, they train all the infantry there. (29:05)
So we just went to class and then graduated and went back to our units, it was still fun though,
and that’s when I found out I lost all my time in grade as a sergeant. Yeah I was promoted June
2003 to sergeant, was it? No, 2002 and then when I came back to active duty they reset my date
of rank, which being in the military one of the important parts of getting promoted was time in
grade. So you have to be a certain rank so long before you’re even eligible for the next rank, so I
lost like two and half years' time in grade, that was fun.
Interviewer: “And you couldn’t fight that at all?”
No, even though I was involuntarily activated, that comes in later, this is a big whine fest I think.
So I graduate in October ‘04, go to my unit and then the next– What was it? Yeah it was the next
October, October ‘05 but in that time they send me to sergeants course, some counter terroism
course, all these frickin courses cause apparently they thought I was smart or something, and
�Rowland, Daniel
then October ‘05 we head over to Fallujah, Iraq this was after the push through I think it was
Phantom Fury is what is was called. We’re the first unit to take over the area after the push
through, and at the time I’m like “Oh, I’m gonna be a platoon sergeant.” Because you know I’m
a sergeant and then they’re like “Nope, you’re going to headquarters company.” “What?” And
then they stick me in an entry control point in the middle of Fallujah, basically the city was– I
don’t want to say quarantined or blockade, but to get in the city you had to go through one of six
checkpoints, you know they had to search you, we had a little vehicle. All these, you know kind
of like the TSA but you know not as stupid, so I got stuck there for the deployment. Nothing too
exciting, I had a little satellite outpost where we did commercial traffic, semis and crap, we got
into a fire fight a couple of times because we’re like right on the main highway and right behind
us was like this big gully, I don’t even know. So somebody could just like walk into the city
through it if they were somewhat evasive and they’d walk up and take pot shots at us and that
was not as exciting as it sounds cause you’re on– We did 24 on, 24 off so you’d be bored most of
the time “Ooh search the– Search the big truck full of stones!” We had the long like rebars we
had to stick in their and we’re looking for bombs or something, I don’t know, and then pretty
quiet till March of ‘06. (31:37) Then our main checkpoint got blown up from one of those orange
dump trucks, google it you’ll see them, and somebody decided to blow it up and we only lost one
Marine and a couple of Iraqi guys because we had the Iraqi army and police working with us too,
about 30 wounded because the concrete barriers they like to use like to turn into microscopic
shrapnel, once you have you know a couple thousands of pounds of explosives go off next to it.
So then a couple days all the guys would have the fragments in them from the explosion, started
becoming sick their body was rejecting it, but since I was at the little satellite outposts I went
over– Cause the explosion was– So we were 600 yards from them and it knocked me on my ass,
that’s how big the explosion was and then I got to go over there with some of the Iraqi guys and
it was just like the little building, everything was just knocked the hell down but most of the–
And I don’t– Did they over teach you OPSEC? I assume they teach you OPSEC when you’re in,
you know like if you travel change your routes and stuff. Well our brilliant bosses every day at
the same time was the changeover, when the one team would come out and go off so after six
months of doing the same thing every day they knew when to hit us. So needless to say it was
kind of– And I pointed this out months before but you know I was just an E5 what did I know?
It’s not like seven years being in a security office going to, you know, the naval criminal
�Rowland, Daniel
investigation security managers course, the DSS security managers course, I got certificates a
mile long but no, I didn’t know nothing. Being a security manager for the invasion for a general,
no what did I know cause– I’m gonna try, you know those clover leaves when you get on the
highway, they like wrap around, we were like right in the middle of one so when somebody hits
the on ramp they can look down and it was just– This is something a frickin moron should be
able to look at and be like “That doesn’t seem that secure with the on ramp open.” So whatever,
so I started building an animosity towards officers, more so after that because you know when
they don’t listen it’s like “Really?” But anyways that’s besides the point, and that was the first
time I lost somebody under my command so– Cause technically I was second in charge of that
unit, I had an E7 and then me and then we had like 15 guys under us or whatever so still a little
haunted by that, anyway [unintelligible]
Interviewer: “So stepping back a little bit when it comes to working with the Iraqi police
and–”
Yeah they were pretty good, nothing weird about them just dudes trying to make a living.
Interviewer: “You didn’t worry at all that they might be with any of these groups?” (34:28)
Not at that time, cause we’re talking a couple years after– They, I guess the local government
they had a pretty good way of vetting you know I mean I never had a problem with them. Hell
usually when we closed down the post we’d go– Cause we had a little trailer and these guys, I
don’t know if you ever saw the big shipping containers, they would basically– They built bunk
beds and stuff in there for them because those guys were out there for like a month, they
weren’t– Like after 24 hours we go back to our little base, have our nice little beds and these
poor guys are out there but we’d go in there and we’d smoke hookahs with them and have some
tea, play cards, whatever you know just dudes. They were some– Well let’s just say they loved
cellphones too because they would show some nasty– They’re just red blooded dudes like
anybody else man, they were just trying to make a living to support their families. So for the
most part, no I never had to worry about them, plus yeah I’d also gone through an Arabic course
�Rowland, Daniel
I can even speak the conversational toddler so that was fun too. That’s the way I look at it, I was
never that great at it.
Interviewer: “Did any of the guys under your command have any issues with them like
pick fights with them or anything?”
No, I think initially some guys were worried but after a month or two you find out they’re just
regular guys and there’s nothing bad about them. Which is I guess counterintuitive from what
people have been told but like a lot of guys that would even put the bombs on the side of the road
it’s not like they were fundamentalist terrorists, someone’s like “Hey, here’s a couple hundred
dollars go put this–” But this is the point where they were stop setting them off themselves, it
was the ones where, well the full term would be victim actuated improvised explosive devices,
pretty much like imagine a pressure plate and when you drove over it it would complete the
circuit and blow up. So some of these guys would go and just set them up and the ones that we
would caught they’re not terrorist or anything they’re just like “Oh hey someone paid me X
amount of dollars to do this.” (36:22)
Interviewer: “And what would– Did you ever catch any of these guys yourself?”
Well I mean we didn’t other like units, we were pretty stationary so we weren’t even mobile but
from what I heard a lot of the ones they did catch in the act they were just doing it cause they
were paid, because you know that– During that period of time you know that was before the full
rebuilding effort, it was hard man I could imagine a guy “Hey I need to get food for my family.”
Here a dude “Here’s some money man go put this over by the road.” “Okay.” So it’s– I wish it
was as clean cut as that, oh here’s a bad guy shoot him, but is he a bad guy or just someone down
on his luck, I don’t know. It’s very– It’s always a lot more complicated than people make it out
to be in the media, but anyway but at the end of that then we came home in April of ‘06 and we
did what Marines do, you know run a lot, train a lot, and get ready to go back over the next year
so then we went back in October– I’m sorry April of ‘07. That was the standard fair, go for
seven, eight months, come home for eight or nine and then go back over but eight or nine at
�Rowland, Daniel
home wasn’t– You weren’t home, we had to go to California for a month or two, then we had to
go to Virginia, all this training, go in the field every other week it seemed like, train train train.
Interviewer: “Now going back to the orange dump truck, did you guys– Did that at least
spark some change?”
Not really.
Interviewer: “Like did you guys move the security point at that point, better off site?”
No they had it rebuilt within 24 hours, they closed the on ramp, that was it. We were gone within
a month so nobody seemed to care.
Interviewer: “Okay, and–”
The prevailing attitude is if you’re a lower rank you’re expendable, I mean that’s the– (38:08)
Let’s call it what it is, your job is to die for the cause and if you do they’ll just “Hey, we got guys
back at the base we’ll just fill in the roster.” Cause that’s all they did, when everybody got his I
think four or five of us out of 30 people between the two crews, like three or four of us stayed
out there and they just replaced them with a bunch of other dudes, it was like we didn’t miss a
beat, you know can’t stop operations man, mission accomplishment and all that crap. So yeah
they closed down the ramp, engineers rebuilt the place in like a couple of hours and hey we’re up
and running again. Military efficiency, whooo! I mean that’s just the way it works man, which I
understand but then it seems like the lack of– I understand that you have to do what you have to
do, I get that but then it seems like even afterwards when you do have time to breathe, no one
else really seems to give a crap, is that? Now obviously in old school conventional wars when
you had to push through, push through yeah you didn’t have time and I get that but like what we
were doing, out of seven months you know six and a half of it was pretty damn boring. So
needless to say we– You know but there’s always downtime especially when we’re home within
a month it’s like, okay thanks for not giving a shit.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So, you went home, you did your year of training.”
Yeah and then we went back, this time I actually was a platoon sergeant and I got my own 24
guys, six we were a mobile assault platoon, five gun trucks in a high back, basically a pickup
truck with big walls and we got to travel around and try to find interesting people and shoot
them. So that was a hoot but things are really quieted down by that compared to the last time, I
think the first time I was in Fallujah everything was blowing up and there were roadside bombs
like every five feet it seemed like but the second time it was actually pretty quiet.
Interviewer: “Were you again near Fallujah?”
We were in the same exact spot.
Interviewer: “Same on ramp and everything?” (40:10)
Well no that was entry control point, this time I was actually with the weapons company with an
actual mobile assault platoon but I mean we were on the same forward operating base, some of
us were sleeping in the same beds we were a year before. We were exactly back, the only
difference was the first time we were there the city was like divided up into three areas and all
these different units had a different area of responsibility. When we went back we had the whole
city to ourselves, it had calmed down that much, so we’re like “Okay” and for the most part, like
I think the first time we were there we lost ten or 12 guys maybe, there was actually a sniper out
there in January too when we were there, he killed a couple guys, mostly Iraqi police, Iraqi army.
I think we lost a couple guys and so we had– So we lost about ten to 15 guys and I think we had
about 20 wounded, the second time we were there I think we lost two, maybe three, but one of
them was a– We were there like not even a week and some engineer that had been attached to
our unit, new guy, went to a porta chuter and offed himself.
Interviewer: “Jeez.”
�Rowland, Daniel
Not– And then another one some dude was driving down the road really fast and his humvee hit
a dune and the guy got thrown out the back and killed, so two of our KIAs were through
accidents or self-inflicted injuries. So I guess you don’t count those when you’re talking killed in
action which is normally enemies but this time no.
Interviewer: “I mean it’s still people dying.”
I understand the sympathy from regular but when you’re in that scenario it’s like– Well one died
cause they were stupid like don’t speed in your humvee down the road, you know so he was a
casualty of stupid and the other was, you know I guess he got there and he couldn’t hack it, we
had only been there a week. So is it sad? Yes but can I feel sympathy towards him? Not really, I
mean if you don’t want to go I understand that but like we had guys that were more creative, they
were like self inflicting injuries before we left like dropping weights on their feet and breaking
their feet. Oh that’s fine, then you get charged for malingering but still you don’t have to go.
Interviewer: “I mean–” (42:22)
I’m just saying if you don’t want to go to Iraq there’s things you can do before we even leave
where you’re not offing yourself, I’m just saying callous but when you’ve been over the multiple
times and you’ve seen your friends die from enemy action and crap, it’s hard to feel sympathy
for other people, like you knew what you were getting into when you signed up especially in
2007, 2008 I mean we’d already been at war for like six, seven years it’s like if you signed the
dotted line and didn’t think you were going why’d you sing up? It’s not like they were drafted it
was still all volunteer force, it sounds cold but given the circumstances you probably know what
you’re getting into, and besides he was like a– He was a motor team mechanic or an engineer it’s
not like they ever left the base, again not trying to be a dick but you know from my perspective
it’s like oh I gotta go out into town two, three times a day and potentially get shot at and you’re
sitting here, you know on the base really not doing anything, and by then we had a nice chow
hall, I mean like salad bar, sandwich bar nice even brought in the guys from Indy to work it for
us, it was pretty swank.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So when you were going out and, you know as you said it, searching for
interesting people to meet and shoot did you have a lot of action?”
Not as much as one would think but it seemed the other units–Or the other platoons always got
the fun stuff, hell it was our first week, we got there and then we ripped with the unit we were
replacing which is like ride along, riding along, basically like they go out and then like your
leaders will ride with them and then you’ll slowly phase in your guys and replace theirs. I think it
was about the second week we’re driving down the road and we get called to go to an incident
and somebody had been driving on the road, some idiot and I use these terms with endearment,
had an accident in the convoy and wandered off onto a dirt road and gotten belly shotted. By this
time the insurgent tactics had moved to burying IEDs in the road so, you know general protocol
was don’t drive down dirt roads. Well somebody did and belly shotted a humvee and we got to
go clean it up.
Interviewer: “By that you mean they drove over it and the bomb went off under?” (44:47)
Yeah the– If I was– Me standing in the blast like my head stuck up, I don’t know if they buried it
that deep or it was the explosion cause I mean I don’t even know what ammunition they used we
were just there for clean up. So most time you think the 155 shells or whatever, you know where
the charge could blow up but this could’ve been one the blew up and down and made the hole
deeper, I don’t know, but yeah we got to pick up a couple guys in ziploc bags, take them to the
main base morgue, and I think half of our guys were like new, so we kind of like left them over
the road while we collected things and them brought them back but like it was– It was just
sloppy, it always seemed– Cause as a mobile assault platoon we were more– We were too fast
for like them to just sit down and ambushes, that’d be more for like the foot patrols. We were
more reactionary so we always showed up when things were going on or just finished that was
kind of our job, or to project a military presence.
Interviewer: “Basically you would go around.”
�Rowland, Daniel
Is that the correct term that they use, or projecting force, I don’t know. So and then another time,
this one’s funny, we had a– There was a big intersection of Fallujah and the Iraqi police, I don’t
even like know stoplights, they made like this little plywood– I’m trying to think of what you–
You know just imagine like a little plywood like tool booth if you would, a little bigger with a
roof on it and surrounded by sandbags and you know they’re out there directing traffic or
whatever and somebody takes– I guess sidestep, our commander, the battalion commander, they
basically more effectively cinched off the city to prevent you know ammunition and bombs
coming in. So– And it worked because eventually the insurgents in the city started making their
own, it was some yellow powder I don’t remember, but anyway this little bongo truck– It looks
like a roller skate, just google bongo truck and you’ll see they’re ridiculously small, this thing
was loaded with barrels of this explosive and he’s rolling down the road, runs into this Iraqi
police post and detonates. Now the one thing apparently insurgents can’t do is make their own
explosives, so the stuff in the cab went off, nothing else did. So he hits this little post of these
guys, I think one dude ended up breaking his leg just from the force of the impact but that was it.
(47:23) We get called up and we gotta cordon off the area and secure it, cause you know it’s still
explosive, so we’re just sitting there looking at this little blue bongo truck and inside the cab it’s
just messy because the guy managed to blow himself up and it’s just, you know guts and gore
over the– All over the windows and of course we found it hilarious, it’s like if you’re gonna die
for the cause fine but you know i expect you want to take more than just yourself with you. Of
course the downside is all this stuff spilled over the road, we had to wait for explosives ordnance
guys to come out and clean it up and I think we spent like 12 hours out there it was so boring.
One time like a dog runs by and runs away with a guy’s hand and yeah go ahead and laugh it
was– Now at this point you’re in country a few months, you’re just bored, you’re just laughing
so hard cause they open the door to try to, you know check the detonation device and all that
other stuff and it’s– So yeah we had fun too.
Interviewer: “Were you still on pretty good terms with the Iraqi police and military
there?”
Yeah I mean they were– Well I mean the police are from the area, the Iraqi army would normally
be from a different part of the country cause I guess you’d look at it like– If you think back to the
�Rowland, Daniel
Civil War they’d have like, you know the Michigan whatever unit, they’re all from the same
town wherever, and that’s the way the Iraqi army was. So– And they would bring in guys from a
different part of the country because they didn’t know anyone locally but the Iraqi police were
local. Yeah they were pretty good guys, no problems there I mean–
Interviewer: “What about the civilians?”
You know what they’re just people trying to live their lives man, for the most part they just did
what they did and we just went around. I mean it comes to this, if you weren’t dicks to them or
you weren’t, you know if you weren’t overly– If you just treat them like people you got along
fine, you know there’s a lot of– I’m sure we’ve all heard stories of the military that were over
there and like being over dickish, I don’t know if it was just because the Middle Easterners in
general were dehumanized or because they were just– I mean I don’t know but no they were just
regular people. Hell we would normally stop for– Grab lunch from a little place down on– I
mean we name the streets after like– I mean you can’t pronounce Iraqi but like north to south–
Yeah north to south had female names and east to west had male names but like the main drag
was called [sounds like “Frayen”] and there’s a little guy running a kebab shop there and we’d
pop in and get some lunch every couple of days whenever we’re around. (50:03) He was a nice
guy, give him money, we get food and it was pretty good food, jeez wonder if there’s any good
kebab shops around here, anyway– Hey man.
Interviewer: “Now you’ve got me wanting kebabs.”
I know right cause, you know what cause the stuff was fresh like right next door was an actual
butcher’s shop. I mean all our stuff is processed as hell, and here you are, you know you pull up
to the kebab shop, you hear the cows and goats mooing next door like okay I guess it’s fresh.
Interviewer: “So you didn’t ever really worry that one of these guys is gonna attack you or
anything?”
�Rowland, Daniel
It comes down to two mindsets, you can either– If you’re gonna worry about it you’re gonna
worry all the time and you’re just gonna go crazy or you’re gonna be so hyper tense all the time
you’ll snap, or you’re just like if it happens it happens, you know if you’re comfortable in your
training– I mean they call it muscle memory when you do something enough but it also applies
to other things like if you hear a gunshot or you hear an explosion you should instinctively know
how to react and if you trust that training, then you just don’t worry about it. I mean you’re
worried but you’re not– You know, otherwise you’re that paranoid guy who thinks the FBI is
listening to his thoughts through the, you know dentures in his mouth and that’s not a good way
to go or you’re– It’s gonna be a long ass seven months, he just eventually if it happens it
happens.
Interviewer: “Were you guys ever ambushed?”
Directly no, I mean we had a couple IEDs once, nothing huge like I hit one and blew out the tire
I think was unconscious a couple minutes but by then we had the new humvees like the doors
were like thicker and all this crap. So it like scratched the paint cause it was– Because it was
where we were driving on the main street and we would like go down to one end of the city and
come back, it really wasn’t that big but we went down and by the time we came back apparently
somebody put it there. (52:00) I mean it wasn’t like hey cause we drove and then we turned
around and came back driving the same path that we did and then drove over it and it blew. So
it’s like somebody– It’s like when you’re watching T.V and somebody throws out those little
spike strips that the cops do, that’s how quick he must have done it because it was right next to
an open field. So the guy must have sprinted out– After we drove by the first time must have
sprinted out, dropped it, ran back, I don’t know it was weird.
Interviewer: “And no one got injured in that cause of the–”
No, we blew like two or three tires on the humvee but we just pulled into one of our little bases,
swapped them out, and on our way again. Nice and quick, nice and painless, that deployment
was actually pretty laid back except for, you know stupid lieutenants but, you know. Oh my
lieutenant was an idiot, oh I know I have to explain it.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “Yeah– I mean you don’t have to but–”
He’s the kind of guy– Like we go out and do two or three patrols a day, and he would “Okay”
show up 45 minutes early to our staging area and then he pulled out the map and he’d be
pointing “This is the route–” We would get objectives, like “Oh, we want you to check this spot,
this spot, this spot by the command– By the head shed.” And then he would map out all the
directions and we’re like “Why don’t we just go as long as we make all our checkpoint?” And he
started like “Oh let’s drive down this road, this road.” “Those are dirt roads.” You know hey
didn’t we first learn this lesson when we got in the country, and then– So I was the kind of guy I
would tell my lead truck guy like– Cause all of my vehicle commanders had been there before,
this like I said this is their second time in Fallujah and I’m like “Yeah just as long as we’re
making the checkpoints drive however you want to get there.” That created a lot of tension
between me and the lieutenant, I didn’t give a crap because I don’t want to get belly shotted. We
saw how this works, so screw him, and he was one of the pretentious assholes, pardon my
language.
Interviewer: “Did he try to get back at you for this?” (53:57)
Oh yeah I mean they always do that, you know you get in trouble for– I don’t know about this,
you get in trouble or you do something they don’t agree with but it’s not against the rules so then
they make up some shit to get back at you later. I mean nothing bad like I didn’t get a bad fitness
report or anything but yeah he was one of those guys. He graduated from one of those prestigious
schools and he didn’t– Whatever, I don’t care, he was a dick. So he– Yeah that created a lot of
crap between me and him but I didn’t care, all my guys made it home, I mean I think the worst
thing to happen to one of our guys is he got appendicitis, whoop-dee-doo, but then you always
have the commanders and like we had a 1st sergeant that was really bored. I love this rule, so we
lived in this old– It’s called Camp Baharia, it was an old bath party luxury resort it had like man
made lakes in it and stuff. Apparently Saddam used to have like race boat– Or speed boat races
and crap so all these little huts and stuff and you know after the war all the Iraqi siblings came
and like stole it all like the plumbing, the windows, all this crap. So we just have these shells of
�Rowland, Daniel
buildings and they have the porta crappers across the road from where we live and our 1st
sergeant’s like “Don’t leave your little house unless you’re at least in PT gear!” So one day one
of my guys he woke up, goes to the bathroom, he's just in his shorts, and he got a page 11 for
doing that.
Interviewer: “Page 11 is?”
Basically a reprimand in your file, so yeah cause he woke up and had to pee he got in trouble for
not putting a shirt on to go across the street in the middle of summer, in 130 degree weather,
yeah I know right.
Interviewer: “Seems legit.”
These are people that, again goes back to the kind of person, I got– Cause everything we did was
at a platoon level or lower so the company staff, they got really bored and they would do stuff
like enforce stupid ass rules. Alright maybe not– It– Whatever I think they’re stupid “Hey we’re
in a war zone! Don’t forget to put your shirt on.” Cause you gotta go to the bathroom (56:15)
Interviewer: “So pretty much nothing really that eventful happened at that point.”
Nothing, nothing exciting, or at least not to us I mean other of our platoons they’ll get into
firefights. I guess one time they were driving– One guy– One unit was driving down a road and
they have a– Fallujah’s got like a little industrial section in the southeast like all warehouses and
stuff, they were driving down there some guys come out of a building wearing suicide vests and
they were looking at each other and then our guys just turned their guns and started shooting at
them, see we missed all the fun stuff, I don’t know.
Interviewer: “That’s–”
Alright it’s not fun in general but when you’re in an armored vehicle and somebody’s shooting at
you with AK-47s and is still far enough where the suicide vests won’t actually do anyhting and
�Rowland, Daniel
all you have to do is rotate your 50 caliber machine gun down the alley and fire. I mean 50
caliber bullets are pretty– They’re lethal for like, you know small armored vehicles let alone
people, there’s not much left of you. So you always hear those stories and you’re like “Why
wasn’t I there?”
Interviewer: “So when did you leave?”
We left October of ‘07, got back and then that was pretty much the highlight of my career. I
reenlisted a couple months later and my choices were I could stay with the unit and get a $20,000
bonus or I could pick my own duty station. Well my dumbass picked the– My own duty station
cause who needs 20 grand? Well also the mentality of I’ve been over three times and managed to
still be alive, I don’t want to push my luck.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
Plus at that point my son was about four or five and I basically missed half his life, like when we
got back my third time I went to pick him up and he was crying because he didn’t know who the
hell I was, that’s depressing. (58:07) So I’m like “Yeah I’ll stay stateside for a while.” And then
I ended up being– Where the hell was it? Camp Johnson which is kind of a weird cyclical thing,
that was the base I went to originally to learn to be an administrative clerk.
Interviewer: “Where was that at?”
It’s like right next to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, there’s like Camp Lejeune and then
there’s Camp Johnson, Camp Geiger, the air station. Camp Geiger is where they train the
infantry, Camp Johnson’s where they teach the mechanics, the administrative clerks, the
financial clerks, and the box kickers– Warehouse guys, their school’s two week it’s like “Why
are you even here?” So I basically ended back up where I started and the only jobs there for
grunts were sergeant of the guard, basically before a Marine goes into job training if there’s not a
class starting they stick them in a barracks and make them little crap jobs like, you know like
“Oh hey go help the maintenance guys.” Or go to– Well we got 40 guys to stand around and tell
�Rowland, Daniel
the Marines their shirts are tucked in, it was pretty mindless but I was fine with that because I
didn’t– I wanted mindless I wanted to be home and, pretty much not that exciting, I just sat
around with a bunch of other– Of course the problem was is the mentality, there were like seven
of us there, there were guys from 1st Battalion 6th Marines, 3rd Battalion and me and we’d all–
We’d actually all been in Iraq together, all of our units around, so our mentality was different
than a bunch of guys learning to be, you know accountants. So needless to say there were
multiple classes, though my first year there was probably my greatest year in the Marine Corps.
My immediate– My commanding officer was a guy I had served with during the invasion, so
again back to the small world. So yeah I got to basically get away with murder and I’m not
saying I did anything wrong but we had pretty lax guidelines at this point. When guys you had
served with in combat are your bosses, but it was all– Our sergeant major was about the top
enlisted guy, was actually with 3-6, he was like 5”1, his actual last name was Meanie, he was
single and he rode a Harley. Yes, everything you can imagine, he would have like an NCO call
for all the corporals and sergeants and he would be like “Well first two kegs are on me.” You
know the kind of senior enlisted guy that you only hear of in like fantasies and like I think he
was within six months. We were at a physical training thing and some 1st sergeant pissed him off
so he laid him out. (1:00:52)
Interviewer: “Like hit him?”
Yeah, from what I hear, and then he got transferred to a deploying unit which I think in hindsight
is what he wanted, I mean he was those kind of guy he could– You could like just drop him off
in Iraq and he would live there because he’s that kind of guy, but yeah but once those guys
started leaving then we got the pricks and that’s essentially where my career ended because I
couldn’t get promoted to staff sergeant. In the Marine Corps if you don’t make E6 by 13 you’re
out so.
Interviewer: “Okay so you were forcibly discharged.”
I was– I was unable to reenlist, but and then that goes back to when they took my two and half,
three years time in grade because as an infantry Marine you normally had to be in a sergeant for
�Rowland, Daniel
two or three years before you’re even eligible for promotion and by the time– So that was ‘04 so
I was, I think it was in the– In the Marine Corps you have Marines in the zone, below zone and
above zone so like they need a hundred dudes, they’ll put 200 guys in the zone, and that’s all
based on how long you’ve been and E5 and I think my first year I was in the below zone. That’s
basically like “Oh we can’t find enough good guys we’ll go down here and look.” So by the time
I was– And that just happened to coincide with the downsizing, they were gonna cut 20 or
30,000 Marines. They were promoting 400 Marines in my job a year, the year I was finally
eligible they cut it down to 90, it was like– So that along with my lost time in grade, you know I
should’ve been eligible for promotion two years earlier but now it was like, it was just a cluster
fudge and it kind of– Came to and end, which I was fine with because I was unable to reenlist
through no fault of my own, they gave me a nice severance package which was fun. I mean if
you’re gonna get out–
Interviewer: “You might as well get a severance from it right?”
Yeah but at the end of the day I, at that point I think I had 15 years in, a year and half later they
offered 15 year retirements.
Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.” (1:02:55)
Oh I know right, but anyway that was pretty much the bulk of it.
Interviewer: “So that was your last duty station then you separated? What’d you do
after?”
Farted around a while, I bought a house in Jacksonville where Camp Lejeune is and of course in
2010, guess what happened in 2008. I went with downsizing, the housing market was just– So I
couldn’t leave, it was so sad because living in a military town when you’re no longer in the
military is like ehhh. Bummed around a while and then I finished my first master’s degree, I’d
started when I was in Iraq the third time, I was bored and like “I’m going to school.” And then I
don’t know, stuff just happened, I got sick of living there and then you learn the whole “It’s who
�Rowland, Daniel
you know” adage, like I would try to apply for the jobs on base and never seem to get them, but
now it’s just me whining.
Interviewer: “I mean the transition from civilian– Or military to civilian is hard.”
Well in a military town like that the jobs paid crap because there’s always an overabundance of
workers, military spouses and stuff so they can pay you less money because if you quit or you
get fired they got ten more lined up in the back. So the jobs just sucks and any good jobs on base
it’s who you knew, like one time there was an educational counselor job open at the base
education center, you know I had a bachelor’s in counseling and a master’s in education, I didn’t
get an interview. Things like that you know and after that I just gave up and eventually “Well
let’s just pack it in and move.” So when my marriage started going south, my second one, I just
grabbed my kid and moved back here to Michigan and said “Hey let’s go back to school again.”
Cause they gave me an extra year free, G.I bill so nothing amazing.
Interviewer: “And that’s what you’re doing now?”
Yeah I’m going to school and running into people like you who ask me to do things like this,
which isn’t bad I guess, taking worthless English classes. (1:04:50)
Interviewer: “So nothing– The military didn’t really prepare you for the civilian life?”
I’m– In the general context they do not, for me it– I mean this is gonna sound egotistical again
but I didn’t need them too because I’d done four years and gotten out the first time, then I went
back in, then when I got out the next time, you know– I think the best thing that prepared me for
transition was still living in a military town and knowing how it is, and then by the time I get
back up here it’s a totally different community like for one you know people around here
actually like veterans. Well when you’re in a military town they’re like “Who cares you’re a
veteran get the hell out of my face.” So no they put you through like a three day class when you
get out “Here’s how you do a resume, this is how you do this, this is how–” You know there’s
no– They give you information that you can find on your own they don’t actually– It’s like
�Rowland, Daniel
coming back from combat, they’re like “hey don’t beat your family members.” You know they
don’t actually transition you from a combat scenario back to, you know peacetime or back to life
back in the states, it’s done really poorly.
Interviewer: “Was that hard for you?”
Not for me but for everyone cause I mean having the– I think it was easier for me because my
first time in Iraq I didn’t really see combat but I got enough of it to know what was going on so
when I went back the second time I knew what to expect plus having, you know the self– Cause
having like the degree in social work I already knew the generic psychological aspects, all this
and that so I could help prep myself but it was just one of those weird things where what I
already knew just happened to fit what I was going to do. It’s really weird how it all came
together but I could also see at the same time that for the regular guys coming back that it wasn’t
anything special, it wasn’t anything– It was one of those dichotomies it’s like you know come
back if you’re feeling sad or whatever talk to somebody but yet at that time if you went and like
saw a shrink your career is pretty much over. They’ve destigmatized a lot in the last five, ten
years but at that time they’re telling you to do but everybody else knew if you did you’re pretty
much done. (1:07:18) So, I don’t know, that’s where you see the transition of what it was like to
what it is and I know– To my understanding it’s still not that great now but yeah from military to
civilian life good luck with that. I mean they don’t really– They tell you a lot of things but they
don’t actually tell you– Help you– Having the information and using that information in a
meaningful manner are two different things, so it’s like you know you come back “Here, have a
book. Get the hell out.” You know it’s like it’s not the same thing as actually helping someone
transition. So once you get those discharge papers, you know go away, I don’t care anymore you
are no longer under my command, get the F out I don’t care. So now you’re out there alone
you’re like “Who do I go to?” You have to find out all this on your own, like nobody tells you
that there’s veterans service officers, that you can go to the American legion, the VFW, the DAV
and all these other accessible things. They may mention them in passing but they don’t actually
tell you what they do, what they can offer, all this other stuff but whatever hey that’s just the
military. Once you’re no longer able to die for your country they don’t give a crap.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So are you– Would you recommend the military to someone?”
It depends on the person, what you want and what you’re willing to do.
Interviewer: “How would you feel about your son joining the military?”
I’d tell him to join the Air Force.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
If he joined the Marine Corps I’d smack him upside the head, like I was stupid you don’t need to
be stupid, or if you could do it in a capacity which you can maximize your benefits but minimize
your risks, I mean again that sounds kind of selfish or something but at the end of the day, you
know I don’t want my kid signing up and going off to die, I mean I don’t think anybody does,
but if he wants to join, get some job experience, some military expereince, and some money for
college well that’s great but if that’s all you want out of it– Like don’t join and enlist in the Army
as a soldier you know as an infantry. That’s the dumbest thing but some people like that and
again that’s why I’m saying it depends on the person. (1:09:30) If somebody’s all gung ho I want
to serve my nation and go to war well hot damn sign up, become infantry if that’s what you want
but some people– And it’s the aptitude as well, some people just they could be the smartest
person in the room but if they’re unable to listen to authority and keep their mouth shut, not a
good choice but that’s just me.
Interviewer: “Alright, that just about wraps us up, was there anything else you wanted to
say?”
No, I’m good.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RowlandD2291V
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Rowland, Daniel
Date
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2018-12
Title
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Rowland, Daniel (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Daniel Rowland was born in 1975 in Grand Rapids, Michigan and decided to enroll in the Marine Corps after his third semester in college. In 1995 Rowland attended boot camp in San Diego, California where he acted as the guide to recruits, After basic training, Rowland was sent to Camp Pendleton to complete Marine combat training. After completing Marine combat training, Rowland was sent to job training in North Carolina where he received training to become an administrative clerk. Rowland then spent three and a half years stationed in Hawaii at Camp Smith working as an administrative clerk. During this time, Rowland would be sent for occasional brief missions in South Korea. While he was stationed in Hawaii, Rowland also received his associate’s degree in business and bachelor’s degree in social work. In 1998 Rowland returned home and left active duty, joining the individual ready reserves where he did occasional active duty. One of these active-duty missions was a mission to go to North Carolina in 200. Due to the events of 9/11, this resulted in Rowland being involuntarily activated for two years during which he worked in a security manager’s office as an administrative clerk. In 2003 Rowland was deployed to Iraq as part of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade as the assistant security manager. After returning from Iraq to the United States by boat, Rowland decided to return to active duty as an infantryman in 2004. In 2005 Rowland’s unit was sent to Fallujah, Iraq working in headquarters company, and in 2006 Rowland came home for a year before being sent back to Fallujah, Iraq for a third time. Rowland returned home to the United States in 2007 and was stationed at Camp Johnson as a sergeant of the guard before being forcibly discharged and going on to return to school and resume civilian life.
Contributor
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Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56a752eec770d95aebdfa6cdf573c73d.mp4
a11f01f55a44e646019b8890a1b72961
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4c3d67192c3292d6623fa585edd7d75d.pdf
875dbf3c0124a97ae1aa92fad429734b
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Laurin Ramey
Interview Length: (3:06:03)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We're talking today with Laurin Ramsey of Mona Shores, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project. Okay now Laurin begin with some background on yourself to begin with where
and when were you born?
I was born March 20th of 1923 and my mother passed away when I was three years old and my
dad never remarried, and I was brought up in my younger years by a couple of housekeepers.
And then my oldest daughter- or my sister, I had a older brother by three years and my sister was
six years older than I. When she got old enough, she took over the management of the house and
my dad worked for a- a dairy, he was a milkman and my sister run the house until she was 18
years old and graduated from high school. And then she got a job with the General Telephone
Company and she met another employee and they got together, and they got an apartment and
she moved out. It was glad to get rid of the job of keeping house for everybody, well then, we
batched it, my dad and my brother and I.
(1:42)
Interviewer: Okay and where were you at this time?
We lived at 828 Dale Avenue in Muskegon.
Interviewer: Muskegon, Michigan, okay.
We lived a couple blocks away from the Highland Park Dairy where my dad worked.
Interviewer: Okay.
�And I went with my dad a lot, in other words it was nothing like it is now that, they didn't care
whether you went in the, but my dad was a route foreman and he had six routes that he took care
of and he had three horse routes and three truck routes. And I don't know whether it was in the
summertime where they delivered milk at night so whenever you wake up in the morning
because there was no refrigeration you had a fresh bottle of milk on your doorstep, but I would
go with him in the summertime when I was on vacation, summer vacation, school and he used to
pay me a dollar and half a week for going with him. So I- I had a lot of experience and meeting
people, and going around, I- I- I didn't have time to go out for football and all that kind of stuff.
My life was pretty much all work, work.
Interviewer: Right
(3:02)
And I had my household duties to do. I had to buy the groceries on Saturday but that a little
plush because then my dad would let me drive the… his car and so I would pick the grocery
store as far away as I possibly could so I could drive. About three blocks away was a AP store
that I could go to but I went way out in the Heights, it was a store that I had known about when I
was with my dad on the milk route and that's where I went, I met my wife in this grocery store
in- in the Heights and that was a long time ago.
Interviewer: Right.
Alright when the war broke out my brother was one of the first ones to be drafted, he was in thein the lottery and his- his number came up real quick. And he ended up in the South Pacific and
he ended up in the Fiji Islands and you ain’t gonna believe this but all he did was made ice cream
all the time he was in the Fijis. He had a summer job, job at the dairy where my dad worked, and
he made ice cream and he worked with a guy that was an ice cream maker and he learned how to
�make ice cream and all the flavors and all that. And that's- that's how he got involved in the ice
cream business.
(4:33)
Interviewer: Alright and- and so the military actually placed somebody where he had the
right skills, that's good- good for them.
That's what they interview you when you're inducted, they really a- really a background check,
they want to know what they got.
Interviewer: Right. Now for you, did you finish high school?
Oh yes, I graduated in 1941.
Interviewer: Okay.
In June and I worked at the dairy, I paid- got paid 15 cents an hour and when I- I got a work
permit- permit, you had to be 14 to get a work permit. I shoveled ice cream during my summer
vacations and 15 cents an hour. I would work ten hours a day on Sundays on some days, that was
holidays and stuff, and, in those days, I made pretty good money.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(5:28)
You know I'd work ten hours and I got a buck and a half.
Interviewer: Alright now before Pearl Harbor happened, were you paying much attention
to what was going on in the world in a war in Europe? That kind of thing?
Not- not really, I mean just what you read in the paper you know but I couldn't say that I was you
know really delved into it too- too much.
Interviewer: So, you weren’t really thinking about how we might get into a war or anything
else like that?
�No.
Interviewer: Okay so how did…yeah.
Oh, Pearl Harbor.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Of course, you know hit everybody real- real hard and- and sudden. And it was a real eye opener
and all we had was the radio, you know, and the paper and it was a shock.
Interviewer: How did you hear about it?
On the radio.
Interviewer: On the radio, okay.
(6:14)
Yeah, and that's how I- I heard about it, but my brother was drafted very quickly after that.
Interviewer: Okay.
In other words, I think Roosevelt declared war on January 14th or something it was...
Interviewer: Well probably December 14th [actually Dec. 11] or before that cause
December 7th, ‘41 is Pearl Harbor and so we’re at war.
Yeah, but it was in January of ‘42 that he actually declared….
Interviewer: Legal war, okay.
On Germany and Japan but yeah, he- he was inducted in, it was called Camp Shanks in- in- in
Pennsylvania [actually New York] and he was shipped out real quick out to the South Pacific.
And as I say, he ended up in the Fiji Islands, but he never spoke about it much, but I guess a
person you know, it's something you don't mention but he did his duty.
(7:17)
Interviewer: Right.
�He did what he was told, you know you don't have no control of what- what’s gonna happen to
you. Well, he was at the time he was drafted he was working at the Central Paper Company as a,
in the lab. He was making routine tests of the paper making process throughout the plant and
when he was drafted, he got them to hire me to- to replace him. So I spent about maybe six
months doing the job that he had at the paper mill.
Interviewer: Right.
It's, making these lab tests and all that.
Interviewer: Now did you try to enlist yourself?
I tried to, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay tell that story.
Well, my dad wasn't in favor of it but I- I went down on my own to Kalamazoo, that's where the
induction center was, and I paid my own bus fare down there and I stayed overnight in a hotel.
But through the- the physical examination and so forth and they rejected me because they said I
had hypertension.
Interviewer: Okay, now what program were you trying to enter?
(8:41)
I was trying to get into the cadet program to be a pilot.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I wouldn't take nothing other than that. So, they sent me home. Soon after that I was drafted.
Interviewer: Okay.
And no problem just...
Interviewer: Alright now where did you report to first when you're drafted?
We went, we shipped out of here, there was about four railcar- passenger cars that went to Camp
�Grant, Illinois. And we all ended up- ended up there and that's where we got our shots and
another physical and we got all the tests, both written and oral and interviews and all that. We
got our uniforms and stuff.
Interviewer: Okay now this was…
To today I can't remember what the hell happened to our clothes. I don't know.
(9:40)
Interviewer: They're supposed to ship home probably, but who knows.
I don't know what happened to the clothes.
Interviewer: So- so, this is early 1943 now we're talking about. That's what's on your
service record anyways.
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Well, when we was ready to ship out, one of the corporals that was in the cadre of Camp Grant
took three or four of us and we, he said, “you're in the chemical warfare,” and he took us down to
it was called Camp Sibert, Alabama it was, we went by train and it was a wartime camp, tar
paper barracks, everything was tar paper, gravel roads, everything, but it was strictly wartime
deal. Everything was, we had barracks that probably held, oh maybe twenty-five guys and they
were up on cement blocks off the ground and no, just studs in the inside and paper… tar paper…
Interviewer: Tar paper.
…on the outside and the latrine was down the street and the mess hall was down the other way
and then they had like kind of an office deal where the Officers hung out and they run the place.
And they had a little supply area, but it was- it was- it was okay. There was a potbelly stove at
the end of each one and so forth but…
�(11:18)
Interviewer: Okay now were you getting basic training there or were they already
putting…
Basic training.
Interviewer: Okay.
We were, yeah and basically everything was pre-war, pre-world War, I mean prewar, it was old
stuff.
Interviewer: So, like World War I vintage equipment.
There you go, it was old stuff. We had leggings and shoes and we- we had, the rifles we had
were Enfield rifles, they were English Enfield rifles. Old, old stuff and everything was pretty old,
it was nothing that was new, everything was old. Well basically they emphasized Army courtesy,
discipline, and definitely physical conditioning.
Interviewer: Okay.
(12:18)
And the rest of it was very, it was old, and it they- they didn't have the stuff to tell- tell you, we
saw one M1 rifle that- that was the only one we’d seen.
Interviewer: Okay now what kind of physical shape were you in at that time?
I was about twenty years old or nineteen.
Interviewer: Yeah.
I was at peak condition.
Interviewer: Okay.
But we had guys from you know and they’re fat, and others out of condition you know, theythey never got off the sidewalk you know they come from New York City all over the country
�you know. But I- I had no problem at all, in fact basically what they do they try to com- have you
compete in other words I was in the Third Platoon of the company and they do that by what your
name is, in other words First Platoon is everything from A to probably D or E and then the
Second Company then, but I was a R, so I was in the Third. Well, they- they try to get you to
compete in other words which was the best, what's the best platoon. And so, it's always “I'm the
best platoon,” or “this is the best platoon.” So, it's always that competition and I could run ‘em in
the ground, I could run them in the ground. I had no problem at all, that was it, I mean I- the
officers would drop out before I- I mean I- I just enjoyed that, just out doing them, I had no
problem.
(13:55)
Interviewer: Okay what about with the discipline part were you…?
No problem there either but they weeded out the gold bricks and the screw-ups real quick, that
didn't take ‘em very long. And if you was a screw-up you was on train duty and- and that kind of
stuff. And they, you- you was brushed aside they- they want no part of you.
Interviewer: Okay.
But if you were just a gold brick, they took care of that too. They put you out there in the front
after hours, digging a hole up to your ears, you know. And- and- and it would be in way after
dark you're still digging you know.
Interviewer: Would they do things where it if one person screwed up, they punished the
whole unit or?
Sometimes.
(14:45)
Interviewer: Okay.
�Particularly on inspection, you always had a Saturday morning inspection and if you screwed up
or somebody did in the barracks you wouldn't get a weekend pass. So, they, there was a bunch of
self-discipline done, it wasn't all about the officers.
Interviewer: Right.
… and everything. But we had good officers and we had some we called shoe salesmen and I
would say there was probably about fifty/fifty.
Interviewer: Okay now how long did you stay at- at Camp Sibert.
Well, your ten weeks.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay just ten weeks.
But I told you that I had this puncture wound and they sent me a dispensary, they bandaged it up
and so forth and they give me a tetanus shot, I was allergic to tetanus I didn't know it.
(15:42)
Interviewer: At least to the shot yeah.
I ended up in the hospital, I- I couldn't lift my arms the next morning and it- it was terrible pain
and all they did was give me morphine and the doctors they paraded every doctor they had in the
place by me and they- they couldn't come up with what the answer was. Finally, one of them
worked it out and they gave me an antibiotic and I popped right out of it and I was back in the
ranks real quick but I missed a whole week.
Interviewer: Right, now you mentioned the prospect of getting weekend passes, I mean if
you got off base on a weekend what could you do?
Well at this Camp Sibert not much. I don't even remember that there was a town or if it was it
wasn't much because I don't remember ever going to the- to town or anything.
Interviewer: Right okay.
�But you could get off base I would say that, but I don't remember anything about ever getting off
base to a town or something.
(16:47)
Interviewer: Alright so to go back then to your main story. So, you're- you have the tetanus
shot reaction, you get over that, you rejoin your unit, and then what happens to you then
when the training ends, now what?
Well when the training ends, why they're all shipped out. Basically, the outfit goes to a- a- a
division or some unit where they get actually more training.
Interviewer: Right.
And it’s a different kind depending where you're shipped, I was told that the most of ‘em were
shift and ended up in Italy, but in my case, I was segregated out and I was the only one and I just
thought it was because I had missed a week of training and in the- in the hospital but that wasn't
the case at all. They gave me my orders and a bus ticket to Auburn College, and they put me on a
bus and I ended up at Auburn and I didn't know what was going on, I- I just followed orders to
go to Auburn until I- I got in. When I got to Auburn, why I was there for maybe ten days or so.
They kept trickling in guys from all over and when it got up to about maybe 15/ 20 guys they
shipped us to Nashville, to Vanderbilt University and then I come to the realization that I was in
ASTP.
(18:23)
Interviewer: Okay and what was that?
That was Army Specialized Training Program, a very controversial outfit I guess you'd call it. I
guess a lot of men at Pentagon agreed that it was good, and others didn't think it was good, it was
a loss of a lot of manpower that they needed.
�Interviewer: Right, now what was the purpose of the program?
Well, I only found this out by talking to a friend that was in a ASTP at the Tanglewood Senior
Center where I met, he was in an ASTP too, he had a whole book on it and his situation was
entirely different. He had to apply for it and take a- a intelligence- or a IQ test and all kinds of
things but he finally was accepted, but me I- I just, I don't know.
Interviewer: But what was the specialized training for? Where were- what were they gonna
send you to?
This is what the book written, and this is what I was a told is it was a prelude to Officers
Candidate School. In other words, you would go and if you could cut the mustard and- and get
everything, then you went to Officers Candidate School.
Interviewer: Okay.
And then yeah, the way they were doing it now I guess if you- you have some political friend or
your dad was the garbage collectors or maybe the city mayor of some town you they was in, you
go to Officers Candidate School but this is a different situation they was gonna take the cream
of- of the crop so to speak it.
(20:06)
Interviewer: But wasn't a lot of training for engineers specifically?
Yes engineering.
Interviewer: Right.
Our course was this and it was not my bag at all, I’m- I'm a businessperson. We had calculus,
chemistry, American history, English and physical conditioning.
Interviewer: Right, so a lot of its regular college courses.
�Definitely, they were taught by college professors and so forth. And if you couldn't cut the
mustard by then they booted you out real quick and I had a rough go of it, but I had a good
friend, his name was Whitey Seem [name unclear]. Smart dude, smart he was really what, he was
my tutor, and he- he was my- my godsend I guess you could say that helped me a lot. The
calculus was way, way over my head but I managed to stay in there and not until it was
dissolved, and we- we had probably about a year at- at Vanderbilt and it was good time, it was
good, and we marched to class and we had to stand reveille, and- and- and night, bed check, and
all that, it was, and we had a, I was an A- A company and there was another one was B company
and we had officers that run the show, first lieutenant was- was the head of the outfit that I was
in. Well anyway when it was dissolved, and it was very quick, it was just shhhs like this, you
know and it- it was like maybe in the middle of the week you know and all of a sudden, they
said, “you don't go to class today we're gonna do this,” and you know we didn't know enough,
they don't tell you nothing, you know.
(22:08)
Interviewer: Okay before we go any further with that, let's talk a little bit more of you
spending a better part of a year there. Did you have to spend all of your time sort of
studying? Or in your rooms or?
Well…
Interviewer: Doing things officially? Or did you get time off?
We- we have pretty much the weekends off. We had inspection and we passed inspection and
then we would get Saturday afternoon and Sunday off. And we could do pretty much what we
wanted to do, but if you could pretty much, if you was up in your studies and stuff but you
sometimes you’d spend your time studying and then you could go to the library and so forth and
�everything. But we had dances at the gym on Saturday night sometimes and they’d truck in, bus
in girls and they had a lot of Vanderbilt girls too and, but we had a good situation in that we got
girls from PBot- Peabody lady’s- woman's college. It was very close by; you could see it from
the campus of the Vanderbilt. And then there was one other one that was called Ward- WardBelmont Finishing School, woooo [laughter] those gals were… when they come to the dance,
they have about three chaperones. They really had ‘em on a short leash but you could get around
‘em and once you found out their name why you was in, you know you because they was only
about probably about maybe six/ eight blocks down the street you could go on Saturday andand- and you could go on and if you know who to ask for and you could- you could make a date
and if you did, you could make a date and they got out on Saturday afternoon too. And but that
was not too good, and they came with white gloves to their elbows, a hat, and a- a purse, and silk
stockings, and a real fancy dress you know and oh Christ, that was… well it was about probably
six/ eight blocks to the bus stop and there was a place where there was a watering hole for the
drinkers in the- in the group. It was called Patroni, and I had a date with one of them and I
arranged it prior you know, and I told her I’ll meet you on, when you- when you go to the bus
stop. And as soon as she sees you know, off comes the hat and off comes the gloves you know,
and off comes the socks you know, the silk stockings you know, and the purse and then we
would leave that stuff in the back room at this Patroni’s beer joint, tavern it was nice, and they
would let you put ‘em in their back room their stuff. And then we- I didn't have a lot of money
you know.
(25:23)
Interviewer: Yeah.
�A couple of bucks, but the town was crawling with G.I.s, they came in from being on bivouac
out in- in the outer part of Tennessee and the town would be crawling but they also on Saturday
had the Grand Ole Opry and that was a big deal too. And they had this guy his name was… what
was his name? He was a well-known country- country guy his name was… what the hell was
it… but his car was all designed up real fancy and if he was waiting at the bus stop you always
stop and piggy up, his name was what the hell was it?
Interviewer: Doesn’t make a, yeah.
Well, it's not important but he was a real nice guy.
(26:16)
Interviewer: Now when you were there, and you go into town and Nashville and that kind
of thing did you notice that it was a segregated society that the blacks were treated
differently from the whites or did that not even occur to you there?
We never saw any blacks.
Interviewer: Okay.
No, there wasn't a black in- in the ASTP.
Interviewer: Yeah, but I meant by, in- on the civilian population though when you're going
off base into town, that kind of thing.
(26:39)
No, no, on Saturday it was a big deal for the Grand Ole Opry and these people from the out areas
would come to town in an open truck like a big stake rack truck and they’d be all standing up in
the back of it you know and there’d be car loads of them. And then they would line up for to get
in for the doings at- at night and they would picnic on the sidewalk and they have spread out a- a
tablecloth and they always had a basket full of food, everything. And that was the way every
�Saturday was that way, so several blocks were just covered by people waiting to get into the
Grand Ole Opry, I never went but I- I looked inside to see what it looked like, and they had great
big round things like that that held the balcony up, you know. You ever got behind one of those
you’re never gonna see anything, it was an old, old building and everything, but it was the capital
of Tennessee.
(27:45)
Interviewer: Right.
So we'd go around the capitol building, and- and you couldn't get into this theater if you was
lucky you- you might get in and we’d go to the show or something but it was buy an ice-cream
cone or something you know and it was mostly that kind of a thing, it was no big deal.
Interviewer: Alright.
I shouldn't tell you this but the- the gals that were the gals from that were going to Vanderbilt
they were- they were had sorority houses all around and they always were asking us to buy
‘em… it was Coke and what- what do they put in a Coke? Rum.
Interviewer: Rum, yeah.
Yeah, and we could buy it but they- they- they couldn't and so they’d always ask, we'd have to
buy them rum, they could- they had a Coke machine in their place you know, and they had a lady
that run the show you know. But then they could, I’m drinking a Coke you know they spiked it
with its rum.
(29:00)
Interviewer: Right.
�And so they always would be after us to buy them- buy them a… so that's how we got
acquainted on it and they’d drop a line down from the window up, stick it for me, tie the bag on
it and, but…
Interviewer: Okay so not a- not a bad way on spend a better part…
I had a nice lady or girlfriend she was- she was a- a southern gal, real southern she was from
Mississippi, Sanford, Mississippi. Very nice gal and we got along real, real well in fact one,
every time it got at Christmastime they always shut down the school and everything and we went
on furlough and she had invited me down to meet her- her dad, her father he owned Sanford.
(29:51)
Interviewer: Okay.
The town was named after, Sanford, Mississippi. She wanted me to come down and meet him, I
said no, a Yankee down in that kind of a..shoot, I’d get shot. And no, no and so I didn't go but I
was invited, and she was a nice gal. She used to sneak out, we had a, the room that I was in had
the fire escape, we were on the third floor on the end of the deal and there was four of us in the
room. And but it had one window that accessed the fire escape and after bed check in, Christ you
couldn't get no sleep the damn activity going in and out, this way down. Well, I used it a few
times myself and what we would do is go over and get ‘em and they’d call out the window andand we’d go down to the stadium, the football stadium and we’d crawl up in a football stadium
and we- we’d sit up there, and neck and you know talk you know but is real nice.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And it was- it was not all, you know bad, bad you know.
Interviewer: True.
Army stuff, you know.
�Interviewer: Yeah, okay so now so let’s see you get sort of late in 1944 now or in the fall
some time that you shut down the program?
Yeah well, a bunch of us and this was quite a group we’re shipped to the 106th Infantry Division
in Terre Haute, Indiana.
Interviewer: Okay.
(31:28)
Up at the Camp Terre Haute, Indiana in Terre Haute, Indiana, Camp- Camp Atterbury.
Interviewer: Okay.
Camp Atterbury and I was put in a rifle platoon, 422nd Regiment in this 106th division. I didn't
last a week and all the guys that came from ASTP they jerked us all out, put us on KP and I spent
all the rest of the time I was at Camp Atterbury or Atterbury and KP. And that must have been
for three/ four weeks because I got one weekend pass and I got in to go to Indianapolis. I can
remember that, but after a while they jerked everybody out of the K- that was on KP that was a
ASTP or, and they ship us to Camp Crowder, Missouri that was in Joplin. Well, we didn't do
nothing there, we, they just put us in a barracks, it was a barracks two-story job had inside
plumbing and everything, we didn't have like it was in basic training and it was at one of the big
mess halls where you went through the- the chow line with a tray. And we didn't do nothing, we
just played baseball or whatever we could do you know and caroused around the camp you
know. And we went down met the wax down in the wax area and we didn't do anything, and it
was, that went on for, oh God it must have been almost a month. But they, all the time there was
more coming in all the time. And once they got everybody they wanted I guess they put us all on
a train and they shipped us down to Camp Rucker, Alabama and we all went into this 1153rd
Engineering, Combat Engineer Group and they’d split us all up, some went to the Treadway
�Bridge Company, someone to Line Company some went to Light Equipment Companies, I was
put into the headquarters company and I was supposed to be a driver messenger that was my
designation and I drove for a captain and he was the S-4 in the staff officers. These were, it was
run by a full colonel and he didn't like me. He, I think he knew that I was an ASTP guy and hehe figured I was a goof-off that you know I had hats off going for quite a while, but how he just
picked me out I don't know, but he did but I'll tell you a little bit more later. And he picked on
me I thought but it was alright, but I drove, they gave me an old beat-up staff car it was a halfton staff car, four-wheel drive and everything but they didn't teach or anything, you know there it
is. I- I said, “where- where do you check the oil?” “Lift the hood up,” you know so they didn’t
tell you nothing yeah. So, you just- you just drove it you know and the only thing they ever told
you was when- when we're on the highway, when we're going someplace don't go like this you
know, I mean speed up and slow down, speed up. Steady speed keep it- keep it closed up and
that was the only thing they ever told us but in order to be a- a good driver you had to be able to
read maps, you had to be, in other word to be good, in other words the officer could tell you, you
know we want to go someplace and they- they- they do the map reading and they tell you, you
know this is where you would want to go. But if you're a good one you do that and you tell them
where you’re gonna go and so that's what I was, I was a driver and that was only because when I
work for this dairy when I was shoveling ice cream, by moving up, I got to be a what they call a
special delivery driver with a truck that I went around when they had special deliveries to the
stores and places and I got 20 cents an hour instead of shoveling ice cream right I drove special
delivery, well that was in my resume for…
(36:16)
Interviewer: Okay.
�…the deal when I, in that I had drove this- this truck. And I used to drive my dad's milk truck too
but only when he may be down the block it was a bit and I’d drive up to him you know. So, I had
driven before and… now where the hell are we?
Interviewer: Well, how did you- you mentioned that the colonel didn't like you, how did
you, did you get along with the captain?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, the captain was great. He was a, I’ll tell you about him, his name was Captain
Jack his name was Jack Saunders he was a big land or a big contractor from Oklahoma I mean
he- he was big-time I mean we got to know each other real, I was like a son to him really I was.
And he was not militarily I know he- he- he- he’d waved to you, you know but only time he ever
showed any military things was when he had to, and so he was Captain Jack and he was- he was
really, really great but we had another one that was great too, but he came later out of the TD's,
he was a tank destroy outfit, but they destroyed, they abandoned that, they didn't get to have
anything tank destroyers, and he was a First Lieutenant, and he was a Mexican descent, and his
name was Hernandez and we called him Pancho, his name was Walter Hernandez. Burley guy
you wouldn't want to tangle with him at all and he- he was always looking for a fight. Well
anyway he was a nice guy too, well anyway this Captain- Captain Jack he was real nice guy and,
but this colonel had it in for me. I was in the headquarters company one just to show you how
picayune he was, I was sitting on a stool and he walked in and he saw my socks because my- my
pants must had been up a little bit because I was sitting on the stool. He saw my socks he came
over and he says, “you're out of uniform, you're them socks they don’t go with this uniform,
you’re supposed to…. blahblahblah.” You know about- about my socks, you know what the hell
is this about socks, but apparently I had the wrong kind of socks on and he chewed me out about
my- ‘bout the socks and they had to go get my right socks on. Well the next time he chewed me
�out was the, it was on a Saturday and he was reviewing the troops on the parade grounds and as
they passed the reviewing stand I always wore my helmet like kind of a cocked, it wasn't down, I
had it like this you know, he noticed that out of the whole damn outfit you know and he puts me,
so he picks me out and he gets back at- at when he can see me, and he says, “you wear your
helmet…” “Yes sir, yes sir,” you know but how the hell he picked me out of all those guys. But
I’ll tell you when I got back at him but that's down the road.
(39:38)
Interviewer: Okay.
But anyway, this Captain Jack was real good and I have to tell you this because one day we, he
wanted me to go to the Officers’ Quarters where they were housed and his wife and his little girl,
the daughter was there to visit him so I met his wife and his little girl. And his wife came over to
see me on a- on a QT she says, “I want you to take good care of Jack. I want you to see that you
take good and that he gets back to me.” Here I have a buck private you know, “I'll do my best
ma’am, I’ll- I’ll see that I do everything I can to get him back to you,” and I promised her that
you know you didn't make it. So, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
It's a sad but that's you know I made the promise, but I couldn't keep it.
Interviewer: Okay.
(40:38)
Because I had no control, you know I didn't know what the hell, you know where they were
sending. Well anyway that was a very sad situation but to make a long story short we get a lot of
training particularly that I was in, we'd go to different, this one river and I forget the name of it,
�Tallahassee or it was a pretty good-sized river, and they did a lot of bridge work. Where they
would bridge across this Tallahassee River.
Interviewer: Or the Chatta…
And they would prepare the approaches you know and- and do that whole thing for to- to cross
and that's what the training was to build those treadway bridges and then they built, the line
companies built Bailey bridges and- and they did mine dissection and all that kind of stuff and
then once in a while when they, we would be on bivouac in the field and that was once in a
while, the captain did let me get on a bulldozer or a- or a road grater or whatever you know, and
I'd try my hand at it you know, and it was fun you know but I was just screwing around but you
know he’d just tell you, “why don’t you let him try,” you know and so it- it was, I got into it, but
I- I took care of routine [unclear]real good you know I mean when we were out bivouac and
everything I've seen that he got a place to sleep and- and that he got his, he had a- a mattress kind
of a thing that he had but we didn't have. But I- I looked after him and when the, we- we had the,
along with marches and we had, we went to the rifle range and everything but the same old crap,
you know it was nothing that was modern. And we ended up in the training in that picture that I
showed you, that was just before we went to… where did I- oh yeah. That was just before we
shipped out to Fort Dix in New Jersey and that was, we waited there and we was there probably
for two weeks maybe waiting for a ship.
(43:06)
Interviewer: Okay and then when did you ship out, when do you leave the States?
The date?
Interviewer: Yeah roughly?
�That was on that… probably that deal there, that- that little what do you call it? But it was in- it
was in the we- we ended Europe in September so we must have looked, it took us, I don’t
remember whether it was nine days or thirteen that it took us to go across.
Interviewer: Alright I think the discharge papers said you got to Europe in October but
that’s…
No, it was in September, I think.
Interviewer: Okay you might have left September.
September and we landed in Liverpool.
Interviewer: Well what- what kind of ship were you?
I don't know, well it was a troop ship.
Interviewer: Okay.
(43:51)
Let me tell you this, the day we shipped out of Fort Dix, they put us on a bus and we- we went to
New York and we went down in the docks and we went in this warehouse on the docks, it was a
big warehouse and the buses drove in and everything and we unloaded in this warehouse and
they had a big opening and we walked across the docks and there was another big opening and
that other big opening was the ship we didn't get to see what it was, look like, or anything. It was
just a big black hole you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
That- that we walked across in and when we got in there all it was was a bunch of iron pipes
going curve the ceiling with a canvas between ‘em and they went up about maybe- maybe ten or
twelve of these canvas things that we use for a bed. And it was just solid like that, you know very
narrow space in between and that's where- where you were and there was very little room for you
�to do anything and the lighting was very, very poor you couldn't read or anything. And so you
pretty much was confined to just that canvas bunk that they have, but they had showers but you
had to use, it was salt water so you tried it but then y'all end up with all salt you know all over
you so that was out, but you did use them- use it to brush your teeth you know. And so, I always
selected a bunk that was up at the top because otherwise you had everybody climbing up on- on
your bunk, going up to the higher, the bunks. But it was the best thing about it was KP, oh yeah
that was the best. And we got two meals a day and your- your mealtime was like, you never
knew whether it was day or night or what it was, but anytime eight came around if that was your
time, that was your meal time, in other words whether it was 8:00 at night or whether it was 8:00
in the morning, that- that was it and so then you got out of the- the hole which is, that's where
you work, down in the hole of the ship and you went to the- the mess hall or the place they had
and you had up a tin tray or a metal tray and you went through the chow line and then you stood
up you- you didn't sit down. They had a- a little place about maybe a foot wide that you could set
your tray on, it was about waist high and then you just had enough to squeeze in and stand andand you had about fifteen/ twenty minutes to eat and then they kick you out but that was it. So,
the only time you got out of the- the hole down there was when you got on KP and they- they
used a lot of KPs because it was a twenty-four hour deal, and so if you got on KP that was good
because you got a chance to go out on deck and they had these hoppers that was on the rail of the
ship, the great big hoppers where you dumped the garbage and all the trash and anything and
then at night when they were, they would dump the trash at night. And so, but between the
entrance of the mess hall there that you could walk across the deck to this, these hoppers where
you dump the garbage. You get a chance you could look around a little bit you know, and you
could see, you know the other ships and…
�(48:04)
Interviewer: So, you were sailing in a convey?
Yeah, there was, it a big convoy, and you could see the destroyers rolling around you know,
they're jerking, dirting around and but you'd- you dilly-dally I'll tell you, you, it took you forever
to dump that garbage and then you got a breath of fresh air.
Interviewer: Yeah.
You know and it was good and so that was- that was really precious the- the fact that you could
get out, but you never got a chance to look up and see what the ship looked like or anything, youyou didn't know. And all you'd seen was just that little bit of that you’ve been between the mess
hall door and- and the garbage.
Interviewer: Now was the weather good when you went across?
Yeah, it was good.
Interviewer: Okay so people were not, not a lot of people were getting sick or?
Well we didn't know whether it was raining or you know what the deal was but when we got to
Liverpool it was nice.
(48:54)
Interviewer: Okay.
And we- we got off at Liverpool and the British I guess you'd call it Red Cross, or something
met us and they- they had cookies for us and of course they have tea but- but they put us on a- on
a train right away, a British train. You know how they work, you know they had the doors on the
side.
Interviewer: Right, compartments yeah.
�Compartments and deal and we shipped down to the southernmost part of England that was
down to Holborne, it was a, they call it a holiday city or town where they would spend vacations
and it was down on the- on the coast the…
Interviewer: Brighton or someplace like that?
It was called Torquay.
Interviewer: Okay.
(49:52)
Torquay and we ended up on, it was up on a hill kind of and it was a, probably a kind of an estate
thing, big house and a courtyard and a fence around it and we had these corrugated Quonset huts,
and the Officers and everything they lived in the big house and we ate in the big house, they had
the mess hall was in the big house. So, all there was was a, they had a latrine which was a
Quonset hut and then they had about four or five of these metal Quonset huts and we…
Interviewer: Now was it just your company there or was the whole group there?
Just- just the company.
Interviewer: Okay.
Just the headquarters company and then they- they began to outfit us, we got new trucks, I got a
new staff car, it was a quarter- three quarter ton, nice, new, brand new. And they gave us M1
carbines, steel helmets, and- and winter clothes and- and everything, we… the outfit… but I
didn't spend much time in Torquay.
Interviewer: Right.
I was gone ninety percent of the time. I, this captain that I was working with, he worked out of
London and he worked on Oxford Street, it used to be the… it was a department store.
(51:23)
�Interviewer: Yeah, tailors and things on Oxford Street or big stores.
It was a white building, what the hell was the name of it… see my memory is not good but…
Sparks and Marks.
Interviewer: Okay.
I think was the name of it and it was on the second floor. We went back there in- in nineteen fifthe wife and I went back on the 50th anniversary of the- of the war. And we- and when I showed
her where I used to work, and it was on the second, but it was then it was the pet department
[laughter], yeah. Well anyway I was there in London a lot and I stayed in a place, they- they had
what they called.
(telephone interruption)
They had this for transients and it was run by the Red Cross and I was there so much I had a
room that was there, it was- it was on Connaught Square it was like an older apartment house or
something. And but if you were a transit that's where you, you stayed and you ate and
everything. So that’s what I did, but this was a buzz bomb days and it, complete blackout you
know so at night you…
(telephone interruption) Interviewer: You could just answer it I suppose.
No, I'm gonna just leave it down.
Interviewer: Okay.
(53:03)
The- the buzz bombs were very low flying, and they were just for harassment but the populace,
they would, most of them would spend the nights in the underground in where the underground
trains were. I never did but I just took my- you know I- I stayed up, but you couldn’t go out at
night because you get lost, it was that dark. I mean, when you went in any place, they had a door
�you go in but then they had a curtained off little anteroom like, so then you go into there where
this, little anteroom is, and you close the door and everything so there was- there was no light
that it was exposed to it. So night was out, so you only could navigate the place in the daylight,
but we were right there across from this Connaught Square it was Hyde Park it was right across
the street. And they had the anti-aircraft guns and stuff there, in there and they had a lot of
women on their batteries, gun crews and I used to go across the street and talk to the gals on the
gun- on the gun crews, they were nice, and but I got to know London pretty, pretty well because
I spent a lot of time there. Well, what we did and then I'll get on to the, was they don't tell me
this but I overhear the conversations and there's no partition between the driver and the- and the
Officers, what the deal was- was it was a preparation for the bridging of the Rhine River and this
was- this was all in the making up, so we would go to a- a Naval base, you know and I would
think what the heck are we doing in this Naval base for, you know. Well, they’re there for, to
make arrangements for the LCMs and- and the people are gonna man them and- and get them up
to where they were supposed to get ‘em in Germany on the Albert Canal. Then we would go to
the air- to an air base and we’d be there several times you know, well that's to arrange for the air
drop and the barge- or the…
Interviewer: Barrage balloons?
Yeah, the barrage balloons and all that kind of stuff you know but it- it comes out and you know
pretty soon you can put it together you know, what's going on. Then some days we would go to
line companies you know that were the ones that were gonna put in the bridges and stuff but
went all over. So, I was- I was always and sometimes we’d go several times to the same place,
but it was- it was interesting and of course London you know it's- it’s fog. And we were there
when we- just like dropping a white sheet over the windshield you know, and it didn't make no
�difference whether it was foggy or wind and then of course you're driving on the wrong side of
the road. And if you was on an American base you- you drove on the right side and if you was on
the English road you drove on the left side so sometimes I’d screw up and get on the wrong side
of the road but it was- it was that kind of a deal. And once in a while we had- we would get a,
one of those, what do they call them? The ones that flew real high and silent what was them? V2s.
Interviewer: V-2s, yes.
(56:56)
And they- they would come down woo, I mean that really, it picked that staff car right off the lotground brought it like that. And silent you didn't hear it coming or anything you know, vroom,
that was the biggest thing, I mean I was scared to death of those. But the buzz bombs you just
hope that they kept going because when they ran out of fuel, phew down they became, you just
hope that they kept on going. The gun crews never shot at them or anything they just hope the
same thing, you know they kept on going. And so that was, I've spent a lot of time in London, so.
Interviewer: But how long did you spend in England then?
Then we shipped out let's see, it was right after Christmas and it was a very hurry it up
proposition, all of a sudden you know we're shipping out. And Southampton was just a stone’s
throw from where we were. And we crossed the channel at night in an LST and half of the cargo
was tanks, we- they were all chained down and then the other half was our outfit, and I was the
second vehicle on that when you unload, when the doors went down, I was the second vehicle.
And they're very spartan, you don't have nothing, no place to sleep or anything you know so you
make the best you can. And they had a few canvas cots if you was lucky enough to get one but it
was such a rough crossing, we had a real bad crossing that if you did get one of those canvas cot,
�it was slide when it went… then it slide back, and then it’d tip over you know so you- you give
up and you- you just sleep wherever you could find, underneath a vehicle or wherever you know.
Well some of the tanks broke loose from the chains that were in the hold and they were bouncing
around down there and everything but we- we landed in Le Havre early in the morning on, it was
getting daybreak and I was the second vehicle off the- off the LST. When you say you know that
they land on the beach, no that ain't the case at all. They open the doors, and they bring the door
down to the level of the water so they can be five feet of water at the end of it and so you don't
go off the things like slow like dip- dip down in the water, you try to fly off and float to the
ground or the beach. So, I was the second one and the captain told me, he says, “well, put it in
four-wheel drive,” and he says, “go as fast as you can in the…” I only had one car length to get
to where I was gonna go. So, I- I give it all it had you know, and we flew off the damn end of the
thing and we- we made it. Well as soon as I hit the beach, there was another guy, he was a S3's
driver his name was Don Behr, we were told to go to a SHAPE in Paris, that's the Supreme
Allied Forces Headquarters.
Interviewer: Right.
(1:00:35)
That was in- in Paris, that's where Eisenhower was and all the big shots. So, we took off right
away for Paris and the rest of them they hadn't even got off the- off the ship yet and we left- left
for Paris the two of us. And it took us all day to get there, we didn't get there until it was getting
dark, it was dark when we got there.
Interviewer: What- what made it so slow, just bad roads or?
It’s- it’s you know it’s like, it's not no expressway or anything.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�You know and then we had to follow the, you know the Paris signs you know, and it was a long
ways and then we got there, we had to find a MP or somebody to tell us where the hell this
headquarters was and then we- we found it and the place was closed, but they had a guard there
you know. So, we told him what we was there for and we wanted to see somebody, he took us in
and he went and back got the officer of the day and he came out and we went over to his desk
and who the hell do you think it was? It was James Roosevelt? It was- it was the Roosevelt; it
was the president's son, Jimmy. James Roosevelt had his name plate on his desk and…
Interviewer: We're gonna- we’re gonna pause right here because this tape is about up. So,
you get a break for a moment.
(1:02:03)
Interviewer: Okay so we had gotten you into Paris at the very end of 1944, you get to the
Allied Headquarters and you're introduced to one James Roosevelt.
He gave us our orders that I was sent there to get for where we was supposed to go, the outfit.
Well, it was- it was dark then, it was night, and it was past supper time, and we hadn’t had
anything to eat other than K-rations and so we had a big decision to make, should we ask this
guard where we could get some, get dinner, some hot meal here these- these- these MPs and stuff
they must eat someplace. But we discussed it and we thought no that's not fair, that the guys back
out at, they’re eating K-rations so we, this wouldn't be fair, and what we should get back there as
soon as we can. So, we got back to the beach in Le Havre in the morning and there was nothing,
they all gone- they were all gone and so we just took the road that led off the beach and- and we
bumped into them down- down the road a ways and they were waiting for us and they didn't
move until we- we gave them the orders. And then we moved that day up into Luxembourg and
we spent the night in a town in Luxembourg. Well, and of course in the town we- we caroused
�around a little bit, well it was pretty close where we was, they had one of these spas where they
had hot water that come out of the ground or something whatever you know. And so, with a few
cigarettes we- we had a hot bath in this spa and big copper tubs and then they didn't have running
water the ladies they bring in buckets and dump it in it, but they’d scrub your back if you ask
them, you know. So, we got a- a good- good, nice bath area in- in Luxembourg.
(1:04:16)
Interviewer: Okay now the Battle of the Bulge had been going on in the previous couple of
weeks.
Yup, that's right, well that's where we were headed.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Well then as we move north, we moved into Belgium and as we further was, further we got north
it worse the weather got you know. And as we got closer to the front, we only moved at night,
well the snow got real bad and we was wallowing in the snow. And even the big trucks because
there's no snowplows or anything, they was plowing snow up to the, crap to the damn windshield
you know and they couldn't even see, so they had to stop and- and so it got to where we had to
order them to put their chains on. And we had chains and they put chains on, even on four-wheel
drive. And there was some of them were you know six bys, they had big duals in the back, theythey were big trucks. Well anyway I was usually what they called on advanced- advanced… well
I- I always went ahead.
(1:05:29)
Interviewer: Right.
Advanced out look or advanced patrol or whatever.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Advanced, well anyway it was a- an officer, and a guy run shotgun, and- and a driver and so we
always went ahead of the- of the convoy and all the troops, everything to see that everything, the
road is- is the road you're supposed to be on and that it's passable and there's no gunfire, no, you
know you have no problem, everything. So, we was always on an advanced patrol.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And I usually was- was on it most of the time and so I was pretty much in the know where we
were going and everything because they had to tell me, tell you, you know. And then the guys
would always ask you, you know “where are we going, where are we going, or,” you know, and
they always got scuttlebutt you know. I told them “you're going to- you're going to the above.”
Well, that's where we ended up, we ended up in Malmedy that's where the order said that we was
to report. Well, Malmedy was all shot up and banged, and all, it was just a bunch of rubble and
the snow was- was really bad and the weather was terrible, was freezing and you know what the
main thing is how do we survive, you know I mean we, that's the main thing, we weren’t worried
about the Germans or anything we was worried about how we was gonna survive. So, everybody
you know, crawls around and trying to find a place where they can get out of the weather and
they dig around in the rubble trying to find a- a cellar or someplace where they could, you know
get in and crawl in. So everybody was on your own, you know and I found this and several, a lot
of the guys, it was kind of, it must have been a- a gymnasium or something, it wasn't a theatre
because there was no theater seats in it and it was pretty big room but the roof was all blown off
in the middle and there was snow in the middle of it but all around the edge was a- a bare space
of about six or eight feet and that- that was all we needed was to get out of the snow, so all the
guys would bunk down or try to sleep around the edge of that- that building. And so that's where
I- I spent my time, most of it in when I was in Malmedy in that there, but we- we stood guard
�duty at night and everything and- and then we operated during the daytime and our- our area of
responsibility was from Malmedy to Saint Vith, and you probably heard of the Malmedy
Massacre…
Interviewer: Yes.
(1:08:25)
Haven't you? Well, that was what they called tri corners, three worlds came together there in this
field and I would drive by it maybe three or four times a day sometimes, you know. And all I
would see then was because there was so much snow was the mounds, every place where there
was a body there was a mound and the thing it got out of hand, pretty soon it was that there was
300 guys that got shot there. Then it was 350 and all the scuttlebutt you know that went around
amongst the troops you know, they never seen it, but it was scuttlebutt that passed along. So,
everybody said I'm not gonna be taken prisoner oh no, no you know and things kind of stiffened
you know. Well actually the main what- what the thing was is we were put it into what they call,
we were infantry, in other words we weren't combat engineers, we were infantry and that’s what
we were. Well, I- I just did what I was supposed to do, you know. The thing that bothered me in
the most was these infiltrators, these Germans that were in un- American uniforms that was a
real mess, that was bad.
Interviewer: Well, they have used those at the start of the Bulge, but that would have been
several weeks before you got there. Were there any around still?
(1:09:59)
They was there, oh yes anybody you encountered, it was, you had your finger on the trigger and
it was just, they had a password you know and a counter sign and all that but it never got around,
you know maybe the counter sign and the password was three days old you know by the time
�you got it. So, it was a matter of who's Betty Grable? Where you from? “I'm from Michigan.”
Who's- who’s- who’s- who’s the ball team that Michigan, or the National League team for
Michigan? “Detroit Tigers,” you know and everything, but they knew more about the United
States than you did, you know. But they'd all lived in the United States you know, and they knew
all that and so it was early touch-and-go it wasn't good at all and they screwed up all of the signs
that told you know what road you're on.
Interviewer: Did you actually encounter any of that specifically or did you just hear about
it?
(1:11:08)
What?
Interviewer: The Germans- these Germans doing all this stuff?
Oh no, no, no they was, we’d encounter them all the time, yeah. That’s why… you know you
never knew; you know that you maybe just let a bunch of, half a dozen Germans just walk by
you you know. They had all the answers you know and everything and. But it was- it was very,
you know I mean stressful, I mean nobody trusted anybody.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And they was probably eating your chow you know in the same- same place. That's the way it
was, but…
(1:11:46)
Interviewer: Now did you see…
The first time I got to the front this is where the action was, was in St. Vith and we drove up to
St. Vis and the Officers, they went into a house or something there but there was a GI walking
behind a- a, it was a stone wall. He walking back and forth, he tried to keep warm you know, and
�I was, I see him down, walking down and I thought well somebody will want to talk to him you
know. So, I went down to talk to him, he gave me an education, I- that was the best information I
got, I walked down there, and he says, “don't you know that when you get out of a staff car like
that that you’re prime bait for some sniper to pick you off?” And he says, “that coat you’re
wearing too,” he says, “Christ they think you're an officer. Where did you get that coat?” And I
says, “my captain gave a couple bottles of scotch for a couple of those are, those have- that's a
severe weather coat, Navy coat.” “Holy Christ,” he says, “that's a nice coat,” he said, “but you
get rid of it,” he said, “they'll pick you off,” and he says, “you’ve never been here at the front
before.” And I said, “no” I said, “no we've only been here, got here a couple days ago.” And he
says, “well,” he says, “get rid of that coat,” and he says, “when- when, don't- when you get out of
that staff car,” he says, “stay out, behind it,” he said, “don’t- don't expose yourself.” And I- I
talked to him you know and I says, where abouts are the Germans? He said, “on the other side of
the wall, they're trying to keep warm too,” and I said, “that's why you're walking back in
position?” “Yeah,” he says, “I'm trying to keep warm,” he said, “I'm supposed to be on guard
duty here.” But he gave me all this good advice, you know, and so I remembered that, but the
coat I wasn't gonna part with. It had a nice big…and it was all fur lined inside you know and, but
I disguised it with the scarf and everything so but… he- he was a very, he’d been there long he
knew what the scoop was but I didn't know. But that was my conversation with the guy in- in St
Vith. But they were, the Germans were on the other side of the wall, you know they were trying
to keep warm too. Well, they say that Patton you know when he relieved Bastogne you know
that was the big deal, well it was big. But really what changed the whole situation as far as I was
concerned, what I thought the Sun came out. Good weather, sunshine you know the Air Force
was back in business and boy did they give ‘em hell. And they just, those tanks and everything
�you know they just bombed hell out of them and everything you know and then the Germans
turned and headed back to Germany. And but that was in my opinion it was the Air Force that
turned the tide.
Interviewer: Yeah.
It certainly wasn't because I was there that's for damn sure.
(1:15:23)
Interviewer: By the time you got there I mean they had already been stopped and were
being pushed back, I mean you couldn't have gotten to Malmedy or Saint Vith within the
first week or so of that fight.
No, no, no they- the Germans have been in Malmedy and…
Interviewer: Yes, and well beyond it, right.
Yeah, right and- and then they ousted them and they pushed them back. We was in Malmedy is
where the headquarters was.
Interviewer: Right, now you said that you were being at that point just kind of used as
infantry, now did you actually go into fight as infantry? Or did things change a little bit
and they put you back to being engineers?
No we just stayed as what as what we were, we just had, all I had was an M1…
Interviewer: Carbine.
(1:16:06)
Carbine and a few grenades that were under the seat of the vehicle that I had. That's all I had and
it's not very good with a take, I have no bazooka or anything but that was it. And fortunately, the
Sun came out and things got well in a hurry you know because in Patton took care of the
Bastogne deal. But Bastognewas quite a ways from Malmedy.
�Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.
That was not close at all, but we just operated between St. Vith and- and Malmedy that was our
operation earlier. And we, it wasn't just our headquarters company, it was the whole 11- 53rd.
Interviewer: Right.
All these other outfits.
Interviewer: Right.
You know they, on there but were they ended up I don't know the ended up you know. The
brass….
Interviewer: So about how long did you stay in that area?
Oh, I’d say a month or so, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
(1:17:06)
Yeah, and then when things, they pushed the Germans out because they were going back to
Germany.
Interviewer: Right.
And the Bulge still was- was over. We thought we were gonna go up into Hürtgen Forest that's
where the next battle was, was Hürtgen Forest. And so, when we packed up to move it wasn't
Hürtgen Forest at all, we went to Holland. They- they swung us north into Holland and we ended
up in a town called Sittard and it's right across from Maastricht but the Albert Canal it goes
between the two and we- we was housed at a school house in Sittard. We sit there for quite a
while and we wondered what the hell was going on and well we was waiting for the LCMs to
come up through the Albert Canal to Maastricht there, and- and that's what we were waiting for.
Well when they got there, then our outfit that they- they had tank retrievers that sucked these
�LCMs out of the Albert Canal on to these tank retrievers and there must have been fifteen/
twenty of these LCMs. And then they got ‘em out of the- out of the canal line up and then and
this was the captain, this Captain Hernandez and I- we had the job of getting him to the Rhine
River and we had to wait for a while because they had the Roer River to get across and so wewe had to wait until the line, or the battle line moved off to the Rhine but when they got up to the
Rhine, why then we- we followed along. But the towns were built right on the edge of the road,
so and the roads are very narrow, and these big heavy things was like moving a house. So, it was
very difficult, and we had a- a- a crew that had chainsaws and they had, we had some explosives
guys that blew up stuff and a couple of dozers and everything. And so, we would reconnoiter, a
route, and we’d go, maybe we’d detoured way off just so we wouldn't have to blow up a town or
whatever, village, but some places it was just a matter of well this is all we gotta, we're gonna
have to do, blow something up. So, they would take a side of this little village or something and
they’d charge it up, and they’d blow it all down, and then the dozers would go in and push it all
aside so we could get through. And trees and everything you know they would saw down with
chainsaw I mean, so it took us some doing to get up to the Rhine River but when we got there,
they all had them lined up and I drove right up to the- to the Rhine River, I, to see what it was
you know and I looked out and I holy Christ, they’re gonna get across this. I looked you know,
and the houses look like dollhouses on the other side, you know. And the Rhine Rivers is about
like from here to Mona Lake, well it's a- it’s a big river Christ they have big, big boats on that
damn thing. And I thought holy Christ this- this is not gonna be easy, this is gonna be big time
you know. Well while I was standing there dumb founded you know, bang a sniper took a shot at
me from across the river and it hit the bumper of my- my command car, it right in the bumper
about a foot away from me to the left of me and I thought holy Christ I forgot about what that
�guy told me you know. So, I got- I got the hell out of there, by but they was shooting from all the
way across the damn Rhine River. So I- I was lucky but that was the only time I ever shot at, but
then we, where I was, I- I don't know where the officers where but they set up a headquarters
company just out- out back away from the Rhine River maybe a half a mile or something where
there was some houses or something. And I was at a farmhouse that that I was staying in, and I
would go to where the headquarters company was what's with a mess hall where we- where we
get food, where we- we ate. I was walking from where I was at this farmhouse one morning,
going to breakfast and all I had was my mess kit in my hand and I was walking across this field I
saw the first jet I ever saw in my life, this German jet come shhhh right over me. And he was
photographing and checking the progress of the material and stuff that was being accumulated
for the crossing, but never the first jet I ever saw. And he just went right, all I had was my mess
kit and I waived it at him, but that was it, but I thought they was gonna cross the Rhine on my
birthday but actually it was the 24th of March. And that they actually made the, they moved.
(1:23:06)
Well they brought up what they called, have you heard, it's called a heavy pontoon bridge, they
have these scows and its wood planking and everything but- but it's obsolete. But they use the
scows for the troops to get across and the initial assault. Well, on the 24th, this was at night it all
started at about 1:00/ 2:00 o'clock in the morning that the barrage started and that artillery, all of
it, all along. And it was about a nine-mile front that this was all taking place. But you only see
just a little segment you know, well I- I was wanted to see everything that was going on you
know but it was at night and you know you didn't- you couldn't see much, you know. I- I went
over and I was standing by a 105 howitzer that was an artillery battery’s that was shelling the
other side. And so, I just watched them you know, it was operating so I got to talking to one of
�the guys I said, “let me take a shot at Hitler, will yah?” I said, “I never- I never had a shot at, I
only shot my damn 250- M1 yet.” So he let me pull a lanyard on- on one. While I was waiting
for morning, I thought I'd see what the hell's going on you know, couldn't see a damn thing. Only
thing I saw was the barrage balloons, I saw those were up. It was all smoke, white smoke,
everything. double smoke, you couldn't see squat you know. I thought I'd see them starting the
you know the bridge and the things moving in it, all under smoke, everything was smoke. And so
I didn't get to see the hell of a lot, you know. But I- I kept watching you know and sometimes the
wind would change a little bit and it’d blow a little bit, so you’d get a little bit of an opening you
know you'd see what's going on. And they were making the approaches in and they have got the
LCMs launched and the guys had got across. And what they did with those scows that off that
heavy pontoon bridge equipment, they had outboard motors on them, and they had what they call
chemical starters, so they all started at the same time. Nobody was doing the dang thing because
it wouldn't start. And they were all- all gone and they- they- they made the crossing and
everything and they had pushed far enough so that the 88s were not a problem. Which they
wouldn't do anything until they had that taken care of because they didn't want the bridge shelled
with 88s. And pretty much there was no air problem.
Interviewer: Right.
(1:26:15)
I don't know whether they had an airdrop or not because I didn't see it and that would have been
farther.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah, they were paratroopers who landed on the other side in part.
There was a big, big campaign it was…
Oh yeah.
�Interviewer: A whole bunch of places like that…
It was a second largest amphibious action of the war in Europe, I mean it was next to Malmondyor Normandy.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And so, I didn't get to see a hell of a lot, but when daylight came I, it was all smoke. And I- I just
hung around you know and there would be times when the smoke, the wind would blow the
smoke away a little bit, you could see a little bit. But it was just pretty much all just smoke and
so I didn't see much but as soon as they got the bridge across and of course they had these LCMs
that were supplying the ammunition, and the food, and everything that, and they had enough of
them to keep supply and they would bring back the wounded and whatever, you know. And they
could- they could take a Jeep over a small- small truck but they were all loaded with mostly
ammunition and stuff. But when we I- I just- just waited and they got the bridge in and- and then
I got, could see better. And the- the officers wanna go in, and in and we, the first two divisions
that went across on the bridge was the 95th and the 30th. The 30th was I think the ones that went
across in the scows and they also crossed on the treadway bridge that we, this outfit, our outfit
built and then the 95th went across. Well, this guy I met at the Tanglewood, he was in the 95th
and he was, he keeps telling me, “we crossed on your bridge,” and I said, “I didn't build that
damn bridge.” I said I was in the outfit, but I said I just drove the brass around, and he keeps
talking about it but you, have, well you’ve never been across them, a treadway bridge is, you
know what they are?
(1:28:44)
Interviewer: Can you describe it for the audience here? Can you describe it?
�Well, they have these rubber rafts and it's all built on these rubber rafts and they have what they
call the Brockway bridge truck, it's a Redwood truck, it's built just for- for this purposes. It has
two arms, and it has two treads on it, the treads are about ten feet long and about four feet wide,
heavy, real heavy. And what they do is they- they put one of these inflated rubber rafts anchored
into the river and then they back the bridge truck onto the approach to that raft and then the arms
come down and it has to be that they set down at the same time, if one sits down before the other
it will flip. So, these arms come down and at the same time these heavy treads sit on that- thatthat rubber raft and then the next truck will back up onto that raft and then they- they set them
down on the next one. But it's a matter of inflating and the anchoring is the biggest- biggest
headache and the biggest problem. The current in the Rhine River is very, very substantial and
you end, up you think the bridge is gonna be straight like this, it’s like this you know.
Particularly you get out in where the current is, you know, but anchoring it so that you know the
damn thing don't get away. And then they had a heavy pins like about as around as a big, as your
wrist that pinned them together. And then the, these bridge trucks would keep backing up onto
the bridge and as they put the new raft down in and is anchor properly, then they’d set another
set of treads on that one and they pin it together, and that's a treadway bridge. And it took a lot a,
more than one treadway bridge company to put- put that bridge across the Rhine River I'll tell
you that. So, that's the way they- they do it and about three days later the first ones went over
with these- these two divisions, and then we followed up about on the third day, then we went
across, but while I was screwing around just waiting all day, this- this major, he was- he was
another one that I had. He was a shoe salesman, he was a major, his name was Roland, and I was
driving him at the time, and we were standing on one of these jetties that went on into the Rhine
River and we were watching the activity of the LCMs and what was going on across the bridge
�and everything, you could see it all for on this little jetty. Well while we was on this jetty, we
look up and on the front porch of a house it was up on along the- the bank of the Rhine River,
up- up, up a ways and it was probably about here to that bird house out there. Up and who was
there but Eisenhower, Churchill, and Montgomery, and they were on the front porch of this- this
house and they were talking. So, we stood there and we was watching them, you know, well then
all of a sudden in comes one of these LCMs at the end of this jetty we were on. And they
dropped the doors and everything's down and who comes down from up there, Churchill. And I
didn't know this, I thought he was gonna come across the Rhine River, but it was a photo-op and
had all these guys behind him you know and everyone, and- and they had these cameras and all
this. He walks right by us, I could have reached out and touched him. He gets- he gets here, we
was, this major and I was only two on that jetty. And he says next to me, and he says, “hey
Yank.” “Hey Yank,” he called me a Yank. He had his grey admiral outfit on and a black corona
and he goes down and they- they get on that LCM at the end there you know. And then they lift
the doors up and everything and there he is standing with these other guys at the end of it looking
over you know like as if he's going across the Rhine River and then they take his picture and all
that kind of thing. I begged this major to let me go down and get on that damn boat- ship you
know that LCM, you know. And I said, “let’s go, come on let’s go down there.” He wouldn't do
it and I thought about it you know, but I thought you know he said “no” and then I thought he’s
just a kind of guy that would court-martial for any damn thing, you know but he was a prick and
so we didn't get it. But I was in a barber shop one day after I got home, and he had all these old
magazines and stuff like the had you know. Well, he was telling me that, what was it, you probwell you wouldn't know… they had it would be like Life magazine or it was the paper or the
magazine that they got like Life magazine or Look or whatever it was.
�Interviewer: Yeah.
(1:34:38)
And he was telling me, he says “that was on the front page of one of those magazine” or
whatever, and I said, “one of these?” “Yeah!” He said, “it was on there,” and I said, “how long
ago was it on there?” You know he told me about it and I said, “well Christ I’ll have have to see
if I can't find that.” So I’ve been looking for it for ever since but I haven't been successful. But
that was my experience with a meeting Churchill.
Interviewer: Alright now once the, you’ve built the bridge across the Rhine and you go
across the Rhine, now what do you do?
(1:35:12)
We followed the 95th on up, they went on up to the Elbe River and what the deal was Patton and
his, when they captured that railroad bridge that they didn't blow down…
Interviewer: Yeah right.
And they got across, they got their Treadway bridge across without any resistance or any, so they
got across first but in between the two then they had about 400,000 Germans.
Interviewer: Right.
That was in this they….
Interviewer: The Ruhr Pocket.
They were in the pocket, well we was in- we was in support of this 95th division and- and we
were going up to the Rhine River or up to the Elbe River and it was all in an industrial area very,
very much factories and that kind of stuff. And what we would do is we would clean out these
towns in other words, what the deal was is the towns would, they’d throw a sheet out the window
and hang it down in front of you know all of it like that you know. Well then the other thing was
�is they had to turn in all their guns and they had to bring them to the burgomaster of the City Hall
or what it was. But there were always some that they need to clean out and that was what we
were doing we was cleaning out these areas. Well we was, one night that we was in this one
town, and we was cleaning it out, I was going down the main drain with some other on the other
side and I was on one side of the street, another guy. And one of the, a German walked out- out
of one the cellars right in front of me. And he had his hands on the top of his head you know,
scared the hell out me you know. And I just waved my carbine on where to go, the MPs, go that
way, and he walked the main, the middle of the street down- down and they gave me credit for
capturing a German.
Interviewer: There you go.
(1:37:37)
German prisoner, I- know more captured a German prisoner... He’s a poor SOB you know that
he wanted to stay alive too you know, and he probably was in the same boat as I was. He
probably was a conscript you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
That Hitler got from maybe Romania or some place you know where they he was no more
German than I was you know. But that was it but that's what we did and- and we just followed
the, on up and then the area where we were when the war ended was it was kind of a- a rural area
but it wasn't a farming area it was more of lakes and woods and- and that kind of a area. And
there was a few houses and it was more like maybe a resort area.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(1:38:32)
�I don't think it was a Black Forest or anything but there was a lot of the woods, I shot a couple of
deer in there I remember, that we had for- for dinner. But we stayed in a, it was, I would say
comparable to a bed and breakfast or something like what we have here, like it's a big house.
Interviewer: Yeah.
You know that, that's where we- we stayed while we was there. And the war ended there but we
was in what they call the British sector and so we just sit there in this German or in this British
sector until they relieved us. Well while we was there the Catholic chaplain’s driver and I did,
we got a leave and they give us a option of either going, they’d fly us to England or we could go
to the French Riviera, Nice, we didn't have no money and England's expensive and we had some
cigarettes and some soap and we had some- some good stuff, so we chose Nice and we- they
took us to a train and we- we ended up down in Nice. We stayed in the Negresco Hotel, the
Fanton, the best one in Nice. And we had all this barracks bag full of- of loot you know, our
stuff, we- we always kept the Champ candy bars that were in the- the chocolate that were in the
K-rations and the cigarettes, you know there was three or four cigarettes in a little package. We
have, we kept all that stuff and then we always got a ration once in a while, cigarettes and I
didn’t smoke and he didn't smoke, so we was pretty well healed as far as had stuff to deal with.
Well when we got there we wouldn’t want to go around with that barracks bag full of stuff so
we- we ended up in the jewelry store and we made a deal and he bought all of this stuff. The only
thing he wouldn't buy was a Lifebuoy soap, couldn’t give a Lifebuoy soap away, they didn’t like
Lifebuoy soap, but we gave it away you know, you know. We got rid of it, but we had all kinds
of money, we had French francs and we was, and then we always kept a few cigarettes you
know, I mean we always had one in our shirt pocket here, open and then we always had a few in
reserve you know, that was back in the room you know. That was our thing to really be nice, you
�know instead of tipping the waiter at the- at the Negresco you gave him a few cigarettes you
know. And the maid in the- maid up your bed everything, you give her a few cigarettes and that
was great, you know holy Christ that was- that was better than giving them money. And then if
somebody's nice to you then you give them a couple cigarettes or the girls you give ‘em a candy
bar, you know. And it was just a little, ones that came in the K-rations, but we kept the- we kept
the candy of course. But we had a good time and we had to spend this- all this money we had,
you know, and you- you’ve ever been to that Mediterranean?
Interviewer: I've been to that area, yeah.
(1:42:04)
Have you? Well and they, in front of the Nice it was right on the- right on the Mediterranean. It's
not like sand like Lake Michigan, it’s stones and it's round stones so that they're not sharp or
anything. So, you could lay in the stones and ain't too bad, but the beaches were topless. The
little kids up to maybe five/ six/ seven years old, they’ll- they- they were nude, they didn't have
no clothes- clothes and they were going swimming. And- and the ladies laid around, they were
topless, and they went swim- you know paraded around, but we didn’t have no swimsuit or
anything you know so we went in in our shorts, just our underwear shorts. When you come out
of the water you know it’s all the plastered against you, you know. But they don't care you know,
and we’d lay in the stones and sun you know and everything and it was- it was nice. And one
thing that- that we- we happened that, we was trying to spend some of our money so we went
into a- a ladies’ store and this fella I was with, his name was Bob DeKalb, and he was the altar
boy and the driver for the chaplain, catholic chapman. His- he had a girlfriend her name was
Dusty, and he ended marrying her and my girlfriend’s name was Doris and I ended up marrying
her. Well, we went into this ladies’ store and we was looking for something to send home, and
�they told us all you gotta do is pick it out and we’ll see that it gets home, we'll make out the
packaging and everything you know. We didn’t, we were a little worried about that, they said
“oh yeah we will, we’ll do it, don't worry.” But we got in there and they start showing us
different things and they would model it, you know they had models. We got down to negligees
and we thought we got to do something here, so we both bought a negligee, I bought my wife a
negligee, it's still up in the attic someplace. And they sent it home and my wife got it, and it, she
got it and I don't think she ever wore it much but it still, I think it's up in the loft of the garage.
But anyway, that was one of the things we did but one of the other things which was nice was we
met this nice lady, she was beautiful, young gal her name was Didastera, I can remember
beautiful women you know. Well anyway she was pushing her bike along and she had two long
loaves of French bread tied on the back on the rack and we got talking to her she- she was
walking along and- and she was able to talk some English you know, and we got talking as we
walked along, you know. She finally said, “well come to my villa,” and she lived right up, right
along on the Mediterranean, well she invited us to her villa, and I guess it was supper I guess or
something. And so that was at night we was gonna go to her- her home it was and she was, her
mother must have been either French and her father was Moroccan or vice versa but she was that
in between, you know and- and beautiful. I got a picture of her, but I can't get up in the loft to get
it. Well anyway her name was Didastera and so we, when we went to- to visit there and she said
to have supper, we thought we'd want to bring some champagne. So, we bought the champagne
from this guy and supposed to been the best you could buy you know, we got there and we
opened it up, she started laughing and laughing and laughing you know and we couldn't figure
what the hell she laughing about you know. Well the guy had gave us a screw on and it was
apple juice.
�Interviewer: Oh.
(1:46:48)
And we didn’t know no better, and it was apple juice. But that's what I remember about that, but
that's what we did and then we was up in British sector for quite a while until the British relieved
us. And so we did a little looting and a little this and that you know and I- I got a nice Hanomag
four-cylinder convertible sedan that I- I liberated.
Interviewer: Okay.
(1:47:23)
It was in this driveway or in this garage and next to this house and they'd build a bomb shelter in
the driveway, right in front of the garage is this bomb shelter. It's all cement and the concrete and
everything you know, that's why it was still in the garage because nobody could get it out of
there. So we get some of the demolition boys that had the- the TNT and we powdered that thing
out thinking we’d blew it to hell that bomb shelter. And then we push the stuff aside and drag
that Hanomag out of there, all it needed was some good GI gas, you know, we were in business.
So we rode around in a convertible, Hanomag, I gave it to a British guy when I- when we had to
get- get move out of there.
Interviewer: Now did you move then to a different sector?
(1:48:17)
We moved from there to back to Le Havre.
Interviewer: Okay.
And that's where they segre- that's where our outfit was broke up.
Interviewer: Okay.
�This, you know about this don't you, where you had to have the points?
Interviewer: Right.
You get out, well this is where they- they did the evaluating. If you was 32 you was- you was
out, I mean that was an action. And I don't know what all the criteria was, but if you was married
and you had children back home you- you made it. But it was the young guys that- that- that
really got it and I was young, so I didn't have any points and you had to be, to get point you had
to be in the combat zone, not- not in England, you know but you had to be in Germany and all
that. And I didn't have very many points, so the outfit was broke up, but we spent quite a bit of
time during that time that it was being broke up and they was doing the evaluate everything and
in order to kill time I- they have equipment, I drove a gravel truck it was a six by six only instead
of having a cargo body it had a dump body on it. But I got, I like doing that and they was
repairing the roads and trying to rebuild, you know for the people to get things a little bit back to
normal. People were trying to rebuild and they were knocking the mortar off of the bricks and
stuff and piling ‘em up in front of the house or lot so they could rebuild. And so I drove that
gravel truck mostly while I was in Le Havre waiting for an evaluation and what they were gonna
do with me. Well, when they decided they shipped a whole bunch of us to Epernay that was back
in France, in northern France and we went in a tent city, it was a tent camp and we was housed in
those tents. We ate field rations and- and out of our mess kits and stuff, we ate on the ground or
wherever we could find a place to sit or anything. So, it was pretty Spartan deal, but we didn't do
nothing.
Interviewer: And what- what time of year was it then? Was it getting late in the year?
(1:50:42)
�No let’s see that would have been, it was pretty good weather, it was decent weather as I recall.
Yeah, cause, yeah, we- we played baseball and we, you know.
Interviewer: Well, the fall can be mild in France if you get the right year.
Yeah, well it was outside of this town of it Epernay. Well one- one day, well I was there you
know well a guy rolls up in a Jeep and he hollers out my name and he says, “they’re looking forfor me,” you know and I said what the hell is this guy, what does he want? And he says, “get
your gear and come with me.” So, I picked up my gear and got in the Jeep with him you know,
and I says, “where are we going?” He says, “well we ain't far,” he says, “we'll be there in a
minute.” So we went through Epernay and then out in the country and we went through this little
town and maybe it was maybe five/ six kilometers outside of Epernay, we come to this great big
chateau out in the count- in a- in a field in the country. Big white deal all these brown steps out
in front of it you know going up to the- to the deal and there was some other outbuildings, you
know. And then, beautiful place you know, and he wheels in there, you know, big, long driveway
going into it you know, holy Christ, what's going on? So we get there and he says, “come on.”
And we climb all those stairs up to the, going into this chateau and we go in there and there's this
lady, big, tall or she was a tall, slim lady. Very attractive for her age I was, I bet she was a looker
during her time. But she was grey haired, and I'd say she maybe was sixty and she was in this
kind of room and we went in there and the guy says, “here's the guy,” and she looks me over, she
says, “you smoke?” I said, “no.” “You drink?” “No.” “You speak French?” And I says, “Un petit
peu” And- and- and she looks me over you know, and she says, “he'll do.” And then she said,
“get a haircut.” And I thought where the hell am I gonna get a haircut? But then she says, “take
care of him and show him where he's gonna bunk down and what- what his deal is,” you know.
So the guy takes and I said, “what the hell's going on? He says, “you're gonna be the Colonel's
�driver, you driver.” I said, “I am?” He said, “yeah.” He says, “come on and I'll show you whatwhat you're gonna be driving.” So, we go down to where the horses, this is a horse barn and
place, you know, but they had the cars and everything. This was a- a LaSalle, it had stars on it
and all OD and everything on it. And he says, “this is what are you’re gonna be driving,” and
then he showed me around a little bit. But everything was run by POWs, everything. The
household, everything and the POWs did everything and he said, “you want anything, just tell
the POW.” And- and showed me where I was gonna bunk in the- in the chateau, you know. He
says, “tomorrow morning you'll be at the bottom of stairways at eight o'clock.” “Okay,” so I
[unintelligible] went down the driveway, that thing out there at eight o'clock in the morning, I'm
there at the bottom of the stair with the door open, you know. And pretty soon the Colonel, he
comes walking down you know, and I never met him, I didn't know who the hell he was or
anything, you know. I snapped my solute you know, and- and he hops in the car and close the
door you know and then he says, “I'll tell you where- where to go,” and then he told me how to,
where to go and we went up back to Epernay and then- then we went and went south out of
Epernay, we went to Reims. Well, his office was in the schoolhouse where the surrender of the
Germans was, in that- in that schoolhouse, that's where his office was. So, we go there and are
you interested in knowing what the schoolhouse looked like?
(1:54:59)
Well, the schoolhouse was a dirty brown- or dirty red, but is built just like everything, is right on
the edge of the street and the administration part of it was all in the front, but it was built in a ushape and then it had two wings on each side, and it was two story but all the stairways and
everything was outside, and- and inside of the u was the playground for the kids. But you had an
air- outdoor- outdoor store- stairway to go up to the second floor, and an outside porch railing
�deal that went around to the different rooms. And that's the way it was laid out, but this room that
the armistice or the surrender was signed in was in this front part, and I just will walk by it
maybe half a dozen times a day, you know. But all it was was a small room and a long table in it
with chairs in it and they had a chain across the doors, so they didn't want you to walk in, going
in there. And that's the only way it was, well I- I was his driver and I learned as we went along,
you know. But he was kind of a, he was from the old, he was an old, from the old, before the
war, you know. He was old army.
Interviewer: Right.
(1:56:38)
He was a, actually a cavalry guy, he was a cavalry guy, that's where his background. Well
anyway he was the chief honcho for that particular they call it, OZ Section Six of- of France that
he- he was over. And this is where this chateau was, this is, was- this was his house, this is where
he was housed. I mean that was, that, it was the only one that was there, he was, no other officers
or anything, it was his house. And so, the other offices were that worked in this Reims deal they
had a officer’s complex there in Reims. Well sometimes, in fact every day at- at lunchtime well
I- I would, they walk just across the street a little bit to the officer’s mess and it was in a house.
You know china plates and white tablecloths and all that, you know where the officers ate and
everything, but I would drive over there, and it was in a courtyard kind of a place and it had a big
stone or a brick wall around it with iron spikes on the top and all that and an iron gate and
everything. But I had to eat in the kitchen, but I ate the same chow as the officers, but I had to eat
in the kitchen. Well, that's- that's the way it was and sometimes while he was- he would say
overnight, he wouldn't go back to the, and then I had to stay at Reims too. Well then, I slept inin- in a room in the attic of this, where the officer’s mess was. But I ate in the kitchen there for
�my meals and stuff, had two waitresses there and they served these officers on china plate, white
tablecloths, real, real fancy, you know and there must have been about, I'd say maybe four/ five
tables you know that the officers were at. And when I, when he stayed overnight, he stayed there
at the officer’s billet wherever they was, I never saw where the hell it was even, but they walked
to it. I never drove to it and I would stay and, had the place up in the attic and I got to know that
waitresses pretty well. In fact, they'd like to get out of there as quick as they could at night
because you know it was a long day for them. They had to have breakfast you know, and they’d
get there you know to have breakfast served and everything and so I'd help them, you know I
mean they would set the table up for morning for breakfast, you know. And I’d go and put the
plates, or I’d pick up the dirty dishes and stuff and I helped them. So, I got to know ‘em pretty
well and good, they were real nice to me and I couldn't figure out which one I liked the most.
(1:59:52)
Well, it was the dark-haired one instead of the blonde, and so once in a while I'd walk her home
after work but that was a problem. I come back, and the gates locked and everything, you know
and then I’m out, but I figured out how to do it, I climb a tree and then I climb out on the limb
and I dropped down on the inside of the wall. But that was in and so it’s no problem, you know,
that was I guess frosting on the cake I guess you know, that I got to hang out with these- these
gals. And they were really nice, you know, and they taught me a lot of French, you know, and
they wanted to know English too, they were nice. And I tell you, the colonel loosened up as we
got to know, he asked me, you know what where you from, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
(2:00:52)
�And he called me Ramsey, he didn't care- know what my first name was or he didn't care.
“Where are you from?” I told him, I said Michigan, and we got to know and he says, “one day
you want,” out of the blue he says, “you ever ride a horse? You know anything about horse
riding?” I said, “no,” I said, “my dad was the milkman,” I said, “he had horse routes and where
they had horses that pulled the milk wagon,” I said, “once in a while,” I said, “my dad have to
take the horse down to the blacksmith shop to get new shoes,” and I said, “it was quite a ways
from the dairy barn where they kept the horses down to where the blacksmith shop was
downtown.” And I said, “my dad used to take and put the horse, a line on the horse’s halter,
through the window of the car, and an equal slow along and the horse would walk along side of
the car,” he said, “then my dad would let me ride on the horse,” and I said, “I just sit up there on
the horse and walk along with it.” I said, “that's my only experience in- in riding horse,” I said,
“it was a milk horse.” He says, “would you like to learn? I said, “oh yeah, that'd be nice.” He
says and he used to ride once in a while, he had a horse, it was a grey one and they had about six
or eight real nice riding horses, I think they belong to the viscountess. And so he says, “well tell
‘em to saddle you up a horse too.” So, he goes up and he gets his riding boots on and his riding
deal and all that you know. And he comes down and- and there I am in my, with his- his grey
horse that helped the POWs holding for him you know, and then one for me. Well then he shows
me how to get on and what to do and all that, you know and they were, they were English
saddles, they weren’t like what we have you know with the horn or Western. And so, I would,
he'd go ahead you know, and I'd be behind, you know, I'd stay with him, you know. We adjusted
the stirrups to my liking you know and everything. And I did all right, but you know then we go
across the countryside, you know and everything and it was- it was nice, but he loosened up you
know some, you know, but not too much.
�(2:03:22)
Interviewer: Alright.
But I gotta tell you …
Interviewer: We gotta pause right here cause this tape, you finished off hour number two.
So, I gotta… Okay so we've gotten in your story to the point where you got the assignment
now where you're working for this Colonel and he's taking you out, you learn to ride
horses, and so forth, and then off-camera you mentioned that the secretary, was the woman
who had greeted you when you first got there.
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: That she liked you too.
We got to be real good, are we on tape now?
Interviewer: Yes, yes, we are.
(2:03:54)
Well Odette kind of took me under her wing I guess, and she was very good counsel for me, and
you know what she liked about me? Whenever I talked to her, I tried to talk to her in French, it
was always in French and then she would correct me, and she would get a lot of laughs out of my
cobbled up what I was trying to say. But I always spoke to her in French, she liked that and sheshe told me you know that we gotta have a class, we're gonna have class and I'll- I’ll, we’ll have
classes and I’ll really teach you really French because my French was not, you know it was
enough I could get by but that was it. But she was a nice lady, and she gave me a lot of good
counsel, you know particularly with the colonel you know, I mean don't do this, don't do that, do
this you know and so I was, I was very thankful for that. But the- the colonel also was, when he
watched his- his health and his condition, he- he'd had me sometimes take him out in the
�boonies, way out on some country road, dump him off three/ four miles from the chateau and
dump him off. And I- I just leave him and go back, and he'd have to walk back, and he did that
once in a while but and other times he- he would, the horses he'd like to ride the horses, course
he was a calvary guy. And that was nice that you know, he let me go with him a couple of times.
(2:05:33)
Interviewer: Yeah.
But it was nice.
Interviewer: About how long did you have that job?
Well, I'll tell you we were supposed to go to Penton's- Patton's funeral the day that I got my
orders.
Interviewer: Okay.
To come home.
Interviewer: So that's like December…
That was a big, that was a big deal.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Well, let me go back a little bit, we got to know one better as we moved along and he- he
loosened up and, but he was very much salute, Military courtesy, you- you didn't get out of line,
you know what I mean. You was a peon, you was a buck private, I'm the boss, I'm the colonel.
So, I mean it was that, that way and that was okay, but I have to tell you, one day Odette told me,
says, “you're going to Switzerland,” and I said, “I am?” She says, “the colonels got leave, he's
going to Switz- wants you to go, we're gonna to go to Switzerland, you’re gonna go to
Switzerland,” and I says, “I am?” She says, “yeah,” but she said, “but you can only cash in 250
American into Swiss dollars,” she says, “you're gonna have to pay your own way as far as the
�hotel, your food, whatever else.” I said, “I ain’t got no money,” and she says, we’ll take care of
that.” So, they took care of that and everything you know and so when the colonel said, “we're
going to Switzerland on leave,” we went to Switzerland and Christ they treat me like as if I was a
general or something, you know, I had that American uniform on, they didn't know I was a… but
we stayed in the same hotel but of course not, he was in maybe some big place, but I was in the
same hotel. We didn't eat together or anything but sometimes we did, and I went my way, and he
went his way you know, and I had my 250 bucks, and he only had 250 America/ Swiss so he was
real reined in too, you know he couldn't go too hard wild, you know. Well, we got into Lucerne
and I thought I'm gonna go down to one of these casinos and I'm gonna work my 250 Swiss into
some real spending money, that was a big mistake. That was a big mistake, but I did get to do,
and Odette told me, you know she said, I said, “I want to buy my dad a nice gift and my sister,” I
said. And she told me, I said “I gonna buy my dad a nice watch,” and she told me what to buy,
she said, “buy a Longines or a Rolex or a Omega,” she give me a good advice, you know what to
do and everything and she really counseled me on what to do. And I never questioned where the
money came from or anything, but they give me the Swiss francs, so I was on the same level
with the colonel as far as money was concerned. But when we got there, we went to I think it
was Lucerne first and then we went to Zürich and then we went to, in the little villages and the
Alps and all that kind of stuff. But we did, really saw Switzerland and when we got in these little
villages and stuff off the beaten path and things, it would be lunchtime or something, you know,
and then we would eat together. We’d go into these little, I don't know what you call ‘em…
Interviewer: Inns or whatever, yeah.
(2:09:17)
�Little inns or whatever you know, and we'd have some dark bread and Swiss cheese and a glass
of wine you know and stuff. And we'd sit together and everything, you know. Here I was, I
didn’t have no, nothing on my sleeves or anything, I was just a buck private. And it was pretty
nice, but they treated me just royally, you know what I mean, I was treated really royally, and it
was really nice. And we saw, we went to Zürich and everything, we- we saw Switzerland.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And there ain't very many guys that was a- a GI that got to Switzerland.
Interviewer: Yeah that's- that's not too common at least not during the war, after the war
it was a little easier but still not- not usually where you went, yeah.
(2:10:03)
Well, it was after the, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah, but even if… yeah.
Yeah, that was my experience with going to Switzerland. Well, I tried to be a good- good driver
and I- I minded my own business, he had a- a kind of a shine on the viscountess that owned thethe villa where we was staying, in other words when the military took over it, she got ousted and
she lived quite close in one of their houses that were used by her help, that her maid.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(2:10:47)
And gardener and all that kind but that's, she housed all them and everything, but she took over
one of those houses. And it was little ways from there the- the chateau and he used to like to seego to see her all the time, some evenings he’d say, “seven o'clock I want you there, we're gonna
go, you know,” usually it was over to the viscountess, and then he'd say, “pick me up at ten
o'clock, eleven o'clock,” or whatever it is. I always made it a point that if he said ten o’clock, I
�got there at 9:30, if he said eleven o'clock I got there at 10:30, I mean I always was waiting there
with the door open when he came out of that- that house where he was with the viscountess. I- II realize that you know this- this is where I belong, I- I- I don't I don't screw up but and I used to
take the car and I drive into Epernay and I had a girlfriend in Epernay. What was her name? I
can’t remember but I can remember her baby's name, she had a little baby, and she was about
four or five years, she was about maybe five years older than I was, but she was a nice lady. And
she’d invite me to her home you know and all that but I never let her ride in the car, she always
wanted to ride in the car, but I never would allow it, no, no. That was, I realized that you know
this is not, that's not right and so I never allowed her to ride in the car. But she had this littlelittle baby he was in a highchair you know, and his name was Christian and once in a while, I
always brought him something you know I mean it would be, whatever I could scrounge up out
of the kitchen, you know K-rations, whatever it was but I always brought him things. And the old
man, I always brought him cigarettes and stuff. And they were very good to me and what really
struck me the first time I- I had dinner there was the little baby was in the highchair you know,
and he had one of these, he wasn't on a bottle, but he has one of them cups, kids cups you know,
instead of milk you know, it was wine. Wine and water- wine and water, I thought holy Christ
the baby's drinking wine and water and it ain't even out of diapers yet, you know but that's the
way they do it.
(2:13:13)
Interviewer: That’s the culture, yeah.
Yeah, and but that- that was nice and, but he spent a lot of time with, he’d like to go over to the
viscountess and some days they'd go in the afternoon, he'd like to play tennis and they had a
tennis court. I take him to the tennis court and the viscountess and they'd hit the ball over the
�fence and then I go chase the balls and throw ‘em back and you know and all that, you know but
I was a stooge, you know. And, but I was a good stooge, I knew my place and I gotta tell you
this, one day it was in the after- it was in the afternoon. He says we're gonna go pick up the
viscountess and they were gonna go someplace, so we went picked up the viscountess and heshe said “well, drove me into Épernay,” well what they did, what she did was she took us to her a
champagne factory she owned the champagne factory in Épernay. It was called the PiperHeidsieck.
(2:14:15)
Interviewer: Okay.
Champagne.
Interviewer: That’s a- that's a big company, yeah.
You know Piper-Heidsieck?
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah that still exists.
Well she owned it, we went there you know and I get out and open the door for ‘em and
everything you know like that and they get out and she says, “come along, come along” to me
you know like that. And I- I looked you know, I looked at the Colonel he gave me a dirty look
you know, and she says, “come along, come along,” and I slammed the car door, and I went and
joined them. He didn't like it, but I was there, she was the one that was calling the shots. Give us
a complete tour from the start of how the champagne is made with the squeeze of grapes- the
grapes and all that things, we got down in the archives you know where the tunnels were and all
that it is and everything you know, very interesting.
(2:15:06)
�We got down in these long tunnels where they and on each, dark as pitch, dark as, you just, you
couldn't see the hand in front of you. On each side is- is these racks and they have these bottles
of champagne on a 45 in these racks and they have these, what they call shakers, and all the guy
does is he goes shakes these bottles all he and goes along. Well, when we were down in these
long tunnels I call them you could see the light of the shaker, what they had was a couple of bare
wires up in the top of the cavern and they had a long wooden pole that came down and on top of
it it had a light and as you slid the pole along on that bare wire, the light lit up, and so while we
was down there we had one of those and we slide it along and- and we'd- we’d see the shaker
was so far away, but she just described you know what- what they were doing and shaking. And
seven years, seven years that that be wine there, well we got the complete tour, and we went
back to where they showed where they bottle it that final thing. And where it was ready to be
sent to market, you know what she does, she gives the colonel a magnum. You know what a
magnum is?
(2:16:40)
Interviewer: A very large bottle.
Then she gives me a magnum and the colonel he, holy Christ he about fell through the floor you
know. I took it and then I cradled that like it was a little baby, you know I didn't want to drop
that sucker, you know. And I thanked her profusely, you know holy Christ, Oh yeah bon jour,
merci beaucoup, I went crazy. She really knew that I appreciated it you know, well as soon as we
got back to the chateau where and I was able to get down to the barn and I got one of the PWs to
build me a wooden box. And we- we packed the wooden box with hay and the magnum, and this
wooden box, all packed in hay. And put a label on it and shipped it home and it- it was it- it
ended up with my wife. She was my girlfriend at the time, and I didn't know it, but she didn't
�open it up ‘till I came home and then we popped the cork when I- when I got home, but a
magnum!
Interviewer: Yeah, that's pretty good.
(2:18:00)
That's pretty good a’nit it? Yeah, well, it all ended when every day they got a messenger it came
from Reims on a motorcycle. I have to tell you this, one day it was there, he comes on this it was
a Harley 45 Military bike that he brought messages from Marines, so I got to talking to him and I
says, “let me try riding that, let me see that” you know, “show me that.” And- and he gave me
enough instruction, you know so I took it out in the field, and I rode it around the pasture, around
you know, and I was riding around like that. I thought I was doing pretty good, you know. So, I
took it out on the road and I was doing pretty good, going down the road, you know but all of a
sudden I was going through this village between Epernay and where we were, and somebody
backed out on some side street in front of me and I put on the brakes and I went right over the
handle bars and I, it was cava- or cobblestone streets you know, ruins, I was skinned up pretty
good. But that was my end of my motorcycle, but the car- the bike was all right it didn't get
banged up. But that was my end of my motorcycle.
Interviewer: Yep.
So, I never rode a motorcycle, that was it.
Interviewer: But did that guy bring in the news on who was going home or that kind of
thing?
(2:19:24)
That was what it, yeah well it was the day before, it was the next day we were supposed to go to
Patton's funeral and I knew that and the guy comes from Reims with the messages and stuff and
�Odette calls me and she says, “we got orders here that,” and she told me about what the orders
where you know that I would, had orders to go home. And she- she says, “you're not gonna go
home are you?” And I said, “I sure as hell am,” I said, “why wouldn't I?” She said, “why would
you wanna go? You got it nice here.” I said- I said, “I only want to be in the Army as long as I
have to be,” I said, “I'm a draftee, I'm not no volunteer,” and she tried to, they tried to convince
me and then the colonel tried, he actually in person, he told me he says, “oh I'll drop… I’ll have
you flown home,” he says, “you’ll go to a cigarette camp.” He said, “you'll be there for two
months trying to you know for to get a boat.” And I knew that, and I- I- I was weighing all this
you know, and he was telling me you know that he would do this for me, you know and all this
and all that. And I was weighing all that, you know I was thinking about it. And I only had just
so much time to, I had to say you know, I'm going home and so I made the decision that I'm
going home. Whether it was wrong or right I to this today I- I figure it was a draw.
Interviewer: Okay.
Because what it was back home, what I thought it was gonna be was not, you know what I mean,
I thought it was gonna be like it was when I left, it sure as hell wasn't.
(2:21:19)
Interviewer: Before we get there and take you back home, I have a couple other questions.
One of them is, you mentioned when you were talking about the- the colonel of the 1153rd
and so forth and you said that you eventually got back at him.
Oh yes that's when we were up in Germany, we had a non-fraternization, you couldn't talk to the,
if you had to because you had to ask directions or something, but you couldn't fraternize, you
couldn't- you couldn't go and visit them at their house and whatever you know. Nonfraternization meant you didn't associate you just, they were off limits. Well, when we was up in
�Germany waiting for the British to relieve us, we didn't have no association with the officers,
they were off by themselves, we was in another area, we never seen them. Our direction was all
non coms and they never even bothered because they- they were, no reason why they had to
throw their weight around. Well one day this one of these captains and I forget what his name
was, I think it was Hernandez said, “we got to go to…” it was 16th Corps headquarters. And
“okay,” so we drove to 16th Corps headquarters, the colonel that was in charge of our outfit had
been court-martialed. And he was under house arrest in this town in, where the 16th Corps was,
we were going there to bring him some cigarettes and- and a couple of magazines or something,
whatever we had you know. So, I didn't know this, but we go there you know and there’s this
colonel under house arrest and he was in this house and he was up maybe on a second floor or
something and so our only contact with him was he’d, with the window open, and we talked to
him through- through the window. Well, here I was down there throwing cigarettes up too him,
and he was under house arrest and I was the SOB down there that he- he knew, I thought the
Lord sure works in weird places, crazy way doesn't it?
(2:24:13)
Interviewer: What was he court-martialed for?
Fraternization, he was shacked up with some woman in Germany there.
Interviewer: Oh, aha.
We had a S3 his name, was, what was his name? He was the S3, he was a major, what was his
name? I can't remember, well anyway him and the colonel didn't get along again and this major,
what was his- well anyway he thought that he deserved a promotion to lieutenant [colonel],
everybody herd, but the colonel no, no he didn't like him, they didn't get along well. So, this
major that was the S3 in headquarter squealed on him, and that was what it- what it was, and
�everybody thought that SOB for squealing on ‘em you know, but I don't know I guess, maybe
that’s…
Interviewer: You didn't- you didn’t mind.
Huh.
Interviewer: You didn't mind.
(2:25:09)
I earned the oven, I couldn't believe it you know here I am throwing cigarettes up to him you
know, and he knew who I was yeah.
Interviewer: On a different note, can you tell me what happened to Captain Spalding?
Pardon?
Interviewer: Can you tell me what happen to your Captain because he didn't come home.
Oh well all of a sudden Monday he never showed up, you know they- they transferred him out.
Interviewer: Okay.
Well, he never should have been in that anyway because he just was not, he was not, you know,
he was not capable of the position that he was in. A captain or anything I mean he- he was there
because he was a big shot.
Interviewer: Yeah.
In civilian life you know, and he was a big contractor that supposed to be you know, knows the
business and the contractor, construction business and which would be in the construction
business in the Army. But one day he didn't show up, I tried to find out what happened to him,
you know, and I crossed, I'd ask all around everyone I know, you know, what happened to,
where… you know best information that I got was that he was shipped to Antwerp. And that he
was a drinker and- and he got drunk one night and he fell into the fireplace.
�Interviewer: Oh.
That was what I was, that's what I was told, I- I never revealed that to anybody but that's what I
was told, so that, that's all I can tell you.
(2:26:44)
Interviewer: Okay and then did you have another story about Captain Hernandez?
Oh yeah, he would get you in a scrape just too sweet in other words when you was out with him,
he was a gun collector you know I told you about these towns we would go in you know and
they had to turn in all their weapons into the burgomaster then, we'd go into a town and he was
interested in he, where’s the burgomaster? He'd get in that room where all the guns were turned
in that the Germans you know, I'd be there with my arms out like this and I’d walk out of there
like as if I had a whole load of firewood you know. Rifles, everything that you could think of
you know, well once in a while I'd pick up one myself you know something that interests me.
But he- he’d have the whole back end of the command car full of these guns, well then his
problem was that he had to get them shipped home.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(2:27:40)
Well certain of ‘em would go on record, a 75 caliber or shell case, but some of ‘em were too long
they needed a 90 millimeter.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Shell case so then we had to find an outfit that had Patton tanks that had 90 millimeter guns and
then he would, once we’d find, he'd go all over looking for, find one you know and he’d dig up
all the information he could get to find out where there was an outfit, tank outfit that had 90
millimeter or Patton tanks. And when he’d find one, he, didn't give a damn whether they, he'd
�hall into one of them tanks and he'd get up in there and he'd pitch out the tubes out of there and
I’d pick them up and put them in the damn command car, you know. And then the tank’s got a
whole bunch of explosive shells in the damn thing, you know, he didn't give a damn, but I’ll
have to tell you how he went around. He had a paratrooper’s wire stock carbine just like what I
had, only had a wire stock. And it had a sling over like this and he carried it on his back, then he
was from- he was from New Mexico. You know how in the movies they had these- these
cowboys that had these low slung [unintelligible] quick-draw things you know with the leather
thing around ‘em with all the bullets in it you know and everything like that, that's what he wore.
Strapped to his leg like and he had a P-38 in that- in that quick draw holster, that's how he went
around. That was the way he- he- he- he went that was- was it, I always would get him, you
know, what the hell are you going around with that thing for? You’re gonna find some German
standing in the middle of the street gonna have a gunfight with you. He'd say, “when I fall out of
that Jeep, I want to come up with something’ smoking,” that was his comment. But he'd get
anywhere near the front he wanted to go, you know what I mean, I said, “nah, I'll stay here you
go ahead.” And sometimes he would, you know when we was on the Roer River he'd go there all
the time you know and that's, you know that's where the action was. I was a little rock then, I- I
would you know I’d tag along but I- I wasn’t out in front. But he was always looking for trouble,
he was that kind of guy, you know. But he was- he was able to handle it, I mean if there was any
guy that you- you got in a scrape with and you really need somebody you know to maneuver, he
was the guy. I mean there was nobody in the whole outfit other than him that I would have
wanted to take orders from. They all were, most of them are were shoe salesmen.
�Interviewer: Right, okay so now to go back to the main line of your story, so you finally, so
rather than going to Patton’s funeral or staying on, you ship home. So how long did you
spend in a cigarette camp?
(2:30:53)
I- I was shipped to Chesterfield.
Interviewer: Okay.
That's the cigarette camp that I was at and I was there quite a while but the thing I can remember,
and it- it was not too bad, you know we didn't do nothing. I mean we just waited for the boat, but
because I was a driver, and they did have some equipment around there that if you wanted to do
some work you know, and I- I was one that didn't want to lay around. I would- I would do
whatever was doable. Well, they knew I was a driver and so one day they- they said, “we're
gonna give a bunch of them a weekend pass to Paris.” Well Paris the is quite a ways, and it they
designate me the driver, well when you drive, you're the boss. You could guy have officer- bars
to your wrist, it wouldn't make no difference you- you was the one that run the show. And- and
so I had about probably twenty guys get in a 6x6 and I was the driver and we drove to Paris, and
of course the Big Shot you know they want to drive- ride in the front, my friend, whoever, I
forget who it was, but I had a friend, he drives- he rides in the front and they- they- they get in
the back. And so, I was- I was the one that called the shots. So, we drive to, and that’s quite a
ways you know and 6x6 you know you're, you get ‘er up to 50 you're doing pretty good, you
know. And we got to Paris and they have places where you, Military park and they were under
guard and everything you know, but there would be outfits from all over you know that you
could see their outfit on their bumper of their- of their trucks or whatever it was. And so, we
spent the weekend in- in Paris and of course they had places in Paris where Military could get
�their, could eat but no place to sleep, you had to buy your own place. So, we didn’t have no
money so we just bummed and caroused all night, you know. And we -we saw Paris real well,
you know, I had a friend and I and we went our way and everything and some of them just got
drunk and some guys whatever you know, whatever they gonna do and I went to the Louvre and
all the things you know, the Seine River and all over and one thing I do remember because we
was carousing all night there was a- a milkman it was a horse and wagon deal in Paris and when
I saw that this was a milk man I thought holy Christ I gotta have- I gotta have a bottle of milk.
And so, we stopped him and we each bought a bottle- bottle of milk. And we paid him with
cigarettes. Well, there they have them as, you know how a food jar has that wire business on it,
you know and the, well this had that wire business only in a cork, and that's the way it was
bottled, and it had the cork in it like that. And so, we, my friend and I we each bought a bottle of
milk from the guy and holy Christ that really was- was really good you know. I hadn’t had a
bottle of milk in three years, so we bought this bottle of milk but that was the thing I remember
about Paris is having a bottle of milk. But and we went, you know had a- had a good time and
neither of us were drinkers or anything so you know it was no problem. But when I got there,
when I told them, I says, “now we're leaving at certain time,” I give them, “three o'clock Sunday
afternoon you be here, otherwise you're gonna walk back.” Well, that was a bunch of baloney,
you know that wasn't true at all because I know that that it wasn't gonna happen, but I told- I laid
the law down you know. Well, a lot of them didn't, they got back you know, but there was
always a couple of three/ four stragglers you know that didn't show up. And the guys would be
there waiting you know and then me, I- I- I wanted to go back with all of ‘em, I didn't want to
leave anybody. So I- I had the problem of pacifying the guys that was there, they were anxious to
go and they were tired- tired of waiting and all this you know and I- I finally waited them out and
�here comes the guy drunk and he's staggering and you know and everybody loaded him on the
truck and- and you know we finally made all the guys that was supposed to been there, did
number I think about twenty, and then we back to the [unintelligible] But that was a big deal,
Camp or…
Interviewer: Chesterfield.
Chesterfield.
Interviewer: Alright.
(2:36:02)
And when I did get a- a ship it was a victory ship, victory, pretty new one. I forget what the name
of it was, but it was pretty new, and it wasn't a troop transport or anything, but we were able to
lay on the deck and up on deck and soak up the sunshine and watch the, you know the ocean and
it was a nice trip going back.
Interviewer: But that was in the middle of winter by then or? Cause you get…
Yeah, I got home, and it was in- it was in the winter.
Interviewer: Yeah, January is when you got home, I think so, yeah.
Well, when we got to New York or they dumped us off, I don't remember much but they just told
us to go to the nearest, they had, picked out where the nearest Army camp replacement where
you could be mustered out.
Interviewer: Right.
(2:36:59)
And I was, it was down the, I thought it was a Great Lakes Naval…
Interviewer: Station in Chicago or…
But it was down there by Chicago, but it was… what the hell was the name of it?
�Interviewer: Well, it was Fort Sheridan which is the Army base.
There you Fort Sheridan yeah that's where it was. And I was all alone there and that's where I
was mustered out and I got about 150 bucks and I went into Chicago, that wasn't too far and I- I
got a train to Muskegon in um, it was a night, it was at night I must have got home about, in
Muskegon about maybe ten o'clock or so at night. And I got pegged into that, it's now a tourist
resort thing down there on Western Avenue by the Anaconda or Amazon and I walked down
Western Avenue to, I was looking for a telephone and I got down to Terrace Street and there was
a Greyhound station there and I went in there and I called my sister, that was the only one I knew
that I looked up in the phone book. And her husband came and picked me up and I spent the
night there with my sister, but this is the big surprise, I thought everything was gonna be the
same as when I left, it wasn't- it wasn't. No, my dad- my dad was not one to write or anything so
this, I didn't know anything about this, he remarried while I was- I was gone. My brother had
come home, he'd come home probably six months or so before I did and my dad had bought a
tavern in Holton and they were living in Holton and they weren't at where I used to live on, you
know, my dad still owned the house, but they weren't living there, and they moved out of there
and everything but that wasn't there anymore. So, I was looking for my clothes and my things
you know everything, they were all gone, there wasn’t a damn thing. Not one thing, you know
kids have…
Interviewer: Yeah sure.
(2:39:18)
Some things you know I got a baseball glove, and you know we had something, not a thing, there
wasn't a damn thing so they must have thought I was not gonna come back or something and
they dumped it all when they moved. And they had it's a very small place next to the tavern there
�in Houghton and my dad had got on the sauce. And he was not himself at all, but I understood
too, you know that he was alone when I was taken away and my brother was gone, he was alone.
And I know what alone, living alone was like, I've lived on almost for six years. It ain't good so
I, my dad was a very good dad. I never faulted him for getting married, I never faulted him what
he did, and I- I always thought he was a great dad, but it wasn't the way I- I assumed it was
gonna be, it was tough. But my brother he kind of took to the bar business, he liked it, I didn't II- I couldn't get far enough away from it, and I didn't know what to do. I was up in Holton and I
didn't have no car, I didn't have no clothes, I didn't have nothing. So, it was kind of tough and I
couldn't go nowhere but my dad would let me once in a while take his car, he had a- he had a nic
car when we left it in 1941 but he must have traded it off for something and he had a kind of, it
was a coupe of some kind, it wasn't much of a car at all, but once in while he let me take it, but
you know Holton is quite a ways from Muskegon but my brother while he was home he made amet a friend that was in the G- he was an officer, it was a friend that lived up that way and they
made, he made friends with him and they were gonna go to business college on the GI Bill, and
they had made arrangements for this school down in Battle Creek. And so I- I said, “well how
about me going along too,” and this little coupe he had that was the car he had, I could still, the
three of us could get in it. And so I convinced him that I could help him with the rental and all
that kind of stuff you know and so I was included and we rented a upstairs of a house in Battle
Creek not too far from the school. And we went to Business College and on the GI Bill and my
brother he went and then this, his name was Ward- Ward what? That was the other guy, Ward, I
don't remember his last name. And so I went to Business College and- and then when the term
ended by my brother he went his way, and I went my way and everything and I went back to
Muskegon and I boarded at a- at a house on John Street and I- I just boarded there and I ate all
�my meals and everything but I didn't want to establish myself or anything. My dad had this
apartment above the house where we used to live but I didn't wanna buy a lot of furniture, buy
furniture and everything like that so I didn't but I went to work for John Wood, they made gas
pumps and I worked in the- in the cost accounting department. It was alright I learned a lot but I
didn't like it and this Ward that I told you about that we went to school with and business school
with, he kept in contact with me and one day he told me he says, he got a job with, it was called a
Michigan Foundry Supply Company and the owner of the Supply Company also owned a
foundry, it was called Weiner Foundry. He says, “they’re looking for somebody for their office
why don’t you go see it.” So, I went there and I- I got the job and what it was is I was gonna be
the billing clerk and what I did, I did the billing and kept track of the production and so forth and
I'd yell a lot with the Continental Expediters is, that was the biggest customer of the- the foundry.
But I worked about just a desk away from where the purchasing agent worked and so I knew
pretty much all that, what was going on in the purchasing. And he would have days off and
maybe get sick or sometimes vacation so and then I’d take over as, in the purchasing. Well he
quit one day, he was from the south, he was a southerner and he went back south and so I just
stepped over and I took over the purchasing and I and I don't mean to brag but I was a hell of a
lot better person you can imagine than he was, but I- I learned the purchasing business. Well, I
wasn't- I wasn't married or anything I was single and I- I was just bumming around I was lose
you know, and I just couldn't settle down I didn't know you know. When I came home my
girlfriend that I had been corresponding with and been had before the war, she was going to
college, she was down in Ann Arbor, she was going to U of M. I went down there once and we
went to a football game, but you know she's down there and I'm here, you know So it didn't wewe just fell apart for about five years, I was here- here and I went my way, and she went hers. I- I
�don't know how the hell we got back together but I think it was by- by mail. She when- when we
got back to finding out what she was doing and so forth she was working for DuPont down in- in
where was it…. Waynesboro, Virginia in their orlon plant and she graduated from the U of M in
a- in chemistry, a major in chemistry, smart gal holy Christ she was smart. Well, we got writing
back and forth you know, pretty soon she says, “well why don’t you come down and- and visit.”
Meet down there you know, I said what the hell, so I went down, and I spent a- a- a few days
down there with her. She arranged for have me to stay in a house pretty close to where she lived
and with some other people that worked at DuPont. She took me through the orlon plant at
DuPont and showed me all around down in the- in Virginia there you know. And the letter
writing continued, you know, she didn't like being away from home, she'd never been away
from, out of Muskegon and her life other than when she went to college, she didn’t like being so
way, afar from her family. So, it wasn't hard to convince her to you know she ought to come
back to Muskegon. I wasn't even, I didn't even have a job because I'd quit, and she came back to
Muskegon and we got married. I didn't have a job or a damn thing and we- we moved into where
I used to live when I was, before the war in this apartment where my dad and my brother and I
bache’d it. But that- that worked out but that’s the way it was, but it was tough, it was tough, I
that was the worst years of my life, even though I was single and free and everything I, it was the
worst time in my life. I had no connection anywhere.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(2:48:30)
And I had no, for so long I had no decent clothes, when we were down in Battle Creek our noon
hours were spent, we'd have lunch it was always at a Chinese place, we always had at the
Chinese place. Then we would go around to all the stores like Montgomery Ward's, Penny’s,
�Sears and Roebuck, all the stores that would have clothes, and we would see whether they had
any, anything that we could wear or anything. And the clerks in the store they got to know us
Christ and everything, some of them were very cooperative you know we just tell them what size
you know we have, and they'd stick it underneath the counter for us. And you know a shirt was,
we didn’t have no shirts, we had GI shirts that's why you never seen very many people that had a
complete uniform because they wore ‘em out, you know. I had a blouse or like a- like a jacket
and that's about all I had left, you know but all the rest of it I- I wore it out, you know. And
eventually you know when you get a- a shirt and you maybe get a, some socks and you get some,
stuff you know, and then you get a sweatshirt or a sweater or a jacket or something, you know.
And eventually you know you get a- enough so that you can look like a civilian again, you know
and that's the way it was you know.
Interviewer: Now after you got married then did you kind of get focused and find regular
work or what’d you do?
(2:50:10)
Well I tell ya, this is what, a godsend, when I was working at this Weiner Foundry, there was a
young engineer that came one day when I was in purchasing and they were, they had suddenly
got hooked up with a pipeline, the Panhandle Eastern Pipeline and they had a lot of gas. And
they were out pedaling, they wanted to get some customers and this Weiner Foundry used a lot
of, it was- it was, what was it? It was heavy oil, in other words if it- if it wasn’t heated it would
get like a lard.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And they used it for their core ovens and their annealing ovens and stuff, so they used a lot of
that heavy oil. He came there one day, and he was peddling his- his gas and I was very good to
�him and everything you know. And I said, he wanted to see you know the foundry, how- how
much we used the field oil and all this, heavy oil and stuff. So, I took him and showed him
around you know, I spent a lot of time with him, I showed him where you know how- how, you
know much, how many core ovens and how many annealing ovens and all this stuff you know
and everything. And he- he tried to convince me to switch everything, over to, that's a big job
and it’s a lot of money to switch over to natural gas. We didn’t but I was very nice to him and
everything you know. Well, when I got married, I knew all these guys at the Continental that I
dealt with when I was at Weiner’s. And fortunately, the chief deputy person, at the Continental at
the time was named Morris Ramsey and they always thought I was his son. So, whenever I was
mentioned Ramsey, the association was with, was him. So, I- I went to work for Continental, I
was gonna, I thought I was gonna be a buyer in the Continental but no I didn't get a buyer job, I
was, what I did was I reconciled vendor’s invoices with a purchasing order, in other words with a
purchase order. If they purchase it and they said it was gonna cost a dollar, and they charge a
dollar and a quarter on the invoice, they didn't pay it, there had to be some reconciliation, I mean
I had to be the approver, say well no, you- you pay a dollar, you pay a dollar and a quarter. I was
the one, it was a hassle you know, I mean they was- they was always after me for approve,
approve this, you know they’re a good outfit, I said, “bull shit this is the price of the purchasing
order they- they took it, that's what they get,” you know. So, I was in that kind of a, I didn't like
it, one day one of the guys that worked at the desk next to me or so, he was an older guy, he went
to one of these lunch deals that they have at noon, you know it was the Kiwanis Club.
(2:53:35)
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Or whatever the heck it was, well he met the purchasing agent of the gas company at this thing,
they got to talking apparently and this purchasing agent at the gas said he was looking for
somebody to- to work with, to come in and- and work in the, at the gas company purchasing. So,
when he came back, he told me about that, you know so I- so I, he said, “you ‘oughta go down
and see it.” So, I did, and he hired me, and he was an older guy, and he was interested in retiring
you know, he was- he was on his way out. But when he hired me you know, I wondered what the
hell they hired me, what I was gonna do you know. Well, when I asked him, you know what they
want me to do, he says, “well just learn the gas company business,” he says, “just learn the gas
company business.” I says, “how do I do that?” And he says, “well,” they was in charge of all the
stock rooms and all the things that were they, stored all the gallons, that was part of the
purchasing department where they had these guys that- that took care of the stock ones and so he
said, “go over to the stock room and see what we buy and all that kind of stuff,” gave me kind of
real free hand, you know. So, I went over there you know, and I learned, well this is what they
buy, and this is what you buy, and I- I learned you know, this is the kind of stuff that they do
buy, and this is what it is and this is what it is. And I visited you know so pretty soon the guys in
the stock room they realized that I was the one that was pretty much, the guy never no said that I
was the boss or anything like that, you know but I would- I would do this, I would say to ‘em,
they had an antiquated thing it was, they handled appliances too like ranges and water heaters
and stuff. And they had this antiquated thing that they'd stack it up and they’d crank it and it'd go
up and they’d pushed it off and then- then they’d un-crank it and it’d go down in. I said, “where
the hell did you get that thing?” “We’ve had it forever,” you know I said, “you need a forklift
truck,” and they said, “yeah we’ve wanted one for a long time.” And I said, “I'll get your forklift
truck,” they thought I was blowing smoke. I got them a forklift truck and then every time you
�know I tell them something you know well we had a hire Dap [?] Truck and Crane Company to
unload the- the pipe whenever we got it in, loads of big heavy parts and stuff that was out in my
yard in the Heights. I thought that's crazy, we gotta have a- a- a lift of our own, you know. I'll get
you a hydro lift, they thought I was blowing smoke again you know, but in conjunction with the
use of the dist- of the distribution department, the guy that run that Joe Buck, he knew this would
be handy to have around too me because they had a lot of heavy stuff too. So, between the- the
Joe Buck and I we got a hydro lift. So, they got to know that I wasn't just blowing smoke all the
time and they realized that his name was Ken Gable that he had kind of turned the running of the
stock rooms in to, over to me. So, I learned pretty much the basic stuff, I knew what, when I was
buying something, I knew what the hell it was. So, any… let things loosen up a little bit and then
pretty soon I was buying stuff and the- the vendors that came in and things you know, he, they
would make a courtesy call to him and- and so forth, but then when they wanted the order and
got down to really, really, they come to me. And I was- I was really the one that was doing, but I
never signed my name on anything he was always the and I was often there when he was on
vacation or sick or someplace he wasn't there, I put his name, I never, anything that ever letter I
wrote where I was- I was doing, it was always went through him and it was his okay and
everything and, but they know eventually you know who- who was the one that was buying this
stuff and anything. So, I was for years I was- I was really the one and he didn't- he didn't pay any
attention to what was going on or anything I was, I was it. Just go see Ramsey, go see Laurin,
that's he’d tell the vendors and they all knew that you know. And I was a lot different than he
was, he was a, he had a lot of them that these vendors had him in his pocket, in their pocket you
know. I wasn't that way at all, but I had to go along as long as he was the person.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�(2:58:50)
But eventually he retired and then the manager of the outfit didn't like me, I was too- too
aggressive. And he didn't like me, but he knew that he had to okay me because I was the only
one that, that can replace the you know. So, I was appointed, and they had a picture in the paper
that, you know I was now being appointed the… I got a picture that was in a paper that I was the
first thing I knew. I made a hell of a lot of changes, these guys that were in his pocket now, they
you know this is change, this is- this is different. But I- I run this real tight ship and I- I really, I
got to be very what you would call influential or I had a lot of- a lot of weight. And because I
also had the responsibility of the maintenance of the buildings and that was also part of it, but I- I
worked very well with- with the other operating people. And I'll tell you how I operated, and I
knew how this- this works, I got to know the operating people real well but the vendors had to go
through me to get me them. And something happened or something that looked good to me and I
thought they should be, I would bring the vendor this, introduce them and I made a relationship
with them. But the vendors always knew that they had to see me first, and I brought them some
good- good advice and some good materials and things. So, I had a good relationship with them
and this one particular one, this is- this is interesting, they had a very big expansion program at
the time where they were going to know all different small towns like Whitehall and Montague,
Shelby, Hart, all that kind of, so there's a lot going on. Well, and so they had to work a lot of
Saturdays and overtime and everything. Well, this- this one Saturday this Joe Buck he was in
charge of the distribution, this, all this stuff, this construction and everything. He- he was, his
family they were scheduled to go to their cottage or someplace up north and they- they had
planned this for some time, they're gonna spend the weekend or something. And he had- had to
work, he said that he had to work because of some big project or something going on. And he
�was pretty perturbed that you know, he was because his whole family was disappointed. I told
Joe, I said “Joe you go, I'll take care of things.” He looked at me he said, “no I can't do that.” I- I
said, “Joe, I'll take care of it, don't worry about it, I'll take care of it.” So, I convinced him that I
would take care of it and don't worry about it I'll see that everything is all set Monday morning
you will never know that nothing happened. I never mentioned anything in Monday morning I
nev- I never go near him or anything like that, you know everything is perfect, going along you
know, he comes to me says, “well how did it go?” “Went okay,” and then he just starts asking
me questions, you know about you know how did this go, you know and I said, “well okay.” And
I made no big deal of it you know. So pretty soon they got to know that if they wanted something
done just let me, let me know and I took care of it. And I got into a lot of things that I shouldn't
have been, but Joe was very- very int- he was a good- good guy to operate with.
Interviewer: Okay.
(3:02:59)
I'll tell you one deal that really made- made them take notice, this engineer that came to see me
when I was down at Weiner Foundry, they made him the district manager after this one that
didn't like me, he- he was made this district manager, so he knew me from the time that I had
met him down at the Weiner Foundry.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And so, I had a better relationship, well anywhere I’ll tell ya what happened, this is- this is one
big deal that, they was buying gasoline and- and I was responsible for buying it. And the stock
department they went to the stock department to get their gasoline, the stock people fill the gas
tanks when they needed gas and so they kept track of it. Ol’ pump that didn't know they had a
500-gallon storage tank and was paying eighteen cents a gallon for gasoline at the time. And I
�couldn’t see that at all and so I worked up all the thing, what it would cost to put in a tenthousand-gallon tank, new pump with a- a- with a printed- printer in it that printed what gas was
taken out of it and all this, it was up to date, you know. And what was gonna happen was that I
was gonna be able to buy gas for nine cents a gallon instead of eighteen, and I worked this all up,
all the, how much it was gonna cost to do it and where, everything, but I had to go to Joe because
he was gonna be responsible after I just worked out because his night crew that was in the garage
was gonna have to dispense the gas at night. And it was gonna be in his area and the gas pump
and everything was gonna be moved from the stock area to- to his area. So, it was kind of a joint
deal, but I had everything all worked out down to the nickel, you know, the payoff time was
gonna be two years and it would be all paid off you know. So, my boss which- which he was still
there then and- and this Joe Buck was in, the head of the distribution department, they went to
they, the budget meeting that they had where they developed the budget that Muskegon was
gonna supply government, ask what money they wanted for it in Detroit which was the ones that
run the company or own the compay, it went through just like that and they…
Cut off at end of video (3:05:57)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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RamseyL0679V
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Ramsey, Laurin
Date
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2008-01
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Ramsey, Laurin (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Hartman was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1919. He graduated high school in 1937 and joined the Michigan Army National Guard in 1938, assigned to the 126th Infantry Regiment, Service Company. His company’s task was to transport troops and provide them with ammunition, food, and clothing. He began as a truck driver and later became a Supply Sergeant. His regiment went on maneuvers that lasted up to two months, traveling to places such as Texas, Louisiana, and Alabama. When Pearl Harbor was bombed, Hartman was in Jackson, Mississippi to see a football game and was ordered to go back to camp immediately. He was then shipped to Fort Devens, Massachusetts for about a month before taking a train back to Frisco, Texas. After that, he was shipped to Angel Island and boarded the Lurline to head for Australia. He landed in Adelaide and then took a train to Brisbane. Later, he flew to Port Moresby where he marched across the Owen Stanley Mountains and saw jungle combat as a platoon sergeant. Hartman suffered from malaria during battle, and the sickness continued to recur every month for about five years. Hartman later was flown to Papua New Guinea. He made a beach landing in Saidor, where he experienced a few skirmishes before arriving at Aitape a month or two later. At Aitape, he was shot in the stomach presumably by a sniper. He was hospitalized on base before being shipped back to Australia and eventually the United States, where he spent time at several hospitals in San Antonio, Illinois, and finally back home in Battle Creek, Michigan.
Contributor
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McCauslin, Kelly (Interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/701d72bb521d7dd482e0b9bd5bca0f61.mp4
b2de105e582bb5a20fd9effbe1e4acb5
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8325d5cfbd4525d7a48a928bbbb47519.pdf
3420f92c7e1a26e3c9b1c0434452208a
PDF Text
Text
Jedlowski, Ray
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: Ray Jedlowski
Length of Interview: (1:10:31)
Interviewed by: Steve Hammond
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “Hello, my name is Steve Hammond and I’m here representing the Grand
Valley State University's Veterans History Project and today we have the privilege of
sitting here interviewing Mr. Ray Jedlowski. He’s from Caledonia which is actually kind of
close to Kentwood but anyway, Ray thank you for letting us interview you and–”
Well thank you Steve.
Interviewer: “We’ll start out right away with when you were born and where you were
born.” (00:32)
I was born in 1942 in Portsmouth, Virginia and at that time my dad was a chief in the Navy so
I’m kind of a Navy brat and this kind of disappointed when I chose the Air Force versus the
Navy. I just told him “Dad it’s too much water, I don’t want to do that, I want to fly.” So anyway
that’s kind of how that happened, went to Fordson high school in Dearborn, Michigan, graduated
1962 and at that time you couldn’t find a job cutting a lawn, cleaning gutters and there were
really no opportunities for me when I graduated from high school and I recall having an old car
that my dad got a good price on and it would hurt me very much that I had to ask him for gas
money time and time again, and what made it worse is he’d always give me that $10 with a smile
and at that time I decided, you know it’s time for me to do something else because I couldn’t find
a job. So I decided that I would go down to the recruiting office to see what was available.
Interviewer: “So, I’m gonna just stop you right there for just a second because I want to go
back further.”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Okay.
Interviewer: “Okay, you were born in Portsmouth, Virginia? What was your mother’s and
father’s names?”
Raymond and Helen Jedlowski.
Interviewer: “Did you have any brothers or sisters?”
No, only child.
Interviewer: “Okay, good and you said your dad was a Navy man? What’d he do 20 years
in it, 30 years in it?”
He spent ten and a half years in the Navy and oftentimes he’d always assign a sailor to me on the
destroyer while he was attending a function or something and dad would tell him “Make sure
he’s here when I get back.”
Interviewer: “You were actually on a destroyer?” (2:30)
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “Oh, would you go out to sea or were you just at port?”
No, in port. Yeah, he was stationed in Virginia Beach, the naval center there and so yeah been on
a lot of ships. I don’t remember a lot of it but I remember some of it.
Interviewer: “What– Was your dad in during the Korean war?”
Second world war.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “He was in the second world war? Oh okay, was he in any battles at all?”
Oh yes, but dad didn’t like to talk about it much, so.
Interviewer: “Do you know which ones they were or what ship he was on?”
I had to pull things out of him and every time I would ask him things about that he would
become sad, so I just stopped, I decided if he wanted to tell me then he would. So I didn’t press
him anymore than that.
Interviewer: “Did he ever tell you before he passed away? No he didn’t? Okay, was he at
Pearl Harbor at all or was he–”
No, he was out to sea– I don’t know where but it was not near Pearl Harbor at the time.
Interviewer: “Okay, well we can all say thanks to your dad for his service, I mean I know
he’s not here or anything.” (3:44)
It just seems like the whole family was, I mean my dad’s uncle was in the Army and all his
brothers were and all my cousins were all in the service and it brings me to the point of these
draft dodgers. These ones that would want to go to Canada and not serve the country, well if you
can live with that the rest of your life I guess that’s your choice, I can’t. I thought it was my duty
as it was my dad’s to do whatever it takes to protect the freedom of this country because as we
all know freedom is not free.
Interviewer: “That is true, and thank you very much too I appreciate that.”
You’re very welcome, I’d go again if they needed me.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “I would too, I don't blame you. You mentioned an uncle that was in the
Army during World War II?”
Yes and he was under Patton.
Interviewer: “Oh what was his name?”
Walter Jedlowski, he was a tank commander and when they went to Sicily and Palermo–
Interviewer: “Okay, now we come up to– You’re born in ‘42 you said, and okay you were
stationed in– Your dad was stationed in Virginia and you were living in Virginia. What
made you come up to Michigan?”
Well my dad at that time just told us all he wanted a place to call home and didn’t want to be out
to sea all that length of time, especially just when he had a son and so he just decided to get out
of the Navy and then we moved from Virginia Beach to Dearborn Heights, Michigan and bought
a home there.
Interviewer: “Well I mean did you have family up in Michigan?” (5:30)
Yes, yes his brothers and sisters were in Dearborn in the Garden City area.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright cool. Alright so what did your dad do for work after he got out
of the service?”
He– In the service he was in diesel, in the engine room was his job there he oversaw the running
and keep the ship going and keeping it running properly, and then after that he decided he
wanted to become a mechanic and went to mechanic school.
Interviewer: “Wow and what did your mother do?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
My mom worked at Burroughs Corporation in Livonia, Michigan and they made things for the
cars and things like that, circuit boards and things.
Interviewer: “Were they like a subsidiary like the big three automakers or were they just–”
Not at that time, no. I’m glad she worked there because they had a beautiful resort for the
employees only called “Burroughs farm” where you could play golf, swimming, you could camp
out there and really, really cool. Yeah in Kensington Park area, Michigan.
Interviewer: “Okay, and you said you graduated at Portsmouth High School?”
Yeah, Fordson in Dearborn.
Interviewer: “In Dearborn, okay how was that down there, growing up in Detroit?”
When I was there?
Interviewer: “Yeah.” (7:00)
Great, ask me what it is now.
Interviewer: “No, I won’t, I know about Detroit so– But anyway, were you a big sports
fan?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Any of those teams down there?”
Well I played football.
Interviewer: “Oh did you?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Yes.
Interviewer: “What’d you play?”
Running back.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright.”
I was as fast as I appear, I didn’t weigh much so we did well.
Interviewer: “So you a big Tiger fan, Lions fan, Red Wings?”
I like the Red Wings and disappointed in the Tigers but [unintelligible]
Interviewer: “How about back then did you go to any games at old Tiger Stadium with
your dad?” (7:40)
Yes, I did yeah. My god those were such enjoyable memories.
Interviewer: “Wasn’t it though?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Who did you see playing, anybody famous?”
I saw Al Kaline and Norm Cash, Freehan the catcher, Northrup and Mickey Lolich.
Interviewer: “Good ‘68 crew.”
Yeah.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Then of course I see you’re a big Michigan fan, was your family all into
Michigan football back then?”
My whole family’s just crazy Michigan, they just bleed blue I’m telling you, and then my dad’s
aunts and uncles of course State. So here we go, that lit the candle, so here it goes, here it goes.
Interviewer: “Yeah, I am the same way mom’s a State fan and brother’s a Michigan fan so
yup.”
Yeah, but you know what we have to be opposites because there wouldn’t be a rivalry would
there?
Interviewer: “There you go.”
It’s gotta happen.
Interviewer: “But it’s better than Notre Dame and Ohio State right?” (8:40)
I’m for anybody that beats Ohio State.
Interviewer: “Anyway we’ll get back to that stuff but anyway– Okay, so you graduated
high school ‘62 and then you decided to enlist in the Air Force?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then you mentioned before but go over again why you decided
that instead of any other branch.”
Well, actually just a vivid– When I walked to the recruiter’s office a long hallway and I seen
signs that said “Navy, Marines, Coast Guard.” And I saw just walking straight down the hallway
�Jedlowski, Ray
was the Air Force recruiter, I said “I guess I’m meant to go there.” So I just walked in the Air
Force recruiters office and here I am.
Interviewer: “So and then you said your dad had comments about that?”
Yeah, I didn’t even tell my dad so I come home I said “Dad guess what I did.” He says “What?”
I said “I enlisted.” He says “Oh, in the Navy?” “No.” He says “No?” I said “Too much water
Dad, I’ve been there done that, you know with you. No, Air Force, I want to fly.” So– But he
was just messing with me, whatever I chose to do he was always supportive but he was
surprised.
Interviewer: “Sure, well it was the same with me, my dad was in the Navy too and I wanted
to sign up in the Army Guard. So we’re in the same boat here, well the same plane
whatever you want to call it.”
Well it was cool on Halloween, I didn’t have any outfits so I’d wear his Navy clothes, you know
with the 13 buttons, and the shirt, and the white nice T-shirt. (10:25)
Interviewer: “While you were growing up that’s what you did on Halloween? Yeah, well
that’s pretty neat. Okay, so then you sign up there in Detroit right?”
Yes, Fort Wayne.
Interviewer: “Okay, now at that time– I can’t remember my history of that time but there
was a draft right at that time, but your number probably wasn’t coming up quite yet was
it?”
No, I enlisted. I did not get drafted at all, I wanted to go. I think there was a draft at that time,
yes.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Now at this time President Kennedy was in office in 1962 when you enlisted
and Vietnam was still pretty fairly early at that time. What did you know about Vietnam
before you went over there, when you enlisted in the Air Force? Did they tell you anything
or did they–”
No, not really but just before that when we had the Cuban Missile Crisis, I was involved in that
baby.
Interviewer: “How was that?”
Well because on our base we had B-52s, they were all gone and we were convinced that we were
going to war.
Interviewer: “Against Cuba or Russia?”
Russia, at that time and so they called us in and we had, you know, debriefing about what to
expect, what we’re gonna do, so that was a little scary.
Interviewer: “I bet, well we’ll get back to that later but we got to back to your basic
training at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. Alright tell me about that.”
(12:00)
Hot, very very hot, and you know it just– I can remember the kids on the bus, I call them kids
because that’s how they run the process, you’re a kid when you get off the bus and you’re a man
when you walk out of there. You know they taught responsibility, everything had to be just so,
wake you up in the middle of the night, run 5-10 miles, just doing campaign, just policing the
area– The same area day after day after day and then one day we found a jack rabbit there so we
all surrounded them and the jack rabbit surrendered he just laid down flat like “No, I can’t, I’m
too scared to do anything.” But yeah it wasn’t bad, I mean we would have a three day pass once
in a while and went to town, do what most guys do had a couple beers– That’s another story,
wanna hear about that one?
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Sure, this is all after basic training or during your basic training?”
This is tech school.
Interviewer: “Okay, oh you went up to Amarillo after that right?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay tech school, let us know what tech school’s about.”
Administration, you know everything we need to do, all the particulars, learn the regulations and
then 6/14 the form and just, you know everything that you need to know to make it run. So we
graduated from– That night on a Friday so we went to town, well unfortunately we weren’t 21 so
we– The elevator operators that needs to have operators that took them up and down offered to
get us some beer. So we paid an absorbent amount of money for beer and we’re enjoying the
cocktails in the room and then in turn he calls the Texas rangers on us. Yeah, so we had to go
back to the air base and in an open air pick up truck and riding in the back in December, cold.
Interviewer: “Even down in Texas that’s pretty cold.” (14:15)
Oh yeah, very cold.
Interviewer: “Did you have snow down there at that time?”
No just bitter, bitter cold, but that didn’t stop the parades every Saturday though. We were out
there every Saturday passing in review.
Interviewer: “Oh, every Saturday huh? How long did you have to stand there, in
formation?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Felt like eternity but probably about an hour and a half, would give you awards and decorations
and that kind of stuff, and drill pad every day. Why is it you always get one guy that’s got two
left feet, you know and just– You know we’re out there extra time because he don’t get it.
Interviewer: “It always happens no matter what branch you’re in.”
I know.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you got your administrative training at tech school there in
Amarillo, then where were you stationed after that?”
My work is to go to Washington, D.C Andrews Air Force Base, that’s the home of the Air Force
1 and went to the American Society of Civil Engineers.
Interviewer: “Okay, and let us know what– I know what civil engineers are but let
everybody else know what civil engineers are in the Air Force.” (15:30)
Alright, civil engineers is your plumbers, electricians, carpenters, just all the skilled trades that
are necessary and great bunch of guys, really hard working guys. Knew their stuff that this was a
trade they could take out on the outside and immediately begin working anywhere.
Interviewer: “Oh definitely, kind of like the Navy Seabees really.”
Yeah, actually yeah, so it was really cool.
Interviewer: “Now you mentioned about the Cuban Missile Crisis, what– Tell us about that
right from the beginning. What you heard then all of a sudden– You mentioned the
bombers too, mention everything about that if you can.”
Well, we didn’t hear it formally, I mean you know we would hear it from our peers or lieutenants
or captains openly talking about it, you know and rushing around when we see all the B-52s are
�Jedlowski, Ray
gone and all you have is your T-33 trainers on the pad and that’s all you got on the base,
something’s up, you know and that’s when we heard Kennedy make a speech that we’re not
backing down. Russia you want to bring it, what you had to do we were gonna have missiles 90
miles from us, yeah that’s not happening.
Interviewer: “Yeah and now did he go on the nation and do it or did he address just the
armed forces? I think he went on the nation didn’t he?”
Nation, yeah but that’s when Khrushchev was in charge and backed him down.
Interviewer: “What did you all think when you finally got the word that they’re gonna
move the missiles?”
We were– We were delighted we thought that that was great stuff because, you know in nuclear
war there’s no winners so– And there will never be winners it’s gonna be total chaos so–
Interviewer: “What– Do they have a plan in case unfortunately a missile did come your
way for you guys to go?” (17:33)
There were bunkers, yeah we were okay.
Interviewer: “Have you been– Did you see any of them or go in them?”
No, if they were to launch we would’ve immediately been evacuated to the bunkers.
Interviewer: “Especially in D.C area too I mean–”
Yeah, there was bunkers everywhere .
Interviewer: “Now Air Force 1, that’s their home like you said, did you see it a lot?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did you ever get to see President Kennedy or his family or the vice president
Johnson or any of them?”
No, not a big fan of Johnson either.
Interviewer: “Alright, we can talk about that later.”
Oh I won’t talk about it.
Interviewer: “But anyway–”
But no I did not.
Interviewer: “Okay, then when did you actually go to Vietnam?” (18:15)
1965.
Interviewer: “Okay before that you mentioned to me– Before I started interviewing you,
about when Kennedy was shot. Tell me about that day that he was shot and when you guys
heard it and how everybody felt and you too of course.”
Oh it– I was just at my desk and when we heard the news it’s like your body is drained and you
got no interest in working anymore. It was just like you just amble out of there and just walk to
try to process it, you know it was just unbelievable.
Interviewer: “Now was it like that for the high NCOs and officers, did they feel the same
way?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Oh yeah, everybody was just like “What?” You know “What just happened?” So yeah it was
total shock and it was just amazing how that news like that just drains your energy, just numb
trying to process that.
Interviewer: “So were you there when they brought his casket and body?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “How was that?”
I was down the flight line.
Interviewer: “Okay, when Air Force 1 came in with Johnson and Mrs. Kennedy and them?
Okay, did you know that was them there?”
No doubt.
Interviewer: “So tell me about that if you want to.” (19:40)
Well, I just wanted to see for myself, you know just to validate it that that was true.
Interviewer: “Historians have said many times and even include a couple professors at
Grand Valley State that said the two worst days in American history is when President
Lincoln and President Kennedy were shot, would you agree with that?”
I do, Kennedy was a good man, a good man.
Interviewer: “I know Lincoln was way before our time but do you think that still holds
together today?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
I do because he meant what he said. No, I mean I guess I could have made that call, I mean that
cannot happen you cannot– He’s putting missiles 90 miles from our home land, no you’re not
gonna do it. I mean you do what you have to but we’re not gonna allow it.
Interviewer: “Sure yeah, okay now after did you have to do any security thing for
Kennedy’s funeral or was things all tight and locked down when all that happened that
week?”
Oh yeah the bases locked down absolutely, yeah if you weren’t on the base you weren’t–
Nobody was getting in and they had dignitaries of course for when the body was brought and
unloaded and put into a hearse.
Interviewer: “Did you– Anybody on the base provide security when he was lying in state in
the Capitol or anything like that during the funeral?” (21:12)
I’m sure that happened, yeah I’m sure that happened.
Interviewer: “Did you all get to watch his funeral at all?”
No, I guess I knew enough didn’t want [unintelligible] So sad, good man.
Interviewer: “We’ll get back to Kennedy later and then of course Johnson took over. Now
we’ll get back to you, when did you actually go to Vietnam?”
1965.
Interviewer: “Okay and what– When did you get the orders to go to Nam?”
Well it’s interesting because my job was to process volunteer statements to go to Vietnam, I
didn’t put– I didn’t process myself at all but those guys that filled out volunteer statements to go
�Jedlowski, Ray
to Vietnam– They didn’t go! It just seemed like the ones that did not volunteer were the ones that
went. So I was very surprised when I got my orders to do that.
Interviewer: “I’m gonna have to stop it just for a second here. Alright we’re back, go ahead
you just got your orders for Vietnam.”
Yes and so– Which I was pretty shocked because I certainly didn’t volunteer to go but I certainly
would go and I had approximately 21 days before the deployment and– Can I back up one more
part from before?
Interviewer: “Sure go ahead, yeah.”
Alright when I went to Fort Wayne to– You know they’re supposed to fly us Lackland, well
some of us took the– Had to be put on a train and took the train to Texas, air conditioning went
out two or three times, the food was awful, I just got the air conditioning working and the next
station went out again. That was one horrible ride to Texas, anyway. (23:25)
Interviewer: “No it’s fine you can go back and let us know, fill in the gaps as soon as you
remember.”
Most of them got to get flown there but no this little segment here took the train and why? I don’t
know, okay I’m done.
Interviewer: “Okay, so now obviously did they activate the whole unit or did they just
parts of the unit?”
All civil engineers went, our whole group everybody, the plumbers, electricians, everybody
went, everybody was gone.
Interviewer: “And how many was that?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
About 45.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright okay so you got your orders to go to Vietnam, how did you feel,
did you tell your parents you were going there?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “What’d they say?”
Well, mom cries, dad shakes your hand, that was kind of “I gotta do this dad, just like you did
it’s my turn.”
Interviewer: “Did he give you any advice or anything to say to you? No, nothing at all?”
No pep talk, no.
Interviewer: “Okay, now at that time, and you said 1965 you went? Okay, at that time they
were just starting– We were just starting to get into it, what did you hear about Vietnam
up to that time you got your orders?” (24:45)
That we were just sending advisors, trying to help them train their military. We weren’t painting
a war picture at that time, maybe you hear a skirmish or something but not what was really there
but no wasn’t anything.
Interviewer: “Nothing like that?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay so you took off from Andrews Air Force Base, where’d you go from
there?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Hawaii.
Interviewer: “Hawaii. Straight from– All the way to Hawaii or did you land in the west
coast first?”
All the way to Hawaii.
Interviewer: “B-52?”
141 Starlifter I think it was called, it’s a great, great big plane. Oh we didn’t get seats like this we
got the leather straps.
Interviewer: “The cargo seats.”
Cargo seats.
Interviewer: “Yeah, I had that too.” (25:44)
Yeah, so we get to Hawaii everybody said “You ever been to Hawaii before?” Sort of, I was on
the ground for an hour while they refueled and then we took off again. So never forget I think I
had a quarter on the counter for a cup of coffee, she says “You know it’s 35 cents.” Back in ‘62
that’s big money, for coffee? Yeah, so they–
Interviewer: “Yeah, so how long do you stay in Hawaii?”
An hour.
Interviewer: “An hour, okay. Right at Hickam Air Force Base?”
Yup.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Yup, then off to Vietnam?”
There we went.
Interviewer: “Alright so then when you got there, you mentioned to me earlier, was there
some kind of skirmish just outside your base– Oh but name the base you were at in
Vietnam.”
It was called Pleiku Air Base.
Interviewer: “And where was that at in Vietnam? Near Saigon or some other place was
it?”
About an hour to Saigon.
Interviewer: “North?”
North. Yeah so and then when the pilot landed he said “You know you guys are earning combat
pay now?” I said “Oh yeah why’s that?” He said “Cause we got bullet holes in the wing.”
Interviewer: “Did they shoot while you were in the air?” (27:00)
Sure, oh yeah they always did.
Interviewer: “They shot you while you were in the air?”
No, they shot our plane.
Interviewer: “Oh they shot your plane, okay. Alright so– But did you know about it at the
time?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Only when he landed and told us.
Interviewer: “You couldn’t feel the bullets hit?”
No, it was a big plane. I don't think we were in any danger but just make it more aerodynamic is
all.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well so how did you feel after you found that out?”
I didn’t– Actually I thought it was kind of humorous because, you know I’m pretty darn young
and “It’ll be alright, no big deal I don’t care.” But the guys would never plan for tomorrow. We
always did what we did today and plan something for tomorrow, well we’ll see, that kind of
attitude.
Interviewer: “So you mentioned to me earlier there was like a skirmish or battle near the
base?” (27:58)
Yes, yes there was, nothing that we were involved in. We got there but we had the– The A1E jets
were at that base and they would drop bombs in the jungle on the perimeters, you know just
trying to thin the out some and then next to my boots we had a 105 howitzer that would go off at
eight o’clock every night and if you can get used to sleeping– From me to the wall and there’s a
howitzer over there going off you can still sleep, good for you but you get used to it.
Interviewer: “Wow, must have been pretty loud.”
Yeah, it was, yeah it was and then so they would change commands and one of the bone heads
forgot to pass on the firing pin. So they’re sitting out there with the campfire and everything,
just one of the silly things that happened.
Interviewer: “But you got to have a lot of humor and laughs and all that.”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Oh yeah, or you won’t make it, and then we’re out in the field we’re building billets for the 1st
Cav that’s pushing their way through. Well we got the monkeys coming out of the trees and
stealing our hammers and went up the tree and throw them.
Interviewer: “Real monkeys?”
Yeah, oh yeah very real.
Interviewer: “What kind of monkeys, they weren’t chimpanzees were they?”
No, the–
Interviewer: “Spider monkeys?”
Spider monkeys, yeah or they’d take the nails they thought that was great fun. So then we all had
to wear the hard hats because they’ll dunk you with those hammers.
Interviewer: “Did anybody get hurt?” (29:30)
No, and then the guys made the mistake of feeding them, well you start doing that then you make
a mistake.
Interviewer: “Yeah you don’t feed wild animals like that even though they seem pretty
tame, still.
Well they always want to be with you cause you’re the food source now.
Interviewer: “Sure, what other animals did you have contact with out there? Any
dangerous ones?”
No.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Cause you hear all kinds of stories about snakes and other things out there.”
Fortunately not, there could’ve been some in that trench that was around our perimeter. We had
lights that would show into the trench and out in the field so in event of an alert we would all go
in there, and we were still upset because they shine the lights on us. Well that’s like shining it on
the ducks in a gallery, you put your lights out there not on us. So we swore the next time we get
hit, those lights are coming out.
Interviewer: “So did you hear that battle that was going on near the base at all?”
Oh yeah, well you can hear it every day.
Interviewer: “Oh yeah?”
Yeah, I mean I wasn’t involved in it at that time but you can hear them.
Interviewer: “Was it the– So it was the Viet Cong trying to infiltrate the base basically.”
(30:50)
Right.
Interviewer: “Now obviously– Was it the 1st Cav that drove back, was it?”
They– At that time the 1st Cav was pushing through so that’s what all the problems– All the
noise was, it was because they were out there. So our job was to go in and to build quarters for
them which was made out of wood and then the canvas top. So that was our job to build– I don’t
know how many we built, 100 or so I’m not sure. Then we had an on base guy who wanted to be
a barber so some of the engineers said “Look it, we’ll build you this barber shop but you gotta
give us a good deal.” “Oh yeah I’ll give you a good deal.” So they build a nice one, this thing is
nice, two weeks later it burnt down because of the hot plate on there. They said “We’re not
�Jedlowski, Ray
building you another one.” So and then we had a house mamasan who did our washing and take
care of our clothes and stuff. They had the best inside information about what’s going on
everywhere because they’re women and they’re washing clothes just at the well when y’all scrub
and use the washboard and then she’d come back and say “No go to town, trouble in town
tonight.” Don’t go, stay, stay on base, sure enough.
Interviewer: “They had the information I’m sure.”
She shared it with us because, you know, we were a meal ticket, we paid her handsomely so she
wanted to take care of her job.
Interviewer: “What was the name of the town you were close by, do you remember?”
Well the town of Pleiku but it wasn’t much of a town, no they had thatch huts and dirt floors but
I’ll tell you what’s cool, they asked us to take a load of gravel off the Montagnard villagers and
take these– About four dump trucks out there full of gravel. (33:00) Well– So I’ve never drove a
dump truck before but, oh well here’s the keys figure it out. So we go out there and Steve it was
like going– Jumping into a history book, like a page of thatch huts, women weaving baskets on
the side of the road, and you know the mountain yard people. They have an interesting wedding
ceremony, they– The groom knocks out her front teeth to signify that she is married, truth.
Interviewer: “Wow, her front teeth?”
Yeah, that’s the signal that she’s spoken for and then the chief invited us to drink rice wine and
he would have a line and “You drink down the line or you a baby.” Well we weren’t big
drinkers, we were kids. So I’m rolling around in the back of the dump truck with two grenades,
two clips of M-16s and I don’t feel good. So anyway, but that turned out alright cause the
Montagnard– Montagnard and Vietnamese people have never gotten along, never ever ever,
centuries never gotten along.
Interviewer: “Really?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Really, always come back.
Interviewer: “Think they still are?”
Oh yeah for certain, I don’t think it’s ever gonna quit– And hygiene for them, limited, got to go
to the bathroom you go.
Interviewer: “Right out in public?”
Wherever you are.
Interviewer: “Male or female?” (34:50)
Yup, and the Montagnard women didn’t have bras, saw sleight of their under breast they don’t
care. Edit that one out.
Interviewer: “Sure, your bathrooms or latrines weren’t there.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “And you had a dining facility there too did you, or basically a tent like mesh
or something like that?”
We just had a room and all the meals were C rations, not MREs, no, packed in 1942.
Interviewer: “Wow.”
Yeah, Beanee Weanees, ham and egg, you take the lid off the only thing you want to eat, even if
you’re gonna shit dice for it, is Beanee Weanees. The rest of it they can keep, grease was this
thick.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Wow, anybody get sick off that?”
No, but you had a lot of skinny guys because we wouldn’t eat the stuff, it was awful, you know
so when we’d write home “Don’t send cakes or cookies cause it’s all gonna be broken when we
get it, send us canned goods please.” You know something that we knew was edible and then on,
you know Christmas day, you know we had C rations and really always had beer.
Interviewer: “You had alcohol?” (36:28)
Oh yeah, yeah we couldn’t get toothpaste but we could get alcohol and I went to work for a
major castle airline and the commander he says “I’m gonna get a combination safe.” I thought to
myself “Oh sure you are, we can't even get the basics and you’re gonna get that.” Well sure
enough he got it. So I had to set the combination, I said “Well you want me to tell you what’s the
combination?” “No, you just keep the combination if I need to get in there I’ll call you.” That
was a mistake, he must’ve had insomnia two o’clock in the morning rookie runners coming to
get me because the major wants to get in the safe. So I gotta get up, get dressed, go unlock it for
him, open the drawer, and then I gotta go back. So somewhere in southeast Asia there’s a safe
that nobody can open.
Interviewer: “You think it’s buried somewhere?”
It could be but I’ve got the combination.
Interviewer: “You’ve got the combo, okay. Anything valuable in there you think
anymore?”
Probably special orders or probably secret stuff but you know.
Interviewer: “So anyway lately I’ve seen on the travel channel and the Food Network they
have on cable TV some– Not veterans, I know veterans who have gone back to Vietnam but
�Jedlowski, Ray
people in food they go to Vietnam specifically Ho Chi Minh City which used to be Saigon,
and they say on there that there’s over like 200 different fruits and vegetables in Vietnam.
Did you see any of them out there at all?”
You know the saddest part of that war? 535– Something like that 548,000 men, are you serious?
That’s too much.
Interviewer: “It is.”
And we didn’t win, to me you owe us– First one of our guys that drops we’re expected to win at
all cost, there’s no such thing as ties in war.
Interviewer: “I agree, but anyway did you ever do any fishing out there or anything like
that?” (39:05)
No–
Interviewer: “Were you even near a river or a lake that you could do that?”
Well we went swimming on Christmas day.
Interviewer: “Where the Mekong delta or?”
No, we found a lake.
Interviewer: “Did you?”
Yeah, of course the Viet Cong swim in there too but anyway–
Interviewer: “Did you see any over there?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
No way we had on– Here we had 40 guys right, okay and there’s 20 on the perimeter of the lake
and 20 swim with– Our stuff was real close to us and everything. Okay when we’re done
swimming we get out, get dressed, and they go in and swim but no fortunately we didn’t– We
must have got our schedules okay because they didn’t come in then but if they did it would’ve
been a mess, we’d have been in it but it was so hot there. That’s the poorest piece of real estate,
they didn’t get their rainy season man it rains every day, mildew, mosquitoes that could probably
beat you up.
Interviewer: “Did you guys get any bug spray that helped you out?”
Well we had netting, each bunk had nets but, you know still you’re out in the field, out in a
construction area I mean you gotta deal with it.
Interviewer: “Anybody catch the malaria or any kind of–”
No, other guys coming back did, that’s it.
Interviewer: “Okay so when did you leave Vietnam? Actually before we do that, did you
ever go to Saigon?” (40:30)
No.
Interviewer: “Did you see the Mekong delta or anywhere else like that?”
No, we were pretty much confined there because our job was construction so we didn’t get to–
We didn’t get to go anywhere or do much of anything other than– Oh we had that– Told you
about that day room? We had one movie, Annette Funicello in Bikini Beach Party, we saw that–
I could almost recite the dialogue, I mean that was the only movie we had. We watched it 30
times or something and tried to–
Interviewer: “In the whole year that’s all you saw?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Yeah and we’re trying to trade movies with others. “No, we don’t have any.” Or “No, we’re not
trading.” So that was it, and we didn’t have chairs in there either, you sat on the floor. Yeah, and
then Christmas day we got our C rations, sit on the floor.
Interviewer: “Christmas day of ‘65?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, what– You said there was a mamasan that did your laundry right?”
Mhmm,
Interviewer: “Is that the only contact you had with any civilians or?”
Yeah, you know– And supposedly all the on base Vietnamese are screened, I doubt it, I don’t
think that’s true. I mean– See that’s just the problem with that war, you didn’t know a good guy
from the bad guy. (42:00) I mean there’s good Vietnamese and bad Vietnamese, it’s not like
shirts and skins, I mean you don’t know. So you watch everything and everybody.
Interviewer: “Did anybody ever come on base that the kids– Bombs on them or anything
like that?”
No, that’s why I stayed out of Saigon cause they’d walk in the restaurant and blow it up, and
then we had a Vietnamese guy who would run our lawn mower and the lawn mower got clogged
with weeds so he put his hand in there to unclog it. So we had to rush him over to the hospital
cause half of his hand was missing cause he put it in the blades, he didn’t turn it off.
Interviewer: “Well, did he save his hand in the end?”
Yeah.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “That’s good.”
You know, teach them– It was probably the first time he ever saw one.
Interviewer: “Probably, yeah.”
But can they make crossbows, those folks are carpenters I’ll tell you they can really, really make
things. I tried to bring mine back but they wouldn’t let me [unintelligible]
Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t go to Saigon you basically stayed on Pleiku whatever
and stuff.”
One of the things about– We had the club that we went to, whether– Americans are pretty cool
people because when you get into a situation like that, they don’t care how much money you got,
they don’t care what branch of service you’re in, you’re American we’re together and we’re on
the same team. (43:35) I mean nobody was a stranger any time you went in there whether you
knew them or not, you know and I’ve had 1st Cav guys switch T-shirts just for luck and just,
amazing, amazing camaraderie, it’s just it’s a wonderful friendship.
Interviewer: “Do you still keep in touch with any of them today?”
No, I started to do that and I found out some were gone so I said “I’m not doing it.” Oh I went to
the wall in Washington, D.C and I didn’t use the book because I want to remember what I
remembered last and I didn’t want to change that.
Interviewer: “Sure, before we get into your trips after the war like the wall, we’ll get back
to the wall again.”
Okay.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Okay, when you got your orders to leave Vietnam how did you feel?”
Oh I was happy, well just before then I got the reenlistment– Spill “You gotta stay in we’ll make
you major, captain, everything. Make you staff sergeant within six months.” I wanna go home, I
wanna go home so yeah I was very very happy and very happy to get back.
Interviewer: “So they tried to convince you otherwise.”
Oh yeah, they want me to stay. I said “I am so not– No, I’m going home.” But now going home,
no one talked about the chip.
Interviewer: “Sure, real quick I think there’s something I ain’t asked about, about
Vietnam. Did you know how the war was going? Did anybody tell you anything, what was
going on?”
No, because we were so busy doing our jobs that we really– That didn’t really– I guess I didn’t
want to know at that time cause I had my job to do, you always had to do it for the war effort.
(45:30) So I would hope we were, I mean you know, no I didn’t say what the score you know I
was in it but–
Interviewer: “Did you have any like– You could listen to any music over there at all?”
We made our own with some guys who could sing, play the guitar.
Interviewer: “Did you? Yeah, did you have any favorite music back then or favorite bands,
songs or whatever?”
I’m gonna have to think on that one.
Interviewer: “Okay, if you think later that’s fine. There’s a lot of talk of drugs over there,
did you see any of that?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
No and you know what? That’s what ticks me off about that movie Full Metal Jacket, that’s
bullshit it wasn’t that much going on and boy did they sensationalize that for the audience.
Interviewer: “How about Platoon? That was another one.”
Yeah, no I could tell you we had our beer and we had whiskey but there was no– And I ran with
all the guys there was no pot and nothing else going on. That’s why I would never watch that
movie again, that was a travesty, that did not depict them at all. There was no stoners on there
stumbling around.
Interviewer: “We’ve had some vets say there was but as you know Hollywood likes to–”
Sensationalize.
Interviewer: “Big time, yeah.” (46:53)
Well all I can say is for our group, civil engineers, it was not.
Interviewer: “Just alcohol.”
Yeah we had beer, well beer was a quarter, shot of whisky was a quarter so, you know. First of
all we didn’t have a place to get it, I mean other than on the construction site or you’re taking a
shower or going to the chow hall to eat and then you don’t get a lot of free time to do much,
remember we worked 12-13 hours a day. Yeah I mean there was no– And you’re tired.
Interviewer: Did you have any time off, like weekends off? Even Sundays?”
Sundays we got off and the only we had that we could play was horseshoes and we had one base
football and someone kicked it in the minefield and one of the Vietnamese that used to work on
the base tried to get it, blew himself up, so that left us with the horseshoes and that was it.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Did you see that happen?”
No, no I heard it though.
Interviewer: “You heard it go off?”
Yeah, so–
Interviewer: “But it was a Vietnamese that went out there?”
Yeah, he thought that he could get the football and keep it or sell it back to us, that was a
mistake.
Interviewer: “Okay, so then when you went home did you fly out of Saigon or right off the
base you were at?” (48:15)
I flew out of Pleiku, yeah the 141 Starlifter again.
Interviewer: “Okay, then you went back to Hawaii did you?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then back where after that?”
Back home to Dearborn, Michigan. Dearborn Heights, Michigan.
Interviewer: “Okay, you didn’t have to go back to Andrews Air Force Base?”
Oh yeah I’m sorry, yeah Andrews– Yeah we had to fly back to Andrews fist and then I got
discharged but when people– Is it time for the chip yet?
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “What’s that?”
Time for the chip part? The chip is when you come home and you’re still there.
Interviewer: “Okay, go ahead.”
Okay, you know physically you know you aren’t but man I had a hair trigger temper. My mom
and I went out to dinner at this lounge and then the bartender wouldn’t serve me because he told,
you know told me I was too young to have a beer and I showed him an I.D– My I.D, a military
I.D and he still wouldn’t and I’m not proud of it but I punched him and my dad of course
defended me and my mom saying “Just get the hell out of here.” And so we got up, threw over
some tables, he was out taking a nap and same as my daughter, she got back from Afghanistan
and she’s an MP in the Army and I stood behind her. She asks me to be in front of her even
though clearly she knows I’m dad but you’re not– It takes a while for that to go away. (50:15) I
mean I had that for about six months, I mean just hair trigger, you know we’d fight over the drop
of a hat because I was just wired I guess but it got better, I mean in time. Let me say just cause
they’re back don’t mean they’re really back.
Interviewer: “So you got back, you got discharged in ‘66 you said? And at that time
Vietnam really started to kick off.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “You saw the protests obviously around the country, Johnson and McNamara
escalating the war big time. How did you feel about that when you got out? Did you feel
you should go back in or did you just feel– Knowing what those guys are probably heading
to, how did you feel?”
I think we could’ve done a better job, I know it– First of all the French were there and they got
their ass kicked, there’s a statue of the French– For the French because they couldn’t win there
�Jedlowski, Ray
and so we’re there I mean I got no issue with McNamara, yeah okay. We– It wasn’t our war, you
know but be that as it may we were told to go, we’re going. So you know I see the draft dodgers
and burning their draft cards or going to Canada, you know this is your country. You don’t want
this anymore, you don’t want to pay the price for freedom? Well good luck in Canada.
Interviewer: “Then when– What was that– Did you even watch the news when the war
really got going?”
No, I figured it was out of my hands. I did what I could while I was there and, you know that’s
all I could do. I had a clean conscience and I felt good about what I did.
Interviewer: “Now Johnson wouldn’t run again and probably because of–”
The lame duck? (52:22)
Interviewer: “Well yeah, because of the pressure from protestors and the Vietnam war
very escalating that him and McNamara did. Then Nixon won the election though, how’d
you feel about that, did you think he’d do something well over there, did you think– What
did you think?”
No, I didn't think that Nixon was gonna change anything. I just, you know he was in politics and
with him in the Watergate thing and I’m sure there’s other– He’s very political just do whatever
will pacify you and play the game, so no I don’t think so.
Interviewer: “I know he ordered some strikes against Cambodia because of supply lines
there from the Viet Cong.”
Well you know what they bombed Hanoi twice, there was a Viet Cong general that said “If you
had bombed us one more time we were gonna surrender.” And then they stopped the bombing
after two bombing runs.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Wow, and then all of a sudden, you know Nixon resigned, Watergate and
then our local man Gerald Ford took over.”
Good man.
Interviewer: “Yep, he was, I even had the chance to meet him once too.”
Did you?
Interviewer: “Yes I did, but anyway did you feel Ford was– Did you feel sorry for Ford
with the mess that was given to him?”
I did.
Interviewer: “Did you think there was any way out of Vietnam at that time or did you
think he had to just go right through with it and continue the evacuation, anyway how did
you feel?” (54:05)
I don’t think we should have evacuated anything, I think if we would’ve followed through and
quit having it be a political war than a real war we wouldn’t have had to evacuate. They
would’ve been gone, Hanoi would’ve surrendered, everything would’ve been different but no,
that’s on us.
Interviewer: “But was there anything you think Ford could’ve done, he got denied
Congress any aid to solve Vietnam but by that time pretty much the war was probably over
with, don’t you think?”
Yeah, and then when we got back you know the cat calls we got.
Interviewer: “Did you get any people say anything to you when they knew you was in
service?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Mhmm, I reacted to it.
Interviewer: “I mean you’re good to share with me, if not if you don’t that’s fine. A lot of
veterans have told me what they did to so.”
I punched him, I did and I’ll punch every god damn one of them that does that. How dare you,
how dare you spit on me, how dare you call me a name. Were you there? Did you put any skin in
the game? No, you did not, that's why I’m gonna knock you on your ass, that’s just the way I feel
about it too.
Interviewer: “Well it’s a normal reaction, you know.”
Yeah and then– I gotta– 580,479 I just remembered what we lost, are you kidding me? I mean
God bless desert storm, desert shield and all those, and they got ticker tape parades and then they
have the audacity to take us down to Fifth Third Ballpark and honor us? (55:45) That’s like,
Steve if I forgot your birthday and 30 years later “Hey Steve come on out listen about your
birthday, here.” No stick it, you know I don’t– What? That’s even [unintelligible] I mean that’s
crazy and–
Interviewer: “But anyway, what did you feel about the Vietnamese refugees that Ford
helped get over here, get them homes? Did you think– Did you think that was a good thing
he did, Cambodian refugees too?”
I don’t know how I feel about that, I got a neighbor who’s Vietnamese, I got trouble with that. I
hear them talk in Vietnamese and I speak a little Vietnamese. I’m not comfortable you know not
that they’re bad people, nothing to do with them at all I just–
Interviewer: “Does it bring back memories?”
It takes me back, I don’t want to go back.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Yeah I don’t blame you.”
So yeah, that bothers me.
Interviewer: “One thing I have to tell you though, this is coming from a couple of them I
know, one’s a friend of mine he’s a cop at Grand Valley, another they helped run the First
Wok restaurant there on Alpine, they wanted me to tell you and all the Vietnam veterans
thank you very much for helping them.”
And God loves them, yeah I would help them again but let’s do the job.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so anyway Vietnam war ended and stuff and all this ridicule and stuff
like that, then of course you’ve told me how you felt about those that dodged the draft. Now
there’s different types of draft dodgers back then there’s all the ones that went to Canada,
those that went to college and then those that joined the National Guard. How did you feel
about all that?” (57:55)
I’m okay with two out of the three, the ones that went to Canada stay there. Yeah if you’re in
college, you get a deferment for college God bless you, National Guard God bless you, but don’t
go to Canada and run out on your country, don’t do that.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so anyway you mentioned the Vietnam wall, when you found out they
were gonna build something like that, and it was by a woman named Maya Lin I think she
was Vietnamese that designed that really great design, fantastic–”
It’s gorgeous.
Interviewer: “Anyway how did you feel about the wall when it went up finally?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
When I went there, again I told you I didn’t look for my friends in the book, but I did kneel down
for about 20 minutes and just reflected and said prayers for those that aren’t here, some because
they were my buddies and God bless you guys.
Interviewer: “Definitely is something worth seeing in D.C right there that was a long time
coming.”
But I’d recommend, even though you think you would want to see if your friends were on the
wall, just remember them the way that they were and then you won’t be disappointed.
Interviewer: “Exactly. Did you leave anything at the wall?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “What’d you leave?” (59:22)
A Rose, yeah they had vendors on the street.
Interviewer: “Good location too, right by the Lincoln Memorial.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Very good location. Alright now we're back up past ‘82 cause that’s when
the wall was put up and stuff, and– Anyway your personal life again, when did you get
married?”
First time 1968 and that lasted for 17 years but alcohol got the best of her so we divorced.
Interviewer: “Okay, any children from that?”
Yes, three sons and a daughter.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Okay, what are their names?”
Jeff, Cheryl, Wayne, and Trey and Wayne’s a police office in Westminster, Maryland, my
daughter’s an x-ray tech, and my other two work for a couple factories there,so doing well.
Interviewer: “Now you mentioned up comes Desert Storm when it started– When it came
up, I mean we were building forces and stuff over there to stop Saddam Hussein and kick
him out of Kuwait. President Bush, first President Bush, H.W Bush being a World War II
vet himself he promised the nation this is not gonna be another Vietnam. Do you think he
fulfilled that promise after we did victory in Desert Storm or how do you feel?”
I think he did because we went in there and took care of business, we did not finish Vietnam, that
was never finished. Yes I think he did, now it’s not Colin Powell but who was that other–
Interviewer: “Schwarzkopf.” (1:01:17)
Yes, smart man and he said that this won't be a Vietnam, we’re gonna do this.
Interviewer: “Colin Powell said that too.”
Okay.
Interviewer: “A couple good generals there.”
Yeah, no kidding and no one like since.
Interviewer: “And Vietnam veterans too, cause I think they were like either majors or
captains during the Vietnam war and stuff.”
Schwarzkopf was no dummy, he was very smart.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Very good.”
So yeah, I do remember that when our tank was assaulted they were holding up their hands and
surrendering and one of them said “What took you so long?” They didn’t want no part of this.
Interviewer: “You mean over at Desert Storm?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah I got some friends that was an MP unit from Owosso and they said that
they were surrendering in droves coming to their plant.”
Yeah like “Hey over here!”
Interviewer: “Yeah they were given– My friends that were there as MPs they were giving
them money and stuff and ‘Here you can have this.’ You know.” (1:02:15)
Yeah just take me away.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but anyway then of course came the Iraq war and the Afghanistan, did
you– You said you had a daughter that was there?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, what branch was she in?”
Military police.
Interviewer: “Army?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Yes.
Interviewer: “She active duty was she?”
Oh yeah, very active duty.
Interviewer: “She wasn't guard or reserve?”
No, she was there.
Interviewer: “How was it for her?”
Well, she to straighten them out I guess she told me she’s tired of hearing, this is Afghanistan the
folks go “Well why are you here, you’re supposed to make babies.” And you know just that
condescending stuff. So, her name is Liza, Eliza straightened them out very quickly and then she
was on patrol with an Afghanistan soldier but there was a dog underneath a tree trying to stay
cool. (1:03:10) Well this Afghanistan soldier is throwing rocks at him, my daughter turn the
saw– You know what a saw is, that machine gun that just throws out a thousand rounds a second
or something, she turn it on him said “You throw one more rock I’m taking you out.” They have
no– Everything is defined women are low as can be, dogs are–
Interviewer: “Even lower?”
Yeah, even lower.
Interviewer: “Yeah a lot of middle eastern countries are like that, I noticed that when I was
in Saudi and Kuwait, same thing. Not the dogs but I noticed the women, our women got
treated pretty bad, not by us but by them.”
Yeah, and if any of the other MPs notice that she’s having a bad time with one of the
Afghanistan soldiers, well it’s not good something’s gonna happen, but no she did good.
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “Did you give her any kind of talk when you found out she was going over
there or did you just wish her well, give her a hug and a kiss.”
I actually wanted to break her leg so she wouldn’t have to go. She’s tough, she’s got good genes
in her she’ll be fine, but stubborn, God she’s stubborn. Nope, she did good and she’s an NCO
now.
Interviewer: “Oh is she still active duty?”
Yeah, still active, she’s at Fort Knox.
Interviewer: “Oh Kentucky.”
Yeah, Elizabethtown, Kentucky.
Interviewer: “Is that still the Armored Division is it or is it just– Is it something else now.”
(1:04:50)
No, there’s tanks there but I don’t think– As a matter of fact I think it is, right outside the base is
Fort Knox. So she’s doing well.
Interviewer: “Oh good, yeah.”
But I guess she had a– When she got promoted to NCO her duties changed and all of a sudden
she’s got people looking for her, well she never had the experience before. So she got a little
flustered with the beginning you know, I said “Just like having kids.” I said “You just gotta see
what they need, take care of their needs, get them to do what you want to do.” I said “It’ll be an
investment.” So, she’s fine.
Interviewer: “You remarried again I take it after–”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay and just tell me about that briefly. How’d you meet her– I mean how’d
you meet your first wife, first?”
Met her at a USO dance and went together and just things clicked and we got married and I was
in the military then too.
Interviewer: “And what was your second wife?”
That’s the one that liked the alcohol.
Interviewer: “You mean your second wife, the one you’re married to now?”
Both of them did. (1:06:15)
Interviewer: “Okay, what’s your wife’s name now?”
Christie.
Interviewer: “Christie?”
Yup, she’s wonderful.
Interviewer: “Where’d you meet her at?”
I used to work for Grabber [sounds like] in Grand Rapids and I worked there for years and she
worked there and I did too. We were friends for 10 years, 15 years so finally did it right.
Interviewer: “And that’s your second marriage?”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Third.
Interviewer: “Third okay, alright third marriage okay. Alright then real quick we’ll
mention the presidents cause I feel your commander in chief is basically how a military
runs pretty much.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “We’ll start with Kennedy there, how do you feel he ran the military?”
Excellent, I do.
Interviewer: “Cause he was your commander in chief then.”
Yes. (1:07:10)
Interviewer: “There was a interview by Walter Cronkite a few months before he was
assassinated and he asked him straight out about Vietnam and he says– I don’t know how
much, whatever you can get it on Youtube or something like that the interview itself and he
pretty much said it’s going to have to be up to south Vietnamese to take care of this war. “I
don’t want to send more troops there or back them up” And all that stuff, do you feel if
Kennedy would’ve lived on do you think Vietnam would’ve ended the way it did or you
didn’t think it made any difference?”
I think it would have made a difference because again as great a president as he was he was no
nonsense, if he saw a need “Okay the south can’t handle this they need some help.” Maybe
because they’re out gunned or something we’d been in it but if he did call that, make that call
we’d have won it, oh yes, oh yes.
Interviewer: “Real briefly on Johnson.”
�Jedlowski, Ray
Pass, [unintelligible]
Interviewer: “Okay, no problem. Nixon?”
Tricky Dicky?
Interviewer: “Yeah, same thing? How about Ford?”
Yes, good man.
Interviewer: “Okay, I’ll briefly go through the next few presidents and then that’ll be it.
Carter?”
Pants were good.
Interviewer: “Okay, Ronald Reagan?” (1:08:33)
Great actor.
Interviewer: “Alright, you think he did good with the military?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “George H.W Bush?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, I don’t know if I want to mention the next one or not, should I?”
Start with a T?
�Jedlowski, Ray
Interviewer: “No, Mr.Clinton.”
I think him and Hillary are the two crookedest beings walking the Earth, there’s so much– If they
dug up all of the real dirt, are you kidding the people wouldn’t believe it.
Interviewer: “I was referring to how do you think Clinton ran the military?”
He was too busy with–
Interviewer: “Other things, we’ll leave it at that. Okay well we’ll stop right there as far as–
”
How about Trump?
Interviewer: “Well Trump’s still young yet in the office we’ll put it that way.” (1:09:25)
Okay.
Interviewer: “How about George W. do you think he did alright?”
Yes, he did.
Interviewer: “Okay, how about Mr.Obama what about him?”
I think he was trying to make everybody happy, you know he wanted to be all things to
everybody, yeah I think that was–
Interviewer: “He didn’t do too bad actually.”
�Jedlowski, Ray
No, no I’m not– But I think he’s a little short in the spine area where I think he could, I mean
could’ve been more decisive.
Interviewer: “Sure, alright anyway thank you very much for your service Ray, I appreciate
it.”
You’re very welcome.
Interviewer: “And I’m glad to meet you, I’m glad you let us have this interview and
basically anything else you’d like to add, like to say?”
Just God bless America.
Interviewer: “Okay, are you– You mentioned a little bit earlier, before we end this
interview, that you’re finally getting recognition and it’s like salt in the wound. It’s turned
around now how people are viewing the Vietnam war, especially veterans.” (1:10:25)
Yeah.
Interviewer: “How do you think– Why do you think that is?”
You know what, I don't have an answer.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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JedowskiR2181V
Creator
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Jedlowski, Ray
Date
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2018-02
Title
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Jedlowski, Ray (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Ray Jedlowski was born in Portsmouth, Virginia, in 1942 before his family moved to Michigan where he graduated high school in Dearborn in 1962. Jedlowski’s father was in the Navy during the Second World War and gave his son plenty of exposure to military life in port even though he was not fond of the seas. Since he could not find steady work after high school, he went down to the recruitment office and decided to enlist into the Air Force. He was then sent to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, for Basic Training before graduating onto Amarillo Air Force Base for technical school and administrative training. Jedlowski was then stationed at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland as a Civil Engineer. He recalled how the base went into lockdown following the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963. In 1965, he was deployed to Vietnam and was stationed at Pleiku Air Base near Saigon. Shortly after his arrival, the base experienced a small skirmish, but the new arrivals were not overly concerned for their safety. Jedlowski’s unit was tasked with constructing billets and lodging for the First Cavalry Division after its arrival near Pleiku. At the end of his tour, Jedlowski was relieved to go home and was flown to Hawaii and then back to Andrews Air Force Base where he was formally discharged in 1966. Back home, Jedlowski described the ‘chip’ effect where he was physically at home, but his mind was still as paranoid, wired, and irritable as he was in Vietnam. Disappointed with how the war was escalating and how some Americans looked to dodge the draft, he refused to watch the news, but was still proud of his contribution to the war effort. He was disappointed that presidents Nixon and Ford abandoned the war so quickly and that, combined with the intensified anti-war protests at home, the U.S. war effort fell apart. He was also conflicted by the construction of the Vietnam “Wall” Veterans Memorial in 1982 in Washington D.C. since he thought the sincerity of the project was mixed. After the end of Operation Desert Storm in 1991, Jedlowski thought the U.S. military and government did a far better job of handling the war effort than during Vietnam. However, Jedlowski is grateful that the general, domestic attitude toward veterans of the Vietnam War has changed for the better.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hammond, Steve (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/253162f51b6e851aae4f840a7d34145c.mp4
db0c0e99bea54a322d062a1cb617d413
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8dbfa8355d934843c26947d37c208fec.pdf
854ec6ab446cc8925aaf3482bc2f141b
PDF Text
Text
Grace, Matthew
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Afghanistan War
Interviewee’s Name: Matthew Grace
Length of Interview: (1:32:43)
Interviewed by: Taylor Lewis
Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo
Interview: “Alright, we’re here today again with Matthew Grace. Matt, I think we left off
[when] you had just come back from your first deployment in Afghanistan, and you had
been assigned to a new unit. Can you give us an idea of when that was again, and remind us
what unit that was?”
I got to my new unit–– I left my old one [at] the end of September/beginning of October in 2010.
I moved to Fort Carson, Colorado where I was assigned to 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment,
4th Brigade, 4th Infantry Division.
Interviewer: “And what kind of training were you doing? Were you gearing up to go to
Afghanistan again? Give us an idea of what you were doing.”
Well when I got to this unit, they had just similarly gotten back from a deployment in
Afghanistan. I believe they got back roughly a month or so before my unit got back, which was
in July, so probably June or something. I don’t know exactly when they got back–– pretty much
the same time that we did. So, they were in kind of the same phase where no one was really
motivated to do any work and everything like that. I mean, you’re in the Army–– you know
you’re going to deploy again. But when you get back, you know it’s not gonna be for a while.
And, you still haven't gotten all of your conexes back, or in some cases vehicles if you send them
over, or whatever it may be. So, anytime you get back from deployment there’s some kind of
chill period for a couple months and everything like that. I believe last time we talked about how,
pretty much, anyone Staff Sergeant–– E-6 and above–– in my platoon errored some kind of
physical profile where they couldn’t do PT with us. Or, I don’t know. I’m sure some of them
probably didn’t want to do PT. (2:17). So, they kind of left it to the NCOs in the unit–– the E-5
Sergeants–– to do it. But pretty much, it’s all these E-5 Sergeants who are just coming back from
deployment who have themselves been recently promoted to Sergeant from E-4. Then you have
a bunch of other E-4s who were either with these guys when they were in Afghanistan, or
incoming guys like me who just got back from Afghanistan themselves. Pretty much when you
in-process, you usually in-process with a bunch of other replacement kinds of guys. One of the
�guys who went to the same platoon with me was in my previous platoon from my first unit, so I
mean we’re all good buddies and then everyone else, they’re all from similar circumstances. So,
you have guys who are leading you, who are not that much more experienced than you. Though,
I mean, I’m not taking anything away from them–– they are more experienced than you. But at
the same time, it’s not like you’re a new Private–– there’s a level of respect there and everything.
So, we get there [and] they don’t really want to do PT, we don’t want to do PT either. [The]
leaders tell us to go do PT and we just kind of blow that off and everything like that. (3:34).
Interviewer: “So are you accepted in this new unit? Was there any sense of, ‘He’s a new guy,
we don’t want to talk to him.’ Or, were you given a certain level of respect because you had
been deployed already?”
Yeah. I mean, pretty much if you’re a Specialist in the Army, you have a combat badge on–– a
CIB on–– I mean, most leaders aren’t gonna mess with you too much or anything like that. I
mean, they’re going to come down on you if you don’t know the right thing and everything like
that, but you’re beyond the hazing phase. No one’s gonna come up to you and just tell you to do
push-ups for no reason or anything like that–– they recognize that. Basically, we were in this
chill period for the first few months until probably–– I mean, you slowly start moving out of it.
Slowly training starts coming around. And then some days, you can’t just blow off everyday.
Slowly, you have vehicles and mortar police that you need to take care of. There’s still
inventories and layouts to do, and slowly you start getting field problems–– maybe just like a
mortar shoot for a couple of days–– just to certify and everything like that. When you’re a
mortar, you’re required to shoot so many rounds a year or something like that–– do one mortar
certification a year, or something like that–– or six months. (5:07). [It’s] the same thing with
marksmanship. Every soldier has to go to the range at least once a year–– but us being combat
arms, that’s maybe expected a little bit more than just once a year since your weapon is your job.
So, I mean, you start coming down with more ranges and everything–– just basic things. At first
it’s just like we are going to the range just to recertify your weapon since you’ve gotten back
from deployment or everything like that. But then, I mean, towards January when we started
coming back up for mortar certification we’re outside, we’re pulling our mortars out of the arms
room and signing them up and running drills and everything like that. So pretty much by January
we were starting to get back into things. (6:01).
Interviewer: “Of 2011?”
Yeah. January of 2011 I kind of remember starting to get back to things. I mainly remember it
because it was so fucking cold that first winter there in Colorado. There was a field problem
where it was like one day–– I think it was probably 50/55 degrees or something like that, not too
bad. I mean, enough that we were able to like take off our tops when in the field and just have
our tan t-shirts on. Then, in like 36 hours the temperature goes down to like negative 30.
�Needless to say, no one can really let that kind of shut down that field problem because when it’s
that cold–– unless you’re like out in Alaska or you’re training for that–– it’s like, you can’t have
people outside. They’re going to get hypothermia and have toes start falling off. So, that got
canceled. But pretty much that entire January it was really cold. But, I mean, more or less, it
continued for a few months after January, continuing to ease our way back into things. More and
more field problems and everything like that. Still, it’s still a group of–– you have a bunch of
Specialists, like myself [and] my buddy from my old unit and a bunch of other guys, and you
have NCOs, and there’s still this kind of level of respect. It was until, I think, about May/June
period–– May, I want to say–– we got an actual fresh batch of Privates straight from basic
training and everything like that. Anytime that happens you kind of get a little excited because––
I mean especially being first Specialist–– like this is your first group of soldiers to help train up
and you kind of have authority over and everything like that–– do some of the hazing yourself.
(8:06).
Interviewer: “So to pull it back a little bit, you’re kind of in this period where you come
back and things aren't as strict, I guess, as they once were. You’re kind of in that period of
limbo. Did you have time to go out and explore the local area? Did you spend more time
with your family? Describe that–– what you did outside of your military duties during that
time.”
I was seeing soldiers that didn't have any family. I mean, I don’t get–– you know, my family is
the same way–– they don’t understand that if you’re not out in the field or you don’t have CQ or
staff duty where you have to man a phone for 24-hours, or you have some weird detail that
comes down where they say, “Hey. You need to go guard this ammo supplier or these vehicles
for a day” or something like that. I mean, on the average day, you go from 6:30 to 4:00 or 5:00 at
night and then you get off and you’re done. I mean, it’s a 6:30 to 5:00 job, with some rather
lengthy breaks in between, between PT and during lunch and everything like that. But, I mean,
it’s kind of like a normal job in that aspect or whatever. I mean, in my case, I lived in the
barracks, so you go to the barracks. I had my truck or whatever, I can drive off post all I want. I
can go to the bars and everything like that. I mean, I wasn’t that big into the bar scene, but I did
go out with my platoon and everything like that. I mean, my platoon drank a lot–– which is
pretty typical for any kind of infantry unit, but yeah, they drank a lot. And we’re still kind of in
that same kind of boat where there’s still that kind of no one is fucking with each other or
anything like that, and that kind of respect. So, I mean, it didn’t matter if it was a work night or
not, I mean, you–– guys in my unit, I mean, they were always–– every single night–– out at the
bar and in the barracks drinking and everything. You would show up the next morning [to] PT
still drunk or hungover, formation reeking of booze and stuff like that. And that’s just kind of the
way of combat arms or anything like that. Especially when you’re fresh off of a deployment.
There’s definitely excessive drinking and everything like that. I remember one night I was drunk
where my buddy had to take me home, another guy in my platoon got a DUI. Now there’s a
�couple of my buddies that got lost trying to find their car and eventually the cops pulled over and
started talking to them and one of my buddies threw up on the cops shoes. So, I mean, yeah––
pretty standard stuff. I mean, when you’re outside of work, you’re free to do whatever you want.
(11:15).
Interviewer: “So when you get this new batch of Privates in, what sort of role did you play
in kind of getting them up to shape within your unit?”
Well, I mean, PT of course. That’s where it all starts and everything like that. Especially in
Colorado when you are going to that kind of elevation. No matter where you are, you’re sucking.
I mean, the best guys in PT will show up and usually one of the first things we would do is we
take them on–– they call it “The Roller Coaster”–– where right in the back of my units in Fort
Carson, there are all these rolling hills where people would go out and run PT and everything
like that. Their nickname for that was like “The Roller Coaster” or whatever. Anytime you first
get people in, you take them on a ruck march back there and everything like that–– or just any
kind of thing. You’re running up and down these hills, your body is not acclimated to it, you
can’t breathe. Pretty much everyone–– their first time–– pukes or something like that. So, I
mean, you sort of start them off there. Then, I mean, they’re fresh Privates. Basic training
doesn’t really teach you very much. I mean, it teaches you like–– it familiarizes you with it. I
mean, they teach you stuff, but you’re not sure of it. Then you don’t remember certain parts. I
mean, they teach you how to take apart a 240 Bravo machine gun and everything in basic
training, but for most Privates, you get to your unit [and] you don’t remember that stuff and
everything like that. (13:02). So, you have to retrain them on all of that stuff. They–– like the
mortars, you only get a week's worth of training on the mortars in basic and that’s like what it is–
– it’s just very basic and very familiar and everything like that. You don’t know anything. I
mean, just working the actual sites and the guns–– different mortars have a little different finesse
to them and everything like that. Between the 120, 81, and the 60 millimeter mortars–– just [the]
different feel of them. I mean, pretty much when you’re in basic, all you do is kind of just learn
the very minimum of getting your gun up on the poles and everything like that–– the aiming
poles for the mortar. But, I mean, there’s so much more to being a mortar than that–– knowing
each one of the jobs and everything like that. Knowing how to declinate and all those kinds of
things. Then there’s just all kinds of things–– map-reading–– no one knows how to read a map
when they get out. They don’t remember how to do any kind of first aid–– pretty much anything.
You just have to teach them everything. And, I mean, you just had to hammer and hammer [it]
into them. All of the Army skills, what they call them are perishable skills, where if you don’t
use them, you lose them. So, I mean, there’s a constant kind of redrilling, and even once you
teach them, you have to drill and drill and drill them on that. Once again, you’re kind of teaching
them a level of discipline and everything like that, whereas [when] you first get into the Army,
you still have that individual mentality and you’re still not used to the hierarchy–– and let’s just
face it, the bullshit and illogical kind of decisions that you see. (15:10). Whereas when you’re a
�brand new Private–– these new Privates come in and you get a job and it’s like, “Why do we
have to do this?” “We have too. That’s why.” It’s like every Monday, you have to go down to the
mortar pool and you have to do maintenance on your vehicle and check it–– regardless if you
even started that vehicle in the past week. You still have to do it. So, they’ll come down like,
“Why do we have to do this?” or, “Why do we have to do this layout for the third time this
week?” I mean, a lot of the time it’s, “You don’t have to worry about it. That is for someone else
who is higher up, who has a bigger picture of the circumstances, who [it] makes sense too.”
Where you’re at, it seems stupid and everything like that, but I’ll say that half of the time there’s
a reason. The other half of the time, it’s just busy work or someone’s just trying to cover their ass
or they don’t know what the hell is going on [and] they’re just telling you to do something
stupid. So, you’re trying to get them into the right mindset of just “do your job, recognize your
role, and go on.” I mean, you’re not telling them–– you’re not making them into robots or you’re
telling them not to think, but you’re getting them used to not questioning every single little order.
You have to have a little bit of trust, and you might not understand your circumstances, but if
you’re out there in combat, you can’t be questioning, “Why are we moving like this? Why did
we fly through them like that?” “It’s because I fucking told you too.” It’s kind of like that.
(17:00).
Interviewer: “So at what point did you find out that you were going to be deployed again?”
I don’t remember exactly when we figured that one out, but it was always there. I mean, we
knew it. I don’t know exactly when word came down that, “You’re going to Afghanistan” in
2012, but I mean, it came down. I’m probably gonna say around sometime mid-summer in 2011.
We had just moved into this new area. Our entire brigade moved to this other part of the post and
everything. [I’m] pretty sure that’s when we kind of figured it out. Yeah, because pretty much at
that point in time we knew we were going because in November, I believe, we went to JRTC
down in Fort Polk. We had to get some kind of a heads-up to that, yeah.
Interviewer: “So, were you doing any type of training to get yourself ready again to
refresh?”
Oh, yeah. I mean, you’re always training–– maybe not every single day. Sometimes you’re down
in the mortar pool doing layouts, but like I said, depending on what your leaders decide––
depending on how much free time you have–– one day you’ll do a class on map-reading.
Another day you’ll trial your mortars at the arms room and you’ll set them up in the back of your
troop and you’ll run out some poles and you’ll do some drills. You’re going to the ranges and
stuff. Then, of course, we have field problems mixed in where we would go out to the field for a
week and you might do traditional 11-Bravo industry tactics–– like convoy tactics–– or you
might just be out there doing mortar stuff, which is usually the case. (19:15). Usually we go out
and do–– we spend part of the day doing mortar stuff and we’ll have another part of the day
�where we’ll go out and do battle drills and squad movement and platoon movement techniques
and everything like that. I guess I’ll say that one of the benefits of being a mortarman is since
you’re just kind of attached to whatever unit you’re on, you’re never a part of the majority. You
know, a lot of the time people kind of let you go off and do your own thing. And since none of
your leaders–– like above your platoon level–– are mortarmen, they usually don’t take too much
interest to come down and look too closely at you. They’ll stop by one time during the entire
field problem and besides that, the rest of the time, it’s pretty much up to just your leaders
discretion how exactly you’re going to be training and everything like that. (20:19).
Interviewer: “What was your mindset knowing that you were going to go back to
Afghanistan? You had already been there once. What were you thinking? How did you feel
about the fact that you had to go back?”
I was excited. I joined my first deployment or whatever, [but] this time I had a fresh group of
Privates taking underneath my wing and everything like that so that was fun. I was looking
forward to that. I hadn’t experienced anything too horrific or anything like that during my first
deployment, so I still wanted to go over there and do my job, kill some Taliban or whatever.
Interviewer: “So when did you leave?”
Well, I guess, I personally left in April of 2012–– late April–– whereas the rest of my unit left in
the beginning of March. Before we deployed or whatever, after JRTC and all of that stuff, each
platoon or unit was asked to give up a guy to go to this dog handling for a couple months
beforehand, where we would work with bomb sniffing dogs and they trained us up on that. Then
they would send us out and we had a dog we were supposed to go–– when our platoons would go
out. (22:19). So, I went through that. We spent some time in Indiana then Arizona. It was like the
Ranger School of bomb sniffing dog course–– not like it was some real physical challenge or
anything like that. I mean, it was just the fact that the attrition rate was like 50 percent and I
eventually ended up flunking out because you have to have a certain–– you have to be able to
read your dog and I just wasn’t able to get my dog to respond to me. I guess I didn’t read him
very well but, nevertheless, I didn’t make it through that. Then they send me back to a unit and
they had all deployed, so now it was just kind of waiting–– I’m sitting there with a bunch of kind
of like broken guys doing rear admin stuff–– rear administrations of who couldn’t deploy and
other guys who either just got into the unit or for some reason they couldn’t deploy when
everyone else left and we’re kind of just sitting there waiting for a flight. So, we sat around for
two/three weeks or whatever. Then we shipped out to Afghanistan, once again. [We] went the
same route pretty much. I think we ended up stopping in Manas for a few days and then, instead
of flying into Kandahar, we flew into Bagram. And once again we kind of just disseminated out
into different units once we were there, and tried to get our flights to our respective FOBs where
all of our guys were out at that time. (24:19). This time around my unit was in Nangarhar
�province which is further north. My platoon was actually stationed at a FOB called Finley
Shields, which is kind of right in the heart of Jalalabad–– which is the capital of that province.
So, I mean, that was kind of a nice change of pace from Kandahar, where you were out in the
middle of nowhere, in the middle of the fucking desert. Jalalabad is a lot more green–– I mean,
still a rather arid environment, but still we’re in a city. Then the area outside of the city, it’s still
kind of built up with villages and they have irrigation going and everything like that, so we
actually had some kind of farmland to look at occasionally. But, it was still mostly desert once
you got further out and everything like that. My platoon this time around, instead of doing the
whole mortar thing, what my unit did was they took the mortar platoon–– which was originally
assigned to the headquarters troop in our squadron–– and we probably had 20 some odd guys in
it, and right before deployment they–– well not right before–– but a certain time before
deployment–– probably around JRTC–– they split the mortar platoon up and five guys went to
alpha troop, bravo troop, charlie troop. Then, my section–– it was probably about 12/13 guys––
we stayed in headquarters and we were tasked as the personal security detachment for our
squadron commander when we were in Afghanistan. So, when we were in JRTC, we weren’t
actually doing the training of an actual mortarman–– we were doing convoy tactics and
everything like that, and kind of training to escort this guy around. So, that’s what we did when
we got to Afghanistan. (26:40).
Interviewer: “Was that similar to your first mission in your first deployment?”
No. I mean, the first mission in the first deployment was we were just supposed to take some
ANA, Afghan Army guys, to some polling stations or something like that. I mean, we weren’t
tasked with watching after our squadron commander ever. I mean, the first deployment, that first
mission was just these guys were tagging along with us–– we’re driving through these places,
they got off–– whereas my platoon in this particular mission, our job was to specifically ensure
the safety of our battalion commander and get him to wherever he was going. So, I mean,
typically we had a select few places where we went. I mean, as battalion commander or squadron
commander, he’s not going out on patrols and everything like that. But, we’re escorting him
pretty much everyday to whatever FOB that alpha troop is on, or the FOB that charlie troop is on
and bravo troop is on. Then there was just the other main bottom area, which was literally right
across the row where he might occasionally go and everything like that. Even just across the
street, you can’t go outside of the gate without an escort. So, we had to get in our vehicles and
drive over there. (28:07).
Interviewer: “So were you driving these vehicles? What was your specific role?”
I was a gunner on–– I forgot the system–– but pretty much we had four vehicles. They were
MATVs, which, if you know what an MRAP is, they’re smaller, they’re four-seaters, and then
you have the gunner standing up out the top. I was in the lead vehicle, but instead of having one
�standing at the top of the system, we had one of the automated turret systems, where I would be
sitting in the seat behind the driver [and] I have a video screen right here, and I have pretty much
a joystick, [so] I just worked the gun from there. A really cool system and everything like that.
So, yeah. That was my job. Then occasionally, a lot of times we’d have like one guy who
couldn’t do such-and-such. He couldn’t go on the mission for some reason, in which case
another guy might take my spot and I would rotate out into another gunner’s position where I
would be standing up top in a different vehicle. I don’t know. It’s kind of weird. I’ll say about a
third of the time I went out, I had to switch out with someone else’s spot. Usually I’d go into––
I’d actually be in the vehicle with our squadron commander standing up top. That guy was kind
of a douche. (30:06). Like, he was the kind of guy who really, really got off on the whole Army
thing–– like in a bad way. Like, way to gung-ho and everything–– and not in a good sense. I
mean, he was kind of pudgy and everything like that, so he’s not like some kind of super Ranger
guy–– though he did have his Ranger tab, which is another funny story–– but he’s the kind of
guy that would smoke cigars inside the MATV when we were going around. He actually named
his son Patton and everything like that, so yeah. He’s striving to be the next Douglas MacArthur
and everything like that. But, we were escorting him around. We would escort him to–– in
addition to the various FOBs out there–– we would escort him also to the governor’s palace in
the middle of the city and everything. He would usually go there once a week and he would talk
to the Afghani governor there about–– I don’t know what. (31:17).
Interviewer: “Did you have any contact with the enemy in any of these missions that you
were on?”
No. I didn’t. I mean, one thing that kind of puts in perspective how these–– how do I say this?
You kind of got a sense of the Taliban’s actual ability to perceive things in the fact that we didn’t
get attacked. This is 2012. The Afghan Army is more–– I mean, they’re running patrols out
there. They’re all over the province. You go out and you see them everywhere. And the Taliban
knows that our time is kind of winding down. When we would go out, we would roll through an
area. It’d be like–– maybe we would get to a FOB and then we’d hear like that ten minutes after
we passed through that area that the Afghan Army came through and they hit an IED or
something like that. Or, it was like either right before or right after. I mean, we’d roll through
these areas every single day, so you kind of got the sense that they knew that they didn’t want to
provoke us too much to get more involved than we already were. Well, I don’t think we were
that active, I mean, even with the patrols and everything at that point in time. And also, I think
this might be kind of an economic kind of thing where as we’re driving these giant MATVs,
whereas the Afghan Army is driving Toyota Hilux’s. It takes a much bigger bomb to blow us up
and even if they start firing at us, we’re in a giant armored vehicle. It would be very hard to
actually kill one of us and not the Afghans. (33:37).
�Interviewer: “Do you think they purposely avoided your convoys because they couldn’t do
much to you?”
Yeah I do, because, I mean, there were many times where the Afghan Army got hit right after we
came through an area. So, that meant they would have had to watch us go through–– and there
were points in time where we had to stop and wait at a certain area, so if they really did want to
hit us, they could have. I mean, there’s one main road. There’s not a lot of alternate routes you
can take or anything like that, so we’re going to like four different places and we’re rolling out
every single day. They know we’re going through there everyday–– if they wanted to hit us, they
could have hit us. I mean, I don’t know if it was also the fact that–– they probably knew that also
it was our squadron Commander out there so, I don’t know, maybe an idea that [if] you take out
this guy, a whole shit-storm would come down on you. But again, a province up in Kunar–– our
brigade Sergeant Major or whoever, they were out doing some key leader engagement and a
suicide bomber took him out. So, I mean, it’s not like the Taliban is everywhere laying off–– and
it all depends on the area and everything like that. I mean, Kunar has always been kind of a shitstorm in certain areas of Kandahar. Like I said, it’s always been kind of a bad place. But, where
we were at, nothing much. (35:10). Like a couple of weeks before I arrived, they attacked our
FOB and everything like that. They blew up [a] big old hole in the wall of our FOB, and a couple
Taliban guys came storming in and there was a big firefight and our guys ended up just
completely waxing those guys and everything like that. They threw grenades and ended up
burning down a couple barracks and there were holes through other barracks walls and
everything like that. Like, they blew a hole in the wall right here and then there's a line right here
of CHUs where our guys were staying. One of my NCOs, he was on the first floor and his
room’s like right on the very end and there–– he wasn’t there at the time–– but he came back to
his room and there are bullet holes all through his place. Our guys took him out. A few guys got
wounded, but no one seriously or anything like that–– just flesh wounds and ankles or something
like that. Guys got Purple Hearts, but these Taliban guys got destroyed real quick. I wasn’t there
for any of that, but besides that nothing much happened. One time we were on patrol–– one time
we were escorting a guy–– [and] another one of our platoon’s were out and they got into a little
firefight with the Taliban. We were right by their area and we just stepped on the gas and
literally, as soon as we pulled up, the firing stopped. I don’t know if they saw us pulling up or
what. Or maybe they were more likely to attack this other platoon because they recognized that
my platoon was the one with the squadron Commander. Or, for all I know, it could have been
just completely dumb-luck. You don’t know. You can’t really sit down and talk with the Taliban.
As far as we know, our interpreter wasn’t Taliban and he couldn’t tell us that. (37:39).
Interviewer: “Now you had talked before, when I asked you about how you felt about going
back to Afghanistan, that you wanted to go and you wanted to essentially–– you said
something on the grounds of you wanted to get contact with the enemy–– or you were, in a
way, looking forward to it. Was there any frustration that you weren’t getting contact with
the enemy? Did you want that, in a way? Or, were you happy that you were––”
�Yeah. I wanted the firefight and everything–– and do all of the cool guy shit you see in the
movies, but I mean at the same time, you go out on patrol every single day and it just gets
monotonous where it’s like, you’re just done with it. You’re like, “This is just bullshit” and
everything like that. My first deployment–– anytime they ever needed any mortar to go out on
some kind of mission, I wanted to go. By the second deployment I’m like, “I don’t want to go
out today. I want to stay in my room and watch movies.” [Like], I didn’t want to get my gear on
in 110/120 degree weather, so I can drive down the same road I’ve driven down for the past three
months and everything like that. So my desire for combat was definitely dulled in my second
time around and everything like that. (39:17).
Interviewer: “Just kind of serve your time and go home at that point?”
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, the whole time I continued to desire [it], but it is also this counter
desire that I don’t want to go out and do this bullshit right now. I’ve escorted this commander to
FOB Toracom 30 fucking times–– it’s going to be the same thing. Though, at the same time,
certain FOBs have certain benefits, whereas Toracom and–– I don’t remember the couple of
other FOBs–– it was FOB Torkham which was right on the border of Pakistan where the actual
border crossing is. So, it was kind of cool where it was kind of all of the bounds up and around.
You could actually run up a couple of them and see Pakistan. They had really good food, so that
was always a benefit if you went there. Then there was FOB Shinwar, which was a shithole.
They didn’t have any good food. Then there was one other one where our Bravo Troop was at
and they had good food, so we would go there. A lot of the time, we’d steal a bunch of sodas and
Gatorades from their mess facility and keep them for our platoon. We couldn’t do that at our
FOB. I mean, there were some benefits to that, but yeah. (40:58).
Interviewer: “Now, did you have any sort of experience or, not contact, but relationship––
or did you come across any members of the Afghan Army?”
Yeah. Like I said, being 2012 there’s this increasing emphasis on getting the Afghans involved
and everything like that. When we first got there, anytime our commander wanted to go out––
which was damn near everyday–– there was our facility and then there was a compound that was
attached to it. When I say compound, it was another kind of bricked-up, walled-in area and
everything like that. But, there was a gate in between and they couldn’t cross over into our area–
– we had to go over there. Just to go over there, we needed to escort our Commander over there
just because there was this–– we didn’t trust the Afghanis at this time. There were a lot of
Afghan Army/Afghan Police attacks on soldiers, so we couldn’t just allow him to walk over
there. So any time he had to go over there and meet someone, one of our guys had to come. But
then any time we rolled out, we had to go over there and tell them, “Hey, we want some of your
guys to go escort us.” We’d go there and tell them we’d have to wait for them to show up.
�They’d usually be late or something like that. Eventually, it just got to be too much of a hassle so
we just said, “Fuck it.” (42:49). One time, we did have some of these guys come over–– I think
they were Afghan Police and Afghan Army–– and you spent the day trying to give them some
training–– like marksmanship training, working with weapons and everything like that. We told
them how to promptly hold and then get down behind your weapon and have a sturdy shooting
position. Then we took them out to this little 25 meter range we had built up on our FOB, and we
set up some targets and we had them shoot at it, and they were pretty much the worst fucking
marksmans I have ever seen in my life. I didn’t expect them to be getting bullseyes or anything
like one after another, but I assumed [that] when you have a target that is three feet, three-and-ahalf feet by two-and-a-half feet wide, only 25 meters away, and you have an AK-47, you should
be able to hit the paper at least. I mean, you don’t even have to aim out of your sights for that––
you can just point and shoot. I could give a gun to my kid sister or something and she could do
that, but these guys–– I mean, it’s remarkable how they were completely incompetent at this and
they couldn’t hit the paper. I mean, they didn’t know how to just aim down their sights at all. It
was shocking. (44:30).
Interviewer: “Were they using any sort of American weaponry?”
Yeah. There were–– I believe the Afghan Police, they tend to have the whole, kind of, leftover
AK-47s, whereas the actual Afghan Army, they have M-16s that they got from us somehow. So
yeah, they had two different weapons mainly, but they were pretty fucking incompetent. Pretty
much after the first few months, we just stopped worrying about them.
Interviewer: “Talking to some other veterans, a lot of them had talked about how marijuana
usage was common, at least in their experience with the Afghan soldiers. A lot of them
would get high while they were on duty. Did you see anything like that?”
No. Like I said, pretty much our interactions with them was [to] go grab them, tell them we’re
going out on a trip to escort our Commander somewhere, tell them, they show up, our
Commander shows up, begin the vehicles, we rollout. So no, I didn’t actually see any of them
getting high and everything. But, I mean, I’ve heard stories from other guys. My first
deployment, our unit ran some kind of training program for the Afghan Army on our FOB, and I
remember hearing one of the Afghan guys in the training program–– I don’t know if they failed
out–– I don’t remember exactly what was going on–– but he was going through like withdrawals
during the training program. They needed to miss [for] some medical treatment or something like
that. I don’t know. Then you hear other things like that the Afghan security forces in the towers
smoke weed or something like that. But, I didn’t see it. (46:41).
Interviewer: “So you were talking about–– we were talking earlier that it was known that,
especially like within, you guys knew [that] the Taliban had a sense that the Americans
�were in the process of pulling out, you know. Give control to the Afghan people. How did
you feel that was going? Did you feel like that was going well or not?”
From my perspective, it seemed fine. I would say yeah, these guys–– the Afghan Army and
everything like that–– they were incompetent. I mean, they showed up late and they couldn’t
shoot and everything like that. But at the same time, I think they do have some NCO–– some
guys who have been in it. Occasionally, you’ll see a guy who actually looks squared away and
everything like that. Like I said earlier, when you go out, they are doing patrols and everything
like that. When you see them, I mean, you’re bound to pick up something. You can only hit so
many bombs before you start realizing [that] we need to start looking for bombs and how to look
for them. So, these guys did know things. There’s times where I remember one time going out
and we would drive up and we had to stop because the Afghan Army guys were in a row because
they just found an IED and they were waiting for Explosive Ordnance Disposal–– EOD–– to
show up. So they are able to find these bombs. They have some competence to them, so there’s
that, and there weren't too many attacks in the whole Nangarhar region. So in that area, it did
seem pretty squared away. And not every Afghan is a pot-smoking, loser or whatever. (48:48).
Our interpreter, he was actually from Jamabad and at the end of the day he would go home to his
family and stuff like that. He was the same age as me at the time and everything like that. I
mean, he had his head on his shoulders. He was a smart guy and everything like that, pretty cool.
He wasn’t any kind of radicalized or anything like that. He had some pretty liberal, enlightened
views. Though, I mean, there was one funny time where one of the guys in my truck–– another
one of the Privates that came in, but by this time, now that we’re deployed, he’s actually very
competent. He was one of the more successful soldiers, but he was one of the guys who just
always liked to talk shit and get underneath people’s skin. I guess you could take it as a
compliment at the fact that he felt comfortable enough to mess with our interpreter and
everything like that. [Had] a big debate about–– at one point in time–– about the Quran and
everything which is normally a big no-no. [It’s like] just don’t bring up religion around the
Afghans. But, I mean, the guy’s pretty cool. (50:11). It was just funny for the fact that at one
point in time he was saying, “No. It’s been proven all the stuff in the Quran,”–– I’m not a
theological expert by any means, but according to his claims, at some point in time Muhammad
or Allah like split the moon in two and then put it back together. He said that NASA went up and
actually verified that. My buddy is just like making fun of this and I [had] just had [it]. I’m like,
“No. No. No. That is not true. We are NASA. NASA is our program. They did not find any of
this. We would have heard about this.” But, yeah, besides that he was a really good guy and
competent. So not all Afghans were all radical, kind of extremists or incompetent drug addicts. I
mean overall, there wasn’t too much action going on in the region. I mean, you did see them out
there and some of them hit IEDs, but they also found quite a bit. I doubt the Taliban is any more
competent than the Afghan Army. (51:30).
�Interviewer: “So, your main job was to run these convoys. Were you doing anything else
during this deployment?”
No, not really. That was our main task, just to escort our Commander around. And, like I said, he
was a rather gung-ho guy. He wanted to actually get into contact more than anyone else I think. I
remember one time the Taliban had detonated a huge bomb in the road or whatever. There was a
massive crater–– I mean, looking at this room, [it] was probably about the width of this room or
something like that. So I mean looking at the room, I don’t know–– ten feet wide or something
like that. So, it was a pretty big crater and it was in the middle of the actual paved street on the
way to one of our FOBs. So as soon as they detonated that, all of the sudden, for the next like
two weeks–– we went to that FOB every single day–– and like the day after this happened we
went there [and] we went to FOB Shinwar. We were there and we were going to roll back and as
soon as we pulled out of the gate, our Commander came over the radio, “Let’s go and stop by
that crater and actually stop and get out so I can take some pictures of that. As soon as that came
over the radio everyone in my truck goes “Ah. You idiot.” Because, I mean, just come out and
say it. We know you want to stop and try to draw fire or something like that. You want to stop by
an IED site to take pictures? I mean, come on man. I want to get into contact too, but don’t do it
in a way that is actually willingly exposing us to contact. If it happens, it happens but yeah, no
one really liked him. (53:48).
Interviewer: “What was your opinion on the general status of the war in Afghanistan at this
time? It’s kind of a general question, but did you have a sense of how things were going in a
broader sense when you were there?”
I don’t know. I would say [during] my first deployment–– and maybe it was just for the fact that
more people got actually killed out of our brigade than in the second time around, and I think we
were also a little more consolidated whereas the second time around–– my first deployment,
most of our brigades were within the Kandahar province, whereas this time around–– I meant
most of our battalions within our brigade were in Kandahar–– but the second time around it was
only like 361 in Nangarhar. I think another battalion was up in Kunar, and I don’t even know
where everyone else was. So I think it was a little bit harder to get a sense of how things were––
we weren’t getting attacked, so. But I mean, you hear some attacks. Then also people–– it kind
of seemed like we weren’t going out on patrols as much and everything like that. So it’s really
hard to say. (55:24). I don’t know, I mean Afghanistan, it’s never going to be like a westernized
nation or anything like that. But I mean, at the same time, when we go out to the Governor’s
palace and you can see schoolgirls out–– depending on the time of the year–– that kind of stops
in the summer. But I mean, you actually see schoolgirls out going to school, so that’s one
positive sign that the Taliban isn’t too influenced or anything like that and there’s some kind of
success there. I guess you could kind of get a sense that–– when you roll down the road, you can
get a sense that some areas are more friendly to the Afghan government–– the U.S.–– than
�others. Sometimes you go down the road [and] kids and people would wave at you and you
would wave back. Other times you roll through an area and people are just mean mugging you
and fucking little kids are throwing rocks at you and everything like that. So, I mean, you kind of
get the sense that–– I mean, judge by the kids. If the kids are nice to you, the area is probably
pretty good. [If] you roll through an area where kids are throwing rocks at you or something like
that, you probably can get a sense that their daddies don’t like you too much, but yeah, I don’t
know. Nangarhar, most of the time, seemed pretty well put together in the sense that as well as
an Afghan province could be put together and everything like that. (57:04).
Interviewer: “Now is there anything else in your second deployment that sticks out to you
that maybe we didn’t cover? I know you mentioned that–– I think it was Combat Outpost
Keating–– The Outpost book that was written.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “You had some men in your unit that were involved in that? Or you were
somehow––”
Well just for the fact that–– like going back to when I first got to the unit. Like I said, these guys
had just gotten back from Afghanistan–– or they had just gotten back from Keating and the rest
in the Kunar/Nuristan area. Our bravo troop who was up at Keating–– my platoon Sergeant at the
time, I don’t know if he got wounded there or not, but I mean, at one point in time he got
wounded or whatever. But he was at Keating when it all went down. They lost one of their
mortars there. Another one of my guys, he was at Keating when it went down. He earned a Silver
Star. Like you said, the book The Outpost, a few times he got excused for the day to go interview
with the actual guy who was writing the book. When we first got there, there were these guys
that were at Keating, who were now in my platoon working with the guys who got the Medal of
Honor, [and] guys that also died and everything like that. Then the rest of the guys–– even if they
were at Keating–– they pretty much experienced contact on like a constant basis. They fired a
shitton of mortars. My first Sergeant when I got there and my roommate when I first got there,
they had both been wounded when they were up during that previous deployment. They weren’t
at Keating. Actually, the first Sergeant and my roommate got wounded at the same time and they
were together. So I mean, they had a pretty tough deployment and everything like that. Now it’s
kind of interesting that these guys were at Keating and everything like that. (59:38).
Interviewer: “So when was your tour over? You said you got there in late April, when did
you finally end up leaving?”
�At the end of November. I don’t know if we made it to December. If we did it would have been
the first couple of days of December. I know we did miss Thanksgiving, so it was definitely at
the end of November that we finally left there.
Interviewer: “Now was there any type of award ceremony? You’ve been on quite a few
combat missions. What was that whole process [like]? Was there any type of award?”
Yeah. Well traditionally, the way it has become–– which is kind of messed up–– is everyone
kind of gets an end-of-tour award, where your platoon Commander writes up a recommendation
and they submit it. Typically Specialists like myself and Privates below and even–– I’ll say
typically E-6 and below, they get Army Commendation medals, unless you actually saw combat
or you did something valorous, in which case you might get an ARCOM with a V device–– V
for valor–– or a Bronze Star with a V device or just a Bronze Star. Of course, if you do
something more extraordinary, you get something more. But yeah, standard procedure [is] just
ARCOM. (1:01:38). Though my first deployment, I got fucked out of that because there was
some weird guidelines my first unit about like–– I don’t know, it was weird. Like all of the
Scouts got awards, but all of our guys got kind of fucked over. Whereas my PCS award–– that’s
another thing–– it’s like anytime you leave your unit, you’re just getting an award also. So, I got
an Army Achievement Medal for my first unit deployment and transferring out of my first unit.
But my second time around, I got ARCOM for that. But the whole system is just fucked up and it
pisses a lot of vets off because it’s just an automatic thing. And it doesn’t matter what you do
really. I mean, it matters what you do–– if you do something valorous, you are going to get
something more, but it’s fucked up because I–– who went out on patrol everyday–– am getting
the same award as someone who sat inside the wire, just inside the talk all day. I personally don’t
think anyone should get an award for just going over there. I mean, guys in World War II–– you
go through Hiroshima, Okinawa–– it’s like you have a campaign ribbon or something like that.
Now, it’s like I put on my Class A uniform and I’m looking like a South American dictator and
everything with all of my ribbons and cords and everything like that. So I mean, that’s kind of
fucked up because, in a way, it seems like you’re implying those guys didn’t last which is
obviously not true. (1:03:21). But even so, I know guys that have gotten into combat and
everything like that and they still come out with just ARCOM, whereas anyone who is E-7 or
above, they automatically get a Bronze Star which is completely fucked up. You can have an E-7
or a First Lieutenant or something who sat on their ass in a talk, or just coordinating the base
defense–– and I’m not saying they don’t work, but they’re never putting their ass on the line. I’m
not saying I did either. I’m not saying I deserve anything, but I’m just saying that I know guys
who did do this and you’re saying that this guy who did nothing–– just because of his rank––
deserves more than this Private, or whatever, who’s been working his butt off and putting his ass
on the line. You’re giving him something more? I’ve heard the argument made, “Well when
you’re higher up…When you’re an E-7 you’re a Lieutenant, Captain, you have more
responsibility. You are responsible for all of this.” Which, okay, yeah that’s true. You have more
�in your scope of focus, but you’re telling me that a Private who goes out every single day, sweats
his ass off, watching his buddies back and everything like that, gets into contact and everything
like that. Maybe he loses friends and everything like that. He’s putting himself on the line. I
mean, he’s working physically harder–– maybe his job isn’t as mentally toughest. When I say
mentally tough I mean like intelligently engaging, like maybe his job doesn’t use as much critical
thinking, but you’re telling me that he’s not working as hard as this person who’s sitting on their
butt all day. He’s probably working harder. He’s putting his ass on the line. And still, this E-7––
this Lieutenant–– is getting more than this Private. That is just fucked up to the ultimate level.
(1:05:34). Like I think I mentioned on the earlier tape, the guy from our troop that got blown-up
and killed, I’d worked with him closely on a number of occasions. I really liked the guy and
everything. I never hung out with him outside of work, but I mean [a] real funny guy–– awesome
person–– and he got blown-up and killed. His wife and his kid are never going to see him again,
and he gets a Bronze Star for that. The same award as this fucker who’s sitting in a talk doing
nothing. He gives his life, and according to the Army, he gets the same award? It is the biggest
fucking injustice in the world. (1:06:18).
Interviewer: “It’s kind of like insufficiently awarding people for what they’re doing.”
Yeah. I don’t want to say insignificant, which would imply that some people deserve more–– I’m
saying people deserve less. Go ahead and give that Private in our comp, but don’t give that First
Lieutenant, who’s in the talk, any award. Don’t give him shit. You don’t need it, who cares? I
mean, there’s this thing where it’s like now in the Army, if you want to get promoted, you need
awards and everything like that. Well, change that system and everything like that. You don’t
have to give away all of these awards. I mean, I think it does an injustice to soldiers in the past
who didn’t get awards like they do now, and it definitely does an injustice to lower-ranking
soldiers who do more and risk more [who] get something awarded than someone who possibly
had a “cake job” their entire deployment.
Interviewer: “Do you think that can affect their performance or their performance of their
duty? Or do you think that doesn’t really come in?”
I don’t think it comes in because when you’re out on patrol you’re not thinking “I want an
award. I want an award.” I mean some guys–– I’m sure–– do want to get some kind of award or
recognition. I mean, I never really gave a shit that much about that, except for when it came to
the idea of promotion points. Since it is a part of the game, you do need promotion points–– it
shouldn’t be a part of it, but you do. So I just wanted those promotion points. But overall, and
even if you do want an award, I would say for probably about 99 percent of people it’s not like a
constant thing where you are thinking about it and it’s motivating you or not. I mean, you’re
there to do your job–– that’s what you care about–– whether you do your job and are fulfilling
your obligations to the guys around you and your unit. (1:08:28).
�Interviewer: “So you finished your deployment, where did you go?”
Well [I] finished the deployment, went back home to the States, same kind of thing with my first
unit around. You get back, it’s the beginning of December, you’re waiting for everyone else to
get back, you’re finally going to take your post-deployment block-leave during Christmastime––
when you would normally take block leave. But, we had a few weeks to go. We’re waiting for
people to get back. Pretty much, we’re going into work at nine o’clock [and] they’re telling us to
go home at 9:30.
Interviewer: “Where were you at this time?”
We’re back in Colorado–– Fort Carson. I mean, we’re still waiting for guys to get back. There’s
nothing to do. There’s absolutely nothing to do. And the rear detachment guys who didn’t
deploy, they can stay at whatever details or CQ staff duty that’s going on–– any kind of
maintenance–– they just leave that to those guys. The guys who just got back, they’re not going
to make you do anything like that. So me and my buddies, everyday–– coming back from
deployment, especially the second time around, it was just awesome because all this money and
everything like that. Nothing but free time. And some guys completely blow it all, but I mean,
mainly, it’s just the fact that me and my buddies would get off of work at 9:30 and would
immediately go to the shop at the little convenience stores on post. They sell alcohol there, and
we would just get three cases of beer and we’d just sit at our barracks room all day playing Call
of Duty until five o’clock–– drinking the whole time until we got bored–– and then we’d order
pizza and then we’d start playing drinking games and everything like that. Then we’d go back to
playing Call of Duty–– this was all at two o’clock in the morning. Get up, go into work, and
repeat the same process again. It was so fun and [we] drank so much, but it was so chill and we
had no worries. (1:10:43).
Interviewer: “How much time did you have left in the military when you got back from your
second deployment?”
About a year. My ETS date was January 26, 2014. We got back in December of 2012, but I had
saved up enough leave that I was going to be able to start my terminal leave pretty much the last
two months or so–– two-and-a-half months. I had enough leave saved up that I could leave the
Army early, and for the last two-and-a-half months of my time. I was home and everything like
that. I was just using my leave days up. So yeah, about a year left. So I quickly got into the “I’m
checked out” kind of mindset. I mean, I still did my job and everything like that. I continued to
train the new batch of Privates that came in afterwards and the Privates from the past
deployments who are now turning Specialists. That’s always kind of a nice little feeling of
accomplishment, seeing how far they’ve progressed and everything. Especially considering like–
– I’m sure my NCOs would disagree–– but considering that I would say I spend probably, like
�me and some of the other Specialists, we probably spent 75 percent more time with these guys,
teaching them stuff more than you would see any of our NCOs. They did teach them, but kind of,
like, some of the–– it was really me and a few other Specialists that really hammered into these
guys. (1:12:36). Most of the time the way it kind of worked was our NCOs were going to spend
most of their day inside the office and everything like that–– the mortar office. They would tell
us to go out and do something. They would tell us Specialists and we would go out and make
sure the Privates did it and we would help them along the way and teach them things. Like,
working with the Humvees and everything like that. Then, of course, there would be other times
where the NCOs would ask us to lead classes–– and they would teach classes too and everything
like that–– and whether we’re leading the class or the NCO’s leading the class, we’re there
teaching them the whole time. What the NCO might run through–– like taking apart and putting
together a 240–– as soon as they’re done, we split off behind weapons and it would be like me on
one weapon, supervising a bunch of Privates and everything. I don’t need the training, they know
I can do it, so they tell me to make sure that they do it. You kind of slowly teach these guys how
to be soldiers. It’s kind of like a good accomplishment seeing how far they go and everything
like that. (1:13:51).
Interviewer: “Did you spend the entirety of your 12 months training this new batch of guys
then? Or did you have other duties as well?”
Well the Privates didn’t get there until like May, June, July–– kind of like when the first batch of
Privates got in. Maybe a later bit later, actually. Maybe it was like June/July we got the new
Privates in. But at this point in time–– well, one part–– I was checked out. So the NCOs aren’t
going to ask too much of me when it comes to this new batch of Privates. I worked with both, but
at this point in time, the Privates from the first deployment, they’re Specialists now. It’s their job
to take care of these new Privates. So anytime a job would come down, they’re not going to ask
me–– well, they’re still going to ask me–– but at the same time, they’re going to ask these other
Privates–– or these new Specialists–– to take care of these Privates because they’re going to be
the next leaders and everything like that. It’s their job to teach these guys up. At this time, I’m
three levels up the hierarchy of Privates, new Specialists, “I’m getting out, I don’t give a fuck.”
So I was just kind of at the point where I’m kind of senior [to] all of these guys–– it’s kind of just
more supervising them. Though, it’s hard to supervise and not give input or anything like that. I
mainly tried to take a step back. Any time any of my old Privates/new Specialists would come up
to me and a lot of the time I would say, “It’s your job. Figure it out.” and everything like that.
(1:15:58).
Interviewer: “Does anything particularly stick out to you during this time, or is it kind of
waiting till that clock runs out?
�I was mainly waiting till the clock runs out. We had to go through a bunch of classes that you
have to do when you’re exiting.
Interviewer: “Describe those.”
I don’t remember. We had to go through some finance class. Teaching us [how] to write
resumes. You need to go around and make sure you have all of these different paperwork
stamped off from finance. You need to make sure you turn in all your gear, which is the biggest
pain in the ass of all because they want it looking better than you actually got it–– and that’s not
an exaggeration at all. I don’t know. There’s so many different [things]–– it takes like three
months to get it all done and stuff.
Interviewer: “Do they try to give you some guidance as to how civilian life is going to be
different than what you’re used to in the military? Since the fact that you had been on two
deployments–– like was there an effort to try to help you decompress and to get you back
into civilian life as smoothly as possible or do they kind of let you do that on your own?”
Well when you first come back from deployment, they did give us a couple of classes on that––
or something like that–– like how things are going to be different. And when you’re exiting our
military again, they kind of go through the same kind of classes where it’s like, “Things are
different” and everything like that. I mean, like you go to college [and] these little 19 year-olds
are going to frustrate the hell out of you and people are not going to be disciplined. I mean, they
tell you all of this stuff–– I don’t know how well it works. I don’t know how well they can
prepare anyone for that. It’s just–– I think–– individual level. (1:18:00). Some guys handle it
more than others. I mean, some people are just charismatic and can just jump right back into
civilian life, and then others have a hard time reconnecting. There’s like such a divide between
the civilian mindset and the military mindset of priorities, personal responsibility. Civilians, of
course, are going to complain about things that soldiers are going to find trivial and you don’t
have the connection between you and civilians that you had in your unit and stuff. Some people
handle it better than others, and of course some people have other demons that they might have
held onto from their deployment or whatever. They can’t reintegrate as well, and I don’t know,
the Army just messes up your life in a lot of different ways and everything like that, and then
you’re starting completely over with your life. [You] get out and depending on how long you
spent in–– I spent six years in–– so I go to college and I remember being in this Spanish class
and saying what years we were born in in Spanish, I was born in ‘88 and the closest person to my
age was like 1994 or something. I mean, there’s this big kind of divide and these kids are just
getting out of high school and you’ve been on two combat deployments–– and of course if you
stay in longer, it’s even worse. I don’t know. It depends on the person, like I said. My squad
leader for my second deployment–– I don’t know exactly what happened–– when I was
transferring out of the unit, I thought he was staying in [and] he was going to PCSing–– moving
�to Hawaii and everything–– but I found out that shortly after I got out, apparently he did not PCS
and for some reason, he got out of the Army. I thought he reenlisted or whatever, but I don’t
know exactly what happened. I don’t know if he got in trouble–– I don’t think he did–– or I don’t
know if there’s some kind of program that let him opt out, but he got out and for some reason he
killed himself. I don’t know if that was Army related or not. (1:20:51).
Interviewer: “Before we paused here you were talking about dealing with different people
that you’ve known dealing with being out of the military and kind of decompressing [and]
readjusting into civilian life. I wanted to pull it back just a little bit and just talk about
when you got out of the service, did you have an idea of where you wanted to go, what you
wanted to do, did you have a plan?”
They require you to have a plan before you get out. Like, you have to show them that you have
employment and some kind of housing setup before you get out or something like that. I don’t
know what happens if you don’t show them that–– I mean, they can't just keep you in forever,
but that’s a part of it. You have to do that, so before I got out I started applying around–– I knew
I wanted to go back to school, so I started applying around. I applied to Western and I applied to
Grand Valley. (1:22:04).
Interviewer: “What did you want to study?”
Well, I wanted to study history and I originally went in as a Social Studies major, with the whole
other teaching major thing, but I quickly decided that I wanted to go beyond just high school or
whatever. I wanted to eventually go on and go to grad school and get a PhD and become a
history professor, so I quickly switched over to actually just a straightforward history major.
Interviewer: “So you did choose Grand Valley–– just to make that clear.”
Yes, I did choose Grand Valley. My grades were okay in high school. I think I had a 3.4 or a 3.3
GPA. I didn’t think I could have gotten into Michigan, though now that I’ve talked to some
veterans I probably could have because as long as you have that GI Bill–– a guaranteed paycheck
for the school–– they lower their standards somewhat for you. I’ve heard of people getting into
Michigan with lower GPAs than mine, but I could be wrong. But yes, I chose Grand Valley. Like
I said, at the time I thought that I was going to possibly go into a high school history teacher. I
remember going through school and I knew a number of my teachers went to Grand Valley, so I
was like it’s only an hour away from my hometown. I spent all this time away, teachers went
there. It seemed like a good fit. (1:23:44).
�Interviewer: “Is there anything that you would like to mention before we end this interview
here? How would you say that the military–– being in the military–– and your deployments
affected your life overall?”
I don’t know if there’s anything else to add for my military experience at this point, but overall
how it impacted my life, I guess I’d say I would definitely not be as successful as I am now. Like
I said, in high school I wasn’t the worst kid, I wasn’t the best kid ever. Right in the middle of my
class–– 3.3 GPA so I was like, so it was like a B+ average. But, I mean, my parents rode my ass
the whole time. I probably shouldn’t have even gotten that GPA and stuff. But now that I’ve
been at Grand Valley, I’ve done very, very well. Like, I think my GPA is a 3.9 right now and I
hold that to the military. One, I mean, it’s given me the discipline to do work–– I mean I still
struggle to get myself to do work and stuff instead of playing video games sometimes, but it’s
helped me somewhat there and it’s given me kind of fear of failing, and also this overall lull that
I recognize–– I guess I can recognize–– how do I say this? I know what I am capable of. So the
Army has given me the ability to strive to that level of what I know what I am able to do.
(1:26:04). I’m not saying that I’m a complete perfectionist or whatever, but I know I can be right
up there and everything like that. And when I fall short of that, I get on myself and everything
like that. That’s thanks to my Army training. You’re expected to be able to perform at this high
level and if you’re not there, your leaders get on your ass about it. Also, I think it’s just being in
the military and I think I’ve also always had an inquisitive mindset and having worked with
people from every different kind of background–– being over in Afghanistan kind of late in the
war when people are kind of asking questions about its validity and everything like that. Or,
being in the Army, getting these orders that I didn’t understand and working with leaders that
would give me jobs and telling me to go tell these Privates to do these jobs, at the time it seems
like they’re unfair or they don’t make sense, and that kind of helped me get into the mindset
where I am able to stepback and kind of look at the whole picture and trying way different sides
of the argument and try and put myself in the mindset of leaders [and] put myself in the mindset
of the Privates and everything like that. So, I mean, I think that’s helped me, especially being a
historian, where you have to kind of put yourself in different positions and different motives and
stuff like that. I mean, and the Army just gives you–– it teaches you to think in a different way
whereas a lot of the times, just working with Privates that are fresh out of high school and
everything, there’s just kind of this thing where the answer is just not there, civilians tend to not
know exactly where to look–– or it’s like you look one other place, then you just kind of give up.
(1:28:21). An example, we’re tasked with doing some layouts. We get all of our stuff out at the
convex we’re at and we have done and we put it back in. The Privates go to shut the door, and
the door doesn’t latch or whatever and they just keep on going back and forth with the lever. And
it never occurs to them to look around and [see] how to troubleshoot the situation and everything
like that. Where they’re like, “Specialist Grace, the door’s broken.” And I have to go up there
and instead of trying to force it or whatever, you just have to take a step back and I’m teaching
them to take a step back and look around at all the different kinds of parts of that situation where
�you had to diagnose the problem. And I just look up and the top of the way it latches, they have
these hooks that go in and kind of secure themselves, and I’m like, “The hooks aren’t lined up”
or something like that. It’s just–– civilians, in my experience, don’t know how to take that step
back and look and think. Like anytime you’re in the military, you should know that chances are
when you’re out on patrol, your radio is going to go down for some God knows reason because
that’s how radios work. And initially, when you first get in, the radio doesn’t work. It’s like,
“Okay. Is it plugged in?” “It’s plugged in.” “Is it on the right channel?” “It’s on the right
channel.” “Why isn’t it working?” And then you just stop right there, whereas when you get
more experience you learn to take a step back like, “It’s plugged in. It’s on the right channel.
Okay. Is the dagger working?” No not the dagger–– is the time right in it? (1:30:18). The way
encryption works–– the way the radios work–– you put in the encryption or whatever and all the
radios are synchronized with a different time and the way the encryptions works is, the radios are
bouncing around different frequencies all at the same time. So, you put a time into all of the
radios and then everyone’s radios are in sync, so then when your radio’s frequency bounces up to
this different frequency, it’s going to be on the same frequency as someone else's radio which is
bouncing up at the same time. Whereas if you’re not in and don’t have that encryption and
you’re not on that right time, you’re not going to be bouncing around at the same frequencies at
the same time. And also, at the same time, it’s like, you take your step back to correctly input it,
and ask “Is the encryption filled? Is that input?” Perhaps the cable is frayed that the rack is in.
The connection where the actual radios go in and connect, perhaps the little metal things that
insert into the back of the radio mount–– maybe one of those is busted. Maybe the antenna is not
working. I mean there’s just so many different things that as you’ve been in for a while, you’re
able to take a step back and look at the situation and kind of look at each individual part of the
process, whereas a lot of the time, I think civilians are just kind of one and done. If it doesn’t
work, it doesn’t work and instead of trying to figure it out, they just go and immediately ask for
help. So that’s how like in the civilian world and academia, being able to step back and look at a
problem from different angles and everything like that. And as a historian, kind of look at, once
again, being able to look at different points of view and see what’s wrong and why it’s wrong.
Interviewer: “Matt, thanks for coming in and sharing your story with us.” (1:32:23).
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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GraceM1924V2
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Grace, Matthew
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2016-02
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Grace, Matthew (Interview transcript and video, part 2), 2016
Description
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After leaving his first unit after his first deployment in the Fall of 2010, Matthew Grace moved to Fort Carson, Colorado where he was assigned to the 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade, 4th Infantry Division. At this point, Grace was a Specialist and was quickly back to his normal routine by January of 2011. As a Specialist, Grace took an interest in helping to train his unit’s new group of Privates, specifically through PT and weaponry. Grace found out that he was leaving for his second deployment in the Summer of 2011 and left for Afghanistan in April of 2012. Grace left later than the rest of his unit to go to dog handling training, but eventually flunked out and returned to his unit in Afghanistan. Once in Afghanistan, Grace’s platoon had the job of specifically ensuring the safety of their Battalion Commander and getting him to wherever he needed to go. This was his platoon’s main task throughout the entire deployment. Grace’s tour was over at the end of November/the beginning of December of 2012. Upon finishing his deployment, Grace returned home to the States and took his block-leave, returning back to work for the remainder of his time with the Army. Grace’s ETS date was January 26, 2014. Grace encountered minimal amounts of reintegration training once resuming life as a civilian. One thing Grace was required to do, was to create a plan for life after reentering society. Grace applied to a couple universities and eventually ended up attending Grand Valley State University where he studied history to eventually get his PhD and become a professor. As a whole, Grace believes that his time in the Army plays a big role in his life and states that he would not be as successful as he is without it.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Afghan War, 2001-2021—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5c7828ce1a696523b713626acf4aa68.mp4
877a6b6629c0e156dfd2c618ef05dec8
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1475082bd5486544da6201a6aa2cc56a.pdf
a4485d905b910331c5512cae3c667e93
PDF Text
Text
Grace, Matthew
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Afghanistan War
Interviewee’s Name: Matthew Grace
Length of Interview: (2:03:26)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Matt Grace of Muskegon, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Matt, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and
when were you born?”
[I] was born in Muskegon, Michigan, November 5, 1988.
Interviewer: “Did you grow up in Muskegon?”
Yeah. [I] spent my entire life there. Went to Mona Shores High School and graduated in ‘07.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living when you were growing up?”
Well, both of my parents were originally doctors–– met in med school. Till I was about four,
they both worked and then around four or five, when my brother came about, my mom kind of
quit and stayed home with the kids. Dad’s still working.
Interviewer: “Now, let’s see. You were born in ‘88–– 2001, September 11–– you weren’t
quite 13. What do you remember about 9/11?”
I was in sixth or seventh grade–– I wanna say seventh grade, but I might be wrong with that. I
don’t remember exactly, like, when I heard the Trade Centers went down. I remember when the
Pentagon was hit. At that point in time, I didn’t know what the Trade Centers were. I probably
heard about it, [but] it didn’t register any kind of significance.
Interviewer: “Did they do anything at your school or you just kept on with the rest of your
day?”
�I think we kept on with the rest of our day. I remember being in, like, band class or whatever and
hearing that the Pentagon was hit. I was a little stupid asshole–– excuse me–– but I’m like, “Oh
yeah. Down with the government.” or some stupid stuff.
Interviewer: “Well, you get to do that when you’re twelve.”
Yeah. And of course I didn’t know the significance. Then, of course, later on in the day when I
get home, I turn on the TV and it’s all that everyone is watching and everything like that. (2:14).
Interviewer: “Now, after that happens, did you pay much attention to the news after that?
Or, ignore it for a while?”
Yeah. I always was a pretty–– I guess–– informed kid, as much as a middle schooler/high
schooler could be, I guess. I think it had to do with all of my friends being of the exact opposite
political background as me, so any time any discussion of politics came up, I would have to be
really informed to counter their arguments and stuff. I would go on to like Fox News, or
wherever, and read articles that piqued my fancy–– which usually the military wants, so I kind of
kept up with the war in general and everything.
Interviewer: “And then, at what point did you start thinking about going into the service
yourself?”
Oh, that was always the plan or whatever. I mean, I can’t even tell you–– my earliest memories
are like in the backyard with my next door neighbor playing “war” or whatever. Like, it’s not
unusual for a kid to own a G.I. Joe–– [it] might be unusual for a kid to have a G.I. Joe of General
Patton or whatever. So, that was me. It was always the plan–– I didn’t know exactly what branch
I would want to go into or exactly if I was going to go to college first, or what I was going to do,
but that was always a part of the plan. Like I said, one of my earliest memories is with my
neighbor–– an older couple that would watch me–– and they would show me Gary Cooper or
Cary Grant in old Alvin York films. I remember watching that and my grandfather also showed
me Midway with Charlton Heston and Battle of the Bulge movie, all of that. I couldn’t get
enough of that. I read books and everything. It was just a constant fascination. It was like go to
college and join the Army, or vice versa. (4:44).
Interviewer: “So when did you finish high school?”
I guess that would be May of 2007.
Interviewer: “And then how quickly did you enlist after that, or had you already?”
�I enlisted right after that. I had talked to recruiters the previous November or whatever and I kept
in touch. [I] enlisted in August and like a week/week-and-a-half later I shipped out to Benning.
Interviewer: “Fort Benning, Georgia for basic training?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Which branch did you choose and why?”
Not exactly a logical choice, but I knew I always wanted to fight and everything like that, so it
kind of narrows it down to Marine Corps or Army. And I think I just kind of decided on it
because Band of Brothers recently came out and I watched all that, so it was like, “I wanna go
airborne” and everything like that. So, that was it. And I also watched Blackhawk Down and I
was like, “I’ll go Army Rangers” or something. Of course, I don’t know how ignorant that was.
(6:01).
Interviewer: “So, it wasn’t so much what the recruiters had to say or what kind of things
they were offering you, it was more of the idea in your own head––”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “–– of how you saw yourself. Okay, so you enlist in the Army, they pack you off
to Fort Benning, Georgia. What kind of reception do you get when you arrive?”
Well, when you first arrive–– [it’s] late at night. Spent a week in this place called 30th AG–– I
believe it’s kind of the reception there where you get to spend a week going through, getting
some shots, doing all kinds of paperwork. They keep you up for the first 24-36 hours and mainly
you’re just sitting in one room, doing absolutely nothing. But, at that point in time, you’re not
actually in with the drill sergeants–– they’re just kind of soldiers that are pushing you through.
They’re jerks and everything like that because you’re day one–– not even a day one Private yet.
But, I mean, they’re not yelling in your face or anything, at that point in time. You go through
the mess hall and everything and it’s a normal Army depot–– it’s not the basic training food. I
was thinking, “Okay, so far this isn’t too bad. I can handle this.” Then, after that week, right
before they pick us up, they come by and they say, “We call your name, file out to the right. You
are going to be eleven charlies. Mortar men.” I’m like, “I don’t want to be a mortar man. I signed
up to be infantry.” They’re like, “Yeah, you’re infantry but you’re also a mortar man.” I’m like,
“Don’t call my name. Don’t call my name.” He’s like, my name–– or my serial number,
whatever it was. I don’t remember exactly what it was, but I was called. They filed us up and I
didn’t really know too much about what it was to be a mortar man, but everyone in that group
was sent off and they were all mortar men, and that is what our basic training class was.
�Interviewer: “To back up a little bit, at what point did you do testing for aptitude and that
sort? Was that before you got there or after you got there?”
Are you talking about the ASVAB?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
I think shortly after I first talked to the recruiter in the November past. I wanna say it was a
month or two. It was shortly after that I took it. (8:24).
Interviewer: “So, was there any additional testing after you got to Fort Benning or just
other kinds of paperwork?”
Just paperwork. Not aptitude or anything like that.
Interviewer: “Then, your preference had been infantry anyway, so it wasn’t like you were
shopping for a particular school.”
No. I wanted to like–– I still had that fantasized image in my mind where it was like I wanted to
go airborne, I wanted to do Ranger. Kind of like lots of young, naive people think–– they’re like,
“Everyone can do that,” or “ I’m special, I can do that.” And, I mean, when I first signed up, I
went in as an 11X, which is like they can put you as an 11 Bravo or an 11 Charlie–– infantry [or]
infantry warman. I asked my recruiter, “What’s 11X? I thought I wanted to do 11 Bravo.” He’s
like–– I think this is the one lie he told me–– he’s like, “That just means they can, later on, go to
Special Forces or airborne” or something like that. I’m like, “Oh, okay.”
Interviewer: “So, you’ve been assigned, you join your company. Now, what’s the actual
training like?”
Well, all basic training is, it’s like they say–– the bare basics. When you actually, finally, first get
to your unit you don’t know jack-shit or whatever, and it’s pretty much up to the guys there––
the Specialists, the level NCOs–– to teach you up on that. Basic training is just of the bare, basic
familiarizations. It’s more, mainly, just to instill that discipline in you that makes it so you can
function when you eventually get to your unit. (10:12).
Interviewer: “How did they go about instilling discipline?”
Well, just constantly yelling at you, smoking you–– physical punishment, push-ups or whatever
exercises they can instill in you. I think one of the main things, looking back, is one of the things
the movies get wrong–– I mean, I love Full Metal Jacket. It’s right there. It’s a lot like that kind
�of experience except the drill sergeants aren’t beating us. But, one thing they get wrong is at the
start they show a Private mess up [and] it’s like, “Drop and give me 50,” or “100.” No one ever
told me to drop and give any number or anything like that. No one ever told me–– well, maybe
one-on-one, if it was just me and a drill sergeant–– 90 percent of the time it’s everyone drops and
you’re going to do push-ups until [they] get bored–– or alternate exercises just to continue to
mess with you. I remember one time, the drill sergeant told us to drop for a reason and stay in a
push-up position and he kind of walked out. He comes back three hours later and he sees us in
the barracks [like], “What the fuck did you guys do?” I’m like, “Drill sergeant, you told us to do
push-ups.” He was like, “That was three hours ago. I went to Taco Bell. Get up.” That’s kind of
the constant thing–– a small fraction. It’s all kind of a game. I thought your job is to make sure
you don’t do anything wrong and it’s the drill sergeant’s job to find what’s wrong. Well, the
problem is, you don’t know all of the rules of the game yet. They do. So, that’s pretty much the
gist of it. (12:16).
Interviewer: “And then what sort of physical training do they do at that point?”
I mean, you wake up in the morning and for the first three weeks–– during the red phase–– it was
4:30a.m. or 5:30a.m. or something like that. Do like an hour-and-half of PT or something. It
varied. Sometimes you’d go on a run or they’d have you do some kind of circuit training where
you’d run 100 meters with someone on your back. Then, there would be like some monkey bars,
you’d do that. Then you’d have to carry this water jug somewhere–– I don’t know. It was all
kinds of things, I mean. Apparently they’ve–– kind of–– “wussied” up the training from what I
hear nowadays where they have this PRT crap that–– I don’t know. But, back then, it was just
whatever they could think of. Then, the rest of the day you’d go off and you’d do whatever
actual “learning” that you were doing, whether it would be on a weapons system or medical care
or land-navigation, or whatever. Then, of course, throughout this whole time the drill sergeants
are still buzzing around, trying to look for anything that is wrong. And they’re smoking you
throughout the day and stuff like that.
Interviewer: “How well did you hold up through this–– mentally and physically?”
I think very well actually. Not to say that it wasn’t stressful, it was one of the hardest experiences
of my life and everything like that. But, I mean, looking at some other guys trying to go AWOL
or cried or something like that. I mean, it was stressful but I never got to that point. And
physically, I went in and I was kind of on the more pudgy side. I wasn’t obese or anything like
that, but I was definitely kind of husky, or something like that. I don’t know. So, I was towards
the bottom third of my class, but before I went in I talked to a veteran and he told me [that] you
get out what you put in. So, I kind of took that to heart. I mean, instead of like–– as you go along
you learn ways to slack off–– to a degree. It’s kind of required because you can’t do push-ups for
three hours straight. You have to find ways [like] when the drill sergeant isn’t looking, you go
�down on your belly. But, I tried my best and did it as long as I possibly could. So, I started off at
a low point, but at the end of basic my platoon out of 53 or like 56 people–– it varied when
people went AWOL or went to a different platoon–– by that time we were done, I was like third
or fourth on the PT scale in my platoon. I think I graduated with a 296 PT score out of 300––
though, there are certain ways you can go above 300, but there were only three or four people
that got a better score than me. So, I did very well in that aspect. (15:33).
Interviewer: “And did you understand why they were doing the things they were doing,
especially with messing with your head and just trying to get you to automatically follow
orders? They talked about breaking down and building back up. I mean, did you have any
sense that that’s what they were doing, or were you just trying to survive?”
I think it’s more, at that point, you’re just trying to survive. I wasn’t standing there going, “Why
are they doing this to me?” But, I wasn’t trying to philosophically get inside their heads at that
point in time and dissect their motives. It was just I gotta do this, this way, or we’re all gonna
pay for it.
Interviewer: “And that whole business with making the whole unit responsible is a way of
enforcing discipline without them directly doing it. If there’s some guy who screws up all of
the time, was the idea that the rest of you would make him clean up his act?”
Not necessarily that, I think it’s more of a guilt-trip than anything else because it was never––
yeah, it was just a guilt trip at that point in time. I mean, there were points in time where it did
fall on everyone. For example, we had this one kid that right off the bat said, “I don’t wanna be
here. I’m going to go AWOL.” He tried to go AWOL–– twice. And after that, we had to have
like six people around him at any given time–– like no more than three feet away. The problem
with that is, when it comes to nighttime, you have fireguard. You have two guys on fireguard,
and then you might have two guys on CQ, and then you might have another two guys on staff
duty. And you kind of have to rotate those people in-and-out every hour–– the guard. The more
people you have out there, the more people you have losing their sleep and so, to have six extra
people out there, it falls on this kid. At this point in time, he’s refusing to train and everything
like that, but they’re not sending him home yet. Unfortunately, his bunk was right next to mine
so I would go to sleep and there were people with chairs sitting around him. I mean, he’d like cry
at night and like they would–– I mean, people were pissed at this kid, understandably, I think.
But, they’d whisper to him the whole night, “You piece of shit” and everything–– and like spit
on him or something like that. No one ever beat him or anything like that. There was only one
time where they actually came to blows. (18:15). There was this one kid, apparently he was
causing trouble in another platoon, and my drill sergeant–– I don’t know if it’s because he’s
senior or had a Special Forces tab or what–– but they’re like, “We’ll send him to this platoon.
Maybe they’ll shape him up.” Well, he was literally there for a day. At some point in time, he
�decided, “I’m not doing this. This is bullshit” or whatever. He thought he was some kind of
gangster and hard kind of guy. [He’s] like, “I’ve seen some stuff.” My drill sergeant was like,
“Shut up.” But, during that day he said, “I’m not training anymore. I’m done with this.” My drill
sergeant was like, “Fine. Whatever.” And we’re going through chow and he’s in the line and the
drill sergeant is like, “Oh no. You go to the back of the line. These guys have been training all
day. You don’t get your food until everyone else has.” And he’s like, “Screw you” and throws
his tray down at the drill sergeants feet and by the time we get back to the barracks, everyone is
towing the line around the bay area of our barracks room and the drill sergeant is yelling like,
“You’re going to watch this motherfucker get his stuff. He’s gonna walk out of here and never be
seen again” or something like that. And he starts walking towards the back door of the barracks–
– we’re not really allowed to go out the front, that’s where the drill sergeants come in–– and he’s
like, “Yeah. You better use that back door” for some reason. As soon as he says that, the kid
stops and turns around and tries to go out the front door. And our drill sergeant is like, “Second
Platoon, are you going to let this guy walk out the front door of your barracks?” And we are like,
“What does he want us to do?” Because the drill sergeants were very insistent from the start, like
“You guys better not fight on my watch. I don’t want to deal with that paperwork. You better not
go AWOL on my watch. I don’t want to deal with that paperwork.” So, they always told us not
to fuck with each other because they didn’t want to do the paperwork and get in trouble. But the
drill sergeant–– this kid keeps walking–– [like], “Second Platoon, are you going to let him walk
out?” So we all start moseying into the kill zone–– the center of our bay–– and we’re like,
“Come on man, go back out the back door.” And I actually stepped in front of him and I’m like,
“Hey man, go that way.” (20:40). And as soon as I say that, he begins to raise his fist and as soon
as that happens, ten guys just jump him. It’s like this giant pig pile in the center of the room.
Eventually, the drill sergeant comes in and starts pulling people off and he gets him in this weird
leg-lock thing and starts applying a little bit of pressure and the guy is just screaming, “Drill
Sergeant. You’re going to break my leg.” He’s like, “You wanna fuck with me and everything
like that? You wanna disrespect all of us here?” He’s like, “Drill sergeant, let me go.” He’s like,
“Just say you’re a bitch” or whatever and he’s like, “I’m a bitch drill sergeant.” This guy who’s
acting all hard. Eventually, they let him go and he was gone the next day. (21:37).
Interviewer: “The other fella who didn’t want to be there–– did they eventually move him
out of the unit?”
Not while I was there. He was there throughout the whole time.
Interviewer: “So, that’s an adventure so far. Now, how long did basic training last?”
I believe day one or zero was August 30th–– I remember that because I was disappointed it
wasn’t September 1st because I thought it would be kind of cool that the anniversary of when
�World War II started [unintelligible]. And then we graduated on–– but I was satisfied because I
got to graduate on December 7th. So, three months, give or take a little bit.
Interviewer: “What did they do with you after that?”
After that we got to go home for hometown recruiting and Christmas exodus, so it was like three
weeks off where we got to go work for the recruiter for a week or two–– because we were doing
that it wouldn’t count against our leave [or] when we could be home or anything like that. At that
point in time, we’d just show up and the recruiter would be like, “Go hand out these flyers. See if
you can put up these flyers” in local businesses or wherever. We’d knock that out in an hour and
we’d just blow it off for the rest of the day. It was recruiters, I mean. They understood. They
were like, “We don’t really care that much about these guys. Just let them do their thing.” Then
after that, I think it was the first week of January I had to report to my first unit. (23:19).
Interviewer: “And where was that based?”
Fort Lewis, Washington.
Interviewer: “And what unit were you joining?”
A Squadron, 1st Cavalry Regiment, 5th Brigade, 2nd ID.
Interviewer: “So that's Second Infantry Division?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “The acronyms, we wanna make sure people are following. The person who is
writing the outline for you.”
Yeah. Alpha Troop and that whole mix of acronyms and stuff.
Interviewer: “So, you’re with the unit. Now, the Cavalry units had certainly changed a lot
over time in terms of how they’re equipped and what their missions are. At times, they’re
more like an Armored Division, sometimes like Infantry. Other times, they’ve been
airborne. How was the division set up? Or, were you just in a regular line Infantry unit––
or did they have special equipment or jobs?”
Washington is a Stryker base, so we were Stryker vehicles. At this point in time, Cav Scouts,
they’re just doing–– I would never tell them, they’re just doing the Infantry’s job. They would
deny it vehemently because there’s this kind of rivalry, but, in a sense, they’re doing that same
�thing. I won’t say that they’re as good as Infantry and everything like that, which I don’t think
they’re as disciplined enough. But, they’re pretty much doing that thing. And then they do
practice–– like the Strykers, they do have some big, old optical thing that they have mounted on
top that can do their scouting and zoom in like a million times, or something like that. But, for
the most part, they’re just doing, kind of, Infantry stuff. However, [it’s] just that their units are
smaller and organized a little different. (25:06).
Interviewer: “And then the Stryker vehicles themselves, describe those. What are you using
them for?”
Like, an actual, physical description of them?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
Oh. I guess, if you want to picture it, it’s a giant, green brick with six/eight wheels or something
like that. Then, the very front is sloped. Then the back drops down which let’s everyone go in
and out. The Infantry model and the Scout model are pretty much, almost the exact same. I think
there’s some slight differences. Then there’s like one with an actual 105 cannon mounted on top,
and I think there are a couple other ones. But I–– being a mortarman–– we had the mortar
variant. I forget the acronym for it, but you have an actual mortar mounted in the back of that.
And at the top of it, it springs open–– it pushes open–– and it goes pretty much like this and the
cannon raises out of the back and it’s on a turntable and you can rotate it all the way around. I
believe the acronym for the actual cannon is RMS6-L. It’s a 120 millimeter mortar system and it
can reach out and touch 6,700 meters, which is slightly less than the ground mounted system.
You don’t get quite as much bang for your buck because it has a recoil system on it.
Interviewer: “Well, 120 is still a good sized mortar and it can shoot a couple of miles.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So, that’s a really substantial weapon in and of itself. So, you get to Fort
Lewis. At this point, was the unit preparing to go anyplace or had they been anywhere? Or
were you just all in the base?”
When I arrived, the 5th Brigade had just been stood up. I don’t know how long, but maybe a year
or so ago. It is still pretty new. Like the deployment is not on the horizon at this point in time. I
mean, we know we’re going somewhere eventually. That’s the reality of the Army–– everyone
knows that you’re going to go somewhere. I think we eventually got word that we were going to
Iraq and each platoon had to send off one guy to Arabic school, and you just kind of disappeared
from the platoon completely for the next year. (27:54). We didn’t actually learn that we were
�going to Afghanistan until we reached the National Training Center–– NTC. Like every combat
brigade, before they deploy, they have to go to JRTC which is in Louisiana–– Fort Polk–– or
NTC which is in Fort Irwin in California–– whatever geography they use [to] break it down.
Pretty much, you just go to this place for a month and you run through some training and then
you get done and they’re like, “You’re certified. You can go deploy.” Well, we thought we were
going to Iraq this whole time, we finally got there and they’re like, “Oh no, you’re going to
Afghanistan.” So, what you’ve been training for is not quite right. And like, “Oh yeah. That guy
we took away from your platoon, who now knows Arabic, he can’t use that in Afghanistan. They
speak Pashto.”
Interviewer: “How long did you spend at Fort Lewis?”
So, I got there–– I guess that would’ve been–– January of ‘08 and we finally deployed in July of
‘09. Then, we spent a year there, came back in July of the following year, and I left in October.
(29:22).
Interviewer: “How did you spend your time when you were based at Fort Lewis?”
Well, my first year there–– at one point in time–– calculated it out and figured out that my first
year in, we spent five months out of that year in the field. I don’t remember if NTC was a part of
that equation or not, but that might’ve came to mind the following year. But, yeah. I couldn’t
believe it. I calculated it out with all these trips up to the Yakima Training Center, which is like
three hours by car, five hours by Stryker–– up in Washington. And it’s just wide open desert.
Units from Fort Lewis will often go to train. It has a lot more room, whereas Fort Lewis is a lot
more congested. Sometimes we’d just go out for a weekend on Fort Lewis for a border shoot or
whatever, like that. But then we’d have troop, squadron, brigade level exercises, in which case
we’d go out to Yakima for a week, two weeks at a time. Eventually, that adds up. That first year,
I think, was the most I’d ever spent in the field at one point in time. I think it’s probably safe to
say, on average, you’re looking at a minimum of two months out of the year doing some kind of
field problem. Then if you have NCT or JRTC that’s another month on top of that. Of course, it
varies between units and you can spend a lot more time. But, we’d go out there. Our First
Sergeant had some weird grudge against [unintelligible] mortars or whatever. So, a lot of the
time we’d get some of the shittier, heavier details and stuff like that. Most of the guys in the unit
had been to Iraq and they really hadn’t used mortars to the extent that the guys that had been to
Afghanistan had. Like my platoon’s Sergeant, he had been an Afghan vet so he was there. They
shot a ton and everything like that. He was like, “These guys don’t know how to use us.” I don’t
know. There was some kind of resentment there. (31:56).
Interviewer: “How did they treat new people coming into the unit?”
�It varies between platoon and platoon. My first platoon, it was great and everything like that. I
didn’t have any problems with anyone–– maybe one of my sergeants. I think it was like a group
of 12 or 15 guys. More platoon–– at least in the Cav world–– are a lot smaller. So, I mean, there
was a little bit of hazing–– made me do push-ups for no reason or something like that. But, at the
same time, there was my platoon sergeant, who, when he first got to the units–– like everyone
else, slightly before us–– he came in and was only a Specialist at the time. And, in order to, like,
fill out the whole–– they needed more NCOs in our little tiny platoon. So, they gave him
Corporal and they tried to fast track him to E5, then E6 and everything like that–– so there’s that.
(33:05). Everyone else is just Privates who got to the unit two/three months before me. And I
think there was one other Specialist. There wasn’t like a ton of people to haze you. And our
platoon sergeant really took on a father-figure persona and since all the other Cavs treated us
shitty, there was a lot more camaraderie in our little crew–– who I remember trying to look out
for each other. I think I was naturally a nice, young, naive guy, not hardened and resentful like I
am now after everything. So, I got along with everyone and our platoon Sergeant was very much
into platoon activities. We would go bowling together and stuff, like watch UFC fights. So, there
wasn’t really anyone there to mess with me that much. (34:10).
Interviewer: “You don’t really have a big divide between the experienced guys and the new
guys because so many people were new.”
Exactly.
Interviewer: “Also, you’re talking here about Scouts versus mortars. Now, was the company
a Scout company or the whole battalion? What does it actually mean to be a Cavalry
Scout?”
Well, I mean the brigade–– it seems the way that most brigades are organized, you have two or
three infantry battalions in a brigade. Then, you’ll have a fuel artillery–– a battery is a company
for them.
Interviewer: “So a battalion would be standard.”
Yeah. You would have like a few battalions of infantry, a battalion of artillery, and then you’d
have a support battalion, and then a Scout squadron which is roughly the size of a battalion–– a
little bit smaller. And then that breaks down into troops–– platoons–– so pretty much, we worked
with me being part of a Cav squadron, we’re just infantry in the whole Cav world. Like, 11Charlie’s are always like the red-headed step-child of the Army because you’re in an infantry
battalion. Your company is broken down into three platoons of regular 11-Bravo’s and then
you’re going to have one platoon of 11-Charlie. They are always just that “add on.” It’s the same
thing in the Cav world, except you’re one more step removed because you’re infantry and you’re
�not Cav. I mean, you don’t even have that kind of thing. So, yeah. You kind of have a little bit of
rivalry and disconnect from them. I mean, not to say that it’s some complete animosity where
you’re butting heads all the time, but, you know, friendly kind of rivalries. You do, kind of, get
to know and make friends outside of your platoon. (36:16).
Interviewer: “Now, when you were on the base–– so the time you’re not in the field, you’re
on the base at Fort Lewis–– are there other kinds of exercises or routine jobs you have?
What happens there?”
I mean, you have your daily things. You start your day, you do PT and everything for an
hour/hour-and-a-half. I think when I first got there it was 6:30 to 7:30 and then they extended it
to 8:00. Then, depending on what’s going on–– if you’re just coming back from the field, you’re
just cleaning weapons all day. If it’s Monday, you’re going down to the motor pool and doing
maintenance on your Strykers and everything like that. And then that can extend into other days
of the week too, depending on if something needs to be done or whatever is going on. Or, some
days you might be doing inventory. It all depends on what needs to be done right now. I
wouldn’t say there’s a routine, but certain things you can expect to do. You’re going to be doing
lots of layouts and inventory. You’re going to be spending lots of time in the motor pool cleaning
weapons. Then, at the end of every day you have a certain area to clean. And that was kind of
your day. And then, throughout that process–– I mean, some days you spend the entire time
down in the motor pool or you spend the entire day doing inventory, but then a lot of the times
you would do an hour or so of that, or maybe none at all that day. In which case, your leadership
will try and teach you something whether it be land navigation, or have a class on doing the
radio, or set up a glass house where you take some–– they call it engineer tape–– which is kind
of a cloth and you make an outline of a room and you practice clearing rooms and everything
like that. Sometimes we’d go down to the motor pool and we would throw up the back of our
Stryker and practice manual gunning where, instead of using the digital system, you slap on an
actual, legit mortar site and you actually try–– and were able to, depending on the position of the
Stryker–– line up and actually run out poles, which with the mortar you’re supposed to adjust off
of when you’re aiming and everything like that. But, most of the time, Strykers aren’t in the
position so you’re trying to adjust off of the metal fences in the distance or stuff like that. So, the
leaders just find different classes you can teach and everything like that. (39:15).
Interviewer: “Okay, they keep you busy. Now, do you get time to go off base?”
Well, yeah. It’s one of the things that people don’t really understand about soldiers. Like, every
time I would come home my family was like, “So do you ever get any time to go do things on
your own?” I’m like, “Yeah.” We’d get done with work at five o’clock or whatever it would be,
and you’d be free. Unless you had CQ or staff duty or you have some kind of extra detail–– or
you’re out in the field, of course–– but most of the time, as soon as you get off work, you’re “off
�work.” You can have a car, you can go to town [and] do whatever you want, go to the bar. At
that point in time, I really kept myself on base. I was a shy guy and I didn’t drink at that point in
time. So, but yeah. You can go and do whatever you want.
Interviewer: “So, you’re there for over a year basically and eventually, you are kind of
gearing up with the idea that sooner or later you are going to go to Iraq. And then they
send you off to the training center. Which one did you go to?”
[I] went to the National Training Center which is in Fort Irwin. I forgot what JRTC stands for––
Joint Training Center or something like that which is in Fort Polk. I went there after my second
unit. (40:45).
Interviewer: “What do they do in that month of preparation?”
I think for the first week you get down there and you're spending most of the time trying to
unpack all your gear that you originally had to load up onto conexes and put on trains and stuff
like that–– along with your Strykers. Which, that’s one thing that is different from NTC to
JRTC–– which I think might be one of the reasons we went there actually. Now that I think
about it, NTC, Fort Irwin out in the middle of the desert in California. JRTC you’re kind of in the
middle of swamps, so you can’t really have Strykers rolling around. So, you had to unload that
pretty much for the first week. You have to draw a “mod” of equipment which is kind of the
“laser-tag” crap that you put all your weapons and vehicles and everything that never works. But,
you put all of that on, you go out into “the Box” for two weeks in which case, each unit,
depending on what your job is, you might have a battalion occupying this area and a troop
occupying a FOB here. They have the unit that actually is stationed at Fort Irwin designated as
the OPFOR–– the opposing force–– in which case they run around and they attack you and
everything like that. So, just that kind of training. (42:18). For most of my time there they just
kind of disregarded all the 11-Charlie’s and everything. We pretty much sat there, pulling guard
in the middle of nowhere. But, I think that it might also be a reflection on NTC. I hear the
experiences that people get there–– people I have talked to–– they’re usually a lot worse. A lot
less useful than the JRTC in Fort Polk. There’s a lot more sitting around and doing nothing and
everything like that. I don’t know. I personally think the whole thing is a waste of money. The
Army could probably organize it better, or just have some other unit out in Fort Lewis play
opposing force for a couple of weeks or something like that. Yeah, it was kind of pointless. I
think I heard that it cost 25 million to send our brigade down there–– or 50 million, or something
like that. Which, I mean, could be completely hearsay and everything like that. I heard just
because they have to have extra engines lying around in case our Strykers breakdown and stuff
like that. And then we did have one day–– a couple days–– where we did mortar shoot. I think
my platoon, if I remember correctly, went down a week before everyone else because we were
supposed to take this class about how to search houses and everything like that–– which is
�actually kind of fun. You go into a house and as soon as you get an inkling that they’re hiding
something, you throw everything and just take their drawers and chuck them everywhere. It was
actually pretty cool because they had actual Middle Eastern actors there and they had a mock-up
village that was pretty decently realistic and everything like that. It was a nice little fun game
trying to find their hiding holes. I ended up falling into a hole in one of the houses–– twice. Same
hole, same house, same time. (44:27).
Interviewer: “Aside from that, was there anything else that was cleared geared for
Afghanistan?”
Our whole training was kind of focused on the idea that we’re going to the Middle East and
focusing [on] we’re going to be finding an insurgent guerilla force who is going to be using
ambush and IED tactics. So, I mean, there are big differences between the two countries, but at
the same time, the tactics are kind of the same. If I was an actual higher-up and looking at the
thing, I would not take that approach of like, “Oh, they’re the same thing.” But, I mean, it’s the
same legit training and everything like that. I don’t know exactly what they could’ve done
differently that much–– at least on my level as a lowly Private. Eventually, one of my last days at
NTC I got promoted to Specialist, but besides that I don’t know what more they could’ve done.
Interviewer: “Now, after this though, how do they get you out to Afghanistan?”
Well, we come back and we have a couple weeks of block leave beforehand–– a couple of
months beforehand. You start packing everything up, put them on the railroad cars, you send
them off. They ship all the Strykers over on boat. I believe they originally shipped them from the
States to Diego Garcia, and we actually had to have some guys volunteer to go out to Diego
Garcia and Afghanistan–– the AVANT Force to help unload the Strykers at Diego Garcia. Put
them on planes, get them to Afghanistan, and unload them. So, send all that out beforehand
(46:45).. We started doing some processing like paperwork, medical screenings, and testing your
hearing beforehand. You get your smallpox, anthrax vaccinations. I remember the hearing thing
because later on my hearing got destroyed by that. So, I think they established a baseline of
where you are generally, so when you come back they can see if there’s something different–– I
think that’s the logic behind that. You fill out your will and everything like that. Just basic
paperwork stuff. Then, they start sending out flights of guys at a time. I think usually they have
seven different sorties going out–– seven different parties. I shipped out July 20th and finally
landed at Manas, an Air Force base in Kyrgyzstan. We sit there and you wait to get a flight to go
to Afghanistan. (48:05). Then we were there for about a week, or something like that. In which
case, you get there–– I remember when we first got there, I remember it being really hot there.
So, we would try spending the most part of our day–– the hot part of our day–– trying to sleep
and then we’d be awake during the night when it was cooler out. Plus, we had that jet lag going
on. So, we’d spend about a week there admiring the wonderful Air Force defect with it’s
�amazing–– just looking at all the Air Force women who are just amazing compared to the Army
women. I’m just speaking the truth, okay. And then, I think it was the 28th or the 30th when we
finally touched down in Afghanistan in Kandahar Airfield. I remember when I first touched
down there and I got there and I stepped off the plane and I’m hearing all this time leading up,
“It’s hot as hell in Afghanistan” and everything. I get off the plane and I’m like, it’s kind of
warm out here, but it’s not too bad. My buddy is like, “Dude. It’s 8:30 in the morning.” I’m like,
“Oh my god.” And it just got warmer and hotter from there. To the point where what stuck out at
me was you’d exit our giant circus tent, where it has our entire troop or something in–– a couple
of troops, actually. And you would walk out and you could immediately feel the moisture on
your eyes just start evaporating and everything like that. It was just hell. July and August in
Kandahar is not fun. (50:06).
Interviewer: “Did they move you off to a base or did you operate out of Kandahar, or what
happened?”
At first, I don’t think they knew where the hell they were going to put us when we first got there
and everything like that. The first few weeks, trying to unpack things, long-hours and hot days,
really crappy and everything like that. All of our AC units in our Strykers, since we were in
Washington it never got used so when we got to Afghanistan, they didn’t work. So, we had to get
those fixed. And then, at some point in time, they decide to send my troop out to help out one of
our sister battalions from the brigade who is out in Arghandab River Valley at this FOB called
[sounds like “fraughtnack”] They had apparently been catching crazy shit out there. I think they
hold the record for the battalion with the most casualties or something like that. They went in
there and did some–– they went in there with the wrong perspective and just pissed people off
and kind of made things worse, or something like that. I mean, I think it was already a pretty bad
area, but we went in there to help them with–– there was an election going on I don’t know if it
was presidential or parliamentary–– but we went to go help them. We showed up and whatever
and on our way out there we picked up some Afghan security forces and were supposed to escort
them to some election sites or whatever. And this was supposed to take like five hours or
something that turns into some giant shit-show and we’re just rolling around, doing God knows
what, and eventually, it’s the end of the day, we finally get to [Fraughtnack], and it was like
we’re going to have to stay here. So, we sleep there for a few hours and grab the Afghan Army
guys and we have to go escort them to a polling place or something like that. (52:34). I
remember he said, “We take two routes here.” I don’t remember the name but it’s something like
Happy Magical Valley Forest Trail, or something like that. Or, we could take this one other route
called Route Monkey. To which all the Afghan guys were like, “No, no, no. The Taliban is all
there. We don’t want to go down there.” We’re like, “We’re gonna go down there.” So, once
again, we were getting lost and it’s a real narrow, rocky road and everything. We’re rolling down
there with Strykers and it’s the middle of the night and we’re just switching people out of the
gunter–– who was pulling security. I think at one point in time, when we were stopped, my
�platoon sergeant actually hopped up and led our driver. We’re just trying to stay awake and
everything like that. I remember we were stopped at one point in time, this is our first mission
out, and it’s already not going too well. We’re just on this narrow road with walls on each side
and trees hanging over us like, “This is hell. I’m so tired,” and all of the sudden I’m listening to
the radio and I hear my platoon sergeant say, “IED. IED.” I’m like, “What? Are you serious? I
didn’t hear [anything].” I’m like, “Are you joking? I didn’t hear anything.” Apparently, some of
the Afghan guys, further up, they–– I don’t know if they hit an IED or someone set off an IED––
but they got blown up. They have little Toyota Highlander’s that they’re in. I think a couple of
guys died and some guys in the back lost their legs. I remember driving alongside the vehicle and
it was like, you had the engine block and then the cab is just completely gone. It’s like someone
just took that part out. Then you have the actual bed of the truck or whatever. So, it didn’t take
cheese to figure out where the guys were sitting who got blown up. Me and my buddies are
sitting in the back like, “Oh my god. This is not good. This is our first mission. There’s now way
we are getting through this deployment.” Eventually we get back to [Fraughtnack] and we
scrapped the rest of the mission of escorting these guys back. (55:07). We went back to
Kandahar. And I guess we’re going in there right at the time of the surge of Afghanistan starting
up. I guess my perspective of that unique kind of thing is–– we were only gone a few days and
we get back and our parking spaces are already filled in by connexes and shit like that. So, we
get back, we’re driving around, trying to find a place to park our vehicles–– yeah. I think we
stuck around there for another week or so and then we got called out to [Fraughtnack] to help out
our sister battalion again. We go out there and they’re planning on some big sweep of the village
area there. The whole idea is they’re going to go in there [and] we’re going to be sitting here
blocking forces and they’re going to push all of the bad guys towards us, or something like that.
Great plan, except these are guerilla fighters who can just throw down their arm and blend in
with the population. So, the whole idea that you can just push them our way–– it doesn’t
necessarily work. So, we pretty much sat on the side of this river for a week or so. Had Afghan
kids coming up to us, begging for MRE goods the whole time. And those kids are worse than
homeless people at Christmastime. You give them one thing and they will never leave you alone.
Then, after a week there, [we] moved to a different spot, and I don’t even remember what we
were doing there, but we sat there for another week. I mean, there was some fighting because at
night you hear grenade blasts going off and then you hear mortars firing–– most of those, I
believe, were just illumination rounds–– but you hear stuff going on–– firefight stuff–– at night.
We’re just bored as hell where we’re at. (57:23). At one point in time, I remember, a part of our
troop went out to some village to meet with some Afghan guys. They come back and they have
this kid with them. I remember his face was all puffed out and my platoon sergeant went over to
see what was going on, and the kid went down to the river near us and some of the soldiers were
helping him wash up. Apparently the kid was up from Kabul or something like that, and he was
going down south to go study, or something like that. Apparently this Afghan police chief
kidnapped him–– or stole him–– and was keeping him as a sex slave. Apparently, they said his
shins were busted and everything like that. When our guys went to visit them, they saw this kid,
�and they were like, “We’re taking this guy.” They were like, “No.” They’re like, “No. Fuck you.
We’re taking him.” So, he was really happy to see us. I think I heard that they gave him some
money and put him in a cab and sent him up north–– something like that. So, hopefully he got to
where he was going. So, besides that, we just sat in our one spot for a week and had some
Afghan kids throw pomegranates at me–– that’s pretty much the gist of it. Meanwhile, I don’t
remember what the battalion's acronym was, but apparently they’re getting messed up left and
right. Like, one of their Strykers hit an IED and killed everyone in the back. Seven people gone,
just like that. So, yeah. They didn’t have a good time. (59:14). We go back to [Fraughtnack] and
we stay there for another couple of days, then we go out to help them search a village. We’re
pulling overwatch–– security–– while their guys go through and search it. At one point in time,
they go through the house and apparently some dude had put artillery rounds from the original
Soviet invasion built into the foundation of his house. I didn’t see it, but from what they were
saying on the radio, they were like, “These are all kind of spent rounds and they’re just built into
the walls.” I don’t know if it was a structural thing or whatever, but then they’re like, “But this
one here is alive.” Then there was this cool discussion like, “We’re just going to blow it up in
place.” And the guy is like, “No, no, no. Don’t blow up my house. I’ll bring it out into the field
and you guys can do whatever you want with it.” “He says he’ll bring it out into the field for us.”
They’re like, “I don’t know…let him do it.” So, he brings it out into the field and they put some
demo on it and they blow it up. Then you hear on the radio, “We’re going to need to take this
guy into custody as soon as we take care of this.” Which, I guess, is a reasonable thing if you
find some kind of bomb in there–– regardless if his house is made up of a bunch of spent bombs,
you still probably want to question the guy. But, the problem was–– so we’re sitting a few meters
away and looking down at this guy and this open field where they just blew up the thing. They
walk up and as soon as they get to him–– one of our guys–– he grabs him and just hip-tosses him
to the ground and just smashes the guy and then they put him inside the back of the Stryker and
then they bring him back to [Fraughtnack]. (1:01:22). What I hear later on is–– once again, this
could’ve just been rumors I heard–– right after that day, we went back to Kaf. I heard later on,
that one of the reasons we got sent back there is because one of our lieutenants–– one of the guys
from our actual troop–– went and complained to some of the leadership of this battalion saying,
“You guys are being a little rough on this guy.” “Okay, we hear you. Leave.” Once again, I could
be completely wrong. And the thing that–– another time when we were out there during this
whole escapade, we were just sitting there at one point in time, during the night, and they saw
some guys planting an IED on the side of the road. My platoon sergeant had a running bet with
our XO–– our XO, who I, for some reason, hated with a passion–– and he said [that] he’d bet us
that, “We will never use you guys. We’ll never fire one mortar the entire time we’re in
Afghanistan.” The guy’s cruel. (1:02:26).
Interviewer: “We were talking about your first deployment in Afghanistan and we were
talking about the Executive Officer of your unit, who, for some reason, didn’t like you guys
�and didn’t like mortars and wasn’t going to let mortars shoot. So, kind of pick up the story
with that.”
Yeah. It was kind of weird because how it worked, originally, he was–– when we were in our
troop back in garrison, he was the Lieutenant in charge of the actual support headquarters
section–– which included the mortars. Initially, we liked him. He was a good guy and
everything. But then he got promoted to XO, and I don’t know if he got indoctrinated into the
Cav “way” or whatever, but he ended up completely hating us and our platoon sergeant hated
him and our whole platoon hated him–– he hated us. But he bet our platoon–– my platoon
sergeant and he had a bet that we would never fire any mortars in Afghanistan, and if we did, we
would never fire any highly explosive mortars in Afghanistan, and if he lost he had to buy us all
pizza. I don’t remember what he got if he won. But, we were out some night, sitting around
doing nothing of course, and apparently they see some guys planting an IED on the side of the
road and we’re just like, “Come on. Call us, call us, call us.” But instead, this guy elects to call in
air support and they have a couple Kiowas–– helicopters–– come in and they break these guys
and kill them. From our perspective, we could only see the rockets and the machine gun rounds
coming down or whatever the heck they were using–– 30 cal. All we could see was the rounds
coming down from where we were at. (1:04:41). I think later on there was a video circulated of
the actual infrared of them getting blown away–– at least that’s what they said it was a video of. I
mean, at this point in time, after all the different Facebook videos and everything, they could’ve
just gotten it from anywhere. But back in ‘09 or whatever, there probably weren't quite as many
of those going around. I think that it was a legit video of them–– it could’ve been any other
firefight, but I believe it was this one. Then, we went back to Kandahar. We still don’t have a
solid, “Where are troops going to go?” We don’t have a home yet and everything like that,
whereas all of these other guys, they’re set up on their own FOBs and they have their own
quarters where they have their stuff. We’re just still backpacking our way around the country like
a bunch of gypsies, as we would say. Once again, we come back and all of our parking spots are
gone–– there’s all these new units and we have to find a new spot. But, eventually they get to the
point where it’s the end of September and they’re like, “We’re going to send these guys to this
place called FOB Ramrod. We’re going to attach [the] Alpha troop to 2/1 Infantry. They’re not
going to be with 3/61 anymore. And, we’re going to take a company from 2/1 Infantry and we’re
going to attach them to––” Did I say 3/61? I meant 8/1, at this point in time. “We’re going to
take a troop from 8/1 and give it to 2/1 Infantry Battalion. Take a company from them and give it
to 8/1. And then from there, we’re going to take two platoons from the Cav’s of Alpha troop and
give one each to a company of 2/1, and then give two platoons from each of these companies to
Alpha troop because…” I don’t know [why] the fuck. Because it’s the Army and nothing has to
make sense. I don’t know. Maybe they thought there would be some kind of cross-collaboration
where Infantry 11-Bravos mixed with Scouts–– I don’t know. Maybe they thought they would
kind of complement each other. (1:07:02).
�Interviewer: “Did the Infantry have vehicles other than Strykers? Would adding Strykers to
a particular unit give it any advantage or benefit?”
Well, all of our brigades had Strykers. I mean, you do have some support vehicles, LMTVs––
which are just big trucks–– supply trucks.
Interviewer: “But the different units had essentially the same equipment?”
I believe the Infantry varied its Stryker. It’s slightly different than the Scout one, where the Scout
one has something on it where you can attach–– I believe it’s called an LRAD–– [an] imaging
system or whatever. I think the Infantry vehicles had slightly more room in the back to
accommodate carrying personnel and everything like that. But it’s still negligible, I guess.
Interviewer: “So, they’re mixing all of these units up. Now, what happens with that?”
So, we’re assigned to our particular sections and whatever. Once we got to Ramrod we pretty
much, for the most part, we kind of stopped moving around and everything like that–– like the
mortars. Everyone else–– I mean, the other guys still did patrols and everything like that. I
believe one of the companies was stationed at another FOB or COP down the road–– and
apparently they got attacked quite a bit, but where we were at–– if you know anything about the
landscape of Kandahar, for the most part, it’s nothing but desert. Like a flat desert and there was
one mountain in the distance and then you have villages here, here, and here–– just random, it
seems like. But where our FOB was, it was just [the] middle of nowhere. When we first got
there, my platoon was tasked with pulling hot gun, where you set up [the] Stryker and you have
24/7 just listening to the radio for them to call us for support whether it be HE–– high explosive–
– or illumination. 99 percent of the time they would just call us for illumination at night for the
patrols that were out. (1:09:30). We had our own tent right now–– they called it GP medium. We
had like 13/15 guys in there–– it was pretty crowded. We just had our bunks and all of our stuff
shoved underneath. We used some empty illumination round boxes to house some of our stuff.
And we had about that much room between bunks and everything like that–– that’s it. Once
again, reflecting–– there’s empty tents on the other side and all of the Cav platoons, they’re split
up like eight guys each in their tents and we’re housing 13/15 guys in here. We’re just like,
“Why can’t we stay in these?” Our First Sergeant was like, “I think I might want to turn it into a
gym or something eventually.” But, once again, they all hated us for some reason. We hated all
of them too. So, we’re stuck in these tents and we pull 12-hour shifts between us, so you split the
platoon in half [for] 12-hour shifts. My squad, with our platoon sergeant, had midnight to noon
and then our other squad with our Staff Sergeant would take over with his guys. There was no
tent or anything set up at that point in time. It was just our Strykers sitting there, a couple of cots
right outside. Then, we’d hang out and talk for a couple of hours and fire off some rounds when
they called us, and then a couple guys would rotate out and they would go catch a little bit of
�sleep in the cots outside of the Stryker. (1:11:21). If any missions got called, we’d yell out and
they would come in–– we attempted to yell out and they would come in. It was actually kind of
cool how we had it set up because we had two radios going–– one listening to the talk [of] the
actual headquarters, talking out to the guys. We’re listening to the fire control talk on one radio–
– who calls in the fire missions to us–– and then we also have the radio going listening to the
guys out on patrol. We hear them call up for fire support–– not fire support, but “illumination”––
and we’d hear them calling up the fire request–– the fire mission–– to the talk. Meanwhile, we’re
inputting all of our data and getting our gun up and then the talk calls back down to us, gives us
all of the data, and as soon as they get done we’re like, “Shot over” and they’re like, “Oh, yeah.
Shot out.” I mean, it was literally like that. It was like how were [we] set already? Also, where
the whole fire support area is, there’s also a battery of 155s like 50 meters away or 25 meters
away. They would also call for illumination rounds. And those things–– they’re just so loud and
they just make you jump every time they fire. It’s kind of funny, this one time me and my
platoon sergeant were sitting up late, doing our guard, and then like two or three other guys, they
were sleeping on the side of the Stryker. (1:13:08). We get a call for an illumination mission. We
started yelling to them, but they’re not coming and we need to get stuff up and going. My
platoon sergeant is putting the information into the computer and he’s trying to pull out rounds at
the same time and prep them while I’m trying to get the gun up. I’m getting the gun up–– which
is supposed to be just my job–– then there’s supposed to be a guy prepping the rounds and
there’s supposed to be a guy hanging the rounds, and then there’s supposed to be the platoon
sergeant putting it all into the computer. But, it’s just me and my platoon sergeant doing all of
this and we’re like, “Where the fuck is everyone?” Like, he’s prepping it, I’m actually adjusting
the gun and I’m grabbing the round and running it over and dropping it back, and just doing this
circle. Eventually we get done [and] we walk to the side of the Stryker and they’re still sleeping
there even though we’re firing a 120mm mortar five feet away from their heads. [We’re] like,
“Really? You guys didn’t wake up?” I guess [it’s] something you just get used to over time. And
we stayed down there for like a month or so and guys started rotating out on leave and
everything like that. At one point–– I think it was like October–– we had just gotten off shift, so
it was about 12 o’clock, and my platoon sergeant went straight to the phone bank to call home.
The rest of us went back to the tent to go to sleep. And they way it’s set up is you have your FOB
and the walls out there, and then we had our mortar point right here and then you had another
wall of HESCO barriers and then you just have a hole in the wall–– a gap–– and then you just
walk out and go over there. (1:15:03). I had just walked around the corner when all of the sudden
I heard the “thunk” and I’m like, “Huh. They’re firing already?” It kind of sounded different–– I
mean, if you know what explosions sound like, outgoing and incoming sound different, where
the actual explosion has this kind of “thunk” to it, whereas the outgoing is just this loud bang. I
walk around the corner and I’m like, “That’s kind of weird.” I see all this dust coming in and I’m
like looking around. I kind of walk–– our tent is like right here, then a wall, mortar point right
here, and the explosion happened right here–– I walk out [and] I look around like, “Huh.” I walk
a little bit further so I can see the mortar point around the corner and I can see our guys come
�running out and I’m like, “Oh, shit.” And they’re like, “Get the guys. Get the guys.” So, I
immediately ran in and I got the guys and said we got incoming and I ran to the phone bank and
grabbed our platoon sergeant. Apparently, they fired a couple rounds at us and then I heard also
that we had like the Battalion Commander and some guys [that] were outside the FOB
somewhere and like they started taking incoming also–– at least that’s what I heard. So, we get
up on the guns and we’re listening to the radio and the way it works is that they have some kind
of radar system that, when a round comes in, it can give you where it came from. Not exactly the
most accurate thing in the world, because on time we had a mortar incoming and it came back to
us like, “The grid is blah, blah blah.” My platoon sergeant is like, “Wait a minute.” He starts
plotting that out and is like, “That’s 12 miles away. We can’t reach that and neither can they.”
So, it’s not foolproof, but they gave us a grid and we fired back at them and at least–– they
stopped firing after that. I heard a rumor that someone went out and found a destroyed mortar or
something after that. Once again, that could’ve been a rumor. Looking back, it’s hard to say.
That was enough for us to earn our Combat Infantry Badge. We were all really excited about
that. (1:17:45).
Interviewer: “So, you actually got to fire an explosive round out of the mortar too.”
Yeah. Yeah–– which was nice. Occasionally–– one other time–– we got some incoming and we
returned it and don’t know if we hit anything or not because the initial reading that they gave us
for the grid was completely off, so who knows if the second one was anywhere near it. But, we
got to fire and then a few other times they called us in for high explosive rounds just so they
could blow up a suspected IED site or something like that. We were really excited about that. A
couple of our guys that were out on leave were pissed because they missed it and everything like
that. One thing I forgot to say [was] when we first got to Kaf and before we went on that first
mission, like the night before, we were ordered to go to the ammo-supply point and collect our
mortar rounds and everything, because obviously we didn’t ship them over there with our
Strykers. And we were sitting out there for, gosh, I don’t know, a few hours. We didn’t know
what was taking so long. I didn’t think we were drawing that many. And we’re sitting there, back
hatch down of our Stryker, and all of the sudden–– throughout the rest of the day–– we kept
hearing the Air Force had the A-10s going over and firing. And they have a distinct sound of
their gun, the rrr. So, I kind of had that in my mind the whole time. (1:19:22). And we’re sitting
out there and all of the sudden all of the sudden I hear, “shhp” or something like that, and for that
brief second it flashed through my mind like, “What the hell is the Air Force doing now?” But
then, all the sudden it was like “boom” and we heard the explosion. We were sitting on the side
of this berm and the inside is the actual ammo-point. The round goes in and they explode inside
there–– kind of cool. We all got inside of our Strykers and closed the door and that was it. It was
kind of cool, I mean, the round flew right over our heads. Kaf and everything regularly get some
kind of rockets or mortars that come in. Most of the time it’s kind of pointless to even respond,
because the way that they do it is they have time-delay fuses where they don’t even have to be
�anywhere nearby. I mean Kaf, it’s kind of striking to me. It’s like an entire city just built out of
the middle of nowhere. So, a lot of the time you would hear the air-raid sirens go off but the
rounds land so far away, you can’t even hear it go off. No sign that anything even happened
except for the siren going off and everyone having to go into the bunkers. By the time you get
done with the deployment–– when you first get there you’re like, “Oh, cool. It’s an air-raid.” By
the time you get done with the deployment you’re like, “I bet I can get to the Burger King on the
boardwalk right now” while everyone is hiding out. I tried to do that, but I got caught by some
douchebag Colonel. (1:21:11). So, there was that. But, back on Ramrod, after we fired like that,
we spent some more time on hot gun. But, then we rotated off and other platoons rotated in. We
got put on what was called [sounds like “mare so”] once again we kind of got stuck with the shit
jobs where we had to go around and empty the trash bins or–– I escorted the Afghan workers
around who emptied the porta potties everywhere, and stuff like that. The best job was the trash
detail because you got to drive around in an LMTV and the Afghan guys would throw the stuff
in the back and then when they were done, we would drive outside of the FOB. Once again,
we’re in the middle of nowhere–– we didn’t really need any kind of security. We’d just roll out
and dump it all out in some hole–– we had a giant, massive garbage hole–– and pour a bunch of
gasoline onto it and light it on fire. A big old fire would go and everything like that. Though,
apparently now people are saying burn pits like that give people cancer or something. I haven’t
had any adverse effects, so I don’t know. Actually, I think at first they didn’t have Afghan guys
and we had to pick up our trash ourselves, but eventually we got some Afghan workers and all
we would do is just follow them around in our truck. I mean, it wasn’t a bad job. Well, it was a
bad job but compared to some of the other ones, it didn’t require that much work. We did that
on-and-off for a few months. Go back to “mares” back onto hot gun. We got lucky because the
mortar platoon that relieved us, they were more motivated than us and they built a whole big
tent/hut that had bunks and desks and everything. As soon as they got it up, we came in, kicked
them out and we were like, “Awesome. We have a tent now.” (1:23:18). So, we had a good set
up there. We had power–– you’d go down there and plug-in your laptop [and] watch movies or
whatever all night. Or play Risk or something like that. It was just funny because I would always
win, and we had this one kid who–– somehow–– I could always talk him into teaming up with
me and then as soon as we’d conquer everyone else, I would betray him every single time. But,
somehow he still kept on teaming up with me. But, that’s kind of here or there.
Interviewer: “Now while you’re out there, do you have much opportunity to communicate
with anybody back home?”
We could communicate [with] back home. This is back in like ‘09 and ‘10, so the whole age of
Skype and everything was not really quite there yet. Also, they were putting in the internet for us
to get on the FOB–– like half of the FOB had internet, but of course, being the mortars, we’re off
in the middle of nowhere where people don’t give a shit about us so we don’t have internet. But,
they did have a phone bank–– an MWR station–– where we had four or five phones and then
�there were some computers. You could call home. When we were on hot guns–– 12-hour shifts–
– especially in the middle of the night, when most people were sleeping, there usually wasn’t a
huge need. We had enough guys that we could spare someone if they wanted to, we could rotate
and they could go put their laundry in or go use the phone real quick. (1:25:32). But, the problem
was, as time went on, I think two of the phones broke and then also we had an entire battalion
and I think we had some other guys on there, so this is a pretty decent size FOB so we had
probably 700 people on this FOB, and we had like three phones. So, there’s always some giant
line out the door and there’s a time limit of like ten minutes on the phone–– max. It was not a
good set up. It’s funny, I would call my parents and we’re talking–– and I guess it’s a testament
to deployment and Army people’s bad choice in women–– and you would just be sitting there
and the guy next to you would start screaming into the phone at his wife or girlfriend [like],
“Why am I checking the credit card balance [and] why the fuck are you at the club at two
o’clock in the morning? Spending all of my money and I’m over here. I know you’re not out
there with just your friends every single night.” I’d just be sitting there like, “Everything is going
good here mom.” You’re just trying to ignore the fact that this guy is cursing out his wife.
Actually, out of our platoon, I think we had four or five guys that got married within three
months of deploying. I think three of those guys–– all but one–– got married two weeks before
they deployed. Within a year of getting back, I think, all but one was divorced. I think one of
them ended up spending the guy’s money on things like casinos and drugs, too. I don’t know if
anyone actually cheated or not–– maybe. I know a couple of guys on my next deployment, they
got cheated on by their wives. It’s amazing how common it is. I mean, you hear the stereotype,
but it’s 100 percent true that there’s an infidelity problem in the military. (1:27:53).
Interviewer: “There’s also a stereotype–– at least around some different bases–– that
women are interested in marrying guys basically so they can get benefits or whatever else it
is while they’re off someplace else.”
Oh, yeah. I mean, that’s a lot of the idea. I think they’re definitely dependent hounds out there or
whatever, but a lot of these guys–– a few of them–– they had been in a relationship for a while. I
think at least two of them–– the one that lasted and another one–– they had known the girls
before the Army and everything like that, and the other ones met them around the base. So, I
don’t know if there were extra benefits or what. But, there’s an actual financial benefit––
supposedly–– for getting married because then you get your BAH, which you don’t get if you’re
a single soldier living in the barracks. You also get BAS–– which is supposed to provide for food
and everything–– which is a few hundred bucks a month. BAH, depending on where you’re at,
is 1,000/2,000 bucks a month. And then, on top of that, you get separation pay for when you’re
overseas which–– I don’t know–– is like three to six hundred bucks a month, or something like
that. That’s of course, on top of all of your combat pay and everything like that. So, there is a
benefit. And these guys think, “If we get married, we’ll get all of this extra money. We’re
already dating, why not? I’m in love with you, we’re going to last.” And some of them are like
�[they’ll] set up an allotment where it’s just like the bare minimum. The Army says [they] are
only required to give her 800 bucks of my paycheck, so [they’ll] set up an allotment for that and
[they’ll] be able to pocket all of this other money. And it never, never works out that way. Ever.
(1:29:54). Because even if they set up an allotment where they only get this, eventually, they get
ahold of the bank account number or they end up calling the unit saying, “I’m a wife of [this]
soldier. I can’t support myself” or something like that. Then the Commander has to come in like,
“You have to give your wife more money.” It never worked. I think my platoon sergeant had it
down-pat. He went in and was like, “I know [if] I’m going overseas, I have to accept the fact that
I’m not going to be making that much extra money. I know I’m not coming back to a big
paycheck.” It really pisses off the married guys when they’re saying they are looking at their
bank account. Like us single soldiers, we’re looking at our bank accounts, [and] our money is
piling up, we have the extra pay, we don’t have anywhere to spend that pay while it’s piling up.
While theirs is just sitting there and they know they’re getting paid more, but somehow they’re
losing money, and everything like that. It’s ended a lot of marriages. (1:31:00).
Interviewer: “Are there other phases of your deployment after the kind of the activities
you’ve been talking about or do you just move around to different bases doing the same
kinds of things for the rest of that time?”
Well, we pretty much stayed on Ramrod for the rest of the deployment. We rotated between
“maresell” and hot gun and everything like that. At one point in time I got leave to go home. It
originally landed on Christmas, [but] I traded to go home on Thanksgiving because I didn’t want
to go through the hassle of Christmas and everything like that. But then when I was home on
leave, my guys got tasked to go back out to Arghandab to help out with that whole battalion.
While they were there and I was back home, my mom’s telling me the FRG stuff. One day I
woke up and she’s telling me, “Apparently your unit had some casualties.” Immediately, I’m
like, “Oh, shit. Who is it?” She was like, “[Do] you know Joseph Lewis?” I’m like, “Joseph? Oh,
shit. Lewis?” [It] was this guy in one of our platoons–– they were going through Arghandab and
they hit an IED. He was driving and [it] killed him and everything like that. I mean, he wasn’t in
my platoon, but I worked with the guy quite a bit. He was–– I think anyone in the company
would hands down say he was kind of like the “joker”–– [the] funniest guy there. There’s kind of
this stereotype–– I don’t know if it’s a stereotype–– I guess I can say it’s a stereotype, like when
you first get to the unit they say to the virgins, “Oh, you better get laid” or whatever. My last
unit–– the virgin, he always gets killed or something like that. He had this idea that it’s like the
virgin who gets killed. It’s that weird, creepy guy–– naturally, it’s going to be them. But now,
it’s always the ones who have the most. (1:33:24). Apparently he had a wife [and] a newborn kid
and he told me that apparently he didn’t need to be in the Army anymore–– that he had made a
bunch of money in the stock market. Enough that the Army gave him the option to leave, or
something like that. Which, it could’ve been bullshit, or not, but either way, I knew he had a wife
and kid. Yeah. It’s kind of that. One of the guys in my platoon, he was the guy's best friend. It
�really hit him really hard. Yeah. That was a shocker and everything like that. I don’t know.
Maybe it’s unique to me, but one experience I had was I liked the idea of war. I mean, I never
immediately kind of feared for my life at any point in time, but there were some moments like
that first mission–– or the few that we actually got to go on after that–– where it was like the
night before, or a few hours before, and you’re just sitting there–– and maybe it’s just me–– but
it’s like, “Wow. I could lose my life tomorrow” or something like that, or, “I could die
tomorrow.” It’s a weird kind of awareness of your mortality, I guess you could say. I mean,
eventually that goes away with boredom–– at least on my part because nothing exciting ever
really happens, so complacency happens. (1:35:11). They warn you constantly about
complacency, “Don’t become complacent.” But, it happens to everyone, eventually, to a degree,
and you do things to minimize it. That’s where the discipline comes in [and] you can’t drone off
too far. But, yeah. That was kind of a unique feeling and everything like that. But, for the most
part, the rest of the deployment is very boring–– just illumination missions. Eventually we
moved out of the tent and into CHUs or whatever–– the little housing units that they had where
it’s like a box or an empty connex that they have renovated into housing. Eventually we got
some internet–– I mean, it was slow as hell and it cost way too much–– but it was better than
what we had. Eventually, it was just me and one other guy in a room as opposed to 13, so it was
nice. (1:36:15).
Interviewer: “Did you have any feel of how large your mission is going, or were you
accomplishing anything? Or, do you have no idea?”
I can’t believe I almost forgot. I sensed the surge or whatever outside when we were in Kaf, just
because of the build up and everything. But, when we were out where we were at–– I guess I
sensed it out there because they kept on building up the FOB and everything. Like, at one point
in time we were trying to expand out the FOB to where we could actually have a 1,000 meter
shooting range, or something like that. There was also talk that they might eventually make a
landing strip just big enough for C-130s to land. Nothing ever came of it, like when we set up all
these HESCO barriers for the shooting range, but we didn’t get around filling them and then
winds came in and blew them all over. That was a couple good weeks of work gone down the
drain, but I guess since that. And then there was also [that] my unit had a unique role in the fact
that–– okay. So, at one point in time, while we were on hot gun, we’re listening to the radio and
we heard on the radio, “Hey, CID is here and they’re going through second platoon’s Stryker
right now.” CID–– the Criminal Investigation Division–– the cops, not the MPs, but the actual
detectives of the Army, “They’re going through second platoon’s Stryker.” I’m listening to that
radio like, “Huh.” We just assumed that they probably got some tip from the Afghans–– there
were poppy and weed fields everywhere–– so we assumed they got a tip that someone was
hoarding some weed, or something like that. (1:38:19). Then, a few days later CID came down
and questioned us, and we each took a turn going in and talking to the guy. They’re like, “So,
have you heard anything about anything illegal going on? Do you know why we’re here?” We’re
�like, “I haven’t heard anything. We heard on the radio that you guys were going through second
platoon’s Stryker’s.” At that point, they laugh and they’re like, “Really? They put that on the
radio?” I don’t know. They kind of laughed that we heard about it. He was like, “Could you
suspect why we’re here?” I’m like, “I don’t know–– just a wild guess, nothing to back it up––
maybe drugs or something?” And they’re like, “Okay. Whatever.” Then they leave. A little while
goes by and we’re in the CHUs and we have the internet–– I’m still trying to stay informed––
and go onto FoxNews.com and see a thing like “Cavalry Unit Stryker Brigade Accused of War
Crimes in Afghanistan.” And I’m like, “Oh, shit. I know why CID was here.” And apparently,
one of our platoons–– like one of the infantry platoons that was attached to our troop–– they had
gone out and they had murdered a couple of civilians and they had staged it to make it look like
they had taken contact. Actually, one of our guys actually thought he had his chance to get his
CIB through this. He was one of the guys that was initially gone on leave and he was going on a
convoy with this platoon coming back from Kaf–– a supply run or something. Apparently, these
guys shot a couple of guys and threw a hand grenade out and said it was an IED–– or they tried
to fire an RPG–– and my guy, I don’t know, like they were somewhere else in the convoy and
they didn’t know what was going on. But, they just knew an explosion went off, so he kind of
had this hope that he was going to get CIB, but no, they had killed a couple guys. (1:40:49). One
of them actually cut off a finger and hid it or something like that. So, I think a couple of guys are
in Leavenworth right now because of that. One more experience, I guess, that kind of stands out
is towards the end of our deployment. We were firing HE like the “fisters,” the forward
observers. They were doing some training calling in fire missions and where the mortar point is,
it’s on the far side of the FOB at the very end and then the FOB goes for 600 meters or
something like that–– maybe longer. And we’re shooting over the FOB and if you know how a
mortar works, you have the mortar and then you have the tail and on the tail you have what they
call cheese charges, whereas there’s four of these little donut looking things that slip over it
which are made up of like nitroglycerin and gunpowder. Depending on how far you want the
round to go, it depends on how many of these cheese charges you lay on. If you only wanted to
go 1,000 meters, you may only leave one of these charges on. We’re shooting charge one. So,
one charge on [and] we’re shooting over the FOB. (1:42:30). At this point in time, I’m prepping
the rounds–– I’m the ammo bearer. I’m taking out the rounds, I’m handing it to the guy. I’m
taking off the cheese charges–– that’s what I mean by prepping. I’m taking it out of the tube, I’m
taking the cheese charges off, I’m handing it to the assistant gunner who then drops the round.
One guy is actually pointing the gun and the squad leader is putting the information into the
computer. Some of these things, I mean–– cheese charges are not like a solid block. Some of
them are a little more firm on it than others because they have to be easy enough to pull off. And
I took them off. Apparently the charge that was left on it was not as firm around there as others.
When I handed it to the guy–– I’m making it clear–– it was on the round. But our HE is this
giant, six foot six, 260/300 pound guy, and he loves his job. He’s just swinging those rounds out
there and dropping them–– he was having a good time. He takes this round–– and we’re just
getting done with our fire for effect for about five rounds, just quick, off in a row like that–– and
�I think it was the last round, I handed it to him and he takes it up and flings it up and drops it. But
when he flung it up, the charge flew off [and] hit my squad leader–– who was putting the
information in the computer–– in the face and dropped the round. As soon as that happens our
squad leader holds up the charge like, “Dude. This flew off.” We’re like, “Oh shit.” Because we
know–– we’re shooting over the entire FOB on charge one and that charge just flew off.
(1:44:25). So, we’re immediately just looking over like, “Come on. Just make it over the FOB.”
The round lands and we’re all the way on the other side. We see the dust or the dirt come up,
[but] we can’t tell if it’s inside or outside the FOB. And we immediately started hearing on the
radio, “Hey, we just had a round land inside the FOB.” It didn’t–– it landed right outside. But
either way, we’re hearing this on the radio and we’re like, “Oh my god. We’re going to jail,” and
stuff like that. And then there’s–– none of us are saying this, but personally, I’m thinking, “Oh
my god. What if we killed someone,” an Afghan or especially if it was an American. I mean,
how do you live with that? Eventually, the battalion Commander comes down to do a little
investigation and at first we have a little issue with one of the rounds, when we first took it out of
the tube, it was already missing some charges. So, the original ammo bearer, he was first
prepping the rounds. He was doing all of this and he made note of that. I wasn’t doing the ammo
bearing at that point in time, but halfway through the shoot he had to go catch a flight
somewhere. So, initially when we did the count, we came up short on the cheese charges and
they were just like, “What the hell is going on here?” It was like we’re hiding something, but
then we’re like, “Remember that first round? It didn’t have all of the charges on there.” He’s
like, “Okay.” So we get the charge, we get the numbers right, [and] we explain to them, “This is
what happened, It was naturally loose. It came off. Shit happens.” They’re like, “Okay. We
understand.” (1:46:40). But even still, the Sergeant Major took us out to where the round landed.
It landed right outside a watchtower, which, during the day, is manned by Afghan Security
Forces. We had to go in and apologize to the Afghans there. And the guard tower, it had
bulletproof glass so you could see that some shrapnel had hit it, and up above on the top where it
was wood you could see where a couple things were going in. It was bad because my squad
leader, he’s kind of–– he was one of the guys who was first coming up with us. He was one of
the Privates who came in before me. He got promoted, once again, kind of with us. We had a
need for NCOs to fill some ranks, and he got promoted. But the problem was, he’s this guy that
has this natural sarcastic grin on his face. So we go in to apologize to the Afghans and we’re like,
“I’m sorry man,” and he just has this big grin on his face the whole time and the guys are just
glaring at us–– that was awkward. But yeah, that was our first deployment and we rotated back, I
guess. (1:48:09).
Interviewer: “As you get close to the end of it, do you have a scheduled departure date or do
you know approximately? Does anything change before you go?”
Well, we had a general idea that was like we’ll be leaving in July, which you could kind of
automatically figure out because you know deployments are a year-long at this point in time. As
�you get closer to it, they eventually start making up a chalk list of what flight you’re on. I mean,
naturally they don’t just pull the whole unit out all at once. The new unit slowly goes in as you
slowly go out. Eventually you get word [of] what truck number you’re on and eventually your
number comes up and you drag all of your stuff out to the airfield, get on a helicopter, fly back to
Kaf, wait there for a couple of weeks or something, catch a flight back to Manas, wait a little bit
there, catch a flight back home.
Interviewer: “Now, when you get back to the States, do they do any kind of debriefing or
other kinds of things to help you adjust to being back home again, or do you just get sent
home?”
Well, we had to inprocess and then there was some more paperwork, do some medical
screenings, and do my hearing test again because firing 60 millimeter mortars, except for this
particular one, where I fired and didn’t have my earplugs in at the time and it like blew out my
hearing. I couldn’t hear for about three weeks–– well, it slowly came back–– but for at least a
week or so all I heard was “beeeer.” I thought I might’ve lost my hearing at that point. (1:50:06).
I still do have some hearing loss and tinnitus. The VA gives me a little bit of money for that, so I
think it’s worth it. But yeah, you do some screenings. I think at one point in time one of the
stations you go through–– you had to fill out some form on the computer or whatever. I
remember one of the questions was like, “How many drinks do you have per month?” Or like,
“On average, how much do you drink?” And, “How often do you have six or more alcoholic
beverages?” At this point in time, I wasn’t even really drinking then. But, there were some times
where you would go out and you would go into a bar or you would go into your buddies place,
and you drink that night. I’m like, “Maybe once a month I have six or more beers at one
particular time.” Which is very mild for the Army. So you go through and this lady was looking
at your file like, “Okay. According to this, you have six or more beers once a month. Do you
wanna talk to someone and get some help with that?” I’m like, “What? Why?” “This says that
you’re getting falling-down-drunk at least once a month.” I’m like, “No I don’t want any help.
This is fine. I’m 21 years old right now. I’m in the Army. Trust me, this is not a big deal.” Then,
yeah. You come home [and] you go on block leave. I think at one point in time during the inprocessing someone asked us if there was anything we wanted to talk about or something like
that. I don’t know if anyone took them up on that, I think most guys just said flat out, “Nah. I’m
good.” (1:52:03).
Interviewer: “So there’s not really much of any kind of effort to provide education about
what kinds of stuff to watch out for in terms of behavior or anything else, or different
things to be aware of when you go back to being a civilian–– not a civilian, but back in the
States because you still have time left on your enlistment?”
�I don’t remember if we had–– I mean, they warned us not to go out and get DUIs and stuff, [but]
I don’t remember if we actually had any classes the first time around. We probably did–– I don’t
exactly remember. I know we had some stuff [after] my second deployment where they went
through and were like, “This is going to be a big adjustment for you married guys. It’s going to
be like living with a stranger.” I think at one point in time they had something about interacting
with civilians or something. I’m just thinking back to my second deployment. I just remember
because I had one of the funniest–– inappropriate–– pick-up lines. Hopefully no one that’s
eventually going to interview me or admit me to grad school or something like that sees this, but
there were these civilian ladies and they’re asking us, “Tell us a good pick-up line” or something
like that. They were like, “It can be the most raunchy thing. Tell us a funny pick-up line.” I don’t
remember where it was going into, I think it was interacting with civilians at the park. One guy
raises his hand and is like, “Hey. You know how I know we’re going to have sex tonight?”
“How?” “Because I’m stronger than you.” So, it was kind of one of those things that was funny.
So we had some reintegration training, at least the second time around. I’m pretty sure the first
time too, I just don’t recall totally. (1:53:56).
Interviewer: “So you do come back, you get some leave home or whatever because you have
been overseas, and then do you go back to Fort Lewis? Or, what do you do next?”
First you in-process at Lewis and then I think we got pretty much most of August–– you have an
opportunity to take leave. I mean, you’ve been saving up [for] leave. They charge you for your
leave when you’re overseas, so you have the option to take a month of leave. I think I took three
weeks because I wanted to have a little bit of leave in the bank and also I was PCSing to
Colorado soon, so I wanted to make sure that I had some extra travel days if I needed them. So I
think I spent three weeks in August on leave. Came home, did some out-processing from the
unit, and then I went out to Colorado.
Interviewer: “So you have a new unit you’re being assigned to out there?”
Yep.
Interviewer: “What unit is that?”
3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade, 4th Infantry Division.
Interviewer: “Is this a unit that is recently back from somewhere, or planning to deploy?
Or, kind of, where are they in their sequence?”
They deployed in roughly the same timeframe as us. I want to say they got back like a month
before we did. They were in Afghanistan also. They were up in the Kunar area, and they actually
�saw some real shit up there. One of their troops actually got into a big, massive engagement
where a couple of guys actually walked away with medals of honor and everything like that. So,
in a war where there has only been a couple dozen medal of honors, two of them came from this
one action. So, yeah–– they had just gotten back. I in-processed with them and everything like
that. (1:56:04).
Interviewer: “Now, why were you changing units? Was that a standard procedure or did
you request to move?”
No. When I was deployed–– when I originally enlisted, I enlisted for three years. When I was
deployed–– I said earlier–– I absolutely loved my platoon and everything like that, despite the
way that castouts cheated us and our shitty unit. I absolutely loved it. I enjoyed my job and
everything like that–– the people I worked with–– so I wanted to reenlist. So, I reenlisted
overseas and part of that was that I got to choose from a select group of options of places I could
PCS to. It’s one of the enticements or benefits of reenlisting. I don’t know if it’s still the case, but
you get some choice of where you get to go. Not every single place, but depending on what units
need–– troops–– and what units don’t.
Interviewer: “And you said ‘PCS’ too. What does that mean?”
Oh PCS–– oh gosh, what does it stand for? I don’t remember actually what the acronym stands
for, but it’s when you move from one unit to another. I remember I had a choice between Hawaii
or Colorado. I heard good things about Colorado–– people loved it. Hawaii, of course–– it’s
Hawaii, so that’s also a thing. The problem is that I had been living in Washington for a few
years. Where it is–– if you’ve ever been to Washington, especially the Fort Lewis area–– you
know that nine months out of those years it is raining and you don’t see the sun. And then I go to
Afghanistan where it is hot all year round, except for like December where it gets down to 50/60
degrees–– minimum. So, at this point in time, I’m like Hawaii sounds nice, but I come from
Michigan. I want seasons and everything like that. I want a Summer and a Winter and everything
like that–– I was an idiot, I could’ve gone to Hawaii but I chose Colorado. (1:58:26).
Interviewer: “Was it not an option to stay with your original unit?”
It was definitely an option, but at this point in time I was thinking I wanted to stay in for 20
years. From talking to my NCOs and everything like that, you need to move around, at least a
little bit, to get experiences or whatever. I mean, not just stick with just Strykers. You should go
to MAC, infantry, airborne, to show that you’ve moved around. Also, you want to experience
different things and everything like that. To get away from Washington where it’s–– apparently
everyone wants to go to Fort Lewis, until you actually get to Fort Lewis–– at least if you’re an
infantry guy who actually has to work outside quite a bit, whereas, I don’t know, if you’re an
�office person it’s great. Because it is absolutely beautiful most of the time, but it rains so much.
If you’re working outside that’s not great.
Interviewer: “So, you’re going to Colorado now. This is a unit that has got a lot of people
who are themselves veterans who have been over, deployed, and back. How do they treat
you coming in? Do they pay attention to whether or not you’ve been anywhere?”
I mean, you’re not viewed as a Private at this point in time. They see that you’re a Specialist, that
you have CIB and a combat patch on your shoulder–– they give you some credit or whatever. I
mean, you have Specialists that are in a similar situation. They have experience and they’re not a
day one guy. Even the NCOs–– like the E-5s or whatever–– they know that they were just
recently Specialists themselves, so they show you quite a bit of respect. Even the higher-up
NCOs, they expect that you know stuff. There’s no real reason to haze you and everything like
that. (2:00:28). So, when we first got to the unit–– when you get back from deployment, no one
really wants to do anything. No one. The higher-ups or anyone. Because you just spent your
whole year–– I mean, you don’t have a deployment on the horizon. Things are still slow and
you’re still waiting for all of your gear to get back–– which takes a few months. So, not a lot of
need to immediately jump into things. A lot of the times you could skip PT–– even when we did
do PT, all of our E-6s and above in our platoon, the mortar platoon, which was consolidated into
the headquarters troop of our squadron, all the E-6s and above were broken in someway––
which, by the time you get higher up, lots of guys end up having some kind of leg, knee, back
problem. They are eliminated in PT in some different way. They’re not doing PT, so they just
delegate it to the E-5s. But I mean, everyone is just in this platoon fully relaxed and everything––
and they just got back from deployment. So they’re like, “Go do PT.” “Roger that.” We’d walk
off behind some barracks to start doing our stretches. We’d stretch for 15 minutes and we’d just
go back to our barracks for the rest of PT. Even then, our troop was pretty much located right
across from the barracks–– especially where the mortars were located. They were in a separate
building, kind out of the way with no one looking in on us. Our leaders–– I mean, you hear about
these different units. Some units where their leaders are like, “No. Everyone stays till five
regardless of if you have anything going on.” Our platoon, at this point in time, was like, “We
don’t have anything going on? Well, then we’re going to have you guys sit here and do nothing
at this point in time. If we have a class plan, and we can pull the mortars out of the arms room, or
we can get our hands on some maps, [then] we can do some training. But, if we don’t have
anything going on, go back to your rooms.” It’d be like [you’d] come in at 9:30, stay till 11:30.
Then they’d be like, “Go to lunch. [At] 13:00 we’ll have ‘room inspections.’” And as long as
your room was squared away–– your NCO might come by like, “Yeah, you’re good.” Or, they
might not even come by at all. Then you’d be off. Or they’d be like “13:00. Go to the gym.” We
showed up to the gym in case anyone stopped by–– they never did–– and you’d just kind of
hangout, then you’d go off. That lasted for a few months. It was great, but eventually things
changed. (2:03:13).
��
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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GraceM1924V1
Creator
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Grace, Matthew
Date
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2016-02
Title
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Grace, Matthew (Interview transcript and video, part 1), 2016
Description
An account of the resource
After leaving his first unit after his first deployment in the Fall of 2010, Matthew Grace moved to Fort Carson, Colorado where he was assigned to the 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade, 4th Infantry Division. At this point, Grace was a Specialist and was quickly back to his normal routine by January of 2011. As a Specialist, Grace took an interest in helping to train his unit’s new group of Privates, specifically through PT and weaponry. Grace found out that he was leaving for his second deployment in the Summer of 2011 and left for Afghanistan in April of 2012. Grace left later than the rest of his unit to go to dog handling training, but eventually flunked out and returned to his unit in Afghanistan. Once in Afghanistan, Grace’s platoon had the job of specifically ensuring the safety of their Battalion Commander and getting him to wherever he needed to go. This was his platoon’s main task throughout the entire deployment. Grace’s tour was over at the end of November/the beginning of December of 2012. Upon finishing his deployment, Grace returned home to the States and took his block-leave, returning back to work for the remainder of his time with the Army. Grace’s ETS date was January 26, 2014. Grace encountered minimal amounts of reintegration training once resuming life as a civilian. One thing Grace was required to do, was to create a plan for life after reentering society. Grace applied to a couple universities and eventually ended up attending Grand Valley State University where he studied history to eventually get his PhD and become a professor. As a whole, Grace believes that his time in the Army plays a big role in his life and states that he would not be as successful as he is without it.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Afghan War, 2001-2021—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b83d3ae18033793c6be8b898f1760b9f.mp4
d99165c2ec14daffb718caf6c1096bc4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a276d74534a1f03c21aeea3013217bc.pdf
08d286ee55786900d662dcaadefde726
PDF Text
Text
Erickson, Floyd
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Floyd Erickson
Length of Interview: (1:15:24)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Floyd Erickson of Lansing, Michigan. The
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Mr. Erickson, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with,
where and when were you born?”
I was born in Gwinn, Michigan–– that’s in the U.P. It’s a little town 18-miles south of
Marquette. It’s a mining town.
Interviewer: “Now, what year were you born?”
I was born in 1922.
Interviewer: “Now did you grow up in Gwinn or did you move around?”
I grew up in Gwinn and I went to Detroit after I graduated from high school in Gwinn and made
airplane parts in Detroit.
Interviewer: “To back up a little bit, what did your father do for a living?”
Well, he was a lumbering man. He had a lumber camp with six/seven lumberjacks and after that
he became a fire warden and game warden. He helped a game warden.
Interviewer: “Did he have trouble making a living during the depression?”
In the early thirties it was really rough. I remember dad as being–– I’m the oldest of 12, so I
remember that very vividly. It was really rough back in those years. ‘33/’34, a lot in there.
(2:00).
�Interviewer: “So what would he do? I mean, was he able to keep his lumber camp or did he
have to sell it?”
Well, he kept it till a point [where] it wasn’t enough profit for him. So, he got a good job with the
state of Michigan. He had a break, it was in World War I. And they sent–– back in those days,
about 1935. My dad became a fire warden there and he got $500 from the state department for
being in World War I. He made 25 trips across the Atlantic in the Navy, hauling troops over to
England in World War I.
Interviewer: “Was this sort of the war ‘bonus’ or––”
It was a bonus. And he bought a car [for] $495. I guess he had five dollars left. Anyway, he had
to have that car for his job.
Interviewer: “Now, when did you finish high school?”
I finished high school in ‘41. They held me back one year because the teacher said I was too
bashful–– withdrawn, you know? That convinced my mother so they held me back for one year.
Interviewer: “So you finish in ‘41, and is it at that point you go, right away, down to Detroit
to work?”
Pretty much, yes. In fact, it was a matter of a couple months and I was down there. I had a good
job and my uncle and aunt helped me out, get started. (4:15).
Interviewer: “Now where were you working? Or what company were you working for?”
I was with [the] Excel company making airplane parts.
Interviewer: “Were you doing that when Pearl Harbor happened?”
I was coming out of Fox Theater [in] downtown Detroit and they were selling extras: “Japanese
bombed Pearl Harbor.” So that was–– I knew I would eventually be on. By the way, I was very
proud to serve my country–– very proud.
Interviewer: “Before Pearl Harbor happened, had you been paying attention to the news?
Were you aware of the war in Europe and that kind of thing?”
Oh, yes. I kept up with things pretty well. I knew that time was running out for me as far as––
well I wanted to serve, so. Anyway, the government kind of helped my folks out there for a
while, so I got off to a good start.
�Interviewer: “The job that you had–– some defense jobs came with deferments, where you
could have stayed if you wanted to.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Now, did your job have a deferment?”
They tried to make you think that and I said no. I [was] going back home and I [knew] I was
going to be drafted. So, I didn’t know if they could stop me or not, but they didn’t hold me back.
Interviewer: “So you basically chose to leave the job?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “And go back home. Now, were you helping your family at that point?”
At that period, I worked for my dad because he was the foreman on what they called outside of
the mine–– on the ground. He wasn’t underground, he was a foreman on the surface. And the
[something] came up and it was crushed and it was hauled out on trestles and dropped 30-feet
below and loaded up from there into big trucks. Well, trucks were down below–– they were
being filled up, actually. They hauled that stuff to Marquette and shipped out to Detroit,
Pittsburgh, places like that. (6:56).
Interviewer: “So this was iron-ore?”
Iron-ore.
Interviewer: “And what was your job there?”
I was an oiler. I oiled all the spindles that the cable ran on, you know, to pull the cars out onto
the trestles. So, I had to see that that was done.
Interviewer: “And how long did you spend doing that?”
A very short time length, maybe three months.
Interviewer: “At what point did you get a draft notice?”
I got a draft notice in December of ‘42.
�Interviewer: “So basically, it’s a year after Pearl Harbor essentially. So you were in Detroit
for a while and then you were back home for a while.”
Almost exactly a year.
Interviewer: “And then when did you actually report for duty?”
Then I reported for duty–– it was like the first of February, somewhere around there.
Interviewer: “Now where did you report to first?”
Fort Sheridan in Illinois.
Interviewer: “Was that just processing?”
That’s all, yes.
Interviewer: “So where did they send you for basic training?”
Camp Roberts in California.
Interviewer: “And how did they get you to Camp Roberts?”
Train. Trains kept things running.
Interviewer: “Do you remember anything about that train ride?”
Oh, yes. I remember I had never seen any part of the country like that at that point. But yes, it
was very, very good. (8:54)
Interviewer: “How long did it take to get out there?”
I’d say about three-to-four days.
Interviewer: “And did you spend much time sort-of sitting around on sidings, getting out of
the way of other trains?”
Yeah. We had to get out of the way. The process of feeding all these countries was–– and we
were the ones feeding all these countries that were our Allies.
�Interviewer: “Especially the British, at that point.”
Oh my gosh–– and Russia. We furnished practically all of our stuff, almost–– it seemed like.
Interviewer: “They made certain things and then we made a lot of other things for them.
But yeah, we gave a huge amount of stuff.”
Oh my gosh. We made tanks–– well they were making [them] in Detroit [in] two minutes on the
line, a tank was coming out.
Interviewer: “So you go to Camp Roberts, and where in California is that or what city/town
is it close to?”
Camp Roberts is practically on the coast. It’s north of L.A., between San Francisco and L.A.
Interviewer: “What did the basic training consist of?”
Well, it consisted of crawling on your body and on your knees and stuff like that–– and rifle
training. We went under the place where they shot machine guns over the top of your body and
you had to make your way through this barbed-wire thing, and all that kind of stuff. (10:55).
Interviewer: “And did you also get taught to obey orders and that kind of thing?”
Oh, yes. Yeah. We were told what we were to do by a big Sergent up from Oregon. He was very
good. Tough–– but he was tough for your good.
Interviewer: “Now, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to being in the Army?”
I had had a taste of the Army back in 1938. [I] went for one month of training for us young guys
in high school. Citizens Military Training–– that’s what they called it.
Interviewer: “So you knew a little bit about marching––”
I knew something about the service before I got in it.
Interviewer: “Now, how long did the basic training last? Or, how long were you at Camp
Roberts?”
That was only about three months.
�Interviewer: “And what happened to you after that?”
They took us–– we were all [northern guys]–– out of Montana, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota,
Washington, Dakotas. We were all left–– kind of a bunch. They wanted guys to work in the cold
weather.
Interviewer: “So you had a group that was all training together and then as a group, you all
went together. Where do they send you to?”
A lot of us got into the 87th part of the Infantry Regiment. That was ⅓ of the 10th Mountain
Division. (12:59).
Interviewer: “And it was sort of the original mountain regiment that the government
formed, and then they added two more to make it a division. Now, where did you train with
them? What base were you at?”
We ended up at Kiska.
Interviewer: “Did you stop anywhere between Camp Roberts and Kiska?”
Not very much. No.
Interviewer: “So you didn’t go to Fort Lewis first?”
So they took us there and we had to climb the volcano on Kiska. You know, like two steps
forward and one back. It was horrible climbing. Climbing right–– no beach. Boy, that was a
hairy landing on that volcano. (14:17).
Interviewer: “So you’re going in a landing craft and you’re right there, and you’re going up
a rock face.”
Right. The volcanoes were right, straight into the water. No beach at all.
Interviewer: “Had you had any mountain climbing training before you got there?”
Very, very little up to that point.
Interviewer: “So you joined the regiment after it was formed––”
�We were five-months on Kiska, training all the time, climbing and shooting across the bay at
targets at the ships, and held before we landed there.
Interviewer: “Now, just to backup a little bit–– you talked about landing at Kiska in the
Aleutian Island and the Japanese, in the middle of 1942, had occupied two islands. They
occupied Attu and Kiska. Attu, some American units landed on and had to fight to capture
and then they were planning on landing on Kiska. Now, were you with the group that was
slated to land on Kiska initially?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “What were you expecting to find when you landed?”
Well, we were supposed to meet something like 6,000 Japanese, but for whatever reason they
pulled out about ten-days before we got there.
Interviewer: “So you land and all of a sudden there’s nobody shooting at you.”
Right. We found out after three-days. You couldn’t see your hand in front of your face because
of the fog, you know, up there. It was just terrible the amount of fog in the summertime. That
cleared up before we left. (16:13).
Interviewer: “So by the time you left Kiska, you now had a lot of practice with mountain
climbing.”
Oh, yes. We developed a lot there for the five-months we were on that island.
Interviewer: “Now, what were the temperatures like? How warm or cold––”
The temperatures there were–– very on the warm-side. [When] we left there, it was snowing a
little bit, December 1. December 25, I was on my folks front porch for four-days. It seemed like
it was going all the time. The last 50-miles I bummed a man that brought me from Escanaba to
Gwinn. Boy, I will never forget that. I told the man to let me out right [there], my dad’s car [was]
in front of the drugstore. I got out, I loaded my duffel bag in the backseat, and my brother–– he
was about 16 at that time–– and he came out and he said, “What the hell is going on?” So, he
took me home and put me on the front porch and said, “I’ll go around and tell mom.” I was like,
“What’s going on here?” That was Christmas Day 1943. And she almost fainted when–– she
didn’t know I was even in the country. I saw and said I would never do that to my mother again.
(18:15).
�Interviewer: “So you get just a few days at home, and then where do you go back to then?”
Back to Camp Hale, Colorado. Camp Carson first, but Camp Hale–– they were building it. They
had enough room for some of us, so we were taken in a little bit. Before I left there, there were
over 13,000 of us–– 10th Mountain. We had blended in with the 85th, 86th, and we were the
87th.
Interviewer: “So you got all 3 regiments for the division now together.”
So we worked together there at Camp Hale for a few months.
Interviewer: “Now, did they take any of the guys out of the 87th and put them in the other
regiments?”
Yes. There were a lot of terrific skiers in my outfit–– the best in the world. Some of our
Norwegian Suites and Finland. And I knew some of them from [somewhere]. [Somewhere] is
where there were a lot of good skiers. There were all jumpers for the most part because that’s
what we did up there. There’s three big ski jumps up there: Iron Mountain and there’s one over
by Ironwood on the Wisconsin border, and the one in [somewhere]. They were all capable of 300
feet or more. (20:09).
Interviewer: “As a kid then, had you done a lot of skiing?”
Well, my dad made my first skis when I was four years old. I got a picture someplace around
[here].
Interviewer: “And did you do mostly cross-country or were you doing downhill?”
Cross-country. Cross-country to the places where we made jumps.
Interviewer: “So you were used to that kind of stuff already.”
Oh, yeah. I think about that now because we got snow–– somewhat mules, now. If we’d had a
broken leg or something, it was a mile/mile-and-a-half to the main road. That would have been
tough for three young kids. Boy, I’ll tell you––
Interviewer: “So you did all of that stuff when you were a kid and didn’t really think about
it.”
You don’t think about that then, but I think about it now. We would have been [in] real trouble.
�Interviewer: “Now, what kind of job or assignment do you have with the 87th?”
Towards the end of the war, I had moved into a Staff Sergeant job because the guy got hit and
you’d just replace––
Interviewer: “But before that–– I guess, when you were back there at Camp Hale. What was
your job? Were you just a rifleman or something else?”
Yeah. I was a machine gunner there.
Interviewer: “And what company were you serving in?”
That was Company 87.
Interviewer: “Was that a weapons company? So they had machine guns and mortars?’
Machine guns and rifles. We had some rifles–– two small rifles and a Carbine, the small one.
Recently, I had a chance to handle these guns–– had a picture taken with ‘em. I can’t get over
how heavy they are. They feel twice as heavy as back then. (22:32).
Interviewer: “Well, you are 96 years old.”
Well, of course I was around 170 pounds. Now I’m lucky if I’m 150.
Interviewer: “An M1, I think, is about eight-pounds.”
Oh my gosh. I’m telling you–– the difference. Of course, the machine guns, but that was a twoman job. [It] broke down into two pieces.
Interviewer: “Now, was that a 30-caliber machine gun?”
We’re talking about 100 pounds a piece, you know? That there was a lot of load.
Interviewer: “Was this an air-cooled machine gun or a water-cooled machine gun?”
Water-cooled.
Interviewer: “So that’s got the big tube. That would be why you had that weight. So, you are
training now for–– so you spend a fair amount of 1944 then training. Do you remember
where you were when the D-Day landing took place? In June of ‘44, where were you?”
�We didn’t go to Italy until December of ‘44. We were training very, very hard. Rock climbing,
cross-country, downhill––
Interviewer: “So you really spent what wasn’t just a few months then at Camp Hale. You
were there for the better part of a year.”
Yeah. Camp Hale was a good place for training, but in the mountains 20 below, 30 below, was
nothing. And then sleeping out in the open. I remember Easter morning 1944, six-inches of snow
on my sleeping bag. My boots were on my chest to keep them from freezing down below. Two
pairs of socks on down below. I’m telling you, boy, that was–– that there separated the men from
the boys. We lost a couple hundred guys–– they went south. [It] was not for them. (25:03).
Interviewer: “Did you have a lot of frostbite cases and things like that?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did you also have people with broken bones and things like that? Did you
have accidents in training where people would get hurt?”
Well, we didn’t have too many like that in training. There were a few, yes, but not–– when you
realize there were thousands of men, you know? And we all had to go through those clubs
bouncing off–– 10,000 feet training in that area on the mountain side.
Interviewer: “Were there people who had trouble with the altitude? If you got too high?”
Yeah. You had to adapt to that too.
Interviewer: “Now, what kind of accommodations did you have at Camp Hale? Did they
build barracks for you?”
They built fine barracks–– warm, you know–– but it took a while to get them fully completed.
We were in them before they were even completed. That there made some pretty good laughs
along the way. (26:27).
Interviewer: “So were you sleeping in barracks that didn’t have roofs on them or didn’t
have walls on them?”
Yeah. Stuff like that–– didn’t have doors. Mountain side doors were on, of course.
�Interviewer: “When you were at Camp Hale, what did you do when you were off duty––
when you weren’t training. Did they have entertainment or could you go into town?”
Yes. We had places to go–– by train–– to Denver, Colorado Springs, Grand Junction. And then
the highest town in the U.S.A. I can’t spit it out right now, but I think it starts with an M.
Interviewer: “So you’ve gone to different places in Colorado.”
[It] was only 12-miles from Camp.
Interviewer: “Did you go to the ski resorts and places like that?”
Yeah. Some guys skied all of the time–– they were just nuts about skiing. We still had watering
holes, you know. One right there in the [something]. That bar was the Silver Dollar Bar in that
town. Twelve miles out at 12,000 feet. We were at 9,600 feet at Camp Hale. And that was
something I’ll just never forget–– that watering hole there. What a bar. I was there last summer.
(28:23).
Interviewer: “Okay–– it’s still there.”
My nephew–– he schemed with some of my buddies, 10th Mountain Guys, on Cooper Hill.
That’s where we trained, right at the National Divide. That’s where the water runs west––
Interviewer: “Yeah. Continental divide.”
That’s where our big present with 999 names on it. My best buddy is on there–– [he’s] number
eleven.
Interviewer: “So those were the men that were killed in action.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Now, as 1944 went on, did you start to wonder if you were ever going to get
into the war?”
We did. And we were about ready to lose our mountain part of our logo and finally, Marshall got
with Clark and Clark wanted us right now.
Interviewer: “And Clark was Mark Clark, so that’s the Commander of the Fifth Army in
Italy.”
�Italy, right.
Interviewer: “So this is now late 1944 and we’re still kind of bogged down in the Apennines
north of Rome.”
Some of us were out and were already moving in December. They were in foxholes in January.
Interviewer: “Now, tell us about your trip to Europe. You go from Camp Hale and then
where do you go?”
We got on the train and I remember going through–– [I] forgot. [We] went down to Camp Swift
and that’s where we almost lost our mountain logo.
Interviewer: “And where is Camp Swift?”
It’s close to Austin, Texas. (30:27).
Interviewer: “So you go to Texas–– and maybe they were going to convert you into a regular
division.”
Right. And boy, we didn’t want that. We had all of the best skiers in the country sitting there,
sweating it out. Clark says, “Come on. I need you right now.”
Interviewer: “So from Camp Swift, where do you go?”
[From] Camp Swift we went to Newport.
Interviewer: “So Virginia?”
Yep. Red Skelton was there, “Give ‘em hell boys. Give ‘em hell.” We were up on this big ship.
Interviewer: “So you got a send-off from a celebrity. Now, what kind of ship were you on?”
We were on the biggest ship that America had. America was the name of the ship.
Interviewer: “So it’s a big ocean liner?”
Big ocean liner converted into a troop ship.
Interviewer: “And did the ship sail by itself or were you in a convoy?”
�Nope. It was all by itself. It was able to go fast enough, so they figured we stood a good chance
of getting there with it.
Interviewer: “So the U-Boats couldn’t catch you.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So, where do you land then in Europe?”
We landed at the bottom of the boot–– Naples.
Interviewer: “I guess you had to go through the Straits of Gibraltar to get there. Did you see
that?”
Yeah. We had one guy that got off to get into Naples. He lost control, so we had to fish him out
of the water. So, he got off to a rough start. (32:31).
Interviewer: “Did you stay in Naples or did you just move right out?”
No, we moved right out–– north. We were side-railed quite a few times because of traffic [going]
south. Yeah. There were a lot of troops there. Troops that had migrated north from Africa.
Interviewer: “So you’ve got wounded men coming back and you’ve got supplies going back–
– but they were using the Italian railroads by then.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So, you get to go by train part of the way?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Now, you were arriving there in January or early February?”
We were arriving there in January and some of our men were in foxholes already [to] relieve
Brazilian troops. So, we had to have communications with them and had to have special people
to bring us together, you know. We didn’t know what they were doing and in a way, that
transition took a while. (34:11).
Interviewer: “What impression did you have of the Brazilians?”
�Well, I guess they were doing a good job. They didn’t have any combat. But, the 92nd Division–
– which was all black, except for officers. There were a lot of white officers in the 92nd. They
had been replaced on [Mount Belvedere.]. So we were up front–– the 10th Mountain Division––
to take Mount Belvedere the first day. It wasn’t easy–– our whites were floating around out in
the ocean and the Atlantic ocean never got to us–– our whites.
Interviewer: “Oh, your white uniform. So, your snow uniforms?”
Yeah. This first mountain had a foot of snow on top. We were there like sore-thumbs the next
day. But [the] place was full of bodies all over the place. And the eastside got the worst of it––
we were on the westside, the 87th. So, we got by a lot better than the two other regiments. They
were on the other side.
Interviewer: “How long have you been in that area on the front lines before you went
forward?”
Maybe a week–– we had to recover. The Germans had been on the mountain off to the left [and]
they could see down where we were assembling and stuff with spy glasses. And we knew that
they were there, so we had been–– the night before–– came up and climbed that mountain from
the opposite side. All night long it took them to get to the top, but they had experts putting in
Tetons and rope in the rocks. Then the soldiers had it a lot easier going up that [mountain] by
pulling themselves. (36:46).
Interviewer: “They had things they could connect their ropes to so they could climb up.”
So, they took care of the mountains–– the guys on top of that mountain. The Germans had maybe
50 men up there–– I don’t know exactly, but they took care of it.
Interviewer: “So, they would have been artillery spotters?”
Yeah. Anyway, that there really worked out good. Then we had a line that came down out there,
so our wounded were shoved down on that line. That worked out beautifully.
Interviewer: “Do you remember going into combat for the first time?”
Oh, yes. We had one Lieutenant that couldn’t make it, and he was our leader. So we were cut-off
for a little bit , but we hooked up with the breville/rental company–– like we always did, you
know. And we hooked up with them and took off.
�Interviewer: “You said your Lieutenant couldn’t make it, did he just not go with you or did
he get hit?”
He came back with us about a week later. [He] said he was fine. He was part Indian, his name
was Richardson. Anyway, he turned out to be a good Lieutenant. (38:22).
Interviewer: “Why was he not with you on that first day?”
He just couldn’t stand it. Too much fire–– machine gun fire, especially.
Interviewer: “So, he did lose his nerve that first time.”
Lots of guys killed–– a lot of guys. We figured we lost somewhere around 200 men.
Interviewer: “So out of the whole regiment?”
Yeah, the whole regiment. And that was about a fifth of what–– because we ended up losing 999.
Interviewer: “And that was out of the whole division in the course of the war. So, a fifth of
the men on that one day?”
Yeah. So out of about 13,000 men we lost 1,000. We had Norwegians with us too–– they were a
part of our hookup there. But, they were very good. They’ve got their own plaque up there right
alongside ours at the National Divide–– a big, grand thing. They lost quite a few men too. But,
they were terrific skiers.
Interviewer: “How long did it take to actually capture Mount Belvedere? Was it one day or
four days?”
We had it in one day, but we were a long way from it–– recovered, you know. To be able to say,
“Well, we took that mountain.” We were about beat-up there. But, we got straightened away and
sailed right on through. Mountains after that were a lot less dependent. (40:27).
Interviewer: “Now, as you’re moving north in Italy, you’re getting closer to the Po Valley I
mean, do the mountains get any lower or smaller?”
Smaller. Yep, definitely smaller.
Interviewer: “Now, how much are you seeing of the Germans themselves? Are they just
firing at you from a distance?”
�They are coming through our lines by the thousands. Just pouring through our lines.
Interviewer: “When did that start happening?”
That started happening, actually, very shortly after Belvedere. [The] Germans could see the
lights.
Interviewer: “Now, these German soldiers who were coming forward, how would they do
that when they’re approaching? How do you know they’re not attacking you?”
Like that.
Interviewer: “And what impression–– what did they look like to you, these German
soldiers?”
They had good clothing. They had no more ammunition–– I thought it was all taken from them.
They’ve been fighting a long time. I mean, three years before World War II they were fighting
already.
Interviewer: “They were fighting since 1939 anyway.”
Yeah. Four years–– yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. They’ve been fighting. They fought in Poland, they fought in France,
Scandinavia and stuff, and then in Russia and so forth.”
They had already been bombing the heck out of Russia. (42:11).
Interviewer: “Now, the ones that you saw–– did they look to be about your age or were they
younger or older?”
For the most part they were older. Because I was only like 22 or 23 at that time. [When] I got out
I was 24.
Interviewer: “Right. But a lot of the American soldiers would have been 19, 20, 21, that kind
of thing. That’s very standard military age. So, these guys are looking a little older than
that. Then, yeah they probably are all veterans. As far as you could tell, were these all
regular Army troops that were surrendering to you?”
Yes. Regular Army troops.
�Interviewer: “You’re not seeing the SS or anything like that?”
There was some SS later that we’d run into, but they were pretty well-beat too.
Interviewer: “So fairly early still in ‘45 the Germans–– even before you get into the Po
Valley–– some of the Germans are already coming over and surrendering to you. Now, as
you go forward and you head into the Po Valley, was that dangerous to do once you can
leave the mountains and go out into the open?”
Yes. There’s a little difference there. You have to be ready to dig a foxhole very quickly. In fact,
this is any time you stop for a while. It was a wise thing to get yourself into [the] ground.
Interviewer: “Because they could see you and then they could start shooting artillery at
you.”
They could put a mortar round like in my buddy's foxhole. He was the first gunner and he had
just cleaned up while 10 or 12 Germans got on a hedgerow. He had gotten to all of them–– him
and his second gunner. It wasn’t two-minutes later they put a mortar shell right in his foxhole
and it gave him a lot of internal injury–– which he died [from]. But, he took care of my buddy.
His leg was almost off–– left leg–– and they said to take care of him first, but he died in the
meantime. (44:48).
Interviewer: “Now, was that a foxhole that was already there?”
That was a foxhole that had dug.
Interviewer: “Now, you got hit at about the same time, didn’t you? I mean, there was a shell
blaster.”
Well, at the time I was a Sergeant. I was probably looking ahead for where we wanted to go.
Being informed by riflemen and rifle officers–– rifle company.
Interviewer: “So, what happened to you when you got hit?”
To me, coming into the Po Valley I was the Sergeant then. And, boy, that was some kind of a
shell that came in right at my feet, you know. And Maddox said that I just lucked out because I
was thoroughly checked and I had no blood on me.
Interviewer: “How close did the shell land to you?”
�They said it was a couple feet from my right foot.
Interviewer: “Did they think the shell went into the dirt a little before it blew up?”
Well, it made a hole. That’s for sure. Obviously, this shrapnel went underneath me because–– I
was blown high enough up so that could happen. But five guys, you know, they got it and they
were all further away than I was by far–– 25 feet away. (46:41).
Interviewer: “So, you’re blown up in the air–– were you knocked unconscious?”
I was 25-minutes out. I couldn’t hear nothing. So I [something], best way I could for a while and
got by. Three hours later, I was able to hear.
Interviewer: “So, you did have some effects from the shock of the blast, but on the whole
you were very lucky.”
Oh, I hope to tell you.
Interviewer: “Now, as you got down into the valley, did the Germans oppose you when you
tried to cross the river or did they just get out of the way?”
Oh, very much so. They had some bursts above our heads, like [says something].
Interviewer: “Like the 88s or?”
Shooting at airplanes and stuff and some of that. But, we were crossing that river–– it’s about
300 feet across there, a big river. We had to get out a couple of times because we were hitting
sandbars. And these sandbars, lasted maybe three/four steps and then 25-feet down. Two of our
men, in my section, [there] were two of them that went down. They walked a little bit too far.
My [minnick]–– I was in charge, if he was hooked up with us. He was a very strong swimmer
and he went down that water. Two of our guys–– packs off their backs, like next thing to a
hundred pounds–– they were saved. He got two Silver Stars for that. (48:44).
Interviewer: “Now, what kind of boats did you have to cross the river with?”
We had [sound] boats. They were rubber and they came up with a couple of those things. But far
to the west, the Germans were still crossing the river. They were having a worse time than we
were, but we didn’t know that, of course.
�Interviewer: “Now, when you were fighting did you get much air support or artillery
support or things like that?”
Oh, yes. We got the cavalry and air power anytime we wanted, and they kept as close to us as
possible. The Air Corps–- that was easy. We would say, “We got a half of a hay-stack out there,
it looks like there’s a machine that is in it–– we should take care of that.” 15 minutes later they
were right there blowing the thing off the map. So, we had full support with the Air Corps and
artillery.
Interviewer: “Now at some point, you got a Bronze Star.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “How did that happen?”
You know, I don’t fully know to this day exactly what they had written up, but evidently I helped
with–– which came natural–– to help with the guy that was in bad shape. I helped to take him
back. They always say it’s “over and above,” you know? I was going to say something about
that. (50:44).
Interviewer: “You were talking about the Po Valley––”
It had to do with the crossing.
Interviewer: “What we were talking about [was] the artillery, the aircraft, and all of that.”
At night now we were traveling a lot because of the flash-ground. And the fact that the Germans
were giving up, so we didn’t have much opposition. So, we were traveling pretty good. We got
into Bologna and then some of the little towns–– Verona–– that’s the big cities. Lots of little
towns, the Italians had all kinds of vino along the way.
Interviewer: “So the Italian people were acting happy to see you.”
Oh, they hated Mussolini something fierce. They hated the Germans because the Germans were
doing horrible things. I gotta tell you. Once, I was sitting in about one of these mountaintops––
maybe the fourth mountaintop, small mountain–– looking down into the valley, out of a foxhole.
And I could see a mile away, an Italian farmer came back to his farm home–– [something] his
farm home–– and he was singing up a storm. An opera song, you know, they love opera music.
He was just as happy as you could get. 24-hours later he had his wife and his two kids with him.
I could see this as if I’m looking at a television screen–– plain as day. The kids got into the house
�before the parents did and all of a sudden, booby traps were going off. Smoke was coming out of
the window. That’s all I know from that point.
Interviewer: “So the Germans blew them up or––”
Before they left that mountain–– across that valley–– they had booby-trapped that house. I don’t
know if the kids were killed or what, because that was, you know, none of our business–– we
were on the move. I’m sure we had medics there after, but the Germans were still on that next
mountain and they had artillery and that was going all of the time. So that was quite a thing to
see, you know. The happiness [and] the sadness the next day. That was hard to take. (54:18).
Interviewer: “Now, once you got across the Po and things got easier at that point. Now,
getting to the very spring and to the very end of the war in April and May.”
Yes. We’re beyond that where I had my close call–– I forgot that story. Anyway, that’s the way
it went to the Po Valley and things change differently there. We finally got to Lake Garda––
which is about 25-miles long, mile-and-a-half wide.
Interviewer: “It’s a big lake up in the mountains.”
Yep. Mussolini had a house on the southeast end of the lake. That was a–– well, when I was
there in 2000 all of the stuff was put back together. The Italians did a fantastic job. Everything
was hardly a brick on top of another brick–– this place was a mess.
Interviewer: “So you saw a lot of war damage in the places that you were going through.”
Horrible, horrible, horrible. We tried to get Mussolini ourselves, but Parson got a hold of him.
They hung him by his heels at a gas station–– his mistress.
Interviewer: “Now for your unit, you’re heading up and you kind of go up and you pass
Lake Garda. You get to Lake Garda, the next thing on your itinerary is a place called
Revo–– was that just a stop along the way?”
There’s a stop on the north end–– Revo, yes. Just beyond that, up and close to Austria and them,
we had captured a German liquor dental. 16 truckloads of booze, I understand. And the General
said the men were going to have it. It’s a tough couple of bottles of booze to each–– I don’t
know. It amounted to a lot of blonde-and-a-half men, I guess. It didn’t take long. He said, “We
still got loaded rifles and you guys are getting drunk. No more of that booze.” So we had 2,000
[something]. And I never drank the booze, I was a beer-drinker. I had [92/10 beers] at the
Leaning Tower of Pisa–– that there was after it all.
�Interviewer: “Now, as the war ends you’re getting close to the Austrian border?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Now, did you encounter–– was there more organized German forces
surrendering at that point?”
Yes. Lots of ‘em. We really pulled the border right there at Lake Garda–– south end. We were
trying to take care of the guys that were escaping on the west side of Lake Garda. Anyway, we
had loaded up by Higgins boat–– way too many men, way too much recruitment. When they
started that boat up, it went down like a piece of lead. [We] lost 25 men right there, just like that.
I think the story is right because that’s the way I got it. And a couple of years ago, they had been
looking at that boat, but they’d left it there with all the dead bodies that are all bones. 25 men we
lost–– a real boulder. (58:49).
Interviewer: “And of course, a mountain lake like that is very deep and very cold. So, once
they go under with their packs, you’re not getting them out. Now, at the end of the war
there are German armies that are trying to retreat south and Americans are chasing from
the north and you’re coming from the south and they’re in between you.”
Yeah. We were taking prisoners by the thousands, all that while. Lots of them would come
through our line of sight. Some of them were making it out on the east side–– north. They were
making it to Austria and I’m sure a few got there, but we had to have a General that was the head
of the crack regiment. I can’t remember his name right now–– very familiar name. He died in a
hole in the mountain–– the road was right through that mountain on up to Revo. He was standing
in one of the openings–– they had to have an opening every every mile maybe. But there’s a lot
of traffic on there–– trucks and stuff, no trains. But, this General’s name just has to come to me.
He was a head with the crack regiment. (1:00:31).
Interviewer: “An American General?”
Yep. An American General. He got killed right there in that opening. Him and his Master
Sergeant. And there’s a plaque right there at Revo in his honor. I can’t spit his name out. He
wanted to get into the 10th Mountain Division for his last month. They had taken his division––
his division had taken quite a pounding, I guess. So, they busted it up and he said [he’ll] go with
the 10th Mountain Division. He wanted to stay in the war.
Interviewer: “Now, did you meet up with the American Seventh Army eventually or did you
not see them?”
�No. Actually, the 10th Mountain got up there into the Alps–– [something] which are a part of the
Alps. Anyway, we had to go back down where Tito was screwing up. He wanted to get a piece of
Italy and so we sat there for three weeks while he was making up his mind about what he was
going to try to do. But, the Italians had taken that away from him in World War I.
Interviewer: “Or at least they had taken it from the Austrians at that point.”
So, we were sitting there waiting.
Interviewer: “So was that at Trieste or thata area? Yeah it was. Now, we’ve gotten into your
story, basically to the end of the war in Europe in the middle of 1945 and your unit wound
up on the end of the Italian/Yugoslavian frontier–– kind of keeping an eye on things for
several months. How did you spend your time while you were in that area?” (1:02:40).
When we were on our way back–– first, going up, we stopped at the Leaning Tower of Pisa. We
could see it from where we were bivouacked. Oddly enough, coming back we did the same
thing. [We] stopped there overnight–– maybe two nights–– before we could get on the rails and
go south.
Interviewer: “But before that though, you were up along the Yugoslavian border.”
Right.
Interviewer: “And you say you stayed there for a while. So, what were you doing while you
were up there?”
Oh, we were just biting time. We had loaded rifles, loaded machine guns all set up and Tito
wanted to make a move while we were there to stop. Anyway, that was about three weeks that
we sat there.
Interviewer: “And then after that they moved you out of there?”
Yes. They moved us out of there–– south. We went to a ski resort–– beautiful. North of the big
city on the west side of Italy–– on the west side of the boot. What’s the name of that city? [The]
biggest city in Italy. (1:04:25).
Interviewer: “Milan?”
Milan–– north of Milan, in the country of Switzerland. We slept between sheets, the foxholes,
mud, you name it. Boy, I’m not kidding you, I couldn’t believe it. A mountain resort, a ski resort.
�We had guys up there at six o’clock in the morning ready to make their run. That’s the kind of
skiers they were. They were nuts–– it’s cold, you know? Which, they were saving between
sheets they got out on. We sat there for about a week, and we could see the girls taking care of
the sheep and cattle in the mountains. It was beautiful, beautiful. And this–– I forget the name of
the resort–– but it was Catholic, you know. They had these little boxes, you know.
Interviewer: “Those shrines.”
Yeah. That was there. Had plenty of vino and beer.
Interviewer: “Did you get to do any more tourism in Italy at that point? I mean, did you get
to go to Venice or Rome or anything like that?”
I’m just trying to think.
Interviewer: “I guess you went to Pisa and Florence is in that area.”
Well, of course in 2000 I went and I was amazed. I couldn’t get over what they had done. They
had just put everything back together just beautifully. (1:06:32).
Interviewer: “So, when did you get orders to go home?”
When we eventually got on the boat down there at the lower end.
Interviewer: “Back in Naples again?”
Naples again. And, we headed west.
Interviewer: “So when was that?”
That was in–– the war was over May 2nd.
Interviewer: “Yeah. In Europe. It’s still going on with Japan until August. Well–– did they
talk about using you in Japan?”
We went back home–– we were supposed to go to New York, but New York was too busy. So,
we went back to the same place.
Interviewer: “So you go back to Newport News and that area.”
�Newport News and [a] train from there on, and back to Camp Carson, Colorado. One furlough
after another. I was told by my first Sergeant, he said, “Erickson, you could stay with us for a
few more months.” He said, “You could kick-up a Tech Sergeant.” I said, “Not worth it. I’m
going home and getting married.” (1:08:10).
Interviewer: “So, when had you gotten engaged?”
We never did get engaged.
Interviewer: “Oh, so you just went home and––”
Went home and got married. I got the picture. And that was a big day, boy.
Interviewer: “Well, did you know her before you went to Europe?”
Yeah. She was my–– we were down here together. I was only one year ahead of her in school
with her brother. That was 1945. She waited three years.
Interviewer: “Did you write to her regularly?”
I wrote to her as much as I could, but she wrote to me about 20 times as much. One time, up by
Kiska, I got over 20 letters at one time. They couldn't catch up to us, I guess, I don’t know. But I
am telling you, it was a great day–– a great feeling. I was so proud of the fact that I was with the
10th Mountain Division. Very proud.
Interviewer: “Now, after you got out of the Army, what did you do? What kind of job did
you get?”
I went into construction. I had done a lot of roofing work with my dad as a kid, when we were
really poor. So, I went through their course–– three-and-a-half years of, one day of school, four
days of on the job training. And benefited very much so. I was in housing, and building big
buildings out at Michigan State–– science building. I remember in the cold winter, hanging
outside doors–– all winter long. Stupid. Anyway, here we were, cold weather outfit, born in the
U.P.. It seemed like everything I did was with the cold weather. After the war I was with this
company and we’re putting up a screw factory here in Lansing–– it was right after the war and I
got a job right, quick like [that], you know. And it was putting these pans up that hooked
together to pour concrete foundations. Just going to clap two of them together like that. [It] sent
me red, straight out on my face in the mud. I was still shell-shocked, you know. I got up and I
was embarrassed and I felt like a mess. But, they understood after a while and there was no
�laughing. It was no laughing matter. That just shows you that what you had to do, you had to do
the best you could. That was to get as low as you can, as quick as you can. (1:12:24).
Interviewer: “Just remember your Army training there.”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Did you stay in the construction business then?”
Yes. I was in that for 60-years. I had a supervisory job, but I didn’t like it very much because I
loved to work with my hands. Especially firming houses–– I love that. I built this thing. [I] was
with my wife and my foot came through the ceiling one day when she was standing right here. I
didn’t have my sub-floor on yet–– it was still overheads and hangers–– and my one foot came
through there. She said, “Floyd, are you alright?” I said, “I guess I am.” I checked out and boy,
we had a laugh. I’m not kidding you, I came downstairs and I swear on my life we had a laugh
for half-an-hour.
Interviewer: “Now, to look back at the time that you spent in the service, what do you think
you took out of that, or what did you learn from it?”
Oh my gosh. What an experience. World War II–– the war was all over, you know. You name it,
war was there. And to be in something that gigantic, it moved me for the rest of my life. I was a
different person when I realized what really took place. When you realize–– since Russia has lost
something like––
Interviewer: “It was at least 20 million and it might’ve been more than that.”
13 million killed.
Interviewer: “Soldiers–– just soldiers.”
And 30 million civilians. They bombed Russia something fierce. I don’t like to say it, but they’re
not good right now, today, you know.
Interviewer: “Not particularly, no.”
Can’t depend on ‘em.
Interviewer: “Well, I tell you, you’ve got a good story. You still tell it well, so thank you very
much for taking the time to share it today.”
�You’re very welcome. I was very happy to be able to do this, as I have done it several times, you
know. (1:15:24).
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
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The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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EricksonF2156V
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Erickson, Floyd H.
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2017-03
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Erickson, Floyd (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Floyd Erickson was born in 1922 in Gwinn, Michigan, a small town in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, 18-miles south of Marquette. Erickson grew up in Gwinn and eventually after graduating high school in 1941, went to Detroit to work in a factory making airplane parts. A year after Pearl Harbor, Erickson moved home to Gwinn because he knew he would be drafted soon. Nearly a year after Pearl Harbor, Erickson reported for duty in February in Fort Sheridan, Illinois. He was then sent to Camp Roberts in California for basic training. It was from here that Erickson was assigned to the 87th Infantry Regiment, part of the 10th Mountain Division. Erickson’s first assignment was to Kiska in Japan. However, after a month he was sent to Camp Hale, Colorado. As 1944 approached, Erickson and his regiment were sent to Italy, where his regiment spent most of their time. Eventually, due to his service and helping when his fellow soldiers were injured, Erickson was awarded a Bronze Star. Quickly after, Erickson received orders to go home as the war was over in Europe in May 1945. Despite offers to move up as a Technical Sergeant, Erickson decided to leave the Army and get married to his wife. Erickson then went into construction where he worked in the industry for over 60 years.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2669d63c5e8e5d2d131d3df48d49e3c8.mp4
bea018231dc0d35c6e0cc2bcef632a30
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ad4d81a552a4135311001bfcebad6b16.pdf
83758bd1981f98a7037d3cadc948d104
PDF Text
Text
DeGroot, Loren
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Cold War
Interviewee’s Name: Loren DeGroot
Length of Interview: (1:12:17)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Loren DeGroot of Grand Rapids, Michigan and
the interviewer in James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay Loren start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with,
where and when were you born?”
I was born here in Grand Rapids, at least that’s what the post office was, but at the time my
parents lived about halfway between Grand Rapids and Rockford, and that was out in the
country. My father built the house in 1928 as a wedding present for my mother, I was born in
1935 and we lived out in the country. Our nearest neighbor was about a mile away and so we
were out there as a– I’m talking about our whole family.
Interviewer: “Right, now were you farming or doing something else?” (1:00)
No, the plot of land where we lived had been plotted out as a development for homes, but 1928 is
historically the prelude to the major–
Interviewer: “The Depression.”
Depression, and my father was a– In the furniture industry and he did a lot of the sawing and that
sort of thing. He worked in Sparta so it was a bit of a drive from where we were to there and we
lived there– My family lived there until after the war in 1945. At that time my parents, and my
mother especially and her sisters, got together and decided that it was time that someone take
care of grandparents who had grown to the point where they needed support. So my parents and
�DeGroot, Loren
grandparents got together and purchased a house in southeast Grand Rapids on Paris Avenue,
and so during my high school years we lived in that place in southeast Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you go to public schools or Christian schools?”
I went to Grand Rapids Central, was there until I graduated from there in 1953 and then that was
the beginning of a change in my history, if you will.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have any connection to the military before you graduated
from high school?”
Personally, no connection but during the war I had many cousins who were in the war, had a
couple fatalities and several– More than two, I don’t know how many anymore, who were
wounded. During that time I became aware of the responsibility individuals had in defending the
freedoms that we enjoy. I was not active in the military at all except for the time beginning when
I was in high school and enlisted in the naval reserve.
Interviewer: “Alright, now why did you do that?” (4:05)
I think there were two factors that influenced me at that point in time, one was that my brother
had just been drafted into the Korean War, the other was that coming out of the time in the
Second World War I had a conviction that it was my responsibility to be available and do what I
could for my country
Interviewer: “Now did you think about it at all in terms of the prospect of actually going
into the service on active duty or were you just going to be in the reserves at that point?”
At that time I was– I remember vividly that my conviction was if our nation went into war it was
my responsibility to do what I could. Therefore my training in the naval reserve was part of what
I would expect to do if we went into active duty and had to defend our nation.
�DeGroot, Loren
Interviewer: “Okay but when you’re doing this you’re not looking at it with an eye towards
a career or anything like that?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay alright while you were still in high school then you joined the reserves.
What did the reserves activity consist of?”
Weekly meetings at the reserves center, down on Monroe Avenue near the river, and then annual
times of active duty which lasted two weeks I believe, and for that we would go to different
places for that time. I remember one time I went to a small ship based in Chicago and there was a
patrol ship and we went to float it around. Drove around Lake Michigan, they had fire control off
on one of the islands up in the north part of Lake Michigan.
Interviewer: “Now why did you choose the Navy rather than another branch?” (6:35)
I really don’t know, I had one cousin who was in the Navy, he was in submarines, but I have
always had a– I’ve always had an interest in the Navy, in ships as I recall– Remember that I
enlisted when I was in high school and prior to that I can recall reading many stories as a
youngster of naval work and I just enjoyed what I read.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now so you’ve gone into the reserves but not really– So you
could be available to serve your country should the country need you but in the meantime
what kind of future did you see for yourself going out of high school? What’d your family
think people would do?”
That changed, I think that at the beginning I really had no future objectives. I just hadn’t
developed those in high school because when I was in high school, as I said earlier, there was
nobody in my family that had any education beyond high school and so it was at that time it was
that I would follow the rest of my family into physical work, and then comes along that time of
the school awards and now I need to start thinking something totally different, and at that time
�DeGroot, Loren
then I began thinking “Well what is there?” And that led me to think that there is a possibility
that I could go into engineering. That happened in my first or my second year at Grand Rapids
Junior College I believe.
Interviewer: “Now let’s back up a little bit because you explained to me off camera the
story about the award ceremony at school but we didn’t record that. So can you tell what
happens when you have your award ceremony near your graduation from high school?”
Prior to the time of the awards assembly, which was the last meeting of the school prior to the
graduation, prior to that I had no intention of looking beyond high school. At the awards
assembly some friends of mine from the football team and I were sitting all together as would be
normal, and we were down in the front of the auditorium and all of the awards went through as
normal. For many schools' recognitions of advancements that have been held in that awards
assembly I was given several awards that I really didn’t know what they were for. One of them I
recall was the highest scoring mathematics student for the advanced mathematics that we were
having. Out of all of that I began to think that because of the John Ball scholarship, which was
the first athletic scholarship given to Grand Rapids Junior College and I received the first one of
those. (11:00) So there’s something historically interesting in all of that as my life has
progressed.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you got now a scholarship so you could go to the junior college.
Alright and then did you play football then at the college?”
I did, I played football for Grand Rapids Central High School but I was not a– I was not a hero.
At the time– Or in my class I should say, Terry Barr is a name that is well remembered, he went
to the University of Michigan then, then he went to the Detroit Lions, he was a great leader. I
was not that kind, I did not expect to be– That when I got my scholarship, went to Grand Rapids
Junior College and that was a new adventure. Grand Rapids Junior College was not what Grand
Rapids [Community] College is today, I remember that we would start with maybe 50 people–
50 individuals for the team but because we played schools such as Western Michigan University,
it was State College then, but we didn’t play the first team we played the second team and that’s
�DeGroot, Loren
kind of rough and by the end of the year things got kind of tough indeed because many of the
people that started, quit. I had the scholarship and I continued and there were I think the last
game that we had in both my first in second years, we had 13 to 14 people that were left. We had
one time in our last game we had one fella that had his arm in a sling, another one that was on
crutches but the coach says he’s gotta have people on the bench so they suited up and there they
were, but we didn’t have any place else to go.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did you continue with your reserve training at this point?”
Yes, I– Throughout my time at junior college we had weekly training classes, a day a week I
think it was, which were down at the naval reserve center and then we finished that. During that
time we also had the active duty for training which was a two week cruise or some other place
that we would go.
Interviewer: “Okay, now at one point did you become interested in becoming an officer or
how did that happen?”
In high school my football coach was Chuck Irwin, tremendous guy he coached me in the game
of football, he found out in fact I think that he was a motivator and getting me the scholarship
that I did and then I found out– Well I knew beforehand but he was a World War II veteran and
he was an officer in the Naval Reserves. He may have influenced me in accepting the officer
training thing in fact I’m certain he was. (15:40) Had a tremendous influence in my life, he led
me in becoming an officer or wanting to become an officer I should say, and so when I had the
opportunity to– From my enlisted status, to move into something that was called reserve officer
training which was a special section of the naval reserve at that time, I gladly took that and that
then led me because I knew nothing about an officer’s position and what the responsibilities
were but it led me to understand that if I was going to serve my country and if I was going to be
in a leadership position I needed to do certain things like the officer training and he influenced
me on accepting that assignment to naval reserve officer training. That then led me to a
commissioning after I had graduated from college, from University of Michigan, and that led me
then to my three year service on a destroyer, operating out of the 2nd Fleet off the coast of– The
�DeGroot, Loren
eastern coast of the United States, operating in eastern Mediterranean during one of the wars they
had over there and then also operating in the Caribbean in the recovery of satellite material
which was just beginning. So we were operating on some exciting historical things.
Interviewer: “Well let’s back up a little bit into the training period. So you’re two years at
the Grand Rapids Junior College, you then go on to Michigan to complete a bachelor’s
degree and– But when you’re in Michigan were you doing reserve officer training or you’re
doing ROTC of some kind there and that was part of what you were describing?”
And when I went to the University of Michigan for my second two years I did not– I was not
attending active duty there. I had gotten married in my junior year and my wife and I moved to
Michigan for my senior year. Now at Michigan, at the time, an engineering bachelor’s degree
was typically a five year course, I could only do it– If I couldn’t do it in four years I couldn’t do
it because we didn’t have enough money and so it was a challenge but I finished it and I had
good marks and one of the people that locally influenced me through that was Dr. Gordon Van
Wylen [Note: Dr. Van Wylen’s interview is in our archive] who had graduated from Hope
College and was my first thermodynamics professor and so I had influences from many places
leading me in God’s path to a certain career.
Interviewer: “Okay, so did you go to Newport, Rhode Island after graduating from
Michigan? Was that your–” (19:43)
Yes from Michigan– After graduating from Michigan I went to my final reserve commitment
which was as an enlisted person, and following that went to officer training in Newport, Rhode
Island, got commissioned there.
Interviewer: “Now what did the officer training program consist of?”
Everything. We had classes in gunnery including torpedoes and that sort of thing, and that led me
to be assigned to the gunnery department when I was assigned to this destroyer in the Atlantic
fleet. In addition other classes, other studies included navigation and because of my interest in
�DeGroot, Loren
mathematics in college I enjoyed the navigation very much because of the complex requirements
of satellites, only at that time there were no satellites there were stars– But using stars to find
your position. So it was– Those were the two major things and they stick out to me because
when I was assigned to the destroyer I had some conditioning in those two areas. That led me to
the mathematics of navigation and it led me to the understanding of the engineering parts of the
mechanics of things.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when was it that you actually went to the destroyer, I mean do
you remember what year it was?”
That would be 1957.
Interviewer: “Okay, that sounds right. Okay so when you join the crew of the destroyer
what kind of reception do you get or what happens when you get there?”
For me it was a very interesting time because here I am boot ensign coming on board the
destroyer and on the destroyer there are several officers who had spent four years at the Naval
Academy. I will forever remember the first time we had our pay, we would– The process was
that all the officers would join in the wardroom and we would be called out alphabetically and
we would receive our pay. (23:15) At that time the pay consisted of either what you had declared
you wanted the money to go to, such as my wife, but also we were paid in $2 bills some of which
I still have but the interesting part that happened on my first pay day was the supply officer, who
was also the financial officer, was looking at his books and came to my name and he stops
talking and then he looks at me and he says “What on Earth?” Well what that was all about was
at that time I had six years of active duty because I was in the naval reserves, all of that applied.
At that point the officers who had gone to the Naval Academy started having a target that they
could have fun with because here I am boot ensign and I’m making more than what a lieutenant
who had been on the ship for a couple years had made. So you can have fun sometimes as long
as you keep your head down and watch out for the flying things.
�DeGroot, Loren
Interviewer: “Okay, now aside from that kind of interesting issue with pay, I mean was this
a good group of officers to work with or did you like some and not others?”
I had no major problems with any of the officers, we were a pretty good team. There were times
at which we had disagreements, I guess that might be normal, but we were all given our
assignments. Mine was in the gunnery department and then there were those in the supply and
those in the electronics and all that sort of thing but our duties were well defined as to what our
responsibilities were and they were accepted. I think it’s important to note that at that point we
were all at the same level. Our ship did not have any, what are called Miss Mustangs, who are
enlisted people who get commissioned and go on a ship. We had none of that, we were all young
inexperienced– Sometimes, when I say inexperienced, some were there for two or three or four
years but none of the big long term people.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have some petty officers or senior NCOs on the ship who
were lifers or guys who’d been there a long time?”
Oh absolutely. I think that on the ship when we deployed we had– Our enlisted crew consisted of
300 plus sailors, all the way from seaman apprentice to chief petty officer and as an officer it
was– As a commissioned officer it was necessary to understand that the senior petty officers are
the ones with the experience and they are the ones that carry out the duties. (27:18) It’s the job of
the commissioned officer to understand what that is and then to make sure that their assignments
are carried out to make sure that the equipment, in my case the guns, the torpedo tubes, the fire
control systems were having reliable maintenance, training, and all the rest of it but the
responsibility for doing that was the chief petty officer. They had what it takes and part of the
chief’s duties really was and is to train the junior officers. That’s an important responsibility
because if the officers are trained properly they will end up in their next command of training
others and so the teamwork comes there and I think that comes back to an analogy of training on
an athletic team, you become a team doing things together.
Interviewer: “Now in talking to the other veterans, especially people out of the Army and
the Marine Corps, they sometimes talk about officers come in out of an academy and they
�DeGroot, Loren
think they know everything and tell other people what to do. Did you see any of that or
were your guys well behaved?”
I think it would be impossible not to have some episodes of that type. I think because of my
background, coming from an uneducated Dutch family as a second generation, I came to the ship
knowing that I didn’t know anything and that I better learn. Not to say that there weren’t times
when I didn’t have a heavy learning experience, understanding what my duties were and not
going over them, but making sure they were done and there’s an interesting training period in
that and that comes sometimes from the more senior officers, like our executive officer, and
other times from our chief petty officer and sometimes not because he was enforcing something
but because I knew that a 1st class petty officer knew what he was doing and I could learn from
him. So I don’t mean to criticize them but I think that by not having any pre-training– Was a
milestone in my life that I didn’t come to a situation on the ship where I had the opportunity, if
you will, to try to tell this 20 year old veteran that here’s what you got to do.
Interviewer: “Alright, do you remember any sort of lessons you had to learn the hard way
or problems you ran into early on?”
Yes, one time I will never forget we came in from an operation in a snow and sleet storm, we
docked alongside– In Newport, Rhode Island which was the home port and the– Our executive
officer came to me after he had walked the deck and he found some fault. (31:53) That there
were some areas that had not been cleaned up very well, there was one which was a hatch that
had a bronze sticker on it and he told me that he wanted me to get the gunnery section out to do
their duty. Well I had a problem with that personally and the way I resolved that was to go into
the gunnery department, get a bucket including some brass cleaner, and go out and doing it
myself. Well, the exec found out about it and we had a brief discussion that lasted about a week
or so but I– Yeah you learn the hard way sometimes.
Interviewer: “Alright, did you just think it wasn’t fair to make your men do this or the job
didn’t really need doing?”
�DeGroot, Loren
My feeling was that making the brass shiny in the middle of a sleet storm was not something that
was– That was needed, period.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now your home port is Newport so on your first cruise where
do you go?”
We went over to the Mediterranean, eastern Mediterranean, at the time there was a civil war in
Lebanon. It was really a civil war between the Mennonite Christians and the–
Interviewer: “The Maronite Christians, I think.”
The Maronite Christians and the– One of the two branches of Islam.
Interviewer: “The Sunni Muslims and the Shia.”
Sunni, and they were battling there. President Eisenhower at the time, this is now 1958, President
Eisenhower decided to send over a full fleet to stand by in case the civil war got out of hand and
now I don’t pretend to understand the politics behind all of that, but we were brought over there.
We had I believe two carriers, couple cruisers, and two squadrons of destroyers, a squadron at
the time being eight ships. The job of the destroyer was to have recovery if there was an accident
of an airplane landing on the carrier or taking off from the carrier, we need to rescue of that. So
our ship control was keeping us maybe 500 yards behind the carrier when things were going on.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when you were on the cruise did you go into port anywhere or
just stay at sea?” (35:30)
It took us I think a week to get over there then it was six weeks before we had our first short–
Going to the shore. So we had quite a bit of time on the ship and a lot of that was training
because this was the first time our ship, and I think most of the other ships in the squadron, had
been on active duty prior to going on sea duty. We had been at the shipyard in Boston and so as a
�DeGroot, Loren
whole crew, officers and enlisted, we were a new group and so there was a lot of training that
was needed in order to come up wartime standards.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so when you did get to go ashore in the Mediterranean, where did
you go?”
The island of Rhodes, which is an island of Greece. At that time my first shore duty was as a
shore patrol officer and that was a rather interesting experience. I had a wonderful chief
boatswain’s mate that came with me and I was under his control really, you don’t tell a chief
boat what to do but he told me and I learned a lot about young sailors, and I think the same for
any of the services. The first time you go ashore after you’ve been at sea for six or eight weeks,
whatever it was, things change completely. Being the, just at the scene– At the time I was an
ensign but yet I was the senior shore patrol officer and at that time we went into Rhodes, I think
there were two of the carriers that were there plus a squadron of destroyers and so forth, so there
were a lot of people and if memory serves me correct it was something like 5000 sailors were on
this small island. The chief told me what was going to happen when it started time for the boats
to start taking the men out to the ships and I didn’t believe him until I saw some of the cases
coming back from being on shore and having the experience of the first time after six to eight
weeks of sea duty, first time of finding what they had been missing. Now you’re wondering what
they were missing.
Interviewer: “Well there are two logical guesses: Alcohol and women.” (39:05)
Yeah there’s the women and there’s the beer and seeming more and more serious. So there were
a lot of people that then came back drunk and trying to control them is a challenge but for me is,
as a junior officer, it led me to understand a lot about human nature and responsibilities of those
that are senior to them and how they can be controlled and I don’t– By control I don’t mean
dictatorial kind of thing I mean togetherness and you went too far with that last drink you had
and now you’re going to do this. It was a good education period for me.
�DeGroot, Loren
Interviewer: “Alright, now did you stay in the Mediterranean then for an extended cruise
or did you go back to base?”
We were in the Mediterranean for, I think six months, yes six months because as we were in the
Mediterranean after we had been at Rhodes we went into Piraeus, Greece which is the seaport for
Athens and it was an interesting and unforgettable time for me because my wife was eight week
pregnant when I left Newport to go on this cruise and that’s why I was expecting a call. Now
four o’clock in the morning that we were entering Piraeus the duty radio men came down, and
they had been looking out for me, he came down and I was– Had just gotten to sleep and he
touched me on the shoulder and told me that I was a father. We were there then for a total of six
months as I think I mentioned, then we came back and we stayed in Newport, Rhode Island and
operated with a 2nd fleet along the east coast doing anti-submarine warfare and gunfire control
and that sort of thing.
Interviewer: “Okay, now were there Soviet subs out there to look for or was this mostly
just practice?”
Yes, there was– We needed to become efficient in the anti-submarine warfare event. Now at the
time, not when we were in the Mediterranean, but we came back and– I’ll get to your question in
a moment but there’s a specific that comes to it. After we came back from the Mediterranean our
home base was switched from Newport, Rhode Island to Mayport, Florida which at the time was
just getting started and our action being in Mayport was often with the anti-submarine warfare
organization down in Key West, and at that time I had been assigned special responsibilities as
ship’s navigator and I had been doing that for several months by that time. (43:35) We were
going from Mayport down to Key West and in getting there we didn’t go way out into the ocean
but we took the closer in and one morning after I had the command and control responsibilities
in the– On the bridge we got a special radio call telling us to make contact with another
destroyer. That other destroyer was closer to Key West, we were about 50 miles away as I recall
it, he had made contact with something but couldn’t identify it but he knew that it was– He
thought that it was a submarine. All of the intelligence was checked out, all of the intelligence
agencies were checked out and it was determined that there was no American submarine in the
�DeGroot, Loren
area. So we were told to go down there and join up with this other destroyer, and protect him and
verify if we could that it was a destroyer, but what happened was that it turned out it was a
destroyer–
Interviewer: “Or a submarine?”
Submarine, I’m sorry submarine, and we came up and we validated with the other destroyer
where this person was. So we were pinging him from two directions on our sonars, nothing could
be done and we found out later that he had run aground on one of the–
Interviewer: “Shoals or reefs or?”
Yeah one of the reefs that were there, and he couldn’t move, they did make contact after some
time– With him and validated that it was a submarine but he wasn’t going to give up anything
and neither was the U.S Navy. So we had a little bit of fun and that lasted for about two weeks I
think. Finally he did give up under certain conditions and that is that he could come up to on the
surface, could not do anything except open all of his upward hatches so they wouldn’t be able to
dive again and we had– We were at battle stations the whole time that we were there. So it was
an exciting time, I have to say that it was a serious time because it could have been a wartime
situation. I was blessed in my Navy career that I was never needed to go into an active combat
situation but we did need to be ready to perform in a combat situation. This was one of them and
in it because I was a navigator I was on the bridge most of the time. (47:45) I didn’t stand– Just
stand watches I was there the whole time and I learned a lot. In that because of the serious nature
of it we had– I’m sorry.
Interviewer: “You said you learned a lot from experience.”
We learned a lot, let it go at that.
�DeGroot, Loren
Interviewer: “Okay, and then you I think also mentioned before that while you were kind
of in the Caribbean in that area you were also involved with, I guess picking up satellite
debris or other things like that.”
We were– At the beginning when we were still in Rhode Island we would come down and there
would be some satellite launches and because of the newness– Now this is the late 50s that we’re
talking about, because we were, as a nation, we’re trying to get into the missile and satellite
assets. There were a lot of accidents that were happening by accidents being that a satellite goes
up but it comes down before it’s supposed to or at the other end a satellite is coming back with
some payload on it and I remember the chimp or the monkey that came down and needed to be
recovered. There was that kind of thing so we got a broad experience and for me personally that
expanded my thinking about engineering, about a career, about the science, about satellites and
all of that. It was an incredible learning period for me and I think that it’s necessary in our
understanding of military operations, we need to understand that there is the probability, I go
beyond possibility, there is the probability that this nation will be in wartime again and we need
to be ready for it or we will not be. So in getting ready for it we need to train in realistic
environments, that becomes difficult but yet we need to buckle up and come to attention on it or
times come when we would never survive it.
Interviewer: “Serious business.”
Yes it is.
Interviewer: “Alright, now how long then did you actually stay on the ship was that till ‘60
or ‘61?” (51:15)
‘60 I think it was in— Well it was three years, I was three years on it.
Interviewer: “Yeah so ‘57 to ‘60, yeah.”
Yeah and I served the full time of my active duty on the ship.
�DeGroot, Loren
Interviewer: “Right, now while you were in the Caribbean and that’s around the point
when things are getting pretty interesting in Cuba. You haven’t gotten to the missile crisis
yet and Castro hasn’t fully taken over but it’s starting to happen then. Did you ever have
any missions that in any way related to what was going on there or you just follow your
normal routine?”
Castro in 1958 was just beginning to achieve the things that he had been working on for a long
time. He had at that time established his army, if you will, at the Gitmo area that is Guantanamo
Bay, and we were at Gitmo which is still a major training center for the U.S Navy, that’s where
we did our pre-deployment training. We came to understand that we were in a very delicate place
at that time, we were there later, the Bay of Pigs happened. Yes, we got involved in some of the
difficulties that were going on.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright are there other particular memories that you’ve got from the
active duty time on the ship that kind of stand out for you that you haven’t brought into
the story yet?”
I’m not sure if I have said this but one of the absolutely major things that happened to me was
when we were over in the Mediterranean and our commanding officer called me when I was on
the bridge one afternoon, said he wanted to see me in his sea cabin when I got off watch. So I did
and he told me that he’d been looking at my papers and found that I had a good record as a
navigator or doing navigation things and that my time in school was good in mathematics and he
said he had a problem on the ship he needed to– He needed a new navigator. (54:28) On a
destroyer the position of a navigator is usually of the executive officer who was a lieutenant
commander. At the time I was lieutenant J.G and he said that he wants me to– That if I would
accept the position he would certify me as navigator on the ship, and I’m just sitting there with
my mind blowing because of what he wants me to do. I accepted that thankfully and started
understanding more about what navigation is all about. When you’re standing up three times a
day morning stars, noon, sunline, and evening stars and you’ve got your sextant and a watch and
you start then making a measurement. You’ve got a quartermaster helping you with the timing
�DeGroot, Loren
but you get that information then you go down to the chart room and you go through the
mathematics and say “We are here.” Interesting, my interest in it expanded from just doing the
navigation for the ship of here we are but from understanding the physics of a satellite– Of a star,
I’m sorry. The physics of a star and in order to understand the physics of a star is the same as
understand the physics of a satellite because they are rotating, and all of that gave me an
incredible background for what became my career job after I was out of the Navy and that was
that there was something called GPS that was coming about and GPS was a satellite and it had a
special transmitter on it but the whole idea of it was to do positioning of vehicles on the ground.
Well at the time I was working for Rockwell International in Cedar Rapids, Iowa and we got in a
contract to develop the radio equipment for the satellite reception to drive the displays that were
on submarines and aircraft and trucks and tanks and anything and everything, man power is
included in that. I was quite surprised we were in a four company competition for developing
and producing the first GPS user equipment. User equipment are like the radio in the car and so
forth and so on. Now it wasn’t having a GPS set in the watch as it is today, our first satellite
receiver and processor was probably as half as big as this wall behind me. I at that point came to
understand more about satellites because of what I had learned in the Navy. Amazing
understanding of what can be done with satellites, and I’m sorry Jim I just lost completely the
train of thought.
Interviewer: “Well you mentioned that your company was in the competition with four
other four other companies. Was your company the one that managed to do it?” (59:05)
Yes we made the– We won the competition, there were four companies in the competition for
the end result. There were four different phases of that and one by one they got out of there and
we stayed in as the only one. The thing I wanted to mention a moment ago was the use of the
satellites, now these satellites and the user equipment was available– Our use equipment was
available when the Iraq-Kuwait war began and there is a tremendous story in the first time use of
GPS in a combat situation. My understanding is that it is not talked about much– Was not talked
about much, but GPS equipment from our company was deployed to that combat team that was
in Saudi Arabia that made what I understand was called a left hook. It came up around in Saudi
Arabia and came up behind the Kuwaitis–
�DeGroot, Loren
Interviewer: “Or the Iraqis yeah.”
The Iraqis who were expecting the combat to come in from the ocean. Well all of that was made
possible because we had developed the user equipment and learning that has been a very major
milestone for me because it was my team. I say “my team” it was the team that I had the
privilege of leading that made that equipment available.
Interviewer: “At this point our tape is about up so we’re gonna– Okay alright, we are
restarting here. Alright so basically we’ve now kind of gotten through your active duty
Navy career and then made the connection to your kind of major accomplishment,
professional life as an engineer helping to design the first functional GPS systems. To fill in
a little bit in between when you left active duty did you stay in the naval reserve for a
while?”
No I didn’t, active naval reserve no.
Interviewer: “But inactive– Was there an inactive reserve?” (1:01:45)
I was in the inactive reserve from the time I completed my active duty on the ship. I went back to
Michigan for my master’s degree, as I said, but there was no reserve organization in that area so
they put me in the inactive reserve and I was in the inactive reserve until– I think it was 14 years
after the time I went in.
Interviewer: “Alright, but in the meantime there’s no idea that, you know you have to get
called up for Vietnam or anything like that.”
I was very concerned on two occasions, one of them was the Bay of Pigs. As I said I was a
navigator, when we were in the Mediterranean one day we got special orders to go south of
Puerto Rico to a specified area and do some mapping of the shoreline, because of that I had
special clearances on what was happening and then when the Bay of Pigs– I heard when we were
�DeGroot, Loren
watching on our small television set, the Bay of Pigs was happening and there was no telling
where we were going and I was quite concerned that I might be called up. The second was
during the–
Interviewer: “Cuban Missile Crisis?”
Yes, the Missile Crisis right because of the same thing it was in an area in which we had been
operating and which I as a navigator had become familiar with a lot of things, because of what
they were at the time and my being involved in them I have not spoken of any of that. Now I
think, what? 50 year laters, I haven’t taken off the classification but I think somebody has, but
we were there. I was concerned about getting called up but I was ready for it if it happened and I
go back to the thing that motivated me in the first place. If my nation– If your nation is attacked
because I have had some experience that proved effective I need to be able and willing to meet
those commitments of a citizen of this nation.
Interviewer: “Alright, now I think you’ve probably engaged this pretty well already but if
you kind of look back at your naval experience, overall what do you think you took out of it
or how did it affect you? You got some practical experience obviously with navigation and
satellites.”
Why don’t you ask an easy question? This isn’t being recorded now is it?
Interviewer: “Sure.” (1:05:25)
What did I take away from it? I think I took away from it, seriously now, I’m sure I took away
from it the responsibilities that each of us have as a citizen of this country. That responsibility is
to be sensitive to what others are trying to do to us, that responsibility is that we as a nation must
be prepared to face the very difficult– And when I say face them I mean get to the bottom of
what the cause of the problem is, and very seriously now, I am terribly concerned that we as a
nation are not able to face the current crises that we see in the world. I can’t point to any single
point that I would say “It’s your responsibility.” or yours, what you’re doing here but I think that
trying to pull the whole story together in answer to your question I would say that the thing that I
�DeGroot, Loren
came away with was an understanding of the responsibilities of leadership. In my term in the
Navy whether it was in Rhode Island or Florida or Mediterranean or south Pacific, I knew that it
was my responsibility to do this and this, and in doing that my original commitment to the Navy
that I mentioned at the very beginning with my cousins having been in World War II and so
forth, that when I came out of the Navy I had been trained that I have a responsibility. I can’t just
block it off, in fact today I am very concerned of what we as a nation are doing. I am not 100%
anymore, I don’t know what percentage it is but I do have a problem. Here’s part of my solution
to the problem, but that doesn’t me that it’s not my responsibility to try to do what I can and as
a– We didn’t talk about it earlier but I have a religious conviction that I am responsible and
through that my responsibility to my God is to provide as much leadership as I can and in that,
even as an 80 plus year old I am responsible. Scripture tells me that there is nothing that says it’s
time to retire from your commitments as a believer. I have had many people who have said I
can’t do that I’m too old. No, there’s no place in scripture that says that that comes up. I can’t do
very much, I’m probably 10% left of– I hope, of where I’ve been but I am never too old to
become involved in the leadership position. What is the leadership position when you’re that
old? It can come down to something as powerful as prayer and we need to commit ourselves to
those things because God has a plan. Jeremiah told us when he said in Jeremiah 29:11 “I have a
plan for you’ says the Lord ‘to prosper you, to protect you, to lead you, to guide you.” If you do
that here’s your reward, and then if you look a few verses more you get to what happens if you
don’t and that is if you don’t do that Nebuchadnezzar will come down and take care of you.
(1:11:30) That was verified when Nebuchadnezzar did that and took the nation of Israel prisoner
for 77 years, or 70 years I forget which.
Interviewer: “They’re still arguing about that one.”
Yes, but the point is that we have a lifetime commitment and that’s where I tie the things
together.
Interviewer: “Alright, well I think that makes a pretty good place to conclude so thank you
very much for taking the time to share your story today.”
�DeGroot, Loren
Well this has been wonderful, I couldn’t understand that you have asked these questions many
times.
Interviewer: “And I never get the same answer.”
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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DeGrootL2108V
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DeGroot, Loren
Date
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2017-03
Title
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DeGroot, Loren (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Loren DeGroot was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1935. While he was still in high school, he enlisted in the Naval Reserves. After he graduated high school in 1953, he began classes as Grand Rapids Junior College and then went to the University of Michigan to finish his bachelor’s in engineering. After graduating, he went to officer training in Newport, Rhode Island. In 1957, he joined the crew of a destroyer ship. His first cruise was to the Mediterranean, where he served as a shore patrol officer on the island of Rhodes in Greece. He then went to Piraeus, Greece and spent a total of six months in the Mediterranean before going back to Newport. His home base was then switched to Mayport, Florida where he served as ship’s navigator. After finishing serving his active duty on the ship in 1960, DeGroot joined the inactive Naval Reserve and stayed in it for 14 years. He went back to the University of Michigan to finish his master’s degree.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5dc96ed27bb20ae2886f4ea0d48ff227.mp4
78ca1c3b6f8ca2b0ea7e259faf00fd44
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fcbe507ea9eef31e9e4fc06ccdc76251.pdf
d9d85dc95e656b1b4573ce6a7fa403e2
PDF Text
Text
Ziebart, Kenneth
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Korean War
Interviewee’s Name: Kenneth Ziebart
Length of Interview: (43:49)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Kenneth Ziebart of St. Joseph, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay start us off with some background on yourself to begin with, where and
when were you born?”
I was born on May 23, 1928.
Interviewer: “And where were you born?”
In St. Joseph, Michigan.
Interviewer: “Okay, so did you grow up there?” (00:28)
I grew up in town till I was about seven years old and then we moved to a farm about six miles
out of town.
Interviewer: “Okay, now had your family been farmers all along or did your father lose his
job in the 30s or what happened?”
Well he lost his job I think in the 30s but he did have another job besides the thing but my
mother was a farmer and her family she comes from a farming family.
Off camera voice: “He was a butcher.”
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Interviewer: “Alright now you were still pretty young then but do you remember hearing
about Pearl Harbor?”
Definitely.
Interviewer: “Okay, how did you learn about it?”
Well I was– Had the radio on I was listening to the football game, now according to the things
that said that it was the Bears were playing New York Giants. I differ that I said they– I would
say they were playing the Green Bay Packers that day but I could be wrong.
Interviewer: “Okay, but you were listening to the Bears game?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so it comes on there, now–”
They stopped the program and announce that Pearl Harbor–
Interviewer: “Okay yeah, now did the start of the war affect things very much in your
community?” (2:15)
Oh definitely I think so.
Interviewer: “In what ways?”
Factories had to change there from making washing machines to making ammunition,
(untelligible) and stuff.
Interviewer: “And did you have rationing and that kind of thing?”
�Ziebart, Kenneth
What?
Interviewer: “Was there rationing?”
Oh definitely rationing yes, not so much for the farmers but for city people I think it was pretty–
Yeah, hard on them.
Interviewer: “Yeah cause you’ve got more gas because you were farmers.”
Yes we got– We received more gas.
Interviewer: “And you could grow your own food, at least some of it so–”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay now did you, as the war– As World War II dragged on did you
think it might last long enough for you to get into it?” (3:10)
Well I didn’t– Actually I went through 8th grade and then decided to farm. I didn’t go any
further in my education so I don’t think I– Well I know, I remember my 8th grade teachers
telling me that we would be in the Army in four years from whenever it was but it didn’t happen
exactly that way.
Interviewer: “At least not exactly that way, yet you do eventually wind up in the Army. So
how did that happen?”
Well I– When I was 18 I reported to the thing and I evidently missed the final draft of World
War II. So I– But they kept the information, you know from there and I think I wasn’t in the first
group that they was– Picked from my– Our area but I was in the second group for the Korean
war.
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Interviewer: “Alright, now cause the Korean war– Cause you registered for the draft so
you’re eligible for a certain number of years, and during that time period the Korean war
starts, it was in June of 1950. So when did you get drafted?”
I got drafted in 1950, the 17th of November.
Interviewer: “Right, yeah so and at that point they now need a lot more men in the Army
and so the draft gets expanded and they find you. Okay, where did you go for basic
training?”
Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri.
Interviewer: “Alright and what was that like?”
Well I kind of didn’t mind it because I could get a ride home on the weekends if we got passes
and stuff. I know that we took basic training and I know that our basic training was over at
Christmas time.
Interviewer: “So that was only about six weeks?” (5:36)
Six weeks, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what did the basic training consist of?”
Infantry training basically, it was all infantry type things.
Interviewer: “Well how much emphasis was there on discipline, following orders?”
Well I think it was pretty sharp at, you know keeping us straight, learned how to make a bed for
one thing.
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Interviewer: “Okay, now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Army?”
I think I had an easy time adjusting, I didn’t have no problems.
Interviewer: “Okay, well as a farmer you were probably in pretty good shape. So you
could do the physical work, and you were used to obeying orders?”
In a way, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, so those are the things that throw people off and you were– Were you
a little bit older than all of the guys you were training with?”
Yeah I think I was basically, probably the group that I got called in was about the same age but
our cadre that was trying to train us was younger than we were and this did create a little
problem with them, I think more so than it did with us older ones– Fellas.
Interviewer: “So those guys were guys who went in when they were 18 and then they’ve got
a bunch of you guys who are 21.” (7:23)
They were in– Well they were in reserve see, and they got called in and that’s how this went
about.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you have six weeks and after the six weeks of basic do you get to
go home and come back or?”
Well there was a six week training thing that I didn’t get in, I was one of the few that didn’t
being– Having my name with Z it was– All the places were full and these fellas all went to–
That got that training went to Fort Camp Belvoir, Maryland.
Interviewer: “Or Virginia maybe?”
�Ziebart, Kenneth
That was engineering [unintelligible] And come back after six weeks there was a– That was one
part where there really was nothing for us to do that was left there.
Interviewer: “So you basically– You finish basic training and then you sit around Fort
Leonard Wood?”
Well they didn’t let us sit around, we were pulling KP and guard duty on a pretty basic time, you
know what I mean. We– They made sure, I mean there was stuff that we could do.
Interviewer: “Alright now did you eventually–”
I personally ended up in the hospital right after basic training because we were sent out to the
rifle range with a machine gun to get rid of some old ammunition and of course all day long
we’re shooting trees down, down at Fort Leonard Wood and I got kind of carried away a little
said “Well I’m gonna shoot left handed.” And I had a vaccination on my thing and that got–
Well I got infected and put in the hospital for a little, couple of– Few days, then we went on from
there.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did you eventually get any specialized training? Did you train
as an engineer?” (9:50)
No, no I didn’t.
Interviewer: “You said you just had basic training and then you didn’t get to go to Fort
Belvoir with the other guys.”
The only special training that I did get was probably in train tracks and stuff like that. We had a
little bit of that stuff but other than for what we went into when we did go to Korea, I was not
trained really on that.
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Interviewer: “Alright, so when did you go to Korea?”
Well we– Well–
Interviewer: “Or did you have more time in the U.S first?”
I’d say about a year from when I started– Went in and I– But took 13 days to get to Yokohama.
Interviewer: “Well let’s go back now to that first year though, so you had your basic
training at Fort Leonard Wood and then did you just stay at Fort Leonard Wood after that
or did they send you somewhere else?”
No, we were shipped out to the west coast to California to Camp Beale, it was Beale Air Force
Base after we went in and we did work a little bit. There I got a little training on machinery and
stuff. It was altogether different than the farming I did.
Interviewer: “Okay, now is this the kind of machinery that they used to maintain runways
and that sort of thing?” (11:23)
Yes, built runways.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you are getting some on the job training but in the regular
duty assignment.”
And the was up summer till fall when we were sent–
Interviewer: “Okay, now what part of California is Camp Beale in?”
Camp Beale is– Have you ever heard of Marysville and Yuba city? It’s east of San Francisco
about 50 miles from Sacramento.
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Interviewer: “Alright, so kind of central California.”
North east of sacr– So it probably be a little bit north of Sacramento.
Interviewer: “Alright, now was that in the valley there where Sacramento is or was it fairly
flat?”
Well it was pretty flat I thought, there was a lot of fruit raised in that area and like I said you
could see the mountains. We were close to the mountains too because we– If we had a pass to get
out of there we could ride to Nevada City and Green Valley, these were a couple small towns
between Reno in there. Fact even I went one weekend to Reno just to see what it was like.
Interviewer: “Okay, I mean did you go skiing or just go into the mountains, go into the
towns just to do something.”
Yeah we just– Mostly scenic stuff.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did you think that maybe you’d get to spend your whole
time there?” (13:15)
No, we realized we were in a camp and we were going somewhere, but you know they fooled us
because we had to pack up all the stuff and we were sure we were going to Alaska but that
wasn’t what it was.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay so now at the– You get kind of into the fall then towards the
end of the year, now you get to go to Korea.”
Now we get going to Korea.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did they get you to Korea?”
�Ziebart, Kenneth
We got on a boat with 600 Navy men [unintelligible] and about 3500 soldiers on the boat.
Interviewer: “Alright, now was this a troop transport?”
It was– I kinda forgot the name of it but it had a sister ship that we come back on, I know the two
of them are very much alike.
Interviewer: “Alright, and were these like APAs, I mean big transport ships or are you
not–”
Yeah I think it was a big transport one.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright but it wasn’t a converted ocean liner or something.”
It was converted to move troops, I mean we had close to 5000 people on that boat.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay now how does that actually work in terms of feeding people or
anything else, how do you spend your time?” (14:42)
We got two meals a day, if you weren’t seasick, and that was one in the morning in different
shifts depending on what part of the boat you were in and you went in there to get it. You never
got a noon meal you got a— [phone ringing]
Interviewer: “Alright, now what was the weather like on the way over?”
Well we ran into the end of a typhoon that hit the Hawaiian islands, but we were north of that
and it took us 13 days before we landed in Yokohama.
[phone call]
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Interviewer: “Alright, okay so we settled that part– Alright now did you get seasick
yourself?”
Well no, not seasick I had a friend who wasn’t a doctor but he worked with the doctors, you
know and he got me with the pills and kept me going until I– I’ll tell you one fellow across from
me, we stand up when we eat and stuff, he got sick while we was there and he threw up across
table and I mean I couldn’t– Fool me for eating at that time but I remember my friend he got me
some oranges and he says “Just keep sucking on them, you’ll be alright.” And I did alright.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you got to Yokohama did you get to get off the ship?”
Yes but right on to a railcar.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did they send you?”
To Sasebo, Japan where we got on a, what they called a ferry boat, a wooden boat and it was a
beautiful ship, I mean evidently it was– At one time it must’ve been a Japanese treasure or you
know whatever but it only took us overnight to get to Busan, Korea.
Interviewer: “Right, and then from there where did you go?” (17:45)
Well we went about– I think it was about six miles out of Busan to K-2.
Interviewer: “Okay, so that’s an air base.”
The air base yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, and once you got there now what is your job?”
Well I started off I was the oiler on a train– On a crane and back then, you know you got a job
and you had a job for 12 hours straight every day and I think the fellow that was operating the
�Ziebart, Kenneth
crane the second day we were out there he says “Hey, you think you can take and operate this
crane?” He said “I gotta go in the thing for a little while.” I said “Yeah, I think I can do it.” And
he said “Well get up there and show me you can do it.” So I did and filled a couple trucks with
dirt, you know [unintelligible] extend the airport and he was satisfied so I did the rest but I never
saw him the rest of the day until I got back in the camp and he’s “Well now we’re going to two–
Three, eight hour things.” Well, that didn’t work out too good. Well, we got the– They decided
well they brought us all over and we had one company and we’re all going back the same time.
So they decided to split us in three groups and I got in a group that went up to Seoul and K-16 at
that time.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you spend most of you time up at a base near Seoul rather than
down near Busan.” (19:43)
And there I worked a night shift, 12 hour shift but I didn’t operate a crane or anything at first
until the fella that was operating the– This wasn’t a crane but it was a– We call them dip sticks it
was a hydraulic–
Interviewer: “Like a backhoe or?”
Yeah, backhoe like only it went forward, you know and then I got that job for the rest of the– My
time.
Interviewer: “So why did they need them around the clock?”
What’s that?
Interviewer: “Well I would think you’d do most that kind of work during the day,
wouldn’t you? When you can see something?”
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Well this– Where we did it they had six rock crushers and we were picking the rock out of thing
which this mountain– Hill was solid rock in places and there were times when we had to
dynamite the rock to get it out of there we couldn’t even shovel to get it out and–
Interviewer: “But you could do that around the clock?”
Yeah, we would– We very seldom run an asphalt plant and crushers during the night in fact they
never– They didn’t even have lights in that area, the generator was down near the– It was right
along Han River and the generator would be in that place.
Interviewer: “Alright, so if you had a night shift what would you do? If you had to work,
you know in the middle of the night?”
Yeah well I– After about two months before that I was just over 50 Korean workers that were
picking rocks and stuff from the crusher and then after that I operated a crane which was
probably for about six– Five or six months– Or the shovel.
Interviewer: “Alright, now on the base where you were at then did you– Was it dangerous
at all, were there any attacks?” (22:02)
Well when we got– When we landed Pusan they had six miles, square miles, of land in the
southern part, we could hear the shells.
Interviewer: “Okay so you arrive and– Well you wouldn’t have gotten to Pusan thought
until long after the Pusan perimeter fight.”
Exactly, I think it was just after– I’m thinking it was right after MacArthur landed at Inchon.
Interviewer: “Okay, well he lands at Inchon in September of 1950. So you’re not there yet
and they break out of Pusan perimeter at the same time.”
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Well, no we didn’t break out until he got– He cut the Chinese off.
Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s still September that’s– So that happens then we push north and
then they push back south again. So when did you get to Korea?”
What?
Interviewer: “When did you arrive in Korea?”
I would say probably mid November of– Well I know it was November of 1950 because– or
sorry, ‘51.
Interviewer: “ ‘51 yeah okay.”
1951 because we had our Thanksgiving dinner on that train going down to Sasebo.
Interviewer: “Okay yeah, alright so basically by then the front has basically stabilized
across the middle of the country.” (23:40)
Yeah by then they had the Chinese trapped is what happened and I didn’t realize there was that
many Chinese. I happened to see a movie of there and they said there was 350,000 were trapped
you know in–
Interviewer: “You don’t really trap–”
In South Korea, that gave up, you know surrendered it. Now where they kept them I don’t know,
they couldn’t have kept them in Korea I know that.
Interviewer: “Well I’m not sure about the numbers and so forth but there was a lot of back
and forth early on, we had pushed them back the last time– Okay, in any case so it’s fairly
�Ziebart, Kenneth
settled, I was asking then sort of how dangerous things were and you were talking about
being down at Pusan. I mean did the base down at Pusan get attacked at all? Did Taegu get
hit by enemy aircraft or anything?”
It was a– They were stopped at down at that area, they had stopped and we made– We had our–
When I say “we” I mean our army had them– There was a river that went across from one side to
the other and at that river they had set up.
Interviewer: “I was just asking when you were there. So when you were there, when you
were at K-2, so that’s end of ‘52 beginning of– Or end of ‘51 beginning of ‘52, at that time
were there– Did the enemy attack the base at all?”
I think they were driven back already, you know I spent one night I remember on guard duty in a
rail station and I could hear shells, you know were going off but other than that I didn’t see no
action really.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you got to the area around Seoul, I mean you’ve got some
pictures of battle damage or whatever, damaged buildings and things like that.” (25:50)
Seoul was flattened at that time there was, I think, one or two buildings left in the city.
Interviewer: “Armies had gone through it several times by that time I guess, but the base
that you were on– Did your bases ever get attacked by enemy air units?”
Only– I’m gonna say only one time, small crane– Or plane come across one night and dropped a
few hand bombs in the middle and we had to fill the holes the next day so that the planes could
land.
Interviewer: “Okay, so mostly it was pretty quiet then.”
Yeah.
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Interviewer: “Alright so how– So basically you spent your time kind of running equipment
and– Now you mentioned–”
Like I say it was just doing a job to me in this country only we worked 12 hours instead of eight
hours.
Interviewer: “Right, okay now you mentioned that for a while there you were supervising a
gang of Korean laborers.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So what was that like?”
Well that wasn’t bad at all because these Koreans were hard working people, you know I mean
you didn’t have to tell them too much. They knew what they was gonna do and they did it.
Interviewer: “Did they have a Korean supervisor or somebody–” (27:20)
Yes, that– Well somebody that could talk English because that’s the only way we communicated,
most of them couldn’t talk English.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you were living on these bases what kinds of
accommodations did you have?”
Well you saw the picture of the tents, we lived in tents, in my tent I think of 23 and me, I mean
age of 24 is when I got in there. I was put in charge of the tent because I had a corporal's thing
and I thought that was funny because all these guys were just privates or private first class, I
mean in fact I said to the guys “There must be somebody with more than me.” “Nope, this is
your tent.” I never actually met but one guy and he worked midnights with me and that’s how I
�Ziebart, Kenneth
got in touch with him. The other 22, they were gone, hopped into the village, they had their ways
in the village, I didn’t have no problems there at all.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you had a big tent and not a lot of occupants.”
Hm?
Interviewer: “You had a big tent and a lot of the guys were gone during the night?”
Oh I don’t know what they did– Well yeah they were all gone, in fact the colored– It was a
colored fellow, the fellow that was on duty– On night shift, he drove a water truck he’d see that
we had water all the time. He was real nice in fact he comes to me and I remember the first night
I was– Didn’t have to go to work at first, till the next day and I see these guys coming in,
everyone was black and you know I never saw that before, you know and I must’ve really shown
that to this fellow and he comes to me and he says “Don’t worry, I’ll take care of them.” He was
next in line behind me, he says “They’ll all be gone tonight.” He says “They’ll be back
tomorrow.”
Interviewer: “Okay, so were there a lot of blacks from the engineering units or?” (30:05)
In this one there was, we had 85% black.
Interviewer: “Because during World War II there had been a lot of all black engineer units
who did things like build the Burma Road and so forth.”
We had, like I said, about 15% white.
Interviewer: “Yeah, because they were integrating the Army by that time, so they were
starting to mix– So the unit you were in may well have been originally a black unit and
they were rotating some white troops into it.”
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now let’s see– So you’ve got the big tents, now are the tents heated?
Do you have stoves in there?”
Oh yeah, we had two little stoves in there, the oil stoves that’s it, but one thing– Well we’re up
north there then, it got cold but very little snow, we saw very little snow up there.
Interviewer: “Now did you have a lot of Koreans working on the base?”
Oh yeah, we had our own house boy and they’d have in the– Where the cooks were they had a
lot of Koreans working in there.
Interviewer: “Okay and were you ever worried that some of them might be on the other
side?” (31:28)
No I didn’t worry about it because they all seemed nice, they were real nice I always thought but
they could’ve been, I mean because you can’t tell one from another.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did you have much of a sense of what was going on in the actual
war or were you just minding your own business?”
Well it was the 38th barrel was stopped and I mean there was no real fighting going on I don’t
think, to speak of. Like I say it was just like a job, a regular job like you do in this country.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you spend all of your time on the base or did you get to go
into Seoul or go anywhere else?”
I went into Seoul one time and that was when the– They have the monsoons in Korea and we
couldn’t work out in the– At night at the quarry because the river was high and flood waters
were coming in and– But if you didn’t have guard duty you could have time to go into Seoul or
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Yeongdeungpo which was a kind of a main city for industry in Korea and in fact we had to
vacate our area because the channel going around it, it was like a– Well it was a highland, and
we had to vacate it for about, oh a couple days and get out of there because we were afraid the
bridge was gonna wash out.
Interviewer: “So you got a little bit of time off for that.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, and you said that Seoul was pretty well flattened, did we have
facilities that we had put up for people there?”
That was what was left, we didn’t put them up I mean we took them over, you know like we
went into Seoul to get some hamburgers and add five– The building we went into was five
stories high and the hamburger place, it was like McDonald’s but it was the fifth floor up and we
had waited probably three hours before you could work your way up there to get them and when
you bought them you better get at least a dozen at a time.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did you get to– Any kind of leave to go anywhere else?” (34:35)
I had one leave to Japan.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go in Japan?”
Well, to tell you the truth I don’t really know.
Interviewer: “Okay, they just took you some place.”
Yeah I just was– Well I think it was in Tokyo and I stayed at a hotel there it was called Fuji
Hotel, it was as pretty nice place, for about a week and– Yeah, always found a girl that would
�Ziebart, Kenneth
take you shopping, if you wanted to go shopping, and she could save you a ton of money, so I
remember that.
Interviewer: “Alright, so how did the Japanese people treat you?”
As your best friend, they were very nice.
Interviewer: “Okay, did that surprise you at all having grown up in World War II?”
Not really, I think– You know they had a problem as far as the Japanese and Koreans, so they
didn’t– The Japanese really had to stay out of this, peace action.
Interviewer: “Yeah they had been in Korea and were not very nice, so Koreans didn’t like
them.” (36:05)
They raped that country.
Interviewer: “Alright, now if you think about the year you spent in Korea are there
particular things that stand out in your memory that you haven’t talked about yet?”
Well I was on the– During the monsoons, which was in August usually late July and August, I
was– Had to pull guard duty up out at the quarry where we had out asphalt plant and stuff, and I
was supposed to be relieved after four hours because there was– We had maybe ten guys that
worked out there at night, so we took– Supposedly took turns but I never got relieved all night
long. I know I fell asleep on guard duty but it was pouring rain all the time and there was a guard
house there, so I didn’t just sit in there and wait till morning. That was one thing I remembered
but somehow they got their thing screwed up and when they didn’t get their guys there I didn’t
think it would create any problem or anything nobody else was– I didn’t have to worry about
anybody else coming to take a crusher away so– They might come and blow them up but boy it
would have been hard.
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Interviewer: “Okay, did you have any problems either with theft or sabotage or anything?”
No I don’t really think so, I don’t recall any.
Interviewer: “So nobody was stealing a rock crusher or anything like that?”
No, that wouldn’t happen on a southern Korean, or north Korean might steal a southern Korean
thing. The other thing that I– I noticed how thin people were and I really felt sorry for them, you
know they went through all this big war and taken over by the Japanese and now this. Everything
getting blown up– Like Seoul wasn’t a bad city I think at one time, but it was flattened and they
rebuilt that whole thing I understand from what I see online and stuff everything’s rebuilt. In fact
Gimpo airport, basically we made our larger air field there become their international airport.
Interviewer: “Right, it still is.” (39:20)
Still is.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay so as you got sort of to the end of your enlistment did the Army
make an effort to encourage you to stay?”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “What did they offer you?”
Nothing, I don’t think– They may have offered something but I didn’t, you know it was just I
was ready to go home.
Interviewer: “Alright, now how did they get you back home?”
By boat, but it only took us nine days by boat.
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Interviewer: “Alright, was the weather better?”
Yeah we didn’t have a damn typhoon to fight.
Interviewer: “Alright, and where do you land in the U.S?”
San Francisco.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did they discharge you there or send you some place else?”
Oh no, we got sent to Camp McCoy in Wisconsin, that’s at Eau Claire, Wisconsin and it was
closed when we got there and they had to call in a unit to–
Interviewer: “The MPs?” (40:32)
A guard unit to come in and reduce– And I remember getting– I got– I was the last one on the
day before Thanksgiving to get [unintelligible] but it was at about quarter after 12 in
Thanksgiving. So that was my Thanksgiving I rode back– Well I had a car it was one of these– It
was a 49– What was the car we had, Rich?
Off camera voice: “35 Chevrolet.”
No, no that was– These were newer ones 49 you had one of them funny backseat, what was the
name of the car? They don’t make it anymore but it was a [unintelligible] I did lose a tire and a
thing going back home.
Interviewer: “But you had a car at Camp McCoy?”
Yeah, we had to go home– From home up to there on Sunday before we checked in out there. Of
course I got let go with civilian clothes because I had shipped my Army clothes home from San
Francisco and they never got there in time.
�Ziebart, Kenneth
Off camera voice: “Kaiser Frazer was the car.”
Kaiser, it was a Kaiser.
Interviewer: “Alright, now once you got back home now what do you do? So you’re out of
the Army–”
Well I was lucky I had been on a farm but I always found a winter job in town, in one of the
factories or some place and I just met here to stand at 3M corporation. They made– What did
they make, phonographs and phonographic material and I just stayed there for about 26 years and
after that– But they went bankrupt so I had to find another job.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when you look back at the time you spent in the Army do you
think you learned anything from it or if it affected you at all?” (43:27)
Yeah I– Okay I wouldn’t want to go through it again– I wouldn’t have given a nickel to go
through it again but I think I got an education. The one thing that I noticed was how good we
have it here in this country compared to the countries over there.
Interviewer: “Alright, well thank you for taking the time to share the story today.”
�Ziebart, Kenneth
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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ZiebartK2176V
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ziebart, Kenneth
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12
Title
A name given to the resource
Ziebart, Kenneth (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Kenneth Ziebart was born on May 23, 1928 in St. Joseph, Michigan. Ziebart’s family owned a farm and his father lost his job as a butcher during the Great Depression. He recalled hearing about the attack on Pearl Harbor over the radio when a newscast interrupted the football broadcast he was listening to. Since they owned a farm, Ziebart’s family received larger quantities of gas through wartime rationing. After missing the final draft for the Second World War, Ziebart was drafted for service during the Korean War in November of 1950. He attended Basic Training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, where he was instructed by personnel that were younger than the recruits in training. After basic training, Ziebart was sent to Beale Air Force Base in California where he received basic instruction on machinery and light engineer work before being shipped to Busan, Korea in November of 1951. In Korea, he was stationed at an airbase as a crane oiler and was later sent to another base outside Seoul where he worked in mechanized excavation. He recalled how, one night, an enemy aircraft flew over the base and dropped small bombs near the airfield, forcing Ziebart and the engineers to fill in the holes in the runway for American planes to land safely. Nonetheless, both bases saw little combat action, theft, or sabotage during his tour in Korea. He also recalled supervising a group of Korean laborers who he described as incredibly hard-working. There were approximately 85% African American personnel in the engineering units Ziebart worked with, which surprised him. He also visited Japan while on leave for a week during which the Japanese were exceptionally nice to their American guests. Toward the end of his enlistment, Ziebart was shipped back to the United States and was officially discharged at Fort McCoy in Wisconsin. When he returned home, he acquired a job for a photographing company. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Ziebart believed he received a quality technical education as well as a greater appreciation for life in the United States.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5098715f6f315d2207690cfbf33f4589.mp4
1ee388839488790b40c303d599b09991
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Wolfe, Jill
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: None (between Cold War and 9/11)
Interviewee’s Name: Jill Wolfe
Length of Interview: 1:18:16
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Jill Wolfe in Grand Rapids, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, Jill, start of with some background on yourself and to begin with: where
and when were you born?
I was born in December 1975 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
Interviewer: Okay, did you grow up there or did you move around?
I moved from Oklahoma City when I was three years old to St. Louis, Missouri and in St. Louis
moved around three times before finally moving to Troy, Michigan a suburb of Detroit when I
was 15.
Interviewer: Okay. And so did you finish high school there?
I did.
Interviewer: Okay. And what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
My mom was an art therapist, so that was kind of interesting, and my dad negotiated contracts
for companies, corporations. Southwestern Bell he worked for for a long time.
Interviewer: At least as long as there was one.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Did that one survive the merges or is that something else?
No, he ended up working for Ameritech.
Interviewer: Okay.
When I was in high school, so.
�Wolfe, Jill
Interviewer: Alright, now… okay so what year did you finish high school?
I graduated in 1994.
Interviewer: Okay, and what did you do after high school?
Well, I had applied and was accepted to both Michigan State University and Grand Valley State
University and I thought Grand Valley was just a little bit further away from my parents and that
sounded good to me, and I have a very specific memory of probably a week or two before I was
supposed to leave for college my mother coming into my bedroom and waking me up and
saying, “You’re not ready to go to college, you should join the military.” and I just remember
being so… it was the weirdest thing, being so surprised, and I said, “No, I’m fine, I’m going to
college.” and that's what I did. I started at Grand Valley in the fall of 1994.
Interviewer: Okay, now where—do you have any idea where that idea of your mother’s
came from?
I think that she has always worried about me? And I did not have great grades in high school
but I got a solid B average, I don’t know where that came from, no. And my dad was in ROTC
during Vietnam and I just don’t come from a military family, so I’m just not sure what she thought
was going on there but it was very weird.
Interviewer: Did he do the full ROTC and then become an officer or just the first two
years and then?
Right, his older brother actually went through the whole ROTC during Vietnam and ended up
being stationed in Korea and he was a career officer and retired from the army probably 25
years after that, so.
Interviewer: Okay, but somewhere in there your mother had the sense that this would
help you grow up or get focused or something.
I don’t know if she was worried about the tuition bill or… I’m gonna have to ask her about this
someday but I think… She’s always been—we’ve never had a great relationship?
Interviewer: Okay. I’ll leave that one there. Okay, so how do you wind up in the military
then? (3:28)
Well, I came to Grand Valley and it was typical Freshman experience, lots of you know, trying
out your freedom and being on your own for the first time and I was fine but I just kinda thought
“Well, maybe there’s something more to life than this?” it didn’t seem like there was much
meaning to it for me and I’ve always been a kind of thoughtful kid, and I didn’t think that much of
it really, I mean it’s just what everybody else did. And so I came home for Thanksgiving and my
parents sat me down and said unless you get a job to help pay for your tuition we’re not gonna
�Wolfe, Jill
send you back next semester. And I was completely surprised at this, I had no idea that this was
an issue for them and I was pretty upset about it, and I threw a huge fit and we argued and they
stood firm on it and said “Nope, this is happening.” and they had to go pick up my grandmother
at the airport she was visiting for the holiday, and as the garage door is closing the phone rings
and it’s a recruiter, and he said “How would you like $30,000 for college?” and I was like, “Let’s
talk! You have some incredible timing, sir, and yeah let’s talk about this.” He was, I think, from
the you know the east side of the state where I was living at the time and I said “Well I’m going
to Grand Valley” and he said “Well I’ll connect you with a recruiter over there.” and so I made an
appointment, didn’t tell my parents, and we met at a bowling alley that was just off campus at
the time. And I didn’t realize this but I was like the first or second person he’d ever tried to
recruit and so he, I was thinking I’d go into the reserves, and he had this binder that he pulled
out and it had like clip art pictures of like an airplane and a dollar sign and you know, I don’t
know, somebody in a hardhat and he’s like “Point to which picture you would want to get out of
your experience.” and somewhere along the line I picked up that he was recruiting for active
duty, full time and I said “Oh, this isn’t for me, I’m not gonna do this.” and he got super sad and
closed his book. “Okay.” and he put it away and I felt badly for him, I was a young woman of the
90s and did not wanna disappoint anybody or make him feel badly so I said go ahead, finish
your speil. So he did and I went back to the dorms, I lived in Kisler at the time, took a long walk,
there was an old tow rope back there in the woods and you know those feelings of I’m feeling
like college just wasn’t holding what I thought it was, I wasn’t doing anything important or that
mattered and maybe this was an option, and it was also not far from my mind that I could do this
myself that I could pay for college and not have to depend on my parents and not have this fight
with them anymore. So I went to the MEP station and I did all the medical stuff and filled out all
the paperwork. I had taken the ASVAB and didn’t know it at the time but had gotten a pretty
good score, I didn’t know what a good score was. (6:50)
Interviewer: So, explain what a MEP station and ASVAB are.
Oh, so the MEP station is the Military Entrance Processing… I don’t know what the S stands for.
I want to say center but clearly that’s not it. But it’s where, if you’re going to go into the military,
they process everything before you go in, and that was that. Then the ASVAB is basically the
competency IQ test the military gives you, and I have no recollection of taking it but I must have,
and so at the MEP station they sat me down to find out what kind of job I wanted to have. I said,
“Well, I’d like something maybe with journalism or computers.” and the recruiter said—another
super sad face—“All those jobs are taken.” and I was like wow, like they filled that up fast and
like the whole army doesn’t, okay, not wanting to disappoint anyone and he said “Well what
about like a truck driver or cook?” and I said “You know, if I can do it in the civilian world I’m not
sure I want to do it in the army.” and he said “Okay, well why don’t you go talk to the captain.”
So I went into the Captain’s office and sat down and same thing, what do you want to do. Well
I’d like to be in a writer, I’ve always been a writer, maybe journalism or something along that line
or possibly something with computers. Again, super sad face, don’t have any of those left, and
then he asked me he said, “Have you ever considered a traditional female job?” and I’m 19, I
have no idea what he’s talking about like I’m not even aware enough to be offended, just like
what could he possibly be referring to. And so I ask “What do you mean?” and he says, louder,
�Wolfe, Jill
“You know, a traditional female job?” and I’m racking my brain and finally I’m like, “You mean,
like a mom?” like that was the only thing I could think of that he was talking about, and he just
said, “You know what, never mind, go back out and talk to Sergeant so and so and we’ll find
something for you.” And so I went back out to Sergeant so-and-so and he had a whole list
printed off on his desk of things that I qualified for based on my ASVAB score, and there was
one that said non-morse communications specialist. And I was like “Well I’m a communications
major, I can do that!” and he said “Oh you don’t want that job, that’s a six-year hitch.” and I said
“Well, I don’t know,” like, “I don’t know, read it, see what it is.” So he gets out his book and he
opens it up and he’s like “Oh, it’s actually a 3 year hitch!” and I’m like “Perfect.” I knew that I
probably couldn’t do two years because that’s mostly for combat arms, so he read it off and I
didn’t really understand any of it, but I said sure, let’s do that. And he said okay. So, signed up
for that and it turns out that that particular job has a very high security clearance, and so I spent
several weeks going through all interviews with the—I can’t even remember the name of the
service but it’s like a government service separate from the military that does these, and I
remember I had some paperwork I had to fill out and they asked me how many times I’ve been
drunk. I was a freshman in college and I’m like, I don’t know, I think I wrote down 4 or 5. And
then I was in an interview and they asked me again and I think I said like 7 or 8 and that
stopped the whole thing. “Oh, what’s this discrepancy here?” and all I could say was I just
don’t—I’m not a huge drinker but, you know, I’ve been to parties in high school and parties in
college and I guess they decided that was a good enough explanation, at least enough to send
me to boot camp. So the way I had sort of worked things out was I think I was pretty much all
set to go like March, April maybe, timeframe and so but I wanted to finish out my semester here
at Grand Valley, my parents did send me back. And oh, but the way, to go back to that when I
came back to visit in probably January or something and told them that I had joined the military
they were “Oh no, no no no! That’s not at all, no! You don’t have to do that, let’s not do that,
we’ll figure something out.” and I said “No. I have decided that this is what I’m gonna do and this
is what I’m gonna do, and you don’t have to pay for anything so don’t even worry about it.” So
they, I guess, didn’t fight too hard on it but I knew they were—they just thought “What the heck
is going on?” So I finish out the semester at Grand Valley, I knew I was shipping out in May of
1995 and I got like a waiver or something cause I wanted to go down and visit my family in
Oklahoma, so I actually shipped out from Oklahoma and… do you want me to keep going?
(12:11)
Interviewer: Oh yeah. Where was boot camp?
So I shipped out to Fort Jackson, South Carolina and I had never even flown by myself before,
so like I was really… I think back like it was really the first time I had ever been on my own, it
was scary and we got to the airport and there were several of us and they picked us up in a van,
and they drove us to Fort Jackson, and it felt like the middle of the night to me I don’t know how
late it was but it felt like the middle of the night. And I remember they had this room where
before—you know you had a box in it and you could go into, it was like a booth almost, and
there was a box in it and they were, they just scared the living shit out of us like “If you have
ANYTHING on you that is unauthorized you need to put it in that box.” it is the amnesty box is
what it was, so. I remember going through my bag and having pictures of like my boyfriend and
�Wolfe, Jill
like a granola bar and like all this stuff and I was just like “Okay, fine.” you know and just put it
in, and just put everything in there that was personal, basically. And yeah it was really… it was
scary and I had no idea what was going to happen next.
Interviewer: Now did you find out later whether or not that was really what they meant by
unauthorized, or did they really want drugs and whatnot?
I think it was drugs and porn is mostly what ended up in there, but again, I did not want to break
any rules or have anybody be mad at me and I thought well, you know, just like you said they
put the fear of God into us about having anything unauthorized, so. (13:56)
Interviewer: Alright, so now what’s the processing system like? I mean you get there,
you’ve gotten rid of your unauthorized material, and then what?
We went to like a holding unit? So, I don’t remember much about getting issued, like, my
uniforms. I do—they issued, I feel like, the dress uniforms later? I do remember that. But got the
BDUs and the boots and maybe offered a haircut and we got sent to this like holding unit where
I met these women that were from all over the United States. Most of them I would say very
different from how I had been raised and a lot of women of color. Had a fair number of
representatives who were exotic dancers, which I thought was kind of interesting, a lot of them
had children that they had signed over, you know, what do you call it… custody to, to their
parents, so that they could come do this. And we all called each other by where we were from:
so there was Michigan, California, Louisiana and Carolina and that was just how we did it, and I
feel like there was kind of an immediate bond. And I do remember being woken up very very
early in the morning—and I mean you know of knew that was going to happen but it was still a
shock and doing exercises and eating the gross food in the chow hall. There was a male
company that was in the same area that we were, and we were always kind of looking over at
them like “What are they doing, do they have it as bad as us, are we going to be with them?”
because it turns out I was maybe the second unit to go through or cohort to go through Fort
Jackson in a mixed gender platoons. So, anyway, spent a few days there until I guess they got
enough of us to send over to our regular basic training unit and rode the bus over there, and you
know, just like in the movies the bus door opens and those drill sergeants just tear onto that bus
and start screaming at us and we’re just have no idea what’s going on, grabbing our stuff,
people are doing push ups and it was… very jarring and, but I just kept my mouth shut and did
what I was told which served me very well for most of my military service. And I feel like we
were there for like a day and a half before the males showed up, and so again, like he was
learning how to use floor buffers, for some reason that was a big deal. And we had these big
bays that we were in and like I don’t know how many of us, maybe 20, with bunk beds top and
bottom and lockers, learning how to organize our stuff and I remember we were having some
sort of lecture, they were giving us some information, we were all sitting on the floor in one of
the bays in the barracks and some female did something… skirty. And drill sergeant, female drill
sergeant, called her up in front of the class and was like “Beat your face, better get down and
beat your face.” and this girl was so scared, and she just froze and drill sergeant yelled it louder
like, “Get down, beat your face!” and she sort of was looking back and forth and trying to figure
�Wolfe, Jill
out and she gets down on both knees and starts going like this (Wolfe pats her left cheek
rapidly) and that was the first time I ever saw a drill sergeant crack a smile. And she puts her
head down and she says “Push ups, Private.” and then you can see them go “Oh! Okay.” and
so she starts doing push ups. And I’ll never forget that. That’s how the army sort of taught us
lessons was make an example out of one person and make it so terrible that you would never
ever subject yourself to that, so. So yeah, so then it was about a day and a half and then the
males arrived and it was a very weird thing, I think when you tell 19-20 year old kids that they
are to have absolutely no fraternization or any sort of, no flirting, nothing, it’s just. They can’t
help but do it. So I remember that being like a constant sort of underlying tension was this like…
weird, sexual, and there were people having sex in the pup tents when we were out, you know,
on BIVOUAC and laundry rooms, wherever. It was pretty crazy. But, that being said, I think it
was really good for us like of course we were going to be in our units with males and they were
going to be with females, so they needed to learn to work with us. And they were also really
diverse and interesting and came from all sorts of backgrounds—we had one guy that was a…I
don’t know what he was thinking, he flunked out of West Point and was there. And in fact we
had a couple of West Point Cadets that were there, helping to train. So yeah, that was boot
camp. For me it felt like kind of a tough summer camp. (19:17)
Interviewer: But what were they having you do? How were you spending your time while
you were there?
I remember we spent a lot of time learning how to march, we were terrible at it. Lot of times and
so I was in Fort Jackson, South Carolina in… you know, May, June July. It was pretty hot. We,
in fact, we would do things like, like we had the—oh god, what’s it called—bayonet course, we
had to learn to use our bayonets and so we had a course through the words where we would
like stab these like fake soldiers. And it was so hot and there was like, they had different flags,
that they didn’t want us running through it we had to walk through it and so. And I remember
also being out on, I forget what we called it, but maneuvers we had to walk out to a spot in the
woods, we dug these fox holes, set up pup tents and it was all in this South Carolina heat and I
remember lying inside of my pup tent after having just sweated all day and I was still in my tshirt that I had worn and I couldn’t stand the smell of myself, it was so just gross. And I don’t
know if they didn’t give us wipes or whatever but it was just dirty and so we did that, and then I
remember the march back we had gotten no sleep and that being really, really hard and I could
barely keep my eyes awake. Probably the most physically exhausted I’ve ever been in my life
outside of giving birth, that was pretty tough too, but. And I remember we were almost back to
the barracks and I was holding my weapon and had a full pack on and I tripped and I just
managed to catch myself before I fell but sort of took a few steps and got out of line, and I
remember First Sergeant just on me so fast and just screaming at me “What are you doing, get
back in line!” and I think, like looking back on it now, they knew how exhausted and tired we
were and they just needed us to hold on a little bit longer and any sort of give that they would
have given us we just would have collapsed because we were so tired, but he really went after
me and I didn’t have that happen too often. One of the other memories that really stands out is
doing the gas chamber, and I used that sort of as the baseline for the hardest most
uncomfortable thing I’ve ever done, it was really awful. So they had, like a little shed basically,
�Wolfe, Jill
and they sort of told us what was going to happen and we had our gas masks and had been
trained on that, and our mock gear, and again South Carolina heat this was in the mid 90’s, I
mean like mock gear’s always been terrible but so they march us into there and Drill Sergeants
in there and has some sort of… I know it’s not mustard gas but some sort of, and it’s yellow and
the whole room is dark and filled with this sort of brown yellow haze. And of course before we
go in we all just take a deep breath and just hold our breath. And so we’re all standing in there
just holding our breath, kind of looking around, not really knowing what to expect and Drill
Sergeants in there in there in his mask and he says, “Okay, everybody take a breath.” and I’m
looking around and like my eyes are kind of burning a little bit but it doesn’t really seem that
bad. And so I’m like, I’m just gonna take a teeny little breath in, and just barely open my nostrils
and just—eugh, just got in my lungs and just started coughing and coughing and coughing. —
Oh, we must have walked in with our masks on, that’s what happened. Then take your mask off,
and of course we’re holding our breath, we’re looking around no big deal, he tells us to take a
breath, we kind of look around, we try it, and then everybody starts coughing. And they were
very clear like if you push, or if you try to run out of there, you’re gonna be in huge trouble—I
don’t know if they told us we could get kicked out of the army because of it, like they were not
fucking around that you do not push to get out of there, but man. Everything within my beings
was just choking choking choking. So, finally they open the door and you do start shoving to get
out, and we had to do this weird thing were we had to talk while we were, and they said “I am
opening my eyes, I am flapping my arms.” is what we had to say. And of course we’re choking
and just the snot, I just remember. And just choking and everybody is like stumbling all around
int he woods, it was this like Carolina pine forest, and just. Just trying to get it out of our system
and it was so, so unpleasant it probably took a good 10 minutes to clear all that out, but once it
was over then felt kind of a sense of accomplishment. Okay, like, I did that. So that was that
part. We learned to fire weapons and one of the things that I remember is that they would take
us—they would issue our weapons, must have been near the barracks, and it was… we were
so tired, so tired, so they’d load us all on a bus and we had these kevlar helmets that we put on
and we’d sit on the bus and we had our rifles between our knees and I remember, if you could
get your kevlar like perfectly balanced on the muzzle of your M-16 you could sleep. You could
just. But, if the bus hit a bump, it would knock the muzzle of the rifle into your forehead so there
were a whole bunch of us that had wounds on our heads from trying to sleep on the bus, so.
And we—yeah, so, and I actually really enjoyed the marksmanship part of it and I was actually
pretty good at it. We shot at these little targets that were made like Russian soldiers and we
called them Ivans. And I remember when we lined up to get our badges, um… am I moving
around too much? We were all lined up and it must have been the Lieutenant, maybe it was one
of the West Point Cadets, came by and was giving out they were like sharpshooter,
sharpshooter, expert, sharpshooter, and then came to me and said “Expert.” and I was like.
Wait what? And I remember being excited and like wanting to, I had this urge to like hug the
cadet and like, they were both sort of surprised like okay never mind, but yeah, I had done really
well at the range and I really enjoyed it. And to this day I was actually in Oklahoma over
thanksgiving and we were shooting skeet with a shotgun and in the front yard of the farm and
I’m legally blind, and I probably fired better than anyone except my dad, who's also sort of just
known to be a really good shot. So I—we don’t know if it’s genetic or what, but. That was pretty
much actually the last time I fired a gun, was in the army. Was in basic training, sorry. The last
�Wolfe, Jill
time I fired a weapon in the army in basic training, so we did that…. Trying to think of some
other funny stories that happened in boot camp. I had one in my head. I do remember to go
back to getting our dress uniforms like halfway through. It was halfway through boot camp, the
drill sergeant kind of lightened up at this point and, you know, the girls went on one side and the
guys went on the other and the dress uniforms were like skirts and blouses. And like… we’re all
wearing—I wasn’t, but a lot of my fellow soldiers were wearing these what they called BCGs,
Birth Control Glasses, that they issue you, and.
Interviewer: Those have the big heavy flat black screens?
Yeah, yeah, just… not at all attractive but everybody had the same ones and we put on these
skirts, and we put on these heels—they issued us heels—and we put on these blouses and
we’ve been in, you know, battle dress uniform, BDUs, for a long time in boots and had out hair
tied back or cut off and I remember putting on these dress uniforms and we’re looking at each
other and we’re like, “Hi!” And in fact we had an opportunity to step out into the hallway or into a
room where the guys had come in when their dress uniforms’ on and we were like “Okay!” and
they were like “Oh, hey, you’re actually kind of feminine.” so it was a very sort of weird moment
but, you know you just have everything taken away from you and I do remember that there was
lots of fighting with the girls but there was also the girls, I remember some of the black girls
would sing Amazing Grace, they would sing gospel songs in the barracks at night and, just to
have everybody singing together even those of us white girls that hadn’t grown up with that, but
you know we knew the words, was really quite powerful and built some pretty strong
relationships. And I have not kept in touch with anybody that I was in boot camp with but it was
a pretty life-changing experience and I remember that I was doing laundry one time and the
barracks were like, they were on stilts, they were big brick buildings and so the whole bottom
floor was just open area to the outside with like maybe a room for the laundry, and so my
laundry was getting done. You had to be very careful to watch your laundry because people
would steal it to have extra uniforms and t-shirts and stuff, so I was close but I was stepped
outside and I saw this sunset happening at Fort Jackson, South Carolina and I remember
having an appreciation for a sunset unlike anything I had before like, it was just a moment of
peace and tranquility and I was so homesick, I missed home so much and on Sundays you
could go to church, which anyone who has been to bootcamp knowns even if you are never
religious going into boot camp, to be able to have the opportunity to leave the training area and
go to a place where you could feel semi-human and like you were an individual or a person was
huge. And I remember also feeling very grateful for the opportunity to sit in pews with people
who were dressed in civilian clothes and sing the songs and just have that moment of feeling a
little bit like myself again, so.
So, yeah, it was… a great experience, my parents came down for graduation which was great
but honestly I spent most of the time celebrating with my fellow platoon mates, we were just so
excited and I remember I had asked my mom to bring a dress cause I wanted a dress, I wanted
to wear something feminine, and she brought this little sundress and it had a little like cropped
jean jacket that went with it, and so I went out to lunch with my parents, my brother was
probably there too, I went out to dinner and then we made plans to meet, everybody to meet up
later and one of the guys from my platoon, his parents were staying in the same hotel as my
�Wolfe, Jill
parents, and so he stopped by the room to pick me up. And I remember opening the door and
him seeing me in the dress with my hair down and just, he was just like, and I was just like,
“Woah.” So we did, we went out and somebody bought alcohol and we had a hotel room and we
just partied and hooked up and did all those things we hadn’t been allowed to do for a long time
but, it was kinda sort of anti-climatic because I was told that my security clearance still hadn’t
gone through, so I had to stay at bootcamp rather than go on to AIT which was Advanced
Individuals Training. (32:00)
Interviewer: What proportion of your platoon got through the whole thing?
That’s a good question. I think most of them probably did. I think there were two girls that got
sent back a rotation because of physical training, because they couldn’t do the push ups and
the sit ups. I was not good at the run, the run was really hard for me, and I–throughout my entire
time in the army I hated battalion runs, I hated having to run at the same pace as everyone else
because I inevitably fell behind and I inevitably would be… God, I don’t know what was worse:
having a drill sergeant next to me, you know, belittling me and telling me I was garbage, or
having a drill sergeant next to me telling me I could do it, yay, c’mon you just have to put a little,
you can do it! I hated it all so much and I was, I felt it was really embarrassing and I didn’t like
that part of it at all, but I did pass.
Interviewer: But you didn’t have a lot of people who just decided it wasn’t for them and
went away or anything like that?
I don’t remember that at all, no.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what did they have you do while you’re still hanging around Fort
Jackson?
I think it was like sweeping floors and it was not terrible, it was better than having something to
do all the time—oh, I do remember the first time we had a meal in the chow hall, that was kind
of a funny story. So we’re all waiting in line and I remember the girl behind me, we aren’t
supposed to talk, but she started asking me questions and she said “Where are you from?” and
I said, “Well, from the Detroit area.” and this drill sergeant heard and—big black guy—comes
running up “So you’re from Detroit? You’re from Detroit?” and I just thought mmmm, “No, Drill
Sergeant, I’m not from Detroit.” He goes “Then where are you from?” and I was like, “...Troy.”
and he was like “God damn it, you’re not from Detroit!” and starts screaming at me and I, yeah.
But you know, she was from Texas or somewhere so Detroit was the closest thing I could think
of but, so that happened and I was probably in the middle of the line, or maybe a little bit more
towards the front, so we got our food and we walk into like the seating area of the chow hall and
there’s like a low half wall that like divides the seating area, but the seating areas like pretty
much the same on both sides. And I remember the first guy out there kind of looking at one
seating area, looking at the other holding his tray and was like, okay, and he went over and he
sat down in this chair and started eating and like three drill sergeants run over to him like, “Are
you happy? Are you comfortable? Can I get you–” like “Do you need a glass of wine?” like
�Wolfe, Jill
woah! Start screaming at him! And it became clear after a while that that was the drill sergeant’s
seating area and we were supposed to sit on the other side, but of course they don’t tell you
that, right? That’s not—because then the learning comes from from just being so horrified on
what happens to somebody else, I remember that being with somebody walking on the grass,
too. Somebody the first time they walked on grass, first time you forgot your hat, all that stuff,
the punishment for that person was just unbelievable. So yeah, stayed there probably about… I
think it was probably about a week, and it was interesting because during that week my
grandfather, my maternal grandfather was a very wealthy man who owned companies in Asia,
east asia, that were related to the petroleum industry and he had a surprise audit from the IRS.
And so it was never clear, my mother swears that it was because my security clearance was
going through that that happened, but yeah when the audit was done I got my clearance to head
out to Pensacola, Florida so. (36:00)
Interviewer: Okay, so that is now where you get your advanced training, or do you go
with it—okay. Describe that.
So it was on a small little—it feels like it was like left over from World War II—called Cory
Station? And it was like a few miles from the Pensacola Naval Air Station where the Blue Angels
and all sorts of stuff. And I remember, same thing, like I’d taken the flight to get to Pensacola
and I got there and I didn’t—it wasn’t clear to me what I should do to get to the base when I
arrived at the airport but there was a taxi driver there and he said, “Well I’ll take you.” and I said,
“Okay.” And so he drove me there and he’s like “All right, well that’ll be $15.” or whatever and
I’m like “I don’t have $15.” I’m like, “I think the Army will pay you!” and he was like, ugh, you
know? And I could tell he tried to ask me a few questions so I think he had to eat it that night
because I just didn’t have a credit card, I just, you know, I was coming from boot camp so. And,
yeah, being at Cory Station I was there for about 6 months so I think I like arrived in, like August
sounds about right, and it was actually super fun. We were there with Army, Airforce, Navy and
Marines, so all of us were training together. Army was the only one that didn’t have to learn
morse code, so the Marines, Air Force, and the Navy had all—they all knew each other because
they’ve been, I think to Fort Huachuca in Arizona to learn morse code but for whatever reason
the Army didn’t have to do that. And we lived in this sort of quad, so like the Army was over
here, and the Navy was over here, and the Marines were here and we had a smoke shack over
here and then a central courtyard (Wolfe is making a visual map with her hands, starting on her
left and moving to the right.) And every once and awhile you would hear some commotion
outside and it was the Marines, their NCOs tossing the barracks, coming in and just tearing
everything out and I just remember thinking like, “Man, I am so glad I’m not a Marine.” It was…
they had it really tough. The Air Force were in, like, nicer barracks somewhere else of course
which was also weird but whatever. (38:00)
Interviewer: Well, that’s Air Force.
Yeah, like we were on the same base from what I remember, but…yeah and all the rest of us
were together and, you know we had, we went to school on shift training, so depending on your
seniority there you started off on third shift and so you went to school in the middle of the night
�Wolfe, Jill
and we had what’s called a SCIF: Secret Compartmented Information Facility, so we had to
have badges and all sorts of security issues to get into that. And Pensacola is just it’s a beautiful
little coastal city, blue collar, and so we’d go to class during the day and some of us ended up
having cars which was awesome. The longer you’d been there, we were there for 6 months, and
so we’d go to the beach during the day, made some really good friends there. I was in a room
with three other girls who I am—two of them I’m still friends with today, I wish I was still friends
with the other one because she was probably we were the closest of the four of us, but. I mean
you said to not say something, anything that Uncle Sam wouldn’t want to find out but I think this
is no problem at all, one of my roommates was sleeping with the drill sergeant. And worked out
pretty well for me, so I remember she also had a boyfriend back home and he would call in the
middle of the night and want to know where she was, I was like she’s not here, I don’t know.
And so yeah, we didn’t, you know, after awhile we kind of stopped showing up to formation and
again I was always really struggling with my runs, so that was okay with me, but somewhere in
the middle of that Hurricane Opal hit Pensacola and so that was really kind of a fun experience,
I’ll say that too. So they moved us all out of the barracks and moved us into the SCIF which
were these quonset huts basically, they were much more fortified, I think they were actually,
now that I think about it, old World War II airplane hangars that had been reinforced. And so
they put all the girls on one floor in one hanger and all the guys in the other and they gave us
these box lunches of bologna sandwiches and hard boiled eggs. So, it was… after about 24
hours of that it was pretty gross but I do remember standing at the door, they would occasionally
let us go poke our heads out and see what was going on and see the hurricane blowing out. So
then I passed and I remember being told that we might have to go help clean up the area, but
we never ended up having to do it and… yeah. So. (41:22)
Interviewer: So, to the extent that you can, describe the training that you got while you
were there.
Well it was… it was basically codebreaking, so looking at facts, teleprinter, I was terrible at it, it
was not—you know I’m a writer, I’m a creative person, and so looking at you know, we had to
do it all by hand. First learning how to, like, find patterns and numbers and date, it was really
hard and… I have most of it just blocked out, off, I mean I passed clearly I did well enough to
pass but then we got to the end of the course, 6 months of this, and they told us well you’re
gonna get to your first duty station and they’re gonna have computers that run all this. You
know, you’re never gonna use this again, so.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah, and I had come to find out that I was one of the last, so my MOS was 98 Kilo, Non-morse
communications specialist, I was one of the last 98 Kilos there were because we didn’t really
need code breakers for, this is what I assume, fax or teleprinter after awhile. So yeah, and again
I don’t remember a ton from the school; I do remember being in formation one time, and I don’t
know what had happened but—oh! The Navy is really hard with their rank, right? It’s hard to tell
who’s an officer and who’s a chief and whose enlisted and somebody saluted somebody they
shouldn’t have and so we got in trouble for that. And I remember my fellow platoon mates
�Wolfe, Jill
saying to me, like, “Hinton, why did you even join the Army?” like “You’re so quiet, you never
say anything, you’re like a mouse.” And it was funny cause I had never thought of myself like
that before, as quiet, but it was probably true like I just kept my head down and trying to figure
out who I needed to be in order to not get in trouble or get yelled at, so… So yeah, and I had
orders to go to Fort Georgia, I knew pretty much three quarters of the way through that I was
gonna go to Fort Georgia—no, Fort…
Interviewer: Was it a fort in Georgia?
Yes, it was in Georgia.
Interviewer: Fort Stewart?
Gordon.
Interviewer: Fort Gordon, okay.
Fort Gordon. There’s a military intelligence unit there.
Interviewer: Yup.
And I had started dating this guy who was also in the Army, I don’t know if you wanna hear
about that whole thing but he was a tanker and so he was gonna go to Fort Hood, and I had a
cousin, like a second cousin, who was pretty high up in the Army and was in the military
intelligence and so I had been talking to my parents, I’m like I don’t… maybe my parents, my
parents must have put the idea in my head, like “Let’s just ask him if you can change your
orders.” “Uhm… okay.” and I remember being in class one time, in Pensacola, and somebody
knocked on the door and opened it up and it was somebody in Administration or somebody, and
says “You need to come with me right now.” And as we’re always like, okay, I didn’t say what it
was about or anything and as we were walking he must have said something to me like “I don’t
know who you talked to or what buttons you pushed but the whole unit is up and running around
trying to find you a new assignment because this Colonel from another unit is asking to change
your assignment.” I was like Oh… I didn’t realize that was going to happen and so I went down
to the office and it was him on the phone, and I think I was sort of embarrassed and said “I
don’t… whatever it’s fine.” and he’s like “Well do you want to go to Texas?” and I’m like “I guess,
yeah, that’d be nice.” and he said “Alright, well I’ll see what I can do.” and pretty quickly the
orders were changed to San Antonio, so. So yeah. I went home for… after training was over, I
went home for hometown recruiter, but when I got—I signed up for it, but when I got there, the
recruiter was like “I don’t have any record of you signing up for this, I don’t really have anything
for you to do.” and I was like. Okay. I didn’t know if I was gonna get in trouble for not doing it but
I ended up having four weeks leave at that point because I think I had… maybe it was 2 weeks.
Must have been 2 weeks. A week of leave from just my time in and I was stationed in San
Antonio and my dad was gonna drive me down from Detroit, and it was over Christmas I
remember, and my car broke down on the way there and my dad, we were in Kansas city, and
�Wolfe, Jill
my dad’s like “We’ll just buy this car.” and we went to this dealership and I didn’t have, you
know, any money or, you know, and he co-signed for me and we got a new car, I had a new car
when I arrived in San Antonio. And he must have flown back. And I feel like there was one or
two people that I knew there from AIT, but didn’t know too many people. It was on Kelly Air
Force Base and I found out that when you first get to a duty station you have to spend like four
weeks picking up cigarette butts and washing humvees, but when I got there, there was an
option to work at the gym on post and I was like, okay sure I’ll work there. But it was a night shift
and the kind of bad thing about that was everyone else who was picking up cigarette butts and
washing humvees got to kind of know each other and I never did, I never made any really close
friends there. So I was doing that, working at the gym, and it was a small… the 748th Military
Intelligence Battalion on Kelly Air Force Base, same thing you know, that purple suit, so we had
Navy and Marines there as well and the place where we all worked was another SCIF that was
on Medina… I don’t know what they call it. Medina Air Base? But then I know they train the
military police dogs there. We would drive by and see them train.
And so one day on my day off I went up to headquarters and I said, you know, in high school I
was the newsletter editor—the newspaper editor, and I’ve just always been a writer, I was
talking to the… I think it was Sergeant First Class I think, and you know can I write an article for
the battalion newsletter? And he said “You know what? You can have the whole thing, here’s
the camera, gimmie the paperwork, here. You’re off duty, you’re not gonna work at the SCIF
anymore, you can be our public affairs officer.” Which is crazy, I was an E3 at the time, but he
was close to retirement and hated all of it, hated everything from what I remember he was so
grumpy, and I was like okay! And then I became this news reporter for the battalion and took
over and redesigned the whole thing and got to interview the Commander and got to go out and
take pictures and I had just a ton of freedom and it was really cool. It was awesome, actually,
though I remember one time I made a typo in the Commander’s, the CO’s letter, and I had to
have the righted version printed up, cut it out, and I pasted like 300 cause she didn’t want that
typo on there so I was like alright. But… and I was close to my boyfriend who was in San
Antonio so I would drive up to Fort Hood every weekend, it was about two and a half hours, pick
him up and drive him back because I had my own room because I was on an air force base.
One of the stories I often tell is that we have, you know, we’d have a battalion run once a month
and I remember being out there in the dark and the whole battalion was lined up and our
battalion CO was this... She was probably 5’3”, redheaded, just from Boston and I remember
her being up in front of the entire unit and just saying, “Let’s show the Air Force that the Army is
here to stay.” in this like thick Boston accent and we all just like, came very close to losing it, it
was very funny but… had a really great Command Sergeant Major there and just. It was
awesome, San Antonio’s a beautiful city, tourists, you know, hiked and went to the river walk
and did all this great stuff, my boyfriend was pretty close by. Well, one morning I go out for PT
and I run into one of the administrative guys that was in the unit and he said “Hey!” like, “It’s kind
of awesome, got new orders that came down!” and I said, “New orders?” he’s like “Yeah!” he’s
like, “You’re going to Korea.” and I was like. What? No, everything was perfect, I’d actually I
think gotten engaged at that point much to my parent’s chagrin and so I went to First Sergeant
and I said—cause the people had told me you can ask, for your first time, you can change—and
so I went to First Sergeant and asked him like, “How do I get out of this?” and he said, “Well,
�Wolfe, Jill
you can either get pregnant or smoke pot.” and neither one of those were options for me, so. I
went. (51:21)
Interviewer: Mmhm. All right. So when do you go to Korea?
I left for Korea in…I feel like it must have been April. March or April of ‘97, eloped, decided—my
boyfriend at the time said, “If you go to Korea and anything happens to you, if I’m just your
boyfriend they won’t let me come see you or I will have absolutely no power, we have to get
married, we have to get married.” Again, not wanting to hurt anybody’s feelings, I married him.
Shotgun, yeah, went down to the Justice of the Peace. Actually had had a whole wedding
planned and my mother begged me not to do it so I called off the sort of wedding at home that
we’d had, but then once we got back to San Antonio he convinced me to go down to the Justice
of the Peace and if you’re military you can, you don’t have a waiting period, so we just did it.
(Wolfe sighs heavily.) So, shipped out to Korea. Got there… I remember we stayed in this big
fancy hotel in Seoul, like Seoul was just a… I’d never seen anything like it before. Enormous
city. Again, got there in the middle of the night, it was a long, long flight, and them must’ve taken
a bus out to Camp Humphreys and it was a helicopter base, from what I understand it was the
largest helicopter base outside of the continental United States. And… same thing actually
happened, I was washing humvees and picking up cigarette butts and we were, a bunch of us
were in First Sergeant’s office waiting to get our next assignment, he came out and he said—he
was pissed—he said, “I need some volunteers.” and I had learned very early on civilian world
volunteering people are like “Wow, that’s really great, thank you for doing that!” but the military
was not like that. You often got real shit jobs when you volunteered for stuff so I kind of, like
everybody else, started looking the other and making myself as small as possible, but then he
said “I need somebody, I need two of you to be lifeguards to go off duty and you know get
disconnected, detached from our unit and be lifeguards.” and I thought… hm. That doesn’t
sound too bad. So that’s what happened and went and did this kind of amazing training up in
Seoul at the American school there learning not only how to be a lifeguard but how to train
lifeguards. Took classes, I remember one class we were talking about open head injuries and I
am not really good with blood and stuff and so I ended up passing out in that class. First and
only time that ever happened but, yeah, so then was assigned to one of the three pools we had
on post and got my own apartment off post which was great, unheard of for enlisted to be able
to have that and I worked at the pool and I got to do all sorts of really cool stuff and it was quite
awesome and one of the things that we got to do was they did pilot water emergency training so
they had these big pvc cages that they built with like simulated pilot seats and they’d strap in the
pilots and then put like blacked out goggles over them and push them over backwards into the
water and then they had to get out of the harness and they had like a little oxygen thing. And I
remember they asked us if we wanted to try it and I think they got almost to the point where I
was back and it was like “Stop, stop stop it I can’t do this” so. I didn’t end up doing it. Saved a
couple people who were really struggling, we had Korean augmentees to the US Army who
were Korean soldiers who were stationed on post with us and they were not very good
swimmers and generally speaking, so that felt good, and just had a nice sort of comradery with
my fellow lifeguards who were pulled from units all over the post. (55:23)
�Wolfe, Jill
Interviewer: What unit were you officially serving with?
Third MI Battalion.
Interviewer: Okay.
Bravo company.
Interviewer: So your code breaking career never really went anywhere, then? How long
were you in Korea?
14 months. (55:37)
Interviewer: Okay. Now did you get to travel around in Korea or go anywhere else from
there?
I did, one of the good things about being Korea in a military intelligence unit was that many,
many of my colleagues spoke the language so we got to get on in the economy way more than
probably most American soldiers did, in fact we went to Seoul and we were at the Hard Rock
Cafe, just a quick side story, and the waiter was just so enamored with us and offered to take us
fishing and so we had a whole adventure with him where we taught him how to sing
Clementine? Like, “Oh my darling, oh my darling”—he wanted to learn that so bad and we
traded some, he was a terrible fisherman and we traded, we brought some mountain dews with
us on the fishing trip and we ended up trading our mountain dews for fish when we were at a
fishing place and… yeah, so, I, you know, most American soldiers stay within the sort of
immediate, we call it the ville, it’s just bars and, you know, pawn shops, so.
Interviewer: Well, how far is the base from Seoul?
It was only about 40 miles from what I understand but because of the traffic it took us like an
hour and a half to ride there, and so we would occasionally go there because there was more
shopping and it was just like a vacation. Same thing with Osan Air Base, they had a Mexican
restaurant at Osan, which was an air force base so. Yeah, and I remember when we got there
they told us we would have this thing called the Korean crud because the air quality was so bad
in Korea that when you would breathe it in the first month you would just spend hacking and
coughing until your lungs got used to it. I don’t know if that was a real thing or not, but it seemed
to happen to a lot of people, so.
Interviewer: Okay, now while you were there were there any concerns about what the
North Koreans were doing or anything that might come up?
I don’t remember it being—I mean, so I had a top secret security clearance but I didn’t work in
the SKIF. But I had to go do some training to make sure I was up on my skills or something, and
I would occasionally hear some North Koreans had lobbed a artillery or something over the
�Wolfe, Jill
border. And I remember one time calling my mom when it had been particularly bad and saying
“Don’t worry, I’m all set, I’m fine.” and she was like “What are you talking about?” and I was
really surprised that this had not made the American news, that this had happened. I said,
“Never mind, it’s fine.” so. I remember that you could go up to the DMZ and do a tour of it there
and I had friends that did that and took a video camera with them and came back and we were
watching the video together and it was very very surreal because they filmed the Korean
soldiers on the other side of that room, you know, that has the line down it like this is North
Korea and this is South Korea. I may have, now that I think about it, sort of. There was lots of
stories about North Korean submarines and people getting kidnapped and stuff, so it was very
weird and strange to be in a country that was still at war, and to hear how badly things were up
in the north. We did hear that. But because I worked at the pool, and, you know later once the
pools closed I did spend some time in flight operations so our unit had a, what we called a “fixed
wing”, an airplane. Most of the aircraft on the base were helicopters but they had a signals
collection airplane and so I worked in the battalion operations center making sure the pilots had
their vests and their codes and everything they needed in order to fly, so I did that for a brief
amount of time.
Interviewer: All right, anything else about the Korean stint that stands out in your
memory?
Well my… husband, at the time, he had a two year enlistment. He was a tanker at Fort Hood,
and he was supposed to come over in September and didn’t. October, November, finally he
came over in December and I had my own apartment off post so this worked out pretty well.
And he got there and it was terrible, we fought, he drank a ton, I worked all the time and so I
said “Clearly this is a mistake, you need to go home.” and he agreed and so I sent him home
and then two months later I called him and said, “Guess what? I’m pregnant.” So, yeah. It was
my daughter who is now 23? We would say she was made in Korea, so, yeah. I had thought
maybe I would stay in and maybe become a warrant officer, either do…become a helicopter
pilot or be a linguist, learn a language. But in the end the pregnancy kind of made that
impossible, so.
Interviewer: Okay, alright, well this tape is about up so we are going to pause right here.
Okay.
(The screen briefly cuts to black as the tape is changed.)
Interviewer: Okay, so at this point in your story you’ve been in Korea, you’ve been spent
a lot of it working at the pool, you had your boyfriend come out, mess up the
relationship, get you pregnant, go away. At that point how much time did you have left in
Korea?
Right, he was technically my husband.
�Wolfe, Jill
Interviewer: Yes, yes, he was.
So, yeah. He left in January, I sent him home right after the holidays and my enlistment was up
in May, so I think I had arrived in, like I said, March or April so most tours to Koreas were a 12month tour but they weren’t going to send me to another duty station for 14 months—or, for 2
extra months, so. I ended up being in Korea for 14 months but before he arrived, and remember
I had said that, you know, he was supposed to come in September when his enlistment was up
and September came and October and it wasn’t until…I think it was right after Thanksgiving he
came. During that time, especially there at the end, sort of August, September, I was working at
the pool and I had become very close with the other lifeguards in the pool who were taken from
all units. But there was one in particular, he was from a transportation unit, and when I had kind
of made it clear that I was married and that whatever he thought was gonna happen, like I was
happy to be friends and pal around and, you know, go to the bar, but really wasn’t gonna go
beyond that. And there were two of them, like the three of us were pretty close, and the one guy
was fine with that, and the other guy just really kind of got in his craw about it and the most I sort
of… ignored him, his comments, or rolled my eyes, or tried to find other places to be when he
was there, the more aggressive he got. And the more vulgar he got. And I would come home
from work into—and I’d stop by my old barracks, so I had an apartment off post but my unit, I
was detached from my unit, was still there and I still knew some of the guys over there, and
girls. And I’d stop by in the barracks and have a coke or you know they’d be watching TV and
just be like, it’s just bad. I could just—everything out of his mouth is some sort of snide comment
or judgment about my body or personality, and you know I’m in a swimsuit all day, so… and
they would listen and be like, “Yeah, that sucks.” but after a while I think one of them said, “You
know, Jilly, you come home every day and talk about this, you come over here, maybe you
should do something about it.” and you know, like probably a lot of women at that age and at
that time, I didn’t really want him to get in trouble, I just wanted him to stop. And so, finally I was
convinced because he wouldn’t stop, and I was nervous even getting dressed in the locker room
at the pool, and so I filed a complaint against him. And I was pulled from that pool and put on
duty at another pool, so I was at the main pool, which is a bigger pool. And there was a smaller
pool that was much closer to my unit, so I was put there, but at that time it was… September,
October, we still had the pools open and I just never heard from it again. I don’t know what
happened to him. (1:04:34)
Interviewer: He did not come and harass you after that? Okay. Well that was something.
Yeah, I mean like towards the very end we were at the bar and he did not have a TV, and this is
again before my husband had arrived, and I had this little black and white…older kind of thing,
and I thought maybe if I give him this TV to borrow he’ll lay off. And so… I, what ended up
happening was I stopped by his barracks with the TV and dropped it off and he offered me a
beer, so we were kind of sitting there drinking it and he started kissing me and I like, probably let
it go on a little bit longer than I should have but not too long and I said, “You know what? Nope.”
like “This just is not a good idea and I’m married.” and he didn’t stop, and he kept going, and
finally after getting pretty violent and kicking and pushing and just doing everything I could to get
away from him, like, I did and just ran out of there. And so, I guess like at that point it was like,
�Wolfe, Jill
okay, now he’s never gonna leave me alone. So that’s actually when I ended up sort of filing it
and, you know I had gone not that long ago when I started this job working with military students
here at Grand Valley, I hadn’t really—I mean I’ve always stayed connected with military
nonprofits and the entrepreneurship lab and, but I hadn’t really worked very closely with
veterans and honestly when I started this job it kind of brought up a lot of that kind of stuff and
my students have gone through a lot of that, so I applied to… look into getting, you know,
service connected because it was really hard after that, I mean like… My husband came and I
got pregnant and it was just some really bad, dark years after that, and… and so more recently I
looked into a plot filing a claim, and so we ordered my paperwork to see if there was any record
that I had filed this complaint against him and there wasn’t, so I just decided to never pursue it
anymore. I mean, it was shitty, but I have lived a pretty full and good life and I know there's a lot
of women who have undergone much worse or less worse and just didn’t handle it as well,
didn’t end up being able to process it and didn’t have the support from family and friends to be
able to kind of process it and get past it, so. That’s kind of my story. (1:07:17)
Interviewer: And at least when you did report it there was not retaliation or whatever.
Never saw him again.
Interviewer: And the problem basically got fixed on that level.
Yes, and that’s what I had wanted. I just wanted it to stop, which is why, I mean like looking
back now that could have told my younger self, like, “You make sure you get that shit
documented.” but at the time, like I said, all I wanted was it to stop and that’s what happened
and I spent the rest of my time in Korea—it was not great, you know, like I said I had my
husband came over and we fought the whole time, and by that time almost all of my friends had
since out-processed out and had gone to other duty stations and so I didn’t really know anybody
and I was so ready to leave Korea when I did, so.
Interviewer: Now when you leave Korea, that’s basically the end of your enlistment now?
Mmhm.
Interviewer: Alright, so what’s the discharge process, you know… how did that all work?
Well it’s funny because I hear my students say this a lot, like I just wanted to get out. I was
pregnant so I failed my last PT test and I felt like it just doesn’t even matter. But my parents
were living in DC at the time and I could still get covered under military health insurance so… I
flew back to Michigan to be with my husband, we spent about two weeks there and then moved
to DC where I was at the military hospital there, Bethesda, for maybe a month and a half before
I got health care coverage and ended up having the baby in a civilian hospital, but I don’t
remember a ton about the out-processing, I just wanted out. I was done, I was sad and baby
was not in my… had not been in my plans and so while I had never thought of terminating the
pregnancy, I wasn’t especially excited to have to put college on hold and to also be married to
�Wolfe, Jill
this person who I had clearly gotten married to under the wrong conditions, so. I mean we
ended up staying together for… I think a total of 12 years maybe? And so we had another baby
together and those kids are wonderful and they’re amazing, we got divorced about 8 years ago
after we decided we made better friends than spouses, and so we have a mostly positive
relationship, but at the time getting out of the Army was just total… it was chaos. I remember
being told that because of my security clearance I could get a job in DC working for the national
security agency or any number of security agencies, but I had no idea how to go about that or
who to talk to or where to submit my resume so I worked as a secretary. Came back—had the
baby, came back and started Grand Valley when she was 3 months old, so.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so when did you graduate from Grand Valley?
I graduated in the… was it the Fall? Must have been the Fall of 2001.
Interviewer: Okay.
Right after September 11th. (1:10:40)
Interviewer: Alright. And then what kind of career did you go into?
Well like I said I’d always been a writer, so when I came back to Grand Valley I told the story of
the videos on the 50 for 50. I had Grace, my daughter, and I already had credits here so I came
down and signed up for classes, or I applied and got in and then had to sign up for classes, but I
didn’t know what I wanted to do. I had been an English major when I first started cause I love
writing but it turns out when English you have to read a whole lot and I just want to read the
books that I want to read, I want to read literature so… I thought Health Communications and,
but I had to go see my advisor, and so I remember pulling her up the stairs in Lake Superior Hall
in this huge stoller and just thinking, “What am I doing here?” like “This is nuts, I can go get a
job, this is not for me, none of these students look like me.” and I got to my advisor’s office, you
know, had just been given a piece of paper “Here’s your advisor” and he wasn’t there. And so I
think I was crying and the woman across the hall, the faculty member, her name was Betty
Pritchard, came out to see what was wrong. Lavished praise and adoration all over my child
which never hurts, “Beautiful baby, oh my God, come on in.” and she was an advertising NPR
professor? And she’s like, “Well if you’re a writer, PR might be for you.” and I was like, okay.
And turns out it was a great career for me and I did great at school and I got an internship at a
PR agency and the internship turned into a job offer, and it was the same job offer that my
fellow interns got who were 4 or 5 years younger than me? And I was like, “I have military
experience, I’ve been a Public Affairs Officer.” and they begrudgingly gave me like another
thousand dollars a year, but… Like, military service, like when I was at Grand Valley I thought I
was the only Veteran here. There was nothing for veterans, so. But it was weird being in class, I
remember the first class was an art history class, I sat at the very front of the classroom, got
there 10 minutes early, nobody’s there. Once the class starts everybody’s—people were talking
behind me and I’m like… “You’re gonna get kicked out of this!” like what’s your—I am here to
learn! You don’t know what I’ve been through to be here so just shut up everybody! And so I
�Wolfe, Jill
was married and I had a kid and that helped me not feel quite so isolated but it was, ugh, being
the military was weird and people didn’t know how to take it and especially being female, I think
back then it was just not as normal, so. So yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. So, you basically go into kind of a PR career, was that?
Yeah. So they hired me at the PR agency, from there I got a job offer to go work in corporate
PR at a automotive manufacturer which mostly turned into internal communications, so writing
the employee newsletter and stuff and, yeah worked in several different corporate PR
departments before deciding to—through a business plan competition that was just for female
military veterans, which was awesome, I thought my chances are great at winning this, and I
did. So I got some money and started my own business. First it was a organization—it was a
company called Outdoor Book Club where I would take women hiking and backpacking and
we’d talk about a book, and then that turned into a team building company and then when the
pandemic hit, of course team building was no longer something companies wanted to pay for
and, but this position at Grand Valley as the Military and Veterans Resource Manager came up
and I had been volunteering—well I guess they pay me a little bit of money to facilitate the
Michigan Veterans Entrepreneur Lab, and I was a business owner and I was a veteran, and so I
did that. And so when this position opened up I had already had experience at Grand Valley, by
that time I had gotten divorced and remarried to a faculty member here, my kids were going
here and so having the opportunity to come and work with military veterans here at Grand
Valley seemed weird but also totally obvious and like there’s no other way it could have been.
And it’s been—I’ve been here… a year and a half probably and it’s been the best 18 months of
my career, I love working with veterans, I love their stories. A lot of them have heard the stories
that I’ve told on this tape, it’s been incredible. (1:15:41)
Interviewer: What kinds of things do you actually do in this job?
I—basically anything veterans need in order to be successful at school, I’m here to help. So a
lot of professionals that have my job at other schools do work with the VA to certify GI Bill
benefits; I don’t have to do that, which is great, it’s one of the awesome things about Grand
Valley. We have a whole team in the registrar’s office that does nothing but certify GI Bill
benefits. So my job is basically to connect them: one of my favorite things to do is connect them
with internships and employers that are looking for really, really good people that have
incredible experiences, so I just last night connect an Army veteran who's graduating with like a
3.98 in his history education and he’s teaching in a long-term sub and he loves it and I said,
“Well is there a district that you want to work in?” He’s like, “Well I really like to work in this one
district.” and I’m like “Great! I know a history teacher in this district. You guys should have
coffee.” and so doing that kind of stuff is kind of my favorite, but I also plan events, pizza parties,
working on an initiative right now to get more veterans into leadership. So senior leadership,
executive positions, how do we give them the civilian skills, how do we translate their military
experiences into civilian advantages for companies and nonprofits, so. If, you know, we have
some active duty reservists, if they’re getting deployed I make sure that their professors know
what their options are as far as taking classes. I did get a call from a student the other night,
�Wolfe, Jill
night before last, “I’m failing all of my classes, here we are in December, can I drop them?” Well,
let's sit down and talk about what your options are. So I also work with the military spouses and
dependents, so if they’re needing scholarships or, you know, whatever it is that I can point them
to, I’m basically like a triage for helping them get their problems solved.
Interviewer: Alright. Well we’re certainly glad to have you here, we now have a pretty
substantial Student Veteran Cohort. Some of them wind up making it in the mainstream
warfare class, and some of them usually survive.
(Wolfe laughs.)
Interviewer: But, yeah, I’d suffice to close here by thanking you for taking the time to
share the story today.
It was my pleasure. (1:18:15)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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WolfeJ2386V
Creator
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Wolfe, Jill H.
Date
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2021-12
Title
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Wolfe, Jill (Interview transcript and video), 2021
Description
An account of the resource
Jill Wolfe was born in December 1975 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma to a mother who worked as an art therapist and a father who worked negotiating contracts. She moved to St. Louis, Missouri when she was 3, and moved again to Troy when she was 15 where she stayed until she graduated high school in 1994. Wolfe applied to and was accepted by both Michigan State University and Grand Valley State University. Several weeks before she was meant to leave for Grand Valley, her mother said she should join the Army instead, but she refused. Her father was in ROTC during Vietnam and his older brother was a career officer for 25 years, but Wolfe does not consider herself to come from a military family. After a lackluster semester of college, Wolfe came into contact with a recruiter following an argument with her parents about them wanting her to get a job to pay for her tuition, or else they would not send her back for a second semester. She originally was uninterested in the pitch but said she “...didn’t want to disappoint anyone” and left to think about it further, settling that service was a potential solution to her monetary issues. Her ASVAB score qualified her for several high-clearance positions of which she selected Non-morse Communications Specialist which would take 3 years. Wolfe was shipped out in 1995 to a holding unit in Fort Jackson, South Carolina before later being transported to boot camp in the same state, she recalls boot camp as being the most physically exhausted she has ever been “aside from giving birth” and Wolfe waited several weeks before being sent to San Antonio, Texas due to clearance issues. She was later sent to Camp Humphreys near Seoul, South Korea with the 3rd MI Battalion Bravo Company for 14 months on orders in 1997. In Korea, Wolfe volunteered as a lifeguard at a nearby pool and remembers being able to own an apartment off post and enjoying the thriving city life. 3 months before the end of her term in Korea, Wolfe found out she was pregnant and was forced to discharge and return home. Wolfe returned to Grand Valley and graduated in 2001, going on to work in PR and eventually become the Military and Veterans Resource Manager at Grand Valley where she continues to work today, assisting veterans in their schooling.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/359bbc0962780fea81924a509e591798.mp4
30170401f18ddc4ccb3d0414c9cab808
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7dd9a4f50a9b41d1dcfaa5af6361af07.pdf
71505ec4049c93b7f80df504897391b0
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Lee Widjeskog
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: We are talking today with Lee Widjeskog of Bridgeton, New Jersey and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, Lee, can you start us off on some background on yourself? But to begin
with, where and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born in Bridgeton, New Jersey. Raised in the little town of Rosenhayn, which is
about…oh, maybe 7-8 miles away. And I grew up there, went to school and graduated from high
school at Bridgeton High School then from there I ended up—
Interviewer: What year did you graduate from high school?
Veteran: I graduated in 1964.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did your family do for a living while you were growing up?
Veteran: My father was a carpenter. Often, he was a construction foreman. They did—work that
he did with a lot of schools, commercial buildings…Actually, he started his career working on
the Delaware Memorial Bridge as a laborer. So, he’s been all—he got around quite a bit. He
originally came from Finland in 1937. And then, he ended up—actually, he ended up in the
Army. He got drafted like a lot of other people and got his citizenship. My mother lived, was
raised and born, just about a quarter mile from where I live today. And that’s how my father met
�2
her because his sister lived across the street from where we live now. And there weren’t many
people around and so they hooked up and eventually got married. And then, my dad built a house
after I was born and its long part of the estate. So, that’s…and we have a—we had about a 20acre piece of ground. Mom and dad had a cow because we had our own milk, made butter. And
then, in the ‘50s everybody in that area of south Jersey was raising chickens because there was
big money in eggs. So, they put up a chicken coop, had 500 chickens, and we would pick the
eggs and, you know, clean out the chicken coop every other year because then the chickens get
too old, you know, and all that.
Interviewer: Now, is that area still fairly rural? Or is it more built up now? (00:02:23)
Veteran: Well, it’s more built up but compared to everything else it is still pretty rural. The land I
have—I have now bought the land from my parents and it’s 2 acres less, but my sister has a
house in a lot. But right around us it hasn’t changed a whole lot. In fact, across the street where
my aunt and uncle lived, the state bought that and tore the house down, so it is a nice view now.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, we have gotten—it’s getting better.
Interviewer: Alright, so it is not necessarily what one thinks of when one thinks of New
Jersey if you are an outsider. It is not all built up and paved.
Veteran: No. When I went to college, people—when they said, “Where you from?” I said, “New
Jersey.” “No, where did you grow up?” I said, “New Jersey.” “But you don’t talk right.” I said,
“Well, I was from the southern part of the state.” I said, “We talk more like Philadelphia.” “Ah,
you know, how come you don’t say Jersey and have a harsh accent?” I said, “That’s New York
area.”
�3
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: So…
Interviewer: So, where did you go to college?
Veteran: I ended up going to college at Colorado State University.
Interviewer: Okay. And how did you wind up there?
Veteran: I went there because I wanted to major in wildlife management and wildlife biology.
And when I was looking through the brochures, because I asked my counselor in school and they
said—they gave me a blank look and said, “Here. Well, take these brochures and look through
here.” And I came up with about 5 or 6 different schools. Some I eliminated, one eliminated me
because I wasn’t southern enough and this is back in the ‘60s when racial things were going on.
So, they just didn’t want to deal with anybody from the north. And then, I got it down to the
three schools that had the curriculum that looked like I’d be really interested in were Colorado
State, University of Montana, and the Utah State. And I ended up at Colorado State, which I
liked the best out of the three but they were the only school that would allow—and this is ’64—
that would take—actually, in ’63—that would take an application from a non-resident prior to
graduation. So, the other two schools I had to graduate and then apply. So, I applied to Colorado
State in January. They accepted me and I never applied anywhere else. I figured that’s good.
Interviewer: Alright. (00:04:42)
Veteran: And I went—the first time I saw the campus was the day I signed the papers when I got
there in September. And my mother drove me out, said—got me to my dorm, said, “Well, see
you later! See you at Christmas time.” And that was…and that’s the way it was. We didn’t…it
�4
was not expensive by today’s terms but, you know, fairly reasonable and I worked in the
summers. My parents paid for most of it. And that’s where I started.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you required to do an ROTC program because it was a land
grant school? Or…?
Veteran: There was…they gave you an option and you could do either ROTC or you could do
phys ed for the first two years. Well, I looked at things. I said, “Alright. I know, you know,
everybody is subject to the draft in those days. Had to sign up when you turned 18. So, I figured
well, I don’t see any reason why I won’t get drafted at some point. So, I may as well sign up for
ROTC. It gives me a little more of a cushion because you got a better deferment.” So, I signed up
for ROTC. And then—and it’s really not signed up as such the first two years. All it is is taking
the courses. But at the end of the second year, then you have to sign commitment papers and you
will say I am signed up and I am going in the Army. And at that point, if you drop out of school
you immediately go into the Army. You know, or if you flunk out, you immediately go to the
Army. So, I signed those papers but the advantage of that is they also paid me 50 bucks a month,
which is—when you consider that my tuition for a quarter, and we were in a quarter—I think—
system, was $1300 a quarter, 50 bucks a month is a pretty nice chunk of change.
Interviewer: Yeah. You could buy a fair amount of food or whatever else. (00:06:38)
Veteran: Yeah. And so, I signed up. And I also participated in one of the—they had a ranger
section, so I participated in that. And then I also ended up participating in a drill team for a little
bit. I don’t know how I got in these things but…somebody else would say, “Oh yeah, we are
doing this. This would be good.” I’d say, “Oh, good idea! I will try that.” And so, that’s what I
did. And then finally, I had some trouble in school. There were courses I…you know, some of
�5
the math courses were killing me. I finally got through them and then I had to take a soils course.
It’s a six hour course and, you know, you went everyday and it was…I really had a tough time so
I had to take that over. So, when I am taking these other courses, I ended up going a little longer
than I would have. So, I ended up actually going for an extra two quarters. So, I didn’t graduate
until March of ’69.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Now, one of the things the Army does: you also have to spend six weeks in basic
training for officers.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, at what—now, is this after you graduate or while you are still in
ROTC?
Veteran: While you are still in ROTC. And so, I did that in the summer of ’68. And I went down
to Fort Riley, Kansas. So…and it was very interesting. You know, it’s basic training. They
make—it’s probably a little different for officers than it is for the rest of the men, but it was six
weeks and then it was over with. And then I came back to school and in the meantime, they said,
you know, they are saying, “Okay, what units—where would you—what would you like to serve
in? Would you like to be in artillery? Chemical corps? MPs?” You know, they have all—they
have the list of different units. (00:08:34)
Veteran: And the colonel that was in charge of our unit said, “Oh yeah boys, get your three
selections.” You know, it is a wish list. He said, “But you have to have a combat branch as either
your first or second choice.” Which I found out was not true, but I didn’t know that at the time.
So, I looked at the different combat branches and I really wasn’t interested in anything. I said,
“Well, infantry—that’s close to what I could understand.” You know, I run around the woods all
�6
the time. I’ll try this infantry. I put that second. I think my first choice was…I think I asked for
chemical corps. My third choice was MP. And I was looking—and those I picked based on what
I thought I would be doing after I left the Army because I was—I had worked two summers with
New Jersey Fish and Game and I worked a bit with chemicals in actually foliage control, which
really, you know, it turns out Agent Orange is a—that’s a fairly good mix. And then, I also knew
that if I couldn’t get a job as a biologist, I could probably get a job as a conservation officer so if
I got in the MPs, that would give me a background to make me more desirable when I went to
look for a job. So, I was—and then the infantry was…I didn’t see myself riding around in tanks
or I didn’t like the artillery, engineers…
Interviewer: You had enough of the math at that point? (00:10:03)
Veteran: Yeah. Although in reality, none of that would have happened but it’s just the concept
and that’s how it…So, needless to say, I was fortunate enough to get infantry.
Interviewer: Okay. I want to back up a little bit here. What did the ROTC curriculum
actually consist of? Because first years are classroom? Or…?
Veteran: Most of it is classroom. Every year is classroom. You know, there is some drilling but
it’s classroom work. They go over the basic Army procedures, they, you know, they do stuff on
some of the, you know, tactics. But it is very, very broad. And you learn, you know, what’s
expected of officers and how to treat the enlisted men. And you know, some people don’t pay
attention to that but—and that’s—it’s very basic information. And if you remember everything,
you’re good. And then when you go to the basic course in the field, then you actually get to call
in air strikes, adjust artillery, and things like that. And they don’t just let you call in air strikes;
they got somebody listening to make sure you give the right coordinates and, you know. But—
�7
and so, you get a feel for what’s going on. And you also try out the various armaments that you
are likely ton encounter. By that time, I knew I was going to be infantry, so they gear you
towards that. And then when you graduate, on graduation—because I graduated in March, there
was no ceremony for the school. But the Army had a ceremony for those of us who were going
to be officers. They had…they, you know, gave us our bars and our commission. And then, and
the first orders. And the first orders said, “Show up to Fort Benning.”
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: At Fort Benning, they rehash everything you did for four years. They do it in nine
weeks.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had mentioned that when you did your original sort of basic
stuff at Fort Riley, you had the impression maybe that it was a little more laid back than it
might be somewhere else? Or…? (00:12:08)
Veteran: Yeah. And I—only from what I heard afterwards. You know, to me it was not stressful.
There was no big deal about it, so it was just…
Interviewer: And when you were doing that, that was all ROTC guys?
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They were all guys from different schools, some from the same school. But…and it,
you know, and we ended up—you know—you could see…You end up having, even though we
are only together for six weeks, our company ended up having a little bit more of a spree. We got
together, we were being inspected by some second lieutenant, ROTC probably, giving us a ration
�8
of crap about, you know, “You got gnarlies under the bunkbeds.” You’d say, “Gnarlies?” “Yeah,
dust stuff.” “Oh, dust bunnies?” “Gnarlies. They are gnarlies.” They gave us a—and so we had to
clean the whole place over again, you know, that kind of thing, and then wax the floor. They
were planning to tear these buildings down at the end of the year but nothing new. But as a result
of that, one of the guys in the group, he was very good at caricatures. And so, they made a
banner and had a caricature on there. We called ourselves “The Gnarlies” and from that point—
and we carried that with us wherever we went. And that’s that. And so, whenever we competed
with anybody, you know, it was always “Go gnarlies!” And so, you know, which is what the
Army really wants. They like the fact that you—everybody is working together. And it was just
interesting. We did, you know, we took it he was challenging us in one way, but we took it that
way. It worked out very well, you know. So, we had a—overall, we had a fine time.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you are going through college and you’re going through ROTC at
the time when Vietnam really happens. Because in ’64, we didn’t really have ground troops
in the mix because—
Veteran: Right, and I can tell you that in ’64 I did not really anticipate going. They can send me
some place, but I didn’t really think I was going to be getting shot at. Not ’64. But…
Interviewer: Now, did you pay any attention to those developments as they unfolded?
(00:14:16)
Veteran: I was paying more attention, yes. And after a while, by the time ’68 rolled around, I
said, “Oh…This is going to be very interesting.” And I…and the fact that I had to go an extra
couple months in school did not disappoint me, you know, because I was thinking, “Well, maybe
they will finally get this thing settled and I’ll, you know, I’ll miss it.” I wasn’t anxious to go out
�9
and get shot at or, you know. But I, you know, and then they did the lottery in ’69. Well, I was
already signed up, so it didn’t matter. But I never—people said, “What was your number?” I
said, “I don’t care.” I didn’t want to know.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now, take us through the infantry basic school at Fort Benning.
What was that experience like?
Veteran: That was…it was interesting. It’s very similar to the…to our, you know, our other
officer training that I had at Fort Riley. But the biggest difference was I didn’t have to stay in the
barracks because you were now officers so you went to—you could go to the officer barracks or,
I was married at the time, so I went home to be with my wife and then we’d come back in the
morning. Of course, it would be early. And there’s lots of PE but I had always been pretty well in
that. I ran cross country in high school so, you know, people are dying on the run and I was
“Yeah, I’ll run some more.” So, it—you know, that part was kind of fun. We ended up with a
captain of our company who had been a staff sergeant in Vietnam and got a field commission to
captain. And then they brought him in, brought him back to go through the officer basic training.
But since he was there, they also made him in charge of our company. And he was a very
interesting person. And we did some field training exercises with tactics and whatnot and he was
in charge. And we were doing, you know, setting up ambushes and stuff like this. And working
with him, you just—you really felt like here’s a guy who knew what he was doing, and you felt
that whatever he decided was going to be right. And I thought about it years later, I said, “You
know, if I was assigned to him, I would have been very happy.” I also felt that if I was assigned
to him, I probably wouldn’t have survived because he was doing stuff that was dangerous, but he
was good at it. (00:16:43)
Interviewer: Mhmm.
�10
Veteran: And I—he was supposed to be going back to ‘Nam after—he wanted to. He was—and I
never—I couldn’t remember his name and I don’t know whatever happened to him but
apparently somebody said he was up for, you know, Medal of Honor. You know. And if you
were field promoted from E-6, you did something in the field, you know, that probably would
rank pretty high.
Interviewer: Do you have a sense of how old he was at the time that you worked with him?
Veteran: I had a—he…to me, he felt much older than us. I don’t know how old he was. But I
would say he was probably just about—he was much more worldly than the rest of us. You could
see that. Not only in his Army knowledge but, you know, when he talked about women and
things like that, it was like, “Okay, he has been around a lot longer than the rest of us have.” But
he probably was only was couple years older, if that. You know, he might have been about…he
might have been 24. You know. We were all, you know, 22, 23.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, with your group, did you have reserve officers? Or…?
Academy people? Did you have anyone else with you?
Veteran: It—we were…No, we didn’t have academy—academy people always went together.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we had all—as far as I know—they were all reserve officers. And we also had
some foreign officers that were training with us. We had some from Nicaragua, Honduras, Laos.
And so, they were taking the training with us. We got to know those guys off and on. But that
was pretty much it. We were from all over. Talked to different guys, got to know them. They
were from Michigan and California and some from Jersey and some from Nebraska. You know,
it was a very homogenous mix.
�11
Interviewer: Now, were most of the people training you people who had already been to
Vietnam? I mean, your company commander was but…Or…? (00:18:41)
Veteran: Well, for the NCOs, yes. For the officers, no. The—in fact, one of the training
officers—one of the guys who was like an executive officer for the training companies was
actually somebody I saw in Vietnam later on. He was just a little bit ahead of us, so he had
already taken his training, so they kept him over to be executive officer and then that was just
stateside. He ended up over in ‘Nam the same time I did. When I seen him later on, I thought, oh
look, he was in charge of me. “Hey, is that you?” He said, “Oh yeah, that was me.” Of course, he
didn’t remember me.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: But…
Interviewer: Now, with a course like that, do most of the people who start basic course, do
they finish it? Or do they do something—
Veteran: Yeah, I would say. Yeah, 95%. Actually, if someone didn’t finish it, it might be because
some physical ailment showed up that…and if it was to the point you couldn’t finish the course,
it wasn’t, you know, unbearable. It was just that you were going to be drummed out of the Army
because you weren’t physically fit. I don’t know of anybody who…I never heard of anybody
who did not complete the course or quit the course. The option of quitting the course was to go—
you’d be drafted, so…
Interviewer: Well, or get—I know guys who did that and got—and went straight to
Vietnam so… (00:20:07)
�12
Veteran: Yeah. And we did have—and you had your orders when you got there so you knew
where you were going next. And my orders were to go to Fort Polk, Louisiana. And the big
issue—the big thing I remember about this: I was there, you know, and they are paying me. This
is my first full-time job. You know, I’ve had summer jobs but now I’ve got a full-time job. I get
a paycheck every month; this is really neat. And here they are, they are paying me temporary
duty pay to be there for that 9 weeks. So, I get another $11 a day I am there. It was like oh man,
all this money. And so, as we are getting close to graduation for the unit, guys are saying, “Well
you know, they got other courses. You can sign up for Ranger school, you can sign up for
airborne, you can sign up for heavy mortar platoon leader school.” And so, I said, “Yeah…” So,
I signed up for airborne. I said, “I’ll jump out of an airplane.” I had no interest in doing that, but
it was $11 a day and 3 weeks a course, you know. And it’s a lot of running and again, it’s
nothing that you can’t handle. And so, went through jump school. Made my 5 jumps, got my
wings. And I also, then, I tried to sign up for the heavy mortar platoon leader school. And my
point of doing that was because I wanted to have more experience directing fire. And I thought
well, maybe there is a chance I will be assigned to heavy mortars and I know they are pretty far
in the rear. But you know, I didn’t expect that one to happen, but I was more interested in getting
the experience firing. And—but it turns out, that’s a 5-week course and it started every 5 weeks.
Well, I took a—I should have signed up for that first, then I could have signed up for airborne
because they started that every week. But I didn’t so I wasn’t able to. And so, I ended up going
back down to Fort Polk. And I had actually considered Ranger school for a bit, but that’s a 10week course. Most of the time you are away from home and I hadn’t been married that long. I
said, “Nah, nah, nah. I am not doing that. I am going to stay.” So, if I hadn’t been married, I
probably would have tried Rangers, you know. (00:22:19)
�13
Interviewer: Now, ideally you could string together enough schools that it’s all over by the
time you are done. But…
Veteran: Yeah, probably.
Interviewer: But going that way…Okay, so now you go down to Fort Polk. So, how long
was the course at Fort Benning? The infantry basic is…is it 3 months? Or…?
Veteran: It was 9 weeks.
Interviewer: 9 weeks, okay. And so, then you have like 3 more weeks for jump school?
Veteran: Yeah. So, I end up in Fort Polk around in the beginning of August.
Interviewer: Okay, so it’s not…it’s ’69? Yeah.
Veteran: Pardon?
Interviewer: ’69? Yeah, okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Now, Fort Polk, Louisiana in August. So, what was that like?
Veteran: It was warm. It was humid. And it was considered by the people who are in the Army
full—for life, or for their whole career—they considered going to Vietnam and going to Fort
Polk as 2 hardship tours in a row. That’s how much they thought of Fort Polk. They didn’t really
care for it. So, I heard all the scuttlebutt. And you know, I—when my wife and I drove down
to—we drove into Leessville and it’s not a place you want to take your wife through because
she’s just, you know, she’s just getting used to being in the service with you and you go in there
and there is nothing but—at that time—it was nothing but the strip joints and bars and pawn
�14
shops and sleezy motels, you know? She says, “Aw, we can’t be living here.” You know? We
went into the post and they said, “Well, there is no on post housing for junior officers.” But they
had—there were trailer parks around. We ended up renting a mobile home, which was much
nicer. It turned out to be fine. And as I—so, I get there, and I am talking to the other officers that
I had met in officer basic. And they—some of these guys were much more knowledgeable and
then too, you know, they had relatives in the Army, so they knew what was happening. They said
they had already got the scuttlebutt. They said, “Oh,” they said, “yeah, the worst assignment out
there is Tiger Ridge. It’s 30 miles from post and you’re in the woods all the time.” And you
know, so I heard the scuttlebutt. (00:24:26)
Veteran: And so, we are sitting around—we are sitting, me and the colonel, who is giving us our
assignments. And one guy gets an assignment and he’s got training company and somebody else
has got a machine gun range. And somebody else has the hand grenade range and another guy
has another training company. And he finally gets to Widjeskog, which is always the end of the
line.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And he says—he couldn’t say my name—but that’s…I didn’t notice that as anything
special. If he said it right the first time, I would have been really surprised. But he says,
essentially, he says, “Widjeskog, hi. I see that you have a degree in wildlife biology, so I am
going to send you where there is a lot of wildlife. I am going to send you to Tiger Ridge.” I am
thinking, oh good. So, I end—so I report to Tiger Ridge the next day. It turned out to be the best
assignment I could have ever asked for. I worked essentially half a day on Wednesday, day and
night Thursday/Friday, and then turned the company back to their company commander on noon
at Saturday. And then I—unless I was officer of the day, I was off until the following
�15
Wednesday. So, it was like I got all this down time. So, my wife and I, we’d go down to—drive
down to Houston, we’d go to Mobile. Go visit people, because I’d have 3-4 days off.
Interviewer: Okay. And what were you actually doing on Tiger Ridge?
Veteran: In Tiger Ridge, I worked with 2 NCOs who had been to Vietnam. And these were guys
who had probably another 3 or 4 months to go when they got to out there. And they were not
happy campers. But they worked with me well. They had a bigger problem with the first
sergeant, which is usually the case, because I wasn’t going to give them any brassy shit, I’m the
new guy. (00:26:15)
Veteran: But they are showing me this is what we do, this is where you…And we set up
ambushes and we set up booby traps and then we’d run the troops through it. These things, we’d
set them up and ambush. And then we’d have a, you know, tell them how to set up a perimeter at
night and have them digging foxholes and, you know, telling them to be quiet at night and that
you’re going to be—you may have situations where the NVA or VC will be out hollering at you
and trying to locate your position. And so, you know, and that’s what we did. And we lived in
tents for the time we were out there. But it was, you know, avoided the snakes and it was fine.
Interviewer: Okay. So, and of course you are on a ridge so at least you’re not on the
swamp.
Veteran: That’s right. It was nice high ground.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: Pretty much. There was creeks and then the first day I was out there, you know, I saw
all the poisonous snakes in North America, except for the coral snake. I saw that a couple weeks
�16
later. So, there’s plenty of poisonous snakes. And I had—when they told me, “Eh, you got to
watch out for the snakes,” and I am thinking oh yeah, they told me that in Fort Benning; I
couldn’t find a poisonous snake and I traipsed through the woods. Out there? Oh, man. Our
biggest problem was the recruits. We’d catch these little pigmy rattlers and then they’d milk
them and keep them for pets. So, you know they’d have 8-inch, 10-inch rattlers they
would…And then, they’d also catch scorpions and put them in their earplug containers and have
them in their epaulettes, they were going to take them back with them, you know. So, we were
having to check these guys all the time and had to release the wildlife. But these are 18-year-old
kids. You know, some of them first time in the wild and other ones wouldn’t touch them but you
know, it’s like, “Oh, wildlife!”
Interviewer: Yeah. Now, what kind of attitude did you observe among the recruits?
Because this is now 1969 and most—a lot of draftees. (00:28:09)
Veteran: They seemed to be pretty basic, you know. You know, they are—they didn’t have
a…They were, “Aw, we got to do this.” You know? They paid—some of them paid close
attention, others just did what they had to. But we never had any real problem. The only problem
we ever had was when we were doing, you know, trying to get them to give up their positions on
the perimeters. They’d start hollering at us sometimes. And then they’d throw rocks at us. And
we’d holler back, “You quit throwing those rocks or we are going to throw a grenade simulator.”
Well, a grenade simulator you don’t hear it until it goes off. So, you don’t want to be too close to
that. So, we had one time we threw a grenade simulator and it fell in their foxhole. We hear these
guys scrambling out of it and that thing goes off. And it’s raining more rocks at us. But you
know, but that was it. The troops were basically…they were pretty good. The NCOs I worked
with, they had issues with the first sergeant but the two of my guys, we got along well. And we
�17
worked everything out. So, but we did all sorts of things like, you know, how to search a village.
And we never—I never searched a village again. You know? And detecting booby traps and we
didn’t have any booby traps out when we were in the jungle where we were at that time. So, you
know, the ambush was one thing that we did do. But a lot of the stuff that we were doing there
was just…It was geared for the southern part and I Corps was just a different area. I mean, it
was…
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, and particularly once you get up in the hills. If you were down
more—closer to the coast, you’d run into more of the other kind of stuff.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: But in the area that you wound up it was quite different. Yeah and of course
Vietnam was just so different from one area to another, it is hard to plan for the whole
thing. (00:30:06)
Veteran: Yeah, and nobody realized that. I didn’t realize it. And even the Army, who should
have realized it, they geared their training for where most of the trick work had been. And I think
most of the people who were going over at that time, a high percentage of them were going to be
still in the lowlands and that area because they weren’t going to the mountains. But we didn’t—
but then, things were getting hot up in I Corps so…
Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, when do you finish the assignment at Fort Polk?
Veteran: I finished that in the beginning of early in February. And then I had a 30-day leave and
so my wife and I drove home. And by this time, she’s 9 months pregnant. And so, she had—our
daughter was born on the 11th of March and I was due to leave for jungle school on the 17th of
March. So, I got…And I assumed—and then my orders said, “Jungle school and then Vietnam.”
�18
So, I said goodbye to my wife and daughter and my parents and everybody. Took off, went down
to the canal zone where they had jungle training for 2 weeks. Finished jungle training and then
they said, “Alright, you have 6 days to get from here to Fort Ord. Go ahead. We will see you
later.” Well, I said, “6 days?” There was airplanes. I went home.
Interviewer: Right. What was the jungle school like?
Veteran: Jungle school was…kind of neat. We did a little bit of ambushing but mostly it was just
a lot of walking through the jungle, getting hot and sticky and they were showing you plants that
you could eat and, you know, what you had to avoid. And talking about ways that you could
survive in the jungle if you should be, you know, cut off from rations and…and for the most part,
most of us did not expect that would ever happen. And that’s pretty much true. But the Army
wanted to make sure that the officer—and it was primarily officers that went through it. They did
have some NCOs—but they wanted to make sure that the officers had some background. And I
think the other thing is it gave you a little more chance to get used to the hot weather before you
got there. So, you know, to me it was I got to see tree sauce and, you know, it was…I was having
a good time identifying things.
Interviewer: Right. So, for a wildlife biologist, it’s not a bad job. (00:32:41)
Veteran: Yeah. It was—yeah, I was having a good time. So far, the Army was doing good for—
by—me.
Interviewer: Okay, so now you go. You go home again, you get out to Fort Ord, California.
Did you spend much time there or…?
Veteran: I ended up being there for 12 hours. Turns out, I got there before my flight left but it
was due to leave in an hour, but they wouldn’t let me board. They said, “No, we have already—
�19
we went ahead and filled it. You’ll have to wait.” I said, “Oh gee whiz, I am sorry.” They said,
“The next flight will be out in 12 hours.” So, I stayed in the airport for 12 hours, got on the
following flight. And this flight flew from Fort Ord to Alaska, and then from Alaska to Okinawa,
and from Okinawa went to Vietnam. And I was—if I had gotten the flight I was scheduled, I
would have been on with a lot of the officers that I had trained with because they were all due
about the same time. But because I missed that flight, I ended up going with a lot of enlisted
men. So, you know, I was one of the few officers I think on board, but it didn’t matter, you
know. Everybody—the guys were all having a good time. And they had a good time going to
Alaska and they had a god time going to Okinawa and they had a good time with going to
Vietnam. And we hit Vietnam coast just as we are getting to dusk. And you could—as we hit
the—you know, flew over the ground, you look down and all of a sudden you got craters
everywhere. And we are going down to Tan Son Nhut Airbase. You know, and it—you look
down there and there’s craters, craters, craters, just, you know, all over the place. And at that
point, everyone—the plane really got quiet. (00:34:22)
Veteran: You know, it just—everybody shut up because they are all looking at—like, “Oh…shit.
We are here now. The fun is over.” And then we got off the plane. Well, you’ve been on this
plane for 14 hours. You step out and it’s just like a wall of humidity just…Okay. And then they
hustle us off into a bus and I don’t believe it was air conditioned. Probably wasn’t. And we got
on there and you got the chain link fence over the windows. And one of the guys—as we are
getting on there—one of the guys says, “Is that to keep us in?” I said, “No, that’s to keep the
grenades out.” “Oh…” So, it was—and by this time, it is dark, you know. And then they drove
us by bus over to the barracks. And then I—that’s when I—and then the next day, I found a…I
located some of the guys that I had been training with and I found my orders up on the board and
�20
they said, “Yeah, your orders are up there.” That’s when I found out I was going to be a platoon
leader for alpha company 2506, 101st. I mean you know, for me that was fine. And I talked to
one of the guys, Bob McMann, and I said, “Where are you going, Bob?” “I am going to the 101st.
I will be up at the Camp Evans.” I said, “Oh, me too.” I said, “What are you going to do?” He
says, “I’ll be PX officer.” I said, “PX officer?” I said, “You are infantry.” He said, “PX officer.”
I said, “Wow.” You know, I did not know that they were giving us 6 months in the field, 6
months in the rear. I had no knowledge of that. Other guys, some guys, knew it but you know,
that was never discussed when I, you know, in my circle. So, I just figured well, I’ll be infantry
officer for a year. And I couldn’t believe that he was going to be a PX officer for a year.
(00:36:12)
Interviewer: Right. Now, when you are…When you got there, did they sort of ask you
anything like well, which unit do you want to go to? Or are they just telling you?
Veteran: No, there was no asking. They just—they had it up on the board and here you go.
Interviewer: And did you have any sense of what the difference was between one unit and
another, at that point?
Veteran: No. To me it was just 101st? That sounds good. I’ve heard of them. As for platoon
leader, okay, I knew that was what I was going to do so to me it was like okay. You know, give
me an assignment.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, they—how did they get you up to Camp Evans?
Veteran: From there, seems to be they probably—I think we took a…I want to say we took a C130 to Da Nang. I believe that’s what we did. And then we picked a chinook up from there and
that took us up to either Camp Eagle or Evans, and I don’t recall now. And if it was Camp Eagle,
�21
then they would have dropped—taken us…I think it was Evans because I think we got to Evans
in the chinook. And that was my first experience with a chinook, and I didn’t like it and I never
did like it from then on. It was very noisy, vibrated like crazy, and if you were on the ground, it
threw dust and sand all over you. You know, just a really tough machine to be near. But we got
there and then they enrolled us in SERTS, which is the Screaming Eagle Replacement Training.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And so, that’s…We did that for the next 2 weeks and that was interesting. And the
purpose of that, they told us, was to give you a chance to get used to the weather before they sent
you out into the bush.
Interviewer: Now, physically, does your body have to adjust to all of this? Or is your—
Veteran: Yeah, I think for a lot of people. It depends on what you do for—in your regular life. I
mean, I worked on the marshes of New Jersey, you know, in 100-degree weather and the
humidity there is more than hot. So, it’s—most of it to me was oh yeah, it’s hot. It’s humid. I—
psychologically, it didn’t bother me at all. I also worked in a situation in New Jersey where we
had lots of mosquitoes and other insects and so some guys talk about the mosquitoes in Vietnam,
and they were just sort of background to me. (00:38:26)
Veteran: And you know, and that’s just because of what you are used to. And so, I think, you
know, I adjusted to it fairly quickly. What took longer to adjust to was the weight of the
rucksack. But you know for the training there, I paid attention and then from there they said,
“Okay, go—tomorrow you will meet your battalion commander.”
Interviewer: Okay. So, what’s sort of the normal pack to carry? You said the weight of the
rucksack. So, what is going to be in that?
�22
Veteran: Well, the rucksacks that I normally carried on me, it was not only the rucksack but the
web gear. And I would carry a minimum of 6 hand grenades, usually a minimum of 6 smoke
grenades, then I would have 400 rounds of M-16 ammo. I did not carry a pistol. I had no desire
to have a 45. I wanted to have—I decided I wanted the M-16 because it made no sense for me to
carry ammo that somebody else couldn’t use if I got shot. So, and I wanted to be able to shoot if
I had to. And I knew technically I wasn’t supposed to have to shoot. You know, if things are
going well. Well, not too much anyway. But and then, I also—we all carried a pound of C-4.
You’d carry 3 days’ worth of rations and that’s…those are, you know, that’s all canned rations.
So, you are looking at a couple pounds for each day. Well, a couple pounds for each meal. And
then you’d carry a gallon and a half to two gallons of water. And you’d carry an entrenching
tool, a bayonet, you carried a…you’d have a terry towel for wiping off the sweat. You had your
hard helmet. You had your poncho, your poncho liner. You carried 600—100 rounds of M-60
ammunition for the machine gun. Everybody carried that. I carried a strobe light. I carried…I
ended up carrying blasting caps because nobody else wanted to carry them. And I, you know, I
don’t blame them. I knew what they could do but somebody’s got to carry them, so I’d put them
in my ruck and hope they didn’t blow up too fast. (00:40:40)
Interviewer: So, did you ever add up what all that weighed?
Veteran: No, but you know, I was told it was…it varied between sometime during the day,
between 60 and 90 pounds during that period when you first pick it up. And you learn to—
alright, what don’t I need? I don’t need this; I don’t need that. But I also carried an M-60 ammo
box, which is about probably 3 inches and by 12 inches and about 8 inches high. And that’s
waterproof. And that’s where I kept my writing utensils and if I had a magazine or book, I’d
keep that there. And I always had books and magazines, so you know. And pictures from home,
�23
you know. So, when you start adding all this stuff up, that’s a big…But it’s what you want. Now,
the guys—some guys were very specific and say, “Oh, I am not going to carry that gun. I’m not
going to carry that.” And you also had a claymore mine, that was another pound and a half, you
know. So, you know, and it—and you had trip flares. You start thinking about it, it keeps going
up as far as what you had. And it was easy the first time you get it all together. To get it back on
the ground, you get it down there, you put it on your shoulders, and then you go to stand up and
you can’t get up. So, we always had somebody there to give you a hand and then get you up.
Once you’re up, you’re good. But after you had—after a while, you learned to make sure you
had that on the uphill side, you’d be on the downhill side and you could get up. But trying to get
into your pack and get up flat, you had to have somebody give you a hand in most cases.
(00:42:14)
Interviewer: Okay. So, that’s something they didn’t do at Fort Benning or any place else?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: Not on that level.
Veteran: We never carried rucksacks like that.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you go out. Now, did you join your unit in the field or were they
in the camp? Or…?
Veteran: I got—well, after I got done with SERTS, I met Colonel Lucas and, you know, he
welcomed me to the organization and everything. He said, “You know, your guys are out in the
field right now.” He said, “Go down to your—see the first sergeant down there in alpha company
and he will make arrangements to get you out in the field.” And so, I met with Sergeant Ross
who then said, “Here, go see supply. They will get you your rucksack.” So, they loaded me up
�24
with all sorts of good stuff. And the next morning I went to the chopper pad. I got on the chopper
pad with the mail and flew out there. It was about a 20-minute flight. And thought—I am looking
down and I see, you know, we are flying around and there’s this opening and I see some smoke
there. I don’t see anybody down there. You know? Just the smoke coming up, you know. Purple
smoke. And then they come down and then the door gunner says, “Alright. Get out.” And you
jump out. And you know from my training, I said, “Okay, I got to get away from the helicopter
as fast as I can because if it gets shot down it becomes a danger.” So, you get out and you run
away. And so, I am running off into the bushes and there’s not—I don’t see anybody, you know.
It was like I hope somebody is here. But I am just doing what I was trained. I run off in the
bushes and then somebody says, “LT, over here!” and then the radioman, who was—had called
in the chopper—and somebody else came out and got the stuff that was on the—the other stuff
that was on the helicopter. And then he led me back to where the company was. (00:44:02)
Interviewer: Now, when was this that you got out there?
Veteran: Turns out it was about the 30th of April.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you are all—by this time, the battalion—they have set up the base
on Ripcord?
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: Which, we will talk about in a moment. And so, you are out there in the hills
in the jungle and so forth, the highlands; you’re not down in the lowland area at all. Now,
who was the company commander at the time you joined?
Veteran: My company commander was Albert Burkhart. And he had been company commander
since January. And he eventually—he left the company at the end of May and moved on to
�25
another job. But I met him and Captain—or Lieutenant Wilcox at that time. Jeff Wilcox was
there. He was first platoon leader. And second platoon leader, which I was taking over, was
Garrett Kelly was there. He was still there, and he was going to show me around for a couple
days. And third platoon was headed up by Jim Noll. And we just had three platoons and that was
it. And then the—there was also the foreign observer, the FO, he was…that was Lieutenant
Brennan. And he was West Point and so was Wilcox. Everybody else was either OCS or I think
the other two officers were OCS. And but that’s—and I got meet all them. And yeah, and that’s
where we—we operated out of there for the next couple…I guess next week or so, we operated
in that AO. And there really wasn’t much going on of significance, other than the one thing I
remember is hearing that the first platoon or first—yeah, first platoon had flushed a pheasant out
there and off of a nest and they were checking the eggs to see if they were edible. But they were
talking about this long-tailed pheasant. So…
Interviewer: Now, about how many men were in your platoon when you got there?
(00:46:06)
Veteran: I don’t remember right off hand, but invariably it was probably no more than 25. The
most I ever recall having in my platoon I think was after Ripcord and I remember I wrote to my
wife and I mentioned that we had 29 people; that’s the most I have ever seen. So…. And there
were maybe more people assigned. There were probably more people assigned to me. But what
happens is people are going in for medical reasons, they are going in for R and R, they deros
[rotate back to the US], they come back and forth. So, you just—you never have a whole lot of
guys in the field with you. And in fact, shortly after I got there one of my NCOs came back about
3 days later. On the next time we got resupplied, he comes into the field, so I met him. And he
just came off of an R and R, so he spent a lot of time just telling everybody how great R and R
�26
was and the good time he had with this great girl he met in Thailand, etc., etc. And then after
everything was over, you know, and everybody else—I said, “Alright guys, break it up gang.
Back to playing Army here. Get back out.” And then he came to me and says, “Oh LT,” he says,
“I got to go on the next chopper here. I got to go back in.” I said, “Why?” He says, “I got the
clap. I got to get some shots.” I said, “Oh, okay.”
Interviewer: Well, a good time has its price. Now, how did you approach taking over a
platoon? How did you deal with the men and so forth?
Veteran: Basically, I dealt strictly with my platoon sergeant. I depended on the platoon sergeant.
And it was recommended by most people, you know, pay attention to your platoon sergeant. If
he’s got any experience, he probably knows more. And I…My platoons sergeant was Dennis
Leverett, and he basically made sure I didn’t do anything dumb right away. After a while, I got,
you know where I would do dumb things on my own but…You know. And that’s…And that’s
pretty much their job: they are—they know all the platoons, squads, squad leaders. And so, I
learned from him and that’s pretty much how things worked out. (00:48:22)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you would also have other people usually with you. You’d have at
least a radio operator?
Veteran: Yeah, I had a—my radio operator at that time was a guy by the name of Michaels. I
think it is Thomas Michaels. And so, you know, I deal with him on a regular basis and…but
most of the time, my dealings are with the company commander and my platoon sergeant. And I
would talk to the squad leaders on occasion but more than likely, you know, the platoon sergeant
and I would talk about what the company commander wanted us to do the next day and he would
designate. “Alright, first squad, you are going to be the lead squad.” And if there was any
�27
problems then I—he would come to me and say, “Okay, I got a problem here,” and then I would
handle it. But it wasn’t—normally the guys all…they knew what they had to do.
Interviewer: Okay. Now in the first weeks when you are out there, you said there wasn’t
much going on, so you were just patrolling?
Veteran: Yes, it was just doing the RIFs, you know, Recon In Force, checking the area. We
would move our location a little bit. I don’t recall that we moved very much. But apparently, we
went back and forth on this one hill. We’d be off of it and then we’d come back a day or two
later. And it was—and I think that—I don’t know that we ever…we might have had some
contact but not my platoon.
Interviewer: Okay. So, the enemy is not really very visible. Did the platoons operate
separately? Or…?
Veteran: Yes. In most cases with our company, and I think with most of the companies around
Ripcord, platoons operated 3-400 yards apart. Or meters I mean, as we talked in those days.
You’d be that far apart. And so, that’s what we would be doing. And we just wouldn’t…you
know, we wouldn’t see—I’d see the company commander, usually because I was the newest new
guy, he usually kept his CP with my outfit. And that makes sense; he wants to make sure you are
doing things right and he doesn’t want you to go off on a tangent yet, you know, he’ll let you do
that later. So…but so there was usually the CP was with one platoon and then the other two
platoons worked elsewhere. And then once in a while, we’d join up with another platoon for a
while. But there was always a—seems like we almost never were we all together, except for
resupply. (00:50:43)
Interviewer: Okay.
�28
Veteran: And even at resupply, it would be 1, maybe 2 platoons there and then they would leave,
and the third platoon would come in and get resupplied, you know. We’d have all the stuff there,
but the other ones would be providing security or, you know.
Interviewer: And this is resupply from helicopters? Or from bringing things into LZs in
the jungle?
Veteran: Yeah, the helicopter—anybody who was in the Army in those days—when you get out
of the Army, the Huey helicopter just…yeah, it would shake you because—and I have analyzed
it in mine because in the 20 years later, I’d hear a Huey flying over and I’d be looking up, you
know. And I know it’s a Huey, I can tell by the sound, but I got to look up and see the Huey.
And now they don’t fly them very much; most of them are grounded. You know, the National
Guard doesn’t have any; they have gone over to Blackhawks, which got a completely different
sound. And…but you had this funny feeling in you, and it was sort of…it was a feeling of
anticipation and also a little bit of dread. And the reason is because the helicopter was a major
lifeline to the rear. And it brought out your food, it brought out the water, it brought out ammo, it
brought out mail, which is just the best thing in the world that you can get out there. (00:52:05)
Veteran: But when you came in—when it came in—the enemy knew where you were exactly.
So, you might get mortared now or you might get attacked. It was like—it was a two-edged
sword. It was really good to see them but then it was like oh man. And they also, you know, they
med-evaced you if you got people injured. So even when you had a med-evac, you needed them
here, but you hated the fact that they had to come because now the enemy knew for sure just
your location. So, it was that kind of feel. It was a love/hate relationship for a long time. And like
I said, 20, even 30 years later, I still had that feeling. And then two years ago down at Fort
�29
Worth, we had a helic—a Huey. One of the guys owned one and he brought it to the reunion. It
was like oh…
Interviewer: Still don’t like the sound. Okay. Now, what was the battalion’s mission at this
point in time? This is like May of 1970 now. What are they doing? What is Ripcord, for
now, for the audience?
Veteran: Well, Ripcord by this point was a fully established firebase. And the purpose of setting
up the firebase is to provide fire power in the form of artillery to the Army units, the infantry
units, around it. And also, they were able to fire over into the A Shau Valley with their 155s. and
I don’t know but I suspect that the whole plan was to set up these bases and they were probably
going to make a foray into the A Shau to get rid of some of the supplies that the NVA had been
stocking over there. The whole purpose is to provide more security for the ARVN who were
going to be taking over because we were now winding down. So, if we can reduce the amount of
supplies that NVA had available to them, then the ARVN will have more breathing room. And
so, you know, we had O’Riley just up a little to the north of us. And I don’t know if they had
plans to open another firebase or not but this…We got the impression that this was what the
colonel had in mind. It’s not like he said, “Oh, here is what we were doing.”
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.
Veteran: Somebody knew but I was a lieutenant. (00:54:15)
Interviewer: Right. So, in hindsight, you got to do the research or talk to higher ups to
figure out yes, this was supposed to be a jumping off point to actually launch the ARVN
first division into the A Shau Valley and—which was a main kind of supply route as well as
storage area to get from Laos and the Ho Chi Minh Trail into the lowland areas around Da
�30
Nang, where there was…that was sort of a big target area for the enemy. So, if you mess
them up, mess up their plans, their supplies, and…Okay, and then initially, at least, that
seems to be working. You are there, they are not putting up much of a fight. When you
were patrolling, did you start to find enemy supplies or indications of their presence?
Veteran: They found some before I got there in April and found a couple caches in the area. And
that was over near probably Hill 600, 605 I think, or somewhere in that area. So, they were
finding some but when I went in May we weren’t finding anything. And then they finally
decided, by the middle of May, they said, “Okay, we are going to combat assault you guys to a
new location.” And so, I think it was the 13th of May they picked us all up and flew us into a new
site. And there was—it was reported that it was a hot LZ, but they didn’t fire when I was there.
But it fired up some, you know, maybe the first chopper but nothing got—nobody got hurt. And
then from there, the next day we moved out. And the first platoon led, and the point man was
killed. Bob Lowe was killed, and a couple other guys wounded. Wilcox was wounded and ended
up having to go back to the rear. And we found a bunker, couple bunkers, there. We didn’t get
any of the NVA, they just dropped off the side, which often was the case. And that was the first
real contact that we had. (00:56:10)
Veteran: And I was told to get my platoon up there and destroy the bunker. And you can’t see it.
By the time I got there, the NVA had left but we weren’t sure, and I remembered I had a light
anti-tank weapon, which is a collapsible Bazooka sort of thing. And I took that, and I fired it at
the—what I thought was the bunker and it turned out it was. And I, you know, I look at it now if
there was anybody there, I was dead. But there’s nobody there so it worked out fine. But and
that’s what we did. And then the next day or so, we moved out. Again, we were moving in,
patrolling in, platoon units. And the company commander was with my platoon and I think
�31
about…I think it was on the 20th. And then we ran into a trail watcher. And he allowed 5 people
to pass him. We didn’t see him. He might have been hiding behind a tree or something. Finally,
the—I am the 5th guy, I get past him. There’s a wall of bamboo and then my radioman is coming
behind me, the guy steps out, fires up, wounds my radioman. Gets him in the buttocks. Got the
million-dollar wound; he got to go home. And the guy behind him was startled and didn’t fire.
And but the—it was real steep. We are up on this part of the trail and its like this and the guy is
over here. And as soon as he fired, he just dropped right down the side of the hill. We fired and
of course it was all over his head and we never got anybody, and we called in an evacuation and
med-evaced my radioman out and I got to assign somebody else to carry the radio. Carrying the
radio was not necessarily a good job. Yeah, you didn’t have to walk point, but it was a target
almost all the time. And if you were in front of or behind the radio, you were also a target usually
because that meant you were a person of authority. And they didn’t know if you’d be in front of
him or behind him. So…But the guy behind the radio in this case had an M-79 grenade launcher
so they didn’t think he looked like the guy to shoot so they shot the radioman. (00:58:32)
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, would they be able to spot the radio or tell the difference between
that and a regular ruck?
Veteran: Yeah, it’s—it was a big boxy contraption like that, and it had the antenna up. Yeah, you
had that on your back. It’s…and you had the headset fit here and strapped on to your rucksack.
So yeah, it’s pretty obvious.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, let’s see—do things kind of—does the tempo kind of pick up a
little bit? You get into late May, into June. You get more contact?
�32
Veteran: Yeah, it was picking up at this point because some of the other units were pick, you
know, running [into] things. And before we hit that trail watcher, we actually had seen a
footprint in the trail. So, now we are starting to…and it was a fresh naked footprint. So, then we
are like okay, something is going on here. Now, you understand that the area that we were in,
there were no villages. There was…and there were no civilians. Everybody we saw, they were
NVA. They had uniforms on, they had pith helmets and khaki shorts and shirts. So, you didn’t
have—it was more like World War 2 in that respect. You didn’t have to worry about are you
going to shoot the wrong guy? Well, yeah, you did have to worry but you know, it was less of a
worry. It wasn’t like will this guy come get me later when he takes his pajamas off and puts his
helmet on? You know. So, that was kind of good. And so, if we saw any sign of people, we knew
it was the NVA. And but we didn’t see…We went through the rest of that month; I didn’t see
anything. We did find a 50 caliber—51 caliber location where they had been. They set up to fire
the 51. We found some more bunkers that we destroyed. So, we were finding things like that. We
didn’t encounter anymore people though. I mean, my platoon didn’t. I don’t recall the others
encountered anybody. And I…and you know, significantly what I remember about that period of
time was when things were quiet, it was just really nice. (01:00:31)
Veteran: You know, I was the biologist again. And when my troops found out I had a degree in
biology, they were bringing me stuff all the time and I’d identify them. I’d say, “Well, maybe I
can help you, but I didn’t study jungle biology.” But I saw—you know, I did identify some of the
things that they brought me. And we also—we had centipedes and millipedes and they were
poisonous. And you know, but they were beautiful: all sorts of colors on them. But you didn’t
want to get bit because you could get a reaction that wasn’t nice, or you might. And of course,
we always had leeches and earthworms that were a foot and a half long and they’d come out at
�33
night and crawl over your hand and scare you to death. I saw one snake the whole time I was in
the jungle. And I only saw 4 feet of it: I didn’t see the head.
Interviewer: Alright. And at this point, what is the mood of the men in your unit? Morale
level?
Veteran: It seems pretty good. I mean, they’re—you know. They like—I would say that at this
point, they are comfortable with the captain. They’re not sure about me. I’d only been there a
couple weeks, you know. They’re—they never trust the new LTs. You know, you have to really
do something to…and so far, I hadn’t done anything special. And they were, “Eh, I don’t know
about this guy…” And I am—but the platoon sergeant kept them in line and, you know, kept
them— “Don’t worry, he’ll be alright.”
Interviewer: And in the meantime, you didn’t do anything stupid.
Veteran: Yeah. And that’s…
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so we have gotten you pretty much through late May of 1970
here and maybe into early June. You say that you’re encountering—more things are going
on now. There is also at a certain point a command change in your company. Now, how
does that come about? (01:02:22)
Veteran: Yeah. Well, it—after we finished going through that area after my radioman got shot,
about two weeks after that we ended up on a hill for resupply. And Colonel Lucas sent out a
Captain Hawkins to take over the company.
Interviewer: And was he a captain at that point?
�34
Veteran: He was captain. They promoted him early because his promotion date was supposed to
be like the 6th of June but they—the colonel wanted him to take over the company. And part of
this, you know, we suspected that he was another West Pointer like Lucas. So…But the two of
them got along very well. and he had been doing, apparently, fine when he was working as a
lieutenant with Charlie company and got to know Lucas, I think, in that period of time. And I am
sure that Captain Hawkins probably was looking to get—I know he wanted to get a company and
probably just said the sooner the better. What we heard later was that the, you know, the colonel
thought that Burkhart was not aggressive enough and I could understand. I didn’t feel that he was
aggressive. We had a good time. We were enjoying the for… as much as we could enjoy it. But
we were, you know. We were doing what we were told. And…but that took place, I think it was
the 31st of May. And then we were still—and we worked around that AO for another day.
Burkart left and then on the 2nd we picked up and flew out. And now there is—this is a period
that it is somewhat confusing. I have a memory of what happened on that period but then I have
looked at the official log and they have us way someplace else. And I have to talk to more people
but as far as I can remember, I was only on Ripcord one day, maybe two. But in my memory,
after we got the new captain, they picked us up and they were going to—the assumption was—
that’s what I remember—is we were going to have…we were doing a CA: Combat Assault.
(01:04:44)
Veteran: So, they were going to pick up and we were going to go someplace else. And that’s the
way it always worked. And, you know, that’s my memory as an officer and I don’t think they
would have said, “Oh, we are going to go to Ripcord,” unless we were going there. So anyway,
we get up in the air and then instead of flying directly over to where we normally go, we are
making this big leisurely circle up around 2 or 3000 feet up. And I think what was happening—
�35
and I’ve never had a chance to ask Hawkins about it—is I think they were getting a change of
orders. And I think at that point, Hawkins and Black Spade [Col. Lucas] were talking about
where they wanted us and Black Spade said, “No, I”—I think what Black Spade—“I am going to
need you down here.” And so, we made this big circle. And I remember that day very well
because I am sitting on the outside edge of the helicopter. And you had your legs hanging over
the side so you could get out fast. And well, we are making this big turn but we’re not going very
fast so centripetal force is not there. And I am starting to slide off the…my butt is sliding; I am
heading out. Well, I got nothing to grab onto. I look to my radioman, I said, “Grab my ruck.”
And all he had to do was hold it and it stopped me. But I was already thinking about whether or
not I could grab that strut as I fell past it. (01:06:13)
Veteran: And if I didn’t, it was over. But that was—I remember that really well. and then we
finally—they decide where we are going, and we landed on Ripcord. We got on Ripcord and
then they said, we were told, “Alright, you guys are going to take over the security for Ripcord.
And Delta company”—I think Delta company was there at the time—"and they’ll be going out
into the field.” Okay. We had not done security for Ripcord yet. So, and usually they would
rotate companies. So, that’s what I assumed we were doing. And because we were going to be
there for a while, the—back at the rear—they set out a PX conex. It’s this big metal box with
doors on it, you know, with was about 10 feet long and 8 feet wide. And they had it filled with
junk food from the PX, and you could buy it from the PX. And then they had sodas and pretzels
and chips and peanuts and all this stuff that you would like to buy but you don’t get back to the
PX. But oh we—it was a change of pace. And we were going to be here on the firebase for the
next, you know, usually it’s a month. So, hell yeah, we’ll do this. So, everybody goes to the—
they buy all sorts of cokes and sodas and different things, takes it back to their bunkers. And we
�36
are eating the stuff and we are fixing up the wire and everything, getting ready to take over full
time. And then some time in the late afternoon, the word comes down that oh, change of orders:
you guys are walking to Hill 1000 tomorrow. Well heck, we got all this stuff. We are not going
to carry this stuff with us. You know, you don’t carry sodas in the field. You might carry—some
guys might carry one but it’s terrible. It doesn’t quench your thirst; it just makes you thirstier.
(01:08:07)
Veteran: And you don’t carry pretzels and chips because you don’t have room for them and
they’re too noisy, you know. So, and then they said, “The firebase is going on 50% alert
tonight.” Because they had a—apparently, they had something from the intelligence that said that
the NVA were planning an attack on a firebase and of course they didn’t know which one, but
they thought it might be Ripcord. So, we have this, you know, alert. Well, when you have a 50%
alert, you don’t get very—you know, you’re up for two hours, you sleep for two hours. Well, that
doesn’t work very well. And so, you end up with not much sleep at all. And so, it is almost more
of a party. Well, one of the guys in my platoon—and I thought it was Tommy Swain, but he said
he didn’t remember it—but one of the guys in my platoon had a transistor radio and he was tuned
in to the Armed Forces radio station and they are playing rock music at the time. Well,
technically you are not supposed to have that in the field, but we don’t check too close. But as
long as you are out of bunker line, nobody cares. And but we also had—every unit had what we
called Micky Mouse radios. These were intra-platoon headsets. So, you had communications
within the platoon that wouldn’t go over the other net. It was all line of sight. It worked very
decently on the firebases. It was worth nothing in the jungle. It—a guy would be 10 feet away; if
there’s a tree, you don’t hear—you can’t hear him. So anyway, Tommy is on, listening to the
radio. So, he tunes the radio until the song starts, puts it on to his Micky Mouse radio, and he
�37
broadcasts it to the rest of the guys, whoever could hear it. And then, when the song was over, he
would then DJ the record and say, “Okay, that was so-and-so by Rolling Stones.” And then he
would say, “And if anybody wants free chips or soda, come on down to Bunker 37. We are open
all night.” (01:10:14)
Veteran: And that was the kind of thing that we were doing. Well, that was…So, that’s where we
end up. So, we were there on the 2nd and then the next morning we moved out. And then we
walked over to Hill 1000. And that’s when we ran into the NVA. And had two guys that—my
point was John Conrad and the other fellow, Little, and we hit the—they ran into some NVA
sitting there in the trail eating. And John fired his gun, as the point man, and then I think it
jammed or whatever, he just fired one shot. His point guy who was his side command was
supposed to follow up. Well, it turns out Little was deathly afraid of the whole thing. And he just
couldn’t. I mean, he bailed out. And so, when John didn’t get any backup, he bailed. So, then we
pulled back. We called in some airstrikes in the area, you know, tried to clean them up. And what
they did was they came closer to us. And of course, we couldn’t tell. And so, we had to go back
in there. And my point team wouldn’t go back in because they almost never do when they run
into something that doesn’t work out. So, I told the squad leader to get another point team. And
he ended up getting…Wieland Norris came up and said, “You know, I’ll do point.” And so, he
got point and then the platoon sergeant—or the squad leader—is Orville Kroger. Or wait, it’s
Kuzar, Kuzar I think it is. I can’t keep track. Anyway, he takes the slack position. And so, we
start back out. We didn’t get—we just barely—I don’t know, we might have moved 10 yards or
so and then from the back, Norris’s squad leader comes, you know, hustling past me. And I
remember grabbing him by the arm. I said, “Where you going?” he said, “I got to get Norris off
of point.” (01:12:29)
�38
Veteran: And so, I let him go and he walked past me. He goes past the assistant gunner, the
machine gunner, gets up to Kuzar and then Kuzar turns around to see what’s going on and about
the same time, Norris says to him, “I think I hear something,” which is not the proper response.
The proper response is shoot. And with that, the NVA fired. They hit Norris; killed him outright.
And a second guy was aiming at Kuzar and hit him in the shoulder because he had turned. He
ended up with a shoulder wound instead of probably a heart wound. And then another bullet
went through his cheek and that hit right under—grazed the chin of Wagnon, who was coming
up there. And then, all hell breaks loose and then we end up going online. We push them off, we
never—they fired and then they left.
Interviewer: Now, did Norris have experience at point? Or why was the sergeant going
after him?
Veteran: He had only been with us for about a month or so and the sergeant didn’t—he didn’t
want him on point at this point in his career. And when he found out that he had volunteered, and
you know, I didn’t know. You know, these guys take care of this stuff. And so, that—I think he
almost had a premonition. But once he heard that Norris was up there, he wanted to get him off
and it was just too late. And so, we lost that guy. And then we had Cobras come back in later on.
One of my guys, McVay, he got some wounds, minor fragments from that, so we medevaced
him out. (01:14:21)
Veteran: And then the next day, I think we medevaced…We took Norris’s body out and then the
next day, or a couple days later, first platoon ran into somebody and a couple guys were killed in
that. And I don’t really remember much about that; I was told about that later. It wasn’t my
platoon so that’s what I remember. And then, by that time, it comes around to the 9th of June.
And we are having a stand down by the battalion. The battalion would have a stand down where
�39
they would get everybody into the rear, give them a break, refit, and then they also do some
retraining, take you out to the range, sight your guns in again. You know, practice ambushes just
in case you forgot. And it’s a—you know, it’s a chance in the rear. Guys get to clean up, get to
actually take a shower. Get a hot meal that you didn’t cook over C-4. Stuff like that. And so, we
went in on the 9th and we were there until the 15th. We came back out. We also went down, I
think, guys say we went down to Eagle Beach. I did not go to Eagle Beach as far as I can
remember. I think I would have recalled that. I suspect that they had me—I know I gave some
classes when they came back. So, I was probably preparing for the class. Typical, what the
officers often did. And that’s, you know. And then we went back out in the jungle on the 15th of
June. And we were out in the—and I get up that morning to go out in the jungle, felt like I had
bruised my arm. You know, my elbow was sore. I thought, hmm, must have hit it in the dark or
something, you know. No big deal. Go out in the jungle, they drop us off. By noon time, my
elbow had swelled way up. You know, and I—and it was tender just having the cloth…it hurt.
And I couldn’t move it. (01:16:16)
Veteran: The only way to get my rucksack off was to use the quick release. You know? So, I
went to the medic and I said, “You know, what is this?” and he looked, and he said, “Oh, it looks
like cellulitis. Let me give you some penicillin.” Cellulitis is just a bacterial infection. It comes
when you get cuts and scratches. You can get it here in the states. And I got it over there. And so,
and then that night I actually had nightmares. I was running a fever, it got bigger yet. So, the next
morning they were—they said—well, they had changed again. New orders. Now we are going to
go secure Firebase O’Reilly. And the ARVNs had been securing it. It was their artillery unit up
there, but they had their own infantry around it. But now their infantry is going out in the field
and so we were being sent there to secure O’Reilly. So, we got—choppers came in and I told the
�40
captain, I said, “I’ve got to go back to the base hospital. They want me to go take this to look at.”
So, I ended up going into Camp Evans. And you know…Well, I walk on into the medical
building there. They said, “What’s your problem?” I showed them. They said, “Oh yeah,
cellulitis.” They said, “Here.” They stick an IV in me with a liter of glucose and penicillin. And
then, “Here, take this and walk out this door and on your left, you will find a barracks. Go find a
bed. They should have a rack there. Hang this up.” And so, that’s what I did. And then every so
often, they would come in to check the drip. And I went through 4 liters of penicillin, glucose, in
about 3 days. And then the swelling went down. They said, “Yeah, if the swelling doesn’t come
down after a while, we are going to have to lance it.” And it really hurt, so I wasn’t keen on them
lancing it. (01:18:14)
Veteran: But then I recovered. While I was there, I am talking to this sergeant who was in there
for the same thing. And he said, “This is my second time in here.” And he says, “They will not
send me back out in the field again.” Because the antibiotics they had for it at that time, it was
penicillin and tetracycline. And if you had the penicillin, then they would give you the
tetracycline, but they didn’t want you to get it again because the penicillin probably was not
going to be as effective the second time around. So, they—if you got it the second time, they
pulled you from the field and you had to keep clean. And that’s what happened to this guy. He
had already been there. And I didn’t want a second round in particular. So, a week later I am
back on O’Reilly with our guys. And then it’s a—and about that time, my platoon sergeant who
had been, you know, dealing with me all the time, hederosed. He left; you know, he was going
back to the states. And so, I had to select a new platoon sergeant. And I selected Johnny Brown.
And he was a—just an E-5 staff buck sergeant—but…and I don’t remember the details. But he
was the one I felt was going to be the best for the job. I had Wagnon and for some reason I did
�41
not pick him. Again, I don’t know why. I don’t remember. But I picked John Brown. And so, and
during that period of time, I had two black guys, Conrad and Little, and Little didn’t like me. He
thought I was prejudiced because I made him work with some of the other guys. And I think he
felt—they also felt that, but they said, “We’d like to be transferred to third platoon. They have a
black platoon sergeant. We think everything would be better.” I said, “Oh, that’s fine. I got no
problem with that. If you have a problem,” I said, “I would have taken care of it.” They said,
“Well no, we just want to be there.” I said, “Okay.”. So, I contacted third platoon sergeant.
(01:20:22)
Veteran: I said, “Do you want these guys?” He said, “Oh yeah.” So, he took them. And I talked
to him some weeks later. He said, “You didn’t do me any favor with the one guy, did you?” I
said, “Well, I didn’t say it was a favor.” I said, “One of them,” I said—and this guy, Little, he
was just…There’s no doubt in my mind he didn’t belong in the field. He had a real problem
with—he was afraid, and that’s understandable. I—you know. Some people can control their
fear, others, you know…But whenever things happened, he would get as far away from the
shooting as he could. And I understand that, you know. I wanted to but I didn’t, you know,
because my job came first. But some people just can’t do that. It’s not that—I never felt that he
was bad; he just couldn’t handle it. That happens. So, and eventually, they got him out of the
field, but he had to get wounded to get out of the field. So…
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did having Hawkins come in as company commander kind of
change the way you operated?
Veteran: It didn’t to any great degree. We were still operating as single units, single platoons. He
was running a few more ambushes than we had run before. But it hadn’t changed right away.
And I think Hawkins was just feeling out things. He got a feel for things in that little brief time in
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June before we went on stand down. And then he was getting a better feel for everybody as we
worked on O’Reilly. And that was—when you are on a firebase, it’s a real pain in the neck. It’s
hot. You got no sunshine. It hits 120 in the sun all the time. And you are working to keep up the
wire. You are checking claymores and all this stuff, and you are continually up there doing stuff.
You are running recons out into the jungle and coming back, making sure the NVA aren’t
scooting up around you and stuff like that. (01:22:24)
Veteran: So, it was—I never liked working it. I really was much more comfortable in the jungle.
Even though it was humid, it felt better because I was in the shade. It’d be 95 in the shade with
95 humidity, but it was better. It’s all relative. And also, I felt I had more control of what’s going
to happen to me when I was in the jungle, even though that was not really true. But on the
firebase, you were like on the target. They know where you are. And we didn’t like them to
know where we were. We couldn’t help it, though.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, were there—with O’Reilly, you said there was a Vietnamese
artillery unit there. So, what impression did you have of them?
Veteran: I didn’t have much dealings with them but they work on a whole different level. You
know, they are more basic. They would have chickens that they would be slaughtering for—to
eat. And they tended to…you had to watch your stuff. They tended to latch on to anything that
wasn’t watched closely. So, they would steal your C-rations if they could get them. So, you just
sort of, you know, kept them at arm’s length. We had a couple Vietnamese working with us. We
had our interpreter, Long. He was an ARVN. That’s the army of Vietnam. Staff sergeant. He was
very good; everybody liked him. We would buy rice from him. He would go home once a month
and pick up these bags of minerals. Vietnamese mineral rice is what we called it. And he’d—you
know, a little bag he would sell to us for 25 cents a bag. And we would, you know, we used that
�43
to supplement the C-rations, to make it taste better. And I was…I’d walk through forest and part
of the jungle and I’d have a bag of that. I’d be chewing on it. You know, it would be raw. But
you had enough saliva, then I could—I wouldn’t get hungry. And Wilcox said, “Yeah,” he says,
“after you told me about that,” he said, “I started doing the same thing.” He said, “That was
really a pretty good idea.” (01:24:23)
Veteran: But you know, we just did things like that. But a lot of guys would buy the rice. And
Long was talking about his brother. His brother had a cleft palate, and he was saving the money
so he could have the operation done to cure him. You now? So anyway, we liked the guy.
Interviewer: Yeah. Now, did you also have a Kit Carson Scout with you?
Veteran: We had Kit Carson Scouts. Bob Counts in my platoon, had his own Kit Carson Scout.
And usually, every platoon had a Kit Carson Scout. Some of them were good, some of them
were…They didn’t like the war before, they don’t like it now. So, you know, it—most of the
guys did not have a great deal of trust in the Kit Carsons. You know…
Interviewer: Okay. And what was a Kit Carson Scout?
Veteran: The Kit Carson, for anybody who had never seen them, these were NVA soldiers who
had come over to our side. We called them Chieu Hoi, open arms. And they would Chieu Hoi
and then the agreement was they Chieu Hoi, alright, we would like to make you a Scout. And if
you become a Scout, you help lead us. You know, keep us out of trouble when, you know, the
NVA are around. You will see signs and stuff like this and explain it to us. And then as a result,
you get paid this much money. And we—and I don’t know what they were paying but from the
Vietnamese point of view, it was a lot of money. So, you know, it was pretty enticing for these
guys. And some of them had relatives in the south. And they, you know, they would do that. And
�44
that’s what we used them. So, you always had one guy in the unit who was a handler. He was
taught Vietnamese, and he would deal with the guy. And so, when his Scout went back to the
rear, which they’d go back once a month, he went with him because that was his job. So, he had
to keep track of him. And he might go down to the village, but he’d be there when he came back
so that everybody would know that’s my scout. And then he’d come back out. (01:26:22)
Veteran: As a result of that, a couple times when we got shot at, Bob Counts wasn’t there
because his scout had to go back. So, as an interpreter and a scout handler, that’s really good
because you get to the rear a lot more than the other guys do. Of course, you have to—if your
scout is going up at point, you’re the side man so…It doesn’t—it’s not always perfect. But every
job is that way.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, as we get at the end of June, beginning of July, now things
around Ripcord, or at Ripcord, started to heat up. And so, what are your experiences like
at that point?
Veteran: Well, at that time, I remember when one of—well, Charlie company got hit, which I
think was the 2nd of July.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And we, you know, we are a couple—five kilometers away, maybe six or seven from
where they are. And we heard…You know, of course we are doing radio and we are running our
security at night and everything. And then we are still up on O’Reilly. And then we heard that
they were under fire. And we could see. You know, it’s four or five o’clock in the morning. We
could see the shooting going on way out there, because we are on a hill and we are looking
down. And we were monitoring what was going on on the radio. And you know, and it was like
�45
oh, this is not good. And my thought was, when I heard all this, I heard that they lost eight
people and had all these wounded, I said, “Well, I would bet money that we are going to take
their place.” Because I thought about it. I said, “It would make sense to bring them to O’Reilly,
but then get refitted, get new people, and send us out there because we are all, you know, we
have been here.” But that’s not what the colonel did. The colonel got a new captain, brought in
Wilcox, and gave him new men, and then sent him out back into the jungle, which
I…Oooh…It’s not the way I would have done it, but I understand his concept. You know, don’t
want the guys to get gun shy, and just keep them going. But…whew… (01:28:29)
Veteran: That’s—you have lost your company commander; you have lost a bunch of guys. And
all of a sudden, now you got all these new guys, you’re going back in the jungle right away? Oh
man. To me, that’s kind of…There was an opportunity to do something, and I thought they
would have but they got one day off and then they are back out there. So…And then, it wasn’t
too long before they’re, you know, then we hear about them fighting up on Hill 1000, helping
Delta company. And so, it’s like—so, we are hearing stuff, and we are up and over on O’Reilly.
Nothing going on here. You know, the ARVN are firing some rounds here and there, but you
know, we are fine. And the NVA had attacked O’Reilly a month before we got there. And they
had—and O’Reilly was extremely steep. I mean, it was almost like that. I mean, if you
dropped—if your helmet came off, it went a long way. And the ARVN—the NVA had tried to
do a sapper attack. They were in the wire and—when they were discovered. And the ARVN
killed like 70-80 people. They were just throwing grenades down at them. It was like shooting
fish in a barrel, you know? I think that maybe two ARVNs were killed. So, they had really
decimated them. So, no matter where we—you know—this time there is nobody up there. Well,
but I know that I said, “This can’t last. We are going to be going someplace.” And then finally,
�46
the 10th of July they said, “Okay, we are going to go. We are taking you out towards Hill 805.”
And they combat assaulted out there and dropped us into the jungle. (01:30:11)
Veteran: And what was really scary about that that we got off the helicopter, we got warmed up,
and we could hear shooting in all sorts of directions. It wasn’t aimed at us. Now, we didn’t—we
never ever were close enough to other units that we were getting shot at. But here we are, we
could hear other guys shooting. We said, “Oh, this is scary.” Because, you know, there was lots
of big—they are not just shooting for fun. They are shooting because there is NVA there. So, you
know. And they might have been 5-600 meters away, but it was still…but it made us really tense.
Interviewer: Yeah. But there was a company from another battalion too, 501 I think, that
was on top of 805 and—
Veteran: Well, not yet.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, but they landed around the same time that you did.
Veteran: They were landing about the same time. And then, and so we wandered. We positioned
ourself and then finally on the 12th…I believe it was the 12th of July, we assaulted Hill 805 with
Delta 2501. And they came one side, we came from the other. And you know, they had prepped
it with the artillery, and we bombed it. And they had dropped tear gas on it. Because I remember
smelling the tear gas. It wasn’t very strong by the time we got there but there was nobody there.
It was very nice; just the way we would like it, you know. And so, we set up and Delta company
was supposed to be, you know, they had most of the hill. We had a little saddle. And that night, it
might have been…I am not sure if that was when—it might have been that evening or it was
sometime during the day. Jim Noll was wounded with his radioman, Brady. Because they were
�47
medevaced out. And I think that might have been at night, but they got wounded somewhere in
that period of time. (01:32:07)
Veteran: But that night, the NVA attacked Delta company. And apparently, they didn’t know
that we were on their flank. And so, once things started, then Hawkins said, “Alright, open fire.
Just keep it down there.” We were raking their flank. And we took no casualties at all in our unit
because they weren’t planning for us to be there. And I have learned years later that the NVA,
before they make an attack, they are very particular about getting everything just right. And
apparently, even—you don’t vary from that. If the boss said, “Everybody, attack this way,”
everybody attacks this way. You get hit from the side? Don’t worry about it, that’s not your
problem. And that’s the way they did stuff. I mean, I didn’t know that then, I learned it years
later. But a number of officers who had dealt with them said, “Yeah, that’s how they do things.”
And so anyway, they made their assault, and we rake them on the sides. And they took some
casualties up there on the 805, but overall didn’t have too many. Mostly wounded. And I, you
know, I was thinking the next morning---they said, “Okay, now Alpha company, you guys are
going down in the valley.” And so, we were thinking oh, good. You know? And I—looking for
whatever we could find. You know, somebody said, “Oh, we are supposed to be finding the
gravesites and the…” It doesn’t matter; we are going to be looking for whatever. So, we head out
and again we are working as separate platoons. And most of the time, the CP was with first
platoon because this time he’s the one who had come over to take over first platoon. Wilcox had
been promoted and moved on to Charlie company. So, but he’s a—was another West Pointer
who was anxious to get in there. And they got him. Hawkins brought him in. (01:34:09)
Veteran: And so…But he, myself, and Jim Noll were the platoon leaders. And we had a new
foreign observer, an officer. That was Steve Olson. And he was working with his RTO, Floyd
�48
Alexander. And but, so CP was working with first platoon a lot, sometimes the third platoon
because third platoon had lost their platoon leader. And their platoon sergeant—I don’t think
Hawkins trusted as well. he was relatively new. He hadn’t been there a long time. So, Hawkins
was—and that’s pretty typical of what they would do. And so, we were—during that period of
time—we were—my guys were getting—they were all nervous. And I, you know, I had maybe
20 guys in the field. There weren’t very many. And we would—we got to be really quiet.
Platoons are notoriously noisy. Ask the recon guys. Recon guys hated companies, line
companies, because they are too many people, and they make two much noise. But we were so
tight and so frightened about oh, we might run into something; let’s keep quiet. Maybe they
won’t know where we are. And so, and we were still looking for them, but we wanted to find
them before they found us. And so, we were moving around, and we found some bunkers. I
managed to gas my—some of my guys—while we are gassing the bunkers. And everybody told
me never to touch CS again. But we did—we never ran into any NVA. So, and then finally, I
think after a couple days of doing that, we ended up with a CP. And when that happened, oh
man. All I’d hear was complaints from my troops about when are we going to get rid of the CP?
They are too noisy! You know, the NVAs are going to find us. So, but we never did get rid of the
CP because then we ended up drawing in with somebody else. (01:36:10)
Veteran: And…but before that had happened, there was one period of time when we were still
working separately. Again, my guys were very nervous. And I only had—I had so few people. I
only had really two squads. So, this squad would walk point today, second squad walks it
tomorrow. So, it was this—I think the second squads turn to walk point. And the sergeant comes
to me, he says, “They won’t walk—nobody wants to walk point.” And I said, “What do you
mean nobody wants to walk point?” “Well, they don’t want to. It’s too scary out there.” I said,
�49
“Well, we can’t stay here. We are going to have to go.” I said, “I can’t have first squad do it.
They just did, they just walked point yesterday. They did their day. It’s your turn.” “Well, I can’t
get anybody to walk it.” I said, “Well, screw this.” So, I figured well…I at this point was like
what do I do? Give a direct order? And if they refuse the direct order, then what am I going to
do? Going to get rid of them? Does that mean I would have to call in a helicopter? I ain’t doing
that because I didn’t want a helicopter showing off our position even anymore. And I didn’t feel
that anyone—I didn’t want to challenge them on this. So, I said, “Alright. Hell, I’ll walk point.”
So, I grabbed my radioman. I said, “Let’s go.” And we start out. And I—it wasn’t too long
before they come up and the second squad comes up and says, “Get off the point. We got
somebody to walk point.” So, they walked point. And later that night, I heard from…I don’t
know who, somebody told me. I always thought it was Tommy Swain. Tommy says, “No, I
didn’t talk to you.” But he didn’t even remember me so it’s possible that he did. But somebody
told me, he said, “You know LT, you know why they walked point?” (01:38:08)
Interviewer: Alright, so you were talking about this business about walking point and
you’re taking it over.
Veteran: Yep. So, one guy says…he says, “LT, you know why they didn’t want you to walk
point?” I said, “I didn’t think about it.” I said, “I just—I got somebody to walk point.” He said,
“Well, it’s not that you’re really popular or anything. It’s just that nobody wanted the
responsibility of running the platoon if you got killed.” And I thought, years later, I think about
that. It made good sense. The platoon sergeant was brown. He had only been platoon sergeant for
a few weeks now. The guys didn’t have any experience being behind him as platoon sergeant. I
think if Leverett had been there, they’d have said, “Go ahead, LT.” you know? But I think that
was part of it. And the other ones looked at it and said, “I don’t want to be in charge of this
�50
outfit.” You know, and if he gets killed, then I got to make the decisions. So, this…it’s
interesting, but it worked. And I never had the problem again. But I wasn’t really happy being on
point, but I didn’t see another way around it, other than…And if you don’t—and I felt that if I
didn’t do what they are willing to do, you know, then…you know, they are not going to have any
faith in me at all. And so, and then we ended up with the CP. And by this time, you know, finally
it’s…I think it was about…it was the 18th of July. We were supposed to get a resupply. And so,
we are on an LZ and the LZ is maybe—it’s about one and a half, two kilometers from Ripcord.
And we can actually see Ripcord from where we are. We are standing there, waiting for the
helicopters to come in, you know. And as we are standing there, we see this chinook coming into
Ripcord, and we hear—in remember hearing the 51-caliber machine gun fire. And the next thing
I know, you see the chinook and the blades go out of sync as it got hit in the engine. And then it
nosedived or came down on a rear end, I don’t recall, but it crashed into the firebase. (01:40:16)
Veteran: And as it turns out, it was carrying fuel and it landed on the ammo dump, the 105 ammo
dump. And it went also where the fuel—the other fuel bladders were. And it just…well you
know, it looked just—you see this big explosion. A mushroom cloud goes up and we are
looking, just thinking oh man, there’s got to be all sorts of people getting killed up there. You
know? And my first thought, after thinking about that, man, I hope they didn’t have the mail on
that helicopter. You can see where your priorities are when you are out in the jungle. It’s I hope
they don’t get killed but there better not be any mail on there because it would get burned up.
Now, as it turns out, one man was killed. One of the guys on the helicopter got trapped
underneath and they weren’t able to get him out. And it took longer than it seemed to us. It took
maybe 30 seconds. And then later on that day, our resupply helicopter came in and a couple of
the guys that we had were going back for R and R, so they hopped on. And then, we had either 5
�51
or 6 guys get off that helicopter. And I know that…and I have tracked down 4 of the 5 and I
know that they were new guys for our unit. And so, and I got—at least two of them were for me.
One was Gary Foster and the other was Don Keifer. And they…and these guys were cherries.
This is their first day in the jungle. Well, they were flying by the firebase and it’s blowing up.
You know? And then they join us in the jungle. And the next day, they got everybody situated
and the next day, we are walking down the trail and we stop because I had taken a wrong turn.
We were going to tie up with the first platoon, if I remember. (01:42:11)
Veteran: And of course, we are waiting until I get turned around, you know, 2 NVA walk up on
Captain Hawkins and his RTO. And they were just—walking along, had their guns in a sling.
They didn’t know we were there. And Hawkins looks, holy mackerel! Looks at his radioman.
His radioman can’t get his gun out fast enough. Hawkins got his gun and shot them both, killed
them. And that was…so, for the guys that had their first day in, these new guys, the first day they
see the firebase blow up. Their second day, we are killing NVA right away. And every day after
that we ran into NVA. And that’s the experience that these guys had. Now so, the next day was
the—that was the 19th—the 20th, we found the commo line down in the valley and we tapped into
it and we started listening to what they were saying. We found out it was, I believe, between the
regimental headquarters and their mortar section. And they were directing fire onto Ripcord. And
they said, “Well, if—when you tap into it, it drops in volume.” So, they were going to—they
said, “Well, there must be a break in the line, so they are sending teams out to check for us.” So,
the first platoon was set up with ambushes on both ends. And they sprung one ambush and
wounded some NVA that ran off into the jungle. And then, while we were waiting there, we
were picking up water down by the stream and one of my guys, Miller, he looks down and he
sees an NVA come out on a rock, scouting us. And he kills him with his M-79. Plays him out.
�52
And so then, that was the kind of stuff that was going on, you know. And then we finally get
back. You know, it got late, and the captain said, “Alright, we are just going to go back to where
we were last night,” which is unusual, but we had to. And so, and then the next morning, I think
third platoon beads off and they run into two NVA coming up the trail. (01:44:11)
Veteran: And they fired them up; they wounded one and killed one. And then we’d go looking
for the body of the NVA that we had left the day before and it had been removed and was gone.
And so, we checked these guys and then we search the area, looking for more NVA. Didn’t find
any. Head up. You know, this is the 21st. We head up to new NDP and Chuck waited until the
last minute to leave, so it was almost dark. And they scouted a place to go. Well, I guess it’s
probably maybe 500 meters away. And then, I was tailing Charlie at the time. We had—we were
the last platoon, and I left Walker, Russ Walker, and a Robert Janelle—who we called Sparky—
we left them behind with a radio and they were to look for any trail watchers that might be
following us. And then we went—we were only 100 yards from them. And then it wasn’t much
more than a half hour; all of a sudden, they fire up and they killed one NVA and wounded
another who ran off. And when they searched the body, they found that the guy had a map of
positions on Ripcord. He had been a recon sergeant who was checking Ripcord in preparation for
an attack on Ripcord. And I don’t know if he delivered his message or not but, you know, or
maybe he was going to be scouting. But he was doing something, but he never made it. And so,
somebody booby trapped the body, you know, so in case the—when the NVA come to pick him
up, we’ll get a few more. They put, you know a hand grenade underneath it and stuff like that.
And then end up—we set up for the night. And around 11 o’clock that night, we heard the…an
explosion down by that area. So, we know that they picked up he body. If they were smart, they
�53
would have used grappling hooks and pulled the body and then waited a while. But we don’t
know what they did. We liked to antagonize them like they antagonized us. So… (01:46:13)
Veteran: But so, we spent the night there on this hill. And the next morning was the 22nd. The
plan was…the plan that I was told, and this is what I remember, and we were going to leave that
hill, go to the southeast to—down the valley and up this other side, to this LZ. And then we were
supposed to get resupplied. That’s what I remember from that day because this was my birthday.
I was thinking oooh, resupply. Maybe my wife planned it enough that she could send a package
in time for me to get it. You never know. Maybe I will get a package from home. Always
looking for mail. So, that’s what we were—I thought we were going to do. And I think that was
the original plan. But what happened is that the first platoon is headed out first thing, went down
into the valley. And then later on, they were called, told to come back. Apparently, and I don’t
remember this, but the other people told me that they ran in—they got twisted around and
actually fired at each other for a little bit. Nobody got hurt but, you know, and then they got
reorganized. But it was my impression that I remembered was that they went down, and they
were able to just get to the other LZ and then Hawkins got word from the colonel he didn’t want
us to go over there, he wanted us to go north. So, we had to wait for first platoon to get back.
And then first platoon came back. By this time, we had been on this hill for, you know, it’s
almost one o’clock. About one o’clock now. And rule: you are off of there by nine because the
NVA don’t have enough time to set up an attack. Now, we had smelled NVA in the morning.
And we sent riffs out, but nobody saw anything positive. Somebody said that they thought they
saw a hand. You know, but you know that kind of thing. (01:48:13)
Veteran: Well, we had picked up so much NVA equipment, we thought the odor was coming
from that. And the NVA smelled different than GIs because their diet is more fish. Ours is beef
�54
and chicken, so we have a different odor. We didn’t use deodorant, but we all smelled the same
badly. So, if you are—if the wind is right, you can smell them. And I am sure they could smell
us. And we smelled them but hey, we didn’t see anything on the riffs, and you know, I think they
were further away than the riffs were going. And they moved in gradually. And at any rate, when
first platoon got back, then Chuck said, “Okay,” that’s Captain Hawkins, he said, “Alright Lee,
take your platoon and head north,” because we were set up and it was the right place to go. So,
we headed out to the north. And by now it is close to 1:30. We got 100-175 meters away from
the platoon, from the company. And we are strung out. I had 16 guys with me. Two of them were
cherries and the rest had been out there a while. And we got less than 200 meters away from the
company, my point man runs into an NVA unit setting up a mortar and a trap. Well, you don’t
run into a mortar unit because they are behind all the troops. So, I assume what had happened,
and I found this out just from years later, the fact that the NVA set up, and they are told to do
this, and if you—and if something gets tosses in the works, they don’t know how to handle it.
Whereas if—and I think we walked up on them. They heard us coming and they moved aside
and let us come through. And then after we got passed, they closed it up because they were told
you are going to attack with one of the—after the mortars go off, go up the hill. (01:50:20)
Veteran: So, we were behind them, but we don’t know it. We run into this mortar squad. McVay
is my point man. He sees him; he comes back, he says, “There is somebody up there.” I said,
“What do you mean there is somebody up there? Why didn’t you shoot?” “Oh well, I thought it
might have been ours.” And I said, “Oh, shoot.” He said, “Alright.” So, I got a new—I got two
guys to go up. It’s Janelle and Walker. They worked together a lot. So, they go up and they run
into the NVA and we are right behind them. The NVA open fire with their—they blow down a—
open up with machine guns, AKs, and they fire and RPG—blow this tree down in front of us.
�55
You know, and my radioman gets shot in the leg, breaks his leg. I think it broke his leg, but
anyway, he wasn’t able to walk. So, we are trying to get him out of there. Drop—lose his
rucksack and that’s where his radio is, but we are getting so much fire nobody wants to get the
radio, so I shoot the radio up so it wouldn’t get into enemy hands. We go back—we drop back 10
yards or so. Meantime, the mortars are going off, they are hitting the company with tear gas and
explosives, and they are actually making an assault. The NVA are making an assault right behind
the mortars. Now, I am told about this later because I heard the mortars going off, but they
weren’t hitting me because we were too close to them. And about that same time, the NVA that
had let us through then started shooting at us. They figured once the shooting starts, they can
shoot anywhere. And Gary Foster, who was one of the cherries, he’s at the end. He’s an E-6.
He’s busy. He sees an NVA coming down the trail. He throws a gun up: pew! Drops him.
(01:52:15)
Veteran: And he says, “That’s the only NVA I saw full time.” He said, “After that, they all went
behind trees, and a guy behind a tree is shooting at us.” He said, “I’d throw a grenade and they
wouldn’t shoot anymore. Then there would be another one,” he said, “I’d throw a grenade.” He
threw a dozen grenades and every time he threw one, they quit shooting. He says, “Dead? I don’t
know. I don’t care.” He says, “They quit shooting.” And he got hit with satchel charges. One
blew his shirt off. Blew out both his eardrums. He had a second degree burn on his left shoulder.
He had multiple shrapnel wounds. My platoon sergeant who is back there with him takes it on
the opening volley, takes a bullet through the face. Goes in the—goes in once—in think the
mouth or something. Went in through the mouth, goes out part of his tongue and his jaw, goes
out the side of the other cheek. Didn’t kill him. Didn’t hit anything vital but he couldn’t do
anything but keep his head down, so he didn’t choke on his own blood. So, he was out of
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everything. His radioman, Marty, got hit with shrapnel. He lost his radio. We condensed and it
took a while for those guys to join up with us. And I think…I don’t know if Marty got back there
with him right away or if it had been later, but Marty went back there, he patched up the—
Interviewer: That’s Martin Glennon, the medic?
Veteran: Yeah, Marty. As soon as he could. And then they—I remember them hollering as they
came in so we wouldn’t shoot them and separate them from us. And so, we got into a condensed
perimeter. And I doubt if the perimeter was more than 4 meters wide, 10 meters long.
Something—maybe 12 meters long. And it was…but they were only, you know, there was 17 of
us in there. And I was in the—pretty much in the middle, directing and just checking the, you
know, making sure everybody is down. They are firing at movement. They don’t see anybody.
We can’t see maybe 5 meters. I mean, the jungle is so thick. But you’d see bushes move, so you
would shoot there. (01:54:19)
Veteran: And because we are laying down, they are shooting back at us, but they are shooting
over us. And it was stable like that. We are shooting them. And apparently somewhere in that
period of time, I don’t know exactly when it happened, one of the—my NCOs, Tom Shultz,
got—he had been really nervous for a couple days and he had bad feelings about this whole
thing. And something happened. Somebody said they were next to him and a grenade went off or
a satchel charge and he lost his glasses. And they said he disappeared. And we don’t know if he
got blown away or if he moved and got killed, but we found his body after the battle up towards
the company. He may have panicked and tried to get to the company. We don’t know what
happened to him. It’s any number of scenarios that could have happened. But at any rate, he
didn’t survive. But I had—and then…but I had no radio. My third radio was due for backlog
because it wasn’t working. So, I don’t have contact with Hawkins, my company commander.
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And he’s not coming to help us because I heard all the shooting going on up there. I figured well
he’s got his own business. So, I pretty much figured okay, we are on our own here. Okay. Yeah.
You’re going to do…at one point, the Martin Glen, the medic, came to me. “LT, what are we
going to do? We got to get out of here.” And I said, “We got no place to go.” I said, “They are all
around us.” And I said, “There’s not as many over there down by the valley,” I said, “but I am
not going into the low ground.” I said, “We won’t make it.” I said, “We got guys here that can’t
move to quickly.” I said, “We are not going to go down there.” I said, “All I can see is we need
to stay where we are right now.” (01:56:05)
Veteran: “Oh, I don’t think that’s good.” I said, “I know. It isn’t good but it is all we can do.”
And that was the decision we made. It turns out it was probably the best decision I could have
made, at least for surviving at that point. And at some point, after we had, you know, gone
through this, there was one point when apparently the NVA were making a concerted effort to
get us, wipe us out, because all of a sudden, they were throwing satchel charge after satchel
charge, grenades, and lot of shooting. And it was coming from all sides. At that point, I happened
to be up on my knees and a grenade goes off 10 feet away, a chicomm grenade. Well, they are
not very good grenades, luckily, and they don’t break up in lots of little pieces. But I got hit on
the thigh and the shoulder and the arm but nothing serious. A little more than skin deep, you
know. But another piece of that shrapnel hit Galindo, my machine gunner. You know, lodged in
his cheek, you know. And he ended up with tunnel vision from that injury. But and somebody
says that the other part of that hit Sparky Janelle and he died from it. And I don’t know if that
was what hit him or…But you know, that’s the way those things are. You could—and he was
further away. And it just…you don’t know. One of the things I have learned is that when the
shooting starts, everything is chaotic and, you know, all the bets go out the window. It’s just luck
�58
of the draw. Things happen but you may do something completely right and get killed, do
something completely wrong and survive because there is so much stuff flying around, you don’t
know what is going to happen. Your best bet is to stay low and that won’t guarantee anything
either.
Interviewer: Okay, so what enables you guys to survive that attack?
Veteran: Well, we kept shooting at them. You know, we were—the guys were pretty good
controlling their shooting and they kept shooting. And this lasted—and I don’t know how long
this attack lasted. Probably 5 minutes, 10 minutes. I don’t know. You know, I wasn’t checking
my watch. But you know, and they were so close to us that their satchel charges were going past
us. You know, their hand grenades were going both sides. They were going back and forth. They
might have hurt their own guys as much. (01:58:21)
Veteran: But eventually, they—it just came to—it didn’t completely stop but it did slow down.
And I heard later that the guys in the rear monitoring the NVA broadcasts said that one NVA
unit said, “We have got this group, you know, surrounded. We are going to finish them off.” And
that may have been us they were talking about. It could have been the company. But they said
that person didn’t broadcast anymore. So, whoever it was didn’t do well. And so, meantime, my
radioman—even though he was wounded, finally got the other radio operating. And that was
when I finally made contact with Hawkins. And I don’t know…I think it was an hour after the
battle started. I don’t know. Something like that. I made contact with Hawkins and I remember
he said, “You know, we are in the clear.” You are not supposed to talk about how you are doing
in the clear, but it was necessary for him to know. And I said—he says, “How…you know, what
are your casualties?” I said, “I have lost a pair.” And he said he had lost a basketball team, that
he knew of. And he said, “Okay.” He says, you know, “I know where you are now.” So, he could
�59
deploy the artillery and the Cobras and everything else better. And then he proceeded to do more
of that. In the mean—and they had been—what he had been doing up there I have been told that
they were doing all sorts of fighting and trying to reorganize. They had been really disorganized.
My unit was fortunate because we all stayed together. The other groups got disarrayed. It took
them a while to get back to fighting. And so, there was lots going on. But I am not going to really
talk about what they were doing because it’s really second, third hand. (02:00:16)
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Veteran: But eventually—so we had Cobras coming in and then finally Chuck said, “Okay, we
got a jet coming in. We are going to drop some 250-pound bombs. Now, keep everybody down.”
So, I tell everybody to get down. And well, I don’t remember him saying this is going to be
really close. In fact, I thought accidentally it was really close. And then…but maybe he said it
was going to be close. I don’t remember. But all in know is it was really close. And as I recall,
there were two bombs. One of them landed maybe 75 meters from us. These 250-pound bombs
are supposed to be 200 meters away, you know, for safety purposes. And the other one is—I
don’t know if anybody could ever verify it but I—the other one did not go off. And I remember
seeing it when we got back to the company later that day. Just, you know, sticking in the ground.
But maybe—you know, the memory is not good all the time. But the one went off. I remember;
that was no doubt about that. And when it went off, I mean, the skies turned black. The sun was
obliterated for a bit. And all the—every tree between us and the bomb that was more than 8 feet
high was cut down. I mean, it—and as you got closer to the bomb, there was less and less. So, I
mean it—all of a sudden, we could see. We could see some places 30 meters now because the
bomb had cleared everything. And it was where most of the NVA had been operating out of. and
that’s where they were, you know, launching their attacks after they regrouped. And so, they
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really got decimated with that. And then, it was only after that—I don’t know, it was 10-15
minutes after that—I am up on my knees again. I don’t know what the hell I am thinking.
(02:02:20)
Veteran: I look back as a smarter guy in old age. I am thinking jeez, stop that shit. So, I am up on
my knees and I am looking, and I see this NVA soldier coming. A jet is coming over and he is
running down the trail towards us carrying an RPD, which is a machine gun. And so, I tell the
guys, “Hey! Shoot that guy!” Well, they are all laying down. They can’t see him. Well, I thought
well I guess I got to shoot him. So, I throw my gun up and I start shooting at him. Well, I am
scared. And I see the bullets hitting the bushes and trees to the left and to the right of him, and he
stops you know, and he’s looking this way and that way. And he doesn’t—he’s scared too. And I
am firing single shot: pump, pump, pump. And I am thinking to myself: you’ve got to aim. But I
am scared, you know. I don’t want to stop because I don’t want him to shoot at me. And then I
run out of bullets 18 rounds later, then he runs off into the bushes, because he is just as scared as
I am. As far as I know, I didn’t touch him. I may have wounded him, but I don’t think I did. And
he runs off into the bushes. I get a Cobra online and send the Cobra after him.
Interviewer: Alright. So, we have gotten you through sort of the climax of the battle itself
on July 22nd. But—so the enemy—the airstrikes have brought in. The company is
connected with itself. But you are still out there in the field at that point?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, now what happens?
Veteran: Well, it’s the same. After we had that incident with the NVA, then we were able to—
probably another hour from that, we joined up with the rest of the company. And so, we
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proceeded to—now, the first thing we started doing: it was just getting—it was starting to get
dark. And we would proceed to check all the rucksacks, looking for water because by this point,
nobody had water. (02:04:18)
Veteran: And if you lost your rucksack, there might be water in it, but you had to find it. So, and
I remember getting a drink of water. It was just the best water I have ever tasted in my life.
Earlier in the day, I fully expected not to survive the day. And it was only after getting radio
contact with the company that I thought there was a chance. So, then I finally got some water, so
it was wonderful. We—and we, you know, distributed the water to the wounded and everybody.
And then we started setting up the perimeter for the night because we assumed that we were
going to be hit again that night. And we spent, you know, at that point, we had at least 12 or 14
people who were seriously wounded. And then we had—we had lost—the company had lost
about 12-14 people altogether. And all but 6 people were wounded. One of the guys—two of the
guys in my platoon made it through the battle without being wounded. One of them got hit with a
piece of the flare ring at night and got a gash on his head. So, he ended up getting wounded
anyway, but a different way. But so, we set up and we fully expected to spend the night fighting
the NVA. And we tried to dig in but the—it was very difficult because you had a lot of big trees
and lots of roots. And—just—you’d hunker down some place and waited. And they had flare
ships flying around all night long, waiting for the attack. And they were dropping flares
continuously. There was no attack. In the meantime, the battalion was firing interdiction rounds
on artillery in places where we thought the NVA were or where they might be traveling to to
get—come up there. So, they were hitting the valleys and the streams based on the information
they had. And a lot of that probably was the reason the NVA were unable to do anything. The
other thing is they lost a lot of people in the battle with us. (02:06:22)
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Veteran: We lost a lot of people for our—on our end—but they lost apparently even more. And
they were unable to successfully keep the pressure up. They didn’t have the people anymore. So,
I remember that night it was—I tried to stay awake, you know. And it wasn’t like it was 50%
guard. There was nobody else to guard with you. It was like you got the radio. You assign
somebody to hang on there on the radio with you. You both pretty much kept your eyes open.
And finally, just before daylight, the flare ships went off because up where they are, it is
daylight. Down in the jungle it is still pitch dark. And they left. And I just couldn’t—and I fell
asleep in the dark, you know. And I slept for maybe a half hour. I woke up and okay, I felt better,
and I was still alive. And then Captain Hawkins said that Delta company was coming in to
relieve us. And the day before, we didn’t know but on the 22nd, there were no other infantry units
in the jungle. They had all been pulled out on the 21st. And they had looked at having Delta
company come in and give us a hand. But by the time they got them organized, they prepped a
landing zone and it caught fire. And then before they could—they said, “Well, we will hold off a
bit.” And by that time, we had controlled things. We had finally got to the point where okay,
looks like they got it under control, but we will relieve them in the morning. So, some time that
morning, 8-9 o’clock, they show up, coming walking down. (02:08:09)
Veteran: And then they proceeded to dynamite and C-4 a landing zone. And it was down in
the—down where we were. We were supposed to go, you know, a kilometer up to this other
landing zone. Well, that—they couldn’t haul everybody up there that needed to be hauled. So,
they blew an opening big enough to get the helicopter. And then the first helicopter I think
started flying out of there around 10 o’clock. And they had to just fly straight down, about 100150 feet through the trees. You know, trees all around them. Come straight down, pick up 6
guys, go straight back up, and then fly away. Very dangerous thing for the helicopters around the
�63
enemy because you are a target. But the NVA were so badly beat up, they weren’t able to get
close to us. And so, they—we took all the badly wounded out first and then the dead, and then
the next level of wounded and then the rest of us went out. So, I was back at Camp Evans by
around noontime. And I was on probably the second to last chopper out and Hawkins was on the
last one. But then Delta company came out after us and they were extracted by, you know, by 2
o’clock. So, by 2 o’clock, the entire area was evacuated. There was nobody left. Ripcord had
been finished off, as far as evacuation, they said by 11 o’clock. We were the…Delta company
were the last people to leave the jungle. We were the last unit to be assigned out there and get
shot up. And then got back to the rear and I remember—to me, you know, this is—you have to
understand: I didn’t know at all what to expect. And whatever happened, I just assumed this is
what—this is the way things are. So, we get back to the rear and the first sergeant is there and a
bunch of the guys who were in the rear and they were all, you know, congratulated us and
shaking our hands and welcoming us back and it was like…I am thinking what’s this about? You
know? I was out there, we got shot up, we got back. It’s what we are supposed to do. And, you
know, I didn’t realize just how bad things had been, you know, until maybe later. (02:10:27)
Veteran: And then I, you know, went—and I had also—during the fight, I lost a tooth. My new
platoon—my new sergeant, E-6, was throwing grenades again when he was back with us and
needed some fire cover, so I was giving him some fire cover. He throws a grenade. He obviously
let it cook off a little bit before and as its going out, I see it going out, and think I got to get
down. It goes off. Piece of shrapnel comes back and went right between my lips, hit my tooth,
shattered the tooth, gets up and lodges in my gum. Good thing I didn’t have my mouth open: it
would have gone through the back of my head. But no big deal. You know, it was like—you
know, the adrenaline is flowing so much that day that you didn’t feel, you know, no pain. So, we
�64
get back to the rear. I go have my injuries looked at. And they say, “Oh yeah, you lost that tooth.
We will have to cut it out. Come back tomorrow.” They checked the shrapnel. They said,
“Alright, that is minor.” They said—they X-rayed my head. They said, “You only got that one
piece.” They said, “That will work its way out in a month or so. Don’t worry about it.” So, you
know. And then it went…and then I have very little—I don’t remember anything else from the
time I was back at Evans. The next thing I remember is we were going back in the jungle. And
that was about 5 days later. I had a whole bunch of new guys. A couple of the old guys but not
many. The wounded ones ended up not coming back. And then there were a few that had been in
the rear. And so, I was going out with pretty much a new platoon. My platoon—I had a whole
new platoon sergeant because my other one got wounded. Gary Foster, who would have been my
platoon sergeant, he never—he went back home. Lost both eardrums, they sent him home. So, he
spent 5 days in the jungle. That was his entire tour. (02:12:17)
Veteran: He got a Silver Star, which he deserved every bit of. I look back and I can see that his
actions really helped us because if he hadn’t been there—because everybody else got—was not
working well at that end. And he was the one who kept the NVA from moving closer to us on
that end. So, he probably, you know, he was very instrumental in helping the platoon survive.
And as it turns out, our platoon being out there where we were and being a thorn in their side
was instrumental in helping the company survive. Because it turns out that the way their attack
on that end of the company was broken up because they had to turn around and attack us. And
so, that left a gap where the company was able to move to and reorganize. So, it’s…Like I say,
you plan something? It’s just chaos. Lots of things happen. Of course, we didn’t—we only
recognized that years later. We weren’t thinking about it. But we finished up at the…And I—
they had a memorial service. I have no memory of that. I didn’t know they had one until a couple
�65
years ago when I saw pictures. I said, “Oh, when was that?” They said, “Oh, that was July, right
after the Ripcord.” I said, “Really? Where was I?” I may have been getting my tooth extracted.
The guys said they went to Eagle Beach. The orders say we went to Eagle Beach. I still don’t
recall that.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: But I am looking back, and I am sure there was so much mental stress that I just wasn’t
registering things. You know? But then August we are back out in the field. We are working
outside of Catherine. And that’s how I finished my tour. I finished—I spent another month and a
half—spent a month and a half more in the field and then I turned it over to a new platoon leader.
(02:14:15)
Interviewer: And was that last month relatively quiet?
Veteran: Yeah. We spent maybe a week outside of Catherine. One of the guys, I think it was
Larry Marquardt, who did not get wounded on July 22nd in my platoon. We are out there. We got
new FO because the other one was killed. And he’s putting in registration around. And he
figured so, you—lots of times their first round they’ll use smoke to figure out where they are.
Hey, he was sure where he was. We hadn’t moved far. We had him fire a high explosive round
and it wasn’t where he was waiting for it to explode. And it came close to us and one piece came
and hit Larry Marquardtt in the leg. Broke his leg. So, he went out. So, that was his story. He
made it through the 22nd but he couldn’t make it through when we are not getting shot at. And
then we found out that, when we tried another round, which was—they use a smoke round for
the next one—and the artillery guys were all screwed up. So, then we tried it with the mortars
and the mortars put it right where we expected it to be. So, what happens is sometimes the guns
�66
get shifted and they don’t realign them. And so, we think that’s what had happened. So, for the
rest of the time we were out there, we just used the mortars. They were paying attention to detail.
And we had nobody coming after us. From there, they took—sent us over to Rakkasan. And we
provided security at Rakkasan for maybe…I don’t know, maybe a month. I don’t know how long
we were there, and I don’t know if we went back out in the field or not. But middle of
September, I was given the rear assignment. And mine ended up being supply officer for
headquarters company for 3rd brigade. And that’s how I spent…and being in the rear was nothing
to me. (02:16:10)
Veteran: We would get mortared, and I would just—I wouldn’t wake up. I’d sleep through it. I
woke up the first time we got mortared. And the mortars—the NVA would just throw three
rounds in at 2 o’clock, 3 o’clock in the morning to, you know, screw with your sleeping. And
then the siren would go off and everybody would run to the bunkers. And a half hour later, the
siren would go off and it was all clear and we would all go back to sleep. I did that the first time.
A couple nights later, it happened again. Well, we were—I am sleeping in a hooch now. I could
actually—I got a roof over me. I got netting around me and I have, you know, 5 feet of sandbags
piled around the whole outside. In reality, unless the bomb—unless the mortar landed in the
hooch, you weren’t going to probably get hurt. You know? So, I guess in my subconscious I just
thought oh, it’s nothing. So, I slept through the next one. And the next morning my mechanics
and supply clerks said, “LT, where were you last night?” I said, “What do you mean? I was
sleeping.” “No, when they mortared us?” They said, “Well, you didn’t show up at the bunker.” I
said, “Oh, I didn’t wake up.” They said, “What?!” And these are guys who had never been in the
field. So, you know, everything was really scary to them. I said, “I didn’t wake up,” I said, “but
look guys, I am probably not going to wake up when we get—this is harassment fire, and I will
�67
probably just sleep through it. But if you guys go to the bunker and there’s a lot more firing
going on, send somebody over to my hooch to get me up because I am in charge of unit defenses
if we get the attack. If it’s more than 3 or 4 rounds, there might be an attack going on, so I need
to be awake then.” And that’s…but again, it was the difference in what you expected.
Interviewer: Sure. Yeah, I mean what was the sort of the atmosphere like? Or like, I mean,
back there on the base rather than being out in the field? (02:18:08)
Veteran: Well, the guys I worked with, they were very nervous. But because they had not seen
anything. And so, you know, everything made them nervous because they had heard all the
stories. But they just said they weren’t seeing the stories that, you know, it wasn’t happening to
them, but they thought for sure it was going to happen any minute. The other thing is there were
issues in the rear. There was pot and other drugs and there was alcohol. When I first went to the
rear, the Army did not allow you to drink regular alcohol unless you were an E-6 or above. If
you were—if you had—you could be 40 years old, you couldn’t buy it. You know? And the
old—we all got ration cards. I think we got three quarts of liquor a month, three bottles of wine,
and so many cases of beer. Well, I didn’t drink. But I had a supply sergeant who was helping me
out and he drank. So, I took care of him. I gave him the liquor because he used his ration card up
and he’d use mine up too. But later on, they changed the rule. They said because the Army
recognized that you’re forcing the guys to find some other way, so they are going to pot. So,
that’s what they did. They changed the rule, and so if you were 21 you could buy alcohol. But
pot was available. But the guys that used it were just as dumb as could be because they would get
caught and they’d get an Article 15, and they would get written up and they’d lose more money.
And then they would complain that the first sergeant is always picking on them. Then they
would smoke another joint out there in front of the hooch and get caught again. Or they would
�68
end up having to burn shit all the time, you know, because the way they handled it…You know,
if you—we had latrines and they were just outhouses and they had half a drum, you know, cut
halfway of a 55-gallon drum. And all the, you know, all the crap went into that. And of course,
they didn’t want to infect the Vietnam with our germs, so we had to burn it. We—they would
mix it with fuel oil, and they’d light it up and the guys had to stir it. (02:20:26)
Veteran: Terrible odor and it was considered to be a really bad job. And you usually got that—
everybody, all the enlisted men, probably had an opportunity but if you were always screwing
up, you always got to burn it. That means you had to go down to the latrine, pull out the full
barrels, put in new ones, take them and load them up onto the mule, which is a little ATV, and
then haul it out to a certain location up on the hill. And you take them off, light them up, sit there
and stir them until they are all burned up and then put them back. Hell of a way to spend your
day. But the drug issue was back and forth. It was more prevalent with the guys that were in the
rear. Very seldom you see in the jungle the guys—other guys wouldn’t tolerate it. They didn’t
want anybody—they didn’t want you drinking, you know. You know, and guys once in a while
would bring a beer out there. And I am sure there was—I know there was alcohol out there here
and there. But the guys were not getting looped. And they made sure they were paying attention.
And I—when Lieutenant Brennan was out there for the FO, he had a bottle of whiskey with him.
And you know at the end of the day, we’d be at the CP talking to the captain and he would break
out and give everybody a shot. And you know, that was just—that was it, you know. But…
Interviewer: Now, did—were there discipline problems out in the rear that got worse? I
mean, were there racial issues or things like that? (02:22:00)
Veteran: I didn’t experience any but they—I knew they were around. I was aware of them.
Within the unit that I was dealing with, anybody—you know, the black guys and the white guys
�69
who were in the supply unit? They were all happy to be here, thank you very much. It’s, you
know, it was a good job. And so, they didn’t have issues. Some of the other guys that were not
assigned strictly to my section, they had issues and they would get on the wrong side of the first
sergeant. And this one guy, I talked to him a couple times. I said, “You know, what do you—
what are you doing? You are just shooting yourself in the foot and you have got nothing to gain
by this.” So, but you know…It’s the way it was. But there were racial issues and they got worse
as time went by. By the time I left, in ’71, it was becoming more of an issue. Again, I didn’t
experience it. But I didn’t have any prejudice…any obvious prejudice. I mean, there might have
been subconscious, but I went through, you know, all through grade school—I’d say 20-30% of
the kids were black. You know, that’s who I played ball with, that’s who I hung out with. You
know, black kids, white kids, it’s all the same to me. And I didn’t realize there was racial issues
until I started watching the news in the ‘60s, you know. But again, and I knew that there were
people who, when I went and got into high school, there were people who, you know, didn’t like
blacks and I couldn’t understand their reasoning because…you know. It was just that way.
Interviewer: Now, did you ever get an R and R?
Veteran: I did go on an R and R. I finally got that the—after I came out of the field, I went on R
and R to Hawaii with my wife. I met her there. By that time, I had—by the time I got out of the
field, it turns out I had another case of cellulitis. And it was now eating into the flesh on my shin.
And so, when I came out of the field, I had a scab wound on it. I thought it was just nothing
special. And I went to the—stopped at the hospital and I said, “Will you check this out?” and so
they looked at it and they said, “Oh, yeah it’s a form of cellulitis.” They said, “Here.” They
ripped off the scab. They didn’t bother to give me any local or anything. (02:24:19)
�70
Veteran: They said, “Yeah, we got to clean that out.” And so, they said, “Hold still.” He said,
“It’s going to hurt a little bit.” They said, “Probably a really good idea if you hyperventilate a
bit.” I said, “Really?” he said, “Yeah.” I start hyperventilating. He starts cleaning it out, and you
know, scrubbing it, and it…Ah, you know it hurts like hell. And then finally he says, “Okay.” He
says, “Yeah, that looks good.” He says, “Now we got to pack it.” He says, “You might want to
hyperventilate.” Oh yeah, whatever happened to Novocain? I don’t know but probably because I
was an officer they didn’t want to. So, you know, so then they take this gauze and it’s about three
feet of one-inch-wide gauze. And it’s like a tincture of iodine on it or something. And they take
that, and they start stuffing it under the skin in this hole that is about…oh, probably two by four
inches long. And they are stuffing it under the skin and finally they pack it all down and then
they put a bandage on it and hook me up to an IV and I get—this time I got tetracycline and
glucose. I went back there, found myself a bed, got four liters of that and then every morning
they would come there, take the bandage off, pull the gauze out, look at it, say, “Oh, look! You
can see the white granules there? That’s the new flesh forming. Looking good. Got to put some
more gauze there.” And so, by the time I went on R and R, I still had an opening there, but it was
reduced. And they said, “Well, we can, you know, to make it faster, we will do a skin graft.” I
said, “Where are you going to get the skin?” “Oh, we will take it off your butt.” I said, “Oh, so I
will have a sore spot here and a sore spot on my leg? Will it heal otherwise?” They said, “Yeah.”
I said, “Okay, I will wait it out.” (02:26:14)
Veteran: So, when I got to Hawaii with my wife, I couldn’t go in the water, you know. But we
had a good time. We went to—road around Oahu. Well, it doesn’t take too long to ride around
Oahu. Went to the zoo and just hung out. And it was sort of a daze for me. My wife, that was her
first long, really long, trip. She flew from Jersey all the way to—essentially nonstop—to Hawaii.
�71
So, she left our daughter back with my mother and her mother. And then, I got back. So, then I
finished up my tour and I went out to a firebase again. We had to—we went out to Camp Carroll.
I think in February they were setting that up, so I took my guys out there, the supply guys, to get
things set up and we were there for maybe a week or so. But it was kind of nice and we didn’t
have to go out in the sun. We had nice underground storages. So, it was pretty good. And then I
finished up my tour and then…and while I was there, I had also—I went down to Da Nang on a
regular basis looking for supplies. We’d go down there to salvage parts off of other trucks and
stuff, so I’d take a mechanic and we’d do that. And we’d spend the night there and then we
would come back.
Interviewer: So, now you are actually seeing areas that have a civilian population in them
and all that fun—
Veteran: Yeah, and I took pictures when I—because by then, I picked up a single lens reflex
camera, so I’d take that along and I’d be shooting pictures as I am going along. And I did—I got
this one picture, I was going to bring it this year, I forgot. When we are going through Huế, there
is a movie theater there and they had the billboard, and they had this big picture up there. And
it’s all—it’s in French. And it’s…I think it said it was 12 Hours in Hell. It’s a war film. And they
have a picture I think of Rex Harrison or somebody up…Anyway, it’s some guy. They got this
whole big thing up there and I am thinking well this is good: here we are in the middle of a
warzone, they are showing war films. So, I took a picture of that. (02:28:28)
Veteran: And I blew it up into—they had the—a photo lab available for us to use. So, I ended up
blowing it up like this and have all these Vietnamese in front of it and it’s 12 Hours in Hell. And
I said, “Yeah, that’s kind of appropriate.” But it just amazed me that…you know, but life in
Huế…they were going on with business as usual. They very seldom at that point got any activity
�72
by the Viet Cong or the NVA. And that was always further out because we had, you know,
secured the area pretty well; but that changed after we left.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, so when do you actually leave Vietnam?
Veteran: I left Vietnam around the middle of…I think it was the 15th of March.
Interviewer: Of ’71, now?
Veteran: Of ’71.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then I flew from there directly to Travis Air Force Base in Washington, in Fort
Lewis. And I checked out of the Army there. They…and I liked that they said, “Oh yeah, do you
have any ailments? Before you leave.” You know? “If you do, you know, we will have a doctor
examine you and we will treat them before we let you go.” Well, heck. You know? How is your
hearing? Okay, okay, okay. You checked everything off and oh, I am out of here.
Interviewer: Now, did you only have a two-year active duty obligation?
Veteran: That was my only active duty obligation at that point. And then I was supposed to be
on—in the Reserves for another six. And then on standby for a few years after that. Well, I got—
so, I finished up there. They gave me a ticket, gave me all my money. I flew home. My family
picked me up at…in Philly. And before I left, I had wrote a letter to the Fish and Game saying,
“Hey, got a job? I am coming back.” And they nicely wrote me back, saying, “Well, we are not
hiring right now but we will keep you in mind if something happens.” And so, then when I got
home, I looked up the guy I had worked with for two summers. And he said, “Well, whenever
you get back, I’d like you to work with me.” (02:30:33)
�73
Veteran: And so, I got back, and I talked to him. Told him, you know…he said, “Yeah, we are
not hiring right now.” He said, “Give me your phone number. If something comes up,” he said,
“I will let you know.” So, I collected unemployment for 3 or 4 months and then I was entitled to
it for a year. And it was pretty good money. So, I started looking for jobs in other states in
wildlife. And then after about 6 months, I get a call from my old boss. He says, “You still
looking for a job?” I said, “Yeah.” He says, “Well, I got a guy working for me. He is about ready
to resign.” I said, “Really?” I said, “Good.” He said, “Well, I will let you know.” About two
weeks after that, he says, “Alright, he’s resigned. Come on up and sign up the papers.” Well, I
found out years later: the guy that was about ready to resign? He was always fighting with my
eventual boss. And they would have these drag out arguments. And so, the other crew could hear
them 100 yards away through the buildings, you know. And the—Bob was his name—Bob
would get so pissed off at Freddie that he said, “God damn, Freddie, I quit.” And he said—and
Freddie said, “Alright! Good!” and then Freddie would call Trenton up and say, “Well, Bob
quit.” He said, “Do you have that in writing?” He said, “Well no.” He said, “It’s got to be in
writing.” So then, Freddie made up a resignation for Bob. And the next time they got into a big,
heated argument, he pulls out the resignation when Bob says, “I quit.” He says, “Oh yeah? If you
do, sign that.” And Bob signed it. That’s how I got a job.
Interviewer: I guess it worked a little better for you than it had for Bob? (02:32:06)
Veteran: I lasted with Freddie for 12 years before we couldn’t—before I couldn’t deal with him.
You know, I have more tolerance than Bob did. And Bob ended up out of Fishing and Game, but
he was still working for the state. He moved over. I think he ended up in radiation and
then…And I ran into Bob years later and he still liked Freddie, he said, he just couldn’t work
with him. And I understood that. So, but—and so, technically that was probably going to be the
�74
end of my career. But then in 1973 I got a notice from the Army to show up for two weeks of
summer training in Fort Polk, Louisiana again. And it’s like…and it says, “If you do not report,
you will be—you could be activated for six months.” Well, I am in—I work for the state of New
Jersey. If you have any service time, they will pay, you know, for—Guard or anything else—
they will pay while you are away for the two weeks. So, I got their pay and then the Army paid
me at the same time. So, they flew me down there. I went to—I got to Fort Polk. I got there,
come to where I was supposed to report, report in. The guy says, “Who are you?” I said, “Lee
Widjeskog. I am here reporting. Here is my orders.” He looked and he said, “Oh, you are a
filler.” I said, “Whatever you say.” He said, “Hell, fillers never show up.” I said, “Well, I am
here.” “Okay. Well,” they said, “check in tomorrow. We will see what we have for you.” I
checked in: nothing. Check in another day: nothing. So, in the meantime, I am sitting at the—
down at the officer’s club, sitting by the pool reading books. And then finally, after about a
week, they finally said, “Well,” they said, “how about if you give a class?” I said, “Alright.” And
they said—I said, “What do you want me to give?” They said, “Well, sit in on this class that we
are having today.” So, I went there, sat in on a class, took notes. They said, “Give that class
tomorrow.” I came back the next day, gave the class. And then the following day I said, “Well,
do you guys want me to do it again? Or what?” They said, “No, that’s good.” And so, I check in;
that’s all I did. Two weeks, you know, two weeks go by. I got home. And then I didn’t hear from
the Army again until they said my commitment was up years later. (02:34:20)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have any trouble sort of readjusting to civilian life? Other
than sort of being touchy about helicopters?
Veteran: Not really. Again, it was—to me it was like I didn’t think that anything special
happened to me. It was just…it was just—I just assumed everything was that way. And I didn’t
�75
know anybody else. I didn’t have contact with anybody else who was in the service—had been in
the service during that period. So, I started working for Fish and Game because I—and I had to
take tests but because I was a veteran, I’d go to the top of the list if I passed the test. But I came
out high anyway, so it was sort of a moot point. So, some people knew that I was a veteran, but it
was—nobody said anything one way or another. And I really didn’t think about Vietnam again
until I think it was ’75 or ’76. I was out hunting in the morning. I come off of the marsh and as I
am walking down this old railroad bed, two other guys come from the other way. So, we stop
and talk. And I am talking to this one guy. He is asking how the hunting was and, you know,
what the birds are doing. And as I am talking to him, I am looking and I am thinking damn, he’s
familiar. Who is this guy? And I couldn’t place him, you know. And then finally, 10 minutes go
by and he says, “Oh, see you later.” And I walked about…oh, I didn’t walk, you know, 50 steps
and oh, that’s John Sherba. He was a medic for recon, and I got to know him while I was in the
rear. And I had his address, but I hadn’t looked him up. And so, I turned around and I said,
“John!” and he turns around, “Lee, right?” I said, “Yeah!” So, we—then we talked for about an
hour, hour and a half. Well, it turns out he was one of the guys who went to the first reunion for
Ripcord. And he and I would be in contact. He was suffering from—he had a lot of post
traumatic stress issues. And I went to visit him at his house. He’s got a couple kids and his wife.
And he’s got loaded guns literally in all the corners. Loaded pistols up on the shelf here. He
was…My wife said, “He’s kind of a scary guy, isn’t he?” (02:36:23)
Veteran: I said, “Well, yeah sort of, but he saw a lot of bad things.” And so, he was suffering for
that. And nobody was recognizing post traumatic stress at that point. But he was adjusting. He
ended up running his own business as a concrete worker, brick layer. And he adjusted to his
situation. And eventually he did go in for counseling and he’s doing, you know, he’s doing as
�76
well as you can expect. He’s had other issues, health issues. He ended up with hepatitis C from
being in Vietnam and so he’s really on 100% disability, but he’s had heart issues. But that, you
know, we are all getting old. But and then, I would talk to him every so often, see him once in a
while. We’d both run into each other at the Ducks Unlimited Dinners, because we both go to—
and he says, “Oh yeah, they are starting this newsletter.” And that was Chip Collins starting it
up. He says, “I will send you a copy.” And he didn’t but then he’d talk about the—when we’d
see him again, we’d talk about it. And then he says, “Yeah,” he says, “I have been talking to your
boss, Chuck Hawkins.” He says, “He’s out there.” I said, “Really?” I said, “Say hi to him.” I
didn’t have any special desire to go see anybody. But I’d talk about it. And again, it wasn’t—that
was it. And then finally, he said he went to this reunion and had a good time. And there were
only 12 guys. And that was up at North Jersey. And he had asked me if I wanted to go, and I had
no interest. And then finally, it was in—I think in ’92—Hawkins tracks me down through the
internet. And if you’ve got a name like Widjeskog, it’s pretty limited. So, and in ’92, there were
very few Widjeskogs on the internet because the internet wasn’t as wide as it was.
Interviewer: Right. (02:38:12)
Veteran: Now there is a lot because you’ve got all these Finns that are…
Interviewer: People in Finland, yeah.
Veteran: Yeah. But so, Hawkins calls me up at home and he had my phone number. And so, I
ended up—I wasn’t home at the time—I got a message. So, then I called him back and I was
talking with him. And we—so, he said, “Yeah, you ought to think about the reunion.” So, then I
started getting the newsletter. He made sure I got the newsletter. And so, then by—I think it was
’97—I finally said, “I got to go to a reunion.” And they were having one in Mobile, but I
�77
couldn’t make it because I had already committed to running the Ducks Unlimited Dinner, which
is the same time period. So, the following year it was going to be in Atlantic City. I said, “Well, I
have to go. If it’s this close, I can’t avoid it.” And so, I went to that one and I told Chuck I was
coming, and he went and ended up being there. Now, that’s where I met Frank Marshall, the
general. And I was very—a lot of anticipation and I wasn’t sure this was going to be fun. And
when I finally got there, I see all these old guys. I was 55 and I was old too; I forgot that you
know. And there was only about 25 or 30 guys there. And—but you know, having—I worked
with the public a lot, so I just treated it as, you know, I introduced myself and just chat them up
and I met, you know…So, I started talking to guys. And I found out that really, it was very
comfortable. And from then on, I have gone to every one since.
Interviewer: Well, you have taken kind of a very important role in helping run the show.
Veteran: Well, and that came just because…again, I was always doing these things like I did
Ducks Unlimited, I was committee chairman for…you know, 30 years. And I was also doing that
for the Turkey Federation for another 20 years at the same time. You know, and then I—so, I
was used to organizing the events and putting them on. And so, I was going to these and you
know, I felt kind of guilty. I am not used to just sitting around. And then, Fred said, “Well, you
know, I really need—I am going to need somebody to take over.” He said, “I just can’t do this.”
And so, I volunteered. I said, “Well, I’ll take it over.” And at that time, Frankie had taken over
the—Frank Marshall had taken over the newsletter because Chuck did not have enough time to
do it anymore. And he was being criticized by some: “Ah, you don’t get it out fast enough.” And
so, and that really—those are things that keep everything operating. (02:40:45)
Interviewer: Right.
�78
Veteran: But—and the book had come out too. So, it’s about 2006 and Fred said, “Well, here’s
what you got to do: you do this and do this, and you book this way to figure out where you are
going to be.” He said, “Well, I have got this—I got the hotel set up for the next couple years and
we will see about—you can take that over.” And then he never relinquished that portion of it. He
really liked doing that. He did not like doing the day-to-day stuff with the reunion when people
came in, stuff like that. Which I had no problem with it. My wife—I am lucky because, you
know, she likes to do it. She is willing to do all this stuff with me.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I mean, it is—it makes it really easy. And she did the same thing with me at Ducks
Unlimited. And you know, she’s the same woman that I married before I went to ‘Nam. So,
there’s a few of us that surprisingly that we’ve—
Interviewer: Yeah, messing up that stereotype.
Veteran: Yeah. I know. It’s, you know…and Gary Foster? Same thing. He and his wife were
married before he went to Vietnam. And Fred Gilbert. More and more, I find these guys.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, I have encountered a fair number just across the different areas
and, with that kind of thing. So—
Veteran: Yeah. And people do get divorced.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And you know—and I—a bunch of guys worked for me when I was at Fish and Game
and they never went to ‘Nam and they have all been divorced too. So, there’s other—there’s—
you know, ‘Nam was not to blame. It might have been auxiliary, but it was—the marriage was
�79
probably going to go down anyway. It just might have got down a little faster. But…and like I
said, I have always been very happy. The fact that, you know, I picked the right woman. And she
puts up with me; I couldn’t ask for anything better. So, and that’s how I ended up doing the
reunion. And I plan to do it as long as I am physically able to. (02:42:31)
Interviewer: Well, you do a really good job, and your wife does too. And I certainly
appreciate being able to come to these things. And if you are watching this and he’s got a
name tag just below where the camera is, Ripcord Reunion, and that is where we are today
as we are recording this. I’d like just to close here by thanking you for taking the time out
of your regular duties to come in and talk to me.
Veteran: Well, I appreciate it. I hope it helps.
Interviewer: It certainly will. (02:42:55)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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WidjeskogL1682V
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Widjeskog, Lee
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-10
Title
A name given to the resource
Widjeskog, Lee (Interview transcript and video), 2014
Description
An account of the resource
Lee Widjeskog was born in Bridgeton, New Jersey and grew up in that area, finishing high school in 1964. He attended Colorado State University and took ROTC training, and received his commission in the Army in 1969. He took infantry training at Fort Benning, Georgia and jungle training in Panama, and went to Vietnam in April, 1970. He became a platoon leader in A Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. His unit patrolled the area near Firebase Ripcord, and was involved in heavy fighting on July 22, when Widjeskog's platoon was separated from the rest of the company for several hours, and the company then had to spend the night in the field behind before being evacuated. For the rest of the summer he operated in the field around Firebase Katherine and Firebase Rakkasan until he was reassigned to the rear in mid-September 1970. He served as the supply officer for Headquarters Company of the 3rd Brigade until he left Vietnam on March 15, 1971. He has been an active member of the Ripcord Association for over twenty years, and he and his wife currently organize the annual reunions.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
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In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ebc2508dc8f3905f4653e2885d0a2e2.mp4
37fa89ddcc103eb9ff30fcce42d5cb1b
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1e0f9185b888653c0d0a472bc1d664d2.pdf
7af930ae8099c41259dd5833d261e319
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War:
Interviewee’s Name: Lawrence Vollink
Length of Interview: 1:22:29
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Larry Vollink of Jenison, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, so Larry, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with:
where and when were you born?
Well, this is Grand Rapids, Michigan, of course. Here we are, in Grand Rapids, and it all started
just down the road a ways in the Burton Heights area. We used to live there on Darwin right
behind the school and I lived right behind the big chimney; and I always thought that that
chimney was gonna fall on my house when we were kids there on Darwin. It was a wonderful
school, going to school there are Burton, and then we had to—we, after 9th grade, we we went to
South High.
Okay.
And for three years, and then I graduated South High back in 1965.
Okay, now what did your family do for a living when you were a kid?
Well, of course my dad was… he was quite poor, only had an 8th grade education, but he was
religious and so he would take our family to church and my mother and everything, so we found
a nice, you know, beautiful church to go to in the Reformed Church and…
Right. What kind of jobs did he have?
Oh, he worked for Kelvinator. And he loved the Kelvinator, working there, my mother of course
never worked a day in her life, you know…
…Outside of the home?
�Outta the just being a mother. Our kids, I had 4 sister and a brother, all younger than me and so
we had a very active neighborhood where I lived. Wonderful people and I love coming back here
from time to time, I come back here to Grand Rapids and now I’m back for good, since I moved
back here to Grand Rapids after 52 years being away.
Okay, so what did you do after you finished high school in ‘65?
Well, again I graduate from South High School and that’s a very well-known high school
because Gerald Ford, well you know, that’s his high school and Al Green, that’s his high school
and… so some famous people have come out of that high school and so while I was in the
college one of the things that I did at the church there—I went to camp, the church camp, and so
at the church camp as I was getting to make a decision in my life I decided, should I go into the
ministry or not? And… That was my first desire, was to go into the ministry, but then at the time
the Vietnam War was going on, so a lot of people—young people my age—were, you know,
after high school joining the army, going into the military, and probably I would say out of my
high school class there were probably at least 10. And of course one of them was killed that I
didn’t know until years later. So… the idea then, I had to find a bible college with my church
that I went to in Lansing, and the Great Lakes Christian College, actually they called it a Bible
College but it became later the Christian College, so in 1970 I graduated from the college. I
became a minister at a little church up north near Traverse City out in the country somewhere,
paying me $25 a week for my ministry, but so I had to kind of find jobs on the side to be able to,
you know, earn my own income. (4:20)
Okay, I’m gonna back up a little bit to a couple of things.
Yeah, sure!
One of them was, when you made the—did you consider whether or not to go to college at all? I
mean was that when you were in your senior year of high school, what affected the decision to
go to college rather than not?
Okay, well I had a decision to make, you know, whether to go—to join the army. Well, what
happened like 2 months before I was graduating around the month of March, April or March,
there were many, many men and women that were killed in Vietnam. I mean, Grand Rapids
Press talks about all the people that were killed and so, you know, that was kind of scary. Do I
really want to do this? And so, but my grandfather, he was able to help me pay for my college to
go for my first year, and so I went to the Bible College, they changed my draft-status from 1D to
4D, so that meant while I’m going to college I wasn’t gonna be able to be selected to go into the
service like my other high school friends were. So, I continued to stay there in the Bible College
and then I met my first wife, Suzie, and we became husband and wife in 1969. Her family was
�out of the Air Force, she was in France for a couple years during her high school so she had a
military background with her, and so later when it was time for me to go into the military it was
an easy decision with her.
Now for you, if you become, obviously while you’re in college you have a deferment for 4 years
but then if you become a minister after that then you’re exempt from the draft? (6:14)
Exactly, yes.
Okay, alright. And now—but you’re in college now at a Bible College at Lansing, Michigan, did
people pay much attention to the war, did they talk about the war while you were there?
Well, actually where I was at, no. That was not---I mean it wasn't like a, you know, Berkeley and
you know in California, there were no protests of any kind. I think they, in a way they supported,
from the churches, they supported whoever went. There was no, you know, there was no
negativity thing, you know, for the people that did go in. So there was, you know, whatever
happened with people if they did go in there were prayers that were given, there was support
given to families and so it was a positive thing from a Christian standpoint.
And was there any interest sort of in the peace movement or trying to encourage the end of the
war or did people just not discuss the politics?
That's most definitely, yes.
Okay.
We'll, the other part of it is they flew the flag, you know, proudly. They don't do this now but at
the time during when the---a lot of the churches, you'd have two flags: you'd have the Christian
flag and then you'd have the American flag on the pulpit stands. We'll, some of the Bible
Colleges now don't do that, they don't, you know, advertise having you know the American flag
because, you know, because if the idea that hey everybody, you know, the world is we're not just
honoring America, but you know we… So, but the flag was, that was, you know, people were
very patriotic during that time and it's sad how they came back though, of course, with Vietnam
when they came back they were not accepted and so. Later on that helped be my type of being
able to help people when they came back during Desert Storm. I was able to help out in that area.
Okay, so let's steer back: so basically after 1970 you get a small church outside of Traverse City,
how long did you stay there? (8:29)
�Probably about a year and a half, and it's just basically an old school house and an old church
next to the cemetery and at the time there were like only 8 people there. And a couple older men
in their 80s, and it was interesting me being a 20 year old and it was quite an experience being a
preacher there. But, of course because it didn’t pay very much I was looking for another church
and then I found on in Lapeer, Michigan and so I took the church there in Lapeer and again,
followed an older man that was there. I stayed at the Lapeer Church for a couple years and in
following that somebody asked me to come to Ohio, and then I took a congregation in Belle
Center, Ohio a little church, you know, where my ministry was very successful for about three
years and after that I wanted to kind of---again, looking I'm always thinking, you know, "Bigger
church, bigger church" being as young as I was and so I found another church in the Chicago
area in Keagen, Illinois.
Okay.
And then I had my Ministry there. And then it was at that time where I met people from the
Great Lake, the naval base there, and they said "Why don't you look into going into the
chaplaincy, the military chaplaincy?" So I looked into it, found out that I needed a master's
degree, so I went back to Grand Rapids and then I went to the Grand Rapids Seminary. Was
there for four years and got my master's degree in 1980 and joined the army, as a chaplain.
And then while you were stuck doing your master's how did you support yourself and your
family?
We'll, very easily, that's a good question. I just share something with you: when I left the church
there in---what, Waukegan, Illinois? it was a sad situation because I had been there for two and a
half years and I thought, "Well, you know, I'm not too sure this is gonna work. It looks like I
might have to just maybe get into a different kind of… maybe a career " Because here I was, I.
less than three years I've been in three churches and, actually four counting the little one, and
they…so when I moved back, I tell the story, when I moved back to Grand Rapids just down the
road here I stayed at the apartment complex down here, just here on 36 and Clive Park. The first
two weeks I needed to get a job and then I needed some money to pay for my expenses for my
stay there, so I got a job within two weeks, I got a job and the first two weeks I got a paycheck
and the amount of what I had… well actually, I had a check that was out on my door for $834
and it was anonymous, nobody signed the check. And I went "Where did this come from?" Well,
it was kind of an odd figure, it wasn't an even number it was like 834. We'll, two weeks later,
after I'm back here in Grand Rapids when I get my first paycheck, it's the same amount. And that
covered for my expenses and somebody up above was telling me, "This is where you need to
be." and that was kind of one of those signs, you know, that this is a good thing which you did
and so it was an easy thing.
�All right. Now did you have a job as a minister again or doing something else? (12:32)
Yup. Well I did, and I was up in Big Rapids and we were living up there, there was a church
called Roger Heights Christian Church and just outside of Big Rapids. So I ministered to the
church, and then my wife was still here, we were living over here for awhile and she worked at
General Motors, and I worked at Steelcase. And so before I joined the military I had to give up
my two jobs, you know, Steelcase and GM and became a, you know, a military officer You're
commission, you're not enlisted but when you go in as an officer and of course the family said
"Are you sure you want to do this? You're leaving Steelcase, you're leaving General Motors,"
you know, "You got a nice income, everything is beautiful, why are you doing this?"
Okay, I guess I'm just trying to sort the employment history out a little bit: you had the church in
Big Rapids and then did you leave that to work at these other jobs, or?
We'll that was first and kind of like, actually you know it's really busy. I had the church and I
had, you know, GM and Steelcase.
You did all of those things at the same time?
Yes, yes. And then I was doing my seminary.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that was me. Very busy, with two sons.
I was gonna ask that too: any kids? Yeah, okay.
Two sons and my wife was really busy and yeah, if was quite an experience when we left, but in
1980 is when we came in to the military.
Okay, now do they send you---do you do a form of basic training before you actually do
anything else?
Well… you could probably call jt---they call it basic training but it's, you know when they have
chaplains they kind of go easy with chaplains.
I'm not expecting a lot of calisthenics, I guess.
You know, well, yeah.
�You still do PT? (14:32)
Yeah, you still have to do the PT, you still have to do the PT test which is, you know, very
difficult. And so yeah, you do the sit-ups, you do the pushups, you do the sit-ups and… yeah,
you do the 2-mike run. And at the age of 33 it was pretty hard for me.
Where were you doing that training?
Well, I started bout at the Chaplain School. And the Chaplain School for the army is in For
Monmouth, New Jersey. Now… years later they moved to Fort Jackson so that's where the
school is now, everything happens at Fort Jackson. But, yeah, Fort Monmouth… when we
started out there were probably… I would say… probably about 25 to 30 chaplains, new
chaplains that were coming on board that you work with and you train with and… it was a
beautiful experience then, you know? and now… If I think back I would never, you know, think
of wanting to do anything else. This is what I enjoy doing.
Were all of the trainees men?
We had, let me think… at that time, yes. But then later on we had some women that became
really good chaplains. One became a friend of men that worked in my church; it's a little hard for
some churches, you know, for woman to be pastors. Some churches, you know, in some
churches it's accepted and other church's it's not.
Yeah, but I'm asking for the other side, how the military delt with that, but they were allowing
women to become chaplains at a certain point?
Absolutely.
All right.
That's never changed, it's a good thing.
Okay. Now how long was that chaplain school?
Well, the first---when you do the Chaplain School, the first one, you do the basics and that's like
6 weeks. And then they assign you to wherever they want you to go as chaplain, and I got
assigned to Fort Campbell in Kentucky. And then you come back three years later and you go to
the advanced course back to New Jersey, and that's for 6 months, the advanced course. And so
those are the only two chaplain training programs that they have.
�All right, and do you do the advanced course before being promoted to captain or was that not
really linked that way?
Well, when I came in I came in as a captain.
Okay. So you weren't—---you came in as captain? (17:19)
Yup, automatically you become a captain, but about three or four years later they changed it to
being a first lieutenant. So you started out as a first lieutenant and then later you become a
captain automatically after 6 months.
Okay. so, now you go to Fort… Okay, so you're at Fort Campbell, Kentucky and what unit was
based there?
The 101st airborne. Of course that's a real elite group, particularly during the Vietnam War
anand awhile even before that, during World War II.
Right.
You know. And it used to be the airborne and Fort Bragg or Fort Benning---Fort Brag is also
airborne. But later on through the years they took the airborne out of it and it became the air
assault where they repelled a lot of helicopters. And then at that time that's what I did, so I never
was able to jump out of an airplane but I did the repelling and did that kind of training and it was
tough for the chaplain to do that---it took me twice to do that. It's a… like a two week course.
So you go out of Fort Campbell and now you get kind of an introductory course, welcome to the
101st? So you… aside from learning how to repel out of a helicopter what did they teach you?
Well, how to survive out in the field. That's the main thing. And… I can tell you just like a day's
work for a chaplain, like on a Sunday, it's not your normal Sunday that pastors have. And so
when I first came there, there were like 25 other chaplains and they'll assign you a chapel to
minister to. You're assigned on a unit, a battalion, with about.. that's about 550 soldiers. And
my unit they were Infantry soldiers and if course you spend a lot of time out on the field training
and that kind of thing, but just a normal week would mean is basically you do a lot of
counseling. You're like right next door to where those guys are and you know, "Chaplain can I
talk to you?" you're just loaded with all kinds of questions and different things and, you know,
you're busy during the week. Then your Sunday comes. My particular Sunday… well, it started
out usually, at 7 o'clock in the morning. I would go over to the stockade where, you know, there's
about 50 guys that are there in the stockade that are being dogged out by the drill sergeants and
that kind of thing. But they'll offer them a chapel service in the morning and so usually they'll
�come… they were probably about 7:30 in the morning. I'll have a chapel service but maybe
about 10-20 guys.
And just a reference for people who don't know the vocabulary, stockade is basically the base
jail?
Yeah.
Where guys who got in trouble the night before wind up or.
Yup, exactly, that’s what we call the stockade so, yeah. Then right after that I would get in my
car and go over to the high school and because of the—there would only be, at the high school,
there would be the Sunday School program with the adults. And so it had kids that were there
and then we’d have, you know, they asked me to teach the adult class. So now I had the stockade
at 7 and they also asked me to teach the adult class, and I said “Oh, I can do that.” You know, “I
got about 10 years experience, I can do that.” So then they assigned me to the chapel and then I
had to be at the chapel at about 10:30, 11:00, and I would do a chapel service there and usually
there would be about… probably, on the average, about 60 in attendance. And then after that
about 12:30 I’d take my family over to the officer’s club and get a meal, you know, they had a
nice buffet for the people there. And then I’d go back home, you know, put my boys to bed and
then my chaplain assistant would come pick me up in the Jeep and we’d go out into the field
where there would be training going on, and usually I’d have a little chapel service of about 10
maybe 2 or 3 different times during the Sunday. And then I would come back, usually I’d get
back about 5 or 6 o’clock and then my church that I was associated with, I went to their church
services at night and I’d get back about 8 o’clock, and then Monday morning I had to get up for
5 o’clock run, a two-mile run with the battalion and… my commander didn’t care what you did
on Sundays, the only thing he was concerned about was whether you made it to that 5 o’clock or
6 o’clock two-mile run with the battalion, and then, you know, then it started a normal week. So
that’s my—that was my work on a Sunday.
All right. Do you remember which battalion you were attached to? (22:41)
Yes, the first—we’ll call that the first of the 503rd, 3rd brigade and yeah, it was a tough unit.
They were… they had gotten some, you know, during the Bastogne time, if you remember the
WWII times where they had did a jump and did the air assault. I mean, I’m not—
Well they drove into Bastogne.
Bastogne, yeah, the paratroopers.
�Right, yeah.
And that was one of the highlights of their history, and so I was a part of that. That unit. So,
yeah.
Okay. All right, now.
This is going good!
Talk a little bit about the kinds of things that the men would come to talk to you about. What
sorts of issues or problems would they bring in?
Well, you know, suicide of course. That hasn’t ever changed, I mean we still have the suicide
promise today, veterans are still dealing with it and of course in the military it was even stronger.
Sometimes they wanted to get out and, you know, they said here’s what they would do, “Here,
chaplain, here’s what I’m gonna do since they’re not gonna put me out, I’ll make sure they put
me out because I will overeat and make sure I don’t pass the PT test. All those kinds of things,
you know, the negative things that would cause them to go ahead and put me out.” So, and a lot
of times that was the kind of counseling that they were asking me. So, you know, it’s… of course
depression, stress, and you got it—so, there’s a lot of different things like that, you know. And I
work at the VA now and those are kinda like the same things, you know, that these men have.
Okay. Now the people who came and told you they wanted to get out, did you make any
suggestions about more sensible ways of doing it or more stand-up ways of doing it? (24:49)
Well they, the number one was trying to over-eat. I mean at that time, they didn’t want anybody
in the military that was overweight, so.
Right.
So there were guys up to 19 years, okay, I know one man he was in the military for 19 years and
they put him out cause he was overweight. They didn’t care whether he finished up on his 20, so
you know, that’s the kind of strict regulations in the army then.
Were there ways that they could simply leave or get out early, could they petition for that or
were there legal ways of getting out early?
Well, I’m trying to think… not, well probably the only other legal one was when, you know, if
you were gay, okay? They had what they call a Chapter 9 and you’d get like a Chapter 9 and
then, you know, you would got the paperwork and, you know, they would put you out during
�that time. Right, so, other than that... Yeah, it was difficult. You had to either go with the train or
not.
Now with a large unit like that, you said you had 25 chaplains or whatever on the base, did men
sort of choose which service to go if you had Catholics and different versions of Protestants and
so forth?
Oh yeah.
You’re getting, you know, if you have 60 people coming to your service, are some of them from
outside your battalion?
Oh yeah. Absolutely, yeah yeah. They were… my chapel was not in the battalion area, it was in
another brigade area and so the reason they gave me my chapel is because my church
background, we had communion every Sunday. So they would say “Okay, this chapel will have
communion every Sunday.” and then another chapel will be Episcopal, high liturgical.
Yeah.
And then this will be the Catholic and this will be the Jewish chapel and so that’s what they did.
The Pentecostal type thing. They kind of, you know, accommodate to whatever, you know, the
person’s religion was. So that helped with me being able to find the right chapel.
Right, okay. Now did you and your family live on the base? (27:14)
Oh yes, we did. Yeah, they provided housing for us and the other part of it was right next to the
golf course, so I liked the idea that, you know, once I’m getting down and, you know, sometimes
on Saturdays, you know, I hit the golf course. I had a golf friend, you know, “Larry, lets go
golfing!” you know, so that was kind of a neat thing. We always try to keep active when you’re
in the military and so, yeah the housing is a good thing, it’s… you know you meet good friends
while you’re there in the military, you become family with other families and, you know, the
other part of it is they’re still, you know, my friends after so many years. I still have contact with
them and, you know, we keep in touch. You know, the military is a family for life.
Now, was it a standard practice for the military to move the chaplains around from different
place to place?
Yeah, every three years.
Okay.
�Just like everybody else does, yup, we go every 3 years so, it’s time to go.
So after the 3 years at Fort Campbell where do you go next? (28:28)
Okay, I went to Germany and so when I went to Germany there I was assigned to the 36nd
addcom which is an air-defense artillery unit. And they had, the 32nd addcom, was spread out all
over Germany. They had probably a unit in about every other town., so they were scattered all
over from Germany, north to south to east to west and one of the things that I did was, as a
chaplain, I was assigned to a unit, like a unit that was attached to another unit, so my units were
basically scattered all over Germany. So then what my first one, when I first started out, they
assigned me a van, so one week I would go north and visit the troops up north. The next week I’d
go over to the East side over in Grafenwöhr and different places, and then the next week I’d go
south and then again the next week I’d go west.
So where was your home base?
Well, my home base was in Worms, Germany, you know the famous town was Worms,
Germany where the Martin Luther King was—
Well, Martin Luther.
—And did those things but I want to tell you about my unit, this is kind of an exciting thing, we
being scattered all over. I had a full-bird colonel who was assigned a jet so he would fly every
week to all these units during the week, and so sometimes he would go, you know, he’d go to
one unit one day and then he’d go to another unit another day, and so that’s how he did his
travel: with a jet. I was doing the van.
Yeah.
So what happened was, during his time of being in the states one of the planes went down in Fort
Campbell and, some people don’t remember this but they called it the Gander Airplane Crash
and there were 258 soldiers that were killed, and this was in Fort Campbell. And that happened
during the time when my commander was over in the states, so he came back to Germany, you
know, the first thing he does he calls me in the office, and said “Larry, I need to speak to you for
just a minute, but I need to have you lock the door. I need to talk to you privately.” So he told me
about how this had really affected him and because he went flying, you know, with the troops, it
made him very nervous. You know, he thought maybe his life would be in danger by his flying,
so he asks me, “I would feel much more comfortable if you, my chaplain, would fly with me. So
when I to the troops, throw the van away now and you’re gonna be flying with me, so we’re
�gonna be visiting the units this time and here’s what we’re gonna do: we’re gonna go in, I’m
gonna talk to the commanders first, give them a chew-out, and about a half hour later you as the
chaplain will come in and give them a shoulder to cry on.” (Vollink laughs.) And that was my
task of being able to see Germany from the air. So it was a beautiful assignment, I loved being
able to do that. I did that for about a year, so it was good.
And then you stayed in Germany for 3 years total?
Yes.
So after that, you did a year of all the flying around stuff and otherwise was it in the van back
and forth? (32:24)
Yeah, I got—the van was gone after that. So, well sometimes I would, you know, I had a van
assigned to me while I was there, so. Not a helicopter or a plane, but a van.
And you have your family with you at that point?
Oh yes. At that time I had 3 sons, you know, and they were with me. One of my sons was born in
Germany in Heidelberg.
And did you live on or off base then?
Well, they gave us an assignment off-base but it was a military subdivision, you know, assigned
for the military only. But we were basically off the base.
And did they have schools on the base or where did your kids go to? Kids old enough for schol?
That’s a good question. That’s a good question because they didn’t want you mixing with the
German families, so we usually had—wherever we would go we’ve had their own, you know,
their own schools. We’re family and that’s always been good too. So the military always
provided for our best, for our needs, it was a great experience. I wouldn’t trade it for anything in
the world, and I love Germany, it’s a beautiful place to be.
And how did the German people treat the American servicemen while you were there?
In some places it was good, other places it wasn’t, and of course you could tell, you know,
sometimes they’d give you the silent treatment. You know, that means “Don’t bother me.” Other
times you know it would be good. I had some good experiences when I was there, we used to go
to—when my son was first born—we used to go to one of the restaurants out in the country they
�had good food. Good German foods you could get there cheap, and so while we were eating I
had my little son that was born there and the waitress would come up and she would take him
and put him in her arms and, you know, go like this and she would just walk all around and say
“Look at this beautiful baby.” so that was a good experience, yes.
Were there any political tensions between the Americans and Germans at that point? (34:51)
No.
Because a little bit earlier, and we’re back in the 70s, there’s various terrorist groups and things
like that going on, I think they’re probably quieter by the mid 80’s and there may have been
some people that didn’t like Ronald Regan particularly, but on the whole if you felt negativity
was it just because you were foreigners or because you were American or you can’t tell?
Well I think they enjoyed us being there, but the tensions were not in Germany the tensions were
if you went to, like, to Greece? Some of the other countries like Turkey, or if you visited also
France, again some of those countries other than German, yeah you could sense the tensions
there, you know? A few were Americans. And so they kind of like, they would shun you
sometimes, that’s happened, you know I’ve gone to Greece there in Athens at the time and at
Crete, the island of Crete, we did some training there and once and awhile you could sense that
they were saying, “Ehh, we don’t” you know, but they’d like you to visit them of course.
All right, so your unit there, did you do a lot of stuff with other NATO forces or did you just stay
with the Americans?
Yeah, my units weren’t really involved with the NATO parts, you know? NATO was mostly up
in the Belgium areas in the other countries. So that was… yeah that was a different political part
of it, but Germany was very quiet in that area. But, yeah, the NATO part of it was way up there
and we didn’t really see anything that would cause us to, you know, get scared or nervous about.
Well, but it’s also just a question about like joint training exercises and things like that, cause
you have all of these different national armies and so forth.
Yup. At the time we didn’t have those, mostly Germany was where our units were, yup, that’s
what we focused on.
And did you work at all with the German military or was it just all Americans?
No, just all Americans, yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s probably still the same way there, going on
the same way.
�All right. Would you take your family touring around Europe while you were there?
Well I did at one time, I chose to go to England at the wrong time. I had this beautiful van that I
bought, Toyota Van, we call it the moon-thingy because it was a nice beautiful—it was a nice
family van. And of course we took it over to England over there, and we took it to do some
traveling and my parents, well actually my wife’s parents, were with us at the time. So when we
went over there that was around the 4th of July time frame, and it was basically Queen’s Day and
everybody came to London at that time and it was just like the 4th of July being down in
Washington DC on the 4th of July. And of course we had our van there and somebody broke into
it, stole the camera, stole some stuff out of it, so I had to stick around for a couple more days to
get my vehicle fixed so that I could go back home. Sweden is a beautiful place, I would love to
drive over in that area; Wales, you know, those are beautiful places, any time you’re out of
London it’s a beautiful place over there, you know. France, they were not too friendly so we tried
to stay out of the France area, same thing with Spain, you know, but Germany, Austria, beautiful
place and then England, you know, is a beautiful place so it was beautiful there and yeah. I loved
it being there.
All right, and then so after Germany, then, what’s the next stop?
Okay now the next stop would be the chapel school in New Jersey, we had 6 months there.
Again, you gain new friends, new chaplain friends, new men and families and those families they
stay in contact with you for years and so that happened for about 6 months, the training. I just
saw a picture of the chaplain school, advanced school, and a beautiful picture of the graduation
and that looked like about 40 people of the chaplains that had graduated and I remembered those
days when I was there. So then after that time—
Okay, so what do they actually teach you in the chaplain school at that level? What is different
from what you had the first time?
Well, mostly in how to just be an officer, with the higher echelon you get to study a lot of the—
you do some studying with wars, you know, and the backgrounds, you know, military type
things and you have a good understanding of what the military did in the past and…but yeah, a
lot of leadership type things, learning how to be an officer, you know, in the colonel level. That’s
basically that kind of training, and it was good training.
Were you still a captain at that point? (40:28)
Getting ready to—well, yes I was at that time. I was still a captain, it took me some time to
become a Major, so it’s a tough thing. I hate to say this, but in a military Sessing: your officers,
�your military commanders, if they’re gonna—you get an evaluation and what happens is the
chapel has to really be good to get the top block, but most of the time they don’t get the top
block, so what they’ll do it they’ll give their own military men, you know, mentored and that
kind of things. They’ll save the top block for those kinds of men and then they’ll put the chaplain
in the second or third block, so that’s just the way it is in the military. So, chaplains need to get
promoted really quick.
So basically, you’re doing a good job and you can stay on being a chaplain longer but you’re not
necessarily moving up? (41:34)
No.
Okay.
The ones that move up quickly for chaplains are the ones who get that top block from a
commander and if they get that top block you can very much count on them the be getting
promoted. But it doesn’t happen very much.
Okay. All right. Was there politicking around that kind of thing?
Well, yeah sometimes. It could be a political thing, I’ll gave you an example for one chaplain, I
used to tell the story about what happened to him, he was getting ready to be promoted, then to
be rated, he did something that he probably shouldn't have done in his career and that was: his
commander was driving a Jeep for his own personal reasons, you know? For his family and
different things, you know, and course the chaplain didn’t like that too well so he went to his
superior officer and told him about what he was doing. So, needless to say, it got back to him and
so when evaluation time came he got a low rating because he stood up for what he thought was
right. And sometimes chaplains have to do that, they have to stand up for whats right, but it the
long run another chaplain was able to still down the road a ways because of his good… being a
good chaplain for his military, you know, people. He did get promoted, so in due time God will
reward you. May not be your time, but it’ll be a later time.
And so, where did you go after chaplain school?
Well, okay then I got assigned to Fort Carson, Colorado Springs and that’s a beautiful place to
get assigned to. Of course I bought a house there up in the mountain shadows area on the other
side of the Colorado Springs area, and where I bought my house—where I lived was not too far
from the Flying W Ranch and where the mountains were and what we called Kissing Camels
where the red rocks are, you know? So I would take my two boys to school every morning, as I
was taking them to school they would see the red rocks. They would see, you know, the beautiful
�Colorado Springs and then where my house was at I would look outside the back window and I’d
see all the lights of Colorado Springs. I had the most beautiful view there when I was in
Colorado Springs and that was a beautiful thing, and a few years later after that there was a fire
that destroyed all of those homes including my home. Destroyed.
So this is a wild fire?
Yeah, the wild fires, yeah. It was terrible, back a few years back. So the house is gone.
Now, was your job there pretty much the same as it was when you were in Fort Campbell, doing
the same kind of thing? (44:47)
Again, you’re assigned a chapel, you’re assigned a unit, and I was able to minister to the unit, but
you know one you’re at that stage you know pretty much what you have to do every day, it’s not
full of stress. It wasn’t as stressful as what the first few years were and so at that time it was not a
stressful thing, what you did as a chaplain: you met other chaplains. You became families, you
know, and we had we used to play cards, and we used to do all kinds of things together, you
know, chaplains doing things with other chaplains and besides being a chaplain to your troops.
So that was a good experience too, you know, I met some really good [people] they’re still my
friends, you know, from years back so. Good things while being a chaplain in the military.
Now aside from the physical environment, was it pretty much the same kind of experience as
you had at Fort Campbell?
Well… yeah, there was still the same type of ministry, you know again they, your troops, had
still the same kind of problems, the suicidal problems, you know, family problems. The normal
situations that, you know, the troops would come to you as their chaplain, you know, and so we
always had an open door for them, you know, but as a chaplain you still had to do the runs, you
still had to do all those kinds of things and so it was a normal, it was a good thing. I can give you
an experience, I just shared this with someone yesterday: we were talking some… I was telling
them a little bit about one of my situations while there, I was asked the chaplain and what I did is
I’d have a luncheon and I’d have a guest speaker that would come in, and in Colorado Springs
Dan Issel, the big Denver Nuggets basketball star, I was able to have him come in and give a
speech and had a couple other guys that were US Olympic boxing champions that came in and
gave a speech during the lunch hour. So what I did is I would have—get my grills and grill some
hamburgers out in the back and so the first time I did this I only had maybe about 10 to 15 guys
that were there and I though “Oh, this is pretty good, I could feed that many guys.” so and then
they heard about the free lunch the next month, and then they heard about my speaker like Dan
Issel, and so I had a full house that day and I said “Oh no, I didn’t realize that I was gonna have
this many guys coming for my lunch.” and I didn’t buy a whole lot of hamburgers. I got really
�nervous, what am I gonna do? So I’m in the back there and then so I went to the front where the
office was at, where the microwave was, up on top of the microwave was this huge platter full of
hamburgers. I don’t know where they came from, but somehow they appeared and it’s like, God
just gave me all these hamburgers! I believe in the feeding of the 5000, you know? The two fish
and two loves, you know, and well I think I just had a miracle happen. Somehow those
hamburgers just appeared and I was able to feed all those guys, it was an amazing thing. So that
was a good experience with me when I was there. Sometimes you have to believe in some good
miracles that do happen and that’s what I believe.
All right. Anything else from that particular stint that stands out in your memory?
Nope, but again it was a great experience other than, you know, Colorado Springs is a beautiful
place.
All right, so what year did you finish up there then? (49:10)
That was in 1990. Oh, the other thing is that we were able to go to Honduras and we were able to
be there for—we did some training at Honduras and we took our unit there for like a couple
months and during that training exercise, up until the very last day the training exercise went
very well but the very last day we had one of the Jeep soldiers went down the hill and was killed,
and that was a sad thing for us as a unit. We were going back and we thought everything was
going great, and then at the very end somebody, you know, and so I had to minister to my
Commander, you know, cause he was just. He couldn’t understand why those things happen like
that, and so as a chaplain you have the troops and then you also have the ministry to your own
commanders when things like this happen, so. Yup.
Okay. All right, now what time of year did you move on then from Fort Carson?
Well, 1990 cause I was getting ready to end my 3 years. Then I had to have an assignment, well
my home was Michigan of course, and so the opening for Selfridge came up and I thought “Oh,
I’d love to go to Selfridge, it’s my home state.” and so then I came to the Selfridge Air National
Guard Base which is in Mount Clemens, north of Detroit about 30 miles, and they had assigned
housing and I was at the main chapel there and I was the chaplain there at the chapel plus, you
know, doing other kinds of things. So at that time I did a lot of weddings, you know, got asked. I
did that, at that time many weddings, I could have a wedding one day and a funeral the same day,
you know, there were a lot of different things I was kept really busy being there in the chapel. I
was known as the Protestant chaplain, and then we had a Catholic chaplain, so Protestant and
Catholic but that again was 3 years and was a good ministry there, too.
Okay, Selfridge is an Air Base.
�Right.
So what's an army chaplain doing at an air base?
Well, again, they at the Selfridge Air Base, they have the Navy, they had the Navy Reserves,
they had the 127th Air Force, and then they had the TACOM Army Base and so a lot of the army
personnel would work there either on the base or they would work at the, what they call the Tank
Automotive Command and the Tank Automotive Command was very instrumental to Desert
Storm, they sent a lot of tanks and different things I mean they did a lot of planning, research, my
wife also worked there at the plant and she was a—she had top secret clearance and worked for
two of the Generals that were there, so she had a really important job there, being there. So that
too was a good ministry, kept very active.
Now… Saddam Hussein went into Kuwait in 1990. When he went in were you still at Fort
Carson or had you gone to Selfridge by then? (52:51)
Yeah, that was just as I moved right again. But yes, at that time it was right at that time where I
moved from Fort Carson, you know, into Selfridge and so because of the war beginning at that
time my unit that was back at Fort Carson was getting ready to go over to Iraq at the time. And
of course the Commander called me up and said “Chaplain, we need you, can you help us?” and
I had a choice in that so I decided to stay there at Selfridge because I’m already there and, you
know, no sense… you know. But, yeah. So I stayed there in the unit there and during the Desert
Storm, when that was taking place, I was called and they told me, they said, “Chaplain,” they
said, “Now, here’s what you need to understand because we are at war, okay? We need—”
what’d they call it, “---a contingency plan if something happens to any of our men, even our
Chaplains. We need to know if you’re gonna be ready to go.” and I told them, I said, you know,
“Well, what else can you say? You go. I’ll be ready.” but of course we know that it didn’t
happen because the war was very quick, so what happened right after the war then is my—the
communities that were in the Selfridge area, they would give me a call because I was in active
duty, they said, “Can you come over and talk to us? You know, we have troops that are gone and
what are we supposed to do? How can we go about doing the right things for these men?
Because, you know, Vietnam did not do the right thing and we wanna make sure we do the right
thing for us when they come back.” So I gave them some ideas on how to do that and they did it
very well, they were happy for that.
What kinds of things did you recommend?
Well, of course you gotta be there when they fly in at the airport, starting right from when they
come into the airport you have to be there. You know, and be there to walk them home, you
�know, make sure the families are there, that you as your community, you help those families and
you’re there for them, too. The community needs to let them know that you’re there to help them
and to support them.
Now were there any units from Selfridge or that area that actually deployed? Or were you
looking to just individuals from different units? (55:30)
Well, at that time I don’t think there was, at the time that there was, not that I am aware of.
Though the Air Force was not only involved in it but they were of course, they were on stand-by
like everybody else was.
And you did have people from the different communities who were in different units, some of
them served and then came home.
Oh yes, most definitely from the National Guard, that kind of thing yeah. And also they were,
like, active duty in other units too so they were from the community but they were serving in,
you know, other areas. So that was important, and they did have a good welcoming I thought,
they did that well. Selfridge was very good at that and the Commanders. So we were good and
helping that.
All right, and did you work with people from different branches of the service there? Did you
have the airforce people or the Navy people come to your services or did you coordinate with
their chaplains?
Sure. Well, the Navy had a naval reserve over on the other side of the air field and then with the
Marines, we had the marines, we even had the woman’s with a WAC—different units we had, so
they were all there. The Navy chaplain in fact, they had a Navy Reserve chaplain, he came over
and helped me at the chapel, so we shared the chapel duties together. So when we were at the
chapel we had good coverage, you know, if I wasn’t gonna be there somebody was gonna be
there to help out and assist in that. So, yes…. Oh, yeah, I remember something we did have, I
remember. There was a couple during the Desert Storm just as they were getting ready to start.
The night before there was a couple that had gotten married and of course both of them went and
they were transferred and I remember, yeah, that was an interesting thing, yeah. And in fact what
happened was the night of Desert Storm we had a prayer service and we all know that this was
gonna happen the next day, so we called the community together and we said, “We’re gonna
meet here at 7 o’clock, we’re gonna have a prayer service, we know that things are gonna be
happening tomorrow, the world’s gonna be changing. So, when we did that, at 2 minutes to 7
there wasn’t one seat that was empty. They were in the audiences, all around in that chapel, they
were packed and they were there for that prayer service and so we let in that prayer service. We
had a tree, a Christmas tree, during that time that was like right after Christmas and our chapel
�had 9 Christmas trees scattered all over the chapel. We had 1 tree that was still there and we
called that the peace tree, and that tree was still there even after Desert Storm ended, we kept that
tree there to remind us that, you know, our nation is to be a nation of peace. So it was… yeah.
Some memorable moments during that time.
All right. And then when did you complete that assignment? (59:05)
Well I stayed until the end of 1992, you know, when my 20 years was up—well actually when I
was active duty my 3 years, I had to go and so I had to leave the service active duty because I
didn’t get promoted, that was the main reason. You have to get promoted, you know, and if you
don’t then they’ll say they’ll give you your walking papers, but then of course they’ll say “You
can’t be on the active duty anymore, but we want you to join the reserves.” and that’s what I did.
I joined the reserves. Stayed with the reserves there in the community.
Okay.
The other part of it is that after Desert Storm they had, the first thing they did is they had a
Memorial Day parade—ceremony. It’s not a parade, it’s a ceremony, procession. And so in East
Detroit they said “We’re gonna have this ceremony but we wanna ask you, can you be in the
parade? Cause we want you to be in this parade ceremony here.” and I said okay. And they said,
“You don’t understand, we want you to be the Grand Marshal because you did such a wonderful
job for us, we wanna show our appreciation to you.” And so I became the Grand Marshal of that
parade and then we went to the cemetery, they went from the downtown area over to the
cemetery and then at that point there they asked me, “Could you give a speech when we get
there?” and I said, “Why yes, I can do that, that’s pretty simple.” So as I’m speaking there was
someone in the audience, okay, the person that was in the audience that was there who heard me
was running for Commander for the American Legion. To be in the American Legion you have
to be in the military and so this person, Clifford Mann, was getting ready to be the state
commander. So, this happens, you know, they campaign during the summer and so he didn’t
really—he didn’t have a chaplain so he asked me if I would become his chaplain, okay? So, I
did, so in August I started my—August of ‘91 and I started in the [unintelligible] at the
American Legion as the State Chaplain, and then the next year a new commander comes on
board and asks me if I would be their chaplain. This happened 15 years straight. For 15 years
straight I was the State Chaplain for the American Legion, and during that time you travel a lot,
meet a lot of people and become a lot of friends later on, you know, it’s kind of like my ministry
with the veterans.
Right.
�Now, I went from military to veterans and so now I have a new chapel role in the American
Legion State Chapel. While there I did do a lot of articles once a month, I did funeral services for
people, I did weddings, you know. And… but after the 15 years was over with, the next year it
came time for them to choose the National Chaplain, and Michigan had a National Chaplain in
about 20 years older, and so now it’s kinda like Michigan is starting to have a new leader come
from Michigan. When you’re in the American Legion they choose state chaplains from a state,
every year a new state, so finally it’s kinda like coming close to Michigan’s time to have a
National Chaplain. Well, I was selected for that and during that year was an awesome years, I
had to do some wonderful things.
So what does a chaplain do, whether for the state or nationally. You travel around a lot but what
are you doing? (1:03:30)
Oh, as a state chaplain?
Yeah.
Well again, you give a lot of speeches. A lot of services. You know, one of the things the
chaplains, one of the things the American Legion does well is they honor the four chaplains and
in February, the first Sunday in February is what we call Four Chaplains Sunday, and so I did a
lot of those services talking about the Four Chaplains, we did services and they still do them
today, the American Legion, around the state. They have those services. Grand Rapids does one
here really well, we have a really good community that puts that on together every year around
the end of January, close to February, we honor those four chaplains for the ones that during
Desert Storm and World War II, we remember they gave life jackets away. And each of those
chaplains represented a certain faith; one was Catholic—there was a Catholic chaplain, there was
a Jewish chaplain, there was a Methodist chaplain and then there was a Presbyterian chaplain.
The four chaplains. And because of what they did and the heroic efforts that they tried to honor
those men, still today after all these years, when the submarine the Dorchester was torpedoed and
there were like 600 and… at the time there were 900+ men that were on that ship, of the 900
there were 638 I think is the number that were killed during that time. And so there were
survivors—
Oh, wait. There’s a really famous torpedoed ship at the end of the war, it was the Indianapolis.
Dorchester is the name of a small British anti-submarine vessel that was torpedoed off of North
Carolina.
Yeah, that is the one.
�But that would only have—that had British service men on it and it was small. So this sounds
like the Indianapolis. It was torpedoed by the Japanese at the end of the war, and…
No this was more towards the middle of the war.
Okay.
Yeah, I believe in ‘42, yeah. It wasn’t the Indianapolis but I know which one you’re talking
about.
Right, I’m guessing by the size of the ship, the number of people in the crew and so forth
because I’m not sure there was a USS Dorchester…
Yup, that’s what the name of it was.
Okay. I’ll go look it up.
Yup, it’s called the USS Dorchester and it was torpedoed by the Japanese up in the Greenland
area.
Well by the Germans, probably, then. (1:06:26)
Oh, that’s right, yes it was. Germans, yes! Not by the Japanese.
All right.
So yes, look that up because it’s a famous story about these 4 men and again, the civil honor they
give medals and everything for them.
Okay. All right, now as a national chaplain how was that different from just being the state
chaplain?
Okay. Well, again, as a national chaplain you are asked to do, you know, for national meetings
you give prayers and I was able to travel around all of the United States. I was able to go to St.
Louis, New Orleans and I did some Four Chaplain services there. The other part of it is, the
highlight of one of the chaplain duties, is offering the prayer in congress and also in the senate if
you’re able to. I was able to do both: both the congress and the senate, and that was a wonderful
experience. The other part of it is the, in the American Legion we have what we call Boys State
and what we call Boys Nation, and Boys Nation meets right after Boys State, we here just next
week, Grand Valley will be doing Boys State. But they are the Boys State will select two
�representatives out of the Boys State, the 280 some that are there, will select two to go to
Washington, D.C. to represent Michigan to be at Boys Nation. And so if you’re the national
chaplain you get to go there, have a chapel service with them and meet with them and then they
lay the wreath at Arlington and as a chaplain you go there with them. I have pictures of me doing
the laying the wreath with their National Commander during that time. So, some wonderful
things you’re able to do.
All right, now while you were doing that, I mean that chaplain assignment was not really a full
time job was it, you had other work that you were doing? (1:08:42)
Oh yeah. I had—yeah. The nice thing about being the chaplain: they will pay for your expenses,
okay, of being an actual chaplain. Of course, you know, they’ll pay for your airfare, then if you
have to they’ll give you an honorarium, and that’s about it. But really it’s a volunteer position.
And now did you go back to being a pastor or what did you do?
Well I was still, at that time I got selected to go to the VA and Ann Arbor, and so back at that
time—what was it, 2009, I was hired at the VA in Ann Arbor and just completed my 10 years
there at the VA in Ann Arbor. It’s a beautiful hospital, and so at that time, so I kind of wore the
hat as being the national chaplain and being at the VA. Once in awhile you get asked to speak in
different places and I, some of the churches that I attended I was able to preach and still be a
pastor of a little church.
I think you, while you were in the Reserves, you had churches though, right?
Yeah, little churches that I had, yup. Oh yeah. Some little churches, some big.
Okay. All right.
That’s another story.
All right. And then at what point did you come back to Grand Rapids?
Well, just recently this past… as I was contemplating my 5 hats that I wore over in Ann Arbor,
Ypsilanti area, the other hat that I wore is working with Civil Air Patrol.
Okay.
And the uniform that I’m wearing is a Civil Air Patrol, it looks like the Air Force but we’re what
we call the auxiliary of the Air Force and we do the search and rescue missions. We have… it’s a
�wonderful organization for any people that are interested in doing search and rescue work with
our cadets and it’s—so I was the, what we call the wing chaplain, that was the state chaplain for
Civil Air Patrol and I just, after 6 years I said it’s time to give that up, give it to somebody else,
and so somebody else has that now.
Okay. How did you connect with the Civil Air Patrol to begin with? (1:11:07)
Well, that’s a good question, James. It’s… right after I became national chaplain, after that was
over with. The American Legion and the state gave me all kinds of awards and nice
appreciations, I was given the honorary State Commander’s position where I’m able to do the
things that the other state chaplains do—I mean, State Commanders do. I still [indecipherable].
And so after that was over with I had a VA chaplain who I worked with who was in Civil Air
Patrol. He was my boss there then, and so he asked if I wanted to join Civil Air Patrol, so I went
to ISA. I had to go to one of the meetings, so I went to the meeting and there were like about q0
guys sitting there and as he’s introducing me to the Civil Air Patrol guys he said, “I want you to
meet Larry Vollink, he’s gonna be your new chaplain.” (Vollink laughs.) I didn’t know that! I
was quite surprised when he said that, so I became a… you had to go through some orientation to
be a Civil Air Patrol chaplain, you have to have the same credentials you have to in the military,
you have to have an m. div and it’s, you know, so they select chaplains in the Civil Air Patrol
who could still be in the military and have the, you know, credentials. So I became a chaplain
there back in 2012. About 6 months later after I became chaplain, the wing chaplain for
Michigan had a ministry in Pennsylvania and so he moved to Pennsylvania so now that position
is open, so they asked me “Larry, because you’ve been on National status and State status, would
you take this position?” and I said, “Okay.” and so then I did that and then I have other
chaplains, we have what we call squadrons around the state and in the squadrons we have either
chaplains or we have what we call character development instructors, kind of like a chaplains
assistant against the classes, and so I recruit those and I, you know I help them with mentoring
them or with whatever their needs are. So, just recently did I give that position away to someone
else who can do that position very well, and so I’m kind of like in the wings now, I hope in the
wings, waiting for other things to happen.
Now over the course of almost the past 18 years or so, this country has been involved in conflict
in the Middle East and Afghanistan and Iraq and so forth, and you’ve done a lot of work with
veterans and so forth. What kinds of support have you provided, or what kinds of things have
you been involved in to support the veterans coming back from those places?
Well, you know, first of all the VA. That’s been my ministry, you know, for… and so, you
know, that’s my first #1 focus is doing that. The other things I’ve been able to do is service as a
hospice chaplain and I’ve done hospice ministry chaplain work, and so when I do those types of
things one of the things I do because I’m a veteran, they always like where would you, you
�know, go and help minister to these men who are dying, or women. And so I’ve had ministries in
hospice and doing all that, so it’s… you find whatever the Lord wants for you to do and then you
do it.
And what did you do for the VA? (1:15:18)
Right now I’m still in the VA, but when I started out 10 years ago they hired me to help the
Catholic chaplain on some Saturdays. He would come in and he would have a really heavy load
of people to see and to take off that load they said, “Can you help him out and assist him?” and
so I did, I was able to, you know. So I’m still there on Saturdays, every Saturday is my ministry
to the VA, but then also because they have other chaplains I was able to help them during the
week, during vacation times, any time the chaplain was away and that was many times. They
asked me to come in on Tuesday or Monday or whatever during the week or, you know, like for
example the chapel services, and I would help minister to them and again, those are while being
in the VA because of my background, I am a military chaplain, you know? The other chaplains
that we have there have had no experience in the military, so, but you know, they have a passion
for them still. They do very well in ministry to the veterans even though I’m the one that can talk
the language the best.
Now the ones that you’re ministering to, are they now—do you have a lot of younger ones now
or these kind of Vietnam era people mostly, or?
No not really, most of them are my age right now, or the ones that I see. And it’s… most of, like
I said, most of them are, yeah, most of them are with the Vietnam era that I see. Interesting. But I
can identify with them very fast. I’ll give you an example: like last week on the Saturday I
walked into a female older lady… well actually she’s about my age. And we started talking and
found out that she was in the army and that she lived over in the Big Rapids area and she’s going
through some problems, some situations, you know, with her leg and so I was able to identify
with her because of, you know, when she was in, where she lived and I was able to, you know,
have a very effective ministry for her while I was there. And you know, it’s really good that
when you’re there, okay, they’ll say to you “Chaplain, you made my day. I appreciate you
coming and seeing me.” Okay? When the person says that I get a little emotional and I say
“Thanks for letting me be able to have time with you.” The other part of it is too, some share
with you too, that there are some veterans there who have had, you know, they have had the
heart problem dealing in their own heart because they killed somebody. They actually did kill
somebody and they say, “How does God forgive me for this? Can he forgive me for that?” and
so those are hard things that they deal with, you know, and as a chaplain you sit and you listen to
their story and you try to help identify with them, you know, you try to help them be able to
minister to them and help them to say hey, there is a God who does forgive you in this, okay?
You answered the call, you did what you were supposed to do, you did it and you were the one
�that, you know, God’s gonna help you through this. If he was there then, if he helped you there
then, he’s gonna help you here now, in this life. So those are the kind of, you keep that presence
with them in their life still.
And those are things that I’ve found and talked to veterans even World War II era, they often
they know, and they killed someone, especially if it’s maybe just one person it stays with them
and haunts them and follows them, and that doesn’t change much from one war to another.
(1:19:37)
I’ll give you another example with another veteran I met in a nursing home, and I was asked to
go see him in the nursing home, and that before I walk in there was his son and daughter-in-law,
they were both in there waiting for as I was coming in there and they wanted me to, you know,
help do anything I could. So I go in there and I start talking to him, he knows I’m a veteran, well
all of a sudden he’s sharing things that the son has never heard before. It’s like, wow, chaplain
we never heard these things before, we don’t know what you, you know, said or did but now he’s
sharing, you know, his life about some real situations that happened a long time ago and they
were very appreciative of that, being able to see him. So people, like I said, they’ll share their
stories, you know, wait until the very end almost to do that.
I found that. Okay, so if you look back on this extended time you had in the service, overall how
do you think that affected you and what have you taken out of it? (1:20:58)
As I look back now? Again, I wouldn’t trade it for the world. I’ve seen, like I’ve seen God
involved in many of these things that happened, that I believe that God helped me to be there for
that person at the right time and so I believe God has used me in His way, you know? That this
has been a calling, okay, this has not been a job this has been a calling for me and little did I
know that 52 years ago from this church that I’d be where I’m at here, with you, talking to you
about these stories. About how God had used me, and so every opportunity that I have to tell
others is a good thing, so I appreciate what you’re able to be here and listen to where I’m at with
all this.
Well thank you very much for taking the time to share the story with me.
Thank you. Well, thank you for having me, James, and God bless you too.
Alright.
Alright, and again we’ll continue to keep our troops in our prayers every day as we are here, our
troops are serving wherever they may be. Families are with them too and so as a chaplain we try
�to keep that up in the forefront, keep these men in our prayers, always. And women. So thank
you.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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VollinkL2314V
Creator
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Vollink, Lawrence
Date
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2019-06
Title
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Vollink, Lawrence (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Lawrence Vollink was born in the Burton Heights neighborhood of Grand Rapids, Michigan, where he attended local schools and graduated high school in 1965. His father was a deeply religious, poor man with only an eighth-grade education and his mother did not work, but Vollink believed that he lived a comfortable childhood. With the financial help of his grandfather, he attended Great Lakes Bible College and graduated in 1970, becoming a minister. As a minister, Vollink was exempt from the draft and was encouraged to go back to Bible College for his master’s degree so he could become a military chaplain. In 1980, he was admitted into the military as an Army Chaplain at the rank of Captain after attending a reduced Basic Training Course at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. He would console his men over issues such as suicide, depression, stress, and insubordination. After three years at Fort Campbell, Vollink was transferred to Germany where he was assigned to the 32nd Army Air and Missile Defense Command (AADCOM), which had its units scattered all over the country. He then attended a second Chaplain School in the United States for six months before he was promoted to Major and stationed at Fort Carson near Colorado Springs, Colorado. In 1990, Vollink was working at Selfridge when the United States invaded Kuwait and made the decision to remain in Michigan instead of deploying with his former unit from Fort Carson. After the conclusion of the invasion, he provided advice to his military commanders on how to better help and receive the troops returning home from deployment. In 1992, Vollink’s twenty years of active-duty service were up, so he joined the Army Reserves. He later became the State Chaplain, and then the National Chaplain, for the American Legion, serving the institution for a total of fifteen years. Afterwards, he joined the Civil Air Patrol as the organization’s Wing Chaplain in 2012 out of Pennsylvania. Vollink also worked smaller jobs for the VA and Hospice while working for the American Legion and Civil Air Patrol. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Vollink believed that God helped him not only to perform his job effectively, but also to be supportive of his men. Thus, he believed the military was his true calling and that he was used as a tool of God to do good in the military.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b7bd488b441f8e32b720fa1c52a63ea.mp4
ba7f79b40553f1514f903db7b47f9124
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8123d0ea9da7f708700902295500123f.pdf
d036dc4aac8352ff13a55cfcbcbef650
PDF Text
Text
Velez-Cruz, Miguel
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: Miguel Velez-Cruz
Length of Interview: (56:21)
Interviewed by: Harry Vo
Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo
Interviewer: “Hi. This is Harry Vo interviewing for the Veterans History Project. Here we
have a veteran in the recording studio with us. Please introduce us with your name, your
unit, your position in the Army, and what wars have you served in?”
My name is Miguel Angel Velez-Cruz. I served in the United States Army. When I left the Army
my rank was Specialist 5 E-5–– basically Sergeant. I was trained as a medical records clerk, at
the beginning. When I served–– the only war that I ever served was in Vietnam. I was there from
June ‘68 to June ‘69, and I had two different jobs; as a medical records clerk in a missile
battalion, but then in a service battalion I worked in grave registration–– which was considered a
service battalion in quartermasters for the first logistical command. Basically, after I left
Vietnam I finished my military career in Germany. (1:26)
Interviewer: “Please tell us about yourself. What are important things that we might like to
know?”
I was born in Puerto Rico in 1949. I was raised and developed in the 1950s and 1960s, and that
was the worst part of the Cold War mentality and Puerto Ricans, as U.S. citizens–– Puerto Rico
is a colony of the United States–– they gave us citizenship in order to be capable of drafting us to
the Army for whatever wars. My grandparents were drafted for World War I, my biological
father and his brothers were drafted for World War II, and my stepfather and his brother served
in the Korean War because it was all based on age and the different generations in my family. I
was surrounded by a family where men joined the service or didn’t object to being drafted to the
service because Puerto Rico was a very, very poor place to be in those days. It was basically a
third-world country within the jurisdiction of the United States. It was very poor, so joining the
Army and getting a check every month instead of cutting sugar cane was a way out of extreme
poverty. That was the experience in my family. (3:08). By the time I was 16/17 the war in
Vietnam was already getting hot. In 1966/1967 I was already feeling the allure of the adventure
of getting out of my hometown–– a small little town on a small island–– and I just wanted to
leave and see the world, and I look at the Army as one way of doing it. Also, while I was in high
�school–– you know, you’re starting to shape your political views and things–– I was exposed to
the anti-communist propaganda of the 1960s. They told us all the time that the Russians are
coming, the Chinese are eating babies, and communism is the worst thing in the world–– which
I’ve always agreed that it’s a horrible political system, but it created a mentality in me that
anything that the government was asking me to do in order to fight communism, it was okay
because it was like a new “crusade,” you know, we were going to save the world. You never
questioned what was happening and you never questioned if the government was telling you the
truth or not because that was very important. It was unforgivable. Your country was always right,
and that made me not [want] to wait. Instead of being drafted, I joined. I volunteered. (5:05). In
December I talked to my mother–– I was an only child, something happened–– and I wanted to
fly helicopters. That was the coolest thing in the 1960s, helicopters in combat. They were the
latest and greatest machine. I didn’t know that they were very slow, very prone to dropping from
the sky, very easy to shut down, but they didn’t show you that on the ads on TV to join the
Army. They show those beautiful things moving at high speed and dropping soldiers and
everybody wins the war. I wanted to be a helicopter pilot and I joined with the idea that I was
going to go to helicopter school in Fort Rucker, Alabama, but my mother had other ideas. For
whatever reasons my family had some political connections in Puerto Rico with the
Commissioner in Washington. We don’t have a Congressman, we have something called a
Commissioner. He doesn’t vote but he has about the same privileges that any other house
member has, and he was a friend of my family’s. They managed, through him, to keep me away
from something called combat arms. Combat arms in the Army are infantry, tanks–– anything
that is shooting–– artillery. Anything that is shooting with something. So, they kept me away
from that and being a helicopter pilot was considered dangerous and being an only child and all
those reasons, my mother managed to keep me away from the helicopter pilot school. Suddenly I
was sent to a clerk school and I asked, “Why? I had a contract. I was supposed to go to
helicopter pilot school.” They say, “No, the class has already started. You’re going to go later.”
Because in the Army you never got an answer for anything. You were told what to do and you
did it and that’s it. So, I started my military training in what they call basic training–– what all
soldiers do just in case because every soldier there has to be a rifleman, you have to know how to
use a rifle–– and that’s what they do in basic training. That was done first in Fort Jackson and
then in Fort Gordon, Georgia. Fort Jackson is in South Carolina. From there I went to Advanced
Individual Training and they sent me to this clerk school and they made me a medical records
clerk in Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri. (8:10). Places that I’ve never been in my life because I
only lived in New York City with my parents–– my stepfather and my mother–– for about three
or four years when I was a child, between five and nine years old. That was my exposure to
English, but they went back to Puerto Rico and the rest of my life I lived on the island with
everything in Spanish. After Fort Leonard Wood, I received orders to go to Vietnam and I asked,
“When am I going [to helicopter school]?” “Oh. Probably when the next class of helicopter
school starts. They’ll pluck you out of Vietnam and send you to Fort Rucker.” “Okay.” So I went
to Vietnam and the very first unit I went there [with] was a missile air defense unit. Something
�called HAWK missiles. These systems were designed to shoot down aircraft in case North
Vietnamese or Russian or Chinese aircraft would come down south–– which never ever
happened in their ten years of involvement in Vietnam. There was never an aircraft coming from
the North to the South. We sent thousands of aircraft from the South to the North. Our unit was
there for a few years, but by the time–– I was there about six-months to eight-months in this unit,
which was the first unit that I was headquartered in because it’s considered air defense artillery,
the missiles [and] the rockets. Headquarter battery [and] I think it was 6th Battalion, 71st
artillery and air defense. They decided to send that unit to Germany because there was no use for
it in Vietnam, but anybody who was six-months or less in the country was going to stay in
Vietnam. So what are [they] going to do with Mickey Velez? (10:30). I was the battalion aid
station medical records clerk and I was learning things about what they do in aid stations, but
suddenly they sent me to a place called the 38th Base Post Office because I was a clerk, I was
not a shooter. That is the place where–– it was a huge room under a wooden building where they
had 500,000 cards printed by computers, IBM computers. Before you guys–– you never heard of
these because you were not even born when they already changed–– computers were
programmed using cards. You would type code on a card, the computer would read the card,
maybe like a zip drive, and you have to imagine it’s like a piece of paper with a bunch of holes,
it would read that information. Every single soldier, airman, and sailor in the Vietnam area had a
card like that. We controlled, that way, the movement of their mail. Packages sent from home,
letters, and whatever. That unit was there for the exclusive reason of every time that somebody
was wounded, got sick, or died in combat the parent unit–– the infantry unit or whatever,
wherever–– would produce a piece of paper and that piece of paper would become another
printed card. And I would receive one of those cards–– I would receive packages everyday––
[when] there were thousands of people getting sick or wounded in Vietnam every single day.
(12:46). We were all divided by last names and I would take one, look in my files for the card of
the individual that said, “Keep on sending the mail wherever he is,” and substitute it with one
that said, “Search.” Search means we’re looking for you, but in reality that something happened
to you. Sometimes it said, “Search KIA.” That was the very first time in my life that I heard that
acronym because not even in training [did] we [hear] of that acronym. It means “Killed in
action” and those we already knew that they were dead, so we started a process of holding their
mail and all their packages, and making sure that it wasn’t any stuff–– because all of that stuff
was going home–– but [seeing] if there were any pornographic magazines that he might get,
photos that his wife was not supposed to see, we took them out. There was a unit that just
cleansed all their belongings to make sure there were no drugs, nothing going back home that
would make the family feel uncomfortable because that person instantly became a hero, and we
had to protect [their] image. So that’s what was done there. (14:18). I spent about five months in
that unit and the Captain of the unit called me and he said, “Velez-Cruz we need you for a
special mission.” I was still going to be with the 38th BPO, but I was going to go TDY, which
means temporary duty. You still belong to your unit, but they are lending you to a unit that needs
your hands. “You’re going to go TDY to this unit.” It deals with casualties and making casualty
�reports and dealing with casualties, so I thought it was going to be like a hospital but I didn’t
know anything about grave registration–– which was the service unit. They’re called service
units which also belong to the First Logistical Command that took care of all services in Vietnam
for the guys in the field. Grave registration was, in reality, commanded by a quartermaster
battalion. Quartermasters are the people who move things in the Army–– boxes of bullets, boxes
of food, boxes of clothing, and boxes of people. When people die in the service, they are not
patients anymore and they’re treated like a commodity, like a “thing.” And they’re moved
around, I think, with respect. We were always very concerned about those–– we call them men,
but they were all boys. I was 18, I wanted to be called a man not a boy, but now that I'm 71 I see
them as children because they were 18/19 mostly. They moved them around as “things.” (16:52).
We used forklifts because sometimes we had to put 10, 20, 50 in an aircraft because it was
wholesale slaughter. In Vietnam there were weeks or months where there was a lot of activity
happening, a lot of combat, or a lot of attacks or a lot of issues [of] why people would die. I
knew people who committed suicide. I knew people who were so terrified of going to the field––
draftees–– that, for some crazy reason, they would harm themselves and sometimes they would
die. Which is illogical because you’re afraid of going to the field because you’re afraid of being
hurt, but then you hurt yourself with a rifle or a grenade and you end up dead. We received all
kinds of people, even civilians, nurses, doctors, people who died in accidents. There were traffic
accidents. People who were shot down in helicopters, you know, so we had to process all kinds
of individuals that were exposed to harm. The first week that I was there, it was scary. I have
seen bodies before, in Puerto Rico. Funerals would happen in the house if somebody died–– one
of my uncles or grandpa, whatever–– the viewing, because we were Catholics, would happen in
the house where that person lived. It usually was an older person–– we usually live with [our]
son or daughter–– so it would happen in the house that they lived in. When my grandmother
died, she was viewed in her living room. So, I was used to seeing dead bodies because they took
me to–– in the Hispanic Catholic tradition they don’t keep you away from funerals–– they want
you to see [and] be exposed to that probably because it’s a part of life. I had seen bodies, but
never had I seen somebody exposed to what I call a “traumatic event.” (19:16). Like a traumatic
amputation, when something is blown up away from you–– an arm, a leg, a head–– and we had
to deal with that. When I saw the first nasty ones, I was apprehensive, you know. I’m doing my
job but after a couple of weeks your brain becomes like–– you have some kind of processing
system that allows you to get used to it. Somehow you protect yourself–– not going crazy–– of
seeing such horror, and I kept doing my job. I was not an embalmer, you know, but I did have to
help because the people who actually did work on the bodies were overwhelmed. We worked
seven days a week, they just had enough crews to give us a break. Actually, they sent me there so
people could take a break–– especially with the paperwork because we got to make sure we sent
the body to the right place. We had to identify them properly and what I did is I made sure when
we took all the clothes off, everything. Socks, shoes, everything. In the Army they teach you
your belt, your pants, your shirt, your boots, every piece of uniform–– your hats–– every piece of
uniform they give you, you write your name, rank, and serial number. We would look at these
�things because the dog tags, sometimes they were there and sometimes they were not. A lot of
guys threw them away in the field because they were afraid of the noise they make, they jingle,
and if you want to be quiet at night and you’re moving in the middle of an operation, they would
throw away their dog tags or put them in a pocket and then if something happens the dog tags are
lost. (21:18). But, the medic in the unit would tie a–– usually in a hand or in a thumb–– a tag
explaining that this is so-and-so, but I have to confirm that this is so-and-so so I start all the
paperwork that’s required to file as a casualty report. The morticians sometimes would take
fingerprints–– most of the time they did, unless it was very clear [like] they had their wallet with
them and I saw the ID card and it was very easy. We would say, “Yeah. He’s him.” and it was
clear. No facial injuries and the guy was not badly decomposed. But most of the time we got
people that didn’t look nice. Their faces were contorted or wounded or a bullet hit them in the
face and it makes a mess of it–– your bone structure gets all messed up. If it’s an explosive it’s
even worse, so we did fingerprinting and I saw things that were crazy. ( There was a helicopter
pilot that was burned, so we couldn't see anything and the skin was coming off of his hands. So
one of the guys–– the morticians–– took the skin of the fingers off and put it in his own hand so
he could take the fingerprints. Imagine that. You see that and you say, “That’s horrible,” but
when you start seeing things like that everyday, you start saying, “Well, that’s it. That’s how it
is” That was my experience in Vietnam until June ‘69. I spent like five months there, every
single day, seeing dead people and helping shift them home. (23:32). They sent me back to the
United States because I still had over a year left in the Army, and went back home for my life.
When you left Vietnam they would give you a 30-day leave. I decided to get married to my
girlfriend. We got married and when I went back to Texas–– for some reason they sent me back
to that 71st artillery unit, the air defense unit–– in Fort Bliss, probably because it was in my
record. When I arrived they told me, “You’re leaving for Germany.” So, they sent me to
Germany with my wife and I ended my military career living in Stuttgart as a paymaster paying
the troops because I was a clerk. I was not an airborne ranger or anything like that. And
immediately I left the army with the GI Bill and I joined the University of Puerto Rico [where] I
wanted to study medicine. My family was poor, I couldn’t go to med school but I managed to get
a degree in Biochemistry with two majors. I was a pretty good student, did pretty well, and right
after college I got a job in the pharmaceutical industry. First in a company that was making
devices and then with Johnson and Johnson. I worked 27 years for them. That was my major job,
working for the same company making all kinds of drugs. Prescription drugs, over-the-counter,
different divisions, and I did all kinds of jobs. Even in engineering–– I’m not an engineer but
they made me an engineer. [But] I had a very good career, a very busy career, and a joyful
career. They gave me all the toys that I wanted every time there was a new project. So, my
memory of the war during those days was basically if someone asked, “Are you a Vietnam vet?”
I would say, “Yes. Sure.” “What did you do?” “I was a clerk.” But, I never talked to anybody
about my experience in Vietnam. (26:05). There were very good memories of Vietnam because
remember, they would give us a break–– once in a while–– and I would go to Saigon–– I was in
Saigon–– [but] I would go around downtown. I remember I used to go to the same place always–
�– they had a nice zoo on the outskirts of Saigon. My favorite place to go–– because I did it as
much as I could–– there is an area at the outskirts of Saigon, like suburbia we call it today, which
is called Cho Lon, which was the Chinese neighborhood of all the Chinese refugees that came
from the nationalist groups in China. They went first to North Vietnam and then when North
Vietnam was taken by the communists, they moved to Saigon. So, Cho Lon was the Chinese
neighborhood and they had the very best restaurants. I was always looking at the girls, of course,
like any other 18/19-year-old boy would do. I was trying to keep myself for my–– and I have to
confess–– I was always trying to keep myself for my girlfriend. I was terrified of getting sick or
anything like that. I worked in a medical unit so I knew what venereal diseases were, but I
always found Vietnamese girls so delicate and so beautiful–– very thin. The–– I forgot the name
of the dresses that they use–– (27:47).
Interviewer: “Áo dài.”
Exactly. Áo dài. I found that so elegant and so beautiful because the Vietnamese–– men and
females–– they’re very thin. They’re usually very thin and elongated people, even their faces are.
I found them attractive and I found their culture interesting because I was interested in them.
[Like] “What am I doing here?” So, I needed to learn about them and I found Saigon a very
beautiful, quasi-French town. Great bars and good music. That’s when I first got introduced to
rock because I came from Puerto Rico and in 1968 it was not a big thing on the island. The
music that we heard there was different. So those were the positive memories I had of Vietnam.
Those were the ones that I talked about most. (28:56). I never mentioned to my wife or my
family–– and I had five children–– I never ever mentioned to them my experience–– the nasty
part of the war; the things that I saw and the things that I had to do. I lived my life, forgot about
it until I retired when I was 60-years-old. I had a heart attack because of other conditions. I was
exposed to a lot of junk–– like almost everybody was in Vietnam, agent orange and all that stuff.
One of the components is dioxin, which is a horrible poison. They think it affected my heart
because when I was in my 30s I started having problems with my heart. I retired when I got my
heart attack. My wife said, “No. You worked enough.” I had done pretty well in the industry and
by 62 I could have taken my pension as the fullest so why stay longer? Katherine, my wife, said,
“You should retire” and she’s younger than me so [said] “I’ll work until I can retire.” We already
had part of the kids in college–– the first three–– and everything was okay. Now I find–– with
nothing else to do–– because I didn’t want to do work, I didn’t want to consult with friends who
came to my house. I have the money I need, I wasn’t ambitious in that sense. I started trying to
do some arts and crafts. Took up painting, took up writing, making little airplanes and little
canons and things from kits. I became involved in the artsy part of my brain that I had never
developed because I was a techie. Especially with painting–– I really got hooked onto that–– and
drawing because I could never even draw a circle, so I took night classes for drawing and then
for oil painting, and I’ve been doing that for the last seven/eight years. (31:27). But, when I was
about 65 I started having these memories of the war–– nightmares. They first started as dreams
�and then as nightmares. The typical nightmare was in my room, I’m sitting–– I have a little
sitting area in our master bedroom–– and somebody comes through the door of my bedroom and
it’s five, six, seven, eight kids. Some of them have uniforms–– torn uniforms–– some of them
have hospital gowns, just how I received them in the mortuary and they start talking to me. I
cannot remember a single name, but I remember the faces. I remember the faces like it was
yesterday–– and I still remember the faces, and they’re talking to me, “Hey Mickey,” because
everybody calls me Mickey–– my friends. In the Army also everybody knew that I was Mickey
because that’s the nickname that my mother gave me. “Hey Mickey, why don’t you come with
us? Come with us.” I interpreted that as–– I knew because those were the guys that were dead,
that I processed–– I knew that they were on the other side of the fence, and I thought they were
calling me to be with them. I started getting scared saying, “Am I going to do something to
myself to go with those guys?” Because they [were] inviting me to go and play ball with them,
you know, “Let’s play ball. Let’s do something together.” It got really, really scary and I
couldn’t sleep because I was terrified of closing my eyes because if I went to sleep, they would
come. (33:30). So I was becoming depressed and horrendously tired all of the time and I couldn’t
do anything so I went to my doctor and he told me, “I think you might have PTSD.” I said, “But
how come? It's been 50 years since the war.” They said, “Well we’re discovering that your brain
keeps that stuff hidden because you’re busy, while you’re living a life and it protects you like
that. Now that you’re retired, your brain is not as busy as it used to be, those file cabinets start
opening and you start remembering things.” As a grandfather, the value I have for life and for
harm to young men is very different than I had when I was there. We were all airborne chairs,
you know, they used to call us “chairborne rangers,” but we all wanted to be looked at as men.
Rough, tough guys even though we were all boys. But, that’s not how I saw myself then. That’s
how I see them now. When I see those bodies, I see boys. I don’t see men, I see children and it
got really, really bad. So, this physician recommended that I start doing psychotherapy and a
psychiatrist. My private psychologist sent me to the VA and they diagnosed me at the VA again
[and] confirmed that I have suffered from Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome–– I think it’s called.
I’ve been in treatment for the last four or five years at the VA Hospital here in Philadelphia in
their program for PTSD. I’ve been told that is forever. You cannot cure a memory. The horrors
that I saw of dismembered bodies, beautiful people destroyed–– Vietnamese and Americans––
you cannot forget something like that. That’s why it’s called a trauma. (36:00). What I do is,
every two-to-three weeks I talk to a psychologist and I keep an eye on myself using different
techniques that they showed me on how to deal with that–– how to accept it, how to embrace it.
Embrace those memories as a part of my service. There are, you know, some things that I don’t
want to remember, but will always be there. There are some things of the service–– of the Army–
– that I loved. I loved the camaraderie. I would have–– if it wasn’t because I went to college and
I studied science–– I would have stayed in the Army because to me it was a nice career. It was a
good thing to do, it was something noble. It was like being a priest or being a teacher. Being a
soldier was something noble that was in my brain, because you did something that nobody else
wanted to do–– but somebody had to do it. But, thank God I didn’t stay because I would have
�gone again to Vietnam and who knows what would have happened. I might’ve ended up in that
stupid helicopter school and might end up being dead because you don’t know what life keeps
for you. After that I had a decent life and the only negative things about that is the memories of
those five months. (37:50).
Interviewer: “I guess the next question would be, what does war mean to you now?”
Well, like I told you, as my brain was being formed as a teenager–– during the Cold War–– this
anti-communist propaganda was pouring in high school, on TV, all of the time. So, I became a
believer. I was brought up as a believer in this anti-communism doctrine that we had in the
1960s–– 50s and 60s. I always believed that every word that every word that came from my
government was the truth. My government would never, ever lie–– especially a President or a
Congressman. These were our leaders, these were decent people that we elected to take care of
us. After the Vietnam War–- after the Fall of Saigon in ‘75–– a lot of books started coming out. I
started reading about the origins of the conflict in Southeast Asia, including the French
Indochina Wars. Street Without Joy, A Bright Shining Light, all the novels that came out. In the
history book, The Pentagon Papers, that came out–– even though it was still going on in the
latter part in the 1970s. Information started coming out that our government knew that we could
never, ever win that conflict. (39:45). The objectives that the United States government had tried
to achieve in Vietnam were unachievable, and they knew that early. Some people say by 1965,
most of the people that died–– Americans–– that died in Vietnam died in 1968, 69, and the 70s––
tens of thousands. Even though Richard Nixon knew–– and Lyndon Johnson actually decided not
to even run for President because he knew that he had made a mistake–– they kept sending
people there, and they kept blowing the place up. It’s not only the people that we lost, you can’t
imagine killing in such a short period of time over–– they think it’s between one and three
million people who died in Southeast Asia because of our intervention there–– because we
bombed the place to hell. Somebody would shoot a round and we would call in artillery and blow
up a whole mountain–– because we had that power. Not only North Vietnamese and Viet Cong
combatants were killed, but a lot of civilians died. By the end of the decade of the 1970s, I had
lost all confidence in my government. I never thought that the government would ever be truthful
again. I don’t believe that anything that comes from Washington is the truth. I lost faith. I do not
lose faith in my country, because I don’t think that Washington is my country. I am one of those
believers of “we the people” and you are “we the people.” I am one of those “we the people.” I
still believe in my country, but I don’t trust any leader of any country of any part of the world
because I think they lie. (42:06). Politicians have a tendency to believe more in themselves than
in their own people, and they can send young boys to do lots of harm in places–– not because the
United States is in danger–– but because their next political election might be in danger. They
can send young boys to get hurt, and hurt themselves [but] because we are so powerful we hurt
other people more than we get hurt ourselves–– by the thousands, by an exponential factor. So
�that’s my wound–– the loss of that innocence. The loss of that belief in the people in
Washington. I just–– I lost a lot. (43:02).
Interviewer: “Is this something that you would go back in time and tell your 19-year-old
self?”
In 2000 there was the Gulf War. My oldest son, Michael–– he is Miguel Angel also–– he was of
age and they were talking, “Oh my god, we’re going to have to put 500,000 people in the Middle
East” for the first Gulf War. I [thought] they might start drafting because we don’t have enough
people in the Army for that–– because they took every National Guard unit, they took every
Reserve unit. I thought if they start drafting I’m going to send my boy to Spain. I have relatives
and friends in Spain because my ancestry is Spanish, and I told my wife he will get on a plane,
and I don’t care how much money I have to pay lawyers, but he’s not going to any military
service for what I thought–– because now I [had] started digging into what politicians are doing
that we now have to go to the Gulf War for: to protect oil interests. I question every single
military action that the U.S. government gets involved with. I always question it now and that’s
one of the lessons of that experience. (44:30).
Interviewer: “Would you say that this part you had in the war, do you let it define you or do
you move on from that?”
It never goes away, so it does define you. Every experience that you have–– I’m talking now as a
72-year-old guy–– every experience that you have in life will define you. War or no war. Peace
or no. It doesn’t matter. Every experience you have in life will define you. That made a big
imprint because it was very traumatic, so it left a very big imprint in life. For example, I always
wanted to work in the healthcare industry. I always wanted to–– I always wanted to be a
physician. I couldn’t because you needed a lot of money to go to medical school, I come from a
poor family, so the next best thing when I got an opportunity I stayed, and always enjoyed,
working in the healthcare industry in medical devices. I was working in the development of
kidney coils for dialysis, IV sets, and stuff like that. Then, in drugs that were helping people. So,
that defined me. (45:53). When I saw so many people hurt I said, “I would like to do something
better than hurt people or make money.” Even though I’m pretty smart, I could’ve been a banker
or a salesman in a corporate system and probably made millions, I said, “I’ll make enough to
raise a family.” And I did pretty well, but I wanted to always be in a place where I could help. I
love the Army because of the sacrifice those boys make. Those men make a sacrifice for all of us
and I love them and I always hope for the best for them because they do things to protect us.
They’re there for us to be protected–– every country needs an army, unfortunately, in this
modern world. I keep an eye on what the government uses their resources [for], because
sometimes they might be used for–– it’s needed to get them involved–– but sometimes it’s just
�for political bull, and I’m very concerned on how that precious resource is used. That could be a
lesson learned from my experience. (47:22).
Interviewer: “In your journey, defining your PTSD with your own psychologist, are there
any important pieces or particular pieces that you would like to share with us?”
Sharing. I never, ever told anybody about the bad things that I saw. I should have started talking
about that when I was younger. It doesn’t mean that it would have gone away–– or maybe the
PTSD would have manifested in a different way, because I’m not an expert in that field, I don't
know–– but when I spend time with other veterans that take the same therapies that I take at the
VA hospital here, the sharing of the experience, the talking about it, saying what you want to say
about how you feel about it. There’s a group here in the VA that uses a concept called the
modern moral injury process. That moral injury process–– first–– it parts from the premise that
war is bad. Most people believe that–– even though men have been doing it for thousands of
years, tens of thousands of years, we’ve been deprecating each other, you know, killing/doing
harm to each other to take the woman, to take the land–– they say that our brain is not designed
to be exposed to that kind of stuff. We don’t like it, it’s not good for you, it’s not good for your
mental health. (49:30). It wasn’t good 2,000 years ago when you read about hermetic tales of
The Iliad, The Odyssey. You feel the same stories that modern soldiers with PTSD tell you come
from those stories in the past–– and those are thousands of years old. It looks like soldiers were
condemned to that horrible nightmare of watching or seeing or doing things to other human
beings that are not good for you. They are not good for your mental health, and you will suffer
for it. The latest data says that it’s not good. Any kind of trauma that you see of harm to be done
from one human being to another, it’s not good for your mental health. You’re not designed for
that. That is something that through the moral injury group I learned, and that I have the right to
demand from my government–– when they’re going to send young men to combat for whatever
interest; to protect our country [or] whatever interests they are–– I have the right to demand of all
the United States citizens to be involved in that process. In other words, with the war in
Afghanistan and Iraq nobody cares, nobody knows. Everybody says they remember, [but]
everybody says, “There’s a bunch of soldiers in a place, doing some things.” But they aren’t
really involved. It doesn’t touch them because we have a volunteer army now–– nobody joins,
you know. Very few people join. Less than a fraction of one percent are the families in America
that are involved–– that are paying the price for the protection of all our interests. That is not
right, in my perspective, because we’re harming all those boys by exposing them to those horrors
because when they come back. (52:05). I’m telling you–– they are not supposed to be seeing
people blowing up, babies being blown up, little children dying sometimes of their own weapons
because you don’t know, in the middle of a mess, all kinds of stuff happens. Then when you
come up, you come up with that baggage and nobody cares. Through the moral injury process I
learned that everybody should care. It is our responsibility–– it’s not that we have to do it
because we’re supposed to be nice, no–– it is our responsibility to care where we send those
�boys, what they’re doing–– because they’re doing it for us. They’re not doing it for themselves,
they’re doing it for us. [So] it’s our responsibility of what they do. When they come back it’s our
responsibility to make sure that they have all the tools to process all that mess that’s in their
brain. That’s another lesson to learn. (53:10).
Interviewer: “Do you have any concluding pieces of––”
I am Puerto Rican with a Latin background, like you know that from Latin America. I’m a
romantic at heart–– even though I’m a techie. So, once in a while when I want to say something
to myself or to my wife or to my children, I say it in writing and sometimes I say it in verse. I
wrote something, because I can never remember their names, I can only remember their faces. I
wrote something for these kids that visit me at night:
“Old nights of soft, pale armor,
Why are you so still and quiet?
Do you come to me for companionship?
Do you want me to play on your game?
Your game is past.
Stay on your side of the field.
I feel your countenance.
The way you stand reminds me of my resolute pose.
I am fearful.
Go to your house of fire.
I want to touch you,
I want to clean your wounds.
Will you forgive my fear?
Please stay on your side of the field.
Your face is familiar
But all your faces were the same.
Young, soft, pale,
Like children with no sun.
Please stay on your side,
I won’t forget you.”
Interviewer: “Thank you, Mickey. I want to thank you for participating in the Veterans
History Project. It’s really important that we capture your story and we have it just
somewhere for future reference.”
I’m sorry I got a little emotional there at the end.
Interviewer: “You’re good. No, it’s perfect.”
�Because it–– they were kids and we were all kids.
Interviewer: “It’s important Mickey. It’s important. It’s very important.”
Thank you, sir. (56:21).
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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Velez-CruzM2376V
Creator
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Velez-Cruz, Miguel A.
Date
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2021-06
Title
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Velez-Cruz, Miguel (Interview transcript and video), 2021
Description
An account of the resource
Miguel “Mickey” Angel Velez-Cruz was born in Puerto Rico in 1949. Velez-Cruz was raised and developed during the Cold War periods of the 1950s and 1960s. Coming from a long line of United States veterans and the desire to get out of extreme poverty, Velez-Cruz volunteered to join the United States Army. Velez-Cruz began his career in basic training at Fort Jackson in South Carolina and eventually went to Fort Gordon in Georgia. Eventually, Mickey attended AIT and was made a medical records clerk in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. After a few months at that position, Velez-Cruz received orders for Vietnam and landed with a missile air defense unit. Quickly, that unit was ended and Velez-Cruz was sent to the 38th Base Post Office. After spending five months with the 38th BPO, Mickey received orders for temporary duty. This is when he was assigned to work in grave registration. He stayed with this position until June of ‘69 when he left Vietnam. After his discharge, Velez-Cruz was reassigned to go to Stuttgart, Germany where he worked as a paymaster. However, since he left the service with the GI Bill Velez-Cruz decided to go back to school. He attended the University of Puerto Rico where he received his degree in Biochemistry. From there, Velez-Cruz worked in medical devices and eventually landed a 27-year gig with Johnson and Johnson. Velez-Cruz wraps up his interview by discussing his experiences with PTSD and emphasizing the importance of military awareness for the United States.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vo, Harry (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Afghan War, 2001-2021—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f1b8463bc174820ed9fef973615f9c34.mp4
b692126f27dfa8bffb8e51ee36d27d53
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d09a8d7b6a60904e8a26e6bf63e36242.pdf
ff2b27d4f5a038d249b9264fef8e2474
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Orley Van Dyke
Interview Length: (1:19:21)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We're talking today with Mr. Orley Van Dyke of Holland, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay Orley, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with
where and when were you born?
I was born on December 30, 1924 in an upstairs apartment in a house just north of the city of
Holland.
Interviewer: Okay so Holland, Michigan.
Holland, Michigan.
Interviewer: Okay and then did you grow up in Holland?
(1:01)
I grew up my entire life in Michigan. In fact, as I grew up, right after I was born, we moved into
a house on Linwood Boulevard and I grew up there until I went into the service in 1943.
Interviewer: Alright now what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
My dad was employed at The Holland Furnace and my mother was a young girl, my mother was,
when I was born was 18 and my dad was 20 and I was born in an upstairs apartment and from
the time I was born till 1926, two years later we had moved/mold to a house on Linwood
Beauregard.
Interviewer: Right, okay now did your mother stay home or did she have a job?
No, no my mother was a young girl- young woman and she was a housewife her entire life. In
fact, when my mother passed away, she- she didn't even have a social security number.
�Interviewer: Wow.
(2:06)
She never worked out of- out of the home.
Interviewer: Okay now did your father have steady work through the 1930’s?
Yeah in- in 1920, from 1924 to 1931 that's when the Depression hit our -family. He worked at
the Holland Furnace, he had steady work, and he was high, not highly, but a good paid, good
paying job, up until the plant closed on kind of the Depression.
Interviewer: Okay and so what did he do after that?
He continued working at the- to at The Holland Furnace until they closed I think in ‘53 or ‘54
and then he got a part-time job and he worked, drove school bus and worked at the
unemployment office until he was 65 and then he retired.
(3:05)
Interviewer: Okay so I guess I was trying to sort out what he did during the 1930’s, so did
he get less work in the ‘30’s with the…?
No he kept working in The Holland Furnace.
Interviewer: Okay.
He was a, what they called a molder, he set up molds for furnace parts.
Interviewer: Okay so- so he had a skilled job and he was able to keep that job.
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay alright and then where did you go to high school…
When?
Interviewer: Where did you go?
I went to high school in Holland High School.
�Interviewer: Okay.
I graduated out of the 8th grade in 1938 and 1938 I started Holland High School.
Interviewer: Okay alright and were you still in high school when Pearl Harbor happened?
Yes, I was- I was a 16-year-old senior, starting my senior year in high school and December 7 in
1941 and I was 16 years old and I would have been 17 in three weeks.
Interviewer: Okay now do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?
(4:12)
Well I- I think it happened on a Sunday and I really don't think I heard much about it until I got
to school on Monday morning and then that was all the talk about Pearl Harbor. But and then of
course I wanted to join yeah, but I was- wasn’t being 18 for another year so, but.
Interviewer: Okay now you- you could have enlisted when you were 17 but your parents
would have to allow you to do that.
Right and I know my parents wouldn’t allow, wouldn’t sign.
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I knew I’d had to wait ‘til I was 18.
Interviewer: Okay, now did the start of the war, did that change daily life in Holland at all?
Or were there things happening now…
No, I don't, I know the National Guard was called about the year before.
Interviewer: Right.
…they left, but no things were, things did not change that I know already in- in Holland.
Interviewer: Okay, did they have rationing?
Well yeah rationing started I- I think that was right after Pearl Harbor when the rationing, the
�sugar rationing and the gasoline rationing. I know you got stickers for your car, I think you were
allowed four gallons of gas a week or something like that, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah okay, okay so it's affecting things a little bit. Now where there, did some
of your classmates in high school did they go off and enlist right away or?
(5:50)
Not that I know of, no not, I don't believe any that I know of any classmates enlisted. They were
all almost too young, they were almost the same about 17 years old but.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay so they stay in, so the older guys would go?
Oh- oh yeah right for sure the draft was on then, yeah sure oh yeah right, they were…
Interviewer: Okay alright and so did you graduate from high school in ‘42 then?
I, yes I graduated in 1942. I- I took printing for four years in high school and in April of 1942 the
print teacher called me over and said they had an opening at the newspaper and so he said, “if
you got the job, took the job at the newspaper I would get credit for my printing.” And so, I
started working mornings at the newspaper and afternoons I went to high school until June and I
graduated with my class.
(6:58)
Interviewer: Okay, alright now you were still, just, were you still 16 or were you 17 now?
I was- I was 17 when I graduated, right.
Interviewer: Right.
I was 17 years old in, I graduated in June, right.
Interviewer: Okay alright and then did you just keep working for the paper then?
�I worked when I grad- after I graduated, I start working full-time at the paper and until I was 18,
December 30 of 1942 and so right that next week, I went to Grand Rapids I was gonna enlist in
the Marine Corps.
Interviewer: Okay.
But the Marines were no longer taking recruits they were getting their men from the draftees.
Interviewer: Okay.
(7:48)
That signed up for the Navy and so the following week, I went to my draft board in Grand Haven
and said, “put me in the February quota for the Army.” And February, I went to Kal- first part of
February I went to Kal- Kalamazoo, signed up, passed my physical, and as you walked out there
was an Army man and a Navy man and you told them which branch of the service you wanted.
And I stopped by the Navy man and I said, “I want the Marines,” he said, “the only way you're
gonna get in the Marines is if they choose you out of the Navy.” So, I said, “put me down for the
Navy,” and I went and sat down and I thought to myself, with your luck you'll end up on a
battleship in the middle of the ocean and I'm not a water person. I went back in and I said,
“change me to the Army.” And so, I went in the end of February I went to Grand Haven and left
for the service.
(9:02)
Interviewer: Alright now where did they send you first? When you left Grand Haven,
where do you go next?
We went to Chicago for dinner and got on another train and went to Camp Grant, Illinois that's
just outside of Rockford.
Interviewer: Now was that just for processing there?
�That was, right I got there on Saturday night and we went to put us up in the barracks and there
was nothing going on Sunday and Monday morning we started changing from civilians to Army.
And I was there, I think it was there that we did a lot of testing I took a lot of tests and a few days
later I got on a troop train and we went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma.
Interviewer: Okay.
(9:54)
And I was assigned to a flash and sound battery and I started my basic training and I was just
about finished with my basic training and a fella in the barracks came up to me and said, “I'm
gonna go to the reception center at Fort Sill and apply to the Air Force.” And if you had two
years of college or passed the test you could get into the Air Force and if you passed the test you
would be either a pilot, navigator, or bombardier and so I went with this fellow and as he took
the test and this serge, Air Force sergeant said, “why don't you take the test since you're waiting
anyway.” I said, well I said “okay,” and it was a test for about, it was a multiple-choice and I
think it was about a three-hour test and we finished taking the test and the Sergeant said, “I'll
mark your papers.” About twenty minutes later he came back and he said Van Dyke,” he said,
“you're now in the Air Force,” and he said to the other fellow, he said, “you didn't pass so you go
back to the field artillery.”
Interviewer: Okay now I want to back up a little bit and fill in a few pieces of this story.
(11:24)
Okay.
Interviewer: You talked about taking a train ride from Chicago to Oklahoma.
No took a, to- we took a train.
Interviewer: Rockford- Rockford to.
�Illinois.
Interviewer: Yeah so Illinois to Oklahoma, what do you remember about that train ride?
It was cold going through the mountains there in Missouri it was cold. We all had our great big
army overcoats on, and it was cold and finally we got to Fort Sill Oklahoma.
Interviewer: Okay and then what was basic training like?
Well before the flash and sound it was a regular basic training, do the rifle range and but a flash
and sound you sat in a foxhole on front of the lines, with a periscope, looking for the flash of the
enemy guns. And you recorded what you saw and that went back to central where they checked
it and that way with all of the flash and sound reports they knew where that flash came from and
they could…
(12:33)
Interviewer: Okay alright so Fort Sill is mainly an artillery base.
Yeah.
Interviewer: And so, this is kind of an adjunct to ar- artillery.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Okay now you said you had standard basic training and a lot of people today
don't know what that is. So how do, you what do you do in a day, typical day when you're
in basic training?
Well you get up early, well before- before I started- before I started my basic training I got a call
to go to the general, I had to go and see a general and he said to me, he said “with your IQ,” he
said, “you should be in officer's training,” but he said, “since you're only just 18 years old, we're
gonna send you to a company in the field artillery, flash and sound and after you've been in the
Army a while we are gonna call you for officers training.”
�Interviewer: Okay.
(13:30)
So, the regular basic training was marching, getting on your hands and knees crawling under a
barbed wire with a- with them shooting over you and it was- it was rough and there were long
hikes and you never knew what time of the day you're gonna get called out of the barracks, and
you had to have everything inspected, and it- it was a rough life but it was good for you.
Interviewer: Alright, now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Army?
I loved it, I love the Army, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay so even the discipline and all of that?
With the discipline and it all, well I was grown, I grew up under discipline. My father was a
disciplinarian and we had to go according to his rules and so I was used to being told what to do
and what not to do.
(14:27)
Interviewer: Okay alright so, okay so now that kind of fills in some of that, so now we're at
the point in your story where basically you've now gone into the Air Force.
Okay.
Interviewer: Okay, so what happens to you next? So, after that officer tells you- you know
that- that sergeant whatever, he tells you you're in and now what happens?
Well then, I- I went back to my company and they said, “well you're finished here, you're in the
Air Force.” He said, “so what we're gonna do we're gonna let you paint the mess hall at night.”
So, about six o'clock in the evening after the mess hall was closed, I went in with a couple other
guys and we painted ‘till about three or four in the morning and we did that for, I would say
maybe a month.
�Interviewer: Wow.
And then the orders came that we had to report to the Air Force recruiting office and they took,
with a bus they took us to Sheppard Field, Texas and there I joined a whole company of Air
Force recruits that were gonna go to college and so I laid around in Sheppard Field, Texas for
about three months waiting to get called to some college and I think it was about the 1st of
September of 1943 that we were sent to Kansas State College in Manhattan, Kansas.
(16:01)
Interviewer: Alright so how did you spend your time at Sheppard Field? What- what did
you do?
Nothing just marching, and we laid around most the time, we, waitin’ to go to college.
Interviewer: Okay alright now why did they think you had to go to college?
I don't know, that was part of the test that I took because we knew we were either gonna be a
pilot, navigator, or bombardier and when you graduated from the- that school you were a second
lieutenant. So, they figured we had to have three- three months of college training before we
went to our…
Interviewer: Do you get that before you got the- the flight training?
Yeah right and then after from September ‘till just before Christmas I went to school at Kansas
State College.
(17:04)
Interviewer: Alright.
And then we shipped out to Santa Ana, California.
Interviewer: Okay.
For classification.
�Interviewer: Okay so when you were at Kansas State did you have to take a lot of classes?
Did you spend all of your time studying?
Well yeah most the time, yeah, we took, we had a lot of classes I know- I know we- we tooktook quite a few different classes but we also had got ten hours of flight training and Piper Cubs.
Interviewer: Okay.
And that's when I found out that I had bad depth perception because after about three hours of
flight training the pilot, the instructor told me that I was gonna land the plane that day. And so
we came in for a landing and as I thought we were ready to touch ground I pulled back on the
throttle and pulled back on the stick and the pilot, the instructor grabbed the stick and pushed the
throttle forward and he said, “are you trying to kill us?” He said, “we’re 50 feet off the ground
yet.” So, then I knew I had bad depth perception.
(18:17)
Interviewer: Alright so you went in thinking you were gonna be a pilot or they- they start
you off to train all of you to be pilots?
No you- you didn’t know until after college whether you are gonna be pilot, navigator, or
bombardier.
Interviewer: Okay alright but you were actually getting pilot instruction?
Right we had ten hours of flight training while we were in- in school.
Interviewer: Okay.
Right.
Interviewer: Alright so now they know you're- you’re gonna be a navigator or a
bombardier.
Bombardier, right.
�Interviewer: Yeah, okay.
But I- I- I went through all of the course, the test not because they didn't know that, I knew it.
Interviewer: Right.
And I know when I, one of the tests was they had a big long board with two sticks that you had
to line up and I said to them, I said, “okay,” and the guy said, “you can do better than that.” So, II said, “that's the best I can do until,” I- I knew what, I knew I didn’t pass that one, but I passed
for bombardier or navigator.
(19:25)
Interviewer: Right, okay alright so you get through with your three months at Kansas State
and now what happens?
After I was classified as bombardier, I took pre-flight with all bombardier students and I was in
California from Santa Ana, California from just before Christmas until about May of 1944 with
pre-flight.
Interviewer: Okay.
And then I got sent to Kirtland Field in Albuquerque, New Mexico to bombardier school.
Interviewer: Okay so what do they do in pre-flight?
It was another basic training typically but it was a little bit different in Air Force you- you didn't
have to march as much or crawl in the mud or it was mostly studying and taking guns apart and
going through the rifle range and- and things like that.
Interviewer: Okay now did you learn anything about aeronautics or flying or weather or
other things?
I didn't learn that until I got in bombardier school.
(20:38)
�Interviewer: Okay alright so this is just sort of another more basic level of training.
More of a basic, it was another basic training, right. I- I remember every Sunday the whole camp
had to march and that year out of the three or four months I was there, I remember it rained
seven Sundays that we didn't have anything, we didn't have to march on Sunday. It was- it was
raining, and I know I had to go, one day I had to go to the dentist, and I had to walk in water upabout up to my ankles it had rained so much. It was terrible wet that- that winter in Florida- in
California.
(21:25)
Interviewer: California, okay now did you ever get to go off the base at Santa Ana?
Oh yeah, every, yeah usually we had the weekend off and we would take the electric train to Los
Angeles.
Interviewer: And what could you do there?
Usually just going to the movies or to the burlesque show or to the bar or, but typical weekend
soldiers.
Interviewer: Okay now did they have facilities for you in Los Angeles, I mean you hear
about things like the Hollywood Canteen and all that kind of thing?
No, they didn’t, I don't know anything about that. We- we’d get a motel room with about six or
seven other guys and we just got a motel room for that one night that Saturday night and I know,
towards the end there when it got about one/ two o'clock in the morning there would be guys that
were stationed there, they would say, “you want a ride back to the base?” So, we'd pay them, and
they would take us back to Santa Ana to the- to our base.
(22:41)
Interviewer: Alright so you could be there for the marches…
�We had, you had to be there Sunday morning or Sunday afternoon for the march, yeah right.
Interviewer: Alright so now finally we're getting into the middle of 1944 now and you're
finished with the pre-flight and now you go to Kirtland- Kirtland Field.
Kirtland Field.
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
And…
Interviewer: Now that's bombardier school.
Went to bombardier school from I would say, I think it was 16 or 18 weeks and then if you
passed, you graduated from bombardier school and you were commissioned a lieutenant or a
flight officer.
Interviewer: Okay.
And that was I think in Oct- September or October when that time ended, and I was passed, and I
was commissioned a flight officer. And I was given a seven-day furlough which was the first
time I could get to go home after 20 months in the Army.
(23:48)
Interviewer: Okay now talk about bombardier school, what did you learn there?
Well then we did, we went to school or every so often we would fly and- and we would have
two- two cadets to a plane and they take us way out where they had targets, round circle targets
and you’d drop hundred pound bombs and one student would be doing the bombing and the
other student would be in the back of the airplane with a camera and when the bomb would hit a
puff of smoke would come up and you had to take a picture of it and that way you had to, in
order to pass you had to have all of your bombs within a hundred and fifty feet of the bullseye.
(24:42)
�Interviewer: Okay now were you using a bomb sight?
Oh definitely right, oh yeah and then we also- we also went on trainers. They- they were like big
step ladders and then you sit with a bomb sight and then you would- you would line up on a
target and then that like a bobbin would go down and so we- we did that. And then we had
weather classes and we also had navigation classes, it was a, almost a combination of navigating
and bombing and the- the last, well no that was in combat crew training that we had a thousand
mile.
Interviewer: Okay.
Right…
Interviewer: Alright…
But…
Interviewer: Okay so- so now you're actually learning more about what you will do…
What were gonna do, right.
Interviewer: As bombardier and how that works, okay so you finish at Kirtland field where
do you go next?
Then I…
Interviewer: You had your leave.
(25:46)
I had my leave and I had to go to Lincoln, Nebraska. And at Lincoln, Nebraska all the
bombardier students, the navigating students, the pilots students, the gunnery students, the radar
operators all came to Lincoln, Nebraska and there they made you into crews. That's where you
got your crew and I was there ‘till I think I was only in Lincoln about a month and then we went
to Alamogordo, New Mexico to combat crew training.
�Interviewer: Okay.
And that's where we started flying old beat up B-29s for combat crews.
Interviewer: Okay alright and that's- that's where you flew a thousand miles or?
No and then the last, our last before we shipped out of Alamogordo we had to take a 3,000 mile
flight west, we had to fly over Los Angeles and out into the ocean and then back because they
knew that when we got overseas we would be stationed on one of the islands and that was a
3,000 mile round-trip from our base to Japan and back, so.
(27:07)
Interviewer: Okay alright now so basically do you have, are you now with the crew that
you're gonna be serving with?
I’m with the crew in Alamogordo, right.
Interviewer: Okay so talk a little bit, what do you remember about those guys?
Well we got to know each other, we got, this is what, these guys on the crew you fly with them,
you live with them, you get to be brothers. I mean you get, you know they tell you about their
family and you tell them about yours, you get to be very close to them. I know even after the war
as a crew, we all got to fly back home and I kept up with our crew all, every year I kept up with
them with Christmas cards, I’d telling them what we had done and that, no, we- we were veryvery close as a crew, got to know the guys real well.
Interviewer: Okay so who was your pilot?
(28:06)
The pilot, our pilot was Les Gilbert he was a- an original Floridian. He was born and raised in
Florida and he was the first person I ever knew that was not from the Midwest. And I remember
when we were in Alamogordo his mother used to send him bushels of gra- of fruit; oranges and
�grapefruit and all kinds of Florida fruit. And- and I remember Les when he’d get a basket from
his mother he would bite into the orange and he would just squeeze the juice out and he’d throw
the rest of the orange away and this to me was- was un- unknown to do that.
Interviewer: Alright.
Yeah right.
Interviewer: Okay now who was the oldest guy in the crew?
Our oldest guy was a, the radar operator he was 26 and we called him “Pop” and he was from
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and I got to be very, very close to him even after the war we took a,
we would go to Philadelphia and we would take trips. We went to Canada with him a couple
times and we were very, very close to him. He was 20- 26 years old and he was the oldest on the
crew.
(29:32)
Interviewer: Alright and usually in the Military, there’s supposed to be some distance
between the officers and the enlisted men. With a flight crew do you have that or are you
all…
Well the only- the only way with the flight crew that we were different is we were, there were
five officers and six enlisted men on the crew. Well we lived in different bar- different Quonset
huts than the enlisted man but when we got to the line, you were all the same. There was- there
was no different- no difference. Well I- I guess I shouldn't even say this but when we got
overseas, we got to know some of the Navy pilots. There was on Guam there was a- a place
where the Navy, there was a big Navy and they had a big, big Quonset hut where you could get
beer or drinks and then when, if we didn’t have anything to do some of us officers would go and
we got to know some of these Navy pilots. And they would take us to their ships and we would
�eat with those guys and then they would invite us back and so if we- we would say to a couple of
the, of our enlisted men that we’d put lieutenants bar on them and they'd go with us and they
was, they believed they were officers too and then we’d eat with them guys because those the
Navy officers had it really, had it made on the- on the ships because they ate separate and we all
ate together and yeah we was…
(31:22)
Interviewer: Yeah so you were still getting Army food you're- you’re not a, the Air Force
isn't a separate branch yet, so the Navy has better food.
Well the- the off- Navy officers did.
Interviewer: Yeah.
I know- I know those little aircraft carriers or ships they were on the- the Navy men officers
would all sit in a room with a big round table, they’d all sit around that table and eat, where we
went and we ate, we all ate together we all sat wherever we wanted to but…
Interviewer: Right, right now when you were on the Navy ships, did they have black
stewards serving you?
Yes, they did.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Yeah they did and they had signs, a lot of signs up, ‘officers country,’ and then they would say,
the Navy guys would say, “stay tonight for the movie,” and then they would get chairs out forfor us and we'd sit on- on chairs and watch the mo- the movie where when we, at our base we sat
on logs, we didn't have for our movie theaters.
(32:25)
�Interviewer: Alright so when do you actually go overseas?
When I went overseas?
Interviewer: When did you go, yeah?
We left Alamogordo in April and we went to Kearney, Nebraska and picked up a brand-new
airplane and I called my girlfriend and I said, “we're- we're going to,” or I called her before we
went to Kearney and I said, “we're going to Kearney, Nebraska and then we're gonna go
overseas.” Well she said, “I'm gonna come and see you before you leave.” I said, “I might be
gone,” but she said, “I'm coming anyway.” So, she came to Kearney and we were there about a
week I guess, calibrating instruments on our new airplane, flying, and getting ready to go
overseas. Well she came and the night, I knew we were gonna leave the next day and I, we were
restricted to the base and we decided to get married. So, we got married on the- in an- the
afternoon we went, our crew went and had dinner at the PX, and she stayed ‘til about eight
o'clock and she went to her hotel. I went to the barracks, the next morning we left, I went west
she went east, and I didn't see her again until I came home at the end, after the end of the war.
And then we flew to Sacramento, California and then I had to have all my papers changed for
dependents and- and one, we were in Sacramento about oh maybe a week and then we got orders
that we were leaving, flying to Hawaii and we couldn’t look at our orders until we were over the
ocean and then they, we were- flew about an hour and we opened up the orders and we were
going to Guam and so we flew to Hawaii, we were there about a week, then we flew to
Kwajalein, overnight at Kwajalein and from Kwajalein to Guam.
(34:54)
Interviewer: Okay so in- in Hawaii did- did you get to be a tourist? Did you go to the beach
or?
�Yeah, yes, we, there we went I know that we took the bus from the base to downtown Hawaii,
Honolulu and it looked like Monday morning. It was completely white with soldiers with NavyNavy men all in their white uniforms and we, so we only were in Hawaii in Honolulu a little
while and then we went to the beach and it was beautiful there, at night we'd sit by the officer's
club and sit out in the open and a nice warm weather and it was beautiful and we took, when we
took off from Hawaii to Kwajalein we flew the Dole- Dole Pineapple Company had a big water
tower shaped like a pineapple and we flew right over that water tower to, on our way to
Kwajalein.
Interviewer: Okay, so you go to Kwajalein, and eventually you get to Guam.
Then I went to Guam.
Interviewer: Okay and then what kind of facilities did you have at Guam, what was there?
Well at Guam, they- they- they only had… we were the first, one of the first replacement crews
to the 330th Bomb Group in fact they were still working on a runway when we landed. And they
took us to our Quonset hut. There were two- two crew officers from two crews in one Quonset.
Well they took us, our crew, our five officers they took us to a Quonset hut as a replacement
crew that had got shot down a couple days before. So, when we came into the Quonset hut with
another crew we were not too much welcome because they had just lost all their friends that had
been in that Quonset hut before us, but it didn't take long we were, we got to be friends with that
crew too, so.
(37:06)
Interviewer: Okay, now…
And then now we got, well we got married on 18th of April, we flew to Mather Field, Hawaii
Kwajalein and we flew our first combat mission on May 4.
�Interviewer: Okay.
And well before we flew on combat missions, we flew a couple training missions on, we bombed
a little island off the coast of Guam, Rota, and that's where there- there were still Japanese on
that Island that they had by- been bypassed by the Japanese Navy. They were just living off the
land.
Interviewer: Right.
So, they- they knew when we were leaving on a mission because we flew over that little island
so…
Interviewer: Okay.
But then we- we- we practiced bombing a couple times that- that runway that was there and- and
then May 4 we flew our first mission.
Interviewer: Okay now what do you remember about that first mission?
(38:06)
Well the first mission, our, from Guam to Japan was a 1500 miles and so it took six hours, we
flew for six hours. Well you can't fly in formation for six hours, so you flew individually, and the
navigator was told, given a- a- a point on the, off the coast of Japan for our group to meet. Well
the lead plane would take off first and we would all ind- individually fly to that point. Well when
we got there the lead crew would have the nosewheel of their plane dropped and he would be
circling and we would all circle and get in formation and we usually form, our formation was a
lead plane, a- a plane on each wing, and then one in the slot, back of the lead plane that we had
four planes and then we would take off for our target.
(39:16)
Interviewer: Alright.
�And I remember that that first mission we- was a- was an airfield on Kyushu. And I can
remember we were all- all tense and finally that lead plane I saw the bomb bay doors go open, so
we opened our bomb bay doors, I don't even think I looked at the bomb site that mission because
I just dropped the bombs on- on the lead plane when he- and I was looking watching all them
Japanese running around and there were all airplanes lined up and they didn't have any- any
hardly any fuel so they weren't doing much flying. And there wasn’t, I don't think there was very
little flak that first mission and we dropped our bombs and went back out over the- got over the
coast and then we broke up then we all flew individually back, but they told us, “don't waste time
getting in formation because you don't have that much gas. And if you to- use too much gas you
won't have enough to make it back to Guam,” and luckily shortly after we started bombing Japan
then the Marines had taken Iwo Jima? , so if you knew you were gonna run out of gas you could
stop in Iwo Jima and get gas, and load up with gas. But we had a good airplane that got, we- we
got good gas mileage and so we never had to stop for gas in- in Iwo Jima, we could make it back.
(40:57)
Interviewer: Alright and you said that when you were on this mission you could- you could
see the Japanese on the ground.
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: How- how high were you, what was your altitude?
I think it might have been around, between 12,000 feet and 9,000.
Interviewer: Okay.
I- I know the- the book I got the book on the 330th that tells about every mission and about the
altitude and usually, see that's why when Curtis LeMay took over the 20th Air Force they were
flying B-29s out of China and they were flying at thirty-some thousand feet.
�Interviewer: Right.
And they weren't hitting anything, they didn't know about the- the air, what do they call that?
Air, that wind…
Interviewer: Right you can have the effects of the wind and all that.
The wind, well they were- they were made well when Curtis LeMay took over, he said, “you
guys are gonna go in at, between 12,000 and 9,000 feet.” He said, “so you can start hittin’
something.” Well they told him, “hey you're gonna lose everybody.” We said, “that's what we're
gonna do.” So that's what- what we were flying at, so I'd say we were maybe at 10- 10,000 feet
something like that.
Interviewer: Okay.
But I could see all those Japanese soldiers running around and…
Interviewer: Right okay now that you know they're- they’re concern because the enemy
anti-aircraft fire can hit you at that level, enemy fighter planes could get you at that level,
but that first mission was- was pretty quiet sounded…
Oh very quiet well then shortly after that we started doing night missions and most of our
missions were night missions and you flew up individually, you flew to your- to your initial
point, and usually our initial point was Mount Fujiyama because Mount Fujiyama you could see
miles and miles away already, you- you flew up to Mount Fujiyama and then the bombardier
would tell the pilot what course to head for but you really didn't have to tell the pilot because all
you did- had to do was look out and you could see a big fire, well you knew that was where you
had to go. So, the pilot headed for that fire.
(43:18)
Interviewer: Alright.
�And- and then with the night missions we dropped our bombs the- the radar operator and the
bombardier would work together and- and he would give me points to put on the bomb site and
then we would drop our bombs according to the radar operator. And that was most of our
missions were- were night missions.
Interviewer: Okay now and were you dropping incendiary bombs?
Oh yeah they- we drop little, well they were all made up into one bomb but they were little
bombs they were only about- oh about 18 inches long and not very big aro- they were five pound
magnesium bombs and the only way you could put those out is with sand. Water- water didn't
put them out and the Japanese- the Japanese built their- all their hoses around the factory. Well
you just with- with one- one big bomb like one B-29 could almost take out the whole city of
Grand Rapids because them little five pound bombs they were- were made into 500-pound
bombs, and then they would go, you’d drop them and then them straps would go up and then
bombs would just scatter all over and everything would burn up that it was… and then everyevery so often maybe- maybe one out of twenty planes would have high explosive bombs and
then they would drop, and they would scatter that fire all over. It- it was bad, it was bad yeah it…
(45:00)
Interviewer: When you were doing the flying were you thinking at all about the effect it
was having on the people on the ground?
No.
Interviewer: Or were you just doing your job?
Well one- one day after we had dropped quite a few, flown quite a few missions the radar
operator and I went to the chaplain and we- we had told him we- we said, “this is- this is not- this
�is not right that we kill all those people. Well, the chaplain said, “well that’s- that's war.” And itit- it wasn't- it wasn’t that we were trying to destroy factories, it was the city.
Interviewer: Yeah.
You were- you were bombing the city, so it…
Interviewer: So on some level you were aware of that.
Well yeah, yeah right. We- we went and talked to the chaplain about it, yeah. Him and- him and
the radio operator and I we- we went and talked to the chaplain.
(46:09)
Interviewer: Okay so how many missions did you fly?
We flew- we flew 24 missions but a couple of those missions were a show of force because afterafter we had the war, after we had dropped the atomic bomb then we would fly real low over
Japan and I know some of those, couple of those missions of we fly or we were very low and you
can see the people were all looking up. They- they- they couldn't comprehend that all those
airplanes that and then we sent- we sent before we would drop bombs on a city a couple days
before we would have a fly, planes fly over and drop leaflets and tell the people we're gonna
bomb your city, if you want to be safe get out of town. Because, and- and so we did give- we did
give warning to those towards the end there that we- we gave warning because people don't
realize it would have been mass murder if we would had- had to invade Japan because the kids
were all prepared.
(47:34)
Interviewer: Yeah.
And it was, people don't realize what it would have been like I know about a month before the
war ended there were trucks and Jeeps and tanks, Guam was so full of equipment all ready for
�the invasion and I found out about, oh about a month before the war ended they built a new
airfield. We were at Northfield, they built a new airfield they called North East Field and that
was for bombardier for B-29s but they flew their missions without Gunners and now I find out
after I talked to some other guys that were on that field those planes were gonna, that field was
made for B-29s to drop supplies during the invasion, that's what that field was for because those
crews just flew without Gunners or without guns just drop bombs and but they were gonna load
the bomb bays up with tanks and trucks and drop supplies on the… in the invasion.
Interviewer: Okay let's go back to your own missions did you have problems with antiaircraft fire? Was that a regular thing?
(49:09)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah anti- aircraft… we always hit- hit- hit a lot of anti- aircraft during missions,
but at night the sky would be full of searchlights searching and if you got caught in one of those
searchlights which we did a couple times then they were all synchronized on the ground and they
would all get on you and then they, the- the anti-aircraft well we had what we called little rolls of
aluminum foil that we called rope and the radio operator would go in the back to the back of the
plane by the camera hatch and he would throw that rope out and then the searchlights would go
on to that rope and then they would follow that rope down and then they would come off of us
and we had that- we had that happen a couple of times that we'd get caught in the searchlights
especially over Tokyo and- and Yokohama and they it would be so light in that air plane it would
be just like sitting here, you could read a book and then the- the pilot would kind of put the nose
of the plane down and I know one night I looked at the speedometer we were going 312 miles an
hour and- and Joe the cameraman was throwing rope out and the searchlights all went off on us
and so we got in the clear again.
�(50:41)
Interviewer: Okay now you mentioned that Joe could get a little bit overexcited or you
talked about one incident throwing out the rope where…
Yeah.
Interviewer: Where it didn't work the, quite the way it was supposed to.
No he, Joe was kind of a nervous and the camera- the radio operator over Japan didn't have
anything to do, he… so that was Joe, Joe is kind of a nervous guy anyway and so he went with
the box of rope to the back of the plane and took the cover off the camera hatch and- and we got,
we're flying along and it was over Tokyo and we got caught in the searchlights and I said, “Joe
throw out the rope,” and he threw out the whole box and when we landed back on Guam that
morning the whole back of the air plane looked like a Christmas tree, a lot of that rope had flown
back, blow back in to the blade… but…
Interviewer: Aright.
But at least he got rid of the searchlights.
(51:44)
Interviewer: Okay now you also had an on air, an in air collision at one point, right?
Well yeah and that was one of the, that was just before the end of the war and this was an all-out
mission on a- on a- on a factory just outside of Tok- out of Tokyo and there were a lot of- of us
flying four- formation planes in a row gonna drop our bombs and that lead plane decided to slow
up, well with a huge airplane by the time that slowing up got to us guys in the back, well the
planes were going different direc- well finally this one plane that was in our formation got right
over us and it was so I could read the- I could read the bomb, the numbers on the bombs and the
plane- the tail of our plan we had lost an engine we were flying on three engines and the tail of
�our plane went into the bomb bay of this plane above us and ripped off a big piece of our, the tail
of our plane. And I said, “oh Lord don't let him drop to the bombs,” because he would have
taken me along with it.
Interviewer: Yup.
And finally- finally our pilot got the noise down and we got out of formation. And years later a
fellow sent me a picture that somebody had taken of our plane who you are all- all by ourselves
and you can see a, the plane where the tail had been taken off and one of the engines was out, we
had lost two eng- actually lost two engines that day but we got one started again and we were
flying on three engines and so then we flew back on three engines back to Iwo and that's the- the
only time we had to stop at Iwo.
(53:55)
Interviewer: Okay so you did stop there once.
Then we landed, a lot of planes after that mission, a lot of planes were landing on Iwo and wewe landed our plane on Iwo and they were ready to bulldoze our airplane back in, off the runway
into the ocean and we said “no, no, no, no we don't want to lose our airplane.” So, they kept it
and they- they repaired the tail in Iwo and most of us flew back on different airplanes but some
of the, they flew some of our ground crew from Guam to Iwo and they repaired our plane and
then they flew it back.
(54:35)
Interviewer: Okay so the airstrip at Iwo that was long enough to take a B-29 off from?
It was long enough, but there were so many that wanted to land.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�And- and they- they had to get that runway clear so instead of trying to push- just push our plane
off and let another plane land we said, “no, no,” well they would have pushed it into the ocean
and then because so…
Interviewer: So- so you had some place where you could park the plane?
Yeah, they- they, there was a place then that they could- they could get it off the runway and
could park it, yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright.
I know we stayed overnight- I know we stayed overnight on Iwo and but there were still Japs on
Iwo it was kind of a scary night, you never knew if the Japs were coming out, so.
Interviewer: Yeah, I guess there- there was one point when a bunch of them came out from
under some place…
Oh yeah.
(55:30)
Interviewer: To then attack the airstrip.
Oh, they had all caves and yeah, yeah…
Interviewer: Okay alright and then let's see did you have incidents where you- you took
damage from anti-aircraft fire? Did your plane ever get hit?
Oh we got hit, we got hit by flak a lot and this one mission I think it was Yokohama, we had- we
had dropped our bombs and we were flying, maybe no I don't think we had dropped our bombs
yet, we were coming up to Yokohama and all of a sudden it just, sky just turned black you- you
could have walked on it, and I thought, oh no we got to fly through that and well we got through
it and I could see, sitting right in the front of it I could see pieces of plane- of pieces of the plane
flying off it and we got through, dropped our bombs and we got over the ocean again and the
�radio operator was very quiet he sits all by himself in the back and it's dark you don't- you don't
see nothing. He said, “well I got a- I got a window now,” he said and he had a hole was about
four inches above his head that there was a hole in the airplane and that flak had gone right over
his head if it would have been just a little bit lower it would have taken his head right off but so
he got a, he had a hole in his head, a hole in the plane but we could hear the flak hitting different
planes, parts on the airplane, it wasn't, we were far enough away from it that it didn’t have
enough force to go through the plane but that- that piece of flak was close to the plane that it had,
could go right through- right through the plane.
(57:29)
Interviewer: Okay no did you ever see any Japanese aircraft?
Oh yeah, one day we were this was a flight, we were flying the day mission and like I said we
had a circle the lead plane well we were gonna be on the right wing there's gonna be the lead
plane we were gonna be on right wing and ano- another plane on the left wing, and one in the
slot. Well this was a, kind of a new crew they hadn't flown too many missions yet, well any- they
got on the, our place on the wing and so our pilot said, “well I'll just take the slot,” so we got in
the slot and we were flying along and of course I'm sittin’ in the nose and all of a sudden the
shadow, I could see a shadow fly across right in front of me and I- I- I didn't know what that was,
well I looked out and that plane where we were supposed to be dropped out of formation and he
started going down and then I saw six men jump out of the back of the plane and the plane kept
going down, circle down and I- I watched it crash and I know those five guys in the- in the front
of the plane none of those five guys got out but the six guys in the back they all got out and theyI saw all them six parachutes and I saw that fighter plane go around circle and shoot them as- as
they were floating down that fighter machine-gun them six guys and they- they evidently he
�killed them all because they- they were they're still all listed as missing in action but they all got
killed and they were, they- that plane was flying in our place.
Interviewer: Right.
So, I had somebody else protecting us, there were somebody watching over us.
(59:42)
Interviewer: Right yeah now did you, you had- you had guns and Gunners on your plane,
right?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, we had, of course with a B-29 the- the gunners were not near the guns. The
guns were on the top and bottom turret and then in the back there were two- two turrets and the
Gunner sat in the- towards the back of the plane. The one Gunner on this side and one Gunner on
that side and in the middle, they called him the central controller- central control fighter bombgunner. He sat on what they called the ‘barber chair,’ and he sat on a chair up and he could look
through the top of the plane, so he could look 360 because the chair swiveled, he had a 360 and
then of course they the tail gunners, so we had one, two, three, four Gunners and they had a gun
sight by ‘em and that gun sight had a, you looked into that gun sight and there was a circle of
lights, the farther away the plane- the fighter was you put that circle around that fighter and the
closer he got that circle- you made that circle bigger and then it was all on a computer then and
the bombardier, I was in charge of the guns because well some, you know I could shoot in the
front but also this, the- the on the barber chair he could shoot or the if they're plane- fighters
were coming this way the- the left gunner would shoot or, so…
(1:01:38)
Interviewer: Okay and you had in the turrets where some of these sort of, basically remote
control? I mean the turret is up here, but the people are controlling it…
�Yeah so, they’re sittin’, yeah, they’re sittin’ different, yeah right they see there were four- fourfour guns here and four guns here and four here and four here, so there’d be sixteen guns plus the
tail Gunner shooter, could shoot.
Interviewer: Alright.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Do you know if your plane ever shot anything down?
Our tail Gunner claims that he shot a fighter down but he had, you had to have proof you know
he said, “I know I,” he said, “I know I shot that plane down,” but- but there was no proof.
Interviewer: Right.
None of our Gunner, other Gunners because he was in the back but- but we had never no, no,
we- we- we never had credit for shooting a plane down, no, no.
Interviewer: Alright and were fighters only a problem during the day?
Yeah right- right yes and they, the Japanese see we took out all their oil refineries that’s- that
was what they started doing.
(1:02:52)
Interviewer: Right.
Well Japanese didn't have much fuel they, you know about the only cities they could take care of
would be like Tokyo or Yokohama or Osaka or Kobe, they could take, but those and then we
bombed after the oil refineries then we start bombing the airfields and the- the Navy pilots that
we talked to they said, “now you guys flying over Japan, you let us know where these airfields
are or where the ships are that we can go and bomb them.” So, we’d have to if we met themthem pilots from the- them little aircraft carriers we'd say, “well there's an airfield over here or
there's an airfield over here, or there's a ship, there’s ships over here,” and so…
�Interviewer: Alright.
We worked together.
(1:03:54)
Interviewer: Okay now do you remember hearing about the atomic bomb being dropped?
We were coming back from a mission in August and on the radio, they had said there, they had,
we had dropped a bomb and wiped out a city and trees were blown over made- made such a wind
and we couldn't comprehend. We didn't, and then- then by the time we landed, well then it was
all over the- all over the news you know that we had a bomb that- that they had dropped and well
we didn't know anything about it, we- we didn't know a thing about it, well then they- they- they
told us that the Hiroshima had been wiped out. And- and then a couple days later they- they
dropped another bomb on Nagasaki and we knew nothing about it but that- that plane I think that
the planes that dropped the atomic bomb I think where on Tinian and they were, they had to
make a special shoot to drive the air plane over it and that bomb was underneath and you had to
lift it up into…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Modify the belly of the plane, and yeah so but no we didn’t know anything about that.
(1:05:16)
Interviewer: And then shortly after that then the Japanese surrender.
Yeah right, but then there was a crew, one of the- the crews that from our group 330th Bomb
Group, they had got shotten down and after the war, the war was over but we were still on Guam
and well this crew came back and we got to talk to those guys and they had been taken captive,
they had chute- parachuted out of the plane and a little island off in Japan they were right near
that and then Japanese came and got them and they- they were- they were captive and they were
�put in prison and they were taken by the Japanese to Hiroshima and this one, one guy told me he
said, “they blindfolded us and they lead their swords on our necks and then they made us look at
what, and we figured they were gonna chop our head off but they- they didn't, they- they let us,
let us go.” And- and then I know after the war…
Interviewer: That was your microphone falling out alright should stay there for a while
okay.
(1:06:47)
I know after the war then we- we didn't, as a bombardier I didn't have to go they just took a
skeleton crew and then they loaded the Bombay’s up with supplies and then they would take
them to these prisoner of war camps and then I know this one- one guy that had come back he
said, “when they dropped their supplies,” he said, “we start beating them Japanese up,” he said,
“cause they ran after them supplies too,” and he said “we start beating ‘em up to get out of there,
that's, them are for us,” and- and he said, “some of them Japanese they just walked away from
the prisoner of war camp. They- they just let us be they didn't want anything to do with us
anymore.” So, but then when we they signed the peace treaty, then we flew over the battleship
Missouri and then we follow- we watched the Marines land on Japan and they went took over,
went, got stationed in Japan and we were given orders do not land on Japan. Do not land in
Japan. And there was another city that we might not bomb and that was Kyoto and that was just
out of Japan and that was a- an old, old city with all the old buildings and we were told you do
not bomb that city so we- we couldn't bomb Kyoto.
(1:08:19)
Interviewer: Right, right okay so then once the war is over how long was it before you gotgot to go back to the States?
�Well I think it was September when they signed the peace treaty so then we laid around and then
they start- they start making us fly, they were gonna start checking out, see we had an airplane
commander and a pilot. And the airplane commander sat in the left seat and the pilot, well they
start checking these pilots out to make them airplane commanders. Well we start losing, for some
reason we start and so we didn’t- we didn’t- we didn’t go for that so we didn't do much, if we
could get out of flying, we- we got out of flying.
Interviewer: Okay.
(1:09:17)
Well then after the war they, the way they discharged the guys where the length of service you,
the length of time you were in the service, the time you spent overseas in combat, that all added
up. Well one day they told us, you're gonna fly, you guys are gonna go home your crew is gonna
go home you're high enough on points. Well so we got all we got all got packed up and we got to
the plane and there were ten guys standing there, High point men from India. They had flown
them guys from India to Guam and they were gonna fly home with us and now- now when I
think about it why I flew home then as an observer I- I- I they didn't need a bombardier.
Interviewer: Right.
So I sat were the- the left Gunner sat and those ten guys stood up all the way home from Guam
to the United States and I thought, now why didn't I go, they were in the radar, where the radar
operator was standing there, them ten guys. I thought why didn't I go in there and say to one of
them guys, “hey come on and sit down here where I sit, I'll stand up for a while,” but you know
you're so anxious to get home and I- I know this- this one guy had a little cage that he had made
out of bamboo and he had a parrot in there and he guarded that parent- parrot all the way home. I
�mean we- we did stop, we stopped in Kwajalein and then we stopped again in Hawaii for a
couple days and those guys did get, you know they did get to sit down.
Interviewer: Yeah.
But when the flight time they stood up all the way that poor guy that, you know I could just as
well said to one of them guys, “hey come and sit down here a while and, but you are anxious to
get home too you know.
Interviewer: Okay so where did you land in the continental US?
(1:11:39)
We landed in, well we landed in Mather Field and I think it was just outside of Sacramento.
Pittsburgh, I think was a lil- it’s a little town and Pittsburgh and we landed there and then we got
on, we were there, I know when we- when we landed we- we could go to the mess hall and they
have, never saw a mess hall like that in my life, they had all kinds of, they had ham, they had
chicken, they had beef, they had pork, they had the best of everything and you could pick out
whatever you wanted. And- and- and coming home from- coming home from Guam we landed
in Hawaii and we were in line at the mess hall and the cook said, “well what do you want?”
“Well I’ll have a couple eggs,” so the- my pilot, the Pilot Gilbert he said, “I want a dozen eggs.”
So, okay you don’t know you’re gonna get them well then pretty soon the guys said, “where’s
the guy who wanted a dozen eggs?” he said, “here they are.” So handed Gilbert a tray with a
dozen- dozen fried eggs on it so but that- that mess hall in- in California that was really with
everything that you wanted while we were there a couple days and then we got on a troop train
then we slowly on, well when we got to I think it was a couple days we got to Chicago and then I
think, I know it wasn't Camp Grant, Fort Sheridan.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�I think they call it.
(1:13:23)
Interviewer: North of Chicago?
Yeah that's where we got and I know there were a lot of German prisoners of war there I can- I
can remember them talking German and I was there a couple days and- and then I- I got my
discharge and I but I- I- I don't think I got really actually got discharged till I think January.
Interviewer: Okay.
Of about ’46.
Interviewer: But you went home before that?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I- I think I got home right after Thanksgiving. Cause I, it was a yeah…
Interviewer: Okay alright so now you're out of the Army.
I’m out of the Army.
Interviewer: You get to rejoin your wife finally.
Yeah, yeah finally join, yeah right and you know that's what, this is what really makes me madmad yet today. I was in such a hurry to get home, why didn't I call my wife and say, “get on a
train and meet me in Chicago and we'll stay at the YMCA for a couple of days and then I’ll…”
but no, I got my discharge, I went right to the train station, I said, “I'll be home at six o'clock
tonight,” you know you do dumb things, but anyway it all- it all worked out so…
(1:14:45)
Interviewer: Alright.
We were married almost 72 two years, so.
Interviewer: Alright now once you got back home and then did you go back to work for the
newspaper or?
�Well then, yeah well then of course I got home, well then we had to look for a place to live well
du- all the time during the war there was no building going on and- and after the war there were
thousands of guys that got married, well I put an ad in the paper and I think I got three or four
calls one- one I remember one- one guy called and said, “yeah you might have to do a little
work,” it was a back porch that had onions stored on there and there's no way you could, well
then we got lucky there was an upstairs apartment the- the lady that lived downstairs had
Alzheimer's well at that time they called it hardening of the arteries.
Interviewer: Okay.
Well her sister called and said, “she's got an apartment you can rent that was furnished.”
(1:15:57)
Interviewer: Right.
So, oh yeah we grabbed that one, $25 a month and so we took that apartment and I was home
about a week and I said to my wife I said, “I'm gonna go talk to the guys at the Sentinel,” and I
got to the Sentinel and I got walked in there and started talking to the guys and the- the boss
came up to me and said, “Orley come back to work, we need you.” He said, “we’re so
shorthanded,” I said, “I- I only been home a week!” He said, “come back to work.” So, I said,
“okay.” So I was home a week and I went back to work and I kept on. I stayed there ‘til 1977 and
then my wife's parents had a furniture store and they wanted to retire, so we took over the
furniture store in 1970 and I kept on working at the Sentinel. My wife ran the store and I
delivered it afternoons. Well in 1977 my wife had health problems with asthma, she said, “we
either have to get out of the store or you have to quit.” So, I said, “okay I'm gonna quit.” So I
then I took, I came in the store full-time and- and then we had the store ‘til 1983 and then the-
�the building we were in, they were sold it and I start working for the city for ten years in the
summer and we went to Florida in the winter and so that’s all I got.
Interviewer: Alright.
Yeah, so.
(1:17:40)
Interviewer: Okay so now when you look back on it, look back at the time that you spent in
the service, how do you think that affected you or what did you learn from that?
I think every young person should be in the Army because you learn discipline. Now if me
personally, I- I could say like the- the, some guys who say, “I found a home in the Army,” I
could say, “I- I found a home in the Army.” I- I liked it I like I say I was used to being discipline
at home my father was a disciplinarian and I was used to being told what to do. So that didn't
bother me, and I was a young kid and I think I, when I think back now, I wanted to get out of the
house because my dad was a disciplinarian and I came from a big family. My mother had twelve
kids, I was the oldest and there was always a bunch of little kids in the house, I wanted to get out
of the house so I got out of the house and I enjoyed the army, I can- I can actually say I- I had, I
loved the Army.
(1:18:57)
Interviewer: Alright.
It taught me- it taught me- it taught me everything it- it grew me up it made a man out of me
instead of being a- a boy. That's- that's what I think I got out of the Army.
Interviewer: Alright well the whole thing makes for a very good story so I’d just like to
thank you for taking the time to share it today.
Oh yeah, right, right.
�Interviewer: Alright.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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VanDykeO2336V
Creator
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Van Dyke, Orley
Date
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2019-10
Title
A name given to the resource
Van Dyke, Orley (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Orley Van Dyke was born on December 30th, 1924 in Holland, Michigan. After graduating high school in 1942, he worked in printing for the newspaper for a few months. Right when he turned 18, he enlisted in the Army. He began basic training and flash and sound training for artillery in Fort Sill, Oklahoma. There he passed a test for the Air Force and changed to that military branch. He was sent to Sheppard Field, Texas for three months before beginning college at Kansas State College in Manhattan, Kansas after which he would be classified as a bombardier. He then attended pre-flight training in Santa Ana, California before being sent to Kirtland Field in Albuquerque, New Mexico for bombardier school. After a short leave, he went to Lincoln, Nebraska to be assigned to a crew. He then went to combat crew training in Alamogordo, New Mexico. After that he went to Kearney, Nebraska to pick up a new airplane and married his girlfriend there before preparing for deployment. He flew first to Sacramento, California, then to Hawaii for about a week, then to Kwajalein, and finally to Guam, where he flew to Japan for his first bombing mission. He flew a total of 24 missions. Right before the end of the war, he was involved in an in-air collision where he lost the tail and two engines from his plane. He was able to fly the plane to Iwo to be repaired. After World War II ended, he was flown home and discharged in January 1946. He returned to work at the newspaper until 1977 when he helped his wife run their furniture store until 1983. He spent the next ten years working for the city in the summer and visiting Florida in the winter. Van Dyke values his time in the military and the discipline it taught him.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
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In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng