1 24 165 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e1bb646ba3d9c01479b2c50716841e7.pdf 64f38880d1a6bbc237add67415786909 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Luis Garden Acosta Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/25/2012 Runtime: 01:59:23 Biography and Description Oral history of Luis Acosta, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on October 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: It was, what, a significant day? LUIS ACOSTA: It was a significant day for my mother and father, I’m sure, when I was born on March 17, 1945. But apparently, someone -JJ: And [who’s?] your mom and dad? LA: Apparently, more to the case, it was a day of great celebration for the nurses that were in the hospital because they were all, it seemed, Irish, at least wanted to be Irish. And so they were shouting and screaming at my mother that “He’s gotta be called [Patrick?], he’s gotta be called Patrick.” And my mother had no idea what they we’re talking about, but she kept hearing the word Patrick, and so that’s the name that stuck. So Luis Garden Acosta is this public figure that my family sometimes remembers as, oh, that’s Patrick, right. (laughter) But that’s the name, I mean, nobody obviously outside the family calls me Patrick, it’s -- JJ: And what was the date and --? LA: March 17 -- JJ: March 17, what -- LA: -- nineteen forty-five. JJ: -- nineteen forty-five, that’s right. LA: Right, [0:01:00] but it was -- JJ: And it was here, it was here? LA: It was right here in Brooklyn, and, you know, I’ve lived in Brooklyn on and off ‘cause, obviously, I went away for school and came back. But, I’m a child of the 1 �’50s who came of age in the ’60s and, slowly but surely, began to see that so many of us were oppressed. I lived in what was then the largest housing project in the world, Fort Greene houses, and certainly the poorest in New York City. The most violent in terms of gangs, the Mau Mau, Chaplains, and other gangs that were circling around it, so it was a very tough upbringing. My father died when I was seven, and the wind got knocked out of us. I mean I -JJ: You mentioned his name, right? LA: His name was Luis. JJ: Luis (inaudible) -- [0:02:00] LA: He’s Luis -- JJ: -- Junior? LA: -- [Agosto?], I’m Luis Acosta, kept the a in there. JJ: And your mom -- LA: But thank God -- JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: -- he wanted to make sure that I wasn’t a junior. JJ: And your mom? (laughter) LA: Good for him, thank you, Pop. JJ: And your mom’s name, Luis? LA: My mom is Maximina Acosta from Boquerón -JJ: And your -- LA: -- but everybody calls her [Mina?]. JJ: -- your siblings? 2 �LA: My sister is [Linda?]; I only have one sibling. She lives in Wisconsin with her husband, and she’s become a country bumpkin, they both have, although her husband would always tell me that he couldn’t get used to the country. He’s a real devoted aficionado of John Coltrane. He’s a medical doctor, African American, born and raised in Roxbury, much where I saw you last actually. And, you know, he would go in every weekend to Boston, [0:03:00] but he told me -not every weekend, every weekend of the John Coltrane Festival every year. And he told me the last time he went that he doesn’t know whether he’s gonna go anymore. I said, “Well, why not, [Edison?]?” He says, “Well, you know, I found the people to be rude,” (laughter) so he’s, kind of, gotten used to the country and the country ways so that -- she’s in Wisconsin. My mom died two years ago at the age of 97, and as I said, my father died when I was 7. Now, I can look at my birthday pictures, and I look at pictures throughout my life up to that point. I’m so well-dressed, I’m fat, I have, you know, every toy that you can imagine, I’ve got all the stuff we were living in, in the housing projects, of course. And that was due to the fact that, at the time of my birth, those housing projects had just been built for people involved in the war effort. And my father was a hard hat at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, [0:04:00] so he was eligible. So, it was like a first step for the working class in that part of Brooklyn. And it was very diverse, mostly white housing project, but by the time my father died, it was becoming more Black. And then of course as I became an adolescent, it became more an African American community and Latino community, so... JJ: And this was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 3 �LA: -- so I remember that -- JJ: -- what section of Brooklyn? LA: -- this is the -- it’s called Fort Greene. JJ: Fort Greene, okay. LA: And I remember that I began to realize this whole question of resources, economics, money when my father died because my mom would tell me in her suffering, long suffering of my father’s death. It was sudden. He never had gone to a doctor in his life -- oh, to a hospital rather in his life. And one day he’s not feeling well, he goes to the hospital, [0:05:00] a week later, he’s dead of rheumatic fever and pneumonia and complications. All of which he would not obviously die today, he’d recover and go home in a week, but in those days, the medicines that we take for granted today just weren’t there. So, we realized that we had no money, that all we had was a Social Security check, and at that point, that was less than what my mother could get on welfare. So that meant that I would have to wear army clothes from the Korean War to school because those were the hand-me-downs that my cousins, coming back from the war, would give me to wear. Means I couldn’t expect much at Christmas, if anything, and that I had to work to a paper route and other jobs that I took on to get presents for my daughter as – daughter, here we go -- my sister, who really felt like my daughter at that [0:06:00] point. Because I really had to look out for her so that she could get and have at least some of the things that I enjoyed when I was growing up. Christmas presents, all of that stuff, and I make sure she had them, but it was very tough. And I remember one day, my mother was very stressed out and 4 �didn’t know what to do. Everybody kept telling her, “You should go to the welfare department, you should go to the welfare department.” She didn’t wanna do it, but finally, she goes to the welfare department. Now, I saw my mother cry twice in my life -- the day my father died, and she was inconsolable, and the day that she went to the welfare department. She came back, you know, I hear fumbling in the door, I open the door, she’s crying, wailing away. I thought somebody had died. I said, “Ma, what’s wrong, what’s wrong?” She said, “I am never, ever, ever going back to those people, I am never going back. They treated me [00:07:00] like an animal, I will never, ever, ever go back to those people. We’re gonna somehow survive without them,” and she was so adamant about it. And I think the rage that I had against the welfare department started there, that moment. That what could they have done to my mother? How could they have talked to my mother in such a way for her to feel that way? I will never forgive whoever the bureaucrat was that did that. But the whole system was a mess, and I think that moment, the seed was planted in me to cast my lot with the poorest of the poor, and to mobilize and work to empower our community, people like my mom and the people I grew up with. I remember once, now that I think about it, the other moment in my life when I began to realize that the welfare department was something to be feared and [00:08:00] changed was one day when being taken care of... My mother went back to work at the factory, sewing machine, you know, like so many of our mothers, sewing undergarments and for very little money, by the way. And so I was being taken care of by the neighbor downstairs on the first floor, and she had other kids. And so there’s a knock on 5 �the door, and suddenly, she says, “Quick, hide him under the bed,” me. So I’m going, “What’s goin’ on here? Is somebody gonna shoot us or something,” you know?” I’m put underneath a bed, and one of her kids says, “Don’t you say a word until we tell you to come out.” Now, can you imagine -- I dunno, I must have been eight or nine, I forget [00:09:00] -- being hid under a bed without any explanation? I dunno if someone’s gonna come in with a gun and kill them, I dunno what is going on, I mean my imagination went wild. I mean, I just was praying to God that this would be okay. And I remember saying, “What, who was that?” He says, “It’s the investigator.” I said, “Who’s the investigator?” I said, “Who’s the --?” but, you know, they didn’t let me talk. They just told me to keep quiet until the investigator left, and then they said, “Okay, you can come out now, everything’s okay.” I said, “Well, what happened?” They said, “No, we can’t let the investigator see you.” I said, “Well, why not?” They said, “Well, because that’s the way welfare works.” “Welfare?” He says, “Yeah, you know, that’s how. ‘Cause, you know, our father died --” By the way mysteriously killed by somebody, they just found his remains on the street,” and a very nice family too. [00:10:00] “--and so we had to go on welfare, and, you know, they don’t allow Mom to have any other kind of money coming in. And since your mother pays my mother for a few dollars, she can’t tell them that because we need the money.” JJ: Why do you think your father was killed? LA: Their father? JJ: Oh, their father. 6 �LA: Their father. To this day, they don’t know, they just found his remains on the street, I have no idea, it was horrible, so anyway. Now, my dad died of natural causes, you know? JJ: Mm-hmm. LA: Unnatural today, but then of course, you know, without the medicines, a very common occurrence. So, I think that those moments in my life, you know, if you asked me what went on in my world to make me think that I wanted to do something about the injustice [00:11:00] that I saw. I think certainly the issue of the welfare department was big. Now, I remember once also that -- and this is kind of comical. You know, again, I was doing everything I could to make money, I mean I would sell Christmas cards, I would do all kinds of stuff I would sell. My mother would make handkerchiefs because that’s what she did in Puerto Rico to survive, you know, and I would sell those, door-to-door, and I had a paper route. So, I remember that the worst day for the paper route was a Wednesday because that’s the day that they put in all the advertisements and coupons and stuff. I said, “Oh, man, Wednesday, my arm would be dead,” you know, because I had to carry those things. And on this particular Wednesday, everybody is talking to each other, all the men that I would deliver this to and people on the street, about O’Malley and how horrible it was and cursing at him. And I’m saying, [00:12:00] “Who’s this guy O’Malley?” and I’m going like, “What is this all about?” Everybody was totally upset. So I finally asked somebody, I said, “Why is everybody upset about this guy, you know?” And he says, “Oh, it’s because he’s taking the Brooklyn Dodgers from us.” I said, “He can’t take the Brooklyn 7 �Dodgers from us. I mean that’s the Brooklyn Dodgers, I mean that’s Brooklyn, Brooklyn owns the Brooklyn Dodgers, right?” “No, Brooklyn does not own the Brooklyn Dodgers.” “Well, how come it’s the Brooklyn Dodgers?” “Well, kid, you know, you gotta grow up. The Brooklyn Dodgers are owned by one guy, his name is O’Malley, and he’s a bad guy, and he’s taking them to LA or somewhere in California.” And I said, “Oh, that’s not possible, how can one person own a baseball team? That’s insane.” I mean to my mind how can one human being own a community’s baseball team? It didn’t make any sense. Well, of course, I began to learn a little bit about capitalism then [00:13:00] and much to my horror. So, I think those, you know, moments in my life, and one very critical moment I think that really addressed it all was behind my thinking. It was a very early age, a young age, and I was in Catholic school. I went to Catholic school all my life, except for Harvard. Harvard was my first public school, and that’s how we Catholics talk about it, you know? JJ: Yeah, what was the name of this school, the Catholic school? LA: St. James. JJ: St. James. LA: St. James Pro-Cathedral because it was built as a cathedral -- as taking the place of a cathedral that was never built. So eventually, they threw in the towel and said, “Okay, it’s the cathedral, right, and now it’s a basilica,” so, but then, it was Pro-Cathedral. And, you know, one day, we’re going through The Sermon on the Mount. [00:14:00] And the sister is talking about what is sometimes referred to as The Last Judgment Gospel -- I think of it as the Community Gospel 8 �-- where Christ is talking and trying to describe what are the principles of a good life. When he says, “At the end of the world, people will be divided.” On this side will be one group, and on the other side will be the other group. And he will say to the group on his right hand, he will say, “Come beloved of my father, for you have given me to eat when I was hungry, you gave me to drink when I was thirsty, you sheltered me when I was homeless, you visited me when I was in prison or sick,” or what we call the seven corporal works of mercy in the Catholic church. [00:15:00] And, of course, some will say, “When did we do this? We never saw you, we never really did see you, so we couldn’t have done that.” He said, “Because you did it to the most oppressed, you did it to me.” Just, you know, those words, “‘Cause you did it to the most oppressed, you did it to me.” And then, of course, the other group, because you did not give me to eat when I was hungry, did not give me to drink when I was thirsty, did not visit me when I was in prison, in the hospital, et cetera. For you did not and -- treat me as a human being.” And they’re gonna say, “Well, we never saw you, we never did that.” “‘Cause you didn’t do it to the most oppressed, to the lowliest of us all, you didn’t do it for me.” And I was pretty shocked by that [00:16:00] because as the sister explained, that this was the basis on which people would go to heaven. And I’m going, “Wait a minute now, it’s not going to mass every Sunday?” “No.” “What about eating meat on Friday?” “No.” “Really? It’s not about the rosary every day?” “No.” “It’s not about the nine first novenas?” I got my list, you know. He said, “Well, all those things you’re supposed to do and you have to do, and of course, if you don’t, it’s a big sin, et cetera, et cetera. But what Christ is saying at 9 �that moment is that that is how you treat your fellow human being that is the basis of your eternal life.” And it said in the Gospel, how can you love God who you can’t see if you can’t love your neighbor who you can see? [00:17:00] I think that was the most indelible impression, and so -JJ: And how old were you then? LA: I was in grammar school. JJ: Grammar school. LA: Grammar school. So you had that and then the welfare incidence and then the O’Malley thing. See, all that happened in grammar school, so I’m like, “Oh, okay.” Now that I’m thinking about it, one other thing. I guess there’s many things when I’m -- you know, it’s funny, it’s interesting as I talk now, I’m beginning to see how this Young Lord happened. JJ: So who were your friends in grammar school? LA: Well, that’s what I wanted to say. My best friend was an African American. Now, I went to Catholic school, as I said, and one of the wonderful things about the school was that it was a working-class, mostly White school. But I say wonderful because I got to meet Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Polish Americans, and we were very, very tight. My best friend [00:18:00] was an African American, and it was interesting because he lived in Farragut Houses. And Farragut Houses were built, sort of, one step up, so we, kinda, looked at him like almost middle class, they were not at all. But, you know, like I lived in an apartment that didn’t have any separation between the living room and the kitchen, it was just one room, you know. Sometimes I didn’t have my own room, so I slept in this living 10 �room-kitchen thing. So they had separate bedrooms, they had a separate living room, they had a separate kitchen, a real one, so we said, “Wow,” you know. And His father worked for the FBI, of course later, I learned he was a clerk ’cause he wasn’t allowed to be anything else in those days. But the fact that he was an African American and was a clerk in the FBI was big for all of us and, of course, for the Black community. And the family was from the South. So we became very, very close [00:19:00] friends, and they would always invite me on vacations, Easter week, you know, stuff, full weeks, sometimes two weeks in the summer I think. I went down a lot, and the first time I went down, and I’ll never forget this, again, I’m in grammar school, about -JJ: What do you mean you went down in this --? LA: I went down with him to visit his family, you know, sort of on vacation, right? JJ: Okay. LA: And I’m going to Lexington, Virginia, to an all-Black community. There’s nobody white who lives in that part of Lexington, Virginia, so it’s an all-Black community. And it was wonderful, you know, nice house and nice hills around it and dogs, and we could really run around, and it was just natural. I mean I’m coming from brick and gray cement to a [00:20:00] very verdant place where people are just alive and connected, and it was such an exciting time. I loved [Jay?], and we were very tight. We were also very, very committed to science fiction, and we wanted to build a robot someday. I wanted to be a nuclear physicist, you know, [yeah, those?] craziness from watching science-fiction movies, right? JJ: Mm-hmm. 11 �LA: And there was one science-fiction movie that we missed, and I don’t know how because we were always on top of it, but somehow we -- I don’t know what happened. And I think it came from outer space or something like that, right? So we missed this, and we were like really jumping on each other’s back for whose fault it was not to be on top of it and who didn’t remind who. And we’re walking through town, through the main town, you know. Of course, the town is mostly white, right? And there it is, [00:21:00] the movie theater on Main Street, and there was the movie. And I go to Jay, “Jay, there it is, oh my God, and we’ve got money, we can do this, we can go” because we were going to the movies, right? and he said, “No, we can’t go.” I said, “What are you talking about? And your grandmother says it’s okay, we have the money to go to the movies, this is what we’re doing. Why can’t we go see this movie? This is the movie that we’ve been screaming about not seeing.” He says, “We can’t go in there.” I said, “What do you mean we can’t go in there? Look, come on, let’s do it.” He said, “No, we can’t go in there, talk to my grandmother, I can’t talk to you about this.” I said, “What are you talking about?” “I can’t talk to you about it, talk to my grandmother.” I says, “Oh.” I thought maybe it was polio or some disease, that’s how I thought, oh, it’s some kind of disease in there, somebody got it, and so he’s forbidden to go into the theater, and I get that, you know? [00:22:00] So that night, so we wound up going to, what, I think was called the National State Theatre to see The Lone Ranger. I’ll never forget that movie because I was so upset. I mean I like The Lone Ranger, but I was so upset that we didn’t see a science-fiction movie. So his grandmother was just one of the most loveliest, 12 �loving, caring woman I’ve ever met; she just exuded love. And I remember asking her, “[Mrs. C?], you know, we went to the movies today.” She says, “I know child.” I said, “Well, Jay and I love science-fiction movies, and we watch every one of them, and we saw this movie that we missed in New York. And I wanted to go and, and I don’t understand why we couldn’t go. And he said that we couldn’t go into theater, and he told me to talk to you about it. So what happened, somebody died there or something?” [00:23:00] She said, “Son, there’s a lot of good people in this world, a lot of good people, and they’re all different kinds of colors. But there are some bad people too, and a lot of them don’t like Black people, people of our color. And they’re not well, but they really don’t like us, and they don’t allow us to be with them. And so there are certain places that we can’t go, and so we have to be very, very careful here. It’s not like in New York City, you have to be very careful how you treat these people and that you know the places you can go and you can’t go.” And she looked at me, and I’m looking at her in disbelief. I didn’t know at that moment what I felt. I felt hurt, really hurt, [00:24:00] really, I almost wanted to cry. I felt anger, uncontrollable anger, a rage inside of me. I can remember almost trembling, but here, this woman who I loved was telling me this, so it had to be true, but in the United States of America? And this is happening, and there’s nothing we can do about it? JJ: Now what year was this? LA: I graduated from St. James Elementary School in 1958, so this had to be in the 1956 or 1957. You know, I don’t think it was my last year, it was not, it wasn’t my 13 �last year. So I was either 11 or 12, maybe around 11, and I’ll never forget that, I will never forget that. JJ: Why, did you feel it was you too, did you identify with him or --? LA: Oh, yeah, [00:25:00] I mean look at me. I was very clear from the very beginning that I wasn’t white, you know, and my father is a Black Dominican, although his niece, my first cousin would say he’s Indio. (laughter) F1: Right. LA: Oh my God, anyway, but, you know, he was a Black Dominican, and of course, so... My grandmother, who was the first woman who really, I remember as -after being born, besides my mom, obviously, and my dad, who took care of me, because my father sent for his mother to take care of me. And so that my fondest moments of being loved and cared for were by a Black woman. Of course, my first cousin said she’s Indio but -- and she’s got Indian features but she’s Black. She’s got Indian features, I give [00:26:00] her that much. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), yeah. LA: So she’s probably mixed there, right? JJ: (Spanish) [00:26:03], her name? LA: Well, you know, my -- JJ: Your grandma, your grandma. LA: -- yeah, my father’s name is Garden okay, so, and her name, you know, was [Abuela?]. You know, we’re the only Garden family in the Dominican Republic. It’s quite interesting because now, there’s been a resurgence of connections through the internet. So we’re finding actual cousins as a history on the Garden 14 �side of real political involvement. I remember when -- you know, and this is going a little aside now on the Dominican side but -JJ: That’s all right. LA: You know, one day, my sister and I were watching Roots, but maybe for the third time and – which just happened to be on TV. And it was [00:27:00] pre-VCR days and stuff like that, so, you know, you watched whatever was on, right? And so we’re watching this and then as a joke I said to my sister, “You know, maybe we should find our own Kunta Kinte and our own because we don’t have any connection to our Dominican side.” When my father died, I had one aunt here, and she was very mysterious about... And I love this aunt, and she was loving to me in every way, and I love goin’ to see her, and we were very bonded, right, but she would not tell me anything about the family. For some reason, it was all a mystery, and my sister and I couldn’t figure it out, but we just had no contact. So my sister said, “Yeah, we should, we should figure it out, we should find them somehow.” I said, “Yeah, well, let’s try looking up people in the phone book and see what happens, is there another Garden?” So she did, and she called that person because it was [00:28:00] pre-internet days, right. And that person turns out to be my first cousin, and they had known about us. I think it was... I mean it’s definitely after I was in the seminary, so they had known that I went to the seminary, that I was gonna be a priest. They knew a lot of stuff about me and about Linda, but they didn’t know how to contact us. And so we made the contacts, and we connected, and it was terrific. And then we finally went to Santo Domingo, went to Dominican Republic with my mother. My mother was 15 �able to see her husband’s family for the first time aside from my cousin who came and stayed with us and my grandmother. So it was a marvelous time for my mom and for my sister and I, and it was like, you know, going back to Africa in a way. It was like, you know, being a descendant of [00:29:00] Kunta Kinte and coming back to the Rio, whatever that river was. And they picked us up in the airport, and they said, “Okay, before we take you to the house, we wanna take you somewhere, so you know who you are.” They took us to (Spanish) [00:29:15], and there, of course, are the remains of the people who led the independence struggle and the remains of my great-great-grandfather’s nephew who wrote the national anthem. JJ: Of Santo Domingo? LA: Emilio Prud’Homme, yeah. JJ: Okay. LA: And -- JJ: What was his name again? I didn’t get it. LA: Emilio Prud’Homme, and he, you know, was a big figure in Dominican history, and of course, I had no knowledge of this. I didn’t know that. There’s a letter behind you right there to my father, from his brother from the [00:30:00] -- I guess the White House of the state of Puerto Plata, from the palace, acknowledging my father’s letter and telling him that he was fine and all kinds of things. Well, that’s my uncle, and he was president of the region of Puerto Plata five times in a row, so he was literally there forever, you know. But I didn’t know this, so it was an interesting part, you know. So people would say, “Well, this is why you were a 16 �Young Lord, this is the Dominican side of you.” (laughter) I said, “Oh, really?” So I think it was the Puerto Rican side. (laughter) But it was interesting ’cause a lot of my Puerto Rican family is, kind of, mellow, you know, so... But on the other hand, I’ll never forget the day that I think we had some kind of meeting or something at the Lords, and I came home, and usually... [00:31:00] It must have been early on in my life as a Young Lord because I remember that I would always take the beret off and would not wear it in the trains, would not give the police an excuse to attack me, so... I guess I didn’t this time, and I walked in Fort Greene Projects, you know, into my mother’s apartment, into our home, with the beret on, and my mother saw the beret, and she went crazy. (Spanish) [00:31:34] I mean, classic, classic, (Spanish) [00:31:38] Puerto Rican style, started screaming. My mother’s not that kind of a person. She’s a very religious woman, right, strong, but she wasn’t into screaming and going crazy, you know? Well, she went nuts. She really started screaming and screaming and crying and “No, this can’t be, this can’t be,” and I’m going, “What’s goin’ on [00:32:00] here?” She just looked at me, and this happened. So, my aunt was there, thank God, and, you know, she’s my favorite aunt on my Puerto Rican side and the person I was closest to in the family. And she went to see that my mother’s okay in the bedroom, and my mother’s crying, I could hear her crying, you know. And so, she comes out after a while, you can imagine how I was, I said, “What’s going on here?” And she said, “(Spanish) [00:32:31] you don’t know anything, right?” I said, “No, what, what is there to know?” She says, “You never heard the story?” “No.” “Well, we weren’t supposed to tell you, so I can understand. Your mother 17 �would tell us everybody, they could never mention this to you. We can never talk about it, so it’s the big secret in the family.” I said, “What secret?” She says, “Well, [00:33:00] how your mother came to this country?” and I go, “Well, what’s it -- how she came, how you came?” She says, “No, no, no, no, no, your mother came before us.” I said, “Well,” she says, “Well, the reason why she came was because the family, seeing that she was dying, that she would need -- that she was very depressed, that she was losing so much weight. (Spanish) [00:33:25] It took a year or so to raise enough money to be able to buy a ticket for her on a boat and send her up to the family here.” I said, “Why, what happened?” She says, “Because the man that she loved, the man that she was to be married, a week before her marriage on Palm Sunday was killed along with other people in Ponce.” I said, “The Ponce massacre?” I had heard about it, of course, you know, as a Young lord, I knew about it, [00:34:00] but I didn’t know that I had such a personal relationship to it. And she said, “Yes, he was one of the 22, and in fact, you know, he took blood, his own blood, and he wrote on the sidewalk, “(Spanish) [00:34:25].” I said, “Really?” “And you really can’t mention this to your mom, we’ve gotta calm her down, but after this, do not say a word. Never mention this because she could get very sick.” I said, “Okay.” You know, I remember growing up, and I remember because my father, particularly when he was alive that -- which I can remember, we had... You know, my father was a very generous guy, a hardworking, typical, working-class guy [00:35:00] who understood what hunger was, he went through that in his own life. So when cousins would come, you know, in the late ’40s and ’50s, right, come into Puerto 18 �Rico as part of the whole wave. People would get there, he’d always have the house available on Sundays for food and the entire family, so many people came over, and that’s how I got to know my whole family. And every Sunday, that’s what it was. And I remember once that somebody said, “Albizu Campos.” Now, you know, if you’re growing up in Brooklyn and somebody says Albizu Campos, that doesn’t sound like the name of a human being. It’s not like, you know, [Maria?] or [Luis?] or something, you know, you didn’t... So Albizu Campos, [00:35:49] and you think it’s one word, you don’t what it is. Albizu Campos (inaudible). So my mother, being the religious person that she is, I thought it was some kind of curse word like [00:36:00] (Spanish) [00:36:01] or something, another one I could never understand, and so... But I know that when somebody said that, my mom [says?], “Well, we don’t speak that way here.” So that’s what she did, she said, “We don’t speak about that here,” so okay, must be some kind of bad language. I never thought about it until of course that day, and all the pieces began to fit. I began to realize what was going on here was my mom, when my father died, how she went into deep depression, again, real deep depression, and that that was really just a recurrence of her first love. You know, she was at her friend’s house who made dresses and was making her wedding dress. My aunt told me, that [Beying?] [00:37:00], her pretendiente, her fiancé, dropped her off, and she had a premonition, my mom did. And she said, “What, where are you going?” He said, “Well, you know, we’re gonna have a march because of what happened, we have to come out.” And she said, “Oh, no, no, no, I heard there’s gonna be trouble” because in Ponce in those times, you know, 19 �people were talking about it and how bad the police were behaving. And, of course, some police officers got shot, and there was a big problem, and that they were looking for revenge, and that the governor and all that were behind them. So she said to him, “Look, you have to be careful because this is not good. I mean, what’s happening here?” He said, “Oh, don’t worry about it, it’s a Palm Sunday march, it’s kids, families, I mean, you know, it’s peaceful. We’re not gonna create any trouble, but we want to take a stand.” And he says, “You know, I’d rather die with my boots on than cower. [00:38:00] It’s time for us to be who we are as Puerto Rico, to be independent, to get rid of these Yankees, so I’m gonna take a stand, I’m gonna be a part of it. It’s gonna be peaceful, but we’re gonna stand up as men,” you know? She made that point. So he was killed. When my mother saw me, it was like coming full circle, full circle in life, and then she saw me dead, that’s what she saw. That’s why she responded the way she did because she thought, here goes the love of my life at this moment, the only one left, and they’re gonna kill him too. JJ: You mentioned the seminary, how did you get into that, the --? LA: Well, you know, let me have a little cafe. JJ: Oh. LA: My drug of choice here. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) here you go. LA: You know, [00:39:00] when you go to Catholic school, you realize that you have great heroes around you. Of course, the nuns were amazing. And also, you have to understand that it was the ’50s and the early ’60s, right, so there was no 20 �Peace Corps, there was no war on poverty. I never saw a social worker, I never saw a Puerto Rican doctor, a Puerto Rican priest, a Puerto Rican anything, right? And no real models around which to channel what was now becoming a real deep-seated feeling about injustice and about what had to be done in the world. So I began to think that perhaps God was calling me to the [00:40:00] priesthood, that God was calling me to do something special. I had dreams about it, you know, typical stuff, stressed out, and thinking about it. And so I began to think that, yeah, this is what I have to do because this is the one way, the only way that I thought I could make a difference. That I could really contribute just to try to begin to end the horrors that I had seen. And I remember a priest, a missionary priest, from the Congregation of the most Holy Redeemer known as Redemptorist. They’re the ones who created Santa Maria Reina in Puerto Rico, the Catholic university church there. I mean, they had a part in it, but they ran the church. And they had missions in Paraguay and Santo Domingo and really all over that Latin [00:41:00] -- all over the world really. The Redemptorist is the third largest order at the time behind the Jesuits and Franciscans. So he talked about, you know, the work that he was doing in Latin America and Paraguay. He talked about the hunger and the poverty, and he talked about his order as going to the most abandoned. I mean, I understood that immediately as the most oppressed, and so I was really moved by [Father Mike Travis?]. I was serving his mass, I was his altar boy, and he was visiting our church, but I was really moved by that, and so that was one, sort of, major moment in my life. But the one that really got me thinking about it and that I really wanted to model my life 21 �after was that man there, Monsignor John Powis. I met [00:42:00] him as a seminarian, he wasn’t [even?] a priest. He was one of these white seminarians, little Father Powis. I mean, he’s so much a part of us that people swear he’s everything but white, you know, I mean, really and... But then he was somebody from outside Fort Greene Projects coming into Fort Greene Projects to just hang with us, connect with us, part of a group of people who worked under the mentorship of a wonderful Catholic nun. She belonged to the Trinitarian Order, and her sister name was Sister Thomas Marie, but who she was really, her secular name, if you will, was Isolina Ferré. In fact, she went back to that name even as a nun when things, you know, opened up after [00:43:00] Vatican II. And Isolina Ferré is the sister of the governor, Ferré, the modern leader of the statehood movement in Puerto Rico, a very decent, honorable man, by the way. There’s another story I could tell about meeting him, but she was wonderful. And Father Powis, then John Powis, the seminarian, right, was, sort of, her mentee. These group of seminarians worked with the Trinitarian nuns to learn from them and to extend their work in the projects. So I was part of it as a kid, I was like 12, I was just either graduating or about to graduate from St. James, yeah, about to graduate when I met him. I guess I was in the eighth grade. Then [00:44:00] when I did graduate, he was ordained and his first assignment was my parish, St. James. Why? Because he was a pianist. I didn’t know that, nobody knew that, and we had the home of the Brooklyn (inaudible) and Choristers. The pastor of the church, Father Toomey, was the leader of the Brooklyn (inaudible) and Choristers, and they were very famous. They went all over the place singing, 22 �beautiful and fantastic voices. And so Father Toomey requested an aide, an assistant, who could lead the choristers, and so he was a concert pianist, done. So that’s why he came to St. James, right, but little did Father Toomey know that he was not interested in that. What he was interested in is me and young people like me and in the projects and in connecting [00:45:00] and really serving and working with the poor. So that became rather apparent quickly on, and of course, they went into a struggle for all the time that they were there, right? But I admired Father Powis for that; I admired for how he stood up to the pastor and how he wanted to really perform the corporal works of mercy. How he was about feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty and clothing the naked, how he was about being a Christian. And it was the first time that I had really seen a priest that actually, actually lived what Christ was talking about in the Gospel to the extent that he would -- I mean, a big complaint about Father Powis is if you saw him without a coat, and somehow you gave him a coat. Well, you know, you might have given that coat in the morning, but by the afternoon, he’d given it to somebody else. I don’t think he owned a coat half the time. He used to walk with holes in his shoes. We saw him, we said, “Oh my God, he’s got [00:46:00] cardboard,” just like we did, and I mean it was the same. And it wasn’t that he was trying to be like us or he’s romanticizing poverty in any way. It was just that he always felt somebody else needed something more and that he could do without. That he could live a life of doing without if that would help somebody else. And so I was inspired by him, and of course, my father had died, so he became my father, and I wanted to be like him. So that consolidated the idea 23 �totally in my mind, I wanna be a Catholic priest like Father Powis. Now, he belonged to the diocese, so he was just, what we called, a secular priest. In other words, he was part of the diocese. He became ordained by that bishop and he worked there. But Father Mike Travis was a missionary, and a missionary that went to the most oppressed. At that point, I didn’t think I was the most oppressed because, you know, I thought that, well, I eat three times a day, I’ve got [00:47:00] a roof over my head. We’re very, very poor, but, hey, look at these people in Paraguay or look at these people in China, look at these people in Africa. I’m rich compared to them, right? So I wanted to, of course, cast my lot with those who are the most abandoned. I’ve never asked about Father Powis what he thought about my decision; he’s very good about it. He said, “Well, this is great, wonderful,” the whole thing, very supportive all the way. But I guess he had to wonder why I would choose an order that wasn’t his, but... Because he was the one all through the seminary that I would go to. In fact, he went -- you know, it was a 12-hour trip to get to St. Mary’s Seminary in North East, Pennsylvania, right next to Lake Erie, and he made that trip at a time when I really needed him, so... I suppose I became a Young Lord because of how the welfare department treated my mom and my neighbor, and [00:48:00] because I wanted to be like Father Powis, and because I really wanted to heed what the Gospel talked about, about really being there for your neighbor. And that I saw so much suffering going on, especially in the Puerto Rican community where we had so little that when I heard... At that point, let’s say when I returned from the seminary, I wanted to see how I could express my priesthood in a more worldly 24 �way, and let me explain that. I remember once, they went into a whole new grading system in the seminary around conduct and application. Now, they were very strict. [00:49:00] I mean, if you really messed up, you packed your bags that night, and I saw that, you know. On the other hand, there were always little things that people do, but maybe they shouldn’t have done, minor things, right. So they had a system for basically telling you what your grade was in application, what your attitude was in applying yourself, and in your conduct. So they went to a system of numbers. So the priest said, “Now, no one’s ever gonna get 100 in conduct and application because that would mean that you’re perfect, and none of us are perfect, so... But we expect, oh, everybody get 95, you know, 90.” So I said, “Okay.” We all said, “All right, we’re [going to get?] 95,” or whatever it is, you know and... But there were two people in the seminary that I [00:50:00] knew of, at least in terms of when I was there, that got 100, 100. It was Tom Curley, amazing, amazing man, who became a priest, who was the one person that I met in my life who really loved knowledge. I mean, of course, I met wonderful priests and great academicians at Harvard and people like that who were very, very much committed to understanding the world and to really acquire knowledge, but he had a love affair with it. I mean he loved reading the encyclopedia. I think we saw him read it like three times or something, the whole thing, the Britannica, and we, “Hey, Tom,” said, “so what letter are you up to today?” that kind of thing, you know. He just loved learning. Everything was just beautiful for him. Whatever we were learning, Greek, whatever it was, he embraced it. [00:51:00] He was a very humble guy, extremely humble. You 25 �know, somewhat, off in his own world half the time, but really, because he was so kind and so generous and so humble, you know, “Hey, Tom, come on out.” ’Cause he couldn’t do sports, he couldn’t do any of that, so “Oh, it’s all right, oh yeah, okay, you can’t catch that one, okay, no problem, Tom,” that kind of thing, we just loved him. So he got 100 and 100, and I got 100 and 100. Now, I wasn’t Tom Curley, and I wasn’t certainly the best, but I was good at watching my back, you know. But, I mean, certainly, I’d never go for the 100 and 100, but I got it anyway. So, I only say that because I was really committed, very committed to becoming a Redemptorist priest, I wanted to. I had a very strong desire to embrace medicine. [00:52:00] I was thinking maybe they could send me to medical school, have some conversations about them. Of course, they weren’t teaching me any science, you know, other than the required physics course, which was not much, a general science course at best, but I was trying to learn as much as I could on my own. And I was definitely focused on healing, so I was thinking and hoping that they would send me to medical school, so I could be a priest-doctor. But after a while in the monastery -- and let me just explain the monastery. The monastery, so you graduate from St. Mary’s Seminary, which is a high school and a junior college, and then you take a break for all academic studies, and you go into this monastic existence for one year. You have no contact with the outside world, no contact with your family, no letters, nothing, no TV. I mean, with a couple of [00:53:00] exceptions; I’ll get into that. But literally, you are to spend the time of prayer, meditation, of learning the ways of the order, and of getting ready to take vows. Because then you take these vows and then 26 �you go on to the house of philosophy and the house of theology and then you get ordained. Come back for another year in the monastery and then go out as a priest. So, you know, all total, it’s 12 years to ordination and another year, 13th, yes. So you can say that I had finished the first six years, although I didn’t start in the seminary as a freshman. I started in high school here, the Catholic high school here, so... JJ: You were in the seminary, were you in high school you say? LA: High school and college, junior college, right. And so, [00:54:00] in the seminary -- no, in the monastery, there was only my class, so I don’t know how many we were, about 22. It wasn’t a whole lot of young people, right, and we were all, what, 17, 18, 19 but so young. And of course, the priests that were there were all there for us. Some were retired, but for the most part, they were there for us, and they were there to support us in our journey. But as I walked in every day to this big dining hall, which we call the refectory. Before you went into the main doors, through the main doors, you would see -- I remember on the right-hand side as you walked in -- a map of the world. And you would see, of course, enlarged the United States, and underneath the United States, there would be a legend explaining the different marks on the map that would relate to how many [00:55:00] schools the Redemptorist were working in, how many schools they had, how many churches they had, and then the United States was divided north and south. So if you look down in the south, there was the furthest subdivision, and that was in terms of color, how many schools white, how many schools Black, how many churches white, how many churches Black. And I looked at 27 �that. Now, you know the rage that I felt at realizing there was such a thing as segregation and afterwards the racism and the white supremacy, that that really was behind that. So I would look at that every day, and I’m going, huh, what is that? And then finally, I said to my classmates, “What is that white and Black stuff?” and they said, “Oh well, that’s the South.” I said, “What are you talking about?” “Well, we have white churches and we have Black churches.” [00:56:00] “Wait a minute, you have white churches and you have Black churches? So you mean if a Black person goes into church, you’re not gonna let them go into church?” “No, no, we let ‘em go in.” “So what’s the problem?” “Well, they have to be in the back.” I said, “What do you mean you have to be?” “Well, they can’t be up front.” “So you don’t let them go to communion?” “Oh, we let them go to communion, but they have to wait for all the white people to have their communion first, then they can go out for communion.” I said, “Are you really telling me this is what you do?” They said, “Yeah, look, this is -- Luis, you don’t understand, you’re from New York City, this is the South.” And the people I was talking to were from the South, said, “So, it’s a different culture there, we have to deal with the reality of the South. You know, you have a different life in the North, I know that, but in the South, that’s the way it has been, and it will always be that way. So we have to conform, or we can’t be there.” I said, “Are you guys crazy? I mean, are you really [00:57:00] -- are you listening to what you’re saying?” They said, “Luis, come on, calm down, this is like you’re [Atoms for Peace?].” They used to call me [Atoms for Peace?] stuff. Because they were supportive of nuclear war, and I’m going, “Are you guys nuts?” I mean, really, you 28 �know. So like three things that I wound up saying, you people are insane, the whole issue of racism and the support of it, the question of, you know, nuclear annihilation, and the support of their so-called just war. And I’m going, “There cannot be a just war if you have nuclear bombs, it’s impossible,” and they didn’t want to accept that. And of course early on, I said, “It was insane to have our services, our masses in Latin because nobody understands what’s going on, and what is the point?” And it seems so logical to me, and they said, “Oh well, yeah, sure, but that’ll never or it might change maybe a thousand years from now, you know how slow the Catholic church changes.” And I’m going, [00:58:00] “It’s gotta change now, and we’re gonna be priests, we’ve gotta make it.” They said, “No, you can’t do that because you’ll defy the Pope.” Like, “Give me all kinds of reasons why you could not use your common sense.” So I love them now; these are my brothers. You know, I understand when marines say, “They’re my brothers” because you do bond, and I did bond with them, and they were very much my family. But I remember the day that I told the novice master that I just felt that I had to leave, and he tried to talk me out of it of course. They had been thinking about me as being a bishop someday in Latin America, and they had great hopes. And spoke to the provincial, the provincial wanted to see me, you know, it wasn’t the easiest thing to do. And it wasn’t the easiest thing for me because I loved my fellow classmates; I mean, we were a family. [00:59:00] JJ: And you also did it also because of social justice in terms of --? LA: I did it solely because of that. Look, I went on with this a long, long time in my mind. I just could not leave because I could not leave my family. But what 29 �finished it for me and the reason I had the nerve and the courage to be able to talk to the novice master about it, which meant that I was making a decision, finally, was because one day, we were allowed to see a television program there. We had been allowed to see one other television program before. It was a debate between a Protestant and a Catholic priest, Protestant minister, about something related to ecumenical sort of approach, and it was great. I remember that, because at that point, it was on TV, it exciting, [01:00:00] whatever it was because we [didn’t?] see TV. The master had to leave for some meeting or something, and so the junior guy, who had just been ordained and assigned there, right, who was a Republican -- I’ll never forget this -- pro-Goldwater type said, “Well, you know, novice master is away today, and I’m in charge. And something’s very important happening, and I think you guys should see it.” So we went upstairs to the TV room, and I’m going, “Wow, this must be a very heavy debate between the Catholic and Protestant for them to want us to see it.” I’m going, “But anyway, hey, we’re gonna watch TV, so that’s good,” so... And he puts the TV on, and at that moment, Martin Luther King comes out to the microphone and says, “I have a dream.” I mean, imagine you don’t see TV at all, you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t read newspapers, you don’t know anything that’s going on. And what you see for the first time is Martin Luther King [01:01:00] say the I Have a Dream speech, the famous speech. And for me, it was like God was talking to me because here I was. I didn’t tell anybody that I wanted to leave, and I didn’t tell them why. Because in my heart I felt, you know, if I stay in the order, I’m just gonna be a rabble-rouser because I’m not, not ever 30 �going to accept the division between white and Black, never gonna happen. I’m either gonna get thrown out, and I also was supposed to be such a model student, I mean, it will be a horror. And so I thought God was talking to me, and I said, okay, that’s it, that’s it, and then I went to the novice master and eventually left. But I left hoping to think maybe to become more like Father Powis, but the war in Vietnam was just starting, people did not even know about it at the time, [01:02:00] but I was very concerned. And of course ex-seminarians usually wind up in Brooklyn in St. Francis College, and that’s where I wound up because that’s -- you have to go somewhere. You’re like a fish out of water; the world seems very strange. JJ: What is St. Francis College? LA: St. Francis College is a Catholic college in Brooklyn. JJ: They take -- seminarians [go there?] --? LA: Ex-seminarians go, I mean everybody goes there, but in those days when there were seminarians, and a lot of seminarians coming out, they usually went to St. Francis first, and that’s where they would move to. So I was told, “Go to St. Francis;” I said, “Okay, I’ll go to St. Francis.” Now think about it, St. Francis, the peacemaker, his famous peace prayer, well, that wasn’t the case at St. Francis. In fact, a friend of mine and I went to this rally that St. Francis was holding down the block right there in front of the [01:03:00] Borough Hall, and it was a rally to bomb Hanoi. It was the early days of Vietnam War, and it was a conservativesupported thing that we should go in with greater troops, and the whole thing just, you know, wiped the world of Vietnam, and it was horrifying. It was horrifying 31 �because a brother actually said the prayer first, you know, and that’s how the rally started, and it was well attended. And my friend and I, we were just, like, totally blown away because we were pacifists both of us, we said, “Oh my God.” So, soon after I left, I said, “I can’t do this class.” Eventually, of course, I got more and more involved in the antiwar movement, and I went to every major march. The only march that I did not go to in Washington was the Pentagon march ’cause [01:04:00] I think that was during the week, I couldn’t do it but ev-JJ: What years were these? LA: This was 1967 --’66, ’67, ’68, those late ’60s. JJ: Were you part of any group or you just went? LA: You know what, actually, there was two groups that I belonged to. One group was the tight-knit group. In ’67, I became a member of John Lindsay’s mayor’s office and the youngest one, and there’s a whole story behind that. But there was really some cool guys because what John Lindsay wanted to do was to recruit ex-civil rights and welfare rights people, and I was a welfare rights organizer. It was the first major organizing that I did. Or people thought it was impossible to organize welfare clients into a union, but we showed it was not only possible, but that we could create a City-Wide [01:05:00] Coordinating Committee of Welfare Groups and then a national organization, and we did all that. And then when the chairperson of the City-Wide Coordinating Committee of Welfare Groups, Frank Espada -- JJ: Oh, I know. 32 �LA: You know Frank? A very noted, wonderful militant organizer. Most people know him as a photographer, and he’s a great photographer. Of course, his work is now a part of the Smithsonian is the -- JJ: Who did an exhibit in Chicago -- LA: Right. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: The (inaudible) and Diaspora exhibit, which I hope someday will come -- JJ: The Hawaiian-Puerto Rican exhibit. LA: Exactly, exactly. So Frank, who was my compadre, my best man at my first marriage and who I was very, very close to and close to his family, and, man, I was there all the time practically. When he got [01:06:00] the job, eventually, he allowed me to volunteer, and eventually, he figured out a way to get me the job because I was very young. And my history just in terms of organizing was really welfare rights, but I was really into it, and I had learned a lot, and I had become a very good organizer. And Frank knew that, so he wanted me to organize the war on poverty, particularly here in this community in Williamsburg and other communities, but this would be my main community. So I did, and as part of that group, there was a bunch of us, like [Benny?] and others, that were really against the war in Vietnam earlier on. This is before people, kind of, put up to this, and we wanted to make sure that there was a Puerto Rican presence. The marches were mostly white, and we wanted to make sure that the world knew that Puerto Ricans were against the war. [01:07:00] In those early days, a lot of Puerto Ricans weren’t, unfortunately, because we all swallowed the anti-communist 33 �propaganda and that kind of thing. So it was difficult talking to even members of our families about this because they would feel that somehow, we were being cowards in not going to the army. Or they would ascribe all kinds of other issues to the real issue, which was that it was an immoral war and that we had to stand up against it, so... Not to mention the fact that we were pacifists, which is a whole other can of worms for some people. So anyway, so we decided we’d get the biggest Puerto Rican flag we could get, huge, right? And if you look with a magnifying glass at all those pictures, just look for the Puerto Rican flag, and I’ll be right underneath it. So I was very much in that whole, sort of, Catholic Social Action [01:08:00] effort also. So it was that plus Catholic Social Action circles that I was part of, the [Bergen?] Fathers, the Catholic Worker, Catholic Peace Fellowship. They helped me very much get my deferment, you know, because... JJ: So you marched with the Bergen? LA: Oh, yes, I was very much a part of because I was from the seminar, still feeling like, “Okay, I’m trying to express my priesthood, this is the way I’m gonna do it.” And so it’s no longer gonna be in a structured Catholic church, it’s gonna be Catholic Worker, it’s gonna be a soup kitchen, it’s gonna be this, it’s gonna be that, it’s gonna be the antiwar movement, you know. So, that’s where I was in 1969, in December, when I heard about this group of young people who were trying to get a church to perform the corporal works of mercy. I said, “Oh my God,” [01:09:00] and this is what had moved me all my life, right? So I hear that they were trying to create a breakfast program, they were trying to get a clothing drive going. They were trying to get a liberation school where young people 34 �would learn about their history. They were trying to help people in all sorts of ways. They were tryin’ to perform the corporal works of mercy, what Christ told us would be the criteria for acceptance into the kingdom of heaven. They were tryin’ to be Christians, and that for that, the police had come in and beat them up and bloodied an entire church. And that had just happened, and the word spread like -JJ: So the police came in and...? LA: The police. Because it was the First Spanish Methodist Church. Now, I’m a Catholic, so we have a different set of rules, but within the ceremony of the service of the Methodist Church, there is [01:10:00] a moment when one can speak up and pray out loud and talk to God about things that are happening, right? And so Felipe Luciano, who was the first chairperson of the Young Lords, had tried with other Young Lords to speak to the pastor of the church who was from Cuba. And so unfortunately, what he saw when he saw the berets was -well, he fled. So he saw Fidelistas, and he didn’t want anything to do it. So, of course, Felipe also has a Protestant background, and he had friends who went to that church, whose families went to that church, so explained the process to him. So he said, “Well, we’re gonna go to church, let’s go to church and let’s just plead our case directly.” So he got up and said who he was and said why they were there and what they were doing. And as soon as he did that, [01:11:00] the pastor gave a nod to a plainclothes police officer in the church. He went outside and brought in uniformed police officers, a whole bunch of them who started 35 �swinging their billy clubs at the Young Lords. They broke his arm, there was blood over the entire, entire church, it was horrible. And it was the first time -JJ: The entire -- LA: Felipe’s was blood and other Young Lords, yeah. And I am told it was the first time ever that the New York City Police Department ever entered a church during a ceremony and actually assaulted people. So that news went all around the world, and of course, you know, it basically got to everybody in New York City and Latinos talking about it, and I heard about it immediately. And then we were told that next Sunday there was gonna be a -- that people [01:12:00] are gonna go up there support what the Young Lords were doing. And so we went up there, and the Young Lords just had the church, and they basically talked, and it was wonderful. And I remember I was sitting next to Richie Perez who was his first time too. He was a teacher, and I liked Richie because Richie looked normal. (laughter) I mean, we all had long hair, but that was normal for us in those days. But, you know, he had a job, he was a teacher, he was real, he didn’t look as flamboyant as Pablo and Felipe. You know, they were really great guys and very charismatic and all that, but for me, it’s a little scary. Remember, I’m from the seminary, you know, and they’re talking about armed struggle and stuff like that, and I’m going, “Ooh, I don’t know if I can do that, [01:13:00] it’s not for me,” so... And Richie -- JJ: You’re a pacifist. LA: I’m a pacifist, right, but I agreed with them and everything that they were saying, and I was moved by them [hence?]. But I figured I have to get some kind of 36 �reading on this from a guy I can trust, so at some point, I turned to Richie. I said, “Richie, would you consider joining this?” ’Cause right there, I was there, I was there, I was so there by that time, right? Because what was missing in my life was, yeah, I had the Catholic Social Action Group, but it was mostly white, loved them, but it wasn’t my people. I had this small, little group at work, but we were singular, right? There wasn’t a group. I tried the Movimiento por Independencia, but I thought, you know, I can’t really hang with these people and my Spanish isn’t good enough. You know, I thought it was a Spanish issue, right? JJ: Mm-hmm. LA: Later I realized it was a class issue, right? JJ: Yeah. LA: But, [01:14:00] then it was like I’d be tongue tied, (Spanish) [01:14:02], et cetera., you know, so I really couldn’t hang with them. I liked them, especially since they were committed to independence and of course brought me into the culture, the music, the poetry, the cancion and all that. But they weren’t me, you know, and they didn’t really represent our experience, so I didn’t have a group. So when Felipe was talking and Pablo was talking and Juan Gonzalez, and I had met David before then -- JJ: David Perez. LA: -- David Perez, yeah, through a friend, and I trusted that friend. So I knew David was a good guy, a good working-class guy, a guy like me, like my family. I was really ready, but as I said, they were very charismatic and very forceful, and I was enraged as they were, but [01:15:00] I don’t know if I would use that 37 �language. And so when Richie said, well, he’s thinking about it, I said, “Well, okay, Richie, if you join, I join,” and we both joined together the same day. JJ: And then after you joined, what kind of actions were you involved in? Was there a demonstration --? LA: Wow, well, of course, the first thing was the people’s church. We’d be taking over the church and holding it, I think, for about 14 days, wasn’t it? JJ: Yeah, I went one day, I came from Chicago. LA: Yeah, you did? Yeah. JJ: Yeah. LA: Well, it must have been a very special day. JJ: Yeah. LA: So I had a child and -- JJ: And what’s your child’s name? LA: Arianne, [Arianna?], and Arianna was, you know, maybe -- yeah, she was born in 1968, so she was about a year old. And so that meant that I could not be there every single day or at least could only be there for a few hours [01:16:00] every day, right? So we all planned this, this takeover, and it was understood that, at some point, the police were going to come and arrest us. And so, you know, I -- JJ: Make sure you don’t say anything -- LA: I was given a dispensation for being there for that because obviously I had a daughter, so I missed that one and... But, you know, I was involved -- JJ: First, you guys took over the church and so -- 38 �LA: Yes, we took over the church, and eventually, after negotiations, et cetera, et cetera, we were arrested, you know. But we held it for a good long time. JJ: How many people were arrested? LA: Jeez, I don’t remember. JJ: But I mean a lot of -- LA: A lot of people, yeah, but – and it was in the middle of the night, basically, who did that kind of number. But we had, you know, for like -- was it 14 days? I can’t remember how many days it was. [01:17:00] For a good while there, every single day, we had so many different activities there. I mean, you could see what it was that we were talking about because it was all about -- JJ: What kind of activities were --? LA: Oh, everything from cultural activities to the actual practice of the activities we wanted to begin with, the practice programs, the liberation school, the clothing drives. All that stuff happened in those two weeks, and it was wonderful. Of course, every day, the headlines, you know, when is Lindsay going to act and, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff but we were doing all kind. Even at one point, we had a real religious service there with the bishop of Puerto Rico who came, remember? JJ: Right. LA: And the gospel was from the Red Book; he quoted Mao. I thought I’d died and gone to heaven; (laughter) It was amazing, so... So I remember those days; it was just very moving. [01:18:00] But I was involved in the health and education minister, so I was under the leadership of Juan Gonzalez, which was great, 39 �because Juan was amazing and still is a very close friend. And so I was involved in issues around TB testing and sickle cell anemia, and my focus was TB testing and in other areas like -JJ: And you guys -- LA: -- the clothing drive and stuff. JJ: -- someone to the team for it to -- LA: I’m sorry? JJ: Someone -- LA: Yeah, yeah, oh well, yeah -- JJ: -- during that time? LA: I wasn’t there for that, okay. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: But, yes. Well, they had this mobile TB, tuberculosis, truck where you could get an examination and an x-ray. And it was in some part of Manhattan that really where it was a middle-class community, people had access to health care. It really was in the wrong place, so they weren’t getting much business, right? So [01:19:00] very politely, we told them we’re taking over, and we told them where they had to go, and, of course, I think they were probably a little concerned, but there were many of us. So they moved to East Harlem, to the block where they really could get a lot of people, and people needed those services. At the end of the day when the reporters came and everything else came, and they asked people how did they feel about being kidnapped, and they said, “Well, no, we weren’t. In fact, you know, they were right, we were in the wrong place and they 40 �treated us very well, and we should be here.” I think early on, our reputation grew as the so-called “Polite Revolutionaries” in New York City. Unlike what the media had portrayed as the Black Panthers. I mean the Black Panthers were as polite as we were, but they got the bad press. We got a lot of favorable press because everything that we did, eventually, people say, “You know what, they were right, this is [01:20:00] what we should be doing.” We took over Lincoln Hospital, but it was after creating the Think Lincoln table where we would get complaints. And we would basically generate all these complaints and bring them to administration, “Look, this is stuff that you’ve gotta deal with, right?” Of course, they didn’t wanna deal with it, so we had to organize the nurses as part of -- some of them, of course, not all of them -- the Health Revolutionary Unity Movement, the HRUM. And together with them and other doctors and people who worked in the hospital, we took it over. Now, at the end of the day, people said, “Yeah, Lincoln Hospital should be closed, and no one should be opened, and the Young Lords were right,” so in almost every situation. I think only one situation that -- well two situations where I think -- and we ourselves felt [01:21:00] that we were wrong -- was when we took over the church again. I was in Boston by the time I -- [Josephina?] and I had opened up the branch in Boston. JJ: (inaudible), okay. LA: And I founded the branch in Massachusetts, and so I was there for most of -- a lot of this, right. And so what happened was that we took over the church again but with rifles. Now, I wouldn’t have been a part of that, you know. Now, it wasn’t that -- 41 �JJ: It was that time, it was that era. LA: Yeah, it was that era and... JJ: Today they call it Occupy but it was the same --? LA: It’s the same concept, yeah, the same concept. JJ: It was just that era that -- LA: Yeah, and, you know, we were very, very upset. We felt we had -- take a dramatic kind of action. Richie was telling me about it -- [01:22:00] JJ: I’m not saying it was wrong, I’m just saying of that era. LA: Richie was telling me about it, and I said, “Richie, come on, guns, come on.” And Richie just bowed his head and said, “Yeah, bro, I know but...” So Richie would never tell me it was wrong either, but I knew what he felt, and that’s why he became a wonderful brother to me. And I always considered him my mentor even though we’re the same age, but I would always go to him to think things out around politics particularly and our struggle, so... That was one that I think, you know, some people, rightfully so, would argue that that wasn’t the best day for the Young Lords. I think the other one was the takeover of the front of the Puerto Rican Day Parade. And, again, we were brought in from Boston, you know, I came with my guys and stuff, [01:23:00] and we were told that we had decided that we had enough of the Puerto Rican Parade being led by the New York City Police Department. That the people should lead the parade, and that what we were gonna to do was to jump the parade and be at the front. So that was the plan, and I’m going, “Richie, does this make sense?” It’s like I’m out from Boston, so I’m like just getting it, I’m not a part of the thinking process, I didn’t go 42 �through in this, and I’m going, “Why would we wanna do this?” I mean I remember going to the Puerto Rican. The early days of Puerto Rican Day Parade, you would just show up and walk the streets, that was it, and my mother did that, so... And so I remember as a young boy walking with my mother on Fifth Avenue, and it was wonderful, so I had fond memories of the Puerto Rican Day Parade. I do understand the politics and how it’s used [01:24:00] basically to aggrandize certain so-called political Puerto Rican leaders and how the politicians use it basically to pacify our community in some cases or win votes. And you know, it seemed like the police department, given the kind of assaults of our community that the police department had perpetrated, shouldn’t be the ones leading it, so it made sense in a way. But on the other hand, you know, taking the front of the parade was gonna be a dangerous kind of thing, and people might take it the wrong way, and it may not be something that we should be doing. And I told Richie that, and he said, “Bro, we thought about this, it’s important,” blah, blah, blah,” and I said, “Okay.” So the mistake was that we were not gonna wear for the first time our [01:25:00] berets or anything identifying us as Young Lords. The idea would be that we would go -- at some point when the parade nearing us, we were gonna jump out into the streets, disclose who we were because people followed us, they trusted us. Again, they marched with us 10,000 strong to the UN. I mean, everything that we did was huge, people -- and rightfully so. We were very good and very respectful at what we were doing all the time. And so that was the plan, except we hadn’t counted on the fact that we had people that had infiltrated Young Lords and knew about 43 �these plans, that the police department knew about these plans. And so all of a sudden, from out of nowhere, comes this big Puerto Rican flag. That goes on to the street, people start screaming and hollering, you know “Young Lords.” And then these people that looked like the so-called classic militants jump [01:26:00] out and tell people, “Come on, come on out to the street.” Now, the people knew that we were gonna take the front of the parade, right, so they go out into the streets. Now -JJ: So these were agent provocateurs. LA: Agent provocateurs, and I’ll tell you how I learned that because there was one guy particularly who was moving everything. Black, maybe African American, or Black Latino, I don’t know, but he had a beret on, and he had all kinds of medals. You know how we were told all the time, anybody who has a lot of buttons, you gotta worry about them, they’re probably an agent, right? So he had all that stuff on, and he was telling me, “Come on, we’re taking the front of the parade, we’re taking the front of the parade.” And then we’re going, “No, no, no, stay back,” but they wouldn’t listen to us because they didn’t know we were Young Lords. They thought that was the Young Lords. The flag was out there, people just jumped, the parade was nowhere near us, and the police were on the side streets, you know, totally armed to the hilt with all kinds of gear and trucks and everything. Just it was a setup [01:27:00] so that they could come in and mop the place up, literally, and arrest us all, clean the streets before the parade even got there, and that’s exactly what happened. A lot of people hurt, I saw a baby carriage go up in the air, I saw horrors that I had never seen before. I remember that people 44 �were screaming and trying to get into the lobbies of the buildings on Fifth Avenue, and the doorman would not let them in. And I remember that you can only do this when you’re so in the moment that you get this kind of strength. I remember that, I said, “Look, these people have to get in, there’s a mob of police officers swinging their police clubs, they’re gonna get hurt.” “Oh, we can’t let you in,” I said, “Yes, you are gonna let us in,” and I took one with one hand, and the other with the other hand. Now, come on, how strong [was I?]? Not that strong. I lifted them both and threw them. Now, I don’t know how I did that. [01:28:00] It’s impossible normally because I wasn’t that strong, just normal. I opened the doors and said, “Come on in,” and people went to the lobby. So when I had them secured, I went back out to see what else I could do. I saw the guy that started it all after the flag, the African or Black Latino dressed up as a so-called Young Lord. And I followed him because I wanna see who this guy was. And I followed him, followed him, followed him, and he was moving up back to the front of the parade. The parade by that time had passed by. Of course, a lot of people oblivious to what happened ’cause it was all in the press in the night and everything else, [the stories?]. But those people behind them had no hint that something like that had happened. People were bloodied and -(break in audio) M2: Yeah, that’s the only piece that’s missing because my project’s more specific to who you are now so -- LA: I think I was talkin’ more about today, right? M2: You talked about today and the [01:29:00] past were you -- you know? 45 �LA: Yeah, whatever, so you look at it and tell -- M2: That’ll be great. Yeah, I think that’s missing, so let’s -- LA: Okay, let’s -- we’ll do it. So... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: Okay, yeah. (break in audio) JJ: [Really?]? LA: Really JJ: [Sued?]? LA: Yeah, I mean ’cause we sued. JJ: Now we were talkin’ about when we -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: I feel like so (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) yeah, he did, he did real time. (laughter) I got money for my time. F1: Your -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Okay, now we were talking -- LA: So I’m watching this guy, and other people had also, when they saw what was happening, started walking up away from the police, right? JJ: Mm-hmm. LA: So all of a sudden, I see him jump to the other side of the street, and there, I see on the ground an elderly gentleman who just had a heart attack. He was one of those people. I guess all of the horror that he saw just got to him, and he had a heart attack and actually [01:30:00] died. And so he immediately goes to the -- 46 �he was the first one on the scene, and I’m right behind him. He doesn’t notice me, and he immediately, you know, checks for vital signs or anything else. I’m going, hmm, and then the police come, and then he takes out his badge. I said, “Son of a gun, you know, they just set it up totally.” So that’s how I knew that it was all a setup. JJ: This is gonna be the Puerto Rican -- LA: Puerto Rican Day Parade. JJ: -- Parade? LA: Yeah, so that was not a high point in our history. But the support -- JJ: So why wasn’t that a high point? I mean what do you --? LA: Because we didn’t understand fully the kind of (inaudible), the reporting that was going on, number one. Number two, because it just wasn’t the right thing to do, [01:31:00] with a sacred cow like the Puerto Rican Day Parade. You know, there are some things that are done incorrectly and are exploitative of our people, but our people believe in them. And so it’s not our place at that moment to contradict that, but to create a context for our people to understand what’s really going on. So I believe that we didn’t create that context for that Puerto Rican Day Parade. We just confronted it believing that we had the people on our side. And I guess if we had done it in a way like we used to do things, right, we might have been able to pull it off. JJ: What do you mean the way you used to do? LA: Well, I mean, the early days of the Young Lords. I wasn’t there, obviously, but the stories that I first heard when I got to the People’s Church. But this is in the 47 �summer of ’69, and the People’s Church was in December of ’69, right, on how [01:32:00] the Young Lord started. The Young Lords started basically as the Sociedad Albizu Campos, a bunch of college students from Stony Brook and Columbia, Juan and others who had gathered together mostly because of Mickey bringing people together, Mickey Melendez, and some kids who were not in college who had also somehow connected with them. And, you know, it, at first, was more of a study group of people tryin’ to figure out what to do. You know, they were, sort of, more of the classic Marxists who thought you had to read the 50 books of Lenin before you could even do anything, you know, and others who wanna do everything without even thinkin’ about it, so it was that mix. So finally, I guess as a compromise, they decided, well, here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna go on a Saturday morning, and we’re gonna go and clean up the streets. The number one issue that people could obviously see was a major problem [01:33:00] was the garbage because garbage was piled up in our communities like a couple of stories high in some cases. The city had basically abandoned the kind of garbage pickup they had on Park Avenue. That wasn’t for us in the so-called ghetto. So we thought that if we could clean up the garbage, people would see that, and they would follow our lead, and before you know it, we had people engaged and we can begin to start demanding our rights. So we started doing that as the story goes, and people saw us, and they mocked us. They started saying, “What do you think, you guys the sanitation department now?” so they didn’t get it at all, you know? And so people went back to their clubhouse, you know, and said, “What was that about?” It’s like, we gotta change up that 48 �somehow. We thought, okay, the next time we do this, we’re gonna put the garbage in the middle of the street. [01:34:00] We’re gonna stop traffic, that’s gonna get people’s attention, and that’s gonna really demand that the city, in fact, change their policy, so we did that. Now, I think a couple of people knew what Felipe was gonna do. I’m not sure all the Lords knew at that moment, other than the central committee, what Felipe was gonna do. I’m not clear; I wasn’t there. But Felipe doused the garbage with, I guess, some flammable liquid and torched it. And then, as the flames sprang up, screamed at the top of his lungs, and you know Felipe can scream, he’s got an incredible voice, “(Spanish) [01:34:42]!” And everybody heard that, and people were opening up the windows and said, “What’s goin’ on here?” and he said, “The Young Lords!” And so we did that, all right, but we had like a van plan, we had an escape plan immediately. So immediately, we knew that we had to go into the stores, the bars, [01:35:00] the restaurants, we had to go in there immediately. Everybody had sneakers on because we could run fast, take our beret out, put it back in, look normal, and then come out as the people came out and said, “Whoa, you know, the Young Lords were at it again.” And this happened every weekend in the summer, to the point that by Friday night, there were helicopters over El Barrio looking for Young Lords to see where they were gonna strike next. We’d always do it, we’d always strike, we’d always do the same thing, and we’d meld into the masses and come out with everybody else, and nobody knew. Everybody assumed that Young Lords like, I don’t know, hundreds and hundreds of people, like the Black Panthers that stay out in the West Coast, but the reality was, it was a very small 49 �group of guys. Some women, definitely, Sonia Ivany and others, but mostly young people and a very small group at that. So, you know, that was [01:36:00] the kind of thinking that was going on in the Puerto Rican Day Parade, but as I said, the police department was one step ahead of us. JJ: Okay. You mentioned (inaudible). LA: Yeah. JJ: What was that, what was your involvement with --? LA: Well, I founded El Puente and then -- JJ: Oh (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LAC: -- El Puente -- and I founded El Puente in 1982 because -JJ: And El Puente is what, what is that? LA: Well, El Puente means “the bridge” in Spanish. And I thought that given what was happening in our community, that we needed a more mass-based place to convene our people to stand up for our human rights. It couldn’t be a political party. It had to be a place that was open to everybody and that was safe [01:37:00] and -- JJ: So mass-based -- LA: -- welcoming. JJ: -- meaning everybody, open to the community? LA: Welcome to the community with certain principles, of course, but not so ideologically determined that it would basically chase people away even before they got to know and engage in El Puente. And particularly focus on young people, why? Because 12 months before I opened up El Puente. In a period 50 �from 1979 to 1980 -- I opened up El Puente up in 1982 -- we had lost 48 young people in a section of Williamsburg. Some 30,000 to 32,000 people, one square mile called the Southside, Los Sures, very famous. This was El Barrio, the most -- the community with the census tract [01:38:00] in all of New York State with the highest concentration of Latinos. It was also part of the second poorest congressional district. It was the poorest community in the city, in the state, the poorest Latino community, so... And it was also obviously the most violent because we lost 48 young people in that one square mile, virtually one every single week through gang violence. We were, as the mass media defined, as the teenage gang capital of New York City. And everybody had a show on us, Geraldo, Donahue, all the different stations talked about the Southside and the killings in the Southside, and our own community was very much afraid to walk the streets. JJ: Was this before it got gentrified or--? LA: Oh, nobody wanted to come to the Southside. This was the most concentrated Latino community, mostly Puerto Rican. Nobody wanted to come, and virtually everybody was [01:39:00] Latino, and of course, nobody ever thought that anybody would ever wanna come and live here. You know, people at any moment, if they could get away, got away. I had founded El Puente, it was the process of it, and basically realized that if I was going to be able to build a base in this community, I had to live here, and so... And the other people who worked at El Puente who volunteered, because we were all volunteers at the time, also had to live here. So I would not allow people to be working with us or volunteer 51 �with us who did not live here, so I bought my own house here. Now, my mortgage was 200 dollars a month; it was virtually nothing. I didn’t have a credit card, so I borrowed some money from a friend for the closing cost and basically got [01:40:00] the house for nothing. And that’s the way it was because people -and even the woman who sold to me, I told her, “Listen, things are gonna change, if you want, I’ll just rent here if you have second thoughts about giving up the house,” she said, “Oh no, no, I’ve been dying for this and I’m so glad you came along and I know you mean well, but nothing’s gonna change.” And I told her, I said, “You know --” but she insisted, she was so happy to leave, so, and for good reason. I came home one night, there was a dead body that shoot up, and just before I arrived, the police were just arriving right. One week, I remember the very famous week that I had guns pointed at me by both the police and some gang kids, so in two different incidences. So it was a very difficult place, so we knew that we had to create a space that was a neutral zone in terms of the gangs. [I had to?] get agreement where [01:41:00] their younger siblings could come, and they would be safe, and that’s how we began. But when they got here, I would explain to them that this was about a movement and that what we wanted -- yes, we wanted them to learn how to do breakdancing and all the different other activities I would get volunteers to do, and then eventually, I got some money and actually could pay people. But the whole point was to promote peace and justice, and that we had to be those people to stand up for our communities to stop the injustice that was going on. So out of this came the Toxic Avengers of El Puente, the first Latino environmental group in the city, 52 �[Mash?] Ministry, a health group, all kinds of groups. The El Puente Dance Ensemble was, recall, celebrated, throughout the state and region, reviewed by the New York Times and a very professional group. In fact, there were only two groups allowed to perform at the United Nations [01:42:00] children’s summit before 75 heads of state, ambassadors, and wives -- (coughs) JJ: You want some water? LA: Yeah, I could (inaudible). And it was El Puente and another group called [Sounds of Nature?], a very good group, but we were the only two groups, so that gives you a sense of the quality of the El Puente Dance Ensemble. Of course, [Dator?] El Puente was the first adolescent-aged trauma group in the country, started in 1987, still going strong. So the many, many groups that have come out of El Puente have been about peace and justice. And I got this from both my Catholic Social Action and, in particular, the Young Christian Worker movement. (Spanish) [01:42:57] gave rise to liberation theology [01:43:00] in Latin America and union struggles, and we were part of it here, in our church here in Transfiguration Church. And that’s where I met what would be eventually the cofounders of El Puente, people I went to, “Listen, let’s do this,” and who said, “Yeah, we’re down with you.” And like Frances, who’s the executive director today, she was the first one to -- she had started the Williamsburg Arts & Culture Council for Youth, so she was doing dance classes. She was a professional dancer who was home healing from an accident and, in the meantime, actually teaching young people about modern dance. Thought she was gonna go back to it. And her brother, who was a fine artist, and taught -- 53 �JJ: Who’s her brother? LA: Frank Lucerna, yeah, it’s either the Frances or Frank, kind of runs in the family, you know, is the way I -- you know, so... [01:44:00] And Gino Maldonado, who was one of the four incorporators, along with me and Father Steve and Judy Agostini in terms of state charter, who’s been with El Puente from day one and now is the chief of operations after 30 years of doing this. So it was a coming together of the Young Christian Worker movement and the Young Lords in a way that could be very appealing to everybody. We call them the 12 principles. Four cornerstones of those 12 principles are holism. That our approach was not gonna be categorical in terms of one part of the human person or the other, but that we were gonna relate to each other as whole human beings. [01:45:00] A very novel notion in 1982, by the way, holism. When I would speak of holism, people thought I was talking about brown rice or acupuncture or something, you know, something mysterious. And no, I was talkin’ with them about how we should approach ourselves, how should we connect with ourselves. And focus on development, not on some disease, human development, our development, our development as neighbors, as human beings, and a community. And the second most important cardinal principle for us... Well, we have 12 principles, so let me... Holism was a part of an approach. So we break up the 12 principles into beliefs, tools, and goals, right? So lemme just talk about the goals because I was going more into the belief system. So the goals are, [01:46:00] number one, creating community. We need to promote in every member of El Puente that their first responsibility always is to create community wherever they are, whether 54 �they are in prison or outside of this present community. Wherever they are, where they find themselves, their job as human beings is to create community. And the second one, the second cardinal principle is really a corollary of that, and that is to love and care for each other. So loving and caring, the second cardinal principle. The third one is mastery. That we are about excellence in everything that we do. It’s not about getting by, so it’s about really honing our skills, whatever we do, you know. Our relationships have to be the most loving, our learning has to be the most excellent, our applications the best. [01:47:00] Our community and this world is rather oppressed, so it’s our obligation to be masterful in our approach to change it. And the last one is peace and justice. That what we stand for and that the most important thing in terms of creating community and loving and caring for each other and being masterful is to promote peace and justice. JJ: Yeah, can you say something about Boston when you worked there? LA: Okay, so... JJ: Just because that’s the difference. LA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so let me just -- you know, just so you have it on the history -finish with El Puente. So 30 years later, we are seven sites. We’re the first public high school for human rights in America. Actually, PBS did a survey of 52 countries and declared on primetime, on national television that the El Puente [01:48:00] Academy for Peace and Justice was the only public school in that – in our case high school, for human rights in the world. We thought we were the only one in the city, but then the state department let us know we were the only 55 �ones in the country, and PBS declared that we were the only ones in the world. Now, we opened up in 1993, so that was some 11 years later since the founding of El Puente as a whole. We are a community health and environment institute. We were able to stop the development of a 55-story incinerator that was already legislated in the city by the New York City Council by, four years later, getting the governor to basically sign into law a measure for bidding incineration, so basically, doing away with that vote of the city council. And been doing all kinds of stuff around environmental justice ever since, including last year launching [01:49:00] a 10-year initiative, which we call the Green Light District, to transform this one square mile called the Southside of Williamsburg, by knocking on everyone’s door, engaging everybody we can, block by block, to transform ourselves into a community at the highest level of community health and environmental wellness. Doing wellness assessments, looking at our physical, our emotional, our political, our environmental, our artistic, and cultural wellbeing, and then coming up with action plans, engaging everybody. Because you’re right, we’ve suffered gentrification, and a lot of our community, even though we’re still slightly the majority in the core aspect of the Southside, we won’t hold on to that for long. The important thing is for those of us who are here to stay here and to believe that we have a future here. And of course when you wake up one day [01:50:00] and all the bodegas are gone, and instead you have very nice French bistros and bagel stores and all kinds of other things. I’m not saying anything against them, right, but they’re not our bodegas, and they’re not our restaurants, and you, kind of, feel like it’s gone. And you’re not hearing salsa 56 �music at every street as we do in the summer, and you’re not seeing all the people playing dominoes everywhere as we used to, and what you mostly hear is some rock music. You begin to think it’s all over, and that all that’s left is for you to move, and we’re saying no, we’re staying here. So, in fact, we’re committing ourselves a green light to move forward, and so that’s what we’re doing. And thus the Green Light District involve five different committees and looking at greening spaces, looking at health, looking at making all the changes we need to shrink our carbon footprint in our homes and our buildings. Every aspect of our [01:51:00] life is covered by this Green Light District. And we have a fantastic garden, amazing gardeners from the so-called hipsters, white, upper- and middle-class young people who are now part of our community, to people from Bangladesh who are living among us, to, of course, Latinos, everybody. I always felt -- and I say this is kiddingly, but somewhat serious -- I think that we could have a really good comedy reality show just putting a camera on the garden because it’s so funny the kind of cultural stuff that comes up. It’s a riot. Keeps the person in charge of the garden very busy all the time. And, of course, we have our leadership centers. So we have three leadership centers in Williamsburg and one in Bushwick [01:52:00] where young people and two of them, adults, become -- are members of El Puente. We have two that are mostly adolescent, but two that are everybody from 6 years old to 60 and beyond. So we have all of these activities going on. And for some people with the most -and we are the most comprehensive Latino center for art and Culture; we have 29 artists on staff. For others, we’re the community health and environment 57 �institute, and all they hear about is the environmental justice work and stuff like that. And still for others, we’re the pioneers in educational reform, in the small school movement, in the social justice movement. Remember, there are no schools in social justice until we started one. Now, there are also kinds of schools for social justice. I remember the Albizo Campos School coming up from Chicago, and of course, they’re a private school, but we’re a public school. And until they really [01:53:00] brought it up, I said, I always know in the back of my mind that we’re good at infiltrating the system, you know, but they really brought it to witness it. They, “This is a public school,” and I said, “Yeah.” “They let you have these images and do this work, and you have Che Guevara everywhere, and you have all this stuff and...?” I said, “Yeah, of course.” “It’s a public school?” (laughter) I said, “Yes, it’s a public school.” So I think that brought it home to us how lucky we were actually in having a great chancellor, Joe Fernandez who believed in us and thought that we could create a great school, and I think we’ve lived up to it. We’re virtually A+ rated every year. Our young people... JJ: Isn’t that [Joe?] Fernandez from Lehman College, isn’t it? LA: I think he went to Lehman, I’m not sure. JJ: No, this guy was the president. LA: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. [01:54:00] No, he didn’t go to Lehman, no, not the same. That’s right, not Joe. JJ: I don’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 58 �LA: Joe actually is a New Yorker, joined the service. I think he got a GED, I’m not sure, I’m sure that’s how he started, you know, but eventually he became the -he became --he’s -- he became rather famous nationally as the head of the Dade County Public School System, and then he came to New York, a good guy. And he started this movement to create small schools, and he would allow these small schools to partner with the department of education if they had a good idea. These small groups, well, most of them were academicians, okay, universities, colleges, and stuff, and there were three of us that he accepted that were very different. One was the union, 1199, so they were allowed to start a school. One was a church, the Abyssinian Baptist Church, Powell’s old church, right, and [01:55:00] the other one was El Puente that was known more for taking over school buildings (laughter) than for, you know, creating them. And he believed in us, so, of course, everybody else didn’t, and they thought we would just implode in a year. And we wind up being a shining example of what is possible when you really want to do it. Of course, our secret weapon was Frances Lucerna, she was the founding principal, she moved the entire thing. Frances, who’s the executive director today, basically, we asked her, and she did it. She put the development team together, and she created a masterful school. JJ: Okay, if you wanna end, any final thoughts or any --? LA: I think you had asked me about Boston. Boston was -- look, I was part of the health and education ministry, as I said before, and mostly the health ministry, right, [01:56:00] the health part of that. And my daughter was very asthmatic, so I spent a lot of my time outside of Young Lords’ activities because I was in the 59 �hospital. She was given the last rites three times, so never expected to live. Thank God for steroids, which were experimental at the time, that saved her life one particular moment when she had almost expired. So, at that point, I had to take a leave absence. Juan talked to me, he says, “You can’t keep this up,” I said, “Okay.” But in that process, I had connected in my work with the Medical Committee for Human Rights, which was the activist group of doctors, and they had a student wing, and so... And I always had this dream from the seminary of becoming a doctor, of working in that area, so one thing [01:57:00] led to another, and I found myself really thinking. I mean I spent all this time in the hospitals really thinking about going to medical school but had no idea on how to do it. Never had seen a Puerto Rican doctor. And so I hooked up with this guy who was a part of the student wing of the Medical Committee for Human Rights, and he said, “You know what, you should apply for Harvard because only these big schools have the kind of money that can support you, and I think it’s possible.” And I said, “And they never had a Puerto Rican, a Puerto Rican, Dominican,” so, I said, “Okay,” and I applied. Now, it turns out that not only did they not have a Puerto Rican, they never had more than two African American students for their four-year program since the start of Harvard Medical School. And at any time since the beginning of that school -- and it’s the oldest medical school in the country -- would you ever find more than two Black people in the building until Martin [01:58:00] Luther King was assassinated. Then the faculty got together, and people started looking at themselves, started realizing that they were part of the same white supremacy structure that had brought upon the 60 �death of one of the most incredible leaders America ever had, and they decided to do something. So, of course, the more liberal, progressive side of that faculty wanted to make sure that we would include, in our admissions, people of color, and eventually, there was a compromise. That, yes, they would admit people of color, but not at the risk of giving up any white seat. So they expanded the class for the first time to include 22 African American young people, 1 Puerto Rican, Dominican, I think there were 3 Mexican Americans, 1 Native American. [01:59:00] I think that was it, and that’s how I got in, you know. JJ: Okay, any other last thought? LA: Oh, this is so much. (laughter) You’re making me think maybe I should write some of this. JJ: Look (inaudible) – END OF VIDEO FILE 61 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a779f73f74eab82cfdaf2def8254b0d5.mp4 da7e1d0eb53e5299a537949b76ff36bd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Luis Acosta vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Luis Acosta, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 10/25/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Acosta_Luis Title A name given to the resource Luis Acosta video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Acosta, Luis Description An account of the resource Oral history of Luis Acosta, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on October 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. In the video, a Latino man in a dark sweater sits in front of a bookshelf facing the camera, while speaking to the interviewer who is off camera. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- (interviewer) Audio Transcription Center (transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-10-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/71dc5d4942a30649dde737a59c70b18f.pdf ea42231700577704d772919e1ff939df PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Cathy Adorno-Centeno Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/24/2012 Biography and Description Cathy Adorno-Centeno is the daughter of Angie Navedo-Rizzo, a Young Lord who also founded “Mothers and Others,” a sub-group within the Young Lords that organized around women’s rights issues. Born in Chicago, Ms. Adorno-Centeno describes growing up surrounded by Young Lords and in a home that was a central gathering for pot luck family dinners for members of the organization and their supporters. Following the brutal death of her Young Lord father Jose “Pancho” Lind, Ms. Adorno-Centeno and her brothers and mother went underground; staying at a rented farm near Tomah, Wisconsin that would become the Young Lords’ Training Camp. Her most vivid childhood memories are of the warmth and support she enjoyed as a member of the Young Lords community. It included block parties, farmworker pickets, demonstrations and social events held near or in the Young Lords headquarters on Wilton and Grace streets. She also spent time at Rico’s Club (which her mother owned) and enjoyed company for the Sunday pasta dinners in her home. Today, Ms. Adorno-Centeno still lives in Chicago, where she is a leader within her community. Each year she organizes Angie’s Fighter’s, a cancer walk in her mother’s memory. She works as a Human Resource Executive. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, let me (inaudible). (laughs) CATHY ADORNO-CENTENO: JJ: Okay. Okay, Cathy, if you can give me your full name, your date of birth, and where you were born. CAC: My birth name or my name now? JJ: Your name now -- either way. Whatever you want to do. CAC: My birth name was Catherine [Marie?] Lind, and my name now is Catherine Adorno-Centeno. JJ: Okay, and who are your parents? CAC: My mom was Angela Rizzo, and my father was José Lind. Oh, I forgot my birthday, I’m sorry. March 8, 1969. JJ: 19 CAC: Born in Chicago -- Cook County. JJ: Okay. CAC: Hey. (laughter) JJ: In Cook County Hospital? CAC: Yes. JJ: Okay, all right. And your brother and sisters, what are they -- CAC: I have four brothers: Joe, Peter, Dominic, and Rico. JJ: What kind of work [00:01:00] are they into (inaudible)? CAC: What kind of work are they into? 1 �JJ: Yeah. CAC: Well, two of them are in cable contracting, so they install all the cable contracting. They fly around different cities and do that. Peter works for Federal Express, and Rico works for Jewel as customer service. JJ: Okay, and what kind of work do you do? CAC: I am in human resources for an insurance brokerage firm. JJ: Okay. And have you been there for a while or -- CAC: Thirteen years. JJ: And what do you do there? CAC: I do everything but insurance, (laughter) so I basically -- I’m office manager, so I have four different offices that I manage; I’m the assistant to the president, so I do whatever he wants; and then I manage all the personnel, and I have about 100 people -- actually, about 110 with all my offices. JJ: One hundred and ten people that you manage? CAC: Mm-hmm. JJ: That is impressive. CAC: Yeah. JJ: [00:02:00] Now your mom, what did she do? CAC: My mom was in property management, and she managed housing for lower income. JJ: And she did that for a few years. Was she also a member of the Young Lords? 2 �CAC: My mom was -- I’m not even quite sure what you’d call her, but she was one of the originals in the Young Lords, and she was a part of that up until she passed away. JJ: Okay, so for many years then until she passed away. CAC: Yes. JJ: So you’re saying original, way back from the youth days? CAC: Original, way back. When it started in Chicago, she was alongside my father, alongside you, and alongside a lot of the other individuals that were trying to help the [00:03:00] community. JJ: Okay, but even before that when we were just kind of just from the community. CAC: Yeah, my mom was probably kind of like a lone ranger. She was different. She wasn’t a minority, but she was the minority in the minority. (laughter) She was second descendant Sicilian, and grew up just, you know -- she wasn’t privileged, but she grew up not needy, not really needing anything. You know, she was the only child in a home with two parents and no other children. But she had a big heart, and just opened up to everybody else, and -JJ: Do you remember your grandparents’ names? CAC: Oh, yeah. JJ: What were they? CAC: Joseph Rizzo and Josephine Rizzo. JJ: And Angie, you said she’s second Sicilian? CAC: Yeah, well, second generation here. JJ: Second generation, okay. [00:04:00] Was she pretty proud of her heritage? 3 �CAC: My mom was very proud of her heritage, but when my mom decided to fight a battle, and stand beside those who she felt she needed to stand up for, and married a Hispanic, a lot of her Sicilian family members shunned her. And she was okay with that. So she was proud of who she was, but she was also proud of whatever she stood for. JJ: And she actually spoke Spanish pretty well. CAC: She was fluent. Completely fluent. All three languages. And if you spoke to her, people always assumed that she was Latin. They didn’t know she was not Latina unless she said it. JJ: And she also went to college, also, right? CAC: She did, but she -- my mom’s history is she dropped out of high school. And she was pregnant at a young age with my dad. [00:05:00] And when my dad passed away, she was I want to say maybe 20 at the time, she was with four children, a widow, no degree. And she ended up going back to school, finished high school, and then got a bachelor’s degree in criminal law. She put herself through Northeastern, as a matter of fact. JJ: Her title, I guess, communications secretary, so she had a lot of friends, right? CAC: Yes. JJ: Who were some of the people that were around? That you knew were Young Lords. CAC: Wow. At the time, I didn’t know they were Young Lords, they were just -- people hear the name Cha Cha José Jimenez, and they’re like, “Oh,” and I’m like, 4 �“Okay, he’s like an uncle.” To me, it was normal. But, goodness, [00:06:00] I’m trying to remember names now. I don’t even remember names. JJ: One or two. CAC: Rory. JJ: Rory, okay. CAC: Slim. JJ: Okay. (laughter) CAC: Have you met Slim? JJ: Yes. (laughter) CAC: God, I’m trying to think back now. I see faces. JJ: What about some of the women? Did you know they were Young Lords? CAC: At the time, I didn’t. I didn’t know they were anything different than our family. JJ: Did you know [Sheila?] was a Young Lord? CAC: My Aunt Sheila? JJ: Yeah. CAC: No, I did not. JJ: You did not know? CAC: No. JJ: Okay. Mary, of course, her sister was one. CAC: Yeah, see? JJ: You didn’t know that. CAC: They were just -- it was normal for us. JJ: What about [Yolanda?]? What about Yolanda? 5 �CAC: At the time, no. I didn’t know. JJ: But later on -- later on. CAC: Later on, yeah. I didn’t know how involved -- I really didn’t even know how involved my mom was. JJ: [Hilda Ortiz?], did you know she was a Young Lord? (laughter) CAC: See? F1: It’s like a grand interrogation. CAC: It is. I didn’t at the time -JJ: [Nona?]? [Angie Chansky?]? CAC: They were all friends, [00:07:00] but they weren’t anything else other than our family and friends. JJ: So they related to you just as friends? CAC: Yeah, we were -- to me, it was just normal to have everybody around us not knowing what they meant to anybody else, but they were just -F1: So what are some of your earliest memories from growing up? CAC: Parties. F1: Yeah? CAC: I remember we had -- in relation to the Young Lord, we lived by Wilton and Grace, and the Young Lords had a storefront that they rent, like an office, next to Wilton Cleaners. JJ: Do you remember the colors or no? 6 �CAC: Purple and gold. (laughter) And I remember the parties there. And every adult had a right to tell us what to do or to reprimand us. (laughter) That’s what I do remember. F1: It takes a village and all that, right? (laughs) CAC: Yeah. So I watched my brothers get in trouble all the time. (laughter) [00:08:00] But I remember. I just remember always people around. That’s what I remember. But it was normal. People weren’t sitting around, you know, with papers or trying to do things, they just made normal conversation over Sunday pasta. It was just normal stuff. JJ: So people would get together like on a Sunday -- CAC: Yeah. JJ: At different people’s homes or -- but usually your mom’s? CAC: My mom’s. My mom’s was pasta Sunday. Up until she passed away, everybody knew pasta Sunday. And mom didn’t invite you, mom didn’t make a big deal out of it, you came, and mom had pasta. JJ: Remember that? Yeah. Yeah, because they said like potluck dinners, but I mean they said (inaudible.) CAC: Yep, but that’s what I remember. And the funny thing is I carry that over to now because I love having people over. And it’s not for anything in particular, it’s just people coming over. F1: That’s great. CAC: [00:09:00] Mm-hmm. 7 �JJ: That’s a good thing. Wilton and Grace. You said they were communicating, but that they were at the office, what other ways did they relate? Or what else do you remember? CAC: I remember boycotting. (laughter) We boycotted Gallo Wines as children. (laughter) And the phrase was, “Boycott” -- I’m trying to remember now -“Boycott Gallo Wine, you gotta organize, you got to unionize. You gotta boycott lettuce, boycott grapes, boycott Gallo Wine.” I remember doing that. JJ: Do you remember singing the song? CAC: Oh, yeah. It was like a -- you know, a kid’s rhyme. We just knew it so well. (laughter) F1: This is a good rhyme to know. CAC: Yeah. JJ: [00:10:00] That means you were a Marxist. CAC: We were activists and didn’t even know it. JJ: Had the pickets, had the pickets (inaudible) ’cause on Saturday morning, at the stores, you mean you were there? CAC: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. We would have them take out all the grapes and all the lettuce with the farm workers? CAC: Yeah, but we didn’t know. JJ: There was a group called the farm workers we were working with at that time. CAC: Yeah, but it was normal. It wasn’t anything where nobody wanted to not go. Mom’s going, “Yay, let’s go.” (laughter) 8 �JJ: So what you’re saying by normal, people didn’t get dressed up in soldier outfits or anything like that? CAC: No. It was normal. It was as if you’re taking your kid to the park or to the zoo. We just got up and we did it. JJ: And, in fact, is that most of like the parties and everything? Was it just -- CAC: It was all normal. There was nothing that stood out. We learned later on in life that we hid away at a farm. [00:11:00] And my mom said it was a trip, (laughter) so we all went on a trip. But it was just normal. That’s why I never knew the impact of anybody who was surrounding us, what they were to anybody else ’cause with us it was just normal. F1: When did you find out that this was part of a larger story? CAC: You know, I don’t really know if it’s even hit how large. I watched my mom throughout the years when she would be interviewed, or she would meet with you, and you guys would have all these pictures and go through documents, but it was a part of her stuff, so I never got involved with it. But I think the first time it really hit me was when DePaul University was doing a play, and there were actors portraying my mom, and my dad, and their friends for the first time. And that’s when it was really like, [00:12:00] “Wow, okay, we’re part of something here.” (laughs) Didn’t know it, but, yeah, we’re part of something. But at the time, we didn’t know it. F1: Did that change at all for you -- how you thought about those memories looking back? 9 �CAC: Yeah. I mean I’m always very quiet about them. I don’t talk about them to other people very often. But to know that my parents and my family -- my family -were a part of something, that’s big. That’s big because they were doing something that people don’t do anymore -- or they do it in other countries, not necessarily here, and they were doing it over here. And to start out as a young unorganized group of kids and have these thoughts and these dreams and you turn it in to something, yeah, it’s amazing. JJ: There’s no lighting (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, I’m gonna turn on another light. [00:13:00] (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so you mentioned that you were in a farm on a trip, that your mom took you on a trip. That was like a training school, we called it, at that time. So what do you remember? I mean how did it look? How did the farm look? CAC: You know, I don’t know other than we were told when we got older that we had gone on this trip, and we found out why we had gone on this trip. JJ: And what did you find out? CAC: What did we find out? JJ: Yeah. CAC: That we were underground. (laughter) That’s what I was told, that we were underground. JJ: And what did that mean? CAC: That meant that there was somebody that was being sought after, and we all left. (laughter) 10 �F1: On a trip to a farm? CAC: Yeah, we all went on a trip. And it was just a trip, though. I mean it wasn’t anything -- there wasn’t anything [00:14:00] bad. You know, as a child, you don’t necessarily remember everything, so nothing stood out. JJ: Do you remember that you stayed more than one day? CAC: I don’t remember. JJ: Or like a year? (laughter) F1: It was a long vacation. CAC: Maybe that’s why I don’t remember. JJ: That’s good that you don’t remember. CAC: Whatever it was, it was just something that was normal and we were surrounded by people that took care of us. JJ: Oh, so there were other people there? CAC: I’m assuming that there were other people there. JJ: Okay, you don’t remember anything else. CAC: No. (laughs) JJ: We hope you don’t recall any (inaudible). CAC: I don’t recall anything. JJ: Okay, but you did go to that trip? CAC: Yeah. JJ: You did take that trip. Okay. So we come back from the trip, and we’re back in Chicago, and do you remember anything then? ’Cause there was another house in there. 11 �CAC: We went on two trips? (laughs) JJ: [00:15:00] No, now we’re on Wilton and Grace. CAC: Now we’re Wilton and Grace, okay. JJ: What do you remember from Wilton and Grace? CAC: God, what do I remember? I remember playing out on the streets all the time, and all these adults were always around us. Nobody bothered us, but the adults were always there. We were safe. It was so normal. Nothing ever stood out that -- you know, like, “Hmm.” Nothing stood out like that. JJ: But there were a lot of adults that you knew? CAC: There were always adults that knew us, and they were like our aunts and uncles. We just grew up with them. JJ: I mean a lot of adults or -- CAC: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And then the Young Lords had an office on the corner? CAC: They did. They had the office next to Wilton Cleaners. JJ: Okay. Was your mother there at all at the office? Did she work there? CAC: I’m assuming because I don’t know why else we would have moved just [00:16:00] around the corner from there. JJ: Other people, like myself, I lived on this corner. [Yolanda?] -- CAC: Yeah, I mean everybody was there. JJ: So everybody was living there. CAC: Yeah. I don’t know where everybody lived, but everybody was there. Everybody was there. 12 �JJ: Okay. So here you’re walking down the street and there’s a bunch of people that you know and it’s like your family. CAC: Yeah. On the corner and on the -JJ: Your whole family’s living there. CAC: All the families are living there, and right on the wall, on the corner of Wilton and Grace, apparently there was a gang at the time, the Eagles. They didn’t bother us, us kids played there, but it was -- it wasn’t graffiti at the time. JJ: No, they cleaned the graffiti. Yeah, they cleaned the graffiti, that was the agreement. But it used to be a vicious neighborhood, but it was cleaned up by the Young Lords and the Eagles. CAC: When we were there, [00:17:00] I never -- I don’t have any memories of anything being vicious there. JJ: Anything vicious. By that time, it was okay. And the kids were playing in the street again. CAC: Kids were playing like nothing. There’s pictures -JJ: You didn’t know it was a drug corner before? CAC: No. (laughter) No. Thanks, mom. No, I would’ve had no idea. JJ: Thanks to your mom. Thanks to your mom and her friends that they cleaned it up. CAC: Wouldn’t have any idea. JJ: They cleaned it up. So you don’t remember the campaign, [alderman?] campaign, at all? Or hearing about it or anything? CAC: I remember hearing about it, but I don’t remember what any of it entailed. 13 �JJ: What did you hear? CAC: Uptown. That’s when things started happening in Uptown. That’s what I do remember. There was a legal aid office on the second floor of one of the buildings on Broadway in Uptown, and I remember going there with my mom a lot, but I don’t know what it was for. F1: [00:18:00] I want to know what some of your other memories are from that time. I mean if you were to list some of your fondest childhood memories from that area -- you mentioned the parties, but what else stands out in your mind? CAC: What else stands out? F1: It doesn’t have to be politically significant stuff, just what stands out in your mind as being especially wonderful? CAC: My mom always made something special. You know, nowadays, the kids have all these processed treats and things. We didn’t have money, we were on food stamps at the time. And my mom, I remember her making -- she called it elephant ears with flour tortillas. She would fry them and put brown sugar and sugar. It was the little things that -- we just thought it was the biggest thing in the world. And it wasn’t even a big deal that we were on stamps, but I remember my mom being happy when we weren’t [00:19:00] on stamps anymore because she achieved something. She did it. JJ: So you say on stamps, food stamps? CAC: We were on food stamps for whatever period of time. As long as we remember having the block of cheese and the peanut butter. (laughs) F1: Right. The giant block of cheese, the giant peanut butter. (laughter) 14 �CAC: And the peanut butter that just wasn’t sweet. F1: Right. (laughs) CAC: But, you know, and she was proud. It wasn’t anything to her. But it was just so normal. I’m trying to remember what else. It was just a normal childhood. Being surrounded by so much, I don’t know how we grew up with it being -- everybody else says it was a lot, but it was nothing for us. It was nothing. We just went along, and we saw everybody, and yeah. JJ: When do you start remembering at Rico’s? [00:20:00] When you moved this way? Because you lived up north, too. CAC: We lived up north. When we were up north -JJ: With [Julio?]. CAC: Yeah. My mom was still involved with everything. She wasn’t involved as much, that’s when she was going to -- she was working, going to school, taking care of the family. But, yeah, every so often, I knew that you guys got together. I don’t even want to say she was quiet ’cause she wasn’t hiding anything, but it just wasn’t anything that was so profound like -- you know, it was normal. JJ: So you knew she was a main person in the group? CAC: I knew she was in the group, but I didn’t know she was a main person in the group ’cause she was mom. I didn’t know you were a main person, (laughs) or the main person in the group. You were Cha Cha. JJ: Right. Okay. CAC: So to grow up in the [00:21:00] middle of so much, you guys did a good job of not making a big deal out of it. 15 �JJ: Okay. So you don’t remember any people going to jail or anything like that? CAC: No because mom didn’t put that stuff there. JJ: She didn’t put that to you. Okay. Not a lot of people went, but (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, she didn’t make a big deal out of anything. Even when our dad died, I mean she didn’t talk about what he had done. I actually learned a lot about what he had done through you. F1: Which was what? CAC: That he was -- my dad was -- I’m trying to remember the word that you used. My dad was kind of brave, he was stand-up, a stand-up guy. And I’m going to use the word soldier, but you may not have used soldier. JJ: Security. CAC: Security because he stood up. He stood up to whatever it was. And he wasn’t a big guy, he was a little guy, but he just -- I remember stories [00:22:00] from you about that. JJ: Yeah, he was like security. And he was also from the youth. We knew each other from when we were just hanging out. You know, we had social clubs at the time. Fact, that’s why they were called clubs. So up north -- ’cause you remember the socials, you said, right? Friday night. And by that time, Julio was -- CAC: Yeah, my stepdad was already -JJ: He had a number, what was he 56 or something? He had a t-shirt, in the back with a number. CAC: I don’t remember what the number was. 16 �JJ: Okay, but it was a number. Fifty-one or something. Something like that. So they moved up north. CAC: Yeah, we moved to Rogers Park. And I think, at that point in time, my mom probably took a step back just because we were all in school, you know, grammar school and kind of growing up. And mom probably took a more [00:23:00] silent -- and I don’t know if it was because of her husband at the time, but she was kind of, you know, a little bit more quiet about it, but she still did whatever she was doing, but she didn’t talk about what she was doing. JJ: Right. Well, there was a distance, too. I think at that time I was in Michigan, so the group wasn’t functioning completely at that time. CAC: But whenever you heard the Young Lords, there was a sparkle in -- and she was proud of it. She was proud of all of that. I remember running into one of the gentleman who was part of the Young Lords, and he told me -JJ: Hold on one sec. (break in audio) CAC: -- how much my mom was involved with everybody. And I think it was at the play, the first play that we saw, one of the gentleman there said, “Do you know when you were a little kid, I lived with you for a while?” I said, “What?” (laughs) He said, “Yeah, your mom took me in. Your mom took care of me.” [00:24:00] But for whatever reason, it was just, you know, everything seemed -- nobody was an outsider. JJ: So this person told you that he lived there? CAC: Yeah. 17 �JJ: Okay. And that makes sense because (inaudible) would let -- you guys would be in the back of the house, and the front of the house we kind of hung out. CAC: So we didn’t see -- he said, “I remember your mom always cooking.” JJ: But only a few people hung out there, that he trusted. CAC: The one who said it to me was Rory. JJ: Oh, yeah. So Rory stayed at your house. CAC: I just thought, “Wow, how cool.” And then I remember asking my mom, “Mom, did Rory come with us?” And she was like, “Yeah.” She just never -- she didn’t talk about -JJ: We used to hang out in the front of the house because Angie knew the (inaudible) -- [00:25:00] this is your interview and I’m explaining. CAC: That’s okay. JJ: But just so that you’re aware. But Angie was kind of the leader of the women in the group, and so we had socials. CAC: Oh. Then that goes to the story of the block party because I had heard about that. I didn’t know it at the time, but -JJ: What did you hear? CAC: Apparently there was gonna be a block party, and the police had come and said that they could not congregate and have a block party. I was told that my mom had all the moms come out with their strollers and stood in the middle of the street. The little rebel that she was. (laughter) JJ: Right. The police had told ’em-- “Guys, you cannot get -- you better not or we’ll arrest you.” 18 �CAC: So the moms went out in the middle of the street with the kids. (laughter) JJ: Yeah, that was great. And, in fact, they won an Emmy (inaudible), that’s true. The famous Studs Turkel won an Emmy for describing that (inaudible). CAC: Really? JJ: Yeah. He taped the event. CAC: Wow, [00:26:00] I didn’t know that. JJ: Yeah, somewhere there’s an Emmy (inaudible). CAC: Oh, I would love to see that. I had no idea. JJ: Yeah because he was interviewing people right there. He might have interviewed Angie. F1: I think it’s in the Chicago Historical Society, actually. CAC: Really? F1: So if you were to go and look for it, you should be able to find it. CAC: Uh-oh. They’re watching the Bears game over there. (laughter) Another thing I remember was mom had a paper weight. And it was a clear -- ever since we were children. And it was a little paper weight that had like a rainbow of colors, and mom got this paper weight from -- was it a school? The Young Lords had taken over a building, and mom stole (laughter) a paper weight. JJ: From McCormick Center, you mean? CAC: I don’t know. I don’t remember where it was at, but mom -- and the history around that was that, you know, you guys had taken over this place [00:27:00] and weren’t leaving. You weren’t leaving the premises, and from there, mom 19 �took someone’s paper weight from their desk, (laughed) and it stayed in our house. JJ: It was a souvenir. F1: Do you still have it? CAC: I think one of my brothers have it. F1: Yeah? That’s good. So it stayed in the family. (laughs) CAC: It did, but every time we saw something like that, it was just like -- you know, at the time, you -- “What is this?” But as you grow older and you think, “Wow. Mom still has this thing.” (laughter) JJ: So she never explained anything about the Young Lords or you learned it from other people? CAC: We learned from other people. She just didn’t -- and I don’t know why she didn’t. I honestly think that because of everything that everyone else had gone through when they had this fight, and we had lost our dad very young, that she felt that she didn’t want for her children to have anything held against them or to -- she was afraid of losing somebody else. So I think she [00:28:00] kept us enough away from it so that we weren’t directly in it, but yet, it surrounded us. We weren’t active in it, I should say. F1: Where do you fall in the birth order with your brothers? CAC: I’m in the middle. F1: Okay. CAC: Smack dab in the middle. (laughter) 20 �JJ: So now what else do you remember about up north? ’Cause there were parties at your house. CAC: Yeah, there were always parties. There were always -JJ: What else do you remember up there? What do you remember about Julio? CAC: Can we not talk about him? JJ: Yeah, sure. Juan or no? CAC: Oh, yes. Yes. JJ: Okay. CAC: I’m sorry. F1: Not at all. Use the right refuse anything you want. JJ: This is your interview. CAC: Okay. Oh, you make me cry. Okay. [00:29:00] Yeah, Juan, I loved Juan. I loved Juan. My mom was married three times, and three times she was a widow. F1: That’s a lot to go through. CAC: Yeah. Yeah. And her third husband, Juan Navedo, was wonderful. I couldn’t have asked for a better father, step-father -- I didn’t know my father, so -- but Juan was just absolutely incredible. He loved the Young Lords. (laughter) JJ: So you had Rico’s, right? That was -- Juan was -- CAC: Rico’s was a bar -- my mom and Juan, they owned a bar on North Avenue. JJ: Can you describe what that is and how they started it? CAC: I don’t even know where they got that idea from. They wanted a place for -- oh, I know how it got started because everybody used to hang out on Rosemont at the 21 �house. All the couples were there, we were surrounded by Albert and Nelly, and we were just surrounded by all these different people all of the time. And [00:30:00] they had talked about doing something a little bit bigger, a little bit grander scale. And they purchased a building that had a storefront and they created a bar out of it. And every weekend, their friends were at the bar. So the parties we had in the kitchen then came over into the bar. F1: And where was Rico’s? CAC: It was on North Avenue. North Avenue and [Talman?], I think it was. JJ: So you have Angie who was really running the office at Wilton and Grace, and we have the Friday night socials, and then we had the kitchen parties at your house, and then now you gotta club called Rico’s. CAC: Now we got a club called Rico’s. JJ: And is it the same people, basically, or -- CAC: It was always the same people. Rico’s always felt like family. And even though new people would come in, they would always keep coming back ’cause it was just like family. You knew everybody. Everybody was just good, everybody was safe, and it wasn’t -- there were no problems. It was good. JJ: And then she had the Sunday -- CAC: [00:31:00] Her Sunday pasta. Mom worked full-time with property management, did the bar, and then every Sunday was still her pasta. JJ: Okay. And so these same people keep going? CAC: The same people. JJ: They keep coming. They’re still around. 22 �CAC: Yeah. JJ: So they haven’t left? CAC: No. JJ: Basically. And you didn’t know they were Young Lords? CAC: No. JJ: (laughs) Okay. CAC: They were just our family. Didn’t know -JJ: She kinda kept ’em together a little bit, Angie did? CAC: Yeah, she did. Not until I think when my mom -- after my mom was diagnosed with cancer -- did I realize the full impact of who she was with everybody because that’s when people started talking about -- because everybody didn’t talk about it. But people started talking more and more about the Young Lords, and about what mom did, and about who this was after she was sick. And that’s when it was a full impact of, “This was my life?” (laughs) F1: All kinds of stuff, yeah. JJ: [00:32:00] Where did you go to school? CAC: Grammar school? F1: All the way through. CAC: I remember going to Le Moyne School by Wilton and Grace, and then when we moved to Rogers Park, I went to Stone Academy. JJ: What do you remember of Le Moyne? CAC: Le Moyne? I remember the charter song. I was in kindergarten, but I remember the charter song. And there were all of our friends, and it was a mix of people. It 23 �was every nationality. And when we moved to Rogers Park, we were the minority in the school. We were the minority in the neighborhood. And it was really hard when we first moved in because, you know, I wasn’t blonde and didn’t have the green eyes, and I didn’t have the straight hair, and I was different. But then little by little through the years, it changed, and a lot of other people started moving in the neighborhood. [00:33:00] I felt like we were surrounded by a mix of people, again, which was good. And then I went to St. Gregory High School, and that was it. JJ: What was St. Gregory’s? CAC: St. Gregory’s was, of course, a Catholic high school, but it was a mix of boys and girls. It was a very small school. We probably had maybe 400 kids in the whole school, so we were never in a school that had, you know, 1,000 kids. We were always kinda kept in smaller groups of people. I was a junior class president. That had to be my mom. I don’t know. (laughter) I haven’t figure that out yet. I don’t know how I did that one. (laughs) And that was it. Moved out, got married. JJ: So junior class president. How did that come about (inaudible)? CAC: I don’t know how that came about. I don’t know what it was. I like [00:34:00] being in the middle of everything, but I don’t like being in the front of it. Even to this day, I don’t mind doing whatever it is, but I don’t wanna be in the front. When I do training or I talk to my employees, I’ll do that, but I don’t want to be the first person in the receiving line for anything. F1: Do you know why? 24 �CAC: I think because my mom was in the forefront. I’m not my mom, and I don’t think I’m as strong as my mom was. She stood up for something more than herself, and while I’ll stand up for something, I don’t know -- not to the same measures that my mom would have done. JJ: You growing up, what about your brothers and that? How are they growing up? Are they doing okay or having problems? CAC: No, no. Everybody’s good. You know, as teenagers -JJ: I mean growing up, [00:35:00] as teenagers. CAC: As teenagers, everybody goes through their own growing pains. And my mom was not going to lose her children to the streets. She refused. She fought it. I had one brother who declared one day that he was in a gang, and mom showed him otherwise, and he wasn’t in a gang anymore. (laughs) JJ: What do you mean she showed him otherwise? F1: How did she do that? CAC: You know, I just think she stayed on him. She was involved. She went to the schools, she did everything she could do. If you were at this corner and there was a problem, mom was there. I remember as a young adult, one of my brothers was walking home in Rogers Park. And the neighborhood had just started changing, and there were some gangs that were coming in. And they jumped him, and he went inside, and my mom was there with Juan, and Myrna, Hector, Albert, Nelly, and all of the adults went outside [00:36:00] to where these guys were at, and my mom threatened them. She didn’t play when it came to her kids. So I think that helped keep her children -- you know, “You don’t need that. 25 �You’ve got family, you’ve got love, you’ve got everything you need, you don’t need anything.” So, thankfully -- knock on wood, there’s no wood right here -but everybody was okay. JJ: So she was able to stay on top of ’em and that’s what -- CAC: Yeah, she was always on top of it. Always. And it made me think about that with my son. My son is 21 now, and I thought, “It’s one child. I’m not gonna lose him.” JJ: What’s your son’s name? CAC: Alberto. And when he was born, I thought, “Okay, my son has two strikes against him.” JJ: And what’s your husband’s name? I didn’t get your husband’s name. CAC: My husband’s David. I’m sorry. I thought my son had two strikes against him. One, he was a boy; and two, he was Hispanic. And it’s not a good way to think about your [00:37:00] child, but that was my thought. And I was gonna do whatever I could for him not to be a statistic in anything. And I think he’s good. He goes to school part-time --college, and he works part-time, and he’s a very -he’s very honest. Tells me things that you don’t think a son should tell a mother. (laughs) F1: That’s good. CAC: Yeah, he’s very honest. He’ll still ask permission for things. If he’s not gonna come home, he still calls. JJ: You mentioned my sister, Myrna. So were there other relatives that you stayed close to or -- I mean friends or -- I mean was there like a core group of people? 26 �CAC: There was. The core group of people that I remember more -- this was in my teenage to my later -- was Cha Cha’s sister, Myrna, her husband, Hector, and their friends, Albert and Nelly -- [00:38:00] Lucas -- who was [Yoeli’s?] family. And Yoeli is Cha Cha’s ex-wife. And we grew up with them in a part of everything that we did. Now that my mom passed away, I’ve grown a little bit away from that. Not as close with it. I think I realized that my mom was a lot of the center of the glue that held things together and people stayed together. And after she passed, there were a lot of things that started out coming from people that I just didn’t want to be part of. But while she was alive, it just -- she was really the center of all of it. JJ: So now you have like a different grouping of friends? CAC: I do. JJ: (inaudible). CAC: I do. I have my own group of friends that helped me actually through my mom’s passing. When my mom was diagnosed with brain cancer, she was married [00:39:00] to Juan, and Juan hit a very depressive state. They told us that my mom had six months to live, and several months into her treatments and after her surgery, he committed suicide. And it was very devastating. He was the person for her. And suddenly, I was -- even though I was a grown up, I was thrown into an adult position where I had to become a person for her. F1: Sure. How old were you at that time? CAC: I was 35, maybe. Right before she was diagnosed, I was recently engaged and I was planning a wedding. And then this happened. It was like a week later when 27 �she was diagnosed with this. She was always my confidant. I shared everything. Even though I was grown, living in my own [00:40:00] place, raising my son, I would still go and spend weekends by her. And I lived in the same city, but I wanted my mom, so I would always be with her. So suddenly when I didn’t have that confidant because I didn’t want to share my emotions with her, I had a close group of friends that supported me kind of the way my mom supported me. And to this day, my friends are just -- they’re wonderful. They’ll do my cancer walks with me in my mom’s name. JJ: You organize the cancer walks, right? CAC: Yeah. JJ: I haven’t been to any of them. I’m sorry. But how are they like? CAC: We’re surrounded by people who either knew my mom, or didn’t know her, but were moved by her through me. JJ: [00:41:00] And (inaudible) your mission, I guess. CAC: But were moved by her through me. When she was sick, I started sending out weekly updates to people ’cause it was my way of sharing what was going on -“Don’t call the house, don’t talk to mom, let me just tell you what it is, and let me get it out.” And it started from there. And my mom and I had gone on a cancer walk before she was sick, and she loved it so much. We did it for my boss at the time, his four-year-old daughter was diagnosed with cancer, and we did the cancer walk for her. So when the next year came around, and mom had been diagnosed, I changed it and we created a group called Angie’s Fighters. So it was all of her people that supported her. And mom didn’t want to be the center 28 �of attention. She argued it, she did not want it. But when she was there, it was good. We all had shirts that had her picture on there, and just -- we supported her. And then it kinda grew from there. People who I met through the years learned about what I did or I told them what I was doing, [00:42:00] and they would tell me, “I’m so sorry I never met your mom, but I’m gonna do this. I want to be a part of this with you.” And they’re still around which is great. JJ: So that’s still done every year? CAC: Yeah. JJ: I just missed it again, right? When is it? CAC: Yeah, we just did another one. JJ: When is it done? CAC: It’s normally in May. For several years, we did it through the American Cancer Society, and this last year we did it through the Brain Tumor Association because her cancer was specific to brain tumor. JJ: Is it like first week of May? CAC: They change it. This past year they changed it to like two weeks early. JJ: But they usually do it in May? CAC: Normally do it the middle of May, yeah. And we all wear our shirts, and rah, rah, and it’s great. JJ: So tell me a little bit more about Rico’s. CAC: [00:43:00] Rico’s? JJ: Yeah. Did you go to the club? 29 �CAC: Oh, I was always there. That was my club. (laughter) But I loved it because at the time I could go out and have a good time, but I was in a safe place. Everybody knew me, I was Angie and Juan’s daughter, and I could have a drink and go upstairs and go to sleep. JJ: Who were some of the people that used to go frequently that you recall? CAC: Oh, wow. All of the normal people. I mean all the people I grew up with. But then I remember one of the best parties we ever had there was with some of your family -- [Calisto?]? JJ: Oh, yeah, Calisto. CAC: Yes. And all of your family was there, and we had a party with them. It was called [Pisces?] Party, (laughter) and it was a disco theme. And one of your family members had this big afro, they wore one of the wigs. (laughter) Just this big afro. JJ: Okay, so they would joke around a lot? They were friendly. CAC: Yeah. There was always a theme, there was always something going on, but it was a safe place. [00:44:00] You were part of something when you were there. You know, when you watch Cheers, when Norm walks in, everybody yells, “Norm!” It was kind of like that. (laughter) Everybody knew who you were and nobody bothered you. So I would even bring my girlfriends there because as women, young women, who are single, you don’t necessarily want to go out to a club that you don’t know, but at Rico’s, you were safe. You could dance with all the uncles, you can have a good time, and you knew that you were okay. You didn’t have to think or worry about anything, and that’s what Rico’s was. 30 �JJ: And you say uncles meaning Angie’s close friends? CAC: All the extended -- yeah. Remember, my mom had no brothers. JJ: The extended Young Lords? (laughs) CAC: Yeah, my mom had no brothers or sisters, so all these aunts and uncles were people just that I grew up with. It wasn’t the blood, it was who they were in my life, and it’s still like that. JJ: I mean they weren’t all Young Lords. I mean (inaudible). CAC: No, they were just all her -JJ: But they were either Young Lords, or friends, or -- CAC: All her friends. JJ: All her friends, [00:45:00] Angie’s friends. CAC: Yeah. We didn’t grow up with a lot of blood family because the Sicilian family had shunned my mom other than her parents. So our family, our growing up was filled with aunts, and uncles, and cousins that were friends at one point in time and just became part of our normal day to day. JJ: But Angie did go to the Sicilian festivals, didn’t she? CAC: Oh, yeah. We did that. It’s mixed emotions. We have this annual festival we go to, and we pray to the Virgin Mary. When we were going on as children, we were the only minorities, so us kids stuck out, you know? You had all the salt and you had like five peppers (laughter) ’cause there were five of us, and we stuck out. We stuck out. And we were different, and we didn’t know why we were different, we didn’t know what was wrong. But my mom never -- [00:46:00] she never told us that her family -- she had family members (audio cuts out; inaudible). They 31 �didn’t acknowledge her, we didn’t know that. Now I see that and it bothers me, you know, that they treated my mother like this. But she never allowed it to affect what she was doing. She made some choices and she stuck by her choices. We didn’t miss anything by not having them involved in our lives ’cause we were raised with so much more, and it was real. You know, when you have a family member, you love your family member because they’re your family member. But when you grow up with friends that become family, it’s because this relationship has grown and just -- it’s beyond the blood. And that’s really what happened to all of our relationships. F1: Well, I have a question. So do you share these memories, this context, [00:47:00] with your son? What do you tell him about your mom, and her work, and the Young Lords? CAC: I do. I always tell him that he was no idea what amazing -- what an amazing grandmother he had. I can’t share a lot of stories about my dad because I don’t remember my dad. He died when I was two, so I only can do a lot of the hearsay, but I share -- I tell him the things that she fought for, the things that he doesn’t realize, he doesn’t know. All people, as they’re coming into their own, start having their own feelings and try to stay away from things that mom likes or mom wants ’cause I did that. You know, mom was involved with this, I’m doing this. And that’s what my son does now. He has not yet grown into the appreciation of what his grandmother has done other than it was normal for him because that was his grandma. Grandma loved him beyond anything, and he can’t imagine she was anything to anybody else because that was his grandma. 32 �JJ: [00:48:00] I know (inaudible) something else, but she did certain things, you said, that you tell your son? CAC: For me, I always felt -- and this was only in my head, though -- I felt that the Young Lords were political, in my mind, because I didn’t know what all of it stood for. All I knew was mom was involved with this, but mom didn’t include us. JJ: So political meaning what? What do you mean? CAC: As a kid, I just thought political. And I lumped everything in political. I lumped Republican, Young Lord, Democrat, I lumped it all together just because mom was fighting for something. JJ: And we did have a alderman campaign. We did things. CAC: So maybe that’s what -- but I just always thought political. JJ: Wilton and Grace was the alderman campaign. CAC: Okay, so that’s probably how -- I never thought of that’s how I related them, but I just always related that being political, [00:49:00] so I stayed away from anything political. I didn’t voice my opinions, I didn’t, you know -JJ: Said, “I’m not voting now.” (laughs) CAC: Well, I voted, but I always kept it to myself. And now my son pushes me. He pushes my boundaries because now I’ll stand up. I’ve got Obama on my refrigerator, (laughter) and I have a sticker called, “Not a Republican,” on my refrigerator, (laughter) and me and my son fight, but we do it quietly ’cause he’ll put a magnet over my “Not a,” and it says, “Republican,” and I always have to move it. So we’re fighting. “Not a” -F1: Just antagonizing. (laughs) 33 �CAC: Yes, he does it on purpose to me, but I’m not political. And I always try to remind him of politics is something very personal, and that’s not something you really ask about or you bring up to somebody else because my son is ready to battle when it comes to his feeling of politics. But it’s opposite of me, so we don’t go there. He doesn’t understand it just yet. F1: [00:50:00] It sounds like his politics might also be different than his grandmother’s. (laughs) CAC: Yeah, very, very. ’Cause I even tell him, “If your grandma were here today, you just” -- You know, Nona -- “If Nona were here today, you just don’t know.” But he has to grow into his own. My mom never pushed it on us, so just like that, I’m allowing him -- I’ll answer the questions, or if he says -- I remember one time he said, “Mom, I want to go and do” -- he wanted to go do the walk for Mexicans. I forget what the rallies were here in Chicago several years ago. And I allowed him to miss school to go attend the rally. And I think it was for the Mexicans that weren’t citizens and wanted to be able to work, and I allowed him to do it. I want him to understand it. I want him to understand why -- you know, what democracy really is and what freedom really is because when you’re born into it, you don’t know it. [00:51:00] It just becomes so normal, you know, and that’s what happened with me. It became so normal that I didn’t realize everything else that was going on around me. JJ: And, in fact, your husband is of Mexican descent? CAC: My husband is Puerto Rican -- well, this is my second marriage. My first husband was Mexican, my second husband is Guatemalan and Puerto Rican. 34 �JJ: Oh, Guatemalan. Okay. CAC: Yeah. JJ: So these demonstrations had to do with not all Guatemalans, but some Guatemalans and some Mexicans. CAC: Yeah, but he wanted to do it, so I support it. As long as he truly believes in something, and he can tell me why, I’ll support it because that’s the only way he’s gonna realize for himself who he is or what he wants. He needs to find it for himself. [00:52:00] Like I said, I don’t talk politics even in my house just because I want my son to have his own vision. And he has a vision, and I have to steer him a little bit, (laughter) but I’m trying to do it quietly. F1: Start with the magnets. CAC: Yes. (laughter) He doesn’t realize all of it. JJ: Like you said, you still had people to get together, your peer groups. How do you develop in terms of your peer groups? CAC: How do I? JJ: Yeah. Maybe that’s -- CAC: The funny part -- I’ve never been a leader. JJ: I mean [relax?]. CAC: Well, I’ve never been a leader. You know, I always wanted to be in the background. And I took a lead role with my group of friends, I have about 20 female friends, and I took the lead with these women, and we get together on a monthly basis. JJ: Who are some of these people? Just the first names. 35 �CAC: Goodness. [00:53:00] I have [Sonia?], Jenny, Gigi -- it’s a mix of people. Somebody from New York, somebody -- you know, I have one girlfriend who is of Irish descent, but you meet her and you think -- she’s like my mom. You would think she’s Latin (laughter) completely. And she speaks it, and she’s married to it, you know what I mean? So it’s just a mix of people. And it’s probably the only place I take the lead and I feel comfortable. I’ll organize it, I’ll plan things for just us as women to go out and have one night a month where we can talk. Go out for dinner, have a few drinks, and talk about anything we want to talk about, do whatever we want to do, and that’s our let down our hair day. But then we also plan things for families. So I kinda feel like my mom right now. (laughter) We do, we plan things for families. I include the kids. F1: That’s great. CAC: Yeah. JJ: So that’s your group right now? CAC: That’s [00:54:00] my group. JJ: What other things do you remember about Rico’s? CAC: About Rico’s? JJ: Yeah, that was kind of important. That was a phase during that time. CAC: There was a phase, but do you know what? I wasn’t living there. So when I would go over there, I would see -- I remember my mom having a box of photos of all these Young Lords. All these different things, all these photos of different -JJ: What happened to that box? CAC: My brother, Joe, has it in Florida. 36 �JJ: Okay, ’cause we might (inaudible) -- CAC: I can ask him. We gave it to Joe because Joe was the oldest and Joe remembered more than we did. JJ: No, no, we just want to see if we can make the copies. F1: If Joe would be willing to scan copies. CAC: Okay, let me ask him. F1: Yeah, definitely ask him. CAC: He’s the one that we decided to give the whole box to just because he remembered more of the names, he remembered -JJ: Yeah, we just want a copy. CAC: I don’t know [00:55:00] if he still has it, but I remember he had a Young Lords’ beret. He remembered all that ’cause he remembered my dad. We don’t remember my dad at all. But I will ask him. JJ: Do you remember anything? I mean what does he tell you about him? CAC: He doesn’t talk -- Joe is the quiet one. I think Joe felt the impact most with my dad dying young. He was the oldest, and suddenly his dad, his friend, wasn’t there anymore. So I think he just felt that impact. And he’s probably the one who least -- you don’t see him around, he moved to Florida, but he didn’t -- as we were growing up involved in all the parties and stuff and such, he didn’t participate in any of that ’cause I think he might have related to my dad passing away not necessarily knowing everything around why he passed away -- he relates that to -JJ: [00:56:00] He never mentioned -- I know it’s kind of difficult to talk about. 37 �CAC: No, that’s okay. JJ: He never mentioned what happened? CAC: I didn’t know until I was older what happened. JJ: So what did you know? CAC: That my father was walking along the street with my uncle and my aunt -- or my uncle’s girlfriend, I don’t know what she was at the time -- and they were passing by a pool hall -- and this is was my uncle who relayed this information to us who was there. And the gentlemen came out of the pool hall and were taunting my dad and my uncle. My dad was dark-skinned Puerto Rican, and they were taunting racial slurs to them. And the men weren’t saying anything, but my aunt turned around and made a response to them, and then a fight broke out. They came out. And, apparently, the police arrived in a paddy wagon, and threw my uncle in the paddy wagon. [00:57:00] My uncle was older than my dad, my dad was the baby. And they allowed a gentleman or a few gentleman to beat my father. The police allowed this while my uncle was in the paddy wagon. And my uncle, before he passed away, what he said was, “You have no idea what it felt like.” He said, “I felt like I was an animal locked in a cage, and here they are beating my brother, and there’s nothing that I could do.” And then when it was over, my father, he died as a result of the injuries. They threw my father, his body, in there with my uncle. He was still alive at the time, but they threw him in there with my uncle. And it affected my uncle because my uncle never recovered from that. He never grew up. He was always in the park, he was always at 38 �Humboldt Park. I don’t know if he did drugs, I think he drank, but I don’t know if he did drugs. JJ: I think he drank. CAC: He never grew up. JJ: [00:58:00] So he hung around Humboldt Park, you mean? CAC: Yeah, he was just -JJ: Was he homeless? CAC: I think kinda homeless and then bounced around. But he said that his father never forgave him for my father’s death, so he carried that with him until he died. He never passed it, kind of like it froze in that time. JJ: To add to that so that you know -- and we were going to court because we were trying to get the people arrested and put in court, and Angie was leading a lot that. And the courtrooms were full. The Young Lords were filling up the court rooms and that. But nothing happened. No one was arrested that -- CAC: Nobody was convicted. JJ: So you heard some of that, too? CAC: I did hear that. I remember reading an article -- [00:59:00] and I think this was probably when I first started asking questions. There was an article that was published, and it mentioned my dad -- his beating, his death -- and I remember so clearly and they said my mom was away at a women’s conference in Canada at the time. She had four children, not a high school graduate, she was at a conference, and she received a phone call that she needed to come home. And the article said that she arrived home, she was at the airport, and Hilda was 39 �there, and Hilda had to tell my mom what happened to my dad, that my dad didn’t make it. And he ended up passing away the day before my brother’s third birthday. JJ: I know it was right after that you went to that school. CAC: Yeah, see? JJ: (inaudible) school, but she decided to go, (inaudible). CAC: My dog’s knocking on the door. Do you hear her? (laughter) [01:00:00] But, yeah, so that I do -- after we saw the play, I remember Hilda telling me -because Hilda was there at the play -- and Hilda said, “You know, I was the person who was there.” But mom never talked about it. JJ: So how did you feel about the play? CAC: Wow. You know, what I remember from the play was the young man who played my father, when they did the scene where they pretended to beat him and he fell to the floor, all I wanted to do was go up and hold this man. You know what I mean? When you hear the stories, there’s no real picture to it. There’s nothing. You hear the stories, and it’s like, “Okay.” But there’s no photo, there’s nothing. And for the first time, there was a photo to what had happened and the things that were going around surrounding that. It was very emotional. JJ: I saw (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, it was very -- [01:01:00] I was taken aback. I didn’t know what to expect. I mean I knew they were going to do the play, but I didn’t know -- I didn’t know what I was gonna feel. And it was just, you know, “Wow, this really happened. This was my dad. This was my mom. This was Ch -Cha. This was” -- I could 40 �name the people, who they were talking about. That’s when it all kinda comes full circle, and wow. That’s when you realize, “Okay, there’s a lot more going on over here than I remember.” JJ: And, in fact, what Angie did, your mom did, and your father, and all that, spread to a lot of other cities. Matter of fact, right now they play at (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, I wanna go. JJ: (inaudible). CAC: I wanna see the play. JJ: It’s gonna be there till November. I guess they’re trying to get some other things in there. It’s gonna be there till November. CAC: [01:02:00] People asking about what your parents do or what your parents have done, and I just find it amazing that my mom was a staple for something somewhere, but, yet, she was mom. We had dinner on the table every day, you know? She never missed a beat. JJ: You know, I do have her on the website, and I did that intentionally because I didn’t want -- that’s sort of our commitment that we’re not gonna let her -- just forgotten her work. Hopefully, that doesn’t -- CAC: No. JJ: That’s okay with you. CAC: Oh, yeah. I love that people look at my mom, and I love that people are remembering or talking about what she did. None of that phases me at all. I’m proud of my mom. I ended up growing into not just a daughter, but just some -you know, I had a hero [01:03:00] in my house that did these amazing things, but 41 �it wasn’t the glory, she didn’t talk about it, she didn’t want to be patted on the back, she just -- she just did it. And I would ask her questions, later on after the play, and just got to know more about her and how she did it. I mean when you think about it, here she was, nineteen, four kids, a widow -JJ: On food stamps. CAC: On food stamps, living in what wasn’t necessarily her, you know what I mean? She chose this is the life she wanted to live. She could’ve lived something different. You know, typical in those days, they wanted to marry my mom off, and she would have been married to a Sicilian man. I wouldn’t be here. (laughter) But she chose different. And for her to go through all of that and still [01:04:00] come out -- you know, she ended up getting remarried, she ended up having one more child who’s autistic. She never let any of that slow her down. And he’s different. He doesn’t know he’s different, we don’t talk about it, we just do whatever we need to do. That’s what mom taught us. You just do whatever you need to do, and that’s what makes it okay. JJ: What about her work? Was it Palmer Square? CAC: Palmer Square where she did the -JJ: How did that happen? How did that come about? CAC: Originally, I don’t know how she got into property management. She was managing in a property in Rogers Park off of Howard and Ashland. The buildings over there were populated with a majority of African American or -- yeah, I think I said that right. F1: You did. 42 �CAC: Okay. Populated [01:05:00] mostly with that. And all of a sudden, they gave her an opportunity to manage this complex that was Hispanic -- majority Hispanic -and that’s what she did. And she brought in -JJ: Was it like Section 8 housing? CAC: Yeah, a lot of Section 8. They had several apartments that weren’t Section 8, but maybe 90 percent of it was lower-income. JJ: And, in fact, the company is pretty well known for trying to get Section 8 housing, low-income housing. CAC: Yes. JJ: So the company -- CAC: The funny piece is my husband ended up working for the same company that my mom was with, and he was at the first site where she was at -- at Northpoint on Howard. JJ: Oh, he was over there? CAC: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so she’s managing the -- CAC: She managed it, and she brought in -- she kind of created a -- it was a community there. She was part of it with them. She wasn’t the Sicilian, [01:06:00] she was one of them. And she did everything she could to make it better for everybody. She brought it in a lot of programs, and they loved her. I remember when she passed away, they bused in -- they rented a bus to bring in tenants from the building who wanted to come to her wake. And they all said, “Your mom” -- there were so many stories. It doesn’t feel real, but when you 43 �think back to some of these conversations just that day -- “Your mom was just so amazing. She gave me the chance, and now I’m doing this,” or, “Your mom did that.” My mom didn’t talk about it, though. JJ: These are the tenants? CAC: These are tenants, yeah. JJ: That were talking about her? CAC: Yeah. “Because of your mom,” “Because of your mom,” “Your mom this,” “Your mom that.” It came at a really good time ’cause I needed that, [01:07:00] but it was just -- it was wonderful to see how much my mom was loved and respected by people. JJ: And you took it kinda hard at that time, too. How are you doing now? Any better? CAC: I’m good. I mean, you know, she became my life for two years, and we lived in the same building. I remember waking up early every morning to have coffee with her so she wouldn’t wake up by herself. We had dinner together every night. I mean she just became such -- every day with me. And even when she was in the hospital, I would sleep in the hospital. My job was wonderful. I would either go in real early and then go back with her so when it was time to eat I was with her, or I would go in in the evenings to work, and they allowed me to do that to take care of my mom. And suddenly when mom passed, [01:08:00] you know, my whole -- I felt like my -- like I hit a wall ’cause nothing was the same. I didn’t know what to do with myself anymore ’cause she wasn’t there. And then, you know, you’re thrown into a role where now what do I do? Suddenly I’ve got my 44 �brothers looking at me, I’ve got my youngest brother who’s autistic (audio cuts out; inaudible) to him. Yeah, she was everything, and how do I step into those shoes? What do I do now to make it seem seamless for him? He was gonna hurt, but I didn’t want for him to be so hurt that he couldn’t keep going forward because she wanted him to keep going forward. And now you see him and you - you know, he misses her, but everything in his life is still the same. We have pictures of mom in the house, he knows mom is around us, [01:09:00] he works, he just -- he’s a man. JJ: He’s working now? CAC: Yeah. JJ: What kind of work? CAC: He does groceries at the corner. The Jewel food store where we -- you know, we picketed Jewel as children, (laughter) but he was working for Jewel, and he’s -JJ: Didn’t Alex work at Jewel, too? CAC: He does. Not the same one, but a different one. But Rico’s good. He’s going to be with me the rest of my life, and I have to -- I always do what mom would want for him. Doesn’t matter anything else, it’s like, “What would mom want for him?” I’ll remind him, “You know, Rico, you’re an adult, you’re a grown man, what do you want to do? You tell me what you wanna do.” ’Cause mom was very -- mom fought for him. When he was born, he -- they classified him as being borderline [01:10:00] mentally retarded, and mom fought it. Mom said, “We know there’s a problem, that’s not what the problem is.” And she had him tested, and retested, 45 �and she fought long and hard for him. And he finished high school, you know, he did it. He did it. Although I get nervous when he takes off on his bike. JJ: I know he’s on the computer. CAC: Oh, he’s always on the computer. JJ: On the computer, yeah. CAC: He loves his computer. (laughter) He’s got every toy imaginable up in his room. He doesn’t need anything. F1: That’s good. CAC: Yeah. I hope that mom -- that part of what we do is mom’s legacy, you know what I mean? I hope that. We’re not the same, but, hopefully, in some of what we do, people can say, “You know what? You were your mother’s child there.” (laughs) Nothing is more complimentary to me than for someone to tell me, “You are so your mother.” [01:11:00] As a kid, you’re like, “No, I’m not my mother.” But now it’s like, “Wow. Thank you. (laughter) Tell me a story.” JJ: What else do you think we should say about your mom? CAC: My mom. She was a firecracker. I remember stories of her, too. She would go out and she always stood up for somebody who wouldn’t stand up for themselves. She didn’t care who it was. Juan would tell us stories. He would say, “Your mother, (laughter) we went out last night, and some guy was picking on another guy, and your mom spit at him,” and I’m like (laughter) -- he goes, “I know.” He’s like, “Angie, you’re doing this, and this guy’s gonna wanna fight me.” And all she said was, “But did you see how he was treating so and so?” That’s all that mattered to her [01:12:00] was that people were treated fair and proper. 46 �That’s all that mattered to her. And she actually told me that she learned that from her dad. My grandparents were much older, they had her later in life, and my grandfather told her, “You know, everything around you, when you hear these people talking about, ‘They’re not us, they don’t fit in,’” he said, “If you go in a war with somebody, then they deserve everything that you have.” And mom said that’s what she always remembered. That everybody was the same. If they’re gonna battle together, then they deserve all the same rights, and she stood up for that. And that’s probably why when she chose to marry a Hispanic, my grandparents supported her because, “You know what? This is what she wants.” And it’s okay if their families weren’t gonna talk to them anymore, this was their daughter and they were gonna support their daughter. JJ: [01:13:00] Did she ever say why she married -- they were all Hispanics, but AfroHispanics. CAC: They were all dark Latinos. (laughter) She loved that. She did, I swear. (laughter) All of them. All three of them. They were all dark, and had the real little short curly hair. I don’t know if my dad had an accent, but I think (inaudible) had an accent, and Juan had an accent. JJ: No, he didn’t -- CAC: (inaudible) didn’t have one? JJ: Well -- CAC: Juan did. JJ: You mean your dad? CAC: Well, okay, did my dad have an accent? 47 �JJ: No, he -- CAC: He didn’t? JJ: A street accent. No, he grew up here. CAC: But I think both of my stepdads had somewhat of an accent. And you know what’s funny is they never spoke Spanish in the house when we were kids. We didn’t grow up bilingual. JJ: Okay. [01:14:00] Rory, myself, Raul -- CAC: I saw him recently. JJ: Those are people from our group with your dad. So he was like that. CAC: I saw Raul recently. JJ: You saw Raul? CAC: I was at a concert, and I chased him ’cause I saw the side of the him, and I chased him down the -- we were at (inaudible). JJ: Oh, yeah. Actually, I’ve been to (inaudible) with the (inaudible). A couple of times we got tickets to go there. CAC: That’s great. He was there, so it was fun to see him. JJ: And you went by Carlos, too? You saw Carlos or something you told me? CAC: Carlos Flores? JJ: Yeah. CAC: I see him everywhere. JJ: ’Cause he does the jazz -- 48 �CAC: Yes. Yeah, he was at the Humboldt Park jazz -- I have a friend who plays saxophone in a jazz band, Latin jazz. And they were playing that night, and that’s where I saw Carlos. JJ: So are you just into these concerts now? Is that what you’re doing? CAC: Yeah, I mean one of my girlfriends who I hang around with, her husband [01:15:00] is in the band. JJ: Okay, so you just follow the band? CAC: Yeah, he’s gonna play, and we just go, and then I end up seeing -- you know, you don’t think you’re gonna run into anybody, and my husband’s like, “You always see people.” (laughter) JJ: I know you like to party ’cause one time I came here and opened the door downstairs and (laughs) -- CAC: Yeah, we have parties. JJ: It was wild. It was a wild party. (laughs) CAC: We have parties. The group that’s involved with the play in Oregon-JJ: It mean it was very respectful, but it was loud. Everybody was (inaudible). CAC: Oh, yeah. They were here for -- what play were they doing? They were doing a play here in February. JJ: Oh, you mean Universes (inaudible)? CAC: Universes, yes. They were doing a play over here. JJ: That was recently, yeah. CAC: And they came to my house, and we were having a party at my house. And it was our beach party in the middle of February, we call it our winter barbecue. 49 �And, matter of fact, I carried that down from my mom ’cause my mom would celebrate her birthday which was in February, [01:16:00] and they would do a summer party in February. So we do a winter barbecue which is our version, and they came for that night. And they were here with Melissa -- your daughter was here. And we had a big winter barbecue with all my friends. It was wonderful. JJ: My daughter was here? CAC: Your daughter was here. JJ: So that had to be a pretty crazy party. CAC: She was actually really -- she was quiet. (laughter) She was quiet. I think when she walked in, she wasn’t quite sure what she was walking into, and they weren’t quite sure ’cause I said, “All my friends are coming over, we’re having a party, you’re in town, come on over.” And they’re like, “Oh, well, it’ll be late.” I’m like, “No, no, no. We’ll still be up.” “What do I bring?” “Nothing, nothing. We’re good, just come.” And it was like 11 o’clock at night, and my husband started grilling on the stick in the middle of winter hamburgers for them because it was our winter barbecue. And by the time they left, they just said, “Oh, my God. Your party is absolutely wonderful.” (laughter) Yeah, they loved it. I’m on Facebook with all of them, [01:17:00] and to this day, one of them -- (inaudible)? JJ: Ninja? CAC: No, Ninja’s the younger brother. JJ: Right. And then you have -- [Steven?]? CAC: There was another gentleman from New Orleans. [Steven Staff?] is her husband. 50 �JJ: Oh, (inaudible). CAC: He emailed me recently via Facebook and just told me -- you know, “Hope everything was” -JJ: (inaudible) is his name. CAC: Okay. He had hoped everything was going well. He said, “And by the way, I’m still thinking about your party, (laughter) and how wonderful it was.” Another spirit of mom in me is that party. (laughter) JJ: What other thing that you feel is important about your life? CAC: My life. JJ: This is about you talking about your mom. CAC: I wouldn’t change it for anything. Now what I know I probably would have [01:18:00] asked more when I was younger, but when mom didn’t talk about it or kept it away from us, we didn’t ask any questions. But now I would like to know more about how she felt, and why she did certain things, and kinda walk through all of that with her. I would have liked to learn more about all that part of her life that she kept away from us kids. But I wouldn’t change it. JJ: Do you think it was that she was probably protecting you -- CAC: Yeah, she was. JJ: But there wasn’t anything that she felt ashamed of? CAC: No, I don’t think it was shame, I think it was just more -- I think in the back of her mind, losing my dad very young and being with all of us kids, she just felt -- and seeing what a lot of -- at that point in time, a lot of what the Latinos were going 51 �through, she wasn’t going to lose [01:19:00] her children to anything. You know what I mean? JJ: Because she had that loss. Yeah, that’s what she had -- CAC: Yeah because she suffered her loss, she wasn’t going to lose her children. And maybe it was kind of along the lines of how I felt with my son, you know? Two strikes against him. He’s a Latino and he’s a male, and at that point in time, gangs in Chicago were really coming up. And it was always, you know, you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and so I think it was more all of that. M1: I have to get going. CAC: Okay. M1: I’m going to use your car. CAC: Okay. M2: I need your keys. CAC: My keys are in the other room. M2: Where? CAC: I don’t (inaudible). (break in audio) CAC: Sorry, she calmed down. JJ: Who is the new person in the black? CAC: This is my daughter, [Nika?]. She’s a little party girl, too. F1: Nika, you’re a beauty. CAC: Yeah. And she’s very protective. F1: That’s good. 52 �CAC: Yes. But, you know, going back to my mom, I think my mom probably felt the same way, [01:20:00] just that she wasn’t going to lose her children to any of that stuff, so she kept us away from it. Maybe she felt because she wasn’t a minority that, you know -- and being female it wasn’t going to be as hard for her, but for her children it was going to be hard. Like I said earlier, we were not bilingual. And I don’t know if it was her or if it was (inaudible) at the time, but they felt that - one of them felt that speaking Spanish was gonna hinder our future. JJ: I was gonna ask you about that. CAC: Yeah, they thought it was gonna hinder. And then now, it’s so a part of everything normal that it would have been a benefit. There are times, you know, when I was looking for job -JJ: I don’t think it was Angie that said that. CAC: You think it was him? JJ: I think it could have been (inaudible). CAC: They didn’t speak it. JJ: I think it was (inaudible) because -- but I mean I’m assuming -- CAC: No, that’s okay. JJ: But only because [01:21:00] there were issues there. There were issues there in terms of skin and some form of racism in Puerto Rico that -- where people are kind of sometimes almost ashamed of who they are. They kind of shame themselves. CAC: They only spoke it when they didn’t want us to know what they were talking about. 53 �JJ: And then when you think of the word Young Lords, you think of gang. Was that a -- CAC: No, see, for me, Young Lord was political. It wasn’t a gang. And to find out that you guys actually started out as a gang, a group of people, even that I was like, “What? (laughter) A gang?” “Well, yeah, Cathy, not the same kind of gang you’re thinking about.” But, you know, I just always thought it was political. JJ: Well, it definitely is not like the gangs of today, but that’s the image that people get. CAC: Exactly. Right. JJ: It was like a neighborhood [squad?]. CAC: It was a young group of [01:22:00] individuals who were together. JJ: Not that we didn’t (inaudible) -- CAC: No, but that’s okay. JJ: -- drinks, or beers, or weed, whatever. CAC: That’s okay. JJ: But we didn’t -- CAC: What was that? Weed? What? (laughter) JJ: That was (inaudible). (laughter) But -- CAC: Delete. (laughter) JJ: No, no. We’ll have to delete that. (laughter) You know what I’m saying? We were not a drug enterprise. CAC: Right. I mean we had everybody around us. If my mom was worried about the people she was with, then they wouldn’t have been around us. But we just didn’t 54 �know what it was. We knew that everybody was around, but we didn’t know what was going on. We didn’t know any of that. JJ: And what did you see? I mean some people do call us that, a gang. But what did you see? CAC: It wasn’t a gang. JJ: What type of people did you see? CAC: It was my family. It wasn’t a [01:23:00] gang. It was a family. The children were involved in everything that was going on. We were part of the parties, we were part of -- I don’t feel like things were hidden from us even though my mom didn’t tell us what she did. Nothing was hidden from us. We participated in stuff. We participated. It wasn’t a gang. For us, it was just normal. It was our life. It wasn’t anything but our life. JJ: So it didn’t have any semblance of a gang? CAC: No. It was nothing -JJ: To you. CAC: Yeah. JJ: What did it look like to you? CAC: It was just family to me. It wasn’t anything but family. There was nothing else there but family. That’s why when I heard more in life the things that you had fought for, what everybody had stood up for, I’m like -JJ: [01:24:00] What did you hear that had been fought for? CAC: For the community, for people who were being displaced from their homes, for people who weren’t being given opportunities. Those are things that you guys 55 �fought for. You were developing a community of people that weren’t developing themselves. They didn’t know how to develop themselves, really. There was nothing structured there for them to do it, and you guys were doing it. So it was normal. I can’t describe it as anything but that it was just my life. It was normal, and I wouldn’t change it. I wouldn’t change that we were in the mix of so many different things without even knowing it. I wouldn’t change that. Living in a suburb with a little picket fence? No. (laughter) No. I could still chant my boycotts (laughter) and [01:25:00] I was proud of my people. These are my people. I’m going to use Cha Cha as an example. To other people, Cha Cha is this amazing figure who led this cause, and still believes in this cause, and still fights this fight, and he fought through it for years. And I was like, “Cha Cha? Cha Cha was my uncle. I’m the godmother to your granddaughter.” (laughter) You know? It’s just family. It’s nothing other than family for me. But it’s just amazing how everybody else looks at it from the outside. I have a girlfriend who is from Brooklyn, and she has talked about Young Lords. And when I was telling her the history -- my version of the history and how the Young Lords started here, she loved it. And she talked to all the actors when [01:26:00] they were here at my party, if they bring that play over here, they’re gonna go to that play. JJ: I think they’re planning (inaudible). CAC: I hope so. I’m curious to see it. JJ: It plays there until November and then they plan to -- CAC: They’re hoping to come out? JJ: To at least bring it to Chicago and New York. 56 �CAC: That would be wonderful. But, yeah, my friends are amazed with it. Okay, back inside the house. (laughter) Sorry. Hi. F2: Vicious, vicious dog. (laughter) You are a killer. She is a killer. CAC: I know she is. (laughs) Stop it. You’re walking very good. F2: Huh? CAC: You’re walking very good. F2: So much better. CAC: Good. F2: So much better. CAC: Good for you. F2: It’s amazing. CAC: Enjoy your evening. F2: (inaudible). I see you. I see you through the screen. JJ: [01:27:00] What kind of final thoughts do you have? (inaudible) CAC: Okay, my final thoughts? JJ: (inaudible). CAC: Okay. Nika. She’s gonna go over the deck. F2: Yeah, I’m waiting. One of these days. CAC: She is. She climbs over to the edge, and one day she’s gonna slip. My final thought. It’s hard because I don’t know anything different than what I was raised in, but to know that my mom was a part of it, you know, and that she believed in it her entire life, truly her entire life, I’m in awe. 57 �JJ: You said she believed in it her entire life, [01:28:00] and you could tell that she was proud of it all the time? CAC: Oh, yeah. Even in the years where we may not have seen each other, as soon as everybody got together, it picked up like there was never any time between it. I remember you videotaping -- interviewing her on the deck on North Avenue. JJ: Right. (inaudible). CAC: It was just a part of her. It was truly a part of her. But it was normal. It was normal for us. JJ: Just the way of growing up? CAC: Yeah. And I wish that other children can grow up having memories of things that are outside of their home ’cause it does open your eyes to a lot, and I wish that other children could see that. JJ: Any special plans? Are you planning to stay here? CAC: [01:29:00] In Chicago, definitely. I’m always gonna be Chicago. Where we end up from here, though, you know, probably not here, this neighborhood itself. At one point in time, it was a lot of gangs in this neighborhood and it was a lower income. A lot of them have moved out -- condos. We’re sitting next to condos that run for $400,000, $500,000. They’re increasing my property taxes as we speak. (laughter) So we probably won’t stay here. But at the same time, I like being in the mix of everything. We’re close to everything. So I don’t know. I can’t picture anything different right now. 58 �JJ: How do you feel about -- I know you really didn’t remember it, living through it ’cause they had a house, your grandparents had a house [01:30:00] on Armitage. But I’m sure people have talked about it. The housing has improved, it’s not -- CAC: It’s improved for some, but other people lose. JJ: But how do you feel about poor people being displaced? CAC: I don’t like it. I don’t like it all. I don’t think it’s fair. What you’re building in one place, you’re bringing down someplace else -- intentionally, in my opinion, is what it is. JJ: Intentionally? CAC: Intentionally. JJ: But don’t you think it’s a way to get rid of the gangs? CAC: Well, no, because you got to put them some place, and you’re putting them all in one place, and now that place is going to be just as bad as the place where it started. It’s revolving. It’s not here, then it’s there. And once it’s not there, it’s there. It’s just gonna keep revolving, is what it’s doing. But I feel bad for those people who they spent their lives in a home [01:31:00] and they lose their homes. They can no longer afford it because of everything else that is being created around them. I don’t think that’s fair. I don’t know how it affected my grandparents when they lived on Armitage, but -JJ: But I’m sure they’re probably (inaudible). CAC: Oh, yeah. Yeah. JJ: Didn’t they sell and they moved up with Angie? 59 �CAC: No, they moved to New Jersey for a while, and then my mom sent for them to live with us. JJ: Okay, that’s what happened? But did they lose their house or did they sell it? CAC: I don’t know. I don’t know. I do recall what -- I’m talking about phrases. JJ: I know ’cause I used to have to paint. I used to have to paint for your grandfather. CAC: See? (laughter) The phrases of the daily machine? We were scared. We didn’t know what that was, but we knew we didn’t want to be around that. JJ: That’s a bad term. CAC: Yeah. All I pictured was one of those big wrecking balls, that’s what I pictured the daily machines. (laughs) [01:32:00] But it was normal, you know, things that we grew up with that we heard around us. JJ: Yeah ’cause your mother used to say urban (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, and we were like, “Oh, daily? Who’s that? (laughed) He was in charge of this.” JJ: No, it was (inaudible) or something. CAC: Yeah, we couldn’t pronounce it right. JJ: Yes, you would say (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, but all I pictured was that big wrecking ball. And we never saw one in real life, but that’s what I pictured. So leave it to a kid’s imagination. It was this big wrecking ball. And we just knew that Mayor Daley just wasn’t the right -- he wasn’t a good man (laughter) -- whoever he was. 60 �JJ: Your mother ran the group. I did have to -- for some demonstrations got incarcerated, and your mother ran the group -- was the only person ever to run the group, was your mom. [01:33:00] But what was my question? Now I lost my question. (laughter) CAC: Did she talk about it? Did we know? JJ: Yeah, can you sense that she was a leader? CAC: No. JJ: With the people that come around, they didn’t look up to her? CAC: Maybe they did, but she was mom. JJ: But I mean wasn’t there a lot of respect towards her or from the group? CAC: Yeah, but you respected my mom or mom was gonna kick your ass. (laughter) JJ: She definitely would do that. CAC: Right. Mom didn’t hesitate to tell you what she was feeling. It was just normal. I’m telling you, she wasn’t anything but our mom. You weren’t anything but Cha Cha. You know what I mean? You guys made it so normal for us that we didn’t know what was going on around us. Had no idea. No idea at all until you read the books -- “Cha Cha got arrested? (laughter) When was this?” You know what I mean? I didn’t know. JJ: So there was a little [01:34:00] gasp in between or -- CAC: When you look up things now. JJ: You know, in grapevine. In the grapevine, this is what happened. 61 �CAC: Well, when you look it up online, it’ll talk about -- you look up some of the history on certain things and you’ll see things like that. Mom never talked about that stuff. JJ: She never did? CAC: Never ever. I knew you ran for an alderman, and I’m assuming it was Uptown, and that’s all I remember. And then I remember Helen Shiller, I know she’s still an alderman, and I remember her being with Slim. But, see, other than that, I don’t remember any of the politics. JJ: (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, I don’t remember any of the politics around it at all. JJ: How about the Harold Washington campaign? Do you remember anything? CAC: No, but I do -- when I was first legally able to vote, I did vote for him. I remember that. (laughter) JJ: But I mean did you know that we worked on his campaign? CAC: No. Mom didn’t -- [01:35:00] when she felt true to something, she did it, but she didn’t push it. She never pushed us kids to follow. JJ: Well, she pushed it, but not with her kids. CAC: Right, not with us kids. She wanted us kind of I think how I am with my son. I’m allowing him to make his own decision, his own choice, and that’s what she did with each of us. With all the politics going on now, oh. JJ: It’s kind of crazy, yeah. CAC: Oh, my God. Yeah, she’d be real crazy with this. (laughs) But everything was just normal. We didn’t know. We didn’t know anything. We knew the parties, we 62 �knew -- all the fun stuff we knew, but anything else behind it, if there was sadness behind it, we didn’t see it. You guys never showed it to us. JJ: Now, that’s good in one sense, but on the other sense, do you feel that’s because everybody knows each other from all those years, [01:36:00] same crowd, I know you have your own grouping of friends now, but every once in a while, they do come together whether it’s a wedding, or a funeral, or something, but do you feel that some of the members, some of these people have any shame? You don’t have -- CAC: Do they have shame? JJ: Do they have shame or they don’t want to talk about it? CAC: You know, since you put it that way, maybe some of them do because I don’t remember seeing some of the faces with the plays and some of get togethers. But I don’t know for what reasons they chose to -- whatever they chose, I don’t know why they chose what they have. JJ: To be honest, I even hear some negative things. Some negative thinking, or talk, [01:37:00] or could be my imagination. (laughter) CAC: Are they embarrassed? JJ: Yeah, I’m wondering if they’re embarrassed, if there’s any guilt feelings, any shame, if they’re worried about the gang because they’ve thrown that at us. I don’t know, I’m just trying to do find out ’cause you’re here, I’m not here. CAC: I don’t hear any of that, but maybe because my mom didn’t feel that way. Maybe that’s why I don’t hear it. JJ: No, she didn’t. 63 �CAC: That’s probably why I don’t. Mom never had guilt. JJ: When people mention the Young Lords, how do they mention it? CAC: I think a lot of the generation now, they don’t know it started here, and they don’t know the fight that you had here, the steps that you guys took here. I don’t think they realize that. I think that when they hear Young Lords, they think that it started [01:38:00] in New York because that’s where it became bigger at that time, but they don’t know that it started here and who was involved in that. They don’t know that. And my friends find it amazing that my mom was in -- when they hear about it, they find out it’s amazing she was involved in that. JJ: Okay, that’s your -- CAC: That’s my friends. JJ: Your friends, your peer group. But what about the older ones? Your uncles and aunts? CAC: None of them talk about it. I think my mom was really the only one in the immediate group that still held strong to what she felt. JJ: So they don’t talk about it? That’s what I mean. CAC: Yeah, none of them. JJ: Do you find that odd? I mean that they were involved and then -- CAC: Yeah. If it were me and I was involved in something like that, I would want people to know about it, and I would want to clarify, and I would want to talk about it as much as I could, and they don’t [01:39:00] talk about it. I’m not around a lot of them anymore. I’ll see them at functions. Of course, we don’t 64 �even talk about any of that, but, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. It is weird. I guess I didn’t think about it till you said it right now. That’s my son. It is weird. JJ: It is kinda weird though, right? CAC: Yeah. I wasn’t a part of it, but I know I talk about it with my son -- things that I’ve heard ’cause I want him to be proud of his grandparents and to really understand how he -- why we have what we have, why we’re at where we’re at, and how we got there. JJ: I mean there are some Young Lords that still talk about it, but then there’s a bunch of other Young Lords that come around here, that you know, that came around Angie, that won’t. CAC: Yeah, they didn’t. JJ: [01:40:00] And sometimes I think that maybe it’s -- you know, there was a lot -instead of interviewing I’m telling my story. CAC: That’s okay. JJ: But there was a lot of what I call repression (inaudible). They were trying to stop the group, they were afraid of the group ’cause it was challenging the -- CAC: The system. JJ: The status quo, the system. So you think now that you know that there’s a weird thing going on -- assuming, making assumptions that we shouldn’t, but what do you think? CAC: I don’t think they should feel that way. I could see that they may feel that way. I don’t think they should, though. I mean you guys didn’t do anything wrong. You guys had a cause and you made a difference. You made a difference for a lot of 65 �people, and that’s what they need to remember. Tt’s not a gang, it wasn’t a gang, it wasn’t the gang bangers that [01:41:00] we see in neighborhoods nowadays. It’s nothing like that, and they need to remember that. And maybe they’re not happy with their past, but they -- or maybe they did something else that led them to not be happy with their past, but mom was proud of her past. She was very proud of it. JJ: Any final thoughts? I asked you that earlier. CAC: No. My mom was an amazing person, and I’m glad she was raised the way she was and she did what she did ’cause it definitely made her a different person. People remember her. JJ: And now you got your own circle of friends, you’re an amazing person. CAC: I do mine on a different level. (laughter) On a very different level. JJ: Okay. CAC: Yeah. JJ: That’s it. CAC: Okay. JJ: All right, thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 66 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e8af58196d7a09867520b27e6a6db423.mp4 cf711dd7ba96f07c1a3973e055d73b0b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Cathy Adorno-Centeno vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Adorno-Centeno_Cathy Title A name given to the resource Cathy Adorno-Centeno video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Adorno-Centeno, Cathy Description An account of the resource Interview of Cathy Adorno-Centeno on August 24, 2012 by José "Cha-Cha" Jiménez and Melanie Shell-Weiss (identified in the transcript as "F1"). In the video, a Latina woman sits facing the camera and speaks to the interviewer who is off camera. Cathy Adorno-Centeno is the daughter of Angie Navedo-Rizzo, a Young Lord who also founded “Mothers and Others,” a sub-group within the Young Lords that organized around women’s rights issues. Born in Chicago, Ms. Adorno-Centeno describes growing up surrounded by Young Lords and in a home that was a central gathering for pot luck family dinners for members of the organization and their supporters. Following the brutal death of her Young Lord father Jose “Pancho” Lind, Ms. Adorno-Centeno and her brothers and mother went underground; staying at a rented farm near Tomah, Wisconsin that would become the Young Lords’ Training Camp. Her most vivid childhood memories are of the warmth and support she enjoyed as a member of the Young Lords community. It included block parties, farmworker pickets, demonstrations and social events held near or in the Young Lords headquarters on Wilton and Grace streets. She also spent time at Rico’s Club (which her mother owned) and enjoyed company for the Sunday pasta dinners in her home. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- (interviewer) Shell-Weiss, Melanie (interviewer) Audio Transcription Center (transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb2685cf74a33a81e19017bb9798742c.pdf bc05edb429957620a7884f6c37759b53 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Howard Alan Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/22/2012 Biography and Description Howard Alan is an architect who specializes in organic architecture, passive and active solar and alternative energy conservation. He grew up in Chicago and first learned architecture in high school before going on to attend the School of Architecture at the University of Southern California. In 1969, Mr. Alan invited and brought the world renowned architect, Buckminster Fuller, to the People’s Church to meet with Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords. The Young Lords and the Poor People’s Coalition of Lincoln Park (which Mr. Jiménez was also their president) hired Mr. Alan to draw up plans for a multi-unit, affordable housing complex, as a concrete cooperative alternative to Daley’s Master Plan; a plan which was displacing Latinos and the poor from across Chicago’s near-downtown and lakefront neighborhoods. Mr. Alan’s plans were supported by and presented to a broad group of businesses and community organizations, including the former head of the Department of Urban Renewal, Mr. Ira Bach. However, in a packed and tumultuous housing committee meeting of the City Council, Mr. Alan’s plans were rejected. In this oral history interview, Mr. Alan reflects on the Young Lord’s and Mr. Jiménez’s commitment to the poor and why this was such a controversial stance.Today, Mr. Alan’s office remains in Lincoln Park, on Armitage Avenue. His award-winning, innovative, and sustainable designs can be seen all over Chicago and beyond. He regularly gives talks around the country on topics related to sustainable and organic architecture. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Howard, if you can give me your name -- full name -- and then give me date of birth and where you were born. HOWARD ALAN: All right. My name is Howard Alan. I was born in the city of Chicago on the South Side. JJ: Which part of the South Side? HA: I’m not sure I know what it’s called, but -- JJ: Which streets? HA: Somewhere around Carpenter Street and maybe 6300 South. JJ: 6300 South. HA: Yeah, my grandfather owned a two-level [frame?] building, and the earliest I can remember is that’s where I was born and lived until I was close to five. JJ: [00:01:00] Okay, [now, I was walkin’ around?]. So, you were born here in Chicago. HA: I am born in Chicago. JJ: And you said what year again? I’m sorry. HA: I didn’t. JJ: I was walkin’ around. HA: I am born in Chicago in the year 1931. JJ: ’31? Okay. HA: July 7 is my lucky birthday. JJ: And you’ve never left Chicago. 1 �HA: Oh, that’s not true. JJ: That’s not true? Okay. HA: I stayed in Chicago until I graduated high school and went to Los Angeles. JJ: And so, you went to which grammar school? HA: In Chicago, I went to several grammar schools, but the one that I spent the most time was Kozminski on the South Side, 5400 South Ingleside. JJ: Okay. That’s -- HA: And I -- JJ: That’s the East Side, isn’t it? HA: Hmm? JJ: That’s the East. Ingleside? Or is that West? HA: It’s East. JJ: [00:02:00] East, okay. HA: It was a good school, and, when I graduated -- that’s grammar school. JJ: Was it Hyde Park, or --? HA: I went to Hyde Park -- JJ: Okay, [that was?] Hyde Park High School. HA: -- after that. Hyde Park High School, where I was fortunate to have three years of high school architecture classes, and, by the time I was 15, I’d already determined that’s what I wanted to be. I never had another thought about where I was going. JJ: I mean, what brought you to that thinking? Were you parents involved with that, or...? 2 �HA: Well, no. My parents were not involved, except that my mother -- JJ: Your mother’s name is what? HA: Her name is [Betty Banks?]. That was her maiden name, and [00:03:00] her married name -- well, she had several marriages, so we can skip that. JJ: Okay. Your father’s name? HA: My father’s name is [Murray?]. He was born [Morris?], and his last name is [Spiegel?]. But my folks were divorced when I was 10. JJ: Ten, okay. HA: Some people say 12, but I think 10. So -- JJ: Any brothers or sisters? HA: I’m an only child. JJ: Okay. Now, they grew up also in Chicago, your parents, or no? HA: No. My father is Canadian, came to the United States during the Depression or a little bit before the Depression. I think he was about 16 when he came, and he came to make his way [00:04:00] with his older brother. And -- JJ: And your mom? HA: My mother came with six others from Poland. She came from probably a Polish shtetl, if you know what a shtetl is. JJ: No. Can you explain what that is? HA: It’s an area in Poland, which had a whole flock of rules against the Jews, and they had their own area called a shtetl, which was mixed with buildings to live in, and shops, and stores, and they had their own legal system as well. And so, I’m told that my mother came from a shtetl and from a farm, but my grandfather 3 �[00:05:00] came first, and he came to the South Side, and he was -- he made shoes, and he set himself up until he had enough of a environment and a steady bit of work, and then he brought all his kids over. Seven kids, all together. JJ: And so, they came around what years, did they [move?]? HA: Oh, gee. JJ: This was way before you were born, or...? HA: Way before I was born. JJ: Early 1900s or something like that? HA: No, I’m sure it was after 1900, but they were -- I know my -- I think they were here some time -- I don’t know the dates. JJ: Okay. No, [that’s fine?]. HA: I really don’t know the dates. JJ: [Just a idea?]. HA: As far as I was concerned, I needed something to [00:06:00] give me a direction, and, when it was architecture, that was what I wanted. I was always making things in between playing baseball, and football, and all that stuff you did on the South Side. But it was the doing which I loved the most. So, I -- JJ: Were your friends, any friends in school, into architecture, or no? HA: None of my early friends would -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: -- dream of going into architecture. No, no. They were -- JJ: (inaudible)? HA: Hmm? 4 �JJ: I mean -- HA: Was there a group of people that I was involved in? What do you mean? JJ: Right? Why would, all of a sudden, you think about architecture? You know, people think about baseball or -- like, you did play baseball and football. HA: I played lots of sports. JJ: Lots of sports. HA: I was very -- I climbed every tree in Washington Park, [00:07:00] and, sure, I did do those things, but there was something about me that recognized that there was more in life, and it had to do with the fact that I could do things myself. I could build things. I could -- JJ: What sort of things were you building? HA: Oh, I had an Erector Set, and I threw away the plans, and I made what I wanted to make with it, and that kind of thing. JJ: [What kind of set?]? HA: An Erector Set. Erector Set was very popular in the late ’30s. JJ: Okay. What is that? HA: It was a box of beams, and columns, and screws, and things you wound up, and I was forever making things with it. JJ: Okay. I got you. I got you. HA: And then, [00:08:00] Frank Lloyd Wright’s son, who was responsible for the Lincoln Logs that were sold at -- JJ: Those I remember. HA: -- Marshall Field’s. 5 �JJ: Right, those I remember. HA: I played a lot with that, but I played with everything. I made model airplanes. You know, I learned how to whistle. I did all kinds of things back then. And, when I graduated from -- JJ: So, then, you went to Hyde Park High School? HA: Yes, I went to Hyde Park High School and was really fortunate to have -- JJ: Was that a mixed school at that time, or --? HA: Mixed? JJ: Yeah. (overlapping dialogue). HA: Human beings and doggies? JJ: Well, [human beings?]. I mean in terms of ethnic -- HA: Ethnic? I think there were probably three Blacks in the school at the time. I’m not certain -- JJ: Can you --? HA: -- but I think that’s -- there were very few -- most everybody was light-colored. [00:09:00] But the teacher I had was wonderful. He came just when I was entering the school, and, after the first semester, I got him as a teacher in the architecture class -- JJ: What’s his name? [Do you?] remember? HA: His name is [Napieralski?], and he was a graduate of the architecture department at University of Illinois in Champaign, and, of course, it was the Depression when he graduated, and there was no work, so he became a teacher. But, before him, there was another teacher who turned out to be kind of an alcoholic and would 6 �go down into the boiler room and drink with the building [00:10:00] superintendent or building fixer-upper. And he was teaching architecture with shades and shadows on Roman and Greek facades. But, when I took the first class of Napieralski, he didn’t do that. He gave us buildings to design, and render, and make kindergarten working drawings out of, and -- so, for three years, we did that. There were four of us that were really focused on it and felt serious about it. JJ: And this was at the university? HA: No, no. JJ: [No, it was at the high school?]. HA: This is at Hyde Park High School. JJ: High school, okay. HA: We were making our drawings, and we [00:11:00] were holding things out of the window to make blueprints because the sun would work on the chemicals and would produce a blue print, which was white on blue. JJ: So, who were the designers that you were studying at that time? The architectural designers. HA: Well, the only people I knew of were Frank Lloyd Wright, and I don’t think I even knew of Sullivan or Adler from those days. But, when I left Chicago, I went to Los Angeles, and I went thinking that, somehow or other, my father would help me get through college, but he didn’t. He couldn’t. So, I went to work for architects. JJ: So, where did you live in Los Angeles? Where were you living there? 7 �HA: What happened was [00:12:00] I got my first job with an architect two blocks away from where I was living, and I did shop drawings for all the metal in the twostory building, and they couldn’t believe I could do it, but this was all extremely simple to me. JJ: What part of Los Angeles? What part? HA: It was in the Leimert Park area. JJ: Leimert Park. Okay. HA: Which is now all Black now and has been Black for 50 years or so. JJ: So, you said you were doing some drawings. HA: I would do construction drawings that would be the shop drawings of detailing every steel item in the building, which would then -- you had to do each one and make it clear. That was my first job. JJ: And that was given to the [00:13:00] contractor, or...? HA: Yes, that was given to the contractor to construct the building or to bid the costs. And so, I worked for that guy, whose name was H.W. Underhill. JJ: Okay. So, the contractor w-- how long did you work in there? HA: Oh, probably not more than four months because he gave me another job, and I designed it, and they got a price for it, and he was outraged at how much it was costing, so I wasn’t there anymore. JJ: Okay. So, it was too costly or something? HA: Well, yeah. JJ: The other bids were going through, though, right? With the contractors? HA: Yes, sure. 8 �JJ: So, you had a lot of -- HA: I didn’t design the building. I just took the metal parts out and individually made them clear so that people knew, you know, where the [holes?] were going, how long the pieces were, what [00:14:00] type pieces they were. Yeah. JJ: But those were being used by contractors. HA: Of course. JJ: Okay. HA: Yes. JJ: And there were many of those. HA: Yes, there were many. There were [heaps?] of it. JJ: Okay. All right. But then, you got the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: Then, they asked me to do some kind of a small design of a house. And so, I did it, and it turned out to be too expensive, and we parted ways. That’s all. But what actually happened was I began to get very -- even more serious. I found an apartment. Oh, I went through a whole series of strange things. I joined a fraternity because I didn’t know anybody there. And then, I found out about the fraternity, and I got fed up with it. And so, I did not last in that fraternity. It was too much baloney. [00:15:00] To me, it was baloney, but, you know, it was social, and it was -- this is the way you make friends, and this is your business friends, and so on. I was interested in being a creative person and working, and it just -- that’s how it all started. So -- JJ: What year was this? HA: That was 1950. 9 �JJ: 1950, okay. HA: And so, I began reading, and I began reading a great deal. JJ: What were you reading? HA: Well, one book I read was Kindergarten Chats by Louis Henry Sullivan, which was something that I was extremely influenced by back then. JJ: What was that about, [00:16:00] Kindergarten Chats? HA: That was about architecture, and honesty, and what organic architecture meant. Those are things which I was interested in. JJ: What is organic architecture? What is that? I mean, (inaudible). HA: Well, it’s very difficult to kind of define it, but what it really means is that it is a whole design. It’s not just an image that you’re gonna build. It’s the design, what it’s made out of, and the wholeness of it. That’s my way of speaking about it. It can be called a design where you don’t do anything that doesn’t belong in your thinking when you begin to design it, and [00:17:00] it takes -- it considers every aspect of it. Where the building is, who’s gonna be in it, what the materials ought to be, what kind of environment, which then relates to how the environment informs and supports the people in it. It’s alive. It’s a nice way of saying it, that we’re building buildings that are alive. The new word these days is biophilic, and we’ve discovered, suddenly, as if we didn’t know it already, that buildings that include nature and the organic aspect of it speaks to nature, speaks of nature. We are connected to nature, and I didn’t realize all [00:18:00] of that when I first started reading, but it seemed to be important to me. So, I got myself in the 10 �University of Southern California while I was working part-time and, in summers, full-time, and I, for some unknown connection, met wonderful architects. JJ: Who were some of them? HA: Well, the first one that I -- the only architect I could actually take my work, the work that I did at USC -- I went right through the third-year design, and I was having trouble because I was naive, I suppose, and I was under the impression that I could design the way I wanted to design in school because you weren’t hurting anybody. And so, I would take the classes in the first semester [00:19:00] of third year and answer the requirements without having a concern. The architect that I knew that I was extremely influenced by was a man named John Lautner, and Lautner was in the first fellowship of Frank Lloyd Wright’s back in the ’30s, when he and Olgivanna opened up their fellowship. So, Lautner was there, amongst a number of other people who are now -- who are actually well known. I have books from those people as well, but Lautner was the only person who would sit with me and talk to me about the work that I did, [00:20:00] and I would march up just above Hollywood Boulevard to where he was working out of his garage, and he would take the time to talk, and it was very important to me because I couldn’t get a response from my third-year professor because he was a nutcase as far as I was concerned. And a lot of that happened after the Second World War, and people who were in it and found themselves teaching instead of doing were not very open. They took the academic approach, which was you have to do this in my class. So, I didn’t know that. What it was was -[00:21:00] I discovered that I didn’t do what I was supposed to do. And so, he 11 �wouldn’t grade my work, which frustrated me no end after I looked at the sheets posted on the board for the grade I got ’cause I worked my tail of doin’ that stuff. And then, I went up to the teacher, and I don’t know why this is important, but -JJ: (inaudible). HA: I said, “What’s going on? Why don’t I have a grade?” And he said, “Well, you didn’t do the final drawings,” and I said, “Yes, I did.” And he said, “All right.” I’ll go back to his office, and we opened up the boards that -- I had three boards, which separated all the sketches, and then the final drawings were between the last two boards. And we opened it up, and there they were, and he said, “Oh, I didn’t see those.” Bullshit. Anyway, [00:22:00] he said, “You can go on to the next semester.” That is the second half of the third year. “And, if you do what we want you to do, well, you can go on to the fourth year.” There were two of us like that, and I was a good friend -- we were both friends too. Well, I got very... JJ: Frustrated? HA: No, I got angry. I got very angry, and I said -- you know, and I kept growing in this other organic attitude, and I said, “I’m gonna explore that.” I’m not going to do just -- supposed to be architecture like they wanted it. I’m gonna look for things that make good sense to me, and I’m not hurting a soul. I’m [00:23:00] just finding out -- I thought that’s what school was about. Well, I did that for the second semester, and he told me at that time, “I’m going to give you an N.” Of course, there was no such grade as an N. And so, it meant not evaluable. And I turned in all my work, and I quit. It was bad because I had -- JJ: This was your third year? 12 �HA: Yeah. At the end of the third year, and I had -- I didn’t have -- what’s the word? I don’t know what the word is. The word is -- I had a way not to have to go into the service because of the war, the Korean War, but I [00:24:00] decided I would go to work for Lautner, and I wanted to work in the field and work with my hands too, as well as my imagination and sensibility. JJ: So, you started working with him at that time? HA: No. I went up there, and I met two people, and one was -- well, one was a student in the fellowship, Wright’s fellowship, and he was working with Lautner, and the other one was Herb Greene, who did the most wonderful drawings. He is really a talented guy. JJ: Now, you mentioned fellowship. You mean the group that -- HA: The fellowship was Wright’s group. JJ: [Wright’s group?]. HA: Frank Lloyd Wright’s group was considered a fellowship and was a [00:25:00] draw right through the war, the second war, and a lot of his people had to go in the Army or went into the service. JJ: Now, I did hear his name, but I don’t know that much about architecture. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: Yes, Frank Lloyd Wright is extremely well known. There’s a postage stamp with him. JJ: [I see. I’m sorry?]. HA: While he was alive, he was a very independent, creative architect who did things that nobody ever saw before, in Oak Park, actually, at the beginning, in 1906 or 13 �’04 [and ’06?] and beyond. He built his own studio and house and carried on in his way, and he built [00:26:00] many buildings in Oak Park, all of which were much different than the usual stuff, and I -JJ: Oak Park, Illinois? HA: Huh? JJ: Oak Park, Illinois? HA: Uh-huh. JJ: Okay. HA: Yeah. He’s actually from Wisconsin. He was born in Wisconsin. He had a couple of years of school at [then Madison?], mostly engineering, I think, and -but he was determined. His mother had put pictures of Gothic cathedrals around his room when he was born to be an architect. JJ: So, now you’re in the fellowship with -- HA: Hmm? JJ: You’re at the fellowship with him? HA: I was never at the fellowship with him. I did not go to the fellowship -- JJ: But these other people were part of the fellowship? HA: -- because everybody usually -- he wasn’t an easy guy to get to -- [00:27:00] he wasn’t -- there were only a few people who got out of that fellowship that really had their own ideas, and one of them was Lautner because Lautner had helped his dad and his mom build a house in Michigan. Yeah, in Michigan. And he was used to the understanding of how to build things, and he invented for the rest of his life. Really for the rest of his life. Well, what happened to me after I left USC 14 �and when I met Alvin Wiehle -- he told me that he was going up to San Francisco, and he and a friend of his -- also a Frank Lloyd Wright fellowship member -- [00:28:00] were going to build a wooden spiral house in Mill Valley, California. He said, “Why don’t you come up and help us build it?” And I thought, shucks, that’s what I’m looking for. So, I -JJ: Spiral in the middle of it, or...? HA: No, a spiral house. A house where the walls went around like this. JJ: Oh, okay. Okay. HA: And so, that really excited me, so I sold what little I had, and I got out of my little, one-room apartment with a kitchen and a bathroom -- a kitchen in a closet -- and it was -- I went. And, in some way -- I can’t remember the other guy’s name. He had access to a house on the highest foothill in [00:29:00] Mount Tamalpais, just above one of the small areas there. No, I can’t remember. I know the name of that area like the back of my hand. I can’t think of it. Well, so, we went up there, and that’s where I stayed. That was at the beginning of the summer of 1952. I stayed up there, and Alvin was up there for one night, and he decided to go down to his friend’s place in Richardson Bay. And so, I had this house. I didn’t know who owned it. It had electricity. I could cook. And then, what happened once we started building that [00:30:00] building and the other guy -- I don’t know why I can’t remember his name. The other guy fell ill. And so, construction stopped, and I went into San Francisco to get a job, and I found Charles Warren Callister, who had a small office in San Francisco, just adjacent to Chinatown. And then, I met him, and I told him what I wanted, and -- oh, I never told you either, before 15 �that, by the time I was 19 and when I was in that fraternity, one of the fraternity friends’ father wanted to build a plumbing supply warehouse and sales office. And so, they asked me if I would make the plans, [00:31:00] and I said, “Certainly.” And so, I made the plans and got him the building permit because you didn’t need to be an architect when the cost of the project was under a certain amount. So, that was my first job, and that building was built, and I would go down there and try to supervise it, this 19-year-old kid trying to supervise it and telling people, “You’re building it wrong.” And they would look at me and say, “That’s the way we do it.” Anyway, I was totally happy that it was built because it gave me a foundation. That all happened before I went off to San Francisco, and -JJ: Now, who was this person in San Francisco? HA: Charles Warren Callister? JJ: Yeah. HA: He was an architect. He was an architect, and [00:32:00] he wasn’t licensed, and he refused to take the exam because he thought it was illegal, and he never did take the exam. I think, by the time he got to be 75, they gave him a license. JJ: Now, [there are a lot of?] construction people that don’t have licenses either. HA: Oh, yeah. Construction people, yes. JJ: Yeah. So, was that common, or --? HA: Yeah, that’s common. JJ: But not the architect? 16 �HA: Yeah, you don’t have to have a license to be a contractor. You have to pay the city or whatever you do, and, to my knowledge, there’s no -- well, there used to be a test. JJ: Well, I think, now, they’re [turning to that?]. HA: Well, everything is getting more and more regulated by, you know, by the city system and by our government. Totally regulated. Regulated to the point where, if you think about something, they’ll put you in jail. JJ: Just for thinking about it. HA: [00:33:00] Bad news. JJ: So, now, you’re going to work with -- HA: So, I went to work for Callister that summer, and I worked for 15 dollars a week. That’s really all I needed. So, I could go and explore, you know, and that’s when I just completely -- that’s when I began my development. I mean, my real development and where nature became much more important to me than anything. Religion had nothing to do with it. It was nature that made sense to me, and I loved it, and I truly loved it. JJ: This was in the ’50s. HA: Mm-hmm. JJ: And -- HA: So, Callister -- I’d let my hair grow. I’d put moccasins on my feet so I could feel the ground as I climbed up to the top of the foothill. I wanted to feel everything, and I wanted to be alive, [00:34:00] and nature was gonna be my source. Well, it came time -- I was three months on that mountain foothill, and I have such 17 �memories of it that will never go away. So, I’d read about Bruce Goff in Life magazine when I was working on Wilshire Boulevard in Los Angeles. JJ: Who’s Bruce Goff? HA: My teacher. JJ: Okay. HA: Well, this is Bruce Goff. This is two of his buildings in here. Anyway -- JJ: [Can you show that to the camera?]? P1: Okay. I don’t know if you can see any of that. JJ: (inaudible). HA: [00:35:00] Bruce was -- JJ: The cover. HA: -- an amazing man. JJ: What kind of magazine is this? HA: This is a Japanese magazine. JJ: Japanese magazine? Okay. HA: And it’s a very difficult -- P2: (inaudible). HA: All right. JJ: So, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: I had known about him, and Callister also knew about him, and he knew more about him than I did, and he said that Bruce teaches architecture with music, and I just -- I had to go. So, I wrote Goff a letter that I sent from the mountain area, and I got a letter back saying -- I asked him if I could come and see the school 18 �and if I really liked it, and I got a letter back saying, “Come ahead.” So, I hitchhiked from California to Oklahoma and [00:36:00] met Goff, walked into the school, which was in a barracks building from the Second World War, the Navy barracks, building 10 miles away from the main campus at the university, which I thought was great. And I walked into the front door and down the long central corridor, and I couldn’t believe what I saw. It was amazing. Kids were doing things there that were never seen. The openness of Goff -- because Goff never went to college, which is unheard of now, but the president of the school interviewed him, and he said, “You’re gonna be the chairman of the architecture school.” Totally amazing. Huh? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) What were these kids doing? HA: Well, they were doing their own drawings and [00:37:00] following the class requirements, but the class requirements were freer. So, everybody had to take a basic design course, whether they went to another college or not, and there was an area that brought young people who were fed up with the schools they were in, and they went there, so -- I still maintain friendships with people there. Okay. So, then, I spent two years, a year and a half there, and then I had to go in the Army. JJ: Okay. So, you got drafted? HA: I was drafted, even after we wrote letters and Goff wrote a letter saying that this boy would be better off if he didn’t go, and -- but that didn’t work. So, I was in for 20 months. I didn’t go overseas. I begged them to send me to Germany or some [00:38:00] place, but they didn’t. They just kept me here, doing -- (pause) 19 �(inaudible) can’t think of the right word, but we would be traveling from Georgia to Alabama and back again and doing these movements in order to make sure that we would outlast an atomic war. So, then, I got out, and I went back to Oklahoma and finished. I finished in 1958. And then, it was time to decide what was I gonna do after that, and how was I going to start? Well, I had worked for [00:39:00] architects in Los Angeles, and I had amassed a certain amount of credits, annual credits, so I could take my licensing exam in Chicago in 1960. That’s when I was first licensed. JJ: So, you moved to Chicago in -- HA: I came home, and I had in my mind, well, I better go home and find out whether I can do the things I want to do in the area that I was born. To me, that was a requirement. So, I had to come here and see what I could do, and I started building right away. Did all kinds of things. Took another license exam in California. JJ: What do you mean, you started building? HA: I literally started building things. I remember doing a church for a Black group on Ogden Avenue, that church in a movie theater. JJ: Now, you did the [00:40:00] design, but when you say building, were you --? HA: No, I was contracting. I was -- JJ: Oh, you were contracting. HA: I was designing and contracting. JJ: And contracting also. HA: And I did that for -- 20 �JJ: You did a church. What else did you do? HA: That was a Black church, and I designed their -- where the chorus would be, which is -- in the movie theater, it was where the screen would be. And I did an addition to a house, [my first project?], an addition to a house in Evanston. Evanston? I think so. And my client was very happy with what we did, and I had fun doing it, so -- I wasn’t licensed at the time I did that, I don’t think. [00:41:00] Anyway, so, then, it came to, well, what do I do? And I got myself involved in being a part of the design team for the Fermilab?. JJ: Family Lab? HA: Fermilab. JJ: Fermi? HA: Yeah. The big organization that was shooting particles at smaller particles and busting then up so they could discover what is the source of our world. It was the largest of the proton accelerators until recently, until five years, six years ago. Now, there’s one in Europe. JJ: So, you were doing projects for them? HA: I was involved in the design team for the central laboratory building, [00:42:00] and we were maybe six of us, five or six of us at the time, and this was a major group of people. Two architects, one from New York, one from LA, a construction company from Texas, mechanical engineers, and we were having a lot of trouble answering the main physicist’s requirements. So, I took the thing, and I designed something, and I thought that it was responsive to their building program. And so, the first design for the central laboratory building was mine, 21 �and I made presentations to the Atomic Energy Commission during the [00:43:00] presentation time and this whole thing, but I couldn’t get the rest of the -- I couldn’t get the engineers to back the method I was using, which is something that’s been used thousands of times now. And, you know, you think that you are the only one who has designed whatever it is that you are designing, but you recognize much later in life that these things are here right now, and you are just tuned into them. You are tuned into that just as you’re tuned into other people and tuned into nature, and how nature grows, and all the diversity, which is really important, which we keep crunching because we don’t understand, and that always -- you know, that’s in the front of my mind all the [00:44:00] time. Well, subsequently, there were 35 other designs for the central laboratory building. I left about a year and a half after I started. So -JJ: Okay, so you said, subsequently, there were some other designs, but you were still working there for a year and a half, doing these designs. HA: Yes. That was how I was earning a living. For a year and a half, I was in that group. I got a wonderful letter afterwards actually mentioning the design (audio cuts out; inaudible) from Wilson, who was the man who was responsible for having that accelerator built. [He was?] really an amazing guy. Fancied himself a sculptor and was not your usual [00:45:00] scientist. He was far more than that. And I would go to dinner with those people, and I’d draw in the things I was interested in and share what I thought I could share with them and felt comfortable. But then, you know, I’m not a wealthy man. I mean, I wasn’t a wealthy kid. I didn’t come from wealth, although my father’s family had money 22 �until they lost it, which is what caused my father to come to America and try to get it all back. JJ: What do you mean? How did they lose it? HA: Huh? JJ: How did they lose it? HA: Well, my grandfather made the money with his -- he made clothes in New York after my father’s side of the family came from Austria. [00:46:00] I don’t know much about the grandfather. I met him only a few times, and I don’t want to get too deep into that story, but he made his money, and, from what I’m told by a cousin I had, he went to Canada, which is where my father was born, and invested, you know. They were well off, and they -- but he invested, and there was a recession, and he lost a lot of his investment, and my grandmother owned and was responsible for a business which brought people [00:47:00] in, and they could live there and have room and board, and she took care of cousins of mine, and she was really strong. She was certainly one of the people that I recognize my father really loved, but he wasn’t very happy with his own father. Well, you know, I got born, and my folks were divorced when I was 10, and we didn’t hear from him for two years. And then, suddenly, we began getting checks because he got drafted into the Second War, and we got Army checks. [That was a big?] -- that’s a long time ago now. That’s [00:48:00] back in the ’40s, early ’40s. So, after the Fermilab and after I got my license, I set about -- JJ: Contractor or architectural? HA: Huh? 23 �JJ: Contractor or architectural license? HA: My architecture license. There is no contractor license. JJ: Okay. [There wasn’t?]. I only mention that because I was told in Michigan to try to get a license for contracting, which would have been a mistake if I did. HA: Yeah, I think so. I don’t think there -- they may have something, you know, that they can test you with, but I don’t know what it is. It certainly wasn’t around when I was a kid or when I was doing that stuff. JJ: I don’t think I would [00:49:00] [do good?] building houses. HA: So, I got married, and both families were there in this big, fancy wedding that was paid for by my wife’s father, and it was a woman I loved, but she had a nervous -she had a -- JJ: What’s her name? HA: Hmm? JJ: What’s her name? HA: Her name was Linda. JJ: Linda. Okay. HA: Linda Goffen was her maiden name. Alan was her married name. And, after about 17 months, she had a nervous breakdown and went to the hospital, and it never -- so, we got [00:50:00] a divorce, and I have a relative who was a lawyer and helped me through all that. There are no children or -- it was really -- I was very surprised, and it was kind of a shock, but she just couldn’t be -- at that time, she went back to school, got her music degree, and went to Los Angeles, and we’d see each other periodically, and she died when she was 50 of uterus cancer 24 �or one of those cancers. I sat with her when she was in the hospital on her painreducing drugs. It was kinda sad. [00:51:00] And so, a couple of years later, I got married again, and that’s when I had my first two children. JJ: What are their names, and what’s your wife’s name? HA: My second wife’s name was Jean, and my daughter’s name is Jessica, first daughter, and second daughter is [Ruthie?], and they are both kinda named after, I think -- Ruth was named after my grandmother. No, my -- yeah, my grandmother. You know, I had already made a place to live [00:52:00] with my first wife. And so, I did all the carpentry in the house and fixed it up to some, you know, decent degree. Had fun doin’ it. And -- JJ: What neighborhood was it in? HA: It was Old Town. JJ: Oh, in Old Town. Okay. HA: It was just west of Sedgwick. It’s kind of an alley there, which has its own name, but that’s where the building was or is. Subsequently, I’ve done projects like it not far from there. Anyway -- JJ: And you built the whole building? I mean, [was it an old?] house, or --? HA: No, it was in a two-flat [00:53:00] frame building facing that street. I don’t remember the name of the street. At least I got Sedgwick right. JJ: (inaudible). HA: And I continued working. I got projects, and I would work up in the attic of that building, doing construction drawings and whatever was necessary for clients. JJ: We’re talking about ’60s now, or...? 25 �HA: We are talking about -- JJ: Just trying to get a timeline. Early ’60s? Late ’60s? HA: Middle ’60s -- JJ: Middle ’60s, okay. HA: -- because I had came here and bought this property in 1969, late 1969. JJ: [00:54:00] Okay, so you came in 196-- HA: Well, actually, I bought it in early 1970. JJ: Okay. From Old Town, you came here, so -- HA: Hmm? JJ: From Old Town, you came here. HA: Yes, that’s right. JJ: Which is right across from -- HA: The church. JJ: The People’s Church, yeah. (inaudible) church. HA: Yeah, well, it wasn’t -- JJ: [Which we call?] (inaudible). HA: -- People’s Church when I came. That started shortly after -- maybe it was that summer, when we heard of the death of the reverend. JJ: Reverend Bruce Johnson and Eugenia -- HA: Yeah. JJ: -- Johnson, his wife. HA: And it’s also when -- boy, I have a terrible problem. It was a kid from IIT. He was in the architecture school, came to my -- I had my office in the front [00:55:00] 26 �store for quite a long time, and he came in that store to ask me if I was interested in getting involved with housing for a group called the Young Lords, and I said, “Sure.” And that’s how it all started. So, I went with the group, which you headed, to sit in -- I think it was the second sit-in for the McCormick Theological Seminary. JJ: No, the first. It was the only one. HA: The first. Okay. JJ: It was the only one, yeah. HA: So, I went with you, and all the people involved, and their children to sit in and not want to move until some decision was made by -- JJ: So, you were in McCormick Seminary? HA: Yes. JJ: During the takeover? HA: That’s right. JJ: Oh, okay. Okay. I mean, I don’t remember everybody. I know that [00:56:00] it was around that time that we met, yeah. HA: Yes. I was there, and I, you know, got -- we left after you got some response from the board -- JJ: Did you stay overnight there, or did you --? HA: No, I didn’t stay overnight. JJ: [You would come over?] -- ’cause a lot of people came home and then came back the next day. 27 �HA: No. I didn’t go back the next day. I thought, at that night, we had found out that they -- or maybe they just said they were gonna think about it that night, but I thought. JJ: Oh, it was Sunday. You probably went there on the Sunday. That’s when we concluded the takeover. HA: They were going to then come up with a -- on the basis of the fact that their place was here and they ought to contribute to the community. JJ: Okay. So, that -- HA: And they apparently came up with some money, which -- JJ: So, you went inside the -- if you can describe how -- what did you see? HA: I sat with everyone at a [00:57:00] very -- JJ: [And what did it look like?]? HA: -- large table, and sat in the room, and listened to everybody talk. JJ: So, everybody was just discussing different things, or...? HA: Well, they were discussing the needs of the people who were there, you and the others, and I realized that this was all happening because they had a sense that, if they didn’t do something, they were gonna be heaved out of the neighborhood. I understood that. So, when there was a -- JJ: And who was this student, again, that went to you from ITT, or do you remember --? HA: I know his name. I know his name. Gee. JJ: If you think of it [00:58:00] later, it’s fine. But, anyway, a student approached you. 28 �HA: Yes, a student came, and approached me, and asked me if I’d be interested in working out housing on some urban renewal sites. JJ: Okay. For the Young Lords at the time. HA: Yes. Well, the Young Lords grew to -- the whole thing grew to a bigger -- [the three churches?], the -- JJ: Okay. Okay, so it was a bigger coalition -- HA: Yes. JJ: -- of people. HA: Yeah, calling themselves the Poor People’s Coalition [Development Corporation?]. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Okay, the -- HA: No, Poor People’s Development -- JJ: Corporation. That’s what it was called. Okay. HA: Yeah. JJ: All right. HA: Bad choice. JJ: [Thank you?]. It was a bad choice? HA: Yes, it was a bad choice. JJ: Why was it a bad choice? HA: ’Cause the rest of the population here, when they see the word “poor,” they will have nothin’ to do with it. [00:59:00] They don’t want to be poor. They all came here and bought property for the first time in their lives and came from Europe 29 �and all kinds of other places, and the word “poor” was not healthy. Not a good choice. JJ: So, it was [not a great choice?]. HA: No, it was honest, but -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: It was honest, but it wasn’t right. JJ: Okay. So, [it isn’t you’re saying it’s dishonest. It was?] -- HA: And then, we -- JJ: But we could have did better in marketing. [That’s what you say?]. HA: Yes. You should have marketed yourself as brilliant. So, what else is going on here? JJ: So, you went there, and you designed -- can you describe the design that you made, or...? HA: Well, what I did was -- JJ: Did you do that right away? Did you design it --? HA: No, I certainly did not know it right away. I found out about the property. I found out about what had to be presented to the [01:00:00] Urban Renewal Board for acceptance, and the city had appointed -- it’s another name I can’t remember. JJ: Well, there was a guy named Ira Bach. HA: Ira Bach. Oh, my God. I couldn’t remember his name. Geez Louise. Give me a piece of paper. (inaudible). I knew of him before I even came to Chicago. He was a friend of -- (break in audio) 30 �HA: -- from Callister because Bach was at the University of Texas, where Callister was a student, and I’d heard of Ira Bach as a planner, as a city planner, and he was Mayor Daley’s planner. So, he -- JJ: Wasn’t he the head of [01:01:00] the Department of Urban Renewal for a while, or the planner? That’s what you’re saying? HA: I think he was only with the city. JJ: Oh, with the city. HA: I don’t think he was ever a member of the urban renewal organization. That was Lou Hill was the -- JJ: Was the director, yeah. HA: Was the director. JJ: So, did he work -- Ira Bach would work under Lou Hill, or -- is that how that worked, or (inaudible)? HA: I don’t know. Maybe side-by-side. JJ: Side-by-side. HA: Separate organizations. So, he was the one who would oversee the drawings we made and made sure that we had taken care of all the things that were required because this whole urban renewal thing was federal. And we submitted everything, and we went through all the presentations to the neighborhood associations. I think there was a [01:02:00] couple of years of that, and -- JJ: A couple of years of going through (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 31 �HA: A couple of years of making -- well, maybe it was only one year of making presentations to the neighborhood associations and to the umbrella group, the Lincoln Park Conservation -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: -- Association, LPCA, and then to the CCC group. JJ: Community Conservation Council. HA: Yes. Community Conservation Council, which was supposed to have people on it that represented all the different groups that lived in the neighborhood, lived in this community. I hesitate to call it a community ’cause it almost never was a community, and we continue to make sure that it doesn’t happen because politicians and the economy are only happy to separate. JJ: So, how was Ira Bach in terms of the [01:03:00] plan? Was he against it, or --? HA: No. Well, he wasn’t either -- he didn’t come out and say he was for or against it. What happened is that I would -- living here and would oversee or look at the community of very diverse people, and we had -- this building over here, we had an Italian group that had been there for three generations. And then, we had a Mexican grocery store, and the woman there really took care of the street as well, and took care of the kids in the neighborhood, and was very active across the street from the church that you finally occupied. And I realized that people were -- JJ: [At New Methodist Church?], yeah. HA: Yeah. Yeah. [01:04:00] I realized that people were helping each other, and that whole social world seemed to make a great deal of sense to me, and I wanted to 32 �make these buildings that I designed for the urban renewal sites of which they were for and including one that was nearly a block long so that we could have 12 units on each floor, and it was a three-story affair. And what I did was to place 10-foot streets on every floor. JJ: Ten-foot -- HA: Ten-foot-wide streets or decks. JJ: Decks, okay. HA: So that kids could play on the decks and not necessarily on the street and for people to take care of each other’s kids. JJ: How many stories was it? HA: Three. JJ: Three stories, okay. HA: Three stories. So, it was all designed for the public part of the apartments to face the street, and then to separate those with [01:05:00] closets all the way across each apartment and then put the bedrooms behind it so the street noises wouldn’t be too difficult. But the idea was it was a semi-shared life design with everybody coming home from after work or whatever they did during the day, and have this deck to sit out on in decent weather, and have children play up there, and have one person, you know, be a babysitter for all 12 units if that was the case. That was what I had in my mind. These days, it was called a socially focused project, or a socially focused design, or a shared lifestyle design, which is now coming back, [01:06:00] and I remember my California days, when the [favelas?] in South America -- there was one design I had read about in a 33 �magazine that I’d really enjoyed, and that was, instead of designing some new, fancy place that would sort of be like what was generally accepted, the architect had designed this new project using the concept of the [favelas?] so that there were places for people to go and watch TV, not have to have a TV in their house or couldn’t afford it but -- that all made such great sense to me. You know, it wasn’t a question of running out, and working your tail off, and then buying everything that you’re supposed to buy to have in your house. That didn’t make any sense to me. [01:07:00] It was an act of making people get along. Well, I got terribly disappointed during the project for not just -- I was disappointed at first because, when it came time -- oh, I want to add something there. Do what you can with it. We were told by the local urban renewal office that we were going to be accepted. The CCC voted in favor of our project with only one abstention that I remember. So, we all thought we were going to be the developer, and I was kinda happy about being the architect. JJ: And this is the group from the community that’s supposed to represent the community, they told us that [01:08:00] it was gonna be accepted? HA: Well, during the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JJ: [The city official representative?] -- HA: No, no. It was from the local office of the Department of Urban Renewal after the CCC had voted in favor of our project with only one abstention. JJ: Okay. HA: And, at that time, I was doing work for another organization, the Construction Aggregates Corporation, and I went to Jamaica to look at a housing system. And 34 �I was really coming back thinking, well, just got this one more hurdle to get through, which was the Board of Urban Renewal and their vote, and I had been supported by Walter Netsch, who was the only architect I could get to do this kind of support because Walter had a sense of what was -- you know, what should be [01:09:00] done and was a very inventive architect who passed away -- I don’t know, about four, five years ago. And he was standing over here, and the man who was teaching at Northwestern University and wrote a book called Proxemics, which was about the distance between people of different ethnic backgrounds or different [local?] backgrounds, like Germans would talk to each other, and they have to have a lot of space in between. South Americans would talk to you like this. JJ: Closer? HA: Closer. Much closer. But he wrote that [01:10:00] book, and he was there -- who was also supporting the project. And we had what? Eleven editorials and a great many newspaper articles about this shared lifestyle method. And we were all getting ready to talk, as you know. JJ: Was Ira Bach there too, or no? HA: I don’t remember seeing Ira. JJ: Okay. Okay. All right. HA: And so, we’re waiting for -- because, since it was a federal program and federal money that was going into this, there had to be this meeting where everybody had a chance to talk either for or against. JJ: This was at City Hall? 35 �HA: Hmm? Yes, this was at City Hall in the Alderman’s Chambers, and we were waiting to talk, and, suddenly -- JJ: Was this the Housing Committee or --? HA: The [01:11:00] Urban Renewal Board -- JJ: Board, okay. HA: -- was way down in the center of the space, sitting at a table with the board members all around it, and we were waiting for -- everybody was waiting to talk. We were all in the perimeter, standing there, waiting -- JJ: Now, how many people were there? HA: Oh, I’m sure there’s at least a hundred people there, all waiting to talk. And then, suddenly, we were told that the board had already voted, and they voted for the other team. And that’s when the one guy who was part of our group jumped over the rail and raced down to the center, where the board members were, and, of course, he was picked up by the [01:12:00] cops and used his head to open a door to take him out of there, and he went to the hospital. JJ: How did you feel about it? HA: I felt bad. I felt tricked because one of the political ways of making people relax is to tell ’em they’re going to win, and then they don’t -- they’re far more relaxed and not involved as much because they believe what they’ve been told, and that -- it is a political trick. So, I felt depressed. After all of those years, and the time we did things, and -- [01:13:00] so, I was building a building out of concrete, one of my favorite materials, and it wasn’t gonna burn down, and it was going to be difficult to destroy. Well, I was learning. I mean, would I do the same thing 36 �again? I’d be interested in the social aspects of a building where we might be able to make community, and community has suddenly become really important, and here I am, on my property, building a building that nobody’s ever seen before, and it’s taken 20 years for people to get used to it. And I have my property up for sale because of 2008, when the economy dropped. Then, I wasn’t getting very much work, and the work that I did have wasn’t going forward. [01:14:00] So, I’ve been struggling since 2008 to now, and I have a couple of projects now, and I continue to work on things that I feel are important, like that 47th and Michigan Avenue project. In some way, I’m going to get this idea across. JJ: So, after that, what -- you know, everybody’s feeling down, depressed, and -- HA: Well, everything started to popcorn, and people started leaving, which is -- JJ: People started leaving where? HA: Well, you weren’t leaving. You went further north, and -- JJ: [That’s right, we went up to?] -- HA: Yes. JJ: [We had a training school?]. (inaudible). HA: [01:15:00] And you ran for alderman (inaudible) -- JJ: In the North Side. HA: -- Award in the North Side. JJ: (inaudible), yeah. HA: Yeah. 37 �JJ: Okay. Now, some other things happened. What about the thing with People’s Park? Was that before or after? HA: That was before. JJ: That was before? Can you describe --? HA: Yes, People’s Park was -- JJ: ’Cause there was also Buckminster Fuller’s geodesic -- HA: We build the dome in this yard. JJ: Okay. What was that? I don’t understand the geodesic dome [by?] Buckminster Fuller ’cause I don’t know -- I met him. HA: Yes, you did. JJ: [But I didn’t know him?]. HA: Yeah, gave you a kiss. JJ: He gave me a kiss and everything, and I didn’t [met him before?]. HA: That was great. He -- JJ: [Who was he? Who was he?]? HA: I’ve heard him talk. Before all of that, I’ve heard him talk twice, and, if he has an opportunity [01:16:00] to talk to a group, he never talks for less than four hours. Amazing man. And he was a whole systems thinker. Not just what it looked like, not just how it functioned, but how the whole thing worked together. In my estimation, the greatest source of whole system-type thinking is just to look at your body. You know, as long as you’re reasonably healthy, your body does everything. It relates to everything. That’s an amazing whole system that we are, and buildings should be designed in the same way instead of a lot -- well, 38 �that’s all coming now because we are in [01:17:00] very difficult straits. We cut down mountaintops for the sake of cheaper coal. We’ve got more gas wells in the United States. People go up to their faucets in the kitchen and light a match, and the water lights up because of the gas. We’ve screwed up the oceans. We are really bad, and we don’t care, and most people won’t even think about it. JJ: So, what? Mr. Fuller is a whole person? HA: He is a whole systems person. JJ: Whole systems person. HA: And what he did and all the things which he developed were based on that. JJ: And he designed the -- HA: Well, he started doing buildings with a dome for the sake of weight and for less materials. So, we would be doing buildings that didn’t weigh nearly [01:18:00] as much, and he always loved to say, “Well, how much did your building weigh?” So, buildings (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: But wasn’t his design accepted for (inaudible) --? HA: Montreal World’s Fair? JJ: Montreal World’s Fair and the -- HA: Oh, yes. JJ: They were talking about the [moon?] and everything in there. HA: That’s right, yeah. Course, they all leaked. JJ: They all leaked? HA: Yeah. Oh, those things move. Everything moves in those things. And so, they always had to deal with stopping the leaks. 39 �JJ: So, all these geodesic domes leak. HA: All of the ones that were made back then, yeah, did leak. JJ: But he’s the one that designed it for the Montreal Fair, you’re saying? HA: Fuller is, yes. He designed the big -- JJ: Buckminster -- HA: -- almost a complete sphere in the Montreal World’s Fair. JJ: Okay. [01:19:00] And so, we had a -- HA: As well as an automobile with three wheels called the Dymaxion car. The Dymaxion houses he designed. The stuff that was [pertinent?] was kind of taken in by the United States military and used for quick enclosures. They flew him out to Alaska and further north ’cause you already had a lightweight something you could carry underneath a helicopter. JJ: So, why did he come here, to the church and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HA: He came because of Bill Becker, who was one of his students who knew about the meeting that was taking place, and, somehow, he -- JJ: Talking about this meeting in City Hall? HA: No. JJ: Okay, what meeting? HA: No, the meeting that Fuller spoke -- at [01:20:00] the church. JJ: Okay. All right. HA: He knew about that meeting, and he picked Bucky -- JJ: Fuller. HA: -- at the airport and brought him here. 40 �JJ: Oh, okay. Brought him to the meeting. HA: And Fuller always loved grassroots people and always loved people who were trying to do something that made more sense, at least to us. And so, that’s why he was there. And I gave copies of the magazine to -- JJ: I think he also, at one point, lived in Lincoln Park. HA: He did. JJ: [Years ago?]. HA: Yes, he almost committed suicide here. JJ: Oh, he did? HA: Because his first child died, and he sort of almost didn’t want to go any further, and the story goes that he went to Lake Michigan and was getting ready to jump in, but something came to him, and he decided that he was gonna do this kind of work for the rest of his life. [01:21:00] He didn’t care about business, and he wasn’t a businessman. He was an inventor. He was somebody who was open. His system was open to the things which made sense, and he worked that way with those things, inventing what made the most sense. He did maps. He did automobiles. He did housing. He did metal housing. He would suspend things from cables. That’s the way he was, and he was a nonstop talker. He could talk -- you know, he spent maybe an hour talking to the people at the church. I doubt whether they understood much of what he said, but [he?] said, “We don’t need water. We can take showers with gas, and we don’t have to pay for water into the city, and [01:22:00] all that stuff.” All of these things always have to face people who don’t want change. I grew up thinking that, if you showed something 41 �to someone that they’d never seen before, they ought to be overjoyed to see that. Oh, but they’re not. They’re terrified, and I can’t figure it out. Why wouldn’t you want to take a look, at least, and try and understand whatever this was that you’d never seen before? So, when I built this studio -- it’s a passive solar studio -- people would walk down the alley. They’d look at that piece of junk across the way. That’s it. And, you know, I knew that that’s the way it was, but did I want to be that way? No. I didn’t want to be that way. JJ: [01:23:00] Now, you went into the (inaudible) the McCormick Seminary takeover. HA: Yes. JJ: And the Young Lords were there. HA: Yes, and -- JJ: How did you feel? Because [it’s said?] they were a former gang. Did you feel threatened? And you lived right across the street from the church. So, [how did you feel?]? HA: No. I didn’t feel threatened. I felt that this was something that I’d never done before. And so, I was a little concerned in marching over there with you and the group to do the sit-in, but I did. I think you were -- I wanted to do the work, so probably would have done anything to get the work. JJ: Okay. So, your [idea?] was to get the work. [There was at the time?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: [01:24:00] Well, then, it was. Yeah. I’m an architect. I wanted to practice what was important to me, and, you know, you gave me the opportunity to do it. 42 �JJ: And, I mean, you came in 1969, which was really after the community was really -- most of them were evicted by that time. HA: Oh, they were, yeah. JJ: Yeah, I mean, ’cause that started, like, in the ’50s, the Puerto Rican (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: I understood that some of the parents of the group, the Young Lords group, owned some property. Not very many, but they did own property. JJ: Yeah, they did own property, but, like, you said you were tricked. My perspective, my thinking, is that they were tricked also because it was prime real estate. HA: Oh, yes. Everybody was tricked. JJ: I mean, I’m not putting words in your mouth. HA: No, everybody was tricked. The real estate brokers would knock on everybody’s doors here and tell [01:25:00] ’em, after they’ve been here for three generations, “If you stay here, your property values are gonna go down, so this is the right time to sell. Best time in the world to sell.” And they bought this stuff for nothin’. JJ: So, you saw that, or you heard that people were knocking on doors? HA: Oh, yes. I was. I was. JJ: What about taxes? You’re probably [aware about?] taxes. Was that going on, or...? HA: I think taxes were quite low. JJ: Oh, really? HA: Yeah, back then. A lot lower than they are now. 43 �JJ: Well, yeah, no, they were lower then. HA: Yes, lower then. Yes. JJ: They started going up. HA: They started going up. JJ: How significantly did they go up? HA: I don’t know. [01:26:00] I’m an old man, so I’m a senior citizen. And so, my taxes don’t really change much on a business zone, so I’m not suffering from the taxes. I’m just suffering for not having very much money. JJ: (inaudible). HA: Yeah. JJ: [Basically?]. But what about your neighbors? HA: I don’t know enough to say. I’ve heard lots of people griping about their taxes, and they had been going up steadily. JJ: And perhaps that’s not an issue. You know, a lot of people lost their houses, and -- so, I’m trying to figure out how -- HA: Yeah, that’s because -- JJ: What were the pressures? HA: -- they don’t have the money to pay the mortgage. It’s not just the taxes -- JJ: Mortgage. HA: -- which does it. It’s the fact that, in order to keep what you’ve got, you have to continue paying [the fee?] to the mortgage banks, which I’m doing. JJ: Okay. I see. [01:27:00] Okay. HA: No, and it has been tough for me. 44 �JJ: What has been the change from the time that you moved here in ’69 until now? I mean, what kind of changes did you see? HA: Well, the changes which I see is that the diversity is gone. The different kinds of people aren’t here, and, back in the early days, everybody had ideas and were interested in producing them or finding ways to do them, were interested in listening to other people talk about their ideas. Now, it’s just money that’s here. It isn’t really anything else. It’s only money. But I do get the sense that some new commercial places [01:28:00] are coming that -- well, of course they are. Anything commercial is here because of the chance to sell what they can sell. So, it is essentially money, and, you know, I designed an [arcade?] over Armitage Street, going from Halsted to Sheffield, and taking the cars off the street, and having a place to walk underneath a translucent cover, and providing landscaping and seating, and you just took the cars off at certain times during the day, and people then -- then, the development of the business world would relate to that arcade, and it would draw people here so that the economy would be better, and [01:29:00] there would be a social aspect to the location. JJ: So, is that going through, or no? HA: No. I keep talking about it and showing it to people, and I showed it to the businesspeople at a meeting, and they were more worried about, if you build it, will that hurt my business? Fear, you know. It’s just fear. But, if we did it, their business would grow again if they could get through it, and they wouldn’t have to shut down ’cause the arcade didn’t go from touching building to touching building on either side of the street. It left five feet of open space so that you could fix 45 �your facades. And then came the [land marking?] of the facades of all the buildings on Armitage Street. The facades, the face piece, the faces of the [01:30:00] buildings, you couldn’t touch. You had to keep it, except I didn’t. I already changed the face before. It was land marked, and I finally got them to agree that I could remodel the front building in the way that produced a good solar-efficient building. So, I managed to get that, you know, 70 percent done. It has a roof on it that allows sunlight into the building, and I get it eight hours a day. I only get five hours a day in this building, but I get eight hours a day in that building. But I don’t have the money to finish the clay plastering of the upper floor, and just finishing that, putting a finished floor down, and finishing the bathroom. [01:31:00] That’s all that’s left, plus some sun shades on the building. JJ: So, you’re more into solar now, or [you’ve always been?]? HA: Yeah. That was something that’s -- because of nature, I realized, after years of understanding, that we’re not paying any attention to nature, and we don’t see the value of it until now. Now, there’s a lot more movement in that direction. We know that nature is a healer, and we’re now providing hospitals with natural environments so that you could get out of your room, and people have been known to heal twice as fast -- or faster. It’s called biophilic. And, now, in [01:32:00] architecture, you’ll see walls of things growing up the walls that can even be food if you can handle it. JJ: So, this is what you’re -- the biophilic is what -- 46 �HA: That’s one of the things I am interested in. That’s why I have this garden, so that I can see it, and I can always be aware of it. I have bamboo. We just picked boxes of pears off the pear tree. JJ: You have a pear tree? HA: Yeah. It was loaded this year. Amazing. It had more pears on it than I can remember. And I have grapes growing up there too. And then -- JJ: When I was growing up, they had a rooster next door to you. The community (inaudible). I’m serious. I’m not joking. They actually had a rooster in that -- so, they were [01:33:00] natural. They were naturalists at that time too. HA: When you were growing --? JJ: When I was growing up here. HA: Oh. Oh, sure. JJ: I mean, I’m serious. [That’s actually?] -- HA: I know people who have chickens now. JJ: Oh, they still have -- they do have chickens? HA: Not here. On Saint Louis. JJ: I’m not being facetious. They did have -- HA: No, right. Right. JJ: -- rooster. I remember [walkin’ and hearin’ it?]. But, so, you have a pear tree, and the -- HA: I have grapes and a pear tree, and I planted bamboo, and a lot of the original planting was done when I was married the second time and I bought this building, but a lot of it, I’ve added since I’ve been here. 47 �JJ: Okay. I wanted to ask you about Reverend Bruce Johnson, and then we’ll probably wanna do some final thoughts ’cause it’s -- [considering the time?]. HA: All right. JJ: But Reverend Bruce Johnson -- because you were here, and you lived here when [01:34:00] that happened. HA: Yes. JJ: So, what was the climate or the feeling of people in the community at that time? I mean, can you describe how the community was taking that? I mean, I was even incarcerated, and the day that it happened, the bishop [bonded?] me out of the jail to come to the wake. HA: Oh. Oh. Oh. JJ: Yeah, I had been [almost bond jumped?], but they gave me an extra charge of bond jumping because I was late for court. So, I had to get bonded out, but it’s all right. I know that it was about two months before Freddy Hampton of the Panthers was killed. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- HA: Yeah, and I knew all those people too, and I was in the building that he was killed in the day after it happened. JJ: So, you went there -- HA: I went there because I knew the lawyers. JJ: Okay, [01:35:00] right. Oh, you mean Dennis Cunningham. HA: Yeah, Cunningham and -- JJ: So, can you describe the community? Because, here, you’ve got the lawyers. You’re here. There’s (inaudible). There’s other people, the Young Lords Church. 48 �I mean, this community -- can you describe what you saw when you first got here in terms of the --? HA: Well, I can only tell you that I saw what was here, and the things that we did -- we were part of the [parent school?]. That’s the first school that was literally owned and governed by the parents of the children, and it started with pre-school. JJ: This is a separate thing, right? You’re talking about the day care center? HA: I’m talking about this neighborhood. JJ: Okay, the parents school [in?] the neighborhood. Okay. HA: Yes, I’m talking about -- it was basically the idea Dennis Cunningham and his [01:36:00] wife -- JJ: Okay. Oh, that’s right. HA: -- that started the school, and we became part of it, and my girls were in it from pre-school through -- well, one went through eighth grade. One went up to eighth grade, and the other was four years younger. The school folded before she -- she had to go to a public school for a few years before she went to high school. But we were part of that, and part of all the meetings, and part of the squabbles, and the thing would start, and then it would fold up, and then it would start again, all in different locations, and even that church was used as [01:37:00] a place where -- in the back area, that was a place where the parent school started up again. So, it was quite a time, you know. It was when people were wanting to do things -- the people that we knew, the lawyers and people interested in a decent education, were actively involved in. We were. I saw that. And I knew, you know, three generations of Italians next door. I knew the woman 49 �who ran the grocery store on the corner of Dayton and Armitage, and I didn’t know a whole lot of other people. I [01:38:00] [would grant you that?] the drugstore was here, and the Old Town School of Music was here, and I was aware of that, and I was on -- (pause) that’s terrible. I can’t remember names. At the moment, I can’t remember those names. Wait a minute. I wanted to write something down. I -JJ: You were talking about Ira Bach last time. HA: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Ira Bach. JJ: Yeah, Ira Bach. Yeah. HA: You know, he used to walk. He lived way on the North Side. He’d walk to work at City Hall every day, rain or shine. JJ: What do you mean? He walked from here to City Hall? HA: He would walk from way north to the city. He lived somewhere in the North Side. He lived way on the North Side. JJ: And why was he important to you? HA: Well, he was important to me [01:39:00] because he was the city planner, because I had heard of him before I came to Chicago, because he was well respected. That’s why. JJ: And did you meet him personally, or --? HA: Yes, I’ve met him personally. JJ: Okay. HA: Yeah. Even if I can’t remember his name, I remember [him personally?]. JJ: Okay. Now, my understanding is that he was for the plan -- 50 �HA: I think he -- I -- JJ: -- even though he couldn’t say it. HA: No, he couldn’t say it, but I was -- all of our editorials and newspaper articles were very positive about what we were doing, very positive about a grassroots development and the social aspects of it. I didn’t mention that, during that whole process, I had to go before the Urban Renewal Board [01:40:00] prior to the final vote, and I heard one of the -- they [quizzed me?], and one of the -- whether it was the head of the Urban Renewal, Lou Hill, or not, I don’t know, but it was a politician who told me that, because of the decks I had built -- you know, they didn’t think that was gonna work, or it was gonna leak, or whatever, and, you know, what could I say? ’Cause I was too young, and I know what I should have said now that I’ve have the damn experience. I should have said, “What the hell do you know about those things? You’re just a politician.” Fuckers. I hate politicians. JJ: But do you really think it had to do with the deck, or it had to do with -- it was also supporting --? HA: No, they always picked on the buildings to put something they don’t want to have happen. [01:41:00] They blame it on the building. They don’t blame it on people. JJ: Right, ’cause my impression was they didn’t want it because it was our plan. It was something coming from the people of the community and the poor people [or whatever?]. Like you said, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 51 �HA: Well, yeah. They’re not gonna say, “We don’t want it there because we don’t want your people here.” They’re gonna say, “The building doesn’t work, so it’s probably a bad choice.” They might -- JJ: Do you think it’s what happened, or am I putting words in your mouth? HA: I’m sure your words are also part of the truth, but I’m also sure that, at that meeting, what was said out loud was not that we don’t want you. It was that the building won’t work or the building is -- nobody -- whatever it was. JJ: (inaudible). HA: Didn’t look like one they were aware of or -- and it didn’t even have anything to do with that. It just [01:42:00] had something to say about -- that the building wouldn’t work, and I should have just blew my mind, and I should have made that comment right then and there. It probably would have been a big mistake to do it because that would have made it even worse. JJ: But, since that time, you’ve seen that the diversity has -- HA: Oh, the diversity has reduced itself to no diversity at all, and people still living in their boxes, and fixing them up, and spending a lot of facade money, and, now, we have all these new buildings here, but at least all the walls are the same material. I mean, they used to build them with the -- only the facade was what you wanted, and the rear was something cheaper because it was in the rear. It was kind of like doing a [01:43:00] Renaissance front and [Marianne?] behind. JJ: Any final thoughts? HA: That’s a Frank Lloyd Wright statement, by the way. JJ: (inaudible). Okay. Frank Lloyd Wright’s. Okay. 52 �HA: I’ve forgotten what -- he didn’t use the word -- JJ: A quote from him. Okay. HA: He didn’t use the word Renaissance. He used a different work. So -- JJ: Final thoughts? HA: Hmm? JJ: Final thoughts? HA: Final thoughts. (pause) Well, one thought I have is that that situation I was part of was something I had no previous experience [doing?], and it seemed as though [01:44:00] it made sense. You were asking for people to participate in their community, and that was way back -- that’s 52 years ago, which seemed sensible. But the neighborhood has changed to such an extent that -- I don’t know. I had this problem with what buildings should be like. I couldn’t stand the land marking aspect of the front and leaving people to change the insides the way -- it was like giving [01:45:00] yourself a facelift while your cancer is still grabbing you. To me, that’s what that is. I think that living is wonderful and requires a investment (audio cuts out; inaudible). You know, I’m not talkin’ about investing your dollars so that you can spend it after you die. I’m not talkin’ about that. I’m talkin’ about a real future with humanity involved, whatever they are. That’s what I’m talking about. I don’t know what to say. It’s not as though I had a lot of control over it, over the changes. Most of the people that used to live here are gone. There’s really only one or two of us [01:46:00] that have been here all these years, and I’m here because I built this, and it’s my environment. And there are a couple of other people that are doing things in a positive way, and I 53 �finally got people from this community to come here to the studio to see the passive solar aspect of the building. I’ve been published many times. This building has been published in various magazines and books, so -- and I’m going to give a talk some time in -- well, November 2, along with a lot of other people who feel the same way in different areas. I know quite a few of them, and I’m really happy to do that. [01:47:00] So, I think we all have to keep at it, and there’s no other choice. But what can I say to you that relates to -- well, I wouldn’t be the same person I am now without having the experience I had with the Young Lords and the act of wanting to make a place, which is what you were doing. JJ: Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 54 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/57fe7e87e84a77651b6c12da3f0e0b59.mp4 1ccceed034e4067ad3ba09897cb08f59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Howard Alan vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Alan_Howard Title A name given to the resource Howard Alan video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alan, Howard Description An account of the resource Interview of Howard Alan on August 22, 2012 by José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. In the video, a man in glasses sits in front of a bookshelf and speaks to the interviewer who is off camera. Howard Alan is an architect who specializes in organic architecture, passive and active solar and alternative energy conservation. He grew up in Chicago and first learned architecture in high school before going on to attend the School of Architecture at the University of Southern California. In 1969, Mr. Alan invited and brought the world renowned architect, Buckminster Fuller, to the People’s Church to meet with Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords. The Young Lords and the Poor People’s Coalition of Lincoln Park (which Mr. Jiménez was also their president) hired Mr. Alan to draw up plans for a multi-unit, affordable housing complex, as a concrete cooperative alternative to Daley’s Master Plan; a plan which was displacing Latinos and the poor from across Chicago’s near-downtown and lakefront neighborhoods. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- (interviewer) Audio Transcription Center (transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/86bc18479d064e5b9c40b55f30031d91.pdf b791bf441d3a05f14c6e32b0c6428574 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Vicente “Panama” Alba Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/14/2012 Biography and Description English Vicente “Panama” Alba is a Young Lord who was born in Panama, immigrated to New York City in 1961, and now lives in Puerto Rico. He worked many years as an organizer with Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) of the AFL/CIO, advocating for immigrant and undocumented workers in the solid waste and recycling industry. During the Attica Rebellion, September 9, 1971, he supported the inmates in their negotiations. Mr. Alba has been involved in two takeovers of the Statue of Liberty, first supporting the occupation and the planting of the Puerto Rican flag on the Statue as part of a campaign to free the Puerto Rican Nationalist prisoners and the second in support of the struggle of the people of Vieques. A fervent admirer of Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Mr. Alba continues to advocate for self- determination for Puerto Rico and has been involved with the Nationalists and other parties, including several community organizing campaigns to free political prisoners, including Oscar López. Spanish Vicente “Panamá” Alba es un Young Lord quien nació en Panamá, migro a la ciudad de Nueva York en 1961 y ahora vive en Puerto Rico. El a trabajado por muchos años con la organización Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) de AFL/CIO, quien defiende los trabajadores inmigrantes y los indocumentaditos en los �industriosas de recicla y las eliminación de los desechos. Durante la rebelión de Attica, (Septiembre 9, 1971) Señor Alba soportó reclusos en sus negaciones. Señor Alaba ha sido parte de dos tomadas de la Estatua de Libertad, la primera es plantando la bandera de Puerto Rico en la Estatua en parte de una campaña para libertar los Nacionalistas Puertorriqueños que fueron encarcelados y el segundo fue en soportar la lucha de la gente de Vieques. Un ferviente admirador de Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Señor Alba continua abogar por autodeterminación por Puerto Rico y a sido parte de los Nacionalistas y otros grupos, incluyendo unas organizaciones en la comunidad que hacen campañas para libertar los prisioneros de política, uno siendo Oscar López. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, now we’re going to do it again. Name, date of birth. VICENTE ALBA: Vicente Alba, called Panama, and I was born April 3, 1951, in Panama City, Panama. JJ: So, you were born, so when did you come to the States? VA: I went to New York in 1961 at the age of 10. And I think it’s important to understand that I went to New York with a lot of dreams, a lot of illusions about where I was going to. And that very quickly turned into a nightmare. JJ: What about your parents? Did they come with you? VA: My father, my father was already in New York. My mother came and my sister came with me. JJ: And your father’s name? VA: My father’s name is Tito -- was Tito Alba. JJ: He’s passed away? VA: He’s passed away. [00:01:00] My mother also passed away; name is [Espere Alba?]. And my sister Maria. JJ: Your sister Maria? VA: And I. So, we settled in the southeast section of the Bronx. The place was very segregated. JJ: We’re talking about what years? VA: Nineteen sixty-one. JJ: It was segregated. 1 �VA: Very segregated. I mean, south of the Bronx River was all Black and Latino. Where my parents got the apartment, which is just north of that, in the southeast section of the Bronx. It was mixed, but right -- JJ: [San Risa?]? VA: Soundview. JJ: (inaudible) [00:02:00] VA: Soundview was mixed, and right north of there, right after the overpass to the Bronx River Parkway, it was white. And if you got caught in that side of the tracks, you were done. JJ: And when you say white, Italian, Italian, Irish? VA: Italian Irish. You know, as I said, I came very naïve, very sheltered. JJ: What do you mean, sheltered? VA: Sheltered, I mean, my, you know, my parents were very protective of me. I had no sense of the streets. But I had a very rapid transformation. By the age of 14, I was totally rebellious. JJ: So, you came from very sheltered, [what do you mean by that]? VA: Let me explain. I’ll do that. I, [00:03:00] you know, I had encounters. For example, I started rebelling first with -- what happened to me was this. I didn’t even know how to speak English at the time. I was about 13. The police raided my neighborhood, there was something called the TPF Tactical Police Force, and they were the riot cops, the riot police. When they were not involved in a siege in a community where there was upheaval, they hit Black and Puerto Rican communities throughout the city. One day they came to my neighborhood, and it 2 �was early summer, and they grabbed all the kids and took us into a backyard. And I had never experienced anything like this. These [00:04:00] white cops, they was big mountain boys, huge white guys, calling me dirty fucking Puerto Ricans. And, you know, cops, they used to carry rubber hoses, and beat you with, and blackjacks. The cop is beating me with a rubber hose that’s calling me a dirty Puerto Rican, so I’m trying to get out of an ass whipping, I said, “Officer, not Puerto Rican, Panamanian.” He says, “I don’t give a fuck what kind of Puerto Rican you are, I’m just whipping you.” And I got very angry. I said, “Motherfucker, I am a Puerto Rican. Whatever that is, I am now.” You know? Um, you gotta remember the time that it was. It was a time of a lot of social upheaval. I mean, it was the time of Malcolm X, the time of Black Power, the time of the antiwar movement -JJ: Sixty-four, sixty-six? [00:05:00] VA: -- ’62, ’63, ’64. And, you know, the youth revolution, the antiwar movement, the Black Power movement, the Civil Rights movement, all of these things are happening. JJ: And when you come in here from Panama, you already (inaudible)? VA: No, I’m not. Well, I mean, that’s another story. Because see, in Panama, my grandfather owned a boarding house. And my first social consciousness had to do with the fact that there were a lot of Cuban exiles, young men, mainly college students, that were exiled because Batista wanted to kill them because they were supporting Movimiento 26 de Julio. So, that was my first recollection as a child. And Fidel was a hero in Latin America. You know? [00:06:00] He was a hero, 3 �until he declared that he was a Communist, and then all of a sudden, he was the devil, you know? But he took on a dictatorship backed by the United States when there were a lot of dictatorships backed by the United States, and he beat them, and took over and created a society that was for Cubans. So, that was my first political experience. And my grandfather, my grandfather had been an anarchist, and fought against Franco in Spain. So, I had those things, you know. But when I came to the United States, none of that made any sense to me, initially. I just got very rebellious, became very self-destructive. I mean, some of us were self-destroying from gangs, others were self-destroying from drugs. [00:07:00] I turned to a lot of drugs. JJ: So, you were involved in a gang, too? VA: I didn’t join the gang, but I was doing a lot of drugs. JJ: (inaudible) you got into the drug scene. VA: I got into this drug scene, very heavy. JJ: And you’re talking about hard drugs, too? VA: Very hard drugs, because I was shooting heroin at the age of 14, you know? Um, I got into a lot of the rock scene. I went to the Fillmore East, I went to Woodstock, you know, the heavy drugs. And I was very confused. I mean, I was just angry. Angry because the world was really fucked up. And I had come to this place that was supposed to be the home of democracy and the land of the free, and it was hell. You know? JJ: You were already a little bit (inaudible) angry, anyway. VA: Sure. 4 �JJ: And then the drug scene and all that is putting you down, putting you down, [00:08:00] more or less. Or at least, you know, people using drugs were put down at that time, (inaudible). VA: Yeah, but I mean. I was at the point I didn’t give a fuck. I frankly didn’t give a fuck. I stopped giving a fuck about everything. JJ: (inaudible) VA: You know, I used to see the Black Liberation movement, the Black Power movement, I used to see Malcolm X on TV, then the Black Panthers hit the scene. I didn’t know about these other movements in the United States, but I knew about the Black Panthers. And I was struggling with my mind that I want to join the Black Panthers. JJ: When was the first time you heard about the Black Panthers? VA: In the newspapers. The shootouts, everything that was going on. When they marched on the governor’s, you know, the Capitol in California, all of that caught the press. And, you know, [00:09:00] I didn’t speak good English, but I read, and I watched the news. And then I’m into the drugs and I’m thinking, you know, like, I gotta do something. The world’s fucked up. I gotta do something. Um, and then one day, it’s around Christmastime, I put on the TV, and there’s this group called the Young Lords took over a church in El Barrio, New York. And I said to myself, damn, now we’re in the fucking scene. Finally, we -- you know, we’re now a part of all this that’s going on around the world, the Vietnam War, people are fighting all over the world and -- but, you know, and I would have joined the 5 �Panthers. But Young Lords came on the scene. But I had a problem. Drugs. I struggled with that. The Young Lords -JJ: For how many years? VA: I struggled since I was 14. Now I was 19, [00:10:00] 18, 18 or 19. JJ: And you were shooting every day. VA: That’s how I got into that, yeah. JJ: That’s how you got into it. VA: I was evicted. And I saw the Young Lords for that takeover of the church, and I’m struggling with this. And then the Young Lords with the Puerto Rican Student Union held a conference at Columbia University, and they called for a demonstration to the United Nations. That was October 30, 1970. And the kids from all the schools, just pouring out that day to go to this demonstration. I was so hooked. I went, but I got there late. I got to the march late. So, when I got to the march, the people that I was supposed to hook up with [00:11:00] already marching. This was the biggest demonstration that had come out of our community. I had been to marches against the Vietnam War. I had gone to Washington to the Pentagon, on the bus ride. But from our own community, at least 10,000 people marched down from El Barrio or to the United Nations. And there were three demands. Top demand was (Spanish) [00:11:27]. The second demand was the freedom of Nationalist prisoners. And the third demand was an end to police brutality. And all of this just touched me, in a way. Now I’m not Puerto Rican, but I had come into a city where there were maybe 5,000 Panamanians, where there were maybe 10,000 Dominicans, and 20,000 6 �Cubans, [00:12:00] and 1 million Puerto Ricans in the City of New York. So, the Puerto Rican people defined what being Latino was. You know what I’m saying? And the Young Lords coming into the scene were saying the Latinos are now in the movement. Now there’s a face to our -- and after that demonstration, I struggled a couple of days. And then I had met a woman by the name of Cleo Silvers, who was a Black Panther. And I had never forgotten that. One day I ran into her and decided we would sit down the street. She always used to [kicker?] to me, you know. And one day we’re talking, and she points, and says, “Look over there.” And when I did, it was cops selling dope out of a patrol car. And she says, “See that’s where you’re giving your money. You hate the cops? Look [00:13:00] who’s taking your money.” And that stuck with me, you know? And I decided that I had to be one thing or the other. I couldn’t be a dope fiend and be a revolutionary. And I decided to give the revolution a try. Had to get off the dope. So, I took my last shot of dope, broke my works, and went up to the Puerto Rican Student Union. Cleo, I’d spoken to her on the phone, and she had (inaudible). What she had not told me was the next day, which was November 10th, they were going to take over Lincoln Hospital for the second time. It was a takeover by the Young Lords, and it was a takeover to begin a drug abuse treatment center. JJ: Cleo was in the leadership in those [00:14:00] days? VA: Cleo was in the leadership of this movement. JJ: Of taking over Lincoln Hospital. VA: Yes. 7 �JJ: With the Young Lords. She was a Young Lord, too? VA: Let me explain it to you. There was something called HRUM, Health Revolutionary Unity Movement. And Cleo had been working with the health workers and working around health issues that had been involved with the first take over Lincoln Hospital. And she was, at that moment, in a process of transitioning from the Black Panther Party to the Young Lords. The Black Panthers were involved with the first takeover, but they had the Panther 21 case, and they were like, totally tied up in defending themselves by this point. Cleo was working with HRUM, so she started -- and was recruited into the Young Lords because they were doing the work that she wanted to do. And so she called me. I go the next [00:15:00] day. I’m kicking a dope habit. And, you know, I go to Lincoln Hospital, and they had just taken over the hospital two hours ago. You know, police have surrounded the place, I mean, people was picketing outside, and I walk into the scene, and I said, “This is it. This is beautiful,” you know. So, I literally kicked the dope habit while starting a drug program for other addicts, although I wasn’t taking Methadone, I just quite cold. But that was something that I had decided to do. I was testing myself. And that’s how I came to become active in the movement. I worked for like, it was a matter of weeks, two weeks, three weeks, with the detox program exclusively. And then on Saturdays, I went out to do lead testing, TB testing, with the Young Lords HRUM, [00:16:00] and they asked me to join the Lords. I didn’t know it at the time, but see, there was a group of people that knew who I was that were involved with the Young Lords, Mickey Melendez’s father, Richie Pérez’s father, 8 �and my next-door neighbor, were really tight. They were three merchant seamen. That’s how they knew each other. So, they knew where I came from. So, when I go to the -- and then, there’s another very important thing I need to... I had gotten -- [00:17:00] I was in Monroe High School. They kicked me out of Monroe High School. JJ: Monroe. VA: Okay? Richie Pérez was the youngest teacher in Monroe High School. And me and Richie had become good friends. And then he had quit his job at Monroe, joined the Young Lords. That summer, before the demonstration, July the 4th, 1970 I never forget that day, because it was a full-scale riot in Orchard Beach in Bronx, and we battled with the police for hours. We were just angry, you know? And in the middle of this battle, I ran into Richie with a squad of Young Lords that had been on the beach selling pamphlets. Now we were battling together against the police. I said, “My God, this is my high school teacher, guys, doing battle with the police.” It doesn’t get any better than that. You know what I’m saying? I was very angry. [00:18:00] I think I was angry since the day that the copper whipped my ass. I had kept that inside of me. And, you know, the builtup racism, (inaudible). I almost got killed by a gang of white boys because I was going out with an Irish girl. I mean, these kids beat this shit out of me. I was saved by a Black bus driver. You know? Um, I had all this anger, and that’s what motivated me at the moment of joining the movement, was anger, you know? I thought that we have to do something to change the world. This world that we were living in, it’s no good. Okay? Um, one of the things that happened 9 �to me immediately is that I really began -- and I think it helped me overcome the drugs and everything -- was that I really got to understand, [00:19:00] by working and becoming a Young Lord that it was -- revolution was not just something that you waged against the system. Revolution was something that you waged within yourself. It was about changing. And one of the first challenges was the challenge about machismo. Chauvinism. You know, it was two, three weeks after I kicked dope, I saw women, and it was like, “Oh, baby, come here. I want to talk to you.” JJ: And (inaudible) VA: Yeah. And there was a sister that called me a chauvinist pig. And I was highly offended her calling me a pig. And she ranked onto me because of my conduct throughout the course of the day. It was a Saturday, and we had gone out to do TB testing and lead [00:20:00] poison testing, you know. And I was out there, “Hey, baby, come here, I want to talk,” you know, it was like -- and she really cut into me in such a way that I began to really question myself and the way -- and to understand that you could not talk about liberation while you were oppressing other people, you know? And that stood with me to this day. But it opened my mind to also understanding that I had to challenge everything that I had learned before, all the values, everything. And at the center was the sense of individualism that society teaches you, you know, and that revolution is about fighting for everybody else, sacrificing yourself to fight for everybody else. That’s what Che Guevara talked about; you know? And I began to read. Now they had kicked me out, [00:21:00] they didn’t even let me drop out of high school. 10 �JJ: So, it was more -- nothing to do with -- it was against individuals. VA: Exactly. JJ: More about team. VA: Exactly. About the people. JJ: Collectively. VA: Loving your people is being willing to live, fight for, and even die for, for your people. JJ: And you say Che? VA: Che taught that, talking about socialism and man, the booklet, you know, talking about the new person. And so I joined the Young Lords, you know? And what I understood the Young Lords to be when I joined was a revolutionary Nationalist youth organization. We were about making revolution by the state, the government, for the liberation of our people. And that fight, you know, [00:22:00] sadly, we did not understand at that time that it was a long-term struggle. We thought it was an immediate struggle, because the world was on fire. You know? I mean, people were fighting for liberation around the world. And so we thought that revolution was imminent. Liberation was imminent. We were in a process of revolution. Some things happened in the Young Lords in New York that really put me on my path. Because the other thing about Young Lords for me, when I joined, was this. I had an attitude, you know what? They created the Young Lords, it’s all good, so just tell me where the fuck we gotta go to do war, you know? Like, that’s all. I don’t want to hear all this. JJ: I’m ready. I’m ready. 11 �VA: Yeah, I don’t want to hear all the study this, no, no, you tell me where to [00:23:00] go, I go do it. Fuck it. It’s done. Very simple attitude. Except the summer of 1971, I’m in the Young Lords now just a few months, six months, seven months, very intense months. The Puerto Rican Day Parade is an event that had become highly commercialized and very abused. It was touted as a celebration of Puerto Rican-ness. But the biggest contradiction was that the police led the parade. The police kicked our asses all day long, and then they want to lead our parade. That ain’t happening. [00:24:00] The Young Lords made a call and got the whole Puerto Rican movement to agree to set up an operation to take over the front of the Puerto Rican Day Parade. It was a very poor political decision, simply because, you know, while you’re studying guerrilla warfare, you know, you never take on a greater enemy head on. But they decided to do that. And I was one angry man. I was [the defense ministry?], I was like, “Yo, yeah, that’s it, that’s me. Whatever we’ve gotta do, let’s go do it.” And I was so sold on this idea, although I had nothing to do with the decision, because I was not the leadership. I was so loud. I was the soldier. I was the cadre, that we were trained to go do battle. We [00:25:00] called them Suicide Squad. We were going to take on the police head-on, on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan. And the day before the parade that Saturday was our last training session, we were like running down to Randall’s Island to train, and I slipped on the ramp, and I fell, and I scraped my whole back raw. And it’s very hot. June. So, they sent me back to the headquarters. They patched me up, and they put on medical tape, and, you know? And I’m allergic to medical adhesive, and welts 12 �pop up on my shoulder. And our minister of defense, Juan Gonzalez, comes to me, he says, “You’re off the Suicide Squad.” And that was my first act of insubordination. I said, “You know what? You purge me on Monday, but Sunday, [00:26:00] I’m kicking some cop’s ass. Have absolutely no doubt about it. I’m going to war tomorrow. On Monday, you could purge me. I don’t give a fuck. I’m out of here. I’m done.” Okay? I went on the Suicide Squad. It was a very poor decision, and it was a very poor decision, not because we had no chance of beating the police. It was a poor decision because while you can be suicidal about yourself, you have no right to bring the wrath of the police on your community. The cops beat people all up and down Fifth Avenue. There was no question about whether you’re a Young Lord, not a Young Lord. If you look Puerto Rican, they’re going to bust your ass. And very rightfully, the people were very angry with us the next day. [00:27:00] And that day changed the relationship of the Young Lords in New York with our community. And I know that is something that we never recovered from, all right? But it also brought some other problems, and it was that all the sudden, there was nobody in the leadership that took responsibility. There was no evaluation afterwards, no criticism, or some criticism. You know, I had been put very rapidly in charge of the Bronx office, and I’d recruited people from that office to join this action, we go do battle, we get our asses kicked. The whole relationship between Young Lords and our community, [00:28:00] people that came by our office every day the day before would not come into our office. They would go across the street the day after. And there was nobody to talk about this to. And it became very difficult in 13 �the Young Lords. I had recruited [Tony Copeland?] into the Young Lords who brought a fella named [Deleone?]. I had recruited a lot of people. I recruited some former gang members from Bachelors into the organization. And, you know, now people were saying -- I couldn’t respond to anybody. What I did not understand is that there was already a process of transition. A lot of things that happened. First of all, in early ’71 the Young Lords engaged in this campaign called [00:29:00] “Ofensiva Rompecadenas,” Break the Chains. And it was a campaign that sent Young Lords from the United States, to Puerto Rico, where we are today. It was also a very [focusing?] idea, because people were sent here that didn’t have a sense of what the political reality was, the social reality, what the economic reality of this place is. They were Puerto Ricans, but you were urban ghetto Puerto Ricans. The children, okay, of the people that had migrated there before, you know, years before. And, um, we didn’t have a sense about what was going on here. [They needed?] the independence of Puerto Rico, but that’s where it ended. I mean, we had no ties to the communities here. None of that. [00:30:00] We came from the community there. And I think it’s really important to understand what Young Lords were. JJ: So, what happened at that time? VA: well, you know, what happened with that was that a lot of human resource and material resources were drained to make that move to Puerto Rico. And then it fell apart in Puerto Rico. And people were abandoned in Puerto Rico. JJ: Abandoned? What do you mean? VA: Abandoned. They were left here, you know? 14 �JJ: So, there was no money paid for the trip. VA: Yeah, and offices were opened up in Aguadilla, in Caño, and then, you know, people here wrote letters to send to committee saying, this is a mistake. We’re not being effective here. We can’t. And they were, you know, dismissed. And people just walked away from the organization. [00:31:00] JJ: They were dismissed? VA: They were irrelevant. But there were other problems also growing. And I think it’s important to understand that, see, unlike Chicago, where the Chicago Young Lords originate in a street gang, New York was a coming together of two groups, actually, one from El Barrio, one college students from Old Westbury. And at one point it was very beautiful because it was really representative of our community. We had gang members, ex-gang members, college students, high school students, some workers in the organization, teachers. But with the [00:32:00] tendency towards intellectualism, there are some people that gravitate to the theoretical studies. And one of the dynamics of the American left, of which we were a part of, was this process of building a new revolutionary communist party. And then there was the infiltration within the Young Lords, [this shift?] that led to certain things being pushed. JJ: What do you mean infiltration? VA: Infiltration, like, you know, we uncovered a number of police agents operating. And some people that were never proven to be agents, I think, I know in my heart were [00:33:00] agents, because they led the organization to destruction. Part of that move was this move to become a party. And in order to do that, everything 15 �that had made the Young Lord successful was shut down. All our community offices were shut down. All the, you know, all the work that we did in the community, the housing work, the anti-police brutality work, you know, the antidrug all that stuff was abandoned, because everybody was supposed to abandon all the work and study Marxism, Leninism, and organize workers in the workplace. And so the incident at the Puerto Rican Day Parade, in retrospect, played right into the hand of that because there was no caring about what had happened with the community. You know, at least none [00:34:00] that I saw. And, you know, the Young Lords were being transformed into this thing called PRRWO. And many people, some good people, got sucked into that. You know, um, I remember real clearly that it was, I believe, late in 1972 or early 1973 that there was a call made for all the Young Lords to report for this conference that we were going to have at the Hunts Point Palace. And I went to report, as instructed. And it was a dance hall, and it had been decorated for this [00:35:00] Young Lords conference. There was a lot of Young Lords in there. And the place was decorated in such a way that you had Marx, Lenin, Engels, and Mao. And one of the brothers got up and says, “You know, I really have no problem with the posters that are here. The problem that I have with the posters that are not here. Where’s Don Pedro? Where’s [Lolita?]? Where’s [Letansas?]?” And it was, in my view, an intellectual takeover of what our movement had been. Now everybody has to study Marx and Mao, Engels, dialectical [00:36:00] materialism, but the thing that had distinguished us was our love for our people and served the people in our communities, that was gone. I went to that 16 �conference, and I called the national, told them to go -- because I used to run the Bronx office at Cyprus Avenue. And [Olgie?] had already been pulled out of there. You know, people had been -- Cleo, she had been sent to Detroit to work with Black Workers Congress, all this movement to get people out of the community and to build this party. You know, they had these meetings with the LLN, with all these other organizations, and all these discussions, [00:37:00] and we got orders to study this, study that. And after that conference, I said to myself, “You know, this is not what I joined. This not what I came to join. I came to join a revolution, but I don’t see it happening here.” And I walked away. In walking away though, I -- you know, and it was also about growing up politically, because I found myself saying, “You know what? I cannot allow people to make political decisions for me. I gotta take political responsibility for myself.” It was no longer about you tell me where to go and I go do it, fuck it. That’s over. I have, you know, I gained some tools to think for myself. And one of the things that I saw was that there was a thing that had been abandoned. [00:38:00] For example, there was a case in New York called the Case of the New York Five, and it was Black Panthers and one Young Lord, accused of bank robberies and killing cops with the Black Liberation Army. And now, with our movement collapsing, it was like we were abounding them; you know? Nobody wanted to talk about this case. The PROs didn’t even want to touch it, because it was not a proletariat struggle, it’s a revolutionary Nationalist struggle. So, I joined with some Black Panthers that was formed, [The Committee to Free the?] the New York Five. And two of the five brothers were Boricuas. One of them was a 17 �member of the Black Panther Party, and the other was his brother’s blood brother, who was in the Young Lords, Gabe Torres and Francisco Torres. So, I began doing that work. And I had hooked up with my [00:39:00] compa-- Mickey Melendez, who was doing the work around the freedom of the Nationalists. And so I continued doing that work, to free up political prisoners. And then I became an independent political activist at that point. I have never stopped. In 19-- I think it was the fall of ’75, I got word that they had kidnapped Richie Pérez. Richie Pérez was one of those people that stood [withdraw?]. And I lost contact with him. But then I heard about his kidnapping and his torture of him and Diana Caballero. And by that time, because he was doing the work around the Nationalist prisoners, Mickey Menendez [00:40:00] and I had come to Puerto Rico and gotten sworn in as members of the Nationalist Party in Puerto Rico. Mickey and I went to a bar here in El Condado to have a couple of drinks that we waited for the time to go to the airport to return back to New York. I never forget this place. It was a basement bar, called [El Barrito?], and we walked in there, and who do we run into? Richie Pérez and Diana Caballero. They were in the darkened corner. When they saw us, they got very paranoid, because they didn’t know who to trust. Since I had been a high school student of Richie’s, I approached him. I said, “Whoa, we ain’t come here to hurt you. It’s just accidental. But here’s my number. When you feel up to, [00:41:00] give me a call.” And about a week later, back in New York, I got a call from Richie, and we reconnected, and we continued. We began doing the work around Nationalists, all of that. We had a meeting of former Young Lords who denounced the 18 �kidnapping and the tortures. The kidnapping and torture was orchestrated by Gloria Fontanez (inaudible). She had, through a series of purges, okay, purged Juan Gonzalez, who used to be her compañero, had purged David, had purged Yoruba Guzman, had purged all the people in the leadership. JJ: All the Central Committee, (inaudible) of the Young Lords. VA: Exactly. And [00:42:00] um, ordered the kidnapping and the torture. JJ: And how did she get that type of following? (inaudible) VA: That’s a very interesting -- because one of the things about her, Gloria Fontanez approaches or hooks up with our movement. She was a hospital clerk in Gouverneur Hospital in the Lower East Side. And because of the work through HRUM, she had become chairwoman of HRUM, and through HRUM, joined the Young Lords. That’s a key question. How did this hospital clerk gain all of this political sophistication and Machiavellian maneuvering and ability? You know, she was a very skillful organizer, but she -- I mean, she has skills that you need to question where they came from. [00:43:00] I say she was a highly trained agent. And she married [Bruce?] Wright, who was another agent. And they took control of the Young Lords when they converted it to PRRWO. JJ: And when she split up from Juan Gonzalez, married this guy (inaudible). VA: Yeah. JJ: And you’re saying that he was an agent. VA: He was an agent, so was she. JJ: On what grounds are you saying this? VA: Because of everything she did, okay, was to destroy the Young Lords. 19 �JJ: What did she do to destroy the Young Lords? VA: She climbed the ladder of leadership -- dismantled the leadership -- JJ: She was able to climb the ladder of leadership from Juan Gonzalez because he was a leader. One way -- one way. VA: It was more than Juan Gonzalez. JJ: Okay, then what other ways? VA: You know, she had the skills that we as a young organization didn’t have. And she presented herself with those skills. JJ: She [00:44:00] was working in the hospital (inaudible). VA: How does the hospital clerk get all this organizing skills? Right? That’s the question. You know. She was very skillful in setting people against each other and dismantling the leadership of the Lords, one at a time, turning everybody first against one, then against the other, and, you know, until she was in complete control. Once she took complete control, then the kidnapping and the torture began. That’s not a mistake of a revolutionary. That’s classic COINTELPRO operation. Same thing that happened in the Black Panther Party. JJ: You’re saying she was trained as an agent. VA: Or she learned these skills from where? [00:45:00] JJ: When you talked to her, when you knew her, she was very skillful. VA: Very skillful, very eloquent, very pretty. JJ: And you’re an organizer, yourself. VA: Yeah. JJ: So, you can see if somebody’s an organizer, really. 20 �VA: Listen, she was my leader when I was in the Young Lords. But she did things that were so authoritarian, like she had the authority to tell you how to run your personal life. And those are things that I began to question very early on in saying myself, this is something wrong here. This woman tells me that I have to tell my compañera to get an abortion because the party is having too many babies. My response was, the party ain’t having no babies. My compañera and I are having a baby, and she ain’t getting an abortion. But that was, [00:46:00] like, you know, if I would have allowed her the authority to follow up on her orders, she would have controlled my life. Then I would have been a puppet of hers, like the puppets she used -- listen, when Richie Pérez was kidnapped and tortured, people who did it were people that he recruited into the Young Lords, that he trained. And then she took over and ordered them to kidnap and torture him. That’s very skilled. JJ: But she was not just a control freak. You think she’s an agent. VA: That’s my belief. And I’ll say it to her face. I’ll tell you, the last time I saw Gloria Fontanez was about three years ago, when [Lori Delagron?] died, and I was in New York, and we organized a memorial for Lori Delagron. And I was in charge of security, [00:47:00] sadly, for her. Because Iris Morales was there and approached, he says, “Look, Gloria’s here.” And I went up to her, says, “Excuse me, I need to talk to you outside.” And then her boyfriend came. “What’s the problem?” I said, “You’re with her? Then you and me gotta go outside, too.” And I took them outside, and I threw them out of the place. JJ: This is Gloria. 21 �VA: Oh, yeah, yeah. JJ: And her boyfriend, too. VA: And her then-boyfriend. JJ: [Wilbert?] Wright? VA: No, no, this is somebody else. She’s been through a hundred boyfriends. That’s the truth. The truth. JJ: Because who was her boyfriend again after González? VA: Her first boyfriend was Juan Gonzalez, and she went to, Don Wright. JJ: Don Wright. VA: Um, so that’s -- JJ: What do you know about Don Wright? What about him? VA: I don’t know anything about Don Wright, because when he came into the scene, I had left the Young Lords. I was doing political work independently. JJ: So, you were -- [00:48:00] VA: Anyway, as far as Young Lords, I would say the following. That in the United States, we have been and sadly to say, there have been other organizations that have risen since and tried to erase the legacy of the Young Lords. The Young Lords have left a lasting legacy for our community. You know, we were very young. We lacked a lot of political insight that, you know -- but we left. I mean, you and I were talking before, for example, about electoral politics. The Young Lords, see, we created a political movement that gave our community a sense of the [00:49:00] power that we had. What we lacked, at least in New York, was the insight about understanding this, this was a long-term struggle, and because we 22 �saw it as an immediate struggle, for example, we never considered electoral politics in New York, but we left the vacuum that was moved into, people, poverty, pimps moved into that, you know, the other (Spanish) [00:49:26] of the world, and you know, the [Napoleons?] on the Lower East Side, people who capitalized on that movement, that sense of empowerment that the Young Lords brought. You know, one of the things I learned in the Young Lords was that their commitment is not to an organization. It’s to [00:50:00] a cause. And, you know, that cause that brought the Young Lords into existence is still very much alive. So, I continue to struggle. JJ: Which is what? (inaudible) VA: Which is the liberation of Puerto Rico, which is the equality, the fulfillment of all of our rights, our human rights, our democratic rights, our civil rights in the United States and anywhere in the world. And you know what, to the creation of a better worlds. In Puerto Rico and outside of Puerto Rico, wherever we go. The Young Lords taught us to live like Che Guevara. JJ: So, after the Young Lords folded (inaudible). VA: Well, [00:51:00] what happened was that we were carrying on the campaign for the freedom of the Nationalists. In 1977, I was the first person arrested and accused of being a member of the FALN. Actually not the first, because David Pérez was arrested in my house. He went to my house, and they arrested him when they were trying to arrest me, and they -- I went into hiding, and I surrendered a week later, um, because they didn’t have anything. They tried to 23 �pin a bombing on me in New York, of the Mobil Oil building. That was on August 8, 1977. JJ: Okay, 1977? VA: Yeah. And so, you know, they dropped charges on David, they kept harassing me. They rearrested me in March of ’78. JJ: But David Pérez was arrested? VA: He was arrested in my house. Yeah, he came knocking on the door, the feds [00:52:00] grabbed him, you know? And they actually put his picture in the papers with my name on it, you know? (laughs) JJ: So, they were actually looking for you. VA: They were looking for me. They raided my house. JJ: (inaudible) a few Young Lords were connected to the (inaudible). VA: Yeah, so then back in ’78, in March of ’78, I was rearrested, spent six months in jail. I went to trial five years later, I was acquitted in 45 minutes, okay? But, you know, the time I spent in jail and all the drama that surrounded that case, again, with accusations of being a member of the FALA. JJ: You were acquitted. VA: I was acquitted by a jury in 45 minutes. They went in there, locked the door, said, “Not guilty,” came back down, go home. You know? Um, [00:53:00] in that process, we freed the Nationalists, the Nationalists were freed in 1978. I was out on bail at the time. JJ: And how did you [feel?]? 24 �VA: Well, there was an international campaign that -- we did a lot of work in our community, educational work, educating people as to who these people were. And for a long time, people are saying, “You guys are crazy, they are never going to be released,” because we’re talking about four people that shot up the Congress of the United States and the fifth who tried to kill President Truman, okay, in the cause of court deliberation of Puerto Rico. And our people kept telling us, “You guys go waste your fucking time, but these guys ain’t never coming home. [00:54:00] Lolita Lebrón and them are going to rot in jail.” But we were able to force the US government, with very strong mobilizations in our community, we took over the Statue of Liberty in 1977, put the flag on its crown, demanding their release, and the support of the Cuban government. JJ: Wait a minute. So, when you took over the Statue of Liberty, you went upstairs, and -- VA: That was a Young Lord action carried out by three ex-members of the young roads, Richie Pérez, Mickey Melendez, and myself. JJ: So, Richie Pérez, Mickey Melendez, and you, yourself? VA: I was not arrested because I was out on bail. I had just gotten out of jail. JJ: What exactly did you (inaudible) talk about that now, if you can. I mean, without getting into any details [of that action?]. VA: What we did was -- JJ: Because if you do that, I’m being an accessory. I don’t want [00:55:00] that. (laughter) 25 �VA: We had been going, over a number of years, going to Washington, demanding the freedom of the Nationalists, the United Nations. And in ’77 that summer, we were in the process of another mobilization to Washington. JJ: Was this meaning a demonstration? VA: A demonstration, yeah, a massive demonstration, taking thousands of people to Washington and demanding the freedom of the Nationals. Um, and, you know, it was like something that had kind of like ran its course. It was beginning to lose energy. So, Richie, Mickey, and I, we were coordinating the committee, and we met. And it was Mickey Melendez who said, “You know what?” I mean -- no, the deal was, I said, “We gotta do an action, a militant action. We gotta take this to the next level.” [00:56:00] Now remember, already, the FALN was putting, you know, armed actions, you know, armed propaganda actions in Chicago, in New York, in Washington, wherever. But we said, we need to now collaborate with this effort by a militant mass movement action. And Mickey says, “Statue of Liberty.” Right? So, we took turns going to case the place, you know, like one day, Mickey went, another time Richie went, another time I went, and to assess it, you know, how it operated, lay of the land, how many guards, all of that stuff. JJ: And you were kind of planning, it was just a protest, basically. VA: Sure. Whatever you say. [00:57:00] JJ: (laughter) VA: Then what we did was that each one of us took on the responsibility of developing a list of activists who he trusted, okay? And who had to trust us, 26 �because we agreed not to tell anybody what we were going to do. The only three people that knew was Richie, Mickey, and I. JJ: And this case is closed, right? VA: This case is closed. And we would check with each other of our list. You know such person? What do you think? Is he trustworthy? Yeah. Should they be approached? And we, one on one, approached the individuals that got arrested there, and asked them to make a commitment to get arrested for the freedom of the Nationalists, without knowing what they were going to do. [00:58:00] So, once we had a -- you know, we prepared, we planned, everything was done, we told people, the three teams, each one of us led a different team at different parts of city, like the people that I had on my list, meet me down in Times Square at seven o’clock in the morning. Then somebody else met in Queens, you know, like that. And we converged in Battery Park in New York City. JJ: (inaudible) VA: Battery Park is in the tip of Manhattan, across from the Statue of Liberty. And everybody got on the boat except me, [Yana Pérez Gallejero?], and a third person, [Cesar Torres?]. I was in charge because I was already on bail. Like, we had a big fight about that, like, “I’m going in there,” they say, “No, you’re not.” I said, “Yes, I am.” [00:59:00] And they overruled. They didn’t allow me to get arrested, because if I would have gotten arrested again, I would have never gotten out of jail, you know? So, Richie and Mickey led the group of people, they got on the first ferry onto the Statue of Liberty Island, and then ran and got into the Statue of liberty to prevent the other tourists on the boat to get in, so there 27 �wouldn’t be a problem of kidnapping or any of that crap, right? And they shut down the island. They took it over. You’ve gotta remember, back then, there weren’t cellular phones available to us, okay? So, we already gotten the telephone numbers to all the public phones in the Battery Park area. We took control of the phones. The thing that got interesting was that we had assessed that the arrest was going to happen pretty soon after the takeover, because there were -- [01:00:00] you know, they were going to come in and get people arrested. What we did not count on was the fact that the police, in fact, were fighting among themselves. The NYPD was fighting with the FBI and the US Parks Department police who had jurisdiction. So, this thing started dragging on for hours and hours. They shut the power off in the Statue of Liberty; they shut off the water. We hadn’t counted on that, okay? We should have planned for that possibility, but we never did, frankly. So, it was very funny, because since I was the person in charge outside, I called the person that controlled our bank account, said, “Take out all the money in the bank and find me a helicopter. I’m going to rent a helicopter do a food drop on the ledge of the Statue of Liberty.” And then Yoruba Guzman was a reporter for Channel Five News [01:01:00]. We’re in the middle of shopping. I got people shopping, he comes and tells us that the feds just banned any flights 10,000 -- around the Statue of Liberty. So, we killed that idea, you know? Anyway, the people were out there without water, food, cigarettes, were dying, going nuts, until late that evening, when they finally settled their fight and then went in and arrested everybody. JJ: What happened to the people that were arrested? 28 �VA: People who were arrested were taken to court -- JJ: Who were some of the people that got arrested? VA: Mickey Melendez, Richie Pérez, [Madeline Gonzalez?], a number of activists, okay? Twenty-seven people, I think, were actually arrested. Yuri Kochiyama, you know, people that we knew and trusted and trusted us. Because, you know, (inaudible) I don’t know what you’re playing, what are [01:02:00] you dragging me into, but I’m gonna go do it. You know, these people did, and, um, it was very successful, because we never -- we were concerned that we will be able to hold the Statue of Liberty long enough for the New York press to be able to cover, right? What happened was this thing was so long, this became the front-page story around the world. I’m talking about we got paper clippings from Belgium, from Russia, from China, from England, from France, everywhere. It’s a beautiful picture of the Puerto Rican flag draped over the crown of the Statue of Liberty. Um, eventually, people were released, and after making a statement in the court, we paid a fine. Interestingly enough, some of those people, like the MLN, [01:03:00] okay, who have been a Marxist-Leninist organization, in discussions with the PRRWO, and who was now pretending to be the sole movement, denounced the action. They didn’t like it because they weren’t in control of it. It was, frankly, another moment that I’m really proud of. It was a Young Lords action that was planned by Young Lords, even though we were no longer an organization in New York. We continued, and 1981, we founded the National Congress of Puerto Rican Rights, almost a year traveling around the country to different -- 29 �JJ: How did that (inaudible)? VA: [Mecca?] was part of that, (inaudible). We went to Chicago, we went to Connecticut, went to Pennsylvania, you know, all the areas of high concentration. [01:04:00] JJ: Who was (inaudible)? VA: Okay, actually, that idea was put -- came from Juan Gonzalez, our former Minister of Defense. He had been purged from the Young Lords, was living in Philadelphia, and was active in local community work in Philadelphia. JJ: He was purged from PRRWO, right? VA: From PRRWO, right. JJ: Not really the Young Lords. The Young Lords had turned, changed into -- VA: Exactly. JJ: So, now this is the national what? VA: The National Congress of Puerto Rican Rights? And that had been as the result of -- I mean, there’s some of the things that is more important to mention here. In 1975, there was a big rally in New York City at Madison Square Garden for the independence of Puerto Rico. JJ: I recall that. VA: It was something that was pushed by the by the Puerto Rican Socialist Party. JJ: (inaudible) [01:05:00] VA: Exactly, Mecca had joined the PSP, all of that. And I think it was probably the last hurrah in a lot of ways, of the mass movement as based in New York. Things had begun to rapidly fall apart. Young Lords were dead, (inaudible) 30 �JJ: What year was this? VA: Seventy-five. JJ: And actually, Chicago had the campaigns (inaudible). But publicity wasn’t coming out. VA: Right. That day, the day of the rally at Madison Square Garden, was also the first day that the FALN took mili-- did the bombing. JJ: A militant stand, yeah. VA: Okay, in support of Puerto Rican independence and defending the freedom of the Nationalists. I think that all of that changed the character of our movement in New York. [01:06:00] So, then we went to the campaign for the freedom of the Nationalists. And like I said, it was a lot of efforts, from petitions to the Cuban government, put all that energy and all that strategy together that got the release of the Nationalist prisoners in 1978. But our movement was pretty decimated by then. You know, the PSP falling apart, the Young Lords didn’t exist. JJ: Why do you think this fell apart? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: Because COINTELPRO was a major -- the Counterintelligence Program by the federal government, had created all these divisions in the organizations. JJ: So, one of the things they were doing, you’re saying, [01:07:00] was divisions, creating internal divisions. VA: And destroying organizations. I mean, the way that the Young Lords were destroyed. 31 �JJ: And I mean, like, for example, you’re in the Central Committee of the Young Lords of New York, a strong regional chapter of an organization, right? And the entire central committee is being purged. VA: Decimated, yeah. JJ: Is being purged by new people that come out of nowhere. VA: But it’s not just the purging of the leadership. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: Understand that the strategy was to develop the kind of politics that justify us cutting ties with our own community. How sick is that? JJ: But that’s another -- exactly, that’s one of the strategies. (inaudible) VA: And I think, in retrospect -- again, I can’t prove this, but that plan -- JJ: (inaudible) VA: -- the plan to take over the front of the Puerto Rican Day Parade, somebody with political astuteness [01:08:00] planned that shit out, because that was a part of our department. That was a part of our destruction. JJ: I don’t understand, the Puerto Rican parade? VA: Listen to me. You’re a revolutionary organization. You study urban guerrilla warfare tactics. Who comes up with the idea to take on a larger police department, 35,000-person police department, well-armed, a superior force, taking them head on? JJ: So, they created a riot. VA: Yeah. And who lost? The Puerto Rican people lost. Who lost the Young Lords lost. Okay? We broke, we lost our ties with our community. People that loved 32 �us the day before resented us the day after. That was politically planned. Somebody. I’m not saying that all of the leadership planned it that way, but somebody knew what they were doing. JJ: Well, it is very clear that COINTELPRO [01:09:00] would infiltrate and create riots. I mean, they had agents who (inaudible) to create riots. So, here’s a good example of a riot, (inaudible) Young Lords of New York were involved in. VA: It’s a piece of history that people do not want to talk about. JJ: I understand (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: Let me say this, okay, for the record. There is one documentary -- there’s two documentaries about the Young Lords that I know of, El Pueblo Se Levanta and Palante Siempre Palante! Neither one of them mention the Puerto Rican Day Parade. We need to study the history of the Young Lords. We need to study that history. JJ: And what year was that? VA: Nineteen seventy-one. June. Second Sunday of June of 1971. JJ: And this was a strategy to try to take over the Puerto Rican Day Parade. And [01:10:00] they created a riot. VA: Listen to me. The Young Lords initiated this call, and the whole movement bought into it. At the end of the day, the ones they got blamed was just the Young Lords. And our relationship with our community was never the same. Now, somebody’s responsible for that. 33 �JJ: But another situation is, I mean, there’s been ups and downs in any movement. So, they could have picked back up again, the Young Lords, but they were not doing any door-to-door work. VA: Cha-cha, listen to what I’m saying to you. This strategy around the Puerto Rican Day Parade is implemented at a time in which the Young Lords have an overall plan to convert to PRRWO and to close ties. All is working together. JJ: Exactly. So, that was a (inaudible), don’t you think, or what do you think? VA: I’m saying that this is all part of a strategy to destroy the Young Lords. It all worked together to the same goal. [01:11:00] JJ: It takes me a little while to comprehend, but I see what you’re saying. So, the whole strategy is to get to an ideology, is to get an ideology that’s divorced you from the masses. VA: Sure. JJ: (inaudible) VA: Sure, what was left of the Puerto Rican Day Parade, we closed down the offices anyway, so there was no relationship. What was left was a group of people intellectualizing revolution or pretending or trying to intellectualize revolution. You know? The struggle between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks and all that other craziness, that was totally irrelevant to the life of our people. The reason the Young Lords were [01:12:00] successful because we were the pulse of our people. When we stopped doing that, it was over. JJ: That’s really good, the pulse of our people. To you, what does that mean? 34 �VA: That means that we live amongst our people, we struggle with our people, we listen to our people, we respect and love them and earn the right to lead them. Not proclaim the right to lead them, earn the right to lead them. Because we are them. We don’t come from outer space to lead them. We come from them. JJ: And what other (inaudible)? VA: No, bro, listen. We’re still not free. We’re still a colony. Colonialism is the enslavement of a nation. What you see here is a beautiful nation enslaved to the United States. And when you leave El Condado and Isla Verde [01:13:00] in Puerto Rico, you find a nation being destroyed, being done away with. We have to liberate Puerto Rico, because if we do not, Puerto Ricans will be a footnote in history. “There was a people called Puerto Rican,” it’ll be no more. The governor of Puerto Rico pushing to make Puerto Rico the 51st state, talking about a plebiscite, and they got people scared to death, that Puerto Rico was starved to death if the United States is not feeding us. It’s not feeding us; it’s ripping us apart. But the myth, the belief, this country right now is being decimated, is being dismantled, [01:14:00] and being given to the corporations. The people in this country right now, you have a crime epidemic in Puerto Rico unlike anything I’ve ever seen here before. You have a drug and alcohol epidemic. It’s the only nation in the Caribbean where the main form of drug use is not smoking a little marijuana, but it’s intravenous heroin addiction in Puerto Rico, in the year 2002. This is the great result of the experiment with the United States. This is what we have left. 35 �JJ: Since you’ve been living here for a year and a half, what is the perspective that you see here? (inaudible) in terms of being colonized. VA: I’ll give [01:15:00] you an example of how much work we need to do here. Right now, we are on the beach of Loiza Aldea. Loiza Aldea is a Black township, okay? [Una?] Aldea is ex (Spanish) [01:15:21], a village of ex-slaves that were not allowed to live in San Juan, so they created this village. It’s one of the strong points of support for Luis Fortuño and the pro-statehood party. This is the same Luis Fortuño that leaves Puerto Rico, goes to the United States to give speeches at the John Birch Society. Now, how crazy could it possibly be? [01:16:00] A Black township supporting a guy who goes speak -- is a guest speaker at a white supremacist organization, my God. That’s how disconnected, okay, the politics are here. They just brought the third police commissioner under Fortuño’s term, okay, and the guy is a retired head of the FBI in Miami, Florida, with strong ties to the right-wing Cuban movement in Miami, Florida, who has been involved in assassinations in Latin America. That’s who they brought to run the police department in Puerto Rico. Has to tell us something. [01:17:00] You have a country where the marketing has made it where people look forward to eating Burger King and McDonald’s, food that kills people, when you have the quenepas falling off the trees and rotting, and the mangoes and the pineapples falling off the trees and rotting, because they destroyed the agriculture and we no longer have the know-how, how to raise our own food. This is to do away with the people and a nation in the year 2012. It is, I think, very important to understand that Puerto Rico has undergone [01:18:00] the most sophisticated 36 �form of colonialism in the history of humanity. And what do I mean by that? Very simply, that they have refined the ability of colonial control. And be real clear, they will kill anybody. Be real clear, they will kill. They assassinated Filiberto Ojeda Ríos, on Grito de Lares, 2005. But they have developed the ability to control -JJ: Who is (inaudible)? VA: Let me finish saying this first. They have developed the [01:19:00] science of controlling a people. If they lose the control, they will assassinate them. Filiberto Ojeda Ríos was el comandante of Los Macheteros. He was assassinated by the FBI on September 23, 2005, on the day where the Puerto Rican people celebrate their cry for independence, on Grito de Lares. The FBI surrounded his home, shot him, and then left him for over 24 hours bleeding to death, refusing to give him medical, okay? Um, it was a cowardly -- one of many cowardly acts of by the FBI in this country. JJ: And this was a team that came from Atlanta? VA: They came from the United States, like over 100 FBI agents came for that [01:20:00] operation. What they don’t understand is (Spanish) [01:20:07]. That’s what they don’t understand, because you can’t kill Filiberto Ojeda Ríos. You cannot kill Don Pedro (inaudible). Like they couldn’t kill (inaudible). Any other questions? (laughs) END OF VIDEO FILE 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d33fadd6d99e3d3133650b4849f616b.mp4 50b81a8a4ebf20e006053e9df53087e8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Vicente “Panama” Alba vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry Vicente “Panamá” Alba es un Young Lord quien nació en Panamá, migro a la ciudad de Nueva York en 1961 y ahora vive en Puerto Rico. El a trabajado por muchos años con la organización Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) de AFL/CIO, quien defiende los trabajadores inmigrantes y los indocumentaditos en los industriosas de recicla y las eliminación de los desechos. Durante la rebelión de Attica, (Septiembre 9, 1971) Señor Alba soportó reclusos en sus negaciones. Señor Alaba ha sido parte de dos tomadas de la Estatua de Libertad, la primera es plantando la bandera de Puerto Rico en la Estatua en parte de una campaña para libertar los Nacionalistas Puertorriqueños que fueron encarcelados y el segundo fue en soportar la lucha de la gente de Vieques. Un ferviente admirador de Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Señor Alba continua abogar por autodeterminación por Puerto Rico y a sido parte de los Nacionalistas y otros grupos, incluyendo unas organizaciones en la comunidad que hacen campañas para libertar los prisioneros de política, uno siendo Oscar López. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Panamañians--Relatos personales Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Alba_Vicente_1 Title A name given to the resource Vicente “Panama” Alba video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alba, Vicente Description An account of the resource Vicente “Panama” Alba is a Young Lord who was born in Panama, immigrated to New York City in 1961, and now lives in Puerto Rico. He worked many years as an organizer with Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) of the AFL/CIO, advocating for immigrant and undocumented workers in the solid waste and recycling industry. During the Attica Rebellion, September 9, 1971, he supported the inmates in their negotiations. Mr. Alba has been involved in two takeovers of the Statue of Liberty, first supporting the occupation and the planting of the Puerto Rican flag on the Statue as part of a campaign to free the Puerto Rican Nationalist prisoners and the second in support of the struggle of the people of Vieques. A fervent admirer of Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Mr. Alba continues to advocate for self- determination for Puerto Rico and has been involved with the Nationalists and other parties, including several community organizing campaigns to free political prisoners, including Oscar López. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Panamanians--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/621d6f0738d7f8ead3df51abfbe8ada1.pdf 3bc9b0b01c0be93c6ea337f66c2c64da PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Vicente “Panama” Alba Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/18/2012 Biography and Description English Vicente “Panama” Alba is a Young Lord who was born in Panama, immigrated to New York City in 1961, and now lives in Puerto Rico. He worked many years as an organizer with Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) of the AFL/CIO, advocating for immigrant and undocumented workers in the solid waste and recycling industry. During the Attica Rebellion, September 9, 1971, he supported the inmates in their negotiations. Mr. Alba has been involved in two takeovers of the Statue of Liberty, first supporting the occupation and the planting of the Puerto Rican flag on the Statue as part of a campaign to free the Puerto Rican Nationalist prisoners and the second in support of the struggle of the people of Vieques. A fervent admirer of Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Mr. Alba continues to advocate for self- determination for Puerto Rico and has been involved with the Nationalists and other parties, including several community organizing campaigns to free political prisoners, including Oscar López. Spanish Vicente “Panamá” Alba es un Young Lord quien nació en Panamá, migro a la ciudad de Nueva York en 1961 y ahora vive en Puerto Rico. El a trabajado por muchos años con la organización Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) de AFL/CIO, quien defiende los trabajadores inmigrantes y los indocumentaditos en los �industriosas de recicla y las eliminación de los desechos. Durante la rebelión de Attica, (Septiembre 9, 1971) Señor Alba soportó reclusos en sus negaciones. Señor Alaba ha sido parte de dos tomadas de la Estatua de Libertad, la primera es plantando la bandera de Puerto Rico en la Estatua en parte de una campaña para libertar los Nacionalistas Puertorriqueños que fueron encarcelados y el segundo fue en soportar la lucha de la gente de Vieques. Un ferviente admirador de Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Señor Alba continua abogar por autodeterminación por Puerto Rico y a sido parte de los Nacionalistas y otros grupos, incluyendo unas organizaciones en la comunidad que hacen campañas para libertar los prisioneros de política, uno siendo Oscar López. �Transcript JJ: Okay, so Panama, if you can tell me when you arrived here, what was that like? VA: Okay, I didn’t arrive here. I arrived in New York, and in New York I arrived at the age of 10, with my sister and my mother. My father was already in New York. But I came -- I went to the United States with a lot of dreams about what I thought the United States was. You know, the dream that they’re selling you when you’re in Latin America, that the United States is the land of equality and democracy, the home of the free, and all of those myths. And I came as a little kid. And reality set in very rapidly. I was not wanted in my neighborhood. The neighborhood was overwhelmingly Irish [00:01:00] Italian. We were not wanted there. I didn’t speak English. And I was not welcomed. The color of my skin wasn’t welcomed. My features weren’t welcomed. The fact that I spoke Spanish wasn’t welcomed. I mean, even though there were a lot of Irish and Italian immigrants, but I was a different type of immigrant. I was an immigrant of color. When I went to public school, I was sent back. I was sent back to start the fifth grade over again. And while education in Panama was not as supposedly advanced as the United States, I knew the subject matter, I just did not know the language. And because of it, I was put in a class for the mentally challenged, [00:02:00] like I was emotionally disturbed, or, you know, which -- there may be a lot of problems, that was not one of them, you know? They had it set up in the school system where people that were challenged and needed help, not help with the language, but help like psychological help. And most of the class was 1 �like that, but I was not that. My reason for being in that class was that I didn’t speak English. Um, racism became, you know, a very new and ugly experience [00:03:00] in New York. My neighborhood was a neighborhood in transition. I was the second, third, Latino family in the whole block. There was a Spanish grocery store across the street, but one Black family at the end. And then there was the public housing projects, you know? The neighborhood, as such, was in transition, and I guess that was part of the resentment that white folks had in seeing us come into the neighborhood. I had a couple very ugly experiences. My first girlfriend, because one of the things that I did was very soon after I got there, you know, the whole [00:04:00] (inaudible) invasion and everything, and I started letting my hair grow out, like it was something that I felt I had [ingo?] hair. And I didn’t like cutting it, you know, the way it was used to be worn the hair back there, very, you know, military looking like. And my first girlfriend was an Irish girl named [Susan Duffy?]. And because I started going out with her, one day, I went to see her, and there was a gang of white boys waiting for me, and they almost beat me to death, calling me and calling her all kinds of ugly names for being with me. But they didn’t touch her, but they -- I mean, I fought, fought, and I was saved. I mean, I’m alive because a Black bus driver saw what was happening. He drove his bus and opened the door, and I fell into the bus, and he took off, you know? Um, there were [00:05:00] -- the neighborhood was segregated. You know, just north of where I lived, it was an area where, you know, the St. Lawrence train station, it was an area where a white gang ran, the Young Crusaders. I’ll never forget that. There were Italians and, you know, like, elder 2 �people of color were not really allowed to walk out of the train station and walk a couple of blocks to the housing project, the Monroe houses and Bronx [rail?] houses. But I mean, young kids couldn’t walk the streets [during the day?], you know, in that neighborhood. You got caught there, you were done. Um, I dropped out of school when I went and tried to get a job in construction, and my next-door neighbor, [00:06:00] who was Sicilian, [Mr. Giambrone?] very nice family, you know, they didn’t have that prejudice that the American whites had, something that, you know, I guess the family inherited later on, but he offered to take me to his jobs, to get me a job. He knew they were looking for people. And, you know, construction was paying good. I walked into the construction site, and all these white guys surrounded me, it was like, “What the fuck are you doing here?” “Mr. Giambrone invited me to the job.” The guy told me, he says, “None of your kind work for me. Get the fuck out of here.” They were laughing, you know? And you gotta -- it was not even about if I was capable of working, could handle the jobs, none of that. It was I was a person of color. And they didn’t tolerate that at their job sites. You know, [00:07:00] down the road, that led to a whole industry in New York of coalitions that fought for jobs or Blacks and Latinos in construction. But life was segregated. I didn’t see that in my country. I didn’t know that, you know, that experience, and it was very traumatizing for me. So, by the age of 14, I had gotten into drugs, and I found haven in drugs. And I think that it was kind of eased getting into the drugs because of the youth culture. You know, it was the Beatles and smoking weed and dropping acid and so, you know, all of the myths that they talked about drugs, you know, it was like, 3 �it's all bullshit, you know? You don’t get hooked on marijuana. I didn’t know that you did get hooked on heroin. So, eventually, that happened very rapidly with me. But it was a very ugly scene, you know? And it was, I think, perhaps, an even bigger shock [00:08:00] coming from outside the United States and believing all the hype outside that they tell people that the United States is, you know. And in a lot of ways, my salvation, in a sense, was the Puerto Rican community. And we need to really understand what that was, because in New York, they might have been, I don’t know, 8,000 Panamanians, or less, maybe 10,000 Dominicans or 15,000 Cubans, and at that time, there were literally 1 million Puerto Ricans in the city of New York. So, Puerto Ricans defined what being Latino was. [00:09:00] It was a community that me and my friends, you know, the ones that spoke Spanish, but it for me was very confusing, because I got the nickname Panama right away, because, they asked me, you know, “Where you from?” “Panama.” And Panama stuck. But I will say that, you know, I’m very proud I’m Panamanian. And when I would ask my friends, (Spanish) [00:09:25], you know, what are you? They would say, “I’m Americano,” but they couldn’t convince me, they couldn’t convince themselves, because, you know, of the dilemma of -- and then I began to really understand that my peers, my contemporaries, were young Puerto Ricans, and mainly the sons and daughters of Puerto Ricans that had recently arrived in [00:10:00] the United States, that mass wave that I later on, learned was Operation Bootstrap. And as I began to learn about the history of Puerto Rico, you know, and I learned about the (Spanish) [00:10:15], and the Nationalist uprising of 1950, and the myth of the 4 �citizenship, it must have been even more confusing for young people coming from Puerto Rico or from Puerto Rican parents, because Puerto Rican parents had lived through the repression that the Puerto Rican people had faced on the island and been told that they were Americans, and brought to the United States with the promises of gold in the streets, and, you know, only to face that as Latinos, we weren’t wanted, you know? As mestizo people, we were not wanted here. You were a citizen, but you were a [00:11:00] citizen for the purposes of going to war, but not for the purposes of being treated and welcomed and treated equally, or anything like that. And it was a very interesting time, because very rapidly, you know, [every time?] you’re challenging orthodoxies, everything that was talked about was supposed to be, was questioned, and it was questioned by a large sector of my generation. And it was confusing, because on the one hand, we were beginning to develop a sense of absolute optimism about, yeah, we could change the world. You know, the antiwar movement, the war, you know, all the myths that were said about Vietnam, [00:12:00] you know, and exposing the lies about Vietnam. And it gave people a sense of, you know what, we could really change the world. At the same time that for me, personally, like for many young people in my generation, drugs had become a haven. An emotional haven. And, you know, it had, at least among ourselves, it had lost the stigma attached to it. You know, it wasn’t bad to get high. Everybody got high. So, much so that by 1970 in the Bronx, in the South Bronx, specifically, it was estimated that 15 percent of the overall population was addicted to drugs. Now think about 15 percent of the population [00:13:00] in terms of a population that 5 �includes the newborn baby all the way to the little old lady or the little old man that’s just about to pass on, 15 percent of the whole population, and it was concentrated in that pre-teen, teenage, young adult sector of that population where there was massive addiction, and the drug that was pouring into our community, the drug that we were consuming primarily, was heroin. We didn’t bring it in, but it was there for us to consume. And those are issues that later on, you know, I began to really look at, but at the time, it was just the way it was. Um -JJ: Wait a minute. VA: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so [00:14:00] how did you get from the heroin to the political? VA: Well, what happened was that -- I think it’s important to point that the political was something very tangible. You could feel it. You could breathe it. You could taste it. People talked about it. I mean, you know, and it wasn’t so much around Puerto Rico, but that would come soon. I was struggling because I was so impressed by the Black Panthers, you know, the daring to tell the truth and to stand up to that and fight for that to pay the consequences whatever they were. And that’s when I saw, in Christmas 1969, the Young Lords on TV. [00:15:00] The Young Lords had taken over a church in El Barrio, East Harlem. And I mean, I don’t even know how to say what the feeling was like. But it was -- to me, it was like we arrived. We are here now. Now we are a part of all of this is going on, worldwide, to change the way the world is. That was the feeling. But I was on drugs. I remember that. I remember watching the news and seeing this. 6 �And that created a conflict then, because it was for me the first real hope, you know? Now there’s a place for me, you know? I mean, I guess the primary racial aspect of me is Indigenous, it’s [00:16:00] not African. You know, you don’t see my Africanness. And so although there were other Puerto Ricans in the Black Panther Party, but you know what I’m saying, it was not ours. And actually, it was a young man, a Dominican young man who loaned me the biography of Pedro Albizu Campos, you know, and I was still in that stage and, you know, and trying to make sense. And I read where Don Pedro Albizu Campos traveled throughout Latin America, looking for volunteers, recruiting volunteers for the Puerto Rican revolution. And while [00:17:00] I didn’t quite understand yet why there were so many Puerto Ricans in New York, to me, it was a call to me. This guy’s looking for me, you know? And I began to learn about Puerto Rican colonialism. And it, to me, was a very logical link between colonialism and the way we were treated as people. And I had an experience that, you know, police were very abusive. And in New York, there was a unit of the police department called the TPF, Tactical Police Force. This was the riot squads. And they had been set up because of all the social upheaval in the communities. And they traveled, you know, to Harlem when there was a riot. I mean, they were sent around the city. But when there were no riots, what they used to do was basically invade a community. And one summer day, they came into my block, and they dropped all the kids on the block, took us kids from both sides of the rock, grabbed everybody. [00:18:00] We were hanging out. Too us into a backyard. And I never forget this big Irish guy, the guy was a yahoo. He 7 �was like a mountain man. He had me by the collar and he was whipping the crap out of me with a rubber hose. They used to carry two things very openly, which were rubber hoses and blackjacks, blackjack being a lead ball wrapped in leather. And rubber hose, and they used to use that, learned this later on, the rubber hose, because they could whip you, and because the hose is round, it doesn’t leave the welts, the marks. It’ll bust you up inside. But eventually the mark goes away, even though you’re busted up. And this guy was whipping the shit out of me and calling me a fucking dirty Puerto Rican. I’ll never forget this. And I’m new to this. I still don’t understand why this is happening. So, I say, “Officer, Officer, I’m not Puerto Rican, Panamanian.” [00:19:00] He says, “I don’t give a fuck what kind of Puerto Rican you are.” And kept hitting me, and I said to myself, “Well motherfucker, I am Puerto Rican now.” If that’s what it is, it was what it is. Because they couldn’t -- you know, in their ignorance, racist ignorance, they have no conception. Much later, to this day, they look at a Latino, all Latinos are Mexicans. They don’t understand what south of the border is, or the countries south, you know, Ecuador, or Bolivia, or Argentina, or Chile, or Honduras, Nicaragua, no, no. If you look like a spic, you’re Mexican. You know, they had to deport Puerto Ricans, you know, out of the United States, because they thought they were Mexicans, in this late age, you know? But going back to that, that was the experience. And it took me about eight months [00:20:00] to terms with making the decision that you could not be about what I wanted to be about and be a dope fiend. And by coincidence, my decision to stop using drugs coincided with the second takeover by the Young Lords of 8 �Lincoln Hospital. And that takeover was specifically to establish a drug abuse problem, program, in Lincoln Hospital, understanding that Lincoln Hospital was an institution that was built in the 1800s to receive slaves coming from the South, and this was the only hospital that served the people the South Bronx. It was a disaster. And people referred to it as the butcher shop. So, I started kicking dope, [00:21:00] withdrawing from heroin the day of that takeover, and I joined that effort through a sister friend of mine, Cleo Silvers, who was a Panther and was transitioning to work with the Lords. JJ: So, how did you handle the detox? VA: I quit cold turkey. JJ: Okay, where? In the hospital? VA: Yo, working. Working in the Lincoln Hospital during the day and the night going to a -- we had a mess hall. The Puerto Rican Student Union had a mess hall on Brown Bridge, and I slept there. And then I moved from there, you know. But those first four or five days were hell. And I dealt with them by being totally involved in the detox, working and building that while -- and going through the doubts of, you know, I don’t think I could last the day. I think I want to walk out of here and just go get high one more time. You know? It was the constant, one more time. [00:22:00] You know, it was a challenge that I had placed upon myself, to see how -- whether the revolution meant something to me or not. And I wanted to be a part of changing the world and so ultimately, that won out. You know, I never shot dope up after that day, and never. In fact, let me just say this, that summer, I went to Orchard Beach and ran into some of the fellas, and the 9 �first guy that I ran into told me, “Panama, come on, man, let’s go get high. I got some dope. Let’s go get high.” And my -- and I think about this in retrospect, because my reaction was, I punched him in the mouth, you know? And it was like a safety valve, you know what I’m saying? Nobody else is gonna tell Panama let’s go get high, because he’s capable of punching somebody in the fucking face, you know? [00:23:00] And it was a way of me defending myself from the doubt that I had that maybe I would, I think. I never did, though. JJ: So, what you’re saying is that now you’re changing your belief system, or the way you’re looking at the world, and that contributed to your detox. VA: I mean, I think that the thing that was easier then than now is that a movement and social change was tangible. You could feel it. It was happening. Look, the people of Vietnam took on the mightiest empire in the world, and they were kicking their ass. No matter what the newspaper said, you knew that they were kicking their ass because, you know, the United States could not win. A people without the weaponry and the might [00:24:00] and the planes and the, you know. I mean, they were fighting M-16s with bamboo sticks at one point, you know? And eventually they persevered. And that is very inspirational. To say, you know, if you really determined to do something, you can, you will. And then when I joined -- there was one other thing that helped me tremendously was that before I got, or just about the time that I was getting into drugs, for a brief period of time, I also joined martial arts. I used to go on Saturdays to a dojo and take up jiujitsu. And I had a sensei, Mr. V, he was a Filipino. The guy was like 90 pounds wet, you know, [00:25:00] but he went away to Thailand, if I remember 10 �correctly, and came back with a series of pictures, you know, of a sequence of him breaking a block of ice. And I was the wisest little ass, you know, I’m 13 years old, 14 years old, whatever. And I saw the pictures, and I told him, I said, “That’s what I want to learn how to do.” Not this bullshit, this [cop outs?], fighting the air and all this is like you’re saying to me, course it didn’t make sense, then. He asked me, he said, “So, you want to break a block of ice. What do you aim for?” And you know, in my infinite wisdom, I told him, “That’s a dumb question. I aim for the block of ice.” And he said, “Well, that’s why you will never break one.” I said, “What? What were you aiming for?” He said, “For the other side.” [00:26:00] And you know, I was too wise for that to make any kind of sense to me. But when I was kicking that dope habit, I started thinking about that. He had said to me that the ice was an obstacle to get to where he wanted to put his fist. And that was an attitude. That’s a state of mind that you have to get into and it’s about -- it’s not about jiujitsu. So, it’s about living. It’s about life. It’s about the challenges of life and your goals for life. And going back to it, thinking about it, I don’t know why that came to mind. I remember when I was kicking a dope habit, I said, “This is just that. The block of ice is in the way of my fist here, you know what I’m saying? This addiction, this pain, it’s in the way, and I got to get through it to the other side. The other side is being free of drugs.” You know, you can’t [00:27:00] talk about freedom and be a slave to a substance. And so at the age of 19, I leave drugs and joined the movement. I was very rapidly recruited to the Young Lords. The Young Lords, I think -- and I’m talking to the founder of the Young Lords, okay, but I think that you need to understand what he meant to us 11 �and why I think it was so successful when it was successful. You know, it was a response from our community to the reality we were living. And it was not a pretty reality. It was not nice. And see, the class of people, it’s not enough to say Puerto Ricans. Yes, Puerto Ricans, but Puerto Ricans were [00:28:00] poor Puerto Ricans, it was working Puerto Ricans, people that were not the owners or in power. And that’s a certain class of people. And these are people that were in the United States because they came from that same class of people. You know, there are Puerto Ricans that are three, four generations on the island, but they were more privileged. They did not get affected in the same way by, you know, the hurricanes and the Depression, the way the Depression impacted Puerto Rico, and the machinations that were made in Puerto Rico to steal people’s, you know, land and uproot them and change the economy and leave them outside [00:29:00] impoverished and homeless and hungry, you know, and then provide them with a promised land, you know, a ticket to the United States and a job in a factory making shit money, you know? But that was better than what was here. But what was here was created in order to uproot Puerto Ricans and take what belonged to Puerto Ricans. And so the movement that the Young Lords initiates in the United States, a movement that arises not out of intellectuals, it arises out of desire to fight for something better. And we were heavily influenced by what was happening in the United States. We were influenced, you know, a lot -- at the beginning, it was not so much about [00:30:00] (Spanish) Puerto Rico. It was what was happening around us in the United States. It was the Black Panther Party, the Civil Rights movement, the 12 �Black Power movement, you know, and then begin to realize in other parts of the United States, it’s the Chicanos, Mexicanos, the Brown Berets, and the American Indian Movement, and in the Asian communities, you got the Red Guard, and you got [Awakun?], and the people are on the move, you know, and doing the best that they can to obl-- and we’re not coming from pretty places. We’re coming from gangs, coming from drugs, coming from poor working families, you know, and I don’t think we need to make any apologies for that. You know, the young people that made up the Young Lords in New York, [00:31:00] the leadership was primarily first-generation college students. Nobody else in their family had been to college. Many had -- their parents had not graduated from high school. But you know, I mean, I’ll give you an example. In the City of New York, there was a free university system. CUNY was free. But it kept us out, because we were not educated to go to college. And when the movement for social justice begins to take hold, young people start fighting for the right to have access to higher education. So, now it’s time to implement tuition. So, [00:32:00] you can’t -- you know, you open admissions and, you know, we want to maintain free tuition -- and the tuition now is keeping our kids out of school. You know, now there’s a privilege once again. There’s not so much Black and white or Brown and white or yellow and white or red and white, it’s now rich or not rich, you know? But I mean, those are the processes. And I mean, like in some instances, you also have to recognize some of the doors that we opened, like for education. It got people into positions where now they don’t want to struggle, they’re too comfortable. There’s a group of our community who has 13 �made it, or they think they have made it, and so they are privileged within our community. [00:33:00] That wasn’t so much a reality back then. You know, it was an overwhelmingly very poor community and a very devastated community. And, you know, people talk about the drug epidemic that hit our community. They don’t talk about the alcohol epidemic that was very acceptable. You know, the alcoholism that was just rampant, not just in the Puerto Rican or Black community, but in the white community. And the drug epidemic was not acknowledged until it hit the white community. while it was ravaging our communities, it was something that, you know, let them die, and you know, the ones that go to jail, go to jail, and the ones that kill each other, kill each other, and let’s just pretend it’s not happening. And you know it was -- I don’t think -- I think it makes a lot of sense that my political work started out fighting against the [00:34:00] drug epidemic, you know, with this program we established at Lincoln Hospital. The program itself was recognized by the United Nations for its success. However, the City of New York still shut us down. The contradiction, right? We were the most successful drug program in New York, but they shut us out because they don’t have control of it. JJ: And the way they used acupuncture, also, is that -- VA: Yeah, we read in a journal that an acupuncturist in Thailand was treating a person for respiratory problems, and in stimulating the lung point of the ear, he had accidentally discovered [00:35:00] that this person was also an opium addict, and that he relieved the withdrawal symptoms from some opium. And we went down to Chinatown, we bought some [yin charts?], and we bought needles, and 14 �we started practicing with each other, trying to figure out, where’s the lung point? That’s how the acupuncture started. You know, it was the time when Richard Nixon was opening up the issues with China, because, you know, capitalism, buying new markets and resources are real product and all that. So, um, yeah. So, another part of the world was becoming exposed. It was being exposed to us. And so, yeah, we’re the first to utilize acupuncture to treat people with HIV/AIDS. It was a [00:36:00] very innovative program. Very innovative program because we also used our social politics, our insights, into the impact of racism, sexism, classism, to address the plight of geographics, use it as part of the therapy. And I think that, in retrospect, looking back to the question of the Young Lords, it was one of the most successful moments, okay, for the Young Lords in New York. I think that another -- and I think this has to do with the transition the Young Lords took later on, but it was another, I think, very impactful moment that I was a part of the Young Lords was the Attica [00:37:00] uprising. When Young Lords established themselves in New York, at first, there was a lot of abuse taking place against inmates in the county jails. And out of that, there was some riots that occurred in the county jails, in the Tombs, and Brooklyn House of Detention, and Rikers Island and like that. And inmates coming out of jail that joined the Young Lords formed the Inmates Liberation Front. Um, some of the people that were engaged in that, the people in the leadership of that turned out to be very opportunist and started using that as a front for hustle. So, the Young Lords shut it [00:38:00] down. But then, in 1971, in August of 1971, a young man named Jose Paris, who was a Young Lord, knocked on the door the Young 15 �Lord’s office says, “Jose Paris, GI, reporting for to The Young Lords branch of Attica.” We didn’t even know that there were Young Lords in Attica. And he came down to tell us that Attica was about to blow. And in September, it blew. And we did a lot, a lot of work around Attica. But understand that work around prisoners’ rights, work around drug addicts was not the work that some intellectuals considered honorable, um, [00:39:00] you know, dealing with a certain class of people. And I think some intellectualizing tendencies among some of the people, and the influence, the bad influence of some of the leftists got the leadership of the organization, or some people, and I contend, me, this is my opinion, that the police infiltration all worked together to move the Young Lords away from what had made the Young Lords successful. JJ: What do you mean? VA: For example, [00:40:00] putting an end to the prisoner support work. For example, disconnecting itself from the Lincoln detox program that we helped founded. It would eventually became a political program of the Young Lords to disengage from all community work, meaning not just in those areas, but meaning in housing, in the community offices that we had. I was running the last office that we had, which is in the Bronx, Cypress Avenue on 141st. Eventually, the Lower East Side El Barrio offices were shut down, as were other community offices [00:41:00] around the country. And there was a planned agenda to “transform,” quote-unquote, the Young Lords into the P-R-R-W-O, the Puerto Rican Revolutionary Workers Organization. And that meant that they had to cut ties with all the other work, according to them. What, in fact, it did was put an 16 �end to the Young Lords in New York. You know, there was an assembly held, I think I mentioned this before, but there was an assembly held in Hunts Point Palace, I believe it was 1973, early 1973, and I never forget that one brother got up and said, “I have no problem with the posters hanging,” they had Marx, [00:42:00] Lenin, Engels, Mao, he says, “What problem I have is with the ones that are not hanging. Where is Don Pedro? Where’s Lolita? Where’s Blanca Canales? Where are the Nationalists?” You know, Letansas, Hostos, none of those people. You know? And it was an effort to steer the organization away from its Revolutionary Nationalist roots into being a part of this Marxist-Leninist Communist rebuilding process in the United States. JJ: (inaudible) just to the workers, instead of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: Yeah, I think that there was -- first of all, my opinion, there was a misconception about Lumpen. Okay, the misconception had to do with -- Lumpen is a parasite, okay? The mafia is a Lumpen. We weren’t Lumpens. We were the unemployed sector of the working class [00:43:00] -- JJ: (inaudible) VA: -- which the Black Panther Party called the lumpenproletariat, okay? But there was a move to ignore that part of society and to focus on the workers of the means of production, theoretically, because what in reality was intellectuals locking themselves up in rooms, holding meeting after meeting, debating each other, cutting each other down, about who supported the Molsheviks -- the Bolsheviks, the Mensheviks, this, you know, the Albanian line, the China line, the Russia line. I mean, it was, you know, all stuff which I consider important, but it 17 �was totally irrelevant to the people in our community, [00:44:00] since we are not -- in our community either through words or deeds the way we did before. And I think the ultimate act of that was, I believe, that the police led us into a confrontation with the police in 1971 at the Puerto Rican Day Parade, and that that confrontation changed the relationship that we had with our community. I remember being that person running the Bronx office in June of 1971. I remember the day before people coming to bring us food, make sure that we ate. And I remember going back to open that office after the Puerto Rican Day, and people walking across the street. JJ: So, you said the programs were sacrificed. (inaudible) VA: Everything was sacrificed. Everything was sacrificed, even the cadres that were assigned to details were pulled out. Like I said, I was the last [00:45:00] -- I ran the last office in the Bronx, and, you know, I went to that assembly, and I thought about it, and, you know, part of growing up politically was coming to terms with understanding that the commitment was to a cause, not an organization, and that the Young Lords that were becoming PRRWO was not something that I wanted to be a part of anymore, but that the commitment had to continue to the cause. It’s another way of saying, you know, if you’re going someplace in a car, and the car breaks down, then you get on roller skates, you get on whatever it is that takes you where you want to go. One of the things that, [00:46:00] to me, was very disturbing was I felt that PRRWO just wanted to turn the page on people who were our heroes, who had sacrificed themselves for the cause, you know, and it’s not about whether you agree that their actions were the most correct. 18 �They did the best they could. And one of the cases -- the case that when I walked away from the Young Lords, the first thing I did was work on the campaign to free the New York Five. The New York Five were two Boricuas and three Black brothers of African-American ancestry. All three. All five were Black, two Boricuas, two brothers, one who had been a member of the Young Lords, Gabriel Torres, [00:47:00] and who had been gone underground with the Black Liberation Army, had gotten caught, and his brother Francisco, which years later, Francisco “Cisco” Torres would once again become the target of the government recently, about a year ago, the State of California dropped the charges against the former members of the Black Panther Party known as the San Francisco Eight. Cisco Torres was the last defendant that they dropped the charges on. So, we go back to 1970, you know? But those people, when they were arrested, this Marxist-Leninist movement completely ignored them, like they told them, “We’re going to build a party,” [00:48:00] you know. And I felt that if we can’t stand up for our own, we can’t stand up for anybody. And so, you know, we built a committee. I, along with other former members of the Black Panther Party, which was also in turmoil at the time, there had been a split between the Huey faction and Cleaver faction, so called. And, you know, Safiya Bukhari and myself, and [Zeit?] and some other folks created a committee to free the New York Five. Mickey Melendez -- I think it’s also important to mention that, when that assembly took place at the Hunts Point Palace, the one that I referred to, there had been an operation in place within the Young Lords, [00:49:00] also to build a clandestine military movement operation that was predicated upon having 19 �a political above-ground organization that really responded to. It was not to be a fly by night military adventure. It was something that was to be guided by a political above ground organization. The same time that the assembly was taking place at the Hunts Point Palace, folks that were involved in the military were meeting, and they decided, based on this change that occurred in the Young Lords, the so-called change to the PRRWO, that they closed up shop because the organization that they were committed to didn’t exist anymore. So, we all walked away from that process. [00:50:00] But we continued. One person that I can say that was part of that, because he’s written it in his book, is Mickey Melendez. If you read Mickey Melendez’s book -JJ: He wrote that in there. VA: Yeah. You know, he was a person that had, first of all, founded the Young Lords in New York, and secondly, was assigned to build that military operation. JJ: That’s the only one we’re going to talk about, because he wrote that in the book. VA: That’s the only reason I’m mentioning it now, you know. He had moved on, and had been working with -- and I had been working with, you know, before I left the Lords -- JJ: And it no longer exists. VA: No, no, no. It was shut down that day. We had [00:51:00] been working politically with the case of Carlos Feliciano. And through the case of Carlos Feliciano, Carlos’s case was a very interesting case in that -- and the attorney that worked with us was very much in solidarity with our movement, William Kunstler. Bill was defending Carlos Feliciano, and he made an incredible 20 �maneuver in the court. Basically, Carlos Feliciano had spent about, I think, almost two years in jail before going to trial and being found guilty of placing some artifacts on, you know, some stores in New York. He was sentenced. Now under New York State law, you have to serve at least one year in the state penitentiary before you are considered for parole. But because he had served almost two years in county jail, they [00:52:00] didn’t count that. You have to go and begin -- now if you’re a rich man, okay, you get arrested today, you get bailed out tomorrow, you get convicted, and then you serve the year, you have the possibility of parole. But poor person that can’t afford the bail has to sit in county jail, and that time doesn’t count. And so Bill Kunstler appealed that in the state court, and the Court of Appeals opted for resentencing Carlos Feliciano to a time served to get him out of jail, because they didn’t want to deal with that issue. So, Carlos gets out, the committee gets transformed into the committee to free the Nationalists. So, I began working with Mickey, [00:53:00] the committee to free the Nationalists, and at the same time, the case of the New York Five. The organization that grew out of the Young Lords, PRRWO, continued in its process of degeneration. And by, I believe it’s late 1975, the beginning of 1976, it had become almost like a cult. And in the same tradition that had destroyed the Black Panther Party, COINTELPRO operations, it [00:54:00] began engaging in kidnappings and tortures and all of that, of people inside the movement, in the name of purifying the politics. And they kidnapped and tortured Richie Pérez -- I need to speak about Richie Pérez. Richie Pérez, I met in my neighborhood. Richie Pérez is one of the fellas who lived in my hood, okay? A brilliant, brilliant 21 �man. He was the youngest teacher in Monroe High School where I went, where I went very briefly, since I was -- they didn’t even allow me to drop out of high school. They kicked me out of high school. I was banned from the public school system. I was, like, totally rebellious, self-destructive, you know? Um, and [00:55:00] I ran into Richie. Richie was a good friend, you know, in the neighborhood. Then I stopped seeing Richie around the neighborhood, and I ran into Richie in the middle of a police riot -- I mean, in the middle of a massive arrival that occurred in Orchard Beach in the Bronx on July the Fourth, 1970. He had already joined the Young Lords. And I was still trying to struggle with my demons, and I go to Orchard Beach, a fight breaks out when a cop hits one of the fellas with a night stick who was sitting on the handrail, and my boy kicked him in the face. That was the end to that. I mean, all hell broke loose. The beach was packed. And we went to war, (Spanish) [00:55:55] you know? And in the middle [00:56:00] of this madness, I see Richie Pérez, who was heading a team of Young Lords who are in the beach, selling Palante, Palante being the Young Lords newspaper. And I said, “My God, look at my teacher. Oh, you’re Richie,” you know, like, I viewed him in a very special place. He was a very special person. And he’s throwing down, you know? He’s throwing down against the police. That was very inspiring, too. I think that he had a lot to do to help me ultimately make the decision that I made, people that I respected being in the Young Lords, and now I knew people personally. Anyway, Richie, sadly, went on with PRRWO for a period, until they kidnapped and tortured him. And we heard about it, Mickey and myself and [00:57:00] [Nathan Rodriguez?], who 22 �was also a former Young Lord working with us on the case of Carlos Feliciano and all that, campaigning for the Nationalists. Heard about it, we denounced it, and then we got close to -- because the only role models that we had in our community about the politics that we were espousing were old Nationalists. And Carlos Feliciano was an old Nationalist. He invited us to come to Puerto Rico and to join the Nationalist Party. He professed to be committed to reactivating the Nationalist Party. So, in that spirit, we came to Puerto Rico, I believe it was ’76, come to Puerto Rico to a Nationalist Party assembly, and the day that we are leaving back to New York, we stopped at a bar in El Condado [00:58:00] for a couple of drinks, we have hours to kill before heading to the airport. And we walked into this bar, and in the dark bar in the back was Richie and Diana Pérez, his compañera, both of them had been kidnapped and tortured together. And Richie had disappeared after that happened. Nobody had contact with him. And so we meet accidentally, you know. And I know that Richie was leery, you know, but because I was the closest to him between and Mickey, I, you know, I knew him since I was a kid, we knew each other. I went up to Richie and I gave him my telephone number, I said, “Listen, if you feel like it when you get back to New York, give me a call. Know that we’re not here to hurt you,” [00:59:00] you know. He took the number. They walked out of the bar, and we let them walk. And he called me a couple of weeks later back in New York. That’s how Richie really integrated himself into the Puerto Rican movement. And Richie was a very, very special person, a very special Young Lord, because he carried out that commitment throughout his life, all the way until his death. He passed away from 23 �cancer. Richie and I, after that, we moved in together for a time, and you know, when he broke up with his compañera, we were part of the campaign that were about the release of the Nationalists. We helped found the National Congress of Puerto Rican [01:00:00] Rights. We engaged in the campaign against that racist movie called Four Apache in the Bronx, which was a tremendous campaign. We initiated in New York under the National Congress, the whole campaign against police brutality. And we continued to work together until his death. But a very, very special person in my life and in our lives, politically, and in New York Young Lords. JJ: He continued, also, some other projects after that on his own? VA: Well, no, he worked. He worked as a job for the Community Service Society and helped open up that space for us to use as a base of operation, you know, to carry on the work around police brutality and all that. [01:01:00] So, I think those are the important points that I wanted to add to the interview that I didn’t touch on before JJ: Anything else? VA: Well, I mean, yeah. I mean the other things in, you know, the work in 1975, when I came back from Puerto Rico, a struggle began to develop in New York, which is very important. New York went into a financial crisis, and the first thing that they opted for attacking was institutions that service Black and Puerto Rican communities. So, for example, they decided to close down Sydenham Hospital, served the Harlem community. They decided to close two community colleges, [01:02:00] one of them Hostos Community College had only opened up in 1971, 24 �now in 1975 they wanted to shut it down. It was a community college was based in an abandoned tire factory, a warehouse in the South Bronx. I got a call from one of the brothers that was in a prison release program, a prison study release program that was at the tail end of his sentence, and he was serving time for drug-related offenses, not for violent offenses. And they had this program where they would release inmates from Sing Sing early in the morning, put them in the train to New York City, they will go to school and then go back to Sing Sing at night. And it was a program called [01:03:00] (Spanish). And one of the participants in that program was a friend of mine who I met through his brother, who was a supporter of the Young Lords, Rookie Alanis. I forgot what his name is, we called him Rookie all the time. And he called me, says, “Oh, man, they gonna shut down out our school. And, you know, like, I’m down with this, except that I’m already in jail and if I get busted now, I’m in a release program, I’m never coming home, you know?” So, through Rookie’s call, I got involved in the campaign to save Hostos Community College. That campaign led to the longest takeover of any college in the City of New York. I think we spent, if I remember correct, 29 days, [01:04:00] until they couldn’t take it no more and they busted all of us, sent us to jail. But it was a very successful campaign. It was a campaign that brought -- at that time, I was a member of the Nationalist Party, former Young Lord, and we worked in a coalition with the Puerto Rican Socialist Party. It was one of their cadres who, in fact, led that campaign successfully, Ramon Jimenez, um, who eventually got purged from the Puerto Rican Socialist Party because they thought that he was not following their lead. One of the things that 25 �I think is important to recognize is that the vacuum that existed in New York in the progressive politics of the Puerto Rican community, [01:05:00] existed because the movement, those people that had come from Puerto Rico to New York, had come with an agenda that was different. Their agenda was basically to use New York as a resource for their organizations in Puerto Rico, but nowhere in their agenda did they have the Puerto Ricans that were in New York and their issues. JJ: So, they were not connected at all to the community. VA: Exactly. And that was one of the problems that we had with the Puerto Rican Socialist Party group that was part of the Hostos takeover, were about the issues there. JJ: Which is vice versa which was accused of the Young Lords when they went to Puerto Rico. They were not connected. VA: Exactly. Well, the thing with the Young [01:06:00] Lords of Puerto Rico, is a whole other matter. I mean, I think that, you know, we -- see, the Puerto Rican Socialist Party members that were part of the Hostos takeover, people like Ramon Jimenez, people like [Victor Bacques?], people like Liz -- my God, I’ve forgotten her name right now, she’s a judge now. A number of them, they were, you know, people, many of them were rooted in the Puerto Rican community in New York. They knew what was going on, they had a sense for that. One of the efforts of the Young Lords from New York made, Young Lords party in New York was an effort to open up fronts of struggle here in Puerto Rico. And that failed. [01:07:00] It failed miserably, because the people that came here were Puerto 26 �Rican, were the children of Puerto Rican parents, but did not have a connection to the Puerto Rican reality. JJ: Right, over here, in Puerto Rico. VA: Exactly. JJ: Which [goes back?] we’re a divided nation. VA: See I don’t agree with that. We’re not divided nation, okay? This is a very important point. Listen, the nation of Puerto Rico, it’s intact. We are a divided people, okay, but no, because see that -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: -- that issue has come up repeatedly and is a misrepresentation of a reality that continues to get us into political jam. The nation isn’t Puerto Rico. It’s a colony. JJ: I get that from (inaudible). VA: But that also came from the [01:08:00] Puerto Rico Socialist Party, and the MPI, that’s in the same position, and there are people even today that say that. And I think -- JJ: So, you’re saying we’re a divided people. VA: We’re a divided people by forced migration, living, you know -- being Puerto Ricans, part lives on the island of Puerto Rico, and the other part lives a different reality in the United States. It’s a different reality. We’re not living the Puerto Rican reality in the United States. If you’re in Chicago, you’re not living Luis Fortuño’s government. You’re living [lady?] government. You know? You’re living that. You’re living in a different environment with a multiplicity of people from other nationalities of the whole racial culture of the United States. It’s all 27 �very different from -- you know? In fact, I’ll tell you a very quick story. I have a very dear friend, a young lady who came from Puerto Rico to New York, and who I met when we took over the Statue of Liberty [01:09:00] the second time. I was arrested with Tito Kayak; we took over the Statue of Liberty during the campaign to get the Navy out of Vieques. JJ: But the first one, you put the flag up. VA: Yeah, the first one, it’s this one here. Okay? That was the first takeover. Then Tito Kayak came to New York, we hooked up in New York, and he got on top of the Statue of Liberty, on the crown here. Um, and she got arrested the same day with me. That’s how I met her. But the point of the story is that [Camila?], one day asked me, “Why is it so important for people here,” in New York,” being Puerto Rican?” And see, and I thought about that for a while. [01:10:00] It was really quite simple. You know, in Puerto Rico, everybody assumes everybody else is Puerto Rican. In the United States, being Puerto Rican is something that they never let you forget. When you go to school, they never let you forget. When you go and rent an apartment, they never let you -- you go to buy a house, they don’t let you forget. You go to apply for a job, they never let you forget. The discrimination, the attitude, you know, the apartheid culture of the United States makes it so that Puerto Rican is something that you live every day. Even though you’re not living the Puerto Rican reality of the colony, you are discriminated -- I know a case, for example, Professor Rivera Garcia, who was a muralist, [01:11:00] renowned the worldwide muralist of Puerto Rico, brought in an exchange from the University of Puerto Rico to the university system in New 28 �York, and they sent an American professor from New York to Puerto Rico. Except that CUNY and the university system forgot to make arrangements for his living situation here and his family for the year they was going to spend in New York. And this guy was a pro statehooder who was put in the National Commission of the Arts by Bush, father, I think was, and he gets in New York, very white-skinned, blue-eyed Puerto Rican, has a son with blue eyes and blonde hair, wife is blonde, they get to New York, they rent an apartment in the [flock neck?] section of the Bronx, an Italian section. No problem. [01:12:00] Until one day, this widower, Italian widower in the building kept seeing him come up and down, and one day they said, “Excuse me, where you from?” He said, “From Puerto Rico.” Says, “I thought you were Greek. We don’t like Puerto Ricans. You gotta get the fuck out of my building.” This guy started a campaign of terror against that family, cutting their lights, their water, confront him, threatening him, his kid, his wife, destroying his car, his motor-- I think it was a motorcycle. I’m sorry. And until one day, defending himself, he shot this guy. And it became a big case in New York. This guy thought he was an Americano, until they asked him where [01:13:00] he came from. He said, “I’m Puerto Rican,” and even though he was white-skinned, blonde hair, blue-eyed, all that crap, all of a sudden, he was no good. See, that’s the experience. JJ: This was the case, what year it happened? VA: Oh, my God. This was, I think it’s like the early ’80s. A very, very important case. The head of the Puerto Rican Legal Defense Fund at the time, Ruben Franco, was the attorney who defended him. It was heavy. It was heavy. You 29 �know, and it was a wake-up call for a lot of blanquito Puerto Ricans, that thought that they -JJ: (inaudible) VA: -- that they could get, you know, [01:14:00] pass for being American, you know. Yeah. So, you know, I was arrested in 1977. I was the first person -- actually, not the first person either, because David Pérez was arrested when he came and knocked on my door, they thought that he was me, and then -- JJ: Everybody says the first. You were the first in a cell block? (laughs) VA: No, of people accused of being the FALN, before they were prisoners, you know. And I went to jail, spent six months -- JJ: Six months? VA: -- in jail, was bailed out, and I was acquitted in 45 minutes. JJ: A few Young Lords did that for support. VA: Yeah, but I’m saying I was the first of, you know, of that new wave of repression that [01:15:00] came against our movements. They first accused me of the Mobil Oil building bombing in Manhattan, and then they dropped those charges, and a few months later, they rearrested me and accused me of entering a court with a gun. That’s what I was acquitted in 45 minutes on. It was, you know -- they created such a drama about something that didn’t happen, that they lied, they stumbled all over themselves, and the jury saw right through it. But you know, it’s part of what happens when you believe in something and then you stand for something. So, yeah. That’s it. I mean -- one of the things that I think it’s important to note, historically, [01:16:00] in a way it’s very sad, is that the Puerto 30 �Rican movement has been the only national movement capable of freeing political prisoners in the United States. And obviously, there are two ways of freeing political prisoners. You either go and break them out of jail, or you wage a political campaign for their freedom. It’s incorrect to say the only movement, because the Black Liberation movement freed us out of [Shakuma?]. But in terms of political campaigns. In 1950, on November 1 of 1950, Griselio Torresola and Oscar Collazo attacked [01:17:00] Blair house, which was then the residence of President Truman. Griselio Torresola was killed, Oscar Collazo was arrested, sentenced to death, his death sentence was commuted, and he was one of the Nationalists in jail. Then in 1954, Lolita Lebrón, Irvin Flores, and Figueroa Cordero, and Rafael Cancel Miranda attacked the Congress of the United States. Together, they became the five Nationalists in prison. It was those Nationalists that we marched for in 1970, my very first Puerto Rican demonstration down to the United Nations. That was our demand for their freedom. [01:18:00] One of the demands. Also, the independence of Puerto Rico, and the end of police brutality. But the point is that that was the campaign that we were engaged in after I left the Young Lords with Mickey, and [Mifda?], Rodriguez, and other folks. Um, in 1977, after years of mobilizing people to Washington, constantly demanding the release of the five Nationalists -- and I gotta say that a lot of people used to tell us that we were crazy, that those people are gonna die in jail, forget about them people, you’re wasting your time. But we continued, and continued educating, organizing, mobilizing people, [01:19:00] and 1977 came into, for some reason, a moment in that campaign where people were just like, 31 �you know, we’ve been going to Washington for years, and this year, it was becoming difficult to mobilize. In 1975, a second front for that campaign had been opened up when the FALN began bombings, you know, propaganda, acts of armed propaganda, raising the issue of the Nationalist prisoners. We felt that we needed to open up a third front, which would be a front of mass militancy that went beyond just [01:20:00] demonstrations and petitions. And we looked at the Statue of Liberty and we said, “Hm, (laughs) you know, that’s a great image for us to use to do that.” And we went about the business of identifying people who we trusted, who trusted us, our political judgment, so that we did not -- so that we were able to get their commitment to be a part of an action in which they would be arrested without them demanding or needing to know what the action would be. There were only three people that planned this action. It was three former Young Lords, who were Mickey Melendez, Richie Pérez, and I, and we went about [01:21:00] the business of casing the place and studying all the security and transportation, and, you know, all the possibilities, and how to carry this out, and identifying the people, checking the people that we were approaching. And one day, we asked people to meet us in different parts of the city, three teams. We converged on Battery Park in the Lower Manhattan, which is where you take the ferry to Statue of Liberty on the first boat. Um, I was out on bail at the time of the takeover. We had a tremendous battle, Richie, Mickey, and I, about the role that I was to play, because I was out on bail, and they felt, they says, “You get locked up again, you ain’t going home.” [01:22:00] And I was arguing that I was going to go in, no matter what nobody said, you know, and like that, that I 32 �couldn’t lead people to something that I was not going to be about, you know, taking the risk that I was asking people to take. But it was a very tedious process. The night before that morning, we met at a bar, Richie, Mickey, and I, a bar on 14th Street, it was, uh, Blarney Stone, one of those Irish bars. It was [larizula?] trying to talk, and guys were literally swinging from chandeliers, crashing, throwing glasses and bottles, you know, fighting among themselves, and we’re trying to have -- but in a way, it was a great cover for our meetings. We used to have our meetings, you know, in different places all the time. So, you know, the [01:23:00] next few hours later, we went about the plan, executing the plan that we had put together with some variations, because, for example, we have thought about using thumbtacks and Krazy Glue to cement the thumbtacks up the stairs so that the cops would have a hard time getting to the top of the Statue of Liberty to arrest people. And we were going to spread the stairs with motor oil so they would slip down the stairs and fall on thumbtacks. (laughs) And then in the process of our conversation, we say, “Holy shit, but those are the same stairs they’re gonna be bringing the people on.” So, we discarded that idea, you know? And we frankly expected that the takeover [01:24:00] was going to be short lived. We had concerns about the ability to hold the Statue of Liberty long enough for the media to cover the fact we have it taken over. And it didn’t turn out that way, though. What happened was that, because of all of the aura around issues in Puerto Rico, which had to do with the campaign, which had to do with the bombings that were taking place, all of that, it was a media frenzy. And it was also a law enforcement frenzy. When the Statue of Liberty gets taken 33 �over, they start fighting among themselves about who is going to have jurisdiction to do [01:25:00] the arrests of the people in the Statue of Liberty? So, you have the New York City Police Department, you have the FBI, you have the Federal Parks police, you have all these people arguing among themselves, and the hours begin to drag, you know. Something that started out with the first of boat in the morning to the Statue of Liberty, now it’s midafternoon, and these people are still arguing, who’s going to go ahead to arrest these people. And meanwhile, they’re creating all of this drama, the fact that most of the people arrested were not just Puerto Rican, but were North American people, Asians, African Americans, they started circulating amongst the news that [01:26:00] this was a standoff with the FALN and the Black Liberation Army and the Weather Underground. I mean, it was just all kinds of craziness that happened that day. Eventually, they decided they went in and arrested everybody. Twenty-seven people, I believe, were arrested. Involved in the process were 31, I believe it was total, people involved in that action. And it went way beyond our wildest expectations, because that picture became the front-page picture in newspapers around the world. I mean, Belgium, France, Paris, London, England, Australia, [01:27:00] everywhere. We got copies of this papers -- this picture from papers all over the world. And it raised worldwide attention about the case of the five Nationalist prisoners and the colonial case of Puerto Rico. So, we were successful beyond our dreams, and you know what we are projecting. It’s one more thing that we did. JJ: All right. 34 �VA: Yeah. END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7f882233001b834b8cc2cfdb0a51460b.mp4 5e7c3e30a5b3552aa3dbef1e58f51ebe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Vicente “Panama” Alba vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Descripción Spanish language Description entry Vicente “Panamá” Alba es un Young Lord quien nació en Panamá, migro a la ciudad de Nueva York en 1961 y ahora vive en Puerto Rico. El a trabajado por muchos años con la organización Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) de AFL/CIO, quien defiende los trabajadores inmigrantes y los indocumentaditos en los industriosas de recicla y las eliminación de los desechos. Durante la rebelión de Attica, (Septiembre 9, 1971) Señor Alba soportó reclusos en sus negaciones. Señor Alaba ha sido parte de dos tomadas de la Estatua de Libertad, la primera es plantando la bandera de Puerto Rico en la Estatua en parte de una campaña para libertar los Nacionalistas Puertorriqueños que fueron encarcelados y el segundo fue en soportar la lucha de la gente de Vieques. Un ferviente admirador de Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Señor Alba continua abogar por autodeterminación por Puerto Rico y a sido parte de los Nacionalistas y otros grupos, incluyendo unas organizaciones en la comunidad que hacen campañas para libertar los prisioneros de política, uno siendo Oscar López. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Panamañians--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Alba_Vicente_2 Title A name given to the resource Vicente “Panama” Alba video interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alba, Vicente Description An account of the resource Vicente “Panama” Alba is a Young Lord who was born in Panama, immigrated to New York City in 1961, and now lives in Puerto Rico. He worked many years as an organizer with Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) of the AFL/CIO, advocating for immigrant and undocumented workers in the solid waste and recycling industry. During the Attica Rebellion, September 9, 1971, he supported the inmates in their negotiations. Mr. Alba has been involved in two takeovers of the Statue of Liberty, first supporting the occupation and the planting of the Puerto Rican flag on the Statue as part of a campaign to free the Puerto Rican Nationalist prisoners and the second in support of the struggle of the people of Vieques. A fervent admirer of Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Mr. Alba continues to advocate for self-determination for Puerto Rico and has been involved with the Nationalists and other parties, including several community organizing campaigns to free political prisoners, including Oscar López. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Panamanians--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c087142da5a69e3c13e7c14990ea6dcd.pdf b2dbbbacfc64bf7ca2c38ad76da2f9be PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Maria Aviles Interviewers: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 9/27/2018 Runtime: 01:01:38 Biography and Description Maria Isabel de la Torre (maiden name), Maria Isabel Aviles (married name), was born in Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico. She arrived in the US in 1954 to Rochester, NY, and migrated to Chicago in 1958. Her parents were Josephina Davila Vazquez and Victor Manuel de la Torre. They remained in Puerto Rico. She is one of four siblings which lived at 625 W. Webster in the Lincoln Park Neighborhood for about eight years. The family then moved to the Lake View area. Her work experience included administrative work with medical records, hospital admissions and translation (10 years); and retail. She became the co-owner of Gaslight with her husband Wilfredo, and also retired in 2008. Maria is the proud mother of four accomplished children. She describes the abundance of local dances all over Lincoln Park and the adjacent Lakeview neighborhood which was the same barrio for Latinos that stretched from North Avenue to Irving Park and between Clark Street to Racine in the late 1950’s and 1960’s. �Transcript JOSE JIMINEZ: Just start with your name, the date you were born, and where you were born. MARIA AVILES: My name is Maria Aviles. I was born 11/21/47. I’m from Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay. And who were your parents? MA: My mother was Josephina [Bache?] Davila. My father, Victor Manuel de la Torre. JJ: de la Torre? MA: Mmm-hmm. JJ: And how many -- MA: (Spanish)? [00:00:32] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:00:33] MA: I have one brother, the youngest. I’m the oldest. There’s five of us. JJ: What’s your brother’s name? MA: Alan. We call him [Papo?]. You know how that is. Papo. JJ: With the nicknames, yeah. Okay. MA: And then after me is another -- there’s three girls and one boy and myself. JJ: Right. And what’s your name? MA: Okay. [00:01:00] I’m the oldest, and it’s Maria de los Angeles. My mother named us. Then, there’s Yvonne, Marie, Josephine, and Alan. JJ: Maria de los Angeles. So your mother named you (Spanish). [00:01:13] MA: I guess, yeah. (Spanish) [00:01:16] Maria de los Angeles. 1 �JJ: (Spanish)? [00:01:21] MA: (Spanish). [00:01:24] I don’t know. Don’t ask me why. JJ: Oh, don’t ask you why? Okay. MA: I find that a little silly, but that was her wish, you know. JJ: She wanted everybody to be Mary? MA: Yeah, Mary, but we all have nicknames too. I’m Betty. (laughs) JJ: Okay, you’re Betty. MA: From Maria, I went to Betty. And then my sister has a very odd name. Her nickname is [Changele?]. Never heard of it. Then, the next one -- well, no, Yvonne has always stayed with her same name. Then, Josephine is Cookie, and then my brother, Alan -- he’s Papo, so [00:02:00] you know how... JJ: So (Spanish) --? [00:02:03] MA: It doesn’t matter. JJ: Okay. But Maria? MA: Maria, (Spanish) [00:02:08] because everybody, you know... JJ: Okay. So, Maria, did you say what year you came? MA: Oh, lord, that’s gonna be a little hard. I came to -- JJ: (inaudible) MA: -- Rochester, New York first. I was about six years old, and -- JJ: So what year was that about? MA: (laughs) In the ’50s. JJ: In the ’50s? MA: I would say, yeah. 2 �JJ: Fifty-two, ’53? MA: Yeah. I was six, so yeah. JJ: Yeah, you were born ’47, so I would think ’53? MA: But Rochester, New York -- there was hardly any Latinos. There were no Puerto Ricans. It was a very close-knit community ’cause there were hardly any Puerto Ricans, so when I went to school, I didn’t know the [00:03:00] language. And it was horrible, that I remember. JJ: So you spoke only Spanish when you came? MA: At that time, yeah. I mean, I’d go to school, and the kids would steal my lunch, (laughs) and I couldn’t say anything. And then we went to a Catholic school, and the nuns were not very nice. You know, they expected you to speak the language. How could I speak a language if I wasn’t, you know, there to speak it? And then also, I always remember I was the -- after I learned the language, I always had to go with my mom to the doctor so we can translate and, you know - JJ: So you were the translator? MA: Right, mm-hmm. Correct. JJ: So your mother didn’t speak anything? MA: At that time, no. You know, the kids learned it faster, and there were -- JJ: So you were the translator. MA: -- no bilingual schools either. JJ: You just needed somebody to translate it, you know. MA: You wouldn’t find anybody that spoke Spanish in Rochester, New York. 3 �JJ: So how long did you live in Rochester? MA: Oh, I would say about two years [00:04:00] maybe -- JJ: Two years? MA: -- then I came to Chicago. JJ: Okay. So the nuns -- you had a problem with them, or they had a problem. MA: With us, yeah. JJ: And then -- MA: We came to Chicago. JJ: -- you were the translator for your mother, and then you came -- MA: But then she learned the language when I -- JJ: So why did you come to Chicago? MA: ’Cause they wanted a better life and, like I said, almost all my mother’s family lived here, aunts and uncles, you know. ’Cause in Rochester, we didn’t have anybody. JJ: Okay. So where did you live when you came to Chicago? MA: We lived on Lincoln Avenue. JJ: Okay, you came straight to Lincoln Avenue? MA: Yeah, I remember the -- JJ: And that was about what, ’53, you said? Fifty-four? MA: Yeah, it could be, or maybe, you know, a little later, ’55. I was in fourth grade, so maybe, yeah. But the thing was we lived in a one-room apartment. JJ: On Lincoln Avenue? MA: On Lincoln Avenue. 4 �JJ: And what other street? MA: [00:05:00] Oh, God, what is that? JJ: Were you on Halsted, or...? MA: Near Clark? Does -- JJ: Okay, Lincoln and up there by Clark. MA: Near there. I don’t know if you remember Augustana Hospital. Many moons ago, that hospital -- I don’t know if you know -- JJ: Where was Augustana? Was that -- MA: It used to be. JJ: -- closer to...? MA: It’s no longer. It was somewhere near Lincoln Avenue, I remember, Augustana. JJ: And was it closer to [Bell?] Lake? MA: Pardon me? JJ: Was it by the lake? MA: Almost, yeah, I would say, because my mother -- after we settled, we used to go to -- JJ: Oh, no, Lincoln Avenue. Augustana’s over by Armitage. MA: Okay, how, you know -- JJ: Sedgwick and Armitage. MA: Right, around there. JJ: By Old Town, okay. MA: Right. And from there, we moved to -- at that time, it was a rented apartment with furniture. 5 �JJ: Yeah, you were right around Armitage. You were over there on Clark. You said Clark, right? MA: Yeah. Then, we moved to [00:06:00] 625 West Webster; Lincoln and Webster and Halsted. Webster was the street. JJ: And this was in the ’50s? MA: Yeah, ’50s. Then, I went to Lincoln School on -- I don’t know if you remember that. JJ: Yeah, I know where that school is. MA: And then I went to Saint Clement’s Catholic Church. JJ: I don’t know where that’s at [or by?]. MA: Well, there was hardly -- I used to walk on my own, but when my -- JJ: So you told us the school. You went kinda fast. You need water? MA: No, that’s okay. JJ: And don’t worry, you can stop at any -- MA: No, we went to Lincoln School. That was mainly where I graduated eighth grade, and then I went to [Waller?] from -- JJ: So if we could kind of backtrack a little bit, what do you remember of Lincoln School? MA: Well, again, there were a lot of Latinos [00:07:00] at that time ’cause Webster and Halsted was all Latinos at that time. We used to go to St. Vincent de Paul Church. DePaul University had a basketball -- I don’t know if it’s still there. JJ: Yeah, it’s still there. 6 �MA: And my girlfriend and I, when we were in high school -- almost every Friday, they had a game. We’d go there just to go, you know what I mean? A girl thing. Once I turned 15, 16, we had a routine. Friday, we’d do a little shopping. We’d go dancing on Saturday, and Sunday, we’d go to (Spanish) [00:07:41] or San Juan Theatre. See, nobody remembers those. JJ: No, I remember the San Juan. MA: No, I was saying, you know, I think that should’ve been left alone, the San Juan. JJ: So you and your friend went to that. Were there other friends, any particular friends? MA: Oh, yeah, we all had -- [00:08:00] and my sisters -- JJ: Were they Spanish? MA: We all got together on the bus -- JJ: Were they Spanish too? MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish). [00:08:04] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:08:05] MA: Yes. JJ: Okay. So did you guys go to the YMCA too or anything to the dances? MA: Well, once in a while -- when I went to those dances, they invited us. But mainly, my sister -- that’s me, her -- JJ: ’Cause that was a different crowd. It seemed very different. MA: Right. We used to go a lot to -- oh, God, what’s the name of that -- Northwest Hall. JJ: Oh, yeah, I remember Northwest Hall. 7 �MA: Northwest Hall and Crystal Ballroom. JJ: Oh, the Crystal -- okay, I remember -- WILFREDO AVILES: I remember it. JJ: -- it now. (laughter) You remember it? I didn’t know if -- MA: He was in the service, so -- JJ: Oh, don’t say that. MA: I don’t wanna tell you the story. One time, I called the men, and they told me he was somewhere else. I said, “I’m not sitting at home,” [00:09:00] so my -- JJ: I [would?] go from Washington over to Northwest Hall. MA: Yeah, Northwest Hall -- JJ: Yeah, we used to go before that. MA: -- Crystal Ballroom. JJ: The Crystal Ballroom. MA: Those were the two ones. JJ: Those were the main places? Okay. MA: Right, and St. Michael’s. JJ: Yeah, and St. Michael’s. MA: And you know what? As women, we could get on the bus. No one bothered you. We all got on the bus and went to the dances all the way to North Avenue from Webster -- think about the trip -- all of us all decked out. We danced with everybody. It was very respectful. We didn’t look at the guy. If he was big, little -- you know, we just danced. We had a good time -- JJ: ’Cause there were a lot of dances at that -- 8 �MA: -- and then we went back home on the bus. That was it. JJ: ’Cause there were a lot of dances -- MA: Right. JJ: -- at that time. What year was it? MA: Oh, God -- JJ: About? MA: -- the ’60s. JJ: The ’60s. Sixty-one? MA: Sixty-two, maybe. JJ: Sixty-three? MA: No, that was grammar school. WA: Sixty-five. JJ: Sixty-five. MA: Sixty-five, around there, yeah. JJ: Sixty-five. MA: When we were in high school. And, you know, there was no -- JJ: This -- MA: -- IDs for drinks. [00:10:00] We didn’t drink, but I don’t remember anyone ever asking us for an ID, you know, never. When we went to the clubs, it was -- JJ: What kind of music? MA: Oh, salsa, merengue, you know. That’s what we -- JJ: No English music? MA: No, not at that time. 9 �JJ: Never? MA: I used to do the English at school when they had high school dances at Walter, or the YMCA. JJ: But you went with your friends to the Spanish dances? MA: Right. JJ: And it was the Crystal -- MA: And then also, I had a girlfriend, Lydia [Laboy?]. I don’t know if you know -- JJ: Oh, Lydia, yes. MA: Laboy and her -- JJ: The Laboy family. MA: We used to go to dances a lot together, mm-hmm, and then we’d go to the Spanish. And then when they had the Christmas dances at school -- we did both. JJ: Did you go to the -- there was dances at -- where was that [one?]? The Imperial Aces and Queens had dances on Dayton. WA: Imperial Aces? JJ: In the basement. Remember The Imperial? That was (Spanish) [00:10:59] were part of that. MA: That? [00:11:00] No. They were younger to me. WA: Yeah, I don’t know them. JJ: But I mean, they were a club by that time. MA: No, I never -- JJ: So St. Vincent is a different crowd? 10 �MA: Right. JJ: Different kind of crowd. That was not a club. WA: St. Vincent had -- JJ: But I’m just saying that there were dances at the church on [Clark and?] -- MA: Oh, yeah, we went to the church dances. JJ: And there was another place on Webster. MA: Mm-hmm. We got married there, [Swiss Hall?]. JJ: Was it Swiss Hall? MA: Yes, sir. JJ: That was the name of the [venue?]? WA: It used to be a donut shop or something. JJ: That’s right, Clyde’s Donuts, yeah. MA: My mother worked at Clyde’s. JJ: That was the donuts they used to give us every day. (laughter) WA: [That was the old days?]. MA: See, all my family lived on Webster. My aunt lived on one floor. My mother lived on another floor. Next door was my other aunt. You know, everybody lived there. JJ: By Clark? MA: No, Webster near -- WA: Right, that’s -- MA: -- Waller High School. JJ: Oh, by Waller. 11 �WA: Lincoln, maybe. MA: Yeah, Lincoln. WA: Lincoln and Webster. JJ: Lincoln and Webster, right around there? MA: Yeah, and my mother worked at Grant Hospital. [00:12:00] Yeah, she worked there. I have a lot of memories. And then she would take us to North Avenue Beach. That was the spot to all the Puerto Ricans. That’s all you saw there. I don’t know. JJ: What was that like at North Avenue Beach? ’Cause I mean, if somebody had -- MA: You felt at home because, you know, you saw everybody, more or less, that you knew in the summer. My mother used to walk us from Webster to North Avenue over the bridge to the beach, but we had to clean the house before we left. (laughs) That’s the way it was, you know. Like you said -- JJ: Okay, so you had to clean the house. So, you know, the women, basically, in the neighborhood -- MA: I resented every moment. (laughs) JJ: No, we basically saw them only at the dances, so were they kept at home? MA: Oh, sure, are you kidding? You couldn’t even laugh. JJ: I’m leading you on. MA: Well, at least with -- JJ: I don’t wanna lead you on or anything. I don’t want -- MA: [00:13:00] No, but we as women, Spanish, Puerto Rican, at least my mother -- JJ: What was that like growing up as a woman at that -- 12 �MA: You couldn’t do this. You couldn’t do that. You know, you couldn’t go out with guys like that like today. Are you kidding? I had to be home by 9:00. My mother never let us stay overnight at anybody’s home, even upstairs. My cousins lived upstairs. You didn’t go up and stay overnight. That’s the way it was in those days, and you only went out with her, the girls, you know. That was -- JJ: With your mother? MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: So the girls only went out with her? MA: At that time, mm-hmm. It was very different. And then I had a job at Children’s Memorial Hospital. I worked in the kitchen while I was in high school, almost all of my four years of [00:14:00] high school, and -- JJ: So you were cooking? What were you doing? MA: Well, every floor there -- not anymore, but they used to bring these big carts with the food, and then you distribute it to each floor. JJ: Oh, okay, to the rooms and that? MA: Mm-hmm, yeah. JJ: And you did that for a while. What other jobs did you do? MA: Oh, wow. I worked at Montgomery Wards Catalog where you took orders over the phone. I did that. I did the Kelly Girl -- I don’t know if you remember Kelly Girl. JJ: I heard the name. MA: Let’s say someone needed someone in the office for a month to do stuff. Then, you would go and file or answer phones. I did that. And then what else did I do? 13 �Babysat, stuff like that, then I worked at Frank Cuneo Hospital. I don’t know if you knew that one. JJ: I heard the name of that one, [00:15:00] yeah. MA: I worked there; it’s a Catholic hospital. I worked there, mainly, 15 years. JJ: Okay. So what did you do there at -- MA: I was an admitting clerk and did medical records. Mainly, I was more -- JJ: A secretary for the -- MA: They needed a bilingual person, and you know, I got the job. JJ: But 15 years, so that was pretty good. Good pay and everything? It was pretty...? MA: Oh, no, I’m telling you I got good pay there at that time. I couldn’t complain, yeah. But I remember, you know, times were very different from today. JJ: In what way? MA: Well, you know, you respected your parents. You couldn’t even talk -- in the old days, your mother would tell you, “We’re going to visit so-and-so. You sit there. If you want to use the bathroom, you let me know.” (laughs) [00:16:00] Today, kids take over the house. You know, I don’t know. Maybe I’m wrong, but it was very different whether or not -- WA: This would never [be there?] today. JJ: What do you mean? You’d just sit there even if you had to use the bathroom? MA: That’s right. Unless she talked to you, you couldn’t get up. JJ: Do you think that was good, or today is better? MA: It was horrible. (laughter) 14 �JJ: I mean, I don’t know. I’m not gonna judge it. MA: It was horrible. You know, and then we went to Puerto Rico to visit, you know, my grandmother and that; also very strict, you know. You can’t do that. You can’t do this. Today, the kids walk in the house like it’s nothing. JJ: So you think your mother learned from your grandmother? MA: Oh, sure. My grandmother was a tyrant. (laughs) JJ: And your daughter doesn’t [pay attention?]? MA: Well, they respected us, but I don’t think I was as strict, you know. [00:17:00] (laughs) Well, in some respects, yeah, because our culture -- my oldest daughter wanted to go to the mall all the time, and I told her, “You’re not going to the mall, I’m sorry.” You know, you would go to the mall, and today, the kids go somewhere else. Who knows where they go? So I already saw that, you know, so they would get upset at me. But it’s very different, the bringing up. JJ: And you mentioned your brothers, so you mentioned your brothers’ names too, right? MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: So how were you with your brothers? MA: Well, I was the oldest, so I had to take care of these kids. (laughs) And I’m not gonna say names. There was one that would be horrible. She would make fun of me. “Oh, you have to do this.” “I don’t have to,” you know, things like that. And my [00:18:00] mother worked Saturday and Sunday at a hospital, so I had to take care of them. And then my great-aunt lived upstairs, so she would call my mother when we got into, you know, fights and that, I’ll be honest with you. It 15 �was horrible, you know. Then, when my mother got home, oh, heaven forbid. You know, you were responsible. JJ: Did your mother always work, or...? MA: Oh, yeah. My mother worked until -- JJ: She had a lot of hours [she had to?] -- MA: My God, after she retired, she worked. A practical nurse, she was, mm-hmm. And for the -- JJ: And, you know, you mentioned about translating. MA: Mm-hmm. And then she -- JJ: And you mentioned that you had to take her to the -- MA: Yeah, at the beginning. JJ: Okay, so that would -- MA: And then she -- JJ: Most of your life? MA: Well -- JJ: You were like her assistant, you know, trying to... MA: But it was very different. I mean, [00:19:00] I respected my mother. Let’s put it that way because my father lived in Puerto Rico, and my mother remarried. So, you know, whatever she told me, that was it, you know? My other sister -- JJ: You wanna share about what she told you? MA: Oh, no, she would tell me you can’t laugh at -- JJ: And they split up, you know, with the -- 16 �MA: Oh, yeah. (Spanish)? [00:19:31] My mother was a very hard worker. That, I must say about her, a very hard worker. She would make me laugh because -now, I laugh; I used to cry. She used to comb our hair the night before, and it better be like that when you woke up in the morning. (laughs) Can you imagine? Oh, my God. But she would leave your breakfast. She was very, you know, homebodied, [00:20:00] yeah. JJ: But then she left, and then you were in charge of them? MA: Right. You know, when you got out of school, I had to make sure -- and I have a sister that was horrible. She was very defiant. I was the nerd, and she was, you know -- we won’t say who she... (laughs) JJ: So what sort of things did you do with your sister? With your brothers and sisters, what sort of -- MA: Well, we had chores, you know, when my mother was working. JJ: What kinda chores? I mean, that you -- MA: Clean the house. Clean the bathroom. Make sure all the stuff is done, but there was one that always made fun ’cause if they didn’t do it, I had to do it. ’Cause then when my mother got home, I’m the one, you know? JJ: What about in terms of games and that sort of -- what are the -- MA: Oh, no, we played, at that time, the jump-roping. [00:21:00] Some of the Spanish games, I don’t even remember anymore, but -- (Spanish)? [00:21:04] JJ: (Spanish) [00:21:07] [You played?] (inaudible)? MA: Oh, yeah. JJ: You played it in your house, that stuff? 17 �MA: Oh, yeah, bingo. We played -- JJ: It wasn’t legal. MA: Pardon? JJ: It wasn’t legal. MA: I know, but it was played. I had an aunt that loved that game, and she played it all the time. JJ: But did people come over for it? MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish). [00:21:24] JJ: Oh, (Spanish)? [00:21:26] So the (Spanish) [00:21:30] would come and sell you numbers? MA: (Spanish). [00:21:31] JJ: With the numbers and everything? MA: Oh, (Spanish), [00:21:34] and (Spanish) [00:21:35] [Don Taco?] was his name. I always remember him when I was a kid. He would come. “(Spanish)?” [00:21:42] And then he’d take ’em out of his sleeves. (laughter) JJ: And then he told you your dream? MA: You picked a number. JJ: Did he tell you about your dream and all that? MA: Oh, yeah, and that was always (Spanish). [00:21:56] It never came out, but [00:22:00] they still played it, you know. Then, I had a great-uncle. He would take us on Chicago Avenue on Sundays. I think that little stand is still there, the hot dog stand in Ashland. JJ: Chicago and Ashland, okay. 18 �MA: Now, it’s called Duk’s -- JJ: It’s gotta be -- MA: -- but it used to be a little hot dog stand. WA: It would be in Ashland. MA: Yeah, and we used to go there -- WA: And we’d go to -- JJ: So that's by the Gaslight. So you guys were hanging out on Chicago Avenue and Ashland? MA: It didn’t even dawn on -- JJ: No, I don’t mean hanging out. I mean, that was the area you guys were from, or...? MA: No, I’m mainly Webster and Lincoln. JJ: But you guys would go to Chicago Avenue. MA: Right. No, my uncle would pick us up. My -- JJ: And take you there? MA: And take us on Sunday to eat hot dogs at -- JJ: Because they had the bakery and all that right there, right? MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish), [00:22:44] yeah. JJ: Yeah. Well, it was some kind of restaurant over there, no? MA: Where? JJ: On Chicago Avenue? WA: There’s a lot of restaurants. JJ: Yeah, a couple restaurants in that area. 19 �MA: But the Puerto Rican restaurants -- there weren’t too many. JJ: Not too many? Okay. MA: [00:23:00] No. WA: You had that one in -- MA: [One time?] -- WA: Cafe Central . MA: Cafe Central, yeah. JJ: Cafe Central, yeah. That’s what I was gonna say, yeah. It’s been there – it’s still there. MA: Oh, is it still there? WA: Yeah, it’s still there. JJ: Yeah, it’s still there. MA: We haven’t been around. WA: [Mike?], his wife, and his son took it over. JJ: Oh, the other guy? Okay. MA: Mm-hmm. WA: Yeah, when he [passed away?] -- JJ: Yeah, I think I was gonna go there today. MA: Yeah, but the big thing for me was we used to go to the San Juan Theatre and see all these people. See, people don’t -- JJ: That was on Division, right? 20 �MA: On Division. We used to see all the Spanish, you know, singers, actors. Mainly Puerto Rican, and then The Senate. I don’t know if you’re familiar with The Senate Theatre and (Spanish). [00:23:41] JJ: (Spanish), [00:23:43] yeah. MA: There was more Mexican down by -- what was the name -- WA: Milwaukee Avenue. MA: Yeah, but the name of that big store. WA: Where, on Lincoln Avenue? MA: No, it was near the Catholic [00:24:00] church, that big Mexican church on -- JJ: Oh, Guadalupe? MA: Uh-huh. WA: Roosevelt? MA: Right. What was the name of that? JJ: Oh, no, St. Francis. MA: Terry’s. JJ: Oh, that’s it. Okay, Terry’s. What was Terry’s? MA: That was a big department store. WA: Yeah, it’s a -- MA: We used to -- WA: -- clothing store. MA: -- go to mass and then go shopping in there. JJ: So you went to St. Francis Church? MA: We went to -- you know, it depended. 21 �JJ: You went to that mass right next to Terry’s? MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: So that’s -- MA: St. Francis. JJ: -- Spanish because they had Spanish masses. MA: Right, in those days, yeah. JJ: And it was mainly Mexican, and Puerto Ricans went there too. Oh, you went there too? My mother went there. MA: Yeah, and St. Vincent also was all Puerto Rican mass at that time because we used to go -- JJ: Right, St. Vincent would do Puerto Rican masses. MA: In those days, yeah. JJ: So they had a (Spanish) [00:24:43] there? MA: Right. JJ: [Yeah, that’s what I thought?]. MA: They had a lot of dances there, yeah. JJ: So yeah, you didn’t -- MA: It was Father -- oh, what was his name? JJ: So you were part of the (Spanish), [00:24:53] or you just went to mass? MA: No, we weren’t really -- JJ: You -- 22 �MA: -- that attached to it. But we used to go when they had the dances [00:25:00] or if they had some -- you know, they used to do a lot of baking and selling. We would go. What was the name of the father? WA: Father [Reines?]? MA: No. WA: [I remember him?]. JJ: Oh, you remember Father Reines from St. -- MA: No, Father Reines from St. Michael’s. JJ: You’re thinking St. -- WA: No, (inaudible). MA: Oh, was it? JJ: And now, it’s a -- WA: Now, it’s a park. JJ: North Park, yeah. MA: Oh, what’s his name? He married us. JJ: Father Catherine, I’m talking about. WA: Oh, [he was?] -- MA: No, he was Spanish. I forgot his last name. Guiterrez? WA: No. MA: I know that it was a Spanish -- WA: Well, we got his name. It’s on the -- MA: Yeah, but St. Vincent -- JJ: He wrote it down on the paper. (laughter) 23 �MA: -- was a big Spanish church at that time. JJ: Yeah, and it became -- MA: ’Cause Halsted was all Puerto Rican around there. JJ: Halsted and what? MA: Halsted and Webster, and all of those -- WA: North Avenue down through Webster. MA: Because my uncle -- JJ: Through Webster? MA: Maybe you know my uncle. I’m gonna -- JJ: What’s your uncle’s name? MA: -- drop his name: Domingo Davila. JJ: No, you mentioned Domingo. P1: [Erica Imez?]. MA: Erica, okay. He used to give a lot of [00:26:00] dances down there. JJ: Oh, that’s Erica’s uncle? P1: He’s our -- MA: He’s my uncle. JJ: He’s your uncle? P1: -- great-uncle, her uncle. MA: My uncle, and he used to do a lot of dances down there. JJ: You mean in the -- MA: Northwest Hall, Crystal Ballroom, and my girlfriend and I -- JJ: So that’s who did the dances here? 24 �MA: Some of the time, yeah. But the funny part is that he would give a -- JJ: Now, this is not the guy with the large -- MA: No, he’s very -- JJ: Okay, not this guy, because he had a big -- P1: Big beard? JJ: -- sideburns or something. MA: Who is that, I wonder. JJ: But that’s not him, then, that -- MA: No. JJ: -- [you’re talking about?]? MA: He’s older than us. But the thing was that he would give us tickets -- JJ: I think he bought Northwest Hall later, the guy I’m thinking about. MA: Yeah. He would give us tickets to go down Halsted Street and sell ’em. (laughs) I always remember that. JJ: Well, for The Queen when they were -- MA: Oh, don’t get me started on those ones. (laughs) JJ: What do you mean, on the tickets for The Queen? You sold those? MA: Oh, yeah, we sold [00:27:00] all of them. JJ: I heard something, but I don’t know what the -- MA: Yeah, we sold that, and we -- JJ: How does that work? MA: He did the Boys Club, my uncle. JJ: Okay, the Boys Club on -- 25 �MA: And we all got in -- pardon? JJ: On -- MA: When they -- JJ: -- Orchard, or...? MA: I don’t remember. JJ: [Verde?]. MA: Maybe, because when they did the first Puerto Rican Parade, we were a part of it because of my uncle. JJ: And you’re talking about in ’66? MA: Right. JJ: That one, okay. MA: We went down State Street, whatever it was, yeah. JJ: Okay. Oh, yeah, that was the first one on State Street. It went to State Street, yeah. MA: We were part of that parade. JJ: That was the official -- MA: Yeah, official parade. JJ: They had one in Holy Name, you know, but that was the first one here. MA: But now, you know, they don’t give it downtown anymore, I guess, so... JJ: Well, they don’t do it in the neighborhood anymore. MA: In the neighborhood on Division and -- JJ: On Division into -- MA: Been a while, mm-hmm. 26 �JJ: So the Crystal Ballroom, [00:28:00] the Northwest Hall, Domingo Davila, (laughter) and then the (Spanish) [00:28:09] and all that -- you’re involved in all the -- MA: Yeah, I’ve been -- JJ: -- Puerto Rican stuff at St. Vincent’s. Okay, so that -- MA: My mother, after she came from the hospital, worked a couple of nights at Clyde’s Donuts. See, our house was right there. JJ: Right on Webster Avenue? MA: Right by -- JJ: Yeah, it was all Puerto Rican. MA: Yeah, and then Swiss Hall -- JJ: But now, it’s Oz Park. They made it a park. MA: Yeah, now that’s all a park. JJ: Yeah, it’s a -- MA: We got married at Swiss Hall. Yeah, I remember -- JJ: And that’s the one on Webster? MA: Right, Webster. We lived at 625 -- JJ: Now, do you remember going to parties there? MA: Oh, yeah, they used to have a lot of -- JJ: A lot of dances and that. MA: -- parties. Even that radio disc jockey, WLS, used to have parties in there. I remember, as a kid, seeing them, yeah. 27 �JJ: So what was it like? So [00:29:00] that’s an important area that we’re trying to let people know about and describe what -- so you lived right on that block? MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: So what was it like in summer -- MA: Oh, it was really nice ’cause it was all Spanish, and we all sat at (Spanish) [00:29:16] to talk. JJ: On the stairs and that? MA: And, you know, that was it. It was all families. And then if it got too hot, we went to -- not Garfield. Where they had the flowers on Lincoln Park -- what is it? JJ: Oh, the flower shop? MA: The big flower -- JJ: The big flower place right outside of it. MA: And they have a fountain. JJ: And the fountain -- P1: And the fountain -- MA: And my mother would take us there to cool off, and then we’d go home and go to bed. JJ: Did you guys go swimming? MA: (laughs) Yeah, I’m -- JJ: You jumped in -- MA: -- being honest. JJ: -- the little pond, and that’s what -- MA: We’d go in the pond around eight o’clock at night and then -- 28 �JJ: I jumped in there too. MA: Right, and then we’d go home, and that was our air condition, [00:30:00] you know. That was it, and then we’d go home. JJ: And it’s just down the street from Webster, yeah. MA: Yeah, I remember that. JJ: And the zoo was free. Everything was free. MA: Everything, yep. And then remember, there were no seatbelts, so you got (Spanish) [00:30:13] inside the car, (laughs) you know? I had one. You know, the older kids held onto the little kids, and we just drove very happy. JJ: And then there were a lot of other families [living there also?]? MA: Oh, yeah. Like I told you, you know, we Puerto Ricans at that time had to take the whole neighborhood. (Spanish), [00:30:32] and everybody went, you know? Now, it’s like, “Let me call them first,” you know. It’s very different, you know. That’s what I see, you know, that my kids -- one day, they’re gonna forget. They’re more Americanized. One time, my daughter said, “Why did you come here?” I said, “Your grandmother [00:31:00] brought me here. What did you want me to do? I couldn’t do anything, you know?” We were brought by other people, you know, and that’s the way life is, you know? JJ: Well, how did you feel about being -- MA: Well, I was little -- JJ: -- brought over here? MA: -- so you know, the first year, I was really crying, I’ll be honest with you, ’cause I couldn’t talk the language. I remember I went outside, and my mother didn’t 29 �even think. I was playing with the snow. I froze my hands, you know, ’cause that’s how it was, you know? No one told us anything, you know, so that’s the way it was then. It was very different lifestyle to today. And then the holidays -you didn’t need to have a party. Everybody came over. You brought something; we all cooked. We danced in a little house. Now, today, you can’t even visit people ’cause, “Oh, no, [00:32:00] call me.” Not in those days. People used to come, and little kids, big adult -- we all danced, everybody. Didn’t matter, you know? JJ: Okay, the adults and the kids -- MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish). [00:32:14] JJ: So people were just into dancing? MA: For the holiday. Let’s say Noche Buena. You were preparing (Spanish), [00:32:23] you know, everything. JJ: Well, I mean, what did you do, I mean, for Noche Buena, for example? MA: Oh, wow. My mother -- JJ: What Noche Buena? Which one? MA: The 24th. Yeah, that’s Noche -- JJ: So what did you do? How did you do it? MA: Well, we all got ready, you know, for that day. Like I told you, they all lived -- JJ: What do you mean, ready? I mean, what did you -- MA: Oh, we made pasteles. We did (Spanish). [00:32:46] At that time, there weren’t that many big stores that sold (Spanish), [00:32:52] so my uncle -- I remember him going somewhere far. I don’t know where he would go to purchase it, and 30 �then he’d bring it [00:33:00] and cook it. And we cooked there, and we just sat around, you know, and danced. And that was it. That was our Noche Buena. JJ: In your -- MA: In our house. JJ: Right there on Webster? MA: Right on Webster. JJ: Right on there? MA: I remember we rolled up the curtains if it got too hot in the house and opened (Spanish), [00:33:21] and you had a good time, you know. Now, everything is, “What are we gonna do,” (laughs) you know. It’s very different. WA: [Some people?]... JJ: Trying to add -- so how was school? Tell me about your school. MA: It was Waller. I wasn’t -- JJ: You went to Waller? MA: Mm-hmm. I went to Waller. JJ: Did you graduate from Waller? MA: Yeah, mm-hmm. I was the last class that graduated in January. [00:34:00] I don’t know if you remember that they used to have classes graduating in January and one in June. I’ll never forget Jose [Sias?] was so -- JJ: Jose Sias? MA: Jose Sias. (Spanish), [00:34:13] they used to call him. JJ: Oh, that was (Spanish)? [00:34:16] MA: Yeah. 31 �JJ: That’s what I thought. But were they related, [Louis?] Sias -- MA: Oh, yeah, they’re brothers. JJ: They’re brothers, okay. MA: Oh, yeah, and he graduated -- JJ: Oh, so one was called (Spanish). [00:34:25] MA: (Spanish), [00:34:26] yeah. JJ: Okay, I remember that. WA: Five brothers in the family. MA: Mm-hmm, and we graduated together. And Lydia Laboy graduated with me, and I think -- JJ: So there were a lot of people in the Laboy family, right? MA: Right. Louis -- JJ: Louis and -- MA: -- Lydia, Michael. I remember -- JJ: So you guys grew up together? MA: We went to school together at Walter. JJ: What do you remember about them? MA: Oh, Lydia and I were very good friends. It’s a shame. Now, we don’t keep in contact, but her and I worked together. We went out together. She slept at my house, you know, and [00:35:00] things like that, yeah. JJ: Where are they from? Do you know where they’re from, or...? MA: No, I don’t know. JJ: Okay. But they were just good friends from school? 32 �MA: Yeah, from school, her and I. Lydia, mm-hmm. JJ: So you had a few friends that kinda hung around. What did you guys do? MA: Like girls being girls, we used to get together at somebody’s house and just listen to music and talk, you know, stuff like that. JJ: Spanish music? MA: Yeah, Spanish or English. JJ: Or English. I mean, what kinda English songs did you listen to? MA: Oh, God, all the popular ones. JJ: Who were the popular ones? Do you remember any? MA: Oh, yeah. JJ: “It’s twine time!” (laughter) I’m just kidding. MA: There was so many, oh, my God. JJ: Were the -- MA: “The Mashed Potatoes”, Chubby Checkers. JJ: Oh, Chubby Checkers and “The Mashed Potatoes”. We all knew that. MA: Brenda Lee. JJ: “Wipe Out.” MA: “Wipe Out”, yeah. JJ: So you guys remember that? MA: Yeah, sure. JJ: I know you had to remember ’cause we were at the same dances. WA: [Yeah, just about?]. MA: Yeah, I [00:36:00] used to listen a lot to WLS, Dick Biondi. 33 �JJ: Oh, Biondi, that’s who it was? MA: At that time, yeah. JJ: So that’s why I asked you about that church on Lincoln. It was The Peoples Church [later?], but they used to have dances there with the Imperial Aces and Queens. And I remember walking in there one time. Everybody was doing cartwheels and everything. MA: Oh, really? JJ: Yeah. You know, they used to do the split and all that. Did you do all that? MA: All the guys, yeah. I remember -- WA: We never went to that church. JJ: You never been there? MA: No, but we went -- JJ: And then there was that -- in Webster too, they did it. MA: Yeah, on -- JJ: It was the same crowd. WA: [It was?] -- JJ: At Saint Teresa’s, they had dances, didn’t they? MA: Oh, yeah, Saint Teresa. You’re right. JJ: So you went to Saint Teresa? MA: Some dances, yeah. It was mainly, like I said, St. Michael’s, St. Vincent, yeah. JJ: So there was dances all over that area over there? MA: Yeah, that was -- WA: [And the?] -- 34 �JJ: Do you remember that too, [00:37:00] Freddy, the dances? WA: I mean, not all of them besides the -- MA: (Spanish) [00:37:02] San Juan -- JJ: [And you went together?]? WA: Yeah, (Spanish). [00:37:04] MA: -- used to have a lot of dances too. (Spanish) -- [00:37:05] JJ: That’s right. (Spanish) [00:37:06] San Juan had a lot of dances. WA: [There was a lot?] we used to go to. MA: I think that’s why we kept busy, you know, ’cause there were a lot of activities. JJ: So was it a community, or...? MA: Yeah, I would say a community. JJ: Well, what does that mean to you, community? MA: Well, that you knew each other. When you went there, you knew everybody, you know? The majority of the people, you would know, so you knew there wasn’t gonna be any problems, you know, ’cause you knew each other. Like I tell you, we used to go to the dances, get on the bus, just the girls. We never had any problems with anybody on the bus, or that they’d look at you strange, you know. Never had -- JJ: So there really wasn’t a gang there? MA: No. JJ: It was more like a -- WA: Never. JJ: -- community with projects -- 35 �MA: Right, community. WA: That’s what I said. JJ: -- and dancing and sports and...? MA: Right. JJ: So, you know, like Freddy was saying, sports. And you’re saying about the dances that the girls went out to dance and [00:38:00] just had a good time? MA: Oh, our routine was -- like I said, Friday, we’d go shopping for what we’re gonna wear Saturday to go dancing. And then Sunday, we’d go to one of the theaters; (Spanish), [00:38:13] San Juan, or Senate. One of those three, we would go. The same crowd that we -- JJ: And were they mostly Puerto Rican? MA: Oh, yeah, mm-hmm. JJ: So you said before that Halsted and Webster, that whole area, was -- MA: It was all Puerto Ricans. JJ: All Puerto Rican. You mentioned North Avenue up to Diversey or Webster? WA: Yeah. MA: Mm-hmm. JJ: How big was the Puerto Rican community around that time? MA: I would say by us, it was, at that time -- JJ: From what street to what street? MA: Lincoln Avenue -- JJ: Around there? MA: -- Halsted, Dickens. 36 �WA: Yeah. [Ralph Comiez?] used to live on North Avenue and Halsted. MA: Yeah, all that would cover -- WA: I had a lot [of family that was?] -- JJ: North Avenue and what? WA: [00:39:00] And Halsted. JJ: And Halsted? So from North Avenue to Halsted to...? WA: All the way to Walter. JJ: All the way to -- WA: Or Webster. JJ: To Webster? WA: Yeah. Well, into -- JJ: And then from -- MA: You know where -- JJ: From Clyde to where, to Southport or Racine? MA: No, Southport wasn’t -- JJ: No Southport? WA: No, sir. MA: Southport -- JJ: And then what’s up north? WA: It’s to Clark East. JJ: (inaudible). MA: But I would say -- JJ: Oh, from Clark to Racine, would you say, or...? 37 �WA: No. MA: I would say the Puerto Rican community was up to Clark where the Century was. Remember the Century? JJ: Uh-huh. MA: There, it became more -- you know, it was different. But from Webster up to Clark -- ’cause I remember my mother would take us to the AMP there, and it was a little different crowd, you know what I mean? But I would say once you hit the Century, it was more white area. JJ: Right, okay, ’cause that’s by Diversey. MA: Right. I remember when we’d go to the Century, [00:40:00] it was a little different atmosphere. People would look at you funny like, “What are you doing here,” you know? (laughter) JJ: (Spanish) [00:40:07] hanging around by the Century. WA: [He knows I?] -- JJ: He knows what I mean. MA: It’s true. JJ: I’m joking. MA: Yeah, no, but it was like that. It’s true. You know, out of your comfort zone, you know, that you had to be... JJ: But from Clark -- MA: Halsted. JJ: -- at least to Sheffield. MA: St. Vincent -- yeah, Sheffield. Yeah, it covered all -- 38 �JJ: So that’s a big area. MA: Oh, yeah, it was. I remember Halsted was all Puerto Rican, the majority, at least that I saw. Lincoln Avenue -- JJ: And everybody just moved down and -- MA: You know, I don’t know what happened. I don’t know. JJ: -- made all their money and left. MA: It must’ve been, yeah. JJ: And what happens -- WA: I don’t know. I mean -- JJ: What do you think -- MA: I think -- WA: The areas I lived in -- MA: -- it got too expensive. WA: Sure, it did. That’s how you [00:41:00] drive people out if they can’t handle it. MA: And think about it. That used to be all homes, and now it’s Oz Park. That’s where we lived, right there. JJ: So, I mean, how do you feel -- that was your neighborhood. MA: It’s sad, you know, but that’s the way... JJ: That’s the way life is? MA: Yeah, you know, everything goes in a circle, you know. WA: Gentrification, you know? MA: It is. JJ Like Freddy said, gentrification, so... 39 �WA: Gotta go with the new. JJ: “We’re gonna buy another house.” MA: (laughter) No, we’re done. JJ: I’m joking. WA: I’m done. JJ: I’m just giving -- no, gentrification. That’s what it is. WA: That’s it. MA: Yeah, that’s what it is. JJ: It’s ridiculous. [I mean that?]. MA: Yeah. If you can’t afford it, you gotta move, you know? JJ: So do you feel any anger, or no? MA: You know -- JJ: I guess not ’cause it’s not -- WA: You can’t be remorseful because -- MA: Well, you know what? WA: -- in those old days, there was no (inaudible). MA: Certain neighborhoods, I would’ve really loved to have stayed, I’ll be honest with you. I would’ve liked to stay by Byron when we lived on Byron [00:42:00] and Southport. JJ: That’s Freddy Aviles, your husband, speaking [out of you?]. MA: (laughs) No. I can’t tell you the story -- JJ: He’s trying to speak for you. (laughter) I’m kidding. 40 �MA: No, I always liked the house there. You know, I would’ve retired there on Southport, but you know, life has other plans for you, so... JJ: So you guys had a house on Southport, is that right? MA: Southport and Byron, yeah. JJ: Okay, yeah, he mentioned that. MA: And it’s still there, and they haven’t done a thing with it. That’s what makes me laugh, (Spanish), [00:42:32] Fred? WA: Mm-hmm. MA: They haven’t remodeled it. They haven’t done anything with it. JJ: So were there any dance contests? Now, I’m taking you away from that. MA: Oh, there was all -- you know what? I don’t think there were any dance contests. WA: There weren’t any dance contests, no, that would -- JJ: Besides Freddy, who else was a good dancer? MA: Oh, God, a lot of the guys were good dancers -- JJ: Yeah, the guys were? MA: -- just like the girls. There were a lot of people that would go dancing. JJ: Which girls were good dancers? WA: [00:43:00] Half of them, who knows, were there. MA: You know, like I said, we all danced. I don’t know. JJ: Now, do you remember ever going out to other places besides the dancing? MA: Oh, yeah, we went places. JJ: Were there picnics at the high school? MA: Oh, no -- 41 �JJ: School picnics? MA: -- we had picnics from school, yeah. JJ: From the school? MA: No, we did our own picnics -- JJ: In the neighborhood? MA: -- in the school. JJ: In the school? MA: We called it a school picnic, but we did it -- JJ: Okay, so -- MA: -- the kids. JJ: -- [you did it?]? MA: Yeah. JJ: But I mean some Puerto Ricans going out and kind of -- MA: Oh, no, we did a lot of that, yeah. JJ: A lot of that? MA: (Spanish) [00:43:34] San Juan did a lot of that. JJ: So (Spanish) [00:43:37] San Juan did some picnics? MA: Yeah. And the Puerto Rican Police. WA: Police Association. JJ: Oh, the Puerto Rican Police Association? MA: They did picnics, yeah. JJ: They would have picnics? MA: Oh, yes. 42 �WA: The Puerto Rican Chamber of Commerce. JJ: Okay. And you guys were both together with them? WA: Yeah, sure. MA: Mm-hmm. WA: I was involved with ’em. JJ: With the Puerto Rican Chamber of Commerce? MA: Mm-hmm. WA: Sure. JJ: Okay. Were you involved with the Puerto Rican -- WA: The parade. JJ: -- Police Association? Oh, with the Puerto Rican Parade Committee. [00:44:00] WA: (Spanish), [00:44:00] yeah. JJ: You were with them? WA: I was in the parade. I was a director there also in the Chamber of Commerce. JJ: In the Chamber of Commerce? MA: Mm-hmm. WA: I was the treasurer. JJ: Okay. And did you go to the YMCA also with him? MA: With me? I think I -- WA: I think twice, yeah. MA: -- went to a couple of dances, but no. But my mother had my uncle pick me up at 10:00 when the fun was going on. (laughter) JJ: [Not even at midnight?]. 43 �MA: I’d be so embarrassed because I’d see him looking for me. At ten o’clock? Come on. (laughter) JJ: “Give me a break, man!” MA: Yeah. So the way -- JJ: But that’s the way the women at that time -- MA: Well -- JJ: Or just you? MA: Just me. JJ: [They didn’t let?] -- MA: We won’t go into my sisters. (laughs) JJ: Your sisters could stay? MA: They didn’t listen. JJ: Oh, they didn’t listen. They just stayed. MA: They did whatever they wanted. [00:45:00] Hey... JJ: I mean, do you think that that helped? Was it too strict? MA: You know what? I’m not gonna blame anyone. I did whatever they told me; let’s put it that way. I shouldn’t blame other people. You know, it’s just, you know, your character, I guess. I don’t know. You know, I didn’t wanna see my mom worried about us, you know. She already had enough to worry, you know? But my sisters had a great time in life. JJ: So why do you think they were that strict? I mean, what was the -- MA: I don’t know. I believe that’s the way they were brought up. I think it repeats itself. 44 �JJ: So you didn’t understand why you were -- MA: At that time? No. I was not very happy. (laughs) JJ: You were not happy, and you didn’t understand why? MA: Right. JJ: Did you try to do that with your children? MA: You know, you’d have to ask them. I think I wasn’t [00:46:00] as strict as my mother was. At least my daughters used to go out, you know, with me or with -you know who she only let me go -- JJ: They went out with you, though? MA: Yeah. JJ: That’s what your mother said. You’d go out with her. MA: Right. You know who she believed in letting me go out with? My husband. She wouldn’t let me go out with any other guy but him. JJ: But Freddy? MA: (laughs) I swear to you. I don’t know. JJ: He had a way with her. MA: Right. She liked him right away. WA: She said, “He’s a good person with, you know, a good face. He has a great face.” MA: Little did she know. JJ: That he was the worst guy you knew. (laughter) MA: (Spanish), [00:46:44] you know. JJ: So little did she know that he wasn’t that (inaudible). 45 �MA: Right. But if Fred would come pick me up, it was okay. JJ: But at least, hey, 51 years, you’ve been married. MA: Oh, right. I’ll never forget I had a friend -- JJ: Fifty-one years, you’ve been married. That’s pretty good. MA: Yeah, but then I felt embarrassed. I had a [00:47:00] friend -- he was just a friend. It was nothing -- so he came and asked my mother, “Well, can I take Betty to a dance on the South Side?” “Oh, yeah, tomorrow after she cleans the house.” Well, I got up and cleaned that house, boy. (laughter) The guy comes to pick me up. She says, “You’re not going anywhere.” And, you know, I would not argue. And I felt bad for him ’cause he came from the South Side to pick me up. JJ: Now, wait a minute. Freddy mentioned the South Side. MA: No, this was before I met Fred, you know. I was -- JJ: Oh, no, I don’t mean that. But you guys mentioned the South Side, so where in the South Side? MA: I really don’t -- WA: Fifty-fifth. JJ: On 55th? That was a Puerto Rican -- WA: That area used to be on 55th, and there used to be a lot of Puerto Ricans. Matter of fact, you got -- JJ: Yeah, there was a lot of Puerto Ricans. (Spanish)? [00:47:54] WA: No, at the (Spanish). [00:47:57] MA: The [00:48:00] (Spanish), yeah. WA: And just down by Midway Airport. 46 �JJ: By Midway? WA: (Spanish) [00:48:07] ’cause we went to -- JJ: So Midway Airport -- WA: -- Capital Bank or something. JJ: -- had a lot of Puerto Ricans. WA: In the Midway Airport. JJ: And for what year? MA: The same, the ’60s. WA: Well, this is now, recently in the -- JJ: Oh, recently, yeah. WA: Yeah, in the ’80s till now. JJ: Now and the ’80s, but I mean at that time? MA: No. WA: At that time? JJ: The ’50s? WA: When I came from Puerto Rico, I landed at Midway. You had to walk from the airplane to the house where you pick up your luggage and that. JJ: So, yeah, Midway used to be the airport ’cause there was no -- WA: There was no O’Hare -- JJ: There was no O’Hare, yeah. WA: -- when we came here. 47 �JJ: But, I mean, I know that in the late ’40s during World War II, they had an assembly line in the factories for the planes at the Midway. And a lot of Puerto Ricans [00:49:00] were hired for that. WA: They called them (Spanish). [00:49:00] MA: Yeah, that was the -- WA: That’s what they were. JJ: (Spanish)? [00:49:04] WA: Yeah. JJ: So there was a group called that? WA: Yeah. MA: You know how we -- JJ: In the ’50s? WA: No, I don’t know if it -- MA: You know who used to be in that area? WA: -- was that. But I know it was next to -- MA: (Spanish) [00:49:13] Yvette. WA: Yeah, and she’s still on 55th -- MA: In front of our -- WA: -- with Louis Sias. P1: But what year? JJ: Oh, Louis Sias? MA: In the ’60s. WA: No, it’s more like the ’70s. 48 �MA: Well, after we got married, yeah. JJ: The ’70s. MA: In the early ’70s. JJ: Yeah, the ’70s because I remember they moved all over, but there was always something there. MA: Yeah, that’s -- WA: [Yeah, that’s before?] -- MA: -- how he met his wife. She was from the South Side, Puerto Rican. JJ: So you’re talking about -- in the ’70s, they were going over to the South Side, okay. WA: No, in the ’70s, she was not going to the South Side ’cause we got married ’66, so -- MA: Well, that’s when we -- JJ: She wasn’t allowed? MA: -- met (Spanish) [00:49:46] Yvette. Then, they got married -- WA: They got married. MA: -- on the South Side. P1: No, he was asking when you were -- WA: When you were going. P1: -- going to the South Side to the dance. MA: Oh, I see. JJ: So you went in ’65, yeah. WA: Before she was married, yeah. 49 �MA: Right, but I never got to go [00:50:00] because my mother -- JJ: You had to clean the house. You were scrubbing the floor. WA: Well, that’s the way it is. In the old days, they -- MA: Who knows? You know what? Maybe -- WA: I mean, I was 16, 17. I’m in high school, and I had to be home at eight o’clock at night. I’m not kidding you when I tell you that. JJ: Okay. So they -- WA: That’s the way it was. JJ: -- were strict with the men. WA: I was not a person that was out doing bad things ’cause I didn’t get -- MA: He didn’t have the time. WA: -- you know, to go out there. I was home already. JJ: I think he’s trying to tell me something. WA: Well, no, it’s true. A lot of the guys [in the?] -- MA: See, the thing is he was the oldest in his family. I was the oldest in my family, so I think the oldest kid always is -- they’re more strict with you. I don’t know, you know. JJ: Okay. So the oldest -- MA: In my head. JJ: -- person in each family had a responsibility? MA: More responsibility, I think. WA: Sure, I used to -- JJ: Is that what they were doing? 50 �WA: My brothers, Ruben -- MA: (Spanish). [00:50:51] WA: -- and Sixto, I had to wake up in the morning. “Come on, get your butts up for school.” MA: Yeah, that’s the way it was. WA: And, you know, I used to -- JJ: You had to do that? WA: Yeah, I would. MA: You didn’t have a [00:51:00] babysitter. You didn’t have anybody coming for -- WA: My mother and father would get up at 5:00 in the morning to go to work. MA: Yeah, that’s the -- JJ: So that was part of family? MA: Right, it was a family thing. JJ: The oldest person -- MA: My mother got up -- JJ: -- had to do it. WA: You have a responsibility for the -- MA: My mother left by 7:00. Like he says, I had to get them ready for school. What could I do? I was 12, 11, you know. We walked together. No one walked us to school, you know. WA: Today, everybody drives their kids to school. They live two blocks, they drive their kid to school. I walked to school. I had to take buses when I went to high school, and you know, 20 below zero didn’t mean nothing. 51 �MA: Yeah, you had to -- WA: You waited there for the bus, and that’s it. Just make sure you’re dressed warm, you know. That’s the way it was. But I bought my first car for 75 bucks, a ’53 Mercury. Two-door hardtop with the Hollywood bumpers and all that, my own money. MA: When we first got married, we got paid every two weeks, so -- JJ: Oh, really? MA: [00:52:00] -- we didn’t have enough money between us. And the bus was 25 cents with a transfer, and we didn’t have that. And I was too proud to ask, and he was too proud to ask, so what he would do -- he had a car. He’d take me to work, then come back or -- oh, it was a big mistake. WA: We had money to go to work, but then I would come back home and pick up the car, and then I would go pick her up at work. No lunch. We had breakfast at home, and that was it, so you know... MA: And people would say, “Oh, aren’t you gonna eat lunch?” (laughs) WA: You got to, you know, earn points, and that’s the way we did, but thank God. MA: But I think there were a lot of -- WA: Today, you know... MA: -- people like that, a lot of Latinos, you know, that did that. It wasn’t just us. I believe that very much. JJ: Did you see it, or no? MA: I believe I saw, you know, a lot of people sacrifice. JJ: Like your friends? 52 �MA: [00:53:00] Oh, yeah. JJ: Oh, they did? Okay. WA: It was -- MA: Mainly, I would say my family; my parents, my mom, and my aunts and all of them. They were very hard workers too. JJ: They just ate breakfast. They didn’t eat lunch? MA: Right, yeah. JJ: No lunch? MA: No lunch, as far as I know, you know, yeah. On the weekend, they used to cook a lot because, you know, that was the thing to do. We’d cook, and then -- JJ: So when they cooked, I know that -- was it rice and beans and that? MA: Oh, yeah. JJ: I mean, they didn’t -- WA: Puerto Rican favorites -- JJ: Puerto Rican families -- WA: -- in those days, sopa de pollos and everything. MA: We used to go to his mother’s house every Sunday to eat or my mom because like he said, one lived on the first floor and second. And we’d go with the kids, and one of them would cook one Sunday, and the other one the next Sunday. That’s what I’m saying. Today is, “Let me call and see if I can come over,” [00:54:00] you know? In those days, you just came over. It wasn’t like now. And then it was all Puerto Rican food all the time. (Spanish), [00:54:14] what time is it? 53 �WA: I know, yeah. JJ: Okay, yeah, so we’re gonna kinda wind down. Okay, so what’s the biggest thing you remember about growing up in Lincoln Park? MA: That mostly, it was all Puerto Rican, and we all got along. We never had any, you know, “Don’t go walking on that side of the street,” or, “Don’t look at him.” We all got along perfect. And, you know, of course, there’s always a little mishap with people, but it wasn’t to that degree that you had to call the police or -- you know, everybody tried to get along with each other. Today, it’s hard, you [00:55:00] know? Neighbors are not that friendly. Everybody keeps to themselves, you know? JJ: Did you like Lincoln Park, or...? MA: Oh, yeah, I was happy there. JJ: That’s a trick question. That’s kinda a leading question. MA: No, at that time, you know, I was a kid. Those are memories that -- we had a family. What was their last name? Puerto Rican. They lived on top of Clyde’s Donuts. They had 22 children, so we had all kinds of kids to play with. (laughs) You’ll never guess -- and that’s the guy, Bendito. He was a very -- they all sang. They played guitar, (Spanish), [00:55:44] Fred? They were unbelievable, these people. They were from my mother’s town, Cidra. I don’t know if you’re -- JJ: Oh, the 22 were Puerto Rican. And he played guitar on the [side?]? MA: They had their own band. JJ: Folk music, [00:56:00] or...? MA: No, they had everything. 54 �JJ: (Spanish) [00:56:01] and all of that? MA: And I remember the daughter -- WA: And one of them -- MA: -- sang beautiful, Anjelina. WA: -- was a pilot in Puerto Rico. MA: Yeah, some of them moved back to Puerto Rico. JJ: So you know who else lived on Webster? This guy named [Ito?]. Do you remember him? WA: Oh, Ito, yes. JJ: What do you remember about Ito? WA: Man, Ito, Maria. MA: (Spanish)? [00:56:23] WA: (Spanish). [00:56:23] You know, he passed away. JJ: Oh, no, I didn’t know that. WA: Yeah, Ito died. He was a tall guy. We called him Ito. [That was his name]. MA: I used to remember [Fransico?]. WA: No, but Ito -- JJ: Oh, Elvis Presley. Wasn’t that Elvis? WA: Well, Ito was the one that was in -- JJ: Wasn’t he Elvis Presley in the neighborhood? WA: I don’t know about Elvis Presley, but -- MA: My cousin used to be Elvis Presley. JJ: [Oh, he was?]? 55 �MA: He used to love Elvis Presley. WA: He did, yes. MA: Hector. WA: Hector, yeah. JJ: Hector? WA: Her cousin. MA: They had a band. I’m pretty sure you knew them. JJ: What’s the name of that band? MA: I forgot the name of the band. [00:57:00] It was him, my other cousins like I told you, David -- WA: They were first cousins. MA: There used to be there with you guys, your -- JJ: Oh, us, with the Young Lords? MA: Yeah, they had a band. JJ: David -- MA: Johnny [Bettencort?] -- JJ: Vicente, the dancer? MA: That’s another guy. JJ: That was another band. MA: Yeah, I remember that name. JJ: His brother had -- WA: Yeah, so -- MA: But Hector and them -- what were they called? Darn it, I forgot. 56 �JJ: And there was some that dressed up like some kind of vampires or something like that, (Spanish) [00:57:28] or something like that. MA: Right, yeah. But that’s one -- JJ: But Ito used to get on the stage and sing Elvis. You don’t remember him -- WA: Maybe I do. JJ: -- and the dances? Ito used to get on the stage -- MA: Oh, I believe you, but I don’t -- JJ: -- and sing Elvis. You don’t remember something? Okay. WA: Yeah, I don’t know. JJ: But you said something? WA: He did Elvis? MA: Yeah, my cousin was a little -- WA: Hector. MA: Hector. He played in a band, and they used to know the Young Lords. It was David Bettencort -- JJ: (Spanish). [00:57:56] MA: -- Louis Bettencort, Johnny [00:58:00] Bettencort. They were three brothers and him, Hector Sias. He was part of the group. JJ: Okay, so they had -- WA: He played the keyboard. JJ: Okay, so I know that they had bands. Some of them looked like The Beatles. MA: Yeah, I think it was in Westley. WA: Yeah, they used to dress like that. 57 �MA: I think that was them, yeah. JJ: Yeah, that was them. MA: They used to dress with the black arrow. They had, you know, the little... WA: Yeah, it was the -- MA: Yeah, that was them. JJ: Yeah, ’cause we had our own bands in the neighborhood, all different bands. MA: Yeah, Swiss Hall, they used -- JJ: At Swiss Hall, yeah. MA: -- to play a lot. JJ: That’s where I -- MA: I remember that, yeah. JJ: So that’s them. I think [it was that band?]. MA: But I don’t -- JJ: And there was another group called The Vampire. It was a different group. MA: Oh, that one, I don’t know. But I forgot their name. JJ: And then they had salsa bands that were starting at that time too with Caribe Ruiz. He was [up there?]. MA: Oh, yeah, he was a big part of the community. JJ: Did you go to the Puerto Rican Congress? WA: (Spanish). [00:58:52] MA: Oh, yeah, (Spanish). [00:58:53] JJ: Did you go to the (Spanish)? [00:58:55] MA: Oh, yeah. 58 �WA: It was down on North Avenue. JJ: What about The Post? Do you remember the [00:59:00] Legion Post for the soldiers? MA: No, that, I don’t -- WA: No, that one, (inaudible). JJ: They had [that on?] -- MA: But yes, (Spanish) Caribe [00:59:07] was very -- JJ: Yeah, he was one of the -- MA: -- influential with the Puerto Rican... JJ: Yeah, that’s right because you said you sold tickets for the parade. MA: Mm-hmm. No, but -- JJ: And that’s what they did at the (Spanish) [00:59:16] back then? MA: Right, yeah, once. WA: Yeah, at (Spanish). [00:59:19] JJ: Okay. Did you sell for that, or...? MA: No, I don’t -- JJ: Not for the -- okay. Now, there was a thing -- do you remember that St. Michael’s had a carnival? And I think there was a big fight. MA: Oh, yeah. WA: There was a big carnival. JJ: One year, there was a big fight. What do you remember of the carnival? MA: (laughs) I remember the fight. JJ: Oh, you remember the fight? 59 �MA: Don’t you remember the fight? WA: No. JJ: It was a -- MA: Wasn’t that the one with (Spanish) [00:59:45] Miguel, Louis Sias? WA: No. MA: Fred, I remember. WA: The one that you’re thinking about -- MA: Was it somewhere different? WA: On North Avenue. MA: Oh, on North Avenue. WA: Miguel’s uncle lives in that area. It’s the north area way [01:00:00] west. MA: Oh, okay, maybe I’m getting confused. WA: I can’t think of the street. Was it North Avenue? MA: I know there was a carnival, and there were some Italians or -- WA: Yeah, it was an Italian area. JJ: Oh, yeah, by the gang lords of (Spanish). [01:00:12] WA: I don’t know, but I know that’s by where the race track is. But I forgot the name of the race track already. JJ: Oh, that’s the race track? WA: On North Avenue and -- MA: Wood. WA: -- Cumberland. JJ: Cumberland? Okay. 60 �WA: That’s where it is, in Cumberland. MA: Yeah, I know where you mean. WA: That’s where -- JJ: The Hawthorne race track? WA: Not Hawthorne, though. It was in -- MA: It was in Oakwood or Maywood. WA: Maywood, yes. MA: Maywood. JJ: Maywood, yeah. That’s what I mean, that one, yeah. WA: Yeah, it was -- JJ: There was a fight in there? WA: -- in that area out there, yeah. There was a fight, yeah, and it was my (Spanish), [01:00:40] Miguel Claudio. I don’t know if you remember Miguel, Sean’s father. And -- MA: Somebody -- WA: -- he didn’t do anything. MA: Right, but they -- WA: And actually, it was a guy from the Paragons. MA: Yeah, I didn’t wanna say nothing, but... WA: And they blamed my (Spanish), [01:00:56] Miguel. And Frank Regio, you know -his [01:01:00] uncle had done that. JJ: Oh, Miguel, Crazy Johnny’s brother or somebody? WA: No. 61 �JJ: Okay, so that -- WA: He didn’t know Crazy Johnny. See, he only had two brothers, and it wasn’t him. JJ: Oh, okay, that wasn’t him. WA: Yeah, but it’s the -- JJ: No, Johnny was the Gonzales [family?]. MA: Oh, yeah, I remember him. JJ: You remember him? WA: Johnny, yeah. MA: Johnny Gonzale, yeah. WA: That’s Jose Gonzale’s brother. Johnny was in (Spanish). [01:01:21] JJ: Right, (Spanish), [01:01:23] yeah WA: That’s Jose’s brother. JJ: Mm-hmm. Anything else you wanna add? MA: No, that’s all. WA: [We gotta get outta here?]. JJ: I want to thank you very much. MA: You’re welcome. JJ: Thanks so much. MA: You gave me a lot of -- to look back. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, you can -- WA: Yeah, to remember. JJ: Okay, stop -- 62 �END OF VIDEO FILE 63 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7f46c0b34154719290123deead72508.mp4 eee7c764505b966ef67a9849ba842cad Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Maria Aviles vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Maria Aviles, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 09/27/2018 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Aviles_Maria Title A name given to the resource Maria Aviles video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Aviles, Maria Description An account of the resource Oral history of Maria Aviles, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 09/27/2018 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-09-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b7d0c6675b77625985ba6f041d71e276.pdf 934524a445d56c645d7c04c912156b92 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee(s): Sijisfredo Avilés Interviewer(s): José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/1/2012 Biography and Description English Sijisfredo Avilés is the first Puerto Rican in Chicago to publicly oppose the Vietnam War draft during the middle 1960s. He quietly served three years in jail for refusing induction in 1968 and later and became a member of the Communist Party USA. Born in Puerto Rico, Mr. Avilés’s family moved to Chicago in the early 1950s, settling around Chicago Avenue and Noble Avenue, just west of Ogden Avenue and downtown. Mr. Avilés has been a lifelong advocate for the poor, Latino self-determination, and human rights. He has been a member of the Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), the Puerto Rican Socialist Party of Chicago (PSP), and the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center in Chicago. All of these groups worked closely with the Young Lords. Spanish Sijisfredo Avilés es el primer Puertorriqueño en Chicago que públicamente opongo el recluto para la guerra de Vietnam en los 1960s. Silenciamiento sirvió 3 años en la cárcel por rechazar inducción en 1968 y mas tarde se hizo mimbré del parte comunista en USA. Nacido en Puerto rico, La familia de Avilés so movió a Chicago en los 1950s, estabilizándose en Chicago Avenue y Noble Avenue, que esta oeste de Ogden Avenue y el centro. Señor Avilés a soportado los pobres, los Latino auto determinados y los derechos humanos. Avilés ha sido un miembro de Latín American Defense Organization (LADO), el �Puerto Rican Socialist Party of Chicago (PSP), y el Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center en Chicago. Todos estos grupos han trabajado juntos con los Young Lords. �Transcripts JOSE JIMINEZ: Anytime you want. It’s rolling, so anytime you want. SIJISFREDO AVILES: Let me take some deep breaths. JJ: You can take some deep breaths. No problem. SA: Okay, I’m ready. JJ: So if you can tell me what your name is, what you’re doing now, and then we will start backwards and (inaudible). SA: Okay. This will be in English, right? JJ: Yeah, it’s better English, because (inaudible). SA: Okay. Sijisfredo Avilés. JJ: Could you (inaudible) [sorry?]. SA: Okay. I was born in Moca, Puerto Rico in 1941. I’m sorry, 1942. February 13, 1942. And I came to Chicago in 1951. One of the things about this trip was that it was my mother and my brother’s sister, my aunt, my grandparents, we all came together [00:01:00] to Chicago because at that time, my father asked my mother to come in, and then my father was very close to my smallest brother. So he says, “If he goes, I’m going with you.” And then he had his son, my grandfather’s son, or my uncle who also live in Chicago. So we came here, and I remember that the first place we lived in was a hotel on Halsted and Grand owned by a couple of Japanese people. And basically, there was a little Puerto Rican community at that time over there because I think the people moved there because there was a store called [Sam Wise?] Grocery Store. This is a Jewish 1 �per son. And all Puerto Ricans went to the store to buy arroz con gandule, all the Puerto Rican products, the fruits that we eat. So that was our focus. And [00:02:00] I lived there a number of years until we moved to Racine and Chicago Avenue. And the building doesn’t exist because it was torn to build the Kennedy -- no, the Kennedy Expressway. Oh, whatever it is. It’s one of those expressway that runs the 94. And I went to grammar school. JJ: So this was before the Kennedy was there, the Dan Ryan Kennedy? SA: Yeah. JJ: Now was the Cabrini-Green Housing Project, were they up when you came in? SA: I was a little kid, so I don’t know. I was ten years old. JJ: But you know that there was a Puerto Rican community? SA: There was a Puerto Rican community because I saw it every time we went to the store, and I thought that I knew my way. And then I went to the store and my uncle said, “Go to the store.” I got to the store, when I went home, I couldn’t remember which way to turn, so I ended up on Halsted here, the other [00:03:00] South Side (inaudible) to return. And then I said, “Oh, there’s the house.” And I made it back. But it was a small Puerto Rican community. The other Puerto Rican communities were on Madison and Ashland, around there. I knew about that. And then the one on Clark Street. But I had no contact with those community because like I said, I was a little kid wondering, what is going to be my life in this new country, where people spoke English and all that kind of stuff. JJ: Now, where is Moca in terms of Puerto Rico? Is that (inaudible)? 2 �SA: Moca is a little town on the west part of the island near Aguadilla, which used to be a big Air Force base. I think Air Force or Navy base for United States, not Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is not a free country, but a colony of [00:04:00] United States, invaded by the US in 1898, where the main city, San Juan, was bombarded. People don’t know that. JJ: What do you mean it was bombarded? SA: They dropped bombs on San Juan. JJ: In 1898? SA: 1898. Yeah. JJ: So where did you go to school? SA: I went to a grammar school, Carpenter School on Racine and Erie. And there, I went to-- they closed that school because they had closed another school. JJ: How was that school? What do you remember? SA: Well, let me explain. First of all, there was a school near Sam Wise store, near there, and it was mostly a Black school. So they, the city, decided to tear that school up and move everybody from that school to Carpenter School. [00:05:00] And Carpenter School was mostly at that moment, as I can recollect, pretty much mixed. But primarily, many Italian immigrants and Polish immigrants went to the school, and we, Puerto Rican were just a tiny minority at that time. Then when that school closed, a number of years later, because it was rebuilt, we were sent to Motley School on Chicago Avenue and Throop. I went to Wells High School. I graduated from there. I was number three. In terms of class standing, I was number three. 3 �JJ: What year was this? You were about? SA: I think it was 1956 or something. I’m not sure. And then from there, I went to a community college on South Side [00:06:00] because my father worked most of his life at the cement company, US Steel, but their cement section in Buffington, Indiana. So he traveled all week, every day from Chicago, taking Route 41, all the way to Indiana. And he worked three shifts. One week, he worked from 8:00 to 12:00, 8:00 to 4:00, then four o’clock to 12:00, and then 12:00 to 7:00 or something like that. I never knew until big what kind of sacrifice he did to help us maintain a steady life, which is very unlike other people that I met who used to work in smaller factories in Chicago. And so I lived a pretty stable life. I didn’t know [00:07:00] extreme poverty. JJ: Now how many siblings? SA: We are five brothers and sister, actually, one sister and four brothers. I’m the oldest one. And when I came here, I was nine years old or eight years old. JJ: They all grew up here too? SA: All of us grew up here. But to us, I don’t know how or why, our culture was very important. So we all speak Spanish. My brothers, following my father’s footsteps, became musicians. My father was a guitar-- great guitar player. And he even built his own guitars in Chicago. There was a program where they showed him building on guitar on Channel 26 when it was a small station. And my brothers play in little [00:08:00] bands, salsa bands. One was La Mafia Band. JJ: What year was this? Do you remember (inaudible)? SA: I think it was like late ’50s. 4 �JJ: Late ’50s? SA: Maybe It was early ’60s. JJ: Early ’60s? SA: Yeah. JJ: So there was a group called La Mafia? SA: La Mafia, yes. They played salsa music. And my smaller brother liked to sing rock and roll song, but you know. JJ: Because actually, there’s several bands during that time they came around. (inaudible) SA: Well, that was a very, very young band. I know about the other salsa bands that were sponsored by (Spanish) [00:08:41]? JJ: (Spanish) [00:08:41]. SA: (Spanish) [00:08:41]. JJ: What about your mom? What did she do? SA: Oh, my mother worked here and there, but most of the time, she was a full-time mother. JJ: Full-time mother? SA: A strong woman. If she saw [00:09:01] someone-- something was wrong, she will fight a man, really. That was my mother. A strong woman who had a sense of what’s right and wrong. And I think I learned this from her because I say, “Why did you become involved parties?” I think it was my mother influence on standing up for what is right no matter what. Although she was not politically involved, but she had that sense. 5 �JJ: What do you mean? (inaudible). SA: Well, she was never involved in any political group. That’s what I mean. She might have voted in regular elections, and that’s it. JJ: But she would just talk to you about that? SA: Not per se. It was her actions. They say actions speak louder than words, but the fact that she stood for what is right had a great influence on [00:10:00] me and I think on my other brothers and sister. We were not religious except one person. My sister was the religious one in the family, went to church every Sunday, who joined the (Spanish) [00:10:18] St. Mary’s Daughters. So she was, you know. JJ: Now, do you know what church she joined? SA: Oh my God. Santa Maria Addolorata. JJ: Addolorata, and where would that -- ? SA: That would be on Ohio Street and near Racine. JJ: Near Racine? SA: Yeah. JJ: By Ogden there and all that intersection? SA: Correct. JJ: There was a (Spanish) [00:10:45] used to be over there. SA: I don’t know about (Spanish) [00:10:49]. JJ: They were kind of connected with the church there. So those are -- ? SA: Not the Catholic Church because we were Catholic, and Casa (Spanish) [00:10:56]. 6 �JJ: (Spanish) [00:10:57] is more Protestant. SA: It’s a Protestant church. [00:11:00] JJ: But at that time, they were a service center or something. They were connected- SA: Oh, maybe there was that thing. JJ: But I don’t know. (inaudible). So Santa? SA: Santa Maria Addolorata. JJ: Addolorata. (Spanish) [00:11:13]? SA: Yeah, (Spanish) [00:11:17] Maria. JJ: Los Caballeros de San Juan? SA: Yes, there was a Los Caballeros de San Juan. In fact, they were pretty active. For some time, they were very active. And a lot of things that happened in Chicago, among the Puerto Rican community’s sense of identity, as a community, came from the fact that there was such a group as the Los Caballeros de San Juan, where people got together, did social things. JJ: What kind of things did they do? SA: We celebrate usually religious holidays together, pray in Spanish, sponsor (Spanish) [00:11:54] de Maria. Sometimes they sponsor trips to different parts of the city. [00:12:00] And at that time, Los Caballeros de San Juan were very much trying, in trying to get the Puerto Ricans involved in political-like action. And that was under Cardinal Stritch. And when he saw this, he didn’t like it. So what he did, disbanded the Los Caballeros de San Juan. JJ: He disbanded them? 7 �SA: Oh, yeah. That’s what I think he did. Well, anyway, the Los Caballeros de San Juan were no longer meeting in churches. They were sort of like floated in and out. But the main leadership, the nuns and the priests were involved in this. He sent them to Panama because the archdiocese here has something in Panama. And that was the way he broke that potential organization. JJ: This was years later? SA: No, during that, about 1956. JJ: 1956? [00:13:00] SA: Around there. Yeah. JJ: So they were like the organization (inaudible)? SA: Yeah. In fact, they did something like the -- we formed a credit union. Caballeros de San Juan Credit Union. JJ: You said “we.” Were you part of this (inaudible)? SA: Well, I mean, as a community. JJ: As a community? SA: Yeah. That way, I was -- JJ: So the community felt connected to the Los Caballeros de San Juan? SA: That’s right. And it lasted to about -- JJ: It’s still there. It’s still here. SA: Well, but you see, it was taken over by Credit Union One because there were problems administering in the Credit Union. We had to have so much money in order to continue being a credit. So it was either that or close so Caballeros 8 �merged with Credit Union one, which is a nationwide credit union. And I’m still a member of that. JJ: So the Los Caballeros de San Juan [00:14:00] organized the (inaudible) de Maria? SA: Yeah. JJ: And so was it the same typical -- was it a? SA: It was a strict religious organization, but with the idea -- JJ: I mean would women have some form of liberation like you were talking about? SA: Well, I don’t think women, at that time, it was liberation to talk about women. Women did what they were expected, to be wives and clean the husband’s dirt in the house, and raise the children, and work outside of the house in order to make ends meet. But there was no question, no liberation theology of feminism at that time. No. Women did what was expected of them. JJ: But they participated in the church? SA: They participate in the church, very actively. Took leadership position in some activities that were done in the church. That’s because Puerto Rican men don’t go to church basically. [00:15:00] It’s mostly women who drag in their children. But they did have an influence. They organized baseball teams. So each church had its own baseball team in the Caballeros de San Juan, and they play against each other. JJ: Were a lot of people involved? 9 �SA: Yeah. I think there was the social active life of Puerto Ricans. But to be involved in Los Caballeros de San Juan or in the activities of Caballeros, like the baseball teams and stuff like that, and later become involved with the credit union. JJ: What do you remember, since this is about you, what do you remember when you were young growing up in that area? SA: Oh, I tell you my thing. I remember the racism that I encountered. We used to live on, like [00:16:00] I said before, on Racine and Chicago Avenue. And we live on a four-floor apartment building. And then behind us was the police station. And I didn’t know what it was. We used to call a spic. Eh, spic. JJ: Did the police say this? SA: The police were the ones who instigated this kind of thing. I don’t think we knew what a spic was, but they found out that that’s what speak was a term referred to Italians before. But since we speak English, like that, so they started calling us spics. And we, watching from our four-floor apartment porch, we saw what was going on in the cells. And I remember beatings that went on in the cells by the police. But one thing that really [00:17:00] got me was that one time, we were in the home and lightning hit the building. And the lightning went from the chimneys of the fourth floor and ended up on the first-floor apartment. But it was such a big mess. Everybody got scared. Everybody grabbed their children running out of the building, and the policemen were just standing there outside of the building, laughing at us. “Look at those Puerto Ricans.” Oh, I hated them. I hated them for that. Making fun of us and laughing. And we lived there until we moved to another place. And I think we moved out because of the possibility that the 10 �building will be torn down. And so the police station would be torn down for the expressway. JJ: Because I don’t recall that part, [00:18:00] so the expressway didn’t exist there. Was there a major road or something in there? SA: No, it was just like, “Tear all these buildings and make this highway.” If you take that highway going to the airport, you will see that it was residential area that was strictly torn down to build the highway. So a lot of people were moved out other homes for that purpose. The school, I don’t think there was much racism at all against Puerto Ricans, because we were a small minority or Mexicans. It was small, like I said it. JJ: And this was Wells? SA: No, this is Carpenter School. JJ: Carpenter School. SA: When we went to Wells High School, later when I graduated -- JJ: But Carpenter Elementary? SA: Yeah. JJ: And so you said there was only a small percentage of -- ? SA: Oh, very small. I remember there were four Latinos, basically Puerto Ricans. JJ: And what were the other populations? SA: Italians, Polish. JJ: Italian, Polish? SA: As I recollect, they were being Irish, but to us, anybody who was blonde, we used to call them Polish. 11 �JJ: So did you see the neighborhood change, or did you move before that? SA: I saw change. I saw a lot of Puerto Ricans moving into the area around this Carpenter School. JJ: Around what time was that about? What year is it? SA: 1958. 1959. JJ: 1958, 1959? SA: Yeah. JJ: So more Puerto Ricans were moving into the area. Were they coming from Puerto Rico or from other areas? SA: I think some of them were moving from Madison to [00:20:00] that area. JJ: From Madison to that area? SA: And perhaps some people were moving already from Clark too, to the area. JJ: So from Clark and Madison? SA: Yeah. I know one thing that there was a huge increase of Puerto Ricans that migrated to what’s called West Town Division Street. I mean, a huge number of Puerto Ricans. JJ: So before that, there weren’t any Puerto Ricans (inaudible)? SA: No, that I recall. JJ: So they (inaudible)? SA: Yeah, I think once the other areas were changed. JJ: So Clark and from Madison? SA: Yeah. There were still many Puerto Ricans coming from Puerto Rico in the ’50s. Some of them came because they were in the US Army during the Korean War. 12 �So when they came out, there’s no jobs in Puerto Rico, so they found ways of surviving in Chicago in the area. JJ: Now, some people came and [00:21:00] went to the country also. But your family came right to the Chicago area? SA: Let me tell you, my father came to the United States. The first place he lived was in Utah because there were the gold mines. So he went to work in the gold mine. JJ: What year was that? SA: 1950, probably. Or 1949. JJ: 1949? (inaudible). SA: So he went to Utah. And then from there -- JJ: And he stayed there a few years working in the gold mines? SA: Yes. Perhaps, he came to work in the tomato fields in the northeastern part of United States, New England area. Then he found work at Utah. And then from Utah, he moved to Chicago to work in the steel mills. JJ: Were there other family here already? SA: Well, there was my uncle and a few [00:22:00] young people at that time who all came basically at the same time to live in Chicago. And some of them ended up in (inaudible) because there was work at the steel mills. Some of them stayed with -- many of them moved back to Chicago, my father being one. My uncle also moved here. Two uncles because I have an uncle from my father’s side that my father sent to him -- he came here when he was eighteen or something like that. Was also a musician. I’m glad my parents were musician because that got us to love our music and our culture. They used to meet in my house and plays 13 �music and dance. So that was very important to us, to our family, conserving our Spanish tradition, Puerto Rican tradition. JJ: So what type of music? SA: [00:23:00] Oh, popular, mostly popular boleros, guarachas. Some country music, but during Christmas time, which is still the tradition to sing those kind of songs during Christmas time. So that was the (inaudible). JJ: So did he sing too? Was he a singer or just play together? SA: Oh, me? JJ: Your father. SA: My father played guitar, and so his brother played first guitar, and they used to sit down and sing. And then my uncle from my mother’s side, he thought he was a great singer, so they used to sing together with my other, his brother, singing popular songs of that era. Augustin Lara was Mexican composer. Rafael Hernández was very popular and favorite. Pedro Flores, El Quarteto Americano, [00:24:00] other the people who played music. So he played like (inaudible) music, some country-western, some country, Puerto Rican music. It was mostly the popular type music that you hear. JJ: So now, to what grade did you go to Carpenter? From what grade to what? SA: I graduated from eighth grade from Carpenter School. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Actually, I graduated from Motley because the last year, they closed Carpenter School to build a new building, to make a new building. (inaudible). So I graduated from Motley, who later became an all-(inaudible) girls school. And they said, “Oh, you went to Motley.” I used to kid and I went to an all-girls’ 14 �school. Then from there, I went to Wells High School. And I [00:25:00] spent four years at the Wells High School. At that time -JJ: Before that, now, you’re growing up in an era where the youth started getting into gangs, gang problems and that. Did you get in any (inaudible)? SA: At that time, there weren’t gangs. JJ: There weren’t any gangs? SA: Gangs came later, after I graduated from eighth grade. JJ: So we’re talking about the ’50s? SA: The late ’50s, yeah. JJ: The late ’50s, there were no Puerto Rican gangs? SA: No Puerto Rican gangs or something. Oh, there was a lot of animosity, though, let me tell you, between the Puerto Rican community and the Italian community on Halsted Street. Now, I know that because there was a building that was set on fire in that area. JJ: By who? SA: People think -- Puerto Rican think it was Italian. Some people think it just was an accident. We never know. But I know that it came out in the newspapers, and they [00:26:00] took this photograph of this young Puerto Rican who went up to save his little radio. And in the process, he fell and got killed. So there was a lot of -- JJ: And they think that the Italians might’ve started the (inaudible)? SA: Yeah, I mean, it’s not. Nobody ever really think. It was just the idea that, perhaps, they did. 15 �JJ: So there was some animosity, though? SA: There was some really animosity. Basically, it was the teenagers because we were competing for the girls. The Puerto Rican guys went after the Italian girls. And you see the result of this. You see in Chicago, lots of marriages between Puerto Ricans and Italian. Many, many. JJ: So this was before there were any Puerto Rican gangs there? SA: No. I think the gangs came -- JJ: Were there Italian gangs? SA: If there were Italian gangs, we didn’t know. I didn’t know. It wasn’t organized. JJ: You [00:27:00] didn’t know anything about gangs? SA: No. JJ: Did you ever join any gangs then, or your brothers or sisters or anybody? SA: I never had the misfortune of joining a gang. No. I was a good kid. JJ: No, that’s good. I’m not saying it’s bad. SA: My mother would have killed us. JJ: Just trying to figure out when the gangs came in. (inaudible). SA: Oh, the gangs came in later. We were not involved. I think some of my brothers and sisters were attacked by gangs. A little gang called Gaylords, which was basically Italian, who had accepted also a number of Mexican kids in their gang. And they went against Puerto Ricans because they said that Puerto Ricans and Blacks were always together. And the Mexicans thought they were white at that time, which is not true. But anyway, this was [00:28:00] the perception. So the 16 �gangs came later. I think it was probably, they started the first year of high school when I was there. But there wasn’t any gang activity. JJ: In the area around Chicago Avenue and in Ashland, I’m saying they began to go -- ? SA: No. Or at Wells High School, either. JJ: But I’m saying they began to go after (inaudible). SA: In fact, I remember my gym teacher -- JJ: Oh, no (inaudible). (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) SA: My gym teacher. JJ: Again, it’s at Wells? SA: He said that Wells High School was very calm because there were no fights between Puerto Ricans and other groups. He said the biggest fights occurred before we Puerto Ricans came to this area, when Italians and Polish had huge riots at Wells High School. He said, I don’t know what people complaining. This campus is calm now. JJ: So they’re saying it was calm because [00:29:00] there were Puerto Ricans there? SA: Well, it was calm because there was no gang activity. JJ: No gang. No gang activity. SA: Nobody was against any other group. Overtly, physically. There might be some comments or something, but no, nothing like that. 17 �JJ: So how was your high school years at Wells? Did you complete all four years there? SA: Like I said, I completed my four years. I was number three, student number three in the standings of the whole school. JJ: So was it just normal or not normal? SA: Well, I was a homebody. I went from school to my house and read and listened to the novellas with my grandfather. Regular soap operas. My father was one of those people who loved soap operas. I think I took that. I think I have it from him. JJ: Actually, they like that in Puerto Rico. Every time I go, there was a lot of people into [00:30:00] soap operas. SA: Oh, yes. So from Chicago. JJ: From Chicago? SA: In Chicago. JJ: In Chicago. (inaudible) Oh, yeah. SA: Gang fights were not that big at all. There was the beginning, like Young Lords versus the Latin Kings and stuff like this. But this was the early years. I don’t think they were really -- JJ: No, but you were studious, right? You were studying at school. Were your brothers and sisters the same way? SA: The only brother that seemed to have some kind of a connection with friends that were not approved by my mother was my two smaller brothers because we were 18 �older than them, and we were almost grownups when we went to high school, and they were small. JJ: [00:31:00] Who were your friends? Were they Puerto Ricans or Americans? SA: Basically, our parents say, “You just visit your cousins, play around with your cousins. No friends in the house.” We live a very close, secure life, protective life, protected life. But I think unfortunately, one of my brothers did get involved with a little bit of a gang issue, but Mexican. He got involved with some use of drugs. JJ: Use of drugs. So it sounds like your mother was running the show or your father? SA: Oh both. It was a team. JJ: What do you mean by that? SA: Oh, they both expect us to do certain things. For example, my mother worked. [00:32:00] I was in charge because I was the oldest one. I had to make sure that dinner was started. I did the beans; my sister did the rice, all that kind of stuff. The meat, my mother did. But every one of us had something to do before my mother got there. We were expected to do homework. That kind of stuff. And so were my cousins. Since I was the oldest of the cousins, I was in charge of them, disciplining them. They all think I’m the oldest brother or something. So we were a very close family, mega family. My aunts, my cousins, we all live in this building. We had the whole fourth floor. JJ: And this was on Chicago Avenue? 19 �SA: Yeah. The whole fourth floor was our family: my aunts, my grandparents, my mother and father. There was no stranger [00:33:00] in that floor except us. The little village of Moca on the fourth floor. Then later on, more Puerto Ricans moving to this building. It was owned by the Wise brothers. The ones who owned that store that I told you. JJ: They owned the building and the store? So was the store there? SA: No, the store was on Milwaukee Avenue. JJ: Oh, so they owned the store and the building? SA: And the building that was just about a couple of blocks away from them. JJ: So they were all family. You don’t remember any other families that were there at that time? SA: Oh, yes, some people who live on the third floor, second floor. Remember I told you about the first floor when the lightning hit? We were friends to those people. And we felt so bad when this poor lady was cooking something. The food was all black with [00:34:00] soot that came down the chimney. There was no damage. But the thing I remember most about that was the fact, we were taught to believe that police were supposed to be respectful. And here they are laughing at us under this crisis saying, “Look at those Puerto Ricans. Ha ha ha ha ha.” I hated that time. The fact they called us spics and then the fact that they laughed. JJ: Were there any incidents, any other incidents that you recall in that neighborhood? Because that was the Gaylord neighborhood then. SA: No, I don’t think the Gaylords were very organized in that immediate community. JJ: Later on, that was their neighborhood gang. 20 �SA: Yeah, I know. JJ: So you’re graduating from Wells? SA: Correct. JJ: And then was you working anywhere at all? SA: Oh, my mother and father said, “You don’t work until you finish school.” JJ: [00:35:00] Well, your father had good income from the steel mill? SA: That’s right. So we never worked. JJ: Now, had your father gone to school? SA: My father went as far as high school, but my mother went in sixth grade. And that was because she was, like I said, she stood up for what she thought was right, and one teacher in Puerto Rico hit her, and she said, she told the teacher, “Wait until you have your own children, then you won’t want to spank me.” And she called her all the kinds of names. So they called my grandfather, and they say, “We don’t want your daughter in school.” There was no student rights, so she was dismissed from returning to school. So she never finished. But she used to read a lot, though. JJ: So now you’re graduating. You’re in Wells; you’re graduating. Where did you go after that? SA: Well, the last year, [00:36:00] my father and mother had moved to the South Side on 61st Street and Stony Island. There was a pretty good size Puerto Rican community there. So we moved to a building there. JJ: 61st Street and Stony Island? 21 �SA: Yeah, it was 63rd and -- Do you don’t remember that big church on the South Side that became the headquarters of the Blackstone Rangers or something? JJ: Right. I remember that. SA: Well, that’s what it -- JJ: That’s where it’s around Blackstone. That street. SA: But there were no Blackstones, because when we moved there, there were no gangs. JJ: No, the street. The street was called Blackstone. SA: No. JJ: Not that (inaudible)? SA: It was 63rd. And I think Woodland. I don’t know the name of it. I don’t recollect. JJ: Actually, the Caballeros de San Juan had their council (inaudible) in that area. SA: That’s right. JJ: Was that the same place. Was that the same church? SA: I think. What was the name of that? [00:37:00] Saint (inaudible) Church? I don’t know what the name was. JJ: I think that’s what it was. Caballeros de San Juan had a strong (inaudible). SA: Well, the Caballeros de San Juan were in many communities. So it was a disaster to the American community when Cardinal Stritch sent the leadership to Panama. JJ: And that was because they were getting out of hand or what were they doing? 22 �SA: Helping the Puerto Rican community, trying to awaken them to the fact of what the political system is and what are the [rights?]. He thought that was, you didn’t do that. You don’t question the city. JJ: They were questioning the city? SA: That’s right. And the laws. JJ: See, I thought that they were more conservative. SA: No, they were not conservative. I’m telling you, because of this radical Catholic group in [00:38:00] the Chicago area that stood for other things besides bridging. They actually went on and tried to help Puerto Ricans manage some of their political -- well, economic problems and difficulties when it came to housing or whatever. When there was a police problem, they came out and tried to help. Because there was already police insensitivities to Puerto Rican community. I don’t think it was police brutality yet. That came later. So we -- JJ: Insensitivity? SA: Insensitivity. Yeah. I mean, the same kind of insensitivity of the police laughing at us, but they never attack us or -- JJ: Verbal. A lot of verbal abuse? SA: That’s right. So then I moved to the South Side the last year. I decided -- JJ: What year was this that you moved, about? I’m just trying to get a -- SA: I think it was [00:39:00] like early ’60s. JJ: Early ’60s? SA: Yeah. JJ: So early ’60s, you were on 63rd Street? 23 �SA: Yeah. For my fourth year of high school. And I used to stay at my mother’s house. JJ: So you went to high school there? What school did you go there? SA: No, I went to Wells High School. But I continue going to Wells High while I live on the South Side on the weekends, because I stay over here with my grandmother and my aunt in front of St. Boniface Church. JJ: Okay. SA: So I traveled back and forth. JJ: Anything that you remember while you were in high school, and what do you remember? SA: Well, I remember fighting with an Italian kid and that really frightened me, because suddenly I realized that I was not fighting to fight and protect. I was fighting to kill somebody. [00:40:00] I remember hitting the kid in the stomach because I knew that was the big effect. Oh my God, I said, “This is it.” And the idea that I could kill somebody took over my life, really. JJ: Why were you so angry? What did he do to make you so angry? SA: We were playing soccer or something. Soccer. When you throw the ball and try to hit each other at the gym. JJ: Dodge ball. SA: Dodge ball. For some reason, he came up to me. That’s how I perceive it. He started fighting. I fought with him, and I remember he was trying to fight a little while. He wasn’t the expert fighter, nor was I, but I was fighting. I was thinking, I’m going hit him in the stomach. [laughs] And I say, “Oh my God, I’m capable of 24 �doing this kind of reasoning.” So I tried to stay away from difficult promise of fighting because suddenly, [00:41:00] so then I realized that I could be -- I was not fighting just to defend myself or to get rid of (inaudible) me. Well, anyway, it was young guys. JJ: You got really angry. You got really angry? SA: I wasn’t angry. That’s the whole thing. I was calculating. JJ: Calculating. SA: And that really frightened me. JJ: But you actually wanted to hurt him? (inaudible)? SA: Yes. I wanted to hit him in the stomach to kill him, because I told that if you hit him in the stomach -- JJ: You were how old? You were already a killer at what age? SA: Fifteen, sixteen? JJ: I’m just kidding. Just kidding. SA: But after that, I never had any encounter, any other fight. JJ: So basically, you didn’t get into a lot of fist fights? SA: No. I eventually kept to myself. I had some Puerto Rican friends, one or two of the other [00:42:00] white kids. JJ: And you said basically, because you were more studious and your family wanted to make sure that you went to school and right back home? SA: Yeah. JJ: Is that what kept you away from the gang? SA: That’s right. And they expected that from my brothers and sisters also. 25 �JJ: Except the younger ones started getting into trouble? SA: Yeah. I think at that time, the older ones were in high school. JJ: And you said also that had to do with that there weren’t that many Puerto Rican gangs that (inaudible). SA: No, there were really -- like I said -- JJ: When you were growing up. So when your younger brothers were growing up, there were gangs? SA: They were gangs. JJ: So that environment, violent? SA: It was beginning to change. JJ: It was beginning to change. Why do you think that was changing at that time? SA: I never really thought about why. I think it was because the number of Puerto Ricans was higher, and that also causes a lot of difficulty, when suddenly you’re not the majority in that area, and [00:43:00] you think that that area is mine by right. So that was it. JJ: So the neighborhood was changing. SA: The neighborhood began to change. JJ: And Puerto Ricans were just saying, “This is my neighborhood now.” And the other -- and I’m putting words (inaudible). SA: No, no, no. I don’t think there was overt saying, “This is my neighborhood.” We don’t want to. It’s just that -- JJ: There was (inaudible)? 26 �SA: It seemed like a natural growth without anybody planning this kind of activity later on. JJ: So there was no urban renewal? It was just natural? Natural change. But that natural change contributed to the gangs? SA: Yeah. JJ: Is that correct, or am I putting words in your mouth? SA: I think it has something to do with it, but I don’t think -- the gang situation at that time wasn’t that strong or open. JJ: So you were not working. [00:44:00] Now, you’re out of high school. And you’re going to college? SA: Yes. I found a job at the post office. JJ: You worked at the post office? What (inaudible)? SA: I was what they call a substitute clerk. JJ: That’s a pretty good job. Did you have any connections to get the job? SA: No. I just took a test and passed it, and you know. (inaudible) They gave me the job. It was like a part-time position to work at night, finishing all the sorting of mail or filling up trucks, whatever. We did everything. That’s what they call it substitute. Whatever they need, we went over there. And we got hours for eleven o’clock, 11:15 to 7:45 in the morning or something like that. Sometimes they only kept us four hours. But if there was too much work, then they asked us to stay until the following morning. JJ: You were still living in that same area, same neighborhood? 27 �SA: [00:45:00] I was living -- at that time, we had moved back to Chicago, North Side of Chicago. JJ: So you went from the South Side back to the -- ? SA: Yeah, we did because -- JJ: Back to Chicago Avenue? SA: Yeah, we did. But let me tell you one of the things that impressed me. When I was going to live on the weekdays in my neighborhood, I did encounter this whole question of racism against the Black community, because I remember a group of white people knocking at the door, our door and say, “Oh, we come here to let you know that the Blacks are moving in.” JJ: This was where? On the South Side or the North Side? SA: The South Side. Jefferson Park. The street was Jefferson. “The Blacks were moving in, and we’re creating a [00:46:00] welcoming reception committee.” That was one way of scaring people that the Blacks were coming in. And I said, “Oh no, we just fine.” We were not thinking of moving. But I remember coming one weekend, because this is the time when leases are due, right. I came in, and suddenly, the whole neighborhood had changed from white to Black. And what happened was the rents went up real high. The services that the buildings were receiving, like yard clean up, the cleaning of the hallways, all that stopped. But the prices went higher for the Blacks. So they were thinking already of urban renewal at least this company, McKey-Poague was the company. I remember that name. McKey-Poague. [00:47:00] JJ: McKey-Poague? 28 �SA: McKey-Poague, P-O-A-G-U-E. It was a big real estate company. They had control of these buildings. I don’t know if they own or whatever, but they were the ones who came out and -- JJ: Isn’t the University of Chicago there or something like that? SA: A little bit farther. JJ: What is it? SA: South. University of Chicago is 59th or something. This is 69th and Jeffrey. They came in when I went there on the weekend because Wells High School, the weekend to spend with my parents. I was shocked. Everybody in the community, except for my family and other two Latino families that stayed there, were all Black. It was overnight, I’m telling you. What is going on here? I didn’t realize what was going on. Then the rents went up. JJ: [00:48:00] And where were the Blacks coming from? Maybe they were being pushed into that area? SA: I think they were coming from University of Chicago. JJ: Oh, so (inaudible). SA: Because at that time, university was expanding. JJ: Expanding. And so the Black community from there was pushed into that area? SA: Right. They were welcomed by McKey-Poague, supposedly. They moved there. JJ: So you said there was some prejudice? What do you mean by that? SA: Well, I thought it was awkward that this neighborhood moved. Since I was in college, I knew something about racial stuff. And I said, “Oh my God.” So the neighborhood changed overnight. They would stay there-- a few months later, 29 �we moved back because the rent was just too high. So we decided to move back to the area on Chicago Avenue and Noble Street, in front of [00:49:00] the swimming pool there, and that’s where we lived until we grew up. JJ: So mostly, the Blacks who lived there was the area where you lived? SA: Chicago Avenue and Noble Street. Eckhart Park. JJ: Eckhart Park. SA: Eckhart Park was right in front of the house, from my house. So we lived there. We got married. My sisters and brothers got married there, and so on. JJ: So that was right in the middle between Clark and Division Street, that area, the Chicago Avenue and Division Street area and stuff? SA: So that area was pretty -- the Puerto Rican community, the Latino community was pretty big by then because we got rentals on Racine, on (inaudible) Street, [00:50:00] and all the streets in between. Throop, Elizabeth, were pretty much Latinized [sic]. JJ: That was like that connection between both those areas. SA: Pretty much that Latino. JJ: And Division Street, that area. SA: I never asked people if they came from Clark Avenue. Just -- JJ: No. You just didn’t know. SA: But that’s where they moved. JJ: People didn’t say it yet, but that’s where they moved into. SA: Right. 30 �JJ: I just only know from the research and stuff. But that community is old. The Noble, Madison Street (inaudible), definitely and older community in Chicago for Puerto Ricans. SA: That’s right. JJ: Also Italian. SA: When we moved there, it was not Puerto Rican. It was a lot of Polish. St. Boniface Church was a Polish church right there. But Santa Maria Addolorata, which is where they had (Spanish) [00:50:53] de Maria, which is on Ohio, near Racine there, that was Italian. [00:51:00] So these two communities for moving out of the city or whatever, moving farther north west. JJ: And the Puerto Ricans were moving in. SA: That’s right. JJ: Created some friction a little bit there. So now you’re in college. What college was that? SA: I went to Southeast Community College. JJ: Where’s that? SA: Oh my God, I think it was South Chicago Street? JJ: Was it South Chicago? SA: Yeah. JJ: So it’s not in Chicago, you said? SA: No, it’s in Chicago. But South Chicago. JJ: Hyde Park? SA: No. Farther. 31 �JJ: Farther, further south? SA: Southeast. JJ: Oh, the Southeast. Towards Hammond and stuff like that? SA: Well, Hammond, no. It was right in Chicago. JJ: 95th Street? SA: Yeah, around there. JJ: Around 95th and Commercial (inaudible)? SA: Commercial. I think the school was in Commercial. JJ: Was that? SA: Commercial? JJ: Actually, there were some Spanish people there. SA: Oh, yeah. [00:52:00] There were some Puerto Ricans living there. JJ: They had Puerto Ricans living there (inaudible). SA: But when I went to that community college, as I can recollect, I was the only Puerto Rican or Latino there. And I don’t remember. It was highly Jewish. JJ: (inaudible) neighborhood. They just didn’t have a lot of Puerto Ricans going to college at that time. SA: Yeah. JJ: Is that correct? Or am I incorrect? SA: Yeah. I don’t think we, very few families thought of their kids going to college at that time. There were a lot of Jewish. That used to be a Jewish community on Jeffrey/Jackson Park area, until the Blacks moved in that area, especially the huge chunk of people who moved. 32 �JJ: The Caballeros de San Juan played in Jackson Park for a while. They used to play softball, I think. SA: Well, yes. Part of the Caballeros de San Juan, like I told you, they organized baseball games and stuff like this. [00:53:00] So I was, as I recollect, I think I was the only Puerto Rican. There were a couple of Mexican American, but they came from the South Chicago area, who went to the community college. And I don’t think people knew Latinos or Puerto Ricans. They thought I was Jewish. What’s a Puerto Rican doing here? So I had friends. My friends there were Jewish and Black. JJ: In the college? SA: Yeah. JJ: And what were you studying at the time? SA: Oh, just the regular first two years of, you know. JJ: Core classes? SA: Yeah. Ended up with an AA degree. JJ: An AA degree? What is that? SA: AA. It’s like a two-year degree you get. JJ: Oh, an associate. [00:54:00] An associate? SA: Associate of Arts. Yeah, that’s what I got. JJ: But what major? What were you majoring in? Basic general? SA: Basic general because I was thinking of law. Actually, political education. I was really interested in political education (inaudible). JJ: What got you interested in political education? 33 �SA: Because I saw some group of people in the area of Ashland and Augusta, the Northwest Community Organization? And when there was that so-called Puerto Rican Riot. JJ: The NCO? SA: That’s right. NCO. I went out at my house, and we talk about it, and they were talking. JJ: So this was 1966? You’re talking about the Puerto Rican Riot of 1966? SA: Yeah. I came across that kind of activity. I got involved with [00:55:00] NCO. JJ: So the riot kind of affected your thinking? SA: Well, I was in the middle of the riot. I was caught in there. JJ: You can describe what riot? SA: I’ll tell you what, it was the most fearsome thing that I -- my brother and I were visiting a friend of ours on Division Street, and then we saw all these group of people coming, and the police. We actually asked the police to escort us out of the area. So I was interested in that kind of politics. JJ: What do you mean that kind of politics? SA: Community organizing, defending your rights, that kind of stuff. Because I have been exposed to the whole question of, to my own readings, to discussion with other people about the lack of rights that Puerto Rico had as a nation. JJ: Was it Wells School or at [00:56:00] the college? SA: No, this was in Wells High School. JJ: So you were in high school. SA: I became interested in that, and I became interested in knowing more about -- 34 �JJ: What year was this? What year? SA: Oh, you always (inaudible). JJ: This was before this riot, though, right? It was before ’66? SA: I was caught in the middle of the riots. JJ: So this was before the riot that you were interested in the politics? SA: Yeah. I was mostly interested in the whole question of Puerto Rican independence because I remember as a kid, in the 1950s, when Albizu Campos got his group of people together, and I was already living in Chicago. And I said, “Oh, wow, Puerto Ricans are fighting for something.” I was impressed by that. And I always admired Pedro Albizu Campo because I saw in him somebody who stood up for what he said was right and was able to put his life. JJ: So you’re talking about the Truman thing in 1953? SA: Yes. Right. JJ: 1953 when (inaudible)? [00:57:00] SA: I was already living in Chicago. Yes. I was living in Chicago, and as a young kid, I remember that. And I got so mad when Channel 7, Flynn, that was the guy who spent fifty years in the station as their main reporter, came out, and then he said, “Nice going, Puerto Ricans.” This is what happened. This is the story that he said, a comment that wasn’t written, “Nice going, Puerto Ricans.” And I was just doubly upset. I couldn’t stand that man ever since I heard him say that. So I was always interested in the question of Puerto Rican -- JJ: About how old were you that time -- about? SA: Perhaps eleven years old. 35 �JJ: So you were already eleven in 1953? SA: Yeah. I remember, and that had a whole impact on me. I don’t know why. JJ: You’re Puerto Rican, I mean, [00:58:00] it was a -- SA: Yeah, but, you know. So there were other many Puerto Ricans, and they were so embarrassed that the Puerto Ricans did that. And I felt proud that Albizu Campos did that. Just the opposite of those people in my community. And then I started reading about political situation in other countries. Later on, when I took history, a lot of history courses in high school, and I used to read about the Soviet Union. I remember a class where I was defending the right of the Soviets to defend their airspace when Eisenhower sent spy planes. And I remember that. I was arguing. I remember saying, “What about if the Russians sent their planes here to spy on United States?” I remember arguing [00:59:00] with the class and the teachers, and there were some visitors. And then they were trying to show (Spanish) [00:59:08] the kind of thing that is going on. I don’t think the visitors were expecting some kid to defend the Soviet Union’s right to shoot down a US plane because it was fighting over their airspace. So for some reason, I have become very much interested in politics. JJ: But this was you, not your father or mother? SA: Oh my God, I hate to say this, but my father always claimed to have been an admirer of Adolph Hitler. I said, “Oh my God, how can you say this?” I don’t know if he was doing it to spite me, but I just could never understand why a hardworking man like him [01:00:00] with a sense of justice, felt that way. My 36 �mother felt that I was a little bit crazy because of these thoughts that came to my mind. I remember when Governor Muñoz came to Chicago. JJ: Muñoz Marin? SA: Yeah, Muñoz Marin. JJ: Luis Muñoz Marin. SA: And I went, came visited the city of Chicago. And I remember going to the places hearing him talk. Anyway, I don’t understand how I became interested in this. I think some people are born with this idea. JJ: When you were in high school, did you join any organization or anything like that? SA: Spanish club, basically [01:01:00] because of culture kind of things. I think I -- JJ: Like social club? SA: We just met socially, to discuss. JJ: Because I know they had a lot of social clubs in the neighborhood. Were you in one of those? SA: No, it was a high school club. JJ: Oh, a high school club. SA: There were the -- JJ: Oh, like at (inaudible) or something like that? SA: (inaudible) didn’t exist yet. JJ: (inaudible). SA: (inaudible) came later, much later. But I did go to some of the groups that already existed, like El Congreso Puerto Rican. I remember going. 37 �JJ: What was that like? El Congreso Puerto Rican, that’s an important part of our history. SA: Well, it was a social club. It was a social club with emphasis on trying to get the different town clubs to come together and form an organization. JJ: So there was town clubs, different social clubs that -- SA: No, each town, might have [01:02:00] its own social club. JJ: In Chicago? SA: Like Moca. (Spanish) [01:02:02]. And then (Spanish) [01:02:11] tried to get all these clubs together. JJ: Puerto Rican Congress was it like (inaudible)? SA: That’s right. That’s what it’s called congress. JJ: An association of all these social clubs that existed within the Puerto Rican community? SA: Correct. So that was the attempt. JJ: Now, they were located at Larrabee and North Avenue in Lincoln Park? SA: I know at one time -- they moved quite a bit. I remember that one time, I had to take the Ogden bus down to North Avenue or something because that’s where -- JJ: That’s where they were located on Ogden and North Avenue? SA: Oh, but I remember going there. JJ: That’s Lincoln Park. SA: Yes. I remember going there. JJ: So you went to those activities. SA: Well, to all of them, but I knew about the thing. 38 �JJ: So what were some of the activities? What did they do? SA: Dominos was a huge way of meeting people. [01:03:00] So I went to the Domino tournaments. I went to the parties. They organized dances for Christmas and celebrations. At that time, I think they were trying to form the idea of having a Puerto Rican parade. JJ: I believe that’s who started the Puerto Rican parade. For them and Council Number Three. SA: Whatever. JJ: San Marcos. SA: But then I noticed one thing. JJ: So the Puerto Rican (inaudible), I believe, was elected there. SA: Oh, was it? I’m not sure. I wasn’t that involved, but I knew about them (inaudible). JJ: But there were activities like that (inaudible)? SA: Yeah. So I went to go there. I went over there. And since my brothers used to play or my -- JJ: So they played there too? SA: Well, just little bands, play anywhere. So whenever they called their services, they were there. So my father and [01:04:00] my uncle usually had some kind of musical group, especially my uncle, used to have trios. He usually ended up playing in all those places. JJ: And Puerto Rican Congress? SA: Puerto Rican didn’t have bars to go to. 39 �JJ: Oh, they didn’t have bars? SA: No. JJ: But they had the social clubs, weren’t they (inaudible)? SA: They had the social club. JJ: (inaudible) clubs and bars. SA: Oh, yeah. Well, they were clubs where they sold soda -- JJ: Beer. SA: Beer and rum. JJ: But they were more family oriented. SA: It was strictly family oriented. JJ: So actually, that was good (inaudible)? SA: It wasn’t like the (Spanish) [01:04:37] in the neighborhood where men, women, usually the prostitutes came around it. No, it was family oriented. And that’s where I came. But going back, I did become -- those were the reasons why I came interested in political situations. Then [01:05:00] after the riot, I saw this group, NCO, trying to organize the -- into some kind of organized group to defend our rights and the rights that we as Puerto Ricans have in this country, according to the Constitution. Now I’m adding this later on, but at that time, I just felt angry because -- and this offered a way of doing (inaudible) in the community. So we ended up doing, helping people with buildings, that was NCO. Going around asking people if they (inaudible) and trying to get the city involved, harassing the neighborhood, that kind of thing. JJ: (inaudible) any building problems in that (inaudible)? 40 �SA: Yeah. JJ: So you would go door to door or something like that? SA: Yeah, we went door to door and knocked on people. JJ: And they were located where? SA: NCO at that time was on Ashland Avenue. JJ: So not too far from where (inaudible) was? SA: I think close to Augusta. [01:06:00] I think they stayed there until they folded out as an organization. So I was interested in that. JJ: What about other groups that you were members of? SA: Well -- JJ: Or did they (inaudible)? SA: It was strictly NCO. JJ: It was strictly NCO? SA: Yeah. And then later, many years after, I was involved in organizing the Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition, which we found. JJ: Before that, when did you -- didn’t you go to jail or something for (inaudible)? SA: That was many years before. JJ: When was that? And what year was that about? SA: Well, I was in junior college. It was the beginning of the Vietnam War. JJ: What year about? SA: 1960s, probably? JJ: Early 1960s? 41 �SA: Early ’50s. I don’t remember. To me, days are not that important. It’s actually, anyway. JJ: (inaudible). SA: But you always come back, “Well, what year?” [01:07:00] It was around the 1960s that I – JJ: You’ve (inaudible) the Vietnam War? SA: Yeah, Vietnam War. JJ: And were you working with any group at that time? Were you a member of any groups? SA: No, it was strictly an individual action that I took. JJ: An individual action? SA: Yeah. JJ: What was the action? SA: I just refused to go to Vietnam when I was drafted. JJ: So you were drafted, and you refused to go, but did someone support you, endorse you? SA: No. Wait a minute, let me -- no. I did it. And then I went out and searched for people who were involved I guess (inaudible) that war in Vietnam. So I came across a little group of college students called CADRE, Chicago Area Draft Resisters. JJ: But hold on, if you can hold on. Chicago Area Draft Resisters, you mean to tell me that without any backup or anything like that -- SA: I made a decision that I was not -- 42 �JJ: You made a decision on your own crazy self -- ? SA: That I was not going to serve United States. JJ: Your own crazy self that you were not going to serve in the United States Army? SA: This is my reasoning. [01:08:00] I don’t want Vietnam to go to what my people have gone through in Puerto Rico when the United States took over. That was my reason. I’m not going to help United States -- JJ: So you got (Spanish) [01:08:10]? SA: Yes. JJ: In your mind? SA: In my mind, I was independent. JJ: You were already just happy that, about the attack on Blair House and Albizu Campos and that. So in your head you (inaudible). SA: I had the feelings towards (inaudible) and independent and that we were a Latino country. JJ: And that Puerto Rico was a nation. SA: That’s right. JJ: So you were already feeling that already? SA: I always felt that. Like I said, since I was eleven years old, whatever. JJ: That’s what I can see. So you weren’t actually that crazy. You already -- SA: I was following my own ideas. Political -- JJ: Your own idealism. SA: Yeah. So then I heard about this group -- JJ: But you went on your own. 43 �SA: I went on my own and then -- JJ: With no backup or anything. And basically, what did you do and then what happened? SA: When they called me, I said, “No.” JJ: And then what happened? SA: Well, [01:09:00] they threatened me, blah, blah, blah. JJ: They sent letters? SA: They said, the process was, they send you a letter. “Welcome. You have been selected to join the US Army. [laughs] Please report on this date.” And I say, “I’m not going to go.” JJ: So you didn’t report, or did you call them? SA: No, I went. I said I’m going to -- JJ: Oh, you went there? SA: I went there, and I said, “No.” When they asked, you said no. Are you sure you know what you did? No. You’re going to end up in prison, blah, blah. No, no, no, no. JJ: Did they arrest you right there? SA: No, they didn’t arrest me there. They just sent me home. And then a couple of weeks later, I got a letter to report to court. But I heard about the CADRE, the Chicago Area Draft Resisters. JJ: So you reported to court. What court? And where did you go? SA: To the federal building in Chicago. JJ: So you reported to the federal court in Chicago? 44 �SA: Right. Because (inaudible). JJ: Were you arrested there? [01:10:00] SA: I spent one day in jail until they did a trial on me. JJ: In one day, or you got bonded out? SA: I went out on my own. JJ: Recognizance? SA: Recognizance. And then I went home. JJ: And then a few weeks later, you went to court? SA: Yeah. Well maybe a couple of months later. A week. JJ: And so you still hadn’t changed your mind? SA: No, I haven’t changed my mind. But let me tell you, I learned about the Chicago Area Draft Resisters. I went for help and we got together. Then I got to meet the American Friends Service Committee. And I said, to please my mother, I tried to get a -- what you call it, conscientious objection, which I knew I was not going to get anyway, because I knew that after reading that for political reasons they wouldn’t give conscientious objection. Basically, it was for religious purposes. But I went anyway to please my mother, appease her. But no. JJ: Because your mother didn’t want you to go to jail? SA: No. I think no. My mother never. [01:11:00] JJ: She basically said, “This is (inaudible).” SA: And my father didn’t want me to go either. JJ: And you had never been in any trouble before? 45 �SA: Never. So I went, and I got to meet Chicago Area Draft Resisters, and then I began to participate in many activities. JJ: This was before you went to court? SA: Yeah. Against the war. And I met some great people who were involved in all kinds of social -- activities for change. The anti-war people I met at the -- JJ: Were there any other Puerto Ricans in Chicago that had refused to go? SA: As far as I know, I was the first one, and I came out on the picture. JJ: (inaudible). SA: Let me see. They took a picture of me when I went to a community hearing to declare my -- reported it at an organization. I don’t remember the organization, if it was NCO or what. [01:12:00] That little mag, Black Jet, came to this thing and they took my picture. JJ: And that was it? That (inaudible)? SA: Black Jet. JJ: So you came out in Black Jet? (inaudible). SA: So when I went to prison, “Oh, here’s the guy that was in the -- ” JJ: So you went to prison via the Black Jet? SA: Some (inaudible) Black guy has a copy of the Jet magazine where my picture is there, and I’m pointing out to the statistics of Latinos versus -- JJ: So you went to federal prison then? SA: Yeah. Because refusing to be drafted is a federal offense. So you had to go to a federal offender (inaudible). I was sent out to Southern Illinois. Let me see. Oh 46 �my God. Sometimes I erase from my mind back in my place. I went to the prison. JJ: Marion is in -- SA: Marion, [01:13:00] thank you. I went to Marion. They put me in the trustee prison. I forgot what they call those people. JJ: Trustee. Because it was the first time (inaudible). SA: Right. And then I was surprised to have seen so many -- all the people who have refused to draft before religious people. JJ: How much time where you given? How much sentence? SA: I was sentenced three years. JJ: Three years? So how many months did you do on three years? SA: I spent two years. JJ: (inaudible). SA: And then the last year was on recognizance. JJ: Like on parole. SA: Right. On parole as in probation. So I was probation one year. JJ: So now you are going to jail for the very first time in your life, and you never did anything. SA: I did one thing. JJ: How did you feel? SA: I thought I was going to be put wearing those stripe things like you see in the movies. This is how naive I was. That I had a chain with a big ball dragging. 47 �[01:14:00] It wasn’t that at all. Then they put me for a couple of weeks in isolation to acclimatize me to the rules of the prison. JJ: But by that time, you’ve gotten some support from this Chicago Area Draft Resisters? SA: Yeah. JJ: So when you felt a little at least you had somebody there (inaudible)? SA: They came out to my trial. JJ: So that gave you a little bit morale or something like that? SA: Yeah. And there was support from people from AFSC, American Friends Service Committee. One of the ministers came and visited me and all that kind of stuff. JJ: And at that time -- SA: In fact, Greg-- the committee -- Gregory, Dick Gregory. JJ: Dick Gregory. SA: Came to my house and talked to my mother and father about what a great thing I have done. It feels (inaudible) to go in. Dick Gregory went to my house. [01:15:00] I didn’t even know that until I came out of prison that he had talked to my mother and to my father. JJ: Because that was way before the Young Lords started as a political group and we were a gang at that time. SA: Really? When Dick Gregory -- JJ: Right, because later on, we started in ’68, in September of ’68, and that was way before that. But we did hear about you at that time. (inaudible). 48 �SA: Well, like I said, I was in the newspaper, whatever it was, in a Black magazine, Black Jet. I didn’t know I was making such an impact. And this is where LADO came in. JJ: And LADO is how we heard about you (inaudible). SA: Well, because I was -- JJ: Because we started working with Latin American Defense Organization. SA: I started working with LADO and the whole question of peace. JJ: What happened? While you’re in jail, what are you doing? Are you reading? SA: I’m reading, basically, poetry, writing stuff, [01:16:00] putting songs together. JJ: Were you into poetry? Is that why you were reading poetry or just (inaudible)? SA: I loved poetry all the time. Even when I was going to community college and when I was going to Roosevelt University, the idea of reading poetry always fascinated me. Reading Spanish stories and Spanish books and all that (Spanish) [01:16:23]. All that thing always attracted, culture. JJ: So you came out of jail. Did you have any -- I mean, you’re in jail. I know it’s a federal penitentiary, it’s not a state prison. And those are supposed to be a little bit more easier they say than the state prison. SA: Well, yes. JJ: Did you have a hard time? SA: No, I never had any hard time. I had some -- JJ: Challenges. SA: Big challenges. I think it was basically to see how far I would stand for myself. JJ: People do that in jail. 49 �SA: Yeah. I know a group of people try to [01:17:00] make me have sex with them. When I said, “No, you better kill me.” And they just back away. And then I practice some psychology recently, say “You do this.” (inaudible) this guy believe in basically, “You do this, you kill me, but I won’t let you sleep or leave you in peace because I’ll haunt you for the rest of your life.” And he was terrified. He let me alone. Then everybody -- JJ: But usually there’s other Puerto Ricans there too? SA: No, there weren’t many. No. JJ: In federal, yeah. They don’t send them to federal yet. SA: No. Puerto Ricans were not -- JJ: It’s a luxury. So they don’t send -- SA: Puerto Ricans were not there. The only large group of people who were not criminals were the Jehovah Witnesses because they refused to go into the -- JJ: So you had some other people that refused also? SA: Yeah, there were a lot of them. JJ: A lot of them? SA: Jehovah Witnesses, large numbers of them, [01:18:00] thirty to forty or more who refused to go because it was against their religion because they all claim to be ministers, and they felt that since they were ministers, they should get an exemption. JJ: Did you make friends with them? SA: Oh, yeah. I made some friends. I think they felt that, “Why don’t you join us?” JJ: They’re saying (inaudible). 50 �SA: Yeah, they thought I was true to my word. And they felt this is the kind of people we need in Jehovah Witnesses. They wanted me to join their group. JJ: How did your mom and dad feel that when you were in there? SA: Oh, they came to visit me. Even my father who was against the whole idea came to visit with (inaudible). JJ: Because they were proud, no, that you were taking an action? SA: My mother supported me, my father, but I don’t think they were proud. They thought I was crazy. Let me tell you. When I said [01:19:00] that I had said no, I remember my mother going to an tirade. She took all the books and threw it on the floor. “This is what books have done to you. They made you crazy.” Then she threw all the books and she said, “I want to burn them. I want to burn them.” That was my mother screaming. Upset what I had done. JJ: You never did give your mom and dad’s name. SA: Oh, my father’s name is Domingo [Aviles?] Aviles, and my mother’s name is (Spanish) [01:19:32]. JJ: Sorry about that. SA: My father was born in Moca, but a little barrio called (Spanish) [01:19:44] at that time. JJ: And your mom was from Moca also? SA: Yeah, she’s from the central part of Moca. JJ: Now, did you get a lot of visitors or a lot of letters or anything like that? SA: I got -- JJ: From your family? 51 �SA: My mother and father were the only ones who [01:20:00] showed up. I don’t even know if my sister visited. JJ: And then did you get letters from strangers or that (inaudible) supported (inaudible)? SA: Not many, but some friend wrote me all the time just because we had a crush on each other. And she was actively politically involved with American Friends Service Committee. And she went out with a group of people, burned the draft board, and then they said -- JJ: Can you explain? I heard about that. SA: And they said they took all the files. JJ: What was her name? SA: Linda Quint. JJ: Right. I heard that name, Linda. SA: Linda Quint. JJ: So she was the one that burned down the -- ? SA: She and a couple of Catholic prison nuns and some people went at night. You see, they had no security there. Right now, they would have been killed. They went in there and took out all the files out because she knew that my files were there and that (inaudible) service was (inaudible). JJ: So you actually were writing to her. She was your girlfriend at that time? [01:21:00] SA: Huh? JJ: She was your girlfriend at that time? You were writing her, or just a friend? 52 �SA: No, she just visited me. JJ: But she knew that your file was in there? SA: Probably, so. Anyway, so they went to that service board, took out all the files, made a bonfire in the yard, and then they stood around singing songs, and the police came and arrested them. JJ: But I heard they threw red paint or something like that, or to make it look like blood or something, or no? SA: I don’t know if they did. JJ: They just had a bonfire? SA: The only thing I know they burned the things. Then afterwards, they (inaudible), they didn’t stick around and get arrested. So some of them went to Canada, including my friend Linda. She went to Canada. JJ: She’s still alive? Did you see her? SA: I think she’s still alive, but I never heard from her after that. Never communicated with each other. JJ: But she had been visiting you when (inaudible)? SA: Oh, [01:22:00] she visited me with other people from AFSC. And there was a Reverend [Horton?], who came out and made it a point to visit all conscientious objection and people who objected to the war. JJ: Now, were you a member already of American Friends, or that came later? SA: No, I was already involved with American, not as a member, in their activities. JJ: In their activities. 53 �SA: I never joined formally the American Friends Service Committee, but I knew they were -- JJ: You were working with AFSC? SA: I knew them and respected them. Because they were the group that defied United States and took medical supplies to Vietnam at the threat of being fired upon by US Naval. They went that far. So I say this group has a history of defending what they considered right, because they were very much involved in the anti-slavery struggle. [01:23:00] So I knew that they were serious about what they thought was right and fighting for that, not just praying, but actually doing stuff. And I was not a member, but I did go there and used to get material translated into Spanish and pass them out. But I was not a member. There weren’t many Puerto Ricans there. JJ: In the jail in Marion? SA: No. No Puerto Ricans in Marion. Or many Puerto Ricans involved in the antiwar movement in Chicago. Yes. JJ: But you were the first draft resister. SA: That’s right. Like I said, I became, well-known in Chicago and in the Black community. But even Dick Gregory came to my house and visited my mother and father. I think Obed Lopez [Zacarias] had a lot to do with that when he came to my (inaudible). JJ: [01:24:00] Now, so you come out, at what year did you come out of the jail? SA: Oh my God. About 1985 or 1986. 54 �JJ: 1986? That was later. No. No, I mean that you came out of the jail for the drafts. I think it was in the ’60s. Well, I remember -- SA: No, it was ’64 when I graduated from college, Roosevelt. So I was in the 1960s that I came out of prison. JJ: That’s what I mean. It was the ’60s. SA: Not the ’80s. Did I say ’80s? Oh, please. No, no, that was the ’60s. It was 1960. I think it was 1965 or 1966. JJ: 1966? SA: Yes. JJ: Because you came out and you were in the riot. The riot came later, right? SA: Well, there were two riots. JJ: What’s the first riot? SA: [01:25:00] The first one is when I first was there as a young kid, and I asked the policeman to escort me out of this dangerous place on Division Street. Then the second one, I was -- JJ: Because I know there was a riot in North Avenue, but maybe (inaudible). SA: North Avenue? No. JJ: At St. Michaels. SA: No, I wasn’t aware of that. JJ: So there was another one in Division Street before that? SA: Yeah, 1966. Well, I think they approached me when they heard that I refuse induction. JJ: Is this Obed Lopez from -- ? 55 �SA: Obed Lopez from Latin American Development. JJ: Latin American Defense Organization? SA: Latin American Defense Organization. JJ: So they approached you, and did they go to see you in jail? SA: Oh, yes. We want to support you. They say yes. So we got together. JJ: They visited you in jail? SA: No, before that. Before I went to jail, they came out. And I became a [01:26:00] member of LADO supporting the whole idea of trying to develop a bigger conscience of the war in the Puerto Rican community. We used information from the American Friends Service Committee, so I used to go there to get ideas for leaflets. We used to print a newspaper. [Nuestro Pueblo?], I think it was, and I used to write for them. And from there, I used to visit other places in Chicago that dealt with the whole question of Latinos involving social service advocacy and civil rights issues. And Obed saw me there, he approached me and said, “Yes, I’ll work with your organization.” Voluntarily. Because people think you used the word work is that you’re paid. Actually, volunteers pay for volunteering. [01:27:00] That’s my experience. They don’t pay us what we pay to volunteer and work for those organizations. But anyway, so we did a lot of marches against the welfare department that did not want to have people who speak Spanish in the offices and things like that. And Obed, of course, used to get his head cracked once in a while by the police when they invaded social offices that dealt with welfare. And there was a group of women primarily who were involved in that organization. So that’s how, and then we worked together in that issue 56 �and other issues afterwards, after I came out of prison. I continued involvement with LADO, Latin American Defense Organization. JJ: You never went to jail after that or anything like that? SA: I went to jail once, but that was [01:28:00] when I was a member of the Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition. I told you that was a group that grew out of NCO. We felt that we needed an organization strictly Puerto Rico or Latin American. And Peter Earl was an organizer for NCO, and Tyson to come and help us organize Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition. Reverend Morales was an active member of the NCO. We attracted him, and we formed the Coalición Accion Latina. JJ: How was that kind structured? SA: Well, we structured that as a membership organization of other organizations. So I came there representing (Spanish) [01:28:46], and other people came representing other organizations in the Puerto Rican Latino community. [01:29:00] So it was a membership organization made up of members of different organizations. JJ: But not the organization, just members from each organization? SA: Yeah. But we did a lot of action as members of the coalition. JJ: So I understand they used the model of Saul Alinsky type of organization? SA: Well, yes. The people that we attracted were Saul Alinsky people, individuals who worked for NCO. JJ: So NCO was a Saul Alinsky type of -- ? SA: Yes, it was. 57 �JJ: And so you attracted those people into the Westtown Coalition, Concerned Citizens Coalition? SA: Correct. It was -- got funding to continue this organization. JJ: Now, they were pretty active for a number of years. Even after the ’60s, Young Lords, they were pretty active. SA: Yeah. Well, basically -- JJ: Did you know about the Young Lords at the time at all? SA: I knew about the Young Lords as soon as I got out of prison. JJ: [01:30:00] How did you learn about them? SA: Well, I read about you guys. JJ: In the jail or out here? SA: It was outside. It was pretty hard to get information because there was a lot of censorship of material that we could get. I knew about the Young Lords. JJ: So how did you feel about that group? SA: They were nationalists. JJ: (inaudible). SA: Yeah, I related them. JJ: (inaudible) from Puerto Rico. SA: And I was working for volunteering, and I didn’t even want to say working -- JJ: So how did you feel? SA: (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) somebody else (inaudible)? 58 �SA: And then we felt, oh my God, we wish that the Latin Kings could do the same thing. And we opened a lot of offices for the Latin Kings. And soon, we found out that that was not going to work. JJ: [01:31:00] What do you mean? SA: I mean, we opened up things so they could get there and use the space, and then suddenly, we discovered they were sneaking in drugs. And one time, somebody overdosed, they had to take the person outside of the building to the back door. And we said, “This is not going to work.” So we separated it. JJ: So they didn’t stop their gang activity, or did they try? Were they trying? SA: I think they meant well, but I don’t think they really have an idea of really doing what the Young Lords were trying to do. They just talk about it. And we believed. JJ: You believed them? SA: Yeah. And we soon gave that idea up because it didn’t work. They were interested in other things. JJ: So you’re with the Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition, and you’re working with the (inaudible) Cultural Center? SA: Ah-huh. JJ: And can you explain who they are? SA: [01:32:00] Well -- JJ: And how you got involved. SA: Well, I got involved because I was working for Aspira after I got out of prison as a educational counselor and club organizer. 59 �JJ: Now, you got paid for Aspira, though, did you? SA: No, Aspira was a paid job. And as Aspirante organizer, I went to different high schools throughout the city of Chicago, basically Gage High School? JJ: And the purpose was what? SA: Organize clubs to get people interested in education, getting a high school diploma and going on to college, and bringing in some of the cultural things that seemed to be so important in terms of Puerto Ricans, because there was no real attempt to educate us or ourselves on our [01:33:00] own history. We heard things like in the schools, Puerto Ricans have no history. I remember one person was working, who worked for one of the organizations, I don’t want to mention the name because it’s the husband of somebody who was a leader in one of those. And he argued with me. The Puerto Ricans had no history. And I didn’t even say, “You mean no history? Even a rock has a history.” And I felt that Puerto Ricans needed to know something about themselves in order to feel good about yourself, you have to know something about yourself because if all you hear that you’re just gang members, you’re here because you are too lazy to work. You come from the island to get welfare. That kind of lies. (inaudible) some of us actually believe that. They tell you something, you tend to believe that is true. [01:34:00] But then the people I saw around me, there were some people who live in welfare. But most Puerto Ricans had a job. A few of them did not, that’s true. But that doesn’t make the whole Puerto Rican community a welfare-dependent community. So we talk about those things, and we had cultural events at the schools in which we celebrated Puerto Rican days. In fact, 60 �one time, I went as far as pushing -- not pushing, but convincing our students to join a takeover of North Avenue Beach. It was a takeover, Puerto Rican takeover of North Avenue Beach. JJ: When was this? About when? SA: I think that was around early ’70s. JJ: Early ’70s? SA: Yeah. JJ: And why would they want it? I thought that was already a Puerto Rican area. North Avenue Beach. SA: Well, I don’t know. [01:35:00] But people went there. But we were going to claim North Avenue Beach a -- JJ: A Puerto Rican beach? SA: A piece of Puerto Rico. JJ: A piece of Puerto Rico? SA: So we went and convinced our students to get together, and we brought flags, and we rode in a U-Haul van. And we went over there, and we put the flags, “Lovely Puerto Rico,” blah, blah, blah. And then the FBI actually came out and was trying to find out why we were taking over the beach. It wasn’t like occupied Chicago now in this space, but it was something similar. JJ: What do you mean the FBI came out? How did you know that they were FBI? SA: Because they identified themselves. “Why were you doing this in the beach?” JJ: Were there a lot of people that came? 61 �SA: A lot of people were there because people who used the beaches. The students were very [01:36:00] happy and having a great time. JJ: You were in the Humboldt Park community. Why didn’t you go to Humboldt Park? SA: Because the students were not from Humboldt Park. This was a student from Gage Park High School. And this is what they related, North Avenue Beach, so that’s why we took over North Avenue Beach. JJ: Actually, there were Puerto Ricans going at that time to North Avenue Beach? SA: Yeah. JJ: A few. SA: From different parts of the city. JJ: But it used to be an Italian and Polish and German beach before that. When the Young Lords were gang, we remember us taking it over, but we didn’t do it that way. (inaudible) but there’s another. SA: We have fun here. JJ: So it was a good event and everybody came and (inaudible)? SA: Yeah. (inaudible). JJ: You were under surveillance? SA: Yeah, we were. JJ: One of the things that Westtown -- was it Westtown Concerned Citizens at all [01:37:00] involved in that -- ? 62 �SA: Well, we developed a housing organization called [CHECK?], a guy named [Bash Smith?], which later, this CHECK later developed into LUCHA, Latin United for whatever, something, which is still a housing organization that exists now. JJ: So what are some of the issues that you -- ? SA: We work on employment. I mean we did a whole bunch of marches and taking over lobbies of different post offices because we wanted the place opened to more Latino workers in the different post offices. Of course, a lot of educational stuff we did, including battles against principals who were racist and had a clear anti-Puerto Rican [01:38:00] agenda in the school. So we fought with that. In fact, Reverend Morales got arrested and beat up in one of those schools. JJ: Reverend Morales, Reverend Jose Morales? SA: Yeah, Reverend Morales. He was a great activist at that time. Jobs, I think for the post office. Education, primarily, issues. And housing were the three issues that we -- JJ: You also did police abuse also? No? SA: Well -- JJ: Not a lot? SA: I don’t think we dealt with that much. JJ: So jobs, housing, and education? SA: Yeah. Those were the three main areas of Westtown Concerned Citizen. JJ: Now, did you join any other organizations at that time while in the -- ? SA: Well, later on, [01:39:00] I became member -- not actually become a member of the PSP, but I was one of the travelers. 63 �JJ: What was PSP? SA: Huh? JJ: What’s PSP? SA: What do you mean? JJ: What did it stand for (inaudible)? SA: Puerto Rican Socialist Party. Puerto Rican Independent Socialist Party, something like that. I don’t know. JJ: (inaudible)? SA: PSP, Puerto Rican Socialist -- JJ: In Puerto Rico and it was here also? SA: Yeah, right. So I belonged to them. JJ: And that actually (inaudible)? SA: We did some marches. JJ: (inaudible) Movimiento Pro-Independencia in Puerto Rico? SA: It was here, became the Movimiento Pro-Independencia. But then later, they became -- JJ: The PSP? SA: PSP. But on the MPI, Movimiento Pro-Independencia, we participated in lot of political forums with other organizations. Some of these were left organizations from United States. JJ: Well, I remember the Young Lords were learning a lot from the Movimiento ProIndependencia in Puerto Rico. [01:40:00] (inaudible) started, that’s all we heard. So they were here. (inaudible). 64 �SA: We were bringing Mari Brás, all those people here to Chicago. JJ: They were pretty activists, pretty good activists. SA: And we participated also with coalitions in the area of education. We organized the people’s -- JJ: And this came later? SA: It was -- what is that? JJ: (inaudible)? SA: People part of the Puerto Rican Parade? Contingent. That’s the word we used. The Puerto Rican -- the Socialist Party Contingent of the (Spanish) [01:40:37] of the contingent of the Puerto Rican -- JJ: Puerto Rican Parade? SA: Parade. We marched with them. We had a lot of forums. We even visited churches. I remember (inaudible). (inaudible) was very active in that organization. Later became active in (inaudible). She wanted to address a group here, [01:41:00] Amigos de la Justicia Social, Friends of Social Justice. And it was a Protestant church. And when she said that, all the group of the (inaudible), said, “Amen.” And I said, “Oh my God.” This is when we were working against Plan 21. JJ: Plan 21, a lot of people, they’re hiding that. They don’t want to admit that, City Hall doesn’t want to admit that there was a Plan 21. But everywhere you go, people know that that existed. (inaudible). SA: Plan 21 was the Mayor Daley’s -- I think it was the old Mayor Daley. JJ: The old Mayor Daley? 65 �SA: The idea of separating or getting poor people out of the center of the city. Some of the plans were to make Milwaukee Avenue like a boulevard, with trees in the middle, blah, blah, blah, blah. Close that street for buses and move poor people away from the [01:42:00] center city, away from the -- where the El-lines. JJ: Subway (inaudible). SA: Yeah, the subways. Because it was an easy way to get downtown. And the idea was, “Let’s bring all these people who left the city back to Chicago and build the economic base for a new city for the 21st century.” JJ: So the people that went to the white flight, the white flight to the suburbs, they wanted to bring them back into the city? SA: That’s right. In order to build a strong economic base for the city. JJ: So that was (inaudible). SA: And bring all those people back here and build up a new community. JJ: Did they actually put this in their publicity? SA: Yes, there is that book. I used to have this book. I don’t know who might have it, but I bet there must be in some kind of archives, Plan 21. JJ: So you were fighting them (inaudible) lawsuit? SA: We’re fighting. We even joined other groups and sued the city. JJ: Tell [01:43:00] me about that. About the lawsuit that you did. SA: Well, we stopped for a moment the continuation of that plan. But the plan continued to evolve. And look, you see, this is the 21st century. What’s happened to the Puerto Rican and poor communities that lived in the areas of 66 �Milwaukee Avenue. The area is close to downtown. They’re well developed with condominiums and stuff like this. JJ: So even though there was a court ruling, they still continued? SA: They continued. They (inaudible), they continued. And it has built up to what the city is now, really. JJ: Because it’s expanded to the lakefront? SA: Gentrification. I think we call it now gentrification of Plan 21. But gentrification means removal of the Cabrini-Green homes. They have been removed. Removal of the other public housing in State Street. [01:44:00] They have been removed. And all those areas that were burned after the Martin Luther King murder, those areas have not been developed until now. They’re beginning to be developed into condominiums. Not for working class people, but for people who have wealth, or at least now the working poor. So that plan has been successful by the city of Chicago. JJ: And what were some of the neighborhoods that were destroyed there? SA: Wicker Park, Puerto Rican. JJ: Was primary Puerto Rican? SA: Bucktown. JJ: Bucktown was primary Puerto Rican? SA: Yeah. JJ: It was destroyed? SA: It’s beginning now in what we call Division Street. JJ: Humboldt Park. 67 �SA: Division Street, Humboldt Park. Just look down on the Ashland and -- JJ: What I [01:45:00] heard from -- SA: Ashland and Madison. JJ: Noble and Chicago Avenue. What about that area? SA: Well, that area was taken in consideration, but NCO had a settling plan because they built those co-ops. And we still have many Puerto Ricans and many primarily now African-American people living there. They didn’t turn out to be a white lily. JJ: So that area, there was (inaudible) some organizing then? SA: But now, some of the houses have become condominiums or mansions. JJ: Well, Cabrini-Green housing in -- SA: Cabrini-Green is completely gone now. JJ: So that was also right around here? SA: That was also plan of the 21. JJ: Chicago Plan 21. SA: To take all these poor people, move them out into the city, move them out of the city and bring the other people. JJ: And when you went to the Puerto Rican Congress, how does that area look? Lincoln Park? SA: That area, to me, they look -- [01:46:00] it wasn’t that Puerto Rican. At that time, it was pretty white. JJ: At that time? 68 �SA: Yeah. In fact, they move out almost like a year later from the area and came back to the Puerto Rican community in Humboldt Park, Westtown. JJ: Oh, yeah, those people got pushed out from that area, but it used to be Puerto Rican (inaudible). SA: But I remember that when I knew that they were going to be moving to Ogden, I found it strange because I didn’t see too many Puerto Rican life there. JJ: Because Ogden came from -- the Puerto Rican Congress was in Ogden in a sense. SA: They were not there that long. Many years. They move out almost immediately, about two years after they organized it. And I think they moved to North Avenue because -- JJ: It spread to North Avenue West. SA: Because that’s where the Puerto Rican Congress built the building. JJ: You’re talking about the Puerto Rican Congress? SA: Yeah. JJ: [01:47:00] They weren’t there that long. SA: Yeah. JJ: They started later. SA: That became actually Caribe Ruiz’s domain. JJ: (inaudible). SA: Who did a good thing in terms of the bands. JJ: Yeah, there was a big movement of the bands at that time (inaudible). SA: That’s right. The salsa bands. 69 �JJ: The Mafia, you said. Your group. (inaudible) SA: No, no, my brothers were not involved. JJ: They were earlier. SA: The bands were actually salsa band. They were not like conjuntos, which is different. They’re not band. They’re a group of people who play guitar, blah, blah, blah, blah, that kind of music. But the salsa bands were -- the salsa bands were trumpets, wind instruments, and percussion. The other group is Puerto Rican, like popular music, but the emphasis was on guitar playing and singing. [01:48:00] Okay, not salsa for dancing. I mean, not that the people didn’t dance the other thing. But it was not like a salsa craze that later developed into what people consider Puerto Rican. Although it’s not strictly Puerto Rican. It also has Cuban influences, but developed in New York City, among most Puerto Ricans who had a great part in developing that music. It’s in bands. JJ: (inaudible). SA: I could come here to talk until twelve o’clock. JJ: No, that’s fine. (inaudible). What are you doing more or less because you’ve been involved with Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center, and so what are you doing now? What are you doing today? SA: Well -- JJ: And this was back in the ’60s. SA: That’s right. When I continue working [01:49:00] Ruiz Belvis for years, because to me, culture was very important because it’s the roots of an identity that people live in order to feel strong and defend their personality and defend their 70 �idiosyncrasy as a Puerto Rican community. So I continue working along with Ruiz Belvis, which I’m still a board member now. And I had gone from president to secretary, treasurer to janitor. All the time, janitor, because we always -- the people who organize these groups and work for them had to keep the place clean because lack of funding. So I continue being that -- now I’m just a board member. JJ: Where are they located now? SA: They’re located now on a building that we acquired about four or five years ago near Pulaski and Armitage. JJ: Pulaski and Armitage. And so they’re involved in what? What are some of the groups that [01:50:00] play here (inaudible)? SA: Well, right now, we have changed a little bit of our agenda. We don’t do much bomba and plena because we felt that everybody’s doing bomba and plena now. But when we started that, many Puerto Rican community people felt that that was no Puerto Rican music. That was African music. And we are not African. We’re not Blacks, the idea. So this is not Puerto, this is African music, the bomba and plena. Now, all the -- JJ: Puerto Ricans are three races though, right? SA: Well, we are a mixed group of people. Spanish and other European because there were a lot of Italians who moved to Puerto Rico. French was the second language of Puerto Rico until 1898. Not English -- French. Italians and other people. You look at Puerto Rican’s last name. [01:51:00] There’s some Dutch names; there’s some German names. The Oppenheimers for example, how is 71 �that Puerto Rican? And Irish. A lot of Irish went to Puerto Rico. And then of course, Africans, origin people. And the Italian Indians were not all killed by the Spanish, as history tried to teach us. Actually, what happened is that the Puerto Rican Taínos moved to the central part of the island, and then they married Spanish, and they became the (Spanish) [01:51:40], really. So that’s why we still have like eighty percent of our county genes are Taíno. And the thing is, maybe if they were killed, it was basically the men because the hard work, the mines and stuff. But the women, [01:52:00] they just went to any part of the city, any part of the island, became Puerto Ricans. And now you still can see a lot of fragments of facial features that are Taíno. But they live in the central part of the island. And of course -JJ: Is this part of the (inaudible) do this history also? SA: We do the history, the classes on Spanish and history. But right now we’re doing a lot of events in the schools in which we’re bringing the whole salsa -- not the whole salsa, the question of African-oriented Puerto Rican music into the schools, with young kids. That’s our main focus now. (Spanish) [01:52:47] which was ours for many, many, many years, as all organizations, got into troubles, internal issues, they sort of like split. And that [01:53:00] one group, some of them continue to work with us, but some of them, they felt that would betray them. Those kinds of things just happen to many groups and organizations, especially cultural groups. They say cultural groups don’t last too long. And people were amazed that we were able to keep this group for twenty-five years or something like that. So I’m still involved in that. Now we do the celebration of 72 �the freedom of slavery in Puerto Rico, which is very important. People don’t know about the history of that in Puerto Rico. Even teachers, I was surprised one time I mentioned this. I was doing group (inaudible) came to the center. We discussed about the history, and one said, “Why do you have so many people here?” And I said, “No, there was no slaves in Puerto Rico.” He said, “What are you talking about?” [01:54:00] That’s why we celebrate the birth of Ruiz Belvis because we have Puerto Rican -- he was responsible for freeing the AfricanPuerto Ricans and other Caribbean Puerto Ricans from slavery. And she said, “Ah.” She went like that. She couldn’t believe that there were Puerto Ricans who were slaves. And this was a bilingual teacher. And I said, “What is this woman teaching Puerto Rican kids?” So we celebrate the freedom of AfricanPuerto Rican people by the Spanish in April, 1872. So we still have that program going on. But we bought a building, and it came [01:55:00] very difficult to rehab it because now with this situation, where are you going to get mortgages? Where are you going to get loans to fix a building? So we’re going through some difficulty, financial. And of course, with the opposition of where we were, we had to sell our building because one day, we woke up, there was no Puerto Rican community there. JJ: So you were in Wicker Park? SA: That’s right. There was no Puerto Rican community there. JJ: So you had this displaced. (inaudible) organization. SA: So we had to find another place. JJ: And you had been there for how many years before you got this place? 73 �SA: Thirty years. JJ: Thirty years? And then you got this place? SA: Yeah. So we continue working that, trying to get the members involved also in social issues. This is a new group of people who have no idea of the struggles that we went trying to get an organization like Ruiz Belvis. [01:56:00] They think Ruiz Belvis might be just singing thing. It’s not considered by many new people as a cornerstone of Puerto Rican identity and defense. And that’s what we used to involve ourselves in housing problem, work problem. Now they say, “Oh, we do this. You lose your 501(c)3.” I said, “Oh my God.” But anyway, most of our people are grown old. JJ: This is (inaudible) the new board? SA: This is the new young people who are interested. They’re slowly developing the sense of -- but it’s difficult. JJ: Anything you think that we need to add to close? Any message that you think we should tell our community? SA: We have to continue to fight for our identity and defend those things that make us who we are. A Puerto Rican nation closely tied to Latin America. [01:57:00] Many people think that we’re not Latin Americans, you know. And unfortunately, people in Latin America think that we are just Americans. They think that we have it so easy here because we are American citizens. And I just want to say, it doesn’t make a difference if you are a citizen or not. Just look at the AfricanAmericans. They’re citizens. What have they acquired? What they have acquired is going to struggle. What the Americans here have done is to struggle. 74 �A group -- people that doesn’t struggle for what they think is just is bound to die. And I don’t want our community to be considered one of those groups that came here and died up or disappeared within the mainstream of the United States. I think this is not a melting pot. This country is actually -- some people like to say a salad, different groups of people together, [01:58:00] but with their own idiosyncrasies, their own roots and their own ideas of who they are. And we also feel that as Puerto Ricans, we need to join the struggles of other organizations or group of people like us who are fighting for justice, who are fighting for freedom, who are fighting for a better life for their children and for themselves and their community. And this is what African Americans have done. This is what American Indians have done. This is what other groups in the United States have done, including the Irish, and other groups that were Americanized at one time or another. I hope we don’t fall into the trap that because we’ve been here so many years, that we feel we’re better than other groups that are just coming in and treat them as bad as we have been treated. So I believe in freedom, justice. I believe definitely, [01:59:00] you have to struggle to get what you want because nobody’s going to give it to us. We have to fight the enemies that don’t believe in those traits of justice, equality, and freedom. Then we lost. We have to join those people, be part of them as they’re part of us in our struggles. The building that we acquired, we didn’t have the money. And it was a Jewish couple who had more money than we do, who gave us close to $60,000 to buy this building. No strings attached. They were going to lend it to us. Then they said, “Just keep it. We’re moving out of Chicago anyway.” They ended up moving to 75 �San Francisco, but they gave us the money, and that’s how we acquired the building. I mean, besides all the contributions in the community. But the majority of the money that we got to buy this building, the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Center [02:00:00] was from other groups who play an important part in our development as an organization and developing our consciousness in terms of we’re people, just like everybody else. Every people has their own culture. Every people has their own idiosyncrasy. We have to accept them the way they are, but learn to live together. JJ: Now, were you able to get any grants at all? SA: We have received grants, but grants usually for our groups are very small. It’s usually the big established organization that get much of the money. So defend what you got and fight for it. That’s what I say. And not oppress others because you’re different and they’re different. JJ: What other organizations [02:01:00] did you become members of? SA: I had become a member of various organizations. Even when I went to Puerto Rico, I founded an organization in Puerto Rico, for (inaudible) I lived and then I moved to Chicago. Another group that I had a lot of influence in me, besides the Puerto Rican Independence Group, was the Communist Party of United States. The reason being that they seem to have fought for the kind of issues that we, Puerto Ricans are interested in—social justice, equality, the end of racism, opportunities for everyone, living together no matter what race you are. We’re working together because we are all workers. And as workers, we deserve to be respected. Because who creates the richness in this country? It’s the people 76 �who work years to build the factories, to build the roads, [02:02:00] to build everything that we have become used to. Who are the ones who invent the idea of social services? It was the communist party with the party members or people like them who struggled for an eight-hour day, who struggled for benefits, from the units like Medicare, who struggled for social security when there was none in this country. It was people like them who talk about workers having rights to defend and organize in order to defend your right or else, they’ll be at the mercy of the owners of the corporations and capitalists. And who formed or was right in this country. Who formed the richness of this country? It’s the working people. So I think -- and that’s why I became a member later of the communist party. JJ: So you felt it important because they work for the [02:03:00] working people, you’re saying, the working men? (inaudible) SA: Right. Yeah. And they were -- JJ: They’re kind of outcasts in the United States, of course, because they’re -- SA: Well, because at one time, they were influential. JJ: (inaudible). SA: The structure of the government made a point to destroy them because they became afraid of what the communists were doing, organizing the working class, getting the AFL-CIO all together. And they forced the unions to kick all communists out. And then anybody who wanted to say something, and if they wanted to punish these people that accused them of being a communist. And the McCarthy era, a lot of people who had nothing to do with communism were destroyed because they couldn’t find jobs. Some of them committed suicide, or 77 �else they changed their names. And especially people who work in the movie industry, who has stories to tell [02:04:00] so they could not get jobs. And this kind of tradition continues. It’s not as much as before, but many people still are afraid that the communists are the devils. JJ: (inaudible) the image that is (inaudible). SA: And you know they work for -- JJ: But actually, they’re in many countries. SA: Oh, yes. It’s a worldwide. JJ: It’s worldwide. SA: Worldwide. They understand their -- JJ: Especially in this country, it is a free speech country that people should not have to worry about that. SA: Well, it’s free when it’s free. But when they decide to shut us up, they would do the (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible)? (inaudible). SA: That here where organizations were infiltrated, where members were putting traps so they could be considered criminals and arrested them. So it’s freedom until [02:05:00] they think that we’re stepping on their toes and then they want to shut us up. And we always have to be aware of that and be careful and not be shut by them because of fear. JJ: And that’s one of the reasons you also joined that organization? SA: Yeah. JJ: Okay, just to (inaudible). 78 �SA: And I saw a lot of people who were in prison, who died in prison, who were punished in prison, like Winston. He was blinded in prison because he was accused of being a communist, and the prison wanted to oppose -- JJ: Who was it? Winston. SA: Henry Winston. JJ: Henry Winston. SA: Yeah. JJ: So he was blinded in the (inaudible)? SA: He lost his eyesight. JJ: He lost his eyesight? SA: Yeah. The people now, from Puerto Rico are there. Oscar Lopez, and people like that who have been terribly -- JJ: Oscar Lopez is a member of the? SA: So-called FLNA. JJ: FLNA? SA: Yeah. JJ: And he’s been in jail for over thirty years? SA: That’s right. JJ: And basically, [02:06:00] there’s no proof that he has done anything except stand up for Puerto Rico, I guess. SA: Yeah. JJ: He believes in that. SA: But he was -- 79 �JJ: He was in his truck. SA: He’s also considered enemy because he had a lot of influence with groups like NCO. He was an organizer for NCO. JJ: Oh. SA: Northwest Community Organization. JJ: He was a paid staff? SA: Yeah, he was paid organizer for NCO. JJ: For the Northwest Community Organization? SA: Correct. Saul Alinsky organization. JJ: Saul Alinsky organization? So I wasn’t aware of that, that he was a member of that. I know that he did something at the University of Illinois. He was in a student group there, I believe. SA: Well, he was not a student there, but he helped organize the student group, (Spanish) [02:06:48], which was basically an organization planning to have Latinos receive scholarships to open the doors so that more Latinos [02:07:00] will enter the University of Illinois. (inaudible) campus at that time, not just the University of Illinois. JJ: (inaudible). SA: So I continued working with them. JJ: (inaudible). SA: I marched for jobs, I marched for -- I take petitions for laws that had to deal with social security, unemployment. We do things, demonstration against abuses of organizations and people. But now, we’re involving occupied US Chicago with 80 �people who are like us and working for getting benefits, recognized in fighting against those people and organizations that try to take all benefits that have been won by struggle, like minimum wage, like social security, like unemployment insurance, you go on and on and on and on. Scholarship for students, [02:08:00] saying that students should not be abused by the loans that they receive. And they had to spend many, many years in debt to get an education for a position. And now what do you see now? Many college students cannot find jobs either, but they’re in debt, thousands and thousands of dollars because the kind of legislation that made possible for banks to get hold of those funds and offer loans to students that they cannot pay for. JJ: Anything else we need to put in there? SA: I think I said it before. We have to stick together. If we want just justice, we got to fight together. Recognize who’s the enemy, and be wise to know who’s your friend and who’s not your friend. [02:09:00] And not be afraid of doing things that you know need to be done because people say it’s dangerous for you. I think if you only think of yourself, nothing’s ever going to change. We have to think for everyone. So that’s why I’m a communist now. Oh my God. He’s always been a communist. Yeah. END OF VIDEO FILE 81 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f91d65c345b36cc8c35e88a72a362124.mp4 90727487e5b06408d1b0a449ee631845 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Sijisfredo Avilés vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Sijisfredo Avilés es el primer Puertorriqueño en Chicago que públicamente opongo el recluto para la guerra de Vietnam en los 1960s. Silenciamiento sirvió 3 años en la cárcel por rechazar inducción en 1968 y mas tarde se hizo mimbré del parte comunista en USA. Nacido en Puerto rico, La familia de Avilés so movió a Chicago en los 1950s, estabilizándose en Chicago Avenue y Noble Avenue, que esta oeste de Ogden Avenue y el centro. Señor Avilés a soportado los pobres, los Latino auto determinados y los derechos humanos. Avilés ha sido un miembro de Latín American Defense Organization (LADO), el Puerto Rican Socialist Party of Chicago (PSP), y el Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center en Chicago. Todos estos grupos han trabajado juntos con los Young Lords. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Guerra de Vietnam, 1961-1975--Insumisos--Estados Unidos Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Aviles_Sijisfredo Title A name given to the resource Sijisfredo Avilés video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Avilés, Sijisfredo Description An account of the resource Sijisfredo Avilés is the first Puerto Rican in Chicago to publicly oppose the Vietnam War draft during the middle 1960s. He quietly served three years in jail for refusing induction in 1968. Born in Puerto Rico, Mr. Avilés’ family moved to Chicago in the early 1950s, settling around Chicago Avenue and Noble Avenue, just west of Ogden Avenue and downtown. Mr. Avilés has been a lifelong advocate for the poor, Latino self-determination, and human rights and worked closely with the Young Lords. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Draft resisters--United States Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/184cd46bad22fec1df4e15199f10809e.pdf f058585efb09a76f2a5f5976b8e165aa PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Wilfredo and Maria Aviles Interviewers: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 9/27/2018 Runtime: 01:13:03 Biography and Description Wilfredo Aviles was Born in Manati, Puerto Rico. He arrived in the US on July 1955 to Chicago, IL at Clark and Division Streets or La Clark Neighborhood. His Parents were Angelina Tirado Aviles & Sixto Aviles, and he has three siblings. He lived in old town/Lincoln Park for about 10 years, then moved to the Lake View area. His work experience included the U.S. Army, and retail in the family owned business, The Gaslight Men's Shop, and eventually became the owner (43 years). He retired in 2008. Wilfredo was also a civic leader. He was the first Latino President of Erie Family Health Center Board (2 years); Treasurer of the Puerto Rican Parade committee (5 years); Puerto Rican Chamber of CommerceTreasurer (5 years); and the Chicago Avenue Business Association-President (5 years). He was a member of the Caballeros de San Juan. During his youth he belonged to one of the many sports clubs which often played baseball in Lincoln Park. A few times members of his group joined with other Puerto Rican youth to protect themselves from roving white ethnic gangs which had existed in Lincoln Park previous to Puerto Ricans arriving there. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: So this is just a test. If you can give me your name, and the date you were born and where you were born? Go ahead. WILFREDO AVILES: JJ: Wilfredo Aviles. April 7, 1945. Thank you. And -- MARIA AVILES: And where were -- JJ: -- where were you born? WA: Manati, Puerto Rico. JJ: Manati? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Let me just see something. (break in audio) JJ: And the day you were born. Go ahead. WA: In English? JJ: In Spanish, English, whatever. WA: Well, I’ll say it, you know -- my name is Wilfredo Aviles. I was born in Manati, Puerto Rico, April 7, 1945. JJ: Okay, Wilfredo, you look at me. And who are your parents? WA: My parents? Sixto Aviles and Angelina Tirado. JJ: [00:01:00] Tirado? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. And how about your brothers and sisters? 1 �WA: No sisters. I have two other brothers besides me, and -- JJ: And their names? WA: [Ruben?] Aviles and Sixto Aviles, Jr. JJ: Okay. And did they come to Chicago too at the same time you came? WA: No. I came to Chicago like six months before they did. JJ: When did you come to Chicago? WA: July of 1954. JJ: July of 1954? Okay. So can you kinda describe what was going on? How old were you when you came? WA: Eight; I was gonna be nine. Actually, yeah, eight. JJ: And what was going on in Puerto Rico then? WA: Actually, I was nine -- JJ: Oh, nine? Okay. WA: -- I meant to say. Yeah, nine, because 54 and 45 [00:02:00] is nine. JJ: Okay. And can you tell me about something in Puerto Rico at the time that you guys could come in? WA: In Puerto Rico? I was in school. I went to grammar school there for up to third grade. And my parents migrated to Chicago, and they sent for me. I came down here, and we lived on Division and Clark. JJ: Division and Clark? WA: Yep, Division and Clark. And -- JJ: Do you know in what house, or...? 2 �WA: Well, we lived at 1320 North Clark across the street from the Windsor Theatre in those days. And then from there, we moved to 1154 North Clark a little bit south of Division Street. JJ: So the Windsor Theatre was, you said, across the street. WA: Right from where I lived, yeah. JJ: What street was that about? WA: Clark Street. JJ: Okay, Clark. [00:03:00] But I thought they just had the Newberry Theater, and then they had the Stranahan -- WA: No, that was out by Chicago Avenue. JJ: Oh, that was -- WA: That was south, yeah. JJ: Okay. But the Windsor was more up north? WA: Just North of Division Street, yeah. JJ: Oh, was it? WA: In 1300 block -- JJ: That was the Windsor Theatre? WA: -- of Clark Street. Windsor, yes. JJ: Okay. And so did you go to that theater, or...? WA: Actually, I went more to the Newberry. (laughs) JJ: Oh, the Newberry instead of at -- WA: I’m sure that I went across the street too, but Newberry was the one that was -- JJ: Better than -- 3 �WA: -- by the post office. JJ: Okay. There was a post office there? WA: Yeah, right next to it. JJ: And so you were eight or nine years old. What was school like in Puerto Rico? Do you remember that, or...? WA: Well, you learn a little English. You learn about pencil, pen, chicken, (laughter) hen -- JJ: Hen, right. WA: -- you know, stuff like that, so you studied a little bit of English. [00:04:00] But I didn’t speak hardly any English when I came, I mean, at all, you know. But then on the other hand, you pick up fast because, you know, you’re around people all the time, and you gotta learn the lingo. And I did, you know? JJ: Okay. And so they told you you had to come over here, but you wanted to come ’cause your parents are here. WA: Sure, yeah. I mean, the -- JJ: You weren’t afraid or anything? WA: Nope. JJ: And -- WA: Never been afraid. (laughs) JJ: Okay. So you came, and then you grew up in this place. WA: I grew up. I went to William B. Ogden School on Oak Street between Dearborn and State, which is a very, you know, highly upper -- JJ: Upper class area. 4 �WA: -- class area, yeah. JJ: So it was a good school? WA: Oh, yeah. JJ: And did you feel important [00:05:00] because it’s upper class? WA: Well, I can’t complain about how fast I learned. I mean, I learned a lot of things, you know. We didn’t have, per se, big Latino students at that time. It was very few. JJ: Oh, they didn’t have that many? WA: Very few, yes. JJ: In ’54? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. But the neighborhood -- there was some Latinos, no, or...? WA: Not around there. JJ: Not around Oakland? WA: They were mainly, like I said, you know, by Division. Most people lived in the South Side of Chicago at that time, most of the -- JJ: But where did they live? WA: -- Puerto Ricans and the, you know... JJ: Where did they live? WA: South of Chicago Avenue, you know, and they lived west by the Humboldt Park - JJ: At that time? WA: -- area, you know? 5 �JJ: By -- WA: Yeah, there were a few Latinos in that -- JJ: But they were living at that time? ’Cause there used to be a neighborhood there, no? WA: Yeah, but -- JJ: At Clark or something? Do you know about that? WA: Well, there was a Latino [00:06:00] group, but believe it or not, they were more from my family from Manati. They were by Diversey and Clark Street. JJ: By Diversey and Clark? WA: Yeah. JJ: Oh, from your family. Or was it -- WA: Well, not my family, but friends and some relatives. JJ: By Diversey and Clark, there was a lot of Latinos and Puerto Ricans? Okay. WA: Latinos, yes, at 2835 North Clark. It was a whole Puerto Rican building there. JJ: Twenty-eight -- WA: Everybody was -- yeah, 2830-- JJ: Is that in [Westchester?] too or no? WA: Huh? JJ: Oh, no, that’s on Diversey. WA: Yeah, 2835 North Clark. JJ: And this is 1954? WA: Yep. JJ: (Spanish)? [00:06:32] 6 �WA: (Spanish) [00:06:34] -- to be honest, my uncles, my father’s brothers, and my cousins, you know -- JJ: That’s where they lived? WA: Yeah. JJ: Were there any stores around there? WA: There’s some stores vaguely, I remember, I mean, like Latino stores. The only Latino store that [00:07:00] was on Clark Street was [Mario Rivera?]. JJ: Mario Rivera. I remember that. WA: Okay. Mario Rivera was right across the street also by the Windsor Theatre, the 1300 block on Clark Street. JJ: Because he had -- WA: He had a grocery store. JJ: He had a grocery store. I know he had (Spanish) [00:07:20] on Clark. Do you remember that one? WA: I remember Spanish American food. JJ: His Spanish American food, yeah. I remember when he [brought it?] on the radio one time. WA: Yeah, that was -- JJ: What radio station was that? Do you remember, or...? WA: In those days? JJ: Is it -- WA: Man, I don’t know. Pelencho, maybe? JJ: Pelencho or Chapa, all that -- 7 �WA: Pelencho, yeah. JJ: Pelencho. WA: And then (Spanish) [00:07:42] also was a local duo that -- Raul Cardona was another radio announcer, you know, so there was not a lot. And there were a [00:08:00] lot of Hispanics where my grandmother used to live and my aunts. They’re from -- JJ: They lived where, on Diversey? WA: No, they lived on Fifth Avenue by Harrison Street in the South Side up there. JJ: Oh, on the west side. WA: West, yes. JJ: Or Southwest. WA: Southwest, yep. They had -- JJ: Okay. That’s where your grandmother lived? WA: Yeah, there were Latinos around there too. JJ: So at Madison, some of them had -- WA: Yeah, south of Madison. JJ: Yeah, right around there? WA: Yeah. Now, you got the Eisenhower running through 290. (laughs) JJ: Right. At that time -- WA: In that time, the -- JJ: So were you there, do you remember, before the Eisenhower was built? WA: No, it wasn’t built yet when -- JJ: Oh, it wasn’t built yet. 8 �WA: -- I was here before, yeah. JJ: So where the Eisenhower was, there were Puerto Ricans? WA: Well, there was a highway there now, but I don’t remember seeing -- JJ: But Harrison was there? WA: Yeah, the streets were -- JJ: And your grandmother was there? WA: Yeah, Fifth Avenue was my grandmother -- JJ: [00:09:00] Did you say your grandmother’s name? Did you give me her name yet or no? WA: I didn’t give you my grandmother’s name. JJ: Can we get her name? It’s up to you. WA: It’s from my mother’s side. Actually, you know, it was a stepmother, so that was the grandmother that I’m talking about. But my grandmother from my father’s side -- [Agracia Ramon?]. JJ: Agracia Ramon, okay. So both of your brothers are here now too, right, at the same time? WA: Ruben and Sixto? They came down, yeah. JJ: In ’54? WA: No, they came in ’55. JJ: Fifty-five? WA: Yeah. JJ: Was there anyone here before ’55 from the family? WA: From my family? 9 �JJ: Yeah. WA: No, just -- JJ: They all came in ’55? WA: No. Fifty-four was my father, and then a couple of months later, I came. JJ: Okay. And your father came for what reason? WA: Looking for a better [00:10:00] way of living; a better life for themselves and for us both. I’m glad that I came to United States. (laughs) JJ: Mm-hmm. So what do you remember by the Windsor, growing up there? WA: Oh, not much ’cause we only spent about -- I want to say in ’57, we moved to 1308 North Cleveland, okay? And Cabrini Green was not there yet. This is before Cabrini Green was built on Division Street by the projects there, what they used to call them. And we lived a couple of blocks north of there on Cleveland Avenue. JJ: Who lived there at that time? WA: (Spanish). [00:10:50] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:10:51] WA: Yeah, and two Spanish families. You remember Nestor Hernandez? JJ: Yeah, I know Nestor. WA: Nestor was across [00:11:00] the street from me. He lived at 1309; I lived 1308. That’s how it was, and then also Hector Molina. JJ: Oh, you knew Hector Molina? WA: Yeah, tall guy. JJ: That’s a tall guy. 10 �WA: They lived on Evergreen. JJ: (Spanish). [00:11:17] WA: Yeah, on Evergreen, so that’s our neighborhood in the ’57 era. And that one -- JJ: So any problems with the Italians? WA: No, we’re family. Nobody came and messed around, and plus the Italians had the dogs and everything. (laughter) Nobody came to mess around there. People there in those days -- everybody knew each other. JJ: [Like a family?]. WA: Everybody sat outside. It didn’t matter; Puerto Rican, Italian, whatever. But Spanish families were the first ones in there. And then on North Avenue and Cleveland, my (Spanish) [00:11:57], Sebastian [Ramiri?] -- JJ: [00:12:00] Oh, Sebastian. WA: [Sebby?] lived on North Avenue in there with his parents in the house and -- JJ: So that’s the one that used to box? WA: Yeah, he used to box. JJ: So he boxed for -- was it CYO, or...? WA: CYO, yeah. JJ: And were they doing any work in the neighborhood, or...? WA: No. I mean -- JJ: I mean, I didn’t -- WA: -- we played ball. We had teams, YMCA. We went to [Action?] YMCA. That’s where we belonged when we did our stuff, and we played baseball, mainly, you know, softball. And it was -- 11 �JJ: So you had a team? WA: Yeah. JJ: What was the name of your team? WA: Well, we were, at first, the Flaming Arrows. JJ: Okay. You were in the Flaming Arrows, huh? WA: Yep, the Flaming Arrows. The best team they had (laughter) because I made sure they practiced and -- JJ: You mean you were the coach for -- WA: I was the captain of the team, yeah, and I -- JJ: So did you get voted in? [00:13:00] How’d you get that? WA: No. I was a little bit more knowledgeable in that area than other people and -- JJ: In the sports thing? WA: Mm-hmm. JJ: And so you became the captain of the Flaming Arrows. And Sebastian was part of that team? WA: No, Sebastian was with the -- actually, he hung out more with the Italians, believe it or not. JJ: Oh, he did? WA: Yeah, he was more with the Italian guys, you know. The Latinos, most of us, were -- well, Frank was Italian, Frank [Regio?]. JJ: Frank Regio, yeah. [I know him?]. WA: Yeah, but you know, he’d speak Spanish like Puerto Rican and he spoke Italian too, you know. And he lived across the street from me too. Actually, Nestor and 12 �him lived in the same building, so that’s how it was on Cleveland. And then in January of ’61, I graduated [00:14:00] from grammar school, eighth grade, and went to George Manierre. JJ: Oh, you went to Manierre. WA: After Ogden, I went to George Manierre School, yeah. And then from there, I graduated -- JJ: What was Manierre like at that time? WA: It was mixed. There were a lot of Latinos ’cause I remember we used to get people that lived a little bit south of us from Division Street and around Hill Street, I think it was; the little street on the subway, I think. And the church we went to was St. Joseph, I think it is. JJ: St. Joseph? WA: The one right on the corner almost by -- this is the church that we used to go to, most of us. JJ: So was there a thing for Puerto Ricans at St. Joseph, or...? WA: They had Spanish masses. JJ: There at that time? WA: Yeah, they had Spanish masses in those days, and we went there. We -- JJ: Any activities for Spanish people? WA: Well, I think most people kept to themselves more than anything, to be honest, about it even though they knew each other. And [00:15:00] when they met, and there was some kind of a dance or something, everybody would know about it or 13 �something, you know. But one thing about it is friends. There were no gangs laying around, I mean, at least that we didn’t know. JJ: [Moving to the?] gangs later -- but you said everybody stayed to the -- WA: Yeah, one thing about my neighborhood -- it was a clean neighborhood. It was no garbage laying around. People were clean. That’s the way it was. JJ: So everybody took care of their own apartment and their own houses. WA: Yep, everybody took care of it. JJ: And everybody got along. You said they hung out on the porches. WA: We did have block parties, you know, for the block that we were in, you know, but that was, you know, just for the block party. And we used to go to festivities at Cabrini Green when, you know, the church and all the staff had festivities up there, [00:16:00] so... JJ: So Cabrini Green was all Black at that time, or...? WA: No, it had a lot of Latinos in there too. [Migos?] Claudio lived there with his whole family. JJ: Oh, Migos Claudio [lived there?]? WA: Jose [Reyes?] lived there with his family. JJ: Toothpick? (laughs) WA: Toothpick’s brother, Jose, yeah. Well, Toothpick too because Toothpick was there. They all lived together, and the two sisters. They all lived in Cabrini Green. A lot of Puerto Ricans lived in Cabrini Green. MA: A lot of [Puerto Ricans too?]. JJ: A lot of Puerto Ricans lived in Cabrini Green? 14 �WA: Yes. JJ: And this was in what year? WA: Oh, now, we went to the -- JJ: And what do you -- WA: Fifty-seven -- JJ: Fifty-seven. WA: -- to the ’60s, more or less. JJ: When a lot of Puerto Ricans were living in Cabrini Green? WA: Oh, yes. JJ: But what part of Cabrini, by Division? WA: By Division, yeah -- JJ: The white projects? WA: -- and Orleans. JJ: They called it the white projects or something like that? WA: I don’t know if they called it the white projects, but -- JJ: Okay, Division and Orleans. I don’t want to put words in your, you know... WA: Well, because we didn’t call it the [00:17:00] white -- JJ: Okay, I asked that -- WA: I just know that it was Cabrini Green, and it was made for people that were underserved a little bit, you know, families that didn’t make enough money. And they had to go to those places and get an apartment that they didn’t have to pay as much. JJ: And then -- 15 �WA: I graduated from Walter High School in January of 1961. JJ: But you went to Manierre. To eighth grade, or...? WA: To eighth grade, yeah. I was about in fifth or sixth grade when I went to Manierre. JJ: And so you said Manierre was okay, and it was mixed? WA: Yeah, it was mixed. JJ: No fighting, none of that at all? WA: It was the Italian -- JJ: No gangs, or...? WA: That’s the thing. In the old days when we’d fight, you know, you did something to me -- if I’d beat you up, we’d shake hands, and it was over. There was no holding any grudges. There was no grudges at all, you know, and [00:18:00] nobody got into the fight. It was just you and whoever the guy was, and I grew up like that. We didn’t have 10 guys jumping on one guy. No, that came later on, but -- JJ: So that was respectful -- WA: Yeah, it was a handshake after the fight. JJ: And it was just people [getting up to something?]? WA: Yeah, that’s the way it was. JJ: Okay. So what else do you remember about Manierre? WA: No, that’s about it. A couple of girls had fights, you know. JJ: That’s the -- 16 �WA: But here, again, it’s one-on-one. It’s no bunch of people fighting, you know, jumping in. JJ: A couple of girls, one-on-one, were fighting over [you?]? WA: Yep. They’d take off their bras, and some of them -- JJ: Oh, the girls would fight each other. WA: Yeah, and the guys just enjoyed the fight. We would wait and watch. [00:19:00] (laughter) Those days were not like today. You didn’t have people coming with a knife or a gun. None of that stuff existed, you know? The worst thing you ever saw was somebody took a bat, and that’s the worst weapon anybody ever did in those days, you know, so... JJ: I know that here, we were a little different, but I always know you guys were more into sports, you said, as opposed to -- WA: Yeah, we were about sports. Actually, at the Action YMCA, we had basketball. We had dodgeball. We had the baseball teams, you know, and we competed with each other, you know. But everything was done -- you know, even if you push me or something, I’ll push you back, and that’s [00:20:00] it, you know? And there was no, “Yo, I’m gonna beat you up,” or something. JJ: But it got a little rough around the edges, though, sometimes. WA: Oh, yeah, if it was something rough. JJ: Because, I mean, in some neighborhoods, people don’t even push each other. WA: No, they didn’t. JJ: So it was a little -- was it getting rough? When did it start turning rough? 17 �WA: Not during the grammar school days. Grammar school was not rough. It started from the high school area. JJ: In the high school era? WA: When you got into high school, then you had Walter, for instance, you know, which is Lincoln Park West right now. But in those days, we were known as the school that had every nationality you can think of. I mean, you name the nationality, we had it. JJ: At Walter? WA: Yeah. [00:21:00] You know, but the good thing about the Latinos -- we were the neutral group. And the reason we were neutral is because the whites didn’t like the Black, and the Blacks didn’t like the whites, and we like everybody. (laughter) So if they had a fight or something, they’d run away -- let’s say we’re gonna fight the Blacks. Okay, the whites will come. If we’re gonna fight the whites, the Blacks will come and help us, you know? But like I said, again, you didn’t have the guns or anything like that. That’s the good thing about it. And usually, it used to be -- JJ: And what did they fight about, the Blacks and the whites? WA: Nothing, because people are like that, I guess. You know, some people don’t like Black, and some people don’t like white. And some people don’t like Latinos, so... JJ: So some people didn’t like each other because of -- WA: Their race, maybe. JJ: Their race? 18 �WA: Yeah. Mainly, it was the race issue, but [00:22:00] I don’t know. I guess -- JJ: But that’s why they fought? They didn’t fight over girls or anything like that, or...? WA: Not to my knowledge. Did they fight over girls? Sorry, my -- JJ: About race, or...? WA: Yeah, I think somebody had, you know, some -- JJ: So can you give me an example of when they said something about race? Can you talk about -- WA: A Black person can call another Black person a nigger, but a white person cannot call a Black person a nigger, you know, so they would say that. Or the Italians were dagos, so they didn’t like being called dagos. You know, that's the - JJ: So people used words like dago and spic -- WA: Yeah, spic -- JJ: -- and stuff like that? WA: Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, that was -- JJ: And they would fight? WA: Yeah, ’cause if I’m Puerto Rican and you’re Puerto Rican, and I call you spic, well, you’re not gonna do nothing. But see, if a white person calls you a spic, or a Black guy, you know, you might wanna [00:23:00] do something about it. JJ: So was there any certain parts of the neighborhood you couldn’t go to? WA: Not in my time. JJ: No? WA: We could go anywhere. 19 �JJ: Was there any certain parts of the neighborhood that you had fights in? WA: No, because -- JJ: And let me give you a good example. At North Avenue Beach, we had a baseball game -- WA: There was a baseball game that we had, and we played baseball in Lincoln Park. And somebody came in. We had these white guys come in, and they took us out of our diamond. We were already there first. At that time, you had no appointments. If the diamond’s empty, you -- and we used to practice. We had both teams, and we would practice. And the only experience I ever had was these white guys, which were already adults, most of them, college kids or something. You know, we were still high school, a little smaller, but we were not afraid either. [00:24:00] So, you know, they came in, and Darwin Fuentes, another (Spanish) [00:24:05] of mine -- I don’t know if you know Darwin. JJ: Oh, Darwin. WA: Yeah, he has a shop -- JJ: He was a business guy. WA: He had a -- JJ: He had a business. WA: -- clothing store on Broadway, yeah. JJ: Clothing store on Broadway, uh-huh. WA: And he used to work for Herb’s Men’s Shop on North Avenue and Mohawk, the little, nice store on North Avenue. And he doesn’t keep quiet, so you know, he right away got smart with one of those guys. And we see they're bigger than we 20 �are, so you know, we’re not gonna attack, you know, and get beat up for no reason. So the funny thing is that in those days, we had the Braves baseball team, and these were adults. They were not kids, you know. They had their own kids, you know? And they saw what was happening, and [00:25:00] right away, they told one guy a couple of bad words, and the guy punched him in the face. And he went down, and he got up again and said, “You guys --” he punched him again, and he cut him a little bit. So we grabbed Darwin and pulled him to the side, and said, “Look, leave it alone. You know, they’re bigger than we are, and you know, they want it. Let them have their diamond.” But all the adults were practicing also, the baseball team. They came over, and they started the rumble. Those guys ran across Lakeshore Drive. They’d rather get hit by a car than fight the guy -JJ: Running on Lakeshore Drive? WA: Yeah, right inside Lincoln Park. But they jumped over the fence and over Lakeshore Drive, and that was the only big fight I ever really -- JJ: And then the -- WA: -- participated in that was something like that. But they’re the ones that started it. I mean, we were there already, and we were younger kids. JJ: Now, I thought that you were involved with the Black Eagles. WA: [00:26:00] Well, I wasn’t that involved with the Black Eagles. When [Louis Sias?] used to be the president of the Black Eagles, and the Flaming Arrows broke up when the Paragons came from New York. JJ: Paragons came from New York? 21 �WA: Yeah. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. WA: Yeah, they came from New York, and these were wild guys, you know. MA: Don’t mention them. WA: Why? MA: Don’t mention them. WA: So anyway, these guys came, and they started -- you know, they thought they were bad, I guess, you know, being from New York or something, and they brought bad habits with them. And some of the guys -- we broke up and -- JJ: When you say bad habit, what do you mean? WA: The weed. I mean, I personally didn’t -- JJ: Didn’t do -- WA: I didn’t smoke or drink or anything like that. JJ: -- drugs or something like that? WA: Yeah, they -- JJ: I remember that, [when they’d come?], yeah. WA: Yeah, so you know, [00:27:00] they were into the gangs and stuff like that, you know. And so we had broken up the Flaming Arrows, but what happened is that some of the guys went to the Eagles. Some guys went to the Paragons, you know, and that’s how the thing started, so... JJ: But I thought that you had become president for a while of the Black Eagles, no? WA: No. JJ: Oh, never? Okay. 22 �WA: No. I, again, kept, you know, the team, though, the baseball team, ’cause that’s the only time they started winning baseball games. (laughs) I was always the -- JJ: But you were the captain of the -- WA: But I had a voice, and I would, you know, put in my two cents. If I’d see something that wasn’t right, I’d put in my two cents and I’d say, “No, that’s not how things are.” But outside of that, hey, listen, I graduated and thank God I went to the armed forces in ’65. I got drafted. JJ: So tell me about that. Tell me about the armed forces. WA: Well, I got drafted in ’65. I was one of the last group, I think, that got drafted during Vietnam, [00:28:00] and I went to Fort Knox for basic. September 1965, I got drafted, and we took basic at Fort Knox. And then I took advanced -- JJ: What’s that like? I don’t know what that is. WA: Well, you learn how to shoot the rifle. You learn how to fight, you know, with the [bungee?] -- JJ: Physical? WA: No, no fists. (laughs) They got the -- JJ: Oh, the rifle, okay. WA: -- rifle that’s set, you know, so stuff like that and shooting at a target, you know. That’s what I learned there, and you know, a little bit of self-defense, and then I went to advanced training in Fort Bliss, Texas. And in Fort Bliss, Texas, I wound up with 16B20 MOS, and that was artillery. So I finished my artillery. I [00:29:00] made sergeant in 16 months. JJ: [Congratulations?]. That’s awesome. 23 �WA: And I never went to Vietnam either, so I was lucky. I worked with the Nike Hercules. That was my M1, and I was assigned to the warhead of the Nike Hercules. It’s only eight of us that was in that group. We had no back check. We didn’t belong to the 333rd Artillery. This is a individual group, so you know, I was lucky. You know, I fell in the right places, you know, and I had good grades, I guess, when they took my test. (laughs) So that kinda helped me with that, you know, but as far as hurting somebody just for the heck of it, I would never do that. I mean, I have my -- but like I said, again, in those days, we had our own fights. But we shook hands at the end of the fight, and it was over. JJ: So you mentioned [00:30:00] Action YMCA. WA: Action, yeah. JJ: What do you remember from that? WA: Oh, that’s where we did all our sports; swimming, everything. Action was the home for -- after school, you know, we’d go there. In the summer, we had, like I said, the baseball teams. You know, we’d never played soccer, but we’d play -- JJ: So who else was in the baseball team? What are their teams? WA: Well, the Paragons was a team at that time. The Black Eagles were a team. In the days before the Paragons came, we had the Flaming Arrows, and we had the Black Eagles. What other team? I think maybe the [Youngers?] might have been around -- JJ: Yeah, the Youngers were around [back then?]. WA: -- at that time. I think they were in there too. JJ: So you -- 24 �WA: Like I said, they were younger kids. JJ: Right, they were younger back then. WA: Yeah, but the older guys -- that’s what we did, mainly. JJ: But some of these people turned into gangs later. [00:31:00] Didn’t they turn into gangs, some of them, the young boys or any of the...? WA: Well -- JJ: And the Paragons turned more into gangs, huh? WA: Well, yeah, but you see what happens. A lot of them are dead doing their own things, you know, but -- JJ: Weeds and drugs and stuff like that? WA: Yeah. You live the life, you -- JJ: So why do you think they got that deep involved? I mean, you were there. Why do you think they went from, you know, playing sports to -- WA: Doing those other things? JJ: Yeah, doing those other things. WA: Well, by that time, I was already out of there. JJ: Oh, you was out there? WA: Out of the neighborhood. I was -- JJ: So you don’t remember? Okay. WA: I always grew up, I’ll be honest, in a nice neighborhood. I never lived in a neighborhood that was bad, so I got to give you that. That’s one thing I always deal with myself. Since I have my kids now, they can’t say they live in a bad 25 �neighborhood. We always lived in a good neighborhood, had a home, you know, so... JJ: And who did -- WA: We -- JJ: -- that? Who made sure that you did that, [00:32:00] you or her? WA: My father. If I wasn’t home by eight o’clock at night, I got whipped, so -- JJ: When you say whipped, what do you mean? How did he whip you? WA: With the belt. JJ: Oh, it was a belt. WA: Hell, yeah. He’d say I was supposed to be here at 7:30, not eight o’clock. JJ: Was that normal? ’Cause today, that’s (inaudible). WA: Today, the kids come home at 12:00 midnight, but that’s why that you gotta -- JJ: But when you grew up, they -- WA: Oh, my mom and dad were strict. And in my house, not one guy gets whipped. It’s three of us, and my father whipped all three. Even though the other two [had nothing to say?], he said, “That’s in case you guys want to laugh about it,” you know, so that’s the way he was. That was good ’cause Sixto, second after me, never cried. And I always used to tell him -- ’cause my dad touched me one time with the belt, and I’m screaming. But Sixto would just [00:33:00] take it. He was very hard. He would not cry, and I would say, “Man, just cry.” But Ruben and I would start crying. One hit, and I’m crying, you know, so you don’t get -- JJ: To get him to stop? WA: Yeah. 26 �JJ: But he wasn’t -- WA: No, he just did it because, hey, what he says -- in those days, you respect your parents. I mean, you know, you don’t just tell your parents this or that in those days. You know, I never swear. I even tell my kids, “You never hear me swear, but you swear.” That’s the way it is, but that’s the way they come up. But, you know, that’s -- JJ: What about church and that? Where did you guys go to church at? WA: We went to Holy Name. I made my first communion -- JJ: Holy Name Cathedral? WA: -- in Holy Name Cathedral, yeah. I made my first communion there, and I did my -- the one that comes after the... MA: Confirmation. WA: Confirmation, [00:34:00] also. I did my confirmation at Holy Name -- JJ: At Holy Name? WA: -- Cathedral, yeah. JJ: So -- WA: So Holy Name. St. Joseph was also -- JJ: Were there Spanish people there at Holy Name? WA: Yeah, sure, there were Spanish. JJ: So there was -- WA: I went to the cathedral in my days in Ogden School ’cause it’s Ogden and State, and the cathedral was on Chicago Avenue and State. JJ: So you went to public school, and then you went to Catholic church? 27 �WA: Catechism. JJ: Catechism. WA: I had catechism. Yeah, that’s where I went to -- [well, also?] the Lawson YMCA on Chicago Avenue, you know. We went there also. I was in the swimming team there too. We had -- JJ: Were there other Spanish people there? WA: Yeah. We had really -- JJ: That’s awesome. But [what was the?] year? WA: Huh? JJ: What year was that? WA: This is ’55, ’56, yeah. JJ: And the whole neighborhood was Latino? WA: Yeah, mm-hmm. And also, like I said, we went to [00:35:00] St. Joseph -- JJ: On [Clark?]? WA: -- in Orleans, yeah. They had Spanish masses there, yeah. JJ: Were there any activities? Did anybody organize anything? WA: Not too many functions. Most of the activities was at St. Michael’s on Cleveland and North Avenue. JJ: What kind of activities did they -- WA: Everything. My wife and I, when we were high school friends, went to dance there. All the guys used to go dance there. I don’t know if you remember Jose Rodrigeuz, Joseito. JJ: Oh, Jose? 28 �WA: Yeah, that’s the -- JJ: Actually, he’s my third cousin. WA: Is he really? Okay. And his brother, you know, passed away. Was it Manny? JJ: Carmero. WA: Carmero. JJ: Carmero. WA: Carmero used to be a teacher at Roberto Clemente, and his wife. So we were the dancers. We were the guys that knew [00:36:00] all the steps with -- JJ: Oh, you were a dancer [back then?], huh? WA: We used to practice, yeah. (laughs) JJ: But did you dance Spanish or English? WA: Spanish, mainly. That’s what it was ’cause that’s where you do some nice steps, you know. English is, you know... JJ: And Jose danced particularly good too, yeah? WA: Oh, hell yeah. All of us were. Carmero -- JJ: [All of you?] too, huh? WA: We used to practice together. We used to practice dancing, you know, so -- JJ: Oh, the cha-cha-cha and -- WA: -- all the girls would want to dance with us. (laughs) JJ: The cha-cha-cha, [you did also?]? WA: Yep, I danced everything. I used to be good. I still got a little swing. JJ: (Spanish) [00:36:36] had a lot of dances. WA: Oh, we had a lot of dances there. And then also, we had it -- 29 �MA: At (Spanish). [00:36:41] WA: (Spanish) [00:36:42] had one, the one on Clark and Southport where it comes by Wrigley Field. JJ: Oh, at Wrigley Field. WA: Yeah, there used to be that -- JJ: So they had dances? WA: -- (Spanish). [00:36:53] JJ: Oh, (Spanish) [00:36:55], I see. WA: (Spanish) [00:36:56] used to be there. JJ: That’s the best one. WA: I played ball for the (Spanish). [00:37:00] JJ: Oh, you did? WA: In the old days, yeah. And I played for (Spanish) [00:37:03] at St. Michael’s. JJ: Oh, you played at St. Michael’s too for (Spanish) -- [00:37:07] WA: Yep, and then I played for the Puerto Rican Parade. I played for the -- what was those [things that?] -- JJ: What did you play? WA: Third base. JJ: Third base, [that’s the one?]? WA: Third base, yeah, the hot corner. (laughs) Good reflexes. JJ: Actually, the ball goes higher than third base. That’s the way they are. WA: Yeah, that’s -- JJ: You have to be good to play that. 30 �WA: It’s a basic corner. JJ: Yeah, basic corner. (laughs) So you played a lot of sports? WA: I was into sports, yeah. I was very athletic in my young age. That’s why my kids -- whatever kinda sport they wanna play, I tell ’em, “When you go to high school, whatever sport they have, get in it. Join. You know, try to play.” JJ: Can you describe, because somebody that’s never been there at that time -[00:38:00] what were the games like? I mean, if you went to the game -- I remember we went and [saw pasteles?] and stuff like that, so that was our thing. But other people were -- I heard noises and people singing, I mean, chants and [other things?]. [00:38:16] I mean, what do you remember? WA: Well, we had a good team, so people used to like us. I mean, a lot of people went to see the games there. They were always pulling for us. Whenever we played our games, they pulled for us, yeah. JJ: So what do you mean, they pulled for you? WA: I mean, you know, they’d cheer us more than the other -- we had a good fan, you can say -- JJ: Fans? WA: Yeah, we had a lot of fans. JJ: Were there a lot of families that came, or...? WA: Yeah, families always were there. My wife and my kids would come to see me play ball, you know. Sometimes they would walk around by North Avenue Beach and that ’cause we used to play ball [00:39:00] always at Lincoln Park. And then 31 �we’d play at Humboldt Park. You know, we also played there. I played organized leagues, you know. JJ: So you played at Humboldt Park and Lincoln Park. And then -- WA: I played at a lot of parks. JJ: Yeah. Your wife went to the beach while you guys played? WA: Well, they’d walk around the park if we had the kids and that, but you know, she would go and stay there or walk around. JJ: So were there a lot of Spanish people at that time, then? WA: Yeah, a lot of Spanish people. JJ: What does that mean? WA: A lot. At that time, we already had, at Clemente, Puerto Rican. I had Puerto Rican friends that were policemens already, you know, and a lot of the guys that I grew up with are policemens and detectives and what have you, you know, so... JJ: Some of the guys from the Flaming Arrows -- were they policemen or -- WA: Yeah, Frank Regio. JJ: Frank Regio? WA: He’s the sergeant in the police department. He retired as a sergeant down there. JJ: Who else from the neighborhood was a policeman? MA: Louis. WA: There’s so many, and I can’t -- MA: [00:40:00] Louis Sias. WA: Well, Louis Sias, yeah. He was a policeman -- JJ: Oh, Louis Sias? 32 �WA: -- too, yeah, Louis. MA: And Pete Rivera. WA: Huh? MA: Pete Rivera. WA: Oh, Pete Rivera. (Spanish), [00:40:08] yeah. JJ: Oh, yeah, [that’s the?] -- WA: (Spanish), [00:40:10] we used to call him. (laughs) JJ: I was gonna interview him. WA: Pete? Yeah, he was one of the -- MA: Down at the -- WA: -- counselors in that time. He was one of the counselors for the Latinos and stuff like that. MA: Helped them out with everything. WA: Helped the kids, you know. He was involved with all the kids. JJ: You mean with the YMCA? WA: Yeah, The Y and everything. JJ: He did that? Okay. WA: He’s always been involved with us. That’s, you know, always -- I don’t know. My thing is if you do the right thing, things good are gonna happen. That’s the way it is. If you’re doing the best thing, the best things are gonna happen, you know, so that’s... JJ: So you would tell people to do that, or that’s just -- WA: Sure, I would. 33 �JJ: -- the way you do [everything like that?]? WA: Yeah, I would tell ’em that. [00:41:00] You know, it’s like I do with my grandkids right now. You know, I tell ’em, “This is this, and this is that.” And you can only tell ’em. You know, like they say, when the kids are out, you don’t know what the heck they’re doing. You only know when you’re watching them, and that’s it. But if you show good morals -- JJ: Good morals, uh-huh. WA: -- they’ll come up with good morals. That’s the way to -- JJ: What other things do you try to tell the grandkids? WA: Study; go to school. Don’t lie ’cause lying is the worst thing you do. Once you become a liar, that’s it. People don’t believe you for anything. Be responsible. Be motivated. Always, you know, move yourself and move others with you. You know, that’s what you gotta teach ’em. Those are the things that you teach your kids right off the bat ’cause there’s three things I live by. It’s responsible ’cause [00:42:00] when I had to be at work at nine o’clock in the morning, I was there at a quarter to 9:00 ’cause if you get there at 9:00, you’re late. That’s what I tell my kids. So I got there a quarter to 9:00 so I knew that I was not late. Okay, that’s responsibility. Honesty. A guy left 10 dollars on the table? He’ll come back, and the 10 dollars will still be there. That’s another thing that I always say, you know, and then don’t lie ’cause those three things are the ones that are part of, you know, doing things the right way. JJ: Did you learn that in school? Where’d you learn that at? 34 �WA: I learned that in school. I learned how to be a businessman at Walter High School ’cause in the old days, you went to high school. And if you paid attention and did things the right way, you gonna learn to do things. And I always wanted to be a businessman. And when I went to [00:43:00] Walter, they had how, you know, to be self-employed and have your own business, and how to run a business. I learned that in high school. JJ: And they had business classes, or...? WA: They had a business class, and then I had my -- one class was in the classroom, and the other class was with a job. I worked, so I went and I practiced work while I was learning. So I was selling when I was in high school. Already, I had a job at work. When I finished high school -- JJ: And what were you selling? You already had a job. WA: I was selling -- JJ: Selling what? I mean -- WA: I was a salesman. You know, what I had, mainly, is clothing and jewelry, and I learned, you know, how to promote a sale, you know. JJ: How did you get the job of selling? WA: Well, you have to get a job in order to -- JJ: Oh, to be a part of that program? WA: ’Cause one half of the credit is [00:44:00] on job training, and the other half is in the room. The teacher would test you in this and that, and you learned how to promote a sale. You know, let’s say you would come in the store. You want to buy a suit. 35 �JJ: Oh, man, don’t get that on tape. WA: And I look at you, and I already know what size you -- JJ: Don’t put that on the tape. (laughter) WA: He owes me a suit. JJ: “That guy owes me a suit!” WA: Yeah. And, you know, I always told my guys at work, “When a customer comes in, two things you don’t do is don’t ask him what color he wants, and don’t ask him what size. ‘Cause when you [tell him the things?], you take the tape measure to his waist, and now you know what he is.” You know, if you come in and you say, “I want a shirt,” my salesman will say to you, “Well, what size do you need?” See, you don’t have to know. You should measure that person. Let ’em know you know what you’re doing, okay? [00:45:00] So I tell ’em, “You measure the person, and then you say, ‘Okay, here’s what I have in your size, all this here.’ Don’t say, ‘What color do you need,’ ’cause if he asks you for a royal blue, and you don’t have it, you lost the sale already without starting the sale. But if you show him shirts, he’ll see a bunch of colors. ‘Oh, yeah, I like this one. I like that one.’ Let him be the guy who picks the stuff, you know? You just show him, ‘Here’s what I got in your size.’” And, you know, instead of some guys -they’re 34 waist, and God forbid you give them a 36 because I see a lot of guys come in and tell me, “Oh, yeah, I’m 32.” You say, “Okay, no problem.” So I will just give them a [purple?] and say, “Here, try this one on and see how it fits.” “Oh, yeah, this fits nice.” “Oh, okay. You want me to measure the length for you?” 36 �JJ: “You’re a 38.” (laughter) WA: ’Cause that’s the way it is, you know? I knew. I can look at you, and I know what size you wear in a suit, you know, but that was my business. [00:46:00] That’s what I learned. I can sell ice to an Eskimo. That’s the way it is. (laughter) JJ: But you learned that in Walter. You didn’t learn that -- WA: At Walter. JJ: -- from your family? WA: No. JJ: That’s the -- WA: I learned at Walter the underground -- in other words, the knowledge for it. But on the job is where I learned the real thing: what’s going on and how you gotta do things like that. JJ: So Walter High School was pretty good at that time? WA: Sure. I had printing shop. I’d read backwards because of going to printing shop. I had wood shop. I used to make a lamp, you know, out of wood and all that, the base and the legs and everything else. There were a lot of things when I was at Walter. I took a lot of shop classes, so it’s why I’m handy. When I do something at the house, I [00:47:00] know how to take care of it. You know, I don’t have to get men to come and do it. I do it myself. JJ: So they had a lot of trade? WA: Yeah. JJ: And you tried to -- WA: It wasn’t a trade school, but they had a lot of -- 37 �JJ: They had a lot of [elective work?]? WA: -- things you could learn. If you want to be a mechanic, you have to go to Tuley. JJ: Oh, Tuley had mechanics [courses?]. WA: Tuley had the mechanics, yeah. They had -- JJ: What years was this? So the schools were -- WA: This was in the -- MA: Sixties. WA: -- early ’60s. JJ: Early ’60s from -- WA: Yeah, from ’60, ’61, so -- JJ: Tuley had mechanic shop, and Walter had print shop and -- WA: Yeah, we had the -- JJ: -- business? WA: -- print shop. Yeah, we had all that stuff. JJ: And home ec? WA: Business courses, typing. I’d type. I used to do all that stuff, yeah. I also did mechanical drawing; could’ve been an architect. JJ: So how far did you go into Walter? WA: All the way. I graduated. JJ: You graduated? WA: Yeah. JJ: So other people from the Flaming Arrows -- where did they graduate? WA: Well, the ones who did was from Walter, maybe. 38 �JJ: The ones -- WA: Some from Wells High School, [00:48:00] you know, but the ones that didn’t graduate -- JJ: But when you look at the Flaming Arrows, you’re looking mainly at the sports team, right? WA: Well, that’s what we liked to do. That’s what we had. We were not into fighting or smoking or drinking. That’s not what we did. We did the opposite. JJ: That’s true. That’s what I [gathered?] about -- WA: Hey, listen, to stay healthy -- I wanna be 103, so... JJ: Well, when there was a little thing you guys did, the whole neighborhood sometimes got together and had a fight or something, no? You mentioned the baseball game. WA: Well, usually, you didn’t have fights in baseball, but the fights were -- this group of guys that were older than we were came in and, that same day, showed up around there after that. And -- JJ: And then baseball usually gets -- WA: Yeah, that was the only time -- JJ: It was just one time. WA: Yep, it was a one-time thing. JJ: So did you guys go around Halsten and Dickens? WA: Oh, sure. JJ: What was that like? WA: Walter High School [00:49:00] is right there. How can we not be -- 39 �JJ: So what was Halsten and Dickens like? WA: Well, I didn’t hang around there. I went there, but I didn’t hang around. I mean -- JJ: Where did you hang around? WA: I didn’t hang around. (laughs) JJ: Not even hanging (inaudible)? WA: No. JJ: Just sports, and that was it? WA: Sports. I’d come home and, you know, do my homework and that, and that was it. I didn’t do too much hanging around. JJ: It was more the Paragons and all of them? WA: Yeah. Well, we had dances also at the YMCA. JJ: So what were the dances at The Y like? WA: All the high school guys. JJ: So the high school guys and them -- WA: The girls -- JJ: -- [would go to these dances from Walter]? WA: Yeah, they went to Walter and -- JJ: So they were decent dances? WA: Yeah, in those days, it was. JJ: No big fighting or anything? WA: No, that’s what I mean. We were a fun group. Nobody was looking for any fights or anything, you know. Everything was normal, you know, not... JJ: Did the neighborhood change at all? 40 �WA: [00:50:00] Where? JJ: At Lincoln around North Avenue? WA: Well, sure. Right now, it’s a very good neighborhood. JJ: That good? WA: It costs a lot of good money to buy a house around here. JJ: And the other Puerto Ricans neighborhoods are not so good today? (laughter) WA: Yeah, well, it’s -- JJ: I’m joking. WA: Yeah, I know, but there’s still a lot of Puerto Ricans holding onto their -- JJ: To their properties? WA: -- properties, yeah. The guy who owned just about the whole neighborhood there was the hardware store, Frank. JJ: Frank. WA: Remember Frank’s hardware store across the street from the church there? JJ: At Armitage, yeah. WA: By, yeah, [Sheffield?] and that. JJ: He owned the whole block? WA: He owned the whole neighborhood. JJ: Really? WA: He owned, you know, almost every home, building, [shops?] around there. JJ: Frank? WA: And then, you know, what’s his name Carlos Flores -- he’s dead -- had that corner building on Armitage by -- 41 �JJ: Oh, he took me to that building. WA: Yeah, a big building he had there, so you know, some Puerto Ricans -- JJ: Did Mario Rivera have any -- WA: -- did all right. Mario -- JJ: At this point. WA: Junior or the -- JJ: Junior. WA: Junior has (Spanish). [00:51:00] JJ: (Spanish). [00:51:01] WA: But his father is the original. On Clark Street, he was the original in the ’50s. JJ: And who were some of the other businesses that you remember? Who gave haircuts? WA: Oh, man -- JJ: The barber. WA: -- we used to go to -- I forget its name, God. JJ: Well, who is -- WA: We lived in the same building on Sedgwick. We lived on the third floor, and he lived on the second floor. And then he went to Puerto Rico with his wife and daughter. Well, [Omelina?] -- JJ: Omelina. WA: -- was his name, and I can’t think -- JJ: Oh, yeah, Omelina. 42 �WA: Yeah, and that’s it. And then I used to also get haircuts on Clark Street by Chicago Avenue. It was owned by Puerto Ricans and that in those days, but I don’t remember their names, really. JJ: Okay. So [00:52:00] we talked about the school, and then we talked about when you got married. How did that happen? WA: I told Maria if she wants to get married... (laughter) MA: That’s such a -- WA: I was in the service, and we were going out, you know, when I went in. And I came out in September of ’67, and we got married in November of ’66, November 5. And that was it. Decided we wanted to get married, and so we got married. And at that time, my mom lived at 2250 North Lincoln. JJ: Lincoln? WA: Lincoln Avenue, yeah. MA: It was already changing. WA: Yeah, it was already getting (inaudible) [00:53:00] in the late ’60s. Well, when I came in ’67, we rented an apartment at 1341 West Addison. That was my first apartment ever ’cause I always lived at home with my family when I was a kid. I went straight from the house to the Army, so you know, I never lived alone. First time alone was when I went in the Army, so you can say that my upbringing was because, you know, in the Army, I learned, you know, a lot of hard work. When they tell you, “Clean the latrine,” you clean the latrine and make sure that it shines when you get outta there. You don’t want to have no complaints, and that’s always been my motto. When I do something, I make sure that I clean 43 �after myself. I keep it clean. Right now, when we’re together, Maria and I, I’m always washing because I like, you know, keeping things clean. It may be two cups only, but [00:54:00] you know, I’ll make sure that they’re clean and put ’em away. So it’s a habit that you learn, and I always carry myself that way. When I do things, I do it the right way. I’m not gonna do a sloppy job, and that’s it. So we got married, and hey, it’s been 51 years. JJ: Congratulations. WA: Fifty-one years, yeah. And of course, the product that we have raised are beautiful. (laughs) And they’re all smart, and they have a good head on their shoulders. And it’s because, you know, I always said that, “You gotta go to school, you know. You wanna be somebody? You gotta do your job and do the best you can, whatever you are. You wanna be a garbage man or whatever? You make sure that you’re the best there is because that’s the way it is, you know?” JJ: What’s the best thing that you liked about growing up there in that neighborhood? WA: [00:55:00] The neighborhoods that I grew up in? JJ: Well, yeah, the neighborhood -- WA: Chicago? JJ: Yeah, Chicago Avenue and -- WA: Well, I’ve always lived in a nice neighborhood, I’ll be honest. I never lived on Chicago Avenue, you know? I always lived north. Like I said, my first apartment was in Wrigleyville on Southport and Addison, 1341. That was my first 44 �apartment. My second apartment was 3624 North Wayne a half a block north of Addison and a half a block east of Southport. JJ: So you were living in Lake View? WA: Lake View area, yeah, always. JJ: Okay. But I meant in Lincoln Park. WA: Not Lake View area. That’s -- P1: No, that’s right. WA: -- Wrigleyville. JJ: Wrigleyville. P1: More like -- WA: Wrigley, yeah. JJ: That must’ve been somewhere just -- P1: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WA: Lake View, yeah. JJ: But I meant in Lincoln Park, what was the -- WA: In Lincoln Park when I -- JJ: What do you remember about Lincoln? WA: Oh, Lincoln Park’s been a beautiful park. It’s always been a nice park. It’s -- JJ: I mean the neighborhood. WA: [00:56:00] The neighborhood’s always been nice. It’s not a bad neighborhood. I mean, you had how many Puerto Ricans on Wieland Road, Irish -- JJ: On Wieland? WA: Wieland, yeah. 45 �JJ: So did you always live around Puerto Ricans when you were there? WA: Yeah, my neighbors were Puerto Rican. JJ: So, I mean, there was a lot of Puerto Ricans around you? WA: Not when I -- see, when I got my first home that I bought -- JJ: I’m putting stuff in your head. I don’t want to do that. WA: No, the first home I bought was my second move. We moved from that apartment that I got when I came out of the Army into this home rented, okay? This was in ’68 that we moved to that house. Sixty-eight or ’69? Sixty-eight. And Maria went first before me and talked to the landlord or the owner of the house ’cause they had the apartment for rent, and [00:57:00] she said that she wanted to move there. And then Maria went and talked to the lady. “Oh, yes, I’m gonna bring my husband in the evening.” So I came with her, and when she saw me, (laughs) she said, “A little bit darker than...” And I -- JJ: Something about you being Black? WA: Yeah, well, you know, Puerto Rican. JJ: They didn’t like that? WA: Well, her sister has a building in your neighborhood. JJ: Who’s that? WA: The Germans, Streitenfeld. Her sister had a building on Dickens -- MA: Halsted. WA: -- and Halsted right in that area. JJ: Oh, they had the -- 46 �WA: Oh, you know, and that’s all Puerto Ricans around there at that time. And oh, she was so upset that, “These people are so dirty and [cockroaches?].” I said, “Well, listen, ma’am. I’m only a half a block away from here. Go check our apartment. See how it is. We’ve been there already for a year, you know, [00:58:00] living there.” JJ: So you just talked bad about my neighborhood. (laughter) WA: Yeah, well -- JJ: But anyway, at this point -- WA: -- ’cause she thought that I was that type of a person. Right away, you know, they brand you by the neighborhood. MA: On my own, [they didn’t happen?], and they were very nice. JJ: Oh, they [were good to you?]? WA: They brand you in a minute, you know, but what happened is they did rent to us, you know. JJ: So you told them, “I don’t live with those people”? MA: No. WA: No, it's not that. I want you to -- JJ: But you let ’em know at that time. WA: Yeah, and you know what? MA: [It had started?] -- WA: You can say what you want. I said, “But, you know, we’re not those type of people. You can see my apartment, how my wife and I keep our house. And we --” 47 �JJ: Yeah, ’cause that’s the -- WA: “-- have a little girl already, Melissa.” So they didn’t even come to see the apartment. They just took my word for it. JJ: And they took your word for it. MA: [And that’s what they wanted?]. (laughs) WA: And I told them that I worked in, you know, the clothing store and all that. JJ: You know, the reason I say that is because that actually happened to me. You know, I went, and they told [00:59:00] me they had an apartment. And then when I got and brought my mother, then she said, “No, the apartment is rented,” because maybe they don’t [allow that?]. And they said it was okay, but then when I brought my mother -- WA: “She’s like me.” (laughter) So that’s what happened with Maria -- JJ: You know how -- WA: -- but you know what’s nice about it? JJ: So was that going on? MA: Oh, sure. WA: Oh, sure, it happened. She right away said, “Oh, no,” and she started telling me the story about her sister with the building in Halsted. And I said, “I want you to know that I graduated from Walter High School, you know? And yes, there is people like that in that area, but I’m not like that. And you don’t have to believe me, but you can go to our apartment if you want to check references.” And we wound up getting the apartment, so we rented that apartment. And the first winter -- the owner used to come and clean the snow and everything. But then 48 �[01:00:00] what happened is that whenever it snowed, I would get up in the morning early and clean up the side. I’d clean up the front ’cause I didn’t want Maria and the baby to fall or something going down the stairs. So every time he came, the place was clean already, you know. Two years later, he decided he wants to sell the house, so he says, “Yeah, I’m thinking of selling the house.” But in the meantime, he lived on Lawrence and Hamlin. JJ: And Hamlin? WA: Lawrence and Hamlin, a corner home. Real nice home, and he invited us for dinner, so we went to have dinner at his house. So we talked, and we made the deal on the house. And at that time, you know, Maria and both worked, and we had like 5000 dollars saved. So I told him, “Well, I got 5000 dollars that I can put down, and I’ll see if I can get the bank to [01:01:00] give me the...” At that time, the house was 21,300 dollars, so he says to me, “I’ll tell you what. I’ll give you a personal loan for three years for 5000 dollars more.” So now, I got 10,000 dollars to put down on the house, and I only had to finance 13,000 dollars on that house. Double lots. Bought that house; we made the deal. I paid 171 dollars mortgage a month. I used to make 230 dollars in rent from the two apartments downstairs. MA: Those were the days, man. WA: Oil heat, 18 cents a gallon, but I used to clean the furnace myself. I used to do everything. I would come out blacker than the shirt you have on, you know, because when you’re with all the carbon and all that stuff, my face and everything was, you know... [01:02:00] And then I’m wearing gloves and a long 49 �sleeve sweater because otherwise, I’d really be -- and from that house, two years later, we bought another home. And I still kept that house, and I bought it on 5837 North Spaulding by Hollywood Park between Kedzie and Spaulding. So that’s my second home. Then, we sold that house, and we made a profit on it. In the meantime, we had a fire at the house on Wayne, and so the whole place had to be emptied. So what I did is I had the first floor opened up, you know, ’cause in the old days, they had small rooms. And the living room is small, the dining [01:03:00] room -- you know, so I knocked down walls inside the house, you know, ’cause the insurance gave me 30,000 bucks to do the work. And they put new windows and everything in it. I didn’t care about the money. The insurance is giving me money anyway, and I had, you know, the insurance that I paid. But they did everything the way we wanted it, so we moved back into the house there. JJ: And the house was located where? WA: Thirty-six 24 North Wayne. JJ: North Wayne, that’s right. WA: Mm-hmm. And then it came out that (Spanish) [01:03:34] Louis Sias and his brother had a building at 1409 West Byron, and they were gonna sell the building. So I bought that building from them, and I still kept the house there. This is in ’72, ’73, around there. And the building had three apartments because they had a basement apartment, and they [01:04:00] had the first and second floor. So I was getting rent from the building, so it pays itself. I didn’t have to pay 50 �too much, you know, and I bought it because I put her mother on one floor and I put my mother on the other floor. So I had my two -MA: Look out. WA: (laughs) Both of my moms -- MA: (Spanish). [01:04:20] JJ: (Spanish). [01:04:23] WA: So I had my two moms together, you know, and then the one apartment, I rented to this Dominican guy. He’s a CTA bus driver, so he picked up almost the tab for paying the mortgage on the building and everything because, you know, he had reasonable rent. And the area is a nice area, you know. And that building -- I sold it in 1998. I paid 115. We sold it for 400,000, but Uncle Sam killed me with the -- JJ: All the -- WA: -- tax, [01:05:00] so I said, “What are you gonna do?” But what happened after that is that before I sold the building, the store where I worked at, Gaslight, came up for sale. So I needed 50,000 bucks cash to buy half of the store. So since I already had fixed up the house on Wayne and lived there, the bus driver -- you know, I told him that, “I’m gonna need that apartment.” So I gave him two free months’ rent and, you know, said, “I’ll give you two months to move, and you don’t have to pay me anything.” And, you know, he was a nice guy. We had a good relationship, so he moved out, and I went in and I took that apartment. I sold my house on Wayne, and I got the 50,000 to buy Gaslight, that 50 percent. JJ: What year was this? 51 �WA: 1978. JJ: Seventy-eight? Okay. WA: Seventy-eight. JJ: And [01:06:00] you just got into the business of clothing? WA: Yeah, but I’ve been doing it all my life. JJ: But you were doing it all your life, so -- WA: Since high school, I’ve been doing this -- JJ: Yeah, you were selling it. WA: Yeah, selling and buying. JJ: But was Darwin connected with you at the time? WA: I had my stuff before (Spanish) [01:06:14] Darwin. JJ: Before him? WA: No, he was not connected with me at all. JJ: Okay, so he learned from you. I mean, he got connected with -- WA: No, he worked at Herb’s on North Avenue. He -- JJ: Oh, that’s right, Herb’s. WA: Oh, yeah, he worked for a long time also in the store. MA: And my brother worked for him. JJ: Oh, your dad worked for him? MA: No, my brother -- JJ: Oh, your brother. MA: -- worked for Darwin. JJ: For Darwin? 52 �MA: I don’t know if you know him. Alan or Bob used to work there. WA: Yeah, he worked with Tony. JJ: I meant that one, then, ’cause he had it there on Clark Street, didn’t he? MA: Yeah, Taurus. WA: It used to be The Windjammer -- MA: And then Taurus. WA: Yeah, but Taurus was his business when he opened it. But he worked at Herb’s, and they moved to Belmont in Central Park. JJ: Oh, Central Park, [01:07:00] okay. WA: And it became The Windjammer at that time, the store. JJ: But they have one on Clark Street, don’t they now? WA: Huh? JJ: It was on Clark Street? WA: No. JJ: Or was it -- MA: Maybe he worked there? WA: No, The Windjammer was on North Avenue. JJ: I’m trying to figure out -- then he must’ve worked for somebody. Okay, but -- WA: Yeah, he worked on North Avenue. When he was in high school, he was working for Herb. JJ: You mentioned North Avenue, but I’m saying I saw him around Clark Street or something like that. 53 �WA: Well, yeah, ’cause that’s when he opened up his own store. It was on Broadway, though. JJ: On Broadway. WA: It was on Broadway, yeah. JJ: It was Broadway, yeah. WA: Yeah, just north of Diversey. JJ: Yeah, north of Diversey. WA: Twenty-nine Hundred North on Diversey. JJ: Yeah, that’s where I saw him. WA: He had -- JJ: So that was his store. WA: Yeah, Tauru, T-A-U-R-U. MA: Yeah, Tauru. WA: Yeah, actually, that’s his month that he was born, a Taurus. MA: His birth sign. WA: His birth sign, yeah, Taurus. JJ: A Taurus? MA: Mm-hmm. WA: Yeah. But no, in ’78, I was a pioneer -- JJ: But he went to your group? I mean, you were all friends. You grew up together in Lincoln -- WA: I taught him how to ride [01:08:00] a bicycle. JJ: You taught him how to ride a bicycle? 54 �WA: At Ogden. Him and I both went to Ogden School. JJ: So you lived in the same block? WA: No, he lived by -- JJ: But you went to the same school? WA: Yeah, we went to the same school, but he lived more by Chicago Avenue. I was by Division and -- JJ: Oh, he lived by Chicago Avenue? WA: Yeah. JJ: Okay, I get it. WA: So, you know, yeah, I taught him how to ride a bicycle. But, you know, we’ve always been -- you know, growing up in -- JJ: Did he hang out at Halsten and Dickens? WA: Huh? JJ: Did Darwin hang out at Halsten and Dickens? WA: Oh, sure, he’d hang out wherever he wanted, that guy. JJ: He was one of those peoples that I don’t know. WA: Yeah, he’d hang out all over. JJ: I don’t know him, okay? (laughter) WA: But no, I kept most of my friends who are still, you know, there. You know, but that’s what happened in ’78, and then we had a contract that if anything happened to him, his wife would have to sell me the other percentage. And if [01:09:00] something happened to me, she had to sell back to him whatever, you know -- but he passed away in ’82. And then I bought out the balance of the 55 �store in ’83, and that’s it. But I’ve been running the store since ’78 by myself. He bought a motel in Florida. JJ: Okay. That’s where he’s at right now? WA: No, he’s six feet under. JJ: Oh, that’s right. He’s dead. WA: He died in ’83, yeah. But his son had the motel, and they sold it. They got rid of it, you know, but he lives in Florida. His son’s still alive. He’s 65 now. JJ: And you kind of retired now. You’re just -- WA: I retired in ’07. JJ: In ’07? Okay. WA: Yeah, 10 years already, I’ve been retired. Actually, it’s gonna be -- JJ: So what are you doing now in your retirement? WA: Nothing. I mean, when you retire -- JJ: Okay, well -- WA: I’ll tell you what I do. JJ: Fishing or anything -- you don’t fish, or...? WA: I don’t fish, no. That’s a boring -- JJ: That’s boring for you. MA: For him. WA: I play golf. JJ: Oh, you [01:10:00] play golf. WA: I play golf, yeah. That, I do. JJ: I don’t know anything about that. 56 �WA: Yeah, I play golf. JJ: Okay. I got friends that play that. I just don’t know anything about that. WA: Yeah, see, I picked that up also early in life. I picked it up in the ’60s or early ’70s. I mean, I stopped playing baseball in ’71. That’s when I started picking up golf, when I stopped playing baseball, because now, you know, I had the full-time job at the store and I couldn’t. The salesmans used to take me out, and I would, you know, play golf with them and all that, so yeah. JJ: Okay, so let’s kind of go to kind of finish up the interview and that. What’s the main thing that you want people to remember about growing up or anything like that in Lincoln Park or -- you know, not, [01:11:00] you know, to remember you by, but that you think are important? WA: I don’t care what they remember me by. JJ: Anything that you think are important? WA: All I can tell you is that if you do things right all your life -- you’re gonna make mistakes here and there, but nothing that is critical. Mistakes can be remedied, and that’s no problem. But when you go into making mistakes that are astronomical, you know, I mean, it’s out of this world, then, well, you know... But if you think, especially young couples -- they get married and have kids, and then they’re father absentee or mother absentee, you know. You gotta be there for your kids always, no matter what. They’re never too old. You always gotta take care of your kids no matter what, and my bottom line is that. I don’t want my kids to take care of me. I wanna take care of them, you know. That’s the way it is. 57 �And educate because that’s the most important thing; [01:12:00] got to have an education. Doors open up when you’re educated. JJ: And what’s the most important -- what do you remember the most of Lincoln Park, the neighborhood? WA: The most I remember is the good times I had. It was great growing up in Lincoln Park, I’ll be honest with you. I had a good time playing ball, and people were nice. I cannot complain. People always say, you know, “If you’re nice, they’re nice.” I always smile for one reason: so I can give you a smile. When I give you a smile, I don’t care if I don’t even know the person. I always smile, and it’s, “Hi.” And then they’ll look at me, but they’ll smile, and that’s one thing I always take with me. I give you a smile, and I get a smile. (laughs) JJ: And no negative things -- WA: Nothing. JJ: -- about Lincoln Park? WA: Yeah, nothing. JJ: About Lincoln Park, the neighborhood. WA: No, that’s -- JJ: Nothing negative? WA: Nothing negative, nothing. JJ: All positive? Okay, thank you, I appreciate it. WA: No problem. JJ: Can I interview your [01:13:00] wife? WA: It’s up to her. 58 �MA: I’m not a very good -- END OF VIDEO FILE 59 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5dfbcb05bd063405a9660ad4f0ded5d3.mp4 65358f16d0a987ec69228e665e53c849 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Wilfredo Aviles vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Wilfredo Aviles, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 09/27/2018 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Aviles_Wilfredo Title A name given to the resource Wilfredo Aviles video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Aviles, Wilfredo Description An account of the resource Oral history of Wilfredo Aviles, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 09/27/2018 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Wilfredo Aviles was Born in Manati, Puerto Rico. He arrived in the US on July 1955 to Chicago, IL at Clark and Division Streets or La Clark Neighborhood. His Parents were Angelina Tirado Aviles & Sixto Aviles, and he has three siblings. He lived in old town/Lincoln Park for about 10 years, then moved to the Lake View area. His work experience included the U.S. Army, and retail in the family owned business, The Gaslight Men's Shop, and eventually became the owner (43 years). He retired in 2008. Wilfredo was also a civic leader. He was the first Latino President of Erie Family Health Center Board (2 years); Treasurer of the Puerto Rican Parade committee (5 years); Puerto Rican Chamber of Commerce- Treasurer (5 years); and the Chicago Avenue Business Association-President (5 years). He was a member of the Caballeros de San Juan. During his youth he belonged to one of the many sports clubs which often played baseball in Lincoln Park. A few times members of his group joined with other Puerto Rican youth to protect themselves from roving white ethnic gangs which had existed in Lincoln Park previous to Puerto Ricans arriving there. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-09-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a504811e89a273a10fa7e10f0aca097a.pdf 34d859f62d470eb57cc5c25df33d09e9 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Luis “Tony” Baez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/23/2012 Biography and Description Luis “Tony” Baez arrived in Chicago from Barrio Borinquén of Caguas, Puerto Rico in 1969 and soon became Minister of Education of the Young Lords. Barrio Borinquén is the first rural community just outside of Caguas on the same road that leads to Barrio San Salvador. Dr. Baez comes from a Puerto Rican cuatro playing family, and he also plays guitar. In Puerto Rico, Dr. Baez was also active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP), the electoral component of the broad movement in Puerto Rico, fighting for Puerto Ricans to regain back control of their nation. By 1970, Dr. Baez moved from Chicago to Milwaukee and set up a Young Lords chapter. They maintained a community office and distributed the Young Lords Newspaper (that Dr. Baez had also helped to publish while in Chicago), focusing primarily on neighborhood organizing, community-based programs, and bilingual education. During the same time, Dr. Baez continued his studies and some years later earned a Ph.D. Today Dr. Baez is Executive Director of the Council for the Spanish Speaking, Inc. The organization was established in 1964 and is the oldest Latino community-based organization in Milwaukee. The Council serves more than 15,000 individuals, including at risk youth, working families, adult learners and the elderly via subsidized elderly housing. They also assist with foreclosure counseling, health education, and civic engagement and mobilization. Dr. Baez is the former Provost and Chief Academic Officer of the Milwaukee Area Technical College in Wisconsin. He has served as Assistant to the President, Associate Dean of Pre- �College Programs, Dean of Liberal Arts and Sciences, and Director of Research, Planning and Development there as well. In the Bronx, New York, Dr. Tony Baez also ser served as Vice-President and Dean of Faculty at Hostos Community College. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible) Testing, one, two, three. Testing, one, two, three. LUIS BAEZ: Testing, one, two, three. Testing, one, two, three. Can you hear me well? (break in audio) JJ: Okay. Tony, if you can give me your name, your date of birth, and where you were born? LB: I was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico in 1948, and in the Caguas, it has a number of barrios, and I was in a barrio called Borinquen, close to Salvador, and Salvador’s, where Cha-Cha Jiménez is from. JJ: Okay, San Salvador. LB: Yup. JJ: [San Salvador?]. And what was the date that you were --? LB: September 3, ’48. JJ: September what? LB: Third. Third. JJ: [Third, okay?]. Okay. Okay, so, Borinquen. What was that like? Give me a description of that. LB: Barrio Borinquen in Caguas was a neighborhood that was very active in [00:01:00] the 1960s because of a lot of things that were happening on the island that were very political in nature. And I was recruited at that time by groups of people that were involved with the Puerto Rican Independence Party to be a part of the youth organizations that were in the area. We were also involved, at that 1 �time, in takeovers, land takeovers, where people were desperate for housing, and there were large lands that were being used for sugar canes -- fields and for cattle. And, as sugar cane was dwindling, coming down, those big, huge areas became empty, and we -JJ: What year was this? LB: This was in the 1960s, 1966 to ’69, more or less. And so, I was recruited -- JJ: So, there was sugar around there, in --? LB: Yeah, there was a lot of sugar in that neighborhood. There was a lot of [00:02:00] cattle in that neighborhood. The (Spanish) [00:02:02], they produced milk. They sold milk to the city. And so, there was economy based both on the sugar cane, tobacco, and cattle. Okay? And my grandfather was the owner of a piece of land that produced a lot of sugar cane. JJ: What was your grandfather’s name? LB: [Emilio?] Baez. Emilio Baez, who had been a politician involved in another barrio of Caguas before he came to Borinquen, and my father was -- JJ: What kind of politician? LB: A local politician. He was a city councilor. JJ: City counselor. LB: And he lost an election -- he was very disappointed -- in Barrio (inaudible). And then, he got this piece of land in Borinquen and came over, and he grew a family there, and my father was the first member of that family out of nine people who [00:03:00] made it to the Army. He enlisted in the Army, and the family was not 2 �happy with him because he enlisted in the Army. To my fortune, when he came back because he -JJ: This is in World War II, or...? LB: World War II. JJ: Okay. LB: Because he had been a soldier, and he had been around, and he had traveled, and, you know, he had more aspirations for us. There were four boys and one girl in my family, and he also took us back and forth from back inBarrio Borinquen to New York as a worker. My mother and he would come and work in the different industries in New York City, and then they would go back, and it was almost like an annual thing, so -- JJ: Like factories, or --? LB: Factories and the needle industry. JJ: The needle industry. LB: A lot of the needle industry. JJ: In New York. LB: In New York, yeah. And -- JJ: What were their names? LB: [Bernardo?] Baez was my father, who died in [2004?], [00:04:00] and my mother, who’s still alive, [Maria Isabel?] (inaudible) Baez. And so, they -- JJ: Your siblings, what were their names? LB: Oh, my siblings. One was [José “Tito”?] Baez, who is a cuatrista and pretty well known in Puerto Rico for a master cuatro player. 3 �JJ: Tito Baez, mm-hmm. LB: Yeah. And my other brother is [Eduardo?]. JJ: And what does Eduardo do? LB: Eduardo is a guitarist. Okay? And a worker ’cause they’re all workers. Tito -José -- for example, who follows me, was working in the public schools and taking food to the cafeterias, these school cafeterias. (Spanish) [00:04:44], as they call them. And my sister, [Yolanda?], who was also a laborer. She lived in [there?]. She lived in New York. She lived in Chicago too. And one brother who was very active. [00:05:00] We called him [Papo?], and he disappeared one day during the political process, and we found his body later. JJ: Disappeared, and you found his body? LB: We found his body in the -- JJ: So -- LB: -- beach in (inaudible). Yeah. JJ: But, I mean, you know that it had to do with political reasons? LB: The suspicion is that it did. Okay? Some people say that maybe he went for a swim and that happened. Well, he used to work as a swim guard in one of these places, so that’s unlikely, but my brother was known for his political activism (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And he was among the couple people that stood on the Lares celebration in 1960 -- 1970, actually. Yeah, 1970. And burned an American flag on top of the US post office. And, after that, he was the subject of a lot [00:06:00] of persecution, and he came to Milwaukee for a bit, and he went back, and then he died. So, he died at the age of 26. Okay? So, 4 �my family was sort of like well known in Barrio Borinquen because my father set up a little store there and a little country bar, and I used to work there with him, and we went back to Puerto Rico for [a certain point?] when I was in sixth grade. JJ: Right there at the entrance, that country bar? LB: Yes. It was [just that street?] going into Barrio Borinquen. And the activities of the family were sort of like well known, and my father -- JJ: Are they still there? Are there any family members still there? LB: Yes. Everybody’s there. Everybody’s there except me. JJ: (inaudible). LB: Yes, and my father that died. But my father was, you know, more conservative. He had been a soldier, and he was member of -- he was sort of like a follower of the Republican party in Puerto [00:07:00] Rico, so I had my disagreements with my father, and I had very strong disagreements, like most people in Puerto Rico. JJ: Yeah, my father was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LB: Exactly. In the same house, we have people who are Republicans, Populares. In my house, my father was Republican, my mother was Popular, and I was Independentista, you know? And we used to have these discussions about party lines and our own ideological lines because that’s the nature of Puerto Rico for a long time. Since the Americans came in 1898, there has been this whole movement around either becoming sort of stabilized as a colonial state, like the Populares did, particularly since the ’40s and the ’50s, or become a state of the United States, like they are still trying to make Puerto Rico a state even though 5 �the US doesn’t want us. And then, the groups [00:08:00] that were pushing for Puerto Rico to become an independent island from the United States. JJ: What do you mean, the United States doesn’t want us? LB: The Congress of the United States has repeatedly stated throughout the years the Puerto Rico, for them, is a major dilemma, and it’s a problem, not just along racial lines, as many of us know, but, because of the density of the population, we would probably have more representation in Congress than many states in the Union. However, the representatives in those states would have to vote in a referendum to make us a state, and becoming a state of this Union is extremely difficult to do. So, the politics of it is that -- why would you want to vote in another territory that will bring in more representation in the Congress of the United States than many -- and I really mean many -- states will have? Okay? And, on top of that, people of color and [00:09:00] that have been saying for many years that they want to remain bilingual, and they want to -- and they insist on Spanish being the national language of Puerto Rico as opposed to English. So, yeah, being from Borinquen, having had those experiences, participating in land takeovers, and then going to the University of Puerto Rico and the -- JJ: So, you participated in -- you went to the university, but you participated in the land takeovers? LB: Yes. JJ: But were there people arrested in that or anything like that, or --? LB: Yeah, there were people arrested, but it was a different time. It was not like here. I mean, these were Puerto Rican policemen, many of whom themselves needed 6 �houses, and they participated in land takeovers in other places on the island. Okay? So, it was a time in the island where people were just taking over land -JJ: What year was this? LB: This is from ’66 to ’68. Okay. People were doing this. I mean, 1968 is a big [00:10:00] year of people rising all over the world. Okay? There’s books written about this stuff. As the (inaudible) of a particular year where people had enough, like people are having enough today, and people go into the streets to exercise, basically, democracy. And, in Puerto Rico, that was reflected in the [strong?] movement to take over lands. And so, you were affected. I mean, you’re in the same barrio, and, all of a sudden, somebody comes to the little store of my father and says, “(Spanish) [00:10:33].” And then, “We’re getting people together to --” And then, you go with him. You participate, and, all of a sudden, you find yourself as a speaker, you know, in events like that, and I remember, in one of these events, I was asked by the people in the area -- said, “Well, you speak well. Could you speak for us?” And the city council -- this was my first time before the city council in Puerto Rico, in Caguas, okay? [00:11:00] And I go there, and these people are distinguished folks and councilmen, you know, (Spanish) [00:11:06], right? And so, for me, it was a little bit weird to have to do that, but, you know, we were young folks. We saw what was going on in the neighborhood. We didn’t think it was fair, and we became involved. Then, we got affected by the war. JJ: What wasn’t fair? I don’t understand. You’re taking over somebody’s land. 7 �LB: Well, what was fair is that people were living in little huts all over the place that didn’t have their own homes, and their houses were attached to the land of others. So, like, my grandfather, who had a piece of land, I used to remember the (inaudibleChito?) who used to take care of a lot of the maintenance of the land. He had a little house right next to the (Spanish) [00:11:58], right? [00:12:00] Smelling all that cow stuff and all that stuff with a big family, and some of these family members used to be my friends. I used to go, “Why do they have to live like that?” So, these are people that became part of a movement of takeovers. And then, on top of that, you had the war, and then you had the ideological battles, and the Puerto Rican Independence Party, the Puerto Rican Socialist Party at that time, in Puerto Rico were very adamant about the whole thing that a very energetic youth had to be included and had to be a part of a change in the island and resisting the war, the war in Vietnam, because the war in Vietnam was becoming a household word for people in (inaudible). So many Puerto Ricans were being recruited by Servicio Militar Obligatorio to go to the war to fight in foreign lands in wars that we had nothing to do with. Okay? [00:13:00] Wars that we had not begun, that were began by other corporate interests. So, we were sort of part of a resistance movement in the war. We were part of land takeovers. We used to march a lot. I mean, the schools where I went to. I mean, people demonstrating -- JJ: In (Spanish) [00:13:21]? LB: No. In Barrio Borinquen, no, but I went to the school in the city. Okay? So, there was a little bus that used to take us to the city, and, (Spanish) [00:13:34] 8 �was a high school, and (Spanish) [00:13:38] was a middle school. Kids were very involved. We had demonstrations, and we used to march, and all this kind of stuff, and sometimes we’d wonder why we were marching so much, but we did it anyway. And then, we heard about these demonstrations at the University of Puerto Rico, and these students were (Spanish) [00:14:00] because they didn’t want to go to the war. And then, the movements like the Sixto Alvelo movement. Sixto Alvelo was a Puerto Rican student that went with a group of students to Vietnam to see what was going on over there, and he was in a school with a group of other students from other Latin countries. And, when the US bombed Vietnam -- and he was in one of those places where the bombs fell, and he was killed, and Sixto Alvelo had nothing to do with it. So, there’s a big movement. I became, later, the vice president of the youth movement in the -- what was called Sixto Alvelo Movement in Defense of the Juventud Puertorriquena. And so, we were all affected by all this stuff that was going on, and I was right in the middle of all of that because I was an emerging young kid among the kids in the neighborhood who took positions, [00:15:00] and PIP, for example, the Puerto Rican Independence Party, had an office in town, and they made the office accessible to me and a bunch of other young kids. And I was sort of like the young leader of that group that would represent the group in different events. I remember there was other folks that were doing likewise, young people that went out teaching in the schools, and the Puerto Rican Independence Party had a huge convention in 1968, and two of us were selected to argue against established leaders in the party that had been to prison with Pedro Albizu 9 �Campos for other kinds of things in the ’50s. And here we are, these young kids, debating them on the sort of procedure of things in the party and in conventions because we wanted more voice. The youth movements wanted more [00:16:00] voice in the party. So, within the party, there was all that debate. How do you make the party more democratic and sort of move towards [the real time?]? When they were sort of behind the times, as we thought, because they were still following the (Spanish) [00:16:17], the whole Albizu Campos movements, and all of that stuff, and (Spanish) [00:16:27] [Rivera?], and others, who we saw as good leaders who had done good things, but they belonged to another generation. We were the new generation coming in. So, yeah, we were involved in all of that stuff. I remember speaking in Bayamón before a mass of people and going like, “Wow, I’m speaking to this mass of people about members of the party who are old members of the party, and now the young people are taking over.” And Rubén Berríos was president of the party, and, for us, that was like, “Wow, he’s such a good speaker.” [00:17:00] He was such a good presenter, an economist, a doctor, you know. [In economics, he?] went to Oxford and Princeton, and we were impressed because we had sort of like a youthful leader that was taking the party in another direction, and it was a direction that was a little bit more aggressive, and it was going more to the streets, and there were demonstrations, as opposed to the old [guard?] that was negotiating -JJ: So, [it was?] (inaudible) as the old guard, or --? LB: No, he was a new guard. JJ: He was the new guard. 10 �LB: He was the new leader. He was young. He was energetic. He spoke so well, and, for us, every time he made a speech, it was like, “Wow.” So, I was affected by all this that I saw around me and people like him, who were remarkable role models for us as people that, when they grab a microphone at a podium, they mobilize masses, and I’m talking [00:18:00] about masses. You know, you’re talking 40, 50 thousand people, demonstrations like that. So, when I finished high school, I went to the University of Puerto Rico on a scholarship because we were too poor. I didn’t have money to really go there. And so, I would work at my father’s store and then go to the University of Puerto Rico, and I had to take a little (Spanish) [00:18:25], as we call them, (Spanish) [00:18:27], public transportation, every day. Had to get up at five in the morning to (inaudible) Barrio Borinquen -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:18:36] is what? Like a van, or --? LB: Yeah, it’s like a van, and it’s a public transportation van, and -- JJ: Versus a bus. LB: Versus a bus. And these things were out in the street since early, so, at five o’clock in the morning out of Barrio Borinquen, I took one of those. I took it to Caguas. And then, from Caguas, take another (Spanish) [00:18:56] to Río Piedras, and then, Río Piedras -- [00:19:00] they left you at the plazas, and you had to walk to the University of Puerto Rico. And when I went to the University of Puerto Rico is the first time I’ve seen a university. I didn’t know what that was. I heard a lot about it, and I heard about the demonstrations and all of that, but I didn’t really know what that is. And you had to do it between five in the morning 11 �and four o’clock because that’s when the (Spanish) [00:19:19] stop rolling. Okay? So, your classes had to be during the day. And then, at night, I’d work at the store, but I had to travel. I didn’t have money to stay, like many children of privilege did when they went to the University of Puerto Rico. They had their dorms and all of that. No, I lived in Caguas. I could take transportation and then go there. And, when I got to the University of Puerto Rico, I started to see some incredible things around me. I was already politicized enough that I had a sense that I had to join these movements. JJ: So, you were going there to study what? What was your major? LB: When I went to the University of Puerto Rico first, I was the general [00:20:00] studies, but I [had a concern of?] becoming a math teacher. I wanted to be a math teacher, so most of my work was in mathematics, and, actually, after two and a half years -- JJ: My worst subject. LB: Yeah. When I was at the University of Puerto Rico, they assigned me as a substitute teacher in the country, in (Spanish) [00:20:21], and the first one was in [Cidra?], Puerto Rico, and in (Spanish) [00:20:26], and I was teaching mathematics. I was teaching the new algebra, okay? In high school. But I was a substitute teacher. I wasn’t a certified teacher yet. It’s just that the system needed a lot of substitute teachers ’cause they didn’t have enough teachers. But, when I went to the University of Puerto Rico, I met a lot of young folks that were extremely brilliant people. The University of Puerto Rico at that time was sort of like a center of very bright young folks because you had to have above a 12 �3.5 GPA average to get [00:21:00] into the university, and you had to test among the top 10 percent on the SAT, you know, and I happened to do that, so I got a scholarship, and I went in. And, at the University of Puerto Rico, you were surrounded by the activism of thousands of people, and the student movement that was becoming increasingly large, and people like Florencio Merced from the Puerto Rican Socialist Party or people from the -- what it’s called the JIU, la Juventud Independentista Universitaria. These were amazing speakers. These were students of law. These were students of journalism, more advanced than us. They were older than us young guys, but they were models, you know, and you saw them standing on top of cars and doing these incredible speeches, and you would learn from them. As a matter of fact, I heard a chancellor, Puerto Rican chancellor, speak one day here in Milwaukee, [00:22:00] and, when he finished, I went up to him and says, “You sound very much like me. Where did you learn this from?” He says, “Well, I went to the University of Puerto Rico in 1966.” [I says?], “Me too.” But it was so large that you never got to meet people. We had the same models. JJ: You had the same what? LB: The same models. We learned from the same people. JJ: The same people, yeah. LB: We learned from the same people, but we never met. JJ: So, what were some other names of some of the people -- LB: Florencio Merced, [Miguel Ángel?] -- [I forget?] his last name. But they were people who -- student leaders at that time. And then the party leaders, 13 �(inaudible), people like Rubén Berríos and others, and they were there all the time, participating with us on issues because it was the Vietnam War, the ideological battles, trying to make Puerto Rico an independent country. And then, the larger issue of -- in the context of the university -- of the university’s independence [00:23:00] from the political [groups?] and the political process. And, at that time, we used to argue that the university should be a place of study and for people learning and not to be controlled by government. You know, at that time, it was a -- (Spanish) [00:23:18] didn’t matter. It didn’t matter who was in power. The issue is the university should have that independence. Unfortunately, like right now, the university doesn’t have that independence because it’s controlled by the party in power. And then, this whole movement towards accountability has become an excuse for parties to take over universities and crush the whole issue of academic freedom. JJ: Can you describe what a movement towards accountability -- what is that? LB: Well, this accountability really begins at a -- stronger during the Reagan years. Okay? And it’s about the notion that America’s [00:24:00] failing because of people like us, people in the street and people in schools, et cetera. So, you vilify the small folks, and you glorify the people at the top, the one percent that makes the money and the corporate folks. Business is always right. Nonprofit organizations are always wrong. That kind of thing. People in the community are always wrong. They just want to take and take from government, and they want government to work for them, and these corporate people, they made it on their own. It doesn’t matter that it was us that built the roads that create their 14 �revenues and their richness or that [it was?] working people that created the infrastructure that allows them to make all that money and become international. They seem to forget that. Okay? But we, in the ’60s in Puerto Rico, were being slightly affected then by this accountability thing, and we stop it, [00:25:00] and we develop movements to promote the idea that the people need to have a seat at the table. And they use what government had at that time, and they still use it today -- the police [have separate purpose?] too. And so, the police at the University of Puerto Rico were highly involved in crushing youth movements, and I remember being arrested at the University of Puerto Rico once at the School of Social Sciences with some other folks because there was a huge demonstration at the university, and the police came, and, boy, they grab us. They throw us to the floor. They kick us. They took us into a police station, and, with phone books, they beat the heck out of us and that kind of stuff, and we had to be -- the person that bailed us out was the dean of the law school at the University of Puerto Rico, who was more into equity and into [00:26:00] a university that was protecting the students at that time. So, we went through all of those experiences, so, after the beating, that’s when my parents said, “You got to get out of here,” you know, and, finally, I ended up here in Chicago. JJ: This is after you got arrested -- LB: Yeah. JJ: Your parents said, “Let me get you out --” LB: Yeah. JJ: “Out of here. We don’t want you arrested again.” 15 �LB: Exactly. And, “You’re putting yourself in danger, and this is not for you.” My father was very embarrassed. For example, my father was extremely embarrassed that policemen beat me up and slapped me around. JJ: So, he wasn’t angry with the police? He was embarrassed? LB: No, he was embarrassed, and he was angry at me that I was espousing ideological positions and things like that to have these policemen beating me up and all that stuff, and that was embarrassing. He felt that I shouldn’t do that, that I was not deserving of that kind of treatment if I was on the right track. Okay? So, his position was always a little bit different from [00:27:00] mine in that regard. Later, when my brother disappeared, he never let go of the feeling that he was responsible for not protecting his kids from the police and from repression in Puerto Rico, but that was later. See? So, as he got older, he started to rethink his positions. So, yeah. You know, my mother raised money, and they sent me to Chicago, and I came here. JJ: Did you know people in Chicago, or...? LB: I knew some people in Chicago where I used to live at -- they were from the barrio. Okay? And I had just got married at that time. I was living with somebody, and she had come here -- JJ: What year was this? LB: This was in late ’69, and I arrived here in 1970. I arrived in Chicago in February of 1970. [Used to remember the?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JJ: ’70 or ’69? 16 �LB: ’70, yeah. [It was?] ’70, and it was cold like hell [00:28:00] outside. And, as I arrived in Chicago, the family I was staying at, which was on North Avenue and [Oakley?], that area, themselves, were Independentistas, and they were aware of everything that was going on, and they told me about, you know, these young kids took over People’s Church on Armitage. I didn’t know what the heck Armitage was or what was going on here, but it [smelled?] consistent with what I was doing in Puerto Rico, right? And so, I was -- when I left Puerto Rico, I left, really -- my whole heart was destroyed because I wanted to be a part of that movement, and I remember that all these people from the Puerto Rican Independence Party went to say goodbye to me at the airport. And so, coming to Chicago and finding out that people were doing things here against a system that was not working for people in general -- then, [00:29:00] the people in the house said, “There are some people that are meeting about this issue at People’s Church, and these kids are inside with weapons and protecting the church, you know? You should go in and talk to them too. Be a part of this.” And I said, “Yeah.” Made a lot of sense to me. So, that’s when I went to People’s Church, and you guys were inside already, and when I met Cha-Cha Jiménez for the first time there, and I met Omar López, and I always tell this story, that I felt a little bit odd because Omar was the first person I met from the Young Lords, and he was Mexican, you know? Not Puerto Rican. I thought this was a Puerto Rican movement. So, my idea of a Mexican was different, not involved in something like this, and we’d sort of joke about it and all that stuff, and I became involved, and I was introduced to Cha-Cha Jiménez, and I was sort of recruited right there. 17 �“Can you help us out? [00:30:00] You were involved at the University of Puerto Rico. Can you get involved here and help us organize an educational movement?” Because the Young Lords were talking about education. They had been doing educational stuff. They had been educating themselves and the community around them. So, the more of us that had some educational experience, the better, and, because I was from a barrio, not a child of privilege, it sort of made me be closer to people from the street. Okay? That had been in the street, doing things and struggling in the street as opposed to privileged kids that have this ideological [bent?] for a little bit, and then they go off to become lawyers somewhere else. Okay? JJ: So, you were asked to kind of set up some kind of classes or -- LB: Yes, I was -- JJ: -- some training. LB: I was asked, particularly by Omar López, who [00:31:00] I became very close to - and Omar, at that time, was living, I think, at Association House in the upstairs, and I was close enough, so I could just walk over there, and we would talk about how to further the education of the Young Lords. And Omar had been involved in the student movement here, so, for me, that was very impressive, that both him and his wife at that time, Ada, had been sort of like students in this movement too. So, we were able to talk in the language we knew, the language of students. The other members of the organization were more from the streets of Chicago. They had taken a number of political actions to stop repression, and that repression was in the form of government coming in, and taking over land, and 18 �not providing certain services, like free health clinics and things like that that needed to [00:32:00] happen. But everything moved around the fact that the Puerto Rican community in the Armitage area and Halsted area was being moved, was being pushed. I remember we used to talk about urban removal. Okay? So, how do you fight a system like that? You need to fight a system like that with good education and people who can speak and can present before audiences, so to be a little bit more participatory and more convincing. Okay? And then, Cha-Cha was a good speaker. And so, for me, when I got to the Young Lords, I was inspired also by the fact that there were people like Cha-Cha, and Omar, and [Alberto?], and others that were connecting to a larger understanding of a movement, and that movement [00:33:00] was affected by what the Black Panthers were doing, what the Brown Berets were doing, what people were doing in New York in the takeovers, what people were doing in California [and the?] Southwest, and you sort of heard about all of this because you were networking. And then, in the networking, you understood much better that this was not just us in Chicago -- there were more people doing this -- and that what was happening in Chicago is that people were a little more aggressive about doing certain things, more daring. You know, daring to be arrested, daring to go to the street, daring to have demonstrations. I participated in those demonstrations. I marched in those groups. I found myself with the Young Lords and before the UN in New York, marching and demonstrating. [I said?], wow. I would have never done that in Puerto Rico. And marches down Division Street and -- so, you’re surrounded [00:34:00] by the grandeur of movements of people 19 �resisting and fighting back and people talking about what they had just done, and the death of Fred Hampton, and the marches, and the riots in Chicago, and all of that. All of that talk, that discourse, was sort of affecting me personally because, now, if I had certain skills and education, I had to put those skills to work, and I had to work with others to identify the literature that was being read by folks in the movement to better understand what was going on everywhere. Okay? And that’s where I started to read more economics and read people like Marx, and I had touches on Marx at the University of Puerto Rico, but now, it was a little bit more formal, or reading (inaudible), or reading the others -- you know, Ho Chi Minh -- not because of who they [00:35:00] were as much as because they gave me additional tools and tools to understand the contradictions, these things that were going on. And so, I set up with Cha-Cha, and Omar, and others. I set up courses. It was like what I knew then. It was like formal courses at the University of Puerto Rico to teach young people about some of these folks, to get people to read more and to read more, and I was like a pain in the neck because I was telling people, “You got to read. You got to read,” because I was a reader, and I read everything that came my way. So, I wanted people to do that. I remember that, with the young women in the movement, I had these discussions one time because we were not doing -- yeah, sort of, we were not intellectuals trying to produce papers and all that kind of stuff, but they were sort of angry at me because I was pushing too much because, you know, I wanted them to read, and I wanted them to understand [00:36:00] things. And I kept on saying, “But you got to. You got to because we have to depend so much on people’s intellect 20 �in a movement like this and our ability to convince other people in the community.” And then, we had an idea of a newspaper and how to use the newspaper as an organizing tool, you know, that we would build into that newspaper news about the community, news about what was going on in all the country, and get it to people in our community in a bilingual fashion. Then, the idea that it had to reflect more what Mexicans and Puerto Ricans were going through, so we had in the paper, you know, little things with Zapata on one side and [Albizu another?]. The whole format had to be like that, but it took a lot of thinking. It took sort of a good understanding of what was going on in the movements, but we were not technicians that we knew how to do a newspaper, so we just imitated what other [00:37:00] people were doing, and doing layouts, and writing things in Spanish -JJ: What do you remember of some of the layouts? LB: Oh, yeah. Yeah. JJ: What do you remember [of it?]? LB: I had to do layouts. Yeah, and I had to figure things out, and these machines that we haven’t used before to type with two fingers, and do the little strips, and then the papers, and the columns because we had to be economical in how we put the columns in and all that kind of stuff. It costs money to do all of that stuff. And so, then we had to organize around that and get people to sell the newspaper and raise some money so that we could produce the next copy and the next copy. JJ: So, it was self-produced, or...? 21 �LB: It was self-produced. We did the whole thing. We work at it, and then Omar López was the minister of information, and he was responsible for the paper. I was the minister of education, and I was responsible for a lot of the content. And then, [00:38:00] Cha-Cha, you were mostly sort of like an inspirational piece, and you help us think about some things, and I remember we had many discussions about what kinds of things should we cover, and what kinds of things should we say? The next movement, how do we use the newspaper as an organizing tool? So, we were very much personally affected by what was going on, going to meetings. I remember that, once, they wanted you to speak. They wanted ChaCha to speak in some event, a student event in Carbondale. I didn’t know where Carbondale was. Cha-Cha said, “Well, you go,” and I didn’t know enough English. I said, “Oh, my God. How am I gonna do this,” right? Speak before a student body that I didn’t know how large. And the people that were involved was [Bernardine Dohrn?], who was gonna be speaking there, and then, she was a fugitive at that time. [00:39:00] I didn’t know. And (inaudible), who was her friend. And then, a group of people took me in a car with these fugitives, quoteunquote, to Carbondale, Illinois, and then they took us to the back door so that we could speak to the student movement. And, when I got up there, and I look at [it, I?] couldn’t see the end. There were masses of students. And I says, “Oh, my God. What do you say here?” And you spoken English, and you try your best to be as clear as possible, and you made the point in favor of a Young Lords movement that was emerging as a strong political force and that from becoming a street initiative, now, you had all this other activity and all this involvement that 22 �we could be a part of and present in a major student demonstration in Carbondale, Illinois. That, for me, was like, wow. That was very big. And then, getting into a car and sneaking you out, you know, [00:40:00] to Chicago. So, that was my sort of involvement in Chicago at that time. And then, I decided to go to Milwaukee. JJ: Before [you get to Milwaukee?]. Okay, so, now, you’re in Lincoln Park, and [there’s a Young Lords there in the church?]. You’re the minster of education. What was your impression of some of the Young Lords that hadn’t gone to school at all, that were just from the streets, from -- you know, ’cause we came right from the gang into the group without -- LB: That’s a very interesting point. My initial impression was that you had young people that were eager to do things, and they were daring because they had been in the streets. They would do things that I had not thought about doing before. You learn from that, and then you let them take the initiative, and you participate in it, but they were [00:41:00] daring acts. Okay? But they were not very well educated. They were people who were volatile, and they were individuals who were -- JJ: Volatile? LB: Volatile, and they were sort of -- [not?] very disciplined. Okay? You will call meetings, and people will [show or not show?] depending on that kind of stuff, or you would try to give some more structure to the organization, and you had to spend a bunch of time tracking people down and stuff like that. And it was different from being an organizer at the University of Puerto Rico, where the 23 �discipline was very high, and the kids that were at the University of Puerto Rico were very smart, and even those that came from poor neighborhoods were people who were very well prepared. And so, when you had a demonstration, you could count on 50 thousand people to go into the streets, and it was highly organized. Everybody was very responsible about different kinds of things. [00:42:00] When you come to Chicago, it’s not the same thing, but you have the passion. You have the people that are daring, and you want to be a part of that, so you have to get closer to the folks that are there, which I did. I got close, and I was part of the discussions and things like that, but I was always viewed as being more educated than other folks, and I was not different from them because I was also from the street but from a different place. JJ: And you were a member, right? LB: Yeah, I was a member, but I was, you know, from (inaudible) Puerto Rico, not the streets of Chicago, so I had to make my points, and Omar made his points, and you, and others, and what we learned in that process is that education was critical to everything we did, and we had to educate people to be a part of that movement. So, I had to find a way of taking people that were very undisciplined [00:43:00] and getting them to sit put for a little bit to do some reading. And then, we had to prepare modules that were not too long, you know, that were short enough so that people could read [it then?] and get into it. You could not expect people to read books, whole books. Some of us had to read the whole books, and we had to summarize it for others. So, we had classes to do that. And what my impression of that group is that, while it would take a long time because we 24 �had this vision -- we’re gonna be here doing this for the next 30 years, that kind of thing. Well, we had this vision of a movement that would continue to grow, very much like the movement in Puerto Rico had grown from something very undisciplined in the ’40s and ’50s to something very disciplined in the ’60s, that we could get there. And so, we had to develop tools to do that, and that’s -- the newspaper did that. The courses did that, and a bunch of thinking, [00:44:00] planning meetings. Boy, we came up with these planning meetings all the time, and we would sit around, and talk, and argue, and think about what’s next because that was part of our growth. Okay? And we would discuss what the Black Panthers were doing and the other party was doing, but we all learned through that process. JJ: And [were you?] using some of the Panther newspapers and films, or --? LB: Yeah. We were using some of that. We would look to, you know, the (inaudible) [of this world?]. We would look to the Angela Davises of this world and others as sort of like models that would teach us some things, and then we would read about them [raising up angry?], and they’d publish a newspaper, and we would read their paper. And we had a number of students that used to come around from the University of Chicago and other places to volunteer and help out, and we learned from those folks [00:45:00] too. Like, I remember I wrote a paper on the history of the Puerto Rican independence movement, and I wrote it in Spanish, and then it had to be translated into English, so the students from the University of Chicago help us translate that article. Okay? And it got into different kinds of things, like another version of the article got into the Journal of 25 �Puerto Rican Thought, and that’s when I met people that were editing sort of a scholarly journal of Puerto Rican intellectuals all over the country, and I found myself -- an article that I wrote -- in there, and you were like, “Wow.” But it came from a street movement, and people were recognizing that we can contribute to the sort of philosophizing and intellectual knowledge of our communities as they were growing. JJ: Okay. Okay, you said Milwaukee, and you moved to Milwaukee. [00:46:00] What was the reason for that? LB: I moved to Milwaukee because I felt the movement was changing here. Okay? Cha-Cha [had left. We were underground?]. There were more internal battles within the organization, and I thought at that moment that I had been to Milwaukee already. They had brought me to Milwaukee to speak to a group, and there was a very -- you know, a good movement in Milwaukee. It was very Puerto Rican, Mexican, everybody mobilizing in that community, and -- JJ: Did you know people there at all? LB: I knew a family. My family was there. I had an aunt who was married there. [I had that?] uncle, and I had cousins. And then, I was taken there by a group of folks because students and people from the community took over the University of Wisconsin, and they took me [00:47:00] over to a -- sort of like it was a consultation, you know? And a number of us went, and we discussed the takeover. Then, I came back to Chicago, and they took over [in?] Wisconsin. And then, right after that, I was asked to go to Milwaukee to speak, and I decided that Milwaukee would be a place for me to move to, mostly because Milwaukee 26 �had been a socialist community for many years. They had had socialist mayors until the 1960s, so Milwaukee was just coming out of a socialist stage. It’s a social democratic stage. There was a lot of community-based organizations and movements. It was really different from Chicago. You had (inaudible) asking people that -- shoot to kill and very extremely repressive, very nasty. People scatter all over the place, underground, running away from what was really a very [00:48:00] oppressive movement. The Milwaukee activity was a lot -- flourishing. Okay? Developing. People coming from the southwest of Milwaukee a lot, from Puerto Rico, and there were all kinds of organizations -- civil rights organizations -- following mostly Father Groppi at that time, who was an icon of the desegregation movement in Milwaukee. And I remember finding myself in some of these [things?]. I remember sitting in a meeting, and, on one side, I have Jane Fonda, and the other one, you know, I had some of the people from Father Groppi and that kind of stuff. So, I felt that I was being a part of something very significant there, and why I moved there -- I didn’t want to leave the Young Lords’ idea behind. I thought that it was a good thing. How do we bring it to other cities? Okay? [00:49:00] How do we expand the Young Lords from being a Chicago-based group that’s gone through up and downs but that needs to continue also in places where some of us that were in the Young Lords went to? So, I started [in our?] chapter in Milwaukee, and the newspaper that was being published here, then, I took it to Milwaukee with me because I got connected to a local newspaper in Milwaukee called La Guardia, and La Guardia was a Chicano newspaper. They needed a Spanish editor, and I could be the Spanish editor, so 27 �I became Spanish associate editor of La Guardia, and Lalo Valdez the English editor of La Guardia. And then, other people that were in the movement -Milwaukee, at that time, connected to Crystal City, Texas, where a lot of things were happening. JJ: What part of Milwaukee were you based? LB: I was in the South Side of Milwaukee and based -- the work I did was in that newspaper, and that [00:50:00] offered me the opportunity to bring the Young Lords into that setting. And then, the community-based organizations that were very close to what we were doing -- I ended up directing a community-based organization and doing the same thing that I was doing with the Young Lords. JJ: [At that time?]? LB: Yeah. JJ: During -- LB: During 1971. Doing the same thing that I was doing with the Young Lords in Chicago, sort of transferring that to Milwaukee, creating study groups. People will sit around, all these young people, you know, and they used to have, like, 20 people, and I was in the middle of these 20 people, discussing what is to be done [by learning?] and what is -- having people read different kinds of things. And then, I (inaudible), you know, [when I did?] the political stuff because I had an interest in literature, and I had done a lot of literature when I was in Borinquen. We had a literary circle, and we read Latin American literature [00:51:00] and all of that, and, in Milwaukee, I had the opportunity because, mostly, they were students. They were students in high school and students in college, unlike gang 28 �members in Chicago for a while that politicized themselves. Okay? So, I was able to say, “We got to read Gabriel García Márquez, and we got to read something from Guatemala, and we’re gonna have (inaudible) or the antiimperialist novels (inaudible),” and all of that stuff. I was able to do that and assign people to read these books that we had not read in Chicago but that people were now getting involved in writing about it and things like that. And the movement in Milwaukee as we saw it was we come in also more politicized, okay? In a different way from Chicago. It was just -- more community organizations [00:52:00] were sprouting everywhere, and they were growing, and I was running -- at the age of 24, I was running a community-based organization, and, for me, that was like, wow, you know? JJ: What was the name of that? LB: Yeah, Centro Nuestro. JJ: Centro -- okay. LB: Centro Nuestro, which I remember because I use as a base when Cha-Cha came to town and other Young Lords came to town, and people that were involved with the Young Lords nationally, we could come to town and now had a place to meet. I had a facility, so I could engage people in different kinds of meetings [allowing?] more of the larger thinking, the intellectual stuff, [where?] I keep on doing the basics (inaudible) community. I mean, welfare reform, health, those kinds of things that were affecting people the most, connecting people to jobs and things like that. And that helped me grow a lot. Because of that network, I met people that [00:53:00] were involved with the university because 29 �of the takeover at the university, and I became co-chair of something called the Council for the Education of Latin Americans with Roberto Hernández. There’s a center now in Milwaukee named after him because he died of a heart attack some years ago. And I was creating structures within the university to help increase Latino students to go to college, and we created a center there. And then, I started working with parents in the community because they were mobilizing, and there were these mass meetings about bilingual education in the schools. We need to get more bilingual services in the schools. Our kids are going to these schools that don’t understand them. And, all of a sudden, I found myself in front of these massive movements, and I remember going -- there are articles in La Guardia in Milwaukee and in the newspapers in the Historical Society, where I appear, [00:54:00] speaking before the school board and surrounded by this mass of parents and saying, “We’re not gonna go anywhere. We’re gonna take over the school district unless you do this, and this, and this, and that,” and reach an agreement with them on that. And that sort of prompted me to a position of friendship with people that were concerned about the university structures, and I was recruited to be part of a group that put together some alternative schools in Milwaukee, alternative schools for Latinos, and for whites, and for Blacks, and it was a form of integration, even though we had our own schools. And the university hired me to do some of that under a project that they had and sent me to school. So, my studies were being paid while I continued to do community work because it was a more progressive university system. There was a [00:55:00] progressive dean there, and there were people 30 �that -- sort of helping you, like Ricardo Fernández, who is now the president of Lehman College. JJ: Which college? LB: Lehman College in the Bronx in New York. So, he was -- JJ: Okay. He was working with you there? LB: Yup. At that time, he was in the school of education, director of the Spanish Speaking Outreach Institute, and sort of extremely helpful and sort of like a mentor, you know, saying, “You got to go to school. You got to take those credits from the University of Puerto Rico and bring them here, the credits you did, and I’ll get you connected to some of the people in the school to see if you can get a degree.” And then, I completed a bachelor’s degree, and, when I completed a bachelor’s degree within the university and they sort of saw you in the community, and moving in the masses, and stuff like that, they said, “Can you teach courses regarding that movement and what you’re doing?” I said, “Yeah, sure.” So, I started teaching courses at the University of [00:56:00] Wisconsin. I [had to be?] teaching courses at the University of Wisconsin. And then, Dr. Fernández and Dr. Adrian Chan, who were at the university at that time, said, “Somebody like you shouldn’t do a master’s degree. You should go right to the PhD.” And I said, “How am I gonna do that?” They said, “Well, challenge the university.” And I became the first student to challenge the University of Wisconsin on the issue that I didn’t have to do a master’s degree to go into a doctoral program. And so, there were all kinds of meetings, and arguments, and discussions about -- but these people stood behind me, and I was sort of like the 31 �poster boy, you know? [You sort of like to?] push, and I kept on saying, “I can do it. I can do it.” And they had me take these exams and all these exams, and I passed them all, and they were interesting because the questions they gave me were about union movements and -- so, I knew that stuff. I was able to write extensively about it. And [00:57:00] then, I went directly into a PhD program and finished a doctorate degree, but it was totally paid for. I mean, I wrote the proposal that brought the money to the University of Wisconsin. JJ: [The what?]? LB: For five people to go into a doctoral program to become bilingual educators, and I was one of them. I wrote myself into the proposal. So, everything was paid through that proposal, and the federal government provided resources to increase the number of Latinos that went into bilingual education, and I was one of them. So, that’s how I managed to get a doctorate degree. JJ: When was this? When --? LB: This was in the 1970s, late 1970s, and I finished -- you know, it took me about 15 years to finish a PhD because I was active in the community. So, I started, in the ’80s, doing the courses. I did all the courses in a couple years for the PhD, but then, to complete the [00:58:00] dissertation took me longer because I wanted to do -- I had this community thing in me, so I wanted to do a community-based dissertation, and my advisor kept on saying, “You’re crazy. No. Do something fast and get it out of the way.” I said, “No, no. I want to interview people in different parts of the country about educational movements in the communities and what people did. So, as part of my dissertation, I went to California, 32 �interview people that were in street movements of parents changing the schools, and I went to Texas and did the same thing, to New York, to Boston, here in Chicago. That took me all over the country, raising money so I could -- getting inside an old car, and driving all the way to New York, and going to the South Bronx, for example, and meeting Evelina Antonetty, who, at that time, had taken over the New York Board of Education, and this lady was like a [big mama?], you know. She was like the South -- there are streets named after Evelina [00:59:00] Antonetty in the South Bronx now since she died, but she became like a mentor, you know? She would call me, “Oh, you little [communist?], shut up,” and she would tell me what to do and all that kind of stuff. And then, I would go -- I remember, met with a group of parents in Boston, and they asked me to go out of the room for a little bit. They needed to talk among themselves, and it was to check me out. Okay? And then, some people talk -- “Is he a parent? Does he know something about parents? How come he talks that way? You’re a student at the university.” And, no, they [arranged?], and they brought me back, and they said, “Okay.” And then, I became part of parental movements, educational movements, university movements -JJ: Parental like PTA, or...? LB: No, we organized our own organizations. They were different from PTAs in the sense that they were community grown. They were moms and pops, Latinos that [01:00:00] were concerned about the education of their kids, and we had committees all over the place, and we went all over the country, doing that. I remember coming to Chicago to meet with some parent groups here and 33 �meeting people in Cleveland, Ohio that were involved in educational stuff, and having people in Cleveland, for example. There were two women, [Nati Pagan?] and Daisy Rivera, who were extremely involved in educational issues since their time in Boston. They were involved in the Boston desegregation case with Harvard University law students of Puerto Rican descent. And, you know, now, these universities had Latinos, and you got these Latinos involved, and they became very sophisticated, so they developed a bilingual movement in Cleveland, and they asked me to go to meet with the parents about the strategies that we used in the Milwaukee case. Okay? Because, in [01:01:00] Milwaukee, we had to reach agreements with the school district on bilingual education. And so, that helped me a lot because I knew, through this network, people that were really, really smart and who were grassroot. They were people from the street. They were people who had built movements, not because they were members of PTAs or PTOs. They were people who believed in community control of the schools, and the community control movement was something that had been big in the ’60s. Well, in the early ’70s, it was really big in many of our communities all over the country. So -JJ: And what did that mean, community control? What was that? LB: Well, it meant that, even in communities like Milwaukee, where we were less in numbers, we were growing faster. We knew something about data, about evidence. We knew that our kids were gonna really be part [01:02:00] of that power structure at some point, and we wanted to humanize them so that they wouldn’t be part of the corporate world, you know, smashing us when they got to 34 �the top. And the movements that evolved to do that had to be people’s movement, a democratic movement, and we had to argue that, if the schools didn’t do certain things for us, we had to do it for ourselves. So, that’s why we created [alternative?] schools. That’s why we created education movements in the community. We used to write for grants and seek foundation money to create institutes of parent growth, parent development, and things like that, and that sort of put us in a situation of a lot of community power. So, when I went to the school board, for example, in 1974, I appeared before the school board to argue what we came up with in terms of a bilingual [01:03:00] movement in the school district that we felt would empower the parents in the community, and there would be a closer link between community and the schools where the kids went to. And then, they told me that they didn’t think that they could do that, and I could stand before a school and say, “Well, if you can’t agree to this, next week, at this date, at 10 o’clock in the morning, we’re gonna ask all Latino students in all of the schools of Milwaukee to walk out. Okay?” And they look at me like, “Eh,” you know. That day, they had these parents organize with (Spanish) [01:03:38] and all this stuff in the parks, and, at 10 o’clock, the doors opened, and all the Latino kids from all the schools came marching out. We had this big event. [The workers were a part?], and the parents were serving food to their own kids, and the police came, but why would they attack kids? It was like they had to be careful about that because the press was [01:04:00] there. And so, we saw that as a great victory. We told the public schools, “You see? When we want, we tell kids to walk out. They’re gonna walk out, so you’re gonna sit at the 35 �table with us.” And they sat at the table with us, and, three days later, we came up with a bilingual plan in Milwaukee, and the bilingual plan became the base for parent groups all over the country to say, “They did it in Milwaukee. We can do it here too.” JJ: And what’s the basis of the bilingual plan or education? LB: It’s taken an interesting in number of years. We reached an agreement with Milwaukee Public Schools in May 7, 1974. ’74. Okay? Then, we increased the population of Latinos working in the public schools and the level of parental involvement and parental participation. And, whenever you do that, you know, the people you bring into these positions at the [01:05:00] university or at the community level -- you have a number of people that become more comfortable and don’t become part of a movement, but you have a number of people that stay with it, and we stayed with it over the years, and we’ve reached a point, after almost 30 years, where, now, we can go to the public schools and say, “Milwaukee, Wisconsin was always supportive of the idea of language education because of us, okay? Because we created a consciousness, and we had German immersion schools, and French immersion schools, and Italian, and bilingual programs for Hispanics, and all of that. Why don’t we go to the next step now? Why don’t we rebrand Milwaukee as a city that embraces the idea that everybody should be bilingual?” And you have a superintendent of schools that says, “That makes sense. That makes sense.” You’re no longer dealing now with the resistance that you would find before. You have a school board that says, “That makes sense,” [01:06:00] and you appear before a committee of the 36 �board, and you tell them about this idea, and you get a unanimous vote by a school saying, “We should do that. We should try to move all of the schools in our system to become bilingual schools. Let’s start somewhere.” So, we’re at a point right now where bilingualism and the idea that kids in this country, poor kids, kids from the community, like rich kids, whose parents send them to other countries for immersion in another language, or their schools teach them multiple languages, now we can say poor kids, when they go to a school, their language doesn’t need to be suppressed, their native language. They can retain their language, grow that language, and become bilingual, and a global economy, that needs bilingual folks. Okay? And so, we’re at that point in the Milwaukee movement. Now, we can coordinate with the [01:07:00] city council, the superintendent of schools, with the school board, with community groups, parent groups, the bilingual teachers, you know, who are now looking at us as -- they’re not that crazy. This makes sense. So, the Wisconsin Association for Bilingual Education creates something that they call the Tony Baez Leadership and Advocate Award for the state of Wisconsin so that only people that do what I’m doing in education can get that award. Those are significant things. That’s not about me. It’s about the fact that you stay with it through these years, and people recognize that your involvement was really about humanizing how we do things here and taking our time so that, now, we can say, because of our population, the size of our population now we’ve grown, you know, it makes a lot of logical sense to [01:08:00] have this kind of stuff. But there’s been a growth, and people are also more educated about it, and now, we have more educators. 37 �I mean, the University of Wisconsin, Marquette University, Cardinal Stritch, they all want in it. Milwaukee Area Technical College [has scholars, see?]. And these scholars are saying, “Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Can we be part of this [committee?]? Can we be part of this effort?” So, we develop a memorandum of understanding so that all these institutions can sign to it and say, “We’re gonna grow the number of Latinos teaching in these different areas so that we can support the idea that Milwaukee should be a bilingual town.” JJ: Now, is that related to -- you were talking earlier about -- LB: Absolutely. JJ: -- the alderman --? LB: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It’s related to the idea that -- JJ: Someone just got elected or something? LB: Exactly. It’s related to the idea that -- JJ: Who got elected? LB: José Pérez got elected alderman in the 12th District in Milwaukee. [01:09:00] But all I’m saying is that you sort of start somewhere. You develop an understanding, a commitment, a passion for doing certain kinds of things. You grow, and you affect other people around you, right? And the people that are around you start doing things. So, José Pérez is the son of (inaudible), who used to be the principal of one of our two language schools. And so, he’s part of a second generation, so you saw him grow since he’s little, and his commitment to community is more along the lines of, you know, “I care about this. I grew up here. My mom was involved in these movements.” Okay? And his mom worked 38 �closely with who today is the president of the teachers’ union. Okay? So, you have all these connections, and everybody knows everybody, and the person that’s on the school board right [01:10:00] now was a member of -- his wife was the movement that organized from 9to5. JJ: Who is this person? LB: Larry Miller. His wife was Ellen Bravo, who wrote a book about women working from nine to five and developing a national movement, and she appears in 60 Minutes, and NBC, and all that stuff. So, you have all these people who were part of movements in the ’60s and ’70s, were affected by it, developed the passion for it, and are now sort of friends, and connected, and coming together, and you can say to José, “Not only is your district going to be affected by this bilingual plan, but there are people as high as the White House [that will be?] part of your kitchen cabinet to help you think through this.” Okay? And people that are connected in political circles all over the country [01:11:00] are going to be part of that thinking. JJ: Okay. Any final thoughts? LB: I think that the lesson that I’ve learned from all of this is that, when you become part of a movement in your youth, if you are not participating in that movement sort of from the outside, when you’re part of it, you’re in it, you grow with it. And the movements in this country change. They have to change because of the circumstances, and the population, and how we become involved, and, as we become older, we also get connected to jobs because we have to live and work, and you have kids, and now I have grandkids and children, and all of that -- 39 �JJ: What are your children’s names? LB: They’re in Milwaukee, and -- JJ: What are their names? LB: The older one is [Luis?], who is [01:12:00] very involved in the whole thing of health. Okay? [Pablo?], who is highly involved in the Milwaukee community, works for the American Society for Quality, has two beautiful girls that are Chicano (inaudible), you know, and Luis has married to an African American woman, so he married African American, my other son married a Chicano, and my daughter married African American, and she has children too. And so, all of these kids are connected to what they see their grandfather doing, and, even though they don’t follow what you’re doing, they’re generating their own flow of things, and I think that what happens too is that, when you are part of a movement, you want to leave that with other people, so I mentor a lot of people. A lot of people. And, throughout the years, you learn how to be more [01:13:00] sensitive, more understanding, but still pushing positions of more community empowerment, community control, developing leaders who don’t look at how deep their pockets are, but how they’re connected to communities. So, if I get involved in succession training, I take to my home people who I know are promising leaders in the community, young folks, and I feed them. I cook for them, do all of that stuff, and put the food away and say, “Now, we’re gonna talk.” And you spend time talking with them, and they sort of think of you as this grandpa that was involved in some of these things, and now, I was trying to [leave with them?] before I disappear so that the next generation, you know, 40 �carries that forward. So, we have to think time-wise that this is something that’s not gonna end now and that all of us that [01:14:00] were involved in the ’60s and the ’70s, we lived experiences that we have to share with others, and those experiences made us stronger, and more passionate, and more responsible, and having the community integrity. And so, we have to pass that on to other people because the people today did not live the civil rights movements and these community struggles that we lived. Okay? They’re living something different. Now, the movements are about a different kind of civil rights. They could be about schools, but they’re also about undocumented people, and about how do we build solidarity with the African community, and how do we continue with those struggles? So, I learned a lot about that, and I think -- I’d write about it. I speak to people. I became more [techy?] about it, and, in my presentations wherever I go, I try to inspire others to do likewise so that [01:15:00] people continue, and I think that’s the big lesson, that these are things that are gonna change over time, and we change over time, but we have to give to others so that others start doing the kinds of things that we believe in because making change and transforming a society like this one takes a long time. That’s what you learn. It takes a very long time. Okay? So -JJ: Now, you’re talking about getting income (inaudible) for survival and all that. LB: Mm-hmm. JJ: Where do you work now? LB: Right now, I’m the executive director of the Council for the Spanish Speaking in Milwaukee. The Council is an organization that is the oldest Latino-serving 41 �organization in the state of Wisconsin. Okay? And it’s best known for having developed, since the ’60s, an agenda with poor and working-class people. And so, that was closer to me. Not organizations that wanted to build [01:16:00] a Latino middle class or to engage more Latinos in the corporate sector, you know, or in corporations and professionals getting up there somewhere else on boards and things like that. No, this organization was about poor people, and poor people’s movements, and mobilizing to improve the lives of people. Okay? And I was a provost at the Milwaukee Area Technical College, and -JJ: [What is provost?]? LB: Yeah, provost is a vice president of academic affairs, and there are co-provosts in many universities because, by legislation, they are independent from presidents. Okay? That means that you control the academic agenda of a university. Okay? And the president will try to tell you what to do sometimes, but the only way he can get around that is by firing you. Because you have [01:17:00] protection, you can -- the academic freedom is there. And I was provost of the Milwaukee Area Technical College, which is the third largest technical college in the country, so I had 160 partners under my supervision, and that was huge. You know, a kid from the Barrio Borinquen that goes through this process in the streets and marching, and, all of a sudden, he’s inside a university, a two-year college at that point, and then also teaching in four-year colleges and university systems, and you earn a certain level of respect when you enter a position like that. At one point, I was the highest-level Latino educator in the state of Wisconsin. And so, you get into circles with white folks 42 �that are in these other committees and things like that, and you can argue your point, and you can humanize curriculum that affects a whole state or that affects the education of [workers in?] [01:18:00] the whole country. Okay? You can do that. So, the White House has a Latino education excellence agenda, and they have staff related to that, but they know that, when they call Milwaukee, they can call me because I was a provost. I have legitimacy now. Okay? And I am involved in educational circles. So, they will call me. He says, “What do you think about this? What do you think about that?” And it’s government calling you, or somebody from the Department of Labor who called me just yesterday, and he says, “Look. I’m with the Department of Labor of the United States, and when --” Because I call him back in the evening, and I said, “Excuse me for calling you back so late. I was in a meeting.” He says, “No, no.” Because, when you call people that work for the president of this country, “[We need to?] hear you, and we wanted to reach you, and we are gonna have some officials coming to Milwaukee. Can you handle that?” So, now, government is sort of [01:19:00] respectful of the position you play in a particular community, and they call you for things. Not that they agree with you. It’s not an issue of agreement. So, if the White House invites me into a meeting that they have for Latinos in the White House with 150 leaders nationally, you can go into that meeting, and you can argue with the lawyers from Homeland Security and the Department of Justice, and I could say things like -- (inaudible) [this week?]. “No, that’s irrelevant, Dr. Baez, because we’re not discussing this.” “No, no, no. No, no. That is relevant.” Okay? And they go, “No, no. That’s not relevant. We’re lawyers.” I said, “I don’t 43 �care if you’re lawyers. Okay? That is relevant. I’m not gonna go back to the Latin community and say that they have to put pressure on what they’re doing, stop doing this, stop doing that, to save money, and you guys are not suing those rascals that are going away with 50 million dollar bonuses. Okay? You know why you’re not suing them?” I says, “I can tell you [01:20:00] why. ’Cause they have better lawyers than you do. So don’t pull the wool over our eyes.” Now, we can say -- in the White House, we can say that. Okay? Before, we were in the street, fighting in demonstrations. We haven’t given that up. We still do that. We still demonstrate and march. Like, the last immigrant march in Milwaukee was 80 thousand people, and I was there, marching with everybody else. But we also have standing because of our preparation, and the way we talk, and the way we read. We know what’s going on. We know the economics of Wall Street. We know the political systems and things like that. And then, you’re gonna have a university inviting me to speak before chancellors and the Department of Economics of a major university about how the economic, financial crisis is affecting Latinos. And you didn’t have that before, you know. So, they are now listening because they know that we are [01:21:00] growing as a Latino community. In the 1970s, we had no idea how big the Latino community was gonna be, but, as we see it growing now, and we see the immigration movements, and we see that the majority of the growth is because of Latinos that are citizens, that live in this country, and that, you know, the media and others are making it sound like it’s just immigrants, and stuff like that, and undocumented people, and it’s not. It’s because we are part of a change, and 44 �we’re changing the face of America, and, therefore, we need to have people that can speak and raise issues on our behalf. I remember going before the city council once, and there was somebody raising some other issues, and, “Well, he doesn’t represent the Latin community,” and one of the aldermen said, “Oh, no, no. He does. He does. He is one of those --” And an alderman said this [in there?]. He says, “He is one of those people in the community who earned, [01:22:00] throughout the years, the respect, and we have to hear what he has to say. He may come here and say he doesn’t represent the community, but he’s here because he’s a Latino, okay? So, you listen to him.” And that’s sort of like, wow, somebody’s understanding on the other side that you don’t represent everybody in the community, but you can speak with a certain level of authority about the history of a community [in exchange?]. JJ: So, final thoughts, but the Young Lords -- what do you think their contribution was to this whole --? LB: Growth that they helped me develop a passion like I never would have had if I hadn’t been part of that movement. I was at the University of Puerto Rico, developed a certain type of passion there. Okay? But, when I came to the Young Lords, I developed a sort of -- I built upon that passion. Okay? [01:23:00] Now, from student bodies, I saw community folks trying, and working, and developing, and you go like, “Wow. All these people that died because of this and the people that tried their best in spite of the fact that they didn’t have all the tools available to them --” So, as you acquire more tools and you diversify, you go like, “Wow. I’m growing because of a perspective, you know, a way of looking 45 �at the world that I developed when I was a member of that organization,” and the Young Lords helped me do that because I became active in that. So, for example, while in the 1960s and the early 1970s, I didn’t play the guitar or sing. When I started doing that -JJ: I remember your guitar. LB: Yeah. When I started doing that and developing that, in my own barrio, I’m a nobody because people there -- my brother’s a master musician, so, you know. But, [01:24:00] in Milwaukee, there was nobody doing songs of social political content. Okay? And I had that perspective because of the movement and the Young Lords. So, when I started developing that, and playing, and appearing in a concert -- all of a sudden, I’m in a concert, doing a concert before a whole mess of people, and then being invited to do a concert in [New Orleans?], and California, and New York, and places like that -- you are singing before large masses of people and crowds, and I sang before masses of three, four thousand people, like singing before the mariachi festival in Tucson, Arizona in the late 1970s. When I did that, there were thousands and thousands of people there, listening to mariachis, but they heard the singing of this lone guitarist, you know, conveying a message of transformation, peace, of revolution. [01:25:00] And you now have a forum, but you developed that. I could have gone into salsa, and (inaudible) stuff. Other people were doing that. No, I had to do something different that pertained to what I knew, and that was because of how I was affected by the Young Lords movement, by a community movement, and, throughout the years, staying with it. Yeah. 46 �JJ: Okay. Any final thoughts? LB: I think I said it all. [Thanks?]. JJ: All right, Tony. Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 47 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4306fb22aa487da3aa251cd6801a0d0f.mp4 1e0c6029a26f559db9f4bf7cd4d439b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Luis "Tony" Baez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía e independencia movimientos Activistas comunitarios--Wisconsin--Milwaukee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Baez_Luis Title A name given to the resource Luis "Tony" Baez video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baez, Luis Description An account of the resource Luis "Tony" Baez arrived in Chicago from Barrio Borinquén of Caguas, Puerto Rico in 1969 and soon became Minister of Education of the Young Lords. In Puerto Rico, Dr. Baez was also active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP), the electoral component of the broad movement in Puerto Rico, fighting for Puerto Ricans to regain back control of their nation. By 1970, Dr. Baez moved from Chicago to Milwaukee and set up a Young Lords chapter. They maintained a community office and distributed the Young Lords Newspaper (that Dr. Baez had also helped to publish while in Chicago), focusing primarily on neighborhood organizing, community-based programs, and bilingual education. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Community activists--Wisconsin--Milwaukee Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0527a8a8c990dcd9e0cedc0c864e02bc.pdf 4c68b025e9205ede9433992bbe1d9b07 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carol Blakely Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/19/2012 Runtime: 01:53:23 Biography and Description Oral history of Carol Blakely, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on October 19, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Testing one, two, three. Testing one, two, three. Go ahead and say something. CAROL CORONADO: Hello. How are you? (break in audio) JJ: Okay. Go ahead and say something. CC: Hello. How are you? JJ: Testing one, two, three. Testing one, two, three. (break in audio) Okay, now Carol, give me your name and where you were born. CC: Okay. My name is Carol [Coronado?]. I was born in Chicago, Illinois on March 11, 1942. I lived in Lake View. JJ: When you were born? CC: When I was born, we lived in Lake View which is right at Roscoe and Broadway. JJ: Okay. Right around Roscoe and Broadway, that area? CC: Right. JJ: Okay, and your parents. What were their names? CC: My mother’s name was [Evelyn?] and my father’s name was [Ross?]. I have one sister who’s older. Her name is [Patricia?]. I have a brother who’s 20 [00:01:00] months younger. His name is [Ross, Jr.?]. JJ: Okay. And did you had a sister and a brother you said so they are... Where are your parents from? 1 �CC: Okay. My father was born in McKeesport, Pennsylvania which is right near Pittsburgh. My mother was born in Chicago on the South Side. I’m not exactly sure where but it was on the South Side. JJ: What type of work did they do? CC: Pardon me? JJ: What type of work did they do? CC: Okay. My father was a produce manager for A&P and my mother was a cashier and bookkeeper for A&P, also. JJ: Okay. So they did that for most of their life or...? CC: Yes, yes. JJ: And what about your sisters and brother -- brother and sister? CC: My sister got married and had four children. My brother, he worked at a printing company in, oh, McHenry, Illinois and he just retired from there. And me, I’ve had several jobs. (laughs) [00:02:00] I worked in the bank in the accounting department. I worked for ACNielsen as a comptometer operator. I was an AT&T telephone operator for a while. For the last 30 years, I’ve been a security guard with Securitas. I was 12 years at Bell Laboratories in Naperville and 18 years at General Mills in West Chicago. Right now, I just work three days a week at a gated community in Plainfield on a public golf course. I have a gate house and I let people into play golf. Yeah. JJ: Now you said you were born at Lake View. CC: Lake View. JJ: Did you grow up there, too, or...? 2 �CC: Yes, I grew up there. I went to Nettlehorst Grammar School and Lake View High School. JJ: Oh, you went to Lake View High School. CC: Lake View High School. JJ: Nettlehorst Grammar School, where is that? CC: That’s at Broadway [00:03:00] and Aldine. And then Lake View was Irving Park and Ashland. JJ: What was that like? What was Nettlehorst like? CC: Nettlehorst? It was -- JJ: Now, did you go to eighth grade? CC: Through eighth grade and I graduated. JJ: So can you kind of describe that for us? The community and how...? CC: The community was -- all right. I lived a block off Lake Shore Drive, all right? So if you lived on this side of Broadway, you were working-class people. This side of Broadway, it was very rich people. JJ: So the west side of Broadway was working class? CC: Was working class, yeah. JJ: And the east side was rich people? CC: Was very -- yeah, very rich people. (laughs) JJ: And did people talk about that, or...? CC: Yes and no. When I went to school, mostly the kids that went there were Jewish. There were only -- like in a class of, say, 30, there were 11 [00:04:00] of us that were Protestant or Catholic. 3 �JJ: Mm-hmm. So you’re a Protestant? CC: I’m Protestant –- a Presbyterian. JJ: Oh, Presbyterian. CC: Yeah. And so -- JJ: Your parents, too? Your parents? CC: But we kind of like -- yes, my -- oh, see, that’s the thing. My father was Irish Catholic. My mother was Lutheran. We were baptized Presbyterian because my aunt, my uncle’s wife, was in charge of the cradle roll at (inaudible) Presbyterian Church and so we were baptized Presbyterian. We had kind of a strange family. (laughs) JJ: So what -- wasn’t that [Angris?]? What years are we --talking about (crosstalk) -- CC: That was from 1942 till I’d say ’54, I would say. JJ: So from 1932 -- CC: Forty-two. JJ: Forty-two. CC: (laughs) JJ: Sorry, oh I’m sorry. Nineteen forty-two to -- CC: Say, ’54. JJ: [00:05:00] –- to ’54. You’re talking about –- that’s the eighth grade? The first eighth grade? CC: Oh, no. Oh, the eighth grade. I started school when I was six so I went from ’48 to ’56. Nineteen forty-eight to 1956. To Nettlehorst, yeah. 4 �JJ: And then what type of neighborhood? What was the population? And what type of neighborhood? CC: And then I graduated. Okay. It was mainly white working-class. There were no Blacks in the neighborhood. We had -- like I said, it was an all-white neighborhood. JJ: You’re talking about all of Lake View or just that area? CC: That area that I was from. Yeah. JJ: Yeah. Was it all white? CC: All white. Yeah. JJ: Was it ethnic whites? I mean, were they like Irish, Italian? CC: Irish, Italian, German. Yeah. Jewish. Uh, yeah. And then in the ‘50s -- oh, I’m trying to think. In 19-- I would say ‘54 or something, we had a lot of Puerto Ricans come [00:06:00] to the neighborhood. So the neighborhood changed; We had a lot of Puerto Ricans there. JJ: Okay. So 1954, around there? CC: About ’54. Yeah. Because I was about 12, 13. Yeah. JJ: And so what happened when the Puerto Ricans came? How did you feel? CC: Oh. We had a good time, you know? And there were -- (laughs) as a young woman, there were some really good-looking guys. So we were happy (laughs) they were in the neighborhood. I don’t know if you want me to say that, but that’s -- yeah. Yeah, and we -- JJ: So you didn’t have any problem with them. CC: No. 5 �JJ: What about the guys? That’s the girls, but what about the guys? CC: The guys got along fine and they integrated with us. We all got along. I can’t remember any problems with, you know, every –- JJ: Is Aldine -- is that like around Halsted or Addison? CC: No. Aldine is -- okay. You know where Belmont is? JJ: Right. Oh, yeah. CC: All right. Aldine is two blocks north of Belmont so I lived in between [00:07:00] Addison and Belmont on Roscoe Street. JJ: Oh, that’s Roscoe. Roscoe runs the same way. Does it go by [Halsted?]? CC: Roscoe runs east and west. JJ: Does it go...? Oh. CC: And it ended at -- okay. JJ: And Aldine goes north and south. CC: I lived on Broadway. At the end of the street if you walked down to the next street, that was Halsted Street. Yeah, that was Halstead Street. And then Clark Street came also a little farther up. So -- JJ: Okay. So this area [ancestry?] is Puerto Rican and you didn’t have any problem? CC: No problems or anything. No problems. JJ: (crosstalk) the schools? CC: They went to school, yeah. And they hung -- we hung around together and stuff. JJ: Now, when you say it was turning Puerto Rican, was it a lot of Puerto Ricans? CC: Yeah, several -- a whole lot of Puerto Ricans. You probably could tell me more of the history of Puerto Rico. But that’s when the Puerto Rican community started 6 �coming into our neighborhood. Yeah. And I said we had no -- I mean, they lived across the street from me and stuff. And I get -JJ: [00:08:00] Your background is part Irish? CC: I’m Irish, German, Norwegian. I am Irish. My maiden name was [Curley?]. That’s about as Irish as you can get, so yeah. JJ: All right. Okay. So you were Irish. And so what was it like for a woman to grow up? A girl to grow up at that time? Did you stay at home or like (crosstalk) –- CC: Well, no, I hung out. We all hung out on the streets and stuff. And we played marbles (laughs) and -- JJ: Oh, you played marbles? CC: Marbles and pinners, a game called pinners. And I played baseball because I was a bit of a tomboy. So I climbed fences and my mother used to get really upset because I would rip out my blue jeans and stuff. Yeah, so -- but no, we -everybody -- you knew everybody. You knew your neighbors. Like today, it’s not like that [00:09:00] I don’t think. I don’t know the people that live here on this side of me because they’re new, okay? And I did know the people who lived in this house next to me when we first moved here. However, everybody knew everybody’s business and all the kids, you know what I’m saying? We all hung out together. But I wouldn’t call us a -- we never got into any kind of trouble trouble. We just all played until we got to be teenagers. Then we started to get into like drinking and stuff. Doing things. Doing things we shouldn’t have done. JJ: Drinking and was that all, or...? 7 �CC: No, drinking and some of us, not myself personally, (laughs) but stealing cars and stuff like that. Yeah. JJ: Oh, I see. Joy riding. Were you -- CC: Joy riding, yeah. JJ: So there was joy riding and -- CC: [00:10:00] Right. JJ: -- at the time. What year was that? CC: That was like 1956. Yeah, ’56, ’57. Yeah. And we -- JJ: Okay. Was there -- CC: And we -- JJ: Oh, I’m sorry, go ahead. CC: Oh, no. Go ahead. Also, we -- then we started forming gangs and we would fight with peop-- (laughs) We found with Lemoyne School which was over there -Addison and Southport I believe is what it -- yeah. They didn’t come into our school year -- JJ: Oh, you mean by Halstead, no? By –- CC: Yeah. Right across from Cubs Park. Yeah. JJ: Right around the corner. Yeah. CC: But they were not allowed in our neighborhood and we didn’t go in theirs. JJ: So it was a school? CC: Yeah. JJ: It was one school against the other or what gang? What was the name of it? 8 �CC: It was the gang -- we didn’t have a name. Well, we did. The Customettes. It was called the Customettes. And the guys were called -- I can’t remember. I think somewhere around [00:11:00] this house, I have a leather jacket that has –that says Customettes on the back of it. Yeah. JJ: Oh, and that’s the woman’s group. CC: That was the women’s. JJ: So it must’ve been the Customs or something. CC: No, I can’t remember what they were called. Plus we also had in our neighborhood the -- JJ: Was it mainly...? Oh. CC: -- not the Hell’s Angels. It was a motorcycle, the Chicago Outlaws. Yeah. I got involved with them a little -- when I was little like maybe 15 and stuff. That was a motorcycle gang. JJ: So what did the Customettes do mainly? CC: Just run around with the guys. Hung around with the guys (laughs) and wear jackets. But we would get in fights. I mean, fist fights and stuff. JJ: Other women or...? CC: Women and guys. You know. Some of the women, (laughs) they could fight just as good as a guy. I mean I was [00:12:00] one of those people. Yeah. But yeah, they would come in the school yard and then it would start and then the police would get us. They would surround us. They’d come from -- one from this way and another and get us and stuff. But and then take us down to Town Hall police station where my father would have to come get us. 9 �JJ: And what would your father say? CC: He was very upset. (laughs) He was very upset. But we never did anything that got us -- though some did wind up at the Audy Home. Are you familiar with the Audy Home or...? JJ: Yeah, a little bit. CC: Or a couple of people got sent to St. Charles reform school. Yeah. JJ: These are the guys or the girls? Or the guys (crosstalk) -- CC: It was the guys. The guys and (crosstalk) some of the girls went -- I can’t remember the name [00:13:00] of the -- they’re -- okay. In Geneva, there was a woman’s and I can’t remember the name of that. JJ: Yeah, but it was in Geneva. It was (inaudible). CC: Yeah, it was in Geneva. And the boys they sent to St. Charles which was -yeah, St. Charles reform school for boys. JJ: Yeah. Was this mainly in the -- was there a lot of Puerto Ricans in your group? In this gang? Or was it mainly Irish and German? CC: We had some Puerto Ricans. It was a mixture; We had a mixture of people. We had one called [Louis Anderson?] -- he was Black. See, the Louis was the only Black person that lived in the neighborhood that I remember when I was young and he ran around with us. Yes, we had Puerto Ricans and we had -- JJ: But the people in the Lemoyne were fighting with you here. CC: They were white; mostly white. JJ: At Lemoyne? CC: Yeah. At Lemoyne, they were white. 10 �JJ: Oh. Because later, I think they had like (crosstalk) Latin -- CC: Yeah. Later, it’s all -- there’s a lot of Latins over there now, but not at that -- JJ: [00:14:00] But at that time, in ’54, it was white. CC: Yeah. Yeah. There wasn’t many. JJ: Nettlehorst and then -- CC: Lake View High School. JJ: This is Lake View High School. Okay. CC: Yeah. Now, when I got to Lake View High School, I became kind of a lady because I was getting older. So I didn’t get so much into things that were -- JJ: So when you say you were fighting in these little skirmishes -- CC: In the school yard. In the school yard. JJ: This was Lake View. You were in Lake View already. CC: No, I was at Nettlehorst. JJ: At Nettlehorst. CC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: And now you went to Lake View High School? CC: And then I went to Lake View High School and we got into -- like dating and all the stuff and I started smoking. JJ: What do you mean dating? Going out with a guy? CC: You know, guys. Going out with guys and stuff. JJ: Yeah, no, no. So the girls would -- CC: Dates and -- JJ: So a lot of dates or...? 11 �CC: Yeah, yeah. [00:15:00] And but drinking. But we also did a lot of drinking. There was a lot of drinking. JJ: So did you guys hang out on a street corner? CC: On a street corner, on a street corner. JJ: What corner was that? What corner was that? CC: At one point, it was Roscoe and Broadway. JJ: You were at Roscoe and Broadway? CC: Right, Roscoe and Broadway and the police used to come. If they said we couldn’t congregate so they would split us up and we would have to go farther down the street. But they didn’t want us there. JJ: Yeah. So the police would just come by and tell you to move? CC: Yeah, tell us to move to disassemble. (laughter) Because they feared if there were more than three of us at one time, we were going to be doing something that we weren’t supposed to do. But plus the Chicago Outlaws and there were another [00:16:00] group -- gosh, oh I can’t remember the (laughs) name of that group. It was a motorcycle gang. The girls were called the [Sabers?]. I wasn’t in that gang, but that’s who hung out. The Sabers and the -- the (inaudible)... But they really were after them. There was a lot of police after them. But they had guns and stuff. (inaudible) guns and stuff. JJ: Oh, they had guns. Were they into drugs, too, or...? CC: Drugs, yeah. JJ: Oh, so that’s why they were [after them?]. 12 �CC: I drank, but I was always a little leery of drugs though I did have friends that did drugs and stuff. I -- JJ: What kind of drugs did they do? CC: Oh, they did marijuana. I had a couple friends that were into heroin. Yeah. JJ: Hmm. Was that a big problem at that time then or...? CC: Not so much the drugs. [00:17:00] When I went to high school, yeah. We had a friend who they sent him to Kentucky. There was a dry-out center. He died of -he died -- JJ: Do you remember? CC: I can’t remember. JJ: Out of Kentucky (crosstalk) -- CC: It wasn’t Louisville. It was something like that, yeah. And he died of a drug overdose while he was there. Yeah. So you tell me how that happens, you know? But yeah, at Lake View High School, there was a lot of drugs. JJ: So how was Lake View High School? I mean, what was the population there and what...? CC: It was a mixture. There were Blacks, whites, Latinos, Orientals, yeah. JJ: Was it a rough school or...? CC: Yeah, it was a rough -- pretty rough school. Yeah. JJ: What, were there gangs or...? CC: They used to call Lake View High School the home of unwed mothers. (laughs) Yeah. Seriously, yeah. And there were a lot of [00:18:00] gangs. JJ: And what year was this? 13 �CC: This was 1956, ’57. JJ: Fifty-six, fifty-seven, there were a lot of gangs? CC: Yeah. JJ: Do you remember any of the gangs or...? CC: (sighs) (shakes head) JJ: What were the teachers like? CC: The teachers were okay. I don’t know. I was very bored in high school. I did not like high school. I quit when I was 16 and I went to [Logan Continuation School?]. I worked in the truant officer’s office (laughs) one day a week and I went to work at the A&P with my mother as a cashier. Because my mother said the only way they would let me quit school when I was 16 was to go to work. Because I wasn’t going to be hanging around with my friends on the street, I had to go to work which I did. I went to work for the A&P. However, when I was 28 years old, I took the [00:19:00] GED and passed a college entrance and went to Northeastern Illinois University at the field center -- we had a field center on Montrose and Sheridan. JJ: Okay. So you went to Northeastern? CC: Northeastern. JJ: How far did you go there? CC: I was there for a couple years because then they came and they opened a mental health center, Edgewater Uptown Mental Health Center. What they did was they hired all of us, the Young Patriots and other community groups, to be, I guess, mental health workers. See, they figured they could buy us and give us 14 �this salary. And we ran the emergency service. I worked in geriatrics for United Charities. At that time, in the ‘70s, they literally dumped people out of the mental institution and put them in [00:20:00] Uptown. Okay? In halfway houses and some in independent living. All right? So they hired a bunch of the community people to work with these people and stuff. And what I did was I worked in geriatrics. I worked with a whole lot of people who had been locked up for many years in like Manteno and Dixon. They literally just turned them out on the street and gave them apartments and they had them coming to this mental health center where they worked. Or I would go to their houses and make sure they were taking their medicine and stuff. But I got in trouble because all right, they had a psychiatrist who every person I sent in there would come out with a handful of prescriptions. I had people that I was seeing that their tongue was (puffs tongue) [00:21:00] like this because they were overmedicated and stuff. And I said that I thought [Mark Schuler?] was a pill pusher. And (laughs) I got called into his office and he asked me did I think I was a doctor? I said, “No. However, you don’t need to be a doctor to know that people are overmedicated when their tongue was swollen.” Or you’re making them -- all right. They didn’t want them to be a threat to the community. Well, they’re not a threat to anybody. They’re not -- they can barely function, some of these people. You’ve got them so medicated. They’re not a threat to themselves or anybody else. That was after the clinic -- after the Young Patriots clinic. JJ: You mentioned the Patriots. Who were they? 15 �CC: The Young Patriots, they were a street gang to begin with. They were guys, mostly guys, and they [00:22:00] were like street hustlers. They hustled people for money. They fought with guns and knives. JJ: They hustled -- who did they hustle? CC: The gay guys and stuff. They would hustle them sometimes. I really don’t want to go into detail about it but that’s -- yeah, anyway. They were hustlers. JJ: This was before you were political or...? CC: Political and then JOIN and SDS -- JJ: Before you were political. CC: Yes. And then JOIN and SDS came to the community and they got -- I don’t know because I wasn’t around them with the Patriots. But they got them -somehow, they organized them into opening up a food pantry where they give out and they talk to them and politicize these young kids. They were mostly southern [00:23:00] whites that were -- JJ: And what year was this? CC: This was in 19-- okay. It had to have been -- because I first got involved -- it was in ’66, okay? And they were around for a couple years. Maybe ’64, ’65, something like that. (crosstalk) My mother-in-law was involved with them and that’s how I got to meet them, my husband and I. They were going to do a march on Summerdale Police Station because one of the kids -- JJ: So this is after they became political. CC: Yes. JJ: So they weren’t hustling anymore? 16 �CC: They weren’t hustling any-- if they were, they weren’t telling. But I -- (laughs) but no. They were talking to people in the community, they were fighting [00:24:00] the police brutality because what happened, on Sunnydale, there was a kid -- I -and they were going to arrest him. They had in handcuffs and they shot him (laughs) in the back. Shot him. He’s on his knees on the sidewalk and they shot him to death. Said he was trying to escape arrest. JJ: And he was in handcuffs. CC: He was in hand-- behind his back. Because there was a police officer, his name was [Sam Joseph?], who was very brutal, okay? Just these kids, they would beat them up and threated to kill them. So we decided we were going to march on Summerdale Police Station with my mother-in-law and the Young Patriots. They got my husband, [Doug?] and I involved and that was my first experience with that [00:25:00] is I marched on Summerdale Police Station. I was pregnant with my son (laughs) and -- JJ: What’s your son’s name? CC: His name is [Jason?]. And yeah, I was pregnant with my son. JJ: You didn’t tell me -- did you tell me your daughter’s name? CC: Huh? JJ: Did you tell me your daughter’s name? CC: I didn’t have a daughter. JJ: Oh, you didn’t. CC: No. JJ: You just had a son. Okay. 17 �CC: A son -- I just had one son. JJ: We’re talking about brothers. CC: Yeah. Oh, I had a sister and brother. Yeah. No. JJ: Okay. What was their names? CC: Patricia and Ross. That’s my sister and my brother. But yeah, no, my son Jason. I was pregnant with my son Jason and I was marching with a sign on Summerdale Police Station (laughs) and then we started to get involved because the Patriots -- JJ: (laughs) Do you remember the sign? What it said or anything or...? CC: Sam Joseph -- get rid of Sam Joseph or something like that because he was very brutal. I mean, he was a really brutal police officer. He (laughs) and -- JJ: So you went marching with a sign, right? Were you excited? CC: With a sign, yeah. JJ: Were you excited or...? CC: Oh yeah. It was fun. I never had -- [00:26:00] because I -- I knew my mother-inlaw was into all this political stuff. My husband and I, his name was [Douglas Youngblood?], he didn’t really want to get involved because he was working at DuPont and we kind of stayed back. But once we got over there and it was with the Summerdale thing and stuff. He met Bobby Joe and Junebug and the Young Patriots and he got involved. I worked. I -- JJ: Bobby Joe and Junebug are leaders in the Young Patriots? CC: Yeah, they were like 17. Now, Doug and I were like 25 but these were like young kids -- 17, 18 years old, and -- 18 �JJ: So who was Doug making (inaudible)? (crosstalk) CC: He kind of became their spokesperson because he was a little older and he really got into it. I mean he was -- he got [00:27:00] involved. JJ: What do you mean he got into it? CC: With the police. Trying to stop the police brutality and into -- like the food. We had a food coop and we gave away clothes to -- second-hand clothes. And -- JJ: Now, was this the Young Patriots then? CC: It was the Young Patriots, yeah. JJ: They -- (crosstalk) CC: They had a little storefront. I would go there -- JJ: Where was that storefront? CC: It was right on -- it was forty-- oh, I got that address -- 4408, I believe, Sheridan Road. It was just a little storefront. And they had a clinic that wa-- now, see that all came out of JOIN when -- JOIN. But I’m trying to think. Doug was really good at writing up stuff. So they had him -- JJ: [00:28:00] (crosstalk) CC: And he became their spokesperson. I mean if you needed an article written or whatever, he was really good at the writing. JJ: He’s a writer. CC: Yeah. A writer writer and a poet -- a political poet he was, too. JJ: He got any poetry? CC: Yeah, he has some really good poetry that was published and stuff. He gave -- JJ: Is he alive? Or is he still alive? 19 �CC: No, he passed away four years ago October 5th. JJ: What happened? CC: He had cancer. He had colon cancer which it spread into his liver and he died. For about two and a half years, he survived but he passed away. And I’m trying to think. Out of that -- we had a clinic one day a week in a storefront. Then it just kind [00:29:00] of built up till we had -- we rented a whole suite of offices. In the building where the storefront was here and up above, there was like offices. We rented a whole suite of offices. We had doctors that were from Presbyterian-St. Luke, Billings Hospital, and they paid the rent on those offices. We had about 75 health workers working. We had the Visiting Nurses Association, we had medical students, fourth-year medical students, whose -- JJ: Medical students? CC: Yeah, medical students. We had people that were studying like lab technician stuff. We did our own urine testing, urine sampling, and blood tests. I learned how [00:30:00] to do a [hematocrit?] where you stick somebody in the finger and stuff. We used to take people back and forth to the hospital when they had to go. Or we would just go visit people to see if they were okay. Some were our patients and stuff. JJ: To what hospital did you take them? CC: It was Weiss Memorial and Cuneo. JJ: Mm-hmm. Did you work something out with them? CC: Yeah, we did. At Weiss Memorial, we had a guy. He was the -- what do they call that guy? The Human Resources person or... [Bob Cross?] -- his name was Bob 20 �Cross and he donated a bunch of medical equipment to us. Or they had sometimes samples of medicine. But mostly, our doctors -- I mean, we had the greatest doctors in the world. JJ: Do you remember any of them? CC: Yes. [John Wilsey?], he was in charge of an emergency room at Lutheran General. We [00:31:00] had [Gordon Lang?], he was in charge of the renal department at Pres-St. Luke’s. [Sam Jampolis?], he was at Billings in the cancer research. We had another doctor; I can’t remember his name. He did heart transplants. We had another guy, he was from Children’s Memorial Hospital. We had a bunch of people. Just I’ll tell ya. We did a lot of stuff with the community and talking to the community, but the real heroes were those doctors and those medical students, Cha-Cha. They just gave -- they volunteered their time. They paid for all those hospital -- the hospital -- all the examining rooms and stuff and they paid the rent on that suite things. Those [00:32:00] were the heroes. And they treated people -- okay. Normally if you go to a doctor, they ask you questions but you’re not really treated like a human being. But the people we had there, I mean they were treated like they’d never been treated in their lives. If they had questions, those doctors would answer any question you wanted to know. It wasn’t just a, “Take off your shirt. I’m going to get a stethoscope.” They really took an interest in people. One time, we had a -- we called it, pardon my language, “Piss on Brown.” [Murray Brown?] was in charge of the Board of Health. A lot of the problem we had in Uptown was lead poisoning because there were these slum buildings and these slumlords. They didn’t fix up these 21 �buildings. Paint was peeling and kids were getting lead poisoning from the paint. So what we did, Dr. Lang, he got a grant [00:33:00] that he said we had to collect at least 3,000 urine samples. We literally went -- besides what we did at the clinic when we came in, I went with [Dr. Jampolis?] and we literally knocked on doors and collected urine samples of people with some kids. JJ: So right at their house. CC: Right at their house. (laughs) We came out of this one building and I looked at [Sam?] and there were tears rolling down his face. I says, “Sam, what’s the matter?” He said, “I didn’t realize people had to live like that.” Paint peeling off and barely any furniture or food. The tears were rolling down his face. But what we did was we collected over 4,000 samples. We only were supposed to get 3,000 but of course, the Patriots have to do it a little better. So we got over [00:34:00] 4,000 urine samples a lot of which we did at our clinic because we did have a lab and stuff. But we took them to the Board of Health who was supposed to be doing this in the beginning and they weren’t testing for lead poisoning. Then they opened a -- JJ: So did they do it then? Did they test for -- CC: They did it then. Oh, yeah. Because Gordon Lang who is a very well-respected doctor, he did kidney transplants and stuff. They would’ve maybe messed with us but they weren’t going to mess with these doctors who were well-respected. They put up -- they tried to close our clinic down but when the Board of Health came and checked us out and checked our chart, they said we were better run than the Board of Health. Because we had everything in order. [00:35:00] We 22 �took no grants because if you take grants, you have to go by their guidelines. So everything was all voluntary. We were all self-running. We took no federal money because like I said, then they could tell you how to run it and what to do and we didn’t want to do that. But they wanted -- in order to -- okay. We only ran four nights a week. Then we started on Saturdays, we had. We were a limited number of people. So my husband Doug and the Young Patriots, they got together with some of the people in the community like [Ed Farmlat?] who was in charge of a bunch of halfway houses and some other people they talked to to try to get a public health hospital there in the area to take up the slack of what we couldn’t. We could only do so much. [00:36:00] The Board of Health decided that this group was fine and everything and they would set up and that the community could run it. That was a lie told, okay? Because when they finally got everything, then they said, “No, the community was not capable of making decisions, medical decisions,” after several years of the Patriots (laughs) running a free medical clinic without their help. So they set up this public health hospital which had been an old marine -JJ: So the hospital was saying that the community can’t run it? CC: They can’t run it. JJ: But the Patriots had run it. CC: The Patriots ran their own better than the Board of Health and better than anything they ever had. I’m not bragging but that’s the truth. JJ: Doctors were saying it, you know? 23 �CC: Yeah, the doctors. [00:37:00] But the Board of Health and the politicians. “Oh no, you can’t run your -- this public health hospital.” I had to go with [Ted Stein?] who was our attorney, the legal aid, lawyer, to the state’s attorney’s office because I was the bookkeeper and the -- to tell them about our clinic. I got there and he asked me what we did. I told him. I said, “Most of our patients are ambulatory.” Now, the state’s attorney looks me in the face and says, “How many ambulances do you have?” I said, “I have...” I really had to control myself. I said, “No, sir. Ambulatory means they’re able to walk on their own and they don’t need wheelchair access. (laughs) We have no ambulances.” (laughs) I was very proud of myself; I did not laugh out loud. [00:38:00] But when we got outside, Ted Stein said, “I can’t believe he asked that.” Yeah, he did. “How many ambulances do you have?” Well anyway, they opened this public health hospital and they were giving lousy treatment to the people in the community. I myself went there a couple weeks. Then we planned -- we were going to try to get them to stay open on weekends and longer hours because their hours were lousy and people were being turned away. So a couple weeks before that, we decided to send spies in and to see just how people were treated. I went into this doctor’s office and I described to him a urinary tract infection which I did not have. The only reason I knew all the information is from working in the clinic. They never took a urine sample from me. They never examined me. [00:39:00] I walked out of that office with two prescriptions for a urinary tract infection which I didn’t have. Then in a couple weeks, we -- on a Friday evening, we took about a hundred people there to that clinic. It was just before closing and came in there and said, 24 �“Oh, people can’t come in.” We had our doctors with us and the Visiting Nurses Association said they were going to take care of people or we were going to take over the rooms and examine the people ourself with our doctors. When we first got there, there were a whole bunch of police there waiting for us because they -it was supposed to be a secret. It was something with -- but somehow, it got out. They said if we didn’t leave, they were going to arrest us and we said we were not leaving. Then they brought seven paddy wagons [00:40:00] and arrested 43 of us of which I was 1. They arrested our doctors. Murry Brown (laughs) was down there. He was in charge of the Board of Health and said to Gordon Lang, “Please Gordon, don’t make me arrest you.” Gordon said, “If you’re going to arrest my people, you’re arresting me.” So they not only arrested the community people, they arrested a gentleman who had been the chief psychiatrist for the Air Force. They arrested the head of the renal department at Presbyterian-St. Luke’s, the person who was in charge of the cancer department at Billings Hospital, (laughs) all these people. They dropped seven paddy wagons, they arrested us, and took us to 11th and State. Then we had to go up like night court and they -JJ: Then the State is the central police station. The lockup. CC: Eleventh and State, yeah, that’s the big lockup. [00:41:00] They put us in all these cells. The thing that disturbed me about it is the men... With the women, they took away our glasses, everything from us. Plus those -- the matrons, they harassed the VNA. They did body cavity searches on them which was ridiculous. The men, they gave baloney sandwiches and let them keep their cigarettes and 25 �everything. The women, they just treated us -- they just herded us in there like cattle. There were 43 of us. So then we -- they brought us out and we had to go before a judge. They released us on our own recognizance. Okay, there were 43 of us. And when we went to court, the judge said, “Everybody arrested at 4141 [Thurman?], please come up to the front of the (laughs) front of the -- you know.” JJ: In a courtroom (crosstalk) CC: [00:42:00] Forty-three people stood up and (inaudible), “What is going on?” The VNA got in trouble, the Visiting Nurses Associa-- because they were wearing their uniforms when they got arrested. (laughter) But they were still allowed to come to our clinic, but yeah, it was funny. JJ: This protest was for what, I mean? CC: Huh? JJ: This protest was for what? CC: Because of the lousy treatment they were giving to people at that public health hospital. Their hours were not conducive to people being able to get there, they would close early, they were not open on weekends, they had no evening hours. The fact that I went in there and got two prescriptions for an infection I didn’t even have and was never examined. So they closed that place down. They did close it. It had been an old military hospital type thing. It was not quite the VA, but similar. [00:43:00] That’s what they gave us which was nothing. (laughs) Yes, I was -- okay. (laughs) My mother and my father -- my father was very proud of what I was doing. My mother was a little leery. The next day, oh. When 26 �we went to court, we got -- all they -- we got off -- it was dismissed as trespassing on public property. We were trespassing on public property. But the day after, I went to the clinic -- it was a Saturday. I was opening up the clinic and the phone, the pay phone was ringing, and it was my mother. (laughs) I said, “Hi.” She said, “Do you think that’s funny?” I said, “What are you talking about, ma?” JJ: Her name? I’m sorry. CC: Evelyn. Her name is Evelyn. I said, “What are you talking about?” JJ: What’s your father’s name again? CC: Ross. And my father, Ross. But my -- [00:44:00] (laughs), “Do you think that’s funny?” I said, “What are you talking about, Mom?” She said, “Did you see the Sun-Times this morning?” I said, “No, I just got here to the clinic so I don’t know.” She said, “Well, go buy yourself a copy of the Sun-Times.” (laughs) I said, “All right.” So I went downstairs and I got a copy of the Sun-Times. Right on the front page is me in the paddy wagon smiling. (laughs) JJ: Hmm. Oh, your mom was angry. CC: Oh, she was upset that I’d been arrested. I mean, she liked the idea of the clinic and then oh, no. That was a little different. (laughs) So I called her back and I -but my father carried that article and that picture in his wallet till the day he died. He was really proud and showed it to anybody that would look. JJ: Your father or father-in-law? CC: My father. JJ: Your mom couldn’t handle it. 27 �CC: Well, she kind of got it but I couldn’t -- [00:45:00] she says, “Do you think that’s funny?” I, “What are you talking about, ma? I don’t know what you’re talking about.” (laughs) But a friend of mine got some -- okay, they opened the Red Squad files or something and you could get it. A friend of mine got them -- JJ: Who is -- what is the Red Squad files? CC: The Red Squad was Mayor Daley’s police that he said didn’t exist that spied (laughs) on us and took pictures of us every time we came out of the clinic, all right? We would go like this (poses) and this (poses). JJ: So you knew they were watching? CC: Oh, yes, and we would pose and stuff. But they said that squad did not exist and only maybe in the last couple years, finally they admitted that there really was a thing called the Red Squad. JJ: And there were files. CC: And there were files but you would have to really know somebody to get them. I mean, they’re open, right? Like freedom of information? But everything is [00:46:00] blacked out just... However, when the person brought me these files, (laughs) the second page down, you know what was there? The picture of me in the paddy wagon. (laughs) And also, there was a thing about the Young Patriots that the alderman or something said, “You need to keep an eye on them,” and stuff. But there was other literature in there. But I couldn’t believe -- JJ: So the alderman (inaudible) -- CC: Yeah. They were -- yeah, that we were a danger to the community. JJ: Did you all get in the Red Squad car? 28 �CC: Yes. There is a cop, excuse me, a copy of that. The person that has them is supposed to get me copies of that. But I couldn’t believe second page down, there I am in the paddy wagon. (laughs) What used to get me is I -- JJ: You were -- CC: I didn’t understand why they -- I’m not a dummy. But why are they harassing us? All we’re trying to do is treat people like decent [00:47:00] human beings and see that they get the healthcare that they deserve. Or to -- with the food pantry, get some people who don’t have food food or clothing. Or trying... It seemed that if you were trying to make somebody’s life better whose life wasn’t that good, you were a communist or you were some kind of a terrorist. I never could understand that. It just amazing, simply amazing that -- JJ: You had said that you were raising [something?] around. Some supplies for the clinic? Is that (crosstalk) -- CC: Oh, we got those from Weiss Hospital. They gave us a -- [Dr. Sophol?], it was a Dr. Sophol who gave us a bunch of stuff and Bob Cross saw that we got some stuff. Some of the doctors also brought us stuff. But yeah, we were [00:48:00] run without anything from anybody. Really, like where they could tell us how we could run that clinic. Because if you allow them to tell you, then you’re no better than what you’re fighting against. So we were always self-sufficient. JJ: [Marta Chavita?] worked in the Young Lords -- CC: Marta Chavita. She worked -- okay. JJ: She worked in the Young Lords clinic. CC: Right, okay. 29 �JJ: How did you know her? CC: How did I know her? Because we would go on speaking engagements and talk to people and try to raise money for the clinics. JJ: Who’s we? CC: Okay. There was a -- the member from the Black Panthers was Doc Satchel, the Young Lords was Marta Chavita and myself from the Young Patriots. We got paid 300 dollars which we split between the three of us. We would go and talk to people. JJ: Who paid you? CC: Hmm? JJ: Who paid you? A school? CC: [00:49:00] No, it wasn’t a school. It was whatever group we went and talked to. Sometimes, we went and talked to college students. One time, I went and talked to 100 priests and nuns. (laughs) Scared me to death. Somebody told me, though, “Look out in the audience. Pretend they’re all naked.” (laughter) But that didn’t help; I was scared to death. But yeah, we would go try to raise money for the clinics. Then there was a trip to Canada where we -- I believe we thought we were going because it had something to do with medical care and stuff. Because they wanted one person from the Young Lords and one -- or a couple people from the Young Lords and some from the Patriots to go and some from the Black Panthers [00:50:00] also. So on the train were -- was Hilda Ignatin who was I believe at the time Latin American Defense Organization. Was she LADO then? I’m not sure. I think that’s what she was. 30 �JJ: I’m not sure. (phone rings) I’ll answer. (break in audio) CC: The Young Lords. Okay. We were invited and I don’t know who gave our names. There was -- women college students in Montreal wanted people from the clinics and stuff to come there to -- I thought it was about a health thing and I believed that Marta and everybody else believed that, too. We went on a train to Montreal and we stayed with some college students. They put us up in their apartments and stuff. Then we went to the college the next day [00:51:00] and while we were there, here came a procession of six little ladies. Three from North Vietnam and three from Laos. They marched and they went into the auditorium. When we got in there, we were seated in the auditorium. They had a screen, a movie screen, and what they showed us were pictures of our soldiers being shot down by the Vietnamese. I mean literally, they were shooting them and blowing up planes and everything. Afterwards, they said, “This is what’s happening to your soldiers over there. We don’t want to kill your brothers, your fathers, your -- and stuff; We want this war to end.” JJ: So these little Vietnamese. CC: They were Viet-- the tiniest little ladies you ever saw but they were [00:52:00] soldiers. JJ: Vietnamese women were there. CC: Yeah. They were soldiers, yeah. So then they said they were going to have a question and answer but all they wanted in there were third-world people. I’m not third-world; I’m Irish (laughs) -- an Irish Yankee (laughter) from Chicago. JJ: From Chicago. 31 �CC: Yeah, and so they didn’t want any white -- it was all women. It was all women. Okay. From the Young -- it was me from the Patriots. I don’t know the ladies from the Panthers but the Young Lords, it was Martha Chavita, a young lady named [Lupe?], [Guadalupe?], [Trinny?] and [Angie?]. JJ: [Angie Linn?]? (inaudible) CC: Okay. I didn’t know her last name. I know her face. I can -- yeah. JJ: Yeah, she was at the -- it was a women’s conference. CC: Yeah, it was a women’s conference. And so they wanted me to leave. Marta [00:53:00] and Lupe and them, they said, “No. She’s with us. If she’s not allowed in here, we’re leaving. We’re going. She’s --” They said, “She’s not third-world or what,” and Marta said, “What do you mean? Her name [Carmen?].” (laughter) My name tag said Carol. They got me a new name tag and for the -- I think we were there two days -- I had a name tag that said Carmen. (laughs) I loved those ladies. We got along so well and on the train -we were on the train a long time. They just were fantastic ladies and laughed and talked. We had a lot of things in common -- kids and the clinics. But while we were there, Angie got a phone call. When she came back, [00:54:00] it -- she said oh, her husband -- they told her her husband was in the hospital or been hurt or something and she had to go back to Chicago. JJ: Her husband named [Pancho?]. CC: Pancho, yeah. So she left. We got her on an airplane and got her out of there back to Chicago. What we came to find out was he was not in the hospital; he was not. He was, in fact, dead. That he had been walking down the street and 32 �two guys jumped out of a car and beat him to death with baseball bats and killed him. That’s something that when I think about -JJ: So Angie was a Young Lord and her husband was a Young Lord. CC: She was a Young Lord and her husband was a Young Lord, yes. To me, that’s something, Cha-Cha, that I never forgot ever since then. When I think about Canada, I think about what we [00:55:00] -- the movie and all that other stuff. But that’s what stands out in my mind that some moron would just because somebody was not white. I had been down South, we had been down South organizing -- JJ: Was he killed because he was Puerto Rican? CC: Because he was Puerto Rican. Yes, yes, yes. JJ: Mexican and Puerto Rican. CC: I had been down South and we had marched with King and stuff. I never saw anything like that. Ever. And it was terrible. We were threatened down there and everything. But for that to happen in Chicago to me was just unconscionable. I had a hard time dealing with that after I -- (laughs) JJ: You got to know Angie while you were there? What do you remember? What do you remember of Angie? CC: I got to know Angie and Marta. I remember her being a very sweet young lady. [00:56:00] Mostly, we talked. All of us when we were there -- like I said, our kids and the clinic. Just a bunch of ladies yap yap yapping. At night, we would -- we had sleeping bags and stuff. We slept on the floor in this apartment with these college students and stuff. We would be gigglin’ and stuff. We were supposed to 33 �be sleeping because we had to go (laughs) -- we would just be giggling like a pajama party or... (laughs) We were just so professional. We went to some French restaurants because we were in -- and that’s the first time I ever had crepes. We just walked around the city. But they were kind of leery of people coming in at that time because not too long before that, a prime minister or something had been [00:57:00] kidnapped by some left-wing people. I don’t remember who that was. So they were a little leery about anybody that was to the left a little bit. I’m trying to think. JJ: What about Marta? You got to know Marta. CC: I knew Marta pretty well, yeah. JJ: What do you remember about Marta? CC: Just that she was really nice and very sweet and intelligent. Very intelligent lady. JJ: Okay. She worked with you. She went and got stuff for the clinic, you said? CC: No, we went and we gave talks about the clinic. Yeah. It was always us. JJ: You said she’s -- CC: But sometimes, Doug and I would go over there and just visit with her and [Alberto?]. JJ: Okay, so the -- CC: Yeah, we kind of socialized with them. JJ: Because Alberto was also a Young Lord. CC: Yeah, her husband. Him and Doug got along real well. JJ: Because [00:58:00] at that time, was there a coalition or something or...? CC: Yeah, it was the Rainbow Coalition. Yeah. 34 �JJ: Who was that? (inaudible) CC: I believe that was the -- that was Chuck Geary, the Patriots, the Lords, the Panthers, some other people. JJ: You said that was the Rainbow Coalition. CC: That was the Rainbow Coalition. JJ: So that’s when you guys, you went to speak together -- the women. CC: Right. The three -- the Black, the Latin, and the white person was me. JJ: (inaudible) time together. CC: Yeah. The three of us. JJ: You guys were just talking about -- you were representing the -- CC: I was representing the Young Patriots, Marta the Young Lords, and Doc Satchel, the Black Panthers. Yeah. JJ: Do you remember what places you spoke at? CC: No. We went different places. Like sometimes, a school. Sometimes, it was just in a -- at a room where people came. JJ: Then the money was divided? CC: The money was divided between the three people. Yeah, so -- well, the three clinics, not the three people. I didn’t get the money personally. Yeah, right. JJ: (crosstalk) It went to the clinic. (inaudible) Okay. Tell me about Doug. (inaudible) CC: Okay. What can I tell you about Doug Youngblood? I met him when I was 16 years old. He was new to the neighborhood and he started hanging out with my brother. 35 �JJ: Who is your brother? CC: My brother Ross. JJ: You told me three times already. CC: Then he would -- that’s all right. He would come to my house with my brother supposedly to look at comic books because they -- I know they were 16 but they were still into the comic books [01:00:00] and stuff. He kind of liked me but I had another boyfriend who would get really upset because (laughs) when he would come to bring me home, there would be Doug sitting there with my brother. The young man I was going with got in some trouble and got sent to Minnesota. He had gone to the Audy Home and the way that his mother got him out was to send him to his brother’s in Minnesota. So he was gone and Doug was there. (laughs) And he pursued me. JJ: He persuaded you. CC: He pursued me. JJ: He pursued you. CC: We lived in an apartment building where there was a basement where you did your laundry. Everybody had their washing machine in there and stuff. One night, he went down there to help me carry the laundry back up. When we were going out, he stood in front of the basement door, told me I wasn’t getting out of there unless I gave him a kiss which I did. First I said, “Get out of my way,” but then he was [01:01:00] -- and we -- then we were together for a long time. Then he moved to Michigan -- Jackson, Michigan because his -- with his mom and stuff. So we were separated for a while but when he came back, we got together 36 �and eventually got married and had a son, Jason, and got involved. His mother was married to this guy [Gil Terry?] who -- I remember when I first met Doug, he said to me, “My stepfather is a communist.” I said (nods) but he was. Gil Terry was a communist. JJ: Is it Doug’s...? CC: Doug’s stepfather, yeah. They were involved in politics and stuff and you know, sure. JJ: [01:02:00] But why is he telling you that? CC: He told me that after we’d been together for -- because I think -- Doug at first told me that -- JJ: Did he look at that bad or good or...? CC: Bad. JJ: That he was a communist? CC: Yeah, because he was a communist and we (inaudible). But all Gil was was, Gil Terry, was a man. He cared about people and like us and he politicized Peggy, Doug’s mother Peggy, and (crosstalk) got her involved in stuff. Peggy Terry is -yeah, it’s Peggy Terry. Yeah. JJ: Peggy Terry, isn’t she the one that ran for...? CC: She ran for vice president of the United States on the Peace and Freedom Party ticket with Eldridge Cleaver. And I have a bumper sticker some place that says that. JJ: That’s your mother-in-law. 37 �CC: My mother-in-law, yes. Who was a great lady who really taught me most of what I know about anything. She politicized me. (laughs) I always cared about people. You know what I’m saying. [01:03:00] But I -- JJ: How did she get to the Peace and Freedom? What was she doing to get up there? CC: When JOIN came in, they got her involved in all that. It was them. JJ: It was them. So she was a member of JOIN? CC: Yeah. But she also -- they had this thing that was called WRDA, Welfare Recipients Demand Action. We had a block club and a tenants union. Also, we used to go to South Water Market and we had a food coop where we bought food for real cheap and stuff. We had one lady (laughs) that was in charge of the money and her and her husband [Dominic?], they decided to take off with the money (inaudible). So you had to be careful. But then I took charge of it so [01:04:00] and I did run away with the money. (laughs) But see, my background at that time was in bookkeeping and stuff. So I was real good about keeping books and keeping -- JJ: How did you get into that? CC: Bookkeeping? From high school. I learned in high school. Then I went to comptometer school. Comptometer, it was an adding machine. It was 10 keys across and 10 keys up and down. That’s what you added stuff. I could do that without looking like a typewriter could type stuff. I worked for ACNielsen as a comptometer operator. (break in audio) 38 �JJ: Testing one, two, three. Go ahead. Go ahead and say something. Go ahead and say something, Carol, please. CC: Hello. JJ: Okay. CC: Can you hear me? JJ: Testing one, two, three. This is interview number two. (break in audio) Okay, we [01:05:00] were talking about Doug, you said? CC: Yeah. I mean, here’s this young man who grew up in Ozark, Alabama, Paducah, Kentucky and stuff. Had never gone to high school, never graduated. I think he graduated from grammar school, never went to high school, not much of an education, who could write the most beautiful poetry, like political poetry, and just write up -- write on everything imaginable and who sounded like he had a college degree. (laughs) Honest to God. He was amazing -- an amazing man. But he -- JJ: How far did he go to school? CC: He only went to eighth grade. He never went to -- but he’s -- he got a GED in later years when we were in our 20s and then went to Northeastern also. [01:06:00] But he gave a poetry class at Stanford University (laughs) once. But he wrote political poetry and stuff and read. That man -- JJ: What kind of stuff did he write and [read?]? CC: It was against I don’t know, the police and the government. [Hythern?] has some of his poetry I gave him. Plus we put out a poetry book, the Young Patriots, called Time of the Phoenix and some of his poetry is in there. But he just -yeah. He was just amazing and he was reading all the time. I just cleared out 39 �the basement of books. He had books on everything imaginable. Nothing disinterested him. I mean, he’d read just everything. Not just political stuff; everything. And he was into -- he started painting. Oh, his paintings are upstairs. But [01:07:00] painting. Just beautiful. I didn’t know he could do that. He just was into everything. He was an amazing man and he passed away four years ago. JJ: You said cancer. CC: Cancer but we were together. We weren’t married that long, but we were together 50 years. JJ: Fifty years? CC: Fifty years. Yeah. Because we met in ’58 and he died in ’08. We were together 50 years so it was a long time. And I miss him; I really miss him. There were times I wonder (laughs) that I even miss that. That’s power for when you’re married to somebody. We just weren’t the -- what the -- [01:08:00] like on the TV families where everybody’s so happy. We weren’t like that. But we did pretty good. JJ: But you did pretty good, right? I mean you were happy sometimes. (inaudible) CC: Oh, we were happy most of the time. It’s just every once in a while. That was always all his fault, of course. (laughter) I would like to believe that but I know it’s not the truth. Yeah. JJ: But how were the Young Patriots? Did you know each other pretty well or did you visit each other or...? CC: What, with the Young Patriots? 40 �JJ: Yeah. CC: Oh, we were married when we got into the Young Patriots because we’d been together since we were 16. Like I said, he moved away because Peggy moved to Paducah -- not Paducah -- Jackson, Michigan. He was gone a couple years and then he came back and we were together after that. JJ: Okay, you want to talk about Peggy, too. What about...? CC: Peggy. When I met Peggy, I was 16 and she was like 36 [01:09:00] years old. The most amazing woman you ever want to meet in your entire life. She just -you’re talking about a woman I don’t think even finished public school, grammar school or anything. Had no real education at all who became -- it’s because of her. She was like a historian, too. She kept all this stuff from all those years ago and just got into and started becoming very vocal. Talking about welfare, the police. She worked with doc-- very closely with Dr. King and she marched in Mississippi. She wound up with 12 broken vertebrae in her back because when the police beat them with fire hoses. That’s not fair. She was an [01:10:00] amazing woman. Just an amazing lady. For coming from -- she’s just a little -she’s a little hillbilly girl. Dumb hillbilly girl, didn’t know nothing and then she just (snapped). She was the first person, the first white person, that was on Jet magazine. I -- yeah. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Jet magazine. JJ: Yeah, I have. CC: Yeah. She was the first white person that was on there. They have an article on her. JJ: I’ll look at it. 41 �CC: Yeah, yeah. She worked -- mainly, she started out with the civil rights stuff. But that was because of Gil. Like I say, he was a -- into politics and he got her involved. I don’t think he realized what he created when he started politicizing her (laughs) because she just went -- she was just amazing. JJ: [01:11:00] So she did a lot of stuff in Uptown? CC: Oh, a whole lot. A lot of stuff in Uptown. JJ: (crosstalk) Were you living in Uptown then or...? CC: Yeah, we lived in Uptown. And she -- yeah. JJ: How long did you live there? CC: We lived there up until the ‘70s. JJ: From what year? CC: Okay. We lived there from about 1965 to 1973. JJ: Oh was it? CC: Yeah. JJ: What was it like then? CC: Uptown. Uptown? It was like the ghetto. It was a lot of slum buildings and stuff. A lot of crime. (laughs) JJ: How did it feel like? CC: I was used to that. (laughter) JJ: You [01:12:00] called it the ghetto but you were living there. (laughs) CC: I didn’t know the word ghetto till I -- they politicized it with ghetto. What are you talking about ghetto? (inaudible) JJ: (laughs) This is my hangout. 42 �CC: Yeah, right, this is my neighborhood. (laughs) JJ: So how was it? Was it a neighborhood or did people know each other or...? CC: Well, not really. People, I think, were suspicious of each other. It was a very diverse community. There were Blacks, whites, Hispanics, some Orientals, and stuff. They -- until JOIN came and they got to -- I don’t think the people were that close together. You know what I’m saying? And then JOIN kind of organized them and people got -- you got to know your neighbors were... Like I said, the neighborhood I grew up in, you knew everybody in the building and all the kids in your neighboring buildings and stuff. But that was the [01:13:00] ‘40s, ‘50s. Now, this is a little different and nobody, I don’t think, knew each other or trusted each other (laughs) all that much. Then they came together with the block club and that we had a tenants union and a (coughs) -- and a food coop. Plus, we -we had our hands in a little bit of everything. There was a lady, [Kit Komatsu?], who came. Peggy brought her back from -- when they were marching in Mississippi, she brought her to town, Kit Komatsu. Had a group that was called CAMP, Chicago Area Military Project. What they did was they printed up a newspaper and took it to military camps and soldiers because it was against the war but not against the soldiers. Do you know what I’m saying? Because there were some soldiers that were involved in that. One I remember particularly, his name was [Jeff Sharlet?]. He had been a [01:14:00] special forces. He would sit there and tell us about how they used to go in these towns in Vietnam and literally kill the mayor and stuff. What he wound up and a lot of soldiers was that Agent Orange. He wound up -- see, that’s the thing. They were spraying all this 43 �stuff but they weren’t getting the Vietnamese; They were getting our soldiers, too. A lot of our soldiers came back with that Agent Orange and cancer and all this. Then she -- Peggy brought her in and we started this newspaper called Firing Line where she would keep me up, Kit, till three o’clock in the morning (laughs) cutting with an X-Acto knife to make these little cows and all this. (laughter) I hated that newspaper. I didn’t hate it but I hated to have to [01:15:00] because she would not let me out. The Young Patriots Bobby Joe -- okay, Peggy was very political and Bobby Joe McGinnis, Junebug and I’m trying to -- and somebody else and I. There was a program on TV called The Fugitive and it was the last night when they were going to catch the one-arm man. We got up out of a meeting, a tenants’ meeting. Me, Bobby, and Junebug (laughs) went to my house to watch the last episode of The Fugitive. Peggy was so mad at us. We said, “We don’t care about the tenants’ union. We got to see -- catch the onearm man.” (laughs) Well, what can I say? (laughs) And over the years, she used to bring that up (laughs) about how we were more interested in The Fugitive than the -- well, anyway. They survived without [01:16:00] us. JJ: What about -- you mentioned Chuck Geary before. CC: Chuck Geary. JJ: Did you know him pretty good or...? CC: Yeah, I knew him and I -- well -- JJ: Because he was an activist there, right? CC: Yeah, he was -- Hythern would be more because he was involved with him. I knew Chuck Geary and I -- his daughter [Marcella?] ran around with us. I was 44 �close to Marcella. In fact, I can’t find her. We talked to her in 2007. She used to call here and I know she’s in Texas someplace. But we can’t... I tried calling the phone number I had and it’s disconnected. So but that -- Marcella. Yeah, Chuck Geary, he was a good guy and stuff. But he was more for working within the system rather than trying to change -- to work along with people. His idea of helping people and somebody said it was a good id-- [01:17:00] he bought a bunch of (laughs) chicken farms and threw these people out there and they were raising chickens. (laughter) I’m sorry. (snorts) JJ: They were raising chickens? CC: Yes. They were -- JJ: So you didn’t think that was a good thing? CC: No. (laughter) I guess the -- JJ: What should they have been doing instead of raising chickens? CC: They had nothing so he’s -- he set them up and whatever. They had all these chicken farms and I think that was in Kentucky. (laughs) I’m not sure. I -Hythern could probably tell you more (laughs) about the chicken farms. JJ: So chicken were going back and forth to Kentucky? Is that what you’re saying? CC: I think they all moved down there is what -- but he had all these chickens. (laughs) JJ: Oh, he moved them there -- CC: He moved them there. (laughs) JJ: -- to a chicken farm. (laughter) 45 �CC: [01:18:00] He always reminded me of one of those southern preachers, Chuck Gea-- because he was always preaching. He was the Reverend Chuck Geary. I don’t know which church (laughs) he was at, but he was a Reverend Chuck Geary. JJ: He had some (inaudible) CC: (laughter) Yeah, right. But -- JJ: But he preached pretty good or...? CC: Oh yeah, oh yeah. And he had a lot of people that believed in him. And he was not a bad person, Chuck. I like Chuck Geary. JJ: You didn’t like chickens. CC: I -- no. (laughter) I was not about to go to the chicken farm. (laughs) My chicken, it’s got to be plucked and on my plate. That’s the only thing I want with chicken, but -- JJ: I did hear he was a good leader. CC: He was a good leader. I mean, he could -- he had a -- he could talk. You know what I’m saying? And make you believe everything he was saying. [01:19:00] Not that he wasn’t honest. You know what I’m saying. But oh yeah, he was very -- JJ: He worked kind of within the system and you wanted to -- CC: Right, and we were revolutionaries. That’s what we considered ourself revolutionary. JJ: What does that mean? 46 �CC: We would fight for what we believe rather than try to work or take concessions or make concessions. That’s my understanding of revolutionary. We were rabblerousers. JJ: How did -- there’s another -- a better word. Rabble-rousers. CC: Yeah, rabble-rousers, yeah. JJ: But you would fight for what you believe instead of compromising. CC: Right, what we believe in. Yeah, or compro-- or taking -- that’s why we never took federal funding or anything for the clinic. Because I said once you let those people in, they’ll tell you how to run it. Before you know it, you’re not running it at all, they’re running [01:20:00] it. The reason we started the clinic to begin with was so we could do better than what they had. JJ: Okay. So in Uptown, you had -- so okay. So they can do better than what they had? CC: We could do better. The community and the community was well able to tell us what they wanted or to do for themselves. See, that was the problem with -when JOIN came, when the students came. In the beginning, it was really good because they brought all these ideas and everything. However, they didn’t want to let go and they sometimes treated the people like they were little children or something and that they had to be told what to do. These women that they were organizing and stuff were becoming more powerful and more -- and thinking more and wanting more. And able to vocalize that and go and do some. But the students didn’t want to let go. [01:21:00] It’s like little children -- you cannot... 47 �They told them, “We don’t need you. We’re not little children, we’re not idiots and we know what we want. We’re not your little project.” (laughs) JJ: Like they’re parenting -- they were parenting. CC: Yeah, right. JJ: Patronizing probably. Something like that. CC: Oh yeah, patronizing. Yeah. So a lot of the students were good people -- JJ: So the majority of the students -- they just later on, they got into -- they got into patronizing. CC: Yeah. In the beginning, too. “Oh, we’re going to save the community,” and all this and that’s okay. But if you’re going to teach people, you got to let go. It’s like with children. You got to let your kid walk on his own. You kind of watch maybe to make sure they’re not going to fall down a hole or something. But you got to let go. See? They didn’t [01:22:00] want to let go. JJ: So the Patriots believe in letting go so that then people could go by themselves -- CC: Right. (crosstalk) and various people became more knowledgeable about what they were entitled to and what they could do. JJ: So they were not just giving handouts. (crosstalk) CC: That’s right, that’s right. People were doing things and people were starting to feel good about themselves. Yeah, I can make a difference, you know? But the students were like, “You can’t do this without us.” So that’s that. Like they moved into the neighborhood -- okay. (laughs) I shouldn’t tell this story. There was a young lady and she moved into one of the apartments, one of the [Claremont?] building apartments. Once a week, her parents, chauffer and the 48 �maid would come and clean her apartment and take her laundry and do her laundry. However, she was living in poverty. She saw that as living in poverty and I’m not going to mention her name because she is pretty well-known. [01:23:00] I said to her, “What’s the matter with you? Do you really think these women can relate to you?” Here you are, your chauffer and your -- and they would pull up in a limo or whatever and (laughs) they’d come clean her apartment. They never worked. All right? That’s another thing is they -- a lot of these people, if you [wanted?] them over, a lot of women were out working trying to support their families. These students were not working. I don’t know where their money was coming from. It had to have been from their mothers and fathers or whatever. You can’t say, “We’re just like you.” You’re not. But they were well-meaning. I don’t mean to cut them that because there were a lot of -they meant well. They just didn’t know when to let go. And there -- [01:24:00] what can I say? (laughs) JJ: I understand that they -- that it was important to let go to create sort of -- CC: Right. They created something. They gave people tools to work with and I think they didn’t expect that they were going to get the -- that they were going to succeed. JJ: (laughs) CC: You know what I’m saying? (laughs) What’s the thing? (inaudible) “I’m going to do this,” and all of a sudden just... These people really have voices and they can really express themselves and they can do things and make decisions for 49 �themselves. It was like, “Hmm, be careful what you wish for,” (laughs) kind of thing. JJ: So what was the -- what kind of issues did you program with JOIN and all that? CC: I wasn’t involved that much in JOIN -- not myself. I just know this from my mother-in-law who was Peggy Terry. JJ: [01:25:00] For example, what was the housing like in Uptown? CC: The housing was terrible. JJ: It wasn’t -- CC: You had buildings where the back porches were literally falling. The kids were falling through the porches and some getting killed or maimed or there was painting peeling off the ceilings and stuff. The lead paint. They didn’t -- the halls were filled with trash and stuff. I mean, it’s just terrible. The buildings were -- JJ: Were these two- or three-storey buildings or...? CC: Yeah, yeah. These had been nice buildings at one point. But the landlords, all they did was take the rent and they never fix up the property. And if you didn’t like it, you could move. That’s the way it was. A lot of it was like there weren’t leases, see? It was like monthly. [01:26:00] Or some places, there were some furnished places that were weekly and stuff like that. And then urban renewal decided they were going to come in and -- JJ: So what happened there? CC: Urban renewal? They wanted to build that Truman College over there on Wilson Avenue and they were going to tear down a bunch of the buildings. We fought them about that because what are you going to do about the people that are 50 �living here? Are you going to move them into...? They did give people like a first month’s rent. They had to find an apartment and then they would pay the first month’s rent to move there or wherever. But they had to find their own. They were going to just tear down these buildings and where are these people going to go? And they didn’t care. JJ: This was the city. CC: The city, yeah. Urban renewal because they wanted to build the -- which they did, the Truman College. (laughs) Terrible. JJ: Now, this was [01:27:00] you. This was the -- CC: The JOIN. That was JOIN. JJ: (crosstalk) CC: Yeah, and all Young Patriots, we went there to the meetings with urban renewal and we fought with the Uptown National Bank (laughs) is who was -- JJ: The Uptown National Bank was part of it? It was -- CC: Yeah. It was part of the urban renewal and this [Yurania Dumofley?] was her name. They didn’t care about the people. I can get rid of the -- see, you get rid of the neighborhood, you get rid of the people. It was in Uptown there, there was one street, I can’t think of the name where [Ed Farr?] lived, it’s all mansions. In the middle of the ghetto, there’s this street where there’s all mansions and all these rich people live. We said to them, “Would you like some of our tenants to come move in your neighborhood? [01:28:00] (laughs) Maybe you can put us up in some of the buildings you have there.” No, no, they didn’t want any part of that. So where are you gonna move these people? But -- 51 �JJ: When did you move from Uptown? CC: I moved from Uptown in 1973. I moved actually into Edgewater and then into Rogers Park. I lived in Rogers Park, yeah. JJ: (crosstalk) You skipped one there. Now, were you being pushed out or you just went on your own? CC: No, I just went on my own. And I worked for ATA which was Aid to Alcoholics and that came out of the mental health center. We opened up the men medical detox center and I worked there. Okay. And that, I moved to Rogers Park and -- JJ: How did you get into that over there? CC: Because [01:29:00] of the mental health center, I worked with United Charities with geriatrics. But I was more interested in working with drug addicts and alcoholics and stuff. So -- JJ: Why were you into that? CC: Because most of the people (laughs) I ran around with were like that. Also at the time, I had kind of an alcohol problem myself. We had a storefront and then we opened up -- JJ: I mean, you became like a counselor. CC: A counselor, yeah. A counselor. But the terrible thing was I was also at that time drinking. (laughs) JJ: Drinking and counseling at the same time. CC: But most of the counselors and stuff were recovering alcoholics that worked in there. I was still a practicing alcoholic. (laughter) I didn’t know I was practicing but I was practicing. But then we -- 52 �JJ: Don’t they call it denial or something? CC: Yeah, denial. Absolutely. [01:30:00] And then the man who ran it was Reverend Jack Norgaard. That was [Lutheran Welfare Services?] ran that. He knew that I had a problem because people would see me out on the street and stuff. He came to my house and said to me -- never threatened my job, nothing. “You’ve got one week to get Jason,” my son, because Doug and I were split up at that time. Have Peggy, my mother-in-law, take care of Jason. He was taking me out to Mercy center in Aurora here for the alcohol treatment program. Because he said, “There’s people that are really concerned about you and they don’t want to see -- they want to see you live a little longer.” I’m thinking, “Oh, Jack. I’m not an alcoholic.” Anyway. So I let him take me out there to Mercy center and I haven’t had a drink since 1975 -- October of 1975. JJ: [01:31:00] That’s -- CC: Thirty-three years. Well, no, it wasn’t. Thirty-seven years. JJ: Congratulations. That’s pretty good. CC: But I -- JJ: Did you go to any program or did you just...? CC: Yeah, I went to -- it was an alcohol treatment program they have at Mercy center and -- JJ: And how long were you there? CC: I was there for 30 days. Okay? When I came back out, I went back to work at the drop-in center, the storefront we had. Then in a couple months, I helped open the non-medical detox center. We had a building that used to be a nursing 53 �home. There were like three floors and I worked in triage where the police would bring us people off the street and stuff. JJ: You detoxed. CC: Yeah, we detoxed. JJ: I worked in a detox. CC: Did you? JJ: Yeah. CC: But it was non-medical so they -- we had a lot of people shaking and -- JJ: Shakes and all that. CC: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Mine was medical. They had a (inaudible). CC: [01:32:00] Was it medical? Where did you work, Cha-Cha? JJ: I was in Michigan. CC: Oh, in Michigan? JJ: (inaudible). I started in Chicago -- I was a counselor in Chicago, too. CC: Oh. JJ: (inaudible) CC: Yeah, and I got an ENT card -- JJ: Before the counseling, I started on my own. (laughs) CC: Oh, you were like me. Yeah. JJ: (laughs) (crosstalk) CC: That’s it. I never looked back and I’ve never regretted. Never regretted giving that up. I used to tell Jack, Reverend Norgaard, I’d say, “You saved my life.” 54 �“No, I didn’t.” I’d say, “Yes, you did. You saved my life. You really saved my life.” And the thing about it was a lot of the people that they brought into the detox (laughs) that were people I drank with. They listened to me because they knew I had been there and done that. The only problem is -JJ: It really helps you if you’re helping somebody else. CC: Oh, yeah. And I had to go to AA and one of the counselors at the storefront we had, him and his wife, every night, they took me to AA and I’d (inaudible)... [01:33:00] They took me to this one place that used to be a funeral home. I would be sitting in a chair and right across the street, there was a tavern and this Budweiser sign would flash on and I would think this is hell. (laughs) This is hell. I’m being punished. (laughter) JJ: (inaudible) CC: But I ran AA meetings. We had a -- like a dining room type thing. I got paid to play Pinochle with these... (laughs) When I worked triage, then I worked with the people that were really when they first came in and stuff. But then when I worked on the second floor, I used to get to go in the day room and play Pinochle. Now, they used to call me the warden. I worked on third shift and I would come in and people would be running to their rooms. “Here comes the warden,” right? I knew they were bringing [01:34:00] booze in somehow -- somehow. I sat one night and I waited and I heard noise and I went down by the day room. Here, they had a rope outside the window and somebody was standing in the gangway and they were pulling booze through the window and I busted them. Then I went from room to room and the ceiling tiles. Went up in there and I got every bottle I could 55 �find -- I mean stuff. I had a setup at the nurses’ station. Just say goodbye -wave bye-bye. (laughs) That’s how they started to call me the warden because I made a raid and (crosstalk) I said, “This is a -- you’re busted. It’s not going to happen anymore.” (crosstalk) But it -- I loved those guys. I would be standing on the corner in Chicago waiting for the bus and here would come one of the drunk, “Carol.” They’d be hugging me and people would be looking at me. (laughs) I was like, “Oh my God.” [01:35:00] I knew every drunk in Uptown. (laughter) Yeah. That was exciting. That’s what I did. JJ: So you get clean you said 37 years or...? CC: I’ve been sober 37 years. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Thirty-seven years. CC: Yeah, thirty-seven years this month. JJ: (inaudible) CC: I never regretted it; Never ever. (laughs) I don’t know why I drank, in fact. You know what I’m saying? I don’t... But that’s something that was started when I was a teenager. I mean, that was the thing you did. You drank and -- JJ: You were a teenager when everybody was out on the same corner and that’s all they did. CC: Yeah, right. That’s all we did was drink. Some people did drugs. Like I said, I was terrified of drugs and I never... Now, when I got a little older, I did try. [01:36:00] I smoked pot. I didn’t inhale; Yes, I did. (laughs) But I never got into anything like needles. I hate needles and stuff like that. But you have your peers 56 �are there and they’re doing this and you -- so you decide you’re going to try it, but -JJ: In terms of the Young Patriots, what do you think was their contribution in the (inaudible)? CC: What was their contribution? JJ: Yeah. I mean their -- CC: Mostly, the clinic. They taught people that they didn’t have to treated like garbage, that they were worthwhile human beings. They had a right to have good healthcare, they a right to eat, (laughs) they had a right to live in conditions that weren’t falling [01:37:00] apart. They organized a lot of people -- a lot of community people. It was surprising that people got really involved. You start to feel like you’re worth something. Here, you got people telling you you’re a worthless hillbilly or something and you start to believe that. Then they saw that they weren’t. That they could do something. They could fight City Hall. Maybe we didn’t win all the time but you could do that. You were allowed to do that. You were allowed to stand up for yourself and say, “I am somebody and I deserve to be treated like somebody.” I believe that’s what the Patriots taught and I think the Patriots themselves. Here you got young guys that were just street hustlers who became different -- their lives are changed. They’re not in prison [01:38:00] which is probably where they would’ve wound up had they not gotten (inaudible) with stuff. They would probably be in prison or dead. I believe that. I really believe that. JJ: What are some final thoughts on that? 57 �CC: Hmm? JJ: Some final thoughts. CC: Final thoughts? I’m glad I was there, I’m glad I was involved. I’ve never been ashamed of what I was involved with. I would do it again. I don’t know about at this age because I can’t run as fast, for one thing. (laughter) Yeah. I’m glad I was there. I’m glad that maybe I made a difference; That I did change people’s lives or maybe educate people how they could change their lives. I’m glad I was here and I’ve never been ashamed. I’m not ashamed today. JJ: [01:39:00] Any other thoughts? Anything we forget to talk about? CC: No. I told you -- JJ: What about the relationship with the -- how did people feel between the Panthers and the Patriots or the Young Lords? CC: The Panthers. We didn’t have so much contact with the Panthers. The Panthers were -- let’s see -- on their own page. (laughs) How can I say? We were closer, I believe, to the Young Lords than the -- because the Young Lords, they ran their clinic and they were interested in the people. The Panthers? I don’t know. Sometimes I had some problems with them. JJ: What kind of problems? CC: They would call me on a -- when I was running the clinic one time and they said there’s a meeting. They were having a meeting and I had to come to this meeting. Because like I said, I was a certain -- that was my thing. [01:40:00] I said, “We’re running the clinic.” “Well, we’re the Black Panthers.” I said, “Look, I don’t care. When the clinic is over, then I will be there.” All right? All right. They 58 �had this -- these new cars and stuff and vehicles they were transporting. We had this little stinking station wagon (laughs) that was always breaking down. But -JJ: So you just didn’t have a lot of contact with them. That’s (inaudible). CC: Right. I had no animosity towards them but I really questioned their politics. The Chicago Panthers, anyway. JJ: What do you mean their politics? (crosstalk) CC: They were more -- I don’t know how to say this. (laughs) JJ: No, no, I think it’s fine. CC: It’s like -- JJ: You’re talking personally because (inaudible) -- of course there were, some of the other people were more [01:41:00] in communication with them -- with the Panthers. But you were in the clinic so you didn’t -- CC: Yeah, right. I was in the clinic and stuff and I just -- JJ: All you wanted to do was just do the clinic. CC: I just wanted to do what I was -- JJ: The clinic, right? CC: -- the clinic -- JJ: That’s what the Panthers -- CC: -- and to be helping people and -- JJ: And that’s what the Panthers wanted you to do anyway, right? CC: -- they just wanted to do, “Okay, it’s fine to beat your chest and all this other sun talk,” and sit here in a meeting and BS and talk about nothing as far as I’m concerned. I was about doing stuff. Like I said, I used to get in trouble 59 �sometimes because my mouth would go. But I’ve always been an upfront person, Cha-Cha. I’m not going to stand there and say, “Oh, okay. Yeah, well...” That’s not the way I am. (laughs) JJ: So you were a doer and you had to do -- you didn’t want to go to meetings. CC: Yeah, that’s -- I want to do and I don’t want to sit in meetings and just BS and not get anything accomplished. Just sit there and listen to yourself [01:42:00] talk is not my way of doing things. It doesn’t get anything done. That’s the problem I had with the JOIN students, too, is they were, “Me, me, me,” sitting there talking about nothing. What they wanted to do, what they were -- I don’t want to hear that. Get out there and do it. Who cares what you want to do? Get out there and do it. Or talk about philosophies or there’s a word I can’t. (gestures vomiting) Boring. So (inaudible). (laughter) I’m sorry, I have -- JJ: No, but you did get to speak with Doc Satchel and -- CC: Yeah, I liked Doc Satchel because -- oh, and that was another thing. If Doc Satchel couldn’t make it, somebody wouldn’t come from the Black Panthers. Then they expected us to share but we had to give them their 100 dollars. No, I’m sorry. That’s [01:43:00] not right because it was only me and somebody from the Young Lords that was there speaking. The Panthers were suppose-- but they didn’t because Doc was busy or something. To me, that’s not -- JJ: (laughs) It ain’t right. CC: “Give us our speaking fee.” No, you didn’t speak. JJ: So you didn’t want to give them that. CC: No, we didn’t. We didn’t. 60 �JJ: Now, what did you think about Fred Hampton? CC: I only met him one time and I didn’t know him. Mark Clark, I met many times. JJ: Was there -- they killed them. Was there something like that happening with the Patriots, too? Were the police after the Patriots? CC: Oh, the police were after the Patriots. But they just killed people on the street. They didn’t go into their apartments and roll them away which is what that jerk did. JJ: But they did (inaudible) him. CC: Oh yeah. JJ: So they didn’t plant it or anything, they just killed him on the street. CC: No. they went -- they planted it. They went in -- those people were sleeping, Cha-Cha. [01:44:00] They went in there and they killed them in their beds. I didn’t know for a long time that Doc Satchel was one of the people that got shot. Somehow, he got away but he was there the night that they killed Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. They went into there. I want to say was it Burke or Ed -- what was his name? JJ: [Hanrahan?], Hanrahan. CC: Hanrahan, him. Oh, that guy, I got to tell you a funny story. Hanrahan. They planted it. They just went in there and went into that apartment and blew people away in their sleep! I was at a bingo -- okay, 25 years ago or so at this church. In the hall comes Hanrahan running around shaking people’s hand. [01:45:00] He got to me and I just sat there. I said, “I don’t want to shake your hand, jerk.” (laughs) 61 �JJ: How come you didn’t want to shake his hand? CC: Because he had killed Fred Hampton. (laughs) I mean, he was responsible and I knew about it and he was a jerk. He was a real jerk. Oh, Hanrahan, going around, shaking all the bingo ladies’ hands. I don’t know what he was running for -- from them. He should’ve been running for his life is what he should’ve been doing. JJ: (laughter) Yeah. He was running (crosstalk). CC: Hiding in a hole. Yeah. I forget what it was. JJ: (inaudible) So (inaudible) [Youngblood?]? So I know you said that they killed some people on the street. But was the police, did they do any questioning afterwards? Why did the Young Patriots break up? CC: Oh, why did they break up? They [01:46:00] didn’t break up. People just went their own ways -- kind of moved, kind of moved. Junebug went to California and Bobby moved to Kentucky. People, the original Young Patriots. Doug and I, we moved. JJ: Mm-hmm. So you moved this way or...? CC: No. I moved to Rogers Park and I got into working with drug addicts and alcoholics. Kit Komatsu and David Komatsu, they kept up the clinic. They moved it over on [Gray Street?] and they kept it up. But people just drifted away. Nothing, nothing -- JJ: What about a preacher man or (inaudible)? CC: Now, preacher man. That’s a totally different thing. I never cared for him, (inaudible) -- never cared for him. 62 �JJ: But wasn’t he -- I thought he was from the neighborhood. CC: No, he was from -- he was a seminary student or [01:47:00] something -- JJ: (inaudible) CC: -- that my mother-in-law, Peggy Terry, when we were in Resurrection City after they killed King when we set up that city in Washington, D.C., he was there and they talked to him. Then he came to Chicago and worked with the Patriots. However, he had his own agenda and he was kind of a megalomaniac, I guess. (laughs) Megalomaniac? Is that what that -- megalomaniac? Like ego maniac? JJ: (crosstalk) CC: Yeah. A megalomaniac, because I do crossword puzzles. It has something -- no, well, that’s where I learned that word is self-important. Very self-important. (inaudible) Like I said, I never cared for him and I -- JJ: He wasn’t from Uptown. I thought he was from -- CC: No, he was from [01:48:00] North Carolina or South Carolina and he came here. JJ: So was he like a hillbilly, too, or...? (crosstalk) CC: Yeah, he was a hillbilly. JJ: Okay. Is that a good term? I don’t know. I -- CC: Oh, there’s nothing wrong with that. It used to be -- now, when I was young and stuff, if you called somebody a hillbilly, that was like using the n-word to a southerner. But then in the ‘60s and stuff, it became -- people were proud to be hillbillies. We used to say, “There’s only two kinds of people in this world: hillbillies and the people who wish they were hillbillies.” (laughs) But no, Peggy 63 �and them, they never had a problem being called hillbillies. And they used to tell me they loved me anyway even if I was a Yankee. JJ: Oh, okay. CC: Yeah, because I wasn’t a hillbilly. They told -- JJ: [01:49:00] Did they call you Yankee or no? CC: No. JJ: You called yourself Yankee. CC: Everybody did. JJ: Why is there a difference? Yeah, what is that? CC: Why do you think? Because -- okay, Yankee, because of the Civil War, the North and the South. See, I’m a Yankee. I’m a Chicago girl. JJ: Oh, that’s right. That’s right. That’s right, you’re a Chicago girl. CC: They used to kid me and say I was hillbilly by injection but that’s not... (laughter) That’s dumb. Don’t put that. (laughter) No, that’s what Dougie used to tell me. (laughter) (inaudible) “You’re a hillbilly by injection.” JJ: What does that mean? Something (inaudible). CC: Yeah, right. But it -- my mother-in-law, Peggy, she would say, “We love you even if you are a damn Yankee.” (laughs) JJ: Okay. So there was a lot of pride in (crosstalk) CC: (inaudible) it’ll go -- yeah. It came -- it became -- JJ: It’s a culture. (crosstalk) CC: -- for me derogatory to a -- yeah. JJ: So it’s [01:50:00] like a different culture, right? 64 �CC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Something like Puerto Rican, Mexican. CC: Right. Yeah. Hillbilly. Southern white. It’s usually meant southern white, not southern Blacks but southern white. Hillbilly. But actually I think in the dictionary, it says that a hillbilly is a Michigan farmer. JJ: Really? CC: It seems to me. Maybe not but it’s probably updated. I don’t care what you call me as long as you don’t call me late for dinner. That’s what I... (laughter) But what would be funny -- okay. Because I was married to Doug and Peggy was my mother-in-law, when we would go someplace, I forget where it was. I was applying for something and they put down, “You’re a southern white, right?” I said, “No, why?” Doug is, yeah, he’s my husband but I’m not a southern white. (laughs) [01:51:00] Or when they would categorize me and put me in a southern white and I’d say, “No, I’m not a southern white.” (laughs) I’m a damn Yankee. JJ: So right now, you’re not active? You’re kind of retired? CC: Oh yeah, I’m retired. (laughs) JJ: From that, yes. CC: Yeah, from that. I still put my two cents in and if I can help, you know what I’m saying? Like at work, I’ve had guards that would -- racist and stuff and I got them removed. (laughs) I’m not ashamed to say that and I really don’t mess with people’s jobs. But if you’re going to treat people like they’re garbage just because they’re not white or whatever, you’re gone. (laughs) I’m not putting up 65 �with that. I’ve [01:52:00] had people who needed help with alcohol or something and I would put them in contact with people so... JJ: You still (inaudible) CC: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) Okay. One more time. Any other final thoughts? CC: No. That’s it; that’s it. JJ: Okay. You said you have your son or...? CC: Yeah, I have a son, Jason. He’s 45. Yeah. JJ: He doesn’t come around or...? CC: He lives here. JJ: Oh, he lives here. CC: He lives here with his girlfriend and her two-year-old son so that just happened recently that they moved in. Actually, it was the little boy that got to me. (crosstalk) I wasn’t so keen on having her because you can’t have two women in the house or even in the kitchen and all that. But that little boy just kind of got me so -- JJ: [01:53:00] (inaudible) CC: Yeah. I guess he -- he’s my grandson. He’s not my blood but he’s my -- I love him to death. I’m a pushover when it comes to babies and animals. JJ: What’s his name? CC: His name is [Nicholas?]. JJ: Nicholas. What’s her name? CC: Her name is [Nicole?]. 66 �JJ: Nicole. (inaudible) CC: Yeah. She’s a sweetheart. She really is a sweetheart. But puppies and babies or little kids. (laughs) I know I’m a pushover. (laughs) END OF VIDEO FILE 67 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ad57d098cadaabde488ffbc9dc2a4c19.mp4 bfbcdc7df1177b1eb05c79b83b40adae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Título Spanish language Title entry Carol Blakely vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Carol Blakely, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 10/19/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Blakely_Carol Title A name given to the resource Carol (Coronado) Blakely video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blakely, Carol (Coronado) Description An account of the resource Oral history of Carol (Coronado) Blakely, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 10/19/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. In the video, an older white woman in a blue top speaks while looking towards the interviewer who is off camera. In the interview, Carol discusses growing up on the north side of Chicago, and her involvement as a young adult in the Young Patriots Organization, which organized a health clinic for underserved Chicago residents. She also discusses collaborating with members of the Young Lords and Black Panthers on community organizing. The transcript file includes a detailed biographical note about the subject. Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-10-19 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José "Cha-Cha" (interviewer) Audio Transcription Center (transcriber) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Civil Rights Movement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5f80a5c9e27a565f71eadced2c4e2526.pdf 1d456f6a7a8994d8c704e50c0b22835a PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: John Boelter Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/20/2012 Biography and Description John Boelter was one of the Chicago Teachers Union members on strike in September 1968 at Waller High School, known today by its new name, Lincoln Park High. Today he is a Professor of Biology at Chicago State University. In 1968, a prominent Young Lord, Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera returned from Puerto Rico and subleased a room from Dr. Boelter. Mr. Rivera, who grew up in Lakeview, wanted to be closer to the Young Lords who were then hanging out in front of the Armitage Avenue United Methodist Church which later to become the People’s Church, on the corner of Dayton Street and Armitage Avenue. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Rivera had been hanging out with M.P.I. (Movimiento Pro Independencia) and F.U.P.I. (Federacion Universitaria Pro Independencia) their student auxiliary, at University of Puerto Rico campus in Rio Piedras. He was going through a political transformation. Upon arriving in Chicago, Mr. Rivera soon discovered that his Young Lords colleagues were also going through a transformation. They had been reorganized once again by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the members were struggling with each other on whether to remain apolitical as just a gang or to become a human rights movement. Mr. Rivera joined in fully to help Mr. Jiménez, and they together designed the original Young Lords button that read, “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón ( I have Puerto Rico in my heart) with a green map of Puerto Rico in the center, and a brown arm and fist holding a rifle. The initials YLO, which stood for “Young Lords Organization,” was at the bottom. They had added organization to their name, to make it �clear that they were now involved in a class struggle, fighting for Latinos, the poor, and for Puerto Rican self-determination. Mr. Rivera became one of the Young Lords’ first P.E. (political education) class teachers, as these sessions were being held in the different homes of members including. LP Records of speeches by Malcom X, Fidel Castro, Don Pedro Albizu Campos, Mao Tse Tung’s Little Red Book, the National Question, Panther films, and Saul Alinsky strategies were being used as tools for study. It was in Mr. Boelter’s and Mr. Rivera’s house where Chicago Black Panther Party Chairman Fred Hampton and the Panthers first arrived on Dayton and Armitage. They were led from the corner to the house to meet Dr. Boelter, Mr. Rivera, Mr. Jiménez, and the Young Lords. The Black Panthers broke bread and drank Wild Irish Rose (Fred Hampton did not drink or use drugs) on ice, smoked some weed, and joked a little, cementing a relationship that has lasted to this day. On a different day within a few weeks at the same location, it was informally agreed to join together with the Young Patriots. BPP Field Marshall Bob Lee was working with them. The three groups, who were already major players within their own communities, became the original members of the alliance known as the Rainbow Coalition. This was followed by several press conferences announcing the Rainbow Coalition, including one where Congressman Bobby Rush, appears in a photo with the Young Lords, Young Patriots and other Black Panthers but where Mr. Jiménez and Mr. Hampton were unable to be present. The Rainbow Coalition was strongly woven together to the credit of the organizations that took part in it. They all were committed and followed the same vanguard ideology of the BPP. But it is significant to note that the Rainbow Coalition was more symbolic than a structured organization. It was the mass way for all the grassroots organizations to find common ground and to join together for support of each other’s struggles, and it soon spread to other movements and groups like Rising Up Angry, the Intercommunal Survival Committees, Red Guard, Brown Berets, S.D.S. and many other groups in many cities. After the Young Lords went underground and the Puerto Rican and low income residents of Lincoln Park were completely removed by Mayor Richard J. Daley and his patronage machine, Dr. Boelter moved south to Morgan Park. Dr. Boelter also joined the Progressive Labor Party. The Progressive Labor Party had left the Communist Party years before, because their belief was that “they want to skip the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and go right into utopia.” They are against racism and respect workers, but do not want to cling on to leaders or unions, preferring to organize the masses. They have been accused of “catering more to the petty bourgeoisie and the aristocracy of labor.” Then they rejected the Black Panthers and Young Lords use of Nationalism as an important step. They also had become part of S.D.S. and by 1969 were their largest faction. Dr. Boelter today is still a member. These political discussions on all sides were part of the Lincoln Park era in the late 60s and 70s. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, John, if you can give me your full name and your date of birth and where you were born. JOHN BOELTER: Sure. My name is John Boelter. I was born May 15, 1942 so I’m 70 years old this year. I was born in Des Moines, Iowa. Did I answer all those questions? JJ: That’s right, you did good. So were your parents’ name and that? JB: Yeah, my parents are both deceased. [Fred?] Boelter was my father and [Margaret?] Boelter my mother. JJ: And they’re both from Iowa? JB: My mother is from Iowa, my father was from Detroit, Michigan. Yeah. JJ: All right. Boelter, is that an Italian name or...? JB: It was German. German background, right. JJ: Okay. All right. Not that it mattered. [00:01:00] Any brothers and sisters and their names? JB: I have six brothers and sisters. I’m the oldest of seven. The oldest is -- next to me is [Ruth?], my sister, and then [Paul?], my brother. My brother [James?], my sister [Helen?], brother [Robert?], and brother [Mark?]. JJ: Okay. Are they in Chicago any of them or...? JB: They’re scattered. My brother [Jim?] is in Manhattan. Mark is the closest; He’s in Springfield, Illinois. He’s the youngest. Paul’s in St. Louis, Helen’s in Ohio, Ruth is in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and Robert’s out in -- 1 �JJ: Robert’s where? JB: Robert is in Oregon, Portland. Portland, Oregon. JJ: Oh, okay. Okay. What kind of work are they into? Just [00:02:00] touch upon. If you can touch on that a little bit. JB: Okay. Ruth is a retired nurse, an RN. Paul is -- he had a custom carpentry business. He sold it and went back to college and a few years ago, started teaching math in middle school math. Jim just retired from banking in New York. He didn’t do that much. He worked for the bank, but he did mostly communications work; Their electronic systems and stuff like that. Let’s see, who’s next? JJ: You got to protect him there because the bankers (laughter) have a better rap today. JB: They had backup systems for their electronics and he was in charge of what they call hotspots or something like that, the backup [00:03:00] systems. Helen is a medical transcriber; Works from home online. Bob, basically his main job is he gets paid by the state of Oregon to be his wife’s caregiver. And he does some other work on the side; You know, delivery work. Mark is retired and in a nursing home. Who did I forget? I think I got everybody, right? JJ: Okay. That’s good. You said you have some children also or...? JB: Yes. My oldest is my son [Aaron?]. He’ll be 43 this year. Next is my daughter [Adrienne?] who lives in Atlanta. My son Aaron is an art teacher like his mother, my ex-wife. Adrienne lives in Atlanta. She’s [00:04:00] in videos and media 2 �communications. My middle daughter lives in Chicago here. This is my wife, [Ellen?] coming in. (laughs) This is Cha-Cha Jimenez. ELLEN BOELTER: Hi. How are you? (inaudible) no, that’s okay, go ahead. JJ: That’s okay, all right. EB: Go ahead. I’ll be out here. JB: So I was talking about [Susana?], my middle daughter. She’s currently unemployed but she was also in video and media reproduction work. EB: I really am -- I was just trying to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) for the research. JB: Okay. My youngest is [Brenda?] who lives in and works in Colorado. She works for the Colorado state parks as a biologist. JJ: Okay. Then that’s what you do, too. You teach? JB: I teach biology, right. JJ: Okay. [00:05:00] So how did you arrive in Chicago? How did you get here? JB: I came to Chicago to look for work; A teaching job. I came from Valparaiso, Indiana. I was working and teaching. I was a graduate assistant at Valparaiso University where I’d also got my undergraduate work. A job fell through in Fort Wayne, Indiana so one of the professors at Valpo said come on to Chicago. He was a sociology professor and a football coach. He had an urban studies program going. He said, “Come on in. I’ll help you get a job and a place to live and you can help me talk to my students.” So that’s how I got here. Fall of ’66 -(break in audio) 3 �JB: -- in urban studies with the professor. I was already out of undergraduate work and [00:06:00] starting my master’s program. But I needed to work so I came to Chicago. JJ: And you landed work right away. Where? JB: Waller High School. JJ: Okay, Waller High School. JB: Yeah. Which is now known as Lincoln Park High School. JJ: And what year was that? JB: Nineteen sixty-six; Fall of ’66. JJ: Oh, ’66. Okay. So what was that like? I mean that year at Waller? What was the population of the school? JB: Population of the school. I’d say the majority of my students were Black from the Cabrini-Green Projects. Then the next largest group were the Puerto Rican students from around -- in the neighborhood around the school. Then there were a few white students from the white area of Lincoln Park. JJ: So the Black students were bussed in or how was that? JB: I don’t recall any school buses but [00:07:00] they would’ve come on public transportation. Yeah. JJ: Oh, public transportation. But the neighborhood was Puerto Rican at that time. Is that what you’re saying? The Puerto Ricans were from around there. JB: Yeah, the neighborhood, the housing right around the school. The blocks around the school were actually being torn down by mayor Daley’s urban renewal project. 4 �JJ: At that time. JB: Yeah, when I get off from the bus stop, I had two blocks to walk to the school every morning and I’d see them tearing down another home. So -- JJ: In ’66 already at that time. JB: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Were there any gangs at all or anything at the school? JB: Yeah. I couldn’t tell you what gangs exactly. There was some –- but I don’t remember that there were -- it was a big problem. But kids came from CabriniGreen and some kids were in gangs there. Then I guess the Young Lords were sort of known as a gang. At the time I came, I wasn’t [00:08:00] really that familiar with any students outside my classroom in the Puerto Rican community. JJ: So there were some gangs but it really wasn’t a big problem. JB: No, it wasn’t. It wasn’t a big problem. JJ: Okay. All right. So you came to Waller and you’re coming from Valparaiso, Indiana but you grew up in Des Moines, Iowa? JB: I grew up in Iowa. I lived there until I was 11. Then we moved to Wisconsin. I finished the eighth grade. Actually, I –- from sixth grade to eighth grade, we lived in two places in Wisconsin. Then I went to high school in Wisconsin, graduated from high school and started college at Stevens Point, Wisconsin, the state college. It’s now called a state university at Stevens Point. Then my family moved to Ohio [00:09:00] and so I transferred to Valparaiso, Indiana to Valparaiso University. JJ: Okay. You came into Waller and was that challenging for you or how did you...? 5 �JB: Yeah, it was a little bit of a culture shock. (laughter) Because I had until then then been from a rural area to -- through high school, I lived in the country, basically. A rural area. Farming country. Valparaiso, Indiana was the biggest town I’d ever been in when I went to college. Again, pretty much of a homogeneous population. White. So coming into Waller High School was, with mainly a minority population, was a big change for me. JJ: What about the professors? (inaudible) So the population was mainly minority in ’66, but what about the...? JB: Professors were mainly white. JJ: Were mainly white at that time? JB: [00:10:00] Right. JJ: Any Latinos or African Americans at that time or that you were aware of? JB: Not at the beginning that I’m aware of. Later on, there was a student boycott. Some of the demands were to bring in more African American teachers and African American history. JJ: And you were involved in some of that boycott. JB: Yes, I was. JJ: Can you tell me about that or...? JB: In the fall of ’68, I’m pretty sure it was ’68, a lot of things happened that year. Martin Luther King was shot at the Democratic Convention. But when we came back to school, some of the nationalists living in the projects, Black nationalists, were working with some of the students and they were taking militant [00:11:00] action like pulling fire alarms and emptying the school. Then trying to get picket 6 �lines going and things like that. Raising demands. Everything from more toilet paper in the washroom to Black history courses. I’d be getting to know my students and some of their parents and it just seemed to me that that was the side -- in that particular struggle, that was the side that I identified with. So I got involved and help organize it. JJ: Okay. So you helped to organize the boycott. JB: Right. JJ: Okay. Were you a member of any group or anything or just doing it in...? JB: No, I wasn’t. I was still kept in touch with the professor from Valparaiso. My background is Lutheran and Valparaiso is a Lutheran-affiliated university. So I went to a Lutheran church [00:12:00] over in LaSalle. I forget the name of that high-rise, middle-class housing community there. JJ: Sandburg Village? JB: Sandburg Village. Right, very good. Yeah. There was a church there that I attended. The Valpo students that came into town were Lutheran so that was their base of operations out of that church, too. So I was part of that little community, as well. At one point, I belonged to a group called Lutheran [Action?] –- JJ: Actually, Sandburg came after we were displaced from there, too, because it was -- used to be called [La Clark?]. That neighborhood was called –- JB: Oh, I wasn’t aware of the history. JJ: Then Sandburg Village came after that. That’s why I know Sandburg, but... JB: Oh, okay. (laughs) When I knew it, those high-rises were already up, so -- 7 �JJ: But you lived there, too. You lived in that area. JB: I lived just within walking distance just a couple blocks over, yeah. JJ: [00:13:00] (inaudible) it was within the same neighborhood. JB: Right. That was on LaSalle Street. I lived on Sedgwick which was a couple blocks west of there. JJ: In the gardens you mentioned. JB: Town and Country Gardens. JJ: Town and Country Gardens in Sedgwick. JB: Right. JJ: Okay. (inaudible) those apartments, housing. So you said you organized the boycott because your students were involved in it? JB: Yes, yes. JJ: Is that what you said or...? I don’t want to... JB: I can’t remember the exact circumstances how I got involved in it but I know I was talking -- I think there was a community organizer at an office in Lincoln Park. I’m sorry I don’t remember his name, he and his wife. They were telling me that there was a –- JJ: Did you know if their -- what their vision or (inaudible)? JB: Yeah, [00:14:00] it might’ve been the name. JJ: Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park? JB: That could’ve –-that’s possibly -- I can’t -- JJ: That was a group that worked with us later so... JB: Oh, okay. 8 �JJ: But I mean, it may have been somebody else. JB: Yeah. JJ: But they were connected to a church. To the North Side Cooperative Ministry. It’s not them. JB: No, that -- I don’t think so. I wouldn’t say for sure. I’m not -- it could be but my memory is kind of foggy on that. JJ: Okay. So you felt that you should get involved? Why did you feel that way or... You were a teacher at that time? JB: Well, I was saying a minute ago I was in the Lutheran Action Committee. On Sunday mornings, we used to go to church services to try and meet people and organize around civil [00:15:00] rights and anti-war demands. We would take burlap, colored burlap, and make a serape out of it. Put it over our shoulders. We would have cut-out letters that we put on it making slogans and peace symbols and things like that. (laugh) We’d sort of make a spectacle of ourselves and walk up and sit in the front of the church. Afterwards, try to meet people and get people involved in these discussions. So I was becoming conscious of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement and learning about those and supporting those demands. So I guess it just seemed what was happening at Waller was just a little bit like an extension of that. JJ: So the boycott was Black students and Latino students or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? JB: Yeah, and white students, too. JJ: And white students, too. Okay now, but they all joined together? 9 �JB: At first, yeah, we had a -- we called for a meeting. I say we because [00:16:00] I’m still not clear who else was involved at the beginning organizing it. I might’ve been one of the main people involved. But we organized at the church on Armitage near -- Armitage and Halsted. That’s a church that the Young Lords use -- eventually worked out of. Do you remember the name of it? JJ: Armitage Avenue United Methodist Church. JB: Okay. JJ: On Dayton and Armitage. JB: Yeah. So we got permission to use that for a meeting -- organizing a meeting. And I don’t know if we put out flyers or how the word got out but there was a -- it was a pretty good size meeting. A lot of people there from the projects, from Cabrini-Green. JJ: Now this was before the Young Lords took it over, the church or was...? JB: Yes, it was. JJ: It was before. JB: It was before that. JJ: So they were already letting you use it. JB: Yes. Yes, it was open to the community, I guess. [00:17:00] Then in the midst of that meeting, you and Ralph got up and said, “Where’s the demands for the Puerto Ricans?” I sort of stopped the meeting and we said -- JJ: Ralph is a -- Ralph Rivera. His nick name was Spaghetti. (laughter) JB: Right. Although nobody called him that to his face. 10 �JJ: Okay. We did, we did. I mean, it was just we grew up with him. But Ralph was one of the main Young Lords. JB: Right. I didn’t know either one of you at that time. That’s the beginning of our relationship. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Okay. So that was the beginning? JB: That was the beginning. So we stopped the meeting and had a caucus or you guys had a caucus and came up with some demands. We added those in and continued the meeting and made plans for the boycott. JJ: Okay. So this was [00:00:18] pre-Young Lords. This is just pre-Young Lords as a political group. This isn’t just for -- JB: Yeah. I would say you were just beginning. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Because as I got to know you, that’s what you were doing. So you were already started, I think, at that point. JJ: Right. Oh, okay. You were already started. Okay. Okay, I can understand the timeline. Okay, now what happened with the boycott? JB: We had another organizing meeting that I can remember but it was held in Cabrini-Green. At one point in it, it sort of broke up. There was some disagreement among the Black organizers and the students and so on, the nationalists. They wanted everybody [00:19:00] out so they could discuss their agreements among themselves. They didn’t want to be openly disagreeing, right? So after they straightened it out, there was another meeting. It never really got back together. Somehow, it just sort of -- everybody still wanted the boycott but there was -- it was difficult for Blacks and Puerto Ricans and whites to 11 �work together for some reason. I don’t know. So we ended up having a Black boycott center in Cabrini, we had a Puerto Rican boycott center I think was at the church -- the United Methodist Church. Then at the community center that you were mentioning before, there was some kind of community center in Lincoln Park. JJ: The Concerned Citizens? JB: I think it was the Concerned Citizens. JJ: They were on [Main?] -- JB: The white students had another boycott center, right? JJ: Oh yeah, they were on Lincoln and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JB: I got a few teachers to support it. The first day was pretty successful. There weren’t that many teachers [00:20:00] besides myself that actually were walking the picket line. JJ: Do you remember any of their names or...? JB: One was [Theresa Dubois?] who eventually became my wife. She’s now my exwife. Let’s see. I have another -- well, I still keep up with this man. I was at his house last week. [Myron Stoller?] was an English teacher. I don’t think he’ll mind me using his name because he’s still pretty radical so (laughs) -- JJ: He’s still pretty radical. JB: He’s retired. Yeah. He retired from Waller. He was there for 33 years. JJ: So there were a little group, contingent of radicals inside Waller High School -- JB: Yes, yes. 12 �JJ: -- that were working with the Young Lords and some of the other groups at the time. Okay. JB: Right. I don’t know how closely they worked with the Young Lords. JJ: No, no. Okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: Until the boycott but I didn’t know you guys before. JJ: We were getting close to you. JB: [00:21:00] Right. We were close and shortly after that, Ralph and I became roommates. We rented an apartment together. So at the time we had this meeting, the first organizing meeting, I was living in somebody’s living room temporarily while I was looking for a place to live. I had moved closer to the school. We were talking about -- JJ: Okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) You met Ralph at the meeting. JB: Yeah. And then we continued to -- JJ: You continued to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: -- through the boycott to continue to work together. And I don’t know, probably discussed that I was looking for a place to live and he must’ve been at the same time. JJ: Yeah, because he came from a different neighborhood, Lake View. He was hanging out with us every day at Lincoln Park so -- JB: Oh, okay. So we were both looking for a place to live. JJ: -- you were both looking for a place to live, yeah. Now, so the results of the boycott [00:22:00] was when? I don’t understand. 13 �JB: The first day, like I said, was pretty successful. But it just sort of fell apart after that. It went on for a while and I had been warned not to participate. So I figured I had lost my job by participating. (laughs) It’s a funny story. Just to make a long story short, I was out for two weeks. At one point, the assistant principal came to my -- to where I was staying and asked me to come back to work. So apparently, I was an embarrassment that they didn’t share with their superiors and covered -they covered for me. (laughs) And eventually asked me to come back to work and I started teaching again. I didn’t get paid for the time I was gone, but I got -I went back to teaching with no penalty. It was a weird situation. (laughs) But... JJ: The assistant principal, you said? Came to -- JB: Yeah, [00:23:00] came to my -- I was living in a friend’s living room. I was living with a friend in an apartment. And came to that apartment and asked to speak to me and asked me to come back to work. JJ: Now I remember the first time you met Fred Hampton was at your apartment. Do you recall that at all or...? Fred Hampton of the Black Panthers. JB: Right. I recall the meeting; I don’t recall much about it. I know we studied Mao’s Red Book. There were several Young Lords there. Ralph was there, I think you had to be there. Fred Hampton was there, several Panthers, myself. JJ: And some other Young Lords were there. JB: Right. Yeah. There were several Young Lords, several Panthers. JJ: What was the meeting like? How...? JB: I think it was a study group. Ralph was Minister of Education and [00:24:00] he was holding study groups. Mainly, they were held in the church. 14 �JJ: This was before the church. JB: I think you were -- JJ: I had been there a couple times. JB: -- yeah. I don’t know if you were starting to use the church more frequently or something. I’m not sure. JJ: Yeah, we were using it but -- JB: Yeah, I don’t think you had yet taken it over. Right? And -- JJ: So Ralph was doing the -- JB: Yeah, so he had invited me as his roommate to come to some of the study groups and there was an objection because I wasn’t Puerto Rican. So I think he was trying to have one in our apartment so that I could be included. JJ: (laughs) Okay. JB: There was also the -- by coincidence, it happened to be the same one that Fred Hampton was in so... JJ: Okay. So you came at that time. JB: Right. JJ: Okay. So because that is basically when we submitted the idea for the Rainbow Coalition at that time in one of those meetings. But he had come -- JB: Yeah, it could be. Yeah. JJ: So we were having some -- [00:25:00] so we were having classes in your house at that time. I know we were meeting. JB: Well, I only remember that one. I don’t know if there were others or not. They might’ve been held while I was at work. I was teaching school still. I had been 15 �already teaching at Waller High School for two years so I went to work every day. So yeah, so that’s the only one I remember. JJ: Okay, so you remember when Fred came there, though. JB: Yeah. Of course, that was very memorable because Fred Hampton was there. Yeah. JJ: That was the main one. I think that -- because you mentioned there were other Young Lords, other Panthers and that. So that was the main one. JB: And I remember we had Mao’s Red Book, we were reading out of that and talking -- discussing that. JJ: Okay, at the study groups. That was what was used at the study groups? JB: That one in our apartment was Fred Hampton. That’s the one I remember. That was the only one I was at that I can [00:26:00] remember. JJ: Okay. So we were talking about Mao’s Red Book at that meeting -- at the time of the meeting. JB: Yeah. Right. So I think it was basically a political study group. JJ: Okay. That we were having. Okay. JB: Yeah. There might’ve been other things discussed but I don’t recall them. JJ: Right. Okay. And what was the atmosphere? Was it formal or how was it? JB: No, it was informal. It was an informal atmosphere. Informal enough so that after discussion was over, somebody broke out the pot so (laughter) -- JJ: So that kind of -- JB: So everybody was participating. 16 �JJ: Right, afterwards. Okay. So Ralph passed away but he was one of the -- he and myself designed the button, the Young Lords button. JB: Yeah, I remember that button. JJ: Right. You remember that button when it [00:27:00] first came out? Okay. JB: Yeah. Yo tengo Puerto Rico en mi corazón. JJ: Yeah, right. That’s right. Okay, so I know from one perspective but how do you know Ralph? I mean, he was a roommate, so you saw him every day. But I mean would -- I don’t -- JB: Right. No, we got to be close friends. He married before I did. We got married, I think, in the same year. And so I was best man in his wedding and then he -- I asked him to be best man in my wedding. Unfortunately on the day of the wedding, he had to work. So he couldn’t be there at the ceremony. But no, I mean, we were very good friends. JJ: You mentioned the Red Book. Did he talk any other politics at all or...? JB: Oh, yeah. You guys took me one Sunday, I remember, one Sunday to -(break in audio) JB: -- an [00:28:00] elderly gentleman who was with the communist party and introduced me to Marxism. I had never done it before. I guess he was holding like a study group there so that was my introduction to Marxism, actually. JJ: Okay. At that time, we were all being introduced (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JB: Yeah. In the winter of ’68, during the winter break from school, there was a peace conference up in Montreal. Ralph and I took a bus, I think it was. Or 17 �somehow, we got to Detroit and then we took a train, a Canadian train, when we got into Canada across the river from Detroit. Took a train to Montreal and participated in this peace conference. So we were doing all kinds of political activities like that. When the boycott wasn’t going very strong and Ralph said, “We need support. [00:29:00] Why don’t we go over to Circle Campus, University of Illinois? There’s an SDS chapter there.” So we went to an SDS meeting and we asked for support from SDS. One of the SDS members was a member of the Progressive Labor Party. That’s how I first met somebody in Progressive Labor Party. JJ: So did you become active in Progressive Labor Party? JB: Yeah, I started reading their newspaper and the member that I met at Circle Campus also lived near Waller High School. He came to visit me and I started going to some of their meetings and I’ve been involved ever since. JJ: Oh, so you’re still involved with the Progressive Labor Party? JB: Yeah, yeah. I joined in ’71, 1971. JJ: And at that time, were there a lot of groups like the Progressive Labor Party in Lincoln Park or...? Because it became sort of -- JB: No. They weren’t exactly in Lincoln Park; They were -- in just a small group in Chicago. JJ: Oh, in Chicago. JB: [00:30:00] Yeah. JJ: Okay. But Lincoln Park. You lived right down the street from the church. JB: Yeah, I lived on Dayton. Dayton and Armitage. 18 �JJ: When someone says like Manuel Ramos, were you around when that happened or...? JB: Yes. My first wife, Theresa, and I had just gotten married in April of ’69. As I mentioned, Ralph was supposed to be my best man at the wedding. We were married in her mother’s house in Maywood but we had our reception in Old Town in Chicago. Actually, we’d been threatened by some of the same nationalists who had supported the boycott from Cabrini-Green. They didn’t like the [00:31:00] fact that we were a mixed couple. Theresa’s African American and I’m white, right? They actually came to our apartment one time. We knew them through the boycott so we were friendly to some extent. They appeared at the door. We were at the kitchen table writing out our wedding invitations and they came in and started tearing up our invitations and pushing us around. Pulled the phone out of the wall and left with a couple of our invitations. So at the wedding reception, a number of Young Lords provided security from our wedding reception. (laughter) Because we didn’t know if they’d show up or not. They had the address on the wedding invitation so... JJ: Can you tell me about Manuel? JB: So yeah, so then Manuel Ramos, right? So as I remember it, we went to [Sal Delavera?]’s house. I think that was the name. His daughter [00:32:00] was I think two or something like that. He was having a birthday party for his daughter. JJ: I think it could’ve been [Orlando?] and them with Sal. JB: Yeah. I won’t argue. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) it could be. It could be, yeah. I’m not sure. 19 �JJ: Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know. I think Sal was arrested in -- during that day, too, though. So you could be right. I don’t know. I don’t know whose house it was. I know it was something to do with Orlando’s birthday, maybe Sal’s. I don’t know. JB: Right. So anyway, it was at the birthday party. There were some shots fired outside. We heard ‘em from inside. Then a few minutes later, somebody said, “There’s a guy with a gun outside.” So some of us actually went outside to see this person. There was a guy in jeans, a t-shirt holding a pistol. So we were outside trying to find out what [00:33:00] he was about and trying to keep him calm. We didn’t know til later that he was an officer -- police officer. He eventually fired into the doorway of the house where the party was. And had me by the arm at that point. I was close to him so he had grabbed me by the arm. He said he saw a gun in the doorway, he shot into the house. That’s when he shot Manuel in the eye, he shot Ralph in the jaw. Eventually, the police came. I don’t know if you already -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) at that moving? JB: At what? JJ: He shot him and then what happened? What at that moment? JB: Well, at that moment the other police –- JJ: Did somebody try to attend to Manuel or to...? JB: The police pulled him out. I was still outside. I don’t know what happened inside. I didn’t know Ralph was shot til later at the hospital. All I remember is that the police showed up. [00:34:00] It was very chaotic. I remember them -- four of 20 �them carrying Manuel out of the house like a sack of feed and throwing him into the paddy wagon. I jumped in with them. JJ: You saw that? JB: Oh, yeah. And I jumped into the back of the paddy wagon with Manuel. He was bleeding, he was choking on his blood, and I remember there was a towel on the back of his head so I was holding the back of his head with a towel. I had my fingers in his mouth so that he wouldn’t –- to try to keep his throat clear so he wouldn’t choke on his blood. That’s the way we went to the hospital. When we got to the emergency room, they took him inside. Then outside, I saw [Jackie?] and I know other people. My wife was there. Eventually realized that Ralph had been shot, too. I didn’t know that. They told me Ralph [00:35:00] had been shot and he was in the emergency room, also. So Manuel died about a half hour later. I don’t remember much about the rest of the night (laughs) except we got home somehow so... JJ: Okay. So you saw Jackie and you saw your wife, and you –- JB: There probably were other people there, too. I just don’t recall exactly who. Right. JJ: So you’re not aware if anybody got arrested or anything like that or...? JB: I don’t think anybody got arrested at that point. I don’t recall anybody getting arrested. JJ: Okay. And (inaudible) got arrested -- JB: Ralph never got arrested that I recall. 21 �JJ: No, no. He didn’t get arrested but there were like four of the Young Lords and the [Quatro?] Lords would come together. JB: Well, okay. That was a detail that I didn’t remember that. JJ: Yeah, they were trying to grab the police or something like that. JB: Yeah, well probably the people around me. I jumped in the paddy wagon so I –that’s probably why I didn’t get arrested. (laughs) Because I was on my way to the hospital. JJ: Oh, okay. [00:36:00] That’s what happened. So tell me about the –- what other events do you recall during that time? What do you -- like for example, the McCormick Seminary where -- JB: Yeah, I remember –- forget exactly what year that was. JJ: I think it was the same year. JB: Was that the same year? JJ: Actually, right after [Ramos?], right after Ramos. JB: [Ron?] Ravos? Okay. So -- JJ: Because we named the building after (inaudible). JB: Oh, the law office or the seminary building? JJ: No, the seminary. JB: Okay. Yeah, I remember that the –- that you guys took over the McCormick Seminary administration building. I wasn’t part of the takeover [00:37:00] but I was aware of the plans and I would often go over after work, after school, and I would be admitted into the administration building and I would be assigned a guard duty of some kind. 22 �JJ: So what was it like inside? JB: It was pretty well organized and –- JJ: What do you mean by that? I mean, (inaudible) kind of -- JB: Everybody seemed to have a job to do. I don’t remember exactly the details. I just remember it wasn’t chaotic or anything. Everybody seemed to know what they were doin’. They were continually, constantly prepared in case the police would try to storm the building or take it back. I don’t know. I was part of the guard duty watching out a window. I was up in the back floor somewhere to let anybody know if the police approach from that angle. Then later on, I would go home [00:38:00] afterwards and –- JJ: So you didn’t even sleep there. You went home. JB: No, I didn’t sleep there that I recall. Yeah. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) coming and going at the time. JB: Right. JJ: And press conferences during the day. People –- JB: Yeah. I would be at work during the day. I would go home, sleep, go to work in the morning, and then after work, come back to the McCormick Seminary. JJ: So did it have support or apparently, you were supporting it. Were there other community people supporting it or...? JB: Actually, my landlord was a professor there. He couldn’t say so openly but I think he was in favor of it. Maybe helped to work out the arrangement. They eventually came up with some money. I don’t know, 60- or 70,000 dollars I think it was which was used –- 23 �JJ: Six hundred and one thousand dollars to be invested in low-income housing. JB: Oh, was it? Okay. JJ: Then also [00:39:00] 25,000 for the law office. JB: Well, I understood there was some -- that’s the way it went. Okay. JJ: Twenty-five thousand for the clinics. A couple clinics in the -- JB: Oh, very good. Okay. I didn’t remember all the -- I remember the law office. I remember that some of that money –- JJ: You remember the law office. JB: -- opened The People’s Law Office on Halsted. A couple of the lawyers who worked there, [Skip Andrews?] [Cunningham?], I don’t remember his first name. JJ: [Dennis?]. JB: Dennis? Yeah, [Dennis Cunningham?]. Yeah, I think his son just ran for office in this ward recently. JJ: Oh, did he? JB: Or legis-- maybe no, he just ran for state legislature in this area recently. I don’t remember too much else about it. Oh, they handled the defense -- oh yeah, they handled the defense, then, I think of the four Young Lords were arrested, right? JJ: Right. JB: That was one of the first things they did from the law office. JJ: Exactly, that’s right. [00:40:00] The People’s Law Office did that because we -they got the initial funds from the McCormick’s Seminary takeover that we did. So it was successful. We won all the demands. We were there for (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- 24 �JB: It was successful. There was no police takeover, there was nobody arrested that I recall. Yeah, so it was very successful. JJ: So how did -- you were living in the community. Did you know the neighbors or no? JB: Yeah, I don’t know. I can’t remember names right off hand, but -- JJ: But you knew some of the neighbors? JB: Basically, I knew the Young Lords. I knew my students and their parents; Those were mainly the people I knew. JJ: And what were they saying about the Young Lords at that time? Were they afraid of them or...? JB: No, I think they were -- respected the Young Lords because the Young Lords were the group doing the [00:41:00] most around the housing problems. Because like I said, mayor Daley was tearing down the Puerto Rican community and I think it was the beginning of gentrification, regentrification. So there were a lot of white –- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the beginning. JB: -- young, white yuppies moving in the neighborhood, buying buildings, renovating them, raising the rent so the people couldn’t move back in, (inaudible). JJ: So you’re saying that was the beginning in Chicago of gentrification or...? JB: No, I’m just talking about the Lincoln Park neighborhood which is a very expensive neighborhood now. JJ: Oh, the Lincoln Park neighborhood, okay. Okay, so that was the beginning of the gentrification? 25 �JB: Yes. That was the beginning of gentrification of Lincoln Park. JJ: At Lincoln Park. JB: At Lincoln Park, right. JJ: Okay. You said they were destroying the Puerto Rican neighborhood. Why do you say that? How –- JB: I took the Sedgwick bus to school. I lived on Sedgwick at about 1400 Sedgwick and I used to take the bus then up to [00:42:00] –- the bus stop was two blocks from Waller High School. So I had a two-block walk every morning from the bus stop to the high school itself. I just recall several mornings seeing the bulldozers taking down another house. It seemed like every day, they were tearing down another house. So if you go to Lincoln Park High School now, you see this beautiful campus with the tennis courts and the parking and the green lawn, park area and everything. That all used to be Puerto Rican housing back in ’68, ’69. JJ: So this Waller High School expanded, basically. Are there Puerto Ricans living there at all in any part of Lincoln Park that you know of? JB: I have no idea. I moved out in ’75 or ’76, right in there. I don’t get back there much (laughs) so... JJ: Okay. So you haven’t seen the [00:43:00] change. JB: When I do go through there, I mean I can see the changes. It’s not recognizable from what I -- the neighborhood I remember. The Lincoln Park I remember from ’69, ’70. It’s completely different now. JJ: Because of Ralph, because you guys were roommates, you were able to get closer than other people to the Young Lords. 26 �JB: Yes. JJ: What were your impressions or what was -- how did you see them? You knew them before because you came in ’66 when they were just a little local game. JB: Right. I didn’t really know them even then. When you guys came to participate in the school boycott, that’s when I first got to know you. Then I remember [00:44:00] going to some meetings at the high school around housing issues. JJ: Can you describe how they were? Were they intellectual or what? How were they? JB: I would say they were a militant group that raised good political demands in these meetings. I also remember one time marching down to –- a small group of us marching down to a neighborhood real estate office. I don’t remember the exact name. JJ: [Larry?] -- that was Larry’s. His name was [Fat Larry?] but we gave him that name. JB: (laughs) Okay. I think it was an Italian name like [Romano?] or something –- JJ: Like Romano, yeah, or something like that. JB: -- the name of the real estate company. I was -- JJ: Bissel Street Realty I think it was called. Bissel –- JB: That could be it. Because it was -- yeah, it was a lot. Remember it was west on Armitage and that’s where Bissel Street would’ve been west of Dayton, [00:45:00] right? I remember I stayed outside. It was in the winter time, I believe. I stayed outside because Ralph said it was -- might be tense inside. So they went in and came out a few minutes later. He said they had -- the people 27 �inside had brought out guns. So I sort of got the impression it was sort of mobaffiliated, you know? (laughter) JJ: Because they had guns -- some machine guns. JB: Yeah, right. They were big guns; They weren’t little hand guns. JJ: So you were outside. Were you picketing or...? JB: Yeah, we were outside. We were picketing. JJ: There was picketing outside. JB: Yeah. JJ: And then we went inside. JB: Inside. JJ: And then they pulled out the guns on us. JB: Yeah, that’s what I was told when you guys came out. That’s why you’d left. You weren’t going to get in a shootout. Obviously, that wouldn’t have helped anything. But those are the kind of actions. Taking militant actions, direct actions against the people who were making [00:46:00] money off of this changeover and gentrification. JJ: Okay. So do you know the different institutions that were working with that at that time? JB: I think you guys had started some kind of a breakfast program similar to the Panthers –- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: -- at the Methodist church? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) church. 28 �JB: Sure. So some of my students I knew had breakfast there, came to school after having breakfast there and yeah. So for myself and the people I knew in the community –- JJ: So you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) personally went in there? JB: Yeah. JJ: Did they talk to you about that or...? JB: Probably did. I can’t remember in detail but I was aware that that was happening. So from my perspective and the people I knew like me and likeminded people in the community and at the school, we had respect for the Young Lords. JJ: So in the school, Waller High School. JB: Right. JJ: There was respect at that time. Was there respect in [00:47:00] the community then also or...? The school, of course, there... JB: That was my feeling. In the Puerto Rican community and in the people I knew in the white community and in the Black community in Cabrini-Green. JJ: The reason I asked –- JB: But then all the people that were trying to get to regentrify and worried about their property, they were against us. JJ: So it was controversial. JB: So it was -- yeah, right. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah, it definitely was a controversial group. It was always my feeling that’s why they changed the name of Waller High School to Lincoln Park. They’re trying to dissociate themselves 29 �from that reputation that Waller had. Because it was -- in the school and outside the school, there was a lot of political activity. The boycott was very political and the Young Lords were leading a lot of political activity around the housing [00:48:00] issues. To me, having come from a non-political background, I was just eating it up. That was my education. My political consciousness was coming about that year of ’68, ’69, and after that. I just continued to grow after that politically. JJ: Did you see any other people or professors or anyone that were waking up at that time? Was that an impact that the Young Lords were having also with some people? With some of the people or no? It was also the time, it was also the time. JB: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) No, I -- yeah, I think it was mainly the times. There was a lot of stuff going on. Anti-war movement was still growing. I remember participating in demonstrations downtown. Big demonstrations, thousands of people. JJ: So the Young Lords were the ones that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) morale because people were already feeling that way. I’m putting words in your mouth. JB: Yeah, I mean [00:49:00] everything sort of flowed together. Those of us -- we may have been involved -- the centers of our activities may be in different places but when we got together, we talked the same language. So... JJ: Okay. I don’t see that today. But at that time, I felt that there was unity. Was it just me or did you feel that? Some kind of -- in the community or...? 30 �JB: As far as anti-racism and anti-Vietnam War, I think there was a lot of unity among various groups of people and various individuals. I guess I had a unique perspective because through Ralph as far as the Young Lords go. I guess some of my friends outside that circle, you know, at school knew I was involved. People I was close [00:50:00] to. (break in audio) JB: And no one chastised me for being involved with the Young Lords. JJ: Actually, many of the Young Lords went to that school. So -- JB: Yeah, I’m sure. JJ: So some of the teachers knew them personally. I mean, I only went to two months (laughter) but I did know some of the teachers there also. But I know that all of the Young Lords -- the majority, not all, of course -- but the majority had gone through there. To Waller High School. The teachers -- JB: Yeah, right. It was a neighborhood school, right? JJ: Right. So coming out in the protest, the teachers would know about that. Were they being impacted by some of the protests because some of them did come out in the news, at the local news at that time. JB: The protest organized by the Young Lords or the school [00:51:00] protest? JJ: Right, right. Well, both. Were they being -- the teachers, were they -- how was that? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: Yeah. There was a small group of us within the school -- actually, it wasn’t even that small -- who were constantly -- we were caught between the administration and the militancy of the students. We sympathized with the students. So we 31 �were all -- therefore had our own problems with the administration. I remember one time, for instance, because the students, one of the tactic was to pull the fire alarm and empty the building to get everybody out. Sometimes, there’d be fights outside and people would be injured. We finally said, “We’re not taking our students out anymore.” The principal said, “No, you can’t do that because of the fire code.” We said, “We don’t care.” We organized and we overrode [00:52:00] the principal and we refused to honor the fire bell after that. We set it up so that we could tell -- we could communicate with each other and find out for sure that there was no fire going on. But when daily fire bells are happening daily, and so we just stopped it. JJ: So you guys were protesting against the principal. The administration of the school at the time. JB: We didn’t have an open protest but we would refuse to do certain things that they wanted us to do. In other words, we would support the students to that extent. JJ: Right. The students were protesting. JB: Yes. JJ: So the students were protesting and you were refusing the Young Lords that are also doing their things. The community is on fire, basically. JB: Yeah, there were also -- right. No, there’s a lot of -- yeah, a lot of activity. [00:53:00] The white liberals in -- at the Concerned Citizens center. The nationalists and the students coming from Cabrini-Green. Everybody was -- JJ: The Black nationalists from Cabrini-Green. The projects there, Cabrini-Green. 32 �JB: Yeah. Everybody was involved in some form. For instance, one of my students - I won’t mention his name because I don’t know right now whether he would appreciate it. But I went to see him later on in life; Nineteen ninety-seven, I looked him up and found him. But at that time, he was a young Black male student and lived in the projects. I think he was about 17. He organized a group called the Black Assassins. It was a anti-racist group and it was (laughs) intriguing that he called it the Black Assassins because he had Black students, he had Puerto Rican students, he had white students in the group. [00:54:00] They would meet in Black homes, Puerto Rican homes, and white homes. At one point, they were meeting in the home of a white student in Lincoln Park in the basement and the police raided the meeting and took them all to jail. Segregated them into cells, white, Black, and Puerto Rican, and told them that’s the way it should be. They use as a pre-text that they had confiscated drugs but none of us believed it. Because we knew the student and he was mainly about the organizing, political organizing. None of us believed that -- we thought that just the police probably planted the drugs. JJ: So this was the 18th district police station. JB: Yeah, 18th district. So -- JJ: Actually, that was [Commander O’Brien?] at the station. JB: So we organized -- yeah, I remember that name now. JJ: Because didn’t he go to jail later or...? JB: I don’t know. JJ: Yeah he did. 33 �JB: Did he? JJ: Yeah, [00:55:00] he went to jail for shaking down (inaudible). JB: Oh, good. He deserved it. JJ: Yeah. (laughs) He was our commander of the police. (laughs) Yeah, he was against the Young Lords but he went to jail for shaking down (inaudible). JB: This was the kind of thing that was happening up at Waller High School. JJ: (inaudible) (laughs) JB: Yeah, no. Yeah, but I’m just saying that that’s the kind of thing -- that’s the relationship with the police. I’m glad you brought that up. Because we went down after Manuel Ramos was shot, we went down and had a demonstration at the police station there after that. But to finish the story about the Black Assassins, so they -- the school tried to kick out the student. In fact, that’s eventually how I lost my job up there. Any time a Black student or a Puerto Rican student would turn 16 or 17, whatever the age when they could legally kick them out of school, they would get out all their records, look for [00:56:00] discipline problems, they would look for grades, anything. Any excuse to drop them. So anyway, so this student organized the Black Assassins, they tried to kick him out. They asked me to sign the sheet and I would not. I refused to sign him out. So I called his mother and asked if she knew that they were trying to get him out of the school. She didn’t know. So we organized a sit-in at the school; At the counselor’s office. We coordinated the time when she would come up to visit the counselor to inquire about her son. We had it all worked out in advance. We put out flyers and called for a sit-in. At the time they came up to the school, the 34 �student body and myself and anybody else -- I forget if there were other teachers involved -- we all went down by the counselors’ offices and occupied the hallway and sat down. We wouldn’t leave until they let him back in [00:57:00] school. JJ: This was the teachers again and the students. JB: Mainly students. I don’t know if there were other teachers. JJ: You occupied the hallway -- JB: I remember that -- JJ: -- of Waller High School. JB: Right. JJ: So Waller High School was occupied not to mention that DePaul University was occupied. JB: Right. Or the seminary? McCormick Seminary? No? JJ: Yeah. No, no, no, DePaul University was occupied by the Black Student Union at that time. JB: Oh no kidding, I didn’t -- JJ: Right after we occupied McCormick Seminary. JB: Oh, very good. I didn’t recall that. JJ: Yeah. The Young Lords occupied McCormick Seminary for a week and then the Black Student Union occupied DePaul. Now, I wasn’t aware of Waller was being occupied -- JB: Yeah, just that one afternoon. JJ: Right. The hospitals were occupied, there were -- they were occupying -- JB: Well, yeah. It was 1968. It was like a watershed year. It was a lot of things. 35 �JJ: But all of this was going on in Lincoln Park, too, in that [00:58:00] community also. JB: Yeah. I think that was in 1970, I believe. JJ: Nineteen -- yeah, it was the exact year. JB: Because we did try to do the same thing for another student in ’71. The principal had had enough. He called in the police and they just came in arresting everybody. I was arrested for trying to keep a student from being arrested and that’s how I lost my job there. JJ: What kind of charge? JB: Eventually, it went to court. They charged me with assaulting two cops and the principal. Those are the charges. I would’ve had felony charges. I went before the grand jury. JJ: You went -- oh, it was a felony. JB: Yeah. So when I went to -- finally went to court, to trial, I had an attorney from the Northwestern University Legal Assistance Clinic, a free clinic, [00:59:00] and he went into talk to the judge. He said the people from the Board of Education were there and they said, “We don’t want him teaching anywhere ever again.” They said in return for that, we’ll agree to reduce the felonies to misdemeanor. My lawyer was really steamed because there were two different situations in two different courts. My job was -- had been ruled on by a hearing in front of the board when they fired me. How did that go? So he said it was unethical. That I should -- he would be my attorney but that he figured I should -- he agreed on my behalf to [01:00:00] accept the plea to a lower -- to misdemeanors. I didn’t go to 36 �jail. So I went through the trial but it was a farce. We knew in advance what the outcome was going to be, that they would find me guilty of misdemeanors instead of felonies. So I had -- I got two years’ probation. JJ: Okay. You got two years’ probation for that? JB: Right. JJ: And you completed the full two years? JB: But my lawyer said that their -- what they did was unethical, what this judge did. And that he gave me the name of another lawyer. He said, “I can’t represent you because I agreed to this.” But he said, “Here’s the name of a lawyer. You should get a lawyer and challenge this and not accept it.” But it was going to cost too much money. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) they call a plea deal to -- JB: To not go to -- to stay out of jail. I mean, a plea deal to stay out of jail. Yeah. JJ: You had to plead guilty. JB: Yeah. JJ: And that was a common thing at that time. JB: But see, it wasn’t like you see on TV where [01:01:00] they go before the judge and say, “We reached this plea agreement.” In other words, the plea agreement was made undercover in a back room and they went through the farce of the trial to cover it up. JJ: Okay, I gotcha. 37 �JB: So I was found guilty by the judge who already knew in advance he was going to reduce it to misdemeanors. But they went through the farce of a jury trial. They actually had the jury hear the -- JJ: Oh, it went to the jury. JB: -- the jury, yeah, and find me guilty. But I don’t know how they redu-- maybe the state’s attorney reduced the charges first. But anyway, I was -- JJ: Had you ever been arrested before or anything? JB: No, that was my first time. JJ: That was your first time. JB: Yeah, I was (laughs) completely unprepared for it. I remember going to court for the first time. I didn’t even have a lawyer. I was completely bewildered, I was trying to figure out what to do, and there -- and I’m trying to ask people and they’re just pushing me aside. So [01:02:00] I finally got a lawyer but like I said, I went to the legal assistance clinic. And he represented me both at trial and also at a hearing. I had a hearing in front of the Board of Education when they actually fired me. Yeah, so that was a lot of activity in those years. JJ: Ralph was a member of the Young Lords gang because the Young Lords gang transformed in 1968. It went right from the gang into the political group. But for a gang member, how did he act to you? Did he appear like a gang member or...? JB: No, no. None of the Young Lords... Of course, I wasn’t familiar with what a gang was, but I consider the Young Lords my friends and we socialize as well as participated in political [01:03:00] activities. I was on friendly terms with everybody. 38 �JJ: How did they treat people? Just, you know... JB: Yeah. I thought they treated people with respect in the community. And they were fighting for people around the issues of housing as well as racism. But mainly the one -- the activities I participated in were around the housing issues. JJ: Because I know that you’re saying that there was some people who had special interests in Lincoln Park who referred to the Young Lords as a gang. Because that has stuck on a lot of people today. JB: Right, because they saw it as a threat -- JJ: They don’t even want to associate with the Young Lords because they were uncultured or... JB: They didn’t bring that up. Mainly, they said that because they felt they were a threat to their property values. JJ: They came right out and said that. JB: Yeah. JJ: [01:04:00] Okay. So that’s what -- JB: Otherwise they were constantly asking for police protection. I’m thinking these are young white guys about my age, right? Why aren’t they seeing what’s going on? Here they are, very conservative, worried about their property and their money and all. So I think they saw the Young Lords as a threat to their property values. JJ: Okay, so that’s what they saw as a threat to the property value. Here’s a gang and -- JB: Yeah. So they couldn’t characterize them as a gang, right? 39 �JJ: But before then, it was a Puerto Rican area where they -- at least around the church. JB: Yeah. It still was, it just was fewer and fewer every year. Fewer and fewer Puerto Ricans living there every year. I left in ’70-- let’s see. I stayed living in the community even though I lost my job in ’71. I was married [01:05:00] and living a little up on Kenmore and Webster. JJ: Oh, Kenmore and Webster, okay. JB: Right. By Roma’s pizza parlor there. JJ: Right. JB: Yeah. So I was still in the community although at that point, I had a different job and I was going out of the community to work. So I was no longer working in a community. JJ: Okay. Now, when you saw the church, you saw the murals. (laughs) What type of impact was that? What were on the murals? What was -- JB: I’m sorry, I -- that’s all -- no, I don’t remember the murals, either. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) at all? They were very clear, visible. They were painted on the church; On the church walls. You didn’t pay attention to it? JB: Just vaguely; I couldn’t remember any of the details of it. JJ: Not the details but I mean -- JB: I remember there were murals, yes. JJ: Okay, you remember [01:06:00] there were murals. But that didn’t happen at that -- 40 �JB: But that was one thing that happened and I think the breakfast program. I don’t know, was there any educational programs? Tutoring, that kind of thing I think was going on? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Puerto Rican history classes were going on there. But we had the clinic also. We had a free clinic. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: Okay. Yeah, I don’t remember all those details. I was probably aware of it at the time but -- JJ: So people just can’t -- JB: -- some things stick out in my mind now at the age of 70 (laughs) and some things are lost. Some things are coming back to me when you mention names like the police captain’s name. I recognize that name but I haven’t thought about that for -- since that time so... JJ: Right. It’s on my mind because I’m doing this research. But... [01:07:00] (pause) Okay, were you at any of the marches or anything like that or...? JB: That the Young Lords did? JJ: Right. You mentioned one at the police station. JB: Yeah, down at the police station that time we visited the real estate office. JJ: What about Rev. Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson? Do you remember when they were killed? JB: Yes. JJ: What do you remember? I was in jail then. What do you remember about that? JB: Oh. I just remember -- 41 �JJ: I got -- he bonded me out to come up to service. The bishop bonded me out to come to the service. JB: I couldn’t tell you if I went to the service or not. JJ: But how did that affect -- was there any talk at the school? Or any...? JB: I [01:08:00] know people, everybody had a different idea what might’ve happened. JJ: What was the talk at that time? JB: Some of the talk of -- let’s see if I can remember. Because I guess they’d been -actually been tied up and something like being executed. I guess some people may have thought that gangs were involved. Some people may’ve thought it was just a crazed drug person or something look for money. I don’t know. I really can’t recall exactly what people were talking about but I just remember speculating with people about it why. It was a mystery to most -- me and my friends. We couldn’t quite figure out -- JJ: But it was being discussed [01:09:00] or no? JB: Well yes, it was definitely being discussed. My landlady who was a -- before I got married, anyway. I moved in with my wife -- my ex-wife, my fiancé at the time. Moved in with her and her sister in the Lincoln Park area. Their landlord and later my landlord, his wife was a teacher at Columbia College and I think she wrote an article about that that was in a major magazine. But I couldn’t tell you the name of the magazine and I don’t know that I’ve ever read the article. So it definitely was a topic of discussion in the area, yeah. But that’s as much as I can remember. 42 �JJ: But they thought [01:10:00] it could’ve been a gang or some crazy person? Because they were stabbed multiple times. So it could’ve been a... Some people even thought it was the Young Lords or was that discussed or no? JB: I didn’t think it was and I don’t recall that anybody that I was associated with thought it was. JJ: Why didn’t you think it was? JB: Because I knew the Young Lords. That just didn’t sound like Young Lords to me. I think the Young Lords had a good relationship with the church and the minister and would’ve respected him for opening up the church. I would imagine that he probably got some flack for it from his own congregation. To me, the [01:11:00] Young Lords were my friends. I participated in what they were doing because I thought it was right so... JJ: So you couldn’t -- would be something that it would be something incredible to be better for you to think that it would be the Young Lords. JB: Yeah, somebody would have to show me some really solid evidence before I would believe anything like that. JJ: Okay. But in -- could it have been planned at all? What the Young Lords were talking was that maybe it was planned by the CIA or somebody like that. JB: That I have no (laughs) -- JJ: Just giving you a different perspective. JB: Yeah, I don’t remember that theory or yeah. JJ: Okay, now you stayed there since ’75 and then that -- and then after that, what happened for you? 43 �JB: [01:12:00] My wife and I split up in -- at the -- in ’74. (break in audio) JB: So eventually, I moved out of the neighborhood and I moved to South Shore about a year later, maybe six months later. Seventy-five I think I moved out. Then from South Shore, I moved to this house here. JJ: Were you -- did you stay? JB: When I was in South Shore, I married my second wife. JJ: Okay. JB: My current wife, Ellen. JJ: Did you stop being active or after that or...? JB: No, I continued to participate with Progressive Labor Party. JJ: Okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) How did it...? JB: In the ‘70s, we helped to drive the Nazis out of Marquette Park, for instance. JJ: Oh, okay. The Progressive Labor Party did that? JB: Right. [01:13:00] We broke the band and they weren’t allowing people to march into Marquette Park from Englewood, for instance. So we organized a picket line in front of the Nazi headquarters in fall of -- in the spring of ’77. We still have a picket line from their headquarters. We had to physically fight them to maintain the picket line. So we broke that band. We invaded their headquarters, had a political meeting the following year, and trashed the place and drove the people out. One of our members was arrested and we supported her through her trials or through her court case. It never actually went to trial because we kept the pressure on them until finally, we had a May Day March in May Day of 1979. 44 �They were not able to mop any kind of resistance to our May Day march at the Marquette Park. The state’s attorney eventually dropped the case. He tried to reinstate it once. It got dropped once, he tried to [01:14:00] reinstate it once, and eventually, the Nazis didn’t show up to testify and he dropped the case. There was a little bit more to it than that but that’s a long story short so... JJ: Right. So now, what are you doing now, basically? JB: I retired in 1997 as a high school teacher. I’m teaching at the college level, Chicago State University. I teach part-time. Biology to non-majors. I continue my activities in the Progressive Labor Party. JJ: You’re very active. It sounds like you’re very active in the Progressive Labor Party. Are you getting higher in position now there or no? JB: It’s not -- no, we don’t really have higher positions. [01:15:00] Basically, our clubs and leaders and we’re active on the campus helping students organize around student demands. JJ: Were you involved with this Occupy Wall Street movement at all? JB: Yeah. When it came up, I would go downtown Chicago and students at Chicago State were affected by it. We helped to organize an Independent Student Union Chapter last year. That by Thanksgiving time, they were occupying an administration building around their demands. So yeah, I’m still (laughs) doing as much as I can. I’m not as energetic as I used to be. JJ: In between cutting the little piglets or...? (laughter) I wrote a -- I’m [01:16:00] (inaudible) an ad into the biology class. JB: Oh, the dissection? Yeah, we’re still doing that. 45 �JJ: You’re still doing that? JB: Yeah, I’ll be doing that this semester. Cutting open a fetal pig with the students, yeah. JJ: I don’t know. What else? Is there anything that we haven’t said? JB: That we haven’t covered? JJ: That we haven’t covered? We didn’t really get into your -- JB: Yeah, I know -- I don’t remember when Ralph moved out to California. But after Ellen, my wife and I, got married in ’77, she had been working in California. I met her when her father died; She came back to Chicago to be with her mother. Though [01:17:00] when we went back there to visit, I think the first time was on our honeymoon, we went out there. I had some idea where Ralph was living and I finally found him through the post office. So I visited him out there. A couple years later, we went back. I visited him again one more time and then we sort of lost track. I hadn’t realized he died until you told me this evening. So yeah, I’m sorry to hear that. JJ: Did you ever meet his other family? JB: His brother, [Luis?]. I knew [Quinn?]’s -- JJ: Luis was a Young Lord, too. I was saying -- JB: Oh, was Luis? I wasn’t sure -- I didn’t remember that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah. I think I met his father at the wedding. But that’s -- I’ve seen Luis more than once. JJ: Okay. You saw him more than once? [01:18:00] 46 �JB: Yeah, but just briefly. Let’s see. I knew Quinn; I knew Quinn was a baby. I remember when Quinn was born. JJ: What kind of work did his father do? JB: Ralph’s father? JJ: Yeah. JB: I can’t recall. JJ: I know they were from Lake View, too. They were -- JB: Ralph worked for the airlines. I know that. JJ: Oh yeah, he worked for the airlines. JB: He worked for American Airlines. He was still working for American Airlines when he was out in California. JJ: (inaudible) got those jobs. (inaudible) like that. [Division P?] was another one there. But his father, what about the...? JB: I don’t recall what his father did. JJ: All right. Okay. Anything else that we haven’t covered yet? JB: No. JJ: You’re living now on the south side. JB: [01:19:00] I’m living here? JJ: I mean we don’t need to hear this. JB: Oh where we are now you mean? JJ: You’re not on the north side anymore I mean. JB: Oh, no. I haven’t been on -- lived on the north side since ’75. JJ: Is this where you’re active here basically or...? 47 �JB: Yeah, yeah. JJ: In this area or...? JB: I belong to a group called Unity and Diversity -- [Unity in Diversity?] in this neighborhood. After I retired, I joined in ’98. It was a group that was organized around some of the hate crimes in this area. Even though it has a reputation of being an integrated area, it doesn’t mean that people knew how to get along. Actually, in the late ‘90s, this was the -- this 19th ward here including Beverly, Morgan Park, and Mount Greenwood, had the highest number of hate crimes of any ward in the city. [01:20:00] Ninety-seven, 98. So I got involved in that group. Since the war in the Middle East or I mean since the war in invasions of Iraq, there was a peace organization. [South Side of Peace?] was organized. In fact, I’ll be attending a meeting tomorrow night. So I’m probably involved in too many things. (laughs) Hard to keep up with everything. JJ: Anything else? Otherwise what about for Hampton? Did you follow what happened to him? Because that was not too long after Rev. Johnson. JB: Right. What was that, 1970 I think? JJ: Right. Because (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) once; it was a -- JB: I was aware of it. JJ: You were just aware of it. JB: Oh, yeah. [01:21:00] Very much aware of it. But I wasn’t in touch with any Panthers; Didn’t know any Panthers. JJ: Okay. But you knew it was like a Rainbow Coalition with the Young Lords and the Panthers and that or were you familiar with that? 48 �JB: Not too familiar with that. I knew that there was friendly feeling and we had that meeting that time in our apartment. My feeling was that the Young Lords were sort of trying to pattern themselves after what the Panthers were doing. JJ: Okay. Do you know any of the programs? JB: The only other contact I had with that is in 19-- when I met Ellen in ’76 I believe it was, she’s a retired attorney. JJ: Oh, to your wife? JB: Yes. When she came back as I mentioned, she came back to Chicago. So [01:22:00] she was not a part of any particular -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) attorney or...? JB: No. Although she participated in that trial with the -- she wasn’t an attorney in court, but they had several attorneys around that Black Panther defense. JJ: Which...? Okay, so your wife [Alan?]? JB: Right. So she helped -- JJ: What’s her last name? JB: Hirschmann. [Ellen Hirschmann?]. Yeah. So she participated in that defense. She was -- JJ: With the People’s Law Office? JB: Yeah. JJ: Okay. JB: She was assigned to go through all these photographs that the Red Squad had taken all those years to try to find -- JJ: The Red Squad? 49 �JB: Remember the police, the Red Squad? JJ: What were they? What were they -- yeah, I’m (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JB: No, right. I know you know. JJ: (laughs) JB: This group of police officers in the Chicago police department [01:23:00] that were assigned to harass radicals or infiltrate radical groups. One of the things they did to intimidate people was take a lot of photographs at rallies and marches. JJ: They actually were parked 24 hours a day in front of the church. JB: I believe that. (laughs) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: And I probably knew that at the time. JJ: The police car was there all the time. JB: Yeah, I probably knew that at the time but... JJ: So they were in charge of taking photographs and... JB: That was one of the things they did. So they were -- you would have to talk to Ellen. I don’t know what they were looking for but she was assigned to go through that were involved, those photographs that had something to do with the Panthers. And look for anything that would be useful in court. JJ: Was she to retire now or...? JB: Yeah. Her -- JJ: Or is she...? 50 �JB: [01:24:00] That wasn’t the main thing she did but that was about the time she came back to Chicago when that was going on. But she eventually got involved with representing -- she was part of the -- what was it called? Cook County Legal Assistance Foundation, something like that. And eventually ended up in private practice with attorneys who were suing the -- suing Ronald Reagan’s government for denying social security disability. And Black long benefits to people in Illinois. So actually, she had a very high winning percentage because they just denied everybody out of hand. Eventually, the courts finally told them they couldn’t do that anymore because they were just flooded with these [01:25:00] cases and they were ridiculous cases so... JJ: So she was winning. That’s good. JB: Yeah. They had no business denying them in the first place but they just were -that was their policy. Deny everybody and see -- and let you hire a lawyer to challenge it. Which a lot of people couldn’t do. Unless they could get a lawyer like in her department, they would do it on a contingency basis. (pause) Like I mentioned, the last time I talked to Ralph was probably around ’79, ’80 in California. I’ve never seen Jackie or Quinn. JJ: Quinn was his son? JB: Son. I think that [01:26:00] was his name, yeah. Since he left Chicago. Since they broke up. Or anybody else in his family. I don’t think I’ve seen any of the Young Lords. I remember [Pancho?] getting killed. JJ: Jose, Pancho, what do you remember about him? His death? 51 �JB: It was pretty horrible. I think he was beaten to death with a baseball bat or something. That’s -- JJ: Because of his skin, basically. He was dark-complected Puerto Rican, I guess. JB: I never knew the circumstances. I just remember hearing about it. JJ: Yeah. Something he was defending his brother from another -- like a white gang. JB: Oh, I didn’t realize that. JJ: Yeah. He was standing up for his brother, yeah. They called his brother names and he went back and [01:27:00] they got him, basically, so... But that’s the way he was. Pancho would not be afraid -- he’s a young guy. He wasn’t afraid to tell them back. But the significant thing about that was that we went to trials and they said justifiable homicide. Not justifiable homicide but they didn’t arrest anybody. One of the guys was a brother to a policeman so that’s why they didn’t arrest him. But we went to his trial and it was like they ignored the Puerto Rican community, basically. So that was the significance of that trial. JB: Of the Puerto Rican Four? Quatro? JJ: No, Pancho. Pancho. The Quatro Lords was ma-- right. They didn’t arrest anybody -- they didn’t arrest James Lamb and they tried to blame -- JB: Oh Lamb, maybe it was the cop’s name, yeah. JJ: They tried to blame the Quatro Lords for it [01:28:00] in the Mauel Ramos case. What I heard was that they tried to grab the off-duty policeman and were turning him into the police. Because they didn’t know he was a cop at the time. That’s what I heard. But I mean I wasn’t there; You were there. 52 �JB: Yeah. As I recall, they were just simply trying to find out who he was and keep him calm. Because he had this gun and none of us had a gun going up against him so... JJ: No, I mean after the shooting is what I’m saying. That they jumped on him or something and they -- that’s why they arrested these four people. (inaudible) Lords. JB: Oh. Oh, that could be. Things happen so fast. I remember going outside, I remember being -- trying to deal with him, trying to talk to him. I remember him firing and then I remember seeing Pancho being carried out and I ran [01:29:00] towards him. JJ: You mean Manuel, Manuel. JB: Yeah, I’m sorry. Manuel. JJ: Manuel Ramos, yeah. JB: Seeing Manuel being carried out and I ran toward him. When they threw him in - they just tossed him into the paddy wagon. JJ: Were they drunk at the party? They just tossed him into the paddy wagon. JB: Yeah, they just tossed him in the paddy wagon. No, no, there was nobody out. People were drinking. I was drinking. But I’d only had a couple. Nobody was drunk to the point where they were making bad judgement or something like that. JJ: Was it a wild party or...? JB: No, it wasn’t. I guess what drew the cop to us was the shots that were fired outside the party -- outside in the alley. We were having a party so I guess he 53 �figured it had something to do with us, right? [01:30:00] So then after I jumped in the van, I don’t know what happened after that. JJ: So there was some noise in the alley and he came to the party. It didn’t have to do with the party. JB: Right. This was a few minutes later. JJ: Okay. Oh, not right away. This was -- JB: No. We weren’t even sure, at least I wasn’t even sure, that it had -- that there was any connection. I think we sort of figured this all out later. Because at the time, things were happening really fast, you know? JJ: Uh-huh. Then he just shot into the hallway and that’s where Manuel was standing? JB: Into the doorway of the house. JJ: Into the doorway of the house. JB: Yeah, so some of us were outside. The cop with the gun was outside and other people had come. They were all crowded in the doorway looking to see what was happening. And he fired into the doorway. JJ: So all they were doing was trying to figure out what was going on. [01:31:00] There were people outside already. He actually grabbed your arm and fired. JB: Right. And fired. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) At the same time he was firing, he had one -- he had his left hand on my arm and his right hand -- I think he was right-handed -- firing the gun. JJ: At random. There was no one with a gun there. 54 �JB: Right. I’m not sure what -- how I responded then. I don’t know if I hit the ground or what happened but I can’t remember anything until my next memory is seeing them dragging Manuel out. At some point, other cops showed up. Then I don’t know exactly when that was so... JJ: But you jumped into the paddy wagon and tried to help him. JB: Yeah, they just tossed him in like he was a sack of grain. I could see he was bleeding so I jumped in. Next thing I [01:32:00] know, the doors are shut and we’re heading toward the hospital. JJ: This was like a baptism or something or a birthday? JB: It was a birthday party as I recall. JJ: For a little girl or...? JB: Yeah. Two-year-old daughter. JJ: Was somebody -- either Sal’s or Orlando’s. JB: Yeah. You can correct me if I’m -- I may be wrong on whose daughter it was but that’s how I recall it. It was a birthday party. My wife and I were still on our honeymoon. I think I was supposed to go back to work the next Monday. This was like the weekend before school started up again. We got married on spring break. JJ: So it was a birthday party. Were there kids in there, too, or...? JB: I guess so, yeah. Must’ve been. I don’t remember a lot of kids but -- JJ: You saw some kids. JB: There was -- yeah. JJ: Because it was a party for kids. 55 �JB: It was mainly adults, so I don’t know if it was an excuse to have an adult party (laughs) or what. JJ: [01:33:00] Okay, but it was mainly adults. JB: It seemed to me that it was a birthday party. JJ: But it was not wild adults. These are family. JB: No. No. It was like a family party, right. It was -- JJ: It was like a family party. JB: Yeah. Food and cake and music and everybody having a -- JJ: And this officer James Lamb. JB: The lights were on. It wasn’t dark or anything. Lights were bright and everybody was talking and having a good time so... JJ: Okay. So everybody -- the lights were on, everybody -- it was a family party. There was some noise outside and people are wondering what it is and it’s -- JB: We had heard gun shots outside. We knew gunshots had been fired. So I don’t know how much later it was that somebody came in and said, “There’s a man outside with a gun. So -- JJ: As far as you know, it could’ve been him shooting. It could’ve been shooting. As far as -- JB: So I followed other people. [01:34:00] Yeah, as far as I knew, I -- JJ: (laughs) I’m being subjective but -- JB: Yeah. I’m following other people. I saw other people go out. I think Pancho was one -- (break in audio) 56 �JJ: Right. Pancho was there, yeah. JB: I don’t recall who the others were and -- JJ: I know Sal was there. Pancho was there, Sal Delavera -- JB: I know Sal was at the party, right. JJ: The original Pete they called him -- Martinez, [Pete Martinez?]. JB: Okay, I don’t recall. JJ: The original Pete. There was one more but I don’t know if it was Ralph. I don’t know if it was another -- JB: Ralph was inside. JJ: Oh, Ralph was inside. Okay. JB: Yeah, because he was in the doorway. JJ: Okay. JB: That’s why he -- Pancho was in the doorway, Ralph was in the doorway. Pancho got shot through the eye, Ralph got shot through the jaw. JJ: Manuel got shot through the head. JB: I (covers face) -- JJ: Manuel -- sorry. JB: Manuel. I keep -- JJ: [01:35:00] Ralph got shot through the jaw? JB: Yeah. Pancho and I were outside. JJ: Okay. And then our thing was we were -- we made a -- we had several demonstrations. I mean, his funeral was large. But our main concern was that we didn’t just want the police to get away with that. That’s why it went through 57 �the courts, filled up the courts and all that. But again, they claimed justifiable homicide so -JB: Yeah. And also, I remember they tried to cause friction between the [Peace Dones?] and Young Lords. JJ: What do you remember about that? JB: I don’t know. We might’ve had more than one demonstration down at the police station but I remember -- one I remember. We were at the police station and outside the police station, rather, [01:36:00] at a demonstration. At one point, Ralph came up to some of us and said that -- was it the Cobra Stones? I think they had pink [tams?]. JJ: Cobra Stones (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JB: Cobra Stones, right, red [tams?]. So there was a bunch of them off to the side and Ralph said they worried about them. It looked like they were trying to break up our demonstration or something. But apparently, they went and talked with them and got -- and reached some kind of agreement. Or they didn’t know exactly why we were there, maybe. They went over and explained. I wasn’t one of them but I know some people went over and explained to them what it was all about. We were able to bring about some unity. JJ: This was because we were marching through the projects. We had (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) to march through the projects to get to the -- JB: Yeah. We had to get there to get to the [18th?] Street. You had to go down Division Street because 18th district was on Division Street. Division and [Park?], right. 58 �JJ: Eighteenth district police station, yeah. [01:37:00] So we had marched for almost -- I think it was like five miles or something, right? Or four miles. JB: I don’t know what it is. It was a good-size march, yeah. JJ: Right, so we marched about three or four miles or five miles to the police station but you had to go through the projects. JB: Right. If you go down Halsted to Division, then you go through the projects. JJ: Yeah, so I -- we didn’t want to disrespect the Cobra Stones because that was their neighborhood. They were looking at us bad because we were bringing these people through their neighborhood. Later on, they admitted that the gang intelligence unit had paid them money to try to disrupt that march and also McCormick Seminary. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: I probably knew that. That’s where my -- yeah. JJ: So we had the Red Squad and the gang intelligence unit that was at your -- the group. JB: Right. Now, see this is another reason why I didn’t see the Young Lords as a gang. Because gangsters would’ve [01:38:00] taken offense and things would’ve escalated, right? But Ralph is saying, “Let’s figure this out. Let’s develop some unity here.” I guess that’s how they found out by talking with them that they had been approached by the police. JJ: And he was the Deputy Minister of Education, Ralph Rivera -- JB: Yes, that’s what I remember. 59 �JJ: And so you remember that class of the Red Book so they were using the Red Book and Fred was there. Fred Hampton was there at that time. So did you get to know Fred Hampton? You got to meet him? JB: I got to meet him but we didn’t get chummy or anything. JJ: Okay. But it was more relaxed. When we were -- the Young Lords and the Panthers were together, they were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JB: Oh yeah, it was very informal. Yeah. JJ: Informal. JB: It was formal to the extent of it was a study group [01:39:00] and so we studied and we had something to study and there was a discussion. But then afterwards, it was socializing. JJ: Right. I know Fred Hampton never used marijuana. I just want to make that clear. I know that for a fact. JB: Okay, well I don’t -- JJ: That’s not saying that I didn’t use it but -- JB: Right. (laughs) JJ: But he definitely didn’t do it. I want to make that clear. JB: Yeah. JJ: But it was informal. It was relaxing and we were in a coalition with the Panthers. So we were in the Rainbow Coalition. JB: Yeah. I wasn’t involved in those things but -- JJ: No, you were not involved in it. Yeah. JB: -- but that much of the business of the Young Lords but -- 60 �JJ: But I didn’t know why we were meeting. I didn’t know that that was Ralph’s house, too. JB: Yeah, we were roommates. JJ: Yeah, see I didn’t know that. That’s why we used to use that house a lot. (laughter) While you were in school teaching. JB: Well, it was fine with me. JJ: No, that’s fine. They used my house, too, until I [01:40:00] got evicted. (laughter) Some of it was prior to the church takeover. And then after, it was (inaudible), too. Yeah. The church takeover was like one day and the next day, we were working together, right? JB: Yeah. JJ: It was just one day and then we decided, “This is not a takeover,” because Rev. Johnson was with us. You understand what he said? “We’re not going to disrespect you. This is not a takeover. Let’s just set up the programs.” JB: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah, it seemed to be a good relationship (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) between at least the minister and the Young Lords. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) He must’ve had some support from his congregation. JJ: We had some support from the congregation but a lot of the congregation didn’t want us there. JB: Yeah, I believe that. JJ: But the (inaudible) especially. (laughs) There were some (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 61 �JB: (laughter) Oh yeah, no. I can believe that. JJ: But okay. Any final thoughts? JB: [01:41:00] I’ll probably remember some things tomorrow but right now, I can’t think of anything. JJ: Okay. So that’s it? We’re going to end there or...? JB: Yeah, I’ll leave it up to you. If you have other questions, I’ll be happy to answer them. JJ: I think we covered. I mean what you’re doing now, you’re at Chicago State, you’re working with the Progressive Labor Party still. JB: Still, yeah. JJ: Okay. Did you guys work at all in the journey to (inaudible) Washington timeframe or...? JB: No, we’re not involved in electoral politics. JJ: In electoral politics? JB: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So you guys didn’t like the fact that I ran for Alderman. (laughter) Things happen, right? JB: I wasn’t -- I probably wasn’t -- JJ: You’re allowed to make mistakes. (laughs) JB: I don’t vote, but on the other hand -- JJ: Is that how you look at it? We’re allowed to make some mistakes, right? (laughter) JB: But knowing you, I would’ve probably figured you had good intentions. 62 �JJ: All right. We looked at it as a -- just an organizing vehicle. We didn’t believe [01:42:00] that through elections, we were going to make change. But we looked at it as an organizing vehicle and we did pretty well getting 39 percent of the vote so -- JB: Yeah. I don’t know that at some point, we might not do the same in the Progressive Labor Party if we see it useful as a vehicle but -- JJ: It was survival, too. They were trying to destroy the group so that was one way to keep our group in the public eye. JB: Oh, okay. Yeah. It’s -- JJ: So that was another reason that we did that. We got criticized for -- from the left, from some on the left. JB: Yeah, I’m sure. JJ: But we’re okay. We’re okay with it. I think we covered... Any -- in your life personally that you think that people should know about you and your family? JB: (pause) I’m [01:43:00] happy that my wife supports me in my political work and my children. They’re not members of Progressive Labor Party but they’re not giving me grief for being there, being a communist. So they don’t necessarily agree with everything but I’m happy to have a family that was able to survive the high school years without getting in drug -- involved in drugs or anything like that. Let’s see, seven out of eight are working. My kids and their spouses or fiancés (laughs) and stuff; That’s good. JJ: Any good things happening at Chicago State or...? 63 �JB: It’s an interesting story because when I [01:44:00] started teaching at the college level, I started teaching at [Daley City College?]. Wayne Watson was the chancellor over the City Colleges. He’s now my boss again at Chicago State. But when I was at City Colleges as a part-timer, half the classes were being taught by part-timers. We had no union organization. We were getting low or very low wages, very few benefits. The pension was all, the pension plan. So we organized a union. As a result, it was -- I didn’t keep my job very long. They found ways to ease me out. Part-timers, we -- basically, we renew our contract every semester. When we turn in our grades, we’re basically unemployed. So my contract wasn’t renewed so I got a job at Chicago State and all of a sudden, I see the same guy’s (laughs) over there, my boss. So [01:45:00] not happy about that but I’m happy to be working with my colleagues and I’m happy to be working with the students so... I still take the side of the students against the administration. (laughs) JJ: We’ll leave it there. JB: Okay. JJ: Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 64 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5713db658bccb91e30d3731bd4571746.mp4 5159a4353ee68f713e431f1aeef27f77 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry John Boelter vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Boelter_John Title A name given to the resource John Boelter video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boelter, John Description An account of the resource John Boelter was one of the Chicago Teachers Union members on strike in September 1968 at Waller High School, known today by its new name, Lincoln Park High. Today he is a Professor of Biology at Chicago State University. In 1968, a prominent Young Lord, Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera returned from Puerto Rico and subleased a room from Dr. Boelter. Mr. Rivera, who grew up in Lakeview, wanted to be closer to the Young Lords who were then hanging out in front of the Armitage Avenue United Methodist Church which later to become the People’s Church, on the corner of Dayton Street and Armitage Avenue. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Rivera had been hanging out with M.P.I. (Movimiento Pro Independencia) and F.U.P.I. (Federacion Universitaria Pro Independencia) their student auxiliary, at University of Puerto Rico campus in Rio Piedras. He was going through a political transformation. Upon arriving in Chicago, Mr. Rivera soon discovered that his Young Lords colleagues were also going through a transformation. They had been reorganized once again by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the members were struggling with each other on whether to remain apolitical as just a gang or to become a human rights movement. Mr. Rivera joined in fully to help Mr. Jiménez, and they together designed the original Young Lords button that read, “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón ( I have Puerto Rico in my heart) with a green map of Puerto Rico in the center, and a brown arm and fist holding a rifle. The initials YLO, which stood for “Young Lords Organization,” was at the bottom. They had added organization to their name, to make it clear that they were now involved in a class struggle, fighting for Latinos, the poor, and for Puerto Rican self-determination. Mr. Rivera became one of the Young Lords’ first P.E. (political education) class teachers, as these sessions were being held in the different homes of members including. LP Records of speeches by Malcom X, Fidel Castro, Don Pedro Albizu Campos, Mao Tse Tung’s Little Red Book, the National Question, Panther films, and Saul Alinsky strategies were being used as tools for study. It was in Mr. Boelter’s and Mr. Rivera’s house where Chicago Black Panther Party Chairman Fred Hampton and the Panthers first arrived on Dayton and Armitage. They were led from the corner to the house to meet Dr. Boelter, Mr. Rivera, Mr. Jiménez, and the Young Lords. The Black Panthers broke bread and drank Wild Irish Rose (Fred Hampton did not drink or use drugs) on ice, smoked some weed, and joked a little, cementing a relationship that has lasted to this day. On a different day within a few weeks at the same location, it was informally agreed to join together with the Young Patriots. BPP Field Marshall Bob Lee was working with them. The three groups, who were already major players within their own communities, became the original members of the alliance known as the Rainbow Coalition. This was followed by several press conferences announcing the Rainbow Coalition, including one where Congressman Bobby Rush, appears in a photo with the Young Lords, Young Patriots and other Black Panthers but where Mr. Jiménez and Mr. Hampton were unable to be present. The Rainbow Coalition was strongly woven together to the credit of the organizations that took part in it. They all were committed and followed the same vanguard ideology of the BPP. But it is significant to note that the Rainbow Coalition was more symbolic than a structured organization. It was the mass way for all the grassroots organizations to find common ground and to join together for support of each other’s struggles, and it soon spread to other movements and groups like Rising Up Angry, the Intercommunal Survival Committees, Red Guard, Brown Berets, S.D.S. and many other groups in many cities. After the Young Lords went underground and the Puerto Rican and low income residents of Lincoln Park were completely removed by Mayor Richard J. Daley and his patronage machine, Dr. Boelter moved south to Morgan Park. Dr. Boelter also joined the Progressive Labor Party. The Progressive Labor Party had left the Communist Party years before, because their belief was that “they want to skip the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and go right into utopia.” They are against racism and respect workers, but do not want to cling on to leaders or unions, preferring to organize the masses. They have been accused of “catering more to the petty bourgeoisie and the aristocracy of labor.” Then they rejected the Black Panthers and Young Lords use of Nationalism as an important step. They also had become part of S.D.S. and by 1969 were their largest faction. Dr. Boelter today is still a member. These political discussions on all sides were part of the Lincoln Park era in the late 60s and 70s. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec6c3128b89428b5b703100a8837a797.pdf 98b4b4fd7d2525fbc9f903f0fcb3a453 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Billy “Che” Brooks Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/28/2012 Biography and Description Billy “Che” Brooks is Deputy Minister of Education of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP) and Director of YouthLAB@1521 through the Better Boys Foundation. In 1969, Mr. Brooks was very close to Chairman Fred Hampton who was the main spokesman of the Black Panther Party in Illinois. As one of the primary leaders of the BPP, Mr. Brooks was under constant, daily harassment by the Chicago Red Squad and Gang Intelligence Unit. He also worked closely with the Young Lords through the Rainbow Coalition.Mr. Brooks recalls one time when Mr. Hampton asked Mr. José ”Cha-Cha” Jiménez to sneak Mr. Brooks out of a rally at Grant Park, where the police wanted to arrest him on a simple, disorderly conduct warrant. In the middle of the Michigan Avenue Bridge, by Oak Street, the police blocked the automobile in which they were driving, pointed their funs in the faces of those in the car, and arrested Mr. Brooks. The Young Lords drove to the police station and posted his bond. They then drove Mr. Brooks back to the BPP headquarters and told Chairman Hampton, “This one is on us.” Mr. Brooks began working with the Better Boys Foundation in 1978 as the Coordinator of Community Involvement. He continued this work until 1994 and then returned to the agency in 2008. In the interim, Mr. Books engaged in a whole variety of community and public interest work including positions with the Westside Association for Community Action, Habilitative Systems, Inc. and the Harvard School of Public Health. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible). BILLY BROOKS: My name is Billy Lamar Brooks, Sr., a.k.a Che. I was born in Forest, Mississippi on July 18th, 1948. My family migrated to the State of Illinois, to the best of my recollection when I was three years old. I pretty much have lived on the West side of Chicago my entire adult life. I [00:01:00] spent most of my time in the North Lawndale community in an area called K-Town which is called K-Town because most of the streets start with a K, you know, Komensky, Karlov, Kedvale, Keeler, Kolin, Kildare, Kostner, then we go Tripp right in the middle there. And I went to Bryant School, which is located on 13th and Kedvale. From there, I went to Mason School, which is on 18th and Keeler. I graduated from Mason School in June of 1963, attended John Marshall High School where I ran track [00:02:00] for four years and participated in African American History Club, but it was called Negro History Club, taught by a guy by the name of George Crockett. I graduated from Marshall High School in June of 1967. This is where it get interesting, I went to Wilson Junior College, which at that time was located on 70th and Stewart, ran track there also, cross country. And got engaged in [00:03:00] a real African American club, you know, which opened my eyes up to the contradictions that existed in terms of poor people in this here country. I became politically conscious, politically aware of this government just in terms of how it treated its poor citizens. It was never my intention to be quote unquote, a “subversive, radical” or a member of the Black Panther Party. [00:04:00] I wanted to be a lawyer, I wanted to be a doctor and a 1 �lot of that was just based on the fact that I wanted to be a part of the American dream, which I was told was available to me. One thing led to another, I met some guys from the South Side of Chicago that I bonded to and we would meet and talk and meet and talk and I got tired of meeting and talking. I was familiar with what was going on in Oakland in October of 1966, you know, but it was not something that [00:05:00] (pause) I really wanted to be a part of, but I met this dude named Bobby Lee Rush, who’s a sitting congressman now in D.C., he represents some legislative district congressionally on the South Side. And we began to collaborate and organize around the issues of police brutality, which was something that I had witnessed as a very young person pretty much all my life. And one thing led to another just in terms of my consciousness and [00:06:00] my willingness to actually want to become part of a broader more focused struggle. Didn’t really know what I was getting into, but I had a burning desire to resist the temptation of not being a part of probably one of the most progressive and revolutionary movements in the history of this country when it comes down to dealing with the contradictions with capitalism and the overt oppression of [00:07:00] poor minority communities, you know. So, I actually went into the concept of being a member of the Black Panther Party not as a Black nationalist, not from within an Afrocentric perspective, but with the understanding that if we were actually going to have an impact on heightened contractions and changing some rudimentary social policies in this here country then we have to work with some coalition politics which was really part of the ideology and philosophy of the Black Panther Party, starting with the original 2 �Rainbow Coalition [00:08:00] with the Peace and Freedom Party out in San Francisco, Oakland, Bay Area when Eldridge Cleaver ran for president, you know, So, it became part and parcel of our philosophy and our ideology here in the State of Illinois where we were actually upon the leadership of our deputy chairman Fred Hampton who really understood more so than any of us at that time the importance of coalition politics. He took the lead in establishing [00:09:00] relationships throughout the city of Chicago. Even at one time and point tried to hook up with the Black P. Stone Nation, which is what they were called at that time and that didn’t work out too well. Worked a little with David... JJ: Why didn’t it work out too well? BB: Actually, at that time, there were a lot of dollars floating around out here from the so called Model Cities Program and a lot of that money were going to gangs, you know, like the Vice Lords, like the Black P. Stone Nation and they felt that we were a threat to them. You know, our focus was [00:10:00] on organizing poor and oppressed people in regards of where they were or what they were doing. And basically, it didn’t work out because they saw us as a threat to them. A lot of it had to do with... JJ: Threat in terms of taking your funds from the Model Cities? BB: Well, more or less. I would say to the extent of us impacting their ability to get those funds, you know, because we were talking about changing the economic infrastructure of our community, we were talking about building a political and economic base that actually we would control as opposed to [00:11:00] working with governmental handouts that placed all kind of constrictions and, (pause) you 3 �know, restrictions and unnecessary demands, was really basically what governed what we did. At that time the big thing was opening up businesses in the community and we weren’t into that at all. We were into heightening contradictions, you know, as we did with our breakfast program, as we did... JJ: Yeah, heightening contradictions meaning what? BB: It actually means that you’re making people aware. Okay, first of all, we look at oppression, we see oppression as violence, okay. [00:12:00] And the major contradiction that we looked at was children were going to school hungry, you know, and it’s kind of difficult to learn when you’re hungry. So, we saw that as a major contradiction. So, our intent was to heighten the people’s awareness of that. JJ: Major contradiction because they were hungry in a prosperous country? BB: Exactly, exactly. In a country that was one of the wealthiest countries in the world. All of our survival programs were geared toward heightening contradictions, you know, from the medical center to the free prison program. But the cream of the crop was... JJ: The Free Prison Program, how was that heightening contradictions? BB: Well, we [00:13:00] a lot of people that were incarcerated in Southern Illinois, people were not able to visit their relatives. And if you are incarcerated and you don’t have anyone coming to visit you, pretty much anything can go down, okay, so we created the Free Prison Bussing Program that took actual community residents, free of charge to visit their loved ones. Which really pissed off the penal institutions, you know, because then they started to have to change the 4 �way they treated our incarcerated family members. [00:14:00] Then people basically started going on their own to visit their relatives. All our programs were based on survival. Later on, Huey P. Newton conceptualized a different approach to the infrastructure of the Black Panther Party and started talking about revolutionary and communalism which connects all poor and oppressed communities around the world that are struggling with the same social, economic and political concerns. But they were all part and parcel of our original 10-point platform [00:15:00] and program. The most salient one was point number 10 where we talked about, we want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace. And as our major political objective, a United Nation supervised plebiscite which is a vote to determine the destiny of our poor and oppressed people and communities, you know, we wanted a vote. And we still would like to see that happen now in 2012 because the conditions haven’t changed, they haven’t changed here, they haven’t changed in the so-called Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. We’re still being exploited to the max in terms of [00:16:00] economic system, you know. JJ: Okay, so this was about the people determining their own destiny and bringing it to a vote you’re saying, (inaudible)? BB: Yeah, you know, bringing a vote, it would be a plebiscite. The whole concept behind United Nations is that they’re a world body and that each member of the United Nation represent nations around the world. And you well know, most of the oppressed third world nations and countries are being exploited for economic [00:17:00] reasons. 5 �JJ: So, you came when you were around three years old to the West Side of Chicago. BB: Yes. JJ: Okay. And you lived in K-Town (inaudible). BB: Mm-hmm. JJ: And then later on of course, you joined different groups, but you joined the Black Panther Party. BB: I only joined one group. JJ: Prior to that? BB: You know, I joined the Black Panther Party in October, 1968. Prior to that, I was not affiliated with... JJ: Any other group. BB: No. JJ: Okay. So, how did you get from Mississippi to Chicago thinking about the Black Panther Party? In between there with growing -- BB: Well, I came from... JJ: -- up on the West Side, what was that like (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: Well, [00:18:00] from Mississippi, I was three years old, I have very little memory of that. Some of my more salient thoughts are black and white police cars. We used to stay on 18th and Hastings and I had a Uncle Joe, a big truck driver, he used to drink a lot, he was very strong and he’d get into it with the police a lot. JJ: In like disorderly or something like that? BB: Yeah, no, I used to actually watch him beat the shit outta the police. 6 �JJ: Oh, he (inaudible). BB: Yeah. You know what I’m sayin’? I mean, eventually they would get the best of him, you know, but those are some of my early memories and I used to wonder why the police were so brutal. [00:19:00] JJ: Were there a lot of relatives here, did you have a lot of relatives? BB: Oh yeah, pretty much... JJ: I mean, did they come at the same time? BB: We all left -- as far as Mississippi, my uncle -- I had an uncle who lived in Gary, Indiana, he’s the oldest of my mother’s siblings. He came first, okay, and he worked at the steel mill. Then I had my Uncle Joe, then I had relatives in Joliet, Illinois. But I would say by the year of -- I was born in 48, so by the time I was six, seven years old, we had a real close-knit clan [00:20:00] here in Chicago area, which at that time included... JJ: On the West Side? BB: Yeah, but it also included -- JJ: Joliet and -- BB: -- Joliet, it included Gary, Indiana ’cause just about every weekend, we’d pile up in the old Buick and we’d be going to Joliet or we’d be going to Gary. Yeah, a lot of family here. JJ: So, you grew up with a family, cousins and all that. And what were they into, what were your cousins [and them into?], what the – I’m getting more personal. BB: I was the black sheep, okay? My mother pretty much was the only one who supported my [00:21:00] activities in the Black Panther Party. 7 �JJ: You’re talking about later, when you were an outcast for being a Panther. BB: No, I’m just talking about when I joined the party. JJ: But I’m talking about growing up. BB: What do you mean? JJ: You said you were the black sheep growing up. BB: No, no, not growing up. My stepfather was a Baptist minister, and I grew up in a church. I was a junior deacon, I taught Sunday school up until my senior year of high school, which was 1967. No, I fit quite well within the family structure up until like ’67, which was my first year of college, the first day of college, which was like September... JJ: What college was this? BB: Wilson Junior College. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BB: I remember participating in a 10 a.m. demonstration up here on Pulaski and [00:22:00] and Roosevelt. At that time, Richard Elrod was the city’s corporation counsel, he was one of Daley’s number one (audio cuts out) he became sheriff, Richard Elrod. And that’s where I met [Dax Crawford?], and I met Doug Andrews, you know, from the West Side Organization, WSO. And that was my very first arrest. JJ: Oh, you got arrested in that [thing?]? BB: Yeah, well, you know, at that time, they had what they called over here, Contract Buyers League, you had a lot of slum landlords and this was on the heels of what 8 �Dr. King was doing who lived a couple of blocks back from where we are now, [00:23:00] three blocks over, so he was part of that. JJ: Dr. King? BB: Yeah. JJ: Lived here, you mean in Chicago? BB: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know. BB: Yeah, they’ve got a little apartment complex right over there on 16th and Hamlin in his honor, Dr. King Apartments, yeah. JJ: Okay. BB: Yeah, you know, this is where he -- him and Bob Lucas, they organized and... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Bob Lucas. BB: Yeah, Dr. King stayed right over there on 15th and Hamlin, you know, that’s just like three blocks from where we are now. So, he had a lot of influence on activism in this particular neighborhood. And even though I got arrested and I was part of it, I still didn’t proactively engage myself as an organizer, but it was something that spoke out in my mind and I think that was the first time -- ’cause they didn’t [00:24:00] handcuff us, they just loaded us in the paddy wagon. And I remember getting in the paddy wagon and holding up my fist and saying, “Black power.” I didn’t know what the fuck Black power meant at that time, but there was just some rage. Because there were a lot of older seniors who were -- it was a 10 a.m. demonstration, they’re just sitting there protesting, they weren’t bothering nobody. I didn’t even have to go in, I coulda just got my ass on a bus, 9 �took the train and went on to school. But I said, “No,” because they had ’em surrounded, and they had their little helmets and shit on and had their little billy clubs. And I said, “They ain’t gonna beat these old people up,” you know what I’m saying, “I ain’t gonna let that happen.” So, they let all the old people (laughs) go and took our ass to jail. [00:25:00] JJ: Is it just upbringing or something, you were looking for the old people or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: Well, man, you know, you grow up -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: -- you grow up with respect for your elders and you wanna protect them and that was a lot of what that was from my point. I had a lot of elders in the church, the mothers, you know, they had the Mothers’ Board, and then they had all the old cats on the Deacon Board. And it was just something Cha-Cha that you learned to do. JJ: Because these were people from the church that were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, not necessarily from the church, but they were people from the community who reminded me of people. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BB: They were people fighting for their rights [00:26:00] against the slum landlords, they weren’t fixing anything, they was charging people absorbent amount of dollars to live in these fuckin’ rat holes, and people just got tired and they started protesting. 10 �JJ: And this was on the West Side only or... BB: Well, I think it was citywide. JJ: It was citywide? BB: They was doin’ the same thing in Inglewood, they was doin’ the same thing in the Kenwood Oakland community, that’s where the Woodlawn Organization -- now, this was around the time when the University of Chicago was expanding. JJ: But they were displacing people when they were expanding. BB: Yes. JJ: So, [00:27:00) it was a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, it was called urban renewal. JJ: Okay. At that time, yeah. BB: And it was citywide. The same thing that happened here, happened up north. JJ: Exactly. In Uptown, Lincoln Park? BB: Yeah. JJ: In Uptown more, they were dealing with slum landlords more, where Lincoln Park was more displacement. BB: Urban removal. JJ: Urban removal, yeah. BB: Yeah, you know what I’m sayin’? Because the land was prime, you know, and the people with the dollars, the people with the money wanted to come back. You know, at one point, they all fled outta the city. [00:28:00] JJ: When was that, I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 11 �BB: Well, you know, late ’50s, pretty much all of the ’60s. When they started building the University of Illinois, Circle Campus down there on Roosevelt and Halsted. Now, you know we used to go down there and buy (inaudible) and, you know. JJ: On Maxwell Street there. BB: Yeah. You know, you’re being politically correct, but then we called it Jewtown in the heyday, didn’t have no problem saying, you know, Jewtown (inaudible) and they weren’t Maxwell Street Polish, they were Jewtown Polish and they had this concept of bartering [00:29:00] that they call it, they called it jewing. They’ll have a product that they paid five dollars for, they wanna sell it to you for ten. So, you sit there and talk back and forth to ’em, then you get it down to five dollars, they’re not losing no money. You know what I’m sayin’? They’re not losing nothing, they just -- if you had a strong game, you know, you can get ’em down to 4.50, but the majority of people, they’ll pay the top price. Yeah. JJ: You had them down to 4.50. BB: Actually, I’d go down there and steal that shit. (laughter) Go down and steal that shit, man. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Okay, so we had Maxwell Street or Jewtown as it was called by everybody at that time, that you said I was trying to be politically correct. But [00:30:00] there were a lot of Jewish vendors, I mean, so they didn’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, it was all Jewish, you know. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: It was all Jewish. Now you had your -- 12 �JJ: They didn’t mind it at that time. BB: Well, no, you know, you had your street, you know, vendors, you had your blues singers. JJ: (inaudible) and everything on the street. BB: Yeah. JJ: I remember (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Yeah, we had Smoky Joe right there, that’s where everybody used to go get their (inaudible), you know, big ole hats and Stacy Adams shoes, you know, understand, that’s what we wearing back in high school. JJ: So, that kind of -- in that area, people were displaced from that area later, or is that what you’re -- BB: Pretty much. JJ: -- what we’re saying? BB: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, you see the spread that they have down there now from Halsted coming back west, going all the way down [00:31:00] to Harrison, you know what I’m saying? (inaudible) even went all the way back to 18th Street. JJ: Okay, so these things related to housing, to police brutality and then you said you joined the Panthers in October of ’68. BB: Mm-hmm. JJ: So, I mean, what happened, what was your position in the Panthers at that time? BB: I was a Deputy Minister of Education, structure wise, Bobby Rush was the Deputy Minister of Defense, which patterned after central committee, Huey P. Newton being the Minister of Defense, that meant Rush was the leader of the 13 �party [00:32:00] here. And then Fred Hampton was the Deputy Chairman which pretty much meant that he was the spokesman and that he understood the ideology and the philosophy, and he was able to speak on it, with some shit Rush could never do. And then up under me, there was Rufus Chaka Walls, he was the Deputy Minister of Information. Later we had Ronald Doc Satchel as the Deputy Minister of Health. Ann Campbell. (laughs) JJ: And then Ann Campbell, what was her position? BB: She was the like the Communications Secretary. JJ: Communications Secretary. BB: Yeah. We had a deputy minister of labor [00:33:00] initially, which his name was Ron Carter. No, no, not [Ron Carter?], [Don Patterson?]. JJ: Don Patterson. BB: Yeah, Ron Patterson. JJ: Yvonne King [with them, was it?]? BB: Yvonne King actually was Bill’s secretary. JJ: Bill’s secretary. BB: Along with Jewel Cook. JJ: Jewel Cook (inaudible). BB: Yeah. JJ: Bob Lee. BB: Bob Lee was Field Secretary. And what the field secretaries did was go out and organize certain parts of the city. As you know, Bob Lee had North Side and that’s how he got going, you know, from Northeastern to basically Uptown. He 14 �was real instrumental in organizing the Young Patriots and he probably was the only one that good do it ’cause, I mean, (inaudible). [00:34:00] (laughs) You know how we rolled, right, you was there. But everybody had a specific role and responsibility within the infrastructure of our Black Panther Party. Now, I have to emphasize, our Black Panther Party. JJ: So, I see that there was some people that were not -- in terms of the Rainbow Coalition in the beginning, people were not accepting it? BB: Well, no, I... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) understood. BB: I won’t say there was no acceptance, it was just like the whole concept was coalition politics. JJ: But there wasn’t hesitation. BB: No, no, I mean, this was something that was mandated, this was part of our charge. We just had to find the right person to do it. You know what I’m sayin’? You couldn’t send me up there. JJ: (laughs) BB: You know, [00:35:00] you know. But we supported the work of Bob Lee because the whole intent... JJ: Chicago was a segregated city, I mean for a while (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Oh, still is, still is. JJ: So, the West Side and the North Side were segregated (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 15 �BB: Right, right, South Side, West Side, North Side. JJ: So, you were growing up on the West Side (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Mm-hmm. See, my job over here, we opened up... JJ: I mean, did that affect the coalition building or -- BB: No, no. JJ: -- segregation is (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: No, I mean, not really. Our biggest dilemma came with Students for a Democratic Society, RAM One, RAM Two, Bernadine, Jeff Jones, Mark Rudd, [Brian Dean?] and Bill Ayers. When they opened up their office over there on Ashland and Madison, we just [00:36:00] had problems with that because the whole intent was for them to go back to their respective communities to combat racism. JJ: And Ashland and Madison, what type of community was it? BB: It was a Black community. JJ: So, they were in the middle of a Black community. BB: Yeah. JJ: And most of them were White (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: All of them were White. JJ: All of them were White. BB: Yeah. JJ: So, you had a problem with that. BB: Well, yeah. I mean, the thing was is that y’all go in y’all community and organize, and educate the racists in your neighborhoods to understand and support what 16 �you guys are doing to bring about social change. And they never quite got that. We used to call them Mother Country Radicals as you very [00:37:00] well know. We never had a problem with Mike James, you know, Mike and I are still good friends, I just don’t get up to the Heartland Café ’cause it’s so damn far, you know, and then... JJ: And the reason for not everyone following Mike James... BB: Because Mike James was cool, Mike James was a greaser. JJ: He was organizing, a greaser. BB: Yeah, he was doing his -- he was, you know. JJ: He was doing his job -- BB: Yeah. JJ: -- organizing the greaser (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) in the White community. BB: Right, right. JJ: And the Young Patriots were doing the same thing in Uptown (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Exactly, exactly. JJ: Okay. BB: We never saw SDS as part of the Rainbow Coalition, you know what I’m sayin’? JJ: At that time (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: It never did. It never did. All right? JJ: I don’t wanna put words in... BB: No, no, we never did -- 17 �JJ: You never (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: -- particularly after October, [00:38:00] November in ’69 when they decided to break off and become the Weathermen. JJ: Okay. BB: You know what I’m sayin’? And they decided that they were going to go around and start blowing shit up, you know, they wanted to do some armed revolution. And we said no. They aligned themselves with Eldridge Cleaver and DLA and it hurt. Basically, what it was that we were trying to deal with our survival programs, we knew very well that we’re not ready for no armed struggle, we didn’t [00:39:00] have the weaponry and probably never will happen. The idea was to educate people, the idea was to heighten the contradictions and to use what we were doing as vanguard party to put the [masses of the?] people in a situation where they would see a need for change and make those necessary changes through a concept called protracted struggle. I have not given up, you know, it’s a process, it’s an ongoing process, you know what I’m sayin’, but you constantly have to organize, you constantly have to educate. And see that’s one of the things people don’t wanna talk about now in terms of what our intent was, [00:40:00] what our purpose was. JJ: So now, when you’re speaking, you’re not speaking individually, you’re saying that the party in Illinois was feeling the same thing you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, actually, let me give you an example of something. JJ: I remember Fred Hampton also (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 18 �BB: I know you do. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: (laughs) I know you do. But see the thing of it is that we did what we called party lines. JJ: I think some of them came later on when they started organizing, but at that moment (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, he was gone basically from April of ’69 to August ice cream truck shit, you know, he was in the joint. Then when he got out in August, he was gone... JJ: Ice cream truck meaning? BB: He allegedly stole... JJ: That’s where they accused [00:41:00] him (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Yeah. And he was out on appeal, and he was fighting it. JJ: He had taken some ice cream and then supposedly have given it to the -- BB: Right, right. JJ: -- kids in the neighborhood. BB: Right, right. And then from August going forward, four months later he was dead, assassinated, December the 4th. And between August, you know what I mean, we had like three police hit someone in our office, we had one in July, we had one in August and we had one in October, which was one I was in there on. And then later on in November there was a situation where Spurgeon Jake Winters had a confrontation with some police on the South Side, Gilhooly and Rappaport, [00:42:00] those were their names and they killed him, but he killed a couple of 19 �them. Then they intensified their efforts to just totally destroy -- and what people sometimes don’t recognize is that when that incident happened Spurgeon really wasn’t in the party. JJ: What incident, I mean, (inaudible) clear on -- the incident that (inaudible) Spurgeon -- what was the incident? BB: They had a shootout with the police. JJ: Okay, but I mean what was the basis, what was the police (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: It wasn’t -- I don’t know. JJ: Stop and frisk? BB: I don’t know, I wasn’t there. I just know the end result. JJ: And you said there were three hits by the police, meaning that they came and raided the office three times. BB: Mm-hmm. [00:43:00] JJ: And the Panthers defended the office each time (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). I mean that’s what you’re saying or... BB: What I said was they hit our office three times, arrested us and beat the shit out of us on each occasion. I don’t know if you wanna call that defending, you know, I remember when they was beating the shit outta me, I didn’t feel like I was defending shit. You know what I’m sayin’ was some brutal shit they put down, you know what I’m sayin’? We were victims. JJ: Okay. 20 �BB: None of them were hurt, you know, because that’s not what we were about, we were about propagandizing, [00:44:00] we were about educating, we were about putting together programs. And they knew it, they had enough provocateur agents and informants in the Black Panther Party to know that we really wasn’t... JJ: You said provocateur agents, what was their role (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: They would create situations to (audio cuts out) things that would allow the police to -- William O’Neal for instance was an excellent example of a provocateur agent. He was placed there by the FBI and the Gang Intelligence Unit. And he was called out on a number of times as being [00:45:00] a provocateur. JJ: I mean, what did you do? I know, I saw one time a homemade electric chair that he had created to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: O’Neal was on the defense cadre, okay, security detail, you know, which meant that he was under the leadership of Bobby Rush. Each deputy minister had a cadre, you know, I mean we had structure. And on a number of occasions O’Neal was called to the carpet by Rush, Bobby Rush, the congressman, the preacher, the minister defended him and vouched for him. This is record stuff I’m talking, I don’t have a problem saying this. I don’t know if it was out of his naivete, [00:46:00] you know, I would not sit here and say that Bobby Rush was an agent for the government, but I will say that he had a security clearance as a member of the United States Military, which was hard at that point in time for a black man to get. Now, I can say that he left the United States Army and went to SNCC and left SNCC and came to the Black Panther Party. I can say that we 21 �never had a good relationship to this day. Reading in the paper today that he was in D.C. yesterday with a hoody on in support of Trayvon [00:47:00] Martin. With all the other kinda work, the Black Congressional Caucus can be about right now just in terms of enacting legislation and processes to impact poor people particularly in his district, that was a coward act to me. Enough of Bobby Rush. Nothing I’ve never said before. JJ: Okay, so you have not seen that (inaudible) within (inaudible) record is. BB: Oh, of course not. Of course not. When he ran for alderman, he ran on the platform of the party initially. When he first ran, [00:48:00] you know, he had a lot of comrade brothers and sisters out there working the precincts for him. Then once he got elected, he kinda like turned his back and he made this statement that people who support him can take care of themselves, which was like, okay. We had talked to him about sponsoring legislation in the City Council that will call for decentralization of the police which was one of our points in the 10-point platform. “If you can’t do nothing else Bobby, you know, just putt it out there.” He was in the position to do it. Harold wouldn’t sign off on it, Harold Washington. [00:49:00] But Harold couldn’t introduce the legislation, only an alderman can do that. And that was his first to me... JJ: What about like after Fred was killed, there was a raid on his house too, wasn’t there? BB: Well, interesting thing about that. (pause) They said it was police who (inaudible) stand over there in the Hilliard Homes on State Street, but he didn’t actually [live there?]. The irony is that he showed up at Breadbasket that same mornin’ with 22 �body guards from the African American Patrolmen [00:50:00] Association, hanging with Jesse who if you remember, we didn’t even mess with Jesse, you know. So, that’s all I gotta say about that. He wasn’t with no Panthers that next day, he was with the police. JJ: Let’s leave it there, I don’t wanna (inaudible). BB: No, honestly, I mean, you know, I’m just answering your questions. JJ: (inaudible). BB: If you get a chance to interview him, ask him about that, go ahead. JJ: No, no, no. I mean, he said, it’s understood that there was division within the... BB: Not divisions. JJ: Not division, but (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Contradictions. JJ: Contradictions, contradictions. BB: You know, contradictions. JJ: But you don’t see him as an enemy, I mean, it was just a contradiction (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: You know, [00:51:00] you got two words you’re playing with here. JJ: Okay, all right. BB: Okay, contradiction and contrary. JJ: Okay. BB: Okay? A lot of what he did was contrary to the principles of the Black Panter Party, okay? And he very well knew it. The contradiction part of it is that not being truthful, being a liar and just being [involved?] and not practicing what you 23 �should be doing, [00:52:00] so you contradict yourself with contrary behavior. Because if you apply to a marriage and me and you both know, I’ve been married four times, you know what I’m saying, because within that marriage there were contradictions, there was some contrary shit, so you could process it or not. (inaudible). JJ: Okay. I got you. (inaudible). So, tell me, before -- now this is at the end of -- not at the end, but it was a problematic situation within the party at that time. What I mean, Fred Hampton was murdered, killed, it affected the movement. At first the movement was strong [00:53:00], and then later on it did hurt. But before that, when Fred was alive, and the Panthers were -- can you kind of describe what was some of the work of the Panthers at that time? BB: Well, you know... JJ: (inaudible) work that took place. BB: From October... JJ: For people that don’t remember those times. BB: Well, from October to April, you know, our focus was on political education, organizing infrastructure. JJ: Were you public, I mean, were you having press conferences at that time, or no? BB: Of course. JJ: Did you have like an (inaudible) a period for training before you came out? BB: No, we just went right into it in October and started having political education classes, started organizing for our breakfast [00:54:00] program, we started selling our newspapers, we started soliciting people like Dr. [Cass?] and [Eric?] -- 24 �Quentin Young to be part of our medical center. We opened up our first breakfast program here in April of ’69. So, our whole time period from like October to April of ’69 was organizing, you know, selling newspapers, propagandizing. JJ: How did you get the cadre (inaudible)? BB: Well... JJ: It doesn’t happen like that overnight, I mean, you have to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: When I say October to April, that’s not overnight? JJ: Well, that is [00:55:00] overnight, but... BB: No, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, it’s not. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Uh-uh, it’s not overnight. JJ: Well, no, it was a few months. BB: You know what I’m sayin’? I mean, you have to realize something man, Fred Hampton wasn’t even an outside the wall of Black Panther for a year. We started in October of ’68, he went to the penitentiary in April of ’69, he got out in August of ’69, he was assassinated in December of ’69. So, when I say organize, when I say educate, when I say propagandize, you know, we hit just about every college, university in Chicago, we hit all the high schools. [00:56:00] We traveled to Northern and Southern, we hit Champaign, recruiting, we recruited college students. That’s how we got Doc, Doc was at Circle Campus. Chuckles was at Circle Campus. So, the critical piece was political education, so the 25 �people would understand the ideology and the philosophy and be able to articulate what our programs were and at the same time be able to implement ’em, you know. So, from October to April, you know, we were able to establish our breakfast program, we were able to establish donations with Quaker Oats, Joe Louis Milk, Parker House Sausage. We didn’t have no money. [00:57:00] So, we were able to do that. Then we started focusing on a medical center, organizing that, getting nurses, getting doctors, getting the community support. We were in the street, you know what I’m sayin’, we were on these university campuses, we was on these college campuses, we were on these junior college campuses, not so much as churches. That’s what I remember. We first got tight in Lincoln Park if you remember. And that was like a big rally out [00:59:00] there. At that time, I was drinking Bali Hai, I had a Bali Hai, you know, and then we had... JJ: You’re talking about Lincoln Park when Bobby Seale was there or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: No, no. When we got humbugging out there. JJ: In Lincoln Park. BB: Yeah. JJ: In the Lincoln Park neighborhood or the park itself? BB: Park. JJ: The park. Humbugging, I wasn’t there that day, I heard about it. BB: Yeah, but I’m just saying that’s when we really -- JJ: Humbugging meaning (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 26 �BB: Fight, fight, fight. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Chaka was speaking and at that time they had, I think they called them self [Cloverstone?]. JJ: (inaudible). BB: And they was disruptive and disrespectful and they didn’t like the concept of a coalition, of a[00:59:00] you know. And we grew from there. Ain’t no point in talking about our other escapades Cha-Cha, but, you know, you get the drift of what struggling is, what community organizing is and how we did what we did. There’s so much more than I can talk about. JJ: Okay, so the programs were a means of getting the community also involved, no, or what? They did the promotions for the party and the -- even for us it (inaudible) in terms of the Young Lords, in terms of getting people involved. BB: That’s how you do it. [01:00:00] JJ: But you’re saying that wasn’t a big thing, the... BB: That’s how we survived. JJ: Okay, (inaudible). BB: I mean, every time the police would attack our office, the community would come out, and, yeah. JJ: Did they ever come out because of the work of the programs that they were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: Well, they knew we were providing them with a service that they otherwise would not have had. They did not like the idea that we were being harassed by police. 27 �We got in a lot of trouble in some ways because there were a lot of people wearing [01:01:00] berets, you know, field jackets who really weren’t party members and honestly did some shit that we got blamed for, but it is what it is, you know. We could not have survived after December the 4th without community support. After what they did to Fred man, even skeptical people, you know what I’m sayin’, even staunch Christians got mad because they knew that was wrong. You know what I’m sayin’, they knew that was wrong. They knew it was incorrect. And [01:02:00] I wouldn’t be here today if I had not gotten the support of people who believed in the work we did, trust me, and the work that we’re going to continue to do. And you know how difficult it is, you know what we went through, and you know we’re gonna continue to go through, it’s a protracted struggle. And one of the more difficult things I find is that -- I’ve got some comrades doing this Illinois history project on the Black Panther Party. When we initially started, I told them, I said, “How the fuck do write history when you’re fuckin’ making history?” You know what I’m sayin’? Because ain’t gonna be no conclusion, that shit’s [01:03:00] constantly, constantly changing unless you’re doing a documentary like what you’re doing, you know what I’m sayin’? And I understand why you’re doing it. But I do believe that, you know, I believe in you Cha-Cha, you know, we did seen some things together and we did did some things together and we’re gonna continue, even though I’m a better disc jockey than you are. JJ: (inaudible). (Laughter) BB: I can’t stand the smell of it. 28 �JJ: (inaudible). BB: Yeah. But this can be a beginning of something ’cause anything else salient in your mind, you wanna shoot at me? JJ: Did you see any [01:04:00] connections in terms of the Young Lords and the Panthers, what were some of the events that connect -- what were some of the things that we did together? BB: Well, you know, the thing about it was that... JJ: Then you remember the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Oh man, yeah. I can’t talk about shit like that on here, I really will get into some trouble. But what I can say was that when you talk about coalition politics, you gotta have partners, you gotta have partners that you believe in, you gotta have people that you believe in, ’cause you’re talking about two different organizations, the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party. And you guys, particularly up under your leadership, and how you studied [01:05:00], you know, how we used to sit down and talk, how you used to collaborate with Fred, the times that he saved my ass, you know what I’m sayin’, other things that can’t be mentioned. But there would not have been a Rainbow Coalition as we know Rainbow Coalition to be in the State of Illinois without the Young Lords. Simply because you guys were organizers, you understood the street, and you looked at some of the things that we were doing and said, “That shit makes sense.” You know what I’m sayin’? And you put it into practice, you know what I’m sayin’? And I tell brothers this [01:06:00] today, calling themselves street tramps, I said, “As long as y’all out here doing this here, you’re not a threat, but the minute you start 29 �talking about organizing, the minute you start telling people they should vote, the minute you start telling young people to go to school, get a good education, that’s when you become a threat, and that’s when they’re gonna come at you.” You know what’s I’m sayin’? I would like to see another coalition come about of people working across communities like we used to do. We made a difference in Lincoln Park, you know, we made a difference over here in North Lawndale. We had our breakfast program here, we had our medical center a couple of blocks over and that was all based on the fact that we processed the needs of the people. [01:07:00] You know what I’m sayin’? We fed people initially and people started supporting us, we started testing people for sickle-cell anemia, you know, free. There were no free health clinics in Chicago at that time. You know what I’m sayin’? You guys emulated that because it works. And there are times when you ask me a question Cha-Cha that’s opened up all kind of different thought processes and I might not pinpoint an answer to you. But the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party here in the State of Illinois, [01:08:00] I can sum it up by saying this, we came together as brothers, and we trusted each other. That was in 1969, today is 2012 and we’re still doing it and we’re going to keep doing it. And it’s based on the ideology, it’s based on philosophical understanding, it's based on principles of struggle. Does that mean we don’t make mistakes? No. We’ve had our ups and downs personally, organizationally, but we done survive for some fuckin’ reason. I had no idea that me and you would ever [01:09:00] be sitting down, you know, “What’s that mother fuckin’ Cha-Cha interviewing me, who the fuck taught him how to use a god damn 30 �camera?” (laughs) You know, you’re [Howard Alton?] now, you’re [Mike Grayden?] now. You know what I’m sayin’? You’re documenting man, you know what I’m sayin’, and it’s phenomenal. And that in itself speaks more to who we were then and who we are now. Our struggle for human rights, our struggle for justice, it is just as intense now as it was 42, 43, 44 years ago, you know, we’re just on a different [01:10:00] stage of the game. I’m trying to accelerate what I’m doing. I’ll be 64 years old, I didn’t even think I’d see fuckin’ 30. Most of my life since 1971, ’72, I already had one daughter in the party in ’69, but my children became my focal point. Now my focal point are my grandchildren, giving them some insight, giving them some love, so that they will understand the type of things that they need to do not only to survive in America, but thrive [01:11:00] just in terms of making a difference. If I can’t do more than that, I’m good. JJ: Anything that you wanna add? That was what I wanted to add. What did you wanna add? BB: I’m good. JJ: You’re good, okay. END OF AUDIO FILE 31 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/209cd4e0bb793ed039cf37970288221f.mp4 e2e825a461636b871fe30060e5ffcbf2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Billy “Che” Brooks vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Juventud--Illinois--Chicago Relaciones raciales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Brooks_Billy Title A name given to the resource Billy “Che” Brooks video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brooks, Billy Description An account of the resource Billy “Che” Brooks is Deputy Minister of Education of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP) and Director of YouthLAB@1521 through the Better Boys Foundation. In 1969, Mr. Brooks was very close to Chairman Fred Hampton who was the main spokesman of the Black Panther Party in Illinois. As one of the primary leaders of the BPP, Mr. Brooks was under constant, daily harassment by the Chicago Red Squad and Gang Intelligence Unit. He also worked closely with the Young Lords through the Rainbow Coalition. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter African Americans--Personal narratives Youth--Illinois--Chicago Race relations Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/872ac31a1759c700779820c03bdb6e62.pdf b7265ba1b3c44c5295b1827efbffdc2a PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Elaine Brown Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/10/2013 Runtime: 01:00:07 Biography and Description Oral history of Elaine Brown, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 10, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you give me your name, date of birth, where you were born. ELAINE BROWN: Not date of birth. Nobody does that. JJ: Okay. Where you were born or something like that. EB: Hi, I’m Elaine Brown. I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. JJ: Okay. We’ll -- like your family or something like that. Are they all from Philadelphia or...? EB: Well, my mother was born in Philadelphia and my father was -- I don’t know where my father was born because I didn’t really know him. Until I was 13, I never met him, didn’t even know he existed. And he, as it turns out, was a doctor in Philadelphia but had been, you know -- [and?] he was married. And so, my mother was this kind of other woman, you know. And she had this illegitimate child, which was me. JJ: [00:01:00] Were you the only child or...? EB: I was the only child that -- of the two of them as far as I know. He had no children at all and I was actually the only child left in the -- on his side of the family I was the only one -- he was the only one that produced a child. JJ: Okay so you grew up in what part of Philadelphia or...? EB: I grew up in a rough area of North Philadelphia until I was about, I don’t remember, 15 or something. And we moved a lot of places in between but mostly we stayed on -- my address was an address on a street called York 1 �Street. It’s one of the most difficult areas in Philadelphia, and Philadelphia is a very sad city. JJ: What do you mean? Just kinda describe what you mean. EB: It’s sad because where I grew up is very poor and it’s in the city, so there’s no relief. There’s no grass, there’s no trees, there’s no nothing like that. And then at the same time there’s no real entertainment [00:02:00] in Philadelphia, in the sense that you can’t go anywhere. Like in New York, you could at least get out of the hood and go somewhere, but in Philadelphia there’s nowhere to really go. So, you know, you were sorta stuck in the neighborhood and I hated that. I hated the neighborhood. It was rough, there was always a gang fight. You know, you always had to watch back and, you know, this kinda thing. JJ: Okay and then -- EB: Now is this part of thing or you just using it -- JJ: Yeah j -- No, no, no, just part of thing it’s, ’cause it’s an oral history so we just trying to get a little -- EB: Oh, I see. JJ: --little personal there, but not too personal. EB: (yawns) I’m so sorry. JJ: So, whatever you -- EB: I’m gonna stop yawning. JJ: Whatever you want to say. EB: Okay. JJ: Okay. But okay so then you move where when you were 15? 2 �EB: So, you want to know something about my background? JJ: Little bit about your background. EB: Okay. So, a lot of this I wrote about in my book -- JJ: Okay. Yeah. Whatever you want. EB: -- A Taste of Power. [00:03:00] And so, the bottom line of my life as an individual was that I grew up very poor in a house of women, all of whom were very strong and independent and crazy, I would say. My mother, my grandmother, and my aunt, which was my mother’s sister. But by the time I was entering kindergarten I was taken to a very special school for children who were considered smart, or whatever. And my mother was able to finagle that. And most of the children there were Jewish and well to do, from my perspective. So, in the daytime during the school year, during the week, I would go to the little, practically all white, Jewish school and I would be Jewish, in my mind. I’d wanna fit in. And then I realized [0:04:00] I had to go back into the bowels of North Philadelphia. So, by the time I would get back to North Philadelphia, I would be Black. And this caused tremendous conflict for me internally in terms of identity and all that sort of thing. JJ: Okay, so -- EB: I just have to yawn, I’m so sorry. JJ: No, no, that’s not -- EB: You want to turn the camera off? You don’t care. JJ: I know it’s kinda late. It’s gettin’ late. We just did this panel discussion and it’s late. 3 �EB: Oh, God. Just give me a chance. I’m sorry. (yawns) Okay, go ahead. JJ: Do you wanna drink some water or something? EB: No. JJ: Okay. So, during the day you’re Jewish and at night, you Black basically? EB: Right. JJ: And so -- EB: So, I never fit into either world I lived in. I didn’t fit in where the Blacks were, plus I was going -- my mother had me in ballet school, taking piano lessons, which I later [0:05:00] believe -- or when I thought about it later, I realized it was probably my father. My father was a rich -- relatively rich Philadelphia doctor. He was a neurosurgeon. How many Black neurosurgeons? But he had a wife and she never gave him any children, and I was clearly his child because once I saw him, but more than that, his father, I look exactly like this man, but exactly. So, I had a sense that by going to these, you know, ballet lessons and piano lessons I didn’t fit into the hood. And I didn’t fit in where the white kids went to school, so I just was very, very conscious of how alone I was in the world. JJ: And so, you didn’t fit into nobody, basically you’re saying. EB: I never felt that I fit in with the Blacks or with the whites. But I fit in when I was there. As far as they knew, [0:06:00] I fit in. Whatever they were, I was. JJ: But internally you just felt -- EB: Internally I didn’t feel I fit anywhere. And as a result, I felt I fit nowhere. JJ: Okay so now you’re 15 and you moved out of Philadelphia -- EB: No, no, no, no. 4 �JJ: (inaudible) EB: So, when I was 13 or so we moved into the public housing project, which was a step up for us. (laughs) And then we -- JJ: Different part of town or? EB: No, in North Philadelphia. Very close, as a matter fact. And then we moved to an area called Tioga and, um, I can’t remember but we moved a lot after that. Finally, we moved to Germantown which, at that time, was considered a very, very upscale Black area. So, I was so happy we lived there. And that was, like, the year of my graduation from high school. JJ: What high school? EB: [0:07:00] I went to the Philadelphia High School for Girls, which was also a very special school. You had to take aptitude tests, or you had to take an entry level test if you hadn’t gone to a school that was approved or whatever. There was a big competition among the top 10 high schools, and American Girls High was among them. But Central High, which was for boys, was always ahead of Girls High in terms of scoring. Test score and so forth. Okay, I gotta wake up. I’m sorry. JJ: And where did the -- how do you get from Philadelphia to Oakland or -- EB: Well to California -- JJ: -- to California? EB: When I was around 22, I decided that I couldn’t take anymore of Philadelphia. I had one thing that happened that sort of, you know, pushed me over the edge, as it were, was that I had this little Jewish boyfriend when I was 16 [0:08:00] and 5 �I was madly in love with him. And I just knew we were gonna get married, and I had this vision, you know, of us going off into the sunset. You know, one of those kinds of things. And the first thing he did was -- I said I wanted to go to a movie, a walk-in theater ’cause we went to drive-ins all the time. And he said, “No. I can’t go there because I might see someone in my family.” And I thought, “And what?” Because I had become so superficial and so self-absorbed, I didn’t think that it mattered. I thought I was so above the average Black. And he said we couldn’t go because of that. And then later, we went somewhere in his car. He had a Lincoln Town Car. This is a 17-year-old boy. And it was a Friday night and we went by the synagogue where his parents attended. [0:09:00] And they were just letting out. And when he saw that, he goes, “Oh my God, duck.” That one word killed me. And after that, we kinda broke up. And so, I don’t know why I’ve told you this because I’m really getting sleepy. I’m so sorry. I’d almost ask you to do this early in the morning, rather than now, ’cause I’m really sleepy. But what do you wanna do? JJ: Well -- EB: I’m tryin’ to move but I lost my train of thought though, just then. JJ: Well, you said that he said, “duck”. EB: Yeah, no, no. That’s -- I remember the story. I’m talkin’ about where was this coming from? Where was I going with this story? What was the reason I described that to you? Oh, why I left Philadelphia. See I was trying to make the thread, okay. All right, so we sort of separated and then I went to Temple University. And [0:10:00] one day I just heard from him, out of the blue, and he 6 �said, “I’ve been trying to reach you.” And this, and that, and the other. And so, I agreed to meet him, and he wanted to have sex with me. And I thought, “You figure because I’m some Black girl and, you know, that I’m easy and this is how this is gonna go?” So, I said, “I never want to see you again.” And I walked away from and away from school. Then I got a job, and the whole Philadelphia was driving me crazy. Between him, my father, my mother, all these things, and one day I just picked up and went to LA. Because I had an aunt there, but I didn’t really know her that well. One of my mother’s sisters. JJ: Okay, and so you -- What happened after that, after you got to LA? I mean, what did you -- did you get involved in the party right away? EB: No, no, no. I mean, here it was 1965, Watts is blowing up, and [0:11:00] I could care less. You know, I was just in Philadelphia trying to make my way. I mean, in Los Angeles trying to make my way. And eventually I did some really ugly things, that I describe in my book, to survive. I didn’t have any money and so I tried to turn tricks. And eventually I got a guy, like, my neighbor. Literally, I was homeless at the time. I mean, like, for one day. Not like, homeless, but one day. I didn’t know where I really fit in. And that was the day I went and applied for a job at The Pink Pussycat, which was strip club. But I wasn’t -- I was gonna be a cocktail waitress, and so I was. And it was sort of like the bunny clubs in a sense, but we were the pussycats, you know. So, we had, like, a feather boa around our neck and it draped down and then, like a tail. And [0:12:00] when men would -- so anyways, so that’s where I worked. I was only concerned about my own, you know, survival. So, I had nothing to do with the Black Panther Party 7 �at that time. Eventually, I was living in an area called Westwood, which is sort of a UCLA -- well, it’s the hub of where UCLA is. It is very well-to-do, upscale. And I moved in there... I lost the train of thought again. I’m sorry. JJ: (inaudible) EB: I’m really getting sleepy. I don’t know what to tell ya. I just am really punchy, sleepy. JJ: Okay. EB: I know you don’t wanna stop because you had the opportunity to do this. I’m willing to get up early in the morning, get dressed early, but right this moment I can’t even tell you where I was going with that. JJ: Okay. I don’t want to-- EB: Huh? JJ: Yeah, if you can’t... (break in audio) JJ: (inaudible) EB: Yeah, I left Philadelphia because I thought that Philadelphia was a problem in my life. In other words, I decided that the issues of -- the problems of life existed all in Philadelphia. EB: There was [00:13:00] the absence of my father and the knowledge that he was in world but I didn’t know him. And there was this love affair I had with this Jewish boy who caused me to leave Temple University. But then I was there a couple more years. And there was nothing in Philadelphia that made sense to me. All of my history there was depressing for me. But the real deal, you know, as one 8 �finds out later in life, was really my mother. But that’s another conversation. JJ: Bet. But you said somethin’ about he told you to duck or somethin’. EB: Yeah, well that -- well I told you you had to pick up the story from where we wanted. I’m not gonna -- that is not the key story of my life. Okay? JJ: Okay. EB: It’s just a story that defines the -- JJ: I’m sorry. EB: -- racism as I experienced it because I had an illusion about myself, as most Black people do in America. We’re always, as Du Bois says, “We live a dual reality.” We have to live in the white world and we have to live in the Black world, and the white world is the dominant world culturally, economically, socially, politically, in any way. So, we have to either become white [00:14:00] and adapt to being white, or we have to realize that we are living in an inferior parallel universe. And so, at the time, I thought I was, you know, above other Black people. I wasn’t really that Black, and I had this nice little Jewish boyfriend, and so forth. And that was when I was 16, but moving ahead, I ran into him again at Temple University, and that caused me to leave school but that didn’t cause me to leave Philadelphia. There were a number of reasons, as I started to say, and those reasons had to do with my self-imposed idea that Philadelphia was, in and of itself, a problem. The poverty that I grew up with, I detested. I detested myself, and thinking about myself as a person who, I wasn’t sure whether I was Black or white, I -- there wasn’t anything in my life, about me, that I liked. Nothing, zero, and I thought it was Philadelphia. So, if I left Philadelphia, I could 9 �take on a new life [00:15:00] and a new persona. And the place farthest away, that I knew how to get to and had some information about, was Los Angeles. So, I just arbitrarily quit my job one day and I had 300 dollars in a savings account or something, which I thought was a lot of money. After I bought a ticket, it weren’t JJ: What kind of work were you doing? EB: I was working at the Philadelphia Electric Company or something, as a clerk. You know, nothing. I was drifting. My life was not mine. I did not have an identity. I didn’t have a sense of myself, and what I did have a sense of, I hated. And so, I couldn’t get out of me, you know. So, if you can just run and not look in the mirror, and that’s how I felt, you know, that I was not happy with the person that I was. And I really didn’t even know who I was in terms of anything. I was completely confused about myself and, more importantly, I didn’t wanna be me. [00:16:00] But I didn’t have an idea of who I did wanna be, so I just adapted it, adopted other people’s things and adapted to whatever there was out there. So, I didn’t have a plan. I didn’t have anything. And of course, I had a family that, you know, sort of my whole life lead to that. I didn’t have a place to be. I didn’t fit in with the Blacks, as I talked about, I didn’t fit in with the whites, and I didn’t like either one anyway. And I didn’t like me, so really, it was running from me to Los Angeles. And I thought I could sort of shed whatever I was and somehow magically become some new person that I would like, or even -- I couldn’t imagine how could like themselves. I mean, you have no idea as to the level of self-hatred that I lived under for the first 25 years of my life, or less, little less. 10 �And when I got to Los Angeles, I just went there on a lark. I got a hotel room, I had no money, and then it occurred to me after about a week -- and I --[00:17:00] the first or second night, I met some old guy and he offered me some money. And I gave him the sex, he didn’t give me the money, right? (laughter) EB: And then he set me up with somebody else and it was the same kind of deal it was this -- (inaudible) Actually, I talk about this in my book. When I look back on it, I don’t even know who that person was, and I feel so sorry for her, meaning me. I was so vulnerable because I had nothing of myself that mattered, you know. So, when I, you know, I just drifted around and I had no money at all. And eventually, I got a job selling books door-to-door, and then I moved in with these girls into this house. And we were kinda frivolous, we were young, and we just spent the money on drinking and carrying on. I didn’t even know them, we just worked together in this crazy place which eventually became part of [00:18:00] a cult. I can’t remember the guy’s name or not, if I could think of it right now, I’d tell ya. But anyway, it became some sort of a new-age thing that people were doing at the time and they were, you know... But this sales piece was out of that, I mean, in other words he was really just selling an idea then. But anyway, so, in the course of things, I ran into this little hippie guy who’s on acid every day. But he gave me a place to live because we were kicked out of that house, and I didn’t have any money, and have any place to live, and I didn’t have a job. And he suggested I work at this place called The Pink Pussycat, just because he was a person that just hung out in the world. He was a street guy for (inaudible) oneroom apartment. And he was always on -- either smoking weed or whatever. 11 �And he took me down -- I didn’t even have an ID and I didn’t have an address. So, when I went for this job, it really was a reflection of who I was. I didn’t exist, really, you know, and that’s how I felt about myself. [00:19:00] I didn’t exist. I was, like, watching a movie and I wasn’t sure who I was in the movie. Or I wasn’t even in the movie, it was a movie of other things. And the horror of that is, when left alone, I didn’t have a movie. Do you know what I mean? In other words -So, I realize this is not a psychological journey, but it is a part of what motivates you to do things. And so, I wasn’t motivated, I was just drifting. And so, I landed in this job at The Pink Pussycat, and because I was the only black there, I was sorta popular. And I wasn’t too black if you know what I mean, like Obama’s not too black. And so, I went to The Pink Pussycat and within a couple of weeks I met this very rich white man, older man. He had come into the club with Frank Sinatra. The place had become very, very popular. And I was a cocktail waitress in false everything and, you know, sucked up this, and pushed out that, and, you know, everything, high heels, and just, you know, one step from being a ho. (laughter) EB: Well, maybe not even one step, but anyway. [00:20:00] And so, this guy, who was 55 and I was 22, said -- They took me to a party at Frank Sinatra’s house because, as I said, I was drifting. Okay, I’m going to a party at Frank Sinatra’s house, yeah. (laughs) And I thought they were taking me there as sort or like a prize, and I’d get maybe a 500-dollar tip. ’Cause we made a lot of money in the club, right. Even then, it was a lot of money. It’d be a lot of money today, almost, a 500-dollar tip. But it wasn’t something we couldn’t imagine, you know. A 100- 12 �dollar tip was pretty common, but 500... So, I figure I’m gonna make 500, 1000 bucks by just showing up and taking off my little coat, and there I’d have the little Pink Pussycat outfit on. But as it turned out, it wasn’t a big party. It was just this guy, and Frank Sinatra, and this guy named Jack Entratter, who was owner of the Sands Hotel, which was part of that whole mafia chain of hotels in Las Vegas. [00:21:00] So, this guy introduces himself, his name was Jay Kennedy and there’s been a lot of controversy about this, but I don’t feel anything -- I was a 22-year-old girl who met this extremely rich man who knew everything, and the first thing he started talking about was the march on Washington. I was like, “Well, why is he telling me about this? What has this to do with me? I don’t have anything to do with these negros and their issues of civil rights.” (laughter) And the fires of Watts were burning all around while I was saying all this. Can we stop for a minute? ’Cause I just need to... (break in audio) EB: So, when I met this guy, the first thing he talked about at this party where there was nobody, but I was like the party for him, I guess. But since I had done so much other stuff in my life at that point, I didn’t see anything wrong with it, but I knew I had to get the money first. (laughter) Or, as they say, get the money upfront. So, I said to this -- he’s telling me [00:22:00] about the march on Washington and I’m thinking, “Is this Frank Sinatra’s house?” I mean, it’s like, we’re in Bel Air, Beverly Hills, whatever. And I’m like, did I just not have a place to live two weeks ago. And so, around four o’clock in the morning, he’s still talking, and I’m really sort of half listening. But I’m thinking, “Well what do I do 13 �now? How do I get out of this house, or how do we get to the money? Whatever it is we’re getting ready to do.” And he says maybe I wanted to stay, and that he had a suite in the house, in Frank’s house, and this is his good friend, and how I could stay in the bedroom. He would sleep in the living room. And I was thinking, “Somebody has a house with a suite in it?” You know? (laughter) Wasn’t thinking about just sleeping, I was thinking about... And it was so incredible. And the next morning this maid came with this orange juice and, you know, and coffee [came out?]. And I had on my -- I had a robe on, they gave me a robe. He gave me a robe. So, I had to put my Pink Pussycat [00:23:00] outfit on to go back home in. Which my little apartment I lived in. By then, I had an apartment because I was making so much money, I could even afford an apartment. And I had moved out from [Bruce?] I’m pretty sure. And they had a chauffeur, a guy named George, who actually became sort of a famous character in the life of Frank Sinatra, black guy, very handsome. And he took me home in this limo, right? And this guy, Jay, called me and took me out to the Beverly Hills Hotel, and we had like a bottle of champagne that probably cost, you know, somebody’s rent. You know what I’m saying? That kind of thing. And some caviar, and he had some violins, and I was like -- this was a universe I had no knowledge of. But it’s not hard to fall into, you know? (laughs) It’s not hard to eat well. So, and I certainly had no class attitudes or anything else about any of this. As a matter of fact, I would have drifted toward it because I had been, [00:24:00] you know, brought up in this universe of ballet and going to these white schools with all these rich white people and so forth. And after that, 14 �ultimately, I became his regular concubine, one could say. I was his lover. He was married and he lived in New York. And so, he would come and then he would set me up in a place, and then I left The Pink Pussycat after a while. And all he did was talk to me about Marxism, Leninism, and so forth and so on, and none of this made sense to me. What made sense to me was that I was valued somewhere in the world, in a world that I had no sense of myself as a person of value. And it was listening to him over those next two years that made me conscious of political differences, social class, race. He embraced me as a black woman, which I didn’t even do. And it's so funny because people say -- there’s a thing about him saying, [00:25:00] “Oh he might have been a CIA Agent.” And there’s people that have denounced me because I talk openly about this relationship. But it was transitional, and it was transformative in my life because I felt protected enough to examine myself and admit that I hated being black, but I didn’t necessarily want to be white. I didn’t like anything about myself, and it was he who sort of was a guide to those next two years and sort of -- But in guiding me and talking to me, I absolutely had to cling to him. And when I realized that we weren’t going to get married, that changed things. ’Cause, you know, when you’re young you think, “Oh yeah, this guy’s gonna leave his wife for me.” (laughter) You know, and you really think that. But the other thing is that, during the course of his being away, I met a black woman in the building I lived in, in Westwood, and she had an afro. And this is, we can say, a year and a half after the Watts uprising. Because I’m now -- I arrived just before that and I met this man during that period. [00:26:00] And so, she heard -- I had a piano and I was 15 �singing. I write songs. By that time, I had written, like, 500 songs. All of them about love and really confused things. And I was playing the piano and singing, and she asked me if it were me that she heard up in, you know, singing. And the first thing she said to me is, “How you doin’ sister?” And I’m thinking, “To whom (laughter) is she speaking? I am not anybody’s sister. Certainly not your sister.” Not in any meaning -- I understood her meaning but I didn’t care. So, I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Do you play piano?” I said, “Of course.” And she said, “Could you teach piano to some kids that I have a program in Watts?” I said, “Sure.” I had nothing else to do, I was this kept woman. Right? So, (laughs) I had this thing on called a fall. This is like a hairpiece and you slick your hair back and then you can slick this on like a comb. And then the hair -- so you don’t have to really worry about your hair. [00:27:00] You can slick it on and then... So, I had this hair, (laughter) you know, it was the ’60s, and I had these long eyelashes from the Pink Pussycat period. Right? And I remember I had this sundress on, I can remember it cost 200 dollars. This is 1966, 7? And some sandals, and I just remember how I looked, and I went down to Watts with her. (laughter) Into the Jordan Downs Housing Project. And when I got there, this was another transformative moment, first, it was like where I used to live in the, what was it called? Not Richard Allen, I can’t remember. All of a sudden, I can’t remember. But anyway, when I moved out of the first place I knew of that I lived in North Philadelphia, which was a very rough area, and we moved to the project. JJ: To Germantown? EB: Well, later we moved to Germantown, but in that first year we lived in the James 16 �Weldon Johnson Homes. (laughter) They always name these [buildings?] the Black -- the historic [00:28:00] Black figures. James Weldon Johnson, and we had moved up by getting into public housing. So, but this place was laid out like the place I had lived in, in the Jordan Downs Projects. And because it was sort of flat and spread out as opposed to high-rise, that kind of thing, and it was twostory. And so, the feeling of that reminded me of who I was because, at this point, I was this girl with these eyelashes, and this hair, and this kept -- this man. Right? And I was just gonna maybe do some charity work, or whatever I thought I was doing in the illusion -- in the imagery I had painted of myself for that day. And so, when I got down to the Jordan Downs Project, I was thrown back into my history in the hood where life was really hard. And then she opened the door to this project -- her apartment she had rented for this program, which was, you know, some child development program or whatever. [00:29:00] And I walked in there and there were all these little girls, all these little black girls in there. And they were just these little, sweet girls. Seven, eight, nine years old, and looking pretty unkept and unkempt. And she had nothing in there, like a few chairs, and then she had this bookshelf. And the only book on it was, I could just remember was called Yes I Can by Sammy Davis Jr., and I thought, “What a stupid fucking book that is.” And I knew who Sammy Davis Jr. was because I’m living with a man who’s Frank Sinatra’s best friend. Okay? And I mean, literally, if you were to talk to Dean and Sinatra today, or one of them, they would tell ya that this guy was his best friend. So, I’m looking at this book so I have all these reactions to it. And like, these little girls, who have nothing, you wanna have them look at 17 �Sammy Davis’s stupid ass book called Yes I Can. You know, like, if I really believe in myself, Oprah Winfrey, you know what I’m saying? (laughs) America’s a great place if you really try [00:30:00] hard and you really believe in yourself. And I looked at them and I kept saying -- and they were, like, calling me Ms. Brown and I was thinking, “You don’t need piano lessons. You need a fucking life. I know ’cause I’ve been you. No, wait a minute, I am you.” And it killed me. It was so powerful a moment in my life that, you see now even, I am moved by it because I was so ashamed that I had left them, and I was so ashamed that I couldn’t help them. And that I wanted to go back to my little world with Jay Kennedy, and Piper-Heidsieck champagne, and caviar, and a life in France or somewhere where we wanna live and be away from the regular things. And I wouldn’t have to worry about these little girls in the world I would be living in. Right? But I couldn’t, and I could not -- I said to my friend, this girl, [Beverly?], that lived in the building, I said, “I can’t do this. I can’t teach these girls. I have nothing to offer them.” [00:31:00] But I did go back, and that was the beginning of my, what the Chinese call [fanshen?], you know, what Christians might be calling born again. It was a consciousness raising moment that was so incredible. So, I had to tell Jay Kennedy, “Look, we need to get married, like, right now. I need to be in France. I cannot be in America. I can’t look at any of this anymore. And if I can’t get married to you, I don’t ever want to talk to you anymore because I have something else I have to do.” And so, I just left him and everything, and then I had to get a job, which wasn’t easy. And I went back to Jordan Downs and taught these girls for a while and... But as a result, I became 18 �immersed in the rising Black movement, and I became Black, you know. And I took off my fall, you know? (laughs) And I curled my hair a little bit, and [00:32:00] I started going down to a place called the Black Congress, that Beverly had told me about. And it was a meeting place after the Watts uprising, everybody was Black, and everybody’s running around, you know. And so, all the various organizations that were arising, or that were coming into being, but everything from the Welfare Rights Organization to Karenga’s US Organization. All of those were in this building and they had formed some sort of a coalition, but it wasn’t really a coalition because Karenga was running ’cause everybody was sort of afraid of him because he looked militant. (laughs) And so, I sort of found my way there because I could read and write, you know, that put me in a new category among the -- in the hood. And so, I did a lot of writing, and then I ran into these people from the Black Student Alliance and I became a part of that, even though I wasn’t a student. I got a job at UCLA at one point, so that kind of put me in UCLA. But mostly what I did was steal [00:33:00] stuff from there for the Black Student Alliance, and I relied on my skills from the hood, so I could resurrect some of that, right? Because I did come from there. And so, that was a big moment, we can say 1967 or so, and somewhere in there we heard about this Huey Newton getting shot. This was a distant, you know, sound. We didn’t really have very much -- nobody really knew much about this in October of ’67 when Huey was shot. But one thing I knew, I didn’t like Karenga because they were all into this super nationalistic stuff. And so, I had one of these guys say to me, you know, one of Karenga’s people ’cause I would see them ’cause I was 19 �there, like, volunteering. I was just immersed in Black life. And I had this guy say to me, I was wearing a miniskirt because I had plenty of them, and he said, [00:34:00] “Sistas don’t wear miniskirts. That’s what the white girls wear.” Something like that. So now, oh well now you want to call back the girl that grew up on 21st and [York?], you don’t see my face cut. ’Cause remember, while I did go up outta the subway on one end and was white, I was living in the hood and I was one of the baddest bitches there. So, because, I wasn’t gonna get hurt, so I had to be the most aggressive, the toughest, and so forth and so on. And so, whatever my reality was, I was certainly able to recall my skills from the street. And I said, “Well you know, when a brotha buys my clothes, then he can tell me what to do.” So, I always had a conflict with them, okay? And so, while we were there, one of these nights we had this meeting, and I was now on the council that the Black Congress -- I was a member of the Black Congress representing the Black Student Alliance, which was really pretty funny, when one thinks about it. And Karenga’s sitting there looking like, you know, some offshoot Buddha or something, and with [00:35:00] that high-pitched voice, and that effeminate air. But anyway, and in comes this guy and he says he’s from the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. And he’s got on this black leather, and he wants to talk about Huey Newton. He wants to appeal to the congressmembers, ’cause we’re at about, you know, 20 some organizations that were represented, to get support for the trial of Huey P. Newton. And Karenga’s like, “We don’t have time to talk about that. You’re not on the agenda brother.” And this and that, and that’s how he always talked, like this. His little high-pitched, little effeminate air. And there 20 �was a guy there named Crook, Brother Crook. And he was with -- I don’t know if he was with sn-- Oh, he had something called Community Alert Patrol, and they would follow the police, and take pictures, and stuff like this, right? And eventually he became a member of SNCC, but Crook was like my partner in that group. And he was like, “Well we want to hear what this brother has to say.” So, he said, “Well let’s vote on it [00:36:00] and have applicant consensus.” (laughter) He was so stupid. And so, his theory was that, unless we had a 100 percent vote, then we couldn’t go forward. So, everybody voted to hear what this guy had to say except him, so he said we can’t do it. We’re like, “You’re overruled.” And nobody had ever done this to him before, at least within the short life of the Black Congress. So, this guy [Earl?] came and talked about Huey Newton, and how he had offed a pig, or he was charged, you know, and these were words nobody had ever heard before. Not even these militant nationalists, right? ’Cause they were all about, you know, Black cultural, you know, something back to Africa. The Africa that they had designed, by the way, from the American point of view. So, we were all just stunned by this whole thing. Black guys with these guns, everybody had a gun, but [00:37:00] nobody was using a gun. (laughs) So, this guy was something else and we all -- so, I started talking to him and... So, bit by bit, I ran into a few of these people, and I had this friend named [Sandra Scott?], she was in the Black Student Alliance. And she was helping me to read things, you know, reading Wretched of the Earth, which was the Bible of that time. And reading and all this stuff, I was just, like, bombarded now with consciousness, all of this was opening up. You know, 21 �it’s like I couldn’t stop learning and absorbing things. And so, eventually we ran into -- I ran into Eldridge Cleaver some kinda way, and one of these, you know, movement parties was emerging and he coming -- he was this figure that was truly bigger than life. Eldridge was like six-five or something, was very handsome. And so, it was such a big moment, you know, we couldn’t imagine such a thing. Seeing these people and these guys were all so, you know, so something. I don’t know. They were [00:38:00] such men, you know. And I began to write songs about black men, for which I was soundly criticized by a lot of feminists, by the way. So-called feminists. But at the time, all of this was swirling around, and somewhere in the middle of this, Bunchy Carter appears. And we’re all having some sort of poetry reading. You know, like, now they have this slam, everybody’s talkin’ about the man, everybody talking, right? Just talk, talk, talk, talk. And in comes, into this room that the Black Congress had this big event, like one of these big community events, and people get up and say their poems. And I got up and said one too about how the men were treating women. But anyway, Bunchy Carter appears in this room with, like, 20 guys, right? From the street. And they’re all, you know, they got their hats on ace-deuce, and they’re all strapped. All of ’em. And they line the room. Everybody’s like, “Ooh.” And Bunchy says, “Well I come to say that we have just formed the Black Panther Party [00:39:00] Southern California chapter.” And he says -- and then he has somebody to unfurl the Huey Newton famous poster in the chair, and he says, “And from this point forward, everybody will be putting this picture up. Because Huey did what you niggas is thinkin’ about, talkin’ about doin’. He 22 �challenged the police.” You know, and he said, “And that’s what we gonna do. We here to say that the pig can no longer come through this community and hurt us and hurt our people.” And that, “Because if the pig comes here tonight, what would we do brother?” Guy on the wall said, “We would put his dick in the dirt.” I said, “Oh Lord what is going on here?” (Laughter) It was another pivotal moment because you could not now unknow what you just saw or heard. You could now say -- you can write your little articles and you can your little dashiki on, and you can walk around her talkin’ this shit, but now you know something new has happened. And everybody in LA knew it. Everybody was terrified, [00:40:00] from the police to the Black militants. Because now, a line had been drawn. A reality had been presented. We were now engaged in something different. We’re challenging the government directly. This was not about a program, this was about a challenge to the fundamental structure in America, and we all got it, and we got it that night. And that word was like wildfire, that there was a Black Panther Party chapter. The Black Student Alliance people became afraid. I mean, everybody was, like, shaking. Not because we’re afraid of the Panthers, but we were now afraid, or people were afraid, that we would have to come up to do something, right? So, when I met this Eldrige Cleaver and, you know, I was just madly in love with him. He was just absolutely this. And I spent a night with him, and so this was like, “okay.” And within a week or so later, he was -- it was after Martin Luther King was killed. That was [00:41:00] before, when I was with him, and after Martin Luther King was killed, two days later, there was an incident with Eldridge and Bobby Hutton. And Bobby Hutton, who was a young member 23 �of the Black Panther Party, 17 years old, was killed by police and Eldridge was wounded. And so, I walked into the Black Panther office, like, about the next day. And it was a surrender, it wasn’t just, “Oh, I’m joining.” It was a surrender. It was, “Okay, this is it. We’re down now.” And it’s no more turning back, and there’s no more pretending that I don’t understand because of all that I learned from Jay, and all that I learned in the middle, and all the consciousness that I now had. There is no unknowing, there’s no pretending. This is the way it is. We gon-- either I’m gonna throw down with this, or I’m gonna live a fake life for the rest of my life. And I cannot live that ’cause I did that for 20 some years. So, this is who I had to be, and this is who I needed to be. So, when I joined the Black Panther Party, it wasn’t, you know, just joining some little organization. It was surrendering my life, [00:42:00] but not in any sad way, but in a meaningful way. And saying, “Okay. This is who I am, and I surrender to this legacy, or this potential, or this life. And I will dedicate myself to it from this point forward.” And that’s what I did, you know, for the next 10 years. You know, watching a lot of my friends, of course, be killed and being a little shocked but sort of -- we all kind of knew that this was what we signed up for, and it was not going to be, you know, I’m gonna have a little job and do this on the side, and this gonna be my volunteer work or... No this was my life. I was dedicating myself to eliminating the government that had so oppressed our people, and other people, and so forth and so on. And so, that was the journey to the Black Panther Party. JJ: So, you said some people got killed. Some of your friends. EB: [00:43:00] Yeah, a lot of people were killed. 24 �JJ: Who were some of them? EB: Well, in the beginning, you know, in my experience in the Black Panther Party, of course, you know, Bunchy Carter was the organizer of the Southern California chapter. And, as we would learn, we had a chapter that was so -- the LAPD was so vicious that the Chicago PD looked up to them. (laughter) And so, at once we had -- it was a strange situation in Los Angeles because we had, you know, this whole Hollywood Universe with a lot of money, so we had probably -- eventually we would have more money than most chapters, just because we were in the Hollywood area. But at the same time, we had the most vicious police department, so we were always getting arrested, stopped, what have you. And in the beginning, when I started out working in the party, I’m not sure we had the newspaper regularly out by then. Well, maybe we had a little bit of a newspaper, [00:44:00] but it wasn’t the way it -- soon it became a very big part of the party’s - it was a big information instrument, obviously. And so, I’m trying to remember, eventually I was working very, very hard, and, you know, we were going to political education classes. And then we moved out of the Black Congress. We were in the Black Congress at some point. We had an office there, but the Karenga piece was getting too heavy, and we got an office in on Central Avenue, 41st and Central Avenue. So, I spent time there cleaning, like everybody. Tryin’ to figure out how we’d get equipment. You know, we basically were tryin’ to start up, we can say, and then going to classes. And then, eventually, at some point, I can’t recall, but I did have a job at the beginning. I had a small job in a poverty program. And there was a moment when I just went crazy. I had some sort of a 25 �total meltdown because it was like, now this was too much too soon or [00:45:00] something and it was all converging. And I had to go and see a therapist, and I went crazy, literally. And this woman gave me Thorazine. And I said, “I can’t be in the Black Panther Party. I know that I’m really scared. And I’m not gonna be in the Black Panther Party. But if I’m not in the Black Panther Party, I’m not gonna be in anything.” And so therefore, what do I do? I’m back to being the person that I hated being. And on one hand I was afraid, and I knew a lot of these people. Franco, and lil’ Tommy Lewis, and all these people that were joining the Black Panther Party in Southern California. They’re pretty, pretty panty, where all these people from the streets, you know, the gang members, the [Slawsons?] who had transformed themselves because of Bunchy. And, John Huggins, and Ericka Huggins and the -- and Ericka was the captain of the women, and so she was my leader, at the time. And she would say, “We might have to learn how to sleep with the enemy to get information [00:46:00] one day, or slit his throat the next.” And I was like, “Really?” (laughter) We had to do all that? I was terrified. And so, at some point, we can say in July or something, that had been, like, February or April, and by July I was afraid. Not afraid of anything that had happened, but, like, the potential. That this wasn’t really me, that I was really faking and that, just like my whole life, this was not real, and I hated myself. So, I spun out of control. And so, this doctor, instead of saying, you know, “What’s going on?” and... She gave me Thorazine, and Thorazine is a drug that is, uh, I mean, it’s for, I don’t know. I don’t know what it’s for. It’s supposed to calm you down, I guess. But they give it to elephants or something. 26 �(laughter) I mean, seriously, I was thinking -- I weighed 105 pounds and I was taking 100 milligrams of Thorazine a day. So, I moved to the Watts office of this poverty program, where nobody wanted to go, on 103rd Street. Which I could never get to, because I was on Thorazine, and so I would fall asleep on the bus all the time. And at some point, [00:47:00] they had this alleged program, of course after Watts, you know, everybody was offering poverty program money to every pimp, dope deal -- dope boy, well there weren’t that many dope boys, but you know what I mean. Everybody from the street that wanted to go in and walk in and get a program, they could get one, right? So, this program was called the Watts Happening Coffee House, and it had been transformed from -- it was burnt down -- Diamond Jim’s Furniture Store had been burnt down (laughter) and they had developed this program, but there was no real program there. It was just some money being handed off to this guy, was a leader of a gang in Watts, right? (laughter) It was like, “Here’s some money, please don’t kill us.” Right? So, ’cause that’s all the poverty program was and, but I loved it because I could fall asleep on Thorazine. I didn’t have to -- I was the only person there who knew how to type, read, or write, you know? So, I kept the books, so you had like 50 people on the payroll and there were only, like, 5 people there, you know? (laughter) So, I was the person that did all the paperwork, in between nodding out, right? And some point, John Huggins came down there to [00:48:00] Watts because he was looking for an office, another branch office for the Black Panther Party. And he came in there and he said, “Elaine, how you doin’? We miss you.” And I was like, “Oh no, we don’t miss me.” I couldn’t look at him, you know? 27 �You know, no, no. And he said, “What are you taking?” And I was thinking, “How did he know I was taking...?” (laughter) I’s sitting there nodding like somebody on heroin, right? But in the meantime, there was a, like, little bit of programming. So, on a Sunday they would have this sort of a jazz thing at the Watts Happening Coffee House, and there was a guy there Horace Tapscott. He had a band called the, it was, like, the Arkestra. The venue was very Africancentered and so forth, and they let me play songs with them. And so, I had this, like, little singing career. Not really, but, you know, singing this kind of, like, coffee house thing and... So, I say all that to say that that was what I was doing in between, and [00:49:00] Horace would take me back and forth. He started taking me back and forth home so I wouldn’t have to take all these buses and get lost, where I take hours to get anywhere (laughter) because I would fall asleep all the time. And then John came, and John said, “Elaine you gotta stop.” I said, “Oh, I can’t go back.” And he said, “Well, why don’t you get off of whatever you’re taking.” And I told him eventually. And he came to see me almost every day. “How you doin’ today?” And he said, “Why don’t you try to take three pills instead of four?” And I was terrified because I was so addicted to this stuff, at this point. And I wasn’t going to any therap-- I was just taking Thorazine now, you know? And she gave me an open-ended prescription, so I could just get it. Isn’t that weird, when you think about it? And I took that Thorazine, and I stopped taking four, I took three. And I was, like, “Wow, made through the day.” Right? And meantime my mother had moved to Los Angeles, which was just really the nemesis of my life, but that’s another conversation. And so [00:50:00] 28 �I’d be nodding out talking to her, whatever it was, and here just kinda twirling around. And then in August, Horace Tapscott said to me, “Did you hear about what happened earlier today at the corner of Mont Clair and Adams?” As we like to say now. And I said, “No.” And he said, “You know, three members of the Black Panther Party were killed by the police on that corner.” And he mentioned one of them, and he was Tommy Lewis, who was 17 years old. And he was like Ericka and John’s little son, even though there wasn’t that much difference in the ages. And we all loved little Tommy Lewis, and he was like Bobby Hutton. Just a little, fierce street boy, terrible, you know, tough, and he had been shot. And then there was this guy, Steve Bartholomew, 21 years old, and they had shot his head off his shoulders, right there in front of everybody on the corner of Adams and Mont Clair. And I was like, “Oh! No this is too much. This is too much.” So, John said, “We need you. We need you.” And so, [00:51:00] the more he said it, the more I went down to two pills, and one pill, and then no pills and went back and, you know, rejoined the party and began to live with John, and Ericka, and a bunch of other people in this house on Century Boulevard, which was in, like, Inglewood or somewhere outside of Watts, South Central LA, whatever. And for me, as I think back about it, as I characterize it, it was Camelot, you know? It was working every day and, you know, living in this collective with these really wonderful comrades. And it didn’t matter what happened to us because now we were -- it was clear to me that I was okay with me, at this point, and what I was doing. And so, we sold papers or whatever we did, talked about opening another office, and, you know, recruiting people for the party, all of the things, whatever 29 �we did. It was just day-to-day, every [00:52:00] day, you know. Cleaning guns (laughs), going out and learning how to -- going out to the Mojave Desert. (laughter) (phone ringing) You want to turn your...? JJ: Yeah. EB: Who is calling -- (break in audio) EB: Bringing my book up last night to be signed. It’s, like, being taught in every school. JJ: But what’s the name of it, again? EB: A Taste of Power. JJ: Oh, A Taste of Power. EB: Yeah, yeah. So, that was in, we can say late August, so from that point forward, we all then enrolled, amazingly -- when I say we all was John Huggins, and Bunchy, and Geronimo Pratt, and myself enrolled in UCLA all for our different reasons, in this program called the high potential program. And of course, when we got there, John and I were doing the main work. I mean, Bunchy would just come through from time -- he just did it as a satisfaction for his parole requirements. (laughter) And Geronimo sort of drove him there all the time. He was sort of Bunchy’s driver and other stuff. And so, John Huggins and I [00:53:00] used to do all the whatever work. And we would try to organize around -- against the war, you know, blah blah blah. And we did all these different things, and, in the course of things, we tried to build up the Black Student Union, which had sort of come into being, but really wasn’t anything but 30 �worryin’ about, you know, what kind of music was being played in the cafeteria, what have you. And so, in the course of all of that, you know, you had... (knocking) Come on in. AARON DIXON: Okay. EB: We’re finishing up. AD: Oh, here y’all are. EB: We’re on camera. No, come on in Aaron please. How ya doin’? AD: Doin’ good. EB: How you doin’ this morning? AD: How you guys doin’? EB: I’m doin’ good. I’m doin’ good. AD: That’s good. [Bread?] up. EB: So, we gonna finish up -- You want to get me to some of the things -- JJ: Yeah. EB: -- about the Puerto Rican things. But anyway, so let’s --I’ve had emotional moments, though, here. AD: Oh really? EB: Yeah. Yeah, you know, when you think about, you know, you can write this stuff and then it’s on the page and you’re finished, and then you have to revisit some of the points of how did you get here, so... JJ: Uh-huh. EB: So, okay. So, where are we? JJ: [00:54:00] We were -- 31 �EB: I hope you have a good editor. JJ: Yeah, no. We had a -- we were talkin’ ’bout some of the work that was being done in LA. EB: Yeah, so there we were doing all of our little stuff with John and with Bunchy. Going back and forth to school a lot. And so, there came to be this moment when, toward the end of the year... Are you getting a shot of Aaron? JJ: Our friend that came in. (laughter) Okay. EB: And so, toward the end of the year, there was this big confrontation because -no actually it didn’t happen at the end of the year, but there was a lot of confrontation with the US Organization at that point, and a lot of conflict. And at the very end of the year, two incredible things happened on December 31st. One was that Bunchy announced -- and we had some event in, I don’t remember where it was, but it was an auditorium. I don’t know why we were in an auditorium. And Bunchy announced and brought all these [00:55:00] Latino guys up on stage, and they all had on the brown beret. And he said, “This is the Brown Berets, and we are in a --” I don’t know if the word coalition -- I don’t think we used the word coalition. But, “These are our partners. So, we are announcing today, that the Brown Berets and the Black Panthers, we are one and the same. We are here to off the pig.” And whatever else they said, right? And all of us were like, “What? Brown Berets?” And that literally was the first, I’m sure, first sort of formal announcement. And that was amazing how conscious Bunchy was about that. And we had been conscious of that just before that because, you know, the big drink of the street in those days was what 32 �they called a short dog of Gallo wine. And they would pour some of the red wine out and put in some lemon juice, shake it up, and they called it shake ’em up, and that’d make you sweat and get hot fast because the lemon -- I don’t know, whatever the interaction of those two things was. But anyway, so he [00:56:00] forbid everybody from drinking Gallo wine. Which was really -- people might think that’s nothing, but it was a big deal. JJ: (inaudible) Yeah. EB: All to support the United Farm Workers. And so, the Brown Beret thing was just a step up, you know, because this was a more -- this wasn’t a labor union, it was a revolutionary organization that was going to work in the East LA area, but be affiliated with the Black Panther Party as we thought of it at that time. And then, that same night, Bunchy announced, later on, that one of our other comrades, Franco Diggs, had been murdered in Long Beach, and been shot in the head three times. And then, we knew Franco, and we knew he was very, very paranoid and crazy, and Franco. When I first met Franco, and I describe this in my book, one of the first things he said, “Oh, you know sista,” he was from New York. “You so beautiful,” he said. “You know, I would kill two pigs for you.” (laughter) I was like, “Really?” [00:57:00] “What you think about that?” And he (inaudible). I was like, “Sounds great.” You know, what do you say, you know? (laughs) “Have you ever seen a pig shot with a .45 automatic sista?” I said to him, (laughter) “You know, let me think. Mm, no.” “Why if I was this -- if the pig was standin’ over there and I was to take my weapon, and I were to fire at him right now, his body would fall to at a 45 degree --” I was like, “What?” (laughter) 33 �And he polished his bullets, and he put a special mi-- he loaded his own bullets, you know, with gunpowder, and he put garlic, that’s what he told us. And then that -- even if he hit someone in the leg, this is what he told us, and I mean to this minute, I believe it’s true I don’t know, and that they would be poisoned. They would get lead poisoning. AD: Yeah. That was somethin’ we did. Yeah. (inaudible) thing. EB: Yeah. And so, when Franco was killed, that was a big statement because Franco was, like, invincible. [00:58:00] Franco was one of the baddest motherfuckers out there so -- no, but who kills Franco? And then, of course, two weeks later, John and Bunchy were killed by Karenga’s FBI agent members and himself at UCLA, and I was, of course, there. And it was the most probably traumatic part of my life in the Black Panther Party, or of my life period. Which I do describe in A Taste of Power. Matter of fact, I dedicate an entire chapter to that date, January 17, because it was such a powerful thing. Because here was this guy, John Huggins, who had saved my life, so he was more than just a comrade, and a hero, and a leader of the chapter, and very conscious, and very caring. And Bunchy was more than a guy that I just worshipped because he was just, he was everything including very beautiful, very smart, a poet, [00:59:00] and a solider, a revolutionary. And for these two men to get killed and for me to be right there, of course, I lived with survivor’s guilt for a long time. I would have it now, I guess, if I, you know, really thought about it, but it’s too late, you know, 40 some years later. So, they were murdered. John Huggins was shot in the back by one of Karenga’s members, who was -- that assassin, Claude Hubert 34 �“Chuchessa”, ends up in Guyana with Jim Jones. I mean, this is just, you know, talk about COINTELPRO and all that. I mean, this is not the Black Panther memory for some conspiracy theory. This is what happened, and -AD: We gotta leave ’cause of traffic. JJ: Okay. EB: So, anyway, we can, some day pick this up. You know, I have Skype, by the way. I just put that up with the camera. Do you know how to do that? JJ: Yeah, we can figure that out. [01:00:00] EB: Okay. All right, well... JJ: We have to -- we can always, you know, we’ll do a second version of this. EB: Okay. I’m willing and ready. JJ: (inaudible) All right. Thank you. Thank you. EB: All right. END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9df12dad7c23f4c2a0477479869cfb7.mp4 30c9521163426df544daf048e5f5a804 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Elaine Brown vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Elaine Brown, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/10/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Brown_Elaine Title A name given to the resource Elaine Brown video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Elaine Description An account of the resource Oral history of Elaine Brown, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/10/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d25988b78112f383b782a9c0d3fa7d5.pdf 86e8d15230b019482198d0841fc064b5 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Alfredo Calixto Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/8/2012 Biography and Description English Alfredo “Freddy” Calixto belongs to a family who were among the first Puerto Rican families to move to Chicago in the early 1950s. Born in Caguas, Puerto Rico, Mr. Calixto lived through the displacement of Puerto Rican families from La Clark to the Lincoln Park Neighborhood where he grew up. Both of his parents and several of his many siblings became involved in the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María. His father also spent time with the Hacha Viejas (Old Hatchets), a social club that was active in the neighborhood. Mr. Calixto describes struggling with discrimination in Lincoln Park and how these early experiences inspired him to commit himself to advocating for Latino youth. He has served as the Executive Director for Broader Urban Involvement and Leadership Development (BUILD), a non-profit community organization in Chicago that was founded in 1969. He is currently the Vice President for Institutional Advancement at St. Augustine College, the only bilingual institution of higher education in the Midwest. Spanish Alfredo “Freddy: Calixto es parte de la familia quien fueron unos de los primeras familias que se movieron a Chicago en el principio de los 1950s. Nacido en Caguas Puerto Rico, Señor Calixto vivió por el �desplazamiento de las familias Puertorriqueñas de La Clark hacia Lincoln Park, donde creció. Sus padres y la mayoría de sus hermanos fueron parte de la Caballeros de San Juan y Damas de María. Su padre también trabajo con Hacha Viejas, una organización social que era activa en el vecindario. Señor Calixto describe su pelea contra discriminación en Lincoln Park y como esas experiencias lo inspiro a dedicarse a la lucha para los jóvenes Latinos. También a sido parte de la Executive Director for Broader Urban Involvement and Leadership Development (BUILD), una organización sin lucrativa en Chicago que fue creada en 1969. Hoy, Señor Calixto, es el vicepresidente por la Instiutional Advancement en St. Augustine College, que es la única institución bilingüe en el medio oeste de educación mayor. �yl_Calixto_Alfredo ALFREDO CALIXTO: Freddy. Okay, my name is Alfredo Calixto. I go by So, everybody knows me as Freddy Calixto. born in Caguas, Puerto Rico on February 28, 1956. I was And my dad took myself, my older sister, and my mother to the States probably before the end of 1956. brother. [Huiso?]. His name is José Luis Calixto. I had an older We call him And he, for some reason, my dad -- I don’t know if he couldn’t afford everybody, but he left him in Puerto Rico, in Caguas, in Barrio San Salvador. And he ended up staying there, getting raised my grandparents. He never made it with us back to Chicago, where we came from -where we went to, Chicago. The family, as I mentioned, I was [00:01:00] not even one years old before I even landed in Chicago, and my family moved. We lived -- the first place we lived when we were in Chicago -JOSE JIMENEZ: AC: What was your dad and mom’s name? My dad is Luis Calixto Cruz. Jiménez. My mother is Juana [Roldán?] They’re both from Caguas; both born in Caguas, Puerto Rico, from the Barrio San Salvador in Caguas, in Borinquen, Puerto Rico. Anyways, well when we came to Chicago, we went to live in what’s known as Chicago South Side -- currently today, the University of Chicago 1 �property. They -- we used to live on 63rd and Ellis, and that was a primary Puerto Rican community back in those days. A lot of people were living there. I remember living in a very big building with a lot of apartments. [00:02:00] It was like what you would consider a courtyard apartment building. And they were all -- everybody was Puerto Rican there. And there was buildings there. Woodlawn; it was all the way 63rd and Woodlawn. Was That was all where my aunt, we were always there and that was the -all Puerto Rican, the whole community back then. I was there probably till I was about five, maybe five years old. And by the time I was five, we moved, My father moved us, our family, to the north side into what’s known today as Lincoln Park. We moved to Halsted Street. Halsted and Armitage -- Halsted and Willow. We were on And we lived on Halsted Street between North Avenue and Armitage for, I don’t know how many years we lived there. different apartments on that block. We moved to From 1960 till 19-- probably 1970, or ’69 [00:03:00] or ’70, when we moved from that pocket of the neighborhood to another area, in Old Town; to North Avenue and Mohawk there. What I remember, you know, growing up in Lincoln Park, one of the first things was that, you know, being raised in a Puerto Rican home, you know, we spoke Spanish. My parents were, you 2 �know, spoke Spanish. They didn’t know English. And us, as children growing up in the household, we all spoke Spanish ’cause that’s all we knew, you know, till we went to school. My first experience with school in Chicago public schools was Newberry School on Willow, and -- between Orchard and Burling. And I remember slightly, you know, I was six years old when my parents put me in school. didn’t do the five-year-old thing. Commented [SC1]: Spelling corrected They So I was already six years old when I went to Newberry and they put me in first grade. Commented [SC2]: This was spelled wrong And because I was six, I went to first grade and not kindergarten. And to me [00:04:00] it was -- I was traumatized ’cause that’s the first time I heard English. And I was like, “Oh my God, what is this?” You know, I was very, s-- I was crying and scared and all that. But eventually, you know, in the school system, I eventually adopted fairly quickly, I’m assuming. I don’t -- you know, ’cause I know that I stayed in first grade for another year because of the English. I didn’t know English, and so they kept me in first grade for another year till, you know. And I think whatever they did that second year, first grade, it did whatever they wanted to do. ’Cause that’s -- by that time, I started to adapt to the American lifestyle, and then English, and all that. And I went to -- from first grade, I remember goin’ to third grade, not second, 3 �’cause I stayed there twice. And then from third grade, I went to fifth because by third grade, that’s when they had already taken all the Spanish out of me. ’Cause, you know, they -- at Newberury School, they said that it was bad. Spanish was bad, so that’s how we were taught. And so we were, you know, doin’ our [00:05:00] best to get rid of the language in our lives, you know. Not -- my parents, I had still came home and had to talk Spanish to my mom and my dad. But outside the home and the neighborhood -- when I was hangin’ out with the fellas -- the neighborhood or back in school, it was always English. And by the time I got to fifth grade, it was totally English, you know, and I went home and talked English. happen, you know. And that’s what started to When we came from Puerto Rico, it was me and my sister and, as I mentioned, we left a brother in Puerto Rico; so there were three of us. My family is total of 11, so all the other ones were born here in Chicago from -- after me. They were all born in Chicago. And all of ’em -- I think, ex-- yeah, I think most all of ’em. I think my sister, [Migdalia?] was probably born in the South Side -- and Victor -- were at the South Side Cook County Hospital, was the place that my mother went to give birth. All the other ones were born in St. Joseph Hospital [00:06:00] when it used to be on Belden, over there on 4 �Halsted. Hospital. That used to be St. Joseph -- the old St. Joseph That’s where all the other ones were born at. So living in the community -JJ: How was the culture thing between your parents and you, now you’re speaking mainly English and [they’re?] speaking -- AC: Well, I think what it was, it gave us as young -- as kids, we were able to, you know, try to hide things from the parents by using the English language. And the, you know, the parents responded, you know, with their Spanish. And then eventually, you know, throughout the years, they would start to pick up the English language and they start responding in their English -- Spanglish, you know, to us. And the, you know, and they would just say, you know, get upset and all that. So it was a little, I think we used it as a way of getting around certain things in the house. And eventually when you needed to talk English or Spanish, you would have to, you know, they would force it on you. But, what I saw happening to me and a lot of people -[00:07:00] with my friends, and of course all my siblings, ’cause they came after me -- and so they were all English only. They didn’t have Spanish ’cause by the time they came around, they were just speakin’ a lotta English already. My mom was -- and dad were adapting to the English language, so they had more -- or less experience -5 �of exposure to Spanish than I did. So that’s what I think was happening in the household, you know, the... Whenever you wanted to hide something from mom and dad, you used English. knows.” Until finally you started realizing, “Oh man, she You know, ’cause she knew -- then she started getting, you know, becoming aware of things. Our parents started to say, “Well I better learn a little bit.” And they started pickin’ up certain things here and there, so that when you told us -- talked about something, they knew what you were talking about. But not everything, so they - - you were able to get around a lot of the things. And a lot of the culture that was outside the house was completely different, you know. Growing up in the Lincoln Park community, when I lived on Halsted, when I [00:08:00] got to -- I finally -- we moved to Willow, right in front of Newberury School. We used to live at 711 West Willow, right in front of the school. of years. Commented [SC3]: Delete? So we lived there for a lot There was a family that lived up -- we lived in the first floor. Upstairs was the Martinez family, Herbie and his family, you know. And so, that’s when I started to experience the gang culture in the community ’cause, you know, Herbie used to be a Trojan. the Trojans. He was the President of And so his brother and I -- Harry -- we wanted to be junior Trojans and, you know, we were in fifth 6 �grade I think at the time. So we picked up the name and we were, you know, junior Trojans, but not really, you know, not really into the gang [cult?] thing, you know. Just doing it ’cause, you know, we saw it there with them and people in the other blocks, you know. We lived between Burling and Orchard and there were Trojans and there were other gangs in the other areas. And then as you grow, you know I went to -- shortly after that, after s-- I was in Newberry. From Newberry fifth grade, you graduated [00:09:00] from Newberry -- or not graduated, you passed. From fifth grade, you went to sixth. And back then, it was -- you had to go to Arnold Upper Grade Center, which was in Armitage, in Burling. And there, you went for sixth, seventh, and eighth grade before you graduated and went on to high school. So I passed from fifth grade at Newberry and went up to Arnold. cultural shock. And then Arnold was another Because now, you know, growing up in the little pocket neighborhood, you’re meeting other people from other parts of the neighborhood: from Armitage and Sheffield, from Bissell and Armitage, and from Dickens, all meeting up at Arnold. different people. And so there we met a lot of The same kind of thing happened. started picking, you know, everybody picked a group. became somebody. We We We -- I remember we were the Little Red 7 �Devils. Then that’s when I started to see the -- notice the real gang beginnings there. of the neighborhood there. The Latin Kings were part The older guys like the Young Lords, and the Paragons, the Black Eagles were there, [00:10:00] but they were way older there than me. not part of that till later on in years. So I was And then my father moved the family from Willow -JJ: You’re talking about when they were a gang, when the Young Lords were a gang? AC: Right, this was early on, right. 1969. So when I -- we moved in We moved over to North Avenue in the Old Town neighborhood out of the what, you know, we call the Lincoln Park into the Old Town neighborhood by St. Michael’s Church. All through those years, we were members of that church, St. Michael’s. Caballeros San Juan. church. My father was a member of the My mother wasn’t really much into the Think she used to go to the church, but she didn’t join the group because she was always dealing with all the kids, all her own children. But my aunt was real big with the Grupo de María -- I forgot what they called them. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) de María. AC: And so my mother -- my father was a Caballero San Juan and [00:11:00] Tía [Canda?] was with the Grupo de María. And they were both, the two, what we would call a little 8 �fanatic about the religion thing -- the Catholic Church there. And they were always going to retiros and things like that. And the retiros were like reunions for all Puerto Ricans, like from the South Side. ’Cause when we left the South Side, a whole community stayed there. It just moved from 63rd Street to 55th -- 55th and Halsted. And they were there for a lot of years. And my aunt, my father’s sister, she -- I guess she liked the South Side. ’Cause she stayed on the South Side, and eventually moved to 53rd and stayed there for a long time, until finally that whole community changed. And the same thing happened in 63rd, it evolved from Puerto Rican to African American to Black. The same thing happened in 53rd -- on 55th. then eventually, she didn’t come north. Pilsen. She went to She ended up on Western and 22nd Street. was like saying, “Tía, what’s up? And (Spanish).” And I She didn’t wanna move to the North Side and after that move, finally she [00:12:00] ended up in Humboldt Park. You know, but our family was there for a long time, and he was part of the church scene. That seemed to me as a reunion for them, from all over Chicago. They would see each other at these retiros that they would go to and -- so they stayed connected. Another thing that I saw that connect the families from -- and friends from Puerto Rico was the 9 �credit union. They established the Caballeros San Juan as a religious organization of the Catholic Church, but they also, in the ’60s, established a credit union. I think that happened on 55th Street, when they were the community on 55th Street. And, you know, developed an outlet for the Puerto Ricans to be able to go to a bank, try to get loans. Some of them were able to. Some of them were more successful, quicker than others, and so they were able to buy homes and things like that. And start businesses. So there were some Puerto Rican families who owned businesses in our [00:13:00] neighborhood. remember. Mario Rivera had Del Campos, a grocer on Willow and Halsted. Arroyo. The Rivera family, I And then there was another one on Armitage, The Arroyo family, they used to have a restaurant and a liquor store that I remember. businesses were American-owned. Most of the other I don’t think we -- I’m trying to remember -- I don’t know if there were any Blackowned businesses in the neighborhood at the time. don’t remember any. ’Cause I I know we had some Puerto Rican-owned and most the other ones were white-owned. JJ: You mentioned the Arroyo family, the Rivera family. there other families in Lincoln Park? Were Was it a family situation or how do you describe it? AC: Well yeah, I mean... 10 �__: [Your extended?] family? AC: They were families and people you grew up with, you know. Everybody was a different family. As I mentioned earlier, we had a lot of Puerto Ricans there, but in Lincoln Park, me growin’ up, [00:14:00] it was like a -- what you would see -- like a melting pot. Like what they were calling Uptown, the melting pot of Chicago, well we and my -- where I grew up and I went to school in Newberry. school with Puerto Ricans, back then was few. I went to There were, Puerto Ricans the majority as far as the Latinos. And then some other Latinos from Mexico and other Latin American countries, but very few of ’em. Rican -- from Puerto Rico. The majority was Puerto And then there were the white, you know, from Appalachia, like what we would call the hillbilly families around, gypsies they used to be around the neighborhood, and the African American, the Black. had some Asian people. So we had like a mix. We You look at my old pictures from the different grades in St. Michael’s, it was always a mixture. And that was cool for me growin’ up in that area. And having the different exposure to different races. We, you know, you kinda stuck to your own [00:15:00] and that’s the way it flowed, you know. You joined up with whoev-- Puerto Ricans and Blacks with Blacks and whites with whites. And that’s the kinda thing, the 11 �way the neighborhood separated itself later in -- at the later days. JJ: So it kind of separated, like were people mixed or were they kind of sticking together to a few Blacks at at time or how -- AC: Well -- JJ: -- how did you stick? AC: -- it was -- when we were younger, didn’t matter ’cause we were just kids at school. But when we got become teenagers, that’s when you starts choosing sides. And so you -- that’s when I was, you know, talkin’ about getting involved more with the gang culture of the neighborhood. We had gangs in every block. (coughs) Excuse me. had Black gangs. So you Back then, you had Stones and you had Disciples and mostly coming from the Projects, which were right down the street from us, on the Cabrini-Green. On Orchard, we had a guy that was a leader of the Stones living across the street from the Boys Club, but he was good -- cool with all of us. [00:16:00] And then eventually, you know, I was recruited into a gang called the Latin Saints. And that started in eighth grade. You know, from eighth grade on to I think my sophomore year in high school. But there were King-- there were Harrison Gents on Burley. And there were -- and then the rest of 12 �the neighborhoods back going -- Halsted and west of that was Latin Kings, which is the largest gang in the area at the time. JJ: So you were recruited, what do you mean? AC: Well, as I mentioned to you, I had moved from Willow to North Avenue. But I used to come to the -- I consider that my neighborhood -- I used to come to my neighborhood everyday. I used to walk from North Avenue and Mohawk by Larrabee -- walk all the way down back to Orchard and Willow. That’s where I hung out, that was my neighborhood around the Boys and Girls Club in Burling. And I had a friend on Burling, so I would always go to his house. And eventually, I would cross, you know, [00:17:00] the white gang that everybody on that -- on our side that I lived on, was always fighting against, was the CORP. white group that was west of Larrabee. And it was a And so I would go through that, come through the neighborhood, cross Orchard -- which was Latin Saints -- and then into Burley, which was Harrison Gents. And so every time you walk by there, they would always try to find out, you know, were you in a gang? Do you want to be in a gang? And I’d always would say no, you know, just do my thing and go back. And eventually, friends of mine -- they were friends, people that I went to school with in Newberry -- were Latin 13 �Saints. And so they were just -- kept talkin’ to me about joining up with them. And eventually I did. So I decided okay, you know, I told them I didn’t wanna get beat up, you know, how you get initiated. up.” I said, “I ain’t getting beat And they said, “Oh, you don’t have to. that to you.” So they didn’t. We won’t do So I joined them. This was like around 1969. JJ: Okay, and [00:18:00] the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María, what were some of the activities that they were doing at that time? AC: Kinda going back. Well for us, and this I didn’t realize this until years later, of course, was we were members of St. Michael’s as I mentioned earlier. church. But our masses were never in the main You know, I didn’t realize that till later on I said, “Good Lord.” They had a little hall on the side of the main church, and that’s where we used to have, like, we, you know, it’s like fun for us as little kids. We would go there the activities -- the hall had a bowling alley and things like that. But, you know, as you -- as I grew up and thought about I said, “Oh my God.” You know, they really discriminated against us ’cause they didn’t even give us the opportunity to have mass in the chapel in the main church. They said, no you guys the -- you Latinos have to have mass in El Hall, we used to call it “El Hall” 14 �-- the little hall next to the main church. where all the activities were there. mass. And that’s You know, you go to The Puerto Rican masses were you had some -- a mass [00:19:00] and afterwards you socialized. And so that was the thing they did it all at El Hall, the hall. And then the group, the Caballeros San Juan, they would, you know, they had the deacons. They’d go to -- they would start recruiting for people to go to the schools, whatever. I don’t know what they call it, school theology, whatever. But to go to school to become a deacon. So they were starting to recruit ’cause, you know, very few priests were from Latin American countries. They were always American priests that learned Spanish as they became priests. And so we always had a priest that wasn’t Latino, of course, that gave mass. And you had the assistance of a person of a Puerto Rican background. JJ: And the mass was in the hall. AC: The masses were always held for us -- were always in the hall -- the small little hall inside. But the activities of the Caballeros San Juan was they were do, you know. Their activities, I remember dances -- a lot of dances, a lot of parties that they would throw in the [00:20:00] hall there. And they would, I’m assuming, raising money for the church, ’cause I didn’t think they would doing anything 15 �particularly for themselves. But they had -- and they would sell, you know, we would have dances regularly and there would be charges -- they would charge for the dance. You had to buy your beverages and everything there. And the money would go to St. Michael’s. You know, so throughout the years, they did that. I mean, all the years I remember, they were always -- the masses were always held in the little room -- the little hall. And they were in Commented [SC4]: Should this be cleaned up? the main church throughout the years. JJ: And you were also into the school. You were going to the school? AC: Well, by the time I started going to the school, that was the changing of the neighborhood there, you know, the gentrification of the neighborhood. You know, I went to St. Michael’s in ’69 in eighth grade. So, by the time I graduated high school, ’73, we had gentrification in the whole Lincoln Park area. And so, I believe -- [00:21:00] JJ: You’re talking about three- or four-year time period, or? AC: Well, the four years of me graduating from high school, you know, goin’ to high school in ’69. I think I started high school in September ’69, and I graduated in May of ’73. And so there was a complete change goin’ on in the whole area. Not just there, ’cause St. Michael’s was in Old Town so it’s a little different than the old neighborhood on 16 �Halsted and Armitage and Willow where I grew up at. So there was a shift in the whole community there. JJ: What kind -- I mean, can you describe what-- how that kind of started and what kind of shift was going on, or? AC: Well, people were -- one of the things that I noticed, you know, was a lot of us were not homeowners. renting. Everybody was And so that’s how they would -- you would decide where to live: where you could afford to pay the rent. And so families were moving around ’cause of the landlord said, “Okay, I’m raising the rent [00:22:00] (audio cuts out) find another place.” And I mentioned earlier for my family, we were a big family: my mother, my dad and they had 11 -- or 10 children here, then one that stayed in PR. So every time they moved, they had a big group that they had to move to. And so they had to find big apartment buildings, that’s why we were on North Avenue. On North Avenue we had a real big apartment that everybody fit -- we all fit there. And that was on a big building as well, multi-unit, but everybody there was a Puerto Rican family as well, living there. family upstairs. The Peña family was there, the Roya So we had, you know, that was still the neighborhood there, part of North Avenue, probably from Sedgwick down to Halsted. You know, all Latinos up -- mainly Puerto Ricans, up there. But that was the thing 17 �that I saw, when growing up and experiencing the gentrification. They called it urban renewal. And then in -- I went through my high school years not -- I wasn’t into any of [00:23:00] that stuff. ’Cause I was mainly into, you know, just goin’ to school and messin’ around and, you know, hangin’ out, doing things that we did. that people were moving. But I noticed You know, people were moving, we were getting -- on the block that I hung out the most on was Orchard by Willow between North and Willow. (coughs) Excuse me. And by ’73, the Boys Club was the anchor building on the corner, and it was empty from there all the way to North Avenue. you know. They knocked down all the buildings, We were like, “Oh my God.” They were, you know, we used to do things -- crazy things in those buildings when they were emptied and still around, but eventually they started knockin’ ’em down, so they had all this vacant land on that one side of Orchard. intact. The other side stayed All the three-story buildings were still there and eventually what happened. lot of that property. made some big bucks. The Boys and Girls club owned a They sold it, you know, some people It was [00:24:00] kinda illegal because they were on the board of the Boys Club and just couldn’t have do-- it was illegal for them to do that. But they did make some dollars in the sales of that property. 18 �And that eventually turned out to be townhomes. Which today they’re still townhomes in that whole area from where the Boys Club building is at, all the way south to North Avenue. All townhomes. that I saw. So those were the kind of changes A lot of empty buildings, a lot of families moving west, you know. I didn’t learn about the west neighborhoods -- West Side to, you know, I graduated from high school. Well there in my high school years, we used to get in our car and drive up to Humboldt Park, you know. We used to, when we had friends that moved out there, so we’d come visit them. And so we were doing that a lot. Driving around Clemente High School. neighborhoods on Rockwell. Going into My family had family on Rockwell and North Avenue you know. So they were there the Jiménez and Luis Jiménez had owned the property there. [00:25:00] The Valdez family owned a building there on Rockwell. TAnd so we -- they were like anchored there for a lot of years. them. And so we would always come and visit So that was my back-and-forth tracking from Lincoln Park to Humboldt Park and so forth there during that time. Well, I mentioned I went to St. Michael’s I graduated in ’73. So in ’73, I was already a father, you know. My girlfriend was pregnant, we had our son and he was born in March of 1974. And, so of course, the thing was, you know, 19 �you gotta get married, you gotta get a job, that kind of thing. You gotta support your family now, right? wasn’t into that. So, I I was into hangin’ out with the guys and doin’ my thing, you know. (coughs) Excuse me. And so I didn’t take it serious for a while, you know, we would go out as a group. All the guys would go out lookin’ for work and we end up spending the day getting, you know, getting high, drinking, and come back later at night, in the evening. We didn’t find any work. And so eventually you got, you know her family started [00:26:00] getting, you know laying the law down. Well you need to find a job, you gotta support, you’re gonna have a child, this and that. And so they found me a job. They got me a job at Greyhound and that lasted for a little while. JJ: I lost that job. Your family got you a job? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) AC: No her family. My girlfriend’s family ended up getting me a job. JJ: What kind of work did you finally do when you s--? AC: Well that, Greyhound was unloading the bus. You know, so I did that for a little while, but I, you know, I didn’t last long. So I kept goin’ around with friends lookin’ for jobs. And back then, I went to St. Michael’s [a lot?]. Most of -- all my friends went to Waller. And Waller had a 20 �program where after your junior year, you went to school only half the day. Half the day in this classroom, the other half you went to work in the factory. ’Cause back then Lincoln Park all through Clybourn was all factories. So there were plenty of factories all around there, places to work. So everybody went to work after 12 o’clock. went to school, and then you shot to your job. You And it was part of your credits for school, but it was [00:27:00] labor for the companies that were all around Lincoln Park. It And it went -- it extended into Lakeview, those factories. And a friend of mine’s, Herc Nelson, he used to work at this big plant on Diversey and Wolcott, that -Stewart-Warner. Was humongous, big old plant. And they made the gaskets that they use in a lot of automobiles. And so he used to work there during the two years of his junior and senior year. And so when we were looking for work, he said let’s go back there. And then since they saw that he used to work there, they said, “Oh yeah.” hired him right away. They They didn’t wanna hire me ’cause they -- you know, I had never worked in anywhere. I did a lot -- my jobs were in shoe stores during high school. Throughout high school, I worked in shoe stores and clothing stores, but never in a factory. So when they hired Nelson, you know, they didn’t say -- they weren’t 21 �gonna hire me. And then, you know, Nelson -- we called him Herc ’cause he was, you know, a [00:28:00] big guy. The Rosario -- Nelson Rosario fam-- the Rosario mem-- Eddie Commented [SC5]: Delete? Rosario, you know, they were all -- all of them were big, stocky guys, so. He told ’em, “Hey, what about my friend?” You know, with his deep voice, and the lady said, “Okay, we’ll hire him, too.” You know. So they gave me a job, so that was my first experience of workin’ in a factory. I said, you know, they gave me a broom. And And stewar-- as I mentioned, they made a press that just presses a gasket, and the remainders of the gasket fall to the floor. My job was to keep sweeping’ that access [sic]] part that can fall into the floor. “What? And I said, “What?” Sweepin’ this eight hours?” was in August. I thought to myself, And, you know, this The summer of ’74 in August. And -- no, the summer of ’73 ’cause I had just graduated from high school. And I started, you know, I said, “My God,” you know, I kept thinking to myself, “I can’t do this. can’t, you know, I can’t do this.” You know. remembered about a organization called ASPIRA. I And I had [00:29:00] And they -- I knew that they told me they help people get into school -- to college. ’Cause I know back in high school, we tried to get college into the counselor’s head, and they would tell us, “Oh, no, you directly to the 22 �factories on Clybourn. You know. You can’t go to college. No way.” So that wasn’t even our radar, but I had it in my mind that I did want to do that. So as I was sweepin’ around, I kept thinkin’ about it, thinkin’ about it. Then two hours later, I threw the broom out and said, “Hell, I can’t do this.” And I left. Milwaukee Avenue. school.” So I went and found ASPIRA on And I just told ’em, “Hey I wanna go to And so that same day, I think it was the last day of registration at Northeastern. They got me to Northeastern, they helped me with financial aid papers, and I started school probably the next day or two days later. Classes started at Northeastern so I began college at Northeastern in the fall of ’73. well. And that was a shock as You know, ’cause wanting to go to school and [00:30:00] being prepared to go to school is two different things. And I couldn’t, you know, I wasn’t prepared through all my grade school and high school years. was educated for college. factories, you know. I never I was educated to go work in the And so, when I wa-- we were at Northeastern, we the same thing that we did everywhere else. We clicked. out and we partied. studying. All the Puerto Ricans clicked. We hung You know, we did that, we did a little So we were there for a couple years, we were collecting our financial aid checks. I had a wife and a 23 �son, you know, so that covered expenses and everything. And every summer I did a job. and I would not work. I would not get work-study Should -- I wouldn’t go to school in the summer so I would get a job as a college student summer job. So I did a couple different things throughout those summers. I went to factories on Clybourn. summer in the factory at Clybourn. Grant Hospital buffing floors. CTA bus. I worked one One summer, I worked at And then one summer I drove And then, you know, I remember [00:31:00] getting a college work-study grant and seeing BUILD -- an organization called BUILD on the sheet. And I remember that brought me back my memories to back when I was, you know, like eighth grade, sixth, seventh, eighth, freshman. Hanging out on Orchard and Willow a guy named Lacey Smith. He was a BUILD worker that used to come around and, you know, I didn’t know what he was doing. curious about it. I was always But he would get us together, the guys from Orchard and Willow, and he would take us to CabriniGreen to play baseball or basketball. We’d go to the YMCA on Larrabee and North and play basketball. They would -- he would bring those guys to the Boys Club to play ball there. And we would do field trips. We would go different places - the racetracks, Soldiers Field [sic], things like that. But I was always wondering, “Why, what was he 24 �doing?” I remember going to St. Michael’s and we did some basketball at St. Michael’s and sitting in the bleachers, they’re watching it from far. ’Cause I would say, “Wow what’s this guy up to, [00:32:00] man? He’s got Stones over here, Kings over here, Saints over here. doin’?” What’s he You know, I was always curious about that. So anyways, I remembered it really well when I saw it on the work-study list. And I told him I wanted to work there. And so they said okay, but that wasn’t my first job. gave me -- assigned me Big Brothers Big Sisters. They I did that, and then I had a friend that was working at BUILD so I told him, “Hey, I wanna work at BUILD, let them know.” And eventually I did get a phone call from a guy, Hank Bach, one of the founders of BUILD. Called me up and said, “Hey, I hear you wanna work for us.” So he said, “Come on over, we could start this weekend.” know, the weekend was camp. And I was like, you They were goin’ to Camp Channing, Michigan. And I said, I told him, “Whoa, whoa, this weekend camp?. Wait, no I’m married, I got a son. wife and a son.” He said, “Bring ’em with you.” was my first experience with BUILD. Channing for the weekend, and it baptized by fire. A So that I went to Camp I was like -- I would call ’Cause we went to camp where they had brought like 75 different gang members from [00:33:00] all 25 �over the North Side. You know, Cabrini-Green, the Latin Eagles from Addison, all the guys from Armitage and Halsted around there, and all of the Orchard and Will-- everybody was there. And it was pretty wild, you know. Wild experience ’cause it was -- everybody wanted to goof off and have fun, of course. So they did their own thing, but eventually that weekend I learned what BUILD was all about. You know, bringing people together to get to know each other on a different level, so that they didn’t have to beat each other up, or kill each other, or whatever it would be. And so that was my first beginnings with the organization. That was in ’76. I started working during my school semesters, like fall and spring. there and then get -- and then when I didn’t have work- study I would get a summer job. in the fall again. You know, then come back And I did that for a while until ’79. Then ’79 they hired me full time. years. I would work And I stayed there 30 From ’79 to 2009 did a lot of [00:34:00] diff-- all the different opportunities that they had there for me. worked on the prevention program. I I think I began working as a prevention staff, working with the -- doing drug awareness in schools. with kids after school. And then doin’ sports activities work with gang youths. And did that. Did intervention Same thing, sports, jobs, things 26 �like that, GED programs, and reportings. You know, did a lot of the administration work, then became supervi-- you know did all the positions at BUILD. Executive Director. Till ’94 became the And I was there for 15 years at the Executive Director till I left in 2009. So that’s my experience with work-JJ: Where are you at now? AC: I’m at St. Augustine College. I came here in September of 2009 and the transition for me was educational. ’Cause, as I mentioned, 30 years at the organization doing street intervention and [00:35:00] prevention work with kids; high risk youth and gang-involved and not gang-involved, and working with parents a lot. That exposed me to community work ’cause I [had done?] a lot of work with parents. And it reminded me, ’cause, you know, my goal -- our goal was to go back to your own neighborhood and work with the young people coming up behind you, so that they didn’t have to experience the things that you went through, and avoid some of the negative things that you did or that was around ’em. And so when I went back to the neighborhood and started working with the short-- younger guys in the neighborhood you know, gettin’ them into sports and things like that. And, you know, I remember I said, “My God.” You know, this was like in the late ’70s and early ’80s, and there was a 27 �major gang -- spike in gang violence. And throughout, you know, the whole area of Lincoln Park there, was -- we had a lot of that goin’ on. Not as, you know -- my years were not involved in that situation. banging. We didn’t do a lot of gang There was no guns pulled out on people like that, you know, I had a [00:36:00] couple experiences, but not much. And then when I, you know, the first shooting on Orchard and Willow was one of the [Velez?] family. Which is another large, Puerto Rican family that grew up in the neighborhood. But one of the Velez kids got lit up on -- he shot on right in front of the Boys Club on Orchard and Willow. And that was like our first experience of anybody getting shot there -- from our group, that was growing up from the Latin Saints there. On -- the Harrison Gents had some issues because they were -- they used to fight the Kings. And they had a couple shootings between them on there. But that was, you know, not compared to other neighborhoods, like what was happening in Humboldt Park and West Town at the time. But it reminded me, ’cause, you know, in the media, what you started to see was, where are the parents of these kids? putting -- blaming fingers. Everybody you know, kept And I was saying, “Wait, my mother,” as I mentioned, we talked about the cultural differences. When I left my house, it was -- I was a 28 �different person. I walked different, you know. It was like, you know, Freddy Calixto from the streets, [00:37:00] you know, walked right out the door. door, you were somebody else. When you went out the When you came into the house, you were, you know, Freddy Calixto, el hijo de Luis y de Juana. And you had to, you know, to act like that. you know, you had So they never knew anything about the gang [involvement?], because that wasn’t part of their culture. You know, they -- my father worked, and then his thing was, you know, la familia. You know, hangin’ out with his -- with the family that would visit, or he would go visit. And my mother was at home all the time, you know, taking care of kids. And from the -- and for dad was the church, like a lot of the Caballeros de San Juan stuff that -- back and forth. exposure. But never -- they never had Lot of the Puerto Rican families never had the exposure to how we grew up in the streets, and what we were doing the streets, until, for a lot of people, was too late. So my mom never knew. never knew.” I realized that, I said, “Mom I remember goin’ to -- comin’ out of school at St. Michael’s and I had a Saints sweater on. My -- three of us, David, and Wilfred all had Saints sweaters on. We walked into the house during lunch, you know, [00:38:00] and then my mother said, “Hey, what’s that?” And, you 29 �know, I looked at her and I said, “Ah, it’s from school. My school sweater.” She goes, “Oh.” another question about it. that. You know, never And you know, so I remember And I said to, you know, “Wait a minute.” “Where are the parents?” this stuff. They don’t know anything about And so I, you know, I started developing an awareness program. parents. You know, Eventually became gang awareness for And we started teaching the -- goin’ into schools and talking to parents of the children and saying, “Look, this is -- you guys need to learn this. on the streets.” This what’s going And we started teachin’ them about all this: the gang structures, and colors, and who’s out there, and where they hang out. know that. And the idea was so that they can And if they saw their kids wearing, you know, black and gold, or black and red, black and green, they would know, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, that’s -- let’s stop this right now.” ’Cause some kids were asking their parents to buy them these clothes, and they were doing it, you know. And back then, allowing them to put the laces in the shoes, and the parents were buying it for the kids, ’cause they didn’t know. So this educational [00:39:00] program was very helpful for a lot of parents. And it helped them, ’cause you could -- the way we presented it was, you could stop the young kid from joining and getting in too deep 30 �into the gang. But it would be a lot harder to get ’em out, once they were in. And so idea was to get them before and -- with the prevention program -- and with the parent education program. JJ: So you had a lot of parents involved, or (inaudible)? AC: Parents from all over. It started out in the neighborhood, so we were working with parents in the neighborhoods that we worked in, like in Lincoln Park. Lakeview. We were also in We were back in West Town and Humboldt Park. So we started going into all the schools, ’cause that’s where, you know, parents were at. And we would develop workshops for parents at -- through schools, churches, ’cause a lot of church groups, block clubs, you know, where everybody started; once they found out about it, everybody was looking for it. wasn’t available. They needed that information ’cause it It wasn’t nowhere. putting it out there. it. So we started The police department picked up on They started doing their own prevention program. [00:40:00] And they started, -- they had it, they -- we partnered with them, because they had the graphics, you know. Because of crime scenes, there was always a photograph taken, so they had graphic scenes. The States Attorney’s Office did their own presentation for gang awareness for parents. But they had, you know, graphic 31 �scenes of people being shot, laying in the streets. And they had statistics that they could talk -- give us about, how many shootings, how many murders, how many arrests, and all that stuff that we incorporated to our workshops. And our workshops were from the social work perspective on how we could help you, or your son, or your daughter. For them, it was, you know, lettin’ ’em know, this the problem. We come out here, we’re gonna lock you up, that kind of thing. So a little different perspective. But it was, we were part of them ’cause they had the good information that we could use for our our presentations. So, yeah, we had a lot of groups, a lot of parents. JJ: Now talkin’ about perspectives, right around that same time the Young Lords are [00:41:00] transforming through the gang. You knew them when they were a gang. AC: Right. JJ: And they kinda just jumped [in it?] from the gang into like a political type of group and that. AC: How did you see that? Well, my exposure was the church, you know. The church and the park on Armitage and Halsted -- the People’s Park, and the church on Dayton, you know, ’cause that was the Latin Kings, that was their turf. And we used to walk by there and hang out with them once in a while. something would happen. Every so often, And, you know, it’s -- at Waller 32 �would -- between them, and there would be beefs and -- but, you know, once in a while we were hang out -- go out on Armitage and hang out. then the church. And I remember hanging out there, And you know what was really -- didn’t know much what’s going on here. And that’s why like when I first realized, “Oh, this is somethin’ going on with the Young Lords, and they took over this church, and this is People’s Park.” And I said, “Oh, wow.” interesting, you know. know. It was very This is goin’ on, and then, you So it was like, for me, was like, [00:42:00] just see the beginnings of the exposure to it. Later on, I was older. JJ: How old were you at that time? AC: This -- I was still in high school, you know. And then when I got out of high school, when I, you know, learned more about it and got a little more involved, I remember getting (pauses) the, I don’t know what year it was on Wilton. You had the office on Wilton. That’s where I got -- I came -- I volunteered when you were running for all the men in the area. volunteered. And we were, you know, so I I worked in there, in the office for a while. And hangin’ out with the guys from the neighborhood, they had Eagles there hangin’ out with them for a while, so I did that and so forth. But my years at Northeastern was 33 �like an awakening for me, because I learned about the Puerto Rican culture. You know, as I mentioned to you very early on in this discussion, they took the Spanish out of me by third grade. So for me, when I went to you know, I didn’t know about Puerto Rico, I didn’t know about, you know, nothing about my culture, my history. [00:43:00] knew was that it was bad. thing to be speaking. All I Spanish was a bad wanted to be American. You didn’t want to do that. You But I never felt American, you know, ’cause we always had somebody that told us we weren’t Americans, you know. But when I went to Northeastern, we - - I was exposed to, you know, protests. Puerto Ricans were protesting. Rican studies. You know, the They didn’t have Puerto We wanted -- they, you know, so I joined the Union for Puerto Rican Students. So I was a member of the Union for Puerto Rican Students. And we, you know, we did our thing. We partied a lot, but we go to meetings and hear from some of the leaders, and we were present whenever they said, “Let’s take over this and that.” And so we did a lot of sit-ins, and we took over the President’s office a few times. And we demanded, you know, we wanted Puerto Rican studies. We wanted José López come and become a professor, and so forth, and we wanted El Centro to be established for the Latino community. And all those things 34 �took sitting in their office and not moving until they decided to make it happen. So I got my exposure to the political [00:44:00] (audio cuts out) and then learning more about the Young Lords through that. And that’s when I went out and did some volunteer work in the Wilton office, things like that. JJ: Okay. (pauses) __: AC: Pause it, yeah. So, one of the things that -- when you go back to the urban renewal or urban removal, however you want to call it. It had effect on a lot of things, on the family that lived in the different apartments there. And as I mentioned earlier, there were very few owners. The ones that did own, they really, you know, were ripped off -- basically ripped off because they were selling their homes for eight thousand dollars. You know, this is a community where, you know, you can go that same home that they bought for 8,000 dollars, they probably sold it for 500,000 later on, you know. But these people were getting great deals. If they got eight or 10 grand for a home, they felt like they were millionaires and moving off to Logan Square. [00:45:00] And becoming the first home homeowners in the West neighborhood -- Logan Square, Humboldt Park -- buying little two flats and things like that. But in the 35 �neighborhoods, what was happening was they were, you know, you saw that they, you know, people moving away and they, you know, the gang structure that was, that was there. what was happening, it was being exported. that it stopped. But So it wasn’t You know, the gangs didn’t ended because they changed the neighborhood. They just moved them, and they moved them from the area to area. went, that’s where the gangs were. So wherever they So you saw the spike. There was a lot of gang activity in Lincoln Park. Then you saw a spike of gang activity in West Town, Wicker Park. Because that’s where a lot of families moved to. And then you saw a lotta spike in gang activity in Humboldt Park, ’cause a lot of families moved there. move was west, west, west, west. Lincoln Park. ’Cause the whole And they cleaned out No more gangs in Lincoln Park, you know, ’cause they moved everybody out. But the gangs didn’t stop, they just moved [00:46:00] into another neighborhood, wherever there was a low-income community, where people paid low rents, the gangs were a subculture of that. You know for us, it was band together to defend your neighborhood against other people, other groups. The same thing started happening when people -- when Latinos were moving west. They were confronted with the, you know, the 36 �white guys -- the white gangs: the Gaylords, the PVCs. And they had to -JJ: To banding together to fight other white gangs or Latino gangs or what(inaudible)? AC: Yeah, mainly it was other la-- first, it was the other Commented [SC6]: Delete? white gangs, because they didn’t, you know, it was a racial thing. They didn’t like spics, they just said it straight out, you know, they would come and tell you, you know, “F you, spic.” You know, so you have to be -- either you have to run or you have to defend it. And what started happening, people were saying, “No, we’re gonna click -- “ whoever was there, you know, if it was the Gents, or whoever it was, if it was Latin Kings. You joined up and you you said, “No. numbers.” You got to get it. Now, you know, we’re [00:47:00] And that’s what started happening. You know, the Latinos started outnumbering the other gangs. And so they were no longer, after so many years, there were no longer white gangs to fight against, and they started turning on each other. And all the Latino gangs started fighting with one another, and that’s what we still have today, you know. Latino gangs, fighting Latino gangs. And then the mixture of people that -- it didn’t matter, you know, Lat-- if you were Black, Latin, if you join, you 37 �join. Whatever gang you join. Then it wasn’t so much more racial breakdowns of what gang you joined. JJ: So you’re saying that a lot of these gangs that were pushed out of Lincoln Park went into other neighborhoods. And did they join up with other gangs, start new gangs, how did that work? AC: Well, the Latin Kings, it was really easy for them, because there was Latin Kings already in the West Side. Latin Kings had already started in Humboldt Park, and they -- so they were just Kings moving from neighborhood to neighborhood. Just -- and they, you know, they knew [00:48:00] each other, they hung out. deal. So it was no big Latin Saints, for us, that was the end of them. There were no more Latin Saints. I didn’t even realize -- we didn’t even realize that there was an old Latin Saint gang on the South Side, and I didn’t know that till I used to visit my cousins on 55th Street. At 56th and Peoria. And there were some Latin Souls around there, and they would all say, “I’m gonna tell them you’re a Latin Saint.” You know, that what my cousins used to threaten me with. And I said, you know, “They don’t know me from the Latin Saints.” ’Cause I thought they were talkin’ about us. I didn’t realize that on 47th Street there was Latin Saints there from the ’60s. So there, they were there. They’re 38 �still around. But the Latin Saints from Lincoln Park, they just stopped existing after the move. Everybody moved out of there. The older guys went to Vietnam. Our group graduate. I went You know, we to high s-- to college. all went our own ways, and that was it for that. Younger guys [00:49:00] that were in that neighborhood, moved west and they joined other gangs. You know, that’s what they did. JJ: You mentioned Vietnam. Did that do anything to the gangs when a lot of the soldiers came back to the -AC: Well, from what I saw, the people that I knew that got involved in that, it was a way out. You know, a lotta people went there because they were facing the judge, and the judge told ’em it’s either army or jail. them, of course, chose the army. And a lot of So that’s how a lot of people took off, you know, went to the army. ’Cause they were getting caught up and goin’ in front of a judge and getting the choice. So a lot of them did do that. for a lot of people, it worked. It helped them. I think Because they went there, they got their GEDs, they came back, and they came back to work. Those were the first guys you saw working at Peoples Gas, at Commonwealth Edison, and things like that. But for a lot of guys that went to Vietnam, they got stuck. They got stuck on the heroin. I saw my 39 �brother-in-law, his cousin, friends, everybody that was out there. They all came back with habits. [00:50:00] You know, so they all came back with heroin habits, and they just festered in the neighborhood. Then for us, in our neighborhood around Armitage and Halsted, were a lot of people strung out on heroin. And that whole area, man, that whole neighborhood, they all -- the AIDS virus hit real hard. A lot of brothers died of AIDS ’cause they, you know, they didn’t know any different. They were sharing needles, and a lot of them caught AIDS, and a lot of ’em died. And I would, you know, I would get phone calls every so often and every -- this one guy would call me. time I got a call from him, I knew what it was. telling me so-and-so just died. just droppin’. Every He was And one by one they were And a lot of brothers from our -- that area just died of AIDS. JJ: What happened to a lot of the adults? I mean, what did they move to or what happened? AC: Well, as I mentioned earlier, it was a westward move. So from Lincoln Park -- from, you know, anywhere from Larrabee, Orchard, Halsted, Bissell, Armitage, in all that area. If you were one of the lucky ones that were -- that [00:51:00] owned a home and sold it, you bought -- you were one of the first families that were homeowners in Humboldt 40 �Park and Logan Square, or even Wicker Park, West Town. most families, as I said, rent. But So they move in to a places where they could rent apartments and so that’s what happened. They moved in, I said they first moved into Wicker Park. That was the first area west, and then further west to -- a little further west on the other side of Western to Humboldt Park, and then that’s where people... One of the things I did notice that the urban removal process started -- kinda stopped in Humboldt Park. It took a lotta years before it picked up any momentum. And I noticed, because I was at Northeastern at the time, and I did a project on the whole urban removal, you know, for one of my classes. And I was shooting film of Cabrini- Green, seeing the changes that was happening in Cabrini. I was going back to Lincoln Park and showing all the changes and [00:52:00] the new neighborhoods, the new buildings, the new neighbors. And then coming -- driving into Humboldt Park and showing what I mentioned, that I saw on Orchard, empty lots well on Rockwell. From Rockwell, North Avenue all the way down, they were empty lots ’cause they were burning buildings every night. There was a building on fire, and they were knocking ’em down. And there was plants, the same plants that they did on Lincoln Park were there in Humboldt Park. They were planning to do some 41 �building, you know, high-end buildings there, but they had resistance. The community banded together and resisted that whole move. There was an, or there is an organization there called Bickerdike Redevelopment Corporation, and they came together, and they worked on it, and they stopped it. They said, “No, this ain’t gonna be, you know, high-end living here.” housing. You know, we -- they fought for low-income And they were able to build all low-income housing in all those empty lots. And so that’s what stopped the urban removal process there in Humboldt Park. [00:53:00] It didn’t stop it in Wicker Park. Park, they took over. skyrocketed. rent. In Wicker They, you know, the rent The buildings you couldn’t buy, you couldn’t Unless, you know, you were a white-collar worker making big bucks. And if you didn’t own a home, and you know, people that own homes that had to give -- move out because of taxes. The ones that were able to stay and pay the taxes, they stayed and they kept their homes. was like, I count ’em on one hand. But that You know, some of the families that I know that lived on Bell Street, you know they had two, three houses on the block. else, I don’t think there were any. stopped it. It stopped there. And then anywhere But Humboldt Park And that’s why the Puerto Rican community was there for so long in Humboldt Park for 42 �many, many years, until the ’90s. seeing the change again. started to happen. west again. And so you started The whole new gentrification And, you know, people started moving And then you look at the numbers, the between 10 years, and 10 years, and 10 years later. Everything kept shifting, what further, further west from Humboldt Park. It had stopped for 20 years, [00:54:00] and all of a sudden, it started to see the shift. People were moving out of Humboldt Park and ending up in Belmont Cragin now, where there’s a whole new population of Latinos. The thing -- another big change was the influx of Latin American countries. People from Latin American countries, not -- Puerto Ricans were no longer the majority of Latinos. the numbers of Latinos, they were the minority. the numbers of Puerto Ricans went down. And So then You know, families moving away, a lot of families moving to Florida, moving out to suburbs, moving further west to other communities. So we still have the Puerto Rican community Humboldt Park, but the numbers are very low. The majority of the Latinos that live in Humboldt Park are not Puerto Rican, you know. JJ: (inaudible) AC: They’re Mexicanos. So, and then we had an increase of Latinos from different Latin American countries, you know. So that’s what we have currently and further west. 43 �JJ: Now, what about (pauses) because Bickerdike has done a lot of good work in terms of [00:55:00] getting low-income housing in Humboldt Park. Definitely fought well, [resisted?] well, but the Young Lords also resisted in Lincoln Park, probably because of their status. you see that? How did I mean, did you see that they were just completely defeated, or did they help to bring out any type of awareness, or how did you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) that whole movement? AC: Well, the movement-- JJ: Did you agree with it, or maybe you didn’t agree with it? AC: -- well, as I mentioned to you earlier, it was early -- I was younger at the time, so I didn’t know a lot of the -what was happening when it was happening. My exposure and my education came later, after I got into Northeastern and started learning about the political agenda that was out there for the Puerto Rican community. But I saw it as an people that didn’t live it, ’cause I could have shared the experience of living it. I learn-- even though I didn’t know at the time, was living it, I could share the experience. I said, “Oh, I saw this. I remember this.” And it was an awareness that, [00:56:00] like any other movement that threatens the, you know, the normal -- what they consider normal, like the city hall considered normal, 44 �you know, there was a threat to that. You know, they saw that, and I saw -- they used their tactics to break it up. You know, to create chaos among the group. Because, you know, I saw the chaos that was happening among the group, within the people. The Latino brothers that were organizing around the Young Lords organization as the political group. You know, they were -- they had a good -- they said, “Alright, we got a -- we got something to, you know, that we want to be part of, and everything.” And eventually, because of that, you know, they were, you know, things started to happen with -- and that started to, you know. For the community, it was good. JJ: What do you mean things were happening? (inaudible). AC: Well, you know, things started happening. They started seeing, you know, the conflict within the group itself, you know, people breaking off. disagreed. They didn’t, disagr-- they just [00:57:00] The drug festered. A lot of those guys that I talked about dying on heroin, they were all part of it. And they started, you know, they got hit with the heroin. Heroin came out of nowhere, just -- it became available to everybody. And a lot of people chose it. They got involved and got hooked on heroin. So we, you know, a lotta... 45 �JJ: So did you see that as a way of somebody trying to stop (inaudible)? AC: That was exactly it, ’cause they infiltrated. You know, you had people that were, you know, saying they were part of this group, but they were part of -- they weren’t part of the group. YThey were -- you could tell they were in there for another purpose. firsthand there. the heroin. And I don’t know, I wasn’t I wasn’t there that I saw the bring in But you know, out of nowhere, the community became a heroin haven. There was so much heroin. Everybody -- so many people were on it, and that’s why, I said earlier, so many died. of AIDS epidemic. saw. Because they were, you know, But that was a [00:58:00] tactic that I And everybody realized, how do we, you know, how do we stop this movement? Because the Young Lords were a movement that created a movement, and that’s what happened. They were able to, what I think was something that was able to happen in Humboldt Park. If it would have been for the Young Lord movement that occurred in Lincoln Park and continue to struggle throughout the years in Humboldt Park, would have been pretty difficult to do what they did. You know, they were not able -- they were able to do that because they saw the experience that occurred in Lincoln Park. They saw the experience that occurred in Wicker 46 �Park, and they had the example to look back to the Young Lord movement and say, “Wait a minute. Bottom line, it was resistance. We got to resist.” “We have to resist. just can’t sit here and let this happen.” happened. We And that’s what You know, they were able to put a stop to the gentrification in Humboldt Park for, like I said, almost two decades, until it started to fester again, to where it’s at today. JJ: Okay, anything -- [00:59:00] that was good (inaudible; laughter). Anything else that maybe we need to add, that you think that we need to -- hold on one second. (adjusts camera) AC: Well, going back to the BUILD organization and my involvement, as I mentioned to you, I kinda saw as a youngster, you know, somebody out there working. But, you know, that history goes way back to the Young Lords and other all the older groups. ’Cause they had some street workers that were part of another program before BUILD, called the Detached Workers Program, that was out of the YMCA. There was a -- on Division and [Action?]. There used to be a Division Street Y, and they they got funding from the federal government. And this was something happening throughout the city of Chicago. ’Cause on the South Side, it was happening with the Blackstone Rangers, 47 �social service organizations getting funding to work with them. And in our neighborhood, it was the YMCA got the funding to do a program, and they called it the Detached Workers ’cause it was on the streets. Streetwork, not in the building. ’em to the building. streets.” [01:00:00] They said, “Don’t bring Just work with them out in the So they had workers out there in Lincoln Park. They were working with Lords, the Black Eagles, and the different groups there. And, like most programs, the Detached Workers, because it was a solely federal funded program, whenever the people sitting around the desk in Washington said, “Eh, we don’t want to fund that anymore, you know. Gangs is not a big issue for us anymore in our - - in those neighborhoods, we don’t wanna. something else.” Let’s do So they pulled the funding. said, “No more funding, no more program.” The YMCA And that’s how Bill got started, because Bob Jemilo and Hank Bach were running the Detached Workers Program out of the Division Street Y. And they said, “Wait a minute, we got a good thing going.” They knew what that program was working. It was getting a lot of the guys -- primarily guys and but it was women as well -- out of the violence and gangs and putting them into college. ’Cause they had a connection with the city college that was right down -- back then it 48 �was right down the street on Milwaukee Avenue, Mayfair College. [01:01:00] And they were just putting guys through GED, through BUILD, and right into city colleges. And, you know, getting -- that’s how people were, you know, movin’ away from the poverty and the things they had going, that gang structure was all about. “Hey, I got some college in me. And they were able to say, Now I can get a job. can go to ComEd, I can go to Peoples Gas. I I can get some - - I can get a job that can I can support my family with.” So that’s how the BUILD model came out. They took it from the Y. They started it. They got funding from the Board of Directors of the YMCA, the people -- the CEOs of ComEd, Marshall Field, Signal Corporation. They, you know, Bob Jemilo was pretty, you know, sharp guy. So he kinda, you know, maintained a good relationship with those kind of people there. And he went to directly to them, said, “I need you to give me money to start to keep this program going. I’m gonna start my own organization. call it BUILD.” I’m gonna You know, they, they came up with the name in a process, but that’s how they started BUILD. JJ: Do you remember similar tactics that they used to get to the street [01:02:00] gang members? AC: It was the same model. The same model it was, you know, you put somebody out in the neighborhood where they grew 49 �up, you know. So the detached workers had guys like Lacey and [Mingo?] that were part of the, you know, they grew up in that, in the neighborhood of Lincoln Park, so they were the ones out there. They started, you know, [droppin’ center?] on Halsted Street. earlier? The one that you mentioned Street. That was on that -- Mingo was running on Halsted I didn’t hang out there. You know, I was born Orchard at that time. JJ: The Concerned Puerto Rican -- AC: The Concerned Puerto Rican Youth Program there. But it was, you know, through the Detached Workers Program that he was able to do that. And then they all became staff of BUILD after ’69 you know. I that I learned. But it was the same tactics that Was, you know, you go out through the neighborhood where you grew up, and you work with the guys, ’cause they know you. They know oh, Freddy used to be a Saint here, before that. So, you know, I’m able to go and say okay, I want to, you know, you use sports as a tool. It’s always -- the tool was sports. softball league. together. I’m gonna run a I need you guys to get [01:03:00] And then you will get somebody in leadership to say, “Okay, I need you to be the team captain and get me all the names.” develop a roster. And you start getting the names, and you So that roster becomes your membership 50 �list, and you start developing on the list. need to tackle? leader here? Who do you You know, I gotta -- let’s see. Who’s the I gotta make sure I get this guy on my side. And you go, you start workin’ with that individual, and you get that guy into school, or you get that guy a job. everybody else wants to do the same thing. And And that’s the tactic that you use, and that’s the model that we used. that was the approach through the Detached Workers. So It was the model that was used at BUILD in -- throughout the years. It’s changed throughout the years, but that’s, you know, the main idea was that. JJ: Did you guys do (inaudible) take ’em all out in the city at all, or? AC: Every fall was a camp. when I first started. The one I told you about where, My first day at BUILD was, you know, Friday, take off on a bus and go to camp couple hours away to Michigan, Camp Channing. year. That was the model. They had it same place every You take ’em out because, you know, you take ’em [01:04:00] to the woods, they’re not the same people there on the streets. different person. Then it was a completely And so they are experiencing that. And then they’re, you know, they don’t have to front, you know. That, you know, they could get along with, you know, Latin Kings can get along with Latin Eagles. You know, but in 51 �the neighborhoods they can’t. could. But in Camp Channing, they They could sleep together in the same bunk room. They could get up and eat breakfast in the same bunk room. And those kind of things develop relationships that I saw firsthand how they saved lives. You know, ’cause you get caught in the streets, and I know I seen people get caught. Like Robert Gonzalez was one of my staff at BUILD, would always tell a story, says, “Man.” ’Cause he went to Lakeview High School, and they -- he was a Latin Eagle. The Latin Kings were their rival. on Ashland by Irving Park. were about to do him in. him from camp. And the Kings caught him And they were, you know, they And then they said -- they knew They knew him from softball. They said, “Oh, that’s Robert Gonzalez, that’s Bulldog. He’s cool. Let him go.” stuff. [01:05:00] They let him go and that kind of That’s the way, that kind of thing. see how that worked, because they weren’t. People didn’t They weren’t really there to see how that kinda, you know, how that saved the person’s life or from a beating or something. But being able to mix gangs and guys together in sports or in trips like a weekend at camp. The weekend at camp is one of the best, ’cause they -- you got 48 hours with these guys together. They get to know each other for real. So when they come back to the streets, you know, they think 52 �twice before they gonna, you know, get on jump on each other, shoot at each other, anything like that. So that does help a little bit. JJ: (inaudible) is there anything else? Otherwise [this?] should (inaudible). AC: That’s it. I think that’s good. END OF VIDEO FILE 53 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b965189f21db9beb38c4d4b0ad06ba4c.mp4 410ac00d330e9fe49872194892e3ab83 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Alfredo Calixto vídeo entrevista y trancripción Descripción Spanish language Description entry Alfredo “Freddy: Calixto es parte de la familia quien fueron unos de los primeras familias que se movieron a Chicago en el principio de los 1950s. Nacido en Caguas Puerto Rico, Señor Calixto vivió por el desplazamiento de las familias Puertorriqueñas de La Clark hacia Lincoln Park, donde creció. Sus padres y la mayoría de sus hermanos fueron parte de la Caballeros de San Juan y Damas de María. Su padre también trabajo con Hacha Viejas, una organización social que era activa en el vecindario. Señor Calixto describe su pelea contra discriminación en Lincoln Park y como esas experiencias lo inspiro a dedicarse a la lucha para los jóvenes Latinos. También a sido parte de la Executive Director for Broader Urban Involvement and Leadership Development (BUILD), una organización sin lucrativa en Chicago que fue creada en 1969. Hoy, Señor Calixto, es el vicepresidente por la Instiutional Advancement en St. Augustine College, que es la única institución bilingüe en el medio oeste de educación mayor. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Juventud--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Calixto_Alfredo Title A name given to the resource Alfredo Calixto video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Calixto, Alfredo Description An account of the resource Alfredo “Freddy” Calixto and his family were among the first Puerto Rican families to move to Chicago in the early 1950s. Born in Caguas, Puerto Rico, Mr. Calixto lived through the displacement of Puerto Rican families from La Clark to the Lincoln Park Neighborhood where he grew up. Mr. Calixto describes struggling with discrimination in Lincoln Park and how these early experiences inspired him to commit himself to advocating for Latino youth. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Youth--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-08 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1c7a1da85f30f7327cde8d474975921.pdf a47ea6ce4c617fad544286bc3a5a38bf PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Rafael Cancel-Miranda Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/19/2012 Runtime: 01:21:00 Biography and Description Oral history of Rafael Cancel-Miranda, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on November 19, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa308b4d7daa1377b12a5f514985d656.mp4 a922972dba8f3aad0bd4213e876e67e4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Rafael Cancel-Miranda vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Rafael Cancel-Miranda, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 11/19/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Cancel-Miranda_Rafael Title A name given to the resource Rafael Cancel-Miranda video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cancel-Miranda, Rafael Description An account of the resource Oral history of Rafael Cancel-Miranda, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 11/19/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-19 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0fffd70b37a708c2081d38994f966f45.pdf c4233264a9a32b5e0af873b4cd5b55d5 PDF Text Text <)12> FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTAC'l's AMGELA LiltD ,n. 1540 SUNDAY, JANUAl\Y 5, 197S 549-9457 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JOSE CHA-CHA JIMENEZ RECEIVES 46th WARD t.P.o. ALDERMAMIC BNDORSEME'N'l' Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez, 46th Ward Aldersnanie candidate, was endoraed today by the 46th Ward I.P.o. (Independent Precinct ~anization}. Jimenez received all votes east., the two opposing candidates who also sought the endoremnent received none. Jimenez addreeeed a crowd of 200 at t.he open House 4520 N. Beacon Street. I.P.o. ffleeting held at Hull In hie presentation Jimenet: said, •.ey stabilizing this ccmmunity, we can give the people political pc,Miltr, stop the rise in crime and organiEe the youth -- our future here -- 110 that they beCOllle preductive citizens in our society.• Jimenez pledged to be a full-time Aldenaan with a full-ti.Me Aldermanic service office. -City services are a right no matter how you vote.• He stresa~d that since June his campaign service staff had taken action on over 4,000 Comlllllflity requests for assistance including public aid, social security, legal, emergency food, medical and housing problems. Other issues that Jimenez stressed and said he would fight for are: l. Monies available through the new Housing and Camnunity Developnent kt should be used, according to federal guidelines, primarily for low and moderate inc~ housing. 2. He outlined programs to protect existing low and moderate income housing including a Landlord Security Deposit ordinance to help assure a quick repair of - MORE - �- 2 - health and safety hazards in apartments. 3. by He emphasized the protection of neighborhoods against monopolization developers like Bill Thompson and Rubloff through such measures as Community Zoning Boards and all out efforts to stop redlining in the Ward. 4. Jimenez called for protection of small landlords, owners of moderate and low incane housing, who are often unduly harassed out of existance by city inspectors and courts while slumlords go virtually untouched, Jimenez• program included special assistance to these small landlor.ds with special assistance in taking advantage of rent subsidy and other programs. s. Jimenez called for a witness protection and immunity program to get to the bottcm of the arson in the area. 6. JimeneE emphasized the fight for programs to keep existing jobs!!!, the city and reattract lost industry. 7. On education: special concern for education in the Ward with stress on hiring more teachers' aides from the communityr closer unity between the Teachers' Union and the community; the establishment of a multi-cultural library in the Ward; and decentralization of the School Board providing more community control. a. Four 111ajor prografflS for senior citizens were outlined, including a Senior Citizens Protection program which is badly needed in the Ward. 9. Programs for police accountability to the camnunity to provide better relations and the develop!llent of programs of employment, community participation and job training for our ycuth were explained. Jimenez, analyzing the incumbent•s weak Mrgin in the last election, noted that he had lost the East side of the Ward (along Lake Shore Drive) and that "his strongholds are now our strongholds. In this COllling election I know for a faet that the machine will not win in the poor white, Black and Latino sections of tbe Ward. with your help - they will not win at all." - MOM! - And �This is a winning carapaign. we•ve registered .' 2, .-00 people to vote, and by January 28th we plan to reach our goal of registering 5,000 people.• described his extensive volunteer precinct structure: Jimenez "We have 951 of our precincts covered, and s01ne with as nia.ny as 10 t~ 12 workers.• After the I.P.o. endorsement was announced, the session ended with a standing ovation and the crowd broke into Jimenez• campaign song, The D!lwning of a - 30 - BACJCGROUNt> INPORMATI01' ATTACHBD New Day. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_1975-01-05_aldermanic-press-release Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975-01-05 Title A name given to the resource Press Release: Aldermanic Endorsment Description An account of the resource Press release from Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez about his endorsement for alderman by the 46th Ward I.P.O. (Independent Precinct Organization). Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Young Lords (Organization) History Puerto Rican Civil rights Puerto Rican Social conditions Chicago (Ill.) Civil rights movements Community activists Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65) Relation A related resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park interviews Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1970s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3672f9c067170e533957d31a4cbbfe7.pdf f15d2489cc1f1ff6f14613fdd4e76f08 PDF Text Text Tuesday January 14, 1975 Dear Friends and Neighbors, Every four years, right around election time, politicians seem to produce a few services and more promises. We, who live around Wilton and Grace, know how long we have waited fo~ a stop sign on our corner. It is our children who have had to dodge cars, and our seniors who have had to hope some kind driver will stop and le~ them cross. It is unjust for us to only receive city services around election time. We have had to suffer due to this type of politician for too long. from a full-time Alderman. We need full-tJme service For this reason, we feel that we want to share with you some points of information regarding our neighborhood and the stop sign. We would first like to inform you about our organizational work. Since June our campaign staffs have assisted over 1,000 people with problems of public aid and social security; over 600 with legal assistance often providing lawyers at little or no cost; over 1,400 with emergency food orders; over 600 with transportation; advocacy and follow-up around medical problems; over 150 with various complaints to city agencies; over 400 with housing problems of which 100 have been relocated in this ward. In early June, before Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez announced his candidacy, we went to the Alderman's office to inquire about putting stop signs on the corner of Wilton and Grace. There had already been numerous accidents; and after our requisition was brushed aside, the accidents continued. �You may remember the lady who was hit while riding a bicycle, or the car that spun around and hit a pedestrian, or possibly you can remember other'incidents. Actually, obtaining a stop sign is not difficult, es- pecially if your Alderman happens to be on the Traf1ic Committee as our opponent is. the Traffic Committee. veying team. The process is one of contacting The committee then sends out a sur- After they report back, the Traffic Committee then decides if that corner needs a stop sign or not. The present Alderman did sign his name authorizing a stop sign, but it actually has been the community fighting for four years that gave us the stop sign on Wilton and Grace. Our opponent has always proven to us that only when it is in his interest does he pay any attention at all to our community. (Such as a kite flying ordinance he tried to pass, only because the kites had his name on it. ) And now the st.op sign finally arrives close to election time. We believe that the community will decide the future of our neighborhood on February 25th. If by chance you have not had the opportunity to get to know us yet or our candidate, perhaps we will be seeing you at one of the many coffees your neighbors are having for Cha-Cha. For Further Information Feel Free to Contact Us Citizens for 549-9457 Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_1975-01-14_en-aldermanic-campaign-ltr Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975-01-14 Title A name given to the resource José Cha-Cha Jiménez Campaign Letter Description An account of the resource Letter to friends and neighbors about José Cha-Cha Jiménez's campaign for 46th Ward Alderman. Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Young Lords (Organization) History Puerto Rican Civil rights Puerto Rican Social conditions Chicago (Ill.) Civil rights movements Community activists Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65) Relation A related resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park interviews Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1970s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/da3d978564f05a1c42a9d2cc6631029b.pdf 748b8b29e08c84f29b1aad29b50b28e7 PDF Text Text FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: ANGELA LIND TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 1975 477-1540 JOSE JIMENEZ, 46th WARD ALDER.MANIC CANDIDATE, PUBLISHES COMPLETE LIST OF CAMPAIGN INCOME AND EXPENSES: CALLS ON REGULARS TO DO SAME. Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez, 46th Ward Aldermanic candidate, issued the following statement this morning. "In the last months of this campaign I have been viciously and slanderously attacked by my opponent, the present alderman of the 46th ward. Among other charges, he has stated to voters and to reporters that the fi.nancing of my campaign came from 'suspicious' sources. His campaign workers have even said that my campaign was finance d by the sale of drugs. I am here today to put an end to these vicious rumors by making a complete disclosure of my campaign finances, as I promised when my candidacy was announced, and to call upon my opponent to do the same. "I have filed my financial statements with the Board of Elections, which according to Illinois State law, all candidates must do. At the same time, this law only requires a disclosure of finances beginning January 1, 1975. Candidates may have gathered in many hidde n contributions before that date and not be required legally to disclose them. Therefore I am making a full disclosure of!.!! campaign contributions and expenditures since the beginning of my campaign. "I am proud of the spirit of sacrifice that has made this campaign possible. When we announced in June and even months prior to that, ordinary people, factory workers and residents of this community had pooled their salaries to live more cheaply, - more - �and put money away in savings for this campaign. sold at up to Sl a button. Thousands of buttons have been Many small contribut1.ons have come from concerned people throuohout the ward and the city. Artists and printers have donated their skills and many are alAo working in the precincts. Commur1ity organi.zations have allowed t he campaiqn te1 use their mimeographing equipment and typewriters. It has been and is a real community based campaign that through hard work and sacrifice has become an effective and professionally run campaign. All campaiqn staff are volunteer; there are no paid staff nor public relations consultants. "I am calling on my opponent to disclose ~ finances as fully as I have: to open ~p the records of the 46th ward regular organization and disclose his backers to the public, I am calling also for an end to rumors and mudslinging on the part of his campaign and a return to a campaign based on the issues that affect the people of our ward. "We are confident of victory, because of the support of the people and because of the commitment and self-sacrifice of our campaign workers." SEE ATTACJ~D FINANCIAL INFORMATION �NEWS FROM • • • Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez, 3500 N. Broadway, Chicago, Ill. 60657 ADDITIONAL MATERIAIS, SEE ACCOMPANYING RELEASE FEBRUARY 11, 1975 For More Information, Please Contact: Angela Lind 477-1540 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JOSE JIMENEZ, 46th WARD ALDERMANIC CANDIDATE, PUBLISHES COMPLETE LIST OF CAMPAIGN INCOME AND EXPENSES; 1. Following is a summary of income and expenditures of this campaign for the period August, 1974 through February 8, 1975 by category. A. Income 1. 2. 3. 4. TOTAL: B. 5~ 6. 7. a. 9. 10. 11. 12. TOTAL: c. $5,509.62 1,956.61 210.77 1,165.21 8,842.21 - general contributions through sale of campaign buttons collections at parties & meetings loans - printing paper & other office materials postage rent (includes security deposit) utilities (includes phone deposits) buttons rental of billboard space radio time lumber & other conatruction supplies typesetting & art supplies Expenditures 1. 2. 3. 4. $2,916.75 360.89 1,025.00 1,125.00 824.46 255.00 648.00 120.00 66.22 132.87 234.52 35.88 7,744.59 food miscellaneous Balance Total Income Total Expenditures BALANCE FORWARD 2. CALLS ON REGULARS TO DO SAME. 8,842.21 7,744.59 1,097.62 On Deposit cash On Hand BALANCE FORWARD + 1,000.00 97.62 1,097.62 Following is a list of income for the period August, 1974 through February 8, 1975 by month. A. August, 1974 Button Sales John Miscunski Pierre LeBreton TOTAL 294.50 250.00 100.00 644.50 - MORE - �p. 2 of supplement CITIZENS FOR JOSE CHA-CHA JIMBNEZ SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION (Continued) February 11, 1975 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JIMENEZ CAMPAIGN FINANCIAL INFORMATION (continued) 2. List of income by month (continued) B. Septernber, 1974 NONE c. October, 1974 NON£ o. November, 1974 Button Sales Fat Kaplan Robert Howard Cesaro. Ballaftos John Walsh Elizabeth White Sol Golden Faith Schumaker Susan Rosenbloom Nick Norris John Rossen Steven Gold Adeline Kashmere Paul Siegel James Ratner Thomas Lindsey TOTAL E. 332 .11 224.00 20.00 30.00 10.00 10.00 10.00 s.oo 250.00 10.00 15.00 250.00 2.40 126.72 64.00 75.00 1,434.23 Decetllber, 1974 Collections Button Sales Catherine Archibald Karen Richardson Candy Espada Gloria Perez David Ballestas Robin Kaufman G. Marie Leaner Manuel Barbosa Joan Wallace J. Hart Marc Kaplan c. M:::Millan Faith Schumacker Bob Gibson John Sales 44. 77 487.00 250.00 20.00 2.00 10.00 10.00 s.oo 5.00 15.00 250.00 250.00 250.00 1.00 11.00 20.00 10.00 - MORE - �p. ! ~~BaUMY l l , 1975 c,~ supplement SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION (Continued) for IMMEDIATE RELEASE JIMENEZ CAMPAIGN FINANCIAL INFORMATION (continued) 2. List of income by month (continued) E. December, 1974 (continued) Chris Colon Eugene Eulingberg Barbara Lowenstein Sidney Lens Susan Avila Paul Terkel E. Cose Leroi Jones Zonzie Lorraine Blue Linda Turner Frederick Spaulding John Block R. Bady Ben Rodriguez F. 25.00 25.00 s.oo 10.00 2.00 s.oo .so s.oo 10.00 TOTAL 15.00 s.oo 25 . 00 so .oo 25 .0C s.oo __ 10 .00 2 ,4 18.27 650. 00 3,068 . 27 300.00 200.00 10.00 25.00 January, 1975 Collections Benefits Jeri Riddle Frank Oliver Ida Terkel Rose Ratner Sl!muel Betances H.s. Morrison Edwin Vagas Alberto Mata Margaret Schmidt Richard Jackson Toby Prinz Henrietta Moore Herman Gruber Louise Chapman G. Carmello Rodr ig ue2 Nanette Rutherfor d Pat Hughes Sy lvia Ste ··art Vera Lea f Pearl Max Torres Milton Certer SUBTOTAL Loan - Campaign for Commun ity Contro l 10.00 10.00 Carl MacKi Arnie O!-:an"': Richard C,:fr1en George Atk ins Carol A. ~ola Hawk Paul Moreno Frank & Vivian Archer Jorge Betluchamp Pe ul & Heather B::,ct: Miguel Chevere Steve Romero Randy Salt z Cami lle Nash SUBTOTAL Loan - J ~mes Chaprran TOTAL 22.00 93.00 20.00 25.00 75.00 15.00 75.00 1.00 20.00 20.00 10.00 10.00 5.00 rn.oo 10.00 20.00 1.00 5.00 20<' ,v 250 . 00 ·2 .co .! 5 .oo :.s .oo 10. 00 20 .00 1s.00 5 . U( 360.0C 1 20 . 00 1,519 .oo 515.21 2,0 34.21 February 1st through 8th, 1975 A. Kautt James Chapman Fred Walker Ellis Lev in Collections 51.00 Buttons 843.00 Higni thio Lucas 10.00 Shirley Clark 5.00 Carlos Delgado s.oo Joe Giola 25.00 Hilda Frontaney 2.00 w.H. Ferry & Carol Bernstein Ferry 500.00 Jack Spiegel 30.00 Laurie & Pierre LeBretonlS.00 K. Hummer 5 . 00 Roger s ~.enkiew:i.e~ John Bleck Melvin Thurman Carmen Velez Lambert King Norman Palmer Thomas Shefcik Pat - MORE - & Tom Timm s .oo 10.00 5.00 1 0 . 00 5 . 00 10 .C'} s.oo 10.00 so.co 25.00 10.00 25.00 1, 6 0 1 . 00 �CITIZENS FOR JOSE CHA-CHA JIMENEZ p. 4 of FEBRUARY 11, 1975 supplement SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION (Continued) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JIMENEZ CAMPAIGN FINANCIAL INFORMATION (continued) 3. Following is a list of expenditures for the period August, 1974 through February 8 , 1975 by month. A. August, 1974 End of Month Balance: 644.50 120.00 - radio time 255.00 - buttons 7.06 End of Month Balance: 382.06 262.44 End of Month Balance: 262.44 NONE B. September, 1974 WEOC Artesian Specialties Bank Charges 'l'OTAL: c. $ October, 1974 NONE D. November, 1974 Kenny Paper Co. Metro Media Progress Press Globe Posters A & E Rubber Stamp Wagner Litho Midwest Printing Kenny Paper Co. u.s. Post Office 224.00 648.00 110.00 557.50 2.40 196.00 64.00 126.72 75.00 2,003.62 - paper rental of 12 large billboards for 3 monthA •· printing printing rubber stamp printing printing paper postage End of Month Balance: -306.95 Computype 50.00 Tony Karnezis 375.00 Tony Karnezis 375.00 Waqner Litho 227.00 Illinois Bell Telephone 78.25 Ill. Bell Tel. 200.00 Wagner Litho 92.00 u.s. Post Office 300.00 Bank Charges 2.30 W.gner Litho 29.50 .u.s. Post Office 650.00 TOTAL: 2,379 .OS - typesetting security deposit rent printing advance payment phone deposit printing postage TOTAL E. F. December, 1974 - printing - postage End of Month Balance: January, 1975 Computype Miscellaneous 75.00 4.20 4.15 7.87 - typesetting office supplies lumber art supplies - more - 382.27 �CITIZENS FOR JOSE CHA-CHA JIMENEZ p. 5 of supplement FEBRUARY SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION (continued) Fl:>R IMMEDIATE RELEASE JIMENEZ CAMPAIGN FINANCIAL INFORMATION 3. 11, 1975 (continued) List of expenditures by month (continued) F. January, 1975 (continued) Tony Karnez i8 Bank Adjustment Berland Printing Ill. Bell Telephone Berland Printing TOTAL G. 26 • 54 201.24 31.00 375.00 20.25 360.00 515.21 120.00 1,740.46 - food for warkers ' part,, for voter registrution day phone rent bounced check printing phones printing End of Month Baliince: 676.02 :food February 1st through 8th, 1975 so.co - Office L SUBTOTAL Cash carried forward Berland Printing Bank Charges Berland Printing TOTAL 25.34 3.57 6.74 13.13 48.78 - see breakdown below lumber & varnish office supplies food lumber for signs 1.22 _/ 870.75 - printing 6.27 290.00 - printing 23.60 - lumber for signs 1,239.40 End of Period Balance: - 30 - 1,097.62 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_1975-02-11_aldermanic-press-release Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975-02-11 Title A name given to the resource José Cha-Cha Jiménez Campaign Finance Disclosure Description An account of the resource Press release from Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez regarding Jiménez' campaign finance disclosure and calls for opponents to do the same. Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Young Lords (Organization) History Puerto Rican Civil rights Puerto Rican Social conditions Chicago (Ill.) Civil rights movements Community activists Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65) Relation A related resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park interviews Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1970s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5508d1e6e026f312d4c937d1d50f75b3.pdf 7cec31f6d542b657544a48f116c9049f PDF Text Text JOSE CHA-CHA JIMENEZ Candidate for Alderman 46th Ward will Speak on Tues. Feb. 11th at Stockton School 4420 N. Beacon St SPONSORED BY STOCKTON SCHOOL PARENT ADVISORY COUNCIL at 8pm come, listen . .. discuss the issues in our community Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez 3500 N. Broadway, Chicago, Ill. 60657 334-9556 549-9457 477-1540 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_1975-02-11_en-aldermanic-poster Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975-02-11 Title A name given to the resource Jiménez Campaign Flyer Description An account of the resource Campaign flyer for José Cha-Cha Jiménez speaking engagement on February 11, 1975, in English. Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Young Lords (Organization) History Puerto Rican Civil rights Puerto Rican Social conditions Chicago (Ill.) Civil rights movements Community activists Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65) Relation A related resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park interviews Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1970s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/419151e8b750660a852d26e46d13b001.pdf 0ec313775c897ed2608fe2ecbe5041c1 PDF Text Text JOSE CHA-CHA JIMENEZ Candiclato por Alderman Ward · . 46 Hablarli el Martes ·11 de Feb. en La Escuela Stockton 4420 N. Beacon St PATROCINAOO POR EL CONSEJO DE PADRES DE LA ESCUELA STOCKTON a las 8pm venga, escuche y discuta pr ...as de nuestra comunidad Ciudadanos para Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez 3500 N. Broadway, Chicago, Ill. 60657 334-9556 549-9457 477 -1540 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_1975-02-11_sp-aldermanic-poster Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975-02-11 Title A name given to the resource Jiménez Campaign Flyer Description An account of the resource Campaign flyer for José Cha-Cha Jiménez speaking engagement on February 11, 1975, in Spanish. Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Young Lords (Organization) History Puerto Rican Civil rights Puerto Rican Social conditions Chicago (Ill.) Civil rights movements Community activists Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65) Relation A related resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park interviews Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource spa Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1970s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44815d18940306396c758bf10cb1d7ec.pdf af4171d75c6ae044be1367717acb6294 PDF Text Text NOVEMBER 18, 197 4 FROM: Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez 1046 w. Wilson Ave. - - Suite 202 FOR FURTHER I1'.'!f'ORMATION PLEASE CONTACT: Angela Lind 549-9457 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JOSE JIMENEZ CALLS FOR CITY AND STATE ACTION ON HOUSING CRISIS IN TESTIMONY BEFORE STATE SPANISH SPEAKING STUDY COMMISSION J ose Cha-Cha J i menez, Aldermanic candidate in the 46th ward, present ed today to the State's Spanish Speaking Peoples Study commission a series of recommendations for immediate action by state and city government to help stabilize communities throughout Chicago which are currently facing a major housing crisis. Tl:ie two strongest recommenda- tions called for careful monitoring and immediate action to insure that the millions of newly released federal Housing and Community Developnent Act dollars flowing into the city and state actually be used for low and moderate income housing. Also outlined was a new City Council ordinance which would require that landlords place security deposits with the city to be used for emergency repair of serious health and safety hazards. In an interview after his tes t imony, Jimenez emphasized that over 40 million dollars ( only a first i nstallment) is corning into the city right away. Documenting the city's past practices of using federal dollars to reloca te slums instead of rehabilit ating them, Jimenez demanded full citizen participation in planning how the new money will be spent. He warned that without strong action by the City Council and state government Chicagoans will be faced by another decade of deteriorating and unstable neighborhoods. "Just last year, in 1973, twice as many housing Ltnits were destroyed as were built here in the city of Chicago. many of those new units were luxury apartments. M () R F. And Where is the low and �page 2 moderate income housing?" In another important recommendation to the Commission. Jimenez testified ''We have an enormous problem in this city of serious safety and health hazards in apartment buildings which the city is all too often powerless to correct. To help eliminate these dangers, I am proposing a City Council ordinance that would require landlords to deposit funds with the city as security to be used for emergency repairs in cases when owners do not take prompt action to correct these conditions on their own. This ordinance is designed to remove major safety violations and help control the further deterioration of so many of our homes." Interest less a small administrative fee would be returned to the landlords on their security deposits of $100 per unit with a maximum limit of $20,000 per owner. Jimenez urged the Commission to devise comparabie legislation at the state level. He also asked the Commission to support local efforts for citizen control of zoning --land use-- such as the Community Zoning Board Ordinance now before the City Council. And he pointed to Rep. Joe Lundy's House Bill 1345 now pending in Springfield as an important step in safeguarding the interests of the majority of urban residents who are apartment renters. Jimenez' recommendations came after a vivid description of the history of the Latino community's long struggle for decent housing and stable neighborhoods. ''We must be allowed to contribute ideas and participate actively at every level of government •••• we desperately need and want stable communities." 30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_1975-11-18_aldermanic-press-release Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975-11-18 Title A name given to the resource Press Release: Housing Crisis Description An account of the resource "Jose Jimenez calls for city and state action on housing crisis in testimony before State Spanish Speaking Study Commission," press release of Citizens for Jose Cha-Cha Jimenez. Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Young Lords (Organization) History Puerto Rican Civil rights Puerto Rican Social conditions Chicago (Ill.) Civil rights movements Community activists Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65) Relation A related resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park interviews Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1970s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a05b6eddc79ddb4bd5138a5920b49c4b.pdf 2bc0b99b61201a8ac73fd08b4774a6b5 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Marie Merrill Ramirez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/16/2012 Biography and Description English Marie Merrill Ramirez was a Young Lord in the 1970s in Milwaukee, Wisconsin where she worked closely with Chapter leader and Minister of Education, Dr. Luis “Tony” Baez. The Milwaukee Chapter worked within the university (UM) but primarily focused its organizing efforts in the community around deplorable housing conditions and discrimination, youth support and development, and bilingual education. In 1969, she and a group drove from Milwaukee to New York City to attend a major gathering for Puerto Rican self-determination and connected with other travelers in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood, at the Young Lords’ People’s Church headquarters. Ms. Ramirez is currently living back in Mayaguez, where she is involved with Minh (Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano) defending organizing rights of People, especially the workers, who she feels is the main force capable of making true change. They formed their group May 6, 2004 out of two branches of the P.S.P. ( Puerto Rican Socialist Party). The Hostosianos want to make Puerto Rico a free sovereign and independent nation. Minh members organize for a better education, health, culture, jobs and housing. And they work hard to uplift activists’ awareness of the conditions. They strongly feel that all social forces must unite, if they are to bring about any change. �Ms. Ramirez and many others participated in the fight to evict the United States Navy from Vieques, in defense of the environment, in the battle against Superpuerto, against the exploitation of mines in the mountainous center of the Island, and in the struggle to free the political prisoners. During the Vieques camp occupations, she wrote in blogs and reported about the U.S. military bombings of the Puerto Rican Island. Then she wrote about the victory of the campers to force the United States Military to leave Vieques. She continues to report that the struggle continues to get the U.S. to clean up their lands and to finance health programs for Puerto Ricans dying of diseases, related to the Navy’s military contaminations. Ms. Ramirez helped to organize a Peace March and a 24 hour vigil in front of Filiberto Ojeda’s house at Hormigueros, Puerto Rico, where the F.B.I. traveled from Atlanta, Georgia and shot and killed the Freedom Fighter. She has supported the struggle for the release of the political prisoners, including Oscar López Rivera. In 2010, she joined with sports athletes, artists, lawyers, medics, journalists, teachers, motivational speakers, and students to welcome and support all athletes (especially the Cuban) athletes at the Caribbean and Central American Games in Mayagüez. Even more recently, she hosted La Tertulia, a special event for the Young Lords. It was also organized in her hometown of Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. Spanish Marie Merrill Ramirez a trabajado como activista para la comunidad y la sección de Young Lords en Milwaukee por mucho tiempo. Ayudo con los problemas de la vecindario en el norte y el sur de la cuidad, enfocándose en estabilizando educación bilingüe en las escuelas. Ahora vive en Mayagüez, Puerto Rico donde sigue advocando para la autodeterminación de Puertorriqueños. Durante la huelga de estudiantes en 2010-2011, que fue la huelga mas larga y grande en la historia de Puerto Rico, Marie Ramirez tomo parte y trabajo con otros en coaliciones de uniones de trabajo, profesores, estudiantes, y activistas dentro de Puerto Rico. El gobierno tuvo que dejar la tarifa que iba doblar el costo de atender la universidad. Pero la victoria más significante fue que le movimiento de estudiantes forzó que el gobierno se sentara en la mesa de negaciones. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b9bf367f7f9579c5b5e5430b9ee5e661.mp4 d1b2949fa7ff9c3e0390b52cae696e27 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eldelmira Cruz vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Cruz_Eldermina Title A name given to the resource Eldelmira Cruz video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cruz, Eldelmira Description An account of the resource Eldelmira Cruz is from San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico. She migrated to the Chicago Lincoln Park neighborhood in 1969 and lived right by the People’s Church. Her memories of her early days in Chicago include the work the Young Lords were doing as they grew into a human rights movement. Ms. Cruz recalls the fight in the courts for the Free Community Day Care Center, the Free Breakfast for Children Program, and the Ramón Emeterio Betances Free Health Care Clinic. She and her children also used these resources. Ms. Cruz describes a culture shock as she says she grew up all her life in the countryside in Puerto Rico. Ms. Cruz participated and volunteered in the Young Lords People’s Church. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9cb448f171337692a0da6e3eadd6e6a3.pdf 697dfb952be3a4e459cc23961e3a99ca PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Primitivo Cruz Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/27/2012 Biography and Description Primitivo Cruz is a Young Lord at heart who studied at De Paul University. He has researched and written several poems and papers on the Young Lords. Mr. Cruz performed several of his poems and songs at the Young Lords 40th Anniversary, celebrating the official founding of the Young Lords on September 23, 1968. Most of his work is political by nature, focusing on the Puerto Rican experience, the right to Puerto Rican self-determination, as well as the rights of new immigrants. He work celebrates the efforts of many different leaders and movements. Mr. Cruz is well-known across Chicago and beyond as an artist, writer, and activist.In 2011, Mr. Cruz was involved in the Occupy Wall Street or Chicago Occupation demonstrations. He discusses this work, as well as that of his wife, Diana Cruz, who is an actress in the Vida Bella Ensemble, a writer in the Neighborhood Writing Alliance, and a member of the Chicago Puerto Rican Community Chorus. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you can give me your name and where you were born? PRIMITIVO CRUZ: Okay, sure. Primitivo Cruz is my name and I was born in Chicago, Illinois back in 1977. JJ: What month? PC: July. JJ: July, 1977. PC: Yeah, July 10th, 1977 to be exact, yeah. JJ: Okay. And your parents, when did they first come to Chicago? PC: Yeah, my dad came... JJ: And their names (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PC: Sure. My dad is also named Primitivo Cruz and he came to Chicago back in 1967 and my mom (Spanish) [Beba Ramos?] came in 19, I believe it was 1974, [00:01:00] yeah. JJ: And so, what town are they from in Puerto Rico and where did they come? PC: My father’s from a town called Las Piedras, which is like on the northeast side of the island and my mom is from Peñuelas which is like southwest, it’s right next to Ponce. JJ: Okay. (audio cuts out) PC: Okay. So, I have a brother and his name is Jose Cruz and then I have a sister from my father’s previous marriage and her name is [Marta Hinojosa?], so yeah. 1 �JJ: Okay. So, you grew up in -- your father came to what neighborhood first? [00:02:00] PC: When my father came to Chicago, he lived in the Lakeview area by Wrigley Field. Yeah, so... JJ: What street did he live on? PC: Cornelia and Rita. JJ: And Rita? PC: Yeah. And that’s where -- my uncle lived there first, so he... JJ: What was your uncle’s name? PC: Jose Manuel Cruz. And he still lives and he no longer lives in Chicago, he lives in Las Piedras again. Yeah, so when my father first came, he met his first wife and they had a child and then they separated. And then shortly after that, that’s when he met my mom. [00:03:00] JJ: What kinda work did he do when he first came? PC: My dad was a factory welder, he used to work for this company called Production Metal Company, yeah. And so, what my father would do back in those days is that he would go back and forth from Chicago to Puerto Rico a lot. Because he was a young guy and I mean, he was basically making money to build a house for my grandmother in the same site where they had a wooden house. So, that house actually now belongs to my father. JJ: In Las Piedras. PC: Yes. In Las Piedras, yeah. 2 �JJ: So, that was his mission, basically to come here and to make some money and go back? [00:04:00] PC: Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I mean, as soon as you come -- I mean, it seems to me that back in those days it was actually a lot easier to find work and kinda leave and come back. Based on what my father has told me about those days where -- and since Chicago back in those days was a very industrial town, so you had a lot of factories around. So, my father was able to go ahead and just go back and forth for a while. JJ: Okay, what about your mother, what kind of work did she do? PC: My mom actually -- when my mom first came to Chicago, she was doing factory work as well by what was known back then as Comiskey Park where the [00:05:00] Chicago White Sox played. She used to work making screws and making nails. But as soon as I was born, my mom actually stopped working and she just stayed home until, I would say until the 1990s, actually like in ’96, that’s when I started college, so she felt like she should go ahead and work. JJ: And then what did she do then? PC: She took care of the elderly, so she would go to where they lived and she would cook, clean and do whatever it was that they needed. So that was known as a homemaker is what she did. JJ: Okay. And your father remained doing the same thing? PC: Yeah, my father was a factory welder for about 25 years, yeah. JJ: Okay. So, are they both in Puerto Rico now? PC: They live in Chicago as well. 3 �JJ: Oh, they’re living here now? PC: Yeah, they’re still here. JJ: Okay. Now, when was the first time that you heard about the Young Lords? PC: The first time I heard about the Young Lords was when I was at DePaul University as a student. I went to this presentation by... JJ: What were you studying there? PC: I was studying Latin American studies, just learning about the different Latin American countries and about Latinos in the United States as well. So, that’s [00:07:00] what I studied there. JJ: Okay, so you heard about him, you went to some kinda meeting you said? PC: Yeah, there was a presentation that a person by the name of Mervin Mendez, he was giving a presentation entitled “Latinos in Lincoln Park.” And that was the first time that I ever heard of the Young Lords. And I was really inspired by that, I mean, I subsequently met up with Mervin a couple of more times because I wanted to hear more about the Young Lords and what become about them, you know, because I had never heard of that. And I think what really got my attention was that [00:08:00] I knew about Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, the Black Panthers, but I had no idea that there was a Puerto Rican group that was very much patterned after the Black Panthers in that way. So, I mean that was really inspiring and just also the fact that it was a turf gang that transformed itself into a political organization just kind of -- one of the things that I kind of took from that is a lot of social change actually comes from the ground up like it’s just regular people that are kind of part of the street life and that are part of the [00:09:00] 4 �neighborhood. If you band together, you could do some great things. I mean, the Young Lords’ legacy, that’s basically something that we can still continue to this day. I mean, a lot of the same issues that the Young Lords fought back then are the same exact issues that we are fighting right now. I mean, gentrification is still there, but now we live further west on the North Side and they keep pushing people further west. And yeah, I mean, there have definitely been a lot of community initiatives. I was once a community organizer myself when I came out of college. [00:10:00] But one of the things that I found about that was that nonprofits are kind of tied to funding, and then you have to ask yourself, where is it that the comes from. And you realize that that comes from a lot of wealthy people that feel some sort of a guilt trip about what’s going on. But in terms of having a grassroots movement like that, I mean, I would love to see something like that again. People say that these are different times, but it’s kinda like that old cliché like [00:11:00] “The more things change then the more things stay the same.” So, it’s just that right now we’re just dealing with the same kinds of issues, but now we’re dealing with those for the west, you know. JJ: Now, you were fascinated not just with any group, but you were fascinated with the Black Panthers. Why so militant? PC: Because it’s a group of people that have kind of decided that they are no longer gonna just take whatever they get, and that they were gonna fight for social justice. And it’s just this whole thing of banding together to do something. JJ: But why do you feel that that that was necessary? [00:12:00] 5 �PC: Because I feel that power was not only just convincing people. Like a group like the Black Panthers is they were very confrontational when they actually needed to do that. And it is done by the very people that are being oppressed. So, I mean, that I feel was a very transformative experience for everybody, for those people that participated and even for [00:13:00] those people that just looked on or that came after, they actually leave that legacy of struggle for you to refer back to. JJ: So, did this come out of your life growing up in Chicago? Where did you grow up, what neighborhood did you grow up in? PC: I grew up in a couple of areas, but mainly Logan Square. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). What were some of the areas you grew up in? PC: Yeah, so it’s Logan Square, the West Humboldt Park area, Bucktown, Wicker Park, so, you know, maybe -- those were the areas. JJ: So grew up in Wicker Park too then. PC: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, because Wicker Park no longer exists as a Latino community today or -did you grow up when it was changing? PC: Yeah, you know, I mean, [00:14:00] we moved there back in I believe it was 1987. So, that was actually the first time that I encountered gentrification, I was 10 years old. But of course, I didn’t know that term back then, but I knew that there was a very big difference between the new residents that lived there and the older people that were there like the longtime community people. 6 �JJ: What kind of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), what do you mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: I mean, it’s just in terms of like you could definitely tell that the newer people that moved into the area were -- they had more money than the rest of us [00:15:00], you know. You would see ‘em leave for work and you would see ‘em dressed nice and they had the nice car and yeah, I mean they would build these humongous, humongous houses like right next to this old brick Chicago building, and so you knew that there was definitely a big difference between us and them, us, we were just working class folks. And by the way, my particular block was a very interesting block man, we had all kinds of people that lived in that block. We had... JJ: Which block was that, explain? PC: It’s the 1600 [00:16:00] block of Hermitage in Bucktown. Yeah, I mean, we had people from Poland, we had Mexicanos, some Puerto Ricans, we had -- man, I actually remember that we actually had a house where there were transvestite prostitutes and his pimp and all this. But then, you know, right next to those people you had like professionals and all of this, but they were just starting to come in around the late ‘80s or so. JJ: In the late ’80s? PC: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Had you heard what type of neighborhood before that, before the ‘80s? PC: Yeah, my father told me that [00:17:00] there were a lot of Puerto Ricans that actually lived there. There is a building right on the corner of Wabansia and 7 �Marshfield and there was a school across the street called Jonathan Burr School, that’s where I went to school for like the last five years of grammar school. But anyway, that particular building there, my father told me that a lot of people from Las Piedras lived in that building, which was very interesting. When my father tells me -- back in those days when my father would tell me that Puerto Ricans lived here or that Puerto Ricans lived there, I thought that he was full of it, you know, (laughs) because [00:18:00] when I go to these particular areas, there’s no Puerto Ricans to be found these days. But then that actually goes back to when I went to college, and I went to that presentation about Latinos in the Lincoln Park area. I mean, that brought up a whole conversation about the fact that Puerto Ricans lived all over Chicago at one point and that we were actually the largest Latino group in the city of Chicago. We meaning -- Puerto Ricans came, we started coming around the 1950s. [00:19:00] I mean, we may not be the longest living group in the city, but we were definitely a big group. JJ: Okay, so you grew up in Logan Square you said, and Bucktown and some of these other communities. PC: Yeah. JJ: And so, when you were growing up in Logan Square, when you say Logan Square, what streets were you... PC: Let’s see, Logan Square, I used to live on Kimball by Armitage, Hamlin and -- JJ: Fullerton? PC: -- Fullerton, and most recently, Cortland and Spaulding. Yeah. 8 �JJ: And what do you remember, what year did you [00:20:00] start remembering things? PC: Kimball... JJ: What was it like growing up there? PC: Yeah, Logan Square, we had our, you know... JJ: What type of population? PC: What type of population. I mean, there was Puerto Rican, Mexican and a little bit of African American. Yeah. JJ: And what do you remember? PC: What do I remember about Logan Square, man, it’s just... JJ: I mean, who were your friends and what (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: Yeah, well look, the thing about me is that I actually lived a very sheltered life. So, my father wouldn’t let us go out and just play with other kids. JJ: Why was that, I mean why... PC: You know, like [00:21:00] I mean, I feel like that was more of an overprotectiveness. JJ: But why were you being protected, I mean from who? PC: I was being protected from the other kids -- see, one of the things about me is -one, is that I used to wear these thick, these big thick glasses and I have always had a speech impediment. So, my father didn’t want me to talk to other kids or play with other kids because they were gonna make fun of me. And yeah, that was pretty much true. When I was in school, yeah, I would get made fun of a lot. 9 �And my brother, he didn’t have all that, but there was still this thing of [00:22:00], “I have to protect my kids,” and that’s the way we were raised. JJ: Okay, so with you, it had to do with the speech impediment -- PC: Yeah. JJ: -- and it had to do with the glasses. PC: Yeah. JJ: But your brother, you said he had to be protected too. PC: Yeah. JJ: Was there anything in the neighborhood that you had to be protected from? PC: Well, you know, they were definitely scared of gangs there. In those days, yeah, we definitely had gangs. But to be perfectly honest with you, when gangbangers would look at me, it was no big deal because I was just a nerdy kid with big glasses, so, “He’s part of the neighborhood,” you know what I mean, like I [00:23:00] wasn’t a threat. But things do go on in the street, so he was basically trying to protect us from a lot of the gang violence. And yeah, I mean, I remember one time, me and my brother were playing catch in the alley and my father was there, and we see one of the neighborhood kids man, oh, and he was one of the few Puerto Ricans that lived in the area at that time. (audio cuts out) running down the alley and then we heard this car screeching tires and then we see it and then it comes straight down, you know, just it comes [00:24:00] straight down the alley and me and my brother and my father had to scatter and just move to the side because they were trying to run the kid over. We saw things like that. We saw kids get jumped and all that kind of stuff, we saw fights. One 10 �thing that we never saw there in that particular area, but we saw later was we saw -- was that we didn’t see any shootings even though we would hear about that. But when I lived in Bucktown, we didn’t see any of that. JJ: With cars chasing [00:25:00] people and -- PC: Yeah, those kinds of things, yeah. JJ: -- fist fights and stuff like that? PC: Yeah, yeah. But what is very interesting about that is that I would actually get into fights anyway, not with gang members but with kids that would tease me. I mean, you know, we all fought. JJ: Were they Puerto Rican or were they just... PC: You know what, one of them was, yeah. It’s such a small world because it turns out and I come to find this out, I don’t know, 20 something years later that his blood uncle who lives in Florida is my uncle too, but not by blood because he [00:26:00] got married to my aunt. (laughs) So, you know, it turns out that, I mean, we’re not blood related, but we have that connection. Since it was a predominantly Mexican area at that time, yeah, I mean, I used to get into fights with Mexican kids and stuff. And it wasn’t over that, but it was just over little things that I just got tired, you know, and I said, “You know what man, I’m gonna have to fight to get this person off my back,” you know what I mean, with my thick glasses and all. And if I got my butt kicked, then I got it kicked. But what was great about that was that that person would not bother you anymore. [00:27:00] (laughs) JJ: What about the rest of your -- you said you have a brother and a sister? 11 �PC: Yeah. JJ: How was their life growing up there in Bucktown? PC: In Bucktown, well my sister, we... JJ: Why do they call it Bucktown (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: You know what, I heard something about goats, but I really don’t know (laughs) what the deal is with that. I just didn’t get into why they call it that. Yeah, I mean, I’m not really sure. But when it... JJ: It’s the area around from what street to what street? PC: You know what, generally speaking, man, I would say that it goes from -- and this is just me talking, you know what I mean, I don’t really know the official -- JJ: Boundaries, yeah. PC: -- boundaries of it. But I would say from like Armitage and like Western [00:28:00] to like North Avenue and then Ashland. But that’s a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: So, like from Ashland to Western, from Armitage to North Avenue? PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay, so that was Bucktown, okay. So, you said your brothers and sisters, what was their life like? PC: Yeah, well when it comes to my sister, I mean father lost contact with her years ago and he didn’t know where she was. So, we actually found her back in ’97, yeah. But in terms of my brother, I mean... JJ: So, are you in contact with her now? PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 12 �JJ: And what do you mean you found her? PC: Let’s see, I found her on the internet. [00:29:00] JJ: You told your father. PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: What he say? PC: Oh well, he sent for her to come so that she could visit and so that she could meet us and everything. JJ: And you’ve been in contact ever since. PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay, so your brother, what about him, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: Yeah, me and him grew up together and I think that he went through a lot of the same experiences that I went through. Yeah, I mean we basically grew up the same exact way. And he probably sees things differently than I do, meaning that he probably has his own story about things. But yeah, [00:30:00] there’s not much to say -- I mean, one of the things about him is that he was more active in terms of -- let’s see, like I really wanted to play baseball when I was a kid, but, you know, since I had the thick glasses and it was dangerous and blah, blah, blah, I couldn’t do it. But my brother, he got to play and all of that, so it was just different. So, I kinda had to live those things through him, just kinda cheer him on and just do that. JJ: So, he was on a team and... PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: A neighborhood team or -- 13 �PC: Yeah, yeah. He used to play in this park called Churchill Field which is on Damen Avenue [00:31:00] and [Bloomingdale?] I think it is. It’s right by Cortland there. Now they don’t use it as a baseball diamond anymore, now it’s a park for dogs. (laughs) Yeah, and it’s a lot nicer than back then. JJ: For the dogs (inaudible). PC: Yeah. (laughs) JJ: [They were?] against dogs. PC: I have a dog myself [and everything?]. JJ: But it’s nicer you said (inaudible). PC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a nicer... JJ: Were there any community groups at all working with the youth at all at that time or any organizations that you remember? PC: Yeah, I mean, I remember that there was BUILD, which is still there. [00:32:00] JJ: What kind of work did BUILD do? PC: As far as I know, that was what they called street intervention. So, they had people come to the schools and talk to us about the whole gang life and drugs and all that stuff, which I think is really the best way to, I don’t know, to inform kids about the whole gang culture, you know what I mean? I don’t think it’s enough to say, “Don’t join gangs.” But I think it’s also important to know why they existed in the first place and what they have become now. It's just really important to kinda draw distinctions between both. [00:33:00] Because based on what I know now, the whole gang life wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, sometimes it was something that you needed to do or that you needed to be a part of. 14 �JJ: Where did you get the knowledge and why do you feel that way? PC: Definitely when I found out about the Young Lords, that just changed my whole perception. And when I was a kid back in the 1980s, I mean, I actually -- and this was in the Humboldt Park area, north -- Monticello is where I used to live. My mom would come home from the grocery store and, she [00:34:00] had all these bags in this cart and they would all be standing right there and they would all see us and stuff, and they would actually help my mom with the groceries. So, those things kinda stay with you. JJ: Who’s they? PC: I’m not sure what -- I mean, I know that they were young kids that would just hang around and we just kind of assumed that they were a gang and that they were a crew. But I’m not sure which -- JJ: Group. PC: -- which group it was, which particular gang it was. But yeah, there was definitely fear instilled in us at home, you know, “Oh, you know, those guys are dangerous, blah, blah, blah and those guys are crazy and blah, blah, blah.” [00:35:00] And of course we would see things too, you know. But when it came to us, we were cool, we were part of the neighborhood, and we were little kids. We were also potential gang members anyway in their eyes. I know that -- my father told me that he would actually talk to them and just be cool with them, so that they would protect his car, you know. So, he would go and buy a six pack of beer and sit with them and talk to them and they said, [00:36:00] “You know what, yeah, you are fine.” But he was still afraid of it. We were still afraid of the violence and all 15 �of that. And things would definitely happen, I mean, we would see people bash people’s car windows in and stuff like that. And I remember seeing canes on the floor, canes, you now, that they would actually use and stuff like that. You definitely knew that there was an element of danger early on, yeah. JJ: And so, the gang was basically like part of living up -- and part of the neighborhood, they were connected, everybody knew them, I mean, everybody -- PC: Yeah. JJ: -- was connected one way or the other. Your father [00:37:00] would relate to them, but he didn’t want you to relate to them. PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: So, he was kind of like -- that was his way of protecting you by just kinda hanging out a little with all these are my kids and, you know. PC: Yeah. JJ: So, he could kind of relate to them, but he didn’t want you to be in that world? PC: Right, right. JJ: Is that how you see it or how did you see it? PC: I mean, yeah, that’s definitely part of it, that’s definitely part of what he was feeling, you know, that -- and then... JJ: And why do you think he understood their world better than you would understand? PC: Because I think my father wanted us to grow up and be a certain way and he didn’t want us to be like him. JJ: Oh, so he was like them -- 16 �PC: Yeah. JJ: -- in a way. He could relate to them. PC: Yeah, yeah. [00:38:00] And one of the things that was instilled in us is, “No, you guys are going to school. You guys are going to school. You guys can’t think about that. You guys -- no, not my kids, you all are not gonna go into that kinda lifestyle (inaudible).” But then he was also keeping us away from other kids that didn’t have anything to do with that. So, it was kinda like a very isolating experience. I mean, we did have friends in school, and we were allowed to kind of be with certain kids as long as my father knew their parents and [00:39:00] as long as he knew that they were okay. Then maybe we could play with them or whatever or be friends or whatever. But yeah, I mean, it was definitely tough for us to just kind of relate to what he... JJ: How did he know their parents, (inaudible) relate to their parents? PC: Let’s see, so the way that he met some of them was that when my brother played baseball, that’s how he would meet parents of kids. And that’s where he would make friends with them and just see if -- I mean, it’s just like anybody else, you might click with this person and you might not click with this other person for whatever reason. So, there was actually one [00:40:00] particular family where he's like, “You know what, those guys are cool, so you guys can hang out and play and blah, blah, blah.” But that was pretty much only one family. (laughs) And then we kind of -- we meaning the kids kinda like outgrew each other, you know, like we just had different interests after a while, so we just kinda stopped being friends I guess you could say. (laughs) Yeah. 17 �JJ: So, in school what kept you motivated in school, I mean, what... PC: Man, I don’t know what kept me motivated in school. (laughs) I really don’t man. I don’t know how I got as far as getting a bachelor’s degree, I really don’t. JJ: And you went to grammar school. PC: Yeah. JJ: Where did you go to high school? [00:41:00] PC: Lane Tech High School. JJ: Lane Tech? PC: Yeah. JJ: That’s a pretty good athletic school (inaudible). PC: I mean, it’s a pretty good academic school, yeah. JJ: Academic. PC: Yeah. JJ: What type of population and what years? PC: I went there from 1992 to 1996. And we had all kinds of students. That was a great experience for me because I got to meet all kinds of people, I mean all kinds of people, people that were from -- we had Greek people, Italian people, Syrian people, Indian people, other Latino groups like Guatemalans, Colombians, people from Africa, Ethiopia, [00:42:00] Nigeria, people from Asia. Well, you know, I just said India, but you know, people from Japan, China and people from Thailand, the Philippines. I mean, we had ‘em all. So, that was great to see that, and that was great to kind of be around all of those kind of groups because you realize how big the world is. I mean, that school was actually huge, there’s like 18 �4,000 students there. That was a good experience in that sense. But Lane Tech also had its problems though. JJ: Before we go into the problems, so it was very diverse, was it like a magnet school, how was it diverse? Was the community diverse or -- PC: Yeah, no. JJ: -- did people come [00:43:00] from all over? PC: Yeah, so people came from all over the city. What it was was that there was -they would actually pick kids that were like the top of their class and all of that. So, they would pick kids from all over Chicago, as long as you lived I believe it was north of Roosevelt Road and if you were in good academic standing and if you applied to the school, you could get into the school. So, yeah, I definitely worked my butt off the last two years of grammar school because I really wanted to get into that school and [00:44:00] I barely did, I barely got into the school. But, I mean, I was there for all four years and stuff. And that was definitely a tough experience too for different reasons. JJ: (inaudible) what sort of reasons? PC: Well, in terms of just -- I said earlier that there were about 4,000 students and that’s a huge student body. I mean, if you go inside of a classroom, it’s like 30, 40 kids sometimes. And so, the teacher couldn’t give you the proper attention all of the time and all that. And then of course there were some classes that you just didn’t want the teacher to even look at you (laughs) because you knew that [00:45:00] she -- I definitely felt like, what is it, like a small fish in a big pond 19 �there. Definitely felt like I wasn’t the smartest kid because you had some brains over there. JJ: (inaudible) you didn’t want the teacher to call on you? PC: Yeah man, when I had to read out loud especially, what a problem, what a problem, or just to ask me a question man, it was just really nerve racking, you know. Sometimes I think I would just... JJ: You laugh, I mean what were you thinking? PC: Just that sometimes you would prefer to be invisible. (laughs) When I was there, it was just like (audio cuts out) “I really don’t wanna rock the boat and I just wanna get through these four years and get outta [00:46:00] there,” you know. JJ: Yeah, okay. So, you got through the four years, now you’re going into DePaul? PC: Yeah. Well, and also, can I say something about when I was in grammar school? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PC: Yeah, yeah. Because what you were asking me about what -- JJ: Motivated? PC: -- motivated me to keep going in school too was, I think it was fifth or sixth grade, sixth grade, sixth grade we had 50 people in sixth grade at Jonathan Burr Elementary School. And we were picked by this foundation called the Polk Brothers Foundation, they have this program called the I Have a Dream Program. [00:47:00] And that particular program, they’re a nationwide program, I think it started in New York City. But it’s basically a group of very wealthy people got together and said to us, ‘If you guys get through high school, we can assist 20 �you financially through college.” So, during those years when we had a person assigned to us -- well, actually three, I think it was three, three people assigned to us to kind of make sure that we did go to college and that was there for us and all of this. So, I had that, and I don’t think a lot of kids had that. [00:48:00] You know what, it’s not that I don’t think, it’s that I know. So that is actually one of the main reasons why I got through high school and why I went through college, not only because I was promised money, but because we had people that were on us all of the time trying to get us to get better in school or they would actually take us to outings and stuff like that. We got to do some real cool things. JJ: What kinda outings? PC: We would go play basketball, we would do bowling, we would go see plays if we wanted to. If we were off from school, we would go and do like a [00:49:00] career day and we would go to a particular company, and they would talk about what they did and they had a lot of people of color there. I actually remember meeting Puerto Rican engineers, African American engineers, people that were professional. So, you know, we got to see people that looked like us that did those kinda jobs, you know, just to kind of say we’re just as smart as anybody else. I mean, that’s what I took from it. So, we got to see a lot of different things that I know that a lot of kids didn’t get to do [00:50:00] when they were growing up. And then there was definitely a struggle there between my father and the person that served as our -- JJ: Mentor? PC: -- mentor, yeah. 21 �JJ: What kinda struggle? PC: So, there were definitely a lot of clashes, like there were times when my father didn’t want me to go to this thing because, “I don’t really know him and I don’t know -- and I don’t know what’s gonna happen. And, you know, some of those kids are actually bad kids.” It was that kinda thing. And then he would call up and talk to my dad and he would try to [00:51:00] reason with my father and blah, blah, blah. And I think in the end, I feel like my father -- felt very challenged, but I think my father at that particular time -- I guess he got through my father, you know what I mean? Yeah, he didn’t like him to call, but he would still talk to him. And then my father would say things like, “Well, (Spanish),” about this, that and the other. Yeah, he is right about this, that and the other, but you would see a look on his face like, “Yeah, he's right, damn it.” (laughs) JJ: Why was your father so worried about your safety and protecting you? Did something happen to him or something that... PC: Well, first of all, I mean he definitely had a lot of things that – would happened to him, in terms of just getting into fights. When my father was young, just like any other young person, you like to go out and you like to have fun, you like to meet girls and blah, blah, blah. So, what he would do is that he would go to the neighborhood bars and hang out and dance, whatever, and whatever. So, you know, I mean, fights broke out, you know, folks get drunk, you know. JJ: At the neighborhood bar? PC: Yeah. JJ: With other Latinos? 22 �PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Folks would get drunk and blah, blah, blah and there -- and then if he was with his brother and if his brother got into a fight [00:53:00] of course my father had to go in... JJ: Was his brother in a gang or something? PC: No, no. JJ: But they were just bar fights? PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: A lot of bar fights? PC: Yeah. JJ: What area was that? PC: Cornelia and Reta over there. JJ: Oh Cornelia, yeah. PC: But... JJ: Actually, there were a few gangs in there. PC: Then... JJ: A few bar gangs (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PC: A few bar gangs? JJ: Yeah. PC: But they would actually go to Las Vegas Night Club on Armitage all the way west over there, to -- they would go to, man La Concha which I have no idea where that’s at anymore. Is it on North and California over there? JJ: (inaudible) yeah, a lot of people used to go there. 23 �PC: Habana San Juan. These are all things and names that I have heard him talk about. So, that’s where he would hang. [00:54:00] Oh, of course, he would go to the Aragon Ballroom. So, those are the kind of places where they would go to. JJ: And he would definitely get into fights. Had he ever gone to jail -- PC: Once or twice... JJ: -- do you know for a fight or a brawl or anything? PC: As far as I know, no, no. JJ: Okay, but he wouldn’t be into brawls. PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s funny because in my wife’s family and in mine, they are very similar with that kind of stuff, like, “Oh, you can’t go out.” But with me, with me and my brother, it’s kinda weird because they usually would do that with girls, girls were the ones that were highly protected in that way. [00:55:00] Something else that comes to mind too is that both of my parents... JJ: (inaudible) there was a big gang epidemic later too, maybe that could be it too. PC: I mean, yeah. JJ: So, it wasn’t just the girls, it would be the youth. PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know. What do you think? What do you think? PC: I mean, I definitely think that it’s a combination of things, it’s just not one thing. Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely there were a lot of gangs. JJ: I mean, you were there, so I’m asking you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PC: Yeah, yeah. Part of it too that both of my parents, they -- well first of all, my mom wasn’t raised by her parents. My mom was raised by her grandparents. 24 �JJ: Why was that? PC: Because my grandfather and my grandmother split up. [00:56:00] And I forget how many kids they had, but it was way too many for just one parent to take care of. So, some were, I think three -- yeah, three were given to the grandparent and I think there were two that were given to this aunt. So, they were all kinda like split up, split from each other. And then as far as my father’s concerned, his father passed away when my dad was like nine or ten. So, my father wasn’t raised by his father. You could say that my father was raised by [00:57:00] one of my uncles, which was his older brother and he has always said that he really wasn’t raised by his mom and that he used to cause a lot of trouble with his mom. Because he actually left when he was 16. So, I don’t know if he was just afraid that we were gonna turn into him. (laughs) I’m not really sure what that is, I’m not really sure. I think part of it has to do with the fact that he really didn’t -- I mean, yes my uncle raised him, but he was only four years older than my father. So, my father didn’t have a real father figure. [00:58:00] So, maybe he just didn’t know how to do it, or he -- and so he just felt, “Let me -- “ but the flip side to that is that we spent a lot of quality time with my father anyway because we would practice playing ball. I was not part of a team, but we would practice together and just kind of do exercise. That’s kind of like the -- I mean, we definitely got to spend a lot more time than I think most kids our age. That’s why we can still speak Spanish, that’s why [00:59:00] I feel like we knew things about our family because my father would sit and just tell us stories about people, people that were blood related, but we didn’t know personally because they lived in Puerto 25 �Rico, and we live here. But he would make those people come alive for us. So, when we did finally get a chance to go see these people, it felt like I had known these people all of my life. We would see pictures of them and all of that. So, to me, it was just yeah, that’s this guy and that’s this girl and there’s this person and this is what happened and this is -- so [01:00:00] I mean, because they were like that, we pretty much grew up in our house, we didn’t go out and play with the other kids and all that. And then in my house you spoke Spanish or you -- you still speak Spanish in my house. So those things are there. So, you know, I mean, it’s not all bad and it’s not all good. JJ: And it kept you out of the gang. PC: It kept me out of a gang even though to be perfectly honest with you, I really don’t think that I would have joined the gang anyway and I don’t think that they woulda wanted me anyway, so -- (laughs) because I’m not a tough guy. JJ: You were in the same neighborhood, I mean(inaudible) -- PC: Yeah. JJ: -- but you were in the same neighborhood. But it kept you out of there and it got you to DePaul. PC: Mm-hmm. JJ: Do you think that’s what kept you outta there [01:01:00] or am I making an assumption? I wanna know what you think. PC: What kept me outta the gang culture? JJ: Did your father spending quality time with you, did that contribute to keeping you out of the gang culture? 26 �PC: I mean, I would say so. It’s really hard to tell because there was no desire within me ever to be part of the gang culture. JJ: And why is that? PC: Because of the way that it was -- one was it was based on what I was told and based on what I saw. I didn’t wanna get my head bashed in, you know what I mean? (laughs) But, yeah, it’s funny because I do run into kids that grew up with me and [01:02:00] they’re not kids anymore, they’re my same age, and we talk and everything. And they say to me, “Yeah -- “ now that we’re grown it’s like one of the things that they say to me is, “Well, you know, I just wanted to be a part of something back then, and, my dad wasn’t around,” and all of this. So, that’s part of the reason why they actually felt like they needed to join because they really wanted to have -- because they wanted to know how to be men. That’s like a big reason why a lot of the kids that I grew up with [01:03:00] got into the culture like that. And some were just intimidated by the gang members, and they said, “You are gonna join the gang and that’s that, or else.” Whatever that was. So, you had those two things going on. JJ: Okay, 1982 or 1983, the Harold Washington campaign was in the Logan Square area and the Young Lords, even though they weren’t using that name were very active in your area where you live. Were you living in Logan Square at that time, 1982 and ’83? PC: Nineteen eighty-two and ’83 I was in West Humboldt Park. 27 �JJ: West Humboldt Park, okay. And also Harold Washington, there was another office in that area working very strong in the Humboldt Park area, West [01:04:00] Humboldt Park. Do you remember, how old were you at that time? PC: Nineteen eighty-two and ’83, I was four and five. JJ: Oh, you were only four and five. PC: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so you don’t recall any of that. PC: You know what, the only -- yes, I mean, the only thing that I do recall unfortunately (laughs) is that my mom who she was the only one that would vote, and she didn’t wanna vote for Washington. She wanted Jane Byrne. JJ: Okay. PC: (laughs) So, that’s the other thing I remember from that particular... JJ: A lot of Puerto Ricans went for Jane Byrne in the beginning and (inaudible). So, she was basically following the Puerto Rican culture at that time, a lot of Puerto Rican (inaudible) Jane Byrne. PC: Really, I didn’t know that. Yeah, yeah. JJ: And I think the Young Lords [01:05:00] took people to Harold Washington and other groups and [West Town Coalition?]. Okay, so did your father ever mention the Young Lords or anything like that or was that named mentioned? PC: You know, not the Young Lords. He was more familiar with Los Hijos del Diablo. JJ: Oh, Los Hijos del Diablo. PC: Los Hijos del Diablo and La Hacha Vieja. 28 �JJ: Oh, La Hacha Vieja. What did he say about La Hacha Viejas and Los Hijos del Diablo, let’s go over those groups. Both of those groups were connected in a way with the Young Lords. PC: The Young Lords? JJ: Yeah. (inaudible). PC: Still working? JJ: They’re working. PC: Okay. He would basically tell me that especially with Los Hijos del Diablo, they [01:06:00] would actually hang out at a particular bar. I’m not sure where that bar was or anything like that, but he said that you knew when they would walk into the door and all of this. And I’m like, “Why?” “Oh, because they were these big guys and blah, blah.” But he really didn’t -- that’s kinda like as far as it goes. He talks about seeing a lot of afros every once in a while and all this stuff and that he wouldn’t mess with them and that he would stay away and all of that and blah, blah, blah and that it was dangerous and that you just didn’t wanna get into it with them and blah, blah, blah. So, it was that kinda of thing. JJ: And what did he say about the La Hacha Viejas? PC: La Hacha Vieja, you know, he didn’t say too much. JJ: They were one of the first [01:07:00] gangs in Chicago and stuff like that. PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: We’re kinda finishing it up. What do you think is important in terms of this project that we’re trying to do here just telling the history of the Lincoln Park, but in 29 �general the community, the Puerto Rican community and displacement and (inaudible)? PC: Yeah, I mean... JJ: What keeps you inspired? Because I know that every time we talk about the Young Lords, you’re excited. PC: Yeah, I get excited, yeah, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). PC: Yeah, you know, I think one of the things [01:08:00] is that what (audio cuts out) what the Young Lords did, I feel that it can be done again. JJ: What is it that Young Lords did that you feel should be done again? What aspect of the Young Lords (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: Yeah, I mean for me it would be great to see a gang turn into a political organization just like back in those days. And I’m always afraid to say that it’s never gonna happen. One is because I want it to happen and two is because that’s very pessimistic to say, “Ah, you know, these are just a bunch of kids that don’t know anything.” But the fact of the matter is is that that could happen again. [01:09:00] Maybe it’s just that there are people out there -- and I know that there are plenty of people out there that just don’t know about the Young Lords, they don’t know what you guys were all about. But what really concerns me though is that we live in a very materialist culture. I mean, young people now, they’re just kind of obsessed with money, money and just kinda like the -we tend to glorify -- and I am gonna add this -- and I am gonna include myself in 30 �this age bracket, because it’s my particular age group and I’m 34 years old. When [01:10:00] the whole... JJ: Hippie? PC: I can’t say it. JJ: Hip-hop movement. PC: Yeah. When the whole hip-hop movement came about, it wasn’t about that, you know what I mean? And that was actually a form of kind of social activism. And when it started in New York City, from my understanding is that the whole gang culture kind of stopped being and they all kinda joined together [01:11:00] as well. And I would say from like the 1970s to about the 1980s there has been a claim that there were no gangs out there. So, the way that that started was kind of reminiscent of what the Young Lords were about, but it was slightly different. There is, as far as I know, there are not a lot of Latino groups out there that kinda think in terms of the reorganization of society. One of the things was that [01:12:00] Black Panthers and the Young Lords were about -- you were very anticapitalist and very much looking at socialism as a way of being. And so, a lot of groups don’t have that, I mean, a lot of activist groups don’t have that, they’re more reformer groups and all of that. Yeah, so I think that’s what’s different now in that there is a lot of people that have come into the rap world and talk [01:13:00] about the cars and talk about the gold. And they will glorify Scarface, Tony Montana and Don Corleone, the Godfather and all of this stuff. So, it’s just kind of like -- and it’s just gotten worse. I mean, it has gotten to the point where there’s so much buffoonery. And you have a lot of these rappers that are like... 31 �JJ: (inaudible) We are gonna have to finish it up. PC: Okay. You know, that are like really not saying anything and they’re very influential, but there’s no [01:14:00] consciousness with what they’re saying. But who knows, I mean, somebody might come up and do something interesting, so, you never know. JJ: Okay. END OF VIDEO FILE 32 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d7a3608d7b28661ded31b3a6b94f30e.mp4 b80a71c6514dd529b8b20980208fa6ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Primitivo Cruz vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Cruz_Primitivo Title A name given to the resource Primitivo Cruz video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cruz, Primitivo Description An account of the resource Primitivo Cruz is a Young Lord at heart who studied at DePaul University. He has researched and written several poems and papers on the Young Lords. Mr. Cruz performed several of his poems and songs at the Young Lords 40th Anniversary, celebrating the official founding of the Young Lords on September 23, 1968. Most of his work is political by nature, focusing on the Puerto Rican experience, the right to Puerto Rican self-determination, as well as the rights of new immigrants. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ee5090284814523ac0d0cf5c97cd83c.pdf fda19d8c8ffd700d0569e254113f4f23 PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Dennis  Cunningham   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  10/4/2016   Runtime:  01:16:40         Biography  and  Description   Oral  history  of  Dennis  Cunningham,  interviewed  by  Jose  “Cha-­‐Cha”  Jimenez  on  October  04,  2016  about   the  Young  Lords  in  Lincoln  Park.   Dennis  co-­‐founded  the  People’s  Law  Office  originally  located  in  Lincoln  Park,,  Chicago  at  2156   North  Halsted  Street.  These  were  movement  lawyers  who  began  working  with  the  Lawyer’s  Guild   at  the  1968  Democratic  convention  protests.  Later  they  took  on  court  cases  of  the  Panthers,  Young   Lords  and  New  Left.  In  1969,  the  People’s  Law  Offices  negotiated  for  the  Young  Lords  during  their   McCormick  Theological  Seminary  take-­‐over  and  received  $25,000  in  seed  money  after  the  Young   Lords  won  all  of  their  demands.  It  included  $650,000  for  low  income  housing  investment  and   $50,000  to  open  up  two  free  health  clinics  In  1973  Dennis  moved  to  New  York  to  work  on  the  Attica   Prison  Riot  cases..  Here  he  discusses  a  major  case  of  the  People’s  Law  Office:  the  assassination  trial   of  Chairman  Fred  Hampton  of  the  Black  Panther  Party.   �Dennis  was  born  in  Chicago  in  the  suburbs.  At  age  15  he  studied  at  the  University  of  Chicago  and   went  to  work  as  a  journalist  and  then  a  bartender  for  Second  City  where  he  met  and  married  his   actress  wife,  Mona.  By  the  age  of  27  he  considered  himself  a  drop  out  from  society  and  went  with   Filmmaker  Howard  Alk  to  the  march  on  Washington  just  to  observe.  He  then  entered  law  School  at   Loyola  and  began  working  at  city  hall  for  Mayor  Richard  J.  Daley  in  human  relations,  on  Panic   Pedaling  cases.  Black  and  White  realtors  would  frighten  White  homeowners  into  selling  by  telling   them  that  Blacks  were  moving  in  and  it  would  lower  their  property  values.  He  soon  left  because  it   was  planned  and  a  smoke  screen  with  few  convictions.  When  the  riots  occurred  after  Martin  Luther   King  was  murdered,  Dennis  recalls  going  to  the  courthouse  and  jail  at  26th  and  California  and   witnessing,  “another  world.”  He  said  that  it  was  chaotic  with  inmates  living  outside  in  the  yard  and   that  it  literally  took  him  three  days  to  locate  a  prisoner  who  he  was  trying  to  bond  out.  The  police   were  “vindictive  and  dangerous,”  he  said.   He  remembers  marching  down  Division  with  Chairman  Fred  Hampton,  in  the  Young  Lords  Manuel   Ramos  March.  Manuel  was  killed  by  an  off  duty  policeman  and  the  march  was  10,000  strong.  An   unmarked  police  car  u-­‐turned  and  drove  on  top  of  the  sidewalk,  staring  both  he  and  Fred  Hampton   down.  The  rest  of  the  oral  history  focuses  on  the  Hampton  Trial.   �Transcript DENNIS CUNNINGHAM: And I remember the Manuel Ramos March. I remember going to Church, but I don’t know which of those came first. You know? (break in audio) JOSE JIMENEZ: Your name and where you were born and then how you came to be connected to the Young Lords. DC: Okay. All right? JJ: Yeah. DC: My name is Dennis Cunningham. I come from Chicago. I was born there in 1936. I grew up more in the suburbs than the city, but I left when I was, like, 15 to go to school at the University of Chicago. They had this program to get in there early. That took me out of the suburbs altogether. Up here, too. And, you know, I got [00:01:00] out of college, and I had a job. I got a job as a journalist ’cause that was sort of what I always thought I was gonna do. But I didn’t like it much at all, you know? And I was -- I had this girlfriend. She had gone to France. I went to France. I stayed a year -- for a couple years. And I came back -- I was, like, this was -- we’re talking about the middle of the ’50s. And I was like what you would call a dropout, really, then. And I came back, and I worked on Rush Street, you know, [where I was a?] bartender. And I got involved with Second City. And at first, I was a bartender there. Then I was in the company. And my friend, Howard Alk, and I decided we should go to the March on Washington to see it, you know, for the spectacle. [So I we rode in on those trains?]. [00:02:00] I told this in one of the workshops that, you know, on 1 �the way back, he says, we get should get involved in this stuff. And I was kind of thunderstruck by that notion, you know? Because the whole point of being a dropout is you ain’t involved in anything, you know? But that really was like a revelation, you know? ’Cause I didn’t know -- by that time, I’m 27 years old. I’m married. I got a new baby. I didn’t -- and I was kind of done at the Second City. They were downsizing, and I was fringe, and there wasn’t [really?] too much future there. And so I got this idea to be a lawyer. I said if I was a lawyer, I could be involved, but I could still make a living, you know, and I could be connected and have something to give more than my body. I can’t go out there and lay in the street ’cause I got a wife and kid, I got to deal with all that. JJ: [00:03:00] [And you were married? Was it for a long time?]? DC: No, we had only been married a year. And then the baby came, and -- JJ: [What was her name?]? DC: Mona Mellis. JJ: And the baby’s name? DC: And the baby, Delia. She came in June of ’63. And then we went, August, on the March, and September, I’d gotten my way into Loyola Law School. JJ: And she’s an attorney, too? DC: Huh? JJ: She’s an attorney, too? DC: No, she’s not an attorney. She was an actress at Second City. JJ: (inaudible) __: (inaudible) 2 �DC: And -- __: [I think they’re working on the --?] DC: You know, then -- __: (inaudible) DC: -- I went to law school for four years. I went at night. I’d work in the daytime. I had -- and got another kid and another kid. And by the time I got out, you know, I wasn’t that political, even, then. I mean, I had [00:04:00] this notion, this general notion, but I wasn’t tuned in to the politics of what was going on that much. I tell you what happened. I worked for a couple of years there while I was in school. I worked for the city of Chicago. I was working for Mayor Daley, and I was in the Commission on Human Relations. And I was a human relations officer on ’54, ’55, ’56. JJ: (inaudible) [office?]. DC: Yeah. And I -- __: It’s okay. DC: You know, we would go out and investigate complaints of discrimination by real estate brokers or by hospitals and stuff like that, ’cause there was an ordinance. And we’d work up the cases as investigators and bring it to the human relations commission. They’d white wash it. But the only time they didn’t white wash it was when that was against a Black real estate agent or broker for panic [00:05:00] pedaling, you know, trying to get the white people to move out so the Black people could move in to -- block by block on the south side. It was happening like crazy. I mean, it was the main thing they were concerned about, 3 �what they call panic pedaling, because people would go to the white neighborhoods on the fringe of the ghetto, which was just expanding and expanding, and they’d say, you’d better sell now because the Black people -- two more Black people move in your block, your property value is gonna go right down, and they went for it in mass hordes, you know? And white real estate brokers would sort of get away with it, give ’em a slap on the wrist. The Black ones, they’d really -- they’d fine ’em. I think there was one guy lost his license. JJ: And Daley was doing it. DC: Daley was doing -- JJ: [He was fining them?]. DC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: [But it was his plan?]. DC: Yeah, well, the commission did it, and the commission was sort of independent, and they had [00:06:00] liberals on it, a couple. But they would always find a reason to let people off the hook, you know? And then all that Ben Willis stuff started to happen. Ben Willis was the superintendent of the schools. He started taking money outta the Black schools, and people started in -- and for a while, they were demonstrating every day. There’d be a big march every day. It started Navy Pier, I think. I can’t remember. Al Raby was the organizer of that. And I would get a sign, a lot of times, to go and just monitor the march. I remember [I did?] a whole march through Cabrini-Green, me and Dick Gregory. And he was - he would march, you know, and I got started talking to him. And, you know, he had all these comments about what’s going on. But, you know -- and then Martin 4 �Luther King came to Chicago with the campaign to end slums there. And he [00:07:00] marched in Gage Park, and he got hit with a brick, you know? JJ: [Did you march with him?]? DC: No, I wasn’t there. No, that -- I wanted to go, but they had another division in the office of the guys -- couple of Black guys they had on the staff that would go to those things. But that was in ’66, and by that time, I really had enough. [There’s our books?]. Can we stop for a sec? JJ: Sure. DC: Jeff. (break in audio) JJ: We were talking about -- DC: It was ’66. King left, you know? He had a sit-down, and Mayor Daley talked stuff. And they took the opportunity to get the hell outta there, the whole SCLC because it was -- I mean, they’d bitten of more than they could chew in Chicago. They didn’t know what they were getting into, I think, [00:08:00] in the whole -- I mean, no blame, because it came out like an eruption, the racism in those communities, and the anger. And it was astounding, you know, in that sense that it was so virulent and so nasty. JJ: So how many years were you there? DC: I was there two -- about two full years. And then I said I’m not -- you know, I can’t be a part of this no more, you know? And I walked -- JJ: [Why did you feel that way]? 5 �DC: Just because it was too much suppressing the movement, you know? And it was too hypocritical, and it was too -- JJ: [Well, how were they suppressing the movement? By whitewashing it, or?] -- DC: No, no, they’d kind of -- if they would march, the cops wouldn’t give ’em the protection. If they would [00:09:00] sit in some place -- I mean, I don’t really remember the details. It was just they couldn’t get any place, and they couldn’t get any rhythm trying to talk to people about let’s do this or let’s do that about the slums here. No, they said, “Let’s do this about the outside agitators. You know, let’s get ’em outta here.” And they did. They got the message, and they’d be beating their heads against the wall there, or worse, because the environment -the atmosphere was so hostile, you know? And because, I think, they couldn’t see a way through it, you know? They couldn’t see a strategic approach that would actually pay off, as opposed to just get ’em in deeper and deeper repression. And, I mean, I’m saying that, [00:10:00] and I really don’t know. I mean, that’s just my recollection of the sense I had of what was happening. And I don’t know if anybody’s really written that much about it, but I -- when I think about it, and I think I’d like to see if anybody has, you know? And see what people said that were on the inside of the movement. Anyway, you know, then I went to work as a clerk for a lawyer that I knew. And -- JJ: What lawyer? DC: His name was Mitchell Edelson. JJ: (inaudible) 6 �DC: Junior. And he showed me a lot of the stuff, which came in handy. And then when I graduated -- well, I graduated in the spring, and I got sworn in in the fall, like November of ’67. And -- JJ: [As a student of a university?]? DC: Loyola. [00:11:00] JJ: Loyola. That’s right. DC: Loyola, yeah, which was not the fancy skyscrapers that you see today. It was this crappy, three-story building on the same corner, there at Pearson and Wabash. And it also was not the kind of public interest stuff that has developed there since then. They’ve got a lot of stuff going on. And the school has grown, and they have international practice, and they have all these clinics, and they have all this stuff, you know? They got a lot of money. I don’t know where. But, you know, I had a sign on my house. And I had one guy, a neighbor, you know, and he had some problem buying his house. And I was -- oh my God, what am I getting myself into here, you know? And I worked with Neighborhood Commons. Remember them? [00:12:00] JJ: [Explain what you mean by Neighborhood Commons?]. DC: Richard Brown and them. JJ: [They kind?] (inaudible) -- DC: That was a -- JJ: [They were?] divide and conquer. [They were?] (inaudible) -- DC: They were -- JJ: Neighborhood Commons was against -- 7 �DC: Was against urban renewal and stuff, yeah. They were trying to hold the mixture in that territory from north of North Avenue, mainly, you know, coming up the Armitage. And they bought some buildings, and then different people could move in, different mixed families and stuff like that. And, yeah, Richard was their go-to guy. And he -- JJ: (inaudible) -- no, not (inaudible). Richard -- DC: Dick Brown. JJ: Dick Brown. DC: Yeah, yeah. And there was a couple reverends, [Neal Scheidel?]. He lived right down the street from me. I mean, we lived just right down Dayton from the Church. [00:13:00] And that was -- we were, like, on the borderline, you know? There were Black people beyond us, and there was white people short of us. But what they wanted to do -- we’d been involved in that, like, as residents of the community when they were pushing the urban renewal along North Avenue. And the Commons got involved in it, and they said, you know, they finally changed it all, and the Neighborhood Commons built a bunch of the -- or sponsored with the city. JJ: (inaudible) DC: They’d built the whole raft of townhouses and stuff there, two- or three-story apartment buildings and with mixed residencies. But it was also still a border. The ghetto wasn’t gonna go any further north, you know? And Puerto Rican people that were living in Lincoln Park were already getting squeezed out, you 8 �know, because it was already -- people were [00:14:00] -- you know, the -- what’d they call, the flight from the suburbs? JJ: (inaudible) DC: People want to live in the city. They want to live near downtown, and -- JJ: [They made an inner city suburb?]. DC: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s exactly -- JJ: To bring them back to the [burb?]. DC: -- what they did. They’d bring them back. And so then I was just there those couple of months. And then Martin Luther King was murdered. And then there were all these sweeps, those huge National Guard sweeps and shit in streets. They locked up, like, 8,000 or 9,000 people in two or three days. They had them in the yard -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: -- at the Cook County jail, just people -- just in the yard. And they didn’t know who they had. They didn’t know nothing except they had, you know, swept -done sweeps on different blocks and took everybody that they found. [00:15:00] And most of them, they would arrest them in the street, but then they would say that they had arrested them inside a building and charge ’em with burglary. So they had all these thousands of Black people -- JJ: Change the complaint? Or -- DC: They just said it from the beginning. “This is a burglary. This guy was in there.” “I wasn’t ever in that building.” “Yes, you were.” And so they had probably 3,000, 4,000 people charged with felonies coming outta that thing. And then they -- over 9 �the course of the next few months, they made deals with all of ’em. We’ll give you probation. You can get out of jail. But now you got a felony on your record. And people went for it, you know? They had to get out. They had been walking - going to the store, everything. And there was a guy from the neighborhood that had been mixed up with Neighborhood Commons, [Ed Brownell?]. [00:16:00] And had been caught in a sweep, and nobody knew where he was, and nobody could find him. And I went to the county jail, and I said -- you know, they said, well, we got him here somewhere. And I sat in that jail for two, three days waiting for them to find this guy so I could bond him out. I’m getting a red-hot introduction, you know, to how it really works. I had been in the criminal court of 26th Street one time when I was still clerking for this dude. And he had a guy -- a Black guy that worked for him, [did runs?] -- serve subpoenas and shit like that that got busted in some kind of stupid shit. And he couldn’t go to court one day, so he sent me out there, you know? And I didn’t know what the hell to do. I’m just sitting there watching. Gets all the way to the end of the call. They finally call this guy’s case. And I think -- I had talked to the prosecutor. He said, [00:17:00] “We ain’t gonna do nothing with that guy, you know? We’re gonna just postpone the case.” So I told him he could go home. So I come up front [of Judge Ryan?]. He says, “Well, where’s the defendant?” I said, “Well, Judge, I told him he could go home.” He said, “You sent him home?” I said, “Well, yeah. You’re gonna give a continuum.” He said, “I’mma lock you up back there.” (laughs) So, I mean, that’s like another world, 26th Street, you know? But I got started going there. I went a lot more after that, but then the next thing that happened was that the 10 �Lawyers Guild came to Chicago to recruit people, lawyers, to deal with the convention because they knew that everybody was gonna come and sit in and shit. And they -- so they were looking for lawyers to line them up in advance to do that. [00:18:00] Bernardine Dohrn was the delegate for the operative from the guild that came out to organize that. So I said, “I’ll do it.” And we had a committee. And I said this in the workshop, you know? Two weeks after the convention, me and Ted Stein are sitting in this office. We got 300 cases, and nobody is there anymore, you know? All the defendants are gone, and all the lawyers are gone, and we don’t, either of us, know a damn thing, you know? We’re just as green as the grass. And we’re gonna -- what are we gonna do with all these cases? And I started going to trial in a bunch of cases that they wouldn’t postpone, but they were all infractions, so you don’t get a jury. So they were quick, but what you do get to do is cross-examine the cop about the circumstances of the election. So I got all this experience. [00:19:00] I must’ve tried 20, 25 cases in -- from, you know, September -JJ: (inaudible) [with infractions, there’s no trial?]? DC: Right. It’s like a petty offense, and the most you can get is six months in jail. And the Supreme Court says if that’s the worst that can happen to you, you’re not entitled to a lawyer, you know, an appointed lawyer or anything. Different ones had lawyers. And then we became lawyers for a lot of ’em. And so that was like a training ground for me. And then, you know, right toward the end of ’68, Howard Alk, again, had -- he had met the Panthers and asked if they didn’t want 11 �to make a movie about themselves. And they said, “Yeah, we do.” And so he and -- him and Mike Gray had started just following ’em around, filming. And -JJ: [00:20:00] (inaudible) DC: Huh? JJ: Mike who? DC: Mike Gray. JJ: Oh, Mike Gray. DC: Yeah. And they said -- and then Howard -- I ran into Howard, and he says, “Man, I met the Black Panthers, you know?” He said, “They need lawyers.” I said, ”No kidding, you know?” I said. So he took me to meet ’em. I went to the office. I met Fred. I met Bobby Rush. I met some of the guys. And they said, “Yeah, that’s -- you know, we’re getting hassled all the time. Guys are getting locked up. People who we’re trying to work with in the community are getting locked up for hanging around us. We need lawyers.” So I said, “Well, I’ll help you. And I got some friends I think might be able to help. Just let me know what’s happening.” And I told the story today, too, the other -- no, it was today. JJ: (inaudible) DC: All of a sudden I get a phone call at the end of January, start of February. I get a phone call one day, [00:21:00] and it’s this big voice [on it?], says, “Mr. Cunningham?” I said, “Yeah?” “This is Judge Connely.” He says, “You represent Fred Hampton?” And I said, “Well, yeah. I guess I do.” And he said, “Well, you’ll be here at nine o’clock in the morning because you’re going to trial.” I said, “Okay.” I showed up, and we did go to trial. And it was a case of them doing a 12 �demonstration in Maywood about the swimming pool. And there were two other people arrested with him. One of them was, like, a local -- a Black guy who was a dentist or something, well-established citizen, but who had, you know, supported the protest. And they had had this march to the city council meeting in Maywood. And a few of them went inside. They wouldn’t let the rest of ’em inside, [00:22:00] so crowd got a little bit unruly outside, and they shot out a bunch of tear gas. The tear gas went inside the council chambers, and all the people were weeping. They had to can the meeting. I think it came in while Fred was speaking to them about the swimming pool. And so they charged him with mob action. And this dentist, Ivory, Dr. Ivory, he was in the case, and some other dude. And so then, when I got to the trial, it turned out Jim Montgomery was representing Dr. Ivory, who was an upstanding citizen and could pay a fee. And he was plenty experienced, so all I had to do was just kinda lay and copy him, you know? ’Cause I -- from the very start of the voir dire, I’d never been through any of it. I mean, like I say, I’d tried all these no-jury cases. [00:23:00] They’re very different things. And somehow we got through it. I just -- you know, I would literally -- I mean, you’d change the questions a little bit, but he would examine a guy, and then I would examine him. And then the public defender had the third guy, and he would just kinda lay it out. And it was a lot of stumping through it. Took a couple of days. But then in the closing arguments, I got all carried away, and I’m saying, “They got tear gas in the city council chambers. You know they gotta hold somebody responsible and make somebody the scapegoat, and that’s the scapegoat right there, and you can’t let them, blah, blah, blah.” And he was 13 �acquitted. And so that was really great, you know? And that’s --[00:24:00] and he felt good. I felt good. Everybody felt good. But the next thing I knew, a couple of months later, all of a sudden, he was on trial on that ice cream case. And I hadn’t even known about that. He hadn’t said anything to me about that. And in fact, I think there had been a -- at least one incident with the cops in between, like one of those raids on the office or some other thing, a confrontation in the street, so that there was -JJ: Well he was arrested(inaudible) DC: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yeah, but I think that was later in the year. JJ: [Was it later?]? DC: That was more -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: There -- JJ: The month between February and March. (inaudible) February 12. DC: In ’69. JJ: Yeah. DC: Yeah, okay. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Well, that was right around that time, yeah. Well, so then he had that case, too, you know? And -- JJ: (inaudible) [00:25:00] 14 �DC: But then he was in this ice cream case with this other lawyer -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: -- and it was kinda weak, you know? Yeah. JJ: (laughs) DC: She -- anyway, he went down in that case. And what happened right in the middle of the case, they realized who they were dealing with, so they brought in some senior guy, and he just went off about Fred. And then they got Fred on the witness stand. They asked him, was he a revolutionary communist? He said, “Yeah. You know it.” And did he believe in the violent overthrow -- “Yeah.” JJ: (laughs) DC: And the judge -- I knew the judge. I had this other case with him. And he told me during the trial, he’s -- “Ah, this case is horse shit. I’ll give him probation if (inaudible).” But after they sent the big dogs in there, he wound up giving him two to five. And then he went off to Menard. [00:26:00] And then we worked and worked for a couple of months and finally got him out. But the quid pro quo for getting him out was that they would have an accelerated schedule for the appeal, so we had to write the brief immediately -- I mean, usually, appeal would take a year and a half, two years. This one took three months, two months. Had a -- he said, “You get the brief in here in a couple of weeks,” and da, da, da, and boom. So he was going back to prison. He had, I think, I don’t know, 8 or 10 more days before he was -- the mandate said he had to report. And that was over the time when he was murdered. But also, during that time, I had got appendicitis, and was in the hospital, and then I was home. I couldn’t move. They cut me down 15 �the middle instead of just going in there by your hip, you know? He said, “Oh, it might [00:27:00] be your gallbladder, so we’ll just go --” you know, guy -- he’s got 12 interns that are watching him, and he’s one of these big -JJ: [Training them?]? DC: -- barrel-chested, white-haired assholes, jaw coming out to here. But I was really laid up, you know? And I was still laid out on the night he was killed. I couldn’t really -- I got up outta bed and went to the funeral. It was, like, a week later. And I had to go back and stay in bed all the way through the holidays. Or maybe not that long because we started having meetings, and they were going to court, and they started that coroner’s inquest, I think, after the first of the year. And by that time, I was back, and I was part of that. And then all that stuff happened, you know, [00:28:00] that spring of 1970, when there was all this behind-the-scenes stuff happening with Hanrahan and the FBI or the US Attorney’s office because they had a federal grand jury. And they were really trying to look into it. But they made a deal, you know? Okay, which we later found out about in a document, that the Panthers case -- the charges against the Panthers would be dismissed, and no cops would be indicted. Then they had a special prosecutor in the state system later, Barney Sears, but that was, like, another year or two before that all happened because a bunch of the cops did get indicted, but it was for, like, lying on a police report, and it was obstruction of justice [00:29:00] and nothing about the murder. JJ: And so nobody went to jail for (inaudible)? 16 �DC: No, no. The survivors of the raid were freed, and those charges were dropped. And the grand jury, instead of indicting the cops, issued this special report saying how fucked up the police procedures had been used in the raid and this and that, and everything was wrong with it, but we’re not gonna charge anybody individual ’cause it’s just, like, the system malfunctioning. If you can think of anything more insincere. JJ: [If you can kind of? How did] (inaudible)? DC: Well, we -- right in that period, we were representing most of the survivors. We had some of our pals, Jo-anne Wolfson, Warren Wolfson. They took one or two of the people. Montgomery had [Deborah?]. [00:30:00] I forget who else, but we had three or four of ’em. And then we decided we had to start a civil suit about the raid and about the killing. And we did that, but we -- again, we were so green, we really didn’t know how to do it. And we got some help from the Center for Constitutional Rights in New York. We knew those people a little bit. JJ: (inaudible) DC: You know, here’s what you gotta put in the complaint, and here’s what you gotta do. And it wasn’t only them. Kermit Coleman helped us. He was the ACLU guy. And we got the complaint filed. And I forget how quick it was, but it wasn’t too long before the judge threw it out. So now we’re in the appeals court. And the people -- again, [00:31:00] the New York people were helping us. And we got that reversed and got the complaint reinstated. In the meantime, we’re dealing with all these other Panther cases. But now him and me and a couple other guys -- Skip Andrew. You remember him? 17 �JJ: (inaudible) DC: And we were starting to go to 26th Street a lot, and we were getting other cases, and we were trying to support ourselves with the bond slips. And that sorta just went on. And then the stuff happened at Attica. And we had a big fight in the office. By that time, we had opened the office. We opened the office in August of ’69. JJ: (inaudible) DC: [00:32:00] Do what? JJ: [Go ahead and tell them about the office?]? DC: The office -- after I met Fred and Bobby, I came back -- we had started, ’cause -I need to go back. When we were the Chicago Legal Defense Committee, dealing with all the busts from the convention, is when me and Ted Stein -- and Ted says one day, “Well, I heard about these people in New York. They started a firm just to represent the movement.” I said -- it’s like another light bulb you know? And so we started having meetings. I remember him, ’cause me and him had met Jeff Haas about the -- around the Martin Luther King stuff. We had both had this same idea, you know? We’d go down to the 11th and State in the evening and help the people who had got busted during the day, you know? And they weren’t [00:33:00] giving ’em too much play, you know? I got a sign [I think?] I was -- you know, we went and found whoever was there, the lawyers that were -already knew anything. And he said, “Just go here, go there, da, da, da.” And I wound up in a stairwell at 11th and State where they pulled the desk in there, and they put the judge in there. And they started bringing the juveniles through. And 18 �it was the state’s attorney and me and the judge and cops. And they’d keep bringing these kids. And if the kids’ parents were there, he’d tell ’em to go home with the parents. If they weren’t, lock ’em up, and it didn’t matter what the hell I said, you know? I was like a potted plant in here. And they took a break at some point, and I started wandering around. I went into a court room, and there he was, and he was standing up in a real court room. He was standing up at the podium, and he was waving his arms and hollering at the judge. I said, [00:34:00] “Whoa,” you know? So then when this idea of having an office, that’s the first guy I thought of. So we started having these meetings, and that’s when I met Fred and Bobby. JJ: You and Ted Stein? DC: Me, Ted, Jeff -- JJ: Well, I mean, you had [Ted with you?]. DC: Yeah, yeah. And I don’t remember -- he might not’ve been at the first couple of meetings. And Skip Andrew and Don Stang. I don’t think there was anybody else. Kadish was involved in it, but that was later. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Later -- you know, months later on. And then after I met Fred and Bobby and they said, “We need lawyers,” I went back the next meeting. I said, “Well, if we do go ahead and start an office, we get the Black Panther party as our clients, you know?” And he said, “All right. Let’s go.” [00:35:00] So by -- pretty much by January, we had decided we would do it. And we started seeing what we can -what we were gonna do, how we were gonna work it out. But in the meantime, 19 �we started representing the Panthers. And they were getting busted, and I remember almost the first case, beside that one where the judge called me up, was two guys that they had just met. And they were just starting to talk to him about the Panthers, and they got busted on some bullshit, and they were locked up. And two, three people went to work to try and get ’em out, you know, and work on their cases and stuff. And we’re like, okay. How we were ever gonna get paid, we just -- in some miraculous way, we -- all those guys -- and it was all guys at that point -- all white guys. One way or another [00:36:00] -- I mean, two or three were working -- he was working for legal aid. They were working in some program, Skip and Don, at -- I think at Northwestern University. But they were lawyers. And somehow, we kept tabling the issue of how we were gonna support ourselves. We got the store in the summer and got it fixed up, put in a concrete gun emplacement. JJ: [When was this]? DC: The store, I think we opened it in August. JJ: [When was it?]? DC: Sixty-nine -- 2156 North Halsted, right on the corner of Webster, right next to Glascott’s Bar, there. JJ: And it was in October of ’69 or ’68? DC: August, we opened it, ’69. JJ: Sixty-nine. DC: Sixty-nine. JJ: And then -- 20 �DC: I mean, Fred was already -- JJ: (inaudible) before that -- DC: -- convicted -- no, we were -- JJ: [You were?] meeting there -- DC: Yeah, we were meeting, and [00:37:00] we were gonna do it. JJ: You were meeting [in private?]. DC: Yeah, yeah. And we were going to court. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Maybe. JJ: Just kinda takes -- DC: ’Cause your stuff started to come in about that time, right? JJ: [About the same time, yeah?]. DC: And we didn’t have a problem thinking, well, this is more of the same, you know? We were just gonna deal with it. I don’t know, you know? Looking back from different perspectives of the time since then, it really was extraordinary that it all came together the way it did and that we launched ourselves into that without having any idea of how we were gonna support ourselves, you know? Just some kind of way. I had -- after the King riots, through the Neighborhood Commons, [then Meister Brau?] come -- he came around, said, “Gee, [00:38:00], you know, we like to be felt like we’re part of the community. What can we do to help you folks?” They said, “Well, we got this lawyer. He’s helping us, and don’t have any income, so why don’t you give him a stipend?” So he came to me and said, “Well, how much should we tell ’em to give you?” I’m like, what do I need, or what do I 21 �believe they’ll agree to, you know? So I went low, like a fool. But at least it was a little something, you know? And me and Mona had bought this house on Dayton Street. And the mortgage was about half of it. It was $300 a month I was getting, and the mortgage, I think, was $147 a month. Phew. But then -- so we went through all that stuff, and we went through the appeal [00:39:00] and the civil case about Fred. And we were doing more criminal work. And then, when the Attica stuff happened, before it happened, we had gone to a -- all of us or many of us had been at a Lawyers Guild convention in Boulder, Colorado, which was an occasion where there was a big struggle in the organization about letting law students become members or letting legal workers become members. There had been -- at the previous convention, there was a struggle about law students, and the youth outvoted the older people, who said, “Oh, you can’t do that, you know? You’ll invalidate all our credibility as a bar association. Can’t have students be members.” So now, this time, it was about having legal workers, and never mind that bar association shit. [00:40:00] We’re a political organization, and we won that, too. And so it was like a time -- there was a lot of stuff on the rise. It was on the rise in Chicago. And then when the Attica stuff started to happen, I mean, we had been in Stateville. We had a case there. I think the Panthers -- some Panthers were involved in the shootout with cops in Carbondale. JJ: [Right?]. DC: And Jeff and Mike and Flint all went down there and had a trial and won. And I’m pretty sure that was before -- that was in ’70, but I’m not -- I can’t exactly 22 �remember. Could’ve been later. But anyway, got in this big argument about whether we could afford or whether we had any kinda where-with-all to try to send some people to Attica to help with what was ever gonna happen, ’cause it was -- they were still -- it was before the assault, [00:41:00] the [retake?]. And Jeff -- I lost the argument ’cause I said some stupid shit and some sexist shit. But -- I lost that -- I won the argument, we’ll go, but you can’t go. Somebody else gonna go. So he went. But then we became really involved in that. By the time -- by Christmastime, I was up there for two, three weeks at a time, going to prison every day, meeting all these guys, all the brothers, and waiting to see what was gonna happen, what the state was gonna do in the aftermath of the rebellion. And what they finally did, by the end of ’72, was indict 62 brothers -- or -- yeah. [00:42:00] And there was 42 indictments, 1,400 felony counts, half of which were life sentences for kidnapping and stuff for taking the hostages. So now, that was a really big involvement, commitment. And I was going back and forth, spending time up there, come back to Chicago, and they were going through it. And that’s probably when the appeal in the Hampton case was finished, and it was reinstated. They started to litigate that. And, you know, we had some -- had [these scenes?] in Buffalo. In the Erie County Jail, they brought -- they indicted prisoners there. And we had -- you know, they did different stuff. We had actions in the federal court. We had lawyers from all over. There were [00:43:00] a bunch of lawyers from Detroit. There were lawyers from Cleveland. There were lawyers from New York City. There were some lawyers from Virginia. And at some point after the brothers were indicted, the judge -- they had a special judge 23 �to handle those cases. And he said, “Well, I think every one of these defendants needs his own lawyer.” So now we had to recruit 60 lawyers and get ’em to do this case. And there were a couple of lawyers in Buffalo that were doing it, and that was it. So we did. And, I mean, that was a huge project, political project. I finally wound up going up there to live in ’73. I lived up there for a couple of years. But during that time, then, it all came out that they were totally manipulating the investigation. They were indicting only -- they didn’t indict any cops, even though they had all this cold-blooded murder that had gone on in the yard, and including [00:44:00] -- they killed 10 of -- 9 of their own, the hostages. They just shot ’em up. And so then the stuff kinda died down behind the scandal, and there was an investigation of the investigation, and there was an investigation of that investigation, and there was a lot of stuff. And so I went back to Chicago. And at that point, they had been doing depositions and going through, Flint and Jeff, mainly, the pretrial stuff for the Hampton case on the remand after the appeal. And we’re fighting the judge to get him to tell them to give us documents. And the Church committee had started, and so they were getting documents and bringing out [00:45:00] this stuff. And we finally had the contact with the guy who was working on the Church committee staff. And we were getting a trickle of documents. And so we were -- they were trading documents, okay? (break in audio) 24 �DC: Time the Attica event was in September of ’71, and we already had cases with two guys. And a lot of that -- the stuff -- I mean, you already had the Church, right? JJ: Yeah, we had the Church back then. DC: You had the Church still in ’69, or was it -- JJ: Yeah, ’69. DC: -- in ’70? In ’69 you had the Church. JJ: Then they flooded the neighborhood with drugs, (inaudible) but they did that [intentionally?]. DC: Yeah. Yeah, well, we’re thinking that they could -- they had a vulnerable prey. JJ: They might, because people were (inaudible) instead of correcting the situation like they used to, [00:46:00] let it (inaudible) and they would put ’em in (inaudible) I mean, the people in the neighborhood knew that. DC: But there was -- gentrification was going on, right? People were getting displaced big time, pushed outta Lincoln Park. JJ: It was unstable, the whole neighborhood, because, you know, you’re talking about Rush Street, and that’s where we started as a community. That’s Chicago and State. That was Lincoln Park, before and then in the early ’50s, we went to Lincoln Park. And by the time the people (inaudible) with all the different groups came, it was towards the tail end of the community. (inaudible). DC: Of -- right, of the displacement. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yeah, yeah. And they all were moving to West Town. 25 �JJ: So -- DC: So then -- well, I mean, I don’t -- I remember, like I said, the -- JJ: (inaudible) that you remember -- DC: Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. I hadn’t remembered it until you mentioned it the [00:47:00] other day. But yeah, that was a big deal. That was terrific, you know? And that was dealing with people who were potential allies, right? They were sympathetic, and they -- same thing with the takeover of the Church, right? There was not that much resistance. JJ: No, no, Reverend Gaskin was with us. He was with us. The congregation (inaudible) DC: Uh-huh. JJ: But then they tried to blame it on us, on the Young Lords. At least that was insinuated [by them?]. DC: Yeah, yeah. And when was Manuel killed? JJ: It was just before the (inaudible), May 4. DC: In September of ’70? JJ: May 4, ’69. DC: Of ’69? It was way in ’69? Oh, yeah, well, it had to be, because I remember -- I remember on a march. I was with Fred. And we were staying -- [00:48:00] I remember we were staying -- JJ: Oh, Fred was in the march? Okay, [I didn’t know when Fred was?]. 26 �DC: No, he was there. He was in the march. I was with him. It was some other people. And at some point, I think it was going west on Division Street. I think it was Division Street. Could’ve been North Avenue, maybe. JJ: I went to the march that day, and (inaudible) DC: But going west on Division, right? JJ: It was. DC: And we had kinda dropped off the march, and we were on a side street, just 50 feet from the corner. I don’t know why. We were talking about something or something. And the end of the march, and here comes the Bureau car, right? And they turned around. They made a left turn right onto the street in front of where we were standing on the parkway. And a cop had the window open. You know, it was plainclothes. And Fred looks down [00:49:00] at the guy. And he’s just kinda crawling by. And he says, “Mm, gang intelligence.” He says, “I can’t wait till the guerrilla warfare starts.” I says, “Holy shit. What the fuck?” You know, oh, that came back to me so many times. That’s a whole, enormous hidden subject, especially in an event like this. You know, it was the -- I don’t want to call it the dark side, but the hyper-active side, that more extreme side, of the Panthers’ operations, in those days, was the urge to provoke them, to challenge the cops. JJ: [War on gangs?]. DC: [00:50:00] Yeah. JJ: [War on gangs?]. 27 �DC: Yeah. And ’cause Hanrahan had gotten elected in ’68 on the war on gangs, and he was talking about the P. Stones and them, and you guys. And that’s how he got that group, [Gloves?] and them, assigned to his office, ’cause they had used to have -- they always had a police detail in the state’s attorney’s office, but they were old guys, fat guys that were near retirement, and they would go out, serve subpoenas, you know, or bring a witness to court. They didn’t do shit. And all of a sudden, he’s got all these red-hot, nasty, younger cops, [there were?] 14 cops in the raiding party, I think. And they were not old, fat cops, you know. They were young, like Gloves, [00:51:00] not green. Very experienced from kicking ass in the neighborhoods, in the minority neighborhoods. And those were the guys that he sent on the raids. Well, anyway, by ’75, we’re -- the Church committee is going. We’re going on the Hampton stuff and the discovery. They’re coming in saying, “We got no more documents.” We had this one US attorney who had kinda a conscience. He got kicked off the case around then, but before that the whole thing had come out about O’Neal being in -- the spy. And we told ’em, “Okay, give us O’Neal’s deposition.” [00:52:00] And they said, “All right, but it’s gonna be secret, you know? So you show up at the airport on such-and-such morning, and you’ll go with us, and we’ll go to where O’Neal is, and you can take his deposition and then come back.” So we did. Me, him, Flint, and [Bill Bender?], this guy from the CCR. And we went. And that was still this conscience guy in the US attorney’s office, was the only one they had there. We went to Detroit. We went to the federal building there. We got in a room. And we sat him down, started questioning him, questioned him all day. And this guy 28 �just let us. And he really -- he told us whatever we asked of him, you know? And one of the things he told us was, you know, the pretext for the raid was, oh, they’ve got illegal weapons in there, in the apartment, and that was what was in the search warrant, that they [00:53:00] pretended to be going to serve. And so I asked ’em, you know, we’ve been dealing with the FBI all this time, and you always go and meet your guy and you tell him what’s going on with the Panthers, and he questions you and you give him information about whatever you’re asking about, about whatever they’re doing. And he -- O’Neal was right in the middle of the chapter. You know, he was Fred’s bodyguard for a while. JJ: He came to(inaudible) at Church, [helped to?] train the Young Lords in security, so he would come and -- DC: He was very enterprising as an agent, you know? And as a Panther. And he said they never gave a shit about the guns, illegal, legal, whatever. But now they got this search warrant, says they got illegal weapons in the apartment, so now we got a pretext to go and raid it. Anyway, that had come at such a shock, that he was [00:54:00] an agent. And then we understood why the [Harold?] and [Truelock?] -- remember Truelock? Did you know him? JJ: I remember Truelock DC: They were from the Panthers. He was somebody Fred had met in jail that came out and joined up. And when they heard the cops coming up the stairs, they woke up and ran to the back to try to get Fred up to get ready for what was gonna happen. They couldn’t wake him. They couldn’t wake him, ’cause he was drugged. And so then all that stuff had happened, and we had this case, and 29 �now we’re dealing with the Church committee and trading documents. And this guy gave us some documents, including the floor plan, and another one about -JJ: [So they gave you that?]? DC: [00:55:00] No, the US attorney gave it to us. JJ: (inaudible) DC: You know, ’cause -- JJ: They had to give it to you. DC: Yeah, but they were supposed to turn over everything, and we had these comprehensive discovery requests, and they would just dole out a little bit, a little bit to make us try and satisfy us. But the more we got, the more we wanted, you know? And you could tell from the documents that there was more. You could tell from serial numbers and all that kinda stuff. And plus, we were getting information from this guy that worked for the Church committee, and we were giving him our stuff. And we made this one motion -- me and Flint worked out this long motion where we accused the judge of pretending that he didn’t think there were any documents, even though there’d been all these indications that we listed there were more. And he still denies it. [00:56:00] “You’ve had wonderful cooperation. You’ve had all these documents.” By that time, we did have several hundred pages, but nothing that said anything about COINTELPRO, which -- they were only -- had really only begun to really out it, you know, after they started -- ’cause the Church committee couldn’t get what they wanted, you know? JJ: And then -- 30 �DC: So -- okay. (inaudible) so by the time the trial -- the trial started in January ’76, they started picking the jury. And we had maybe, I think, a generous estimate -- I don’t really remember exactly, but maybe a thousand pages of FBI documents about the Panthers. And they were mostly -- almost all of ’em [00:57:00] were the kind of documents that they prepared to turn over in cases, you know? Later, we found when you read the real documents, then you compare it with the -what they call the 302, which is the form that they use for a statement about a police report, like, that they’re gonna turn over to the defense. And there’s all kind of variations, you know? I mean, they would just clean stuff up and hide stuff. But he insisted that the trial had to start, the judge, and we started. We started picking the jury. And in January -- we were still picking it in February. And all of a sudden in February, I get a call. Well, they’re gonna start the shit in Buffalo again. They’re gonna start up with these hearings and those indictments, even though there’d been all this scandal. So I had to leave and go back. And I was gone for three or four months. By the time I came back, you know, we were full in the middle of the trial. [00:58:00] And right about the time I came back, or even just before -- right -- no, the time I came back, they had this main agent on the witness stand who had been the one who ran O’Neal as his control, and who he would always meet with and tell him stuff and stuff, and who he gave the floor plan to, and who had given the floor plan to the cops, because they were saying you gotta raid the Panthers because they got all these illegal guns in there, which, in fact, when they -- JJ: [Who was saying that?]? 31 �DC: The FBI was saying that to the cops. JJ: (inaudible) they had the -- DC: Because, yeah, yeah, ’cause they were watching the whole time. I mean, and they sent those -- the fake letters to Jeff Ford, trying to make him think the Panthers were gonna -- out to get him, and that he should strike first. I mean, it was a bunch of stuff had happened, but it was sub rosa, you know? It was them doing [00:59:00] their thing. And in the trial, then, they were cross-examining this agent, Mitchell. And he referred to something that -- and we said, “Well, is that written up in a document?” And, he said, “Well, it should be, but I don’t know.” I said, “Well, why don’t you find that document?” And the judge said, “Yeah, you should find that document.” And Mitchell was on the stand for about a week, a week and a half, you know? End of the day, every day, we’d say, “Did you find the document?” “No, still looking.” And he was done with his testimony, was gonna leave the witness stand and be excused. And so Jeff and Montgomery, I think, [01:00:00] who was in the trial off and on, said, “Well, what about this document? Before he’s excused as a witness, we gotta--” he said, “Yeah, well, I did find it, you know? I found --” Go, “Okay, well, where’d you find it?” Da, da, da, da. And then he says, “Well, it was in a file about one of the Panthers named so-and-so, Lincoln.” You had a file about a Panther named Lincoln? Did you have a file about a Panther named Fred Hampton? “Well, you know --” And then everybody started arguing, and all the lawyers are shouting at each other, you know? And the judge finally bangs the gavel, and he says, “We’re gonna strike this out.” He says, “You just bring all these files up here tomorrow morning, and 32 �we’ll get to the bottom of this and make sure that they got everything.” So he came to court the next day. I’m just coming to watch, you know? And here come these [01:01:00] interns, whoever they were, with, like, shopping carts, three or four shopping carts, piled high with these files. JJ: The documents. DC: Files, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) documents. DC: Yeah, but COINTELPRO files. They had a file on every member of the Panthers. I mean, there was -- in the end, it was, like, 250,000 page of documents. A lot of them were total duplicates, you know? They’d write the same memo and put it in 12 files, you know, of 12 different Panthers. They had all -- collateral, other files. __: (inaudible) DC: Okay. I’ll be here. __: (inaudible)? JJ: [What’d he say?]? DC: Cubs are up 2 to nothing. JJ: Oh, yeah. DC: (laughs) __: [First inning, two runs?]. DC: Oh! JJ: [It’s permanent?]. __: Huh? JJ: It’s permanent in the video. 33 �__: In the video? (laughter) DC: Yeah, right? __: We’ll remember this day [01:02:00] [if they win?]. DC: Let’s hope it goes okay. JJ: Yeah. __: I’m gonna go to the bathroom, and -- JJ: Yeah, we’re almost done. __: -- [come back?]. DC: Okay. We’re almost through, so come back, and we’ll -- __: (inaudible) kick you outta here, but -- DC: Okay. JJ: Okay. (inaudible) DC: So he says he -- they come in with all these documents. He says, “Well, what are those?” He says, “Well, these are files on the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther party.” “Well, you better turn ’em over.” And we said, “Judge, we gotta stop the case here and let us read these files.” I mean, in the first day there was, like, 100,000 pages. Oh, no, we’re not stopping the trial. He told the jury, “Blame me that there’s a problem with these documents. It’s my fault.” JJ: Which judge was this? DC: Judge Perry. JJ: Judge Perry. 34 �DC: Judge Joe Sam Perry, a man from Alabama who had moved up here and got a job as a lawyer and been made a judge, a federal judge, [01:03:00] and he’d been a judge a long time. He was old and cranky and forgetful and, you know, although he’d been good to me a couple of times in some weird way. One time -oh, I won’t even tell that. JJ: (laughs) DC: Anyway, you know, so then he made the trial keep going, and we’re reading. They turned over copies of the documents, and we’re reading them at night and then using ’em to cross-examine the witnesses and the -- and like I say, in the end, it was something like, yeah, a round number was -- concluded it was 250,000 pages of files that they had that they said that they didn’t have and that these lawyers from Washington had stood up and swore didn’t exist. Judge says, “Blame me. I’m not gonna be bothered with that.” So the trial went on for another year [01:04:00] after that, after which the jury indicated they were pretty well hung, and so the judge dismissed the case. You know, he said, “Well, there was never enough evidence here to even go to the jury. We’ll throw it out.” Which was a boon to us because it made the standard really low on appeal, that just to show there was evidence, you know? But he had held Jeff and Flint in contempt a couple of times, and we were appealing that, and we were appealing the hiding of the documents, and we were appealing everything we could think of. I mean, me and Flint spent six months writing a brief, you know? It was that thick. And we got the right panel, and we got a reversal, a strong reversal. And then we got -- and I was back and forth. Finally, they threw everything out at Attica 35 �[01:05:00], so I was done for then. We had a civil suit we had started, but we weren’t directly involved in that. Michael and I had been up there in criminal cases a lot, and like I said, those two -- couple of two years, I stayed up there. And so then it was time to appeal the Hampton case. And we wrote this brief. And we had -- he had -- the judge assessed, like, $100,000 in costs against us and set $100,000 appeal bond. And they suspended that, court of appeals. And then we argued it, finally, in ’79. And the trial finished in June of ’77. I think it was in summer of ’79 we finally [01:06:00] argued the case. One of the judges had been an FBI agent, and he was a leading member of the society of exagents. JJ: (laughs) DC: And left it off his resume in the court. You couldn’t find it out. We only found it out -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: Judge Wilbur Pell. And in the government brief, US government brief, the guy had written something to the effect that said, these charges against these officers are insolent. They’re outrageous. You shouldn’t be allowed to come in a court and say things like that about sworn peace officers. So we put in the brief -- I put in the brief that there was this fascist-minded -- fascist-minded approach to the -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: -- prosecution [01:07:00] or to the government defense of the case, that it couldn’t be allowed to be heard because the accusations were so scandalous. And Jeff and Flint both argued for a while, and the government argued. And at 36 �the end of the government’s argument, the guy said, you know, “They called me a fascist in their brief. I’ve never been insulted like that before the judge in my whole” -- and Judge Pell turns around -- and he goes to sit down. And he turns around. I’m gonna get up to give the rebuttal argument. He says, “What about that, Mr. Cunningham? If we decide against you, are we fascists, too?” JJ: (laughs) DC: And I go, “No, judge, not exactly, but --” and I tried. Oh, I was so nonplussed. I didn’t know -- you know, it’s one of those times you think, oh, if only I’d thought of the right stuff to say, I’d’ve burned his ass up, but I gave ground, you know? Jeff listened to it when he was writing the book, and he said, [01:08:00] “It doesn’t sound as bad as you think,” you know? But it’s -- I still -- it’s something that mortified me afterwards when I realized I hadn’t just said yes, you know? You would be because that’s a fascist idea, that you can’t go to court when the cops abuse your rights. And if you said that that was okay, then you’d be subscribing to that. But that would’ve been simple enough if it had only occurred to me, you know? That’s always what happens. JJ: (inaudible) they’d challenge the thing about not having representation on the jury. DC: Yes. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yes, we did that in the Days of Rage case. JJ: (inaudible) DC: That it was mostly -- it wasn’t so much the jury as the grand jury. And they proved that there hadn’t been any Black people on a grand jury for years. 37 �JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yeah, there were three or four cases, [01:09:00] including -- you remember the case of Brian Flanagan, that was accused of messing up Elrod, the city attorney, who chased him down the street and dove to try and tackle him and rammed his head into a wall and was crippled for the rest of his life based on that, but they tried to hang it all on Brian. And Warren, and it was Jeff, I think, and Warren Wolfson represent him, got an acquittal. And then Brian goes out and says, “Oh, we fucked ’em up, man. We got out. I was guilty as shit,” and on and on. You know, whoa, buddy. (inaudible) Come on, dude, you know? Who do you think you’re dealing with? Which was the same kinda feeling -- I mean, you had that feeling about a lot of stuff that happened, frankly, especially me, ’cause I was older. I had these kids. I thought [01:10:00] you know, it’s too dangerous. These cops are too vindictive, you know? And they hate it. And that had been shown in the different raids. You know that picture of the door of their office with shotgun holes in it? And that time -- the one time they raided the office, and somebody was talking about that yesterday. JJ: (inaudible)I have a picture. DC: And pissed in the cereal that was for the breakfast program and set fire to it one time. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Ugh. I mean, you know, not that that kind of racism in cops doesn’t still exist and get promoted by their work as cops, but there, they had an excuse against the Panthers and you guys [01:11:00] to insist on it as part of the cop philosophy. 38 �And then, you know, when Gilhooly and Rappaport were killed, and Jake Winters was killed, that was all the motivation they needed, you know? As much as it was instigated by the FBI and enabled by the FBI with the floor plan and the -and drugging Fred and all the stuff that O’Neal had done -JJ: Do you remember anything about Reverend Jackson’s case at all? Was that mentioned? DC: I remember -- I only remember -- JJ: I don’t know what happened -- DC: I don’t, either. And I don’t think anything ever really did. JJ: Nobody (inaudible) DC: They never knew -- whatever they knew [01:12:00] they kept to themselves. JJ: (inaudible) and they lost the file -- DC: Was that -- JJ: -- at Garrett seminary. DC: Yeah? JJ: [The files there -- they lost ’em?]. And that was recent, a couple of years ago. DC: That probably -- JJ: And one of the professors from the university -- and he had set up the appointment and everything. DC: And they -- JJ: (inaudible) we have a file. When they went there, there were no files. DC: Wow. JJ: At the Garrett -- 39 �DC: They would still have agents watching for (inaudible)? The file might’ve been gone for a long time. JJ: Yeah, right. DC: You know? JJ: They just didn’t -- DC: Going back to the time when it was -- all that stuff was more active, you know? JJ: Right, right. DC: You never know. JJ: But we had (inaudible) family (inaudible) investigated, they opened all the files where the police had investigated us. (laughs) DC: Yeah. Yeah, well, it was that kind of thing. They could say, well, it was probably them, you know? JJ: But we opened up the Church -- that was the first time we let ’em come in [01:13:00] and look at the files and everything. DC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That was really an unbelievable mystery, an unbelievable trauma, that that happened to those people. And you could see it coming from a lot of different places, possibly, you know? Just no way to really understand it. JJ: Right. Well, they took advantage of anything. They took advantage of the Young Lords that were just coming from a gang into a political movement, and they took advantage of that community. DC: Well, do you remember the date they were killed? JJ: The date was September 29. Of Reverend Johnson? DC: Yeah. 40 �JJ: September 29. It was only two months before Fred Hampton. Two months before Fred Hampton. And then there was also other things going on, [lynching?] (inaudible). DC: Yes. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yeah, there was. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DC: Yeah, yeah. [01:14:00] And they had that attack in LA right after Fred was killed. And the whole community came out then and made them stop. Somebody said that yesterday, one of those things that they had heard -- they had learned at some point afterwards that Gates had ordered a tank. The cops had a tank. They were gonna bring the tank down there ’cause Geronimo had made them fortify the office. They had all these sandbags inside, you know? So they were really kind of safe in here. Phew. But then that’s the same kind of thing, is the level of hostility on the part of the cops, that they would bring a tank, let alone that they would make the attack at 4:00 in the morning, just like they did in Chicago. JJ: Any final thoughts? DC: The final word? My final thought is, you know, [01:15:00] -- we -- when the Hampton case was remanded by the court of appeals, it went to the Supreme Court, then too. They tried to get it in the Supreme Court. And the appeals court had awarded us fees for winning the appeal, but the Supreme Court said, oh, no, they didn’t win anything. All they did was go back to square one, no fees. And 41 �they did it without hearing arguments or briefs or anything. They just said on the face of it, you can’t have this money. Thurgood Marshall dissented and said, no, we should at least have this question briefed and have them come and argue and have it dealt with as a real case. But the others all voted against him. And again, you know, ’cause that Judge [01:16:00] Pell had written this really vituperative dissent in the appeal, and now, Judge Lewis Powell on the Supreme Court wrote the same kind of appeal -- yeah, we can go. JJ: [Sure?]. DC: And that was -- So I say that to say, and finish up on that note, that the hostility was in the courts as well. It wasn’t so pervasive, but it was real. [We’re getting?] -- JJ: Is that it? DC: Yeah. JJ: Thank you. DC: I mean, you know, I’ll think about it. I’ll send you another line. All right? END OF VIDEO FILE 42 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b88019b589ea3605e77e9d46f4da055f.mp4 8ed129e7e11525731983ff463e3f64ad Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Dennis Cunningham vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Historia oral de Dennis Cunningham, entrevistado por José 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 23/10/2016 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Cunningham_Dennis Title A name given to the resource Dennis Cunningham video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cunningham, Dennis Description An account of the resource Oral history of Dennis Cunningham, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez on 10/23/2016 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives